Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

Brodgers,

Even though I've seen that story replay itself over the years--it still pisses me off. But, in the over-arching strategy, we gotta deal with dirtbags so we'z can kick butt on the nastier dirtbags. The only consolation is the thumping yer bud gave. I can theoretically understand the vagaries of a myriad of cultures, but damned if I can "understand" why they do as they do...one of my buds got bounced outta Bos for thumping a 200lb guy who had just hospitalized his seven year old daughter on the street...which one of us woulda walked away from that? But, the bigger picture washes right over the "little things." Cultural sensitivety can only go so far. No matter how disciplined you think you are.

Man, I just smoked my thesarus...heh.

OK, 6.5x 284 is chosen for my 1st custom built riffle. Long action makes sense. I like the winney Mod 70 controled feed design for the action--good or bad idea???

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:00:37 (ZULU)

What difference is there between a 6.5x .308 and the .260 rem?

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:12:27 (ZULU)

".................... I'd say that 1000-2000 armed citizens who can ID likely firing points here and there would increase the odds of this punk dying in the act.........................."

It's Socialist Maryland...........no chance in hell. Whoever it is knows he's the wolf among the flock.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:15:36 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon,

I think you're on the right track about Terrorists, and Diversity in the MD/VA/DC area. The population is about 25% Middle Eastern ethnic background. I have been hearing folks saying that we will see the same type of attacks that have been going on in Israel. The captured videos showed the Al Queida Terrs training for just a scenario. They probably figured that they'd have much more success in some state with strict gun control than in another state with shall issue CCW laws.

Maybe one of our very own "LEO Rosterfarians" will end this guy's streak of success. I dont doubt for one minute that he is being hunted, and will be taken care of.

Best Regards,

Bill B

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
outback, ky, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:16:59 (ZULU)

My semi-annual post.

Been involved in all kinds of things lately, getting ready for the shoot at SMTC too.

Bruce, sorry to hear about folks out your way.

Montgomery County Shooter: ? odd indeed.

I got a call from some fella downtown DC today (202) area code, says he was referred to me by someone here on the DR. I called back a few times but no reply, perhaps tomorrow..... Any info on this fella is appreciated, just curious ahead of time.

My son's off to Germany directly, Air Defense Artillery, I guess his wife will follow up in a short while once housing becomes available.

Been wearing the barrel out on my M40A1 George Gardner rifle, shoots well but I sure miss the bipod. George has a 338 Lapua and a "Gumby" in either 243 or 260 in line for me. Should be a fair way to get rid of a few thousand dollars. George is in his new shop BTW, different address, same phone#.

Take care & be safe

v/r

Dave "Doc" King

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
-, -, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:17:48 (ZULU)

Palma Sight Set:

Don't know if anyone is interested but thought I would pass on the information. On eBay right now there is an auction going for a NEW Palma rear sight and Big Bore International front sight (Item # 1865715415). The auction ends in 2 days (Oct 9) current price is $195 + $5 for shipping. It's been there since Oct 2 with no bids so far. The picture seems to show the new stated condition.

I have no connection to the auction or items just passing on intel.

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:43:46 (ZULU)

"Doc"...

Word is that the 202 guy is from one of the agencies looking for help.

Call him back and see if you can help put this little creep's lights out!

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 00:49:28 (ZULU)

Brian,

What an endorsement!

Owe you a few cervezas and a good thick NM Black Angus Porterhouse if you'll ever come visit.

Showed your post to my bride. She said thanks and now wants to go to the mall to dispose of anticipated revenues......"retail therapy" in compensation for putting up with my lovable ass.

All the best,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:11:40 (ZULU)

Fatboy,

Oh crap now you tell me I'm a gonna be needin shoulder surgery!! Gee thanks a lot man! Guess I better sell off that hard kickin stick and get me a .22LR instead. Better yet a .177 song bird sniper rifle!! Then I'll have shoulder free worries till I keels over and feed the worms. :)) NAAAA, think I'll take my chances just to compete against you and that 6.5 you got. Since you finally got beat apparently, what was your score dude?? Better than a 186 I hope. ;) If your too embarrassed to put it up here, just go ahead and shoot me an email. Promise I wont post it here for all to see. ;) And quit reminding me about sliding around on your shooting mat, I had fun doin it!!

Nick the smart ass

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:31:01 (ZULU)

Results from match at Butner yesterday. At least I am improving over my last trip out. I got a 165-2(with an unexplained miss), 175-2 and a 179-2. I'm creeping up on 200 slowly but surely. My one and only other 1000 yard round from last year was 150-0. http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/files/pdfs/Oct5_02.pdf

It was great to shoot beside Master Cockerham and his bud. The Savage is getting too big for it's britches! My PSS pissed in it's pants when the Savage came out of it's bag. Jeeez!

I am officially volunteering to make an attempt to take out that mother fornicator up north. You LEO's and Feds from Maryland can email me. I'll pay my own way and provide my own ammo. I hate people that make mean with kids. Adults are bad enough, but now kids????

Wind hates me, nuff said. Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:43:42 (ZULU)

I removed this moronic remark by myself.

John

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, WI, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:47:21 (ZULU)

Nick,

I shot a palma course of fire with optics and the 6.5(cheating) and shot a 440 - 15,(of a possible 450 - 45X) winner shot like a 446 - 17 with an iron sighted 308. Then we shot a 20 shot prone at 1K (any/any like everyone else)and I really messed my position up,, ended up hurting badly in my wrist while shooting agian, unlike the three previous palma line shoots which felt perfect. I shot a 192-6,(of a possible 200-20X) but dropped a 7 like my 18th shot,, I could have cried gravey tears... a 196 - 13 won any/any and 197 - ?x won f class. BOTH 6.5x284's ;))

I'm working on a repeatable position,, I think a three way butt pad would help. As it is now, I'm having to push the right cant out of the rifle with my shootng hand and it's making it hard to not yank the trigger... Newbie crap I'll need to work through... I think I found the trouble, which was moving the cuff too high on my arm which forced me too far under the stock combined with a slight bit of sling stretch, as it's a new sling,, first time used. I tighened up 1/2 a notch tonight and moved the hand rest back about 3/4" and it felt great dry firing, very natural. I'll see if that worked soon enough. I'm beginning to think that comfort is more important than an exact position,(both would be ideal),so long as I don't have to muscle the reticle on.

Come on out and shoot,, it'll give me a reason to shoot through the pain,,, beating you that is ;))How many match you think it'll be before you knck me off my thimble?

Joe M,

I'm looking for a used Win M70 LA now for my second 6.5x284. I ran across several but passed because I didn't like the bolt shroud. The hammer was not exposed, rather a little piece of sheet metal painted red slid out from under the enclosed shroud to indicate it's cocked. I'm unfamiliar with this bolt config on winchesters, and was told it was an early 70's production. I figured it's best to pass until I found one that's more like the stealth (looks like the M700 bolt shroud except the safety). Anyone have any info on these actions,, please let me in on it as I passed on one for $285 because it just didn't look right without an exposed hammer. Oh,, the bolt wasn't as nicely machined on these particular actions as most winch I've seen either. Could have picked up lots of mid 70's Remington LA's for around $300, but decided to wait on the winch.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 01:59:47 (ZULU)

Doc King: I hate to point out a man's flaws, but you have one that is too serious to overlook. You don't post enough. Hang around. I've got some questions to ask you about a .300 Win.

Good luck on your guided hunt. That's a head I'd like to put on the wall.

Joe: "OK, 6.5x 284 is chosen for my 1st custom built riffle. Long action makes sense. I like the winney Mod 70 controled feed design for the action--good or bad idea?"

For a dream deer riffle, the controled feed would be choice. For a precision rig, use the push feed.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 02:50:12 (ZULU)

I Think my scope is off since i do get 1/4 inch at 100 yards. Guess I'll just live with it until I invest in a real scope. Speaking of which, how exactly do drop compensators work? are they acurate when it comes to bullet drop? and how does one adjust the elevation when shooting at a target over thier limited drop range like the spingfield scopes that go out to 700 meters? Are drop compensators allowed in competitions? Also, I am looking for a good stock for my savage 10fp but mcmillen is a little expensive for me, i tried lockstock.com but they dont have any pictures for thier stockade stocks. Anyone know where i can find pictures on stockade stocks like a website or anything? thanks.

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
Ca, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 03:38:04 (ZULU)

maddog, the drop compensators work like gangbusters, but there are caveats. If you don't use the bullet it's designed for, and pushed to the prescribed velocity, it probably won't track like it's on rails. There are close exceptions. If you do your load development well, yes, they're great. On the better scopes, the drop compensator goes to 1000. How much further you want to go?

Joe and Doc, I agree with everything CDC just said entirely. Doc, you get the best wishes, hope you become the Jaegermeister. Joe, what he said 8p and you get a Hallelujah too.

Bill Moore, nobody has ever done that. Never. And you won't find it in the archives either. That's sarchasm, but said with a smile. Expect incoming e-mail.

Mike Miller, that's a sham. Let's screw an honest guy 'cause we got screwed by a dishonest guy. Yeah, that makes lots of sense. At least you got the guy in Florida to quit that racket.

John T Maroon, think again on the 223. Look at what Fackler has to say on the subject. He's got more experience with this kind of stuff than both of us put together could dream up. Or reread Medic Jim's post.

Bruce, your buddy is on my list as well.

---------------------

Mike T (RifleMike), YES, I'm looking for you. Please drop me an e-mail with a good address to respond to.

---------------------

Steve with the red-dress red-dress, hey I hear your pain with the Springfield optics. If I thought they'd hold up as well for me as they have some, I'd rush out and get me a gen 1. Same to be said of the sheep-herd. If's if's if's. When that reticle is built into a sturdy platform, it should shine. Let's hear what happens to yours, vicarious living and such.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 04:16:43 (ZULU)

OK, I have what is probably a stupid question but I could use a bit of help. I am putting together a new rifle (700 with a heavy barrel) and got a scope with a 56mm objective. Is there any way to determine the best ring height for this glass without just trying a set and miking it to see how much I have to add or subtract? Thanks

Duane <moed77@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 04:25:05 (ZULU)

=====

For Shooting schools, there are two that most of us can recomend without reservation... Kent Gooch's (look on the roster, and when you see his name in green, click it!), and the Badlands group... both are outstanding, and run programs around the year.

'lito

=====

'lito,

Thanks very much for the response. I checked out both their web sites and they all seems to have pretty good rifle classes. I live on the west coast(Washington state), so I try to find class close by.

But if good schools are far away, I just have to make the trip.

Thanks again.

Jessie <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 04:58:18 (ZULU)

What scopes do you all recomend for a good competition/hunting rifle? I was hoping for a mildot scope with Parallax Focus (think thats what its called) and maybe an illuminated reticle. I was looking at springfield armorys scopes but they are mostly drop compensated. any advise will be welcomed short of a nightvision scope (in this great liberal state they are called "sniper scopes" and is against the law to have one mounted on a rifle or knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession) at least acording to california DOJ http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ .

thanks

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 07:00:26 (ZULU)

Maddog,

http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm

Remember, cheap is far more expensive in the long run.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 11:07:52 (ZULU)

Maddog....

I use a LRM3 for both on coyotes. One on a .308 and one on a .243.

Fatdude....

Update on the pop up range match possibilities???? I know your workin hard on it. Keep it up.

Maryland dirtbag,

Bolt, I'm with you. When and where? I've got the time, or would make it for this circumstance. There's not much doubt as to why he chose that area. Full of political types, no threat of counter sniper action or even a passing motorist having a pistol, plenty of potential AOs' within easy driving distance, if and when he's caught he'll get a do-gooder, left wing, Public Defender that'll plea bargain everything down to murder 2 and walk in 10 yrs. Unless me and Bolt find him first. Rhetorically speaking that is. A politician is on this guys' list, he's just makin 'em sweat.

Bruce,

Sorry to hear about the loss in your community. Hope the trooper is better today.

"Doc"

I get those calls about once a year. Usually want me to join the National Republican Committee or send a donation to one of their cronys. If you get 'em to answer the phone it'll be a tape recorded message about some politician.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 11:33:11 (ZULU)

Terrorist targets- someone wondered why they're targeting kids/innocents. 1. Head of one of the Middle Eastern terrorist groups was once asked why they didn't go after the Isreali Army. Answer:" Why should we hunt tigers when there are so many sheep?" 2. The "intellectuals of the group" figure we owe Allah several million dead including 2-4 million kids.

In short, it's the definition of terrorist!

If/when this idiot gets nailed, it'll probably be dumb luck. Haven't talked to anyone in Montgomery County in awhile (Father-in Law used to live there), but they're more likely to have a handbook on establishing a "threat/coertion free dialoge" with the "troubled individual" than a HDW/HDR. Last Police Chief was required to have considerable experience in Community Policing and grant writing. DC cops have averaged an accidental discharge a month for 12 years, not very reassuring is it?

6.5x55 swede has done quite well as a target round. Probably doesn't need souped up, but about 10K psi headroom available in better rifle. Odd case head size if'n I remember right but probably within the tolerances of 0.473 bolt face.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 11:38:47 (ZULU)

Duane; Get the high rings and be done with it. You don't need extra high but just about everybody's High rings will probably work. 56 is a big scope.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 12:56:47 (ZULU)

Maddog; the 4.5X14X40 Leupold is the best for the money. Fagadabout the side focus, it's a really cool looking and works but you can do the same thing for $100 less and it works just as well and is calibrated in range. The side focus is slow to operate (get the parallex adjusted). This scope has plenty of range and usually works without sloping bases. Optics are excellent and the Mil dots are good also. Buy the latest generation Mil Dot's you can find. The old footballs suck the big one. A good way to go might be find a conventional cross hair and send it in to Leupold for a reticle upgrade. The clicks are accurate and positive. The 6.5X20 is probably pretty good also but you probably don't need the weight just to get some power you won't normally use.

brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 13:06:04 (ZULU)

Chris,

Watch out next match I can get to, I'll just grab that thar thimble an take it fer maself.:) Talk to ya later man, back to work.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 13:46:49 (ZULU)

Watched FOX news last night and they had a former DELTA sniper on asking him about the shootings in MD. He says its not a T only some want to be who is living out his little fantacy. I thought he did a good job. They were trying to push the fact that this was a trained sniper and he told them in short order that it wasn't and any clown with a AR and cheap scope could make these shots.

Joe,

DIfference between the 6.5x308 or the 260 is the shoulder angle. In the early stages before the 260 they formed the 308s down to a 6.5 I don't recall what the difference is but it isn't much. I have a 260 and have shot out nearly two of them. I love the round its everything a 308 is with less recoil and better wind drift. I would guess it to be really close to the ballistics of the 175s for dials and maybe a tad better on wind depending on the velocity.

Chris,

Your right on with your call on the 6.5x284 as far as barrels go. I talked to several guys and they were getting around the 2000+ mark for the HP rifles. I had JR bore scope mine after the D&L shoot last year and I was at 1500 then and it was just starting to show some throat wear at that time. I was careful to not get it to hot and that is where the difference is. He figured if I kept shooting it the same way it would go close to 3000.

I am sorry to say that since I gave it to number one son he doesn't share my thoughts on saving barrels. He used it this year at the D&L shoot and the Man on Man shoot. If your not familiar with these they eat up barrels big time. You shoot against another shooter on a series of targets out to whatever distance and the first guy to knock his down puts the other guy out. When I say speed shooting I mean fast.I ruined my 260 barrel one year doing it and haven't done it since.

Since he has won a couple of barrels he seems to think he doesn't need to worry about it but when he starts paying to have them put on he may change his mind(HA).

Gooch,

Shawn is at the Wilson Matches this week and he said its not even close to what it used to be. Sounds like things have really changed down there since Doland left. He said this year the first 3 days they stayed in motels instead of in the field. Must be the new army thing(HA).

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 14:02:50 (ZULU)

WR Moore, correct on all three counts. It's an odd head size, but is within standard face tolerances, and is a great target round.

Angrypuppy, if you check out the archives for long at all, there's a couple of scopes (four at the outside) that are emensely popular with this crowd. There's a reason. Think "Leupold". There's others, but the meat and potatoes answer is Leupold.

Jessie, we're kind of weak on major schools in the west. If you're going to fly, anywhere is just as close. There's a couple out here that I'd recommend, but from Washington, they're going to be quite a drive. You could always try and get a retired USMC Major in Oregon to give you some help. It's not like he didn't do that professionally. HINT!

Duane, hit me off line and I'll help.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 14:15:19 (ZULU)

Pat,

I missed the Delta guy on Fox News. But I agree with the comments he made about this shooter not being a sniper. It could be some terrorist, or sympathizer that is trying to make a name for himself.

Sad to say, but there are probably lots of people in the USA that support the terrorists, and their goals. I don't mean to defame everyone that is of Middle Eastern ethnic background who is here in the USA legally. I am referring to the thousands of illegals in the USA that just disappear annually. Several years ago I read a report that said over 500,000 people are supposed leave when their visas expire, and just disappear from the INS radar each year. That can't be good for the security of the nation.

The guy may not be a sniper, but he's been doing daylight shooting with witnesses to the shooting, and nobody has a clue as to who he is. This makes me think it's not some whacked out militia type living out his fantasy. I hope some LEO sniper ends this guy's career soon.

Best Regards,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 14:40:00 (ZULU)

Marine killed in Kuwait training exercise:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/08/kuwait.marines.shot/index.html

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 16:01:05 (ZULU)

Pat,

Just remember I said 'think' it would make it 3000 rounds(HA!) that was a good looking throat for the kind of abuse put thru it on that round. How many rounds you have thru it now?

Sweep,#

were you serious about 1200 rounds between rebarrels? You are now my new favorite customer...

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:02:02 (ZULU)

I've read numerous stories here of accuracy problems related to problems with the muzzle crown as well as machine marks at or near the muzzle.

Looking down the barrel (muzzle end) of one of my barrels with a light (held at an angle), I noticed what appear to be a series of concentric rings, spaced about 1/64 th of an inch appart.

The rings cannot be felt with the wooden end of a cotton swab, and they also are not visible when the cotton end of the swab is inserted down the barrel to reflect more light.

Is this a normal result of the barrel making / machining process?

Any help / advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:22:14 (ZULU)

Steve...

You didn't say who's barrel it was.

These marks are probably the orginal deep drill marks... common in factory bbls, but very badd that you can see them if you payed big bucks for it.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:47:27 (ZULU)

Steve,

A) I've never seen a cotton swab with a wooden end.

hahah...

a 1/64" is 1/2 of a 1/32 which is 1/2 of a 1/16th so that would mean you would be seeing rings at around .016" separation. Just at the muzzle? concentric rings? how far down the muzzle? I don't know exactly, off of what youve given, what would cause concentric rings spaced .016" apart, to be honest. Could I ask if this looks like the rings are only on the lands, or in the grooves also.. that might help. If it's just off the lands, it could be reamer chatter, if it's the grooves, well, whole new ball game. You probably don't have a cut-rifled barrel, eh..

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 18:51:13 (ZULU)

JR...

You ol' lassie chasin' booger, they DO make cotton swabs with long wooden handles (for medicine)... I have tons of them for working on guns and stuff.

(It's probably a Remington barrel ;)))

By the way... I saw your picture on the Border website... you're only half as ugly as Pat said! (HA!)

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:00:07 (ZULU)

Gents, what he's doing so far isn't that hard. It really isn't. We train to beat observers actively looking for you and get expected shots off and get away clean. Some dude shooting out of a vehicle, particularly with a can, at a target that isn't expecting it using a single shot is almost always going to get away clean, unless he's just not lucky. Too many Americans haven't got a damned clue about the important stuff anymore. The basic martial skills are ignored or treated with derision among the civvies and the percentage of mil or former mil is really low, and that's counting all the cooks, bakers and candlestick makers who's closest combat experience was getting in a fight at the E-club. America is a population of sheep. I was getting a burger at the bar yesterday for lunch(with mustard!) and watching CNN. The ignorance I saw on the TV was disturbing. Two IL state cops were there getting lunch also, and they were just as clueless. They looked at me funny when I was laughing at the TV. I didn't tell them what I do because they'd probably haul me in for questioning. I'be heard some interesting speculation about ID of this guy. Hope it's true. Would be good for the US population to see that the Tangoes don't play nice and that they are perfectly willing to shoot men, women and children in cold blood. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:02:11 (ZULU)

Jr,

Let me run this past ya,,, I measure the throat at 100 rounds and used an OAL of 2.960" to stay off .015" off the lands. Last night I remeasured and found to stay .015" off I need to chase out to 2.985" OAL. So it's moved about .025" in roughly 350 rounds. Just how bad is this?

I haven't modified my load from the original 2.960" and the only points I've dropped were due to my piss poor wind reading ability and my nonsensical rifle hold while slung up. It is still wickedly accurate at distance. Also, I shoot it fast and furious when it's out so anyone considering this caliber, don't be discouraged by my results. I had it so hot Sunday afternoon I couldn't touch the barrel for about 30 minutes, and then it was too hot to hold for long. 30 rounds in 20 minutes is the norm for me.

So,, Should I be ordering a second tube now,, before he sends the order? If I'm gonna burn them down this quickly, I'll leave then stainless from now on.

'Litosan,

They make those little bastards with a thin metal shaft too, for punching a bore of a different ilk... OOOOOCH!!! Lots of you overseas guys know what I'm talkin' about I bet ;)) Can you say "Silver Bullet?"

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:06:30 (ZULU)

Catshooter, youse!!

hahah, ruined my whole premise, sometimes the ingenuity of the edit gets the better of you.. .... but I'm glad to see you're paying attention.. I apologise Steve, wasn't a completion of the statement, so disregard

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:09:22 (ZULU)

Reports on the news today that another expended case was found, this one in a wooded area near the school where the kid was shot. The site concensus is correct, task is not difficult, very few know what a gunshot sounds like. People are generally blind, deaf & dumb(in this case stupid rather than mute). This guy looks like he's picking areas close to Interstates for fast debussing of the area.

The media calling them "sniper" killings grates on me but I figure I'm a lot better off locally if I just keep my mouth shut. Wish I'd seen the bit by the Army dude.

Marine training incident-according to latest, 1 each KIA,WIA by a couple of civvies(?) in a pickup truck. Other Marines participating in the training exercise reportedly solved the problem in the indicated manner.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:36:05 (ZULU)

What I meant to finish to say is:

it's hard to tell what is going on with a cotton swab, even the wood end, other than with a burr on the crown. (the sentence originally was: I've never seen a cotton swab with a wooden end or not that that the layman could use in a way which would definitively troubleshoot what is going on in the barrel. eyes n' gauges.)

'lito, doesn't have to be a Remmy barrel, could be a button barrel depending on the looksee of these concentric rings. If they are evenly spaced rings, then you can be sure nothing was driven into the bore afterwards, it was probably done in process.

Chris:

I can't give you a definitie on that. My mate is shooting a 6.5 x 284 and in 100 rounds, the throat has moved almost .010"(I'm going to get youse two in touch, there is a lot you must talk about).(plus this is a rifle which was chambered here, you could get different results on a rifle chambered there) I don't likie but sometimes it doesn't seem to present a significant problem, sometimes.. I'll tell you a short story, Jack Krieger won a competition(could have been a 10 ft shoot for all I know) with only 4" of rifing in his barrel, and it weren't a pistol, that's a lot of freebore eh... all I know is it shot until it didn't.

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:41:18 (ZULU)

JR,

I feel much betterer now,,, ;)) I think if I wasn't shooting prone matches with this rig I could double the barrel life. Every 6.5x284 shooter I know, who shoots prone matches says 1200 to 1400 rounds. I can live with that. That's a barrel a season. I split that between 2 rifles and the next best thing will be out before I burn them up. Besides,, barrels are a consumable product,, like bullets and powder. They need to be budgeted into the mix early, I just don't wanna get RUM life from a Fag barrel.

KenM,

You ever take the measurements on that 300WM of yours? I wonder if the errosion is on par with the FagMag?

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 19:47:29 (ZULU)

Fackler wound ballistics- spent a rainy afternoon on the man's website a couple of years ago and found some interesting inconsistancies. Those wishing to trash the .223 on Facklerite basis have a problem: the impact velocity. The doc's literature on the .223 is replete with secondary wound tracks and the the positive effects of the fragmentation of the projectile and the resultant increase in "stopping power". Very, very different from his attitude on handgun ammo. And yes folks, the ball ammo fragments as well as tumbles. You don't generally see mention in the literature but besides tumbling end over end, the bullet generally tries to maintain it's rotation. So it's kinda rotating about the point while the base comes forward.

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 20:01:48 (ZULU)

Fackler - smackler

The discussion regarding "how fast" a round puts you in the grave is totally irrelevent when related to unarmed innocents. The .223 is deadly...a highly stabilized, 62 gr round 500 yards from the muzzle of a 14.5" ,1:7 twist barrel may not fragment and incapacitate immediately, but a center mass shot at that range in the middle of some third world country is really, really bad news.

The Maryland shootings are reported to be from ranges we would not call "long"...Anyone notice the press photo on the CNN webpage of the site where the woman was hit while sitting on a park bench? There is a solitary, well defined hole in the plate glass window behind the bench... trans-cranial intact round in .223? Hmmmm. We still thinking short range?

Any info yet on the two casings recovered...how far from the impact site? Wonder what the shooters choice of firing position looked like...good cover, good exfil route?

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 20:37:36 (ZULU)

Ken,

I just read your post about the MD shooter. I must agree with you about the American public in general. I have serious doubts that even the "average" shooter/hunter would have a clue what was going on if they were witness to one of these "sniper" shootings in MD.

For years there was discussion about attacks on US soil by terrorists, and most people chose to ignore the warnings. Now a year after 9-11-01 it's just about as bad. Daschle, and his comrades are more concerned about their power base than the security of the nation.

I heard they think this guy is using Isuzu delivery truck with a box on the back. Looks like a mini U Haul truck. It would make a good vehicle to shoot from. Put in a small window, install a shooting bench, and use a can on the rifle. Nobody would ever notice it. Could even be a team effort. Driver/Spotter, and the shooter. Almost nobody has a clue what a suppressed rifle shot sounds like. By the time they figure it out, the driver is hauling ass out of the area. But I doubt if the guy is shooting from inside a truck since I hear that the investigators have been finding empty rifle brass. Unless the shooters are intentionly tossing it out the window. Haven't heard any news about any more shootings today. Maybe the investigators are close to getting him.

Later,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, KY, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 20:45:41 (ZULU)

John,

Sent you an email. No attachments.

HDR <hprudisell@aol.com>
OK, - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 21:35:13 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

"Dirtbag with gun" (I refuse to call him a sniper) shot from a wooded rise off the school at (about) 120 to 140 yards (I was talking on my cell phone during the report and didn't catch it all). It seems he departed his transportation at least this once to make his shot. I hate the targeting of civilians as a primary target. Just absolutely despise the scum who would do that. I don't care a damn about your reasons for it...nothing excuses it. I hope a rookie cop gets lucky and spots this guy. I hope the nervous young hero in blue botches his shot badly and blows the balls of the perp before following it up with a miss to the abdomen and another miss to the Tibula and..and...hell, I'd pay money to spot for ya Mr. Bolt, but expect your first range call to put the first one in his knee cap. Followed by corrections designed to cripple with high levels of pain...

I can't stand cowardly scum shootin' civilians. Shooting a kid in front of his family is below my ability to disparage.

Next time I'll tell ya how I REALLY feel about this.

De Oppresso Liber;

never, never take your fight to the non-combatants...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 22:11:11 (ZULU)

Maryland;

Let's all get together and have a counter-sniper match in MD. We could have blind draw teams and work different areas. We could have a new HDR for the winning team.***This is fantasy for anyone who may use this against us.***

Maybe that dude up there is mad because he hasn't gotten his African bank money yet. If he wants to shoot people, why not those scam-mail slimes.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 22:26:23 (ZULU)

Want to have a look at Montgomery County?

Here a site that'll let you look around.

http://gis.co.mo.md.us/gis/ImageViewer/index.asp?aYear=1998

For best use get the plug-in and change to custom image size.

There are a few other places in the U.S. that have free maps of this quality on-line.

No return call from Mr 202

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Somewhere, MD, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 23:38:59 (ZULU)

Chris and others interested in the 6.5-.284

If you look at this past weekends match results for Camp Butner, you will see a score of 599 for a gentleman by the name of Bob Crone. He and his wife shoot the 6.5-.284. His wife didn't have a bad score either. I am going to stick with the .308, but the 6.5 is nothing short of impressive. The guy that was shooting with Bolt was shooting a .300 WSM and was really doing well also. His rifle was a Winchester action with a 30" K&P barrel. He was slinging 190 SMKs at some ridiculous velocities!

Bolt,

Can you remember anything about that raffle...I mean ....rifle;-))

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
NC, USA - Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 23:44:42 (ZULU)

These types are inevitably cowards.

Look at the victims. Women, children, people in condition white that can't possibly fight back.

Confronted by someone bigger and badder he'll run. If he can't get away, he'll shit his pants and probably kill himself or make the cops do it. No way to know for sure but like I said early on, bet he ain't no terr.

Got friends in that area. They are hunting the prick.

In the truest sense of the word.

You can probably bet fellas, that he's been here or 15.com before. At least a time or two.

That's why I seemed maybe more than a little preachy in my early days here.

Fucking Whitman wannabe.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 23:46:36 (ZULU)

Brian,

you ever figure out how you're gonna set the AWP up? Scope, tube length, etc...

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
I've laughed, I've Cried, I've learned how to Cook Cat , Oh, and that you spell Chili, "Chili", not Chile...., - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 00:12:16 (ZULU)

Jessie in Seatle,

Check out Surgical SHooting Inc. They are in Pomeroy, WA about 200 miles west of you. www.surgicalshooting.com

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 00:25:29 (ZULU)

Youz guys that are looking for Al O. can find him over on:

http://scripts.xtremeaccuracy.com/?

... he has an e-mail address there with his posts.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 01:37:12 (ZULU)

Brian: You deal with these geeks. I don't. Your insight is better than mine, but I can't imagine that one of these incest children would want to hang here. This place is wall-to-wall with law and order types. We have wives (ex or otherwise), kids, lives and talent. If this guy is a home-grown psycho, he's a useless little jerk-off loser.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 02:41:49 (ZULU)

Dan,

Personally, I think you nailed his profile EXACTLY.

A useless little jerk off loser.

He probably wouldn't post here. Just visit ... and learn.

Again, I may be 100 % wrong but that is what my gut told me from jump.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 02:56:52 (ZULU)

What's the hold up on the RIFFLE RAFFLE...? I'm going out of town pretty soon for about 12 days. I DON'T want to miss it. Damned money's burning me up!

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!! - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 03:17:24 (ZULU)

Society can be likened to animals around a flock of sheep.

Most people are the sheep. Content to be left alone and go about their daily lives in peace.

The wolf (criminal) will prey on the sheep with impunity at every opportunity. Usually singalling out the weak and helpless of the flock.

The sheep dog (cop, soldier, citizen that fights back) would not dream of hurting the sheep and will sacrifice his life to protect the sheep.

... course then there's 'Lito who screws the sheep.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddyy, baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.

Just kidding Cat Daddy.

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 03:21:25 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been awhile since I last posted...I'll try to make some comments, etc.

First, on our east coast "shooter". I won't deem to call him a trained professional. Personally, I don't think he's an Al Queda or other type "terrorist". My gut tells me he's a punk who thinks he's cool by "doing" others. No pattern to the shootings and no major targets of note...just my .02 on that one.

On the 6.5 X .284. I certainly like mine. Give me a holler and we can chat about it. Those that use it, love it. Still, I stump for a .308 as an all around gun. Why stress about it, GET BOTH!

Still no deer. Have discovered the injury I suffered last month is causing major problems with even light weight hunting rifles. Started weight training last week. Will see if that helps.

Broke out my M98 .35 Whelan Imp. Elk killer. Season is next month, if I can get days off to correspond with the season. Being new on the job certainly has it's drawbacks.

The new Browning HP in .40 S & W is a WINNER. MY practical from the box is 100% with anything I stuff in it. Tracks just as nicely as the 9mm version, too. Perhaps, I'm just old fashioned, but dammit I like steel weapons...this one is definetely worth your looking at if you are seeking a serious personal defense weapon.

All for now. More when I return from work tomorrow eve, late.

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 03:26:10 (ZULU)

Jessie:

In ref. to shooting schools, I went to "Front Sight" in Pahrump Nev. last mo. it's 50mi. west of Las Vegas and basically out in the middle of nowhere but an outstanding school with quality instructors (off duty LEO's and former Marines). I attended the 3 day CCW course but they also had a hunters course and a tactical rifle course as well. If you would like to contact them for info, you can call them at 1 800 - 987 - 7719 or check out their web at www.frontsight.com Hope this helps;-)

Daniel <Savage10fp@yahoo.com>
ca, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:02:32 (ZULU)

Capitol Area Shootings,

I just heard (CBS TV News out of NYC) that they found a casing at 140yds. from vic in PGC school shooting, along with a playing card - written on it was "I am God" or something similar.

A change of M.O. in an attempt to throw off persuers, or a copycat getting started? MCPD reached back a couple of weeks (I think) to a shooting at a liquor store, evidently bullet deflected by store window.Target OK. Caught part (too bad!) of an interview with ATF Agent assigned, remarked something about "shooter doesn't have to use the same rifle, 'ya know). WTF was that all about?

Detective Sain,

I seriuosly doubt that whoever it is that is committing these reprehensible acts has been on this or any other legitimate firearms site. Anything's possible, but this one's highly improbable! If it's Terrs, than we already know where their knowledge came from. If it's a sicko pissant loser, chances are better than even that he got his info about much of this from similar types, probably while incarcerated. LE (and you) already know that the slammer just provides entrance to the post-grad work in the Pen.

LE probably is already well ahead of me, but a good place to start looking might be among the criminal element with a military background and a dishonerable discharge. DC area is full of former military people, and not all of them are the good guys!

Brian,

Alot depends on whether they're our sheep or their sheep.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:14:58 (ZULU)

Brian Sain,

I'll agree that it is a possibility that the dirtbag lurked here and elsewhere...but I'll give ya odds it ain't so. If it ain't a sympathizer of tangos or an outright tango--then it's a little shit who grew up on video games...I hear there's even one out where the player drives around shootin pedestrians for points (hmmm).

I do not allow video games in my house...drives my boy crazy sometimes, but I think these things de-sensitize young minds to violence and killing. Could be the issue here...but I really hope not--cus the lefties will blame the gun. The discipline aspect got me thinking "Tango" though. He missed once, and moved out. No follow up, stuck to a plan. Sound like a psycho or vid-junkie? Nah, "feels" like a method to terrorize a population. The lack of a pattern is a pattern in itself--he(?) is targeting a very broad swath of society...and the effect is "nobody is safe." With son of sam, chickies (PC my ass) wore blond wigs--cus the pattern was brunettes. Here, anybody and everybody is a target...very much a pattern in my eyes. A pattern of terror. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Joe M. (and I wish you were up there bro--they could use some professional assistance:)

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:17:04 (ZULU)

Alan,

Roger, no disrespect taken. I was brief in that bit about innocents being targeted. Take gravity bombs in WWII--tried to hit the factories, but oops. Sh!t happens...no problem. Live next to a terr camp and take your chances...just dumb. But, to take aim at an unarmed kid for the purpose of making the rest of the town afraid is terrorism, no matter which side you are on. Carpet bombing Baghdad will not make us happy avengers...but selectively knocking out key sites will--regardless of the collateral damage. (heh). I look at it as my enemy targeting my family to break my will to fight. I promise you it would have an undesirable effect on my fightin' spirit! Tis a dark and dangerous path to choose. The laws of land warfare are our modern code of chivalry. And they allow for reprisals in kind, of all things. Fine, if that ever comes to pass, pick someone else to carry out the mission. I won't initiate fires on civilians. Ever. I said initiate. If they initiate, they be armed combatants. Big difference. But as they say, I will know the difference when I am looking at the difference. Can't really get into all the circumstances here. We would need lotsa beer to cover that ground! But bottom line is Hamassholes, Al-queerbaits and the ilk run from a fair fight and pick on the defenseless--and that really is cowardice at it's worst. I hate these guys with a passion. In case you were wonderin'...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 04:41:19 (ZULU)

Joe,

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of being (more or less) forced to destroy an entire city along with its civilian population because the enemy forces us to do so. Things like garrisoning troops in civilian homes, installing AAA batteries on non- combatants rooftops, turning military facilities into civilian shelters, child suicide bombers, snipers operating from peoples living rooms, storing arty, SAM's, other materiel among food stores, etc.

I speak from two tours worth of experience. Civvys forced to push bicycles laden with arms and ammunition across Laos and Cambodia. Others forced into slave labor laying pontoon bridges to replace the ones that we lost aircraft destroying three days before. SAM sites in the middle of refugee camps, next to schools, Hospitals, etc. Little children as Sappers, innocent villages by day, food and weapons depots by night. My first tour was interdiction on the Trail. A year later I'm back playing EWO in an F-105F WW. You get used to it. First you drink a bunch. If you make it home you still drink a bunch. But you gotta do it. What they taught me at all of those schools in the States didn't go far enough. They also never really told me exactly what they expected of me along those lines. But I'm not whining, you go, you learn, you do, and if God and luck is with you, you come home.

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:24:42 (ZULU)

Joe, how do you REALLY feel on the topic? Personally, I like your rants. I'd say you should run for public office, but I have far too much respect for you to insult you that way. Still, it would be an enjoyable daydream. While passing the capitol building, I informed my son "that's where the bad men work". Pretty building, disgusting occupants.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:33:39 (ZULU)

Hi Gooch,

Thanks for the good pointer. Taking class from Surgical Shooting actually is my first choice. I did take the LRSS class from Surgical Shooting last October and were very exciting about taking additional class. But they get the fleet protection training contract from Navy and it seems that the company grows quickly. I called and e-mailed several times but they don't have any LR rifle class later this year. So I am looking for other place to get my training.

Daniel,

Thanks for the information on FrontSight. I knew that they are pretty good on handgun and carbine, but don't how they are in terms of LR rifle. I will get to their web site to take a look.

Jessie Chang <jessiec@oz.net>
Seattle, WA, 98155 - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 06:15:31 (ZULU)

ALAN, Joe, and others...

I think you guyz are giving this "Shooter" too much credit by assuming he is ex-military, or some other trained shooter.

Hitting a 20"x40" target at 100 to 140, or even 200 yards, with an open sight, "off the rack" rifle is no big deal... the average person can do it by reading the instructions that came with the gun.

Biggest odds are that he (them) are late teens to mid twenties, socially broken people with few or no friends, and bitter at the world that has "done them wrong", with little or no experence with firearms...same type as the Columbine shooters.

I doubt that it is towel heads... they would stand out like a red flag in that area... and by now, would be watched by everyone. They couldn't get a golf bag to their car/truck, without being surrounded by the possie.

I got a scary e-mail from someone on this site today... if he lived in the DC/Meryland area, I would drop a dime on him in a Ney Yawk second... there sure are some broken puppies out there :(((

Brian... DUDE!!

I gave up sheepies two years ago. Took the 12 step program with a few other Rosterfarians, and I'm sticking with it.

The hard part is that the North American. long legged, double breasted, Chickadees can run Faaaaaaaaast!! ;))

'lito (why am I on the Roster at 3:00 AM????)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 06:50:12 (ZULU)

On the dipshit in maryland, I hope they fry that loser. On the videogames note on how they desturb young minds into losing track of reality and how shooting people really hurts. Ive been ranting on that for years, funny when your a teenager and say those things your peers tend to think your nuts. I have this one video game names Grand Theft Auto 3, first time I played it all I could think was ,"they have to take this off the shelf." I think it is very posible it could be a young idiot who wants to play the "badguy" that the population has been idolizing alot lately. Just like those colombin kids. Times like this I wish they still taught good morals in school, prayer, and pledging to the flag in school. But being in this good ol liberal state, a paper dog has a better chance of chasing down an asbestos cat through the hotest fires of hell than any of that happening.

Thanks for the tips on the scopes by the way. I am going to have to go with something cheap though seeing that the local EMS agancy pays me minimum wage so i will have to look around for deals or just deal with what I got, not alot of safe or legal places to shoot long distances around here anyays.

Can anyone tell me about this ammo i picked up today? the box says MATCH from lake city army ammunitions plant. its from 1966 lot LC 12060 M118 173grains velocity 2550 fps. Is ammo this old anygood? i also got some from 65.

Sorry for such a long post by the way, one final question and I promise to shut up for now :) Is there any prescision shooting schools in southern california or any "sniper" matches like the ones i read about on this site? cant seem to find much around here but then again, im only 20 and my folks finnally let me stay out past the street light ;) .

Thanks alot.

Maddog5150 <angrypuppy311@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 08:13:21 (ZULU)

'litosan, if you're still up,

While testing some .243 ammo yesterday I noticed a significant amount of muzzle flash (daytime). Powder was 44.0 grs. Varget. 600 Rem. short barrel. W748 and W760 were a lot less noticable, almost non existent. Is this a function of barrel length and powder charge? Or just powder charge, or a Varget characteristic I've never noticed in any other caliber? I could see it clearly thru the scope on follow thru. Over 25 rds. all virtually the same flash signature. It reminded me of Fed. American Eagle .223 out of the Bushy. Very bright.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 11:55:06 (ZULU)

John...

Don't worry about the flash. Remember that ball powders have flash suppressants in them... and Varget has very little "Stuff" in it. That's why it looks green, instead of black.

Angrykid...

If you look at the history of sick killers, you will find that most of them were boy scouts, went to church, and were otherwise "perfect" children... so don't ask the schools to get into the morals business cuz I garrentee you won't like the outcome. I don't want the school system to teach my rugrat to pray, and who to pray to. And I DON'T want the schools to ban praying by anyone.

Video games? Then all kids should be jailed on the spot. But this is the same argument the anti-gun (anti-everything) folks use... "If there weren't any guns (alcohol, video games, porn magazines, sports cars, Bikini swim suits), then these people wouldn't commit...". Also bullshit!

But if you look at the average kid in school who wears a Harley Davidson tee shirt, cuts up a bit in school, flips the teacher the "bird"... these kids never wind up doing this kind of crazy killing... Me, I worry about the kids that are too nice, that are praying all the time, and are wrapped up tight.

Let the schools teach academics, and have parents be responsible for their kids.

And by the way... what the hell are YOU so angry at??

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 12:26:05 (ZULU)

Brian,

Really liked your sheep analogy. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Who said that? My hats off to you and all the other LE types looking out for the sheep.

Don

Don K. <ussr@clarityconnect.com>
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 12:46:33 (ZULU)

Ref: Kids & Video Games

In the book “On Killing” the author makes a persuasive argument that the natural inhibition against killing is worn down by constant exposure to violence in movies and video games. Many of the same “Skinnerian” conditioning processes take place while a person plays violent video games as take place in military training but without the controls or constraints. I would suggest this book as required reading for anyone trying to understand the problem of violence in our society.

Ref: Glint

I received a document from the National Technical Information Service yesterday. It is titled, "Assessment of Glint Hazard to Soldiers". Pretty good reading but more important is my discovery of a huge resource for technical publications on just about any subject you can imagine. This is all public domain stuff but would be considered by some as real "secret squirrel" material.

Most of the material available addresses "off-axis glint" and the ARD pretty much takes care of that issue. My search is for countermeasures to address the "on-axis glint" resulting from active counter surveillance/counter sniper technology.

If anybody out there has any tips drop me an e-mail.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:04:22 (ZULU)

Fellas,

Don't be so quick to discount the video game thing. I think there is something to it. Buy a copy of Col. Dave Grossmans "On Killing" and also "Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill". www.killology.com Good reading.

I have spoken with several kids at work that have told me the Auto Theft game referred to earlier made them want to go out and kill somebody so they quit watching it.

I am talking about ten year olds here guys.

In several incidents where kids have shot people and were standing there with a smoking gun, when someone yelled at them to "STOP !" They did so and lowered the weapon. Kind of like "GAME OVER".

It at least warrants a little reading before judgement is passed and the bullshit flag is thrown. I see both sides though. My boy 'lito made good points as did others. But then, my Dad has had a Harley all his life. Has three now.

Anybody here like Lynyrd Skynyrd ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:07:31 (ZULU)

>Anybody here like Lynyrd Skynyrd ?<

Gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister....

Brian,

Anyone who doesn't like 'em shouldn't be allowed to post anymore :)).

Nick

Nick Anzano <nanzano@mindspring.com>
Milton, NJ, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:19:33 (ZULU)

...W_H_O_A.....

Chief Moose of the Maryland Police just gave the news media and all the "talking heads" that "used" to be good cops, FBI and CIA a real ASS chewing at his 7am news brief !!!!!

He told the media and the retired guys that if the people wanted "them" to run this investigation, he'd be back at 9am for another briefing and he'd let the people of Montgomery Co. vote on it....If they (the people) voted for the press, etc. his people will quit the search and go on to "other" police business that needs to be done.....if not, shut the hell up and quit interferring with his Dept. and let him and his people do they're job.......

....a very impressive ass chewing, done with much dignity and a true sense of heart and urgency considering what is happening in his AO !!!!

If you can get to see the entire briefing, its worth listening to....

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:55:15 (ZULU)

My personal feeling now is that this little sucker is getting cocky. He leaves a tarot card with "I am god" on it. How stupid is that?? Just being speculative, he's superstitious and now is cocky so may start taking bigger chances. I'd expect his rate of shots to increase as he gets bolder. And mistakes will come with that, such as leaving a calling card which tells a little about himself.

As far as watching out for the nice sweet innocent kids in school. I'll go along with that as well. These are the ones that knew they could actually get away with stuff simply because the grown-ups wouldn't suspect them. I was one of those kids but I kept my nose clean, didn't want to take the chance of getting caught doing something stupid. Plus I learned how to use my brain. :)

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 13:56:26 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Unwanted attention for SC. This was posted to an e-mail list I'm on. Pardon my not reformatting it, but you can go to the URL if ya want it cleaned up.

Don

>From the New York Daily News --

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/25635p-24192c.html

Click mouse, then pull trigger by Michael Daly

'One Shot - One Kill!" Those words welcome all who visit

www.snipercountry.com, one of a half-dozen Web sites devoted to sniper

enthusiasts. This is a subculture the firearms industry has helped foster in

recent years to bolster dwindling gun sales.

"If you run ... you'll only die tired!"

The mow-'em-all-down daydreams that accompanied the now-banned assault rifles

are as dated as Columbine. The new fantasy in the marketplace is of a single

deadly shot fired from afar with a sniper rifle. The gun companies'

motivation becomes clear in the Sniper Country site's chat area.

"My budget of $1,000-$1,500 includes the rifle, optics and any

coatings," a

visitor named Brian says. "But spotting scopes, cleaning gear, drag bags

and

the like don't have to fit in that budget window - my wife isn't as diligent

about checking the workshop for unfamiliar extras."

A visitor named Bain says, "I love my Springfield Super Match M21, but you

can't get one for $1,500."

A visitor named Scott reports, "Even a custom-built Service Rifle will only

run you around $1,110 if you shop around."

The question is what to do with a sniper rifle once you buy one. A visitor to

the site named Condor asks:

"How do you practice sniping? Certainly, you can't go around picking off

people that are several hundred yards away. ... I mean, it's just not

socially acceptable. People will complain. The police will get involved.

You'll need a lawyer. It's just not worth it, using your fellow humans as

live targets just to gain some quality, meaningful sniper practice."

Somebody outside Washington has decided otherwise. That has not stopped Sniper

Country and other such sites from offering helpful sniping tips, excusing

themselves with disclaimers that the info is intended only for law-abiding

citizens.

"What about in an urban environment?" a Sniper Country visitor

wonders. "How

do you estimate distance to a target? Well, if you did a thorough

reconnaissance of area of operation, you ought to know the distance between

telephone poles, how long city blocks are ... all sorts of pieces of

information that can give you accurate data in setting up a shot."

Yet another visitor, this one named Ed, suggests that while "movers are a

pain," humans are generally easier than other moving targets.

"People are a lot simpler as you can make a good estimation by the way they

move," he notes.

Ed recommends a simple technique to compute the target's speed involving two

reference points and a "handy-dandy $3 Wal-Mart sniper calculator." He

provides a simple formula for converting from feet-per-second to

mile-per-hour.

"It is more dramatic to say 'I shot a 7 mph runner' than 'I shot a 12 fps

mover,'" Ed notes.

Ed then furnishes an equation involving target speed, bullet velocity and

distance to intended impact.

"At 100 [meters], a 3 mph walker requires about a 7-inch lead ... a slow

walker is half that, a jogger double and a track star triple," Ed notes.

hope this made sense. Any questions, just shout."

A visitor named Pat writes: "Thanks for the info on the lead of moving

targets!! I guess it all comes down to practice but as someone stated, how do

you practice it when you don't have a mover available?"

Lessening gunshot spark

The site also offers advice on concealment, including ways to minimize

giveaway muzzle flash.

"I believe that most military ammo has a flash/flame retardant," a

visitor

writes. "Does any factory ammo seem to show less than another? Enquiring

minds want to know!"

There are links to more than 100 companies that profit by selling guns or

sniper-related gear, including a firm called AWC Systems Technology that

makes nifty silencers and Mildot Enterprises, which peddles a calculator that

quickly computes the "correction necessary to compensate for bullet drop

and/or wind drift."

One handy section called "Selecting a caliber/bullet for Urban

Sniping"

includes a discussion of the .223-caliber bullet favored by the sniper

outside Washington.

"At ranges urban sniping is done that .223 hits hard," writes a

visitor named

Rogers, who recommends a particular brand that "will 'pardon my French'

Jelly

the brains of anything within 200 meters."

The bullet is also a topic of discussion on a sister site,

www.snipersparadise.com. A visitor named Switca offers, "Personally, a .223

bullet would not be my first choice."

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:01:12 (ZULU)

Hey guys!

First off, I would like to say thank you for all of your insight, restraint and respect for the role of sniping. It is a humbling proffession and NOT for the faint of heart. My salute goes out to all of the grunts who have fought and died for my freedom and the freedom of my family. Thankyou!

Now, I am not sure if you guys have talked about the idiot, freak and just plain stupid waste of flesh who is stalking the northeast. I know you guys have given some severe *ss whoppins to those who have not taken this craft seriously. How do you guys feel about what this maniac is doing? Will his actions have any affect (or any at all) on the freedom you guys have on sniping? If you were the guy who catchs him, what would be your response?

Again, I am truly grateful to those salty devil dogs out there who have walked the battlefield in defense of our way of life. May my generation be forever in your debt and those friends that you have lost. Thanks guys for your time and response, if you wish to do so!

Rick Reboiro <reborich@isu.edu>
Pocatello, Idaho, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:38:27 (ZULU)

This link was emailed to me...

Had to share it with you all.

After intense expert analysis, the major media outlets have decided the following regarding Osama Bin Ladens current status.

(click my name for the link)

http://www.scandal.org/images/photos/big/deadoralive.jpg

Well no shit....

Oh yea and about Mr Daly the writer of that NY Daily News article...

How about the more eleoquent and tactful of the Hogs, email him and explain where he's wrong.

"Michael Daly is the first American-born in his family. He attended 16 grammar schools. He graduated Yale University. He started journalism at Flatbush Life. He has published one novel, "Under Ground." He lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two daughters.

Email: mdaly@ edit.nydailynews.com"

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
Omaha, Well done? Rare!, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:41:53 (ZULU)

shortly after i joined. i emailed the web master asking him to take a look at the free boards from www.suddenlaunch.com They can be set up so you have a general public section and a private section that when non members enter they cant even see there there unless you have an open public section like request to join . once it is set up this way you can have sub sections , ie , reloading , gear , rifles , competition or what ever you want .The boards look very plain when you look at them on there site , background color frame and border color and font color can all be modified Also moderators can move posts to proper places and edit and delete content that is unacceptable. Being as firearms in general are such a sensitive topic in general i thought thoose boards would be better. he never wrote back

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:42:51 (ZULU)

On video games desensitizing people to violence: Paul notes an important point on the confusion of correlation with causation. Ice cream eating is closely correlated with drowning. Either can be closely predicted given the other. So, what causes what?

A few years ago some ding-bat congresswoman showed that increases in taxes on beer was closely correlated with an improving economy. She wanted to increase taxes on beer as a means of spurring the economy.

In a word: Bullshit. People go to the beach and eat ice-cream when the weather turns warm. Some of the beach goers drown. The beer thing is a very mild coincidence.

But, consider this. A few years ago my wife bought me the video game "Doom." It made me run a gamut of emotions similar to those you feel reading a good novel. It had the feel of running a good simulator. When I stopped playing, I had the feeling of waking from a particularly realistic and gruesome dream.

The effect on me wore off. But what effect could total immersion in that have on some kid who was raised by L.L.Cool J., Steven Seigel, and these horrible slasher movies?

For my part, I am not willing to reject out of hand the idea that those things desensitize young skulls-full-of-mush to the suffering of others, and present "mowing 'em down" as an appealing option.

I just read Don Smith's post. Some of the irony and cop-talk used here sounds pretty stark when taken out of the context of the conversation and without an understanding of the people doing the talking. A creative and unscruplous newspaper hack could present this group as unfavorably as he could a chat room for child molesters.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:46:10 (ZULU)

Anyone know the turn around time for repairs on Springfield scopes? And has anyone who had one repaired had to send it back more than once? More than twice? When I get it back I will put it back on the M1A but if its breaks a second time I will put it on my Savage 10FP in 223. I may become a Loopie or nothing user if it breaks more than once. I have had a Vari-X II since 1984 with no problems on my deer rifle. I probably only put 1K rounds threw it but it has held up nicely.

The book "On Killing" is a very good read. I don't know about the apart dealing with sex though. I can hardly pee while being stared at muchless preform well in the rack with kids in the room. Oh, the book "Lost Son" about the police commissioner of NY seems to be a good book as well. He has a great management style.

HDR< good seeing you are still hanging around here.

Nick, Skynard sucks. I hate "Free Bird" and would like to destroy every copy of the song ever produced. Now, Molly Hatchet, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Jimmy Hendrix, Bob Sieger,those guys rock. But I can listen to Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, Haggard, Conway Twitty, John Anderson, Vern Gosden, Hank and Hank Jr., and Waylon too. Welcome to "Music Country".

Dirty Steve, Out.

Oh, Riffle Raffle. double Out.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:48:26 (ZULU)

Don Smith...

What is the URL of that POS?

JT...

You've been here, what?... a week, and you want to change the format?

Do you think the people that run this site are soooooo stupid that they don't know what's around in the way of software? Go read the archives and get with the program...

We LIKE this format... it has been discussed many times by the regulars, and everyone likes it this way.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 14:56:07 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I just emailed Mr. Daly. Here is what I sent him. Hope I wasn't out of line.

Mr. Daly,

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Nick Gebhardt and I am a regular reader of the web site mentioned in your article, Snipercountry.com. I am a Sergeant in the Mississippi National Guard and have four years active duty. During my active duty time I was deployed for 6 months to Bosnia. I love my country as much or probably more than you do. I am involved in the shooting sports and find that it is great fun and very difficult to be competitive.

Some of the statements that you referenced in your article were taken out of context. You would have to be a regular reader and understand that most of the regular posters on that site have met or at least talked to each other at one time or another. There is a term called camaraderie, I'm sure you may have heard of it, that current and former military/law enforcement personnel enjoy. The majority of the regular posters on that site are current or former, military or law enforcement personnel. We enjoy shooting precision rifles and competing against each other. Being that most of us have an extensive shooting background established, this is where we discuss better methods to keep our skills sharp. Along the way we can joke about certain subjects as this is what that word camaraderie is all about.

This web site is not to promote sniping of innocents. This web site in my own personal opinion, is a place to discuss the aspects of long range shooting, being able to hit a target at extended distances. I believe the tone of your article was set so as to bring an unnecessarily bad view of this particular web site and the Americans that regularly post there. Remember, the majority of the regulars on this site have been in combat situations or at least served their country. Please don't do them an injustice by implying that their intent is to provide information for any individual to practice sniping on innocents. The recent shootings outrage us just as much as they outrage all peace loving American citizens. This are my own thoughts and in no way reflect those of every member of the Snipercountry web site. Thank you for your time Mr. Daly.

Nick Gebhardt

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:02:57 (ZULU)

lito:

It's at the first of my post, but here it is again:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/story/25635p-24192c.html

Don

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:06:56 (ZULU)

OK guys don't eveybody go busten this dude from the New York Daily News! Let the Council handle it to start with!!

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:14:08 (ZULU)

On the press - Twist as you will, the truth can be seen by those with eyes and a brain.

On video games and kids - This is my opinion.

I don't think video games make monsters from good kids. I don't think it has much impact at all. The distinction between "fake" and "real" comes from a composite of life experience (be it real or not). The average kid (ghetto to yuppie) doesn't know life and death and is taught by the news, school, peer exposure and religion to "ignore" the realities around him or her.

The softening of humans into pudding is a concerted effort which finds it's origins in good and noble intentions.

To my eye, there are two products of our present society... I see it in my volunteer fire company every day... Young new guys walk in either as pudding or as young men. The young men have 'stones' and simply need to be shown the values they need to be good young men... the pudding is beyond my help and will always be pudding.

Reality is my tool of choice... the more the better. I give it in big doses, without immediate comment. When they come down off the adrenaline and can think again, I give very gentle guidance and insight...over time. This is no ego trip, it's simply letting the young man see the truth.

Teaching kids right from wrong cannot be done in a safe sterile environment...they must have a taste of life's peril before they can understand good from bad. You cannot tell someone the truth, you must let them see it, live it and then form an opinion based on fact.

Oh, also. Good and bad, I would rather live in a world where everyone had 'stones', I find the total waste of a life that is 'pudding' to be the most depressing of all fates for my fellow man.

medicjim <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:17:42 (ZULU)

ygm lito

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:18:30 (ZULU)

Anyone notice the press photo on the CNN webpage of the site where the woman was hit while sitting on a park bench? There is a solitary, well defined hole in the plate glass window behind the bench... trans-cranial intact round in .223? Hmmmm. We still thinking short range?<<<<

No, I'm thinking the guy is using a quality bullet that stays intact, like a Barnes X, a Nosler Partition or a Trophy Bonded. Makes it easier on the forensics people. Then again, it may have simply been too low velocity to cause FMJ fragmentation.

Joe M, in WWII we deliberately set out to kill as many people as possible in Japan, that's why we went with napalm and WP. The reason was that Japan had a decentralized manufacturing base where lots of people worked out of widely scattered small shops. The solution was to kill everybody we could. Same with Dresden. I have no desire to waste civvies for the crime of being from X country, but if they get in the way of the survival of US troops(eg human shields for the BG's), than it's going to be too bad for them.

'Lito, most towel heads aren't nearly as towel head looking as you'd think. Besides, with America being the land of unlimited diversity, everybody fits in. Besides, everybody is scared of being accused of discriminating. Also, when someone shoots, the immediate focus is generally on the target, who tends to attract attention via lots of screams and crowds etc. This means that very few people actually look around for the shooter, which makes getting away easy.

Andy's Dad, could you send me any info on the NTIS and anything you've found? I'd appreciate it.

New York Newspaper assholes: The folks here are generally military and former military, police and other decent citizens. We come here to talk shop about a topic that most people don't understand and generally refuse to understand even if they could. You seem to fall into the "refuse to understand" category. We seek to become more proficient to save the lives of people that are important to us, whether that be fellow Marines, soldiers, police, family or just Joe Citizen who happened to get taken hostage due to bad luck. Some shoot to have fun, but I've seen more than a couple of these same private citizens donate their time and skills to train soldiers and Marines how to become better shooters in order to serve the national interest. Just because you have no desire to become more proficient at a vital military skill, don't bad mouth those who do. You fools have the privelidge to write whatever you wish in your bird cage liner because of people like those here who went out and killed those who would subjugate you. We'd appreciate it if you said, "thank you". We'll settle for you just shutting the Hell up. Print that in your paper! Semper Fidelis...Sgt Ken M Scout-Sniper Platoon, 2nd Bn/24th Marines, 4th MarDiv

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:18:45 (ZULU)

Roger that Sarge. That shit just pissed me off rather quick ya know. My appologies.

Nick

Nicholas Gebhardt <gebhardt02@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:20:27 (ZULU)

Sorry Sarge, I fired one off. It wasn't too bad. Here is what I sent. After you read it please be gentle with me. I didn't got to 16 Grammer schools:

Mr. Daly,

Thank You for failing to mention to your reader that the majority of the folks who post on "Sniper Country" are Law Enforcement, prior military and some active duty Special Forces. You would not want your readers to think that we are responsible adults. Or you made no mention or our current thread regarding the Maryland wacko. No one here thinks the guy is anything but a coward and a wanna be. We DAMN SURE DON"T ADMIRE HIM OR CONDONE WHAT HE IS DOING! I amprior service (ten years Army) and a police office in the ninth largest city in the country. Our department doesn't hire nut bars, wackos so why are you portraying the folks on this site as nut cases. We are Peace Officers and prior military folks discussing a subject that interests us.

But I guess sensationalizing something like this sells papers. And that's all that really concerns you. The facts are immaterial. The things you quoted were taken out of context and seem sinister. But I imagine with you attending 16 Grammar schools. You did not have the time to serve your countrys military to find out what, "Duty, Honor, Country" mean. Until you have served you can not know what commitment and self sacrifice truely is.

Sincerely,

Steve Dickerson (AkA Dirty Steve)

P. S. If you really want to write about something sick and perverted. Why don't you do a piece on the "MBLA" The Man Boy Love Association. cops truely hate folks that hurt kids.

OK I Fired off in haste. Lets all the the counsel handle this. Once again sorry Sarge.

Dirty Steve, out

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:24:03 (ZULU)

Nick G.

VERY professional and tactful! You spoke volumes in a tone that should suprise the media man! I'll bet a cold beer he expected rantings and illeterate babble from us! Sarge, continue the fight! Funny how we find ourselves constantly defending the Second Ammendment by correctly using the First Ammendment!

Joe M.

Think you are on to something. The randomness of this "dumbass" (my vote for his alias/name, not capitalized nor respected) seems to be a method to his madness. Hopefully LE is looking at what the "dumbass" has not targeted, and will consider them as his future potential targets. The "dumbass" has not engaged a vehicle operator, or a public servant, or a runner or any other moving target. The "dumbass" is not "showing off" skills, he is only taking "gimme" opportunities. My prayer is that he is caught in the act and delt with on the street, swiftly and silently, without media fanfare.

(in)Sain,

Me thinks Skynard is some good pickin'music, bro!

Stay safe!

Les

Les <LesMartin338@aol.com>
Canton, CT, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 15:59:39 (ZULU)

Steve: I am sorely disappointed.

All the one's you named were great.

But no Freebird ?

Something's wrong with ya boy.

Something's seriously, seriously wrong with ya boy.

You sure you're from the South ? My God man.

No shit ? No Freebird ?

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:10:26 (ZULU)

People are looking at this page who have never been here before. Ill thought out flames will give that reporter more material to take out of context. Calm down, everybody. Engage brain.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:12:08 (ZULU)

free bird gets a lil lengthy but that song rocks. personally tho. Give me a lil charlie Danials devil went down to georgia and a cold beer

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:22:04 (ZULU)

On the video games thing... I still hold my ground on that. Millions of kids play video games that are more violent that the worst that life has to offer... then they turn it off, and get on with the getting on. A few broken people get lost and do damage, but they didn't get started with the games, and if the games weren't there, they would still have flipped out.

But we are society that LOVES to blame our problems on something else.

We have lousy weather it's global warming, or the ozone hole (neither is true!!)... but years ago, it was the atom bomb tests, the cutting of the rain forrest... you name it, we gotta excuse for it.

No one want's to admit that our perfect society has social problems, that 30+ years of latch key kids have given us a lot of misdirected kids. Back in the 40's and 50's, EVERY highschool had a rifle team, and a range in the basement... even in NYC, the public highschools had rifleteams, and kids took their rifles on the bus... where were the violent acts then, with all that "loose, un-supervised access to firearms"?

It wasn't needed!

When I was in college, I wanted to be a psycologist (it was very "IN" in those days... got you a lotta chicks!). But after a few years and 22 credits, I dumped it, cuz I saw the game... it was publish "studies" at any price. So I offer you these scientific studies on the behavior of humans:

Most killers in jail have a history of drinking beer!

Most drug addicts used peanut butter and jelly when they were young!

Most shop lifters had problems adjusting to adolescence!

Almost all child molesters have read copies of Playboy!

This could go on forever, and did when I was in college... it was page after page of studies that sounded soooooo scientific, until you realized that they ment nothing.

As for terrorests blending in... every one that has been caught and shown on TV would stand out in the typical suburban neighborhood... especially in Maryland this week, carring a gun case... I rest my case.

JT...

"yhm", NOT!... it never got here.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:33:20 (ZULU)

Sarge, you got it. Let me know if / when the ground support should move in. Eloquence is my middle name 8p

It's lovely that such people as ourselves, who have given to our country so much, are now looked upon with derision, for absolutely nothing more than assuming that we would best be served by doing what we do. I know of nobody here that has ever glorified violence. I know of many here that have lived through it, due to skill at arms and luck.

Courage is grace under pressure - Hemingway

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:33:34 (ZULU)

danged double tap

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:33:34 (ZULU)

Sarge, Once again, Sorry. When I see something wrong I just go for it. It's my impaient cop attitude I guess. Or a left over NCO trait.

CDC, Let's engage Brian. Ok, Brian, They played that damn song so often when I was a kid that I couldn't and still can not stand it. I will leave the room or turn it off when it comes on. Oh, I forgot ZZ Top. That is your neck of the woods I believe.

CDC, I know you typed engage brain, but the simularity in spelling just made for a good segway.

The reporter just ticked me off badly. Making us out to look like misfits and wackos. If I were a Psyco killer would I really show dogs as a hobby? Yeah I terrify folks prancing around the show ring with my little GSP bitch on the lead. Oh, next week I will be showing a male GSP out of the number two bitch in the country. He's six months and quite a handful. Anyone wanna tell me why he can be outside all day them come in at night and Pee on the kitchen floor first thing?

Edit> Hemingway, was a drunken womanizer. For this and other reason I admire him. ;)

Dirty Steve, going to lurk mode. Well actually going to work.

Steve Dickerson <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 16:53:27 (ZULU)

Anyone remember "Saturday Night Special"?

Pretty good band. I just change stations when that POS tune comes on.

And I am SICK of "Freebird", and that long-ass tune by Frampton, and...

Gimme a break.

Media sucks. Can't trust 'em. Anybody who spent time in the military during the Viet Nam era knows that. Anytime one wants to talk to me I ask 'em up front if they're a "liberal". Two admitted it and one had done time in 'Nam and was "one of us". But he only does freelance for little feature papers here in the central valley.

And these were medical and foster baby related interviews!

rant;

off

Spud

dennis <usmcspud@msn.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:01:47 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

I am unfamiliar with our council--but I'm thinking we are refering to our hosts...right?

To those who would defend this site and us'n who post here:

You have my explicit permission to use my name and status in the validation of this sites' usefulness towards real world, LEGAL application of the info posted here. I am and will be responsible for training of soldiers, resourcing this training and when possible, conducting this training (NCOs do, but I step in with their permission to prove that training is for ALL soldiers). Distortions such as this article are examples of irresponsible journalism. To report the facts stipulates discipline. To subjugate your ego and your personal agenda is a trait that sadly does not exist widespread in that field...but unbiased news is allegedly touted as the standard. I can read any paper and tell you each reporters' political affiliation without fail. That is unbiased? Their choice of adjectives spills thier guts for all who think critically to see. This isn't the free exchange of info--it is a blatant attempt of thought control. Their denials are disingenuous in the face of the written (and spoken) evidence. This article is just another example. I have resisted the impulse to unload on this guy...I shall defer to the "council."

Back to why I come here:

Why are controlled round feed actions considered inferior to push feed? I own both, and both function flawlessly. But, I want my only custom stick to be absolutely the best of everything..so inquiring minds wanna know the consensus!

dirtbag in MD: is the card a psyop? I still think "T"

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:37:53 (ZULU)

Andys' dad,

Thanks for the tip on software. Just what I needed. I don't have one of those palm things but they sent the software for that. If anyone needs it, I'll bring it to the match. Email me.

John

John <acehighbmg@mindspring.com>
B'town, IN, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:41:05 (ZULU)

I noticed Daly repeatedly used the canard that "the firearms industry has helped foster [sniper rifles] in recent years to bolster dwindling gun sales". This is straight out of the Violence Policy Center's play book, copied verbatim from their press releases and position papers. Of course, Daly's alleged journalistic ethics wouldn't extend to attributing the source of his "facts", especially when revealing his plegarism might tip off readers to how slanted his coverage of the issue is.

Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
CA, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 17:49:37 (ZULU)

‘lito

Please read the book “On Killing” by LTC David Grossman before you begin a peer review of his work.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/qid=1034186080/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-8766252-5311002

Check out Chapter Three “B.F.Skinner’s Rats and Operant Conditioning at the Video Arcade”.

I find the author’s arguments persuasive and well supported as you might too if you read his work.

I am familiar with the “correlation vs. causation” concept but thanks for the review.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:08:22 (ZULU)

Joe, the push feeds are supposedly better for a tactical rig. You can toss a round into the chamber, slam the bolt home, and go. No worries about slipping it under the feed lips for the controlled feed. Depending on how the barrel is relieved for the extractor, you can get away with this maneuver with a controlled feed type extractor too, although it's hardly recommended due to the extractor not being designed to take this kind of flex routinely. If the barrel isn't properly relieved for the extractor, you have a hang-up, and no real way to get the unfired round out of the chamber without a cleaning rod or something to grab the extractor groove to pry with, and no way to close the bolt.

Personally, I don't have a problem with one or the other. I've always preferred controlled round feeding myself. The next rifle will be built on a push feed though, for just this purpose. Heck, everyone needs one of each, right?

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:09:06 (ZULU)

"Courage is grace under pressure" was F. Scott Fitzgerald, wasn't it?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:09:26 (ZULU)

Joe,

the 'council' consists of Marius, PeteR, Sarge, and X-ring.(correct me if I'm wrong hawgs)

We should indeed let these folks sort Mr. Daly out. As eloquent as we is, in 'telling him off' we could say something which can be taken completely out of context, which could snowball into something worse in next weeks NY newspapers. They'll splice part of one sentence to another until it reads to their political inclinations. Let the admin handle this, it's what they are there for.

mrbullet, sweepman:

I'm sending an email to youse

time for a pint, later aye

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:30:40 (ZULU)

...you guys are so nice (Nick, CDC, etc.).....Mr. Daly you can kiss my big old ASS !!! Print that and don't forget to spell the name with two "o"'s....

Sorry guys....its people like him and Jesse Jackson, Luis that keeps the turd machine stinking in this world and its way past time that the squeaky wheel is just left to rust away and leave if thay don't like it !!!

Freebird, yes......CCR, sucks !!!

JRMoore

JRMoore <utl@shentel.net>
Northern, Virginy, USofWonderfulA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 18:37:28 (ZULU)

Yeah, you guys knock it off! Here we are with the eyes of the world upon us and you guys are talkin about rock bands. What a disgrace!

Don't you know reporters know this is a conservative, law abiding, no pot smokin, haven of snipin baby killin monsters! Sure we get quoted out of context, here I'm quoted about Jelly Brains and get in the paper when I'm only talkin about Jelly Beans! tsk tsk!

What the world should know is they are lookin in the wrong place for some pimp wannabee killer. The worst of us here.. hell, my wife could make the shots this guy is makin with here 1874 Antique Sharps with Iron sights.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 19:18:26 (ZULU)

My response to Mr. Daley

Mr. Daley, I have read your article in the DAILY NEWS on the information shared by shooters on sniper related web pages. As one who frequents these pages, I own many firearms. I have attended tactical shooting classes and am proud to say that the information gained from these endeavors has made me a finer marksman. I have increased my knowledge of firearms, tactics, ballistics, and my ability to judge distances. I have learned how wind, altitude, temperature and humidity affect each an every round that I fire, at any distance. This information has not made me a terrorist, or a killer. It has made me a more confident and competent marksman.

I have owned and shot firearms all of my life. I own what is loosely called by the liberal press both assault rifles and sniper rifles. I learned to shoot in The Boy Scouts of America, and the United States Army taught me more about shooting, and the costs of freedom.

You see Mr. Daley, the freedom that you so enjoy as you judge others and so proudly share with millions through the press, comes to you not through the lofty endeavors of the poet, the author, or the editor. Those freedoms were granted to you by brave men centuries ago who held rifles in their arms. The learned the art of the rifle from their fathers, their brothers, their neighbors and their friends. They shared this information in any way that they could because they knew that there wouyld be times in their lives when what they knew was important.

Today is no different. We still learn to shoot from others, we learn fieldcraft, survival, and tactics from those who have been there, and know what it takes to be successful and survive. These are skills that some seem to think that we no longer need. We have smart bombs, laser guided, with pinpoint accuracy. We have cruise missiles, tactical nuclear weapons, billion dollar hardware that has taken the idea of war and conflict to a level that was previously unimaginable. Our military service learned in both the great wars, as well as in Korea and Viet Nam that the man with the rifle was indispensable. It was a lesson that unfortunately we had to learn over and over with each conflict, until the Army and Marines finally formed the Sniper training programs that they have today.

The people that you are so critical of on many of these sniper websites are police officers, military personnel, active, reserve and retired. Patriots of all types who know that the skills and knowledge that they talk about and share with others are ones that we as a nation cannot afford to let slip away. We cannot afford to let them slip away because we know that in future conflicts, as we have learned in the past, that the wars will be won by one man, with his rifle. As it has been, and so it will be, over and over again. Our country kept safe and secure by a marksman. The same marksman who over two hundred years ago secured for you the freedom of speech, and has allowed you to publish your mind, without fear of reprisal or censure. This is the man that many of us hold in a place of honor, and without which our world would be a very, very different place.

Dennis Muldrew

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 19:21:35 (ZULU)

Mr. Muldrew,

A great response and very thoughtful.

All:

I realize this isnt "Intel Country" but I am in a bind and many of you are knowledgeable about world events/international affairs.

I am currently writing papers on "Rebuilding Afganistan" and need additional sources for info (articles, analysis, papers, disertations) - anything!

I'm also researching for a possible paper on Chechnya, Georgia or the Caspian Basin (and related countries/republics).

If anyone has any good online sources, please hook me up.

(Email would be appreciated!)

My research well is going dry here.

Thanks,

DakotaAviator <DakotaAviator@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 20:27:29 (ZULU)

dont know whats wrong with my mail , i copied and pasted a few into 1 i dont know what was sent and what wasnt. and what ya already wrote back too because this thing crashed AGAIN

JT <MuldoonJ@optonline.net>
CT, United States of America - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 20:56:26 (ZULU)

Bill "Jelly Bean" Rogers makes a good point. Careful how you talk Bill, someone could research our past pie fights and decide that you are a dangerous lunatic.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 20:57:04 (ZULU)

Getting Torqued:

Range day last Sat. Finally got to shoot the Winny Coyote .308 that's been in the safe for about 3 months. Got the barrel channel releived so it's not touching the barrel (thanks 'lito).

Didn't have time to load so took a couple of boxes of 175 gr GMM. First round from cold clean barrel hit 1.75 high & dead on in windage @ 100 yds. This from only a boresighting. I'm thinking, damn I'm getting good at setting one up. Next round, with no adjustment, hits about 3" left and 2" low. WTF? Third round is less left but about 3 high.

Stopped shooting to think a while. Front and rear screws are both torqued to 65 in. lbs. The night before I read an article in American Rifleman" about pillar bedding the tang screw on 98 Mausers. The author mentioned that the rear screw on Mausers and Winchesters should only be torqued to about 25 in. lbs.

With nothing to loose, I broke out the torque wrench and retorqued the front to 65 and the rear to 25. Ran a bore snake through once and proceeded to give it another try. 1st round about 3" high and 2" right. Next 4 rounds in ghe same spot for a nice .68 group.

Lesson learned...There's exceptions to every rule.

Now to work up a Varget load.

Question...This is a factory laminated stock and I can't afford an aftermarket McMillian or HS right now. Given the above performance, do you guys think I'd gain anything from bedding the factory stock?

Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, US of A - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:05:15 (ZULU)

Dakotabird-man,

You got mail. Subject research on a'stan. I got kin in SD, or so I've been told.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:06:36 (ZULU)

MadDog,

That M118 you have (not M118 Special Ball?) is pure crap and may cause you to go out on the streets and start shooting people. It was filled by the maker with a special ju-ju powder that will turn you into a killer with one whiff!

But boy do I have good news for you. I happen to be one of the only licenced disposal technicians in the country, and have privately owned facilities to accomplish that task.

Just wrap all that you have in your possession to UPS or FedEx standards and ship it directly to me. I will incur and/or reimburse you for all expenses. Please e-mail me directly for shipping address.

Thank you,

ALAN (The Ammo Disposal Man)

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:35:22 (ZULU)

Sorry my original question was incomplete / unclear.

The barrel is the stock barrel that came with an AR-10T, 24", 4 lands and grooves, 1:11.5" twist, stainless. I've not been able to determine who made it.

I bought the AR to experiment with; I never expected bolt gun accuracy from it which is good because the best 5 shot group I've ever gotten from it was right at one MOA (100 yards). A lot of times, I'll get four shots into a half inch at 100 yards but that fifth shot will open the group up to 1 - 1.5" (using match ammo, several different flavors). I've read here that some folks do much better with their 10T's and I've personnaly watched one guy shoot a 1/2" group at 100 yards with his stock (except for the scope) A-4.

The 1/64 th inch spacing on the rings is an estimate based on my best guess that eight rings would fit into 1/8 th inch.

I wonder if the appearance of the rings may be created by the light itself (refraction / defraction, don't know. I had to cheat on the optics test in Physics and I still only got a C).

The rings appear on both the lands and the groves and are visible as far down the bore as the light will illuminate (probably less than an inch).

The cotton swabs on the wooden sticks come in bulk packages (100 count). We have two sizes, 3 and 6 inch. The 6 inch size comes in a package with an autoclave indicator strip.

I'm thinking of cutting the barrel back to 22" and see what happens. Like I said, it's an experiment. If it was perfect from the start, I'd have to find something else to play with.

Thanks for the help.

Steve <stevesix@hotmail.com>
Tampa Bay, FL, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:48:56 (ZULU)

Don,

Generally speaking, that 65 in. lb. figure was intended for aluminium bedding block (like the H-S Precision) or pillar bedded, or strongly compound bedded synthetic stocks (like the McMillan).

Maybe even more importantly, that center action screw in the Winnie should be a maximum of maybe 8 lbs. I just slowly tighten mine until the floorplate closes properly, then check the resultant torque value. I've had anywhere from 6 to 18 lbs. and that last one was from the Winchester Custom Shop!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 21:50:57 (ZULU)

Dag nab it! I work and I work to make as many posts as possible and still do not get recognized by Daley for my efforts.

Rosterferians, you are taking this whole thing the wrong way! We now have exposure to at least the 10 or so people that read that rag. Bruce got free advertisement. Rogers is now a wound analysis expert. Brian is SOL and will be divorced any day now. Dang guys, enjoy the exposure!

Just so Daley has something else to bitch about, I will opine sumpin else on the shooter in MD. He may not be carrying a riffle. Rem XP's and Striker bolt pistols also come in 223 if I remember correctly. Easily concealable, etc.

Off to lap some rings on one of those nasty old sniper rifles, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 22:10:22 (ZULU)

CDC; your right!!! I've been a little depressed since I found out from you that my mother is still a virgin and I'm probably just a little paranoid too..wait a minute I think somebody's trying to break in...gosh it's only the mail man, "Honey don't shoooot!" OK..., wonder what he's up too, probably another one of those letters with the white stuff... But my wife is the right wing religious fanatic and the real dangerous one and she's no virgin most of the time. I'm not really that brave to post that, but she can't read anything but a Mil dot Master, (That evil computer thing we use against the evil doers of the world).

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 22:16:40 (ZULU)

Shi'thead(the asswhipe in MD);

I believe he's been here before. I don't think he stuck around very long though. I think he was looking for info that we don't cover here. I'd bet he's been to EVERY gun website around, not just this one.

If he's a TERR, he didn't need a website. Trained by others over there and maybe here too.

If I were to make a guess at it, I'd say he's shooting a Mini-14.

It's cheap and readily available(probably stolen). He's using iron sights, the last few shots seem to be aimed center mass. He's using the $5 a box bullits from Wal-Mart. I just have a feeling he's not using high end stuff.

Newspaper;

I believe that someone(a Hollywoody or politico) once said "Any press is good press."

Maybe some of those readers will check us out and see he's full of cracksmoke.

SKYNYRD ROCKS;

They did do "Saturday Night Special" but they also done "Gimme Back My Bullits."

.223 handgun;

Yes, the Striker is available in .223. I started to buy one but went for the .308. About the most awkward gun I've shot. I'll get used to it though.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 23:41:41 (ZULU)

"Jelly Bean" Rogers: I'm not talking about your belief that the mailman is getting coded messages from Planet Zorp on his bridgework. David "Baghdad" Bonier has ideas at least that eccentric and he is the Democrats House Whip.

What I meant was your preference for Sheepherders to Loopys, AKs to ARs, and (break out the butterfly nets) Tupperware to John M's undying masterpiece.

Joe M.: There are supposed to be some strength and accuracy advantages to the push feed. I am agnostic on those questions, but think the feeding and manipulation of the push feed from the prone are much easier. When single feeding there is no comparison.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 00:30:16 (ZULU)

I will bet this Maryland fruitcake is a teenager or in his twenties, and a shunned nut like the two idiots from Columbine. Why? Shooting defenseless innocents, leaving this megalomaniac "I am God" card, and shooting children.

The card means he craves attention and notoriety (people don't normally give this cheese-dick the time of day, so he's retaliating at the world).

Weapon probably a stolen cheapo WallyKMart bolt gun (from his parents or other relative) with a generic deer hunting scope. Little experience, so he shoots close-in (150 yards) distances where even a Ruger makes up for his lack of skill and inability to hit squirrels and rabbits.

Probably got a buddy he can dominate (another loser) who serves as his lookout and driver.

I hope the cops nail these psychos quickly, before more innocents suffer from his delusions of grandeur. Or better yet, get them convicted and thrown into "population" with a bunch of guys with 13 year-old kids and relatives in Montgomery County.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:30:15 (ZULU)

Daley must have reasearched that article over a year ago as "Bain" aint posted here for about 2 years.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:35:46 (ZULU)

Hey Fellers,

Couple a things. Can anyone think of a good reason why I shouldn't sell my Swedish Mauser so I can finally get Badger rings/bases for my PSS? It's a right purdy riffle, but I never shoot it and the ammo is too expensive for a casual plinker. Ah hell, I'm gonna regret sellin it, but life is full of regrets.

As far as media press types go,

Until the higher-ups here get things ironed out, remember (especially for these sensitive touchy feely types) in e-mails etc. more can be accomplished with honey than vinegar. Let the legal sharks etc. dispense da' vinegar. I'm sure they'll let us know when it's clear to fill the ole super-soaker with rotten apple juice. Just my $.02

Later,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:44:46 (ZULU)

Shucks; I apologize for David that filling fell out and without the mother ship messages...now he thinks Sadamm is his lost kid brother. Common, everybody has their fetishes. Tupperware is more of a bad habit than fetish I's guessin. Even Ronnie liked Jelly Beans for goodness sake. Just cause I use a few for target practice I catch all this crap. AK or AR whas the difference when you get down to it? Didn't I apologize enough for that Sheepherder glass?

We gonna tell them guys how to get rid of that Sniper wannabee? Ya do it jus like I do these yotes. You go to huntin him when he hunts and settin up ambush traps in his territory. IF he's a real deal just being clever to look like a wannabee he'll know he's done when he's being hunted by another (quote)Sniper and he'll put it away or move cause it ain't no fun catchin .308 in your teeth or eye socket. (By the way world, you can't get a Sniper with artillery)I hope you get my drift. If he's ;just a wannabee he won't last long in a little place like that Maryland State. Half dozen real deal snipers will sniff him out and deliver the Jelly his Bean shot when he tries another hit. He's about to run out of luck I think. LE Don't go bunchin up and searchin in them woods though like I seen on CNN today. I'd be too happy were I a Sniper in there waitin. Ya never know when he's gonna go offensive. Do it one tree at a time, point man first. Maybe it just looked that way.

"ONE SHOT ONE KILL!" yeah we do say that don't we? Didn't we get that from that silly Sniper Movie? Ah na maybe that Actor fella Tom whatsisname got it from us. I think maybe that's about 50 years old really. First time I heard it was some old Army Sniper down at the fort about 40 years ago claimin some hits on a Nazi in the tree rows a few year before that. It has more to do with accuracy than killin. Just want all our NEW readers to get it right.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:45:49 (ZULU)

Jody; I had one (Striker) in .223; clumsy surenuff. That Muzzle device though, neater hell! Hope you got one on your .308.

Lemme add this. One of the LE people made the comment on TV that the Sniper was "playing God". The response on the card was a direct response to that I think, I am God! Should be read "I AM! God." Not terribly revealing but one must not sell this guy too short yet. My point is he doesn't actually think he... IS God! Imagine the dicipline it takes to drop the hammer once or twice, make the kill and split. This one isn't a suicidial maniac, he's a bit of a showman I'm afraid. He wants to get by with it. The worse kind.

Gooch, that quote of mine was way back too. He just didn't have time to read the whole thing I guess.

Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
- Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 01:50:01 (ZULU)

'lito, incoming, MEK, again. No attachments.

Larry

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!! - Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 02:05:02 (ZULU)

Brogers;

Unfortunately, no, mine doesn't have the muzzel brake. It's accurate though. I just put a Rifle Basix 3lb. trigger in it. Much nicer now.

Jody Calhoun <gotrektheslayer@comcast.net>
Saraland, AL-Hea