Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

Brodgers,

Even though I've seen that story replay itself over the years--it still pisses me off. But, in the over-arching strategy, we gotta deal with dirtbags so we'z can kick butt on the nastier dirtbags. The only consolation is the thumping yer bud gave. I can theoretically understand the vagaries of a myriad of cultures, but damned if I can "understand" why they do as they do...one of my buds got bounced outta Bos for thumping a 200lb guy who had just hospitalized his seven year old daughter on the street...which one of us woulda walked away from that? But, the bigger picture washes right over the "little things." Cultural sensitivety can only go so far. No matter how disciplined you think you are.

Man, I just smoked my thesarus...heh.

OK, 6.5x 284 is chosen for my 1st custom built riffle. Long action makes sense. I like the winney Mod 70 controled feed design for the action--good or bad idea???

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:00:37 (ZULU)

What difference is there between a 6.5x .308 and the .260 rem?

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:12:27 (ZULU)

".................... I'd say that 1000-2000 armed citizens who can ID likely firing points here and there would increase the odds of this punk dying in the act.........................."

It's Socialist Maryland...........no chance in hell. Whoever it is knows he's the wolf among the flock.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:15:36 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

I think you're on the right track about Terrorists, and Diversity in the MD/VA/DC area. The population is about 25% Middle Eastern ethnic background. I have been hearing folks saying that we will see the same type of attacks that have been going on in Israel. The captured videos showed the Al Queida Terrs training for just a scenario. They probably figured that they'd have much more success in some state with strict gun control than in another state with shall issue CCW laws.

Maybe one of our very own "LEO Rosterfarians" will end this guy's streak of success. I dont doubt for one minute that he is being hunted, and will be taken care of.

Best Regards,

Bill B

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
outback, ky, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:16:59 (ZULU)

My semi-annual post.

Been involved in all kinds of things lately, getting ready for the shoot at SMTC too.

Bruce, sorry to hear about folks out your way.

Montgomery County Shooter: ? odd indeed.

I got a call from some fella downtown DC today (202) area code, says he was referred to me by someone here on the DR. I called back a few times but no reply, perhaps tomorrow..... Any info on this fella is appreciated, just curious ahead of time.

My son's off to Germany directly, Air Defense Artillery, I guess his wife will follow up in a short while once housing becomes available.

Been wearing the barrel out on my M40A1 George Gardner rifle, shoots well but I sure miss the bipod. George has a 338 Lapua and a "Gumby" in either 243 or 260 in line for me. Should be a fair way to get rid of a few thousand dollars. George is in his new shop BTW, different address, same phone#.

Take care & be safe

v/r

Dave "Doc" King

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
-, -, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:17:48 (ZULU)

Palma Sight Set:

Don't know if anyone is interested but thought I would pass on the information. On eBay right now there is an auction going for a NEW Palma rear sight and Big Bore International front sight (Item # 1865715415). The auction ends in 2 days (Oct 9) current price is $195 + $5 for shipping. It's been there since Oct 2 with no bids so far. The picture seems to show the new stated condition.

I have no connection to the auction or items just passing on intel.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:43:46 (ZULU)

"Doc"...

Word is that the 202 guy is from one of the agencies looking for help.

Call him back and see if you can help put this little creep's lights out!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:49:28 (ZULU)

Brian,

What an endorsement!

Owe you a few cervezas and a good thick NM Black Angus Porterhouse if you'll ever come visit.

Showed your post to my bride. She said thanks and now wants to go to the mall to dispose of anticipated revenues......"retail therapy" in compensation for putting up with my lovable ass.

All the best,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:11:40 (ZULU)

Fatboy,

Oh crap now you tell me I'm a gonna be needin shoulder surgery!! Gee thanks a lot man! Guess I better sell off that hard kickin stick and get me a .22LR instead. Better yet a .177 song bird sniper rifle!! Then I'll have shoulder free worries till I keels over and feed the worms. :)) NAAAA, think I'll take my chances just to compete against you and that 6.5 you got. Since you finally got beat apparently, what was your score dude?? Better than a 186 I hope. ;) If your too embarrassed to put it up here, just go ahead and shoot me an email. Promise I wont post it here for all to see. ;) And quit reminding me about sliding around on your shooting mat, I had fun doin it!!

Nick the smart ass

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:31:01 (ZULU)

Results from match at Butner yesterday. At least I am improving over my last trip out. I got a 165-2(with an unexplained miss), 175-2 and a 179-2. I'm creeping up on 200 slowly but surely. My one and only other 1000 yard round from last year was 150-0. http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/files/pdfs/Oct5_02.pdf

It was great to shoot beside Master Cockerham and his bud. The Savage is getting too big for it's britches! My PSS pissed in it's pants when the Savage came out of it's bag. Jeeez!

I am officially volunteering to make an attempt to take out that mother fornicator up north. You LEO's and Feds from Maryland can email me. I'll pay my own way and provide my own ammo. I hate people that make mean with kids. Adults are bad enough, but now kids????

Wind hates me, nuff said. Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:43:42 (ZULU)

I removed this moronic remark by myself.

John

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:47:21 (ZULU)

Nick,

I shot a palma course of fire with optics and the 6.5(cheating) and shot a 440 - 15,(of a possible 450 - 45X) winner shot like a 446 - 17 with an iron sighted 308. Then we shot a 20 shot prone at 1K (any/any like everyone else)and I really messed my position up,, ended up hurting badly in my wrist while shooting agian, unlike the three previous palma line shoots which felt perfect. I shot a 192-6,(of a possible 200-20X) but dropped a 7 like my 18th shot,, I could have cried gravey tears... a 196 - 13 won any/any and 197 - ?x won f class. BOTH 6.5x284's ;))

I'm working on a repeatable position,, I think a three way butt pad would help. As it is now, I'm having to push the right cant out of the rifle with my shootng hand and it's making it hard to not yank the trigger... Newbie crap I'll need to work through... I think I found the trouble, which was moving the cuff too high on my arm which forced me too far under the stock combined with a slight bit of sling stretch, as it's a new sling,, first time used. I tighened up 1/2 a notch tonight and moved the hand rest back about 3/4" and it felt great dry firing, very natural. I'll see if that worked soon enough. I'm beginning to think that comfort is more important than an exact position,(both would be ideal),so long as I don't have to muscle the reticle on.

Come on out and shoot,, it'll give me a reason to shoot through the pain,,, beating you that is ;))How many match you think it'll be before you knck me off my thimble?

Joe M,

I'm looking for a used Win M70 LA now for my second 6.5x284. I ran across several but passed because I didn't like the bolt shroud. The hammer was not exposed, rather a little piece of sheet metal painted red slid out from under the enclosed shroud to indicate it's cocked. I'm unfamiliar with this bolt config on winchesters, and was told it was an early 70's production. I figured it's best to pass until I found one that's more like the stealth (looks like the M700 bolt shroud except the safety). Anyone have any info on these actions,, please let me in on it as I passed on one for $285 because it just didn't look right without an exposed hammer. Oh,, the bolt wasn't as nicely machined on these particular actions as most winch I've seen either. Could have picked up lots of mid 70's Remington LA's for around $300, but decided to wait on the winch.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:59:47 (ZULU)

Doc King: I hate to point out a man's flaws, but you have one that is too serious to overlook. You don't post enough. Hang around. I've got some questions to ask you about a .300 Win.

Good luck on your guided hunt. That's a head I'd like to put on the wall.

Joe: "OK, 6.5x 284 is chosen for my 1st custom built riffle. Long action makes sense. I like the winney Mod 70 controled feed design for the action--good or bad idea?"

For a dream deer riffle, the controled feed would be choice. For a precision rig, use the push feed.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 02:50:12 (ZULU)

I Think my scope is off since i do get 1/4 inch at 100 yards. Guess I'll just live with it until I invest in a real scope. Speaking of which, how exactly do drop compensators work? are they acurate when it comes to bullet drop? and how does one adjust the elevation when shooting at a target over thier limited drop range like the spingfield scopes that go out to 700 meters? Are drop compensators allowed in competitions? Also, I am looking for a good stock for my savage 10fp but mcmillen is a little expensive for me, i tried lockstock.com but they dont have any pictures for thier stockade stocks. Anyone know where i can find pictures on stockade stocks like a website or anything? thanks.

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
Ca, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 03:38:04 (ZULU)

maddog, the drop compensators work like gangbusters, but there are caveats. If you don't use the bullet it's designed for, and pushed to the prescribed velocity, it probably won't track like it's on rails. There are close exceptions. If you do your load development well, yes, they're great. On the better scopes, the drop compensator goes to 1000. How much further you want to go?

Joe and Doc, I agree with everything CDC just said entirely. Doc, you get the best wishes, hope you become the Jaegermeister. Joe, what he said 8p and you get a Hallelujah too.

Bill Moore, nobody has ever done that. Never. And you won't find it in the archives either. That's sarchasm, but said with a smile. Expect incoming e-mail.

Mike Miller, that's a sham. Let's screw an honest guy 'cause we got screwed by a dishonest guy. Yeah, that makes lots of sense. At least you got the guy in Florida to quit that racket.

John T Maroon, think again on the 223. Look at what Fackler has to say on the subject. He's got more experience with this kind of stuff than both of us put together could dream up. Or reread Medic Jim's post.

Bruce, your buddy is on my list as well.

---------------------

Mike T (RifleMike), YES, I'm looking for you. Please drop me an e-mail with a good address to respond to.

---------------------

Steve with the red-dress red-dress, hey I hear your pain with the Springfield optics. If I thought they'd hold up as well for me as they have some, I'd rush out and get me a gen 1. Same to be said of the sheep-herd. If's if's if's. When that reticle is built into a sturdy platform, it should shine. Let's hear what happens to yours, vicarious living and such.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 04:16:43 (ZULU)

OK, I have what is probably a stupid question but I could use a bit of help. I am putting together a new rifle (700 with a heavy barrel) and got a scope with a 56mm objective. Is there any way to determine the best ring height for this glass without just trying a set and miking it to see how much I have to add or subtract? Thanks

Duane <moed77@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 04:25:05 (ZULU)

=====

For Shooting schools, there are two that most of us can recomend without reservation... Kent Gooch's (look on the roster, and when you see his name in green, click it!), and the Badlands group... both are outstanding, and run programs around the year.

'lito

=====

'lito,

Thanks very much for the response. I checked out both their web sites and they all seems to have pretty good rifle classes. I live on the west coast(Washington state), so I try to find class close by.

But if good schools are far away, I just have to make the trip.

Thanks again.

Jessie <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 04:58:18 (ZULU)

What scopes do you all recomend for a good competition/hunting rifle? I was hoping for a mildot scope with Parallax Focus (think thats what its called) and maybe an illuminated reticle. I was looking at springfield armorys scopes but they are mostly drop compensated. any advise will be welcomed short of a nightvision scope (in this great liberal state they are called "sniper scopes" and is against the law to have one mounted on a rifle or knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession) at least acording to california DOJ http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ .

thanks

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 07:00:26 (ZULU)

Maddog,

http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm

Remember, cheap is far more expensive in the long run.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 11:07:52 (ZULU)

Maddog....

I use a LRM3 for both on coyotes. One on a .308 and one on a .243.

Fatdude....

Update on the pop up range match possibilities???? I know your workin hard on it. Keep it up.

Maryland dirtbag,

Bolt, I'm with you. When and where? I've got the time, or would make it for this circumstance. There's not much doubt as to why he chose that area. Full of political types, no threat of counter sniper action or even a passing motorist having a pistol, plenty of potential AOs' within easy driving distance, if and when he's caught he'll get a do-gooder, left wing, Public Defender that'll plea bargain everything down to murder 2 and walk in 10 yrs. Unless me and Bolt find him first. Rhetorically speaking that is. A politician is on this guys' list, he's just makin 'em sweat.

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about the loss in your community. Hope the trooper is better today.

"Doc"

I get those calls about once a year. Usually want me to join the National Republican Committee or send a donation to one of their cronys. If you get 'em to answer the phone it'll be a tape recorded message about some politician.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 11:33:11 (ZULU)

Terrorist targets- someone wondered why they're targeting kids/innocents. 1. Head of one of the Middle Eastern terrorist groups was once asked why they didn't go after the Isreali Army. Answer:" Why should we hunt tigers when there are so many sheep?" 2. The "intellectuals of the group" figure we owe Allah several million dead including 2-4 million kids.

In short, it's the definition of terrorist!

If/when this idiot gets nailed, it'll probably be dumb luck. Haven't talked to anyone in Montgomery County in awhile (Father-in Law used to live there), but they're more likely to have a handbook on establishing a "threat/coertion free dialoge" with the "troubled individual" than a HDW/HDR. Last Police Chief was required to have considerable experience in Community Policing and grant writing. DC cops have averaged an accidental discharge a month for 12 years, not very reassuring is it?

6.5x55 swede has done quite well as a target round. Probably doesn't need souped up, but about 10K psi headroom available in better rifle. Odd case head size if'n I remember right but probably within the tolerances of 0.473 bolt face.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 11:38:47 (ZULU)

Duane; Get the high rings and be done with it. You don't need extra high but just about everybody's High rings will probably work. 56 is a big scope.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 12:56:47 (ZULU)

Maddog; the 4.5X14X40 Leupold is the best for the money. Fagadabout the side focus, it's a really cool looking and works but you can do the same thing for $100 less and it works just as well and is calibrated in range. The side focus is slow to operate (get the parallex adjusted). This scope has plenty of range and usually works without sloping bases. Optics are excellent and the Mil dots are good also. Buy the latest generation Mil Dot's you can find. The old footballs suck the big one. A good way to go might be find a conventional cross hair and send it in to Leupold for a reticle upgrade. The clicks are accurate and positive. The 6.5X20 is probably pretty good also but you probably don't need the weight just to get some power you won't normally use.

brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 13:06:04 (ZULU)

Chris,

Watch out next match I can get to, I'll just grab that thar thimble an take it fer maself.:) Talk to ya later man, back to work.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 13:46:49 (ZULU)

Watched FOX news last night and they had a former DELTA sniper on asking him about the shootings in MD. He says its not a T only some want to be who is living out his little fantacy. I thought he did a good job. They were trying to push the fact that this was a trained sniper and he told them in short order that it wasn't and any clown with a AR and cheap scope could make these shots.

Joe,

DIfference between the 6.5x308 or the 260 is the shoulder angle. In the early stages before the 260 they formed the 308s down to a 6.5 I don't recall what the difference is but it isn't much. I have a 260 and have shot out nearly two of them. I love the round its everything a 308 is with less recoil and better wind drift. I would guess it to be really close to the ballistics of the 175s for dials and maybe a tad better on wind depending on the velocity.

Chris,

Your right on with your call on the 6.5x284 as far as barrels go. I talked to several guys and they were getting around the 2000+ mark for the HP rifles. I had JR bore scope mine after the D&L shoot last year and I was at 1500 then and it was just starting to show some throat wear at that time. I was careful to not get it to hot and that is where the difference is. He figured if I kept shooting it the same way it would go close to 3000.

I am sorry to say that since I gave it to number one son he doesn't share my thoughts on saving barrels. He used it this year at the D&L shoot and the Man on Man shoot. If your not familiar with these they eat up barrels big time. You shoot against another shooter on a series of targets out to whatever distance and the first guy to knock his down puts the other guy out. When I say speed shooting I mean fast.I ruined my 260 barrel one year doing it and haven't done it since.

Since he has won a couple of barrels he seems to think he doesn't need to worry about it but when he starts paying to have them put on he may change his mind(HA).

Gooch,

Shawn is at the Wilson Matches this week and he said its not even close to what it used to be. Sounds like things have really changed down there since Doland left. He said this year the first 3 days they stayed in motels instead of in the field. Must be the new army thing(HA).

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 14:02:50 (ZULU)

WR Moore, correct on all three counts. It's an odd head size, but is within standard face tolerances, and is a great target round.

Angrypuppy, if you check out the archives for long at all, there's a couple of scopes (four at the outside) that are emensely popular with this crowd. There's a reason. Think "Leupold". There's others, but the meat and potatoes answer is Leupold.

Jessie, we're kind of weak on major schools in the west. If you're going to fly, anywhere is just as close. There's a couple out here that I'd recommend, but from Washington, they're going to be quite a drive. You could always try and get a retired USMC Major in Oregon to give you some help. It's not like he didn't do that professionally. HINT!

Duane, hit me off line and I'll help.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 14:15:19 (ZULU)

Pat,

I missed the Delta guy on Fox News. But I agree with the comments he made about this shooter not being a sniper. It could be some terrorist, or sympathizer that is trying to make a name for himself.

Sad to say, but there are probably lots of people in the USA that support the terrorists, and their goals. I don't mean to defame everyone that is of Middle Eastern ethnic background who is here in the USA legally. I am referring to the thousands of illegals in the USA that just disappear annually. Several years ago I read a report that said over 500,000 people are supposed leave when their visas expire, and just disappear from the INS radar each year. That can't be good for the security of the nation.

The guy may not be a sniper, but he's been doing daylight shooting with witnesses to the shooting, and nobody has a clue as to who he is. This makes me think it's not some whacked out militia type living out his fantasy. I hope some LEO sniper ends this guy's career soon.

Best Regards,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 14:40:00 (ZULU)

Marine killed in Kuwait training exercise:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/08/kuwait.marines.shot/index.html

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 16:01:05 (ZULU)

Pat,

Just remember I said 'think' it would make it 3000 rounds(HA!) that was a good looking throat for the kind of abuse put thru it on that round. How many rounds you have thru it now?

Sweep,#

were you serious about 1200 rounds between rebarrels? You are now my new favorite customer...

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:02:02 (ZULU)

I've read numerous stories here of accuracy problems related to problems with the muzzle crown as well as machine marks at or near the muzzle.

Looking down the barrel (muzzle end) of one of my barrels with a light (held at an angle), I noticed what appear to be a series of concentric rings, spaced about 1/64 th of an inch appart.

The rings cannot be felt with the wooden end of a cotton swab, and they also are not visible when the cotton end of the swab is inserted down the barrel to reflect more light.

Is this a normal result of the barrel making / machining process?

Any help / advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:22:14 (ZULU)

Steve...

You didn't say who's barrel it was.

These marks are probably the orginal deep drill marks... common in factory bbls, but very badd that you can see them if you payed big bucks for it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:47:27 (ZULU)

Steve,

A) I've never seen a cotton swab with a wooden end.

hahah...

a 1/64" is 1/2 of a 1/32 which is 1/2 of a 1/16th so that would mean you would be seeing rings at around .016" separation. Just at the muzzle? concentric rings? how far down the muzzle? I don't know exactly, off of what youve given, what would cause concentric rings spaced .016" apart, to be honest. Could I ask if this looks like the rings are only on the lands, or in the grooves also.. that might help. If it's just off the lands, it could be reamer chatter, if it's the grooves, well, whole new ball game. You probably don't have a cut-rifled barrel, eh..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:51:13 (ZULU)

JR...

You ol' lassie chasin' booger, they DO make cotton swabs with long wooden handles (for medicine)... I have tons of them for working on guns and stuff.

(It's probably a Remington barrel ;)))

By the way... I saw your picture on the Border website... you're only half as ugly as Pat said! (HA!)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:00:07 (ZULU)

Gents, what he's doing so far isn't that hard. It really isn't. We train to beat observers actively looking for you and get expected shots off and get away clean. Some dude shooting out of a vehicle, particularly with a can, at a target that isn't expecting it using a single shot is almost always going to get away clean, unless he's just not lucky. Too many Americans haven't got a damned clue about the important stuff anymore. The basic martial skills are ignored or treated with derision among the civvies and the percentage of mil or former mil is really low, and that's counting all the cooks, bakers and candlestick makers who's closest combat experience was getting in a fight at the E-club. America is a population of sheep. I was getting a burger at the bar yesterday for lunch(with mustard!) and watching CNN. The ignorance I saw on the TV was disturbing. Two IL state cops were there getting lunch also, and they were just as clueless. They looked at me funny when I was laughing at the TV. I didn't tell them what I do because they'd probably haul me in for questioning. I'be heard some interesting speculation about ID of this guy. Hope it's true. Would be good for the US population to see that the Tangoes don't play nice and that they are perfectly willing to shoot men, women and children in cold blood. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:02:11 (ZULU)

Jr,

Let me run this past ya,,, I measure the throat at 100 rounds and used an OAL of 2.960" to stay off .015" off the lands. Last night I remeasured and found to stay .015" off I need to chase out to 2.985" OAL. So it's moved about .025" in roughly 350 rounds. Just how bad is this?

I haven't modified my load from the original 2.960" and the only points I've dropped were due to my piss poor wind reading ability and my nonsensical rifle hold while slung up. It is still wickedly accurate at distance. Also, I shoot it fast and furious when it's out so anyone considering this caliber, don't be discouraged by my results. I had it so hot Sunday afternoon I couldn't touch the barrel for about 30 minutes, and then it was too hot to hold for long. 30 rounds in 20 minutes is the norm for me.

So,, Should I be ordering a second tube now,, before he sends the order? If I'm gonna burn them down this quickly, I'll leave then stainless from now on.

'Litosan,

They make those little bastards with a thin metal shaft too, for punching a bore of a different ilk... OOOOOCH!!! Lots of you overseas guys know what I'm talkin' about I bet ;)) Can you say "Silver Bullet?"

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:06:30 (ZULU)

Catshooter, youse!!

hahah, ruined my whole premise, sometimes the ingenuity of the edit gets the better of you.. .... but I'm glad to see you're paying attention.. I apologise Steve, wasn't a completion of the statement, so disregard

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:09:22 (ZULU)

Reports on the news today that another expended case was found, this one in a wooded area near the school where the kid was shot. The site concensus is correct, task is not difficult, very few know what a gunshot sounds like. People are generally blind, deaf & dumb(in this case stupid rather than mute). This guy looks like he's picking areas close to Interstates for fast debussing of the area.

The media calling them "sniper" killings grates on me but I figure I'm a lot better off locally if I just keep my mouth shut. Wish I'd seen the bit by the Army dude.

Marine training incident-according to latest, 1 each KIA,WIA by a couple of civvies(?) in a pickup truck. Other Marines participating in the training exercise reportedly solved the problem in the indicated manner.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:36:05 (ZULU)

What I meant to finish to say is:

it's hard to tell what is going on with a cotton swab, even the wood end, other than with a burr on the crown. (the sentence originally was: I've never seen a cotton swab with a wooden end or not that that the layman could use in a way which would definitively troubleshoot what is going on in the barrel. eyes n' gauges.)

'lito, doesn't have to be a Remmy barrel, could be a button barrel depending on the looksee of these concentric rings. If they are evenly spaced rings, then you can be sure nothing was driven into the bore afterwards, it was probably done in process.

Chris:

I can't give you a definitie on that. My mate is shooting a 6.5 x 284 and in 100 rounds, the throat has moved almost .010"(I'm going to get youse two in touch, there is a lot you must talk about).(plus this is a rifle which was chambered here, you could get different results on a rifle chambered there) I don't likie but sometimes it doesn't seem to present a significant problem, sometimes.. I'll tell you a short story, Jack Krieger won a competition(could have been a 10 ft shoot for all I know) with only 4" of rifing in his barrel, and it weren't a pistol, that's a lot of freebore eh... all I know is it shot until it didn't.

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:41:18 (ZULU)

JR,

I feel much betterer now,,, ;)) I think if I wasn't shooting prone matches with this rig I could double the barrel life. Every 6.5x284 shooter I know, who shoots prone matches says 1200 to 1400 rounds. I can live with that. That's a barrel a season. I split that between 2 rifles and the next best thing will be out before I burn them up. Besides,, barrels are a consumable product,, like bullets and powder. They need to be budgeted into the mix early, I just don't wanna get RUM life from a Fag barrel.

KenM,

You ever take the measurements on that 300WM of yours? I wonder if the errosion is on par with the FagMag?

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:47:29 (ZULU)

Fackler wound ballistics- spent a rainy afternoon on the man's website a couple of years ago and found some interesting inconsistancies. Those wishing to trash the .223 on Facklerite basis have a problem: the impact velocity. The doc's literature on the .223 is replete with secondary wound tracks and the the positive effects of the fragmentation of the projectile and the resultant increase in "stopping power". Very, very different from his attitude on handgun ammo. And yes folks, the ball ammo fragments as well as tumbles. You don't generally see mention in the literature but besides tumbling end over end, the bullet generally tries to maintain it's rotation. So it's kinda rotating about the point while the base comes forward.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 20:01:48 (ZULU)

Fackler - smackler

The discussion regarding "how fast" a round puts you in the grave is totally irrelevent when related to unarmed innocents. The .223 is deadly...a highly stabilized, 62 gr round 500 yards from the muzzle of a 14.5" ,1:7 twist barrel may not fragment and incapacitate immediately, but a center mass shot at that range in the middle of some third world country is really, really bad news.

The Maryland shootings are reported to be from ranges we would not call "long"...Anyone notice the press photo on the CNN webpage of the site where the woman was hit while sitting on a park bench? There is a solitary, well defined hole in the plate glass window behind the bench... trans-cranial intact round in .223? Hmmmm. We still thinking short range?

Any info yet on the two casings recovered...how far from the impact site? Wonder what the shooters choice of firing position looked like...good cover, good exfil route?

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 20:37:36 (ZULU)

Ken,

I just read your post about the MD shooter. I must agree with you about the American public in general. I have serious doubts that even the "average" shooter/hunter would have a clue what was going on if they were witness to one of these "sniper" shootings in MD.

For years there was discussion about attacks on US soil by terrorists, and most people chose to ignore the warnings. Now a year after 9-11-01 it's just about as bad. Daschle, and his comrades are more concerned about their power base than the security of the nation.

I heard they think this guy is using Isuzu delivery truck with a box on the back. Looks like a mini U Haul truck. It would make a good vehicle to shoot from. Put in a small window, install a shooting bench, and use a can on the rifle. Nobody would ever notice it. Could even be a team effort. Driver/Spotter, and the shooter. Almost nobody has a clue what a suppressed rifle shot sounds like. By the time they figure it out, the driver is hauling ass out of the area. But I doubt if the guy is shooting from inside a truck since I hear that the investigators have been finding empty rifle brass. Unless the shooters are intentionly tossing it out the window. Haven't heard any news about any more shootings today. Maybe the investigators are close to getting him.

Later,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 20:45:41 (ZULU)

John,

Sent you an email. No attachments.

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 21:35:13 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

"Dirtbag with gun" (I refuse to call him a sniper) shot from a wooded rise off the school at (about) 120 to 140 yards (I was talking on my cell phone during the report and didn't catch it all). It seems he departed his transportation at least this once to make his shot. I hate the targeting of civilians as a primary target. Just absolutely despise the scum who would do that. I don't care a damn about your reasons for it...nothing excuses it. I hope a rookie cop gets lucky and spots this guy. I hope the nervous young hero in blue botches his shot badly and blows the balls of the perp before following it up with a miss to the abdomen and another miss to the Tibula and..and...hell, I'd pay money to spot for ya Mr. Bolt, but expect your first range call to put the first one in his knee cap. Followed by corrections designed to cripple with high levels of pain...

I can't stand cowardly scum shootin' civilians. Shooting a kid in front of his family is below my ability to disparage.

Next time I'll tell ya how I REALLY feel about this.

De Oppresso Liber;

never, never take your fight to the non-combatants...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 22:11:11 (ZULU)

Maryland;

Let's all get together and have a counter-sniper match in MD. We could have blind draw teams and work different areas. We could have a new HDR for the winning team.***This is fantasy for anyone who may use this against us.***

Maybe that dude up there is mad because he hasn't gotten his African bank money yet. If he wants to shoot people, why not those scam-mail slimes.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 22:26:23 (ZULU)

Want to have a look at Montgomery County?

Here a site that'll let you look around.

http://gis.co.mo.md.us/gis/ImageViewer/index.asp?aYear=1998

For best use get the plug-in and change to custom image size.

There are a few other places in the U.S. that have free maps of this quality on-line.

No return call from Mr 202

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Somewhere, MD, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 23:38:59 (ZULU)

Chris and others interested in the 6.5-.284

If you look at this past weekends match results for Camp Butner, you will see a score of 599 for a gentleman by the name of Bob Crone. He and his wife shoot the 6.5-.284. His wife didn't have a bad score either. I am going to stick with the .308, but the 6.5 is nothing short of impressive. The guy that was shooting with Bolt was shooting a .300 WSM and was really doing well also. His rifle was a Winchester action with a 30" K&P barrel. He was slinging 190 SMKs at some ridiculous velocities!

Bolt,

Can you remember anything about that raffle...I mean ....rifle;-))

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
NC, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 23:44:42 (ZULU)

These types are inevitably cowards.

Look at the victims. Women, children, people in condition white that can't possibly fight back.

Confronted by someone bigger and badder he'll run. If he can't get away, he'll shit his pants and probably kill himself or make the cops do it. No way to know for sure but like I said early on, bet he ain't no terr.

Got friends in that area. They are hunting the prick.

In the truest sense of the word.

You can probably bet fellas, that he's been here or 15.com before. At least a time or two.

That's why I seemed maybe more than a little preachy in my early days here.

Fucking Whitman wannabe.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 23:46:36 (ZULU)

Brian,

you ever figure out how you're gonna set the AWP up? Scope, tube length, etc...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 00:12:16 (ZULU)

Jessie in Seatle,

Check out Surgical SHooting Inc. They are in Pomeroy, WA about 200 miles west of you. www.surgicalshooting.com

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 00:25:29 (ZULU)

Youz guys that are looking for Al O. can find him over on:

http://scripts.xtremeaccuracy.com/?

... he has an e-mail address there with his posts.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 01:37:12 (ZULU)

Brian: You deal with these geeks. I don't. Your insight is better than mine, but I can't imagine that one of these incest children would want to hang here. This place is wall-to-wall with law and order types. We have wives (ex or otherwise), kids, lives and talent. If this guy is a home-grown psycho, he's a useless little jerk-off loser.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 02:41:49 (ZULU)

Dan,

Personally, I think you nailed his profile EXACTLY.

A useless little jerk off loser.

He probably wouldn't post here. Just visit ... and learn.

Again, I may be 100 % wrong but that is what my gut told me from jump.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 02:56:52 (ZULU)

What's the hold up on the RIFFLE RAFFLE...? I'm going out of town pretty soon for about 12 days. I DON'T want to miss it. Damned money's burning me up!

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!! - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 03:17:24 (ZULU)

Society can be likened to animals around a flock of sheep.

Most people are the sheep. Content to be left alone and go about their daily lives in peace.

The wolf (criminal) will prey on the sheep with impunity at every opportunity. Usually singalling out the weak and helpless of the flock.

The sheep dog (cop, soldier, citizen that fights back) would not dream of hurting the sheep and will sacrifice his life to protect the sheep.

... course then there's 'Lito who screws the sheep.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddyy, baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.

Just kidding Cat Daddy.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 03:21:25 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been awhile since I last posted...I'll try to make some comments, etc.

First, on our east coast "shooter". I won't deem to call him a trained professional. Personally, I don't think he's an Al Queda or other type "terrorist". My gut tells me he's a punk who thinks he's cool by "doing" others. No pattern to the shootings and no major targets of note...just my .02 on that one.

On the 6.5 X .284. I certainly like mine. Give me a holler and we can chat about it. Those that use it, love it. Still, I stump for a .308 as an all around gun. Why stress about it, GET BOTH!

Still no deer. Have discovered the injury I suffered last month is causing major problems with even light weight hunting rifles. Started weight training last week. Will see if that helps.

Broke out my M98 .35 Whelan Imp. Elk killer. Season is next month, if I can get days off to correspond with the season. Being new on the job certainly has it's drawbacks.

The new Browning HP in .40 S & W is a WINNER. MY practical from the box is 100% with anything I stuff in it. Tracks just as nicely as the 9mm version, too. Perhaps, I'm just old fashioned, but dammit I like steel weapons...this one is definetely worth your looking at if you are seeking a serious personal defense weapon.

All for now. More when I return from work tomorrow eve, late.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 03:26:10 (ZULU)

Jessie:

In ref. to shooting schools, I went to "Front Sight" in Pahrump Nev. last mo. it's 50mi. west of Las Vegas and basically out in the middle of nowhere but an outstanding school with quality instructors (off duty LEO's and former Marines). I attended the 3 day CCW course but they also had a hunters course and a tactical rifle course as well. If you would like to contact them for info, you can call them at 1 800 - 987 - 7719 or check out their web at www.frontsight.com Hope this helps;-)

Daniel <Savage10fp@yahoo.com>
ca, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:02:32 (ZULU)

Capitol Area Shootings,

I just heard (CBS TV News out of NYC) that they found a casing at 140yds. from vic in PGC school shooting, along with a playing card - written on it was "I am God" or something similar.

A change of M.O. in an attempt to throw off persuers, or a copycat getting started? MCPD reached back a couple of weeks (I think) to a shooting at a liquor store, evidently bullet deflected by store window.Target OK. Caught part (too bad!) of an interview with ATF Agent assigned, remarked something about "shooter doesn't have to use the same rifle, 'ya know). WTF was that all about?

Detective Sain,

I seriuosly doubt that whoever it is that is committing these reprehensible acts has been on this or any other legitimate firearms site. Anything's possible, but this one's highly improbable! If it's Terrs, than we already know where their knowledge came from. If it's a sicko pissant loser, chances are better than even that he got his info about much of this from similar types, probably while incarcerated. LE (and you) already know that the slammer just provides entrance to the post-grad work in the Pen.

LE probably is already well ahead of me, but a good place to start looking might be among the criminal element with a military background and a dishonerable discharge. DC area is full of former military people, and not all of them are the good guys!

Brian,

Alot depends on whether they're our sheep or their sheep.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:14:58 (ZULU)

Brian Sain,

I'll agree that it is a possibility that the dirtbag lurked here and elsewhere...but I'll give ya odds it ain't so. If it ain't a sympathizer of tangos or an outright tango--then it's a little shit who grew up on video games...I hear there's even one out where the player drives around shootin pedestrians for points (hmmm).

I do not allow video games in my house...drives my boy crazy sometimes, but I think these things de-sensitize young minds to violence and killing. Could be the issue here...but I really hope not--cus the lefties will blame the gun. The discipline aspect got me thinking "Tango" though. He missed once, and moved out. No follow up, stuck to a plan. Sound like a psycho or vid-junkie? Nah, "feels" like a method to terrorize a population. The lack of a pattern is a pattern in itself--he(?) is targeting a very broad swath of society...and the effect is "nobody is safe." With son of sam, chickies (PC my ass) wore blond wigs--cus the pattern was brunettes. Here, anybody and everybody is a target...very much a pattern in my eyes. A pattern of terror. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Joe M. (and I wish you were up there bro--they could use some professional assistance:)

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:17:04 (ZULU)

Alan,

Roger, no disrespect taken. I was brief in that bit about innocents being targeted. Take gravity bombs in WWII--tried to hit the factories, but oops. Sh!t happens...no problem. Live next to a terr camp and take your chances...just dumb. But, to take aim at an unarmed kid for the purpose of making the rest of the town afraid is terrorism, no matter which side you are on. Carpet bombing Baghdad will not make us happy avengers...but selectively knocking out key sites will--regardless of the collateral damage. (heh). I look at it as my enemy targeting my family to break my will to fight. I promise you it would have an undesirable effect on my fightin' spirit! Tis a dark and dangerous path to choose. The laws of land warfare are our modern code of chivalry. And they allow for reprisals in kind, of all things. Fine, if that ever comes to pass, pick someone else to carry out the mission. I won't initiate fires on civilians. Ever. I said initiate. If they initiate, they be armed combatants. Big difference. But as they say, I will know the difference when I am looking at the difference. Can't really get into all the circumstances here. We would need lotsa beer to cover that ground! But bottom line is Hamassholes, Al-queerbaits and the ilk run from a fair fight and pick on the defenseless--and that really is cowardice at it's worst. I hate these guys with a passion. In case you were wonderin'...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:41:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of being (more or less) forced to destroy an entire city along with its civilian population because the enemy forces us to do so. Things like garrisoning troops in civilian homes, installing AAA batteries on non- combatants rooftops, turning military facilities into civilian shelters, child suicide bombers, snipers operating from peoples living rooms, storing arty, SAM's, other materiel among food stores, etc.

I speak from two tours worth of experience. Civvys forced to push bicycles laden with arms and ammunition across Laos and Cambodia. Others forced into slave labor laying pontoon bridges to replace the ones that we lost aircraft destroying three days before. SAM sites in the middle of refugee camps, next to schools, Hospitals, etc. Little children as Sappers, innocent villages by day, food and weapons depots by night. My first tour was interdiction on the Trail. A year later I'm back playing EWO in an F-105F WW. You get used to it. First you drink a bunch. If you make it home you still drink a bunch. But you gotta do it. What they taught me at all of those schools in the States didn't go far enough. They also never really told me exactly what they expected of me along those lines. But I'm not whining, you go, you learn, you do, and if God and luck is with you, you come home.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:24:42 (ZULU)

Joe, how do you REALLY feel on the topic? Personally, I like your rants. I'd say you should run for public office, but I have far too much respect for you to insult you that way. Still, it would be an enjoyable daydream. While passing the capitol building, I informed my son "that's where the bad men work". Pretty building, disgusting occupants.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:33:39 (ZULU)

Hi Gooch,

Thanks for the good pointer. Taking class from Surgical Shooting actually is my first choice. I did take the LRSS class from Surgical Shooting last October and were very exciting about taking additional class. But they get the fleet protection training contract from Navy and it seems that the company grows quickly. I called and e-mailed several times but they don't have any LR rifle class later this year. So I am looking for other place to get my training.

Daniel,

Thanks for the information on FrontSight. I knew that they are pretty good on handgun and carbine, but don't how they are in terms of LR rifle. I will get to their web site to take a look.

Jessie Chang <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, 98155 - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 06:15:31 (ZULU)

ALAN, Joe, and others...

I think you guyz are giving this "Shooter" too much credit by assuming he is ex-military, or some other trained shooter.

Hitting a 20"x40" target at 100 to 140, or even 200 yards, with an open sight, "off the rack" rifle is no big deal... the average person can do it by reading the instructions that came with the gun.

Biggest odds are that he (them) are late teens to mid twenties, socially broken people with few or no friends, and bitter at the world that has "done them wrong", with little or no experence with firearms...same type as the Columbine shooters.

I doubt that it is towel heads... they would stand out like a red flag in that area... and by now, would be watched by everyone. They couldn't get a golf bag to their car/truck, without being surrounded by the possie.

I got a scary e-mail from someone on this site today... if he lived in the DC/Meryland area, I would drop a dime on him in a Ney Yawk second... there sure are some broken puppies out there :(((

Brian... DUDE!!

I gave up sheepies two years ago. Took the 12 step program with a few other Rosterfarians, and I'm sticking with it.

The hard part is that the North American. long legged, double breasted, Chickadees can run Faaaaaaaaast!! ;))

'lito (why am I on the Roster at 3:00 AM????)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 06:50:12 (ZULU)

On the dipshit in maryland, I hope they fry that loser. On the videogames note on how they desturb young minds into losing track of reality and how shooting people really hurts. Ive been ranting on that for years, funny when your a teenager and say those things your peers tend to think your nuts. I have this one video game names Grand Theft Auto 3, first time I played it all I could think was ,"they have to take this off the shelf." I think it is very posible it could be a young idiot who wants to play the "badguy" that the population has been idolizing alot lately. Just like those colombin kids. Times like this I wish they still taught good morals in school, prayer, and pledging to the flag in school. But being in this good ol liberal state, a paper dog has a better chance of chasing down an asbestos cat through the hotest fires of hell than any of that happening.

Thanks for the tips on the scopes by the way. I am going to have to go with something cheap though seeing that the local EMS agancy pays me minimum wage so i will have to look around for deals or just deal with what I got, not alot of safe or legal places to shoot long distances around here anyays.

Can anyone tell me about this ammo i picked up today? the box says MATCH from lake city army ammunitions plant. its from 1966 lot LC 12060 M118 173grains velocity 2550 fps. Is ammo this old anygood? i also got some from 65.

Sorry for such a long post by the way, one final question and I promise to shut up for now :) Is there any prescision shooting schools in southern california or any "sniper" matches like the ones i read about on this site? cant seem to find much around here but then again, im only 20 and my folks finnally let me stay out past the street light ;) .

Thanks alot.

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 08:13:21 (ZULU)

'litosan, if you're still up,

While testing some .243 ammo yesterday I noticed a significant amount of muzzle flash (daytime). Powder was 44.0 grs. Varget. 600 Rem. short barrel. W748 and W760 were a lot less noticable, almost non existent. Is this a function of barrel length and powder charge? Or just powder charge, or a Varget characteristic I've never noticed in any other caliber? I could see it clearly thru the scope on follow thru. Over 25 rds. all virtually the same flash signature. It reminded me of Fed. American Eagle .223 out of the Bushy. Very bright.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 11:55:06 (ZULU)

John...

Don't worry about the flash. Remember that ball powders have flash suppressants in them... and Varget has very little "Stuff" in it. That's why it looks green, instead of black.

Angrykid...

If you look at the history of sick killers, you will find that most of them were boy scouts, went to church, and were otherwise "perfect" children... so don't ask the schools to get into the morals business cuz I garrentee you won't like the outcome. I don't want the school system to teach my rugrat to pray, and who to pray to. And I DON'T want the schools to ban praying by anyone.

Video games? Then all kids should be jailed on the spot. But this is the same argument the anti-gun (anti-everything) folks use... "If there weren't any guns (alcohol, video games, porn magazines, sports cars, Bikini swim suits), then these people wouldn't commit...". Also bullshit!

But if you look at the average kid in school who wears a Harley Davidson tee shirt, cuts up a bit in school, flips the teacher the "bird"... these kids never wind up doing this kind of crazy killing... Me, I worry about the kids that are too nice, that are praying all the time, and are wrapped up tight.

Let the schools teach academics, and have parents be responsible for their kids.

And by the way... what the hell are YOU so angry at??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 12:26:05 (ZULU)

Brian,

Really liked your sheep analogy. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Who said that? My hats off to you and all the other LE types looking out for the sheep.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 12:46:33 (ZULU)

Ref: Kids & Video Games

In the book “On Killing” the author makes a persuasive argument that the natural inhibition against killing is worn down by constant exposure to violence in movies and video games. Many of the same “Skinnerian” conditioning processes take place while a person plays violent video games as take place in military training but without the controls or constraints. I would suggest this book as required reading for anyone trying to understand the problem of violence in our society.

Ref: Glint

I received a document from the National Technical Information Service yesterday. It is titled, "Assessment of Glint Hazard to Soldiers". Pretty good reading but more important is my discovery of a huge resource for technical publications on just about any subject you can imagine. This is all public domain stuff but would be considered by some as real "secret squirrel" material.

Most of the material available addresses "off-axis glint" and the ARD pretty much takes care of that issue. My search is for countermeasures to address the "on-axis glint" resulting from active counter surveillance/counter sniper technology.

If anybody out there has any tips drop me an e-mail.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:04:22 (ZULU)

Fellas,

Don't be so quick to discount the video game thing. I think there is something to it. Buy a copy of Col. Dave Grossmans "On Killing" and also "Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill". www.killology.com Good reading.

I have spoken with several kids at work that have told me the Auto Theft game referred to earlier made them want to go out and kill somebody so they quit watching it.

I am talking about ten year olds here guys.

In several incidents where kids have shot people and were standing there with a smoking gun, when someone yelled at them to "STOP !" They did so and lowered the weapon. Kind of like "GAME OVER".

It at least warrants a little reading before judgement is passed and the bullshit flag is thrown. I see both sides though. My boy 'lito made good points as did others. But then, my Dad has had a Harley all his life. Has three now.

Anybody here like Lynyrd Skynyrd ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:07:31 (ZULU)

>Anybody here like Lynyrd Skynyrd ?<

Gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister....

Brian,

Anyone who doesn't like 'em shouldn't be allowed to post anymore :)).

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:19:33 (ZULU)

...W_H_O_A.....

Chief Moose of the Maryland Police just gave the news media and all the "talking heads" that "used" to be good cops, FBI and CIA a real ASS chewing at his 7am news brief !!!!!

He told the media and the retired guys that if the people wanted "them" to run this investigation, he'd be back at 9am for another briefing and he'd let the people of Montgomery Co. vote on it....If they (the people) voted for the press, etc. his people will quit the search and go on to "other" police business that needs to be done.....if not, shut the hell up and quit interferring with his Dept. and let him and his people do they're job.......

....a very impressive ass chewing, done with much dignity and a true sense of heart and urgency considering what is happening in his AO !!!!

If you can get to see the entire briefing, its worth listening to....

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:55:15 (ZULU)

My personal feeling now is that this little sucker is getting cocky. He leaves a tarot card with "I am god" on it. How stupid is that?? Just being speculative, he's superstitious and now is cocky so may start taking bigger chances. I'd expect his rate of shots to increase as he gets bolder. And mistakes will come with that, such as leaving a calling card which tells a little about himself.

As far as watching out for the nice sweet innocent kids in school. I'll go along with that as well. These are the ones that knew they could actually get away with stuff simply because the grown-ups wouldn't suspect them. I was one of those kids but I kept my nose clean, didn't want to take the chance of getting caught doing something stupid. Plus I learned how to use my brain. :)

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:56:26 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Unwanted attention for SC. This was posted to an e-mail list I'm on. Pardon my not reformatting it, but you can go to the URL if ya want it cleaned up.

Don

>From the New York Daily News --

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/25635p-24192c.html

Click mouse, then pull trigger by Michael Daly

'One Shot - One Kill!" Those words welcome all who visit

www.snipercountry.com, one of a half-dozen Web sites devoted to sniper

enthusiasts. This is a subculture the firearms industry has helped foster in

recent years to bolster dwindling gun sales.

"If you run ... you'll only die tired!"

The mow-'em-all-down daydreams that accompanied the now-banned assault rifles

are as dated as Columbine. The new fantasy in the marketplace is of a single

deadly shot fired from afar with a sniper rifle. The gun companies'

motivation becomes clear in the Sniper Country site's chat area.

"My budget of $1,000-$1,500 includes the rifle, optics and any

coatings," a

visitor named Brian says. "But spotting scopes, cleaning gear, drag bags

and

the like don't have to fit in that budget window - my wife isn't as diligent

about checking the workshop for unfamiliar extras."

A visitor named Bain says, "I love my Springfield Super Match M21, but you

can't get one for $1,500."

A visitor named Scott reports, "Even a custom-built Service Rifle will only

run you around $1,110 if you shop around."

The question is what to do with a sniper rifle once you buy one. A visitor to

the site named Condor asks:

"How do you practice sniping? Certainly, you can't go around picking off

people that are several hundred yards away. ... I mean, it's just not

socially acceptable. People will complain. The police will get involved.

You'll need a lawyer. It's just not worth it, using your fellow humans as

live targets just to gain some quality, meaningful sniper practice."

Somebody outside Washington has decided otherwise. That has not stopped Sniper

Country and other such sites from offering helpful sniping tips, excusing

themselves with disclaimers that the info is intended only for law-abiding

citizens.

"What about in an urban environment?" a Sniper Country visitor

wonders. "How

do you estimate distance to a target? Well, if you did a thorough

reconnaissance of area of operation, you ought to know the distance between

telephone poles, how long city blocks are ... all sorts of pieces of

information that can give you accurate data in setting up a shot."

Yet another visitor, this one named Ed, suggests that while "movers are a

pain," humans are generally easier than other moving targets.

"People are a lot simpler as you can make a good estimation by the way they

move," he notes.

Ed recommends a simple technique to compute the target's speed involving two

reference points and a "handy-dandy $3 Wal-Mart sniper calculator." He

provides a simple formula for converting from feet-per-second to

mile-per-hour.

"It is more dramatic to say 'I shot a 7 mph runner' than 'I shot a 12 fps

mover,'" Ed notes.

Ed then furnishes an equation involving target speed, bullet velocity and

distance to intended impact.

"At 100 [meters], a 3 mph walker requires about a 7-inch lead ... a slow

walker is half that, a jogger double and a track star triple," Ed notes.

hope this made sense. Any questions, just shout."

A visitor named Pat writes: "Thanks for the info on the lead of moving

targets!! I guess it all comes down to practice but as someone stated, how do

you practice it when you don't have a mover available?"

Lessening gunshot spark

The site also offers advice on concealment, including ways to minimize

giveaway muzzle flash.

"I believe that most military ammo has a flash/flame retardant," a

visitor

writes. "Does any factory ammo seem to show less than another? Enquiring

minds want to know!"

There are links to more than 100 companies that profit by selling guns or

sniper-related gear, including a firm called AWC Systems Technology that

makes nifty silencers and Mildot Enterprises, which peddles a calculator that

quickly computes the "correction necessary to compensate for bullet drop

and/or wind drift."

One handy section called "Selecting a caliber/bullet for Urban

Sniping"

includes a discussion of the .223-caliber bullet favored by the sniper

outside Washington.

"At ranges urban sniping is done that .223 hits hard," writes a

visitor named

Rogers, who recommends a particular brand that "will 'pardon my French'

Jelly

the brains of anything within 200 meters."

The bullet is also a topic of discussion on a sister site,

www.snipersparadise.com. A visitor named Switca offers, "Personally, a .223

bullet would not be my first choice."

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:01:12 (ZULU)

Hey guys!

First off, I would like to say thank you for all of your insight, restraint and respect for the role of sniping. It is a humbling proffession and NOT for the faint of heart. My salute goes out to all of the grunts who have fought and died for my freedom and the freedom of my family. Thankyou!

Now, I am not sure if you guys have talked about the idiot, freak and just plain stupid waste of flesh who is stalking the northeast. I know you guys have given some severe *ss whoppins to those who have not taken this craft seriously. How do you guys feel about what this maniac is doing? Will his actions have any affect (or any at all) on the freedom you guys have on sniping? If you were the guy who catchs him, what would be your response?

Again, I am truly grateful to those salty devil dogs out there who have walked the battlefield in defense of our way of life. May my generation be forever in your debt and those friends that you have lost. Thanks guys for your time and response, if you wish to do so!

Rick Reboiro <reborich@isu.edu>
Pocatello, Idaho, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:38:27 (ZULU)

This link was emailed to me...

Had to share it with you all.

After intense expert analysis, the major media outlets have decided the following regarding Osama Bin Ladens current status.

(click my name for the link)

http://www.scandal.org/images/photos/big/deadoralive.jpg

Well no shit....

Oh yea and about Mr Daly the writer of that NY Daily News article...

How about the more eleoquent and tactful of the Hogs, email him and explain where he's wrong.

"Michael Daly is the first American-born in his family. He attended 16 grammar schools. He graduated Yale University. He started journalism at Flatbush Life. He has published one novel, "Under Ground." He lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two daughters.

Email: mdaly@ edit.nydailynews.com"

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Well done? Rare!, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:41:53 (ZULU)

shortly after i joined. i emailed the web master asking him to take a look at the free boards from www.suddenlaunch.com They can be set up so you have a general public section and a private section that when non members enter they cant even see there there unless you have an open public section like request to join . once it is set up this way you can have sub sections , ie , reloading , gear , rifles , competition or what ever you want .The boards look very plain when you look at them on there site , background color frame and border color and font color can all be modified Also moderators can move posts to proper places and edit and delete content that is unacceptable. Being as firearms in general are such a sensitive topic in general i thought thoose boards would be better. he never wrote back

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:42:51 (ZULU)

On video games desensitizing people to violence: Paul notes an important point on the confusion of correlation with causation. Ice cream eating is closely correlated with drowning. Either can be closely predicted given the other. So, what causes what?

A few years ago some ding-bat congresswoman showed that increases in taxes on beer was closely correlated with an improving economy. She wanted to increase taxes on beer as a means of spurring the economy.

In a word: Bullshit. People go to the beach and eat ice-cream when the weather turns warm. Some of the beach goers drown. The beer thing is a very mild coincidence.

But, consider this. A few years ago my wife bought me the video game "Doom." It made me run a gamut of emotions similar to those you feel reading a good novel. It had the feel of running a good simulator. When I stopped playing, I had the feeling of waking from a particularly realistic and gruesome dream.

The effect on me wore off. But what effect could total immersion in that have on some kid who was raised by L.L.Cool J., Steven Seigel, and these horrible slasher movies?

For my part, I am not willing to reject out of hand the idea that those things desensitize young skulls-full-of-mush to the suffering of others, and present "mowing 'em down" as an appealing option.

I just read Don Smith's post. Some of the irony and cop-talk used here sounds pretty stark when taken out of the context of the conversation and without an understanding of the people doing the talking. A creative and unscruplous newspaper hack could present this group as unfavorably as he could a chat room for child molesters.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:46:10 (ZULU)

Anyone know the turn around time for repairs on Springfield scopes? And has anyone who had one repaired had to send it back more than once? More than twice? When I get it back I will put it back on the M1A but if its breaks a second time I will put it on my Savage 10FP in 223. I may become a Loopie or nothing user if it breaks more than once. I have had a Vari-X II since 1984 with no problems on my deer rifle. I probably only put 1K rounds threw it but it has held up nicely.

The book "On Killing" is a very good read. I don't know about the apart dealing with sex though. I can hardly pee while being stared at muchless preform well in the rack with kids in the room. Oh, the book "Lost Son" about the police commissioner of NY seems to be a good book as well. He has a great management style.

HDR< good seeing you are still hanging around here.

Nick, Skynard sucks. I hate "Free Bird" and would like to destroy every copy of the song ever produced. Now, Molly Hatchet, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Jimmy Hendrix, Bob Sieger,those guys rock. But I can listen to Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, Haggard, Conway Twitty, John Anderson, Vern Gosden, Hank and Hank Jr., and Waylon too. Welcome to "Music Country".

Dirty Steve, Out.

Oh, Riffle Raffle. double Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:48:26 (ZULU)

Don Smith...

What is the URL of that POS?

JT...

You've been here, what?... a week, and you want to change the format?

Do you think the people that run this site are soooooo stupid that they don't know what's around in the way of software? Go read the archives and get with the program...

We LIKE this format... it has been discussed many times by the regulars, and everyone likes it this way.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:56:07 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I just emailed Mr. Daly. Here is what I sent him. Hope I wasn't out of line.

Mr. Daly,

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Nick Gebhardt and I am a regular reader of the web site mentioned in your article, Snipercountry.com. I am a Sergeant in the Mississippi National Guard and have four years active duty. During my active duty time I was deployed for 6 months to Bosnia. I love my country as much or probably more than you do. I am involved in the shooting sports and find that it is great fun and very difficult to be competitive.

Some of the statements that you referenced in your article were taken out of context. You would have to be a regular reader and understand that most of the regular posters on that site have met or at least talked to each other at one time or another. There is a term called camaraderie, I'm sure you may have heard of it, that current and former military/law enforcement personnel enjoy. The majority of the regular posters on that site are current or former, military or law enforcement personnel. We enjoy shooting precision rifles and competing against each other. Being that most of us have an extensive shooting background established, this is where we discuss better methods to keep our skills sharp. Along the way we can joke about certain subjects as this is what that word camaraderie is all about.

This web site is not to promote sniping of innocents. This web site in my own personal opinion, is a place to discuss the aspects of long range shooting, being able to hit a target at extended distances. I believe the tone of your article was set so as to bring an unnecessarily bad view of this particular web site and the Americans that regularly post there. Remember, the majority of the regulars on this site have been in combat situations or at least served their country. Please don't do them an injustice by implying that their intent is to provide information for any individual to practice sniping on innocents. The recent shootings outrage us just as much as they outrage all peace loving American citizens. This are my own thoughts and in no way reflect those of every member of the Snipercountry web site. Thank you for your time Mr. Daly.

Nick Gebhardt

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:02:57 (ZULU)

lito:

It's at the first of my post, but here it is again:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/25635p-24192c.html

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:06:56 (ZULU)

OK guys don't eveybody go busten this dude from the New York Daily News! Let the Council handle it to start with!!

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:14:08 (ZULU)

On the press - Twist as you will, the truth can be seen by those with eyes and a brain.

On video games and kids - This is my opinion.

I don't think video games make monsters from good kids. I don't think it has much impact at all. The distinction between "fake" and "real" comes from a composite of life experience (be it real or not). The average kid (ghetto to yuppie) doesn't know life and death and is taught by the news, school, peer exposure and religion to "ignore" the realities around him or her.

The softening of humans into pudding is a concerted effort which finds it's origins in good and noble intentions.

To my eye, there are two products of our present society... I see it in my volunteer fire company every day... Young new guys walk in either as pudding or as young men. The young men have 'stones' and simply need to be shown the values they need to be good young men... the pudding is beyond my help and will always be pudding.

Reality is my tool of choice... the more the better. I give it in big doses, without immediate comment. When they come down off the adrenaline and can think again, I give very gentle guidance and insight...over time. This is no ego trip, it's simply letting the young man see the truth.

Teaching kids right from wrong cannot be done in a safe sterile environment...they must have a taste of life's peril before they can understand good from bad. You cannot tell someone the truth, you must let them see it, live it and then form an opinion based on fact.

Oh, also. Good and bad, I would rather live in a world where everyone had 'stones', I find the total waste of a life that is 'pudding' to be the most depressing of all fates for my fellow man.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:17:42 (ZULU)

ygm lito

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:18:30 (ZULU)

Anyone notice the press photo on the CNN webpage of the site where the woman was hit while sitting on a park bench? There is a solitary, well defined hole in the plate glass window behind the bench... trans-cranial intact round in .223? Hmmmm. We still thinking short range?<<<<

No, I'm thinking the guy is using a quality bullet that stays intact, like a Barnes X, a Nosler Partition or a Trophy Bonded. Makes it easier on the forensics people. Then again, it may have simply been too low velocity to cause FMJ fragmentation.

Joe M, in WWII we deliberately set out to kill as many people as possible in Japan, that's why we went with napalm and WP. The reason was that Japan had a decentralized manufacturing base where lots of people worked out of widely scattered small shops. The solution was to kill everybody we could. Same with Dresden. I have no desire to waste civvies for the crime of being from X country, but if they get in the way of the survival of US troops(eg human shields for the BG's), than it's going to be too bad for them.

'Lito, most towel heads aren't nearly as towel head looking as you'd think. Besides, with America being the land of unlimited diversity, everybody fits in. Besides, everybody is scared of being accused of discriminating. Also, when someone shoots, the immediate focus is generally on the target, who tends to attract attention via lots of screams and crowds etc. This means that very few people actually look around for the shooter, which makes getting away easy.

Andy's Dad, could you send me any info on the NTIS and anything you've found? I'd appreciate it.

New York Newspaper assholes: The folks here are generally military and former military, police and other decent citizens. We come here to talk shop about a topic that most people don't understand and generally refuse to understand even if they could. You seem to fall into the "refuse to understand" category. We seek to become more proficient to save the lives of people that are important to us, whether that be fellow Marines, soldiers, police, family or just Joe Citizen who happened to get taken hostage due to bad luck. Some shoot to have fun, but I've seen more than a couple of these same private citizens donate their time and skills to train soldiers and Marines how to become better shooters in order to serve the national interest. Just because you have no desire to become more proficient at a vital military skill, don't bad mouth those who do. You fools have the privelidge to write whatever you wish in your bird cage liner because of people like those here who went out and killed those who would subjugate you. We'd appreciate it if you said, "thank you". We'll settle for you just shutting the Hell up. Print that in your paper! Semper Fidelis...Sgt Ken M Scout-Sniper Platoon, 2nd Bn/24th Marines, 4th MarDiv

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:18:45 (ZULU)

Roger that Sarge. That shit just pissed me off rather quick ya know. My appologies.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:20:27 (ZULU)

Sorry Sarge, I fired one off. It wasn't too bad. Here is what I sent. After you read it please be gentle with me. I didn't got to 16 Grammer schools:

Mr. Daly,

Thank You for failing to mention to your reader that the majority of the folks who post on "Sniper Country" are Law Enforcement, prior military and some active duty Special Forces. You would not want your readers to think that we are responsible adults. Or you made no mention or our current thread regarding the Maryland wacko. No one here thinks the guy is anything but a coward and a wanna be. We DAMN SURE DON"T ADMIRE HIM OR CONDONE WHAT HE IS DOING! I amprior service (ten years Army) and a police office in the ninth largest city in the country. Our department doesn't hire nut bars, wackos so why are you portraying the folks on this site as nut cases. We are Peace Officers and prior military folks discussing a subject that interests us.

But I guess sensationalizing something like this sells papers. And that's all that really concerns you. The facts are immaterial. The things you quoted were taken out of context and seem sinister. But I imagine with you attending 16 Grammar schools. You did not have the time to serve your countrys military to find out what, "Duty, Honor, Country" mean. Until you have served you can not know what commitment and self sacrifice truely is.

Sincerely,

Steve Dickerson (AkA Dirty Steve)

P. S. If you really want to write about something sick and perverted. Why don't you do a piece on the "MBLA" The Man Boy Love Association. cops truely hate folks that hurt kids.

OK I Fired off in haste. Lets all the the counsel handle this. Once again sorry Sarge.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:24:03 (ZULU)

Nick G.

VERY professional and tactful! You spoke volumes in a tone that should suprise the media man! I'll bet a cold beer he expected rantings and illeterate babble from us! Sarge, continue the fight! Funny how we find ourselves constantly defending the Second Ammendment by correctly using the First Ammendment!

Joe M.

Think you are on to something. The randomness of this "dumbass" (my vote for his alias/name, not capitalized nor respected) seems to be a method to his madness. Hopefully LE is looking at what the "dumbass" has not targeted, and will consider them as his future potential targets. The "dumbass" has not engaged a vehicle operator, or a public servant, or a runner or any other moving target. The "dumbass" is not "showing off" skills, he is only taking "gimme" opportunities. My prayer is that he is caught in the act and delt with on the street, swiftly and silently, without media fanfare.

(in)Sain,

Me thinks Skynard is some good pickin'music, bro!

Stay safe!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:59:39 (ZULU)

Steve: I am sorely disappointed.

All the one's you named were great.

But no Freebird ?

Something's wrong with ya boy.

Something's seriously, seriously wrong with ya boy.

You sure you're from the South ? My God man.

No shit ? No Freebird ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:10:26 (ZULU)

People are looking at this page who have never been here before. Ill thought out flames will give that reporter more material to take out of context. Calm down, everybody. Engage brain.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:12:08 (ZULU)

free bird gets a lil lengthy but that song rocks. personally tho. Give me a lil charlie Danials devil went down to georgia and a cold beer

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:22:04 (ZULU)

On the video games thing... I still hold my ground on that. Millions of kids play video games that are more violent that the worst that life has to offer... then they turn it off, and get on with the getting on. A few broken people get lost and do damage, but they didn't get started with the games, and if the games weren't there, they would still have flipped out.

But we are society that LOVES to blame our problems on something else.

We have lousy weather it's global warming, or the ozone hole (neither is true!!)... but years ago, it was the atom bomb tests, the cutting of the rain forrest... you name it, we gotta excuse for it.

No one want's to admit that our perfect society has social problems, that 30+ years of latch key kids have given us a lot of misdirected kids. Back in the 40's and 50's, EVERY highschool had a rifle team, and a range in the basement... even in NYC, the public highschools had rifleteams, and kids took their rifles on the bus... where were the violent acts then, with all that "loose, un-supervised access to firearms"?

It wasn't needed!

When I was in college, I wanted to be a psycologist (it was very "IN" in those days... got you a lotta chicks!). But after a few years and 22 credits, I dumped it, cuz I saw the game... it was publish "studies" at any price. So I offer you these scientific studies on the behavior of humans:

Most killers in jail have a history of drinking beer!

Most drug addicts used peanut butter and jelly when they were young!

Most shop lifters had problems adjusting to adolescence!

Almost all child molesters have read copies of Playboy!

This could go on forever, and did when I was in college... it was page after page of studies that sounded soooooo scientific, until you realized that they ment nothing.

As for terrorests blending in... every one that has been caught and shown on TV would stand out in the typical suburban neighborhood... especially in Maryland this week, carring a gun case... I rest my case.

JT...

"yhm", NOT!... it never got here.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:33:20 (ZULU)

Sarge, you got it. Let me know if / when the ground support should move in. Eloquence is my middle name 8p

It's lovely that such people as ourselves, who have given to our country so much, are now looked upon with derision, for absolutely nothing more than assuming that we would best be served by doing what we do. I know of nobody here that has ever glorified violence. I know of many here that have lived through it, due to skill at arms and luck.

Courage is grace under pressure - Hemingway

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:33:34 (ZULU)

danged double tap

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:33:34 (ZULU)

Sarge, Once again, Sorry. When I see something wrong I just go for it. It's my impaient cop attitude I guess. Or a left over NCO trait.

CDC, Let's engage Brian. Ok, Brian, They played that damn song so often when I was a kid that I couldn't and still can not stand it. I will leave the room or turn it off when it comes on. Oh, I forgot ZZ Top. That is your neck of the woods I believe.

CDC, I know you typed engage brain, but the simularity in spelling just made for a good segway.

The reporter just ticked me off badly. Making us out to look like misfits and wackos. If I were a Psyco killer would I really show dogs as a hobby? Yeah I terrify folks prancing around the show ring with my little GSP bitch on the lead. Oh, next week I will be showing a male GSP out of the number two bitch in the country. He's six months and quite a handful. Anyone wanna tell me why he can be outside all day them come in at night and Pee on the kitchen floor first thing?

Edit> Hemingway, was a drunken womanizer. For this and other reason I admire him. ;)

Dirty Steve, going to lurk mode. Well actually going to work.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:53:27 (ZULU)

Anyone remember "Saturday Night Special"?

Pretty good band. I just change stations when that POS tune comes on.

And I am SICK of "Freebird", and that long-ass tune by Frampton, and...

Gimme a break.

Media sucks. Can't trust 'em. Anybody who spent time in the military during the Viet Nam era knows that. Anytime one wants to talk to me I ask 'em up front if they're a "liberal". Two admitted it and one had done time in 'Nam and was "one of us". But he only does freelance for little feature papers here in the central valley.

And these were medical and foster baby related interviews!

rant;

off

Spud

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:01:47 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I am unfamiliar with our council--but I'm thinking we are refering to our hosts...right?

To those who would defend this site and us'n who post here:

You have my explicit permission to use my name and status in the validation of this sites' usefulness towards real world, LEGAL application of the info posted here. I am and will be responsible for training of soldiers, resourcing this training and when possible, conducting this training (NCOs do, but I step in with their permission to prove that training is for ALL soldiers). Distortions such as this article are examples of irresponsible journalism. To report the facts stipulates discipline. To subjugate your ego and your personal agenda is a trait that sadly does not exist widespread in that field...but unbiased news is allegedly touted as the standard. I can read any paper and tell you each reporters' political affiliation without fail. That is unbiased? Their choice of adjectives spills thier guts for all who think critically to see. This isn't the free exchange of info--it is a blatant attempt of thought control. Their denials are disingenuous in the face of the written (and spoken) evidence. This article is just another example. I have resisted the impulse to unload on this guy...I shall defer to the "council."

Back to why I come here:

Why are controlled round feed actions considered inferior to push feed? I own both, and both function flawlessly. But, I want my only custom stick to be absolutely the best of everything..so inquiring minds wanna know the consensus!

dirtbag in MD: is the card a psyop? I still think "T"

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:37:53 (ZULU)

Andys' dad,

Thanks for the tip on software. Just what I needed. I don't have one of those palm things but they sent the software for that. If anyone needs it, I'll bring it to the match. Email me.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:41:05 (ZULU)

I noticed Daly repeatedly used the canard that "the firearms industry has helped foster [sniper rifles] in recent years to bolster dwindling gun sales". This is straight out of the Violence Policy Center's play book, copied verbatim from their press releases and position papers. Of course, Daly's alleged journalistic ethics wouldn't extend to attributing the source of his "facts", especially when revealing his plegarism might tip off readers to how slanted his coverage of the issue is.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:49:37 (ZULU)

‘lito

Please read the book “On Killing” by LTC David Grossman before you begin a peer review of his work.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/qid=1034186080/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-8766252-5311002

Check out Chapter Three “B.F.Skinner’s Rats and Operant Conditioning at the Video Arcade”.

I find the author’s arguments persuasive and well supported as you might too if you read his work.

I am familiar with the “correlation vs. causation” concept but thanks for the review.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:08:22 (ZULU)

Joe, the push feeds are supposedly better for a tactical rig. You can toss a round into the chamber, slam the bolt home, and go. No worries about slipping it under the feed lips for the controlled feed. Depending on how the barrel is relieved for the extractor, you can get away with this maneuver with a controlled feed type extractor too, although it's hardly recommended due to the extractor not being designed to take this kind of flex routinely. If the barrel isn't properly relieved for the extractor, you have a hang-up, and no real way to get the unfired round out of the chamber without a cleaning rod or something to grab the extractor groove to pry with, and no way to close the bolt.

Personally, I don't have a problem with one or the other. I've always preferred controlled round feeding myself. The next rifle will be built on a push feed though, for just this purpose. Heck, everyone needs one of each, right?

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:09:06 (ZULU)

"Courage is grace under pressure" was F. Scott Fitzgerald, wasn't it?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:09:26 (ZULU)

Joe,

the 'council' consists of Marius, PeteR, Sarge, and X-ring.(correct me if I'm wrong hawgs)

We should indeed let these folks sort Mr. Daly out. As eloquent as we is, in 'telling him off' we could say something which can be taken completely out of context, which could snowball into something worse in next weeks NY newspapers. They'll splice part of one sentence to another until it reads to their political inclinations. Let the admin handle this, it's what they are there for.

mrbullet, sweepman:

I'm sending an email to youse

time for a pint, later aye

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:30:40 (ZULU)

...you guys are so nice (Nick, CDC, etc.).....Mr. Daly you can kiss my big old ASS !!! Print that and don't forget to spell the name with two "o"'s....

Sorry guys....its people like him and Jesse Jackson, Luis that keeps the turd machine stinking in this world and its way past time that the squeaky wheel is just left to rust away and leave if thay don't like it !!!

Freebird, yes......CCR, sucks !!!

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:37:28 (ZULU)

Yeah, you guys knock it off! Here we are with the eyes of the world upon us and you guys are talkin about rock bands. What a disgrace!

Don't you know reporters know this is a conservative, law abiding, no pot smokin, haven of snipin baby killin monsters! Sure we get quoted out of context, here I'm quoted about Jelly Brains and get in the paper when I'm only talkin about Jelly Beans! tsk tsk!

What the world should know is they are lookin in the wrong place for some pimp wannabee killer. The worst of us here.. hell, my wife could make the shots this guy is makin with here 1874 Antique Sharps with Iron sights.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 19:18:26 (ZULU)

My response to Mr. Daley

Mr. Daley, I have read your article in the DAILY NEWS on the information shared by shooters on sniper related web pages. As one who frequents these pages, I own many firearms. I have attended tactical shooting classes and am proud to say that the information gained from these endeavors has made me a finer marksman. I have increased my knowledge of firearms, tactics, ballistics, and my ability to judge distances. I have learned how wind, altitude, temperature and humidity affect each an every round that I fire, at any distance. This information has not made me a terrorist, or a killer. It has made me a more confident and competent marksman.

I have owned and shot firearms all of my life. I own what is loosely called by the liberal press both assault rifles and sniper rifles. I learned to shoot in The Boy Scouts of America, and the United States Army taught me more about shooting, and the costs of freedom.

You see Mr. Daley, the freedom that you so enjoy as you judge others and so proudly share with millions through the press, comes to you not through the lofty endeavors of the poet, the author, or the editor. Those freedoms were granted to you by brave men centuries ago who held rifles in their arms. The learned the art of the rifle from their fathers, their brothers, their neighbors and their friends. They shared this information in any way that they could because they knew that there wouyld be times in their lives when what they knew was important.

Today is no different. We still learn to shoot from others, we learn fieldcraft, survival, and tactics from those who have been there, and know what it takes to be successful and survive. These are skills that some seem to think that we no longer need. We have smart bombs, laser guided, with pinpoint accuracy. We have cruise missiles, tactical nuclear weapons, billion dollar hardware that has taken the idea of war and conflict to a level that was previously unimaginable. Our military service learned in both the great wars, as well as in Korea and Viet Nam that the man with the rifle was indispensable. It was a lesson that unfortunately we had to learn over and over with each conflict, until the Army and Marines finally formed the Sniper training programs that they have today.

The people that you are so critical of on many of these sniper websites are police officers, military personnel, active, reserve and retired. Patriots of all types who know that the skills and knowledge that they talk about and share with others are ones that we as a nation cannot afford to let slip away. We cannot afford to let them slip away because we know that in future conflicts, as we have learned in the past, that the wars will be won by one man, with his rifle. As it has been, and so it will be, over and over again. Our country kept safe and secure by a marksman. The same marksman who over two hundred years ago secured for you the freedom of speech, and has allowed you to publish your mind, without fear of reprisal or censure. This is the man that many of us hold in a place of honor, and without which our world would be a very, very different place.

Dennis Muldrew

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 19:21:35 (ZULU)

Mr. Muldrew,

A great response and very thoughtful.

All:

I realize this isnt "Intel Country" but I am in a bind and many of you are knowledgeable about world events/international affairs.

I am currently writing papers on "Rebuilding Afganistan" and need additional sources for info (articles, analysis, papers, disertations) - anything!

I'm also researching for a possible paper on Chechnya, Georgia or the Caspian Basin (and related countries/republics).

If anyone has any good online sources, please hook me up.

(Email would be appreciated!)

My research well is going dry here.

Thanks,

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 20:27:29 (ZULU)

dont know whats wrong with my mail , i copied and pasted a few into 1 i dont know what was sent and what wasnt. and what ya already wrote back too because this thing crashed AGAIN

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 20:56:26 (ZULU)

Bill "Jelly Bean" Rogers makes a good point. Careful how you talk Bill, someone could research our past pie fights and decide that you are a dangerous lunatic.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 20:57:04 (ZULU)

Getting Torqued:

Range day last Sat. Finally got to shoot the Winny Coyote .308 that's been in the safe for about 3 months. Got the barrel channel releived so it's not touching the barrel (thanks 'lito).

Didn't have time to load so took a couple of boxes of 175 gr GMM. First round from cold clean barrel hit 1.75 high & dead on in windage @ 100 yds. This from only a boresighting. I'm thinking, damn I'm getting good at setting one up. Next round, with no adjustment, hits about 3" left and 2" low. WTF? Third round is less left but about 3 high.

Stopped shooting to think a while. Front and rear screws are both torqued to 65 in. lbs. The night before I read an article in American Rifleman" about pillar bedding the tang screw on 98 Mausers. The author mentioned that the rear screw on Mausers and Winchesters should only be torqued to about 25 in. lbs.

With nothing to loose, I broke out the torque wrench and retorqued the front to 65 and the rear to 25. Ran a bore snake through once and proceeded to give it another try. 1st round about 3" high and 2" right. Next 4 rounds in ghe same spot for a nice .68 group.

Lesson learned...There's exceptions to every rule.

Now to work up a Varget load.

Question...This is a factory laminated stock and I can't afford an aftermarket McMillian or HS right now. Given the above performance, do you guys think I'd gain anything from bedding the factory stock?

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:05:15 (ZULU)

Dakotabird-man,

You got mail. Subject research on a'stan. I got kin in SD, or so I've been told.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:06:36 (ZULU)

MadDog,

That M118 you have (not M118 Special Ball?) is pure crap and may cause you to go out on the streets and start shooting people. It was filled by the maker with a special ju-ju powder that will turn you into a killer with one whiff!

But boy do I have good news for you. I happen to be one of the only licenced disposal technicians in the country, and have privately owned facilities to accomplish that task.

Just wrap all that you have in your possession to UPS or FedEx standards and ship it directly to me. I will incur and/or reimburse you for all expenses. Please e-mail me directly for shipping address.

Thank you,

ALAN (The Ammo Disposal Man)

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:35:22 (ZULU)

Sorry my original question was incomplete / unclear.

The barrel is the stock barrel that came with an AR-10T, 24", 4 lands and grooves, 1:11.5" twist, stainless. I've not been able to determine who made it.

I bought the AR to experiment with; I never expected bolt gun accuracy from it which is good because the best 5 shot group I've ever gotten from it was right at one MOA (100 yards). A lot of times, I'll get four shots into a half inch at 100 yards but that fifth shot will open the group up to 1 - 1.5" (using match ammo, several different flavors). I've read here that some folks do much better with their 10T's and I've personnaly watched one guy shoot a 1/2" group at 100 yards with his stock (except for the scope) A-4.

The 1/64 th inch spacing on the rings is an estimate based on my best guess that eight rings would fit into 1/8 th inch.

I wonder if the appearance of the rings may be created by the light itself (refraction / defraction, don't know. I had to cheat on the optics test in Physics and I still only got a C).

The rings appear on both the lands and the groves and are visible as far down the bore as the light will illuminate (probably less than an inch).

The cotton swabs on the wooden sticks come in bulk packages (100 count). We have two sizes, 3 and 6 inch. The 6 inch size comes in a package with an autoclave indicator strip.

I'm thinking of cutting the barrel back to 22" and see what happens. Like I said, it's an experiment. If it was perfect from the start, I'd have to find something else to play with.

Thanks for the help.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:48:56 (ZULU)

Don,

Generally speaking, that 65 in. lb. figure was intended for aluminium bedding block (like the H-S Precision) or pillar bedded, or strongly compound bedded synthetic stocks (like the McMillan).

Maybe even more importantly, that center action screw in the Winnie should be a maximum of maybe 8 lbs. I just slowly tighten mine until the floorplate closes properly, then check the resultant torque value. I've had anywhere from 6 to 18 lbs. and that last one was from the Winchester Custom Shop!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:50:57 (ZULU)

Dag nab it! I work and I work to make as many posts as possible and still do not get recognized by Daley for my efforts.

Rosterferians, you are taking this whole thing the wrong way! We now have exposure to at least the 10 or so people that read that rag. Bruce got free advertisement. Rogers is now a wound analysis expert. Brian is SOL and will be divorced any day now. Dang guys, enjoy the exposure!

Just so Daley has something else to bitch about, I will opine sumpin else on the shooter in MD. He may not be carrying a riffle. Rem XP's and Striker bolt pistols also come in 223 if I remember correctly. Easily concealable, etc.

Off to lap some rings on one of those nasty old sniper rifles, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 22:10:22 (ZULU)

CDC; your right!!! I've been a little depressed since I found out from you that my mother is still a virgin and I'm probably just a little paranoid too..wait a minute I think somebody's trying to break in...gosh it's only the mail man, "Honey don't shoooot!" OK..., wonder what he's up too, probably another one of those letters with the white stuff... But my wife is the right wing religious fanatic and the real dangerous one and she's no virgin most of the time. I'm not really that brave to post that, but she can't read anything but a Mil dot Master, (That evil computer thing we use against the evil doers of the world).

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 22:16:40 (ZULU)

Shi'thead(the asswhipe in MD);

I believe he's been here before. I don't think he stuck around very long though. I think he was looking for info that we don't cover here. I'd bet he's been to EVERY gun website around, not just this one.

If he's a TERR, he didn't need a website. Trained by others over there and maybe here too.

If I were to make a guess at it, I'd say he's shooting a Mini-14.

It's cheap and readily available(probably stolen). He's using iron sights, the last few shots seem to be aimed center mass. He's using the $5 a box bullits from Wal-Mart. I just have a feeling he's not using high end stuff.

Newspaper;

I believe that someone(a Hollywoody or politico) once said "Any press is good press."

Maybe some of those readers will check us out and see he's full of cracksmoke.

SKYNYRD ROCKS;

They did do "Saturday Night Special" but they also done "Gimme Back My Bullits."

.223 handgun;

Yes, the Striker is available in .223. I started to buy one but went for the .308. About the most awkward gun I've shot. I'll get used to it though.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 23:41:41 (ZULU)

"Jelly Bean" Rogers: I'm not talking about your belief that the mailman is getting coded messages from Planet Zorp on his bridgework. David "Baghdad" Bonier has ideas at least that eccentric and he is the Democrats House Whip.

What I meant was your preference for Sheepherders to Loopys, AKs to ARs, and (break out the butterfly nets) Tupperware to John M's undying masterpiece.

Joe M.: There are supposed to be some strength and accuracy advantages to the push feed. I am agnostic on those questions, but think the feeding and manipulation of the push feed from the prone are much easier. When single feeding there is no comparison.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 00:30:16 (ZULU)

I will bet this Maryland fruitcake is a teenager or in his twenties, and a shunned nut like the two idiots from Columbine. Why? Shooting defenseless innocents, leaving this megalomaniac "I am God" card, and shooting children.

The card means he craves attention and notoriety (people don't normally give this cheese-dick the time of day, so he's retaliating at the world).

Weapon probably a stolen cheapo WallyKMart bolt gun (from his parents or other relative) with a generic deer hunting scope. Little experience, so he shoots close-in (150 yards) distances where even a Ruger makes up for his lack of skill and inability to hit squirrels and rabbits.

Probably got a buddy he can dominate (another loser) who serves as his lookout and driver.

I hope the cops nail these psychos quickly, before more innocents suffer from his delusions of grandeur. Or better yet, get them convicted and thrown into "population" with a bunch of guys with 13 year-old kids and relatives in Montgomery County.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:30:15 (ZULU)

Daley must have reasearched that article over a year ago as "Bain" aint posted here for about 2 years.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:35:46 (ZULU)

Hey Fellers,

Couple a things. Can anyone think of a good reason why I shouldn't sell my Swedish Mauser so I can finally get Badger rings/bases for my PSS? It's a right purdy riffle, but I never shoot it and the ammo is too expensive for a casual plinker. Ah hell, I'm gonna regret sellin it, but life is full of regrets.

As far as media press types go,

Until the higher-ups here get things ironed out, remember (especially for these sensitive touchy feely types) in e-mails etc. more can be accomplished with honey than vinegar. Let the legal sharks etc. dispense da' vinegar. I'm sure they'll let us know when it's clear to fill the ole super-soaker with rotten apple juice. Just my $.02

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:44:46 (ZULU)

Shucks; I apologize for David that filling fell out and without the mother ship messages...now he thinks Sadamm is his lost kid brother. Common, everybody has their fetishes. Tupperware is more of a bad habit than fetish I's guessin. Even Ronnie liked Jelly Beans for goodness sake. Just cause I use a few for target practice I catch all this crap. AK or AR whas the difference when you get down to it? Didn't I apologize enough for that Sheepherder glass?

We gonna tell them guys how to get rid of that Sniper wannabee? Ya do it jus like I do these yotes. You go to huntin him when he hunts and settin up ambush traps in his territory. IF he's a real deal just being clever to look like a wannabee he'll know he's done when he's being hunted by another (quote)Sniper and he'll put it away or move cause it ain't no fun catchin .308 in your teeth or eye socket. (By the way world, you can't get a Sniper with artillery)I hope you get my drift. If he's ;just a wannabee he won't last long in a little place like that Maryland State. Half dozen real deal snipers will sniff him out and deliver the Jelly his Bean shot when he tries another hit. He's about to run out of luck I think. LE Don't go bunchin up and searchin in them woods though like I seen on CNN today. I'd be too happy were I a Sniper in there waitin. Ya never know when he's gonna go offensive. Do it one tree at a time, point man first. Maybe it just looked that way.

"ONE SHOT ONE KILL!" yeah we do say that don't we? Didn't we get that from that silly Sniper Movie? Ah na maybe that Actor fella Tom whatsisname got it from us. I think maybe that's about 50 years old really. First time I heard it was some old Army Sniper down at the fort about 40 years ago claimin some hits on a Nazi in the tree rows a few year before that. It has more to do with accuracy than killin. Just want all our NEW readers to get it right.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:45:49 (ZULU)

Jody; I had one (Striker) in .223; clumsy surenuff. That Muzzle device though, neater hell! Hope you got one on your .308.

Lemme add this. One of the LE people made the comment on TV that the Sniper was "playing God". The response on the card was a direct response to that I think, I am God! Should be read "I AM! God." Not terribly revealing but one must not sell this guy too short yet. My point is he doesn't actually think he... IS God! Imagine the dicipline it takes to drop the hammer once or twice, make the kill and split. This one isn't a suicidial maniac, he's a bit of a showman I'm afraid. He wants to get by with it. The worse kind.

Gooch, that quote of mine was way back too. He just didn't have time to read the whole thing I guess.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:50:01 (ZULU)

'lito, incoming, MEK, again. No attachments.

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!! - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 02:05:02 (ZULU)

Brogers;

Unfortunately, no, mine doesn't have the muzzel brake. It's accurate though. I just put a Rifle Basix 3lb. trigger in it. Much nicer now.

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 02:05:10 (ZULU)

Jody; and anyone else interested, the Striker has a break that opens and closes with a twist. Helps when you want recoil control or your ears ripped off with the back blast. The .223 shot the same impact point open or closed but shot tighter with it open. You get a choice anyway. Wish I had one on my other rifles.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 02:09:22 (ZULU)

brodgers , the coin phrase " 1 shot 1 kill" came from the marines in early ww2 , when the US decided that the m1 garand was there new baby over the 03 they despised it saying semi's were wastes of ammo and would cause people with an itchy finger to feel that many shots were better then 1 , they prefered 1 shot 1 kill. I wasnt personally there but thats what ive read and thats the oldest reference ive seen . this was at the time the US mil already did away witht he 03 the the combat marines were on there own for parts and were using the barrels that were made by sedgely for the marine corps shooting team and later were used as standard replacement barrels for there 03's . i know i left out MANY details dates and other interesting info and im sure somone can elaborate on the subject but the point remains

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 03:46:14 (ZULU)

Bolt,

It cudda bin a Contenda!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 03:49:42 (ZULU)

my reeding comprehenshun sems to bee goen two Hell

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 03:54:52 (ZULU)

Steve in Tampa, Give George Gardner (GA Precision) a call 816-221-1844 regarding your AR-10 he can work wonders with your rifle. Don't take a hacksaw to it yet!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 04:14:52 (ZULU)

JT,

"The Sedgely barrels were not purchased for shooting teams or for any special sniping rifles. They were regular barrels to be used in the overhaul and repair of Model 1903 rifles in the hands of the USMC."

Col. Brophy - p.242

"WWII USMC Field Replacement barrel produced by Sedgely. NOT used on the U.S.M.C. Sniper Rifle".

J.C. Harrison - p.48

There is plenty more, but I am plenty lazy tonight. Just another word to the wise! 'lito has already warned you to get it together when playing in the 'big leagues'! For your own good.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 04:17:38 (ZULU)

Dan,

It's difficult for me to emulate a Brooklyn accent on the keyboard. Quote was from the great movie "On the Waterfront". I think it might have been Brando's first Oscar-winning performance. In it, he's an up and coming boxer, who was manipulated into throwing a fight by his gangster brother (Rod Steiger). In a conversation taking place in the back seat of a car, Brando asks his brother why he made him throw this important fight. Staring into Steigers' eyes, he exclaims " I could have been a contender".

My sarcastic remark was directed at Bolt (in fun) when earlier this PM, he brought up the fact that this "sniper" puke may be using a single shot centerfire handgun in .223,and mentioned two different models. He forgot to mention the TC!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 04:30:50 (ZULU)

JT I'm thinkin your right on. It was probably 1954 when I heard that first.

There's the other thing we should explain too. "Run but you'll only die tired!" Another Marine Corp saying I'd bet. I first saw it on a T-shirt I think about 15 years ago. Snipin has been a bit of a serious business in the past and now. What the public needs to understand is that one can read these pages, heed the world of advice to the letter, go out and get a weapon and begin banging away. He's likely to miss just about everything he shoots at. You don't learn this art in a book or on a web page. Sure there are tricks and aids but should you think you know what you're doing and run against one of these Law Enforcement Snipers/Sharp Shooters that utilize this info at the level discussed here and you can hope you will wind up on a slab in the Morgue as the best thing that will happen to you. We don't turn out Snipers here, we just meet here for the fine points and as you can read we seldom agree on any of them.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 05:40:45 (ZULU)

***** Need Help ******

I need a bunch of you Mad Dog killer types to brighten the last days of one of my wifes friends child. Some one organized a birthday card shower for him. He will be turing 14 soon and would like to get anyone willing to send this child a card to send me an email and I will forward the address to you all. He wont live much longer I'm afraid. When Make-A-Wish gets involved you know he won't make it become an adult. The parents are a God fearing military family.

The screen is getting blurry.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 06:03:47 (ZULU)

What is the deal on Bushnell 32-1040M ?

The scope is a fixed 10X40 with mil-dots and target turrets without caps and is part of Bushnells Elite 3200 Rainguard -scope series. It has target turrets with 1/4" cliks, 1" tube and 100 MOA adjustment range which sounds good but it costs only $189.95 at www.swfa.com. It does not seem to have any parallax-adjustment so it is lacking somewhat in that sense and is different for them orginal B&L Tactical scope.

Does anybody have any clue about this scopes quality ? I am asking because a comparatively cheap but decent mil-dot scope could be usefull for a 22 rifle. I do have Vari-XIII M3 LR and NF 5.5-22X56 with mildots on my real rifles so this scope would never replace my main optics but I would prefer to have something decent over my 22 rifle.

Any insights ?

Hexa

Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:33:32 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"my reeding comprehenshun sems to bee goen two Hell"<

Yur reedng comperhenshon gowin two heell is becaz youz gots CRS (i thnkcuz Igot it two ;) U katch it form the rostefer!

ALAN...

The full quote is:

I cudda been somebody... I cudda been a contenda!"

(See... I can write "Brooklyn" ;)

It's hard to believe that the Brando of those days is the same guy as that faggy 500 pound mound of "Big Macs" that lives in California today... wadda waste!

Ginger...

Send me the address, and I'll send the kid a card. What kind of stuff does he like... I might throw in a doggie box.

Hexa...

The little Bushnells are sorta ok... 1" tube, and the tubes are glued into the turret hub... no relationship to the outstanding B&L 10x Tac... but for a .22, it should be fine.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 11:22:03 (ZULU)

Alan:"Maybe even more importantly, that center action screw in the Winnie should be a maximum of maybe 8 lbs. I just slowly tighten mine until the floorplate closes properly, then check the resultant torque value."

Roger that. My wrench (Sears) only goes to 25 in lbs min. but I tighten it till the floor plate will just latch and then give it a hair more.

Thanks for the follow up.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 11:44:37 (ZULU)

Ref: Kim's Game

A guy posted a question about Kim's games on another site and I put together an answer you guys might find interesting.

Kim’s Game is a great exercise for the memory and that is why it is part of sniper training.

To learn more about Kim’s Games go to:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/6690/kim.htm#Basic

http://www.schoolsite.edex.net.uk/500/kimsgame.htm

http://www.guidezone.skl.com/jkims.htm

The origin of Kim’s Game is widely misunderstood in the sniper community. Because most of us were introduced to Kim’s Game in the military the assumption is that KIMS must be an acronym as so many words are in the military. I was told in my first sniper school that KIMS stood for “Keep In Memory System”. Well, this made sense to me so I believed it and repeated it often.

KIM is listed in the glossary of FM 23-10 as:

KIM………….keep-in-memory (exercise game)

In Chapter 9 of FM23-10 “Sniper Training and Employment” the KIM game is referred to as a “memory enhancement exercise”. A full description of the game in its military context can be found there along with score sheet examples.

In the SOTIC manual, chapter four, section 4-9 the KIM game is referred to again as an acronym (Keep-In-Memory).

I was embarrassed to learn the truth years later after someone threw the bullshit flag on me.

The truth is, Kim’s Game comes from a book written by Rudyard Kipling called the “Jungle Book”.

The Jungle Book was written in 1894. Kipling wrote Captains Courageous and the two Jungle Books. These books earned him the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1907.

In Kipling's story, Kim becomes friends with a dealer in old jewelry and curiosities, who is a member of the government intelligence service. The man saw that Kim had potential for the same. He gave Kim lessons on noticing small details and remembering them. A tray full of jewels was uncovered. Kim looked at them for a minute before they were again covered up. Kim is beaten by a youth in this game. He then played the "Jewel Game" often to increase his powers of observation.

So, that’s the skinny on Kim’s game.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 11:59:19 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

In the spirit of "Know thy enemy", I'm watching Good Morning America" right now. They just did a blurb on an upcoming segment on "The world of Sniping enthusists who say they practice the art for sport". More attention we don't need. If I can see it before heading for work, I'll report.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 12:13:41 (ZULU)

Kevin,

We must not have subjected you to Kims' games in WV. I've been telling you guys about the Kipling connection ever since I've been on here. Now, I know literature aint everyones big gig on here but Kipling should be required reading for snipers. Especially "The Young British Soldier". "When you're laying on the Afghanistan plain, and the women come out to cut up what remains. Just role to your rifle and blow out your brains, and go to your God like a soldier". Or words to that effect.....

Anyway. Running a police sniper course this week. Everyone in the course has tgt turrrets. Guys. I really dont see the use for them. At 25 yds each click is worth a sixteenth of a moa? Sheeit. On the average and depending on the sight height it takes about 12 -16 clicks to get to a 25 yard zero from a 100 yard zero. Most of the guys can shoot from 50-100 with the same sight setting (again depending on sight height). Seems to me as long as you stick to a 40mm obj lens and low rings you are better off.

Just stiring shit:-)

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 12:28:44 (ZULU)

Ref: GMA Sniper Culture Segment

Saw it. Promintely featured a guy from the Viloence Policy Center who emphasized that "It has nothing to do with varmints and everything to do with killing people". They had a "sniper trainer" named Tarpely who says he trains mil & police but refuses to train civilians. He did emphasize that it's about accuracy and everything that contributes to it.

Also featured the SC main page and that of Sniper's Paradise.

All in all, the unfair, unbalanced smear job I fully expected.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 12:55:00 (ZULU)

Don,

I caught that GMA segment also. They almost make it sound like any "sniper training" is equivalent to Al Queda training.

If that dodo from the VPC had his way, Ghillies will be considered dangerous weapons.

These people make you want to blow chow.

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 13:28:31 (ZULU)

So SC is getting its 15 minutes. The next step in the hatchet job would be to interview one of the more colorful Rosterfarians (Jelly Bean?) then cut and splice the interview to conform to the story the editors/reporters wanted to write going in.

Propoganda 101, and these hacks have PhDs.

When they did a story on Rush, they found the least appealing listener imaginable. They tried to make it look like he was representative of Rush's audience. What they didn't bother to point out was that William F. Buckley, Willian Bennett, Richard Cheny, Henry Kissinger and Joe DiMaggio also formed part of the audience.

These hacks are going to try to make it look like anyone who makes an effort to hit where he aims is an explosive, psychotic baby-killer.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 13:29:21 (ZULU)

Gee's I hope they don't find out about my Math PHD! And my Associate Electronic Engineering degree. I'm sure they'll drag me off as a dangerous intellectual with Terrorist Training and an Okie accent. Oh well, nobody's perfect. Who me colorful? It's OK I don't use Tabacce or Coors. How you gonna explain that?

"more colorful Rosterfarians (Jelly Bean?)" Why thanks Katie! How bout takin me to see that big statue of the bearded guy? huh? Whatchadoin after the show?

That Sniper feller on "Today" says it's all about control (this Sniper business)and all along I thought that's what politics was all about. Is he thinkin Snipin is Political? Gee;s I hope not! What if they was to find out all Snipers are Republicans?

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 13:39:26 (ZULU)

.....I've got an idea.....

Let's get Gooch an interview with "Bill OReilly" at FoxNewsChannel to tell the REAL story.....

Mr. Gooch...you do have a way with 'dem words !!!!!!

...on Educated persons....truth be known, there's probably enough "professors" posting here to start our own University.....your's truly included !!!!

.....Question.....I've got two Leupold VX-II's that are still super clear and in great shape....one a 3x9x50, and the other a 4x12x40....only about $150(ea.) to add mil-dots and target turrets to them.....would you ???? Both raffles that they would be places on are for either deer or varmint hunting......

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 13:59:44 (ZULU)

well alan

i guess ill have to dig up and directly quote where i read it from and when the match took place and between which 2 ships it was. it not a problem and like i said in my post im sure somone could add to it

The Marines, in 1940-'41, understandably looked on the M1 as a potential "waster" of ammunition. Marines, traditionally, have always been big into the "One shot, one kill" routine even before the phrase was primarily attributed to the sniping community… In WWI, the Germans wrote letters home that spoke of rifle fire that started to kill at 700 yds; unheard of in European Armies… The Marines were BIG into marksmanship, and they saw little or no use of a bullet squirting rifle… If you wanted a greater volume of fire, the BAR and the M1919A4 were your tools for such, not the rifle. For individual target selection, aimed fire was the watchword.

Even after testing the M1 and the Johnson Rifles, the Marines deliberately chose to stay with their beloved M1903. Understanding that they would be essentially alone in the use of the M1903, they set about gathering a supply of spare parts for their Springfields. They let a contract with A.F. Sedgely of Philadelphia to produce replacement barrels for the '03, to replace barrels worn out in service (WOIS). Sedgely was noted for producing notable match '03s and Springfield Sporters. My Dad told me that the Marine Rifle Team aboard the U.S.S. Oklahoma in 1919 had Sedgely Springfields. That year they beat their nearest competitor, the U.S.S. Idaho by over 100 points! In other words, the Sedgely folks were well regarded by the match shooters of the day.

Sedgely also had the advantage of being located in Philadelphia which was also the home of the Marine Corps Quartermaster and Ordnance Depot during the WWII years and beyond. This allowed the ordnance folks to keep a close eye on the production of the barrels.

The battle of Guadalcanal changed all that, and the Marines, watching the Army arrivals with the M1 were soon converted to the bullet squirter… as a result, there wasn't an M1 safe on the island. The M1903 was relegated to the dust of history, and the M1 came into its own.

The Marines did take delivery of the Sedgely Barrels, but relatively few were ever actually used. Most of those that found their way onto Marine Corps '03s will be dated either 41 or 42, although I have seen a couple of legitimate rifles with 43 barrels.

Legitimate Marine Corps '03s utilizing the Sedgely Barrels will (almost always) be found with the so-called "Hatcher (gas relief) Hole" drilled on the left side of the receiver. While General Hatcher had recommended this for all the '03s (most especially the "low numbered" guns), seemingly only the Marines took his advice to heart (the Remington and Smith Corona '03s and '03A3s were MANUFACTURED WITH the Hatcher Hole totally omitting the original gas relief hole on the RIGHT side of the receiver. A typical "low numbered" USMC '03 was rebarreled (often with the Sedgely Barrels) and had the Hatcher Hole drilled. They were issued with the caution that they were not to be fired with rifle grenades.

As far as accuracy of the Sedgely Barrels??? Truthfully, I don't know, but it would seem a bit strange for the Marines to accept inaccurate barrels from an organization that was noted for accuracy??!! While I have one of these in my collection, but have never fired it, as I consider it a collector's item.

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 14:13:50 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

Bad ju-ju you guys are getting. Hope the goverment doesn't feel it has to 'do something' because of the frenzy whipped up by a ratings hungry media feeding a largely ignorant public. Thats what happened here after Dunblane and saw the handgun ban as a result. Since the evil handguns have been removed from our society we know enjoy gun crime that is increasing at its highest rate ever; odd that, I thought we would all be safer now :-/ Anyway, back to the shoot'n.

Lito,

Saw you mention an annealing kit a few weeks back. Who makes it and is it any good? My last efforts were too inconsistant (I'm a heavy-handed clot).

Paul Cockeram (please forgive the spelling if wrong),

Pete Lincoln says to tell you he has ordered your SSG rings, and says to say he is sorry for the delay.

All,

Pete sends hugs and kisses. Pete is enjoying what remains of his hols (vacation to you Brian ;-)) with a hammer in hand, STILL doing his house up. Assures me it will be done and dusted by the end of the month. We shall see!

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 14:21:10 (ZULU)

The Kim’s Game subject is another example of sniper reference books containing inaccurate or otherwise bogus information. Over time I’ve collected just about everything in print about sniping and the related “martial arts”. Of course first on my list were the military publications on the subject.

I’ve discovered that the military publications are not the “gospel” I thought they were. Add to that the fact that many of the other publications are written by people pulling information from these manuals and the whole base of reference on the subject is pretty well rife with inaccuracies. If you don’t think critically and don’t look for proof it’s likely that you’ll fall victim to some of this “bad poop”.

I own books written by “experts” in the field with diametrically opposed opinions. Who’s right? One of these authors has been exposed on another web site as a poser and a fake and two of his texts sit on my bookshelf as I write this. We all know about the Mil-Dot section of Plaster’s book. Many of the works that occupy space on my bookshelf are nothing more than their author's “I Love Me Scrapbooks” or catalogs for goods or services with a little sniper text mixed in.

Finding solid reliable sniping information in print can be tricky. Caveat Emptor

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 14:26:23 (ZULU)

HOGs a little help. Been working on balistic tables for 338 Lapua with 300 Grain SMK at 2800 fps, 7500 elevation, 300 yard zero and 59-90 degrees temp. Dont believe the results of my balistic program and wnat to croos check. I get the following in MOA, based on 300 yard zero.

1500=39.5

1600=44.25

1700=49.5

1800=54.5

1900=60.0

2000=66.0

All this is in yards at 59 degrees.

Please give me your results.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 14:30:15 (ZULU)

What is the deal on Bushnell 32-1040M ?

Hexa,

The scope you referred to is, IMHO, the best Tactical scope to be found at this time for under $200. It is very bright, and the WE adjustments on the scope are very precise and repeatable. The tubes ARE NOT glued into the target hub. This was also a concern of mine, as you can plainly see a thin layer of a glue-like substance around the base of the turret housing. Since this scope is waterproof, I was not sure exactly what this was. However, a call to Bushnell confirmed that the turret hubs are not attached by glue. As you mentioned, it does not have parallax-adjustment. Make no mistake, this scope is nowhere near the toughness and quality of the orginal B&L Tactical scope. On the other hand, it sells for nowhere near what the B&L Tactical or Leupold Tactical scopes sell for. I currently have one mounted on a FN SPR in .308, and am very happy with it. I heartily recommend it to someone on a budget wanting a quality tactical scope.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 15:39:48 (ZULU)

*** Guys thanks for all the support.***

My wife really appriciates the response. The Child has a brain tumor and has had a several operations. But they can not remove 100% of it and it keeps growing back.

She also says Mr Daly is a jackass and sent him an email. I didn't think she was going to due that when I told her about all our undue attention. Well, she said jerk. She is more religous and wont use profane words. So I use them for her. She such a smart woman with two Bachlors Degrees and going for her Masters. I know, if shes so smart why did she marry me. Ok, I'll explain it like this. You ever see a pitifull little puppy or kitty (Easy Lito) and think if I dont take care of it know one will? Well, there you go.

Thanks Again,

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 15:52:28 (ZULU)

Mike Miller,

You got mail WITH attachment.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 15:53:23 (ZULU)

JRM It might be nice to see the truth, but wouldn't blame Gooch if he said no.

Jon; We have a rule in this country where we already have a law against everything. If somebody does something wrong we first pass a few new un-enforcable laws that have no affect on the perp that did what ever it was to start with.... and ultimately will be stuck down by the constitution but a few will remain to complicate the regulation process and make life miserable for those who had nothing to do with the problem originally.

BRogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 16:03:18 (ZULU)

undude,

Slings came yesterday. Excellent equipment. Thank you, sir.

What was the final consensus on Dell Computer? Does their money go to HCI?

Look at all that punctuation, grammar, spelling and complete sentences.... maybe he should get fired up mo' often.

John

edited to add... no I can't spell plagirism???

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 16:33:57 (ZULU)

Part of the problem with the media is that they are too stupid to figure out that the techniques that snipers use were not developed by the military. They were borrowed from hunters, poachers, game keepers etc. What are they gonna do ban hunting? Yeah, I know they want to do that too. There are thousands of people down south here that are sniper trained. They all tote rifles accurate enough to do what this loser is doing, have camouflage uniforms, stalking skills etc. They are called hunters!

Fucking media.

Oh yeah. In case this asshole reads this website.

Fuckstick. Knock off your shit. Sit down, stick the barrel in your mouth and pull the trigger. Write us a good note about how fucked up your life is and how you are doing the world a favor by offing innocent people. You are a loser and probably have a tiny penis which you make up for by playing with guns. Remember, load the rifle first before sucking on the barrel.

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 17:01:22 (ZULU)

undude,

U have mail w/ attachment. Approx. 346K

Exbal calc.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 17:02:25 (ZULU)

If anyone wants to see that video heres a link to a page where you can find it.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/video_index/video_index.html

"Inside the Sniper Culture - Growing subculture of snipers take it as a sport."

However.... I didn't watch it as it costs 4.95 per month to join their "ABC News On Demand" service.

----

Thanks to those who emailed with good sources for afganistan and the Russian Republics.

If anyone has a reliable source of news for those regions (or any of the areas such as Europe, Mideast, Asian, Eurasian, African, etc..)

I'd like to know. It would be a great help.

Thanks,

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 17:08:41 (ZULU)

On Gooch's point: If forced to guesstimate, I'd say that there are 30 million people and 150 million rifles in the US that are technically capable of doing what this pencil-neck is doing. In October the woods are full of them. Some geek's mama didn't love him and ABC News tries to hang him around our necks.

Here's a flash for you ABC watchers: THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ARE NOT HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE!

Washington Post picks up VPC's blather: "...According to Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, one of the most lethal types is the sniper rifle, designed and manufactured for the purpose of killing human beings at more than five times the range at which hunters shoot deer."

So, a .223 has five times the range of great-great-granddaddy's "thirty ought six"? That, dear friends, is an intentional lie told to mislead the gullible. The rifle this pencil-neck is using has, arguably, half the range of rifles that have been in routine use for over one hundred years. The rifle sight he is using is almost certainly the same basic design as sights that have been in use since the 1920s. Walmart has them for $39.95.

There's plenty of expert opinion on this board. I'm sure that Mr. Diaz welcomes your input.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3756-2002Oct9.html

Alan: Didn't Elia Kazan win an Oscar for directing "On The Waterfront?"

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 17:32:39 (ZULU)

Continued from CDC’s comments.

Actually, from the same article comes this comment "In Maryland, home of some of the country's tightest gun control laws, anyone who can clear a background check -- instant for some rifles, seven days for others -- can buy a weapon"

This is presented in a context of "wrong doing".....

Perhaps the author of this article needs a refresher on who exactly owns the government. How could he possibly insinuate that verified law abiding citizens cannot be trusted. Who, pray tell, can be trusted if you cannot trust the constituancy for whom our government governs?

A little refresher for our newest visitors... two separate elements of US law. Regardless of opinion, it is VERY DIFFICULT to NOT come to a common conclusion when you read the below two pieces together.

#1 - The Second Amendment to our US Constitution - A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed

#2 - Title 10 USC. Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under

45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United

States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard

and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of

the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the

Naval Militia.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 18:57:30 (ZULU)

"...According to Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, one of the most lethal types is the sniper rifle, designed and manufactured for the purpose of killing human beings at more than five times the range at which hunters shoot deer."

Them boys over at long range hunting hear about these "Sniper Rifles" yet? Think about it,, some of them boys could be taking whitetail at 6000 yards with a "sniper rifle" instead of their hunting rifles.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 19:01:54 (ZULU)

Alan:

Ref the screw torque on my Coyote. Forgot to mention that when I first got it the end of the stock was bearing on the barrel. I called Winchester customer service and discussed with a tech guy. When I asked him about the torque spec he said there isn't one, to just tighten them "white knuckle tight" (HA). I asked him is that white knuckle tight with a 6" or 12" screw driver. That seemed to go right over his head.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 19:15:33 (ZULU)

A more reasonable article about the MD shooter...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,65361,00.html

Dansco <danscott@chocolatefudge.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 19:15:54 (ZULU)

Chris (aka Fatboy):

Tommy Hobbs was just in my office and we were takling about the next 1K at AEDC. I told him I thought it is on the 27th. Is that correct?

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 19:18:05 (ZULU)

I was wondering if i could get your opinions on a good hunting rifle?

A friend took me hunting last year for my first time and i am now hooked. However at the first of the year when the telecom industry went tits up i cleaned out the gun safe to get the bills paid down incase i got laid off. The wife has given her blessing on replacing my guns by i'm limited to 2. I will be mostly shooting under 200 yards but there are 2 powerlines and a 300 acre clear cut where 400+ yard shots are possible, so an accurate rifle is important. I was looking at a LTR since i will normally be shooting out of a 4x4 stand so the 20" barrel will come in handy. I've seen some for sale both fluted and unfluted barrels and was wondering which would be the better way to go? I've seen you guys talking about the quality of remingtons lately and didnt know if i'd be wasting my money on one.

As my 2nd rifle i was looking to get another AR since i sold both my LEO carbines. What is your opinion on the AR-10T's? The .223's were good for target shooting back in texas but since i may need it for hunting if the wife comes the .308 is the better choice. I have had no experience with Armalite rifles so i figured i'd get the concensus from you guys.

Your input and recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

Ty Warren <ty36608@aol.com>
mobile, AL, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 20:13:49 (ZULU)

Ty, I just happen to have an UNFLUTED FROM THE FACTORY LTR. However, it is an anomoly and not a standard item. The box it came in was labeled a Tactical Response Rifle or something similiar but the wife tossed the box when we moved last year (I wanted to strangle her).

I figure Remington either forgot to flute it and changing a label was easier than re-setting up a machine OR it was a special run item for somebody.

Regardless, it is not a cut off PSS but I have never seen another one before or since. It is for sale and is SOLD pending funds from a Rosterfarian. I am selling it only because I have an AI I have to scope.

I will give you a shout if the deal falls through for some reason. The little rascal shooooots !

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 20:39:42 (ZULU)

Steve

YGM

ref. birthday card

Daniel Flores <savage10fp@yahoo.com>
ca, usa - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 20:52:44 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Check your emails. Ignore my lacks of skills with the English language, and read the intent.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 21:01:00 (ZULU)

Brian,

Yours in the 2nd that i have ever heard of. There is a place in dallas that the department i used to work for purchased all our firearms from. He said he has one also but it was the only one he'd ever seen, unfortunately it too is sold pending funds. But definitely let me know if that sale falls through!!

Later

Ty Warren <Ty36608@aol.com>
Mobile, AL, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 21:01:14 (ZULU)

BRogers,

Tell the missus I'll try to come up with Volume Two of the Mildot Master......she must be getting tired of reading Volume One over and over (the plot's a little weak).

Boltster,

I'm still trying to figure out how I got selected. I somehow doubt that Mr. Daley is very proficient with a mildot reticle.

Have to go now and "peddle" some more calculators.

Wonder if Mr. Daley knows that I've "peddled" them to US Army (std. issue with the M24 SWS Accessory Kit), Navy, DoE, FBI HRT, ATF, a long ton of US (and foreign) LE agencies, and Special Forces from Canada, UK, Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany, Australia.........it's a long list.

LE and Military personnel to whom I have "peddled" this device are daily risking their lives to make this country (and all others that love liberty) safe, and to protect his right to print his article.

Best Regards,

And God Bless America

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 21:46:48 (ZULU)

Ty,

If you're limited to buying just two rifles, why consider an LTR AND an AR10(T)? Both very similar in .308. I've never seen a non-fluted LTR - was it older or newer pruduction? Just curious as I have an LTR .308 (fluted) and bought it when I think they first came out. I was lucky, other than a trigger group that was full of some black oily gunk and machining trash which I had to clean out before the trigger would adjust ('litos' method in SC) I've had very good performance from it. I use it as a bad-weather big game rifle also!

I'm also considering an AR10(T) for the future, but thankfully for now I'm not limited to purchasing just two. I've heard that there were some QC problems with them, but haven't researched any further -yet.

Sinister Dave seems to like them, I think.

JT,

No argument about the Corps initial rejection of the M1 in favor of the '03 until jungle warefare changed their minds. Hell, they even rejected their own sniper rifle (M1941) version of the '03 in favor of the Armys' 1903A4 rifle because of the tropics (and I have the facts)!

You're still out to lunch with your statements regarding the Sedgely barrels. It's hard for anyone who is truly familiar with this history to begin to believe that a ship vs. ship rifle match was won by a ships team using Sedgely barreled match rifles in 1919 when - 1) the R.F. Sedgely Co. didn't accept and complete a contract to build REPLACEMENT barrels for the USMC until WWII. Most were date stamped 1944. 2) All ORIGINAL USMC M1941 sniper rifles and 1903A1 NM rifles were assembled at the USMC Philadelphia Armory using Springfield Armory receivers and Star Gauged barrels. Most sniper rifles were NM rifles diverted to sniper use. These Star Gauged barrels may or may not have dates that match the ser. no. range on the receivers, but NONE are Sedgely and NONE are stamped USMC. The Sedgely barrels made for the USMC are strictly replacement barrels, and as that, are only run-of-the-mill field replacement parts no better and no worse than those manufactured by Springfield, Remington, Rock Island Armory, or High Standard (for Smith-Corona).

Anecdotal evidence is usually incorrect, as exemplified by the old WW1 vet who used to regale the neighborhood kids about the accuracy and power of that "30-30" he was issued in the Army to fight the Huns. Sometimes when things get posted as facts on this site (and some others like it) many people - mostly lurkers - accept these statements as gospel. There are enough bad "facts" going around already, especially with this unwanted bad publicity (which I know that you have nothing to do with), but being absolutely clear on the particular facts as discussed in this post would be highly appreciated by many '03 collectors all over the country. There are certainly enough fakes, counterfeits, and bad wives tales circulating already. This is my last rant on this particular subject, and I will not continue it further, unless requested to respond to a question, so fire away if you need the last salvo!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 21:58:41 (ZULU)

Kev, got the box today (thanks!). Still waiting on the shootin' iron to get to the dealer.

Mike M, I had to reload the software on my computer and dumped everything. Send me that address again and the hat and a T-shirt are on the way!

AR-10Ts? Oh, yeah, I like them. I understand George Gardner's are the heat.

George, just got a copy of the November Gun World at the PX. Woo-Hoo! Good job George, Eric, and Marty --good looking Bolt Action Homeland Defense Rifles!!!

Rod Ryan had an excellent response in his Fox News interview -- very professional (from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,65361,00.html):

It's Easy to Be a Sniper, Experts Say

Thursday, October 10, 2002

By Liza Porteus

"The West Virginia-based Storm Mountain Training Center requires civilians to get background checks from local police department, plus a reference letter from an "upstanding person of the community" such as a doctor, priest, or police chief.

"Nobody gets in here without a clean background," said Storm Mountain President Rodney Ryan, who said the center has been "cussed out hundred of times" by civilian applicants frustrated with the security procedures."

Find this nut and whack this guy, Smokies!

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 22:28:43 (ZULU)

Alan;

I have a question about the M1903. Didn't Sedgely first become involved with the '03 by making sporter rifles in the 1920-30's? I can't remember the story on that.

I don't remember seeing anything about any special barrels being made for the 1903. Not even for the 03A4. Is that correct?

I have a Springfield M1903 Mark I with a High Standard barrel marked 8-44. I've been told by some collectors these were the best barrels. I tend to think there's probably not much difference in any of the brands. It shoots pretty good. I just gotta find a load it really likes.

JT;

May I ask who you quoted? Your response was somewhat impressive, but it would be nice to know the source. That will give some credibility to your post.

I've started collecting 1903's and would like to know the source. I may want to add it to my library.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 22:43:10 (ZULU)

Don Smith,

As Ed McMahon would say," You are correct sir !! Ha HA,," The 27th of October.

RE: Mr. Daly,

It would seem that as scathing and loathful as Mr. Daly was towards our board, he has done somthing that MOST of the newer members aren't respectful enough to do, he READ THE ARCHIVES......

Marius,

For someone who wasn't raised and educated here, you have a superb way with the english language and your writing is far better than my own. I must say, "thank you" again to yourself Ken, Sarge, PeteR and Scott for the work you guys put into the success of this site.

Sinister Dave,

You gonna make the regional Long range shoot at Oak Ridge the 19th and 20th?

FatBoy...

aka. Chris Hayes

Sniper Country Member since 1999

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 22:54:12 (ZULU)

I applaud the Sniper Country Staff for posting the response to the MD murders in an attempt to educate non-shooters on who we are and what we do.

As I began writing this, I answered the phone and it was my sister. She and I talked a bit and then she asked me how I felt about all the trouble down in the States. She wanted my opinion as she knows I'm a shooting enthusiast who enjoys "black guns" among other things.

I told her that the person(s) committing these murders were not snipers in any since of the word. I also told her that I believed that he/she is a coward who probably wouldn't have the balls to take their own life if cornered by law enforcement.

She understood when I told her that the media was looking to hype the situation in order to sell more magazines, newspapers, and air time and they were in essence feeding this guy(s) ego and helping him live his fantasy by giving them the attention that they crave.

I hope you non-shooting people visiting this site take an opportunity to get a grip on yourselves and stop blamming others, like us, for the sick bastards that do stuff like this. None of my friends on this site would have anything to do with murder and probably have a better respect for human life than most others.

Oh, and one more thing. Stop listening to that whinning pussy, Tom Diaz, of the Violence Policy Center. He wears womens undergarments and should apologize to all of us for having a dick. I hear his mamma still makes his dinner for him as well.

Ta,Ta ladies...

Jeff Babineau <jtnd@tru.eastlink.ca>
Kanada - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 23:27:01 (ZULU)

Get ready for an influx of registration requests. We made Inside Edition. Of course Sniper's Paradise got all the glory, but we hung right in there.

"Sniper Subculture" my ass. Guess we need new T-shirts. Maybe "Long Range Subculture"?

Marius, your response was most excellent! Very clear and to the point. A computer is just like a TV or radio, no one is forcing anyone to visit here.

And to those that are bound to visit us, be advised that you will not find a group of people in the world more interested in wanting that bastard/s caught than the people that post here. You will not find a group of people in the world that would volunteer our time to help catch him. All most of us need is an invite. The majority of us here are not military or law enforcement snipers. We simply enjoy the sport of long range shooting. Most of us here are not even qualified to carry a true sniper's gear.

If you happen to be privileged enough to successfully register here, please keep in mind that your motives will become crystal clear with your first post. We do not argue with people that don't like our sport. We simply ignore them. Do not think you will come here and get us in a pissing contest. It will not happen. You have your sports and interests, we have ours.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 23:44:27 (ZULU)

Just saw Inside Edition, Its offical one of use is doing the shootings, Sniper Country in the focus.We are a cult now!

Durand Wilson <wilsondl@fmctc.com>
Manilla, Iowa, U.S. - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 23:49:06 (ZULU)

Michael, George gives you free t shirts right??????????? LOL

Ty - Buy an Eagle Ar-10A4 and send it to George with a check and you will get back an AR-10T as they are supposed to perform. The Stock Ar-10's are fine rifles, it is just that the T's from the factory don't shoot any better than the A4's, which is about 1 MOA. The crap you hear about reliability is garbage from in experienced users. They are no more fragile than their little brothers. If you get one I have a mag modification tot he feed lips that makes things work more smoothly.

Guys, we are being fired upon so it is time to stand tall, with the high degree of honor, courage, and professionalism we possess. It is not our first time under fire and it won't be the last, and for the sake of the Republic we must stay the course. Marius and the staff have handled this professionaly and should be commended for their work.

Take care

Titan <hatherly1@comcast.net>
Keep "Under God" right where it is!!!!, Michigan, United States of America - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 00:33:25 (ZULU)

Let me get this straight. The Violence Policy Center says any gun referred to as "Sniper" or "Tactical" should be banned. Like the .22s and pellet rifles used by the military sniper schools? And every magazine-fed centerfire deer and varmint hunting rifle in America?

Chris, won't be shooting at Oak Ridge. Deploying to Algeria. Two more of my soldiers head out to Afghanistan soon.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 00:45:32 (ZULU)

Hello,

First time poster, long time lurker.

The Sniper Country's response to the Maryland Murders is both appropriate and appreciated by this reader. Thanks for expressing how alot feel about this situation.

Back to lurker mode.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen <karen@execpc.com>
Milwaukee, WI, U.S.A.!!!! - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 00:46:43 (ZULU)

Hello all,

Sorry I'm here to bug you all again. First I'd like to thank you all for the info that you guys put on this website. This is a place where I can get straight answers from people who know what they are talking about. I would also like to say that I will support this site in any way that I can, just name it and I will try, be it letters to the news paper or calling the radio station. I for one am a law abiding citizen like all of you and the media wants to make ALL gun owners look like savages.

My questions this eavening is if there are any high prescision shooting courses in southern california? I would like to take one before I enter the academy for corrections which will be roughly in a year. My neighbor is a federal prison gaurd and he told me that they lost most of thier sharp shooters because they all went to be air marshalls. I was hoping to fill a spot at his prison.Ive been told that in case of a riot that goes out of control, Ive been told that the sharp shooters are a key element to the protection of the other federal officers. He told me that if the shit really hits the fan, the officers gather in the center of the yard and the sharp shooters keep them safe by preventing the inmates from getting to them. I dont know how accurate this is but since Ive been trying to get up to competition standards, I might try to see if this part of the job picks me.

Thanks

p.s. Anyone else notice the server being a little laggy lately?

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 00:48:03 (ZULU)

"Virtue Non Verbis"

"De Oppresso Liber"

To those who would attack us:

Think on these words and do not attack lightly. As they are words that many of us here at SC live by... And may die by to protect that which you hold so dear... yet understand so little. Your freedoms, your ways of life,(varied as they may be)are granted and guaranteed by those who devote thier time and energies and thier very lives at times, so that you have the opportunity to live your life as you see fit. To keep you safe and free from those who would eviscerate our very culture for thier own benifit. And take your freedom for thier own.

Ghillie6

out

ghillie6 <ghillie6@hotmail.com>
USofA (for now), - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 00:56:27 (ZULU)

Well,

If the needle dick geek running around getting his rocks off shooting helpless civvies hadnt visited SC before he is bound to now with all of the publicity.

I guess if you want to be picky I guess the idiot is a "sniper", but he is a criminal sniper. We are living history here as this loser will be known along with Whitman, Oswald etc. I for one could have done without the experience.

Come on dude. Suck on the barrel! Or how about leaving more clues. The death card was so cliche. Very amaturish. How about posting on here with a clue to your next shooting...yeah. That would be cool. But with that penis envy problem of yours you probably dont have the guts.

Anyway. Lessons learned for those that care:

I have a student shooting an FN SPR A3 this week. Great rifle. Easily less than .5 moa shooting Fed 168gr. I think they are a good deal. Would be better with an HS stock I think but still a great gun. BUT also have 2 guys shooting Rem M700 Police rifles. ALSO shooting about .5 moa. Lots of 1 hole groups at 50-75 yards. I would like to think the instructor may have something to do with it but these guns can shoot off the shelf.

Students without AO scopes wish they had AO scopes.

Students are all police snipers by the way.

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 01:01:31 (ZULU)

Lawmakers Urge FTC to Probe Sniper Weapon Sales

Several Democratic lawmakers on Thursday urged the Federal Trade Commission to investigate the marketing of military sniper rifles to civilians, noting that such a weapon may be involved in the recent Washington area shootings.

Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee (news - web sites), and three fellow House Democrats wrote in a letter to the FTC that sniper weapons are different from standard hunting rifles because they are designed to strike a target from a distance.

"Their accuracy and range capabilities make these weapons among the most dangerous available today," the lawmakers said. "They can hit targets accurately one mile away and can inflict damage to targets up to four miles away."

Conyers noted that the FTC did a study of entertainment industry marketing practices and violence after the Columbine school shootings in 1999.

Gun control advocates gained momentum in Congress immediately after several publicized shootings in U.S. schools but foes of new controls were able to defeat the initiatives.

Dean Miller <ar15dcm@bellsouth.net>
Buford, GA, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 01:24:33 (ZULU)

Remember what happened with napster? Hardly anyone in the world new what an MP3 was but after the recod companies tried to sue and napster got so puch press, the whole world started getting thier music for free and now its a problem that cant be controlled. With the "sniper" in maryland, the press is showing all these websites to the public, now they just led people who are deranged to a wealth of information, and they will probobly use that as an excuse take this site off the web or start banning guns because now everyone knows what about certain site infos and what long guns can do and people are ignorant enough to want the false sense of security so they can go about thier live thinking nothing bad can happen again.

P.S. if this is repeated, sorry, my browsers been really messed up latly.

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 01:28:25 (ZULU)

The opinions of SC as stated in the notice on the main page are exactly right on with mine. Although I may appear a bit frivilous at times. It is a reflection of my disgust with the current onslaught against the so called Sniper Community. That includes the guy who e-mailed me taunting... and the answer to you sir is....Yes and Hell yes, I can hit a Jelley Bean at 100 yards and it doesn't matter what flavor. Even an M&M if you'd like a demo I'll see what I can do. It's amazing how little you folks out there know about this subject.

We are indeed under fire and we accept the heat. It was bound to happen sooner or later that somebody cut loose on the world with a high power rifle with a randomness that can't be busted overnight, (perhaps better than a bombing like the Israeli's have to face every day). You wimps need to quit whining and learn to live in this world and be prepared for whatever happens, cause you ain't likely seen nothing yet. Just think how helpless you would be if this Sniper was the only one that had a rifle. Maybe you would prefer the Police had mace and didn't know how to shoot.

We (of this "cult") would be prepared to hunt this character with the pop gun down and end this for you but for the fact that you would likely wet yourselves if you saw one of us lying prone in your park in our customary attire. The Maryland/DC police would never be able to deal with all your 911 hysteria that would cause. Know that you have competent Law Enforcement people there to deal with it, but it takes time to bust a Sniper folks. That's why the word "Sniper" is so loathsome to you. It's hard to deal with the randomness of this operator, so have patience and don't look for easy answers. The lone rifleman with no pattern of operation is the deadliest form of Terrorist when it comes to catchin up with him. Meanwhile don't play in the middle of the parking lot or lounge around on the park bench. There will always be Snipers in the woods folks and there always have been.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 02:04:06 (ZULU)

Note to all you new visitors: There is no difference between a "Sniper Rifle", a "Varmint Rifle" and many common hunting rifles.

>>"Their accuracy and range capabilities make these weapons among the most dangerous available today," the lawmakers said.

That statement is simply not true. Common deer rifles like the .30-'06, .270 or .280 have greater range and power than does the .308 used by the US military as a sniper round. Hunting rifles like the 7mmRem, 7mmWby, .300Win, .300WSM, .300Wby, .338Win or any of a half a hundred others have FAR more power and FAR greater range. Any of those rifles are capable of greater accuracy than any but a very, very few shooters are capable of utilizing. The Maryland killer certainly has no such skill.

>>"They can hit targets accurately one mile away and can inflict damage to targets up to four miles away."

Some of the gentlemen who post here are very highly skilled police and military snipers. NONE OF THEM are capable of using these rifles to hit human targets at anything approaching a mile. Under field conditions, a man-sized target at half that distance is a spectacular shot. Not one shooter in five hundred could use one of these rifles to hit a human at a quarter that distance. At four miles you couldn't be sure of hitting a medium sized mountain. The gentlemen of the House are ill-informed.

Sinister Dave: Godspeed and good luck. Come back successful and come back healthy.

Bill Rogers: It is disresepecful for me to call a man of your extremely advanced age and new found fame something as undignified as "Jelly Bean." From now on I'll use something more appropriate. Do you prefer "Crotchety old buzzard" or "Cantankerous old coyote bait?"

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 02:26:16 (ZULU)

Subject: News Media and the "Sniper" Killings in the Wash DC Area.

As a former Army Vietnam combat vetran and Washington DC police officer, I extend my deepest regrets to the families of the victims of these senseless murders by a deranged person or persons.

Hunters and the competitive precision target shooting community should not be victims of the "News Media Shark Feeding Frenzy".

I aggree 100 percent with the staff of "Sniper Country" in their commentary about the recient events in the news.

All of us would defend this country, fellow citizens and way of life and probably has. Reading anything on this site would not make a person want to go out and take innocent lives. I've been posting and reading for over a year. A person would have to be mentaly sick or an enemy of the State(US). We are not the enemy, we are the defenders.

The news media is barking up the wrong tree to get attention.

Rambosky

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 03:01:34 (ZULU)

I don't know what these folks is smokin', but it must be GOOD stuff.

Give'm Hell Marius! and Thanks for all you, Sarge, PeteR, Scott, etc., do.

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!! - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 03:07:24 (ZULU)

Actually I kinda liked the Jelly Bean thing (kind of Hollywood you know), till that guy thought I was kiddin about usin em for targets. So.. "Crotchety Old Coyote Bait" is both truthful accurate and to the point. It has a nice ring and the chicks will dig it I'm sure. If only I could get that skunk scent out of my double breasted camo suit in time for the Senior Citizens Bingo and Hodown. Whoops I forgot.. never say Hodown to a bunch of Snipers. I saw ABC ...Oh boy, Now I belong to a Cult... my Grandma would love that, she always wanted me to go to Church!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 03:16:47 (ZULU)

Hogs,

I just got my email from Marius. I went to the SC Main Page to read the Official SC response to the shootings in Maryland.

Marius,

You have a way with words no matter the language. Don't change. Nobody could have done any better. Your words reminded me just how much I value this site. The members of this site are some of the most dedicated individuals in the country. Most have served this country in the military, or in law enforcement. Many others are civilian long range competitors that serve by sharing their knowledge with working snipers so that they have the most knowledge, and the best skills to save lives.

It bothers me that the media insists on calling the murderer in Maryland a sniper. He's no more a sniper than some gang-banger with a stolen 9mm firing into a crowd of people. We got no way of knowing how many times he's missed, or if the people he shot were actually his intended targets. How many times did he say "oh shit, wrong one"?

I have no doubt that the LEO's in the DC area will get this guy. It's what they do best.

Best Regards,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 03:36:08 (ZULU)

Hawgs -

Hang in there - run clean and true as you have done in the past. The 'bottom feeders' will try hard - but won't find any dirt.

HotMail users - WTF folks - the hotmail emailservers are crapping the bed. Man o man. Marius- we have roughly 100 Hotmail hawgs that can't get your announcement. It will keep trying. You hotmail hawgs get hold of the mail admins and tell them to unscrew their mailservice.

Also - I will be scrubbing the registry - of all those emails that bounced as 'no such user', etc.

Remember folks - if you want to register to post - your email addy must be current. Yes - we do check.

Them there lawmakers can just turn their 'ban-o-matic's somewhere else. How about banning parental incompetence, or idiots in society in general. The failure and responsibility for these trajeties is on the wacko and him alone. No one else.

I was asked earlier today "So are you gonna shut the site down?" Uhh... not only no - hell no!

Take care out there,

PS: Sinister Dave - Stay Safe, God speed, Hold hard.

Semper Fi,

Ken :)

ken hunter <ken@hunters.org>
God's Country, Northern Va , USofA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 03:48:12 (ZULU)

jody clearly you can tell i didnt write that since. my grammer is a far cry from that the article was only listed as dave and his mill rank and yrs of service it was a piece of a greater write up , if you would like the url i will re find it and post it i believe its a piece of some kind of 1903 message board , i found it weeks ago when doing my normal snooping about the web reading info and history

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 04:16:40 (ZULU)

http://www.jouster.com/lanestips/sedgely.html <thar

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 04:30:34 (ZULU)

Jody,

Sedgely became known for his sporter conversions of the '03 during the 1930's. An especially popular model was his innovative .22 Hornet conversion. Remember, factory bolt action centerfire rifles were pretty much non-existant until the mid to late thirties.

Sedgely did something awful to his loyal public after WWII, and that has tarnished the reputation of his name for many enthusiasts and sportsmen!

Sniper barrels for the '03 series rifles. In the early production days at Springfield Armory the production machinery and methods were primitive when compared to modern methods. The 'Star Gauge' method of testing the accuracy of bore machining was adopted. Certain lots out of various production runs were picked out for testing. The barrels that rated highest on the testing scale were then stamped with a * at the 6 o'clock position of the muzzle crown. (Star Gauge testing accomplished what Air Gauging is used for in modern times).

Most of these barrels were put right back on the production line to eventually become part of our standard service rifle - the 1903. A few went to the DCM for parts sales. Some went to a seperate line at Springfield to be used on the NM (National Match) rifles for target competition. A number were made into the US Army issue sniper rifle, and a few NM rifles were converted to sniper rifles by USMC armorers at the Philadelphia Armory. There were no specially made barrels for any 1903 series sniper rifle. Their barrels were just the best of the lot - no different materials or processes were used. Also, they were all of Springfield Armory manufacture.

The Marine Sniper Rifle (M1941) was made as described above. During WWII our manufacturing methods improved rendering the need for the Star Gauge process moot. The vast majority of US Army sniper rifles (M1903A4) didn't have Star Gauged barrels by this time, and many of them had two-groove barrels because of production costs and speed of manufacture. They were, in most cases, at least as accurate as their more costly four-groove brethren. All of these (M1903A4) rifles were produced by Remington Arms Co. as Springfield had shut down the '03 line by this time, and sent their production equipment to other plants.

To conclude, there were only two barrel manufacturers for the sniper variants of this rifle - Springfield Armory for the M 1903 Army and Marine rifles and the M1903A1 and M1941 USMC rifles, and Remington Arms Co. for the US Army 1903A4. Any other barrel variations found on these models would have been installed in the field by the Military during rebuild, or by a private citizen after acqusition.

Thats the story, and I'm sticking to it,

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 04:33:56 (ZULU)

I reference to that, child killing, mudering coward in Maryland. I am afraid that when they do catch him, if they aren't fortunate enough to hit him with a long lasting but lethal gut shot, the liberals of that state are most likely to, after coviction ( if they get one )Will plead to send him for treatment instead of to death, because his Mommy spanked him too hard when he was a child, or his Daddy kicked his ass when needed a little too hard,or a bad teacher, a molestation when he was a child. They will have excuses by the gross. they will blame anyone or any thing, but him. Guns, gun dealers, gun shows. If they would convict him, give him the death penalty, and make the news media sensationalize the execution like they do the murders,I'll bet a lot of these cowards would think twice before pulling a trigger the next time. We must make these people exept responsibility for what they have done,and carry out the sentance with the "POWERFULL AND SWIFT SWORD"! Thats my thought. Semper Fi, Swamp Rat, Out

Swamp Rat <Thorekim@aol.com>
Pell City, Alabama, U.S.A. - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 04:42:29 (ZULU)

"Like every U.S. citizen, I was shocked and revolted beyond comprehension by the attack on our nation last week. We need to do everything within our power to find the responsible persons and parties, bring them to justice and end the blight of terrorism.

"At the same time, we must all remember that just as this horrendous act can destroy us from without, it can also destroy us from within. Historically, it has been at times of inflamed passions and national anger that our civil liberties proved to be at greatest risk, and the unpopular group of the moment was subject to prejudice and deprivation of liberty."

-- Rep. John Conyers, Washington Post, September 19th, 2001

It seems the good Congressman is much more solicitous of foreigners than he is of American Citizens exercising their constitutional rights.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 04:43:19 (ZULU)

Mike; I got with a Bal Coeff. 1.1 all the way. SMK is .760 but it would be way below these figures. I didn't have Lapua BCs/to refer too.

1500 39.75

1600 44.25

1700 49.00

1800 44.25

1900 59.50

2000 65.00

7500' Elevation????? I ain't even gonna ask!

Bruce; Right between Gone with the Wind and Moby Dick on my book shelf! Let me know when Mil Dot 2. Hits the publisher.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 05:09:31 (ZULU)

alan it seems that the name sedgly randomly pops up all over in the springfields history . and like i said i could not confirm nor deny its happening and asked anyone with greater knowledge to please add to it.From what ive read here. and from what ive been told by vets.i see 2 very different stories and a 3rd that involves sedgly. The men ive spoken to seem to believe that the 1903 a3 with barrels made by smith corona were and are the 03 to have from what theese men have said the smith barrels were above and beyons the rem ones and there accuracy was outstanding. as for the sedgly's non of the men i spoke too have ever heard of his little shop. and the only sedglies ive personally seen were sporters.But since i wasnt there i couldnt say for sure. your explination sounds logical.

also why are Ducks Unlimited and Peta in the same sentence in the statement on the maryland tragity. the way its written it will lead non informed people to believe Du and peta are the same type of organization , thats like compairing the up standing the members of this board to the loose cannon in maryland. Maby in my lack of literairy knowledge this is what the article says amd o, botching it up. can somone clarify the meaning of it. Because Du deserves no negative press. Just like the fellows here do not deserve to be compaired to that side show act in maryland 1 bit

lito . have you recieved that mail yet? im having huge technical difficulties with this machine. Mails arent getting to people attachments arent actually being sent with the mails.Incoming mails have been not reliable.Im unsure if its my isp , my computer or my outlook express mail program at this time

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 05:37:24 (ZULU)

On the liberals wanting to save this guy, I wouldnt be surprised if that really happend. I take this college corrections class and the instructer there tells us how no one can plede guilty in america anymore. If some crackpot kills a room full of people, represents himself, and pleads guilty with a big (take me out back and shoot me) attitude, some attorny will practically apear out of no where and state that what he did, and his plea is nothing a "sane" person would do. After firing proving to each lawyer that he is sane and try to cancel out the appeals that everyone is trying to file on his behalf will justice have been served. I dont know if all this is true, this is just what my teacher says.

Maddog5150- a law abiding gun owner who belongs to the NRA <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 06:49:01 (ZULU)

Jon B...

I got an annealing kit from the Woodchuck Den about 2 years ago... it was about $45-50, and I was disappointed in it. It worked "OK" but slow and crude.

I recently bought an Oxy-acetylene rig, with a "Ring burner"... these have 5 to 8 flame holes in a circular arrangement. It was pricy to just do annealing... but I have many other uses for it, so it was time to get it.

The kit from Woodchucks Den is OK if you are doing a few hundred... but I have thousands and thousands, including 2,500 50BMG cases to do this winter :((

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 11:18:33 (ZULU)

To the staff of SNIPER COUNTRY,the response to the MD murders is very eloquent and to the point. I am proud to be associated with this group of people that I share a common interest with.

My heart goes out to the people of Maryland and especially to those that have lost loved ones and friends.

I know this is too much to hope for because it has already started but,I hope the kneejerk reaction to this is not to put more restrictions on law abiding,tax paying citizens. I hope when this derranged person is caught he is punished to the fullest extent of the law and not plea barganed away to a slap on the wrist.

Thank you for this excellent site.

TonyM

TonyM <tam308@aol.com>
FL, US of A!!!!!! - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 12:03:26 (ZULU)

JT: RE the reference to peta and Ducks Unlimited in the same sentence. I suggest you get a dictionary and look up the word disparate. Man you need to start looking before you leap.

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 13:46:38 (ZULU)

Reference the Hotmail e-mails "bouncing". I have my mail filters set high. Most e-mails that don't pass the filters get deleted.

Does this cause the sender to see the e-mail "bounce"?

Thanks

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 14:01:05 (ZULU)

Marius and Council, et al,

Outstanding response to our would-be detractors and current confused citizenery. Thank you all for your efforts, past, present and future. I think all new registrants' names and emails should be forwarded to Larry Pratt for inclusion in his outstanding monthly membership drive newsletter. We may generate a few converts to our "club". I know you wouldn't, but it's the thought that counts, right?

To the families and friends of victims in Maryland; You have my most sincere and deepest sympathies. The pain you experience is shared in some way with us all.

To the residents of DC and the surrounding area; Be observant, check the parking lot as you pull in, look around before you get out of the car. Be aware of your surroundings. If he can see you, you can probably see him. Vigilance on your part will be his ultimate demise, whether it be LE or civilian.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 14:03:44 (ZULU)

Guys,

Just now saw a piece on Fox news (who I generally respect more than the others) about guns chambered for .223. The guest had their model numbers and a little chart with pictures of them, for those of us who can't read. One of the rifles on the chart was the old SKS. Not being able to read myself, I had to look at the picture. Sure enough..SKS. Now, I know that some AK variants go for the .223, but the SKS ? Perhaps I don't know all I should about these things, and if I am misinformed, please let me know. I'm thinking, however, that this rifle ain't available in the evil 223. Seems like one should have all their facts straight before going on TV claiming to be an expert. Or, like I mentioned, maybe I don't know all there is to know...but I ain't on TV as a "firearms expert" either. I know this in nit-picking, but misinformation about this subject bugs me.

No wonder I was having trouble getting those 7.62 x 39's chambered in my SKS !

Just wondering...

Aaron <bouser@arkansas.net>
Ark, U.S. of (Smile when you say it) A. - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 14:04:19 (ZULU)

HOGs thanks for all the support. The little tyke will be suprised to say the least.

Sinister Dave, Stay safe, do us proud and come back with all your parts. A neat scar would be cool but don't go out of your way to get it ;)

Speaking as a COP. I hope this coward in Maryland when arrested makes a furtive movement and meets his maker on a slow Ambulance ride to the ER. I know that by now one of his nieghbors is bound to be getting suspicious. Make that call report the nut bird. If your wrong no harm if your right you may have saved some lives.

When do I get my t-shirt?

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 14:05:21 (ZULU)

JT: You're new here. I know that you're just trying to help. It's appreciated, but...you probably saw reruns of the Beverly Hillbillies. Do you remember the one where Jed kept telling Jethro, "Don't help me, boy"?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 14:10:16 (ZULU)

"CDC"

You just brought back a flood of memories. I had my wisdom teeth taken out and was r/r on the couch when that episode ran. I'm still laughin'

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 14:32:17 (ZULU)

This needs to be repeated.

>>Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee (news - web sites), and three fellow House Democrats wrote in a letter to the FTC that sniper weapons are different from standard hunting rifles because they are designed to strike a target from a distance.<<

>>"Their accuracy and range capabilities make these weapons among the most dangerous available today," the lawmakers said. "They can hit targets accurately one mile away and can inflict damage to targets up to four miles away."<<

This kind of activity is usually associated with the irresponsible press...now we have US Representatives repeating the same false facts.

The US military trains its people on how far a weapon is effective and what it is used for... I believe they teach snipers a max distance of around 800-1000 yards for the respective branch standard issue sniper weapon system. That information would be readily available and repeated in the USMC and US Army training doctrine. Why would a US representative spout off what is clearly a massive exaggeration?

Either he didn't take the time to form an opinion based on fact or he is deliberately misleading the public. That is genuinely disconcerting from an elected LAWMAKER.

If the FTC elected to ban all rifles that can accurately hit a man sized target from one mile away, I am unaware of any rifle on the market today that would qualify...

If you ratchet that standard downward, there is a point where all hunting rifles converge.. but the agenda is sniper rifles, right. I guess that points out another piece of mis-information.. sniper rifles are hunting rifles. My tactical competition rifle is a Remington model 700, my hunting rifle is a Remington 700, my bench competition rifle is a Remington model 700...what is the difference? One is painted green and has a different scope on it.

The Maryland shooter is a criminal, If he is willing to commit felony homocide, why would anyone in their right mind think he would obey a new gun law. Criminals can get access to illegal guns, they are available from the same people that bring heroin and other illicit drugs into the country. Gun bans disarm victims, not criminals.

The US Constitution does not contain a 2nd Amendment to protect hunting....the authors were concerned with corrupt government. They wanted to ensure that the government would continue to represent the interests of the people... they wanted to protect all rights of the people. If you disarm the public, who will keep a corrupt government in check... checks and balances, sound familiar?

The Second Amendment to the US Constitution intended the public to be the sole custodian of what is right for the people. It reaffirms the right to keep and bear arms... for the militia, which is defined in Title 10 USC. Sec. 311 as basically all of us. A disarmed public is a helpless public. I for one do not want to be helpless in this time of rampant domestic terrorism.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 15:28:54 (ZULU)

....sorry to report....

Another man shot and now confirmed dead by the Va. Gov's office....happened at a Exxon in Messapontax just south of Fredricksburg off of US95

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 15:44:57 (ZULU)

I just got this from someone on the East coast. WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS MEANT TO BE FUNNY, NO OFFENSE INTENDED TO ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

============================================================

(AP) - The latest ploy to drive the Taliban and Al Qaeda out of the mountains of Afghanistan is to send in a team of South Carolina Special Forces.

Billy Bob, Bubba, Cletus, Scooter, Festus and Cooter are being sent in with the following information about the Taliban:

1. There is no limit.

2. The season opened last weekend.

3. They taste just like chicken.

4. They don't like beer, pickup trucks, country music, or Jesus.

5. Some of 'em's queer.

6. They don't like barbeque.

7. They were responsible for Dale Earnhardt's death.

Should be over in about a week.

====================================================================

I thought it might lighten the mood.............

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 15:50:11 (ZULU)

medicjim,

Isn't it unfortunate that our Founding Fathers didn't include an ammendment to our Constitution that would impeach any member of Congress that deliberately lied on the House or Senate floor especially when making public statements that would be going into the Congressional Record!

But that would probably include most all of them, wouldn't it? Maybe they should all be hooked up to a polygraph or something similar when they stood to address Congress, with the test results flashed on a big screen as they speak, sort of like in a football stadium. How about being dosed with sodium pentathol as they entered the main Chamber? With some of them, the method employed by Sir Laurence Olivier on Dustin Hoffman in the film "The Marathon Man" should be employed!

Come to think of it, THESE METHODS SHOULD BE USED ON THE PRESS AND OTHER FORMS OF ENTERTAINMENT MASQUERADING AS THE NEWS!

I'm only half-kidding. DO YOU COMPREHEND THAT, "REPORTERS"?

While I'm at it, and have come this far, how about accessory to murder penalties to those that aid and abet this murderer by leaking potential clues (such as the Tarot card) that might help prevent another loss of innocent lives?

Rant over, but still ticked off,

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 16:15:19 (ZULU)

Alan.. Unfortunately, the blame lies with "we the people". If the people demand honesty and integrity, both the politicos and the press would be on it in a New York minute.

We the people must be ever diligent, and accept 100% of the blame for the mis-doings of our representatives and our press. Liars and cowards should be fired.

Also, in an earlier post, you mentioned that the Marines after Guadalcanal opted for the 1903A4 over the marine 1903 sniper variant. Why would they do that...I have handled an 03A4 and wouldn't agree that it is superior.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 16:25:21 (ZULU)

Ok, to all lurking to find out if we are crazy folks plotting to kill or harm anyone. Stop it. It took me 10 tries to get the roster to come up. I live in the country and don't have access to high speed conections. So, I am a cop a lot of the others here are cops. Some are EMT's and military folks. you know the same folks you trust every day to hunt terrorists, defend your country, and come to your aid when are injured. Please leave us alone so I can read and post messages to and from my comrades. No commie intent with the comrade thing.

I hope these investigators are smart enough to all ready have check out and talked to folks at ranges in the area. And ask about a loner type in his mid 20's possibly shooting a 223 rifle and maybe working as a painter, plumber or electrician. Or an assisant of same. A van used as a work vehicle is being involed judging by the possible rack on the top and non descript paint job, Plain white. But I could be wrong hopefully they hae looked into these things. Loser boy needs street justice or court room justice soon. I shot on the same range as that wacko from Killeen. At the Fort Hood range. I knew the one time I saw him he was a nut job. Months later we all know what happened.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 17:04:27 (ZULU)

Hey guys,

Couple a questions.

One... just to verify and make sure I have all my stuff together before I order. I gots a PSS in .308 I intend on ordering a LR M3 and Badger 20 MOA base and the max 50 rings. The regular height rings will fit right? Or do I need to get the high rings?

Also, does anyone know of an email addy for David Tubb? the local NBC affiliate ran a little clip on the "amateur sniper subculture" last night. Of course the only "facts" were presented by a guy from the VPC. They showed "sniper country" of course and made no mention of the excellent commentary concerning the shootings here in MD. Nor did they mention that most of the "hawgs" here are retired or current USMC, SF, SWAT etc. I emailed 'em about it and pointed these things out though (in a polite manner). Anyhow, I'm sure Mr. Tubb would be intersted to know that they showed footage of him (without his permission of course)as an example of an "amateur sniper".

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 17:07:53 (ZULU)

Medic Jim, Amen Reverend!

CDC, you’re right. Mudslinging is easy. Mother Theresa could be made to look evil by our current propaganda system. On the quote, I copied it from my planner. Since I don’t estimate those that publish weekly quotes in planners as truly literate, I’ll defer to you. Still, you have to admit, it sounds like Papa Hemingway.

Gooch, how about this “But the worst o’ your foes is the sun over’ead, You –MUST- wear your ‘elmet for all that is said, if ‘e finds you uncovered ‘e’ll knock you down dead, an’ you’ll die like a fool of a soldier”. And you got the last verse almost verbatim.

Steve, shoot me the address. And, as the kittywhacker suggested, an interest.

For you music types, try Hank Williams III.

Andy’s Dad, you forgot to mention that he refused knighthood twice for his works (unlike Sir Elton John HA!). Yeah, I’m a Kipling fan, so sue me.

Dave, best of luck over there, know that we’re all here behind you in support of your efforts to keep our country, as it is, great.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 17:10:59 (ZULU)

Latest Va shooting- gee, if I hadn't run the tractor out of fuel moving manure, I'd have been driving past the site about the time of the incident. Supposedly multiple subjects in the vehicle so psycho starts getting somewhat less likely. Possible, but less likely.

State Police are grouped around about every I-95 exit that exists. Stopped to talk to one on the way to buy fuel and found that 3 of them were sitting there in their cruisers, windows up, stereos wailing and talking on privately owned cell phones. Chances of seeing/hearing anything? ZIP!

Extreme range of X miles- I've run into this in the past. It stems (I think, have some WWI era manuals with really strange extreme range tables) from an ancient military measurement of range at which the bullet will still have at least 60 ft/lbs of energy and therefore can be considered capable of inflicting a wound. As a result, there are a vast number of people-including some hunters/shooters who should know better-who actually believe accurate aimed fire at those ranges is possible or that such a thing could occur without truly wierd circumstances.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 18:16:30 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just a quick rant before going to work. This morning I was coming home after doing a little morning stalking practice with a friend who is LE. As I was taking my rifle case and ghillie out of his car, my neighbor came up to me and flatly told me that it was people like me who should feel responsible for this serial "sniper" and that if guns were illegal, this would not be happening. I was tired, wet, because there was a tropical storm moving through our area and not in the mood to hear this crap first thing in the morning. Since my wife and kids were coming out of the house and getting ready to go to school I decided to not say anything. My wife on the other hand had other ideas. She has always been outspoken, and today was no different. After informing her(the neighbor from hell) that all the members of our family were avid shooters and that none of us had a criminal record unlike her and her husband who almost always have a police car in front of their house to to domestic problems, she started to go into her family lineage. At this point, my friend the police officer decided it was time to break things up. While he was trying not to laugh, he sent my wife and kids off with a wave. He then went on to inform the neighbor and her very embarrassed looking husband that I am former military, and not a person responsible for these atrocities. He also let her know that if she started any trouble because of this morning, she could face more legal problems than she already had. We went inside and laughed about the whole thing while her husband got her inside after apologizing profusely.

I swear this is one more reason for me to sell my house, and I should probably just consider where the criticism was coming from and let it go. But I just had to vent to people who share similar feelings about this subject.

Sorry for the long rant, back to lurking for now.

Marc

Marc Ingram <snarl@coastalnow.net>
Hinesville , GA, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 18:49:27 (ZULU)

I have read allitle cross talk on the 6.5 308 and 260. I am considering buidling a 6.5 308 for 600 yard competition and maybe graduating out farther. I need good knock down potential (24 pound plates) and I want a caliber that will buck the wind with the least amount of drop.

Am I on the right track with this caliber and if so what action would you guys recommend. I have only built 308 cal rifles on remington actions. Should I consider a different caliber? Keeping in mind that the competiton I want this gun for does not allow magnums.

I served in Germany many moons ago and had my share of bad guys to watch out for, I am glad I found this web sight, reading your cross talk is great.

Hope to hear from some of you on your recommendations for my new rifle.

Trent Norman <tnorman@clearsource.net>
Odessa, Texas, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 19:20:58 (ZULU)

UnDude...

>"Been working on balistic tables for 338 Lapua with 300 Grain SMK at 2800 fps, 7500 elevation, 300 yard zero and 59-90 degrees temp. Don't believe the results of my balistic program and wnat to croos check. I get the following in MOA, based on 300 yard zero.

1500 = 39.5

1600 = 44.25

1700 = 49.5

1800 = 54.5

1900 = 60.0

2000 = 66.0

All this is in yards at 59 degrees.

Please give me your results.

I got the same.

Wonder where one could shoot a .338 Lap at 7,500??? Could it be... Naw, the hotel food and out houses there really suck ;))

Hold tight, and hang loose... Good luck, and God's speed!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 19:43:42 (ZULU)

j.a. kris <jaklink@epix.net>
harrisburg, pa, usa - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 20:03:15 (ZULU)

<Snip>...

Under protest!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 20:55:07 (ZULU)

Hogs,

Thanks for all the feedback, and kind words - it is all much appreciated. This little diversion is taking a all of my time (includiung some sleeping time), which is basically spent reading and responding (or not) to emails, instead of working on more important things for the site.

There is just one point which I need to clear - I cannot take credit for somebody else's work. The contents of the letter was mine - I take full blame for that :-) However, the contents of the official response off the front-page is the work of our esteemed colleague and fire-breathing friend, Scott Powers. Remember, I am Afrikaans, Enlgish is only my second language. My paltry grasp of the English vernacular would not allow me such eloquence. (And that comes out of a joke email I'll post someday.)

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, Republic of South Africa - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:09:55 (ZULU)

'lito

<Snip>...

Under protest!

Decided not to feed the troll, uh? (Double HA)

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:18:09 (ZULU)

Master Kung foo sniper?

Nah, the more you look at that post, looks like Captain Caveman...Unga Bunga

Eyes are on us folks, let's weed 'em out..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:19:56 (ZULU)

Don...

>"Decided not to feed the troll, uh? (Double HA)"<

Naw... Pappa PeteR rapped my knucles with a ruler :((

He was a Nun in an earlier life ;))

I'll e-mail you a copy ;)))

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:21:24 (ZULU)

Owing to our new found and unwanted notoriety, we should expect to see a lot of new faces. Many will not be equipped with foreheads.

Pablo: CC me that, will you?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:34:28 (ZULU)

CDC

New faces - not yet...

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, Republic of South Africa - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:53:27 (ZULU)

Marius,

Do you know of a David Dodds and Peter Bramley from South Africa? They took second at the commonwealth games team LR shoot.. Met those guys at Bisley, along with Drees Steyn. The boss's mum is from South Africa also, I work with a bloke from Zim, so I hear a lot of Afrikaans spoken, still trying to pick up on it, though...

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:55:38 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"Many will not be equipped with foreheads."<

And many will have calouses on their knuckles...

CC on the way!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 21:57:12 (ZULU)

I recall seeing adds a while back for a company that sold very nice "rebuild-refinish" military rifles... completely overhauled, like new (maybe "better" than new) stocks clean and poly'ed, metal refinished, and they shipped them in a fitted wooden crate, with mil stenciled print on them...

Any of youz guys have a name, number, and website for this company.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 22:02:44 (ZULU)

Kittywhacker, I'll take a CC on that too. If it got your knuckles whacked, it's bound to be a good one! I'll call you on the mil rifle question, gimme some time.

Marius, you mean we've got no new folks with all this notoriety? SURPRISING!

CDC, you're still a laugh. You show your mentors taste for short jabs wonderfully.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, October 11, 2002, at 22:21:27 (ZULU)

Concerning that Puke in Maryland, seems to me that if he's a home grown moron, he had to practice somewhere (other than video games). Not knowing what the regs are on the East coast, here in central Cali, every time I go to a public range I have to sign in. If the regs are the same back East, he's on a list somewhere. I don't advocate harrasing law abiding citizens just because they own a firearm, but given the circumstances I'm sure everyone with nothing to hide would understand and gladly cooperate. Like the old saying goes, "The nut doesn't fall far from the tree!"

From a previous post, my former unit sent a detachment up to Ft. Lewis. Didn't know that was the 2nd detacment to go. There's already a group in A Stan. Mrs. D gave me that look, you know the one....Don't even thiiiink about it. HA! She can't stop me from thinking...Double HA!

Daniel Flores <savage10fp@yahoo.com>
ca, usa - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 22:24:38 (ZULU)

M1903;

Thanks for the info, fellas.

four miles:

I guess the military is going to replace mortars and arty with sniper rifles. I wish I had one of those "sniper rifles". My HDR won't shoot near that far.

That buttmunch must be smoking the same crack as that sludge* brained cocknoggin in MD.*sludge= the settled product from raw and waste water in a treatment plant(slimy shit,literally, at the bottom).

By the way, there's a saying in the sewer business, "Shit sinks if you don't stir it."

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 22:36:32 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I am relocating my server across town to better connectivity - or should be better. Anyhow in an hour or so... connectivity will get spotty...

Hang in there... it will be back shortly..

Later on

Ken Hunter <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, USA - Friday, October 11, 2002, at 22:36:51 (ZULU)

Back to Archives