September 1999

You didn't butt in, and your point is well taken. I read that General Giap (NVA) once said "The only rule in war is, you must win." He was right.
Preach that E&E any time you like.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 01:23:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

Well while Mike was off getting his vacation from which he needs a vacation, he left me with a webpage to build. Upon his return this afternoon we made a couple of quick changes and he has asked me to let you all know about his latest product.

I am proud to announce that Tactical Intervention Specialists is now producing the MRRB - The Mildew Resistant Rifle Bag. This product takes the place of a field-expedient sand sock and unlike the sock you wont get Athlete's Foot on your cheek from it.

The MRRB is made with the attention to detail and ruggedness that those of you who bought one of Mike's Quick Cuff Slings have come to know.

Drop by and check it out!
JT - Webmaster For Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Oakland, California, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 02:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

OK, I'm nit-picking here and maybe I need an education on this, but when it comes to the commercial semi-auto versions of the M14 the ones I know about are the M1A, M1A-A1 and M21. Exactly what is this M1A1 I keep seeing mentioned?

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 02:47:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.28.159)

I got motivated to do a bedding job on a rifle last weekend. The rifle involved in this project is a Rrrrruuuger 10/22 - but wait.... it's not a regular old Rrrrruuuger 10/22 - it's got a Clark match barrel and a Volquartsen fiberglas stock! Still there??? OK - I prepped everything and got ready to mix up the Brownell's GLASBED stuff.... what the hell is this.... the hardener is already hard!! I had 3 GLASBED kits on hand and all of them were useless because the hardener was already hardended (or at least partially hard!). So, I'm down in my basement ready to do the bedding thing and all I've got on hand to do the job is some J-B Weld. I figure what the hell - if it doesn't come out good I can always get out some sandpaper and get the crap out of there - so I bedded the thing with the J-B Weld. The deed is done and I must say the job sure as hell looks and feels good - but I'm wondering if this J-B Weld bedding job will hold up for any length of time.

So.... have any of you tried J-B Weld as a bedding compound and what were the results of using it? I probably wouldn't have gone out on a limb and tried it on a harder-hitting caliber, like say a .308, but I'm hoping it will be suitable for a .22LR. What's the verdict???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 05:05:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.46)

Funny you should mention J-B weld, I just picked up another blister packet of it last night. For something as "feeble" recoiling as a .22 rimfire just about anything high grade epoxy composite should work O.K. I take it the action still came off the stock and isn't a "glue in"?

Jim White,

Just outta curiousity what velocity does 40.0 gr. of Varget give with the 175 MK's?

Serri,

Right on dude, Who was it that said "Winning is EVERYTHING" - Atilla the Hun? ;-)

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 12:35:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.72)

About the Sniper Drag-Bag thing. If the Sniper is real good at FieldCraft, and Stalking and is taking full advantage of his Longrange Shooting skills, I think his chances of survival are much better than those on the wrong end of his rifle. They won't be able to find him, much less, shoot him. I mean after all, he is concealed at long range, and their leadership is now minus one...or more! And our Sniper has a Spotter, who prob has an M16/M203. My money is on the Sniper Team.

Gotta Run Guys,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 13:30:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.52)

Sea Food dinner for Scott if your ever in the hood.

MJ
MJ <montereyjack@kmenterprises.com>
Monterey, Kalif., USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 17:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.236.189.200)

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 17:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

As I read in an early contribution, ergonomics is everything, especially if you're not the "Mr. Average" that all manufacturers build rifles for. In my case it's the length of my neck - I cannot shoot a rifle with a straight comb. I always buy a stock with the correct drop at heel and comb and modify the rest accordingly. I'm extremely fussy about pistol grips - they need to be nearly vertical, have no curve to bunch up your fingers and MUST have a palm swell (got to be comfortable if you're gonna sit behind it from dawn till dusk)

I buy fibreglass stocks unfinished - no paint etc. I put a couple of small self-tapping screws in the pistol grip and mould a new shape with plumbers' epoxy (it works like play dough when you activate the two components). I then spray the stock with automotive stone-chip paint (usually black but you can be pretty creative) and two coats of matt clear laquer. I have done this with EVERY long-range rifle I own and it works. This finish is as hard as any manufacturers' - I defy anyone to break the epoxy grip. Try it with an old stock sometime, you will be converted.

TooLong
TooLong <huzier@caribsurf.com>
- Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 18:30:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.50.93.2)

Me thinks it would be a good idea to carry all your gear in one instead of a ruck sack which I really dislike. (still haven't figgered out how you can use a rucksack on a stalk, would look like a big humpty back camel coming through the bushes). If you have a spotter with you and you get spyed on he could keep the bad guys off until you could get the bag up to you or you could get your side arm out.

But I also think that you may want to pull your weapon out prior to getting in spook range so that if you have to take a longer shot than you had planned it would be ready to shoot.

Plus it really looks sexy!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 21:05:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.47)

Keep the Howa,and be happy, my understanding is that the bottom profile is like the Win M-70(flat) and the top(where you screw the scope mounts on to)is round and matches the contour of the Rem 700.
So all mounts should be able to mount on your Howa,that are made for Rem 700's,you would have to check.Now I am going to piss off some Rem 700 owner's,so if think the pinicle of action design and manufactor is the Rem 700,just skip this post.The Howa has a flat bottom and usually bed's easer and better,also the Howa has a extractor that is better than the Rem type and is replacable,and last but not least the whole action is made straighter,truer and to more precise tolerance's.
The last thing I would do is to trade it on a Rem of any sought.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 22:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.228)

I pull the drag bag on a piece of nylon web strap. The front of the bag is up to where it is a little above my ankles, so I can "Steer" it with my feet. Must admit I have never tried a 600yd stalk/crawl with it. Hell, 50 yds is a long crawl to me! Bag is attached to a snap link on my belt, via a nylon strap. The bag is still needs some improvements for carrying equipment, and attachment of garnish. It seems that if someone can see me pull the bag up to get the rifle, then I picked a bad final firing point, or used poor camo/field skills. Or maybe I just ran out of luck. Whatever, it is good to talk about these kinds situations though.

Later,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 22:43:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

Who ever I offended, I was just giving my opinion. You can do what ever you want. As to stalking I have never had a student do well in my AO dragging or carring one of the big bags. I am sure it has its place but I prefer to have something more versatile. If your in tall grass, jungle or whatever why would you want your rifle tied up where you can't get it if you had a choice?

If any of you think you are such great stalkers that you will never be seen or heard, by all means use the biggest darn bag you can find and haul a piano in it for all I care. I will stick with a small ruck(shooting support) and a smaller protective cover for the rifle. I can drag it, pull it, carry it, sling it and if the poop hit the fan shoot from it.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tacticali@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, September 01, 1999 at 23:35:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.26)

All I want to know is, where did you come up with a Howa police gun? Is this a currently cataloged (or uncataloged) model? I remember seeing some Smith and Wesson-Howa wooden-stocked police guns years ago.

Before my ordeal with Remington over my 700PSS "outrage" gun, my original plan was to obtain a Howa heavy barreled action, McMillan stock and build the sucka' from the ground up, but alas Interarms only seems to bring them in in fits and spurts and none were in the conventional sporting goods supply system. I went with the Remington 'cause I *assumed* that Remington was the standard-setter, the best bang-for-the-buck, the One True Turnkey Solution. Wrong-o. Refer to the archives to see just how awry things went before I finaly fixed the damn thing myself.

There was an artical in TS magazine some issues back that detailed how a 'smith built up a Howa much as I intended to and that confirmed the high opinion of Howa bolt guns I have held for many years. They may not exactly be big innovators or original thinkers in terms of action design, but they have displayed good taste in deciding what features to rip off from others. The actions are true and require little to no tweaking and the OEM barels are actualy of rather good quality. The trigger is servicable and fully adjustable. The extractor is strait outa' Finland: why pay somebody to add a Sako extractor to your Reminigton bolt when Howa already puts it there for you? The bolt is a no-tools takedown design, a very nice thing for guns that live hard lives in the real world.

Built a sporter for a guy one time at the shop I was working at. He wanted an accurate, powerful, high-quality rifle and he wanted it cheap. Okay. I order in a Howa barreld action in .338 for all of about $225 at the time and a &50 Bell and Carlson stock. I unceremoniously slapped it together using steel-filled Acra-Glas jell, and I had a first class 1 MOA rifle with factory ammo. Add a Vari-X II and Redfield mounts and, well, what else is there to want in a hunting rifle? He was most happy, and I was most impressed with how simple the whole job had been.

-Tom
Now in the market for a Howa long action to build a .30-06.

PS: Morris: MY shooting jacket is a Creedmore product that they make out of a heavy green canvas, which does a fine job of splitting the difference between a full heavy jacket and the old USMC-pattern cloth jackets. I think they sell for about $90-100.
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Cheery Colatown, in hurricane-resistant SC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 00:00:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Semper Fi!
Jim
James <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 00:15:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.196.191.11)

Terry

PS the 1000 yard range in Saskatchewan, Canada with the esker was completed over the summer. There will be a three day shoot second weekend of September, not that I'll be able to attend.
Terry Warner <terry.warner@sympatico.ca>
Canada - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 02:08:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.172.92.85)

So any help would be appreciated........BigGunn.............
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn.Country, Pa., USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 02:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

To Scott(T.O.O)
Thanks to Steve and Ron N. for corresponding with me. Scott, you need to read the Nov. - Dec. 1978 Rifle magazine (Issue 60). It has a great article on building up the 788. I'm working on a practical rifle starting with a 788 carbine in 7mm-08. The only thing I have to solve is the magazine issue. The modifications suggested by D.L. Rowe in the Rifle article require a lengthening of the magazine support which means that once you start using 5 round mags (also explained well in the article) you can't use the factory three rounders. I'm working on a change to Rowe's design that will allow you to go back and forth. I'll keep you posted.
John
John <murray19@prodigy.net>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 02:38:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.0.133)

I see some recent posts about high power shooting. I'm getting back into this a bit after dabbling in it 15 years ago (to get my M1). The chum who is helping me out is a pretty regular winner at local matches and has shot Perry several times. I was pretty impressed to see him shoot MOA or nearly so at 200 yds with iron sights. Dang, what if he had a scope!?
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 03:21:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.46)

Aren't drag bags these days a little overkill? I mean drag bags like the Eagle and Blackhawk are just massive and have a zillion pockets to hold everything but the kitchen sink. Wouldn't you be better off to just buy a basic soft case that fits your rifles profile as closely as possible and then just camo it up and have a neater and more managable case?

TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 04:31:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.54)

Howas,
Are pretty fair rifles for the money they have some nice features but are havier than hell when you buy one complete. It feels like the stocks are made out of concrete!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 11:46:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

non-pocketed Drag bags are featured under the "In Review" section of Sniper Country. Might bear looking at for those who think all of them look like a stretched Alice pack.

Funny you should mention Hornady TAP, mine had bullet weights of within 2/10 grain and powder was REAL CLOSE. What lot # do you have?

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 11:48:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.156)

Chapter VI:
Of New Dominions Which Have Been
Acquired by One's Own Arms and Ability

"Let no one marvel if in speaking of new dominions both as to prince and state, I bring forward very exalted instances, for men walk almost always in the path trodden by others, proceeding in their actions by imitation. Not being always able to follow others exactly nor attain to the excellence of those he imitates, a prudent man should always follow in the path trodden by great men and imitate those who are most excellent, so that if he does not attain to their greatness, at any rate he win get some tinge of it. He will do as prudent archers, who when the place they wish to hit is too far off, knowing how far their bow will carry, aim at a spot much higher than the one they wish to hit, not in order to reach this height with their arrow, but by help of this high aim to hit the spot they wish to."

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 14:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.58)

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 14:53:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Hey, you didn't offend me a bit. Your opinions are certainly appreciated. Commercial Drag Bags are big, and bulky. I think smaller and lighter drag bags are the way to go in the field. Drag bags have their place in the bag of tricks, it is there if you need it. Sounds to me like you developed a bag/cover that suits your A.O.
Great Stalker? Me? I wish!! I try different things to see what works, and what doesn't. It's been interesting...and frustrating too.

Best Regards,

Bill
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:07:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192)

HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, CA, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:37:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

Anyhow. This high class call girl is offering lessions to women "in the trick of the trade" Most of the women who take the classes ate happly married middle calss women with office jobs.

I understand that the husbands of the women have no objections to the classes - indeed -I have been told that the are just sooo happy to help with the home work...

My point is that the morality and danger of a skill or a tool is dependent stri ctly on the use a person chooses to make of it.

That is why I hope that you might add to your opening page that people under 18 are allowed in with adult supervision.

Take care
Jiliyan
jiliyan milne <jiliyan@hotmail.com>
tortonto, ont, canada - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:43:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.164.161.11)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 16:51:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Camo for Calif. I like RealTree Brown for the grass and low hill area. Urban I like gray

Time to make some slings for the Carlos Match.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif`, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 18:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.48)

Minor question.....
Did Carlos use a gillie suit?????????????????
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 19:54:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.186)

**************

Sadly, no. A fair bit too short, I'm afraid. Bought one for $12 with the very same idea in mind. It could perhaps be used as raw materials for such a bag but not as-is.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Dowright tropical Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 21:29:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

McMIllan told me a few months ago that they make the A2 (I think) for the Howa. Sounds like a plan to me. :)

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Efficiently run if slightly bland Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 21:38:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

I am getting ready to make my first purchase of a quality scope (quality for me at least). The rifle I will be putting it on is a Springfield M1A Enhanced which is not a tack-driving precision rifle by any means but I still want as much quality in the optics as I can afford. I bought a Springfield 3rd Generation mount before I knew any better so that will limit the accuracy in itself. I don't think I need a long range scope since I don't ever plan on shooting more than 300 - 500 yards and probably not even that.

I have been looking at the Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 X 40mm but noticed the Burris Black Diamond 3-12 X 50mm which is about $50.00 more.

I know there are lots of Leupold faithful out there, how about Burris defenders? What kind of optical quality, durability can i expect from the Burris.

Any other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated as well.
JamesB <jbarrier@juno.com>
WA, USA - Thursday, September 02, 1999 at 23:06:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.82.215.2)

As for the M-60...it isn't a M-24 and you have to modify the 1950 case to fit which any good shoe repair shop could do. The 26" barrel is just a bit longer and if you have a recoil pad added to the stock makes it just a bit longer yet. Inside the 1950 case is a leather piece which can be cut to allow another 3/4" and as stated earlier. modifying the case helps. What I did was cut the case and add a zipper where the barrel normally goes. Works for me !! Brigade Quartermaster was selling the 1950, I forget the price.

I am going to be "out of the loop" till 10 Sept, Ya'll take care, shoot straight and often !!!
Later, OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Alabama, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 00:50:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.130.38)

Thanks.
John Haus <JWH446@aol.com>
Walnut, CA, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 02:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.173)

I have found that Hornady die sets have a superior locking ring method. You'll find that they don't have set screws which will destroy the threads on the die body. This allows you to readjust things in the future without fighting crushed threads.

DP
Dale Pennington <pennstar@hotmail.com>
Round Lake, IL, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 02:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.185.24.106)

Have you been to SMTC yet? Are you going to SMTC for the Carlos Hathcock II Memorial Match? I would like to, but will prob have to work.
Yep, I am starting to think the shooting is the "Easy" part, and Stalking is the hard part. Oh yeah, it would be a lot more fun if I were 20yrs old.

Well, gotta go load some more ammo.

Later,

Bill
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 03:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.36)

I have no reports on the penetration of the load you are using, and you did not specify whether it was match grade ammo, Federal Premium, or what. Most states that allow hi powered rifle hunting, require only that a round/rifel meet a minimum muzzle velocity/energy, and that you use hollow points or soft tips. depending on where you aim, you could most certainly down large game with that load. If you are not worried about trophy (a practice many frown on anyway, but whatever floats your boat) you could quite easily take a head shot,and save the meat. So long as you are confident in your rifle's acuracy, and your ability, that would work fine. Some people I know from one department, go for a neck shot on deer, using the same rig and load they are duty slotted with, and have great success. I believe the aimpoint is midway or just a hair more up, right about where you cut off at when butchering, go for the mass of muscle there. That spot has a lot of arteries, nerves, and none of the deer they have taken have run more than 10 to 15 feet. As far as using a different comparable load, I will let some of teh ballistics gurus here debate that point. Another idea is get several comercial hunting rounds in the same *range* of weight, some lighter, some heavier, some the same, go to the range and see where they group as compared to your POA.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
unworthy of mention, Maryland, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 11:32:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Chapter XIV:
The Duties of a Prince
with Regard to the Militia

A prince should therefore have no other aim or thought, nor take up any other thing for his study, but war and its organization and discipline, for that is the only art that is necessary to one who commands, and it is of such virtue that it not only maintains those who are born princes, but often enables men of private fortune to attain to that rank. And one sees, on the other hand, that when princes think more of luxury than of arms, they lose their state. The chief cause of the loss of states, is the contempt of this art and the way to acquire them is to be well versed in the same.
Francesco Sforza, through being well armed, became, from private status, Duke of Milan, his sons, through wishing to avoid the fatigue and hardships of war, from dukes became private persons.

For among other evils caused by being disarmed, it renders you contemptible; which is one of those disgraceful things which a prince must guard against, as will be explained later. Because there is no comparison whatever between an armed and a disarmed man; it is not reasonable to suppose that one who is armed will obey willingly one who is unarmed; or that any unarmed man will remain safe among armed servants. For one being disdainful and the other suspicious, it is not possible for them to act well together. And therefore a prince who is ignorant of military matters, besides the other misfortunes already mentioned, cannot be esteemed by his soldiers, nor have confidence in them.

Chao!

oops heres the link for those who wish intellectual substance:
http://www.mattbrown.net/machiavelli/
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 11:36:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.66)

Appreciate the help.
Darren <xm852@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 12:04:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.40)

How DID Carlos make it across that field undetected?

"Prince" Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 12:10:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.43)

When you run across coated nylon products that stink badly, this is uslaul a sign that the urethane coating on the nylon has chemicaly failed. Older (pre mid '70s) commercial backbacking gear does this as well. Later formulations are more stable.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Outrageously beautiful this morning Colatown, in sunny SC, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 13:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.174.100)

I am looking for training and equipment to further my abilities in
this field. I look forward to further communications.
gary l fowler <tucowgrl@cyberhighway.net>
rupert, idaho, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 14:11:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.161.38.195)

Gotta love that Machiavelli! Thanks for the snippets.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 15:06:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.31.4.47)

G Suits, most people make burlap wooly boogers. 60 to 70 percent of the suit is natural camo with the burlap used to break up the outline. The G-Suit is designed to blend you with the terrain, not hide you NOR desguise you. Burlap looks like burlap, NOT grass, bushes, trees, nor PDs :). A head veil will get alot of people through and a body net will do the rest. The full sun stroke suit as shown in movies and TV is not necessary. If you must, then be carful and ventilate the suit and watch how much burlap and junk you put on it. Leave off the canvas front and use elbow and knee pads for crawling. If you crawled that far, then you need to learn route selection.

One last thing, for those of you who asked about the 1950 weapons cntainer, we use them every class for ---- jumping the M24s out of the airplane while in fright and then leaveing them on the DZ for turn in by the DZ party. They fit with the adjustable buttplate completely closed. That is the M24, not most civilian rifles.

Oh well, have fun guys and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 22:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.47)

Sierra makes a 165 gr Game King that others on this discussion group firmly recommended to me when I asked a question similar to yours. If you have access to reloading equipment, why not make up some Mexican Match? Pull the 168 gr bullets from whatever ammo you've got, inspect the necks for a good chamfer (or give the cases a quick spin), then reseat with 165 gr Game Kings to the same overall length. A trip to the range will confirm your zero and grouping.

Terry
Terry Warner <terry.warner@sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, September 03, 1999 at 23:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.172.163.56)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 02:52:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.155)

Brownell's carries a "CQB Scope Mount" by Mark Brown. Catalog # 133-101-015. Page 279 of Catalog 51. Price is $85.

It requires machining of the upper receiver (removal of the carrying handle just forward of the rear sight) for installation.

It places an Aimpoint Comp or a Tasco PDP-4 in the proper position so that the dot is right wear it needs to be, on top of the front sight.

If you don't want to do that, C-More Systems makes a C-more sight that mounts forward of the Carrying Handle and puts the dot there also.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 08:17:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.57)

Asnwer a couple of questions which people had. Bruce. you mentioned your AR using a 75 grainer to reach out up to 400 yards. BUt have you tried to extend that range out to 600 to 900. HIts at that range are then purely speculative. Ill take a 168 grainer in a 308 over a 223 any day for the long shots. Learned that lesson all too quickly several weeks ago.

Gary Fowler, Want to extend your learning for your police sniper. Take a couple course from Storm Mountain Training Center. At www.stormmoutain.com,. They have all the courses your little heart desires.

Last final question about the Accuracy International AICS. That chassis systems seems pretty good, but does anyone have any real pratical experience with it and does anyone here feel that the price is justified. I was thinking about buying one to put another tac rifle together, but am having trouble trying to justify spending the bucks for that stock. But if you feel it si worth the$$$$ then maybe Ill consider it even more.

Thanks everyone.

al o.

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Back home here in my Wife's Loving arms in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 13:33:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.76)

Heres the reply received from a Hornady Technical rep. on the A-Max'es for hunting applications:

"They were designed as a target bullet, they might expand too rapidly."

I'll dig deeper........

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 14:27:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.191)

Weren't Weatherby Vanguards Howa actions ? Sounds like a good idea to use one. As it is a Mauser 98/Win. M70 derivative, do any of the soup up parts of that ilk work on Howas ?

Thank you, T50, Steve, and Pythagoras. I have ruined a few pieces of aluminum, and by God, all is well. Hey, you know you can use this nonsense in the horizontal axis, too. Next time I'm at the range, I plan to center the reticle's windage and run it all but 3 minutes from the top. I'll shoot a group, and see if I can't violate a gunsmith's base (Warne) to allow me to mount the scope with as close to mechanical zero as I can. (way too much free time. Using a mill is a beautiful thing. No way could I talk a smith into doing this without paying a fortune.)
Jim <surfbeat@hotmail.com>
PDX, Or., USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 19:06:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.84)

But, in L.E., there is a limit on the ranges likely encountered. The average for the police sniper is somewhere around 80 yards (and no, I did not forget to put in an extra Zero...:-) )

I have been told that the "World Record" among L.E. Snipers is somewhere in the vicinity of 425 yards.

L.E. rifle work is a different animal. The military sniper depends on stealth to get in to his target, and if he can't get close, there may be a 800 yard shot. If a L.E. Sniper gets called out, the bad guy probably knows that the cops are there. He will have 15 cruisers and a SWAT Van parked in his front yard.

And, since the goal of the LE Sniper is to STOP the perp immediately, a body shot won't cut it. Head shots are almost mandatory, so it behooves the shooter to get as close as possible.

For my use, the AR is proving to be quite worthwhile.

(With my luck, the next call-out will require one of those 900 yard shots....KNOCK ON WOOD!)

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 22:14:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.197)

Perhaps you will excuse me for my poor english.

I have heard, that someone accused SVD rifle of being inaccurate. Someone very emotionaly, even as i note, unproffesionaly emotionaly, cry that "dont buy a Dragunov unless you want to be laughed at by your serious sniping buddys". Serious snipers... Or even "buddys". Stop that histeric. I am tolerant about any oppinion of all "buddys". But my honour as a proffesional dictate me to tell some words about that weapon, for unprejudiced audithory.

As you perhaps guessed, I am Russian, and know about this rifle much more than some "buddys", "fellows" and "guys".

I can tell you officialy that: SVD has accuracy about 0,9 MOA. That is proven in practice. That accuracy is measured on standard sniper-grade ammo, so called "Snajperskie". Some anecdotical tales of 3, 4, 5 MOA is nothing more than anecdotical tales. Probably they have measured your shotgun?

The problem, I guess is a lack of quality SVD ammo in US. I don't know what "Norma" is, but if they achieved such 3 MOA on that ammo, either they are paralitics, either "Norma" produces trash. May be both options are right?

I don't recommend, however, to buy SVD. And that's why:
1. No quality, fresh, specially designed ammo for it on US market;
2. SVD is intended for proffessional use only - if you are beginner or intermediate sniper you can encounter some problems.
There is a lot of other rifles in US, so you have many choices.

And last. Remember: underestimation of enemy is a quickest way home. In the "eternity box". We are enemies. So underestimate us, until you meet me some gray morning on the field. Or meet my bullet.

Thanks for attention.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Somewheretown, Russia - Saturday, September 04, 1999 at 23:59:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Bruce - No you don't want to have to make that 900 yard shot in the LE arena! A miss on Perp and hit on innocent would be a career ender! But it is fun to wish isn't it. On the use of the 5.56 for your use, I have tried to get a number of LEAs to go that way due to the flatter trajectory and higher velocity. It allows a much faster follow on shot and lowers the signature of the rifle. This helps in the NEWS agency reports. "Sounded like a gawd dang cannon when that thar cop fired!" Besides, you can tell it is Mattel, it's swell! :)

Al - We shoot them in the course as we do the SVD since it is basically the L96A1, which is what we have. None of us like the feel nor the accuracy we have gotten from the weapon. NOW, that said, ours is one of the first models and they may have changed some things. But it looks the same and I do not like the feel of the weapon. I wouldn't own one, but then Reed Knight bought one at the Shot Show! Go figure!

Ken - Take it you have watched the smoke trail and mid range powder puff too. I have seen some real hummers on paper turn to lead dust half way to the target.

Got to go guys, have fun and hold hard!

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 00:32:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.41)

By all means fill us in on the latest Dragunov lore from the motherland, we try to absorb and welcome all knowledge of sniping here like Bowcher said.

I shot a Chinese Draganov with matchski ammo for a Dope Bag review in The American Rifleman a few years back. But then, you are probably not familiar with the NRA Technical staff evaluations are you?
summation: Neat - expensive - toy, but yes it will probably do the job just fine in "skilled hands" out to 500 Meters. Even on Area 51 prairie dogs! (Still L.M.A.O. - SARGE!)

Give me a scoped Moisen-Nagant any day over one of the extended cab AK's. You have probably also shot them too pretty extensively I'll venture......

Hexa, Do you have anything to add?

FYI An out of the box Remington 700 bolt action 7.62x51mm(the preferred design here in USA) will generally average .600 to .900 MOA in the hands of us sloppy beginning shooters with good factory ammo.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 03:36:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.54)

We in the US are subjected to a lot of conflicting information on the performance of the SVD. One published report came out of Iraq, where several capured SVDs were tested for accuracy and found to be inaccurate and came with log books from the factory that were interpreted as indicating that Soviet accuracy standard were not rigorous. The type of ammunition on hand for the testers to use was not stated, but given the Iraqis generaly poor organization and logistics in that operation, it would not suprise me if they issued them with non-sniper grade ammunition, probably delinked PKM ball ammo. Also, the people who wrote the artical may not have known how to interpret the documentation found with the rifles. This is a common problem with media types here.

However, in a very recent issue of Tactical Shooter magazine, a Russian SVD was tested in detail with the proper Russian sniper ammunition and it proved to be a very accurate (< 1 MOA) rifle, more than accurate enough to fulfill the requirements called for by Russian doctrine and not at all bad by western standards, either. It was certainly accurate enough to keep me worried at any reasonable range. They were especialy impressed with the clarity and light transmission efficiency of the scope.

The "sporter" SVD I fired several weeks ago was owned by an individual who knew nothing about the rifle or its scope who let me fire 10 rounds of some Russian-made 200 grain softpoint hunting loads. It shot poorly with that ammo, but then I know from experience that the hunting ammo that Russian makes for export is usualy not very good. I have some Russian-made military ball ammunition that seems to be very accurate in my M38 Mosin-Nagant carbines. I would like to work with an SVD in detail at some point, as this is a cartrige I am already set up to reload for.

Norma ammunition is made in Sweeden and is nominaly of very good quality, but is not intended for use in SVDs.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 04:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.139)

Its too late for me to crunch all the numbers for you, but .008" reduction in front sight heigth equals a 1 MOA shift in POI, per Kuhnhausen.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 04:25:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.139)

I attempted to put together my first handloads using Varget tonight, but the dropping of the powder proved to be something of a disaster. I have both an elderly Lyman 48 measure and a late-model Bonanza, and both dropped 43.5gr of Varget with a .3-.4 gr. variance from charge to charge. Not good in my book. I ended up weighing and tricking out 50 loads. I had forgotten just how big a pain in the ass that is. Its been a while since I have used extruded powder but it seems to me that I used to could drop IMR 4895 a lot more consistanly than this, and of course the Lyman 48 is a great ball powder measure.

Sooo, now what? do I start shooping for another measure, or buy one of those super-duper automated scale units like an Autoscale (and who sells that thing now, anyway?).

BTW got in my Lapua brass yesterday. That stuff is *sooo* nice to work with... :)

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 04:34:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.139)

in reading the last issue of Minute of Angle you talked about the
Milldot Master. i did not see any place to obtain one.
Could you e-mail where to get one. Thanks

All:

I have enjoyed the site greatly and have found alot of good info.

Does anyone have any info on (night force or light force lighted
reticle scopes) i beleive they are out of Kent Wa.

so long for now, gary
g fowler <tucowgrl@cyberhighway.net>
rupert, id, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 05:45:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.161.38.152)

Bet its your powder measures....... My RCBS (Old Green is twenty five or thirty years old and still works fine) with Varget and lots of other extruded powders over the years(LARGE amounts of H-1000 as of late) and throws charges at (+ or - .01 gr) when set up correctly and cycled the same way. Maybe you could have the powder drum Black-T or Robar coated to resolve the problem.

I still individually weigh each charge and trickle up to the exact amount desired, I can't get into that "have to handload FAST" school. I've seen too much slop ammo, busted guns, and faces! from the "Mr McFeeley" school of loading. Hurry-Hurry-Hurry

When you finish handloading for a SVD or Moisen-Nagant please keep us up to date. The data needs to be published for all those fine old rifles floating around out there. SVD's Too!

I thought the article in August'99 T-S just said a lot of nothing regarding the rifles accuracy capabilities, (Hugos article in the May T-S issue addressed the SVD far better) but maybe I just want to see empirical testing: like 5 five shot groups at 100 and 200 yards with chrono data, and not a couple three shot groups to attempt a feeble validation............

If you're really gonna sell it (The SVD system)to me, prove it, and please don't try the PT Barnum approach of "Theres a Sucker Born Every Minute"

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 12:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.204)

I'm not Sniping at/or Flaming "Colatown Tom" or Paskz (The Russian Dudeski),

I just want to see ACCURATE information posted before somebody gets burned buying hyped crap or worse, wore out hyped crap and spending $$$ on reloading equipment and periperals in an attempt to make a silk purse out of Al's ear [Oooops! :-)], I mean a Sheeps ear.

It all works if it connects with the target, regardless of Nationalism and techological pride right?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG WET CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 13:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.33)

Again i must excuse for my rural english. And I can add to this that I am absolutely unfamiliar with abreviations, used in your country. So to me NRA is perhaps what for you TETZ-30 is. Sorry again, don't argument such way, it's is simply beyond our possibilities to understand is it bad or good, that some NRA, or some TETZ-30, or some prairie dogs.. Sorry again, imagine the fact that not all people must be familiar with US circumstances.

I am very glad, that little information I posted here was accepted, and leaded to normal discussion. So, before that nobody has told about sub-1-MOA SVD. I like clarity - it was strange to hear from a proffesional, may be more proffesional that i am myself, so unprofessional tales about how to make SVD from SKS. Or that SVD is a modification of AK. That is like to say, that all we use is a modification of Chinese Black Powder Canon. Is'n it?

Again, I say, SVD is not the most accurate, or most comfortable, or most - anything you wish.. That is foolish to say so on every model we and you use. I must definitely say - SVD is a top weapon in very special category. I like SVD, but to me that is to know every imperfections of that weapon, too. You also know imperfections of all your rifles, from Remington 700 to PSG-1 and R93 - that is a part of sniper skill.

Now to the modifications and improvements. Of course we make some improvements. The problem, of which i have heard here, has a solution.

About counterstand SVD - Mosin rifle. I use a Mosin rifle modification, called SV-5. It is a long story to tell.. And i will not do that. I like Mosin too, because of excelent accuracy. But SV-5 is not usefull in dinamical battle - that is sniper rifle for "hunting" - a long, positional campaign.

So, again - i do not recommend to buy it in US. Probably you can buy only a old one, second hand from some underdeveloped Allakh warior, with sand in gas mechanism and so. I have heard that the price for SVD is in US abnormal. I can tell you a deepest (yet unusable for US) secret - i can buy, for example an NEW, COMPLETE, with scope, mount, case, bag, bayonette knife, 4 mag, all in factory packing SVD for $170. That's not because lack of quallity, that is because of great quantity. So if i had to buy it for $1000+ i will be very angry.

Thank you for attention.

P.S. TETZ-30, mentioned above, for example, stand for Boiler Station Nr. 30, one of the city boiler. That is not a secret service ;)
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Somewheretown, Russia - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 14:03:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Page 54 of the September TS shows 2 3/4 inch group fired using Soviet 152gr. BT sniping ammunition at 300 yards. I'm not trying to sell the SVD, as the only one I have ever shot didnt shoot very well with the substandard ammunition available. I bought a 700PSS for a bit less money (and a bit less accuracy, at first :) The author, a Mr. Fortier, reports 1 MOA accuracy with Sellier & Bellot 180gr. FMJ as well.

I for one never sell the Russians short on technical matters. As Paskz's post implies, the Russians have a funny way of getting what they want acomplished, acomplished. Just becasue every AK-74 is not a sub MOA weapon system dosent mean they *cant* buld one. All they have to do is decide that it needs to be done and if it is at all within their technical grasp, it usualy happens. How many 14 year-old space stations have *we* kept flying?

I will be happy to report results with loading 7.62x54R in Lapua brass, but it will be for M38 Mosin based "scout" rifles and not the SVD. I dont see one of those in my immediate future.

As for the measure problem...I have an old RCBS measure stuck back somewhere. I suppose I'll try that. If that wont get it, I guess I'll buy a Redding or <shudder> an Autoscale. :)

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 14:05:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.136)

By all means use up some computer bytes and fill us in on the SV-5 system. To use a movie euphamism "Feed Us the info!" You're right about Chinese cannons, they are most humble ancestors to all our favorite toys huh?
Your local options and access to your domestic matchski quality ammo could be a real benefit to all of us here in the USA. Could you do an accuracy test (inch or metric center to center spreads)with various ammos at 100 and 200 Meters and post it here. That would be way cool!

Tom,
Thats exactly what I mean by a single group isn't representative.

Look at the lead photo for this particular article:
http://www.snipercountry.com/WhiteFeather.htm.

The five shot group shown is .344" c.t.c. at 100 yards fired in about 45 seconds from start to finish of the string. Through a (then)out of the box stock Remington 700 Police DM.

Will my rifle do that each and every time, NOPE!
Can I do that kind of shooting on demand? NOPE!
But damn it sure does get your attention doesn't it? ;-)

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG WETTER YET CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 14:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.46)

Thanks
Eric <BadAssMstg@Hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 15:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 171.214.46.36)

Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 17:04:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.34)

Who can provide me with some constructive advice on the why's and why not's of the Savage Tactical, in .308 win with a Schmidt & Bender Sniperscope?

My best regards to you all.
Tony.
Tony in Bavaria <toemag@hotmail.com>
Munich, Bavaria, Germany - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 17:16:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.158.32.39)

"Hold hard guys, or it will be a long night!" Got to go.

Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 18:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.152)

>By all means use up some computer bytes and fill us in on the SV-5 system.

With great gladness. Although this weapon is very old, it is less known even as SKS. About it existence and qualities not every our sniper knows. My searchings over inet has yielded no results. There is nothing mistical or secret, however, in this rifle. Simpy that is our best western-style rifle.

That is sniper modification of well known Mosin rifle, among russians well-known as "threeliner". As a sniper modification it was developed in 1937. As a sniper modification it has extended and very high-quality barrel, highly custommized stock, with opening for big finger. It weight is about 6,5 Kg. It has detachable magazine for 5 rounds, and fires 7,62 "threeliner" ammo.

In a well known book, wroten by Maj. John Plaster he describes a sniper modification of Mosin with such data:
Cartridge: 7,62x54 Rimmed
Weight: 5,1 Kg
Overall lenght: 122 cm
Barrel lenght: 72,6 cm
Rifling: 4 grooves, 1:10 rt-hand twist
Capacity: 5 rounds, fixed mag
Max rate of fire: 10 RPM
Aimed rate of fire: 3-5 RPM
Scope types: 3,5 PU or 4 PE
Reticle type: Adjustable post

This data is probably for somethig other than SV-5. As i told, it has detachable mag, much heavier, and perhaps longer. On our SV-5 we use excellent soviet 6x optics, german-style reticle. The optics for our rifles was manufactured in 1943, excellently bright and crisp image. On a humorous picture of vietnamese, given in the book we can see something other than SV-5.

I think that SV-5 were produced only at war time, I have not seen any rifles dated later 1945, and any earlier than 1942.

Personal experiences. That is very havy, good balanced and ultra-precise weapon. It is extremely reliable, has superior stock. Accuracy we have not measured, but probably not worse than 0,5 MOA, I think - that is real sniper rifle.

Of course, there is some incomfort in using it. First- it is extremely heavy and long. Second - the blast sound exceeds any other competitors. But that is my choice for accuracy and reliability.

>Could you do an accuracy test..

About mesurements. As i told SVD, when properly used with proper ammo gives 0,9 MOA. If i will have a scaner, i will demonstrate that with great gladness.

Realy, problem with measurement of accuracy of weapon - mainly measurement of quality of the rounds.

>http://www.snipercountry.com/WhiteFeather.htm

Not pointed to me, but i was impressed :) One thing is realy good in US - the freedom for having firearms. Don't loose that - that will be great pity.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Somewheretown, Russia - Sunday, September 05, 1999 at 19:15:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Your statement that we are enemies just verifies my feelings about your countries political aspirations over the last 10 years or so. While many people in this country would believe the theory that Russia/the former USSR is happy to be a 2nd rate political force, many of us retired and active military types don't beleive that for a secondski. Some of us know the history of your country. While our media may portray this country like a bunch of idiots, don't take this for gospel (truth). Right now I don't think your country could win a war against the Arkansas National Guard (State Militia)! By the way, how are you feeding your Army these days? I hear your enlisted men are getting good at growing vegetables.

Believe me Ivan when I say that many USMC and Army snipers still train for the day when they will get a chance to plant a few commies. And also be aware that although in past conflicts where US snipers were behind the power curve this is no longer the case. Although we may not be undefeatable I'll take American know how over what ever your rag tag military can shit any day. You claim that the Dragunov is a fine sniper rifle. You just keep on believing that and remember that our M40A1's and M24's are only accurate to about 500 or 600 yards or so. So snuggle up to about 600 meters or so and get ready to come face to face with 175 grains of screaming american technology.

Remember, Losers talk about thier "best", winners go home and fuck the prom queen. This aint a game.

Kent Gooch
USMC Scout-Sniper

Gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 00:12:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.148)

Gary H.
Gary H. <hatherly@perceptionet.com>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 02:26:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.69.199.148)

Jeff in Canada

Jeff W <blackhawk@mb.sympatico.ca>
MB, Canada - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 03:11:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.200.56.222)

keep your powder dry!

jack
jack <beungood@aol..com>
braintree, mass, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 07:28:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.187)

According to G. David Tubb (of NRA Highpower fame), the accuracy of a handload is more dependent on the mechanical variations of the individual round (concentricity of the bullet, jacket, bullet-to-rifling, etc.) than on the charge-to-charge consistency of the powder weight.

I believe that he wrote in one article that, in the 40 to 45 grain range, there has to be almost a full grain of variation for the shooter to notice anything.

I have yet to try this and throw my trickler into the river (GAWD!!! I want to!!!), so I cannot speak from personal experience.

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <Braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 08:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.54)

Afterall, his posts aren't adversarial by their nature or in tone.Perhaps, he was refering to you Americans as "past enemies".I would be inclined to believe if he felt annimosity towards Americans then he wouldn't be bothered to post or contribute here on this predominently "American" web site.See my point?

As far as I'm concered, if the guy is legitimate and is who he says he is, then cut the guy a little slack.By the number of responses to his posts, I'd say the man has injected some much needed new blood and topics of discussion on this Roster that seems to be getting more repetitious as time goes on.

By the way, with your obvious biases towards Russians aside, It's not just the commies anymore.Just take a look around.The world is a much more unstable and dangerous place than it was before the break up of the Soviet Union.

Hell, with the way things are goin' lately, the US military has to be prepared to take on anyone at anytime.I'm sure that doesn't leave your military commanders with a real warm and fuzzy feeling, now does it?

Also, I'm completely jealous of you.Are you trying to tell all of us you had the prom queen all to yourself? Shit, at my high scool prom, I had to stand in line and take a number for my turn.

You're right, this ain't no game...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 11:31:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.82.19)

About suplies. I can you tell more of the current prices, of which our army gets weapon:

AKM-U (Shortened Close-combat assault rifle) Used by stormtroopers and militia $120
Macarov (Semiautomatic Pistol) Used by militia and officers $70
So, as you see SVD is most expensive, and costs $170. It is shipped in quantites of no less then one package, that is 6 systems (rifle, scope, 5 mags, maintain tools and materials, bayonette, carying bag for spare mags, scope and tools, carying strip).

Is US army getting arms for ordinary prices, provided by manufacturers? That's very impressive, I think many people just go have thick fat on army supplies.

When we got some books, dedicated to US army snipers we wonder how much one sniper costs in US. That's simply safes on two legs - binoculars for XXXX, rifle for ZZZZ, scope for YYYY.. Plus shoes, rangefinders, clothing.. As i understand that, with the spotter is about $10.000? Our sniper is equipped on a sum circa $400. Will I perform 10.000/400=25 times worser? Not sure :)

Often is heard critics on Soviet Sniper School. But american, or european doctrine is also not free from disadvantages.

Our doctrine is based on "Industrionalism". What that mean? Sniper is complimentary unit, not a God of War, even in infantry. They are good addition, but not essential one. Look, no war was won or lost because of snipers! No one city freed or occupated! I am not deminshing the role of sniper, a am one of them, but I know my limitation - I will not decide the fate of World. If so, snipers must be mass-employed, must cover actions, taken by infantry first of all. Soviet doctrine not exclude special and separate operations, but that is special case.

That is simple arithmetics, as I mentioned above. I think the sniper doctrine of US was developed in 50's-60's - when a countersniper techniques was not so advanced, and easy aplicable. Now, more than in 50's-60's the RPG, minethrowers, rocket artilery and other thingies are used. You perhaps imagine how works automatic machine-gun style rocketthhrower? So the key of sniper's advantage is slightly lost the significense - now, for example, if there is a susspection, that in that bush sits sniper, troopers simply burst with that hell machine - and 30 m around will be desert. Not this bush, than next.

An illustration to that is current war in Dagestan. Islamists sent big force, well-equiped mercenaries with guarding fanatics in Dagestan Mountains. Most significant advantage against Federals they have in snipers. I have seen there PSG-1 and Barret's, SVD and SV-94.. They was acting in Western style. And what happened? Shit happened. Bloodbath. Our forces used heavy artillery, rocket artilery and air forces, even 3D-explosive bombs - and all that high-cost terrorist army is slaughtered to pieces, not bigger than hamburger. Our snipers acted too, and have many succeses in the war with such a strong (tacticaly) enemy.

Again I say, I do not deminish your perfect school of snipership. I do not deminish snipership, as it is my profession. But on the place of US instructors - there will be better to integrate some principles of our sniper tactics. We, counterside are ver I think, in case of war, all that Sacred Priciples will go to hell, and yours, and ours. Sniper is not a God, he is not a Artist - he is at work.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 12:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

>Your statement that we are enemies just verifies my feelings

Perhaps we are friends? Then point our common enemy. Probably vegetarians, nudists or The Evil Association of Rabbit Holders, I think. We will not discuss the politics in that conference, you know what I mean.

>While our media may portray this country like a bunch of idiots, don't take this for gospel (truth)

By propoganding such things your media, first of all, is based on the hypotetic statement that listeners are idiots. Why? Why are americans satisfied with lies about not only Russia, but of World itself? And even lies about US? Is it comfortable? Probably, but can cause a lot of problems in future. "Hooray-patriotic coated, dont wash in blood". However I think military personel knows the price of words.

>Right now I don't think your country could win a war against the Arkansas National Guard (State Militia)!

Powerfull interstellar stormtroopers from Arkansas has taken Jupiter and surrounded Saturn. What kind of battles and victories are on the account of this secret Lord Of Universe?

>I hear your enlisted men are getting good at growing vegetables.

Yes, that's mainly true. It states that our soldiers are expirienced agrivulturists, too. What bad of it, another advantage. Smile.

Yes, our army machine is underpowered. Yes our leaders, Moscow leaders I mean are a bunch not of idiots, but traitors and thiefes. But there is many layers of picture, that common people don't know about our country. And that's makes me happy. Look, when the Iron Wall fall, US reputation in our eyes are much more deminshed then our reputation in yours. Lets illustrate: particulary men in US always thinked about Russia, that we drink a gallon of Wodka, there is a lot of snow, that bears are living on the Red Square, and every citizen is KGBist. Nice picture, now changed: Wodka, bears and snow remains still, KGB replaced with mafia. Aha.. Our army.. That's a special case: in uncle Tom's cabins, deep in the Taiga [drinking Wodka, kissing bears, don't forget] we sit near fire in the humorous "shapka-ushanka" with some strange grandmother rifles and guarding Nuclear Bomb #1. Then comes a super man from California, a retired.. for example army-electric and kicks our pitty asses. World saved, press Enter. Nice movie, but somewhere I have seen it many times. Some people, visted our country were encouraged of what they seen. We hide our bears. But we drinked with them wodka - tradition must live.

What we have seen in America? That you see every day. We do not spend our obscured money for dipicting movies about US. But what we have seen real? Don't want even to say anything - but we are not afraid of US, even Arkansas militia. But not underestimating US army, and USMC, of course.

>I'll take American know how over what ever your rag tag military can >shit any day.

Incorrect.

>You just keep on believing that and remember that our M40A1's and >M24's are only accurate to about 500 or 600 yards or
>so.

We are very patient and like to get new knowledge.

>to come face to face with 175 grains of screaming american >technology.

That's pitty. Technology, don't scream! Smile, big and kind smile. We are not underestimating our opponents. We carefully examine your forces and skills, weapons and tactics.

>Remember, Losers talk about thier "best", winners go home and fuck the prom queen.

Calm down, there is nothing happened yet. Falsestart. So there is no Loosers or Winners. Although there is good practice to "fuck the prom queen", in training purposes.
S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 12:44:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.200.131)

>I also saw the comment about being "enemies".However, taken in
>context with the rest of Paskz's postings I chalked it up to nothing
>more than misuse of the English language; something that he has
>allready appologized for.

Thank you. By stating that we are enemies now, I mean that we can be enemies tommorow. Right tommorow, or at tuesday. Now we are indirect enemies - that mean in political terms, that we have different approaches to the future of World. Too different to say, that we come to compromise.

People are waiting for the war - it is itself the begining of war.

So, about..

>Just take a look around.The world is a much more unstable and dangerous place than it was before the break up of the Soviet Union.

Of course, it is so. That's a simple arithmetics: world was balanced and counterbalanced. When US wants to kick Zanzibar, we say "Don't touch the marvellous Zanzibar, our friend and democratic socialist country". When SU wants to kick Bebezia, US says "The Democratic Bebezia is our best friend, and we don't allow russians to touch the democracy". It was of course, anyway, nice words, but they worked - there was no possibility of generalization of war. Now there exist no counterbalance - and what we can see: lies about democracy, lies about true aims of war, unstabillity and refugees; and more refugees, saving their lifes from the saving operations... I believe in such thing: Americans simply don't know what to do, when they are alone, just like kids. Instead of living in peace in their own country, healing US from many disease the US have they want to explore their kicking possibilities, covering them with very primitive banners, like "humanitarian help", "defend of democracy" and so on. They simply don't know what to do with the Globe.

Personally I am not red-eyed fanatic, I was grown in the middle of Europe, and therefore knew that americans are not animals, even before reforms in Soviet Union. And now I have friends in US, and contact with Americans, living here.

But that does not mean, that I will do nothing i can, when the trouble come.

Remember, from what the disscussion start? From SVD. So, count me as a friend of US, as I cleared to audithory, that that is sniper weapon, not a shotgun, as I have heard many think. A uncommon kind of friend, of course.

S(I) Paskz <normadon@respublica.fr>
Russia - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 13:33:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.193.193.97)

Red Dawn, Wolverines, my my, could be an interesting. I want to play!!!!!

Well, waterproof gear smell has not abated! Laid some of it in the sun, glue melted, trashed.

Anyone need a roommate for Carlos II? I am working real hard to get the time off, not looking good but I am trying. Will have to take out a loan to go, have to have two crowns put on the first of the year, $1200 out of pocket. Didn't George Washington have wooden teeth?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 14:14:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.66)

another Pat
another Pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:00:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

I'll fix the teeth with some J-B weld when ya get up here OKAY! Just got fresh stocks of duct tape and BRAND NEW (unrusted!) black waire too!

Aaaaallll,

THREEEEEEE WEEEEEEEEKKSSS!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG MONSOON CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:17:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.187)

Gooch:
I understand and appreciate your waryiness(sp?) of our new 'comrade', but I look at it this way... play nice, and see what we can learn from him about their tactics, so we can better know 'the enemy'...

Paskz:
Prevyet! Welcome aboard. Although we were historically advarsaries, and 'may' be again in the future, I'd appreciate hearing all we can from you, to see how the 'other side' does it. Question: What sidearm does a Russian sniper carry when in the field? DO you operate in two-man groups as we do, or do you act alone, or in larger groups? Dosvidanya...

Bolt:
Actually, no, George's teeth weren't wooden, they were made out of cow's teeth.

L8R,

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
An itty-bitty place in, TN & VA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:18:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.45.10.90)

Regarding your question re: replacing Rem. factory detach mag. with the HS kit. I assume you mean replace the entire fp/tg assembly, as well. Will that work? Absolutely. I've done that and am very pleased with the result. It is possible that if you do that, you may need have a little fitting done to the stock. The stock I did it with is an A3 that was already inletted for Rem 700 SA BDL. A little fitting was needed for proper fit.

Anyway, the HS unit is beautifully done and I'm extremely pleased with the way it works. It is stainless steel coated with black teflon, I think.

PeteR:

How as the match? I got the night one coming up this Sat. Did some testing with .308 last Sat. and am loading for the match.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Laboring on Laborday in, GA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 15:54:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

You're not using the .260 Remington? !! :-0 !!

I'm loading my ammo for The Carlos Hathcock Memorial Shoot right now and agin termahraw, but I literally just ran out of Varget, I Got MK 175's, Horney 178NM's, Berger 175's, GM-210's, GM308UP's

BUT NO VARGET!!!!!!!!

NONE!
NADA!
NYET!
NICHT!
:-(

and ALL the local "purveyors of death" are closed. a Totally MOST BOGUS and HEINOUS situation for the Dudester.

Sooooo.... Its back to prepping even more brass, and staring forlornly out the garage door hoping it will start raining cannisters of Varget here in soo-soggy West Virginny.

Boo-Hoo-Hoo

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SOGGIER YET CITY, By-gAwD, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 17:00:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

"It Could be Secret Service?"

Does that mean Paskz KNOWS the identity of the illusive "MASTER SNIPER"? "The imfamous Butcher of Furby"? or the location of Sarges hide?

Speaking of which........................

Sarge,

"It could be Granny?" REALLY - REALLY - LMAO!

Paskz,
I ain't picking on you, just maximizing the use of a REALLY GREAT phrase.

Al,
"It could be Esmeralda" Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

HEEE-HEEE HAA-HAAA HOOO-HOOO
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 17:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

Ideology behind SVD: As our new comrade in arms explained, SVD and snipers in general in Russia are used aggressively within regular AK/PKM-equipped platoons. Most of Russian snipers are what we call sharp shooters. They just shoot a little further a little more accurately than what regular Ak-74 quipped troops can do. They are a basic part in an infantry platoon just like the RPG-7 men are. Nothing special really.

A normal (this is only one version) sniper group consists of one SVD-shooter, one RPG-7 shooter and one PKM-shooter. The idea is to use one of these weapons in such a way as to lure more enemies into an ambush. For example the SVD shooter may shoot only one shot the enemy´s formation and when enemy counterattacks with a platoon or two, the PKM-shooter and RPG-7 man ambush the platoon from it´s flanks and kills many more than what is possible with an SVD.-> As you see, this differs very much from the western way of doing things. Still it may cause very many KIA´s, especially among less educated soldiers. In any case the idea is to maximize losses to the enemy and not to screw around with "1-in-100" chances to hit somebody out to 1000 meters with the first shot. And the Russian army has probably got tenfold the number of people armed with SVD´s than any western army has snipers.-> Quality wise they are not up to snuff, but it doesn´t matter if you have enough of better-than-regular soldiers. The ideology is almost opposite to the western way of thinking.

In any case Russian army has always counted on bringing much more equipment and men to the battlefield, even if they are not state-of-the art. The main reason behind this is the fact that in Russia it has never, and it probably never will, matter how many Russian soldiers will die, as long as the objectives are met.-> USA invests in billion dollar stelath bombers because lost soldiers are bad publicity (of course stealth tehcnology makes waging war also easier) but in Russia they would probably buy with the same money 250 T-90´s tanks or 50 pieces Kamov-50 attack helicopters. When body backs don´t count for much, you do not need that much high tech. Instead you buy lots of mediocre tehcnology which can, and very often will, tear apart the tehcnologically more advanced army. Just ask the Germans about this.

SVD vs. Mosin-Nagant. Mosin-Nagant is an accurate rifle but not so much as the newest toys on the market. Still M-S rifles are very robust and can take a beating. I would take an SVD over a Mosin-Nagant. Both are reasonably accurate, but with an SVD you can defend yourself better in case of an emergency.

Anti-sniping activities Russin-style: As was the case in the last conflict between Finland and SU, their military doctrine has always been quite like the US way: Anything that threatens you, you just blow it away, no matter what the cost. Their army can afford to shoot 20 pieces of 155 mm heavy artillery rounds to any spot, that they even suspect of having snipers close by. Problem is that you can not shoot 360 degrees around you all the time. According to our sniper training in Finland, you shoot one or two rounds from the same spot and depending on the situation you move to another place or you leave the whole AO quickly. Precisely because a big army will waste it´s ammo all around. Actually that is a good thing for us, as this will strain the supply routes of the attacking army all the time. -> You can exchange one rifle round to 20 heavy artillery shells and one dead officer. Pretty good deal, I think.

-> SVD is not as accurate as a McBros or H-S tactical rifle but it is not designed to be that. For the price of 1 McBros you can buy 20-30 SVD´s. In the end the winning party is not that clear anymore. I do not like SVD, but I do not disregard it, as it is very usefull tool in it´s niche in the Russian army.

Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 18:07:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.16)

Price is $1995, scope included. Any comments are welcome.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 19:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.46)

To any who are interested in info about the 7.62 x 54 R.
Finland M.N. Rifles are some of my favorites. and I have spent some time testing various military and handloads. The quality of the stuff varies widely, but I have some Bulgarian yellow tip stuff that is as good as anything ever put out by Lake City. The bullet is about 183 gr Boat tail, and chrono out at 2625 FPS. with less than 10 fps S.D. It will do MOA out of an old Tikka M-39 that uses brass washers for bedding fit between the action and stock. This same rifle will do .75 MOA with handloads. No magic involved there either, just 174 Gr. Sierra Matchkings (.311) and IMR-4895 in Lapua cases, loaded to 2625 FPS.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 20:19:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Pete - granny hasn't shown her face since then! HOWEVER SOMEBODY laced the range road last week-end with ROOFING NAILS!! I was one of eight I KNOW FOR SURE that lost tires due to punctures, fortunately I was only going 40 mph when mine went BANG and I DO mean BANG - both side walls TOTALLY SEPARATED!!

Gooch - you go boy!!! I spend 20 years of my life protecting our country against those Communist SOB's and they can preach peace til the cows come home! Until they COMPLETELY DESTORY ALL there nuclear capability I DON'T TRUST THEM FOR S--T!!! Some of you'all out there are old enough to remember a little "mobile missle launcher" called CUBA!!

A gentleman philosopher Santana said it best - "Those that do not learn from history are condemed to repeat it!"

Old Southern saying - "Save your Confederate money boys the South WILL rise again!"

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 21:14:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.66)

Truth is I may (or may not) shoot .308 at the match. It did well last Sat., but it's the first time with it since the "facelift". Got slightly compulsive that night and prepped/started loading for it as well as .260. Will have both ready , but still don't know which to take. Hell, I'm being more wishy-washy than an obsessive-compulsive geriatric with accelerated Alzheimer's tottin' three visa cards at the worlds largest flea market. I get that way.

Also handled a real beauty of a rifle: Dakota action, Lone Wolfe tactical stock, K&P barrell.. A repeater chambered for 6 BR. Incredible shooter. Built by Dakota. I think they're considering marketing some sort of tactical pkg. Don't really know. It was topped off with one of the new Lightforce tactical scopes. Major wood. Beautiful.

I want to test Varget with the 142 MK's in .260. If that works, then it's more Varget. It does well with Berger 140 vlds in .260, and very well with 175 MK's in .308. The .308 loves N140. I digress.

Interesting... this exchange with the Russian.

Once again, I say, SC is the best website, period.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 22:07:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Gooch see you in a few weeks. With loads of the slings I hope.

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 22:58:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.134)

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:06:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.134)

As a former member of the military, I can understand a certain amount of gaurded caution in welcoming in a former adversary into the NATO "fold".

Heck, for what it's worth I think that it's only normal to feel that way considering that the NATO - Russian relationship has been strained recently over the events in Kosovo.

However, as a council member of this fine web site, your comments show a certain amount of contempt for foreign (non-American) visitors.

I would like to think that as a council member you would welcome this guy as a respected member of the sniper community (if his claims of being a sniper are legitimate) whose input on Soviet-Russian sniper doctrine would be very much welcome here.

What I would like to know is if your comments are yours alone, or do they represent those of Sniper Country and its council members ? *

Shit man, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion and free to express it however you please.I certainly don't want to say that you, or anyone else for that matter, shouldn't.

Over the past 2 years on this site of heard all of the "play nice" and "maintaining the professional integrity of this site" rhetoric that I can remember.I'm willing to buy into this providing that these standards are applied equally to everyone.

It strikes me as rather odd that the professionalism of certain contributors to this site all of a sudden went out the back door when the new kid from the other side of town wants to come play in the Sniper Country sand box.

I might be taking your comment the wrong way.I certainly hope that is the case.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:29:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.95.27)

Out
mike <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, September 06, 1999 at 23:29:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Strike Fear,
Glenn
Terry Glenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Tuesday, September 07, 1999 at 00:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.95)