Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 18, 1999 to September 25, 1999

I'm pissed. Had to stay at the local AO to cover State Hazmat. First 36 person team team of strictly medical personnel went out Thursday. Getting another Strike Team up to go out Monday and maybe just maybe will get to go ride them thar choppers. Many people stranded and hospital personnel having to be choppered in and out in several locations. Pentagon sent a supper dupper radar plane to handle rescue air traffic.

SORT team is on permanent standby until end of October. First team out for entire east coast. Carlos now looking real bad. Twix her and himacanes, work, daughter in college and everything else, damn! Have had no time to shoot, no time to build gillie.

Gert is on Floyd's ass. Don't place your bets yet!

Catastrophic, 1000 year flooding in eastern NC. Took daughter 9.5 hours to get home from UCU for a usually 4 hour drive. All roads east of 95 in NC are impassable.

RBowcher, are you flooded out?

Will check in before I leave, if I leave.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 00:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.189.65)

Larry...
The Winchester M70 Laredo is a design called a "Bean Field" rifle. They are designed to hunt deer across the West Texas Soy Bean fields, where shoots are 500-600 yards.
The 7mm STW (Shooting Times Westerner) is a cartridge based on the 8mm Remington Mag... which is a hell of a lot bigger than the 7mm Rem Mag, or the 300 Win Mag.

As to the "almost no recoil"... HA... this puppy will get your attention when it goes off... it is stiff. I would sugest you go to the gunshop, and hold one next to a 7mm Rem mag, or a 300 Win mag to get an idea of whats inside.

Barrel life will be very short... 800 to 1500 rounds. This is a long range hunting round, and barrel life in not a consideration.

It can be loaded down a bit, but barrel life is going to be short, and very large cartridges don't respond well to very light charges... accuracy is crappy, no matter what you do.

"Is it as bad as say a .220 Swift?"
Much Worse!!

Jewel makes a trigger for the M70... it's $185 from Bruno's.

"This would be my first Winchester M70, and while I am pretty familiar with making remingtons shoot, I am skeptical about building a rifle on this platform. In case the factory barrel doesn't shoot worth a damn are there other custom barrels for this action (I would hope so)"

Every good barrel maker makes match, and benchrest grade barrels for the M70 action... no problem.

When the NRA tested the M70 Laredo against the Rem Sendero, and other "Bean field" rifles, the Winchester came in tops in grouping... under a minute of angle at 500 yards.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 01:06:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.71)

Okay "Gentlemen".
I need some expert advice...I have a Leupold VARI-X III 6.5x20 EFR A.O. and a Mo's bridge mount, (a one piece Picatinny/Weaver type base to get the elevation for 1000 yards). I need to know what type/height ring to use to allow clearance to slide the scope on and off to use the aperature sights. Prefer quick release type, money is a concern, but I still may get off the dead presidents if the differences make it worth it. I am thinking Leupold QRW or mark 4, Badger if I can get info on them, have even thought about making my own (too much time & effort, I'd rather pay for something done on a CNC). Any help appreciated.
Thanks
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
western, pennsylvania, USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 03:49:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.232)

Here is a quote from the great Roman stratagist, Vegetius. I thought you might all enjoy, I know it arouses my soul.
"All arts and trades whatever are brought to perfection by continual practice. How much more should this maxim, true in inconsiderable matters, be observed in affairs or importance! And how much superior to all others is the art of war, by wich our liberties are preserved, our dignities perpetuated and the Provinces and the whole empire itself exist."

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 04:01:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.186.207)

I’m looking for a heavy-barreled .308. For reasons of familiarity, if nothing else, the varmint-contoured 700 with a H-S stock was my first choice. Search as I may, the only one I found has a fluted barrel that, for some reason, the factory ported. Too tricky for my tastes.

No problem. High-Power shooters are having good results with the Winchester M70/HBV ( #535-013220). Despite the fact that it’s a bit of a load to haul around, people I have reason to defer to (distinguished experts and such) say its a much better value. (Don’t flame me, I love my Remingtons as much as you love your’s.)

Now, even at the big dealers back east, I can’t find a Winchester. GunsAmerica is no help.

Is anyone else having trouble finding a simple varmint-style .308 from one of the big two makers?

And, Larry. Go to your local ammo seller and ask to look at a box of 7mm Rem rounds and a box of 7mmSTW. Pull a round of each out and compare them. Firing, oh, 30 rounds of 7 mag in one sitting screws up my follow-through for weeks. I start to 'fuzz-out' rather than seeing the cross-hairs through the shot and letting the shot fall dead. I haven't fired the STW, but I have looked in awe at the cartridge. No thanks. Too short of a recoil impulse. It loosens my fillings just looking at it.

CDC

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 05:01:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.43)

CDC - looking for stuff:

Try looking at:

http://www.shotgunnews.com - you can find some stuff there
http://www.gunauction.net - active auctions of stuff... so-so
http://www.gearout.com - alot better - actually have selective searches. These are actual classified ad's. Lot's of winchesters and remingtons last time I looked.

Good Luck,

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 12:18:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

All - flip open scope covers.

Would like to confirm sizes with someone else out there. My scope is a Leuopold 4.5 x 14 x 50 LR tactical. The objective lens measures 2.3" - the eyepiece measures 1.56". According to the Butler Creek website - this means a #11 for the eyepiece and a #43 for the objective. Could any of youn'z out there confirm/adjust my findings.

Thanks in advance,

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 18:58:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Remington Trigger Part

I had a Remington 40XR single shot rimfire target gun toen down for several month in antisipation of parkerixing it (its reciever was badly pitted when I recieved it) but the chemicals have yet to show up from http://www.shootersolutions.com. Its starting to look like a real screwed up organisation. Next step: a letter to Visa, I suppose.

Aaaanyway, in the interim the detent ball that loads the saftey lever has take a bad bounce someplace. Anybody know of a sourse or, barring that, anybody happen to know the diameter of the ball so I can get a generic one?

Thnaks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in the nearly Floyd-free state of, SC, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 03:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.237)

Ken,

We have the same scope (Leupold 4.5-14x50 LR MilDot Tactical). Your numbers for the Butler Creek scope caps match mine but a little caveat. If you have the sun shade on your scope, it has a large OD than the optics bell does. My dealer didn't have the right size in stock so I went one over a lined it with a piece of electronics foam tape (very thin stuff and non-adhesive). Worked just fine.

I think this scope is underrated, especially for long range work. All someone need do is check the huge range of adjustment for both vertical and horizontal planes.... 80" @ 100 yards or 800" @ 1000 yds. Great stuff!

-=[Bob]=-
Bob (SD) <bald1@usa.net>
USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 03:57:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.207.119)

Anyone here ever order from www.gibrass.com??
I've just placed an order for a thousand once-fired 7.62 and was wondering what I'll be receiving. Hopefully not all of it has been shot through an M1A...
I guess I'll know for sure in a couple of days huh?
Not a bad price, and I'll let ya'll know what I get!!

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 07:30:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.33)

Well, I changed some pages last night and am actually surprised not to see any comments about it here yet - you guys are normally very quick to pick up these small details.

It is my great pleasure to announce that Sniper Country has officially got another member. Pete Reiff, also known as peteR, is now a member of the team, and I am sure all of you will agree that he has shown the knowledge, and willingness to share, to make an even greater contribution to the site than he has done so up till now as a visitor.

Garry, Scott and myself welcome him - now I have somebody new to pass all the "difficult" questions to :-)

Welcome Dude, hope you enjoy it.

Marius
Webmaster

PS The Duty Roster and Emporium names will also be changed shortly when I archive, but first I've got a dirty little bottom to clean.

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 09:59:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.15.184.11)

Good lord Marius, what did you do? Offer PeteR a whole folk of them sheepies?

No wonder he's been on line so much here lately!
bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 14:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.72)

i'm a newbie so forgive me. this question is probably old as dirt, but i have yet to find any info on it. moly-coated bullets or not coated? what is the general consensus on using them. those Winchester Supreme 168gr ballistic tips look mighty good. i can get a hell of a deal on them too. but they are moly-coated, so i need the professional opinion first. these are being shot through a nicely bedded, tasco super snipered Savage 10FP in .308win. thanks in advance!

Doug
Doug Lewis <dougl3@prodigy.net>
Concord, NC, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 16:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.252.62.38)

Bruce Hilsabeck:

I have ordered a lot of the same brass from the same sourse. You will be happy to know that it has not been run through an M14. You will be less happy to know that it has been run through an M60 or M240. :)

Yup, its MG brass and has had the bejesus stretched out of it. It will likely go about two loads in an M1A and that'll be about it. Otherwise it is reasonably clean and will tumble up bright in no time. Most of the last batch I recieved was '90s dated. Good stuff, for the money.
gibrass.com is a good outfit to do business with.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in the lovely state of, SC, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 17:28:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.209)

PeteR,
Congrats Dude!! My e.mail is down so I will breif you on SC since others may have interest in the 155 Palma loads. I tried some with 46.5 of Varget in the new 308 with the Pac Nor barrel. It loves them. .3s and .4s with 4 of them mostly in .2s. I cronographed the load for you and it went 2907 to 2901 in my gun, now get this ES-7.1 with a SD-2.9 the worst was ES-24 with a SDof 9.8!!! and that was because of one round. I tred some of the new N-550 with the 168s and it pushed them to 2750 with groups in the low .5s and 4 of them sometimes in the .2s and .3s. This is all from a gun with less than 60 rounds through it using new brass.YES, I am happy!! The Varget load is doing 2823 with the LC brass I think I will back it down a grain or so to see how it does. I will e.mail you later.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 19:37:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.232.39)

Gooch ,
exelent comments I think Paska's english is better than he lets on.
Remember OPSEC. Stay hard on the front sight. J.B 82nd Abn
Retired
john P. Burrell <Hardgun@earthlink.net>
Tx, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 21:15:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.191.153.145)

Re: HK-91/G-3
I purchased a PSG-1 trigger group for my HK-91 as well as the newest buffer / stock manufactured by H&K. Very expensive, but worthwhile. These two items have made hitting whatever I aim at MUCH easier and a true pleasure as my shoulder no longer aches after a few magazines. I doff my feldmütze to Torsten, and anyone else who uses G-3's, for being able to hit ANYTHING while using the standard trigger group.
The rifle does, however, still suffer from "empty chamber" syndrome.
I also have a few questions about the rifle and available accessories.
>
1. How durable is the PSG-1 trigger group-when given proper care? I would appreciate a response from anyone who has long term experience using the PSG-1 trigger group.
>
2. Does anyone still manufacture after-market bolt hold open magazine followers for the HK 91 magazines?
>
3. The August 1998 issue of the French magazine RAIDS (issue #147) had a photo article of German Parachute units using a mix of G-3's and G-36's. Why do some G-3's have large metal buffer tabs at the rear of the ejection port? Am I correct in presuming the reason for these tabs is to slow down case ejection and keep the spent cases out of the faces of the nearby soldiers?
Finis
Alain <tiptoe.thruthe2lips@laposte.net>
France - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 22:28:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

Can somebody tell me about this Steyr rifle or their rifles in general. It sells for about $825. I am trying to compare this rifle with a Remington PSS.

SBS HB Tactical Syn Stock ----------- Available .308.

26" Heavy barrel (HB), no sights, matte blue finish,
(2) removeable butt spacers, oversize bolt handle,
black bolt body, flush mounted QD swivels, drilled
and tapped for Browning A-Bolt 2 piece bases,
3 position safety, detachable magazine,
cold hammer forged barrel, receiver engraved "SBS Tactical HB"
and smooth wide trigger which is fully adjustable.

Tom <tomstuckey@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 00:19:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.180.129.208)

Hello,

I have been to this site a few times before and used to read the duty roster a lot, but haven't for a while (damm computer problems), so please excuse me if this question has been asked before.

I was thinking of buying an AN/PVS-4 in second gen. to mount on my AR-15 for varmits and my own ammusement. Does anyone have any experances with this scope, good or bad? Also do you thing that an AR and a PVS-4 are an effective combo? I was going to buy it from a company called NAIT, any experances with them?

Thanks,
Theo
MrF2@aol.com
Theo Martin <MrF2@aol.com>
Clackamas, OR, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 00:40:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.209)

I had to resign in after reading some of the postings and would like to
sound off about my experience. As to the 9mm vs 45 problem, When I was in the MTU's and USAMU we had a problem with the
changeover. Two MP's digging the slide of the Berreta out of
their forehead the thing is half aluminum for Gods sake. The
Vice President of Service Berreta USA Told a friend of mine that
there was no warranty on the gun and after 500 rounds he jerked it
down to the pins and had it magnafluxed. He could'nt belive that
my friend had 10,000 rounds through it and suggested that he never
fire it again, because after all the military bought it as a disposable
pistol. In the invasion of Grenada when I was in the 82 Abn we
found a Cuban with 8 rounds of 9mm from his right hip to his left shoulder. One of the Ranger Snipers had hit him with a MP-5. His
AK was empty and we found the Blood and bone Fragments about
25 yards behind him. We found another Cuban hit high in the chest
with a 45 the round had not left the body cavity and you could see
in the dirt where his feet flew out from under him. NUFF SAID.
As to LBE Try extending the Pistol belt so you can put more pouches
, canteens ect. extend the shoulder straps lower and unbuckle the
damn belt. We used to have to do this to get into a parachute harness and left it unbuckled so we did'nt get hung up in branches,
we were'nt laying on mag pouches and things were more accessable
than when it was belted up under your armpits.

Gooch, The last Russian I saw was in Grenada and I had a M203
stuck in his face, Not a wholly unpleasant experiance. Hardgun.
john P. Burrell <hardgun@earthlink.net>
Manor , Tx, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 00:51:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.191.184.19)

Alain; I have used about 6 of those PSG-1 Trigger groups under some fairly hard conditions. It will stay with you. Have no fear It's as good or nearly so as the original.
Hold open clips...Not sure if anyone manufactures those now but I don't think they are famous for their reliability.
IN G-3's a bunch of brass and it's all hitting that port without the buffers and it's pretty unpredictable where it will go. Trying to cut down on the range it throws it and it's a little more predictable with the buffer just where it will do.
John;I think the moral to your story is that it's better to hit with a MP-5 than miss with a AK.
Quick Story. Was in a Shooting Scenerio, Me with .45 1911 and other guy with a MP-5. We had both tied in a run and shoot timed match hostages, pepper poppers and such. Tie shoot off Target was standard cardboard police sillouette at 50 yards. Rules were most hits in the kill zone in 5 seconds. I had to start with holstered gun but he insisted that machine gunners start with hands on and belly high. I said "well why don't you just go ahead and take aim then!" He did. ON the buzzer he fired a 30 or 40 round clip (I can't remember which). I fired one shot. The winner had one .45 hole in the x ring. It was the only round in either target. There's a lesson there somewhere!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 02:58:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Binoculars:

Happened to be on the range the other day ( a lousy day on the range beats any day at work . . .) when a friend pulled out a pair of nice looking binocs, 7x50. Since I want to get a really nice pair of binocs for field and hunting, I took a look through them. The maker was IOR and the glass was amazing clear for something made in Romania (correct?). The look and feel struck me as a poor man's Steiner. So, any one else tried them or has them and can they tell me how they like them or any problems that they have had with them in field conditions? Curious before comtemplating buying a pair (yeah, yeah . . . I'd get a Steiner but the new transmission came in ahead).
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 06:18:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.133.73)

- First and foremost a hearty *congratulations* to PeteR! A very pleasant individual who has always been pretty damn nice to me and always one of the first to answer questions, be it on cutting foam or finding good deals on ammo. Great job Peter! I'm glad they put you on the team. Look forward to hearing more from yoou on this forum too!

- Someone asked about the Winchester Model 70 in .308.
Mine is almost broken in, and after good Ol Jerry Rice adjusted the trigger for me last week, yours truly is now able to hold 3/4 moa groups. That's without any other aftermarket modifications whatsoever. If the rifle will do this in my hands I imagine most of you could do even better. Less than 200 rounds down the tube but not one problem. Traders (who is linked off of the tacticalintervention.com site)was where I bought mine. I am sure he can get or has more. Ask for Mark.
He is a really good guy.

- Someone asked about 308PSS availability a while back.
Kerleys gun shop in Cupertino california had one of them last tiem I was in there.

- I note TRGT.com has some brand new images of their databook and other new images of thier items posted. Might be worth a gander.

- Finally I spent a very pleasant Saturday with Jerry Rice and his bride of 42 years. Undude (Mike Miller) has spoken of this wonderful riflesmith here before. Keep your eyes open! Nor-Cal Precision is about to enter the world of the web, with a little help from memorableplaces.com, and you'll be able to see his online catalogue within the next 2-3 weeks. :-)
JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 07:10:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Any comments or experience with progressive reloaders? Specifically the dillion 550/650 vs the hornady Lock n load automatic peogressive?
Jack Ouellette <beungood@aol.com>
Braintree, Mass, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 07:39:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.193)

Need some advice please on scopes. In the process of building a Flat Top, 24" Bull Barrel, AR-15. I'm a decent marksman and, like many, on a limited budget. I don't expect the little .223 to do "terminal" damage past 500 yards, so I'm looking for suggestions for a quality scope, under $400 that will hit my target at 100-500 yards.
Head Shot-type hits is my goal,not punching holes in dimes@500 yards. Suggestions??? Thank you in advance.
Glock Gunner <WreckXplr@yahoo.com>
CA, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 07:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.252.36.194)

Well I have a question for you "pros" in here.
Being that I live on a tropical island there are not many shops around that carry good cleaning equiptment so I have to order over the net.
I have seen a few sights that carry sweets and other solvents, but I am confused as how to order the Dewey cleaning rods..they have numbers like 22c-44 or 30c-17..are these calibers or what?..also along with jags and cleaning rod guides.....I am lost and confused..ALL I WANT IT TO SAY IS (.308 CAL.)..IS THAT SO HARD!!!...Can someone please help me? anyone got a specific website for ordering?...and about the numbers..what do i get? what number means it will work with .308??
Sorry Guys I know these are things I "should know"...but sorry I am new to all this, and want to do it right the first time, and i know you guys are the ones to ask.
By the way this equipment is for my Rem. 700 PSS .308cal
ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT.
Peanut <peanutking15@hotmail.com>
Little tiny, Island, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 08:02:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.128.10.142)

Jack Ouellette...

I have all three.

If you load a few hundred or so, of a lot of case head sizes, the Dillon 550 is the machine... it's slow, but easiest to change shell plates, and cheap. However, it is limited... the four die stations is not enough for most of my loading, so it winds up loading 22 Hornet, .218 Bee... stuff like that, that I'll make a run of, once a year.

The Lock-n-load is not expensive, and a pretty good machine... but it has some odd characteristics. The shell holder rotates as it travels up into the dies, and with long cases, and some of the "Match" seaters, like the Redding Benchrest seater, or the Forster "Ultra", the bullet hits the side on the die before it gets into the die to be seated... I had to cut a slot into the side of my .308 "Ultra", die inorder to keep the bullets from being knocked off of the case as they entered the die. It is nice to be able to remove the powder measure to empty the powder measure, but the quick change thing is mostly fluff!
Their powder measure is very good, and the contraption that actavates the measure is fantastic! (and it works on other progressives, and with RCBS measures!!)... but the steel that the measure is made of gets "brown" in an atmosphere that doesn't effect any other of 6 progressives machines.

The Dillon 650 is one of the top machines around... it is time consuming to switch shell holders, and even more time consuming if you have the auto casefeeder, but if you buy and load cases by the thousands, this puppy is THE ONE to have...

Everybody I know, thinks the Dillon dies are grap, only slightly better that the Hornady, that are SHIT!... I've thrown Dillon and Hornady dies in the garbage. If you get a Dillon or Hornady, get Redding, or Forster match dies if you are concerned with accuracy.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 11:30:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)

Hey guys, from time to time, I repost an bit of information about ballistic data tables that I developed for use while working as a sniper instructor for Army Special Forces. These data tables were developed over the years and are "shot proven", not theoretical math based models. Here are the particulars.

(Since the Emporium posts are deleted, this detail has been put back here in the archives. - Webmaster)

Hey guys, from time to time, I repost an bit of information about ballistic data tables that I
developed for use while working as a sniper instructor for Army Special Forces. These data
tables were developed over the years and are "shot proven", not theoretical math based
models. Here are the particulars.

These tables are hand calculated specialized data tables. The tables I have are for common
military calibers.

1. .50 BMG (using Mk211-MOD-0, M33 Ball, M8 API, M20 APIT and M903 SLAP ammo).
2. 338 Lapua (using 300 grain Sierra Matchking at 2850 fps) 3. .300 Magnum (loads for 220
grain Sierra MK at 2820 fps, 185 gr. Lapua @3250 fps, 190 gr. Sierra MK @ 3000 fps {the
military A-191 load}. 4. .308 Winchester (Civilian loads using 168 gr. Sierra MK at 2600,
2650, 2700, and 2750 fps, 168 gr. Berger VLD and LTB bullets at 2800 fps). 5. 7.62mm
NATO for M118 Special Ball, and Special Ball Long Range, and M852 Match (168 gr.
Sierra MK at 2600 fps) and M80 Ball (147 gr. bullet @ 2750 fps).

Individual caliber sets are available without buying the entire set. The entire set is a much
better deal at 100.00, (price reduced from 125.00) however each caliber set is 25.00. For
example, a set of M118, M118 Long Range and M80 Ball 7.62mm military and .308 tables
would be 50.00. The .50 caliber tables alone are 50.00 because there is much more data. If
you are interested specifically in the .50 tables, they have all 5 standard military rounds
"Greentip" Mark 211, MOD-0, M8 API, M33 Ball, M20 APIT, and M903 slap data.

These tables is highly refined and very accurate tables that give elevations in minutes of
angle, elevation settings per 100 meters, remaining velocities, spin drift, flight times, angle of
fall, danger space and wind deflection in inches, Mils, and Minutes of Angle. This data has
been proven with many different .50 caliber rifles and other sniper weapons systems in many
worldwide environments.

What makes these more accurate than any table generated by computer or on the market is
that a different and precise ballistic co-efficient is used every 100 meters. There are based on
live firings and the data corrected to standard atmospheric conditions. Therefore the times of
fight that are used in the windage formulas are more accurate. Computer models use an
average over a certain range. This contains many errors as velocities and data around the
trans-sonic flight range will be in gross error.

These tables ARE NOT REACTIVE as are other "data books" that are on the market. They
are designed so that the sniper can correct for all meteorological and environmental
conditions the sniper may shoot in. Furthermore, more data can be developed as requested.

The tables are sent with a 70 page instruction book that not only teaches the use of the
tactical tables but is a short course on exterior ballistics and precision zero techniques that
correctly tune these tables to the gun/ammunition system for advanced sniper applications.
The tables are printed on card stock (5 x 7") format.

They are inserted in a very strong and flexible vinyl page that is similar to a document
protector and are bound together with 5 ea. 1" rings. The cover is a BDU camouflage heavy
vinyl. These are the same as the USAF flight crew manifest checklist booklet. You can see the
book insert i am using at www.pdipueblo.com go to the vinyl products section. The cost of
this option is 15.00 per book set.

Please feel free to call me about these if interested (314) 439-8063. Money back honestly, if
not impressed and satisfied.

Email: Dmicha@swbell.net

Dean

Trigger50 <Dmicha@swbell.net>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 12:51:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.193.24.85)

PeanutKing,

The 30 refers to caliber, the "C" refers to coated (a desirable thing), and the 17,36,44 refers to actual rod length in inches. In addition get a good quality bore guide and pierce type jag.
Here are two most excellant choices for cleaining gear

www.brownells.com

www.sinclairintl.com

They usually have mass quantities of cleaning goodies in stock and are very reputable to deal with.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF @AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 13:17:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.41)

Ok guys I went shooting yesterday with a buddy of mine who has a Savage 110 tactical in .308. I was shooting my 300win sendero as always. anyhow we set up some 1/4 inch plate siloutes at 500 meters.
I always shoot thru these like butter using 180jhp. He barely Dented the steel With 168grn FMJs. Now I realize the .308 may be a good police sniping round,,but why on earth would anyone use it for long range Sniping purpouses?
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 13:53:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.186)

Morris:

I have two pairs of IOR binoculars, the 7x40 and the 10x50. Neither have the optional rangefider as I felt they added more clutter than they were worth for my application. I also own an 8x56mm IOR rifle scope.

This is world-class gear by most any standard. IOR builds them but the glass is actualy sourced from the former Zeiss Jenna facility in eastern Germany. They compare rather well to the Steiners and I have put them up side by side with high-end Steiner and other German and Austrian products. As the review found elsewhere on this site indicates, they are rather heavy as they are made in the old European tradition with steel bodies.

One source is:

http://www.eurooptics.com/

Another source is Valdada Enterprises of Steamboat Springs, CO. Look for their ads in the Gun LIst. They have them a bit cheaper than the above URL. Cheapest of all is to have Brownells special order them for you, but only if you stand for dealer or trade discounts with Brownells.

HTH!

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 14:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.192)

I'm looking to purchase a long-range bolt-action sniper rifle to match the two M1As that I have right now. I want to get .300 Winmag because of the increased range. My choice is either a Winchester or Remington. A salesman at a sporting goods store tried to sell me a Model 70 with light barrel and BOSS system (which seems to be an unsuitable combination, due to barrel shift from heat, as well as having a gizmo on the end that could break & also create a larger noise signature).

Anyway, my question -- what off-the-shelf Remington or Winchester would best fit the bill here? While I don't mind trading the stock (and would prefer to put an H-S M-24 type on the rifle), I don't want to have to get it rebarreled anytime soon. Accuracy of 3/4 MOA with handloads would be just fine.
JC <johnc@iglou.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 14:45:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.5.222.45)

JC...
The M-24 stock is only nmade for the Remingtom action, short or long.
The Remington Sendero is available in 300 Win, and is a drop-in into the M24 stock.

'lito

PAblito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 15:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.64)

Binos, I have the IOR's with the range finder in them. I wish they didn't have this feature because it gets to busy in there. The glass is as good as I have used. I do not think you can get a better pair for less money or for even double the money.

Deans Data Book: I used his book for awhile. I found the information very good. I wish the 308 stuff was in yards in addition to meters. I could never get the velocity of 2800fps out of my 300win with 220's so I wish he would come out with a set for the standard 2650fps load. The price is right for what he is giving you, based on all the work into and the small operation he runs. One thing I completely agree with is his system of comeups from a set zero. He lists total minutes from zero so in the heat of it all you have to do is dial. Very good Dean.

Dean's data books are part of a system that requires a calculator for the calculations. This I found fine for long range 1000plus. For the shots up to 1000 it took too much time so I just used the data given. That I believe is what he intended. Many have misunderstood and thought he preached to do all the calculations everytime. Now Dean teaches some things that some others do not find merit in, such as spin drift and many adjustments for enviornmental changes. Jury is still out on this. I have gone to: Range it, make angle adjustments, make altitude adjustments, make temp adjustments, make wind adjustments and fire. So far this is working for me, but I tend to only shoot to 1000 yards. That is all we have around here so until I get back to Jarretts place and really strecth out the 50cal I wont know for sure. I am told by others of the SOTIC that my way will take as far as the rifle will hold.

For the average guy, I do not believe that a data book is any better than the TRGT. I have taken mine and made entries of my actual come ups and wind corrections. Good to go.

300 Mag rifles: Right now I would go with either the Remington Sendero/PSS or Winchester SS Fluted. All three are great with both Remingtons having a flaw. The PSS has a very crappy detachable magazine but a great stock. The Sendero has a stock I do not like. Too flexable in the forend. The Winchester has a plastic bedding compound I would remove and replace with Marine Tex. Today I would probably go with the Winchester unless I was planning on having it worke don latter. Than it would be a Remington.

Pete, great to see you a member!
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 15:55:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.176)

Partison,
Granted the 308 will not hit steel as hard as the 300WM but it will still do a good job on flesh and bone out to most ranges we are able to hit accurately at. Plus you get to shoot it a lot longer and practice a lot with hit so you can hit out there at long range. Don't get me wronge, I love the 300WM and wore one out shooting it so much and they do have there place but out to 600 or 700 yards against a soft target the 308 will do the job.

Bill R,
I hate to tell this but you have spoke of the Ruuuu.. on many different occasions and I had the opportunity to set one up an sight it in for my new Son in Law and it was a M77 in a 300WM. I only cleaned it before taking it to the range and sighting it in with 180gr factory Noz Part. for elk hunting and it shot 3 shots into 2 to 1.5 groups and never hardly fouled. After 20 rounds it took 3 patches of sweets to clean out what copper there was and then after shooting back to 400 with it and cleaning it again the same thing only this time 2 patches!!! This from a new gun that was not broke in properly. I could tell when I cleaned it the first time it had a smooth barrel not bad for a factory barrel and a cheap rifle, it will make him a great hunting rifle.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 16:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Quick question...took my recently purchased, used REM700 BDL in .308 to the range the other day. I had with me some commercial ammo and a box of rounds I had loaded up custom for this gun...

I was trying out my new OAL guage, measured the OAL and subtracted .005..loaded up my 168 gr MKs with 42 gr of 4064, federal match primers and started my test string...yuck..I was shooting groups the size of a quarter with the factory ammo at 100 yds...the hand loads opened up to almost twice that...

I also noticed that closing the bolt involved some resistance with the hand loads...I ejected one after closing it in the breech and ONE side had a wide scratch on the bullet ogive, almost 30% of the total circumference of the bollet was scratched...this to me suggests some abnormality in the breech, is this a commonly encountered problem? Does this suggest some known symptom of a worn barrel?

Any hints on how to adjust my load to compensate...I'm planning on backing off another .01 to see if that improves my groups...I'm not dissatisfied with the accuracy, just stunned to find a rifle that seems to like short, commercial rounds? I'm also gonna give it a good going over with Sweets and some JB compound to remove any potential fowling that my normal cleaning isn't taking care of..
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 16:51:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Hello again all !
Just a few quick questions that I hope I amy get answers to. I have read all the prior input on cleaning solutions. So what is the best solutions to clean a new barrel for break in? I never did see clear cut answers given? Also, I am being sent overseas for and extended tour of 1 year and need to know a good solution to leave in my barrel,
chamber and exterior metal parts. I know break free work well on military equipment but not so sure I want to put on my exspensive toys. Any suggestions???
Thanks in advance,
Out Here
Pauly <sapper97@usit.net>
Everywhere, all, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 17:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.180.174)

Grasshopper managed to survive two weeks of sniper training at Storm Mountain, but it was a near thing. The class was the toughest experience I've ever had, especially for out-of-shape guys over 40 like me, and my hat goes off to those who do it for a living. The remnants of two hurricanes, one on each end of the training, didn't help much, either. The Stoner almost made it all the way through, but got "all ate up" (as Gooch would say) and broke an extractor just before the final UKD exam and I had to do a remedial shoot with a borrowed rifle. That's only fair: in the basic course my partner's Savage stripped the stock screws and he had to shoot his final with my Stoner. The SOB shot a perfect 110 and took home the Top Gun award.

It's tough now getting back to reality. After two weeks of total imersion, humping equipment through heat, cold, and rain, wearing cammo, stalking and shooting everyday, it's a real culture shock to be sitting on a cushy chair in an air-conditioned office and pushing buttons. I keep having dreams that there's one more mission I need to complete.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 18:03:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.139.95.15)

Haven't been able to get on this weekend, stinkin' computers! So hitting where I can (and I appologize for the time delay)

PeteR: congrats, always good to see someone moving up in the world.

John P. Burrell: Beretta makes a bad 9? HMMM? Please allow me to let you in on my experience! When I used to live at White Sands Missile Range, I purchased exactly 5 boxes of winchester 115 JHP's per year from Midway (my allowance). That's 5000 bullets per year, for 3 years straight. I load them to HOT specs, 1370 fps over my oehler triple screen, not that I want them that fast, but that's the most accurate load I could get. Only got better the hotter I went. Ran them ALL through that Beretta. Competed for 3 years with it. Still have it, still shoots better than me. The one before that has a Bar-Sto barrel in it, and you wouldn't beleive the number of rounds I ran through that thing. Anyway, yes, it's aluminum in the lower, no it isn't a danger to anyone (unless you're running black tip sub-gun ammo or a suppressor on it), or I would think I would know with well over 40,000 rounds through two of them, most all +P or +P+ depending on who you talk to. Disposable? Yeah, I guess we all are. After all, I assume I will die some day, and on that day, I assume my boy will still be shooting +P ammo out of that same Beretta. Just wanted to let you know, from someone who has done it.

B. Rogers: man, a 50 yard one shot hit??!! Man, YOU'RE the man! Done this before, but it took me 3 to get in the middle (cheating, had a friend "spotting" me). And you're telling it exactly as it is. Accuracy is EVERYTHING, and a hit with a MP-5 will DEFINATELY out do a miss with a AK any day, even if it is a 9mm! Anyway, when I read about that 50 yard hit, just had to say that I'm impressed. One day ask me about the 200 yard gong and a 6" python...

Jack Ouellette: I have the hornady unit, traded off an older one for the new lock&load system. I can highly suggest this one. The reason I didn't get the smaller Dillon is because I actually use all 5 stations, and you only get 4 with the Dillon. The bigger Dillon gives you the right amount of stations, but I couldn't say that I liked it $100 more than the Hornady. Mostly that comment is due to the terrific powder system that Pablito addressed. The hornady is a top notch unit, although you might want to read the next comment.

Pablito: I agree with everything you said so far on the Hornady/Dillon thing, except I have one thing to add. I use mine for large quantity pistol ammo and have NEVER had any problems. I like the L&L quick change deal, 'cause I do (these guys won't beleive this) load mucho 45 auto along with the mega 9mm. Quickly changes everything out, including the powder measure. Note here though, get the pistol chamber for the powder measure, I love it, much more accurate! The problems you noted with rifle rounds are all quite true, but I do my rifle rounds (except blasting 5.56) on the old RCBS rock chucker. I've never done a bona fide side by side test to see if the rock chucker actually gives me more accuracy, but I think it does, and if it doesn't, I can't tell. Gives me one less thing to blame a bad shot on ('cause it can't be me!).

Sorry for the long post, I'll shut up for another week now.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 18:12:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

New Review Posted On The Tactical Intervention Specialists Site

Mike "Undude" Miller has finished a review of the TRGT-LLP Databook. I have htmled his work, added some graphics and posted it to the Tactical Intervention Specialists Website.

Complete with illustrations and mikes opinion of the Databook as well as a link to the TRGT website, this piece is the first online look at this product that I have seen.

Check it out here:
http://www.tacticalintervention.com/trgtdatabookreview.html

Take care,
JT - Webmaster Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 18:55:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

okay, okay, okay how about 7 out of 8 shots on a silhouette pig at 100 yards with a stock NIB Ruuuu.... P-90DC w/Federal 230 hardball(thats the 45 right?). Did it once three witnesses thar too!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 19:00:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.67)

Bravo...
I agree with you... I use the Hornady Lock-n-load for .308 and .45 auto... and I have a separate powder measure for pistol. It is just that cutting a slot in the side of a 50-60 dollar seating die kinda' ruins my lunch. The machine is fast... loaded 1200 rounds of .308 on Sunday morning, before lunch, (goin' sheep hunting in WV next week). I just don't think the two minutes to change dies are worth the costs of the multiple bunchs of the locking adaptors for each calibre.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 19:25:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.94)

I have just obtained an ART-IV 3X9 scope with no op. manual.Any info would be helpful.I have this mounted on an FN/FAL and it shoots good groups,once I got the mount tight.I also need a top cover for a Belg. FN any ideas where to get one.
As all ways thanks JPD SGT.
Joe Heath <joeheath@worldnet.att.net>
Kansas City, Mo., USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 21:07:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.75.170.239)

Grasshopper,
What wisdom have you learned from two weeks of sniper hell?
Please share.
Thanks
Mfs1589 <pcirco@home.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 21:08:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.98.143.200)

YES-TRULY,

What words of wisdom do you bring down off the mountain of Storms Grasshoppa?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 21:17:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.73)

I am looking for aftermarket extended adjustment knobs for a Springfield Armory Gen. 1 Scope.
Mike Crago <bonescrago@fwi.com>
Huntington, IN, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 21:19:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.160.69)

"Grasshoppa, when you can snatch the sheep balls from my hand, you may leave the convent..."

- Master Goochisan

humble student <humblestudent@sheepdipped.at_storm_mountain>
in the temple, of the mountain, they call Storm - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 21:40:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.176.68.120)

Jack Ouelette:

I have to agree with Pablito's take on the progressive reloaders.
I have owned a Hornady Projector. I now have an LX650. It takes a little time to change shell holders. To go from small primers to large primers will take some time , as well. I bought two primer units and have one set up for small and one for large primers. This make things quicker. It is the best progressive reloader I've ever used.

Also, Pablito is correct re: the dies. Especially if you want consistency. I've no experience with the Forster dies, but do with Redding. They are very accurate.

I use the 650 for large volume reloading. I prefer a single stage press for accurate rifle cartridge loads. I use a Forster Co-ax press and it , in combo, with Redding dies works beautifully. This is what I use because it gives the best variable control that my measuring tools and ability will allow.

My 2 cents,

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 21:56:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Words of wisdom, Hmmmm.....

1. Drink your water.

2. If you're not ready to shoot, then be ready to move.

3. Camouflage is good, concealment is better.

4. Drink your water.

5. Don't trust other people's ammunition.

6. Think like your enemy, work like a team, or die by yourself.

7. Always check your dope before making The Shot.

Did I remember to say you should drink your water? Mineral suppliments would also be a good idea.

There's probably a few more I could come up with, I'll have to review my journal.
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 22:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.139.95.15)

Bravo; Lesson might be that bullet has to go somewhere. I took the full 5 seconds to draw and fire I assure you. JUst happened to find it in the X. I once seen a dude fire 5 Rounds at a 50 yards target on that same range. This time it was a painted metal man sillouete. He knew he hadn't hit the target. Last time he said "to hell with it!" and turned away throwing a one handed shot back over his shoulder without even looking at the target. Rangemaster hit the ceiling! It hit the target right between the eyes! That taught me that no matter how good you think you are somebody has but to just get lucky! I like luck but mine is usually all bad!
PeteR. 7 out of 8 is hard to explain as luck! Them pigs ain't that big at 100 unless it's the 500 yard rifle ones and they aint' THAT
big either for a handgun. But that reminds me of a
Nuther Story damn it!Number years ago I Went to a new rifle sillouette club that had only been shooting 6 months or so. They had finished shooting cause the time had been printed wrong. They graciously set up the 40 targets at ranges to 500 yards just for me. I went to work on them finishing the whole course in about 1/4 the normal time. No thought at all to the hot barrel on my .270 Remington Classic. Just went from range to range taking as little time as I could cause the gallery was waiting on me. Killed 15 targets out of 40.
The crowd applauded (what was left of them) There was no wind at all! 102 degrees out there. REAL Kind folks I thought...Was doing so bad I went to the sand bags after the last Rams just to see what was wrong with my gun! (still to stupid to realize the barrel was hottern hell).
Couldn't bring down a Ram at all even on the Sand bags. I apologized to the range master for shooting so poorly and thanked them for setting up the targets. "Why?" He asked, "You won the match! In fact that is a course record I think!"
Pat; Sounds like there's nothing wrong with that .300 ruuuuu..I had a .300 RUUUUUU>>>now that you mention it and it wasn't real bad either. I totally had forgotten about that rifle. Now I'll be up all night trying to remember who I sold it too or what happened to it. Hadn't thought about that one for years. YOu know that old 77 action always looked fine. Put a barrel and a stock on one and who knows what would have happened.
Listen to Lito on those loaders he's right on as usual guys! I must admit I have never used Redding dies though. You see there's a lot I've missed. I've been in the green Boxes most of the time Chucked in a Rock Chucker. My mind is too simple for a progressive loader I guess. I spend more time workin on em than I do a loadin with em!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, September 20, 1999 at 23:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bravo 762 Bless you and can I touch you for good luck? The Pistol failures I was refering to were in the 1989 -1992 time frame. Berreta may have worked the Bugs out by now for our guys on active service I sincerly hope so. Every thing I stated is a matter of record through the freedom of information act. In fact when this first broke a directive came down requiring Army Armorers to send Berretas with 1000 rounds through them to be sent to 3rd shop maintenance. However we had a singer 1911 in the arms room of the 307th eng bn that was old as the hills and still fired well. I've enjoyed using Glock 9mm in Stock IPSIC. But for a combat aplication the 45 is still the best caliber to put them down with. I messed up my last post about the Mp5/AK engagement the point was with 8 hits to the body this guy ran about 25 yds, but with a hit from the 45 his feet flew out from under him. If you extend your canteen belt you can put more pouches, canteens etc. And extend your suspenders it will be more comfortable, you won't be laying on Magazines, it won't hang up in the brush as much and things will be easier to reach as opposed to every thing stuck up i in your armpits. Thanks for the replys. hardgun
J Burrell <Hardgun@earthlink.net>
manor, tx, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 00:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.191.153.165)

Re;British L2A2 Ball
Ihave shot about 400 rounds of this ammo and have recommended it in an earlier post and still don't have a gripe with it but I saw the cases of it were marked "NOT FOR TROPICAL USE" this weekend.I don't know that this is an issue for many folks but here in the humid south it very well could be.This strikes me as another of those "OH we forgot to tell you that? Damn deals that just really hack me off.Also got some of the Chilean ball by mail order that looked like it had been used for ballast in one of Christopher Columbus' ships.I don't know just how you would have to store this to make it look so bad.
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 00:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.163)

WHO IS THE CUSTOM GUNSMITH????? I am trying to identify a gunsmith from an example of his work. I have a tactical rifle based on the Remington long action. The most distinctive feature of the rifle is a custom lug at the action/barrel juction. The lug is made of a 1/4" thick bronze bar stock and projects about an 1" into the stock. The lug is either sweated onto the barrel or more likely, a shoulder is cut into the barrel and the barrel inserted through the lug. The lug is contoured to match the diameter of the receiver. Who is the gunsmith who created this lug/action/rifle? Any assistance including ideas on who else I could refer this question to would be appreciated.
Bruce D Weidenhamer <AuctionAZ@AOL.com>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 02:40:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.211)

Pat your sure right about one thing,,went out again this morning with the same fellow,,and MY SHOULDER ABSOLUTLY THROBBED!!! didnt even notice it at all yesterday but today was real hard not to flinch. Another draw back is yesterday I managed to smash my trigger finger on the steel. Oh well thus goes stress training. I will say this though that savage tactical is a accurate gun. I dont know which was better the guy shooting it or the actual rifle.

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 03:02:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.134)

Does anyone have any experience with the durability/stability of the new Steyr synthetic stocks? Does anyone know if thier tactical rifles use the same stock materials as the "Scout"? Can you just take these things of mechanical beauty out and just beat them to hell and have them be as faithful as an ugly dog?

Or an ugly sheep, for that matter?

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 03:02:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.69)

Hello again all !
Just a few quick questions that I hope I amy get answers to. I have read all the prior input on cleaning solutions. So
what is the best solutions to clean a new barrel for break in? I never did see clear cut answers given? Also, I am
being sent overseas for and extended tour of 1 year and need to know a good solution to leave in my barrel,
chamber and exterior metal parts. I know break free work well on military equipment but not so sure I want to put on
my exspensive toys. Any suggestions???
Thanks in advance,
Out Here
Pauly <sapper97@usit.net>
evrywhere, all, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 03:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.147.195)

Gents,

a couple of points of order please.

1.
Instream graphics. No-no! Please. The Duty Roster gets big enough as it is without adding to the download time and size. Yes, it looks cool, but I have to put my webmaster cap on and think of the bandwidth. Please continue adding the links, but as links instead of instream please.

2.
Advertisements. Another No-no please. We do have the Emporium for that. I was lenient but it has been creeping up, combined with the use of instream pictures in cases. Please keep them where they belong, otherwise soon we'll have all the regulars place their ads here instead of on the Emporium.

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 10:49:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Horrahh you vandals, I´m back online, Thanks for the mails

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 12:22:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.172.6.32)

peteR,
Thanks for the assistance, but I checked out those sites..and still I'm lost...there is nothing in referance to .308 caliber..are my eyes deciving me?...Am I not seeing the obvious..or is there another way of refering to .308..another number?..something...?
Sorry guys...for all the bother.
PLEASE HELP ME!
rookie rookie rookie
Peanut <peanutking15@hotmail.com>
Barrigada, Guam, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 12:42:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.128.10.18)

And what of the people grasshopper. How were the other gurus on the mountain?

MFS1589 <PCIRCO@HOME.COM>
USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 14:04:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.98.143.200)

Peanutster,

Any of the "30" designated rods will fit a .308 or .30'06 caliber. Make sure you measure you rifle from the rear end of the receiver to muzzle and add and inch or so (forgot to write that yesterday-aduh) so the rod will do its job correctly. This would probably be either a a Dewey 30-C-36 or 30-C-44 rod.

Pierce type jag and Shooters Choice as solvent should serve you fine.

And hows Guam this time of the year may I ask?

Chao!
peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
"Top of the World" Ma!, By-gawd, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 16:36:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.32)

Peanut,
Don't forget your bore guide might ad an inch or two.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 21, 1999 at 19:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.191)

>
Mr. Rogers:
>>Thanks for the PSG-1 trigger group info. You're right about bolt stop magazine followers being so-so in reliability. I'd purchased one a dozen years ago but found the bolt would still slam home perhaps 50% of the time. The original was made from rough cast aluminum with a loose fit steel? nail head-style insert for the bolt impact area.
>>Still, 50% open is better than 100% closed--unless your life depends upon it.
FINIS

Alain <tiptoe.thruthe2lips@laposte.net>
FRANCE - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 02:22:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.178.1.101)

To all,

Freedom, if you have never loved anything enough to fight and die for, then you never have loved anything at all. I hope that I am not the only one who loves my country (USA) this much. To all my brothers out there Semper Fidelis. The Marine Corps is the last bastion of tradition and excellence that goes beyond active duty and well into the spirit of men (and women too)!
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 02:26:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.190.71)

ATTN: Jar..., uh, Marine Scout/Snipers or Quantico Armorers:

I recently noticed the listed weight on an M40A1/Unertl setup is over 14 lbs. This seems heavier than it should be since it has a synthetic stock and basically a varmit or #7 contour, as best I can tell. A similar "civillian" gun set up would only be around 9-12 lbs., unless I'm drastically wrong on the contour. Where is the extra weight on a 40 gun?

Thanks in advance!!!
David

David Kiser <kiser403@mailcity.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 02:43:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.203.13.63)

David,
I may be wrong but I believe the extra weight is in the barrel for one. M40's seem to have a thicker barrel than most sniper rifles. Two, "sniper fill" in the buttstock of the rifle. And three, the Unertl's themselves have a thick steel tube that weighs a little over 2 pounds by its self. Other things add up also such as the steel Winchester trigger guard and heavy duty sling swivels. Guess the Corps has to make things very rugged because the Marines are good at breaking their toys.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 05:00:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.211)

Hi all! Can anyone tell me the difference between a HK 94, a MP5 and a HK 53? Thanks.
Bill <bill@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 12:21:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.78.65.88)

Hi Praz!

Can you tell me about PKMS-7 on the SVD-98? Why a porro prism scope? Any advantages or features? A friend thinking of getting one to complement his newly acquired bolt action Baikal.

Also, anyone note that the Australian (Interfet) minimi's are all with optic sight? Wonder what and why, enquiring mind want to know.

see you,
Serri wading through the floods in the smiley city
Serri <Serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com>
city in the strom, BKK, Thailand - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 12:27:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.94.3.4)

A quick note to all.

I have temporarily lost the ability to work on my PC at home. It will be fixed over the weekend without any loss of data, but until then I will not be able to respond to any of my email that I downloaded at home, nor action anything I have there (link requests, photos for the photo gallery etc.), both in my personal account listed here and the webmaster account.

I also access both accounts here at work and can thus respond to some of it from here, but those downloaded at home will have to stay over till next week or so. Please do not send again, as I will have it - just please be patient if I am slow in responding.

Damn, last week my screen blew, this week this, four weeks ago this work PC. Must be because I'm not shooting enough!

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.coza>
RSA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 13:51:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

David,
TR pegged it. The fill in the issued McMillian stock is denser than the average McMillian stock, the Unertl scope is a steel tube instead of aluminum like most other scopes, the Unertl base is by far larger than a set of weaver mounts, the barrel contour is close to a heavy #7, not the normal #7 contour... it all adds up bit-by-bit.

Serri,
I thought that "minimi" was the real name of FN's 5.56 machine gun, known as the M249 SAW within the US Military... least that's what an officer told me.... ;-) Does "minimi" mean something is a language with which I'm not familiar?

Marius,
I kinda feel guilty about the pics; though I hadn't posted them often, and it's been awhile since I had, I feel responsible for starting it (I hadn't seen them before I tried it...)

News,
In Scott Co., VA, they're about to start a coyote bounty... sounds like a little extra cash in my pocket... I hope...

L8R,

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 13:53:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.93.155)

A few things:
Marius: I understand your instructions as to not posting any more products for sale on the DR. I will do as you ask. I am sorry if it caused any problems. We at Tacticalintervention have posted a few things that might have interested the regular readers of the DR in the past. We did not use it as a Flea Market. The only other company I have noticed use the DR is TRGT. Hugo has used it in the same manner I have. A few individuals have also posted info from time to time and I actually liked it. Truthfully my sling became known from the DR and that started a long time ago. Without the DR, I would still be making them for local guys only. So here is the problem with no products on the DR. What happens when the next guy comes about with a great idea. We will not see it because it can not be posted here. I understand that it has to be controlled but like guncontrol do we treat everyone as crimminals to stop a few who abuse the priviledge/right?

In my view guys come on here for advise on shooting, loading, products and schools. For whatever reason we have lost a great deal of knowledge in these areas over the past year. If we continue to police the site and stricktly control everything what we will be left with is "My Savage is better than your PSS, 45 versus 9mm and what bedding compound should I use" I have no problem with helping new guys, heck I love to, but why limit ourselves to the usual questions. I have made many friends on this site and from them came many more ideas. My equipment has been improved from suggestions and my slings are much better than before. All from contacts and discussion on the DR. Without it many things would still be needing improvement. Hugo recently put on a case for the Data Book. I sent off for one and am pleased. Very good product that I would not have seen without the DR. The product has made my job a little easier.

Now I have gone on long enough. I will do whatever the SC Staff wants in reelation to posting products on the DR, but I just wanted to put this out for you to think about.

M40 Rifle being heavy. It is so for several reasons. 1. Unertal scope is steel not aluminum. 2.Bbbl is almost a straight contour. 3. McMillan Stocks are solid fiberglass in action areas(much heavier than foam). The whole thing was designed to last in combat not be cheap. By the way the Marines are going to the M40A3 soon. It is similar with a McMillan A4 Stock

Now I am off in a few days to Storm Mountain, where two former DR Posters, Rod Ryan and Kent Gooch, teach excellent classes. Man does this place miss them!

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticaintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 15:07:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53)

WHAT THE UNDUDE SAID!!

I think there is a grey area between saying I've got 100 copies of a new book for 29.99 for sale, and talking about products, improving items we use, or talking about something new that needs feed back.

I'm not sure where we should draw the line, but as mike said, like gun control, we can go all the way to the wall, and ban it all. I wouldn't have gotten Undude's sling if it were just listed in the Emporium... and the TRGT Log wouldn't be around very much for the same reason... maybe we can find a middle ground, without needing a hard line.

I also have to agree with Undude about the level of topics... we have been driftion away fron "Home country" for guite a while. Last year, I said something about it, and was "Flacked" hard for bringing it up.

I'll talk loading, and pistol, etc... but I'd really like us to get back to "Sniper Country"... and I miss the contributions and input from many who still read the DR (I get e-mail from them) but won't post anymore.

So on what the Undude said... Me too, in Spades.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 15:44:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.125)

Mike & Pablito,
I agree with both of you guys, if someone has something that will help the sport out I think it deserves a look. I also feel we have drifted away from the main menu so to speak. Just my thoughts.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 16:20:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

The Minimi is what most of the European nations refer to the FN M249(US). In the US military, it is usually refered to as the SAW(squad automatic weapon). Other than that Minime was on Austin Powers I think.
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 16:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.73)

Guys,

I gonna dive write in an try this fancy high follutin politic stuff and make a personal comment:

I personally enjoy seeing new products (and testing them even more!).
But the jist I get,(I may be {probably am} wrong) is not to load up the DR with things that could be better placed elsewhere....

JT and Un-Dude gave us all a real shot in the arm with his ability to Hyperlink to a page and new product. Thats definately a Tango-India-Tango-Sierra idea and should be retained. And I don't make that particular comment about everything.

I gonna carry on as usual, and hope that you all of you will do the same. I would enjoy seeing some of the "Oldtimers" posting again those singed wings should have feathers again. MINE DO :-)

At least you didn't start collectively start singing the praises of Ruu, Ruuug, Ruuu-gg......

You can e-mail any or all of us with your comments, to any of the staffers, any time

Me, I just make a feeble attempt at writing, and enjoying the Roaster oops Roster.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 17:21:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.182)

Marius: I have always defended the right of a person to do with what he owns, what he wants. If you want to run a new Hummer off a cliff, have fun. So, changes to this site I really have no opinion on.

But, it seems far fetched to refer to what has been on this site as advertisements. References to things other than maybe where you can get a deal on ammo, or hyping the Carlos shoot [both great info], are only to equipment made by shooters to help shooters. Take that info away, and you give one less reason to visit the site, imho.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 17:23:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

One of the offending pics was mine. I wasn't sure what the correct text was for putting a link up was so I tryed putting up the pic. Even that was wrong, sucks that someone trying to lend a helping hand wound up being an accesory to the offense. He did however send a message to be describing the proper text to use inorder to post a link. Won't happen again now that I know how to behave.

Now, can't we get back to talking about kilts, sheep, and guns?
Bdouglas <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Ca, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 17:57:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.217.60)

Well as long as were talking about products here on the Roster, I'll add my $.02 worth.I don't mind about discussing the advantages and disadvantages of shooting related gear.

I think the line has to be drawn where there is a situation that the person doing all the commentary has a personal finacial gain by endorsing their product here on the Roster.

Sure, it's probably not out of line to make an annoucement that, "ACME Co. is pleased to announce the addition of Widget A to our product line.Please, drop by and visit our site at www.yadayadayada.com,".

However, when it gets into a situation where individuals prepetuate a topic to death just to gain a little more product exposure, then IMHO that's when it begins to draw the line.

Now, I'm not blaming or naming anyone here.I think we all know who is doing this and who isn't.It's not like it's happening every day or anything, but I see Marius's point though.

Otherwise, how is this situation any different from all the SPAM that comes through our e-mail ? I really don't want to sift through all kinds of pseudo-advertisements just to read posts from people who are here for the sharing of information.

If you want your products to be discussed here, get someone to do a review on it for posting.That will give you the attention you are looking for.

Perhaps it might be time to explore the possibility of opening different chat rooms for different interests ? Maybe one for handloading for example.

As for people not posting here anymore? C'est la vie, mes amis ! People's interests change, they become disinterested, whatever the reason.Shit happens !

I've been on this site for over 2 1/2 years now, and I've seen a lot of good people come and go over that time.It's to the point now where there's only a half dozen or so names that I see post here on a regular basis that I remember from the first time I logged onto Sniper Country.

It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done.If you leave this site because you're not happy here; then WE all lose (shit disturbers and anti-gunners excluded of course!).

Anyway, perhaps a little change around here won't be so bad? Just food for thought.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 18:35:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.176.68.141)

Many shooters are familiar with the CZ 9mm auto pistols. One of the Canadian CZ importers - Dlask Arms Corp. in the Vancouver area of BC - now also imports a CZ sniper rifle in .308 Win. You can check it out on: www.media-north.com/dlask

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
BC, Canada - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 19:24:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

Well I suppose I should toss in my 2 cents worth on this advertisement thing.

First, let me say that I understand where Marius et al are coming from. The download time on the Roster can get very annoying when there are *large* inline pictures in it. This is part of the reason that I used thumbnail sized stuff when I posted. Those pictures will cease as well per his new rule.

Having said that, I agree with the majority here that learning of new products and new websites even new reviews and whatever else is a big draw for the DR, at least it was for me before I got started in on making sites for this community. I enjoy the pointers to other places be they 'competing' sites or just new product pages.

Now for the shocker: It appears Marius does too.

Marius and I exchanged email in the last 24 hour where I asked him for specifics on where he draws the line. Marius, you are welcome to post the second to last email we exchanged if you desire. I think it spells out the limits quite well and though I'd like to use thumbnails occasionally, I personally think its reasonable.

The bottom line from the mail exchange was that DR posters will still be allowed to post announcements of new products, announcements of new sites, and pointers to other places to get information etc. His big concern seemed to be inline images and ads for the sake of ads for already well known products not new information dissemination.

This was heartening to me as I think that both this community and the sites in question bennefit from a symbiotic relationship when we all come together here.

In fact in the next couple of weeks, you'll get to see a new announcement of yet another sniper-related site that I am putting together. All with the blessings of Marius On High (tm). :-)

PeteR, thanks for the nice words about how I taught peopel to do off-site links here. I am honored to be considered T**S... Uh I think. As long as you don't think that of me and also expect me to wear a lacey kilt I think we can still be friendly.

Speaking wholly and completely for myself,
JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 20:25:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Jeff Babineau, and other guys from Canadia...

After hearing how Andy Webber, Rod, and "The Gooch" did this summer... I'm thinking of going up next summer and shooting the "F" class... It'll give them one more guy to beat!

Do you'z guys know anything about it, when it is, rules and info, do I need gun permits to get into Canadia, Yadda, Yadda?

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 21:36:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.29)

Aussie Minimi(M249),

The optic's are the same as the standard Steyr AUG (Aussie designation is the F88, for their Aug's), so the magnification is 1.5.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 22:24:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.229)

Jeff B. I am not sure who the offenders you speak of are, but the three guys that got emails were Trigger, Hugo and I. I have not seen any of use do anything out of line in telling about products. Your opinion may be different and that is fine. I do not agree with why some have left the site. I know why and do not want to see anymore go so I will not bury my head in the sand. This is a great site but like any venture mistakes are made. I am just speaking up when I see something I think is a mistake. I like the guys that run the site but that does not mean I will agree with everything that they say or do. I also agree with Pablito in that we need to find out what it takes to compete in Canada. Even after Rod, Gooch, Bill Wlylde and a few other US Citizens, a few more prizes should be left for us. LOL

Marius has since clarified the original request and all seems ok with me.

I come on this site for the friends and not to just push my products. The guys here are the reason I have products. I stioll make the stuff in my spare time because guys wanted them. When guys do not want them I will stop making them. I hardly depend on this for making any money. Not even recovered what it cost me for half the expenses yet. Anyone that thinks any of the guys posting on here are making money has another thing coming. Non of the guys who have posted here are. Now if a big company came on here and listed the specials of the day that would be different. The easy thing I guess would be to sell my sling to the highest bidder and just teach folks to shoot. Food for thought.

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 22:39:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.34)

Re: Optical sights on LMGs

We use them on our C9 (FN MINIMI/M249, Etc), same unit as on our C7 (M16); the Elcan combat site, called C-79 Optical sight. I usually take the unit off when live-firing, it's OK for picking out targets initially, but once the link starts flying, I just wind up looking over the scope and following the tracer. The CF (Canadian Forces) have issued a notice on the "dangers of tunnel vision with the C79/C9 combination". Seems somebody got shot during training. That should tell you something.
Tony M <tmacke@ibm.net>
BC, Canada - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 22:40:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.25.150.105)

'lito: I believe the matches you are refering to are (2) distinct separate matches that are held at the same location.If I am correct The Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships (CFSAC) are held separately from the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) matches.

The sniper competition Andy,Rod,Gooch,and Wendy participated in were the CFSAC matches not the DCRA.

It is my understanding that "F Class" is part of the DCRA target rifle matches.

As far as the gun thing in Canada, it is my impression that you do need a permit to bring any weapons into Canada.Perhaps Gooch can fill you in a little better on this.

Anyway, I have a 1-800 number kicking around here for The Canadian Firearms Center.When I get home from work tonight I'll post it here for you.They should be able to answer any and all questions/concerns that you may have.

By the way, check out www.dcra.com for more info concerning the matches.

I've been kind of toying around with the idea of going up there myself next year.Andy,Wendy,and several others went from our local club this year.They all spoke of what a good time they had.Both on and off the range.If I'm not mistaken, I think I remember saying that the weather was lousey this year; with a lot of rain.

I'll get back to you here shortly...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., CANADA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 22:41:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.176.68.119)

Steyr guys....
....there's no use hiding. I know you're out there. Do any of you have experience with the rifles at this url?
http://www.gsifirearms.com/tactical/st-sbs-main.html

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 22:52:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.100)

S.C. is like a box of Chocolates. Never know what your going to get! Thus is it's tremendous appeal accented by it's variety. I've learned one thing in the business of Communications. IF it works it's best not to mess with it. I know the instream pix are a pain as far as bandwidth but.... A picture is worth a thousand text bytes at times.
I would have love to have seen that Sling a long time ago but it does take some time to load if your in Tim Buck Too's garage with a 286 processor on your server. Pix can be sent E-mail attachment. Just announce you have pix and send them or link them that way would be my solution.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 23:32:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Gentlemen, it is with deep regret that now have a 99% chance of missing the match. My daughter is in school at East Carolina in Greenville, NC which most of you know is flooded. They think the kids will be able to come back to school next week, but they don't know when. You can take it from there.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 23:34:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.46)

I do alot more reading on this site then I do posting-I find I learn more that way! I'm a rookie trying to learn the fine art of long range shooting. I ask the webmasters of this site to reconsider their decission on advertising new products on this site. I would have never heard of Mike's new sling design had it not been mentioned here. I agree with having guidelines about advertising but I don't see how mentioning new products and how to contact companies/inventers who make them hurts anything. Isn't one of the missions of this fine site to put out information on the art of long range shooting(sniping for the professionals). I've e-mailed Mike and several others here on info about guns and gear. I'm sure they have heard the same questions I ask hundreds of times before, but newbies/rookies like me come to this site to obtain info. Hell guys, I'm 40 years old and was starting to get a little stale on shooting till I hapened on long range stuff. I respectfully request SC keep us rookies/newbies pumped up about this art of long range shooting by letting new ideas and or products be introduced on this site. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion-Pete
Pete <vnp514@televar.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 22, 1999 at 23:35:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.26.235.76)

'lito: the phone # to the Canadian Firearms Center is1-800-731-4000. They should be able to send you the proper application forms (if necessary) for you to bring your rifles into Canada.

If you want to, check out their web site at: www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca

Hope this helps ...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 00:05:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.57.60)

Anyone out there ever had any dealings with a company in Arizona called Special Weapons? The owner states that he can produce a PSG1 version of his SW3 (HK91 clone) that will hold MOA at 600 yards for 3,500 to $4,000 depending on extras. He also builds a HK94 clone called the SW5.
John Hunt <john_762@hotmail.com>
McKinney, Tx, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 00:22:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.86)

Hello ladies!!

Just checking in, not a lot of news breakin' on my end.

I am building a rifle, call it 'beanfield', hell it'll shoot in sunflower too, I suppose. 300 Win Mag, off a 721 action, 24 inch sporter weight cut rifled barrel, saddled on an H-S sporter stock (
which I will Bisonite the bejesus out of)I suppose I'll true the face of the receiver and lap the bolt lugs, but she'll still be a classic 721. I don't think we've built a rifle from a 721, not that I can remember anyway, so that is what is givin me a woody nowadays.

PeteR:

You e-mailed me on h-1000 a couple weeks ago, hell, I don't think we have used that, as far as I can remember anyway. Oh, and since you're such a big Ruugaaaaah fanatic (heheh) I'll give all these Ruahgahuamaniacs a thought to digest.

R@#$&*@ rifle users:

It is a fact that Ruger's shoot better in the dark. Better than in the light of day anyway. So when ya zero, zero in zero light, it just doesn't get any better.

mrbullet:

I have a doe tag, East River, better than nothin' eh?? I will be in your vicinity around the opener for those wiley pheasants, vacationing in sunny ESD for about 2 weeks, so I may be lookin' ya up if you have any spare time anyway. Hell, shootin' birds gets boring after a while, especially when ya limit out by 12:30 PM everyday, heheh. I'll try to get a hold of ya beforehand, may have to tip a few over a discussion of a sneak suit.

all:

I need some feedback on these Hornady .308 168gr match moly's, whatdya think of 'em ladies?? I threw 8 of em in a 2" group at 200 yds with a BLR(dad's gun), went to Rem core lokt 150 gr and nada, not even close. (Pat, I shot all day in a 35mph crosswind, 2 weeks ago, just couldn't get anything to print, went through 60+ rds, the last 8 shots were in the late evening when the wind quit) I'd have to check the bore/groove dimensions, but I'd say that barrel likes heavy bullets. Just hated the 150's at 2-300 yds.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 01:13:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.117.95)

Marius,thanks for taking the heat to keep the Roster free of flagrant advertising.The distinction between a new product announcement and some guy pimping his product repetetively and redundantly is clear and obvious.Mikes slings and other products are DISCUSSED here quite frequently as are the products of other manufacturers(Remington,Leupold,Hogdon,etc)but they are not advertised in the truest sense of the word.As for download times the longer it takes to load the more goodies there are inside and the more I like it.If it took 20 minutes to load the Roster I would still read it every day.Thanks for a great site and the opportunity to be the over-opinionated ass that my wife commonly accuses me of.
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 01:34:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.183)

Additionally am I the only guy here that takes exception to selling DATA that was compiled while an employee of the US Government at our expense?I know that you are thinking how is this different than Gooch or Rod or anyone else using their training to gain profit but the difference the way I see it is one is printed material and the other is an intangible.When you are GIVEN knowlege it is yours to do with what you please.When you GATHER data that data belongs to your employer and you have no right to it.If you work for General Motors and in the course of your employment you design a new engine or gather data on an old one is this data or design yours?Hell no it isn't.Would you be sued/prosecuted?Hell yes.
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol .com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 02:00:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.183)

Seems like selling Data that was obtained through research with Taxpayer money isn't a problem anymore Bruce! Some people seem to get by with it quite easily. Call Janet for a ruling on the matter! IF the call is answered in Chinese might as well hang up, It's too late!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 02:37:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Mike M: I didn't want to suggest anyone was some type of offender or anything.Heck, I don't mind what's been going on at all.I was just trying to make a point that "the line drawn in the sand," should be for those individual(s) whose only reason for posting here is to promote some type of product.That's all.No biggie deal.

You know, you are right when you say that everyone can have their own opinion.That's the great thing when you have a mind of your own !

As for making money? Hell man, if you're going to all this trouble to lose money, then I got some real nice ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you (hey, just kiddin' there big fella).

I wish you do make a good return on your hard earned efforts.Anything else would be a complete shame.Hey man, "profit" ain't a dirty word to me.

I really don't know you except from your posts here.You seem like a very genuine and helpful person.If what you said was comming out of someone elses mouth I'd be tempted to say, "You can't shit a shitter," as the saying goes.

If you want to know how to compete in Canadian rifle shooting I'll be releasing a 10 volume set of hard cover books that will go over the entire topic.I'll tell you what, I'll sell it to you today for just $350 and I'll throw in genuine Saskatchewan seal skin drag bag just because you're a nice guy.Act now! while supplies last!

Now onto more serious matters.The real secret to winning a Canadian competition is the ability to hold your liquor better than the rest of your competitors the night before the shoot.I know, it's hard to believe but it's true.Just ask Rod and Gooch.

Now that I've let the cat out of the bag I'm sure as hell certain that I'm gonna get tons of hate mail over this.I just hope you and 'lito appreciate the fact that I've just revealed a national secret and I've probably just endangered Canadian National Security by telling you this.

Geez, the stuff I won't do for you guys...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 03:25:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.47)

Outstanding Marius, Simply Outstanding !! I applaud you on the decision and FWIW...stick to your guns !! Furthermore, I agree with Bruce on the blatant commercialism... I emailed 3 people on/from this site....2 gave me the best info they had and the last tried to SELL me his goods!! Crap !! all I wanted was THREE Lousy comeup settings...anyway, Thanks PeteR and Rick B...the other guy, can you say "PFffffftttt !!!"
As for Mike "UnDuDe"type....I sorta enjoyed finally seeing your stuff and I can appreciate the effort of what you're doing and will someday soon buy one of those "superdooper" slings from you or from SC, or wherever.
Last but not least... I too have a side line job and it has some impact on part of what goes on here..I'm a DOD/DMA trained cartographer/terrain analyst who also carries an imagery interpretation MOS from way back. Add to that I have a degree (BA) in Geography and do consulting work...big deal...ANYONE who asks me from here about stuff I might know gets it NO CHARGE...thats what this place is for. At least to me. Thanks for letting me vent some steam !!
One former "Green Grunt" that was taught to assist and NOT take advantage..unless of course its virgins or... younger sisters ..or....MArines ...or.....heh heh heh
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
War Eagle, Alabama, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 04:08:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.132.245)

I noticed some time ago that someone from SC had forwarded Death threats on polititions via E-mail to the SS. Wich brings up something very important. I do not have any Idea what the threats were and will not try to touch on them, but there is something out there for you all to consider that is simular.

Last year a man from Bozeman MT. sent a letter to the local paper saying that president Klinton should be tried for treason over the China Money contributions. He was Promptly arrest by the SS and tried for threatening the presidents life or some such garbage.

Another man called into the Micheal Raygun talk show and said that if Klinton is tried for treason and found guilty, He should be shot, the punishment for treason, Micheal promptly notified the SS as well saying the same garbage the man had threatand to kill the president.

Now maybe its me, but A

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 04:51:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.96.42.139)

@#@! computers.
Ok I will finish,,anyhow maybe its me but am I missing something? Is there a first amendment or isnt there? my guess about as much as the second amendment. If you cannot voice your disgust and speak out against your government,,what good are eather or them?

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 04:56:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.96.42.139)

I see my note about what's on and what's not has raised a lot of discussions and some hackles. It was not intended negatively, and I think Mike and JT, ( and some other, I've not read all responses fully as my time is limited here at work) have actually summed it up very well.

So, rather than me type up all the stuff here again and forget some, I'll do as JT suggested and just cut and paste our email exchange here. His comments are prefixed by "}" and mine not.

=============

First of all, not to worry, no need to apologise. If one
doesn't try
new things one will never know, will one? I did not have
a problem when
you announced Mike's site on the Duty Roster. Actually I
thought it was
the correct thing to do, since he has been involved with
SC so much and,
I *hope*, has to thank the site for at least a little bit
of his
success.

Now, rather than scroll down to read and back up to
answer I'm going to
insert my comments in amongst yours, so read further.

JT wrote:
}
} Greetings Marius,
}
} First, off since I am the culprit that did much of the
posting, I apologize
} for starting a trend that has turned out to be a bit
unwelcome. :-(
}
} Having said that I need a little clarification.
}
} You said not to post 'ads', but noted that the way that
I mentioned the
} TRGT databook review was okay. You also mentioned that
announcing Mike's
} site was acceptable. I am a little confused as to me
anything that gets
} people to give you more pageviews is what I think of as
an 'ad' in this
} business. I need to find out your definition of ads.
}

I define an add as "I am selling...". Those entries that
appear in the
Emporium are ads - most of them anyway. Trigger50's
post, describing
his data book and why it is such a good buy, is an ad.
TRGTs entry,
with the graphic, detailing the new cover for their data
book is an ad.
I do not consider posts that say "we now have additional
information
that might be of interest to you" as an ad.

} What I am trying to get a handle on is just what *IS*
acceptable insofar as
} announcing things of interest on the site under the
Duty Roster and what is
} not.
}
} Here is what I am thinking about when I write this:
Currently Mike is
} developing a couple new products and putting up new
reviews.
}

Good - waiting to see them.

} When a brand new product comes out is it okay to
mention it on the roster
} at all?

Yes - by all means. As long as it is mention. If you
want to post a
detailed post, describing the product in full, maybe
including instream
photos, that should go to the Emporium.

[START NOTE: In later discussions went as follow:

} So instream is okay on the Emporium? Okay thats good
to know.
} Also I am heartened to learn that youre not clamping
down all mention of
} new products. I'll be brief in new descriptions.

Yes, on the Emporium it is almost "anything goes", as
long it is
firearms related and not illegal. It might be a good
idea to include an
indicator in the subject if you're posting graphics
links, but that is
not mandatory.

Clamping down on mentioning new products? How will we
know about them
if they're not mentioned?

END NOTE]

} If yes is actually linking to it prohibited? Is that
what constitutes
} making it an 'ad'?
}

No and no. As long as the link is a link to the
site/page, and not an
instream photo. Of course this will have to be on feel
as well. If we
get more and more of "I now also sell/make ..." from all
posters, making
up a significant percentage of posts, we'll have to look
at it again.

} Is it okay to say "we just opened a new section dealing
with XXX product"?
}

Yes.

} Is it okay to mention that a new product review has
been posted?
}

Yes - by all means. That I see as conveying information,
not
advertising.

} I also need to ask what the limitations are on
announcing new sites that
} have direct relation to the sniper community. I am
presently working on a
} site for Jerry Rice (Nor Cal Perecision) who is a
wonderful riflesmith and
} a real decent chap. He makes custom Remington 700
based tactical rifles.
} (You just posted a review of one.) He has never had a
web presence before.
}
} My question is - when a new site is opened is it okay
to mention that they
} now exist or does that fall under the prohibited ads
rule?
}

By all means announce it, and please tell me as well.
Then I can add
him to our links, and actually link him into the article
as well. I now
very seldom have the opportunity to surf to look for new
sites, articles
of interest and such. Most of the links I get to add are
either sent to
me direct as "please link to my site at xxx", or come as
part of a
message, or as entries to the Duty Roster. So, if they
are not
announced I will not know about them either.

} Finally, from time to time I have been known to post
links to other places
} where people could find products they are asking about.
Is that considered
} an ad?
}

No - it is not. Same as above.

} I guess I just need to have some specific parameters
and limitations
} codified. I'll not break your rules willingly, I just
need to know where
} you draw the line.

Which was why I left it, hoping that, if somebody did
copy you, they'd
do it all the way, and not those big images. In the past
pictures have
also been posted, for example one time three pics about
sling
positions. I left them as well.

}
} As far as inline images, yea - I was always careful to
make tiny ones and
} use them. The moment I saw that Big ol picture of the
rifle on some guys
} floor I knew a rule like this would be coming down.
}

As you say. Unfortunately, allow something and someone
is invariably
going to "abuse" it, whether intentionally or not.

} Thanks for the time, and thanks for a site where I have
learned quite a lot.
}

I can assure you, you could not have learned more than I
have. I just
happen to be the nerd behind the keyboard, that is all.
:-)

Take care, and keep up the good work.

} JT
}

==================

And a last comment I made to JT this morning in replying to him:

---------
I try and make the Duty Roster, and the whole of SC, a
fun place,
without too many rules and regulations. I want people to
enjoy being
there, not worry about which rules they're going to break
when doing
something.
---------

I hope this clarifies the issue, and get the message across that I do not want to limit discussions. If I do that, where will Sniper Country be? Nowhere.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 09:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

I just took a bit more time in reading all the responses to my "No-no" post. I think my post (discussions with JT) of a little while ago sums up what I REALLY meant very well.

As usual, "let me just quickly do this" has not been the best way. Like the rhetorical question goes: "Why is never never time to do something properly the first time, but always enough time to come back later to fix it up?"

I apologise for any inconvenience and heartburn this note might have caused, but let me assure you that it was meant with the best of intentions.

Like Mike says, we make mistakes. If we don't (or *I* in this case, as I take full responsibility, not having consulted with the others on this before posting that note) make mistakes we'll be perfect, and I am very far from that. A quote I have written down somewhere says something like: "People who don't make mistakes don't make much else either". Hopefully I make less mistakes than I make good, and hopefully the mistakes I do make have far less impact than does the good things I do.

---

Now onto other related things. Mention has been made as to old regulars not really posting here any more. This is a worry to us as well as, like JeffB(?) said, when anyone does not post here anymore it is a loss to us all. Some that has left I basically know why, others I don't, as one just sees their names not appearing any more.

I just make a call here and now to anyone. If you are unhappy about something, please don't just take off and never come back, or maybe read but not post. Please contact me, or one of the other members, first with the reasons. Let us see whether it is something we can do something about. Some things we will be able to address, some not.

If it is the way I comb my hair - tough shit. If it is the way I address some isses, like the above for example, let us talk about it. If it is about the way some people discourse on the Duty Roster, let us talk about it. That sort of thing is a bit more difficult to handle, as this is NOT a moderated forum, just slightly sometimes :-), but if we discuss it we can maybe come up with some sort of solution, or at least a compromise.

Please just don't come with an all-out attack, as you'll not get defence, but a counter-attack. Just make it a note in reasonable tones. And remember I'm open to critisism, as long as we can achieve something by discussing it.

Now let us hope that this time I expressed myself properly and clearly.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 11:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Marius: Pictures, quick clips, etc.

Marius - some of the roster readers may want to post a link to a picture, article, etc - BUT not have a place to make that picture link accessible. Weellll, we can make a special repository for roster reader uploads - aside from the SniperCountry internals - where they can upload their quick pictures, etc - then place a link to that from the duty roster.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 11:17:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Ken,

EXCELLENT idea. Now if you can only tell me how that is done? How will I pick up the pics off their PC and store on your server? We'll have to talk on the scripts behind that. If you don't mind the space I don't mind putting it up there.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.com>
RSA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 11:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

TR, Chris, Tony : Thanks for clearing up the optic on the Aussie minimi LMG for me. Tomorrow the RDF-RTA will take off to Baukau, bordering West Timor. Apparently the main role will be a buffer Interfet force between the west Tomor Indon and Dili.

Ok, let's try Intel 101. Quickly answer what of each letter in SALUTE?

Just for a change,

Serri in the rain, rain and rain BKK but, I love it.
Serri <Serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com>
8^), soaking wet, Thailand - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 13:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.94.3.4)

Just a guess from a rusty memory...
S= Size
A= activity
L= location
U= uniform
T= Time
E= equipment

Am I close enough ?? Haven't thought of that acronym in quite some time!
Out Here
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
War Eagle !! , Alabama, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 13:49:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.135.16)

Serri, The slippery WET sniper,

STAY SAFE!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 14:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.173)

The word is that permits for entering Canada with firearms will not be necessary until 2001. There is a possibility that implementation of the new law will not take place then.

A quick visit to www.dcra.ca should offer any information for the 2K matches.

The sniper matches take place during CFSAC and the "F" Class matches during CFRC. These matches take place about two weeks apart. Even though Keith Cunningham gave me a rundown on the sniper matches, my failing memory won't allow the time and number of shots involved. During the CFRC you can shoot sniper type conditions on fullbore targets until you are ready to drop. This starts with the Canadian Long Range Challenge (80 shots + sighters @900M over two days). This match pays real $ (well, at least Canadian $). The grand agg. lasts six more days, with team matches thrown in at times. A special .223 match takes place every evening that includes "F" Class conditions and refers to ANY .224 centerfire for "F" class. As an example, J.J. Conway of San Antonio, TX used a .224 Vais. Check the website and
see how this energetic 75 year old wonder got along!

"F" Class allows any front rest (bipod, pedestal, or sandbag), sand bag rear, and any caliber/cartridge combination that will remain within the range template. In use will be anything from a .223 to an 8MM of some type (check DCRA site for caliber/bullet/velocity rules).

Accomodations are $6.00 per day and there is no competitor marking during CFRC. A very leisure week, unless shooting all the side matches, and a place second to none in learning to cope with long range conditions.

This year the conditions were quite mild, and a real trigger pulling contest (most of the time). It AIN'T always that way!

You don't need a "big boomer" to win either. The first three places in "F" Class this year were 22-250 (80 grain), 6BR (105 grain), and .223 Rem. (80 grain). The CLRC being won by a 6.5X.308AP (Ackley-Poulin - 140 Berger).

If contemplating TR (target rifle) or TR-O (target rifle - optical), Connaught is also one of the finest places in the world to compete with the .223 or .308. Those of us involved in "F" Class are allowed to shoot alongside, as long as we offer no disturbance to the TR or TR-O competitor. Also, for those inclined, black powder cartridge (long range) and vintage military matches are offered. Something for nearly everyone.

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Cool - SE, ILLINOIS, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 14:40:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.132.114.100)

Regarding Bruce E's Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 02:00:01

Theres is a bit of a difference between selling data gathered as a Govmt employee and data from a private corporation. Most (but not all) of the info that could be gathered as employee of the govmt would probably have gone into files and buried in "dead" storage. Why not put it to use? Most info is available under the freedom of information act anyway, and if it isnt available its classified material. Anyone who tries to commercialize this kind of info has more to worry about than violating simple information rights.

Many people use military FM's, TM's, govt documents or excerpts from these to train or teach others, sometimes for profit. As long as its not classified - so what?? I say let these people profit from there actions. They usually have to take the raw info and work with it, filter it and make it fit their needs. They should profit from the work that they have put into this.

There is a very big difference between General Motors and the State or Federal Govt and your responsibilities as an employee of one or the other.
Yes, GM can sue you for theft of sensitve information, and you as well can sue them for breach of contract or various other things that may happen. Most Federal Employees have very little legal recourse when it comes to the Govt.

Just my opinion...
ColinC

ColinC <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 16:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.18.61)

Guys! I know I said I would shut up for the week, but I have a good question or three. No, really.

Recently someone I shoot with told me that I could get more accuracy from the old gas-gun (Springfield Armory M1A national match) by running Lapua 168 BTHP's instead of the Sierras that I've been getting for years. Says the hollow point is better formed, more consistent. Any thoughts? My rifle likes the Sierras SLIGHTLY better than the Hornady, MUCH better than the Speer. Never tried Lapua though.

I noticed someone shooting a 7-08 and started talking to him. He said that he chose it over the 308 because you get a better BC for the same weight (approx). He shot the 162BTHP versus my 168's. I can see (since the case is the same) that the velocities shouldn't be too much different for the same chamber pressure. If this is the case, do you guys choose the 308 for the capability of running heavier bullets or what? I just shoot service rifle matches, so there was no question which caliber I would use.

I notice a whole bunch of youse guys love that VARGET powder. If you think that I could use it (the pressure curve is correct for a M1A) I will get a can and try it. Am I the only guy that likes VihtaVourhi? And along the same lines, I was told to never use bench rest primers, as the M1A has a floating firing pin and there was danger of a slam fire. Been using regular Winchester large rifles. The question to you experts now becomes: was I given bad advice and I can use the BR primers, and if I do will I see any benefit?

Marius: Wouldn't touch this issue with someone elses finger. You're doing a fine job. Just please don't pass a rule against people asking for help on stupid questions, or I will be forced outta here! :-O

Pablito: looked over that stuff you sent, now I wish I was headed out there myself. Need an observer for next year? Looks like it would be worth the trip and then some! Good luck with the sheep......

And to the rest of youse guys that have helped me out, I SURE DO appreciate it. It's great to be able to ask questions of people that actually "been there, done that". Sure beats re-inventing the wheel with all the associated mistakes! Please know that you are appreciated!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 17:43:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)

Bravo...
Varget, AA2520, IMR 4064, and 4895 are ideal powders for the M1A/M21/M25 series of rifles, with bullets between 155, and 175 grains.

These rifles need 12,000 to 14,000 psi at the gas port to function realiably. Slower powders will result in high slide velocities, and beat the crap out of the reciever... faster powders will result in slow slide velocites, and poor case ejection, even when the presure is high enough to crater the primers... I can't speak for the Vahootie-Tootie powders, they are rare around here, and mostly list price.

Sure, you can be a spotter next year, but why not be a shooter...
It's the "Woodstock" of sniperdom.

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 18:18:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.46)

Bravo,
'lito's right on the powders and who ever told you about the Br primers is correct also from everything I have read. They recomended WW primers.

On the 7mm-08 they have a lot higher BC so they fly better but the big advantage is the wind bucking ability of these bullets compared to the .30s. The 6.5 is even better with a BC in the 560 to 630 area compared to 460 for the .30s. In a 20 mph wind there is like 4 to 5 feet difference in wind drift at 1000yds, plus there is a lot less recoil so you get the best of both worlds. The guys shooting the 260s and the 6.5-08s are enjoying the same ballistics as the guys shooting a 300wm.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 19:17:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Mike if you want to go to Canada and shoot. All you need a letter from the DCRA saying that you are going to be shooting in the match. I you take an AR-15 you have to have a trigger lock on it in a case that locked to you trunk. Only 20 round mags. And the same for a handgun pluse a card that shows that the handgun is regisdter in your name. And customs will stop you if you have a handgun. And you can only take 10 round mags into canada for handguns. Hope this helps. LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MICH, USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 19:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

I just wanted to toss up a quick salute in the general direction of Marius for a couple things.

First his willingness to clarify his original post.

Second his willingness to admit he made a mistake in presentation instead of trying to save face. Not enough people do that.

I have been a moderator on electronic lists and its well nigh impossible to please everyone.

I am also with Pablito and others who wish that this forum would turn back to its roots and more talk about the main subject was present. I too wish some of the old regulars would come back to the Duty Roster. When I first started reading this forum there was a lot more in the way of 'meat' [not sheep meat peteR] that we could learn from and on-topic discussion. Perhaps some of the old guard might be talked into returning and giving it another try? This student misses reading your posts.

Have fun at Carlos everyone. It's for a great cause! Wish I could go just to observe. :-)
JT - MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 19:52:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Hi Jim, long time no see !

On AR's in Canada.Check with customs first.Canadian firearms law treats AR's and handguns the same.They are both what is refered to as restricted weapons.In essence they are a controlled weapon.

DO NOT bring 20 rd. mags here unless you'd like to spend some time in prison.They are considered prohibited weapons, so you can get into some real doo doo with them.Magazine capacity for semi-auto centerfire rifle calibres is limmitted to only 5 rds.

Call the Canadian Firearms Center and ask tell them what you are planning to do.They will inform you of the procedures necessary to bring these weapons into Canada.I posted this number here last night, and I'll post it here again.Their # is 1-800-731-4000.

I don't want to see anyone get into any trouble at the border.That's the last thing you need to happen.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, September 23, 1999 at 19:52:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.176.68.154)

Bravo762 - NO SIR you are NOT the only one here that likes the VV powders!!! In fact the ONLY reas