Sniper Country Duty Roster

October 2007

Bobby, thanks for the update. You guys always do a GREAT job running the matches. Wish I could have made this one. I always enjoy going up there and shooting.

SFC Pete Carpentier JR
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 01:54:19 (ZULU)

The link (my name) is to a non-public Picasa web page with photos of my M40. I no longer own this rifle, but I have seen these photos posted on two other tactical rifle sites, so they are already out there on the net.

These are photos of a late rifle (1968-9?), with the rounded corners on the Redfield base. The SN was just outside the known USMC SN range. I am not claiming that it was a USMC rifle, only that it has the same features. These photos may be helpful if anyone is trying to build a clone on their own. They show the clip slot, muzzle, location of US and SN markings, correct Redfield scope, stock, and parkerizing color.

When I purchased it, the rifle had a rubber butt pad, Harris bi-pod and UM QD sling swivel mounts. These appear to be the "after-market" alterations. One expert thought he knew the origins/agency source of the rifle by the add-ons. I have no idea. Again, I don't know the source of the rifle after Remington. But the photos illustrate some of the features that people have tired to duplicate in their copies, so they might be helpful to someone. This rifle is contemporary with VN era USMC rifles.

The webmaster link on the photo page did not work for me, so if anyone wants to copy these for the SC photo album, feel free.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 02:39:06 (ZULU)

Joe,

Please let me know how the epoxy workbench surface works out. As for your previous workbench selling the house for ya, I've heard of that happening several times. One guy had pics of his reloading bench with his big blue press with all the bells and whistles on it on his real estate listing, and the buyer said that was what sold him. His wife liked the house, he just wanted the bench and loading setup.

As for the shooting bench, I'd considered building one out of 3 concrete slabs. My favorite shooting spot, in our north pasture is rocky as hell, so I figured I could drill the rock, drive some rebar, and make a bench/picnic table that wouldn't be stolen by the trespassers from the public lake, chewed by the horses, or knocked over by cattle rubbing on it.PLUS, being as it's nearly solid rock right there, it's nearly chigger free.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 07:41:27 (ZULU)

Catman, man the crap you have to go through makes me wnat to bring back Medeval Justice.

You going to Shot Show this year? Maybe dinner?

Bobbie, made the offer through Mike D to give some slings to event. Guess you did not get message. I make it here again for next match.

Jim R., you ever work for the Saudis? If so you mind answering some questions?

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 14:35:35 (ZULU)

UnDudeski...

Not this year.

I expect the state of Connecticut to be on fire about the time of the Shot Show... and I'm gonna be the arsonist.

I'm going to be filing federal R.I.C.O. charges against a sitting judge - Double HA!! as Pat (HA!) would say. I already have the evidence and transcripts.

It probably won't get prosecuted, but the little shit has some mud coming... A lawyer told me not to file complaints against "big" lawyers or BIG law firms, etc, cuz they will get even with you, but they already did that... so at this point, there's nothing they can do to me anymore. Jase' lost two years of his education, and I lost two years of Jase', and they can't fix that. So like they say, "From this point on, the rest are free." I can file all the charges I want against the bunch from the first trial - there is nothing they can do, cuz by the time the charges are filed, Jase' will be 16, and he files in a different judicial district.

So by the time of the Shot Show... I'll be the one hiding out in the Everglades in the witness protection program :)))))))))))))))))

But next year is a definite, and the beer (and Rum) are on me and the Rat ;) I'll have Bravo as a body guard ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 14:59:23 (ZULU)

Mike,

No, never worked for them. I have a close friend who has for many years. Maybe I can get you some answers to your questions. If you e-mail me your questions I can forward them to Rick Martin and see what he says.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 15:57:46 (ZULU)

'lito,

12 groove barrel country:

Boots and I came to the same conclusion, and I haven't given him any prompting..We're both kind of thinking it could have been made for Marlin as a one off, possibly a blank for an employee who then fobbed it off later..Have you ever had the bore diameter measured(diameter of lands)?

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 18:11:03 (ZULU)

JR...

>" 'lito, 12 groove barrel country:

Boots and I came to the same conclusion, and I haven't given him any prompting... We're both kind of thinking it could have been made for Marlin as a one off, possibly a blank for an employee who then fobbed it off later... Have you ever had the bore diameter measured (diameter of lands)?

JR"<

I have never measured the lands or the grooves - had no need to.

Here's what I CAN tell you.. The smith was once an employee of the Remington Custom shoppe, before retiring and opening a small business in his garage.

At the Remington Custom shoppe, he built the benchrest and match rifles, (not the custom "DELUX" engraved rifles").

So I don't think it was Marlin... but Marlin DID try to get into the match business some years back, and I "think" they built some pretty high end match rifles that were not for public consumption.

Maybe he got it from a friend at Marlin... it has the nicest bore I have ever seen. When you look into the muzzle of a good stainless steel barrel, it is dark gray, but looks like stainless steel... when you look into this bore, it is so smooth that it looks mirror black.

Who ever made it, sure know what the hell they were doing.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 19:21:50 (ZULU)

Any of you guys have a old Baush and Lomb 10x tactical that's collecting dust (NOT the Bushnell POS) - I have a very good friend that building a project riffle that is looking for one.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 19:29:57 (ZULU)

'lito,

Its a funny thing with barrels, you can get one of a kind from any number of sources, especially if the makers, individuals who are also shooters who provide for their own wares...a lapped marlin is not out of the question atall..perhaps Rem custom shop was trying an idea out...Regardless, you got a good stick..

You need parkin space for that airboat? Think dad has the drawings still for the airboat on ski's for the wintertime, might come in handy in CT..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, October 1, 2007, at 19:53:21 (ZULU)

Guys,

What kinda metal would be needed to make blades to use a table router to cut aluminum? Would a normal table router spin fast enough to make repeated 1/4 in deep cuts, say for finger jointing? (still trying to invent my own job)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 2, 2007, at 09:30:35 (ZULU)

Carbide would be best, but plain ol' good quality HS steel will do it.

Just don't feed the work too fast, because the blade will heat up and loose the hardness.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 2, 2007, at 14:28:23 (ZULU)

Back on September 23rd, I started this thead of riffle cleaning by saying...

>"Cleaning Riffles.

YOU CAN'T!!"<

Well, the first three or four riffles I did had top of the line barrels.

I just finished doing a Remington, 700 CDL Ltd, .17 FireBall with a factory barrel.

17 Cal centerfires are noted for fouling, and the tube on this puppy is NOT a custom, hand lapped, $500 goodie... it is a run of the mill Remington, stainless fluted medium weight, off of the truck (that came from God knows where)...

... and it is clean, down the the bare stainless steel!!

So... I will change the lead in to this thread:

Cleaning Riffles.

YOU CAN'T!!... if you use bronze brushes!

And I can't tell you how painful that is to say - I have been using bronze brushes since the "Bronze age", back when they invented the match lock :((

It turns out that the bronze brush will leave more copper in the bore than the damn bullet left from shooting... so as you scrub, you lay down the next layer of copper... and you run a patch through it, it comes out dark green, and you are convinced that you have to brush the bore more to get the green out...

... I think en-ga-neers call that a "feed back loop"... but dogs call it "Chasing your own tail"!!

It appears that the path is to use a nylon/aluminum or nylon/plated steel brush with powder solvent to get the gook out, then use a copper dissolver to get the copper out.

I'm not done with this, I just thought I'd give you guys a summery of where I am right now.

My next step is to measure exactly how much copper (bronze) a brush leaves in the barrel by brushing. Some guys say that the brushes loose copper from the solvent - but I will take a brand new brush, clean it with break cleaner, dry it, weigh it - and then use it to scrub the bore, using kerosene, instead of solvent.

Then wash it with break cleaner again, dry it, and weight it again.

I'll let you know what happens.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 2, 2007, at 23:00:25 (ZULU)

Heeeeellooooow...

Is there any intelligent life out there, or did the BATF cut Ken's T-1 cable?????

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 02:31:35 (ZULU)

re: the hunt for intelligent life

I think I can fake it :-)

Geek humor:

Overheard one of my co-workers asking over the phone if they were talking to a real live person.

The Turing Test sprang to mind...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 03:30:07 (ZULU)

I don't claim any intellegence, but I'm here...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 03:31:00 (ZULU)

Rod,

I don't think I have ever changed the bolt gas rings on my SP-1 AR in over 20 or about 20,000 rounds (approximately). I have noticed no ill effects. Can't hurt. I am interested in what others are doing.

Lito: I will try to get the article in the mail to you Thursday

Pat II
Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 04:04:25 (ZULU)

'Lito,

What I'm wondering about your whole project here, is how this deep cleaning is affecting accuracy. Have you kept records on how a rifle shot both before and after this treatment? I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Everyone has heard that you can ruin accuracy by overcleaning a barrel, and I wonder at what point this happens.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 04:54:03 (ZULU)

Cleaning

I don't remember who mentioned mixing Hoppe's#9 and Kroil, but i'll tell you i'm liking that recipe.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 10:23:06 (ZULU)

Yo 'Lito,

Ya, I'm here too. Not intelligent enough to rate, but I'm here.

Still waiting for the cheque. Insurance companies truly are the bane of mankind.

They sell a product, and do whatever they can, to avoid supplying the product that they sell. Then, when the government owns/is the insurance company, it gets exponentially worse.

Then, take into context that the laws require the product to be bought, by everyone, with another law stating that no other companies can supply said product, it is quite a vicious circle. Most definitely a situation where the government should not be in business to be in business.

Now back to "our government sucks". And people keep voting for this crap.

God Bless, and Stay Safe,

Sean

I truly look forward to this coming to an end, so that I can take my missus out, and we can actually do some shooting. It has been too many years, since we have been able to do so.

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 14:26:54 (ZULU)

'Lito-if kerosene turns out to be a good bore cleaner, more than lawyers will be looking for blood.

Routing aluminum-as fast as a router spins, you're going to have to lubricate the cutting head, even with a carbide tool. A spray/mist of some type would be best at that speed-which is way higher than usual for machining metal. Maybe one of those deck sprayers would work, check with a machine shop on appropriate lubricant. Kerosene might work.

Assumming you're gonna hand feed this thing, wear eye protection and, if posssible, body armor. Carbide teeth that come loose are bullets.

WR Moore
Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 17:09:08 (ZULU)

Speaking of "No intelligent life..."

I went to the range to check the zero of my .300win. Wind was 10mph or so from 6:00. I set a target at 500yds, dialed it, got into bipod/beanie baby prone, shot and cracked myself between the eyes with the scope.

Imagine my embarassment.

A guy on the line came over, looked at the blood on my face and openly smirked. I deserved it.

The .300 is set up like my .220, and I'm much too used to shooting the .220. The butt was not pulled into my shoulder with enough force and the full weight of my head was not resting on the comb. Rookie foul-ups 1-A and 1-B.

The 5 shot group was 5.25". Three shots were in 1.5". The zero is fine.

CDC'
Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 18:50:54 (ZULU)

Travis ,You might want to put a speed controller on that Router.

30,000 + RPM's is a bit TOO fast.

Also checkout " McMaster-Carr " for End Mills that would be more suitable for Alumnium.

And as mentioned BE CAREFUL !!!!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 20:54:04 (ZULU)

CDC',

Don't feel bad. An engineer came into work Monday with butterfly band-aids on his eyebrow. He wasn't paying attention when he pulled the trigger on a rifle. I was expecting him to tell me it was a 416-Rigby or something.... but a 308 it was.

Then again... he IS an engineer..... :8-o

Duman
Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 22:02:25 (ZULU)

An interesting thread on COMCAST "Are Handguns really necessary?"

These are comments from the peanut gallery. FWIW.

Click on my name to go to the URL

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornia, USA - Wednesday, October 3, 2007, at 22:22:29 (ZULU)

WR Moore...

The Kerosene is not for cleaning. If I want to see how much copper is deposited on the barrel by the brush, WITHOUT putting a solvent on it, I still have to use some "neutral" liquid, or it is not a fair test.

So the kerosene is just to keep the brush wet, like a bore cleaner would, without actually taking a chance the the bore cleaner is dissolving the brush... make sense (I hope)?

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 02:39:19 (ZULU)

'Lito,

How did you arrive at the conclusion that Kerosene would be "neutral"?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 10:32:05 (ZULU)

Travis...

>" 'Lito, How did you arrive at the conclusion that Kerosene would be "neutral"?"<

Cuz Kerosene doesn't dissolve copper.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 17:10:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

Contrary to the rumor I AM still alive. Bravo has been checking on me occasionally...

Seems I've missed a lot about what has been happening to our members. Sounds like it's not been all good.

The usual talk about barrels, cleaning, rifles, etc. Interesting, but not earth shattering. Yours truely decided long ago to continue doing what has worked for me and stop trying everything else "new and improved". Seems like it always comes back to Hoppes #9 and Shooter's Choice, anyway...;-)

Well, it works for me.

Lito, my heart goes out to you and "Ruggus Rattus". Didn't get the full story, but it sounds all too familiar. Especially, after what Bravo and a couple of my friends have been through in the past few years. Government steps in and does "what's best" for the situation and they don't have a clue. Except to cover their collective asses and smile smuggly while proclaiming another win for their side.

Each day I work with truely bad men and see the worst society has to offer and it sickens me. At the other end of the spectrum we have our legal/political system that seems spun out of control and that sickens me equally. One is supposed to protect you from the former while it seems the latter, however well intentioned, causes as much or more damage.

Of course, I may be overly sensitized to this right now as I just finished my second reading of "Unintended Consequences".

Rifle Question: There seems to be a number of AR style .308 platforms at present. Makers seem to be Armalite and DPMS. Had heard that Bushmaster was going to build a .308 platform, but that has been cancelled. Also, the possibility that Rock River was going to start production. What seems to be performing the best and is the best dollar value of the factory offerings?

Can't compare my own AR-10 because it's a G.A. Precision custom and all semblance of "factory" ended with the upper/lower action. I do love it.

Latest project is a Ruger #1 custom. More on that later. It's going to be a beauty...

As always your experience, thoughts, pontifications, etc. are solicited(hell, you're gonna give them anyway!).

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 19:35:19 (ZULU)

Wes: the late Walker Percy was asked by an interviewer if, as a writer, he felt estranged from society. He replied, "Only properly estranged. If I felt less estranged, I couldn't write, and if I felt more estranged, I would drink all the time."

I feel estranged from much of what passes for American culture as reflected in politics, in the fat, undisciplined people with maxed out credit cards and no savings and gang bangers I see on the streets - and I regard that estrangement as a good thing. I can't watch TV any more, either.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 20:43:17 (ZULU)

small rear rifle bags for field usage...

(Those sock-like things)

Now that I have lost a lot of weight, I'm lower to the ground when shooting prone. I may now be able to use a small rear field bag with a rifle, an option that was not available to me earlier.

Who is currently selling nice pre-fab rear rifle rest bags for field usage? They don't seem to have a "standard" name that I can discern, which makes looking for such on the web tedious.

I would prefer a design I can fill myself, since the product will likely be shipped to me trans-border. That will reduce shipping costs and delays with Canada Customs.

Something along these lines would be nice:

http://www.dog-gone-good.com/

Holland Field Bag - 3x4x5

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 22:00:20 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Lito: You have snail mail enroute.

Rod: For a stock bag, I took an old pair of BDU's, used the drawsting closed end made a sack and filled it with triple bagged rice. I did this while in the military, so if push comes to shove, you can eat the contents of your stock bag. It also make a preety good stock/rest bag. Recreational/LE sniper, likely things won't get that bag, but who knows. FWIW.

Pat II
Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 23:06:01 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

WHERE THE HELL YOU BEEN, MANG!!

>"Lito, my heart goes out to you and "Ruggus Rattus". Didn't get the full story, but it sounds all too familiar. Especially, after what Bravo and a couple of my friends have been through in the past few years. Government steps in and does "what's best" for the situation and they don't have a clue. Except to cover their collective asses and smile smuggly while proclaiming another win for their side."<

But the worm turns.

On Monday, I filed a new motion, called "Plaintiff's motion to compel production of documents... bla, bla, bla... for the cocurt to order the "psychologist" to give me copies of ALL documents, e-mails, etc, from EVERYBODY, for the following reasons...

---

(From the motion)...

The Plaintiff in the above matter represents to this honorable court, that on or about, September 15th, 2007, Dr. Sidney Horoxxxx finished a report which is the conclusion of a lengthy court ordered evaluation of the plaintiff, the defendant, and the minor child.

The Plaintiff further represents to this honorable court the following:

1 – That the original Family Services Report for the above matter was completed by Leah Marxxx Fuxxx of the Bridgeport FRO, and was submitted on or about December 8th 2006.

2 – That this court (by Judge Tierxxx) ordered the original Family Services Report to be updated to include the findings and/or recommendations of Dr. Sidney Horoxxxx.

3 – That this update by Ms. Leah Marxxx Fuxxx was completed and submitted to this court, on or about September 11th, 2007.

4 – That the comments and opinions attributed to Dr. Horoxxxx in the updated FRO report are inconsistent with, and contrary to, accepted published definitions and standards of the Connecticut DCFS (Department of Children and Families Services), relating to child neglect and child abuse.

5 – That the comments and opinions attributed to Dr. Horoxxxx in the updated FRO report are inconsistent with, and contrary to, the actual facts of the defendant’s behavior towards the child, during the five year period of September, 2002, through September, 2007.

6 - That the plaintiff has requested a copy of this report, and was advised that Dr. Horoxxxx would not supply a copy of the report to the plaintiff.

7 – That the plaintiff, who is Pro Se in the above matter, can not properly prepare to depose Dr. Horoxxxx about the report, if the plaintiff does not have any knowledge of what is contained in the written report, or how such conclusions were reached.

8 – That the plaintiff can not prepare for a trial, if the plaintiff has no knowledge of what the report states, or on what material the report was based on, and how it was derived.

9 – That the plaintiff cannot properly question or challenge the report of Dr. Horoxxxx during the trial, without knowing in advance, what the report and opinions are based on.

10 – That the plaintiff can not present witnesses at trial, that can challenge or counter the opinions and/or recommendations of Dr. Horoxxxx, without having full knowledge of what those opinions and/or recommendations are, and what materials were used to create those conclusions and/or recommendations.

For the reasons stated above, the plaintiff requests of this honorable court, that the court order Dr. Sidney Horoxxxx to produce to the plaintiff, all the following documents.

1 - A full, unedited, copy of the final report, as sent to the GaL, Ms. Pat XXXX.

2 – Complete copies of all documents, e-mails, and all other materials that were used by Dr. Horoxxxx, to produce the final report, and to form the opinions and recommendations contained therein.

3 – A copy of Dr. Horoxxxx’s PhD Thesis, which by his own statement, is a study of the relevance and importance of the father’s role in the raising of a male child.

Respectfully submitted by the Plaintiff in the above matter.

Bla, bla, bla...

---

OK. I filled that with the court on Monday morning, and sent copies to the GaL and the Rug Rat's attorney, and to the ex's attorney (as required by law), but I also pinged one to the "Dr. (PhD), Horoshitz, as a jab in the gut.

I got a call this morning from the GaL (Pat xxxx), who is the only clean, honest person in the whole deal.

She leaves a message, "Paul, you must call me as soon as you get this message".

So I called her back (I was in the john), and she says that I shouldn't go forwards with my motion... that she talked to Horoshitz and he is willing to change his mind and recommend a one year trial with daddy if the ex will agree to it.

I told her that I would go along with a meeting, but I bet her a cheeseburger that the ex would not agree - she says that if the FRO is on my side (she is), and Horoshitz is on my side, and she (the GaL) is on my side, they well tell her that the three of the are ALL against her, and that she will loose in court. So she should agree to the deal and save $40,000 to $60,000 (more if my "fees" motion goes through.

So it looks like my motion was really a bombshell. I don't think Horoshitz wants to have to turn over his papers, and I don't think he wants to be held accountable for a stupid report.

I gots my fingers crossed, and it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

My plan "B" is still moving forwards at full speed.

Where the hell is Jon-K???? We need someone to beat up on ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 23:11:40 (ZULU)

Good luck, I can't begin to imagine what you and your boy have had to go through.

I particularly liked the PhD thesis bit......

Mark D
London, - Thursday, October 4, 2007, at 23:52:17 (ZULU)

Lindy,

That estrangement IS a good thing. Kinda makes me feel foolish for all the "old fashioned" folks I ignored, growing up. Maybe Elvis really was contributing to society's downfall. But how far back do we go? To the puritans? I gotta admit, it'd be sad seeing guys getting all hot and bothered over some chick's hairy ankle!

Any of you have an idea for a cast bullet you wish you could find, but can't?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 03:29:17 (ZULU)

>>Of course, I may be overly sensitized to this right now as I just finished my second reading of "Unintended Consequences".<<

Sir Wes: No. You are not. We are about to vote ourselves a free ride off the treasury, and no one cares enough to ask where the money really comes from. Hell, half the taxpayers aren't---as in no taxes; a portion of those also get a surplus check already (more back than they paid in)--and it hasn't occured to these same dumbasses that the people they want to foot the bill are the same guys who sign their paychecks. Heheh...the shit will hit the fan; but it is in slow motion.

Rifles: I have the LR260 DPMS, and I like it. I think a 22" barrel would be better, or some heavy fluting--for a better balance. I dropped in a JP trigger (which no AR should be without) and I changed the butt stock--otherwise, it is factory. Bravo pointed out that the original manufacture of these big ARs did not have a forward assist or dust cover. I'd avoid that. Oh, it shoots better than I can. The twist is fast, too, for a 260 at 1:7.5". Maybe if someone builds spear-boolits in 6.5mm (145gr+), I can shoot 'em!

I am getting into this archery stuff. I just scrapped that old sight and rest (the rest was serious overdraw) and ratched up the pounds. Also discovered that the upper limb was dialed up about 5 pounds more than the lower (whoops). I got a little level (came with the light feature i wanted on the new sight)--and I realized quick that i was cheating the peep over to my eye slightly. That little bubble improved my form some. Now I am amazing myself at 40 yards by nailing the 4" spot at will (most arrows are crowding the center, with 4 out of 5 within 2.5" of each other). I've been having such a darn good time at my new archery range, I almost forgot I have 3 deer tags...Oh, and the first time at 40yds--I let it fly and as usual it buried in the target. I couldn't see it. I wondered "where the hell did that one go?" |I had dialed in at 10, and 20 and 30 were dead-on. Apparently, so was the 40 pin! It shocked me to see a center ass hit! I went right back and repeatedly amazed myself. Just goes to show you that great equipment can make a fool look talented:))

I'm off to spread garage-floor epoxy on my workbench(s). Give it a few months to see how it works out.

Lito: Hey now! A shot across the bow woke up the lyin' and cheatin' bastards, eh? I bet they are surprised to the point of paralysis that you are calling them to the carpet.

Makes me wonder just how bad it really is out there for the vast majority who just roll over with the injustices. Since getting screwed by the system is NOT news---it must be fuckin' routine.

You keep going, and you'll be sitting with TR as "one of my all-time heros."

Joe M
Friday, October 5, 2007, at 03:35:09 (ZULU)

Hi-po Fords from the 60's used to have sodium filled valves, it was decided that it was better to use solid titanium intakes and Inconel exhausts for the real high performance applications. Low RPM diesel applications are undoubtedly different. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, October 5, 2007, at 04:18:23 (ZULU)

Joe M... (fka "Secret Squirrel" ;)

You know, I had an interesting talk with the GaL (Pat xxxx), who is the only straight one in the bunch. I told her that I had evidence on the first bunch that the trial was fixed, and I began to list it... from the perjury and evidence fabrication of the first FRO investigator, all the way up to transcripts that prove conspiracy on the part of a sitting "presiding judge".... and that I had spent about 2,000 hours gathering it, and I had so much evidence now, that my biggest problem was to organize it.

She was shocked that I would go through that effort, and asked me why I was doing it (which shocked me). There seems to a prevailing attitude these days that if someone screws you, you just go home and hope it doesn't happen again.

She asked what I was going to gain from all the work and pressing charges. I told her that these bastards stole 4 years of my life, stole two years of time with my son, stole two years of his education, and stole his childhood... for that, they were going to pay, and there wasn't a hole deep enough for them to hide - I would never stop hunting them down, until they were in jail.

Apparently, she never met people with these values - in her social circle, "pay back", and "revenge" for someone that hurt your child just isn't in the vocabulary.

And I told her that if this "meeting" didn't work, I would have the report disqualified on the grounds of bias and non-professional conduct.

She said I couldn't.

I said I have won 85% to 90% of my motions so far, and everyone said I couldn't do that. If the court doesn't disqualify the report, at least the asshole will have to sweat on the stand.

I think they have finely gotten the idea that I will not roll over.

Payback is sweet - it makes up for the pain of a few years ago - Ruggus Rattus is doing fine, and my ex is sweating by the gallon.

Life is good!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 04:46:36 (ZULU)

Travis

What you looking for in a cast bullet?

Try Montana Bullet Works, i've had real good luck with them.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 10:29:35 (ZULU)

I just realized why my .300 cracked me between the eyes; I weigh almost 40 lbs less than when I shot it before. No problem: I'll just use better form.

CDC'
Friday, October 5, 2007, at 14:58:44 (ZULU)

Gary: I think Travis wants to make them for us:))

Travis: Cast bullets? I'd want some that undercut the competition in price for my CAS rigs, all 45. I shoot the heavier end of bullets, but could be talked down to 200grs with a good recipe for consistant loads. If you are starting up a mail order bid'ness---do consider paying out a licensing fee and form a LLC. Separate your house and car (and other income sources) from your business. That way, if some loony dipshit alleges injury--he can only get your foundry and moulds. It is pure WY6!

I was rushing the kids thru breakfast and off to the bus so I could go launch arrows before the storms hit. Too late! I'll catch a break in the storms later on.

Joe M
Friday, October 5, 2007, at 15:03:39 (ZULU)

Joe M- someone beat you to that conclusion... and he died before the US Civil war began.

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

Alexis de Tocqueville

Some of his other gems

"It is the dissimilarities and inequalities among men which give rise to the notion of honor; as such differences become less, it grows feeble; and when they disappear, it will vanish too."

"In the United States, the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own."

"The best laws cannot make a constitution work in spite of morals; morals can turn the worst laws to advantage. That is a commonplace truth, but one to which my studies are always bringing me back. It is the central point in my conception. I see it at the end of all my reflections."

"The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults. "

"Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude."

medicjim
Friday, October 5, 2007, at 18:17:19 (ZULU)

Joe & Travis

Give Dave a call at montanabulletworks.com He's a very accomodating guy. You could also post a question at jouster.com on the cast bullet forum FWIW

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 19:06:26 (ZULU)

Marius, your e-mail is bouncing...mailbox over the limit!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 19:06:53 (ZULU)

Medic Jim

Here's a good one for ya http://www.linkamerica.com/freedom/lessonlearned.html

To all of ya'll that were at sniper quest at badlands,

Good job and good shooting !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 22:40:18 (ZULU)

...at least the trains ran on time.

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

One of the few upsides to "universal" Federal licensing of firearm owners in Canada.

Ordered a shotgun from an out-of-province retailer on Wednesday afternoon, lawfully took delivery via Canada Post on Friday afternoon. No local dealer involved.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 5, 2007, at 22:45:54 (ZULU)

CDC: You "just noticed" that you are missing the rucksack off your back??? Heheh. Dumping a few pounds does wonders for the knees, among other positive things. Its almost worth being scoped...(grin). I think we have all been there at least once. Like the time I failed to notice the muzzle brake was off of a 340wby (I got compacent with the 'brake). Blood, but no stitches. Once in a while I still get reminded to hold harder with my Sako in 300. Ya just get used to those 308s after a while, I guess.

MedicJim: That is one outstanding essayist; frogs of his caliber are as rare as frog-hair these days. The manhood of that nation died on the Marne about a century ago...though the current prez might be a bit of a throwback. One can hope...

I've decided that I have a magic bow (cuz it can't be skill yet--I was off the bow for more years than i care to admit). No matter how bad I screw up my form on release, the damned arrow finds its way to the bull. I did 5 sets of five arrows @ 40 yards. The only miss (outside the 4" center ring) came from a deflection--I shot the nock off the arrow that occupied dead center of the bull! OK, this could get boring. Maybe next year I'll try a recurve and finger release. Oh, and never underestimate the power of tuning a bow.

Rod: Great progress on needing a new bean bag! I use a sturdy sock with rice...infinately adjustable and cheaper than dirt (well, lighter than dirt).

In about a week or so, the Rut shall begin. Dumb bucks beats a smart ass everytime!

Joe M
Friday, October 5, 2007, at 23:36:03 (ZULU)

Gary,

I already have local sources for bullets. No sense in paying to have them shipped here. I'm considering starting my own cast bullet gig. Even if I don't take over the bullet world, I can still pay my way to gun shows.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 11:40:28 (ZULU)

Jury duty scam;

There is a scam going on now where a crook calls your home and tells you you're in violation of a jury duty summons. You tell them you never received a summons and they then ask for your full name, SSN, address, etc. to verify things.

From the FBI website:

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/june06/jury_scams060206.htm

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 11:48:39 (ZULU)

Paintball wizard.....................

I've never been interested in paintball until the folks at work finally talked me into playing yesterday at Vital Paintball up in Tobaccoville, NC. Folks I tell you I had a blast. Sore as a boil this morning. I learned a lot about what to do and what not to haul around for short 30 minute games. Taking the fort from the berms was not my cup of tea but when we had games in the woods I felt like I was in my element. It was hotter than forty megahells yesterday and at 53 years old I'm to danged out of shape to run with the young whipper snappers. But those young whipper snappers make mistakes that those of us that that have pretty much lived in the woods all our lives pick up on real quick. I couldn't run very fast due to a flare up of plantar facitis in my left heal but all in all it was really fun.

Things I learned.......

Cheapo plastic parts break. I broke the collapsable stock off my damn gun. Tapco makes a cheap POS. With the mask you can't get down on the sights anyway so the stock goes away. You don't need to carry 500 balls for a 30 minute game. A waist band that holds four pods and a cylinder can't be worn under a ghillie suit without looking like the Hunchback of ND. Electronic gizmos go south in a hurry. Some of the guys had electronic this and that and they were having more trouble than us folks that learned that batteries and microchips ain't worth a damn under heavy use.

If you haven't tried paintball don't poopoo yet. It is fun as hell hitting somebody in the ass with a half dozen balls at close range :)

Shooting real guns..................

Well it is finally cooling down enough for me to get back interested in gunpowder propelled projectiles. I got plumb tired of changing loads to beat the primer popping episodes I had this summer. I've got seven riffles in the safe that haven't been shot......they will be soon. I've also got donor actions to build a 300WSM and a 7WSM. Now all I need to do is rob a back to fund the builds. Also joined the new indoor pistolero range just down the road. Got a family membership so that Doughlady can get her CCW. I've also found a place that has 3-gun matches so that may be a new sideline. Long range at Butner is fun but I haven't been doing good lately and several people told me that it may be time to slack up on the long range for a while and play other games.

Y2K nostalgia.........

I miss the Y2K chaos :(

http://www.websmith.demon.co.uk/y2k/

Time to apply more BenGay to my out-of-shape muscles that are screaming at me right now, Bolt out!

Boltar.....master of paintball death
Still hot and dry in......, NC, - Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 12:39:33 (ZULU)

'Lito- sometime after all the fun & games are over, ask the GaL how, as an officer of the court, she can overlook corruption of the court/legal system:)))))

Expect the shrink is sweating over having to give up working notes...probably do not support report........if they exist. If I read you right, contradicting the body of his own work is also an interesting developement that'd cripple him in the professional credibility area for future work. Ya done good.

WR Moore
Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 13:46:52 (ZULU)

Joe M: I'll bet when the .340 tags you it leaves no doubt.

The world is different at 158 than at 196.5 lbs. For one thing I'm easier to push around. The .300 demonstrated that. On the other hand those 10,000 ft peaks don't look so high.

CDC'
Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 14:40:07 (ZULU)

WR Moore...

Thanks dudeski.

This has been an interesting adventure (but I wish it was a dugout trip down the Amazon ;).

I have learned a few things - if a judge sees something bad, they can't say anything about it - if you don't bring it up, it goes through.

If a Judge thinks someone is lying, and no one brings it up, it goes past - the judge cannot fight your battles against evil.

But if a judge thinks one side is shitty, and you bring it up, the judge can drop mount Everest on them.

I have also learned that no one thinks much of "Pro-Se" people... you have to prove yourself in court before you get any respect - after which, you get full respect, and a little extra leeway, but only if you earn it. If you act like an ass, or come to court unprepared, you get no slack at all.

It's not a nice place for good men to be - it'll take a case of brown soap to get the stink of this off when it is over.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 18:47:04 (ZULU)

Travis, the cheapo mass market bullets are pretty well covered. I'd encourage either the binary alloy(tin:lead) blackpowder bullets, primarily for rifles or trinary alloy properly hardened hunting bullets like true Keiths, ogival flatpoints, maybe those SSK style flatpoint truncated cones, etc etc etc. To be just another guy cranking out machine drop bevel base SWC's is to have no real basis of competition other than cheapness. And that is a shitty business to be in. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 19:24:46 (ZULU)

"If a Judge thinks someone is lying, and no one brings it up, it goes past - the judge cannot fight your battles against evil.

But if a judge thinks one side is shitty, and you bring it up, the judge can drop mount Everest on them."

Yep, if you can quote the applicable code sections properly, they'll help ("Hep" locally) you. The past couple of years I've been whispering in the wife's ear when she went Pro Se. Judge won't-properly, I'm not a lawyer-allow me to open my yap. I've gotta prompt her.

But ya gotta play their game by their rules. The most recent time, we broke down and got a hired gun. Very good, but Gawd Almighty, the opposition better (re)pay his costs. I'm now convinced most tort actions are filed because it's cheaper to pay up than defend yourself.

I'm also about to dance on the crainium of the local Commonwealth Attorney about some criminal issues. Problem is, I've considered one of the fur balls from his perspective, and I can understand the reluctance. Also, if I do the dance during the election and he loses, fine & dandy. If he survives, we're toast.

WR Moore
Saturday, October 6, 2007, at 19:52:02 (ZULU)

Well Brothers, wish me luck. They moved up my back surgery from the 23rd to this Monday at 0800. Got to have my butt there (Methodist Hospital in SA) at 0500 for admin and prep. I will probably get to come home Friday or so. He He I am used to being in total control and now I won't hardly be able to wipe my own arse for a few days.

MZ Dee is going to be staying with me most of the time. She will go home every day to feed and water Gunny and then head back. When I get home I will give you all a SITREP and AAR.

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 14:19:37 (ZULU)

Best of luck Jim. I hope your recovery is quick and the outcome better than expected.

medicjim
Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 15:03:16 (ZULU)

Good morning gents.

'Lito, you are one stubborn SOB. It's amazing the crap you have been through and you're really going to turn the tables on those libtard f***s, get all that stuff squared away, and do it all pro se. That is, in two words.......quite American.

Jim, best of luck with your back surgery. Chronic back problems really suck.

Going on 10 months with the new bride, and she is a firecracker.....screw that, more like a 2L bottle of tannerite. Definitely got Irish in the blood. Smarter than me. Damn pushy.....kind of like me. We are BOTH learning a lot! Her....that I don't back down much and ain't gonna change a whole lot. Me....that she is going to have to learn that the hard way.....prior clear statements of boundaries by yours truly be damned!

Caliber question: I'm on a serious budget, and working on assembling a business. I want to pick up a couple of hunting sticks for the wife and I. I am a Savage fan of course. I'm going to pick up a couple of Stevens basic bolt guns in a short action and tweak them......they are built by Savage, accuracy reports are excellent, and street price is under $300. Main use will be deer hunting. Joe M has raved about the wind bucking and trajectory of the .260 round. The Stevens is not chambered for it, but they do sell them in .270 and 7mm-08. Joe says 7mm would rock. I want rifles that I can zero for 250 yards and basically just hold over or under a bit to make good hits from 50 to 500 yards. Can some of you expound on the qualities of the .270 vs. 7mm-08?

Bravo....I lost your digits....ring me later this week in the evening.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 16:48:27 (ZULU)

Geoff...

I have owned a 7-08, and sold it shortly after I bought it. The 7-08 was developed back in the late 70's primarily as a cartridge for metallic silly-wet, to give a bit of advantage in weight/BC.

It didn't and doesn't have much to make it stand out.

I currently have two 270's. It is arguably one of the best rifle cartridges for game on the northern continent... and is in the top group of hunting cartridges (along with the 30-06, 308, and 243).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 17:09:34 (ZULU)

Best of luck on the back surgery, Jim! Getting old sucks - but it's better than the alternative.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 18:01:10 (ZULU)

Gents: Just did a dumb thing--I spray painted in a relatively confined space (little air circulation). I wore only a face mask charcoal imbedded filter. I could smell the paint, if slightly, after about ten minutes. After coating two cans' worth, I stood up and got a little light-headed. I broke for fresh air. Now i am a bit light headed still (been 30 minutes), and I feel flush. Weird symptom is a loss of motor function in my right arm--again, this is slight. I wouldn't have noticed at all until I went to pinch some copenhagen and couldn't. This could also be caused by gripping a paint roller for hours on end.

My question is: Does spray paint have any neurological impacts with exposure? I know about the displaced oxygen and the cyanotic effects...but the fine motor degradation is new to me. I'm curious because I can explain this away with other causes. I'd tell ya what kind of paint it was, but I ain't going back in there for a while yet:))

Lito: I figured the .308 necked down to 6.5mm made a great cartridge, then necking it down a tad less ought to be good too. I am surprised the 7mm-08 fails in your experience. Do you think that it could have a second life with current bullets and faster twists than what they had in its inception?

I too like the 270, but I think that it is "more is better" for local hunting. That is not a bad thing, though you could step down and get a lighter stick without the extra recoil/ blast and still have what Geoff is looking for...again, locally.

I guess the decision Geoff needs to make is: Is this rifle for local hunting, or a one-size fits any and all CONUS situations in compromise? Me, I like to tailor rifles to situations (buy more rifles:))--but the first few I owned were bought for "broad uses." If it is a general purpose, then 30-06 or 270 is a great choice. Everyone carries ammo, and either will do everything south of Canada and north of mexico.

Has anyone stuffed a 6mm bullet into a 5.56mm cartridge yet?

Enough for now....jeez I feel shitty. Chemical exposures sux. I guess I don't "get it" that some idiots do stuff like this for kicks. You have to be a moron to stick yer face in a bag of this stuff intentionally. Darwin anyone???

(heheh--until today, I thought I could avoid darwin myself:))

Joe M
Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 21:05:12 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Yes,paint fumes can affect coodination...http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs07/708/index.htm

Look under ...What are the effects.Usually shows in long term use

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 22:50:13 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Treatment would be to get lots of fresh air. Don't go back in that space for at least 24 hr. Drink lots of water.

medicjim
Sunday, October 7, 2007, at 22:59:42 (ZULU)

Finger,

Good luck with the surgerty and heal up quick

Pat II
Monday, October 8, 2007, at 05:00:05 (ZULU)

The 270 vs 7-08 is sorta unfair, since you're comparing a LA to a SA. Unlike Lito, I like the 7-08 for the vastly superior bullets available. I run 162 A-Max's, 168 JLK's and occasionally 168 Bergers and they do good things. That said, I stepped up to a 280AI for my LR target needs, since I like the extra 300fps extra V I can get out of it. My compact M40 PIP is a 7-08 with a 20" tube, and I plan on shooting this barrel out, then setting back and getting it fitted for a can.

That said, I have two 270's also, great hunting cartridge, you just lack on the heavy bullets, 150 is about it. Fortunately, 150 Partitions or other premium bullets will do for about anything in North America, if you will. Unfortunately, for target use, nobody makes a decent bullet, the 135 SMK is a brick. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Monday, October 8, 2007, at 05:55:14 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Fresh air worked. Once I checked the can's label--it said much the same thing for the exposure symptoms I had. Toluene, Xylene and acetone were the ingediants that I wallowed around in.

Ken M: I was hoping you'd step in! I didn't bring you up as an example (not my place)--but I was impressed by your 7mm's; tis why I recommended this choice to Geoff.

Wife: "Why in the hell do you need so many pistols in .45?"

Me: "Cuz 9mm sucks..."

Her: "Oh..."

Something is up. That was going to be an argument--I could tell by the tone. But it ended just that quick. Hmmm. I wonder what she bought that she hasn't mentioned yet:))

Joe M
Monday, October 8, 2007, at 16:50:20 (ZULU)

.270 Vs. 7-08. I don’t have a 7-08, but I do have a 7X57 which is close to the 7-08. I had a .270 for a lot of years, but after I got a chronograph I found my hand loaded Speer 160 grain bullets were 120 fps faster than the factory 150 grain .270.

I was lucky enough to hunt in South Africa using both the 7X57 and .30-06. My furthers kill was on a Black Wildebeest with the 7X57. The shot was a measured 381 yards and he dropped in his tracks. I wanted to try to get closer but my guide said it was too open and flat. Said if I wounded him the trackers would find him.

I now use three rifles for hunting. The .243, 7X57 and .30-06. The .243 has never failed me on Oklahoma whitetail deer, where most of the shots are 150 yards or less.

HDR
OK, - Monday, October 8, 2007, at 16:56:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

Jim, good luck on the pending back surgery. All the stupid stuff I've done my back has remained relatively unscathed outside of a pinched nerve on one occasion. Here's hoping you are back to 100% after the surgery!

Joe M., paint fumes? You gotta be kidding me. Real men use varnish remover! Don't ask how I know...on the other hand I was OK in 30 minutes or so. An accaintance did this with Wasp & Hornet spray in an attic crawlspace. Damn near killed him. Don't those warnings say "use in a well ventilated space/avoid breathing fumes"? Of course WE read the warnings...;-)

Rifle calibers: built a nice 7/08 on a Sako action/Shilen barrel years back. Took several nice blacktails with it. Sold it because I could never get over 2,600 FPS using 140 grainers. Pressure signs were scary if I pushed any harder. This from a cartridge that touted 2,800-2,900 FPS for that bullet weight. Have never gone back. If I'd have had a brain (fumes?) I'd have bought a .308 Winch and been happy. Which is what I did. Have had five and am still looking for the perfect rifle. My Winchester Featherweights have come closest. Interstingly, I've never owned a .270 in spite of growing up reading O'Connor and only one .30/06 in an M1 Garand. Respect both, but just don't hunt with them. Probably don't use a .270 because of meat damage I saw from a 130 grainer on blacktails as a youngster.

The '06? Well, just too plain generic, I guess.

As a lad I took about a half dozen Blacktails with a customized .303 British and 180 grain Remington Core-lokts. MUCH respect for the cartridge and it's capabilities. All animals, but one were one shot kills and the other follow up shot was probably not needed.

Played with the 6mm's for a bit. A .243 Winch in a Ruber #1B and a Rem 700 Varmint Special in 6mm Remington. Don't ask me why, but never could get comfortable with using 95-105 grain bullets for game. Prefer bullets over 130 grains and 6.5 mm or larger.

My current rifles are a .284 winchester custom built on a small ring Mexican Mauser. Full stocked, 20" Krieger barrel, engraved. Too pretty to hunt with, but I do anyway. The .284 is a darn fine cartridge.

The "big" gun is a .35 Whelan Ackley Improved built on a commercial FN M98 action. All the bells and whistles. Can push a 250 grain bullet at 2,600 FPS(take that 7/08!). Was given five boxes of old Hornady 275 grain RN's by a gent I know. Now there is a bullet. I'm sure that elk will not like them, at all. Recoil is fairly stout at 2,400-2,450 FPS.

Currently working on a high grade Ruger #1, but haven't decided on caliber. Probably .308, but there's a 6.5 X .284 reamer in the shop that's calling to me...that may be another reason not to own a .270.

Spent Saturday in the woods. We've had rain early so it's fairly quiet, but all the leaves are still on so you can't see much. The deer are staying in tight cover which means going in after them or still hunting a good spot. Not a lot of sign, either. Looks like the big cats are taking their toll. Not to mention they're logging my favorite area. Did see two nice does, but no horns. Will try again this afternoon and evening. Am going to try lower down the mountain toward the bottom land. Plenty of thick cover with young Douglas Fir growth. Some areas are just not worth trying to hunt, but that's where the buck's are. Small fir, vine maple thickets, and chest high Oregon Grape. No doubt I'll be able to sneak up on the critters in that...right! Can't very well shoot one sitting behind the computer, so I'm outta here.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, October 8, 2007, at 17:14:07 (ZULU)

Joe M

she's probably bought you a nice little 9mm Glock ;)

MarkD
London, - Monday, October 8, 2007, at 20:23:02 (ZULU)

Does anyone have a current e-mail address for Rick Boucher?

Send it to me please.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 8, 2007, at 20:54:26 (ZULU)

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/22/Business/Lighting_a_fuse.shtml

Quote:

"The big story at St. Marks Powder, Lockhart said on the phone and in a federal whistleblower lawsuit filed soon after, was that the plant routinely took shortcuts when testing gunpowder bound for the military, cheating the government and potentially endangering U.S. soldiers. Lockhart could swear to the fraud because he’d been doing it for years, having been initiated into the fine art of short-circuiting military specs by his predecessors at the 36-year-old plant."

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, October 8, 2007, at 23:03:05 (ZULU)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/08/wisconsin.shooting/index.html

CRANDON, Wisconsin (CNN) -- An off-duty sheriff's deputy used a police-style AR-15 rifle to kill six people at an early morning party in a small Wisconsin town, officials said Monday.

Watch for the anti-gunners to use this incident as a justification for "Assault Weapon Ban II"...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, October 8, 2007, at 23:50:35 (ZULU)

Rod-

Short version - Victims were ex-girlfriend and friends. 20 YO off duty deputy went to house party to try and reconcile with girl. It turned into an argument with other partgoers sticking up for the girl. Someone called the deputy a "worthless pig". Deputy retrieves rifle from vehicle, goes back into the party and empties magazine. At least one local report says rifle used was his dept. issue AR15.

Articles - http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=672136

Really, really bad scene. It sucks, bad.

I don't think they can spin this against civvies at all. However, it may put a dent in Gov. Doyle's contention that only LEO should have CCW. Maybe the State Patrol and other agencies will pass on testifying (while on duty) in Madison against the CCW bill the next time. But I doubt it. WI LE is generally pretty elitist. Up north there might be a little different.

I was in Crandon with the band this summer, playing after the running of the ESPN Crandon International Brush Run (off road racing). Cool people, typical northern WI types. Hard to imagine, it really is.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 01:45:15 (ZULU)

Jim,

Good luck, and a speedy recovery! Remember -you're not John Wayne! Hell, John Wayne wasn't John Wayne! LEt your body heal at it's own pace.

Geoff,

How about .284 Win. or 7 Mag.?

On the wife thing, it's kinda like Dad told his girlfriend - He told her, "You can ask me, and I'll go a mile for you, but you can't order me to move a damned inch!"

Joe,

Expect to see a new horse, trailer, or saddle appear at your place soon.That's probably what's up. That, or a $1,000 show "outfit".

Mike Miller,

If it comes down to it, I'll chip in something to a legal fund. Itellectual property, while intangible, IS valuable, and SHOULD be protected. There should be much harsher penalties for this type of crime.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 02:06:37 (ZULU)

Hawgs --

Been visiting the board at least once per day, try to stay catch'ed up on the reading...

Been kinda busy in the background (besides normal work, chores, etc) sort of coordinating a sort of shop/garage addition. Guess what kind of shop this will be :))

Click on my name if you care to browse thru the pics. There are quite a few. There's all kinds of construction detail. Should be finished near the end of the year....

Pablito - you're gonna win man -- don't let up until there's nothing left of the enemy.

MikeM - I saw your post here and on that other site. Let's see how 5.11 handles this... They'll either go way up in respectability or - wayyy down...

'Finger - take yer time and heal well...

JoeM -- Ima 'fraid you're a horse husband... LOL -- ask me how I know :)

Take care all -

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 02:59:38 (ZULU)

Ken...

>'Pablito - you're gonna win man -- don't let up until there's nothing left of the enemy."<

I'm on them like a cat on a pack of mieces. I played nice, and found that the psychologistéro was in the bag - and I got him dead bang.

I never met a bunch of crooked son's a bitches like this court bunch - they are so sloppy and make no effort to cover themselves up.

When I was a kidlet, I lived in little Italy, and had people like the Gambinos, and John Gotti, and the rest for neighbors - I bought candy in the Gambino's candy story (that had a "back room" where heavy set guys in suits went in and out all day)... and this court crowd is so stupid, I can't believe how they get away with it, unless they have everyone intimidated with BS.

The psychologistéro's report is high school level work, filled with big assed words - all smoke and mirrors.

We got 4 months or less to go.

You need to put the photos in a single line, and in an order, so we can just click and walk through, without going back and forth.

Do you wanna adopt me and Ruggus Rattus - we come with a great collection of guns, loading shit, and a way cool airboat ;)))))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 04:13:15 (ZULU)

Click. Cop remained professional WAaaaaaaaaaay longer than I would've. Bet he carries a backup gun, now.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 05:36:01 (ZULU)

Rod: Ironic that the Wisconsin shooting does more to support the second ammendment than not. It just takes a little logic. First, what is the second ammendment's true intent? Then ask yourself what happened here. If anything, this serves as a case study in armed citizens with unrestricted access to the same toys the guvmint has. No, the anti-gunners are not stupid enough to use this: "Hey, you armed citizens need to give up your nasty guns and let the deputy sheriffs protect you..." Heheh. That'll work. I think they are smart enough to leave this one alone.

20 years old? Did his mommy have to sign a letter? As I recall, a "citizen" has to be 21 to own a handgun. Could it be that the guvmint makes exceptions to its laws when they are inconvenient to them? (yeah i know it was an AR15, but I am betting that he carries something other than an AR in his duty holster)

While I am ranting about rights and laws:

The NRA-ILA took a pass on a recent legislation introduction that effectively strips the second ammenedment rights of any Vet who ever lost a minute's sleep over their war experience. As it is written now, I would be in a fight for my rights. The NRA position on this? "We do not oppose it because it has provisions for people to regain their rights." In other words---you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent thru some yet un-named bureaucratic three ring circus. I know the NRA is sorry on the ILA side of things---and I still supported them due to their outreach programs of matches and training, etc. Ya know, they say that a class III license is a right of citizens too, and golly, it isn't like the bureaucracies would ever curtail that thru self imposed rules and rulings. Naw, that won't ever happen (dripping sarcasm).

But I take this abdication personally---more of an unforgiveable insult. I am of the mind to sever all my ties with these idiots...after all, there are far better choices for aggressive rights' protections out there---and they could use that money that is otherwise doing nothing for me or anyone else like me.

Deep thought:

People tend to default to standard analysis of observed events--while ignoring that which occurs outside thier observation in time or distance. The usual ethno-centric stuff has roots here. "I've been around for (insert 20, 30, 40, 50 etc) years, and >it< has always been this way..." Whether the "it" is economics, social stability and law and order, foreign threats, or the constitution itself--these people filter everything thru their own limited experiences. These people also tend to be the majority of our fellow Amercians. They've been conditioned to think that the money that flows to them from government is merely printed for that purpose---they do not understand that a dollar came from another citizen's labors. They look around and see an orderly life in their community and cannot fathom irrational hatred and pure evil wanting to kill them. They see a "reasonable" reduction in their rights under the constitution and think that it is necessary under their current circumstances and harmless in and of itself this time around---as did their fathers and grandfather in their time. The process of social decay and loss of freedom is a parabolic curve; it is flat for a long time and unnoticeable, but accelerates in the end game. History shows this over and over. How many in Germany saw what was coming in 1933? 1934? 1937?

There is a phrase that shows up in contractual language, in UCMJ language, and in bureaucratic forms and filings: "The government's interests..." That always put a chill in my bones when I read it. Ask yourself why this interest should be any different than yours, or mine, or his, or her interests? The arrogance has crept in, and what remains is either scaling the beast back, servitude, or collapse of the system.

My money is on collapse--cuz we cannot accept the fact that we have enemies merely for who we are--not for what we do or say. We have enemies who want us dead or converted and under sharia---and they do not want to discuss it. Yet we have huge numbers who think we can walk away from a broken Iraq and shrug it off with no consequences; we have majorities who think a free lunch medical system is a great idea; who want to talk with the forces or radical Islam and reach accomodation; who worry how other countries "feel" about us as a nation...a recipe for failure if ever there was one.

Imagine the dollar falling by half from its current historic lows. The national debt that is held off shore---my god, commodities do not fall with currencies--this is what we call hyper-inflation. Nobody has dealt with that in their lifetime--so it can't exist in their minds. But just imagine city life in any large town if oil is effectively embargoed once again while T bonds get sold for pennies on the dollar...with a loaf of bread going for 75 bucks and the government out of its head with price controls and regulatory restrictions on who can get what. May as well imagine this shit---cuz the enemy has already targeted the economy with some success, and they know that our head is stretched out on the economic chopping block right now with deficit spending continuing, and additinal outlays being propposed weekly by every major candidate.

The wild card is terrorism. While we continue to stretch out the good times in this country bankrolled on debt; our enemies are staying their course. While we fret about world opinion and hauling ass out of Iraq (ever wonder what the world would think of us after we break it and then run?)--our enemies watch and wait. As we exchange our freedoms for free-rides, our enemy calculates his attacks on the dollar itself.

I think the terrs will bring us down low before we let the government own us wholesale. But it is sure looking like a tight race:)) I think a nuke will be the tie-breaker.

Joe M
Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 06:14:40 (ZULU)

Geoff M-

Tks for the supplemental details on the WI incident.

Canadian law enforcement mgnt attitude as a general theme wants a monopoly on use of force, would prefer civilians unarmed. Canadian street officers for non-federal depts don't necessarily hold the same view.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 06:40:50 (ZULU)

Ken,

That's going to be one fine shop. I also like your license plate on the P/U.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 9, 2007, at 15:57:45 (ZULU)

Gents,

Spent most of the day in the coast mountains of Western Oregon. The terrain I hunted and grew up in...now 40 years later I still feel like a 16 year old kid when I get out in the wet clean forest. Left the woods a bit early today, as high winds were posing a serious safety issue. Don't want to be the lone hunter that gets hit by a falling branch or tree. Am starting to think that I may be the only hunter actually IN the woods. I see lots of people in camo riding around in trucks, but have not run into one actually on foot.

Deer are still holed up tight. Today's wind didn't help. Actually went into the thick stuff hoping to see something. Let me tell you, for most of the day 25 yards would have been a long shot. Still, any day in the woods is a good one.

Joe, I know what you're saying about the NRA. For years they've been saying we should support them because they are "the biggest gorilla in the room". Let's face it, a voting block of 3 million IS power. Especially, when the past several elections have been won by what...a few thousand votes? Unfortunately, NRA/ILA has taken the tack of compromising and trying to give the illusion of being all for it's members and gun rights. Then manage to pull a bonehead manuever like supporting a bill that would take away veteran's ability to own firearms if they've had mental health issues. I'll bet the majority of us that made the military a career or have served would qualify.

The comments about people basing their perceptions/decisions based on a narrow band of observed events is darned accurate. We see it all the time. Part of that may be that we are creatures shaped by what we see and our experiences. The majority become single issue voters, etc., because they no longer have a frame of reference to look at a bigger picture. I'd like to think that I am capable of those observations. Frankly, what I see scares the hell out of me. Everyone is worried about radical Islam. As they should be, but it's NOT the only threat. How about closing the borders, illegal aliens, and a government spun out of control. Add those things in and it truely becomes a terrifying picture. Personally, I've felt that it does us no good to go toe to toe with radical Islam when we are losing the war at home and on our borders. Hell, maybe I'm just being an alarmist, but what I see reminds me of a pack of suicidal lemmings. In this case they all know they are going to go over the cliff, but all of them are pushing and shoving to be first! Sorry, you hit a real nerve there.

The Crandon, WI shooting incident. I was under the impression that you had to be 21 to be a sworn police officer. These are the same folks that want to disarm us? Right...

That young officer showed ZERO judgement even going to the party. Of course we expect judgement from some fruitcake that thinks shooting six people is OK? How the heck did he ever get into law enforcement in the first place?

Well, tomorrow is chores day. Then reloading and getting ready for range day on Thursday. We are going to give my G.A. Precision AR-10 a workout. May take my bolt gun, too. Then some serious pistol work on the North Range. All in all I'm enjoying my weeks vacation. Taking wife to the coast for the weekend. Just us...no critters. Have a live in critter sitter for now...

Joe, let us know whether you're a horse husband or not. With a bit of luck she'll only have bought you a Glock!

My best to all.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, October 10, 2007, at 09:05:16 (ZULU)

Local news had a few points on the Crandon shooting that I thought were very interesting.According to Channel 6 News in Milwaukee the State min requirements to become a Deputy Sheriff is ya need to be at least 18 yrs of age and complete 13 weeks of training.The other thing they mentioned was the kid never took a psych exam.First reports claimed the kid was taken out by a SWAT shooter...but it seems that the kid also had 2 or 3 non lethal gunshot wounds to the chin and were fired at very close range and the only lethal wound was fired from a distance,entering the right side of the head.There was only one kid to survive,he was the last one fired on and was hit 3x listed as fair condition.

If 13 weeks is all ya need,Where do I sign up? Just about every other city or county wants a college certificate with a mininum of 65 credits.

I think the family's lawyers are gonna be lookin really close at that county's policy,and I can see a few millions in the families future.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, October 10, 2007, at 12:12:05 (ZULU)

"You need to put the photos in a single line, and in an order, so we can just click and walk through, without going back and forth.

Do you wanna adopt me and Ruggus Rattus - we come with a great collection of guns, loading shit, and a way cool airboat ;))))) ..."

CatShooter: LOL-- ya mean one of those picture gallery thingies.. You must think I'ma web publisha o' somethin' like dat... I'll work on making those more easier (like that english ey).

Airboat -- ya right - as dry as it is down here - you'll need to put wheels on it... Kim says it's okay to adopt You and Scooter - as long as you don't mind mucking the horse stalls, mowing grass, painting fences, pulling weeds, err - you get the idear....

Take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 00:27:02 (ZULU)

Gee Whiz!! Sniper Scope is coming. Can't miss at 2000 yards. Scope does it all.

Click on link.

CDC'
Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 01:52:36 (ZULU)

Ken,

I would like to see a floor plan/over head view of the lay-out...

Are you gonna put a concrete/steel ceiling on the gun vault/safe room?

Looks huge! (and expensive!)

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 03:38:50 (ZULU)

Wilson Combat has some new AR mounts. Might be worth a look. $80 looks kinda high to me, but I'm cheap. Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 03:59:02 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"Gee Whiz!! Sniper Scope is coming. Can't miss at 2000 yards. Scope does it all. Click on link."<

I think that scope will be a great improvement!!!

It says it will improve hits by 10 fold - so you take a shooter group that has a 90%+ kill ratio per round (9+ dead BG's per 10 rounds), and improve it by ten fold, and you get 90+ dead enemies per 10 rounds, right?? What can be better than that. I mean, that seems like what they are saying... you da maff guy, you tell me!

And dis stuff about missing by 1.5 meters at a whopping 400 yds (dats 5 feets ;)... I mean what's with dat? Are dem snipin' guys shooting civies during' hurricane Katrina? That's some major kinda wind, dudes.

And all a dis stuff is figured out by a guy named Deepak Varshneya - now I don' wanna sound like I'm stereotyping somebody, but I don' exactly associate some guy named "Deepak Varshneya" with snipin' an' long range shootin' stuff.

And dis "Deepak Varshneya" is gonna build a scope dat will figgure out alla wind stuff for a mile and a half, so you get a one shot kill on 9+ guys with one shot???

Alla you snipie guys... don't worry, your job is safe.

Ol' Deepak Varshneya has swindled the US gubberment out of a million dollars in free grant money. He's gonna live in high clover for a long time... he can put alla his family on the grant's payroll too.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 12:43:01 (ZULU)

Seen on the web this morning...

>"Watching those hunting shows is a little like reading Playboy.

Those big racks are out there but they're few and far between.

They're easier to spot than to get one of your own, and if you do get one, it usually costs quite a bit to mount it."<

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 16:08:05 (ZULU)

Re: Sniper Quest 2007

Be sure and check out the Photo Album I just posted on the Badlands Tactical Forum. Click this link:

http://www.badlandstactical.net/home.htm

Then go to the Forum. You may have to register.

The link you're looking for is Sniper Quest 2007 Photo Album. Its in the "General Board" section.

After that, check out the link....Stress Fire.

click my name for a sample photo

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 17:41:31 (ZULU)

Catman,

Thats about the average wind drift out here in South Dak. @ 400yds.(HA)

Pat
Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 20:11:56 (ZULU)

Travis: If that's what Wilson calls a "low" scope mount, I'd hate to see the high one. And I'm talking about the height above bore, not the price.

Jim - if you're reading this, how's the back doing? Hope it went well.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 20:23:29 (ZULU)

CatDude: Your tax $$ at work.

CDC'
Thursday, October 11, 2007, at 20:30:33 (ZULU)

Lito,

Did you get the article?

Pat II
Friday, October 12, 2007, at 00:20:36 (ZULU)

CDC'

>Gee Whiz!! Sniper Scope is coming. Can't miss at 2000 yards. Scope does it all.<

Ain't technology grand??

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, October 12, 2007, at 04:46:19 (ZULU)

Pat-II...

It came today - thanks!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 12, 2007, at 07:27:49 (ZULU)

It just occurred to me that the picture that I posted in my previous post "http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/413/img0510tt3.jpg" was taken at the Bruce Robinson UKD Range @ Badlands (hint: you just might need a Mildot Master when you shoot there). Look to the right of the far right shooter and you'll see this. (click my name for a close-up)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, October 12, 2007, at 17:17:33 (ZULU)

Pat-II

I read the article and it has some interesting thoughts.

I like the idea of wrapping the undersized nylon brush with a soaked patch. It gives you the pressure against the bore for cleaning, and it allows you to run the patch through 5 or 10 times, instead of it just falling off at the end of the barrel.

I think the idea of greasing a barrel in not too good, unless you are going to store it for years. And putting Moly-grease in a barrel... well, lets not go there ;) ;)

I also thought that his comments about overly aggressive chemicals like Sweets, have merit. It would take a lot of work (and money) to test it out, but I tend to err on the safe side with $500-$700 barrels.

I have liked #9 for several reasons... first, I have been using it a long time, and I tend to be brand loyal, if they don't screw me, and there's nothing REAL better around - I use Castrol oil for the same reason - I used it when I raced moto-cycles, and still do.

Second, I love the smell, and so do people that don't even know what it is - I have had people ask what after shave I was wearing ;) ;)

And third, I can leave plug a barrel, fill it with #9, and leave it for weeks if I get distracted (which i often do) and it will not damage anything - that can't be said for most of the others.

I noted that he didn't mention bronze brushes, and I am (reluctantly) reaching that point too.

There is something so satisfying about running that big-assed bronze brush through the barrel - it makes you FEEL like you are cleaning the bore - a "visceral" kinda thing like brushes and brown soap.

But it is pretty clear to me now that nylon brushes are definitely the way to go - either naked, or wrapped with a wet patch., and bronze brushes are part of the problem.

He mentioned reverse electroplating - the "Otter's thingie". A friend offered me one - he had all the chemicals and all the center wires for it. I think he spent over $200 for all the stuff (extra chemicals too). He said it was such a pain in the ass that he never used it.

So, thanks for sending it to me - I will take some of it into account - especially the part about a patch on a smaller nylon brush.

What the hell do I do with about 47 million bronze brushes??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 12, 2007, at 22:25:32 (ZULU)

Can the gunsmiths among us answer a question? The wrist of a Model 77 .338win split. The recoil seemed to be more than that skinny little waist of walnut was able to bear. Is there some way to drill a hole into the split then use that hole to inject something like Accrugalss or epoxy into the void thus fixing the thing better than new?

CDC'
Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 04:40:11 (ZULU)

Thanks for stopping by over there 'Lito. I should keep my mouth shut I guess 'cuz now I'm known to all as the guy who was full of shit LOL. I heard about it on our local club user group too. Oh well.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 05:01:57 (ZULU)

CDC,

I've had good luck using Brownell's "Stock Repair Pin Kit". You put Acraglas, Acra-Quick, or Acra-20 in the crack and clamp it tightly. You then drill a hole across the crack with one of the bits in the kit. Next you coat one of the brass pins with the Acraglas and run it into the hole with a variable speed drill. After everything has cured you cut off the pin and dress the ends.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 05:18:45 (ZULU)

CDC...

Sorry to hear of your hunting trip problems.

Did you ever find out why the cartridge stuck in the chamber?

The original Acraglass stuff is the perfect solution for it - that's what it was originally designed for.

Just spread the split, get the Acraglass into the crack, as much as possible, clamp it, and wipe off the ooze.

The repair will be stronger than the surrounding wood.

Then there is also Numrich, that has tons of Winchester factory stocks - probably one for the 77.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 07:16:50 (ZULU)

Doc and Pablo: Thanks for the info.

Pablo: "Did you ever find out why the cartridge stuck in the chamber?"

Not yet. That's a good project for after the season.

CDC'
Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 11:40:11 (ZULU)

'lito,

Oi vey man...you know I'm wondering if them solvent fumes are getting to you..One, don't compare cleaning a 17 to any other cartridge tother than the 22rf..Phospor bronze brushes work better than nylon. Ok, I'll give you a little treat. When we pull the buttons thru 50 cals, barrels are cleansed of the grease and placed in heat treating oven to stress relieve. This process also oxidises the steel and anything else left in the bore. So they must be cleaned before they are lapped. It's crusty, gunky, cruddy stuff. So I came up with a concoction of kroil oil mixed with lapping compound(not JB's but I'll let you know), knowing the crust is harder than the steel underneath. I patch thru one wet kroil. Then, I take a 50 cal BRONZE brush, wrap one patch around it, and wet it with kroil/abrasive mixture. 20 scrubs. Patch out and voila, ready for lapping. Try that. If the patch makes the brush too tight, either wreck the brush, or use one size down, as you are using this for scrubbin phase one.

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 15:45:57 (ZULU)

JR...

Diga me' Hombre... ¿Que es "Oi vey mano"?

HA!

But anyway, I'm not cleaning out slag from a furnace (yeah yeah, I know... it gets "hot" in there... but most of the non-metallic residue is incompletely burned nitrocellulose).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 17:03:08 (ZULU)

CatGuy: I lied. The bullets are seated to touch the lands. The brass is unfired factory Remington. When I sized, I did not touch the shoulder. Crud on the bolt face jammed the bullet into the lands.

Got sloppy.

CDC'
Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 17:22:35 (ZULU)

Cat-dude'ski:

Hell for all I know Oi vey is either italian or yiddish..from now on I'll use the ulster Irish intro terminoligy: Jazus mae...

You is cleaning a furnace. Get the shit out first, and you will find yourself back in cleaning territory. From what I've seen from your posts, you are definitely in need of chimney sweeping adages. Damn you, ha, are I going to have to find board near your locale to show you this stuff?

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 17:38:26 (ZULU)

On the other hand, I just got back from the range session with the .280. After the sight-in, I put a target at 400yd. In the sitting slung position 3.25" three shot group centered about an inch from desired point of impact.

I have a witness.

CDC'
Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 21:11:19 (ZULU)

Guys,

I've had great luck using patches cut from one of those greasy yellow cloths(either the silicone gun & reel cloth {Item no.GC-220} or lead away patches{Moel no. LP-199}, both from Kleen Bore) over a stiff black nylon brush.

The bristles are thicker than those on the white nylon brushes. Not certain of maker, probably Kleen bore or Pro-shot. Works great for shoving the lead out of the barrel on my Sig 220 factory barrel. That bastard hangs onto more lead than any other gun I own.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 23:04:38 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"I have a witness."<

Your dog doesn't count ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, October 13, 2007, at 23:05:16 (ZULU)

Travis:

Brownells sells black bristle nylon brushes in various diameters.

The funny yellow (impregnated) cloth is also sold in large sheets as Miracle Cloth. Sometimes see it in grocery stores or hardware/automotive supply (Canadian Time chain) around here for good prices.

Here is an online vendor:

http://miraclecloth.net/

Three (3) Miracle All Purpose Polishing Cloths

6 x 9 inch (15 mm x 23 mm)

(US$17.85 Value)

US$11.95 Plus $5.00 U.S. Shipping.

another:

http://budk.com/product.asp?pn=36%20RIM03&sid=FROOGLE&EID=X1814001&catalog_code=1X814&bhcd2=1192329311

$2.99 per sheet.

Great stuff for removing lead in bores and polishing revolver cylinder faces on stainless. It *will* remove blueing, so proceed accordingly. Nice for de-leading shotgun barrels too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 03:44:52 (ZULU)

Lito,

Cleaning bores certainly seems to be an emotioanal issue with a lot of folks. I also liked that article for a number of reasons. I agree with you about wet patching with a worn brush and have used that technique since I have read that article.

I don't think I will ever stop using bronze brushes. After cleaning the way I do and looking though a borescope at my bores, I am happy with the results and my rifles shoot better than I do.

Lito: The pleasant scent of Hoppe's number is pleasing to me as well and large number of my aquaintances who are shooters as well. I have never messed with revered electoplating, but a good friend who I have a lot of respect for as a shooter swears that is the way to go if you really want to get all the fouling out. For me personally, too complicated for a backwords country**** such as myself and I am already happy with the results.

I also use Sweets and occasionally remington bore cleaner. I use sweet if I am positive I am going to have the time and not get interupted. The direction on the bottle say do not leave it in the barrel for longer than 15 minutes. This tells my pea little brain "do not leave this stuff in the barrel longer than 15 minutes".

Glad you enjoyed tha article.

Pat II
Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 04:52:19 (ZULU)

Pat-II

I know the reverse plating works on metal deposits. It's just such a humongous pain in the ass to use.

I guess where I'm going with this thing as I try stuff, and think about it, is this.

There are two groups of cleaners (and sub groups in those)... the petroleum bodied and the water bodied (the stuff that the cleaning agents are in).

The big problem with water based cleaners is that they rust your stick! (Martha says "... and that's a very bad thing").

And if you think your new stainless riffle won't rust, don't bet your money on it - a good friend shot a sniper match in WV, and got caught in the rain on the last day. He figured he would pack up and head home, and clean the rifle when he got home. When he opened the case 13 hours later, the stainless was covered in a light coat of rust.

He cleaned it with bronze wool and then took the bronze coating (the gun was now gold colored) with Hoppe's #9... but it left him in shock.

But this is the problem with water based cleaners - with petroleum based cleaners like Hoppe's, there is no water... so you can leave it in the barrel forever, plus, when you are finished, you don't need to run an oiled patch through the barrel, cuz it has a light coat of a light oil-like stuffie (kerosene?).

I had one rifle (stainless barrel) that was so dirty, for sooooo long, that a white growth was seen inside of it. I plugged the barrel, and filled it with #9, and let if sit for a week... and it came out perfectly clean, and undamaged.

Water based cleaners can be faster - for example, straight 28% ammonia will remove copper in about 60 seconds, (and remove the linings of your lungs in half that time, household ammonia is about 1%).

Petroleum based cleaners work slower, because the ionic exchange that causes the copper to convert to something that comes out with a patch... is slower in the presence of a petroleum base.

There is probably not ONE universal "best" cleaner, or cleaning method. Cleaning methods vary, and cleaning needs vary also.

When I'm at the range and testing groups, I want to get the barrel 80-90% clean in 5 minutes.

When I'm home, I want it 100% clean, and a couple of hours is OK, as long as most of the time is soaking, not scrubbing.

I loaded up a bunch of ammo this weekend, and I'm off to the range on Monday or Tuesday... making little groups and DIRTY riffles ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 12:00:33 (ZULU)

Pablo: My dog would make it TWO witnesses. 53 year old Parkinson's sufferer with a 30 year old sporter shooting Nosler Partitions shoots a group like that?

That is probably the luckiest three shots I've ever fired. I'm framing the target and hanging it on my wall.

CDC'
Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 12:20:40 (ZULU)

Cleaning country.......

When I discovered Montana Extreme nylon brushes I threw out my bronze wire things. They are tough as nails. I'm not near as anal about cleaning as I was when I first came on site many moons ago. As a guy said on another site; cleaning after every string is like wiping your butt after you take a leak.....just isn't necessary. If you have to clean after every string there is a problem somewhere. The most important lesson I learned is that a quality barrel cleans lickety split and cleaning isn't such a chore anymore. My new Lilja barrels exhibit little or no copper even after several hundred rounds. I can pee down the barrel and clean what little black stuff is in there. Then I just run a patch of Montana Extreme bore conditioner in the tube and put it to bed in the safe.

Butner matches......

600 yard weekend next weekend and 1000 yard weekend the following weekend. Then for me I'm headed to the range with a couple of 40X 22's for a couple of months of practice.

Paintball....

Grandson blew up about 400 paintballs yesterday....for a 4 year old he was hitting most everything he shot at. Next year he gets a new Cricket 22 and we start having some real fun!

Bolt out!

Bolt
Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 13:36:22 (ZULU)

Bolt,

A buddy of mine runs a youth rifle program. (Hit me with an e-mail & I'l tell you where if you're interested in knowing: I don't want to attract anti-nuts by saying here) I help when I can get there. Those Crickets are GREAT for the young ones!

We hosted a BSA camp for a troop out of Knoxville, and it was outstanding! The leaders said it was all they'd hoped and more. The kids all got to shoot (rifle and shotgun), and word of our program is spreading through that BSA counsel. You guys will appreciate how few & far between oportunities for kids (esp. Boy Scouts) to shoot are. If a kid doesn't have parents who shoot, or if they're just too busy making a living, there's virtualy no other option.

Anyway, we're trying to raise the next generation of riflemen. The club has supported us in a big way: buying rifles and supplies for the program, and forcing availability of facilities in preference to so other activities. We've got Crickets, Romainian (med size) training sticks, a cpl ofd Savages, H&Rs from CMP, and a cpl of 1903 Anschutz rifles: good selection for a veriety of younguns.

Cleaning country:

Have to throw a shout-out for OUTER's Foaming Bore Cleaner. (I learned about this by reading JR's website) I wet patch with HOPPES #9 until the gunk is out (3-4 patches), then fill the bore with this foam, go have a frothy adult beverage (my favorite part), come back later & push foam out of the bore with a patch wet with #9. The first time I did this I kept looking at the bore worried: copper seemed gone, but it was soo black. Then I got a white patch near the bore & realized it was black because it was so reflective: stick a slip of white paper in the bore, and it reflected white all the way down. Copper, crap, everything gone except mirror smooth steel. ...my $.02, worth all you paid for it.

SSG Mac
Hickory, where no shooters reside (aparently), - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 15:18:23 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Does anyone know where I can get abt 1K of LAKE CITY 7.62 brass. The standard machine gun brass is fine: I extensively work it, and sort for weight regardless.

I'm looking for older stuff (the last cpl of years LC has put out some real trash trying to meet the Army's needs... I mean the alloy has been to hell & gone for QA).

Mostly, since ebay quit allowing anything to do with guns, I just can't find it anywhere. Gunbroker doesn't seem to have it as yet. I've got a load worked up that works well for me, and I hate to start all over with a (more expensive) commercial brass.

Thanks in advance.

SSG Mac
NC is truly scitzoid where gun laws are concerned., Damn I miss TN., - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 15:35:06 (ZULU)

I've a Husqvarna rifle that needs a rear sight. Need to know where to look for parts for this firearm. I believe it's a Model 1640 it's in 308. The dove tail piece is there , and it has two holes taped in it. The sight part is not with it.

Gary Kaney
NW, ILL, - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 15:46:43 (ZULU)

SSG Mac,

You might try Bartlett's reloading supplies...website is www.gibrass.com

Bravo,

Tom has finished up the Long Range Hunter's Course, and his stick did fine! And he and the rest of the class had a very learning experience on wind!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 16:36:45 (ZULU)

SSG Mac...

>"The first time I did this I kept looking at the bore worried: copper seemed gone, but it was soo black. Then I got a white patch near the bore & realized it was black because it was so reflective: stick a slip of white paper in the bore, and it reflected white all the way down. Copper, crap, everything gone except mirror smooth steel. "<

Same thing happened to me with the 30 cal twelve grove barrel I was talking about a few weeks ago...

When I was finished cleaning it, it was spookie - it looked BLACK like it was blued steel... but it was stainless. Turned out to be a mirror finish. If you were an ant, you could go inside and comb your hair in it - it is the most unusual barrel I have ever had.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 16:41:31 (ZULU)

Gary...

The Husqvarna rifles were made by FN. Husq hasn't sold rifles in years.

But the sight arangement you have is a standard set-up.

Get a Brownell's catalogue (free at 1-800-741-0015), and find a replacement that will fit.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 16:45:27 (ZULU)

Bobby,

Thanks, that's one of the sites I watch. When he gets some 308 in you have to move fast (like trying to buy 175 SMKs from Widener's). I keep missing it when he's got some; just have to be more attentive I guess. I'll be going to IWQ this month... have to arrange to be elswhere when everyone anounces "no brass, no ammo" Heh heh heh...

Lito,

That was the best surprise I ever got cleaning a rifle! I know a lot of people here don't like Tubb's final finish, but I used it on that stick as part of a standard break-in (fire once - clean, repeat... in my case, until the Tubbs kit was gone). For all I know everyone may be right about Tubbs FF, but I ended up with a rifle that'll shoot 1/2moa when I do my part. (and the mirror finish mentioned before).

SSG Mac
Home of the Free, because of the brave, - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 18:38:17 (ZULU)

Lito

I'll give Brownells a call monday. All i want to do is be able to sell it.

I thought about putting a K series Weaver on it, but decided against that.

It will make a good deer rifle for a wife, son or grandson and that's the only reason i want it presentable.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, October 14, 2007, at 23:00:50 (ZULU)

SSG MAC go here: http://www.scharch.com/ I've gotten both 7.62 and 5.56 from them. In the 7.62 the greater majority, 85-90%, was LC with a bit of other arsenals thrown in. GREAT people, GREAT service and responses!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 03:22:09 (ZULU)

Modern Liberian combat troops in action!

This one put me in tears...

... read the text, but don't have coffee or soda at the keyboard!!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 04:42:00 (ZULU)

misfire!

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 05:46:16 (ZULU)

'Lito-the rest of us would enjoy much more betterer if you included the link.

I may have seen some of those before. "Sights.....we don't need no steeeeeeking sights!" The mojo man done tol them it's the noise that makes the other dudes fall dead.

WR Moore
Monday, October 15, 2007, at 05:46:43 (ZULU)

CDC: A hanging target is great for conversation. That M4 I built made a 100 yd zero target that i stuck on my wall in CFLCC HQ; when asked and I referred to it that is was a zero target--I often was told that I ought to shoot at least three rounds to be sure I was zeroed. I would tell them that I was pretty sure it was zeroed, since there were five bullets in those two ragged holes (more of a figure-8). Usually, I'd also hear how that was "pretty good" for 25 meters...heheheh. Yeah, that one was special. The M4, not the target:))

SSG Mac: Don't be such a stranger around here.

Patched brushes: I thought everybody did that...was taught that back in the mid 80s, and never questioned it.

After much labor and even more delays (or wife-directed distractions)---my new workshop is complete. OK, so it was done a while ago--but i kept going with little custom eye-candies. The epoxy paint (garage floor) may not be the answer for work surfaces--but there is the 7 day full cure thing to wait on. It does seem a bit soft though, and maybe not as adherent as I was hoping. If it doesn't set up better--I may dump some clear coat on it (same stuff, only clear). As for ammenities, I have broadband connections, a phone and satellite TV built into the room, more shelf space than you would believe, great lighting (recessed spots and 8 bars of flourescent) all around---and plenty of outlets on a 20 amp circuit. I got seriously carried away with this project---and justified it as practice for the major remodel job she wants for the main house areas. In all, my gun shop is freakin' nice!!! My safes are recessed into walls and have provisions for flush mounted doors to be built later that will look like "wall." For now, they have brass fitting that look out of place on recessed wall--it is all blended to match. And, the framing around them is 2x6 laminated and cross braced--if you want to dig them out to cut them open, bring a tow truck and about 100 yards of cable! Yeah, they are now a part of this house. If i ever move, i will buy a nicer and larger one anyway...

Tomorrow I will set up the press.

Joe M
Monday, October 15, 2007, at 07:24:57 (ZULU)

WAY cheaper than buying a full auto. CLICK.

Also, was wondering-is high speed internet available through satellite service? If so, from whom? Looks like we're gonna buy Dad's place, now that he's gone.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 08:08:13 (ZULU)

Check these out. No reason I'd possibly NEED one, but if I had an extra $20,000, I'd consider it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NxHj1R04g

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=95759

http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 08:36:04 (ZULU)

Click to see one BIG ASS shark.

(Yes, I'm bored. Insomnia SUCKS!)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 09:10:29 (ZULU)

JoeM: Congrats on the setup!!! - so How about some pic's?

Since CatShooter was whining about all the clicking he was having to do to review my pics the other day, I've learned how to put them into a photo album as a power point slide show. Ya - I know it's simple - but I ain't no web publisha as I sed earlier. The site is updated.

Click on my name if you want to see some shop pics mo' betterly organized. You'll need to provide a username/password. Shoot me an email and I'll provide the access

JoeM: If you want, shoot some pics of your shop - I'll put them into a photo album and put them into a place where you can provide the access to them as you see fit....

Other stuff: Ever wonder how busy snipercountry is? We've turned on a stat's tool. Checkout: http://www.snipercountry.com/awstats.html

The current run covers one day. It gets updated daily, late in the evening. I can see how the hits will pile up really quick. All the MacIntosh visits are CatShooter's insomnia (running for cover) :))

take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 11:23:07 (ZULU)

Travis: Depends on what you mean by "high-speed".

We have DirecWay service here on the ranch. Optimally, we get about 700KB downlinks, and about a tenth of that going up, but it's heavily dependent on system loading. Usual downlink speed is more like 150K.

Pretty reliable, but degraded by heavy rain.

http://www.hughesnet.com

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 13:06:55 (ZULU)

WR Moore...

>" 'Lito-the rest of us would enjoy much more betterer if you included the link."<

Yeah, yeah, go ahead and pick... find the LITTLE THINGS wrong with my post. ;)

OK...

Modern Liberian combat troops in action!

This one put me in tears...

... read the text, but don't have coffee or soda at the keyboard!!!

http://www.fmft.net/archives/cat_military.html

There, are you happy NOW?? ;))

Sorry - I saw that in the middle of the night when most of the neurons were OTL.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 14:49:51 (ZULU)

JoeM.....incoming mail, no attachments, no germs. I asked that last question before I read your last post, consider it answered! Now, you know why I'm considering DC's offer, I'd like to build a kick-ass gun room/study, then add a head, kitchen and bunkroom so I can live next to it! Boudicca is still waffling, so I gave her 30 days to make up here mind, then I'm outta here. The perfect house.....a gunnroom with an attached garage.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 15:55:50 (ZULU)

'Lito,

That was damned funny!

JoeM, saw your email but haven't gotten as far as reading. Just got back from 7-days of 'guerilla' diving.... ~20 dives in 5-days. I'll get back to you 2-nite.

Duman
Decompression is for sissies....., - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 16:23:41 (ZULU)

Chuck, greetings from the old broke butt. Oh well, I'm resting and doing what I can for now. Sounds like your pondering a better set-up than mine. (gun room) Go for it! I won't be too jealous ;)

Yell if you need anything. Come visit when you can. I will provide the beer and cigar.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 18:09:10 (ZULU)

Gun room, hell! I want a gun house w/living quarters! When shopping for a gun safe, I keep thinking, if I get too big a safe, I'll see it as a challenge to fill it! I just don't wanna buy too small, and end up filling it up in a year.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 15, 2007, at 19:14:51 (ZULU)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301728,00.html

The question is.... run or fight?

medicjim
Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 01:53:01 (ZULU)

Travis...

>" Gun room, hell! I want a gun house w/living quarters!"<

Give me an old red brick factory building on a river, with tools and guns, and work room - and in the corner, a cot, microwave and flat screen tv, and I'll be happy!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 02:27:27 (ZULU)

OK, I'll bite:

Run or Fight is the question.

The answer depends on what your mission is. I live in an area with a LOT of hispanic activity (including MS13), and some muslim presence. I've thought this through.

As I see it my personal mission is defined by a)my duty to my family who depend on me, b)my duty to my country , c)my duty to myself as a man, and d)what the law in my area will countenance on the part of a private citizen. (You do your family no good by doing the right thing only to get jailed for it) You can see that the mission will be different for different people.

-It is part of God's mercy to me (it absolutely is to some others) that I have loved ones whose safety depends on me-

What I have come to is: eyes open (that's EYES OPEN), act within the law, be prepared to kill anyone I meet.

When the threat gets too close, or something just doesn't feel right, GUARD MISSION kicks in: get the family to a safe place, gather S2 as possible & report. Pay attention to what does/doesn't get acted on. File away all for later analysis. With dependants, that analysis is aimed at whether or not to relocate.

...Once again back to 'fight or run'. The yard stick is my ability to complete the mission: that being my family's safety, then defense of the Constitution, then whatever the local Sheriff decides to think about it.

I claim no special insight, and I'll certainly listen to other's opinions/analysis. This is just where I've come after watching things go down myself, and watching the news.

Yeah, I know I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?!?

Loading Question:

I'm preping some Lake City match brass from the '70s. I used Birchwood Casey brass case cleaner on them & they came nice and clean... on the outside. The inside has -I swear- rust like residue. WTH?!? Can anyone clue me in to what this is? It comes off onto a q-tip looking, again, like rust. Did Lake City use some odd powder in the match stuff back then, or have these just laid around in a rust bucket? I bought about 100rds off a guy on ebay before they shut the gun related stuff down. The outsides have some stains, but nothing like what's inside.

Thanks in advance.

SSG Mac

SSG Mac
House of WAR, - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 02:46:08 (ZULU)

SSG Mac,

You left it in there too long. The stuff is almost exactly the same color as the rouge for a polishing wheel, right?

You get the same thing from soaking brass in white (clear) vinegar. Cleans just as well, cost of about $1/gallon. No hazardous chemicals. The red stain won't want to come off in the tumbler, either. That's because brass is made mostly of Zinc and Copper, as I recall, and the Zinc has been eaten away.

My best results, with straight wall cases, anyway, came from a short soak in warm vinegar then running the marshmallow looking felt wheel on my dremel down in there. The Q-tip size is great on primer pockets.

One note, however, if you use the dremel method is that the vinegar is only marginally better than a HOT water soak, preferably with a very small amount of mild cleanser. The wet methods other than Iosso, birchwood casey, and vinegar did not leave any type of stain.

Have any of you tried ammonia, or other substances to clean cases? I'm startin' to feel like 'Lito here, playing Mr. Wizard.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 04:29:40 (ZULU)

Finger:

I'll be down there Wed/Thur/Friday this week. I'll haul over to your homestead while in your AO. Glad you're still using oxygen.

JoeM:

Thanks for the input. 30 years ago, I would be all over this like white on rice. I'm a bit more circumspect, now. Not a lot, but a bit. I'm getting older, and set in my ways, and part of this is to break out of that and stay in front of the bow wave....methinks there's some really seriously ugly stuff coming our way, and I want to be flexible enuff to play. Part of it is that I like to do the things that I'm afraid of.

SSgMac. What part of MexAmerica do you live in, again? If necessary, I guess we can posse up if it comes to that. Seems like the Mexican border is now somewhere up around Grandfield, Oklahoma these days. I actually got complained on the other day because I got scolded by some chonkla-wearing, WIC-dependent Latina about how I should speak Spanish to make her life easier, and I told here that this was, at least temporarily, still America and she should use her bilingually printed welfare papers to learn English.....

Cleaning country....I just shoot the Howas until they get squirrelly, then clean them for a few minutes to get them back under 1moa. I'm lazy. It works. OH, well....

Run if you can, then turn and fight like hell and make 'em pay.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 05:26:24 (ZULU)

Travis,

Your best case cleaning is done with a wet tumbler. Remember the Thumbler's Tumbler? Lortone makes good wet tumblers as well. Use a mixture of water, 409, and lemon juice. Mix ratio is 1 cup water, 1/4 cup 409 and 1/8 cup lemon juice. Let it run for a couple of hours and then rinse good with cold water. Outside is bright and shiny and the inside is relatively clean; not perfect, but it'll do.

Also, Brownell's sells a bucket of 3mm ceramic beads and a polishing solution that goes in with the beads and water. Works pretty good, but the beads are a PITA to get out of the cases and primer pockets.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 05:40:59 (ZULU)

case prep country:

I use corncob w/polishing agent to clean cases in a Lyman Turbo 1200. Used Flitz and something similar from German mfgr w/good results. Have some Mother's Mag Cleaner standing by for next cycle - John Shaw recommended it years ago.

http://www.mothers.com/products/productcatalog/wheelprod.html

Mag & Aluminum Polish

This is our legendary metal polish. Mothers®’ secret formula balances a brilliant shine with easy use for aluminum wheels and parts, brass, alloys and accessories. Application is just a matter of a clean cloth and a little elbow grease. Mothers® Mag & Aluminum polish is strong enough to put a shine to the most neglected metals and gentle enough to use on a regular basis.

#05100, 5 oz. #05101, 10 oz.

I've read that a lot of ammonia can be a problem, makes the brass brittle.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 05:50:14 (ZULU)

...and don't forget the final touch.... a stand up urinal next to the loading bench ;))

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 06:09:15 (ZULU)

'Lito,

"Give me an old red brick factory building on a river, with tools and guns, and work rome - and in the corner, a cot, microwave and flat screen tv, and I'll be happy!"

My wife ain't wised up and left my crippled ass yet. I still have to have a house. That's why we're not living in a 35 foot double slide out 4 horse trailer next to a huge shop/indoor arena.

MK4,

Just where in hell have you seen a reclining or sit down urinal? HA!

I'm kinda getting to the point that brass don't REALLY need cleaned until it's been shot two or three times or got wet. Rifle ammo only gets two firings before cleaning. I noticed with my .45 acp ammo, if you fire it four times without cleaning, you start to get noticeable velocity spreads. With .45 Colt, it starts getting sticky in the cylinders. (Keep in mind, I'm staying around max loads for standard revolvers and shooting Rugers. I ONLY have Ruger centerfire revolvers, which can take way more stress than others.)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 07:15:01 (ZULU)

One lucky son of a gun! Click.

Looks like they need to break out a box of bronze stars for the medical team!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 09:55:10 (ZULU)

Brass Cleaning

Wal Mart sells a product called NU FINISH ,it's in there automotive dept. I put about 4 tablespoons in my corn cob media, works great.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 10:27:21 (ZULU)

Hey all, just chiming in here.

Just wanted to let everyone know that I won my case(s) and finally recieved a cheque yesterday. I gotta say, 63 weeks of wages all at one time, seems a bit nice. But, I gots to pay off what I owe, and buy a house.

Side note though, I do have a Crusader on order. As in, there is one there, reserved for me. Now I just have to send the funds. YaY.

Also getting a 700P for the missus. Things are most definitely looking up, and it has been a long long time. It's still sinking in, ya know.

Hope to see you on the range(s).

God Bless,

Sean T.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 14:00:05 (ZULU)

Good for you Sean !!

Just don't blow all the monies . LOL

Brass Cleaning:

I like Lito's 50/50 blend of White Issos and Dillions Blue.

4 to 5 capfulls of each into the Dillon with Pet store Corn Cob,throw

in the brass and in a couple of hours your good to go.

Good as GOLD !!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 18:47:11 (ZULU)

Congrats on the win, Sean. "Crusader on the way" just damn: I'm jealous! Hope you've got some pretty glass the mount on it.

Charles, I don't know where the border is now, but it's somewhere north of the NC foothills. I admire the mexican's willingness to work, but their clanish un-interest in assimilating drives me nuts. ...and the ones that get militant.... blood.. pressure..spikinnggg....

Now there's a news article lamenting the lack of work at an Iraq cemetery!!!! No I'm not making that up: http://www.newsobserver.com/505/story/738454.html (or click) If they're stretching THIS hard for some bad news things must be looking up. What a bunch of pinheads!

Many of those brass cleaning tips sound interesting. Don't know when Reckon I'll work my way throught them until I find one I like.

Later

Bill

SSG Mac
Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 19:13:49 (ZULU)

Couple of guys I shoot with have come up with a new product for the Harris bipod called Pod Claws and they replace the rubber feet on the Harris. They pretty much eliminate bounce and also mitigate recoil somewhat. Good review on another forum. Click on my name.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 20:05:33 (ZULU)

JC:

I'm using Pod Paws with my Harris Bipod.

http://zephyrdynamics.com/page2.html

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/PodPaw.asp

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=2003723&trail=16

Would be more expensive than the claws, I like them.

Come w/optional turf spikes.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 22:13:47 (ZULU)

Mother's Mag Cleaner is sold in the automotive section of Canadian Tire.

Probably in other auto-supply places in North America too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 22:25:18 (ZULU)

Man, with those Pod Paws and the spikes, I can practice my stalk and ariate (prolly spelt that wrong) my lawn at the same time!

Travis, you ain't kidding about those medical bubbas. Balls of steel.

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, United States - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 00:31:35 (ZULU)

Pod Claws..........

They workie really good. Used them at Butner with a 308 during the last F match and was 100% impressed. Rifle comes straight back with no bounce. Tried them on a 300mag, same result. Pricey but worth it IMHO.

Bio-buggers.......

Good show on History Channel right now on bio-buggers and pandemics. Damn I love disaster stuff. We need a Y2K repeat just to get the adrenalin back up again. I should have majored in Emergency Management, I feel like I already have the degree.

AR platforms........

Ifin you wanted to build a non-223 on an AR platform what caliber would you use? I'm getting bored again.

Bolt out!

Bolt
Dry as a popcorn fart in..........., NC, - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 02:09:44 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I may be selling my GAP AR10 upper in .260 (working up the courage). Email me through the roster and let me know exactly what you have in mind. I'll send some pics back.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 02:28:27 (ZULU)

RE: Removing Live Ordinance from a Live Body-

One of my mentors worked with a surgeon who wore a Navy Cross for removing a live 60mm mortar round from the chest of an ARVN soldier. This EOD web site has a few pictures.

Anyone who mixes HE and surgery has larger brass ones than this eye guy.

Doc Mac

Doc Mac
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 04:03:26 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Why would you want to part with the 260?

Bolt, are you talking a build on a .223-size, standard AR15? Cuz I've been wondering if the 6mm bullets could be made to perform in a necked-up 5.56x45 case. I figure if you are bored, why not wildcat me a round and get into commercial production:)) You'll need to figure out how heavy a bullet would still get inside a magazine, then what twist and all....but once you are done with proving the idea, why i might even get bored and buy one too!!!! heheh. On the other hand---if MedicJim will part with that GAP upper....go there. You might be able to snap it on that 308 lower you have (you do still have it, right???)

I would hope that magazines are the only significant differences between the various big cousins.

Ken H: I'll get you some pics and a sentence or two on what each actually is, with a yard stick in the shot for perspective.

I got done with the trim...and thought: "Ain't a damned right angle or straight edge in this dump." So I bought a case of latex caulk. Caulk is a novice's best friend. There ain't no more unsightly gaps and gouges. But there is a serious need for some touch up paint before I commit this to pics.

The whole gun room is built in the back end of a big-assed basement, alongside a spare bedroom that went in first. There are three rows of jackstands supporting the main beams, with the last row is now within the walls of the new rooms. But that encasing created a 1/8th-1/4 inch deviation along the 30 odd feet of the run of framing. Had to do it. Plus, I encased all the utilities as straight as I could get them, but that also made for some near 90 degree but not quite angles. Visually, you can't tell--it looks great. But to place a baseboard trim 8-footer---it is evident!!! The little stark white lines of caulking look straight enough at a glance--but they do get pretty wide in places:))

I learned a bunch---like why carpenters will build a run of framing, then cut the bottom board for doors afterwards (I did not do this)---the door will frame in this way easily, whereas I had to use a million wedges and some crazy twisting to make it work. PITA first class! Heheh. "Oh," says I; that is why they do that...

Well, the caulk (half a case, if you wondered how bad it was) is dry, and the first touch up coats are on...I'll have some pics in a day or two.

On topic: I am building myself another ghillie---one that will work in the fall woods and cornfields---a blend of greens and tans with a base of DCU. I brought back an xxsmall set of DCUs for Peanut; she is getting a ghillie too. She wants to come out with me again for deer this year, and since we're doing Bow right now, she'll need the camo. Of the three girls and the knucklehead, Nicole (aka Peanut) is the only one who can keep her mouth shut for any length of time:))

Speaking of knuckleheads: Guess who turned 18 this last month? And guess who graduated HS ahead of schedule thru summer school? And, guess who got samsonite's finest for a parting gift? Heheh...

Yeah...the first has flown. Man, that is a wake up call! FWIW, he is still planning on signing up--but he "wants to take the school year off and relax..." Apparently, he busted his ass to get done early so he could go and sit on it. Whatta moron! He gets that from me, I suppose:)) He at least graduated HS, so there is that! Ha! And he is sitting on his butt at his mom's place.

I get the call over the weekend:

Her "He won't do anything! No job, no chores, no nothing.."

Me: "Kick him out."

Her: "I can't do that."

Me: "Then shut up and deal with it."

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! After all that I went thru; the divorce, the custody fight from hell, the years of bad grades and worse attitudes, no support from her whatsoever ANd her undermining me at every chance (the old: "if dad is mean, you can come live with me" BS)---it was a hard thing but worth every minute and dollar, because in the end i glimpsed the man i hoped he could be. Now, she gets to be the mom she missed out on---only instead, she gets a shiftless roommate and unpaid cell bills! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! There is a God.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 05:12:29 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

"There is a God." .....and he has one HELL of a sense of humor!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 07:12:07 (ZULU)

*************************SPEW ALERT!********************************

Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 09:02:48 (ZULU)

*************************SPEW ALERT!********************************

Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 09:13:24 (ZULU)

********SPEW ALERT!**********

Click. I damn near pissed myself. Funny stuff. Watch the guy trying like hell to ge out of the inner tube!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 10:07:03 (ZULU)

Good read...

First pro-hunting article I have ever seen on a National Geographic.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2007-11/hunters/poole-text.html

(WR. Moore, see, I got it right this time. ;) )

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 10:38:34 (ZULU)

Travis, reckon that last one ended with a well-earned ass whuppin!

SSG Mac
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 10:58:32 (ZULU)

'Lito's lemonade stand. Click

************************SPEW ALERT**************************

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 11:56:08 (ZULU)

HOLY SHIT! Click.

Travis Morgan
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 12:09:11 (ZULU)

"MedicJim: Why would you want to part with the 260?"

This upper was built for comps... it has a heavy barrel, adjustable gas port, etc. It will hang with the long guns and double tap targets at 500 yards without a problem... but run a couple miles with it and your arms will fall off. My new build trades off some long range performance to regain "M16A2 like" mobility. I now have three uppers and one lower. I'm completely out of control, which means I'm in good company here.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 14:48:18 (ZULU)

Medic, if you decide to sell put me second in line as interested. I still have a lower not built

On another note I met with 5-11. They are nice guys and made a deal with me we all are happy with. I was impressed at how they handled this. Lamb called me and we worked something out there as well. Details will follow in near future but its all over in a good way.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 15:11:14 (ZULU)

Joe:

6mm AR has been done a few times already:

http://www.6mmar.com/

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek068.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=9&t=628808

Pick a system and reap the existing research and work already done :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 17, 2007, at 23:08:49 (ZULU)

Rod: The 6mmAR is probably a result of a problem with the 6mmx45mm---a problem I did not find when browsing those links. In fact, not much is said at all about stuffing a .243 diameter bullet into a 5.55mm case other than that it is done. OK, so what does it do out on the range???

But the 6mmAR, being a shorter, fatter case, will alter the function of the magazine slightly--if nothing more than by dropping capacity. By itself--I can live with that. The SPC was supposed to workie that way too--but other issues cropped up in reality with feeding from standard mags. Right now, with the grendel, the other 6.5mm (whazzits name?), the SPC, the 6mmAR, and any other wildcat all competing to be "the next-big-thing;" there is much hyperbola and misinformation out there.

I'll be patient: The perfect solution will find me eventually. For now, I am happy playing with 75s and 77s in 7-twist barrels. The heavier stuff isn't on my menu--as I think only deviants would single-feed an autoloader. Its just plain wrong! My curiousity about the next size up bullets was sparked by this lower sitting here, all by its lonesome. And I am looking for something that is plug-and-play.

On the horse thing: Youz guys were right, it was a horse-related expenditure. The herd had been in the barn yard eating hay off the ground--and a mare got a sand blockage and about died (me and the girls were at a family party while this was going on). So she calls a vet, on a sunday, and has him treat the mare intensively, and to do some preventative maintenance on the whole herd just in case. So that bill was rather large. Bigger than a pistol large, but not quite custom rifle large. Heheheheheheh.

MedicJim: I'd tease you about the "heavy" rifle thing---only I gots one too. And that sucka is heavy---awkwardly heavy. It is all out in front, and it makes carrying it a chore. An equally heavy rifle that is better balanced is not so much of a PITA--but these heavy barrelled AR10-types carry it all way forward...

This is something I never really gave any thought to in rifles: Balance makes a huge difference in the mere act of toting it to the FP. It's like offering to help the mortar-maggots with their load in my infantry days--they'd quickly offer up the nasty-ass baseplate, but my offer was only good for the tube itself. So, it is not necessarily the wieght--but the distibution of the weight that makes the difference. I guess I knew that...but like I said--I never applied neurons to it.

Joe M
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 02:26:34 (ZULU)

Travis: God's sense of humor has to be irony and poetic justice. I believe that--but I'd find it funny even it isn't God's work.

Bolt: Yeah! Pod paws rock! It seriously alters the shooting experience, for the better. I shot my wife's SCLE at badlands with her paws on, and it made my SPR seem like it was mounted on a moonbounce ride at a carnival. I shot it again (and again and again...) here without them, and it bounced similarly to my SPR. My only complaint is that those 12 ozs feel heavier than it is because of the forward placement.

I think the next big thing in bipods is an adapter for QD attachments of harris's bipod. He who is looking for a marketing ploy---go ahead and use this idea. And while yer at it, build me the perfect AR upper in any 24+ cal that works:)) That way, you can have the weight in a cargo pocket and just snap it on at the FP when needed. No tools needed. Yeah, i know there are other designs out there--but harris is far and away the most popular one out there. A QD attachment system for it would be handy...and, if you have the time to deploy the bipod, you have time to snap it on:))

Joe M
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 03:09:58 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Bolt was talking about Pod Claws, not Paws. If you liked the Paws you will love the Claws. Whole different animal. The Pod Claws get rid of bipod bounce and even help to lessen felt recoil. Whatever recoil there is will be straight back because of the design of the Pod Claws. The claw attachment is articulated so you can easily load the bipod and when the rifle is fired it comes straight back so you never lose sight of the target. Yeah, I know that's the way it should be, but the Claws anchor the bipod and make it easier.

Nope, I don't get anything from them. Just know the two guys that came up with the design and am trying to help them out by telling people about the product once in a while.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 05:00:26 (ZULU)

JC, I actually don't know which we have--these are articulated large footers, like a ball joint; and we've got the rubber boot overshoes. I was told what they were--but heard "paws" in my head, and so ID'd them as such. But whatever they are, they are great.

Rod: Googled the 6mm thing, using 6mm-223 Rem got the results I was missing. I guess we Americans will be damned before we refer to anything in millimeters:)) I finally found a good thread on the Oly board, and decided we need a third AR platform. Maybe a slightly longer action length and mag well. The grendal has the same issue as the 7.62x39 in an AR--larger bolt face ream and potential for cracks or worse failures. The 6mm is interesting in that you can launch an equal bullet weight a little faster than the 223 version (a short, fat vs. long, skinny thing)--but you basically get nothing I really need. I was looking for an easy way to get a bigger hammer. Also re-heard an old story long forgotten: The M249 SAW was considered for a 6mm round in its early days by the army---something I remember vaguely from my 82d days when we first opened the crates on these things. Yeah, i also wore a steel pot and ate C-rats...bottom line, I may end up with one if i trip over a used upper...but I am back to the 223 for something to stick on this lonely lower in the immediate future.

Joe M
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 05:57:23 (ZULU)

Joe:

On the QD for the Harris Bipod.

Check out Brownells Stock # 901-100-000

BIPOD SPEEDY KNOB

Mfr: TANK'S RIFLE SHOP

Fast, No-Tool Knob For Harris Bipod

Install or remove your Harris Bipod in just seconds by adding this easy-to-turn thumb knob. Mounts in place of the Harris mounting/attachment screw. Can also be used with the Harris #6A Adapter for faster bipod setting on a forend rail.

$US6.40 retail

I use that plus this on all my Harris Bipods:

100-000-326

KMW POD-LOC

Mfr: KMW LONG RANGE SOLUTIONS

No Tools Required To Lock & Unlock Bipod Swivel

Spring loaded lever replaces the Harris lock nut, provides plenty of leverage to lock or unlock the swivel using only your fingers. Provides a dust and dirt shield that protects the clutch mechanism from damage. Spring loaded lever may be parked against the stock to minimize snagging. Installation requires no modification to bipod. Used by the U.S. Military, NSN 100-09-000-2008.

SPECS: Synthetic handle, stainless steel mechanism, black, matte finish. Handle 1-1/2" (3.8cm) long. Fits Harris S-series bipods.

$US26.50 retail

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 10:45:30 (ZULU)

Anyone need some reamers? Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 12:52:48 (ZULU)

Don't buy Gas from this ass! Great billboard picturing Chavez and the CITGO logo

Here's a great billboard near Mobile, AL.

Gotta love it!

http://wkrg.com/news/article/3_letter_word_on_billboard_draws_attention/6057/

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 15:19:02 (ZULU)

Those pod-claws look intersting. I like the modular design.

http://www.phoenixtactical.com/index.html

Duman
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 15:39:43 (ZULU)

Click my name. Man charged for tasering drowning, and beating a possum with a shovel. Possum still didn't confess to anything.

I'm betting the folks that are charging him have never tried to kill a possum without a gun before. They're tough little bastards.

Travis Morgan
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 16:31:52 (ZULU)

Musharif has his hands full today. Bhutto came home, and someone (likely AQ) took a shot at her with a pair of bombs. AQ is likely, though i wouldn't put it past Musharif to try it himself. Either way, he will have to step up efforts to go after the shitbags in whats-in-here-a-stan--to 1) revenge, or 2) to keep up appearances to cover his own tracks. All the news outlets see this as a setback and terrible for everything. Ha! I see it as a good thing, especially since whoever did it missed the target and got bystanders instead. Now, the push to action will be internal and international and may just get a serious incursion into the lawless region. Wouldn't it be something if this event results in the Pakis bagging Bin Hidin'???

Jody: I've avoid Shitgo fuel for a few years now. I get the "but what about the locals that work for this company; these stores are locally owned." Whatta 'bout 'em? If it is "locally owned"--then they can contract with shell or mobil/ exxon for all I care. Or get a new line of work. If the market forces of change are so bad---why the hell don't we all just regress back to horse drawn wagons, axes, and sustinance hunting. Mark my words--when someone perfects the anti-grav hovercar, the UAW will seek an injunction against its manufacture to protect their jobs. Look, if you are employed in the manufacture of oil laterns, I feel for ya--I really do---but I am still going to flick the switch when the sun goes down...Heheh.

Joe M
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 21:18:50 (ZULU)

JoeM,

Musharif has been hanging by a thread from the beginning, he serves at the will of the military, Pakistan intelligence/secret service, and Islamist nutcases. He could be bounced any day, or any hour, if the military wanted to bounce him. Any incursion into the 'lawless' region will be something to see. Preferably, from a distance.

Turks are going to invade northern Iraq to squash a few Kurds. Nothing like another vector to deal with.

Duman
Thursday, October 18, 2007, at 21:48:47 (ZULU)

6mm SAW and other versions of the same thing have been about since the 70's. It was the project just after the SPIW/SALVO program fell on it's face and was finally dead and buried IIRC. The flechette rifle came back a little bit with the ACR program in the 80's.

My Dad runs a varient of the 6mm-250IMP called the .240 NMC, he likes it. Also out there is the 6mm WOA, which is the 6.8SPC necked down to 6mm IOT use the more aero 6mm bullets as well as reduce recoil for rapid fire strings in High Power competition. The old man has one of those as well. This cartridge is a John Holliger invention and seems rather good for the NM course of fire.

I like the plain 6.8SPC because it is best at what I consider important in the weapon's size I wish to carry. I value making people dead when I shoot them at the ranges I commonly shoot them at, which has generally been a lot closer than people want to think. YMMV, get what fits your needs.

I run basically identical setups for my SPR. One is 5.56, the other is 6.8SPC. The 5.56 is 18" Noveske, the 6.8SPC is 18" Walther barrel LWRC gas piston. Optic is 3.5-10 M3, with Troy BUI's and Surefire 961 series white light when that is called for, otherwise I stick a PEQ-2 on there.

I have to give "props" to Lito for his dark rum & lime juice recipe. Two doubles of dark Bacardi, a little sugar water and some fresh limes will cure what ails you. Near as I can tell, I've had to re-type this post about a dozen times:) S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Friday, October 19, 2007, at 08:08:39 (ZULU)

Flechette RIFLE?

Where the hell do I get one of those? No reason on earth I NEED one, but I sure want one, now!

Travis Morgan
Friday, October 19, 2007, at 10:48:38 (ZULU)

Ken M.

>"I have to give "props" to Lito for his dark rum & lime juice recipe. Two doubles of dark Bacardi, a little sugar water and some fresh limes will cure what ails you. Near as I can tell, I've had to re-type this post about a dozen times:) S/F....Ken M"<

Ken, thanks - they ARE good. But the best way to make them is with Captain Morgan's Spiced Run - then you don't need the sugar water.

You faw down, go boom! ;))

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 19, 2007, at 11:39:27 (ZULU)

KILL THE "BONG-ING"!!

Do any of you'z bums know if something is made to kill the ringing of Harris bi-pod springs after a shot.

Some kind of damper or somfin??

I hear it through contact with the stock. It's not "critical" but it's annoying.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 19, 2007, at 12:57:25 (ZULU)

Catshooter,

Try weaving a heavy rubber band (#64 from Office Depot) through the spring to absorb the 'twang. It may take some effort to make it work and not interfere with the spring.

Trajan

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornya, USA - Friday, October 19, 2007, at 18:38:11 (ZULU)

"Do any of you'z bums know if something is made to kill the ringing of Harris bi-pod springs after a shot."

A suppressor works fine... :-)

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, October 19, 2007, at 19:01:11 (ZULU)

Lito,

Have you tried sleeves on those springs? They don't flex much between open & closed, and any sleeve thick enough to contact the leg while open would stablized the spring (I'd think). Any old tubing cut to length and split longwise would go on easily, and be cheap to boot. If you wanted to get fancy you might try sewing sleeves from some neoprene fabric, but I wouldn't bother.

Mac

SSG Mac
Friday, October 19, 2007, at 20:35:08 (ZULU)

Sleeved Harris bipod springs

Haven't tried it, but if I wanted sleeves there are a lot of different sizes in heatshrink tubing available in clear and black.

Installing would be the pain, since you would have to remove and re-install a spring to sleeve it.

http://www.digikey.com among others has heat shrink tubing.

4 ft lengths would be good choice.

sugg FIT® General Purpose, Irradiated Polyolefin, Water Proof in clear.

Avail in .375, .5 and .75" dia among others.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, October 19, 2007, at 22:27:47 (ZULU)

Never noticed any sounds, is it the plastic stock reverberating? I'd expect that shrink fit electrical insulating sleeves would be just the ticket. Shrink 'em just enough for a no motion fit.

WR Moore
Friday, October 19, 2007, at 23:06:49 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Stuff a couple ear plugs into the coils. It'll dampen the springs without keepin them from stretching and retracting properly.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 00:15:16 (ZULU)

>" Never noticed any sounds, is it the plastic stock reverberating? I'd expect that shrink fit electrical insulating sleeves would be just the ticket. Shrink 'em just enough for a no motion fit."<

I hear it with both wood and fiberglass stocks - I wonder if a piece of rubber tube would work... or some of that clear plastic tube from home depot - slit it, and slip it over the spring??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 00:16:12 (ZULU)

Lito,

That's what I had in mind: something fairly thick-walled, and soft durometer. If it wears out who cares: put on another.

Mac

SSG Mac
Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 00:44:53 (ZULU)

Click my name. One more time for the squirrel catapault.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 05:05:00 (ZULU)

re: Harris springs

Maybe pump em full of that thar silly cone stuff? I used silly cone "whiskers" on my bow quickie quiver to muffle the vibes and it worked pretty good. Cheaper than the Simms rubber products and just as durable.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 06:09:28 (ZULU)

Love my Marine comrades! From National Review's blog The Tank:

CAPTURE THE FLAG! [W. Thomas Smith Jr.]

I snatched a Hezbollah flag — the yellow banner with the green fist and rifle — from one of the enemy's strongholds in Lebanon recently. And when I say stronghold, I literally mean a strong, heavily defended battle position where the Lebanese Army and police dare not enter, and I had to enter covertly.

Kathryn knows about it. I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm nuts. I'm also pretty sure she might be right. But I did it for two reasons:

First, in my often flawed logic I figured that if the terrorists caught me taking the flag, they would — as expressed by a former Christian militiaman who was with me at the time — “cut my head” (meaning “cut my head off”). But the way I saw it, they would “cut my American head” if they caught me flag or no flag anyway.

Second, I hate those guys. Hezbollah, you'll remember, murdered 241 of my brothers when they blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 when I was just a wee-rifleman in the Corps. The enemy stronghold where I snatched the flag was not far from the site of the bombing.

Of course, because there were others involved with me in the flag capture who are still in Lebanon, I cannot — for the sake of their own security — detail the particulars of our little mission.

So what am I going to do with the flag? I haven't decided.

I actually captured two flags: a big one and a little one.

I might keep the little one — or give it to Kathryn — and give the big one to my Navy midshipman nephew, Michael. That way he and his buddies can hang it upside down (as a trophy of war) somewhere in their dorm.

Semper Fidelis.

Mr. Smith, Sir, you got big ol' brass ones. That stunt is almost... CAVALRY-like!

Edited to add: Of course, a Cavalryman would've gotten their booze too.

Mac

SSG Mac
Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 14:33:04 (ZULU)

If a guy had the proper paperwork and license, could he purchase a Mechem NTW 20mm Bolt gun? Where would one look? I was looking for an exporter and price. I was wondering if one could actually still legally buy this stuff and bring it in. I was asked to find a price and legal exporter for this system if it is possible.

If you can't help me with that info can you tell me if you ever heard of a USAAS 12, shotgun. It's suppose to look like an AR15 / M16 only it is a 12 gage. I cannot find any reference to it.

Any help would be appriciated.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 14:58:22 (ZULU)

USAS 12 (drum/magazine fed 12ga select-fire sgn)

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm

Type: gas operated semi-auto or selective fired

Gauge: 12 (2 3/4 in shells - 70 mm chamber )

Length: 960 mm

Barrel length: 460 mm

Weight 5.5 kg empty, 6.2kg loaded with 10 rounds

Capacity: 10 rounds box or 20 rounds drum detachable magazines

History of USAS-12 shotgun is rather interesting. Its design grew up from 1980's vintage designs of Maxwell Atchisson (see Atchisson assault shotgun). In about 1989, Gilbert Equipment Co (USA) decided to bring up the selective fired weapon, broadly based on principles, employed in Atchisson shotguns. The design of new weapon was produced by someone John Trevor Jr. Since Gilbert Equipment Co had no manufacturing capabilities, it started to look for possible manufacturers. It turned out that the only maker that agreed to produce this weapon was South Korean company Daewoo Precision Industries, a part of high-tech DAEWOO conglomerate. Daewoo engineers adopted the new weapon to their manufacturing techniques, and mass production commenced during early 1990s. This gun sold well to military and security forces of several (unspecified) countries in Asia, and more than 30 000 of USAS-12 shotguns were made by mid-1990s. During the same timeframe Gilbert equipment Co tried to bring semi-automatic version of USAS-12 to US market, but BATF promptly classified this weapon as "having no sporting purpose", so it became "Class III destructive device" under US 1934 Gun Control Act. This greatly restricted its civilian use. During late 1990s, RAMO Defence Co began to assemble USAS-12 shotguns from Korean and US-made parts for sale on domestic market, but then again, sales of this weapon were limited to government agencies only. Today, this gun is generally not available in USA, but it is probably still is being manufactured by Daewoo in Korea.

USAS-12 is a gas operated, selective fire weapon. It uses a gas system located above the barrel, with more or less conventional rotating bolt locking. The interesting feature, borrowed from Atchisson designs, is the long bolt overtravel, which results in relatively low peak recoil and low rate of fire, which is essential for weapon firing powerful 12 gauge shells. USAS-12 is an ambidextrous weapon, having two ejection ports on each side of the receiver, and two slots on the forearm for cocking handle. The ejector on the bolt and the cocking handle could be easily set to operate either side of the gun, depending on the present shooter needs and preferences. USAS-12 is feed from large capacity box or drum magazines, holding 10 and 20 rounds respectively (there are some sources that indicate that earlier versions of the USAS-12 were imported into USA with 12 and 28 rounds magazines). The polymer buttstock is hollow and is used as a space for bolt group to recoil, so the folding butt version is unavailable for this design. USAS-12 has a post type, hooded front sight at the top of the gas chamber and an adjustable rear sight built into the carrying handle, similar to one found on M16 assault rifles.

USAS-12 is very bulky and heavy, but the large mass greatly improves the recoil control, especially in full automatic (bursts) mode.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 15:26:06 (ZULU)

Class 3 US papered USAS 12 unit - $3200

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976207651/Guns/Pistols/Class-3/USAS_12_AR15_STYLE_SHOTGUN.htm

If Uncle Sam is your purchasing agent, suspect you could get one from

Daewoo in S. Korea for much less.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 15:30:24 (ZULU)

Thank you so much. I just never worried about such huge stuff. I came from the travel light--- freeze at night svhool of thought. ;)

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 15:55:21 (ZULU)

re: USAS 12

With the weight of the ammunition required, almost qualifies as crew-served. Really need an ammo-bearer for all that 12ga fodder for full-auto usage. Sure would put a lot of lead downrange in a hurry for close contact usage.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 17:06:14 (ZULU)

or from a vehicle, it would make a kick ass break-contact weapon.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 18:57:34 (ZULU)

Catman just wrap legs with cloth camo tape. It will take care of that problem and as it gets used it will fray and get minor ghillie effect.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 19:12:10 (ZULU)

hay all

we the israely sivil guard shooters r no longer a part off police in israel .

all units closed .

sam lawyers decided it's not job for police to heve snipers

i'ts good for attack not for defence ???

see what Howard Linett writes

http://www.newmediajournal.us/guest/h_linett/10022007.htm

avi

avi
haifa, israel, is - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 21:58:36 (ZULU)

Avi....it appears as if your lawyers are as limp-dicked and stupid as ours are. Is it genetic? Maybe there's a secret place they have to go to after they pass the bar exams to have a lobotomy and testicle-ectomy.

Does anybody know how peacocks taste? Someone here in my vicinity used to raise them, and moved away, leaving the wretched creatures. they appear fat and sassy, but I'm about to go nuts with all the screaming and mewling they do. Do they smoke up good? Or shoul I deep-fry them like a turkey?

Finger......missed your call again. Called right back and no answer. Whassup?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 22:19:17 (ZULU)

Peacock:

http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/askchef.html

Peacock is a dark, sweet, juicy meat not unlike duck but considerably less fatty. I recommend checking the degree of fat on the carcass, and barding (draping with fat bacon or rubbing/injecting with butter or oil) if the bird is a lean one. Simple roasting or braising will bring out its unique and delicate flavor; do not overcook peafowl. A good herbal pairing would be herbs du provence with lavender and thyme, or perhaps fresh rosemary. Roasted or braised root vegetables or squashes are another good accompaniment to this delicately flavored and savory meat.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 22:25:21 (ZULU)

Asked by a CBS 60 Minutes II reporter during a Precision Rifle course why he does what he does, Clint Smith replied, "We train snipers because there are people who need to be shot."

I'm unaware of any place in which that statement doesn't apply. Perhap in Heaven... I'm sure it's true in Hell, but the Devil probably has alternative methods of dealing with them.

Sorry, Avi, but perhaps in time they will realize the error of their ways.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, October 20, 2007, at 22:30:06 (ZULU)

WTF? Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 00:41:28 (ZULU)

Have you ever carried a bucket of STOOPID with you to a match??????

Well today I carried a 5 gallon bucket full to Butner. Four 600 yard matches today. I sucked.....pure and simple sucked. FOR SALE: all my rifles and shooting stuff. I'm gonna take the proceeds and buy knitting yarn, sit in my recliner and never again have to think about how to shoot through 6 range flags flying 6 different directions and a boiling mirage.......life will be good.

Bolt out!

Dumb shit
still drier than a popcorn fart in....., NC, - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 02:08:26 (ZULU)

Bolt,

You didn't go and do anything stupid(destructive) to your stick afterwards, did ya?

Go shoot a cowboy match today. They're fuyn, and you ain't gonna win anything, no matter where you place.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 12:54:39 (ZULU)

SSG Mac, Get Rush Limbaugh to auction those flags off for a few

million bucks.

He's raised a s**t load of money for fallen Marine & Federal LEO

kid's College fund.

Over $ 4 Million !!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 13:23:13 (ZULU)

Bolt,

You have to screw up sometime, or you quit trying. Besides, where's the fun if it's too easy?

Are you still in FayetteNam? I've done the little LR stuff I've ever done at Oak Ridge, never been to Butner even when I was in Division (low those many years ago). It looks like an outstanding facility & program.

Q: Butner states on thier website that there's no M118 allowed. My load is worked up for Lake City brass, and 175 SMKs; how're they gonna know they're handloads? Headstamp? Mine's mostly LC-90, but I've got some 77 MATCH I'm working through too. Don't want to show up as the New Guy, and create problems.

Gentlemen, what's the collective opinion on Lapua brass. I know it's well thought of, but is it worth the price difference? Using Lake City, I'm accustomed to a lot of brass prep, & sorting for weight. Is that not required for match grade consistency with Lapua? I just don't see paying many times the cost only to do all the same work. Thinking of going with Winchester brass instead: they seem to use good QA on their alloy, and costs much less. Lake City is just getting too hard to find now.

Mac

SSG Mac
Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 13:46:08 (ZULU)

Mac.......

Never lived in Fayettenam.....always been here in the Triad.

Butner.........

It has been said by many a shooter that if you can shoot successfully at Butner you can shoot successfully most anywhere else. The butner range is surrounded by high trees on 3 side and a monster berm with high trees behind the pits. Each 100 yard line is a berm all the way back to 1000. The wind comes over the trees, drops down and swirls. I've seen 8 wind flags blowing in 8 different directions......but that is the wind at 12 feet above the ground. The wind you don't see is up where your bullet is arcing especially for 223 and 308. The wind on the ground blows up the berms from the front and hits the rifle right at the muzzle. The wind blowing up your panties from the back blows up the back side of the berms. Theoretically speaking you have 10 berms, 3 sides of high trees and a monster berm screwing with the wind. However, there are constants that you can look for, espcially depending on which side of the range your target is on. Yesterday for whatever reason I was tunnel visioned on 2 flags on the left side of the range and the mirage. They weren't matching worth a damn. Then I quit looking at the flags and concentrated on the mirage, bummer also. I was shooting worse than normal and my bud asked my what the hell I was looking at. Then it dawned on me that the left side flags weren't catching the wind like normal. He is left handed and was watching the right side flags. Hard as hell to watch right side flags when you are right handed. You have to pull your head off the stock, look up, catch the flags as they are coming back up to your sighter shot configuration, drop your head back down and get the shot off weally weally fast. This causes problems in itself because you are constantly trying to get your head back in the same position. Once I got in that rythem I picked up 7-9 points for the next two matches. Too friggin late....... It pays to go back over your range dope before you shoot at Butner. You can catch constants but you have to watch the time left on the clock. The great shooters that have been shooting down there since the beginning of time don't even have to think about what's going on.

With no range longer than 200 yards around here I just can't get the long range practice in needed to keep up with these guys between 600 and 1000 yards. It seems like I'm always practicing rather than competing. Even then I'm still grateful to 1) have a 200 yard range 30 mintues from the house and 2) to have a great place like Butner to shoot long range only an hour and a half from the house.

I'm not sure why they don't like military 118. Most everyone shooting 308's in the TR class use 175's with any type of brass they have. I had my go at 190's but have determined that the 175's day in and day out are for some reason more consistant. I use Win brass cause it is realitively cheap and is damn good brass. I've never seen the cost ratio benefit to use Lapua or Norma high dollar brass except for the fact that you don't have as much prep time with them as you do with Win (depending on how much prep you do to your brass).

Travis.........

Fortunately I don't destroy riffles like I used to destroy golf clubs (before I gave it up). I'm going to start shooting some long range 22lr this winter and also some XTC matches for a diversion.

Bolt out!

Bolt
Recovering from yesterday......., NC, - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 14:29:31 (ZULU)

Bolt,

The same has been said about Hathcock Range at Stone Bay, CamLej. Have you ever made that trip when they were shooting LR matches on that range.

I do remember some wild wind days on the range at Kaneohe Bay Hawaii. The range was inside of an old instict valcano If I recall correctly. The wind always depended on where you were at on the line.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 14:59:29 (ZULU)

SSG Mac;

There has been a rash of quality problems concerning Lapua brass recently. It varies from tight to loose primer pockets to soft brass. Take a look at the forum on long-range.com, there is a topic about it there.

My issues are with a batch of .308 I bought about 6 months ago. Out of 100 pieces, about 40 or so would not take a CCI BR2 primer. The pocket was too tight. I could fit a Winchester WLR primer but really snug. After about two to three firings, all the cases had very loose primers pockets with about half of them leaking.

Bolt;

The wind flags at Pascagoula do that also. It gets frustrating trying to figure it out so I take the easy way out and hold center mass and hope for the best.

Don't piss in the Amazon:

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=797

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 15:06:11 (ZULU)

Rod, thanks for the info. You've probably sealed the doom of at least one of the little &*($'ers. Although, after watching some hunting videos of TK & Mike, I'm not sure duck is the best comparison.

Rifle cleaning....I've always found it tedious and boring. Found a new concoction that at least takes the "tedious" out of it. Laphroaig. It seems to work by affecting time/space recognition, so that two hours swabbing a bbl doesn't seem as long. Seems to work best with a 6x50 Favorita de Nicaraugua. I'll have to do some more research on it and get back with you in coming days.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 16:57:31 (ZULU)

Does anyone have Geoff Corn's address or phone number? My .300 is ailing and needs help from someone who knows what he's doing.

CDC'
Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 17:10:44 (ZULU)

CDC...

>" Does anyone have Geoff Corn's address or phone number? My .300 is ailing...."<

Give it two 190 SMKs and call him in the morning ;)

(De' debil made me say it ;)

E-Mail Bravo - I think he has Geoff's info.

How did your hunt end?

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 18:44:07 (ZULU)

Some more update on cleaning (I know... you're bored with it by now :((

Two riffles...

I unpacked a lovely riffle that I haven't shot in so many years, that they don't make the bullet I used for it's best load anymore :((

It is a Browning B-78, a beautiful copy of the Winchester High-wall. It is in 6mm Remington, and has a 15 power, 2+ foot long Unertl "Ultra Varmint" scope on it - complete with "return to battery" spring, and black micrometer mounts - it is beautiful, and a classic American style Woodchuck riffle...

... and I hadn't cleaned it when I packed it away (I was moving from NY to Connecticut - that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! ;)

I ran a wet patch (#9) through it, and it came out green right away. Let it sit for about 10 minutes. Hit it with another patch, and BIG green came out of it.

Two more wet patches, and no more green... just a little gray.

That was the fastest I have done a dirty barrel. I'm now dead convinced that brass brushes are the enemy (but maybe useful sometimes).

This is one that I did a really through cleaning on a few weeks ago - it is a .223, Winchester Custom Shop Sharp Shooter, v 1.0 (McMillan A2 stock, Gary Schneider barrel, Jewell trigger).

I had stripped this puppy down to it's shorts last month cuz there was an accuracy problem that had plagued me for several years. It turned out to be two things... first, the Jewell trigger was hitting the stock in such a way that the action could not sit into the glass bedding perfectly (the Jewell was fitted after the riffle was built). And the scope turned out to be the real culprit - first "bad" scope that I have ever had (bad enough to effect the grouping). I cleaned up the place where the trigger was hitting, and put a 6.5-20 Nikon Monarch scope on it

Anyway... when putting it back together, I scrubbed the hell out of the barrel... and hit it with all the cleaners from #9 to CR-12, and you could eat off the lands ;).

I put 150 rounds through it last Thursday (and it is a dream), and when I ran a wet patch through it (#9) just a little gray.

I let it soak, and ran another through it - gray.

And another and another... gray.

This is the first time I have ever seen a barrel not copper foul with 150 rounds through it.

Makes one appreciate fine barrels.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 20:30:05 (ZULU)

Butner range flags- Hey Bolt, those flags are nylon, not cotton like the wind charts are made for. They're only good for direction.

I did decent there at 1K exactly twice. The first time, the previous years senior champion was doing my scoring. Since it was my first time, he was gentle and started calling the wind for me after he realized IHFC. My score still sucked, but I started to look like I knew what I was doing in the second string. The second time, I used the flag on the right at the far end for stable condition and shot when it was hanging.

I laughed at the heat shields on the barrels. Not no more. After about 10-12 rounds, the heat shimmer starts getting serious.

My wife needs to sell the @#$#$%%^^&* horses, don't have time to shoot.

WR Moore
Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 21:07:02 (ZULU)

Charles:

Anything as noisy as a peacock doesn't deserve an undisturbed retirement :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 22:52:12 (ZULU)

Charles,

I will gladly drive down to your AO and help you zap the varmint or varmints. Late one night in the previous century I was weaving my way along a dimly lit sidewalk that led from the "O" Club to the BOQ in Rota, Spain. About halfway to the BOQ a damned peacock let out a scream and I thought someone was being killed. I finished my trip in record time! The next morning, after sobering up, I retraced my steps expecting to find blood everywhere. That was when I found the peacocks in a pen next to the walk. I've wanted to get even for years.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The windy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, October 21, 2007, at 23:44:09 (ZULU)

I'd really like to load some baby peacocks into a cannon, and fire it at a brick wall. I hate those noisy, messy bastards.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 03:36:25 (ZULU)

Travis,

I got a mental picture of that one. See if you can round up THAT video.

er-EEE-ah....er-EEE-ah....PLOOMPF!!! Kinda like that pigeon on the corner of the barn roof with the 30/30 when I was a kid.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 05:14:48 (ZULU)

Steve,

One of my faves was a bunny with a 30-30 using 180 gr. core loct at about 10 ft.. He was broadside, but just as I was about to pull the trigger, he pivoted to face me. Bunny fluff everywhere. I found 2 pieces(30 feet apart), and there wasn't enough there to feed a kitten.

Anyone else have a good "blowing stuff up" hunting story?

'Lito,

What was the site where the guy was hunting cats with a mortar?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 08:11:31 (ZULU)

Travis Dudeski...

You need to get some sleep - you can't stay up all night and wonder about things like mortar fire on cats ;)))

http://www.buckstix.com/CoehornMortarHunt.htm

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 10:38:26 (ZULU)

"hunting feral cats with a cohorn mortar" LOL!.. ROTFLMAO!!!!

....here Kitty Kitty! Looks much more fun than hunting deer with a Bushmaster, at least more challenging. Heh heh, the wife'll be wondering what I'm grinning about today ;))

SSG Mac
Monday, October 22, 2007, at 11:32:58 (ZULU)

My wife and cousin conspired to make I and some other family members go on a forced march this weekend- (they called it a corn maze) and the whole time, I was thinking how cool it'd be if they kicked all the people out, and let me hunt deer and coons with my .45 Colt. That woulda been the SHIT! Even thought it'd be interesting to "jump hunt" deer with a bow in there.

Was wondering if any of you have gotten to do something similar in the corn fields?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 12:26:40 (ZULU)

Been gone for a while, man it takes a lot of reading to catch up when you haven't done so in a month or more.

I about fell out reading about your Peacock fantasy travis.

I've got a blow up story. I have a TC Contender in .223. Many years ago I was at my uncles place, he has several hundred acres. He told me to clean out the cat population as there were way too many running around the place. Not a problem I told him. I was shooting some kind of reloads with 55 grain soft points. The first kitty I came upon was about 35 yards away, sitting there looking straight at me. Nobody had been shooting them, so they were'nt too scared yet. Anyhow, I hit him in the center of the chest, and he just collapsed right there. I went to check out my handiwork, and that bullet had totally vaporized everything from his chest to his butt. There wasn't anything left inside him. You could lay him out like a bearskin rug, which I did, close to the road, so everyone could see how good I did. I guess the word got out in the cat neighborhood, cause they were a lot harder to find out in the open after that.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 13:32:29 (ZULU)

Tony,

When I got my first .223, a mini-14, I was just dying to try out my V-max loads. I spotted a bunny about ten yards from one of the dogs, about 150 yards out, so I let fly. Bunny just sat there. -Til I pointed to him, and the dog went for him. He was running like his ass was scalded, and I walked out to where he'd been sitting, wondering how in HELL I couldn't shoot minute of bunny at that range with irons. When I got there, all his guts were sitting there in a pile, but he still managed to outrun our best dog!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 13:44:07 (ZULU)

Micheal Yon: always worth reading, rarely comfortable.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/resistance-is-futile.htm

-or click

Mac

SSG Mac
Monday, October 22, 2007, at 14:17:21 (ZULU)

"...If a guy had the proper paperwork and license, could he purchase a Mechem NTW 20mm Bolt gun? Where would one look? I was looking for an exporter and price. I was wondering if one could actually still legally buy this stuff and bring it in. I was asked to find a price and legal exporter for this system if it is possible..."

Jim

I believe that the 1968 GCA banned anything breach loading over .50 caliber unless a dewart or otherwise disabled (non-functioning).

Jerry

Jerry
Annapolis, MD, USA - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 16:47:50 (ZULU)

Thanks Jerry. I figured it was not legal to import, but I have not really kept up on changes and such.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 17:25:44 (ZULU)

Subject: Winchester needs help!!!
Hope this finds everyone well. I haven't posted in a while, or been here for that matter, but the job just let up for the winter.

It seems I've run into new territory that I need some help with. I recently purchased a Winchester Model 70 in 25 WSSM. Here's my problem. Everything I've owned in the past, both model 70 LA's and Model 700's have had 2 screws that held the action to the stock. I've never owned a Model 70 that had three screws and am wondering if this is peculiar to the WSSM family of rifles or if all short actions have thre screws like this one.

I bought the gun for my daughter to hunt with and found the accuracy lacking. 3MOA with the best hand loads that I can come up with. I've tried 2 powders, 3 bullets and infinite different charges and bullet combinations. I've also tried 3 different factory ammo's. I'm going to send the thing back to Winchester cause they said it should shoot at least 2MOA. I know I'm capable of 1/4 to 1/2 with my 300 RUM with hand loads. After it gets back I'm going to change out the crappy stock to a McMillan or H&S. Also, I'm probably going to have it rebarreled before next season. I just figured I'd let Winchester true everything up and anything else that they might do for free before I start paying for custom stuff. You guys ought to see the sloppyness of this gun build. No wonder they closed New Haven. QC had gone out the door.

My question is what's up with the 2-3 screws. Is 3 the normal for model 70 SA's or just to this new family of guns. Can I order any Model 70 SA stock and it have the right amount of screw holes in the right places.

Give me any info/experience you guys can on the gun. I know I had to send a Model 70 Laredo in 300 win mag back to the factory for them to get it right. But it had the barrel and stock I wanted on it from the factory. It just needed a few adjustments to make it accurate.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get it all out.

Jeff "not the Col." Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 18:33:18 (ZULU)

Note in from the owner at Anzio:

"...Buying over 50 cal requires a 200$ tax stamp and is just like buying a suppressor. If you are a non-DD dealer the ATF will still let you transfer one or two a year since there is so few DD dealers. The person buying it would either need a chief of police or county judge to sign off or have a corporation buy it. Just let me know if you have any other questions..."

Not sure if classIII and DD (destructive devices) are the same....

Anyhow - Jim - looks like you can call up, place your order and get the transfer started (provided the local folks sign off)...

Take care all --

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 18:37:52 (ZULU)

Getting reports in that Malibu California has one big fire running. The update stated that 150 strike teams have been requested (that's 5 engines per team, roughly a crew of 4 each...750 engines and 3000 firefighters!). The evacuation so far is over a quarter million people.

I am sooooo glad we don't have brush fires on that scale where I serve....

medicjim
Monday, October 22, 2007, at 19:59:07 (ZULU)

MedicJim...

>"Getting reports in that Malibu California has one big fire running. The update stated that 150 strike teams have been requested (that's 5 engines per team, roughly a crew of 4 each...750 engines and 3000 firefighters!). The evacuation so far is over a quarter million people."<

Maybe some day, the Eco Nazi yuppies will learn from the past, and let the state clear the dead underbrush out of those canyons.

It happens every year, over and over... and nothing changes, but firefighters die for the "scenery" and property values!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, October 22, 2007, at 22:23:14 (ZULU)

Dumbass DuJour == Discovery of the Day

Foaming Copper Remover: Not for use in AR-15. The Schtuff blows back thru the gas tube. Ugly.

Ok, ok,.... so I win the "DUH!" award.....

Duman
Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 02:37:38 (ZULU)

Duman Carburator or Brake cleaner cleans out gas tubes of oil and water based solvents without leaving much residue in places that you can't get to. I think the high dollar brake cleaner is best because believe it or not, it has the least ammount of water. Go figure, stuff going in the carb having less water.

Everyone give me some feed back on previous post. Let me be lazy and not have to google all this stuff.

Thanks

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 13:30:30 (ZULU)

Jeff,

I bought a Win 70 Coyote in 7WSM. It has the three screw base and I found out the hard way that the action is slightly different than a standard 'short action'. The mag well dimensions are exactly the same as standard action, but the drilled and tapped holes on top do not match.... I had to buy a tapered base made special for the WSM.

The Coyotes come in a very nice laminated wood stock.... I had mine rebarrelled and didn't want to hog out the barrel channel, else I could have kept it on.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 14:02:27 (ZULU)

Jim thanks for the input. I bought the gun because I loked the ballistics for a light recoiling gun for my daughter. I figure it will be sufficient enough for a 300yd deer rifle, which is more than her accuracy limit.

When I took the rifle apart I was supprised at the shoddy workmanship. I also read on winchester's website that their light barreled rifles were supposed to have some light contact in the barrel channel. I read this after I floated the barrel by removing a contact point. It didn't seem to make a difference in accuracy but I put another contact point in with a piece of wooden doweling that happened to fit into a circular hole inside the stock, under the barrel. I will play with its length"pressure on barrel" to see if I can make it make a difference. I guess I'll have to talk to H&S and McMillian to figure out the correct stock instead of going through MidwayUSA. I seem to remember one of them offering fitting of stocks to my action for a not so nominal fee.

I'll get all this done after this deer season because she refuses to shoot my 300RUM for some reason. The 25 WSSM shoot into 8 inches at 200yds as it is. Rediculus. But that is about her limit anyway. Afterwards I'll change the stock and barrel.I may even let her hunt with my AR and just limit her to 150 yards. It's funny that Rock River guarentees and will shoot 1moa in an assult rifle and Winchester doesn't guarentee, but says it should shoot 2moa. What has the gun manufacturing world gone to? I guess Winchester is having to spend so much money on lobyists and lawyers that they are skimping on QC. I hate it's that way. I better stop now I'm starting to rant. I just want a gun that's more accurate than my abilities and that my daughter will shoot.

Guys, Give me some opinions on Douglas, Hart, Krieger, and Shilen. I prefer Lilja. Also give me some new gunsmith references cause mine has retired & refuses to buy a 25 WSSM chamber reamer, and etc. Feel free to E-mail me.

Oh well, my wife woke up and it's time to spend time with her before she goes to work.

Keep your heads down, covered and safe.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 16:10:15 (ZULU)

Catman, I do not agree with you on this issue. The problem is not that simple. The state is just freakin huge. There is a reason the old " A country boy will survive" Song includes California. The states wild country could swallow the state you live in many many times. There is no way to clear all brush that grows in state. Just too much of it. Now I would like to see areas closer to populated areas to clear more than they do but to clear the whole or even 20 percent would probably do worse to Fed Budget than Iraq war.

For example. I am in middle of Bay Are. I can drive less than one hour and be in country. I mean I can leave paved road way and drive straight north from there on dirt roads that will go north for hundreds of miles and see no towns. Once in awhle you will cross a paved road but it is certainly wild country. Pretty hard to clear all this.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 16:26:02 (ZULU)

Jeff: seriously, just float the barrel and bed the action; and maybe work the trigger using Lito's instruction in the SC article's "how to" section. Don't go thru the full custom route for a rifle that may not ever need sub-MOA dollars dumped in it. I was tempted to do the same thing with a model seven--and am thankful that I did not wste the money. It now shoots for all it needs to, with the minimal amount spent. You will be surprised at the improvements you get by locking in the action...

Mike: You do not need to clear a million acres---just the perimeter swaths around dwellings or towns. That is where you find ready and willing homeowners and local authorities who cannot act due to the eco-weenies and their lawyers, aided and abetted by stupid enviro regs.

Classic example: Atlanta's water supply draining down the Chatahochee so some mussels can prosper at the expense of the largest population south of the mason-dixon line. Well, duh---let's save all the little animals--darwin be damned--and screw the people. I say let them plug up their flood gates and use the water to boil some shellfish. Call it the first and last Hotlanta Clam Bake:))

If god did not want man to have dominion of the earth, then why did he give us all these great rifles?

Joe M
Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 16:52:37 (ZULU)

Joe, then I am lost. You see here in Bay Area thats not only OK but what is required by loacl law and they enforce it. Laws were always in effect here but after Oakland Hills Fire it has been left enforce the crap out of it status. Was same when I lived up in foot hills.

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 17:02:05 (ZULU)

Atlanta;

While the mussle situation has received some spotlight, the point many of the news media are not covering is the many municipalities who get there water from the rivers that Lake Lanier feeds. If these levels drop, they will also be out of water. The drought is just as bad in Alabama and Florida which is where this river goes.

Atlanta, like New Orleans, is a classic example of folks depending on the federal government (Corps of Engineers) to do something they themselves should have taken responsibility for. Atlanta gets it's water from Lake Lanier which is owned by the Corps of Engineers. Had Atlanta been thinking straight instead of cheap, they would have their own reservoirs instead of relying the Feds just like New Orleans relies on the CoE to take care of the levees to protect THERE city. Mobile Water owns it's two reservoirs and therefor has complete control of them.

It just goes to show that there are some things more important than oil. If you are in Atlanta in a couple months, a gallon of water could be worth more than a gallon of gas.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 17:24:33 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"If god did not want man to have dominion of the earth, then why did he give us all these great rifles?"<

You gave me my first laugh of the day ;)))))

Mike - if you go where there is nobody, you don't have to clear the dead brush - it won't burn down anyone's home... just clear the dead stuff from the residential areas.

I have a good friend out there. His house is on a three acre lot where nothing grows, but the rest of the area has the "Don't clear the brush" laws. A neighbor cut back the brush around the house. Two months later, a fire came through, and his house was the only one standing - and after the fire, he was fined $8,000 for cutting back the brush.

It IS the problem of the people that live there. They build wood frame houses in high fire areas, they don't clear the area, cuz they want it to look "Au natural"... the houses burn down, and they replace them with wood frame houses...

Somfin about "Those that don't learn from the past...."

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 17:32:50 (ZULU)

I've never been to CA and I'm no expert on the subject. I have heard that some of the issues dealt with in containing these fires when they get close to developed areas are a bit more complex than just cutting brush. Winds gusting to 75 MPH can jump large distances, generate enormous radiant heat concerns, etc, etc.

When I was in the National Fire Academy, one of my classmates (a Captain from LA county) was telling me that in some area near him, maintaining an underground cistern full of water was mandatory for every home. The fire crews would simply ignore your home if they found the cistern out of service.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 19:24:21 (ZULU)

I was the 1996 possum killing champion of the Port Arthur Police Department.

Bet you guys didn't know you was in the presence of greatness ;)

Possums ... is tough.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 23:06:22 (ZULU)

Cop story ... thought I'd share.

Old woman raising her daughter's four crack babies ...

Lived in a half burned out house here in the hood.

Plastic sheet for one wall, holes in the floor ... ghetto.

Possums kept getting in through the holes and eating the un-cleaned food (for weeks) off the stove/sink/table/dishes ...

Possums would run across the kids in the bed when Granny would turn the lights off.

Scared the shiite out of 'em.

Every time they would call 911 ... they'd turn on the lights and the possums would bail out down the hole in the floor.

So I told them next time to leave the lights off.

Got the call ... showed up ... and the biggest possum I'd ever seen (I've seen a lot of possums) was eating rotten, boiled chicken out of a pot on the stove.

ASP batons were new then and I lit him up.

He hissed at me when I cut him a flip off the stove ... rotten chicken water, pan, possum blood ... flying everywhere ...

Little boy hollering ... HIT HIM AGAIN OFFICER!!! HIT HIM AGAIN!!!!!!

Indeed.

Ah where have twenty years gone?

brian k. sain
Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 23:15:19 (ZULU)

Brian,

Thanks. I needed that. Now if I can just get the beer off the monitor and the keyboard! ;o)

Hawgs,

Is there anywhere I can donate a used cell phone that will help our troops?

Thanks & Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 23:46:10 (ZULU)

Joe Thanks for the input. I probably won't dump much into the rifle but I figured it wouldn't hurt to send it back to winchester and let them dump some into it. Last time I sent them one the custom shop worked it over for free. It came back shooting 3/4 with factory ammo and 1/2 with hand loads. It was my Winchester Laredo in 300 win mag. Funny thing, the factory denied doing anything to it, but you could tell it had a full accuracy job. Everything about it had been worked on or messed with. I kept the 5 shot .68in test target they sent back with it when I sold it. 1/2 moa comes in handy for head shots on does out to 600 yds. Not saying that she will ever be able to even try this but I might want to use it some time and a head shot is about your best bet if you want to anchor something at 500yds with a 100grn bullet. I'm hoping they will let the custom shop give it the same treatment as the WinMag got. You should see the 25WSSM. The bolt, when locked down without a round in the chamber, wiggles around. They put a dab of epoxy around the rear screw and some around the front and that is it. The whole design of the stock is cheap. When you tighten the middle screw the plastic trigger guard bends and binds aginst the metal of the magazine before it gets tight. There is about .075in of free bore past recomended max OAL if you are loading 110 grain NOSBaltips.They won't fit in the Mag if loaded out to .015 before the lands. If it wasn't for them going out of business and not producing any more in a higher grade rifle I wouldn't have bought this one. Also I want to change the stock so that I can have a detachable mag or at least a hinged floorplate.

I had the barrel free floated and it shot worse than with pressure on the barrel. Probably due to the small diamater of the sporter barrel allowing more harmonic vibration. Hence, wanting to rebarrel to a slightly larger barrel and floating. But I deffinately will bed the action after it comes back from the factory, if they don't do it. Already got the trigger at 2 lbs. Don't want to go lower due to daughter shooting it. She has a tendancy to put her finger on the trigger after pointing but before final aiming. My new 300 RUM has an 18oz trigger. It shoots 1/2 to 3/4 like my old Win Mag but it hasn't had anything done to it other than hand loads. With the price of the quality ammo for it being around $55 a box you can't afford to shoot without hand loading.

Anyone else had experiences like mine with the factories let me know. I'm curious to hear them.

Can't wait for bow season to end. The furry woodland creatures are everywhere except within 40 yds of my stand. Thank God my new muzzle loader is accurate to about 275. Thats 100 better than last years and will be a big supprise to the creatures that think 225 is a safe distance durring MZL season.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, Tn, - Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 00:46:22 (ZULU)

InSain,

Damn, that's a good one! Right up there with the Vietnamese-Pepper-Spray-Chicken recipe.......

See you at SHOT '08?

Duman
Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 01:23:50 (ZULU)

Pave the wilds of kalifornastan!!! If LA didn't suck so much, the wind wouldn't blow so hard, now that I think of it...but regardless, it dunn madder how hots it get, the cement won't catch!

OK, so I go out to the south end to slice up some oak--armed with a chainsaw and the ride-along carbine. I get all set up on the tailgate, and realize that I am being watched--you know the feeling--and turn around. Not 15 yards away is this buck, just staring at me like I blocked his favorite trail. The big ol' bastadge had 12 points--looking pretty symmetrical. After a long while, i set the saw down on the tailgate and off he goes. Now I want to hunt. But the empty truck accuses me of shucking work--so i get to it. On the 4th cut, the handle lets go at the front of the saw! Two screws are awol (I didn't even know they were ever there---it looks like it needs to be a one-piece set up)--and the saw rolls under my hands right at--well, let's say I was motivated at this point to get away! OK, so now I have to figure out what fits in these two holes before this job gets done...but what a great break for hunting!

So I jet back to the house to get my bow, and trot out to my corner--opposite end of the farm from the logging ops, to wait on sunset. Only now the wind is howling at 40+ mph---it just came up out of nowhere (or Minnesota--same thing either way). OK, this is a bust all around at this point. With this much wind, and the rut still off yet--the deer will bed down and lie low. So I pack up the kit in the case and start walking back east towards the house...and wouldn't you know it: another big buck is standing right in my path! It looks for all the world like the same bastadge from earlier by the far fenceline. And me, with a bow all zipped up and stowed. This time he bolted quick, heading back towards the first encounter zone.

So maybe I will sit astride that ridge tomorrow (the route between the two sightings). And if he shows up while cutting wood again, I'll chainsaw his ass instead of staring him down. And, the bow case stays home from now on---god knows i have enough pockets to live without it.

I cannot believe this. No damned deer for weeks...and then a decent trophy twice in a day--- while unprepared.

Jeff: All other things being equal--the barrel will vibrate consistantly shot to shot (if free floated). If the action isn't anchored down (bedded tightly to the stock)--then the barrel will move with everything else--randomly spraying the shot group all over the place. I dunno, thin barrels ain't so bad---especially if she has to carry it around all day. Might check the crown, and throw an 11degree hand reamer on it if needed. I bet you can get plenty out of it without a new pipe! But why would you set a hunting arm at 2 lbs on the trigger??? That is a tad light! That is not to say this is bad---but I need more weight. This is a matter of opinion--not a criticism. I don't have a trigger under 3 lbs (or do I?). The feel I like is a firm break point---"here it is"--without the "oh shit, where'd that one go?" of a surprise...heheh. I got used to crappy and firm/ good triggers in the military--so i tend to like em like I trained 'em.

Bobby's comment on my stick was it would be great with a bit of trigger work. I did not tell him that I already did:)) I set it for the same feel as i have on my match service rifle...which is heavy by most standards. I also love two-stage triggers--which means at least half will disregard anything I say on the subject.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 01:47:02 (ZULU)

Doc,

Re your old phone: look around for your local battered woman's shelter. A lot of them take old phones, and several companies donate time for them. That way Little Miss has a way to call for help if the bastad that abuses her shows up. A lot of us gave ours to them the last time we went over. I don't know of a way to benefit the troops with it.

Mac

SSG Mac
Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 02:24:03 (ZULU)

Joe The barrel definately needs a recrown. It has that recessed step down crap. As far as the triggers go, I didn't realize they were as low as they are till I happened to take my TC Encore Pro Hunter Pistol in .308 to the gunsmith to do a trigger job cause I had never fooled with a trigger like it. He did what he called a 40oz trigger job. I got it back and thought he was crazy till he showed me using two different trigger scales that it was actually 36oz. I brought the other two rifles up to the shop just to weigh them and was amazed at how light they were. He asked what I did and I told him. I smothed the surfaces and lowered them as low as they would go and still reliably hold back the firing pin when the bolt was moved into battery. The Remington came out at 18oz and the Winchester at 34. I like them, but I don't put my finger on the trigger till I want the rifle to fire. Most of the time I don't lock the bold down till I'm ready to shoot. We walk straight to our tree stands "about 1/2 mile and then sit there till leaving. Some of our stands overlook fields that are over a 1/2 mile long. My longest kill was 825 yds on a really nice 8 point. I use a range finder religiously and my 300RUM is topped with a LEUP 6.5x20x50 LR/T w/mildot. The TC pistol I actually use both index fingers when shooting. It cracks my left middle finger knuckle almost every time, but if I don't, I pull my shots to the right. As much as 6-10 inches at 300yds. AR has a 2 stage trigger and for some reason I like it, but only on that rifle. What I don't like is it won't do the rubber band thing very reliably. I guess it's too much travel for the rubber band/recoil to overcome.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 03:55:04 (ZULU)

Joe....Where was your pistol? A .45 between the running lights would have stopped said buck from all the rudeness.

Brian....the 20 years have all gone into the memory banks, to be shared and re-laughed at by us when we manage to get together. Someday, I'll have to tell you about the baby rattlesnake arrest and thumbcuffs. Or why raccoon hats were banned at the North substation for years.

Trajan, WTF? Tagged? Dude, that got sanitized ASAP. Whassup wid dat?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 05:22:11 (ZULU)

Jeff: I forget, sometimes, that the world is not using military SOPs. I have unlocked my bolt a few times for an extra margin of safety--but it felt like a foreign action. I spent a quarter-century trying to perfect a smooth transition from safe to aimed fire---as rapid and economical a motion as possible. Ingrained habits---so i end up configuring my equipment to fit my ways, while avoiding learning new ways to do business. Old dogs and all that;))

1/2 mile shots--that is cool! I have to shoot down the side of my garage (about 10 yards above it LOS) to get an easy half mile; this land has too much relief for regular LR shooting. Another place I could get a full thou is if I put one down the west side of the house (again, higher than heck)---but the wife saw me surveying that and put the kabash on it. Heheh. My fields will give you 500 in one place, a 300 in another (if the deer cooperated), and several 200-275 yard shots. I've only had one opportunity at 275+, and it was a great shot to take in the gusty full value winds---only a head shot/ CNS presentation due to a slight rise---a miss would be just that since I knew the elevation exactly. I drifted that 130gr .270 right under her chin. Blake was suitably impressed. I used that as a Q&A test--as in "why I would try something with such low probability?" He thought for a second and nailed it. "If your wind call was bad, you wouldn't even wound her."

While making it difficult for building a fixed firing line--the hills do something good: It provides an opportunity to invite many friends to hunt here. Lots of spots to place folks without worry.

Ken M: The invite is always good; just show up anytime. Hit me offline and I'll give you the gun-deer dates.

Joe M
Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 05:32:53 (ZULU)

Charles, I grabbed the M4; and it was right where I left it: on the passenger seat:))

I wear open carry hip holsters, which I find in my way while running the saw. Droplegs annoy me, and a shoulder rig becomes illegal the minute I put on a jacket in this sorry state. I also think of the saw as a weapon--so long as the freakin handle doesn't fall off!

Picture the fore grip having a set of screws right where the 90 degree turn is on top (where the lower extension wraps the far side of the saw and mounts, thru shocks--to the body). Now, the rear extension drops down the back end/ opposite side---forming a pivot point for the saw straight down and back towards ya if these parts separate. It is a serious design flaw IMHO--this bastard swung down and right between the knees. Yeah--I had a wimp-grip on the throttle since it is not damped like the main handle---even still, try holding 30 pounds of rotational forces on a 20" bar by a pistol grip by surprise. And yes, the throttle was winding down from full RPM as this happened....but it still was spinning fast as i jumped back and shoved my arm forward...I bet that blade was within an inch of making bad happen.

Like I told the wife: "You almost had a great lawsuit and life insurance payout..."

Her question on seeing the two piece handle was "why in the hell did they make that two pieces???" I dunno--my other saw is madrel bent all the way around---one piece of steel pipe from attachment to attachment. FWIW, the culprit is a troybuilt 4820, the good one is an old husky 16"

On the other hand, I did not have to load the bed of my truck with wood hand carried up a hill today:))

Joe M
Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 05:53:11 (ZULU)

I was just looking on the ODCMP website and noticed that they are selling M1D rifles in GOOD condition for $1900! The rifles do not come with scope, mount, scope cover or the stock pad. They will all be rebuilds no doubt.

I have a M1D with an EXCELLENT bore, M84 scope, stock pack and scope cover, but missing the original scope mount (I have a repro one). I wonder what the better bore and more complete accessories would draw in terms of value?

medicjim
Wednesday, October 24, 2007, at 17:54:42 (ZULU)

You heard it here first -

Looks like we will get a better M70 than was ever made - this one is made down south, without the union controlling everything.

I actually saw one two weeks ago - serial #00000X

---

The Model Winchester M-70 Is Back! Here's the press release.

Morgan, Utah - The Winchester Model 70 is one of the most respected bolt-action rifle designs in the world. Winchester Repeating Arms is excited to announce the return of the Model 70 for 2008. The All-American Model 70s will be built by American craftsmen in Columbia, South Carolina, at the same state-of-the-art factory (FN Manufacturing) as the rifles and machine guns used by American's Armed Forces. They are made to the exact ISO 9001 standard of quality that the U.S. Government insists upon for military firearms.

For 2008 the new Model 70 has the all new M.O.A.™ Trigger System, improved fit and finish and enhanced accuracy to go along with its classic Pre-64 Controlled Round Feeding, Three-Position safety and solid, sure handling.

M.O.A.™ Trigger System. The new Model 70 M.O.A.Trigger System is the most precise three-lever trigger system ever offered to sportsmen. Operating on a simple pivoting lever principle, the trigger mechanism has been completely redesigned to exhibit zero take up, zero creep and zero overtravel. The pull weight ranges from 3 to 5 pounds and is factory-set at 3 3/4 pounds. Because of the enhanced ergonomics, wide smooth triggerpiece and 2:1 mechanical advantage created by the unique design geometry, it actually feels like half that weight.

Three-Position Safety. The improved three-position safety on the new Model 70 has proven effective and highly popular with hunters and shooters for decades. Convenient to operate with the thumb of the firing hand, the Model 70 safety lifts the firing pin away from the sear. Then the safety selector is in the middle position, the action can still be operated, allowing unfired cartridges to be cycled with the safety on.

Hammer-Forged Barrel. Model 70 barrels are cold hammer-forged from a solid billet of steel for accuracy and long life. Massive rotary hammers shape the barrel steel around a mandrel to create the rifling. The barrel is threaded, target crowned and installed on the receiver. The chamber is then reamed and the bolt is headspaced. This results in 1 MOA accuracy for three-shot groups using properly managed barrel, quality match ammo and superior optics under ideal weather and range conditions.

Blade-Type Ejector. The Model 70's blade-type ejector allows full control when ejecting a fired case. When pulling the bolt back slowly the empty case pops out gently, which is perfect for target shooters and varminters. Pulling the bolt back smartly allows the empty case to clear the port with greater force. The blade-type ejector helps to eliminate short-stroking malfunctions.

The new Winchester Model 70 will be offered in a Super Grade, Featherweight™ Deluxe, Sporter Deluxe and Extreme Weather SS models for 2008. All will feature a thick black Pachmayr® Decelerator® pad that will help take the bite out of recoil.

The Super Grade will be offered in 30-06 Sprg. and 300 Win. Mag and will feature a fancy grade walnut stock with contrasting black fore-end tip and pistol grip cap and a sculpted shadowline cheekpiece. Suggested Retail $1,149.00

The Featherweight Deluxe has an angled comb walnut stock with Schnabel fore-end and satin finish with elegant cut checkering. It will be offered in popular long and short action calibers, including WSM chamberings. Suggested Retail $999.00 to $1,049.00.

The Sporter Deluxe features a satin finished walnut stock with cut checkering on trim fore-end and pistol grip, along with a sculpted cheekpiece. Available in popular long action and short action WSM calibers. Suggested Retail $999.00 to $1,049,99.

The Extreme Weather SS's premium Bell and Carlson composite stock features a trim, light feel with textured matte surface that gives a sure grip in any conditions. The Extreme Weather SS has a free floating, fluted stainless barrel to help minimize weight. Available in popular long action and short action WSM calibers. Suggested Retail $1,149.00 tp $1,199.00. Delivery on all models will begin in June of 2008.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 00:50:27 (ZULU)

SSG Mack,

Where are all these battered women? I've been eating mine RAW!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 04:23:35 (ZULU)

CLICK MY NAME This guy is either a moron, or has a big, clangin' pair! I'm bettin' he has a tree stand now.

Also, am told by FOX news that Giuliani wants blind people armed.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 08:17:04 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Hard, HARD things going on here right now. My wife is having a nervous breakdown, and has flirted with suicidal thoughts. I'm in a new job, but can't leave her... so I miss another day while I try to get her the help she needs.

For those here who believe, I would be very grateful for your prayers. Thanks.

Bill

SSG Mac
Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 12:13:19 (ZULU)

Travis...

>"... I've been eating mine RAW!"<

And I bet they love you for it, and stand in line for more ;)))))

SSG Mac...

You have them!!

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 13:56:39 (ZULU)

SSG Mac: Prayers said; hang in there. And don't be a hero this time---if YOU need help, anything at all, ask. There is a landslide of support out there waiting to land on your head---from right here at SC to places like the VFW, the 82d Association, and state and local resources. You may not have the time to dig around all by yourself---but with the networks of good people at your fingertips, doors can be opened that you may not know about. Only you truly know what you need...so if you find yourself surrounded---call in the reinforcements.

Kittywhacker: Best news I've heard this year!

Turkey is reported to have begun cross border ops in northern Iraq. Those who think a three-state solution is the way to go take note: A Kurdistan resurrection WILL lead to a wider war pronto. Inintended consequences by idiot elected legislators who think they have a gift for statesmanship; the only solution is whatever the people of Iraq ultmately say the solution will be. Anything else, especially hair-brained ideas out of Washington's liberal think tanks, can only worsen things.

Joe M
Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 14:45:11 (ZULU)

SSG Mac,

Prayers incoming. Remember, just because she needs you to be strong for her, don't mean you can't be weak for you. First rule of rescue: Rescue yourself FIRST. I recently found this kinda stuff out the hard way. If you just need to chat, you can call. (316)259-9025.

'Lito,

I'm married. Don't do that anymore.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 14:56:51 (ZULU)

SSG Mac,

Prayers on the way. If you want to talk drop me a note and I'll send you my number.

Joe M.,

Sounds as if a trip to your local Stihl dealer might be in order.

'lito,

Outstanding news. Guess I had better start saving my pennies.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 15:07:33 (ZULU)

Travis:

Better practice would be to privately email any phone numbers,

to avoid them being harvested by scum too.

Suggest editing your posting...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 15:57:08 (ZULU)

Joe M, Charles S. Hunt, and all who have had to deal with dipshit women who think they know EVERYTHING about horses, click. Thank me later.

'Lito,

Is this despicable bitch the kind you'd want to beat to death with a hammer, or what? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODWDKLfdhcU

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 16:17:15 (ZULU)

Lito

I read that this morning myself. Was thinking of getting a Browning in 243, but i guest i'll wait. Where did you get a look at one? Any web sites where a person could have a look?

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 16:51:36 (ZULU)

Gary...

I saw one about a month ago, and had to promise that I would say nothing, cuz the deal was on stall because of old union deals that were still in the way. The old contract said Winchester (USRA) couldn't open plants in non-union (right to work) states. ????

The Fuckin' union thinks they still have jurisdiction over a company (USRA) that doesn't exist anymore, and that they put out of business.

I think the new Winchesters will be better rifles than any we have seen from them in many MANY years.

I knew many people at Winchester, and I was at the old New Haven plant five or six times a year.

Here in Connecticut, they were crippled by a union that wouldn't let them hire skilled gun makers or stock makers - when they had openings, the union "sent them" the new people... and they usually came from the dying aircraft industries here... all these guys knew was that they making parts - they had no pride - most of them didn't own a gun, and some hated guns, but took the job cuz they were laid off from Hamilton Aircraft or Sikorsky.

I once was in the custom shop about a problem with one of their (my) custom riffles... I saw racks and racks of the most beautiful AAA+ exhibition grade walnut you could ever imagine. The stuff would bring tears to your eyes.

I asked about it, and they said they didn't make custom grade stocks anymore because they couldn't hire experienced stock makers for the custom shop... the union wouldn't allow it. They had to "teach" some hack that ran a automated stock replicating machine down on the production floor, because his title was a "stock maker" and so was entitled to the job promotion (according to the union), because he had seniority, even though he had never held a chisel in his life.

So Winchester stopped making custom stocks years ago. When a customer wanted a custom stock with beautiful wood, they picked a blank, and the gun was sent out to one of the smaller custom stock makers that are around the country... and of course, the wait was years.

In the new place down south, they are getting all REAL gun makers (and gun lovers), and no union headaches.

I'm sure these new Winchesters will be fine guns.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 17:42:49 (ZULU)

Creative idea

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304806,00.html

medicjim
Thursday, October 25, 2007, at 19:54:33 (ZULU)

Lito Thanks a lot. That's just what I want to hear after buying the shoddily made gun I picked up a few months ago "because they were not going to make any more". I know you have read all my posts about all the problems with it. All I can say is custom shop better fix it. I'm glad to hear the news, but it really pi**es me off. I would have waited for a higher quality gun but, "what were on the shelves were going to be the last of them". Does their plant closing press realease equal false advertisement. It did cause me to literately, rush out and buy a gun I would otherwise not have bought.

If the guys that used to make airplanes were making the gun parts that does explain the workmanship on the guns. Notice the most popular, new, small aircraft are now made out of the country and shipped in. There's only 2 big, small aircraft manufacturers left in the United States. The rest are pretty much made one at a time, hand crafted in very small factories.

Mac As a full time crop duster and a ex LE K9/Tac guy I have become pretty good friends with the man up stairs. Sometimes I think he's the only thing keeping my plane flying. I talk to him a few times a day and I'll put in the word for you. Trust me, I've been where you are and it's a misserable place, but it does get better. I was with a woman for 4 years waiting for her to get better so I could get out.

God, grant me the scerinity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. It's from a friend of mine that's in AA, but it works for wives/girlfriends too.

Jeff Cooper
Gadsden, TN, - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 03:46:45 (ZULU)

"Dear God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to bury the bodies of those I hafta kill because they pissed me off."

Actually, Travis, my wife doesn't think she knows everything about horses. But, she has learned a thing or two about the horses ass by living with me for 15 years.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 07:05:03 (ZULU)

Charles,

I wasn't meaning to slam your wife, I'm talking about the looney 40 something morons that just seem to decide one day that they're horse "experts", despite having no background or experience with them, like that moron in the video. You know, the ones that will try to tell you that you don't understand the horse you've been riding for ten years, but they do?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 09:53:59 (ZULU)

Click. Unfuckingbelievable.

This kinda shit makes me want to stab a teacher in the eye with a crayon. "Weapons or anything that could be used as a weapon". Whoever wrote that should be beaten with a desk.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 10:28:16 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Click. Enjoy.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 11:39:18 (ZULU)

Thanks for all you kind words, and your prayers, guys. Some of you already know how much it means while you're going through it.

I was blessed to marry my best friend, and we've remained so despite somewhat differing interests (when we married she HATED guns, but just before this breakdown I almost had her interested in taking a basic-practical course a freind & I are teaching soon).

I know a good deal more about what's going on now than I did when I asked for your prayers. Our situation is 'stable' now, and she will recover fully I believe, but it will be a long recovery (like years).

Consequently, I have initiated a request for a compassionate discharge from the National Guard. The Army's been a big part of my life & my own identity, but my duty lies here with her now. I didn't put the uniform on for a retirement check and that's not a reason to stay either, not when one's duty is so clearly elsewhere.

Damn, I love this Bar! Thanks again guys, it means a lot.

Lito,

Grat news about Winchester. I've wondered for years why more of the wpn manufacturers didn't move South for that very reason, and also for the more friendly State governments. ...Guess Winchester found out the hard way.

Cat - Sunroof.... LOL

Bill

SSG Mac
Friday, October 26, 2007, at 12:29:03 (ZULU)

Jeff...

Dude... This you gotta understand.

There is no "firearms company" named Winchester.

The original company was Winchester, and they made guns AND ammunition.

Then, the family that owned Winchester, split up the two, and sold the ammunition division to Olin Chemical.

Then the Winchester firearms company dissolved in bankruptcy some 25~ish years ago.

The Family still owned the name, all trade marks, etc.

A new company, U.S. Repeating Arms Co (USRAC), was formed, and they LICENSED the name of Winchester, and the trademarks, etc.

They operated the New Haven plant, with most of the old workers (and the Godamned union).

The company that went out of business two years ago, was USRAC.

THEY ARE GONE - no more, nunja mas.

This new operation is by FN - they have no custom shop (yet), and have no connection to the USRAC that built your rifle.

FN bought all the tooling and other stuff at public auction, and moved it down south (smartest move in 80 years!!).

Browning, of Utah, does repair work on USRAC rifles, and they may be able to help you... but this new company has NO connection to USRAC, and no obligation to do any repairs to firearms made by USRAC.

Sorry to be the bearer of the bad news.

Travis - loved the cat thing - Meow ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 12:46:45 (ZULU)

Lito Thanks I kinda knew the history. It's not totally bad news. It Means the Winchester will be a good gun again. Kinda Like my harleys that were made before and after the "AMF shovelhead" years. I never figured what a bolling ball "AMF" company wanted with a motorcycle manufacturing company anyway. And the bikes that came out had about the same QC as you would expect from bolling balls. I had 2 of them. A 74 and a 76 model. Now I own before and after, a 50 and a 86. I'll never buy newer that 95 due to the computerization. "Old dog can, but doesn't want to learn new tricks.I'm sure they "browning" will take care of it. They did last time with that .300 win mag I had. I am looking foward to a new Winchester. I've alwaysliked them better than Remington anyway. "Oops did I day that out loud"

SSG Mac I'm glad to hear you're hanging in there. I couldn't with the one I had. But, I didn't have as much time invested, we had no childeren involved either. Not sure if you do. Anyway, I'll send up more prayers. They can't hurt, and they are going up for my benifit also, so I'll just kep adding yours on to mine.

Jeff Cooper
The Woods of, Tennessee, - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 13:23:22 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,bin a long time.

seems i only get my nass back on here when ive sad news.

One of our own passed away last week,

Sander Blom

Dutch Airborn- Sniper - Sniper Instructor.

died of a heart attack last weekend, aged 36.

he leaves behind a wife and a lot of mates.

dont know if any of you guys knew him, but he was a good guy, one of the dutch crowd who used to read or lurk here regularly. I classed him as a mate of mine.

I'll never forget the hunting trip we had to Scotland. Sander, Marco, Val, me and an old bavarian hunter called Martin. The cloggies all turned out with full milspec sniper gear, Val and Marco touting Sako TRG's and Sander is accursed Steyr SSG.

he bitched all week about that rifle, and eventualy bought an TRG too. I was carrying my custom remmy LRS, damned if i was going to lug one of those heavy SOB's up and down the Scottish hillsides,

What a trip.

We drank a load of beer, shot a load of deer and laughed our asses off all week long. Working in 2 man teams spotting and sniping deer.

The Dutch Army is a man down this week, and me and some other guys are a mate short.

Include his missus in your prayers this weekend. Sanders already teachin him upstairs to use mildots and probably still cussing about Steyr SSG's.

all the best

Pete

Pete Lincoln
D - Friday, October 26, 2007, at 23:35:43 (ZULU)

Pete, I'm sorry for the loss. 36 is young.

medicjim
Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 02:16:46 (ZULU)

Thanks Jim.

I would have liked to attend the funeral with the rest of the guys,full military honours, Val said the where expecting about 1200 folks, but i'm stuck in the mission control centre.. i'm actualy 3hrs and 13 minutes away from the end of my employment in the Space Race.

As of later today i'm full time in the custom gun trade.

And its about time i got my ass back on the roster instead of working all hours god sends, 36 is too young to go, as is 39, which is what i'll be in a little over a week, hence ive quit the space job and am getting a life back in more ways than one i hope.

Hope you guys are all doing well.

now how the heck do i change the email contact addy for the roster??

and anyone give me some good ideas for starting loads for this 9.3WSM wildcat i'm about to play around with ( not to mention the 9.3LapuaMag that i'll be playing with soon), I'm awfull rusty on this hand loading carry on.

Pete

Pete Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 02:52:09 (ZULU)

Pete:

Congratulations on your new career.

I'm reminded of the advice about finding a gunsmith:

"Good, fast and cheap - you can only pick two".

My sage advice about suppliers:

You can't *make* them do the right thing, you can only *offer* them the opportunity to do the right thing.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 11:35:47 (ZULU)

Hey gents,

Just wanted to swing in and say howdy. I haven't been actively lurking in the last little by and by, and I can't really say much as to what the future holds but I wanted to say hey and just let you know I was thinking about ya'll.

Take care gents,

Morgue

Joe M.

Don't have a Sat out here... running either Local or the net, and as per the ussual BS my Card is screwed up for who knows how long and I am stuck on the personal... so I'm pretty well off the voice lines. Drop a line when you can.

Doc.

I don't know if the boys have contacted you yet, I passed on the information and the sounded like they were going to give you a call... I appreciate everything and if you are ever out my way give me a call, i'm buying.

Mourge
SD, CA, US - Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 12:40:35 (ZULU)

Pete,

Sorry to hear about your loss. Always tough to lose a good friend.

Morgue,

Glad to help. Haven't heard from them yet. Hope the fires aren't close to your home.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, October 27, 2007, at 21:16:51 (ZULU)

Pete L;

Prayers said. Now quit being a stranger!

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, October 28, 2007, at 00:08:54 (ZULU)

Thanks Guys. Just wanted to let the sniper community know we lost a good guy.

I feel like I just got out of jail, I realized that i just didn't have a life anymore working 2 damn jobs 400km apart, traveling 1600km a week, and the shift work was killing me.

So here goes, planning - building permission for the retail store is in and build about to start in earnest. and i'm getting my fat ass on a fitness program,and i'm making time for hunting again, I aint shot an animal in over a year !!!! hell i used to hunt 5 times a week !!! hence got 4 days driven boar/deer and a rabbit pheasant day planned in November, as well as building a bunch of rifles, I even bought me a 4x4 again.

Life is too short, and all work and no play makes Pete a dull boy,

finding a gunsmith:

"Good, fast and cheap - you can only pick two".

Rod i'm gonna put that on my web site,

cheers guys, I guess ive come home, in more than one place eh..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 28, 2007, at 21:17:34 (ZULU)

To Sander, mate. Too young, but hell, lived a good one in the meantime.........

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 02:03:03 (ZULU)

Hi All!

Back from hunting camp. Worked four hunts, 32 days, and kept everyone fed and no food poisoning. Our hunters killed some nice bulls and mule deer. Had a few Griz. around but no problems except the loss of 150 lbs of dry dog food at the trailhead corrals. Sucker was a whopper by his prints and hungry!!

Dan have your # and will call...E-mail came after I left.

outa here

Markwell

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 03:11:23 (ZULU)

Is there any kind of reflective tape for night vision devices? About a week ago, I was in my sleeping bag, under a rain fly when a poacher took a shot at me. Luckily, he sucked as a shot and missed me at under 40 yards. There was no moon and it was heavily overcast so there was no possibility that there was enough light for him to have shot using conventional sights.

CDC'
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 03:44:01 (ZULU)

Try searching for IR Glint tape, many tactical supply shops will have it. It is very IR reflective and shows up well in NVD's.

CoryT
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 03:59:02 (ZULU)

CDC',

Are there IR luminescent sticks that you can hang by your tent? There are probably some other IR lights, LEDs, or other type of marking devices. I hadn't thought of such a situation, but it seems like a reasonable precaution.

Glad you are OK.

Duman
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 04:39:14 (ZULU)

CDC: Coulda been intensifier tubed scope---or thermal--or just a dumb ass shot in the dark. I have a bunch of little 3x5 IR flags left over from my trips abroad---you are welcome to them. Also have a little IR light that snaps on a 9v batt---I forget how long they go, but it is hours, not days. I may need your addy again---I have it somewhere...but ya know how that goes. I am still back hauling all my stuff into my new gunroom. And tying jute and burlap on a netted DCU (man, this is time consuming by yourself). If it was a thermal--I will let you know if the IR lights generate heat too, otherwise, you may want to mark with the reflective as well as a heat source. Based on the conditions, a thermal is likely. 1st and 2d gen tubes are shit without decent abient light---and the 3d gen tubes come at a steep price. Is poaching lucrative? Heheh.

Speaking of that, I have the pics of the room....now to get them to Ken H. Lazy ass Joe hasn't downloaded them to the 'puter yet.

Pete: 36 is way too young to go like that. I am sorry to hear it.

Yeah...no time like right now to shed the extra pounds. You and me both!

Jeff C: Me too---winnie over remmy any day! But I am a huge Sako fan for hunting riffles.

Just checking in...gotta get back to my ghillie tying party.

Joe M
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 05:08:34 (ZULU)

Joe M: It could have been thermal. The guy seems to have shot at my feet. That's where I felt the pressure wave. I expertly pitched the rain fly on a slight incline. My feet were lower than my head. I was in a sleeping bag, which was on a therma-rest pad, which was on a nylon pancho/ground cloth. All are slippery. During the night my sleeping bag slid downhill and my feet were poking out of the rain fly. I'm not that hep regarding NV, but I imagine that the part of the sleeping bag that was poking out of the rain fly was relatively warm - thus visible to thermal NV.

Good thing the guy completely sucked as a shot. It would have been damned charming if the clown would have blown my feet off.

CDC'
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 09:35:43 (ZULU)

Googling for "IR light stick" turns up lots of hits. Here is one:

http://www.maxmax.com/aXRayIRLightOrder.asp

6hr $1.50 ea

IR-only glint tape is a semi-restricted item. Since it is passive (i.e. it won't keep you awake at night), you may simply want to use conventional Scotchlite tape that would reflect in both visible and active IR. That would also ensure strong reflectance with a visible flashlight (i.e. jacklighting) too.

Googling for "Scotchlite self-adhesive" turns up lots of hits. Here are the details for a vendor that I use:

http://www.justmakeit.com/notions/scotchlite.html

Silver 25mm $5/meter (Adhesive - stick-on)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 10:01:50 (ZULU)

CDC,

Crazy thought here,but IR glint tape is reflective with the use of NV,correct?So by placeing strips of IR glint tape on your tent arent you ineffect making yourself a better target?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 11:14:22 (ZULU)

Unpat: "So by placeing strips of IR glint tape on your tent arent you ineffect making yourself a better target?"

Yes, but I'm assuming that the poacher isn't after humans. When I started yelling he quit shooting so he wasn't after me.

rr: I have the regular reflective tape on the tent pole. The tent pole for this rain fly is outside of the area covered by the fly. If regular reflective tape is detected by NV (is it?) the tape must have been obscured by bushes or something. This fly has another little pole by the feet that could benefit from a little reflective tape.

CDC'
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 19:59:52 (ZULU)

CDC,

Regular reflective tape will be visible with NVGs, if they are using an IR illuminator or there is some other light source to bounce back. It works just like the material they make road signs out of, reflects light back at the source. The IR tape just keeps the reflective tape from bouncing back the visible light. If you had standard reflective tape on your tent, he was either using thermal or took a shot in the dark. Or on gogs just saw a shape and fired. Either way, a dumbass is he.

Chemlight sticks work good, red works great if you want to be conspicuous to NVGs

S/F

Kush

Kush
Havelock, NC, - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 20:56:31 (ZULU)

There are several IC's on the market, designed specifically to flash LEDs. Added to some IR LEDs, designed to flash infrequently, it should be possible to make something last all night. You could even string something around, like Christmas lights... we could really get carried away with this.... :8-)

Scotchlite self-defensive tape ... kinda like 'hunter orange' for the night....

Duman
Monday, October 29, 2007, at 20:57:50 (ZULU)

<"Yes, but I'm assuming that the poacher isn't after humans. When I started yelling he quit shooting so he wasn't after me.">

Good to know he wasnt after humans,still dont change the fact he is a freakin moron for not correctly identifying what is and isnt a target.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, October 29, 2007, at 23:24:27 (ZULU)

Kush is right about the regular reflective tape reflecting IR. A fair number of the illegal aliens coming have the tape on their shoes and / or backpacks. They 'light up' the wearer from a long way off and are easy to spot if your on goggles.

Steve in Tucson
Tucson, AZ, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 01:53:48 (ZULU)

CDC,

Have you shipped that package?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The chilly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 05:22:58 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just checking in...

Pete, sorry to hear you lost your friend. Who would have thought someone 36 would die of a heart attack? By the way congratulations on your leaving the space agency and becoming a full time gunsmith. A case of "do what you love, the money will follow".

CDC, any idea why that dingbat picked you as a target of opportunity? Poaching I guess. Suppose even those guys are going high tech. Can't honestly say I've played with IR tape and devices. To rich for my blood and us non-grunt Marines rarely got to play with NVD's, etc. Mind you I retired in '94 and I'm sure the current fracas has driven technology a long way.

Deer hunting was a bust this year. Am hoping Elk will be better. Getting together with an old High School buddy who's been keeping tabs on the herds in some areas. Hopefully we'll bring home some meat. Could care less about a large rack. A nice tasty spike would do, thank you.

Jim, how is your recovery from surgery coming along. Let us know please.

Had the chance to chat with Bravo the other day. My wife says we carry on like two old women. She must know the calls are long because we only talk about important stuff...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 06:29:38 (ZULU)

Wes: "...any idea why that dingbat picked you as a target of opportunity?"

My guess is that the part of my sleeping bag that showed looked - through his NV scope - like the torso of whatever game animal the guy was trying to poach. The whole episode surprised me. What was the guy thinking? There was only one way out of there and there were hunters in the area where he was likely to have parked. The shooter couldn't have felt comfortable trying to haul away an illegal animal. What would he have done if he had killed an antlerless elk or deer? Just leave it? What if he just wounded something? It was snowing a wet snow and it was as dark as hell. There was no tracking it. Was he going to let it just run off and die?

It makes no sense.

Doc: Not yet. I'll make the time to ship it in the morning.

CDC'
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 09:50:54 (ZULU)

CDC, I guess return fire was out of question?

Like the Crocodile Dundee movie " The Cheeky Buggers have guns and

their shootin back " !!!!!

We have nuts here in Joisey ( Sound Shooters ) and with Rifled Slugs,

I don't venture into the woods during firearms deer season.

Not worth it !!!!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steve Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 11:03:36 (ZULU)

CDC...

I lived in PA for 5 years, and the farmers would paint "COW" on the sides of their herds during deer season, cuz 60% of the hunters were city slickers from New Yawk City!

On the night before deer season, the side road would filled with parked campers, with NY plates, waiting for the season to open in the morning.

We wouldn't go out of the house unless it was full daylight.

All the locals got their deer well before the season opened ;)

So paint "PERSON - NOT GAME AMINAL" on your sleeping bag.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 15:15:03 (ZULU)

Fuck paint! If it's that bad, set claymores!

Anyone have a spare set of .30-30 dies they wanna trade off or sell cheap?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 15:30:19 (ZULU)

I was at a gunshow in Houston last week and saw an unfired, well the guy said it was, Colt SP1 for sale for $1500.00 What's the going price for these rifles these days?

I also bought two Springfield XD's at the show, a .45 and a 9mm. I've carried Kimber 1911's for the last 8 years. Recently I started wanting a higher capacity .45. I have heard good things about the XD. I like the feel of the XD over the Glock, since the XD has the same grip angle as my Kimbers do.

About a month ago I was up in Oregon for some rifle training at Thunder Ranch and got to talking to Clint Smith about the XD's. It's his opinion that if the Glock and XD had come out on the market at the same time that the Glock never would have caught on like it had, the XD would have been the one to beat.

I have a metric shit ton of 9mm ammo to train with, hence the purchase of the 9, and I'll carry the .45. Both pistols have the same dimensions, weigh practically the same, same holsters, etc. I bought them different colors so there's no mistaking what I'm picking up.

I shot a hundred rounds through the pistol last weekend and really like the way it feels and shoots. It points very naturally for me. For sure, there'll be a lot of getting used to the different trigger pull, and long trigger reset, as compared to the Kimbers. It's nothing that won't be taken care of by dry firing and training with it though.

I've heard that there's an after market kit, or custom shop modification, or something that address' these issues to some extent. Is anyone familiar with what I'm talking about?

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 16:45:15 (ZULU)

Tony...

That was a good price for a very clean (like new) SP1. I'd pay that and more for good (original) one.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 17:48:41 (ZULU)

Tony,

Be sure to let us know if you find an aftermarket trigger that makes the XD halfway decent. I damn near paid the high price of a Kimber, just 'cause I liked the triggers so well. It kinda sucks to have fine triggers on my rifles, and crap on a handgun.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 18:21:42 (ZULU)

CDC: Package inbound today. You should be NVG-proof for "mistaken identity" once you receive it. After this, any shots taken inbound will merit return fire. Another thought--and the most likely scenario: The asshat poacher was using a combo of cheap russian NVG and IR light source (surefire makes one helluva illuminator and IR lens--and those walmart specials have integral IR lights). This combo overcomes the lack of ambient light easily inside of of 100 yards, and the el-cheapo NVG tubes will allow targeting of shapes despite their terrible resolution. Yeah---shit combination here---increased range and conditions' usage with all the faults of foriegn obselete tubes. Shooting "shapes" is just as bad as shooting sounds in this case! Those tubes suck so bad beyond 30 yards as to defy description. I found one in Iraq....god knows what it could be used for. Call me spoiled.

Good news is that the use of the IR illumination to aid an older NVG works to your benefit with the IR tape: They will reflect that source back to the NVG with a surprising intensity that will be impossible to mistake. I tossed in a couple of options---your imagination is your limit on their use.

Morgue: Email inbound---as well as a letter to your alternate stateside addy as previously discussed.

I'm off to the post office!

Lito: what makes the SP-1 desireable? I'm seriously curious about this AR variant. I know nuthin'--as Schultz might say.

Joe M
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 18:39:42 (ZULU)

And the S&W M&P's are even better than the XD's IMO.

Joe M, I sent a roster mail in response to the deer hunting offer a few days ago, check your spam folder or maybe there's some other glitch if you didn't get it. I'm pretty sure roster mail works for me, as I've had the same address for the last decade now.

IR glint tape works alright, but is generally a controlled item, for obvious reasons. IR chem lights work too but get expensive in a hurry. I have a few of the 9v IR strobes(Fireflies) but those often look like muzzle flashes if you just glance at them and are not expecting to see one(ie pilots). S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 18:49:37 (ZULU)

Joe M...

I'm sure as hell no expert on AR's... ask Bravo.

I got a creamy SP-1 with the Colts 3x ranging scope, in the early 90's. Mostly because they were going to pass a law in 60 days that said I couldn't buy one after the cutoff date.

It was "Cute", and weighed about one pound, nuttin'. I actually was thinking of replacing the pencil thin barrel with something a bit fatter. Then I took it to a Jon Farnam course on New Hampshire, and cleaned the course with it.

Then I fell in love with it, and everyone wanted to borrow it for the final quals, cuz nuttin could beat it.

That's when I decided that if the world got shity, I wanted my SP-1 and a bag of loaded mags to go.

As to actual cash value - I don't know, but they get gobbled up fast, and everywhere I take it, someone wants to buy it from me.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 20:16:01 (ZULU)

Guys,

Local gun shop has some AR lowers, either Bushmaster or DPMS. How much will it cost me, buying all spankin' new parts, to build one? (read, the ultimate AR)How difficult is it? I cant take aprt and reassemble my '94, my Ruger revolvers, etc., but have no experience with AR's. Also, if I want to shoot .308 and .223, will I have to buy 2 different lowers?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 20:53:31 (ZULU)

Travis,

A stripped AR lower should cost you under $175. If you get one, the USGI parts kit will cost another $50 or so... It took me about 15 munutes to assemble the pieces. Fun stuff!

I also agree with Ken, The Smith & Wesson M&P is really nice.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 21:24:55 (ZULU)

I'm told that Bushmaster has timed AR15 assembly events as some past Maine gun shows :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 22:55:43 (ZULU)

re: poacher story

Joe, great minds...

I was thinking active IR too. Makes the most sense when reviewing the after-action report. A little Scotchlite tape will light up like Times Square with active IR.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 30, 2007, at 23:01:58 (ZULU)

CDC - That's a bum story. I ducked a few slugs during a deer hunt, but in that case the guy knew I was there and figure the treeline I was perched in would deflect the slugs enough that he could shoot at the doe that was 20 yards up the same treeline and between him and I. I'm sure Joe took care of ya but if you want some green or yellow regular scotchlite tape let me know, I have some. In following the thread, I thought it probably works in the visible and the IR spectrum, but I wasn't sure. Figures that someone knew the answer!

Stripped AR lower should be had for more like $125 if you do your homework.....you can find them on sale for $99 - $125 plus whatever the shipping and transfer costs. A good FFL for that is a must. The market is flooded with good quality lowers. DPMS, Bushy, RRA, Stag, LMT. They are all good. Mil spec is generally mil spec, and that's the beauty of the AR system. As far as building up a rifle, I had good luck with a parts kit from M and A parts, I had the barrel fluted, put a free float on it, and turned it into a DMR rifle. I think they are in Ken Ms neighborhood. J&T also sells kits. You can pickup a complete parts kit for around $550, plus a lower reciever, and you are in business. I have also built a few rifles scrounging used and new parts off the internet, etc. None have been turds. I did have two uppers that needed work to function, oddly enough they were both used Bushy uppers that I got cheap (go figure). Like 'Lito, my all Colt pencil barrel carbine is my favorite, but mine isn't a real SP1, it's a Colt Carbine marked 9mm lower with the mag adapter block removed, and an SP1 carbine upper.

Here is a great online guide for building up your AR -

"Assemble your own AR15 rifle from parts.... for dummies."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 00:56:06 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I need some help/info for a troop over in the sandbox. He is required to carry both an M-4 and an M-9. Inside the wire neither can have a magazine inserted and they really pick up a lot of crud in a hurry. Is there anything you can use to cover the mag wells?

Thanks & Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 02:18:28 (ZULU)

Ken M: Sure enough--you are spam. I'll get ya those dates tomorrow. IIRC it is the week before thanksgiving and thru a few days after for gun deer---with an extension into december for antlerless---exact dates in an email in the morning:))

Doc: Hmmmm. The advantage of being a FG officer, i guess. I never bothered with the "clear" drill too much, until cleaning time. But empty mag wells? Methinks we are complacent beyond belief these days. But if one must remove his means of self defense and hafta carry around an aluminum club, then I'd use 100mph tape in a pinch or better (for gummy mess reduction)--electrical tape twice over. If time is on his side---have him hacksaw an old 30-round mag an inch below the magwell (to keep the fuckwads off his back), and tape-wrap the hell out of the bottom end---recommend safety orange. That'll be the easiest way to get something for nothing---it is reusable, and it comes out thru familiar motions. In fact, i'd drag over a kit bag full of such modifications, and sell them to the other victims of this pox on soldiers' policy. Hurumph...

Geoff: Ha! That was my guide to the homemade M4 conjured from the scrap pile (new-in-box AR parts getting tossed? yes, your tax dollars at work). Useful stuff for starting out!

Travis: Of course you have to buy two different lowers...and uppers too. The incidental parts are interchangeable--but the costly stuff is not.

joe m
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 02:50:00 (ZULU)

Doc...

Are they in a situation where they will need to load a mag in a hurry?

If not, then some Saran Wrap might do. It'll seal it well, and come off "reasonable" fast..... but I sure wouldn't want a blocked mag well in a time of stress, cuz you will do what you trained to do, and jam a mag into the saran wrap, and die :(((.

I can't think of anything that would not be in the way in time of incoming.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 10:07:38 (ZULU)

Doc,

I'm completely in agreement with Joe on this whole clearing/aluminum club carryin' Bull***t. The Army has so much "tail" wagging the rest of it that they're going to end up killing GIs. If I had my way every swinging richard in uniform would draw his personal wpn, a basic load, and carry it all in condition one. There'd be a rash of "accidents" (read negligence), and then people would learn. Of course, the Mommies and the Safety Nazis would never allow that.

While I was on my tour in Baghdad there was a rash of NGs, and the TF CSM came around to warn the NCOs that the CG was considering requiring everyone to go on missions in YELLOW status. I stood there -incredulous- thinking the bastad's PSD wasn't rolling out with wpns in yellow. I was also thinking there's no outward visual difference between yellow and red. In the end the CSM persuaded him against it, but even threatening it shows a disregard for those under your command. ...Damn, I get mad just thinking about it!

Condition yellow, Grrrr... MY BIG OL' BUTT! All'yall count your beans, shut up & let the men kill what needs killin, and quit ruinin' my life!

and Hawgs... Have a nice day.

(Edited to correct spellin, and add thinly veiled JB&B references)

SSG Mac
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 11:17:22 (ZULU)

Farnham said something about soldiers being afraid of their own weapons. The exact quote escapes me, but it wasn't flattering.

Thanks to all on the NV thread.

Doc: The stock is on its way.

CDC'
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 14:49:45 (ZULU)

SSG Mac....We have to carry our AR's in the case, in the trunk, with mags out and chambers empty. And you can't convince any of the 3-watt bulbs running the Department that it's a recipe for disaster. Of course, I just ignore all that, and keep it in the footwell on the other side of my MDT, mag in, chamber empty, Aimpoint on. F*** 'em, it's my life. Of course, I won't have to face an Article 15, but close to it. In any case, ETS is 3mos. 12 days. FIGMO.

I had the weirdest thing happen to me yesterday. I was JWA, FD&H, doing my daily ruck, when three wild turkey hens walked out of the woods and started pacing right alongside me. I'd stop, they'd stop. I started lecturing them about walking with strangers down a country road, they just started making a weird sound and kept walking alongside me. Staring at me. I started thinking of the raptors in "Jurassic Park". Out-freakin'-rageous. I was carrying my big walking stick, they didn't seem to notice. Wonder if they'll recognise a Winchester 1300?

Finger....LMK about the deer. I'm up for it.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 16:02:41 (ZULU)

Soldiers with unloaded weapons: It's a vicious circle - they're not safe because they're not used to carrying loaded weapons 24/7, and they're not carrying loaded weapons 24/7 because they're not safe. And, of course, they're not properly trained, either.

Charles: I had two flocks of wild turkeys - about 8 per flock - running down the caliche road on the ranch the Monday that first cold front came through. They're around here, but we don't often see them. I like having them around.

Had a BIG bobcat cross the pasture about 400 yards to the east of the house the other morning right about sunset. Being up and about early often brings unexpected pleasant surprises.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 19:12:27 (ZULU)

Sat country:

Can someone point me to an open-source "recent" sat picture of KAF?

Co-worker and I were discussing the amount of infrastructure that must be clustered around that oasis spot about now. Wanted to take a casual lookie.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 22:27:01 (ZULU)

AR15 pattern (M4/M16) Magazine Safety Block - $US6.50

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16326

Designed to be used with bolt open, but a hacksaw would make it into just a nice mag well dust cap that can be dumped with the magazine release.

No confusing it with a part of a magazine, you could probably even find it afterwards if you were still in the general area later.

Sad that it would come to this...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 22:42:03 (ZULU)

Out away from the Bn FOB, out at the coy CP's, everyone carried in condition 1, 24/7. There were no ND's. On the Bn FOB, where you went from 4 to 1 or vice versa when going out or coming back from patrol, there were several ND's due to people thinking they had a "safe" weapon.

Normal SOP for a non-douchebag Marine was some hazing, a metric shitload of remedial training, a pro forma NJP entered in the (deployment) SRB with all punishment suspended and he went forth and sinned no more. Since we just took SRB shells overseas, that paperwork got lost on the rotation home unless the Marine continued to be stupid. By and large, I look at the problem as one of our consistant and long term undertraining finally coming home to roost. While I don't especially blame the individual Marine for what is mostly a leadership failure, at the same time, you can't just say " that's OK" and pat them on the head like a slow child either.

Of course, when we had down time, and the vehicles and gear were all clean and PM'd, we'd go hit the little 30m range we had on base and get some live fire in. Or we'd shut down a road out on patrol and use that instead:) S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, October 31, 2007, at 23:47:45 (ZULU)

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