August 1999

Rod Ryan, Just spent three days coaching one of your students. I wont use his name, but he came to us one hell of a shot. You do good work. I cant wait and go to your course. Guys I have been an instructor for a while and I will spend my money to go to Storm so what does that tell you about the instruction.

Undude/Still in New Mexico
MikeM <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:31:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.34.154) 

1. Has anyone ever used a telescope, like a Celestron, for spotting at long ranges?

2. Would it be advisable to find someone to help on determining the the overall length setup when I start loading? A guy at the range started talking way over my head about overall length today. Was discussing the OAL of the case versus the OAL of the assembled round. Do I need a gauge, etc. What model?

3. Went to range today. It seemed as the temp got up to about 100, it felt like the rounds were a little tight when chambering. Rounds were kept on the bench, out of the sun. Any comments?

4. Cleaning brushes........BSC(Before Sniper Country) I generally used wire brushes that were one size larger than the caliber I was cleaning. In Plaster's book I think I read that the service uses 45cal brushes on 30cal. Recently bought brushes that matched the calibers being cleaned and they don't feel tight enough. Do you guys oversize your brushes?

5. On chamber cleaning....Concerned that I'm not getting the chamber cleaned properly. Has anyone used the Sinclair chamber cleaning tool? Do you use solvents or just Breakfree?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:37:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.186) 

Rifles used were AT C-24's and Norma 168 Moly. Rod and I used M3LR's and ANdy and Wendy used a Bushnell Tactical. The 1/4 moa adjustments are superior for the match but I did score for a competitor that had a "0" for one match due to being out 360 deg on elevation on his 1/4 moa target turrets. (I and others have warned many of you on this fact for a long time).

I picked up my new Armament Tech C-24 that I shot in the competition the day before the match. Andy had zero's for it already (spin drift not withstanding) and my zero's tracked with Andy's. Dudes, I am not blowing smoke up anyones ass here but it is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot. Andy really has something here. Up to this point the most tack driving rifle I had was a specially prepared M40A1 w/Weaver T-10. It was hand stroked by the 2112's and had handloads prepared by the ammo techs at Quantico. It was a tack driver also but this gun gets the nod, AND ITS MINE I TELL YOU, ALL MINE!!!!! Ooops, sorry.

Jeff, You're right about it being a small world. I started shooting with Andy 4 years ago and now we import his rifles. I've been very lucky. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Gooch out
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:45:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163) 

On the cleaning brushes. A good buddy of mine who's a gunsmith uses the cyclone brushes. Looks like loops of wire in a spral pattern. He swears by em, says they don't hurt the barrel, and gets em cleaner.

As a side note to all, if you want to get your gun *COMPLETELY* clean of carbon, copper, ect..? Go to your mechanick and beg him to let you soak your action/ barrel (DO NOT GET THE WOOD IN THIS STUFF) in his parts washing tank. Doesn't hurt the finish, takes off all the gunk, and dries completely away REALLY fast. just oil it well after it dries, and it will damn near squeek.
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Life is heat, Maryland, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 01:01:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15) 

Question

Stock removal....Can a stock be removed and reinstalled, properly re-torqued of course, and not drastically effect zero? Similar to removal of scope and coming back to 1/2 moa.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 02:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.71) 

Pat L
I will be in Wyoming on Wed night also. Lets try to get togeather at the bar in the motel at the motor lodge where they have the meeting.

Gooch,
Way to go!! Good to have you back.

Rick B,
Hey Bud, long time on hear, where you been hiding?? We had a good match in Nebraska, we got busted on the stock, but after crawling on my belly like a snake for 2 hrs in the heat I really didn't giv e a shit(HA) This sniper stuff is really a young mans game. After the stalk we were trying to get up enough energy to go shower up before supper and here comes a couple of the "Baby Snipers" in jogging shorts going out for a run!!! We decide right then and there we were definatly to old for this game. The info I got from you was a great help I did decent on the 200 and 300 yard movers but I think I led the 600 yard to far. It was a crap shoot with the 260 on those anyway but it really came on strong in the 600 plus shooting esp in the wind that we had down there. Thanks again for all your help I just wish there was someway to repay you for it.

Bruce,
I have the same problem with the LR as you do. I have two in fact and they both do it . If the target is clear at 100 then I have a problem with the cross hairs following my eye if I adjust it so the cross hairs stay on target then the target is fuzzy. Its not my eyes either because neither my 4.5x14 or my 6.5x20 do it and I have shot them all side by side . I finally gave up on it and I have learned to live with it because I love it for the long range shooting and it seems to only bother at 100 yards.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:17:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.194) 

Thanks for the correction,seems the Russian's are closer to the correct figure than the West,should have paid attention to detail,like 2TTR.Close enough for Gov't work.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:41:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.229) 

Is there a course or material on range estimation for civillians. Is it nessary to use a mildot scope? I currently own a luepold 4.5x14, duplex. Took a laser range finder hog hunting but the batteries petered out and the backups were bad too. Still got my hog, but thought it would wise to get serious about ranging. Having trouble past 400 yds. this info would also be helpful i p-dog and antelope shooting that I do a lot of.

Comment:
Check out the choate Varmint stock. Lighter than the Sniper stock and looks better to boot. Mount the sling studs on the left side and you are ready to go.( yes I hunt constantly with this rig)

Thanks
Larry.
Larry <tmhorn@hotmail.com>
the sticks, okla., USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.155.251.112) 

Bortz out -
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
holding my umbrella waiting for falling bullets in, IL, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:53:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.27) 

Pardon me for bragging; but my step-son(damn I hate that word), my son, took the first entrance exam for the Missouri Highway Patrol. Out of 4500 applicants they will only take 60 for their March 2000 class. Any tips on what he needs to know or do would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 05:55:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.216.204.197) 

On the vertical bullet thing: The air resistance on a body moving in air is a function of the square of the velocity, meaning that doubling the speed quadruples the drag (at least for stuff below Mach 0.9 or so). There is also significant drag above Mach 1. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the only forces acting on it are gravity and air resistance (and gyroscopic effects, spin drift forces, rotation of the earth, solar wind, and myriad other minor forces. Nitpickers will be fed to the "Master Sniper"). Anyway, the bullet drops subsonic in the first thousand yards or so, then the velocity continues to drop until the bullet has a zero vertical velocity.

The bullet then accelerates downward because of gravity until the force exerted by gravity equals the air resistance of the bullet. The force of gravity is a function of the mass (read weight) of the bullet and the air resistance is a function of the size and shape of the bullet. Of two identical bullets made of different materials, the denser material. such as gold, tungsten, or uranium, will have a higher terminal velocity because the gravity force is higher and teh air resistance is identical at any given speed. From what I recall, lead bullets have a terminal velocity between 200 and 300 fps, but I may be way off. Humans have a terminal velocity of ~125 mph in the classic "AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!" position, but skydivers can increase it to over 175 mph by tucking their arms and legs and diving (reducing air resistance). In conclusion (finally!), one of the armed services tried shooting vertically and found that the bullets impacted, but did not fully penetrate the 2x4s the raft was made of. Make mine a Kevlar umbrella please.

On Palma Sights - The CMP just sold off a bunch of new but stored H&R M12s (single shot match 22's) with the Redfield Palma and front Olympic sights. Price was $300. Mine came with '82 vintage sights in their original sealed foil.

For hunting bullets, I prefer the 130 gr Ballistic tips in .270 Win. Of the last thirteen deer I's taken with it, three have run and for less than 30 yards. The bullets penetrate one side, then blow up and the lungs are poured out when field dressing. Since there is no exit wound, tracking is a pain, but meat is also not damaged. Shots were between 40 and 200 yards.

No, I'm not a sniper or a sniper wannabee. If I were, how did I end up with a 134-1x, 120, 112, and 134 on a 80 round 600 yard match yesterday? (And those are some big honkin targets, too!) Then again, I was using a service M1 with W-W 147 gr bulk bullets over 47.5 grains of H4895 without a shooting jacket. I think I should maybe switch to Sierra 168's. Anybody know of a good starting load for those with H4895 - most books only cover IMR4895.

Thanks for the web site. Mostly good folks here, despite the occasional tiff. What's with the sheep? Next thing I know, the board will be full of those sheep drawings, similar to the ones of cows using characters.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.um,n.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 05:57:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.23.103) 

Pat, on your scope dificulty sounds like your reticle might be a tad out of focus. If your target is sharp but the reticle is out slightly you will have parallax and this is amplified the closer you are to the target.

Range estimation classes. We at Storm Mountain run a series of weekend classes called "Long Range Rifle". Its sniper training minus the stalking, missions etc. Check out www.stormmountain.com for more info and a schedule.

I want my baby back, baby back, baby back...ribs. (Saw "The spy that shagged me" in Canada. Funny flick.)

Gooch has left the planet!!!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 06:45:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.173) 

I grabbed a Dewey cleaning rod - and perhaps its me being naive or overprotective about my new baby but has anyone seen the Pointed brass tip that comes with that thing? Its long and knurled and damn rough looking. The brass was also flaking off on the one I received. I'll be damed if this thing is coming anywhere near my rifling... scarry!

----

To Gooch and the fantastic four - Congratulations on your triumph! Great stuff! Winning comps like that over and over must be a source of immense well-earned pride.

Bulk: Mike can be reached at mike@tacticalintervention.com or tactical@tacticalintervention.com and some smartass even made it so that he could be reached at: dontplaywiththeharddriveanymore@tacticalintervention.com. Yes he blew his aol out of the water a few days back (no great loss imho :-) He will however probably not respond till late Sunday or Monday as he is away form his POP accouint and I am scared to teach him shell mail. (*snicker*)

Larry: If I am reading their webpage correctly - US optics does do enhancement work on Leo scopes. On range finding... I am about to learn this myself, but that thar Undude turned me on to the Mil Dot master and it looks like it will make it 200 times easier. I too am a bit aprehensive of this part of this dicipline and I looked into the options - hard. The only no-math/no mind ranging scope I found asside from ART scopes and a soviet piece of junk, was the Sheapherd and I was warned time and again to stay away from that. Instead I got a leo with mills and am going to beat my mathphobic head into a rock till I learn it and learn it right.

All: The book Term Limits has been mentioned a few times. DM turned me on to it 2 weeks back and its a great read. It was as engrossing to me as the old Tom Clancy.

Too long as usual....
JT - Tactical Intervention Webmaster & Proud FNG <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 10:06:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61) 

Have not had a chance to call or write but, thanks. You know what for.

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 13:32:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.158) 

lot´s of concrete !

T
"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 14:20:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.43) 

Thanks for the feedback on the match.

Would it be too much to get you to once again expound on the subject of 1/4 MOA vs. the Loop-hole "BDC" system for UKD shooters. My frail and half senile old mind forgot to copy to disk..........

Would this be "Minute of Torso"?

code named "Chao Team 1-2" when in Wash, D.C. area ;-)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 14:28:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.32) 

http://thyme.aspire.net/darwin.html

Problem is that those winners might have bred before they were removed.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 14:55:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.38) 

I know the new Remington .300 Ultra Hype Magnum is out in the marketplace now, do any of our visitors have one of these beasts yet? If so, how well does it work?

I read Lame Simpson's review on it in "Shooting Times" and it seems the initial factory loadings with IMR 7828 weren't living up to expected performance figures.

Anyone?

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, New Scotland, Canada - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:27:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.60.19) 

I am trying to get tooled up to start Parkerizing and have the bead blast cabinet and air compressor to drive it and sources for chemicals and such. The stumbling block is that I dont want to cough up 130-some odd dollars to Brownells for a stainless steel park tank. Anybody out there have any alternative suggestions?

Also, I am using the 1" IOR QD rings with my 40mm 3x14 AO Vari-X II on my 700P, and I was suprised at how high the scope ended up over the rifle: looks like these rings would work nicely with a 50mm scope. The cheek pad on the Eagle pouch helps a lit but the rige is still less than ideal, IMHO. Any specific recomendations on comperable rings that are a bit lower?

700P "Outrage" update: Crowning tool set from Brownells has arrived and I have recut the crown to factory-looking specs, with an 11 degree crown and a 45 degree bevel at the muzzle apeture. Its certainly a huge improvement but the 45 degree cutter chatters slightly when driven by hand no matter what technique is used. Should I try to clean this up by getting the power drive adaptor for the cutter set (use with a drill or electric screwdriver), lapp the chatter marks out or simply cut the face of the barrel on back with the 11 degree cutter and eliminate the 45 degree bevel entirely?

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:36:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.250) 

I don't have one yet, BUT the case design, volume, and of course that loved by all Remington action have serious potential.
Too rip off Waynes World "I WILL HAVE THAT GUN......."

I posted a few weeks ago, that quite a few writers have pooh-poohed it, but that also occured with the .260 Rem. This has been proven wrong by Mr Bullet, TorF, Jeff A. and a couple others.
In fact Pats nearly as bad about the .260 as I am with Varget, Of course, HE DOES USE VARGET!

Time will tell all,

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:44:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.81) 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:51:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10) 

So only two of you do math when mil-ranging and the rest of you rely on somebody elses printed material?What about you Poomah,what do you use?Instinct?
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 18:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.77) 

To all the folks that helped with the parallax problem..
THANKS!!!
You guys are the best..

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 18:37:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.117.8) 

On the stainless tank- go to a couple of scrap yards (read junk yards, not he car types though) and look for an old stainless steel sink basin, some of em even have an attached work area. Most were made a LONG while back for ppl to use in workshops or in greenhouses/gardens. My granmother had one, nad my dad now uses it in his garage (he's an auto mechanic) for washing his hands, parts, letting chemicaly treated parts dry, ect... Practically indestructale. And you can get your local metalshop to set the drain up to work how you want.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
No where, Maryland, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 20:24:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Bruce E
I have to agree with you on the Choate.. I've never considered this, or had this happen to me either, but it is something to consider.
I would like to add that the Choate isn't all that bad a stock. It is heavy, but for me it's a good fit. The extra weight really tames the recoil which is a plus for me after my shoulder surgery. I'm gonna add the 2+ pounds of extra weight in the handle grip to help out further. This stock and a factory Rem 700 BDL and I'm shooting .5 MOA and better groups. I'm sure it would do better with a better shooter behind the scope. As for the "monopod" in the back, well I never use it.. I just sand bag and go.. For me it's quicker.
As for mil-ranging, I don't think you can beat the Mil-Dot Master for speed and I think it's formulas are fairly proven. I would trust it over a calculator anyday.

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 20:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.117.8)

As far as patterns for facew camo, it is highly subject to opinion, but you want to break up tyhe natural facial shadowing. there is a fairly good article on this site on the topic. Also, yes, if your wrists are exposed, you should camo them. Thre should be no skin showing, or as little as absolutelly possible. As for observing without notice, I have personally hidden myself in a stand of briars, that offered me good observation, and had a group of guys on patrol walk about 3 yards by me, and miss me. This was during a paintball type game. Muzzle flash can be reduced by having the rifle muzzle back a bit from concealing features, so that the window of observation to the flash is ghreatly diminished. At even 50 yards, it would require direct observation of the flash to see it. Keep in mind this is all IMHO, and my observations. Some of you guys a bit more experienced in this area care to pick me apart? (actually I would welcome the criticism)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
It is *FINALLY* raining in, Maryland, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 20:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Bruce H.
Never shoot through tall grass. Anything the bullet hits hill deflect it unpredictably. I heard a story of a benchrester who hit a single blade of grass and the bullet made a perfect keyhole in the target.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 21:22:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.7.114)

Actually, I don't do the math each time, no need to. Make a little card of the essential items, and some frequently-used settings. Then tape it to the stock. Don't use a bright white index card, and if you make it nice enough, go ahead and laminate it.

Then, use your head and double-check it, make sure that it makes sense.

L
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:06:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.249.22)

Bruce H:
Darken your higher points when camoing up. Don't do the goody-goody poster-boy job with razor sharp divisions in the different colors, it won't show up; instead think of a mudpack, with darker colors on the higher points such as your chin, nose, and cheekbones; but don't be symmetrical.

If your wrists are showing, camo them or cover them up. In cooler weather, I took old green socks and cut finger holes in the toes, and wore them under gloves/sleeves. That way, everything between the cuff and the glove is covered, w/o having camo paint getting all over your watch, etc. You might try covering at least part of a wrist with one of those olive-drab watch covers.

L

Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.249.22)

Target dimension in inches x 27.8/mils measured = distance (yards)
Target dimension in inches x 25.4/mils measured = distance (meters)

The reason the mildot master's formula works is that all the MM really is is a slide rule with bells and wistles. It is faster than a calculator and functionally more accurate since when all of the variables are plugged in you can confirm all of the values of the variables at a glance. You can't do that on a calculator and this leads to mistakes sometimes.

On the 1/4 moa vs tactical scope "BDC" thing. In tactical shooting the "BDC" is better because we are not popping "V" rings in real life. A shooter can hold off slightly for medula shots if he needs to up close with a tac turret system. The micrometer type turret scales on target scopes have messed with even experienced shooters under stress. I have seen at least 2 people take cold bore shots with thier elevation turrets 1 revolution/360 deg too high. Most tactical turret systems (M3A/M3LR) will not make more than 1 complete revolution to prevent this.

I'm not totally against the 1/4 moa turrets, just be forwarned that you realy need to learn how to read them and record data with them.

Don't get too riled about camouflage patterns. Just tone down the face with colors that match the surroundings and lighten the low points (eye sockets) and darken the high points (cheek bones/chin) of the face.

Out here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.180)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
frustrated in, Maryland, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 00:15:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Pete R - On the 1/4 moa turrets, I wouldn't waste my money on a turret that changes the strike of the bullet at 100 less than the diameter of the bullet and only 2 inches at 800. When ARE you zeroed? That is the problem, and I have seen guys fire untold wated rounds thinking they need just one more click when in reality it was just their normal group size. The Palma Team went to 1/2 moa turrets on their sights for that very reason and the that it takes too many "clicks" with too big of a chance of screwing a shot. OFF the soap box now, seen too many screw ups as Gooch noted! On the 1 moa "BDC" (Not really one but what the hey) of the M3, if you are out on the zero, zero high that .5 moa, there are features below the aim point on the noggin that do not exist above.

Bolt - You mentioned (shudder) breakfree. I would not let Breakfree anywhere near one of my weapons. Use normal carbon solvents (Shooter's Choice, Hoppe's, etc,) Breakfree really only "floats" carbon away and does a piss poor job of disolving it. It then leaves a residue after the vehicle has evaporated.

Chris - Even our military snipers will argue until blue in the face over the 3.375 thing, it is ingrained from those dam compasses! Seems only the civies here on the Roster know the truth. Yes Gooch you're a civie now too!

Pat - Thanks for the kind words, 600 movers are a pain since it is possible to require a hold BEHIND the target to hit it when the target speed and wind all conspire to cause a problem!

On Ghillie suits and camo - Ghillie Suits are hot and will cause a problem. Try out the long underwear before you go into the woods with the stuff on. You may find that you will have sweat up a storm and then can't dry out with all that gear on. Use a strap to hold down the shirt, it will ride up if you must crawl out of a bad spot backwards. Also attach the sleeves with loops so that they go around your thumb or finger for crawling, unattach for shooting. And attach a loop to the cuffs of the trousers for attachment to the boot laces when crawling to prevent the legs from riding up. Camo ALL skin that is exposed or MAY be exposed. Remember you may have to remove the top to attach new natural camo while on a stalk and this has the potential for exposing your lilly white skin. I'm lucky in that mine is old and wrinkly, not much shine there! As master Gooch stated, use blotches and stay away from that movie crap, it only makes you stand out more.

Stalk - the normal distance is classified as 200 meters for a shot without detection. Muzzle flash is not your worry, muzzle Blast is the problem is the grass. You need to set yourself in a position that afords stand off from a covering piece of terrain of vegetation that will not be effected by the blast due to the distance from the weapon to the item. After the shot the situation dictates your action. If you have stirrd up a hornets nest and the world is ut looking, your FFP will NOT hide you as shown in the Sniper movie. You best get into a move out mode with a well concealed escape route already picked out. Remember, the stalk is in and out. Not just in, take a shot and walk out. You must escape or it is a one time mission, those suck.

Crap, this is way too long and I do appologize. If you have more questions then give me an email and I will try to answer your questions. Sorry Sarge!

Rick
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 00:36:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)

I onts me one of them AN/PVS-9. That is SEXY!!!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 00:41:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.51)

SHIT.

al o. Knights Sword.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Secret City, Ohio, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.81)

I'm a little confused about your comment about Varget...I mean I was under the impression that EVERYONE used Varget.Don't they ? It even makes a great seasoning when I run out of pepper when making moose burgers.

About the .300 Ultra Yawn.Yup... it's probably going to develope a cult following just like the .260 Remington.I'm just curious just how far a RELOADER (sorry Puma)can take this cartridge since its a foregone conclusion Remington is going to sandbag the loads for liability and safety concerns.I'm betting there's gotta be another easy 200-250 fps. just waiting to be tapped over and above Remington's published velocities.

Bruce E: Thanks for the compliments on the stock review.I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I tried the adjustment screw on the bags as well and I just couldn't seem to make it work properly for me or feel totally comfortable with it.However, I'm pleased to hear you made it work for you.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.61)

Bolt...
The nuts should be on the left side, because you are moving your hand on, in, and around the right side, and you need the space, clearence, and don't want to cut up your knuckles...

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.58)

RTORRES. Here is the information on TEXAS BRIGADE ARMORY.
906 MIDDLE RUN
DUNCANVILLE TX 75137
972 298-7048

Gooch.Congratulate on your win.Did you see Charlie Blackwell from Texas.He went up with the All Guard Team.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC@CIRIS.NET>
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 02:46:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.51.228.89)

When I first started hunting long range 11yrs. ago we started out with Celestron spotting scopes...The ones we have are 20x-50mm,...... Now you afto understand we take our spotting scopes and mount them in to a bracket so they are basically a BIG pair of bino's but much much better.....and heavier......The Celestrons are in my opinion as good as any spotting scopes in the same price range.....

This outfit Eagle optics offers the Celestron Ultima 80 Spotting scope with a 80mm obj.lens for $298.00 and 25x eyepiece for $49.00, 50x eyepiece for$88.00 and 20-60x eyepiece for $168.00 (97 price sheet) all weather proof....So it might be worth checking out....

If you are looking for a really good tripod they sell Bogens, and can get any that are made......If you are not familiar with this name, go to your local camera shop and ask them, they are one of the best on the market,......and are highly adjustable.....as a matter of fact they make one that will hold 44.5lbs is adj. to 30" and only weights 10# I am thing of getting one and making portable shooting rest that is highly adjustable for long range hunting .....a sort of return to battery rest that dosn't weight as much as a VW.....we pack every thing into where we hunt so weight is a major consideration.........

Hope this helps_______________BigGunn___________________
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn.Country, Pa., USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

Quickbow,
On the Colt mags try www.dennysshooters.com or Dennys Shooters Supply 1-800-747-3845. Good Shooting
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
OR, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:55:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.2)

I have been getting very good results with 27 grains of varget in .223 military cases with 55 grain FMJ out to 300yrds. waiting for some 69grainers to come in to try also.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:57:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.10)

Also, for those that can laugh at how we sometimes perform on this site, I have just read Major H. Heskith-Prichards "Sniping in France" written soon after WW1. He cites spindrift for the .303 cartridge.
Might have to go to the archive and re-read that stuff.

.............................................................
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
deep south - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:59:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Actually if we judge the dimension of the target in mm we just divide by the number of mils for distance in meters right?

Darryl - Spin drift? JFC! I take my rifle to the range and establish zero's at hundred yard intervals from 100-1000 yards. It is a freak of nature that there is absolutly no wind that day. I notice that at 1000 yards I have to dial in 1/2 moa of left windage to keep my group centered. Is it spin drift, a cant in the scope, a cant in my position, bad trigger control, unequal pressure in my grip hand, stock weld or support hand? Or maybe it is because of the angle of the sun or the fact that I laced my boots left over right instead of right over left. Who really cares? For all practical purposes as long as I consistantly do the same thing when I shoot I will hit my mark under the same conditions. If I need 39 minutes of elevation and 1/2 moa (L) wind @72 degrees, at a barometric pressure of 29.1, with 60% humidity, no wind, yada yada yada... I will need the same dope the next time I go out under the same conditions UNLESS I CHANGE SOMETHING IN MY FIRING TECHNIQUE. THe spin drift won't change in all practicality unless the rpm's of the round changes drasticaly or the laws of physics take a 180 degree turn overnight.

Pay attention to the fundamentals, establish solid zero's on a known distance range and develop consistency in your technique. Screw all of the artillery shit. Do these things exist? Sure they do, but correcting for spin drift is like correcting for drag deceleration. Its automatically taken care of when you establish zeros at specific distances.

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 04:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

Comments on the most suitable barrel crown for a tactical rifle. I will be crowning my new Shilen barrel for my .308 Rem 700 and am looking for ideas. 11 degree target crown is popular, however a recessed target crown seems more tolerant to abuse in the field. What if any, are the pros/cons of the various crowns. Thanks.

Mike S
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
Southern, Komifornia, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 05:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.149)

To re-iterate, I wrote to all those with a sense of humour, especially about past heated topics. I was not trying to re-open the topic, which should not be a problem anyway.

As a point of fact I was interested to note that the issue was noted by the pre-eminent Brit sniper Heskith-Prichard. I thought others may also be similarly interested. Relax, take a deep breath.

AHHHHHHH I cant help it>>>>>>> the book says adjust 1/2 in against direction of barrel twist for every 100 yards for .303

..................................................................

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 06:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Anyone here use a Ruger .270Win?

Whats spindrift?

Mike
M. Kroger <Kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 06:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Nice to read the crowning info. Looked at all my Remingtons and none of them have a noticable crown, not even the PSS. Hell my AK has more of a crown. Started watching Plaster's video yesterday and it looks like the Robar has a recess and a heavy crown. What is the proper corwn for these long range weapons? Didn't read an answer to the lapping the crown question.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 11:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Target crowns seem to be 45 degrees but I think it is kind of a variable depending on a lot of things just put a good smooth grind at the end of those riflings and it will probably shoot for you.
Someone yesterday mentioned the tools chattering and that is a problem
but I don't know if you are using a common brace as opposed to power drills and the handles that come with it. But if not go to a common carpenter's brace and back off the pressure and that won't happen.
I get laughed out of the room for this one but a cone shaped dremmel tool bit will do the job if you take your time and don't over grind it.
Those nuts should be on the left side because when your making a movie the camera likes to shoot snipers from that side. In the movies you adjust your windage and elevation with those nuts. I saw one do it the other day.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 12:33:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Pablito,
Got your e.mail and when I get a cloudy evening I will give it a shot and let you know how it comes out. If it works the beers on me!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 13:16:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Finally had a chance to work with Mike Miller. It was a real pleasure to have someone around that could not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. He is an excellent instructor and my students not only enjoyed him but learned from someone whose experience shows. He has an uncanny ability to make range estimations and corrections. He is just sick enough to be fun.

I also worked with his slings and mounted them on my FN. After I figured out how not to hang myself, I found they are preferrable to anything else I have used and superior to what I have been currently recommending. They are worth a hell of lot more than he charges.

BTW, the man can shoot. 3.75" at 600 yards under field conditions is good in my book anyway. He was also able to pick up my FN with NATO loads and hit a 20" disk at 750 yards with open sights. I did it, but it was my rifle. I'd take this guy on a mission anywhere, preferrably as point as he is a lot bigger than me and I can hide behind him:-) We had some great arguments about Wac0 and Ruby Ridge, the ATF and our favorite people, the FBI while we were crawling through the brush murdering rural rats (prairie dogs). Good men can disagree and remain great friends. A lesson that seem to be often forgotten here on the site at times.

I use prairie dog hunts as it allows my students to put their stalking and shooting skills to work on live targets. Makes it all come together for them.

The T.R.G.T. data books and Mildot Masters are absolutely the way to go. I have to try and weasel a wet weather pen out of Butter Bar to see how that works. I have used a variety of databooks over the years and this one is absolutely superior, hands down. Now, if they would come out with as good information for duplex reticles as for the mildot, that would be impressive. Some of us still know how to shoot with a real scope:-)

I have already commented on the Slope Doper from Depity Dave. My students must have one of these as we definitely have high angle shots in this country.

The course leader for Juliet 26 was a former 82nd Airborne trooper and has been through SMTC. He is one hell of a shooter. I have trained lots of shooters in the past 30 years and this guy has world class capability. SMTC did an excellent job with this guy. My respects to the SMTC staff.

Well boys, its off to torture a new group of students.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
AZ&NM, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 13:38:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.34.162)

Sarge & EMT-B/P's at S/C:

What is current protocol for a snake bite? Elevate wound above heart/ ice pack it, and evacuate to hospital? (Veterinarian for Al O?)

Are them venom-jac "Extractors" worth the price, or plain vanilla snake bite kits? I'm putting together my "kit" for October and want to plan for worst case scenarios.

Bill R.
How did you kill the rattler, Ninja Death Touch? Shot cartridge? or is it "classified" :-)

Al,

Looks like Saturday nite, instead of Friday as per tele-con regarding the short-timer, you cheee-chako you!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 14:43:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

Snake bite kits; I recommend the spark plug trick and then wait to see if it is a "loaded" bite and if so then shoot yourself.
If your out of ammo the extractor may help some. It's better than nothing but the current recommendation I think is keep it cold and get to a doctor so he can shoot you.

James; Hope you got the guy from the Left coast to cant his rifle a little to the right. I know you did your best! Did you tell him about Red Necks "being people" too.

Ok! So you guys don't want to post your kills! Gee Whiz. How about lets just count bullet holes! You don't even have to tell how you got em! I'll be your huckleberry! I've got 5. Come on lets make this a Real Combat Site! JEE's Forgive me already it's monday on the great plains!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 15:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

The 11 deg crowns are great for the bench rest 6mm ppc guy. They are not necessary on a tactical rifle. The 11 deg crown can make it more difficult to clean when pulling a brush or a patch of sweets back though the barrel. The 45 deg crown is much better for general use. I dont like to use power tools when I recrown. I perfer to lap instead of cut or lap after I cut. I like to use the ball grinders for dremmel tools in a tap wench and slowly lap in a nice crown by hand. It takes me about 1/2 hour. Dont use the cheap dremmel tools bits from the hardware store. The gritt will break off and inbead in the barrel crown. I use bits that brownels sells. I like the balls because I dont have to keep them prefectly parallel to the bore. I have done a few old Grands this way and they turn out very nice. Grand crowns are usually pretty bad because the GIs used steel rods and you have to cleaned them from the muzzel. I just checked two pss crowns(because of commets on the roster), they sucked. I Never thought of checking crowns on new rifles before. I redid them both and they turned out nice. Thank you guys.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 15:49:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.145.85)

When you say kills are you talking about a situation where you shoot at “something” and walk over to find a dead tango, shoot a guy in the back as he is running away from you or shoot someone of equal talent and motivation who is trying to kill you?
I don’t think people should get full credit for kills such as mothers holding assault babies.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
in the "Deadly" heat of Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

The 3 old 40-XB's and XBBR's have lathe cut 45 degree crowns...
The new 40-XB's and 40-XBBR, and the M70/V's have dish crowns (like a shallow saucer) and at the bore, the angle is 89-90 degrees.
The M70/Sharpshooters have step crowns... straight across 1/3rd of the face, a small 45 degree step, and then straight across to the bore.

I don't think it matters much... all of these guns are benchrest, or very good match grade, and the crowns are very different.
As long as the crown is even, clean, and un-dented, it probably makes no difference.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:05:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.43)

On the Mildot Master. They also make a metric slide which allows all metric input and range determination.

Darryl. Yanking my chain are you? Oh behave... I am developing a device called the spin drift master. WHen it is done I will submit it to SC for free distribution.

Someone had a question about the statement I made re: which side to put the mounting nuts on the Mk4 bases. In the Mike Lau book I stated that I prefered to have the nuts on the right side of the M24 because I had seen students grrr the rear palma sight base when messing with the scope mount mounting nuts. (Some students can be real neanderthals with issue gear) If your rifle doesnt have a rear palma base as with the M24 it aint a problem.

By the way. My AT1 C-24 has the HS Precision detachable box mag on it. I normally single load but chose to use the magazine in a falling plate match and it worked like a charm. The magazine went in and out smoothly and had no feeding problems. The mag release is in inside of the trigger guard (where it should be) and I am led to believe that it fits on any Remington 700 stock (Is this right JR?). A big thumbs up to HS!

Out here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, West by Gawd, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:25:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)

No matter what the situation, a hospital is very necessary, even with the extractor. If you get to the hospital and get the antnivenom you are still going to be at risk. The antivenom will genereally keep you from dying but the lasting effects can be devastating, paralysis and blindness are not uncommon.

Remember that a snake does not want to bite you so don't encnourage it. If you see one, freeze. Make sure the snake has an escape route, and it will use it.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:34:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.6.64)

Snake bite..........From 4th edition "Emergency Care in the Streets"
1. Get patient away from snake
2. Calm and reassure patient (damn that will never happen with you guys)
3. Remove all constricting items, rings, watches, shoes, etc. You're gonna swell up!
4. Keep victim recumbant, for those of you in Rio Linda that means lying down, with head and upper body slightly elevated.
5. Says to splint in a dependent position below the level of the heart. Mainly, keep the bite below the heart and don't let the patient move the extremity.
6. Do not let the patient move, walk or exert himself
7. Do not give anything by mouth, not even Crown Royal
8. Haul ass to the hospital. Try to describe the snake since you have hemo and neuro toxic critters. Call ahead to the hospital if you can with the info. so they can get the juice ready.

Incision and suction (close your ears Al.O.)as well as ice are no longer indorsed in most places. Infection from the incision and tissue damage from the ice have in some cases done more harm than just getting to the hospital.

REMEMBER some people are snake identity challenged. The snake that bites you may not be poisonous! He may just be giving you a love peck. Clean with hydrogen peroxide and add neosporin.

Dr. Bolt out

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:48:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

To Mike / the Un Dude: Glad to have met you. With the signal / noise ratio here on SC moving in an unfavorable direction, its good to meet a guy who can back up what he says. I look forward to trying out your sling on my Model 70.

The memory of the pre dawn trek to spot and engage small furry indigenous destroyers of the local environment will stay with me for a long time. Look forward to doing it again on your next visit.

Out

Bob
Bob Hodge <bhodge@Primenet.Com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 17:20:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.138.230.83)

When you develop your "Spin-dot master", take into account that in Mass, New York, Konnecticut, New Jersey, and Kalifornia, the bullets spin to the left...

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 17:36:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.43)

On the 11 deg crown bit, most benchresters that I know don't find it a problem in cleaning, since they don't pull the patch or brush back thru the barrel to begin with. Just push thru, remove, cover, pull back, re-apply and go again. Takes quite some time, as you know, but for the 6mm PPC crowd, it's the only way to go.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 18:56:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.31.5.67)

It arrived today............................

a most sinister Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Al O. - BE VERY AFRAID!, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 19:03:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.53)

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 19:08:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.140)

Guys acting as scorer for Rod and Gooch in Canada last week I had a chance to watch how they operate, very impressive. Discussions on hardware are great but it seems to me that more time on the site needs to be spent on procedures and communication between the spotter and
shooter. They showed myself and my brother(oh ya we were the pair with 360 degrees too much evolution)how to operate as a team effectively when things are going right, but more importantly how to react when things go wrong. Thanks for the free lesson guys, hope to see you in Ottawa next year.

Yours Aye,
Rick M
Rick Mountford <Rick_Mountford@bigfoot.com>
Ottawa, Ont, Canada - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 20:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.103.36.183)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 20:25:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.224)

Well after long deliberation and reading as much as I could on things. (Also asking guys like you tons of stupid questions and bugging the shit out of Mike) we decided on a new Winchester Model 70 Varmiter with a 26 inch stainless barrel. Of course it is a .308.

It was very tough choosing between the Winchester and the Remington, but as of late I have heard enough about the quality concerns with Rem that it made a difference in my choice. In addition Mike was with me when I bought it (thanks Mike) and he took a long look at the Winchester and he reccomended it as a good rifle as well.

In the end it was a coin flip type decision when I was standing there... both rifles were just about equal I guess... so it came down to the one that felt the best for me - and that was the Winchester hands down.

As for the scope I took nearly everyones reccomendation and bought a Leo. I am gonna hate myself for doing this once it comes time to do the ranging drills. Specifically I got a Vari-X III - 3.5 to 10 long range M1 Matte Multicoat 4 with 3/4 Mll dot. (uh yes I was using crib notes just now)

Mounts are dual doves by leo. Bipod by Harris... and of course one of Mike's rappelling harness / rifle slings.

When the Tactical Intervention website opens (hopefully by Saturday latest) You'll be able to see the rifle pictured in the section titled "Onlinr manual for the Model 2 rifle sling" as I used it for the close-up sling demonstration photos.

I have yet to fire it - but am concerned only about one thing. I have chambered a couple of rounds and upon ejection I noted that there are some 'rubbing marks' on the rear of the cartridge case over the headstamp. Hoping this isn't a problem.

Anyhow it's a beautiful rifle and the stock fits me 3 times better than the PSS did. It has the nice thick forestock but does not have the palm swell that my little hands rebelled against on the pss.

Thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

JT - Mike's Nightmare Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 21:10:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Oh and as for the combo harness/rapelling sling. Thats a JOKE. Do not even THINK about using the sling for anything but using as a rifle sling.
JT - TIS Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 21:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Out

Bob
Bob Hodge <bhodge@Primenet.Com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 21:50:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.138.230.83)

Bob Hodge, I also enjoyed shooting with you. For those of you that dont know Bod is an AI for James Jarrett. Bob does not shoot his mouth off much but is a master with a rifle. But god Bob, the last time I mentioned Prarie Dogs on here I was attacked by men with purses. I do agree that is a lot of fun and I look forward to shooting with you again.

Mr. Jarrett, I am glad we could disagree and still be friends. You remind me of my brother we tend to disagree alot also. I dont know whats wrong with me maybe you are right it might be the water. As to me being sick. It helps in my profession. If you cant laugh at it why do it. Lots of folks take themselves far to serious. Not me I am just a cop that likes to shoot. My reading the wind, I am told by my other half, comes from spreading so much of it around. I had a great time, see you in the spring.

Slings, I have several orders here and one I forgot to ship to Al before I left. I am sorry Al, it wont happen again.

Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 22:47:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.46)

If the snake can get away beofre it bites you, let it.

If it does bite you, you should kill it and bring it along to the doctor; it can help them in aiding you if they know the exact species/sub-species, age, size, etc.

L8R,

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 22:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.250.21)

Rod, will STMC be sending out information packages on the how to's and why for's on the Match?

Having hard time figuring out the 1000 yard thing, can't wait to see what else I will be tortured with. (if I can get off work) The boss isn't taking kindly to me having off 8 out of 10 days and girlfriend didn't see the humor in cutting our vacation short. I told her that By Gawd is lovely in October. Jaw still hurting.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 23:03:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.83)

I got my M3-LR from Premier, and it has football dots... I understand that the factory M3-LR's with mil-dots, have round dots on glass... can anyone confirm this??

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 00:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.42)

Seem's I've been using it and didn't know,been using ADI AR2208 in .308 for a few years, I knew it was close to Varget,but now I have confirmed it thru ADI.ADI(Australia Defence Industries) makes powder for themselves and Hodgdon, Brian MacRae of ADI gave me the following:
 

ADI Hodgdon's

AR2208 = Varget
AR2209 = H4350
AR2213sc = H4831

AR2213 does not = H4831
AR2213 is 2-3% slower than H4831

If anyone want's more info e-mail them at (adi@cnl.com.au)

Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 02:01:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.198)

Necessity is the mother of invention,You fellers see any major faults in this program?
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 03:12:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.44)

Mike Kroger: How dare you ask about a Ruuu =#$*%($##@)(* Ruugggggg *&^*^%$^&&**(( Ruuuuuuuuuuuuggggaar Fuck can t even spell it right. Bring me another Singapore Sling, baby!! And a 270 WInchester caliber too boot. Anyway, spin drift is when you put your clothes in the washer and when it gets to the spin cycle and they are off balance, the whole tub staarts to drift and shake. (Shit Gooch thats about as good an explanation as the other Voodoo stuff around here.)

Snake Bite Remedy for peteR. Remove snake from around peteR. Give the snake artificial resusitation and pump its little chest if there is no heaart beat. Roll peteR in a ditch and kiss his ass good bye. Get the snake to a vet as soon as possible. Macanudos are already packed for your edification!

BRogers: Dont have any bullet holes in me but that rock salt sure does hurt whe it penetrates your ass. Good thing I had my pants down, so no cloth got imbedded (scary thought - huh). But Darrell got it worse while he was mooning the sheep rancher. hehehe.

Pablito, you are still my hero!! It just seems when people are very knowledgeable around and express ones opinion, there is always someone who thinks they know more and then the belittling starts. Hell, you're not Sanctamonious, you're probably not even Catholic.

Scott: any other SC sshirts left. I need one in an extra large size. How about it, big guy. e-mail whether affirmative or negatory.

Ok Im outta here, but drinks are on the house. Tell the barkeep what you want! Im buyin!!

al o.

AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Preparin" Myself in the Grand and Wonderful State of , Ohio which is Unfortunately next to West Virginny, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 04:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.58)

Whos gooch? Did he invent spindrift?

mike <kroger@hotmail.com>
not only PeteR got snakebit, VA, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 07:49:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Try to get directly behind the shooter - preferably in line with their barrel. When they shoot, it will look like a little vapor wiggly worm going down range. After watching them for awhile, you can start asking the shooter to call their shots and see how good their call is. We did this alot with national match rapid fire when practicing. The coach is directly behind you with a good scope and calls each shot as you squeeze it off.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 11:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.38)

You should be packin' all your stuff about now... I switched to LRR-III for reasons I'll explain when I see you at Carlos... say hello to Lucy at "Lucy's Sheep Dip Cafe'"... Let me know if all the vegetation is dead from the drought, I may want to bring down a brown ghillie suit for the creep.
...and, no, I'm not Catholic, though I've been know to say more than a few a few "Hail Marys" when I've seen flashing red lights in my rear-veiw mirror.

Doc...
When I spoke to the nice Leupold lady this past winter, she said that their factory M3-LRs had round dots on glass, and I think Scott said the same (but not sure), but I also hear that the factory scopes had footballs... I like them both, but I thought I'd get round one from the factory this time, but I guess not!!

Jeff...
If there is not much humidity, you may not be able to see the wigglie worm vapor trace, but you will be able to see the sonic shock wave... it gives the background a rippled look, like looking through water.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 12:03:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.110)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 12:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I am deeply moved at your concern for the health and welfare of the local reptile population. Your concern for me is quite touching as well.
Tell you what, during the stalking event, I'll follow you beating on a pan with a spoon to keep the bears away OK? and maybe I'll sing "Kumbaya" as well!
Guess where I learned that one......

Mike -(kroger),

I hafta apologize for my buddy,

Al is a Ohier Fly Boy, just learned to load ammo pointy end first, and for years thought milk came out of the cow in cartons.
Depity Dave (Where are ya?) made a fitting post something about Al's "idea of long range being across the counter at 7-11." or something to that effect.

Although I have been know to chaste owners of a Ruuu, Ruuug, Ruuuugge.
They probably can do alright if the shooter does his part and knows his stuff. practice-pratice-practice

on spin drift, best thought is "Dont even go there" read the archieves and learn the painless way. TRUST ME!

chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 13:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.62)

Springfield 4-14x56 3rd Gen. Yeah, I got one. What can I say, it’s a big honking scope with a green bullet drop reticule. It works great. The scope is bright, clear, holds zero and the turrets work (all this is to be expected from a “sniper” scope). I don’t like the green color because when moving from a dark hollow to bright conifer surroundings the reticule tends to disappear. At night under orange tinted street lighting it the contrast of green and orange is really striking (pun intended). Springfield also has an excellent service department if there are any problems or you just think your scope might need a checkup. If you decide to get one have Springfield send you a spare allen wrench to adjust the turrets.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 13:40:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 15:11:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 15:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

My LR M1 has the foot ball shaped dots too. I thought I herd somewere that the glass etched retical uses the round dots. I think they only come on the MK4 scopes. I think all the wire reticals us the foot ball shaped dots.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 16:27:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.146.104)

To the "Crew",
Headed for Wyoming in the morning, you guys play nice with one another and no fighting while I am gone(I hate to miss out on a good one) If any of you are going to the shoot be sure to look me up and say "HI"!! Looking forward to seeeing some of the guys from last year. Play nice!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 18:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Just got back from the desert. Not enough humidity to see the bullet path, but was able to spot and call the shots. Your right on about the shock wave, real impressive. Should see what Berger VLD's 190 gr. do to 1/4" plate steel at 1000 yds. MV 3200 fps. Went right through the sch. 40 pipe legs and 1" by 1/2" dimples out the back of the plate.. I can just imagine what a quality hunting bullets would do! Thanks again for the info. Going back tomorrow to work on smaller groups. Shooting about 1 MOA with practice loads. (not my good brass and second choice of powder).
Jeff <farshot@trilobyte.net>
Stansbury, UT, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 00:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.141.228.183)

And I dont think Kent Gooch invented spin drift. He contributed his sagely advice to the topic, but I dont think he invented it.

And you ask who is Gooch. I have traveled far and wide and have visited Himilayan monks and asked their opinions about the meaning of life, questioning my relationship to the planets and about proper long range shooting. They have always deferred the answers to "The Man Above Them." The one who lives on the Mountain of Storm, directly next to the Gardens of the Elk. Mr Gooch has answered all of my questions and will answer yours also, provided the correct amount of reverence is shown. He is perhaps one of the best shots in the world, but you would never know it by his humility. He is also an accomplished writer and fashion designer, best know for his Article "Robin Egg Blue PUmps are in and Fuscia Ascots are out with the Ghillied Sniper" in a recent Tactical Shooter magazine. He was also the "testicle" advisor for the critically acclaimed documentary, "You Have to Have King Kong Balls to Make that Long Shot".

So when you visit Valhalla, ask ODin and Thor where Gooch the Great resides and as they humbly bow, they will tell you "On the Throne above us!"

peteR now on to you. I can deal with Mr Grizz better than with those buzzworms which we earlier discussed. One nice thingee about Alaska was that there were no snakes, wolverines, grizz and other things which can tear you a new ass and I prefer them over buzzworms anyday. I ve already packed my spoon and tin plate. See you Saturday night. Ive got a couple of cold ones on reserve for us.

MR Kroger, one other thing about washing machines. Im not sure if it is actually spin drift. Thats what my wife told me also. And I believe everything she says.

Take care of your backside.

al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Northern West Virginny, Ohier, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 01:19:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.115)

Many thanks for your input on me over cleaning my barrel. It makes perfect sense. I had never really heard of unbreaking in a barrel (except for not cleaning it) after it was properly broken in by over cleaning.

Now when I'm back at SMTC this Oct. I can shoot another hundred rounds a day and not worry about cleaning.

Many thanks guys
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 02:29:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.43)

To all, I just came from Camp Perry and at the Sprinfield Armory store on Commercial row, they had dozens of reconditioned Springfield scopes, (The big honking variables) for sale for $200 each. They also had quite a few new looking 6x Springfield tactical scopes for $225.

Another store was giving away free samples of the new Hornady 30 cal. 155 gr. Amax B.C. .435 and the 168 Amax B.C. .475
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:01:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Eating Humble Pie in the state where Steve also resides , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:25:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.176)

Out

Bob
Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:28:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.132.51.46)

So does the Gooch put his trousers on one leg at a time like us?
(Most reverently asked with nose scraping earth)

On the Ruger .270Win is there any advantage to trading down to a Remington M700? Someone on a post above pointed out that the military buys on the cheap, I was wondering if that meant that as a one-off civilian buyer should stay with quality, as I have read a lot of negative things here about Remington standards.

great site.
mike <Kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:58:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

I have been very happy with my rifle and I think that my experiences are not atypical. Remington is capable of making a quality product but I am sure that all manufacturers have some defects that slip through the cracks.

About spin drift:
The results of spin drift have been discussed to death lately. Is spin drift similar to baseball where a fastball rises slightly due to the rotation of the ball?

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 04:34:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.7.148)

So this means a long range shooter should adjust for elevation over distance because of this extra lifting effect,ie vertical drift right?

mike <kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 04:43:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

I read a question and some answers about shooting streight up and the resulting volicity of the projectile. I go with the answers that said the bullet is just falling after all the energy given to it by the rapid expansion of gas is gone. What I have problems with is the notion that a bullet fired at an angle other than 180 degeres to gravity will maintain some magical terminal valocity forever. I'm no physisist (may not even be able to spell it) but from my understanding, a bullet travels in a parabolic arc (as it slows down gravity has more and more effect on it up to the point that it is finelly traveling streight down, this all assumes that it dosn't hit something like the ground first). I haven't checked the balistic charts on this, but, I can not imagine how a .50 could maintain enough energy at 7500 yds. to do anything but make a big thuding noise as it falls to the ground. By that time even if fired at 45 degrees it would be falling almost streight down. To get an idea of what this is like, wad up a sheet of paper, go outside and try to throw it as far as you can. As the energy that you have put into the paper wad with your arm disipates it slows and then falls streight down. This is exactly what will happen with any non self propelled projectile that does not leave the gravitional pull of our planet. This also helps to explain why we don't use .223's for everything.

I must need some rest.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Glad to see the nasty hot days go away for at least a little while in, Sunburned West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 05:14:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.143)

Does this mean we all now need to put dimples on our bullets?

Makes a man wonder!

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Enquiring mindes want to know all over, Beautiful, west Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 05:26:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.143)

Lets face it, if someone didnt complain about the bumps versus great braking ability, we would still have the square wheel.

No-one out there shoot Rugers in .270Win?
mike <Kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 06:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Most importantly, we need to work together to save ourselves from another spindrift discussion. Some posts are getting too close to reopening THAT Pandora's box, even as a joke. There's some good humor in the snake posts, though.

Semper Fi
Mark J <markj12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 06:19:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.79)

On another note, of the aftermarket tactical stocks that work well for sniping, who makes em for the savages? Friend of mine has one in .308, and one in .300 winmag. He really wants to put something a bit better on it, but he has issues with finding info.

Also, anyone who is anywhere close (2-3 hours max) from the Frederick county Maryland area who wouldn't mind getting together with someone who is new to long range shooting to help/shoot/throw back a few in september or october, drop me a line.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Finally cooler in, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 06:22:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Answer:
You can't! Sniper's don't get impatient!

I'll be back tomorrow at about noon Pacific Time with something special to announce. And I know none of you feel any suspense or even curriosity at all right? Cool, calculated, and patient.

Until tomorrow!

JT - Tactical Intervention Specialists Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 08:14:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

I beg to differ.

OK. You are on one side of the military crest of a hill. Bad Guy is on the other. You are separated by about 50 yards. There is no way you can get over the crest without exposing yourself to hostile eyes.

What's a boy to do?????????

:-)

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 08:42:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.42)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Holysheeetit'sactuallycool, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 09:01:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Where is the post about shooting PDs. I'll weigh in on this one, especially since it is my patures they are destroying. You guys know my stand on hunting. I don't. Had all the killing I need a long time ago, but I support hunting and especially rodent control (two legged or four).

De Oppresso Liber

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
God's Country, NM, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 11:38:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.34.224)

If interested in suppressors or subsonicloads for rifles,go to the site below,if you want loads or an answer to a related question,once in go to links and the GOW(gunwriters on the web).The Finn's have a wealth of experience in reduced loads,and suppressor design and knowedge,and explanation's are very thorough.

(//personal.inet.fi/business/reflex.suppressors/contact.html)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 11:45:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.227)

I sympatize with all of you from CA., but you should try living in NJ.
When King Florio was elected the NJ assult rifle band was past and there was no buyback or grace periods, you became a felon over night. Five years and a $7500 fine. Had to move my six hit list items to PA or face 30 years in jail. It's a nice world we live in.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 12:51:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Are you and Mr. Jarrett coming to the Carlos match at Storm Mountain in October? I would be interested in meeting you in person. Probably be a lower "signal to noise" ratio there right? And no purse carrying men!

Depity,

WELCOME BACK!

Hillbilly Ballistics 101:

Don't dimples have something to do with the spherical shape of a golf ball and sub-sonic velocities. Totally different form shape and factor. The closest I've seen to dimples is "impact plating" of moly via steel shot.
Smooth is good! look at missles, fast planes, fast cars, and FAST women!

Chao for now!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 13:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.208)

The question you posed was if you are on one military crest of the hill and an enemy force is on the other with a 50yd separation. This with the understanding they have not detected you. I suggest hauling ass down the hill across the valley up the next hill and over its peek to the military crest on the far side and then call in artillery. This is from a sniper spotter perspective. Snipers should never actively engage infantry troops. Several grenades and 2 M-4 rifles are no match for a enemy platoon. I probably would not engage even at squad level. I don’t like the idea of trying to rain down ammo on troops. It is not deadly and will give away my position.

As far as shooting PDs and Ground hogs is concerned I have never seen one and don’t know any thing about them except for some PETA film footage. When you shoot them, do they really do back flips and explode into red clouds of blood and viscera? Looks cool, some day I will have to go on a PD safari.

Gooch have you written a book or do you plan to?

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 14:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 14:47:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
New Carrisa Bay, OR, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 15:43:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.107)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 16:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Don't know about any others, but McMillan will do most any of their stocks for Savages, even the new 10 series. Verified that last by phone with them when the 10's were first announced. I was told that they were expecting the specs for the new actions any day and were ready to set up their equipment for the new double pillared actions. This was some time ago, and I haven't verified since. Some things came up and my .308 purchase has been put on hold for a while. Last I heard, H&S didn't do any Savage at all.

Extracting any way I can.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, Kalifornicating us, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 16:48:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.30.140.5)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 20:01:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Dimples on bullets would be cute kinda like them dimples on good lookin rear end.

Rod, need the poop sheets on the Match. PeteR scared hell out of me last night with all the stuff i've got to get ready for.

Can you be a sniper if you have allergies? Ragweed now having sex. Pollen everywhere making life miserable. :(

Me thinks some of you are fraidy of serpants. Better check all your gear at the match. I think I have found my edge! HEHEHE
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 21:11:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.51)

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 22:05:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.146.189)

You, Scared? doubt it man........... Those "Super sized" forearms from all that scope ring lapping would probably allow you to choke a Brahama ooops Brahma Bull.

Bill Rogers,

Do you mean Paul Hogan???? The Suburu Outback dude?!

Darryl-Down Under-Dude,
do fill us in man, this is too surreal.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 22:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.82)

He was made Territorian of the year in 1988.

He shot dead a cop at a roadblock. No motive is known. However his station was sold due to the fact that the government slaughtered wild buffalo to prevent bovine diseases, this apparently killed off a large industry.

His arms were politically correct 12g and lever action.

A damn pity all round.
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 23:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Doesn't every law enforcement official take an oath to uphold and defend the Consitution of the U.S.? A friend of mine is working on entry into the CHP, and tells me he will, again (Navy Vet.). Assuming that it's true, won't these people be violating that oath when they predictably begin investigating and arresting those who refuse to comply? What with the ammendments and all...

It makes for an interesting debate, I think.

As for the rest of us, what will you do when your turn comes to give up your weapon? When do we draw the line? Bit by bit, piece by piece, we'll watch our means to resist tyranny as it is erased forever. Or will we? It's kinda like Y2K...Better be prepared, just in case it really happens.

Not related to snipers? Think about it...

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Bill Of Rights Is Still King, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 00:37:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.23)

whups - getting way too serious here - where are the sheep again?
Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Check out the Canadain Infantry School page, there's some good articles in the Journal about Snipers and Sniping from our military viewpoint. BTW, we actually have a qualification up here called "Master Sniper" (QL6, I believe), in US terms it means Sniper Instructor. Is this Puma guy one? http://www.brunnet.net/infsch/journal/32/32_toc-a.htm

Tony <tmacke@ibm.net>
BC, Canada - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:40:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.37.148.188)

Mr. Jarrett and I probably won't make it to the Hatchcock shoot. Unfortunately, West Virginia is a good distance away from us SouthWesterner's. Maybe in the future.
Out

Bob
Bob H <bhodge@Primenet.Com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.132.50.174)

They's got dimples 'cause they's aunties kept on a pinchin' they's cheeks. (PeteR - how do you write like that? I can say it, but the spellin' jus dont com natur'l.)

Golf balls are subsonic at around 200 mph. Unlike bullets, they don't spin around the axis of flight, insted they tumble. With the air resistance on the ball, the dimples reduce drag and allow it to travel farther. The pattern, spacing, and dimensions of the dimples were changed until the present type has the best compromise of low drag and controllability. They can make 'em travel farther, but if you don't hit 'em just right.... BTW - the pattern is best for one air viscosity. Change the temperature and pressure and the ideal pattern changes too.

Does a golf ball and club come under the heading of sniper weapons? A coupel of years ago, I hit a golf ball about 3" in front of the nose of a decent deer from the 6th tee at ~125 yds. Since it was in the fall, 6" left would've made venison for dinner. Of course, it might be I misranged the thing with the TTTAAAASSSCCCOO SS10X42 on the club.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:18:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.22.133)

I have some questions if you care to contact me off site.

cheers all

Now America is going down the Australian route, I'll look for a paintball site.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:22:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Try going thru (www.riistamaa.fi) or (fi.soneraplaza.net) then "reflex".

AWOL for 14 days.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 04:29:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.232)

You asked where to get a bug jacket.

There is a surplus store in Cambell California called "The Mountain View Surplus". 2 weeks ago I was in there looking for a hat to keep my head from getting fried. (All I could find suitable was a jungle hat which is gonna raise eyebrows at the range - but that is another story)... Anyhow I saw the very thing you ask about. I dont know if they were USMC but they were military bug jackets. looked a lot like Olive Drab gauze.

Anyway call information for Campbell California 408-555-1212 and ask for 'The Mountain View Surplus' off of Winchester Aveunue. It's near the Pruneyard so it could be borderline San Jose.

JT - Tactical Intervention Specialist Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 09:13:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Thanks for the lesson in golf ball ballistics. I had an attempt made to recruit me to golfing a decade ago, but declined cuz I wern't allowed to shoot the golf balls at them thar holes in the ground.

Hillbilly ballistics and prose is a very advanced skill here in West By-Gawd Virginia. Some of the requirements are graduating 6th grade, retention of 2nd growth teeth, necklace of your baby teeth (as proof), chart of geneology going back at least two decades and kinfolk in Hazard, Kentucky!

Mr. Hodge,

Sorry you and Mr. Jarrett won't be able to attend the swa-ray at S/M. It will be fun!

JT,

Its almost 08:15 here in hillbilly land, wheres that thar super-secret Aa-gent posting? The wait is soo painfully excrutiating, will it last?

Tony,

Thanks for the heads up on Canadian Master Snipers, but they earn their badges respectfully don't they.
Guess we'll have to differentiate in the future so as to not smear the folks that earned the title.
hmmmm
"Un-Master Sniper", nah that'll piss off the Un-dude.....

oh well back to the crayons!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 12:09:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.23)

I was joking! Sorry if the cynicism was lost in the translation to the keyboard....

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 13:06:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.199)

some may find this of interest:

GPS End-of-Week Rollover Issue

In addition to evaluating its products for compliance with the Y2K, Magellan is also evaluating its products for compliance with the EOW event, which is similar to the date rollover at the end of the century, but unique to Global Positioning System technology.

GPS time is based on a "GPS week number" ranging from "0" to "1023". Week 1023 will end at midnight (UTC time) on August 21, 1999, at which time the week number will "roll over" or re-set to week 0 beginning on August 22, 1999. If a receiver has not been prepared to handle this week rollover event, the receiver may calculate inaccurate position fixes, generate erroneous dates or have difficulty acquiring satellite signals.

"Ende"

T

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 17:30:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.13)

Today I saw a MK4-M1, 10x with round dots on glass... so they DO exist... unfortunatly, this one had those saw-tooth ring marks on it, so no sale...

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 18:39:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.78)

Well today is 'Undude-Mike's big day! We have finally finished his website and he has gotten all of the business issues (like a phone and a biz address) resolved and it is time to go LIVE!

It has been a very busy month, and Mike has worked really hard to get everything in order. I am pretty darn happy with the site. We decided to make it easy to load at the expense of glitz and heavy duty download graphics... This should be good for most of you as I don't see this group as fitting into the 'Pentium 12 power-nerd' category. :-)

Anyhow the

Tactical Intervention Specialists Website is ready for your inspection! It consists of about 120 separate html pages and over 210 graphics and photographs. Mike and I are both very eager to hear your feedback on it. Good or Bad.

For those who have waited until you could see a photograph before purchasing one of Mike's Quick-Cuff Rifle Slings - wait no longer! I have posted detailed photos of all three Quick Cuff models - not to mention a bunch more photos in the 'online owners manual'.

Speaking of pictures, it's rumored that there is a picture of the Undude himself on the pages. :-)

In any event Please drop by http://www.tacticalintervention.com/ and have a look around. Let us know what you think and how the site can be improved... Oh and consider grabbing one of Mike's slings! He needs the money to pay my exorbitant salary somehow!

Finally, if any of you guys have a website, We would really love a link. I have posted graphics you can use for linking. I'd be very pleased to link your sites as well. Just mail me and ask.

Enjoy the site everyone...

Congratulations Mike! You are on the air!
 

JT - Webmaster - Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Oakland, California, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 19:13:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Is it just me or do any of you feel that shooting your coworkers is unsportsmanlike. There is no real challenge in it. Most of the time they are not armed. They walk around the workplace in condition white and when someone starts shooting they freeze or run away. Few if any attack or become violent. Mostly they just whimper in the corner.

So all you “mad gunman” wannabes, if you really want to test your skill and prove your selves to be real men (or what ever you think you are) come on down to your local Police department, SWAT division and ask to speak to a man dressed in black holding an MP-5.

We will check you out in style.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 19:24:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

I have seen many,many head shots with pistol rounds, shotguns and light caliber rifles. They do some strange stuff, but when they hit the sinus and max-facial area, they seem to make a mess but leave the victim functioning...I had a case several years back where a high school girl was marking javelins for the track team...she must have been thinkin' about her upcoming redevouis for that night when she wandered down range at the wrong time...she mus have heard the warning just in time to look up and WHACK, right in the side of the head, just forward and in line with the ear canal...flew her via medivac and three days later she was released..even though the javelin was better than halfway through her skull when it stopped...

bottom line, if you really gotta have that bad guy hold still after the bang, aim behind the ear on the side shots. The brain kinda comes up the back of your head and then travels up and over the ear canal...the closer to where the spine joins the brain the better.
medicjim <james_mitchell@merck.com>
warren, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 19:43:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

To all that emailed thanks for the nice comments about the website. The great job goes to JT/Charles.

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 23:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.72)

I thought about posting this a while back during a 2nd amendment discussion, but didn't. That topic is back, so what the heck. I am a cop in Columbus, Ohio, and have been since 96. In 89, city council passed a law, city code 2323.31, Unlawful Possession of Assault Weapons, which states, in pertinent part, (some legalese BS removed)
(A)No person shall sell, ... or possess any assault weapon.
(B)This section does not apply:
(1)To law enforecement officers and members of the armed forces of the US, if they are authorized to possess assault weapons (AW) and are acting in the scope of their duties.
(2) the transportation of AW through Columbus in accordance with federal law.
(3) to any person who lawfully possessed an AW and who registered that AW pursuant to former city code 2325.05 in 1989
(C)...a misdemeanor of the first degree (up to 6 months in jail and/or $1000 fine). second offense- mandatory 30 days, third or more offenses- mandatory 90 days

section 2323.11G defines an assault weapon as
(1)any semi-automatic action, centerfire rifle or carbine that accepts a detachable magazine with a capacity of 20 rounds or more;
(2)any semi-auto shotgun with mag capacity of more than 6 rounds
(3)any semi-auto handgun that is:
(a)a modification of a rifle described in (1)
(b)originally designed to accept a detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 20 rounds.

anything permanently modified so that is inoperable is legal (master sniper's guns are allowed, apparently)

.22 caliber is okay.

You may be wondering, did I confiscate any weapons? Did I arrest people for this? Yes, I did, a few times. All I can recall taking are some Tec-9's and we got an AK once. It is interesting to note that every weapon I took was used to commit another crime, such as a shooting or a robbery, or was in the possession of a convicted felon, who could not have a firearm. It seems the law abiding people weren't doing things that would attract the attention of Columbus Police officers.

The good news? That law was repealed, at the federal level, in late 98 or early 99, as being unconstitutional, and there are no plans to introduce a new version. So there is hope for law abiding gun owners.

Thinking about getting an AR-15,
Semper Fi.
Mark J <markj12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Oh, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 01:56:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.203)

Does any one have any other suggestions?

Any info apprecitated.

Larry
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 02:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.254.144.218)

Brian
Brian <heiterman@qnet.com>
Bishop, CA, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 03:38:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.221.218.193)

Luck to us all.

Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced , Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 03:48:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.206)

I asked a coupla days ago if anybody had any experience with the 3X9 Leupold Tactical with MilDots that Premier Reticles builds?

Spud
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 04:26:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.206)

New question, break-in....
What does barrel break-in (using the procedures found here at SC) actually do to the barrel? Does it fill the pores of the metal on the lands to make them smoother or just work down any imperfections that may have been left by the manufacturer?

The BIG BLUE PUMA need not reply.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
Alabama, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 09:23:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.156)

Well, I signed up two more guys in the NRA this week on 1 year memberships which I paid for. Maybe they won't renew, maybe they will. What matters is that the NRA has got two more members than they had and they've got another $50 to spend. Ask a shooter you know, "Would you like to join the NRA for free for 1 year?" Some members would say that these guys need to pay for their own memberships, on principle. I agree. However, some people need to be led by the hand. They empathize with us but lack initiative. Now, here's two more guys that will be exposed to our position over the course of a year through NRA literature. Maybe they'll begin to like it. This way, you won't be the one harping on it every time you see the guy who should be a member but isn't and he won't begin to avoid you or think you're a nut. If he chooses not to renew on his own, fine. Go out and find some more candidates. Fifty bucks will buy a lot of primers but what good are they if you can't use them?

Steve:

Beamed Up? What if they were talking about Jim Beam?
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 09:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.47)

Trigger/Michael, this might interest especially you:

.338 Lapua Magnum brass from Lapua has gotten a new extractor rim specification. Previously it was similar to .416 Rigby, .30-378 Weatherby, 378 Weatherby etc. It is not that way anymore. Lapua has changed their previous rim specification to conform with the C.I.P. standards we Europeans use. (SAAMI is a similar agency in the USA). This new specification was introduced when new production changes were made at Lapua plants.

Long story in short: New .338 Lapua brass has got a shallower extractor rim than before and for example RCBS #37 shellholder for .416 Rigby is now too tight. With older shells it works 100%. The new brass can not be used with that shell holder. The shellholder can be modified with a Dremeltool so that both "old" and "new" Lapua brass can be loaded. The rim diameter stays the same so both old and new brass an be used in rifles chambered for .338 Lapua. All previous info on this mail I got from Lapua´s R&D manager who explained it to me. I of course had new and old brass and a shellholder for .416 Rigby :-)

About the rim specification of .338 Norma I do not know anything about, but they are in the same ammunition corporation than Lapua, so their specs may change too in the near future.

Best regards,

Heikki Juhola a.k.a. Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 13:19:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

If you find/are someone who can help get one of tehm reconditioned springfields, let me know. Please.

All-

Anyone know where I could find either the B&L Tactical scopes, or the Tasco SS scopes for sale? I need something mildot, that is not too expensive for several purposes.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
heatcamebackin, Maryland, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 16:35:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.144.225)

I was just wondering where you'd been!

Thanks for the update on the .338 Lapua Mag brass.

This is the kinda stuff that makes this site ROCK!
 

24 hours Al O. .........................

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 17:00:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)

Anyway COMPLETELY different subject:

I am considering getting a spotting scope. It should be something thats rugged as hell.. I'd also like it to be lightweight as possible. (I know oxymoronic request right) Anyhow do any of you have a specific reccomendation for something of decent quality and fairly high power that fits the bill? What is a reasonable cost for one of these. (yes new - I dont like buying other people's problems)

JT - Webmaster - Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Kalifornyetia, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 18:49:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 20:01:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Al O, I called Gooch and he said he is out of slings so I sent you one to Storm. It should be there for you a two or three days. Sorry for the mix up.

Bill Wylde, has the Old Dog brought you that match sling yet? If so what do you think? That is a first attempt

Gooch I forgot to include your new design. I will send one with my next mailing in a few day. Thats a message for you BruceH and BUK

Darrel, If you guys like those slings down under we may have to have some one buy a bunch or make them there. Almost a morgage to send them to you.

Darren, I sent you an email. call me

Rod Ryan, looking forward to coming to Storm and seeing what everyone is talking about. You being a gentelman may be a problem. Everyone around me says I am first generation walking upright. By the way I wrote a review for Minute Of Angle on the data book. I was very impressed.

Well time to make a few slings.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacicalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 20:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.201)

To All, Mr. Hugo has written some nice articles for TS magazine. I thought the articles on the military use of match ammo was very good. You can read the article by going to the hot links section of this web site and find the link called "Captain S"

Fortunately for some of you, I don't forget where I read everything,
If anyone would like to be a Ballistics expert,(just like me) all you have to do is _(clickhere)_ It is a website called "How bullets fly" It you will learn that there is such a thing called bullet overstabilization, you will learn fancy new words like "yaw of repose" and of course there is the ever popular "Magnus effect". Amaze your friends and confuse your enemies with your newfound knowledge. Be sure to click on all the pictures. If you can even digest half of this stuff you will be way ahead of me.
Steve <nato@bright.ent>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 21:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

'lito
Dude, read your email please. Sorry about the confusion.
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 23:24:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.169)

I called Midway USA (Columbia, MO) to check out pricing on the Tasco Super Sniper SS10x42M. They quoted me a dealer price of $501.99 and a "regular" price of $561.99. For comparison, their dealer price on a Leupold Tactical (Vari-X III) 4.5-14x40 with adjustable objective and mil-dot reticle is $518.99. Both scopes have a matte finish.

The Tasco SS10x42M is not a normally stocked item at Midway - but they will order you one. [Personally, I'd go for the Leupold!!!]

I'm wondering how these prices compare with those that some of you may have found. Any comments???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 01:17:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.154)

Quickbow-
Tired and goin home.
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
night is good. night is cooler in, maryland, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 02:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.11)

Out.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 03:18:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.48.60)

They are both class acts.

Spud,Out
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 06:02:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.179)

Heikki,
great post.

Steve,
Stop picking on the "magnus effect", this is holy to the site. It sorts the humourous from the humourless. I think Krogers point was to explore all effects on marksmanship without being too self-serious.

Californians,
Best of luck with the SKS deal.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 07:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
alabama, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 08:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.142)

The sportsmans guide has 2 US Mil Shelter halves with poles/stakes
for $11.97.
First thought: I'll buy some for the tarp.
Second thought: I'll let the guys know.

This is the second thought.
If your interested it's at:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/specialad.html?ad_id4192

All,
Does anyone know what the synth. material is that rem makes its
stocks from?
Will fiberglass bond to it?
Has anyone worked one of these stocks to fit them in such a manner?
ie. building up cheekweld, grip etc?
As usual any help would be appriciated!
buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Chasingatorsin, Louisiana, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 12:17:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.144.81)

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 14:59:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.144.141)

I received my new McMillan rifle today and it sits next to the HS Rifle. Once a scope gets here the games begin.

Undude/Mike
Mike M <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
calif, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 17:20:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.26)

Got the sling a couple days ago. Very well constructed and well thought out. The sling loop for a coat hook is ideal. Can you make the swivel end with a velcro loop-back for ease of changing length while in position? You could possibly position the velcro mating to rest directly under the shooting glove. I think this would be the icing on the cake. Another nice piece of kit!

Old Dog,

Tried the ammo in testing a new AR. The results were not too good, but possibly not the fault of the ammo. This is a 1 in 8" Krieger match rifle that is fitted with both irons and a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X56 scope. Now there's a scope, but quite heavy. The objective lense would make it necessary for the scope to be mounted quite high on a boltgun, but perfect for the AR. Also, this rifle has been fitted for the LRP magazines. These allow the use of 80 grainers (to 2.460+ OAL),from the magazine, and seem to work nicely. Another new addition to this rifle is an adjustable front sight base that is being sold by Ken Pisichko of Manitoba. All aluminum, quite light, and adjustment range is about 1/2" where the adjustment NEEDS to be. The rear sight is a Warner and my first time using a Warner base. Bolted on plumb, right from the box. Real quality, and not having to fit a rear base is a complete first!

Off to Canada with the stockless rifle on Wednesday. It is shooting very well. With a little luck, maybe I can add to further bacon coming south. Called the DCRA the other day and Heike knew all about the Storm Mountain/NS gang. Way to go, guys & girl!

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SUNNY - SE, IL, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 17:25:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.132.114.181)

Mike
Mike D. <djmiked@gateway.net>
CT, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 22:12:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 153.36.248.63)

Mike
Mike D. <djmiked@gateway.net>
CT, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:16:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.250.161.15) 

MikeM: just shaking my head....

Anyone out west of Nebraska: How is the praire chicken population this year? thanks

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:22:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10) 

Doc, about the snake. Doctor say, you die. Remember that old joke?

Well, off to bed. The best girlfriend ever got me a set of Redding micrometer dies for my birthday and now she's yelling for attention. All the best to you poor schlebs.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.81) 

I've had a look at the site. You've done an excellent job in my humble opinion. The instruction manual seems to be well thought out and clearly presented (read even my little wannabe monkeyass thinks I can use this sling and not tournequetize(?) my left arm or inadvertently strangle myself). I've wanted to begin learning to shoot with a sling, and this looks like the way to go about it. Mike, I thank you for developing this product and JT, I thank you for your hard work on developing the site. And, Mike, thanks again for your time on the phone.

The caliber of folks on SC ... nuff said.

TorF/Pat/anyone:

I'm going to work up a load for the 6.5/08 with N165. Any ideas? Seems like 45 gr is a good starting chg. wt. Will use 142MKs and some 140 VLDs.

Also, what's a good method to clean cases that have what appears to be some gunk on the inside of the case after prepping and tumbling in a vibratory case cleaner with corncob. Don't really want to buy any stuff. Maybe some household concoction to "launder" the inside. I'm careful with the usual prep and I wonder if it might be beneficial to get the inside as crud-free as possible before loading.

Also, I hear there's a movie coming titled "Shooter". Based on Stephen Hunter's "Point Of Impact." The part of Bob Lee Swagger to be played by Keanu Reeves. Anyway, I've read the book. Great read. If anybody has not read it, please do. Also, "Blacklight" and "Time To Hunt". Two more with same main character.

Time to head out to the mailbox, assume the lotus posture, hyperventilate, and recite the "Undude Slingj Mantra".

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Sleeping beside the mailbox, waitin' for a sling in sultry Smyrna, GA, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 03:39:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.216.53.235) 

Tip: I wrapped my cardboard target in a clear plastic stretch wrap like they use for securing boxes on a pallet or the kitchen sandwich stuff. Keeps the target from softening up, holds the sticky pasters even in the rain because the water droplets fall of, and when you go home and take the wrap of you see your daily spread.

"Ende"

T
Torsten <lasercon@dialup, globe.de>
dripping wet in, Germany - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 06:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.40) 

Anyway Jeff, Mike and I worked really, and I mean really hard on this site. The online owners manual that you speak so well of was basically an afterthought - but one that we obviously needed. Thanks very much for making public your impressions of the site and thanks for supporting Mike by buying a tournoq-- I mean a sling. I am sure you will love it. Granted I am heavily biased, but None of the slings I see in stores or at the show can come anywhere near Mikes for ruggedness. I have 3 of them myself. I went to the gunshow at the Cow Palace this afternoon and nothing and I mean nothing that I saw out there even compares.

Well enough being a sales droid... To those who have written asking for links, I took most of today off and am about 60 messages behind. We have gotten about 500 or so emails since we opened and have responded to each. I needed a break today though. I WILL be linking all that asked and I'd love a link from you.

To whoever suggested optimizing the splash page and its graphic. I did so and thanks for the advice. Its now 1/3 of the size and loads a lot faster.

Spotting scopes:

Only one email response to my spotting scope question.... *sniff* Don't you guys love me anymore?
JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
here in the soviet run , CCCPalifornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 08:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61) 

Animal13 <Twiisted@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 12:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.147.56) 

Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 12:37:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.117.43.200) 

Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 13:21:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.117.43.167) 

Did you try seating you projectiles to fit inside the magazine box first? Belchrest -oops- benchrest stuff is great but if ya got a repeater you should use it as one.
The Saa, Saa'vge finish sounds great! "Self camo'ing" finishes are the next wave for field shooters wait and see. ;-)

"T"

Neat idea! We use clear trash bags in my neck of the woods, pull'em tight on the backside and either tack with a staple gun or tape.

Jeff A.

Try using "Simple Green" or a similar generic Wally World All Purpose Cleaner on a bore mop. then Rinse with hot water.

How much additive do you have in the media? Are you Molying your ammo and is the moly now in the cleaning media?

Mike (Un-dude) and JT,

Great Job on the website,once again! JT are you going to come to Carlos with Mike? We can watch the Vulcan mind melds (in my case mind-melt)

Jimmy Liles,

Its "Doctor Said YOU gonna Die!"

The biggest fangs that I have personally seen on a snake were on the Gabon Viper that made headlines in Wash DC a few years back.
The one that some dumb city urchin broke the window out of the display, then stole in a trash bag, and paraded around town over his shoulder, before it got pissed and nailed his ass.....
A friend that works in the National Zoo reptile house showed us the viper while it was on R&R behind the displays, and I believe its fangs were about 3" long.
Major Ouch dudes.
And the ante-venom costs were ate by the taxpayers, the stuff is pretty hard to come by,like flying it in via jet from RSA if I member right.
We also watched a Cotton Mouth(water mocassin) zap a rat about five times in three seconds. The rats reaction was like a cartoon REAL SCARY! I AIN'T AFRAID OF SNAKES, BUT I DO RESPECT THEM.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 13:29:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.48) 

JT-ON spotting scopes;I have posted this before and it's not designed to eliminate spotting scopes as we know them but if you want small light and range finding capabilites easy to carry long eye relief and clear as a bell? a 6.5X20 Leupold MIl dot scope fastened to a scope base of your own choosing and mounted to a Camera Tripod (by tapping the weaver base to the tripod screw.) is a good addition to your kit. The advantages is that you have now a extra rifle scope. Range finding capability super light and easy transport and really about all the power you can use or need. You could of course use some other scope and just use a single weaver style ring to attach it. I usually have the scope zeroed to the rifle I'm carrying and just have to attach it to the bases with one ring. I might mention that in a field situation the 6.5 power is a lot better for preliminary sweeping than a minimum 20 power. Store it in a old sock and use the tripod (or have the spotter use it) to shoot also. Total expenditure is way under a good KOWA and you can see just about as good. Some of the higher power target scopes can also be used if target only is your game. if the spotter doesn't like to lug a extra scope mount a single weaver ring upside down on his scope and bolt 2 identical weaver style bases to gether and attach the "spotter/rifle scope) to his close range scope above his AR scope and it will point much better but it is much easier for the "enemy" to see when used like that. The additional eye relief of a real rifle scope although the area is somewhat smaller even in 30mm I would think it would serve as well in the field. I might also say that except for recon purposes at very long ranges binoculars are far better than any spotting scope for anything I can think off and much easier to employ.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 13:31:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 

I got hiped up on the 12-40x60 Mildot Leupold when I first started surfing the SC site. Sexy looking! Bought it!

Well now I wish I had bought the Leupold compact with mils and a standard benchrest scope without mils. The 12-40 is cumbersome, top heavy, and finiky about focusing expecially at higher powers. For target shooting the mils get in the way of seeing your holes and you have to move them out of the way. I haven't had it in the field yet but I think it is going to suck.

A guy at the range the other day had a B&L, can't remember the model number. I could see the holes just as clear and with my leepoholder and it costs about 500 less.

Still would really like to have the Leupold compact with mils if I get some exta cash. Maybe in the year 20093 when the youngun hopefully gradiates skewel.

BTW-do not waste your money on the Leupold compact tripods. High priced and the legs want to fold up when you don't want them to.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 14:29:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36) 

Jon(jstreet@vermontel.net) BOGUS Addy ! Totally UNcool...if you ask for info at least give a correct addy. That BOGUS addy so bent me out of shape I forgot what else I wanted to post, Oh Well...
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
HOT & HUMID, ALABAMA, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 15:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.135.173) 

Thanks to Bruce E. I am working on rear stock bags with a light filling and no rot materials. Very good so far.

Hondo, I am just a cop with a little SWAT experience never thought of myself as a high speed team member. I just do a little shootiing and teaching and the occassional medal in the Police Olympics. One day I might be a Master Sniper if I dream real well. LOL

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 15:45:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192) 

As for if I will be at Carlos with Mike. I am afraid not. A couple reasons. First I have obligations at work that week. Second Mike wouldnt want to be caught dead shooting with me. I am afraid i am a real newbie at this sort of shooting and would embarass him so badly that he'd have to go into the blanket knitting business and never talk to you guys again if he took me on as a partner. Third there is a money issue. bleah. Oh and about the mindmeld... er no.. I better keep it clean.

BRogers -
Thanks for the spotting scope comments. Your idea of a second scope has some interesting possibilities as I have always wondered what I'd do if I pranged the one on the rifle. Having the spotting scope as a redundant regular scope has a certain allure.

Bolt -
Thank you too for your scope comments. My father has a spotting scope with the magical 'fold at the wriong time' legs. Its certainly something I need to watch out for. weight will also be a consideration. Thanks for the warnings.

Will -
Thanks for your comments on the Tactical Intervention Specialists Website (can you tell I have that link Macroed?) Thjey are appreciated.

All -
Want to have some fun? Take your average cop-sniper who gleefully admits he is not a techno-wizzard. Set him up a website and publicize it. Watch aforementioned cop go 3 shades of green and become dizzy and disoriented as he receives 450 emails in 3 days when he is used to about 10.

A highly reccommended bit of sadistic entertainment is in store for any of you who can afford to do it.

JT - Webmaster Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Warsaw Ghetto, CCCP-Kalifornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 20:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61) 

Some time ago, I was shown a formula used to calculate foot pounds of recoil. It contained some constants and a few variables, including velocity, weight of weapon, and weight of bullet. Unfortunately, I failed to record it where I would not lose it.

My question is this: Do any of you know this formula and would you email it to me?

Thanks in advance!

Semper Fi!
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Too Hot In, Texas, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 20:42:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44) 

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 21:02:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.65) 

After having recut the crown to more-or-less factory spec with my new, handy-dandy Brownells crown cutting tools, I finaly got an opprtunity to get on a range this AM. Temp was in the mid-'90s, humidity pushing 90%. Not the worst we have seen, but hardly ideal. The rifle did a pretty good job of shooting under 1 MOA, a couple of groups running about 3/4 MOA, with both my handloads and Remingtons 168 grain match load (which is geneneraly not that well regarded, true?). The barrel was run quite hot and most 5-shot strings were fired over the course of only 1 to 2 minuites, with no evidence of stringing or dispersion (other than shooter induced), implying that barrel metalurgy is sound. Given better conditions and a less rusty bench shooter and a little tweaking at the loading bench, I think it will go no-shit 1/2 MOA or a tad better. That would do nicely. :) Perhaps most heartening of all, the rifle reqired less than 1 MOA windage adjustment to zero, which implys that the fundamental stock-reciever-barrel-scope mounting geometry is all pretty square. Everything seems to be looking pretty good at the moment. One fundamental question: to lap or not to lap? (the locking lugs, that is) I am not inclined to do so at the moment.

One real-world question: bench shooting vs. field shooting. I currently am using a cobbled together shooting rest that started life as an automobile screw jack. It has served long and well for iron-sighted military rifles and such but trying to shoot 1/2 MOA off of an old car jack is, um, challengeing. What I need is some other way to support the rifle. My question is this: are there any substantial point-of-impact shifts associated with shooting of of, say, sandbags vs. a proper bench rest vs. a bipod vs. resting on a piece of log? Any bench tecnique recomendations to minmize or compensate for this?

-Tom
Eager to start cold-bore shot testing and documentation.

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, Sunny SC, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 21:07:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152) 

Bought a length of 1" EMT for lapping in my Mk4s when the SS gets here. Anybody need 8'of 1" EMT? HA!

Real curious to find out how square those rings will be on my Brookfield mount.

Anybody want a slightly used Springfield 2nd Gen scope mount? (CHEAP)

Still waiting to find out if anyone has any experience with the Premier Reticle Leupold Tactical 3x9 w/ mil-dots. Eh?

Spud; Out.
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, calisocialistfornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 21:39:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.209) 

For 30mm rings, have a machinist friend turn a 30mm bar for you if you want to do it right. Of buy a 30mm lapping bar.
mike s <mws@ecom.net>
Southern , Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 22:02:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.63) 

Thanks for the confirmation by actually going to the range to confirm the mil-dot pattern on this scope.

I was interested in one of these scopes as well but all this confusion situation made me loose what little confidence I allready had in Tasco to begin with.

I even went as far to call Tasco's so called "tech" line and talked to a mindless robot named Ahmed who told me the SS10X42 pattern was 1.96 mils between the dots.

When I questioned him as to why Tasc chose this pattern, he commented when this scope first came out there was no standardization as to the use of mil-dots (meaning 1 mil between dots) and that they employed three different reticles for the 10X42, 16X42,and 20X42 models.

He further stated that these models were on a close out basis and S.W.F.A. Inc. had them for decent prices.

When I got off the phone with him I only assumed that that was the end of it and the confusion.

It just goes to show that big firearms related companies are not offten staffed by enthusiasts like ourselves who would show enough interest to try their own products out as opposed to just regurgatating what they read in a product catalogue.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 23:02:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.96) 

Mike M., of some reknown. Man, I thought I had hit one of those porn links when I saw all the buttkissing here. Congrats, and send me a business card. No, really. Please.

What's all this Point of Impact with Keanu Reeves (wasn't that a Star Wars character? " Dammit, Chewie, we can get synthetic hemp from Keanu in the Stinkfist system.") I hope, if anyone makes this Godforsaken book into a movie, they get Gwyneth Paltrow to play Swagger. At least you don't expect her to end every sentence with "whoa" or "dude". How about Woopie Goldberg as the dog?

If you really want to read a military/war book, go get "All Quiet On The Western Front" or Hathcock's book.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 23:14:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.79) 

Is there any reason that I cant swap the target knobs on by Vari-X II 4x12 AO and rotate the scope 90 degrees in order to end up with the "windage" knob (formerly the elevation knob)on the left side of the rifle (aside from the L and R on the windage knob being upside-down)? It just seems to be that laying prone with the gun it would be easier to reach the windage if it was on the left-hand side.

By the manual, the Vari-X II has the same amount of adjustment on both axis:

"Max. Adj. Elv. & Windage @ 100 yards: 50in"

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in entirely too sunny, SC, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 23:35:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152) 

For all of us gun owners who owns either many guns or many expensive guns, what do you store it in?

This question has nothing to do about tactical shooting, sharp shooting or sniping but to do with securing our weapons in a safe and secure location. I am looking for a gun safe to store my rifles, pistals and ammo. Anyone out there with any recommendation for one?

Many thanks,

Darren
Semper Fi
I 3/12
Darren <Darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 00:39:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.11.221.192) 

I have been doing some looking myself. Liberty makes several with various features. The ones that catch our eyes have the double fire protection and are rated at a certain temperature for a certain period of time - ex: 1200 degrees for 30 minutes. I'm sure there are other brands. The prices for a decent sized safe that has a good fire rating seem to range from $1,000 upward. These are of course good for storage of other valuables (ie her jewelry)

Ken :)

ImpactArea <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 00:57:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.38) 

If you have an above mentioned stock, and want to custom fit it to
your self (no lube necessary (evil grin)), Sanding results in
a smooth finish: the spiderweb finish is about .001 thick.
Fiberglass WILL adhere to the stock (feild test report soon).

And if you have any artistic/mechanical ability, the fiberglass
is not really all that hard to work with (worked well my first time)
I feel that I've done a damfine job so far, and as I said, I'll
let everyone know how it holds up under fire and dragging thru dirt.

So far I've sanded it into a more comfortable right handed grip, and
built up the RH 3 finger area behind the trigger to lessen the angle.
Future plans include: raised cheek and length of pull.

Which brings me to my question of the hour:
What determines correct lenth of pull?

Very Excellent views on spotting scope vs. real scope usage.
This thread stalls my current purchase of spotting scope for now.
How do you make up for eye relief for a scope on a tripod?
Would one of those cheap rubber scope eyegards work?
Inquiring minds really do want to know.

Now that I've taken up so much space, for the REALLY important
question:
Where can I get a correspondence course to
become a "MASTER SNIPER" tm.?
heh

buk out....guilty of drinking with a keyboard........
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Damni'msweatinin, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 01:19:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.151.101) 

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
KY, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 01:39:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.215.71.31) 

http://www.tyko.com/index2.htm

Also, Nosler ballistic tips vs nosler partition. Thoughts, pros and cons, distance acuracy, expantion. Any thoughts ore info would help. Oh yeah, in 7mm rem mag.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Tryin to move from , maryland, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 02:01:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13) 

To Tom Re: field positions.
That is a good question and and the answer can be complicated. I have read that some guys swear that the rifle powder that you are using can cause point of impact shifts when changing positions. It seems that single base powders are better than double based powders.
The best way is to actually shoot from different positions and document the results for yourself. In order to do this you need to develop the skill in calling your shots from each postion. This thing has bit me in the butt more than once. Just today I shot in a match that required me to hit 5 claybirds offhand and then drop to a prone unsupported postion and shoot 5 more clay birds. I did well in the offhand and missed 4 out of 5 from the prone unsupported but each one of the clay birds that I missed was on call. My big mistake was that I did not know what my prone unsupported zero was. I never shot a rifle that way before. I always used a sling or some kind of rest. Today that was against the rules of the match. Live and Learn.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 02:44:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244) 

Now, Mr Kroger, about that Ruger in .270 ...

Chris
you got that TRG gear yet? I havent yet put the money down.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Monday, August 09, 1999 at 03:21:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71) 

Rough rule of thumb from my sometimes dimly remembered youth on length of pull. Take the bolt out, grasp the pistol grip area as if you intend to shoot, place the trigger finger comfortably on the trigger and bend the arm 90 degrees at the elbow. The end of the stock should just touch the inside of the bicep at the elbow bend. I need a little less for the short neck and heavy upper body. I tend to stretch to try to get proper eye relief. (ex-marine, sloped forehead and stooped shoulders).

Another Pat
another pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 04:26:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244) 

I learned from Lapua that unlike I stated before, Norma DOES NOT BELONG to the same ammo group as Lapua. Norma is part of Dynamit Nobel and the Swedish company that is in Nammo group is called Celsius.

So Norma and Lapua do not have any ties with each other. Still Lapua claims that their "new" rim specification is the official spec. and supposedly all .338 LM brass manufacturers should use only the new version. Of Norma´s version I do not know much, but it´s price in the USA seems to be quite decent for a speciality brass (115,95 USD/100 brass). In Finland I pay more for Lapua. BTW Dakota Arms loads their .338 LM/300 grain Sierra Matchking in Norma brass. The reasons for this are unknown to me. Probably price or availability has something to do with it.

Best regards,
Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 08:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65) 

I think it's too much talk about .2 or .5 moa rifle accuracy. The main thing is the accuracy of the complete system, shooter included. I'm very happy if I can get 5 shots inside 15cm/300m (6"/330yds) from different fieldtype shootingpositions, first shot prone with sling, second shot sitting in a bench with sandbags, etc. Things can get even more interesting if you clean the rifle one time during the 5 shot string. Then try to take the scope off and on during fireing. Next is using two different scopes. If you're still under 15cm you have a very good system. If you get down to 10cm don't change anything!

On the 20.aug. I'm going on a 10 day huntingtrip after raindeer. There is 30km yomping into the huntingarea wich is 200km square. Everything is above the treeline. Weather: sunshine, fog, rain, snow, etc. It's a nice test of any system!

I'll post the equpmentlist later. Not ready yet :-)

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 11:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33) 

“Your” length of pull is determined by several factors.
Hold the rifle or shotgun as you would in a normal unmounted position.
Lay the butt stock along your forearm.
Bend the elbow of your this arm to 90 degrees.
The maximum length of pull the recoil pad should just touch your upper arm.
Now put on a heavy shooting coat, bulletproof vest, tactical vest, backpack and all the junk you plan to carry.
Measure the thickness of all this stuff at your shooting pocket (where you mount the rifle into your shoulder)
Subtract the above number from the max length to get your working max.
I like a little shorter length of pull so I subtract one more inch.

How to become a master sniper:

Chant this mantra, “I am the MASTER SNIPER”. Then hit your self squarely in the forehead with round end of a ball peen hammer. Remember you only want to make your head swell not knock yourself unconscious.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Housotn, Texas, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 13:19:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80) 

1. In your opinion what are the most convincing arguments I can make for my state to devote more resources to getting our snipers up to speed? (This is a common problem for all sniper units is it not? SO this should be really juicy)

2. What kinds of training opportunities do you think I should explore, first for me to get more experience, and to train our future snipers?

There is alot to explore here so please lend a hand, military, law enforcement, civilian. Ideas is what I am looking for and thats what this site is about.

Thanks,
CHE
Che <Junglecat@msn.com>
Chicago , Illinois, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 13:29:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 153.34.221.188) 

I hereby dub thee The Zen Master of WAIF (Wrap Yo Ass in Fiberglass) or for short "Glas-Master" ;-)
I got one of them thar Brownells stock gauges for LOP'ing decisions Length is just but one facet of a good fit; thickness of stock, height of comb, drop at heel, and height of action in stock can all affect correct fit.

Che,

Dude you've found the right spot(read the archieves, and the entirety of the site too), keep posting and reading stuff from guys like Bowcher, Gooch, Ryan, and Mike the Un-dude just to name but a few of the many. We are humbled by their presence and comments.

Young Master Liles,
Whoa dude do you think Keanu is a bogus choice huh-huh? I think Rosie would be a better choice for the role of "Mike" heh-heh!

Tom Simpson,

The 90 degree trick on the scope is an oldie, too confusing for me.
K.I.S.S. is the guide for improvs.

Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 14:19:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.58) 

What is the thread pitch and length of the brass gouging screw?
Is it the turret caps?
Could it be replaced?

Not a flame, just an attempt to help out the brethren in the field.

Heikki & TorF,

Once again we learn from you thanks!

Jeff A,

Which E-mail are ya using ?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 15:50:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.46) 

Once that test is done also look at doing 30-40 cold single shot tets with Molly and without Molly. The uncoated bullets are more consistent with the first shot. The first one is the one that counts in our application. It is not High Power Match Shooting. Now if you tell me that you will leave your rifle fouled, think what it would be likje after a month in a bow in a SWAT Locker in a basement.

Torseten, I was perplexed by your email request. I have emailed the person you spoke directly and I will get an answer for you as soon as he gets back. My understanding as of two weeks ago is he will take care of your needs. I have heard nothing different, so I wonder if you have current info.

Undude/Mike
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 16:56:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.158) 

Scott Hannah
hannah@slip.net

Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net>
Los Gatos, COMMIEFORNIA, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 19:20:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.116) 

Is this a good start, is there anything I should do differently? What bipod should I consider (height?). I want to slowly mature as a serious shooter without getting in over my head and having someone feel the need to tromp me back to my humble beginings...I have no problem paying my dues and doing it the right way, I just need to know what the right way is

Jim - I can be reached at "debjim@bellatlantic.net"
Jim Mitchell <debjim@bellatlantic.net>
New Jersey, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 19:44:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1) 

First off, I changed my mind on the PSS and called the gun shop and ordered it. Reason being....what if I like the PSS stock? If I ordered the VS I would be getting another stock anyway and would never know about the PSS. Nobody I know around here has one I can try. If I don't like it I can still get another stock (and sell the PSS stock at a gun show).

Secondly, a rehash on a question that didn't get answered.

Mr. Ryan and Mr. Gooch, how much will it cost for non-competitors at Carlos II? The cost won't be a factor in whether or not I go. I just want to be prepared for it.

Thirdly, a new question.

Does powder distribution whithin the cartridge affect accuracy? If a cartridge is not filled completely the powder could theoretically be distributed uneavenly from round to round. It could all be at one end or the other of the case or even leveled out and evenly distributed. This would then suggest (theoretically) that varying pressures would be applied to the top and bottom of the bullet, thus, pushing the bullet out of alignment with the bore.

If this is a moronic question you may throw your empty beer cans at me in jest.

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
Alabama, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:03:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.168) 

I've got the "Lou-poled" 12-40X60 and for my intended use I don't want anything else. Yes it's heavy, cumbersome and dosn't balence well on a small tripod. It also "Sucks!" as a target support unit for just the reason that Bolt states, too many dots on the page to tell which are bullet hits, for this I still use my Kowa TSN-1. However....the mil dots are on the focal plane and therefor are in register no matter what magnification you are using. It has excilent eye relief and very good clearity. Keeping in mind that I am a cop and consider a good stalk to be one where I turn my lights and siren off just before arriving on the scene, I don't have to carry it very far let alond drag it through the muck and mire for a week or more.

I tend to work alone and therefor because "Observation and Inteligence" are my primary duty, I find the extra magnification to be quite helpful. I also have a Gitzo G126 camera tripod with ball head that allows me to set up in an awsome number of configurations to suit almost any situation. I also have a "Leo-pulled" 6.5-20x 50 W/luminous mil dots mounted on my Remington fire stick that substitutes nicely (with proper precautions [Sgt. Mike]) for a spotting scope in a pinch and again I find the extra magnification to be an advantage for observation.

I tried the "Loop-Hold" tripod and it really, Really, REALLY S-U-C-K-S!!! Now the little calapsable unit, the one that the legs store inside each other, works for me on top of my cruiser and in fact if you don't deploy the two smaller diameter legs it even seems to work better, just keep the feet screwed into their storage positions and hold the one main leg with your off hand for quick panning.

All my gear fits into a drag bag that I got from Creedemore Sports and the spotting scope is in a soft cover form London Bridge Trading Co.

BTW: I have a really good deal on a "Lee-pooled" tripod if anyone is interested.

Un-Dude:

Great Web Page, I may just have to get myself one of those slings.

Your room is still avaliable for the Hathcock shoot, bring extra ammo, I feel a side match or two comming on. Oh, and don't forget to bring your Ruger "Master Sniper" rifle

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Recovering from an 86 hour work week in, Beautiful, Calm, Quiet but DRY West Virginia, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:05:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.141) 

“Does powder distribution within the cartridge affect accuracy?”
Yes.
In a perfect world the bullet is seated just off the lands and the base of the bullet slightly compresses the powder. Think of it like a candle that burns really fast. If the candle is not consistent it will burn less uniformly than a cylindrical candle.

With a full charge of powder the primer ignites the powder granules furthest from the bullet first and as the bullet and unburned powder travel down the barrel more and more of the powder is consumed.

If the case is less than full the “flame jet” from the primer encounters gas pockets and does not ignite the powder uniformly.

When the case is half full of powder the bullet moves down the barrel and then begins to slow down and a pressure wave and unburned powder builds behind the bullet. When that powder begins to burn it ruptures the barrel.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80) 

Need to hire someone to shoot the high angle fire comp for me, scared of heights!

Anyone have a majic wand? I need a "poof" to get ready for this match. Shit I need more than one poof. Haven't even got to the 1000 yard range yet!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 21:20:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.41) 

still workin at it...
indoors since it's rainin...

before you ask, yes my wife lets me...

buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Pourinlikea-buk-et, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 23:52:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.149.109) 

Torsten,
What about the Viking Mind Meld. Grasp your reciepent by the forearms and slam you head into his.

Roger
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 23:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.130.177) 

If a person owns a good bit of property, lets say 6 or more acres. They have posted no tresspassing signs judiciously all around the property. They then later have a problem with armed tresspassers. Legal ramifications of defending your property with lethal force? Just to make it interesting, the property is out in the boonies, say a good half hour or more for police response.

Question was posed to me by a friend, and it intrgues me.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
lookin for more land in , maryland, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 06:07:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14) 

This is just my opinion, but more than likely any jury as well.

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 06:43:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.40) 

Very good points indeed. I had considered that in my answers to my friend, but the question arises in response, what if it is a particular person who has been warned several times and gotten beligerant? I suppose this is a moot question, as it would be easier to attempt to get him to leave, or detain for police arrest. Could be with tirednes comes lack of thougth proccess.

On another note, has anyone had a chance to try out/ experiment witht eh new remmington 300 ultra mag round? I am interested to know about the capabilities of reloads and accuracy on it. A good friend of mine is ordering a rem 700 bdl in that caliber, and plans to accurize and accessorize it. He wants me to help him to handloads for it, considering factory loads are running about $1.50 a shot.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
need a new car in, Maryland, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 07:49:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14) 

I think shooters should look for rifles that's easy too shoot from different positions. One of the easiest rifles to control I've had was a Steyr SSG Match. The receiver and barrel was somewhat heavier than the sniperversion. The rifle had a wooden stock that has been copied by McMillan for their sniperrifles.

These are some of the factors that are important for me to get an accurate system:

-Stockdesign (straightline recoil, vertical pistolgrip, etc.)

-Recoil (as little as possible.)

-Triggerquality (twostage matchtriggers are easiest to control)

-Locktime

When it comes to shooting small groups the regular sandbagged/rest bench is best. However, to get good groups from different positions I've always had to put my hand between the rifle and rest. This seemes to even out the difference in bounce in the rifle when shooting from sandbags, fenceposts, etc. Doing this also means that when shooting prone and kneeling with a sling I have the same POI. (There must be no tension between the sling and the slingswivels when shooting) Bipods are out of the question for me. I can never get a highpowered rifle to shoot at the same POI with bipods. I use some other form of rest and put my hand in between. A shootingglove evens things out even more. Gloves are standard issue most of the year were I live :-)

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 09:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33) 

How could I have forgotten "The Man with a Million questions"! ;-)
Sorry dude, and please don't strangle me with those Pop-eye sized forearms from scope lapping. You Zen Master Scope Lapper dude.

Bill R,

Better be REAL careful with that thar Depity....

His entire rig is set up juuust right, I know, I dun seen it, and his loading room is most definately to die for! Now all he needs is that Un-Dude Sniper sling(Basic Ninja Black of course).

Mikey, don't let Dave fool you, he HAS seen one in the flesh, the purple/yellow polka dotted one you sent me for my 700P/.308

Speaking of Depity,

Whats this I hear about you removing the side mirrors from your Crown Vic....... Next you'll be tearing off the seat covers, or sumfin. ;-)

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 12:29:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.54) 

Oschaf. Balthasar Woll

"Ende"

T
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 12:44:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.46) 

Thanks!
Tim Crabb <tbcrabb@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.69.33.13) 

Good advice, and thanks. Personally, I think it is good to see some simple reality here on this site, for those few occasions that really need it. (this being one of the few, of course.)

One's own thoughts or feelings sure can get misconstrued but the facts still remain the same. Reality Bites, more for some than others.

I only wanted to say that so that those of us here that do regularly read or post do not want to advocate the wrongs (potential) of others.

This is still the best site, and I look forward to reading whenever I get the chance, though my missus has other thoughts....lol.... all them damn "honeydew's"... ha ha ha.

oh well, back at 'er.

All, there are quite a few owners of the "famed or flamed" Ruger's up here in the north, and I would like to hear your reasons as to why they are "no good", any comments?

graveyard shift is over, its bedtime.
Sean <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
Mackenzie, B.C, Canada. - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.197.8) 

The H.S. Mags conversion and mags are made of stainless steel and covered with a black epoxy finish. It still looks great after a few months of rough use.

What happened to the plumber? Is he to go thr route of the Master Sniper?

Undude/Mike Slow speed high drag
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:39:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.31) 

come on TorF

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
GE - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 15:03:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.46) 

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 17:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.103.138) 

Wie bitte?

BTW: They are raising the Ju88 in september.

TorF :-)

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:06:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Has anyone looked into a way to load bolt actions using M-14 stripper clips? I think something can be made to fit flush with the action and allow the stripper clips to be inserted at a 30 to 45 degree angle (to clear the scope).

Does anyone know when and why stripper clips for bolt actions fell out of favor? I think it was around the time magazine fed machine guns came into common use and the bolt gun went from a battle rifle to a sniper rifle.

Looking for a better way but maybe just got lost.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, Good old USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

it seems nobody has answered you on the recoil calculation yet, so I'll quickly do so.

The short answer is:
...
Then I realised that there's no direct short answer, and I'll have to type up part of this article I'm looking at here. Errata are mine:

START QUOTE:
Newton's third law of motion states that any action has an equal and opposite reaction, and this refers to the momentum (mass x velocity or MxV). To determine the momentum of the rifle in its reaward motion, we must determine the amount of opposite momentum (exiting the muzzle, and known as muzzle ejecta). This is not a simple matter of multiplying the bullet's wieght (mass) by its velocity, for the bullet is not the only thing propelled from the muzzle: the expanding gases set up by the burning powder also exit the muzzle, and this gas has weight and causes a "rocket" effect at the muzzle. So the bullet's momentum has to be added to the powder-gas's momentum, the latter being calculated by multiplying the weight of the powder charge by the exit velocity of the gas (this formula assumes a practical average for the powder gas's muzzle escape velocity of 5200fps). For this formula, the mass of both the bullet and the powder must be converted to pounds (because the rifle's weight is expressed in pounds), which is done by dividing the grain weight of each by 7000 (there are 7000 grains to the pound).

Let's take the typical 30-06 load: 180gr bullet at 2700fps, using 52gr of powder. The momentum of the total muzzle ejecta is calculated as follows:

 180   2700
---- x ---- + 52 x 5200
7000   7000

= 69.428 + 38.628

= 108.056

Now, we want to arrive at the (equal and opposite) momentum of the rifle. Momentum = mass x velocity (MxV). Let us assume a rifle mass of 8.5 pounds. How then, do we arrive at the rifle's velocity, in order to calculate the momentum? Well, Newton's third law insists that the momentum of the muzzle ejecta (108.056) is equal to that of the rifle, so we simply put it into the form of an equation:

108.056 = 8.5 x V

Therefore:
    108.056
    ------- = V
      8.5

Therefore V (rifle velocity) = 12.71 fps

Knowing this, we can calculate the recoil energy of the rifle. The formula used is:

E = MxV^2 / GC

where:
E = kinetic energy;
M = mass (weight) of the rifle in pounds;
V = velocity of the rifle in feet per second; and
GC = the gravitational constant whic, on this planet, is 64.32.

(Just by the by, if you multiply 64.32 by 7000 you'll get 450240. Recognize that figure? It's your divisor in the formula calculating bullet energy - because you work in grains for that. We're in pounds here, remember, which is why we divided the bullet weight by 7000 earlier on).

E = M x V^2
    -----
     GC

E = 8.5 x 12.71 x 12.71
    -------------------
          64.32

E = 21.35 ft/lbs

This is called "free recoil energy" because it assumes the rifle is suspended in space, which of course it isn't when you fire it, but odn't let that worry you - this is only for the purpose of comparing one rifle with another in identical "circumstances".
END QUOTE

This is not the full article, I have just taken part out of the middle. He ends with recoil figures for the .375H&H and the .378Weatherby (this is a hunting magazine), and then the following is his last paragraph:
"For a velocity gain of only 13.7% in the Weatherby, you are suffering a 64,6% increase in recoil. Makes you think, doesn't it?"

One point he makes early on is that you will find different formulae in different sources. The difference between them is the factor at which the powder weight is to be factored into the formula. One says it is 1.5, another says 1.75, and the one used, from "A-Square Reloading Manual" says 1. Then also the average of the powder-gas's muzzle escape velocity is different for different sources. This figure will vary according to calibre, case capacity, bore capacity, powder type, primer, etc., but all will take one figure and use that.

The important issue is that, whichever one you choose, stick to that for all your calculations. Whether your favourite rifle/load combination belts you with 46 or 52 ft/lbs of recoil energy is immaterial, what matters is that for your old favourite the figure is 46 and your new toy hits you with 60 - thus you will be comparing all your rifles/loads/whatever on the same footing.

Hope this helps (and I'm NOT going to read for errata, I'm too lazy now - take them as they come). Let the comments roll!

Marius

Oh yes, the article comes from MAN/Magnum, a South African hunting/firearms magazine. April 1999 issue, page 32.
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.15.184.98)

"Master Class Sports" at 203-775-6820 has the stripper clip adaptors that screw on the receiver, and will also machine stripper clip slots in your receiver like the Winchester Target rifles, and the Rem 40-XB repeaters...
It is run by Moe DeFino for those that know 1000yd shooters.
They also do mag conversions for the M14 and M16 mags in bolt action rifles (for those that say "Twenty shots, one kill!!).

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:22:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.29)

thanks again
Andy
Andy <arlinthicum@mindspring.com>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.14.117.33)

As far as Rosie being the dog, I think the whole project will be a dog. (Movie of Point of Impact.) Man, I'm just happy I got it at the lyberry rather than bought it.

Hondo, Once you have roached all the rifling out of your barrel testing loads, get a new barrel screwed on and stick with MK or Hornadays. All the legwork is done and publshed for the .308, brother.
I understand, though. The male gene makes us do this stuff. "If it works, take it apart and find out why."

My $.02 on storage. First, don't tell anyone what you have. (So much for that) Now, rip up the floor in your closet and stash 'em in the subfloor or between the joists. Then, put a gun safe full of surplus Mausers and new Weatherbys on top of this. Any theives will think they've hit the motherlode and not dig any further for those Holiest of all Remingtons & Gummint .45s.

Oh, I've been the youngest Liles for 35 years now.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 23:20:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

Once upon a time, Little Red Riding Hood's mother (being concerned about the increase in violence in rural America) gave Little Red a .45 ACP for protection. Little Red kept this pistol in her basket......... One summer day while on the way to her grandmother's house, a big bad wolf jumped out from behind a tree and howled "I'm going to screw your brains out!!" ...........
Little Red pulled out her pistol from the basket and calmly replied: "Oh no you're not, you're going to eat me like the story says"..........

------------------------------------BigGunn----------------------------------------------
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country, PA, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 23:26:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

After you hug your kid tonight, go hug you guns. Me thinks things are not looking good. I wish these damn people would stop shooting people that can't shoot back. Notice the bastards never walk onto a shooting range and start blasting away. Sorry had to get it off my chest.

Where do I get 5, 308 blanks?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 00:20:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.31)

Okay, so now I have a 700P that seems to be fundamentalty sound. It now has about 40 rounds through it since it was last cleaned (plus whatever rounds Remington may or may not have allegedly run through it). I intend to start documenting my first rounds downrange to check just where the rifles cold bore zero is with my standard handload. Current thought it to get one of those little waterproof notebooks like US Cav sells and start stapling groups cut out of targets next to my notations and keep a running log in my Eagle stock pouch(along with various Allen and Torx wrenches. I now also have all the cool tools for cleaning said 700P (big honkin' Dewey coated rod, Stoney Point bore guide and all that).

So, whats the CW on how to procede? Do I go ahead and clean the thing each time and confirm zero from a cold, *clean* bore each time, shoot it X-number of rounds between cleanings and reconfirm upon cleaning...what? I know that the 700Ps el-cheapo barrel has a rep for fouling quickly and being hard to clean, but I cant quite swing a new Hart tube at the moment so bear with me. :) Back in my service rifle days I just used to clean it every other match and had a thing called "sighters" to get me up and running when starting out with a clean bore. Alas, when hunting game of any type such is not an option...

Thanks:

-Tom

Oh, and as a PS: whats the hot ticket in .308 brass for precision work? I am thinking Lapua or IMI at the moment. I have a hundred pieces of Norma new in box but would like more, and not at Normas price. :)
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in slightly cooler, but still sunny SC, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 00:45:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

I do not advocate shooting trespassers, although the thought has come to my mind. What the West Virginia Supreme Court has said about the use of deadly force is this: "You may use whatever force is necessary but no more force than was necessary to stop a violent attack."

If you are holding someone at gun point when I arrive I may just arrest both of you and let the Magistrate sort it out. After all he gets paid better than I do. I definetly am not going to debate the fine points of the law with someone holding a gun.

There is no provision in the law (West Virginia Code) that allows you to use deadly force, it is left to the discression of the Prosicuting Attorney, the Grand Jury and/or 12 of your neighbors.

Have your friend contact the local law (Sheriff's Deputy, sheriffs are elected and might not know anything about the law, State Police or local Police Officer) and find out what his options are "within the law".

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Happy to turn the AC off in, Marvalously Cool West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 02:11:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.143)

Thanks.
orlanod_5 <omega_1@dejanews.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 03:27:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.97.9.192)

Next, Darrell I received the spotting scope today. Thanks again! It will be very useful this weekend at SMTC.

PeteeeR Can I tell Hondo how to load bullets??? Can I can I can I Hhhuuuuhhh? Hondo thats pointy side out. This weekend peteR. Bee there with the lovely Mrs. peteR.

"Doc" Holloway: Hope this short note finds you in the tranquil and peaceful serentity in the arms of the one you love. HOpefully your wife wont find out. Now go do those chores which you were avoiding doing while at SMTC. Hope you had a safe trip back.

That goes for you too, Tony.

Lastly the question of the evening is: If two people are shooting the same bullets (lets use 168 grain Sierra, for example) and one bullet is the standard copper jacket and the other is moly coated. What would you estimate the velocity difference to be, provided all other items were constant, i.e. primers, exact powder weights, same cases, etc. Ok you brainy wannabes now is the time to shine.

Marius: I have one question about the recoil formulations which you enlightened us about and the question is "HUH?"

Al B. Thanks again for the come up table which you provided for me. They were a great help. I genuinely have to say THANKS and that is difficult for me knowing you are from New Yawk.

ANd Finally to Mike the UnDude. Thank you for sending the ssling out to SMTC. I am looking forward to receiving it whe I get there this weekend.

Oh lastly, Depity Dave. You can not compare laws in West Virginia with laws throughout the United States. Most people in the rest of the United States are people, but in West Virginny, damn, Ill let people draw their own conclusions. Tell me Im wrong. And I did actually se a 7-11 store in Keyser and couldnt help but think how many times it was robbed.

Take care everyone!!

al o.

Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Standing here in Reverence and Awe in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 03:58:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.53)

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 04:25:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.6.99)

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
NY, NY, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 04:32:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.6.99)

Thanks for the input. The question was an acedemic one, it came up in a conversation and neither of us new the correect legal answer. Both of us aggreed that to just shoot someone for being on your land is a little unethical, but wanted to know of the legal ramifications.
Dreaded reloading question-

Rock chucker Vs Progressive. I will mostly be using it for magnum caliber rifle loads, and some 45 acp. Some ppl I have talked to have suggested the single station rock chucker is best for the magnum loads, and frankly the startup price difference is substancial.

Question for those military/Alphabet soup agency trained snipers-

I know that the training for this spends a lot of time on knowing your rifle and rifle marksmanship, but how much emphasis do they put on handgun marksmanship issues? It would seem to me that this would be important, as if somehow the sniper does encounter a hostile at close quarters, he/she would have to rely on that handgun to do the trick.

Quickbow

Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
frustratedin, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 05:08:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13)

Thanks for the well wishes. I liked the LR I course and I'm sure I'll like the LR II that I've convinced myself to go for the LR III course in Sept. If not for anything but just for the practice and the aquaintances. It's a good feeling to know that my hand loads really reach out with consistency and that my ballistic computer was dead on for the come-ups. Those Berger VLDs really build your confidence. Now it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice. See you next week.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 11:59:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Do you have any first hand knowledge of Nightforce´s newest scope
Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 ? This model has parallax adjustment like Leupold Mark4 and LR models. It has 95 MOA adjustment range for elevation and adjustment knobs a little bit like Mark4 M3, but with 1/4 MOA clicks. It probably has lit reticle, but it is not to be seen in the pictures.

I have a regular 5.5-22x56 with mil-dots, so I pretty much know what the scope is capable of. I am interested in this new versions ruggedness, usability of adjustment knobs, how well the parallax adjusment works and so forth. All comments based on knowledge and/or first hand experience are wellcome.

I know all about older, crappy Nightforces, the Hakko connection and all that. Spare it. This new model, although size wise huge, seems to be quite a scope for long range work. Leupold Mark4´s are probably tougher if you have to use them as a hammer, though. In civilian use I think this NXS scope has lots to offer. At least BGS in Germany, whose one special group is the GSG-9, has bought "regular" 5.5-22x56 mil-dot scopes, so they can not be too crappy, although GSG-9 and BGS also have tight budgets nowadays.

All comments, that widen my and other people´s knowledge of Nightforce are wellcome. Spare me the Shepherd/Nightforce/TascoSS/Burris Black Diamond/any non-Leupold is/are p.o.s. comments. I like Leupolds too, but they still lack at times some things I find usefull. BTW I shoot for fun, not to save hostages or to shoot bad guys, so I can afford to use "too big scopes" non-orthodox calibers, suppressors and the like. Anyways also negative experiences are wellcome too.

Best regards,

Hexa
Heikki <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 12:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Pat L.
Hope you and Skully made it back OK, it was a pleasure and a lot of fun hope you make it back next year. Us "Old Guys" need to stick togeather(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 13:20:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

That made my night a just a little better

Remember to say collective Prayers for the kids in L.A.

Chao

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 13:28:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.59)

Shooter, in the case you speak of something called "Transfered Intent" applies. Basically if you do something that leads to the gun battle you are held responsible for all outcomes. It is the same if you lead the police on a high speed chase and someone crashes as a result. This is pretty basic law but by the time the jury has heard the poor me criminals side you just never see it exercised to the full extent it was intended to. Such as a Murder one is dropped to Man Slaughter.

I have a question for all of you. How many see the need for a shooting sling on a sniper rifle. I have always used one for quick shots and when I couldn't get anyother position, but I understand that some of you carry enough stuff to build positions no matter what the case?

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
calif, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 14:28:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.54)

I know of no position that is not built stronger with a shooting sling. Being a learner though, I am always open to hearing why people who have a choice to make the position stronger [ie., high power competitors] would choose not to. I think the problem you will see is simply changing old habits. People who do not shoot with a sling don't think you need it, people who have never taught proper technique with a sling won't take the time to learn to use it so they can then teach it...much easier to just tell folks you don't need it.

When I changed to shooting with your sling, as opposed to my old "best" way, I honestly had just finished re-reading the book on Carlos...funny, when he had the choice or freedom to use whatever made him best at 1,000, he used a sling. I took this as a lesson.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 15:40:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 16:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Dear CongressPerson / Senator

When anti gunners call for new restrictions in the aftermath of the most recent shootings in L.A., can you explain to them and me why the suspected shooter was not already in jail ?

The suspect was already convicted of a crime involving a deadly weapon and should be in jail – why did the government not pursue and punish him ?

Respectfully,
your name

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 16:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

Thanks...

Mark
Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 17:48:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Who said hate is Evil. Hate, anger and all the other emotions are part of what makes us human. When all that is left but the dying hate can make a person wipe the blood off and continue to fight even though he knows that he is doomed. You really can’t understand love without having really hated something. Suppression on the other hand is evil in that it robs people of their independence and liberty. When you suppress thoughts and ideas you murder creativity and when you suppress dreams you murder hope.

Dillon’s “Blue Press” reprinted the “Coffin Rock” article again. I found it was worth a second read .

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 21:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Regarding reloading for the 300 ultra mag: There was a discussion on the Shooters.com reloading board about this cartridge. Aparently Remington is not selling cases. I checked a couple catalogs to verify, and it seems to be true. It looks like at this point, you will have to buy factory ammo just to get the cases.
Emcon5 <emcon5@hotmail.com>
Fremont, CA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 00:06:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.76.217.194)

The Fifty Cal Shooters Assoc site is down for repairs and looks
like it may turn into a members only site... bummer.

Please point me north and set me loose... thanks.
buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Wadin'downin, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 00:08:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.146.30)

Andrew/2/5 Hog. Welcome aboard. I was a member of 3/5 STA back in the mid 80's. If you want some advice on the sniper competitions available today give me a ring at (304)446-5526 at the Storm Mountain Training Center www.stormmountain.com. Some are good, some are cheezier than hell.

Al O. Thaks for the kudo's. Your sling is here and I am doing my best to empty my fridge of the MGD as we speak.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 01:25:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.143)

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 02:56:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Typically,I would fire 1 CB shot and then a 3 round group shot so I could see where my CB shot was in relation to my group.Then I would clean the weapon let it cool down and do it again.It is important that you have your weapon clean when you shoot your cold bore.consistency is one of the most important things when it comes to shooting.IF your weapon is clean the first cold bore and dirty when you shoot your next cold bore more than likely your cold bore shots are going to be differnt.The whole purpose for the cold bore is to know what dope to dial on your weapon for your cold bore and then what dope to dial on for your follow up shots.It probably isnt that important if your just out to have fun with your weapon.But if your on any real world Op you better have your cold bore down
Anthony Warren <Cacall2@aol.com>
modesto, ca, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 03:07:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.179)

Ill give you a call.Id like to be turned on to some good comps.Where are you guys located at any way?
Anthony WArren <Cacall2@aol.com>
Modesto, Ca, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 03:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.179)

Does anyone have information on how deep the Clymer pull through .308 finish chamber reamer sold through Brownells cuts the throat? How far would 168MK's need to be seated? Thanks.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
Kalifornia,, Home of firearms comfiscation!, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 04:02:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.150)

BTW, am I the last person left shooting a Winchester? (I won't even tell y'all that it's a 30-06!) =)

Thanks for the help.

Out.
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
just a wide spot in the road,, KY, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 04:19:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.44)

Unless you're shooting unlimited class benchrest or reacting to near ambush, always shoot with a sling (MOUT included).

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 05:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.159)

"shat at..."? You're killing me here! LOL
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 06:07:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.159)

No, your not the last one shooting Winchesters... I'm shooting 2 M70 Sharpshooters and 2 M70/V's in .308, and just sold my second PSS, to start building another (in 30-06!!). There are many other's on this site that are shooting M70's in tactical set ups...

But since they don't have anything to complain or bitch about, they just sit back and listen to the others complain about bad chambers, bad barrels, off center bedding, bad throats, rough rifling, long throats and short magazine boxes, bad feeding... same ol' - same ol'.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 10:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.113)

http://www.shadow.net/~mwg/

... for Winchester LA bases.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 10:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.113)

Back to the cold bore again. Me questions why after cleaning the weapon at the end of the day you don't fire a fouling shot to leave the weapon in a once fired, non-cold bore condition.

Reasoning........I just started working with the cold bore deal. For the last 2 Saturdays, I have unofficially fired cold bores(unofficially since 3 of the rifles have less than 100 rounds through them and are not broken in as defined by most of you here). On the average the first shot was from 1/2" to 1 1/2", depending on the rifle, out of my standard grouping. The condition of the rifle prior to the shot was final patch with Breakfree followed by 2 clean patches and the stored in the safe. The next shot landing within the standard grouping.

During my standard 5 shot cleaning procedure while practicing, the last thing I do is run an alcohol patch followed by 2 clean patches. The first shot with the rifle in this condition does improve but usually does not stay within the standard group.

With the frequency of shooting most of you do, would it harm the bore to leave it in a fired condition? If my mission were to correctly place the first shot, I believe that I would have more confidence if I was guessing if the cold bore was going to be 1/2 to 1 1/2 out.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 11:46:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Pablito,
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about those factory Remingtons(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 11:50:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Your last sentence about the Cold Bore Shot (CBS) said it all. That's exactly why we plot the CBS, so we can make first round hits with confidence. Any follow-ups will be within your "standard grouping".
I don't think it is wise to store the rifle with a fouled bore, as it is likely to cause rust/corrosion/pitting, and ruin a good barrel. There is an article written here at SC called "Rifle testing for Dummies" that really covers the CBS very well. I think Scott wrote it. It is well worth the time to read it.

Best Regards,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 12:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.82)

On the Winchester LA Picattiny Base.

You might want to try US Optics. They are on the hot links.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 12:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Scott's article can be found under "Articles and Commentary". I used this article to test my rifle/scope setup and plot the CBS. Very helpful in establishing just how accurate the rifle is, and just where that CBS will go.
Also, check out some of the comments on the CBS on the "Hot Tips and Cold Shots" here at SC. Much wisdom there for sure.

Best of Luck to You,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 12:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.82)

Jerry I wondered when you would no longer hold your tongue about the Remington PSS DM Mags. Pure crap is the only way I can talk about them. I think the HS is the way to go. The one they sent me is as good as I have seen. Not one malfunction in two months of hard use.

I have to down size my Ghillie Suit. Going to go from a one piece to a two piece so Rod Ryan doesn't have to decide to do CPR or let me die on his course and competition.

Pete, I got the new "Econo Supports" very light weight. I will check them oyut and get back to you.

Time to go and shoot that McMillan Rifle. If it shoots as well as the HS Precision and NorCal rifles, I will have three bench rest quality rifles to use. I can not believ how good the two so far have shot. I keep taking them thinking today is the day they will go over 1/2 minute but they still shoot 1/4 to 1/2 all day dirty or clean.

MIke
Mike M <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 15:13:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.54)

Tony,
Thanks for the link

Anybody had any experience with the McMillan M40A1 stock? Found one for the Model 70 for $250.

Thanks again,

Out.
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
out in the sticks,, KY, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 15:59:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.43)

There are no sloped rings or Picatinny rails for these rifles off-the-shelf and this is a nuisance to some. A good solution to overcome this lack of equipment and to avoid expensive custom made bases is as follows:

1) Buy one set of original Sako/Tikka Optilock scope rings from a gunshop. At least shops selling these rifles can obtain these rings easily, some shops may not want to bother. They are made by Sako, so quality is good. Buy that model with a separate base (there are Optilock rings without a separate base but they are less sturdy and this tip is not suitable for them) in proper height (low, medium or high depending on your scope, the dealer can help in choosing the right one). BTW these rings are available for 1" and 30 mm scope bodies in stainless and blued steel. For tactical use blued steel is preferable, although matte black would be better. Bowflake can cure all finishes to matte if you want to, so it is not a big deal.

2) Remove the base from the ring (do this for the ring that will be the "aft" ring i.e. that one that is closest to you when you shoot). You need a millimeter based hexwrench for this. Any inch-based wrench will destroy the machine screw.

3) Take a thin strip of steel ( 1mm equals to 25 MOA or more, 0,8 mm is close to 20 MOA), cut a piece that is the same size as the base plate and drill a 7 mm hole through it in the proper place. Put this piece of steel between the base and ring and screw the unit back together. You now have a sloped ring set. Calculations for the exact thickness of this shim must be made for your rifle with the scope first installed in a normal way and sighted in for 100 yards/meters /whatever you like. The exact calculations for the shim thcikness must be based on YOUR rifle and scope. From www.riflebarrels.com you can find the calculation methods.

4) OK you now have a sloped/shimmed ring set. "This torques the scope out of straight, you fool !" shouts somebody in the back row. Nope, it isn´t so with Optilock rings because Optilock rings have a plastic/composite ring inside the steel rings, just like Burris Signature and these rings allow for the scope to be at an angle inside the rings without any torque (within reason, of course) coming to the scope. I would prefer to have Signature type composite rings like Burris has in different off-center thicknesses, but there might be some patent issues at stake. And Burris does not offer Signature rings for Sako/Tikka.

5) Install the scope and sight it in. You´ll see that now you have more elevation adjustment range left for the longer ranges.

Is this the best possible way ? Of course not because the plastic/composite ring may not be able to tolerate nuclear radiation, chem warfare and other not-so-nice stuff that military equipment must be able to tolerate. Still Picatinny rails for Sako are available only through custom shops and their price will not be cheap. For civilians this is the way to go with Sako/Tikka rifles.

In any case for about an hour (or two) of work any Tikka or Sako owner can make with a few basic handtools sloped rings that won´t destroy the scope without practically any extra investment in addition to the price of regular rings. And these modified sets do work "as advertised". My friends have several sets in their TRG-21´s, 338 Lapua Magnums and I will make my own in short order. Now from my 60 MOA adjustment range already 24 are eaten up when I sight-in for 150 meter range without shimming. With 20 MOA shim, I´ll have 55 MOA left and that is nice to have in a 338 Lapua Magnum.

A better way would be to grind material away from the top of the front ring base and the calculations are the same. This requires new bluing and for the remowal of metal you need proper machining tools AND skills. That method is optically better looking, but then your ring set is then dedicated to your present rifle only. I read somwhere that Tikka/Sako rings cost around 100 USD/pair everywhere, so I would not like to make permanent modifications. The long method above is nice in the way that you can allways change things back to original if you choose to do so.

Sorry for the long post but I thought some Tikka/Sako owners might want to know about this method. It works, it is cheap and it is easy to do. What else could tou possibly want.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 18:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.16)

HK,
Yes,it is H&S precision and you will have to buy the conversion kit from them to take their mags. You will need to get the new trigger guard and floor plate ass.from H&S for the H&S mags. They are suppose to be coming out with 10 rounders also. Hope this helps you out.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 19:41:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

John, check this gunsmith out.

Scott Medesha
10326 Adobe Road
Apache Junction
Arizona 85220
(602) 986-5876
These bases come in two sizes , the long one is 8 inches and is milled for
long range to get extra elevation adjustment and is called the long range
version. He also makes a shorter one which is 6.5 inches called the tactical model
but this one is not milled to add elevation adjustment.

Torf, your email did not work for me.
I am not sure I understood what you meant by "(There must be no tension between the sling and the slingswivels when
shooting)" What would be the point of using a sling at all then?
Please elaborate!

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 20:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 21:47:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

The idea of a match-sling is to lock the supporting arm in fireingposition. Shooting prone the sling is fixed with a loop as high as possible, near the shoulder, around the upper arm. The the hand is then locked in the sling in a similar loop(doublesling/clamp) between the thumb and indexfinger. The sling is then adjusted in such a way that the upper and lower arm and the sling makes a triangle. Doing this you don't have to "hold" the rifle yourself. The shooter can "relax" because the sling holds the arm in shootingposition. If the matchsling also doubles as a carriengsling the part of the sling between the hand and forward slingswivel and the rear part between the upper arm and the rear swivel should be loose and have no tension when shooting. Properly set up the left arm acts like a rest for the rifle.

MikeM can elaborate on this and he speaks english :-)
TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 22:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Apparently, someone has forgotten that 'shot' is the correct past tense of 'shoot'. 'Shat' is the past tense of '$#!t'. (for the delicate ears of the readers, the last word has been encoded. Ya'll know what it is, though.)

The sentence rendered earlier should be:
"We were shot at as we handed the melon over the fence to Charlie, who shat in his pants."

If indeed you were shat at, either get out of the bottom of the latrine or request that the 'shatter' cut down on his Tex-Mex intake and point it in a safe direction.

On the other hand, writing in a after-action report that you were shat at would certainly lend it a different meaning.

Enough on this topic.

Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn., USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 22:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.28.97)

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 00:40:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.238.142.188)

Has any one put the Bushnell 800 or 1000 laser range finder up against the Nikon 800 LRF. Since they are all around the same price, which one is the better buy for the money.
Many Thanks
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:10:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.73)

Some one E mailed me about a competition in Sac.on the first sunday of the month.I accidently erased the E mail.Please send the info again.Sorry for the bother.
Anthony Warren <cacall2@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:33:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.39)

All you sling fans. I wonder about sitting in a classic NRA position with a tight sling, holding. Does it not get a little uncomfortable? I shoot with a sling (1903 style) quite often, and can't seem to go more than about 5 minutes or so without having to wake up my arm. It does work, though. Is a cuff the answer or is it one more piece of kit to worry over? Thanks for any advice.

For what it's worth, here's one of the best lines ever from The Bard: "We are as flies to wanton boys. The gods destroy us for their
sport."
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.83)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 02:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 03:32:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

I have another question for ya'll. I'm looking into buying a new rifle for hunting/long range. I have read the posts concerning this type of question but am curious about everyones thoughts on the .260 Rem.; meaning the kind of info available and the price I could expect to pay to customize a rifle in that caliber. I realize the info available is not going to be as much as say the .308. The wife says I get to spend around $800-$1000.

Andy
Andy <arlinthicum@mindspring.com>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 04:40:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.14.117.67)

I know what you mean about having to go to the 2 piece G suit in the summer. I now use a proprietary, moly-coated, thong bikini G suit design with black, brown and green sequins & matching drag bag. I call it the Gillie String (G String for short). The pumps are out, though, as they tend to catch in pd holes between the primary, alternate and supplementary fighting positions during the "withdraw under pressure" drill.

BRogers:

Sorry for picking on you. Send me your mailing address and I'll give you some hand swaged bullets to test.

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 04:47:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.138)

I own a 338 Lapua Magnum, and a 50BMG and I am having the hardest time finding a civilian range to fire it on, I have the ability to use Quantico Marine Base but they have to alert the International Airport next door the day prior to when I will be shooting. This for me is a pain in the butt! In addition to having to call ahead I can only shoot out to 300 meters, I am searching for anywhere within a 3-5 hours drive that I can fire these weapons at, I am military and have access to all facilities but they say that the cartridge is too big for civilian rages and that i would have to head out to the MidWest to find a range that can handle those calibers. Tell me, I may be mistaken but the military uses ranges to fire their M2 machine guns to 1000 meters why can they not open those ranges up for long range firing by military personnel. I am looking for anything from a open field to a farm or a actual range, I paid all the money for these guns and now that I am in DC I can't do anything but look at them!
Any thoughts or anything from you fellow shooters is very much appreciated.

Thanks and happy shooting! You can reply by email also!

Michael
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 05:00:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.74.146)

I'm in Taylor County, very nearly dead center of the state. Come on over at Christmas! The Lake will be at winter pool and we can put the sneak on the Corps of Engineers and get off a few shots at my "secret" 1100 meter range before the park rangers show up. I am assuming you know all about E and E corridors? hahaha Thanks for the comb info regarding the M40A1 stock. I am a fanatic about setting my optics as close as possible to the action, and therefore actually prefer a lower comb height than what is commonly seen.

Andy:

Have you considered the 7mm STW? Was able to fool with one of the Remington Senderos last year in that chambering. Seems to shoot about as flat as a banjo string out to around 500M! Plenty of load data out there, factory ammo seems pretty common now. Might be worth a look.

Slings!:

I can't recall EVER taking to the field with a rifle that wasn't equipped with a 1.25" M1907 sling. Dad started that, said that was how you shot "that old Garand". I had grown into a young man when I finally realized that you could use a sling to CARRY a rifle! I believe some of my most spectacular shots were more the result of knowing how to properly use the sling than any other single factor.

Out.
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
ain't none of them in this state, I don't reckon!, KY, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 05:53:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.176)

Hey neighbor - there is a range out in Remington Va. Supposedly, some gentleman owns a large quarry. You have to join his shooting club and currently can only shoot when he is present. I have been kinda probing this one myself. I have had several people tell me that there's lot's of long range shooting room there. After all, it is out there in the boonies in Fauquier county Va.

Ken
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 11:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Andre,
I have used the mercury recoil reducers in shot guns for trap and they worked fine. I have never tried one in a rifle but I don't know why they wouldn't work the same. If you get one and put it in, they need to be put in the right way(Good and tight) or they will not work right.

Pat L,
10-4 ont he big guy!! We might be old but we ain't dumb!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 13:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Have you seen anything in the media in the last few years that wasn't a blatant misrepresentation? They can't report on the local race for dog catcher without employing footage intended to be as grossly manipulative as possible. Have you ever noticed how they never interview us strong types? They want the blubbering "who will take care of me?" types. Jeff Cooper refers to these as "rabbit people", I believe, and they are the media's children. This lunatic's spent casings were still warm and Clinton was already on the airwaves announcing "another senseless case of gun violence". It seems as though no one even thought about those kids or their families, just wanted to skip right to the call for MORE gun laws. Question.....did the shooter heed any of the other laws he had broken?

Sorry, guys. There is no need telling y'all this, you already know it. Funny, isn't it? Here on this "evil" shooter's site.....I'll bet that as a group we are probably far less interested in killing people than any average group of Wal-Mart shoppers! (that wasn't directed at Wal-Mart, just needed an example!)

It is very frustrating to "get it" when no one else seems to, huh?

Out.

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
politicketly inkorrekt, KY, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 13:17:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.48)

It would seem that a number of people here have realy taken to the .260 Remington and that it has eclipsed the 7mm-08 as the hot mid-bore precision cartrige. Cool. I am big into 6.5s now and was wondering how I might put my substantial bullet inventory in this caliber to better use.

Question: How does .260 compare to 6.5x55 Sweedish, the 6.5mm cartrige I have the most experience with?

Thanks:

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Balmy Coaltown, in the still Confederate flagged state of, SC, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 13:36:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.174.1)

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 14:01:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

There is of course a fine line between comedy and statements that are just not funny. If I have given any of you offence with my comment I apologize. Have you ever thought of something that to you is really funny but when uttered falls flat? My intent was solely to amuse and I thought a good subject for a joke would be to take two groups that are diametrically opposed to one another and exploit their differences in the name of humor. Sometimes in my buffoonery I go to far, so please accept my apology.

I understand the Gun Culture has many enemies waiting to exploit any opportunity so in the future I will keep my comments on topic.

Michael

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 14:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Slings, A sling is used to hold the rifle tightly into your shoulder. The tension should be so tight that when you roll into position and take your finger trigger hand away the rifle does not fall out of the shoulder. This will cut down your circulation. The narrower the sling the more it cuts into you. The wider the sling the longer before the blood flow slows and your off hand tingles. A 1" wide sling will bruise you badly. A 1 1/4" has been the standard for years and is still the way to go on a Tactical Carbine. The 1 1/2" wide seems to be the ideal one. It quiets the swivels and provides as wide a base as possible without getting into fitting problems of standard rifles.

The sling should wrap over your off hand as your off hand is forced against the swivel stop. If this is a standard quick detachable swivel I would try to use a glove, to keep it from cutting you. If you really want to go first class, get a sliding hand stop. It distributes the force over a wider area and allows for multiple positions of the hand. I use a hand stop rail, handstop and an adapter for my Swivel Harris BiPod. Cost to have someone install this is about 100.00 for rail, stop and labor. It allows you to shoot with a sling from multiple positions quickly.

The standard Military Leather sling works well, but it is slow to deploy and involves to much movement to get into and out of in a covert location. That is the reason I came up with my sling, that you just click into and out of. Minimal movement and it is quick to get into and out of.

Springfield scopes< I would have to say pass and get something else.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
calif, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 16:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53)

buk off the box.

oh, and one more thing, you are whining about people who use
Tasco scopes and your using WebTV to write it....? hahah roflmao

buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Watchinicemeltin, louisiana, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 19:52:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.146.212)

Hey, I know of a couple of "Real Snipers", who use the Tasco Tactical scopes on their Savage .308's. They're small PD's, and not much bucks for the custom .308's. These PD Marksmen (Snipers) can shoot MOA or better with this equipment. Not prior military either, just good shooters who believe in what they do. I don't think they got a 201 file either, if it matters.

Later,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 20:25:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.53)

I have a recoil reducer in my 870 marine magnum. I like it a lot. It makes the gun much more controlable. As with all things there is a cost, it will add weight to the stock.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 21:38:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.145.109)

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, ca, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

Al O.,
That Blackhawk Pro-Shooters mat retails for $129.95 and wholesales for $78.30. Try www.blackhawkindustries.com if you want to order it direct from them. Enjoyed meeting you and also shooting with your brother Val. Give him my regards.

Tony Y.,
Enjoyed meeting you also. It's probably a good thing the course was only two days long. I'm not sure if the Candlewyck or my liver would have taken much more.

Rod and Kent,
Thanks again guys. You run an A-1 first class operation and I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. Wish SMTC wasn't so far away.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The windy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:36:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.123)

BTW, while stationed aboard a sub tender in the early-mid 80's,
we had a burn-out seal aboard... He might've had a few problems,
but shooting straight wasn't one of them...

should have the bushnell pro-1000 here by tuesday. Will try to put it through the mill in the next couple weeks.

Mark
Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:39:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Ned, very funny lad. JT is my webmaster and one hell of a nice guy. He has never claimed to be anything more and has asked for help from anyone he can. That shows his IQ is way above most. I am slowly teaching him about rifles, Hoppes Bench Rest and Sweets 7.62. The love of the smell takes time. LOL I have to say he is a quick learner, although he needs to relax. Two groups with 168 federal does not show anything JT. Wait until you have about 200 rounds down the tube before you start wondering. It takes that long for some factory guns to settle down.

Now here is something to wet all your taste buds. How about a two week class at Jarretts place/NewMexico, the first two weeks of June 2000. First week is medium rifle and the second heavy rifle(338 Lapua or 50 cal) and the second weeks weapons will be provided. Class will be taught by Jarrett, a Former Special Forces Major and I. You can go to one or both weeks.

I am sure in my haste the English/Grammer Police will have a field day, but before he does I hope he asks himself a question/ Is this the Grammer Duty Post or SC? LOL and hope he either has a sense of humor or is ready for playing in the big leagues.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.58)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 23:04:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.195)

Brit.L2A2 Ball;
Have shot +/- 200 rounds through "Tanker" Garand with no failures to feed/fire.It's clean good looking ammo that shoots about like the Portugese ball of similar vintage(pretty hot)I don't have a chrono so can't say for sure,but I would buy more if Portugese is not available. Oh yea boxes are marked "Data A4/1818" Any of you British fellers out there that can interpret that?

Sure hope I don't have one of them there 201 files somebody might find out I drive a Dodge and bought the runt of the litter :).

Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.178)

Something doesn't sound right.

The Army uses pellecan cases for thier D kit and the day optic case.

Damn spelling sucks today!!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.172)

I never used the S&B .223 or .45, but have shot cases of .40S&W with very good results. My pals have same luck with the 9mm S&B. I have used USA Ball (Winchester) .223's and .308's. These are very good. Also, Hertenberger Green Tip .223 62gr ammo is very accurate out to 500yds. The Hertenberger .308 that was loaded for the Brits in Desert Storm is very good ammo. Headstamp is RG 90. Boxes are marked L1A1 90. I have shot it out to 600yds with okay scores. Do you have the address for Cole Distributing Co. They carry surplus ammo for almost anything, and their prices are good. I will post it here in a bit.

Best Regards,

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.46)

MikeM: How early in the spring are you talking on the Jarrett course? Hell, I will pay the admission price just to see a California copper shiver at altitude in say, early March? :) I suppose you could put socks in those shower sandals you guys use as duty wear...we won't tease you, much.

JT [computer dude] email me, will you? Got some work fer ya.

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Try freezing the foam and then cutting it with a long serrated type knife ( The dollar store or somewhere similar has them for $1.00). That is a trick I got from Zero-Halliburton for the inserts for their cases.

Gooch,

Went to the Keyser Wally World last weekend, mentioned your name at check out and the gals got all moon eyed.....
WHAT GIVES?????????

CANDLEWYK TOMORROW NIGHT? Mrs peteR wants to meet you rapscallions.

CHAO!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:37:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.42)

Hey, folks, every day's a holiday, eh??

I apologize to all for the length of my absence, H-S has had me locked up for a few weeks, let me out to work and eat.

MikeM:

Yer plumber is doin' fine, as I have heard the hardware has been. She'll shoot better the more rounds ya sling thru her!! Speaking of sling, she is strung around the 300 win and boy does she look deadly.

mrbullet:

Good to see ya again last week, glad to hear ya did well at the D&L. Congrats friend!!! I will see ya down by the river here this Thursday or Friday, dependin' on when they let me outta my cage!!! No problem showin' your buddy around, just wish we had more time. Next year, I'm navigating to the D&L, heheh!!!!! All weddings are off! LOL. By the way, Hoffman was out today, getting some loads ready. That beer is gonna taste mighty fine!

I'll let a little newsflash out, the 6.5 x 284 has been taken into deep consideration at H-S. Any of youse guys after one of these hot rods need to harrass Janet, day after day, I can see us building one in the near future, eh Pat!!!!

You guys keep it interesting, I'll catch ya later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:43:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.9.107)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
newcarisnice, maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 02:26:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Hope this helps
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 04:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.174)

And of course, immediately seek help. My unit has had a sudden windfall of cash, and my self appointed duty is to grab as much of it as possible for my platoon. I need NSN's for the following items:

1) G-suit kits.
2) Scope mounts for the M-21/14. We got PVS-10's in so we want to put the M3A's on the semi's. This may be a Dept. Navy number. Failing that, who makes the best mount out there that does business with the military.
3) Any commo freaks out there? Looking for a small hand held radio compatible with SINCGARS SC freqs (30-80mhz), with earpiece and throat mike options, and runs on either mil std or AA bats, with 3km range. Ideally unit cost would be below $500. Can be civilian purchase, preferably a company that does business with the military.

Returning to the states next month, next station , Ft. Drum. Try to get down to the Mountain in the spring (should have my rifle by then).

Back to surfing the monsoon on the lovely Highly Militarized Zone.

Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP GReaves, ROK - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 04:34:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.77.211.228)

Sarge i can't help but wonder, your email says garryn, is that perhaps gary north?

Bortz out
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 06:29:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.28)

Paul
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 08:28:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.167)

I inquired within the shooting club about shooting .50's - I received that same answer. They have to call Dulles and coordinate the shoot times. Yeh - I know - sounds abit like overkill - but that's not the first time I've heard that.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 13:05:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

I think to get an adult Drivers License in ANY state, you should have to have current CPR and First Aid certifications,and Concealed Weapon certification in addition to demonstration of driving skills,
and a DUTY TO RESPOND requirement

or you don't drive!

might scare some LEO'S, but none of this crap at schools, daycares, family diners, and the workplace would occur. Like Ray Bradbury said "An Armed society, is a polite society"

The deck would be completely stacked against the wackos and criminals.

Oh use a firearms in the commission of a felony/ or attempted felony and deep fry in crisco oil on nationwide TV with live commentary.....

later gaters!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 13:15:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.57)

I am mounting a scope on my SA NM M1A using MWG 1" rings and a BPT scope mount. Are there any particular "tricks" or things I should be aware of before I start? Is there anyway to guestimate how to apply 30 inch pounds or 65 pound inch of torque? (I don't have a torque wrench)Will lapping the rings benefit this setup? Any advise would be greatly appreciated as this will be the first time I have ever mounted a scope before. Or should I just find a reputable gun smith with the proper tools and let him do it?

Thanks for your time,
Fred
FNG <glock96@hotmail.com>
TEXAS, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 15:53:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.10.146.29)

Ken
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 19:28:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
1800IHATEMEDIA, Maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 19:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

But, will tell you this, if I could get that brand spanking new Colt Elite to shoot a 1000 yards, youins wood bee in treble! Started breaking in today. 1st shot at 25 yards to adjust. Next 3 shots at 100 covered with a dime. Trigger needs lightening up a little.

Maybe it's not my sorry shooting afterall!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 20:38:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.27)

Thank you for your response my post.

Anytime anyone wants to shoot a rifle with a caliber over 308 they have to alert Dulles Intl Airport that we are firing large caliber weapons, the fear is because if the rifle is mis aimed a 338 Lapua or 50BMG could act as artillery on Dulless Intl. They have some kind of fear that Quantico is gonna start dropping planes like flies, Quantico just happens to be in the flight path of one of the busiest runway out here at Dulles, imagine their fear as nowing that there are shooters out there that could if everything went wrong shoot a airplane out of the sky on takeoff/landing! That is why we need ta call 24 hours in advance to schedule it, they even want to bump the prearranged time up to a week, because they are supposedly not giving the airport enough time to close that runway down and divert traffic!

I have headed out to QMB serveral times and 2 of the 5 times I have headed out there I showed up with a 338 Lapua and a 50BMG and they said that the schedule was cancelled because of the airport.
A little behind the scenes note for you even during military exercises the runway is shut down, they contact the airport prior to range day and set the schedule! Most people never find out about that until they try to bring long guns out there!

On any range uantico has (rifle ranges of course) you can fire UP TO 7.62 NATO, meaning that you can shoot a 300 Win Mag no problem, correct me if i am wrong Ken, but ranges 7 and 8 have been closed to those that are not using the range for OFFICIAL USE!

Still looking for a range to shoot at, right now I have my commander at work contact QMB(Qunatico Marine Base) to set times for shooting, and that can be a hassle.

If anyone knows of a better way to get through to QMB and get a shooting time scheduled please let me know, and if there are any shooters in the area (within 100 miles)email me and we can down a couple and send some lead downrange.

Thanks alot!

Michael OUT!
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washigton, DC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 21:59:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.70.100)

Sorry all for the bad spelling.
Been a really long day that does not want to end.

Look forward to any responses that come of my post!

Michael OUT!
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 22:08:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.70.100)

In the DC area, you could try Fort Meade, tehy used to let the Mryland machingun club come in and shoot whenever they liked, so long as no official exercise was happening. Also, Check with Fort A.P. Hill, they practice live ordinance and whatnot there, I doubt that a few big bore rifles is gonna make a diff. It is a bit more of a haul, but hey. Oh, and expect that if you go to Meade, you will be thoroughly checked out, it is also the headquarters for the NSA.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
jessieventuraforprez, maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 22:11:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

They do not allow any automatic weapons there anymore :(
You cannot shoot anything over .30 cal, from the brochure i am reading, that was handed to me like 5 minutes ago.

The only people out there that can shoot big bore is LE and Military LE, and comparable units, I nave some friends in the Bureau that I will see if they will sponsor me to shoot while they are out there.

Unless i can get the documentation from my unit saying that we are a LE based unit. Not sure though.

Thanks for the warning about being checked out, I think i will be ok seeming as I work there 3 days a week(at NSA HQ) and at NOC-P the rest of it, but thank you for the warning,(looking out for your buddies)!

And by the way, you got mail check your email account.

Any questions feel free to email me!

Michael OUT!
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 22:43:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.70.100)

To all who answered my question on snipers and handgun training thanx. Almost surprising, seems most have very little, I would have guessed the opposite.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Rain swept through, Maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 23:07:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Thanks in advance.

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Finally Leaving, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 23:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Thanks so much for the reply, professor. I had no idea of how to arrive at this solution. In fact, the formula I had years ago must have been wrong because it was no where near as thorough as this. I have saved the procedure for future use.

Now. One more question: How can you calculate the effective reduction of recoil that is derived from a muzzle brake? Can it be done?

Just thought I'd inspire a few more headaches.

Thanks!

SEmper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Headed For, PA, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 00:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Here is what little info I have on the picatinney rail. I hope you guys will forgive me if I'm wrong, most of this is just personal observation.
"The picatinney rail is an extended length, one-piece, Weaver style optics mounting base. It has a cross slot (for the ring's recoil bolt) spaced every 3/4 - 1 1/4 inches along it's length. This serves to allow placement of the scope/sight/whatever to more closely fit the needs of the individual shooter. Surely you have encountered a rifle whose scope was either too close to your eye or too far forward.
The picatinney rail almost completely eliminates this. A popular option for these rails is to taper their height from front to rear. This mounts the scope at a very slight angle (about 15 - 20 MOA, I think), allowing you to use all or most of a scope's elevation adjustment to compensate for bullet drop at extreme ranges."

WHEW! Hey guys, was Picatinney Arsenal involved in the development of this set-up?

Is anyone from the Ashville, NC area? I have recieved a job offer from there and would like some intel. email me.

Out.

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
outback, KY, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 02:25:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.215.71.29)

What we call the Picatinny base was first used on the Lewis machine gun. This was told to me by a credible source on another list.

http://w3.pica.army.mil/picatinny/Default.asp

Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 08:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.45.192.98)

Gooch, Rick, lurking AD types, I need those NSN's bad. The money is slipping away.

SCOUT/SNIPERS OUT!!!
Ed <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 13:10:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.77.211.216)

Thanks-
Brian
Brian <brianbusch@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 13:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.148.140.21)

I saw a couple episodes of the SEALS THANG too, after I got back from my trip to Keyser.I just got a glance, but I do believe that was "The Master Sniper" shooting it too.

Al O.
I think the waitress at Francescos with the tattoo'ed necklace liked you, or was it Stu? or Depity? or was it brother of Depity "The elder" or "The younger"?
I know, It weren't me, Mrs. peteR made me behave ;-)

Stu,
Will you ever be the same after that traumatic epicurean experience on Piedmont Street, of Keyser, West By-Gawd VA.?

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 14:32:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)

Thanks and watch out, those damn monkeys will bite ya!
TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 18:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.214)

Working with what I got
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 20:11:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.207)

I have a website with reviews and info on most of the rangefinders at Jesse's Hunting Page and Gear Review
spectr17 <spectr17@netscape.net>
Smoggy and hot , southern kaliforny, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 20:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.179.141.3)

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 21:32:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.189)

Oh well just me being grim again.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 21:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.72)

I'm wanting some input on spotting scopes. Has probably been discussed in detail before, so maybe I missed it, but I'm hoping some of you guys can help steer me in the right direction on making a purchase. Naturally, I'd like to have the best quality spotting scope I can get - but money WILL be a major factor in the selection. Just looking for something nice that I can look at my targets after shooting out to maybe 500 yards or so. Is there anything out there that can be had in the $200-$300 range that is really worth looking at (or through!)???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.234) 

Aww, I couldn't do it. I was going to say something about telling her about bubonic plague and prairy dogs next time she shows up, but what the heck. Some people you can't tell anything. Maybe during her crusade to protect and defend the little rats she will find out firsthand.

Shoot Straight!

Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jacksonville, FL, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:15:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211) 

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/tactical/tac.htm

Hope it helps...

Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211) 

Hmm.... in one of those under the breath lines, I could swear I
heard him say:

"this stock sure is pretty, but damn its heavy and all the guys
are gonna laugh at me..."*

buk out

*blathering attempt at humor not ment to offend anyone with mentioned
product.

buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
LookinforaMastaSnipa-in, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.144.85) 

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
over yonder, KY, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 01:32:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.168) 

I'm sure it's been covered here many times, but any good, just-short-of-max loads for .308 (VSSF) with Varget, with Sierra 155, 168, 175, and 190's would be appreciated. Could not get this rifle to group with Hornady 168 BTHP moly coateds and BLC(2), using CCI BR primers. Please Email 'em...... Thanks!
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 03:05:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.38) 

Ed - I used to have a copy of the Benning POI and it had the NSN's for the ghillie kit in it but no can find. If you can get on a DSN line and contact SOTIC at Bragg I'm sure they have all of that info.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 04:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178) 

Next time take the video camera with you. You can show all your buds what an animal rights whacko looks like. Yeah, my kid thinks all these whackos are nuts too.

Keep up the good work,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 12:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.78) 

Did you check for any "hunter harrassment" type laws or ordinances in your area. I think you should have brought her some to take home and bury "decently" in her pet cemetary. Heck even put them in her back pack for her.......

"WWF Master Snipers" - TeeVeeSNIPERSEALS carrying SKS's with Choate stocks & Bushnell scopes,- whats next - Gwynneth Paltrow on DELTA FORCE? Ben Stein "Stevie Segall'ing" the evil prairie dawg hunters?
Thats why my paw dun calls it "The Idiot BOX" I rekon.

Ned,
Why do you need "just-short-of-max loads for .308 (VSSF) with Varget, with Sierra 155, 168, 175, and 190's would be appreciated". They don't shoot any better than lighter charges, and you risk problems in an unknown rifle.

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 12:57:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.82) 

Try a start load of of 43.5 grains with NEW commercial cases and Federal match primers.
I have found (for me) that 44.0 grains works exceptionally well with weights up to 178 gr. and have tooted that horn enough for now.
RIGHT GUYS????

Hey Sarge?, Sarge?

C'mon out, Grannies gone.............. LMAO!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 15:16:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.187) 

Where did you find this info that S&W was supporting a ban on cheap handguns????? I would like to read that!!!!! As for S&W quality, I have owned well in excess of 100 S&W's, I used to collect them, and I still own quite a few of them and I have not had a bad one. I used to shoot silhouettes with them and I don't think that I would have to shove one down any bad guys throat to do away with him. Have you ever owned a S&W???? The one I shoot most now is a S&W 6906 and it has been shot more than a 1000 rounds without one failure and I have not used any ball ammo in it. I now use Win Black Talon for serious social occasions but I practice with hand loads with Sierra HP bullets. This S&W and all other auto S&W's I have seen will feed empty cases, something you cannot get any other auto that I know of to do!!!
I will get off of my soap box now but I still would like to know where you got your info about S&W supporting a ban on cheap handguns and is it reliable info.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 16:40:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.66.142) 

SxW Weapons being junk. I didn't know this and apparently neither do any of the ones our department has used. I had a 645 that went over 20,000 rounds without a single malfunction. A 4506 that went 10,000 rounds clean. I changed to a HxK 45 a few years ago because it holds 13 rounds instead of 8. I miss the sear reset of the SxW(The best DA reset in the business) but not the long first trigger pull. Nothing wrong with SxW, they are just not the current rage in the Peterson Publishing World.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 17:03:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.27) 

For cutting foam rubber, if you have access to one, try using a scroll-saw with possibly a #5 blade. I use the saw mainly for wood-working, but you would be amazed at what the sucker will cut with the right blade and proper speed.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:22:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.31.4.229) 

PS Hello Crapton!!!!***#$ 965743345
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, orygun, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.22) 

Has anyone has installed a Pachmayr Pre-fit recoil pad on a Remington 700 PSS (H-S Precision stock)? If so, kindly advise your level of satisfaction with the installation procedure and reduction in felt recoil.

Thanks in advance..
Curious George <cg@ibm.net>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:59:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.16) 

Mike M,
I won one of H&Ss new tactical stocks in Wyoming and your right about it. Its a very nice stock indeed and very comfortable. My kid already has his eye on it and is trying to deal me out of it(HA)

Bruce,
You will be happy to know that I actually milled two targets at the D&L shoot and I even hit one at 700+ using the Mil Dot Master!!! So it workd great and was my constant companion all the way through the shoot. It gave me a great feeling to know I didn't have to rely on the lazer for everthing.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 19:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130) 

S&W [a division of Britain's Tomkins] has been in the news of late due to its former vice-president for marketing, Robert Hass, claiming that execs could have easily stemmed the underground distribution of guns in cities. Needless to say, subpoenas are common around his house.

Don't be surprised when it is finally aired that more than one US gunmaker has crawled into the sack with those who use the word ban in every sentence...again. Oh, by the way, Happy 50th Aniv...Bill.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 19:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10) 

"Pablito... I dressed for Rain, got sunburnt. There were no course materials, no flashy presentations and no million dollar electronic gizmos.
The training is straightforward and practical. They are clear about what they want, and if you cannot perform as a professional, you are free to leave.
Show up late, they leave you behind. Forget to bring lunch, you don't eat. There is nothing hostile about the methods, in fact it is very cordial; they just don't have any patience for people who are not there to work."
..."G.M."

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27) 

dan

Dan Gleeson <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
an insignificant dot not even on the map, DE, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:43:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.0.82.230) 

Janet Reno on 12 AUG 99 at a press conference.

Q Ms. Reno, what's your feeling about the Second Amendment? Do you subscribe to the collective rights theory or the individual rights theory of the Second Amendment? Is it a well-regulated militia that should have guns or every individual should have guns?

ATTY GEN. RENO: As I have said, I don't think it ensures to every individual the right to bear arms.

For Info
Roger
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Fl, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 00:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.130.120) 

"Your query is one that i thought about a while back. When i was developing all of the corrections for .50 caliber sniper rifles; including corrections for barometric pressure, air temperature, ammo temp, spin drift, slant angle and combinations of the above, I wondered that very question.

Consulting Artillery Circular "M" I pulled up the old formula that taught the naval gunnery officers of the time to compensate for the earths rotation. They had to deal with high angle fire and flight time in minutes and seconds vs. milliseconds and full seconds up to 4-6 seconds.

Using their formula and the Mark 211, MOD-0 round at a velocity of 2840 fps. I plotted a shot firing at the equator due north for a range of 1500 meters. The major factor is the flight time vs. the decay time of the earth's rotation and the difference between the two.

The short version is you're right..... althought that would certainly start a ration of #$*& at another site. At 1500 meters, the "decay" is about 9.76 inches. That's about a .50 MOA correction to the East.

It's a very difficult and technical subject, so much so that most ignore it and even more scoff at it."

Hmmmm....

gooch <pteoo791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 03:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142) 

http://www.usmc.mil/y2k
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 03:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142) 

First, the question was invalid, because it's utilizing "militia" as a substitute for the national guard, not as "every able-bodied and able-bodied man and woman between the ages of eighteen to what ever age is they remain competent and able, not convicted of a felony" (how 'bout that for a modern "politically correct" version, being unbiased towards gender and legal age!)

2nd: Overlooking that, there's still those qualifications to the statement... minors, felons, and the mentally incompetent. She's right, she doesn't support the right for "every individual" to bear arms... remember, the b&%ch is a lawyer (oh sh#$, I didn't say that, did I? ;-) The statement "could" have been taken out of context, and she only meant that as I have given her the benefit of the doubt about (for the sake of playing devil's advocate here!)

IMHO, I realize that she meant it as it sounded, but unfortunately in this day and age it IS the letter of the statement that is the law, and she 'could' justify the statement as it stood.

What was it I heard the other day... "Who wins the debate? The person who frames it", and the media are the ones framing the whole che-bang.

======================================================

FYI, I've only been lurking recently, haven't had much time to participate, as I'm in the middle of an unexpected relocation. We, the missus and I, have been packing, job-hunting, and cleaning in preparation to move into the family's farm back in upper East Tennessee; we've had enough of this town, and I can't see how anyone could stand a larger one. So, we're going to be in the country, and gladly. I'll be able to shoot off the front and back porches even, well, if the wife'll let me, that is.

Oh, and Al O... I bet I could find a pair of sheep shears in the shed if you need 'em! LOL

L8R, all.......

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 04:03:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.250.234) 

I have never met you, but quite a few on this site sing your praises.
Unfortunately it appears that you have neither the maturity or mental dexterity to cope with technical argument. If I am wrong, write a rebuttal to your .50 cal shooting nemisis on this site. I can't meet you and look into your eyes but I can read, and analyse your counter-argument.

At least display some honour and integrity instead of the child-like scoffing at the unconventional wisdom researched by other less self-seeking individuals.

Go put your cam cream back on and watch another John Wayne movie.

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 06:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71) 

Alan
Alan Tse <alantse@netspace.net.au>
Melbourne, VIC, Australia - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 08:18:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.23.72.3) 

Darryl...
Gooch Can't watch John Wayne movies... they ain't got no Tee-Vees down in West "By Gawd" Virginy... hell man, they ain't hardly got no 'lectricity after sundown... so he'll have to just go on and do what others watch on their "Tee-Vees"... it's a tough life but someone has to do it.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 09:18:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.129) 

Gooch
It wasn't me posting about Earth rotation, East West elevation corrections.

Darryl (Ovine version)
Have any luck with your steel 700 SA floor plate?

Dave "Doc" King
Dave King <david_l_king@yahoo.com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 12:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.80.109) 

We showed up for the Super Sniper Match, and we all got our kits on the line.
Everybody got set up, and when the 10" targets would pop up at UKD, we had to take 10 plates in the given time.

A lotta' guys had nice rifles and good scopes, and most guys had Mil-dot masters, others had pocket calc's.
Most guys had spotting scopes focused on the grass half way down the range...
... but I was going to clean this one... I had science on my side.

When the plates popped up, I got out my surveyors theodolite, and got the angular subtension of the plates as .2802777778 minutes of angle.
I enter that into my lap top computer running the latest version of "Excel"... 1007 yards. HA, I'm already ahead of those dummies... they'll probably mil-dot the plates at 1000 yds.

OK... now, spin drift at 1007 yds... well take the spin drift at 1000 (2.1") x 1.007=2.1147", but the spin drift data was gotten with 6 grove 50/50% rifling, and I'm using 4 grove 20/80% rifling, so that's 2.1147" times .47 K factor = .993909" of spin drift a 1007 yds... it's going well.

Wow, I know I'm gonna win this one, those guys are already shooting with no real data! They ain't gonna hit poop!

Next, I'm shooting at a latitude of 47 degrees north of the equator, so I take the equatorial "Earth Drift" and divide by the sine of 47 degrees the get the earth drift (EqD)x(sine 47)... but I'm shooting at an angle to the longitude of 78 degrees south, so the earth drift is a negative number... so I have (EqD)x(sine 47)x((sine/-1)x78), and add that to the positive spindrift... now the correction is .36 inches to the left at 1007 yds.
Ok, were getting' close... the hell with scoping grass at 500 yds... I got my portable Doppler shift wind meter... lemme see, we have a varying 4.373 mph to 10.785 mph, fishtailing from 36.974 degrees, to 48.937 degrees...
Ok, we're getting ready... enter the spin drift... the equatorial drift (with corrections)... the angle of the sun... the temperature of the receiver, scope bases and and rings, times the expansion coeffecent rate of the steel... and the Doppler data into the "Master Excel Spread Sheet"!... Load a round and wait a moment for the computations...

(There's a tapping on my shoulder)... "Wadda ya want?... I'm gettin' ready to shoot!"

"Hey buddy, the course is over, everybody's left, we gotta clear the range!"

Shit... I'll do better next year, I'll get a faster lap top!

Hail to science! The hell with practical experence!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:33:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.103) 

Since our class was considerably smaller this time, there was a much more personalized instruction by Rod and Kent, but always a professional and safe atmosphere.

As you can probably tell I can not say enough good about both courses. These two course have transformed me froma a wannabe long range shooter to one that still needs a lot of practice as we all do. Thanks again, Rod, Kent and Stu (my partner)for helping me to qualify first time around.

KS Tactical: About the SPringfield 3rd Gen Scope. Usually there is a reason why the scope is being sold for "a deal". It is an above average scope, but most long range accurate shooting is done with mil-dots and spend the extra bucks and get a Leopold or a B/L Tactical.

Mr LeMay: Good Point about the nuts running around at the Keyser Wal-Mart. Didnt I see you in there, last time I was there??

peteR: Great time this weekend, Great to finally meet you and your lovely wife. How did you ever get so lucky to have someone so lovely get to marry you??

Depity Dave and your Brothers: Nice having dinner with and telling me your experiences. So now we know that the Candlewyck is not the only place in town to eat., Francesco - great Italian food. But dont mention Kent Gooch name in there, we almost got thrown out of there on our ears, Some kind of Italian swearing and something about chasing the owner's young daughter around. Counldn quite make everything out between the swearing and ducking the meat cleavers being thrown at us.

I've rambled on enough.

But one last thank you to Al (Uncle Nunzio's nephew) Biacci and 2you know what for. I like to think I done you proud.

As far as the sheep shears go, didnt need them, but up att the 1000 hill, there were some mighty good looking hiefers in the field next to us and Im sorry I forgot my ladder.

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:48:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.129) 

Remember at Storm Mountain, dialogue is the most important aspect of your shooting with your partner. And "The Ding is the Thing."

al o. (again)

Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls. net>
CHronologically Challenged and back in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:54:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.129) 

Dear Mr. President:

As both a taxpayer and veteran, I strongly protest the exorbitant fiscal and Military resources you proudly took credit for committing to the national spectacle surrounding the unfortunate death of John F. Kennedy, Jr., his wife and his sister-in-law.

First, although the deaths of Mr. Kennedy and his family members are
certainly a personal tragedy for friends and family, they are not a national tragedy anymore than the loss of any other human life. Can you (or the SECDEF) name the two soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division killed in Kosovo last weekend, or the Army Lieutenant who died in a plane crash in the mountains of Columbia on the same day? Could not you have mentioned their names and service to the country in your fawning TV bites about the Kennedy’s? Your reinforcement of the endless press hysteria and hype is a disgrace to your office and our Nation.

I can easily think of several unfeigned national tragedies demanding your attention, such as your repeated imprudent commitment of our armed forces to missions that have nothing to do with vital US interests. You’re ill-advised gutting of our national defense to the point of unreadiness; and certainly your own personal conduct. But the death of John F. meet the mark.

As a taxpayer, I see no reason for Kennedy’s loss in a general aviation accident to be treated any differently than any similar accident involving the loss of any other private citizen. Your unnecessary commitment of Coast Guard and Naval resources to a grandstanding recovery mission at a level far beyond what would have applied in any other situation smacks of politics and elitism (and your insecurity) at its worst.

Present DOD policy alleges that our country can’t even afford to provide full (if any) military burial honors for real heroes (like WWII veterans) unless they happen to be considerate enough to die at or near a military installation that happens to have resources available at the time. Under those conditions, it is an affront of the worst order for you to honor a civilian (who never served his country in uniform) with a burial at sea supported by a US Naval warship. How many WWII vets could we have properly honored for the cost of the Kennedy burial at sea? Perhaps you or the Kennedy family intend to reimburse the US Treasury for the cost of this gala.

You might also apologize to millions of veterans and armed service members who you insulted by this special treatment at their expense. Your excuse that ”this special treatment honors what the Kennedy family has meant to the Country” is political claptrap. Your actions prolong the imaginative status of the “royal” Kennedy family. Those of us who’ve gone in harm’s way for this Nation remember that our first war, the Revolution, and the drafting of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were substantially about discarding forever that sort of elitist privilege in this Republic. We didn’t
want it in 1776 and we certainly don’t need it now. Examples for us all-not an American “Princess Diana.”

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 15:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83) 

My two cents is develop a good 1/2 minute load, stop there and shoot the ever lovin' hell out of it - all the time - with the same one gun.
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83) 

I don't think Mista Gooch really needs my help, but I happen to do Federal contract work with some folks who are "in the know", not Master Snipers, Wannabees, etc. etc., they are "the real deal"
During a nocturnal discussion regarding perimeter security, ECP's, duty gear, tactical methods & training w/ rifles, shotguns and handguns from places like: Glynco, GA./Greenbelt, Md./Private companies, and I happened to mention the name Kent Gooch,
hushed silence,
and "You mean from Quantico?"
next comment"The man knows his stuff"
These guys often cover my "six" at work and they are dead serious folks. NUFF SAID!

and Partisan,

I carry a S&W revolver at work, it works flawlessly EVERY TIME as does my personal training piece (K frame M-65-5)which is current production and built as good as the ones from the 1930's.
Didn't that EX-VP moron lose his job because of his mouth? He is the manufacturing version of Reno, whom I believe had her mental capacity/competency to hold office questioned more than once
due to a degenerative condition, RIGHT?
The very woman who openly stated she would NOT enforce current prosecutions for federal firearms violations because they would "tie up the court systems for decades". It ain't about crime control, its about disarmament.

Al,
It was very nice meeting you and Stu in person. I think the Carlos match will even be more fun now that I know about Franceso's. We will have to take "The Rosterfarians" there, (you know Bolt,'Lito, Undude, and the rest of the Carlos match rapscallions) instead of Lucy's Sheep Dip Cafe.

If they don't start nailing boards over the doors when we pull up.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:36:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.27) 

I will try to address some of the most common problems, part or all of which you may have tried. First check the length of the front mount screw. To do this take the scope off and loosen the three other screws on a one piece base or the rear screw on a two piece base and check for any movement. If there is any movement, shorten the front screw, this is the most common problem I see. Next check for barrel clearence, it should not touch except just in front of the action. Next change the tension on the action screws and see if this changes your POI, if it does you have a bedding problem and you should take this up with your smith. Use the ammo your smith is using for your testing as it sounds like it is of good quality (but don't expect those little .100" to .300" groups all the time that he got with the machine rest). When you take it to the range to test, use some sand bags or a front and rear rest but remove the sling studs front and rear or at least make sure they do not touch anything during recoil as this will make a big change in POI. Last but not least change the scope as it could be bad, I know it is a Leupold but they make some not-so-good scopes also and if it is the scope send it back and tell them you are with LE and they will fix it a little sooner. There could be other problems but I just listed some of the most common and easiest to fix.
I hope this helps.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 17:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.66.123) 

What gives? Anyone who finds himself in a position where it is necessary to engage targets at one mile with a rifle has got more problems than whether to account for spin drift. Snipers don't carry the battle. They are just another asset (like the rest of us) a commander may decide to use or not use. All that high speed BS is just that. How often do military snipers kill at that distance? The fact is, it just doesn't come up all that much. You can kill more stuff with a radio, binos, map and compass than a company of snipers can. When Gooch says it doesn't matter, he's right. At average sniping distances one is likely to encounter you've got a lot more to deal with than techno-geek crap.

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 22:56:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.47) 

Tjis weekend I found myself at the range breaking in that Model 70 and it has come a long way. Its eating Gold Match 168 now very nicely indeed. I am very pleased with how well this rifle is doing. Still have to do some trigger work on it etc but I couldnt be happier.

On the Smith and Wesson Handgun topic - I went through my training using a S&W 586. It was a totally out of the box gun. No trigger job, no special grips, no new sights, no laser, and except for not liking the aluminum cassed cci stuff that we had back then (The extractor would not function) it was and remains my favorite handgun. I took top gun wiht it every class so somethign had to be right. I will admit when it gets VERY dirty (hundreds of rounds) it will start to have problems turning the cyl especially if it was oiled heavily and not fully wiped down beforehand. However that beautiful piece of machenery (with a little help) shot far better than any of the pythons on the line and was more reliable than anything else I have used except for an old loose 1911 that I have never been able to make malfunction. (The 1911 is also only about as acurate as throwing abowling ball at 25 yards :-)

I'll be very dissapointed if this rumor about S&W getting in bed with the gun grabbers is true.
JT - Webmaster for Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Rifle Sling City, Californi, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147) 

And, ever cents that thar Al.O. feller started a talking bout them little sheepies, I been usin a little bit of that sheepie dip behind ma ears instead of terlit wawter. UMMMMMMM, likes to have me some them rare lamb tender loins.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:48:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.48) 

I highly protest, and represent, your disparagin' remarks towards Lucy's "Sheep Dip Cafe'".
Ewe know that those "Sheepish" waitresses are the reason half of us are going to Carlos... hell, we ain't even bringing rifles or ammo.

Got a note from Remington today... they are shippin my 40-XB based M-24 that I'm having built for Carlos on... you got it... Oct 4th. So I'll be bringing a couple of Winchesters, and maybe an M-21.

Spoke to one of the head engineers on the M3-LR, and first, he's a she, and she's damn good, and knows her stuff. The Mil-dot MK4's from Leupold have round dots on glass, but the factory Mil-dot M3-LR's have football dots... the factory scopes use the Premier reticles... so there are no M3-LR's with round dots. They just overhauled my M3-LR... quoted 2 weeks, shipped it on Monday, it was back in my hands on Wednesday!!! Not bad!

If you shoot Fed Match...
Spoke to the Powder engineer today about Fed GM Match, and he stated that for Fed GM1, GM2 and GM3, each has "THREE QUALIFIED PROPELLANTS" (his words), and though their lots may all have the same muzzle velocity (24" test bbls) they may vary in longer or shorter bbls... also, even if the vel is the same in your rifle, try to buy large lots... different lots may have different POI's because of the different burning characteristics.

Fed GM-2, M118, and M118-LR, and most commercial loads with the 175MK, will track the "Meters" cam on the M3-LR... and the M118 cam on the MK4-M3

Fed GM-1, and "M118-Special Ball" and most commercial loads with the 168MK will track with the "Yards" cam on the M3-LR, and the "168 cam on the MK4-M3.

There is no "meters" cam for the 168, and no "yards" cam for the 175.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:52:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133) 

My point stands. I accept that technical aspects of long range marksmanship have practical limitations. Pablitos range example said it all. I dont think that any reasonable person would dispute that point.

However, does time spent cleaning and polishing the primer pocket make any difference? Really? We are permitted to discuss such debatable practices on this site without ego censorship. Contrast this with the reception on .50 cal spindrift.

It appears to me that while this site is purportedly for the exchange of information pertinent to long range marksmanship, it must be acceptable to the guru class and its uncritical groupies.

My criticism was never about the practical validity of technical sniping solutions, it was about demonizing those that dare breach the accepted non-technical conventional wisdom.

The last I recall of the spindrift exponent was after all the fur had settled he commended the site and stated he would avoid the sorts of exchanges the concept originally elicited. He did what was right by the site. But what guru saw fit to drag the cat back in?

.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 00:27:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 00:37:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252) 

Pat:

I'll be arriving in Pierre Friday evening, gotta work Friday morning, but I'm staying the weekend, at the Ramkota. Just tell me which bar and what time, I'll try not to drink ALL the beer!!

Mr. King:

I'm gonna have to have a talk with our Ballistician and sales people. If we had a 338 Lapua shoot that kind of group, it would have just made my day, and 'The Wall'. They're holding out on me, I'm tellin ya!!! Don't let these guys give ya too much shit on the Lapua, it is a fine round, expensive, yes, but that will change.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 03:10:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.10.103) 

Mike/Undude
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:00:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.99) 

It appears that trigger does his writing in a different place now. Are we better for that? Never met the guy, probably never will. His stuff on 50 cal shooting was interesting to me though, probably proves I am in over my head, huh?

Pablito: The M70 has gone to greener pastures. I appreciate all the words of advice you had on it.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.91) 

I know what you mean, and I don't know where the trails crossed out back. Guess I was just never much for one on none shadow boxing. Much to my regret, there was always someone there countering the jab:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:58:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.91) 

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 05:08:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.53) 

Maybe I'm guilty of seeing this from too narrow a perspective. Where I worked we had no time for such calculations due to the nature of our typical engagements. It's just that arcane techniques like that stuff mentioned earlier border on trick shooting; nothing you can count on (especially when time is of the essence) but spectacular when it works. I do appreciate being able to access such information here nontheless and I'm sorry if I was rude. I have gleaned a butt load of great ideas and methods from the contributors to this site which I would normally be too stupid to conceive of on my own.

Sincerely,

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 10:39:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.180) 

Gooch: Also thanks for looking. Is SMTC still the ATI distributer in the States.

UnDude: Nice site. Expect sling order in Oct.

Getting short. Need help reaching the pull-up bar all of a sudden.

Ed <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 11:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.77.211.227) 

I have no problem with anyone giving ideas on here and gets us all to thinking. An example is my sling. For years I was happy with a modified MRT Sling. Then I sent one to Gooch. He said have you thought about using nylon, so I did. Here I am about ten design changes latter in one year and I have something so much better than my original That I laugh at the first ones.

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 14:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192) 

On the last part of your post where you said that the M118-Special Ball will track with the (168gr. Y dial), I am sure that you meant to say, M852, but we all have those little brain farts now and then.

There may be no meters cam for the 168 gr. bullet but if you can load the 168 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can use the (308-2600 M) cam and be close.
There may also be no yards cam for the 175 gr. bullet but if you load the 175 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can also use the (180 gr. 2700 Y cam) for the 30-06 and be even closer.

It takes a techno-geek to know these things. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

I enjoyed your rendition of what to do and how to do it. I just see that as all the more reason not to buy a laptop. Damn things will never be good enough. Besides, if you are not enjoying yourself out there, why are you there? Way to go.

All,

I would like a little assistance, if you will. My grandfather, (deceased) was with the Canadian forces in Europe during WW2. Specifically, he was on Juno Beach, then went through the hedgerows in France. He was a sniper, and I would really like to research what he had and what he used, and even if possible, what he did. When he was alive, I was the only one whom he told about the war to, not my granny, his kids, or any of the 17 other grand kids.... just me.

I would appreciate some assistance here, cause im pretty much not knowing where to look,,, and i thought someone out there, may have some info on the WW2 canadian snipers.

"Jack Daniels is in the freezer, i gotta go rescue it"

Gone.

sean <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
waayyyyy up north....., b.c., canada - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:38:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.197.14)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:09:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)

mike vernazzaro <vmanwookie@cs.com>
plymouth, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.168)

PETITION DISTRIBUTOR, RUNNING OUT OF TIME IN KALIFORNIA.
C. Ross <chr@alanex.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.182.177.3)

You ever make the President's 100? You go to Perry this year?
I went but did not shoot well. My kid did good though. We only
stayed for the Service Rifle matches. Shot the John C. Garand
Match too. That one was fun.

Best Regards,

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.43)

I have been following the latest handwringing about precision calculations, specially Pablito's scenario, funny one. The fact of the matter is that these methods WERE trained to SOF snipers for a number of years. When these SEASONED SOF operators heard the program and the intended use of it, each and every single one of them, ARMY SF, Rangers, SEALS, EOD, USAF across the board completely understood it.

IT IS NOT intended for the battlefield sniper who is laying there on the wastelands waiting for that target to pop up to be engaged. In fact, for the conventional army or marine sniper, under common battlefield conditions, it has nearly no application at all, because they DO NOT shoot at the ranges at which the combined MET and ENV effects will be experienced.

Again, I must say that damn few shooters that shoot, haven't done so at ranges where these effects come into play. The Fifty Caliber Shooters Association is a club that shoots long range routinely. Their matches are 1000 yard matches but they do club shoots on extreme ranges quite often. They also have some very intelligence science types there, i.e. Eric Williams, Chemical Engineer, and so forth.

They have no problem with this. My final word is this. If you have a 300 magnum, drag your butt out there and put a target down 1500 yards away, and have a go at it. By the way, the laptop won't work. It's not that simple.

To those with interest, email me with questions, ill be happy to field them. THere are about 150 SOF snipers out there with this training and i'll guarantee you this much. Not one single one of them will say that any of this is unnecessary, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHOT THESE CONDITIONS.

The book that I wrote on this is being published in NOV 99. That explains the across the board program. If you're interested, fine, you'll gain from the knowledge, for the others, keep your over-educated or otherwise head in the sand and enjoy the sand fleas life.

Later dudes.
Trigger50 <Dmicha@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:25:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.16.130)

Steve
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Mark

Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 23:03:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

http://www,vetothegovernor.com/

Pablito:
Didn't you know to be prepared. Have all of the formulas and constant already in the spreadsheet when you arrive at the range. Get the true direction downrange before the match starts. Then you can just punch in the wind and the theodolite reading for each shot and get an answer in a couple of seconds. When that shot misses, simply allow for it by holding off or adjusting the scope by the amount of the miss and you'll be on in two.

Seriously, that's how the crews of the 155mm howitzers do it nowadays. Punch in the receiving coordinates, fire a spotter, then correct and fire for effect. Or if the target is unarmored, spot for effect.

That's what I like about this page, a free and open peaceful discussion of ideas (two outa three ain't bad). Something for both the technogeek and the "Just shoot it" types alike. Guess which I am from my previous posts.

Anticipating incoming, the rank novice burrows into a deep snowbank.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 23:59:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.20.75)

If you are interested in selling some of it, I would be interested in buying a coupla thou... I just picked up 1000 LC 91 and have been using 1000 R-P. The R-P is about used up. I intend to load the LC 91 and 'put it up.'

Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 02:33:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.16.165.85)

AR15 mags: I have had good luck with the Sanchez 30's...have no idea what color the internals are:) Too bad about Cali. Hear a bitchin' handgun bill is being introduced, or was? Illegal to sell handguns that have not been safety tested by the state...and of course the manufacturers can't send those that are already out of production, so...lots of good "old" pistols will be restricted if the law is enacted.

Trigger: Glad to hear the book is a go. If the draft carried over to final copy...many will enjoy the winter read. What is it 500+ pages? Any word on the new Sebru [I think that is it] BFG50? $1,700 price makes it kinda attractive. Spoke with someone regarding the Knight50...quite delayed, huh?

Anyone hear if BillW is back from the North? Interested in hearing about the shoot Bill, if you are home.

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 03:25:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.30)

Dustin <SEdged69@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 03:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.163)

Quickbow,,,,I see you and your friend are worried about armed trespassers. well buddy alot gave you some good advice in here and listen to it all, but remember in the Ich to see if you and your buddy really are quality shots ect. your armed tresspassers arnt Innert objects or a dumb deer that only knows how to run. Point is just remember one thing, you draw down on somebody you better be ready to live up to the consiquences. One way or another. There is no second chance at life.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula , Mt, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 04:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.146.91.158)

The new "NXS" from Lightforce may be a comer. Looks like an M3-LR with an objective on steroids (56mm)... The whole mildot reticle is illuminated... the battery in is in the small focus knob on the left side, so there are no lumps on the eyepiece... has 95 moa of elevation, and 1/4 moa clicks.

Should sell for about the same.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 11:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.65)

Here is something i think most of you will appreciate reading...

www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_email/98.e-mail.shtml

Maybe more people should be reading this stuff than some of the news
the read in the papers.....

Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
NY, NY, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 11:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.88.50)

Hey Guys,
I just talked to Darrel Holland last night at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree and he showed me a new scope mount he is building and is it ever slick. The mount and the bottom half of the ring is one piece nothing to come loose. He is making them in a one and two piece set up and the one piece will have a built in taper for long range shooting. He said he doesn't have any made for the 30mm scopes yet but will shortly. This would be a bullet proof tactical mount and will sell for around $75.00 thats everything, ring and base since its all one piece!! The two piece looks like a MK4 leupold ring and base set molded togeather, the top half uses the standard top ring half. I have and order in for the one piece when he gets one made for the 30mm tubes.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 13:12:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

You (and son too!)BE famous dudes! P.70 of latest issue of T-S.

You guys see where shooting 60 lbs of Varget a year will get you.....

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:04:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)

Alot has been said about enviornmental effects on here and we have two groups of ideas. One are the guys who study the traditional role of a sniper and that means human sized targets at ranges you have a very good chance of success 400-1000 yards. The other group is geared torward Hard Targets/Missle Sized Targets at extreme long range 1200-1500 yards. I and 95% of you others fall into the first group. For us the equipment and time needed out weigh the marginal benefit. I personally have had no problem with shooting out to 1000 yards with my equipment, adjusting for the wind, reading the mirage, adjusting for temps, dialing the corrected distance(Elevation factor) and just shooting the darned thing.

Reading charts for wind drift and such. I see that anything past 1000 yards has a very slim margine of error. If the other factors help diminish this more power to it, with the warnsing being: What will change why I make my calculations? What will this do to the calculations? Do I have to do the Calculations again? How accurate are my original readings(Wind, Temp, Range)? The world changes quickly and the longer you take to make your shot the more likely something will change and do you.

When we are talking about shooting at any distance, we have to fihure that the farther away something is, the more changes the bullet will go through on its way to the target. The wind will be different speeds and from different directions. It may even swirl. Up drafts will happen. The temperature will be different. Christ I could go on for days. Bottom line is you can not calculate for everything.

Dope it, dial it and fire at it. Learn to read the wind and the basics. Dont relay on anyone for all the answers. Get out and shoot under all the conditions you can. I doubt Steve became the great Shooter he is by using a calculator before firing on the NM Course. I learned by trial and error. That seems to be what most have done.
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:11:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.61)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Interesting article, The Brits do make some superb equipment and firearms, in fact some of it is absolutely brilliant, and not just tactical rifles either.
However, I have noticed a trend over the past decade that the crap lands on the US shores regularly, or what is written up by their Gun Whores as a "world beater" is per just diem drivel.

To deal with a LE agency like the Coral Gables PD and THEIR tactical team rifles like that is downright criminal.

About that $5,200 price tag, I'd rather have a Ruu, Ruuug, and 15,000 rounds of ammo to practice with daily than attempt to deal with that kinda buggery. OUCH.
Heck I could have a car full of anything domestic production for that cost + loop-hole scopes on top!

Guys READ THE ARTICLE and draw your conclusions.

later gaters!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 18:01:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.56)

Mike M,
You are so right in what you said to Ned. When I started shooting out to 1000 yards for the first time I needed a piece of cardboard the size of a Suburban to know where I was hitting!! Strange things happen to your bullets once they cross the 600 to 700 yard line. I can't begin to imagine what it would be like shooting out to 1500 or past that. Trigger must be a drunk or in thearpy by now(HA). Once you get where you can hit something out that far there is no greater feeling of satisfaction. I remember the first time I shot at an IPSC target at 1000 yards, ranged it, dialed it, called the wind and dialed it and hit it all 3 times I felt like I had won the lottery!! Don't be afraid to try it guys, if you ain't missen, your not shooting!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 19:26:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

If you don't have one of these yet, you really do need one,
you might not know it yet, but you do need one.

It is very well thought out and very well constructed.
I can imagine no feild difficulties that would hinder this
sling other that direct fire or cutting with very sharp knife.
All the hardware is top notch also.

Thanks MikeM, and thanks JT for the site/instructions.

buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Happyasapiginsh*tin, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 23:02:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.149.100)

"Jack Daniels is in the freezer, i gotta go rescue it"

I have a very similar problem with Captain Morgan, only he's in the toilet tank at the office:0)
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 01:19:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.54)

Bullet talk time again. Got to get this out of my system!

If...for you younguns that do this for real.....you shoot matches with Match Ammo (ex. fed gm 175's), what do you use for two and four legged critter dusting?

Do you shoot the matches with scope doped for the match load and change the dope for "hunting" loads?

Reason for asking....Suppose I want to use the super-duper-sniper- puper rig for hunting critters. If I use hunting bullets the dope will be different. Would it not be better to shoot matches with the same ammo use will use in real tactical or hunting modes? For instance, could I not use a 300 mag, 190 partition type bullet for shooting matches and critters. Is there some magic about the match bullets?

Bolt crawls back in the hole
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 01:46:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.59)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 01:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Initial impressions of the Model 1:

The sling arrived today. I clandestinely slithered down into my reloading sanctuary (basement); read the accompanying paper and started fiddling around with it. Well, like everyone else has already said, this is some piece of work.

Haven't really sat down with the online manual and walked thru it, because I was too pumped. The thing that stuck me first was it's ruggedness and quality construction. You've got yourself a winner I believe.

Everyone on this site, I consider, is way ahead of me in knowhow, and I admit I'm as "sling challenged" as they come. But I've stuggled with the leather milt. slings and yours was, well, a surprize.

It really seems sort of intuitive as far as putting it on and adjusting. Remember, I don't know jack about using a rifle sling, but the set-up, adjustment, and feel of stability that it provided was, well, it seemed easy. I took it off, deliberatley buggered up the adjustments, back on, re-adjust, and, boom, same stable feel. NEVER have I gotten even this far before.

Like I told you before, I'm at square one with this tactical rifle craft, and want to learn the basics of sling use. Well, this design and the apparent ease of use even at this early stage for me is a great start. I thank you developing this design because it makes me want to learn it.

Now, I'll back off the initial rush and go over the manual.

Thanks Mike.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
lookin for a purse and pumps to match my new sling in Smyrna , GA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 02:47:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.216.123.56)

Bulk/buk thanks for the nice note and I appreciate the compliment. The online manual was something of an afterthought, but judging from what feedback I am getting and the hits recorded in the syslog I guess it was a good one. Will have to do a couple of the photos over again as I am still not wholly satisfied with them, but I am glad you found it helpful!

JeffA do not worry about a new purse and pumps to go with the sling. It was designed to be worn with no other clothing anyhow... just be careful with the buckles and the hair down there.

I just received TRGT-LLP's (http://www.trgt.com) data book in the mail today. The paper has a strange smell that I am not even gonna ask about :-) But it looks liek a very well thought out and thourough design. Now I am trying to decide if I want to transfer all the data from my existing book over here.

For those keeping score we updated a few pages on the TIS website last night including the coming soon page.

Counting the minutes till the weekend and I can get in some more range / breakin time,
JT - Tactical Intervention Specialists Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 04:15:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

Thanks for the 'long range' customer support, you know what for, this bloke owes you one.

Thanks mate

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 04:17:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

BRogers sums it up well,I have used US 1st,2nd and 3rd Gen and some Russian stuff,the Russian gear is cheap and nasty and is a waste of money(in NV gear you really get what you pay for).The only sight's I would buy would be 2nd or 3rd Gen,in 2nd the AN/PVS-4 is a good sight and the British Kite in 2nd,2nd+ and 3rd.In NZ our Minimi gunner's currently use a Litton Ranger sight in 3rd Gen,it's the model with the lower off set eye piece,their only complaint too date is the rubber eye piece fall's off too easily.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 07:46:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.195)

GPS INFO
some may find this of interest:

GPS End-of-Week Rollover Issue

In addition to evaluating its products for compliance with the Y2K, Magellan is also evaluating its products for compliance with the EOW event, which is similar to the date rollover at the end of the century, but unique to Global Positioning System technology.

GPS time is based on a "GPS week number" ranging from "0" to "1023". Week 1023 will end at midnight (UTC time) on August 21, 1999, at which time the week number will "roll over" or re-set to week 0 beginning on August 22, 1999. If a receiver has not been prepared to handle this week rollover event, the receiver may calculate inaccurate position fixes, generate erroneous dates or have difficulty acquiring satellite signals.

"Ende"

T
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 09:55:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.37)

If you are in the military and you are on a two legged critter mission, which bullet are you going to use at 1000 yards ?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 12:06:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

1. Russian 1st gen...not as bad as many say, for a cheap, cheap setup. You can only expect so much for a few hundred, right?

2. A 2nd gen Elcan from NAIT ($1,200 or there about}. This is mounted on an AR, and it will mount on a weaver style base / mount. It has proven to be well worth the money.

3. A 3rd gen NPVS4...best I have seen. Buddy paid like, $4,000 for it? Nice, but I think the 2nd gen is really all you need for 'yote hunting here in midwest. Gun also has a laser devices tool on it, which allows you to see a red dot on target, but not from side or downrange.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 14:24:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 16:43:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Roger
Roger - 90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 16:51:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.192.133)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 17:25:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.126)

Check out the photos section. SC has added three photos that I sent of a Hard Target Interdiction course run in Yakima Washington in 1996.

Average shots were 1400 meters on unknown distances at 3500 ASL, with average air pressures of 26.75, air temps between 35 at night to 115 during the day, slant angles to 20 degrees and varying ammo temps, not staying with the ambient air temperatures.

Any questions guys, please feel free to forward them. Take a look at how the M82A1 is set up in the photos and closely at the other weapons. It was a good course running about 18 hours a day, we had a blast, and further validated that shooting to 1600 meters can be done and is done.

Take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha@swbell.net>
USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 17:59:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.193.24.3)

It's up and running for those interested. Still under construction, but the photo gallery and book section are functional. IBA says more material will continue to be added. Address is:

www.ironbrigadearmory.com

Tim Crabb <tbcrabb@mindspring.com>
Columbus, GA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 18:05:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.69.37.105)

Pretty good shooting, better that 80% of the class getting first round hits on all ten targets. I managed to miss both 9 and 10, at 710 and 740. I need to get out and shoot more. One candidate was wondering about his rifle, so Instructor Sgt. Ash shot the course,with it ten for ten, then shot it again OFFHAND. Missed 9 but hit 10. I need to get out and shoot A LOT MORE.

There may be a few things (OK, more than a few) screwed up in todays military, but it seems we can still turn out some riflemen.
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Friday, August 20, 1999 at 19:06:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.251.118.91)

I hope no one misunderstood JT's statements here. He is very good with a pistol and supreme with a comp, but he is not a sniper yet. He is the webmaster of my site but not an instructor and he does not do reviews. His opinions are strickly his, not mine or Tactical Intervention's

Guys glad you liked the slings. Thanks for the kind words.

NOD's I have used mostly second generation stuff and it worked OK in the woods bad in the city. We usually use 1,2,3 Light as a team with good luck. It takes a team of two plus and is good to about 200 yards with a good flashlight.

Mike
MikeM <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 00:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.100)

Bolt. Part of shooting percision is always dialing into different bullets, Temp range, ect ect. Even if you load the exact same powder and bullets you will have slight variences do to the fact that no powder ever comes out Identical to the last batch. There for anytime you change anything you should check your zero. The one fellah is right Usually variences arnt much different, at least enough to matter when shooting a large animal. But it is worth Dialing no matter what ammo your using, just mark your last zero on your scope and your all set.
Or you can do like me and have one rifle for hunting and one for competition.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula , Mt., USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 14:43:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.186.227)

View your "G" suit,cammies & web gear using a night vision device or a black light. Do they light up like a Neon Beer Sign..?

The newer "Alice gear" will blind you..... does you "G" suit glow...... scary huh...?

K.G. <Kapinman@AOL.com>
So., CA, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 19:52:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.184)

Keep it up!
Franz <Bam.@.com>
Budapest, Hungary - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 19:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.67.250.21)

SHort Note Gentlemen. Doc Holloway, as been under the weather recently and spent some time at the hospital after the Long Range Rifle Course 1 at SMTC I, as Im sure most of you all do, wish him the very best. A true gentleman he is!

Nice to back on line again to agitate the crap out of you guys again!!

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Been off line Here in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 20:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.123)

http://civilliberty.about.com/library/blgpoll.htm?IN2PID=935276713.500514&IN2ID=935276713.500514&TMog=86450240011457&Mint=93856897570438
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
hate gun control, Maryland, USA - Saturday, August 21, 1999 at 22:54:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13)

So far, other than two people commenting on the contents of my post (re: WW2 snipers, specifically in france, {canadian}), no on has had anything to say. I really do find this curious, as i thought there would be someone on this page with some pertaining knowledge. C'mon there guys, if you do know anything about this topic, please put the bore brush down for five, and let me know.

Responses are greatly appreciated.

Truly, i feel i am asking those that should know.

Thank you.
Sean <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
wayyyy up north, b.c. , canada - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 00:15:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.206.15)

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 03:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 04:17:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.168)

I utilize the JB/Kroil method for cleaning and have found that to give me repeatable cold bore shots. By using a data book and lots of range time, I feel comfortable with the moly. My cold bore shots are typically at 100 yds. In my rifle, I usually cold bore 1/2' left and and 3/4 low. My rifle is a stock Remington with the barrel cryoed and re-crowned.

I have had good results in police/military oriented sniper training/competions out to 600 yds.

***Questions - Is Black Hills "Moly" a liability? Would I be better off with the industry standard "Federal Match?"

TIM O'HARE <OSCEOLAPD1@centuryinter.net>
OSCEOLA, WI, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 11:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 150.208.112.162)

Keith,
A .300 Win. Mag. is a great piece of machinery. The only drawbacks are recoil, noise, short bbl. life, and cost of operation. Yes. I do have one and I love it. Give the deer type critters a break and keep your "long-range" shots down to 300 yds(maybe 400???).
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 15:22:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.114)

MIke
MikeM <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 16:16:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.103)

On the other hand, if you shoot CLAY TARGETS with your rifle, stationary clay targets (i.e. on the ground) with a proper backstop, then you should be okay.

Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 18:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.51.23)

Something wrong with this picture i think.

(unless it was being done in the Nairobi desert,i guess)

Whatever floats yer boat. Just hope ya don't live around me.
Sean <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
wayyyyy up north, b.c., canada - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 18:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.206.13)

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 19:22:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.151)

On the other hand, if you own or have access to an area with a five mile clear zone ahead and at least 90 deg. to either side, go ahead. If not, forget it. And, as usual, any damage to property or persons is your problem.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 19:27:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.29.72)

More work with the sling.... Cuff from an old tool belt, make shift glove, tingling fingers... Practice, practice, practice.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Ore. , USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 22:49:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

To the guy who has "Lived,trained with,and used these scopes in real world situations"and know them to be 2mil spacing...........PFFFFFFFFTTTT.Either you were shooting big targets up close or you missed .

Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 23:30:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)

Sooo, okay now: after poking about various regional gun shows for the past several months trying to lay hands upon some Varget and 175 MKs to do some load development work with, I finaly stumbled into some (as well as some Federal 210Ms) at a local gun shop. After paying dearly for them I am now ready to work up a load. Primary question: I am loading for a Rem 700P DM gun. While I do own a RCBS Precision Mic, I have a suspicion that I "don' need no steenking gauge" for this application: Given the long throats that modern Remingtons are fameous for and that the short action dosent give you a lot of room to work with, I suspect that my magazine box is the only OAL gauge that matters in this case. Comments?

Anybody out there have a good load and OAL for my situation that they care to share? The brass will be Norma, if that helps.

BTW, the recrowned 700P "outrage" rifle is now proving to be a pretty consistant sub-MOA shooter, even with ad hoc fireforming and starting loads: I ran some each of 168 MKs, 165 Ballistic Tips, 168 Combined Technology and 155 A-Max through it yesterday. All were seated to mag box lenth on top of 42.5 gr. of surplus IMR 4895 in previously unfired Norma brass with Winchester primers.The A-Max's shot amazingly bad in mine and another fellows rifle, but the others would all go about 1 MOA even with my rusty bench tecnique. Several groups went just over 1/2 MOA aside from a called flyer or two. I think this gun is going to be OK. However, if this barrel proves to not quite have it, how about some specific recomendations. Hart? Blackstar? These are the names I currently have fresh in mind.

I have also initiated a program of monitoring and documenting cold bore 1st-shot performance and have printed up some special targets to assist me in soing so. If anybody is interested I'll see about converting them into a .pdf . Initial results: both intriguing and promising.

Thanks:

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Lovely Colatown, in equaly lovely SC, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 23:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

The idea was to have one area or region host a shooting event 1 time a year with 4 or 5 events held each year. Well a year later the Idea kinda fell apart, lack of communication.

So if there is anyone in the N.M. Tx. OK. or CO. area that is interested in working something like this out let me know

smcguire10@hotmail.com
Stacy McGuire <smcguire10@hotmail.com>
Carlsbad, NM, USA - Sunday, August 22, 1999 at 23:47:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.10.166.96)

MikeM,
Made my first shot with your sling yesterday. Low-kneeling supported and rang a half size steel silhouette at 600 yards. All I need now is to shed about 6 lbs off this 16.5lbs rifle and I'll work on that standing.. Excellent job on your sling!!

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 01:41:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.117.48)

By the way, great site. Keep up the good work.

Dalton
Dalton <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 06:37:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.234.74.123)

I got a response from Pablito right after my initial post a week or so ago. Scroll up and see. I too would like to know if anyone has used this scope yet. I presume the comments already made on it were based on Pablito's initial view of a demo or a show model. I would still like to hear about or better yet see one myself. No offense Pablito, I have no doubt that what you say is true but I still check out all the angles that I can for myself before finalizing a decision. I find it hard to believe that Leupold would set up an illum reticle like that and totally negate the mildots but on the other hand, I have seen many manufacturers just throw something together to get it out on the market rather than take the time to do it right. I hope he saw a prototype and the production run has a fully illuminated reticle and the battery in the focus knob. Oh well, I'll wait and see. Thanks Pablito for the response to my first post.
Jarrod <jboehme@pdq.net>
Baytown, TX, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 10:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.118.9.29)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 12:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.47)

Bruce H. I am always happy when I hear someone likes my slings. You have to understand the slings I make now are on an industrial machince and very well constructed, but the originals were made by hand with blood stains. Not as well constructed but had a certain charm.

I am going to be selling a new rifle bag. The outside is Cordura and the inside a non mildewing light weight fill. They look and work like sand bags but weigh about one third as much. Right now I am playing with sizes. Look for a few at Carlos's Match. I have not set a price yet.

One more thing: Remington Detachable Mags stink. I have to go buy some more. All three are bad now.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 14:31:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.61)

Tom, I'm using the 175 MatchKing w/ Federal Match brass and 210M primer being pushed by 44.5 grains of Varget in my Rem 700 PSS DM. Five shot groups hover around 0.4 inches off the bench @ 2700 ft/sec (supersonic out to 1,000 yards). Groups are independent of OAL. I've experimented from 0.003 to 0.070 off the lands with no significant differences.

I'm not sure how the case volume between Federal Match and Norma compares - perhaps one the "experts" can speak up.

Curious George
Curious George <cg@ibm.net>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 18:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.16)

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 19:02:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.223)

www.dcra.ca/2ndfri.htm sorry, don't know how to make those nice jump link things.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 19:41:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Sniper Country T-shirts are now OUT OF STOCK. Sorry folks, but demand lately has not been great enough to continue carrying this item. If you really, REALLY want a shirt or two, please email me at xring@voicenet.com. If enough of you want these, I will place another order. I currently have just enough shirts to fill orders as of 15 August. All letters arriving post that date will be returned unless you want me to hold onto your check in the hopes that demand justifies another run. Please indicate your desire via email. Sorry for this inconvenience.

Please do not send any further money for Sniper Country T-shirts. Simply email me with your interest and if all goes well, I will have another batch made.

Hats are on back order and will be shipped as soon as they arrive. Thanks again for your interest.

Scott Powers

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, August 23, 1999 at 20:33:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.88.35)

Looks like everyone danced around your last question. Military shooters don't get to check their rifles out to go hunting and they don't get to shoot handloads anyway. Few of the current sloted snipers are on rifle teams so there isn't any problem with zeros between match ammo and the target range. They practice with what they use in the field.

Right now the Marines are using 118SB and waiting for 118LR. The last ones I shot with were from the West coast, this might be different some where else.

One of the local cop dudes used his Remington PSS last year to get his elk. He used a Winchester factory load (150 gn sp) that was close to the Federal 168 that he normally uses. We checked it out to 300 yards and it was off about 3/4 of an inch at 300.

By the way are you a metric or standard Bolt?

Will be at SOF again, might find me at Special Operations Equiptment, or Borders and Associates.

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 03:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

fired up my old Trailblazer XL over the weekend and it is still right on the money, on Magellans website they have a list of units that they checked andthat will have no problem with the week shift.

I compared my Trailblazer with a military honeywell unit, no diffrence for Infantry work, both were of a little every now and then, but still closer than I can find my position on a 1:50.000 map.

Anyone out there with an older unit that had problems with the week shift ???

The russian glonass system is a very accurate system and better than the US GPS ! Because ! they dont induce a fault into the civillian signal. And at this time there are plans to start a european Satnav system as well, also without the Government screw up.

European car manufacurers figure that by 2013 90% + of all cars will have a SATNAV feature.

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
germany - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 11:57:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.27)

A Dumb redneck question: Will those same production vehicles by any chance be equipped with "anti-theft" satellite tracking devices too?

Un-Dude,

Why dont you send me those mags, a little duct tape n bailing wire and they will work fine!

Curious George,
This is what I used to do when I had lotsa time to play:
Weigh each of your test samples, fill with water until up to the neck mouth and weight again. Oh, dump and weight the water too (I used a small kids medicine dispenser cup and re-calibrated the scale to "0".) That will tell you case capacity. Less capacity usually means thicker walls.

Course,
44.0 grains of Varget fills a commercial .308 case up quite nicely with a 168 or 175 gr bullet.......

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 12:46:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.58)

You hit the nail on the head: carefully inspect and then TEST ANYTHING TO BE USED SOCIALLY errr defensively. Like a minimum of 200 rounds of carry ammo.

When I did the retail sales thing, I reccomended a K-frame 3" bbl - round butt M-13/65 normally if slide cycling was a problem. J frames are too small to practice with regularly (IMHO) and the recoil pulse if unpleasant for most women and novices.

Berettas; No thanks Sir! They contributed to Peoples Republik of MD. Commissar Steny Hoyers re-election campaign to the sum of like $100,000. One of them Howard Metezenbaum proteges......

I know this is not "Pistol Country" and the same concept applies to Tactical rifles, right?

later gaters!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 13:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.76)

HEADLINE: A Deadly Serious Camp for Sniper Training
STORY BRIEF: Hastings, Neb. - This was not your ordinary summer camp...

Check out the full story at:

http://www.cnweb.com/tribune/old/june99/june16/

A different story about the same school, in the Omaha paper is at:

http://www.omaha.com/OWH/StoryView/1,,174074,00.html

Both links were still active as of 24 August and they have good pictures so check them out!

Comments:
These are brief stories on the National Guard Scout/Sniper School that ran from the 5th to the 19th of June, on the front page of two different newspapers. It very intensive and well rounded course, conducted to military standards. Some of the staff NCO's from Little Rock were there to give us their blessings on the course and were very surprised at our low drop rate even though the course was quite difficult. We had only 2 fail to graduate and that was due to failing stalks, if I remember correctly, also there were no heat or other types of casualties. The Little Rock SNCO's had many positive comments on the course. They also took notes and asking many questions of the students and staff. What it sounded like was that they may be going to take quite a few of the methods and techniques used at Hastings and incorporate them into their course.

At any rate, it was nice to see some postitive press about the military and about snipers as well. Recognition must go out to Major Brewer and his crew for the hard work that they put into making this course a success as well as the efforts to get media involved to spread the "good word" about snipers.

(There was however, someone who wrote a letter to the editor of the Omaha World Herald bitching that by simply printing a story of this sort, that they were condoning and glorifying killing, violence, war, etc... My only comment would have been that then perhaps that person should hand over his personal freedoms to someone who has earned it.)

My personal thanks to Major Brewer, his instructors and staff (you know who you are) - a first rate job indeed!
For any NG personell out there who have the chance to attend Scout/Sniper School at Hastings, NE (should it run again next year) DONT pass it up! From what some have said, it is a world apart from Little Rock. (No offense intended to the Little Rock guys.)

I should also add that this appears to be the very first time they have allowed ANYONE to run a certifed SS school (for the Guard) outside of Little Rock. Chalk up another first for Nebraska's fine marksmanship program.

Out here.

~Alive and well, Tinky Winky ghillies up and prepares to hunt.~
(You just had to be there....)
CCaspers <DeltaVKPS@hotmail.com>
Omaha, NE, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 14:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.48.72.132)

Anyone have a Rem 700 short action they want to get rid of?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 20:52:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

Thanks
Eric <BadAssMstg@hotmail.com>
Detroit, MI, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 22:08:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.206.171.213)

This is not a bitch post though. Simply constructive suggestions, and a THANK YOU to the shooters who take the time to educate the rest of us on what's out there.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Radioactive, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 1999 at 22:23:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.49.122)

Your micro-html tutorial seems to work just FINE. Thanks for the info.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
tutorial test, GA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:05:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.216.123.56)

Regarding a load for your 175 MKs with Varget. True what you say about the mag. lenght limiting your bullet seating depth tests. Ea. mag will vary somewhat(not much), but you probably can get a cartridge OAL to 2.810-2.830" depending on the individual rifle. I've found that Sierra match bullets do well when seated anywhere from just touching the lans to 0.010" off. But this will vary from rifle to rifle, as well. This can be a moot point with the short action mag. It will fly if you do any single loading since mag length would be irrelavent.

What I've done when mag lenght is a limiting factor regarding bullet seating depth is vary the depth in increments of , say, 0.005" starting with the lenght that would be the max and still not touch the front of the mag well body. It seems that you can still find a favorite lenght (distance from ogive to lans) for a given rifle even if it turns out to be quite a jump before hitting the rifling. I've proven this to my own satisfaction with a SA M700 action with a K&P barrel. The quality and condition of the barrel plays a big part in this.

Also, I would suggest starting with 42.5 to 43.0 gr Varget depending on whether you will shoot molyed bullets or not. Start at a lower charge if shooting non-molyed bullets. Start at 42.5 gr and increase in 0.5 gr increments to no more than 44.0 gr while watching for the "signs" of pressure (ie. difficulty extracting cases; flattened primers; ejector stamp on the case head). I shoot molyed bullets and a load that does well in my rifle is 43.5 gr. Varget w/ 175MK if in a WW case. If in a Lake City or IMI or Lapua case, I will use 43.0 gr. If you wanted to start at 42.o gr and increase in smaller increments, that's fine. Please be very careful and watch for pressure signs. At the first hint of high pressure, back off.

Hope this helps some.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Snyrna, GA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:33:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.216.123.56)

Bert xxxxxxx shot the Natl High Power 4 day Agg next
to Norm xxxxx (the younger). Norm almost won all of
the marbles save one bad string. Bert was shooting
.308 / 155 Sierra . Bert stated that Norm was "inside
my group both in short range and at the 600. I am
convinced to strongly consider switching to the 6.5/08
for next year or a version thereof" ...
Related to this, the Hodgdon Powder Tech Rep was available
on the line. I engaged his opionion of the 6.5/08. He
stated that it is becoming very popular with Varget.
There is a problem, however, of possible early throat
erosion. Seems as though the shoulder of the .260 Rem
is not steep enough. Needs to be 30 degrees so that
the cone of fire will not be out into the lands/grooves.
Otherwise, it is a winner. Norm stated that he
shoots 107 Gr Sierras as short range and 142 Sierras at
the 600.

Maybe Boots wasn't so far off base about Varget Powder after all!

for those who wish to view the original post and webpage it was posted,
http://forums.delphi.com/palma/messages/?msg=95.1&ctx=1
under the heading 6.5/08 or .260 ?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 01:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

I may be showing my ignorance here (wouldn't be a first for me!), but as far as I know you can't get new, unprimed Lake City brass. The only way I know to get it is post-fired or with loaded ammo. But your post has got me wondering if I'm right about that. I'd also like to know if anyone has a source for this brass in virgin condition!!

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 02:16:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.124)

Thanks,
Brian
Brian <bbusc@geac.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 03:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.62.71.26)

Has anyone seen the tasco 3x9 by 40mm mil dot scope in the midway catalog? I know this is not a "quality" scope but havent seen anything on this particular model. Wondering if it is accurate mil-dot or the strange spaced ones they make.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 03:42:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.12)

I must commend you on your choice of a starting rifle. My 308 VS consistently shoots 0.5 MOA out to 200 yards (the furthest range I have access to). There has been a lot of discussion lately on the merits of the Remington DM system. Essentially everybody thinks that it is a total piece of crap.

Do not forget to put adequate money into the scope and mounting. I recommend Badger Ordanance mounnts and rings.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 03:59:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.7.94)

anyway, now my question is:
is this really as good as they say it is?
and Puma:
does this please you that I did not post something stupid and dumb so that you " the professional" are not bored and will not complain????????
TonyD
Montrose, CO, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 04:29:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.192.13.43)

There are some STANAG mounts around, but the last one I have seen for sale was around 200 $. Please note that the original G-3 Sniper version had a small scope mounted. part of the reasom in the mount. If you mount a large size scope (M 3, Mk1, etc) you will run into zero problems as the inertia of the scope will cause the mount to rock during recoil and shift zero. I´ve been there. We were still able to hit the 500 meter targets (see pic´s in Photo Gallery, main page), but groups at 100 really were all over. I went back to a short scope in the same mount and it is fine again.

Gain twist.
The 35 mm Oerlikon Cannon´s we use on the Gepard AA tank have gain twist bores, seems to work for that application.

"Ende"
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 05:14:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.50)

If you qualify, you can get a 1000 for $200 or 2000 cases for $240!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 06:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

NLU# 246 (case, cartridge 7.62mm, 1991 L.C. National Match, (.308), new, unprimed, can of 2000) $240.00

This price was to be effective until 22 August, 1999. Give them a call, this is the only source that I know of.

Steve,
I feel that you may be doing yourself a dis-service by not shooting in the Presidents 100. I missed the Presidents 100 by 12 pts this year. I am still hunting my first points towards distinguished, and was one shot away at the LEG held during the Ohio Regional this spring (I shot a called "5" in offhand when the stock slid off of my shoulder as I broke the shot). I chalk it up to paying my dues. As for what the Presidents 100 means, I long ago decided that if I had the chance to step up to the podium while "Teflon Bill" was our COWARD IN CHIEF, I would make some sort of statement then. I feel that this match is almost the toughest 30 shots you will ever fire, and that is why I put up with the agony of that too long day.(you know what I mean) The real reward in making "The 100" is that to do it you must fire 30 nearly perfect shots without benefit of sighters, all the while competing against some of the best trained and best equiped shooters (military and non military) in the country! The honor of making it should\will stand out on its' own merit. Any time you shoot well enough to earn the Presidents 100 tab you have really done something.
It is too bad that someone who .....well you all know what he is, and has done.....sits in the highest office of our land with no respect for the office, the people, or the Country. As I understand it, he has refused to have anything to do with the rifle match that bears the name "The Presidents Rifle Match", let us hope that we can do better after the next election.

Steve Uhall
steve uhall <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West, Pennsylvania, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 06:49:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.9)

OUT
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 13:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Steve,
I had the chance to have my 3 tactical rifles bore scoped this weekend and I have shot Varget as the main powder in all 3 from day one. I had quite a surprise, my Pac Nor Super Match barrel looks like someone took a rake to it for about 3 to 4 inchs down the bore from the throat!! Its a 3 land/groove and the marks are in the groves not the lands. They are all length ways and not cross cut. The gentleman who bore scoped it had never seen anything like it before. It looks as if the metal is lifting up out of the groves. The rifle has 1425 rounds through it. The 308 with the Schneider barrel has 1860 rounds through it and it still looks like new inside. The VLS stock HB looks like shit and shoots great and cleans up better than the Pac Nor and its a 260 with 1100 rounds through it. He said this was just a typical factory barrel and from the looks of it it should go another 1500 to 2000 rounds. I contacted Pac Nor and I will be sending it back to them for their inspection. Up until a few weeks ago it had been a great barrel and still shoots good but is fouling bad now in this area. It almost appears to be a defect in the metal and not caused by any throat errosion or powder fouling. If the Varget was going to be hard on a barrel it should take out the factory CM first. I don't know how many rounds it would take but those are the results and figures of my rifles.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 13:39:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

I played a Rod Ryan on them also. The Fog was in fairly heavy in the mourning and the Lasers wouldn't work for range estimation. Next stop for a bunch will be the MilDot Master. They all see why the Mildot is a great tool now.

This was an experimental class, in that for budget reasons we split the classes into one 10 hour session every eight weeks. The students were expected to practice no less than twice monthly between classes. They ended up much better shots than the usual way of a straight 40 hour block of instruction. 40 hours is all the time the state will pay for instruction on snipers. It barely gets them half way there usually. All the guys that finished yesterday are fairly good now. If only I had three weeks to work on them

The June Classes at James Jarretts place, with James and a soon to be annoucned SF Major(Who ran the SOTIC) will be on Tactical Intervention in a few weeks. Should be a great time. Two seperate classes. One week with medium rifle. One week of 50 cal. rifle.

Time to go make slings

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacicalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 15:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.140)

I have purchased from Jeff Bartlett before...great guy, great stuff. Never had a disappointment with his brass or bullets.

Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 16:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 20:20:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.184.106)

I dumped my Remington 700VS to acquire this rig. The archives in July mention a lot of QC problems and p%%%-poor customer service from Ilion NY. My experiences dovetailed and I won't be buying a Remington rifle again until the management at Remington changes.

Back to the Savage. The stock is less than inspiring. I've been looking at McMillian and am also waiting to talk to Fred Moreo of Sharp Shooter Supply. He's the one who makes the neat competition trigger for the Savage line and has indicated he's coming out with his own line of fiberglass stocks. But folks here have mentioned the Technicarbon stock. Their contact info isn't listed in the links nor could I find same in the recent archives. I'll be darned if any search engine comes up with a URL. I also tried the online yellow pages and nada. Can someone direct me to where I can find information on these stocks? Sure would appreciate the assist!

-=[Bob]=-
Bob (SD) <bald1@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 21:36:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.207.220)

I also load moly 175 Sierras with the same 46 grains of Varget with the identical setup as those 168s. Shadows have killed off my attempts to get that load chronographed. But what's interesting is examining the reloading manuals for Varget. Sierra's anniversary edition shows the 175 faster than the 168 for an identical 42gr of Varget. The newest Hodgdon manual (#27) likewise shows the 175 faster for an identical load of Varget versus the 168. Now normal logic and the data for all the other powders has the heavier bullet going SLOWER for the same dose of powder. Anyone know why the 175 is faster, all else being equal, than the 168 when using Varget? If true I figure my 175 load to be in the range of 2720fps MV vice around 2670 or so.

-=[Bob]=-
Bob (SD) <bald1@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 21:54:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.31.207.220)

Have not received any email as of last night at the smyrnacable.net address. Will have a look see tonight. BTW, the .260 has been doing alright at the Ft. Benning shoots. Next one is a night match. Outta be good fun.

Thanks,

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 22:00:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

Has anyone used a US Optics scope? Are they available? Are they good, bad?

I appreciate any experience here as good quality scopes are an expensive purchase, and I would like to get this right the first time.

Hank <ninesoft@earthlink.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 25, 1999 at 23:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.244.79.222)

Took the GPS (both of them) out today. They say that the house is still where it was last month, so I guess they still work.

Anyone going to Vegas this time?

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 02:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Shoot with your dominant hand and non dominant eye.

Studies have shown that your groups will be tighter with one eye close as opposed to both eyes open. The groups are close in size but the one eye-shut groups are a little smaller, all other factor being equal.

If you shoot with only one eye, as suggested above, you will not experience image confusion that could occur if the dominant eye was open. Since you are using your dominant hand your hold on target will have more stability. You will also be able to clear potential life threatening malfunctions and tactical or emergency magazine swaps and bring your weapon from ready to firing position more efficiently, since you are using you dominate hand.

You can train you non dominate eye to see better. Patients who need bifocals but want to wear contacts, can train their dominate eye to see at distance with a distance lens and train the non dominate eye to read using a "reading" contact without much difficulty at all. In fact, it seems to work much better than the "bifocal" contact that are advertised heavily. The brain has the ability to ignore to information coming from the eye providing the information it is not interested. Scopes would initially help see the target better with the non dominate eye, but with training you should be able to use the weapon site just as well.

EyeMan
EyeMan <stepmont@dfn.com>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 02:34:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.245)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 03:24:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Despite all the great stuff that has been written about Hodgdon's Varget propellant on this site I still have yet to try it out. Yes, I have broken down and bought a can of it - but I'm still playing around with the ample supply of Winchester W748 I bought some time ago.

I'm hoping some of you have done extensive loading for .223 Remington and .308 Winchester cartridges with both W748 and Varget and can comment on any differences you have found with the different powders. Both are ball (or spherical) powders and last I heard Hodgdon's spherical powders were manufactured by Winchester (Olin). I'd like to know if there is any real appreciable difference in these two powders when used in the above mentioned cartridges. And where would the two powders place in relation to each other on a burning rate chart? [I know the recommended charge weight for both powders in .308 Winchester is VERY close!]

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Thursday, August 26, 1999 at 03:30:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.28.110)