Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

September 24, 2000 - September 30, 2000

Chuck,

Have you had any luck finding your Win M70 Stealth? I called 3 "good possibilty" dealers, including the guy that sold me my Rem 700 Police, and no luck, nada, nyet, zilch. Does Winchester really make this gun?

Bravo,

Wyoming??!! Do you know how cold it gets there? That's why I moved to Florida. Lived in Mass, NH, Ohio & Oregon and they're all COLD! Besides, the idea of living on your own Island Nation really intrigues me! :D But I did drive through Wyoming on the way to Oregon - it is nice country.

Cory,

I liked your "rules" for societal living. Especially the one about parental responsibilities and obligations. There are, unfortunately, no requirements for anybody wishing to enhance the human gene pool through the addition of their proginy. I have run across so many candidates for the Darwin Awards that it scares the living $hit outta me.

Militia-type Stuff,

Did you know that in the American Revolutionary War, the number of freedom loving individuals who actually got off their duffs and helped carve out this country was only about 10-15% of the resident population? The majority of the population was actually quite content to do homage to old King George and keep the status quo. Kinda sounds like today, don't it? We owe so much to so few.

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 00:31:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.197)

WHAT IS A POLYGON BORE IN A PISTOL ?(PAGE 8, NOVEMBER ISSUE OF "HANDGUNS" MAGAZINE )
KEN HARTWELL <KBARHRANCH@AOL.COM>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 01:58:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.163)

Lito' I believe out here we call that "being called out". IDPA sounds like fun wid a gun.
Moe; It's always about that ratio that will actually fight for it.
Toy, in spite of Lito's excellent method for adding weight to your gun I'd wonder why you'd want to do it. I'd consider some kind of muzzle device to lower the recoil. A BOSS might even help the group a little. The .338 is a kick shicker for sure but adding weight isn't an option with me unless I just plan to lay prone and shoot all day. Too bad you can't add one of those Sniper stocks that weigh about a 100 lbs. We always talk about. If you're going to hunt with that it would be mountainous country I'd think. Weight is something you don't need there. The little bit of accuracy that's gained by weight is hardly ever worth the trade off. If it's Law Enforcement application you may be O.K. but it's not likely you'll fire many shots from one location. Oh yes, if you do use a muzzle device... do wear your ear plugs! Ruger does seem to have a fondness for Caliber's. It loves the .338, 220 Swift and some .243's aren't bad. Others are ho-hum.
That wood is so crappy that if you free float it. It will be touching the barrel next spring when you take it out of the wall case. Glass bed that turkey with a thick bedding and hope for the best and cut a big channel for that barrel, Or get a real stock.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 02:00:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Well, back from vacation. Wish I could have made it to the hills for the match but just couldn't afford both this year.

Only four kings caught in the Grand Strand Pier king tournament last weekend, unfortunately I didn't weigh one in. Did get a 19 pounder Wednesday.

Ocean is full of baitfish; pogies, mullet, blues everywhere. Sharks are everwhere also. Watched a hammerhead around 10' long hit one of my bud's baits, fought it for about 30 minutes and then broke it off. Spot run hasn't started yet, water temp still in upper 70's.

Time to get ready for hunting season. Will take a day to catch up with the Roster. Looks like everyone behaved while I was gone.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 02:38:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.57.68)

Moe: yeah, it's cold. The things that some folks will do for freedom. I figure that Wyoming would be the easiest, as it's got the smallest population. Unfortunately, even as such, it'll take a quarter mil to work, and we just don't have that kind of numbers. Your 10-15% sits right over the number I was taught, makes you wonder about those radicals that were willing to pledge their loyalty, life, and fortunes. I'm getting the opinion now that we're around 1 to 2%.

Ken Hartwell: polygonal is a type of rifling, kind of squared off oddly. It's what's used in a Glock, and other than being a little easier to clean and possibly slightly faster, just another way of getting the same thing.

'Lito: hope I didn't do anything bad ;-) Go shoot some pistol competitions. It's good for the wasteline, and folks like us (pistol packers) need all the trigger time we can get. HA!

Well, it's a REALLY early morning tomorrow, got to drive 4.5 hours to the subgun class. On the good side, I ought to burn enough ammo to make up for the "sick days" I had this week!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 03:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.204)

Ken H.
ref: Polygon Bore

I didn't see an answer to your question so I'll give it a try.

Think of a hexigon ( stop sign )but with five flats instead of eight. Ok now we take a rod so cut and slip a tube over it. The tube will become the barrel. Now we hammer forge the bbl untill it takes the shape of the rod. Then imajine that the muzzel and breach were twisted in opposite directions in order to give the projectile rotational twist. If you can find a gun shop close to you that carries either the IMI Desert Eagle .44 mag or .41 mag or I bealieve its the H&K P-7 these have the poly bores. They look kinda weird but they shoot really well. My Desert Eagle .44 is a massive monster but the recoil impulse is mild and it will shoot handloads in the neighborhood of 2 1/2" or better @ 25yrds. if I do my part.
Vern <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 03:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.73.225.226)

Bill,

My .338 was bought for hunting up North. My .270 was inherited, and my .308 was my first hunting rifle. I have since discovered that I would rather shoot a targets, and drive my truck or atv in the woods instead of hunt. So I have a bunch of hunting rifles, and no dedicated traget rifles. I plan to rectify this situation with the AR I plan to get (see above entries). However I am attached to my 3 m77's for various reasons-- the .270 was bequethed(?) to me with the stipulation that I not sell it, the .338 is just sexy, and I am agonizing over selling my .308 as it was the first rifle I ever bought (it is also the least accurate). So in essance I want to maximize what I have to what I am doing. It is hard to imageing the .338 being louder than it is now. When touched off it jumps a foot off the sandbags and dust sifts down from the ceiling at the range, guy up and down the firing line turn to see what kind of artillery piece it was just went off (it may be wrong but I like it).

Anyway, if I increased the weight to around 15 to 20lbs, it would suck carring it from the truck to the firing line but the payoff would be my shoulder would be much less sore at the end of the day.

Here is a poser-- my .338 kicks like a mule, but has never busted any blood vessels in my shoulder. My .308 does every time. The .308 weighs a couple pounds less, but the .338 has a much heavier bullet and a larger powder charge, so would a couple of pound make that much differance?
Toy4x4wBFT <SBToy4x4wBFT@aol.com>
Tampa, FL, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 07:49:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.22)

RE: Regarding Stocks and Stock Design

Had the opportunity to get my hands on a Winchester Coyote Rifle today. Nice piece. What impressed me was the stock design. Reminiscent of the old Winchester Marksman stock and very well executed in laminated wood.

Have you noticed how almost all stocks have evolved into prone style stocks? Or the last time it magazines/articles showed someone sniping or shooting from other than the prone position?

I like the Marksman. My personal rifles have the McMillan HTG stock on them and I find it versatile and works well in the prone, too. I have accessory rails inletted into mine and use a Parker-Hale bipod for any prone work if I am unable to use a sling or am prone for extended periods.

Don't know about you, but sniping is "hunting" and a hunting (read HTG) style stock is best for me. I've used the McMillan A2 and A3, as have friends. I don't care for them and a number of them have come back and used my HTG and said they wish they had stuck with it. 'Nuff said, it works for me.

One member of the list indicated he had gravitated to the A4 Stock and liked it very much after using the HTG for 15 years. Since I haven't used the A4 I can't comment. It appears to have some very good features built in...meanwhile I'll use what continues to work for me best.

Comments?

Wes Howe
(The No Nom de Plume Guy)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 08:04:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.106.198.92)

Rob...
That sounds Righteous... My old club is IPSC, and I knew it was a lost cause, when my shooting buddy bought a $3,500, 1911 in 38 "stupid!"... a gun so confluted, you couldn't conceal under a trench coat... defend your life with it... forgetaboutit!

I liked the shotgun events... and have a 11-87 Police w/factory 8 shot mag... you'd think that was competive HA! (as Pat would say)... I might as well brought a .410 skeet guy. Guys had 15 shot tubes on their shot guns (extended 2 feet past the muzzle).
I'm shootng 700 yd rifle this coming weekend, but I'll make the November shoot.
I'll drop you an e-mail for info... Thanks!

'Yote Bate...
That ain't being called out... that's an invite to meet new friends, and play in the sandbox ;)
Callin' out, is what I said to "You know who!"

Bravo...
Hell no. You remember, we talked last year about findin a IDPA group around here.

Bolt-ster...
Welcome back. You missed the ultimate ring fitting... got the front of a pair of Badgers, down by nearly a 1/12 of an inch... you coulda' come up here for a vacation ;)

Back to bed... it's 4:00 AM. :((

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 08:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Moe,
No luck on the Stealth whatsoever!! I called Winchester Cust Srvc and they told me the next shipment of .308 wouldn't be in 'til Dec 30. They stated they'd be getting enough to fill all backorders and then some. They did not anticipate the demand that came with it's announcement; figuring varmint hunters would prefer the .223 and .22-250, both of which are readily available. The only place I haven't tried is Wal-Mart, which, I've heard, can sometimes find these things in other inventories. What the hell, I'll give it a try.

Has anyone fired or seen tests on the Sig Bolts? I saw a few at the gun show yesterday, and they looked nice. They had the thin hunting barrel, so I didn't pay them awhole lot of attention, since I prefer a thick, target or varmint type barrel.

Bravo,
What about insertion by Zodiac or Rigid Raider?

Semper Fi!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 13:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.149.32)

Wes, I have used the A4 stock for about two years now. I still like it very much. In the prone long range sniper cat. it is tops. The USMC has picked this stock for the new M40A3 Rifle. My only thing I do not like about the A4 is the weight. It weighs a pound and 1/2 more than an A1.
Lately I have been working up a rifle, with George Gardner being the smith, I am going to call the rock. It has a 22" 1x12 twist Acc Arms 5R bbl that starts the same diameter as a Remington Varmint and has heavy flutes. It is built on a Remington SA, in 308win and sits in a M40A1 stock, with a Badger Floor plate, Badger Rings and Badger Bases (can you tell I think Badger has the best). I am going to play with several scopes, a MK4M3, IOR 2.5x10, US Optics fixed 10 and an US Optics made USMC Scope. I will let you know which scope I like best. The whole outfit should be light and work for all types of engagements.

Stocks are what you like. I recently had a new Match rifle built by Jerry Rice, in 308. I used a McMillan Modified 40X stock. It is very nice but I am also used to the old Winchester Marksman design, so I will have to get used to it.

One last thing. Usually we just call Officers "Sir" I now name you "Sir Wes"

On the A4 stock. One thing I do is get rid of the adjustable comb and use an Eagle stock bag instead. On a MK4 I take the foam out and the height is perfect. This also shaves about a 1/2lbs off.
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 14:10:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Gents,

Just a short note. Mike Miller has crowned me with the nom de plume of: Sir Wes. I like it. Not that I'm a snob.

By the way I started my career as an enlisted man. Just in case some of you think I just anothe khacki clad cocksucker...

On my way to the range to help out at the Elks Sighting in Days. Taking my 2 .308 M70's (Featherweights). One is a stainless "classic" the other an original 1954 gun in pristine condition. Deer season next week and I need to check zero's.

Kind Regards,

Sir Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 14:29:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.106.198.38)

OK, I admit it. I clicked on the "I don't agree to the above..." line at the In-Country Briefing. Very funny!!!! I happen to like the Purple Puke. He makes a great silhouette at 200 yards! Lots of COM! :D

Now that I think about it, the Purple Puke might be related to the guy who posted "$$ to protect your 2nd Amendment-send now" on the Emporium. Geez, another damn alien encounter.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 14:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.197)

Hi folks,

just thought to get one SR-25 but I know for sure many of you do not love it.

I sometime shot with my friend's one without trouble with good scores but I'd like to have some more comments and experiences.

Please would you like to let me know what's wrong with it ?

(Do not suggest to me to get one AR10(T) because it is not imported here in Italy,so impossible to get it)

Thanks and ciao
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 15:13:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.2.122.248)

Lito' think you're right there, better get down there and meet some practical pistolero's. Just couldn't resist the jab....Oh well,
have some fun anyway!
Toy; nothing wrong with the .338 or shooting it at long range. It's a good cartridge at any range. Actually it is a bit heavier "stock in the box" than the .308 due to the longer and heavier barrel. Can't help but notice that's the same barrel cut that is used on the .220 swift. Yes, it will help the recoil to make it heavier by 2 lbs.Since you signed 4X4 I kinda figured you would hunt from wheels anyway and there's where the heavy rifle is best realized.
Just happens they are about the best shooting 77's. I picked up a .308 Ultra Light 77 once at a gun show just prior to Hunting Elk in Western Colorado. Sighted it in and it was so poor I couldn't hit my hat at 200 meters but convinced myself to take it anyway. Wound up carrying my Styer .308 Sniper Rifle in the snow for 5 days. Learned a lot about heavy hunting rifles that trip.
Mike; that rifle your building sounds real fine! I feel like flutes are the best way to lighten the load and preserve the accuracy even to those who think flutes are a trade off it's a good one. I think they are just as accurate myself but that's another thread we've beaten to death.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 15:46:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Flutes and such......
What do you suppose would happen if you turned them flutes inside out and made them splines?Looks to me like you would save more weight,possibly increase rigidity and heat dispersion kinda like the fins on a Thompson sub-gun except longitudinal instead of radial.Hey somebody has to ask wacky questions.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 18:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)

Buce,
on the splines thangie, when you flute, what's left IS splines!!!! (Wide Ones!!)

While on the subject of "FLUTES"......I read an interesting piece, buy a fairly well known Dude.

NOT the UNDUDE, that basically stated if you don't flute, but just BEAD blast the surface of the barrel, you get a much better heat dissapation than Fluting.

But Mike's reason is not for that purpose so I reckin' it's MOOT..............

Two Shoes
Finally in the 60's!!!!!!!, and some???????...RAIN!!!!!
Ah, Texus, ya' gotta lub it!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 19:45:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.191)

Terry we all learn something now and then. I used to think flutes were just another thing to go wrong but Jerry Rice and George Gardner have made so many fine flutted bbl rifles for me that I now know it is fine if done right. On this rifle it is to make it lighter. Heat is never realy an issue with a sniper rifle because you do not shoot enough rounds to cause problems.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 22:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Guys & Gals,

Just got in and unpacked from The Rendezvous. Its was a SUPER event and any that did not make it missed out on some good times, and great prizes. A number of Roster regulars did VERY well and two Swedes took first team.
Mrs peteR and I had a ball (even though my field craft, well ugh SUCKED!)We wish all the competitors and staff a safe trip to their homes.

'Lito,

Didn't get downtown due to Mother Nature having her way much to everyones chagrin, maybe next year....................

September 29th and 30th, Year 2001 MARK IT- Take time off, Be there!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CLEAN & DRY THE EQUIP CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, September 24, 2000 at 22:43:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.47)

Has anyone heard or shot the Howa 1500 Police rifle. Does it compare to the Savage or remminghton. I am wanting to build another system and was woundering if anyone could help with this. Please e mail me with any imformation you have.
Jeremy Darnell <mercenary848@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 00:36:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.184)

308 Dude,( Alias "The UNdude").

Nice ring don't you think?.

I agree with you Mike, I was funnin' w/ Bruce E.

If a barrel is made without a lot of induced stress to begin with, or the flutes are cut before the barrel is stress relieved,and/or machine work done.

I think like you, there is/will be no prob's, and you get the best of both worlds, a stiffer tube, heat reduction( whether you need it or not), and a lighter rig.

All positive attributes to a fine piece......

Terry( Two Shoes)

Remember The Alamo!!!!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 00:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.173)

All:

Just got in, unpacked, etc from the Rendesvous... Lot's of good folksen there. There was good interaction and comraderee among friends in the sniping community.
Lot's of goodies given away during the award ceremony.

PeteR: Ima thinking that Mrs PeteR had too much fun helping stress and scream at the shooters moving thru the rappel tower first station. Hell she was so loud that we were laughing about that on the side line. She's also a heck of alot better looking than you :)

Gonna settle down for the evening folks!

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 02:09:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Jeremy Darnell and the Howa 1500 Police:

I have only seen a couple of older Howa Police rifles and their close cousins, the Smith and Wesson and (I think) Mossberg guns. They were the heavy barreled Howa sporting rifles in plain oil-finished walnut stocks. I have no shooting experience with these Howa variants.

However, I have built a few huntinig rifles on Howa barreled actions and can tell you that I was very impressed. Mind you, there is nothing about their design that is at all remarkable. Every feature on the gun was lifted from some other gun that came before it. The things that stand out about the Howas are 1) they are cheap, 2) They were very carefull about what design features they stole, er, I mean selected and the action design is very competant, 3) the build quality is quite high 4) Did I meantion that they are cheap? I mean DIRT CHEAP! You can get a Howa 1500 HB action in .308 for about $300 or so and then drop it into the stock of your choice (McMillan told me that they will make their tactical stocks for the 1500) and I bet you that, with no further tweaking, it will go sub MOA on a regular and more consistant basis than a new 700 PSS. In fact the only reasion I bought the infameous 700PSS From Hell (tm) last year was because Interarms was in the process of going tits up at the time and there were no 1500 Howa barreled actions to be found. I wish I had held out, in all honesty.

Can you tell that I like Howas? :)

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 02:48:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.205.236)

Well guys, just got back from the subgun class, and I'm not wearing a beret. I can tell you that the Uzi is NOT what I would choose for myself given the preference, it's just not easy for me to work (the second most important part, the safety!). And I find it also rather refreshing that I had written off the subgun as something that I wouldn't want to be weighed down with, and now I have imperical evidence to back that up. Remember 308Dude, I only learn the hard way, by trying it ;-) Reminds me of when James told me to just trust my instincts. Here's the fun part though, seems that there's a running bet among the range instructors, involving 20 rounds as a single burst. To get dinner, it's kept in the K-zone. I kept my target, got 19. HA! In all though, I'd suggest anyone in the area to head out there, as it's completely free, and a blast besides. I'm guessing each of us (3 in this class including me) burned about 600 to 700 rounds. It was quite surprising to find out the similarities between it and a carbine, and what was completely different (in it's use). Also, I'm kind of used to rifles that "talk to me", as in tell me what they're doing by listening to the action (is that wierd?), and these open bolt jobbies talk a LOT but don't say anything. Moral of the story? If it's a 9, it's gonna be a Glock for me. Anything short and light will be a 5.56 NATO. Hey Mike, does that sound like something you've said (see, I WAS listening!)?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 03:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.211)

Anyone have any experience with Scattergun Technologies? they specialize in modifying Remington 870's and 1100's for SWAT / tactical use. Any other information / sites about tachical shotguns would be appreciated.
Thanks
CDALE25 <sgtgeo@hotmail.com>
Raleigh, NC, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 05:58:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.161.76)

I think ScattergunTechnologies is now a part of Wilson Combat. As Wilson was gearing up to start producing AR15s either shortly before the ARs or shortly after they starting doing shotguns also. The ScattergunTechnologies guns are good guns but the majority of the work done on them can probably be done by an at home do it yourselfer.

Just my opinion.

I do like an old ScattergunTech 11-87 type gun called the urbansniper. Fully rifled barrel for shooting the saboted slugs, had an 8 round capacity and a cantiliver scope mount. Would certainly deliver a hell of a thump down range. Accuracy was touted to be good enough that blowing a door lock from 100 yards would be possible. Should still be possible for a home do-it-yourselfer though once you got all the right parts.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 08:10:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.161.204.203)

Tikkas and TRGs

My previous commnets about Tikka were somewhat harsh because I had just been comparing Badger and DD Ross Triggerguards which really guard the trigger in case the rifle is dropped. Tikkas plastic one is not in their league.

For normal hunting and target shooting Tikka rifles with heavy barrels are really top notch and they are cheaper than comparable Sakos. Accuracywise I think Tikkas have a small edge over Sako 75´s.

So Tikka is a good buy for normal use. For sniping and dragging it trough mud and sand I know stronger constructions.

TRG-21 is discontinued and in future they are renamed TRG-22. These rifles have some changes done to them that were required by Finnish Defense Forces when they ordered TRG-42s. So TRG-22 is not adopted officially by any army yet, but it contains the improvements that TRG-42s have.

Both TRG-21 and TRG-22 are VERY accurate, they have modular stocks to play with, the barrel is first rate and they have 10 round detachable magazines. (Take the stainless barrel version if you can choose). The only complaints I have is that it is not produced in a left-handed version (probably doesn´t matter at all to most people) and the trigger pack seems to be too complicated for real life sniper use. The Finnish Military is happy with it, so it should work in the woods too. Anyway the trigger is adjustable for all things imaginable. For example the trigger can be moved back and forth and the trigger face can be turned in case you want to adjust it.

So TRG-22 is a very good rifle and if you can buy it in the US for less than 2500 USD it should be a much better rifle than any souped up Rem 700 for similar price. I would buy a left-handed TRG-22 in a heart beat. So if you are right handed you should not afraid to buy one.

Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 09:12:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.65.143.15)

Andy and I got home from the Rendezvous late last night. Now we will spend today cleaning and drying out our gear. We had a ball. We learned a lot and met some great people. We will go back next year and by then we'll be much better prepared. This match was a great test of skills. Ours were found lacking and now we know what to work on. I stongly recomend that anyone interested in sniping attend this match. It is a great opportunity to test your skills and see how others are equipped and trained. The training value of this match is huge! Thanks go out to Rod and the rest of the crew at SMTC.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 10:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.56)

Terry; and if you bead blast a fluted barrel?
Bravo; Hate to tell you, but that UZI is about the best, so where does that leave the rest? Good shooting to keep 19 in the kill zone, try that with a M-14 or M-16 some time. /The AK-47 not bad for such a big shell.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 12:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Chuck...I DID NOT get a chance to check on the M-70 for you. SORRY. We were swamped on the range this weekend with idiots that can shoot the target returns, but CANNOT hit the little blue man hanging from it...go figure. I will check with all of our distributors this evening and see if it is possible to locate one in .308 for you. I'm anxious for you to get one, I'd like to see it myself. Be easier for you to travel here to pick it up?

Went to the rifle range saturday AND sunday morning. Thought about you guys at SMTC this week end. Lucky HOGS. Hope you gents had a blast, pun intended.

Anyone going to the SOF convention in Vegas? I may be there with the owner of the Range I work at on the weekends and Jim Cirillo. We will be hawking the custom .338 LM's we are marketing...come see us if we make it....we are on a waiting list for a table, so hopefully someone will drop out and we'll get a spot. Mr. Cirillo is hawking some super atomic blaster bullet the goes 3000fps....yes that is an extra zero on there. I think the caliber is .460. and they claim to have a .40 that goes 2000 fps out of a handgun no less. I gotta see this. Get by the convention and look him up.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
No Nome De Plumeage either, Fl., USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 13:14:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

Undude,

how does the eagle saddle cheekpiece work with the A4 stock? I hate the adj. comb with a passion and didn't know if that piece worked.

Rob & Gerald,

I sent the pics of my TAC-ORD this morning, beware, it is a hefty down load, sorry about that.

Semper Fi

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 13:22:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.68)

Kush, take the Eagle stock pad and slit the rear sewing. Take out the pad and sew back together. Take the A4 adjustable cheek piece and throw it in a drawer. Put the Eagle pad on and use as is for a MK4 scope or one of equal heigth.

Cory, is this the same guy as the NYPD Stakeout fame? If so I would like to meet him. He teaches nothing like the big schools but who could argue on his success. I once watched a tape of his exploits. I think we agree on the just shoot it thing. Dont fret,I will work on a name for you

On the scabbard/bag thing, you Hogs as some of you are known (me I was named for the BIg Libowski?. Thanks Pete) I will build a proto type if someone has something pinned together. If it works we can work something out for DR guys, but it wont be for general sale.

Proud to be Undude.LOL
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 15:08:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Been considering a laser rangefinder and specifically the Bushnell 500 Yardage Pro. Any comments? Also, what about mil-dot binoculars for ranging?
Mark Tucker <tucma@prontomail.com>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.93.73.34)

Mr. Bill!!!!!!, you double your pleasure, double your fun, with a bead blasted and fluted gun!!!!!!!!!!.
I say GO fer' it!......doing both would be a most excellent way to go OLLIE!!!!!!!!
Two Shoes
from the land of double mint twins.
Terry <tls83232@cs.com>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:26:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.46)

Undude...yup, Same Jim Cirillo, Lives here in Panama City now. Comes into the store from time to time. Tells some GREAT stories that I'm sure he could NEVER put into a book. He buys guns from us. He and another dude, whose name escapes me a the moment, are developing a new composite bullet/round that travels at some ungodly speed out of a handgun. He was in yesterday and was telling us some about it. He is a genuine character for sure. Very interesting to listen to. He has forgotten more about gunfighting than I'll ever know. But then again, I don't have the drive for handguns that I do for rifles. I train with a handgun to stay proficient, but I figure if I'm caught using only a hand gun, something has gone WAY wrong. I'm a rifleman.

My buds have been calling me Lame Bear since the wreck,('Cause I'm know to play Smokey Bear from time to time for some of the community schools, they give me hell about dressing in the bear costume) but my wife gets pissed with white guys taking indian names ( she is Native American) she says it's more like lame dog! HA! She modified that the other night to "you dog". I think she was mad at me?

Dragbag idea sounds cool...Let me know how I can assist you.

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

Mark: I'll bite. I've never seen any mildot binos, you thinking of the graticule ones? I've got some, with the thoughts of ranging with them. I wasn't impressed. The 5 mil lines aren't precise enough for me. I will on the spotting scope, but I won't on the next pair of binos (well, MAYBE I will).

Cory: let me know when you'll be in the area, and I'll show. Heck, might even call in a comp time day too. I didn't realize it'd been a year already. Those SOF guys really hammer our steel. They don't care what they break either. It's impressive to see steel react to 50's and such, but not fun for us later when we have to find a welder. If the brew is out by then, I'll bring some too. You got the dates?

Wild Bill: you got that right, the Uzi impressed me WAY more than the Ingram did. My point though is that I can put one round of 7.62 from a M-14 into a target probably faster than I can a burst from the Uzi. I think the power is about equivalent there, 1X7.62 = 3X9mm. Reaction and shooting with the M-16A2 was just as easy as the Uzi, and I'll take 2 rounds from a AR in semi over a burst of 9 from a Uzi any time. Without a timer, I can't be positive, but I think that's about the same time. I guess that's the way I'd want it too, as I can't see training with the Uzi to get me out to the 200 yard line reliably when I could easily double that with the CAR with the same reaction time. Or double that distance with a M-14. As for auto though, the Corps taught that a burst is a waste of ammo, and my Dad taught me the same for the M-14.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 17:53:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Bravo,
You're 100% right about the Uzi. We had to train on them (atleast Fam Fire them) at MSG school in Quantico. Not to compare apples to oranges, but if I had to carry a subgun in 9mm, I'll take the MP5. And if I had my choice of calibers, the HK53 in .223 or the M4 variant the XM15, also in .223. We used the MP5 on personal protection duties in "A" Co. I loved the damn things.

Cory,
Thanks, man. I figured if I got my M70 from gun-fun I could get zeroed at the range out in P.C. Kill two birds with one stone. Let me know when you're free.

Semper Fi!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 21:26:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Well Chuck, now I know how big of a guy you are (HA!) as my hand fit the MP-5 worse than it did the Uzi. I like the ergonomics of the Uzi better, as it's easier for me to find a pistol grip to shove a mag into than a mag well up front (NEVER take your eyes off the target);-)

Wild Bill: did some re-thinking, you may be right. It might be because I'm spoiled out here in the "wide open" or maybe too much rifleman indoctrination, but if my area had 200 yard "longshots" and mostly within 50 yards (forrests?), I'd think really heavy about the Uzi. For out here though, no thanks.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, September 25, 2000 at 22:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Mike,

We missed you at the match, be there next year oh-tay?

After this weekends fun, I believe a short case may be a good idea. I did the stalk w/o drag bag this year, using the "Brown" TIS sling for an over the forearm carry and a Eagle scope cover and taped the muzzle.(It had to be a hoot for the walkers to watch I'm sure.....)

The "catch spots" in the S/M grass were the bipod legs, the Accushot Monopod (Which I figured would happen, but JUST had to test it), and the rear velcro strap on the scope cover.

Maybe a scaled down hybred Eagle scope cover and DB-BS bag/mat that covers the action, scope, forearm to bipod and retains the fastex clip on the front. If you could rig it to sight-shoot-and cycle through that would be waaaaay cool un-dude!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Sore Muscle City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.57)

An MP5 is one weapon I have always wanted to own. I have read over the ATF's web site but it is about as clear as mud as to what the requirements are! I see I have to buy it from someone in my own state and it is a $200 fee (tax) Anyone know what all is involved in the process? All this talk of the machine guns is re-kindling the desire.

John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield (home of the Simpsons), Missouri, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

Bravo, I've shot the MP-5 and a number of others. I've also shot competetion against machine gunners. Me with a 1911. The only one I feared was a guy with an old worn out looking UZI. The MP-5's Jammed occasionally and were hard to hold on target. But the UZI man would clean my clock. I'd be just like you and probably prefer a 1911 at close range and a rifle for 25 yards and beyond. The matches were run and shoot type stuff like they do today but all that counted was time and the best 2 hits (5pts each) in the Kill Zone. Reload when you ran out and hostages took off 15 points. We also did quick draw stuff with the Machine guns on forward point with safety on against the 1911 in the holster. There was very little difference even up to 3 to 5 targets. What I learned was... don't draw on a machine gunner if he is already pointing at you and the range is close.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:30:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Sako TRG-21/41's,

Hexa you are right on target, however I would say both Sako & Tikka are the same accuracy wise,as I thought they both used the same barrel's,I might be wrong there.
I like the look of the stock on the Tikka Sporter ( Target type stock),and it appears to be the same as the stock used on the Target version of the Sako Finnfire Range model (.22lr),it's a pity that there is not a Fibreglass version for both weapons.
I am thinking of getting a Sako Finnfire Range model,to use as a cheap (ammo) training gun,set up the same way as one of my TRG sniper guns,same optics,lenght of pull etc.

My 1st centrefire rifle after my old Sako Forrester (.22-250),was a Winchester M-70,the only reason I brought it was it had a Big Suppressor fitted and looked cool,so I brought it.
A few years after getting the M-70,I started reading the stuff on this site,and it convinced me to sell the M-70 and get into a M-700,as virtually all the after market accessorie's were geared up around the M-700.So I put a for sale sign on the M-70,and brought a M-700,with the intention of custom building it into a Tac rifle.
Luckly for me NO ONE wanted the M-70,and after actually getting the M-700 and stripping it and having a real good look at it,decided it was not some thing I wanted to sink good money into.
So the Rem M-700 is for sale,and YES I will sell it,the M-70 is looking like a MUCH better option to build on.
As I have said earlier,another very good option is the HOWA action,sort of a M-70/M-700/Old Sako mix.

Reguarding the Sako series of TRG rifle's,I have a 21 in .308,and a 41 in .338 Lapua Magnum ,and the only guns that will ever replace either in my gun rack,are the improved 22/42 model's.
Unless you have cycled a TRG,you really have not experienced SMOOTH,and for quick follow up shot's,the action really has to be experienced to fully appreciated.It is a machine.

I only have 3 real gripes with the TRG series, old or new,

1,They do not offer a painted finish,ie moly,epoxy,resin etc,(Green or Brown,are suitable colours)

2,I would like to see a REAL good Serious TAC profile,optomised for a Large Suppressor,same std barrel lenght,however set up for a can like what Ops Inc make,ie threaded muzzle,and a 20-30 degree taper 8-10 inches back from the muzzle,for a 2-point mount.

3,A non-adjsutable trigger for those of us who are not in the Olympic Team.

Having said that,I do not know of any Major company that offer's, the 2-point suppressor profile as std or an option.

If I had too list the gripes I have with the Rem-M-700 series,I think I would run out of space on this site.

Later Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 01:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.178)

Long-time lurker, first time poster, etc.

I'm fairly new at the whole precision rifle addiction, and have a probably silly question. Please explain the advantages of the longer, heavier barrel rifles. I have a stainless/synthetic .308 Tikka, new out of the box, and after break-in, it shot a 0.414", 3 round group with Fed. 168 gr. Gold Medal match at 100 yards. With a 22" barrel, am I losing performance in the 500-800 yard arena, and, in a slow-fire or one-shot scenario, am I losing some level of accuracy? I only have access to a 200 meter range right now, but at 200m, performance seems comparable, with a slightly larger new-shooter wobble factor.

I'm not looking to start arguments, but I honestly want to know what I'm missing (could be the justification for that Tikka Sporter at the local shop). I know these are pretty basic questions, so feel free to reply via my e-mail addy to save discussion space here.

One thought - I've seen discussions on several boards about the lack of the Revolutionary Spirit in today's population. I agree with the sentiment, but I think a better model for today can be found in the Boer Wars.

Thanks,

Henry J.
Henry J. <henryj@cybersol.com>
Wilm., N.C., USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:04:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.46.50.44)

John McGrath: Here's your tip for the day: get ahold of one, or at least the red gun version of one, before putting cash down. If your hands are like mine, you WILL NOT like where the safety is located. After that, just tell the dealer you're interested. They keep the paperwork for just such an emergency ;-) Bring money though, mags aren't cheap!

Brother Bill: I'm sure there are those folks out there that CAN do it, heck, they did the same thing in the class. The instructor would stand next to me with a holstered 45 auto. When the RO flipped the targets, in his words "I want to hear BUUUUUURP bang!, not bang BUUUUUURP!". From field ready I could beat 'em by the end of the day. He had me on headshots and multiples though. As for me, (odd enough) I felt like I could beat myself EASY with the Glock.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
slow day, eh?, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.163)

Mike Miller, Good talking to you on the phone, One more voice I can put to the person behind the key board.

Chuck....located a source for the Stealth. I'll e-mail you with the price. I'll call again in the AM and get them to tell me WHEN. They did not call me back today. I go in for surgery on October 10th and I should be home for 4 to 6 weeks after that. Pick a week end when the rifle gets here and come-n-get it. We'll go up to our club range (totally private) and get it sighted in. What are you going to do for a scope?

Bravo, I just hope we find out about the table for the SOF convention in time to reschedule my operation on my damn knee. OR I don't get to go..I think the dates are the 11, 12, 13 of October or something like that. I need to look again to be sure. We are on a waiting list. I guess they thought about going to late.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:14:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.21)

Bill, Bravo,
I've never had an MP5 jam on me. I always used the SMG 9mm ammo, however. It's a bit hotter than standard 9 mil. Even though I carried an M249 SAW at times in the Corps, I just can't seem to get used to the open bolt thing. That disuaded me from the Uzi, before I even ran any rounds through it. Personal opinion would be a decent shotgun (FabArms, Benelli, etc) with a 1911-A1 on my hip for the close stuff. Maybe that's reflecting the State Dept. training, maybe it's just the Terminator Philosophy.

Cory,
You the man!! I appreciate it. I'll probably get a Vari-X III tactical for a scope. I'll check out the badger rings, etc. in the mean time.

Semper Fi!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.149.122)

SAVAGE 10FP ACTION SCREW TORQUE

Hi gang,

Does anyone happen to know, or have a suggestion for, the appropriate torque for the action screws on the aforementioned .308 Savage? I called Savage today, but was asked to call back as no one was available that knew the answer! Makes me wonder if there is an "official" Savage answer :-(

Thanks,

BR
Black Rifle <BlackRifle@warlord.easley.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 02:55:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.197.55)

Chuck, Bravo...subguns, yuck. Get your mind back on REAL weapons:) I got off track and bought a subgun myself. Now I've got a bullet hose that cost a buuunnnccch to feed. I should be spending that money on MATCH AMMO! (LOL).
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
The Same Banana Republic Bravo lives in, Florida, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 04:12:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.55)

Hello returning rendezvooers!!

Bead blast and flute?

What a coincidence, that's what I'm doin' with the 7-08 Rem!! I halved my flute depth and opted to NOT teflon my barrel, I am bead blasting and was going to spin the ribs (polished finish) but I think I will leave her as is or possibly just paint the pig. I really don't see the point of having a stress relieved barrel reheated for a couple hours just to get a damned black coat on her!! I'll heat that baby up behind the bag, ya hear!

Youse guys should check out this site:

www.border-barrels.com

This is my buddy Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe's barrel shop out of Scotland, and he has a hell of a site, as well as barrelmaking facility. He's got pics and info valuable to all shooters. He also has a ballistics program you can download from the site, with an internal ballistics program, an external ballistics program, a .22 rimfire ballistics program, a twist calculation program and a powder equivalence chart. He also has a couple pics of both types of Pratt & Whitney riflers, just like the ones I use everyday, 'cept he must not work as hard as me since they're all clean and spiffy, heheh. Check it out dudes, and you too undude....

Check ya later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 04:40:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.16)

Jermey RE: the Howa 1500

My bud has a Howa 1500 Police model and it suprized the hell out of me. It out shoots and is made so much better than the Savage FP I have it's not even funny. The things are made well (bolt face runout was almost .000) and the action/trigger was unexepectedly smooth. I just ordered one for myself. With a little tweeking I think it will shoot with my Rem 700s. For the price $359 (1500 police model) you can't go wrong. The stock will be the first thing I tackle, as the factory stock seems a little flimsy. The Rem 700s will stay my main line rifle primarily because of the parts available, smiths and overall general knowledge around on them. But I think the 1500 will be able to shoot with the PSS's.

Good luck
Joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 07:53:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.215.153.185)

I'm new to this site, as far as posting, that is. Anyway, My latest project is the Savage 10FP in .308. I just couldn't resist the price and all the good things being said about this very basic platform. Sure, some things aren't perfect on this rifle but accuracy reports have been quite impressive. I've mounted a Leupold 4-9x40 Vari-X II with factory installed windage and elevation target knobs, and I'm ordering a just released Timney trigger for the 10FP. That's all the tweaking I'm going to do with it for a while, may consider a better stock when the right one becomes available.
Another project I'm considering is a compact .308 "Tactical" (for lack of a better description) This being based on the Remington 700 ADL Youth model. This is also a budget gun.
Still considering a Bushnell Yardage Pro 500, I figure some practice ranging and estimating range using this device will train my ability to estimate range visually and with the reticle. Any comments on this?
Mark Tucker <tucma@prontomail.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 09:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.20.255.70)

John McGrath
RE: MP5

To own a Title 2/Class III firearm (aka Machinegun) all that is required is:

1. Live in a state which permits private ownership of a Class III firearm.
2. Have a Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) willing to do a background check on you.
3. Submit an FBI fingerprint card, Form 4 application, recent picture, and $200.00 to the treasury department.
4. Be prepared to wait 90 days for approval before being able to take possession of the firearm.

All of these requirements ASSUME that you are legally permitted to already own firearms, ie. no felonies or mental impairment.

Usually the only trying part of this entire process is finding a CLEO willing to "sign-off" on you, although there are other ways around this, such as being incorporated or getting a district attorney or judge to sign for you.

The process does have its peculiarities, but these are the basic requirements.

Gonzo
Gonzo <gskillin@maine.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 11:56:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.25.164.140)

Mark,
Just a quick comment on range finders, get the 800 or the 1000yd ones. Theres not that much more in cost and they work a lot better. The 400yd or 500yd ones are good to about half the advertised range as is the case with most all the cheaper range finders unless your ranging a house. I got around a maximum of 650 with the 1000yd model on what I would consider and easy target to range (IPSC target).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 11:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Mark - Rangefinders:

I did some quick testing with the Bushnell pro 1000 laser range finder. During bright days... the best you'll get is about 800 yards... I was easily able to range a house, barn, etc. This is because that big solar generator that we have is emitting light in the same band as your laser range finder... so your max ranges are gonna be down in bright sunlight.
This also depends on how reflective your target is as well.

In lower light conditions - late afternoon - I was able to range on a treeline and grain bins at around 1030 and 1038 yards.... reliably...

The pro 1000 also has different modes for scanning, rain, meters/yards..., etc.

Those other modes have to do with ignoring erroneous reflections generated by grass, leaves, etc... which is really good. However, the target that you are ranging has to be beyond say 150 yards or so.

You can find these on Ebay, etc. You'll pay around 350+ for those - and darn well worth the money....

All - Rifle... younz out there looking for winchesters... check out this on the emporium:

http://www.snipercountry.com/forsale/messages/9000.html

I was told by a reliable source - that this is a good purchase...

ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 12:10:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

To all who got to go to SMTC, you lucky dogs!!!
That place is heaven, lately Ive had to wear out my John Denver CD, "WV, take me home country roads" wishing I was down at Storm Mountain training under Rod Ryan.

"Im busted here and got Dixie(well SMTC) on my mind"
Matt
bushidotnt@aol.com

anyone in CT?
Matt <bushidotnt@aol.com>
New Haven, CT, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 12:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.27.244.72)

Matt...
Yeah. Fairfield.

On Lasers... don't bother with the little Bushnells... Get the Bush 1000, or get ready to spend really BIG bucks.
.
Don't get the Leica, it's a dog-a-roo, and they are being recalled (they'll range a house at 250... HA!).

Anybody got stiff loads for the .223 with the 75gr A-Max in a bolt gun... no pussy gas gun loads please. E-mail them to me!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Lookin' in the bottom of my closit for my pistol fightin' junk ;)) in good ol' Connecticut, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:17:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Thanks to all the Staff and sponsors at the SMTC Rendezvous for a great match this year. It was a blast. Congrates to the winners. Can't wait until next year. Ken we need to get our lefts and rights together for next year. Great teaming with you.

Q: Any recommendations for a good Sig Sauer P229 smith? I Am considering Novak's. Any other suggestions?

Thanks...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Found a "Stealth" yesterday, will pick it up Friday. Any peculiarities I should know about before shooting. How are the triggers? The safety position is new to me. I didn't have a lot of time to check it out as I had to get back to work, but it looks like you operate the safety with the index finger. I like the idea of not possibly having your finger on the trigger(M700) while operating the safety, my favorite safety is of the M1A variety. Now I need to sell the PSSDM although I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy, I guess I will send it back while it is still under warranty or wait for the class action suit. Decided I like the LTR well enough to keep it. I'm sure it has something to do with that .119 fluke group which by the way I have not been no where close to reproducing, groups average slightly less than .625 MOA with Sierra 2140's(165 gr Gameking). Gotta go make reloading list.
Medulla762 <medulla762@yahoo.com>
Splendora, Texas, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:24:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.153.135.212)

Tony Y.
RE: Sig 'smith

The best Sig Sauer gunsmith by far is TJ at TJ's Custom Gun Works, at
http://hometown.aol.com/tjscustom/Web/TJ-home.htm

Gonzo
Gonzo <gskillin@maine.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:31:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.25.164.140)

SMTC Rendesvovs Match

I would like to say thanks to Rod and the staff at the match for all the hard work they put in to run it.

And thanks to the sponsors for their interest and support. Mildot Master, Blade-Tech, KUSA Camouflage, Don Hume Leather, U.S. Tactical Supply, Schmidt and Bender, Blackhawk Industries, Tac-Ord, AMS Systems, Tactical Intervention Specialties, H-S Precision Inc, Paladin Press, Zelco, Whitemarsh Arms, Ken Hunter & Aspiring Technologies, Dave King, Tip Top Products Inc. Lawmen Supply, Slope Doper, Nielsen-Kellerman.

And to all the shooters. Who had a great time. I would like to see you all their next year. And to see your support to the sponsors.

LeMay OUT
LEMAY <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MICH, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

NEW CLASS AT SMTC

Comeing this spring at SMTC, Rod is haveing an SMG class with MP5's. Looks like alot of fun and a good time to all.

LeMay OUT
LEMAY <lemayj@state.mdot.mi.us>
MI, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:54:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Rangefinders:

I've had a Busy Yardage Pro 1000 for close to a year now and I have to say, don't waste your money. The LCD display moves around depending on which side you lay the unit down on. So, the sucker no longer ranges at the spot where the reticle points.
Not cool at all. I don't know if this same problem occurs with other models, but my Pro 1000 is sure hosed because of it.

Before it took a dump on me, though, I could hit freeway overpass signs at nearly 1500yds pretty regularly. It's just that damn LCD...

Roger C.

P.S. - Been lurking for a while, first time post. Learned lots of stuff here so far.
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

Medulla762...

No quirks... it's a plug and play riffle.

The trigger is easy, and Winchester doesn't mind if you adjust it... no sealers or epoxie on the screws.
You will need 2 tiny 1/4" open ended wrenches... get 'em at the hobby store, or the hardware store.
Loosen the two nuts that are together (next to the spring), and they control the pull weight. If you back them all the way down, and it isn't light enough, then pull the trigger pin PART way out, so the trigger comes out, but the other stuff stays there. Then cut one 1 turn off the spring, and put it back together. I only had to cut one spring out of four guns M70/HBV's (aka Stealth's).

Loosen the other single nut on the other side to adjust overtravel... that's it... engagement is fixed by the machining of the trigger, and I've never felt it needed work.
The Winchester is as good out of the box, as you're going to get (from a factory gun)... if you need better, then get a Jewel.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 13:59:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Tony Y. Give Kurt Wickmann a call.
He was at Novak's for 10 years and moved to Ohio last year and opened his own place.

http://www.kwgw.com/index.html

He has done work on about 5 pistols of mine. His pistol work is fantastic and he is incredibably fair. I recently sent him a used SIG and requested that he do a bunch of stuff to it. Well, instead of doing all the work and sending me a bill, he first really checked out the pistol. He found that there were some problems with the pistol and he suggested that I get rid of it and not spend money smithing it! He could have just done all the work and not said anything.

This is the same kind of honesty that I get from Jerry Rice at NorCal Precision as well! Give him a call call at: 740-594-8049

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

RE subguns: I want to comment with my two cents regarding subguns. I have owned and shot quite a few thousand rounds in uzis (have owned both 9mm and .45 acp) guns; macs (have owned both 9 mm and .45 acp) in Powder Springs guns, and HK MP5 K PDW (the sp89 conversion with foregrip and folding stock), as well as 10/22 full autos, and for defensive purposes, which was discussed, I would prefer if I was going to take a full auto weapon, the M16. While I am around a lot of machineguns on a weekly basis, in refinishing, etc., I would not normally consider them the best defensive weapon unless 3 factors are present: the correct penetration, the correct sighting system and massive practice, at least ever couple of weeks.

I have tested a car door for instance with a .45 acp full metal jacket round and found it will not penetrate.

If the bad guy is wearing body armor, which I would if I was one, your 9 mm or .45 round may not penetrate, and probably will not. You have at least a chance with a .223 round unless you hit a cermic plate.

But for defensive purposes, a machine gun is much overrated. It is very easy to hit a couple of rounds in the target and hit the others over its head. Even shooting with say 3 or 4 human silouettes at 20 yards, it takes a lot of practice to do short bursts from the hip and hit all 3 in 5 seconds, where with a handgun and practice you can hit all 3 dead chest center.

If you are going to use a machine gun for defensive purposes, mount a good red dot sight on it.

They are fun for competition or enjoyment but not necessarily the best self defense weapon unless you have the proper sights (a red dot or acog) and practice a lot. If the issue of penetration is also considered, you will limit your choices further for defensive purposes.
tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
AR, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.151)

Roger...

Yours got broke. Send it back, they'll fix or replace it... this is not normal for these units.

Of the under $1000 lasers, it's the best around. I've had one of the smaller units for 5 years (the first one they made), and it plays like I got it yesterday.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:04:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Jim LeMay:

WTF Dude...trying to Email ya a picture...

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<lemayj@state.mdot.mi.us>

----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 <lemayj@state.mdot.mi.us>... Host unknown (Name server: state.mdot.mi.us: host not found)

Ken :)

Ken <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

'Lito,

Thanks for the tip. I'll talk to Bushnell today.

Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:26:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.226.102.2)

Lemay,missed ya man...let me know in e-mail if you get chance the good scoop and who was there
Matt <bushidotnt@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.27.244.72)

There was some talk about the 6X M3. You can get one with a target dot here: Loopy

They want $600. Looie will change it to mil dot for about $130. Don't know what Premier charges.

I quit reading the roster until after semester, so e-mail any responses.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 14:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.65)

JR,
Great site indeed! I especially found " THE MAKING OF A RIFLED BARREL" BY Geoffrey Kolbe article to be very interesting. Always wondered how.

'lito,
Thanks for the M70 dope.

Medulla762 <medulla762@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 15:12:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.153.135.212)

Alright guys,
Got some poop on the Stealth. I e-mailed gunfinder.net, and they have 'em for $594.00 plus I think twenty bucks for shipping.
On useless camo gear...rolling papers!!(I work part time in a cigar shop, we see all sorts of stupid crap)
Later

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 15:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.213)

Regarding stupid camoflaged stuff:

Womens lingerie!!!!! Why would I want Venus to cover her ASSets with that stuff. I want to be able to find it when I go lookin!!!!!

Zippo lighters!!! It kinda seems stupid when as soon as ya strike that puppy all yer concealment is compromised.

DOUBLE HA!

Play Hard!
Mars
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
Oneonta, NY, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 17:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.109.178)

Just back from SMTC.... The place was crawling with such a unique group of people! Integrity was the only common thread.

Seriously, I had such a good time I'm afraid they are gonna make it illegal before next year.

I'd like to thank Chuck Underwood of KUSA camo for helping me upgrade my pathetic ghillie into something that passed the stalk undetected ... also Ken of "Snipercountry" fame... The prize he donated to the comp. allowed me to attend for free.....What a great experience the whole thing was....

Pete Greiff and Mrs G were such friendly, down to earth people you'd think you knew them all your life... and Mrs G screaming "save my baby" at a volume in excess of those encountered on an aircraft carrier deck certainly made the stress course a challenge.

The team to beat was courtesy of the Swedish Military...Urban Lindfors and Stigolof Hollstrom could only be described as a "machine". They showed us how to handle both skill and humility....

Team Mussack will be down right dangerous next year....I think Andy will be "stress-master" next year...stand-by.

If you didn't make it this year...you missed out.

more to come soon... I have pictures being developed...

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 17:43:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I've got some questions and I thought I would answer them enmasse here. On the shooting schools I (note the personal statement of opinion) preferred what James and Mike put on more than I did the Front Sight school. Mike was ALWAYS quick to help out with instruction, and trust me, I need it. Not just as in class room type stuff, but actually on the line stuff like changing my ingrained "roll over prone" from hi-power stuff to a sniper prone. Obviously this was one-on-one instruction, and that personal help was TRULY appreciated. RB and Bob were constantly around giving tips and help, and made things run so smooth it was great. Basically what I got from Mike and James that I felt was missing at Front Sight was the PERSONAL help (not just professional as a job, but as a friend would WANT to help). There was no question that if I didn't try to stop it, they would send me away as a much better shooter. Now this is my opinion, and there's lots more, but that will be upon request ;-)

And to clear something else up for which I've been taken to task: yes, I know Section 8 of Article 1 (the same one I posted on before) gives congress the authority to call up the militia. However, as with all federal laws, it only applies to federal citizens. And yes, I also know that amendment 14 makes me a dual citizen (federal and state), but the states have first authority. That's why the state guard can be called (and has been) to repel the national guard. States have the jurisdiction, and the fed has the leftovers. Further reading of the Federalist papers will give all the details better than I can, and explain why it is that I have a Utah drivers license and not a United States drivers license. BAH!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where people don't know thier lineage, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 18:06:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Bravo/Gonzo,

Thanks for the info. I called my favorite gun dealer today about the MP5 and he said no problem he just did one for a guy few weeks back BUT........................................ it was $8000.00!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because of the law passed in 1986 prohibiting the mfg of new machine guns for personal law abidding constitution defending individuals!!!!!!!!! Now if I was law enforcement then I can buy the weapon for $1100.00 new. But then again if I was a person of the low integrity, low morale variety aka. CRIMINAL I could probally aquire the weapon for less money and in less time than the law enforcement agency!!! But the law is the law. I wonder if the senators and congressmen that voted that bill into law are still holding seats? Then I would definetly not vote for them in the next election. Since the power of the vote is our only real say in matters.

John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:20:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

How many feet per second faster does a bullet leave the barrel if I'm shooting a 26" instead of a 24", like most reloading manuals and ballistic charts show? I want to run some numbers and am not sure what to expect for muzzle velocity from my factory ammo out of this longer tube. BTW, it is a 308 Winchester. I usually shoot Federal Premium 165 SBT's (P308C) for hunting season. Factory on the 165's is 2700 out of 24 incher. I also do not have access to a chronograph. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob <bsnider@dsl-only.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:26:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.105.22.108)

Bravo,
You rule!
Unfortunately most people went to a school like I did that taught us that the Constitution was a really important piece of paper that a bunch of important people signed. They never emphasized anything the document said. You had to be in an advanced government class to hear about anything the actually said. If you had a desire to learn the truth about your country, you had to research it yourself. My schools highest priority was to pump out kids with high scores so they could feed the college machine. Nevermind teaching what acually happened in the Civil War, or what our founding fathers stood for and how it affects us today. They were concerned about how to keep up their award winning football team without firing the coach for giving players steroids, or covering up the incident when almost half of the cheerleading team got arrested for shoplifting at Disneyland.
Richard Stark <navelman@hotmail.com>
Los Repeublica de la Banana, California, (I think)USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.178)

Bob...

This muzzle velocity / barrel length thing has been covered here many times before.
You cannot extrapolate your muzzle velocity, by comparing your barrel length to the factory test barrel.
If you took twenty .308 rifles, from good makers, all with 24" barrels, and tested them with the same batch of Fed 168 GM... the velocities would range from 2550 to over 2700.
So test your own gun, and don't worry what the catalogue says.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 21:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Richard: thanks, but I don't rule. Things would be MUCH different if I did ;-)

John: yeah, that's the other thing. They're way out of proportion to the expense. You want cheap, get a M2 carbine. They're fun, but I wouldn't take one to a fight any more than I would a MP-5 (about 300 yds is it). Hint: they're more fun with a worn out recoil spring. Just out of curiousity, would you consider your right to have that MP-5 infringed? I guess that doesn't matter though as you can't find MP-5's in the current US arms rooms, so it's not proper for milita use. If I had that kind of dough to blow, there'd be a WHOLE LOT more stuff in the safe than a MP5! Heck, I'd even buy a 50 before I got a SMG.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
banana republic, you know the rest, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 01:05:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.253)

The ride home from the Sniper Rendezvous gave Andy and I a chance to conduct a rather lengthy After Action Review. We came away from SMTC with a pile of lessons learned. I figured I'd write down what we learned and then share it with my fellow "Rosterfarians".

100 Yard Grouping:
We both shot nice tight groups cutting the edge of the target diamond. So, zero points for us. My guess is that under stress we both tucked it in a little differently resulting in a small but significant shift to the point of impact. Our plan is to practice against the clock using a similar target to the one used at SMTC.

Stalk:
I did ok on this event. I got the creeps putting a crosshair on a live human being until I remembered it was only Rod. ;-)
Andy stepped out of the treeline to get his bearings and ended up staring up at the business end of Rod's binoculars. Busted!
We both will practice before next year. Land navigation will be on the training schedule. The "Wookie Suit" will have to go. Less is more when it comes to burlap. I witnessed a guy in a T-shirt stalk to within pistol range and take his first shot. Route selection, masking and slow deliberate movement seem to be as important as camouflage.

Moving Target:
Yikes!!! Close range + Fast Moving Target + 10X Scope = Miss, Miss, Miss, Hit
Next year I'll bring my M3LR to use 3.5X. Practice + Practice + Practice = Hit, Hit, Hit, Miss (maybe)

KIMS:
We did pretty well. We could have done better if we had brought along clipboards and ballpoint pens. The ability to write fast was critical. The lack of a writing surface and the use of .5mm mechanical pencils made things difficult.

Target Detection:
You can't do it with 7X35 Binoculars. A spotting scope is required. This event was a disaster for us. We'll be properly equipped next year and we'll know what sort of stuff we're looking for.

Range Estimation: rgetIt was a straightforward exercise. Only practice can improve our scores here. You just can't wish yourself skillful. You've got to invest time and effort in practice. Just knowing the principle is not enough.

Stress Fire:
We did ok. Getting into better physical shape could help here. We'll both work out seriously before the next Rendezvous. More upper body strength would help shorten the times on this event. Effective earplugs are also important.

Field Fire:
We were shooting 168-grain BTHP bullets powered by IMR 4895. Our loads were burning cool and there was plenty of wind, fog and rain. We were missing pretty badly when we got to the Slag Pile targets and then we got lucky. The clouds rolled in and caused the field firing to be suspended. That event got thrown out. Thank God or Rod. Next year we'll have 175-grain BTHP bullets powered by Varget. We will also invest in a Kestrel Wind Meter and do our homework on wind reading. Again, understanding the principles isn't enough. Real skill can only come from practice.

Aside from being a lot of fun the Sniper Rendezvous at SMTC was a very productive training experience. I recommend this event to anyone who is serious about the art and science of sniping. However, I must warn you, it can be a very sobering experience. Andy and I got our eyes opened last weekend. Lessons were learned. We can't wait 'till next year.

Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 01:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.184)

Bravo,

Yes I do feel my rights have been taken away by them jacking the price up so high. I dont mind the finger prints. Hell the Army gets them plus my DNA,picture and a background check. Just let me buy them at the legitmate costs.

John

John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 02:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

My name is Aaron and I am stationed In SOCAL. I am an active duty Marine. I am about to EAS and I am seriously thinking about buying a serious Rifle. I will soon have my FFL and am hoping to acquire a 50 cal. My wuestion is what would the best scope be for a rifle with that type of range. I was thinking either Kahles or a VariXIII from leopold. Little help here. Thanks.
Aaron Davis <av8tor9@hotmail.com>
Camp Pendleton, California, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 04:30:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.156.5.36)

24 vs 26" barrels:

Thanks Pablito, that makes a lot of sense. I always hear guys claiming that the longer tube yields more velocity, but I guess not if you have a smooth Hart or Krieger in 24"...I guess I'll have to find someone with a chrono to find out for sure.

Also thanks TwoShoes for your e-mail, your experience was helpful to me.

Bob <bsnider@dsl-only.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 05:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.105.22.108)

I am looking for information about Steyr tactical rifles. Anyone with experience using them can help me. I am particularly interested in the accuracy of the short barreled "urban" model. Any real world info you have on SSG's or the new SBS is appeciated.
Thanks,
Mike
Mike Jones <roarkes79@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 05:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.244.92)

Gentlemen,
I just tore a rotator cuff, right shoulder, about a month ago.As you can guess, this has had a lousy effect on my shooting!Does anybody have any insight into how long/if ever this is supposed to take to heal up? Doc just said "You have to face your limitations",but damn,I just had a trigger job on my .300 and I hate to give it up,you know? Thank you, Carl
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 05:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.37.184)

Folks,

Just got the last of 4 rolls of film back from The Rendezvous, and I know Jim Mitchell, Ken "Chainsaw" Hunter, and a couple others got some really good shots as well.
Keep your eye open for updates on the Photo page and articles sections over the next few weeks. There will be some real good coverage.

Mr. Lemay,
Right on with the Rendezvous Sponsors, they really did provide some nice things.

Next year I'll have to put a big mouth JP muzzle brake on the .300WM instaed of the Vais, so that I can win a Tac-Ord Rifle. Whadda ya think guys?

Just Kidding!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 10:21:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.22)

PeteR - muzzle brake...
Yea... and I'll bring a blow torch.... I had to shoot beside that @#$#$@$@#'ing T-bar looking obnoxious - side blastin' - face slappin' brake...
I'm sure that thing works really well for the shooter - but it's hell on your friends on either side :)

I think Rod oughta intro a requirement of a minimum 1" for barrel thickness and @ least 26" so that they'll stick out far enough :)

I was getting poked quite abit for my 'Elmer Fudd' barrel (Rod's name for it)... he said that no more that it heats up from shooting... hell all of my shots are cold-bore shots ....

Gotta run and get to work...

Ken :)

Ken <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 11:39:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

Just a note to thank all the competitors and sponsers for this years match. We could not have done it without you. A formal thank you will go out in the mail to sponsers today.

Please take a look at the emporium, we still have match t shirts and are raffeling of another Tac-Ord rifle for $100. per chance (only 50 tickets will be sold).

Thank you
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 12:54:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.148)

Carl Hendricks...I broke both of my legs, got a skull fracture and broke three ribs in a head on collision on May 3rd. my right leg was crushed and needed to be pinned back together. ALL of the cartilage in both my knee's is destroyed. Still in a sh*tload of pain...BUT, your Doctor is wrong...A limitation is not something you live with, it is something you overcome. As long as you are not doing any additional damage, ignore or find a way around the pain (recoil pads,lots of Bravo brew, etc.) and shoot. Plain and simple. OR (this is gonna sound harsh) Shut up, ring the bell and quit. As a Marine friend of mine told me, Pain is temporary, pride is forever. Anything can be overcome except death.

Ask your doc if the recoil of the .300 is going to do any additional damage and keep you from healing.( he probably does not know for sure) if not I'd light it up and wizz a few down range dude! If you really want to do it, You will!

Also you might need to trade the three hundred for a Three O' eight. but you'll still be shooting.

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 13:08:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

All you guys who want to trade your Loopy M1s for M3s: You don't have to dump your M1s for chump change. Loopy will change out the turrets for a reasonable fee. Just go to their web-site.

Pablito: What would have happened on your hasty shot if you would have just cranked in 4 min of elevation?

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.56)

Carl,
The 4 rotator cuff muscles are the most delicate part of the human body. If you take a little time off from shooting and do some rehab exercises, you should get back to 90-100%, depending on the severity of the injury. I don't think that 223 would be too bad but I would definitely stay away from 308 or 300 win mag. A rotator cuff injury become chronic more than any other injury I have seen. If you take care of it from the beginning you can recover. If you push it and it becomes chronic, it will require surgery to repair. Is your Doc an orthopedic surgeon? If so, make sure he gives you the treatment and exercise regimen. If not, find out who the team doctor is for your local high school baseball team and go see him. If you have any questions regarding rehab, email me.

I fully agree with Cory. You have to be in the right mindset. I busted a leg, among other things, in a car crash two years ago. I was told that I would never be able to walk normally and it would take me at least 6 months before I could walk without assistance. I walked at 3 months and was back to my preinjury weights at the gym at 5 months. I also have no noticeable limp.

Cory,
Loritab is good stuff isn't it?
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:47:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

Looking for any info from law enforcement sniper teams who are using or have test fired Federal 165 grain Tactical Load .308 round. Also looking for any literature.
John Venuti <VNOOTE@Gateway.net>
Richmond, Va, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:49:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.21.139.205)

Bravo; You're right there are those with the machine gun that can handle them well and just a little training goes a long ways. The shooters I was shooting with were not professionals.

.308 velocity on 24 and 26 varies less than 50fps normally. Some fair and good shooting loads vary more than that.

Kevin; your post was excellent on the SM course. I for one enjoyed it.
That's what training does for us. Rod your a "sport" to provide this for those who want to learn. I wish...maybe some day.

tshiemer; your reflections on the full auto are exactly the same as mine. Fun they are..... but as a defensive weapon.. I wouldn't be caught dead with one. (no pun intended).

MP-5 I must have had unusual expeiences with the 5 since others swear they don't jam. My experience wasn't all that extensive. I too favor the closed bolt as opposed to open bolt operations. But all the open bolt versions seem to be simpler and less prone to problems in my limited experience. The UZI is a clumsy looking piece of plumbing but it is very effective when the chips are down. The MP-5 requires a little more expertese is use due to it's lighter weight. Fired from the shoulder (properly) it should work. I wish I had access to another perhaps better ammo would help or something. The .223 is a far better round but the recoil is rougher to manage. I'd still keep mine on semi auto if you don't mind.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 14:49:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Shooter...I only take the Lortab at night to let me sleep...during the day I take one Aleve and live with the rest. The day I got home from the hospital I was out in the yard in my wheelchair shooting the .223. Doc was not happy so I swithched to the .22 conversion kit for a week and practiced breath control and trigger. then he let me go back to .223 and a week later I was up at the range, prone, with the PSS. It was hell geting back in the chair..looked like a three stooges comedy. But I had fun. Interesting note here..I used some Aquila subsonic .22's in the AR coversion kit and it was very very very quite and with out a suppressor on it. Made a great Cat gun...er I mean Rat, I said rat. It was as quite as a suppressed Ruger MK II pistol and did quite a number on the stray RATS running around the woods. But it did not cycle the bolt of course. I need to try some of the Aquila SSS .22 in my Ruger 10/22...hmmmm.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 15:17:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

Cory: I've never tried the Aguila ammo, but CCI CB caps sound literally like someone closing a book suddenly. And they keep enough energy to crack the heavy lens of a 8 bazillion candlepower floodlight at 80 yards. But only if it's aimed right into your window, and you've tried repeatedly to have it turned ;-)

Kevin: rather good show! So where are you going to concentrate on your shooting? Small groups at 100 yards? Windage at range? Guess I already know the answer, all of the above and everything else. Thanks for the dope, I appreciate having SOME idea of what I'm headed into next year! All the more you would bestow will be relished.

Mike: Speaking of what I'm heading into next year, it's not like I'm asking to be taught the material specific to the test, but I AM saying you've got a long row to hoe. HA!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 17:54:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Gents,

Blacktail season begins Saturday. Just got back from the range, testing, and sighting in my two Winchester .308 featherweights. One is a 1954 original in like new shape. The other a SS Classic Featherweight w/controlled round feed.

Load was:165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (AOL: 2.800"), 43.5 gr. N140, Winch case, Federal 210 M primer.

Load shot 1/2" first three rounds from a cold bore...dead on from the pre-64 gun. The stainless gun did about 1". Not bad for a couple light weights. Oh, range was 100 yards.

Looks like I'm back to .308 for hunting season and will continue to play with the 6.5 X .284 on the side.

Now cracks about swinging both ways, either!

All the best,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.106.198.37)

Gent's, checked with gun finder .com, on the Syealth .308's, they do NOT have any on stock...........fyi
Two Shoes
In the land of no Stealth.
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:45:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.23)

Gent's, no, not on med's, just sloppy keyboarding!!

lito', on the 70 Win's, are the HB Varmints still made w/ the SS barrels?.
If so, do you remember the model number of yournz?.

Looks like the Stealth's are going to be out of prod until Dec, as a fellow poster stated.

So, rots o ruck, to any and all looking...

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:04:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.23)

A little info if you wouldn't mind: it looks like shooting the 45 just got more affordable, but before I get any of these bullets, thought I would ask if anyone has any experience they would share with Berry's Bullets. They're about 60 miles south of me, and I can get the JHP's for a few bucks less per K than what I was paying for cast if they're worth buying. Thanks for the help!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
bearing the "breaking in new boots" pain, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:11:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

DEER AMMO ??
Which would be the best 308 deer round for around 100-500 yds? Will the FED 168gr match work, as it is what the rifle is sighted in with? THANKS for any help. Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 22:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.177.18.87)

Cory, I tried the SSS rounds in my 10/22. They were tumbling and keyholing at 50 yds, with no accuracy whatsoever. I imagine a 1 in 9 twist or so would do the trick. Not sure what a 10/22's factory twist is. I had great results with the subsonics also, but only to 50 yds.
Rotsa ruck with your shoulder,
Jim
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
Portland, Oregon, USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 23:51:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.12.116)

Gentlemen,
Boy did I come to the right place!First, Cory you were right on the mark as far as doing a "package check" and drive on, and as far as ringing out,not bloody likely.Actually, the point of my post was, how long is the recovery time supposed to be?I have no intention of quitting shooting my "long rifle",but right now,( it's been one month since I screwed up )it ain't working. The doc and the phys. therapy folks don't have any answers,so I asked you guys.Been shooting a .270 with a little sting,but that magnum is enough that I know I'll develope bad habits.I'm going to use it on an antelope next week, but the 40 to 60 rounds a week I usually practice is where I got troubles. Anyway,just hope that didn't sound like whining, I'm just looking for a rough time table.Thanks again,Carl
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 05:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.19.158.197)

Hello everybody !

I going to relocate to the USA for the next 1-2 years before this year ends. I am going to open our company´s newest sales office there. To my dismay I found out today that as a non-immigrant legal alien I am not allowed to buy or own ANY KIND OF FIREARMS WHATSOEVER as long as I am a non-immigrant legal alien. Which I will be as I want to stay Finnish and I will come back to Finland after a few years to raise my children to become proper Finns.

Being a non-immigrant legal alien is according to the revised US Gun Control Act a reason enough to prohibit me from enjoying a normal hobby. That I do not have any criminal history, that I have owned legally licensed and controlled firearms in Finland for many years and that I can handle firearms safely JUST DO NOT COUNT AT ALL.

I am deeply disappointed.

I know this IS whining but at the moment it seems that I would have more freedoms in firearms matters in Italy, Germany or even UK which are internationally not very well known of lax firearms laws.

Hexa

Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 12:13:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.65.143.15)

Heikki...
Keep in mind, that many of the "non-immigrant" alliens that come to this country, are here for less than savory reasons.

I'm no customs lawyer (and don't play one on TV)... but I've had friends come here from Austria, and they brought their own firearms with them... have you checked on that possibility?

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 12:54:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)

Heikki,
Now you understand why were fighting and bitching about our goverment and its gun control laws. 'litos right also, a lot of the ones coming into this country we wouldn't want to have guns but there should be someway for and honest person to continue with their hobby or to purchase a gun when they leave.

John,
The State Patrol guys tested some of them and found the accuracy was not that good and point of impact was different. I take it this is the "Tactical", the one used for shooting through glass, not the "Tap" round your talking about right?? If you use them you will need to have a complete set of data and scope corrections for the change in impact that they have. I don't remember if they decided to keep them on hand or not.

Carl,
You may want to try a good muzzle brake to see if that will help it will really cut down on the recoil. I had neck surgery about 5 years ago and now have 3 vertebra welded solid with a steel plate. When I shot my 300 I would get head aches so bad my eyes would cross. I sold it and quit shooting for about a year and a half and when i couldn't stand it anymore I said screw it and tried my 308. It wasn't as bad but I could still shoot so I started shooting again and now I have went to the 6.5s with less recoil and the ballistics of the 300WM so Iam happy again and doing what I love. I still can't stay in the prone for any period of time without getting a bad headache but when I have to, I do it and take drugs later. I shot in one match last year where they left me on the line looking through a scope at smiley faces for 22 minutes and I thought I was going to die!! I can still get a headache just thinking about it(HA). Cory is somewhat right, you have to decide how much pain your willing to put up with to do what you want to do. You don't want to be stupid and due permanant damage to yourself but it may be as simple as going to a smaller faster caliber. I plan on competing until my walker wont support all my gear!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 13:38:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Doug; Do not use match bullets or even A-max Hornady on deer. That included Sierra Match kings. These bullets are not designed for that and you will find yourself trailing a wounded deer well into the night if you do it long enough. The Hornady 168 grain hunting bullets are fairly good and Other factory loads with good spire bullets are adequate. The Nosler Partician is one of the best and the Speer Gran Slam ranks right there with it. Yes they do cost more.
And yes, I've tried it on the A-max. That bullet will blow a hole in a coyote you can walk through but faced with the mass of a large deer
it will fail. I use 180 grain Hornady Spires on deer and the results are quite good. Nice expansion and shots from any direction are effective. No meat damage above ordinary. Sierra's are kinda fragile
and fail on occasion. The Match King is like a Full Metal Jacket in deer meat. It doesn't work.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 14:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hey all,

Ok I am certain this question has come across here before but I can't seem to find it in the archive.

Regarding Harris BiPods what is the benefit of swivil VS non swivel and which is better the tactical LD shooter?

I know I know I know..............But I just don't seem to ba able to find it.

Thanks again

Play Hard
Mars
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
STupid question from Oneonta, NY, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 14:43:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.110.197)

Mars,

I have a swiveling Harris and it's great for uneven surfaces because it lets you rotate the rifle along the long axis to get proper sight alignment without having to dick with the adjustable bipod legs. From a bench or other flat surface, it's a liability because the tension knob never seems to hold properly and you wind up having to adjust the alignment of the rifle after every shot. In that sense, you're better off with a sandbag up front.

Just my $0.02...

Roger
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 14:58:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.72.26)

Mars:

Harris Bipods: the swivel, notched leg bipod simply can NOT be beaten... that's what MY experience has taught me.

First of all - nonswivel ain't worth a darn on a hill side... and if you compete/train @ storm mountain - there aint a flat place anywhere around there.

2nd of all - the notched legs are a whole heck of alot better than than those darn thumb wheels that you have to reach forward and try to adjust and tighten while holding onto your rifle to get alittle more elevation.

On the notched... just hit that button and let the leg out to the desired notch adjustment... do the other side... settle back down, fire the shot...

Then again - if ya shot from a butt pack or something like that - ya don't have to hassle with a darn bipod...

Ken ;)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:00:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

Mars:
Bipods...swivel... if the bipod swivel is too loose and the gun moves after each shot... take a pair of pliers and tighten 'er up...It'll sit still then.... then again... my rifle weighs 20LBs.

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

Doug,
If you use Sierra 2140's( 165 gr boattail Gamekings)you will get great results. These bullets were developed by Sierra to closely resemble the Matchkings. Acurracy for hunting ammo is excellent. State biologists called last night to inform us our whitetail gun season opens 10-1-00. LAMPS program is nice ehh. Gotta load.
Medulla762 <medulla762@yahoo.com>
Splendoar, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:06:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.153.135.212)

Mars...
Swivel is the only way to go... even on a flat surface.
If your swivel bi-pod is floppy, thigten the big friction nut.
You can make it so tight, you can't hardly move it, and when properly adjusted, the gun won't flop over, even when you let go of the stock.

30 cal, 168 and 178 A-Maxs... just big varmint boolets. Not for deer, but good for tall varmints ;)

For deer, try a 87 Dodge Caravan, at 88 fps works every time ;((

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)

Mars: I've got the swivel type leg notched Harris, and you can't talk me out of it. It's a S-BRM (short), although I might get the next taller one (med) as a standby. Seems there was this gong at 850, and I was shooting off my TRGT databook to get enough elevation, and.....

Now for the "evil" question. Seems I must've ate something baaad last night, had a nightmare about climbing a rapelling tower and the sling swivel gave way, leaving Betty Lou on the ground with extensive damage. Suggestions on bulletproof sling swivels would be helpful, even if they're not QD. Heck, I could hang myself, my rifle, my gear, and Mike fully outfitted from his sling, now I need swivels to match! I can tape or O-ring them for quiet, but I need brute strength.

No takers on the Berry's Bullets question?

Heikki: welcome to Amerika. Where you gonna be? The reason I ask is that some states are significantly more restrictive than others. It's an odd place we've allowed to be built, one gets out of jail rapidly for child molestation or rape, but does a LONG time for having too much personal usage dope. Don't get me started on weapons laws. If you're anywhere west, let me know, we'll have a little party.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:31:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Doug,
I get flamed everytime I say this but I have used the Fed GM for several years and never had to track anything more than twenty feet. The only time I have had to follow a deer is when I used 165gr Ballistic Tips. I do not recommend the Matchking for hunting but it will work. I prefer to have confidence where the bullet is going than having to rely on bullet construction, even though some hunting bullets are extremely accurate. Also, the deer I shoot are very small. A big deer in Texas will weigh 125 lbs dressed. I have a friend in Illinois who routinely shoots deer that weigh 200 lbs dressed. I can obviously get by with a little less power and bullet performance than he can. If your deer are smallish I would use a soft point bullet like a Sierra GameKing, if they are larger go with a Partition or Grand Slam.

Mars,
I must quote Pablito when he said I am too poor to buy cheap equipment. I bought a nonswivel and then I had to go buy a swivel. I just bought the BR swivel version with leg notches and I love it. To tighten the nut you can use pliers or the Pod Loc that is in the In Review section. It does have a tendency to get loose.

Medulla762,
What county do you live in? I have heard talk of an early season the past couple years but nothing firm. Out west (Runnels county) we have a severe overpopulation problem.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 15:57:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

Heikki,
Are you going to get "Permanent Resident" status? If not, you might want to consider it. You can always leave if you want. I don't know all of the implications but it might be worth looking into.

Carl,
My best guess is 6-8 weeks for recovery if there is a small tear. This assumes it has not been reinjured or delayed by excessive use or aggressive therapy. If it is just a pulled muscle, 4-6 weeks depending on severity. These are standard answers, it is hard to be more specific without being able to examine you. If after two months you do not see substantial improvement, the injury is worse than originally presented and you will probably need surgery.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:10:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

Gentlemen

I shot my first Hi-power match last weekend. I shot F-class (scope, bipod, and rear bag). What a hoot. 20 shots at 600, and 2-20 shot strings at 1000 yards. If you can get into one it's a great way to get wind reading experience and get dope for your weapon.
I shot a 592X25 and had a blast!

Bill
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:14:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.20.172.46)

'lito,
Did you ever get around to calculating BC and other ballistic's for the MOPAR fodder?
Medulla762 <medulla762@yahoo.com>
Splendora, Texas, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:44:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.153.135.212)

Guys,
I tried the Ga. Arms 168gr SMK BTJHP last night. Only cycled 40 rounds, but I was quite impressed. Nice, tight groups, Lake City brass, good feeding, really nice stuff. It was getting to be dusk, so I didn't get any chrony on it, and that will be the end-all task. The stuff was $190 for 500 rds and it came in a GI .30cal ammo can. If you get 1000, it's $375! I 'll post again when I've cycled about 100 and can get to a longer range.

Semper Fi!!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:47:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Gents,

Looks like the swivel Notched leg is a favorite. I too agree with the theory of only buy it once so buy it right the first time.

Looks like I'll be gettin a notched leg swivel BiPod. Feel free to email me the best place. The local guy will take me for a ride on mark up and I'll grow old waiting for it. cause his MOM does the ordering and she has'nt been takin her medicines regularly. HA!!!!!!

Thanks brothers.

Play Hard!

Mars
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
If swivels are the way for hills then Oneonta is swivel country., NY, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 16:59:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.88.15)

OK, I've threatened to do this before.....

Heat loss test of painted vs/ unpainted barrels.

A few recent posts have renewed my interest in proving this one way or the other. I have speculated in the past that painted barrels must retain their heat more than unpainted barrels, at least to some small, um, degree. This is the kind of dumb little thing I can't stand not knowing for sure, especially when opinions vary widely and are mostly based upon unscientific observation. So here's what evil Professor Ned is going to do so that you, the SCDR reader, can point your nose in the air and speak with authority on the subject the next time you and your (less-well informed) observer are chit-chatting in the hide:

Have started with 4, equal-length pieces of 1" diameter cold rolled steel.

One will be fluted with a typical 6-flute pattern and sand blasted.

One will be left unfluted, and be sandblasted.

One will be left unfluted and be polished.

One will be sandblasted and given a proper coat of Brownell's baking laquer.

They will all be heated to the prescribed temp for curing the laquer. They will be removed and placed on end, on a piece of insulator board, and each one will have a piece of something-- maybe just a cardboard disk-- placed on top to minimize heat loss out the end. After all, the end of a real barrel is a pretty small area in proportion to the sides. With these shorter test pieces (2 5/8), it will constitute a much larger percentage of radiating area. Temp readings will be taken with an infrared pyrometer at 1- minute intervals. I don't really know too much about pyrometers, but they talk these up real big. Comments?

Why am I using the 2 5/8 length? This was arrived at very scientifically. I took the length of the piece I had and divided by four.

I may do this a few times using different ambients for the cooldown-- like outside, cold and breezy, inside and still, etc. Suggestions, comments, prediction welcome. My own predictions:
Bare, blasted, and fluted will cool fastest.
Plain, bare, blasted will be 2nd.
Painted vs/ polished-- not sure. The machinery's handbook makes it pretty clear that polished surfaces retain heat a LOT longer. I believe the paint will act as an insulator but then black radiates heat faster than other colors.

Should have this in by Sunday.

Ned

Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 17:09:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.143.52)

Shooter/Mars: On the swivel/non swivel debate. If you don't want to keep tighting up the friction nut get the Pod-Loc as seen in the In Review section. Shooter if you've had trouble with it working loose contact Terry at KMW and I know he'll make it right. I have about a thousand rounds or more of .308, from the bench and field, with mine and the only time it has every come loose is when I want it too! Check it out guys!

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 21:19:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.150)

Carl, on the rotator cuff ouchie, I have torn both. The right side was the worse and it took well over 6 weeks to move it comfortably, 8 weeks to pull 55# bow, and about 12 weeks before I could stand my 300 mag. I was a powerlifter at the time and it took almost 9 months before I could get up to near pre-injury max.

Agree with the rest:

Get a bone doc to take a look at it. I was within a 1/16 of the cut and patch on the right shoulder.

Get into a rehab program ASAP. Will help reduce the scar tissue.

DO NOT PUSH IT! Re-injury is a lot easier than the original injury.
(Did that to the left shoulder!)

Train hard, play hard, get hurt hard. Ain't it wonderful?

Bolt Out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 22:21:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.145.104)

Regarding rotator stuff. I am currently a civilian against my will because of a wound I received in Grenada on the invasion that injured my rotator cuff and because of really poor info and or attention to it on the part of my Uncle Sam's Doctors I never healed aqequately. So me being a good Ranger I sucked it up drove on and eventuall ended up being Med discharged into this hell of simpering nancy boys and lazy union employees who do things (as few as possible) for no reason other than themselves...........GRRRRRRRRRRR!

Sorry the rant got away from me.

Bottom line: Take care of it or it'll F$&@k your plans big time.

Thanks to all the guys who sent me very consisitant advise and info regarding the Bipod.

Play Hard!

Mars
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
Civilian In Oneonta , NY cause of a rotator injury!, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 22:42:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.88.15)

Ned; I see nothing wrong with your test, It should be interesting....

Swivel Bipods are the only thing I would carry since I switched over from the others. The only time you need a bipod is when you dont' have it! IT's like a car jack. , jumper cables and and tow ropes.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 22:44:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hello all,

The temp. test sounds like a great idea. 'Wish I had the tools to flute and generally play with hunks of steel... If I may, I would suggest that the pieces be shielded from breezes and seperated enough, say 8", so they don't radiate heat to each other. I'm betting on the fluted and painted. The fluting adds surface area good for both cooling from air circulation and radiation, the paint (assuming flat black?) is best for radiation. Anything in the white isn't going to radiate heat well.

Sounds like fun & can't wait for the results. Thanks for doing it.

Chris (waiting for my darn range to be rebuilt by a commitee of self serving club officers...)
Chris <cmw@tiac.net>
Westford , mass, USA - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 23:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.181.148.30)

Ned: sounds like you've got a good experiment going. All you need is a barrel ;-) Seriously, if you want, I'll donate a US GI M1 Garand barrel to the experiment. It's the GI one off of my old Garand (which became my competition rifle), the first one I ever wore out (with lots of help from the military). Dunno why I kept it, not good for anything, but I did. Yours if you'll add a desert cammo/unfluted stage to your test (HA!). Really, I would say that the most important point, since barrels heat from the inside out, is that the barrel section or whatever is in the oven long enough to reach equilibrium throughout the metal.

Mars: "hell of simpering nancy boys": Thought you were up North. If I'd known you lived here, I'd have brought you a beer! Worst I ever had it was at Johnson, those wuss pantywaists in charge would run folks off for partaking in competitive shooting. You can guess the rest. Every one of 'em a banana working to make a republic.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 00:37:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.181)

Everybody, I just want to clarify that I meant nothing harsh to Carl. I felt that sometimes ya gotta do a gut check to realise that it's not as bad as it seems and in fact, could be worse. Carl, I did not mean for you to just ignore a potentially serious injury. I do it all the time, to my own detriment, but it is not to be recommended to everyone. A Doc is not goig to tell you that is "okay" to shoot. Unless he is a shooter, he probably does not know if the recoil is going to hurt you. Give it time to heal and then get on the trigger. Pain is your bodies way of saying something is not right. So pay attention...Only you know if you can take the pain. Plus, the words I wrote to Carl are the ones that run through my head every morning when I can barely get out of bed, and shuffle out to my fire unit and go in service....Its all in the Attitude to me. You have the fire in the gut, or you do not.

Now I have a question about a product I saw in the very last issue of Tactical Shooter. It's a "Tuned Trajectory Compensator." Sold by Kenton Industries...I'm guessing it is some kind of custom "CAM". Has anyone on the roster had any experience with this cam, and do it fit the Leupold M-3LR? Seems like a cool idea. Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama, not inCentral America but in, Florida, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 00:56:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.41)

Brewmaster Bravo!

Glad I entertained ya!!! Regarding the beer I'll take it and see you one as well. If I'm not mistaken from past postings you are a Texan correct? If so I may get the chance to take you up on the offer since I have a real close partner (Team commo guy) from when I was keepin these generation X sissy boys and their la leche league addicted daddies safe from what (THE LAST GREAT PRESIDENT OF OUR TIME SO FAR) President Reagan called the "Evil Empire" who lives in the south east Texas area. He lives down on the border and says he is about an hour or two from Padre Island. He and his wife (whom I love almost as much as Venus) keep harpin on us to fly down and hang with them for a bit. They stayed with Venus and I when we got married and want to return the fun.

I keep sayin lets do it but schedules are yet to work out.......anyway if it happens I'm gonna let ya know and I'll stop by fer my brew.

Anyway, bein from up north and originally from that shit hole New York City originally hasn't screwed my grey matter to badly. Luckily I got away and let the Army fine tune my mush before they saw fit to send me packin. That and thanks to my Uncle and Grandfather who were both rather opininated Irish cops in Brooklyn and the Bronx who helped me see "the light" as it were. Yup! Thats the story and I'm stickin to it.
Double HA!!!!!

Play hard and shoot straight (a lot)!

Venus's reason for high blood pressure (aka: Mars)
Mars <edfernley@hotmail.com>
Northern , NY, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 00:58:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 147.205.88.15)

ON SWIVEL BIPODS. I also use the swivel bipod. I have the BR model. I just recently bought a Pod Loc from Terry Cross at KMW and it works great. It tightens up the bipod quick. I also have not had mind come loose. If you have a swivel bipod, you need to check out the POD LOC.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC690@HOTMAIL.COM>
C.C., TX, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 01:55:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.152.175.90)

Mars: along with a rather yankified sounding Patron, I'm a "displaced Texan". Now living in Utah (about 60 miles North of the Arizona border). For some reason, I tend to move every few years ;-) I'm planning on Storm FER SURE next year (along with another Mike/James lesson), if I drive instead of fly, I'll be bringing enough beer, ammo, and gear to make the bat boys worry (HA)!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
a banana mini-republic, lousy governor and all, Utah, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 02:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.215)

Rimrock is now making a varmint stock{hand laid glass}for the Ruger Markll short action, Hope this information will help.

Rabon <tndchase@ak.net>
kenai, alaska, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 03:22:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.151.250)

I could use some recomendations on spotting scopes. I don't have a lot to spend & use will be mostly field expedient use/ I don't benchrest much. Have been seeing a Winchester advertised lately but have no reference on what quality they are selling. Thanks.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 03:41:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

Gentlemen,
Pat,Shooter,Bolt,Mars, and Cory, thanks for the insight. Now I know it's 4 to 12 weeks wimp time.Cory,no offense taken, I'm prone to pushing myself and everybody around me ,too.By the way, it's "loper" among friends.On bipods,I usually just use my ruck, the only real downside is if I got to shoot and move quick. Thanks again,and really, no offense taken.Hell, come out to Idaho and have a beer!
Loper
Carl Hendricks <loper@micron.net>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 04:02:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.70.43.16)

Hello all and thank you for your support !

I was yesterday in the blues mood but I received new infro from a FFL holder who told me that there ARE EXCEPTIONS to the rule I mentioned yesterday. For example getting a local hunting license may waive the prohibition for a non-immigrant. There might be other possibilities too. So the world does not look that bleak anymore.

Anyway I will prepare myself with all kinds of translated documents from my home country where the governmental organizations know me better(Criminal Record(I have of course no notes in that), copies of firearms licences etc.) So if there is any possible way that makes it possible for me to prove that I can be trusted with firearms I will try go trough that process to prove it.

About changing the non-immigrant status I can say that it is very hard to get into the USA at all and getting a work permit which I need is even harder. Non-immigrant status is the only fast way to go and working the in high-tech IT business we do not have time to play around. Getting a permanent resident status takes in normal cases years and we can not wait that long. Besides my work is still more important than my hobbies even though my wife does not believe it at all times :-)

When the exact location of my stay is known I will let you know.

Anyway my weekend was saved when it became clear that there might be legal possibilities to continue the hobby I like.

Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 06:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.65.143.15)

Carl re: Rotator Cuff,

I tore the Rotator Cuff on my "strong" side about 10 years ago and had to have it scoped and cleaned up, in addition to the usual therapy. It still bothers me frequently. Like you I prefered the 300 WM and didn't want to give it up. I tried the VIAS muzzle brake and it made a big difference. Find one and try it, the recoil is much more managable then a non "breaked" .308. It's about $175 installed w/ shipping and he does an excellent job. Bottom line take care of the injury and don't mess around with it. I recommend second opinions about the treatments and although the surgery is a lot better now, don't get cut unless you have no other options. I've seen several of the operations go bad, then your really screwed.

Good luck
Joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 07:29:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.215.153.185)

Cory,

Buy an aftermarket Turret!?????

Duuude - If you are shooting a military type load .308/168-175, .300WM 190, you don't need no stinking aftermarket cam. And you don't WANT no stinking aftermarket cam.

I used the .300WM turret cap (cam) and Federal GM300WM 190gr load at The Rendezvous and was flat tickeled to death with it. The only UKD shots I missed were due to bad wind calls on my part, or Mother Nature blanketing the Entire range with clouds.

Patron 'Lito,
Thanks I owe you a Double expresso latte and four No Doze.

Ofta work TGIF!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 10:37:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.201)

Hexa,
If you're ever in Florida, let me know. You're more than welcome to borrow any of my firearms and head to the range with me! Atleast then you'll get some trigger time, though not on a Sako. By the way, Esa Tikkanen and Mika Hakkinen rule!

There's still an open invite to go shooting, formal or informal, for anyone interested. Cory and I are still working on details for a formal shoot. Thanks to all of you who've e-mailed and posted about the shoot.

Bravo,
Took the .460 1911A1 out 2 days ago. Used Ga. Arms "Power Plus" load. 185gr Nosler JHP @1550fps. Recoil was a bit stout, but not unmanageable. When you come south to hang with Cory and I, you'll have to cycle a few (hundred) rounds.

Semper Fi!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 11:32:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Bravo,
Your nightmare nearly happened to me (Twice) in Wyoming. My Uncle Mike sling swivels flat gave way on the barrel end of the rifle. We were moveing cross country and I had the rifle slung over my back on top of the pack when I felt it let go. I reached back and cought it by the barrel and noticed the sling swivel had "Spread" and released the gun. They just wouldn't hold the weight of the rifle. Mine is probably around 13 to 14lbs. To damn heavy for cross county work at 4700ft thats for sure!!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:01:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Bravo, yes, I'll make sure I get a good heat soak. Thanks for the M1 barrel offer but if I go any deeper with this I have some other chunks around.

Chris, there won't be a fluted and painted in this go around, but there will be a bare, blasted one and a blasted and painted one, for comparison. I will give them a good spread so that they are not catching heat from each other. As I say I'll do it a few times in different cool-down ambients. I'll have some digi pics available for anyone interested. Can somebody direct me to the instructions for putting a link to a pic in a post?
Dr. Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 12:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.144.166)

Hows about dis for a sling swivel idea: A single 1.75" square piece of thick steel (1/4" or 3/8"), notched at one end to accept the stud, and machined through at the other to make a nice sturdy loop for the sling. To attach the swivel to the stud, there will be a hole transversing the swivel all the way through, the same diameter as the rod going through the stud. Then, on each end of that hole that the rod goes through, the hole will be slightly larger to accomodate a plug to be threaded into the hole. That way, once the plugs on either side are loc-tited in, you've got a permanent arrangement holding the attaching rod (solid steel dowel) in. Or, for those who would prefer, maybe a set screw arrangement to keep the caps from backing out like on die lock rings. I'm toying with the idea of oversizing slightly the notch, so it would accomodate dual rubber O-rings to keep things quiet. Obviously, I'm thinking hard on this, any suggestions would be welcome!

Pat: you can tell that your warnings have spurred me to action. Heck, I'll pay the cash to have the swivels machined, it's GOT to be cheaper than replacing the Mark 4 M3! Somehow I doubt the studs that McMillan installed are prone to ripping out of the stock ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, where folks can't leave well enough alone, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 15:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Bravo,
I went to the sling swivels that have a threaded screw that locks them in place, I hope this will be a better set up. I have seen the studs pull out of the back of the stocks too, so you need to check on them once in awhile. The front ones are usually pretty good esp. if you can see a big flat nut down in the barrel channel. It flat makes your heart stop when it happens!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 15:55:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Howdy All! A couple of things:

Searched around the site for information on the Elcan. Nothing found and I apologize if this horse was beaten recently. Would like to hear from users as to how they liked the sight, its durability, etc. E-mail me direct, if you'd like.

Second, August edition of the Tactical Shooter featured the IBA trigger guard. Nice looking but also looking for unput on this, particularly, is it worth it and what stock mods are necessary (for example, I have the standard PSS stock).

Thanks for the information!

Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 16:20:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.39.130.200)

Hey Kent: how's the IOR coming along? Haven't heard too much lately.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 17:47:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Sling Swivels; It's easy to see what's wrong with you ole boys' sling attachments. Yore guns are too damn heavy! Do like ole Ken and getcha one of them 2" square trailor receptacles like the cowboys use on them horse trailers. Mike can make you a sling outta one them Nylon tow ropes that'll handle it. TGIF I'd be plum crazy in another day.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 18:48:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

PeteR...

"a Double expresso latte"... What "a Double expresso latte"... I don't drink no STEEENKIN' "a Double expresso latte".

But I'll take two "Beaver Lites" (cold or "warm" ;), and a double bacon Cheese burger! Glad it worked for you... I'll crunch numbers for your .300 "Rummy" (double OUCH!!) this week.

Bravo, Dude-ski...
What Pat said... Uncle Mikes makes a locking sling thingie... has a screw that twists on, instead of the push button, and if that's not secure enough, you can use nail polish or blue loctite... they don' come off!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 19:05:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.112)

Bravo...make a prototype of the swivel, pass it around to us to test and evaluate, we'll give you input. You market the final product and use the proceeds to start funding the "ad campaign" to get everyone to move to Wyoming!!!!!!!!??????????? The prototype/test idea is for real. Hell' so could the ads be for real, whatever I'm trying to say.

Gee Pete how do you really feel about the cams? I like espresso....get all your caffine in one small dose.

Mike, How is the dragbag idea coming along? Need some bucks to make me one? Speaking of dragbags, my bag is draggin' right now, I'm ready to go home and have a cold beer!
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 19:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.51.81.42)

Patron 'Lito and Pat: I've got those threaded twisty Unkie Mikes swivels on Betty Lou as we speak. I had a rather poor experience with a M2 Carbine in an aftermarket folding stock and the push tab ones. I pulled a Mike, and caught the sling as it was zipping up my shoulder (now THAT'S reflexes!). What, you think I'm going overboard with the swivel idea? Maybe I'm putting too much fear into the "weak link" from my not-nice dream? Maybe I'll just tie it on. Never went to air assault school ;-)

Great Friend Cory: the first ones I get done will come to you for eval. I'm not promising purty, but BEEF. MountsPlus should be getting my #19A (thinking about Florida) today, and Ned there is going to swap me a #39A2 straight across. Great guys there. If I didn't have to work all weekend, I'd be shooting. Next weekend is the semi-annual trip up North for Bubba to see the zoo and museums and such. And on a hi-power AND IDPA weekend to boot! Now THAT'S fatherly dedication!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 20:23:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Morris
I posted a question about the Elcan, ACOG and Aimpoint before, and the majority of resonses were that the Elcan is inferior to the others. Some of the Canadian military were having problems with it in the field ( not as rugged as others). Try www.swfa.com for a pretty good selection and prices. Different people have told me one is better than the other, but both the ACOG and Aimpoint are the top choices.
Richard Stark <navelman@hotmail.com>
What has the world come to?, CA, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 21:14:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.207.242.146)

Guys,
As far as practicing with a .22 goes...has anyone had any experiences with either the Savage 900TR or the Marlin 2000L? These both seem to be "serious" adult sized target rifles. I would imagine they are more affordable than an Anschutz...question is are they any good? Anyone?
Later
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore "the city that breeds", MD, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 21:28:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)

Anyone know if there is allen headed (socket headed)screws available to replace the slotted screws on a M70 Stealth reciever?
Also, scope rings and bases. Are the MK4's good enough? I know the G.G.&G. rings are bored then cut in half with matching serial numbers which seem Ideal for squareness along the tube of the scope. And a one piece mount over the two piece sounds better also. But I dont have enough experience in this to know if it is a sound theory.
When mounting the scope would installing the base and lower half of the rings then level the whole assy to mother earth with a bubble level then loosely mount the scope and look thru it to a level line on tape stuck to the wall leveling the horizontal line with the level line on the wall be suffient in squaring the rifle and scope together? Or is it more important on how the rifle levels in the firing pocket on the individual shooter?
Also what is the procedure for lapping the rings if it is needed at all?
Any input on this would be great as there is so much experience on this site for those of us so lacking :)

Lito...........

I have seen you talk about "setting the bubble" level when you are lining up for a shot. Is this a physical bubble that you have placed on the scope mount some where? I know you use leupolds and I havent seen one of them with a built in bubble. I have only seen this feature on the Springfield Armory scopes.

Thanks in Advance,
John

John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 22:04:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

John McGrath...
Yes... the screw size is 6-32, and you can get them from Brownells (and don't say you don't know who Brownells is! :)

The MK4 base is OK, but most of the guys around SC prefer the Badger Base... one piece is way more betterer that two, but if you want two piece, look at the Bruce Baer bases... both offer about 20 to 25 moa of forward taper.

On lappin the rings... Y-E-S!! The MK4's will need it more than someof the others, but they all need it, even Badgers, and GG&G (UGH!), ... or you will find "Ring marks" on your new $1100 scope :((

To square the scope, set the rifle in a support, like sand bags, and use a plumb line to line up the x-hairs... it's amazing how much you can be off "by eye", and sware it's true!!

"Setting the Bubble"... yes.
Cant is a killer (kills your score) on long range targets. Everybody (including ME) says they don't cant... "Real men don't need no steenkin' bubbles!"

HA! (as Pat says)... look at a clock face, and see the little distance between the 12:00 o'clock, and the line one minute after 12... as in one minute!
This is equal to 6 degrees of cant... this much cant on a 1000 yd target will give you 5 feet of miss, and it common for experenced shooters to cant 10 to 12 degrees.
My teamie from last year, Ken Hunter, just put together a new rifle (.308 towed!), and set it up with the best mounts, and best optics... and swore it was square, but he saw my rifle from last years match, and thought he'd add a bubble. I sent him one, and he couldn't believe how much he could be off, when checking the bubble, after aiming.
I first got on to it when I got a Gen "1" Sprinfield, and I would set up on a target, and look at the bubble, and the damn thing was way over to one side. But I was sure that I was RIGHT ON!!

I was SOOoooo sure I was right, and the bubble was wrong (must be broke!), that I took the whole rig and set it up in a square, with a plumb line and all the other junk, convinced that the thing had come loose, and was off... and the damn thing was dead bang, right on, and boy, did I feel dumb.

At that moment, I became a believer.

Every long range rifle I own, has a bubble on it... maybe two... er, last year, I had three!.. but it wasn't my fault... the devil made me do it

There are two after market bubbles... one is flush, and one flips up... get them from Brownells, or Sinclair International.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 22:50:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.56)

Lito', you DA MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funny, you do this rifle stuff for jears, and jears, and think you got it figured out as best can be.( on your own, and what you pick up).

I bought, (rather THREW away $$$ on a Segway reticle leveler), only to discover, you can't see a darn reticle once you mount it, to square it!( there went $20. bucko's for NADA).

Then you use a standard sight in target, draw big black lines ( so you can align your RETICLE).

Horizontal and vert. Only to find, you are still off " that steenken 6 degree's lito' is talking about, add your ERROR, and whammo!!!! BIG waste of ammo, and range time.

All the time thinking , it's YOU, when in reality it is your RETICLE!!, the sucka's crooked.

Never in a million years would it dawn on Joe shooter to use a plumb line, at least not this dummy!!!!

I have wondered for years, how you pro's line these muthers up straight, after spending a small fortune, on ALL the neccessary doodad's, only to have your reticle OFF center w/ the boreline.......

Thanks for the tip, NOW, I will reset all mine, and when I MISS, I'll really know it's the nut behind the bolt!!!

lito', out of curiosity, HOW does the military align THEIR reticles, to "GET THEM ON".SAME WAY AS WE DO?, OR DO THEY HAVE SPECIAL TOOLS, AND JIGS..........Enquiring minds want to know............

Two Shoes
Off center, deep in the heart of Tejas!!!!
Two Shoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 01:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.188)

Lito............

Again thanks........you are da man! So to lap the rings do I mount them on the base and then take a 30mm steel rod and lapping compound, tighten the rings on it and move it fore and aft? I searched the Hot tips and cold shots area but didnt find anything on that.

So go with Bager base and mk4 rings or all badger?

I am looking forward to getting this rifle together and going to SMTC. That is as long as they allow us National Guard pukes in there. :)

Thanks again,
John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 01:19:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

John:

Rings & Rail: I have a DD Ross one piece picatinny rail and badger max 50's on my Rem 700 - aka .308Towed according to this crowd.
I have to say - It's a combination that I would use again...

Lapping: I haven't built rifles from the ground up - but I have 2 lapping jobs under my belt. Both turned out quite well. I did a writeup and took pictures.... Here are the links:

http://www.aspiringtech.net/Rem700PSS

http://www.aspiringtech.net/lappingbadgers

Hope this helps...

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflement.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 01:39:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Bravo, You make it, we'll look at it and it can be the first official product of our new "confederation".

Let me know when you need me to send the aimpoint..I'll zip it out to ya by oops.

Chuck, bad news on the Stealth...I did not give up looking just because everyone said they are not available....but they are not. I called every distributor we use here and just could not find an available one...I did find ONE, but the guy does not want to let go of it for a reasonable price...so just skip that one (like 800 bucks.) Wait til Winchester gets some more out,and we'll get you one asap. I put the word in with several of our distributors that we need two BAD, NOW, SOON!

Come shoot the week end of the 7th and 8th....Range is looking sweet, all of the new grass is coming in on the berms and we just got fresh steel targets out...lemme know if you are coming (or even just breathing hard!)

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 01:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.154)

John: you've got the basics down on ring lapping. I'd send you mine, but it'd probably cost more to send it round trip than to get a new one. They're $17.25 complete with compound via Sinclair. You'll get my agreement with the Badgers over GGG, FERSHURE. ARMS are better than GGG, but the Badgers have impressed me too. Hey, I'm not even gonna make any National Guard jokes ;-)

Great Friend Two Shoes: I use a level of sorts, one that's been left behind by the carpenters. As in, I line the rifle up on the living room floor (upstairs) and line the reticle up on the corner of the neighbors house. My floor is level, and his garage wall is square. Of course, if you're seen doing this, people will think you're 'Lito aiming at lawn tigers ;-) I've used the plumb line too, the farther the better.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 01:57:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.23)

Dear Carl,

In regards to your injury. I blew out a disc between L-5 & S-1 in "training". Different injury, same problem. Pain and suffering. After surgery I went through rehab everyday along with a friend of mine who was a S.E.A.L. Now I won't go through all the deatails of Army Navy rivalry, but... We both recouperated and were told to leave the rehab clinic 1/2 way through our training. Something about maxing out our programs early. We both continued on doing a combination of military and martial arts training to rebuild our bodies. You have 4 goals.

1. Strength.
2. Flexibility
3. Endurance
4. Never give up

I will never be 100% physically. However, I now have more "character", a scar and the T-shirt to prove it. And yes, for medicinal purposes bravo brew, or your favorite "barrel cleaning fluid", Ron Rico Rum works too for those off days.
To everyone, I apologize for rambling, but you never leave one of your own.
Out
BBwolf
BBwolf <Jlehman007@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 02:02:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.59)

Cory,
Thanks for checking on the Stealth for me. I guess I don't mind waiting 3 months if this thing shoots as well as I think it will. Is that next weekend you want me to slide west? I can do it, if it is. Real busy work week this week, but next week should be alot easier.

Semper Fi!!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 02:25:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.149.16)

Two Shoes...
Military?... Plumb lines.
I keep a 1 ounce fishing sinker on a 5 foot piece of 550 cord, and a thumb tack, in the shooting kit.

I used to lap with paste! But... (as many here will attest), it takes three to four hours to lap the bottoms of a pair of MK4 rings to 80% white (where only 20% of the blue area is left)... and that's taking only about .003" to .005" off the inside... it's V-E-R-Y slow.

Had a machine shop put the lapping bar on centers, and take a .010" cut, (reduced the diameter by .020")... and now I use "wet 'n' dry" carborundum or silicone paper, and can do a set of MK4 rings BOTTOMS AND TOPS, in 20 minutes to 100% white.
That's why Bolt-ster won't talk to me anymore ;)
Two weeks ago, I did a set of rings with the front ring getting almost 1/10th of an inch more cut than the back... so I could have 90 moa of taper for a bauch & Lomb 10x Tac... was a piece of cake, sorta ;((

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
LAWN TIGERS!... Ah yes... it's hunting season again ;)) in good ol', USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 02:32:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.84)

Gentlemen,

putting together a rifle to be used for competition. Considering the 6mm PPC and the .22-250 cartridges. Any of you fired those cartridges that might have some practical insight ?

Regards,

Ares
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 05:46:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.219)

Hello folks!!

All this talk about lapping, ya know I've gotta lap about 50 bbls Saturday, will have forearms like Popeye!!!

'Lito, Ken, and the rest of youse ring lappers:

When you do use lapping compound, what source do you go thru?? I use United States Products (USP) lapping compound exclusively for all of my barrel jobs, they specialize in the greezy stuff. They seem to have the best medium out there for lapping round holes, and I have went thru many a vendor. Aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, corundum(no not carborundum), emerys, diamond, you name it they's got it. I just got three samples from them today: 220, 280, and 320 grit Alum Oxide, and I tell ya what, bore reamer marks are now a thing of the past! Anyway, I know a guy could find the junk that would remove material in a hurry and finish her off with a good polish, and I would prefer using a compound than paper.

Speaking of that, you know I read an article a while back, in Guns n' Whammo or one of those Peterson mags, that the author was actually tellin' people to wrap 600 grit Wet/dry around the jag and stroke the barrel till the lands were shiny to their liking!! Said it was a fine way to get rid of those unsightly reamer marks... I about had a stroke. Actually I wanted to write a letter to the mag as a barrelmaker thanking the author for increasing the demand on rebarrel jobs. Hell, I wish I'd have thought of it first.

Later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 05:59:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.74)

In reading through the history of snipers I didn't see any mention of Chuck Mawhinney. He was found to be the sniper with the highest confirmed kills in Viet Nam and quietly lived in Oregon for the past twenty plus years that way until someone reviewed the records. I would just suggest that he would clearly be a worthy addition to that part of your web page. This is a great web site with a lot of useful info., thanks.
Sean McGann <Akitarescu@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 07:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.168)

which one of you rosterrats mentioned he had a Buell ?
neighbor across the street has one and is looking for a 2 1/2 inch exhaust. help ?

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 12:05:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.159.89.247)

Lito, Lito, Lito,

Its Ditch Tigers! ;-)

JR,

Thanks for the input on polishing the barrels and chambers and what to use. I've heard that Aluminum Oxide is the best way to go and coming from you thats now well substantiated!
I have heard some type of synthetic ruby abrasive is awefull good but "cuts" faster and is harder to clean out. I ain't a machinist or die maker but sounds right something to do with round particles versus jagged or sumfin like dat.
You have to come out to The Rendezvous next year and drag Pat Murphy along too.

Later Gaters! (and Un-dudes too!)

peteR <PNGREIF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:16:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.201)

Has anyone seen, or knows anybody who has used the new DAVID TUBB`S 2000 rifle.
missedbyamile <762@gsw2chest.freeserve.co.uk>
UNITED KINGDOM - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.44.242.156)

JR: lapping...

JR - I've only lapped two sets of rings... no barrels... would love to get to where I can build a complete gun. Anyhow... the lapping kit that I have is the one that comes from Kokopelli (think I spelled it right). The lapping compound in there is a kind of gray gritty stuff... reminds me of really good and gritty toothpaste...It didn't take long to do a nice job on the badger max50's. I did the the lapping where the top rings were in place...just tight enough to create drag.
That's the best I can tell ya for now...

Ken :)

Ken <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:29:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Those that believe that the first victim of war, is "The Truth"...
... have never witnessed an Americal election cycle.
It is not an election... it's just a smaller war, with bigger lies.

God, I hear the crud from the "Hillary" bunch, in NY, and the crap from New Jersey, and it reminds me of the saying the people will get the government they deserve... which is true, and fine.
Except... I DON'T WANT... the government that "they" deserve!
Bravo Dude-ski... lemme know how the Wyoming project is going!

JR...
I used the paste that came with the Sinclair Lap at first. Don't know what it is.
I wasn't happy with the progress... it took forever, and it was virtually impossible to get past 75 to 80% (which is good enough), and I didn't bother to do the tops.

But I do a lot of rings, so I went with wrapping an undersized bar with "Wet 'n' Dry" paper.
I start with 220 grit, go to 600 to finish. The rings will not mar a scope, even when you twist it in the mount to plumb the crosshairs.

Speaking of which... would you be so kind as to write up a few paragraphs for the Rosterfarians, on barrel lapping. What do you use, what kind of lap, how you put the paste on... etc.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know.

Sean McGann...

Chuck Mawhinney has been mentioned here often, and his accomplishments are trully note worthy... but there are two things.
Sniping isn't about head count... it not a cowboy movie with notches on the handle of your Colt.
The "Sniper" is to the "platoon", as the "Ronin" is to the "Samurai".

Carlos's most famous accomplishment was not the head count, it was his saving the lives of his friends, in a burning APC... and his later dedication to teaching the art of long-range shooting, which is what this site is about.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
ONE SHOT, one Kat!, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:31:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.103)

Cory, on the bag. I have not done any sewing this week. I went to the shop and found a dead Racoon in the basement. It had been there a week or so before I smelled it. Then it was a few days to get the smell out. This week I will start on the bag. I have some new ideas I have to see if I can make work. I will let you know.

Ring Lapping, just buy Badger Rings and bases and use as is. No need to lap!. I never lap the rings. Marty makes better stuff than that.
I see more guys spend hours on this and wonder if the groups would be better if they dry fired instead?

JR, sand paper to smoth a bore? Petterson Publishing again at its finest. Why not wrap it around a bullet and fire it? Better yet use a Dremel on the bore or drill it. What a goof that mag is. Oh, well they will keep you in business.

Bravo, we are planning something you guys will like alot, well years latter you might. Only kidding I have not killed anyone in training yet. Just bring plenty of water and remember to check the ruck for rocks. Ben rules!

On Sling Swivels, this is an area that needs someone to build a better mouse trap. Yes, Uncle Mikes has the lock down type but the darn things do break. All swivels that I have tried break. I broke a target/center button swivels last year, but that is the first one of those I have broken. Right now that is the toughest way to go, but dirt will plug the holes if no swivels is in them. We need a bigger swivel stud and scaled up uncle mikes QD.

Sir Wes, back to the 308, I can not blame you. Great all around round.
Undude/Mike

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Professor Ned nonchalantly walks into the study. Pretending to be searching for a certain book on the shelf, he furtively glances one way, then the other. No one is about. He selects Tolstoy's "War: What Are You Good For", and gently pushes it. Smoothly and silently, the book case swings in, exposing a secret passageway. He steps in and the portal swings shut. From a coat hook, he takes an immaculate white lab coat and dons it. The Hoppe's stains are gone, he idly notices. They always are. He starts down the winding stone staircase, awash in the flickering yellow glow of huge candles, set into recesses in the wall every few steps. He wonders how it is that they are always already lit and never seem to burn out. He wishes that whoever is taking care of the candles would also sweep those pesky perpetual cobwebs once in a frigging while. Coming back to the here and now, he mentally runs through the process he is about to undertake, and realizes: "Damn, I forgot the Brownell's Baking Laquer!"
Professor Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 13:54:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.160)

UNDUDE, WHAT A BLASPHEMOUS STATEMENT YOU HAVE MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALL rings must be, repeat, must be lapped! There must be shining white metal showing before insertion. Some folks, ahem (lito), have just found quicker albeit [woosier] ways to do it.

Anyone know the date for next years match? Going to put in for vacation, advise he girlfriend, tell the fishing buddies and plan on shutting down the side business the minute I know the date. Have stated saving the money and if it hair-lips the devil himself, I will be there next year.

Me and the armouror up the street are designing a 6mmx20mm for some flat long range shooting. Have to do something to make up for my still crappy range estimating ability!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 15:34:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.186.209)

Bravo,
RE: Wyoming Project
There's alot of open land for sale really cheap. I found a property a while back that was approx. 200 acres with a mesa in the middle of it.
The mesa took up a good area of the land, was leveled off for building and had a road that winded up to the top. It was right in the Great Divide Basin area ( west of Cheyanne somewhere ). You get snowed-in during the blizzards, but when you're overlooking everything for a few miles in every direction from the top of a mesa, who cares about being snowed-in ( if you were smart enough to stock up
before winter ). My wife and I didn't have the money down for it, I wish we could have. It was right next to government land, and the animals roamed all over the place.
I think the Wyoming Project is starting to grind away at the back of everyone's heads. You should go for it!
Richard Stark <navelman@hotmail.com>
Going to the range today in, California, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 15:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.207.242.146)

Bolt: You're half right anyway, but so is Mike. I can't stand the idea of ring marks on my scope, so I lap. If you've got a good ring / base maker, it should be superfulous. As for myself, I use the ARMS products, and they're parkerized. You know what kind of a rough surface parkerizing is. And for JR, I prefer aluminum oxide, but that's 'cause it does valves so good ;-) It's slower, but you get better results (I think) and don't have to worry about taking off too much metal too quick.

Mike: I'm not worried about you killing me in training, I'm worried about you making me wish I was dead LOL. Why do I have the impression that I'll be carrying 16 pounds of water? On the sling swivels, I think I've got a better beast, but I've located another weak link. If you oversize the studs, it's easy enough for the rear, but not the front. Almost there. When I get there, I may have to go into production.

'Lito: You said a mouth full. The reason I signed the petition to get Carlos the CMH wasn't because of sniping skills, it was for WAY over and above in the APC incident. As for Wyoming, now we have a problem. You've got the call of getting a quarter million folks willing to move and VOTE, or 1/5th that willing to take a 90 mile cruise to play on a beautiful island. In my opinion, they're both no-go's. There's not enough folks for either one today. But in related news, the irs is moving large numbers of agents into Utah to persecute (prosecute?) the tax protestors out here. Seems they think it's gone "too far". Heck, just reminds me of the Boston harbor. Now, some of these tax protestors are the "multiple wife" kind, and therefore I think they're NUTS, but they're technically right. Note, if you win a suit against the irs in federal court, that has no standing. Tax court is the only thing the irs has to follow (wouldn't that be nice, to be your own oversight?).

And we're all going to get what we deserve. The fine folks that tried to keep Elian Gonzales in Miami are now suing the federal government. Of course they will win, as what reno did was strictly illegal (violated a court order). It's interesting that the government will allow these folks the priveledge of the suit to begin with. Anyway, when the verdict is delivered, it'll be for millions of taxpayer dollars to be delivered. Thus we will ALL pay for our government, and not having stopped the illegality the administration says was "appropriate under the circumstances". Note, nothing about legal. Maybe the Cuban trip can be considered a "repatriation of Elian" HA!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
sorry for the distraction, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 16:30:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.23)

Undude...I'm with you...get Badger rings and just MOUNT 'EM! I just took the Leupold M-3LR scope off of the .300 WM and no ring marks on the scope. By the way if you can get it freon is the way to go to clean paint off off scopes. It degreases great too.

Bravo, can I just transfer the freon to a pump spray bottle to use it to degrease the beadblasted action, or do I need to wipe it on? Best way to use this stuff?

Got to shoot a very interesting one off weapon last night, It is a .338 Whisper. Way cool. Lighter than the .50 whisper and the noise suppression seemed as good as some of the .300 whispers I've fired. As soon as I get my .300 Win Mag back from the 'smith that is building it I will get digi-photos the stuff he builds and TRY to post them somewhere you roosterfarians can see them.

Chuck, yes, next week end. Come and shoot with the crew over here. See the store. Take a look at some of the custom stuff we're trying to get out on the market. OH. We got a brand NEW HK-91A-2 in the store yesterday if anyone is interested. Give me a call tomorrow at the store after 1200 central. I mean it ain't never been shot 'afore. Very very nice gun.

Project Wyoming...uh oh. It's got a name now. Look out Bravo, it's starting to get a life of it's own. All bullsh*tting aside. It is a damn fine idea. I wanna be Director of the Wyoming Division of Forestry..we gotta keep wildfires from burning down the trees in Wyoming....All four of 'em!

Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 16:47:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.91)

Alien Gonzales...Damn, That little turd will never go away. If it that had been one of my sons I would have marched my happy ass up here, grabbed the little sh*t by the hand and "toted" his little scawney as* HOME where he belonged. To hell with the guv'mint. GOD gives us responsibility for our children, not Janet "barbecue" Reno. I would have had to stomp Uncle numbnuts as*, but so be it.

Bravo, Don't give up on the "Home Land" idea dude, just 'cause the polygamist LDS people out there can't win, does not mean SOMEONE can't. And in the long run, they did win. Think about it. I know, as well you do, Who runs the Utah State Legislature.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
IRS can't leave god fearing people alone, Fl., USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 17:05:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.91)

T,
Was ist los? Ich habst ein Buell.

Let me know what your buddy needs and I'll try to come up with a source for him.

Semper Fi!!!
Der Teufel Hunde
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, FL, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 17:05:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Cory,
Make plans, bro. I'll give you a call later on (I'm working all weekend) to verify everything. I didn't buy anything at the last gun show, so I may make a purchase while I'm up that way. Thanks again for the invite. Have you fired the .338 Lapua Mag? I was reading some interesting stuff on amount of retained energy at longer ranges.

Bravo,
Don't give up the ship. There are alot of us out here. We're just not represented by the liberal media. I'm in if we can ever move forward with it.

Semper Fi!!!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 17:14:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Cory: I suggest NOT putting it in an aerosol bottle and spraying it. If you do, it'll evaporate from the pressure differential, and you'll fog whatever and cool it down mui pronto (lots of water from the air). Cotton rags work fine, just wipe it on. Never tried the little pump bottles, like Windex comes in, but I would think it would work fine as there's not enough pressure to matter. Very well put on the Utah legislature. Guess it COULD work. I'm not blowing anything off, but it kind of feels odd to say "this way men!", and look around to see a "voting invasion" force of 15. My problem with Gonzales wasn't the kid, or where he lived (not my business), it's the fact that the feds violated our rule of law (IS my business!) and don't even care!

As for Project Wyoming: the Birchers called to see if I wanted to come to a first meeting. Of course, when I answered the phone "Bravo here", I got "well, we WERE going to invite you to a meeting, but since you're THAT wack-o with the Wyoming/Cuba Patriot Homeland thing going, please DO NOT come, we don't want to be on any fbi watch lists" LOL LOL. Part of me feels bad for tying up some poor fbi schmucks time when he could be looking for bad guys, but then again, there's LOTS of 'em ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
makes you wonder about folks now-adays, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 18:15:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.23)

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but there have'nt been any polygs in the Utah Legislature (or LDS church for that matter) for oh, about a hundred friggin years. As to polygs in general I think they are a little weird(one wife is enough to drive any sane man nuts), but if they have the balls to protest taxes or anything else, more power to 'em.

With regards to the swivel problems I thought this problem was solved long ago. Someone correct me if I am wrong, it's called a Wichita unitized sling swivel mount. They are hell for stout and(almost) bulletproof.
Steve <browning1911@prodigy.net>
UT, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 20:19:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.238.25)

Steve: we all know the LDS church is against polygs. If you want to meet some though, just let me know where you are, and I'll introduce you to an odd man and his wives. He's very far from alone too. As for the legislature, you're again correct, but missed the intention of the statement. Leavitt (Dixie) should be behind bars for the kind of stuff he does. You think his lack of jail time (or the fact that he has such good contracts) is because he's the father of the governor? And you know where the next comment is coming from, so I'll pass. Now, you can't just drop the bomb of the Wichita sling swivels on us and let it go, I know that McBros uses them, as do the Chandlers, but I've never seen one. You got a site with some pics at least?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
I might be watched by the fbi, but not the irs, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 22:27:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.23)

Bravo,Ken,Lito...........

Thanks for your input. That helps tremendously.

Bravo.......

You can say what ya want about the National Guard I have heard it all believe me. Go to an Active Duty school and get the honor of being the Platoon Sarge and see what type of comments you get when they find out. But I learned the on first go round.........be squared away and dont give them a reason to expect anything!!!!! Then when they ask about your patch see the look on thier faces. Anyhow it wouldnt bother me, a lil heat keeps everyone honest and in the game. And thanks for the offer on the lapping bars. I will probally have them make me a set in the machine shop along with some alignment bars.

Ken.......

Good write up and pics. It dont seem to be a howizter at all. I like the heavier barrels from the "looks" side of it but I prefer to carry my M4 for sure better weight and balance but then again for a different mission. By the way which decel pad did you put on there? I went to the range today to start the break in on my Stealth and even from the prone I seem to get hammered. But it is weired.........It is more toward the point of the shoulder and I swear it feels as though it is way in to my chest. Can there be muscle being stretch at that point creating the effect? You close to FT. Eustis? That place is almost like home to me. Been there for 3 MOS's and working on more.

Lito........

Thanks for the tips on the scope mounting.I never woulr have thought of the plub line. Sinclair has a bubble that mounts in the scope the website said but there were no pic to go with it so I ordered a catalog hopefully it will have one. Which one do you prefer? The model that hangs out from the base seems like it might snag on stuff but the better choice the flip-up model I would be afraid it might shift around.

JR.............

I am with Lito. I too would like more info on bore lapping barrels. Anything to help the break in process.

Thanks Again for a wonderful site.

John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 23:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

John - recoil pad:

That was a Pacmayer recoil pad. Don't remember the part number - don't have the packaging any more. It did add about an inch of length to the length of pull - which I needed.
Im not considered a little guy - but Im here to tell ya and Pablito and Tony Yackowski will bear witness - a .308 can beat the living s**t out of your shoulder. They saw what my shoulder looked like last year @ Storm Mountain. I was shooting Black Hills 175 match... which is probably warm - but not considered hot.
That little 1/4 inch padding on the Rem700PSS doesn't dampen anything - on a side note - that PSS also weighs right @ 11 LBs - which is not alot either.

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 23:46:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Gents,

Looking for a laser rangefinder and a spotting scope to go in my ruck.

Weight and size are considerations, but I want a high quality unit, as well.

Can any of you comment on what you are using, what you recommend, and sources of the same?

Cost is a consideration, but it's secondary to meeting the requirements of spotting and rangefinding to 1000+ yards.

The new Bushnell 1000 yard rangefinder seems to be getting rave reviews...

As always, your comments are solicited.

Wes
(Sometimes the instructor, ALWAYS the student)

P.S. you can reply privately if you want to me at: wsaa@proaxis.com
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 23:52:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.106.198.32)

Ken........

That is about what my stealth weighs. I have been thinkning of adding weight to the buttstock internalyl like Pablito I believe it was mentioning. I think I seen the pad you are talking about on Brownells it is like 32.50 but they said something about black leather so I wanted to talk to them prior to ordering. I am going to Bass Pro Shop in the marnin and seeing if they have them in stock so I can get it mounted.

John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@home.com>
Springfield, MO, USA - Saturday, September 30, 2000 at 23:57:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.255.84)

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