Sniper Country Duty Roster

October 2003

Juan update:

My residential power restored after 36 hour interruption.

Others still waiting.

Eye passed over Halifax, 129KM/hr peak, 2.9 meter storm surge

claimed for harbour. I can believe the wind stats, I would guess

more like 1.2 meters on top of a high tide.

Watched the street in front of my apt. turned into a tidal estuary

for a few hours.

Provincial politicians are paying tribute to the paramedic who was killed Monday when hurricane Juan hit.

John Rossiter, 31, died when a tree crushed his ambulance outside the Camp Hill Veterans' Memorial Building in Halifax.

Members of the Nova Scotia legislature paused Tuesday for a minute of silence to mark his death.

The Department of National Defence has committed 600 troops from the navy, army and air force to assist in the clean up of fallen trees and limbs that have clogged streets throughout Halifax Regional Municipality.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 00:13:19 (ZULU)

Robert;

I will keep you in mind when my projects get started. I'm trying to get some planning done first and figure out which I want to do first.

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 00:55:33 (ZULU)

Pat

What velocity are you getting with the 24" barrel and 140's.

Thinking about a M40A1 clone in .260. Might be a winner if 2800 fps is doable. Less recoil and much better wind bucking past 600.

To all

Are there any sniper type matches in the missouri, Illinois, Indiana, or kentucky area?

Thanks

Bill

Bill Byford
IL, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 02:00:28 (ZULU)

Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!! - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 03:42:10 (ZULU)

Hey, what happened to the 10 Leupold Mark 4 M1 scopes that were for sale on the Emporium for $600 each? It seems as if the ad got pulled. Gee, could it have been to good to be true?

Michael
CA, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 06:44:22 (ZULU)

Bruce, Nick A: Two boxes received from each of you; Nick, you have put needed items in the hands of the mighty 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment! A scavenger team swung through (they are waaay north); lucky timing for all concerned. Bruce, I also have a receipt to go pick up one more box at the mail room. The two that arrived, incidentally, will supply a brigade with muzzle caps. My gawd, my warehouse cannot do that on a good day!!!! This is incredible.

Silly assed story:

A female captain comes by needing some help with basic supplies. No problemo---I get it unscrewed and start sending her on her way back north to her forward deployed unit with the duece (she's a paratrooper). She says, "thank you so much Major May-Hon..." I say, "it's pronounced Mann" Then her eyes get wide, and she says, "Ohhhh, you're the "Santa Major" everyone is talking about!!!!! Uh, I mean, errr, Sir, sorry...." I fell off my seat laughing. I explained who the real santas are---a great bunch of shooters and patriots from right here. Still, this is really getting a far reach...we are making an impact far and wide in the theater. My team is prepared to carry on while I am away. Guys and Gal--I think we are starting to corner a market!!!!

I fly tonight;))

I'm turning off the auto forward on this email button today---I can receive email off my link while at home.

Anyone with good name ideas for my new kid, email me tomorrow with the suggestion! I'm thinking of Ronni or Ronald just so I can call my youngest two for dinner: "Ronnie; Raegan---come in for dinner..."

I doubt the wife will go for that one...heheh.

Joe M.

(in)Sain: chicks dig me too! I hand out care boxes...

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:16:15 (ZULU)

What's up in Iraq:

"I'm no longer baby-sitting the pukes from CNN and the canned hams from the networks, but have a combat mission coordinating a bunch of A teams seeking, finding and rooting out the mostly non-Iraqis that are well-armed, well-paid (in U.S. dollars) and always waiting to wail for the press and then shoot some GI in the back in the midst of a crowd.

The only reason the GIs are upset (not demoralized) is that they cannot touch those taunting bags of gas that scream in their faces and riot on cue when they spot a camera man from ABC, BBC, CBS, CNN or NBC. Then they know the next nightly news will be about how chaotic things are and how much the Iraqi people hate us.

Some do hate us. But the vast majority don't, and more and more see that the GIs don't start anything, are by-and-large friendly and very compassionate, especially to kids and old people. I saw a bunch of 19-year-olds from the 82nd Airborne not return fire coming from a mosque until they got a group of elderly civilians out of harm's way. The Iraqis saw it, too.

A bunch of bad guys used a group of women and children as human shields. The GIs surrounded them and negotiated their surrender fifteen hours later and when they discovered a three year-old girl had been injured by the big tough guys throwing her down a flight of stairs, the GIs called in a MedVac helicopter to take her and her mother to the nearest field hospital. The Iraqis watched it all, and there hasn't been a problem in that neighborhood since. How many such stories, and there are hundreds of them, ever get reported in the fair and balanced press?"

That's from a Marine in Iraq. For the rest of his note, click on my name.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 13:44:43 (ZULU)

Fall has come to the mountains.......

time for the annual inventory change in the rack behind the gun room door..Will spend the next few days cleaning the varmint rifles and putting them away for their winter nap..The game rifles will come out of storage to replace the hog busters. .22 Kimber will stay, as will the 84 in .223.

The chuck hunting went well this summer...95 confirmed..The Hornets performed well within their range limitations and provided many evenings of fun stalking..The 40gr. Ballistic tips are great in the hornet.

Going to start shooting the new Dakota 10 250-3000 regularly to tune up for white tails. The Old Sako 250 will look pretty sad in the company of the Dakota on the rack...The Sako has been relegated to the role of rain rifle.

BRogers...May try my hand at calling coyotes again this fall...Have failed miserably in the past...Don't know what the difference is between western and Eastern 'yotes,but nobody around here has had much success calling them..Could be there's too much food or cover or whatever...Maybe we're all just not smart enough here in the Alleghenies.

As hunting season is upon us all I wish you all safe and pleasant outings.

Back to lurk mode

outa here

Markwell
The Alleghenies, WV, - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 13:58:38 (ZULU)

Bill,

With my 24" I am getting 2770 with the 140SMK and 38.5grs of Varget. This is the load it likes for whatever reason. I had problems with vertical stringing with anything else.

I push my 168s to 2800 in my 308 and this 260 load will shoot a tad flatter at 700 on out and has better wind drift. Its also more accurate at the longer ranges. If I was only going to shoot to 500yds I would stay with a 308 but anything past that the 6.5s outshine them. Plus your less affected by wind drift.

This load will nearly mirror the 175s in the 308s with a lot less recoil. I think it takes me around 32MOA to be on at 1000yds if memory serves me correctly.

Pat
Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 14:56:57 (ZULU)

Jon, i'm heading back to work in about 4 hours, there untill monday morning get me knee op'd next tuesday, get me knee sorted and " Bobs me uncle " ahh, Bob's your uncle means to be in the clear, everything sorted, job well done, all is going well, you know, the opposite of " up shit creek without a paddle, or not bieng a happy chappy, in a world of shit, etc. you'd like these new bino's Jon boy, and that old butchers bike was the first one i ever took care of cos i built it from bits my self.it was black and sleek and all them levers where better than these new fangled fly by wire gizmos, and yep the old boy had already bought a few bikes and seen me ride em to ruin,(either the bikes or me ended up busted cos we used to do alsorts of stunts on em) he decided it was time to teach me a lesson, came home with 3 butchers bikes, all scrap, i made a good one out of them. I had to go for check up this morning , pre full anastetic check up, seems heart/ blood pressure is all in order, had a laugh with the nurse/ practice helper, she was filling in some form to go with the blood samples, she said " it looks just like a national lottery form, doesn't it, what will i get if win?) i said, " sorry i'm married" (am i getting old or is the missus putting bromide in me tea? anyways, she proceded to stab me in both arms trying to get some blood samples, after i was begining to look like a pin cushion she went to get the head nurse, ha, by the time she came back i'd take the samples my self, you should have seen her face. Dilemma, tomorow night, beers or hunting, beers or hunting...see what wonders of stress the space race will bring me tomorow morning, i know weizen beer with banana juice is going to win, so why am i fighting it?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 16:02:31 (ZULU)

I have been waiting for those 77 grain sierra HPBT bullets to be made available in lots of 100, but no progress to date...

Anyone interested in going in on a part lot with me, I just don't want to drop close to $100 to be able to try them out. I've got a 22" heavy contour AR upper in 1:8 twist that doesn't like fast moving 69 gr sierras (3000 fps)... I thought maybe I could load up the 77s to approximate the ranging reticle in my springfield / hakko scope.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 16:30:35 (ZULU)

Markwell; I have heard that eastern coyotes are harder to call, than the western ones. It may be due to the terrain and food situation. Basically the dogs I hunt will come to anything that sounds like it's in distress or squealing. I tried mouth calling last weekend. Apparently my "mouth call" sounds like a fawn in distress because I almost had a confrontation with a white tail doe who came bounding in snorting and pawing the ground. But the dogs didn't respond to it. Actually we don't have good luck calling in wooded areas and prefer the sage flats and sand hills for sheer number success. The "set up" is often the most important part of coyote calling and may vary back there in heavy timber.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 16:37:35 (ZULU)

RIFLE RAFFLE ???

I just bought a new Winney Stealth in .308.

Could always use another stick though.

Steve from Chilly New Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 17:10:47 (ZULU)

CMP has real M118LR for sale, 920rds for $400. Can't beat that with a stick. Want to see if your handload matches M118LR? Here's your chance. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 17:54:35 (ZULU)

BERLIN (Reuters) - German police detained a drunken man after finding him sitting behind the wheel of his car asleep in the fast lane of a motorway, authorities said Wednesday.

"He had a bottle of wine between his legs and a rifle next to him. He pulled up there to sleep off the booze," police said.

The man, 28, was believed to be a hunter. He was wearing camouflage clothing and there was a dog in the passenger seat, a police spokesman in the northern city of Schwerin said.

Pete, are you OK?

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 18:03:48 (ZULU)

Medicjim... email inbound from work address RE: 77gr SMK's....

Steve

Steve ~ Hockeyref
When work interferes with life, something needs to change, - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 19:08:29 (ZULU)

Byron, Robert, CDC, Brogers or others,

RE: WTB Remington 700P or 700LTR in .308

I have a dealer that is working towards meeting the new board order on purchasing weapons. I just need to know if CompuServe qualifies as a "real" ISP? Seems to be in the grey area to me, but didn't want to disqualify him until I got clarification. Any additional help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Todd

Todd
Fredonia, ND, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 19:09:20 (ZULU)

To All:

Chris deserves the "Silver-Tongued Devil" award for slicking the Caplug company into donating 5000 muzzle caps to the cause! I trust that Joe's eyes got as big as mine when he saw those two big-ass boxes! We have written a Thank You note, but I am trying to get the gal responsible on the phone today to thank her and let her know what an impact this is having.

Let's see.....guy in OR calls a company in NY and has them ship them to a guy in NM, who then ships them to a Major in Kuwait, who then spreads them all over Iraq and A'stan. How much more fun could this get?

The biggest kick is hearing that Santa Major has to pick up so many boxes besides the ones that Child Bride and I send out. I'm very proud of you folks, and honored to be a part of this.

Next box in the pipeline also has a 1000' spool of Khaki 550 cord, also courtesy of Chris, plus a ton of Walmart goodies courtesy of the rest of you.

And, Sir Wes, Thank You for your generous contribution. Balance in the fund is now $114.12, which we look forward to spending shortly.

Joe.......God Speed.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 19:41:11 (ZULU)

Fix It Again Tony

I've Hunted 'yotes in western OK. at Ft.Supply (no wonder no-one wanted to stay on the Rez)in the wide open sage flats.And I've hunted them in the Ozarks, where you are lucky to see 75 yards. And in the rolling hills of southern OK. One thing I've noticed is that the thicker the cover the slower they come in. I've watched a yote sit in thick cover next to a small clearing for thirty minutes, trying to see what was making the food noise, before he came in. In the west you have to move farther between calling sites, in the east you have to call longer, and quieter, at each site. Maybe its because, in the east, they live in closer proximity with humans and have learned to be more cautious. Everywhere they try to circle down wind to come in. so set up with the thickest cover upwind and make Wylee circle into sparcer cover to wind you. Like yote bait said, pups are a lot easier so this time of year is a good time to start. Yote Bait, you may want to hang on to that mouth call, the 'yotes hammer our deer every time it snows here.

Hhmmm...now where did I put them calls...

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 20:17:17 (ZULU)

Compuserve: I am told that, yes, it is an ISP. It was purchased by AOl about 2 or 3 years ago.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 20:46:35 (ZULU)

4i's; right on about the yotes. Yeah, I'm gonna try this 'mouth call' a little more. Actually I think I may have mislead the interpretation of mouth call. We normally think of a mouth call as something we blow on as opposed to a electronic call. In this case I mean there is no call other than the voice of the caller. In real time (most of the time) I usually use a mouth call which is also a howler to discuss the situation with the dogs. It's made by Doc Sceery and handles both jobs for me with the same reed. Some times we make a giant sucking (kissing sound) with no "call" . Don't try this on the street corner in San Francisco. The coyotes dig it but who knows who else does. I've used it as a coaxer but have called Dogs a half mile or more by using only lips.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 23:02:24 (ZULU)

Ding, Check emporium,ref: acog

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 23:34:28 (ZULU)

CMP M118LR ammo,

Anyone on here already registered to purchase ammo from CMP? Or wanna split an order. 2 ammo cans per order. I think it's 460 rounds per can and about 74# for $400.00. $200.00/400rds plus shipping. I tried to register tonite and don't want it to sell out before I get a can. Thanks,

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 00:02:56 (ZULU)

Ref: M118LR Ammunition

John, I'll split a case with you. I'm not registered yet and will be taking off on Saturday and will be gone for a month. Go ahead and order it and we'll settle up when I get back. (I've got over 3 hours of PIC time already.........things are working out.)

Ref: Sinister Dave

I dropped in on Dave last monday and everything seems to be in order. Dave's new command is about as good as it gets for a "gun queer". He's earned it.

I took some time alone to visit my old haunts and the new Ranger Memorial. I got something in my eye down there........

Ref: 6.5x284

What do you guys do about uniformed neck tension. Tell me about "donuts" in the neck.

Ref: AR-10

Am I going to need a 20moa base to get to 1,000 yards with my new rig? Is GG&G the best way to go for a sloped base?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 00:55:27 (ZULU)

CMP ammo;

Recently, the CMP went to what they call the "e-store". Everyone that has an affiliation with them has to re-register.

If you are not affiliated with the CMP, you can't buy from them.

Handi-rifle;

Does anyone have any experience with the H&R/NEF Handi-Rifles? They are a single shot break action. I kinda considered getting one for a cheap deer rifle.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 01:36:37 (ZULU)

Has anybody heard from mike in oklahoma selling the leupold mark4 scopes for $600?

johnny meadows
Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 01:56:17 (ZULU)

Jody,

I registered tonite, I just don't want to miss out while waiting for them to approve "me". I even sent them a blanked out copy of my DL in jpeg so they'd have it in hand. I just thought someone else might be able to order it for me tonite or first thing in the AM. I have a feeling it will go fast.

Kevin,

If I can get it, you'll have it, sir.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 01:56:53 (ZULU)

Hi,

Just wanted to let you guys know about the type of questions I am getting back from dealers. Here's a sample statement:

"I don't understand the need for me to send a copy of my D.L., and lease agreement. We hold an FFL as well as an S.O.T. (Class III dealer)."

Well, they just don't want to send out a copy of their FFL or their lease. How do I REALLY know who I am dealing with? I sure am running into resistance getting anyone to comply with what you guys say they should provide to sell a rifle. Are you sure you require these things of your dealers? I never did before, but you saved me.

What do you guys make of this?

Thanks again,

Todd

p.s. I really am looking for a rifle to replace the one that you guys jumped on Mike Adams of OKC, OK about selling. I think I will go back to my old methods of finding one on my own, and taking the risk myself. I have demonstrated that your "requirements" are unsound, and ask for information that would not be resonably required of any dealer. For those of you that were so quick on jumping on him, if you don't like a deal, don't buy in. If I get burned, I will let you know, so you won't. If I get a deal, better for me. If you are decent folk, I might even let you in on it. This is the end of the road on this forum for me, I am not impressed with what I found here. A couple other really decent guys showed up out of the woodwork, so there are some good folks here too. In the future, when the chumps jump up though you might want to beat on THEM a little. t

Todd
Fredonia, ND, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 02:07:35 (ZULU)

Jody,

I sold one to a guy a couple of years back for our trip out to 'yote-Baits neck of the woods. His boys sure ruined a bunch of p-dogs with it. It's downright amazing how fast a teenager can burn up 223 ammo in a single-shot rifle. ;o))) Nothin' fancy; but a darned effective little rifle.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 03:08:51 (ZULU)

Doc;

Thanks. I went ahead and ordered one a few minutes ago. I got it in .308 so I can use already available materials. Besides, .308 is my favorite hunting caliber.

Ace;

I hope you get in on that ammo. The CMP has a way of selling out really quickly on cool stuff. I'd get some but I have enough .308 supplies as it is. Although, if this were a year ago, I'd be on it quick!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 03:39:41 (ZULU)

RE: Mike in OK City

I was one of the first to pay Mike Adams for a $515 PSS. I received a full refund today to my Paypal account around 17:30CDT. Not sure why the deal didn't go through, but I did get all of my money back. Details are available via e-mail to interested parties. I hope all goes well for the rest of you who made purchases from Mike.

Troy
MS, - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 04:17:52 (ZULU)

Well i got damn angry on the drive down here last night, driving down the A5 about at Frankfurt and some long haired hippie left wing communist m@#$%^F@#$%^g ashole drives past me, swings his van infront of me nearly causeing an accident, son of a bitch i think, and the i read what he has painted across the back of the damn van, "Kill All Coalition Troops" , M#$%^@# F%$#^r i thought, he had obviousely seen (couldn"t miss em) the Union Jack and the Stars n Stripes in the rear window of my van and was trying to piss me off with his driving, he kept slowing down causeing me to pass him, then swinging back in infront of me causing me to hit the brakes, what a ring piece, made me mad as hell, especialy the slogan on his van, the wanker should ask is mother n father (if he knows em) who gave freedom to Western Germany and learn some respect.

Don, did the drunken dude have a blonde pig in the rear of the car? wasn't me, guns booze n cars don't mix all together at the same time, if you get em in the right order they can be a great combination, ie. drive to woods, use gun to shoot pig, drive home lock gun in safe, drive to pub, get shit faced and find some blond pig who ain't drinking to drive you home, (failing that a mates sofa will do.)

Arte et Marte

Pete.

Peter Lincoln
Times are Hard(t) but he's Gerhard(t) ,land - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 06:57:41 (ZULU)

Hey Todd,

Ya kinda went overboard, just to make a point I think, but point taken. Goodbye!

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 11:14:26 (ZULU)

Who are you Todd and what exactly are you babbling about? Did I miss something? I don't think anyone said you can't buy anything or from anyone you want; have at it.

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 12:58:58 (ZULU)

Todd; I'm glad you got your money back. Mike, possibly had no ill intentions but you gotta admit $600 MKV's and $515 Remington Sniper rifles with undisclosed pertinent information to buyers is enough to raise an eyebrow or two. Do you have any idea how long those things would last at a Oklahoma City Gunshow at those prices? Makes you wonder why someone would want to go to the trouble to mess with mail order and shipping. Even Gun-Broker would bring prices much above that, in a heart beat. Check it out. All he had to do was explain it a bit. IT don't cost nothing to list here and a serial number check or FFL to prospective buyers would had insured his success. In most cases except for Auctioners, you can't sell someone else's rifle unless you are a dealer and record the sale. It's done all the time around but usually not on a national forum. The forum itself might be implicated should there be something illegal about the transfer. Sometimes disclaimers don't work in those cases where the Feds are concerned.

Brogers
Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 13:14:12 (ZULU)

Kevin....donuts....I'll hit you with an email with all that this "anal" benchrester can tell you !!!!

However, if you can find the ones with chocolate smeared over them, go for it....they're delicious !!!!!

A retired MC armorer in Culpeper, Va. area ???????? Was this a Brian N. Sain friend ?????? I'd like to get the contact info for this person again.......thanks

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 13:26:42 (ZULU)

I think that the only comments made on this forum were simply that if a person is selling in what would appear to be in a business, as opposed to a personal gun collection, BATF requires a FFL license. One should be entitled to get a copy of a current FFL to verify that point. Second, any seller should be prepared to show that he or she has the guns in their possession or have a good explanation why and when they will be in their possession. Thirdly, any seller should be willing to provide serial numbers for the buyer to verify with BATF the guns. Fourth, there is a "red flag" in a case where guns appear being sold below market value, in quantities, with a "hotmail" address, to inquire (1) are you a dealer? (2) are the guns in your possession? (3) are the guns yours? (4) may I see a copy of your ffl? (5) what is your name and business address. There is nothing wrong with selling guns below market value, selling guns in quantity, or having a hot mail address. A reasonable buyer wants to confirm however that things are proper.

No one ever said any thing about asking for a driver's license of a FFL (the individual driver's license would probably show a different address than the business premises address any way), nor did any one say you must get a copy of the dealer lease agreement. All any one said was be sure they have a ffl if in the business of selling guns. It was noted to be sure they have a real address. The ffl shows the address.

If one is selling from their private collection, it is not unreasonable, on the other hand, to ask for a copy of their driver's license, but for a dealer that would be unnecessary once the ffl is provided.

This is a good bulletin board with a lot of sound advice, including a lot of common sense.

That is my two cents worth, and others may have their own personal opinions.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 13:31:16 (ZULU)

Knew the bloke wasn't you Pete when I read '28 yrs old' ;-). You need that 4x4 back with bull bars. Could've come in handy. Hope your op goes well. E-mail on route.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 13:45:54 (ZULU)

Todd,

You have added things into your list that were not mentioned on this site. Now I asked if anyone had any information about "Mike in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma" because I was looking for references and I did hear back from a couple. What I haven't heard is any completed deals; no product delivered only delays, excuses and refunded money. His ads dissappeared from the Emporium and I haven't seen any posting that it was done by anyone in control of this site which means that "Mike" deleted them. If he was on the up and up as I mentioned in my e-mail to you then why has he not completed any of the transactions?

I don't like loosing money and I don't like my friends to loose money needlessly either. You are free to use what ever methods you like, no one here has ever said anything to the contrary. What has been said here and pointed out many times are ways to keep from being burned, and ways to avoid having the BATF or local law enforcement from knocking on your door to award you a new pair of bracelets.

Also, I don't believe that anyone here it trying to cause trouble or start fights because we all want to just learn more and enjoy what we enjoy doing be it shooting, hunting, or drinking beer.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 16:32:13 (ZULU)

Todd in ND,

I have a NIB Rem 700 LTR in .308 that I was considering offering to you as I need the funds to finance a GA Precision Rifle from another site.

However, your rant towards the folks here who were looking out for each other AND attempting to avoid any possible violation of Federal law by the parties involved shows that you are a meat-helmet. Ergo, pick up your ball and go somewhere else, I won't miss you. Please note, I have NO OFFICIAL standing with this site or any other and my opinions are worth what you paid for them. I speak for no one but myself.

If you can read all the noble things that most of these folks have done for our troops lately and still don't see how their concern was well-intentioned, then you've got bigger problems than not being able to acquire a rifle.

Good day, Sir, and Good Luck,

Pat with the Black Dog

Blackdog
S. San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 16:48:24 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

Did some preliminary testing on a 155 Scenar load for my 300WM. I was using Vhit N560 with CCI 250 primers in Winchester cases. I was just looking for velocities and pressure using 3 shot groups to get an idea where to start next time. Anyway the loads ranged from 75.5gr to 78gr in 0.5gr increments. 3 of the groups were 0.5MOA or better at 200yds, so it looked promising. Then my mate says "f**king hell you've got more than 3 foot of flame coming out of your barrel"; and it was a sunny day too. By now a small crowd had gathered. Three positions over was a bloke with a 338LM AW, with muzzle brake. My Vhit loads made his sound like a pop gun. I am still trying to clean the barrel. It ain't copper either, its carbon and it is a bastard to shift.

Me thinks I need to try a different powder, shame we can't get IMR over here.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 16:52:01 (ZULU)

Just wanted to say that within 24 hours of posting a question on obtaining 77 gr sierra projectiles, I had four people respond with no BS, concrete solutions. Three offered to send me a bunch of bullets for free! The fourth suggested a method for obtaining a test lot.

Steve, Andrew, Larry and Aaron, thanks for taking the time to help me.

It sure is a privilege to be a member of this group.

medicjim
Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 17:33:32 (ZULU)

Jon, that flame was all that sheeps wool you stuff in them big cases trying to fill em up. Get an 06 and have done, n Bob will be your uncle.. i was 28 once you know and yep i need a 4x4, with idiot bars on it too. Tommorow is German Unification day, the krauts are celebrating opening the eastern flood gates so i hope it will be a good night in town.

I'm looking for a stainless rem 700, got my self a long list of winter projects to do, turn my parker hale 270 into a 9.3x62, curved pistol grip stock for the marlin, bull barrel from the 308 on to the 06 action and bed it in my spare modified sendero stock, PSS barrel onto tactical 308 and sell it, rebuild my 22lr. going to be a busy winter, have to get a workshop set up first.

Banana beer here i come,

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 17:44:43 (ZULU)

Kevin,

I just got an email from CMP. It appears they have been talkin to this Todd fellow cause I gotta send 'em acopy of my friggin birth certificate or passport to order from 'em. Somethin about proving citizenship. The ammo will probably be gone by the time I get 'em a copy of one of those, but I'm gonna try anyway. By the Way, Your HAT went out Priority Mail today. It'll be at the office when you get back.

Mike S. in Califirnicate,

Are you already registered with CMP? If so, order it and send me one can and I'll send ya the cash and then order another for me and Kevin if they don't run out.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 19:57:24 (ZULU)

Deer season is approaching, so I hope you all don't mind this question:

A bit off topic, but why is it that Federal does not recommend the Gold Match btph for hunting. I have only killed 1 deer in the little of my life I have been hunting (the last several years), and shot it literally through the heart at 125 yds with 308 Fed Gold match 168 gr bthp, and it worked fine. I would prefer to hunt with the same ammunition I target shoot with. Is it that on large animals, the round will not expand greatly? If I am shooting whitetails, I would not think there would be a problem in it killing them, would it? The deer I shot ran 20 yards. Robert

tschiemer
Ark, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 21:24:15 (ZULU)

Hello All,

This is my first post.

I have been a long time lurker, reading the roster daily. I have learned much in the last two years. I would like to thank all who have given freely of their time and knowledge.

Although listening to you guys is expensive, I now think in terms of Badger,G.A. Precision, and Leupold LR M1. (Thanks George, SCLE #6 is awesome)

Bruce, the silver-tongued devil award? No, Just talked with a few people who saw value in helping out. No big deal. The folks at Caplugs deserve all the credit.

Thanks guys, this place feels like home.

Back to lurk mode…

Chris (in Oregon)

codesmith
Oregon, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 21:33:34 (ZULU)

tschiemer,

Regarding BTHP ammo & hunting. From the folks at Federal, or at least their local rep, so long as you get proper incapacitating(killing) shot placement, the round will likely work. They simply are not designed to expand as are most "hunting" rounds. There is an expectation of "clean thru" shots not killing your quarry with BTHP. Short explanation.

That said, a LE sniper in Dixibama shot a felonious gun wielding waste of DNA, with a chest shot, with exit wound of about 2 1/2 inches. Certainly did the job. No hostage so he took a very sure shot at range much closer than had been practiced.

I've taken 2 bear the last couple of years with heavy 45 cal rifle rounds(thanks to Pete) with little to no expansion of the bullet but with door nail dead results. The recommendation from Federal is general as to application. My $0.02

Also, took a criminal complaint recently from a guy(dupe) sold his classic Chevy via Al Gore's Internet, to a guy in London, England. Buyer duped him into accepting a check "mistakenly" made out for too much, talked the seller into depositing the check & sending back the difference via wire. You got it. The dupe is out CASH $7500 and got a notice from his bank that the guys check was "bad." Moral of story, Know who you're dealing with. Was too good to be true. Then the dumas suggested he send the rest & have police in London snatch the guy up when he claimed the rest of the $$.

Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 22:03:47 (ZULU)

Robert,

The Sierra Match King bullet that is loaded in the Fed Gold Match is not considered a big game bullet due to the way it is constructed. This is not to say that it will not kill a deer, as you have noted it will. It just is not made to mushroom like bullets that are made for big game. If you reload try some of the Sierra Game Kings in the same weight as the Match Kings you are shooting, you should get very close to the same results, certainly good enough for deer hunting, and a bullet made for hunting. In my Savage 10FP (oh no I let the secret out) I shoot Winchester 168 Ballistic silver tips for deer and they print very close to where my 168 Match Kings do, at least at deer hunting ranges. Good luck!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 22:04:37 (ZULU)

One more shotgun question,

Now, I've narrowed it down to the Rem 870 Express HD 7-shot. Some numbskull at Bass Pro Shops tried to convince me that the 870 Express wasn't a steel receiver and the 870 Marine Magnum was. Guess which one he had in stock. Anyway, an other shop told me the difference bewteen the Express line and the Wingmaster line is that the Wingmasters are "fitted" and the Express's are just "assembled" and that the Police 870's are built on the Wingmaster action, hence the higher price (also the name "Police"). Any of this true? Does a tighter fitting action benefit anything in a pump gun anyways?

One more NFA question,

OK, so I think I've decided to go the .22 "can" route (Instead of integral MkII). I'm thinking of a Walther P22 setup. I've been looking at Gemtech, Bowers, SWR, AAC, AWC. Any recommendations?

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 22:09:48 (ZULU)

Walther P22: Rich, search the current NFA discussion board, on www.subguns.com and do a search of Walther. There have been many reports of poor functioning, namely jams, in the gun, by those using it with a suppressor. I do not know if there are any current posts, and you may want to post and ask. During the last year, there were many many adverse comments.

A Ruger integrally suppressed pistol is reportedly quieter than with a screw on suppressor, I have been told.

I have been told that normally the Point of Impact changes when you put your suppressor on or take it off, if a can.

You might also consider a 10/22 with integral suppressor.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 22:28:20 (ZULU)

Rich S.

I don't have any first hand knowledge of this but I have heard more than once and from more than one source the Walther P22 is VERY sensitive to the ammo you feed it and specially so when using a silencer ie..jamming. Just a thought to consider.

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 22:30:29 (ZULU)

tschiemer,

Well I just got this straight from Remington's site.....

"What's the difference between the Express and the Wingmaster?"

"The differences between the Model 870 Express and Wingmaster are mostly cosmetic. The Express utilizes a birch stock and fore-end and non-polished matte finished metal surfaces. The Wingmaster has a walnut stock and fore-end and a high polished blued finish on metal surfaces. Internal parts are the same on both models. Both are built to the same mechanical specifications..."

I guess that settles it for me then. I imagine Remington sure as hell would say if the Wingmaster was fitted better than the Express. Years ago there probably was a difference, but I guess there isn't anymore. HD here I come......

Later

Rich

Rich S
MD, - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 23:01:44 (ZULU)

Wingmaster. Thank you for the information. If I was buying a new gun, I would go with the HD as well based on the information you found. Good call and good research.

Good shooting.

robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 23:12:28 (ZULU)

Gents- I just went to an ammo test where they had Winchester and Federal go head to head on the FBI pistol ammo tests. The stars of the show were the Winchester SXT and the Federal HST. The Federal HST 230gr .45 ACP was awesome. It averaged about 12" penetration in the gelatin through all materials. It expanded like a great big 5 blade propeller in all tests except the sheet metal and it still out performed all the others on the metal too. It was common to get over 1" permanent bullet expansion with the HST. This round impressed me and pretty much everybody there. The HST ruled the 9mm and 40S&W tests as well.

The Federal .223 TRU 55gr BTHP ammo had a good showing. Average penetration was 9.5" through all test mediums. It tended to fragment and deviate path after about 4-5". The Winchester 50gr Silver Tip performed very similar to the TRU. Both are touted as being very functioning reliable in the M16 and other semi/full auto rifles and carbines. My department uses the TRU in the M16’s and it has a very reliable history so far.

Winchester and Federal make good ammo across the board and are very comparable weight to weight it seems.

By the way for those that care, the Winchester rep said that Winchester and Nosler have had a falling out and it seems that when the supplies of Nosler 168 rounds (Winchester 308J Match) is used up Winchester will be going to the 168 SMK again. He estimated it would be in about 6 months or so.

Blackdog- "Meat helmet"....I like it =)

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 23:48:51 (ZULU)

Acehigh,

I already do have a DCM ID #, but I have not completed my registration with their "E-Store". I did submit a request for my E store password, but I have not received a reply yet. As soon as I do I will order two cases and we can work out the other stuff off line.

Michael
CA, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 01:01:27 (ZULU)

Gents,

Match Kings for deer? I recommend against it. As noted, they will do the job, but are not constructed for hunting. Also, in some areas you may have legal problems, as they may be viewed as FMJ's by the constabulary. Recommend shooting a weight close to your match/target/varmint/tactical load. Shoot a 165 gr. or 180 gr. if yo shoot SMK 168's/175's. You may be amazed at the accuracy of some hunting grades. Have had great luck with Speer's 165 gr. "Hot Core" BT soft point over 41.7 gr. IMR-4895.

Pete, Making a 9.3 X 62? Why not go for the 9.3 X 64 Brennecke? It will work through the M98 action and makes one hell of a rifle. Like a European version of the .375 H&H. Either are GREAT cartridges. What barrel weight do you plan. Enquiring minds...

Gotta run...grandkids are over for the next couple days...where did I put my duct tape...?

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 01:15:53 (ZULU)

The Expresses seem a little rougher on the insides. Mine had some trouble feeding until I polished the mag tube. It's steel.

CDC'
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 01:38:52 (ZULU)

CDC; ditto, I've had to smooth up a few Expresses inside.

Essentially the finish is just a few processes less than the Wingmaster. The outter finish is just unpolished steel blued. They rust a bit easier than the Wingers do. WD-40 will protect them outside but keep it out of the action in the cold weather.

The Wingmaster is a fine shotgun by anyones' standards. They don't quite fit me for a bird gun but they are first class.

Wes; Don't forget the broiler and oven doors on the stove as well as the other kitchen cabinet doors and the cleaning closet. Won't hurt to tape up the hole in the DVD and VCR either. The toilet paper roll maybe should go back in the towel drawer and taping the toilet lid down is legal in some cases. A strip over the bathtub drain and tape the phone on hook. :) Some people here probably don't understand what all this means. Oh yeah, put up the ash trays. And the drink coasters. Mine thinks the coasters are Graham crackers.

Just some secret coded sniper talk for you lurkers!

Brogers
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 03:26:05 (ZULU)

Joe, give me a jingle after you get settled in and get some quality time in, etc.

Remmy shotties....yeah. What y'all said! All my remmies have been Express models. Same same.

Shotgun News ran a nice article on a new round called the 6.5 Grendel. Based on the 6mm PPC round. Tested an AR type rifle chambered for it. The weapon and round both came from Alexander Arms...the people that brought us the .50 Beowulf. Anyone else see this? Many people have posited that if only the AR15/M16 family was chambered for a 6mm cartridge, it would be perfect. Wes, you posted about this a couple years back. Ammo availability is the only drawback I can see, but Lapua is making factory ammo and the article states that Lapua has tweaked the cartridge dimensions which will enable the load to be beefed up a little bit.

What say the experts? It sounds like a "good thing" (tm). The initial target for an upper is claimed to be $1050.00. They are also doing the mags....10 round mags for civvies, 25 rounders for LEO. Uses standard AR lower.

Test rifle used a Nikon 4-16X50, 30mm, mil dot, side focus. Looks nice, other than having that huge objective and 1/4" clicks.

Suprised no one has posted about this yet....perhaps it's not all that interesting?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 04:21:52 (ZULU)

If it were me, I'd use the duct tape on the kids... NOT the house/wares.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 04:23:36 (ZULU)

Folks,

Should have been more clear in my posts. My intent was NEVER to duct tape the house...just the we ones...;-)

Sharon saw right through that one...

Posted a nice 22/250 to the for sale section. Will take pictures if your interested.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 04:34:01 (ZULU)

Codesmith, you might want to look into getting a Howa. I've had fantastic results with both of mine, and I have yet to hear anything bad from anyone who has one. I just got back from Badlands, and the Longer one (24") printed five rounds through one ragged hole on the timed qualification round at 100 yds. It consistently held no worse than .75 moa across the board, and I think that was because of the shooter! The stock is some kinda cheesy composit thing, kinda like something from Ramline, but after floating the barrel and bedding it, it never shifts, and shoots from either the pack or bipod just fine.

The kicker is that it cost me $420 out the door from my freindly FFL dealer. You can get a barrelled action in the $300 range, and drop it into a McMillan stock if you want to, and still be under $600. The thousand dollars you save will get you a nifty Leupold and lots of reloading stuff. I stuff 46 gr of Varget in new Winchester brass with the Sierra 168 gr HPBTM, and it's an odd thing if it dosesn't shoot under .5 moa. Those are kinda stiff loads, but the bolt never sticks, and I don't see any pressure signs. Also, the bolt is slicker'n owl snot right from the factory, and a little prussian blue show that both bolt lugs are locking up square. My buddy Dirty Steve has a GA Precision rifle, and it is a thing of beauty, but the Howa was $1100 cheaper, and on a good day it shoots as well. It does tend to copper up a bit for the first 500 rounds or so, but that's just an excuse to shoot it a lot. Look into it, you'll like what you find.

Charle S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 04:35:10 (ZULU)

Charle,

I cant argue with you on the Howa, I shot one several weeks age, nice.

How are they to rebarrel? I'm thinking of getting/making something with a 20 inch barrel. I need a belt gun ;))Will keep the Howa in mind.

Codesmith

Codesmith
Oregon, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 05:15:19 (ZULU)

Oh my head !

Wes, the 9.2x63 is available in far more factory loadings and is much more popular, ( i figure its about ballisticaly the same as the 35 whelan) and besides i just fancy one, dunno why. i'm gonna get a hogue stock for it and i'm thinking 22"heym barrel, slightly fatter contour than i'd usualy choose, its already got a decent trigger on it, sure the bolt clanks around like any 98 but i just like the thing and want to make a decent rifle out of it. I'm also toying with the idea, since this morning of turning it into a 450 marlin, but i'm wondering about feed angles and having to alter the action, the extractor is easy enough to alter, ahh mmm, sod it the 9.3 is a straight barrel swap, stick with that.

Do i have to comment on using match bullets on game? just don't, a game animal deserves to be dispatched as quickly as possible and a FMJ or BTHP match bullet will not do enough dammage, a deer hunting bullet is designed to expand to a certain degree, this creates far more dammage and a far greater wound channel than a match bullet will, now sure you can kill a deer with match bullets, and yeah you'd have no problems providing you stuck the bullet perfectly through the boiler room every time, but in the field things are never ever perfect, a match bullet that stays in one piece will zip through from side to side on a deer like a lazer, but what if you have to have to angle the shot through some tough shoulder and bone, FMJ's have a tendency to tumble or wander off course when they hit and some exen just blow up, in either case, with anything less than a perfect side shot you run the risk of not damaging the deers vitals, which leads to suffering, now i know we could go along the lines of, but i'm a great shot and i'll only shoot at a perfect side on, bull, when you just hiked up a damn great mountain, you see the buck of a life time, the buck fever gets you, or the damn wind is playing tricks swirling around the hill sides, then there is no such thing as a perfect shot, take the longish range buck i shot this summer in Scotland, misjudged the angle of the wind slightly and put the bullet a good 6 inches to far back, if that had been a FMJ the deer would never have been recovered, luckily the BTSP Hornady interlock is a reliable expander and did enough damage to anchor the deer until it could be dispatched, even using the wrong kind of deer bullet will get you in the shit, use one thats too hard and it will zip through with out doing much dammage, use one too soft or frangible and it will expand to much and not reach the vitals, you want to be doing everything you can to ensure that you have 100% chance of killing the deer on the spot, some of todays deer bullets exhibit enough accuracy potential to rival match bullets, you can pick and choose one that will match the trajectory of your target load easy enough. Sierra game king, Nostler Ballistic tip, partition Hornady interlock or SST, and several others are all a good place to start for deer bullets, if your after larger deer ie elk, then start with the partition, the lapua mega or something thats a little tougher. Sure i know in Afrika they use (used to) solids, but thats for pure penetration purposes, the ranges when using solids are never very long, the game it tough, and basicaly you keep shooting the animal with solids untill its dead, and of course the bullets ar greater in diameter then your avrage northern hemisphere deer bullet, an half dozen 40 to 50 caliber holes will do enough dammage even with zero expansion. Use the right tool for the right job and you won't go far wrong.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 07:38:11 (ZULU)

Gents,

Pete, the 9.3 X 62 is a great cartridge. I own a custom .35 Whelan Improved is built on a FN Commercial M98 action. It sports a 23" Krieger barrel, english walnut stock, and leather covered recoil pad. Scope is a 1.5 X 5 Luppie vari-x III. I put three 250 grainers in 3/4" at 100 yards last week when sighting in...it's a sweetie. The Whelan is a wonderful cartridge.

Thanks for reminding us of our duty as hunters and our responsibility to dispatch game quickly and reliably. All to many hunters today are hung up on everything but that. To me it is the essence of the hunt.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 08:16:31 (ZULU)

Pete,

The 450 Marlin should go nicely into a Siamese Mauser action. Box is designed for rimmed cartridges. I have sen several 45-70s built on them over the years and about 25-30 years ago Navy Arms offered complete 45-70 rifles built on them.

Marc Palmer
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 09:06:37 (ZULU)

Mike/Calif.

Let me know when the order is placed. I'm still lookin for my damn birth certif.

CMP contact: 256-835-8455 ext 27; Janet Ryder/Registration

jryder@odcmp.com

John

Welcome Codesmith!

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 10:46:01 (ZULU)

Marc, now you got me in a dilema, 3 rounds (450) sit in the mag easy enough, now do it shorten the mag length so the rounds can't move back and forth to far, or will it be ok as it is? this is a mauser action with a springfield bolt ( parker hale put em together)its a nice looking action, has a parker hale adjustable trigger on it, the stock is a piece of packing case but that will get binned, i figure this would be a nice little project, screw it i just talked my self out of the 9.3 and into a 450, 18 inch barrel, hogue stock and moderated, put a picatinny on it, replace the alloy bottom metal with a prpoer mauser unit, now that be good piggy medicine, controled round feed, should be reliable, that way i can use the lever gun purely for driven game shoots and nachsuche, follow ups etc and put a long eye relief scope on it scout style, ive a couple of 98 carabiner actions kicking about that i can build a 9.3 on, one is German, with nazi waffenamt markings and the other is well, its all in spanish, so i'm buggered if i'm sure where its from. anyways ive go plenty to keep me busy through the winter. Did her in doors manage to transfer you the cash for the reamer yet? i forgot to remind her. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 11:02:55 (ZULU)

Pete,

Not sure about the funds, I don't watch the German account and I don't tell her what to watch for. She always wants a piece!

Anyway, The Spanish thing sounds like a La Corona.

On a lark a freind of mine and I built a 7.62 Nagant on a 98 action. Worked fine as long as you made sure the rim below was behind the one above. As to the magazine capacity, Ralf down in Albershausen has a nice conversion from a standard mag to a dropped one using the military box.

If you've got the barrel out try loading the rounds in the magazine and then cycle the action. You might need to remove the extractor to get it out of the way. If it does not work it will probably be a rail problem you will have to think over. I doubt you would need to block the magazine unless there is enough recoil to cause one rim to jump over the one below.

If it works, Bob's your uncle!

Marc Palmer
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 12:17:45 (ZULU)

Ref: Wheels Up

I'll be away from the board for a few weeks. I'm headed back to the Far East and will do my best to keep this trip uneventful. You guys play nice and be good while I'm away.

Ref: Rifles Only Match

I plan to shoot the Rifles Only Match in Texas on November 21, 22 & 23. I hear it's a well run and challenging match. Are there any other Roster Hogs planning to attend? John?

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 12:50:34 (ZULU)

SMKs for deer hunting....only if you can always shoot 'em in the head! other than that, use a game bullet as has been already pointed out!!!

Was 27 degrees here this AM..Hard frost...Bucks should be getting fired up soon as it gets colder and the days get shorter.

Took a MGM 8 inch flopper plate up to the range yesterday and staked it down for daily practice with the Dakota prior to deer season..One shot a day from various positions...Paint the plate every seven days. No more shooting from the bench, except to maybe verify zero or shoot the .22, 'til after buck season.

outa here

Markwell
The frosty Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 13:23:28 (ZULU)

La Corona, ain't that a beer? oh there i go again, i supped a gallon of banana weitzen last night and i'm thinking about beer again. Barrel is still on it, i'll have to get the mauser head for my action wrench, that box extension sounds interesting, and i can see one for sale in the frankonia catalog, i'll have to relieve the extractor as its for a 270 at the mo, what i'm gonna do is barrel the german karabiner with a 9.3x62, the corona? one, (i'm assuming same threads) will get the 270 barrel of the parker hale and it will get a 450m barrel,then i'll have 3 nice little projects, ever seen a clip for magnum head size, be handy to load the 450 bolt gun with clips, hmmm interesting that would be.

I'm gonna go and test out my new steiners and see if i cant bag a pig tonight,

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 15:04:18 (ZULU)

This good looking man walks into an agent's office in Hollywood and

says "I

want to be a movie star."

Tall, handsome and with experience on Broadway, he had all the right

credentials.

The agent asked, "What's your name?"

The guy said, "My name is Penis van Lesbian."

The agent said, "Sir, I hate to tell you, but in order to get into

Hollywood, you are gonna have to change your name."

"I will NOT change my name! The van Lesbian name is centuries old, I

will

not disrespect! my grandfather by changing my name. Not ever!"

The agent said, "Sir, I have worked in Hollywood for years... you will

NEVER

go far in Hollywood with a name like Penis van Lesbian! I'm telling

you, you

will HAVE TO change your name or I will not be able to represent you."

"So be it! I guess we will not do business together" the guy said and

left the agent's office.

FIVE YEARS LATER.....

The agent opens an envelope sent to his office. Inside the envelope is

letter and a cheque for $50,000.

The agent is awestruck... who would possibly send him $50,000?

He reads the letter enclosed...

"Dear Sir,

Five years ago, I came into your office wanting to become an actor in

Hollywood. You told me I needed to change my name. Determined to make

with my God-given birth name, I refused. You told me I would never make

in Hollywood with a name like Penis van Lesbian.

After I left your office, I thought about ! what you said. I decided you

were

right. I had to change my name.

I had too much pride to return to your office, so I signed with

another

agent.

I would never have made it without changing my name, so the enclosed

cheque

is a token of my appreciation.

Thank you for your advice.

Sincerely,

Dick van Dyke

Peter Lincoln
joke time - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 15:06:40 (ZULU)

Acehigh, Two cases of the M118LR ordered this morning....

Michael
CA, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 16:04:19 (ZULU)

Folks... just wanted to take the time to warn you all.

I recieved an undeliverable email back to the email account which I use with this site. The email was not sent by me. The attachment, entitled "thank you" contained a virus.

What this suggests to me is that someone was reading the roster, noted my recent post thanking members for help, and decided to try a trojan attack on another poster...

They would have to know the target's email address from before the site hid email addresses.

The whole thing could be a coincidence, but I have enough concern to mention it...

medicjim
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 16:14:49 (ZULU)

HOGs a few things:

Just finished two weeks teaching around 12 hours a day. Shotgun and Pistol. Found a problem with some Winchester ammo. Its 40 Cal 180 grain HP Ranger in tan box.. This stuff would not feed in the Sig226's worth a darn. The problem is the case mouth. Looks like they forgot to chammer after cutting to length. The mouth looks like a freshly cut water pipe with juts a sharp ridge running around it. Sigs have tight chamber and the sharp edge caused problems. Now we are talking about about 120 SIGs that have never had a problem in the past. This is practice ammo for us but some may carry this, hence the warning. We have used this brand before but this is the first problem. Its a smaller lot(30,000 rds) we just got in and have just about run through. Issue ammo is Federal Hydra Shox and that has worked perfectly.

On Express versus Wingmaster. I agree with what CDC said except, one other thing the Express does not have is trued sides and top of receiver. They rough mill them but they dont take the time to true them up. This is only a problem if you add Ghost Rings sites and can be solved in a few minutes. Frankly my combat shotgun rigs usually stay as an Express to save money.

No other news on home front.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
CA, - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 16:47:24 (ZULU)

Viruses: There is a virus going around that attempts to access your email and then send emails to itself like you described. About 30 days ago, I had the same thing and spoke with both AOL technical, and with the computer administrator at work. I took my cpu to work, and he ran a complete check and found no viruses, so I thought it was someone trying to infect my computer and did the following: changed password, and after running a complete check on the drive for viruses, we set up a daily scan using the Norton antivirus program that has daily updates. (I normally had been checking for updates from Norton ever several days), but now I have it checked daily on a prescheduled scan on my home computer.

I do not know very much about what I am telling you as far as technical information, but this is what was recommended to me.

tschiemer
ark, usa - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 18:02:57 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

Birthday coming up and fancy a new set of scales, so I am interested in anyones views. I quite fancy the Redding (No.2), but also hear the RCBS are good. Most of my other kit is Redding and I like their stuff; but which do you guys prefer?

As always any comments will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Jon

P.S. Talking about birthdays Pete, did you get the e-card Rachael and me sent for Rebecca?

Jon Beardsley
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 19:05:30 (ZULU)

medicjim

Incoming via USPS expect it Monday or Tuesday.....

Ok Hawgs, I got the dreaded zero shift.....

From ASC#2 through the end of June the stick was dead nuts for wind. No shooting from mid june to Mid August.... took it out on three seperate occasions between mid August and now and I have a nice ~3" black dot on the white 500 yard swinger! appx 30 rounds into that same group. The problem is that with zero wind I have to put 2moa on to be centered where it was "0" wind in June.

The ugly green step-rifle is a Remmy700 Varmint special early 90's vintage in .308 wearing a half painted Mcmillan woodland pattern USMC M40a1 stock, action is fully bedded with pillars & chamber IS supported ~2" in front of recoil lug, Badger rings and base, loopy VXIII 3.5x10 LRM3, harris bipod (medium notch leg w\o swivel), undude sling....

I plan to verify the torque on all screws tonight, but it isn't accuracy that is goofy, how much and how hard of a whack would it take to cause a 2moa shift directly sideways? No recall of any major drops or whacks...... Always a chance that the windage turret cap slipped but that puppy seems tight - will double check it tonight also.

Ideas and VooDoo counter curses accepted!

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Friday, October 3, 2003, at 20:47:59 (ZULU)

Jon,

E-mail to you. It's clean.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 20:54:48 (ZULU)

UnDude: I didn't know you was a scatter gun instructor. Let me know if your teaching abything that's open to us civi's. I've been looking for a class in my neck of the woods but the only one seems to be Sig in NH and their dates didn't work for me this year.

I picked up a Benelli Nova 18" with all the bells and whistles. It was a keeper right from the start. With Fed 2 3/4 classic slugs it groups at 75 yds like my 308. Hell I'm going to use this one for deer hunting. I like that it shoots everything up to 3 1/2"ers but even with the recoil tube that's got to hurt.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 22:25:26 (ZULU)

Steve - Zero Shift,

Question: Are you shooting the same lot of ammo or is this a different lot?

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, October 3, 2003, at 23:55:45 (ZULU)

Steve "hockey ref"

As long as you are shifting to the right everything is OK. When you start to shift to the left, then I'll start to worry. Give me a call if you get a chance.

william bierbower
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 00:13:48 (ZULU)

Byron, it's all out of the same batch of handloads that I loaded for ASC#2.... LC64match, CCI primer, have to look up the charge of RE15..... literally the same loads!

Willie... I'll hit you tonight... maybe bust a couple caps tomorrow early afternoon if you don't take yer longbow for a walk.....phone call shortly.

Steve ~hockeyref
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 01:45:34 (ZULU)

Steve....

Quote;

"The ugly green step-rifle is a Remmy700 Varmint special early 90's vintage in .308 wearing a half painted Mcmillan woodland pattern USMC M40a1 stock, action is fully bedded with pillars & chamber IS supported ~2" in front of recoil lug".

Steve, if this is a Rem 700 Varmint contour barrel, I would not have (personally) bedded ahead of the recoil lug( 2"s')..there is a taper there.

This could ( possibly) be causing you some problems.

On a 5.5 contour, USually there are not bedded except behind the recoil lug, and full length reciever, or at the tang, recoil lug.

I prefer the recoil lug all the way back.

But, I am no smith......if I am off base here, one of the SMith types can correct me,as this has always to my understanding been a no-no.

Two Shoes

Terry
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 02:28:07 (ZULU)

Dos Zap....

It is the varmint contour tube.... now that I look closer at the chamber area, it has more taper than I thought it did and starts closer to the recoil lug. Since I know she shoots and the receiver is bedded full length with pillars I think I'll dig out the dremel tomorrow.... it won't take but 5 minutes to do the deed.... I was looking for an excuse to go to the range - now I have to verify my zero after performing minor surgery.

Willie, I am definitely going out to SAG between noon and one now.... I'll call you in the morning.

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 04:48:49 (ZULU)

Tony, I spend alot of time teaching cops to shoot Shot Guns and Pistols. Been teaching Shotgun since around 1986 or so. Pistols before that. I can do five day shotgun classes, three day shotgun classes or five day half shotgun and half pistol classes. Hit me off line and we can work something out. No real secerets and nothing about a shotgun or pistol I would not teach civilains. Hell in a few years I will be a civilian myself. Basically all my teachingof shotgun and pistols is geared toward fighting with them. Transistion, tactics and abilities of the systems. Shotgun and pistol classes are high tempo and lots of fun.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 06:49:01 (ZULU)

Mike, A good friend of mine on the Riverside Sheriff Dept, stopped over, and I showed him your M24 sling w/cuff on my Winchester, he said he wanted one for his bolt rifle, his name is Rick, Former Marine, gave him you site, thanks >>> Don (zcree)

Don Rutledge
Riverside, CA, U.S.A - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 07:10:01 (ZULU)

Jon, if you need new scales your diet ain't working !!, haven't opened the home mail for a couple of days, (altzheimer on the pass word) I'll tell Anke to have a butchers. So when are you 40 then? i was stalking last night, those steiners are very good, and the rubber eyepieces that sort of go around the side of your eyes make viewing in the dark easier, there is no periferal light getting at you from the side,i'm not to keen on the plastic cover for them though, its to fiddly, i'm gonna change it for the one thats the same as the M22's. stalked a bunch of pigs who where in some bramble bushes, gaddamn wind kept changing on me, spent 3 hous approaching from 3 different directions only to have the damn wind drop me in it as i got within about 50m, the pigs moved off away from me and i had to withdraw and out flank em, only to have it happen exactly the same from the opposite direction, only clear shot i had was with no bloody back stop so i let it pass, and i only got that because i was on all fours grunting like a hog and shuffeling in the dirt as if i was rooting, hell if anyone could have seen me, and not to be advised in areas where a few guys hunt i guess, just as well i'm there on my own. Sacked it and went to bed at 02.00. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 13:19:03 (ZULU)

Jon,

Next time you're up this way, let's go ahead and lap that 300 winnie barrel eh..I'll be gentle, promise..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 14:01:24 (ZULU)

Hi, All!

Long time no see. I'm out of grad school now and in the classroom teaching US History at the high school level. After the ususal first few months of chaos and madness as a new teacher, I am finaly finding time to play with some tight-shooting toys again.

New Project: AR-10 Based DM Rifle:

After years of messing about with M14-based DM rifles, I have come to the conclusion that this is something of a lost cause. I recently traded into an AR-10 flattop with a (pretty much useless, in my book) 16" stainless tube on it. Having seen just how well a chrome-lined tube can shoot in the form of my 1st gen FN Special Police (1/2 MOA, all day, every day to 500m and probably well beyond), I dont feel compelled to mess about with unlined barrels anymore, so no AR-10Ts, thanks. I am getting in a chrome-lined barrel from Armalite (unless someone has a better source or a takeoff they want to get rid of) and am going to fit a tubular handguard to float it out. I figure that it will probably shoot at least 1 MOA, which is quite adequate for what the gun is being set up to do.

A Completly Novel Question: What Scope Do I Get? :-)

Question: the FN SPR currently has a Leupold 3.5x10 M3 LR on it, and frankly the gun and I are accurate enough that it could stand a bit more magnification and a bit finer adjustments that 10x and 1 MOA allow for. Those 500m hostage shots are a bit iffy, 'yaknow? :-) One thought is that I could put it on the AR-10 DM gun and put something else on the SPR that has a bit more magnification (say, an IOR 4x14 tactical or a Leupie 4x14 tactical), or I can just put a 2.5x10 IOR on the AR-10 (where the lower bottom magnification might come in handy if the AR-10 has to be pushed into battle rifle/CQB service). I dont expect any of you will have THE answer, as none probably exists, but I would still appreciate some comments in any event.

Good to be back!

Tom Simpson
Colatown, SC , US of A! - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 14:14:43 (ZULU)

Holy shit Pete, 'bout spit my coffee.

Dick van Dyke ...

brian k. sain
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 14:36:30 (ZULU)

JR MOORE: ONE of the best I've seen. Comparable to the excellent work of the Chandlers and George. Please tell he and or his wife hello for me. Good friends of mine. Spoke with them two weeks ago.

LEO CONRING

CONRING PRECISION WEAPON SYSTEMS

21328 PENOLA RD.

RUTHER GLEN, VA. 22546

804-632-1111

804-632-1112 FAX

lhc0353@msn.com

brian k. sain
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 14:47:20 (ZULU)

hockey ref -

Is there any chance that the windage knob could have shifted? Other than the torque setting you mentioned, you got me.

Jon,

Scales - I think I am spoiled when I started reloading I bought an RCBS 10-10 and really never looked back. Since that first scale I've picked up a couple of backups but not really replacements. Check ebay (my computer is hosed right now and can't get there from home) they have some good prices on used ones. The scale is actually built by Ohaus which is a well respected name in the scale business. They also offer them in metric versions if you like or need that option. One of my backups is the Lyman M5 (also make by Ohaus) with the only difference between the two being the .1 gr adjustment. The 10-10 uses a weight on threaded shaft while the M5 uses a moveable weight and indents on scale like the 10-5 scales.

If you are going to get into weighting objects of various weights and need quick readout of weight then go digital. I also have the Pact Digital Precision scale and it is great! Midway has it on sale right now for $129 and comes with storage case, powder pan and two check weights. Works 10 times better than balance beams scales for things like bullets and cases.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 15:36:44 (ZULU)

Need advice Please:

Replaced the factory trigger today on a Rem 700 LTR .308 with a Jewell, Wow what a piece of work.

Problem when re assembling the weapon everything fell into place except there now seems to be a rocking of the barrelled action in the stock before tightening the trigger guard screws. It does not seem to drop into place solidly and I can find no obvious restrictions holding the action from seating. The trigger seems to be exactly the same dimentions as the stock trigger overall.

Any suggestions where to look. Also what is the correct torque for the two screws.

Thanks in advance for any help on this issue.

Barry

Panama City Florida

Barry
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 15:58:24 (ZULU)

Rocking Action:

I would very carefuly observe the rocking motion and try and determine the point at which the fulcrum lays, then examine that part of the barrel channel or inletting for debris, flashing from the moulding process from when the stock was made, etc. Some OEM stocks that HS Precision makes for Remington have some dimentional problems that can only be corrected by bedding, so this may have to be done in your case as well.

Tom Simpson
Colatown, SC , US of A! - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 16:35:20 (ZULU)

Barry,

You may have already tried this but;

- take it back apart (action out of stock)

- look for marks on the stock or trigger where they may be rubbing

- check the pins holding the trigger in and verify that they got set below the outside edge of the action

- dump the stock upside down in case something fell into one of the wells like where the recoil lug sits and see if any debris falls out

- carefully re-assemble ensuring that the magazine well seats into the trigger guard correctly (I usually leave the floorplate open during assembly to make checking easier)

- place action screws in place and lightly finger tighten and see how things went before final torque

If that doesn't work bedding may be the right action to take next.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 17:48:12 (ZULU)

Hi, Brian, i like that pic of the patch you sent me, i want one.

Barry, 7.344012 Nm (Newton meter)(7.3Nm will do) is the correct torque for the screws on the remington 700/HS stock (and its the same for the Steyr SSG just for info sake).. oh damn i forgot you lot on that side of the pond use them old fashioned units of measure ments don't you, now before some one tells you to go out and cut a stick of willow thats an inch thick and 12 inches long and tape it to your wrench and when the stick breaks Bob will be your uncle and you'll have the screws tight, i'll do the maths.. ha.. its 65 lbs/in (inch pounds).

Jon, Iain was telling me you had been measuring your powder in level table spoons and thats why you had turned the 300 into a flame thrower, any truth in that? Tell Rachel that she will be able to use the scales in the kitchen too, or on second thoughts, tell her you will use em in the kitchen.

JR, hows about lapping this damn rust out of my Heym? maybe make it shoot again.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 18:36:17 (ZULU)

Barry,

Check the trigger...front, it may be very well making contact with the stock..a bit of inletting may be in order.

Also, check the recoil lug, and make sure it's not bottoming out in the stock..

Two Shoes

Terry
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 19:14:32 (ZULU)

Yo gents!

Been in Europe for a few weeks now and finally got decent internet.

Went to Italy to play with the Italian Army sniper school and now this week we are in Madrid fixing to play with some Spanish lads.

Italy was cool. Besides playing with the snipers got a chance to see the vatican, all of the old shit in ROme and even made it to POmpay and see more old shit.

I like Madrid. More "European".

Headed to Germany in a week or so. I think we are going to be in the Nuremburg area if any of you reprobates/lukers wanna link up let me know.

Out here

Gooch
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 20:08:06 (ZULU)

.308 Win. shooters FYI,Champion shooters Supply in New Albany, Ohio

has .308 Win. Lapua brass for $32 /C + postage.

1-800-821-guns

www.championshooters.com

I have no finiancial interest in their operation

only a very satisfied customer.

Steve from New Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 20:30:52 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the scales guys. I shall have to count how much money falls out of the birthday cards.

JR. Thanks for the offer, much appreciated as I know your a busy man, but I will be placing that order pretty damn soon. Then the fouling tube will be a hassle no longer (unless the JR 5R is a diiirty pipe ;-) ). Once the FC has decided what the new firearms policy will be and once I decide what bullet I want the throat cut for (hmmmm Lapua 185s or Sierra 220s?!?!) you can stick me on the waiting list. Will you be going to Ponteland with Lee and Geoff tomorrow, if so see ya there?

Pete, tablespoons, ha. Coal shovels ;-). Beware the 65in.lb. on the SSG. I know the Mannlicher fella said so, but I tried to torque Iain's up to that and bottled it when the plastic trigger guard/bottom plate started to creek; and the wrench felt like it had a bit more to go. I've seen a few Model 'M' s (virtually the same as SSG) in plastic stocks (are the same as the SSG) with cracked/split plastic radiating from around the screw holes. Oh yeah, can you get a price for the rail on the bottom of the SSG (the bit the pod/sling slides onto); Iain has split his? And did you confirm the ring prices? To the question of when will I be 40, that'll be another 9 years, 31 today (9 years that is scarey). You'll have to tell me what its like ;-)

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 22:12:26 (ZULU)

Hey Everyone,

I'm the new guy around here, so I just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a Father, Husband, Sate Corrections Officer; Peace Officer, Former US Marine 2531 Field Radio Operator and Former Army 19D Scout. I'm also the newest Moderator over on Snipers Paradise and post regularly on the Hide too. I hope to be a productive member here, as well.

We now return to our regualarly scheduled posting...

Respectfully,

Harry

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 22:27:15 (ZULU)

Harry,

Welcome. You'll find this forum peopled by the finest folks you will ever encounter (the most forgiving, too....they even let me play)! Just don't take anyone too seriously, especially Sain (I've seen him table-dance).

Todd in PA,

Thanks for the check for the troops and the kind words. It's folks like you that make this possible. Child Bride always grins when she has another Thank You card to write!

God Bless our Troops.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 22:55:58 (ZULU)

Harry;

Here's a hardy handshake and welcome.

F-class match;

If anyone is interested, the shooting club I'm in has F-class matches. It's at 600 and 1000 yards. Just off Interstate 10 in Mississippi, near the Alabama line.

Like most places I've heard of, the F-class is done during long range high power matches.

There's about 4-6 F-class shooters on average. I hope we can get more.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 23:12:42 (ZULU)

RE: Redding reloading. I won as a prize a substantial discount on Redding reloading gear. I currently am using an RCBS Rockchucker and was looking to upgrade it. I load .308 precision rounds. The rockchucker is fine for that, but would also like to mass produce .45 ACP, .30 carbine, and .223 rounds. I've looked at the Redding catalog, but was hoping from feedback from some of you that already own their stuff. You can hit me off-line.

Thanks,

Mark Johnson

Mark Johnson
Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 23:14:35 (ZULU)

Mark;

I have the Redding 3BR powder measure/dispenser, scale, and tumbler kit. I have found those items to be well made and quite accurate.

LATER

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 00:24:33 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the welcome aboard! I appreciate the advice, but I'm pretty thick skinned. If anything, my wit is apt to rub others the wrong way.

Thanks again.

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 00:59:02 (ZULU)

Jon, you kept that birthday quiet didn't you? wots up scared you'd have to get the beers in?? n you say i'm a tight yorkshireman..All the Best mate, many happy ones ahead eh. All them bloody SSG stocks crack at some point or other, i'f i had one it would be in a McMillan.I'll check on the rail price but how bad is it dammagd? i'd just shorten it and screw it back in and with the rings it looks like he undercharged us for the 26mm ones, told you its got expensive here since the Euro. I'm just planning the teams leave/vacation for 2004, ive put 11.03.04 to 16.03.04 in for me for the IWA, so get Iain thinking about your trip.

Gooch, how long you in Germany? i'm not far from Nurnberg, but i'm in for my knee op on tuesday so i'll be out of it for a couple of weeks, Marc P ain't far though either, be nice to introduce you to weizen beer with banana juice.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 01:04:34 (ZULU)

Harry welcome aboard. I see your from NJ. Where do you shoot? Maybe we can get together one day. Are you going to the Tac Pro match?

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 01:23:53 (ZULU)

Hey Tony,

Thanks for the welcome. I was shooting at the Cumberland Riflemans Inc., until recently when my wife inadvertently mailed my membership in too late. So it looks like I'm back on the waiting list to become a member again...

Right now, I've been shooting at the Falls Township Rifle and Pistol Association in Levittown, Pa. My father has a membership there, so it costs me nothing until I am able to get back on at CRI.

Where is the Tac Pro Match being held? The USANA Range? When is it?

Thanks for the information, Bro.

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 01:46:16 (ZULU)

Harry I shoot at the Central Jersey Club in Jackson. McGuire AF base is directly behind our ranges. We have a 300 yd range. I understand Cumberland has a 600 yd.

The Snipers Paradise Challenge at Tac Pro is in Mingus TX the end of this month. Oct 24-27. I'll be flying into Dallas that Thursday if your going to the match we could meet up. I've been to a couple of there matches and they get better every year. This one promises to be better.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 02:10:03 (ZULU)

Hey Tony,

Damn, Bro... Now I feel like an idiot...I would confuse the match from the site I am a Moderator on...nice. I thought you were speaking to a local match. No, I won't be able to make it out to Texas this year, as I already have departmental training scheduled for this month, during that time frame. I do plan on attending next year...

If you weren't aware, the Marine Corps League Carlos Match is going on up north tomarrow morning, at Cherry Ridge. Of course, I'll be working again, but I hope to catch the end of it.

I wouldn't mind joining Jackson, but I don't really have the four hundred dollars to join and a hundred and fifty a year for membership. It is a very nice range, though.

Cumberland is a lot less, but obviously not nearly as refined as Jackson. My main reason for going south was the 600 yard range. It's the longest one, short of a two to three hour drive into PA for a thousand yard range.

Take care and stay in touch.

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 02:27:27 (ZULU)

Harry; Welcome to something like Paradise or maybe Paradise lost would be more appropriate.

SSG: I really would caution testing anything on a Styer to the breaking point. It seems to be easily attainable on a lot of their stock parts.

Barry; I have to ask if you know for sure that rifle's action wasn't rocking before the trigger was installed. I'd check by taking the trigger out again if its not known for sure. Let's say you determine the trigger is not the problem and maybe it comes from something else I would fill the lug well with fresh bedding compound and tighten the rear screw (no bedding compound anywhere but the lug well yet!) thus bringing the action down on the rear and setting the lug area back to correct height as the mixture hardens. Do tighten the front screw somewhat but nowhere near the 60 inch pounds, actually try not to stress the action at all just cinch it up so it doesn't move while the mixture dries. It's probably a deformity in the stock on a LTR that crept in before you changed the trigger out. The purpose for tightening the rear is so that the action isn't stressed and then bedded which will only cause it to stress each time it's tightened.

We'll see how these instructions go over and what kind of other feed back we get. I've done this with success a few times when the action was being stressed by improper stock dimensions and pillar problems. You might also be sure there isn't something on the stock protruding upward where it shouldn't be but that may be hard to do. Place a bore sighter into the bore center it and then install the action in the stock. There should be less than 4" (usually about 1 square) of vertical movement and no horizonal movement when it's installed (torqued) but be careful you don't bump the sighter as you install it. 0 vertical is very desirable but seldom attained. IF there is still a problem you might bed the rear separately with the front torqued. Maybe someone else has had other experience?????

Brogers
Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 03:44:47 (ZULU)

Lurkers:

Get on board. This is a site frequented by ladies and gentlemen who are happy to share their experience and expertise.

Over half of the donations that Child Bride and I have received for "Goodies for the Grunts" have been from lurkers. And a damn generous lot you are, too.

You folks need to share your knowledge and experience, too.

I already know that a bunch of you have your hearts in the right place.

Now, I'm gonna settle into the double recliner with the Bride, and the Jack Russell between us, and digest the rib-eyes and baked potatoes, and let the coals in the grill burn down. This scenario is brought to you by the brave and selfless men and women of the US, British, and other forces that are hunkered down in tents in the desert, eating MRE's, and waiting for the Santa Major to come back! They make my cushy lifestyle possible.

Just wish I could can this evening and send it over (even if UT is losing to Auburn).

Y'all Stay Safe!

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 04:07:26 (ZULU)

I just love it when night shifts finnish to coincide with going hunting time's of the morning. My last chance to bag another Buck this year, by the time i'm back on my feet again the buck season is done, see if i can sneak up on the one i saw last week, and it just stopped raining. yeah !. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 05:22:53 (ZULU)

Barry,

What Two Shoes said.

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 05:48:45 (ZULU)

Hi all...new to board this year..old fogey from the past

Chris
Jones, AL, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 07:28:13 (ZULU)

Posted by Harry: "If you weren't aware, the Marine Corps League Carlos Match is going on up north tomarrow morning, at Cherry Ridge. Of course, I'll be working again, but I hope to catch the end of it."

Harry, the Carlos match at Cherry Ridge in NJ isn't today. It's the 19th so you can still make it. I'll be going down with a few friends. Maybe we'll see you there. Here's the info posted at Sniper's Hide by Greg for anyone else interested:

8th Annual Carlos Hathcock Match

Precision Rifle, 300 Yards

All Marines, Marine Corps League members, invited guests. Members of the Cherry Ridge Range and their guests.

$20.00

Cherry Ridge Range 300 Yard Line

Sunday, October 19th, 08300 hours squadding, firing at 0900 hours

Awards by Louis System:

Individual Marine: 1st & 2nd place in class A, B & C.

Individual Civilian: 1st & 2nd place in class A, B & C.

4-Man Team: 1st place in class A, B & C.

Special Awards:

High Individual Marine shooter

High Individual Civilian shooter

Any rifle that is legal in the State of N.J., except bench rest.

Any sights

No incendiary, tracer or armor-piercing allowed.

20 Rounds for record plus sighters

Speedwell Press TQ-20, 14” x 20” Bull 2 ½” x 4”

Bipod and non-commercial rests are allowed.

5 minutes will be given for sighters, during which coaching is allowed.

There will be 20 minutes to fire 20 Rounds for record, during which no coaching is allowed. No radio communication between line and butts by shooters allowed

All scoring will be done in the pits. Each round will be individually scored. Patches must match area hit, no black patches are to be used for aiming points.

Hits in the marked area of the head will count as 10 points plus a 1 point bonus for a total of 11 points.

Hits in the marked area of the chest will count as 10 points.

Hits in the grey area will be 9 points.

Hits in the outside black area will be 8 points.

Hits outside of the black area are misses.

All shooters are required to do butt duty.

Failure to do butt duty will cause the shooter to be disqualified

Rob01
Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 11:47:57 (ZULU)

Pete L.

You've got mail!

Marc Palmer
Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 12:57:15 (ZULU)

Jewel trigger installation:

I believe the first Jewell I installed into an H-S stock was hindered by the adjustment screws on the front of the trigger assembly. The Remington screws are flush at most and the Jewell's I believe (if I recall correctly) were not-flush... "Dremel Tool Man" fixed it.

General catch-up

My son called from Germany... he was the second soldier in the battery to get leave... he's relaxing with his wife at home for a few weeks.

Heading out to Colorado soon... going on an elk hunt... met a fella here locally that has a large family contingent in Colorado... said I could go along with him and shoot all the elk I want ;) and they'd tag 'em...Said they usually see elk in the distance but can't hit them to well. I've been "training" him for about 2 years now..last year he took an M24 style 308 back and got 2 elk and a mule deer. I'm taking the 6.5 x 284 and trusty 308 Win.. He's got two (2) cow tags and I'll have one tag, don't know how many tags the family has.

Take care.

Dave "Doc" King
USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 13:20:40 (ZULU)

Rob thanks for providing the Marine League match date. I wasn't sure if it was the 12th or the 19th. I'll probably be there again this year.

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 13:33:29 (ZULU)

Welcome Harry,

This place can always use another correctional/moderator/officer. :)) I was impressed with the order in which you listed your credentials. Father, first! Excellent. Welcome aboard.

Peter L.

Good luck with the Knee surgery.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 13:54:24 (ZULU)

Hey Everyone,

Thanks again for the warm welcome. I've always felt that being a Father is my greatest accomplishment thus far. ;)

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the assistance with my cranio-rectum inversion... I apparently I got my wires crossed somewhere. For some reason I was thinking today...

Thanks again.

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 15:48:15 (ZULU)

No problem Harry. Now hopefully you can make it and get to shoot instead of getting there in the afternoon and just watching. It would be nice to meet you in person. That's one of the best parts about the match next to the shooting of course.

Tony hopefully you can make it too. If not I'll see you at ASC#3 next year. ;)

Rob01
Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 16:47:26 (ZULU)

Hey Brother,

I'll try and push for the day off tomarrow! I'd like to get to meet as many of the Cyber Snipers as possible, too. It's nice to be able to put a face and voice to a login. ;)

I don't mind coming out there and thoroughly embarrassing myself...it's part of the fun.

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 17:24:06 (ZULU)

Have you seen what Overstock.com is offering? You can buy stuff from their site and they will ship it APO to folks in Iraq.

They did something similir for our guys in Afghanistan. They let the soldiers order $50,000 of whatever Overstock.com could offer.

Scott Smith
Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 18:47:12 (ZULU)

Harry if you can't get the regular leave then that's what they made sick leave for, important stuff like shooting ;)

So how many of the DR guys are going to make the Carlos in NJ? I know Medic Jim will be there, Lito maybe, Tony probably, and hopefully Harry. Who else? We should wear nametags with our online names what boards we post on LOL

Rob01
CT, - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 18:58:24 (ZULU)

Hey Rob,

Ahh...were that it was so easy...My department has home verification...if I don't come in, they can and will call. Though it hasn't happened yet, they are also permitted to visit my home during my shift, to verify my presence...

We'll see how it plays out. ;)

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 23:56:59 (ZULU)

Speaking of matches, is anyone else going to the Texas State Long-Distance Championship next weekend in Mineral Wells?

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 00:04:28 (ZULU)

Message deleted

Michael
CA, USA - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 00:14:30 (ZULU)

Harry,

Welcome aboard from an old squid airdale. Always nice to have new blood to keep us old farts in line. I'm sure you'll enjoy this site as the guys here are a great bunch.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 00:34:16 (ZULU)

Harry - welcome...we've got a whole jersey continegent now!

Rob, I may not make the Carlos match... I realized about a week back that it is on my weddding anniversary...I'm trying to work something where I bring the wife along and then take her out shopping and to dinner.... The baby makes it a hard sell, she doesn't like all day and evening babysitters, not even grandma.

medicjim
Monday, October 6, 2003, at 01:03:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just back from the first hunt of this deer season. Missed the opener and had been sick two days previously. Had to get out of the house.

Started hunting about 1:00 PM. Stalking...lots if fresh sign. Critters had been moving this morning, obviously. Worked my way back in a little over a mile on trails and old skid roads. Deer and elk sign abounded.

Rewarded about 3:00 PM with sighting of a cougar. Big cat was not spooked and was about 80 yards away. Gave me a rear, front, and side profile for about a minute and a half. Could have bagged him easily. Cougar tag in my pack. Didn't shoot as I'm a meat hunter and am glad to see the big cats come back. Have seen two this year.

O.K., so I'm turning into a big softy. If I don't eat it I generally don't shoot it. Besides, the 250 grainer would have made it a bitch for the taxidermist...;-)

Spotted a very nice doe a bit later. Not spooked and an easy shot...no doe tag for the Alsea unit. Besides, who wants to stop hunting that early?

All in all a superb day. Fresh air and a nice hike with some critters seen to boot. Only thing could have made it better would have been to have horns on one of them.

Called my gunsmith friend and told him he could have filled his cougar and doe tag. Said thanks, but I'm stocking YOUR Mannlicher.

YeeHaw! That's almost as good as bagging a buck.

To all going hunting, good luck. At least with this crew I don't have to remind anyone to be safe.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 04:38:40 (ZULU)

Wes, now i'm jealouse of some ones hunting stories !! i thought you could eat cougars? I had to pass up on a buck again this morning, once again a case of no back stop, guess i'll have to wait untill next year for him. Got invited to a pheasant/small game hunt on 8th Nov (my birthday) down near Munich, supposed to be the dogs bollocks as far as pheasant shooting goes here in Germany so i'm gonna have to attend i think..

Marc, which mail addy did you use. anke_pete@t-online is no longer valid.

John. thanks.

Dave Doc King, tell your son if he gets a need for fresh air requires some hunting RnR to gimme a call, but to wait a week or two, and enjoy the hunt Doc. right, 19 mins left on shift and then 3 weeks off sick, in for the deep sleep with the knee tommorow, never had a full anashthetic (sp) so i'll catch y'all later.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 05:54:30 (ZULU)

>>>Speaking of matches, is anyone else going to the Texas State Long-Distance Championship next weekend in Mineral Wells?<<<

Lindy,

Ya got a link on that? I can't make it but would like to see the range schedule for the year.

$14,000 to take a bullet.....

Click on my name.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 06:13:43 (ZULU)

Hey Doc and Jim,

Thanks again for the welcome guys.

Jim, your a braver man then I for even thinking about shooting a match on your Anniversary. ;) Doc, I'm much more a student then a teacher, but I'll try and do my part...

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 07:10:06 (ZULU)

Ok, Chris and all you long range F class types, Have you got any voodoo wind reading secrets? Specifically how do you spot a small wind change in the order of 1or 2 mph in an average of 5 to 6 mph. I couldn’t see any obvious change in the flags and the mirage ( well, what little there was) looked the same to me. Do I just need more practice?

Ok let me explain the background, I only shoot 1000yards a couple of times a year. Last weekend I was shooting in a competition at four figure 11’s ( 4’x18”advancing man) on a 10’ x6’ backer. We had 30secs to fire up to 4 sighters. These would be marked with spotting disks but we would only get to see them when the targets reappeared for the first string of four shots to count. The first exposure was for 50 secs there would be a further 4 exposures each reduced by 10 seconds.( so the final four shots had to be taken in 20 secs.) Only one shot on each target to count per exposure. All shots would be marked with spotting disks but we would only see these when the targets reappeared on the next exposure. I was using my .223 for the first time at 1000yards. (20” heavy barrel AR type, loopie 14x scope) I had zeroed that morning in about a 4mph (ish) wind along with my 308 ( remmy 700VS, loopie 20x scope) and there was little to choose between them but the .223 was producing tighter groups so I went with that for the comp. If you’re interested the .223 was 75grA-Max over 24.5grVarget running at 2750 fps( loaded long to 2.40”OAL), elevation 43min up from 100yard zero and 7 mins of wind. The .308 was 175gr SMK over 44.5gr Varget @2640fps, elevation 44mins up on 100yard zero and 7mins wind. The .223 was holding about a 12 “ group and the 308 was about the same across but stringing vertically to about 24”. On two strings I managed to put three of my four shots smack in the middle of the 6”gap between the targets (and I assume the fourth missed right) AARGH! Any tips , apart from shoot more at 1000 yards in the wind?….. By the way the 1000 yard stage was won by a lady shooter with a borrowed .260 Remmington. 16 scoring hits out of 20. She had about half the wind on that I had and 30mins elevation to 1000 yards. Of course we ripped the piss out of the guy who loaned her the rifle! Sorry - that translates as, ribbed him for not being able to shoot his own gun as well as the lady in question. Looks like my 308 may become a .260 when I can hide enough funds in the Black Budget……Glad my wife’s not a lurker!

Just catching up on the roster so I know these are a bit late but…

Barry ,

on the rocking action my money’s on the mag well. Make sure it’s all in properly( and the right way up, ahem…. I managed to do that once and couldn’t figure out why the bolt wouldn’t close every third or fourth attempt… doh!)

Medic Jim,

you won’t be sorry if you switch to the 77’s. I don’t know if you’ll be able to push them fast enough to match your scope but they are probably the best .223 mag length bullet for the(1in 8) .223 that I’ve found. Much better in the wind than the 69’s. I also found the 69 didn’t do as well for me above 2800 , besides I use Varget so I couldn’t get any more powder in the case, and although I run my 77’s at 2700-2750 I get slightly better accuracy at about 100fps slower in my 20”1in 8 barrel, but I’d rather have the slightly flatter trajectory and better wind performance.

Looks like I might be headed to New York around the 19th on Business. With any luck I might actually get to spend more than two hours in the week to look around this time. Last time I fell foul of the fact that the word “urgent” in New York seems to mean some time before Hell freezes over…Tried to order some stuff from cheaper than dirt to ship to the New York office so I could pick it up but they wouldn’t take a UK credit card :-((. Midway and most others are out of stock so I suppose I’ll just have to pay more and get it from brownells. Still a lot cheaper than over here though. You guys have it lucky!

Mark D

Mark D
London, UK - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 11:23:11 (ZULU)

Medic Jim,

Tell your wife it's her turn on the list of shooting match widows to go to a match and show support. I brought my wife to ASC#2 and now it's her turn ;) Just kidding but hopefully you can get there. Anniversary is a tough thing to work around.

Harry,

Too bad about the sick leave. Hopefully you can make it. I'm not a big sick leave abuser myself as I've only called in once this year. My department can call but they never have and they are too lazy to come to the house. LOL Hopefully you can swap or get the leave.

Rob01
Monday, October 6, 2003, at 11:58:34 (ZULU)

Mk4 - the Mineral Wells match information was up on the TSRA web site. That site has links to match information - click on my name for the link - but I don't know of anything specifically for Ft. Wolters. I'll ask when I'm up there.

Mark D. - if your .308 is taking 44 minutes of elevation to 1000 yards with a 175 SMK at 2640, there's probably something wrong. Mine takes 32 minutes at 2670. Perhaps you meant 34 minutes.

As for reading the wind, that's something I'm still working on. You have to read both the flags and the mirage, I'm told, as well as pay attention to what you can feel and hear. But a one mph wind at 1000 will move a 175 SMK a full MOA, which is ten inches, so it's real easy to misjudge by that amount. Right now, I'm still trying to make sure to check for direction shifts, which will get you completely off the target if your miss one. I'll be shooting a match next month in a place where the wind blows 20 knots on average, which ought to be, well, enlightening. Personally, I think it's magic.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 13:11:24 (ZULU)

Hi Lindy,

thanks for the prompt reply. Nope, its definately 44 minutes up from my 100yard zero for the 308. Exbal says it should be 38 minutes but it has been 44 minutes everytime so far. Exbal said the .223 A-Max should be 36.5 but I had to come up another 5.5 on that. Exbal has been pretty close on everything else up to 600yards and meters so far. This wind reading stuff is certainly a black art. It's soul destroying to land your shots right where you indended at 1000 yards one minute and then mysteriously miss by a consistant ammount the next! If only it had been a 2mph change it would have blown me onto the next figure 11 and I'd only have had one miss per string, Ha! If it had been a normal 1000 yard target it would probably stilll have been an 8 or 9. I guess that's why the Army use the 338!

Mark Dougan
London, UK - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 13:49:41 (ZULU)

Laser Rangerfinders, Spotting Scopes and Hunting Bullets:

The consensus for laser range finders seems to be Leica, so I worked out a trade for me doing some refinishing and obtained a Leica 800 LRF with little cash out of pocket, which arrived Friday. If I had several hundred dollars extra cash, I would get the 1200, but for limited distances I am now shooting and the money factor, I am very happy with this rangefinder.

Compared to the Bushnell 800 I formerly had, there is no comparison. I used to have trouble reading the digital range figure on the Bushnell, and the focus was always poor. The Leica rangefinder is bright in all light conditions (it adjusts brighness of the readout), and the image is as sharp as looking through good glass. Looking at the rangefinder image and then looking through my Zeiss 7 x binoculars side by side, I see no difference in razor sharp clarity of image. The Leica 800 LRF is now on sale at SWFA for a good price.

Interestingly, on my Leica 800, it was originally traded by a board member who bought the 1200 when it came out -- to Mike (undude), who then traded it to the most recent owner, a Marine who prefers mildot ranging who traded it to me. It has been in good hands. I hope some of it wears off on me if you are known by the company you keep, so to speak.

Now, all I have to do is find someone with a spotting scope who will trade out some refinishing plus cash if necessary to reduce my cash expenditure. I am planning on getting a KOWA and decided to just pay cash when I can afford it if necessary. Get top quality and you do not regret it and get cheap optics, and you always wish you had gone the extra mile. Most on what I have read recommend a KOWA. That is the next goal.

If any one has any thoughts on spotting scopes, feel free to post. I have read the archives on this subject.

Bullet choice: Due to the wise comments on this board from other hunters, I will obtain and test for bullet path other hunting grade bullets and hunt with a different bullet than the Fed Gold Match bTHP 168. I guess the difference is on the one hand, when a law enforcement sniper is forced to fire to save a life, the officer is aiming at a perp's head with the gold match where shock value and fluid displacement on even a marginal hit would be deadly, yet on a deer with a large cavity, you need a bullet to expand to be sure and down the game. While I was lucky to kill my deer with the heart shot with the gold match, I might not always be so accurate particularly at longer distances or wind

tschiemer
ark, usa - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 15:09:51 (ZULU)

Mark D. - well, JBM is the ballistics program I use, and it's been accurate to within a half MOA or so, at altitudes ranging from sea level where I live to 6600 feet. If I tell it I am shooting a Sierra 175 SMK - I use the intermediate BC of .496 - at 2640 fps, under dense air conditions of a temp of 32 degrees F with 100 percent relative humidity, it tells me that I'll need 39.4 minutes to get to 1000. If I found, as you say, that it took 44 minutes, I'd seriously question the calibration accuracy of my sights. Of course, if you're getting a good elevation with that setting, for competitive purposes that's fine, but it might make unknown distance shooting a bit tricky since you can't reliably calculate a comeup for a distance or under conditions you haven't shot. If all you do is shoot paper at matches with sighting shots, it's not a problem.

So far as the wind goes, I'm going to shoot a lot. (Oh, darn). In fact, I'm off to the range now. Good luck with your shooting!

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 15:54:33 (ZULU)

Lindy,

good point on the sights calibration. I must admit I haven't run the square test on scope and measured the actual point of impact shift versus the dialed correction. I just counted clicks for return to zero and assumed Leupold/premier would have got the measurements right. Thats another little job for my next trip to the range.

Still learning,

Mark D

Mark Dougan
London, Uk - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 16:33:48 (ZULU)

I would like to hear some openions on the McMillan A4 stock curently used on the the U.S.M.C. M40 A3. And if at all Possible a Comparison to the HS Presicion stock curently used on the Armys M24. I have a remington model 700 vs with the HS presicion stock with adjustable length of pull and all together the rilfe ways 20- 21 pounds i would like to see how much it would way with the A4 stock and also while the swelled palm grip is nice on my stock the A4's grip looks to be more comfortable. just looking for info and openions.

Charles.

Charles Morris
Austin, Texas, United States - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 17:21:56 (ZULU)

Lindy,

There's an "improved" version of the JBM program at

http://www.mega.nu:8080/traj.html

This version lets you put in BC/velocity breakpoints and the program figures out what BC to use based on the velocity for the point being calculated. It may be more accurate than JBM's original, if you know more than one BC/velocity pair.

The drop results are within 1% of Sierra's Infinity program for at least one long range calculation. That difference may be entirely due to the numerical integration method used in the two programs.

The modifications were made by Daniel Pouzzner, I think with JBM's knowledge and concurence.

Mike

BMG Mike
Monday, October 6, 2003, at 17:49:57 (ZULU)

Thanks Mike - site noted!

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 19:25:49 (ZULU)

Mark D.,

If I could read wind that well, I'd have won every match I entered. I'm lucky when I catch a 5mph wind change,, that's why I shoot a FagMag.

223 at 1K is a tedious and frustrating endeavor. Best of luck to you.

Chris...

Chris
Monday, October 6, 2003, at 20:18:46 (ZULU)

Thanks Chris,

Can't be much clearer than that. I'll quit while I'm not TOO far behind. I see a long .260 barrel in my future.......

Mark D

Mark D
London, UK - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 20:49:19 (ZULU)

Long time lurker and first time poster. Refering to previous question

of 2 weeks ago about ReamerRental web site as source of Loopie scopes:

Irecently ordered and received within 3 days a Mark 4 M1 for $1106 with free

shipping, the usual BC covers and sun shade. They have the best

selection of Loopies I have seen anywhere and very fast professional

service. Looks like their entire business is reamers and Loopies.

Thanks. I have learned alot from lurking. Just assembling my first

tactical long range rifle. Lilja bbl, Macmillan A3, Rem 700 SA .308,

DD Ross top and bottom metal. Just waiting for gunsmith to put pile

of parts together.

Bruce Burnham
Ephraim, Utah, USA - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 21:27:03 (ZULU)

Cold Bore shot to see if I'm on the roster........

Thanks Marius for the attention and luck to ya on your exams.

Fernley

Fernley
Oneonta, NY , - Monday, October 6, 2003, at 23:44:34 (ZULU)

Hi guys. I'm a lurker (for a short while) and a newbie.

Actually, I would like to get some advice on the purchase of my first quality long range rifle. Lurking has already got me some good info, but I've also been shopping and am now the proud possessor of some contradictory info - also from people who know more than I do.

I would like to do some fun shooting (not particularly competitive) out to 1000 yards - just for the heck of it. I am not planning on doing much modification of the rifle. Think "out of the box".

A short while ago "The Shooter" (?) posted his recommendation for a starter:

Remington 700 PSS .308

Leupold Vari-X III

Badger Ordenance rings

Badger Ordenance tilted Scope Base

Harris Swivel Bipod S-L

Military style sling

Other posters seemed to think this was very good advice.

Even earlier someone posted that "out of the box" the Savage was probably slightly better than the Remington. For what I want (and money isn't too much of a problem) can I/should I substitute savage for remington and leave everything else the same? Or am I getting in too deep for a beginner?

Thanks, I've got about 8 more questions (a bunch of them things I noticed had NOT ever been mentioned on this site), but, I'll post them later to keep things simple.

David

David
Monday, October 6, 2003, at 23:47:01 (ZULU)

David,

Stick with what was reccommended.....I consider that the base, for a beginners rig, and a good one.( NO Savage).

David,

Stick with the H S Stock you have, or go with the A3/5 McMillan, the A4 sucks IMHO.( preferably the A3 for prone, for carry, combo, A5.)

HOW did you get that rig to weigh 21#'s?

You using a #12 taper?....LOL

Two Shoes

Terry
Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 01:05:02 (ZULU)

"Goodies for the Grunts" balance stands at $139.12.......when it gets a little higher, it's back to the Smoke Shop on the Rez.......

Joe suggested Christmas cards for the troops, with notes of appreciation and encouragement.

After talking with my pharmacist (who props up my ole tired body with various pills and potions!), I am proud to announce that he is setting up a table in his store, next to his greeting card section, for just that purpose. Child Bride and I will gather the cards weekly and shoot them to Joe for distribution.

Child Bride's colleagues in the TN school system have also pounced on this idea. There will be several classes there writing Christmas cards to our service men and women, to remind them that they are remembered, loved and appreciated. (Joe's name and address will remain confidential).

We plan on getting them all out before Thanksgiving to allow sufficient lead time.

Anybody out there wonder why people from all over the world want to come here?

Y'all Stay Safe!

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 01:11:42 (ZULU)

Welcome lurkers, isn't it more comfortable out o' the closet?

21 POUNDS????? edit to add: Hope you're not weighin powder with those scales! :))

Bruce,

If I forward the cash to cover shipping will you forward the Christmas card(s) from Marlin Elementary? Just the 4th grade I think.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 01:40:07 (ZULU)

Terry,

Just for my edification, could you please elucidate on the "NO Savage"? Not that I don't believe you, I just want to learn.

Thanx,

David

David
Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 02:56:41 (ZULU)

Thinking about ordering a TBA M40a3 in 308 win. Can any of you guys who own TBA's give me some feedback?? Thanks!!

Chad

chad howell
Chesapeake, VA, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 03:14:24 (ZULU)

Chris in AL;

Welcome. Where is Jones? Are you near Mobile?

David;

I shoot a Savage. I like it a lot. It's the older model with the crappy trigger. New ones with the Accu-trigger are supposedly really sweet. Only thing I regret about it when shooting matches is the 24" barrel length. Should be longer.

The only real draw back to a Savage is the lack of aftermarket parts. If money really isn't important, look at one of their package 10FP rifles with the scope, bipod, and McMillan stock. Damn I wish they had that 5 years ago!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 03:28:29 (ZULU)

David,

I myself am a lurker (honest, I was waiting for my password! Best wishes on your exams Marius!!). Mainly shooting F-class right now but the tactical matches sound/look pretty interesting.

Anyway, here is my two cents on what to do for a starter rifle. Some ranting may ensue.

I would have to vote for a Win 70 Stealth; however, I did have mine set back about 0.5 inches, chamber cut with reamer that allowed me to seat 175 SMK at 2.800 with about 0.050 jump, and the crown recut. Spent a whopping $150 to have that work done. Well worth the price! You'll save yourself at least $150 worth of frustration, primers, powder, and bullets by having the barrel set back.

I have a Rem 700 POS.....ummmm.....PSS 308 and as you can tell, I'm not impressed. Currently in the shop for truing and 5R, M24 contour barrel.

Back to the 70 Stealth, I'd suggest bedding the rifle. I'm partial to Pro-bed 2000 but Marine-Tex would be a close second. This is not going to make the absolute accuracy better, just keeps the rifle consistant.

Vari-X III is good choice. 4.5-14X40mm Tactical (1 inch tube) would be the minimum, the 30mm scopes are better but cost more $. If there is any chance your going to get into shooting long range, spent the $ up front, one time; that way you don't have a $500 scope sitting around or having to sell. Course you would then have a really good reason to buy another rifle!! 6.5-20X LR Tactical would be my recommendation if $ are not a problem.

Redding dies (Standard neck sizer, competition seater), Lapua brass, CCI BR2 primers, 175 JLK VLD (seated 0.020 inch into rifling) if you are not going to run the rounds out of the magazine or 175 SMK if you are using the magazine, powder choice.....N-140, Varget, RL-15. If one of those powders doesn't work your doing something wrong. My rifle likes RL-15 over Varget and has shot some great F-class scores.

Summary:

Win 70 Stealth (set back, rechambered, recrowned)

Bed with Pro-bed 2000

Leupold LR Tactical 6.5-20X50mm M1 style knobs

Badger tapered base

Badger rings

Since I'm an F-class weenie I use a front rest and rear bag; not able to give you much recommendation for the bipod, sling portion.

I'm slipping into ramble mode so I'll stop.

F-class shooter
South of ABQ, NM, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 04:12:24 (ZULU)

Chris,

You have E-Mail - No attachments!

Thanks for your time,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 04:19:23 (ZULU)

David,

I have the exact same Remington rifle that someone outlined for you earlier. I'm super happy with it. I'm also a newbie, so keep that in mind when you hear my 2 cents worth.

With my Rem 700 VS (Not PSS 'cause I'm a leftie), I've shot 1/2 MOA at 100 yds and 3/4 MOA at 300 yards with the stock rifle. I'm pretty happy with that. I think the rifle shoots as good as I'll ever need it to.

Don't skimp on the base and rings. If you don't get the sloping base, you can't get out to 1000 yds. Trust me, I learned the hard way and bought them twice. Just don't do it. Buy them used to save money. They're tough.

On the scope, get the Leupold. I got the Vari X M3 3.5 x 10. I like the M3 because it's simple. You don't need to turn the elevation knob more than 1 full turn to get out to 1000 yds. You will sacrifice some adjustment though as the M3's elevation knob is in 1 MOA increments. The M1 is in 1/4 MOA. As someone here once told me..."don't get too wrapped around the axle on the 1MOA adjustment".

Here is the beauty of the M3. The yardage indicators are on the elevation knob so it's simple to adjust. No guessing at how many MOA you need to adjust. The first time I took the rifle out, I sighted it in at 100M. I then went to the long range and shot at the 200 - 500 M gongs that we have at our club. I adjusted the scope to the preset yardage marks on my scopes elevation knob and sure enough...I smacked the center of each gong. I couldn't believe that it worked so well. Of course you have to use 168 grain 2650 Velocity ammo for that to happen. I like Black Hills Match Hollowpoints.

If I could do anything over, I'd probably get the 4-14x scope or higher. The 10x is fine out to about 600 yds, and I've never tried it past that, but I think 1000 yds might be pushing it.

By the way, I think the only Savages worth considering are the ones with the McMillan stocks. If you go to the store and pick up a regular synth stock, you'll find that you can flex it easily with your hand. I've heard they're accurate out of the box.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Those are some of the questions that I had. The guys on this sight really know their stuff. Listen to them. I wish I would have on the rings and mounts.

Good luck!

Corbett

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 04:45:59 (ZULU)

I think i need to get a new scale this old thing is going nutty. well i do realy like the HS Precision stock i have on there now i just think the more verticle pistol grip style of the McMillan stocks looks more comfy any one with experience and or openions on that?

Charles Morris
Austin, Texas, United States - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 05:47:05 (ZULU)

Acehigh,

You get the cards to us, and we put them into a box of other stuff for Joe. No postage necessary.

Baby wipes are what get the postage meter excited. Them puppies are heavy!

Cards are a piece of cake. Y'all get 'em to us, we'll get 'em to Joe. Just make sure that if it is a non-school, public kind of thing, that the writers don't put any negative s**t in them.

Thanks, folks. Just try to imagine what it would mean to you if you were running commo on a mountaintop in A'stan to get a pack of goodies and a Christmas card from an elementary school student in the world.

We gotta find a Santa beard for Joe!

On another note:

Just bought a box of #8's, 2 3/4" 12 ga. shells to stoke my old (30 years plus) Rem. 1100 with. The sandhill cranes, curlews, snow and canada geese and kingfishers are now migrating back through NM. It's wonderful, but......

With them came the SOB of a woodpecker that is (again) trying to excavate a home in my stucco. That's who the #8's are for.

Wish me luck.

Y'all Stay Safe, and God Bless.......

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 05:47:16 (ZULU)

Thanks guys,

Between what I dug out of the archives and what you have told me, I now have a lot of information (no answers, but then what do I expect?).

Anyway, I'm starting to settle in to what I may buy. However, I have already been shopping, and have had several items offered and discussed which never seem to be mentioned here. I was wondering if they are not so good? Or good, but not worth the money? Or were good, but not any more?

Nikon scopes

KDF Titan II scope by Voere

Kimber rifles

Single set triggers

Is mil dot REALLY better?

Also, I've never done anything w the Savage Accu Trigger, except dry fire one a few times. Personally I hated it. It felt like 1/4 inch of creep. However, I can't find anything but good opinions, so I am probably wrong and will have to adjust if I do go Savage. I've got lots of positive info on the Accu Trigger - any one have any negatives?

I also had a chance to pick up a vari power Leupold up to 50x. I passed - 50x seemed like an awful lot.

Thanx, let the ranting begin . . .

David

David
Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:15:01 (ZULU)

Chad, Call George at GA Precision 816-221-1844 and discuss your rifle project and what you are thinking. He might be able to provide some good thoughts.

Michael
CA, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 06:18:12 (ZULU)

David: I asked the match director of an upcoming tactical match if laser range finders would be acceptable. He answered yes, they would, but that other ranging methods would be necessary, as some targets would be partially obscured by foliage and other things which would make the use of a LRF impractical. Does that happen in real life for a tactical shooter? Bet on it. "Other methods" means a mildot scope.

Further, if you're shooting a variable scope, you want that capability usable at any magnification, which means that you want a scope with a Premier Reticle Gen II modification, which means you want a Leupold. So much for scopes, if you're going to shoot tactical matches. If you're just gonna shoot targets at known distances, then you don't need mildots.

Set triggers are not suitable for tactical rifles. Think about having to shoot a moving target while standing with a very light trigger. Oops.

I read the archives here while pondering what rifle to start with. I'm a poor retired guy, and I couldn't afford to buy a bad rifle. I got a Model 70 HBV, and I haven't been sorry - I'll be shooting the Texas Long Distance Championship with it this weekend. Savages may be good for people who have enough gunsmithing skills to bed them, restock them, and fix other things which may be wrong with them, but if you haven't those skills, you may want to stick with another option.

My recommendation is to get a rifle from George Gardner, Terry Cross, HD Rifles, or other good smith to start with. Then, when you're having difficulties getting the results you want, you'll KNOW that the problem is with your shooting technique or your ammo, not with the rifle. If you have a good local smith, then a stock Remington or Winchester might do it for you - but if something's wrong with it, you're going to have to send it off anyway. Fool around with equipment that may not work when you have enough experience to know both what you're doing and exactly what you want. And if it turns out that you don't like this kind of shooting, you can get most of your money back by selling the rifle. That's my opinion, worth what you paid for it, probably.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 12:16:12 (ZULU)

Chad in VA- Personal, clean email sent, no attachments. Sam.

Seuss
PA, USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 13:24:23 (ZULU)

Tactical Rifle? What's that? Is it a 21 lb. crew served Winchester Club? Or a 20" fairly stiff barreled custom trued Remington 700... on and on? Or is it a $400 Savage with small Pillars and a fairly flimsy stock and a Rube Goldberg trigger? Or a AR-10 Flat top? or perhaps a AR30 in 338? or .50 Barrett Semi auto...I guess it must be all the above since they've all been labled that here and other places. It must be what you want to call it with however you want to roll it. The scope is another thing. Does it work in total darkness or have illuminated reticles with 50mm objectives. Or is a 1" low profile light weight 5X that goes along on a stalk without all the weight and size of a Mag. Light on your barrel. \

What to begin with? That is the question. Lest I stray too far, lets say it is what you want to use it for.

Considerations are Stock, Type and manf. of Action.

Weight over overall package.

Accuracy of the end result. \

Caliber? .308? Here is where purpose takes over for sure.

Bipod or not?

Ability of the package to range targets.

Mounts must be rugged but not too heavy?

Trigger , A trigger pull that doesn't call for undue actions to get it ready to fire with a no slack predictable pull and a safety that's sure in all kinds of weather conditions.

The cold bore shot.

But lest we not forget the purpose.

Ability to travel without zero loss and ease of handling in tight situations; with ability to range accurately in all kinds of light? (work with that one a while)

Stock design for shooting in all kinds of different positions. Not just NRA match postions.

Forward light reflection and detection probability is a factor.

A barrel length that keeps you hitting in the range you want but doesn't unduly hamper your movement or add to probabilty of detection.

The finish of the rifle that doesn't flash and is easily camoed but doesn't rust overnight in poor weather conditions. As well as the individual parts.

All these things should be considered and no particular brand is going to fill all of them.

The GA Precision "Rock" with the M3 Mil Dot and Badgers comes mighty close to filling it all in the custom class!

The Savage Tactical with a 4.5X14 Leupy Mil Dot and possibly Burris Z Rings with plastic tapered inserts brings up the bottom end with less sacrafice than you would think you'd have to make.

And one more edited thought here.

Stop thinking about winning the next F class or Varmint shooters 1000 yard rifle bingo and start thinking of camo techniques and stalking ability when it comes to tactical practical application.

Apply all the gear you use toward those things instead of getting every gaming advantage on competetion shooting. Think Survival and stealth if you do any other competetion it's not tactical, it's gaming.

Brogers
Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 13:26:53 (ZULU)

David,

BRogers is correct in all his items of interest.

However, for just a start up rig, the one pointed out to you will be more than satisfactory.

As far a no Savage, they may be fine for target/plinking, etc.

But, how many do you see being used by serious shooters?.

Not many, IMHO.

Not saying they aen't good for what they are, just that they are not that popular.( there ususally is a reason for this, esp in these circles).

Assuming you want a learner, and intend on UPgrading later, the Rem package you have will suffice nicely.

I have yet to buy a Rem 700 Varmint contour rifle that would not shoot .75 or better at all distances.

Stealth's, are fine, I just had a batch of poor ones, ( much like Rem PSS's were a year or so ago).

And Rem seems to be more customer oriented than USRAC,(hard to believe, but that's what I found out).i.e. time of repairs.....

Bottom line, you said your a newbie, this is to ME, the basic starter package, that is of value, and will always hold some value.....and you will also be able to use for a custom rig, if you so desire later on, as your skill levels increase.

Just my .02's, and fwiw.

Chad,

On the A3 from TBA, great shooters, and very nice replicas, just be prepared to wait for delivery, at least 12-24 months.( if you can get a better delivery, have a contract drawn up, notarized).

Because you WILL wait...trust me.

Two Shoes

Terry
Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 13:53:49 (ZULU)

Bruce,

Woodpecker story. A couple of years ago, I had a woodpecker problem. Seems they decided my log house was a good place to sharpen their beaks on. Finally, after being woke up early one Saturday morning by "rat-a-tat-tat", I snuck out of the house with my shotgun. As I rounded the corner of the house, three of the little buggers flew from the house. Woodpeckers have a strange way of flying. Sort of an up-and-down motion while they are flying away from you. I swung on the middle one and touched off the 1100, but the bird did not drop. A little while later I went over to my neighbors house to explain what the shooting was all about. While talking with my neighbor, I heard his little kids say "Dad, there is a dead bird in our tree". Sure enough, it was the woodpecker hanging limp in the crotch of a tree. My neighbor tried to tell me that woodpeckers are protected, but I told him that that woodpecker wasn't protected very well. End of woodpecker problem.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 14:14:48 (ZULU)

F-class Shooter,

Welcome to the Duty Roster. There's a lot to be said for "F" class shooting although I've not done any before but do understand the concept and competition involved. I know that Kevin M. and Lindy here make the "Spirit of America" match in Raton every Sept. I hope to make next years match just to get my feet wet. Kent Gooch has a good article (found here on the SC website) on the importance that competitive shooting plays in establishing good basic fundamentals even for those that are interested mostly in tactical events.

http://www.aspiringtech.net/nobull/confessions.html

You and I have visited before and I believe that you have a lot to contribute as you have already shown in your first post. You also stated an interest in making a tactical class. Badlands is a good place to start and Bobby Whittington would be more than glad to visit with you about next years schedule.

http://www.badlandstactical.net

BTW, you might consider giving yourself a shorter moniker. Maybe something like...FCS? Just a thought ;)))

"Blood of Heroes" click on my name.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 17:18:59 (ZULU)

Shooting F-class competitions, particularly the major long-range ones, is really good for learning long-range shooting skills, especially wind reading, because you get immediate feedback from every shot in a match where the targets are pulled and marked after each shot. Folks with tactical rifles are not going to be competitive with people shooting fast and heavy "benchrest on the ground" rifles, although there may eventually be a separate class for us. But if the intent is to learn to shoot better, which is why I go, they're great. And you get to meet other tactical shooters and see how you do against them.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 17:40:58 (ZULU)

I sincerely appreciate the feedback on the TBA guns. I've also taken the advice of several folks and have contacted George @ GA Precision before making any final decisions on what to do. Sent him an email discussing my needs. I like some of the features of the M40a3 but I don't care for the a4 stock or the weight of the a3. Need the gun for tactical precision matches so as long as it gets the job done I'm happy. I talked to Chris at GA Precision and he said to maybe think about getting "the Rock" with an a5 stock upgrade but to discuss it over with George first. Glass plans are Leupy Vari-X III LR Tactical 4.5x14x50 M1 with Badger rings and bases using 2nd Gen USMC Mildot Ret. Has anyone tried the 6x20x50 LR Leupy yet??? If so, how well does it handle mirage?? Any concerns??? Hopefully George will get back with me soon on this. Thanks again for the feedback!!

Chad

Chad Howell
chesapeake, virginia, usa - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 18:12:09 (ZULU)

Chad,

I have a 6.5-20x50 LRT which I had Premier put the M1 knobs on so it's basicly like the new LRM1 models. Mirage does get bad when it's up to 20x and hot out but that's the joy of having a variable powered scope which can be turned down. I'd recommend the scope if you wanted a little more than the 14x at times.

Good choice on rifles also. George will do you well. Sounds like you're almost getting one of the Sniper's Hide rifles with the A5 stock that George just built. Nice rifles.

Rob01
CT, - Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 18:51:18 (ZULU)

I may have sent the wrong message when I said, quit worrying about F class winners. I just meant to get the gaming bug out of your system and choose things that work for tactical match and take the F class wins if you get em. Did not mean to say any kind of shooting is not good practice. carry on!

Brogers
Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 20:54:14 (ZULU)

Bill: Not to worry. I understood what you meant. I just wrote the exposition I did so people who have never seen that kind of match would understand how useful it is to have immediate scoring feedback on every shot, when you can relate it right then to the conditions you had when you fired the shot.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 01:26:57 (ZULU)

Chad, Call me at the Shop, My Email is not exactly working well these days.

G.A. Precision

(816) 221-1844 or

(816) 223-3691 cell

George Gardner
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 01:39:36 (ZULU)

Mk4,

Thank you for the encouragement and the moniker! I'm just not too creative I guess! LOL

Brogers,

I agree with you whole heartedly, F-class is a great training aid to learning how to shoot at long distance. Unless you are willing to have a 6.5-284 single shot, custom action, benchrest/prone stock and put a new barrel on every 750-1000 rounds your probably are not going to win any big F-class matches. However, if you take your trusty 308 Stealth (factory barrel set back, rechambered with shorter throat, crown recut and bedded into the HS stock) use a front rest / rear bag and head to the range you can get a real good idea of what the rifle is capable of. Shooting F-class just helps put a little pressure on you to preform (does for me but may just be the competitive nature), gives you immediate feedback on where your shot went, and you can get some condition information from the wind flags. I try to look at other indicators in conjuction with the wind flags at F-class match so that when I do not have the wind flags I've got some "baseline" idea how much the vegetation moves.

I have shot local F-class match (300,500,600 yards using MR-63 at all ranges: 2.75 inch X, 6 inch 10) using a bipod and it is significantly harder then using the front rest/rear bag. I'd say about 15 points and 10 Xs. Beginning shooters benefit the most by shooting from front rest/rear bag; bipod did not shift in dirt/sand, butstock didn't slip on your shoulder, etc. the rifle was not disturbed and where the round went is function of ammo quality and wind conditions. Removes the "was that me or the rifle/ammo/conditions" dilemma. I've learned a lot about doping for wind since going to a really good front rest (Sinclair) and rear bag (Edgewood). Bottom line is that no matter how much you get into gaming with the equipment, no amount of equipment will make up for missing a condition change. Sorry......sliiiippppiiinnnggg into ramble mode.

David the Newbie,

Listening to Brogers, Two Shoes, Lindy, Mk4, and the rest of the folks at SC will save you some $ in the long run, prevent lots of frustration, and having you hitting the target at distance. You don't just buy any rifle, put a high magnification scope on it a go punch holes in paper 1000 yds away. Stick with known preformers, may cost you a little more now but you only have to do it once. Rem 700 or Win 70, Leupold glass, Badger mounts, Lapua brass, Sierra bullets.

I had a bad 700PSS, Brogers had bad 70....hey, they all turn out a turd once in a while. Savage.....seen two guys at local match do pretty well with 308 Savage (1 laminated wood stock, 1 ultimate sniper type stock), but they don't win the match either. I've not seem many Savages at big matches, there is a reason for this. I'd rather shoot then search for the reason. Gave you a whole $0.10 on that one, I'll shut up now.

I'm off to the powder room!!

FCS
NM, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 02:28:26 (ZULU)

Just talked to Master Cockerham. Evidently he did well in the match at Butner this weekend. As usual, wind was a factor. Also indicated that the North State Shooting Club has split the F-Class into Tactical and the rest. For to be in the tactical class you have to shoot off a pod and be of caliber 223 or 308. This is great news.

By the by..

If anyone has the comeups for Black Hills 300mag, would appreciate your hitting me offline.

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 02:40:58 (ZULU)

I know you guys here are the experts on spotting scopes so here goes one. I have a chance to buy a Kowa TSN-1 77mm spottingscope. I'm told that it is about 4-5 years old. It has a 40x eyepiece. I'm shooting distances now that require a quality piece. Is this older Kowa a good investment or should I go with one of the newer lines? I can't seem to find any info on this one. Thanks for any advice.

Matt K
Chattanooga, TN, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 02:45:30 (ZULU)

Matt K...

That Kowa is a pretty good piece of glass... I've used one for NRA High Power since 1995 (gawd did that make me feel old seems like yesterday)... anyway, is bears no - repeat NO resemblance to being waterproof and WILL FOG if you play in the rain. That said, I've had mine out in several "Camp Perry monsoons" and it dries out just fine if you pull the eyepiece off.

It really depends on what you wanna use it for and how much it's gonna cost ya to make it yer own. New they were about $750 - $1000 with an eye piece depending on whether you got the fluorolite lenses (big $$$$, most guys I know didn't get them).... You're in that same range ~$750 for the new Kowa (TSN 88 ??)and it is a bit more water resistant. It's also bigger and heavier with a slightly larger lense.

Search the archives on this one as we beat this horse several times over the years..... If you want mildots in it then your only option is a loopy from Premier.

BTW - Guys, if anyone knows where I can get my hands on a 25x LER eyepiece for the TSN1 at a reasonable price email me I'm not sure the eyepiece is under warranty and mine is showing it's mileage.

MEDICJIM - did the postman make a delivery yet??

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 03:06:55 (ZULU)

Steve,

Thanks for the info. Some of the newer Kowas are "supposed" to be totally waterproof. That is what they claim on their website. We get some VERY high humidity here in Chattanooga, and I am beginning to believe that having a waterproof spotting scope would be a wise choice. BTW- I believe that Champion's Choice in Nashville, TN has your 25x eyepiece.

Matt K
Chattanooga, TN, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 03:36:25 (ZULU)

Matt,

How far are you from Champions??? If you can go there, you'll likely be able to lay yer hands and eyeballs on several different spotters... look at them side by side. They set up a rack of scopes outside the door at Perry and you can look out over Rodriguez range and compare the different glass.....

I doubt they have the TSN1 eye piece as the TSN1 went out of production not too long after they brough out the new model... but then again I'm not so sure that the new one won't fit either. I'll give them a call and see what they say.

Hey Fatboy,

Matt here is from your neck 'O de woods...Ju wanna talk wit dis guy .... yes? Set him down the the right path...

Oh, and it is the RAIN that caused issues with the TSN1's not so much humidity.... got in around the eyepiece and the focus knob. I've seen lense covers made from alminum with a watch crystal epoxied in the top for see through... then you just had to keep the focus knob dry.... It sounds like this is a used scope..... how much I'd pay really depends on the condition of it.... Look at the other Kowa's too, the smaller ones are a little cheaper and can be every bit as good..... they are not a Unertal team scope - but then again nothing is (I read the headline of a newspaper at 500 yards with one of those suckers!)

Steve

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 04:46:26 (ZULU)

Hello,

This will probably be my last request for info. I've pretty much decided what I will get.

HOWEVER (isn't there always?): I have just met a guy using the exact setup recommended to me EXCEPT he is using a Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000. He's good.

Any comments? I can probably afford it, but is it fragile? Gross overkill for anyone not going for the olympics? etc.?

Thanks.

David
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 05:33:24 (ZULU)

David,

Please define "he's good".

Has this guy let you shoot the rifle?

How are you planning on using the rifle?

How soon before you start shooting tactical style and or F-class type matches?

Which B&L 4000 are we talking about: 2.5-10 (not enough X), 4-16 (getting there), 6-24 (thats what I'd use), or 8-32 (probably too much X and eye relief will be short).

What reticle does scope have?

Have you gotten to look through this scope?

Leupolds are easy to get behind, eye relief is long enough and exit pupil is large enough that you don't have to struggle. Other scopes are not configured so nicely. I've got a 6-24 Burris that I have no problems with but my shooting buddy really struggles to get his head in correct position when at 24X.

Look through the scope, if at all possible, to see what you see. If you can get behind the scope without struggling to get a full field of view then you've got half the battle won. If you can shoot the set up as is before purchasing, make scope adjustments and see how well the scope tracks and returns.

Hope that helps some but I realize I've asked as many, if not more, questions then I've answered.

FCS
Ballon Town, NM, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 06:57:05 (ZULU)

Out of Lurker mode.

This site is so great! It's a wonderful thing to be in touch with a bunch of straight talkin people who know what they're doing.

Terry's about got me convinced to save pennies for one of George's sticks (I hate buying twice).

George

Do you do any sort of lay-away, or will I have to (re)start a slush fund? Hit me off line: these guys don't need to hear me haggling.

Scouts Out.

Old Bill

Bill McCormick
Bristol, TN, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 13:16:17 (ZULU)

FSC, tried to send you a e-mail through the site but guess we're having problems?? Anyway isn't there an F-Class shoot in Capitan this week-end?? Are you going?? If so let me know and I'll see about being there! Fun would be my first F-Class!

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 13:55:11 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Capitan!? Capitan, N.M.? You mean that little town East of Raton?

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 14:17:00 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Yes, Sir!! Match at Capitan on Saturday, starting at 08:00 (I'll double check and get back to you). Should be a decent turn out, 3 of us, maybe 4, are scheduled to shoot the match. Capitan will give you some lessons on wind doping!! Look forward to meeting you real time.

I'll check the filtered messages until I get your off-line message screened through.

Mk4,

That be the one. Great little match there at Capitan......last one until April/May due to weather.....be great to see you there. I'll make sure I put in my backup front rest and rear bag, just in case you happen to be in the neighborhood.

FCS
Soggy, NM, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 15:56:19 (ZULU)

Hockeyref...

no package yet...maybe today.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 16:40:56 (ZULU)

Bill McC - Know what we're doing? Not me. I'm doing research.

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." -- Werner Von Braun.

I expect the learning about this art, if you will, will stop about 10 minutes after I'm dead - unless there's a 1000 yard range in Hell. Experience has taught me that when I get to where I think I know what I'm doing, I'm not paying attention, and there is more to my ignorance than I know. But learning is fun! "Dunno if this technique will work or not - better go shoot and find out." Somebody's gotta do it. :-)

But straight talk around here? Oh, yeah...

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 16:46:05 (ZULU)

Lindy

If there isn't a 1000 yard range in hell when I get there, there will be one shortly after my arrival...

Of course, the premise of bulldozing what ever is in the way to make room sounds more like heaven than hell to me... I have to drive an hour to get to a 300 yard range.

medicjim
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 17:21:18 (ZULU)

Jim: Why bulldoze when you can use explosives? And think of the fun we'll have researching the temperature sensitivity of various propellants. Why, we'll have a devil of a time.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 17:31:30 (ZULU)

That's what I like about you Lindy...

An 'adapt and overcome' attitude and you think outside the box <g>

medicjim
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 17:35:07 (ZULU)

US TV news too liberal, say Americans!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1058683,00.html

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 17:52:48 (ZULU)

>>Yes, Sir!! Match at Capitan on Saturday, starting at 08:00<<<

Well CRAP!!!!!

The only time I'm gonna be out of town and now I have an opportunity to see you bums and bust some caps and I'm gonna be gone. Let me know how it turns out. SH*T!!!!!!!!

Which way from the volcano (or town) is the range? Strange to hear about a 1K range that close to Whittington.

As an aside, I've heard that Capitan has a great little restaurant.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:04:19 (ZULU)

Texas to Ted Kennedy: You've Crossed a Line

"...Americans will always admire tobacco-chewing cowboys with scuffed up boots more than martini-swilling bureaucrats in three-piece suits."

Click on my name for the link - and be sure to scroll down to read some of the comments.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:06:19 (ZULU)

One or more of you guys are confused, and I think it's Mk 4. Capitan is north of Ruidosa. The town east of Raton with the volcano cone is Capulin. I dunno which one has a range, but I sort of doubt it's Capulin.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:11:47 (ZULU)

>>>One or more of you guys are confused, and I think it's Mk 4. Capitan is north of Ruidosa.<<<<<

Lindy,

Yeah, you're right!! Thanks for pointing that out. First brain fart of the day. I'm still gonna be in Ruidoso on Sat. morning. but probably not @ 8AM.

Hmmmmm. Let me do some thinking on this.

Sarge,

How long does it take to get to Ruidoso from Hobbs? Bigger question yet is what IS the BEST way to get to Ruidoso (or Capitan) with all the construction going on?

Also, just exactly where is the range?

This may work out yet.... but better half might not think too much of it. May have to promise the moon. Can't afford anything else ;))))

Thanks Lindy.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:45:13 (ZULU)

Lindy,

>> unless there's a 1000 yard range in Hell <<

There's gonna be some serious mirage!

jc
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:47:26 (ZULU)

David,

I have two B&L 4000/4200's (6x24's, 1-duplex,1-mildot) and really like them. The duplex sits on a .22-250 for critter work and I bought the mildot to try at 1000 yds. I wanted more magnification than my 10x 30mm scopes had. The range I shot at has some pretty bad winds from time to time and what I found was that the 1" tube of the 4200 ran out of windage and the only thing that allowed me to stay on target was by using the mildots for hold-over. I'm back with 30mm tube for 1000 yd work.

Hope this helps in your decision.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:51:55 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for the clarification. I am, ummmmmm....was, confused and Capitan is Northeast of Ruidoso about 30 miles. Guess I'd better slow down and read all of the words.

Mk4,

If I recall correctly, you would be about 250 miles from Capitan. Range is about 3 miles East of Capitan, just off of Hwy 380. I've eaten at a nice BBQ place in town and there is another resturant I need to check out.

FCS
NM, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 18:57:09 (ZULU)

Wow its been a while :)

Lots of talk about the loopy scopes but what about US Optics and Nightforce? I am back in the market for scopes and would like to try something a little different. I wish I could find a USO price list some where. I could have sworn that they had a nice tube for under $1000.

Anyone have any pet Varget loads for their 300WM?

Scott Chapman
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 21:17:28 (ZULU)

>>Ahh...were that it was so easy...My department has home verification...if I don't come in, they can and will call. Though it hasn't happened yet, they are also permitted to visit my home during my shift, to verify my presence...<<

Hell Harry,

Sounds more like house arrest without the ankle bracelet than a job <BG>

Seriously, good to have you over here.

Don

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 21:18:48 (ZULU)

Hey Don,

House Arrest...Yep, that about covers it. I guess the suits are accustomed to managing inmates. If it works for the thugs, might as well apply it to the cops, too. ;)

Thanks again for the welcome, Bro.

Respectfully,

Harry

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 21:39:52 (ZULU)

Hello,

Thought I was through asking dumb questions and had made up my mind what to buy. I'm following advice and trying to buy quality once, and cry once. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of quality out there.

FCS, oops, I didn't post the full spec on that scope. It was a Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 4-16x 50 mm.

I've decide to go w what "The Shooter" recommended much earlier w (maybe) some slight upgrades.

Remington 700 .308

Badger Ordnance Rings

Badger Ordnance Tilted Scope Base

Harris Swivel Bipod (or local equivalent)

Military style sling

The remaining question is should I get PSS or VS on the rifle stock.

The scope - sigh - the originally specified Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x M3LR seems to be good, but can I do better? Is it worth it? How much do the larger objectives actually help if you're NOT shooting low light conditions? Was this particular Leupold recommended because it was good AND inexpensive or can I/should I go for a better or larger objective still in the Leupold line if I can afford it?

I've got two gunsmith/dealers talking w me. Both have what was specified (but one still wants to sell me a Kimber, but I can't get any feedback on Kimber that isn't from someone who wants to sell me one).

I will buy next week, and only the stock and scope have any question, and there I would like to "upgrade" (maybe) from the recommendation.

Thank you for all the help. And it has been a lot. (Don't you just love computers? I've printed out almost everything you said)

David

David
Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 21:42:12 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Incoming e-mail via SC. It's clean, no attachments

Don

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 21:42:51 (ZULU)

Harry,

Just curious, if you've called in sick, can you leave your house to go to the doctors office? How about the drug store?

That happened to me once. When I came into work the next day, my supervisor told me that he'd called and that, since I hadn't answered, I must not have been home.

I told him that he was right and that I was at the Doc's office. I still remember the particularly stupid look on his face when he realized that he was a lot less clever than he had thought he was only an instant earlier.

BTW, I found the allegation particularly insulting since I can count the number of sick days I've taken over the last 15 years on the fingers of one hand.

Steve in Tampa
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 22:14:13 (ZULU)

FSC, Mk4 - yep Capitan is about 30 miles east of RUIDOSO on Hwy 380 between Hondo and Carrizozo. Hunt that area just about evey deer season but have never actually shot on the range there. If I don't have any "honey do's" I'll be there!

OK just checked with she that must be obeyed and nothing up for Saturday! I'll do my best to be there! 0800 ok I'll try to be there around 0730 I'll have to have a serious alarm clock to be up that early! The resturant you're talking about is the "Smokey Bear" yes the same Smokey Bear of Forest Service fame! GREAT food!

Mk4 still about the only way is down on Hwy 70 construction or not! IF you go through early enough the construction really isn't a problem. When you get to Hondo on the far side just take Hwy 380 and about 3 miles before you get to Capitan look on the right side of the highway for the range (it's just past the Ft. Stanton turn off) and LOOK you WILL have to NO SIGNS! Hobbs to Hondo 2-3 hours using the main highways, then to Capitan/range oh 15-20 minutes or so.

OK I should see you Saturday!

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 22:59:03 (ZULU)

David,

Go with a Tactical Interventions Sling. Only need to buy the sling once...

I use the M3LR out to 1000 yds. Works GOOD! Tough as nails, repeatable, simple.

Those that know,

CHRONOGRAPHS!

Finally killed my CED Millenium. Damned thing wouldn't work again.

So. What is a better unit. The Pact Professional, or The Oehler 35P?

(See?! Buy it ONCE and cry ONCE!)

sheesh...

Spud,

Out

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 23:09:14 (ZULU)

Dennis,

Chronograph choice: I have had my Pact Professional for a number of years and it has always served me well. I like the built in printer feature vs. no printer options of other chronographs. I also picked my up complete for $200 which fit my spending limits at the time.

If I were to purchase one today it would be the Oehler 35P. It probably is the most accurate one on the market and has a built in printer as well. As stated on their site, http://www.oehler-research.com/model35.html, "The Model 35 measures two velocities on each shot, it automatically compares the two readings, and it waves a flag if they don't agree within reasonable limits." It will take a little longer to setup and be bulker to store.

I wouldn't hessitate to recommend either one.

David,

The choice between the PSS stock or the VS stock is one of need or preference. The PSS stock, at least the one's I have, has a double palm swell in the grip area, wider and flatter fore end and the second sling stud. I happen to like the grip feel and the wider fore end when shooting off rests. You can get away with only a single bipod stud but the second one allows you to attach the sling and not have to remove or re-attach it if you remove the bipod. As for bipod these are the two I would recommend based on your preferred height requirements; Harris HBBRM-S - Extends 6" to 9" with Leg Notches (Bench Rest), "S" Series (Swivels) or HBLM-S - Extends 9" to 13" with Leg Notches, "S" Series (Swivels).

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 00:46:41 (ZULU)

REF: Safety Tip

On the coast of the Yellow Sea there is a local drink called "Clear Rain" 140 proof, burns with a blue flame at room temperature....avoid it. "Gumbay" means bottoms up.....avoid that as well.....oh my friggin' head.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Quingdao, PRC - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 00:51:32 (ZULU)

Sure, now that I'm gone and can't get to Capitan every month, you guys go and hold a match there... I'm jealous.

Seriously though, I used to camp there nearly every month. We'd get there late Friday and stay through the weekend right on the range. NOTE: There are absolutely NO facilities at the range!!!(but there is a Shell station and a dive of a restaurant called "The Smokey Bear" that has a good chilecheeseburger, and both usually have clean restrooms...) Usually as soon as firing was done, we'd break out beer & BBQ. Before Uncle Sam decided I needed a change in scenery, I seriously considered getting some land down there.

I met a lot of good friends down there, and said a final good-bye to my best friend there too. If any of ya'll there see the ghost of a yellow lab, say "HI" for me. Watchout, he likes camping and he likes having his own sleeping bag. He truly loved going there with us. I miss him greatly.

And if any of you ever find any charred golfballs there, well that was me too. I have one helluva driver, and put one into the hill behind the impact berm-- from the 900yd line!

Butner was a bit wicked last weekend. My 600 yd stuff was okay, but 1K day sucked for me. Haven't shot that bad in a LONG time. The match director did say F class would officially be broken into "tactical" and "Match" next year, and so they went ahead and awarded prizes for both at this match.

It was good catching up again. Hopefully I'll have the time to keep up here.

Caison
Soggy, DE, - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:11:57 (ZULU)

Hey Steve,

Believe it or not, I have to call and tell them I'm leaving, that I am going to the doctor's office or pharmacy( there aren't many other optional locations), and how long it will take me.

Then, I better have documentation with the date and time matching on it, or I'm still subject to disciplinary action. Four times over your career, and you are subject to dismissal.

Yeah, it's fun... ;)

Respectfully,

Harry
New Jersey, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 01:40:15 (ZULU)

Mk4, Sarge

I was mistaken, match starts 0830 with show up time of 0800. I should be there about 0745 give or take 10 minutes. There should be 4 of us from up north, 3-4 from Capitan area, and you guys; sounds like a great time!

David,

IF you are going to shoot paper/F-class then 10X is not going to be enough magnification. I'd suggest the 6.5-20X LR M1 Tactical ($90 more then the 3.5-10 at Bear Basin) as it has enough magnification at the high end to do precision holds for F-class and large enough field of view on lower end for steel/movers in tactical. May want to consider the 2nd gen reticle from Priemer. Even if you do not get the 2nd gen now the penalty is only $100, which is pretty cheap in this sport.

I'd go with the PSS stock as it has more features for tactical then the VS and is better then the VS for F-class.

FCS
Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 02:50:28 (ZULU)

Just a little update for those of you following my rifle project information gathering process...I ordered a Sniper Hide Rifle this afternoon from GA Precision. Mine is #26. Glass is going to be Leupy V-X III LRTM1 4.5x14x50 with the 2nd Gen USMC mildot reticle. Harris bi-pod and adjustable cheekpiece saddle on the stock. Sling color is desert. Rifle should be delivered around the first of the year or so. Thanks again to all who shared their knowledge. It is much appreciated!!

Chad

Chad Howell
chesapeake, virginia, usa - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 03:16:07 (ZULU)

Any comments on how the .308 does on Elk? I've got a friend telling me that the .308 will do a good job and another telling me that I need a 300 Win Mag, 30-06 or 7MM.

I wanted to get the consensus from you guys, (I know that consensus and SniperCountry is an oxymoron).

Thanks.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 03:44:48 (ZULU)

Gents,

Corbett commented on the .308 for elk.

The .308 will do the job, provided you use a good bullet, and place it well. I hunt with .308's a lot and trust the cartridge.

The .30/06 is probably the "standard" where a for elk and deer. Obviously, the .308 is not far behind it's predecesor.

Elk are tough animals. My opinion is that they require a large bullet that can plow through muscle, bone, and sinew. The magnums certainly can do the job.

Personally, I stump for the .35 Whelan Improved. I use a 250 premium bullet at about 2,550 FPS from my 23" barrel. Shoots flat enough to 300 yards and delivers plenty of energy. The .338/06 is another fine round.

Magnum energy is not needed, IMHO, but the magnums take a lot of animals every year. Look at your hunting area, ranges shot, and decide what you need. My .35 Whelan Imp. does all I ask for and more.

Accuracy? Just sighted in two weeks ago and my three round group went into 3/4".

Not to offend the .270 Winch, 280 Rem., 7MM, and .30 cal crowd, but I've never seen elk go down any harder than when hit with the .35 caliber. Even quartering shots.

If you really need a magnum consider the .338 Winchester Magnum. IF you're not recoil sensitive.

Hope this helps. Nice thing about this is it's YOUR choice.

Best of luck in your search...it's half the fun.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 04:22:14 (ZULU)

Corbett,

Cow or bull tag?

308 will work just fine on either at ranges under 250 yards; if bull tag then 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 WM, 7mm Mag starts to have an advantage but shot placement is still more critical. Bulls are damn tuff, especially during the rut.

308 Win, Rem 700 ADL (60s vintage) with 22 or 20 inch barrel gave the following performance:

RP brass (case capacity, not match accuracy)

WLR primer

44.0 gr of Varget (start around 41.5 and work up)

200gr Speer spitzer sp (#2211)

COL of 2.820 to run through the magazine

Chronographed velocity of 2529 fps, extreme spread of 21 fps

Bolt lift was butter smooth, no signs of pressure from that load, in that rifle. Would shoot about 1MOA (5rds, 200yds, right at 2 inch group) but at 250 yards on elk, what more do you need?

My dad dropped a cow elk without incident, 2 shots through the shoulder. First round killed the animal but I did tell him to shoot animal again if it did not go down right away, so he did. Wish I was a fast with a bolt gun as he is!! 308 is just fine for elk as long as you keep the range of the cartridge in mind.

However, I personally would not pass up the excuse to purchase a new rifle. 300WSM or 300SAUM :-)

FCS
NM, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 04:36:07 (ZULU)

>>>>>There should be 4 of us from up north, 3-4 from Capitan area, and you guys; sounds like a great time!<<<

FCS,

What are the particulars on the Capitan match?

How much ammo.... how long does a match generally last.... and what are the different ranges you generally shoot on this event?

Sarge,

I reckon if I left Hobbs @ 5AMish, I should get there on time? Don't want to press my luck with the other half.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 05:25:16 (ZULU)

Mk4,

We shoot 800, 900, and 1000 yards. 800 yards has unlimited sighters, 15 rounds for record. 900 and 1000 is 2 sighters, 15 rounds for record. There is a follow on match after the standard Palma match, 20 rounds for record at 1000 yards with unlimited sighters. I'd say 80 rounds minimum if your going to shoot both and 55 rounds if only the Palma portion.

If you only shoot the Palma portion, I'd guess about 1130 to 1200. Usually finish up the follow on match between 1330 and 1400.

Hope to see you there! I'll make sure I bring a thermos full of coffee to perk you up after the drive!! I'll also bring my backup front rest and rear bag to help offset the caffine buzz!!

FCS
Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 07:36:13 (ZULU)

Chad, You will be very happy with your purchase. I have 10+ rifles from George and crew at GA. They all sing to me!

Dennis, I got the Oehler 35 without the printer. I really appreciate the way it is constructed and the way it performs. The directions are really well written, and there is also a quick cheat sheet for those who don't want to read the more detailed directions. They are another great company that employs Americans and cranks out a great product.

Michael
CA, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 07:38:38 (ZULU)

Well Mk4 leaving Hobbs at around 5 should do it! FSC I'll try to have some reasonable coffee if the Sun Country in Hondo is open when I come through!

OK you two look for the old grey-haired fart in the SC t-shirt and BadLands hat...that'll be me!

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 14:13:07 (ZULU)

Chad; you are a rarity indeed. Most people ask for advice and then do everything they can to circumvent it. Congratulations on your choice.

Elk hunting country, I knew a Rancher (not in the Bibical sense)who used a 99 Savage in .308 with a Bushnell 4X for about 40 years every year on Elk. His kills were impressive and required a building to house them all, along with a few other trophies. I got him started on a .300 Win mag. and he couldn't believe he hadn't already done it before. He decked a large Antelope at 800 yards the first year.

I once about 15 years ago, had a dude who brought along a .338 magnum. His first shot at 100 yards nicked the beast in the jaw. Yours truly and another Injun tracked and ran him for 2 miles on foot while the BIG dude who had worn out his horse, got another one and followed the big bull another 2 miles beyond our dragging asses, taking shots as he could get em. 13 rounds is what I heard. Nothing connected. We finally gave him a 30-06 Remington semi auto and propped him up against a fence post with instructions to squeeze slow. He was a really fine fellow but weighed about 350 and had worn himself and the 2nd horse out completely. Needless to say the injun and the half White Scotchman were damned tired too. The 30-06 went through a huge shoulder and took him down in one shot. The bull was in the top 20 for all time they tell me. No moral here just a Elk Story. I couldn't reach around the base of that ole boy's horns with both hands end to end.

Brogers
Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 14:29:01 (ZULU)

Can somebody give me the lowdown on Berger VLD? I was thinking about trying some of their 175's for 308 and some of their 220's in 300 win mag. Only thing I've shot out of the 300 win is Black Hills 190 match and it seems to do fine. Just curious about the Berger VLD's compared to the Sierra MatchKings. If you use Berger, what are some good loads to try? Thanks!

Chad

Chad Howell
chesapeake, virginia, usa - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 16:54:49 (ZULU)

Byron and Michael,

Thanks for the answers.

35P added to the list. (Which, no matter how many goodies I buy, NEVER gets shorter.)

DC8Plumber still out there?

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 17:16:39 (ZULU)

Dennis,

I have an Oehler 35P I picked up at an auction. The chrono is ~1990 vintage. Several weeks ago, I sent it back to Oehler, it was giving goofy printouts, etc.. It's had several hundred (if not thousands) of rounds through it. I was expecting a hefty bill.

I got the 35P back in about a week. Printer was bad. They replaced the printer, the outer case, calibrated it, and gave me some second-hand skyscreens (looked new to me, ~$35 in value) to replace the ratty ones I was using.

NO CHARGE!!

It doesn't get any better than that. You'll have the 35P for life.

It's pricey, but remember: buy cheap, buy twice.

Duman
Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 17:35:04 (ZULU)

Well my knee looks about like an American football, seems i'd ripped the cartlidge(sp) that sticks on the end of the bone to shit, so they've smoothed it of and got all the crapout and the doc was on about some growth hormone injections that they can stick in the knee to make the dammage part grow back(thats it i understood the medical kraut terms right), failing that he was on about a graft, looks like it will be a pain in the ass,maybe should have got it seen too sooner and not gone wandering up n down the Jock hillsides chasing deer..

Corbett, if your hunting elk with a 308, get some heavey (180gr and up) controlled expansion bullets, Nostler Partition, Lapua Mega,Remmy Core Lokt Ultra, Barnes X, Speer Trophy bonded bear claw or something like that, winchester fails safe's are maybe a little to hard. and make sure yu get close enough and think about bullet placement bieng the be all and end all of the whole thing, use the same bullets in a 30-06 and you can do the job, but just a little farther away, same again for the 7mm rem mag, i'd class it with the 06, and the 300 mags well, again, just a little bit more range can be added, and bag one for me ok.

Tchiemer, the police ain't bound by the Geneva Convention, (or was it some other agreement)and can use expanding ammo, the cops in Northern Ireland use factory 150 grain Lapua Mega.

David, we are all to poor to buy twice and what ever you get, don't get it rusty.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 17:50:55 (ZULU)

Corbett, Hunting large game at distance requires energy down range.Some calibers lack that energy.When i moved to Alaska i had to choose a caliber with enough punch to be able to stop a charging grizzly and not be an overkill for moose.I chose a 338.win mag and settled on a 250gr Nosler-partition bullet for all purpose.Recoil is realy not that bad compared to a hot 300wm.what i realy like about the338.wm is the weight selection of bullets 200 - 300gr . If you look at balistic tables and compare the drop with range and the energy with range, that narrows it down quit a bit.

It has been a while and please correct me if i am wrong but i think you need a minimum of 1200psi AT RANGE for a good kill(good shot placement aside)

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 18:29:29 (ZULU)

Thanks, Duman

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalifornicateya, usa - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 19:28:32 (ZULU)

I've never seen an elk shot with a .308, but I've seen a few shot with 180 Noslers at 2700 that the new powders allow a .308 to (almost?) do. If that's all I had, that's what I'd use.

Everybody tells me that placement is everything. Maybe so, but the elk don't always cooperate. For a guy who puts some work in, the .338 with Nosler 250s is hard to argue with. You can take the shots you get, and it really puts them down. Meat damage is minimal. I've taken shots with it that I would have had to pass up with a .30-06 class cartridge. That's not what you read in "Peterson's Hunting", but it's what I see with my own eyes.

CDC'
Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 20:24:10 (ZULU)

Pete;

Be easy on the knee.

Handi-Rifle report;

Not sniper related, but what the hell. As some of you may know, I asked about the H&R Handi-Rifles. Well, I got one in .308 this week and done some shooting today at 100 yards.

The rifle performed fairly well. Under 2moa was average with the loads I tried. I think I can get it to do better with more load development and a better scope. The best load was under 1.5moa and looked promising. I was using 165gr Sierra GameKing BTSP with Varget powder. Loads were 42-min,43,44,45,46-max the best being 45 and 46.

The rifle has good balance. The trigger is not terribly bad, better than some hunting rifles. Ejection was very good. Bluing is fine on the frame but the barrel has a rough surface so the bluing doesn't look as good. Wood is fair but smooth. Muzzel is recessed but looks like it may need crowning. The fore end touches the barrel, I think that can be worked on.

I got a Simmons Pro-Hunter 3-9X40 scope for it. What a lousy piece of junk! The eye relief shortens dramatically when the magnification is increased. Unacceptable on a rifle with recoil. The crosshairs would never become clear at any setting. It has finger knobs (not target knobs) on the elevation and windage which made adjustment easy. Unfortunately, the index marks were almost not existant. The rifle will probably shoot better with a real scope considering the sight picture stayed blurry. It looked fine at fifty yards and will either be put on a .22 or gotten rid of.

The rifle I believe will be a keeper. The scope I'm ashamed of buying. I guess maybe my Leupold has spoiled me.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 20:27:03 (ZULU)

Jody,

Sometimes you can tweak the accuracy a little by slipping a rubber o-ring on the fore-end stud. Might have to try different thicknesses. Had one in .223 a while back and got it down to about 3/4" that way, a couple of times I even came close to a half an inch, not bad for a $200 gun.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 23:35:10 (ZULU)

IMR Powder Co. has reached an agreement to sell IMR Powder to Hodgdon Powder Co.

Click on my name for link.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Milwaukee, WI, USA - Thursday, October 9, 2003, at 23:59:07 (ZULU)

Any of you fellas use a B & L Discoverer spotting scope?

TIP: An 81mm mortar round cannister (heavy ribbed plastic) makes an ideal carrier. Slide your scope into an old, heavy hunting sock and then into the round cannister.

Has a screw on top and O ring gasket.

Like it was made for it.

Safe and sound.

brian k. sain
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 00:11:34 (ZULU)

Chad,

I run JLK 175 VLD bullet(peas in a pod, JLK & Berger VLD) in a Win70 Stealth. VLD bullets don't really like to jump so if you are not able to limit bullet jump to under 0.020, keep shooting the Sierra 175s. My rifle likes the 175 VLD seated to be 0.020 into the rifling.

RL-15 (44.5gr) has been working wonderfully in my rifle but 4064, Varget, N-140, N-540, N-150, or N-550 would be viable options.

Lapua brass, CCI BR2, 44.5gr RL-15, and the 175 JLK runs 2760 fps out of the 26 inch tube on the Stealth.

Feel free to contact me off-line.

Sarge and Mk4,

I'll make sure to have a full thermos of my special 10 bean coffee and a couple mugs....okay, maybe styrofoam to wake you two up before the match.

FCS
NM, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 01:48:23 (ZULU)

Gents- My department is sending me to the NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor school (40 hrs) in a couple weeks. Anybody been to it? Just wondering what to expect.

Elk and .308's Pete L has some real good comments on that topic. Real good ammo picks too. I however have grown kind of partial to the Winchester Failsafes. The biggie will be placement, placement, placement. Those critters are pretty tough.

21lbs rifle...must be a nuclear powered weapon wrapped in lead sheilding for radiation protection =)

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 02:00:47 (ZULU)

To echo Joe S.'s comments on Win. Failsafes......

I have only one experience to relate.

Some years ago, I shot a huge whitetail buck in NY State, using the Failsafe through an M1A.

Kind of a snap shot, held ahead of the shoulder on the neck where I figured the spine would be. Didn't have a good heart/lung shot, quartering shot from the front. Shot placement was enabled by a lot of study of deer anatomy....there's lots of hunting books out there that depict vital zones, and I'd butchered a few myself. Spine in the neck is lower than most folks think.

Buck went down like he'd been struck by lightning. Never twitched. I hope I can go that quick when my time comes.

Failsafe round shattered the spine and left a small exit wound, only damaged a small amount of neck meat. I would recommend this round unreservedly, just on the basis of this one instance. This round in .308 should be just fine on elk, given decent placement.

Next year shot a big doe directly in the heart with a Fed. GM 168 gr. BTHP. She made it about 50 yds. before piling up.

Both these rounds work, but you gotta put 'em where they're supposed to go.

But that Failsafe is one penetrating round! I seriously doubt the Fed. GM would exhibit that sort of terminal performance, nor do I think that a lot of soft-nose or hollow point hunting ammo would. Study your game anatomy and try to visualize bullet path from different angles, and you'll be way ahead.

Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it, though!

Y'all Stay Safe!

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 03:38:21 (ZULU)

Gents,

Note the comments about the .338 Winchester for Elk. No flies on it, except it is a bit stout on recoil. IF I shot magnums it would be my choice.

Thought my choice of the .35 Whelan Ackley Imp. would draw comment.

It comes very close to the .338 Mag in performance. About 200 FPS behind with like bullet weights.

Though a bit overgunned the .375 H & H is used by a number of hunters, I know, and they report superb results.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 03:49:10 (ZULU)

Elk country again; For the most part in my limited experience I find that the really big bulls in the Rocky Mountain regions tend to make for the dark timber during hunting hours and I do mean dark. The placement is important but in order to shoot a bull elk whose booking it and they usually are in the dark stuff. You either take the rear end shot or pass up the trophy of a lifetime if your gun ain't big enough. I packed a .375 H&H quite a bit with low powered optics. I always had the feeling I should be using irons but in the dark stuff you couldn't tell what you were shooting without some magnification. 300 bullets were the poison I chose. You can take my "Sports Afield" credentials if you want but what was said earlier by CDC is much meaningful to me. I've seen a lot of Elk taken by women and kids with a .243. But it's usually in "Parks", (flat meadows) rather than the dark stuff and usually spikes or Cows. The big boys just take more stuff and .444 Marlins and 45-70s won't penetrate to kill zones from the rear on a running animal usually resulting in wounded game and long unsuccessful tracking. I have been known to use a .270 winchester too, so I'm not always sure myself and I'm more of an Elk hunter than a Elk Slayer. I have passed up many more Elk than I've shot at. Horns tempt me too much, and I usually come home empty handed waiting for the big one. Those were the days.

Brogers
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 03:50:05 (ZULU)

Rob;

I'll put the o-ring tip in my notebook. Thanks.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 04:02:16 (ZULU)

Elk country.....

Ok. Its my turn.

Killed a nice (but not trophy) 6X5 with a Pre-64 Model 70, 300 H&H way back when. The load was 75 gr. of H4831 and a Hornady 180 gr. Core-Lokt (I do NOT recommend this load in ANY OTHER rifle). Me and the guide jumped him @ high (way up there) altitude. Elk was already crashing through heavy cover and my guide managed to turn him with a cow call and the elk hesitated, turned and gave my a classic broadside shot. Bullet went deep into the lungs above the heart cavity. He went about 40-50 yards and piled up in a heap. There was no exit wound.

We hunted the north end of Jackson Hole in the Teton National Forest. It was one of the best times I ever had. I can vividly remember the orange glow of the sun on those beautiful Tetons at sunrise and how they looked like towering monsters at sunset. I also remember a storm front that came through and when it lifted the Tetons were totally covered in light snow.

Oh yeah, my guide was a Nam vet that served in the 101st Airborne. He was slump shouldered, weighed about 160# wet and I wouldn't have tangled with him on his worse day. He told me he was always getting busted in Nam for keeping sporting ammo in his locker and invariably, he'd get spot-checked. It didn't make any difference to him.... after all the Arty boys could use (HE) ;))))

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 05:22:42 (ZULU)

Sarge, Call me at the shop when you get a chance

George Gardner
KC, MO, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 08:16:40 (ZULU)

Did you happen to take notice that IMR is no more? Looks like they sold out to Hogdon.. ITs on the IMR website http://imrpowder.com

LeMay
MI, - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 13:32:50 (ZULU)

For anyone interested, Oak Ridge Sportsman Assc. is holding the annual Regional NRA Long Range Championship the weeeknd of Oct 17-19th. The 17th will be a zero/practice day, with Saturday being three matches, any/iron/iron, and Sunday being any/any. There is a BBQ/Grill out Saturday after the matches, and Sunday is Pizza and Beer at Big Ed's. $50 for the match weekend includes the after dinners, and $10 for the practice match Friday. If anyone what's to go, hit my email and I'll send you the sponsors information.

World class range, run by professionals. To give you some idea of the shooters, the April state match included the winner of this years Wimbledon cup and Farr Cup.

BTW,, the range is less than 1 hour from Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge. Lots of local hotels and resturants. Fun for the whole family.

Chris...

Chris
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 13:47:49 (ZULU)

Jody,

I, as well, had a .223 H&R. Barrel lasted 6000+ rds. It was 1 in 12 twist and would shoot anything up to Nos 60 Partitions.(They were marginial in accuracy but the yotes don't bitch much.) I found that by making a casting of the chamber and customizing the bullet seat depth and powder selection it would shoot consistently 1/2 moa or better out to 300 yds. I've got plenty of Cerro-Safe left, if you want to make a casting I'll ship it to ya. Easy to use.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 14:24:28 (ZULU)

Just been to the Doc's and he toldme not to plan any alpine hunting trips after Chamois within the next 6 months(he is a hunter too) so Jon B our chammy trip will have to be next autumn.

Elk, my turn again.. many things to consider, and fírst and for most , i am lead to believe that a chance to hunt a bull elk is not and every day occurance, so we need to be able to put that big old bugger down with authority from any angle and at any oppertunity he presents, if that means angling the bullet through the hind quarters into the vitals then so be it, so we need penetration, however if penetration was all we wanted we'd go for a solid, unfortunately penetration without expansion tends to leave a minimal wound channel and wounded game disapearing, ive shot pigs with bullets that where too hard and had to trail them for a good 900m, and that was with perfect shot placement, a friend shot a boar with a 308 failsafe at a distance of 40m, the shot was just that bit to far back and zapped through the lungs doing little dammage, the fat on the pig did a super job of pluging the entry and exit and that sucker took us on a good 5 km wild hog chase, we caught him eventualy when the two dogs bayed him in a thicket, then it was up to muggins here to crawl in after him, cos the good mate said, " well i ain't F$§%&/ going in there after him!" so he got finnished with a mag full of 9mm FMJ. Now where i hunt here in Germany i can hunt every day, all day when ever i want, so i can chose perfect shot placement every time, i have to pass up more shots than i take due to problems with near by residential areas not to mention one of the worlds biggest airports, now thats all i need, bring down a 747 with me 450 marlin.. and the lack of a back stop is a real pain in the butt, but a one off elk hunt, now i wouldn't want to pass up many opertunities in that scenario, although i do have reservations about shooting game from behind, its just not gentleman like. We could go the magnum route and buy some big boomer, sure a 300, a 338 or whatever magnum you choose will do the job, but an unbelievable number of hunters ain't capable of accurately shooting anything but standard cartridges, a particular hunter omes to mind, guy bought a Sauer 202, think it was 416 rigby, might have been something else, but the sucker kicked like a mule, i had mounted the scope and zeroed the rifle for the shoüp and it was a real performer, poping 3 of those large boolits into a nice clover leaf at 100m, couple of weeks later the guy is back complaining that he has missed 2 pigs and a deer and what kind of wanker had zeroed the rifle, (you mean you didn't check it yourself before hunting with it? came into my mind), andways i ended up on the range with the guy and he shot first, 3 shots, one where it should be, one a foot high, the other a foot low, hmmm, see he says, its a pile of shit, we let the thing cool, then i shot it, did 3 groups of 3 rounds, all same place all nice clover leaf groups, then i had him shoot again, he was scared of the rifle and the recoil and was flinching like a twat, andway, what i'm saying is use a rifle you know you can shoot accurately, of course don't bring your 223, and forget the 243 aswell, but if you shoot your 308, 30-06, 8x57, 7x57 well, then you are better of with it and the right ammo/bullet combination rather than going for the magnum stuff, now if you can shoot a magnum, (and remember that you won't want to carry a heavey weight " tactical" magnum to the high places where elk live (or into the dark timber for that matter) and that a 6 maybe 7 lbs hunting magnum will jolt you much more than a 14lbs sniper rig, and if you already have one or are looking for an excuse to buy one, then hey why not, but make sure you get to know it first, how many time's do you see guys turn up for a hunt with the latest hot rod magnum, its straight out the box, they did 3 shots on the 100m range to verify zero(and some don't even do that), and the talk gets to ammo, guns, trajectories and its, " this magnum is like a lazer, dead on out to 500m" yeah right !! now i'm not against magnums and chances are if i lived where the Elk do i'd probably own a 338 win mag, but living here and maybe getting the chance to go after Elk, then i'd probably go for my 06 ( in a no rusty condition) with some good heavey bullets, if i was hunting the timber then i'd be going with the 450Marlin, but i would take consideration as to whether that 350 grain hornady interlock would actualy travel from an Elks arse through its vitals and out the other side. I discused bullets yesterday, and i only passed comment on bullets ive used on bigger deer or pigs, never having ever shot and Elk(seen one though)fail safes have proved, in my experience to be a little to hard, ie, they don't open up quick enough, for all european deer or pigs,with these you could class all north american deer, cow and calf elk, and calf moose, now the Bull Elk, a mature Moose, and any of the bigger bears is probably a different kettle of fish,If anyone has experience with the failsafe on those then ok, it is a fine penetrator, me i'd reserve it for Africa and i'd go with the Partition. Now after all my jebberish none of us are any the wiser, so what I'd say is remember to old addage, Use Enough Gun, to that i'd add, use enough of the right bullet, put it in the right place, and what ever you do, no matter what game you hunt, if you want to put it down quick, break bone,on the way in or out, preferably both shoulders, and an exit wound makes tracking much easier.

gotta go, wife is moaning she wants to go to the gunshop !!best make hay whilst sun shines.. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 15:20:34 (ZULU)

IMR UPDATE:

I found this on the Accurate Reloading site under Cast Bullets. It is a response from Hodgdon on the acquisition of IMR.

"We have no plans to consolidate the lines from either company. We feel that they both have unique (excuse the wording) features and advantages. We will continue to supply the products unchanged and from current plants. We look forward to doing more aggressive marketing and updating some of the IMR data etc. We hope that you will continue to use our products and appreciate the business that you have given us in the past."

I would say that this is good news to shooters!

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 15:43:15 (ZULU)

Deer Ammo for .308 question:

I still consider myself a newbie. I've only had my VS 700 for about 6 months. All I've shot through it is Black Hills and Federal Match Grade 168 gr.

Yesterday I decided to go test some hunting ammo. I tried the Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip in 168 (velocity 2670). I was interchanging it with match grade ammo and my match grade ammo was grouping at just under an inch on the bullseye while the Winchester was about 2 inches off to the right and grouping at about 3 inches, (yikes).

Should I expect that from all deer ammo, or does someone have a recommendation on deer ammo that performs similar to the match grade stuff? Am I going to have to re-zero my rifle for deer ammo?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 15:56:00 (ZULU)

Corbett, I raised a similar question a few weeks ago.

I join in Corbett's request.

If any one has tested hunting ammunition as far as zero -- compared to federal gold match 168 gr bthp -- what is closest?

I am at 1/2 MOA with my federal gold match 168 gr bthp when doing as I ought to and am zeroed for that. I too would like to have a hunting ammunition so that I do not have to rezero.

Has anyone got any verifiable comparisons we can try without buying a lot of different brands and reinventing the wheel so to speak? I realize the results might not be identical rifle to rifle but.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 16:13:13 (ZULU)

BRogers, I don't know what those other guys were using, but my 45/70 with 440gn 75% meplat ogival flatpoints cast from wheelweights and water quenched to about 20Brinnel will out penetrate just about ANYTHING I have ever shot. I was shooting them through two 12x12 heavy creosoted railroad ties(24" of heavy wood) and they were still zinging off down range with gusto. I'd happily use these on any elk ever born. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 16:14:08 (ZULU)

Robert and Corbett,

Have you guys thought about the wonderful world of homeloading? The reason I suggest it is because you can tailor your loads to suit the rifle. Choosing 2 similar style and weight bullets (1 hunting and 1 match) you can tinker with them and get them shooting the same zero (or near enough). I shoot 185gr Lapua Scenars for match and 180gr Nosler BTs for deer in 300WM. I load both with the same powder, same charge, same primer, same brass. I get the same velocity AND the same 100yd zero.

On the elk calibre, has anyone had any experience with 6.5mm calibres? I know the 6.5x55 is used a lot in Scandanavia for elk (moose to you Yanks). Those long bullets penetrate like you wouldn't believe. The 55 is also a very pleasant calibre to shoot.

Right Pete, that gives me a year to get into shape. Better start now then, because if we do go I will be taking a 15lb rig (I can feel my lungs and legs burning at the thought :-( ). Saying that, it will be a bit lighter by then when I get the 24" fluted JR 5R on it :-).

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 17:14:47 (ZULU)

Does anyone have a recommendation on a 25X or so spotting scope with an angled eye piece that will ONLY be used for reading wind at the range. I don't need a stand and my budget is $250. Resistance to water isn't that important. Clear glass is.

Peter Lincoln: "...a bull elk is not and every day occurance, so we need to be able to put that big old bugger down with authority from any angle and at any oppertunity he presents, if that means angling the bullet through the hind quarters into the vitals then so be it, so we need penetration,..."

Absolutely. You take the shot you get and you don't want him carrying the shot off then getting tagged by somebody else. .338 WM and 250 gr Noslers does the job in the situations you describe. Given a solid body hit, they go right down. This isn't armchair speculation.

If you set a sporter up right, the kick isn't a big deal. A Sorbothane cheek piece and recoil pad distribute the recoil over a longer time interval thus reducing its severity. The cheek piece lets your head and rifle recoil as a unit, which is much more comfortable than letting a low wood comb get a running start before it whacks you on that touchy little pad of nerves under the cheek bone.

Ken M: "...but my 45/70 with 440gn 75% meplat ogival flatpoints cast from wheelweights and water quenched to about 20Brinnel...I'd happily use these on any elk ever born."

Me too.

CDC'
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 17:31:59 (ZULU)

Deer hunting loads:

Well if your not handloading find whatever brand uses the Nosler 165gr. Ballistic tip. It SHOULD be less than 1/2 MOA from your 168 SMK's...well at least mine was but I was handloading.

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 17:53:36 (ZULU)

Got a buddy that just used Black Hills Gold 308 (165 Gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip ammunition with a factory listed Velocity of 2650 FPS and Energy of 2573 Ft. Lbs) to hunt and take a very nice Antelope in Wyoming a week ago. We found the BHGNBT to track almost exactly like Federals GMM 168 gr. on his M3 scope. I thought guy's not hand loading may be interested in this info. It seems just as accurate as FGMM when shooting groups as well.

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 18:49:39 (ZULU)

HOGs and Catman,

I was looking through the new USO catalog and found on page 93 that they/USO have applied for a patent for a Mildot GenII reticle. They are offering it for sale. I wonder how Dick Thomas feels about that? Seems Premiere has been making that a couple of years or so and I know he is in the final stages of getting a patent for the design and I believe he already copywrote the name.

--------------------

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
CA, - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 19:13:32 (ZULU)

I agree on the 165 Nosler BT's. I use Win(black hills) brass and 45gr Varget for 2700fps out of a factory Stealth tube. Prints .6" at 100y. My own load, but BH can't be much different.

The zero at 100 is dead on with my 175SMK/45gr Varget load, but we don't have many places to shoot beyond even 30 yards in the woods, so I haven't taken it out further than 100 to get dope.

Be warned, as compared to SMK's, these BT's will copper foul horribly.

There are those that use SMK's for game with great success as well. For Whitetail sized game, I don't see that this is any kind of issue, but it seems the most effective whitetail killing projectile is the front bumper of a 97' Ford truck.

For those that have requested info on the ORSA match next weekend, I'll be sending out mails tonight when I get home. And for those wondering, yes, F class is allowed.

FatBoy...

Chris
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 19:14:25 (ZULU)

Quick info request gents, how's the best way of getting plastic taste out of your hydration pack?

This thing tastes like hot plastic, and I'm not too keen on it. I've washed it out with just water several times, hot and cold.

After thinking back to what I've done with some other canteens, I'm a little hesitant to put anything but water in this.

TIA

Jaeger
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 20:20:28 (ZULU)

Hello,

Still firmly comitted to buying next week. Would like to finalize a couple decisions:

What is the minimum acceptable eye relief on the scope for a Remington 700 using standard ammunition?

The standard twist on the Remington 700 is advertised as 12. However, I saw one on e bay that specified 9. 'course it could have been a typo. Any advantage/disadvantage to getting something other than the standard 12?

Thanks guys. You've been an incredible help.

David

David
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 20:29:23 (ZULU)

For you guys wanting more info on hunting rounds check this site out:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/

Or click on my name. Search the archives especially in the Bullets, Barrels and Ballistics section. There is some good info in there if your willing to search for it.

I've never hunted elk, would love to, but have taken some pretty big hogs with my 300 Rum using 180gr Siroccos. Shot a 300 pounder at just under 500 yards. Dropped him in his tracks and the exit wound was a beauty to behold. The best part was having 4 friends standing there saying I'd never hit him. I know... with friends like that... Had a pretty good ego working for about 20 minutes until I emptied my Glock mag at rabbit that started about 20 yards in front of me and then decided to charge me. I ended up trapping him with my foot. Needless to say that's the only part of the hunt my friends remember and remember and remember etc... Oh the humility.

JWL

John Levens
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 20:47:29 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

Half a teaspoon of baking soda pretty much kills the plastic taste for the liquid in the bladder at the time. You find a long term cure let me know, I have my suspicions of the bite valve.

WR Moore
Friday, October 10, 2003, at 22:15:34 (ZULU)

Undude you still having problems with USO? I just learned to stay out of the politics. I have 4 USO scopes and never had a problem, but I'm just a customer. I sent them a email a couple months back because I had an old set of their rings and I needed to replace rings on a 30/378 rifle that I have, so I told them I was missing a bracket piece and asked if they would send me that piece. They told send in the old rings and they would replace them with the newer upgraded rings free of charge. No problems.

Also on a 260 AICS folder project I'm working on I'm putting a Priemere gen II 4x14. That's an excellent scope too. I'm probably going for the gen II spotter soon too. I guess I just like to try everyones equipment. You know how us gun sluts are.

On a side note. Any progress on the match you might be running next year. I'm already committed to the SFA convention in Vegas this June so the end of that month is out for me. Might try to make the Badlands match if the dates don't conflict. Let us know as soon as you can. You always have to make plans.

Thanks..

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 23:39:42 (ZULU)

Ace;

You have inbound mail.

Jeager;

A little bit of salt worked on my tote along squeeze jug. I used a teaspoon per quart and let set for a few hours. Be sure to rinse thoroughly. It worked on canteen style plastic. Your results may vary.

What kind of water are you using? Treated water, bottled water, or well water? All will have different causes and cures.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, October 10, 2003, at 23:56:24 (ZULU)

Tony, me having problems with USO? No I answered their BS and I am waiting for a response to my lawsuit. I just pointed out while working on my suit I found info that seemed wrong. I called Dick Thomas and his lawyer is taking care of it.

As to the match. I gave this alot of thought and decided not to go through with it. Health wise I am screwed up and dont want to push it.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 00:16:13 (ZULU)

David,

the Rem 1-9, is on the PSS .223.......I am certain this is what you saw.

The .308's are ALL 1-12, except for the 5r, which is 1-11.25....

300Wm are 1-10.

On the Hogdons purchase or IMR.....

Personally, I don't believe they will leave well enogh alone, so, I will proceed to purchase several 8# cans of my favorite IMR powders tommorrow.

Two Shoes

Terry
Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 01:34:10 (ZULU)

Dos Zapatos:

The 5R bbl. is what I have at the stock tank........works good.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 02:39:12 (ZULU)

MEDICJIM.... did the mailman deliver that care package yet? I'm starting to worry and I didn't ask them for a delivery confirmation..... if you don't get it soon I'll send you another one.

steve~Hockeyref
Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 04:54:55 (ZULU)

Robert and Corbett- It's been quite awhile since I've used it but I kind of remember shooting the Federal 165gr SP (Federal Premium/blue and gold box) and having it real close to the 168GM for zero with my first PSS. You might try it just to see.

OK Hogs- Well I did it. I went to my gun dealer to get a few little cleaning items and walked out with a receipt for:

Rem LTR .223

MK IV Base and 30 mm ringes

Upgraded the stock to a better H&S

Turner synthetic sling

Uncle Mikes "Mil Spec" sling swivels

Bubble level

The M1LR on my AR10T will go on it while I strip apart the T in anticipation of a rebuild next spring. Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to ...be a gun whore !! Mac and cheese for me and family a while I guess. Any way I can keep this $20.00 trip that turned in to $1000+ trip secret from the better half? And to top it all off...I forgot to get the cleaning supplies.

Take care all, I have to go be afraid now =)

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 05:21:21 (ZULU)

Joe S...Nah now you have another excuse to go back to the gun store!

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 05:50:05 (ZULU)

Joe S.- Due to your recent purchase(s), it looks like our "road trip" to Corona is timed perfectly.......she may let you live to tell about it....

he he he.....

cmoore.....

out...

cmoore
Dago, Cali, USA - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 09:42:25 (ZULU)

Well Hawgs, it appears that the Butner F-Class matches will officially be broken up into tactical and all others. Master Cockerham is on the committee. Tactical class will be 223 and 308 only with shooting from a bipod (possibly from roll or pack as yet undecided) and a rear rest. I vote for only bipods and no rear rest personally. Anywho, they started awarding this class at the last match and will continue making it official next year.

The best part of this is I don't need no stinking fag mag now! However, a rebarreling of and sprucing up of one of my 308's may be in order. What is the ideal length and twist for Black Hills 175's?

He also advised that the 600 yard target size will be reduced to I think a 200 or 300 yard target (too early in the morning to remember). I don't know if this will help or not but all these folks cleaning the targets will now have to bear down a little harder.

Bolt
The horror, the horror........, NC, - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 11:42:05 (ZULU)

Corbett, the only way to find the right hunting load to match near enough your match load is either to hand load them or try enough different factory loads untill you come up trumps. I seldome use match ammo, Ive had excellent results with Hornady Light Magnum ammo in my 30-06, it would (pre rusty barrel) if i did my part, group into 1.5" at 525m,if i were you id grab some hornady hunting ammo and give it a try. if you can't find anything to match your match ammo, just make up another set of ballistic tables for the hunting stuff, prove them and bob's your uncle. but there is hunting ammo out there that should get you well under 1" at 100m, i always wished that ammo companies would make 10 rd sampler packs.

CDC, the recoil when actualy hunting isn't an issue, i never notice my 450 marlin when i shoot it at game, but it is an absolute bugger from the bench after about 5 rounds, it wouldn't be so bad from a bolt gun with a decent stock, but a straight pistol grip on that little 1895m is a bitch, some guys do get shit scared of thier rifles though, sounds like you have an elk or two under your belt. Ive been lookingat some 9.3x62 rounds and a mauser which has been built for a friend this morning in the shop (whilst partaking in the end of week, thank god its the weekend weizen beer sampling session), had some Norma ammo with 275 gr nostler bullets in my hand, now surely they would do the trick given a certain distance limit, i started to get all indecisive between the 450m and the 9.3 for my parker hale project, the 9.3 could be called the 9.3/06 cos thats about what it looks like, i turned on the TV this morning and there was a programme on about wild America, Elk where the main topic, damn if i don't want to hunt Elk real bad, so hows about me n Jon B swapping a weeks Roe Buck hunting for a weeks Elk hunting, what you rekon Jon? get a couple of hunting trips in with some roster hawgs?

And Jon, i still can't see where you need to loose any weight exept in that damn big heavey rifle... I sold the CF2 and my 2.5-10x56 last night, you guys ever seen that egun web site, like ebay but for guns n stuff.

Marc P, ive the mauser thing here ,and yep it says La Coruna 1957 on it, whats that mexican?

Pete.

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 13:01:17 (ZULU)

Bruce,

Yep, I have two, so far so good........if I do my part they sing.

And cleaning is a snap.......(((:

Bolt,

As far as twist goes, 1-12 works great for everything from 110/190's, some go heavier, why I do not know.

1-11.25, is the M-24 set up.......but, it's definitely not needed.....

Sounds like the match co-ordinators have gotten their act together.......glad to see that.

Two Shoes

Terry
Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 15:56:17 (ZULU)

HOGs interesting reading on Snipers Hide Forrums, under Intel Section, thread called "US OPtics Catalog"

Undude

MikeMIller
CA, - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 17:56:48 (ZULU)

SMK's, HPBT's etc. for hunting? Would NOT recomend it.

While hunting for moose 100 miles ne of Fairbanks with my brother a few years back, we managed to track a 74.5inch racked bull to within 220yards. My brother had his .300wm and i was packing my 9.5lb .338wm. Since i had allready taken my moose for the season it was his turn. Perfect broadside shot , moose flinched like he was stung by a bee and put his head down and continued to eat. He went down shortly after.When we approched

we noticed a LOT of blood and no exit wound . I asked my brother what load he was using and he replied "Noslers of course".We took turns field dressing while the other stood watch with the .338.When we looked at the cartrige box lid with the load data we found out that he had shot him with a 168 SMK loaded super hot with 75.5 gr of IMR4350.There was an enormous amount of damage to the heart lung area and we were unable to find a bullet fragment larger than a pinhead until months later when my brother bit into the bullet base while eating a tenderloin. Clearly that was a BIG mistake which neither one of us will make again. What i have found is that Nosler's stay together and expand allmost perfectly every time .The expantion stops at the partition . I guess you could carry two rounds while hunting elk. One Nosler and one Barnes monolith for the penetrate from head to toe shot.

Since i only hunt for meat i dont want to waste my time with under powered cartriges and waiting for the perfect shot.

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 18:11:30 (ZULU)

Dear hunting loads,

Several years back when Winchester first came out with Fail Safes, I sold two boxes of them in .30-06 to one of my neighbor/friends. Neither one of us bothered to read the box which was labeled CXP3. This guy is a pretty fair shot so after "missing" several whitetails he came back and wanted me to shoot his rifle off my bench. Rifle checked out O.K. so he heads out for some more hunting. We finally figured out that he was hitting the deer and punching thirty caliber holes right through them; but the bullets weren't expanding. The box plainly states that CXP3's are for large heavy game. When he switched to CXP2's he got his deer with no problem. According to Winchester's catalog, the only .308 suitable for elk would be the 180 gr. Super-X. I definitely agree that the most important thing is SHOT PLACEMENT.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 19:26:18 (ZULU)

"By David H. Hackworth

“For heroic achievement ... Lance Corporal (Billy W.) Peixotto exhibited exceptional bravery after intense small-arms fire from an enemy ambush resulted in his tank catching fire. He immediately dismounted his tank while still under enemy fire, activated the fire extinguishers, and assisted in the removal of leaking fuel bladders. While actively saving his tank from flames, he saw that his company commander had been struck by enemy fire. Showing little regard for his own safety, he retrieved his fallen company commander. Pulling his wounded commander to safety, he quickly rendered lifesaving medical assistance and provided security with his M9 9mm pistol until his company commander had been safely evacuated .… ”

The above boilerplate is from a proposed citation for a Bronze Star for Valor currently being processed by the Marine Corps. What really happened is that after Billy Peixotto’s tank was ambushed by Iraqi Special Republican Guard and Jihad mercenaries, he had the guts to climb out of the burning vehicle – while heavy automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenade fire was thumping against its armored hull – in order to activate the tank’s exterior fire extinguishers and put out the blaze that was endangering both tank and crew.

Then he, other crewmembers and company commander Capt. Jeffrey Houston freed the tank's leaking exterior fuel bladder, removing the source of potential future fires – while almost every bad guy in town was taking potshots at them.

Once the fuel bladder was tossed, Peixotto zigzagged like a broken-field runner – again while dodging enemy fire – back to his tank, where he attempted to restart that 70-ton awesome monster of destruction. The shot-up sucker failed to cooperate, so he again dismounted the tank, with slugs and rockets still smacking all around him, and when he hit the deck, he saw that Capt. Houston was down, badly wounded. Without hesitating, the young Marine immediately rushed to his CO’s side, pulled him to the shelter of the tank and provided battlefield first aid to stop the bleeding and prevent shock from loss of blood.

Throughout this nightmare, Peixotto protected Houston by engaging the enemy with scores of rounds of pistol fire. And while he held his attackers at bay, he simultaneously applied pressure to his fallen CO’s head wound – providing lifesaving medical assistance until the medics arrived.

Capt. Dave Bardorf, who led the docs to the rescue, said: “It was incredible. He was slowing the blood flow with one hand, laying fire on the enemy with the other and directing fire from a radio another Marine held for him.”

Where do we find such good men? And does a $5 scrap of metal embellished with a small red ribbon – the exact same medal awarded Jessica Lynch for being knocked out in a truck crash while attempting to flee a similar enemy ambush, and to an Air Force colonel for keeping good records – adequately express the nation’s gratitude for this hero laying his life on the line?

And here’s another highly pertinent question many Marines familiar with this particular action are asking: Is the Bronze Star really an appropriate award for such an extraordinary act of gallantry?

I went to my handy-dandy reference book that lists Medal of Honor recipients from our Civil War to the Vietnam War. There's no question that Peixotto’s heroic actions would have rated him right up there with the best of the Blue Max crowd from any of these wars.

Based on my investigation (and had I been his commander), Peixotto would definitely have gone in for the Medal of Honor or at least the Navy Cross – the Marine equivalent to the Army’s Distinguished Service Cross.

As I said in last week's column (“Medalgate,” DefenseWatch, Sept. 29, 2003), the awards system desperately needs vetting and overhauling. Meanwhile, great warriors such as Peixotto – and there have been a good number of such unsung grunt heroes in Iraq – seem to be getting shortchanged, even by the U.S. Marine Corps, the only service that hasn’t lost the warrior ethic and still takes care of its Marines in the style of Ray Davis and “Chesty” Puller.

But, obviously, there’s room for improvement: At the very least, the top Marine brass need to have a hard look at what their personnel weenies are doing in the awards department and give them a good shake-up."

Hack may be an asshole but I think he is right on here. USMC always prides itself in underrewarding its warriors.

By the way....SPain rules!!!!!!!!

Out

Gooch
Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 19:37:25 (ZULU)

Peter,Brodgers, I agree that belted magnums are not for everyone. One day at the range with the .338wm i was sighting in some hot 275gr round nose hornyandy loads when a gentleman approched and asked if he could take a shot . He was plinking with a sks. I said sure , no problem. He sat down at the bench with his cute ,gun shy ,girlfriend standing there and fired off a round . After we picked the girl off the ground we noticed the guy was holding his forehead. It suddenly dawned on me that he had obviously had his eye to close to the scope. I have never in my life seen that much blood come out of someone's forehead. Well, needless to say i felt like shit for allowing this to happen and never again let anyone fire that weapon except my brother.

On my last post about hunting with a .300wm 168gr SMK. The muzzle velocity was 3420fps

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 21:17:59 (ZULU)

Sarge & Mk4,

Was a pleasure to meet both of you! Hope you can make it back to Capitan in the spring for more fun.

I'm going to start saving up some vacation time and $ for a trip to Badlands tactical; spring '04 would be my best guess. Have to give up the training wheels (flags, rest, and bag) some time!!

Hope to see you guys again soon!

FCS
Breezy, NM, USA - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 00:34:49 (ZULU)

Interesting newspaper article on Canadian industry contributions to US military procurements in the last few years.

http://www.torontostar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?GXHC_gx_session_id_=ebbdbfabc47e6b38&pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1065823810910&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Click on my name for the URL

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 01:44:20 (ZULU)

Proper Shooting: Left hand under the buttstock or on the foreend?

Both Field Manual 23-10, Army, Sniper Training, and Mike Lau's book, the Police and Military Sniper, say you should take your left nonfiring hand and put it under the swivel stud on the buttstock, and you can take a sock filled with sand, to hold to raise or lower the buttstock.

Being handicapped without the privilege of serving in the service, I learn a lot about long distance shooting by reading and practice. I have always placed my nonfiring hand on the handguards and fared accurately.

How many of you place your hand under the buttstock swivel in a fist, as it says? How many of you use a sand sock?

I am shooting with a bipod prone or a bipod on top of a pack if the grass is high. Why is it advantageous, if it is, to put your hand under the buttstock as trying it both ways, I cannot tell a difference in stability or accuracy, but I have not tried a sand sock.

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 02:33:10 (ZULU)

tschiemer,

I've tried using bare left hand under buttstock, gloved hand (as described by Master Bowcher) under buttstock, sandbag and regular bench rest type bag. If I were a tactical shooter in real life, I would be using the gloved hand under buttstock simply because it is easier to adjust quickly without a lot of movement. The glove keeps the web of my dainty little hand from getting eaten up by the rear stud (specially on my 300 mag). Although I can shoot better off of a bench rest bag, it takes more time and movement for me to get it adjusted right, plus it is just something else to carry (and loose).

I think my biggest problem is that I still haven't found my natural point of aim.

Bolt out!

Bolt
The horror...the horror..., NC, - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 03:58:36 (ZULU)

FCS and Mk4,

Was also good to meet you'all finally and get some shooting in! Yeah folks Sarge finally shot his first F Class match today! All I have to say is if anybody wants a challenge come to one of the shoots in Capitan, NM next spring (today was final shoot of the year) and they'll teach you a thing or 3 about WIND!! I SWEAR I will NEVER complain about the winds at BadLands ever again!!! Did OK at 800 then the wind turned REAL nasty and the 900 and 1000 went to poopy!

OK I'll rat myself out - 421x12 but 9 of those x were at 800! Told you the wind got nasty!

Well anyway anyday shooting is better than anynight working!

Sarge

Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 05:45:04 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Yah done well! F-class is decent CROSS-TRAINING for learning how to dope wind. Glad to hear that you had "fun" and will be coming back in the spring! Winds don't always blow like they did today, sometimes their worse. Was bad enough folks that we had to cancel the "bonus" 20 round match for fear we would break the target frames as the wind was "at a pretty good clip".

Just for those who are not up on F-class/Palma. 450 points possible, so Sarge turned in a good score (421-12X) for never shooting F-class before and dealing with wind that wouldn't make up it's mind which way to blow.

I've got a question for ya'all, is there any "local" tactical matches in states around NM? Talking with Sarge and Mk4 has me pretty interested in trying a tactical match or even a practice session. Thank you in advance for any information you can send my way.

FCS
NM, USA - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 06:57:19 (ZULU)

Doc Holloway, i had the same experience with fail safes, everything ran off with a nice small hole through it, hardly any dammage and no blood for tracking, i was then using a winchester 70 in 7mm rem mag with that infernal boss contraption on it, deer and hogs ranged from 30Lbs Roe to 140lb hogs, with a bunch of fallow (white tail size) deer in between. Might be the bullet for bigger tougher game though? but after using it you have to scrub like hell to get that molly stuff out the barrel.

Tschiemer, grab the sling and the swivel in your left hand and make a fist around it, go from a tight fist to slack fist to adjust the hight, personaly i find i shoot better using my hand than farting about with a sand bag, and in the field a sand bag is just another piece of kit to carry, have to fiddle with and loose, another good method, if the situation is right, is to get the butt dug slightly into the ground, this works well on mossy peaty grass tussocks in Scotland, i have also used my bino's as a rest for front and rear.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 11:32:00 (ZULU)

Robert T.; et al,

My 2 cents worth: I use my left hand or a rock, tree limb, small animals work well.:)) As has been stated, a bag or sock is somethin else to carry/lose. With an Eagle cheek pad, the straps give you a grip/reference point for your hand almost without looking. It took me some practice to get used to it cause I used a bag so much on the bench. I have to admit, I still shoot more accurately with the bag on the bench, but I think most people do. When in the field and gear/weight selection comes into play, frequently your target is larger than a 1 inch square (except at several matches of late) and with the exception of a CNS shot in LE circumstances. It's hard for me to keep a bag under the rear if the target is moving. I try to remember to shoot several strings using hand only when at the bench, load testing, etc. It's a personal kinda thing I guess.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 14:57:14 (ZULU)

Pete L- You said the Boss word....agggghhhhh! My best shooting partner had a Winchester M70HB in 300WM with a micrometer marked adjustable Boss. What a crock of poop!! That thing drove both of us nuts. The only person that wanted to wrap that rifle a round a tree more than me was him. I don't think that rifle lasted more than 3 months until it went bye bye for a Remmy. They should put the Boss on Ruuuu....gggeeeerrrrrs. They belong together.

By the way Pete, your care package should be in the mail soon and I'll get an e-mail to you as soon as I pull my head out of my butt and get around to doing something around here. Oh by the way I would be willing to bet money that your Mauser thing marked "La Coruna 1957" is Spanish. That's a big port city in the north coast of Spain and if memory serves there was or is an armory plant or re-work facility there.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 15:53:10 (ZULU)

REF 168s:

A buddy shot a chick a couple of years ago at 75 yards. FED168GM. Sierra went through the side glass of her Honda, her head, the other side glass and then put a 1 inch dent in a metal building. The bullet disintegrated and was not recovered.

Another buddy shot a guy that was stabbing his own mother, while using her as a shield and trying to drag her into a bathroom to kill her. Sniper dude used his sniper stick (standing position) and an entry guy for a rest. Entry guys couldn't get the angle. Sniper dude put him down. Missed the woman by about 1/2 inch. The distance for this shot class, was FIVE YARDS. This 168GM did NOT exit. Weird.

The round certainly stops what we shoot at. Never been a solid headshot hit failure with it that I know of. It's just unpredictable. Of course, it can all only be so "predictable". Backstop issues are a real biggy in our little world.

Hornady TAP 168 is looking good for many of us for open air gigs. Accurate. Better terminal performance. Fed 165 Tacticals for barriers.

The old "FBI average distance of a police sniper shot" ... does not exist. This is just an old wives tale that has been passed down for years that everyone has accepted as gospel.

Therefore, the American Sniper Assoc. has taken it upon themselves to conduct their own survey. We are almost done conducting a sniper specific survey of every police/sheriff agency IN THE NATION with 50 or more sworn personnel. No little task.

The findings are eye opening and the engagement distances are proving to be shorter overall. Lots going on behind the scenes fellas.

I been busy.

So much to learn ...

Watch your sixes friends.

brian k. sain
Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 17:31:14 (ZULU)

movie buffs:

Movie of Son Tay raid in "production" (which could also mean it will never be completed).

John Milius dir, John Milius and John L. Plaster writers.

click on my name for IMDB URL.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, October 12, 2003, at 20:48:20 (ZULU)

F-class;

A buddy of mine fired in the Mississippi state high power championship today. This year they had F-class. Range was 600 and 1000 yards.

He used a Winchester Stealth in .308 with a BSA scope and 178 Hornaday A-Max bullets. Score at 600 was 200 of 200 with 12X. He then swithched to a 280 for 1000 and fired 188 of 200 with 1x, thereby pulling defeat from the jaws of victory with a total of 388 of 400 with 13x. Winning score for F-class was 394/14x.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 03:38:51 (ZULU)

John A.

You have incoming - No attachments!

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 04:20:33 (ZULU)

Sarge, FCS;

SO you found out about WIND at capitan! Did I forget to mention that once you get on the range, go ahead and put 10 minutes of wind on the gun? Don't worry about which direction, it'll switch soon enough. I once wore my thumb/index finger out on my M-1A, working 17 MINUTES either side of MZ, many times during the match.

And I have been there when we lost two target frames. Broke the 2x4's and they went sailing! Called the match and we were in the beer by 0930!!!

Cheers.

Caison
Monday, October 13, 2003, at 05:08:01 (ZULU)

Caison,

Kept my eye peeled for a yellow lab; he was smart and stayed in out of the wind!! Come spring I bet he will be there.

I've yet to shoot a match at Capitan when the wind didn't get to blowing pretty decent. I could hang off the target carrier with all 160lbs and not get it to budge until the wind changed direction slighlty or had a let off. I was happy to have only lost 12 points at 1000 (138-5X). Started off nice, wind was blowing but was at least close to being consistant.

Since I managed to show up late, the guys were nice enough to still let me shoot, I ran the 800 yard portion in about 5 minutes with a 149-12X. 900 was a bit tougher as the wind started picking up and I dropped 5 for a 145-7X. Given the day, and my tardiness, a 432-24X wasn't too bad. Match winner shot a 442 with 32 or 34 X.

I was kinda hoping to test out some 190 JLK VLD loads at 1000 for the afternoon, any-any match but I don't think I'd have gotten much useful information about the load.

If you ever make it out this way, give me a heads up and I'll meet you at Capitan or ABQ for some range time!

FCS
NM, USA - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 06:24:43 (ZULU)

Gents,

Shooting with your off hand around the sling works for some, but not watashi.

I get a distinct pulse and rifle movement when using that position.

Instead I have tried sand bags, and a number of other objects. All are a pain in the keester.

Best set up to date has been a Mini-bag shaped like a dog biscuit. The rifle butstock rests on the "ears" and your hand/pulse is separated from the rifle stock. Nice and stable.

I'm thinking of a mini version of this that would wrap permanently around the sling and always be there for use. Filled with styrofoam B-B's it weighs next to nothing. Although, I really prefer sand.

Still "combat deadlined" with this damn cold. Hunting on hold until I'm 100%. Sucks...

Your comments are solicited...

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 06:41:24 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

My shooting buddy made up a rear squeeze bag filled with "glass micro-ballons" that worked pretty slick. Compression was very close to sand yet weight was about one third. Crush on the glass micro-ballons was around 60,000 psi if memory serves me correctly; so the micro-ballon are not going to get broken easily. Been a couple of years since he and I did that experiment but I could see if he has any micro-ballons laying around. Worst case I could at least let you know where he ordered the micro-ballons from. You could fill up your "dog biscuit" and see how it compares. Let me know.

FCS
NM, USA - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 07:10:45 (ZULU)

Interesting stuff Brian. Guess that illustrates the point about match bullets. They will and do kill, just the terminal ballistics are not predictable. Sometimes they explode, sometimes they punch through like a needle, and yes, sometimes they do a nice job. Large game deserve better and with a lot of good hunting bullets out there that can rival match stuff for accuracy there really is no excuse for shooting deer and such with match bullets.

Still on bullets, any of you guys tried the new Nosler Accu-Bond bullets. Just saw them yesterday in a Sinclair catalouge, which I've had for months, don't know how I missed them on the first dozen flick throughs. Any experiences or comments would be very welcome.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Monday, October 13, 2003, at 12:26:55 (ZULU)

Ey up Jon. we had our first frost in this area this morning, in the Harz and the foothils of the Alps (south of Munich and around the Bodensee) they have had heavey snow, very early in the year for both regions, its not 4 weeks ago that they had over 30 deg C and now its a white out, it looked strange seeing treas still fully green covered in snow, wonder how it will effect the Stag Rut. Let you know about rail for steyer tomorrow. calling HS tonight.

Joe, i'm looking forward to the Jerky, thanks. and yeah, the Boss, now that was a bright idea i think i about shot the barrel out before i found the sweet spot.funny, i got rid of that winnie and bought a remington too, maybe i should have just unscrewed the damn thing on the end and bought a decent stock for it, i surte as hell wouldn't touch a boss equiped rifle again. what did it stand for anyway? Balistic organised shit storm, Big 'orible sound sausage or bugger off system sucks ? Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 12:57:24 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln,

Ballistic Optimizing System, or something to that effect.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, TEXAS, US of A - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 14:55:06 (ZULU)

For what it's worth, I used SMK's for about 6 months for hunting coyotes. Coyotes be much tougher than white women or anything but a drugged canibal. I got a chance to see a lot of hits, I'd say more than a Sniper would see in a life time or two. Some big dogs and some little ones. The SMK would usually shoot a cylinder of meat about an inch or so all the way through the animal. Not a single one survived an encounter with a 168SMK. Fartherest distance was maybe 350 yards. Except for one running shot about 450. On that one it took a polishing shot to finish. IN this state you can shoot hollow points at deer. Although it's a little unethical and I probably won't the SMK is technically a hollow point by their definition.

I was really surprised by the performance but I'd guess if you blew a shot and hit a limb it would just keep on bookin it. Not a good thing on blaze orange days.

Bolt yer last post is right on as far as I can tell.

My co-worker has folks at Capitan. I would have been there except for a "on-call" situation at work. We wanted to try a WSM and my rusty ole .308 but nothing ever works out when you work for this outfit. I'm only on call 1 week a month now and it always falls on a shooting weekend that I'm not in the damn hospital or movin my money pit daughter around or something like that.

Oh yeah, on that BSA scope that was on that rifle that shot that match by that guy that won it. Gee's I thought I read on here that those things were POS!:) :) :). Is there something in my eye?

And the BOSS. You got to realize if a rifle is inadequate without a BOSS it will still be inadequate such as bedding or rifling problems. If your rifle is shooting optimum then the BOSS can mess with harmonics that can help you narrow your groups. You can buy a BOSS without holes that cuts the sound and blast and the setting of the BOSS will still be about the same. I was working on a sliding weight to do just that but it was obtrusive and early on we thought we had to have a lot of weight, when the BOSS on Brownings came out I thought it would do better than what I had and the ones I've had on good guns did just exactly that.

Brogers
Monday, October 13, 2003, at 15:49:29 (ZULU)

I have heard that somewhere in the manufacturing process, the bullet's hollowpoints can fill with some type of hard lubricant or grease or whatever and this tends to make the bullet act more like an FMJ.

Have also heard that some take a small carbureator type drill bit and clean out the points of their bullets for just this reason.

Now (Forrest Gump voice here) I don't' know about all that, but it is just another one of those things you hear that you file away somewhere.

Makes sense but who knows if there is anything to it?

Hell, I'm just a dumb ole squirrel hunter.

BILL: Yeah, you can sure learn a lot in the hunting fields. We don't really worry too much about the bullet doing the job. It's afterwards that concerns us. We are still responsible for everything it touches on it's flight path. Hell, you know the deal, just thinking aloud.

Later guys,

brian k. sain
Monday, October 13, 2003, at 16:05:18 (ZULU)

Precise shot placement on big game is nice if you can get it. Sometimes an elk is behind some trees and all that shows is a spot the size of a piece of notebook paper. You can tell by the head position that the shot will come out through the lungs, but can't tell by the way he is standing where the shot is going in. Sometimes its a quartering away shot on an animal that is running through trees and precise placement is impossible. You know that you can hit him center mass, but it's not going to be "nothing but lungs". He may carry off a 180 grain .308 at 2700 fps, but - if you're using a 250 grain .338 at 2700 fps - he's not going anywhere.

A few of my hits haven't been pretty, but it has been that shot or an empty freezer. And I knew when I pulled the trigger that he was going down and wasn't getting back up.

But if a hunter doesn't work at learning to shoot a heavier rifle, he shouldn't. Most hunters carry rifles that they're scared of.

CDC'
Monday, October 13, 2003, at 18:04:36 (ZULU)

FCS,

That is good shooting out there. I shot there on and off for about 10 years, hardly missed a match in the last 5 or 6. I probaby only saw "no wind" once or twice at 1K there.

I think we're going to try and get back out that way next Sep. We have some frinds in Capitan, Alto and Cloudcroft, as well as Clovis still. We'll have to see about matches in Capitan then, I think they have a state or regional there then... at least they used to.

Also, I have Thor's (the yellow lab) "brother" to bring out there too, to let them run together again. "The boys" used to go just about everywhere with me, and we went there a lot.

Do they have the new range up and running in ABQ? I know they were getting some zoning problems with Zia and were looking at swaping for someplace else.

Takce care,

Caison
East coast, - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 18:14:04 (ZULU)

A common mistake that inexperienced hunters make is shooting at a whole animal, they make the same mistake when trying to find game, looking for a whole animal, mostly i pick up the presence of game by seeing the twitch of an ear, the tip of an antler, a leg line that goes vertical when all the branches are horizontal or the back line when all the grass goes vertical. When shooting game we are looking for a ... what shall i call it? window, a window that takes us on an open path through to the animals vital organs, it doesn't matter where the window starts in reality (however i'd ethicaly question certain shots as bieng un sporting in some situations, however if your about putting meat on the table of culling deer or that trophy elk of a life time is infront of you then you cant afford to to pussy foot around, I would pass on any shot that meant shooting a game animal up the arse), but the path should lead through vital organs, preferably the heart, failing that lungs and liver and if you want to stand a chance of anchoring the beast, then you must break at least one shoulder. I don't always manage to get on the vitals 100% of the time, although this is what i strive for, i do however use ammunition loaded with bullets that will do as much dammage as possible to ensure that a centre mass hit will be incapacitating, it gives me some insurance against the wind gremlins and other screw ups. There are those who hunt our small roe deer with a 243, Ive done it and wasn't impressed, i prefer a 30-06, i guess if one moves up a few steps in game size one perhaps aught to move up in power on the rifle side, but if it was all that simple we'd all be toting a 7lbs 50 BMG sporting rifle. What ever you use, learn to use it well. and use hunting bullets when hunting.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 19:59:59 (ZULU)

Personnel Info Update:

If any of you have me in your personal address books you will need to make a change. My cable company decided not to renew a contract with Earthlink so my new e-mail address is the same name @ "charter.net" instead. My work e-mail address will stay the same and the Earthlink address will still be working until about the 15th of November but I didn't want to wait until the last minute.

I hate changing e-mail addresses it is so much work. You don't realize how many different places it needs to be changed. Oh well, one site down and more to go.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 20:46:26 (ZULU)

A little clarification......

While they will work, I do not advocate the use of SMK's on deer-sized game.

The instance that I cited was after a summer of chuck hunting on a dairy farm, during which I watched a herd come out time and again and feed before dusk, always using the same gap in a fence. Said gap was up a gentle slope, from a steep ditch. I set up prone with the bipod on the top of the ditchbank, about 140 yards, and could have shot the doe through the eye if I had wanted. More like benchrest shooting. Clean broadside shot through the exact center of the heart, and minimal meat destruction. But probably four square yards of blood spray from the exit wound.

But this was a special set of circumstances. I agree with both CDC' (most hunters use guns that make them flinch, often from lack of practice) and with Pete (visualizing your bullet path THROUGH your quarry!)

Study your game anatomy! Just as most hunters cannot describe accurately the location of a deer's spine in its neck, I would bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that half of them cannot show you on a photo where the heart is.

A very wise old deer hunter told me years ago:

If it's a head-on shot, shoot for the center of the chest. Anything else, shoot for the opposite shoulder......that will take the bullet through the boiler room. And NEVER shoot anything you respect up the ass.

I wouldn't even pull a trigger on a chuck unless I knew I was ahead of the diaphragm.

Prairie dogs are another issue completely. Hit 'em anywhere with anything Hornet or above, and they blow up.

My $0.02.....email me to find out where to send the checks to!!!!

Y'all Stay Safe, and good hunting (Wish I could get back to NY State for a bit.....)

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, October 13, 2003, at 21:26:55 (ZULU)

Lady & Gents,

Stephen Hunter has a new one out. Just ordered it from Amazon.com. It's an Earl Swagger novel called "Havana".

The blankety-blank ding-dong liberals are at it again here in Missouri. We had to over-ride the governor's veto to get concealed carry and now the liberals got an injunction to delay or scuttle it. Was all set to teach a class on it in conjunction with the Sheriff Friday evening and it got shot down at the last minute. It's now up to the Missouri Supreme Court to rule on it!?!!??

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 02:51:37 (ZULU)

Just back from the Texas Long-Distance Championships at Mineral Wells. There were 37 shooters, 21 of them in F-Class. There were 3 Palma matches (15 shots for record at each of 800, 900, and 1000 yards), plus side matches of 20 rounds for record at 1000 on each of the first two days which didn't count in the aggregate. Out of 1350 possible points, I managed 1327-58X, placing me 8th in the F-Class contingent. The guy who won the F-Class did so in convincing fashion, shooting on one day 450-41X, which may be a national record.

I learned several things. You have unlimited sighters at 800, and it's wise to take several. The second day, my first two sighters were a 10 and an X, so I figured the rifle was ready to rock, told my scorekeeper I was firing for record, and fired a 9. More sighters more betta. I also used a B-Square level on my scope base, and used it to keep a consistent level on my bipod. Worked very well. I also learned that you need to watch both the mirage and the flags - one day the mirage reversed, so I held in the opposite direction. But the wind hadn't really reversed enough, and I shot an 8. After that, I set my spotting scope up on low magnification so that I could see the range flags at 200, 300, and 400 all in the same field of view, which I couldn't see very well at all with my naked eye, and used that to confirm that the mirage and flags agreed. Good idea - worked well. I also found that it was prudent to score and pull targets wearing sunglasses to avoid eyestrain, but that I could see better to shoot wearing my regular glasses. Also, score using my non-dominant eye on the spotting scope, and take eyedrops for the same reason - the wind really annoys your eyes, and tired eyes see less well.

The more I shoot, the more I learn - funny how that works...

Good time, lots of nice folks.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 03:55:48 (ZULU)

Gents,

I see we're still kickin' around the use of match bullets for hunting.

Agreed with a host of others on the list. It'll work, but don't do it. Most states have laws against use of HP's or the like and no FMJ's.

Toward that end I loaded some Speer 165 grain "Hot-Cores" a long while back over an old match load of 41.7 Gr. IMR-4895. Accuracy was very good and that Speer bullet performs well on game. Today I would use a 165 grain ballistic tip over 45.0 grains of Varget. Both would work well.

Still have the bug, but am improving. Don't know what this is, but I don't want anyone else to catch it! This is going on two weeks of feeling like dog-do...

All for now. Tomorrow is my "Monday". More fun with the lads.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 03:59:47 (ZULU)

I just finished Havana. The author talks about Earl using a 38 super 1911, and thumbing the hammer back from half-cock. I've never used a 1911 that did that.

But the rest of the novel is pretty good. The letcherous Arkansas governor(congressman?) sounded familiar ; ) And you get to be there for Bob the Nailer's first deer.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 04:22:50 (ZULU)

Thank you. Hope you make it out this way, would be a pleasure to meet you in person. Zia recently signed a 5 year lease so we have a reprieve for a while. :-) I've heard rumors that another club will be opening a 1k range but I'm not sure about the location. Albuquerque city range is supposedly going to set up a 1k range as well but I've not heard when.

Lindy,

Nice shooting! If there are enough flags, like at Raton, I've had pretty decent results on finding a flag that the wind would be blowing towards me. I could use that flag for direction and the other flags for speed. Sounds like you have pretty decent system/sequence set up already so you may want to disregard, afterall free advice is worth about that much. :-)

Brogers,

We shoot 300, 500, 600 yard match at ABQ the 1st (and 5th when month cooperates) Sunday at Zia. Challenging course as we use MR63 target at all distances. Would be great if you could make it!

BSA scopes?! Just like everybody turns out a turd once in a while....everybody turns out a jewel once in a while! Dunno, never looked through a BSA. Done my share of experimenting with different glass, now swapping out for Leupold as the $ will allow.

FCS
NM, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 05:38:35 (ZULU)

AceHigh, When you get a chance to shoot the DCM provided M118-LR let me know how it works out. I have a couple of cases on the way and I was just curious....

Michael
CA, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 08:33:54 (ZULU)

HP bullets,

I was told, any material that finds its' way into the HP will make a RN out of it. That's why using hollow points for home defense is bad ju-ju; if you have drywall and 2x4 construction. Take some scrap drywall and 2x4's and 2x6's and put some paper or cardboard behind 'em so you can see the results. Shoot 'em at various angles with different types of H/P's. A standard .38 will penetrate D/W and a 2x4 length wise. There is a video that sumbody (Wilson) I think makes, that does this demo to demonstrate the difference between cover and concealment. He uses different calibers as well. I'm pretty sure it's Bill Wilson.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 11:39:30 (ZULU)

FCS - that flag technique sounds like a good idea. I'll use it! Of course, using flags is tricky in places like Raton, where the flags were sometimes pointing in opposite directions... What I'm learning is that you have to consider all the information that you can get - flags (all of them), mirage, what you can feel and hear - and somehow process it. I scored at Mineral Wells for some really good Palma shooters, and it was interesting to watch them doping the wind. Some of them were watching others shooters to see where their sighters were going before trying their own.

At Mineral Wells, the 600-1000 yard lines are shielded by trees, while the lines below that are open. It made for interesting variances in the effect of the wind. The range also slopes down toward the targets, which is why I needed my spotting scope to see the lower flags well, because they did not stand out much against the background of the terrain.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 15:04:22 (ZULU)

FCS; I'll work on getting down there some time, but I'm not really much of a competion shooter anymore anyway but it sounds like it might be getting to be some fun with some of this F class stuff.

The gamers and rocket science physicists turned me off several years back. You can't go wrong with Leupold. But some of the cheaper stuff is more attractive than before. I have a little Weaver scope on my AR-15 that really shines in every respect and the BSA contender is hard to fault much. I still have some concerns about the turrets etc. but I compared it to a 4.5X14X40 Leupold and it was clearly able to tune parallax better and the lens was clearer at extreme range.

Doc; You can't believe a law upholding the second ammendment principles can be challenged but damned if they don't find some way to do it every time. We've been fighting that situation in this state for decades now. Every bill goes through the Legislature but the eastern cities in the state all elect the Gov. and it's gets vetoed. The politicians are numerous enough to override and most are glad of it, they are mainly just pacifying their constituants in their districts and know the cities Governor will override it anyway.

Brogers
Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 17:30:35 (ZULU)

Anyone know the status of Maj. Joe Mahon? I need to get up with him on his time frame for return to Kuwait. Working on "Big Box" number two for the soldiers. I just got 900 cans of dip donated to our little endeavor.

Let me know if you would happen to know anything.

Thanks,

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 17:39:57 (ZULU)

Acehigh...

A number of years ago the Gunsite folks did a study on penetration of pistol and rifle rounds on various types of construction..They built walls, both interior and exterior, out of all types of ordinary materials, put insulation in the exterior walls, etc.,etc.. The results surprised even the testers. As I recall, most pistol rounds out penetrated .223 ball.......

Big lead bullets out of the 45-70, now we're talkin!!!

Pete, for about a 170 bucks the Marlin folks will replace the straight stock on your guide gun with the pistol grip style, lever, bottom metal and all.

outa here

Markwell
The colorful Alleghenies, WV, - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 18:07:18 (ZULU)

>>Where do we find such good men? And does a $5 scrap of metal embellished with a small red ribbon – the exact same medal awarded Jessica Lynch for being knocked out in a truck crash while attempting to flee a similar enemy ambush, and to an Air Force colonel for keeping good records – adequately express the nation’s gratitude for this hero laying his life on the line?<<

Just as a note, the Bronze Star with V for Valor is a notch above the Bronze Star which Lynch got. Did she deserve the BZ? I with hold my opinion. Did this Marine deserve better? You betcha Red Ryder (think I just showed how old I am). Lastly is Hackworth an asshole? Same answer.

Don Smith
Huntsville, AL, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 19:17:54 (ZULU)

Playin' catchup, so sorry if somebody already said this;

Sir Wes,

This idea was borrowed from a young former Army fella at one of the Sacto. shoots. I took a a coupla zip-lock sandwich bags and put one inside the other and then poured in some "stuffed-animal-innards-plastic-balls" from the local fabric store. THEN I stuffed this into a single m-14 mag pouch which I snapped shut and secured further w/ some OD green 5 kajillion mile-an-hour tape. Then a coupla velcro straps and/or some paracord to secure it to the sling and rear stud.

Seems to work pretty good. Plus it stays with the gun, doesn't flop around, and weighs VERY little. 'Course ya can't eat the little balls like ya could rice... ;o).

Works well on the range. Out in the mud, well I'd probably just use my gloved left hand and a whatever.

Semper Fi!

Spud

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 21:36:45 (ZULU)

drmarc,

Outstanding!!!!! You are in the running with Chris for the "Silver-Tongued Devil" award with a donation like that!

Now would that be 900 cans of Jalapeno dip (in which case we need to raise a like amount of chips), or Cope/Skoal kinda dip?

Either way, it's heartwarming.

Just spoke with Joe. He's the proud Papa of a new baby girl. Mama and baby doing fine. His computer is Tango Uniform, but he's putting the new one together as we speak, and will no doubt post before he heads back. I will leave it to him to post any info concerning his schedule on this (public) forum. Meantime, just ship.....he has two great guys handling everything that comes in.

To All:

My pharmacist is setting up the table for the cards for the guys and gals in the sandbox. Jennifer was asking me for details, and said she was getting her kid's class involved in it too.

And Joe told me that one of the guys involved in the unpleasantness with Saddam's sons was in his office, and he offered him some jerky. Said the guy lit up and grabbed some of the Green Chile jerky and exclaimed, "It's even spelled right!"

Turns out he is from NM.

Joe said he had become real popular. He is not revealing the source of these gifts, wanting to keep the site low-key, but he and I agree that there is no recognition sought by the fine folks that participate in this.......the recipients just need to know that the stuff comes from Americans who respect and appreciate what they are doing.

Folks, you can't know how much these packages mean to our troops. Child Bride and I will put our hands out, again, and beg for more donations. We will continue to do the shopping and shipping and pay the freight.

Just a $29.00 check gets us a whole log of chaw on the rez. $20.00 buys a bunch of baby wipes.

Y'all Stay Safe. I'm damn proud of you.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 22:04:00 (ZULU)

Bruce,

If you contact Joe before I get a chance please give him my warmest heartfelt congratulations on the new baby. Tell him he can get my e-mail from this post if he gets the computer up and running. Oh by the way, that's 900 cans of good ole smokeless tobacco. It's not the top shelf stuff but I'm sure someone will appreciate it over there! Got a thank you letter from a Sgt.1st class in the 82 that got my 65 pound big box of goodies; he said his guy's were always on the run and that was the first bunch of goodies they had gotten. He was very appreciative and I was glad I could help. You keep up the good work on your end, got my local FOP lodge to sponsor a shipment so things are going well here.

Have a good one,

drmarc

drmarc@se-tel.com

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 00:42:53 (ZULU)

Sarge & FCS,

Glad to have met you bums ;))))

My wife and I were on vacation to Ruidoso anyway and I hoped I could make a side trip to the Capitan match but arrived too late as it was well underway but was happy enough to watch the other shooters and the "mountain" wind with a borrowed spotting scope. That's good experience in itself.

Let me tell ya something folks, Raton doesn't have anything on this Range!! It may not get the swirling motion (8 flags all flying in different directions) like I've seen at Raton since the range isn't butted up against the mountains (but not far from the mountains either) and that's just a one-time experience there so take it for what its worth.

What was really interesting was watching some of the old salts on the line and the resulting hits downrange. On some rounds, the hits would take the same directional change (7 O'clock from a previous 10 or 10X, for example) with no discernable difference in the flags. And then there was the time that the wind went from a 15 - 20 mph (1/8 to 1/4 value wind) to dead flags. Now try to do that w/o flags. Yeah, I can almost hear Bobby W. saying, "welcome to Badlands." BTW, everything that wasn't tied down went sailing off in the wild blue, including one guys straw hat. Don't know whether he ever found it or not.

One of the Palma shooters was good enough to give up his position @ the 1K line to allow me to shoot and I jumped on that. I thought, well this will be fun. No denatured alcohol to clean the oil out and no clue as to the dope but hey thats why I'm here. Anyway, it took me 2 shots to get my W&E dope after the the CBS + 1. The Palma shooter was spotting for me and commented that wasn't bad for someone that had just "plopped" down on the line and started banging away.

All in all for my first time shooting F class... and at this range (a beautiful range at that!! ;),I was very pleased with a (126, 2X @ 1K). FCS and Sarge did very well and wished I coulda got there earlier to do the whole match but glad I made it anyway. I may try to make some of the Spring matches in 04. John (the rangemeister) thought there MIGHT be a match in Oct. (next month) but not holding his breath either.

Anyother thing, FCS. My Elevation is a good (4) MOA less than my home range or Badlands either one. Might note that in your log book. The range is about 6700 MSL (if I remember correctly). That's about the same as Raton. Some of you might keep that in mind as a warmup to next years, "Spirit of America."

Oh yeah. Capitan has pretty good BBQ as well. Your loss Sarge ;)))))

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 04:05:18 (ZULU)

Gents,

Sounds like Spud and I are on the same wave length. Am going to have the wife sew me a prototype "dog bone" and put it on my .308. We'll see how that works. Will try different fillings.

We tried rice and it works. Opened it up after about 1 year and I don't recommend eating the blue-grey colored kernals. We didn't, but if you're feeling manly you might want to give it a try. Should you not report back we'll know what happened...;-)

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 07:13:58 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Whew! Protected then into an open area and sloping away...sounds like an interesting time! I had to pick a couple of flags at Raton, during RMPM, and get most of my info from those 2-4 flags. I'd glance over the other flags but attempting to remember/use all the flags was/would give me information overload. I'll try to think of how to better describe using 2-4 flags and get that sent your way.

Brogers,

Yeah, I can appreciate the gamers and rocket science physicist turning you off to the competitive shooting. We've got some retired guys, some high power/service rifle guys, and some guys that take the F-class match pretty serious. I'm getting more serious about it but not to the point of ranting and raving at the match. I wait until I get home and start cleaning to chastise myself. Putting together a "real" F-class rifle and then hope to get on the National F-class team for 2007; 2005 would be nice but don't think I've got enough time to get it all done.

The cheaper glass has gotten much better over the last 5-10 years. One of the local bench rest shooters, probably in the top 10 for USA, has not had anything positive to say about the BSA scopes. I really shouldn't say much about the lower $ scopes, I've got a couple and can not complain about the service I've gotten from them.

Hope to see you at one of the F-class matches at ABQ. Send me a message off-line to let me know if you'll be down and I'll make sure I take my back up front rest and rear bag.

Mk4,

Glad to hear you made it home safe!! Was a real pleasure to meet you in person, bust some caps, and discuss the wind while enjoying some BBQ! I'll keep you posted if it looks like we can squeeze in another match next month; would be great tune up for me before going to Phoenix for big match in December.

I'll make sure I note that 4 MOA difference, will come in real handy when I get over to Badlands!

Way past my bedtime but I'll be sending you some information off-line in the next day or two.

Until next time...

FCS
NM, USA - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 07:28:24 (ZULU)

Markwell, yep i know the marlin folks will do the swap, but to the 170 bucks ive got to add about $100 postage and then its such a screw about with the damn customs,i ain't sure what is involved sending a rifle out of germany but you can bet it is a pain in the ass, if i could find an email addy for marlin id ask em to just send me the bits and do the conversion my self, If i'mgoing to all the bother with the customs i might as well send it to one of these marlin customisers and have it made into a take down with all bells and whistles,I could just sell it and but one with a curved grip,but i'm quite sentimental about the little gun,i'm having a sort out at the moment with my "arsenal" , got lots of projects planned and i can't make up my mind on a few, for example, i'm still mulling over between 9.3x62 and 450 marlin for this parker hale bolt gun, damn i want the one today and by this evening ive convinced my self to do the other, then Jon b throws a 458 magnum into the equation, I'm like a kid with too few toys,but no bloody pocket money to spend on em.

Jon, you catch up with HS? Anke saw some deer in the field across from our garden the other day, i'm wondering what to pland to tempt them across the road, roses they like, you any ideas?

On cheaper optics, as in all things, you generaly get what you pay for. Had the steiner bloke on the phone yesterday, struck a deal with him, they are waterproofing my bino's (the wet ones) and i'm getting them back , (considering they where only supposed to be water resistant that is a step in the right direction, goddamn lying frankonia propaganda), and i get to keep the 7x50 night hunter xp binos they sent me, if i pay $300, figure its a decent enough deal and to get any more i'd have to got on at Frankonia who published the bullshit calling these binos waterproof and built to mil spec.Any way, for any of you looking at buying bino's, i'd definately say give the night hunter xp series from steiner a good look at, they are first rate and are a bargain.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 08:04:03 (ZULU)

SITREP:

I'm alive and well in the PRC. I've only been in country for ten days and already I'd kill for a Double Whopper w/Cheese. It'll be good to get back.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Guangzhou, Guangdong, PRC - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 13:42:43 (ZULU)

Hey Kevin,

Is the country all abuzz with the prospect of having a "spaceman" some 40 years after the fact???? (sarcasm) :)

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 14:07:28 (ZULU)

F Class Question:

I am shooting in my first F Class match, 600 yds at Camp Robinson, next month. I do not yet know if it will be subdivided into a Tactical Subclass.

What is the rule on using a sling? May I use a Tactical Intervention Sling?

Robert

tschiemer
ark, usa - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 15:27:08 (ZULU)

Kevin, tell you what come home safe and I will buy you one at the next Shot Show. You going to hang at the booth with Frank and I?

Dennis, oh my Mikey Mouse set up. Dude next time I come to Sacramento Match I will make you a rear butt bag, so I dont have to look at that.LMAO Give me an email with dates so I can try and hobble on out.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 16:25:56 (ZULU)

Pete

Called Marlin today....Price for changing out the stock , lever, etc. is now $225....Good news is I sent mine off today, after putting it off for a long time, to have the change over done.. thanks for giving me the incentive!!Have a old .444 that was done over by the Gunsite folks, in the pre-Guide gun days, that I much prefer using, mainly due to the pistol grip stock..It's way more comfortable to shoot..12 3/4" LOP and 16" bbl. make it a bit handier also.. Used it to hammer the big hog a year ago this past may..300gr. XTPs did an outstanding job..I used to call the little carbine "Thumper", but have since changed the moniker{sp?} to "Hog Hammer"..Like the .45-70, it thumps you at the bench but I never notice the recoil in the field. Only other thing I'll do to the GG when it comes back is to ad a enlarged lever so a gloved hand fits in it and have the stock shotened to 12 3/4" for use while wearing heavy clothing..Took the circlip off that was blocking the safety button before sending the GG back also; don't figure the factory folks would appreciate that little modification.

outa here

Markwell
the windy Alleghenies, WV, - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 16:34:57 (ZULU)

Kevin,

RE: SITREP in the PRC

Had a friend there not too long ago. Tells me there's a saying in China, "If it has legs and is not a table, then its edible." My friend took plenty of peanut butter crackers and ran out WAAAY too soon before coming home. Somewhere along the way, they found a McDonalds. Thought they had found the afterlife.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 16:36:22 (ZULU)

Mike,

Mickey MOUSE!?

AAAAAAAAAAAAGHH!!!

The pain...

HA!

The middle son is getting married the weekend of the next match. Gonna be a hell of a party...

So the next match should be Dec. 7th that I'll be there.

Hope you can make it. The offer is appreciated, but you really don't need to.

Take care and I'll see ya!

Spud

(mickey mouse... sheesh. ;o) )

Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 18:47:41 (ZULU)

Does anyone make a good long range scope with a laser rangefinder built into it? I've heard they exist, but have never been able to find any info on it.

Thanks.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, USA - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 19:02:18 (ZULU)

Corbett,

Swarovski(spelling) made one but I am not sure if they still do or if anyone else is doing so now.

Sorry I'm no more help than this.

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 19:06:44 (ZULU)

Robert - I've seen people at matches shooting F-class using a sling instead of a front rest. In fact, up at Mineral Wells, there was at least one guy who mounted a scope on his Palma Rifle to fire the any rifle/any sight match, and shot it otherwise in exactly the same way he did the Palma match. Dunno why one would want to do that, but differences like that help make life interesting.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 20:11:02 (ZULU)

"In fact, up at Mineral Wells, there was at least one guy who mounted a scope on his Palma Rifle to fire the any rifle/any sight match, and shot it otherwise in exactly the same way he did the Palma match. Dunno why one would want to do that, but differences like that help make life interesting."

Lindy,

Try it. When you get to the point of shooting within a point of the F class guys out of a sling, then drop back to a bipod and see how you do. The sling forces proper position and basic shooting fundimantals. I have yet to shoot my first 200 out of a sling, but I've had a few 198's and a 199. It'll make the next 200 all the more satisfying.

Chris...

Chris
Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 20:55:20 (ZULU)

Pete,

I've got a book titled 'Gardens and Deer'. Its suppossed to be for people wanting rid of them, but you could reverse the information. Has lists of vulnerable plants (read 'plants deer love'). If you like I'll bring it over.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 21:18:29 (ZULU)

MK4; so that's why Chinese foods tastes like a Harris Bipod.

CONGRATULATIONS JOE AND THE MAMA ON THE NEW RUGGIE!

Chris; I'd give anything to be able to shoot sitting with a Yucca or Cactus at my back. Damn back surgery and knees like Undudes won't lemme do it. Dammitall.

Brogers
Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 21:30:34 (ZULU)

For anyone in Texas, click on my name for the web link to the club which runs the range at Fort Wolters. The range is excellent, with very nice grass berms and good target pits. It's a great place to go shoot long-distance. There's a Palma match on November 9th at which F-class shooters are welcome. I won't attend that one, as that's the same weekend as the match at Badlands, which is where I'll be.

http://www.fwssc.org

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 01:10:16 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussack,

If you're close enough I can recommend a McDonalds in Hong Kong. And it's right down the street from Planet Hollywood and The Hard Rock Cafe, among other establishments.

Murph

John Murphy
Milford, NH, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 01:40:03 (ZULU)

Heads Up!!!!

Just finished about 4 hours of dealing with Compuserve.

For six years I have maintained the account so that I had a back-up dial-up connection in case my main service crapped out (at $9.95/mo.), but my latest Amex bill showed a charge of $51.30.

Called the Compuserve number on the statement, listed as a Columbus, OH firm.

Eventually got connected to a "Service Representative" (as in the way a bull services a heifer) in India (he said that's where he was when I asked!), who gave me the royal run-around in broken English, sent me to "Billing", who sent me to "Fraud", who told me they could not access my account, but promised to call me back in an hour.

No call back. Called American Express and told them to stop all future payments to that vendor, and commenced a dispute process.

Then a Compuserve guy in the states called and I told him what had gone down. He told me that it could have been a hacker using my account or simply a "Hang-Up", wherein, once connected, the connection is not terminated. His words were, "If that happens, you could unplug your computer and put it back in the box, and the charges would continue to accumulate."

In all fairness, he assured me that they would drop the charge on my Amex bill when Amex contacted them. We'll see. If not, NM AG and BBB will hear from me.

Watch your bills closely! You can get hammered by these "inadvertant" problems, and getting to the bottom of it can be an exercise in frustration!

And tell all these companies that provide "Tech Support" and "Customer Service" through some boiler-room overseas that you are thoroughly pissed that they are maximizing their CEOs' bonuses through these practices, while we have American troops in the sandbox with their wives and families stateside on food stamps.

The guy with whom I finally "resolved" the problem is retired USN, and was as disgusted as I was.

Rant Off.....thanks for listening.

Y'all Stay Safe.

(Edited [twice] to remove excessive rant)

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 02:00:23 (ZULU)

Robert,

At my club you would have to use a rest to shoot F-Class. If you use sling only, they would put you in "position". Then you would compete with all other sling rifles.

Tactical shoots;

Are there any Tactical shooting organizations like what the cowboy, blackpowder, and pistol shooters have?

If not, is there any interest in forming one? Then we could make our own rules for competing and have sanctioned events and even champions, etc.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 02:17:45 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been reading, and enjoying, the recent posts. Good to see Joe back stateside and with a new baby! Congrats...enjoy your time at home.

Lots discussed, but little technical or really insightful information. Sharing tends to be in bits and pieces. Perhaps, as it should be, as that's how we learn.

Have been trying to quantify why I am such a .308 lover. Sure I have my Obermeyer M40A1 clone, a IBA 6.5 X .284, and a Gardner .338 Lapua Mag. Still when I go for fun or as a serious matter it's the .308 M40A1 clone that goes with me. Will try to quantify why that is...

First, the .308 cartridge. Outside of being a service cartridge and in use for over 50 years, the .308 (7.62 X 52MM Nato/Yes, I know there are very minute differences)has stood the test of time and combat. In the field or battlefield performance has been superb.

A balanced cartridge, of course, case capacity is almost perfect to give highly efficient load densities.

What really attracts me to the .308 is it's performance. Not quite on par with the 30/06 with heavy bullets it will beat velocities of those cartridges that have been based on it. I've used all, but the .260 Remington, and they all fall short. Compare the .308 with 150 grain bullets to the .270 Winchester with 150's and you'll see they're not far apart. In short, the .308 performs well across a wider spectrum of bullet weights than it's smaller caliber brothers. Just another reason why I keep coming back to it.

A second reason for being attracted to the .308 is that it is THE STANDARD. We talk about flatter shooters, more powerful cartridges, and of course, there are. But NONE give the consistance performance of the .308, have the specialty rounds available, or are as versatile, IMHO.

Third, is component availability from all makers and quality military ammo available.

Barrel life is exceptional compared to all other calibers I'm aware of...it's not uncommon to hear of barrels going 10-15K rounds before requiring replacement.

Finally, the .308 is capable of handling 90+ percent of most situations. For the military there are other options. I would say for law enforcement that figure is even higher. Brian or someone want to chime in...?

For me, personally, there is another factor. Trust.

I've used the .308 for about 15 years and can honestly say that there has never been a situation that it could not handle. That says a lot.

Still learning and still playing with the .308. Working with Sierra 190's and 200 Gr. Match Kings. More as the story unfolds. That's my winter project!

Still not convinced? Shoot some M118LR in a quality tactical rifle. It'll make a believer out of you.

The .308. It's stood the tests of time and still just keeps getting better.

Guess I've ramble enough. Ducking for cover...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 04:37:07 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

No need to duck for cover.

All you said about the .308, I believe, as does the US Armed Forces.

It's kinda like the Rem. 700 action.......lots of expertise and support available. Far from perfect, but a good platform to build on.

Yeah, I could buy a Ferrari and have the fastest set of wheels, etc.

But what does the most, and the most consistently?

Give me something I can rely on. Love my Hornets, even have a .40-65.

But the .308's would be the last rifles that I would part with (for example, the FAL comes to mind), and the nice one Norm built for me is the one I plan to be buried with!

Y'all Stay Safe!

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 05:37:15 (ZULU)

I just took a cab back to the hotel. After I got in and handed the driver the usual "take me here" card the driver looked back at me and said, "U...ESSah..Ah?". I replied, "Yes, USA." He grinned a big grin and gave me the thumbs-up saying, "U..ESSah..Ah!! good". Knowing that it is good manors here to reply to a compliment with a compliment I smiled and said, "China in space, good?" He replied, "Phsssst...no good...too late." We both laughed.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Guangzhou, Guangdong, PRC - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 07:06:43 (ZULU)

Wes,

Ref .308 & 90%+ application for LE, you are right. As BKS said, there is an ongoing study of LE Sniper shootings to determine distances engaged for academic purposes. The longest current documented shoot to date is a 187 yard shot over/next to, the hostages head to get the perp in the cranial vault. Dropped him in his tracks, literally. No reflexive movement at all. .308 does the job like the energizer bunny.

On occasion, a sniper will go to a .223 when backstop is in question or of known hazard. No guarantee of immediate incapacitation though.

Funeral today. A few days ago, a Lieutenant of ours & his wife were in their car, stopped at an intersection, got rear-ended, intentionally, by an arsehole who had abducted his girlfirend & fled police. Perp was between 80 & 100 mph at impact, "wanting to kill self & girlfriend." He failed, survived. Abducted woman survived. The LT & wife were killed, car burst into flames. The Good Lord does work in mysterious ways. Black badge bands on for a while.

Out

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 12:19:16 (ZULU)

Joe, Congratulations on the new addition!

Deputy Doug.... That truly sucks! Prayers and condolences .....

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 13:22:51 (ZULU)

Morning Guys...

Been awhile since I've had time to post. We have been busy with court, crime is good. Have some great news, by the way, we have a new 9 lb baby sniper in the family!!! Jr. called this weekend with the good news. Our first boy grandchild!!

Wes..

Have to agree with you on the 308, sent mine off a few weeks back to have the barrel set back. Taking 2" off the rearend to give it new life again.

I do have a real love affair with the 260 too. I just love that little round. (You need to try one) I know there will be a 308 an a 260 in my gun locker when I pass on.

Pat
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 14:27:50 (ZULU)

Pat, congrats on the new grandbaby!

Is it just me or has the Duty Roster been dead the last few weeks or what? Are the pre-winter blues setting in early this year?

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 18:57:23 (ZULU)

Back in the early eighties, guy named Norman Mayer said he was gonna blow up the Washington monument with a van full of explosives and then tried to drive away.

Park Police fired his ass up. Some sniper shots were said to have been fired from 400 plus yards but a whole bunch of guys actually pulled a trigger. Arguable on whether or not a sniper connected ... fyi.

As Doug says, the 187 yarder is generally regarded as the longest "true" sniper shot.

308. Yeah Wes, I'd say 90 plus % for us.

WY6s BK

brian k. sain
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 19:32:15 (ZULU)

dmark; The absense of contraversy maketh for a boring game of chess.

Brogers
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 19:53:42 (ZULU)

1000yd range in Indiana,

New. Opens 10:00AM this Saturday. 10 berms, no pits, Pistol also-25,50,75 yd. Members only. Call JR @ 260-463-1497 for more info, directions, etc. NRA range officers course this Saturday as well. $300.00/yr. 1st and $200.00/yr thereafter.

If this should be an Emporium item, I apologize before hand.

Chad/Bearman, Yes I'm going and takin the course.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 20:04:21 (ZULU)

Deputy Doug, that's seriously messed up. Also messed up is the fact that we have not heard anything about it down here in Shitcago. Guess if the shitbag doesn't use a gun, it isn't "newsworthy" Such crap. Cubbies still suck. Ha ha ha. Go Sox. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 20:19:57 (ZULU)

BRogers,

You are absolutely correct sir; sadly I have to say a pissin contest sure would liven things up a bit around here.

Hey, any of you guy's like USO scopes??? LOL!!!!!

drmarc :)

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 20:44:05 (ZULU)

Markwell, keep me posted on the progress of that Marlin, by the time i get that done from here i'll be looking at having spend $500+ with postage, customs paperwork etc, i figure i'll just bring it on a trip to the USA one day and have em do it whilst I'm there.I'm probably betteroff buying a new one with a pistol grip and swapping the bits and then selling the new one on again, be the cheapest option.

Corbett, forget the Swarovski LRF/scope combination, it works but its more of a gimick than a solution, get a good scope with mildots ( Prem ret gen 2 leupy is minimun quality, don't entertain anything less) get a Leica 120 LRF and a Mildotmaster, you will neverneed anything else, KISS is the way to go untill someone comes up with a LRF scope that will be soldier proof and not the size of an IWS.

Wes, shit there are guys over on marlin.com saying the same things about the 45/70 that you are about the 308, guess if one had both one wouldn't go far wrong, but I'll stick with my 06 and my 450marlin, cos i always seem to end upwith the other 10% of shots, for the other 90 you be right on..

Jon you do realise that if i get deer in the garden that my whole DIY will have been for nothing, as i will have to relocate the damn kasie, yes an ambition of mine is to be able to sit on the loo whilst reading a gun mag, look out the window, see a buck , pick up my rifle , which would reside next to the crapper for just such an occasion, and shoot the buck, i did it as a kid once and i want to be able to do it again, i have also been thinking about a pet Muntjak for the garden..

pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 20:49:01 (ZULU)

drmarc... Bored? Try this...

Spindrift....

Trigger50....

Shoot through glass...

out

Gooch
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 21:00:27 (ZULU)

Here....maybe this little joke may help break the monotony? :)

Dave works hard at the plant, puts in a lot of overtime, and then spends most evenings bowling, playing basketball or working out at the gym. His wife, Mary, thinks he is pushing himself too hard, so, for his birthday, she takes him to a local strip club.

The doorman at the club greets them and says, "Hey, Dave, how ya doing?"

Mary is puzzled and asks if he's been to this club before.

"Oh no," says Dave. "He works out at the gym with me."

When they are seated, a waitress asks Dave if he'd like his usual Budweiser.

Mary is now becoming uncomfortable and says, "You must come here a lot for that woman to know you drink Budweiser."

"No, honey, she's in the Ladies Bowling League. We share lanes with them."

A stripper comes over to their table and throws her arms around Dave. "Hi Davey," she says, "Want your usual table dance?"

Mary, now furious, grabs her purse and storms out of the club.

Dave follows and spots his wife getting into a cab. Before Mary can slam the door, Dave jumps in beside her. Right away she starts screaming at him.

The cabby turns his head and says, "Looks like you picked up a real bitch tonight, Dave."

drmarc

drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 21:53:46 (ZULU)

new email is:

tschiemerr@garyeubanks.com

tschiemer
ark, usa - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 21:54:31 (ZULU)

I have a chance to buy a Marlin 1895 in 45 /70. The rifle is about 8 years old with a tiny bit of rust around the rear sight...looks clean and barely shot (I figure it was shot once or twice and then the owner put it down). The rifle comes with three boxes of ammo, one box has two rounds missing <g>

The asking price is $300....is this a good deal?

medicjim
Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 21:58:11 (ZULU)

medicjim,

The guy is trying to hose you, give me his name and number so that I can call him uo and tell him it's not nice to try and cheat people :).

They go for about $600 - $640 new.

Nick

Nick Anzano
Milton, NJ, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 22:40:56 (ZULU)

I think all of the world's attention is over at longrange.com with the F-Class/Tactical pissing match. Talk about getting lost, it all started with a new sub-division at Butner, NC. Now everyone (not literally) is acting like the F-Class as we know it will end. Heck, NRA doesn't even recognize it yet.

Here's some contraversy. A little while back on longrange hunting .com? there were some inquiries into the CheyTac .408 wonder rifles. It got to going pretty good in favor of the CheyTac until folks started asking too many questions.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 23:48:43 (ZULU)

NICK: Hate to disagree but gotta.

You can get those things NIB for $395.00 all day long at the Houston Gun Show.

I know cuz I have wanted one since the day they came out and I eye the hell outta them every time I walk by.

300 bucks ain't bad Jimbo. Not bad at all.

Hey all ... BUMPER STICKER:

MARINES or Martyrs - Guess who gets the virgins? lmao

brian k. sain
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 00:42:30 (ZULU)

1 hour of cat and mouse with a couple of whitetails, a little clumsy ballet to avoid crunchy white oak acorns in the middle of the day, that sweet little finger-pinchin' 48" bare Bear recurve and a XX75 from about 20 yds. at about 100fps................Meat's in the cooler..........So take THAT you bunch of magnum totin', spottin' scopein',mildot dopin' sniper dudes............

Maybe that'll stir it a little............

;)

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 01:46:13 (ZULU)

Brian,

There's only one problem with getting to the Houston gun show, I'd have to buy at least 10 rifles to amortize the cost of the plane ticket. Now I personally don't have a problem with that. My wife however, would fail to see the logic :(.

Nick

Nick Anzano
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 03:10:10 (ZULU)

re: shotguns/social guns.

Alright. So yesterday I picked up my Rem 870 Express Synthetic 7-shot. I have to say it's purty slick. However, it needs some "upgrading". On my list are new stock, GR sights etc. Now, I contacted Wilson/ST about a mag extension. It came with a Rem 6 shot mag tube. Is there a difference in quality between the Remington and the Wilson great enough that warrants getting the Wilson? Wilson emailed me saying "ours are machined from solid bar stock" yadda yadda and that because of that you don't need the clamp that came on it. They went on to say that that's good because the clamp wil affect accuracy when the barrel heats up. Now is he just blowing smoke up my ass trying to make a sale, or is there truth in that? Should I get the Wilson mag extension?

Definitely getting a Vang safety

For stocks, I'm looking at a 13" LOP Speedfeed.

Forend...Surefire. Not sure which model yet...ideas?

Sights....once again, which ones? Wilson? LPA? Others?

What about the "Vang System" on my barrel (backbored, polished, ported)? Is it worth it?

Choke tube? I seem to recall Kevin M. mentioning one on SH that enabled him to get great groups with one.

So, what of the above options would y'all go fer on a "bump in the night" and possible gaming gun?

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 03:19:14 (ZULU)

Rich S: Search "870" in the archives. Markwell, Mike M and I posted some worthwhile stuff. Ned posted some good stuff too. He's been gone for years. Too bad.

Roster in the doldrums? No Pablo, Rick, Dave or Alan. Gooch posts a couple of lines a week. Doc King started a wind thread that could have gone somewhere and nobody followed up.

People move on.

CDC'
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 03:57:13 (ZULU)

China and the space race........a prime example of the blessings of communism.......many days late and many dollars short, but I guess the Marxists around the world are rejoicing......who knows maybe some day they will graduate from making our sneakers......Hockeyref, you got mail....

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 04:16:52 (ZULU)

CDC'

Duh. Don't know why I didn't think of that earlier. Thanks.

I figger' everyone's out trying to get in as much range time as possible before it gets too cold.....at least I hope that's the case.

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 04:17:07 (ZULU)

MedicJim- I don't know bro that 45-70 Marlin for $300...I have an idea! To keep from getting burned you should have it tested. So let me buy it and try it for awhile and I'll let ya know if it's a keeper ;)

It's about a $450 +/- rifle around here.

Man-o-man I just could not get in the bubble with my optic rifles today....blahhh bad day for glass shooting. I was shooting my M1A (irons) pretty well at the 200 & 300. It's my older one (15 years old)that is a factory bone stock NM and has always been a good shooter. However I won't talk about the fuzzy front sight on my M4 with that short sight radius. I'm not getting old and farsighted...I'm not, I'm not. My mommy said so!!

I'm looking forward to going to see the Blue Angles with the kids today or tomorrow at the Miamar Air Show. I love that airshow always have, always will.

Take care all,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 09:30:40 (ZULU)

hy all

my Prayers and condolences to the familis of your three cia pros

killed in homicide bomming in israel this week .

avi

avi
haifa, israel, israel - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 10:20:18 (ZULU)

The guys killed in Gaza were not CIA they were civilian contractors. One former SEAL and a former Marine. I believe they were working for the US State Department.

Lots of guys like that working all over right now as contractors. But not CIA.

Out

Gooch
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 12:30:33 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Buy that Marlin, stoke it with big fat lead bullets and have a ball! Better yet, have it converted to a short carbine ala. Gunsite police or Co-pilot configuration. Makes the handiest big bore thumper going.

You missed a great time early in the month. It only rained one day!!!!!!!!!!

Ideal 870...opinion..14" bbl., 12 3/4" LOP, ghost ring sights{scattergun Tec. Wilson], one shot mag extension, sling with rear stud mounted in bottom of pistol grip, sorbothane recoil pad, Vang comp treatment for bbl., tritium dot in front sight, 3 or 4 shot side saddle. Surefire forearm optional.. Stoke with Federal tactical buck and low recoil slugs or, AA trap loads for in home use. Learn a good recoil controlling shooting technique and to reload quickly to keep it up and running.

outa here

Markwell
Snow predicted tonight in the Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 12:43:17 (ZULU)

The three killed in Gaza were reportedly employees of DynCorp, a Virginia-based billion-dollar company with more than 20,000 employees which provides contract security and other services, but which most Americans have never heard of - they don't need to advertise. One of their principal clients is the U.S. State Department, but that is not their only client. And, of course, the CIA has been known to cover agents in civilian companies. So, those may have been contract civilians. Or maybe not. If not, the odds are that it won't become public knowledge.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 13:42:19 (ZULU)

Rich S.- Unless they changed it, the Remington magazine extension is made up of 3 pieces. The tube, the clamp and the nut that holds the extension to the regular magazine tube. You want to look for a 1 piece extension- plus clamp-so you don't have to worry about things unscrewing at unconvenient times. I've seen quite a few Remington extension tubes launch themselves downrange. There are other strange things that can happen to that system. Choate & Wilson are 1 piece. The clamp is to make sure the piece doesn't unscrew under recoil vibrations and to provide bracing should you find cause to use the piece as a pugil stick, run into something etc. You can use Loc-Tite on the threads, but the clamp is easier. At least in my experience, the clamp moving the POI is blowing smoke.

I also have to correct a comment I made awhile back on 11-87 Police shotguns. They're intended for continued use with heavy loads, they ususally don't cycle with low brass loads with less than 1 1/4 oz of shot. However, they do work very well with Federal tactical buck & rifled slug loads. In mine, the Federal Tactical buck produced patterns 400% tighter than standard buck at 35 yards. Usually 5-6 shot in the A zone of an IPSC target at that range.

WR Moore
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 17:16:07 (ZULU)

NICK: Roger that bro. Hey, wasn't trying to be a dick or anything.

Went into Academy (sporting goods) today and they were $459.95 NIB.

Sodya buy it or what Jimbo?

brian k. sain
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 19:13:30 (ZULU)

Hello Everyone:

This is my cold bore shot. First, a little about me. Father, husband, self-employed, veteran (1/75 Rgr Rgmt '94 - '97, slotted sniper), and newbie to civilian precision shooting.

Finally, I am in the process of building my own rig, and hoping one of you can square me away.

My rig is/will be your typical entry level rig: PSS in .300, IOR base/rings, IOR 2.5x10 with illuminated MP8, Harris bipod, etc. Factory barrell and trigger. Nothing fancy.

My question is on the use of a particular product during break in. Granted, whether or not to break-in can be debated 'til the cows come home, but I'm one of those that does break in a new barrell.

My experience with cleaning solvents has been limited to Shooter's Choice and Sweet's. I am seeking information from anyone who has used JB compound at length (the grey/brown type), and whether or not it is safe to use during the break in process on a new barrell.

I'm nervous about putting something I have never used before into a new barrell. If JB is a No GO for break in, is there another type of copper remover, other than Sweets that is acceptable? I am in posession of Shooter's and JB at the moment, and would rather not have to wait another week to start the break-in (by ordering Sweet's from Brownell's).

Thanks for your help.

Mitch

Mitch Grigsby
Harriman, TN, USA - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 19:43:16 (ZULU)

Mitch,

Dont sweat the break in. Shoot it and clean it the way you were taught at sniper school. Just a question. Why did you go with the .300? They tend to eat barrels.

Lyndy. I was an aquantance of one of the guys in Gaza and they werent spooks. Just regular Joe contractors making a buck.

Out

Gooch
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 19:59:28 (ZULU)

BKS... the rifle has been verbally puchased...but not yet in my possession. I need to make certain I know the current NJ law on person to person rifle sales.

Load development for 45 / 70. Any suggestions on sources of brass, lead bullets, powder. Anything special about seating lead bullets vs HPBT?

Oh, and much thanks to all that offered to make the purchase in my stead.

medicjim
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 20:07:19 (ZULU)

Gooch:

I went with the .300 based heavily on the recommendations of my old spotter / section leader. When he got out, he started shooting a .300, and couldn't stop singing its praises as opposed to the 7.62. According to him, his dope calculations are, often times, half of what they were for the 7.62. I guess we shall soon see.

I had all but settled on a 7.62, because it is what I knew. But, at the last minute I decided to give the .300 a shot. I guess it is just a carry over for both of us, cause we tried to get them to let us convert our M-24s over to .300 "back in the day", but the flagpole wouldn't let us due to the amount of ammo already allotted to us for the 7.62. God forbid our government waste anything.

If is eats up the factory barrell, that will just help me justify a new one to the wife!

From your reply, can I assume that you don't think the JB will ruin a new barrell?

Mitch
Harriman, TN, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 20:42:45 (ZULU)

Mitch,

Skip the JB, clean the rifle each round for the first ten shots and shoot the thing a whole bunch... burn that damn factory barrel out and have fun doing it...

If you notice your barrel copper fouling after the first 10 rounds, you can soak it in Hoppes overnight or wait on the sweets....

I use normal Isopropyl alcohol to clean out the sweets and then dry patch....if you are in a humid environ, maybe a light oil patch...

medicjim
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:02:58 (ZULU)

Mitch,

I must commend you on the choice of 300 winnie..Don't listen to Gooch(ha!!), the 300 winnie reigns supreme over the 308 win at any yardage, in any situation, unless it's a matter of getting to the target in a sluggish manner..but I digress...hahah..

McGramps mrbullet,

Congrats you ol' fahhht..and keep them 6.5 pills singin', I might be pickin your brain in the near future...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:12:13 (ZULU)

Mitch,

What will wear out first will be the throat of the barrel or the area where the lands and groves meet the chamber. Im sure these guys will tell you more.

The .300 is a good round for sure. Just a bear to shoot sometimes. A .308 barrel will last you around 10000 rounds while the .300 will last around 2000 from what I hear.

Did you go to school in Benning or Bragg?

Out

Gooch
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:19:45 (ZULU)

I have been checking the archive page and it hasnt been updated since August.

No complaint, just wondering if it is the same for everyone else? If not then I have a problem with my browser not updating that page for some reason.

Pete Lincoln

Did you get my email from couple weeks back, in response to your question? I sent you information about the binoculars you were looking at.

radio1
All Over, Pennsylvania, USA - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:43:07 (ZULU)

Pete Lincoln,

Hey man. We fly into Frankfurt in the morning then we head to Nuremburg and Munich. We'll be in the AO till friday.

Gooch

Gooch
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:46:03 (ZULU)

Gooch:

I'm one of the cases that never went to school. I was trained on the job. My section leader, who trained me, was a SOTIC grad. I finally got my SOTIC slot, signed out, and went. When I got there, some friggin' PAC clerk failed to send my medical records, so I had to turn around and come back home.

Due to other things going on at my unit at the time, the next rotation was not a possibility. By the time I could go back, I was too short, and would have had to re-up to go. At that time, I had had about all of Clinton's "kinder, gentler Army" that I could take, so I came home.

So, you are looking at a guy that was a sniper team leader in a SOCOM unit, that has never been to sniper school. How's that for being a pogue? (It's no biggie. In my unit, you only had to be a school grad to get section leader, and I had no intention or re-upping anyway. But it does stick in my craw that I never went to school. I just wasn't willing to give them another four to do it.)

Maybe I'll have to go to one of these civy schools one of these days, so I can check the block.

Mitch
Harriman, TN, - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:46:22 (ZULU)

Brian,

No exception taken. I'd love to buy that rifle for that price. The $150-200 I could save would buy a lot of "food" for that puppy.

I just may have to take a trip down your way.

Nick

Nick Anzano
Milton, NJ, USA - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 21:46:58 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Yeah, I guess I forgot to mention I make barrels for a living..So I forget about things like barrel life, hell I don't even clean mine anymore, just rebarrel, haha....But effective 'accurate' barrel life for 308 is around 4-6000 rounds average, and that depends on the situation..You can get to 10K rounds thru a 308, but you'll definitely be limited in range, I remember seeing the throat on the HS gun after 10k....woo hoo, silky smooth!!!

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, October 17, 2003, at 22:01:23 (ZULU)

JR.

WHen I started teaching at SSIS Quantico used to say to change barrels at 5,000 around 1983 then by 1986 we changed it to 10000 after testing for a few years. Of course its good to keep track and get them checked every now and then.

THe Army used to not keep track, dont know if they ever started or not. We had an M24 in AR that I used to call our 8mm smoothbore. It would shoot good after it warmed up but when it was cold it was a little twitchy. COld bore's were usually way off from the rest of the shots.

You da barrel man...man...

Gooch
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 22:23:59 (ZULU)

MatchKings on critters-back before 9/11, when I had spare time, I did some tests with 69 gr SMK's after being impressed with their performance on groundhogs. At 100 yards, they fragmented. At 200 they tumbled, broke into several pieces & the core & jacket separated. Not necessarily in that order.

I only did one test, which proves nothing, on 7.62. At 200 yards, 155 gr Palma Match Kings stayed intact. Oddly, the base came around and it contined to rotate clockwise around the nose. Wish I'd had the time to look at this further.

In short, on game animals over 30 lbs or so, dedicated game bullets are a much better idea.

WR Moore
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 23:06:42 (ZULU)

Muntjac for pets indeed. Your a damn menace to the local ecosystem. Those little bastards will wreck the local ground floura. Tell you what, you get it and I'll shoot it; deal? Never eaten munty before ;-)

JR,

You are just like one of them aforementioned table dancers. You get me all hot and bothered then leave me hanging. Any news on a price for the 10/22 barrel and will they have enough meat on em to profile out to best part of 1"? I didn't mean you looked good in a g-string; in case you were wondering ;-)

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Friday, October 17, 2003, at 23:25:30 (ZULU)

Rich S.,

I have the Vang Comp ported system on my Mossberg 590A1 and I think it's worth it. With Federal LE132 Tactical 00 buck, it's patterns will stay inside 6 inches at 25 yards. It extends your effective range with buckshot to 35 to 40 yards. The porting also reduces muzzle jump while not appreciably increasing flash or blast.

On the Surefire forend, I have the Surefire 623 light on it with only the pressure pad switch and if I had to do it over, I would get one with the optional system disable switch to keep it from being activated. The reason is it's too easy to activate the light when its stored in a case or if I'm shooting it at the range in daylight conditions, it's very easy to accidentally hit the pressure strip. Another tactical reason, is if you're sneaking around in the dark, you might want to make sure you don't accidentally turn the light on.

The choke tube that I have heard mention that gives good results with buckshot is the Pattern Master tube. I have no personal experience, but it might be worth checking out instead of the Vang Comp system.

Whatever you do, in the shotguns I have shot, the low recoil buck (Federal Tactical, Winchester Low Recoil, and Remington Low recoil) and slug loads are a must. The low recoil buckshot loads pattern the best in every shotgun I have shot buck through, and the low recoil slugs don't make you feel like someone used your shoulder and cheek as a punching bag.

Ted

Ted
San Diego, CA, - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 00:25:53 (ZULU)

Mitch;

Welcome. I don't use any abrasives in any barrels. The .300 is a good caliber. It and the .308 will be about even inside 600 yards. Past 600 is the .300's home.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 01:46:57 (ZULU)

Gents,

Back in the rolling hills of Wisconsin for a short while! To say anything about this little break would sell it short, so here's some updates:

On 7 OCT, wife had child number 4; a girl (3 in a row), 7 pounds, 13 ounces, going by the name Aubrey Ellise. Good stuff.

Peanut is doing great, and we keep the prayers flowing. She's still on the money for a cure--and she is tolerating the increased chemo really well. And man, is she ever daddy's little girl. Coming off the plane, she about knocked me over! That was worth all of it by itself.

Blake arrived from Boston, and (after the birth of course) we did some shooting. He has added some 6 inches to his stature, and this really improves his shooting off the bench. On the Swede's open sights, he placed his ten shots inside dad's five at 300 yds. Good eyes of youth vs. old eyes uncorrected. After smoking him with the scopes at longer ranges, I decided to explain wind. He was taking it all in, mostly to beat his dad next time around. Motivation is a good thing, usually. And at 14, it was good to hear him say he was coming back to me when my tour is over. It is his choice at this age.

Working the carbine and M9 while here too. I wished my issue M9 shot as well as this one does. I must have a monday gun over there.

My leave ends Friday--I leave home on wednesday. Believe me, I made the most of it!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 03:04:17 (ZULU)

Jaeger, try a 5% solution of bleach for the plastic taste removal. Worked once for me, but now that you bring it up--and I ain't drank from it in awhile--it does taste like plastic again...never mind.

Observations from home:

Doesn't anyone remember how the unconventional enemy gauges success? He watches the US home front--not the troops in the field--to see if his attacks are getting desired results. So why are the newspapers and newschannels full of aid and comfort from the left? This only serves to stiffen their resolve. As in, "hey, we are getting creamed, but we gotta keep at it." Because in this part of the world, the US is well known to lose resolve if challenged. Now, we have a primary race dedicated to the enemy's success. Strange homecoming, to be sure. These pukes are showing "traction" for the bad guys...and no one seems to give a shit.

Point two: Can't swing a cat without hearing how "bad it is" over there--as in "poor you." Now, I tell them that (at least in the south) that we're actually rather well liked---and they can't believe it. Odd, how everyone can form world views from a few negative reports in the news. In france, they see Columbine, DC shooter and high speed chases all the time. And some folks tend to think the whole US is like that...the truth in the wrong hands is a bitch. We ought to be clamoring for some good news stories in our media, I suppose. Just to balance the moron's view's a little.

On the lighter side: I left and wife's red hair was down to her butt. I come back, and it barely covers her ears. Does this mean I can buy a new rifle?

Leave it to a barrel maker to recommend a 300! JR, you ought to be ashamed..heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 04:02:56 (ZULU)

Pat and Wes

Over the winter I'm having a M40A1 clone built in .260. I have a very accurate .308 already and will do some side by side compairsons when the 260 is done. I have been invited by a fellow F-Class shooter to come shoot on his 1000 yard home range. Will report findings as they happen.

Pat, what type of dies, reloading components, and reloading process do you use for your .260? The riflesmith has built several .260's that shoot in the .200's with good handloads, and I want ammo that will shoot to the rifles capability. Feel free to hit me off the Roster.

Take care all.

Bill Byford
South IL, USA - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 04:43:30 (ZULU)

Current USMC policy for M40A1 barrels is 7K rds. That was the last word I heard from Q town.

MedicJim, get a Lyman cast bullet manual or their #48 manual. The cast bullet is better for your purposes. I'm all gunji on lead bullets for my 45/70's right now. Feeding a 1886 Winchester takedown and a Guidegun, I have 405gn Lee HP's, 440gn LBT's, 330gn Gould HP's and a few other molds laying about. You want to try some of these LBT's or other lead bullets, let me know. Shooting the 440's, with about 50.0gns of IMR 3031 will put 300 Win mag to shame.

Anyone know offhand what size Torx fastener they use on the muzzle brake of the Barret? The USMC doesn't have any Torx tools standard in an armory, so I need to buy some and I don't know the size. The Sears wouldn't like me lugging a Barret upper into the store. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 04:56:55 (ZULU)

Ken M,

On my M82 the brake is secured by two T30 fasteners. I would have to assume that that has not changed since '99 when I had mine rebarrelled.

Lordy, do I love the Child Bride! We were getting ready to turn in, and I checked the DR, and saw your question. Went into the safe, dragged the Barrett out, dumped it on the bed. Then hiked to the garage at the other end of the house, got my tork drivers out, brought 'em back to the bedroom, and verified the size. Hiked back to the garage, and secured the tool box, back to the bedroom and put the .50 up.

All she did was arch an eyebrow and look at me. Didn't seem to have any problems with this sort of behavior after 2200 hrs.

I grinned and volunteered the info as to what I was up to. She just grinned and went back to her book.

Gotta love them little East Tennessee gals!

Joe,

Congrats again on Aubrey Ellise, and on Peanut's progress, and on Blake's decision. Peanut prayers continue. And I bet the wife still looked just outstanding with the shorter hair (I told you my story!)

Y'all Stay Safe!

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 05:45:21 (ZULU)

Yeah, the 308 barrel life can differ..There have been button barrels that have went off after 2000 rounds, due to shallow grooves or too narrow lands, then there's Boots' 5r with deep rifling which still smoke everyone off the course after 8K..There are 308's which are still ok shooters after 10K rounds with 6" of throat, ha, but like you said Gooch, the CBS tends to throw an unpredictable hook shot, when the barrel warms up it groups better but will occasionally throw a flyer, the 'what in the hell was that?' shot..That's my experience with them anyway, but you've probably seen more barrels past 10K than I..A lot depends on the type of shooting, whether the barrel gets hot, barrel maintenance(mr bullet is a prime example of how to keep your barrel shooting, he takes excellent care of his barrels, well until Jr. gets ahold of them and woo hoo hoo, pat wonders where his rifling went HA!!)et cetera, et cetera..Snipey barrels should last a little longer than course barrels, for example..I'm not saying pack the barrel in after 4-6000 rounds, keep shooting til it quits!! Keep a good round count and when it gives up, tally the shots and circle that number. Thats your barrel life..hah..

Jon,

Table dancer, hahah..With that comment, well I just might have to pull a Brian Sain when I get to meet your better half, haha....Sain, you gots any tips on what I should throw in the jukebox?

I'll let you know more about the 10/22 project when I can see over the pile of AI and DSR barrels we're trudging through at the present..Been in the armoury once this week..

Congratulations by the way!! Our resident Welsh rostahawg placed 5th at a match in Pont Eland(newcastle gun club?) with his 300 win mag fire breathing dragon, looks like you showed Kolbe's Kronies what shooting is all about..Good stuff bud!!

YeeHawww!!!BoSox and Yankees, in true form, that is good stuff..Anyone see the fracas? Go Sox!!What in the hell was Zimmer thinking, the ol' fart...Damn I miss baseball..and hockey...Rugby monday though, USA v Scotland Woo Hoo!! Didn't even know the US had a team but apparently they are good, they beat Fiji..So it's off to the pub monday for sure..

Joe M,

Hah, you caught me out..I didn't mention the 30-378, now THAT is the cartridge everyone should be shooting. :P The only 308 I own is the BLR, and she is a sweetheart, loves the 165 grain Hornady light mags, otherwise if it's 30 cal in my gun cabinet it's 300 win mag..Just personal preference, I like the 190 grain pills..Congrats on all counts, good to see you safe and sound at home enjoying some well deserved R&R..

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 08:52:20 (ZULU)

Lets talk about 30-06 barrel life !! it will last untill you are stupid enough to get the sucker rusty !!! i am at the moment baffled as to why a consistent 1/3 moa rifle is now shooting 2" groups at 100m all seemingly due to a little rust, anyone had experience with post rust accuracy?

JR, you forgot to mention that the welshman took the placing on the match that was held for the local institute for the blind annual outing !! and don't you Yanks keep a record of rounds fired with every sniper rifle? we do, same with mortars, atk guns, cannon and the like, thy get periodicaly inspected and changed at a certain number of rounds (or equivalent full charge if its the tank or arty barrels)

Gooch,i am up north in Osnabruck untill a week monday, nursing my knee, will you be still in Germany then? and whatever you do, try a weízen bier with banana juice.

Jon, leica 900 (800 outof production) = 365e, 1200 = 440e. Leica 8x42 = 880e and the 8x32 = 760e. Steiner night hunter xp 7x50 = 670e. i forgot the steyer rail. And Muntjak is the best (black bear aside) tasting game meat ive eaten, i cooked a whole one into a goolash with chestnuts and button mushrooms a yearor two back for Anke's birthday party, and when all the guests had finnished eating i presented Hugo's (so Rebecca calls him) head and shoulder mount to them and asked them to thank him for what we had just eaten, ha, you should have seen the faces of some of her slightly left wing friends, anyways, ive converted them all to the right of the line and game meat since, everyone knows that if you don't wanna eat game, then don't put any food in your mouth at pete's parties, ( now where did i put them hegdehog flavoured pringles?)

Mitch, get some forest bore foam.

Medic Jim, you don't like the Marlin, i'll give you a profit onit ok? the sods cost 800+ here new and can't be found second hand at all.

China in the space race, well i guess with a population that size the'd be looking at some where else to colonise, i figure when Mars express gets to mars and Smart 1 to the moon they are going to find neon signs saying, " Wongs Restaurant all you can eat buffet $6" and as i said to my pakistani colleague Isaaq, the only reason he is in the space industry is that he wants to be the first corner shop owner on mars, oh i'm sorry, that wasn't politicaly correct was it.

To quote the words of a well know Sergeant Major. " Oh dear, How sad, Never mind"

Pete L

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 10:22:30 (ZULU)

M118LR ammo report,

Didn't fire much of it, or at great distance but from 2 different Mike Rock/Gardner rifles the stuff will cloverleaf at 100 yds. with almost no effort at all. Headstamps have run from 99-01 so far and the cans are all sealed with a little wire and lead crimp. Will check ES and SD later. CBS was within a 1/3 moa on both rifles from the standard 44.5 Varget/210M/Lapua/175SMK @ 2.800. The seem to chamber snugly in the SC# 15, almost like they might have been made for it??? I'm pleased.

John

Ken M.

Will get back with you today on Torx size, I've had mine off Several Times. :))

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 12:03:23 (ZULU)

Peter L-I've got a 1917 Enfield that came out of the cosmoline unfired but with a pitted barrel. Still a 1 MOA rifle with the right load. The .222 I bought had a barrel with pits that ate out the rifling lands in a couple places and it still shot 1 hole groups. If you haven't already, pull the rifle out of the stock and check for rust disturbing the bedding and/or stock barrel contact. Check the crown. Then load fresh ammo and try again. Scope mounts???????

In my experience with surplus military weapons, barrel pitting has little effect on accuracy at least for the first 20 or so shots. Once you get to the point where the jacket gets stripped off the core it's another story. Had a couple Brno 7x57's that were that bad.

WR Moore
Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 13:32:38 (ZULU)

Joe M:

Congrats on Aubrey. 3 Girls! Better keep your long range skills honed, you're gonna need them to keep the boys at a respectable distance from the house in a few years.

Hit me with an email when you get back in-theater. Let me know what the current needs are. We want to put together some "Christmas" boxes for the troops.

Nick

Nick Anzano
Milton, NJ, USA - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 14:36:16 (ZULU)

JR: absolutely NO advice on table dancing dude.

It was a dare by a female Israeli sniper for my SWAT shirt at the SHOT SHOW. Guess I'm just stupid that way ... stepped on her plate and dumped Chinese food all in her lap. She's damn lucky I didn't bust my ass and end up in her lap too (or in Child Brides'). And ... some guy ??? was hollering for folks to stick a dollar in my pants. heh heh. My old non-SWAT shooting buddy was embarrassed as hell and Bruce ... was just laughing his ass off and shaking his head.

I figured what the hell ... I'll probably never see these folks again. Ended up making friends for life.

I'd like to say that it's all behind me now and that I'll just stick to cop sniping which is what I know ...

But ... I'm probably half crazy at the very least and have a good time wherever I go, so it'll probably happen again (or a reasonable facsimile thereof).

BKS

"You gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie? - Josey Wales

brian k. sain
Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 16:17:46 (ZULU)

Markwell,

You got incoming e-mail via SC re: 870's.

Thanks

Rich

Rich S.
MD, - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 16:21:46 (ZULU)

Well, that was Sain's story.

Now let me tell y'all what REALLY happened........

Lady X (Israeli sniper) expressed interest in Brian's shirt, and he said, "Hell, you can have it right now!"......this while we were all in an aisle in the LE section. She laughed and politely declined.

We all went to the food court, probably a thousand people there, got our food and sat down at a big round table.

Lady X makes a quick trip to the lady's room. Brian had a replacement T-shirt he'd gotten from a vendor, and says "Well, I'll just change shirts and give mine to her when she gets back."

Child Bride says, "No, wait til she gets back to change!"

Little did she know that Brian would change with gusto on the top of the table, which unfortunately was covered with a slick tablecloth.

Helluva dance.....all conversation in the food court came to a grinding, screeching halt.

Then the tablecloth got him, the Chinese food went into her lap.....lots of applause.

Brian, my man, traction is everything.

JR, remove the tablecloth first.

My ribs hurt for a day, I was laughing so hard. Lady X recalls the incident fondly, as does Child Bride.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 17:38:52 (ZULU)

Bruce, thank you much. I'm gonna wait for Acehigh to see if Barret was consistant with their parts and then run to the Sears for a couple T30's. I really wonder why they didn't turn a raised band on the barrel with a corresponding grove in the brake to make sure the damn thing didn't shoot off when it gets loose. That would have cost what, $20 more machinist time? S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 19:20:20 (ZULU)

Sain,

On second thought, hah....ya crazy shit, hah...

Pete,

You know the cure for the rusty barrel, get one that don't rust..I'm going to have a word with RPA and try to get some barrels sent down there for blacking..We get enough stalkers and Forestry Commission blokes who are stuck with Cro-moly because they need the blacked finish..I'm not sure if it's a PFTE or teflon finish or more of an epoxy paint, but I'll find out when I speak with Ron or Mike, looks tougher than the HS barrel finish, and it looked proper matte...There's also Accuracy international, who use a two part epoxy type paint, if I remember right they use an outside contractor for that work who does defence contracts for the MOD, paint tanks and boats and planes, I may track them down and see what costs are involved there, but I think the RPA route will be more cost effective...

Celt has intrigued me on this chemical engraving work, mucho excellente, check out HD rifles site and have a look, schaaaaweeet...

Oh, Pete, Tesco's has some Bavarian Weizbeir which tastes an awful lot like the stuff we had at IWA, I'll usually grab a couple bottles if I'm in Carlisle..Anyone ever try to squeeze juice out of a banana? makes a bloody mess ;P

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Saturday, October 18, 2003, at 19:38:43 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Congrats on the little one, I'll hoist a San Miguel in the P.I. in a couple weeks for ya. 3rd girl, huh? What, you been getting rides in the EA-6 Prowler or sumthin????

Later Hawgs

Kush out

Kush
Futenma MCAS, Okinawa, - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 01:36:10 (ZULU)

Alright, my first post:

Anyone have any load data for the Remington 40-XB tactical? Gun specifics are 1-14" twist, 27 1/2" barrel. I figure someone has one and can save me some time starting out with a load. Thanks...

THUD

thud@seccomm.net

THUD
Denver, CO, USA - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 03:18:48 (ZULU)

Joe M. asked, "So why are the newspapers and newschannels full of aid and comfort from the left?"

Joe, two reasons. First, the news business is about BAD news. Few people who pay attention to the mainstream press are NOT interested in good news, because it makes them feel bad about their empty little lives. They want to hear bad stuff, so they can feel better about themselves.

Second, the left - and that's where the mainstream press is - hates the U.S. and wants us to lose, especially with a Republican in the White House.

Here's a list of predictions or opinions which have appeared in the "mainstream media" about some subjects of recent interest. Notice their record for accuracy.

Afghanistan:

President Bush has no evidence that al Qaeda was behind 9/11. Ditto that bin Laden was the mastermind of 9/11. Bush's Texas-cowboy approach to the terrorist attack is leading us into disaster. There is no evidence that links al-Qaeda to the Taliban. Attacking the Taliban is sure to incite a global Islamic jihad against America. Invading Afghanistan is a strategic error, leading to a quagmire just as happened with the Soviets. The winter in the Hindu Kush will draw the war out interminably. Guerilla war in Afghanistan will go on endlessly.

Iraq:

The plan is a disaster, relying too much on air power. Attacking Iraq is sure to incite a global Islamic jihad against America. The "pause" is evidence that the supply lines are stretched too thin, and the forward combat troops will be cut off and slaughtered. The fedayeen will cause casualties by the hundreds. (Well, they did, but it was they who were the casualties. Trying to attack an M1A with small arms and RPGs is tantamount to suicide.) Trying to take Baghdad will be another Stalingrad and Mogadishu. Looting is a sure sign of disaster. The contents of the Baghdad Museum of Antiquities has vanished.

America:

The Patriot Act has eroded civil liberties, turning American into a tyrrany. Corporate tycoons looting their companies will crash the stock market.

The World:

Global warming will lead to the end of civilization as we know it. Or oil shortages. Or the West Nile Virus. Or SARS. Or something.

And be sure to notice the attention the mainstream press is giving to countries in the U.N. demanding that the U.S. guarantee a date certain for a constitution for Iraq and a functioning democratic government - coming from countries like Syria which have no constitution and are ruled by dictators and thugs.

If you must pay attention to the mainstream press, do so in the vein of gathering intelligence on the enemy - because that's the way they regard us.

Lindy
On the south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 03:41:48 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Saw a pretty good commentator on the PBS (of all places) station.

He made the following analogy:

The UN is like the Town Council overseeing a volunteer Fire Department in a small town, making it an "Ad Hoc Fire Department."

The Fire Department Volunteers must come to the Town Council before they fight a fire, and say, "We have a fire."

If ANYONE on the Town Council disagrees, they can say, "No, there is no fire. Stand down."

And the really fun part is, that some members of the Town Council may be recognized arsonists.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 04:06:27 (ZULU)

WR Moore, yep ive done all that, i took the rifle apart,bedding (devcon) had gone a little soft so i rebedded it, no better, treid it with a different scope, no better, checked mounts, checked everything, the sod still shoots 2" bloody groups at 100m, it used to do far better than that at 525m. There is a blemish about 1.5 maybe 2" back from the muzzle looks like a rain drop or two sat there a while cos the blemish is exactly that shape. I would cut the barrel back if it wasn't that i'd be cutting into the damn fluted part. i dunno if its the rust or the fact that my daughter nocked the rifle off its bipod onto the concrete, but i can't see anything getting bent from such a slight thump. I'm gonna fiddle with it a little more (maybe)i aint ever seen a little rust cause this much effect before but i realy do want to go the stainless route, as this is my Scotland rifle and it always, but bloody always rains when i hunt there.

JR, i asked AI, they wouldn't paint for otherpeople, i wouldn't be bothered about the stainless, if its bead blasted it becomes quite a dull grey colour, whats the price of one of these RPA actions then? and failing that hows about a sporter weight barrel from you guys? I got you hooked on the weitzen then? i had a couple with a bloody great big steak last night. now tell me, just exactly are you squeezing them bananas?

Radio 1, didn't get mail, did you send it to my work addy cos i'm off sick at the mo.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 10:53:41 (ZULU)

Ken M.

Torx # 30. Don't lose the washer/bushings between the brake and muzzle. Very thin and easy to drop.

Kendallville 1000yd range report.

Excellent, multiple berms from 25 yds out to 1000. Enclosed area w/ windows for winter shooting. Roof area for sniper/prone(real comfortable and dry). Double benches seperated by 3/8" lexan or plastic. At every berm there are wooden backstops and HANGING STEEL. # different diameters. 3 First rd hits at 600 CBS with SCLE#15 and M118LR. Just dialed it and fired. 10", 6", 4" plates. The 4" plate spun around the top bar twice. 3.5 mils of wind at 1K. The 30-06 cam seemed to match the M118LR ammo pretty closely all the way out to 1K. Plus 1 MOA or less. PJ and I are goin back today for more testing. Well worth the 300 bucks. No guests and family memberships are $400.00. These guys have dropped some cash and built a nice range. The gator for target checking is new. Steel from 800 and out is titanium. Gotta go, it's a 3 hour drive.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 12:37:15 (ZULU)

Pete,

yeah we can turn your sporter profile, if you can, lend me a profile# or give me some specs(can draw the bugger up on autocad from home here if I have to)..

Oh yeah, hooked on the bavarian beer, yeah, me and Lee both...Not too sure about the banana squeezins...By the way, I get to shoot me a fat whitetail doe back home the end of November, will be in the vicinity of Cabela's(about an hour drive from Da's), so let me know if you want me to pick up some gear(You as well Jon, but not so much I need another plane just for luggage!!)Bloody hell, probably shouldn't have mentioned that..

Scotland v USA, World Cup Rugby in Brisbane Monday I believe..I could be the Muckletoon's most hated man for a day..hahah..Maybe we'll hang the stars and stripes out of the window of the flat..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 13:29:38 (ZULU)

Folks,

Another check to "Goodies for the Grunts", accompanied by a neat letter, some of which I will share with you:

"I'm (mostly) a lurker on the DR. God bless MAJ Mahon and all the guys (& gals) he's taking care of.

...........

"Congratulations to the Mahons and their new baby girl!! Nothing, NOTHING will make a man want to be in uniform more than having a little girl to protect. Mine's 7 yrs. old. I'll be in uniform until they make me leave."

Thanks, William.....another package will soon be headed to the Santa Major.

And an excerpt from another letter.......this from a CPT in the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne):

"We are doing much better after I ran into Joe Mahon in Kuwait. He gave us a great care package from you. I wanted to thank you personally. It was fantastic and everyone in the unit enjoyed all the gifts.

"Joe is a great American and I am glad to to have met him."

Now, my personal thanks to you guys and gals that are contributing to this operation, whether by sending a check to me or by sending your own packages. You are making a difference, and God bless you for it. I emphasize that the care packages come from, not me, but Americans that respect and appreciate what our service personnel are doing.

And one helluva thank you to Joe.

Y'all Stay Safe!

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 16:28:11 (ZULU)

Joe, Congrats and glad you made it home for the birth of your daughter. May God continue to watch over Peanuts and make her whole again. Thanks for being "Santa" to our troops. May God bless you and all that are going in harms way.

Harold

HDR
OK, - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 17:36:11 (ZULU)

Question,

I'm looking to upgrade my gun safe and I've been out shopping them around. My question is which is better, the new electronic key pad combination locks or the standard turn to the right/left type.

Pros and cons on each.

As always thanks for your input and support

Jeff

--------------------

Distance is not an issue, but the wind will make it interesting!

Jeff Harmon
McKinney, TX, US - Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 21:01:26 (ZULU)

Ooh JR, hope you got a big case ;-) Thanks for the offer, I think my boss is a regular customer and has a catalogue, so I'll have a GOOOOOD look. I'm sure I'll find a thing; or 2 ;-). Don't forget if your wanting me to look for any kit from FC suppliers.

Guess I was lucky with the F-Class. I'll call it beginners luck, cos I can't exactly say I was doing any kind of wind reading magic or that. I just noted my spotter, made the corrections and let fly. I do LOVE my 300WM. Had a REAL good day yesterday at Warcop, when are you getting that car? Also made some enquiries to Altcar, seems they shoot every sunday, quite a few saturdays, and some thursday evenings in the summer at 900 and 1000 to prepare for the National Championships. Could do with some company in the car.

Pete, shame on you trying to poison those poor people with 'Bambi' chunks;-) Bet they nearly choked hahahaha!

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 21:49:10 (ZULU)

Markwell: Have you used the Giles sling on the 870? African and American carries are unchanged, but the cross-chest is real handy.

CDC'
Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 23:50:01 (ZULU)

Guys & Gals,

I want to thank all competitors that took the time to write thank you notes to all the sponsors of SniperQuest03. I learned first hand this weekend while at the Tulsa Oklahoma gun show, just how far a short thank you note will go. I met Kasey Beltz, inventor of the Accushot monopod, and one of the supporters of SniperQuest. Mr. Beltz told me that he has supported numerous shooting events in the past, but NOT ONE PERSON (Competitors or Event Directors)had ever written him a thank you for doing so. Mr. Beltz stated that after SniperQuest03, he recieved several thank yous from the competitors, and that it made him feel really good about supporting SniperQuest because he knew for certain that the products he donated went to the competitors in the match, and he looks forward to SniperQuest04, said he might even come and visit!

Mr. Beltz is working on a project now that he is going to preview at the Shot Show, and guys, if it works the way he says it will,it is going to be a very good piece of sniper gear.

Once again, THANKS to all the competitors that took the time to write the Thank yous!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, October 20, 2003, at 00:01:25 (ZULU)

Nightforce Optics:

I've been eyeing a couple of the NightForce scopes at the local shop. Whats everyones experience or thoughts on these scopes? I was going to go with a Leupold VX-III LRT but these have really gotten my interest.

Scott Chapman
Monday, October 20, 2003, at 00:28:58 (ZULU)

Jeff H. (Safe?),

Get the dial. It's idiot proof and easy 'nuff to change the combo if need be.

The XM193 55gr. 223 ammo is not very accurate out to 500 yds. I was gettin 2 foot deviations with very little wind. Seemed to match the cam from Loopy out to 300 pretty well though. PJ has decided to be a Swat sniper now, instead of a Seal. He had first round hits at 1, 2, and 300yds today. With the M70 .223. He's hooked on long distance now for sure. On the way home he said, " Now I understand why you drive so far to all those matches."

Joe M.

Congrats on the baby girl. Glad everyone is OK.

John

Acehigh
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, October 20, 2003, at 01:51:23 (ZULU)

Very interesting thread over on the Long Range Forum. Intersting how something so simple can get so many people's panties in a wad....

http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1497

600 yard weekend at Butner coming up. Hopefully I can shoot this one. http://northstateshootingclub.com/Pages/Match_Fall_Trophy.htm

Scott,

For the money go with the Loopy and don't look back.

Jeff,

Electronics can go bad. Stick with the dial.

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Monday, October 20, 2003, at 02:28:13 (ZULU)

Mr. Whittington, Sir!

Maybe I've just been lucky, but every time I donate some of my products to a match, I get at least one thank-you note from somebody who got one off the prize table. It's a kick to get those notes!

Last match organizers sent me a nice t-shirt and hand-written thank you.

Couple of years ago, I put 10 of my gizmos on the table at Storm Mountain, with all the raffle items. There were more prizes than there were competitors, thanks to the generosity of the sponsors, so they had to do multiple drawings. I got complimentary raffle tickets as a Range Officer.

Damn if I didn't win a Mildot Master!

Look forward to linking up with you and Steve again, if I can ever get the bulldog through the rehab on his two new titanium knees.....

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Monday, October 20, 2003, at 02:35:02 (ZULU)

1000 yard cartridge;

Let's see if this can stir things up a little. No need in letting long-range.com have all the excitement.

For 1000 yard F-Class at sea level, which cartridge would you prefer and why? No CheyTac and wonder bullets please;)

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, October 20, 2003, at 03:46:25 (ZULU)

Hehehehe, I figgered one of the Hawgs would crank this up. If I could afford a 6.5/284, that's what I would use. I've seen nothing but good from it at every Butner match. Can't figure out why one of the factories won't make one.

Bolt
Takes Q's....Kicks A's in......., NC, - Monday, October 20, 2003, at 03:52:10 (ZULU)

Bruce SIR!

Your contributions and support of matches are above reproach sir! If you don't mind, hit me offline with your mailing address, I have something to send to you, to show support for what you have done/are doing.

You are welcome here at BadLands anytime you can get the chance to get this way Bruce. Loved the visit we had the last time you were by. Heck, since I am now retired, might just have to mosey out your way after this next basic class, if for nothing more than to have a cup of coffee with you.

Bobby Whittington