Sniper Country Duty Roster

I am at a loss for words, I never got the chance to meet Bruce in person but still consider him a friend. I am not sure where this comes from, but it is fitting I think:

May the road rise to meet you

May the wind be always at your back

May the sun shine warm upon your face,

The rains fall soft upon your fields

And until we meet again

May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

Farewell Bruce.

Louann, so very sorry for your loss, you and your family are in my prayers.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:31:47 (ZULU)

Having never met Bruce personally,( just through correspondence) I do know this from his FAITH..........

Louann, said his faith in the LORD , is what was his peace....

Today, one of our own, is truly at peace.....in the magnificent prescence of an omnipotent and Holy GOD...and HIS Saviour...

It doesn't EVER get any better than that.

Bruce is not resting........

" To be absent from the body, is to be present with the LORD".

The moment Bruce breathed his last earthly breath, he was face to face with the KING OF KINGS, and THE LORD OF LORD's.........Jesus Christ........

Bruce's real life is just beginning....eternal life, forever.

If he could come back, at this point he would not.

Bruce, see you soon.....my brother.

LouAnn, my prayers, and thoughts are with you and yours.....

May the Lord grant you peace in this time of your temporary loss, you WILL be together again.............your FAITH in his LORD will make it so.

AMEN

Terry
Monday, October 4, 2004, at 02:22:01 (ZULU)

Wretchedly busy time of the year, get some peace at work and discover Bruce is sick, then gone home. Never met him, back & forth a few times on the net. Like the MM, the bumper sticker is perfect, just enegmatic enough to get through to those who know. Try as you might, there just are no words at a time like this.

WR Moore
Monday, October 4, 2004, at 04:30:45 (ZULU)

Just got done with 3 good days of shooting, including a benefit match for a friend of mine, and read the news on Bruce.

Did not know him personally, another shooter I missed meeting. My prayers for the family and friends he left behind; I think Bruce needs no prayers, for he is using the MM up on the big UKD range in the sky.

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, U.S.A., U.S.A. - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 04:45:50 (ZULU)

I am saddened by the passing of Bruce. Years ago, when I called him to order a MM, he was kind enough to explain it to me, a neophyte that I was and still am. That spoke volumes.

I wonder if it would be possible to get a collection of patches from those in the LE and military community who use his product. I'll put in one from my department.

Godspeed Bruce. Louann, you and your family is in my thoughts.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:26:57 (ZULU)

Vaya con dios. Thank you from all the troops over here in the box.

Had a team make real contact for the first time last night, full IA drill, everyone came home. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M
Monday, October 4, 2004, at 11:24:44 (ZULU)

...my heart is truly saddened this morning with hearing the news of Bruce's passing, however much like Gooch - I rejoice in the fact that Bruce's journey through "this" life is over and now the best part has just begun !!!! To see our Savior, Jesus, face to face.......what a blessing we have in the Lord !!!!!

...you will be missed by friends and loved ones, but I will always remember you when I pull the "Mildot Master" from my kit to help deliver the next accurate shot................

...may your memory last forever !!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 14:05:59 (ZULU)

Just read of Bruce's passing, what a sad day this will be. For those of you who never met him he was a very unique person. I will cherish the memories. Rest in Peace old friend.......

Ken an Mike

Thanks for all the up dates an keeping us up to date on Bruce while he fought the good fight.

Pat
Monday, October 4, 2004, at 14:55:40 (ZULU)

Well more bad news i'm afraid. an old friend of mine died today, i've mentioned him on the roster before. He was a Stalingrad veteran, he may have been on the wrong side during the war (and he knew it) but he was proud to do his duty and fight for his country, even if he wasn't convinced of the leadership at the time. He saw more than his share of the combat, spent several years in a labour camp in Sibiria, but he was a kind and humble man, always willing to help and always there to be counted on.

Adolf Weber died today, none of you knew him, but he would have fitted in here with us and i will miss him. Funeral is thuirsday and i will be there to give him the final salute.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 16:47:49 (ZULU)

GOT MILDOTS ? ... you betcha.

Thanks Bruce.

brian k. sain
Monday, October 4, 2004, at 18:47:42 (ZULU)

Saturday I shot a CMP shoot at Red Castle, today I'm filling out my papers for a "new" M1. For the first time I don't have to think about what to name the rifle.

New years eve we will give another salute to Bruce.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 21:22:40 (ZULU)

Dear Friends

First, thank you to Ken and Marius for allowing me to post on this roster. Although Bruce used to laugh at me for "lurking" to find out how Joe was doing in the sandbox, this is a forum for some very special people, and I don't like to intrude.

I just wanted to thank you ALL, again, for the outpouring of love and support for Bruce while he was ill, and since he has passed away. I know I love him a lot, and it meant a lot to me to know that other people cared for him, also. He certainly cared for the people on this roster!

Bruce's passing was very peaceful...we had Last Rites for him on Saturday morning, and by 5:00 p.m. he slipped away. He did it like he wanted to!!! Bruce and I had the opportunity to talk about our wishes on the long drives to Tennessee, and he wanted to be cremated. I remember asking him where he wanted me to scatter his ashes, and he got a little twinkle in his eye and chuckled, and said, "You'll know where." So, I'm trying to think of all the places he loved and making myself mental notes. That will come later.

Bruce hated funerals. He wanted a big party, instead, where everyone could swap stories and lies, and raise a toast for Godspeed. We had just such a wake last night for Bruce in our neighborhood. They made green CHILE rellenos and the Mexican beer was flowing....it was wonderful. I could feel his presence: he liked it, too.

I'll get to repeat this in a few weeks when I get back to TN for some R&R with my friends and family. In the meantime, Bruce left me some work to do running Mildot Enterprises.

I do want to share a reading with you: Bruce's "Israeli friend" and sister had me read it to him while he was in the hospital and until he died. So, bear with me, please.

Malachi 3:16-17 (KJV)

"Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."

So, Godspeed, Bruce Robinson. Your name is in the Book of Remembrances.

Thank you, again, for all your thoughts and prayer. He loved this roster!

LouAnn Robinson

LouAnn Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 21:23:35 (ZULU)

LouAnn,

I don't know what to say. Yesterday afternoon when we came back from the farm I immediately logged on to take a look - dreading at the news I might find. Had I but been wrong! For the rest of the evening until late night I just sat dawdling here at the PC.

But I know that God has made the call, and that He is never wrong. We may not understand His call, nor the timing of it, but we do know that He is always right. We might not understand that right now, but one day we will - when it wouldn't matter any more in any case. One thing I DO know is that Bruce is far better off than any of us who's left behind. I do not know how you feel. I've lost my father and a brother, but not a spouse. And even if I had I still would not know how YOU feel. But I do know that He is with you all the way, even, no, especially, in this time of grief.

One thing you must know, is that there's still a lot of prayers going up for you and the family from here. There's a lot of people still carrying you every day. You are always welcome here. You have a home here at Sniper Country. You will always be one of us. And that is not just for what Bruce was and stood for, but also for what you were and still is. Standing next to him and supporting him all the way, in all the things the two of you did for so many people you never knew, and never will.

Bruce has left a legacy, both here on Sniper Country, and in the shooting community in general. And that is not just because of the MilDot Master, but also for his guidance and mentoring; for his patience in helping others; his advice and tutoring; answering questions where he could. He will be missed, that is true.

One of these days when all is settled down a bit, and you have a MilDot left over, I will bother you with an order for one. I've never gotten one, always thought about it, and then thought about the cost out to South Africa, and left it at that. But this time I'll do it. Rather late than never... If there's any left that is.

LouAnn, you take care of yourself, and the family, and remember:

"The Almighty God, who reveals Himself to you,
Is in front of you to even out the road for you.
He is next to you to hold you in His arms.
He is behind you to protect you from the attacks of your enemies from your rear.
He is beneath you to catch you should you fall.
He is around you to protect you.
He is above you to bless you.
And above all, He is within you to make you strong, and to lead you."

Marius

Marius
Monday, October 4, 2004, at 21:26:14 (ZULU)

LouAnn,

Deepest sympathies, I really don't know what else to say at times like these. And don't you dare feel your intruding on us!;-) I'm sure everyone on here would be delighted if you stuck around.

Take care and all the best.

Pete,

I remember a few of the tales you told me about your mate. Regardless of whose side he was on, he sounds a brave man. No one should have to endure the things he did, or see the sights he saw. Hopefully he can be at peace now.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Monday, October 4, 2004, at 22:29:22 (ZULU)

LouAnn,

I most definitely agree with Jon. You could never be considered an intruder and I would also be delighted if you stuck around.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 00:56:53 (ZULU)

LouAnn

Bruce will live forever in the hearts of those that knew him.

Stories will be told. laughter will ring out over the humerous memories.

Warriors in far off lands will think of Bruce when they use the Mildot's

Bruce will become a bigger legend in the shooting world.

Many years in the future, warriors will talk about the good old days when they needed to use the mildot master instead of the newest electric infared gizmo range finder thermo imager and marvel about the man who invented it.

These menories will begin with "Back in the Old Corps" "in my Army"

Bruce will remain with us until our memories fade then the younger generation will pick up the history and Bruce will live with them.

When granddads teach thier grandsons or great grandsons about thier military life they will also teach them about Bruce.

Bruce has been welcomed and received into the Warrior Fold. What an honor. many try and can't come close.

Prayers are with you

Bomac

bomac
Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 02:48:37 (ZULU)

LouAnn, you also have my deepest sympathy. I had never met Bruce, only through GFG and emails. Bruce was very proud of you as well. He knew he had a jewel.

When the worst of the grieving is done, please continue Mildot Enterprises. I also do not have one yet.

Please stick around.

Best wishes,

Larry

(Sharon)

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 03:58:50 (ZULU)

All,

I've been jauntin round the country shootin a few matchs for the past 2 or 3 years. It all started cause I was so impressed by the apparent quality of individual who aspires to accomplish this sport that I wanted to meet a few. I've commented on this before and this recent turn of events has reinforced my decision to continue to enrich my own life and a few of my skills by attending more events and meeting as many more of you as I can. I am in your debt.

John

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 11:58:42 (ZULU)

John, you're more than welcome, and LouAnn knows that if she needs anything (especially with MM)she can call on any of us.

Brogers
Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 14:15:02 (ZULU)

LouAnn, take care and dont go away from the board.

Lots of work still to be done.

MikeMiller

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 15:52:16 (ZULU)

LouAnn, I'm echoing with the rest--stay, please! You are married into this family, and family you are. We'd be honored to hear from you from time to time. Also, keep the Mildot ent. going! I could not "leave country" with mine....it was needed where it was. So, like many here on this roster---I, too, need one.

Peanut update: Still doing her maintenance meds---no chemo, still in full remission. Yesterday's blood tests were nothin' but good---still, I sweat each one. I am reluctant to declare victory---but it sure is looking like one with each passing test.

My first hunting seasons open this weekend. First up, turkey for me and the boy....and it's legal to start thinning out the crows. edited to remove a misunderestimate of caliber choices.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 17:20:24 (ZULU)

Joe,

Good to hear the news about Peanut. I understand sweatin every test. Email comin' ur way.

John

John
Bruce Robinson Oct 3, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 17:23:47 (ZULU)

Good news Joe.

Get them Crows!!

Good Hunting.

Edited

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 19:43:44 (ZULU)

News you can use!

Indiana Rep. Hostetler's law office paid his court costs today to prevent him from being picked up on bench warrant issued in Kentucky. He was arrested and convicted of carrying a concealed weapon(pistol) into the Louisville Airport. I guess he plead guilty.

That's my paraphrase of an AP article in our local paper today.

I think I'd still be under the jail sumwhere, huh?

John

John
Bruce N. Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct. 2, 2004; The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 21:13:25 (ZULU)

Joe U....uhhh, yeah...that's it...and BTW, thanks.

who knew?

edited where appropriate.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 22:45:34 (ZULU)

LouAnn,

Welcome to the board, and please, always feel welcome amongst us. Bruce may have loved this roster, but no more than we loved him. He will be sorely missed.

Rob and Tuesday Martin

Pete,

Tip one up for our fallen comrades this weekend. Marius and I will do the same, and have one with a moment of to honor those who have left us so recently. And no, I haven't forgotten the bolt, just been too busy cleaning up and repairing from storms. Hope all goes well for you with your other worry.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Tuesday, October 5, 2004, at 23:11:44 (ZULU)

Rob, we will give the former Panzer Grenadier a good send off and i'll be thinking of Bruce and some other's at the same time.

I dunno what the hell to do about the other problem, a complete fresh start is required, but convincing the little lady is the key to it all, its still all my fault at the mo, we love each other(well we did till 2 weeks ago) but have always let all sorts of other shit get in the way and take priority, add in some PND, a problem child hood on her side, maybe a little PTSD, a likeing for beer, a stressfull job that can lead to me bieng short fused and a jack the lad attitude at times on my side and you end up right where we are. I'm suffering at the mo, ain't never felt as bad, she feels the same or worse i guess. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel but she is an eternal pessimist. We've been through a lot together, always some how held it together, i just hope we can this time. I've been a darn fool and i admit it, but i can honestly say that i don't know many guys who would have, given the same situation, done any different. I have a lovely wife who just needs some TLC, i just wish i'd known all the facts and realised this earlier.

sorry for bothering you all with my personal shit, i just ain't got many places to turn to. problem shared n all that.

anyway. watched an interesting thing on the History channel today about Police Snipers. Was gonna go out piggy huntin last night, thought i'd just catch a half hour shut eye first and head out about 21.00 , next thing i know the dog is waking me up cos she needs to pee and its 06.00, guess i needed the sleep, Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 00:24:20 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Great news about Peanut. She's still in our prayers. Glad you're back among the "Good Guys" and still in one piece. Thanks for all you did over there. Please look me up if you ever get down to Missouri.

John Leveron,

Thanks for all the help and instruction you gave this old varmint during three days of pistol shooting at Chapman Academy! Several years back, I think it was unDude Mike who said that a pistol was a tool that allowed you to get to a real weapon, i.e. a rifle or a shotgun. After going through your class I feel much more confident that I could indeed fight my way to a "real" weapon!

Hawgs,

If you need or want some great pistol/handgun instruction, Chapman Academy is the place to get it.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 00:29:23 (ZULU)

LuAnn, you hang around here girl. Like was said earlier, when you hitched up with Bruce, you hitched up with a couple thousand of his personal and internet buds.

Joe, good news about Peanut is welcomed any time. Working at a hospital for 15 years sometimes steers me to look at how bad things can get. Hearing about Peanut makes me remember how good things can get.

Pete, dang it man, my grandma told me one time that if it was meant to be, it would be. Hang in there as long as you think it is worthwhile. Many of us have been through it, it's not fun but hockey happens sometimes. Mine cost me a load of money and it wasn't even my doing. The lovely and vivacious Meatwoman and I have never gotten hitched, but after living together for almost 15 years, we figger we have stayed together almost longer than all three of our marraiges put togther.

Leaving for Butner and the Nationals Thursday. Don't know if I can take Masters JR Moore and Cockerham for three nights and days. I will probably just come home slapping myself in the forehead wondering what happened. I really wish I was a good enough shot to dedicate the match to Bruce. As bad as I've been shooting lately, it would probably shame him more that make him proud.

Git-R-Done, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 03:54:47 (ZULU)

Louann - As the others have stated, stay around and add your voice to the semi lunacy that is so appealling about this place. :)

Joe - Great News!

Doc Holloway - PISTOL!!!!???? Man I don't let those suckers get within 500 meters of my old butt!! :)

Brian - Until next time we can hoist a few beers and tall lies! How did Mike do at the shoot?

Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 03:58:09 (ZULU)

Pete; It is worthy of note that you are both miserable and that means you both still care. I've lived with the same woman for 46 years this month. IF I had to nail it down while we are still here, it's learning to be comfortable with your misery and not getting in the way of the other when you decide to celebrate that misery in your own seperate ways. There's a song here in the country about being "strong enough to bend". The one constant is that you will damn sure have to bend. There's too much made in the world of couples being "happy". IF it happens for a time they get used to it and when the enevitable happens it's such a let down it's hard to deal with. Constant strife is the secret of marital success. Kid's are the best contributor to misery and the strongest reason to overcome it's effects. Love itself is a big contributor to the problem. I've raised 2 families back to back now and the extra misery of thinking you can get it right the second time and seeing it all repeat is both educational and euphoric but useless when it all turns to crap again..... I have a ALICE packed with enough food and gear to disappear forever and it's been in the closet for 25 years replacing another old pack worn from nail hanging fatigue. Everyone needs an out and the real trouble starts when somebody gets to thinking they don't have one. The urgency to see the problem go away causes folks to do things that anybody can see they will regret very shortly. (like shouldering a pack and living in the woods). The presence of the pack keeps me warm and fuzzy if things ultimately go wrong but it helps me see clearly what the choices really are. Even if somebody thinks a new partner in crime is the answer the real practicioner will take his pack along when the final choice is made, just in case. I'm serious as death.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 04:26:02 (ZULU)

Bolt; I just read your post slipped in behind mine. Profound! I be thinking you and meat woman be living out of the same pack if worse comes to worse.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 04:33:20 (ZULU)

Bill, some good advice in there, i'll take it. basicaly me n the little lady went through a bad patch about 2 years ago, due realy to the misery of post natal depression, i'd taken all i could and then some, wanted out and went astray, realised it was a mistake decided to stick it out providing wife got help and changed some, she did. I didn't tell her all of what i'd done(basicaly shat on my own door step in a drunken foolish move, i was taken advantage of, believe it or not) because i'd hurt her enough with what she knew already. Since then things had realy realy improved. 2 weeks ago she finds out what i ommited to tell her and its now as if it happened last week, i'm the biggest SOB in the world and its all my fault, everything i ever did wrong has re-appeared (hell hath no fury like a womans scorn). Well i understand she is hurt and angry but i don't want to throw everything away because of something that happened 2 years ago.Dammit ive 2 kids and a house to loose, but the truth is i just don't want to loose my wife. She says her feelings just disapeared, i say the hurt and anger is hiding em.

hell i dunno why i am discussing this openly, guess i'm at my whits end,i am at my whits end, devastated is a good word for it. I can't damn well think straight,sleep or eat which is a bitch with a job like mine. The little lady and my kids mean the world to me.

i'm i a mess and i need to get a grip.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 04:50:57 (ZULU)

I just got back to the computer and learned of Bruce. A sad day and all my sympathy to you LouAnn. From the contact I had with Bruce it was instanly apparent he was a hell of a guy and welcome at my beer keg anytime. Bruce has gone to a place where there's a lot of great sailors, soldiers, airmen, marines, cops, firefighters and people in general that will show him the ropes and make sure he's taken care of. My dad is probably asking him about politics and TV right now while my uncle is getting into it with him over the chile v chili thing. And don't worry he'll eat well if my grandma has anthing to say about it.

LouAnn you're part of the family so please stay and keep in touch.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kommiefornia, US of A - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 05:31:53 (ZULU)

Pete....Go directly into counseling, do not stop at "GO". Prayer helps too....

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 05:35:54 (ZULU)

Gooch. we did that after our bad patch 2 years ago,it worked, i already had an appointment last week, can't force her to go, but i wrote the appointments on the calendar and invited her along,, i'm hoping she will come to the next but one. she is and always was an eternal pessimist.. aaarrrggghhh!! she always drove me mad, but damn i wouldn't swap her for all the tea in china.

Guys thanks for all the words of support,,here and per email,, you guys are like my family, my brothers (and sisters), its good to know that us roster hawgs can always turn to each other in a crisis,, its about all thats keeping me functioning at the mo,, that and my daughter..

its been a long night,,shift almost done..

pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 05:41:34 (ZULU)

Pete...Good luck...Put God first the rest will fall into place...eventually..."patience"...I hate that word sometimes.....

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 06:23:24 (ZULU)

Hi Joe, that's great news about Peanut, keep us posted everytime you get more good news

LouAnn: I have not posted with my get well wishes and then condolences for Bruce through all of this since so many others have used much better words than I can come up with. I bet there are many more lurkers who have said prayers than have publiclly expressed them. I'd like to offer my condolences now and thank you both for all you've done with the GFG program, I never expected to get a personal thank you note when I made a donation. That was a very nice touch.

Don't even think about leaving the board or lurking, you are family here and your input is wanted.

Pete: I've been married for twenty five years and have been through a few things. Right now I'm going through tougher times than I ever expected to have to weather. I could easily pull stakes and run and most would say I was justified, but in my mind it hasn't quite reached that point yet, when I weigh the pros and cons against each other. I say all of that to offer this, when you have a problem with a car or a rifle and you don't know how to fix it, you take it to someone who knows how to, like a mechanic or a rifle smith. If I've learned anything in my twenty five years it's that you must have good communication and trust and respect. When one of these pillars are damaged it is pretty hard to recover, but it can be fixed if both of you want to. I really recommend to you that you get some professional counseling, kind of like a mechanic for your marriage. I never thought that I would be a candidate for this and really don't look forward to airing my dirty laundry to someone I don't know but I know that some times you have to put up with some crap to get something you really want. Have you told your wife what you told us here, if not you need to suck it up and tell her what's in your heart. If you do eventually break up you need to be able to look your kids in the eye and tell them you tried everything possible to save the marriage.

Good luck buddy, and believe me, I know it's a lot easier to give advice on the internet than it is to choke down that feeling that your going to throw up and face the problem that confronts you head on, but that's how it has to be done.

Email me off roster if you want to and we'll cry on each others shoulders.

Sorry for all of this unshooting related stuff guys.

Tony Burkes
TEXAS, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 13:45:06 (ZULU)

Pete....hang in there man.....take some time off and get re-aquainted with her !!! But most importantly, if you really want it to work, pray, pray, pray.....

JRMoore

PS....I'll let everyone know how Bolt behaves this weekend as Paul and I are his legal babysitters for the next three days !!!! If we could only teach that boy how to shoot !!!!!!!!!

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 14:15:01 (ZULU)

Pete; I doubt there's anybody here that hasn't been in pretty close to the same situation. It's a fact that women have a damn good recall of history when these things happen. The details get a little fuzzy at times depending on what it is they want to remember but anyhow, I don't know how we got to the level of intamacy on SC we are but this is just one big fox hole around here. It does help to talk about things to other people you know do care about you and the ones that don't, don't matter much. I've gotten so used the women in my house that I haven't thought about grabbing that pack in oh.....about 48 hours now. I think the biggest help in seeking professional help is that it proves you both want to settle it, and usually both want to bring in a third party so they can prove it's not their fault but they are willing to settle it.... This kid I knew,who wrote songs a while back and grew up pumping gas in a town next to mine in OKlahoma. His best line was in my opinion...

"Pride is the chief cause in the decline in the number of husbands and wives." But life finally got to him too in the form of too much excess and problems he couldn't handle. I think your willingness to share your feelings with us other bar patrons pretty well eliminates that as the primary cause. Ya'll try to get together and that's half the problem gone right there. Life's too damn short the way it is.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 14:32:25 (ZULU)

Pete,

My last divorce (yeah, I number them) got outta hand faster than I realized. Didn't want it for the little guys sake...but I was too slow to realize what I had done to bring it on. I was the last person I blamed for the mess, and the person most responsible. That cost me emotionally, and of course, financially.

You have admitted your problem already. That seems to be a positive for you while you still have a fighting chance.

Be persistant, honest from the heart.

But do not make it a pressure situation for her. The more you push her to stay, the more she will pull away. That my friend is a hard row to hoe. I can only say a prayer and wish you the best on that tight-rope walk.

But considering my past, realizing your own faults in a bad situation is more than I was able to do in time. I see that as a hopeful sign in your case.

Stop here if you do not want to know "the other side of the story"

After all was said and done, I managed to survive somehow that divorce, I managed to keep Blake with me, and I landed square on my feet, thanking God for his wisdom and kindness for giving me such an opportunity with my current wife. You bet I am a henpecked apologist working to spoil her rotten. And dang happy too, much to my initial surprise!

Either way it goes, there is hope waiting to catch you by surprise.

For now, hang in there, and gently make your case.

Womenfolk ain't interested in your logic. Making your case may involve a lengthy demonstration of a new Pete. Have patience man...and go easy.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 15:04:43 (ZULU)

Hey Guys just checking in with some info for you. Read the following:

FREE PACKING MATERIALS FOR FAMILY MEMBERS OF DEPLOYED PERSONN EL

(UNCLASSIFIED)

Importance: High

The United States Postal Service is offering free packing materials to

spouses and families of military members who are deployed overseas. To

take advantage of this service call: 1-800-610-8734 and press 1 (for

English & then 3 for an operator) and they will send you free boxes,

packing materials, tape and mailing labels. These products are to be

used to mail care packages to service members.

If this helps any one out it was worth the bandwidth.

I'll check back when I get some time to get more caught up. I have two pistol mathces coming up shortll and I needs my practice.

Dirty Steve

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 16:13:37 (ZULU)

Pete...

This will likely get me blasted by anyone of the female persuasion on this board...

And, it is gonna make me sound like a cold, calculated, uncaring husband... (which I am not... well, maybe cold, but not uncaring)

I have observed, wading through much dis-information, that women assess the quality of their relationship based on how their friends respond to anecdotal reports of your actions.. in short, you need to give her something to brag to her friends about..

My highly disciplined approach to addressing this need goes as follows...

#1 - every six months, I sit down and come up with a list of at least six creative ideas that will likely generate a "brag" out of my wife... some are cheap, simple things... some involve a bit more...I keep the cost low and the creativity high.

#2 - I then randomly plot out a delivery schedule... I allow for some flexibility.

#3 - I then deliver on the list, on a fairly regular basis...I try very hard to not have a cause / effect relationship... I actually hold back if she does something nice the day before...I want the act to appear completely out of the blue

#4 - I never, ever mention the planning phase, and I never, ever refer to the nice things I do during an argument... doing so would diminish the effort for an extended period and make it not worth the effort...

here is one example...

My wife was having trouble sleeping... so one night, I bought some of that stinky stuff you put in a bowl (potpourri or some such)... I also washed all her bedding and set out a new terry cloth bathrobe...I setup the bath with a few candles she had laying about and purchased a half dozen roses... five went into a vase next to her bed, one was set on her pillow with a simple note (expressing concern for her and a sincere wish that she get some pleasant sleep). I ran her a bath and told her to go upstairs and relax, I would put our daughter to bed... she was told to go from bath to bed and get a good night sleep. I told her she could not speak to me until the next morning.

Her girlfriends confirmed the points scored at our next social outing...the tone of envy and "why can't my husband be that considerate" are key....

best regards.

Jim - ducking for cover.

My total investment was about 1 hour of work and $40 USD...

medicjim
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 16:27:41 (ZULU)

Well, this seems to have turned into Relationship Country, so I'll throw in my two bits, which may be overpriced.

Robert A. Heinlein said, "If it turns out, in a family argument, that you're right, apologize at once."

I've found that to be good advice. Also, apologize if you're wrong.

There are people who are willing to do anything, including dying or killing someone else, not to mention losing relationships, in order to be right. That doesn't seem to be a useful policy to me.

Get used to being wrong. For guys, that's the job description, anyway.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 17:12:58 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I normally don't post stuff like this, butthis was sent by my "special lady friend" and thought it was pretty cool

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, and then he starts to kick her to death.

Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son....what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says, "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." Our son says "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?"

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him..."Why?"

"Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who needs it...and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself...Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's questions and he tells him..."Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before.....it's too late." my husband whispers. THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window.

So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN

Major Joe, good to hear about Peanut, hope all stays well

Later Hawgs

Kush out

Kush
The Beach, With No Water, Somewhere near the persial gulf.... - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 17:37:51 (ZULU)

Dear Ann Landers: I used to be in a tight knit, coherent group of men and women, who shared a common interest in firearms. It seems that recently the group has taken an interest in relationships and marriage counseling...what should I do to get them back on track?

Wes

Dear Wes: This is a tough one. My own group let me down by not fighting hard enough for the renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban, etc.

I feel your pain.

As much as I dislike recommending it I suggest that you by a new, exotic, and expensive tactical rifle and equipment. Then test it and post results, ask advice, and pontificate on the why's and wherefore's of the new gear. This should get the crew refocused and calibrated...;-)

A warning, though. Such an expensive outlay may put considerable strain on your own relationship when "she who must be obeyed" finds out that for the same amount of money she could have had new furniture...;-)

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ann L.

Hope you folks took this as tongue in cheek humor...

Pete, will hit you off-line with my experiences with marriages(yes, that's multiple).

Got a new wind meter. Cost $15. Will report back. No batteries to go south, as it's "wind powered".

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 17:59:21 (ZULU)

Pete,

Being the male chauvanist, spouse abusing SOB that some of my wife's family believes me to be, I have a couple of book recommendations. They will require a little reading on your part. One book is called "The Five Love Languages". It sounds tooty fruity, but the author is right on the money. It basically helps you figure out what makes your partner happy. For instance, my wife shows people that she loves them by performing acts of service (baking stuff, sewing things, cooking meals, etc) and by spending quality time with them. Now personally, I think that stuff is nice, but not on the top of my list. However, when I want to make some big points with her, I will do something I really don't want to do, like (gulp) housework (act of service). It's kinda along the lines of what medicjim said. I get big bragging points from her when I do stuff like that.

My in-laws teach marriage prep for their church, and require the couples to read it. Get the book, read it, and do what it says. It's cheaper and less painful than not doing it. The missus needs to read it too.

Read the "Mars and Venus" books. They give insights into how women exist in a world of emotions, feelings, and lack of reason, and how to negotiate that minefield. (ducking) I can write this now since "she who must be obeyed" is not here. LOL. Of course, her ESP kicked in, and she called right when I finished that line.

Best of luck to you. We're going on sixteen years now, so read the books!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the rest of you, this kinda has application to the purpose of this board. If Pete can patch things with the missus, then he won't have to spend money on a lawyer. Then he can spend that money on expensive European toys, and give us all the benefit of the Pete Lincoln Offical Pig Testing Program, also known as PLOPTP.

Okay, I'll go back to work on my ghillie suit. See ya all next year when it's done.

Jim

Jim T
Soldotna, AK, USA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 19:45:56 (ZULU)

Relationship country !! ha,, sorry guys i needed a vent and i didn't know where else, the amount of replies and emails i got with support and advice was great, sure as hell cheered me up no end. Thank You All !!! we are just one big family on here and that my friends is a good thing.. makes me miss the cameraderie of the forces whilst at the same time replacing it, but makes me glad i landed here on the roster all those moons ago. in my what must it be now? 3 years maybe 4 as a roster hawg i have met some of the best people i have ever met, made more friends and as good friends than i made in 10 years in the Army, and had the pleasure to swap emails and information with a great bunch of guys and gals.. No wonder Bruce loved the roster so much, i guess we all do. god bless you all.

LouAnn please stick around, we need to know how you are and we are all here for you..

Well i guess we should get back to talking rifles eh?

Jon the BBl'd action turned up, let you know what its like.

JR, been meaning to email you for weeks, sorry i will get round to it..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 19:46:58 (ZULU)

I'll ask again...

Anyone know anything about the Swiss 6 x 47 round made by RAUG for the Swiss shooting team. I managed to discover that it is something of a wildcat of the .222 mag.

I ask this because I have become really interested in the long range performance of the 6mmBR, but would like to build a magazine fed bolt gun, and the 6BR seems kinda short and fat for mag feeding....

medicjim
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 20:54:33 (ZULU)

Sir Wes: Baaawhawhaw!

Timing is everything (or so the commercial tells me) and yours was impeccable :)))

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 21:23:39 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I have a string and loop coming outta my neck below the collar. When you pull it I'll say "Gee honey I'm sorry." Just like a good fellow should. It's painless unless I actually NEED to mean it. :)

John

John
Bruce Robinson Oct 3, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 21:33:35 (ZULU)

medic Jim, the 6x47 is becoming popular here in europe for the 300m matches. i have seen a few rifles chambered for this, this year at the IWA there was a SWS2000 chambered for it and they had some real impressive targets with it to show off. The thing was designed for the european macth circuit. has a 105gr 6mm bullet (a max) uses large rifle primers, basicaly its a lengthened 6mm BR Norma, it used a 1 turn in 8.2 inch twist. the round offers excellent pracision with factory ammo and low recoil.

http://www.swissmun.ch/d/about/swissmatch/SwissMatch_6x47_e.pdf

or check out the ruag web site.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 21:49:27 (ZULU)

Thanks Pete...

If your woman has a certain sense of humor, you might consider this poster....http://www.despair.com/demotivators/noname13.html

Then again, maybe NOT...

some of the other posters on this site are pretty funny...

medicjim
Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 21:51:27 (ZULU)

Jim,case head size for 6x47 is same as 308 win. .473 ( 12.01mm). and that web site has some interesting stuff, a few posters would apply here at work..

On another interesting and less gloomy point,I recently became an active member or the Armourers Association, which is the association for Ex British Army (REME or RASC) Armourers, Gun Fitters are also welcome due to the fact that all weapons tech's nowadays are apparently trained as Armourers and then given specific training for the bigger guns if they go to tanks or Arty. There is a yearly re-union at the Victory Services Club in London, so i am looking forward to that, gonna see if i can get my brother inlaw along as he was a REME Gunfitter, be good to catch up with some old mates.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 22:18:37 (ZULU)

Bill Clintons favorite white house christmas party game?

swallow my leader..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 23:33:46 (ZULU)

RICK: Try and make Sniperweek ... will be great this trip.

Mike's team kinda fell apart. I think they finished six or eight back.

brian k. sain
Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 00:35:26 (ZULU)

Pete;

What does REME stand for? Also, no word yet on the export license/permit. Nobody in our government knows who I'm supposed to talk to!

ALL;

I have a FFL and want to send(export) hunting rifles to some possible customers(dealers) overseas. Does anybody know who I need to contact?

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 02:15:59 (ZULU)

I dont' hardly ever do this, but I stumbled across this on another board. Hard to believe that a California University Newspaper would print this.

Copy and paste or click on my name.

http://www.lavozdeanza.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/10/04/416097bdb83d7

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 02:30:45 (ZULU)

Wes - If your new wind meter is clear plastic with a little white ball in a tube I would not trust it. The ball gets damp in humidity and it takes about 10 mph of wind to move that little ball. This then becomes the norm with the ball not moving at times when you can feel the wind. I believe it is calle an ananometer and it has been outlawed by the military for reading winds on jumps for being to inaccurate. All we use it for is to see if it is over 15 mph. I have seen the ball not move in 12 mph winds and register only 3 to 5 mph in 20 mpoh winds. YOu know you have a problem when the ball is stuck around 20 mph and there is not wind at all. :(

Please tell me that this is NOT the wind meter that you bought. They put the dam things in the sniper accessory bags for the military snipers. We had a fit over them but Benning left them in the kit anyway. OH well.

Lindy - Married for 33 years to the same old battle axe. Reason for so long, I always apologize whether it is my fault or not and then have the satisfaction of knowing that I am right. :)

Brian - I have broached the subject and got a non committal kind of stare. Will wait and see what happens. To bad about Mike, he ever figure out the furniture?

Gotta go, Got first day on the range tomorrow with my new load of little sniper pups. :)

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 03:15:45 (ZULU)

Just a quick status report.

Packed up most of my gear and am ready to head to Butner today at ~1400. Bringing two (2) 308s and a pile of ammo, spare scope MK4 M3 (the straight 10X version... may be up for trade or sale).

I'm booked at the Holiday Inn Express on West Lyon Station Rd.

White 2004 (ugly grill) Chev 2500 crew cab, 'lunium diamond tread toolbox in the back.

I'll see some of you at the shoot, good luck!

Dave "Doc" King
MD, - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 10:52:23 (ZULU)

Doc and the rest of the Butner crew, Good Luck!

John

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 11:20:19 (ZULU)

Wes,

I agree with Rick it was the first thought that came to mind when you discribed your new wind meter. I had one an its very inconsistant!!! I threw mine away.

Pat
Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 13:10:20 (ZULU)

Pete and MedicJim,

When Tubb looked at replacing the 6X, the 6x47 was one of the top competitors. It has all the makings of being a great round, except support in the United States. Neil Johnson Guns is the only place I know of that brass is available, and it's used. I THINK Redding has dies, but they are special order. Also, I don't know where you'd get a reamer, unless you had Kiff or Clymer make you one custom off of a dummy.

Now, the 6XC is damn near identical. It feeds from the mag on short actions, will drive a 105/107 to 3100fps and a 115 to 3050 out of a 29" barrel. The brass is $.32 a case and the dies and reamer are available through Tubb's web site.

I haven't used either, so I can't say if one will perform over the other BUT, 6X, 243win, 6BR Imp, 6x47Swiss, 6 Dasher, etc, all basiclly do the same thing. They use a 35* shoulder and about 11% greater powder capacity to drive the 107's to 3000 to 3100fps. The advantage of the 6xc and possibly the 6x47Swiss (haven't see the drawings) is that they maintain the 6BR's .3" long neck, allowing plenty of neck tension and a greater chance of good TIR. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Though, I will not fire form.

If you have a problem with putting money into David Tubbs pocket, than the 6XC is probably not for you. If, however, you don't mind getting everything at one place, than I feel the 6XC is a more practical round, with far more support than the 6x47Swiss.

FatBoy...

Chris
Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 14:25:14 (ZULU)

Chris,

I take it that the 6x47 your talking about is "Not" the "Old" 6x47 which was a .223 necked up to a 6mm an the 6x45 was a .222 necked up to a 6mm.

The BR crowd tried these years ago an some shot quite well but were to finicky on powder charges. Is Tubbs round a shortened 250 case or a shortened 243 case??

My sons 6-250 is a shooting machine an will push the 105s an 107s 3000fps out of a 26" barrel. He gets his best accuracy around 2950 to 2975 just like the 6.5x284s. The nice thing about this round is it feeds really nice an is easy to produce. You can use 22-250 bushing dies with a 6mm bushing so dies are reasonable. Its a damn good compermise an a cheap way to go. I am really impressed with the accuracy of the round also.

Pat
Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 15:25:01 (ZULU)

There is a guy in my club who made a wildcat on the old 30 Remington case. Shortened it and necked it down to 6 mm. He uses it in a AR-15 (spacegun) upper accross-the-course highpower matches. It does pretty good, as he won the Delaware State HP Championship last month with it.

A 6 mm in a .222-.223-.222 Magnum case was offered years ago as a way to get more power from an AR-15. This was before heavy bullets and fast twists. I can't remember who manufactured the barrels though.

There are other options out there for increasing the performance of the AR-15.

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 17:24:54 (ZULU)

When you get those Nigerian money laundry schemes, fake lotto notifications and weeping princes and windows. Answer them and request they send you honest money in cash and you will "consider" doing their bidding. They send out thousands of letters but only get a few back. If you flood their box they have to read em all to find the suckers replies and their box will overload and provide a path for the FBI or their internet provider to follow to bust the SOB'S.

Make up any wild story you can think of and try to outdo them with your own imagination. Takes up their time but be sure not to offer them anything that the Feds might consider illegal or binding on your part.

Brogers
Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 18:58:49 (ZULU)

The best guide we have found for He'n and She'n is "The Power Of A Praying Husband/Wife"

I don't know which causes the most grief, the diferences or the similarities in men and women.

On gun stuff I found a good cleaner for cosmoline & gunk. It's an auto parts cleaner called Greased Lightening. Water soluable, no stink,gets rid of cosmolene, paint, stock finish and all.

Just completed an Enfield refinish, used Homer Fornsby's low gloss tung oil on the stock. Brownells O.D. Green Teflon finish on the metal. It turned out nice.

Then I headspaced it and found it was .020 over : (

I have a new bolt-head on order, hopefully that will cure the problem.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 19:27:43 (ZULU)

re: Export of arms from the United States

You need a State Dept. Export permit for even single units.

http://www.pmdtc.org/

If your US FFL is doing this regularly they should get an export license. Most FFL's don't want to go to the effort or expense.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 19:43:54 (ZULU)

Hey,

Would that Greased Lightning work on cleaning bore? :-)

SteveS
Ft. Bragg AO, NC, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 20:08:47 (ZULU)

OKAY Gooch enters AR-15 country..

Quick...who's the leader in quality AR-15 kits? Assembled upper w/lower parts minus lower reciever?

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 23:01:30 (ZULU)

I have lurking and occasionally posting here for many years, with periods of being absent entirely. Lately, work has been so hectic that I haven't read SC in months.

Today, I finally get a chance to return to the watering hole, and fing the news of Bruce's passing.

I don't have the words to say what I want to say. Bruce's generosity in GFG and elsewhere was remarkable. His support for snipers and military personnel will be missed. Also leaving a gaping hole by their absence are his contributions to this site.

My sincerest condolences to Luann. If there is anything I can do, please let me know.

One indicator of an individual's worth is whether he left the world a better place than he entered. Bruce's legacy includes a tool to make the good guys shoot faster and more accurately, saving the lives of unknown numbers of civilians and of the shooters. If any of us even approach his achievements, we can rest in peace.

Karl

kdahm
Damn Hot, Tx, USA - Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 23:57:59 (ZULU)

Gooch,

I guess it depends what flavor AR you want. If it's a whizz-bang uber "tactical" rig, I'd go with a LMT M4 upper. Lots of contractors are using the LMT stuff with great results. I got a LMT M4 upper. It's chrome lined and the proper 1:7 twist and M4 "cuts" in the receiver. For lower parts, lots of guys go with Rock River, Bushmaster or Colt. As far as lower parts go, Colt is still considered the best there. I got a lower parts kit from J&T and they all had Colt markings. As much as this sounds lame, you might want to check out AR15.com and go to the industry section. Guys like G and R tactical, MSTN, Bravo Company, ADCO and CMMG not only have great products and service, but several are building uppers and shipping 'em directly overseas (MSTN, CMMG, ADCO..). I'm sure if you contacted several of 'em and told 'em who you were and what you wanted, they'd surpass your expectations.

Hope this helps!

Rich S
MD, - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 00:43:05 (ZULU)

Rod;

Many thanks for the link!

Enfields;

Gotta love 'em!

Louann;

Please stay as long as you wish. I never had the pleasure of meeting Bruce. It's something I regret.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 00:49:21 (ZULU)

Brogers...

From where I stand, your advice on responding to the email scams is major, major bad....

The is a market out there for "verified" email addresses...spammers will pay more for an email addy that has been confirmed as active... one response and you just made the spammer some extra money and bought yourself a whole lot of extra junk mail in the near future...

regards

Jim

medicjim
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 01:44:46 (ZULU)

RICK: Yeah, someone gave it up ...

He called today. Said he just threw his head back and laughed his ass off when he opened that door ...

Said all our asses are grass though. lol

Damn kids ...

brian k. sain
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 01:53:12 (ZULU)

Actually Jim; my adr is all over the web as is everyone's who is here on SC. Mine is by design since we are an internet provider, we bait these people to get a clue before our customers get nabbed with something. You can always change your adr if you have too.

IF nobody does anything this stuff is gonna get even worse. Cramming their box with e-mail is the only way to slow em down, piss em off or provide a headache for them at their internet provider. They have to sort and read through it all in order to find their suckers and usually there are only a few individuals involved and it will be as big a pain in the ass as it is to us. Besides the satisfaction of having done something is worth something to me. You'd be surprised at some of their reactions. I'd refrain from taking my advice if you feel it's flawed. However you mention that spam is a big pain and that's exactly what your reply is to them.

Brogers
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 01:59:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

Rick B. and Pat, Looks like I have the unit you described. Tried it out and it took a lot of wind to make it move. It's sporadic and results don't lend one to confidence in the unit. Perhaps, I'll give it to the wife for her garden "weather center"...;-)

Actually, I've never been a proponent of wind meters, etc., as they only give the data where you are located not downrange to the target.

I generally do a visual scan to the target. Look at the various conditions and mentally average them. Then dope it, dial it, dump it!

Works for me to 600 yards...

Tomorrow I visit mom and see how she's doing. She seems in good spirits. A chance to see my buddy/gunsmith and get requisite entry permits, for the areas I want to hunt, from the timber companies.

Didn't hunt this week as I'm still very sore from the minor surgery I had last week. Hope to heal soon and be back out in Blacktail and Elk Country. Have an area in DEEP where deer, elk, cougar, and black bear all reside.

A co-worker of mine got a beautiful 5-point Rooseveldt Elk during bow season. Incredible animal. The meat, by itself weighed a whopping 590 pounds

All for now...need to prep for the 'morrow.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 02:00:36 (ZULU)

Brogers...

There are other, nastier ways of conducting a Denial of Service attack on these folks....something on the order of eight or nine zeros...per hour.

No need to sacrifice the email you actually use. <g>

medicjim
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 02:09:52 (ZULU)

Yes, and As you can see it's working well. We're losing the battle.

YOu got a plan that works you send it to me. My IT department would be real interested in it.

Brogers
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 02:13:35 (ZULU)

If anyone is interested in donating to Adopt A Sniper and helping out the nice lady at Mildot Master here is a way to do it. Order one or more MMs From LouAnn and have them shipped to Brian at AAS, he says he can always use them. My order is going in to night.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 02:55:43 (ZULU)

Joe, great news about your Peanut!

LouAnn, our thoughts and prayers are still with those Bruce (at least for now) left behind.

Pete, thoughts for you also. Relationship country, hah. The therapy advice is good in my opinion at least. Prayer doesn't hurt!

Doc Holloway, glad to have helped in any way I could.

Really surprised to see a pro gun opinion piece from a California campus. Miracles -can- happen!

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, U.S.A., U.S.A. - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 03:43:35 (ZULU)

Well got my youngens through the first day on the range without mishap. Also working with a new instructor. He is very observant and works well with the students. He will make a good addition to our instructor staff.

Brian - Guess I will stay away form Conn for a while. My wife is going up to Fitchburg to visit her father this weekend. I get to stay behind and work with my nugs. Glad I am not around for Mike to work over. :)

Wes - Yeah we use the Kestler (sp?) 4000 to show students the wind speed at various ranges and smoke to show that from 300 to 900 meters down range the wind really is different. I give the wind and met conditions class Tuesday and then let them try and figure the wind by having them look at the mirage at various ranges. We then let them know what the wind actually is at that range. Works pretty well for that initial dose of wind reality. :)

Gooch - You going mouse gun? :)

On schemes, don't forget the Citibank scam, the aol your account is bad scam, the earthlink your account is bad scam, etc etc etc. I know of no organizatin that silicates your account info onver the phone or by email. Unfortunately a bunch of folk will send that info to the an unknown on a regular basis. :(

Well to go, hold hard guys, and stay safe.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 03:50:53 (ZULU)

Gents,

Kestrel wind meter. Nice unit, but will save my money (see previous post).

Mouseguns: Yeah, I have one. A Colt LWT Gov Carbine. Got it prior to the ban, so it has all the "evil" features. I like it "as is", but had to try building a modern version. Went with Bushmaster's flat top M4 upper. Added a S.W.A.N. sleeve and Aimpoint M series red dot. Also, a double mag housing, Tac sling, and butt mag pouch. Nice rig, but...heavy. Interesting to note that in some Tactical/CQB/MOUT training it did very well. The down side was it tracked slower on target and fatigue became a factor. Finished the last part with my suppressed Swedish "K". Now THERE is a way to levitate through the objective!

Most of the operators ditchedthe accessories and were using basic platforms by the end of training.

Now I find out the rig I built is not current, but believe I've broken the code. Doesn't matter what your preferences are, but you've got to have more M1913 rail points than a B-52 has hard points.

In short, learn to use the lighter firearm. You're better off.

Sorry guys I got "preachy". Shouldn't do that.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 06:17:32 (ZULU)

Folks, second request if anyone is interested.

Kicked around the idea of collecting PD/LE/mil patches from folks using Bruce's mighty fine invention. Once patches are collected, putting them together for Louann as a final thanks. Already had one good soul offer to send a patch so I'm up to two.

May see if a good woodworking friend can make something for me. He did a patch/badge shadow board for Washington state for 9/11 and the PAPD/NYPPD museum. Fine work, well received back east.

Now, on to ARs.

About two years ago, Ken Elmore of SAW spoke highly of both his beloved Colt and of RRA for general ARs.

Brings me to another question. Anyone here have some numbers I can use of accurized ARs (such as the BM varmnter, Colt Accurized, Oly PCR-1, etc.) in duty work or part of a LE sniper team platform? Doing some research for command.

Ahhh, feel much better now. Spent ten minutes thinking of the lousy report writing software they just foisted upon us at the departmet. Nothing like a municipality buying a software platform that doesn't work and the company swears isn't beta (but acts like it). Well, back to it.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 06:25:51 (ZULU)

Jody : REME is : The Corps of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. the REME Motto is: Arte et Marte or By Skill and Fighting. I was a REME NCO. for a short histroy look here:

http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/remeass/history.htm

Chris and any one else, 6x47 brass is readily avauilable here and i wouldn't mind snding a quantity to the states if anyone requires it.

Well we gave Adolf a good send of yesterday, he had a nice funeral, a couple or former comrades of his from the 5 SS Panzergrenadier Division Viking and 11 SS Panzergrenadier Division Nordland where there to pay thier respects, the flag of the 11 SS Panzergrenadier Division Nordland(the only battle flag from the SS to be allowed to be taken over into the Bundeswehr) was flying at half mast. A Bugler sounded the German version of the Last Post (taps?) at the grave side, all former soldiers present saluted the grave.

To talk to some of these old soldiers and to have known Adolf and to have so much fun with him over the last 10 years has been an honour, these man aren't the baby killing slaughtering brutes that are often depicted in visions of SS troopers, certainly the SS contained a good deal of maniacs, but it also contained many good men.

Adolf was an SS Infantry soldier, part of an Anti tank platoon. An honourable man, a father and grandfather and a good friend. he will be missed.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
Damn the Ban, we will Hunt - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 07:56:31 (ZULU)

I haven't ever seen a situation anywhere that lighter isn't better if you can get it. Wes; you are zactly on point. By the time they get through with all these "accessories" you may as well shoulder a B.A.R. IF you have a light scope and a light that is one of the modern types you probably don't need all those rails unless you plan to saw down a couple of trees with those rough edges. For what it's worth coming from me, The Rock River systems seem to be the best I've used. Olympic, Colt, Bushmaster, and others will usually work but they don't deliver the accuracy over many rounds that the Wilson barrels on the Rock Rivers seem to do with ease. If I were intersted in putting out a lot of rounds under say 4moa the Bushmaster will probably work as good as any. But the Rock Rivers are capable of 10 rnds under 1.5moa in aimed rapid fire. I would only use that barrel in Semi Auto. but it Depends on how many you want to put down range in what time. The chrome barrels of Bushmaster will put 3 or 4 rounds under 1MOA and then go hell in a handbasket. The Rock Rivers are cheaper than most kits and if it were me I'd buy the whole thing put together already by RR. You can change uppers and lowers without a lot of BS except for the Colt interchangability problems. The Rock River triggers are a little stiffer than the Bushies but changing the hammer usually fixes it. My RR is the only one I've ever really liked of the mousers. That's not advise, that's just testimony. I do like those raised rails on the RR';s but don't have one on mine.

Brogers
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 13:51:16 (ZULU)

Pete' it's been my observation that all countries have good men in their armies regardless of their leadership. I could salute a good soldier from any land who believed in his cause enough to take up arms and die. Their flag is another matter.

Brogers
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 13:56:32 (ZULU)

I don't get around here much anymore - just the occasional lurk to catch up a tiny bit. Needless to say, I was surprised and saddened by Bruce's passing. I'd just like to add my condolences to LouAnn and the rest of the Robinson family.

I never met Bruce personally, but he seemed an honorable man, and he will be missed.

Semper Fi, Bruce!

Andre
Pompano Beach, FL, - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 14:14:48 (ZULU)

Wes - Main reason for the Kestrel is for all the other things it does and then for long range shooting in "extreme" environments. We use them for teaching winds to the nugs during the course and to give them base line data for their books on the range. Actualy for the regualar shooter it is a bit pricey and Uncle Sugar bought us ours. I wouldn't have put the money down on one. :)

You must have had some real serious "accessories" hanging off that thing to use a Swedish K with Suppressor to "lighten" the load. Carried one of those, heavy. Lighter is better in most of those circumstances. Just becasue there is an attachment point does not mean you need to use it. :)

Morris - Email me your address and I will send you a couple of SF patches that have been to war and our patch that we use here at the school. The SF patches may look a bit grungy but there is a reason for it. I just need to talk some guys out of them, they don't wear them on their uniform in combat but carry them so they have a few patches for their "combat patch" that was in combat.

Brogers - Guess I should have read your post before I made my comments to Wes. This agreeing is starting to scare me!!!! Goes with the honorable soldier statement as well. I never felt a need to hate the soldier, did hate what the soldier stood for. Now so called "peace activists" that state opposition to war and then screw the soldier I can hate forever.

Speaking of said "peace activitst", how many saw that several sporting companies have indorsed Kerry? Example Leatherman, and Columbia Wear. Mr. Leatherman in an email reply all but accused the sender of the email of a "conspiracy", in connection with Bush, to put economic pressure on him. Even though the emails have stated that they respect his right to back Kerry but they will spend their money elsewhere. Hmmmmm, guess my leatherman will go somewhere else and I will not buy that new one that he just came out with. Cripes I hate it when these idiots do not understand whta is in front of their faces. He claims that he has had to lay off workers due to Bush, uh could it be becasue after he started his company every little Leatherman copier has come up with a cheaper model and that Clinton handed over an economy already going inot the crapper?

Sorry this Sniper country and not Rant mode Polie science country.

Hold Hard guys and stay safe.

Rick

On the Rock River guns, they give a good military discount.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 16:13:27 (ZULU)

I've got a fire service patch that got dirty in NYC a few years back....I guess it could be washed to remove the asbestos and other stuff. I'm not sure if that qualifies for a "Mil-dot master user group".

If it's for Bruce and Louann, and is appropriate, just let me know where to ship it.

medicjim
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 16:33:58 (ZULU)

Morris,

I have an extra Alaska State Troopers patch I could send your way. Send me a PM with your address.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 16:38:04 (ZULU)

Pete L;

Thanks for the REME clarification.

Rick B;

I won't be getting a Leatherman now. Thanks for the tip.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 16:58:12 (ZULU)

Leatherman just lost all sales to me and I will make sure every student I get knows this. Dont you idiots at Leatherman know that in addition to the few Granola eating freaks who have your tools in a drawer some where, a whole bunch of working military and police used (Past Tense) your tools daily? Knowing that most big companies have agencies that search the internet for the use of thier name and wanting them to know how we feel. Here you go Leatherman. Leatherman. Leatherman. Leatherman. You lost a few customers here. Make tools and keep yoru politics to yourself.

So how is Gerber for Politics?

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 17:21:41 (ZULU)

Mike / Rick B.

I've seen a number of cases where this sort of thing turned out to be a false representation of a corporation's position. Has "the target" been verified as hostile? Are we sure this intel is good?

medicjim
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 17:32:16 (ZULU)

Rick; I think it's a good sign when you find another post next to yours that says the same thing. I wish I could bring my body in compliance with my beliefs on light.

I made some comments about our friend Kerry and drew fire last week so I'll leave it alone but if he's elected it will confirm my suspicions in the drift toward total stupidity among Americans.

Brogers
Friday, October 8, 2004, at 18:01:00 (ZULU)

For Bruce:

THOU, O GOD! knowest our down-setting and our up-rising. and understandeth our thoughts afar off. Shield and defend us from the evil intentions of our enemies, and support us under the trials and afflictions we are destined to endure, while traveling through this vale of tears. Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He cometh forth as a flower, and is cut down; he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee; thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass: turn from him that he may rest, till he shall accomplish his day. For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. But man dieth and wasteth away; yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up, so man lieth down, and riseth not up till the heavens shall be no more. Yet, O Lord! have compassion on the children of thy creation; administer them comfort in time of trouble, and save them with an everlasting salvation.

LouAnn remember when the strength and wisdom of man fails there is an inexhaustible source above yielded to us through prayer.

God Bless

Jim McNabb
Arlington, Lone Star, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 18:36:27 (ZULU)

Long week...

Bruce, good luck on the next journey mate..You will be sorely missed, but you will be remembered..Remembered for the man you were, a self starter with a simple idea that changed or in fact revolutionised the potential of today's SWS..A man who did not take his family for granted, his immediate family whom he cherished, his adopted DR family whom he would lie down in traffic, and his brethren in arms at home and abroad whom he gave so much time and effort because he truly appreciated and acknowledged what they mean to our survival in this world..Bruce, if there were such a thing in the real world, you'd be a superhero..But I guess we'll just have to say you were a real good man who was well worth his salt...And I'm just thankful whoever is in charge of the universe gave me the opportunity to know someone of your character..Hat's off, you done well this turn, bud..

Just think, he's probably up there in Valhalla with Gunny Hathcock gearing the MM from zero yds to oblivion..And brewin up some mean chile dishes in the meantime...

LouAnn,

My sincerest condolences, dear...You were the sparkle in Bruce's eyes, and that will never fade, he knew there was an angel watchin over him the minute he met you, and you proved him right, especially so in his last days..If there is ANYTHING we can do to help you in these hard times, let us know, we are here for ya....May Bruce get some rest now..

Pete,

What does reme REALLY mean? What are the sarcastic acronyms of the trade? ha...Thought it was rapid eye movement engineering, dreamworks, or randy entertaining machinists and engineers, or summot...Hey, you get your head straight mang, get a plan goin..I know it's hard, but we never know what's going to land on our plate at any given time, do we...Too many times I have been in a situation when it sounded good at the time, where I landed on my face...All we can do is manage with what we got...Keep your head up, when you get bucked off, you dust off the wranglers and find a way to get back on, but you'll never be able to do that with your head hung low, you'll end up getting kicked..Buck up bro, we only get one chance on this plane...figure out what you want and go get it..How's your machining situation doin by the way?

long week indeed..I thought it was a good idea to bike to work this week...The weather has thought otherwise..Not too many miles, about 130 in 5 days, but headwinds every time, rain, sleet, oh and those bloody scottish hills..Which by the way to and from work is uphill both ways..I long for hundreds of miles of flat prairie plains..ha..

JR
Langholm, Scotland, just east of MY island - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 20:51:59 (ZULU)

Ref Leatherman - Go here http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040914/145916_1.html for the an article and a list of hte "businessmen.

Here is one of the email answers, with the exception of the "conspirasy" part the rest is the same as the first ones sent out to guys that very politely inquired if the claim was true.

You can read more at this site: http://forums.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11281&whichpage=1

Hello Bart,

That's your right. I'm curious though. I have received several e-mails

very similar to yours. I assume you and the others have been requested

by someone else to write them. Is this correct? If so, who is it? If

the candidates, or the political parties, or someone affiliated with

them are creating campaigns to retaliate economically against people who

express a political opinion, I'd like to provide that information to the

press and see what kind of backlash occurs.

Meanwhile we should be able to have an honest difference of opinion on

which candidate will best support the interests of all Americans.

In a nutshell, my position is that personally, I am quite sure I am

benefiting much more from the Bush tax cuts and other economic policies

than most people, but I'm very concerned about where the policies of the

current administration are taking this country. I'm very concerned that

many, many people are not better off now than they were three and one

half years ago, and I'm even more concerned about the future for our

children and grandchildren. I don't agree with everything Kerry and

Edwards propose either, but I think we need a change.

I'm not trying to alienate customers. I have over 300 people working

here in my Portland factory. Four years ago I had more. I'd like to at

least keep my current employees employed and preferably add more.

Maybe I wasn't very smart to give my job title and business affiliation

when I gave my endorsement, rather than to do it personally, but I did.

If it costs me business, so be it. I'm still going to do my absolute

best to make great tools and hope that all Americans, of any political

affiliation, will find them of value.

Sincerely yours,

Tim Leatherman

P.S. There is an inaccuracy in your letter. I have not financially

supported the Kerry/Edwards campaign.

He states that he did not financially back Kerry but hat is not hte impression I get form the Yahoo article.

You guys make your own mind up on this. But this is the type of idiot that does not understand that Kerry and his ilk will close the parks and forests and moutnains to all but the elite and Mr. Leatherman may not be one of those elite.

Before you ask, where did my old leatherman go? In the trash. I do not need to be part of an indidvidual who backs a bull s**t individual who got purple hearts fradualntly, yes I said fradualently to get out of combat and leave his "band of brothers" behind. Ever wonder why only one officer out of all of the officers in Kerry's unit has endorsed the jerk wad? Ever wonder why a court order has not been filed to stop the so called slandering swift boaters, hmmm, maybe they are not telling lies, since that woudl be a main litmus test for slander. There is another site better then swiftboats if you want to see how Kerry's own words show his lies, ie his admission to throwing a concussion grenade into a rice bin and filling his butt with shrapnel and rice. Opps that is the same wound he claims, in another stirring document, that he got pulling a fired SF officer out of the drink. Opps since that wound can't be claimed then his arm suddenly went form a contusion (bruise) to a bleeding wound.

Opps, sorry, this not polie science country dot com. Sorry again.

Brogers - Know what you mean, I run 30 minutes at a whack and my 57 year old but is still "not light" and lighter is much better in this since. I do, however, have a platform for my elbow when shooting standing offhand. :)

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 22:06:09 (ZULU)

JR you is right and i already bucked up buddy, ive never been one to be on a downer for long, had the worst one ever the other night, lack of sleep factored in there.. anyways, things is looking slightly on the up side, long road but i bought a ticket thats good for as far as the last stop i hope.

I even drummed up some custom whilst at the funeral, our mates from Magdeburg came over for it,(unfortunately the Staßi Major couldn't make it) my mate karl had a gun shop there and it looks like i'll be getting the customers as far as tunig etc goes, seems they can't find a smith over there that knows anything about accurate weapons, fancy wood and deep blue yep but tight groups and reliability no.. when the Ossies ( eastern folk) come over they always get greated by me sniffing the air and saying " i knew i could smell a commie some where around here" to which the standard reply is " when are you gonna come and fix the church roof that you limeys bombed ?" we hammered Magdeburg to hell and the big cathedaral type church building never got repaired since.

you got a take of 223 varmint 700 barrel layin about you don't need?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 23:09:28 (ZULU)

The best use I have found for a Kestrel is to use it when not shooting to learn what a wind of N miles per hour feels like and how vegetation and mirage react to it.

As for "not light", Rick, I run three miles or so every other day - I have joint problems if I try to do that every day - and walk more than that in between days, but my 58-year-old butt is still not light. I have reached the Age of Metal: Silver in my hair, gold in my teeth, lead in my ass.

I just keep on keeping on, though.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, October 8, 2004, at 23:39:27 (ZULU)

Ref: Kestrel #4000

Prior to deploying to a school last month I went through all of my battery operated gadgets and put in fresh batteries. That’s when I learned that my K#4000 had given up the ghost. I deployed with my K#2000 and called for a return authorization number from the folks at Nielsen-Kellerman.

After a few weeks I talked to a nice lady in the warranty/repair department. She told me that the unit was not repairable and that the warranty period had lapsed. She then offered to sell me an extended warranty for $35 and then send me a new K#4000. I immediately gave her my VISA number and received my new K#4000 today.

I’m very pleased with the customer service offered by the folks at Nielsen-Kellerman.

Like Lindy I try to use my K#4000 as a training aid to better learn what wind looks like. FWIW…I checked with the AWOS at the airport today and my K#4000 gave me the exact same density altitude number. That made me a happy camper.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 00:47:04 (ZULU)

Did you guys order your Mildot Masters yet? I know of one company that makes multi tools that are good guys and that is Buck Knives.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 01:05:32 (ZULU)

Gooch I just finished putting together an M4. I had the Bushmaster lower so I just added a Chip McCormick two stage trigger group, ambi selector, and a Voltar Clubfoot carbine stock. For the upper I went with the LMT M4 14.5" with a phanthom C2 flash hider pinned in place, the A2 won't get you to 16" non NFA length. I also went with a Yankee Hill quad rail free float forearm and a YHM low 11.5" riser to keep the upper and forend nice and tight. The front sight is the standard post and I have a rear flip up iron and an Eotech 551 which I'm starting to like. I went with Tango Down pistol and vertical grip. I have an insight M3 for a handgun so I will probably use that with a longer pressure switch for the Tac light. For a sling I had a tac tailor patrol sling from a different weapon so I am still working on a few sling options and mounts. The stock and forend have a few sling options but I might try a castle nut adapter. I'm still working up loads for it but it shoots 69s at about 1 moa at 100 yds with 748 powder. I haven't tried the 70 - 80s yet.

Have you looked at the Troy industries SOPMOD M14 conversion? They claim daul role, CQB and sniper, but I doubt if a 16" barrel will be any good past 500. Any way it's a little pricey when there are other options.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 02:00:19 (ZULU)

Tell me it ain't so, guys! I have to throw away Bruce's Leatherman??? Do you realize that he wore it every day, even to church? He never left home without it! He'd change his underwear, but the Leatherman was always on his belt, except on a plane or at the Indian casino. This is as bad as when he wouldn't buy a certain brand of vodka because it was French!

I'm doing OK, by the way. Missing Mr. Mildot, but that's to be expected. Ken has tried to keep me in line, but he's finding out that Bruce had his hands full! hehe

Joe Mahan: I need your contact's address in the sandbox. GFG has a final shipment to complete, and I can't find it. Please contact me offline. Thank you!

Thanks guys......you're the best!

LouAnn Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 04:25:43 (ZULU)

Gents,

Rick B., Believe me that tricked out M4 was heavy. That and I didn't have the requisite laser, tac-light, or M203 mounted...;-)

The suppressed Swedish "K" is not heavy...it's solid! Something nice about guns that run 100%, are hell for stout, and accurate as all get out. Liked mine much better than the MP5. Although the Hack and Kaff is lighter. Choice of reliable 36 round mags, 50 rounds Suomi mags, or the 70+ round Suomi drum made life interesting. An excellent weapon. Remember these were designed about the same time as the Brit Sterling SMG and the Isreali Uzi...all solid and reliable. Got rid of most of my full auto, but kept a toy, suppessor, spares, mags, etc.

You guys in your late fifties are making me feel bad. Time to get my ass out on the road and drop poundage. After all I'm only a young 53!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 04:34:56 (ZULU)

"Silver in my hair, gold in my teeth, lead in my ass." LMA ... O!

Ha! Me too ! ... I always did like you Lindy.

Thanks for the Kestrel report Kev. Just got a couple myself from ambient weather.com. $189 bucks.

I never shoot very far so you might be able to get them from me cheap later ... ha.

Hi CB.

brian k. sain
Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 04:58:07 (ZULU)

LouAnn; I just made new rule. Sniper widows can keep anything that belonged to their departed one. Unless it's a John Kerry purple heart they find in a Cracker Jack box.

Rick; I couldn't run 30 minutes if the devil himself was after me. Well... if I did, he and I would be resting in a warm spot swapping lies shortly after.

Tomorrow is a shooting day. May the wind be down to 40 and blowing north or south. The 7MM SAUM gets it's chance to eat the 300 for lunch. We will see.

Q. Who won the debate?

A. We who didn't watch it.

Brogers
Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 05:40:49 (ZULU)

AR country- I put every bell and whistle I could find on my M4 when I got it. I just had to have everything just in case anything happened. Well two years later I still carry the M4 only sans all the tricked out stuff. I now only have a short rail attachemnt on a hand guard and a sure fire light. I quickly discovered every ounce counted more than I rekoned, especially standing on a perimeter for God knows how long. Simple is better. As far as brand goes..."if it's not a Colt it's a copy" and in several years of teaching rifles to cops I've seen some real doozie fakes come along. The statement is a good one It's Colt is all I recommend if available. In our area when we see an AR go down on the line we say it's a NAC...not a colt...almost always we're right.

OK Colt Promo over =)

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kommiefornia, US of A - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 05:48:29 (ZULU)

"i knew i could smell a commie some where around here" LOL

I still remember looking at those folks through binos across the fence in the Hof sector on one border tour. Most of the time it was the Czechs in the Weiden sector (many tours). Sometimes it still is hard to believe that the Cold War is over.

Ahh, the good? old days.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 16:58:59 (ZULU)

On ARs and slings. Gooch get ahold of me I will send you a sling for that M4. I got tired of all the stuff out there and came up with a couple of carry straps that so far the guys using really like. One is a simple single strap that hangs from vest,lBE or ruck and can be shot ambi without adjustment. The other is an over the shoulder version. I have a few in Iraq and nothing negative so far. Hands free hang of weapon for transition. No bra to wear. No mass of straps to strangle you. They come with adapter plate for M4 stock.

On the rifles always had good luck with Colt. I have no idea how many rounds through my M4, but I am on third set of gas rings and they seem to be wearing very well.

LouAnn, I can remember Bruce falling out of that huge truck and first thing I saw was Leatherman on his hip. LOL

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 17:47:15 (ZULU)

LouAnn,

I come home from an extended period of "FT McCoy" while training a passel of Finance Detachments (whew...they will not accept that they are their own security, at least until arrival at the FOB)

---so what awaits me at the haus?

A Mildot Master!

You really did not have to do this...but it touched us. My wife opened the package and read your note. She had tears on her cheek as she read it to me (Long driveway, I was at the wheel). She is so proud of what the GFG did for our troops, and of the man who concieved it. Though she will not post here (lurker only)--she took the news pretty hard.

email on the way!

Pete, for the first time in history, we cannot find honor or integrity on the other side of the sights.

Hmmm...my Colt M4 was decent. Got the job done, no issues. But I can build better with this and that, methinks.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 20:00:51 (ZULU)

Louann - DO NOT throw away a momento with those memories. My Leatherman does not have those memories. Your Leatherman is a piece of Bruce and that defenantely over rides Mr. Leatherman's politics and beliefs.

Wes - The only thing that you needed was the white light. The Swedish K I carried weighted a ton! Then again I was carrieng about 100 pounds of water, ammo, clays, radio and crypto. This may have infulenced my decision. :)

Brian - Shame on you for lying! I saw your skinny butt in Mass! There is no lead in your ass, hell you don't even have grey! :)

Joe - I have to agree with you about honor on the other side of the sights in this war against terror.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 20:39:31 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, your right, and that cos we ain't fighting soldiers we are fighting barbarian cowards. The Ole SS Panzergrenadier had a few ideas how to deal with the situation, we discussed Iraq and few other things on many occasions. i guess SS tactics aint PC, i can't see us killing every man within 50 miles of an attacked convoy, but they sure as hell worked for the SS fighting the ruskie partisans and Legion in indo china.

Joe S,. you still talkin to me buddy?

JR try to call you tomorow (sunday.)

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 9, 2004, at 22:59:06 (ZULU)

Been a tough week HOGS. Cop friend, SWAT guy ... ate his pistol this week. He was 32. Has a 1 yr. and a 4 yr. old.

That makes two ... shit's getting old fellas.

brian k. sain
Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 00:16:23 (ZULU)

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, Brian. That sucks. It ought to be the bad guys doing that, not the good guys.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 00:53:47 (ZULU)

Pete L- I got an e-mail out to you last night let me know if it didn't make it.

Mike Miller-Could I get some info on those M4 slings. My set up always gets hung up on everything...badge, nametags etc.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kommiefornia, US fo A - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 02:22:38 (ZULU)

Today I had the pleasure to attend a memorial dedication for one of America's great heros, Col James "Nick" Rowe. A West Point graduate, SF officer, VN POW escapee after 5 years, and someone who gave his life while fighting terrorism in the Phillipines. It made me feel good to be associated with all those that were involved, worked, and were part of the Col's heritage. De Oppresso Liber..

I also had the opportunity to meet and speak with some of the active SF guys who run the SF SERE school that is dedicated to Col Rowe and some of those that are active and have worked with the Col. in the past. Damb!! I'm old when I see two time recipeient CIB First Sgts who can't be more than 35. God Bless..and thank you..

Anyway. It was a pleasure to be there and I thank all those that are out there in Harms Way protecting people like me. De Oppresso Liber!

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 03:49:38 (ZULU)

I am just now returning to “normal” after a rather rough week. I just wanted to say thank you to all of you for your kindness during Bruce’s illness and his passing. Your prayers and words of encouragement were greatly appreciated. Bruce and I often traveled different roads, and did not get to see each other as much as we should have. I learned a lot about my brother from all of you, and will never forget what you have taught me. Thanks to all of you, and God bless you.

Bruce's "Little Brother"

Joel Robinson
Matthews, NC, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 04:04:03 (ZULU)

Nick's book, _Five Years to Freedom_ is as inspiring a story as one can read, and the SERE School he founded continues to save countless lives. He was a quiet giant, who gave his life for freedom. The nation is blessed to have had such men.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 04:50:48 (ZULU)

Gents,

Brian, sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. It's bad enough to lose them in action, but by their own hand is such a waste. They will never know the pain they inflict on those who remain behind...

Been there once, myself. Luckily, a little voice said to seek help. I did and 18 years later I'm healthy and happy. It's at least a two beer story...;-)

Was first on the scene when one of our Gunny's chose suicide. NOT a pretty picture. Divorce in process, etc. Humanity lost a good man, the Marines a good Gunny, and I lost a good friend.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 07:41:10 (ZULU)

Colt seems to be the best for complete guns, LMT makes some good stuff too, but harder to get ahold of. Wes at MSTN is a great guy to do business with, same with Billy at M&A Parts.

Here we go really light, I'm using an ACOG on an M16A4 and that's it. AN/PVS-17B at night. Wearing 25lbs of armour really cuts into your working load. A pair of frags, 7 mags, a red smoke, some popups, a bunch of water and the radio and that's it. Wouldn't go without the armour though, mortars and rockets are the enemy weapon of choice. They can't shoot for shit, but they're on with the indirect fire. We allowed them too much practice. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 07:57:17 (ZULU)

Brian:

Very sad to read of you news. Suicides in our business is on the rise.

Best book I am reading about the work is "I Love A Cop," from Calibre Press.

My thought to your local cop family.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 12:35:11 (ZULU)

Brian; That scene is one I don't want to do again. Particularly with a LE officer. Kind of diminishes the hope for us all in some way. Trying to know what LE officers see and have to face everyday reveals the nature of "it" all too well. My Grandfather was 50 years LE and back in better times but there was a sadness about him I could not understand at the age I knew him. IT's becoming more clear the more I see of things I understand his not wanting me to follow in his footsteps. Add a little personal difficulty to the hell you see and have to go though and good men go under. I lost a lifelong friend last year to the same syndrome. It seems so wasteful and hopeless when to best give up on the human race. Almost all the peaceofficers I knew started with a hope to make a difference. Sadly they come to a point they dont realize how much difference that they really have made and become the victim of their own perceived failures and the horrors of society they have witneessed. Bad things are accumulative. Sad indeed.

Range testing the 300 and 7mm SAum with a .308 test standard.

The SAUM 7mm ate the 300 SAUM for breakfast and had the .308 Tikka for a side dish. Very consistant less than 1 MOA thousand yard groups were the norm. Most went around .5. Although we've had a few like that with the 300 SAUM it was obvious it was the norm with the 7MM. 162 Grain Bullets with H 4831SC was the load. Don't know at this point if I'll continue working with the .300 but we chrono graphed all the loads and they were very low spread between shots. Match Kings were the bullets of choice but the 300 has been known to do better with the A-max. or 190's. The 7mm is the clear winner for now.

Brogers
Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 14:31:17 (ZULU)

Has anyone come up with a 2800fps 168/175MK/308 load yet that is accurate enough to shoot 'F' class and high power to 1000yards?

Papa9er67
Idaho Falls, ID, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 14:49:41 (ZULU)

BKS,

Real sorry to hear about your friend. It's been 6 years since my buddy, fellow LEO and sniper, ate his, I still think about him and wonder if there was anything I should have done. Sometimes I'd like to kick him right square in the balls too.

Thoughts and prayers to family and friends.

Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 16:17:23 (ZULU)

Have had Colts in the past with no issues. My current AR is an Armalite (was a Pre-ban) lower with a Fulton Armory Phantom upper on it. It shoots 100% whit he magazines I have. It groups 1" at 100 with BS reloads using SS109s and AA2230C. I have a straight 4 X Leupold on it in an Armalite one piece mount.

My match rifle is a Bushmaster DCM lower with a Bushmaster DCM Upper using a Krieger 1-7 3/4" twist barrel.

Colts are not very popular in Highpower circles because of the different lower configurations that are around. Big hold, little hole, trigger block, no trigger block etc. It hard to get components for these rifles in the right configuration.

Pete – After listening to a talk given Friday, at my gun club, by a US Army veteran from WW II, it is hard for me to have any good feeling for someone who fought for hitler. This gentleman was captured at the Battle of the Bulge and gave an eye-opening talk on his ordeal and how he suffered at the hands of the nazis . Anybody who fought for them was the enemy, remains the same today.

Unforgiving

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 18:13:39 (ZULU)

Jerry, have you ever served? ever been under fire? I have and i can forgive. some can some can't

My uncle George fought the japs in Burma, he complained often that the damn arisaka rilfe with fixed bajonet was longer than the damned enfield jungle carbine, he had a scar front and rear to prove it, he hated the japs cos he spent time as a POW.he mellowed in his older years though. His son faught the viet cong and NVA in vietnam whilst serving with the aussie SAS. My dad faught the north koreans and the egiptians, he hates chineese food but is forgiving. my cousin took a bullet i the head in Northern Ireland and lived, he is fucked but he is forgiving. i've a fucked knee from part of an AK round, also NI. as i said,i'm forgiving.

My dad had a bus company until recently, every year he transported a group of ex WW2 fighter pilots, German and English, they visited each other as a group every year, they where forgiving. It is the unforgiving mentality that had a 60 year old woman in Northern Ireland spit in my face, scratch my face to hell with her finger nails and complain what British troops did in 1700 and summot. it is the unforgiving that has irish scholl kids 6 years old knock nails through bits of wood and hit soldiers with them (what do you do, thats a 6 yearold kid?) has a gunman in the middle of a group of kids at play time and when the whistel goes, the kids part and machine guns your mates, then the kids gather round again,, can you shoot back?.

don't forget that the average german infantry soldier only knew what he was told, he didn't have access to the media of today. My freind did not agree with the politics and policies of hitler, but he answered his countries call, i can respect that. especialy with the fact that if he hadn't he would have been shot by his own side.

My ex fatherin law was on the German side i the battle of the bulge, my American brotherilaws father was on the American side in the same battle, in the same place, they forgave.

Todays enemies are tomorows friends and vis versa in todays world of fucked up politics.

I cannot respect or forgive mindless terrorists who cut folks heads of or fly suicide missions into tower blocks, but i can respect and forgive a guy who was fighting for his country or cause as a uniformed soldier.

maybe you should read the bible.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 21:45:47 (ZULU)

Peter - You can forgive a soldier for doing his duty whether his country's politics suck or not. It is not the soldier, it is the politics. This is where the libs will never understand the world. They have and always will blame the soldier regardless of the politics. Look at Kerry, he is a rapid military hater and always will be regardless of what he says.

Now a terrorist is a cowardly scum sucker that will attack only targets that can't fight back. Civilians, kids, old people, places with no military value only that of being able to kill for killings' sake. In the real world they are called psychopaths and juvenile deliquents, but our, and especially the European, press thinks of them as darling freedom fighters (militia). Well Freedom fighters fight the military and act as an army. They do not brain wash some kid, male or female, into thinking they are getting something special by killing a bunch of other kids with a bomb strapped to them. When civies are killed or injured in an attack by freedom fighters then it was as an adjunct to the actual military target, just as when we have collateral damage. All of this we can forgive.

Jerry - You ever consider the fire bombing of Dresden in which thousands fo civians, women and children as well as old people died? How about the fire bombing and regualr bomings of all the cities of Germany and Japan. Those killed thousands and yet those civilians have forgiven the bomber pilots as well. No, do not think one sided on this, it is what causes fueds that never end. I kill to avenge the death of him and his familly kills to avenge the death of another, never ending.

I too have been in combat and understand the need to forgive. I have shrapnel in my body from El Salvador and yet I do not hate the "G"s that put it there, I do hate the Clintons that sent them 5000 dollars to help them put it there. I have shrapnel scars and bullet scars from the NVA, do not hate them either, I do hate a certain man by the name of Kerry whom gave aid and comfort to the enemy and gave them reason to hang on and fight longer knowing that we would fold due to his rhetoric and the bealting of the press. (This, by the way, is the only similarity of this war and Viet Nam) Hell, I trained a Khmer Rouge at my school who is now a US soldier and US citizen. I had a bucket load of them shooting at me at one time in my life. No, hating the soldier and ignoring the circumstances and politics of the time is ignoring to much and condeming many good potential friends to never being able to know and understand you and you never finding the man or woman who may one day save your life.

OK, sorry guys off the soap box.

Hold hard guys and stay safe.!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, October 10, 2004, at 23:29:26 (ZULU)

Just got back from the F-Class Nationals at Butner. Folks, I had a friggin blast. Didn't shoot worth a crap but meeting all these new folks was a hoot. New reloads didn't blow up and I think with adding a little more powder they'll be good to go. This was one of the best organized events that I have ever attended. The Butner wind still cursed me, but I'm getting used to it. I let our Team down with a miss today that I have no idea what happened. Shooting a string of 10's and X's and then having a miss with mess with your mind.

I especially want to mention the Brits. Pete, if all the shooters are as nice and friendly as the "blokes" that made their way across the pond to shoot with us, you are one lucky soul. Jacko and Les kept us in stithes the whole time. And folks, these guys can shoot. We talked in depth about their gun and self-defense laws, I actually couldn't believe what I was hearing. Ifin somebody breaks into your house over there without a weapon and you whoop him with a baseball bat, you will probably get sued and thrown in jail with the perp. The folks don't own pistols, have an ammunition allotments and on and on.

The South African F-class team was there as well as reps from Canado, Ireland, Scotland and another couple of countries I think. I didn't get to meet many of the South African dudes but they are good shots also. There were just too many folks there to meet. I did put some Hawgs' faces with their names and that was great. Masters Cockerham and JR Moore put it on me as usual. One of these days.......... We had a big contingent of guys from the Charlotte, NC PD. They shot well also.

On the Kestral 4000, we used mine weekend and it will blow your mind as to how fast the wind can pick up or drop out on you. 2mph to 8mph in about 5 seconds.

Well I'm worn out and have forgotten everything else about the match that I wanted post so.......... Bolt Out!

Bolt
worn out in........, NC, - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 01:47:20 (ZULU)

Rich B: After reading your posts and observations I'm confused. I agree with your convections but I seem to remember things like force multipliers, ecnomy of force, yada yada yada that could come into play with the definition of terrorists. I tend to leave those observations up to the politicians and definitly not the media. Today I only can pray for the well being of our troups and be thankful for the training of those like yourself that care.

Today my only obsevastions seem to lean toward either your a muslem or not and I won't start to get into religions or why they start wars. It's a fact and i'm not a politician.

TonyY
woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 04:31:27 (ZULU)

I don't post here that often. I was sorry to read about the LEO that passed. I myself am an officer. God Bless to all who knew him. I know this may sound insensitive, but I wondering if anyone has any thoughts or knows anything on Wipe Out brushless bore cleaner?

Brandon
Sunny , CO , - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 05:18:50 (ZULU)

I was in Vietnam during the '68 Tet Offensive. Fortunately, I wasn't in the bush (although I sometimes wish I had been). That doesn't mean I didn't duck my share of 122mm rockets and mortars. I knew that if the NVA regulars fighting in Pleiku City ever made it to the base where I was standing post on a bunker, alone most of the time, I wouldn't see the sun come up. I've never been wounded, but I stood my post even when I was scared shitless.

That being said, I never hated the guys on the other side. I was sure that they had pictures of their girlfriends or wives and children in their wallets just like I did. Fuckin' a skippy I would have capped one of them if I had the opportunity, as would they, but I never hated them. I would do it today to save myself or some innocent person from a scum-bag. But I wouldn't do it because I hated the bad guy, I would be doing it because I want that innocent person to have the right to enjoy life like I do.

They say that a leopard can never change it's spots, but I have to differ. I've seen some pretty scummy people turn around into someone special. I may hate someone's behavior, but not the person. They just might turn out to be your best friend.

I spent two years in Germany as a military dependent. I didn't meet anyone there I wouldn't count as a friend. Maybe I'm foolish, but I have a tendacy to give most people the benefit of the doubt until they show me otherwise. I have way more friends than I do enemies. Hell, I might even forgive Kerry if he'd change his stupid traitorous, arrogant, dip-shit, elitist attitude. :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Home sweet home, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 05:29:16 (ZULU)

TonyY - The definition you are discribing is that of the Guerrilla. There is a difference in the that and a terrorist. The 'G' is a soldier that is fighting a war and attacks military targets. He is a force multiplier, and allows for an economy of force that ties up a disproportional number of regular forces trying to contain him. He will have an underground movement in the city and an auxillary force in the country side providing support such as food, supplies and intel. The 'G' will not attack civies as he gains his support and lively hood from the civies. He must not piss them off. Just ask Che in Bolivia. He did not have civilian support and thus died on the vine and was scooped up. Terrorists attack only soft targets and will attack civilian targets most of the time. Much the same way that cowards with guns never go postal in a police station or a gun club.

I hope that it was the definition that confused you and not mycrappy style of writing.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 05:42:43 (ZULU)

Morris,

Great idea on the patches. I imagine once all is said and done, all unit isignia would make the cut. I have a similar chunk of wood with the desert patches of the initial units of OIF around a Iraqi Bayonet...decided I will hand this to LouAnn in person.

Never liked a leatherman. First one I tried had a crimping cut on the jaws for non-electric caps. Clever idea, if only our caps were a few milimeters less in diameter. The lousy tool would cut them....not good if ya got too close to the dangerous stuff in the ass end....heheh. Gerber's been my choice ever since they started making them. Figures the Leatherheaded nutcase is a leftist. Hell, he tried to blow me up already...so I ain't surprised now. Must hate us military types to do dat! :)))

OK, let the spending begin: Began working my list of guns to have (the dreams of the desert). The .45. Ran into a Kimber for less'n 6 bills. All debate on Les, Wilson, etc ended on the price tag. It just happened to be the Custom Eclipse II with lo-pro night sights that I kinda liked as I left on my tour. For a third off the usual price, I actually "had no choice" but to buy it.

Finally, a full size for the safe.

Where's a good place for Wilson Mags or any such high quality mags?

(heheh-here we go again. someone's gonna say "Glock"--I just know it)

Kevin: That is customer service!

JimT: Up in 10th group when the wall fell--we kinda felt cheated. Ha. Then, the peace dividend crap came along---and everyone got busier than ever. It didn't take a rocket scientist (no offense pete)to see instability coming at us. After all the instability I can stand--I agree: I sure miss the USSR.

Now that was an enemy to celebrate!

Pete, Jerry: Rommel had a chivalrous honor and yeah, was an enemy of ours. Hate them at your own risk. To respect them enough to understand them kinda worked for Patton, ya know?

Unfortunately, the more I understand the current crop o' bad guys, the more I hate them. Still, I wanna know all I can about them...as objectiviely as possible. BTW, this is a scary mind-set we;re dealing with. Evil barely begins to describe...

This is not politics, this is not soldiering for these cretins. This is a cult that allows, no, encourages...no, it demands-- butchering of non-members as a celebratory event.

Rick: LeMay woulda been Nurenburged' had we lost that one, eh?

Economy of Force works with known targets, Tony...give me some grids and we'll wax them all tonight. Dang! We need "troops" to go git them grids! GWT is old school infantry---and it is a big-ass planet that needs to be swept! And, your last comment---Muslim or not, is darn close to the problem. Inter-Islamic sympathy is rampant at the coffee houses, if not overt in support for targeting westerners. The pres. is going way out of his way to keep it from escalating to that point...but, things could get close without much of a push. As of now, some means juctify the ends to these folks. But, to understand--you must know the ends we (they) are talking about: simply infidels in the holy lands. Some, it is as secular as westerners in their culture mucky-mucking it up. Be careful how you attack this---patronizing efforts got us here in the first place...yeah, I'll drop it. Waaaaay too involved for the DR. Beer discussion if ever there was: "Terrorists psycho-analyzed..." Shit, we'd get drunk before we got far with that. eh? But the danger does lie in rallying the faith to the means...

Tony: He commanded SWC when I went thru. Little short guy with service hash marks all the way up to the combat patch. Holy cow! We were in a Class A inspection at the JFK parking lot toward Moon hall. I whipped out his book for a signing---and spent the weekend working at the new delta compound digging culverts! I still have that signed copy though. Heheh.

Hey Rick--wasn't that CSM Bone back then? He had no sense of humor...

Ken M: Too bad you can't get the SPEAR armor. A bit lighter. Smoke...still trying to think of why I never needed to carry it. Frags, oh yeah. But no smoke. Had better things for fast movers...obscurants for didi-mau? Hell, git ya a shotgun and cut it off. That'll obscure things!

Dang Tired! Been hanging with the kids all weekend! I think they tag-teamed me between naps...they just keep going, and going...

No edits tonight. You all get gibberish!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 06:03:52 (ZULU)

Rick, Pete, Joe M., Bolt and Tony Y. all posting in the same evening? The roster is getting back into the same groove. Great writing, thank you!

Michael
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 06:26:27 (ZULU)

Joe M, you have SIPR access where you're at? I'd like to pick your brain a litle bit, if I may. MelendyKJ at 1mardiv dot usmc dot mil will get you my NIPR account.

Smoke is normally for day marking, night we use the lasers or strobes of various sorts. Obscuration? Not really needed, we'e trying to take the fight to them, I don't think we'll run into a force that we'll NEED to run from, at least not if the staff zeroes get the Hell out of the FSC's business.... Got a Benelli, works well. Nice for getting the Iraqis attention:)

I hate the tangoes, don't really hate the Iraqis, just dislike the fact that their culture is 100% disfunctional.

I'm thinking a nice 20" barreled M40A1 when I get back, the only choice now is 260, 7-08 or the reliable but boring 308Win. If I move out of IL (looking good for heading N to WI), a can will go on the rifle, and that is the pusher for a 308 rifle. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 08:26:33 (ZULU)

Just a quik note,

Attended The Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot and Gun Show this w/e. WOW!

Fella had a 308 chain gun/4K/min. that was amazing. Saw everything from raw mercury to Thermite for sale. Excellent shoot. Top notch range safety crew.

Flew with a good helo pilot in Hughes "little bird" that scared my son to death on Sat. and thrilled him on Sunday. (He kept his eyes open the second time around.) I think that's my favorite chopper. I thought about gettin my rotor ticket for about 5 minutes 'fore I wised up. :)

John

John
Bruce Robinson JUly 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 12:27:40 (ZULU)

Papa9er67 and Joe M.,

Joe, I know you got a FN SPR and I promised you a good load for it, so here goes:

M118LR Brass

42.5 grains of IMR4895

Winchester WLR primers

Lapua 170 grain D46 bullets

Avg. MV of 2785 fps with low ES and SD

Here is what it does in my SPR:

http://people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/ussr/Target2004A.jpg

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 13:21:10 (ZULU)

I shot a 1 kiloyard F-class match Saturday. I got sloppy and dropped too may points. Too many different disciplines make it hard to focus on any one.

I'm off to the Far East tomorrow for another adventure. I'm actually looking forward to getting back there.....go figure.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 13:32:36 (ZULU)

The Hebrews wrote a book once and outlined the tactics to defeat the Muslims (under a different name at the time.) It said more directly than I am about to state to kill them lay waste to their country especially burn their crops and steal their women and children for slaves. The "book" mentioned that anything short of that will leave you open to attack and future problems. I'm no advocate of anybody's religious zeal as a tool of war but I do agree that we have to show force and lots of it. These ancients knew how to deal with the extremists from experience.... Shock and Awe won't get it. Negotiations and elections won't either...Complete destruction will. It makes the neighbors quiet down bow to the east and drink their goat milk while they enjoy the fact they aren't burning.

When we got into this mess I thought we were gonna level the place but I should have known better. But as for Iraq (they had their chance back in the 90's to avoid it). I felt like the spoils of war should be taken (that's the oil fields for you folks in Rio whatever) and warning should be issued to others who would attack this country. I know, I know. I'm a barbarian but I'm in the phone book when you give up with the gunboat diplomacy and school building.

Brogers
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 14:30:33 (ZULU)

Joe M - Yeah, remember my kids tag teaming me when I would get back from a trip. :) I remmeber those dam formations in the parking lot where every swinging dick in SWC had to form up. Had a foriegn troopie ask why we do it. I told him it was for accountability and so that information can be disemminated unit wide. He looked at me for a second and said, "Ahhh, yes, we have same thing in our country, we call it Bull shit." Can't argue with that.

Actually SGM Bone at that time was MSG Bone and he was Commandant of the NCO Course. His building was accross the street from mine. One morning, after I had spent 43 hours in the field without sleep, shaving or a uniform change, I was walking into the Advanced Skills building when I heard a "Hey Troop!". Well kowing that as a Master Sergeant, I am not a troop to anyone, I knew he wasn't talking to me. Well a hand grabbed my shoulder and spun me around. Yep it was MSG Bone and he was going to chew me out for looking like I had been in the field for 43 hours. He said that I should be a better example for his young NCOs. I told him that I was an excellent example of an NCO doing his job in the field, unlike some NCOs that spend their time behind a desk always polishing their boots. This went over his head so I told him to stay on his side of the street and leave me and my NCOs alone. At that time, I out ranked him as a MSG with more time in grade. I also mentioned that if he ever touched me again I would knock him the f**k out. Needless to say that we were not friends. He did become my Bn SGM later in 7th Gp. Yes guys, I have always won friends and influenced people. :)

The SGM you are thinking of is SGM Taylor of 1st Group fame that shot the dog in formation. The other SGMs were Foreman, and Ivanov.

And yes, LeMay would have been up for war crimes for his indiscrimnate bombing of Europe.

John - Were you inside or on the plank? If not the plank, try to find a way to ride that sucker that way. That will suck you gut in! :)

Brogers - Sherman had it right. You must make war so undisiable, so horrible, that you will never start another. That is what needs to be accomplished. I will never understand those that do not learn from history. The only time that a 'G' force will negociate a cease fire is when they are almost whipped and they wish time to rebuild. They will then, a their time and place, break the cease fire and be twice as strong and three times as smart, for they have studied history and have learned your tactics. They know where you are weak and where they can use your doctrine against you. The enemy must beg for a truce, unconditionlly and immediately throw down their arms or you fight until they do. The one thing that must be done though is to make sure htat you do not give the 'G' a civialian base by indiscrimante bombing and killing of innocnets. That must be avoided. Civilian causalties can not be avoided, but massive carpet bombing can.

My two cents, beat me up on my thoughts, it is what makes these dicussions so fun.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayettevile, NC, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 16:40:43 (ZULU)

Rick B wrote "My two cents, beat me up on my thoughts, it is what makes these dicussions so fun."

Strictly in the interest of fun...and with genuine respect...

Sherman's march to the sea undermined the "logistic" base of Lee's army and destroyed what moral remained. It demonstrated how the strengths of the North could be brought to bear upon the weakness of the South. I think the assignment given Sherman vs the approach he employed led to most of the impact.

Are you suggesting that simply making things more unpleasant would lead to a more effective campaign vs Terrorists? Didn't the Soviets do a pretty good job of making things tough for the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan and Chechnya?

medicjim
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 17:27:23 (ZULU)

Rick; I don't disagree with anything except perhaps the larger civilian base for sympathy in this case exists no matter what we do.

The few who are are friends by the old rule of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend" principal are not going to save the day.

A by product of religious fervor and a willingness to eliminate the West forever is what we have whether we learn to deal with it or not. In other words they have the civilian base anyway it's fear of our resolve and our willingness to follow through that they don't have. And that is what defeated us in Vietnam and kept the powers that be in North Korea. Fortunately for us, WWII led to leveling and destroying to an extent that made it clear that it would be useless to resist further or we would have a insurgency in Japan and probably Europe to deal with. I wish there was a good solution and a way out. But the philosophy of winning their hearts and minds seems a little obsolete these days of suicide bombings and attacks on civilians.

Brogers
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 18:09:12 (ZULU)

My friend just purchased a new Tikka T3 Tactical rifle in .223 with the 20 inch barrel. Twist is 1 in 8. Neat little rifle, adjustable cheek piece, comes with picatenny rail, threaded barrel for a supressor. Heavy hammer forged barrel!

Problem is we ain't getten it to shoot very well. Any one have any experience with this rifle? It dosen't shoot 60 or 62 grain bullets very well and 69 grain bullets are worse! All the other Tikka's we have shot have a slower twist amd shot under a half inch most all the time. Not real sure why they picked a 1-8 twist.

Anyone have any ideas? Loads to try? Bullets to try?

Thanks

Barry Moreland

Barron Moreland
Lexington, SC, - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 18:32:07 (ZULU)

friends-enemies? thats a lesson we never learn, Bin Laden and the rest of em where considered friends at one point. respect can be given to honourable soldiers no matter which side. Same goes for gorillas. Terrorists no chance. Problems come when we try to judge war time actions by soldiers with peace time morals of pascifists.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 19:02:39 (ZULU)

SC staff;

I would like to request any of the staff to contact me off-site in regards to website raffles. Have a few questions to ask. Thanks.

JR;

E-mail sent regarding barrels.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 19:28:07 (ZULU)

Rick,

Inside, no doors at all. The plank woulda been more fun. One hand on the video cam and the other on my kid. Whatta ride.

John

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 19:32:28 (ZULU)

Rick B wrote "My two cents, beat me up on my thoughts, it is what makes these discussions so fun."

Gosh, I need to go back and re-read some of the posts from the last few days with the new understanding that you and perhaps other commentors intended to foster a "fun " discussion of the topic. Given the pejorative tone of the comments I mistakenly thought that the intent was to stifle, rather than promote open discussion. My sincere apologies to all.

Rod

Rod Hansen
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 20:33:22 (ZULU)

"Britain has no permanent friends, just permanent interests." Disraeli, I believe. We need to remember that, as well. It matters not if another country likes us, but it matters much if they fear us. "The Prince" was a very insightful book, written by Machiavelli. His conclusion that it is better to be feared than it is to be loved. Takes too long to explain why, but he's probably right.

Just returned from Badlands. Learned some valuable stuff last week.

1. When using GPS nav gear, it is muy importante to have the right information entered INTO it, to get the right info OUT of it.....it took some time to figure out why a nav marker would be in the middle of a lake.

2. Long life batteries....aren't.

3. If you don't know what yer doing (like me!), take a compass and another map. Those cornfields are big, and you CAN get lost for a while. Oh, and a couple of Power bars to prevent starvation.

4. Don't F**k with millipedes. THey F**k back

5. All cows are not placid creatures. And it's near impossible to skulk around, unnoticed, when any are around. (right, Constatine?)

6. Deep mud really sucks. Literally and figuratively. Jeez, it rained. Maybe helicopters aren't such a bad idea, after all.

Anyway, it's good to be home.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, October 11, 2004, at 20:39:32 (ZULU)

KenM: No SIPR as of this minute. One machine in the whole dang regional Brigade. Plan to get by and set up a AKO-S account though. For the record, go through the archives and search for Morgue. He is in-country still, and can hook you into some real-time intel like you dream about. Use the email thingy to contact. Trenton; and tell him I sent ya for bona fides.

John: I once had that urge. Lasted longer than five minutes--now I'm stuck with it. When I do retire--I won't get in a rotary wing again, unless exfilling from hell or a worse place. They be soooo dangerous! Fun things usually are though, eh?

DonK: I am a believer! That is a nice shot group. My SPR is not picky about loads to hold MOA or less---so yours will probably workie well in my stick too. BTW, wife laid away some reloading gear for me. My X-mas present this year. I hope she doesn't regret it. She will, but one can always hope. harhar.

Rick, yeah...Bone is in my memory-banks as a, well, like you escribed. I was displacing evil---he was around when I went through the Echo course later though. Whoever it was, they shit a brick on me afterwards. Who am I to ask for an autograph in formation, after all? Hahaha. Priceless. I used to be such a little shit. I find myself the devil's advocate for kids of the same stripe to this day. There is high spirits, then there is a line not to be crossed. There is a diff, but too many don't see it that way. I was fortunate to become slave labor under some reasonable guys. Today, they nuke kids for less.

Can't fault ya on the total war theory. We are backing off again in Sadr as we speak. That tells the noncomittal Iraqis that we don't have the stomach for this sort of thing. That also tells them to bet on the horse that will be there in the end. We're pretty sure we will be, but the BGs make a better case for longevity right now (thanks to the media and Kerry with his DNC minions). That, if nothing else, suppresses any "help" we would otherwise receive in rooting out the BGs from among the people. We have got to reduce the strongholds totally or not at all. That is just the way it is, and I won't even argue my point. If any one disagrees, do so at the wall. It'll be more entertaining than trying to convince me.

Bill, the terrs are killing the locals by a wide margin over us. That has led to a situation not unlike a dealer moving next to a large family. There is fear and loathing---but unless the good guys can convince the family they will protect them, the family suffers in silence. They are terrorized into silence by the threat of violence. We must show that threat not to be credible, then we can get on with it---these folks want the BGs gone--and they will tip us if they belive we will be the last one standing in this. Of course, we have to shut up the entire leftists establishment first...heheh.

Jody C said Raffle! I heard it! Rafleraffleraffle! HavaRaffle and a smile, raffles have ridges, Rafflin' in the rain...A raffle a day keeps the doctor away...I think, therefore I raffle. Descartes said it best, come on--raffleraffleraffle already! I'm Jonesing for a game of chance!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 20:56:09 (ZULU)

Joe unless you encounter a populace that's ready to give their own butts up for their freedom it's a hard thing to make much headway. Example again is Vietnam.

Rick; think about the south war. "Yankee go home!" burning flags etc. Stopped when the commies gave it up. Been a long time since you saw that down there now. Fortunately it's been a long time since we had to invade a country down there. Didn't work out when we did. Some people are born to be slaves of tyranny. Others come along and found a democracy in a place called the USA.

We paid the price but it's gonna be a long time since you find anybody over there in that sandbox that will. They've been the slaves of strongmen, kings, warlords and anybody who will grab control. There must be a reason for this. I submit that happens because they don't have the will and desire to stop it. At least not in the name of freedom of anyone but their own tribe.

Charles' Granfield Oklahoma is hard to get lost in. You just go by the landmarks. If you walk a day west your are a little more tired than if you walk a day east. So if you're just half as tired as you were yesterday then your in the middle. Even if you know where you are it's not important cause there's nothing there either. Got that?

Brogers
Monday, October 11, 2004, at 22:37:02 (ZULU)

RAFFLE! RAFFLE! did I hear RAFFLE ??? My check book is open and my pen is cocked...waiting for the green light =)

Joe S.
Dago, Kommiefornia, US fo A - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 00:28:08 (ZULU)

Hey you guy's in florida. Got this in an email, did it realy happen?

********************************************************************

City Councilman ejected from studio:

T. Bubba Bechtol, southern comedian, regular on The Grand Ole Opry & part time City Councilman from Pensacola, Florida, was asked on a local live radio talk show the other day just what he thought of the allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners.

His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner's scrotum to a car's battery cables will save one American GI's life, then I have just two things to say:

"Red is positive, black is negative"

********************************************************************

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 00:44:51 (ZULU)

I guess I should have been more careful with the "R" word! LOL!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 00:46:08 (ZULU)

re: Tikka T3 accuracy problem

Does it shoot any loads well?

Perhaps try some heavy-projectile factory match loads just as a point of reference/comparison.

If the rifle is a problem child, some of the things to look at are:

- Scope Mount/rings

- scope

- action screws

- barrel crown

- bedding

- stock/barrel clearance

It is my understanding that the burnt powder pattern at the muzzle will be symmetric if the crown is ok. It will tend to be asymmetric if the crown is poor.

Just remember that any alterations could enganger your warranty, if the rifle turns out to be a dog it would nice to get it fixed or replaced under warranty.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 01:07:40 (ZULU)

re: alleged Bechtol quote

Use this URL or click on my name:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/bechtol.asp

summary: some of it is true, some of it isn't

By the way, http://www.snopes.com is a wonderful site to check for urban legends and alleged public quotes.

Sadly, some of the best quotes turn out to be legends.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 01:16:29 (ZULU)

Medic Jim - Actually, Sherman's thoery was that of "Total War" and that is what he waged during his sweep through the south. If his only goal was to cut off logistics then all he had to do was cut lines of communication. He opted to burn everything in his path, make the war so disagreeable as to make them not want to do it again. Did it work for the civil war? No, it only made him a hated man. Was it a viable option, yes, it was used during WWII. Again Dresden comes to mind. The idea is to make war so ugly that the civilians will not agree to it again. IT should have been done during WWI but the rules of Napoleonic gentlemen war prevailed and Germany raised its head again. Look at both Germany and Japan today. netiher wish another war on their soil, Total War. Now does it work in the Middle East, yes, look at the towns that have been taken over by real force and the civilians are happy and they hate the militia (read terrorists). We hit hard where we needed to hit hard and destroyed the fight in the "militia" members. Merely unpleasant does not count. The Russians used Nazi tactics of wiping out a village for a single shot. That pisses off the civies. Find fix and annihilate the enemy and what base he has supporting them. Do that withhout undue distress tot he civies that did not support them in the first place. Too many look at the rest of the world as they do the US. The US is country based. The third world countries is village and famillie based big difference. Very hard to put all of this into this small space. Especially after a couple of beers.

Brogers - I think that the civilian base is not as big as many think. A lot of Iraq is quiet due to the civilans not hating the "infidel" as much as many believe they do. Are there the brain washed who see everything non muslim as an afront to God, yes. Is it all pervasive, no.

Peter - Thank you, I hate the tendency to judge the past by present mores. The same goes with judging the actions of war by peace time mores. Never works, but gives the libs something to squeal about.

John - Still one hell of a ride wasn't it? The Blackhawk pulls even more Gs and can be a real kick in the butt to ride. Inside is good too. :)

Rod - I will never attempt to stife thought or opinions. One must remember that the internet does not allow for tonal inflections and sarcasm, irony, or humor does not translate well. Add my inability to write coherently most of the time and you can see the problems. Please add your two cents or ten cents, hell go for a dollar. We learn form differences of opinion and others experiences.

Charles - There is an excellent article, and I need to look the dam thing up, that decrees the fact that the new "religion" of Europe is that of opposing the US. Even if that means opposing something that is in the best interests of Europe. It has to do with the ying yang theory of opposing forces. There used to be a Soviet Union that opposed us, now there is none. The new opposing force is Europe, not militarily, now, but in opinion. Again, too many beers for this conversation.

Joe M. - And that missed strength, that non committal is what they do see as pure weakness. Why back us when we show that we will lose. IF they back us and we do lose then there is hell to pay. Why take the chance when we broadcast weakness everyday. Hell, as I see it, backing Kerry by so many inthe US is a show of weakness to them. He has given a time frame for withdrawal. All the other side has to do is hold on for that time frame. Our possible allies also see that as a give up the ship time and they are left to hang as we did the 'Yards" in Viet Nam. As stated, total war, if they fight form a location, level it, regardless of the location. I do not believe the squealing will be as bad as the libs make it out to be.

Brogers - It is hard to convince a group of prople that have only known tyranny. However is is harder to convince them when you don't have the balls to show them the way. That is what we are showing them everytime we play this pussy footing around. As Joe stated, if we can't convince them that we can, or their gov't can protect them, why try. They have lived under the foot for too long. They are used to it and prefer life, as they know it.

Again, my point of view only and others may show their side. It is hard to show an open line of communications on the internet as tone and smiles do not exist.

Anyway, this is beoming polie science country and if the mods want it to end just say so and we can go back to shooting, or we can add shoting into the mix. :)

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 01:33:32 (ZULU)

Poll;

Here's a link to a poll on the Irish Times website. The question is about who would you want to see get elected, GWB or Kerry. You can also opine if you wish.

http://www.ireland.com/focus/uselection2004/poll/index.htm

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 02:18:32 (ZULU)

Rick there is nothing wrong with your writing. My confusion happens because I am getting old. I have to admit that I have done a fine job of destroying many a brain cell over the years.

Back to politics country. My thoughts have been leaning toward creating a 10,000 degree waste land. I quess they started soon after the first head was sliced. It seems like it would be a quick end to a slow solution. Today there seems to be too much ethnic cleansing by so called muslums. These are just my thoughts but I'm tired of listening to a lot of bull.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 02:55:27 (ZULU)

Barry M.,

I have a Remington 700 LTR with very similar features that I had a problem finding a load for. I tried 55gr, 62gr, 69gr and 75gr match bullets in it. It seemed that the Hornady 75 gr Match bullet with 23.3 gr of Accurate 2520 drives tacks for me. It shoots sub-minute groups at 100 yrds and easy head shots at 400 yrds. I tried Varget first because my .308 likes it so well but the A-2520 seems to work the best. Give it a try.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Mississippi, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 05:40:19 (ZULU)

Brian,

Sorry to hear about your friend. Hang tough bro.

Jim

JimT
Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 06:41:54 (ZULU)

Rick; I think if either one of us has one more beer we are gonna agree totally.

Brogers
Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 13:24:10 (ZULU)

On Iraq, Rick, you write very well and make alot of sense. Then again I am dumb enough to want to go to Iraq next year. As long as Bush is President thats my plan. If Kerry steals this I wont even think of it. Hell will all become hated baby killers under that guy.

Now I seldom get political but after two debates and countless idiots attempting to tell em what I should have seen (not what I saw) and heard during the debates I am worried. Suddenly there is a mob mantality (spelling sucks) and President Bush is a bad guy. They play him off as an rich guy who is so far above us all he does not know what we are like. Now I dont know about you but a couple of weeks ago I saw Presdent Bush fishing for Black Bass with Roland Martin. President Bush handled a baitcaster like a guy who has done so for many years on a regular basis, certainly better than most of the guys I take fishing with me. They where on a pond President Bush had built for fishing and Bush knew about Bass and how to raise them. Thats no ellite guy, its only a side step from Nascar. Its almost like he is no longer cool.

Please explain to me WTF happened after the debates. All these folks where for invading Iraq and now that see what President Bush and everyone here already knew, a few civlians got hurt, they want to say it was a mistake and blame someone? Everytime I think of this I see that SOB Kerry pretending to throw his medals away from RVN, but not even having the balls to go through with that. Crap he flip flopped even back then. I mean think about it. He was so ashamed he made a big deal about throwing his medals away but really only pretended to. Makes me wonder if he carved a wound or two on himself to get out of RVN in the first place.

Now he is strong on "Hunting down and killing the Terrorists" Anyone really buy that? I see a repeat of the medal throwing. Just say and pretend to do what gets you what you want. Damm feel like a young women here who just got told shes the only one and he will still respect me in the mourning. No thats not right he did not buy me Beer and Pizza firste or give me a kiss.

My hope on all this is President Bush gets in again and turns the heat up.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 15:20:56 (ZULU)

Mike,

The debates take on a whole different feel if you try this simple filter...

Everytime one of the candidates talks about a position, ask yourself... is this hindsight or is this a position they took while actually in "the arena", where decisions are made with less than perfect info. Say it out loud... "hindsight", "hindsight", "hindsight" and focus on who is talking at the time.

Bottom line, any fool can look smart talking about what they would have done... it's the stuff they HAVE DONE that counts. With that very simple filter, the truth emerges.... that is, if they value truth, along with justice.... it's the American way <g> (Has anyone ever described the "socialist way"?.... or does it need to be expounded in a 1000 pages of nuance)

Nevermind that idiot Nostradamus, Teddy Roosevelt was a friggin' genius, he saw this election coming 100 years before it happened... and he let us know in a speach to the French!

Rick B - I now understand your perspective and more or less agree...thanks for taking the time to expand on your original point.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 15:50:45 (ZULU)

Pete Lincoln

Did that shipment get to you???

I'll send another of small stuff once the first shows up.

Dave "Doc" King
MD, - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 17:23:07 (ZULU)

Gents,

America's collective memory is about as long as my...! Which means they are in big trouble.

Kerry has gone on record saying he would "apologize" to all those islamic countries/terrorists, if elected. A far cry from his current stance on getting tough. Bastard has more cycles than a Maytag...

Personally, I hope he does go apologize. Would love to see a taped and televised version of HIS beheading.

Sorry, gents. In a really pissy mood today...back to wondering what has happened to this country?

Out to the garage. Got to load some .35 Whelan Ackley Imp for elk season.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 17:45:52 (ZULU)

medicjim,

Agree with you regarding TR.

"I preach to you, then, my countrymen, that our country calls not for the life of ease but for the life of strenuous endeavor. The twentieth century looms before us big with the fate of many nations. If we stand idly by, if we seek merely swollen, slothful ease and ignoble peace, if we shrink from the hard contests where men must win at hazard of their lives and at the risk of all they hold dear, then the bolder and stronger peoples will pass us by, and will win for themselves the domination of the world. Let us therefore boldly face the life of strife, resolute to do our duty well and manfully; resolute to uphold righteousness by deed and by word; resolute to be both honest and brave, to serve high ideals, yet to use practical methods. Above all, let us shrink from no strife, moral or physical, within or without the nation, provided we are certain that the strife is justified, for it is only through strife, through hard and dangerous endeavor, that we shall ultimately win the goal of true national greatness."

Words spoken over 100 years ago that still ring true today.

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 21:17:50 (ZULU)

History country , today? God its good to read on this site. Better then having cable! ;-)

SteveS
Ft. Bragg AO, NC, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 21:22:41 (ZULU)

Barry, try feeding that tikka some 50gr vx's or bt's with 26.0grs of varget...seat'm out a bit...they arent the heaviest but man it shoots...if that doesn't work. I think there can usually be a 700 heavy barrel found for sale in the emporium..or a stealth..j/k good luck...also 25gr with sierra 60hp works pretty good to...all used with fsrm primers....

did some say raffle?????????????????? sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

Marc
Kerry for President....OF FRANCE.........FRANCE ...make sure ya read it right, USA - Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 22:55:41 (ZULU)

If we could get TR back in the Presidency, I would seriously consider supporting cloning. That man is almost timeless and should be up for sainthood. Saint Theodore of America, I like it.

Marius;

E-mail sent.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 01:09:33 (ZULU)

TonyY - Can't completely disagree wth you, especially when I see slow beheadings. However, i also see young kids, boys and girls with smiling faces and wonder if I should commit them to glass as well. Something about visiting the sins of the father that bothers me about that plan.

But thank you for not condemning my ramblings sometimes. I can get out there at times and it is a combo of age and brain cell depletion. :)

Brogers - Cats and dogs lying down together, the whole biblical thing if this continues with the agreeing! :)

Mike - The problem is that the pundits are spinning for Kerry and they only bring up the good of Kerry and the bad of Bush during the debates. This is all that the sheeple see that watch only ABC, CBS and NBC, hell throw in CNN as well. Something to look at is hindsight in another way. Let us say the invasion never took place. Let us say that Saddam had WMD. Let us say that this 9/11 a small nuke went off in DC, sarin was released in the subways of New York, and Bio Toxin was dumped in the water system of LA. What do you think the connect the dots people would be screaming? A president can't act as Kerry proscribes. He must see the possibles and act to deflect the worse case possible using the best intel he has available. I would like to see the news agencies show all the clips of Kerry's carping on how we must over throw Sadddam starting in the mid 90s. However that does not fit the strategy of getting the little pecker head elected.

As far as Bush not in touch, at what time has Kerry even acted as a normal man? He is the epitomy of the rich elite. He is the epitomy of the libral elite that KNOWS he is correct and the great unwashed needs his guidance or we are all doomed. He has never done or gone anywhere where he is part of the "normal man" group. Fish, hell he would not bait his own hook. More film of this oxygen thief needs to be shown with his gas guzzling plane, boat and cars. They need to show more film of his stupid wife advising pig farmers on how to be pig farmers. This is the Kerry picture. Opps sorry, lost it for a minute.

medicjim - It is hard to converse on the internet. I'm glad that I could better explain as I do have a hard time and my typos and mis spelling does not help. :) Your TR reference is a great one.

Wes - I will be more than happy to film that one.

Don K. - The problem is just that, the American people are now fast food and 15 to 30 sec commercial fools. If they can' see it right now they do not understand it. If it costs them anything then to hell with it. War means bloodshed. This dam count of bodies everyday is petty and stupid. The only reason is to place pressure on Bush. The sheeple of the great US will look at this and never place it in context. At no time has the US been engaged in this high of tempo hostile action with so few casualties. NEVER with a dem at the helm. Think about it.

TR was a good man but he had some real whacked quirks. Becarful of what you wish as they may get them.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 02:24:42 (ZULU)

Keith Ford, the Senior Engineer and Chief SWS engineer at Harris Engineering, Inc., has asked me for input on the Harris S-L bipod for military sniper use. I recommended options for the weapons we issue (ARMS swing-lever mount for Picatinny rail-equipped rifles; Pod-Loks; Tank's Speed Screw knob; and possibly a different color. Any other recommendations let me know and I'll e-mail him.

Thanks.

sinister
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 02:34:02 (ZULU)

Sinister - I know this is asking a lot, but perhaps they could design the thing in such a way that it presents a flush profile while being dragged...maybe by creating locks for the legs and allowing the mount to be aligned both forward and back on the gun so the legs can be folded toward the reciever.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 02:46:30 (ZULU)

I second the motion for the 55 vmax in the Tikka. If it won't shoot that I'd try a recrown and if that doesn't do it. A new barrel is probably worth considering. IF a barrel crown is bad enough to throw the smoke noticably in the wrong direction it certainly is bad but you can't depend on that. If the gun don't shoot it's worth a try. Get it recrowned, run a cone shapped dremmel in it carefully. You've nothing to loose if it don't shoot anyway. You can get a light and a magnifying glass and carefully inspect the crown. Usually you can see the problem if it's bad but often you can only recrown and try it. Each rifling grove and land should be the same and the angle is not terribly critical but there needs to be an angel to it in my book.

The fact that Sadamn had no WMDs is as comforting as knowing there is no gasoline in the Texas chainsaw. It ain't the guy that just killed you that you should worry about.

Just heard some LDF on CNN say that if you tell a soldier he will be in country 9 months you'd better be sure he doesn't have to stay longer. If he has to stay another 3 months that's lying to him. How about that Joe? Did they lie to you over there? Gee do they sell insurance on that?

Camo flat finish would be nice on a bipod. Tape is nasty when it gets wet. It would be nice if the springs had a damper so you couldn't hear the "sproing" sound when you fold it down. Perhaps a type of air piston in each leg to slow it down so that the leg doesn't sound like a axe hitting an oak when it springs back. The lighter and stronger the better. How's that for a engineering problem.

Doc, they are ruining our reign of peace around here again. The BI's and the TF and the local Mounties are diggin up bones up north of the river. Say they expect to find about 21-24 sets of bones up there on the creek. That's gonna ruin our record of nobody shot dead in 2 weeks. Just when you thought it was safe. CNN will probably run it pretty soon. The allegation is that the wages of immigrant share cropping is death and a shallow grave. This state really needs a right to work law. I wonder if they paid the SS tax on that. I'd guess they didn't have 401Ks either. IT'll make more sense when you see it on CNN.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 05:10:22 (ZULU)

Rick I'm not sure if my conscience would bother me for long, although it probably would come back to haunt me later.

LTC. The sping attachments on the Harris could use a little reinforcment, I've broken a few over the years. They could use a quick attachment/detachment system other than OEM versions. They also could use something like Terry's Pod-lock, only maybe a little smaller and definitlely an OD/Tan color.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 10:13:46 (ZULU)

TonyY - trying to make contactt with you via SC email. Please give me a shout via SC email. thanks man...

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 11:35:22 (ZULU)

And my wife doesn't understand why I don't want to go to SoCal to visit her family...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135188,00.html

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 14:54:17 (ZULU)

>>>However, i also see young kids, boys and girls with smiling faces and wonder if I should commit them to glass as well. Something about visiting the sins of the father that bothers me about that plan.<<<

Rick, a lot of those happy smiling faces have been indoctrinated to "kill the great satan" without a second thought. Not a good thing for a "fatherly" type to be contemplating on. But the alternative could be worse.

Sinister, I like the speed knob and "colors" but not a fan of the pod-loc. I think a speed knob comes on the newer versions already. Quieter would also be nice. But if the new, improved version will cost $200 a pop, I’ll stick with the noise and a can of Krylon.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 15:21:02 (ZULU)

'yoteBait,

Sounds as if I'll have to bring body armor and more firepower next time I come out for a "visit".

WY6,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 16:33:27 (ZULU)

Rick

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

This is more my take on small combatants.

IF THIS COUNTRY were invaded would our children take up the fight to defend THIS country?? If the answer is yes then our defending children (small combatants) are the enemy of the invader.

Are the smiling children seeing our troops as liberators or invaders?

How does one know what they believe, I guess by action they show their true belief. Overt or covert action; carry a weapon, being the company of the enemy or acts of questionable intent (probing).

Sinister

The only probem I have with Harris is that the leg hinge/pivot nuts come loose and escape every once in a while. I peen them to keep them on a short leash. Maybe aircraft type lock nuts or factory peening.

I use the LM non-swivel model (less moving parts) and would find it nice to have a few more leg notches, perhaps at half the current interval (double the current number offered).

Replacable feet, flat smooth skids (snow) and a spiked set perhaps (concrete/brick).

A nice subdued OD color... ahhhhhh! That would be nice.

On the spring noise. Has anyone tried soft(er) foam rods inside the spring coils??

Dave "Doc" King
MD, - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 16:44:22 (ZULU)

Gents,

Anyone have a good source for Wilson's famed 1911 mags? Where's the best price--or, is there a better alternative?

On politics country: To hear the media and Kerry in particular: Iraq is a (insert word related to failure) MESS, QUAGMIRE, DISASTER ETC. Getting down to brass tacks, if one accepts this view, then one must also accept that the US Military is at best incompetent. Critical thought of the issue is inescapable: If we are in over our heads in a minor insurgency, then we do not have the military force we need. I do not think anyone truly believes that (and no one here especially), but to accept the portrayal that is being fed to us by the press and the dems is to accept just that. Look at the coverage in Iraq. Over a 2 week period where I had access to sat-feeds and realtime intel, we nailed 194 bad guys. Just us. Total US casualties over the same time frame were 7 KIA and 36 WIA. Now, that is a talley for one unit against the BGs, TOTAL casualties for the coalition. What do you suppose the media presented to the good folks back home?

I am livid with the left's depiction of Iraq. Freakin' livid. Seething. Grrrrrrrr. And what pisses me off even more is the general acceptance of this BS without any reasoning whatsoever. Well, the dems can count on one thing: They can lie all they want, most people are too lazy to do the math.

If I didn't have to suffer through it too, I'd almost wish the government these morons deserve on them!

Hey, could we cede Kaliforniastan and NY out of the union? I'd pitch in for moving expenses for anyone here that is affected, then let the sheep vote themselves into slavery and poverty. I know it is silly, but by God, it would be fun to watch.

Agree on TR, Saint Teddy! Has a nice ring to it. Timeless is exactly the word I used to describe him separately yesterday with some soldiers. Remarkable man, reamarkable life.

Bill: I am a soldier. We are at war with terror world-wide. I took many,many "benefits" while at peace, and lived comfortably to boot. I had only one expectation going over; that was winning this thing so I could go home. It settled into a routine, more or less, and we came to rotations. How nice. Not expected, but nice. Now, duty called, and that was that. Uncertainty is a fact of life in the military. Either ya deal with that or you are in the wrong line of work. Commanders who promise troops anything in a fluid situation are worse than stupid--but that is a case-by-case deal. Rumors are often the culprit on false expectations. That is the same as lying to yourself. In all, I have little sympathy for anyone "surprised" by a sliding date to return home while the Army is still in the fields of battle. As you know, I could have used Peanut as an excuse to not go in he first place, or to bail along the way...never considered an option by me, or for that matter, my family. I benefited from service, and the bill came due once more. Kinda simple for me, and I am amazed at alternative expectations in others. WTF were they thiking? GI Bill, Free medical, paychecks, great retirement for nuthin'???? Heheh.

Yep, love my Army, warts and all.

Tikkas are accurate. If that one ain't, send it back. If they can't fix it or replace it, then apply home remedies!

LouAnn: Wife and I still have you in our prayers. Keep in touch whenever you have a moment by the keyboard.

Rick: Ran into Jenny Gauthier, wife of an old aquaintence. "Phil" the Goat is doing well, but is still recovering in ohysical therapy from that accident two years back. He says Hi, and misses the "life." He is bummed that he can't volunteer (yet) and has avowed to get back up to speed for that reason alone. He is as stubborn as ever!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 17:45:14 (ZULU)

Well now! Somebody kicked my cage in passing so now I gotta come out of lurk mode. Shucky-Durn

Appoligies for length but after several edits I cant seem to get it any shorter and still make my point, for what it is!

1: Bush, yep he has done some things that don't sit well with me. Granting amnesty to illegal aliens that are already in country. Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that being in this country was a violation of Federal Law! The first word of the term says it all, ILLEGAL. Few other things that fit in the "minor incident box" But at the outset of this thing he stated that this was going to take some time and there would be some casualties. Innuendo? No. Double speak? No. Moved on flawed Intel? Yes, but is it the first time a leader has done that? Don't think so! Ask Gen Hal Moore about flawed Intel! Earlier I posted the question as to who wrote the ROE? Seems that there-a-changin. Looks like now the BG's are being told and shown; no matter what you are hiding in, under, or behind we are comming after you! Applause applause.

2: Kerry. Now here is an entity (can't say man) that is to me an embarassment to humanity. It would appear that his whole life is a lie! But just for the sake of argument lets put asside all the wishy-washy stuff aside for a minuet and concentrate on one thing.1977 before a congressional committee his statements of record that sold out this country! Being both ex military and ex LE I take those statements personally! To condemn the whole military establishment as wonton sadists and killers of the innocent is a slap in the face of all that have been there, are there and will be there. Did it happen? We know that there were isolated incidents that took place, ref: Mi Lay, but not on the wholesale endeavor he stated. We know that as a matter of record (while in France) he visited with leaders of NVA.What did he say or give up? Don't know but if the report is true that in a NV war museum there is reported to be a little nitch set asside for him that should speak volumns. Throwing his medals away? I for one don't think it really happened. Some one as vane as he would not give up the prestige they afford. But if it should be true could it be because he felt he had not truly earned them? NOT!!

To assume this would be to give him more credit than he is worthy of. His running mate. A lawyer that has a record of taking frivolus suits before the court now says "I am strongly for tort reform". Yeah right and my granny crawled out of her grave and gave me a hug this morning and said "be nice". Would I want him for a leader? Only if he lead from the front where I could keep an eye on him. I don't trust him and would not want him behind me because if I needed him I'm not sure he would be there. And in a worse case scenario we all know friendly fire kills just as dead as hostile fire. And we have seen on one of his own commercials how he handled a shot gun.

In conclusion

I have lived under twelve presidents. Some good, some not so good. But for what its worth this wannabe is the worst thing to come along since Jimmy Carter IMHO. But all on this site are supposed to be over eighteen and therefor eligible to vote. I will not presume to tell you who to vote for but will tell you to vote your heart and conscience and by all means execute your constitutional right and moral duty and vote.

Back to lurkin

Vern

Vernon
Houston, TX, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 17:54:07 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You have D/R mail inbound. N/A

Doc

Doc Holloway
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 18:53:33 (ZULU)

"................Let us say that this 9/11 a small nuke went off in DC, sarin was released in the subways of New York, and Bio Toxin was dumped in the water system of LA................."

Urban renewal.

Well damn..........there I go again...................

Mike in Texas
Texas, - Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 20:35:46 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas.

That would be me and my fire service friends dying in NYC...along with thousands of other decent, honest, hard working people in LA and DC. I'd like to drag you to meet a couple hundred of the children orphaned on 9/11.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 21:12:21 (ZULU)

Jim-- Your stock just went up in a big way!!!!!!!

Rod

Rod Hansen
Wednesday, October 13, 2004, at 22:42:08 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas...........

You've just pissed in my, MedicJim's and about a hundred thousand other disaster, hazmat and emergency responders' corn flakes. You obviously didn't mean what you posted so I suggest you clarify, apologize, or find a site that doesn't take posts such as yours so seriously. Disaster responders are a large family.

On a brighter note.......

Honorary step daughter's (daughter of the lovely and vivacious Doughlady and momma of honorary grandson) wedding is this coming Saturday. You know who gets to escort her down the aisle, or in this case grassy path. This will be the last of weddings for a while, at least my billfold hopes so. My daughter is still hanging in there and Doughlady's son is too smart to get hitched for a while.

On shooting.............

Trying to become one with the wind. I am going to start practicing some kind of meditation with nature, Zen maybe. There has to be a way to make the reading wind simpler. It's now time to pay someone for individual instruction. Not just to win matches, but just to help my sanity.

Long friggin day........Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 00:12:26 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas,

It used to be funny, and we all heard the same jokes and laughed. I even got it this time, and thought only of liberals I wouldn't miss-- initially.

BUT

It is all to real of a scenario since we woke up both literally and figuratively on September 11, 2001.

And that is no laughing matter.

BTW: That's why I alluded to secession and "let em have the government they crave" as opposed to beach-front property springing up in Nevada or PA! The former amuses me, the latter scares me (and our first responders) to death.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 00:57:07 (ZULU)

Bolt Zen himself would be perplexed. Sometimes we tend to underestimate the wind because of a few factors. One is the trajectory curve of the bullet. Shooting prone it starts at 1.5' or so above the ground. Then it's 20' high. Where most people are used to seeing the wind reports not to mention the affect of weeds, nearby objects and angle winds. In the absence of flags the only thing I've been able to glean is the use of mirage affects and combination of plants and sometimes that sugar substitue that bow hunters use to determine small wind drifts when determining where they are in relation to an animals wind. At least using the stuff your drop is the same material and that helps somewhat on days when there is very little wind but it must be taken into play. IF I have indicated by posting that I know anything about the wind you have misread.

Doc; ya'll might trade for a couple of APCs. It was on Fox news today somebody told me. Information is still little to none about what they have found. This is either the biggest thing since the John Brown raid or the biggest hoax since the Wizard of OZ. hit Kansas.

Brogers
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 01:08:13 (ZULU)

Dang, tornados all over central NC this afternoon and tonight. Pucker factor is high. Mostly around Raliegh and Wake County. Bummerooski!

Yotebait.......

I can understand crosswinds, they blow the boolit off course left or right. I haven't quite figgered out head and tail winds. One would think that a head wind would lift AND slow the bullet which would canel each other out on elevation. One would think that a tail wind would speed up BUT push the bullet lower. I will never understand vertical winds, how you measure them or where you measure them. The only vertical winds I could think of would be in front of a berm. Mirage continues to amaze me. Now I find out that the direction that the sun shines affect trajectory.

Last week I watched Jim Owens' video "Reading the Wind" 5 or 6 times. I understood Jim's explanation about determining the constants. But, got really confused about reading the wind closest to the muzzle, OR the mirage at the target? It would appear to the inexperienced that you would do one or the other. I emailed Jim and he simply sent me his phone number and said to call. I did and Jim and I had a nice discussion. I almost understood but still need some side by side help on the range.

My biggest problem, one which was rampant at Butner last weekend, was when there appeared to be no wind. Saturday morning I shot the first relay, which I hate doing. There was ZERO mirage, a slight haze, the flags were not moving and if you farted the smell would hang over your butt. HOWFRIGGINEVER, something was pushing the pills! I would run a string of 10's with an X here and there and then all the sudden would have one go high or low for no unexplained reason. I honestly don't think it was the idiot behind the trigger. This type of 'no wind' condition continued during the first 2 relay's all weekend. For the last relays of the each day, the wind came up to the point that you could actually work with it. BUT, then the mirage intercoursed with the wind and I couldn't hit a barndoor because I couldn't make up my mind which to watch. Henceforth, me screwed the pooch in the afternoon matches.

ANYWHO, I have the utmost respect for those folks that can actually put all the conditions together and make a shot based on their observations. I honestly don't know how a real live sniper gets by without sighters LOLLOLLOL!

I now think that now matter what weight pill you shoot, it has to go fast or to the max pressure you can acheive safely. One experienced shooter that was observing couldn't figger out why we weren't shooting 155's in the no wind situation and 190's-210's in the high wind situation. Hell, I don't know myself but the more I think about it, it does make sense. Me wonders if people aren't tunnelvisioned on the 175SMK.

Joe M.......

Well said! I used to joke about how much structure fishing there would be if Kalifornicate would slide off. That's not funny anymore either. Those of us that got the pages on 9/11 are a tad more sensitive now, for better or worse.

Vernon.......

Another well said! Don't vote, don't bitch.

Sinister.......

Will also vote for a more vegatative color, flat OD appears to be the least offensive. They need to come up with a tactical Frissbee. With all acolades due to Master InSain, the use of a Frissbee or a Tupperware lids works. I tried a tupperware lid this weekend, feels like the rifle is sliding back right into your shoulder upon recoil instead of jumping. Little skis on the pod feets may be a neat trick. I also have an idea for a universal-joint type thingie that could be added to the pod mount that would allow lateral adjustment/mover swings without the pod feet catching in grass, etc. Just don't have the funds to see it through fruition.

BTW, missing your face at the matches this year. Make an appearance soon if you can swing it. Had a couple of military dudes on the line last weekend. Also saw two vehicles bearing US Government plates on them. Heard through the grapevine that they belonged to some DELTA dudes that had come to shoot with us, couldn't confirm or deny. I was going to attempt to converse, but they didn't appear to talkative. Had a nice contingent from the Charlotte, NC PD there but I didn't get to meet them. Maybe at another match later on.

Well, I've rambled enough. Boss bitched at me too much this afternoon and I felt the need to make a long post to compensate. Bolt out!

Bolt
Wind challenged....., NC, - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 02:08:05 (ZULU)

Bolt

As I see it trying to beat the wind is a TOF (Time Of Flight) thing, less exposure, less wind effect. What ever gets through the wind in the least time is the winner for wind conditions.

Mirage is another matter, it's difficult to hit what isn't there, misses high and low are probably a boil, we saw a lot of those those last weekend.

The Government vehicle guys were shooting next to me for nearly the entire three days, fine bunch of folks, I wish them the best. They did well with their equipment but used issue type stuff, not the less durable specialized gear lots of folks were using. MREs in the back of the van, I'll bet they ate some BBQ too just to keep the indigenous folks happy (observe local customs :) ).

See you at the 8 x 600 shoot???

Dave "Doc" King
MD, - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 02:43:12 (ZULU)

Doc......

I agree on TOF. Going to work on the bench and chrono when things settle down a bit around here. Don't have any time left between the 600 weekend after this and the 800,900,1000 the week after. This is becoming an expensive month! Will be there for the 600 for sure, may can only afford to shoot one day of the palma weekend.

I would like to have met the government dudes. Always interested in that type of stuff. Not having been in the military, I kinda live vicariously through talking to military folks. Plus, I like MRE's! The big guy that wears the burgandy sweatshirt, a major I think, that shoots with us periodically is good folks. He shot with our relay the match before this. Likes to shoot on the bare ground without a mat.

If the mirage is very prominent, I can use it. If it is barely visible, I have a hard time picking up switches.

Just watched the debate........

I don't know who makes me want to hurl my evening bowl of Cherrios the most, Kerry or Clinton. Both are totally repugnant individuals. I think POTUS whooped his ass tonight but I still fear the election.

Time to go to bed, early day at the salt mines tomorrow. Finished up teaching a class of new Hazmat Operations babies today. Start a new class for Technician babies next week. They are lucking out, supposed to be cooler weather for for strolling around with an SCBA and suit next week. Not fair, not fair at all.

Night all

Bolt
Wind challenged....., NC, - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 03:52:05 (ZULU)

Bolt: What you giving ME accolades for ?

brian k. sain
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 04:32:50 (ZULU)

Back in NM after shooting F-class nationals. Finally got to meet Bolt, SteveS, and WR Moore; enjoyed chatting with you guys and can not wait to shoot with you again!

Ride home was almost tolerable as my shooting buddy from Albuquerque finished 4th overall. I had some problems and came in 29th overall.

I did finish first for the second "match" at 600 with a 149-9X on the small targets at 600 yards; was all down hill from there. ;-)~

While I did not place as well as I would have liked, I did learn a lot from shooting out east. Grass is much different to shoot off of then the dirt berms more common out west. Mirage is significantly more pronounced with lower altitudes and higher humidity; good spotting scoped is needed to be able to read mirage/wind.

Bolt,

Stick with the 175s, higher BC bullet will win out against lower BC/faster MV. I've argued this several times and proved it to myself many other times. I'll try to find the data or run the calculation on a ballistics program but since the 155 has lower BC, TOF is probably the same or longer with 155 as it bleeds off speed faster. I stopped by JLK bullets on the way home, great guy and makes a wonderful bullet. Load 175 or 190 VLD bullets from JLK for F-class shooting, will beat either the 155 or 175 from Sierra. Lapua brass, CCI BR2, RL-15 (44.5 to 46.0 gr depending on your barrel) or Varget (43.5 to 45.0 gr depending on your barrel) should push a 175 JLK to 2750 - 2780 fps out of your HBV. I was able to push 190 JLKs to about 2600 fps with 43.0 +/- 0.5 gr of Varget

Mirage on Saturday was pretty subtle, really needed a spotting scope to be able to pick up the changes. I could see the mirage (8-32 NightForce NXS @ 32X) but the field of view was not wide enough to really read what was going on. Looking through a Kowa 821 with 27X LER, relay after I shot, made seeing the mirage much easier. Try to avoid shooting in a boil, usually will start running again in a few seconds so no rush. I found that red flag to right of impact at 1K gave me very useful information; let me know which side of X ring to hold off on. Tried to wait until the mirage and the red flag at 1K were going in same direction. Make sure flags at 2, 3, and 600 were about same as last shot, check flag at 1K, and ribbon on tripod set to my left; make adjustments as neccessary and send it down range! I'll share all of my limited knowledge next time we get to shoot together! LOL Should take all of a couple of minutes!

SteveS,

Had a great time chatting with you! Hope to see you at next years F-class championship.

Local shooter here has me talked into trying a tactical match in TX later this month. I'm looking forward to the challenges of shooting without getting sighters!! Going to be a different game, that is for sure!!

I've gotta get some sleep, the drive back to NM from NC has me pretty worn out.

FCS

FCS
Central , NM, USA - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 05:21:13 (ZULU)

OK Guys stand down Mike in Texas is a good guy and we all have to be able to laugh at ourselfs once in awhile. Damm I remeber standing in the middle of one big as..d civil disorder (Read Riot) and wishing aloud for an airstrike that would take all of us out. MY partner responded "Urban Renewal" himself.

Rick I am just about sick after tonights debate. Damm Kerry is the biggest liar I have ever met. Makes my ex wife seem like a Saint! I watched Bush look at Kerry a few times like he could not believe how big a lie the guy was telling. Un freakin believeable. Worse is some just bairly bright enough to push the button voter is buying it. Damm Damm Damm. God save our country!

You here that crap he is going to double the number of Special Forces? Does he know how much ot costs to train one SF Trooper? I am for it but really he has no plan to pay for it or to do it. It was just a cheap attempt to buy a few soldiers votes.

Damm off to bed to pray for Bush to get ion again.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 06:15:12 (ZULU)

Bi pods- Other than whats already been hit on maybe a spring dampener of some sort. One of mine makes this loud spinging "bawang" sound when I open and close it.

Joe M.- Brownells seems fair on the Wilsons with the armorer discount. About $21.00 for the 7 rounders I think. I'm sure you have a connection with the discount already...if not feel free to let me take care of it. Have you checked out the Novak mags like the Sig GSR comes with? I've haven't had a chance to try them yet but I think they are a little less $.

Jon B- How goes it? Did that shotgun mount hold up? I think I might actually get to Germany for the IWA show in March you going to be there?

Pete L- Hope you're in Paris right now (wink wink) It looks like Gaby may actully let me have a kitchen pass in March so...you driving from Frankfurt? Oh by the way forget my question about the 6.5 Swede...answered it myself with a big fat "nope". It's too long.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Cali, US of A - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 13:25:38 (ZULU)

All: Missed the debate due to roll call tonight. Heard some of it later while on the road. Just about wrecked the patrol car. Amazing stuff someone can lie about.

The patch collection and board for Louann is progressing. Getting a few more patches and will close out the collecting in about three weeks. Have one good soul who may be able to personally deliver it to her when all is done. Will e-mail pics of the completed frames and patches to anyone interested. Guessing all ready in about four weeks.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 13:28:43 (ZULU)

Boltster; I went through the same thing last Saturday with the wind that wasn't there but was. Maybe FCS has something about not shooting in a boil. I think the 1k just keeps us all from thinking we know how to shoot. I keep hearing to check the wind at the target by focusing there and reading the mirage but it seems to me the wind at mid range is more influence since it's where the bullet is highest and the wind movement usually the greatest. I'm going to try putting flagging at 20' on some power poles on my range out here and then some at 10' and 2' just to see what's happening. Doubt I'll learn much but we will see. Since it's higher than where your shooting and there's nothing there it's hard to even estimate whats going on there unless you can flag 20' high.

I have a hard time telling the difference in wind from bullet to bullet but I think the best bullet right now is the 178 A-max by Hornady. Coef. is high and weight is about right for most .308 twists. However the 300 SAUM likes it even better for some strange reason. Speeds of 2950 or so seem adequate. My shooting partner was using a 7mm SAUM and the wind seems about 3" less at 1K for the 162 at about the same speed. It's a matter of bal coef. if you ask me but if you ask the manuf. you get some run around as to the accuracy of their figures. Sierra says their 168 match king is about .457 or something like that. Since they are the only one that lists different Bal coef. for different speeds I fear there's something I don't get about their ratings so I'm not bad mouthing them just observing . My figure for it is more like .495 with muzzle velocity around 2800-2900. Strangely enough Hornady rates their 168 at .495. My shooting records indicate that is very close to the MK. But the A-max is much better.

Another thing that slips up on me from time to time is velocity spread due to powder variations. Even spread from session to session is a worrysome thing. I've even taken to using some magnum primers to lessen that effect a little. We've taken to shooting over a Chrono to be sure we aren't getting some slow flyers for practice sessions. If you get on the ballistics program you can see what that does to your vertical groups. Barometer is also a prominent factor but doesn't change quickly so that's not going to be your problem with what you mentioned. MY .308 varies about 5fps but the Saum goes 20 or more. Other factors aside the Tikka is very close in group size to the SAUM. but the wind factor is harder to figure in the gusty winds that are ever present here. I've about decided a human torso target at 1K is about the best I can do with my equipment. There will be a few misses even at that. I think few Snipers in other than battlefield sniping actually shoot more than about 400 if there has to be a sure hit. Most people can walk a round on target with a good spotter on the 2nd or 3rd round at farther distances but targets have a tendency to move after the first one.

Brogers
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 14:48:28 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Welcome to the world of long range shooting. If it was easy then everyone would be doing it!!(HA) I shoot in wind most of the time where I live so I get a lot of practice. Good wind calling comes from shooting in it a lot!!!

I have found over the years that the worst wind to shoot in is a "No Wind" becuse no matter what you think there is a wind down range somewhere. I have waited an got up at O-dark thirty to go shoot so I could beat the wind an try to get some grouping in at 800 to 1000yds. What I found was that the wind is the worst to judge when its just coming on line.

I hate tail an head winds because they will push your bullets all over the place. Give me a good left or right full value wind any day. I call those nasty head an tail winds "Fish tailing" winds because thats what they do. You can chase bullets all over the paper trying to correct for them.

I don't use range flags I just read the wind where I am an watch the mirage down range an then use the "SWAG" (Scientific wild ass guess) method to dial in my wind. I used to joke that once I went to the 6.5s my wind calling got a lot better, an they did, but its because of the better flying bullets not my wind calling skills.

A perfect example of this is this last weekend I went back to Iowa an shot with my son. He shoots the 6-250 an I was shooting my 308. We were shooting at steel plates at 400 to 700yds. I was doing fine until the last two plates at around 660 to 700+ yds. I could not tell where I was shooting but kept missing them. We had checked the wind an only had a 2-3mph quarting wind. However by the time we got to the longer targets the wind had changed an was now blowing nearly full value an had jumped to around 5mph. (For me this is like a no wind from shooting in South Dakota).

He was having no trouble hitting them with his gun but I was missing. When we rechecked the wind an discovered the problem I said lets leave the dials as is an put them on paper. I was shooting about 4" off the target to the right. He however was still hitting along the right side of the target. Thats why the better flying bullets make us better shots an wind callers!!!

Another thing on your high an low rounds, could be your loads. You may have some brass thats not right or your loads may be off a little an showing up in verticle stringing. If its only a round off once in a while out of a normally good group then I would say, if you know it wasn't you, it may have been the load an thats just the luck of the draw in shooting. Hang in there its a great feeling to pound them in there at 1000yds!!!!

Pat
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 15:19:02 (ZULU)

FCS,

You might want to take another look at the 155 grain Laupa scenar in .308 .... Running about 2875 out of a 24" stick, it beats the daylights out of the 175 sierra at ~2700. George Gardner was the first I saw posting on this pill a good while back. My testing confirms his finding.

Mike Miller - My message in response to "urban renewal" was simple....We are all Americans and we are all in this together. I recieved an email from Mike in Texas which was well thought out and reasonable... neither one of us feels we need to amend our previous comments on the DR, which is fine with me.... it's about time those country boys quit with all that nicey-nicey PC crap for a change <g>

medicjim
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 15:42:20 (ZULU)

The best method I've come up with for beating windage problems is to sacrifice a live chicken and sprinkle the blood on the windage knob. I started shooting NM, Service rifle, and now the scoped rifles at long range, for 9 years now, and dang it if'n I'm not the slowest of God's creatures to learn one little thing! I have found that having a good, and I mean GOOD, spotter on a spotting scope can mean the difference between a hit and a miss at long range. I just gotta figure how to make room for one in my ruck....

On bipods. Got a chance to look at a new one up at Badlands last week. Won't tell you who makes it yet, but it seems to have some promise. Didn't like it, at first, 'cuz I use Harris bipods, but after farting around with it out in the field and under various conditions, I might have to make the switch. A LOT more versatile and maneuverable. And no "Sproing!" when you flip the legs back up.

Didn't get to watch the debates, but cought most of it on the radio. Kerry sounded like he usually does, and it's amazing how fast he can switch positions in mid-sentence. When Clinton was elected, I was aprehensive, but figured the Republic would survive. If Kerry wins, I fear for our Republic, folks. God preserve us.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 17:11:11 (ZULU)

Raffle --- real special one coming up ---- considering the events of the past few weeks.... More to follow.....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 18:00:35 (ZULU)

Joe M, will try. I think I ran into some of your guys the other day, was busy doing something else or I'd have said "hello".

The troops here are more than willing to commit the time needed to do the job right, and we're aware of the problems of convincing the natives of this fact. We're right about at the tipping point, where we kick the assholes out of an area and the IP's/ICDC can hold the pacified area against reinfestation. We keep the IP/ICDC guys free of infiltrators and keep them from falling into the old power abusing ways and we're home free. Kerry would prevent this from happening cause he's an idiot. Gotta go. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 18:36:28 (ZULU)

Mike Miller:

My wife picked up on the doubling of SF, saying, "We could barely field 3d Group from a pool of 780,000 soldiers; how in the hell will he double it from a pool of half that size? He'd have to make the standards alot less..." I was thinking, that is exactly what he'd do to even try his scheme. Heheh. I can see it now: A special jump command for the truly "special" forces "IN BOARD PERSONS OF ALL GENDERS AND SEXUAL ORIENTATIONS (PLEASE)STAND UP, except those who elected to jump their wheelchairs or without legs and/ or prosthetic devices...HOOK UP, please assist the differently abled in this complex task once you successfully accomplished it yourself...CHECK STATIC LINE, and assists those who desire assisted suicide in unhooking theirs at this time....CHECK EQUIPMENT, only if not offended by this rude allusion to the male member, those who are now offended please see the ACLU Officer at the forward portion of the aircraft to file your complaints...SIGN-LANGUAGE OFF FOR EQUIPMENT CHECK...ROLL, IN THE DOOR!

Yeah, standards would go out the window...but it would put the special in the forces, eh?

Damn idiot. You know who...

BTW, what happens to the ghost teams now on the books? I'd say we need to look at filling what we have first...but hey, whadda I know?

Damned wind. It does no good to worry about wind on my range. I have a 180 degree shift from bench to target due to the bowl-shaped valley. Bullets start real-real fast, and wind ain't hitting it long enough to affect...then they start to slow, where Mr. Wind gets on it a bit longer. Wind speeds up, wind slows down. Lalalala....excuse me, I lapsed again...

It all is a conspiracy by leftists who failed to grab my guns in the last legislative session! If they can't keep me from owning guns, they will drive me crazy with my guns. They're using hot air, cold air, all the air! They talk talk talk about crime, menaces, polite society--all designed to "move" this air! Enemies of the second ammendment talked up an evil wind! Hahahahahahahaha....

See, it worked...I'm as loony as a toon; thus proving wind effects on accuracy is caused by anti-gun blowhards!

Heheh. I learned that trick by watching Kerry last night...you really can be absurd and prove it true if you try!

Freakin' Frisbee idea is genius! The bipod always seems to take recoil rather poorly (jump up is more like it). I wondered what kind of stresses we deal with and what is the failure point (studs, legs, rivets?).

Morris, email enroute!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 19:03:51 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Did you get my D/R e-mail? I know that sometimes the gremlins eat them. ;o) The only address I presently have for you is the one in the sandbox.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 19:55:30 (ZULU)

Ken H;

E-mail sent.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 21:52:09 (ZULU)

Doc: Got it and replied.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 21:57:47 (ZULU)

Doc King, the eagle has landed, send the re inforcements straight away.. thanks buddy.

Joe S, not in Paris yet buddy, i'm just taking it day for day and giving space to heal. I will pick you up in FFurt and drive you to Nurnberg, that should be a great trip.. looking forward to it..

Watched an interesting documentary on the history channel yesterday about bullets. Went into the woods after last nights early finnish to night shift, the buggers are off the feeders and on to the mast crop, acorns etc, hardest time of year to get a pig,, damn,,.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 22:14:38 (ZULU)

Well guys let me refrain from any political comments from both the presidential debates and the worldwide situations that trouble our planet. After all it is the start of the holy season for the kamakazi practitioners of the religon for peace. We all must make sacrafices and pray for the UN deligates who administer the "Oil for food program", after all look what/who benefits. We must trust the judgement of the aids infested, dictator, communist third world country leaders who have no other recourse than comment on how we handle our affairs. Hell we vote in a few weeks... Hoooooaaa!!

Joe M. I didn't know you were active SF. De Oppresso Liber!!

I have been working on the M4 project lately because the Elmer Fudd rifle remains the weapon of choice. I am playing with a 14.5 1/7 twist barrel and it seems to like 69gr w/748 powder and Fed 205m primers. About an 1" at 100, 4-5 at 300. Any suggestions for 69. 72, 75, 80s using similiar combo's?

Nother question. Next weel is probably the only thing in NJ that draws a few folks from the sites. Any one attending the Cherry Hill shoot?

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 00:19:27 (ZULU)

Oh!! I realize there were some spelling errors, but when I go back to edit them, I'm told I'm an imposter!! Hey if that's all that I'm called, I'm good to go..

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 00:24:06 (ZULU)

Joe M.......

Sain wouldn't take credit for the Frisbee thingie so now I can't remember who posted it on what site. Oh well, getting old and senile. BUT, the Tupperware lid that I have been using here lately really works. A Frisbee or anything similar should work just as well. It honestly feels like you are shooting off a rest. Rifle comes straight back into your shoulder and doesn't buck up. I am able to stay right on target with very little rifle adjustment. I think what causes bucking up with standard pod feet is that they catch in the grass or whatever and hang up. The recoil can't go straight back so it goes up. Equal and opposite reaction deflected?

I thought of another thing that might affect stuff while I was daydreaming in a meeting today. I have been shooting off a rear bag with both rifles. The PSS has an A5 on it, the HBV has the standard stock with a stock pad. The stock pad has straps that hold it to the stock. The straps may be hanging up on the bag also. Just a theory to test.

TonyY......

Over on AR15.com there is a group buy going on for chrome lined, 1/7 twist, 16" barrels with M4 ramps. The price shipped is $240. I am impressed by your readings with your 14.5" though and may reconsider.

Riffle raffle.......

Cant' wait to contribute to someone else's happiness again!!! What's this make the 5th or so raffle we've had? They just get betterer and betterer.

Yote.......

You know, I got to thinking about my loads. This was the first time that I had shot my own reloads at that range. Any mistakes made while I was testing at 100 and 200 would have really shown up at 1000. I don't think my neck tension is right after talking to several knowledgable shooters last weekend. The average opinion was that instead of using a bushing .002-.003 less, they use something around .005 less. I'm also going to pull my expander ball out and work the necks down in .005 increments like the nice man at Redding advised me. The brass on these Winchester necks is mighty thin compared to the Lapua and Federal brass that I have and most of the folks that I talked to couldn't relate to a .333 loaded neck size. I've been using a .331 bushing. Plus, the nut behing the trigger probably busted a few shots, but I rarely have a miss especially after I get on target. Like you said, can't hit em all all the time, wouldn't be fun!

FCS.......

Great meeting you also. Some really fine shooters in your neck of the woods. I spent more time this match behind a spotting scope than I have all year. I was trying to put what Jim Owens told me together but I had information overload. He really pushes watching and finding the constants. Such at which direction the flags fly the majority of the time, the mirage direction the majority of the time, etc. I almost had it when the wind was evident, but when the wind went away I just couldn't find anything to hang my hat on. I did think that the wind closest to the muzzle was a large factor. I took a piece of string and tied it to an OBI and stuck it in the ground just to the left of my muzzle. I watched that sucker for every shot and by grannies, I would look up from a bad shot and the little piece of string was in a different direction within a split second after I shot. I have determined that the only magic formula is to shoot every match I can financially afford to shoot and get as much trigger time in varying conditions that I can.

I've got enough cash lined up to shoot the 600 yard weekend coming up on 10/23. After that I am going to devote myself to hitting the loading bench, learning my chrono and being at the local range as much as possible. I was really proud of my reloads and they can only get better with tweeking.

Another bad day at work, another long post to calm me....Bolt out!

Bolt
Wind challenged....., NC, - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 02:14:12 (ZULU)

Ok so I get off work this morning and head to the range just to get a couple rifles on the paper with new scopes...I get there and we're having Santa Ana winds at the range. Gusts up to 25-30MPH with so much dust it's hard to see the targets. So I look at my .223 with 55 grainers and my .17 HMR and give it a try. Long story short I

had and early lunch =(

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Cali, US of A - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 02:18:54 (ZULU)

Tony; when you mess up your spelling the computer thinks your a Democrat and starts to question your sanity.

Let's give equal time to those present who are voting for Kerry.... That didn't take long. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

My take is that anyone with half a brain can pick out the best man. In this country these days, that worries me terribly.

Try to pick up a copy of the constitution. I'm sure that will be valuable in 4 years if Kerry gets in.

If you believe the polls, you may be in danger of voting for General Kerry.

JOe M. thanks for filling the blanks, I just wanted you to respond to that for the folks out in Never Never CaliFornica.

Brogers
Friday, October 15, 2004, at 02:22:24 (ZULU)

When one slowly opens and closes Harris bipod legs they do not sproing.

Just 2 from the peanut gallery.

brian k. sain
Friday, October 15, 2004, at 02:30:25 (ZULU)

medicjim,

I have to admit that I've never shot either the sierra or lapua 155s, have heard a fair amount of good things about the lapua 155s however. I had shot 175 or 168 SMKs but when I got into F-class I switched to 175 JLKs. I'm not sure of the BC for the lapua 155 but the 175 JLK is .545 and I was able to push them at 2780fps. I might have to get a box of the 155 lapuas to test. How far out have you shot the 155 lapua?

Bolt,

If you are going to use a comp. bushing neck sizer you might want to start turning the necks just enough to make the neck thickness uniform. Dink and I have noticed that with the bushing dies you will get uneven bullet pull if the neck thickness is not uniform. I've been very happy with the K&M neck turning tool.

Cheapest to buy the best bullets you can: JLK, Berger, and Lapua. I use to cull my 175 SMKs and the core group will be as good as the JLKs but there is always a flier or two in that 15 round group; JLK group does not have the fliers. I'll admit that for the tactical match I'm going to go shoot end of October, I'll be using the 175 SMK. Do not expect to require the same level of accuracy for that match as for F-class. Might be eating those words in a few weeks!

Glad you mentioned the frisbee thing, going to have to try that this weekend when I try switching gears from F-class to tactical.

FCS
Central , NM, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 03:12:34 (ZULU)

Tony, if you're working with a mousegun you need to float the barrel. We have a prototype M4 Designated Marksman Carbine we've made up for the 82nd that puts ten 77-grainers in a 3-inch circle at 300 meters, each still retaining 2,000 fps at the target.

18 inch fluted stainless match barrel, free-float rail system, match trigger. 6.9 pounds.

sinister
Friday, October 15, 2004, at 03:29:59 (ZULU)

Rifle Raffle

"considering the events of the past few weeks"

Does that mean that civilans from California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York ain't gonna be able to play this time?

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 03:51:11 (ZULU)

BKS- "When one slowly opens and closes Harris bipod legs they do not sproing"

BKS...this is very contrary to my carefully honed image of a complete spaz. Ooooooh Yeah, chicks dig me =)

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Cali, US of A - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 04:18:18 (ZULU)

Sinister

Is that a 7 or 8.5 twist??

Thanks

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 04:24:07 (ZULU)

Brogers and all SC: I apoligize. Hell I'm not against Kerry nor am I really for Bush. I see it as I am compelled with my heart to vote for the one who is for My America. Kerry is a traitor to military personnel, period. Screw the BULL.. Anyone who speaks against all the Americans who fight for my freedom, both during VN and now, Up yours.... Don't care, F U... Anyone to me who tries to demoralize the people, by saying you have no right or obligation to be there, plain sucks, period. To me certain things like money never come into play with war. As Americans we find a way to support our people and always should do so...

Any conflict sucks, you're scared and you can't image the things you see or might incounter next. Shit really hits the fan. Deal with it or learn to deal with it. Training matters. Wish I had more..

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 04:55:17 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just done cleaning my .35 Whelan AI and .284 Winch Mexlicher. Had tested loads and sighted in for hunting next week. We're two weeks into the season and I haven't gone out yet for Blacktails. Elk season is a month off and I'll only be able to hunt two days of the second season. Oh, well. Cougar and bear season go until spring! Of course varmits abound. Fox, coyote, nutria, crows, etc. are numerous.

Undude and all. Am in the same state you are after the debates...incredulous over JFK's performance. He's a lying, cheating, traitorous bastard and that's giving him the benefit of the doubt. What is scarey is that his own party is buying the crap. No morals...all is OK if you meet your objective. Wonder what they'll do when they get "there". Kinda like; "She said yes, now what do I do?"

Wonder what Kerry's reaction will be when middle America gives him the finger? Probably call in U.N. peacekeepers to "protect". the populace from "terrorists". That's a label I'd proudly wear, if I can cut the bastards head off...

Think you saw panic buying when Clinton took office? You haven't seen anything yet!!!

All for now...my mind is going over the scenario's from Unintended Consequenses and I'm getting scarred for my country.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 06:08:54 (ZULU)

Now ... That's not to say that I haven't had a few sets of legs sproing open for me ... but I digress.

brian k. sain
Friday, October 15, 2004, at 13:09:58 (ZULU)

Brian:

If they go "SPROING" when they open, beware. That's one place you don't want any blood blisters.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 16:29:42 (ZULU)

TonyY – Well said!

Wes – I hope you are right about Kerry getting the finger from Middle America. It’s hard to tell in the People’s Republic of MD, but there is a full court press going on all over the country by the liberals to get this guy in office, no matter how bad his record.

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 16:56:55 (ZULU)

It was good meeting Bolt, Moore, FCS and others at Bunter. Glad that FCS made the long haul home safely. It will be nice to shoot with you guys. I spoke to the guys with the US gov. plates. They were from the Special Warfare Center School, Weapons branch, said they instructed. Said that they came out to get time shooting, which they say they cant get enough at Bragg. One headed out to Al. right after the match end on sunday to catch a precision shooting class at some LE training being put on by NRA. One guy was shooting an AR10 (308), and they Had AIs on the mat.

Bolt, I will catch up with you on 10/23 unless unforeseen things happen. I'll be shooting the saturday match, but not sure of the sunday one. The mrs. is thinking of catching the state fair before it ends. :-(

As far as shooting on grass with bipod..... I use a small piece of plexi-glass (dulled down)....works fine. ;-). Also keeps the legs from diggin in a sandy surface. Its part of my shooting kit. Make sure you curl the edges slightly, heat in an over will do the trick.

SteveS
Ft. Bragg AO, NC, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 17:39:43 (ZULU)

TonyY: I'm actually trying to be an aviation-type; but my past keeps coming back and diverting me. Not that I'm complaining. Years ago, I went aviation for an adreneline rush without the deployment schedule as a single dad. Then, I found I miss SOCOM deeply while not being happy as a FG aviator (not flying much at all anyore). The little odd-jobs in SF are a nice diversion---but it is no longer my branch of record. So call me "part time" SF...hell, it is far better than nothing.

Ken M: Those dudesare "FOB 51" while I was FOB 52--just for reference in conversation. The Fella I gave ya will be leaving real soon. But, if you can travel to RPC south, you'll find any help you ask for. Ranges included. But the intel will be eye-opening.

Have I mentioned lately "it's good to be home" ???

Well it is good....but: I am constantly detuning "attitude" all the while missing the rush of total alertness all the time. As I de-tune, I realize that the condition high yellow/ red lifestyle became "easy." It just was, ya know? Turning it off is hard, and so is not living it. Shit, the wife would snap my neck if I go back any time soon...and my kids are still trumping any such idea.

Anyone got any thoughts?

I think I get it now--why some did multiple tours in the 'Nam. I used to wonder about them...but now I know that they weren't sociopaths...maybe adreneline junkies, but not crazy. The rush is adictive.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
North of, most everything, center mass, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 19:06:29 (ZULU)

Joe M,

You cant expect to detune fast. Took you sometime to get tuned in that way. As far a Adrennilin junky.... try down hill skiing! The steeper the better and the faster the better! ;-)

SteveS
Ft. Bragg AO, NC, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 19:40:10 (ZULU)

Sinister -

What rail system are you using? Are the barrels 7-twist? Chrome lined? Stainless match?

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 20:43:08 (ZULU)

Joe I know what you mean when you talk flying. I have a fixed wing multi instrument rating but I haven't been behind the stick for years. I doubt if I would pass the eye exam these days especially in low light conditions. I'd love to do that and a HALO jump again but if something happened my wife would probably piss on my grave when the insurance company doesn't pay off.

LTC my version of the M4 has a 14.5" LMT 1/7 barrel with a quad Yankee Hill free float rail system, Eotech 551, and a backup flip up rear sight. The lower has a Vltor carbine clubfoot stock, tangodown grips, ambi selector and right now a standard trigger. I have a Chip McCormick 2 stage on order but there scarce right now. I expect the trigger will make a difference once installed.

What sling type and mounting options do these DM M4s use? I've tried and looked at some of these CQB, quick release, yada yada things and they just have too many parts for me. What ever happened to a piece of suspension line? That's all we ever used on an M16 unless you were in a parade or being inspected. It's light, quiet and goes wherever you tie it. After awhile you braid the strands and it looked like a custom made job.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 21:46:46 (ZULU)

Pete the Robot,

Oi!! I don't know where you live accurately, as in I've never seen yoor hoose..but I wouldn't mind putting a tony lama up your jacksie...stick with your'e employee mates, at least you can send them to the moon...Well, how do I explain, YOU MAKE BAD SPY, cheese oder ham...Keep the light flickerin, you're too wise to be dumbed doon by a broad or the effects. So why do you think you need to suffer?

Andrew,

have you touched base with Otto? If we gotta switch gears than better get on it eh..touch base though eh..

Sinster,

You make it sound so appealing, that is pretty kick ass, keep it clickin....I still gotta get doon your way, to the cellar.....Ya'll can throw 10 rounds in a 3" circle at 1K with the 338 lapua, and we don't hear much there..

MedicJim,

Hey, first time 155 scenars ran true here were Lito's tests...

JR
Langholm, Scotland, just east of MY island - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 22:46:15 (ZULU)

Gents,

Politics country: I firmly believe that we have a real battle to fight domestically. It is fought in the taverns, the workplace, and the home, and the contestants are our neighbors, our co-workers, out families, and our friends. It really appears to me that roughly half of Americans truly believe it is the government's job to provide healthcare and decent paying jobs. IMO, we have the right to pursue opportunities for these things, and certainly to do it without government intereference. But in the end it is up to us to provide for ourselves. When around half of "the people" directly expecting the government to provide good jobs, free healthcare, and prescription drugs, it is my opinion that the true American philosophy and way of life is in deep shit. After all, Kerry wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the fact that lots of our own people are eating his shit up. We are already asshole deep in socialist crap, and education/promotion on the home front about the principles this country was founded on is what is needed to turn the tide on the political front.

In the meantime, packing for a two day tactical carbine class/FTX. It's cold and raining....go figure!

Joe: I am staying in WD, will call Sat. PM to link up.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 22:58:22 (ZULU)

I was sent 2 interesting articles that formed even more of a picture of the Islamic mindset, and why Americans are not well regarded in many places abroad.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15464

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15545

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, U.S.A., - Friday, October 15, 2004, at 23:42:23 (ZULU)

Hogs - raffle announcement -

Ok - Have been chatting with LouAnn Robinson quite abit in the past few days. She would like to raffle Bruce's Chandler Sniper Rifle. The funds will go directly to LouAnn herself (less paypal charges, etc). LouAnn would very much like to have that rifle go to one of our fine hawgs our there in SniperCountry land.

That rifle will come complete with the pelican case, etc - the whole nine yards. Also included is a drag bag. That rifle is practically new - I think 100rds or less. I will get the actual count.

Anyhow - we're getting pictures together, building the raffle site, and will probably turn it on next week. Ticket price will be 25.00 as done in the past. Max tickets to be sold is set to 250 - that's it. I will give plenty notice, and as you know - the detailed spec's will be on the raffle site.

More to follow - stay tuned.....

GodBless,

Ken :)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 00:56:44 (ZULU)

Joe M - email sent via the roster..no attachements

TonyY... based on a tip from Sinister, I had White Oak Precision hand tune an RRA trigger for my AR.... he sent it to me in a zip log bag... I dropped it in and "vwalla"..instant perfection.

JR - I appreciate the update on the 155s... all I was clear on was my late arrival to the round..

medicjim
Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 01:39:09 (ZULU)

medicjim: If you went for the Rock River trigger you can't go wrong. I decided on a Chip McCormick because it's a self contained drop in module. Kind of like attaching an M14 trigger group. I've heard good things about them from a Navy Seal friend and others, so I would imagine with a lot of salt water time the things keep ticking. I hate cleaning things so self contained works for me. Ain't nothing like a good side by side or over n under, 2 pieces and a chunk of wood and your done.

It's amazing how a cheap government M4 can have 10K worth of gadgets mounted on them. Lazers, night sights, supressors. Even the inventory control chip. What ever happened to having to read every serial number in the weapons room and then double checking? Today you wave a wand and everything is accounted for. Technology...Hoooahh

You going to Cherry Hill this year? I'm going to shoot my so called Elmer Fudd rifle. I took it to the SMTC match with only around 400 rds through it, never fired it past 300, did one day of practice and recording in the log book, and nailed every target first round. Pac Nor makes a fine shortie barrel. And using that el cheapo inconsistant Rem Brass for long range? My my. I'll buy 500 pieces to your 100 pieces and what you see is what you get. Elmers a keeper...

Hey loved to hear from all on the slingee things for the M4. After all I won a carbine course at the SMTC match so I have to prepare...

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 03:02:06 (ZULU)

SteveS on Harris bipod "carpet":

What are the dimensions of the small piece of plexi-glass that you use, and what is the spacing on the feet on the bipod that you use?

Thanks

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 04:27:11 (ZULU)

Ken, any chance of us 'veteran' raffle enterers getting first dibs on the tickets?

Rehersal dinner tonight, wedding tomorrow, grandbaby for the next 6 days whilst parents honeymoon. If life was as good as work as it is at home, I'd be a happy camper.

Already worn out.....Bolt out!

Bolt
Wind challenged....., NC, - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 04:29:02 (ZULU)

Hogs, anyone who is planning to attend Badlands Phase 2 in a few weeks (early November) please send me an email via the roster here, would like to chat with you.

Keith and I will be looking forward to seeing faces old and new!

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, U.S.A., - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 11:40:24 (ZULU)

Bolt - all - raffle -

Don't worry "old timer" - all you hawgs willl get a good shot at this one.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 12:07:06 (ZULU)

Barry Moreland and any other Tikka T3 owners. We have a T3 in work which is to be packaged and returned to the dealer first thing on monday. The boss says all T3s are being recalled by the UK distributor (GMK). My boss didn't know why, but JR mentioned to me a busted barrel the other week, but I thought that was a Sako! JR? Just a heads up.

Joe S, good to hear from you pal. Great news if you can make it over for Nurenberg. I envisage a lot of laughs. The scope rail is holding up so far, if not entirely square. Can see I will end up putting a fixed rail on eventually, but it works for now.

John Leveron.

Interesting articles. Particularly the one from an American in London. As a Brit, working among Brits, who watches Brit TV (but doesn't read many papers - especially The Guardian) I would have to disagree with the article. There is a great under current of anti-moslem feeling, and it is growing. The media is trying to play it down by ignoring it. But even that has not degenerated into open widespread, acts of public hatred. The media here is largely left wing biased and I wouldn't take the rantings of papers like The Guardian as a litmus for Brit feeling, which seemed to be the article writer's main piece of evidnce. Its readers are those sandle wearing anti-capitalist, hippie types left over from the 60's and 70's and we know how they love to burn flags.

Talking flags. Went past a hotel yesterday and was most annoyed by the flags they were flying. There was a Union Jack, a St.George's Cross, a St.Andrew's Cross, even a Stars and Stripes! - but NO Welsh Dragon. I didn't see any kind of crowd outside trying to take the S&S down for a burning session. But there may be a small Welsh contingent there next week burning the hotel down ;-)

Like wise I don't see or hear any disquiet about Jews or a rise in anti-semitism. I do not agree with the way Israel is being handled by the west and I see Israel/Palestine as the number one cause of the rise in muslim fundamentalism and the anti-western problems both our nations face today - BUT that is not the same as being anti-semitic. The article smacks to me of someone wishing to drive a wedge between the US and UK because many in the UK don't agree with Israeli policies - and the writer doesn't like it! I would be absolutely astonished if an entire bus load of everyday Brits rose up to humiliate and abuse ANYBODY, American or otherwise. Yes there are fruitcakes, we've all seen them around busy city centres, but a whole bus full!?! - its just not British (unless they got on the local day-release bus by mistake taking the loons back to the asylum after a day out). I would be interested to hear JR's experiences as an American in the UK.

America has been the UK's best ally for nearly 100 years. There are strong cultural and blood links between our nations. As nations we may not always agree and our interests may lie contrary to each other, but I would hope as with any true friendship we can express differences without damaging our relationship (or is that too simplistic on a global political stage?).

Damn I said I wouldn't get political and here I go again.

Take care friends.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 12:38:26 (ZULU)

Hogs- all - site -

Gonna be working on websites this weekend....moving them acrosst the room to a newly built machine. SC is one of the harder ones to move. You may notice a period 'not available' or seeing but not being able to post.... bear with us.

Marius - you getting scared yet - LOL.....

you all can email me directly at:

ken-sc AT hunters DOT org

take care all....

ken hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - yes - Under God - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 13:19:49 (ZULU)

Tony - see you at Cherry Ridge... I'll be shooting an old rifle... I've been focusing more on improving the nut behind the butt lately

medicjim
Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 19:00:44 (ZULU)

Hope this works already...

Ken, yup, got me scared alright. Got onto the site, wanted to do the first registration and got a "No site configured for this address" or something. HUH?? Fortunately we seem to have contact again :-)

Hawgs,

tonight is the first time this week where I've really got the time to sit in front of the PC and not WORK. I should have posted on Sunday night already, but there just wasn't any time. Robert Martin back on the site already? I see he hasn't posted yet. Hey Robert, you finished skinning that giraffe yet? :-)

Had a wonderful weekend last weekend, despite some minor, ahem, difficulties. Robert had invited me to come hunting with him, and to bring somebody along if I wanted. Took Marnus (will be 10 on November 1) along. It is about 3 1/2 hours drive, with the last 60-70 on dirt roads. About 15-20km in on this dirt road I have a go look-see amongst the bushes with the car. She didn't like it - especially not the branch that went through the radiator, fan, air filter and electronic control box. Fortunately neither Marnus nor myself were hurt - other than my pride that is! And Marnus was very upset, since our weekend was now off - told him no way, we're still going to enjoy it! Trying to drive to see how far we can get (no cellphone reception - way back off anything) we get about another kilometer before she overheats. Fortunately we had just passed a bakkie (pickup for you guys) standing alongside the road and I turned back. Turns out to be the owner of the farm neighbouring the one we're going to hunt! So he towed us in.

As we came in one VERY worried Robert meets us - gladly all his worries were for nothing.

Saturday found us in the bush where we did a serious amount of walking - somewhere between 15 and 20 km of slow walking. Saw a couple of animals (impala, kudu, gemsbok, waterbuck, eland, ostrich, blue wildebeest, fox), but just couldn't get close enough to an impala for a shot. (I don't think the farmhand/guide was really interested, which didn't help either. Next time in that sort of circumstances I'll do a couple of things different.)

But, despite not having shot anything, it was still quite an enjoyable day out there, especially with having Marnus along on a hunt for the first time. After all, hunting is about being out there, not just walking out and killing something.

Sunday a truck from the work's (Ford South Africa) contract tow-in service arrive with a replacement vehicle on the back, and take out my crippled steed. Only thing, the idiots at work gave me an empty car - about 140km from the closest open fuel station! Fortunately the farm manager had some extra petrol in a can and we could take that over and get to town.

Before we left I shot Robert's latest toy - .458 Win Mag from Savage, complete with Acutrigger. Man, that brute is lighter than my 30-06! Robert's got a recoil pad on it, but it sure was pleasant to shoot. 1 shot a 100 yards off sticks, and then three offhand at fifty. But before the last one Robert went off and commented about me being, at that point in time, a better shot than him. Damn fool should have known to keep his trap shut! :-) Next shot, for whatever reason, I suddenly had a flinch, and pulled that shot high and wide! MAN!! Maybe that also explains my not too good shooting lately. Not sure where I got it, but now I know about it and have to work to get rid of it.

Enough for now. Now let me see whether this actually posts!

Marius
Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 23:01:54 (ZULU)

Jon I agree with you mostly, i can't see any anti Americanism to the extent of what that article focuses on, sounds like bull to me. Your average Brit probably thinks the war is about oil or money and only gives a f%$§" cos it puts 20% on the price of a litre of fuel, the ones who read and watch anything but one news program have a broarder view. Either way there is a growing anti muslim feeling among the white folk of the UK, and it won't take much to spill over into racial violence and rioting if you ask me, any terrorist attack on the UK would lead to retaliation on ethnic groups. Also, whilst you may not have encountered any anti semitism, i have always been aware of a strong distrust and dislike of jews apparent in and around the area i grew up, to me the one side is as bad as the other if we take the Israel / Palistine thing, don't forget the Israelis bombed British troops there in terrorist attacks, the leader of one of the terrorist groups became bloody prime minister or Israel, well i guess that gave the IRA a role model to go on.

I do lay the blame for much of the worlds un rest at America's support of the Israeli's, the biggest screw ups in the US foreign policy have to do with supporting israel, I'm sorry if i put anyones nose out with that, but its the way i see it and the way the folks back home see it inmy area, personaly i don't give a shit if the palestinians and the israeli's kill each other till there is no one left, so long as they do it on their own turf. If we condone or condemn either side, then we should be in there to sort it out like we are in Iraq and if we do that then its time we went into many parts of Africa and sorted them out too, you can't condemn palestinians killing Israeli kids and Israeli's killing palestinian kids unless you condemn all the other hell holes on this planet where one ethnic bunch is killing the hell out of the other, we either need to do something about them all, or leave well alone, now it seems to me we have started to do something about it, we can't then stop once Iraq and Afganistan is fixed, we then need to go to Palestine, Rhuanda, Ethiopia and a bunch of other African countries, we need to look in Asia, South America, the former USSR, we have a lot of world policing to do, we have started and we will probably have to spend the next century seeing it all through. Its gonna be a long haul.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 16, 2004, at 23:05:03 (ZULU)

re: Harris bipod sliders...

Besides the review on Sniper Country by Sarge, has anyone else evaluated the Pod Paw product by Zephyr Dynamics? Although more expensive than Frisbees or a piece of plastic, they would seem to be a quicker to deploy, more elegant solution to the same problem.

http://www.zephyrdc.com/index.php

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/PodPaw.asp

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 02:01:21 (ZULU)

Gents,

First and foremost, I thought those 2 articles were interesting, likewise especially the Yank in GB. I would also like to immediately make it clear I am not condemning the Brits in any way; I should have made that clear in the original post.

I have no idea how this woman about London presented herself, etc. There are usually at least 2 sides to every story. And while I don't doubt there is an under current of anti moslem feeling, I feel it is probably being withheld, because it is the conservative English that hold it. I think a very similar situation exists in the USA . . .

Not to offend, but I think many of us on both sides of the pond are somewhat out of touch with a growing minority of our own populaces. I know I am. It is very hard for me to fathom that someone could actually vote for Kerry here, but a significant portion of our populace will vote for him, I can assure you :( I think that he also epitomizes the "our fuel costs are increased" mentality, besides being a traitor.

The American media is almost exclusively left wing, of course. I can't speak to England, as I've only been a tourist there, and not recently. But I think psyop wise, if the average dog is fed the drivel our media and schools pump in them from day one, many of them will actually believe it. I think you know what I mean; revolutionaries always want to seize both of these important molding tools.

I do not know the Jewish ladies motivation, I hope it is not designed for wedging us. I would also to also hear from others. As to violence within our populaces, it has largely not happened in America, but could, I suppose, were the enemy lucky enough to detonate any form of nuke on our soil (I personally think they would in a heartbeat, if they could, which would mean they have little understanding for the fiber of Americans when really pushed; I expect the Brits are the same way!)

I also agree that the UK has been our staunchest ally in the last century. I also have great respect for the Aussies and Kiwis, who have not been afraid to go it with us in rough times. There are others of course, but these three rise easily to the top, merely in my personal opinion. Regardless of my opinion, it is meant with respect, and not designed to get folks noses out of joint.

As to France and Germany, well, quite frankly I feel that they felt it was not in their interests to oust Hussein from power. On people not liking Jews, not hard to find in much of America. I do not understand it, nor do I agree with it. I don't want to get into 1948 all over, but suffice it to say that I (personal opinion again here) believe Israel has a right to exist, and they need their own place. Historically, they've been shunned by pretty much everybody, and I really expect no one to look out for them, but them.

I can clearly see a distinction between the "Palestinians" (a made up word, in my book) and the Israelis. I see one side purposely targetting civilian women and kids, and the other working hard to NOT target those same folks. Do innocents get killed in war? Sure. The difference to me is that it is the avowed goal of one side, and not the goal of the other. Of course, it also makes it a lot simpler in my mind that the Israelis are shooting at people who have vowed to push them into the sea.

And to make it clear again, in my personal opinion, and in my limited experience in the middle east, we have no true allies there but the Israelis. I have zero trust for the Saudis, etc. based on my experience. Are there some good Saudis, etc. ? Undoubtedly, just like Piggie Pete's story of a former SS soldier. I think none of us had a choice of where we were born, etc. and if called to serve, most of the readership here would go serve, if it was their home land, whether their governments choices were good or ill.

I will agree with Jon and Pete on another thing also; the US is still sending mixed signals in the mideast. I think the purpose behind that is in trying to keep Israel from going nuclear, which I think they would do if they felt seriously threatened. I am of course all for using our own oil here, of which there is plenty if we'd but keep our greens from interfering with us getting it out of ground we own. (to them, it's lots better to buy it from countries that support and supply folks who are killing us, and our true allies, thean to despoil anything 'here'!)

I would also speculate that it is not the job of the US to be the world's policeman. I think we are in the current conflict not because it was a 'good thing to save the clidren of Afghanistan and Iraq' but because the US felt that those in charge of those countries were actively training and supplying folks that were trying to destroy us, and there were not many diplomatic problems with invading, unlike if we decided to try to topple the House of Saud. I think we felt it was in our best interests . . .

Unlike Rwanda, whom pretty much everybody ignored, as I think most folks felt there was little fallout over that, whichever faction won. Cold, perhaps, but like I said, merely my opinion. (standard disclaimer) I don't see the US, or pretty much any other nation getting involved anywhere unless they really think there is an upside for them.

Politics country, dang. And I really got too long winded there, ahh well. Like Jon said, take care friends!

John L

John Leveron
Mid-MO, U.S.A., U.S.A. - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 03:14:01 (ZULU)

Anti-Semitism

In a time long ago in a place far far away, I seem to remember something said in this big thick book. Can't quote it literally as I know some here can, but it went something like this: "And the lord said unto them, go forth for you are my chosen children, even so you will suffer many hardships". Sooo it might serve well to deliberate thoroughly before kicking sand on the Jews.

Bush Vs Kerry. Overheard a remark a day or so ago that might have merit. "Hell some one should write in Tommy Franks or Norman Swartzkoff for POTUS. Hmmmmmmm!

Just a thought

Vern

Vernon
Houston, TX , USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 04:28:44 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just a quick one. It's late and I just got home. Busy day with the miscreants...five fights to break up...that finished filling our Disciplinary Segregation Unit. Hope tomorrow is quiet.

Ready to hunt. Department just screwed that up. Assigned me to yearly training...all the touchy feely stuff the DOC upper echelon believes we should know to deal with our inmate population. Nothing on tactics, etc., except the annual weapons qualifications. Don't know how I'm supposed to teach the class AND qualify at the same time. Guess scheduling is going to clone me, so I can be in two places at once!

Salem PD's finest hour last night. Three teens (15/16) decided to rob the local K-Mart. Grabbed the proceeds and split. Officers searched for and found them about 7:00 PM. Cornered them in a field and one of the little bastards pulled a knife...the officer could have shot him, but instead "introduced" him to his partner. Partner happened to be about 90 pounds of German Shepherd! Got the little turd in the leg and shoulder. Required stitches, etc.

God, I love happy endings.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 08:20:06 (ZULU)

Sorry John, should have said that I didn't think there was any agenda on your part other than pointing out an interesting article. Also can relate to your point about being out of touch. I suppose like most folk I associate with general like minds and choose not to read/watch/listen to media I don't agree with. It can give a false impression of what 'the masses' are actually thinking.

Agree with you Pete, don't really care if the 2 sides do each other in and keep it between themselves - but they haven't and the West won't let them either. Other trouble spots will have little impact on us, but the Middle East does. Nukes have been mentioned and are a threat to us all. Anyone know where those 'missing' Soviet warheads have gone?

I did type reams of stuff, most of it I have more or less said before; but in brief the West can be accused of not dealing equally with all parties in the ME and this discrepancy is being used by Islamic Fundamentalists to turn even moderate Muslims against us. We need to look again at Israel/Palestine and give both parties a bloody good shake and be seen to be acting fairly without bias toward either side.

Vernon, there we go, bloody religion again. Beware mixing religion with politics. Conflict is the inevitable consequence and religious conflict just goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on....... get the picture! Difference between the 2 WWs and today's conflict on terror is religion had no part to play in WWI or II. Done and dusted. Christian vs. Jew vs. Muslim has been going on for 2000 years and rising. Time to remove the association (or even the perceived assocition) of religion with foriegn policy, politics and actions. You say the Jews are God's chosen people, the Muslims think they are, the Christians think they are. Each thinks they have the preordained right to fuck the other over. Not a good postition to start dealing from. If there is an embodiment of evil on the is planet I have no doubt it is organised religion.

As for Israel being the US's only true ally in the ME, don't confuse true allegiance with dependancy or convenience (same goes for Saudi).

Damn, politics again! Once I get my rifle back or the 260 project running I can return to shooting.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 14:27:54 (ZULU)

Jon,

This war aint Christians/Jews vs ANYONE. Its Muslim Extremests vs EVERYONE. Who started this stuff? Did a bunch of Baptists fly a plane into a mosque? Nope. Did we see a lot of Muslims going to Northern Ireland to mediate the situation there? Noooooooo. Christians worked with Christians.

When the Arabs/Muslims get control of thier own people then this stuff will die down. But they NEVER WILL.

Religion aint the problem its HUMANS. Its good v evil and I dont want to squish anyones ego but WE aint all good. We have our issues. THis war aint Christians vs Muslims. Its the US and its allies vs Terrorists. We have some Christians on our side sure but I wouldnt compare our forces with a "Holy" army of God. Ever seen troops on liberty? A quick check of our "boys" on thier time off would probably shock some of you. The whore houses are full and the beer flows....There are a lot of Christians out there for sure. But I dont think God is taking sides...President Bush aint King David.

This aint a religious war....its a human one. When the REAL religious war comes there will be a lot of hurt feelings...

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 16:27:59 (ZULU)

Gents,

Gooch-san and Jon, Nice take on the current situation in the ME. This is not a religious war...that's only window dressing. It's about fighting an enemy that wants to live in the dark ages, has the collective intelligence of a pomagranite, and believes their way is the only way.

Have never been a big church goer. Had a brush with "organized" religion that left a bad taste in my mouth years ago. Have not been back in a church since. I have a strong faith and belief, but feel I don't have to have the Lord's word "interpreted" for me. Believe there is but one god...we just call him different names. If that's true the good Lord must be laughing his ass off at religion's attempt to modify his word to their goals/needs.

Not to offend, but thought this was cute. Know how to get a nun pregnant? Dress her as an alter boy!

Semper fi,

Sir Wes

(Undoubtedly going to hell, now.)

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 17:52:50 (ZULU)

Just to set the record straight,i do not have anything against Jews, I was though brought up in a society where the words Jew and Arab where used as derogatory(sp) terms for lesser members of society, criminals, vandals, lay about and generaly lazy barstuards. I am certainly aware of A Jewish mafia, with protection rackets, dodgey dealings etc within the poultry, textile and market gardening industries of East Yorkshire. No one around our area likes Pakistani people (although i work with a Pakistani muslim and you would never meeta more correct, friendly and honest man, ) much of the worlds hate has to do with indoctrination,i saw it with the catholic and pretestant kids in Ireland, same to a lesser extent with us kids as far as jews and arabs go. Its all a damned mine field of political correctness, misconseptions and bullshit.

Politics.. well, it don't matter who wins the elections, the darn government always gets in.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 18:49:56 (ZULU)

Wes,

I have to agree with you that "orginized religion" has been moving towards a perversion of the original plan. We've allowed someone to influence our religious leaders to do some pretty terrible things throughout history. Does anyone remember Jefferson and his policy of "Manifest Destiny" ? A lot of my native ancestors died because they stood in the way of "Manifest Destiny".

The Pope was responsible for literally millions of deaths of native peoples around the world in order to "convert" them to Christianity (and fill the vaults in the Vatican with treasures).

The Army Major who lead the Trail of Tears during which thousands of native peoples died in their march to Oklahoma, was a Methodist Minister.

In short, not too many of us can throw rocks at anyone else over human rights in our histories. Every great civilization has, at one point, been ugly to those who got in their way. The best news is that most have discontinued their Imperialistic endeavors and some are now trying to make life better for others who don't have it as good as we do. Though I'm still a devout believer, I can't say that any other religion that believes in peace and good will towards our fellow men is wrong. That's between them and their Creator. I don't have to agree with all their ideas though.

In the ME now, however, extremist factions have convinced their followers that the reason they are still living in dirt huts and eating cow dung is because of the Jews and their friends the Americans. They have to blame someone else for the failure of their way of doing things and it won't be themselves.

As we begin to show them that we are there to help, more and more of them realize where the problems really lie. If the liberal media would only show that side of what we're doing in Iraq and Afganistan, the rest of the world would join in. Like everyone else, I can't see the major networks as pro-American. They rejoice in showing the bad side of everything America tries to do, and everything the liberals are trying to do to tear down the principals this great nation was built on. They see the crime in our streets as a "gun control" problem, not a lack of discipline and morals.

The ten commandments don't necessarily have to be religious in nature (except for the first two I guess). The others are basic rules that enable us to get along with each other. Don't kill each other, don't lie, don't steal someone else's property... especially their wives or husbands, treat your neighbor like you'd like to be treated.... What's so hard about that?

The religious aspect of the middle eastern unpleasantness is only the outward view of a much darker inner problem.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Down South, USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 19:30:28 (ZULU)

Back to rifle country for a bit.

Still testing rifles and ammunition and saw a little post about chambers and the idea that there are fast and slow "chambers". Out I go for another test:

Here's the results summarized:

The rifles (barrels and chambers)

Rifle 1:

G-A Precision Rem 700 Custom, Match chamber (not tight neck), 24" Mike Rock 1x11.15 barrel. (round count ~1,000)

Rifle 2:

Rem 40X Custom, 7.62 NATO chamber, 26" Hart 1x12 barrel. (round count ~5,000)

The ammunition: Same lot fired from both rifles. Both barrels pre-fired (warmed). Firing took place within minutes of one another so same environmentals

Ammo 1:

Federal Gold Medal Match 168's (308 Win)

Ammo 2:

Military 7.62MM Long Range M118 (175 Sierra Match King)

Oehler at 6" from muzzle (center screen)

Rifle 1 (GAP, 24" barrel,match chamber)

GMM 168 average speed 2744fps (StDev=16.8fps)

M118LR average speed 2717fps (StDev = 26fps)

Rifle 2 (Rem 40X, 26" barrel, 7.62NATO chamber)

GMM 168average speed 2661fps (StDev=19.8fps)

M118LR average speed 2639fps (StDev=19.2fps)

Observed: The rifle with the 24" barrel produced speeds 84 fps faster with the GMM 168s than the rifle with the 26" barrel.

The rifle with the 24" barrel produced speeds 78 fps faster with the M118LR than the rifle with the 26" barrel.

The 40X rifle (26" barrel) showed the faster bullet to be the GMM 168s by 22 fps.

The Custom Rem 700 (24" barrel) showed the faster bullet to be the GMM 168s by 28 fps.

I've been told that the standard M24 (24" barrel, 7.62 NATO chamber) push M118LR at 2600 fps. About that I'd guess for a 2639 fps average out of my 26" barrel and 7.62 NATO chamber.

What are the groups thoughts on these data??? Fast barrel or fast chamber (both somewhat but major contributor would be the)??

Dave "Doc" King
MD, - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 20:13:26 (ZULU)

Gents, anyone have first hand experience with Springfields SOCOM 16?? Just saw it on "Guns and Ammo" on the Outdoor Channel and it looked very impressive! The muzzle brake seems to be VERY effective as the gentlemen was firing, off hand, saw NO muzzle rise at all! Was doing a fair job of "room clearing" then shot some "long distance", they never said how far but looked good.

Like I said anyone with first hand experience??

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 20:29:09 (ZULU)

"A quick check of our "boys" on thier time off would probably shock some of you. The whore houses are full and the beer flows...."

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 21:58:16 (ZULU)

"A quick check of our "boys" on thier time off would probably shock some of you. The whore houses are full and the beer flows...."

Just like a F$%^#@g Marine....

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 22:03:42 (ZULU)

Quick catchup here- Laupa 155's shot low right from SMK of the same weight with same other components. Hung in there for group at 200 yards. Didn't try longer distance to check BC, but can't see the additional money for a lower POI. I'm pounding the SMK's at 2900 and anything missed is my fault.

Threw my Farrell bases off my .223 in a drawer and replaced them with Loopy QRW. MUCH lower and resolved a number of problems I was blaming on other causes. Too long to go into. Someone was objecting to the lack of additional grooves on the QRW base. The local gun butcher should be able to do that with little effort. Center up on a piece of bar stock with one end marked for Muzzle and drill & tap 2 6X48 in line at proper spacing. Bolt the mounts down and mill extra cross slots. If'n you want repeatability for additional mount work, get the sides & top of the bar stock surface ground for parallelism before the D&T.

Need to figure out a way to get Burris Signature Zee rings lower than their medium. Hummmmmm- Anyone out there do custom cutter grinding reasonable?

WR Moore
Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 23:46:21 (ZULU)

Doc; Chamber size.

Brogers
Sunday, October 17, 2004, at 23:54:31 (ZULU)

Springfield Socom 16- I had a chance to play with one recently. I can't say I ran it too hard it was just a demo from a range buddy. It sure handles well and recoil was no big deal allowing easy follow up shots. I like the sights for a short "battle" rifle. Easy to pick up the front sight and I like that it's a tritium sight. Muzzle break worked well. It's not a match gun but shot well enough, like a battle rifle (sorry no measured groups). In fact I'm saving for a new project and I have considered derailing it for a SOCOM 16. This with an Aimpoint would make an interesting carry rifle.

Barbie doll question- Ok get it out of your system now... I just had several "Ken" dolls given to us and was wondering if anybody remembers the range a 12" action figure represents a person at 100 and 200 yards. might as well give my guys something different to aim at (that actually wears clothes to).

Good news is I just aquired a old Unertl I needed to finish the rebuild of my old vintage bench gun, for a fair price..not cheap just not a rip off either =) My new COlt blued Govt. XSE came in yesterday =) I found a trade deal I'm working on to swap a Kimber for a Gold Cup too...we shall see on that one.

Stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Cali, US of A - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 00:05:54 (ZULU)

I saw a review of a SOCOM 16 in, I think, "Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement". They were getting groups of 2 to 2.5 inches at 100 yards, which is not bad for a battle rifle, but not, IMO, up to Designated Marksman rifle standards. And the scope mount is for an extended eye-relief optic. It would make a reasonable car gun for short range work, with the punch to get through some obstacles, but I'd probably be more interested in an SR-25 or a good build of an AR10, myself.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 02:05:44 (ZULU)

This planet is God's comedy channel.

Brogers
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 02:38:24 (ZULU)

Does anyone know whether the Ithaca import of the Tikka rifle used standard Tikka bases (circa 1970s) for the flat-top Tikka, and whether these are available commercially? Thanks.

P. M. Hayden
USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 05:34:57 (ZULU)

Wes, et. al.,

Re: "It's about fighting an enemy that wants to live in the dark ages, has the collective intelligence of a pomagranite, and believes their way is the only way."

Don't kid yourself, some -- but not all -- of the terrorists are not stupid, they're very intelligent! Coordinating the actions of 19 people to almost simultaneously take over at least four commercial airliners was not accomplished by stupid people. Underestimating the intelligence and/or dedication of the terrorists we are up against is one of the worst things we can do!

Jay Dee
SoCentral, WA, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 07:36:07 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Very true. The religious war will leave some shakin their heads.

Doc,

I wonder if 6" mighta been 6' on the chrony?? But my opinion on the speed issue is a combination as you said. That coupled with the fact the 118 was reduced to 2600 a few years back. I think I remember Rick B. sayin the older stuff shot much better. The Hart barrel is probably the only thing on the 40X chamber that's keepin the speed up, plus the 2" extra. A test with a newer Hart barrel might show even closer speeds. Several of my GAP rifles are cut to a M118LR chamber spec and all are Rock barreled and all are over 2700 with 118LR. FWIW.

John

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 10:53:16 (ZULU)

Jon Beardsly.

Mail coming your way (260)

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 11:18:33 (ZULU)

John

Yup, 6' would be correct but most men can't tell the difference between 6" and 6' (ask any woman) :).

I was just comparing data on the 175 GMM I have and the M118 LR and they seem to average the same speed out of my 24" Rock barrel (2716fps for M118LR and 2720fps for GMM 175).

On the M118 chamber specs, would that be the all forgiving 7.62 NATO chamber or something tighter??

I notice that the M118LR rounds chamber just a little snug in my GAP rifle but offer no resistance in the 40X NATO chamber.

Dave "Doc" King
MD, - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 12:41:52 (ZULU)

Doc; I would say JR would be the one who could answer you best on your question. However, my experience indicates to me that there is much variation in .308 chambers. Some are longer in the throat to accomidate round nose bullets apparently and some are just plain fraidy cat for fear of some law suit if somebody gets a too high pressure load against the rifling causing the pressure to raise. Some are made to original specifications or tighter than that in order to keep things accurate. IT's quite common to find 2 different rifles of American or even the same manufacturer that will be different enough as to cause chambering problems. OF course someone mentioned that a barrel may give a little more velocity than another but usually that's small compared to chamber variations or even loading dies can also cause some variatons. AR-15 barrels are particularly noticable in these areas. Savage chambers are as consistant as any as of late but Remington and Winchester vary quite a lot. Browning is always in the ball park but I've seen some variation in the years even there. This is something that's hard to measure since the length, head space and diametere are all equally involved. It has always been my contention that one of the main reasons we see so called "custom barrels" shoot so much better is the closer chamber tolerances.

Brogers
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 13:39:07 (ZULU)

Almost posted a long tirade on the issues with ISreal and the arabs. But decised against it. Keep one thing in mind. (this I learned while pulling duty in the Sini and trips curtacy of Uncle Sam) Both the Israelis and the Arabs see everyone else as either gentiles or infidals. In other words, lesser people then themselves. This kind of attitude/thinking is how Isreal and the Arab nations can justify killing of the helpless, i.e. children, elderly, women. This is how they justify car bombings, school bombings, 9-11, etc. To them (either Isreali or Arab) no one else matters. From my time in the Sini and other trips with CENTCOM, I learned not to trust either.

SteveS
Ft. Bragg AO, NC, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 13:42:18 (ZULU)

Jay Dee: Well said. That is the biggest challenge in prosecuting the GWT; too many are willing to assume a "superior" mind-set. Our equipment is better, our tactics are better, our morality is better, our brains are better...etc, etc.

Reminds me of a flick quote:

Kid: "The enemy is using stone age weapons against our modern helicopters...how could they ever win?"

Old Vet: "How can we defeat an enemy who is willing to use stone age weapons against a modern weapons?"

Know thy enemy; respect him as an adversary. But for the diaspora---Einstein coulda been born in the middle east. Genius ain't a National resource. Know the motivations too...but that is asking alot of our populace.

(Note: Not implying respect for anything other than his ability to wage a fight)

Geoff stopped in after a day on the tactics range; hahaha---he looked like he did two iterations of the Nasty Nick Obstacle Course. Hahaha. Musta been a great course! I bet he's using a winch to drag himself outta bed this morning.

Brian InSain: I said winch...not wench. The latter tend to keep ya in bed...and that ain't the point here! Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 15:20:26 (ZULU)

Doc, 'yote wacker,

I'm thinkin the nato chamber is a loosey goosey thing fer machine gun bullets and the M118LR chamber that George cuts is dimensionally specific to that cartridge. Or so I was told. "yote is right about chamber variance. I've got a chunk of that stuff you make chamber casts with and I've checked a few and NONE are even close to the same. Even the chambers that are cut with the same reamer are a little different cause of reamer wear after 2 or 3 or 10 chambers. Maybe George or JR can enlighten us on chamber variation in rifles they chamber an how long does a reamer last. I saw dimensions of various .308 chambers somwhere on the web but can't 'member where. I'll go look around, maybe that ar15 site. Rainin anyway, got more towers to build than we've had in 3 years combined, and can't work. The economy is improvin in the construction business.

John

edit to add, a quick and dirty search provided this info and a note about converted spanish mausers that scared me. Early models( I believe 93-95) converted from 7x57 to .308 weren't holdin together very well.

308 Winchester (SAAMI) Gauges Shop (Military) Gauges(Nato)

GO - 1.6300" GO - 1.6350"

NOGO - 1.6340" NOGO - 1.6405"

FIELD - 1.6380" FIELD - 1.6455"

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 15:23:55 (ZULU)

Definition of irony:

Using the website put up by Kerry-Edwards to attract the absentee vote (www.overseasvote2004.com)... to get the info required to register to vote for Bush.

Jeff
Canada - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 16:41:34 (ZULU)

Gooch,

I totally agree with you. WE are not fighting a holy war; but the extremists are. The actions of the West are being scrutinised for even a perceived hint of religious motive. They will then use the slightest hint of it to try and gain support from the moderates or the impressionable.

I also agree with Jay Dee we must not underestimate our enemy, and nor must we ignore their determination driven by religious zeal.

My rantings regarding religion were a little more long winded than intended, but were in responce to Vernon. I basically read his message as saying 'beware critisising Israel for they are God's people'. My critisism has NOTHING to do with Judaism, it is POLITICAL and it is statements like that which I am warning against. I'm not accusing anyone on here of being a zealot, but extremists are not restricted to Islam either and they would love the opportunity to make the war on terror a Holy Crusade. My message is simply BEWARE.

Steve S,

May be inappropriate after my earlier posts but - AMEN! ;-)

Gary,

No email received as yet!

Suppressor fans,

Any of you guys aware of scopes failing on suppressed full-bore rifles? Been zeroing the work 270 today after re-fitting the Swarovski 6x42 on it. It was sent away to get the reticule replaced after it came apart within 10 days of first starting to use a suppressor. My colleague's went a day or so before mine, and went again within 2 weeks of him fitting the repaired scope (he has just fitted repair number 2 today). I had been using a spare Leupold I had lying around and had no problems with it, but decided to try the work scope again. Both scopes have fine reticules for the centre x-hair and it is the fine wires that are breaking.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 16:53:04 (ZULU)

Howdy,

I need some help. After just finishing my own divorce a year ago, I have put some money together to build an inexpensive semi-custom rifle. I have settled on the 6.5-06 due to the similarity between it and the -.284, and the inexpensive/easily found and converted .270 brass.

I would like help on where to start loading for this caliber. I plan on making this a hunting/target rifle. Since I have a designated target rifle in .308 (shooting 155s in .25 MOA 5 shot groups) So I'll probably be using Horady AMAX bullets.

Sarge - and others with knowlege of .280 Ackley:

I had a rifle in this cal built for my father last Christmas. He has since taken it to a guy at the local Gun Show to form and load rounds for him. This is not only expensive, but the accuracy does not fulfill our likes.

I am fairly new to reloading (mostly .308 so no forming) and I would appreciate any info and help on this cal. Thank yall.

By the way my email address listed isn't correct, here is a good one:

michael(dot)natalino(at)us(dot)army(dot)mil

Respectfully,

Mayhem

PS thanks for the info on the spam bots

Mayhem
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 17:42:12 (ZULU)

Mayhem,

You really ought to edit your e-mail in your post to be "michael dot natalino at us dot army dot mil". Keeps the spam bots from harvesting your e-mail address from this site.

Jeff
Canada - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 17:43:46 (ZULU)

Chamber dimensions-both Clymer & Pacific have reamer drawings on their websites. There is difference between the reamer and the finished chamber. Bore/reamer alignment, reamer condition and feed rates make a difference. Reaming one chamber in a lathe-whether you have the chamber in the chuck or out on a steadyrest-is more accurate than you get with multi-spindle production machines. Unless you're a complete klutz. Probably the only way we'll settle the chamber difference question is to take one barrel (actually need 20 to rule out random chance), chamber it to the tighter chamber and shoot for data. Then pull the barrel and re-ream to the looser chamber and reshoot the data.

John- I'd kinda like to know where you got those alleged SAAMI specs so I don't get anything from them. The Go gauge dimension you quoted has to be based on the assumption that the datum line is halfway from shoulder to neck. Not True!!!!

Most of the Spanish .308 conversions came apart due to heat treat(or lack thereof) of parts. I heard-can't document- that those conversions were police carbines that were intended for an arsenal load specific to the pressure limitations of the weapon. What some dumb Gringo does with it later isn't their problem.

WR Moore
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 17:44:54 (ZULU)

Jon Beardsley

Sorry sir, but I think you read something in my post that was not actually there. Actually I did not say the Jews were the chosen, but did say in fact the Bible does and that was the center of my statment. Whether or not they are is irrelivent, as you stated, we all "think" we are! And in that sentence there was no reference to politics. The reference to politics was in the second sentence (not related to the first)pertaining to a conversation overheard!

While some of your views and points are well taken and to some degree, I agree, I think no person should be judged by his/her color,faith,nationality but solely on what they do in life. That is the only true measure. Everyone I have ever met has a dark side. It's how they handle it that counts.

It was not my intent to waken sleeping dragons here and if I have I apologize, but will offer no apology for my thoughts!

Maby as some of the other posters have eluded, we should stay on shooting related subjects, as in gun control issues, there are no winners in religious/political views!

Vern

Vernon
Houston, TX, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 17:46:10 (ZULU)

Hey GOOCH, it was good to see you again. I had a chance to have a long talk with Gooch last week. We both were at the Winston P. Wilson match in Little Rock Arkansas. Gooch showed me some new products that BeamHit is coming out with and also a Ballistic program that he had that looked pretty good. He was going to print out some data tables for me but he did not have the power cord for his printer.

Gooch, I will work on that think we talked about and send it out.

SFC Pete Carpentier JR TXNG
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 19:23:57 (ZULU)

I guess it goes without saying, and with all the discuwssion about ski's on your bipod, I should have known better than to shoot the folded bipod against the sand bag. But it will be ok as soon as I find another swivel stud for my .300 SAUM. I think if I install the front end components from a wrecked Jeep and get a size or two larger tires I won't need the ski modification at all. Saves on Frizbees.

Testing the SAUM at 1000.

168 Mk's best group 10" most around 12 to 15. Varget 54.5.

178 A-max best group 6" worst 9". Guess I'll shoot this one.

Brogers
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 22:23:31 (ZULU)

Need some advice...I have been looking at buying an Olympic Arms PCR1 (mouse gun)..it is offered in 1X10 twist and 1X8. The 1X8 is recommendeed for bullets weighing 75 grains and more while the 1X10 is recommended for the lighter bullets. My questions is: In general, what can I expect (bullet groupings)if I shoot the lighter bullets through the faster twist rate barrel? ie. 55 grain bullet through 1X8 barrel. Thanks in advance.

Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 22:31:36 (ZULU)

Gerry: I have a 1:9 twist on my bolt mouser. I wish it were a nice, tight 1:8 though. I top out at 69 gr boolits before I start to shotgun groups (patterns). And the lighter fodder holds just fine at 1:9, though a thin jacket may object to 1:8--good bullets ought to hold together and deliver accuracy.

Me, I'd go 1:8 without pause.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, October 18, 2004, at 22:44:45 (ZULU)

Gerry,

I was talking to one of the National Guards match armorers this last week and I asked him which rifles to avoid and guess which company was mentioned?????

Rock River Arms seems to be the company of choice along with Armalite and Bushmaster...

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 23:30:29 (ZULU)

Mayhem,

Contact Sierra as they have the data you are looking for in 6.5-06. Email them and they will send you a PDF document containing the data.

Look at .25-06 brass instead of .270 Winchester. All you have to do is run it through a 6.5-06 die and load. There is no need to neck turn when using .25-06 brass. Good luck.

JMTC

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, October 18, 2004, at 23:54:51 (ZULU)

Jon.

Can't send from SC . Comes up server problem.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 00:08:14 (ZULU)

Mayhem I have a 6.5-06, 21" Hart barrel 1/7 twist. It shoots Sierra 142s well. 49.1 Imr 4350, Fed 210m, Rem 25/06 case necked up. You'll find a 25-06 case works better, 270 will be longer. I've also tried necked down 30-06. 25-06 is your best choice.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 01:48:18 (ZULU)

Hi At the SMTC match one stage was shooting thru a window that was opened 1.5 inchs at a steel target 300yards away. A number of shooters said to turn rifle on side and put chrosshairs at neck. I missed both shots.Today I was at a 300yd range with 4'by 4' clean backer with IDPA target in center.I tried 2 different rifles, both sub MOA,with rifle on side and got no hits on backer.I then tried to hit 3" circle at 100 yds with both rifles on side. Both hit 7 oclock 6" from center. Any ideas? Charlie

Charlie Mitzelfeld
Ann Arbor,, MI, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 02:01:53 (ZULU)

Charlie,

Isn't that what you carry a pistol for, to open the window.....Just kidding.

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 02:14:56 (ZULU)

Charlie,

If you are shooting 1" left and 6" low at 100 yards, adjust your elevation cam to one full moa below your 100 yard position and dial on 6 moa of right wind... <grin>

Now you have your 100 yard zero...add the appropriate elevation to your windage knob to get out to 300 and you should be good to go.

It's sorta like starting an IV while hangin' through the sun-roof of a wrecked car....easy once you get used to it.

medicjim
Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 02:17:23 (ZULU)

Mayhem,

FWIW: I have also been looking at rebarreling my -06 to 6.5mm x something. I abhor fire-forming and neck resizing, so I'm looking at the 6.5x55mm (Swedish Mauser), 6.5mm Remington Magnum and .264 Winchester Magnum -- in increasing case capacity. The Magnums are -- of course -- belted, making the brass more expensive than the 6.5mm-06. I'm primarily intersted in 1000yd target shooting, so probably will end up with the Winchester.

Jay Dee
SoCentral, WA, Good ol' US of A - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 04:21:37 (ZULU)

Charlie: you just have to try that shot, and see what works, as the exact numbers are specific to a given rifle. My AI, bolt up, shoots 1.4 mils low (5 inches), and 1.2 mils (4.3 inches) to the left at 100 yards. As the range increases, I increase the 1.4 mil high hold by the normal mil offset for the increased range. The windage hold stays constant. I don't touch the dials, because (a) I'm using a scope with a Horus reticle, and (b) I'm normally doing that shot as part of a drill involving other shots, so I don't want to mess with the dials for speed reasons. Your mileage may vary - and the numbers certainly will.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 04:25:11 (ZULU)

Jay Dee;

Don't overlook the 6.5-284 cartridge. Lapua makes brass for it. The 6.5 Swede is a very good choice as well. I know of a fella that uses a .264 Win Mag in F Class. Does rather well, too.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 04:50:48 (ZULU)

Charlie,

When I made the shot out the window at SMTC, I returned the elevation to zero from the outside shot. Knowing that I get about a 2.5 to 3 inch drop at 100 yrds, I knew that I had to hold about 3 inches to the left of center. Then, knowing my elevation adjustment for the shot outside, I convert that to about a mil and a half hold over on what would be the windage under normal conditions. Up right, it would look like holding three inches high and a mil and a half left favor, then rotate the scope to the left.

I hit that shot but my old eyes couldn't see the markings on the elevation knob in the dark room and I didn't reset my elevation correctly. I blew most of the rest of the shots because of it. But I did hit the window shot!! :-)

I'm sure that there are more technicaly correct ways to do it, but this one worked for me.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
MS, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 05:50:06 (ZULU)

Thanks Joe M. I knew there had to be a possible downside or the manufacturers would only make the faster twist rates. I had not even considered the possibility/consequences to thinly jacketed bullets. I think I will go with the 1X8 as you suggest. Thanks again for helping out a newbie.

Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 05:57:38 (ZULU)

AWWW Gooch...you've thrown a wrench into the works, now I have to rethink the brand to buy. But seriously thanks for the tip....very timely...I was about to phone an order in for 2 rifles...(I have a buddy that always seems to want to order whatever I buy.) Two questions though: 1. Can you elaborate on what the deficiencies are? 2. Was he talking about the entire line or was most of his experience with Service Match guns? (I'll probably go with Rock River now, it was already my second choice!) Thanks again for saving me from frustration.

Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 06:13:11 (ZULU)

Test

LR
South Africa - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 08:36:34 (ZULU)

Mouseguns-with everybody running off to order new toys, thought I'd offer a point on permanently attached muzzle gadgets. Avoid! We have a series of weapons at work with Phantom flash suppressors. They experienced marked gas cutting/stress cracks quickly and several won't group on a B-27 at 25 yards. Appears that at least some were made from straight low carbon bar stock.

Get your M-4gery with the 16 inch barrel and a replaceable flash suppressor. You won't notice the difference and the gadget on the barrel is the throw-away widget it's supposed to be.

WR Moore
Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 11:17:29 (ZULU)

Vernon,

Sorry for any misunderstanding. As has been said on here before, the internet is not always the best medium for communication and things don't always come out the way intended. Damn, I know I feel misunderstood most of the time ;-)

Gary,

Try 'jon at sgreadan dot fsnet dot co dot uk'. Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 12:54:34 (ZULU)

Sorry if this was posted via a link .. but thought it would be good reading -- and a wake up call for the wavering....

"This was written in the Daily Record (Ellensburg's paper) on Wed. Oct. 6, 2004. It was written by Mathew (only one t) Manweller who is a Central Washington University political science professor. The title of the article was

"Election determines fate of nation." "

In that this will be my last column before the presidential election there will be no sarcasm, no attempts at witty repartee. The topic is too serious, and the stakes are too high. This November we will vote in the only election during our lifetime that will truly matter. Because America is at a once-in-a-generation crossroads, more than an election hangs in the balance. Down one path lies retreat, abdication and a reign of ambivalence. Down the other lies a nation that is aware of its past and accepts the daunting obligation its future demands. If we choose

poorly, the consequences will echo through the next 50 years of history. If we, in a spasm of frustration, turn out the current occupant of the White House, the message to the world and ourselves will be twofold. First, we will reject the notion that America can do big things. Once a nation that tamed a frontier, stood down the Nazis and stood upon the moon, we will announce to the world that bringing democracy to the Middle East is too big of a task for us. But more significantly, we will signal to future presidents that as voters, we are unwilling to tackle difficult challenges, preferring caution to boldness, embracing the mediocrity that has characterized other civilizations. The defeat of President Bush will send a chilling message to future presidents who may need to make difficult, yet unpopular decisions. America has always been a nation that rises to the demands of history regardless of the costs or appeal. If we turn away from

that legacy, we turn away from who we are. Second, we inform every terrorist organization on the globe that the lesson of Somalia was well learned. In Somalia we showed terrorists that you don't need to defeat America on the battlefield when you can defeat them in the newsroom. They learned that a wounded America can become a defeated America. Twenty-four-hour news stations and daily tracing polls will do the heavy lifting, turning a cut into a fatal blow. Except that Iraq is Somalia times 10. The election of John Kerry will serve notice to every terrorist in every cave that the soft underbelly of American power is the timidity of American voters. Terrorists will know that a steady stream of grizzly photos for CNN is all you need to break the will of the American people. Our own self-doubt will take it from there. Bin Laden will recognize that he can topple any American administration without setting foot on the homeland. It is said

that America's W.W.II generation is its 'greatest generation.' But my greatest fear is that it will become known as America's 'last generation.' Born in the bleakness of the Great Depression and hardened in the fire of WW II, they may be the last American generation that understands the meaning of duty, honor and sacrifice. It is difficult to admit, but I know these terms are spoken with only hollow detachment by many (but not all) in my generation. Too many citizens today mistake 'living in America' as 'being an American.' But America has always been more of an idea than a place. When you sign on, you do more than buy real estate. You accept a set of values and responsibilities. This November, my generation, which has been absent too long, must grasp the obligation that comes with being an American, or fade into the oblivion they may deserve. I believe that 100 years from now historians will look back at the election of 2004 and see it

as the decisive election of our century. Depending on the outcome, they will describe it as the moment America joined the ranks of ordinary nations; or they will describe it as the moment the prodigal sons and daughters of the greatest generation accepted their burden as caretakers of the City on the Hill." Mathew Manweller

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va , USofA - Still Under God - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 13:23:18 (ZULU)

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm

This is the site. I always thought the datum line was HALF way up the shoulder????

John

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1049, Oct 2,, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 13:33:13 (ZULU)

Charlie; go to the JBM ballistics program. Set it up so that you are measuring drop out of the barrel as opposed to 100 yard zero.(you are zeroed at the muzzle in the case of your rifle being 90 degrees turned. Use the item titled "offset" to input the distance between your barrel center and your crosshair with it's normal 100 yard zero. The range card will show you the settings for either right or left cant in MOA at 100 yards.

Mouse guns; I don't think my posting mechanism is working at times. Been telling you yard birds for year to Mouse with a Rock River. Gees buy you books and buy you books.:)

Seriously the Wilson 1 in 8 in either stainless 0r regular shoots all the bullets around 69 or so quite well. You can expect right around 1 moa but every shot will be there. IF your trigger is a little hard change the hammer only to a replacement that gives a better feel unless you wanna go the afterthought trigger which is excellent by RR. I shoot regular spires of 55-69 but it handles up to 107 before it gets squirley. If you get a big bull mouse that charges you might wanna have a bayonet lug installed. They can be really dangerous when angry in tight quarters.

W.R. Moore; very sound advice. I would shy away from muzzle devices unless there is a compelling reason. I put my collapsable back on but it's just for handy reasons. The other stock is really the best. Dunno about the new folders cause believe it or not I ain't tried em yet.

Troops dismissed.

Brogers
Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 13:50:30 (ZULU)

Gerry,

He wasnt specific about the Oly rifles just made a face and said, "I've had trouble with them" Those kind of comments have usually meant out of spec parts with most gunsmiths I know. Holes off center, poor quality control etc. Heck with RRA you get a Wilson barrel etc. Fort Benning gun club swears by 'em etc.

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 14:23:40 (ZULU)

>>>...thought I'd offer a point on permanently attached muzzle gadgets. Avoid! We have a series of weapons at work with Phantom flash suppressors. They experienced marked gas cutting/stress cracks quickly and several won't group on a B-27 at 25 yards. Appears that at least some were made from straight low carbon bar stock.<<<

Several years ago, some company made ripoffs of the Phantom flash suppressor out of less than adequate material. Real crap. You may have some of these on your guns, Bill! I'd have them all removed and replaced with new units from a reputable dealer.

For us civvies there's no reason for a permanently attached anything anymore. If you MUST have a 14.5" barrel then SBR it, otherwise get the 16-incher.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 14:42:08 (ZULU)

Olympic Arms....hmmmm.....

I have had three of them now. A "preban" CAR had receiver pin that was walking out under recoil, otherwise ran fine. A Service Match that was a one holer, and now an Ultramatch, aka PCR-1, which is also a one holer.

Overall, I have been happy with Oly Arms. Then again, maybe I have just been lucky?

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 15:21:18 (ZULU)

On AR's, certainly no expert on this but when I wnet to Armorers school for ARs I was told "Stick to Colt, Bushmaster, FN or Armalite. All others may not be spec and some will be seconds" They went on to say that the Olympic Arms Ultra Match bbls where good though. I have never had a bad part from Bushmaster or Colt. When I wnet to school the Rock Rivers where not around. What I have seen of thier stuff is excellent so I would say they are good to go also, plus I hear they are great guys.

Just got back from GA Precision. Had a nice visit with George and Marty. Damm fine outfit and never seen a shop beter laid our or kept cleaner.

PIcked up my new rifle. Its a Remington 700 SA Steel, Mike Rock 24" M24/#7 taper heavily flutted 5R (we originally where going to use carbon but gave up after one delay after another since the last Shot Show), McMillans new super light A5, Badger Aluminum Rings, USO Aluminum Scope base (Marty was out) and Badger Aluminum Trigger guard. Rifle without minus just the scope is 8lbs 5oz. Damm thing shoots like a house a fire. George had installed a NXS 3.5-15x50 with Zero Stop and the new MLS reticle and I did not have the heart to take it off. It just shot too well with it. Nice scope

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 15:25:22 (ZULU)

Jon Beardsley

No worries guy. Thick skin on this end. Opinions and choice are good reasons for redheads/blonds, Chevy/Ford and guns/fishing rods.

Hang tough and stay safe.

Vern

Vernon
Houston, TX, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 15:34:36 (ZULU)

Charlie,

I sat straight up in bed from a deep sleep last night because I realized that I'd given you bad info. Instead of LEFT favor on your windage, it should of been RIGHT favor. Anyway, it's about a mil and a half hold over at that particular target. I'm sure you've already figured this out. Sorry dude :-(

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 15:35:36 (ZULU)

Rock River Rocks! They have an upper out that has a 16" bbl, but with a 2" longer handguard and the front sight tower is commensurately further out, as well. Looks kinda like the old 20" service rifle, until you pick it up. Sweet! It puts the flash supressor(ha!) at the right distance from the bayonet lug to be useable, in case you need to mount a bayonet charge sometime in the desperate future. The sight radius is longer, for better accuracy, at least for me since I'm getting more farsighted with age. 1/9 twist handles up to 69 grainers, and buddies, it will shoot! Sarge and I had it on steel out to the occasional 700, consistent 600 and 4-500 got boring. The front sight post seems to be NM width, as I was able to use it for hold-off on the 300 yd moving target course. The Yeti they had moving the targets thought it would be funny to run full-tilt instead of a slow patrol walk, but got 5 outta 10 anyway. If yer getting a shorty upper, you sure might wanna look into one. I've always liked the 20", as I've always figured you could do anything with it you could with the 16"-er, but not necessarily vice versa. Not no more! I'm hooked on it.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 17:13:22 (ZULU)

LOL Joe! The freezing rain and sleet where great!

Gents,

Spent two days training with Greg Sullivan from Defensive Edge. Some of you probably know of him already. 20 year LE, SWAT cop, etc. It was real good stuff. We did a private class as WI state members of that "other", ar15 site, Tactical carbine I and II. I paired up with a FTO from a local agency and it was a great time.

There were everything from Frankenguns to RRA, Colt, Bushy, etc. We had two serious failures during the class, both on day two. By this point we were closing in on 1000 rounds expended. The first gun was the gunsmith's custom job, failure to extract and went down hard. He replaced the extractor and spring and was GTG. The other was repeated failures to extract via ripping off the cartridge rim. He went to his backup gun, a Springfield M1A NM and finished the class with it. I don't remember what brand the rifle was.

Amazingly, quite a few of us shot the class without a red dot sight. I used my Colt preban 9mm with a Colt 16" lightweight A-1 5.56 mm upper, 1-12" twist.

Most of your AR parts come from the same small group of machine shops. Where the real differences are, is in the barrel, assembly work, and QC. RRA has good barrels and everyone knows it. RRA, Bushy, Armalite, DPMS all have pretty good reps on complete guns, and that is due to good QC and assembly. If you build your own AR's, quality of assembly is a moot point. All you need is a good barrel, and parts that are made to spec. The outfits I listed will all replace an out of spec part for you if needed without a whole lot of hassle. Those who want a very solid barrel in a kit or weapon usually go RRA due to the reputation they have for accuracy.

There are pics and a brief synopsis of the class posted at ARFCOM in the WI hometown forum. It was great to find high quality instruction close to home. We are already planning level III and IV. I still want to hook up for Badlands too.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 18:20:01 (ZULU)

Whoops, double tap.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 18:20:54 (ZULU)

Politics Country - OK, but at least this affects whether or not mere 'civilians' will be allowed to own things that spit projectiles, like sling shots, or not . . .

- - -

KERRY¹S MILITARY RECORDS

This is more than an eye opener.

Military Record

Unlike McCain, Bush, and Gore, Kerry has adamantly refused to authorize the release of his military records. Most think it's because of his phony battle medals. I think the real reason is below. He was not granted an Honorable Discharge until March 2001; almost 30 years after his ostensible service term had ended! This is very much out of the ordinary, and highly suspect. There are 5 classes of Discharge: Honorable, General, Other Than Honorable, Bad Conduct, and Dishonorable. My guess is that he was Discharged in the '70s, but not Honorably. He appealed this sometime while Clinton was doing trouser-tricks in the Oval Office. Political pressure was applied, and the Honorable Discharge was then granted. His file is probably rife with reports of this, submissions and hearings on the appeal, reports of his "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy, along with protests that were filed with respect to his alleged valor under fire.

This will blow up in his face before the election.

================================================================

On 18 Feb. 1966 John Kerry signed a 6 year enlistment contract with the Navy (plus a 6-month extension during wartime).

On 18 Feb. 1966 John Kerry also signed an Officer Candidate contract for 6 years -- 5 years of ACTIVE duty & ACTIVE Naval Reserves, and 1 year of inactive standby reserves (See items #4 & #5).

Because John Kerry was discharged from TOTAL ACTIVE DUTY of only 3 years and 18 days on 3 Jan. 1970, he was then required to attend 48 drills per year, and not more than 17 days active duty for training. Kerry was also subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Additionally, Kerry, as a commissioned officer, was prohibited from making adverse statements against his chain of command or statements against his country, especially during time of war. It is also interesting to note that Kerry did not obtain an honorable discharge until Mar. 12, 2001 even though his service obligation should have ended July 1, 1972.

Lt. John Kerry's letter of 21 Nov. 1969 asking for an early release from active US Navy duty falsely states "My current regular period of obligated service would be completed in December of this year."

On Jan. 3, 1970 Lt. John Kerry was transferred to the Naval Reserve Manpower Center in Bainbridge, Maryland.

Where are Kerry's Performance Records for 2 years of obligated Ready Reserve, the 48 drills per year required and his 17 days of active duty per year training while Kerry was in the Ready Reserves? Have these records been released?

Has anyone ever talked to Kerry's Commanding Officer at the Naval Reserve Center where Kerry drilled?

On 1 July 1972 Lt. John Kerry was transferred to Standby Reserve - Inactive.

On 16 February 1978 Lt. John Kerry was discharged from US Naval Reserve.

Below are some of the crimes Lt. Kerry USNR committed as a Ready Reservist, while he was acting as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War:

1. Lt. Kerry attended many rallies where the Vietcong flag was displayed while our flag was desecrated, defiled, and mocked, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy. 2. Lt. Kerry was involved in a meeting that voted on assassinating members of the US Senate. 3. Lt. Kerry lied under oath against fellow soldiers before the US Senate about crimes committed in Vietnam. 4. Lt. Kerry professed to being a war criminal on national television, and condemned the military and the USA. 5. Lt. Kerry met with NVA and Vietcong communist leaders in Paris, in direct violation of the UCMJ and the U.S. Constitution.

Lt. Kerry by his own words & actions violated the UCMJ and the U.S. Code while serving as a Navy officer. Lt. Kerry stands in violation of Article 3, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution. Lt. Kerry's 1970 meeting with NVA Communists in Paris is in direct violation of the UCMJ's Article 104 part 904, and U.S. Code 18 U.S.C. 953. That meeting, and Kerry's subsequent support of the communists while leading mass protests against our military in the year that followed, also place him in direct violation of our Constitution's Article 3, Section 3, which defines treason as "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of warfare.

The Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, states, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath. to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

A. L. "Steve" Nash, MAC Ret

http://www.authentiseal.org/contact.htm

John L
Mid MO, U.S.A., - Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 22:52:53 (ZULU)

Folks - all Raffle -

Hawgs -- the goal for usn's in the shop here is to turn on the rifle raffle sometime sunday afternoon.

We're raffling an already built Chandler Sniper, 20" barrel, .308 - from the Estate of Bruce Robinson. LouAnn Robinson wants to see it go to one of our good hawgs out there - so she's asked us to raffle Bruce's Rifle. Very rare that you get a shot at a fine rifle that belonged to a fine gentleman.

Take care all -- stay tuned....

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 00:00:28 (ZULU)

Mousegun country again.........Have 3 Colts, a PWA Commando and a RRA NM. Also have a lonely RRA lower waiting on money to buy one of fancy smancy tricked out uppers with crap hanging all over it. The RRA NM with the 2 stage trigger and floating handguard will put the other's peepee strings in the dirt. It eats most anything you put in it. Haven't ever had a mag fail to drop, no FTF's, and the SS barrel is plumb perty. If the aliens invade, all you need is a can of Krylon to blacken the barrel.

Wedding week is about over and grandson goes home to mom and dad Thursday. Bummer, has been a fun 5 days with the little fart. He sleeps betwixt me and grandma. Beats the hell out of me with his pointy head and big feet. Haven't slept in 5 nights. Woke up with a finger in my nose last night, wasn't mine! Gonna fix a cage around another bed, his own bed! He's a true outdoorsman at 17 months old. Figger he'll be fishin about this time next year and shootin about this time in 2006 or 7.

600 yard weekend at Butner coming up. Thinking of taking a mousegun and shooting in the open class just to bring ole JR Moore to his knees with his 6.5-284. Will probably be the last match for me this year. Been a long year and expensive September and October. Have to start working on load tuning and chronographing stuff. Heck, never know about them thar factory barrels. May luck up.

Works sucks, let's go shootin........Bolt, tired and out!

Bolt
Wind challenged....., NC, - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 01:16:26 (ZULU)

Bolt; didn't know you were so deep in mousers there. Knew you were into mini snipers though. We got ours here this week too. No sleep either. Hope he wears out soon but so far no sign. Maybe in a coupla hours.... please Lord.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 02:52:17 (ZULU)

Well,

The Temp. is starting to drop in Indiana, I guess it is time to shoot moving targets!!!

I know this site is full of great guys, I'm asking for a prayer for my brother that was diagnosed with a brain tumor on 9/23/04( benign, Doctor can't operate). The tumor is located in the left lobe of the brain in a very bad location, the tumor is a FAST grower and shaped like an octopus( sorry, don't know the medical name?) The name of the tumor is Glioma. He is going to endure radiation for 5 weeks to shrink the tumor. The doctor gave him 5 years, but can't say much more about what will happen with his life?

Thanks,

BearMan

THANKS AGAIN!

BearMan
Indy., Indiana, U.S.A. !!! - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 05:16:29 (ZULU)

John L.

I saw that yesterday and can't help but think the press will suPPRESS it till after the election. When he loses they'll hang him with and they look like the good guys. :(

Bearman,

Damn son, that really sux. My cousin in Denver had the same thing about the size of a lemon/tennis ball and they eventually operated and he's doin ok so far. Don't let him give up yet. Prayers goin out. Call me if ya need to talk, I'll drive up an see ya.

John

John
Bruce Robinson July 1, 1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 11:35:57 (ZULU)

Well, all of this precision AR chat has me looking at the Oly PCR-1 and saying hmmm. I'm not saying it's bad but I can understand, after some bad years a few of them back, where Oly was a dog. Then again, so was DPMS for a time.

In the end, the postings have been good. Now, I need to get some glass for it, put it thourgh it's paces and see if it is a keeper. I will guess it is but proof is in the pudding, or the range, so to speak.

Speaking of which, anyone here give me input as to what your agencies are using as spotter weapons with your precision rifle platforms? Still working on some research for command staff.

BR board - patches are coming in and two weeks left before I close the door and get cracking on it. Should do nicely when all is said and done.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 12:07:58 (ZULU)

This is my first chance at a computer in a while and so I stopped in to check up.

Mouse-Gun Country......I'm building a new one this winter myself.

Back to Shanghai tomorrow. The ticker is working great and I should be home on schedule this time.

I'm having too much fun to call this work.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
HONG KONG, SAR, PRC - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 12:11:52 (ZULU)

BearMan

Hard news to take sudden like but once the initial shock wears off some realizations may come... a few years is a long time in the medical community as far as new developments in some fields. Hope the best comes your brothers' direction.

Bolt

See you at the shoot this weekend. I'm toying with bringing a small arsenal and shoot a different rifle in each of the four (4) matchs (Saturday only for me).

Kevin

Take care there. My co-workers (either directly or by marriage) are familiar with Shanghai (home town to them). Maybe I can point you to some well hidden but wonderful local places.

Ken Hunter

I'm stuck on the raffle... I leave early Sunday morning and will be non-computer-enabled for at least a week. I would like to get in on Bruces' rifle.

Charlie Mitzelfeld

Like other said before about the canted rifle fire. For 300 yards on a large(r) target I'd zero the elevation, hold ~1 Mil (old down, toward the trigger of the rifle) and ~1.5 Mil (old left or right, new elevation high). This performs the following operation(s). Zero the scope removes all NON-Zero windage and elevation BUT leaves the 0 to 100 yard (assume you have a 100 yard zero) drop+scope height value (invisible to you). You cant the rifle to the side BUT the 0 to 100 yard drop (previously invisible) becomes windage (now a visible entity). You must compensate for this induced windage by holding off (low in the old elevation orientation) the base 100 yard drop value (~ 3.5 to 4" OR ~1 Mil). Once you've got the system corrected for the induced windage you need to create a mechanism to compensate for the needed elevation. You do this by holding high ~ 1.5 Mil (the holdoff elevation value for a 300 yard target). Standard 308 comeup as I remember them... 100 to 200 = 2MOA, 200 to 300 = 3MOA so you need 5MOA (~1.5Mil) of holdoff elevation. I'm sure I just confused everyone but in my rather twisted brain this is how I perform and see the operation.

Maybe next time we'll shoot upside down!

Dave "Doc" KIng
MD, - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 12:54:11 (ZULU)

My rifle fit just fine out the window at SMTC and I actually had to prop it up. Gotta love the old fashioned HTG stocks and 40mm objectives huh ;)

Upside down now that would be interesting Doc. Let me know when. That was my first time to SMTC and I loved it there. Hopefully I'll be back for Sniper 1 as well as more comps.

Seriously for my partner at the SMTC match Charlie, when I did practice with my rifle on its side, bolt up, at 100 yards I hit at about 2 o'clock about 3" high and right. I think if I did like Lindy mentioned and used mil holds I could get on at 300 with holding 1 mil left and about 1/2 mil high as I'm already hitting about 3 MOA high at 100 so i'll only need about 2 MOA to get to 300. Also like Lindy said it's different with every rifle/scope combo so it's all trial and error.

Rob01
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 13:37:50 (ZULU)

Doc we'll keep that raffle open a minimum of two weeks... to maek sure there's enuff exposure.....

I will make sure you get a shot at it....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Under God - as always - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 14:02:42 (ZULU)

Moe-all our Bushy's (only ones with Phantoms) are becoming dedicated MILES rifles with pins through the barrel to prevent chambering live rounds. Only fit use for the @#$%^ things. As someone else said, ya gotta make the price difference somewhere and QC is usually the first thing to go.

WR Moore
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 14:04:47 (ZULU)

>>>The RRA NM with...the SS barrel is plumb perty. If the aliens invade, all you need is a can of Krylon to blacken the barrel.<<<

Bolt, if you have the extra buttstock weight like I do in mine, you won't need no Krylon.

You can just beat them to death with your 15 pound AR!

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 14:51:04 (ZULU)

Morning Guys,

Just a quick question before I head to court. What is everyone using for a Varget load with the 175s?? Alos if anyone can remember what was the load Catman used with the 155 Lapuas that shot so well??? Thanks!!!!!

Pat
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 14:51:09 (ZULU)

Pat; I used 44 grains in mine.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 15:26:09 (ZULU)

KEN HUNTER

Would you please email me at mjmensale at aol dot com. I'm having some site problems!!!!!

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 15:34:09 (ZULU)

Ken,

I would like a piece of that raffle when it is on.

Morris,

If you get the PCR-1, you should get the 1 in 8 barrel. I have the 1 in 10, and it won't shoot the heavier stuff. The small pills will shoot into as small as a hole as I can hold. I have the Williams set trigger in mine, and I like it. I think Oly Arms has tightened up on their QC over the years. A lot of guys over on Predator Masters forum have the PRC-16, and they all love it. I still need to get you that patch. Was at the academy last week watching recruits shoot.

Anyone have any suggestions for getting more stable in the sitting position? My problem is that I'm too flexible (for shooting). I used to have a TKD instructor that would stand on our legs when we did butterfly stretches. I can still put my legs to the floor. Hence, in sitting, the muzzle is in the dirt. I know someone here will get me sorted out.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 15:34:40 (ZULU)

Jim; I wish I had your problem I think. When your sitting you are bending your knees to hold your rifle muzzle up aren't you?

There is one place I'm too flexible but it doesn't seem to affect my shooting.

Well Doc, Peace reigns supreme again. They took their digging machines and went home. Didn't say what they found but I'm thinking they found they had been had. I think it's safe to come shoot some dogs. Kevlar isn't out of the question but the big hazard was being ran over by a dozer on this one or shot by a bored Sniper. And he knows who he is. :).

Brogers
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 16:31:34 (ZULU)

Pat,

Hmmm.....depends on a couple of variables but here goes.

Iron Brigade Armory rifle, 26" barrel:

LC LR brass, GM210M, 43.0gr Varget, 175 SMK runs 2700 fps.

Trued 700 SA, 26" Rock 5R barrel:

Lapua brass, BR2, 43.0 gr Varget, 175 JLK runs 2721 fps.

Win 70 HBV #1, 26" factory barrel:

Win 92 Palma brass, GM210M, 45.0 gr Varget, 175 SMK runs 2690 fps

Win 70 HBV#2, 26" factory barrel (set back slightly to shorten throat, don't remember/wasn't told which reamer was used):

Lapua brass, GM210M, 44.0 gr Varget, 175 SMK runs 2700 fps

I'd suggest 43.5 and work up to as much as 46.0 gr in factory barrel/chamber. If you are running a custom barrel and tighter chamber I'd start at 41.5 and work up to 43.5 gr to see what your rifle likes the best.

JoeM,

I'll go look up the load but 77SMK and N135 or N140 shoots great out of the 1:9 Win 70s, touch on the slower side but shoots little groups. I've also had great performance with the 75 gr JLK bullets but I'm also at 5000' ASL so with those it maybe a bit more iffy.

I've not duplicated the performance, got side tracked with full up F-class open rifle, but 80 SMK with 24.4 gr of N140, IMI brass, GM205M, seated to be about 0.010" off lands (2870 fps with 11 fps ES) shot a 5 round group at 600 yards that was under 2". May well have been a fluke, 5 round group does not mean much when you need 15 for record but it did show some promise. Helps being up in some thinner air as well.

FCS

FCS
Central , NM, USA - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 16:35:17 (ZULU)

Sitting position.

Go cross legged, "indian style" for right handed cross left over right and let the instep of your right foor support your left knee and the heel of your left foot support your right knee. If you are real flexible really tuck your feet up underneath ya. Dont bend over too far even if you are flexible enough, either rest your elbows inside your knees in the meaty area formed where your thigh and calf meet or bend over a little more and rest your triceps on your knee caps/shin. The concept here is bone on meat not bone on bone.

If you bend over too far you will put your diaphram in a bind and get pusle beat that will cause you to bounce, Loosening your belt can help with the pusle beat.

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 17:35:07 (ZULU)

Click on my name for pics...

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 17:42:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

Pat asked about loads in the .308 Winch. Believe most of us are using Varget. I still haven't found anything better. Use a 175 gr. SMK, 44.0 gr Varget, Lapua case, and Fed 210M primer. Velocity is 2,650 FPS from my 26" Obermeyer barrel. Accuracy is scary. Problem remains the loose nut behing the butt-plate.

Blacktails! Steve Nelson, my hunting partner and gunsmith, went to the range to test some rifles and loads yesterday. As it was early he stopped to hunt for an hour or so...the upshot is he bagged a nice little 3-point(six-point for you easterners). He used factory Seller & Bellot 7 X 57. It's about $8 a box of 20 and has a bullet that looks like the German TUG. Frontal shot at 50 yards penetrated through the neck and down the spine for 2+ feet. Bullet held together nicely. Steve indicated, now that he's seen how they perform, that he wouldn't hesitate to use them on elk!

If any of you want a picture of the beast let me know and I'll e-mail it to you. Also, pictured is the 7 X 57 "Mauserlicher" he built for himself. If any of you want a true "best" quality rifle Steve is the man. Know I stump pretty hard for his work, but believe he is one of the best in the business. That and he's a good friend and prince of a fella...

That rifle is a custom mix of Mauser upper and Steyr Mannlicher rotary feed lower, neatly jointed together. Very nice rifle. Shoots as good as it looks. So far, Steve has a nice buck antelope and the 3 point blacktail to it's credit, this season. Swine!

Geez, didn't mean to run off at the mouth like that. Time to go work with the miscreants. It's my Friday and am looking forward to a couple days off.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 18:38:44 (ZULU)

Got to vent.

UPS SUCKS!

Got a call from Bill Collector today. Awhile back ESP overseas bought some slings. They wanted to use thier UPS Account to ship on. I took the lsings to UPS and gave them all the ESP Billing info. A few weeks went by and then UPS called and told me thier employee filled out a Domestic billing form and he should have filled out an International Form. This cause a billing issue as they could not bill International accounts on Demoestic forms. They asked me to pat the 199.00 dollar bill. I said to just fill out the forms again correctly. Replay was "Thats too much work" I said well if you want to get paid fix your own mistakes. I again gave them ESP's billing info. This ends with her telling em my UPS account can not be used unless I pay for thier mistake. I explain I dont have an UPS Account and wont ever now.

Awhile oges by and I get a nasty phone call from UPS demanding I pay. I say bill ESP. They now say ESP refused to pay. I contact ESP and he says "just have them bill me. "I never refused to pay" "I have never been billed" Then things turn to email with ESP sending the UPS person emails saying put on his account or bill him if they want to be paid a different way. She eamils me and says it would be easier for me to pay and have ESP pay me back. I say no clean up your own mess. ESP sends many emails attempting to be billed so they can pay. ESP has done everything to try and get the bill sent to them.

Awhile goes by and today I am called by one freakin idiot collector. She speaks Ebonics or something similar. I explain the whole situation, in a nice way and she replys its my faults "You should have gone behind the counter and made sure they filled out the correct forms" Now I ask you if a UPS Employee fills out the incorrect forms how would I know and what would happen if I jumped over the counter to see he was filling out the right forms? She says they wont bill ESP and tells me to pay it an dask ESP to pay me back. I say your mistake you clean it up. I go onto say I saw all the emails between ESP and UPS where ESP is just about begging for a bill to pay.

This ends with me hanging up after she was threatening my credit because I wont pay. I hope they take me to court on this. Cant imagine the judges face when he hears all this.

This is no doubt I am here so I am easy to go after, even though its not my fault. I wonder whats wrong with a company that is just too lazy to do things right and hold others accountable for their mistakes.

Mike Miller/Undude

Mike Miller
CA, - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 20:12:54 (ZULU)

Mike,

Never deal with the same level in UPS again...insist on a supervisor and keep heading to the top, giving each level just one chance to make it right..

If they refuse to give you their manager (generally considered by corp America as an absolute requirement), simply write a letter to the CEO indicating your next stop is an investigative reporter with the LA TV news...

I am pretty certain you will get results.

Oh, and yes, a small claims judge would definitely enjoy this one <g>

medicjim
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 20:19:53 (ZULU)

For all the Illinois people. Urgent!

YOUR GUN RIGHTS TO BE ATTACKED ON WEDNESDAY

On Wednesday morning, 20 October, IL Attorney General Lisa Madigan will be joined by IL State Senator John Cullerton and IL State Representative Karen May at a press conference during which they will introduce the "2005 ILLINOIS ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN." This proposed legislation will include bans on most, if not all, semiautomatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns. It will also ban black powder rifles and any other firearm having a bore of .50 caliber or greater. The legislation will also require you to turn in your guns to the police or face forced confiscation.

THINGS YOU MUST DO IMMEDIATELY:

1. Call Attorney General Madigan's offices at (312) 814-3000 AND (217) 782-1090 and tell the operator to tell Lisa Madigan that you are a law-abiding supporter of the 2nd Amendment and that you resent her attack on your rights.

2. Call Senator John Cullerton's offices at (217) 782-7260 AND (773) 883-0770 and tell the operator that you are a law-abiding supporter of the 2nd Amendment and that you OPPOSE Cullerton's Assault Weapons Ban.

3. Call Representative Karen May's offices at (217) 782-0902 AND (847) 831-5858 and tell the operator that you are a law-abiding supporter of the 2nd Amendment and that you OPPOSE May's Assault Weapons Ban.

4. Pass this alert along to all your friends and tell them to make those phone calls NOW.

5. Please post this alert to any and all Internet bulletin boards that you may belong to.

GREET GUN GRABBER OBAMA IN DOWNERS GROVE

Rabid gun grabber and Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate, Barack Obama, will be making a whistle stop at the Downers Grove METRA station at approximately 5:00 PM on Wednesday, 20 October. We would like all area gun owners to be on hand to give Obama a "rousing" welcome to Downers Grove. Please be on hand at the train station before 5:00 PM. Be prepared to shout, holler and give gun grabber Obama a piece of your mind. The local Republican Headquarters is located at 5150 S. Main, they will have signs and other things you can wave at Obama.

Double Tap
IN, USA - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 20:50:07 (ZULU)

Brogers,

When I sit cross legged, my knees will reach the floor. I was looking at Jeff Cooper's book on the rifle last night. All of the sitting positions require the legs to be up higher than mine are naturally. I can raise them, but then I am not as stable. I will give what Gooch said a try. I am also going to look into the Mawhinney position.

I was working on braced kneeling last night, and think I have found a position that is pretty stable. It is uncomfortable, so it must be right. ;)

I need to dry fire the various positions.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 21:58:30 (ZULU)

JIm; I looked at Gooch's reference and that's good but would result in problems for me due to the fusions but I've been searching for a good sitting position for a long time. Went to a match, where it was required once and had to basically just kneel behind a prone bipod with one knee higher than my head to even get it done. Then some guy was wheeled out in a damn wheel chair with a board and sand bag attached to take care of that part of the match. I parked in handicapped zones for 2 weeks just to get even. Sometimes we go too far in this society for handicapped people sometimes. I didn't protest but another fella did and they said, "Well he's sitting!"

Brogers
Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 22:21:08 (ZULU)

Well.....my little buddy went to other set of grandparents today to spend the night and go with them tomorrow to pick up the newlyweds from the airport. Came home, Doughlady was gone, not a sound in the house, and there wasn't a 34" sniper baby tugging at my jeans to go outside. That sucks, miss the little bugger already. I wish I was independently wealthy so I could quit work and become a full time baby sitter.

Doc..........you can shoot a different riffle each match and so long as you stay in the 223/308 your scores count as FTR. I might bring an AR or three myself. JR is going to shoot Open for the regular matchs and then join us pod people for the team match in FTR. The Cockerham clan will all be coming with bag full of Savages. The explaination on the canting made my brain hurt!!!

Yote.........dang mouseguns ain't worth a hoot for anything but eyecandy but they become an addiction. Would still pick up one of my AK's for grab and go work. I'm trying to cypher a way to make an AK accurate as an AR but I probably won't live that long. Sniper baby kept me up most the night. After eating choclate pudding, potato chips, sour pickles, Romain noodles, 2 bananas, Goldfish crackers, and chicken nuggets; his belly didn't make it and he hurled about the time we laid him down. Yep, even grandparents need to quit spoiling the younguns.

Gooch.....tried the rice paddy squating position a couple years ago. Took me a month to get out of it.

FCS.........you got 2700 with only 43gr Varget???????

Pat......my most accurate two loads with Varget were using 43.5 and 44.5 gr with 175's. I'm gonna start doing serious load testing after the next (my last of the year) match this coming weekend. I'm getting a hankering to try 155's and 190's, also 178 AMAX's. Of course trying this will lead to a million other questions that I'll have to bore everone with.

Moe...........get with the program man!!!!!! Hook up a bayonet on that now legal lug and skewer the sucker. Can't see enough blood just whooping em up side the head! Then, like in the movies, you'll have to fire a shot to get off the bayonet when it hangs up. We laughed at this concept two weeks ago. I have yet to understand why they would even put that in a movie. Ifin I'm in bullet range, won't be using no knife!

Rob01........why didn't you younguns just open the window a little more? hehehehehehe

Bearman........improvements in cancer treatments happen quickly. I think medicjim will confirm that. If there is any disease that I can think of that has the most potential for a cure, IMHO it's the big C. One of the things that I like about our Oncology program is that they don't just treat the cancer, they treat the patient. Patients, even though it is tough, have to keep their moral up anyway they can.

Did I say work sucks........? Bolt out!

Bolt
Wind challenged....., NC, - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 22:34:58 (ZULU)

As far as unsupported shooting positions go you aint gonna find any better than in that USMC manual. Sorry if that sounds concieted but the USMC is the only service which still teaches them. They are the same positions you will see the service rifle teams using. Throw in a properly attached and adusted sling and you are good to go. Notice I never said the positions would be comfortable at first and you need someone to work with you on them. Relax into them and let the sling take most of the weight of the rifle.

Remember there are other elements to a good position than just the mechanics of the position itself. Grip, stockweld, pulling the weapon into your shoulder etc etc makes a lot of difference. Learning from a book is rough.... Ya need a coach..

Having said that the sitting position has been bastardised over the years. Its primary purpose was for shooting down slopes. The open legged position was the only one taught for years since it is the most practical for that purpose, then match shooting started and now we have the crossed ankle and legged positions.

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, October 20, 2004, at 23:52:48 (ZULU)

OK, time for some serious mousegun questions.... I have a Chandler rifle in 30-06, so I'm starting on the "patrol carbine" companion. I have a "standard" AR that I built for IPSC 3-gun, and by itself its certainly adequate... but even with a fluted barrel (and 1.5-6 scope on an ARMS 36 mount) its a bit on the heavy side for the "carbine in hand" while travelling to the stalk with the long-range rifle.

So, a couple of questions: opinions on the CavArms plastic receiver (why not go all plastic... matches the Glock 23 better?). Also, for a 16" lightweight barrel (and I mean as light as can be had and still hold around MOA accuracy), recommendations? And finally (I know that's more than a "couple"), preferences on telescopic buttstocks... plastic or aluminum?

This should start something... or maybe there's such an obvious answer that I should have known it all along and y'all can cast aspersions at my intelligence?

Thanks!

Steve

Steve
Butte, Mt, 'Merica - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 03:58:36 (ZULU)

Need some help here. At one time someone posted a M118LR load with RE-15 from the early days when Hercules/Alliant ran LC. Had it and lost it. Anyone have it? Think 43.5 was about right, but since it's my face by the receiver I'd like confirmation.

OK, I'm stubborn, I've got 2 ex-wives who'd agree. Early testing showed that I've gotta improve my skyscreen mounting and the RE-15 is VERY consistant if slow. The slow may the the skyscreen issue.

WR Moore
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 04:53:45 (ZULU)

JimT:

The PCR does have the 1:8 as I wanted to get some heavy rounds out. Will play with it a bit and see what shakes. The scope issue is my only quirk. Still playing the variable versus 10x fixed for most uses.

Hope the young'uns shot well. We're having an issue with one of our two new hires and his Glock. I'm not sure he will make the cut for that and other issues.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 04:57:20 (ZULU)

Boltster; Man I know how you feel. Got a couple more days and then off to Ma-ma. At least he's not too far away. I guess eventually we just get too old for that business but it don't get any easier to part with em. Those 178's shoot zactly half the size of match kings in my SAUM. Don't have a take on the .308 though. I got to get some more in stock.

Brogers
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 05:21:22 (ZULU)

re: Telescoping buttstock material

I understand the aluminum version superceeds the plastic version

for two reasons. One - issues with the plastic version becoming brittle in very cold weather. Two - aluminum has less of a tendancy to shatter if struck with rifle fire.

I would suspect they could have solved the issues with the plastic version by selecting a different polymer material, but apparently they chose simply to abandon the plastic version in favour of aluminum.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone else will now chime in...

ob net humor:

The way to get an answer in a discussion group isn't to ask a question, just make a definitive statement and wait for the other members to correct you :-)

For example, if you want to know what is the color of the sky,

don't ask "What is the color of the sky?".

Instead, make a definitive statement - "I have been told by reliable sources that the sky is green.".

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 12:56:49 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs...

Thanks to all you guys for the reloading info on the 175s. My shooting partners think I need to come out of the dark ages an start shooting 175 instead of the 168s.

Them 168s shoot so well though, but I have noticed my wind calls aren't near as good again since I went back to shooting the 308 instead of the 6.5s(HA) I have done some serious computer time on the Lapua 155s compared to all the rest of the bullets out there an its scarry if they will shoot well. With my gun they should be nearly 4 to 5MOA flatter at 1000yds an be anywhere from 1.5 to 2MOA better on wind than my 168s!!!!

Another bullet to look at will be Lapuas 170 Base Lock it was originally designed to shoot in the 308s an still compete with the trajectory of the 300WM. It has a BC of .525 so it will really fly.

I ordered a box of the Lupa 155s so will test them an see how they do. Anyone shooting the 155s?? What powder seems to work the best for them??? Thinking of trying Varget to start off.

Just picked up a .243 ADL with the synthetic stock last night, new never fired, for a future project got a good deal. I was cleaning it an adjusting the trigger, figure I will use it for coyotes this winter. When cleaning the barrel it has a noticable "Tight spot" in it about 3/4 the way through. You can really feel it with the patch when you push it through. I used JBs on it an its still there. I see Remingtons quality control is still good.

The last .243 I had was a new rifle with a junk barrel too. It had chatter marks about a inch from the end of the barrel. Remington took it back an sent me the .260 I have now but they sent the new "Clip" style an I hate it. Damn thing shoots to good though to get rid of so I just cuss it an shoot it.

Pat
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 15:08:44 (ZULU)

Gents,

Ever notice that in Turkey season you kick up deer a'plenty, and deer season yeilds an unnatural number of turkey flushing? Do they read DNR pamphlets or what?

Saw Pres. Bush yesterday--that man charmed the wife witha hug (and the whole room) like nobodies' business. Woulda been a bit jealous if not for his highly evident moral character. It doesn't come across on TV, but he can work a crowd in person--I was impressed as hell, and it was genuine. Anyone watching the 6 o'clock news on WEAU saw me explaining that I'm voting for Bush (and that anyone who uses US casualties as a guage for failure is keeping score for the enemy...how many ever heard enemy casualty/ arrest figures since Keery is campaigning?) Oh, I went off on security issues...and I came across "off the cuff" like I had a speech written (didn't--pure passion). Surprise was, even though I was just one of dozens interviewed, they played my entire interview and none other. No uniform (against the law)--but a Army-Ranger jacket with OIF/ ODS/ Panama patches all over it with a 5th SFG(A) desert ball-cap perched on my mellon. I mentioned "being there" along the way...in all, not bad talking points and props, and surprise airing of the whole argument for Bush! I feel good enough to go door to door this weekend, since the local GOP asked nicely.

Kerry is skerry...bigtime! See below for even more details:

The Washington Post ran a story yesterday <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46225-2004Oct19.html> about John Kerry's approach to foreign policy. Here's one paragraph from that article:

"Kerry's belief in working with allies runs so deep that he has maintained that the loss of American life can be better justified if it occurs in the course of a mission with international support. In 1994, discussing the possibility of U.S. troops being killed in Bosnia, he said, 'If you mean dying in the course of the United Nations effort, yes, it is worth that. If you mean dying American troops unilaterally going in with some false presumption that we can affect the outcome, the answer is unequivocally no.' "

Read it again, folks. Then read it again after that. This isn't some ancient yammering from Kerry back in the 1970's. This is contemporary Kerry. This is Kerry after having served a decade in the Senate. This is Kerry saying that it OK for Americans to die fighting for a cause ratified by the United Nations, but not OK for American soldiers to sacrifice their lives just fighting for the United States ... fighting for their country. America is not worth dying for. Dying for the United Nations is.

(Boortz webpage)

Geoff: While you were out playing in the cold rain, I was sheparding tots around a water park a few miles east of ya (5 hours worth on sunday!). heheh---the hot tub sure was comfy!

Bill: I'll just throw some bike wheels on my porta-bench, get me a blue sticker for the truck, and come take you on! Hey, I'm sitting ain't I? Hahaha. I kinda betting on disability anyways...you should hear my knees! I can't--deaf in one ear, but that is besides the point.

Here's a question: Right shulder has a click (bursitis?) and occassional pain in certain motions (Mil-press for one). While shooting 308s over 40 rds, my right hand goes numb---like it's asleep and the shoulder has a dull ache. Annoying, but doesn't bother me otherwise (I know I may flinch, so I don't).

Anyone ever deal with this?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 17:40:38 (ZULU)

Joe M - start your self-healing research with a google search on "brachial plexus".

medicjim
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 18:31:33 (ZULU)

Pat, at long last I can return some data to you (you mailed me some good .260 data years back!)

I've been very pleased with the Lapua 155's.

http://leveron.com/Lapua155ScenarData.html

http://leveron.com/Chrono-Results-hot-cold.htm

In addition to what I had above for data, I worked up to 47.0 of Tac in my AICS, at 2.820 length. This shot fine (pressure is there, but no pierced primers, etc. during several 107 degree shooting days). Very accurate load, easily under 1/2 MOA if I do my part.

I can also now state that they produced some spectacular results on an full gown Aoudad sheep at about 125 yards; far side of a very slightly quartering shot yielded 3 broken ribs, and the far shoulder was also completely broken.

John L

John L
Mid MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 19:41:03 (ZULU)

MedicJim, Hmmmm. If this is the underlying problem, Either building muscle mass (could use a little there anyway)--or a shooting jacket ought to lessen the problem. I'll give oth a try. Come to think of it, when I shoot in warmer weather, it is more noticable. Tee-shirts as opposed to jackets. I wonder if the nerves are really all "that" exposed to the butt kicking? Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 20:06:28 (ZULU)

To anyone that is going to be at Badlands for Phase 2 in November 2004. I am bringing a big pot of chili for the class. I know there are some that think you have to be from Texas to make good chili but this will beat most no matter where it is from. We will have to eat it early in the class so the after effects dont take over during the 36 hr. FTX. Dont want to give away our positions because of scent indicators! Looking forward to seeing those I met at the classes last year.

Big Toe
IN, USA - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 20:11:28 (ZULU)

You boys are sure pulling at my strings talking those Lapua 150's up like that. Hummmmm!

Joe; my SAUM is about to ruin my shoulder. I hate to resort to wimpy remedies and shoulder pads but it's really hurting there. Since I've gotten to the point I can't cover much real estate walking I've increased the weight of some of my guns. The problem is that it doesn't heal up between shootings like it once did. I put one of those "Sniper Stocks" by Choate on it last night. I' hope it helps.I guess I'll check Jim's recommendation out too.

Pat; Rest assured that Remington's quality control for barrels is just about where it was 10 years ago. I still have the best luck with the stainless ones. They seem to be made somewhere else. Or in a different part of the plant. Pat I wonder if most of the apparent lack of popularity with the .260 isn't their lousy barrels. You don't suppose they are farming them out to RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...naw they ain't that bad.

Try those 178 A-max's Pat. They will kick anythings butt I've seen.

Hard to find though. I'm afraid Hornady will quit making them for lack of sales cause nobody is carrying them. They say .495 for the coef. but they shoot quite a bit higher for me at 1K. Haven't challenged the wind but they have to be good. Groups were half the size of 168 Match Kings. And my 08 doesn't shoot the 175's as good as either.

Side note.

These Nigerian money schemes bring some amusing e-mail when you answer them. One was really pissed and even went so far as to chew me out for wasting his time when the choppers didn't show up to rescue his princess. Ain't that something. My mail hasn't increased but my mail box is bottomless so based on Jim's theory you might not want to play with em but I love it when they bite.

Brogers
Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 20:23:58 (ZULU)

Well been out of the net for a couple of days so will try to catch up and see what s**t I can stir. :)

Had fun with the 3rd ID setting up some guns for their next deployment. Still got a class in session, have them doing snaps and movers for the first time tomorrow. This should be fun.

Joe M. - Tell goat that he is getting a bit long in the tooth for that stuff, atleast that is what my wife keeps telling me. say hi to him for me when you see him or Jenny next.

Vernon - Agree, I lived through Carter's debacle and was in the Canal Zone when he gave away the canal. What a suck butt, and yes Kerry is worse. He is now pandering tot he gun owners and hunters with his BS hunts. He seems that we are not smart enough to read his other bleatings when he is sucking up to his true cause of complete gun ban.

As far as bad intel, you can not tell if it is bad or not. Character of the President is told by what he does witht he intel given to him. POTUS decided that the risk of a possible attack on the US with WMD was too great to sit back and BEG France's permission to protect ourselves, as it turns out France was making big bucks sells wepaons to Saddam. 20/20 hindsight of the libberal left now says AWHA! no weapons of mass destruction. Kerry would have played the UN game and would have been afraid of the preemptive strike regardless of the intel. Hell, look at Clinton's terms and Kerry's bleatings of WMDs being in Iraq. He stated flat out that they existed and we "should do something". Well POTUS did and if he had not the connect the dots group would have gone wild had the been an attack on the US with Iraqi WMDs. That alone is justifucation for wiping out despot and egomaniac wtih a hugh army. Missed in all this is the Libyian connection where Quadaffi has turned over a new leaf and has "seen the light". What would have been his status if we had done nothing? Opps end of Polie Science corner.

Bolt - Try this exercise, look at th mirage and the apparent speed taht you see it moving accross your front. If you think you can walk to keep up with it then call it a 2 to 4 mph wind. If you need to jog to keep up with it then call it a 5 to 7 mph wind. If you need to run to keep up with it then you can call that one a 8 to 10 mph wind. If you have to get in your car to keep up then go with a 10 to 12 mph and by then it is getting too thin to really read. Once you have made up your mind that it is one speed, stay with that speed and make your shot. If it is down wind then you will know haow to adjust the next time you see that speed, if it is right then you are on the money. But if you change your mind before the shot you mind does not have a good reference to learn and base the error.

Only strong head on or tail winds will chnage the strike of the bullet and then not that much. Head winds low and tail winds high. Head winds bleed off MV whild tail winds hold the MV higher longer.

Mike - We were laughing our butts off over that one. It is dammed hard to keep up with what we have. Doubling the size is not something that just happens because "King Kerry" decrees it. (Unless he decides that the standards are getting in the way, then he could just issue Green Berets to all and say "I did it!" See, as has been found out, if you doulbe the number of students you triple the failure rate. YOu get to a point of deminishing returns and the next to fall is the standard.

Morris - You get my email on the package? I have sent a set of patches that was worn in Iraq, one set from A'stan, a US flag flown on the gun vehicle that a sniper used to get around coutry on in Iraq, and my unit patch when I was the NCOIC of SOTIC in the 80s, to represent SOTIC. They should be at your door shortly.

Brogers - Careful wind flags lie! Sometimes a little, sometimes alot!!! :) Pat has the idea, SWAG works every dam time, well almost anyway.

Charles Hunt - Taht is why we use the experienced sniper as the spotter on our sniper teams. He can be the difference in a hit or a miss onthe first shot. And is the definate reason for a hit or a miss on the follow up shot.

Bipod problems - Mentioned a long time ago that the bipod must be in a neutral position to not bounce and shoot high. When you pull the stock back into your shoulder, push forward with your toes to shift your weight forward and relieve the strain on the bipod legs. This alone will stop most pogoing, and spronging (heck are those words or am I making s**t up again?)

I thought the frisbee thing came form Mike Miller about three years ago.

US Gov't types at Butner. One of hte guys was my studetn about 3 years ago, one is now my student. The big guy, Major, wants to work at our area, and two guys htat were there but hiding was two instructors form our commitee. No, I was down at Fort Stewart enjoying the sights of Hinesville GA. :)

Joe M - Glad you don't think of me as a sociopath anymore. :)

Doc King - NATO means dirt but still chamber. Yes it is on the large side of spec.

Religion and war, the dumbest dam reason to go to war in the world.

Pete C - Sent yo a second package containing the three LOs that I left on my desk when I mailed the others, sorry man.

Well have not caught up yet but will give you guys a break.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 21:42:18 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I would suggest taking a look at www.mattfurey.com. He has a lot of good info about shoulder issues. You first of all need to lay off the weights until the pain goes away. You can get chest expanders from Lifeline Fitness that will help get your shoulder fixed. In essence you become your own physical therapist. There are bodyweight exercises you can do to take care of it too.

You can PM me for more details if you like. Been there, done that.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Thursday, October 21, 2004, at 23:45:48 (ZULU)

Joe M - I agree with Jim T... give the area a rest, consider NSAIDS (aspirin, ibuprophen, etc)....the nerves may be irritated..takes time for them to heal...

The whole thing could even be caused by stress..BTDT. Sometimes, I get the numbness in both hands for days...

Once healed... moderate and proper weight training will help prevent it from coming back

medicjim
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 01:13:23 (ZULU)

Home alas! I love being in Africa, but it's good to be home as well. Giraffe skinning, not a job for the timid or weak, let me tell you! Six guys, two hours (easily a new land speed record, but we cheated-one of them was a taxidermist) then another six hours to cape the head and salt the hyde.

The Savage 116 Safari Express worked flawlessly. And a real pleasure to shoot as well! It had just a bit more punch than my trusty old 375 H&H, but not an eye crosser. I was impressed. Woodleigh weld-cores failed miserably though. Jacket/core separation on two that went into the giraffe and bad failure on a blue wildebeest as well.

Marius,

Worried? you don't know the half of it! My Afrikaans is rather limited, but all I got at first is "hey Rob, that friend of yours coming from Pretoria was in a car accident on the way here, some neighbors are bringing him on a bakkie." Karel and I were in the bos and had only those details! I'm very glad you and Marnus got there safely and didn't have any mishaps getting back. We will definitely do it again next season (with a different tracker!) and maybe Marnus will be able to shoot a nice buck. He's a heck of a shot with my "light" rifle! (14lb H-S tactical in 22-250AI) Might go to the Free State next year to stretch out Jody's and my 6.5x284's. My wife, Karel's wife and whoever else wants to join us will be there too, but I might sneak off for a few days to hit the bushveld again. I love it up there!

Rob

Robert Martin
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 01:25:53 (ZULU)

P.M. Hayden,

I had a Tikka 595 come into the shop today to have a scope mounted. It's a pretty new one because it's a Beretta import. It's drilled and tapped for two Weaver #61 bases and also has the dovetails for Tikka mounts. From what I can find some of the older ones had round receivers and used FN bases. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Joe M.,

Will ask the young honeys at the "pain palace" when I go in for my exercise session tomorrow. They're licensed physical therapists and really know their stuff. They are also very easy on the eyes!!!! I can elevate my heart rate without even getting near a treadmill! ;o)

yoteBait,

One of the guys that was on both of the Kansas dog safariis is the editor of a local newspaper. Guess he has been getting AP info about your latest round of excitement. Claimed all of his expended rounds were accounted for.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The foggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 01:47:27 (ZULU)

Brogers & Pat,

If you want a great bullet for single loading in 30 caliber, get some JLK bullets from OK Weber. 175 JLK has .545 BC and the 190 has a .602 BC, I've used both in 308 with great results! Buddy has a 300 WSM that pushes the 210 JLK (BC of .665) to 2850 and he is well inside of 6.5-284 for winddrift. Mr. Knox's bullets are VLD design so for out of the magazine I'd use a different bullet (A-max, SMK, or Lapua) but for single loading I've not found a better bullet!! You can push the JLKs a touch faster then the SMK or A-max as well, I've found that you need up to 0.5 gr more powder with the JLK to optimize accuracy. I contribute that to the J4 jacket being harder then the Sierra/Hornady jacket.

Put some 210 JLKs and H4350 in that 300 SAUM Brogers!! Instantly makes your wind calls better!! :-)

FCS

FCS
Central , NM, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 04:08:15 (ZULU)

Rick:

I did get the info and awaiting the package. Many thanks in advance!

All:

Anyone using CZ receivers and bolt assemblies for projects other than Safari guns? Been wondering after their 700 series went away.

Morris
Seattle, WA, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 04:19:49 (ZULU)

Pat- I use 155 SMK's for the flatter trajectory. 44.5 gr IMR 4064/LC match brass & WW LR primers give me 2900 fps and same wind drift at 175's. And by the way- your DR email account is screwed up.

JoeM- didn't get to check the site's on your clicking shoulder but............I used to have a click in my left shoulder that would show up when doing pushups. One afternoon my shoulder popped back in during pushups and hasn't done that since.

WR Moore
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 05:07:53 (ZULU)

Rick; gee thanks for the precision advise my son...:).

No body has felt more wind than I. Nobody judges it worse than me.

Doc; yeah I remember the gentleman you mention. I owe you a e-mail about the darn thing. Watch your box. Gonna wait till tomorrow and see what breaks.

FCS; takin notes, taken notes. thanks.

Brogers
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 05:37:17 (ZULU)

Not sure which 175's WR Moore is using, but my 155 scenar load (@ 2960) beats my 175 Sierra MK load (@ 2725) pretty easily, both in trajectory and in wind drift.

I am still a fan of the M3LR scope, and I am using Leupold's .300 WM collar with great success; it tracks with it just fine at every 100 yards out to 1000.

Now if only the rumors are true about Sierra working on redesigning their 155 to be much the same; have been trying to get some more 1k packs of the 155's for some time now, down to my last 2k, and loading season is almost upon me!

John L

P.S. BT, you are going to make friends early next month if that chil/i/e is good :) Will see you at Badlands.

John L
Mid MO, U.S.A. - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 05:37:35 (ZULU)

Got this off of a yahoo list.

"I have read on the Fullbore list that one list

member says that he has on reliable sources that

Beretta Australia has issued a recall on SS Tikka

/ Sako rifles after 3 have blown up due to a

material defect that can cause then to blow up

after only 5 rounds.

Others speculated that the fault was due to alloy

steel billets from Swedish feed stock. They

seemed to be impressed that Sako immediately

recalled the rifles with defective barrels unlike

MAB who are still dragging the feet after some of

their barrel burst. Rifles with MAB barrels have

been banned in many European competitions. It was

speculated that the Sakos might also be banned.

And what about barrels from other makers who used

the same Swedish steel?"

Thought ya'll might wanna know......

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 06:01:24 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just a post of some random thoughts and...

Will have to try Lapua 155 Scenar's and 155 SMK's. Haven't worked up loads, etc. This might be a good way to go in my M1A's. Worth a try. Anybody out there using these in gas guns? If so, do you have a favorite load you would be willing to share?

Morris, the CZ 550 Magnum (BRNO 602) is used frequently for Tactical Rifles from G.A. Precision and others. Usually, rifles that require the long action to function with dangerous game loads. Cheap plug, but the G.A. Precision tactical to be accurate and well made. Recommend them and the .338 Lapua without reservation.

I have found the workmanship from CZ to be excellent. They have retained the classic Mauser heritage and controlled round feed. I would like to see a three position safety as part of the cocking piece...that is my only negative comment.

Robert M., You're trip sounds like a hoot! Caping out a Giraffe...the neck alone would take quite some time. Sounds like you had a super trip. I'm jealous.

Jimmy Carter and the Canal. Real smart, Carter. Now the Chinese control it. Damn, we built it and paid for it. Why is it when we try to help a country out they wind up pissing on us? Why bother...

Joe, Rick, Gooch, and all. Double the size of SF? They have got to be kidding. Can't see it happening without the previously mentioned degradation of quality. Why not? It worked for our school system...

;-)

The SF has a proud history. Most do not know what they have done in support of our country. Lowering the standards will fill billets with bodies, but little else. SF is a heart and soul commitment. Standards high for damn good reasons. What really conerns me is the lack of concern, from some elements of government, for our people and their lives. Seems some elements of government has deemed them "disposable" . I'll leave it at that.

On a closing note...I filled out my mail in ballet for our Nov. 4 election. We are lucky we have the right to make choices and enjoy our freedoms. I sincerely believe that if Kerry/Edwards team is elected the we will see our rights vanish to be replaced by U.N. "law" and probably enforced by the "doubled" SF or those of another country.

At this point all I can do is pray and hope the country comes to it's senses.

Today, there was a man beaten to death in Corvallis, OR. His three assailents were 15/16. They will be tried as adults. That means a couple years at a juvenile facility then into our adult system.

Hope Bubba gives them a hearty welcome...

This is what our "touchy feely" to child rearing has gotten us to...

Damn! I'm ranting again. Sorry, gents.

All for now...blacktail hunting tomorrow.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 08:13:17 (ZULU)

John L- I'm going from book values at 2500/2600 on the SMK 175's. I think I've fired maybe 20-25 rounds of them and am still trying to work up a load-mainly out of curiousity. Before I bought any bullets I looked at ballistic tables and decided the 155 SMK was much superior to the 175 for trajectory and at least equal on known wind. Boo-coo rounds later haven't found any reason to change my mind. Do have to conceed the heavier bullet might be more resistant to sudden, unexpected gusts.

Tried the Sceanar 155's at 200 yards and wasn't sufficiently impressed to keep using them. Maybe if I'd had a longer range available I'd have found something to justify the price difference. They do look sleeker.

Quit looking on 'puters for load data and found the RE-15 load written in the margin of my Sierra manual. 44.3 gr sounds a bit much, but am gonna break out the cronograph in the morning and resume testing. Guess it's helpful to be a governement entity and not have to worry about liability. And besides-it's just dumb grunts that'd get hurt. THAT'S SARCASM GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WR Moore
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 08:45:00 (ZULU)

Joe,

Since no one else mentioned it, I've had those symptoms and much worse for the last 11 years and it was determined to be a bulging disc between c-6 and c-7. It doesn't sound like yours may be that bad yet so you might consider a spine institute (real dr. not a wannabe) and some neck traction. The traction device is a bag of water and you vary the weight by quanity of water, rope and head wrap. Human head weighs about 7-9 pounds so start light(half) or whatever doc recommends. Any tingling in either hand? Does the whole hand go numb or just specific fingers/thumb? It might be as simple as modifying your cheekrest/weld.

John

PS, Gooch,

I saw a blown up T3 on another website less than 2 weeks ago. IIRC it was from NZ.

FWIW

John
Bruce Robinson July 1,1949- Oct 2, 2004 The Mildot Master., IN, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 11:43:08 (ZULU)

John,

You ain't seen my human head...I refer to it as "melon" for a reason.

If traction is due, I think I gots a 16 pound bowling ball around here somewheres...:))

I've compiled a list of what-ails-me for my annual, over-40, flight physical. Time to address some of the wear and tear. The Doc's will do the referrals for any follow-up, plus I have Tricare-Remote up here in the boonies. That makes self-referrals a little easier to come by if needed. I added "shoulder" to my list based on the comments here. I was unsure if it was chronic or acute....sounds kinda chronic now and worthy of a medical opinion.

Dang!

Health Country too!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 15:23:27 (ZULU)

Thanks for the 155 loads guys!!!

John L..

Your data is about where I wanted to be. I was hoping I could reach 2950+ range to have the 155s really make a difference. I am pushing my 168s at 2800 so I have a fast barrel.

What kind of accuracy were you getting with yours?? What did you find to be the best powder for your set up?? I am hoping the Varget will shoot well for me.

My 168s shoot extremly well at long range. I have 4 or 5 three shot groups in the 3.5" range at 900 with them. Thats why I have been reluctant to switch to anything else. However when Jr. spanked my ass on some steel with his 6mm-250 a couple of weeks ago because of wind, Then rubbed it in on top of it, I decided to see if I could find a bullet that would gain some of the wind advantage back in the 308 I had with the 6.5s. (I hate to miss because of a poor wind call)Thanks again for the data.

Yotebait..

I love the A-maxs in the 6.5s they have always outshot the Sierras in my 6.5x284 an 260s at long range. They fly flatter because with the same load they are a little faster. My current 260 seems to like the 140 Sierras because it likes the bullet closer to the throat. All my others liked a little jump. The A-Max an the 142s will not fit my mag when loaded out to touch the lands. So its the 140 Sierras for this rifle.

For some reason I have never tried the A-Maxs in my 308s. I shot some of the old Hornady match bullets an they shot well but never got around to the A-Maxs.

Rick...

Once again you speak words of wisdom. I would love to meet you an be able to shoot with you someday. I sometimes think people with all the wind flags over think wind. I check it where I am, look at whats going on down range, an as Mike says, "Dial it an dump it". Then hope like hell I guessed right.

It seems to work pretty well for me most the time but maybe its just because I shoot in it alot out here. If you ever find yourself out in the middle of the country don't hesitate to call. We could go out an shoot in the wind an check out our SWAG theory, South Dak. always has plenty of it(HA).

Pat
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 15:25:44 (ZULU)

An interesting author... Hardy, David T.

Try an Amazon search on his name.

medicjim
Friday, October 22, 2004, at 16:27:44 (ZULU)

Rick B, I got your e-mail that said the information was on the way. I will let you know when I get it. Also let me know when you have that other information (77 grain) ready to send out. Thanks for all your help.

Gooch, It was good to see you again my FRIEND.

Chuck H, I will be in the San Antonio area for a week next month. Drop me an e-mail and maybe we can get together while I am there.

SFC Pete Carpentier JR TXNG
C.C., TX, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 16:32:15 (ZULU)

You dont have to sit and wait for the kerry/Edwards ticket to start trouncing rights. The Kerry champaign and the democratic party have been working very hard to stop Sinclair broadcasting from airing the new program showing what Kerry did in his anti soldier champaign during the viet nam war. They're filing law suits and protesting. But yet, they never treated Fehrenhight 911 the some. Go ligure. Kerry and Edwards are the first socialists that have been on the democratic ticket in the country's history (that we know of).

SteveS
Ft. Bragg AO, NC, USA - Friday, October 22, 2004, at 17:16:55 (ZULU)

Below is a pretty good 77 grain chart Pete

223 77 grain

100’ 60temp 10mph 600 17.3 7.1@10mph

100y 0 0moa 650 20.1 7.9

200 1.8 1.8 700 23.2 8.8

300 4.7 3.0 750 26.5 9.6

350 6.3 3.6 800 30.1 10.5

400 8.2 4.2 850 34.0 11.4

450 10.2 4.9 900 38.3 12.3

500 12.4 5.6 950 42.9 13.3

550 14.7 6.4 1000 47.7 14.2

Rick, I laughed to until I thought about it as just another lie to get in.

Dope it, Dial It , Dump it.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller