Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 1999


Serri,

You didn't butt in, and your point is well taken. I read that General Giap (NVA) once said "The only rule in war is, you must win." He was right.
Preach that E&E any time you like.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 01:23:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

Anyone familar with the new laws affecting honest gun owners in the Peoples Republic of California? I understand that the current regime wants it where if you have a "assault rifle" you must give it up! Also, I heard that there is pending legislation to ban so-calles sniper rifles. Has anyone heard any of this crap? Also I want to share with all of you >308 buffs out there. I shot a group out of my custom Remington that measured .168". The load was 40.0gr Varget with a Sierra 175gr HPBT, F210GM primer. I moly coated the pills but I don't see any real difference except that I don't have to punch my bore until 120-235 rounds. Has anyone tinkered with the 175 Match Kings? Let me know
Jim
jwhiteII56@hotmail.com
Jim <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 02:22:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.190.71)
Greetings Folks

Well while Mike was off getting his vacation from which he needs a vacation, he left me with a webpage to build. Upon his return this afternoon we made a couple of quick changes and he has asked me to let you all know about his latest product.

I am proud to announce that Tactical Intervention Specialists is now producing the MRRB - The Mildew Resistant Rifle Bag. This product takes the place of a field-expedient sand sock and unlike the sock you wont get Athlete's Foot on your cheek from it.

The MRRB is made with the attention to detail and ruggedness that those of you who bought one of Mike's Quick Cuff Slings have come to know.

Drop by and check it out!
JT - Webmaster For Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Oakland, California, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 02:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

Bill B. There is no substitute for knowing you weapon and how to fix it if it goes down! Your odds are probably better with the M1a1 since you know it and what to carry to keep it going. ONly thing better is for it not to go down and nobody can guarantee that. There ain't a horse that can't be rode or a gun that don't ever break that I know of. The bolt is a good precaution if have it. A bolt gun can break a firing pin...I once broke one in a Styerr Manlicher $$$$ sniper rifle bigger Dallas. Course I don't use one anymore! Shat happens! It's a game of odds that keeps you alive and well. I guess it's like 1911 Colts. I love em and love to shoot em but trust em to keep me alive not! I've had some real Gems that won matches because they were reliable but out of the box I'd sooner trust any decent Wheel Gun, HK USP or Glock in that order. NOt intended to start a which Handgun is best discussion cause we've been there and done that.
MIke Undude I got to go with you on the drag bags. There must be something I'm missing there. But I just don't see me crawlin through enemy territory with my Sniper Rifle draggin behind me where I can't get to it. Sometimes... I get the impression there are those who don't think a bolt action can be employed against combat targets that know you are there and have you on so called firepower. I'd rather charge a platoon of UZI's than the worst Coyote Hunter I know with a bolt gun! Maybe a single Bolt Rifleman can be overrun but the cost would be high. Better be runnin low and fast! If you charge a Sniper and a spotter with 2 12 gauges. Who's first?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 02:43:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Aaaahhhhh!!! I can't take it anymore! I've been reading The Duty Roster for several months now and every time I see someone write something about a M1A1 I wonder what they are talking about. The only M1A1's I know about are "Tommy guns" and tanks! Surely they can't be referring to the M1A??

OK, I'm nit-picking here and maybe I need an education on this, but when it comes to the commercial semi-auto versions of the M14 the ones I know about are the M1A, M1A-A1 and M21. Exactly what is this M1A1 I keep seeing mentioned?

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 02:47:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.28.159)

Gary;Damned if I know? I thought it was a Springfield Armory rifle that was tricked out or something! These things are all variations of the M-14 and it's hard to zoom in on one as the example of the whole group of weapons/target guns and Assault variations. I'm just goin round spreadin rumors I guess.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 03:03:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Suggestions wanted on a gunsmith who can intsall a Hart barrel on a Rem 700. Hart can do it but it will take 6 months. They have a backlog of work.
Roy <.@.>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 03:05:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.130.4.100)
Here I go again with another slightly off-subject post - hope you will all forgive me!

I got motivated to do a bedding job on a rifle last weekend. The rifle involved in this project is a Rrrrruuuger 10/22 - but wait.... it's not a regular old Rrrrruuuger 10/22 - it's got a Clark match barrel and a Volquartsen fiberglas stock! Still there??? OK - I prepped everything and got ready to mix up the Brownell's GLASBED stuff.... what the hell is this.... the hardener is already hard!! I had 3 GLASBED kits on hand and all of them were useless because the hardener was already hardended (or at least partially hard!). So, I'm down in my basement ready to do the bedding thing and all I've got on hand to do the job is some J-B Weld. I figure what the hell - if it doesn't come out good I can always get out some sandpaper and get the crap out of there - so I bedded the thing with the J-B Weld. The deed is done and I must say the job sure as hell looks and feels good - but I'm wondering if this J-B Weld bedding job will hold up for any length of time.

So.... have any of you tried J-B Weld as a bedding compound and what were the results of using it? I probably wouldn't have gone out on a limb and tried it on a harder-hitting caliber, like say a .308, but I'm hoping it will be suitable for a .22LR. What's the verdict???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 05:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.46)

GSX-Gary,

Funny you should mention J-B weld, I just picked up another blister packet of it last night. For something as "feeble" recoiling as a .22 rimfire just about anything high grade epoxy composite should work O.K. I take it the action still came off the stock and isn't a "glue in"?

Jim White,

Just outta curiousity what velocity does 40.0 gr. of Varget give with the 175 MK's?

Serri,

Right on dude, Who was it that said "Winning is EVERYTHING" - Atilla the Hun? ;-)

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 12:35:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.72)

B. Rogers, Mike M.,

About the Sniper Drag-Bag thing. If the Sniper is real good at FieldCraft, and Stalking and is taking full advantage of his Longrange Shooting skills, I think his chances of survival are much better than those on the wrong end of his rifle. They won't be able to find him, much less, shoot him. I mean after all, he is concealed at long range, and their leadership is now minus one...or more! And our Sniper has a Spotter, who prob has an M16/M203. My money is on the Sniper Team.

Gotta Run Guys,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 13:30:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.52)

Scott
I thought I would pass on a well done here about the Padded Scope Covers from the PX. Neat product and with all the money we invest in scopes this is cheap protection. I use an OD on my L42A1/MIVM3LR and the black one on a 110/SSM. Well worth the money and and Scott does this as a service.

Sea Food dinner for Scott if your ever in the hood.

MJ
MJ <montereyjack@kmenterprises.com>
Monterey, Kalif., USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 17:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.236.189.200)

About drag-bag.
I am no sniper so somebody might be offended, but is it possible that you should use drag bags in some situations and do not use them in another? (Same as camouflage—you wouldn’t use woodland cammo in the city, would you? Or use .22 for elephant?)
It is obvious to me that it will be hard to drag the bag through dense bush area (same with the trees, jungles etc) and what is more gratifying for a foe to find the movement in the area—and it’s a sniper trying to free a stuck bag. On the other hand it is easy to drag the thing though low grass or sand. This may explain, in my opinion, the fact, that people who live in open country love the drag bags
Another thought is what kind of target you are stalking-- stationary, moving, alert etc.
For example: you are stalking a moving target (let say platoon size) and then they turn toward you and your rifle in drag bag somewhere behind you…
In my opinion it would be OK to use drag bag for stalking non-alert stationary target, when you can get close, make a position, wait for perfect shot etc.
Again it is my personal opinion. So as Mahoney in “police academy ” said—“be gentle”
HK

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 17:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

On the issue of stocks.

As I read in an early contribution, ergonomics is everything, especially if you're not the "Mr. Average" that all manufacturers build rifles for. In my case it's the length of my neck - I cannot shoot a rifle with a straight comb. I always buy a stock with the correct drop at heel and comb and modify the rest accordingly. I'm extremely fussy about pistol grips - they need to be nearly vertical, have no curve to bunch up your fingers and MUST have a palm swell (got to be comfortable if you're gonna sit behind it from dawn till dusk)

I buy fibreglass stocks unfinished - no paint etc. I put a couple of small self-tapping screws in the pistol grip and mould a new shape with plumbers' epoxy (it works like play dough when you activate the two components). I then spray the stock with automotive stone-chip paint (usually black but you can be pretty creative) and two coats of matt clear laquer. I have done this with EVERY long-range rifle I own and it works. This finish is as hard as any manufacturers' - I defy anyone to break the epoxy grip. Try it with an old stock sometime, you will be converted.

TooLong
TooLong <huzier@caribsurf.com>
- Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 18:30:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.50.93.2)

J.B. Weld; Gary I never tried it but I never thought of it either. That stuff is pretty tough. Why not?
On the Drag Bag; I guess if your going to crawl for a couple of hours to a couple of days and your dog meat if they spot you anyway it doesn't matter. But situations can go to hell in a handbasket so soon I wouldn't like to have to bring up the drag bag after someone thinks they have seen something and starts walking toward you. If the scenerio is that you have a spotter and he has his rifle ready and you have your gauge also it would be not so bad to have the rifle dragging back there and the spotter to free it should something get caught.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 18:36:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Drag Bags,
I must admit that I felt a lot like Mike when it came to drag bags ,that is until I had to actually do a stalk and crawl through grass and weeds. I had practiced by hooking my thumb through the sling and pulling it along as I went with the rifle resting on my arm. I soon found out that it catches on most everything and slows you down but not knowing any difference it worked for me. When i got down to the shoot in Nebraska the sniper boys were kind enough to let us use theirs if we wanted. I tried one and for our county out here it worked great. The ones we used were fairly light and not to bulky like a lot I have seen pictures of. It was more the size of a big rifle case with a few extra pockets on it. The snipers showed us how to tie it to our waist and drag it so you could guide it with your foot and if you need it, its not more than a pull away from you. I think its a matter of personal preference and terrain that will dictate there use, but all I was saying is give one a try before you throw the idea out the window.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 19:11:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)
Just acquired a Howa 1500 .308 Police Model. It is shooting great during break-in..Have a Chance to trade it on Rem. Pss..Am considering trade because nothing (accessories)seems avalable for Howa model..Any suggestions??
dan <Ltdan@wnclink.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 20:21:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.95.89.150)
Great thoughts on drag bags and good points.

Me thinks it would be a good idea to carry all your gear in one instead of a ruck sack which I really dislike. (still haven't figgered out how you can use a rucksack on a stalk, would look like a big humpty back camel coming through the bushes). If you have a spotter with you and you get spyed on he could keep the bad guys off until you could get the bag up to you or you could get your side arm out.

But I also think that you may want to pull your weapon out prior to getting in spook range so that if you have to take a longer shot than you had planned it would be ready to shoot.

Plus it really looks sexy!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 21:05:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.47)

Dan,

Keep the Howa,and be happy, my understanding is that the bottom profile is like the Win M-70(flat) and the top(where you screw the scope mounts on to)is round and matches the contour of the Rem 700.
So all mounts should be able to mount on your Howa,that are made for Rem 700's,you would have to check.Now I am going to piss off some Rem 700 owner's,so if think the pinicle of action design and manufactor is the Rem 700,just skip this post.The Howa has a flat bottom and usually bed's easer and better,also the Howa has a extractor that is better than the Rem type and is replacable,and last but not least the whole action is made straighter,truer and to more precise tolerance's.
The last thing I would do is to trade it on a Rem of any sought.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 22:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.228)

On Drag bags,

I pull the drag bag on a piece of nylon web strap. The front of the bag is up to where it is a little above my ankles, so I can "Steer" it with my feet. Must admit I have never tried a 600yd stalk/crawl with it. Hell, 50 yds is a long crawl to me! Bag is attached to a snap link on my belt, via a nylon strap. The bag is still needs some improvements for carrying equipment, and attachment of garnish. It seems that if someone can see me pull the bag up to get the rifle, then I picked a bad final firing point, or used poor camo/field skills. Or maybe I just ran out of luck. Whatever, it is good to talk about these kinds situations though.

Later,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 22:43:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

Drag Bags: My primary area of operation is No. Calif with lots of underbrush and bushes that can not be dragged or crawled through, so my view of drag bags is that it is one more thing to get caught on something. I have a cover that goes over my rifle and protects the muzzle and scope areas. One unit, kind of like a scabbard. It has a small handle and weighs next to nothing, compared to the commercial drag bags. I prefer this to the big drag bag. I like to go as light as possible.

Who ever I offended, I was just giving my opinion. You can do what ever you want. As to stalking I have never had a student do well in my AO dragging or carring one of the big bags. I am sure it has its place but I prefer to have something more versatile. If your in tall grass, jungle or whatever why would you want your rifle tied up where you can't get it if you had a choice?

If any of you think you are such great stalkers that you will never be seen or heard, by all means use the biggest darn bag you can find and haul a piano in it for all I care. I will stick with a small ruck(shooting support) and a smaller protective cover for the rifle. I can drag it, pull it, carry it, sling it and if the poop hit the fan shoot from it.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tacticali@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 23:35:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.26)

Dan:

All I want to know is, where did you come up with a Howa police gun? Is this a currently cataloged (or uncataloged) model? I remember seeing some Smith and Wesson-Howa wooden-stocked police guns years ago.

Before my ordeal with Remington over my 700PSS "outrage" gun, my original plan was to obtain a Howa heavy barreled action, McMillan stock and build the sucka' from the ground up, but alas Interarms only seems to bring them in in fits and spurts and none were in the conventional sporting goods supply system. I went with the Remington 'cause I *assumed* that Remington was the standard-setter, the best bang-for-the-buck, the One True Turnkey Solution. Wrong-o. Refer to the archives to see just how awry things went before I finaly fixed the damn thing myself.

There was an artical in TS magazine some issues back that detailed how a 'smith built up a Howa much as I intended to and that confirmed the high opinion of Howa bolt guns I have held for many years. They may not exactly be big innovators or original thinkers in terms of action design, but they have displayed good taste in deciding what features to rip off from others. The actions are true and require little to no tweaking and the OEM barels are actualy of rather good quality. The trigger is servicable and fully adjustable. The extractor is strait outa' Finland: why pay somebody to add a Sako extractor to your Reminigton bolt when Howa already puts it there for you? The bolt is a no-tools takedown design, a very nice thing for guns that live hard lives in the real world.

Built a sporter for a guy one time at the shop I was working at. He wanted an accurate, powerful, high-quality rifle and he wanted it cheap. Okay. I order in a Howa barreld action in .338 for all of about $225 at the time and a &50 Bell and Carlson stock. I unceremoniously slapped it together using steel-filled Acra-Glas jell, and I had a first class 1 MOA rifle with factory ammo. Add a Vari-X II and Redfield mounts and, well, what else is there to want in a hunting rifle? He was most happy, and I was most impressed with how simple the whole job had been.

-Tom
Now in the market for a Howa long action to build a .30-06.

PS: Morris: MY shooting jacket is a Creedmore product that they make out of a heavy green canvas, which does a fine job of splitting the difference between a full heavy jacket and the old USMC-pattern cloth jackets. I think they sell for about $90-100.
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Cheery Colatown, in hurricane-resistant SC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 00:00:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Does any one have any load data on the Hornady A-Max .30 caliber bullets? I have tried the Hornady 168gr HPBT and had no luck getting them to group under a inch and a half. The Sierras poke a nice group, .316 or less. Also has any one tried the new Nosler J4 competitiopn 168 grainers? Please let me know how you did with these. I am workinf towards 1 bullet, one powder, and one primer.

Semper Fi!
Jim
James <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 00:15:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.11)

The recent exchange on Howa actions sent me to my 1994-95 Brownell's catalogue. There alongside the Remington barrelled actions you'll see Howa Model 1500's. Comparable retail prices to a Model 700, if a little less ($382 for a Howa vs $424 for a somewhat similar Remington). Brownells's secret pricing code will remain a secret with me ...

Terry

PS the 1000 yard range in Saskatchewan, Canada with the esker was completed over the summer. There will be a three day shoot second weekend of September, not that I'll be able to attend.
Terry Warner <terry.warner@sympatico.ca>
Canada - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 02:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.172.92.85)

Hey guys,
I'm looking for detailed info on installing pillars and glass bedding a Rem M-700 BDL....
A buddy of mine had a 338 Mashburn Super Mag build by Mcgowen and it seems to be scattering shot all over paper.......
So yours truly as been appointed to fix it.........
I tried to explain to my friend just trade that Rem for a good winchester M-70 and your troubles would be over, but he was set on THAT darn Rem.........

So any help would be appreciated........BigGunn.............
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn.Country, Pa., USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 02:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

Remington 788 Modifications

To Scott(T.O.O)
Thanks to Steve and Ron N. for corresponding with me. Scott, you need to read the Nov. - Dec. 1978 Rifle magazine (Issue 60). It has a great article on building up the 788. I'm working on a practical rifle starting with a 788 carbine in 7mm-08. The only thing I have to solve is the magazine issue. The modifications suggested by D.L. Rowe in the Rifle article require a lengthening of the magazine support which means that once you start using 5 round mags (also explained well in the article) you can't use the factory three rounders. I'm working on a change to Rowe's design that will allow you to go back and forth. I'll keep you posted.
John
John <murray19@prodigy.net>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 02:38:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.0.133)

Does anyone have any comments on the Ziess/Davari 5x15 variable or the Savorski 6x24 variable. Would appreciate any input. Am considering putting one or the other on my newly acquired 700 pss. Thanks in advance.
halfblind <jorgensl@ix.netcom.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 03:17:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.187.94.34)
Bill Rogers-- I enjoyed your 8/29 post, especially the part about will being the most important thing, more important than numbers, weapons, everything. Simon Bolivar in an open letter to the people of Venezuela in 1814, as they were trying to throw off the red-handed colonial rule of the Spaniard: ".....Do not compare your physical forces with those of the enemy, because spirit and matter cannot be compared. You are men; they are beasts. You are free; they are slaves. Fight, and you will win. Victory is granted to the persevering." The Liberator know how to fight and how to write! If you are a reader try to find "Selected Writings of Bolivar". It's letters to and from him during the fight for freedom, fascinating stuff.

I see some recent posts about high power shooting. I'm getting back into this a bit after dabbling in it 15 years ago (to get my M1). The chum who is helping me out is a pretty regular winner at local matches and has shot Perry several times. I was pretty impressed to see him shoot MOA or nearly so at 200 yds with iron sights. Dang, what if he had a scope!?
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 03:21:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.46)

Re: VarGet, Hornady Bullets... 40 grs VarGet seems way to low but the shooter must be following the Sierra manual, which is OK. Am shooting 155 AMAX, 168 SIERRA MK and 175 AMAX with 45.0 VarGet with great results, Unfortunately I don't have a chrony (hint, hint wife)so I can't spout all the empirical data. BTW, these loads are being shot out of 2 different Rems(700V & 700 VSSF) and 2 Savages(Tactical & Scout)all .308, so something must be working !!
FORGET the 168 Hornady match bullets, for that matter I am higly disappointed with the HORNADY TAP ammo. Just for "grin & chuckles" I pulled 40 rounds of 100 rds to check them out. The brass ISN'T chamfered and the bullets themselves have a weight variation that boggles the mind. These are for LE use ??!! I sorta "Mexican Matched" these loads and inserted 168 Sierra MK moly and will shoot them against the "factory" Hornady.
As for the Nosler J4 bullets...picked up a half dozen while at the SHOT show and the weight variance wasn't as good as the Sierra MK OR Nosler's own BT's !! Hmmmm...anyway, the weight varied by over 1/2 gr either way from 168 and that was only for 6 !
Last but not least... Drag Bags, made mine from an old isssue "jump" bag. Works great with some modification (Extra zipper and a towing strap) saved a lot of $$$$. To me the main problem is what do you intend to use the drag bag for ? I'm in the South and I generally use it to transport to and from my Starlight case which is in my truck and if my truck is a ways from the firing area. Unless there is a specific reason to drag more gear all over the terrain...Why do it ?? I use what is known as "Finger Cots" to cover my muzzle to keep crud out. Most drag bags I have seen would make a good guncase to stash behind the seat and maybe a nice mat to shoot on. Any Active Duty slotted shooters have details about using drag bags?? Trigger? Thats my 2 cents worth.
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Alabama, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 04:08:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.192.80.183)
Drag Bags,

Aren't drag bags these days a little overkill? I mean drag bags like the Eagle and Blackhawk are just massive and have a zillion pockets to hold everything but the kitchen sink. Wouldn't you be better off to just buy a basic soft case that fits your rifles profile as closely as possible and then just camo it up and have a neater and more managable case?

TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 04:31:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.54)

UnDude,
Just because you don't happen to agree about the drag bags and you voiced your opinion doesn't mean you offended anyone. Hell if we all agreed on everything this would be a boring sight!! I even agree with what your saying and I sure as hell ain't no expert on them either and the one I tried was small and light weight with only a couple of pockets in it for maybe a bino or a range finder. It actually wasn't much bigger than the ballistic nylon rifle cases you see for sale and it also had some nice features for attaching garnish to.

Howas,
Are pretty fair rifles for the money they have some nice features but are havier than hell when you buy one complete. It feels like the stocks are made out of concrete!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 11:46:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Duudes,

non-pocketed Drag bags are featured under the "In Review" section of Sniper Country. Might bear looking at for those who think all of them look like a stretched Alice pack.

Funny you should mention Hornady TAP, mine had bullet weights of within 2/10 grain and powder was REAL CLOSE. What lot # do you have?

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 11:48:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.156)

Chris & Tom,
Thanks for the info on Howa..I purchased it from a local gunshop tha t have them in stock..It is a 24" heavy barrel with synthetic stock(butler creek?)..The only Mcmillan stocks available seem to be the Sako styles. I was hoping for an A2 type..This gun really shoots though..Under 1 moa while breaking in..Thanx again..
Dan <Ltdan@wnclink.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 12:27:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.95.89.150)
A snippet from "The Prince" by that Machiavelli dude: He even uses my "most excellent" language.

Chapter VI:
Of New Dominions Which Have Been
Acquired by One's Own Arms and Ability

"Let no one marvel if in speaking of new dominions both as to prince and state, I bring forward very exalted instances, for men walk almost always in the path trodden by others, proceeding in their actions by imitation. Not being always able to follow others exactly nor attain to the excellence of those he imitates, a prudent man should always follow in the path trodden by great men and imitate those who are most excellent, so that if he does not attain to their greatness, at any rate he win get some tinge of it. He will do as prudent archers, who when the place they wish to hit is too far off, knowing how far their bow will carry, aim at a spot much higher than the one they wish to hit, not in order to reach this height with their arrow, but by help of this high aim to hit the spot they wish to."

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 14:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.58)

Jeez PeteR, have you gone to the dark side or did you just get through watching Robin Hood? LOLLOLOLOL

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 14:53:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Just read the drag bag article on "In Review" section. Some good info here , check it out. Anyone know of a source for the GI canvas , I think M1950 series rifle bag for parachuting. I want to try and make a drag bag/transport case of one. Will a 26" barreled long action M40 type Remington fit in one?
Thanks,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 15:34:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.108)
UnDude/Mike,

Hey, you didn't offend me a bit. Your opinions are certainly appreciated. Commercial Drag Bags are big, and bulky. I think smaller and lighter drag bags are the way to go in the field. Drag bags have their place in the bag of tricks, it is there if you need it. Sounds to me like you developed a bag/cover that suits your A.O.
Great Stalker? Me? I wish!! I try different things to see what works, and what doesn't. It's been interesting...and frustrating too.

Best Regards,

Bill
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:07:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192)

Bill B,
Sounds like you and I have the same feelings about stalking, its frustrating and a young mans game!!(HA) I am of the school of, just get me there and I will shoot it!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:24:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)
Hello. For those of you who answer questions on the dangers of teaching young people to shoot. In the Toronto area a retired high class call girl is offering
jiliyan milne <jiliyan@hotmail.com>
toronto, ont, canada - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:35:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.164.161.11)
While we are discussing drag bags, what about G-suits?
Do you always need them, or you could leave with netting simmilar to "Stalker" thing? At least the netting doesn't have that much weight.
Any opinions?
HK
P.S. Mike/Undude. I live in S. California and have same underbrush, and the problem to drag myself throught it, not to mention drag bag.
Another question in California it is two colors yellow and green, which one is to use for cammo netting or G-suite? And what color is better for city?

HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:37:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

I fear that the end of my note was lost. Computers are wonderful.

Anyhow. This high class call girl is offering lessions to women "in the trick of the trade" Most of the women who take the classes ate happly married middle calss women with office jobs.

I understand that the husbands of the women have no objections to the classes - indeed -I have been told that the are just sooo happy to help with the home work...

My point is that the morality and danger of a skill or a tool is dependent stri ctly on the use a person chooses to make of it.

That is why I hope that you might add to your opening page that people under 18 are allowed in with adult supervision.

Take care
Jiliyan
jiliyan milne <jiliyan@hotmail.com>
tortonto, ont, canada - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:43:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.164.161.11)

Been away for a bit, come back to find an ad for a retired "high class" call girl? Very nice! Whatever changes the webmaster made...I like:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:51:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

OK, I see the point. What I have is basically a small light 3/4 length drag bag, so I am going to make a full length light weight one and give it a try. What I have tried in the past was the 20lbs specail available from the big names.

Camo for Calif. I like RealTree Brown for the grass and low hill area. Urban I like gray

Time to make some slings for the Carlos Match.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif`, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 18:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.48)

Man I don't see how you military folks put up with the funky stinking smell from your nylon waterproof gear. Just got some surplus stuff and, opened the box and damn near gagged. Anybody know how to clean this stuff. If I used it on a stalk, Al O. might think I was one of them sheepies and put his nose down and track me down. Damn what a smell!!!!!!!!!

Minor question.....
Did Carlos use a gillie suit?????????????????
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 19:54:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.186)


" Anyone know of a source for the GI canvas , I think M1950 series rifle bag for parachuting. I want to try and make a drag bag/transport case of one. Will a 26" barreled long action M40 type Remington fit in one? "

**************

Sadly, no. A fair bit too short, I'm afraid. Bought one for $12 with the very same idea in mind. It could perhaps be used as raw materials for such a bag but not as-is.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Dowright tropical Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 21:29:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Dan:

McMIllan told me a few months ago that they make the A2 (I think) for the Howa. Sounds like a plan to me. :)

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Efficiently run if slightly bland Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 21:38:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Scope for An M1A (Burris vs. Leupold)

I am getting ready to make my first purchase of a quality scope (quality for me at least). The rifle I will be putting it on is a Springfield M1A Enhanced which is not a tack-driving precision rifle by any means but I still want as much quality in the optics as I can afford. I bought a Springfield 3rd Generation mount before I knew any better so that will limit the accuracy in itself. I don't think I need a long range scope since I don't ever plan on shooting more than 300 - 500 yards and probably not even that.

I have been looking at the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 X 40mm but noticed the Burris Black Diamond 3-12 X 50mm which is about $50.00 more.

I know there are lots of Leupold faithful out there, how about Burris defenders? What kind of optical quality, durability can i expect from the Burris.

Any other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated as well.
JamesB <jbarrier@juno.com>
WA, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 23:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.82.215.2)

Does anyone have any experience with the new Steyr Prohunter SBS series of rifles? I hear they are making a heavy barrel .308 model. Are these on par with the SSG?
Jason <BaronSomed@aol.com>
Scottsdale, AZ, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 23:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.16)
Don,
I have jumped an M-60 plenty of times with a M1950 and it still had some room left over. There is an M1950 Modified which is used for the M249 SAW and wont fit anything much longer. If it has a yellow leg strap it is an M1950. If it has a white leg strap it is an M1950 Modified. Should be plenty of room for a rifle with a 26" barrel.
TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 23:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.59)
Pete - Will get back to you on Lot# of TAP after this weekend.

As for the M-60...it isn't a M-24 and you have to modify the 1950 case to fit which any good shoe repair shop could do. The 26" barrel is just a bit longer and if you have a recoil pad added to the stock makes it just a bit longer yet. Inside the 1950 case is a leather piece which can be cut to allow another 3/4" and as stated earlier. modifying the case helps. What I did was cut the case and add a zipper where the barrel normally goes. Works for me !! Brigade Quartermaster was selling the 1950, I forget the price.

I am going to be "out of the loop" till 10 Sept, Ya'll take care, shoot straight and often !!!
Later, OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Alabama, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 00:50:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.130.38)

JamesB.,
Burris puts out a fine piece of glass. My only complaint would be with the 50mm objective. It puts the scope way up in the air and I personally have a hard time with that. I have sold several of them and none of my customers have ever complained about the quality.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 01:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.139)
This website is great. Probably the best I have seen on the subject. A wealth of information.

Thanks.
John Haus <JWH446@aol.com>
Walnut, CA, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 02:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.173)

Hello all,

I have found that Hornady die sets have a superior locking ring method. You'll find that they don't have set screws which will destroy the threads on the die body. This allows you to readjust things in the future without fighting crushed threads.

DP
Dale Pennington <pennstar@hotmail.com>
Round Lake, IL, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 02:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.185.24.106)

Pat/Mr Bullet,

Have you been to SMTC yet? Are you going to SMTC for the Carlos Hathcock II Memorial Match? I would like to, but will prob have to work.
Yep, I am starting to think the shooting is the "Easy" part, and Stalking is the hard part. Oh yeah, it would be a lot more fun if I were 20yrs old.

Well, gotta go load some more ammo.

Later,

Bill
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 03:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.36)

Honored Shooters,
Can I have some of your combined experience on the best hunting load that comes closest to the 168 grain boattail hp by federal that my agency hasme shoot onduty.I know a well placed shot is best of all and know two legged animals drop just fine with my duty load.I don't want to seriouly redope my rifle to go hog hunting so any commercial
Max Houser <Badkarma6@mbayweb.com>
Monterey, Ca., USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 08:21:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.158.82)
Honored Shooters,
Can I have some of your combined experience on the best hunting load that comes closest to the 168 grain boattail hp by federal that my agency has me shoot onduty.I know a well placed shot is best of all and know two legged animals drop just fine with my duty load.I don't want to seriouly redope my rifle to go hog hunting so any commercial
Max Houser <Badkarma6@mbayweb.com>
Monterey, Ca., USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 08:23:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.158.82)
Max H-

I have no reports on the penetration of the load you are using, and you did not specify whether it was match grade ammo, Federal Premium, or what. Most states that allow hi powered rifle hunting, require only that a round/rifel meet a minimum muzzle velocity/energy, and that you use hollow points or soft tips. depending on where you aim, you could most certainly down large game with that load. If you are not worried about trophy (a practice many frown on anyway, but whatever floats your boat) you could quite easily take a head shot,and save the meat. So long as you are confident in your rifle's acuracy, and your ability, that would work fine. Some people I know from one department, go for a neck shot on deer, using the same rig and load they are duty slotted with, and have great success. I believe the aimpoint is midway or just a hair more up, right about where you cut off at when butchering, go for the mass of muscle there. That spot has a lot of arteries, nerves, and none of the deer they have taken have run more than 10 to 15 feet. As far as using a different comparable load, I will let some of teh ballistics gurus here debate that point. Another idea is get several comercial hunting rounds in the same *range* of weight, some lighter, some heavier, some the same, go to the range and see where they group as compared to your POA.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
unworthy of mention, Maryland, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 11:32:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

This "Mach of the Day" is for Bolt, Bill Rogers, and Partisan.........

Chapter XIV:
The Duties of a Prince
with Regard to the Militia

A prince should therefore have no other aim or thought, nor take up any other thing for his study, but war and its organization and discipline, for that is the only art that is necessary to one who commands, and it is of such virtue that it not only maintains those who are born princes, but often enables men of private fortune to attain to that rank. And one sees, on the other hand, that when princes think more of luxury than of arms, they lose their state. The chief cause of the loss of states, is the contempt of this art and the way to acquire them is to be well versed in the same.
Francesco Sforza, through being well armed, became, from private status, Duke of Milan, his sons, through wishing to avoid the fatigue and hardships of war, from dukes became private persons.

For among other evils caused by being disarmed, it renders you contemptible; which is one of those disgraceful things which a prince must guard against, as will be explained later. Because there is no comparison whatever between an armed and a disarmed man; it is not reasonable to suppose that one who is armed will obey willingly one who is unarmed; or that any unarmed man will remain safe among armed servants. For one being disdainful and the other suspicious, it is not possible for them to act well together. And therefore a prince who is ignorant of military matters, besides the other misfortunes already mentioned, cannot be esteemed by his soldiers, nor have confidence in them.

Chao!

oops heres the link for those who wish intellectual substance:
http://www.mattbrown.net/machiavelli/
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 11:36:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.66)

Bill B,
No, I haven't been to SMTC but whould love to go. I am signed up for the match but things have changed here at home so I won't be able to make it. My son gets married next weekend in Iowa and the week after that I have to turn around and head back to Mayo for my wifes check up so I have just ran out of time. I would love to make it out just to be able to meet some of the guys, that alone would be worth the price of admission. Maybe next year!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 11:46:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)
Can someone send me some names, addresses or phone numbers of some good M1A/M14 armorers. Building up one and would like to "tweek" a little more accuracy out of the service grade components.

Appreciate the help.
Darren <xm852@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 12:04:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.40)

Mach was one smart s.o.b.! Some of these bleeding heart politicians should read some of his stuff. Problems is, intellectual and politician in the same phrase is usually but not always oximoronic.

How DID Carlos make it across that field undetected?

"Prince" Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 12:10:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.43)

Bolt:

When you run across coated nylon products that stink badly, this is uslaul a sign that the urethane coating on the nylon has chemicaly failed. Older (pre mid '70s) commercial backbacking gear does this as well. Later formulations are more stable.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Outrageously beautiful this morning Colatown, in sunny SC, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 13:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.174.100)

I am currently a sniper with the Minidoka County Sheriff Office.

I am looking for training and equipment to further my abilities in
this field. I look forward to further communications.
gary l fowler <tucowgrl@cyberhighway.net>
rupert, idaho, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 14:11:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.161.38.195)

Pete,

Gotta love that Machiavelli! Thanks for the snippets.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 15:06:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.31.4.47)

This is one of the best sites I have had the opportunity to visit.
Thnk you.
Wayne Howard <wayniac70@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 15:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.241.250.101)
Hey guys, thought I'd throw in my two cents worth on Drag Bags and G-Suits. I do not use a drag bag and we actively discourage drag bags in SOTIC. They will get you in trouble in many instances. The things will reach out ten to fifteen feet just to grab a branch and scream "Here I am!!!". Seriously, during a stalk, snipers have a tendency to become focused on what is the most obvious, movmetn for them. The weapon in a drag bag is out of sight and out of mind. This cuases drag bags to "stand at attention" when snagged while being dragged along the ground. The next problem is the abuse becomes greater because, well hell it is "protected". I have jumped all over students who have dragged a weapon while walking because they have crawled through a danger area and then stood to walk. If you keep the weapon in your arms you will protect it properly. Take the time to move the weapon and place a protective scope/action cover on the weapon as well as a muzzle protector (Mike makes a fine one). This makes the weapon close at hand, under control, and in you attention zone. It only takes a bit more attention cycles of the brain to maintain control and move the weapon with you instead of dragging the dm thing!!!!

G Suits, most people make burlap wooly boogers. 60 to 70 percent of the suit is natural camo with the burlap used to break up the outline. The G-Suit is designed to blend you with the terrain, not hide you NOR desguise you. Burlap looks like burlap, NOT grass, bushes, trees, nor PDs :). A head veil will get alot of people through and a body net will do the rest. The full sun stroke suit as shown in movies and TV is not necessary. If you must, then be carful and ventilate the suit and watch how much burlap and junk you put on it. Leave off the canvas front and use elbow and knee pads for crawling. If you crawled that far, then you need to learn route selection.

One last thing, for those of you who asked about the 1950 weapons cntainer, we use them every class for ---- jumping the M24s out of the airplane while in fright and then leaveing them on the DZ for turn in by the DZ party. They fit with the adjustable buttplate completely closed. That is the M24, not most civilian rifles.

Oh well, have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 22:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.47)

Thank you, thank you Rick.
HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 23:21:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)
Max Houser, ref 168 equivalent hunting loads:

Sierra makes a 165 gr Game King that others on this discussion group firmly recommended to me when I asked a question similar to yours. If you have access to reloading equipment, why not make up some Mexican Match? Pull the 168 gr bullets from whatever ammo you've got, inspect the necks for a good chamfer (or give the cases a quick spin), then reseat with 165 gr Game Kings to the same overall length. A trip to the range will confirm your zero and grouping.

Terry
Terry Warner <terry.warner@sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 23:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.172.163.56)

Regarding the rounds based on the 404 Jefferies, when you start to throw those bullets at that speed "bad things" tend to happen. I have had problems with the Berger 210VLD's breaking up, and I was only shooting them out of a 30-338 at around 2700fps. One thing to consider is most of the custom bullets are made with J-4 jackets, which tend to be very thin. When they start to exceed 3000 fps, give or take, especially with the larger caliber, they start to break up. Also the boot tails get beat all to hell and you start getting fliers. Boots Obermeyer pointed this out in the file on this web site. I shoot with Boots and he is probably one of the best shooters I know. His barrels are great also, when you can get one! I would say try to stick with the Sierra's and any custom VLD's made with Sierra jackets since thay are thicker. I am currently playing with 180gn 7mm JLK's in my 7MAG and will see if they frag like the Berger 210 did. I just don't learn. Semper Fi..Ken
Ken <Target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 01:36:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.164)
Couple of different things:
For a hunting load similar to the 168 MatchKings use the Hornady 168 A-Max gives IDENTICAL performance in MY 700VS as the 168 MK's and no real noticable change in the POI!
What electronic/holo/fiberoptic sights do you'all use on your AR?? What type of mount i.e. carry handle, in front of the carry handle, etc. do you use with the above sight?? This would be "primarily" a CQB type sight maybe out to 100-200yds.

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 02:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.155)

RE: Dot Sights on AR-15 CQB guns...

Brownell's carries a "CQB Scope Mount" by Mark Brown. Catalog # 133-101-015. Page 279 of Catalog 51. Price is $85.

It requires machining of the upper receiver (removal of the carrying handle just forward of the rear sight) for installation.

It places an Aimpoint Comp or a Tasco PDP-4 in the proper position so that the dot is right wear it needs to be, on top of the front sight.

If you don't want to do that, C-More Systems makes a C-more sight that mounts forward of the Carrying Handle and puts the dot there also.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 08:17:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.57)

Bad mouthing me while I was gone Huh??

Asnwer a couple of questions which people had. Bruce. you mentioned your AR using a 75 grainer to reach out up to 400 yards. BUt have you tried to extend that range out to 600 to 900. HIts at that range are then purely speculative. Ill take a 168 grainer in a 308 over a 223 any day for the long shots. Learned that lesson all too quickly several weeks ago.

Gary Fowler, Want to extend your learning for your police sniper. Take a couple course from Storm Mountain Training Center. At www.stormmoutain.com,. They have all the courses your little heart desires.

Last final question about the Accuracy International AICS. That chassis systems seems pretty good, but does anyone have any real pratical experience with it and does anyone here feel that the price is justified. I was thinking about buying one to put another tac rifle together, but am having trouble trying to justify spending the bucks for that stock. But if you feel it si worth the$$$$ then maybe Ill consider it even more.

Thanks everyone.

al o.

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Back home here in my Wife's Loving arms in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 13:33:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.76)

Sarge,

Heres the reply received from a Hornady Technical rep. on the A-Max'es for hunting applications:

"They were designed as a target bullet, they might expand too rapidly."

I'll dig deeper........

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 14:27:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.191)

I am about to purchase my first .308. I have been looking at both the Robar SR-60 and the TBA M40A2, both with Leopold Mark 4 M3 with mil-dot. The SR-60 costs $570 more than the TBA A2. Additionally the Robar does not have the adjustable comb like the TBA A2. Is the SR-60 that much better? Should I be aware of any differences? ANY advice would be much appreciated. Thanks, Dan
Dan <djnolan@mindspring.com>
Macon, GA, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 17:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.4.34)
If you are crushing threads on your dies, the trick your uncle didn't tell you is: Put a shotgun pellet under the screw. The screw will bottom on it and force it into the threads. No ganked threads, holds better.

Weren't Weatherby Vanguards Howa actions ? Sounds like a good idea to use one. As it is a Mauser 98/Win. M70 derivative, do any of the soup up parts of that ilk work on Howas ?

Thank you, T50, Steve, and Pythagoras. I have ruined a few pieces of aluminum, and by God, all is well. Hey, you know you can use this nonsense in the horizontal axis, too. Next time I'm at the range, I plan to center the reticle's windage and run it all but 3 minutes from the top. I'll shoot a group, and see if I can't violate a gunsmith's base (Warne) to allow me to mount the scope with as close to mechanical zero as I can. (way too much free time. Using a mill is a beautiful thing. No way could I talk a smith into doing this without paying a fortune.)
Jim <surfbeat@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or., USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 19:06:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.84)

I agree on the 600 to 900 yard problems with AR/223 bullets.

But, in L.E., there is a limit on the ranges likely encountered. The average for the police sniper is somewhere around 80 yards (and no, I did not forget to put in an extra Zero...:-) )

I have been told that the "World Record" among L.E. Snipers is somewhere in the vicinity of 425 yards.

L.E. rifle work is a different animal. The military sniper depends on stealth to get in to his target, and if he can't get close, there may be a 800 yard shot. If a L.E. Sniper gets called out, the bad guy probably knows that the cops are there. He will have 15 cruisers and a SWAT Van parked in his front yard.

And, since the goal of the LE Sniper is to STOP the perp immediately, a body shot won't cut it. Head shots are almost mandatory, so it behooves the shooter to get as close as possible.

For my use, the AR is proving to be quite worthwhile.

(With my luck, the next call-out will require one of those 900 yard shots....KNOCK ON WOOD!)

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 22:14:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.197)

Good day, collegues.

Perhaps you will excuse me for my poor english.

I have heard, that someone accused SVD rifle of being inaccurate. Someone very emotionaly, even as i note, unproffesionaly emotionaly, cry that "dont buy a Dragunov unless you want to be laughed at by your serious sniping buddys". Serious snipers... Or even "buddys". Stop that histeric. I am tolerant about any oppinion of all "buddys". But my honour as a proffesional dictate me to tell some words about that weapon, for unprejudiced audithory.

As you perhaps guessed, I am Russian, and know about this rifle much more than some "buddys", "fellows" and "guys".

I can tell you officialy that: SVD has accuracy about 0,9 MOA. That is proven in practice. That accuracy is measured on standard sniper-grade ammo, so called "Snajperskie". Some anecdotical tales of 3, 4, 5 MOA is nothing more than anecdotical tales. Probably they have measured your shotgun?

The problem, I guess is a lack of quality SVD ammo in US. I don't know what "Norma" is, but if they achieved such 3 MOA on that ammo, either they are paralitics, either "Norma" produces trash. May be both options are right?

I don't recommend, however, to buy SVD. And that's why:
1. No quality, fresh, specially designed ammo for it on US market;
2. SVD is intended for proffessional use only - if you are beginner or intermediate sniper you can encounter some problems.
There is a lot of other rifles in US, so you have many choices.

And last. Remember: underestimation of enemy is a quickest way home. In the "eternity box". We are enemies. So underestimate us, until you meet me some gray morning on the field. Or meet my bullet.

Thanks for attention.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Somewheretown, Russia - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 23:59:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Paskz - Welcome to our corner of my gun is better than yours! :) That is a problem here and WE ALL indulge. I will recommend to the shooters here not to buy an SVD due to poor quality ammo and the fact that Russia does NOT export their new weapons. Or atleast we don't see them. I have fired the SVD extensively and we teach the weapon on our course (know your potential enemies' weapon). Since a large portion of the world is equiped with old "Soviet" equipment we teach it. I have found that it is difficult to shoot the scope and to range with it at the longer ranges. I have had problems with barrel whip with it and since the barrel is so thin have had problems with barrel droop. Can you help me with these problem and how you get around them? Thank you and again welcome!

Bruce - No you don't want to have to make that 900 yard shot in the LE arena! A miss on Perp and hit on innocent would be a career ender! But it is fun to wish isn't it. On the use of the 5.56 for your use, I have tried to get a number of LEAs to go that way due to the flatter trajectory and higher velocity. It allows a much faster follow on shot and lowers the signature of the rifle. This helps in the NEWS agency reports. "Sounded like a gawd dang cannon when that thar cop fired!" Besides, you can tell it is Mattel, it's swell! :)

Al - We shoot them in the course as we do the SVD since it is basically the L96A1, which is what we have. None of us like the feel nor the accuracy we have gotten from the weapon. NOW, that said, ours is one of the first models and they may have changed some things. But it looks the same and I do not like the feel of the weapon. I wouldn't own one, but then Reed Knight bought one at the Shot Show! Go figure!

Ken - Take it you have watched the smoke trail and mid range powder puff too. I have seen some real hummers on paper turn to lead dust half way to the target.

Got to go guys, have fun and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 00:32:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.41)

For any of the M14 gunsmiths out there who work on Palma/1,000 Yard Competition M14/M1A rifles: my rear sight is up 50 clicks, half-minute hood down, zeroed for 1,000 yards (43 minutes, hood down for 900; 37 for 800). How many thousandths do I ask my gunsmith to mill off the front blade to have the sight at only 4 or five minutes from the bottom for 200 yards? 50 up is really high and is doing nothing for my spot weld (I'm having to raise my cheek/eye to shoot, and would like it down lower, but still be able to shoot the rifle across-the-course when I don't have the scope mounted). Load is LC GI cases, 175 Moly Match Kings, 43.2 IMR 4064, WLR primed. Thanks.
Dave Liwanag <liwanag@mindspring.com>
Fairfax, Virginia, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 02:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.69.167)
Paskz, the SVD-dudeski,

By all means fill us in on the latest Dragunov lore from the motherland, we try to absorb and welcome all knowledge of sniping here like Bowcher said.

I shot a Chinese Draganov with matchski ammo for a Dope Bag review in The American Rifleman a few years back. But then, you are probably not familiar with the NRA Technical staff evaluations are you?
summation: Neat - expensive - toy, but yes it will probably do the job just fine in "skilled hands" out to 500 Meters. Even on Area 51 prairie dogs! (Still L.M.A.O. - SARGE!)

Give me a scoped Moisen-Nagant any day over one of the extended cab AK's. You have probably also shot them too pretty extensively I'll venture......

Hexa, Do you have anything to add?

FYI An out of the box Remington 700 bolt action 7.62x51mm(the preferred design here in USA) will generally average .600 to .900 MOA in the hands of us sloppy beginning shooters with good factory ammo.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 03:36:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.54)

Pazk:

We in the US are subjected to a lot of conflicting information on the performance of the SVD. One published report came out of Iraq, where several capured SVDs were tested for accuracy and found to be inaccurate and came with log books from the factory that were interpreted as indicating that Soviet accuracy standard were not rigorous. The type of ammunition on hand for the testers to use was not stated, but given the Iraqis generaly poor organization and logistics in that operation, it would not suprise me if they issued them with non-sniper grade ammunition, probably delinked PKM ball ammo. Also, the people who wrote the artical may not have known how to interpret the documentation found with the rifles. This is a common problem with media types here.

However, in a very recent issue of Tactical Shooter magazine, a Russian SVD was tested in detail with the proper Russian sniper ammunition and it proved to be a very accurate (< 1 MOA) rifle, more than accurate enough to fulfill the requirements called for by Russian doctrine and not at all bad by western standards, either. It was certainly accurate enough to keep me worried at any reasonable range. They were especialy impressed with the clarity and light transmission efficiency of the scope.

The "sporter" SVD I fired several weeks ago was owned by an individual who knew nothing about the rifle or its scope who let me fire 10 rounds of some Russian-made 200 grain softpoint hunting loads. It shot poorly with that ammo, but then I know from experience that the hunting ammo that Russian makes for export is usualy not very good. I have some Russian-made military ball ammunition that seems to be very accurate in my M38 Mosin-Nagant carbines. I would like to work with an SVD in detail at some point, as this is a cartrige I am already set up to reload for.

Norma ammunition is made in Sweeden and is nominaly of very good quality, but is not intended for use in SVDs.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 04:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.139)

Dave Liwanag:

Its too late for me to crunch all the numbers for you, but .008" reduction in front sight heigth equals a 1 MOA shift in POI, per Kuhnhausen.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 04:25:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.139)

Varget proves to be non-meter friendly!

I attempted to put together my first handloads using Varget tonight, but the dropping of the powder proved to be something of a disaster. I have both an elderly Lyman 48 measure and a late-model Bonanza, and both dropped 43.5gr of Varget with a .3-.4 gr. variance from charge to charge. Not good in my book. I ended up weighing and tricking out 50 loads. I had forgotten just how big a pain in the ass that is. Its been a while since I have used extruded powder but it seems to me that I used to could drop IMR 4895 a lot more consistanly than this, and of course the Lyman 48 is a great ball powder measure.

Sooo, now what? do I start shooping for another measure, or buy one of those super-duper automated scale units like an Autoscale (and who sells that thing now, anyway?).

BTW got in my Lapua brass yesterday. That stuff is *sooo* nice to work with... :)

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 04:34:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.139)

Gooch;

in reading the last issue of Minute of Angle you talked about the
Milldot Master. i did not see any place to obtain one.
Could you e-mail where to get one. Thanks

All:

I have enjoyed the site greatly and have found alot of good info.

Does anyone have any info on (night force or light force lighted
reticle scopes) i beleive they are out of Kent Wa.

so long for now, gary
g fowler <tucowgrl@cyberhighway.net>
rupert, id, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 05:45:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.161.38.152)

Tom,

Bet its your powder measures....... My RCBS (Old Green is twenty five or thirty years old and still works fine) with Varget and lots of other extruded powders over the years(LARGE amounts of H-1000 as of late) and throws charges at (+ or - .01 gr) when set up correctly and cycled the same way. Maybe you could have the powder drum Black-T or Robar coated to resolve the problem.

I still individually weigh each charge and trickle up to the exact amount desired, I can't get into that "have to handload FAST" school. I've seen too much slop ammo, busted guns, and faces! from the "Mr McFeeley" school of loading. Hurry-Hurry-Hurry

When you finish handloading for a SVD or Moisen-Nagant please keep us up to date. The data needs to be published for all those fine old rifles floating around out there. SVD's Too!

I thought the article in August'99 T-S just said a lot of nothing regarding the rifles accuracy capabilities, (Hugos article in the May T-S issue addressed the SVD far better) but maybe I just want to see empirical testing: like 5 five shot groups at 100 and 200 yards with chrono data, and not a couple three shot groups to attempt a feeble validation............

If you're really gonna sell it (The SVD system)to me, prove it, and please don't try the PT Barnum approach of "Theres a Sucker Born Every Minute"

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 12:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.204)

Dudes,

I'm not Sniping at/or Flaming "Colatown Tom" or Paskz (The Russian Dudeski),

I just want to see ACCURATE information posted before somebody gets burned buying hyped crap or worse, wore out hyped crap and spending $$$ on reloading equipment and periperals in an attempt to make a silk purse out of Al's ear [Oooops! :-)], I mean a Sheeps ear.

It all works if it connects with the target, regardless of Nationalism and techological pride right?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG WET CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 13:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.33)

Good day, collegues.

Again i must excuse for my rural english. And I can add to this that I am absolutely unfamiliar with abreviations, used in your country. So to me NRA is perhaps what for you TETZ-30 is. Sorry again, don't argument such way, it's is simply beyond our possibilities to understand is it bad or good, that some NRA, or some TETZ-30, or some prairie dogs.. Sorry again, imagine the fact that not all people must be familiar with US circumstances.

I am very glad, that little information I posted here was accepted, and leaded to normal discussion. So, before that nobody has told about sub-1-MOA SVD. I like clarity - it was strange to hear from a proffesional, may be more proffesional that i am myself, so unprofessional tales about how to make SVD from SKS. Or that SVD is a modification of AK. That is like to say, that all we use is a modification of Chinese Black Powder Canon. Is'n it?

Again, I say, SVD is not the most accurate, or most comfortable, or most - anything you wish.. That is foolish to say so on every model we and you use. I must definitely say - SVD is a top weapon in very special category. I like SVD, but to me that is to know every imperfections of that weapon, too. You also know imperfections of all your rifles, from Remington 700 to PSG-1 and R93 - that is a part of sniper skill.

Now to the modifications and improvements. Of course we make some improvements. The problem, of which i have heard here, has a solution.

About counterstand SVD - Mosin rifle. I use a Mosin rifle modification, called SV-5. It is a long story to tell.. And i will not do that. I like Mosin too, because of excelent accuracy. But SV-5 is not usefull in dinamical battle - that is sniper rifle for "hunting" - a long, positional campaign.

So, again - i do not recommend to buy it in US. Probably you can buy only a old one, second hand from some underdeveloped Allakh warior, with sand in gas mechanism and so. I have heard that the price for SVD is in US abnormal. I can tell you a deepest (yet unusable for US) secret - i can buy, for example an NEW, COMPLETE, with scope, mount, case, bag, bayonette knife, 4 mag, all in factory packing SVD for $170. That's not because lack of quallity, that is because of great quantity. So if i had to buy it for $1000+ i will be very angry.

Thank you for attention.

P.S. TETZ-30, mentioned above, for example, stand for Boiler Station Nr. 30, one of the city boiler. That is not a secret service ;)
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Somewheretown, Russia - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 14:03:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

PeteR:

Page 54 of the September TS shows 2 3/4 inch group fired using Soviet 152gr. BT sniping ammunition at 300 yards. I'm not trying to sell the SVD, as the only one I have ever shot didnt shoot very well with the substandard ammunition available. I bought a 700PSS for a bit less money (and a bit less accuracy, at first :) The author, a Mr. Fortier, reports 1 MOA accuracy with Sellier & Bellot 180gr. FMJ as well.

I for one never sell the Russians short on technical matters. As Paskz's post implies, the Russians have a funny way of getting what they want acomplished, acomplished. Just becasue every AK-74 is not a sub MOA weapon system dosent mean they *cant* buld one. All they have to do is decide that it needs to be done and if it is at all within their technical grasp, it usualy happens. How many 14 year-old space stations have *we* kept flying?

I will be happy to report results with loading 7.62x54R in Lapua brass, but it will be for M38 Mosin based "scout" rifles and not the SVD. I dont see one of those in my immediate future.

As for the measure problem...I have an old RCBS measure stuck back somewhere. I suppose I'll try that. If that wont get it, I guess I'll buy a Redding or <shudder> an Autoscale. :)

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 14:05:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.136)

Paskz,

By all means use up some computer bytes and fill us in on the SV-5 system. To use a movie euphamism "Feed Us the info!" You're right about Chinese cannons, they are most humble ancestors to all our favorite toys huh?
Your local options and access to your domestic matchski quality ammo could be a real benefit to all of us here in the USA. Could you do an accuracy test (inch or metric center to center spreads)with various ammos at 100 and 200 Meters and post it here. That would be way cool!

Tom,
Thats exactly what I mean by a single group isn't representative.

Look at the lead photo for this particular article:
http://www.snipercountry.com/WhiteFeather.htm.

The five shot group shown is .344" c.t.c. at 100 yards fired in about 45 seconds from start to finish of the string. Through a (then)out of the box stock Remington 700 Police DM.

Will my rifle do that each and every time, NOPE!
Can I do that kind of shooting on demand? NOPE!
But damn it sure does get your attention doesn't it? ;-)

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG WETTER YET CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 14:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.46)

I am looking for a Receiver and or Barrel for a H&K MSG90 or PSG1 if anone knows where I can get one or has any info on them please E-mail me.

Thanks
Eric <BadAssMstg@Hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 15:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.214.46.36)

Paskz;
Carefull there buddy your broken English is slipping,or maybe you were just lucky in that one paragraph.

Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 17:04:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.34)

Hi all,
Firearms have been receiving some very negative media attention, even here in Germany the media has been very aware of the recent and devastating use of firearms in crimes commited against humanity. I personally find this sort of media attention very disturbing, I as a British National, can clearly recall what happened in the U.K. after Mr Hamilton commited his act of terror in the Town of Dunbliane in Scotland, my memory even streches back as far as the criminal act performed by Mr Ryan in Hungerford. These acts of bloodymindeness forced the British Government to pass laws banning the possesion of Privately owned firearms. This didnt help Miss Jill Dando (R.I.P.) and others who have fallen victim to armed thugs since this law was passed. I now live in Germany, not to escape the English laws on firearms but because after ten years military service I just couldnt and did'nt want to start again in the land of my birth that now seemed so strange to me. I own thirteen firearms, from a .22 walther PPK to a pumpgun, and I shoot them regular either on the ranges or whilst out Hunting.

Who can provide me with some constructive advice on the why's and why not's of the Savage Tactical, in .308 win with a Schmidt & Bender Sniperscope?

My best regards to you all.
Tony.
Tony in Bavaria <toemag@hotmail.com>
Munich, Bavaria, Germany - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 17:16:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.158.32.39)

IM INTERSTED IN BEING A SNIPER
DUSTIN CHEVALIER <DCHEVSFOST@AOL.COM>
FORT WAYNE, IN, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 17:30:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.52)
Paskz - 170.00, be on the next plane for our supply personnel. You do not wish to know what we pay for those suckers! Again, we enjoy the passing of info here and would like to hear your solutions. The Mosin is a most respected rifle and we respect the SVD. Especially the ability to use the Metascope for IR detection without using an active source a the shooters' position. I find the scope uncomfortable to use and has accurate ranging problems past 500, would like to hear your methods for overcoming this problem. Liked the TETZ-30 analogy. It could be Secret Service! :)

"Hold hard guys, or it will be a long night!" Got to go.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 18:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.152)

Good day, collegues.

>By all means use up some computer bytes and fill us in on the SV-5 system.

With great gladness. Although this weapon is very old, it is less known even as SKS. About it existence and qualities not every our sniper knows. My searchings over inet has yielded no results. There is nothing mistical or secret, however, in this rifle. Simpy that is our best western-style rifle.

That is sniper modification of well known Mosin rifle, among russians well-known as "threeliner". As a sniper modification it was developed in 1937. As a sniper modification it has extended and very high-quality barrel, highly custommized stock, with opening for big finger. It weight is about 6,5 Kg. It has detachable magazine for 5 rounds, and fires 7,62 "threeliner" ammo.

In a well known book, wroten by Maj. John Plaster he describes a sniper modification of Mosin with such data:
Cartridge: 7,62x54 Rimmed
Weight: 5,1 Kg
Overall lenght: 122 cm
Barrel lenght: 72,6 cm
Rifling: 4 grooves, 1:10 rt-hand twist
Capacity: 5 rounds, fixed mag
Max rate of fire: 10 RPM
Aimed rate of fire: 3-5 RPM
Scope types: 3,5 PU or 4 PE
Reticle type: Adjustable post

This data is probably for somethig other than SV-5. As i told, it has detachable mag, much heavier, and perhaps longer. On our SV-5 we use excellent soviet 6x optics, german-style reticle. The optics for our rifles was manufactured in 1943, excellently bright and crisp image. On a humorous picture of vietnamese, given in the book we can see something other than SV-5.

I think that SV-5 were produced only at war time, I have not seen any rifles dated later 1945, and any earlier than 1942.

Personal experiences. That is very havy, good balanced and ultra-precise weapon. It is extremely reliable, has superior stock. Accuracy we have not measured, but probably not worse than 0,5 MOA, I think - that is real sniper rifle.

Of course, there is some incomfort in using it. First- it is extremely heavy and long. Second - the blast sound exceeds any other competitors. But that is my choice for accuracy and reliability.

>Could you do an accuracy test..

About mesurements. As i told SVD, when properly used with proper ammo gives 0,9 MOA. If i will have a scaner, i will demonstrate that with great gladness.

Realy, problem with measurement of accuracy of weapon - mainly measurement of quality of the rounds.

>http://www.snipercountry.com/WhiteFeather.htm

Not pointed to me, but i was impressed :) One thing is realy good in US - the freedom for having firearms. Don't loose that - that will be great pity.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Somewheretown, Russia - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 19:15:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Paskz or whatever.

Your statement that we are enemies just verifies my feelings about your countries political aspirations over the last 10 years or so. While many people in this country would believe the theory that Russia/the former USSR is happy to be a 2nd rate political force, many of us retired and active military types don't beleive that for a secondski. Some of us know the history of your country. While our media may portray this country like a bunch of idiots, don't take this for gospel (truth). Right now I don't think your country could win a war against the Arkansas National Guard (State Militia)! By the way, how are you feeding your Army these days? I hear your enlisted men are getting good at growing vegetables.

Believe me Ivan when I say that many USMC and Army snipers still train for the day when they will get a chance to plant a few commies. And also be aware that although in past conflicts where US snipers were behind the power curve this is no longer the case. Although we may not be undefeatable I'll take American know how over what ever your rag tag military can shit any day. You claim that the Dragunov is a fine sniper rifle. You just keep on believing that and remember that our M40A1's and M24's are only accurate to about 500 or 600 yards or so. So snuggle up to about 600 meters or so and get ready to come face to face with 175 grains of screaming american technology.

Remember, Losers talk about thier "best", winners go home and fuck the prom queen. This aint a game.

Kent Gooch
USMC Scout-Sniper

Gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 00:12:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.148)

Does any one have any preliminary loading data for the .300 Remington Ultra mag. I am starting load developement and would like to hear from others who have started work on this new cartrige.

Gary H.
Gary H. <hatherly@perceptionet.com>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 02:26:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.69.199.148)

I have a Brookfield mount experimenting with Leopold and MWG rings on a Leopold M3LR but the standard rings seem high... are there any quality mounts that are lower? Any ideas or experience? Thanks in advance

Jeff in Canada

Jeff W <blackhawk@mb.sympatico.ca>
MB, Canada - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 03:11:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.200.56.222)

Can the Remington 700 pss dm 's magazine be replaced or swapped out with H&S precisions's magazine kit? Is this a good idea ?

keep your powder dry!

jack
jack <beungood@aol..com>
braintree, mass, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 07:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.187)

RE: Inaccurate Powder Measures

According to G. David Tubb (of NRA Highpower fame), the accuracy of a handload is more dependent on the mechanical variations of the individual round (concentricity of the bullet, jacket, bullet-to-rifling, etc.) than on the charge-to-charge consistency of the powder weight.

I believe that he wrote in one article that, in the 40 to 45 grain range, there has to be almost a full grain of variation for the shooter to notice anything.

I have yet to try this and throw my trickler into the river (GAWD!!! I want to!!!), so I cannot speak from personal experience.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 08:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.54)

Gooch: I also saw the comment about being "enemies".However, taken in context with the rest of Paskz's postings I chalked it up to nothing more than misuse of the English language; something that he has allready appologized for.

Afterall, his posts aren't adversarial by their nature or in tone.Perhaps, he was refering to you Americans as "past enemies".I would be inclined to believe if he felt annimosity towards Americans then he wouldn't be bothered to post or contribute here on this predominently "American" web site.See my point?

As far as I'm concered, if the guy is legitimate and is who he says he is, then cut the guy a little slack.By the number of responses to his posts, I'd say the man has injected some much needed new blood and topics of discussion on this Roster that seems to be getting more repetitious as time goes on.

By the way, with your obvious biases towards Russians aside, It's not just the commies anymore.Just take a look around.The world is a much more unstable and dangerous place than it was before the break up of the Soviet Union.

Hell, with the way things are goin' lately, the US military has to be prepared to take on anyone at anytime.I'm sure that doesn't leave your military commanders with a real warm and fuzzy feeling, now does it?

Also, I'm completely jealous of you.Are you trying to tell all of us you had the prom queen all to yourself? Shit, at my high scool prom, I had to stand in line and take a number for my turn.

You're right, this ain't no game...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 11:31:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.82.19)

Good day, collegues.

About suplies. I can you tell more of the current prices, of which our army gets weapon:

AKM-U (Shortened Close-combat assault rifle) Used by stormtroopers and militia $120
Macarov (Semiautomatic Pistol) Used by militia and officers $70
So, as you see SVD is most expensive, and costs $170. It is shipped in quantites of no less then one package, that is 6 systems (rifle, scope, 5 mags, maintain tools and materials, bayonette, carying bag for spare mags, scope and tools, carying strip).

Is US army getting arms for ordinary prices, provided by manufacturers? That's very impressive, I think many people just go have thick fat on army supplies.

When we got some books, dedicated to US army snipers we wonder how much one sniper costs in US. That's simply safes on two legs - binoculars for XXXX, rifle for ZZZZ, scope for YYYY.. Plus shoes, rangefinders, clothing.. As i understand that, with the spotter is about $10.000? Our sniper is equipped on a sum circa $400. Will I perform 10.000/400=25 times worser? Not sure :)

Often is heard critics on Soviet Sniper School. But american, or european doctrine is also not free from disadvantages.

Our doctrine is based on "Industrionalism". What that mean? Sniper is complimentary unit, not a God of War, even in infantry. They are good addition, but not essential one. Look, no war was won or lost because of snipers! No one city freed or occupated! I am not deminshing the role of sniper, a am one of them, but I know my limitation - I will not decide the fate of World. If so, snipers must be mass-employed, must cover actions, taken by infantry first of all. Soviet doctrine not exclude special and separate operations, but that is special case.

That is simple arithmetics, as I mentioned above. I think the sniper doctrine of US was developed in 50's-60's - when a countersniper techniques was not so advanced, and easy aplicable. Now, more than in 50's-60's the RPG, minethrowers, rocket artilery and other thingies are used. You perhaps imagine how works automatic machine-gun style rocketthhrower? So the key of sniper's advantage is slightly lost the significense - now, for example, if there is a susspection, that in that bush sits sniper, troopers simply burst with that hell machine - and 30 m around will be desert. Not this bush, than next.

An illustration to that is current war in Dagestan. Islamists sent big force, well-equiped mercenaries with guarding fanatics in Dagestan Mountains. Most significant advantage against Federals they have in snipers. I have seen there PSG-1 and Barret's, SVD and SV-94.. They was acting in Western style. And what happened? Shit happened. Bloodbath. Our forces used heavy artillery, rocket artilery and air forces, even 3D-explosive bombs - and all that high-cost terrorist army is slaughtered to pieces, not bigger than hamburger. Our snipers acted too, and have many succeses in the war with such a strong (tacticaly) enemy.

Again I say, I do not deminish your perfect school of snipership. I do not deminish snipership, as it is my profession. But on the place of US instructors - there will be better to integrate some principles of our sniper tactics. We, counterside are ver I think, in case of war, all that Sacred Priciples will go to hell, and yours, and ours. Sniper is not a God, he is not a Artist - he is at work.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 12:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Kent Gooch

>Your statement that we are enemies just verifies my feelings

Perhaps we are friends? Then point our common enemy. Probably vegetarians, nudists or The Evil Association of Rabbit Holders, I think. We will not discuss the politics in that conference, you know what I mean.

>While our media may portray this country like a bunch of idiots, don't take this for gospel (truth)

By propoganding such things your media, first of all, is based on the hypotetic statement that listeners are idiots. Why? Why are americans satisfied with lies about not only Russia, but of World itself? And even lies about US? Is it comfortable? Probably, but can cause a lot of problems in future. "Hooray-patriotic coated, dont wash in blood". However I think military personel knows the price of words.

>Right now I don't think your country could win a war against the Arkansas National Guard (State Militia)!

Powerfull interstellar stormtroopers from Arkansas has taken Jupiter and surrounded Saturn. What kind of battles and victories are on the account of this secret Lord Of Universe?

>I hear your enlisted men are getting good at growing vegetables.

Yes, that's mainly true. It states that our soldiers are expirienced agrivulturists, too. What bad of it, another advantage. Smile.

Yes, our army machine is underpowered. Yes our leaders, Moscow leaders I mean are a bunch not of idiots, but traitors and thiefes. But there is many layers of picture, that common people don't know about our country. And that's makes me happy. Look, when the Iron Wall fall, US reputation in our eyes are much more deminshed then our reputation in yours. Lets illustrate: particulary men in US always thinked about Russia, that we drink a gallon of Wodka, there is a lot of snow, that bears are living on the Red Square, and every citizen is KGBist. Nice picture, now changed: Wodka, bears and snow remains still, KGB replaced with mafia. Aha.. Our army.. That's a special case: in uncle Tom's cabins, deep in the Taiga [drinking Wodka, kissing bears, don't forget] we sit near fire in the humorous "shapka-ushanka" with some strange grandmother rifles and guarding Nuclear Bomb #1. Then comes a super man from California, a retired.. for example army-electric and kicks our pitty asses. World saved, press Enter. Nice movie, but somewhere I have seen it many times. Some people, visted our country were encouraged of what they seen. We hide our bears. But we drinked with them wodka - tradition must live.

What we have seen in America? That you see every day. We do not spend our obscured money for dipicting movies about US. But what we have seen real? Don't want even to say anything - but we are not afraid of US, even Arkansas militia. But not underestimating US army, and USMC, of course.

>I'll take American know how over what ever your rag tag military can >shit any day.

Incorrect.

>You just keep on believing that and remember that our M40A1's and >M24's are only accurate to about 500 or 600 yards or
>so.

We are very patient and like to get new knowledge.

>to come face to face with 175 grains of screaming american >technology.

That's pitty. Technology, don't scream! Smile, big and kind smile. We are not underestimating our opponents. We carefully examine your forces and skills, weapons and tactics.

>Remember, Losers talk about thier "best", winners go home and fuck the prom queen.

Calm down, there is nothing happened yet. Falsestart. So there is no Loosers or Winners. Although there is good practice to "fuck the prom queen", in training purposes.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 12:44:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.200.131)

HooRaaaaaa!Gooch.
God Damn Right brother.
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 12:47:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.75)
Good day, Jeff Babineau.

>I also saw the comment about being "enemies".However, taken in
>context with the rest of Paskz's postings I chalked it up to nothing
>more than misuse of the English language; something that he has
>allready appologized for.

Thank you. By stating that we are enemies now, I mean that we can be enemies tommorow. Right tommorow, or at tuesday. Now we are indirect enemies - that mean in political terms, that we have different approaches to the future of World. Too different to say, that we come to compromise.

People are waiting for the war - it is itself the begining of war.

So, about..

>Just take a look around.The world is a much more unstable and dangerous place than it was before the break up of the Soviet Union.

Of course, it is so. That's a simple arithmetics: world was balanced and counterbalanced. When US wants to kick Zanzibar, we say "Don't touch the marvellous Zanzibar, our friend and democratic socialist country". When SU wants to kick Bebezia, US says "The Democratic Bebezia is our best friend, and we don't allow russians to touch the democracy". It was of course, anyway, nice words, but they worked - there was no possibility of generalization of war. Now there exist no counterbalance - and what we can see: lies about democracy, lies about true aims of war, unstabillity and refugees; and more refugees, saving their lifes from the saving operations... I believe in such thing: Americans simply don't know what to do, when they are alone, just like kids. Instead of living in peace in their own country, healing US from many disease the US have they want to explore their kicking possibilities, covering them with very primitive banners, like "humanitarian help", "defend of democracy" and so on. They simply don't know what to do with the Globe.

Personally I am not red-eyed fanatic, I was grown in the middle of Europe, and therefore knew that americans are not animals, even before reforms in Soviet Union. And now I have friends in US, and contact with Americans, living here.

But that does not mean, that I will do nothing i can, when the trouble come.

Remember, from what the disscussion start? From SVD. So, count me as a friend of US, as I cleared to audithory, that that is sniper weapon, not a shotgun, as I have heard many think. A uncommon kind of friend, of course.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 13:33:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Damn Gooch, go girl. Prom Queen, ours was so ugly she looked like a Drag Queen. Al O. wouldn't have even taken a sniff.

Red Dawn, Wolverines, my my, could be an interesting. I want to play!!!!!

Well, waterproof gear smell has not abated! Laid some of it in the sun, glue melted, trashed.

Anyone need a roommate for Carlos II? I am working real hard to get the time off, not looking good but I am trying. Will have to take out a loan to go, have to have two crowns put on the first of the year, $1200 out of pocket. Didn't George Washington have wooden teeth?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 14:14:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.66)

Tony in Bavaria- The acts you refer to didn't force the British government to do anything. They only gave them an excuse to justify their actions to the British subjects.

another Pat
another Pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:00:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

Boltster,

I'll fix the teeth with some J-B weld when ya get up here OKAY! Just got fresh stocks of duct tape and BRAND NEW (unrusted!) black waire too!

Aaaaallll,

THREEEEEEE WEEEEEEEEKKSSS!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG MONSOON CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:17:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.187)

Hey all...
Move is made, but the house is still all boxes; will be unpacking probably until the next move... ;-) Nice to be able to go out the front or back doors and shoot, though... took my daughter out plinking at 2-liters last night... we'll make her into a marksman before too long.

Gooch:
I understand and appreciate your waryiness(sp?) of our new 'comrade', but I look at it this way... play nice, and see what we can learn from him about their tactics, so we can better know 'the enemy'...

Paskz:
Prevyet! Welcome aboard. Although we were historically advarsaries, and 'may' be again in the future, I'd appreciate hearing all we can from you, to see how the 'other side' does it. Question: What sidearm does a Russian sniper carry when in the field? DO you operate in two-man groups as we do, or do you act alone, or in larger groups? Dosvidanya...

Bolt:
Actually, no, George's teeth weren't wooden, they were made out of cow's teeth.

L8R,

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
An itty-bitty place in, TN & VA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.45.10.90)

Jack:

Regarding your question re: replacing Rem. factory detach mag. with the HS kit. I assume you mean replace the entire fp/tg assembly, as well. Will that work? Absolutely. I've done that and am very pleased with the result. It is possible that if you do that, you may need have a little fitting done to the stock. The stock I did it with is an A3 that was already inletted for Rem 700 SA BDL. A little fitting was needed for proper fit.

Anyway, the HS unit is beautifully done and I'm extremely pleased with the way it works. It is stainless steel coated with black teflon, I think.

PeteR:

How as the match? I got the night one coming up this Sat. Did some testing with .308 last Sat. and am loading for the match.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Laboring on Laborday in, GA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:54:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Jeff A,

You're not using the .260 Remington? !! :-0 !!

I'm loading my ammo for The Carlos Hathcock Memorial Shoot right now and agin termahraw, but I literally just ran out of Varget, I Got MK 175's, Horney 178NM's, Berger 175's, GM-210's, GM308UP's

BUT NO VARGET!!!!!!!!

NONE!
NADA!
NYET!
NICHT!
:-(

and ALL the local "purveyors of death" are closed. a Totally MOST BOGUS and HEINOUS situation for the Dudester.

Sooooo.... Its back to prepping even more brass, and staring forlornly out the garage door hoping it will start raining cannisters of Varget here in soo-soggy West Virginny.

Boo-Hoo-Hoo

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SOGGIER YET CITY, By-gAwD, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 17:00:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

Rick,

"It Could be Secret Service?"

Does that mean Paskz KNOWS the identity of the illusive "MASTER SNIPER"? "The imfamous Butcher of Furby"? or the location of Sarges hide?

Speaking of which........................

Sarge,

"It could be Granny?" REALLY - REALLY - LMAO!

Paskz,
I ain't picking on you, just maximizing the use of a REALLY GREAT phrase.

Al,
"It could be Esmeralda" Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

HEEE-HEEE HAA-HAAA HOOO-HOOO
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 17:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

SVD: I have shot a little (maybe 50-60 rounds) out of brand new soviet-made SVD:s made in 1980´s with proper Russian sniping ammo designated specifically for use in SVD. Good points: It is light and eays to carry, it is semi-automatic, so you can defend yourself also at short ranges. It is also accurate enough to drop man-sized targets out to 550 meters (probably even farther, but I just tested it so far due to range restrictions). Minuses: A light rifle kicks for a semi-auto still somewhat, brass flies like from AK, so somebody may see it flying. Scope is not up-to-date with 4X24 lenses. The newer version with 6X36 is not as robust, so 4x24 is the better one. Anyways this rifle is a very good rifle for a spotter and/or sniper riding with the armored convoys, where accurate fire out to only 500 meters is needed. It has been noticed that SVD-accuracy varies quite a lot, these are mass-produced rifles where some samples are very good and some are less than spectacular.

Ideology behind SVD: As our new comrade in arms explained, SVD and snipers in general in Russia are used aggressively within regular AK/PKM-equipped platoons. Most of Russian snipers are what we call sharp shooters. They just shoot a little further a little more accurately than what regular Ak-74 quipped troops can do. They are a basic part in an infantry platoon just like the RPG-7 men are. Nothing special really.

A normal (this is only one version) sniper group consists of one SVD-shooter, one RPG-7 shooter and one PKM-shooter. The idea is to use one of these weapons in such a way as to lure more enemies into an ambush. For example the SVD shooter may shoot only one shot the enemy´s formation and when enemy counterattacks with a platoon or two, the PKM-shooter and RPG-7 man ambush the platoon from it´s flanks and kills many more than what is possible with an SVD.-> As you see, this differs very much from the western way of doing things. Still it may cause very many KIA´s, especially among less educated soldiers. In any case the idea is to maximize losses to the enemy and not to screw around with "1-in-100" chances to hit somebody out to 1000 meters with the first shot. And the Russian army has probably got tenfold the number of people armed with SVD´s than any western army has snipers.-> Quality wise they are not up to snuff, but it doesn´t matter if you have enough of better-than-regular soldiers. The ideology is almost opposite to the western way of thinking.

In any case Russian army has always counted on bringing much more equipment and men to the battlefield, even if they are not state-of-the art. The main reason behind this is the fact that in Russia it has never, and it probably never will, matter how many Russian soldiers will die, as long as the objectives are met.-> USA invests in billion dollar stelath bombers because lost soldiers are bad publicity (of course stealth tehcnology makes waging war also easier) but in Russia they would probably buy with the same money 250 T-90´s tanks or 50 pieces Kamov-50 attack helicopters. When body backs don´t count for much, you do not need that much high tech. Instead you buy lots of mediocre tehcnology which can, and very often will, tear apart the tehcnologically more advanced army. Just ask the Germans about this.

SVD vs. Mosin-Nagant. Mosin-Nagant is an accurate rifle but not so much as the newest toys on the market. Still M-S rifles are very robust and can take a beating. I would take an SVD over a Mosin-Nagant. Both are reasonably accurate, but with an SVD you can defend yourself better in case of an emergency.

Anti-sniping activities Russin-style: As was the case in the last conflict between Finland and SU, their military doctrine has always been quite like the US way: Anything that threatens you, you just blow it away, no matter what the cost. Their army can afford to shoot 20 pieces of 155 mm heavy artillery rounds to any spot, that they even suspect of having snipers close by. Problem is that you can not shoot 360 degrees around you all the time. According to our sniper training in Finland, you shoot one or two rounds from the same spot and depending on the situation you move to another place or you leave the whole AO quickly. Precisely because a big army will waste it´s ammo all around. Actually that is a good thing for us, as this will strain the supply routes of the attacking army all the time. -> You can exchange one rifle round to 20 heavy artillery shells and one dead officer. Pretty good deal, I think.

-> SVD is not as accurate as a McBros or H-S tactical rifle but it is not designed to be that. For the price of 1 McBros you can buy 20-30 SVD´s. In the end the winning party is not that clear anymore. I do not like SVD, but I do not disregard it, as it is very usefull tool in it´s niche in the Russian army.

Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 18:07:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.16)

Anyone got any experience with the Steyr SSG rifles. I found a couple of these in .308 and .223., 20 inch and 26 inch barrels are available. They even have some kind of Swarksi 10X scopes with the German Post style of reticle. They are new. Scope is a BDC model, and is adjustable to 800 meters. Rings are Steyr.

Price is $1995, scope included. Any comments are welcome.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 19:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.46)

Get some Gooch! It's fine to be on a freindly basis when everyone is freindly. I thought I was the only one who caught the threat. The Russian government are a bunch of jerkoffs who take advantage of any situation they can and then ask Uncle Sugar for help when they need it. Can you say International Space Station. If you offer a threat, dont be suprised if it's answered. We are not diplomats who will bend over to please. We are American Citizens from "the land of the free and the home of the brave". Take heed.
Dave
Mr. Big <dbiggers@earthlink.net>
Ft. Worth, Texas, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 19:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.164.13)
To S(I) Paskz,
About a year or so ago, Mr. Gooch was kind enough to point the way to a Russian web page that featured an article about a new Russian Sniper Rifle called the SV-98. I still have a picture of this rifle somewhere on my hard drive, and could post it if needed. Do you have any experience with this rifle?

To any who are interested in info about the 7.62 x 54 R.
Finland M.N. Rifles are some of my favorites. and I have spent some time testing various military and handloads. The quality of the stuff varies widely, but I have some Bulgarian yellow tip stuff that is as good as anything ever put out by Lake City. The bullet is about 183 gr Boat tail, and chrono out at 2625 FPS. with less than 10 fps S.D. It will do MOA out of an old Tikka M-39 that uses brass washers for bedding fit between the action and stock. This same rifle will do .75 MOA with handloads. No magic involved there either, just 174 Gr. Sierra Matchkings (.311) and IMR-4895 in Lapua cases, loaded to 2625 FPS.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 20:19:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Guys I need some help with this REAL FAST as I plan on doing SOMETHING about this TOMORROW!!!
Sarge's old eyes are just to the point where he doesn't do to well with open sights! Read he's having trouble hitting the broad side of a barn at a 100 yds with open AR sights! SO he needs to put SOME kind of scope on this thing. Now for the problem! This is a FIXED carry handle A2. I have looked in SGN at all the various types of scope/mount combinations and I just need some help on which way to go. J&G sells a Delta style cheek piece, 3x9x40 rubber armoured Delta style scope and the Leatherwood mount for right at $100. OR They also sell the Chinese knock-off of the Colt 4X for about $40. NOW since I have NO intention of using this rifle for competition, long range shooting or much of anything past 200-300 yds. Help me out with some recommendations here guys HELP!!! Please e-mail I'll get answers quicker that way!!!

Pete - granny hasn't shown her face since then! HOWEVER SOMEBODY laced the range road last week-end with ROOFING NAILS!! I was one of eight I KNOW FOR SURE that lost tires due to punctures, fortunately I was only going 40 mph when mine went BANG and I DO mean BANG - both side walls TOTALLY SEPARATED!!

Gooch - you go boy!!! I spend 20 years of my life protecting our country against those Communist SOB's and they can preach peace til the cows come home! Until they COMPLETELY DESTORY ALL there nuclear capability I DON'T TRUST THEM FOR S--T!!! Some of you'all out there are old enough to remember a little "mobile missle launcher" called CUBA!!

A gentleman philosopher Santana said it best - "Those that do not learn from history are condemed to repeat it!"

Old Southern saying - "Save your Confederate money boys the South WILL rise again!"

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 21:14:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.66)

PeteR:

Truth is I may (or may not) shoot .308 at the match. It did well last Sat., but it's the first time with it since the "facelift". Got slightly compulsive that night and prepped/started loading for it as well as .260. Will have both ready , but still don't know which to take. Hell, I'm being more wishy-washy than an obsessive-compulsive geriatric with accelerated Alzheimer's tottin' three visa cards at the worlds largest flea market. I get that way.

Also handled a real beauty of a rifle: Dakota action, Lone Wolfe tactical stock, K&P barrell.. A repeater chambered for 6 BR. Incredible shooter. Built by Dakota. I think they're considering marketing some sort of tactical pkg. Don't really know. It was topped off with one of the new Lightforce tactical scopes. Major wood. Beautiful.

I want to test Varget with the 142 MK's in .260. If that works, then it's more Varget. It does well with Berger 140 vlds in .260, and very well with 175 MK's in .308. The .308 loves N140. I digress.

Interesting... this exchange with the Russian.

Once again, I say, SC is the best website, period.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 22:07:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Ivan, I am glad you think the Drag A Piece of Crap is a fine sniper rifle. Makes life more pleasant for the good guys, us. Seriously that is no better than a M1 Garand for long range scope work. Just stay in Russia and your army wont find out how good are technology is.

Gooch see you in a few weeks. With loads of the slings I hope.

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 22:58:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.134)

Ivan, I forgot something. Your country is so corrupt that when I adopted my youngest from Ukraine, I had to pay the Russian Government Officials Off, one by one so they would let her out of the Country. She was starving ina concentration type "Childrens Home" She had a 7lbs7oz. birth weight and you F'ss did not feed her, so she weighed 13lbs at 2 years old. I know what I hear about your Government is true. They suck! Guys these wonderful Ivans let the kids starve until about two years old and then they send them close enough to the Chernobol that Cancer does the rest. Sorry Ivan I dont like your country. I like it only slightly more than the folks from Ukraine do.

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:06:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.134)

Sarge: I'm a little disappointed by opinion of our Russian visitor here on the Duty Roster.

As a former member of the military, I can understand a certain amount of gaurded caution in welcoming in a former adversary into the NATO "fold".

Heck, for what it's worth I think that it's only normal to feel that way considering that the NATO - Russian relationship has been strained recently over the events in Kosovo.

However, as a council member of this fine web site, your comments show a certain amount of contempt for foreign (non-American) visitors.

I would like to think that as a council member you would welcome this guy as a respected member of the sniper community (if his claims of being a sniper are legitimate) whose input on Soviet-Russian sniper doctrine would be very much welcome here.

What I would like to know is if your comments are yours alone, or do they represent those of Sniper Country and its council members ? *

Shit man, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion and free to express it however you please.I certainly don't want to say that you, or anyone else for that matter, shouldn't.

Over the past 2 years on this site of heard all of the "play nice" and "maintaining the professional integrity of this site" rhetoric that I can remember.I'm willing to buy into this providing that these standards are applied equally to everyone.

It strikes me as rather odd that the professionalism of certain contributors to this site all of a sudden went out the back door when the new kid from the other side of town wants to come play in the Sniper Country sand box.

I might be taking your comment the wrong way.I certainly hope that is the case.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:29:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.95.27)

Mr Paskz does appear to be sending us his messages from the Ukrane.
His web host is: zebra.carrier.kiev.ua
It makes for an interesting Duty Roster!

Out
mike <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:29:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Greetings,
I got a queation for anybody that can help.
A few years ago I bought a used M1A. It came with
500 rounds. The ammo has 144grn FMJ-BT with a steel
core. The cases have a " ZV " head stamp. Berdan primed.
It is also corrosive. This stuff shoot nice. Any one know
where it is from?
Thanks,
Terry
Terry Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:39:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.95)
Hey guys, lets not start a war over this "Russian sniper" thing.
I humped a '60 for three and a half years (read- sniper bait)
The time that I worked for Uncle Sam all I was taught was to hate "Ivan". Didnt work. I can respect any true solder no matter what his flag. My unit once put on a live-fire demo for some Warsaw Pact
brass. My CO told us to "Be polite, but you dont have to be nice"
We were just that. The demonstration went great. I ran about 5000
rounds through my gun. Be advised I was not emplaced, but moving with
the rest of the platoon. At the end a Polish Major asked if I thought
the U.S. could win a conventional war against the 'Pact. I just
smiled,lit a Marlboro, patted my MG and said "Yep"

Strike Fear,
Glenn
Terry Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 00:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.95)

I've been competing in "Tactical Matches" for some time with a .308 Win. model 70 straight out of the box. Handloads are performing better than Fed GM 168's. 42.7 grs of Viht N-150 in Fed brass trimmed .005 less than max. Sierra 168 BTHP match-molyed. BR-2's perform better than Fed 210M seating bullet
to the lands. Neck sized with RCBS ,seated with RCBS comp. seater.
Groups of 1 1/2inch @ 300yds are common. Scope is Leupold 6.5-20x40mm AO/EFR with BAER Custom tapered bases(from LIGHTFORCE) and Simmons 4x4 rings lapped for 100% contact. The guys with "built" guns really hate it when I'm smiling as I leave the firing line.
This load data is not a max load but should still be worked up from a lesser charge . A lot of range time was spent to find a "magical" load and this from a FACTORY gun.
CS Waldon <ICEMAN-18@webtv.net>
Warner Robins, GA., USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 01:01:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.96)
To Hexa, and Sarge:
Here are some pearls of wisdom from a great U.S. President, Abe Lincoln.
"I can always make more Generals. It's HORSES that are expensive!"
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 01:22:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
Droz or whatever your name is;

I read all your posts and am glad you are here, but as I re-read your first post, you were threatening American snipers on this site that they will meet your bullet on a gray morning or something like that. Well, first of all, on that gray morning, you will be laying in youre hide, while 2 americans watch you through thermal binoculars. Then, one of them reaches for a radio, and sends a message for a guided missle on your position. all of a sudden you get a nuclear warhead right up your ass, because america doesnt take shit from 3rd world punks. I know maybe the guided missle was a little much, and the snipers could have shot you, but they dont wanna waste thier match grade ammunition on some snot.

That being aside, I personally think you are a nice person, but that first post really got some people mad, including me.
I am not a sniper, but I will be. I am not being cocky, but i am determined to be one, and shortly I shall. And it will be you who meets my bullet in the field, and you wil try to move, but realize that you are paralyzed, because i have hit your spine just to out you down so you can feel death come slowly. After I watch you die, i return to my hide, goodbye.
TonyD
CO, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 01:48:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.192.46.31)

Komrades,

A guy at the range told me, yesterday, that a 20 round mag is available for the PSS/DM. Does anyone know a source? How do they perform?

Also, not to seem totally out of touch, but when and where will this upcoming Hathcock event be held? I'm moving back to PA, and the same guy was thinking it will be in that neck of the woods. Never fired in one of these, but it might be fun - for a good cause, anyway. Like the man said, someone has to lose... :-)

Semper Fi!
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Leaving For Good, Texas , USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 02:03:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.34)

Man away from the comp for a bit and look at all I miss.

Ok I cannot believe this did not come up on the assault rifle bit.
Evidently most of you havnt done much hunting in the woods. Number one reason I wouldnt put my life behind a .223 is the fact you have to shoot thru brush or even grass that light little bullet is going to go god only knows where. and if you have to shoot thru something. your screwed. you like em carry em not for me. IM with B rogers Ill take a accurate bolt rifle and a good dependable shotgun for backup.I am not worried about extreme accuracy out of a backup gun only enough to get my ass safely back home. and as far as someone trying to Unjam a gun while being shot at. YOu have to be kidding me..last thing Id want to be doing. Wake up real world real bullets with real people wanting to take your head off.

As far as the Russian goes yep were still enemies nothing wrong with that being brought up,,but also nothing wrong with "warriors" being friendly during Peace time. Lest we forget some allied troops singing Christmas Songs with Germans, in the middle of a war on the field of battle?
The russian was Rightfully Defending his country, we as Americans Dont know shit about what really is happening in Russia or any other country for that matter, our gov feeds us full of lies,,especially the Troops..last thing you want is a soldier second guessing weather or not to kill the guy in front of him.
However on the Corrupt Russian government taking bribes and ours being straight. Did I miss something Or What was it China That gave to the Democratic National Party.
Gooch I appreciate your Patriotism, although in this case I think you were a little hasty to jump the gun.
BUT!!! If we go to war with Russia I am a American and Harbor no good feelings Twords any other country and Will gladley take up arms against them And I will side of course with my fellow Americans and will not hesitate one bit.

Yol Bolson
Partison

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 02:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.71)

Jeff if you feel I was a bit abrupt about MY own personal feelings for our Russian visitor you are correct! Since they are MY PERSONAL feelings I don't need to explain but I will! I don't know if YOU where shot at by their (meaning the Russians) allies. I don't know if YOUR friends where killed by their allies but I was and mine where!! I agree that it is not the individual soldier but the government and commaders that make these decisions! However it doesn't mean that I have to like it! This is one of the greatest advantages the American military had, and still has, over the Russian military, every individual AMERICAN soldier thinks for himself! We are taught how to think and act and lead, if necessary, on the battlefield not just how to do what our commander tells us! But I digress, lets just say to many bullets and not enough years! Maybe in another 10 to 15 years I MIGHT be able to have a "meaningful conversation" with a Russian and a Vietnamese but 'til then ....my feelings are mine and do NOT reflect the opinions of Sniper Country or any other member of the Sniper Country staff!!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 03:25:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.198)

Aye; Tis a dream somewhere I had that all good and great riflemen are brothers in a sense. It is the Governments that engineer their taking shots on grey dawns at each other. Ideals misspoken promises and other foolish acts are the principle cause of our taking each other for targets.
Perhaps during times of peace we riflemen should take a rest from firing verbal cybershots lest we do not know for sure who our next enemy will be or who the true enemy was in the first place. Awesome indeed is our technology that fine tunes our ability to locate and destroy but a small little computer chip bug threatens to bring us to our knees. There is no chip in that SVD! I'd venture to guess the machine that turned it out has none either. What other chip defects lurk in our hi tech weapons that threaten us when the the "CHIPS" are down? Let us pray that grey dawn never comes but it lurks there just the same! The Soldiers of Mother Russia and the People are not the government of the Communist U.S.S.R. as "we the people" of the United States are not the Bureau's that inflict a form of tyranny upon this country. We should keep that in mind when dealing with those such as Mr. Paskz it seems to me. IT is the duty of all right thinking riflemen to remain a threat to tyranny anywhere they see it. Their very presence may the be only deterrent left in this Hi-tech world to total control. Who thinks our government told us the truth about the cold war 10% of the time? Who thinks we understood the enemy we all thought existed behind the barbed wire or they us? Before it is closed again to us all lets get all the truth we can! No chips (computers)in my rifle either Mr. Paskz and there never will be!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 04:23:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bill B:

Two words on SSGs, the most damning words I can think to utter about a rifle:

They.

Break.

Specificaly, they break trigger guards and magazines and crack stocks, regularly. The best group I have ever fired off a bench (3/8" @ 100 yards) was with an SSG PII w/ Zeiss 10x scope, but then it seemed for a while there that ever SSG or Cycolac-stocked Hunter we sold came back broken within a year or two, and that was just with deer hunters. Perhaps their plastics have improved in the last decade or so (the Scout seems to be made of better stuff) but even by late '80s standards the plastics technology used by Steyr was primitive. Tonka had better plastics. The poor metal/plastic fit in the stock lead to the brittle stock being battered and cracking. When the trigger guards break it screws with the fire control system, disabling the rifle. Sometimes the magazines just disintegrate. This is based on a relatively small sample, but they failed with striking regularity by any measure. I understand that the Aussies and several other countries put the SSG head to head with other rifles (the certainly could not have been more accurate) and it consistantly lost. I have never read just why other rifles were selected but I have my suspicions...

As for Russian doctrine, it seems to me that the Russian concept of sniper employment has more in common with the Designated Marksman model rather than what we would rever to as "sniping" in the west.
Also, the Russian model is primarily oriented towards total warfare of the mechanized kind. Note Paszk's mention of the recent Chechen battle, where the Russians did what the Russians do best: demolish grid squares and kill everything in them in a very noisy fashion. Perfect environment to employ a lot of DMs, not that good place to creep around with a bolt gun. However, The western model would seem to me much more flexible in the context of limited war, which is the sort that we seem to find ourselves actualy fighting. The Somalia operation was a mess, with people given foolish asignments and then not being given the tools to do them with. Yet, no matter how bad things got, MLRSing downtown Mogidishu was not a viable option for us, period. The Secretary General would not be amused. "One shot, one Somali"? Works for me. We realy operate in different worlds, politicaly.

As for this pissing contest between our resident snipers...I'm glad that such warriors reside with our armed forces and the Russian people should be equaly satisfed. However, Im sure glad Gooch dosent work for the State Department. :)

And as for US vs Russia in a knock-down, drag-out war...Its hard to say. The closest thing to the Russians we have ever fought was the Chinese in Korea. Chinese doctrine was essentialy one of betting that we could not kill them fast enough before they could overrun our positions. They bet wrong. Once we actualy got a decent amount of equipment (especialy artillery) and people on the ground and got Americas vast logistical capabilities in motion, the Chinese found that we could indeed kill them fast enough. The result: stalemate. At that point China had an industrial base a fraction of the size of Americas and thus could not do much about it. Russia has an enourmous potential for industrial production, but at moment it is degraded. Then again, poor backward Russia managed to produce the vast amount of material required to crush the Germans, in spite of Stalins idiocy and Germanys nominal technical superiority. As I said before, the Russians have a way of solving problems when they realy have to.

Then again again, the only time the Russians have ever fought anybody similar to us was against the Germans, who managed to maintain a large kill-to-loss margin over the Russians all the way to Berlin. Germany is a rather small country with limited resources. The US is neither and could sustain much higher levels of production that the Germans ever could.

So here we are gentlemen: Paszk, how would you like to refight the Great Patriotic War against a Germany with limitless natural resources and several times the population? Gooch, how would you like to take on the Chinese at Chosin Resivoir, only this time the Chinese are equiped almost as well as we are and have enough tube artillery to level entire mountain ranges? Warriors though you both might be, I hope to hell you both say "no".

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown , SC, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 04:49:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.241)

Gentlemen, i have posted on your site before and have generally been pleased with the info i have received from this forum. However i have noticed that there are a lot of little wanna be's out there especially chickmagnet. Now there is nothing wrong with wanting info about sniping, i do it myself. But when you talk the talk and have not walked the walk you are pretending to be something you are not. I have said it before, I am a grunt (0341) not a sniper, but i am also on recruiting duty so if you kiddies think you want to be a sniper, e mail me and i will:
1. probably disqualify you for one reason or another
2. do the paper work so you can enlist and get on with your dream

Semper Fi

Frank F <Frank0848@aol.com>
CO, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 04:59:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.76)

To all,

I have a few questions.
1. First what's the difference between the Remington 700PSS and the 700LTR?
2. How do they differ from the standard 700 models?
3. What does PSS stand for?
4. How come I can't find them on the Remington web site?
5. Where can Find these models on the web?
6. How much are they going for NIB?
7. Are they considered a "Hunting Rifle" or does it take special paperwork to purchase?

Thanks for you guys time,

Wallace <sgtwallace@hotmail.com>
APO, AE, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 05:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.157.54.144)

Tony (chickmagnet): your comment, "because america doesnt take shit from 3rd world punks". Very, very interesting. I'm just wondering where you've been for,oh perhaps, the last 30 odd years.I've got only 3 words for ya, (1) Cuba (Bay of Pigs), (2) Vietnam, and (3) Somolia.Are those the 3rd world nations you were refering to ?

Sarge: Hey man, like I said, you're entitled to your own opinion.If we all harboured ill will towards nations for what has happened in the past, we wouldn't be able to get along with anyone including the British, Spanish, American Southerners, Italians, Germans, Japanese, and the list goes on and on ...

I just don't want to see this site degraded to the point where redneck attitudes prevail and intollerance of others based on ethnic and cultural backgrounds is the norm.

You can hardly blame one man for what his former nation (Soviet Union) has done over the last half century.You don't have to insult the man just because you despise what the USSR stood for.

I don't want this to become another one of the legendary Sniper Country pissing contests that frequent from time to time.I just think this guy is getting a raw deal, and I don't mind standing up to say so.

For the record, I believe it is stated that he lives in the Ukraine, which I'm lead to believe is now an independent nation after the break up of the USSR.

Bill R: AMEN ! I could not have said it better myself. I believe you are right.

Have a good day...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 10:41:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.96.8)

Dudes,

Remember the shitstorm started with Marco Plug????????? And he turned out to be a pretty good guy.

Sometimes I believe a pride in ones country by the average person causes us to say things a little stronger than they need to be said.
Other times it is the voices from past experiences and the loss of family, friends, or comrades in arms. This has been expressed very well as of late and is both saddening and humbling to hear.

Don't kill the messenger, the leaders are to fault for the ills of the world.

I for one would hate to be thought of as being labeled in the image of our current lying, perjuring, spineless, cheat on the spouses, sell out the country, scumbag, bottom feeding US politicians.

But then again, take up a war with the USA, or kill its citizens, and I would be willing to assist in expediting either sudden cardiac arrest through blood loss, or CNS collapse through a well placed projectile.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 11:46:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.21)

It never ceases to amaze me how petty this sight becomes on the weekend.

During the week we can discuss shooting and sniper related maters in an adult and dignified manner but on the weekend it gets really pathetic.

I’m proud to be an american where at lease I know I’m free (regardless of what my government can legally do to me)

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 15:12:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Good day, Leslie

>What sidearm does a Russian sniper carry when in the field? DO you operate in two-
>man groups as we do, or do you act alone, or in larger groups? Dosvidanya...

As our weapon and doctrine is differen than in US, generally we we do not need to carry sidearms. I mean that our snipers act often in group, equiped with RPK, AK and other fast and dirty machinery. Also, as SVD is semiauto, is relatively light and good balanced for any position, we can use it in selfdefence, too.

The only one from a class of sidearms we use are grenades. Mercenaries and volounteers wear constantly one grenade, nicknamed "Home" or sometimes "Elevator", for selfdestruction. You know, sniper can't make a long carrier as POW, so that device helps from unnecessary suffering.

About two-man and one man operations. Yes, of course. When it comes to guerillia war, or long-lasting position campaign that is good reason to behave so. This practice was deminished in Soviet Union after war, but now there is many reasons to train our specialist in that way too.

Now in Russia there exists many new sniper rifles: That is "Boltcutter" SVS (silent subsonic), SV-94 (Heavy Sniping Rifle), newly designed SV-98, based on sport models and offering precise bolt action and excelent accuracy. There exists many good prototypes, as KS 23 and 22; also SVD is avaible now in several variations.

Sniper theme is now reborning in our country. Many young people is very interested in that theme.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 16:00:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Rick

>Especially the ability to use the Metascope for IR detection without using an >active source a the shooters' position.

About scopes. There exists other scopes. The problem you have told we expirienced too. But there exists PSO-style 6x an 8x scopes, also with IR-det. I, personaly prefer 6x optics. Try to install other scopes. PSO is good, but too universal. Install the scope, suitable for your tasks - that is the best solution for any rifle.

SVD, like any other weapon must have a reflection of its master, a soul. As really right someone wrote (sorry, I forgot who) SVD is mass-production kid. So at first: select really good one, check perhaps 5, or 10 - how much you want to spend time on it. After some test you can find a really good rifle. What to do with others? They are not bad by design, but we will not spend our time finding and fixing problems. Our armory will do that - at least at the peacetime.

Then the time for customisation begin, limited only by your fantasy. I have seen such overtuned device, that nobody can say is it new weapon or old one:

Stock - old completely cutt off, replaced with a custom wooden construction. Installed two wave Hg-resonator breaks.
Barrel - hardened with 3 special planks, of steel, Mg and Ti - for more stability, and polished with scratches for better cooling
Muzzle - muzzle break, very impressive self-made construction
(Sorry, don't know how that part is in English; something eh.. like a pistol.. eh, you know, the trigger is near it, and you hold the rifle with you right hand.. ehh..) - so it is completely remaked, like those at sporting pistols.
Optics - 8x

That was fanatic rifle. His master also was fanatic. But weapon was excelent.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 16:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Steve.

About SV-98

>Do you have any experience with this rifle?

No, but i wish. I will use any possibilities.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:23:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day,Mike

>Ivan, I forgot something.

I am not Ivan. I am not a part of Government. You have to pay money to _Russians, when you has adopted child from _Ukraine (?). Chernobil is situated in Ukraine.

And I will pay a special attention for naftaline-filled memories: I am not communist, and never was one of them.

>I know what I hear about your Government is true. They suck!

They suck and suck and suck. You are right, bloody right. But I know that this government is feed on US money. So, looking for those suckers, who caused entire folk to live in starvation, probably begin the search in US.

>Ivan I dont like your country.

If everyone will like my country, I will move to US.

Right now, as some ip-explorer mentioned I am in Kiev.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:25:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Mike

>Mr Paskz does appear to be sending us his messages from the Ukrane.
>His web host is: zebra.carrier.kiev.ua

And now? God blesses miracle! God bless you and me!
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Glenn.

>At the end a Polish Major asked if I thought
>the U.S. could win a conventional war against the 'Pact. I just
>smiled,lit a Marlboro, patted my MG and said "Yep"

When it comes to humor, may I tell you anecdote? Old one, may be you don't have heard it.

So, US military representatives on the Russian nuclear submarine. Our commander shout: "who is that sucker, who throws boot on the control panel?". Nobody answers. "Who throws boots on panel?" American representative: "Our american discipline, we in US.." Commander: "Shoud up! There is no US more! Who throwed boots on panel?"

So anecdots are anecdots. That will be great sorrow for entire humanity IF (replace with WHEN, if you like) the war begins.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:27:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Tony.

>you will be laying in youre hide, while 2 americans watch you through thermal >binoculars. Then, one of them reaches for a radio, and sends a message for a guided >missle on your position. all of a sudden you get a nuclear warhead right up your ass, >because

So, Tony until you are not sniper, please take advise - grow older. Nobody needs teenagers on battlefield.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, B. Rogers.

>There is no chip in that SVD!

Computers sucks. All that talking about the high tech and objective weapon is scrap. I believe that in the mud and dirt of battlefield it will break after two minutes. Those, who pretend to make weapon must know what war is.

>No chips (computers)in my rifle either Mr. Paskz and there never will be!

Yes!!!
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:29:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Tom Simpson.

>Warriors though you both might be, I hope to hell you both say "no".

I say "no", and know that Kent Gooch, and other thinking people says "no" too. True patriots know, what the war is, and that is not the best we can make. The best is to drink porto on the seabeach at night and smoke a pipe.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:30:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Jeff Babineau, your use of the phrase "redneck attitudes" is itself a form of bigotry. Redneck is a term for people who farm or ranch, or otherwise make a living outdoors. There is no reason to ASSume that they harbor any more prejudice towards other people than anybody else. Sure, right now, it is politically correct to villainize "rednecks" and shooters and a select few others. But for you to try to preach understanding, given the recent posts on SC with the Russian fellow, and utilize the above phrase, is hypocrisy. Otherwise, I think you said some good things.

Another thing: Why is it that every time a nutcase shoots up a place and persons, we shooters cringe and get ready to have our rights and possessions condemned and criticized? Okay, we are now Pavlov's dogs of a sort (hey, a Russian reference!), and the media blasts us, as a group, after every such incident. But why do we react like that? Do those of us who drive cars cringe and get prepared to go underground when some a-hole kills some folks in a D.U.I. collision? Do we men start fearing for our private hardware when some s.o.b. rapes yet another woman? Hell no. F'ing hell no!! Why? Because the sh*theads that did the crime are guilty, not the rest of us, who just might have something in common with the bad guys. Like genitals, cars, or firearms. So let's stop playing Chicken Little if and when another loser goes off. Bad things happen, but it's not the fault of anybody but the perpetrator. Stand proud. Fight the good fight. Tell the truth, and God damn the liars and cowards wherever they are.

Lastly, can any long-suffering (and much admired!) ballistic software gurus out there provide a trajectory profile for .308 Win. Supreme Match (168 gr. MK) out of a Rem. 700VSSF (26" bbl) at sea-level, 80 degrees (or whatever is "normal")? The ammo box lists the following data, based on a 200 yard zero: 100/+2.1", 250/-3.4", 300/-8.7", 400/-25.1", and 500/-50.7". I need the come-ups for all the way out to 1,000 yards for an upcoming long range tac match. And would I be better off with a 300 yard zero?

THANK YOU. God bless the USA.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 17:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.49.73)

HOLD YOUR HORSES!!

I know I'm a day or two late, but still.  Gentlemen, don't you think some of you are being a bit harsh and unfair towards Paskz?  Remember, this IS an INTERNATIONAL site, despite the fact that most of you are from the US.  Including those half-wild Americans just north of you, like Jeff B. :-)

Please gentlemen, be civil, even in your differences.  Tackle the issue, not the man.  How many of YOU want to be held accountable for the actions of that great illustrious ass... I mean leader of yours?

Some of you take Paskz on because his people and their allies "recently" fired at you and your friends.  Fair enough.  Why then is Torsten so welcome on this site?  (And PLEASE don't attack him now, he IS welcome!)  Did not his people and their allies kill many more of your people?  Or is it becuase YOU were not there and involved?  Forgotten?

Maybe it is time some of you go watch "Saving Private Ryan" again.

Go now, and play nice, boys and girls.  And don't break each other's toys.

Marius

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 19:23:14 (ZULU)

Hello Mr.. (no) comrade(no., no..) a colleague (Yes) S(I) Paskz
with all vodka and ushanka (or I am wrong, because in Ukraine the ushanka is not popular anymore?).LOL
Anyway, today in LA times (to paraphrase the russian: for what(how much) i bought for same i sell) I have read the article about blown up pieces of chechen terrorrists "came back togehter" and once again operate in Dagestan. Which again showed everybody that not only Russian goverment sucks, the generals also ...... It is very simple to bomb and send some rockets to very well designated target in clear view, it is harder to fight with moving and organised targets (especially if you don't want to kill civilians). For that you need snipers (and a lot of them). The tactics of the city fight is different then total fight in all out conflict (it is costly to use ...a Uragan or Typhun (if I am not wrong))on own city (village).
Take care. Do not forget to put yellow and blue or blue and yellow cammo outside. LOL.
P.S. Your special ammo is white tip or not?
HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 19:39:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)
Thanks Doc for the reply re: the Remington parts I need (frank)
FRANK <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, or, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 20:04:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.105)
Paskz, If you train in the manner that you answer the posts I am of the impression that you at the very least have exceptional organizational skills. Do you address the SC site from your home or another place? TNX KI7AK
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
coos bay, or, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 20:34:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.107)
All--

I've gone back and read some of the old posts and "HOT TIPS" and still have some questions. I'm LE, non-sniper, maybe interested if I could ever learn to shoot a rifle straight beyond 100 yds. Got a buddy who passed, then taught at SOTIC so I might be able to learn a few things.

Here are my questions. I have one of those Ruuuuug... so despised here in 30-06, it seems pretty good to me, but I take it it isn't going to be really reliable (ie-repeatable) passed 100 yds. So, my other option is an AR10-A4. I love the AR, I've seen problems with reliability posted, but with the cheap, nasty ammo I have fed it, in an attempt to shoot better, it has never failed. I only use Armalite modified mags so maybe that's the difference. Anyone know what to expect at further ranges with this rifle (L&S 3.5-10*40 scope with mil dot)? I've also switched to Rem 168 Match ammo. If it isn't particularly accurate out to 5-600 yds what needs to be done IYHO?

Just some questions from a guy interested in "farther- range" shooting-- won't even dignify myself with long-range... yet.

steve
Steve <skylar.burris@gte.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 21:09:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.254.142.216)

Paskz,
I was only 19 when I made smart-ass remark to the Major.
As I said, I can respect any true soldier under any flag.
If I offended you or any one else, sorry.
In basic training we were shown "motivational films" ie:
Rambo 1,2 and 3, Red Dawn. We had a Drill Sargent that made
us yell "Kill a commie for mommy" instead of our company motto.
At one time I did hate your country and everything about it,
but not now. I realize there are good and bad people everywhere.
There are people in my town that I'll not speak to. They are but
a few, I try not to be a bigot. I hold nothing against a man
because of his skin or even politics. My thoughts are that a-holes
come in all colors, religons and from all parts of the world.
Glenn

Terry Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 21:14:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.144)

Tony from Co.,
I really hate to be the one to bust your bubble, but I think that you have to hold at least the rank of Lieutenant to authorize a Nuclear Strike in any branch of the armed forces that you should choose to apply for. Reflecting on your last post, I wonder if you have the brains or maturity to ever make it that far.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 22:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
Paskz; you strike me as a man with great insight. All the things that have been said were bound to have been said but I see you are above such things. 50 years of Peering accross barbed wire has not added much to our understanding of the great people of Russia. Not to mention when fed by the lies by our leaders and media. I am grateful for this medium to bridge some of those lies with truths. Were you here I'd buy you a Wodka! (it comes in cans here). Or something like it anyway! IF I'm fraternizing with the enemy then so be it guys! They don't get more redneck anti-commie than me! IT may be a bigot's term but I wear it proudly.
Who in the hell doesn't like 30-06 Steve? He needs to meet me outside in 5 minutes while I finish my Wodkoors!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 22:50:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Paskz Good Day, you say that we the US are causing the starvation of the children. Please explain since we are the United States and at last count only had 50 states plus Puerto Rico to fend for. When did we become responsible for Russia?

I agree with wanting no war between our countries or any other, but history has a way of making things not wanted happen. Thats why we/everyone prepares. I hope that if the US is attacked the other sides snipers have something no better than a SVD. I certainly would prefer a M24, M25, M21 or M40 over it anyday.

I welcome you to comment on this site, but when you refer to the US as an enemy that is what you will get. Carry a stick in here and I will try and find a place for it. Be nice and I will be nice. Now if you are from the Ukraine I know you have had the pleasure of the Russian Thumb on you. I saw what they did to your country and how they left you to starve when the USSR broke up. Not pretty. Can you get food or gas yet?

As to wanna be's. This place is for everyone with interest. Get over it. If you want to learn to be a sniper you dont need to be in the Military, go to Storm Mountain, American Shooting Academy, my classes or any of the other schools. It wont cost you four years of your life.

Back to sniper related things

I will have some new slings at Storm for the Carlos Match. A different design that wont be ready until then

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 23:06:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.39)

Good day, collegues.

Just watched a hollywood movie, called "Sniper". Yes, I know, what person is depicted behind it, what a proffesional that was.

But what a sci-fi these hollywood geniuses made? Man with camouflaged face and black T-shirt and bandana in jungle. Man, throwing his rifle barrel-down and then shooting. Nightmare, nothing more to say.

Exists true US movies about snipers?

Of my side I can recommend to seek a posibility to view such Russian movies:

1. "Purgatory" [Chistilische] (word "purgatory" in russian is morphologicaly assotiated with word "washhouse, laundry") - excelent, shocking semi-documental about modern urban stormtroopers. Depicted is real events in 1993-1994. That is not a horror movie, but if you are civilian you must prepare slightly before you will watch it;
2. "Road Check" [Proverka na dorogah] (Road patrol) - near-to-reality movie about WWII
3. "Torpedo Carriers". [Torpedonostsy] - deep allusion on Catch 22
4. "Stalingrad" - The German movie. They know us better.

Especialy I recommend 1 and 2 for those young people, who thinks that they are supernaturals and know all about the subject which united us on this site. 3 has no deal with snipers, but also good war movie. For Russians I also recommended these titles.

Our movies are not so bright, we never used half-world blasts and laser lights, beauties left and right. So for the first moment that will make some discomfort to your perception, they will appear too pale. Later you will enjoy. They will not hurt you, or your personal feelings.

---

Now to more concrete information. There exist nice possibility to compare our skills, knowledges and arms. There is peacefull, open to foreigners sniper competition. Come to us, see us, teach us and probably learn some little from us.

Here is URL: http://www.south.ru/sniper/eng/

That's of course on the next year, becouse they are held from 6 to 10 of September. If the war will wait another year. Smile.

Read information well, as the competition methodics may not be the same as in US. So anybody welcome. But millitary only (incl. special and police forces i.e. FBI, CIA, Customs and other). Watch for details on site.

Also please don't forget to view some usefull info on our cheap, dirty and semifunctioning arms at guns.ru. There is many good links and the site is bilingual.

If you will like this practice I will make some anouncements about events and media related to snipership in Russia. If not, let it be.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 23:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.200.131)

Good day, collegues.

>some of you are being a bit harsh and unfair towards Paskz?

Don't worry, I have excelent benefit before many people, who wants to flame with me. I simply don't know English so good as they - so I don't understand what they want e x a c t l y to say. And I list down to next message.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 00:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Frank.

>Do you address the SC site from your home or another place?

From home. Ballistic data transfer follows...:)

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 00:16:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

PASKZ,

Hit the "sniperski site": http://www.south.ru/sniper/eng/
and the course of fire looked pretty darned interesting, too bad the match started two days ago..........

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF @AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 00:56:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.23)

S(I)Paskz,
You are right on with the comments about the movie "Sniper". Everyone here knows its a horrible movie. I dont believe there are any good Sniper movies. The closest thing to a good sniper movie I ever saw was "Streets of Laredo" a sequel to the movie "Lonesome Dove"
There are however, some good fiction books. One of my favorite's is White Star by James Thayer. I have to warn you though, the villian
is a Russian.
The book "Time to Hunt" by Stephan Hunter is also good. It also features a nasty Russian. All good sniper books feature a Russian bad guy in this country. I think it has something to do with balance. :-)
The Russian web page that Mr. Gooch mentioned, Dec.98 is

http://club.guns.ru/eng/index.htm (It still works)

There is some information that is provided on the accuracy of the SVD in comparison to the accuracy of the MN91\30 sniper rifle can be found at

http://club.guns.ru/eng/dragunov.html

I think the accuracy tests reflect the accuracy of the average 91\30 and the average SVD. I know for sure that a good 91\30 will shoot much better than these test reports indicate. Perhaps the same holds true for the SVD.

Steve <nzato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 01:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

I wonder if carlos hathcock thought he "wasted" 16 years of his life in the Marines?????
Frank F <Frank0848@aol.com>
Co, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 04:04:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.166)
I am looking for information on the "Harris Gunworks" rifle systems. I am particularly interested in their "M-89; Multi-Barrel Combo Sniper Rifle" system.

If you have any information, I would appreciate anything that you could tell me, especially if you or anyone that you know, is using the system at this time.

I look forward to talking too someone real soon about this system.

Sincerely,

Mark D. Cahill
Mark D. Cahill <cahillmd@msn.com>
Escondido, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 05:25:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.254.132.235)

Frank in CO, I don't see where anybody mentions "wasted" in conjunction with military service, except you. And Carlos Hathcock II deserves to have his name spelled with capitals, in proper fashion. May he rest in peace.

May all of us post in peace, for a change! I vote the Russian gentleman the most interesting newcomer since I've been reading SC.

Dee Turner, a public THANKS for the ballistic tables, and ditto to Shane for the referral.

Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 05:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.48.144)

Paskz:

America has of course making war movies for a very long time. However, most of them are not very good and virtually none of them feature sniping with any degree of accuracy. The movie _Sniper_ did nothing to correct this shortcoming. The most annoying feature about this really bad movie was that they actually did interject some real features of modern snipercraft into it, but in so distorted a fashion that it turned the movie from a mere cartoon into something genuinely insulting.

Two American war movies of note: One, _Hamburger Hill_, tells the tale of 101st Airborne Division troops repeatedly trying to take Ap Bia Mountain from the North Vietnamese. No sniping but it is a gritty and underrated little movie about infantry at war.

The second is far more famous: _Saving Private Ryan_ is probably the ultimate American war movie to date and it even has some sniping action, featuring a young southern-born Army sniper with an M1903A4 Springfield that, somehow, sprouts a USMC-pattern Unertl scope whenever a long shot is required. Oh, well. Even at its best Hollywood cant get everything right. :) Oh, and another thing I hate about _Sniper_; that such a bad movie was the first to rip off Carlos Hathcocks fameous through-the-other-snipers-scope shot. That kinda spoiled it for me when the sniper in _Private Ryan_ makes the same shot. If Carlos is going to get ripped off, it should at least be by a class act like Steven Spielberg. :)

Both of these movies share at least one thing in common; they are simple. Simple in that they both follow a common basic pattern, taking the time to introduce the viewer to the characters and humanize them as much as possible, portraying them as the kid next door or your brother. Then, the writer and director set about killing them off as brutally and realistically as possible. At the end, the few survivors (and the audience) are shocked and horrified by the resulting carnage. This is in contrast to some other movies such as _Platoon_ which manage to clutter things up with a lot of real-time philosophizing about the nature of good an evil and other things that people dont have time to do in the middle of a battle. I have always said let the truth of the matter speak for itself. I havent seen many European war movies and no Russian ones, but one German reviewer said that _Private Ryan_ was the war move that Europeans never thought we would be capapble of making. Apparently they though we could only make ever-worsening _Rambo_ sequals. Happy to prove them wrong. :)

As an aside, in case you are unfamiliar with the M1903A4 Springfield featured in the aforementioned _Private Ryan_, it holds the distinction of almost being one of the very best sniper rifles of the Second World War. Chambered for the powerful, ballisticaly efficient .30-06 cartrige and capable of excellent accuracy, it had the potential to be *the* dominant sniper rifle of the war. Unfortunately, it was coupled with the worst scope ever put on any sniper rifle in any country, ever. The Weaver, even by the standards of the day, was a cheap, nasty piece of gear that would fog up on you at the least provocation. Just goes to show you: always put plenty of money and care into selecting your optics.

But, as everyone knows, it was the Brits that had *the* best overall sniper rifle of the war in the No.4 Mk.1(T). Anybody care to argue otherwise? :)

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 05:40:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.220)

Guys...Guys...dial it down a notch. You're going to grow hair on your palms and go blind. TonyTonyTony...give the Angeldust a rest, my man. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. I'm glad to see that you're patriotic like the rest of us but there's nothing to be gained by being rude about it. If you pop off like that in bootcamp your only friends will be the strange MFs no one else will talk to and for goodness' sake, don't allude to anything like that in front of the doctor at MEPS. Even Frank F won't be able to help you then. Killing people is part of the purpose of some people in the military but it's not something you'll relish doing once you pop your cherry. If it is, someone will notice and you won't be doing it for long. Speaking of movies...remember that guy named Francis ("If any of you ratf..ks touch my stuff, I'll kill you.")? Lighten up, all you Francises.

So, uh, what's better...9mm or .45ACP?
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 07:44:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.42)

Steven Speilberg a class act????? He is about as anti-gun as they come. I am sure he loses sleep over web sites like this that discuss the horrors of private gun ownership! Good movie though!
Ding <ding@stev.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 10:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.169.139.29)
Interested in long range target shooting especially with my .50 cal rifle. Need to learn more about reloading as rounds are expensive to ship into the country
Gareth Thompson <Gareth_Thompson@Yahoo.com>
Blenheim, New Zealand - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 11:38:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.55.146.62)
Mat I say that i thought this would be a constructive forum not a Pick on the Russians or any other nationality. You may have your beliefs but some of us just don't care how petty and immature they might be.

I would have thought there would be less bickering, arguing etc. Some of you need to wake up THIS IS THE 90'S
Gareth Thompson <Gareth_Thompson@yahoo.com>
Blenheim, New Zealand - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 12:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.55.146.62)

Ding; are you sure? Spielberg has quite a large gun collection of his own. I have no insight to his personal thoughts about private firearms but I'm not privy to any information about him being that Anti gun.
An American Movie Called "A clear and present Danger" and it's sequal that I can't recall it's name are more interesting to someone who wants to view Americans and their Snipers. Someone help me out with the title of the second one? Sniper is a cartoon unfortunately after the first opening scene. It was done to make Paskz think our snipers are fools who sleep in water and scream at each other in the woods. Who knows, I've heard the Gooch sleeps in bath tubs on occasion but it just a rumor! Don't know if it's his tub or someone else's! Actually I don't need to know the whole truth about that one! We do have real Snipers here whether they sleep in bath tubs or swamp holes or not! Some of them are trained to eat the enemy and they won't get over it on short notice! We're not yet completely sure we want them too. We have Recon people who don't go near water or bath tubs....!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 12:24:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Patkz, I would never say the Russians make bad weapons. If I had to pick up a Russian Made AK47/74 and live with it as a short range battle rifle. I would not feel bad about it. I prefer a M16 but man that AK is truly a battle ready rifle in any mans terms. Your RPG is something else I wouldn't want to be on the bad end of.
Why dont we leave politics out of this and talk long range rifle. Anymore that is what I am about anyway. I never want to pull the trigger on anyone. No glory in it just sorrow. I train and train others in what I hope never happens. Seriously keep dry and warm big guy. Winters coming and no one likes your winters.

Rifles, not working for any companies I would normally say stay away from Harris GunWorks but I hear that one of my old lost friends Lars Larson works there now. If that is the case you will get a great rifle and if he still does 1911's you will get the best. Tell him Mike Miller from his Vacaville Days says high.

If I had to buy another rifle it would come from one of three places. HS Precision, NorCal or McBros. They are all fantastic. I have one of each and I can attest to the ability of all to group at long range. I know many other great rifle builders are out there but I have not tested them yet. Autuaga Arms has asked me to do some testing in the future and I hear great things about there rifles. I will let you know when I finish the HS and McBros tests. The Norcal test is done and what a great rifle it is.

Undude/Mike

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 15:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.163)

MikeM, When you get the chance, take Rusty from Autauga up on his offer. They make great rifles. I have been shooting with them for about 2 years now and I have two of their rifles in my Arms Room for sale right now. Their competition team shooters are very, very good and usually place top 3 (at least top 5) in the tactical rifle comps. They will be up there at Storm Mountain in Oct. Maybe you can have Rusty bring an extra rifle for you to take home and test.

Thomas
Thomas <email@snipersparaidse.com>
South Tip of, Texas, - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 16:44:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.247.107.162)

Bruce:

If you do a couple of things correctly you can throw that trickler in the trash.

1. Use a powder that meters well
2. Use a good powder measure
3. Test loads using five or more shot groups with a different charge weight in each case Say 45.1 45.2 45.3 54.4 45.6 etc
4. Find a load that consistently shoots a good group within this known range of charge weights
5. If your powder measure is capable of accuracy better than your tested spread of charge weights
6. Pick the middle of that charge weight.
7. Set your powder measure to average that weight.

"Average that weight" -- Say your middle charge weight is 10 grains. Set your measure up and throw 5 charges in the pan - that should weigh 50 grains. If it does not, adjust and try again.

8. Test your results again at the range (many groups)
9. If it still groups like you want it to - load em' up

I really live in Black Diamond, WA. but nobody knows where that is!

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA., USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 17:11:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

Looking for comments on the (relatively) new Leupold Vari-X 3 Long Range Scope. This is the 3.5-10x with mil-dot reticle and .25 MOA adjustments for windage AND elevation. I am VERY new to the art of Long Range Precision Tacticle Shooting, and am looking for insights. I will probably mount it on a model 700 PSS. Also, any recommendations for rings and mounts?

SPC T.
SPC Tomlin <SPCTomlin@yahoo.com>
Fort Benning, GA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 17:17:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.1.194.176)

SPC T,

Get either Badger Ordnance or MWG rings and base and you will not go wrong.

I have both mounted up on two seperate 700 Police models and they are in the same league as Un-Dudes slings, REALLY GOOD :-)

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 17:25:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.69)

Terry Glenn, About your post requesting data on "ZV" headstamps.

That would be 7.62x51mm cartridges made in Czechoslovakia in 1969 according to my DIA cartridge ID manuals. Some more info, the Czecks made the 7.62 x 51mm cartridge for use in their VZ59N machine gun. No known hazards or dangers. I don't know if the primers are corrosive or not. Hope this helps you. Good luck and take care.

Trigger50

Trigger50 <Dmicha@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 18:25:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.193.24.171)

Trigger50,
Many thanks,Ever heard of a .308 spotter round?
Got some Lake City 82 and 89 stuff.
Thought they were tracers,but they dont lightup until
they hit. Shot the gong at 245yards. I even tried one at
home. I can shoot to about 950-975 yards at home. the round
never lit.
Terry
Terry Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 20:15:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.43)
the site is great! about savage 110's. i have a 110 tactical in 7mm. during the last three years, i have taken deer in all of pensylvania's seasons. thats seven deer, all with one shot, and none under 150 yards or in ideal conditions. i agree tha the forearm of the stock leaves a little to be desired. but i have had no trouble whatsoever in any type of conditions. i literally beat the hell out of that rifle, and it still shoots sub-moa groups when i take it to the range. just thought i'd add my opinion to the list.
Justin Keenan <justinkeenan@hotmail.com>
pittsburgh, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 20:20:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 130.49.170.122)
Anyone have an idea how the competitions are going to run time wise on the 2nd and 3rd? Will they run as numbered? Any idea of what time will the comps be over on Sunday? As you can see by the questions, things are not looking any better, probably worse.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 20:40:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.23)
Good day, collegues.

As our discussion has overgrown a pure technical conversation between proffesionals, and you may find many people, who interesting in political questions, let me summarize some of my oppinions. By publishing this letter I probably may answer some questions, directed to me, but on which I have not answered in conference.

I appologise, if some of my words below will be sinonymous to what I have said personaly, or in that conference - that is not because I am too lazy to write others, but because I like consictency in words and deeds. I will not answer on some special questions - those questions with spirit of nostalgic memories of whitch-hunting - because the World has changed, and the answers would be too obvious.

Why we need to discuss some political aspects? That is not because we simply like to talk. I, most of the time, prefer to be silent, dare you not believe, in real life. We need to conversate because and you and we are snipers - and that is a very special proffesion in wartime. The artillerist, for example, are recieving comand like that:
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 20:50:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

--- sorry mistake during transmission caused error in the last letter.
--- retrain:

Good day, collegues.

As our discussion has overgrown a pure technical conversation between proffesionals, and you may find many people, who interesting in political questions, let me summarize some of my oppinions. By publishing this letter I probably may answer some questions, directed to me, but on which I have not answered in conference.

I appologise, if some of my words below will be sinonymous to what I have said personaly, or in that conference - that is not because I am too lazy to write others, but because I like consictency in words and deeds. I will not answer on some special questions - those questions with spirit of nostalgic memories of whitch-hunting - because the World has changed, and the answers would be too obvious.

Why we need to discuss some political aspects? That is not because we simply like to talk. I, most of the time, prefer to be silent, dare you not believe, in real life. We need to conversate because and you and we are snipers - and that is a very special proffesion in wartime. The artillerist, for example, are recieving comand like that: "Charge 2; Frag-2; 305, 2, 30; Fire!". And they act on command. They never will know, what they done - at distance of 25 miles - engaged a group of enemy, or that was a empty field, or it was a hospital or refugee camp. Same we can say about air forces - they throw bombs, and from the altitude where they are, explosion looks like flowers. Most beautifull flowers you can find on the Earth, be sure! They do not care about what they do, throwing cluster bomb on the column of refugees (remember?). If they will care, they will be not good enough for that job - to rule a soulless high-tech machine of mass-destruction. If they do something wrong yours or ours jolly officials will say "That was a mistake, haha, citizens, haha. In the name of democracy we have right on mistake, yeah, haha", as it happens some time ago.

We must know why we will kill, and for what we maybe will be killed; we must know who our enemy is. Sniper are faced with enemy at personal level. With the soul of sniper our successes - killed people - will enter the Greater Judge - greater of even our supperiors and officials, and they will not protect us by stating that "That was a mistake". You will have to face with all the people, who you killed; artillerist will not recognize them - and will be very happy of it. But sniper memory is filled with faces.

Don't think that I am hippie. "Green Peace" don't employ snipers, sure. I know, for what ideals we must kill, and that is not socialism and communism, or overheated from lies word "democracy", it is not a blind xenophobia, or religion. In what we all are common - that we may and must kill, protecting our Land and our Folk. If any force will attack your land you have right, and because of your duty, need to protect, what you find sacred. We will protect our Land and Folk, too, if something alike happens to Russia.

Me, and anybody from my group, have no need to take even one inch from the America. My brother, millitary communication officer also is totaly satisfied with living on our land. My third brother, now somewhere deep in the Polar Ocean, on duty on nuclear submarine, also has no need to take a piece of US pie. And not only US - we do not need no land, except Russia. Our government is too busy, robing own country, to want to have other one - and if they ever will want to do that, they can not make the deal without us. My grandfather, colonel of SA, was fighting against Nazi not pretending to have a house in Baden. My first grand-grandfather, well known war General, commanding strike army, and leading our troops on Berlin also never pretended to be a major of this city. My second grand-grand was punished by the reds, fighting for what he thinks was right, and the communists - wrong.

Russia will never attack US - that shows our history, our national philosophy and the fact, that Russia owns now the majority of what the Earth has to give to humans. Perhaps someone will argue, saying "What Russians has to do in Afganistan?" Good and contemporary question. Our stupid leaders have thrown army in that country, because of three things - first, that they pretended to "help" the people (with communistic accent), second - that they thinked, that if our troops don't do that, that will do US, and third - as I have said they were stupid. But, Afganistan is on border with Russia, USSR. And after the operation we don't add the Afganistan to USSR. I understand that this special question may lead to long disscussion, so let finish with this 5 cents land.

Perhaps anybody (maybe excluding the teenage nuclear sniper) in this conference can say the same words about themselves. Yes, I do no not believe that somebody here want to own piece of Russia, by the right of the war. I know, that you understand that it is u n r e a l.

So if all of us thinks so, why there is very obscured possibilities for this world to not to turn to fire-and-meat cocktail, in the near future? And why I presume, that world goes to war?

(sorry, people, after that paragraph I have drinked 1 Litre of Wermuth, so excuses and cheers)

So lets take a dusty old Globe. What we can see on it now? I see many problems here. The World now is not as simple, as it was when USSR existed. All possible conflicts are ready to be generalized. You know many places and countries, ready to go blast. That is first of all Yugoslavia. That is unsolved problems with kurds. That is unsolved problem in Iraq and Iran. What about Greeks and Turks? What about a spectrum of Asian flavors? Chinese, India, Pakistan? And growing terrorism? "Red brigades" are past. But "Gray brigades" will be more terrifeing. Basks, Nothern Ireland. Go to Russia - there is Chechen terrorists, war in Dagestan against them, unstable situation in Cherkessia, N. Osetia, Ingush Autnomy. Go to ex-USSR countries: Azerbajan, latently fighting with Armenia for Karabkh, Cisdnestrian Republic problem, constant fire in geroine Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan. Nazi in Kazakhstan. Nazi in US beloved Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia - where official SS murderers are national heroes. As my information says, not all is in order with Southern America. Yes! Australia has no problems! That is 10% of seeds of future wars that we can expect.

That's only seeds. So we must add some water to gain results. And here it goes.

What happening to US, as country, as people of America? Something, that happening to the entire world, but faster and effectively. That is degradation of civilisation. That is Dawn of The Gods. US is weak, US is desoriented. No more US, that US when America has been in battle with Nazi, when realy good people of the World fighting with the most obvious Evil. The Evil is now transformed, changed and metamorphised. It wears no logos. It washes brains and mass produces idiots. It makes people blind and weak, giving them fake ideals, just like a industry gives ammo for our needs.

Look around - the flies has eaten the whale. Weakness as ideal. Weakness as comfortable life solution. And fables for those, who do not want to feel weak, but are not strong enough to be not weak.

How brains, I believe equal quality around the World, when born, are washed? So look at the media, look at the TV and newspapers. Open eyes and look. Desinformation is everywhere. Who pays money will produce any info. Are you sure about something? About what you are sure? Let's play a game - name any fantastic story - and I, with relatively small amount of money will persuade half of a country, that it is true. So, if there is a need some people can lie about anything very truthfully - that is a business. And that becomes not only proffesion, but a subclass in all countries. Especialy in US.

Foreign politics. Why US constantly thinks that it has business in very far regions of the World? Who will pay for that interest? Yes, I know, taxpayers. And who will give their lifes for stupid ambitions of mass and criminal interests of politics? You, soldiers. You will be thrown in the fire, giving your life for interests of oil market, as was in Iraq; and for interests of scandal politicians and weapon makers you have a chance to give your lifes in Yugoslavia. So freedom to choose from.

Please, nobody believes in "fighting for democracy"! If even that will be so, say, what is to US democracy in Bibuania? Nothing. But oil, gold, uranium in Bibuania? So when young Tony (nothing personal) will lie in agony, may be the l a s t , what he will think clearly - that he is died for US. But I tell the truth - the f i r s t , what in the same time will think some well-dressed motherfucker - that war has given to him a good income. So, Tony, your life costs the pleasures of that sucker? Do you know, that you will die for motherfucker, not for US and ideals behind US?

(Again, cheers. After the last paragraph I wrote, I think that is right time to remind that I am not hippie)

Thus, I am for the war. I am for immediate war. I will be ready to join the army after 15 minutes. I am for the war with that o r d e r of things. Anybody want to command?

Lets discuss Yugoslavia, as an example. Do you know, what majority of us done after 24 march? We were packing. We have recieved authorisation, that we will get our rifles in Serbia. The last train to Belgrade. As volonteers, of course. The hatred inside me burned like flame of hell. "Why nobody likes us, Americans?" - my US girl has asked. Because. Nobody will like that order of things.

Later we recieved cancel. There is no need for snipers in war with high-tech cowards. People cry to dark skies: "Show yourself! Show yourself!". That was a war with demons, who are stronger than man, but weaker than God. And one day they will be punished and damned.

Columns of shatered to meat refugees, blood on the streets, constantly air alarm siren, women and children cry and send damnation to US. Refugees from there, from anywhere. Hunger. Diseases. Terror. The sound of AA guns, you know, like a loud dog woofs. Bombs falling to houses, to fields, to marketplaces and industrial objects. Was that humans who bomb Serbia? Was that "good guys", sent from a "home of the braves". Definitely no - I do not want to believe.

Your politics were busy: they talk with the Folk. They said, that Serbs are ba-a-a-aad, Albanians are goo-oo-od. And yet another time. And yet another time. How about anecdotical massgraves? That fit! Go-ooo-od. And atrocities? Goo-ood. What about a little story about heroes? Go-ooo-ood. What about tortures? Goooooood. Our losese? Ba-aa-aad. Say them - no loses until next elections. Why this war goes? Ba-aa-aad. That is not for the Folk brains. Wash them with daylight TV.

Fire it up!

So, that was what I have to say about Yugoslavia.

About cold war and ex-USSR. Very shortly.

You are wondering, that US causes starvation in Russia, Ukraine, Moldavia? So, as US officials sayed, they win could war. They found traitors, payed them, and won the war. First - nobody has defeated the Folk. Second - would you please - take them away, if they are existing on your money. Now, in one issue of Washington Post (or something as official, as this paper) I read about that: Russians are ba-a-a-ad, we divide Russia, and send Russians acros the oceans - nobody will remind that nation. What I have to feel? US State Department has sayed "Caucasus is region of our strategic interests" Will you be polite, if I will say, that I am "strategicaly interested" in California? No, and you are right, damn right! What we have to do?

Today we have watched a VHS - a tortures and killing of hostages in Dagestan. Documentary, not a fake. Proud Muslims have filmed it to be more proud; or perhaps for accountance. Old man shot from a pistol. Women decapitated with axe. 3-4 years child with crushed with stocks head. Young boy, tortured with pistol shots - do you know - foot left-right, knees right-left, fingers, hands - he was happy to die... All real-time, full-motion! Don't miss to watch!

Do you know that US secret services pays money to that beasts? Do you know, when you pay taxes - you must get a free copy of this VHS, to be sure that your money is not spent on air? Do you know who gifts this pistol? You.

So people, do something with the order of things. Do something, before it is not too late. Do something with your politicians, brainwashers and mental prostitutes. Do something before you have to kill and die in Russia or Yugoslavia. Do something before give money to government, paying for the children executions.

Fire!

--------------------------end

STANDARD DISCLAIMER

1. Although I have several times pointed "You", that is not personal. Just rhetoric, I do not mean, that was You exactly;
2. I have said "cowards" not for pilots, but for those who sent them;
3. Excuses for baa-aa-aad English.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 20:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get the best accuracy out of a savage 110. I couldn't afford the 110fp so i got th standard hunter type in 7mmrem. mag. It seems to shoot ok 3/4" at 80yards. I have considered bedding the action or purchasing a new stock, As I would like to get into competitive long range shooting I would appreciate any input more experienced shooters could provide. My only shooting experience came from three years in the infantry.
Jon english <jenglish@gerrie.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 21:05:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.236.45.97)
Mr. Paskz, that is the longest post I have yet seen on SC. And it was written in a way that would make many professional authors very jealous. Why? Because you speak from the heart, and have the power of truth in your words. Well done, sir!
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 22:04:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.50.75)
Paskz, I think it best you stay in your country and me mine. Not much chance of being buddies here.

Thomas, I may give Rusty a call and see what is the chance of that.

Back to slings for non commies only. No use giving them anything they can us or steal.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 22:43:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.31)

To Paskz.
Instead of crying loud over here, better do something in Russia.
You have a lot of targets: Eltcin and Co.
HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 08, 1999 at 23:37:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)
Bruce and James, if you want charges accurate to 1/10 thrown nerely as fast as using just a measure you need a Promethius powder weighing machine. I have used this thing a bit now and will never go back. www.prometheustool.com
Rich <dick2@clarkston.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 00:03:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.37.93.66)
Hi Illumanited Leupold's

Anyone have any experiance with the 1.5-5x20 or the LR-M1 & LR-M3,and is their German # 1 reticle,3 thickbar's,and the German # 4 a duplex without the top thick section.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 00:28:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.201)

I was wrong im my last post and i acted immaturely. I am sorry that you all had to read that slop and i can assure you it will not happen again. I have answered franks question and i will be giving him a call in a few years about joining. I just do not like my country to be threatened because i believe in my country and will die for it. I know you think im full of BS but theres nothing I can do about that except prove it, which i hope do do in a few years. Again i am sorry, and that adolescent outburst just shows why i am waiting a few years before i join. besides, i gotta finish college anyway.
TonyD
Montrose, CO, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 01:01:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.192.14.73)
I think what Paskz is trying to tell us is not to take what our leaders tell us in blind faith.In this day amd age, that's sound advice coming from anyone irregardless of where they come from.

It's very interesting to hear how the actions of we westerners impact those of abroad.With todays busy world, the only news most of us are getting are the 1/2 hour compressed local news programs and those of stations such as CNN.

The Kosovo conflict has indeed produced many victims including both Serbs and Kosovars.It's easy for us, as westerners, to demonize the Serbs for their attrocities against the Kosovars simply because our leaders want to justify their military actions.

Sure, what's going on there is totally against what we all stand for.However, like most regional conflicts in this area and others including the middle east, the ill will and fightig has been going on for litterally hundreds,if not thousands of years in some cases, only to be interupted by brief moments in history.The hatred and wounds run deep and have had generations to fester.

How very nobel of us to now step into THEIR problems so we can make everything all better so that we can all make ourselves feel better to rest our tortured collective conscience and know that we are the World's do gooders.

What a crock of S#@!T.The moment all of us lose interest in whats going on over there and adopt our new, "Cause de jour !" (Cause of the day) brought to you by the ratings conscious television networks, it will go back to business as usual, and the fighting begins once againand the problems remain unsolved.

I personally don't believe half the people on this site, myself included, new half of the nation states Paskz mentioned, even existed.

So, how can we even have a basis to understand what the real issues are in these parts of the world ? Simple.Educate yourselves as much as you can in true academic fassion.Don't just believe what you read in the papers or what you've seen on t.v. . Paskz is right about that.

Enough of this political B.S. ... this is getting none of us nowhere.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 01:39:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.97.91)

Please, Paskz, where did you learn English? Is your keyboard Cyrillic? I have met a few Russian and Ukrainian immigrants here in the Northwest. By and large, they are gentlemen. Most had a fondness for literature and poetry. Do you share that? These are honest and sincere questions. You made the call. Know your enemy. Hey, could you E-mail a training manual to me? Love to see it. A few good American movies are "Dr. Strangelove", "The Manchurian Candidate", and "Gorky Park". I enjoyed "The Battleship Potemkin". Also, read "Mig Pilot", one of your comradeswrote it. An interesting commentary on our culture and government can be found on this page's "Hot Links". Check out "The Drudge Report" and Col. Hackworth's page. Give me an addess and I'll mail you some tomatoes. Over here, our vegetable gardens are usually a source of pride and a pasttime as opposed to preventive measures against scurvy. Enjoy your reactors, and have a nice day!

Oh, yeah, a "pasttime" is something done for it's own sake. Probably a western phenomena.

Anybody remember the joke Reagan told Gorbachev at some summit meeting? The one about the bear?

Gooch, I'll forward the manual to you if I see it.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 02:07:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

Please, Paskz, where did you learn English? Is your keyboard Cyrillic? I have met a few Russian and Ukrainian immigrants here in the Northwest. By and large, they are gentlemen. Most had a fondness for literature and poetry. Do you share that? These are honest and sincere questions. You made the call. Know your enemy. Hey, could you E-mail a training manual to me? Love to see it. A few good American movies are "Dr. Strangelove", "The Manchurian Candidate", and "Gorky Park". I enjoyed "The Battleship Potemkin". Also, read "Mig Pilot", one of your comradeswrote it. An interesting commentary on our culture and government can be found on this page's "Hot Links". Check out "The Drudge Report" and Col. Hackworth's page. Give me an addess and I'll mail you some tomatoes. Over here, our vegetable gardens are usually a source of pride and a pasttime as opposed to preventive measures against scurvy. Enjoy your reactors, and have a nice day!

Oh, yeah, a "pasttime" is something done for it's own sake. Probably a western phenomena.

Anybody remember the joke Reagan told Gorbachev at some summit meeting? The one about the bear?

Gooch, I'll forward the manual to you if I see it.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 02:08:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

Paskz really Fries my ass, yes he does speak the truth, but and I realize I dont have much of a place to say this. But he is a guest on a AMERICAN web site and as such it is my belief he should be polite and keep his mouth shut about the woes of our Country. Seems to me every foreigner I have ever met always had there two bits worth to throw in about how crappy our gov is,,how crappy our country is. Well there just jealous as hell in my book. And should worry about there own corrupt governments where they have absolutly no Freedom at all but a fake one. Bottom line as as a rule of thumb I visit a foreign country I respect there country and there traditions and keep my opinions of it to myself as it is not my place to interfere. So foreigners Worry about your own Screwed up Governments and We Americans will worry about ours.

Now on another note. Why is it that for Thousands of years it was honerable to kill another man and now all of a sudden in this country mostly in the last one hundred years it is suddenly Taboo.
I Dont know of one person that ever killed another man Intentionally that gave a Ratts ass about that person, had nightmares or any of the other crap I hear all the time. IM sure it varies from person to person and on the situation. No I have never killed, Have not yet needed to. But I doubt I would have a problem whatsoever. Never had a problem smashing someones skull into the pavement Or Punishing them in the Ring. As I believe I have the blood lust so necissary to survive in any kind of a fight. Oh I may be a Wacko but I dont think I am, just think I am being honest to myself and not buying any of this media crap thrown at me to get me to be a passive good little Pussy afraid to stand up for what I believe. Just the way I see it

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 02:20:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.184)

Breezed past here last week, some woman on here talking about a retired hooker in canada, this week, a SVD ad agent discussing our political woes? WTF?

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 02:51:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

OKAY,

A PLEA!

I NEED HELP WITH SOME LOADS FOR A .300 WINCHESTER MAGNUM UTILIZING 190 GR BTHP'S WITH HODGDONS H-1000 FOR A NICE LITTLE "NUTTY PROFESSOR" PROJECT.... WELL FOR SOMETHING LIKE A DODAC A-191 CLONE LOAD OR THEREABOUTS.

I GOT A HODGDONS MANUAL, BUT I DESIRE SOME EMPIRICAL TESTING AND RESULTS TO WORK WITH AS WELL. YOU KNOW LOA, NECK TENSION, PRIMERS.....

ON POLLYSTROIKA, STOLYANEECHA, canadian hookers, GWYNETH PALTROW, WHATEVER!
ENOUGH HAS BEEN SAID

OR I'LL CALL YOU ALL POOPYHEADS!

BACK TO S-N-I-P-E-R- C-O-U-N-T-R-Y

Oh-TAY?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 03:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.52)

to Mark D Cahill:

I have a Harris Gunworks M-89 stock on my .300 Win mag. In the past, Harris has not had a very good reputation for either quality or business ethics. My long time gunsmith, Lars Larson went to work for them about a year ago as head shop foreman. As Mike Miller can attest to, Lars is a gentleman and a fine smith. So, I gave them the opportunity to build the stock for me to my specs. I asked for the basic M89 stock with the exception of the detachable magazine. It took about 2 months to get it back, and its a damn fine stock, well made and a pleasure to use. I did not buy the complete system, not needing it, so can't speak to the quality of the rest of the rifle. A year ago, I would have recommended against a Harris product, but since Lars is there, I think their worth further investigation. If you want any other info, contact me through my email ID.
Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 03:23:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.132.48.155)

Re: Harris & Autauga rifles. I've talksed to Lars, mentioned in previous posts, and he is VERY helpfull. Also, the rifle i had made by Harris was designed for african plains game hunting. 338 win mag, 1.5x6 burris, eaw quick connect rings & base, custom wood stock. period. i used it in hathcock 1 and I hit all targets on 1st. shot. except 500 yds. due to me friggin around. even did the only head shot on the movers.

note - i never shot over 100 yds before in my life, had to bang the rifle butt on the ground to release a mis-fed round (due to inexperienced, dummy, me) and the thing shot great. my normal 5 shot groups in rapid fire with a harris bipod using federal premium safari 210gr. nosler partitions with this rifle on bi-pod are .465 inches at 100 yds.....that's roughly 0.125 moa.

also own an Autauga 308, rem 700 rcvr., black-star accumax 2 bbl, mac 3 stock. on a harris bi-pod. shot 1st. place in a LRT match (600/800/1000 yds.) at Hardrock last may. (beat Rusty Rossey with a rifle he produced - he took second by 1 point), 2 usmc scout-snipers, 1 fbi sniper, a couple local le snipers and a host of local others. (used whitefeather 175's). this was 1st. time ever shooting this rifle....had never fired it before the match.... just used estimated rough come-ups. had absolutely no ballistics data on the ammo. it GROUPS !! even at 1000 yds. best grouping (for me)was at 800 yds...3 inches for 4 of the 5 shots. 1st shot for me was a sighter.... hit 5 inches from dead center at 11 o'clock.

hope this helps those considering the 2 choices.

butch

butch fuller <chf1949@home.com>
n'awlins, lousy-ana, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 05:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.254.164)

Bruce; This is the damnedest thing I've ever seen! But I read this man's post border to border 3 times looking to find where he is wrong, out in left field, or even misguided. I have to agree with Will.
Snipers; Hey just because he is half a world away don't mean he can't say what he feels and know of what he speaks. And that's what makes it so valuable for me! It's damned right spooky what he knows and how close to real it is! Cut it and dice it and chew it up! It still rings mostly true to me!
Tony; It's all part of gettin there man! Wish I had a nickel for everything I'd like to take back! Do youself a favor and read the Russian one more time! Even to those who think he is wrong will be a bit bothered by for it has a disturbing ring of something they haven't heard from someone over there! Facinating! Absolutely...
Paskz; Pour yourself another Wermuth! As we rednecks say! "Let the good times roll!"

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 05:06:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

After taking an extended weekend I switched back on the computer and tuned into one of my favorite sites. With sweaty palms and a heart full of joy thinking about how I would be learning more about how to kill prarie dogs at 6000 yards *IF* I paid attention to spin-drift, moon cycles, and the salt content of the air I find *drum roll please* Radio Moscow Versus The Voice Of America. Hmmmmmm.

Completely different topic: I have had the pleasure of exchanging email with about half a dozen readers on SC about the M1 Garand. While not a sniper weapon per-se I have noted a warm spot in several SC readers hearts for this gun... Including mine.

For those interested in this weapon, I happened upon a site this evening which appears to be run by an older individual who has done a ton of research into the historical documents on this weapon and has put out a book of copies of much of what he has found. I thought I'd share the url with this group. http://www.users.fast.net/~eclancy/ .

I have zero interest or connection with his site but thought I'd share it with those of you who might be interested.

JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 06:24:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

Last comment on the political crap: Both the USA AND RUSSIA are super powers and they BOTH believe that they have some mysterious god given rights to interfere with anything they like. Usually it has got something to do with military and economic strategy but very often these interheferences are caused by internal politics.

Just look at Jeltsin and Clinton and think about Kosovo, Dagestan and other places where they send troops whenever they are having some problems in internal politics. I do not like either country´s governments if you ask me, though I do not like my own government all the time either. The problem is that politics is a dirty affair and normal people like you and me will ALWAYS HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE for the politicians adventures.

I like USA for the ideological part and for some freedoms (which you seem to be losing on a continuous pace lately) but for example I do not like a bit about what NSA and UK government do in electronic intelligence in Europe. Basically NSA is tapping my phone everytime I choose to use my cellular phone. I do not like it. Neither should you because they do it on all international calls to and from USA. Your own government monitors your international calls 24 hours a day. I think you in the good old USA should be a little pissed off from this. Maybe you didn´t know this. And no, this is not a "conspricy theory" but real life operation to which USG pours your tax money all the time.

Enough of this crap, but if everybody else is doing, I thought I might add a little kerosine on the fire :-).

For the record I prefer USA over Russia but I prefer Finland over everything else. We should probably get back to business and start discussing VLD bullets, canted scope rings, "Master Snipers" :-) and the like.

BTW: SU army killed my uncle and my family has suffered quite much after the war started by SU. If I can tolerate Pask(z) the you should too. He is a russian, so what. He didn´t choose his place of birth and neither did you. Nationality (or color of your skin for that matter) in itself can not be bad or good. The person himself is good or bad.

Take care

Hexa

P.S. Flame all you want, I do not care. Better write something about sniping as this is THE SITE.

Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 08:06:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Hey Everyone, SOme of you guys know my background and others dont. First of all I am of Russian background and am fluent in Russian and have done numerous tranlations for many US corporations in the US. Kent I cant help but agree with you about how you feel about the Old Soviet and New Russian threat. As long as they have nuclear capabilities and offer these little toys to the international market, they are a great threat to the whole world. Ive been there and in many of the negotiations which I have been involved in, the big Russian concern is how many "Amerikanskiye Dollarie" can we get out of this deal. The crime is rampant in Moscow and Leningrad (St Petersburg - or what every it is this week) where business people from Russia and abroad actually have body guards protecting themselves. And this criminal element has spread international, i.e. the Mafia in New York. Last year I was notified of one of my counterparts in St Petersburg wound up with a couple of 9mm in the back of his head for whatever reason. Left a beautiful wife and two kids. Never did find out from the bought off police what happened.

And Pask,, or whatever, even though you might be relative of mine, there is still a great amount of distrust between the US and Mother Russia, as you can see on this post. Also if you are posting from Kiev, that is not Russia any longer but Ukraine. SO either you are a Russian transpant or a Ukrainian. And also everyone with whom I have been in contact with, claim to have no alliance or allegiance to the old regime. I find this difficult to believe. I know that, just like here in the US, some things are political incorrect, the same holds true in Russia. Nobody admits to being a card carrying commie any longer. But get real, most people were!!

And Kent I think it great to come home and fuck the prom queen (no, peteR not the kind you like in drag) but while you are doing that remember that we still have to maintain the vigil outside of our doors once the juicy and sloppy fun work is done.

Gotta love this country even though I dont always agree with Her policies. I guess that is why I joined that "para-military" organization called the US Air Force. (Right Kent!!)

Wouldnt want to be anywhere else in the whole world except here.

God Bless the USA...

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Sittin' Here Good and Pissed in, Ohi-er, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 08:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.54)

Gentlemen: Once again Gentlemen please xcuse my post as most of the time I stay out of getting involved in the heated debates and name calling which happens occasionally on S/C. But I do feel passionately about this subject and had to express my opinion. Thanks for listening. But enough of the political back and forths.

Meanwhile, back to Sniper Country questions. Has anyone had any experience with the AICS stock from Accuracy International and what is their opinion about the stock? Inquiring minds want to know!!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls. net>
Politically bantered about in , Ohio, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 08:24:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.54)

Somoen asked about a sequal to "Clear and present Danger". I dunno of a sequal, but the movie "Patriot Games" was kind of a prequal. But yes, a very good movie, both of them. I would recomend them to anyone, especially Tom Clancy fans. Course, anyone who reads his stuff prolly has several of thier own conspiracy theories :p

Someone else asked about 9mm vs 45acp. Really depends on what you are using it for. 9mm is less expensive to get ammo for, but with most modern 9mm pistols, the brass expands too much (unsuported chamber) and you cannot reload the brass. 9mm has higher velocities, hold trajectory at longer distances, but some feel it lacks in power. Of course it does have higher capacities on average. The venerable 45acp is a great round for one shot knock downs, and is great indoors. It's slower, and larger, which means that your not gonna blow trough walls as readily, puting persons, possibly loved ones, in other rooms in danger. the design of the 45 (talking of 1911's) has been around for a long time, and is well proven. 45 ammo is more expensive, but you can reload, due to lower chamber pressures. I honestly have one of each, a 70 series combat commander, and a glock 17, can't tell ya which is my favorite, but i choose different ones for carry under different situations. If it was balls to the wall, sh*t hit the fan, riots, y2k freak happening, or bug out in a mess, I'd honestly pack both, but then again, I have a thing for firepower :p

I have kind of a sensitive question for all you duty slotted military, and or police guys. If the gov'ment passed an all encoumassing ban on guns, and sent you all to collect ( obviously you'd be amongst teh choices), would you be able to act in that way against the civilian sector to take away that right? just a question/thought.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
someplace wet and boring, Maryland, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 09:01:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Re: the mention of M1 Garands brings back an old comment that I remember from I believe, Scott Powers, posted on the Roster many months back.

If anyone out there has older WW1, WW 2, type sniper type rifles why not consider doing a review on it and send it to the site for posting?

Judging by the amount of recent questions regarding these weapons, there seems to be a fair amount of interest in them.Lee Enfield, M1 D's, 1903 Springfields, Mosin Nagants (s.p. ?) ect. . Some of you out there must have something to say about these old, though very interesting, sniper rifles.

I got a question regarding H335 rifle powder.I'm looking at purchasing some bulk W844 (H335) surplus powder to use for loading .223 .Can anyone tell me if the powder is good for loading the heavier .224 cal. bullets in the 68-69 gr. range ?

Most of the data from Hogdon that I've seen only covers bullet weights from 45-60 gr. range.Any ideas or sugggestions ?
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 09:18:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.76.83)

Partison...

You say..."But he is a guest on a AMERICAN web site and as such it is my belief he should be polite and keep his mouth shut about the woes of our Country."

You might get your facts straight!!! The site is run from South Africa!
It's not an American site, it is an international site!
And you are a guest on it...
... as are all of us! So walk lightly, with a little respect for the others.

And we share a special craft (at different levels) if we can't listen to each other, dispite the differences, then we are really lost.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Tryin' to git my shit together for West "By Gawd" Virginy!, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 11:02:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.92)

Will magnum primers (CCI 250)used with Varget Power for reloading 175grn.(308)have any effect on accurarcy or safety?
Jim
James Barko <g2rk73mx@gateway.net>
Calumet City, IL., USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 11:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.255.39.30)
Jim:
Generaly, magnum primers are reserved for particular applications that require a hotter or more violent "spark", such as heavy loads of slow burning ball powders or for ammo that is to be used in very cold weather. They can cause an increase in pressure over standard primers and generaly are not to be used without a specific reason. The manuals will usualy let you know when they are called for. Otherwise the use of magnum primers call for backing off of your powder charges and working back up.

Older sniper equipment:

I have experience in working on the M1 for National Match work and even glass bedded a No.4 Mk.1(T) one time (how many folks outside of the commonwealth say that? :) I have never worked with the M84 scope on the range but from what I have seen and hear it was a mediocre scope on a good day. The rest of the rifle is a very good battle rifle of course and can be quite accurate, but in National Match tune is a very finiky, temperamental, flaky etc, etc. thing. Its like the M14/M21 system guns, only a lot worse to keep accurate and in the field. I understand that some tuuned M1Ds were used in the early days of Vietnam. I cant imagine a more hostile environment for such a rifle and imagine that it was a real pain in the ass to live with.

The No4.4 Mk.1(T) was a customers gun, already butcherized, um, sporterized years prior to my getting ahold it. It was unrestorable and the guy wanted it glassed and restocked so I ordered in some wood from Fajen and had at it. I normaly hate Microbed but these rifles have so many subtle little undercuts and back-bevels in the reciever that I was afraid I would lock the gun in the stock no matter carefuly I clayed it in to begin with. Microbed has a little bit of give to it and is thus more forgiving. Anyway, I got the job done, complete with free-floated barrel and an oil finish. The customer was very happy, with the gun reportedly capable of about 1 MOA accuacy. I hope the bedding has held up for him. I had a lot of opportunity to play with it in the interim. The scope was realy impressive for a WWII-era optic, better than anything else of that era that I have ever looked through by far. Perhaps some of the big German optics of the day would be better or on a par, dont know.

I own a Russian PU scope for the M91/30 sniper but no mount (need to correct that). Its very functional in design and quite clear opticaly, but would appear to not have a coated lens in it. Very prone to flare and blooming in bright sunlight.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 12:55:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.174.43)

This is a great website, thanks for making it happen!
Jeffrey Port <JeffreyPort@Hotmail.com>
Jacksonville, NC, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 14:45:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.4.234.21)
Quickbow, you know I respect your opinion and consider you a cyber pal. But the remark/request the one dude made re the 9mm vs. .45 issue was just tongue in cheek (I'm pretty sure!). He was just trying to change the subject, and threw in the one thing that is so old and so tired, and can still be hashed out in every issue of G&A or name the mainstream gun-rag of your choice. But anyway, thanks for the info. Too bad the dozen or so guys who ask about it, EVERY DAY or so it seems, on the newsgroup rec.guns, probably won't check in to SC.

So back to business... which is better, the AR15 or the AK? :^)
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 14:54:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.50.210)

B.Rogers: My comment was not made to question the accuracy of what was said, but rather, why it was said at all. Problem is, to point out where a statement is incorrect...simply keeps the thread alive.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 16:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)
First my SC related gun question: I'm attending the Long Range Rifle course at Storm on the last weekend in Sept. I have a Rem 700 BDL that I've been shooting 168 MKs out of for a while now, I have a pretty solid load worked out (see below for range limitation)...Now I hear that the 168 won't stay supersonic out to 1000 yards. The longest range I have access to here in NJ is 300 yards...should I try to switch to 175s this late in the game to use the exposure at Storm to refine that load or should I stick to the 168s? I won't even ask about the Berger VLDs as they apparently require mastering a second variable of AOL.

Now my political observation: Mr Paskz strikes me as being very much like many of us, with the subtle variation that he has grown up as a national of the USSR. He is as much an unwilling victim of his news service as we are of ours... I'm sure many of you have noticed that not everything the US government does is to your liking, and remarkably, the things we don't particularly like often come up as "discoveries" or observations outside the standard "crap" the media feeds us daily. Hey, I admit it...my dad, the "devil's advocate" can make me feel stupid whenever he wants to (and often does)...truth is, I'm fooled by some of what I hear on TV... (shame on me)

The thing that torques me about all this national blame we are throwing back and forth is that none of us really accept responsibility for our countries actions, how could we...all countries do immoral things that we wouldn't approve of...

My opinion is that we in the US must listen to the concerns of people like Paskz...we should validate them as true or false..and if they are true and we don't condone them, we should remove the elected or appointed person that did the "bad thing"....because only then will people like Paskz see the value in a "representative government for the people".... and only then will he be enlightened to the value of such government.

There is nothing wrong with the US government that the US citizens cannot fix (without bullets)....I think Paskz is not so lucky where he lives

**not intended to be insulting in the least, to anyone

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
New Jersey, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 16:35:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

INTO CROSSBOWS
bill howell <billhowell@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 16:58:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.83)
I really just ran across your site by accident. I started target shooting at the age of 8 or 9 at Northwestern Naval and Military Academy summer camp, in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. I attended summers until the age of 14.
I always have hated peep sights. I just cannot stand them. I can put a .410 shotgun slug through the letter "O" in a stop sign, from one city block away, with either a front "field sight" or no front sight on the shotgun at all.
I am not bragging, but I hated peep sights when I saw them in the army as well; and I have no use in shooting at or killing anyone or anything beyond a quarter mile. I am comfortable with that.
Maybe someone would like to comment on peep sights versus field sights. I am not taking about trying to knock off an enemy with a mounted .50 cal machine gun at 1,000 meters. Sure there is a need for the long range shooting. I think your maximum effective range must be only about 400 meters with world class sniper rifles overall. I remember one thing from infantry school, and that is if you can't see - you cant hit them. Give me a shortsword or a garrot close up and personal. I just do a little hunting with a Medieval crossbow, once in awhile.
Bill Howell <billhowell@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 17:34:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.48)
Bruce; I see my comments were misleading. I was just saying "lookee here Bruce! What do you think of this?" I think I understood where you were on it but my enthusiasm made it sound different!
To ALL:
I think it just strikes me so hard that a man from some far off place seems to have gleened a lot of the same ideas that I have. As someone said maybe we should validate but a lot of it is just theory and kind of hard to validate it. What makes something sound so much like the truth is when it matches your own preconceived ideas so closely and comes from someplace far removed!
PeteR. you see what you started! Watch yore dude language there lest you start a donnybrook over them pistols again! That was bound to happen! I got a new powder for you. It's called Warget! Just a little something I picked up lately hea!
My apology for being so hiped up on the information from Paskz. You know I can learn anything I want about rifles and dirt crawlin from Gooch man, Rick and others but you don't get a blast of Russian opinion everyday. This has to be the best thing about the Internet. This exchange between peoples all over. Makes us Hi-tech rednecks happy just to get out of town!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 17:37:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Point well taken Pablito my apologies
just get tired of the US getting hammered on.

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 17:54:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.132)

Maybe y'all can help me out. I recently qualified as a sniper for my department. Due to it being a tiny dept, we buy our own weapons and equipment. I own a M1A S.M. and have installed a Springfield Armory scope mount on it. The scope mount has been giving me problems shooting loose after 60 rounds or so. How the heck do ya keep the thing on???? Almost ready to give it up and go to a Rem 700, but I just love the M1A. I know ya guys have a lot more experience than I do, myself being a civvie for my entire life up until 2 years ago and your combined knowledge I am sure will find a solution to this. Thanks!
BeachCop <SurfCtyCop@aol.com>
Hampstead, NC, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 19:03:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)
Tom. RE- M84 scope
I think the M-84 is a much more refined scope than the N0.32 Mk4 scope. It is also very heavy and durable, just holding one in you hand gives you the feeling that you could beat someone senseless with it and put it back on your rifle and it would still work. It is easier to zero than the Brit Scope. Just to index the elvation on the Brit Scope takes 4 hands and a few special tools. The M-84 scope is a true 1 revolution BDC scope just like the Leupolds everyone is so fond of nowdays. The only problem is that it does not have a great deal of extra elevation adjustment, so the bases have to fit the rifle just so- to make use of all of the elevation adjustment that the scope does have, (Sound familiar?) The front and rear lenses of the M-84 are flat and hardened so you can wipe them clean with a shirt-tail if needed.
One improtant feature of the m-84 scope is that the windage and elevation turrets are more towards the front of the scope. This is a major improvment over the old Weaver 330-C which had the windage and elevation turets near the back end. This was the major design flaw of the old weaver scope, besides not being waterproof. In combat, our guys would keep hitting the elevation turrets with the front of their helmets whenever they tried to aim the rifle. This was the major reason that the 330c had such a poor reputation for holding Zero.
The M-84 also has a nifty design flip-open protective caps for the turrets. Why this simple and practical design feature was dropped with the more modern scopes is a mystery to me. Perhaps Rick or Gooch could explain that one.
If the 03-A4 rifle had the M-84 scope in WW2, the N0-4 Enfield would
not have been in the running for Best Rifle Award!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 21:02:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
BeachCop,

Hate to have to tell you this but you have a dog that just won’t hunt. The sad thing is that the only thing Springfield makes that is not worth a damn is their scope mount. I have one and tried everything including locking Locktight. If you want to use the rifle for sniping purposes I recommend the following scope mount.

Scope Mount, Brookfield Precision, U.S.G.I. $249.95
Scope Rings, ARMS, Q.D., 30mm (Specify Low, Medium or High $99.95
http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14Parts.htm

This is a rock solid steel mount. It is very heavy duty and will hold up for many years.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 21:08:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Starting another rifle soon. Anyone shoot a 7mm x 61mm Sharpe & Hart? How about 338-378 Weatherby vs. 338 Lapua? Are those two comparable at all? The .338-.378 has amazing ballistics, recoil, and barrel roaching amounts of powder. The Lapua also, I assume. The rifle will be used for plinking, varminting, and peeling paint off car hoods.

Beachcop, did you come to the right place!
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 21:09:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.82)

Question about Mauser Model 66SP:
Springfield Armory has these available for $2225.00 including the scope. I realize that these are used but is that not still a great deal? Does anyone have any experience with these?
TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 22:04:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.179)
Good day, collegues.

Perhaps you are tired of me? I am not cruel, that is not the beginig. That is nearer to the end of my presence here.

So to the problem for fliying empty shells from semi-auto rifle (any, and SVD too), as it may cause detection by enemy.

The solution is simple - there exists, for SVD, black shell rounds (for those, who are beginners - DONT MAKE EXPERIMENTS WITH PAINTING. I KNOW, WHAT TO DO TO PAINT IT - BUT DONT DO THIS SELF - IT CAN CAUSE EXPLOSION AND OTHER SHIT - DONT USE PAINT - sorry) That is also not complete solution - probably somebody can see it fliying opposite highlight. So, switch to mate shels. That is not a large problem, I think. The complete solution of sniper related questions - is not to do anything.

I like semiautos. Bolt-acting guns is realy philosophic, but sometimes to philosophic in real life.

Once upon a time I fired on the range with my cheap, junky SVD and empty shell from it has fallen in my collegue uniform shirt. That was a truly the best collection of adult termins, explicit lirycs and colourfull metaphores. I like semiautos.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 22:32:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Paskz,
Man, you are so full of it! Serbs "Fighting a war against the demons?" How about the Kosovars trying to fight the Serbs? With their bare hands? Let me tell you, that my buddy is in Kosovo right now with the Dutch AirMobile brigade and the letters I get from him are gutwrenching. No, this is not from newspapers. he's seeing things as they are with his own eyes! The Serbs SLAUGHTERED thousands of people in Kosovo! Innocent people, women and children, old men! And you want to fight with these animals just because NATO (yes, you read that right, I said NATO and not "the US") finally decided it was time to put an end to it? I personally feel they should have LEVELED Serbia months earlier. I haven't seen NATO aircraft INTENTIONALLY target Serb villages, have you? That is exactly what the Serb militia did in Kosovo. The evidence of that is impossible to ignore.

Sure, I think that NATO has lost many more resources then they care to admit. I have probed around in my sources and heard some stories that couldn't be verified and that I can not repeat here, but it seems like NATO lost more then just a few jets. So what? If is has saved as many Kosovar civilians as the Serbs have killed, it was well worth it. My only problem with that whole situation is that we responded WAY to late!

Oh, and just to stop you from saying this: yes, I do know the KLA started the fighting. Result: the Serbs started to kick ass in a disproportional way in Kosovo. Result of THAT: WE KICKED THEIRS!!!

There's one more word that I want to say to put your Serbian friends in perspective. It's a word closely linked to the actions of my country's army. It's the name of a town, one like many towns in Bosnia where the Serbs first showed their practices to the rest of the world. Here comes my word and I hope it calls to mind images that make even you think again about the people who's side you chose:

SREBRENICA

There, I've said it!

Paskz, I don't think this is the place to hold these discussions. I have no beef with you not with most Russians. As a matter of fact, I'd love to travel your beautifull country and I'd like to meet you and you can teach me what real wodka tastes like. In my eyes, Russian soldiers are some of the bravest I've ever heard about, and if the shit would have hit the fan in Central Europe, I admid that I would have shit myself more then once! Let's keep this form for sniping related discussions only. If you want to, please e-mail me on the adress below. We might meet sooner then you think! I'll tell you about it in private.

All: I want to raise a little discussion again. In the past I've adressed field-knives and some of you might recall what a lively discussion that resulted in. Wel, guess what. Knives have to have their place on ..... webgear.

WEBGEAR: WHAT DO YOU PREFER, OLD STYLE ALICE GEAR, NEW STYLE LBE OR OPS-VESTS. WHAT DO YOU CARRY/WEAR AND WHY?

Hope you guys have some fun input for me again!

Darell West or anyone who keeps in touch with him: Let him send me an e-mail!

L8er!
Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 22:47:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.193.82)

TR: You might want to get in touch with Torsten. He's a big (also in the literal sense of the word) Mauser enthousiast. He shoots the 86SR. I've read about the 66 and there was nothing but good about it/ Still have to get my greasy little hands on one...

L8er!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 22:56:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.193.82)

Guys
Okay, I just got back from the range, trying to break in my PSS. I have gotten a ton of useful info here (thanks Rick for the SOTIC break in procedures). My question is this, You're supposed to clean with Shooter's Choice for the carbon then Sweet's for the copper until the patches are clean, BUT THE FRIGGIN' PATCHES ARE NEVER GETTING COMPLETELY CLEAN!!! Out of two whole days ( 7 hours each session) I've only gotten 4 rounds total through the derned thang! Is this to be expected or am I trying to do something impossible? At this rate phazers will be out of date by the time I'm done. Someone Help!!!
Rich <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore, People's Republik of Maryland , USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 23:16:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)
Guys
Okay, I just got back from the range, trying to break in my PSS. I have gotten a ton of useful info here (thanks Rick for the SOTIC break in procedures). My question is this, You're supposed to clean with Shooter's Choice for the carbon then Sweet's for the copper until the patches are clean, BUT THE FRIGGIN' PATCHES ARE NEVER GETTING COMPLETELY CLEAN!!! Out of two whole days ( 7 hours each session) I've only gotten 4 rounds total through the derned thang! Is this to be expected or am I trying to do something impossible? At this rate phazers will be out of date by the time I'm done. Someone Help!!!
Rich <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore, People's Republik of Maryland , USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 23:16:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.184)
BeachCop:

Have to agree with Mike about the Springfield mouting system. I have one, and frankly most of the cheaper one-point mounts are actualy better made. In the case of the M14/M1A, there is no substitute for a top-drawer all-steel scope mount if repeatability and reliability is an issue (and I certainly hope it is here). The Brookfield is an excellent example of one.

In addition, I would advise you to find a qualified armorer on M14 rifles and make good friends with him. M14-based tactical rifles are relativly high-maintnence and require frequent inspection in order to maintain proper zero and grouping.

As for M84 vs. British WWII optics...Steve, you raise some valid points. I havent shot with either aside from a few rounds but, aside from the points I raised, I just didnt like the M84 as much. This was a gut reaction as much as anything else on my part. It should be noted that the No.4-based sniper rifles hung around in service far longer than either the M84 or the rifles it was mounted on, so there must have been some merrit to it :) The flip-up covers on the M84 is indeed an interesting feature, but I think in thats scopes case the gasket on the covers was the primery seal for the adjustment mechanisim, so given that I would prefer a Leupold sans any covers at all. :)

IIRC, the M84 was in fact mounted on some M1903A4s, very late in the war or post-war, one. I have no doubt it ws a better rifle for it, too.

Bill Howell: Hate to burst your bubble, but in fact the best tactical equipment can at this point outshoot all but the very best shooters. At the extreem are the 1,000 yard benchrest guys who, with ideal guns under ideal conditions, are shooting .4 MOA groups at that range. The very best tactical gear (say, a Chandler rifle) can beat that to at least 300 yards and probably well beyond. Last I heard 400 yards might be a bit long for a headshot under field conditions but is realy pretty short range for a military sniper for a typical COM shot. "Long-range" shooting realy dosent begin for me until you are over 400 yards, and I am no sniper (but I play one on TV). :)

Perhaps you should seek out a Tactical Broadsword forum.

BTW, the last time I talked to one of out NG sniper/competitive marksmen, he reported that they had been playing with their M24A1 systems at 600 yards, seeing if they could make headshots at that range. The verdict; not practical under most circumstances in the field but do-able enough, with an 80% sucess rate under ideal conditions.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown , SC, USA - Thursday, September 09, 1999 at 23:31:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Paskz,
Don't give up posting to the SC Duty Roster. I enjoy all of the firearms related info that I read.

BROGERS,UNDUDE,PABLITO, and GOOCH,
Thanks for always being informative and doing your homework and thanks to those who take the time to answer personal email.
BACK TO SHOOTING!!!!

Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
COWS BAY, ORY_GUNN, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 00:21:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.103)

Stephan and Paskz; It's hard to pick a winner in the Balkans or find someone you would want to be friends with based on their behavior toward each other. This is a very old war. IT is hard to stand by and watch the slaughter when your here in America but equally hard to know which way to shoot! Since it was not an affair of honor and although I do understand the frustration of those on the ground I must say that we just could not afford to play honor games on dishonorable people (meaning both sides) and risk running into Paskz on a grey dawn morning! The outcome was probably the only one that could be acceptable except just leave them alone and let them kill each other! The Serbs could have halted the bombing anytime by pulling out! Maybe it was their idea of honor and I won't judge them. We had our Alamo too. Fights don't always make sense. A column I write for another publication stated that I thought it very unwise to meet the Serbs on the ground in their own country! We are there now and I hope that's the end of it! It was a lose lose situation.
Paskz; I do submit that the brass may be a problem if faced with counter sniper operations such as this country is capable of sending out. IF the enemy isn't equiped you may be ok but this one over here is! The simple movement of the brass is a beacon whether Matte or whatever. Enough!~May we never see that gray dawn!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 02:21:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Hey Guys, I don't know if this is proper or not, but I always like to let my buddies know about good deals that I can't afford and have to pass on!
If any of you are in the New England area and are looking for a really nice shooting iron, check this out!
Custom Tactical/Competition Rifle by Gary Schneider-Phoenix,AR
Stock:LOD tactical stock by McMillan w/ front and rear accessory rails, adj. length of pull and neoprene covered cheekpiece. Pachymayer decelerator recoil pad. Push button quick-release sling swivels.
Action: Remington 700 Long action in .300 Win. Mag. Fully blueprinted, trued and hand lapped by Gary Schneider. Tactical fast action bolt knob by AWC. 3.5 pound match trigger w/ light weight firing pin.H-S Precision magazine conversion and stainless trigger guard.
Barrel: Schneider stainless steel, 26" match, heavyweight, handlapped barrel w/ 1 in 10" twist and target crown.
Scope: Leupold 6.5-20X50 Long Range w/ side focus paallax adj. and 30mm tube.
Mount&Rings: Richard Near custom Picatinney mount w/ recoil shoulder.MWG heavyweight tactical rings.
Finish: Moly-based Mil-Spec matte finish Breco Inc.
Accessories:Versa-Pod bipod w/ mount, adj. handstop. Dewey prem. coated cleaning rod. Fitted Starlight Mil hardcase.
Story I hear about it's orgin is,A Police Officer had this custom made for him, before it was even finished, he saw something else he wanted and the wife said no way not two off them, So as soon as it was finished, he sold and bought other. It has only been proof fired by the maker and is sitting collecting dust. Real nice piece of work guys!!! It can be seen at Rileys Sport Shop,1575 Hooksett Rd, Hooksett,NH 03106 (603) 485-5000 . There is over $3,000.00 into it and they are asking $2,795.00(heard they will take first $2,500.00 on the counter!)Tell them Rick sent ya!
Rick <Bountyhnts@aol.com>
Hooksett, NH, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 02:55:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.182)
Gentlemen. I have an opportunity to buy a 1903-A3 in excellent condition with one small problem. It has a National ordenance receiver.
I'm thinking of buying it($300) and making it into an 04 type gun for play with scope and turned bolt ect..

My problem is i know nothing about the National Ordenance receiver save that they were made in the 60's. Are they safe? The rest of the weapon is US GI and in very good shape. has a Rem 2 grove barrel.
Any Knowledge is welcome as i dont want to modify my original Smith Corona in any way.
Thanks.
Recon <recon@midusa.net>
Kansas, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 03:35:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.42)

Quickbow:

Sorry for jerking your chain about the pistol rounds. There used to be a guy on the council named Russ who would go berserk everytime someone would mention anything not related to pulling the trigger on a rifle. That old 9mm/45 thing made for a lot of humorous posts in the past. Reporting data is great but just pure data makes for dry reading. Since I don't have much to offer in the sniping department, I try to throw in a little humor from time to time.

As for our Russian friend, I can't see getting bent out of shape over his comments. I mean, what am I going to do...go on leave to punch his lights out? C'mon, get real. Chances are none of us will ever meet him, no way, no how. Subsequently our discussion is purely academic. Now, a smart guy will always practice OPSEC but isn't he a smart guy too? It's a two way street. He's not going to reveal any earth-shattering discoveries to us and we will reciprocate. As long as we're talking about such mundane topics as sniping, fieldcraft and politics, I don't remember the G2/DSEC guys making any prohibitions. I'll bet any intelligence collection effort in this discipline is left to the least-skillful of agents. If he blames us for the starvation of children, etc. it only means something when you take it personally and thereby give meaning to it. Every government in the world is responsible for killing people that didn't necessarily deserve it. We're talking about degrees of sin here; splitting hairs. So why piss him off? He may say something that I didn't know, just as any number of you have.

Pablito and Roger:

I received around 2100 1.3" 30 caliber jackets from J4. Thanks for your advice! I could certainly buy Sierra's best match bullets for less than what these are going to cost to make but I'm thinking I can hold the tolerances to a much higher degree since I can afford to spend more time making each bullet and my production volume will be much smaller.

Good luck to everyone. I enjoy your posts.

Sincerly,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 03:50:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.243.69.185)

Paul and Wills:

Ooops. I was kinda tired when I went through last night, and didn't catch the humor. Oh well, not like I said anything *too* stupid.

Stefan:

Not to jump in on this, or start a big sh*t fight, but in a lot of ways and essences, the US *IS* NATO. And the UN for that matter. The US is the largest contributor to both groups, both monetarily, and troop wise. The US point of view almost always ends up being the course of action NATO and/or the UN take. Without the US support, both groups would have big problems doing what they do now. Of course, without it, both groups may not get themselves into reigional conflicts that are based on age old disputes. Just my 2 pnnies.

Rich:

Is it possible your ammo is fouling badly? have you tried running a bore brush through it a couple times after you run the bore clean through?

All:

anyone even gonna touch my previous question?

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Too close to not enough in , Maryland, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 04:33:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Barrel brushes:

Not looking to start a roster war, but looking for comments on using a bronze brush for cleaning your tactical rifle. Not talking about .148" bench gun, Tactical rifles. Perhaps a factory tube, perhaps a shilen/hart/blackstar/etc. Pro, cons, bore damage, whatcha all think.
mike s <mws@ecom.net>
Peoples Republic of, Kalifornia, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 05:21:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.99)

Mike S-

On bronze bore brushes. I normally use a nylon one, and that is usually good enough for my guns, but occasionally I get some deposits that just don't wanna come out, and have used bronze ones. I have observed no damage or adverse conditions from using them. Of course I don't use them alot, and this is my own humble. Mainly used it on plinkin and hunting guns, but my hunting rifles have held thier zero and grouping through the years. Anyone else heard of anything bad from em?

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
No good ranges here , Maryland, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 05:38:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

I have just found this site,and I am very impressed!I am interrested in any info on the long range use of a Bel.FN-FAL.Any advice would be helpful.All comments welcomed,or maybe not we'll see.Thanks another sarge.
Heath <joeheath@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 06:44:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.76.85.152)
I recently purchased a rifle which I believe is a custom manufactured sniper/tactical rifle but I have not been able to find out anything more about this weapon. I am hoping someone reading my description will recognize the custom work and point me in the right direction.

The rifle is based on a Remington 700 long action possibly in .300 Winchester Mag (the barrel is not marked). There are no other marking on the metal or stock. The stock appears to be a McMillian fiberglass stock with the desert camo finish and a Harris bipod. The 26" barrel is fluted with a Krico style muzzle brake. The action is epoxy bedded and has a truly great trigger. The most distinctive feature of the rifle is a cusatom-made metal lug at the barrel/action junction that is inletted deep into the stock. The lug is made of a dark coppery colored metal (bronze?),1/4" thick, and is rectangular where it extends into the stock.

Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks
Bruce
Bruce D Weidenhamer <AuctionAZ@AOL.COM>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 08:04:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.187)


Quickbow...

I'll take a shot (pun intended) at your question. I live in a nice town in Connecticut, where the most serious crime is "Felony #1... passing gas in public", but we're about 5 miles away from Connecticut's version of the South Bronx, and East L.A. put together!
Back in '91, we had a woman mayor (Republican) that saw the writing on the wall on the Rodny King thing, and since the town's cops couldn't shoot "fer shit", she jump started a special officer program, for ex military and LE, etc, that could shoot a rifle. There were 20 of us, at a whoppin' $1 a year, plus on call pay. We never had to collect the on call pay, and this July 1st, we all got "fired" (a democrat got elected)... shit, and I needed the money... but I got to keep the M70 HB in a A2 stock!
All this is a lead to...
...A few years ago, word had it that the Klinton administration was asking if Winchester, Remington, etc, could make primers that would go dead in six months or so... knowing that if they could, all the govt had to do, was shut down the supply of ammo, and primers, and in six months "We, the people" would be effectively, disarmed!
The companies said they couldn't!
Then, word had it, that they asked the military, and the LE establishment, if they would be willing to collect guns from civilian homes, if "ordered", and about 60% said yes.
I don't know if these were true, but the rumors were banged around the town's dept, and most of the Black Hearted son of a bitchs on full time statis, said yes... and many said they looked forward to the day!

On bronze brushes... I use them on very good barrels, including benchrest grade Schneiders, and Rem custom shop BR's... some I've had for more than 20 years... they still look good, shoot good, smell good... must be good...
... but I'm sure that'll I'll be told that I shouldn't do it by everyone else!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 10:28:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.80)

I've been playing with a custom AR now for about a year. What a wonderful rig. I'm more a bench shooter and this gun reflects my attempt at making a 100 yard hole punch. She also doubles as a fine squirrel gun. 40 grain Hornady Vmax bullets make wonderful arial displays out of the little fleabags. I just found out about you folks so I'll be dropping by more often now. Too bad Jan. 1st marks the end of Ca. residents being able to purchase fine semi-auto rifles. But with 3 AR-15s and an AR-10 I'm pretty sure I'll have a wholesome source of fun untill I can afford to move to a Class III supporting state.

You can see my 1/2 MOA AR at http://exo.com/~stone/uglygun.html
Soon I'll update a picture of my AR-10 which has proved to be sub-moa capable with a 165grn Nosler Balistic Tip reload I developed for it. Best group out of it yet is 3 shots in 3/8 inch at 100 yards.
B. Douglas <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Ca. (pinko hell), USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 10:35:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.135.15.26)

super sight for dedicated hogs
longbow <glocker21@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 13:26:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.115.73)
Note on bronze brushes: Copper removing solvents eat them like candy. Stick with plastic/nylon bore brushes when using Sweets and other copper specific solvents. Or, just buy lots of bronze brushes!

Regarding the guy who shot 4 rounds in 7 hours of barrel break-in: Dude, you are overdoing it and heading towards the nut house! Clean with 2 or 3 patches, consecutive, of copper solvent. Push them once thru bore, then pull them off. Next, a patch soaked with spray brake cleaner. Push it thru, pull it off. Last, a dry patch. Shoot a round. Repeat. Use JB, USP, or Iosso bore paste every ten rounds or so during this ritual. To hell with perfectly clean patches. Just get some rounds thru that bore.

Guy who is shooting the AR15 and AR10 -- 3 shot groups? Come on!! Make it five, and let us know... :^)
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 15:13:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.49.172)

I own a .308 Savage and am looking for cheap ammunition to target practice with. I am wondering if the 7.62x54mm NATO round can be shot in my rifle. I have heard it both ways. One shop will tell me know absolutely not and the other will tell me yes it is no problem with modern rifles. Which is the correct answer?
Erik Pederson <epederson@worldnet.att.net>
Kalamazoo, MI, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 15:44:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 141.218.252.10)
Recon; i don't know anything bad about those receivers. Obviously a remake but it might or might not be Ok. Sounds like an interesting project though. $300 is a good price for a springfield 03 out here these days.
Brass brushes are ok for fouled barrels. I wouldn't scrub mostly clean barrels with a dry one but I'd doubt it would do any major harm.
Much too much about breaking in barrels. Shoot the sucker a while and then hose it out. Shoot it somemore and those 3000 fps jackets will smooth it for you eventually. Tricks is to smooth it before the gun cleaning rod wears the throat out. It's not a rocket science like some believe. More rounds will help more than more patches.
Douglas; Nice looking pieces. The muzzle device on that one is a little shall we say shocking! But....it's cool lookin!
Bruce D. I don't have a clue. sounds like custom work of some kind though.
Pablito; I remember the crap you speak of. Let me just say that if they come accross my yard in one of those black suits and hoods that badge had better be a shinin mighty bright! Course if I know they are comin I won't be there! I would view that as an attack by a foreign power on the Constituion! NATO will be the force behind it driven by our liberal friends using the NATO as a peace keeping mission to the United States to circumvent the Posse Act. Just thought I'd let the naive know what was going on!
Just cause I am paranoid don't mean they ain't out to get me!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 16:10:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
'Lito,

Sorry to hear about your locals feelings on firearms ownership but then again thats life "north of the Mason-Dixon line". Heck who knows you might like By-Gawd enough to move here.............

FWIW, Sqeaky clean bore fanatics:

I went to the range last week to try some new component lot# loads out. I had, for whatever reason, succumbed to the get it all(copper)out before I left for the range. I mean a Boltster type cleaning session wwhere the neighborhood smelled like Shooters Choice.

Well first three shots went into 4" at 100 yards REAL SCARY! I MEAN I FREAKED! Checked crown, barrel interior, chamber, fired rounds, stock bolts, scope settings, scope ring main bolts, EVERYTHING.

I then waited five minutes, calmed down, and fired another string of five shots. They clustered EXACTLY where I had previously believed to have the rifle set up [CBS dead on @ 100 yds.}
I will now go back to getting all the powder fouling and "most" of the copper fouling out and leave good enough alone.

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 16:11:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.54)

PeteR...
If it weren't for the fact that I have 1/2 custody of the coolest 7 yo son in sight, I would have moved to someplace where "snow" is just a word in the dictionary, years ago.

You ready for Carlos?? I ain't... Two guns going out to the smith on Tuesday, just got 1200 175 MK's 8# of Varget, and going through the mail order catalogue for junk I don't have... you got any extra 308 blanks?
Still paddling hard... may show up still tying my shoes, with a loading press bolted to the bumper!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 16:53:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)

Recon: Stay away from that thing. Not a good receiver.

Pab/Pete/Everyone: I have not even shot in two weeks let alone got any of the gear together. You think they will let me work on either my G Suit, sling, or rifle on the plane? Ammo is going to have to be a mix of Federal 168 and 175 Match. Not enough of either for the class and comp.

Undude/Mike
Mike M <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 17:29:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.194)

Level Serbia?!
How about leveling Indonesia?!
Every body speaks about Kosovo but what about East Timor?
The military display the severed heads of women and children.
They are killing everybody. And then there is that Indonesian sniper with quite a score made on the East Timorese people.
Maybe its time to score on the Indonesians!
Did you see those guys killing a man with machetes on LIVE TV?

Hey Marius FERREIRA, (where did that "Ferreira" name came from?!) help us!

P. Marcos
P. Marcos <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 17:52:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.65.163.253)

Un-Dude,
Yeah right, and I got all my teeth here in By-Gawd too. Mss'rs. Jarrett and Hodge let that cat outta the bag weeks ago friend!
Have ya tried Gooch or Rod on the ammo thing? It really is too bad you never switched to VARGET from that IMR 007 /E-I-E-I-OH /WHATEVER stuff you could use some of my stuff :-)

Lito,
once you get to Keyser, on friday night 10-1-99. Just look around for the dude that bears a striking resemblance to that redneck (gulp) sheriff from Live and Let Die and The Man with the Golden Gun that'll be me compelte with the Aloha shirt, black socks, sandals and one genu-wine H-S Precision surfboard.
The dude that looks like "Meathead" from Archie Bunker is Al O....

Anybody else ready to sound off for the Carlos Memorial Shoot? The clocks running dudes!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 17:56:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.181)

Any of you Carlos match guys doing the week before the match (LR III)?
Gives you plenty of time to practice and sort out your gear.
I'm looking for a spotting and drinking partner for that week. I'll buy the first round.
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 18:44:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)
PeteR...
I'm going to be down there on Sat, the week before... going to LRR-III, then Carlos. Getting there on Sat, so I can get lined up with the good lookin' sheep, before Al.O gets there and only the ugly ones are left. Give me a call when you get into town and I'll have some blind (and wooly) dates fixed up! I'll recognize Al.O... the Russian got some pictures of him standing behind ewe know what!

I'm stayin' at the Econo-Lodge... Ken Hunter (one of the webmasters here) is my teamie, and between the two of us, we may have one gun sorta working.
He's in the same spot as I am... we were both having guns built, and both of got the word that they won't be ready, so we're paddling to get other stuff ready... he looks better than I do right now... and I went and sold my PSS to pay for the new Rem 40-XB/M24.

Who on this site is going to LRR-III, and who is going to Carlos-II... Post it, or send me an e-mail.
Does anyone have some extra .308 blanks, or launching carts... there's nary a one in the state of Konnecticut.

Undude...
Don't work on the gun on the airliner... they frown on that big time...:(
Do you have any "Sand bags" ready? I'll send you a check (along with the sling) and you can send them, or bring them to the match... other wise I'll bring wheat bags, and pray it doesn't rain.

Tony...
I got a spotter/shooter, but we can fight over who buys the first one!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 19:18:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.41)

B.Rogers

Right on man. We can bring NATO in under the guise of helping to fight our drug war with us.

They can use their tanks to set up automobile safety check stops. What does “step out of the car and put your hands on the hood sound like in German”?

With their helicopter gunships high speed car chases will become a thing of the past. I can hear Americas Most Wanted’s Mike Walsh now “Criminals can’t run from a minigun”.

Welcome to the New World order. I thought the Federal Bureau of Incineration had it easy.

The marines may be the first line of defense but the American people are the last. Door to door and house to house they can only take what we give them

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 19:36:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

'Lito

I should be getting in Friday afternoon, same dungeon! [maybe earlier :-)]. You better leave Esmeralda and her sisters alone or Al O. will be in VERY rare form.

Franceso's Friday night 10-1-99? What say you - Al? Bolt? Depity? Un-Dude? Gooch? Rod? Tony?

First there was Rosie Greer and needlepoint, Now we gots Un-dude sewing slings together on an plane, in a Ghillie no less! Bet he'll make a killing selling them MDRB bags for passengers to use instead of them Marquis De'Sade airline pillows.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY , BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 19:48:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.72)

PeteR...

"Franceso's Friday night 10-1-99? What say you...?"

I was planing to go to Lucy's "Sheep Dip Café" with Al.O, but if you guys wanna get all dressed up and go fancy... hell, I'll go big time, and wear shoes too.
Yea, Francesco's is good... what time? We'll probably drag whatever is left over, and still alive, from LRR-III with us. Call me at Econo-Lodge on Thurs night, and I'll let you know how many are with us!

You got 308 blanks, Mano???

'lito...

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin' for Love in West "By Gawd" Virginy..., USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 20:08:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.41)

I'm getting mine from AL O. If he gets in tonight and hits the roaster meybee hes gotta source....

ANYBODY have a solid source for blankety-blanks?

depends on your "final exam" 19-20:00 hrs?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 20:32:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.39)

Does anyone know where I can find a couple of the older Navy round count books? These are the books they issued at Parris Island for tracking rounds fired through service/match rifles. Just need something this simple to track rounds through the tube of a new bbl.

Ding@stev.net

Ding <ding@stev.net>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 21:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.169.139.28)

Gentlemen,
I have a problem that I would like to share with you so I may get pointed in the right direction on this situation.
My personal sniper rig has been camo painted for quite a while now, and I have never had to use my own rifle while on duty.
But now after a switching departments, my rifle is better than the varmint rigs that they use for department sniper rifles.
They are allowing me to use my own rifle if I so choose to do so, but the camo paint has to come off.
"Smith, we will not have ANY weapon camo painted camo in MY department!!!!" Was the way it was told to me.

Can someone tell me what would be a good way to remove the paint off of my rifle, stock, and leupold M3 scope without removing the flat black finnish that it first was?

Larry Smith.

L. Smith <none @ this time. com>
Co., USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 21:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.75.144.35)

Rice in those bags men! Gooch will keep you crawlin for days being the saddist he is. I hear he has Lito, and Pete and Al down for a reenactment of Carlo's famous 2 day crawl. Al did you ever try to low crawl with a VC coolie hat? It's the black PJ's that he is hung up on!
You will find that they don't call em "DRAG bags" for nothin over there in giny! Gosh I pity you poor guys!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 21:35:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Eric Re: 7.62 x54 NATO Round
Eric, there aint no such round. Maybe someday when Paskz wakes up and sees the light and joins up, Nato might include that round in their inventory but not until then. Even then you will have a hard time closing the bolt on the 7.62 x 54 Russian round if your rifle is chambered for 308!

Recon, Re: National Ordanance 03 receiver,
I agree with Mike M. Stay away from it.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 22:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Good last day, collegues.

I have to answer some questions, and make some quick advises. Something like a Testament. I have reached my extraction point, or perhaps the map is over.

Undudeski
>Back to slings for non commies only. No use giving them anything they can us or steal.

Hehe, "20 Years of SWAT duty". Sound like diagnosys.

HK
>You have a lot of targets: Eltcin and Co.

Lots, we keep it in mind.

Tony, chickmagnet:
>I was wrong im my last post and i acted immaturely.

You grow quickly.

Jeff Babineau
>to demonize the Serbs for their attrocities against the Kosovars simply because our leaders want to justify their military actions.

"You say it", as Christ said.

Jim
>Please, Paskz, where did you learn English? Is your keyboard Cyrillic? I have met a few Russian and Ukrainian immigrants here in the Northwest. By and large, they are gentlemen. Most had a fondness for literature and poetry. Do you share that?

I have high grade technical education, I am diplomized physician (physics of metals), I have studied literature, poetry, medicine, philosophy, logic, psychology, psychopatology, explosives treatment, buiding demolishion technics, pharmacie, snipership, german, latine, religion, biology, SAM-sites control, math, analisys, chemistry, communication, computers, programing, criptographia, history and so many things I do not want to say about. That was my life-long blood-sweat course of being who I am.

Strange, I never has studied English. But I have to read many books, so English is the need.

>Know your enemy. Hey, could you E-mail a training manual to me?

We do not use manuals; just some nomogrames. Our snipers training course is three years of fire, water and brass pipes. The only manual is what the trainer says. That's making quite big difference with 40-60 days? Nobody will like to be a sniper student - if I say what that means. But when you have finished it - believe me, I am able to kick almost any ass, with any advanced equipment, will it be 1 MOA or 0 MOA with my SVD or anything I will get, if Fortune smiles. I am not proclaiming me as supernatural, just I am sure of myself.

Of course we are not ordianary millitary snipers - don't believe to find me guarding tank. However if I had to guard tank, I will.

Now we translate some US manuals and tracking all activities. We have good library on US school, and studieng all you write, film and produce.

>Enjoy your reactors, and have a nice day!

Thank you. Radiation leads to producing such people as me. We are not commies, we are muties.

Partison
>own Screwed up Governments and We Americans will worry about ours.

So, begin to worry.

B. Rogers
>Paskz; Pour yourself another Wermuth! As we rednecks say! "Let the good times roll!"

I never miss to drink with good people. Rednecks of the World, unite and take over! :) We are much more sincere as our governments, media and all the shit around - so we have a chance.

Heikki Juhola
>SU army killed my uncle and my family has suffered quite much after the war started by SU. If I can tolerate Pask(z) the you should too.

By the starange twist of fate, I am half-finn. So Suomi for me is not like far island. When I drunk heavely - I say usualy that "as Suomi was one of the two nations, who realy kicked us - that is Suomi and Japan, both in regional conflicts. I am Russian-suomi crossbreed, so.. my wife must be Japanese to produce The Best Soldier Ever Existed" When I think so I understand, that it is time to stop drinking Porto, usualy after 2 botles. Suomi is tolerant, very beautifull, nonambitious country. Perfect choice to be born; not for me, however - too patient and nonambitious. Sorry, just interesting: finns know anecdots about themselves? Eh, by the way, who has commanded Suomi army in this campaign? Manergheim, I think?

Al Ostapowicz
>As long as they have nuclear capabilities and offer these little toys to the international market,

As long as we have nuclear missiles - there is a chance to not be attacked by NATO (some scenaries I can afford to you), as was attacked Yugoslavia. About offering "little toys" - that is pure media speculations, be sure. I know personaly some people from US Nonproliferation office, so be sure - they eating US money dare; have you read "Our Man in Havana"? So that is perfect model for this service.

But why not to melt all this bombs? Why you prefer to have them? To be all-the-world-do-gooders? So why you try us to offer to abandon our programs?

>with a couple of 9mm in the back of his head for whatever reason

Problem exists. Do you know, that criminals has hired one sniper - realy genious one! Two his (or her) kills were perfectly planed - both in very complex urban conditions, he shots through rooftops of moving cars. Perfect work, for both used SVD (Yugoslavian version). Criminals are strong because of criminals sitting in Kremlin.

>even though you might be relative of mine, there

Nobody from my family has ever emigrated - we prefered to fight for what we think is right in our country.

>Nobody admits to being a card carrying commie any longer.

I even was not Komsomoletz. As you know what it is - you can imagine the last.

>He is as much an unwilling victim of his news service as we are of ours...

Our media gets money from the same sources as yours. So don't even think that something I sayed here, I heard from media. Come and see. They licking asses, for whom, who pay money. As US pays money - so US will be served with highest quality ass-licking. As Roman Pope will - he will be served, too. Same freedom of press, as yours.

The only media I trust - my own media and little own "agency". Because I do not pay them.

>There is nothing wrong with the US government that the US citizens cannot fix.

Disputable topic. Try to fix themselves, report results.

About last message, from Netherlands. I have selected some words of wisdom from my poor head, but I found later them unprintable. Let me introduce, what I think is printable.

What makes me wondering - the man proclaims some speculations, tells that I am "full of IT" and after that wants to discuss that PRIVATELY. If so, he must PRIVATELY write to me, what he has writen PUBLICALY. I have tried to put some 9mm in computer, but my computer does'nt seems to send them by e-mail. There is no need to disscus personaly nothing among us.

But some short remarks will follow.

>I haven't seen NATO aircraft INTENTIONALLY target Serb villages

Look, something can happen UNINTENTIONALY. I feel it inside me. Something bad.

>Result of THAT: WE KICKED THEIRS!!!

We, the Mighty Herbsmoking Addition to NATO! "We kicked". Re-read - and try to find material for comic show: "Tulip has kicked the Planet". And about loses: your rumors has not lieing - look for actual uses over some special sources. I understand, that during war all counterparts intentionaly deminish own looses and gigantize the enemy looses. But look, that is filmed and documented, and can be proven. The loses of NATO were too facinating, compared to what they have done: NOTHING (except new coil of hatred to US so warmely poured into before ignorant people). I am proud of Yugoslavia.

Because:
>but in a lot of ways and essences, the US *IS* NATO

Today albanians will robe you - and kill your officers; enjoy, enjoy! Why? Because of the nature of facts. Want to prove? Try to purchase ;) one albanian family - you will find that practice exciting. Have you not enough kurds in Netherlands? So Kurds are saints compared to poor, little, peacefull, heroine-traders and muslim extremmists Albanians. Kosovo is Holy Serbian Land. Tito's crimes against Serbs lead to Albanians has moved to Kosovo, and begun fuck so rapidly, as rabbits to grab the land. Read history and enjoy.

We, Russians don't think to have second Russia. France does not need to have another France. Germans are happy to live in Germany. BUT ALBANIANS CAN NOT LIVE WITHOUT HAVING SECOND BRAND-NEW ALBANIA.

Why, instead of helping Albania to be good land to live, you have bombed Serbia, do-gooders? And I will answer - if you find it difficult - you are not do-gooders.

That was pure dirty affair. Enough said.

>SREBRENICA

Wow! Do you find nothing interesting in that on the "mass-shot sites" there is no empty shels? Do you find something interesting in fact, that bodies were moved? Do you find something interesting in what corps has different term of death? And some of the has died for months, and then just put together? And that many don't wear any violentive death marks? That photos wear a signs of retouche and montage?

And last - just for brightening your knowledge about mass-graves: there exist no row massgraves graves, accurately placed and marked.

"How to do massgraves: a practical approach" (C) Paskz:

"..take one T-72 or T-80. Collect all corpses together. Go the tank roll over them. After 5 minutes of rotating you will get a very comprehensive massgrave. Roll out and enjoy" Cruel? Yes, man. But that is true - this is wartime practice, not the CNN horror-propoganda for householders.

Most anecdotical was "torture chamber" - XXX video about some tools found in abondoned Serbian Police precinct. Heh.. what the low-quality but well payed proffesionals work for secret services.. They have purchased everything in garrison sex-shop? Serbians do not use base-ball beats! That is allusion to US practice - Serbs do not play baseball.. Look for other funny information around the world. Including, and I am happy to say that, in US too.

I am not pretending to say, that Serbs are Santa Clauses. And thank God, they are not. They fighting for Holy Kosovo Field and the Mother of Serbia. KLA are bastards, earning half money from heroine and taking the second half from NATO - arms, instructors, devices; nice friend for you choose!. I only am glad, that this heroine will poison your country - that will be good price.

On the war is like on the war. So perhaps some civilians and were killed - that is sins of those who has them killed. And if that is done intentionaly, I think these soldiers must be imprisoned. Were that Serbs, Albanians, Russians or Santa Clauses.

"Associated press" has reported another killing of Serbs by Albanian KLA - what your friend has done to prevent killing of that 65-year Serb women? I know, pisskeepers just sitting in armored vehicles and watch - there is dangerous to walk outside. And why? - let KLA kills Serbs, unwanted Albanians - that is the plan to have yet another serving dog on NATO side, yes? But bastard dogs will byte and his masters.

>There, I've said it!

I too.

>If you want to, please e-mail me on the adress below.

I have no personal disgust to you. But I don't believe that is good idea, with such ambitions. I'm getting too nervous.. Must practice some DM from AK-72U - that kind of mediation is very usefull...

Credits and wishes part

Advise 1. Goes to your proffesional instructors. Never say that your weapon is perfect. You know, special school of army exploit such practice as uncovering barbarism, which is in all of us. This is the best basement for all soldiers proffesional skills. For what fights barbarian? For women, for horses, lands and weapon of the enemy. So if our soldiers will know, that your side has perfect weapon they will do anything to get it. Your soldiers will be too civilized (in this aspect) and wil not share this barbarian motivation. Results? We will fight better, as we will share the prae-father power, the power of The Past Generations.

Advise 2. Goes to young people. Educate yourself, you will find it interesting.

Advise 3. Educate yourself - and we will be much more friends, than enemies.

Advise 4. To those, who wish to be snipers. Practise eat-the-dirt technic in your education, do not confuse yourself with wrong theories of clean operation. Pay special attention, that after "40 to 60 hours" course of training, despite of any results in score, you have no right to call themself sniper. Sniper is not "One shot - one kill". Sniper is "Years of Shooting - Years of Killing"

Thanks to good people I met here. Thanks for advises, opinions and suggestions. I will answer all e-mail and continue conversation, if you wish, privately. Later I will publish URL of our sniper site, and our disscussion forum. I think, that will be good act, to join our disscussions. If anybody of ours will say anything stupid-abusing, he will be fired out - discipline, you know...

Sorry for tortures with my English

Pour whisky, or what you like, and lets say: "Na zdoroviye!". Let this gray dawn never rise. Cheers!

So, farewell, people.

Sniper (Instructor) Paskz
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 23:19:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Erik...
The proper designation for the Nato round is 7.62x51... and yes, you can use it in your Rem 700 for practice... and if you reload, the brass will take about 1 to 1.5 grains less powder than the manuals recommend. Don't expect it to be very accurate... it may be very good, and it may be worse than awful!

Larry...
The finish on the Leupold is black anodized, a chemical version of Aluminum "rust" and is extremely hard. It don't come off real easy!
Use a paint remover for the scope and rifle, and wash them both off with mineral sprits, then soappy water, and oil everything on the rifle.

DON'T GET THE STUFF ON THE LENSES... the lenses are sandwiches of 2 or 3 pieces of class, "glued" together, and the glue can dissolve with some solvents, particularly with acetone and toluene, which are common in paint removers.

On the stock, some of them are impervious to most chemicals, and some of them are just shitty plastic. Put some "Water Soluble" paint remover inside the barrel channel, and check what happens after 5 or 10 minutes... wipe it off, and see if the stock looks melted where the stuff was... If it looks OK. try a little bit on the outside, where you won't see it... often there is an outer coat on a stock of a different stuff than what the stock is made of! Wipe the stuff off after 5 or 10 minutes, and inspect... If all looks good, go ahead and clean it (with 7 hail Marys)... and wash with warm water, and lots of strong dish detergent.

Next time consider "Camy Jammies", Gun Jammies, or Snake skins... it's so easy to change the pattern with the seasons!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 23:54:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.71)

Mr. Smith,

Why not spray paint everything flat black? Grey, Fleckstone?
What are "acceptable" colors to you Lead Officer?
If you have time, patience, and lots of ventilation, non abrasive scotch-brite pads, and PPE gloves and get some neat stuff called "M-1 Remover"(available at most decent hardware stores) will scrub off the metal surfaces.
Be careful with the stock if synthetic, easier to scuff sand and repaint than strip.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 10, 1999 at 23:54:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.179)

S(I) Paskz,
why is farewell? It is always OK to have another opinion. (Besides it is international site)
By your words you are not an army sniper. (3 years of training? 2 years for private in Russia)
Anyway, the scopes for SVD. You have mentioned about 8x scope. Are they manufactured by factory or made custom?
HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 00:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)
PeteR, I represent that cleaning remark!

Weather sucks! Work sucks! SORT disater team is on first callout for the East coast! SORT NMRT team is on 24 hour standby til January 1! What next, an earthquake? JEEEEEZZZ!!!!!!!!!!! I want my MOMMA!!!

Floyd and his sisters are gonna screw up my annual fishing trip. Can probably fish for king mackeral in Raleigh after this big muther comes through. Have you seen the size of this thing? Damn. Could even reach By Gawd West Virginy!

Bolt crawls back in hole hoping this is a dream.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 01:42:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.22)

Boltster Dude...
Come to Carlos II, and you can shoot, and fish between the relays!!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 01:54:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)

Bolt,
I second 'Litos comments theres a great lake at the top of Mt Storm that glows green at night. Kinda like fishing with night vision gear on.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 02:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.57)

Paskz; Maybe I'm a bit older than some here or maybe it's because I'm just a poor backwoods redneck and don't understand the ways of great bureaus and organizations. But your words chill me to the bone! It is the fear you may be right that bothers me! I've lost many friends in foolish wars and some misguided operations you speak of and it is my only course to sit and wonder why it all has to be. I am no Hippie either and no peacenik to be sure but it all seems to serve the Aristocrat and the expense of the surf!
I find our encounter facinating and informative.
I've always thought it better to study the so called "enemy" than to hate him. As you said if we knew the enemy better perhaps he would disappear from our enemies list. I invite you to stay around and see what we can learn from each other! IF your any kind of enemy your one I would respect for it is my enemy's knowledge that scares me even more than a great marksman with a good rifle! There are many great men in this country and on this forum that disagree on politics and where this country is going and why! Everyone sees from a different view point. It has been very interesting seeing yours!
I fear the distrust and parnoia in America more than I fear it's enemys from abroad! Even my own is a very loathsome thing!
A good man in this country once said that if would not be our enemy from abroad but our Zealots from within that would bring this country down! His words chill me too!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 03:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Pablito-

Thanx for the info. Chilling thought. I suppose it just proves the point that most LE personel are not gun types. I wonder what they would say if they were told they would not have the guns either, even on duty? Well, if the sh*t ever flies that way, you all can hole up with me, I'd be proud to hole with any of you all.

Larry Smith-

Try Carberator cleaner. take paint off anything metal. Might not want to use it on a synthetic stock though. Check first.

Mike Wood-

A big AMEN to that one.

I just wonder how much unfortunate bloodshed would occour (spelling is off I know, but I'm a wee tipsy) if the guns were oputlawed, and they tried to take em..... Frightning concept.

Quickbow
Quickbow <Quickbow@hotmail.com>
Wanting to get out of, Maryland, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 04:00:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.11)

Howdy.
I've been reading the comments here, and decided that you guys could probably lend me a hand, so I thought I would ask a question or two.
I have a Springfield M1A that I'm decking out to a M-25 type (or a cross between that and a M-21). I've got the ARMS #18 base on there now, and I'm looking for some way to connect the scope with this base, with a quick detach set up. I have the ARMS #19A quick detach base, but can't find really low rings. I like the look of the Badgers, but they stick up too high. The only other think I know of is the ARMS quick detach rings. I really would like to use that #19A base though, to protect the scope from flying brass somewhat. Any and all suggestions would be appricated!

Gooch, you any relation to some Gooches that I know in Kansas? Just that Gooch is a kind of unique name (I got one like that too).

On the pistol front (I've been watching the 9 vs 45 debate) I've done extensive shooting with both calibers and have the following to add:
If you don't have one of these, you really ought to have a good reason!
1. Springfield Armory/Colt 1911A1. If you can get one that REALLY works ALL the time, this is the way to go! I have both, and slightly prefer the Springfield, but getting one that's ALWAYS reliable isn't a box stock item.
2. Beretta 92. I don't have any experience with the 96, but will soon. The 92 (I have an older one, a real 92 with a SAFETY on the FRAME for cocked and locked carry, as well as a newer F model) is a really reliable piece. Jumps in the hand more than the Glock, but really good. I used to compete with this, but my splits weren't as fast as the Glock. Didn't embarrass myself with it though!
3. CZ-75, preferably not a B model. The more I shoot this, the more I like it. Nice trigger out of the box, accurate, and well made! As I get more experience with this one, I will let you know. So far I've only shot it about 5000 rounds, and I haven't competed with it, so I don't have a really good reading on it yet.
4. Browning Hi-Power. Same things go for this one as the 45 auto. If you get one with a good trigger and great reliability, it's a keeper!
5. Glock 17. I'm currently competing in IDPA competition with this one. Been really good for almost a year now (and I'm doing pretty well with it too). Accurate, could use a 3.5# trigger connector, utterly reliable. This thing is nothing short of magnificent as it hasn't jammed once.

The idea that you can't reload 9's isn't exactly true. I use winchester primers and 115 grain JHP's, with 8.2 grains Hodgdon's HS-6 in Federal 'FC' brass, many times reloaded! This goes at 1370 over my Oehler. Reloaded thousands of them in both the Beretta and the Glock. I run the Hi-Power and CZ lighter out of choice because they don't do well accuracy wise with that round. The Beretta loves it, Glock really likes it. Just a note, this is the TOP END load in a Speer manual of old, so you better work up to it EASY, but perfectly safe in mine!

Really enjoy reading you guy's thoughts on things, just took me a while to want to introduce myself.
Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 04:34:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.134)

Paskz,

Damn, su much denial in so little words. Sebrenica never happened, huh? Thanks for enlightening me...

If you don't mind, I'll ponder a bit now. You changed my view on Russian people. I thought you could be friendly...

Yhere's a lot I'd like to say on this, but I won't. To emotional.

L8er dudes!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Watching east, The Netherlands - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 06:48:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.192.64)

I've shot so many 5 shot groups under an inch at a hundred yards with my built up AR-15 that the challenge is shooting under 1/2 inch. Best yet is 5 shots around 3/8 inch. Haven't gotten quite used to firing between the heartbeats. This gun devours any decent quality factory ammo you give it and most all of it goes well under the one inch mark. It's a great rifle but the next one I build will be a carbine with lighter profile barrel. This turd of mine tips the scale around 17 pounds with it's 24 inch bull barrel. Like I said it's mainly a bench gun and a long range squirrel destroyer. Longest flea bag popped was at the local range when a squirrel made the mistake of showing himself by the 400yard steel ram. I'm disapointed it took me three shots to hit him but only having shot this rifle for around 4 months left me with no clue where the bullet was dropping at 400 yards. Now that I've had the rifle for nearly a year I've learned what to expect from my gun and the only factor left is wind and not so much elevation adjustment. The scope that I'm using on this rifle is a Leupold 6.5-20 Long Range. I love the side parallax knob it's spoiled the heck out of me. A local gun shop has a brand new Leupold 3.5-10 power Mil Dot in either the M1 or M4 I can't remember which. The kicker is that the shop ordered it for some guy who changed his mind so they have it marked down to get rid of it. Price is listed at $699. If I get the cash soon enough I'm there to beat the next guy.

As for the AR-10 it also is 5 shot sub-moa capable. I've shot a few 5 shot groups around 3/4 inch and several slightly over 1 inch. This rifle has standard handguards, no freefloat on this one and is fitted with a slightly better than average AR trigger and hammer. The AR-15 has a no creep trigger that breaks around 3 1/2lbs. while the AR-10 is hovering around 5lbs. with noticable creep.
165 grn Noslers work the nicest while I've done pretty well with 168 grn Hornady and Sierra match bullets. So far the only powders I've used in this rifle are H322, H355, and Varget. Haven't been back to the reloading bench lately to try more loads. Scope used on this rifle is an old Bausch & Lomb Elite 4000 6-24. I'm looking to replace this with a 4.5-14 some day.
B. Douglas <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Ca(liberal heaven), USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 08:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.135.15.26)

Bravo...

On the 9mm vs .45 debate??? Man, I musta been really hungover... I missed it and can't find it, pagin' back! Whew, I ain't gonna go with her any more!

Was the debate between 9mm and .45, or 1911 vs Beretta vs Browning HP?
If it is Cartridges... the social interaction in Miami '89 tought us all something worth remembering... the 9mm is definitly "Very light in the loafers!" Hit 'em hard and often!

If it's between 1911 vs Browning 1935 vs Beretta vs Glock... that's dumb. More "My gun is better than your gun".
You need a reliable gun that fits your hands so you can point shoot, and the fires the biggest goddamn cartridge you can handle... period!
(I vote for the Colt 10mm Delta... it's "better than your gun!" :)

Who said you can't reload 9mm... about 10 quadrillion guys are reloading the stuff "jes fine"... even for MP5's

On your M1A... You can use the A.R.M.S. lever rings (or the Leupold QRW rings) directly on the #18 base, and bypass the #19 adaptor base, which was designed to allow Night Vision Scopes (AN/PVS2 and AN/PVS4) to be quickly interchanged. This would bring you about 3/4" lower. You could also use the Badgers directly also, but you would give up the Quick Release feature.

I've got an SA M21 and it throws the brass at 1:30 to 2 o'clock, fairly straight out, and is so reliable that I could probably catch the stuff in a garbage can at 15 feet... you shouldn't have any trouble with brass hitting the scope. If you do, get the gun looked at.

I don't know the M25 stock, but the M21 has about 3" of "up" on the cheek piece to use the AN/PVS4, and scope height shouldn't be a problem.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 11:14:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62)

Just for information purposes. Those wishing to load combat grade pistol ammo need to use a "taper crimp" die. Also incorporate a test die to be sure that the round does not exceed chamber specifications. These are available from Midway and other suppliers and will prevent large cases from jamming you up and often will prevent stove piping altogether. They are well worth your time if you want your gun to go off each time you pull the trigger. May I say a word about Glocks on a diet of reloads. The striker can be critical and may be a problem unless the round is seated exactly right. Too much crimp (narrowing of the mouth and the wrong shaped bullets can go to far forward in the chamber and be missed by the striker (firing pin). If this happens expect to come up last in the shoot out. For this reason I would not advise shooting reloads (very few LE types do) in Glocks at all. I do in my .40 but I always carry the factory stuff if things are apt to get serious. The same thing is possible in other guns but not as likely due to the unique striker in the glock system. I have heard at least one department that changed guns because of this little problem. (couldn't shoot reloads reliable for practice). As far as I know...Black Hills remanufactured ammo does not suffer from the problem. I should also say that a taper crimp die may worsen the conditon but it doesn't help much to have a gun with a round jammed in the cylinder. Better to have a misfire and hand eject than get a stuck round that won't go off.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 13:24:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

'Lito and Bill,

Right on with combat loads and techniques. I went to a taper crimp 15 years ago and have not turned back. It made a magical difference with OEM 1911 type pistols, W-W 231, and #68 H&G style projectiles.
You old farts remember them, the unthroated ones.........

Dunno on the Glocks and super neutron-Teuton-loads, but I have this scary premonition that deck of cards may be dealt to me quite soon. Can't be any harder to shoot than a H&K PSP, right Torsten? ;-)

I found 2 lbs of Varget today, all is well in Big City By-Gawd West Virginny Yee-Haaah

Later Gators

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 14:53:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.79)

Non-fuctioning Glocks on reloads: Bill R.'s right on concerning his assesment on the use of reloads in these types of pistols.One must use some caution while reloading for these type pistols.

I had the very similar thing happen to me with my .40 S&W Sigma pistol (S&W rip off of Glock).The striker assemblies of these two pistols are very similar in design.

Some of the striker hits on the primers appeared to be too light and in some cases way off the centre of the primers.Evidence of which I believe supports Bill's assertions.

Part of my problem I believe may be that the cast bullets I was using were possibly a little soft, perhaps compounding the problem by not offering a whole lot of resistance to the brass during the crimping process.You could visibly see this.

Further evidence of possible too soft lead was the very excessive leading experienced in less than 50 rds. fired.I had the loads pretty hot to begin with, so no doubt this was a factor as well.

Anyways, Bill is correct.Just use some basic caution in the reloading process and you should be good to go.

HOGDON 335 USERS !!! (now that I've got your attention, heh!,heh!) Can you tell me if the stuff is any good for reloading .223 Rem. with bullet weights in the 68-69 gr. range. I'm considering buying some bulk W844 (H335 type) powder and want to know if this stuff is reliable with the heavier bullet weights.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 15:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.176.68.140)

Jeff B,

Blast lists H-335 starting at 20.0 gr and working up for 63 gr to 80 gr projectiles in .223 Remington. Hope that helps!!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 16:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.77)

Paskz/Ivan one thing to say dudesky E..S..A..D.. Since you know so much about America and its Police you should know what it means. You can search all the Police Departments in our country and not find torture chambers anywhere. That is one major difference between our countries. As to how we are viewed in the world. When was the last time you were invited to the great Afgan Land? I am sure a few folks there would welcome you with open arms and some more long range tactics agaisnt your highly trained/Hah snipers. Good bye we are not friends. Someone once said repsect your adversaries. Know them and understand them. Study hard as we will, I doubt you will except being second string in the world for long.

Sorry Marius for the direct post toward the Russian but enough is enough

Mike
Mike M <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 17:47:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.54)

Gentlemen- Please excuse the off subject post, but I am seeking information on/ experience with/ problems with Olympic Arms AR15 9mm upper reciever assemblys and magazines (converted stens). Thank you in advance.
John Hunt <john_762@hotmail.com>
Mc Kinney, Tx, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 18:17:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.197.16)
I am reloading 168's w/ fed.brass , since it is easy to get & its free. Is it any reason that I never read about federal brass being used? Nearly all articles mention ww or lapu.brass.

Also,my neck bushing size is .337, my measurement on fed 168 is .339,
is this enough tension for timed repeat firing?

Thanks for any help!!
RJ Adams <banshee@kopower.com>
Kosciusko, Ms, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 18:25:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.150.35)

RK Adams...

There is nothing wrong with Fed brass, I'm loading 1000 this week.

I use .336 bushing, there's no real difference between that and your .337. I loaded one Fed 308 case 27 consecutive times with a heavy load at the range, and it's still in the batch.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 20:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.124)

Good day, collegues.

Hm.. That’s not the good practice to say farewell and then return. But I have to do it, despite a significant loss of reputation. I was and am not abused in any kind - just I was thinking that my input will not be good to entire forum, because I am unproffesional in Western rifles and other equipment you might be interested - thus my input will interfere with what people real want to know. But I have recieved a significant ammount of letters from audithory - and now feel shame - so, if you like I stay - to me that is also interesting. If not - write to webmaster, and if I recieve the letter from him, asking me to leave - I will leave immediately.

So lets return to our irons.

HK
>Anyway, the scopes for SVD. You have mentioned about 8x scope. Are they manufactured by factory or made custom?

Actualy now, as many people buy SVD for recreational and hunting purposes (disputable choice to have military sniper weapon to hunt the boars, however) many our so-called after-conversion factories are producing scopes for that category of users. However, and I can say it with perfect knowledge of subject - most of these scopes are shit. They are producing for unproffesionals, reach people with overweight and very humorous opinions about snipership. They usualy fall down on the range after first recoil (or get funny rubberband)

Mainly all these scopes are changable zoom factor. Personaly I do not like CZF scopes - I have been teached not to touch scope during operation. And beat everyone, who will atempt to touch my rifle. Disputable topic is this good or bad to have Changable Zooming Factor scope - I believe that it grants not so much benefits and gives some problems. The other strangeness - these amateurs prefer to have scope with enormous zoom factor - up to 20! Can you imagine what the shit that is? Hubble telescope? To hunt martians on their planet? Or to kill flies on the moon?

The second - if even they have good optics they are produced from some material which only for enemies I wish - plastic (hehe) or cheap thin aluminium alloy tubes. Mounting of these scopes is also with many sins - I think after some shots from SVD, relatively light but powerfull rifle, generating heavy recoil, scope will point to some point, where probably treasures lie, but not where the next bullet will hit.

So enough with this scrap - don’t buy it - you know self what a good scope looks like.

So, to the good scopes. I have seen a new model of PSO-1 successor - the 8x PSO-type scope. It also has internal Ir-det, and is perfectly made. All features are saved - the POST-type convenient reticle (“students! - you must see face of the enemy”), simple human-figure range estimator, red-black switchable backlight, winter cold option. The new features I’ve seen was mil-dot analogue scale and covenient BDC, specialy tuned for SVD rifle charachteristics. The optics is bright and clear. Stainless steel casing and very durable and stable mounting - I pay special attention to this part - during operation any jokes with mounting can be dangerous. So that scope is real artwork - the best I’ve seen before - it is modern in style, but with WWII traditions live, and all the necessary electronics added.

I don’t own one :( My friend, enthusiast of finding everything, that can be called ‘scope’ has buyed it from the sources I don’t know. It is millitary product, dated 1997. Wooden case, manual on the yellow-gray toilet paper with just invisble letters on it, star as a symbol of quality - I know that packaging style well - that is not commercial version. I think that these scopes are producing in small amounts for the need of special forces, as an upgrade option. Any tries to find them later were failed. I use 6x optics, stealed from SV-5 Mosin, and am happy, but the new PSO is shocking good. My friend has bought it for $50, with mounting. Good price for good thing, I think.
Now to the other things

In Maj. Plaster book I have seen an article about Ultra Heavy Snipership. So, I’ve seen in our media a report of one Russian sniper in Dagestan, who has field-rebuild heavy machine-gun (or light fast canon, if you wish) for sniping use. He has 5 confirmed kills for the report day. One Chechen was realy surprised, when half-pound bullet has hit him at a distance of 2300 meters. Nice shot. Poor Chechen.

P.S. Told - done. So visit our newly opened English forum of our website, http://www.sniperterritory.8m.com/conference.htm
feel like at home
P.S. 2 Sorry if I have mentioned our site, our small site never will concurent with SniperCountry.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 22:15:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

S(I)Paskz,
I have a few questions for you if you don't mind.
I have a Finnish M-39 with a Russian PU scope mounted on it. It was some chore to get the PU mount on that hex receiver but I managed.
What is you opinion of the old PU scope compared to other scopes of that time? It seems to work fine for me, but the movement of the horizontal sidebar when moving my eye up and down to check for parallax is quite annoying. I swear that if I could move my head fast enough, those flapping horizontal bars would lift the rifle off of the sandbags. Is this normal? Also I was wondering just where should the Post be when the elevation is set to a short range zero? I would think it should be in the center of the sight picture but it looks like the scope was made so that when zeroed for short range the post is way up in the top half of the sight picture. Also, I was wondering just what the elevation dial was calibrated for, (light or heavy bullets) and how much windage change should one mark change the point of impact at 100 meters?
Any information about these old scopes would be appreciated.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 23:23:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
I am currently looking into purchasing an AN/PVS-2 from NAIT. They have a good price on them at $650. I hear that the PVS-2 has better resolution than the PVS-4 but is substantially larger. Have any of you guys had experiences with NAIT and with the PVS-2? They say that they're ELCAN mounting system will return to zero after swithcing with your day optic. I want to use this unit on my McMillan M40 rifle, swapping between it and my L&S M1LR day scope.I am currently using MK4 rings and bases.At what range are these effective on say a coyote size and man size target? Any words of advice from the military types out there? What about the other low cost units like AMT etc.?
Thanks,
Out here...
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Saturday, September 11, 1999 at 23:52:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.122)
I understand that you guys are getting all excited 'bout your up-coming trip to "West By God." Since I was raised in "them thar" parts (I have water-skied in Mount Storm Lake), thought you might enjoy a little home grown humor.....

A nice young city couple was walking through downtown Keyser looking for antiques when a long bearded hillbilly jumped out from behind a stone wall. He was holding a brown and white ceramic jug with three XXX's painted on it in his left hand and a shot gun in his right. The wife let out a little scream and hid behind her husband. The hillbilly looked them both over for a second then tossed the jug to the man and leveled his shot gun at the couple. "Drink!" ordered the hillbilly. "I can't drink this," protested the man " I know this is what you mountain people call MOONSHINE!! One drink of this rot-gut and it'll make me drunker than a skunk...I'll be higher than John Denver's voice !!!"

"DRINK!!!" ordered the hillbilly again (this time cocking the hammer on the shotgun) OK, OK.. said the man as he took a drink, staggered a little and let out a slight yelp. "Hand me back the jug" said the hillbilly who pulled the cork out of the bottle with his teeth and spit it on the ground, sniffed the bottle's contents, licked his lips and leered back at the petrified couple with his one good eye. Then he threw the shotgun to the man and said.. "Now - you point the gun at me and order me to drink."

True story...

Couple of survival tips while in Almost Heaven: Never eat pizza unless it is from a well known pizza franchise.. Don't eat ramps around friends and above all NEVER TRUST A SHEEP. They lie.

PS: If you don't know what ramps are, then too bad city slickers!!!
Kim Hunter <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 01:53:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Given the image that most LE sniper work takes place at under 100 yds and most commonly in highly populated urban areas what about sub-caliber or small caliber suppressed or un-suppressed surgical work using heavy small caliber projectiles(such as 60gr .22 lr)?
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 02:07:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.21)
I just picked up a Leupold M1 Long range military scope today to replace the springfield 3rd gen on my .300 win mag. I got it home and discovered there's no provision for mounting a sunshade on it. Most of my shooting is in the desert without much cover and I find that a sunshade really cuts the glare for early morning or late afternoon shots into the sun. What do I use for a sunshade on this scope. Preferably something durable.

Another Pat
another Pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 03:30:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

Another question while I'm here. While I was in the gun shop today I saw a CZ 550 in 416 rigby, new for a reasonable price. This would appear to be a magnum mauser action with some sort of european scope mounting system as part of the receiver. It seems to me that this might be a good choice for building up a .338 Lapua without refinancing the farm. Anybody know anything good about this action. The finish wasn't too well done, but the action was smooth and it had a factory single set trigger that felt pretty good.

another Pat
another Pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 03:41:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

I RECENTLY ACQUIRED A SET OF 30MM REDFIELD RINGS AND I AM LOOKING ALL OVER THE PLACE FOR A SET OF ONE INCH INSERTS.

DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF A SOURCE BESIDES "A.R.M.S. INC."? THEY HAVE A SET BUT IT ONLY FITS MARK 4 TYPE RINGS FOR $45.00.

bada bing <stocktip@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 04:45:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.246.102.152)

Bruce E,

If you mean Aguila's 60gr .22lr subsonic round,you might find it will not stablise in normal .22lr twist's.Go to SoundTech's website for more data,you could try some match ammo,(as a lot is subsonic) or try Lapua's Scoremax .22lr,it's subsonic and heavy (48gr),and is accurate.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 09:10:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.240)

Paskz; Your probably right in your choice of 6X optics on a fixed power scope. I have at least one 6X scope that is quite adequate for anything. Here in America we do have a fettish for higher power scopes. Only the long range target shooters tend to use fixed power scope in the range of 20-36 power. Many shooters and Snipers use more than 10 power and it is usually a CZP. This comes from a desire to combine the wide view of a low power scope and the resolve power of a high power one. The most popular is probably a CZP in 3.5 to 10 power for Police and Military work (Military uses some fixed powers in range of 8 to 10 power). We have a American Company called Leupold that you see frequently here that make excellent optics that are clear to extreme edges of lens. No distortion or color aborition anywhere. The Light and Contrast seems to be unequaled unless the rifleman spends much more money on scopes of another Manufactuer. Many Snipers employ these scope for they are CZP but are equal 99 percent to best fixed power scopes. Most of these scopes have been equipped for Sniper work with Mil Dot range finders and Target turrets for elevation and windage changes. Personally the powers above 14 I consider useless due to Mirage and heat distortions. It is a fad with Law Enforcement Snipers to carry very large objective (50 mm or more )scopes both for their Light gathering capabilities and their intimidation factors. It is a great intimidator to see men in black uniforms with helmets visors and jackets buldging with body armor when criminals are encountered in stand off situtations. Men running around with Large Objective scopes and black caps on backwards or at least it is thought to be. This feeling has resulted in very heavy rifles to be used at relatively close range stand off situations. Since there are plenty of back up personel there it is not needed to be able to shoot at close targets assaulting their position most of the time. MIlitary uses smaller objective scopes and smaller rifles as I am sure you already know and know why. Will spare you and others of my assessment of military equipment.
As early as Vietnam American Snipers have fitted the 50 cal machine gun with Unertl rifle scopes and shot the distances (2000m.) you mention. There is a group of Long range shooters in America now with dedication toward the .50 Cal. BMG cartridge and long range shooting is quite a science among them as well as building 50 caliber rifles that are single man transportable as you may have discovered from past archives of this page.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 13:11:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bill,

You missed the use of the .50 BMG and converted anti-tank rifles in Korea by Bill Brophy, Frank Conaway,and others. Heck they may have even tried that in WW II.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 13:53:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.33)

About our freindly "commie":
I spent may yers studying and analyzing U.S.S.R doctrine, methods, politics, etc. as an analyst. I can say to all of you rednecks looking to kill a "commie": the vast majority of U.S.S.R. "citizens" no more cared for teh nukes, hostile takovers, and the all the other B.S. of teh U.S.S.R., even though they served in teh military as careermen, than we do of our governments B.S.

I guess in Russia the Provda papers could say our government executes its own citizens that the government disagrees with: Ruby Ridge.

I guess in Russia the Provda papers could say our government kills children with merciless danger: Waco.

I guess in Russia the Provda papers could say our government kills political protesters: Kent State.

I guess in Russia the Provda papers could say our government starves children: Some, although very few, children do starve here.

The point is the USA wis the best country, but not perfect. We are allowing oursleves to be "overthrown" by Clinton and gang through peaceful means: elections, with politicians lying and propagandizing issues, such that our elections are of those that do no have the our country's best interest at heart.

Neither did the U.S.S.R. Those people were peacefully overtaken by power hungry bastards who corrupted the entire system. So is Clinton and company, and all the otehr socialist and marxist who call themselves "compasionate" Democrates.

Layoff this interested and interesting "commie". I doubt he makes decisions such as to build nukes.(Remember, we were the first and only country to actually use them. I do agree we should have to save many Americans lives. We didn't start the Pacific war: We ended it.)

Not to mention, can he come here to enjoy and enhance the American culture? Do we allow all who wish to come here to do so? Perhaps he is there because he isn't allowed to come here due to quotas? Maybe he does wish to come here, or maybe he wishes not to run from a bad situation, but make his country better, and perhaps more like ours.

I welcome Paskz, he can bring much interesting information for us.

If there is any "commie" I wish to kill, it would be the power hungry bastards who brought his country the socialist and marxist governments he has had to endure.

Hank <rhenry@rhtyms.net>
Denver, CO, Good 'ol USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 16:10:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.245.5.245)

Pete;'your absolutely right. I had read about that but forgotten it!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 16:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bill Rogers,

"It could be Hornady A-Max #5165?"

LMAO
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY gAWD wEST vIRGINNY!, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 17:56:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.53)

I shot for 5th Mtu and USAMU IN 89 and 91, ran the MTU at
Ft. Leonard Wood before bein medicaly retired in 92. would like
to talk with other high power rifle shooters and ex Marine team
or Army team Shooters. Exellent site.
John P. Burrell <hardgun@earthlink.com>
manor, tx, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 18:04:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.191.153.163)
P. Marcos

Ferreira? Good Portuguese breeding stock of course! What else you expected? Definately not Madeira!

Regarding Paskz, maybe he has not received the welcome that we would have liked, but in a sense that is his own doing as well, and not only just because he's Russian. Sometimes his use of the English vernacular leaves a lot to be desired, others actually not. Might be that he said things he did not intend the way they came out. God only knows how many times I've done that for, despite being well versed in the language, it is not my first language either.

On the other hand, might not be. But, whatever he has done, I think he has made a lot of us thought again on some issues which for some reason or another we haven't done in a while.

So, we have to agree to disagree, to a larger or a lesser extent. But at least take the opportunity to learn. Though we might not agree with his sentiments, both personal and that of his country, he has got something to give.

His views on the West, and the US, is probably formed a lot more in his information-closed society by propaganda than we will ever understand. And I think all of us know how one-sided newscoverage can be if it suits those in power!

But, for him to deny to a larger or lesser extent the evils of his own government and their puppets? It is the same as the English historian on the Anglo-Boer War telling me the other day that the British didn't put the Boer women and children in CONCENTRATION camps "...they were camps of safety, protecting them." I spit on that - both comments!  Actually more than that, but I can't say that here.

Pablito, just one small correction. The site is not run from South Africa, merely maintained from here. It s hosted in the US, somewhere in Virginia - is that correct Ken?

Have a nice day, and for those in the US/Canada who are hunters, enjoy your hunting if you have started already your new season , or the preparations therefore if you haven't yet.

Take care

Marius
Marius <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, South Africa - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 19:09:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.196.37)

T.R.G.T. is now selling a nylon data book cover to go with the Sniper Data Book. London Bridge Trading custom makes the cases for T.R.G.T. and they retail at $17.95.

See http://www.trgt.com/images/opennshut.jpg for a picture.

We've also posted selected pages the data book to view. Check out our sniper data gear page for more information.

Operations Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.

Operations Partner - T.R.G.T. - L.L.P. <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, Colorado, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 20:02:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.143.117)

Off the question of long range tactical shooting.

I purchased a USP Tactical 45 for use as a personal home defense/side arm. I have fired different factory loads through it since my purchase. I have the the gun on numerous times not battery back into position. When this happens I have to tap the back of the slide and then it gets in the ready position to fire. Has anyone either seen this happen, own a USP Tactical and had this happen or heard of this happening? This problem is concerning. I have own other USP's with no issues like the standard 40. The compact I know for a fact has problems with reloads but not factory ammo.

Again, sorry for jumping off the subject of both tactical/long rang shooting. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Darren...
Semper Fi
I 3/12
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
S.F., CA, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 20:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.193.252.126)

Marius: This site and several others are hosted right here on our 5.5 acre herb farm in Independent Hill Virginny (not W.Virginny). We're about 10 miles north west of Quantico or 8 miles south of Manassas Va.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 21:29:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

I have recently purchused a Spingfield Armory's 1911A1 used...
I am looking for a hint on how I can trace the history of this fire arm. Any clues please email me. thanks SEMPER FI!!
Gommer Pile <toolman405@aol.com>
Ft.Myers, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 23:04:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.159)
Paskz,

I just sent you an e-mail explaining some things. I hope that after reading that, we can agree to disagree on certain things.

A word of advice: On this forum you will find a lot of people with very strong opinions on firearms and tactics, but even stronger opinions on politics. I'm that way, you are that way and so are most of the others.

Let's leave politics or what they are and stick to guns, gear adn tactics. If we can manage to do that, I think in the end we'll all be better off, having learned a lot more about things neither of us knew about.

How about it, huh?

To start things off, I have a question for you:
In several catalogs I see advertisements of Russian "sniper-suits", funny looking camoflage suits. Yet I was always told that the Russian sniper was more like a designated marksman, i/e/ a regular soldier, equiped with a special rifle, enabling him to engage targets his unit-members could not reach. These two things do not match. Did/does the Russian Army employ sneaky snipers, euiped with "sniper-suits" or is the suit a fake?

L8er all!

Stefan

PS. WHAT ABOUT THAT LBE VS. TACTICAL VEST DISCUSSION? ANYONE?

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 23:43:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.121.193.40)

Good day, Steve.

>I have a few questions for you if you don't mind.

About PU.

I don't mind, but curretly can not help. Probably the problems are subjective, probably I have not fired with this scope as much. I use 6x optics and am very happy.

I am not so fluent in English, and especialy in some termins used to describe problem. I don't understand what kind of problem that is.

My friend has said, that he have PU users manual; I will translate it, when I get - and you will enjoy the most advanced English languge ever existed :)

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Sunday, September 12, 1999 at 23:51:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Good day, Stefan

>In several catalogs I see advertisements of Russian "sniper-suits", funny looking camoflage suits. Yet I was always told that the Russian sniper was more like a designated marksman, i/e/ a regular soldier, equiped with a special rifle, enabling him to engage targets his unit-members could not reach. These two things do not match. Did/does the Russian Army employ sneaky snipers, euiped with "sniper-suits" or is the suit a fake?

That was not the common practice, and our doctrine was realy better described as designated marksmanship. Illustration: instead of sneaky-tricky one-kills, we used armored divisions, capable to burst off any resistance - that was BMP (Bojevaya Mashina Pechoty) and BTR (Bronetransporter), equiped with machine guns, and fast-reloading chain canons. They took mobile infantry group on board, then before the mission begins, group ejects from inside and act in several ways - snipers as snipers (but more mobile than Western snipers), stormtroopers as stormtroopers, RPG acting to destroy covered aims. Add to this helicopter support with Mi-24 or Ka-50 and you will understand that this is a great firepower. Just like Germans used in WWI a new artillery tactic.

That was modern doctrine, and proven on practice.

However that doctrine was changed after Afghanistan. The BTR/BMP are not efficient in mountains. This doctrine performs poor in local wars, where placement of all potential of our country was inadequte to enemy forces and task.

Then to our millitary command was given a task to do something other, not only one square-per-square demolition. There was many results, one of them - intensive program of training for young people in traditions of WWII snipership. I am one of those, who finished that school. We were tuned to local conflicts.

USSR has died. Russia has faced with many local disasters. That was Karabach, Fergana, Cisdnestrian Rep., Chechnia, Dagestan and many others. As Russia is not as reach as was USSR the cheap tactic of WWII or West was adopted by Special Forces and regular forces.

Today among Russians is many good snipers; The study of volounteurs, acted in all local wars, in Russia, Yugoslavia and other countries is adopted. We know, that this doctrine is complimental and can not be a basement to face with real threat. But it is cheaper than to send five BTR and helicopters to frie some Chechens, to send one-two snipers to make Chechens feel the near presence of Allakh.

The main power of our army is changability. So when circumstances dictate firestorm - all people, incl. snipers will do that. If it goes for positional war, or mountain-type hunting for somebody - we will hunt.

About suits. Of course they are. One of them my friend will buy tommorow, he will tell me how it is. I do not think that G-Suite is as essential as attention, usually payed to these type of masking. Anyway after two-three episodes it will turn to D(irt)-Suit. Anyway everyone can construct this suite, using Type 84 universal masking suite and a lot of spare camo-net. And ours do.

The suite, my friend goes to buy costs $40, and is available from commercial firm. We must see does it worth the money or better to do them from scratch.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 01:05:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

S(I)Paskz,
Thanks for your reply to my PU scope querry. And dont worry about getting the translation down in most perfect English, I enjoy your creative use of phrases,example "I think after some shots from SVD, relatively light but powerfull rifle,generating heavy recoil, scope will point to some point, where probably treasures lie, but not where the next bullet will hit." Believe me, you could sell a few books in this country with that style writing.
I do have a small problem with your use of logic though, example,
Just because Serbs do not play baseball, does not necessarily lead to the conclusion, there are no Baseball bats in Serbia. Maybe they were a gift from some American dignitary, yes?
By the way, I have another question. I have seen some Speznaz optical rangefinders for sale. Are they any good? The ones I am refering to look like a regular riflescope featuring CFZ to range with, advertised to range to 5000 meters.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 02:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)
Darren; I have some experience with USP .45 cal and 9mm. I never had a failure to battery on any round with reasonable care even on reloads. I have heard comment that they are finicky about reloads but none I had were.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 03:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Darren-

A friend of mine had a similar problem with his USP 40. Two things that helped it out:
1: Bunches of lubricant. He overlubes as a general rule, he just does. He got mad at it, and started *seriously* overlubing the slide rails and it helped.
2: Have the slide rails and frame rails polished.
You may also want to try all different types of ammo and see if it likes one type more than others. Individual guns can be picky. I have a Glock 17 that shoots straight with whatever I feed it, but a buddy of mine has one, bought a month later that absolutelly hates anything remmington. dunno.

On the LBE vs. Tac vests thing-

I think a lot of the choice is very personal. What you are used to, what you learned on, and what applies best to your particular needs. I personally like the vests. They have a better selection of pouches, clip points, ect.. Also, you can load it with what you carry standard, fit it to you, take it off and store it. When you need it, you simple pull it out, and put it on over whatever you are wearing. LBEs have a big following with those who used them extensively in the military. They have the advantage of being easier, as a general rule, to carry a backpack, less to interfere withthe sholder straps. Also, LBEs are customizable as to the pouches, clips and ect... that you put on it. the majority of vests are not. Blackhawk however makes one that is, and they also make a backpack that clips to the vest. It's not really big, but you could put at least a few days worth of gear in there, more if you are really frugal. Another plus to LBEs is they are intrinsically cooler (less hot) than the vests. The vest covers most of your torso trunk with another layer of material, which will trap more heat. Many are now made from mesh, which helps, but it also constricts the shirt or jacket you wear under it, resrticting air flow. Also, surplus LBEs can *usually* be found cheaper than a good vest. Just my thoughts, anyone else care to pick this one apart?

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Too close to DC, MAryland, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 04:26:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.11)

Signing on-board, sir!
Michael M. Kiefer <kieferbaum@aol.com>
Surprise, Arizona, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 05:07:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.171.164.157)
Does anybody know where I can acquire a set of one inch ring inserts for Redfield 30mm rings?
A.R.M.S. makes a set for $45.00 but they only fit Mark 4 type rings.
Help!!!
bada bing <stocktip@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 05:23:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.246.88.44)
Another Pat,

RE:Action's suitable for .338LM,you might also try 2 by Sako,the TRG-S and the TRG-41 action.Both are basically the same,3 lug,60 degree bolt lift,the TRG-41 is the action with more meat(metal) left on the action and not machined away,has a ejecion port and a 5 rd magazine,and a long full length dovetail for slide on QD-scopemount.The TRG-S is a version of the above with a lot more metal removed and look's like a conventional sporter type action,and 3 rd mag.They are cheaper than you may have thought,try a shop in Finland,it's website is <www.riistamaa.fi>,
When you get there,click on English and surf,there is also a currencie calculator to convert in to your currency.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 06:06:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.231)

Paskz,
The new 3x9 scope for SVD can be bought in any good gunshop in Russia.

emin <emini@mail.ru>
RUSSIA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 11:09:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.16.16.6)

Quickbow; is right about individual firearms and individual loads on Semi auto pistols. There seems to be a happy load that will cycle everything just right. Others may be Ok but there are unhappy loads that will cause the things to do something wrong. Either they swell to much before opening or swell while opening of bang the slide a little too hard or too soft. It's hard to put a handle on it. Quite honestly the only thing I've found to do is just get a different load or reload and try it. If the gun really has something wrong it will likely do it with it too. Same thing on misfires, stove pipes etc.
The only sure cure is go to a wheel gun unfortunately or get another auto that doesn't do it. Ramping smoothing parts and polishing can help but I'd sure not want to trust my being to a gun that had to be over oiled. Bad gugu!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 11:56:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Has anyone had experiance with Devcon bedding compound sold through Brownell's? How does it compare to Acraglass? I see they list a liquid and a paste, which is better for bedding a Rem. 700 PSS action? Thanks.
Dean <dean.michalko@co.hennepin.mn.us>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 12:46:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.73.55.10)
LBE vs VEST

The few times I have warn a vest it has been in conjunction with body armor which can be abominably hot combination in the summer. For my own purposes I like the LBE or just a pistol belt with an army buttpack, canteen and little else.

If I really needed to carry a moderately heavy load (25-50#). I would go with an internal frame pack. Eagle creek has made several internal frame “technical” backpacks that are lightweight and designed for mountaineering and the final push to the summit. After some small modifications they are excellent hunting and assault backpacks. Basically all that needs to be done is to replace any 1 ¼” webbing with 2” and ALICE gear clips right on. All of the “assault” backpacks I have seen on the market have little support and no internal pack frame.

Quickbow in response to your post;
100,000 - 250,000 now. In about 10 years I expect less than 10,000. Most of those will be attributed to something I call “the war on violence”. I.e. the stamping out of all hatred regardless of wither it’s warranted or not.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
breckenridge, Texas, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 13:13:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

LBE vs VEST

The few times I have warn a vest it has been in conjunction with body armor which can be abominably hot combination in the summer. For my own purposes I like the LBE or just a pistol belt with an army buttpack, canteen and little else.

If I really needed to carry a moderately heavy load (25-50#). I would go with an internal frame pack. Eagle creek has made several internal frame “technical” backpacks that are lightweight and designed for mountaineering and the final push to the summit. After some small modifications they are excellent hunting and assault backpacks. Basically all that needs to be done is to replace any 1 ¼” webbing with 2” and ALICE gear clips right on. All of the “assault” backpacks I have seen on the market have little support and no internal pack frame.

Quickbow in response to your post;
100,000 - 250,000 now. In about 10 years I expect less than 10,000. Most of those will be attributed to something I call “the war on violence”. I.e. the stamping out of all hatred regardless of wither it’s warranted or not.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
breckenridge, Texas, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 13:28:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Dean:

I havev used the Devcon products extensivly. They among the better bedding compounds you can use and are better than the AcraGlas Gel. I dont know about the new AcraGlas Steelbed stuff. The Devcon gets very hard and (along with Bisonite) is prefered for building NM gas guns and top drawer bolt guns alike. Iron Brigade spends the big money on Devcon Titanium, not sure why. I usualy use the aluminum paste,
which offers a nice combination of durability, ease to work with and corrosion-resistance. Bisonite might be somewhat tougher than the Devcon Aluminum but is much harder to work with and is less forgiving of sloppy metal prep.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 16:22:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.141)

USP Tactical 45:

I have purchased a few different lots of factory loads to try out this week. What I think is happening is that the o-ring on the barrel maybe expanding. This maybe or may not be the cause but I am going to trying shooting it with and with out the o-ring to see what happens. I had a good suggestion sent to me via E-Mail. I am going to also contact HK about this and see what they say about it.

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 16:49:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.185.14.90)

Pablito:
Thanks for the help. I wasn't worried too much about the brass hitting the scope as I am the brass hitting that target turret sticking out the side of the Leupold Mk4 M1. My brass exits about 2 o'clock too. I think I will try to trade off this #19A for some of the quick throw ARMS rings, the low ones, if I can measure it out that they will fit.
As for the pistol dope, I agree with you ALMOST. First off, I have to say that I'm a big beleiver in the 45 auto. Now that I've covered my butt, I think that the really high velocity 9's are in the same leauge as the 45, in decent weather. I say this because of the "cocooning" effect of clothes working aginst the hollow point. You notice that the police agencies that had 9's are pretty much divided out now. The ones that went with 124's or worse, the 147's as well as the standard velocity 115's have all gone to the 40 or something like it. Those that went with the high velocity 9's in 115 have staid with them! Mine have no problem knocking over the pepper poppers with one shot, week before last I hit a stage (IDPA) that had 6 "bad guy" poppers at ranges of 10 to 25 yards. 6 rounds, 6 hits, 6 knock downs. That's in the same class as the 45!
Just for the record, I use the RCBS taper crimp seating die, just for crimping only. I have a Hornady seater stationed right before that. The midway cartridge gauge works really well, but I prefer to use my own barrel, removed from the weapon.
I would love the 10 mm too except for the fact that I can't find one that works 100%. Once I find that, I might just have to sell off a Colt 45 and a Glock!
Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 17:43:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)
To all,

Looking for general and load information (good, bad or ugly) on the 6.5 X 284 cartridge. Pro's and con's. Building a 1000 yard gun (not bench, more varmint and general purpose) How's it compare to the 300 win mag.

Many Thanks
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 17:48:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.234.250.2)

Hi all,
Made it back!! Got JR. married off and the wife's check up went well!! and found out Pac Nor is giving me a brand new barrel so I had a good week(HA) Who's are new Commie friend?? Is he a Russian Sniper?? sounds like he stirred the pot a little I haven't had a chance to read all the archives yet. Dean,
I have not used Brownells Devcon but I have used nothing but the Devcon Plactic Steel that you can buy in any hardware store for a couple of bucks and it will bed two rilfes if your not sloppy. I started using it when I went to the H&S stocks I figured it would be better with the aluminum block and it has worked great for me!!

PeteR,
If I can ever get into my e.mail I will send you a few other neat address that I am sure you will enjoy.

Jeff,
Check out www.accuratereloading.com I think that is the place that has the info your looking for. If not let me know and I will get you the info you need because I made a copy of the data from the sight where I found the info on the 6.5x284. They built it on a Hall action and did a lot of accuracy testing some groups in the .09s and a lot of .2s and .3s also with a bunch of different powders and bullets.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 19:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

To: another Pat!

The CZ 550 (416 Rigby) is a "modernized" version of the old Brno
ZKK-602 magnum mauser. This is a large action suited for anything
you want to fit into it, incl. the 338 Lapua. I have one in .375
H&H Mag., customized with shortened 22" (instead of 25") barrel,
quick detachable scope mounts, fiberglass stock, parkerized, etc.
I use it for hunting big bears that bite back. The old 602:s had
a buildt in, flip open peep sight in the receiver bridge - a very nice feature. This action is smooth as silk. It holds 5 rounds in the magazine. The trigger and safety (backwards) is not the greatest, but I can live with them on a big game hunting rifle. These rifles often come with both a single set trigger and an optional, regular trigger. The Bauska action, which is a copy of the Brno, has had the problems with trigger + safety fixed. I believe seeing an ad , where Olympic Arms built long range rifles using the Bauska (or Brno?) action? The CZ should make a good platform for a 338 Lapua if you like the mauser system!
Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
BC,, Canada - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 20:02:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

Bruce E.
LE opps and these "extra special" weapons really don't fit together. I am not saying that they should or should not. I am just saying that todays climate of civil litigation for anything and everything makes it impossible for typical agency to justify anything that is not considered standard out of the box practice. There may be hundreds of "what if" scenarios that may justify some of this stuff - but none are going to be in the realm of something the chief or city council are likely to stick their necks out for.

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 20:32:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

Lito;and Bravo. Don't mean to get in the middle of something but we made some targets hereabouts they were 1/4" iorn with a 2 inch flat base. Kind of like a Metal Man Silouette target. A 44 mag would take them off the rack about any where you shot em. and a decent .45 hit would dump them. I Got into a shoot out one day! (draw and hit 25 yards) The opponent had a .45 with 200 gr. lead. Me with my spankin new Beretta 9mm. Just proud as punch of it!
I put 5 shots into the torso of that target before he got his .45 workin. 1 shot from the .45 and the target went down. Mine still stood. Load was heavy powdered 115 gr. HP Jacketed. Don't prove a thing except that shooting steel there is no comparision. Your right about the High Velocity 9mm. though. If you've only got a 9mm that's the way to go. I use a .40 with 155gr bullets these days. It ain't no .45 but it ain't no 9 either! I guess if the targets had been flesh and real he probably would have lost anyway! But......
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 20:50:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Paskz, couple questions.
do you prefere to resieve questions here or on Russian site?
Second, over here (in Amereica) the Kalshnicov of USA selling PSO style scope in 6x36, is it the same scope what you use?
And third it is interesting to see that on Russian version "conference" you have same type of guys with same opinion: I am better then those stupid (insert american/russian) and we will destroy them with closed eyes (I belive you have expression with one left hand). And american snipers is not a snipers they just have paid a lot of money on a course...
And another thing.
What else I wanted to say... A.., now I remeber..
To russian collegues:
Not all american look at war as a show (Rembo etc.), all serious shooters aren't. It is the same as look that all young people in Russia are Mafia (bandity) and young girls are prostitutes.
HK

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 21:29:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

B.Rogers...
You're not getting in the middle of anything... I'm in full agreement with you. I love Browning HP's and have hald a dozen of them, includong 2 HP/GP's, and the HP was my first carry gun in the 60's... but the best of the 9's isn't enough any more, with bad guys wearing leather in the summer, and some heavy flake in their noses... should you ever have the need... you really have to hit them hard.
I don't care for the factory 10mm loads, and shoot the 135's at about 1500-1550 fps... but I have big hands (snow shovels).

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 23:02:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.79)

A good site. I have found the 70.5/4350 with a 185 Berger VLD in a .300 win mag. to be very accuate at 600 to 1,000 yds.
Also 42.5/4064 w/ a 190 Berger 210M primer in a 308 Federal case has done well at 600 - 1,000 at the nationals for me.
Carl A. Leisinger, III. <cleisng@injersey.com>
ewing, New Jersey, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 23:32:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.139.60.47)
Carl,

Have you tried H-1000 in the .300 Win Mag? Varget works pretty good with MK 190's in the .308 too

Jeff A,

Kimber dun got "sighted" today, 185 LSWC-HP over 4.2 grains of V-V N-320, Federal cases n' primers will cut 2" (or better)all day long, even in my spastic sheep squeezing hands.

Will,
Today:
Hornady .308 TAP
80 degrees F/ 15' from muzzle
hi-2735fps
lo-2670 fps
Es-65 fps
Avg-2692
Sd-22

44.0 Varget/175 gr BTHP/Federal GM components
80 degrees F/ 15' from muzzle

hi-2682 fps
lo-2654 fps
Es-28 fps
Avg-2673 fps
Sd-10

"It could be M-118LR?"

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 13, 1999 at 23:46:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.33)

Gents,
Anybody want to shoot 268gr bullets in a .308win?
Check out this site.
http://www.shooters.com/ps68.html
Strike Fear,
Glenn
T Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 00:58:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.26)
Greetings, HK.

>Paskz, couple questions.
>do you prefere to resieve questions here or on SC site?

I have nothing against SC, and like that conference and entire site. But due to unstructured (unthreaded) type of information on the SC forum it's hardly to observe all readings. I will continue post on SC, but for me, and probably for visitors is better communicate here - our topics will not interfere with SC orders and interests. And at last I am here the BOSS :)

>Second, over here (in Amereica) the Kalshnicov of USA selling PSO style scope in 6x36, is it the same scope what you use?

Hm.. Definitely no. I use old-style WWII type scope, without range estimator, Ir-det and rubber thing.. forgoten how it is named... It's dated 1943.

>And third it is interesting to see that on Russian version "conference" you have same type of guys with same opinion: I am better then those stupid (insert american/russian) and we will destroy them with closed eyes (I belive you have expression with one left hand). And american snipers is not a snipers they just have paid a lot of money on a course...

F***! What a shame! Here goes some kicks for those babies! Unbelievable, let me see... I have strugled with that on Duty Roaster - and now - what I hear - same types among Russians? Realy going angry - will say them two hard words about respect. Suckers.. Realy sorry.

>Not all american look at war as a show (Rembo etc.), some serios shooters aren't.

Dont believe me, that I believe in Rambo-educated people in US. Serious shooter can not be found among Rambo-type characters. And as US has a perfect millitary personel - I don't believe that is place for such characters in your army and paramilitary org.

Bandity i prostitutki ;) There is but, thank God, not all, and even minority.

p.s. URL is www.sniperterritory.8m.com/conference.htm
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 01:15:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

LBE Vs Vests

Having gone from LBEs to vests and back to pistol belts with leg pouch attachements I have definite opinions on the subject.
LBE- actually not bad, but not the most comfortable, especially when carrying a pack or drag bag. I also found the shoulder pads needed to be loose to be moved off my shooting shoulder. This cut down on the comfort level a lot.
Vests- If you can get one that works well keep it. They tend to pick up all sorts of gunk while crawling and are hot and restrictive to positional shooting. Try lying prone on one for a few hours for comfort-NOT! all that gear and pouches under you..... (BTW-why does the military issue vests with pouches high on your chest--doesn't that interferere with getting as low as possible?) But....... this is the most comfortable way to carry lots of gear on you and not in your pack. This did tend to interfere with carrying a pack less than the LBE though. Also if you have a lot of climatic change the vests don't adapt well to different undergarment layering.That is a big factor for me.
Padded Pistol belt- works best for me (maybe not you). It is easily and quickly adapted to different climatic changes. I use a drop pistol holster and a thigh pouch for other items on the other side. It doesn't interfere with any pack or drag bag. It works out well in actual use and is best when I have to strip down to bare essentials.
Well- this is my humble opinion only.......comments?

MicTac <MicTac@Aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 01:29:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.194)

LBE vs. VEST
Most of the vest available have a bunch of pockets on the front. Isn't that uncomfortable in the prone position? LBE leaves the front of the torso open except for the front of the belt. Seems to me that the LBE would be alot more comfortable especially if there was no pouches on the front or no more bigger than a first aid pouch. As far as storage, Eagle makes a spacious butt pack that has extra straps for tying larger objects on. I have found that the M249 SAW pouches flanking the butt pack is very comfortable and gives access to things that are needed more often.

Anybody want to cry themselves to sleep tonight check out the stuff at www.ccfa.com. WAAAAAAAAAAAAA
TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 01:39:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.26)

In case anyone is wondering I bought one of those pull thru bore Ropes,,that are supposed to clean in one swipe,,forget about it,,will probably work to help in the field but for true cleaning stick to a good brush, solvent and Patches.

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 01:53:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.146.91.135)

Dean, Devcon is good stuff but I prefer Marine Tex. Get it at any marine dealer. $8.00 for enough to do ten rifles. $15.00 for about 25 rifles. This is what most of the great rifle guys use. When is that bag of yours coming out?

LE and special rifles. It is rare that LE types have issued fancy equipment. Most have PSS's and Leupold 3.5x10 VariX3 1" tube tactical scopes. I prefer all the rifle I can get but everything in most departments is low bid. This is a good setup but both manufactures make far better equipment.

I have sent Marius reviews on the NorCal Rifle and Nikon Laser Range Finder. I have a review of TRGT's Data Book. If enough folks want to see it I will send it to Marius. If SC does not carry it. It is in the September Issue of Minute of Angle.

I am still working on the HS and McMillan test. Both are doing very well. No winner yet.

I am going to shoot the new 50cal R.A.P and Leupold16x MK4 set up, on Weds.

Gooch and all looking forward to Storm in two weeks. I just hope all the bare foot country boys take it easy on this city boy.

Undude/Mike

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 01:56:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.31)

T Glenn...
The error in the artical is that they ARE NOT FOR SALE... only to the military... I have spoken to them, and they won't even send a sample.
However, you can make them yourself... the equipment is available from Corbin. It's on my list of things to do this winter...

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 02:11:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.79)

Well, i'm packing again. SORT and NMRT on 4 hour standby. If you are in the path get the hell out now. Do not wait. This storm will kill your ass. Gusts to 200 mph. Figure that windage!!!!!!!!!

Guess I'll see you where it does the most damage unless I have to take over State Hazmat at this AO. Tie your asses down, this one is not to be intercoursed with.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 02:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.61)

OK... I may be a little late with this response on taper crimping pistol cartridges, but better late than never, heh?

A taper crimp is NECESSARY on "rimless" pistol cartridges such as .380 Auto, 9mm Luger, 40 S&W, .45 Auto and 10mm Auto. These cartridges headspace on the case mouth - a proper taper crimp and correct case length are required for the cartridges to have the right headspace in the pistol's chamber.

Roll crimping is a big no-no.... your cartridges may fire and they may not. If they do it is probably because your pistol's extractor has enough tension to hold the cartridge in place while the firing pin hits the primer. This is exactly what happens when you fire a .40 S&W cartridge in a pistol chambered for 10mm Auto - the .40 S&W cartridge is shorter than the 10mm Auto cartridge and can't headspace properly in the 10mm Auto chamber, so the extractor has to hold the "rim groove" of the cartridge case during firing.

Also, a taper crimp can be over-done. You only want to taper crimp the cartridge enough to keep the bullet from moving (being seated deeper into the case) when the pistol cycles. Crimp too hard and you can deform the bullet and reduce the outside diameter of the case mouth enough that the cartridge won't headspace correctly.

Use those roll crimp dies all you want on rimmed pistol cartridges such as .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Remington Magnum and .45 Long Colt - but don't use them on auto pistols chambered for rimless cartridges!!!

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 02:31:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.185)

Guess I'd go for the butt pack but I always get one that I can carry bandlero style. Lotsa runnin around in the bush that I've done has made me realize that the old Mountain Men of America had this figured out long ago with the old possibles bag. You can easily move it to either side or dump it if you need. The butt pack can be carried "purse style" or any other way you wish. Get two and carry one on each side. run them up on your back and crawl if you need too. Dump em if you fall in the water. Carrying your K-bar or Bowie accross your back or chest in this manner is very versatile also. Ammo in Bandeleros works quite well also for crawling or walking.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 02:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
On the subject of the possibility of cartridge cases hitting the scope during ejection from M1A's -

I've never had an ejected case hit the scope on my M1A, but they sure do beat the hell out of the bottom of my scope mount! I've got a Springfield Armory mount on my M1A (appears to be made out of some kind of aluminum alloy) and it's got a bunch of dings on the bottom of it from all the cases that have hit it. Is this typical of what you guys have seen on your M1A rifles???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 03:00:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.185)

Mr. Rogers
You are far from "getting in the middle" of anything. Please don't worry about that! I appreciate your opinion (what I've been reading for the past few months from you has been "sage" to be sure) as well as the help and opinion of our compadre Pablito. What I'm getting at here is that everything is a trade off. Lets say, just for the sake of arguement, that I carry a S&W 44 mag with full house loads that make Elmer Kieth say "hoooorah!". Now, I'm good, but I'm not that good. I could draw and hit anything you want, within reason, for the first round. One. Recovery time for a second shot, should it be needed for something like a second assailant is dismal (for me). Now we get into the trade off. Second shot recovery versus "knock down" power. Citing "Handgun Stopping Power" by Marshall/Sanow (please don't jump on me, I beleive that the only way you get a 98% one shot stop at less than 25 yards is with a 12 gauge! However it does well for comparissons) we can see that the top load for the 45 auto is the Federal Hydrashok, what I have mine loaded with at this time at a 90.56%. The Sierra handload for my 9mm is identical balistically to the Cor-Bon load (I bought some and tried them over the oehler, etc) at 90.90%. Now I'm sure not going to say that the 9 will beat any 45 auto, but lets please remember 2 things.
1. Velocity counts. I don't think that anyone out there would call the 357 Mag a wimp. In comparisson with the 9 "heavy" (apples to apples) you have .357"/.355" 125 grain/125 grain (using the sierra) and 1450fps/1325fps. Not too shabby. The Winchester 357/125 grain goes 1391fps for a 87.95%.
2. The bullet that finally ended the "Miami Massecre" (last round fired) was a 38 special from a snub nose, 158gr at 789fps, good in this book for 66.66%, which shows that ultimately "speed is great, but accuracy is final".

I'm not meaning to tread on anyone. I beleive that both camps have the right answer, they're just different. Heavy slow puts things down without a question (I used to carry a 44 spl S&W L frame snub!). Fast light things put things down quickly too. The key, in my opinion, is keeping all the kinetic energy (or momentum for the heavy guys) in the assailant. With high velocities, you can't do that without a bullet that will tear itself up, thus the light weights. A 357 mag with a 240 grain siloughet load would go right through. In a heavy bullet, run less velocity. The 44 mag has problems because it can't use all the energy within the person, but it does great on deer!

The trade that I'm personally willing to make is a really hot 9 (bordering on a 357 mag auto), a 135 or 155 grain 40 S&W, or a good 45 auto. All of them are controllable, I just shoot better personally with the Glock. If I could fit that big 'ol 45 glock grip in my hand, I would sell all else. The day that Glock comes out with a single stack 45 auto, 7 in the mag, 5 inch barrel (or even a 4.5) I will probably sell all my pistols! Until then, I'm using each of the 5 "short list" pistols I wrote about earlier, one year at a time, to see which one I really am better with. I'm really going to feel stupid if it isn't the Springfield Armory 45 auto I have sitting here with me!

Sorry for the length guys, been a while since I did a dissertation!

Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 03:41:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.140)

I'm curious I've heard conflicting information on the use of clp such as Break Free on m16 service rifles. Some say that the wax in the clp will cause the rifling in the barrel to change so the bullet trajectory is changed. I don't get my issue rifle out of the vault but maybe once a month and sometimes longer, what is the best to use, shooters choice, clp, hoppes, ect. I also have another question about the difference in accuracy between the m16-a1 and a2. How much of an improvement in accuracy do you get by using the a2 other than the improved elevation and windage dials. My company is having problems getting a2s for our shooting team and I wondered if it was worth pissing people off about it. Thanks
Robert Beken
rbeken@cornhusker.net
Robert Beken <rbeken@cornhusker.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 05:42:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.228.32.52)
Hi all,
I am considering buying a remington .308 ADl with synthetic stock.
This is considered an economy version of this calibre from remington as the synthetic stock is cheaper than the wood versions.
I am planning to use it as my 'cheap' tactical gun on which to learn (and then unlearn) how to make all my mistakes, as my 'good' rifle will probably be another year in the making.
I need advice/opinions, etc. on what you guys think of this idea.
What can I reasonably expect out of this rifle? It doesn't have a bull barrel or any of the other refinements reserved for tactical rifles normally really. It's basically a hunting gun, would I be able to reach out to 600 yards with it do you think?
Anyone with experience of this rifle please give me some advice.
The other alternative i was considering was a Ruger in .300 Win Mag (also a hunting rifle. More expensive though).
PLEASE e-mail me as my time is pretty limited these days due to a huge backlog of work. Thanks,
Joe
Joe <russellp@iafrica.com>
Cape Town, S Africa - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 07:16:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.31.0.186)
Hi All Where Can I find Some info On the GSG9 team?
Andy Bongard <SportyX1@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 09:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.46)
Hi all,
I am 21 years old and I guess you would say I'm a novice shooter have recentally purchased a Remington PSS w/ Leopold Vari-X III scope.
I have not recived my order yet but I am suspecting that there will be no mounts for my scope or a bi-pod..etc.
Being that I am a novice shooter I need some assistance on scope mounts..etc...I have also tried to read up on cleaning procedures but am extreemly confused...can somebody speak english to me I don't understand alot of the jargin.
What else would I need for this gun to ensure proper care???
Be as simple as possible, but don't spare the quality stuff..
Just because I'm a novice now doesn't mean I don't entend on becoming a more proficiant shooter.
Help would be much appreciated.

Peanut <peanutking15@hotmail.com>
Guam, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 13:25:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.128.10.37)

Joe,
I had a 30-06 in the Remington ADL in a synthetic stock and it shot 5 shots under and inch pretty damn regular. You could not get it hot or it would open up the groups. I bedded the stock and set the trigger to 3lbs and it would him most things I shot at, if I did my part. It will not shoot as many rounds accurately as the heavy barrels but the first few are always where they are suppose to be. If you don't shoot a lot of rounds through it and keep it cool it will be a fine starter rifle for you and you can rebarrel it later and put on a nice H&S stock and have a great rifle set up the way you want.

Peanut,
I would go with the Dual dove tail mounts there strong and cheap. On break in and cleaning you can go back into the archives and read pages on it but sometimes thats hard to find so here goes(My method)
BREAK IN:
Clean the rifle with Hoppes and a brush, scrub it out good and then use either sweets or shooters choice, after you clean out the Hoppes, until there is no blue on the patch. I then take JBs bore paste and put it on a tight fitting patch and scrub the bore at least 10 times with it(Repeat this process several times) then run a couple of wet patches of hoppes through the bore to clean out all the JBs, then dry patch. (check the action to make sure its clean to).
Now you start the break in process: Shoot one round and clean it with shooters choice, a couple of wet patches, brush and then a wet patch and a couple of dry patches. Repeat this for the first 10 rounds and then for the next 3 rounds for 30 rounds and then you can start shooting 5 shot groups and cleaning after every 5 rounds for a while when doing load work. Once the rifle starts to have very little fouling then I clean every 25 rounds by using shooters choice or a combo of Hoppes and Sweets if you use Sweets always use Hoppes to clean out the Sweets after, then dry patch.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 13:56:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Breakfree in bores: Dont do it. The Teflon gets into the medal and cuts down the effect of the rifling. Acc. suffers. Use plain old gun oil from Hoppes for protection. Clean with Shooters Choice, Hoppes Benchrest, JB Bore compound and Sweets 7.62

Inexpensive mounts for a novice. I agree the Dual Dovetails are great. It is what I say to go with on all Police Weapons. No screws to come loose.

Pistol: Stick with 40 or 45 for bad guys. I have seen to many failures with 9mm no matter how fast it is going. Unless you are using a MP5 and hammering them. 9mm is by far the best caliber in the MP5.

Rem700 ADL in 30-06: Great rifle for hunting. Go for it

300 Win Mag: why not go to 220's. They fly flat and just dont move much in the wind. HP shooters go with 190's because they dont recoil as much and they shoot many rounds. Most guys I know would take the 220's if they didn't have to shoot alot of rounds.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 15:00:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.48)

Joe;Africa; ADL is a good gun. You possibly will want to free float the foreend and glass bed the lug. It should come down from about 1.5" to around 1" The chamber will be a bit long and if you can/are reloading you will need to seat the bullets out as long as your magazine will allow. This will sometimes bring a ADL conventional stock to around 1" or .75. 44> grains of VARGET will work wonders with the Sierra Match Kings. Hunting bullets will give sub 2 moa but at 600yds or so it is a little flaky for killing shots. The smaller dia barrel is not a kiss of death. I had a winchester mod 70 similiar that would do 6" at that range easily but My adl did not quite do that being around 11" more likely. (3 shot hunting groups).

Bravo; I don't disagree with your writings on the velocity thing. Everything is indeed a trade off. It is just like hunting though every thing depends on accuracy ultimately. Where that bullet does go is a good part of the so called stopping power. Mike is sure nuff right about the 9mm. It is a trade off in reliablity I fear. I would not want to carry one to a serious gun fight. Now for protection at Luby's .... Why not! I confess that I have a .41 Magnum 6" S&W N frame that would be in my left cross draw holster if I were going to the gunfight and my 12 gauge was broken.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 15:40:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

FYI, according to a post to rec.guns by Rock McMillan, Harris Gunworks has filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy as of 9/3/99.

If true, then the guy thinking about using them for a custom rifle might need to reconsider. Hopefully the gentleman/gunsmith at Harris, as praised on this site, will end up with another company, and continue his good work.

Undude, thanks for the tip on Marine (as in boats) bedding stuff. I'm always looking for a good deal. Now I just need to find nine other rifles to bed! :^)

Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 16:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.50.63)

Question Re Elevation Adjustment for Long Range
Excuse this basic question but here goes: Whatis the procedure for long range adjustment. Is this correct: Assume target is at 600 yds. Does MOA of 1 at that range move point of impact 6 inches? (4 inches at 400 yds, 5 inches at 500 yds, etc?)? My Leupold brochure does not answer question beyond 200 yds (there 1 MOA moves PI 2 inches), for Leupold 6.5 x 20/ 50 mm Long Range Target scope.

I have had Federal print a chart for Federal Match Gold .308 168 gr., showing bullet drop with my specific zero, so I think the procedure must be:

1. determine distance;

2. determine bullet drop at that distance;

3. divide bullet drop by MOA P.I. movement at that distance, in aboveexample, divide bullet drop in inches by 6 (1 MOA movement at 600 yds moves PI 6inches);

4. The number remaining is the number of MOA's you move the scope down so crosshairs will be where bullet strikes.

This assumes zero wind.

Is this the correct procedure?

Robert S. Tschiemer
Little Rock (trying to learn).
RTschiemer <Rtschiemer@aol.com>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 16:35:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.22)

SAYING HI THERE
SICK OF STAYING IN THE SHADOWS
THE DEMON

V <vphil@ireland.army.net>
Tralee, Co Kerry, Ireland - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 18:40:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.125.137.140)

Robert S,

Your basic idea of MOA is correct in that it is a cone of dispersion increasing away from the muzzle of your firearm where 1 MOA at 100yards is approx. 1 inch and 1 MOA at 200 yards is approx. 2 inches. So at 600 yards 1MOA would be 6 inches and an adjustment of one click on your scope would equal 1/4 of 6 inches or 1 1/2 inches, four complete clicks being a minute of angle would move the bullet 6 inches.

The only problem I see is that you asked if you would move the crosshairs down so that they would be where the bullet strikes. If you are refering to the direction you would turn the elevation turret you would want to turn it in the direction marked up or counter clockwise. Any adjustments made on the scope moves bullet point of impact in relation to the crosshairs.

The question I have concerning Leupold scopes is this: is the quality of their scopes good enough that 1/4 minute of angle on the adjustment knob actually equal 1/4 inch at 100 yards? How much does the height of the scope above the bore factor into everything or does that only effect trajectory? I've done plenty of 100yard shooting but I'm only starting to move further out on the range. I found that it is easier to get out to put the paper up when there aren't 20 impatient shooters waiting for you to run back from 200 yards out. I finally found out approx. what my point of impact is at 500 yards. Looks like I'm about 8-9MOA low from my 100 yard zero. I'm about 7MOA low from my normal zero. The load used is a 223rem with 50-53grn match hollow points from a 24 inch barreld AR-15. Velocity is unknown currently.
B Douglas <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Ca.(the gay davis state), USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 19:22:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.216.212)

Bravo,

What do you have to sell? I hope you get good bucks for everything. That's because Glock has announced a single stack .45ACP, the new model 36. It's supposedly due out in October. I believe it's a 6+1 but I don't remember for sure from the info I saw. I'll try to find it again and will update this post. I believe it was an ad in the American Home Guardian, my NRA pub.

In any case, good shooting with your new toy. LOL It should be a sweet shooter.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, People's Republic of Kalifornia, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 20:02:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.30.140.5)

Bi-Pod issue:

For the first time, I recently fired my Rem 700 PSS from the prone position using a Harris Bi-Pod and sand filled sock for support. Results for 5 shot groups at 300 yards were uncharacteristically large for this particular rifle. My first thought was the hard surface to surface contact between the bi-pod and ground; which was asphalt.

If anybody has read, "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold Vaughn kindly advise if he addresses the effects on rifle accuracy as a function of the rifle/support interface.

Other anecdotal evidence is also appreciated.
Curious George <cg@ibm.net>
emerald city, wa, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 20:09:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.12)

Undude/Mike
BreakFree "the teflon gets in the steel and cuts down the effect of the rifling." Your sure about this? The teflon is soooooo slick the bullet strips past the rifling? It may or may not be a good or bad thing to leave in the bore - but cut down on the effect of the rifling ? No way dude - I'm throwing the flag.
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 20:19:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)
STAY AWAY FROM PARTICULATE LUBRICANTS CONTAINING TELFON OR P.F.T.E.

I concur with his most emminently By-Gawd bound, Un-Dude and bet Rick Bowcher will jump in on this too.

Quickest way to FUBAR a barrel for CBS that I know of. and nothing short of grinding will get it out.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 20:26:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.31)

I'll toss my 2 cents with PeteR...
Teflon won't stop the rifling from working, but any thing that affects friction differently on the first shot, than on the following shots, is gary-damn-teed to throw the first shot away from the rest of the group, big time.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 20:37:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)

Maybe.... break free coated bullets? NAW! Don't even go there!
JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE JOKE
dON'T TRY THAT AT HOME KIDDIES!tHIS MEANS yOU TOO pETE R.

WHEW!jUST HAD TO DO THAT!
ON SCOPE CLICKS! The best way is to install a bore sighter and check all the individual clicks. SUPRISE! All scopes are different even Leupold. It's the only way I know to check turrets for resetablity and accuracy of clicks.
BIPODS- are so unpredictable I don't even like to think about it. But rest assured there are some diffences about what they are sitting on.
Like a car hood! oooh! BAd! But it still beats wavin in the wind.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 21:27:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

okay, HERES THE DEAL,

Teflon or PFTE is ground to a 4-5 micron sized particulate, to do this a wax "binder" is used. The binder is then "washed" out through some fancy process like making corn squeezings, or so I'm told.

Often for reasons unknown to simple WV hillybillies, like me, this "binder" does not completely leach out, or worse, corners are cut and its intentionally not removed. The resultant Quibber (Yucky Flubber + Quim stuff) for lack of a better scientific fangled term turns "rancid".

This does horrific things to barrels and actions in just the spots you need them most to guide a projectile.

About eight or nine years ago, I had a series of sample tubes with screw on lids in my office. Each contained a "wonder" lubricant most broke down and seperated in less than one week. I then left the lid off for a month and nasty things began to happen as the volatile/ lubricant carriers evaporated.

ICKY-Pooh like that stuff flying around in one of them "blue films" in a most critical moment of passion. EEEEEEEEEEEEwwwww.

At least thats the way this dumber than dumb hillbilly unnerstans it.

Chao
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 21:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

And while you have boresighter in check the setting with the forend on sandbads and again on the bipod sitting on something. (vibration is not entering this particular test but sometimes it's surprising)
No change? Good now reach up there and pinch the barrel toward the foreend and see what happens.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 21:30:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Fellow shooters
I have a question concerning MPI Stocks in Portland OR.
Are they any good and how do they compare to H&S or McMillan?

Bill Richter <bill_richter@directmeasurement.com>
CO, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 22:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.170.219.37)

peteR and Hillbillies all
I agree 100% with the "don't leave stuff in the bore" SOP, but the rifling thing was just beggin' to get busted.

By the way, I live in a Hillbilly Coal Mining Town myself. It is in the Cascades - Black Diamond, Washington. The hills get just a might taller than what you Western Virginia folks are accustomed to.
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 22:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

Jim,

By-Gawd is mere foothills, Actually I consider Anchorage, Alaska to be my "home" city/state and its got some pretty damn serious mountains :-)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 22:12:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.39)

Pat:

JR. married? You a grandpa yet? I've checked out the accurate website. Thanks. Glad your wife is doing well. Saw the photo of you and Shawn in TS. Will there be autographed prints available ? :)

Shot in my first night tactical match a Ft. Benning. A learning experience to be sure. Didn't do so well, but it was great fun.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 22:13:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

To all,
I watched the Movie Braveheart for about the 10'th time Sunday nite.
What a great movie!

To some,
While watching this movie I could not help but wonder if some of you guys are are missing something by not packing a Kilt to go with you Ghille suits for your upcomming visit to Storm Mountain. Those Scotts were a very clever race of people. I am sure those W. Virginia sheep can hear a zipper undone a mile away by now!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 22:18:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Steve...
It's the sound of a zipper that brings a sheepish smile to their faces, and makes them come running!

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 22:29:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.26)

Bravo! Sheep jokes, you're all my kind of people. I've got a couple friends who would pull out the velcro gloves at the mere mention of sheep. Nothing like being from a farming town aye?
B Douglas <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Kalifornia, USA - Tuesday, September 14, 1999 at 23:40:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 136.168.216.212)
Mission: Build a 338 LAPUA MAGNUM sniper rifle.

Objective: Utilize Remington 700 Long Action BDL.

Variables: 338 LAPUA has a 0.584" bolt face diameter.
Will the Rem 700 LA work? Anyone try one of these combo's? Know of any 'smiths with the chamber reamers, tooling, and know-how to pull it off? Me likes the ballistics of dat Finland round!What would be good barrel twist and length?
M Adkins <shawnabell@msn.com>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 00:01:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.21)

James Hicks, please explain your knowledge on this subject. My information came from the Marine Corp Shooting Team and the FBI Test with BreakFree. Not knowing your background I can not comment on who is right. The Teflon gets into the metal and screws with the groups. The Army Team has gone away from it and so has everyone I know. I am tired and a bit cranky so I am tring to be careful here. Bottom line is the guy asked advice and I gave it. I dont use it and wont let my students use it. I have tested groups from rifles with and without using Breakfree. Straight oil worked better. I use Breakfree on the rails of semi autos only. If you dont like my advice don't use it. Why don't you set us all straight on the dos and don'ts of Breakfree.
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 00:06:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.71)
Mr Adkins,

I'd wait until Remington releases the Sendero in .338 Ultra-Mag and go with that right out of the box, or you could get a SAKO. Not my idea of a casual off the bench cartidge though.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 00:21:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)

Great, now we have kilts & sheep in the same post. (BTW, kilts have only been around a couple hundred years. Back then, they were "breachen feaile". So, let's get Paskz in on this. Is there a favorite animal to "put the wood to" in your corner of the world? Kilts are remarkably comfortable. They are unbelievable chick magnets. Don't know about sheep.(attraction or comfort)

.338 Lapua questions. Refer to Jan. "Tactical Shooter" and anything on Remington's SR-8. I am looking into this also. Compare notes? TS has articles on this subject frequently.
Jim <surfbeat@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 00:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.69)

Pablito,
Thanks for the info.
I'll let the folks here know.
Strike Fear,
Glenn
T Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 01:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.14)
Re: teflon based lubricants. Once in my ignorance and wish to do good things for the barrel of my 700VS (like reduce friction) I coated the bore with Friction Block. Before shooting I patched it out with a couple of dry patches. I hit the range with a brand new box of 50 Nosler 55 Gr BT over 26 Gr of H335, seated just as the rifle liked, standing all neat and shiny in the MTM ammo box. Being ready to shoot the proverbial screamer, one hole groups, you can imagine my suprise when the first shot didn`t even hit the target. Same for the 2nd and 3rd. I about shat myself! I moved up to 50 yds and voila...a shot on paper...nowhere close to where it should have been but a start. I kept shooting and eventuaslly the groups returned to normal...somewhere around the 25-30 round mark. Needless to say...I have never used the stuff in my bore again. I will use it on high friction areas not pertaining to accuracy...slide rails or whatever but never, never again in my bore.
On bi-pods. I use a Harris model LM on all my rifles and have never noted a change in POI if the barrel is properly free floated, and you are careful not to tweak the fore end of the rifle by performing a torqueing movement left or right to get the crosshairs on target while the feet of the bi-pod are planted. Natural point of aim is important ant. I raise the rifle...move the whole thing over, replant the feet and check natural point of aim again. I have shot off sandbags, with bipod attached, I have shot with bi-pod legs folded resting on a fence post or other improvised rest and have not noticed any appreciable difference. I'd like to hear from other bi-pod users on the subject.
Str8shot crawls to the fridge for a beer.
Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
clear and cool , MI, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 02:06:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.117.54.87)
Not even on paper:
I got a real good case of the "dumb ass"
one day. Bought one of those sub-caliber adapters
from a well known mail-order company. Lets me run 32acp in my
308. it works great,pull the trigger,rifle goes bang,bullet goes somewhere. had to shoot it at 25 yards to get a group. Can you say
"5 shots in a 14 inch group"? I new it would not be a tack driver,
thought it would be good for shooting rats and such.
Let me tell ya boys it was the best 20 bucks i ever spent.
Glenn
T Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 02:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.14)
Ok, with all this bashing of Break-free going on, I have to ask: What is the best thing to put on your bore to protect it during storage in the safe til next hunting season? For instance, if you know you are not going to use the rifle again for a year and you have given it a thorough cleaning, what do you run through the bore last?
I gave up on Hoppes plain oil, because the orange bottles would always tip over and leak all over.
thanks
Larry <ldup@voicenet.com>
D'Town, PA, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 02:33:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.86.93)
Thanks to all that helped with the info on my new Remington PSS.
Peanut <peanutking15@hotmail.com>
Guam, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 02:47:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.128.10.96)
Remington 700 trigger.

Removed the trigger from my Rem a few months ago and now for the life of me I can;t remember how it goes back together. Would appriciate any help. Thanks.

Mike "Shoulda taken polaroids" S.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
southern, komifornia, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 02:56:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.39)

Re: Snake oil (Break-Free, CLP, etc.) in the bore.

Gents:

In my quest for the tightest shooting Rem. 700 PSS, I did a moly treatment of the bore.

Aside from my wife's reaction to the black speckles on the kitchen counters (where the bore brush came out of the muzzle), it was a disaster!

First trip to the range produced 4" groups (5 shots @ 100 yds.) from a rifle that had been shooting 3/4 inches.

About 50 shots later had me back to 3/4 inches.

Promptly went back to the regime that has worked for years on my woodchuck guns: end of season or when you know the gun will be down for a while, clean thoroughly with Hoppe's #9, then dry patches, then one patch with light oil for storage.

If I eliminated the oiling step, I found that cold bore zero was dead on next time I went to smoke a chuck.

I'm in total agreement with Mike (Undude) as far as not introducing snake oils into the bore.

Only my opinion, but based on a lot of dead woodchucks ( and tight groups) from a variety of rifles. PSS, Kimber, Ruger, Winchester, Anschutz, etc. Also a variety of calibers.

Bottom line: I for one do not trust anything but a clean dry bore. Only time I have been bothered by rust during storage has been with a muzzle-loader. Take the contaminants out with Hoppe's and leave the bore dry (or with only a minimum of light oil) and you're home free.

Snake oils in the bore do a great job of turning your rifle into a shotgun, but don't do much else. While these lubricants do a dandy job of keeping a semi-auto perking along under adverse conditions, I for one am unimptessed with their capabilities as a bore conditioner/preservative/whatever.

As an aside: I have a 1920's vintage Parker shotgun in pristine condition. Previous owner followed Parker Brothers' recommendation that "Three-in-One Oil is the only cleaning and preservative oil needed." This is just a sewing-machine oil!

Maybe less is indeed more!

Bruce Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 05:04:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.122.51)

.338 Lapua Mag,

Too fit the head size of the 338LM is tricky,as it is so large(the Rem 700 was not designed with this size in mind).As mentioned earlier the way to go is probabily the 338 Rem Ultra Mag when it is released,as this is a rebated round,with approximately the same head size as the belted mag's (like the .300WinMag)at .532.Both the AWM and the TRG-41 have a barrel lenght of 27 inche's,the Sako TRG-41's twist is 1-12,don't know what the AWM is,the 41 will stablise 250gr projectile's.If you intend using 300gr weight's you may need a tighter twist.Either round is a serious cartrigde,you will need either a muzzle brake or a suppressor to make the rifle any were close to being tolerable.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 05:50:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.229)

Bravo:

With handgun velocities, expansion is erratic so I don't count on it. Rifle velocities are another matter. Stick with the large diameter handgun bullets because they generally make bigger holes, let more air in and smack your assailant a little bit harder. They don't require expansion as part of their system of incapacitation since they are already large to begin with. The problem with the effect of handgun bullets on humans is that most of these bullets were designed with the intention of shooting game animals. They work on humans, of course, but most were not designed with that in mind. A thin-jacketed, bonded-core, large-diameter, heavy hollow point bullet is what is needed. Some people wear vests but they aren't much protection from good marksmanship. Having said that, I still prefer the "gauge" as Bill calls it.
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 08:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.186.82)

The most unpopular (with gun people) rust preventative on the planet is wd-40. I've been told that it will turn my guns yellow and jam them up in cold weather dry out the wood on my stock and melt down my plastic parts. I've only been using it for 20 years or so but I don't see any yellow guns around or brittle wood and it's never melted anything. It does prevent rust if you use it for storage. There are some rules though!
1. Don't coat the gun with the stuff without wiping it down with a rag. And don't concentrate in areas where the stock meets metal.
2. Don't treat it like oil cause it's not. If you put that much on it will indeed stop you some cold morning in Siberia, N. Dakota.
3. Don't spray it into actions and bolts of semi autos in large quanities without wiping it down. In general if you can feel the stuff on the parts you have too much.
4. Don't leave a large amount in the bore as it will blow your groups just like anything else. (if the gun is not going to store all winter I don't use it in the bore. Just a patched out dry bore is the best for the first shot.
5. Do not soak down the firing pin area and leave wd 40 on it! The parts should appear to have nothing on them when your finished.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 12:24:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bill,

I was told a long time ago by a couple of darn good gunsmiths that WD-40 is a "detergent" type cleaner lubricant and will leave a residue that gums over time. Birchwood Caseys "Sheath" will work real well too but will also "varnish" over time, I like to use Venco's "FP-10" on everything from airgun pellets to my PDW's and am quite happy with it so far.

I have a real ggod friend who uses Diesel fuel as a soak cleaner, pulls stocks from his .45's dumps them in a .50 ammo can overnight then cleans with brush and patches, then cleans with compressed air. He uses Wolfshead 50 Weight motor oil as a slide lube on his "bullseye" pistols with exceptional results.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 12:51:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.52)

YES, THE HURRICANE IS A MONSTER! 600 MILES WIDE, AND THE SIZE OF THE ENTIRE STATE OF FLORIDA. YOU CANNOT MESS WITH MOTHER NATURE. MOTHER NATURE MESSES WITH US! GET YOUR RAINGEAR TOGETHER IF YOU ARE IN THE CAROLINAS, AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMILY AND NEIGHBORS WHEN YOU HAVE TO LEAVE HOME. HOPE YOU WON'T NEED TO. PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE.
bill howell <billhowell@sportsmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 13:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.214)
Man, I never thought I would stir the crap like this! You guys got really definate ideas about pistols and that's a fact!
Really though, I appreciate having intelligent conversation on this, as I'm probably the most experienced pistolero in this town (very small town) and there isn't anyone to talk with!

As for the new Glock single stack, tried it, WAY too small. I sure hope they come out with a full sized version of that!

As for 41 mag, that's a "darkhorse" choice to be sure. If you're loading your own right, I bet you got about the best revolver cartridge there is! Not to mention individuality out the wazzoo!
I wasn't pleased with 2 things on the 41. First, The N frame is really big on me, and second, there aren't as many bullets out there as I would prefer. My choice: had a 40 magnum (that's right) made up for me on a S&W 686. Can't shoot over about 1350 with the 135 grainers, but it sure is sweet. If you're interested, I can tell you how to make the brass, and there are way many more bullets out there than for the 41.

Gonna pick up another ARMS #18 base for a M1A and some ARMS QD rings (low) today unless someone can tell me a horror story quick. The other #18 is for my son. Hopefully he will actually want it when he gets a little older.

Back to long range stuff, I've seen the stuff you guys put out on the Leupold Mk4 M1 vs M3 debate out there, got to get one of them with the mil dot. Can't decide which. After ranging, you actually move the turrets? I do something probably slower, but I just know the drop and use one of the dots (or wherever) as the aiming point. Any help on my "crucial" decision would help. I called Leupold and the woman there said that it was the identical same scope, except that one had a BDC in 1 MOA and the other had a 1/4 MOA turret. Same internal adjustment range and everything, including same external dimensions.

No thoughts on sheep or kilts. Never wanted one to knock on my door and ask if I was his DAAAAAAADY!
Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 13:20:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.142)

Bolster & Carolina Dudes(Dudettes)+ ALL ERT/rescue personell

Try to stay dry and SAFE through the storm! You'll be in our prayers.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 13:37:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.52)

Our old friend Mr. Hoppes #9 is both a cleaner and a preservative.

Take a look at: http://www.hoppes.com/story.html

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 13:37:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

I was breaking in the stainless 20" on my Olympic last Sunday, and a person who competes in DCM regularly commented that my bullets would corkscrew at over 100 yds and be undesireable at competition distances out to 600 yards, and that I need a 1-in-8" twist. I have a 1-in-10" twist. The MFG info I've seen said this twist was on the low side of 50 to 69 grain weights. Is this fellow whistling Dixie?
C. Ross <chr@alanex.com>
Southern, Kalifornia, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 14:45:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.182.177.3)
On the bore, don't use PTFE based lubricants thing. How is the Tetra stuff (oil) as compared to Kroil? I have both and am not sure which to use. Also, what are some good aftermarket barrels for my PSS? Just foolin' around with a "dream gun" idea. I know of Krieger, Obermeyer, Rock, Shilen etc.....
Later.
Rich <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 14:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.196)
Hey all,
I'm new to the list and not in LE or Mil, just an avid long range shooter. I start rookie school in the spring so LE isn't far away. I have some questions about the Savage 110FP.
Has anyone shot it farther than 200yds? If so, who did it do? I'll be mounting a Tasco SS10x42. Is this a good combo? Once again, how do you rate this gun?(good, bad, ugly?)
Thanks to all and hope to have many more chats!

Doug
Doug Lewis <dougl3@prodigy.net>
Concord, NC, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 15:47:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.252.62.22)

B'ALMER (DUNDALK??)RICH,

TETRA is a PFTE type lube I do believe Kroil isn't to the best of my knowledge. A Kroil/Shooters Choice mixture is REAL popular in many shooting circles for cleaning and supposed to be benign to the bore.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIF@AOL.COM>
BIG WET CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 16:00:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.56)

Undude/Mike
I agree with you that Break Free is a bad thing to leave in the bore. However, I (and I'll bet others) interpreted your comment about "cuts down the effects of the rifling", to mean it is so very slick that it can cause the bullet to strip past the rifling. That seemed to be a bit extreem to me.

I have been taking your advice from these pages for some time. I guess that sort of makes me one of your students as well. Would you not expect a good student to raise his hand and challenge that which was misunderstood?
James HIcks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 16:49:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

James, I have to say I am sorry here for after reading my post I understand your confusion. Bottom Line is Breakfree and other Teflon based lubes do kill the acc. of a rifle and they do stick to the metal. I dont use them in the bore and I hope you dont. Once again I gave a short answer and did not go into detail. Mike
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 16:58:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.161)
Still on standby, the Feds can't figure out the scenerio yet. They don't want to make the mistake of predeploying to the wrong staging area this time. Gentlemen, take a look at pictures of you favorite SC and NC beach and give it a kiss. I may not be there after tomorrow night.

Daughter at East Carolina just emailed that they have cancelled classes so all of New Hanover and Pitt County will be dumping into I40.

Will see you on the dark side. Hope I don't have to cover hazmat from here. Would rather be on the road.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 17:39:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

On preservatives [I like mom's strawberry jam the best] I have found that RIG* Grease on the metal parts, Hoppes down the center, and a 50/50 mixture of tung oil and linseed oil on the wood [applied by rags that will spontaneously combust when thrown in the corner] keeps guns just fine. Break-free CLP is good if you are wrapping the gun in paper to store long-term.

3-n-1 sewing machine oil was about all my grandpa ever used. If he was still alive, he would smile to see that Mr. Parker hisself said it was recommended.

B. Rogers: WD-40 will melt the metal on your gun, turn wood into plastic, and make the plastic turn yellow. You had it all mixed up! Maybe that is why you haven't seen the problems yet:)

Ivan: Break-free is highly recommended for bores on Russian SVD's. Best way to store them is to cut a small dowel rod, turn the gun barrel down on the rod, filling the bore with Break-free. Store this way [preferably in alternating extreme temps hot/cold/hot] for at least 30 days, then, turn the weapon on its butt [do not drain first], repeat temp changes, then shoot. You can remove the rod, or not, before firing...makes no difference, but leaving it in will prevent dirt and debris from entering the bore on a crawl, assuming you have it in plug tight:) This stuff, applied lightly, will also prevent your glasses from fogging on a crawl. When you hear "Here, kitty, kitty," crawl toward the voice, sit up to wipe glasses, prepare for boarding.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 18:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

>>linseed oil on the wood [applied by rags that will spontaneously combust when thrown in the corner<<

Seriously folks, don't mess around with this stuff....seen a few fatal house fires started when handy husband used linseed oil with old poly/cotton T-shirt rag to do whatever...

YOU WILL GET A FIRE.....BAD STUFF!!!
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 18:56:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Does anyone know if Snap Caps are made for the .300 Win Mag?

I recently moved up to this caliber from a .308, and am having withdrawals because I can't do the dry firing that need to.

If anyone has any information on something that would work, please email me at mrouten@hotmail.com.

Thanks in advance,

Mike :-)
Mike <mrouten@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 19:20:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.76.2)

Boltster,
Keep your head down and you powder dry!!

Jeff A,
The N-550 looks like a good powder for the 260s, Pac Nor replaced my barrel but I went with a 308 instead of the 260 and will go to a lighter barrel for the 260 when the VLS gets shot out(Next summer). I needed another heavy 308 for those cop matches where you have to punch little dots out at 100 and 200yds. I will then keep the 260 in about the same contour as the Rem HB for the tough long range field tactical shoots. As you can see I have convinced myself that I need two rifles to shoot these matches(HA).

On the topic of break free I too tried the friction block on a barrel that wasn't shooting well and after treating it with friction block it really didn't shoot!! Moral of the story they either shoot or they don't. I agree with UnDude "Keepem DRY!!!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 19:31:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Snap Caps: Stay away from them. I can dry fire all day, everyday and never have a firing pin problem. Used Snap Caps once in a match chamber on a Rem 700 action and broke the extractor trying to get the thing out. Apparently it cracked when it was chambered because of it's sizing or swelling not being entirely correct and the match tolerance on the chamber didn't like it. Never again.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 19:51:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)
To all:

Hope that you all had the opportunity to read Norm and Rocky Chandler's article "On Sniper Rifle Stocks" in the Sept.-99 issue of TS. These are opinions that all practical shooters must respect since, as we all know, the Chandlers are not wannabees, they are they are the real thing. They state that "what a sniper needs is a hunter-style stock, an all-position stock, not a bench-resty marksmanship stock. A sniper is a big game hunter." "A cold first shot of great accuracy is essential. Shooting into one hole thereafter has limited application." They use the term "canoe plddle" to describe the present, trendy type stock used. " The proper stock should not be heavy...no protrusions....no excessive free-floating....minimum of adjustments.....handy...if still in doubt, examine out Marine and Army sniper stocks. No canoe paddles here.....why are we training and practising with such railroad ties?"
I believe that this is an issue that could be discussed on this forum, since we see a trend of getting more and more into gadgetary, 1600 yd. shooting, bipods to use for "colf course" shooting, highpower scopes, etc.

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
BC, Canada - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 20:40:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

To all,

I posted a month or so ago about my 308 barrel and the fouling problem that started out of the blue. The general conscience from most everyone was that I was cleaning too much. I could shoot 150 to 200 rounds between cleanings and never have any fouling. I shoot moly bullets and I know how most of you feel about them, but they work for me. Then out of the blue (no pun intended) I have bad fouling after as few as 5 shots. Well, I shot 150 rounds this past weekend between cleanings and I still had a bad fouling problem, but no real loss of accuracy. I'm lost as to what to do next. The barrel has about 1500 total round through it. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. Also, if I decide to rebarrel (which I doubt) what twist do you all recommend. 1 in 12, 1 in 10 or 1in 11.2. Pros and cons on each twist rate would be appreciated.

For all of you on the eastern seaboard, be safe and our thoughts and prayers are with you.

Thanks

Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 20:54:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 157.234.250.2)

Hans,

That sounds suprisingly like a H-S Precision Police stock or the Mac-Bros M40A1 doesn't it?

I find it interesting that article ran a month after Un-Dudes review of the A-4 design. But then we do have a couple "other" designs that are questionable.

Sure hope a "new" stock thread does not start a nuclear war in some third world country....

Ah America, where we can all have opinions and fight with each other for fun.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 20:55:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.194)

Stocks: Everyone has an opinion. Ifyou think the A4 is a paddle and no good, saying look at what the Marines are using. Well the Marines are switching to the A4 Stock. They have put it on the new M40A3 Rifle. Guys just because someone says something doesn't make it so. Use what ever stock feels good to you. The A4 is an outstanding stock design. Not a paddle. I have shot many stocks from field positions and this is my current favorite. I admit the damm thing is ugly, but it works and that is what I am after. I used a M40A1 stock for over ten years and this is better. I only speak as someone who has used most of the stocks. Not a wanna bee here, maybe a has been. When I shoot High Power I notice many different types and configurations of equipment. Every one there thinks they have it figured out. My education on rifles comes from using and not reading in Peterson Publishing so I may have missed soemthing.
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 22:28:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.184)
Rich:

You asked about Tetra and Kroil. I do not think either will cause harm to your bore. I've used Tetra gunlube primarily as the "last light coat" step for storage/protection. However, I would run 2-3 dry patches just before I would shoot to remove excess. Lately I've user a combo of Kroil with JB of Iosso paste. This works quite well. I shoot molyed bullets. This sort of my current regimen (suggested by Berger, I think) for use with molyed bullets. At, end of cleaning, I run a couple of patches wet with Kroil, then a couple of dry patches. I think Kroil is more of a penetrator lube than tetra and may not offer long term potection like tetra and some others. Whatever the lube , I will run dry patches before shooting. The barrels seem to be in good shape, and the accuracy thus far is very good.

PeteR:

Quibber... nice word you got there. I have some that I like. "Bolus" referring to giving an I.V. injection kinda fast. Also, "ichor". Really nice one there. "Excuse me ma'am, I just need to step into the men's room for a quick bolus of ichor." Doesn't make shit for sense but it rolls smoothly off the tongue when spoken sotto voce... Oh, one more: Tritetramethylbenzocarbonethylene...

Pat:

What's gonna be the twist on the new .308 fat barrel? Alzheimer's riddled minds want to know. You say 550 for the .260. Might try it.I beleive you and Bill Richter mentioned approx. 40.0 gr. You've been a very generous with your load info re: .260.. Thank you. Hven't had occasion to use the data wrist bands yet.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 22:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Jeff A.

"Totally Bogus" "Oh thats Bogus Man(dude)" I know, is Bolus kinda like pushing a quick D-50 on a diaphretic(sp?)hypoglycemic patient? Tritetramethylbenzocarbonethylene damn is that something you made behind the counter at you last job?
and a dose of potassiumaluminumsulfatedodecahydrate in your cup sir!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 23:02:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.46)

Okay! So now my poor choice of rifle, a Ruger M77 chambered in 300WM, has been royally trashed by the experts. It has been a good provider of meat for the table but I have noticed it really wasn't putting them where I was looking. Now I know it couldn't be me, so I guess the question is do I pawn it off on another obvious fool or do I try to rebarrel? I've spent some time with this rifle and like the "feel" and look of it and as I previously mentioned, it has been a great provider. I've just recently became interested in trying long range accuracy, Have to have a hobbey between seasons, and thanks to your postings have arrived at this crossroads. So, deferring to the obvious expertise of your members I ask the "Question" Would I be better off rebarreling a rifle I'm accustomed to (assuming that it can be done) or starting out with a new rifle? Any feedback would be appreciated!
Thanks
Ken Race <irace@mbs.imag.net>
Vancouver, B.C., Canada - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 23:20:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.63.237)
Does anyone have any experience with Leupolds QI carry handle mount for the AR-15/M-16??? Good, bad what can you tell me about it!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 23:22:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.55)

I have been using nothing but BreakFree on my rifles for quit a while now. Like someone mentioned earlier, of course we all would run dry patches before shooting. I have never had a problem with accuracy or CBS zero shifts. One of the things I like about it is that being a cleaner, lubricant and protectant it is still working for you when it is left in the bore. I used to use Hoppes #9 and didnt notice any problems when I switched over. Maybe its just me but I like the stuff.
TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 23:23:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.36)
READ THIS IF YOU WANT MAX VELOCITIES, ANY BULLET, ANY RIFLE (the bottom)

B. Douglas, thanks for the complement (I think), just please don't mention my name in the same sentence as sheep! You know they all lie!

Ordered the ARMS QD rings. I know I'm not going for the kind of accuracy and range that you guys go for, just what I can get from a gas gun, so with this in mind, am I screwing myself (again, not sheep) or will this work fine?
My major problem is that I enjoy shooting this thing with iron sights way too much (SA-M1A NM) and don't want to permanently afix a telescope on it.
 

For you loading guys, an old friend of mine (and a pretty good gunsmith), as well as my spotter (spelled MENTOR) when I first started this game once told me a way to get some amazing velocities out of my M1A. I was belly aching one day about how slow my 168's went in comparrison to those (youse) bolt guys. He told me how to get an extra 500FPS!!! out of my M1A. First strip the receiver, and polish the back deck to a brilliant mirror finish. The back deck being where the "Springfield" stuff is stamped in. The next step was to refinish it by plating it in bright polished nickel. Of course, just a beginner, I was starting to question this methodology, but I took him for his word. The next step is to stamp in "RAVEN ARMS" where the "Springfield" was, and nickel plate the rest of the rifle. This was to be topped with a fake pearl inlaid stock. As he explained it, my new loading technique would not need powder or primers, making it much less expensive per box. The idea was that the bullets are so ashamed and embarrassed at being put in such a dog ugly rifle, they try to escape at max (almost suicidal) velocities. Don't even have to pull the trigger. That's the ticket you guys should try! Should work for Remingtons, Winchesters, what have you.

Besides, makes it easier for these old eyes to see you!
Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 23:54:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.162)

HELP.....does anyone know a distributor who has a Remington 700 PPS for sale and will sell it directly to an officer. Wing
Stephen Tryon <ST929@juno.com>
Claremore, OK, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 00:31:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.209)
Ken Race, Re: 300 Win Mag in RUGER. Don't ditch the Ruger!! Sure we slam the Ruger but its not so much the weapon as the man !! I have a Ruger M77 in .308... all you need to do is - Freefloat barrel, Marine-Tex bed the action, add decent recoil pad and mount a decent scope !! Then SHOOT !! Good Luck.

About the "Break Free" stuff, wise and older , former Master Armorer from MTU told me to give my Break Free, Tetra, etc, to someone I didn't want to beat me in matches !! I think Jeff A knows the amn who told me that !! hehehehe...any way, using Shooters Choice & Kroil DOES work quite well as does a synthetic oil named. "Militec-1". HAve been using Militec for over 5 years and just in the last 2 years have started using it as a mix with Shotters Choice...No breakdown OR seperation !! Can't say the same for CLP-Break Free. Thats INHO
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
Ala, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 00:50:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.16.244.104)

Bravo...
Sheeps don't lie!... but they do kiss and tell!

About ugly guns. A Marine chopper pilot told me that they had proved that helicopters areodynamically can't fly!... but they're so ugly, the earth repells them.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 00:54:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)

The Chandler article raises some good points, Many of which can be experienced chasing Bambi or elk. Nice bit of irony, though, witness the "pirogue pole" on the back cover. If you buy into their (Chandler's) wisdom, try John Baier's ad in Emporium. I think he got the Marine take-offs.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 01:24:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.83)

This may seem like a real stupid question, but where does one go to buy a model 70 HV stainless synthetic in .308? I've won three straight games of "stump the gun store" with this one.

CDC
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 02:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.100)

OLD DOG;your funny. But on to serous stuff. WD-40&Breakfree;I dont use ether.My smith said the only thing WD-40 is good for is to "REMOVE THE LACKER BUILD UP FROM WD-40". On the subject of Breakfree;If you dig out Handloader magazine issue number 168 (March/April 94)and read page 8 you will find the equipment Frank Weber used when he set the WORLD RECORD 1000yrd 10 shot group down to 3.960 in. "Cleaning procedure:Uses BreakFree and Sweets7.62and accuracy does not taper off untill over 25 to 30 rounds,then cleaning is required." Thought you might find that interesting! I clean with RB-17 and use light oil for storage.No problems yet.I have been looking for Kroil but dont know were to find it in madison. As far as sheep are concerned(Take it from Redneck in dairy country )yuo aint had your dick sucked till its been sucked by a newborn calf!!!
Dan <remingtonultramag@hotmail.com>
MADCITY, WI, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 02:23:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 156.46.65.190)
Father; I have sinned. I have used the M-77 Ruger on occasion. Despite the sun bright blue barrel and the stock cleverly fashioned from packing crate lumber it did in fact fire the cartridge. The trigger mechanism was manageable and other than the fact that the barrel wouldn't hold a decent group at any range it did work. Bottom line is that I've seen worse. Provided you didn't overtighten the middle screw and warp the magazine beyond all redemption it would feed once in a blue moon. Seriously they do work.... end of story.
Ruger's most accurate M-77 was the .220 swift 26 in var barrel and the .243 regular barrel. Finicky but it did 1moa on occasion. I had a Ruger Ultra light .308 that wouldn't hit your hat at 200 meters with the best load I could put in it. 3 22-250's that wouldn't break 1.5moa. A 25-06 that would do 1.5 moa and a 338 that would do 2" no problem until you got the stock a little damp and the best floating job would wind up touching the stock. The new Mark series is an accident waiting to happen. The trigger is scary (redesigned to be politically correct). Pass this turkey up for a Rossi!
Stephan; go over to Tulsa next month around the 18th or so and go to the big gun show! Take the cash and you should find a PSS. Or call Gene Sear (distributor) in El Reno Okla. He can probably find you one.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 02:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
I would venture to say that rigging up Christmas tree lights after a six pack is more likely to kill the household than oiling your gun stock, but, be prudent. If you use linseed oil, read the directions and dispose of the rag properly when done. Stuffing it in an ammo can has always worked for me.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
safetyville, IN, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 02:37:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Jeez, what an evening !! Can't type for $%^^&... oh well, One more thing about the Rugers...buy a Timmney trigger also and if you have a factory barrel get a Douglas XX ! Forgot to mention those two items.
Has anyone moly'd any Barnes "X" bullets for hunting ? Would like info ,mainly for .308 Win (of course !!) If so, email me with results, please.

PeteR, Will have that info after this weekend, finally got what I needed for further testing, "other half" bought me a chrony !! Should be here before weekend shoot !
Militec has a website, but darn if I know how to make a goto !!
Anyone had usage of Celestron telescopes?? Good, bad or ugly ??
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
You-know-where, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 02:55:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.16.244.104)

Ok guys theres a Arcade game you have to try out called "Silent Scope" I severely Ticket off the Kiddies at the arcade the other day dumping a wad into this stupid game.And yes you guessed it your a sniper, anyhow check it out its fun and I think good practice.

On the .45 Vs. 9mm Ill take the .45 any day of the week, heard way to many horror stories bout the nine. Course then again I also like a .38 special wich isnt supposed to be worth a hoot but capones hit men loved it and Teddy Rosevelt liked it as well.

On Bipods, I cannot for the life of me understand all the fuss about Harris Bipods,,as far as I know they do not pan and only some can cant. I just bought a el cheapo bi pod out of cheaper than dirt for 30 bucks that Pans and tilts with spring loaded adjustable legs. I just cant figure out what good a bipod is in the field if you cannot Pan with it.

One more thing for all you zealots that never take your guns out of the range. I am a local ContractorHad a job in Hellville up in the mountains where alot of "wackos" have moved, anyhow point being cops dont like this area any more than any local so I took it upon myself to pack a Pistola wich I do not like to do as Immage to Customer. Any how on this particular job was alot of digging so I was in and out of trenches all day. I had a custom very tightfitting holster on my pistol (I wont say what it was Ill get laughed right off the site, only reason I used this besides a good one was becouse I knew it would get real dirty and banged up). Any how I wasnt doing any crawling or anything else I would have been doing in war ect. However when I got home that night I took the pistol out of the holster and you should have seen the sand drain out, Needless to say I spent about a hour taking the damn thing entirely apart to get at every last grain of dirt. Anyhow point of this is how many guns will operate under this condition?Im sure damned near every gun will operate great at the range all day without jams but very few will under true field conditions. Believe me from now ON all my side holsters will have a top flap to cover them up. Just a friendly reminder

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 03:57:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.96.42.142)

I have to jump in here on the stock issue that is starting to come up. I read the article and hated every bit of it. One thing I have learned in this business is that there are as many methods or techniques as there are shooters (snipers). What works for shooter #1 may not work for shooter #2. I try to tell people I teach that almost everything is a technique and everybody's is slightly different. Take a little bit from every instructor or each person you shoot with and build your own technique. That goes for equipment too. If a HS stock feels good and works well with your rifle, then great, if you need something else then try it. Find the right combination of equipment and shooting techniques that work for you.
Additionally, if we all stuck with "old methods" and 'old technology" then where would we be today? Didn't people once believe that the world was flat? Yet someone went against the grain and found out differently. Same thing applies here with equipment. Some people are living in the past. Why do they fear advancement in technology? If something doesn't work, then the shooters (as represented here) will shoot it down after trying it and it fails.
This article just hit a nerve. I hate when people use absolutes and that's pretty much how I read that article. If you didn't stick with the "old style stock" then you were "absolutely wrong."

Thomas, Director for Sniper's Paradise

Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of , Texas, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 04:18:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.247.107.205)

Well another nut went crazy! This time in a church in Fort Worth TX, Seven dead and thank goodness the gunman as well. I am afraid that this will really propell any pending anti gun legislation into "law" as soon as possible. Read the latest about it at: http://www.mercurycenter.com/breaking/docs/047104.htm Unfortunately, more dark times ahead for law abiding gun owners! My prayers and sympathies for the dead and their families.
michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 04:32:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)
HI GUYS EXELENT SITE MOST IMPREST. IM X MILITARY AND DO MOST
OF MY SHOOTING ON OPEN FARM LAND , AS OUR BUSH [JUNGLE]
DOSEN`T GIVE MUCH OPPOTUNITY FOR EXTENDED SHOT`S
I`LL KEEP AN EYE ON YOU GUY`S GOOD TO SEE
A FOROM FOR PRO`S BUY PRO`S
RICH
Richard Orsulich <pz6500@hotmail.com>
TAURANGA, NORTH ISLAND, NEW ZEALAND - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 06:50:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.55.126.204)
Well, since some people have managed to comment on the current hurricaine, while this one is pounding us, and is big and nasty, look further east, follow the tracks. Gert is comin in on the heals, maybe a week behind. It's a lot stronger, and they are figuring it is gonna get bigger. It looks a lot like it's gonna follow a really similar path, we on the coast are gonna get nailed again it looks like.

On another note: someone made the observation that vests with the pockets on the front are uncomfortablke for prone and similar positions. A vest for snipers is made, I believe by blackhawk. It has the pockets in the rear, postioned so you can grab the stuff in em. I could see use for SWAT guys, but overall, it does not seem to desirable. I have to argree with most, a good belt setup is hard to beat, as can be a proper pack. Vests are good for short term applications, such as a SWAT or HRT callout. For anything over a few hours or a day, go for something more versatile, and comfortable.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Wet and windy, maryland, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 09:45:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.11)

Anyone want to buy a Hensoldt PSG1 6x42 illuminated reticle scope, $400 US. If so send me an e-mail. Cheers Robbie
robbie Tiffen <gunworks@hotmail.com>
CHCH, New Zealand - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 10:41:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.55.149.10)
Jeff A,
I went with the 1-12 again, with a 5 land and grove. I thought about the 1-11 but I will probably stay with the 168s since I push them to around 2800 and they have shot well to 1000yds for me in my other 308.I have shot 175s in the 1-12 and I have had no problems at all with them like some people have. I have not shot a lot of them only some to test to see how they shot. The longest range I have shot them was at 600yds and they were Black Hills 175s and they shot nearly identical to the 168 varget load other than being a few inches lower.I had a chance to break it in last night and then put one five shot group through it. It went into a .49 for 5 shots so maybe it will be a shooter. The Pac Nor barrels are really smooth and I think they break in in about 10 rounds. I put 30 rounds through it last night and the barrel is like glass. I want to try some N-140 and see how that does my Hart barrled 308 would shoot it in the .3s all day long. Let me know how the 550 does for you Bill has really had good luck with it.

Mike,
I agree with you on stocks, its really a matter of personal preference but once again I find myself on the other side and its strictly a personal thing because of the kind of shooting that I do. I like the classic style of stocks without all the adjustments because of my size and build I have no trouble with any length of pull and I have always mounted my scopes as close to the barrels as possible so I have no need for a adjustable cheek piece either. To me these are all unnecessary weight to carry. I have even gone away from the real heavy barrels back to the Varmint weight or one step heavier for my tactical shooting. On the other side of the family my son loves the new H&S pro series stock that I won out in Wyoming and now has it on "His" 308 snd he liked the adj, M-24 and I didn't, so I guess it all boils down to our needs and likes. I did enjoy your reviews on the stocks and I agree with you on the H&S stock since thats one I am familiar with, keep on telling it like it is!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 13:27:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Stocks; For all thats been said here I have never posted a word on the subject. So what the heck? There are only 2 kinds! Wood and Good.
In the good there is the gooder with the pillar bedding. Cheek pieces and other stuff such as recoil absorbers Length adjusters and stuff are just gadgets like Pat said just more weight to carry around. I try not to get the stock too confining as to the position it will force me into. Things such as pistol grip, thumbhole wide foreend, stuff like that all have a place in the target world where the shooting position is going to known and planned for. I like the factory remington stocks as good as anything and more better I like them because I don't have to spend 400 more to get something that's 1% better. I like the PSS stock but quite frankly it is too big and cumbersome in crawl situations a lot of the time. The Marine Stock is much more practical for that kind of work and I have to go with plaster as to what works for hunting probably will be the Sniper's choice too. I don't mean to treat the stock issue too lightly and some are quite intriging to look at but they are so heavy they suck!
I have never found one that is the best under any position and condition but the HS comes as close as any.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 14:04:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Stocks; one last thought! In the wood there is the Laminated. If you have to do wood do Laminate. It comes as close to good as wood can do.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 14:06:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Good afternoon Ladies and gentleman. I thought I'd just drop by for a minute to see how everyone is doing. I have not had a chance to read the roaster since, I think, May! Hopefully that'll change come Fall. But admittedly, one reason I didn't keep up with it was the incessant infighting. We try to give you an interesting site and I hate to see it brought down by misunderstanding and close mindedness.

I see we are still having some issues in terms of strong opinions and over active sensitivities. Guys something you all have to remember; no matter how much you love your individual nations or favorite firearms, those outside of your life experience will have different views based on the "facts" they have on hand. Funny thing about facts is that often, they represent what you are TOLD, not what is actually true. As gun owners in America, you should instantly understand this by virtue of the way you are treated by your own media. You think it is any different elsewhere? Never forget that a mission of humanitarian aid to us can be viewed as an invasion of sovereignty to someone else. Perspective rules opinion.

In the US it is easy to take a smug outlook at the rest of the world. But the simple fact is that our government screws up as much as the next. More in some ways. BUT we needn't be defensive about it on this site. WE, the individual, didn't give the government permission to screw up. It wields its power often with out concern for how the individual thinks. SO why piss on a foreigner when you disagree with him? He is no more his government than you are yours. Among our selves we bitch about our own gove'mint as much as someone from another shore does! We needn't get a burr up our butt every time someone drops in here and voices an opinion at odds with our own. Nor do you need to burn up the Ethernet with scathing remarks to that individual. I can not tell you how disappointed I get when I see this sort of thing. It is as if grown adults suddenly turn into children. Even the people I respect the most in this field have short fuses and forget about perspective at times. The roster has suffered countless incidents where a foreigner has said one thing and an American has taken it to mean something else and followed up by going ballistic before verification.

The short of it: Leave politics off the Roster. At SC we do not care how you feel about country A or political leader B. We are about education in firearms, tactics, LE support, and equipment. We welcome Russians, Finns, Nipponese, Georgians, Lithuanians and even the occasional Arkansan. Don't be so sensitive or quick to temper. Let the pissing matches be left to our respective leaders. Sniper Country is about the shooting community. Lets keep it there.

I am always interested in the tactical deployment of snipers from all over the world. I do not have to agree with doctrine to find it fascinating. Same with firearms. I could care less if you like Remington, Savage, Ruger, Winchester, Kalishnikov's, HKs, or any other brand. No one should berate you for your choice.

Sorry for the rant. I know return you to your regular programming.

Be back, I hope, come October….dos Vadonia, Sa Wa De Krup, Gutten Tag, and AMF!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 16:00:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Almost forgot some Admin notes:

Look shortly for some choice words on what happens when you make threats against political leaders and foolishly post them to a member of the SC staff. It ain't no joke folks. I forward everything to the Secret Service.

Also, Derrick Bartlet of SniperCraft has requested those of you in law enforcement stop by his site and fill out incident forms which will be used to train LE snipers. He is looking for Lessons Learned material on call outs, even one where nothing happened. There is something to learn each time you go forth. Please share it with those in your community. See our main page for Derricks request. It should be up soon.

Also, there is an excellent way for those of you in LE to exchange knowledge with your brothers. Check out the link to Snipers Online in our hot links section. This is for LE only and is administrated by a fellow officer. Topics include many you will not see here for obvious reasons.

Neither Snipers Online or SniperCraft is affiliated with Sniper Country, but as a professional courtesy, we want you to have access to these opportunities.

Lastly, for those of you who are in the military or are law enforcement officers, a new monthly periodical is available to you for your further education. It is called Minute Of Angle is costs $18 a year. We shoud have a link to this soon. It is informative and worth the money.

That is all.

SNP
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 16:10:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)

Couple of beefs here: Scott, although I respect your opinion and efforts to provide SC as a forum for all of us, I disagree with the restrictions on classes, info, and so forth to LEO only. Your fellow, Joe ordinary citizen/American, is a decent, law abiding person, and should be able to get the same training as a sworn officer.

And tied into that, Mike of the "latest rampage" bulletin, WE are not to blame for any actions but our own. Why play the Chicken Little role, rather than condemning ONLY the s.o.b. who did the crime?!!! Judge me not by what I might do, or could do, or what people who share a hobby do. Judge me on my actions. If some loser rapes another woman, do your fear for your genitals? Ditto if some drunk whacks somebody with his car. Are you getting set to give up your ride? Hell no. So don't react the way the media has programmed this issue to affect people. Speak the truth and fight the good fight.

I'm not looking to get flamed. I'm sick of the climate of distrust that is the basis of the gun-control issue.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 16:56:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.49.189)

Can anyone with a Tasco SS 10X42 tell me what size Butler Creek covers to order?

Thanks
Tony M <tmacke@ibm.net>
BC, Canada - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 18:29:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.25.150.105)

Wills,

regarding your response to Scott's note. Not criticising or flaming or whatever you want to call it, but sit down and think a bit. Also remember I am from South Africa, so already there is a difference in laws, ideas, cultures etc. And also remember I am not LE either. And remember that, despite me addressing you by name, it is merely because I just signed on, saw Scott's note (most probably he sent me mail on it as well which I have not received/read yet) and saw your note. This is addressed to you, myself and every other visitor of this site.

BUT, having said all that, if I was LE I WOULD MOST DEFINATELY not want to have each and every ordinary citizen to have the exact same training and experience than myself. What would be my edge then? What would I have to pull out of the hat that he doesn't know up front I'm going to do already?

And let us be honest with one another. If all those classes and information is available to one and all, who is going ot benefit most from it? Ordinary Joe Citizen? Nope. Nick the Criminal is. Why? Becuase it gives him the edge, or at least takes it away from the LE types.

So, would I like as LEO Marius Ferreira for Joe Citizen to have that info? NOPE. Would I as Ordinary Citizen Marius Ferreira like to have that information? YOU BET! But I can understand why LE need and in themselves require at least some sort of "closed information" opportunity. And therein lies MY acceptance of such things.

And these thoughts are mine, as Webmaster for Sniper Country, AND ALSO my own, personal opinion.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 19:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

To those who commented on my Remington ADL question: Thank you!

Marius: regarding the LEO information: I guess your stance on this is fair, assuming that you also recognize LE and the government in general as being legitimate. Personally I don't much myself. Being as I'm in SA too and did you know that apparently a cop in our lovely country is about 3 times more likely than an average citizen to commit a violent crime?
Just open a newspaper for a week in a row and some cop or sargent, or ex SANDF guy (why one just today or yesterday went ballistic and killed 7 people before being gunned down like the dog he was by fellow soldiers in fact) will have been involved in some vicious crime. So do I want them to have better training and info than is available to me or to you? NO! For one they already outgun us (we can't have R4s can we....) for another they are less likely to be honest citizens (on a representational basis) than non LE citizens, and for yet another, especially in SA, the only guys who have the time, money, equipment and effort to learn all this fancy stuff is not your average car-hijacker. (Although some new SANDF types have become better hijackers after receiving training with your tax money and mine...).

Basically my attitude is that no human has the right to enforce his will on another, and until that universal and natural truth applies, I don't see why I should be limited in any way as to what I can learn, see, read, think or do. Provided of course, i don't in turn try to impose my will on another or infringe on their civil liberties. And for all the help I have ever got out of cops in my whole life, I sure wouldn't have noticed if they just up and got zapped to another Galaxy tomorrow.
Joe
PS: not looking to start a flame war either, just expressing my opinion (all of you with fingers poised to denounce this vile anarchist just remember...YOU are responsible for your feelings. Not *me*...YOU. Only YOU....)

Joe <russellp@iafrica.com>
cape town, SAfrica - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 22:11:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.31.0.186)

Flipup scope covers:

Need a quick (good) source for flip-open scope covers - like the ones by Butler Creek. The ones that I ordered from Micheals of Oregon supposedly shipped on the 10'th via ups - still not here in Virginia. I'm looking for a quick alternative source incase those I ordered don't make it in a reasonable time.

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 16, 1999 at 22:43:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

I have a McMillan built Remington 700 long action with USMC taper stainless barrel,M40 stock and bottom metal. The rifle is chambered in 30.06 and uses a Leupold M1LR mil dot scope mounted via. MK4 rings and a 2pc.base. The trouble I am having is with the 2pc. base. I want to purchase a starlight scope, PVS2B or SC/PVS-300. Everyone seems to be using some variant of the ELCAN mount and it will not fit the long action.
Does anyone know of a sniper grade mount that will allow me to use my day scope with MK4 rings in the daytime and change over to the starlight scope at night?
Thanks,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 01:10:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.228)
HUmpH! Lemme see here!
"BUT, having said all that, if I was LE I WOULD MOST DEFINATELY not want to have each and every ordinary citizen to have the exact same training and experience than myself. What would be my edge then? What would I have to pull out of the hat that he doesn't know up front I'm going to do already?" Quote from Marius's post.

Marius has his finger on the problem! I have no problem with LE discussing their tactics in private and they have no obligation to train so Called Law Abiding Citizens or gang members in their tactics under the freedom of information act! (JOKE).
But I do have a problem with Eliteness!
If you are Law Enforcement and you think that Eliteness will protect you and there are no Citizens/ Gangmembers/Scumbags that can or will shoot your lights out with you doing your best....tsk tsk! Better button up your vest! That is the kind of thinking that brought about the last scene in the WACO tragedy! Remember the LE group dragging off their wounded! IT is this Eliteness that is your enemy! A badge has never graced my chest and that is not to say I would not wear it proudly. But .... I would hope that my defense would be my skill and PRACTICE! And not my believe in my Eliteness that would shield me that day like the Marshal's bullet dented badge in some 1950
's western movie! Ed Mcgivern (if I can drop a name) never wore a badge or got into a gun fight! Had the likes of Mr. Earp or Wild Bill Hickock had the unfortunate luck to encounter him in a gunfight the History of the West would have been different or I miss my guess. Sorry for the name dropping and the comparison but I have a point to make!
IF you want to survive a gun battle of anykind you must train your mindset and practice with and maintain your weapon as good as you can or you may become a statistic. I've even seen it even in local Mock/training gunfights and matches. I would be hard to convince that this Eliteness Halo doesn't exist. Your arguement is not with me if you think it is wrong then smile to yourself and take comfort in your Bullet proof Cloak of Ego. But be wise in your choice of Vest material.
I agree with Scott that the Political discussion gets out of hand here. I have never considered freedom a Political Issue but to discuss the virtues of one Government vs another or one political philosophy over another does border on areas where we probably should not go if we are to enjoy the benefit of Sniper technology world wide! I hope this stays an International exchange open to all and a kind of comradeship will continue to exist between riflemen/Snipers.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 02:04:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hi. Thanks to all for the advice on the National ord.1903-A3 receiver.
Decided to leave it alone.

I have used Hoppes and 3-in 1 oil for most of my guns for 25 yrs. without any trouble. I do use breakfree on my .45 slide rails and barrel
exterior.
keep up the good work
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 03:36:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.83)

Okay, I've been busy recently and haven't been keeping up as much as I'd like, so I'll hit the recent threads quickly...

1) WD-40: The WD in WD-40 stands for "Water Dispersant formula version #40" or some such notion... it wasn't designed to to be a lubricant, cleaner, etc... it's best for wet distributor caps, etc. It does great in a pinch for other things, but it shouldn't be a first-choice under most applications.I'd go with Hoppes or Shooter's Choice.

2)CLP: Yes, the military issues CLP for M-16s, M249s, etc., but notice that the Marine Corps does NOT use it on sniper rifles... If your accuracy doesn't have to be needle-like, then it's fine stuff. I'd use it on semi-auto pistols, M-16s (non-sniper grade ones), shotguns, etc... If you're "aiming" for better accuracy, keep away from it.

3) 9mm vs .45: Okay, my 2 cents here. The biggest advantage I can see to a 9mm over a .45 would be magazine capacity. Round per Round, I'd take the .45 any day, but when you are looking at 7 rounds to 15, the higher capacity is attractive. Noting that shot placement is paramount (remember, one shot, one kill, even with our handguns), then a .22 would suffice under many conditions. However when in combat, duress can ruin your marksmanship... I'd have more confidence in an off-center placed .45 hurting the baddie than I would an mis-placed 9mm round. The only other reasons to favor a 9mm that I can easily see is that A) it would probably have a wider availability of ammo at hand in various parts of the world (more of a concern for military snipers), and B) if you're using it in conjunction w/ a sub-gun (such as an MP5), and want to maintain interchangability. (I.E. M-14 + M-60, or M-16 + M249).

For the record, I carry a hi-cap .45; I love my Para-Ordnance!

4) Kilts: Okay, laddies! Who else here besides me actually OWNS a kilt? Who else besides me has actually WORN it? In public?? Hmmmm... I haven't ever shot while wearing it, though.... something new to try... don't think it'd be a good idea to shoot prone on windy days, though... !!!!!

L8R, gents....

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN-VA line, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 04:40:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.92.211)

Leslie-

Not only do I own a kilt, have worn it several times in public, got married in it, but I make them. The older style great kilts that is. Yes, they are *THE* most comfortable garment a man can own, assuming you are confident enough to wear it, and wear it properly. This is *way off topic*, but hey, it's fun. Actually, a kilt makes a great hunting/stalking garment. The great kilt, when worn properly, can have the upper half brought up over the head, much like a veil. You can carry *TONS* of stuff in em and no one would know. Keep you warm in the cold, and comfortable in the heat. If you choose the plaid properly, you have an effective cammo coloration for your AO. Plus, it is multi purpose, it doubles as a tent (warm weather recomended only), a blanket, or you can just pull the "pouch" over one shoulder adn curl up and sleep in it (works great when your to drunk to think about undressing). If one studies the history of the thing, you will notice that nearly every tartan (what the plaid patern is called) developed a "hunting" varient. Usually subdued in color, and worked quite well. I have not shot in mine yet, though it would work fine, as the extra material is traditionally draped over the left shoulder for a male, right for females, unless she is a chief or chieftain in her own right. For you lefties, all you gotta do is pull the but just under the edge as you place it in the shoulder. For those that may be confused (I am, as to how I got tired enough to post this mch on this topic, in htis place), a great kilt looks *basically* like the ones in Braveheart, though they cheated a bit. The ones like you see in the Black Watch regiment of England, and the tower gaurds, are modern, or small kilts. Anyone who actually wants more info on this subject, feel free to email me. I can even, like i said, make you one if ya really want, and I am not that expensive. now, as for lessons putting it on, if your not close enough for ust to meet, that could prove fun.....

Quickbow- <Who does not care if he gets laughed at in his kilt>
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Windy and cool, Maryland, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 05:53:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13)

On the topic of ugly guns that is my nickname from AR15.com. I picked the name when I was thinking of building up my first AR. I wanted to use; a DPMS grey upper, lower, and stainless barrel all fitted with Armalite green furniture. A ugly gun for certain. But at lass I settled on a DPMS stainless lower fitted with a JP grade one upper.
http://exo.com/~stone/competition.jpg

B. Douglas (aka uglygun) <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Ca. (I hate this state), USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 06:23:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.135.15.26)

Wow, how do you do these things? It's been a while since I've had to introduce myself in a NG. Well, this isn't a NG exactly but, I feel you guys should know who I am before we converse. It's only polite.
Anyway, hello. My name is Sean. (I feel like I'm in an AA meeting, and I'm not even old enough to drink). I am 18 (please don't hold this against me). For now, I only own two rifles. A 10-22 with all the standard target gear, and a Winchester 77 tube magazine. They're extremely fun to shoot. At the risk of sounding brash and insensitive, have you ever hit a frog while it was sitting on a stump and watch it jump 10 feet in the air (not on it's own power mind you)? Let's just say you won't stop laughing for several minutes. But I really want to get into long range, high precision shooting. Especially coyotes and ground squirel hunting. I know, I know, I sound like I belong in a hunting NG rather than a sniper. And besides, the methods used for sniping are the same as those used for hunting. Eventually, I plan on getting a Rem. 700-VS, if I can find one. Well, I should probably shut up and stop wasting space. I hope I can add something importance and relevence to this place every once in a while. Thanks.
Sean <yhwh@c-zone.net>
Redding, Ca, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 07:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.155.77.147)
To all,
I try to follow the forum as much as my time permits and i must say that i am very impressed.I have learned much from this forum as i have from SC in general.Some people views i take into consideration more than others but that is from what i have read,how they have responded to posts,in the manner they have responded and most of all the effort thats most people who frequent this forum put in to help others of the same intrest.Bravo.
Having said that,I must agree, as I usually do, with B.Rogers on the subject of 'Eliteness'.I have seen it time and time again from friends of mine who are LE and others who are not friends.As far as training goes,I believe that anyone who is intrested should be able to receive the same level of training,be it from private sources or otherwise,as LE if they are willing to dedicate their time and money into doing so.As far as LE having the edge,with all the hazards they must face, I believe that they should and deserve to.As another person posted though,they do have their own tactics,they do outgun us and have access to an extensive information database about us,etc.,etc.
Aside from voicing my own humble opinion on this matter I do have a question about BreakFree.A friend of mine recently purchased a Field Cleaning kit from BlackHawk,and included in the kit was,you guess it,BreakFree CLP.Whats the story???
Anyway,To all in the Military and LE,be safe and carefull and we all pray for you.
Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
Queens, NY, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 07:27:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.88.139)
Why is the PSG1 so expensive? Is it really that accurate?
Black Knight <trosmena@skyinet.net>
- Friday, September 17, 1999 at 07:59:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.78.65.92)
Quickbow, thanks. For some reason I'm not able to see my posts until someone else posts their message and I guess I left out something in the text. What'd I leave out of the text inorder to post the pic? And since I'm new around here do you guys like to keep the posting of pics to a minimum or do you not mind? It's not something I do often anyway just thought I'd post a pic. of the rifle that gave me my nickname.

Sean, I've done similar things with squirrels. My recent record for flea bag tossing is 7 feet in the air and about 15 feet back. I hit him at about 75 yards while he was hunched over. I get similar results out to about 200 yards while using 40-50grn. bullets in the V-max, Blitz King, and Speer TNT styles. Three to four feet of air is common if I center mass the rats as if they were soda bottles.
B. Douglas (aka. uglygun) <bpearson@bc.cc.ca.us>
Bakersfield, Ca.(get me outta here!), USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 08:03:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.135.15.26)

Couple of questions:

1 Anyone have any experience/thoughts on the BSA red dot scopes? Want to try o ne out, and they are pretty affordable. I know skimping on optics is bad, but I am not sure howe I am gonna like the system, and it is goin on a MAK90. Will be used for target and hunting. brush coutry here, and shots are not far :( and sometimes come quick.

2 Anyone seen the B-Square handgaurd mount for the AK/MAK rifles? Can't find a pic, or see exactly how it mounts. Also, I have heard rumours of a scope mount for the AK/MAK rifles that replaces the rear sight. Any ideas on manufacturers or suppliers?

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
gettin close to season, Maryland, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 09:21:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13)

First it was Robins Egg Blue Pumps,
Now Scottish Highlander Great Kilts!

Well peteR what have you to say on this Brash Year 2000 noveau seasonal Sniper apparal?

Versace Sniper Veils?

Gucci Drag Bags?

Armani Ghille Suits?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw!

Sheepskin lined Great coats look good for 2000 and the end of the world!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 10:10:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.208)

SEAN;On a site where Kilts and blue pumps are fashion and AR 15's with TANK barrels are featured I see nothing wrong with jumping frogs!
QuickBow
Believe it or not I have tried the BSA red dot sights. Parallex seems to be a problem if your not right in the center of the sight. (many other do too except for the Aim POINT) I have one of the larger field ones. I think that the smaller one just might not have the same problem. IT will probably be OK on the MAK 90 be cause unless you drill and tap that mount your zero will wander more than the BSA sight will due to the small amount of Parallax shift it has. I have even used it on a shot gun (wing shooting) that was hoot! Otherwise they are OK and apparently mechanicaly strong because they survived 200 rounds at least of 12 ga on a 870 shotgun.>
Haven't tried that particular mount though! Can't help you there.

Black Knight; they are expensive because they can get it! (mainly expensive due to exchange rates and taxes freight and such as in the SVD) Not because they are accurate. They will outshoot a MAK-90 or conventional M1 or M-14 type and are reliable as hell. But they don't compare to a good bolt rifle and probably weren't meant too. They are OK out to 400 yards unless it's surgical Sniping you want to use them for. Opinons vary here!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 12:29:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Quickbow if you have to go cheap at least go with the Simmons or Bushnell. I have had great Luck with both (only there scopes never tried there red dots). Shotgun news has plenty of Suppliers for any accessories for anything. Also I think Natchez Shooters Supplies has what your looking for there number is (423-899-0499).

Oh yea and on the Clear and Present Danger thing. Besides Patriot games the first movie in that series was Hunt For Red October.

On Ruger77s. Know alot of people that hunt with them and have great luck. Seem to be a good gun. Have a friend that claims with his 7mm he can shoot a touching group at 300 yrds,,that remains to be seen but is what he claims.

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 13:58:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.186.250)

What company makes the best ghillie suits?
Black Knight <trosmena@skyinet.net>
- Friday, September 17, 1999 at 14:09:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 202.78.65.43)
Oh, man. Look at all the kilts flying 'round. I own 2, MacLeod, horse blanket & subdued.

Ordered a # of Devcon Ti putty & bedded a set of scope mounts with it. I am convinced the only reason it's not more common is its cost. The cheapest I found was $50. (General Tool & Supply, here in Portland. If they are online, try lycos.com) This stuff sets up hard as..., well, hard. I used some release agent I had left over from a Brownell's kit. Pound for pound, it's not a whole hell of a lot more expensive than B'nell's Steelbed stuff. This Ti putty seems a lot tougher, not so crumbly. I know the Chandler boys use a skim coat of Marine-tex over the stuff when bedding. I am a believer and will try this on my next rifle, or rebed one if I get bored enough.

Leslie, you kill me. What tartan? Got that deburring tool and a couple other little items. I'll post them this weekend.

Quickbow, where are you at? Please e-mail me again. Your advice on the mounts worked great. Thanks.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Ore, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 17:19:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.85)

If you want to find Kroil in your town, try a printing shop or your newspaper's press room. I bet they have it lying around. Up to you to get it out. Alternately, try Russ Haydon's store. shooter-supply.com
It does seem to work as a cleaner. A bit nasty for a lube. Smelly and all. None of that charm like Hoppe's.

Jeez, when did all the beastiality fans show up? Okay, one more story. This guy I was in basic with was telling us all about him and his brother having sex with animals. I noticed that he always used the gender specific term. (sow, ewe, heifer, etc...) When I mentioned this, he replied, " Whaddaya mean? Ya think we're faggots? "
Man, that killed me. I still tell that one and have asses laughed off over that, 15 years later. I'm pretty sure it's no big deal if it's not the same species. This guy was pissed about it, though. It's the only reason I remember his name.

Okay,enough. We're giving Paskz way too much crap to use against us.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Ore., USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 17:43:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.85)

Just thought I would weigh in some on this vest vs. web gear debate.
I have to agree that the vests are less comfortable for me, they are definately hotter, and I dislike laying on magazines (might not be a problem for you bolt guys) or other stuff. My preference is to wear the pistol belt with suspenders. On suspenders, I prefer the H type to the Y type, but had to wait until U.S.Cav put out theirs before I found a good one. The older (Vietnam) type carried my belt too high for my comfort. The way I have mine set up is: standard pistol belt with H type suspenders hooked to front, to 3 day pack (butt pack) in the back. Got the pistol in a full flap holster on the right (toward the rear) along with a double 20 rounder mag pouch for the M1A. On the left, almost the same: a double mag pouch for the pistol toward the rear and a double mag pouch for the M1A in front of that. Compass case and knife on the suspender (left side). I know you guys are probably wondering about water. I keep the 2L canteens (2) on the pack. In this part of the country, things get dry in a hurry, and the 4 liters will last a couple of days at the outside.
The reason I like it this way is because if I need ammo, it's always right there, as well as my last ditch defense. Anything else can stay on the pack because it isn't essential right then. Also this leaves the front of the web gear clean and clear, nice for prone. Didn't ever understand why people wanted to lay on mags in the first place.
Anyway, that's just what I like, although a well thought out vest could probably duplicate this or even improve it. Once I find that vest, I will let you know, but until then, gotta be web gear for me!
Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City, Utah, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 17:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)
To all,

For those of you who offered your help on my recent barrel fouling problem I thank you. I just spent the better part of the day at the range (sure beats the office) and found where my rifle is fouling. I sorta over looked the obvious. I shot my cold bore shot and it was right where it always hits (dead on). For what ever reason, I looked down inside the end of the barrel. Yep, the first inch inside the lands was covered in copper. I took a bore mop soaked in Barnes copper fouling remover and pushed it through the end of the barrel and let it sit about 5 minutes and what little bit of copper that was left cleaned up in no time. No other fouling was found in the barrel, just the last inch. .I then shot a 20 round group and found the copper fouling was the same after 20 rounds as it was with one round. I at least now know where it is fouling. Any guidance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated on how to correct or alleviate this.

As usual, many thanks for all your help

Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 18:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.189.65)


Stocks: Interesting comments to the mentioned article. I tend to agree with most of you that stock choice is a personal preference.
I have used all kinds of "canoe paddles" on target rifles and like them for their intended purpose, being especially fond of a McMillan McHale on a heavy rifle. The target style stocks made by several companies right now are nothing new. Many competitive shooters and some hunters used them already 20-30 years ago in northern Europe.
It is interesting to note, though, that some of the most successful snipers of all time used nothing more than accurate service rifles.
But they were all HUNTERS.

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
BC, Canada - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 19:41:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.27.219.240)

Hey guys, you know where I can get a leather cheek piece to go on my Springfield M1A? I found the ones for the Garand (M1C or M1D), but I was told that they lift your head and move it to the left, whereas the ones designed for the M-14 are just supposed to lift my head without the side to side offset. Any source would be appreciated!
Or if you've used the one for the Garand and it works, that info would also be appreciated.
Bravo <seasley@apfc.com>
Cedar City , Utah, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 21:39:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.165)
To Leslie Re: KIlts

".. don't think it'd be a good idea to shoot prone on windy days,
though... !!!!! "

What better way can there be to check for a TAILWIND?

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA When wearing pants just make sure that the crack is exposed! - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 21:49:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

A friend of mine has a rifle he is looking to sell and I know nothing about it. It is a Winchester M70 Laradoe(?) in 7mm STW. What appeals to me is that it is bedded in a new McMillan camo A2 tactical stock with adj. aluminum buttspacer and adj cheekpiece. The stock alone is worth several hundred and it feels great to me. I have wanted one for a while because of the prone and bench shooting I do. I am not familiar with the cartridge and its pros and cons. I read it is supposed to be very flat shooting with almost no recoil. Is it inherently accurate in a good barrel? what about barrel life? It seems to have a lot of powder in a small bore. is it as bad as say a .220 Swift? Can it be loaded down a few hundred FPS for increased bbl life and still shoot sub-mos?

Also, I haven't seen a Jewell or shilen trigger for a Winchester, are they available?

THis would be my first Winchester M70, and while I am pretty familiar with making remingtons shoot, I am skeptical about building a rifle on this platform. In case the factory barrel doesn't shoot worth a damn are there other custom barrels for this action( I would hope so). Thanks

Larry <ldup@voicenet.com>
PA, USA - Friday, September 17, 1999 at 23:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.85.200)

I'm pissed. Had to stay at the local AO to cover State Hazmat. First 36 person team team of strictly medical personnel went out Thursday. Getting another Strike Team up to go out Monday and maybe just maybe will get to go ride them thar choppers. Many people stranded and hospital personnel having to be choppered in and out in several locations. Pentagon sent a supper dupper radar plane to handle rescue air traffic.

SORT team is on permanent standby until end of October. First team out for entire east coast. Carlos now looking real bad. Twix her and himacanes, work, daughter in college and everything else, damn! Have had no time to shoot, no time to build gillie.

Gert is on Floyd's ass. Don't place your bets yet!

Catastrophic, 1000 year flooding in eastern NC. Took daughter 9.5 hours to get home from UCU for a usually 4 hour drive. All roads east of 95 in NC are impassable.

RBowcher, are you flooded out?

Will check in before I leave, if I leave.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 00:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.189.65)

Larry...
The Winchester M70 Laredo is a design called a "Bean Field" rifle. They are designed to hunt deer across the West Texas Soy Bean fields, where shoots are 500-600 yards.
The 7mm STW (Shooting Times Westerner) is a cartridge based on the 8mm Remington Mag... which is a hell of a lot bigger than the 7mm Rem Mag, or the 300 Win Mag.

As to the "almost no recoil"... HA... this puppy will get your attention when it goes off... it is stiff. I would sugest you go to the gunshop, and hold one next to a 7mm Rem mag, or a 300 Win mag to get an idea of whats inside.

Barrel life will be very short... 800 to 1500 rounds. This is a long range hunting round, and barrel life in not a consideration.

It can be loaded down a bit, but barrel life is going to be short, and very large cartridges don't respond well to very light charges... accuracy is crappy, no matter what you do.

"Is it as bad as say a .220 Swift?"
Much Worse!!

Jewel makes a trigger for the M70... it's $185 from Bruno's.

"This would be my first Winchester M70, and while I am pretty familiar with making remingtons shoot, I am skeptical about building a rifle on this platform. In case the factory barrel doesn't shoot worth a damn are there other custom barrels for this action (I would hope so)"

Every good barrel maker makes match, and benchrest grade barrels for the M70 action... no problem.

When the NRA tested the M70 Laredo against the Rem Sendero, and other "Bean field" rifles, the Winchester came in tops in grouping... under a minute of angle at 500 yards.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 01:06:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.71)

Okay "Gentlemen".
I need some expert advice...I have a Leupold VARI-X III 6.5x20 EFR A.O. and a Mo's bridge mount, (a one piece Picatinny/Weaver type base to get the elevation for 1000 yards). I need to know what type/height ring to use to allow clearance to slide the scope on and off to use the aperature sights. Prefer quick release type, money is a concern, but I still may get off the dead presidents if the differences make it worth it. I am thinking Leupold QRW or mark 4, Badger if I can get info on them, have even thought about making my own (too much time & effort, I'd rather pay for something done on a CNC). Any help appreciated.
Thanks
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
western, pennsylvania, USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 03:49:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.232)
Here is a quote from the great Roman stratagist, Vegetius. I thought you might all enjoy, I know it arouses my soul.
"All arts and trades whatever are brought to perfection by continual practice. How much more should this maxim, true in inconsiderable matters, be observed in affairs or importance! And how much superior to all others is the art of war, by wich our liberties are preserved, our dignities perpetuated and the Provinces and the whole empire itself exist."

Yol Bolson
Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 04:01:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.186.207)

I’m looking for a heavy-barreled .308. For reasons of familiarity, if nothing else, the varmint-contoured 700 with a H-S stock was my first choice. Search as I may, the only one I found has a fluted barrel that, for some reason, the factory ported. Too tricky for my tastes.

No problem. High-Power shooters are having good results with the Winchester M70/HBV ( #535-013220). Despite the fact that it’s a bit of a load to haul around, people I have reason to defer to (distinguished experts and such) say its a much better value. (Don’t flame me, I love my Remingtons as much as you love your’s.)

Now, even at the big dealers back east, I can’t find a Winchester. GunsAmerica is no help.

Is anyone else having trouble finding a simple varmint-style .308 from one of the big two makers?

And, Larry. Go to your local ammo seller and ask to look at a box of 7mm Rem rounds and a box of 7mmSTW. Pull a round of each out and compare them. Firing, oh, 30 rounds of 7 mag in one sitting screws up my follow-through for weeks. I start to 'fuzz-out' rather than seeing the cross-hairs through the shot and letting the shot fall dead. I haven't fired the STW, but I have looked in awe at the cartridge. No thanks. Too short of a recoil impulse. It loosens my fillings just looking at it.

CDC

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 05:01:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.43)

CDC - looking for stuff:

Try looking at:

http://www.shotgunnews.com - you can find some stuff there
http://www.gunauction.net - active auctions of stuff... so-so
http://www.gearout.com - alot better - actually have selective searches. These are actual classified ad's. Lot's of winchesters and remingtons last time I looked.

Good Luck,

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 12:18:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

All - flip open scope covers.

Would like to confirm sizes with someone else out there. My scope is a Leuopold 4.5 x 14 x 50 LR tactical. The objective lens measures 2.3" - the eyepiece measures 1.56". According to the Butler Creek website - this means a #11 for the eyepiece and a #43 for the objective. Could any of youn'z out there confirm/adjust my findings.

Thanks in advance,

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 18, 1999 at 18:58:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Remington Trigger Part

I had a Remington 40XR single shot rimfire target gun toen down for several month in antisipation of parkerixing it (its reciever was badly pitted when I recieved it) but the chemicals have yet to show up from http://www.shootersolutions.com. Its starting to look like a real screwed up organisation. Next step: a letter to Visa, I suppose.

Aaaanyway, in the interim the detent ball that loads the saftey lever has take a bad bounce someplace. Anybody know of a sourse or, barring that, anybody happen to know the diameter of the ball so I can get a generic one?

Thnaks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in the nearly Floyd-free state of, SC, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 03:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.237)

Ken,

We have the same scope (Leupold 4.5-14x50 LR MilDot Tactical). Your numbers for the Butler Creek scope caps match mine but a little caveat. If you have the sun shade on your scope, it has a large OD than the optics bell does. My dealer didn't have the right size in stock so I went one over a lined it with a piece of electronics foam tape (very thin stuff and non-adhesive). Worked just fine.

I think this scope is underrated, especially for long range work. All someone need do is check the huge range of adjustment for both vertical and horizontal planes.... 80" @ 100 yards or 800" @ 1000 yds. Great stuff!

-=[Bob]=-
Bob (SD) <bald1@usa.net>
USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 03:57:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.207.119)

Anyone here ever order from www.gibrass.com??
I've just placed an order for a thousand once-fired 7.62 and was wondering what I'll be receiving. Hopefully not all of it has been shot through an M1A...
I guess I'll know for sure in a couple of days huh?
Not a bad price, and I'll let ya'll know what I get!!

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 07:30:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.33)

Well, I changed some pages last night and am actually surprised not to see any comments about it here yet - you guys are normally very quick to pick up these small details.

It is my great pleasure to announce that Sniper Country has officially got another member. Pete Reiff, also known as peteR, is now a member of the team, and I am sure all of you will agree that he has shown the knowledge, and willingness to share, to make an even greater contribution to the site than he has done so up till now as a visitor.

Garry, Scott and myself welcome him - now I have somebody new to pass all the "difficult" questions to :-)

Welcome Dude, hope you enjoy it.

Marius
Webmaster

PS The Duty Roster and Emporium names will also be changed shortly when I archive, but first I've got a dirty little bottom to clean.

Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 09:59:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.15.184.11)

Good lord Marius, what did you do? Offer PeteR a whole folk of them sheepies?

No wonder he's been on line so much here lately!
bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, September 19, 1999 at 14:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.72)

i'm a newbie so forgive me. this question is probably old as dirt, but i have yet to find any info on it. moly-coated bullets or not coated? what is the general consensus on using them. those Winchester Supreme 168gr ballistic tips look mighty good. i can get a hell of a deal on them too. but they are moly-coated, so i need the professional opinion first. these are being shot through a n