Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

August 1999

Guys, I am in New Mexico after working with James Jarrett for the last few days. This is a very good school and he is a hell of a guy and instructor. I will be writing something later with details Very impressive. Six days in one of the prettiest places I have seen shooting in field conditions.
Jerry Rice< I shot your rifle today. It held 1/2 minute of angle 5 shot group at 600 with the 175's. By the way the groups were shot in field conditions, Not Bench Rest. Great rifle
Big mouth, who ever you are today. I may not have your ego, but I would be willing to shoot agaist you at Carlos. I mean I am only one of those SWAT Types that you say cant shoot.

Rod Ryan, Just spent three days coaching one of your students. I wont use his name, but he came to us one hell of a shot. You do good work. I cant wait and go to your course. Guys I have been an instructor for a while and I will spend my money to go to Storm so what does that tell you about the instruction.

Undude/Still in New Mexico
MikeM <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:31:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.34.154)

Now that Puma or whatever has left the kitty litter box the Bolt has a couple of decent questions;

1. Has anyone ever used a telescope, like a Celestron, for spotting at long ranges?

2. Would it be advisable to find someone to help on determining the the overall length setup when I start loading? A guy at the range started talking way over my head about overall length today. Was discussing the OAL of the case versus the OAL of the assembled round. Do I need a gauge, etc. What model?

3. Went to range today. It seemed as the temp got up to about 100, it felt like the rounds were a little tight when chambering. Rounds were kept on the bench, out of the sun. Any comments?

4. Cleaning brushes........BSC(Before Sniper Country) I generally used wire brushes that were one size larger than the caliber I was cleaning. In Plaster's book I think I read that the service uses 45cal brushes on 30cal. Recently bought brushes that matched the calibers being cleaned and they don't feel tight enough. Do you guys oversize your brushes?

5. On chamber cleaning....Concerned that I'm not getting the chamber cleaned properly. Has anyone used the Sinclair chamber cleaning tool? Do you use solvents or just Breakfree?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:37:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.186)

Pete,

Rifles used were AT C-24's and Norma 168 Moly. Rod and I used M3LR's and ANdy and Wendy used a Bushnell Tactical. The 1/4 moa adjustments are superior for the match but I did score for a competitor that had a "0" for one match due to being out 360 deg on elevation on his 1/4 moa target turrets. (I and others have warned many of you on this fact for a long time).

I picked up my new Armament Tech C-24 that I shot in the competition the day before the match. Andy had zero's for it already (spin drift not withstanding) and my zero's tracked with Andy's. Dudes, I am not blowing smoke up anyones ass here but it is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot. Andy really has something here. Up to this point the most tack driving rifle I had was a specially prepared M40A1 w/Weaver T-10. It was hand stroked by the 2112's and had handloads prepared by the ammo techs at Quantico. It was a tack driver also but this gun gets the nod, AND ITS MINE I TELL YOU, ALL MINE!!!!! Ooops, sorry.

Jeff, You're right about it being a small world. I started shooting with Andy 4 years ago and now we import his rifles. I've been very lucky. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Gooch out
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:45:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.163)

Doing good things for the the wide world of long range rifle shooting keep it up! Bco 1/87 inf Ft.Drum N.Y.
Pv2 Bullard Darrin L <www.LawOfFist@Yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 00:56:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.235.18.67)

Bolt-

On the cleaning brushes. A good buddy of mine who's a gunsmith uses the cyclone brushes. Looks like loops of wire in a spral pattern. He swears by em, says they don't hurt the barrel, and gets em cleaner.

As a side note to all, if you want to get your gun *COMPLETELY* clean of carbon, copper, ect..? Go to your mechanick and beg him to let you soak your action/ barrel (DO NOT GET THE WOOD IN THIS STUFF) in his parts washing tank. Doesn't hurt the finish, takes off all the gunk, and dries completely away REALLY fast. just oil it well after it dries, and it will damn near squeek.
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Life is heat, Maryland, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 01:01:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Forgot to give the thumbs up to the Goochman and team. Used to date a girl who taught me about shooting six months after I bought her her first shotgun. We broke up a couple of years and a couple of shotguns and rifles later. I didn't get custody of the guns.

Question

Stock removal....Can a stock be removed and reinstalled, properly re-torqued of course, and not drastically effect zero? Similar to removal of scope and coming back to 1/2 moa.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 02:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.71)

Does anyone know of a good online (or other) source for the Badger Ordnance scope mount and rings that are reviewed here? I'm hoping there's some better deals out there other than the MSRP quoted in the review. Thanks
Tailback <darrenjones@linkport.com>
Oregon, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 02:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.107.61.51)

To Hugo or anyone else that might know,
I saw some news footage a month or so ago on that bank hold-up in California where the bad guys wore body armor and shot up the city for quite a while before it ended badly for them. The interesting thing was the news camera panned around the rooftops and I clearly saw 2 cops with sniper rifles on the roof. My question is, Why were those SWAT guys not allowed to fire in this instance? OR maybe they were and just kept missing? Whats the inside scoop? The whole thing reminds me of that McDonalds fiasco a few years ago. That was in California also, was it not?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 02:43:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

My father has agreed to give me his Winchester Model 70 Target rifle with the stripper clip notch & iron sights in exchange for a new heavy barrel Remington. He wants the blued model with the laminated stock because he "can't get used to ugly guns". I may not agree with him but to each his own. After looking through the Rem. catalog, I notised that the Police model has a 1-10 twist & the blued has a 1-12. My question is this, How does the 1-12 do with 165-168 grain bullets at long ranges? He doesn't want to switch to lighter bullets. After reding every single thing there is on this site I have figured that this is the place to ask. You guys realy know your stuff. Thanks in advance.
Bill <x556nato@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 02:45:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.212)

Jeff,
Welcome back stranger!!! I thought maybe you ran off with Barb for an extended honeymoon!! Glad Bill got ahold of you he's a great guy we talk alot about that stuff were not suppose to talk about on here(HA) He has come up with some good loads for the 260 and was good enough to share them with me. For my custom gun I have stayed with the Varget and 142s for now, I have been shooting a lot to get ready for the Wyoming match. I will be using 140 AMAXs and Varget with the VLS I want to shoot both of them out there. I will get back into experminting when I get back from Wyoming and will let you know if I come up with anything interesting.

Pat L
I will be in Wyoming on Wed night also. Lets try to get togeather at the bar in the motel at the motor lodge where they have the meeting.

Gooch,
Way to go!! Good to have you back.

Rick B,
Hey Bud, long time on hear, where you been hiding?? We had a good match in Nebraska, we got busted on the stock, but after crawling on my belly like a snake for 2 hrs in the heat I really didn't giv e a shit(HA) This sniper stuff is really a young mans game. After the stalk we were trying to get up enough energy to go shower up before supper and here comes a couple of the "Baby Snipers" in jogging shorts going out for a run!!! We decide right then and there we were definatly to old for this game. The info I got from you was a great help I did decent on the 200 and 300 yard movers but I think I led the 600 yard to far. It was a crap shoot with the 260 on those anyway but it really came on strong in the 600 plus shooting esp in the wind that we had down there. Thanks again for all your help I just wish there was someway to repay you for it.

Bruce,
I have the same problem with the LR as you do. I have two in fact and they both do it . If the target is clear at 100 then I have a problem with the cross hairs following my eye if I adjust it so the cross hairs stay on target then the target is fuzzy. Its not my eyes either because neither my 4.5x14 or my 6.5x20 do it and I have shot them all side by side . I finally gave up on it and I have learned to live with it because I love it for the long range shooting and it seems to only bother at 100 yards.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:17:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.194)

Does anyone have the number to TEXAS BRIGADE ARMROY? It appears their website is down and I am unable to get the number there. Thanks
RTORRES <VRTORRES@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.206.139)

Rick,

Thanks for the correction,seems the Russian's are closer to the correct figure than the West,should have paid attention to detail,like 2TTR.Close enough for Gov't work.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:41:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.229)

Question

Is there a course or material on range estimation for civillians. Is it nessary to use a mildot scope? I currently own a luepold 4.5x14, duplex. Took a laser range finder hog hunting but the batteries petered out and the backups were bad too. Still got my hog, but thought it would wise to get serious about ranging. Having trouble past 400 yds. this info would also be helpful i p-dog and antelope shooting that I do a lot of.

Comment:
Check out the choate Varmint stock. Lighter than the Sniper stock and looks better to boot. Mount the sling studs on the left side and you are ready to go.( yes I hunt constantly with this rig)

Thanks
Larry.
Larry <tmhorn@hotmail.com>
the sticks, okla., USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.155.251.112)

Thanks Doc, Leslie, Ron, "Shooter", Pablito, Rick, and anyone else i forgot to mention.
no leslie, you did not lose me. thanks for stickin with english.
Guys: I was just joking about the umbrella thing. thats cartoon physics, but i thought it would give some a good laugh.
I forgot about that whole "terminal velocity" thing from physics class. Funny, I knew I was losing brain cells from alcohol, I just didn't notice which ones. i do now.
B. Rogers, you think these things are caused by the moon's phases, quite possible. Anybody wanna get a lunar calendar and go back on some of the more recent shootings? It'd be interesting.
Personally, I think it is more the products of our society today. No I'm not crying about the way it used to be, or should be, but many people, especially in cities, are kind of grouped together(for lack of a better term). People lose their individuality. You are not John Doe anymore you are, the guy in division 15, etc. People go nuts in this situation (i think cuz they get no recognition) and they do one thing that seperates themselves (quite drastically too) from others. I think it helps if they're mad at the world for some reason too. Just my 2 cents. Anyone a shrink on here?
I don't know how many of you have noticed, but one can ruin it for all, nationally with gun laws, and right here on the duty roster. That number after the time of your entry is your internet hosts number. So much for good old anonymity. We've lost it here too. Too bad we couldn't turn it on in time to figure out "Puma"/"Master Sniper"'s service provider. To the owners of the site: did you always keep track of this? if so, you'll be able to track puma right??
Tailback : if anybody emails you about the Badger Ordinance mount and rings send the addy to me too please. Or post it here. Thanx.

Bortz out -
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
holding my umbrella waiting for falling bullets in, IL, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 04:53:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.27)

Just got home from selling tickets and killing a few brain cells at the local county fair. Lordy it's hot! How many rounds, on average, does it take to break in a .308 barrel? How do you know when it's broken in?

Pardon me for bragging; but my step-son(damn I hate that word), my son, took the first entrance exam for the Missouri Highway Patrol. Out of 4500 applicants they will only take 60 for their March 2000 class. Any tips on what he needs to know or do would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 05:55:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.216.204.197)

Several points:

On the vertical bullet thing: The air resistance on a body moving in air is a function of the square of the velocity, meaning that doubling the speed quadruples the drag (at least for stuff below Mach 0.9 or so). There is also significant drag above Mach 1. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the only forces acting on it are gravity and air resistance (and gyroscopic effects, spin drift forces, rotation of the earth, solar wind, and myriad other minor forces. Nitpickers will be fed to the "Master Sniper"). Anyway, the bullet drops subsonic in the first thousand yards or so, then the velocity continues to drop until the bullet has a zero vertical velocity.

The bullet then accelerates downward because of gravity until the force exerted by gravity equals the air resistance of the bullet. The force of gravity is a function of the mass (read weight) of the bullet and the air resistance is a function of the size and shape of the bullet. Of two identical bullets made of different materials, the denser material. such as gold, tungsten, or uranium, will have a higher terminal velocity because the gravity force is higher and teh air resistance is identical at any given speed. From what I recall, lead bullets have a terminal velocity between 200 and 300 fps, but I may be way off. Humans have a terminal velocity of ~125 mph in the classic "AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!" position, but skydivers can increase it to over 175 mph by tucking their arms and legs and diving (reducing air resistance). In conclusion (finally!), one of the armed services tried shooting vertically and found that the bullets impacted, but did not fully penetrate the 2x4s the raft was made of. Make mine a Kevlar umbrella please.

On Palma Sights - The CMP just sold off a bunch of new but stored H&R M12s (single shot match 22's) with the Redfield Palma and front Olympic sights. Price was $300. Mine came with '82 vintage sights in their original sealed foil.

For hunting bullets, I prefer the 130 gr Ballistic tips in .270 Win. Of the last thirteen deer I's taken with it, three have run and for less than 30 yards. The bullets penetrate one side, then blow up and the lungs are poured out when field dressing. Since there is no exit wound, tracking is a pain, but meat is also not damaged. Shots were between 40 and 200 yards.

No, I'm not a sniper or a sniper wannabee. If I were, how did I end up with a 134-1x, 120, 112, and 134 on a 80 round 600 yard match yesterday? (And those are some big honkin targets, too!) Then again, I was using a service M1 with W-W 147 gr bulk bullets over 47.5 grains of H4895 without a shooting jacket. I think I should maybe switch to Sierra 168's. Anybody know of a good starting load for those with H4895 - most books only cover IMR4895.

Thanks for the web site. Mostly good folks here, despite the occasional tiff. What's with the sheep? Next thing I know, the board will be full of those sheep drawings, similar to the ones of cows using characters.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.um,n.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 05:57:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.23.103)

Bolt
You can use an astronomical telescope for spoting but remember most telescopes of this type invert the image. Many companies make a special lens for terestrial viewing called an erects image lens. these will turn things right side up for ya. Most astonomical scopes are a poor choice for field use. no waterproofing and much larger than a regular spoting scope but they work on the range ok.
recon
ron <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 06:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.50)

Karl,
Break out a few bucks and buy a Hodgdon Data Manual. I'm sure it will be a great help. Drop me a note if you need a starting load. My manual is out in the shop or I would give you the info now.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 06:16:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.216.204.197)

Badger rings/mounts etc. Contact Storm Mountain Training Center @ (304)446-5125. Last time I looked we had 2 sets in stock. Call for the price.

Pat, on your scope dificulty sounds like your reticle might be a tad out of focus. If your target is sharp but the reticle is out slightly you will have parallax and this is amplified the closer you are to the target.

Range estimation classes. We at Storm Mountain run a series of weekend classes called "Long Range Rifle". Its sniper training minus the stalking, missions etc. Check out www.stormmountain.com for more info and a schedule.

I want my baby back, baby back, baby back...ribs. (Saw "The spy that shagged me" in Canada. Funny flick.)

Gooch has left the planet!!!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 06:45:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.173)

OOOOPPPSS. NUMBER TO SMTC IS (304)446-5526!!!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 06:46:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.173)

Larry and others the Leupold scope of the past few years or at least the variables have a range tatooed on the power ring. Each manual will tell you what the approriate part of the duplex crosshair will cover in inches. You apply that measurement lets say it's 15 inches.
(most are 16) for one half the cross hair and turn the power ring until the 15" antelope fits between the post and the center cross hair and read the approximate distance on the power ring. Graduations are in 100 yards for instance 6 means 600 yards. It only goes to 600 but with a little figuring you can extend the scale. For instance the 6 mark would cover 32" at 1200 yards and so on. Check me on that Steve and see if it's right.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 07:20:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Well it begins. I finally picked up my first 'precision' rifle today (after California's 10 day waiting period (aka pining and whining Period)) and I am really looking forward to putting into practice some of what I have read here in the last few months. I want to thank Mr. Miller, Mr. Jarrett, Mr. Rodgers, Mr. Plumber, mr. Hodge, and Mr. Davis for the direct ongoing help, and Old Dog, Mr. Gooch, Bolt, DM, and even the somewhat rough around the edges Pablito and many others for their posts which I have learned from. Kudos to the SC staff as well for making this resource available. I have decided against the SC/MS tattoo on my butt though.

I grabbed a Dewey cleaning rod - and perhaps its me being naive or overprotective about my new baby but has anyone seen the Pointed brass tip that comes with that thing? Its long and knurled and damn rough looking. The brass was also flaking off on the one I received. I'll be damed if this thing is coming anywhere near my rifling... scarry!

----

To Gooch and the fantastic four - Congratulations on your triumph! Great stuff! Winning comps like that over and over must be a source of immense well-earned pride.

Bulk: Mike can be reached at mike@tacticalintervention.com or tactical@tacticalintervention.com and some smartass even made it so that he could be reached at: dontplaywiththeharddriveanymore@tacticalintervention.com. Yes he blew his aol out of the water a few days back (no great loss imho :-) He will however probably not respond till late Sunday or Monday as he is away form his POP accouint and I am scared to teach him shell mail. (*snicker*)

Larry: If I am reading their webpage correctly - US optics does do enhancement work on Leo scopes. On range finding... I am about to learn this myself, but that thar Undude turned me on to the Mil Dot master and it looks like it will make it 200 times easier. I too am a bit aprehensive of this part of this dicipline and I looked into the options - hard. The only no-math/no mind ranging scope I found asside from ART scopes and a soviet piece of junk, was the Sheapherd and I was warned time and again to stay away from that. Instead I got a leo with mills and am going to beat my mathphobic head into a rock till I learn it and learn it right.

All: The book Term Limits has been mentioned a few times. DM turned me on to it 2 weeks back and its a great read. It was as engrossing to me as the old Tom Clancy.

Too long as usual....
JT - Tactical Intervention Webmaster & Proud FNG <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 10:06:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Bill R.
Your use of the Zoom feature of a variable scope is sound. And I am surprised that no one else has ever mentioned it on this site. I call it the zoom and boom technique. I have a lowly Simmons 4x-16x mounted on a 98 mauser 30-06 which has given me no trouble at all and I use it as follows. If I zoom on a 6 foot target and expand the target till it fits between the thin opening of the duplex, the range equals 1/2 the power setting. 4x = 200 yards , 8x = 400 yards , 16x = 8oo yards.
It is a little clumsy to get a good reading using this method because it takes one hand to work the power ring while you are trying to hold the rifle steady but it can be done. And it is much better than nothing. It is the same principle that was used on the ART scopes of the Vietnam era only they had a ballistic cam attached to the power ring to correct elevation automaticly as you found the range.
Next time try giving me a little more numbers to work with so I can properly nit-pick. But I still say if you want to be BEAMED UP, you have to ask Scotty to do it, not Spock because Scotty runs the transponder, and the name Scotty means he is from Scotland, not Nova Scotia. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 11:50:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Rick B., Glad to see your comments my brother of snot. You gonna make it up here sometime this year? We have to re-confirm our brotherhood with much pagentry.

Have not had a chance to call or write but, thanks. You know what for.

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 13:32:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.158)

I´m back from my trip through France.

lot´s of concrete !

T
"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 14:20:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.43)

Mista Gooch,

Thanks for the feedback on the match.

Would it be too much to get you to once again expound on the subject of 1/4 MOA vs. the Loop-hole "BDC" system for UKD shooters. My frail and half senile old mind forgot to copy to disk..........

Would this be "Minute of Torso"?

code named "Chao Team 1-2" when in Wash, D.C. area ;-)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 14:28:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.32)

Way Off Topic: my dutiful daughter keeps me apprised of the Darwin awards. If youn'z have a minute - take a look at some real winners.

http://thyme.aspire.net/darwin.html

Problem is that those winners might have bred before they were removed.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 14:55:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.38)

Steve (NATO):Hey, maybe Scotty was from Nova Scotia.Translation of this name is: New Scotland, if you didn't know.

I know the new Remington .300 Ultra Hype Magnum is out in the marketplace now, do any of our visitors have one of these beasts yet? If so, how well does it work?

I read Lame Simpson's review on it in "Shooting Times" and it seems the initial factory loadings with IMR 7828 weren't living up to expected performance figures.

Anyone?

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, New Scotland, Canada - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:27:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.60.19)

Hi:

I am trying to get tooled up to start Parkerizing and have the bead blast cabinet and air compressor to drive it and sources for chemicals and such. The stumbling block is that I dont want to cough up 130-some odd dollars to Brownells for a stainless steel park tank. Anybody out there have any alternative suggestions?

Also, I am using the 1" IOR QD rings with my 40mm 3x14 AO Vari-X II on my 700P, and I was suprised at how high the scope ended up over the rifle: looks like these rings would work nicely with a 50mm scope. The cheek pad on the Eagle pouch helps a lit but the rige is still less than ideal, IMHO. Any specific recomendations on comperable rings that are a bit lower?

700P "Outrage" update: Crowning tool set from Brownells has arrived and I have recut the crown to factory-looking specs, with an 11 degree crown and a 45 degree bevel at the muzzle apeture. Its certainly a huge improvement but the 45 degree cutter chatters slightly when driven by hand no matter what technique is used. Should I try to clean this up by getting the power drive adaptor for the cutter set (use with a drill or electric screwdriver), lapp the chatter marks out or simply cut the face of the barrel on back with the 11 degree cutter and eliminate the 45 degree bevel entirely?

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:36:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.175.250)

Jeff B."The Ultimate Canadian?" :-0

I don't have one yet, BUT the case design, volume, and of course that loved by all Remington action have serious potential.
Too rip off Waynes World "I WILL HAVE THAT GUN......."

I posted a few weeks ago, that quite a few writers have pooh-poohed it, but that also occured with the .260 Rem. This has been proven wrong by Mr Bullet, TorF, Jeff A. and a couple others.
In fact Pats nearly as bad about the .260 as I am with Varget, Of course, HE DOES USE VARGET!

Time will tell all,

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:44:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.81)

Rod: I mailed a package to smtc several weeks ago, you get it? If not, one of the local goat breeders is probably wondering if it was a sign from God to commence warring.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 15:51:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Jeff B:
Read and enjoyed your review of Choate stock in review and to be completely honest have never considered the possibility of the bipod mount coming loose under recoil and although mine never has I will correct this deficiency by drilling pilot holes in T-rail and replacing thumb screw with knurled/hardened unit available from Graingers.I however think that you missed the point with the butt elevation screw as I don't believe that it was ever intended to be a rear monopod.I use it with a small rear bag gripped in my little finger,ring finger,side of middle finger while gripping elevation screw between middle finger and pointer finger and tighten it all up with thumb.This allows you to make fairly large elevation adjustments with the knob and very small accurate adjustments by squeezing bag while allowing you to pull the weapon tightly to your shoulder using the knob,bag and sling.When using this method off a bipod it is very stable and allows better control/sight picture while cycling bolt for follow up if needed.

So only two of you do math when mil-ranging and the rest of you rely on somebody elses printed material?What about you Poomah,what do you use?Instinct?
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 18:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.77)

'LIIITTTOOOOOOO!
DUDE!! You gave up my biggest secret!!

To all the folks that helped with the parallax problem..
THANKS!!!
You guys are the best..

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 18:37:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.117.8)

Tom-

On the stainless tank- go to a couple of scrap yards (read junk yards, not he car types though) and look for an old stainless steel sink basin, some of em even have an attached work area. Most were made a LONG while back for ppl to use in workshops or in greenhouses/gardens. My granmother had one, nad my dad now uses it in his garage (he's an auto mechanic) for washing his hands, parts, letting chemicaly treated parts dry, ect... Practically indestructale. And you can get your local metalshop to set the drain up to work how you want.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
No where, Maryland, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 20:24:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

A question on camo, concealment and detection..
What is the most effective way to camo the face? I've seen a million different patterns and color tones, but which one is the "best" way?
Any pictures??
When wearing a ghillie, do you camo your wrists?
What's a reasonable distance to target without being detected while fully camoflaged? Using a field of meadow grass of around 12" for reference..
What's a reasonable distance to target without being detected while discharging a rifle?
I understand there will be many variables, but an average would work fine.
After taking the first shot, does a sniper maintain his position until threat levels reduce, or does he haul ass??
When shooting through tall grass, I'm sure there is a deflection. Is there a factor for this? I know that noone is gonna post an answer here, but I would like to know via email if possible.
Any reply appreciated.

Bruce E
I have to agree with you on the Choate.. I've never considered this, or had this happen to me either, but it is something to consider.
I would like to add that the Choate isn't all that bad a stock. It is heavy, but for me it's a good fit. The extra weight really tames the recoil which is a plus for me after my shoulder surgery. I'm gonna add the 2+ pounds of extra weight in the handle grip to help out further. This stock and a factory Rem 700 BDL and I'm shooting .5 MOA and better groups. I'm sure it would do better with a better shooter behind the scope. As for the "monopod" in the back, well I never use it.. I just sand bag and go.. For me it's quicker.
As for mil-ranging, I don't think you can beat the Mil-Dot Master for speed and I think it's formulas are fairly proven. I would trust it over a calculator anyday.

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 20:26:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.117.8)

Bruce H-

As far as patterns for facew camo, it is highly subject to opinion, but you want to break up tyhe natural facial shadowing. there is a fairly good article on this site on the topic. Also, yes, if your wrists are exposed, you should camo them. Thre should be no skin showing, or as little as absolutelly possible. As for observing without notice, I have personally hidden myself in a stand of briars, that offered me good observation, and had a group of guys on patrol walk about 3 yards by me, and miss me. This was during a paintball type game. Muzzle flash can be reduced by having the rifle muzzle back a bit from concealing features, so that the window of observation to the flash is ghreatly diminished. At even 50 yards, it would require direct observation of the flash to see it. Keep in mind this is all IMHO, and my observations. Some of you guys a bit more experienced in this area care to pick me apart? (actually I would welcome the criticism)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
It is *FINALLY* raining in, Maryland, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 20:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Bruce E.
I do the math in my head for closer ranges (<400 yards). For longer ranges i have a nifty excel spreadsheet that I printed out and keep in my log book. If anybody wants it feel free to email me.

Bruce H.
Never shoot through tall grass. Anything the bullet hits hill deflect it unpredictably. I heard a story of a benchrester who hit a single blade of grass and the bullet made a perfect keyhole in the target.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 21:22:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.7.114)

Bruce H.:

Actually, I don't do the math each time, no need to. Make a little card of the essential items, and some frequently-used settings. Then tape it to the stock. Don't use a bright white index card, and if you make it nice enough, go ahead and laminate it.

Then, use your head and double-check it, make sure that it makes sense.

L
Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:06:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.249.22)

OOPS, I got my Bruce backwards... the math-thing was really to Bruce E.

Bruce H:
Darken your higher points when camoing up. Don't do the goody-goody poster-boy job with razor sharp divisions in the different colors, it won't show up; instead think of a mudpack, with darker colors on the higher points such as your chin, nose, and cheekbones; but don't be symmetrical.

If your wrists are showing, camo them or cover them up. In cooler weather, I took old green socks and cut finger holes in the toes, and wore them under gloves/sleeves. That way, everything between the cuff and the glove is covered, w/o having camo paint getting all over your watch, etc. You might try covering at least part of a wrist with one of those olive-drab watch covers.

Leslie <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.249.22)

OK..OK...I understand that you don't have to do the math every time and that you record frequently used mil-readings in your log BUT...... when you do the math what formula do you use?
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:31:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.184)

Steve; thanks for the information and folks Steve has expanded to using the actual power ring and that will work on any scope. The marks on the Leupold ring are actual yard marks. The older ones didn't have that. Just wanted to avoid any confusion. But any varx scope can be calibrated to read range as we described.
I sent Texas Bruce a more detailed explanation of my voo-doo math method of Mildot calculations. But Jeff I might say that if you record the size of your target in tenths of a yard providing your using yards the mildot math becomes 6th grade stuff real quickly.
Meters can also be done this way but Mericanos are not normally able to convert or guess metrics due to their yankee upbringing!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:49:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Mil math.

Target dimension in inches x 27.8/mils measured = distance (yards)
Target dimension in inches x 25.4/mils measured = distance (meters)

The reason the mildot master's formula works is that all the MM really is is a slide rule with bells and wistles. It is faster than a calculator and functionally more accurate since when all of the variables are plugged in you can confirm all of the values of the variables at a glance. You can't do that on a calculator and this leads to mistakes sometimes.

On the 1/4 moa vs tactical scope "BDC" thing. In tactical shooting the "BDC" is better because we are not popping "V" rings in real life. A shooter can hold off slightly for medula shots if he needs to up close with a tac turret system. The micrometer type turret scales on target scopes have messed with even experienced shooters under stress. I have seen at least 2 people take cold bore shots with thier elevation turrets 1 revolution/360 deg too high. Most tactical turret systems (M3A/M3LR) will not make more than 1 complete revolution to prevent this.

I'm not totally against the 1/4 moa turrets, just be forwarned that you realy need to learn how to read them and record data with them.

Don't get too riled about camouflage patterns. Just tone down the face with colors that match the surroundings and lighten the low points (eye sockets) and darken the high points (cheek bones/chin) of the face.

Out here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 01, 1999 at 23:54:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.180)

Anone know of any place online I can order Mags for a 45 colt commander besides Wilson or les baer? I can't seem to get onto either site currently, and want to order some new mags. Sorry for the off topic post

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
frustrated in, Maryland, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 00:15:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

Gooch, Gooch, Gooch - Why do you confuse with all those wierd numbers? Use height of target times 1000 divided by the mil reading (h x 1000/mils) for an answer that is in the same units as the target hieght. As an example, 1 meter tall target gets answer in meters, 1 yard tall target gets answer in yards, feet - feet etc. So a 6 foot man equals 2 yards, 2 x 1000 = 2000, he is miled at 4.5 mils, 2000/4.5 = 444.44 yards away. It is said that this is not accuate enough for some, ( the answer with the long numbers and inches is 444.8 yards)but I have never missed a target from the range being off and that is the only formula I use, when the Mil Dot Master is lost and not in my hand. Just as a point of interest and a cool party trick, most humans are 1 meter from top of head to crotch when their height is between 5' 6" and 6' 4". That is the reson for the 'E' type target deminsions.

Pete R - On the 1/4 moa turrets, I wouldn't waste my money on a turret that changes the strike of the bullet at 100 less than the diameter of the bullet and only 2 inches at 800. When ARE you zeroed? That is the problem, and I have seen guys fire untold wated rounds thinking they need just one more click when in reality it was just their normal group size. The Palma Team went to 1/2 moa turrets on their sights for that very reason and the that it takes too many "clicks" with too big of a chance of screwing a shot. OFF the soap box now, seen too many screw ups as Gooch noted! On the 1 moa "BDC" (Not really one but what the hey) of the M3, if you are out on the zero, zero high that .5 moa, there are features below the aim point on the noggin that do not exist above.

Bolt - You mentioned (shudder) breakfree. I would not let Breakfree anywhere near one of my weapons. Use normal carbon solvents (Shooter's Choice, Hoppe's, etc,) Breakfree really only "floats" carbon away and does a piss poor job of disolving it. It then leaves a residue after the vehicle has evaporated.

Chris - Even our military snipers will argue until blue in the face over the 3.375 thing, it is ingrained from those dam compasses! Seems only the civies here on the Roster know the truth. Yes Gooch you're a civie now too!

Pat - Thanks for the kind words, 600 movers are a pain since it is possible to require a hold BEHIND the target to hit it when the target speed and wind all conspire to cause a problem!

On Ghillie suits and camo - Ghillie Suits are hot and will cause a problem. Try out the long underwear before you go into the woods with the stuff on. You may find that you will have sweat up a storm and then can't dry out with all that gear on. Use a strap to hold down the shirt, it will ride up if you must crawl out of a bad spot backwards. Also attach the sleeves with loops so that they go around your thumb or finger for crawling, unattach for shooting. And attach a loop to the cuffs of the trousers for attachment to the boot laces when crawling to prevent the legs from riding up. Camo ALL skin that is exposed or MAY be exposed. Remember you may have to remove the top to attach new natural camo while on a stalk and this has the potential for exposing your lilly white skin. I'm lucky in that mine is old and wrinkly, not much shine there! As master Gooch stated, use blotches and stay away from that movie crap, it only makes you stand out more.

Stalk - the normal distance is classified as 200 meters for a shot without detection. Muzzle flash is not your worry, muzzle Blast is the problem is the grass. You need to set yourself in a position that afords stand off from a covering piece of terrain of vegetation that will not be effected by the blast due to the distance from the weapon to the item. After the shot the situation dictates your action. If you have stirrd up a hornets nest and the world is ut looking, your FFP will NOT hide you as shown in the Sniper movie. You best get into a move out mode with a well concealed escape route already picked out. Remember, the stalk is in and out. Not just in, take a shot and walk out. You must escape or it is a one time mission, those suck.

Crap, this is way too long and I do appologize. If you have more questions then give me an email and I will try to answer your questions. Sorry Sarge!

Rick
Rick <RBowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 00:36:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)

Gooch, in Military and Police Sniper on page 29 you indicated that the nuts on the rings should be on the left side. Is there a reason for this? Guess I screwed up again!

I onts me one of them AN/PVS-9. That is SEXY!!!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 00:41:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.51)

Lito and Doc and Everyone Concerned, Yes and you too Rick B. My Job is so secret I dont even know what to do. But they nicknamed me Knights Sword. <:::::::::::::::[]xxxxx()o. Pretty snappy huh? Now its so secret Im trying to find my ass with both hands.
Bring me those top secret clearance documents for cannon fodder!!

SHIT.

al o. Knights Sword.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Secret City, Ohio, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:16:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.81)

Thanks to Rick, Pablito, Shooter and Karl, among others, for your responses to my question re Palma sights. I've been target shooting for years but have only been familiar with the Lyman/Mossberg/Williams sights on .22's. Then I got one of the M12 rifles from CMP with the Redfield sights, and was amazed by the workmanship. After 300+ rounds with that rifle, I decided I need a centerfire rifle with sights of that quality. Your collective opinion seems to be the Palma might not be the best choice, however. So my obvious question is where to find info on the newer sights (Rick mentioned OK Weber, for example). I can find nothing on the web using the obvious keywords in various search engines. I would appreciate help in locating manufacturers, distributers & etc. I am starting down a whole new trail here, folks, and I thank all of you.
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:19:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.188.65)

peteR: "The Ultimate Canadian" EH !!, Hmmm...maybe not.To earn that prestegious title I'd probably have to eat seal meat every morning for breakfast, chop down lots of trees during my spare time, know your friend in Vancouver (5000 kms away from where I live), and shit hockey pucks every morning at precisely 5:00 AM.

I'm a little confused about your comment about Varget...I mean I was under the impression that EVERYONE used Varget.Don't they ? It even makes a great seasoning when I run out of pepper when making moose burgers.

About the .300 Ultra Yawn.Yup... it's probably going to develope a cult following just like the .260 Remington.I'm just curious just how far a RELOADER (sorry Puma)can take this cartridge since its a foregone conclusion Remington is going to sandbag the loads for liability and safety concerns.I'm betting there's gotta be another easy 200-250 fps. just waiting to be tapped over and above Remington's published velocities.

Bruce E: Thanks for the compliments on the stock review.I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I tried the adjustment screw on the bags as well and I just couldn't seem to make it work properly for me or feel totally comfortable with it.However, I'm pleased to hear you made it work for you.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.61)

PaulS...
O.K. Weber is (541) 747-0458 (Thanks to Rick Bowcher!)

Bolt...
The nuts should be on the left side, because you are moving your hand on, in, and around the right side, and you need the space, clearence, and don't want to cut up your knuckles...

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.58)

Paul S.,
Try http://www.okweber.com and http://www.brownells.com. Drop me a note if I can help. I'm not that far away from you.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 01:52:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.216.205.95)

ABOUT THE PALMA REAR SIGHT.Alot has been said about this sight.This sight is ok for what it was design to do.On the M-24 it was the sight the Army used.It also was a sight used a lot by High power shooters.If you want this sight it can still be found.But there are better sights.The sight made by O K Weber and also the RPA sight.Champions Choice have these sight in stock.

RTORRES. Here is the information on TEXAS BRIGADE ARMORY.
906 MIDDLE RUN
DUNCANVILLE TX 75137
972 298-7048

Gooch.Congratulate on your win.Did you see Charlie Blackwell from Texas.He went up with the All Guard Team.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC@CIRIS.NET>
C.C., TX, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 02:46:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.51.228.89)

Thanks to those of you who responded to my mil-ranging question (even if I did have to shame you into it by asking Poomah :) )and the winner from a simplicity standpoint would have to be the Bill R.,voodoo math.In recognition of this I recommend that he be annointed the title of "VOODUDE".Thankyou all very much.
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 02:55:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.211)

Bolt and all,
Celestron Spotting Scopes can be found at Eagle Optics,
www.eagleoptics.com or Ph.# 1-800 289-1132......

When I first started hunting long range 11yrs. ago we started out with Celestron spotting scopes...The ones we have are 20x-50mm,...... Now you afto understand we take our spotting scopes and mount them in to a bracket so they are basically a BIG pair of bino's but much much better.....and heavier......The Celestrons are in my opinion as good as any spotting scopes in the same price range.....

This outfit Eagle optics offers the Celestron Ultima 80 Spotting scope with a 80mm obj.lens for $298.00 and 25x eyepiece for $49.00, 50x eyepiece for$88.00 and 20-60x eyepiece for $168.00 (97 price sheet) all weather proof....So it might be worth checking out....

If you are looking for a really good tripod they sell Bogens, and can get any that are made......If you are not familiar with this name, go to your local camera shop and ask them, they are one of the best on the market,......and are highly adjustable.....as a matter of fact they make one that will hold 44.5lbs is adj. to 30" and only weights 10# I am thing of getting one and making portable shooting rest that is highly adjustable for long range hunting .....a sort of return to battery rest that dosn't weight as much as a VW.....we pack every thing into where we hunt so weight is a major consideration.........

Hope this helps_______________BigGunn___________________
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn.Country, Pa., USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:18:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

Oh I forgot Eagle optics also sells all the big names in spotting scopes too........check out their web and you might save eagle shit!!............... later__________BigGunn____________
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country, Pa., USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:28:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

Quickbow,
On the Colt mags try www.dennysshooters.com or Dennys Shooters Supply 1-800-747-3845. Good Shooting
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
OR, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:55:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.2)

I'M getting ready to play a little with cold barrel shots this week in my 300WM. as I was loading some new brass a question occured to me.
I have been told to set size dies for belted mag cases so that the shoulder is not set back and that is my normal routine. Now I wonder when i'm using new brass for the first time will i notice an accuracy shift or a point of impact change becouse the brass spaces on the belt?

I have been getting very good results with 27 grains of varget in .223 military cases with 55 grain FMJ out to 300yrds. waiting for some 69grainers to come in to try also.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:57:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.10)

Dean M.
If you manage to independantly confirm that ADI is burning at consistent temperatures regardless of external ambient temperature,please let me know.

Also, for those that can laugh at how we sometimes perform on this site, I have just read Major H. Heskith-Prichards "Sniping in France" written soon after WW1. He cites spindrift for the .303 cartridge.
Might have to go to the archive and re-read that stuff.

.............................................................
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
deep south - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 03:59:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Ron; It's possible but you will probably just see a reduced group size after the first firing unless you shooting very long.
Others need to comment!
B. Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 04:16:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

ebay has a leoupold vari X III 6.5 x 20 for sale. auction ends 8-2-99
the current bid is only like $300.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 04:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.10)

Rick, Rick, Rick. I went to the dimension of targets in inches x 27.8 or 25.4 for dealing with small objects such as vehicle wheels (15"/16") or when dealing with a object which is an odd dimension such as an M16 @39". It is easier for most of us grunts to just multiply by a constant than try to figure our what the yard equivelent of 39" or 12" is by dividing by 36. It just takes a potentially confusing step out. And besides we are teaching the use of the mildot master and all of the dimensions on it are in inches.

Actually if we judge the dimension of the target in mm we just divide by the number of mils for distance in meters right?

Darryl - Spin drift? JFC! I take my rifle to the range and establish zero's at hundred yard intervals from 100-1000 yards. It is a freak of nature that there is absolutly no wind that day. I notice that at 1000 yards I have to dial in 1/2 moa of left windage to keep my group centered. Is it spin drift, a cant in the scope, a cant in my position, bad trigger control, unequal pressure in my grip hand, stock weld or support hand? Or maybe it is because of the angle of the sun or the fact that I laced my boots left over right instead of right over left. Who really cares? For all practical purposes as long as I consistantly do the same thing when I shoot I will hit my mark under the same conditions. If I need 39 minutes of elevation and 1/2 moa (L) wind @72 degrees, at a barometric pressure of 29.1, with 60% humidity, no wind, yada yada yada... I will need the same dope the next time I go out under the same conditions UNLESS I CHANGE SOMETHING IN MY FIRING TECHNIQUE. THe spin drift won't change in all practicality unless the rpm's of the round changes drasticaly or the laws of physics take a 180 degree turn overnight.

Pay attention to the fundamentals, establish solid zero's on a known distance range and develop consistency in your technique. Screw all of the artillery shit. Do these things exist? Sure they do, but correcting for spin drift is like correcting for drag deceleration. Its automatically taken care of when you establish zeros at specific distances.

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 04:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

Gooch,
KILL IT BEFORE IT GETS US AGAIN!!!!
PLEASE!!!!
A.Rhoda <aguidor@yahoo.com>
N.O., LA, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 05:00:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.145.14)

BARREL CROWNS

Comments on the most suitable barrel crown for a tactical rifle. I will be crowning my new Shilen barrel for my .308 Rem 700 and am looking for ideas. 11 degree target crown is popular, however a recessed target crown seems more tolerant to abuse in the field. What if any, are the pros/cons of the various crowns. Thanks.

Mike S
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
Southern, Komifornia, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 05:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.149)

Gooch,
Bloke, you crack me up.After all the crap in the office, I got time to read your post on spindrift, I couldnt help but laugh,especially when I heard all those cyber-groans.

To re-iterate, I wrote to all those with a sense of humour, especially about past heated topics. I was not trying to re-open the topic, which should not be a problem anyway.

As a point of fact I was interested to note that the issue was noted by the pre-eminent Brit sniper Heskith-Prichard. I thought others may also be similarly interested. Relax, take a deep breath.

AHHHHHHH I cant help it>>>>>>> the book says adjust 1/2 in against direction of barrel twist for every 100 yards for .303

..................................................................

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 06:20:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Wow what a site!

Anyone here use a Ruger .270Win?

Whats spindrift?

Mike
M. Kroger <Kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 06:40:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Finally got the M3 on target Saturday with the nuts on the politically correct right side. Had a guy beside me swear that if I called him as a witness he would testify to an honest 3/4", five shot group, damn near in the center of the square. There is not enough valium in the world to get me to take this scope off and turn the rings around. JFC, use guys just ignore it and assume that you if see someone that looks like he doesn't know what the hells going on, and has his rings backasswards, his name is BOLT. Along with a set on the 300 and Delta!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice to read the crowning info. Looked at all my Remingtons and none of them have a noticable crown, not even the PSS. Hell my AK has more of a crown. Started watching Plaster's video yesterday and it looks like the Robar has a recess and a heavy crown. What is the proper corwn for these long range weapons? Didn't read an answer to the lapping the crown question.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 11:54:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

BTW, I have a new HS Precision, short action, M24 stock with adjustable LOP in the emporium for $325 shipped.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 11:56:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Seems like Gooch keeps lots of notes in order to be the success that he is. Seems like that would be a lesson in itself. If it were me I'd probably watch the target run off or get killed while I was trying to find the note I needed. Seems he has trained himself to estimate targets in metric. Like I said yesterday most of us look in inches and that complicates the MIl dot formula to a degree. Hence restorting to Voo-doo.

Target crowns seem to be 45 degrees but I think it is kind of a variable depending on a lot of things just put a good smooth grind at the end of those riflings and it will probably shoot for you.
Someone yesterday mentioned the tools chattering and that is a problem
but I don't know if you are using a common brace as opposed to power drills and the handles that come with it. But if not go to a common carpenter's brace and back off the pressure and that won't happen.
I get laughed out of the room for this one but a cone shaped dremmel tool bit will do the job if you take your time and don't over grind it.
Those nuts should be on the left side because when your making a movie the camera likes to shoot snipers from that side. In the movies you adjust your windage and elevation with those nuts. I saw one do it the other day.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 12:33:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Mista Gooch,
You speak volumes as usual, I seen the same thing happen down in Nebraska with a cold bore shot in the early morning, "ONE" complete revolution off. I don't think you can beat the M3LR for tactical shooting at unknown distance. I have however come to the conclusion that you need two rifles to shoot in some of these matches, one set up for unknown distance long range shooting and one set up to punch out little dots at 100 and 200 yards with a 20x scope with 1/4" clicks!! Tell me there really is a place where the wind doesn't blow all the time and you can actually shoot without it being a factor, please tell me its so!!

Pablito,
Got your e.mail and when I get a cloudy evening I will give it a shot and let you know how it comes out. If it works the beers on me!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 13:16:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Just a quick note. Sent off the last of the Long Range Tactical Rifle students from class Juliet 26 and have to return to the range with a new bunch this AM for tactical handgun.

Finally had a chance to work with Mike Miller. It was a real pleasure to have someone around that could not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. He is an excellent instructor and my students not only enjoyed him but learned from someone whose experience shows. He has an uncanny ability to make range estimations and corrections. He is just sick enough to be fun.

I also worked with his slings and mounted them on my FN. After I figured out how not to hang myself, I found they are preferrable to anything else I have used and superior to what I have been currently recommending. They are worth a hell of lot more than he charges.

BTW, the man can shoot. 3.75" at 600 yards under field conditions is good in my book anyway. He was also able to pick up my FN with NATO loads and hit a 20" disk at 750 yards with open sights. I did it, but it was my rifle. I'd take this guy on a mission anywhere, preferrably as point as he is a lot bigger than me and I can hide behind him:-) We had some great arguments about Wac0 and Ruby Ridge, the ATF and our favorite people, the FBI while we were crawling through the brush murdering rural rats (prairie dogs). Good men can disagree and remain great friends. A lesson that seem to be often forgotten here on the site at times.

I use prairie dog hunts as it allows my students to put their stalking and shooting skills to work on live targets. Makes it all come together for them.

The T.R.G.T. data books and Mildot Masters are absolutely the way to go. I have to try and weasel a wet weather pen out of Butter Bar to see how that works. I have used a variety of databooks over the years and this one is absolutely superior, hands down. Now, if they would come out with as good information for duplex reticles as for the mildot, that would be impressive. Some of us still know how to shoot with a real scope:-)

I have already commented on the Slope Doper from Depity Dave. My students must have one of these as we definitely have high angle shots in this country.

The course leader for Juliet 26 was a former 82nd Airborne trooper and has been through SMTC. He is one hell of a shooter. I have trained lots of shooters in the past 30 years and this guy has world class capability. SMTC did an excellent job with this guy. My respects to the SMTC staff.

Well boys, its off to torture a new group of students.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
AZ&NM, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 13:38:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.34.162)

Okay,

Sarge & EMT-B/P's at S/C:

What is current protocol for a snake bite? Elevate wound above heart/ ice pack it, and evacuate to hospital? (Veterinarian for Al O?)

Are them venom-jac "Extractors" worth the price, or plain vanilla snake bite kits? I'm putting together my "kit" for October and want to plan for worst case scenarios.

Bill R.
How did you kill the rattler, Ninja Death Touch? Shot cartridge? or is it "classified" :-)

Al,

Looks like Saturday nite, instead of Friday as per tele-con regarding the short-timer, you cheee-chako you!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 14:43:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.158)

Pete; 2 things I learned this summer.
1. .223 muzzle blast will kill a jeep rear view mirror at 6".
2. .223 muzzle blast will kill rattle snake at 1'. (they taste like tough chicken. Kind of like frog legs.

Snake bite kits; I recommend the spark plug trick and then wait to see if it is a "loaded" bite and if so then shoot yourself.
If your out of ammo the extractor may help some. It's better than nothing but the current recommendation I think is keep it cold and get to a doctor so he can shoot you.

James; Hope you got the guy from the Left coast to cant his rifle a little to the right. I know you did your best! Did you tell him about Red Necks "being people" too.

Ok! So you guys don't want to post your kills! Gee Whiz. How about lets just count bullet holes! You don't even have to tell how you got em! I'll be your huckleberry! I've got 5. Come on lets make this a Real Combat Site! JEE's Forgive me already it's monday on the great plains!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 15:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Barrel crowns

The 11 deg crowns are great for the bench rest 6mm ppc guy. They are not necessary on a tactical rifle. The 11 deg crown can make it more difficult to clean when pulling a brush or a patch of sweets back though the barrel. The 45 deg crown is much better for general use. I dont like to use power tools when I recrown. I perfer to lap instead of cut or lap after I cut. I like to use the ball grinders for dremmel tools in a tap wench and slowly lap in a nice crown by hand. It takes me about 1/2 hour. Dont use the cheap dremmel tools bits from the hardware store. The gritt will break off and inbead in the barrel crown. I use bits that brownels sells. I like the balls because I dont have to keep them prefectly parallel to the bore. I have done a few old Grands this way and they turn out very nice. Grand crowns are usually pretty bad because the GIs used steel rods and you have to cleaned them from the muzzel. I just checked two pss crowns(because of commets on the roster), they sucked. I Never thought of checking crowns on new rifles before. I redid them both and they turned out nice. Thank you guys.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 15:49:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.145.85)

B.Rogers

When you say kills are you talking about a situation where you shoot at “something” and walk over to find a dead tango, shoot a guy in the back as he is running away from you or shoot someone of equal talent and motivation who is trying to kill you?
I don’t think people should get full credit for kills such as mothers holding assault babies.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
in the "Deadly" heat of Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

More on crowns...

The 3 old 40-XB's and XBBR's have lathe cut 45 degree crowns...
The new 40-XB's and 40-XBBR, and the M70/V's have dish crowns (like a shallow saucer) and at the bore, the angle is 89-90 degrees.
The M70/Sharpshooters have step crowns... straight across 1/3rd of the face, a small 45 degree step, and then straight across to the bore.

I don't think it matters much... all of these guns are benchrest, or very good match grade, and the crowns are very different.
As long as the crown is even, clean, and un-dented, it probably makes no difference.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:05:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.43)

Excellent Site Keep Up The Good Work.
Nick <norzechowski@yahoo.com>
Norwich, CT, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.60.43.41)

Pete C. Yup, ran into Blackwell numerous times. He shot the sniper matches as well as the service rifle this year. He is talking about coming up here for a course. He's a good guy. Got some heat last year for some actions of another shooter. He took it and never bitched openly.

On the Mildot Master. They also make a metric slide which allows all metric input and range determination.

Darryl. Yanking my chain are you? Oh behave... I am developing a device called the spin drift master. WHen it is done I will submit it to SC for free distribution.

Someone had a question about the statement I made re: which side to put the mounting nuts on the Mk4 bases. In the Mike Lau book I stated that I prefered to have the nuts on the right side of the M24 because I had seen students grrr the rear palma sight base when messing with the scope mount mounting nuts. (Some students can be real neanderthals with issue gear) If your rifle doesnt have a rear palma base as with the M24 it aint a problem.

By the way. My AT1 C-24 has the HS Precision detachable box mag on it. I normally single load but chose to use the magazine in a falling plate match and it worked like a charm. The magazine went in and out smoothly and had no feeding problems. The mag release is in inside of the trigger guard (where it should be) and I am led to believe that it fits on any Remington 700 stock (Is this right JR?). A big thumbs up to HS!

Out here.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
Elk Garden, West by Gawd, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:25:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)

Assault Babies; Naw ... don't count them. Unless mama have a 20 round clip or be a redneck muther. Ted Koppel skip this post just havin a little fun here! Al O. how many bullet holes you got from stealin them sheep man?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:26:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

PeteR
The best thing for a snake bite is not to panic. If you panic the heart speeds up and get the venom through the system faster. Stay calm and make sure that the bite stays LOWER than the heart. This will hopefully slow the venom down. The Extractor is the current fad. The reason they were invented is that the old cut 'n' suck method resulted in more deaths due to bleeding and infection than from the venom. They seem to work pretty well but thankfully I have yet to try one on an actual snake bite. The advantage is that if you get bit by a nonpoisonous snake and use the Extractor you will not injure yourself.

No matter what the situation, a hospital is very necessary, even with the extractor. If you get to the hospital and get the antnivenom you are still going to be at risk. The antivenom will genereally keep you from dying but the lasting effects can be devastating, paralysis and blindness are not uncommon.

Remember that a snake does not want to bite you so don't encnourage it. If you see one, freeze. Make sure the snake has an escape route, and it will use it.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:34:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.6.64)

'Ito, rechecked all my senderos, NO crown or its barely visible. Cayley, send me your crowning tools, will pay postage! LOL

Snake bite..........From 4th edition "Emergency Care in the Streets"
1. Get patient away from snake
2. Calm and reassure patient (damn that will never happen with you guys)
3. Remove all constricting items, rings, watches, shoes, etc. You're gonna swell up!
4. Keep victim recumbant, for those of you in Rio Linda that means lying down, with head and upper body slightly elevated.
5. Says to splint in a dependent position below the level of the heart. Mainly, keep the bite below the heart and don't let the patient move the extremity.
6. Do not let the patient move, walk or exert himself
7. Do not give anything by mouth, not even Crown Royal
8. Haul ass to the hospital. Try to describe the snake since you have hemo and neuro toxic critters. Call ahead to the hospital if you can with the info. so they can get the juice ready.

Incision and suction (close your ears Al.O.)as well as ice are no longer indorsed in most places. Infection from the incision and tissue damage from the ice have in some cases done more harm than just getting to the hospital.

REMEMBER some people are snake identity challenged. The snake that bites you may not be poisonous! He may just be giving you a love peck. Clean with hydrogen peroxide and add neosporin.

Dr. Bolt out

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 16:48:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

To JT: What rifle and scope did you settle on? Hope it all works out for you.

To Mike / the Un Dude: Glad to have met you. With the signal / noise ratio here on SC moving in an unfavorable direction, its good to meet a guy who can back up what he says. I look forward to trying out your sling on my Model 70.

The memory of the pre dawn trek to spot and engage small furry indigenous destroyers of the local environment will stay with me for a long time. Look forward to doing it again on your next visit.

Out

Bob
Bob Hodge <bhodge@Primenet.Com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 17:20:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.138.230.83)

Mista' Gooch...

When you develop your "Spin-dot master", take into account that in Mass, New York, Konnecticut, New Jersey, and Kalifornia, the bullets spin to the left...

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 17:36:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.43)

Caley,

On the 11 deg crown bit, most benchresters that I know don't find it a problem in cleaning, since they don't pull the patch or brush back thru the barrel to begin with. Just push thru, remove, cover, pull back, re-apply and go again. Takes quite some time, as you know, but for the 6mm PPC crowd, it's the only way to go.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 18:56:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.31.5.67)

Pat,

It arrived today............................

a most sinister Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Al O. - BE VERY AFRAID!, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 19:03:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.53)

I've looked on the sight for information on the cryogenics that is mentioned in the handloading section, but, not in the terminology section. Am I missing it, or is there nothing here on the subject?

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 19:08:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.140)

Gooch,
It was an honour to meet you and Rod last week. Rod is a real gentleman. I would classify you as the same but too many laws of the sea would be broken for a Sailor to refer to a Marine in that manner.

Guys acting as scorer for Rod and Gooch in Canada last week I had a chance to watch how they operate, very impressive. Discussions on hardware are great but it seems to me that more time on the site needs to be spent on procedures and communication between the spotter and
shooter. They showed myself and my brother(oh ya we were the pair with 360 degrees too much evolution)how to operate as a team effectively when things are going right, but more importantly how to react when things go wrong. Thanks for the free lesson guys, hope to see you in Ottawa next year.

Yours Aye,
Rick M
Rick Mountford <Rick_Mountford@bigfoot.com>
Ottawa, Ont, Canada - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 20:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.103.36.183)

PeteR - follow "Dr." Bolt's instructions for snake bite they are right on!
If anybody wants to know and I'M NOT TRYING TO START THIS OVER AGAIN - I got the instruction manual from Tasco today and as Chopper said the dots center to center on the SS10x42, SS16x42 and SS20x42 are 1.96 MILS!!! SO the NON M models, in other words everything EXCEPT the SS10x42M are NOT TRUE mil-dot scopes nor does Tasco say anywhere in the manual that they are mil-dot scopes!! If anybody REALLY wants all the specfications on the reticule e-mail me and I'll give them to you!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 20:25:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.224)

Mr. Hodge asked:
"To JT: What rifle and scope did you settle on? Hope it all works out for you."

Well after long deliberation and reading as much as I could on things. (Also asking guys like you tons of stupid questions and bugging the shit out of Mike) we decided on a new Winchester Model 70 Varmiter with a 26 inch stainless barrel. Of course it is a .308.

It was very tough choosing between the Winchester and the Remington, but as of late I have heard enough about the quality concerns with Rem that it made a difference in my choice. In addition Mike was with me when I bought it (thanks Mike) and he took a long look at the Winchester and he reccomended it as a good rifle as well.

In the end it was a coin flip type decision when I was standing there... both rifles were just about equal I guess... so it came down to the one that felt the best for me - and that was the Winchester hands down.

As for the scope I took nearly everyones reccomendation and bought a Leo. I am gonna hate myself for doing this once it comes time to do the ranging drills. Specifically I got a Vari-X III - 3.5 to 10 long range M1 Matte Multicoat 4 with 3/4 Mll dot. (uh yes I was using crib notes just now)

Mounts are dual doves by leo. Bipod by Harris... and of course one of Mike's rappelling harness / rifle slings.

When the Tactical Intervention website opens (hopefully by Saturday latest) You'll be able to see the rifle pictured in the section titled "Onlinr manual for the Model 2 rifle sling" as I used it for the close-up sling demonstration photos.

I have yet to fire it - but am concerned only about one thing. I have chambered a couple of rounds and upon ejection I noted that there are some 'rubbing marks' on the rear of the cartridge case over the headstamp. Hoping this isn't a problem.

Anyhow it's a beautiful rifle and the stock fits me 3 times better than the PSS did. It has the nice thick forestock but does not have the palm swell that my little hands rebelled against on the pss.

Thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

JT - Mike's Nightmare Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 21:10:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

online is NOT spelled onlinr - duh
sigh.

Oh and as for the combo harness/rapelling sling. Thats a JOKE. Do not even THINK about using the sling for anything but using as a rifle sling.
JT - TIS Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 21:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

To JT:
We had a fellow with a Shepherds scope in our LRTR class last week. Needless to say, after looking it over, you were well served staying away from it.

Out

Bob
Bob Hodge <bhodge@Primenet.Com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 21:50:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.138.230.83)

Yes I fixed my AOL and can return all the emails that were stuck for a few days.

Bob Hodge, I also enjoyed shooting with you. For those of you that dont know Bod is an AI for James Jarrett. Bob does not shoot his mouth off much but is a master with a rifle. But god Bob, the last time I mentioned Prarie Dogs on here I was attacked by men with purses. I do agree that is a lot of fun and I look forward to shooting with you again.

Mr. Jarrett, I am glad we could disagree and still be friends. You remind me of my brother we tend to disagree alot also. I dont know whats wrong with me maybe you are right it might be the water. As to me being sick. It helps in my profession. If you cant laugh at it why do it. Lots of folks take themselves far to serious. Not me I am just a cop that likes to shoot. My reading the wind, I am told by my other half, comes from spreading so much of it around. I had a great time, see you in the spring.

Slings, I have several orders here and one I forgot to ship to Al before I left. I am sorry Al, it wont happen again.

Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 22:47:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.46)

Hey!

If the snake can get away beofre it bites you, let it.

If it does bite you, you should kill it and bring it along to the doctor; it can help them in aiding you if they know the exact species/sub-species, age, size, etc.

L8R,

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 22:49:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.250.21)

You're right Leslie, forgot to kill the critter. Problem is most people will be to busy cleaning their britches out and the serpant will slither away. Hell, depending on who he bites, he may seek medical care. LOL
Seriously, it does beg the question, do you carry emergency comm equipment with you in the woods at all times? A chopper ride is most needed in this situation!

Rod, will STMC be sending out information packages on the how to's and why for's on the Match?

Having hard time figuring out the 1000 yard thing, can't wait to see what else I will be tortured with. (if I can get off work) The boss isn't taking kindly to me having off 8 out of 10 days and girlfriend didn't see the humor in cutting our vacation short. I told her that By Gawd is lovely in October. Jaw still hurting.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 02, 1999 at 23:03:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.83)

M3-LR mil-dots??

I got my M3-LR from Premier, and it has football dots... I understand that the factory M3-LR's with mil-dots, have round dots on glass... can anyone confirm this??

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 00:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.42)

Hello all,
Anyone have any info on the Springfield 4-14x56 Illuminated Government .308 - The 3rd Generation scope? Have not seen or heard anything on them in sometime. The Lumed green reticle looks interesting.
AXE97 <Sapper97@usit.net>
Corinado, Calif, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 01:42:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.147.122)

Varget,

Seem's I've been using it and didn't know,been using ADI AR2208 in .308 for a few years, I knew it was close to Varget,but now I have confirmed it thru ADI.ADI(Australia Defence Industries) makes powder for themselves and Hodgdon, Brian MacRae of ADI gave me the following:

ADI Hodgdon's

AR2208 = Varget
AR2209 = H4350
AR2213sc = H4831

AR2213 does not = H4831
AR2213 is 2-3% slower than H4831

If anyone want's more info e-mail them at (adi@cnl.com.au)

Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 02:01:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.198)

Since nobody has had a chance to get bored with my Tasco Super Duper Goofy Dot scope lately let me tell you what I've decided is a reasonable alternative.......
Forget the 2mil(1.96)spacing completely and use it like its 1mil but when doing your math/converting double your mil reading and viola`(thats waa-laa for you sheep farmers)you've now got a 1mil scope.

Necessity is the mother of invention,You fellers see any major faults in this program?
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 03:12:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.44)

Mike S. The target crown is the way to go. The recessed part of the barrel does actually protect the crown from damaging blows.

Mike Kroger: How dare you ask about a Ruuu =#$*%($##@)(* Ruugggggg *&^*^%$^&&**(( Ruuuuuuuuuuuuggggaar Fuck can t even spell it right. Bring me another Singapore Sling, baby!! And a 270 WInchester caliber too boot. Anyway, spin drift is when you put your clothes in the washer and when it gets to the spin cycle and they are off balance, the whole tub staarts to drift and shake. (Shit Gooch thats about as good an explanation as the other Voodoo stuff around here.)

Snake Bite Remedy for peteR. Remove snake from around peteR. Give the snake artificial resusitation and pump its little chest if there is no heaart beat. Roll peteR in a ditch and kiss his ass good bye. Get the snake to a vet as soon as possible. Macanudos are already packed for your edification!

BRogers: Dont have any bullet holes in me but that rock salt sure does hurt whe it penetrates your ass. Good thing I had my pants down, so no cloth got imbedded (scary thought - huh). But Darrell got it worse while he was mooning the sheep rancher. hehehe.

Pablito, you are still my hero!! It just seems when people are very knowledgeable around and express ones opinion, there is always someone who thinks they know more and then the belittling starts. Hell, you're not Sanctamonious, you're probably not even Catholic.

Scott: any other SC sshirts left. I need one in an extra large size. How about it, big guy. e-mail whether affirmative or negatory.

Ok Im outta here, but drinks are on the house. Tell the barkeep what you want! Im buyin!!

al o.

AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Preparin" Myself in the Grand and Wonderful State of , Ohio which is Unfortunately next to West Virginny, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 04:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.58)

Pablito,
My new LR M3 came from Leupold, via my distributor, with footballs. The reticle looks identical to the one that Premier installed for me in a Vari-X III 6.5x20. Seem to recall someone posting that the Gov't scopes come with round dots.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 04:35:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.216.204.40)

ok guys.
I'm considering either a VariXIII 4.5x-14x50mm (30mm tubes) and a VariXIII 6.5x-20x50mm (30mm tubes).
I don't think they offer the two in 40mm obj. if they do, wouldn't that be better as the 50mm is just a waste of glass since the tubes are only so big?
I'm not dead set on these two, and am open to suggestions.
I need a good setup that can handle a variety of uses(that is why i think i have decided on variable power). i will take it to the range of course, but I'm not interested in bench rest. it will mostly be used on varmints (yotes, p-dogs if i can get out to where they live) and anything that looks like it needs killin. (joke guys, if you are a reporter, just ignore me) Probably *hopefully* will never need to be used on two legged varmints (monkeys of course) but I'm slightly paranoid and would like something accurate before y2k.
What are your experiences with any/all of these magnification ranges???
Suggestions???
email me or post as you so desire.
thanks alot.
this place is like a big bank of experience...withdrawl please.
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
deciding magnification in the flat flat state of, IL, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 05:28:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.27)

I'm on my way to the Desert to practice @1000 yds. This will be the first time with a spotter. Question, will he be able to see the vortex of the bullet if directly behind the rifle using 20-60 prw. spotting scope? It will be low humidity and hot! I will be shooting 190 gr. 300 wm.
Jeff <farshot@trilobyte.net>
Stansbury, Ut, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 05:37:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.141.228.190)

Hello Al O,
I take it by your answer you either think everyone knows what spindrift is or its not well known at all. Washingmachines?
Hell I have a wife for that stuff, I prefer to spend my time shooting at the range.

Whos gooch? Did he invent spindrift?

mike <kroger@hotmail.com>
not only PeteR got snakebit, VA, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 07:49:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

I'm having a problem with copper fouling in my .308. After barrel break-in the rifle showed no signs of fouling a shot great. Now 1500 rounds later, the rifle shoots even better, but I'm having to clean every 5 rounds to get all of the fouling out. It never fouled like this during barrel break-in. I use a couple of wet patches of kroil oil followed by a few dry patches. Then I use a bore mop coated in JB's with 25 or 30 good passes then 5 or 6 dry patches. I then send a bore mop soaked in Barnes copper fouling cleaner (I like it better than sweets) wait a minute or 2 and my next dry patch is a beautiful shade of blue. I have to repeat the barnes process another two or three times before the blue is gone. (And yes I shoot moly bullets) Any thoughts or comments would be great.
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney , TX, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 10:29:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.42)

Jeff (bullet trace)

Try to get directly behind the shooter - preferably in line with their barrel. When they shoot, it will look like a little vapor wiggly worm going down range. After watching them for awhile, you can start asking the shooter to call their shots and see how good their call is. We did this alot with national match rapid fire when practicing. The coach is directly behind you with a good scope and calls each shot as you squeeze it off.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 11:14:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.38)

Al O...

You should be packin' all your stuff about now... I switched to LRR-III for reasons I'll explain when I see you at Carlos... say hello to Lucy at "Lucy's Sheep Dip Cafe'"... Let me know if all the vegetation is dead from the drought, I may want to bring down a brown ghillie suit for the creep.
...and, no, I'm not Catholic, though I've been know to say more than a few a few "Hail Marys" when I've seen flashing red lights in my rear-veiw mirror.

Doc...
When I spoke to the nice Leupold lady this past winter, she said that their factory M3-LRs had round dots on glass, and I think Scott said the same (but not sure), but I also hear that the factory scopes had footballs... I like them both, but I thought I'd get round one from the factory this time, but I guess not!!

Jeff...
If there is not much humidity, you may not be able to see the wigglie worm vapor trace, but you will be able to see the sonic shock wave... it gives the background a rippled look, like looking through water.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 12:03:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.110)

Yeah MIke; Gooch is the one that started all this spin drift business. He is one of our hi-tech shooters that won't shoot unless he has modern high tech gadgets. Carries a 500 mhz pocket computer to figure his mil dots. HE won't shoot unless planets are misaligned for fear of them pulling his rounds off target. I hear he never practices cause he is feared that gravity will cause the metal in his barrel to widen at the bottom and cause his bore to be oval shaped. Don't bother him about it though cause he is with his astrologer checking the position of the stars for his next upcoming y2k fear match.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 12:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Rick M. Had a great time in Ottawa shooting last week. It was great to meet you and the other shooters over their. Good luck on that ship and see you next summer in Canada. LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 12:45:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Jeff,
I don't shoot moly bullets so maybe I am off base here but it sounds as though you may be cleaning "To Much". I had a 308 built a few years back with a Schneider barrel and I had trouble getting it to break in. It would foul for about and inch down from the crown on one land and I would get constant flyers in the same spot. I was doing the same as you scrubbing it out with JBBs because I got tired of trying to get it out with Sweets. I finally called Mr Schneider and he told me to "QUIT" using JBs because all I was doing was prolonging the break in process by scrubbing everything back out of the barrel and making it squeaky clean ready to start the break in process all over again. I did as he advised and in short order the barrel settled in and the fouling went away. Being Irish and Bull headed I had to test his theory on one of my other rifles so I scrubbed it clean with copious amounts of JBs and then just went out and shot it for about 30 rounds and then came home and cleaned it in my normal way and found out that he was right. The gun had fouled heavly and it took twice as long to clean it as it had before. I cleaned it again and then started the break in process again and in a short time it was back to normal. So maybe your cleaning it to much,just food for thought.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 13:14:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Al O.,

I am deeply moved at your concern for the health and welfare of the local reptile population. Your concern for me is quite touching as well.
Tell you what, during the stalking event, I'll follow you beating on a pan with a spoon to keep the bears away OK? and maybe I'll sing "Kumbaya" as well!
Guess where I learned that one......

Mike -(kroger),

I hafta apologize for my buddy,

Al is a Ohier Fly Boy, just learned to load ammo pointy end first, and for years thought milk came out of the cow in cartons.
Depity Dave (Where are ya?) made a fitting post something about Al's "idea of long range being across the counter at 7-11." or something to that effect.

Although I have been know to chaste owners of a Ruuu, Ruuug, Ruuuugge.
They probably can do alright if the shooter does his part and knows his stuff. practice-pratice-practice

on spin drift, best thought is "Dont even go there" read the archieves and learn the painless way. TRUST ME!

chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 13:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.62)

AXE97,

Springfield 4-14x56 3rd Gen. Yeah, I got one. What can I say, it’s a big honking scope with a green bullet drop reticule. It works great. The scope is bright, clear, holds zero and the turrets work (all this is to be expected from a “sniper” scope). I don’t like the green color because when moving from a dark hollow to bright conifer surroundings the reticule tends to disappear. At night under orange tinted street lighting it the contrast of green and orange is really striking (pun intended). Springfield also has an excellent service department if there are any problems or you just think your scope might need a checkup. If you decide to get one have Springfield send you a spare allen wrench to adjust the turrets.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 13:40:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Chris
AR 2208 was being used here for a long time in bulk for ammo makers before it went out to the public. If you buy it in bulk you can get a really good deal I just bought 33 lbs for 9.50 a lb. Ever heard of SMP powder they use it in Subsonic 308 loads I don't know what it is yet it's put out by here by Hodgdon but not for the public.
Mike <Mikeroy@aol.com>
Mountains of, Montana, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 15:05:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.62)

Pat is zactly right about the JB Bore. That Copper Solvent will do the job by itself. I'm not saying there is no use for JB but it will cause your problems the way it's being applied. Overcleaning can be far more destructive that undercleaning to groups and barrels both.
Ya just don't need it. I don't want to just be redundant but it's nice to hear it twice sometimes.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 15:11:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

by the way I would shit can the Moly. Now that's just my own opinion and you'll hear lots of others. Stuff is unprecitable for sniper use. If it's targets all the time or maybe even the PD hunters will benefit from some extra barrel life but It ain't worth the hassle.
Snipers and Coyote hunters need the first round where it belongs and in all kinds of weather.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 15:16:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Pablito

My LR M1 has the foot ball shaped dots too. I thought I herd somewere that the glass etched retical uses the round dots. I think they only come on the MK4 scopes. I think all the wire reticals us the foot ball shaped dots.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 16:27:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.146.104)

Jr,
Will be going through Rapid tomorrow if I get there early enough I will stop in and shoot the breeze with you.

To the "Crew",
Headed for Wyoming in the morning, you guys play nice with one another and no fighting while I am gone(I hate to miss out on a good one) If any of you are going to the shoot be sure to look me up and say "HI"!! Looking forward to seeeing some of the guys from last year. Play nice!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 18:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Guys,
I a desperately looking for a WWII german high turrent scope with upper rings attached for a mint byf 43 mauser. I bought it from the widow of a vet that brought it back with scope, took it off to deer hunt in his local of west virginia, then died, and no one can find the scope. I bought it anyway and have looked 6 years for a scope. I'd sure love to know where one could be found for sale. I'd appreciate any help from out there in this search. It's a shame to have part of such a fine weapon and not be complete.
Larry W. Espey <larry.w.espey@usa.dupont.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 03, 1999 at 18:58:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.241.18.3)

Pablito

Just got back from the desert. Not enough humidity to see the bullet path, but was able to spot and call the shots. Your right on about the shock wave, real impressive. Should see what Berger VLD's 190 gr. do to 1/4" plate steel at 1000 yds. MV 3200 fps. Went right through the sch. 40 pipe legs and 1" by 1/2" dimples out the back of the plate.. I can just imagine what a quality hunting bullets would do! Thanks again for the info. Going back tomorrow to work on smaller groups. Shooting about 1 MOA with practice loads. (not my good brass and second choice of powder).
Jeff <farshot@trilobyte.net>
Stansbury, UT, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 00:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.141.228.183)

Bill Rogers - You behave now. I only have a 400 mhz laptop on the range with me.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 01:18:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

Mr Kroger, Sorry about the spin drift thingee. There has been soo much discussion about this "theory" and has caused more heartache then did Helen of Troy. But actually spin drift is a phenon when you are shooting long range and I mean real long range and compensating for the earth movement on its rotational axis. Yes I know it sound like bullshit, but I cant help believe it exists. After all we do the Bermuda Triangle, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny . . .

And I dont think Kent Gooch invented spin drift. He contributed his sagely advice to the topic, but I dont think he invented it.

And you ask who is Gooch. I have traveled far and wide and have visited Himilayan monks and asked their opinions about the meaning of life, questioning my relationship to the planets and about proper long range shooting. They have always deferred the answers to "The Man Above Them." The one who lives on the Mountain of Storm, directly next to the Gardens of the Elk. Mr Gooch has answered all of my questions and will answer yours also, provided the correct amount of reverence is shown. He is perhaps one of the best shots in the world, but you would never know it by his humility. He is also an accomplished writer and fashion designer, best know for his Article "Robin Egg Blue PUmps are in and Fuscia Ascots are out with the Ghillied Sniper" in a recent Tactical Shooter magazine. He was also the "testicle" advisor for the critically acclaimed documentary, "You Have to Have King Kong Balls to Make that Long Shot".

So when you visit Valhalla, ask ODin and Thor where Gooch the Great resides and as they humbly bow, they will tell you "On the Throne above us!"

peteR now on to you. I can deal with Mr Grizz better than with those buzzworms which we earlier discussed. One nice thingee about Alaska was that there were no snakes, wolverines, grizz and other things which can tear you a new ass and I prefer them over buzzworms anyday. I ve already packed my spoon and tin plate. See you Saturday night. Ive got a couple of cold ones on reserve for us.

MR Kroger, one other thing about washing machines. Im not sure if it is actually spin drift. Thats what my wife told me also. And I believe everything she says.

Take care of your backside.

al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Northern West Virginny, Ohier, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 01:19:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.115)

Pat & Bill

Many thanks for your input on me over cleaning my barrel. It makes perfect sense. I had never really heard of unbreaking in a barrel (except for not cleaning it) after it was properly broken in by over cleaning.

Now when I'm back at SMTC this Oct. I can shoot another hundred rounds a day and not worry about cleaning.

Many thanks guys
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 02:29:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.43)

To Al O.
Now that I have Bill R. straightened out, I guess its time to work on you. Spin drift has nothing at all to do with the rotation of the earth. That is a different phenomenon altogether. What you refered to is properly called the Coriolis effect.
The Coriolis effect is an interesting phenomenon first described by the
French mathematician Gaspard Coriolis in the early 19th century. An
object which moves in a straight line above the surface of the Earth
(and not parallel to the equator) will appear to curve because the Earth
is turning under it. This aspect of the Coriolis effect must be taken
into account in calculating the trajectory of a vehicle launched into
space. Similarly, something which is relatively stationary near the
surface of the Earth (such as an atmospheric mass or weather system)
will tend to turn because the equator is moving faster, as the Earth
rotates on its axis, than places to the north or south of the equator.
This aspect of the Coriolis effect is the reason that tropical storms or
cyclones rotate counterclockwise in the Northern hemisphere (called
hurricanes) and clockwise in the Southern hemisphere (called typhoons).
It is also why it is said that water in toilet bowls, bathtubs, and
sinks tends to rotate counterclockwise in the Northern hemisphere as it
drains, and clockwise in the Southern hemisphere--although this is not
the case because the Coriolis force is very slight, and other rotational
forces easily overcome it and cause the water to swirl in either
direction.
For a full explanation of spin drift (Magnus effect) in the glossary section on the main page of this site offers a good explanation.

To all, I just came from Camp Perry and at the Sprinfield Armory store on Commercial row, they had dozens of reconditioned Springfield scopes, (The big honking variables) for sale for $200 each. They also had quite a few new looking 6x Springfield tactical scopes for $225.

Another store was giving away free samples of the new Hornady 30 cal. 155 gr. Amax B.C. .435 and the 168 Amax B.C. .475
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:01:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Ok Mike I lied it's only 400 mhz but it's got a 15 gig hard drive to record all the data he takes down on every shot. Al's right though just ask him if you want the truth.
Coriolis huh! I never knew that! There ain't nothing you can't learn here if you stay long enough!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:23:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Steve, Thank you for that great explanation. Istand corrected and am not afreered to admit that I was wrong. Its a good thing we have each other to make sure the bullshit doesnt flow too far. Thanks again Steve.

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Eating Humble Pie in the state where Steve also resides , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:25:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.176)

TO Mike M / the Undude: I wouldn't worry about being attacked by men with purses. Anyone who has seen the damage prairie dogs do to a field should have no problem with a few of us reducing the excess population. Perhaps the folks who took exception to your comments belong on WWW.PETA.Com where they can find others of like mind set.

Out

Bob
Bob Hodge <bhodge@primenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:28:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.132.51.46)

Al/Steve
To think I thought a good zero and kentucky windage was enough... Magnus huh? geez

So does the Gooch put his trousers on one leg at a time like us?
(Most reverently asked with nose scraping earth)

On the Ruger .270Win is there any advantage to trading down to a Remington M700? Someone on a post above pointed out that the military buys on the cheap, I was wondering if that meant that as a one-off civilian buyer should stay with quality, as I have read a lot of negative things here about Remington standards.

great site.
mike <Kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 03:58:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Attention fellow patriots, especialy those in the republic of kalifornia, the state senate has passed sb23, which outlaws all semi autos and clips over 10 rounds, it also calls for the registration of all such guns that are already in the state.
Owners of sks rifles with detachable magazines must turn in their rifles to the local police station, and will be given a voucher for, I believe about 230 or 240 dollars.
It doesnt matter if the rifle was bought legaly at your local gun store, or that you registered it to be in compliance, it must be surrendered, or taken out of the state by january 1,2000.
This new law is going to make many people felons overnight, if you dont surrender your sks, you are a felon, if you dont register your semi autos, you become a felon.
One thing that is very curious is the timing of the sks buyback, it came at the same time as the registration requirement for the so called assault rifles.
This seems almost planned, to discourage registration.
The message says even if you registered your sks, you must turn it in, by the way, register your other semi autos, we dont want to confiscate them, honestly we dont.
This law makes California the toughest gun controll state, and the sks buyback may be the first gun confiscation program.
The sks buyback is an experiment, we all know that the sks is not in the same catagory as an AR15, HK or even an AK47, it is just that they need to start somewhere and they can buy them at a good price and get the blueprint for further gun confiscation.
If you live in California or know someone who is unfortunate enough to live here, visit www.vetothegovernor.org,
there is a petition effort to repeal the new law, but we need signitures, if we gather 419,000 before October 18th, then the law will be repealed.
This is the time for action, as we are being mauled like never before, the anti gunners want it all and they are bold enough that they dont have to deny it any longer.
Saturday night specials are a public menace.
Semi auto rifles are evil.
Handguns are more dangerous to the owners than to the crimminals.
Sniper rifles have no sporting purposes.
50 calibres are terrorists dreams come true.
If we dont take a stand we will be soon defending our constitutional right to keep and bear slingshots.
Even if you dont live in California, we still need your moral support, there are links to the senators who designed this law on the web site, so you can give them your input.
Remember our local senator Diane Feinstien, will be watching how this turns out, if it works here she will be more than willing to help the rest of the country consruct a crime prevention program based on her pet project.
John K. <bota1b@aol.com>
Lake Forest, CA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 04:32:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.166)

About Remington quality control:
There has been a lot of commentary on Remingtons lack of quality control in their products so I thought I would share my positive experience. I shoot a Remington 700 VS in 308 that was bought in 1995. Out of the box the trigger measured at 3 1/2 lbs. and has since been lowered to 2 1/4 lbs. by Mike Lau. Before the trigger job the rifle consistently shot about .9 MOA with 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips that were loaded commercially and .7 MOA with 168 gr. MK from the same manufacturer. Federal GM is usually around .5 MOA. The size of these groups is probably due to my lack of skill. I think the rifle is capable of about .3-.4 MOA with the Federal load. I read all the problems that others have had such as crooked barrel and the stock contacting the barrel or bolt handle and no such problems exist with my rifle.

I have been very happy with my rifle and I think that my experiences are not atypical. Remington is capable of making a quality product but I am sure that all manufacturers have some defects that slip through the cracks.

About spin drift:
The results of spin drift have been discussed to death lately. Is spin drift similar to baseball where a fastball rises slightly due to the rotation of the ball?

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 04:34:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.7.148)

Al O,
I think I've got a handle on magnus effect/spindrift.
Magnus effect is a perpendicular force relative to a rotating body travelling through a medium. ie golf balls are dimpled because the dimples create more lift that drag (http://desy.de/user/projects/physics/golf.html).

So this means a long range shooter should adjust for elevation over distance because of this extra lifting effect,ie vertical drift right?

mike <kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 04:43:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

OK, so I've been away for a spell, with any luck I'll be back now.

I read a question and some answers about shooting streight up and the resulting volicity of the projectile. I go with the answers that said the bullet is just falling after all the energy given to it by the rapid expansion of gas is gone. What I have problems with is the notion that a bullet fired at an angle other than 180 degeres to gravity will maintain some magical terminal valocity forever. I'm no physisist (may not even be able to spell it) but from my understanding, a bullet travels in a parabolic arc (as it slows down gravity has more and more effect on it up to the point that it is finelly traveling streight down, this all assumes that it dosn't hit something like the ground first). I haven't checked the balistic charts on this, but, I can not imagine how a .50 could maintain enough energy at 7500 yds. to do anything but make a big thuding noise as it falls to the ground. By that time even if fired at 45 degrees it would be falling almost streight down. To get an idea of what this is like, wad up a sheet of paper, go outside and try to throw it as far as you can. As the energy that you have put into the paper wad with your arm disipates it slows and then falls streight down. This is exactly what will happen with any non self propelled projectile that does not leave the gravitional pull of our planet. This also helps to explain why we don't use .223's for everything.

I must need some rest.

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Glad to see the nasty hot days go away for at least a little while in, Sunburned West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 05:14:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.143)

Mike / Kroger:

Does this mean we all now need to put dimples on our bullets?

Makes a man wonder!

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Enquiring mindes want to know all over, Beautiful, west Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 05:26:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.143)

Deputy Dave,
Dimpled projectiles? After you stop laughing reason why not? I am not trained in the relevant field to comment, but if theory exists to support a phenomenon it would be great to test it out. I mean what would happen???

Lets face it, if someone didnt complain about the bumps versus great braking ability, we would still have the square wheel.

No-one out there shoot Rugers in .270Win?
mike <Kroger@hotmail.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 06:19:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Been a little while since I've been here. I saw the master sniper post a while back, can someone tell me the date(s) of this puma thing, so I can try to hunt that up?

Most importantly, we need to work together to save ourselves from another spindrift discussion. Some posts are getting too close to reopening THAT Pandora's box, even as a joke. There's some good humor in the snake posts, though.

Semper Fi
Mark J <markj12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 06:19:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.79)

Depity-
Actually, it would help... On round bullets. I don't recall wich manufacturer it was, but a while back one of tehm experimented with dimples on round slugs for 12 gauge round slugs. Never caught on, and problem is, even with jacketed balls, you get some deformation, taking it out of round. At that point your round slug goes way off as flight patterns go. If I recall correctly, they fleww something like a spiral flight path. Not to good for accuracy. Modern boat tail bullets may not be the ultimate evolution of accuracy designs for bullets, but it is probably the best we will see for awhile. Barringg that some genius somewhere doesn't stumble accrost something.

On another note, of the aftermarket tactical stocks that work well for sniping, who makes em for the savages? Friend of mine has one in .308, and one in .300 winmag. He really wants to put something a bit better on it, but he has issues with finding info.

Also, anyone who is anywhere close (2-3 hours max) from the Frederick county Maryland area who wouldn't mind getting together with someone who is new to long range shooting to help/shoot/throw back a few in september or october, drop me a line.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Finally cooler in, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 06:22:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Question Of The Day:
How do you keep a group of web-bound-snipers in suspense about something kinda cool that is supposed to happen Thursday at Noon?

Answer:
You can't! Sniper's don't get impatient!

I'll be back tomorrow at about noon Pacific Time with something special to announce. And I know none of you feel any suspense or even curriosity at all right? Cool, calculated, and patient.

Until tomorrow!

JT - Tactical Intervention Specialists Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 08:14:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Someone mentioned that the "falling bullets" scenario was not important because it had no Sniper usage....

I beg to differ.

OK. You are on one side of the military crest of a hill. Bad Guy is on the other. You are separated by about 50 yards. There is no way you can get over the crest without exposing yourself to hostile eyes.

What's a boy to do?????????

:-)

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 08:42:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.42)

5o yards on the other side. Too many eyes. Crawl 5 miles around the base of the hill and shoot em in the back. :)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Holysheeetit'sactuallycool, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 09:01:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Bob H. and Mike M:

Where is the post about shooting PDs. I'll weigh in on this one, especially since it is my patures they are destroying. You guys know my stand on hunting. I don't. Had all the killing I need a long time ago, but I support hunting and especially rodent control (two legged or four).

De Oppresso Liber

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
God's Country, NM, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 11:38:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.34.224)

Subsonic loads,

If interested in suppressors or subsonicloads for rifles,go to the site below,if you want loads or an answer to a related question,once in go to links and the GOW(gunwriters on the web).The Finn's have a wealth of experience in reduced loads,and suppressor design and knowedge,and explanation's are very thorough.

(//personal.inet.fi/business/reflex.suppressors/contact.html)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 11:45:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.227)

John K:

I sympatize with all of you from CA., but you should try living in NJ.
When King Florio was elected the NJ assult rifle band was past and there was no buyback or grace periods, you became a felon over night. Five years and a $7500 fine. Had to move my six hit list items to PA or face 30 years in jail. It's a nice world we live in.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 12:51:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Mr. Bob Hodge,

Are you and Mr. Jarrett coming to the Carlos match at Storm Mountain in October? I would be interested in meeting you in person. Probably be a lower "signal to noise" ratio there right? And no purse carrying men!

Depity,

WELCOME BACK!

Hillbilly Ballistics 101:

Don't dimples have something to do with the spherical shape of a golf ball and sub-sonic velocities. Totally different form shape and factor. The closest I've seen to dimples is "impact plating" of moly via steel shot.
Smooth is good! look at missles, fast planes, fast cars, and FAST women!

Chao for now!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 13:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.208)

Bruce

The question you posed was if you are on one military crest of the hill and an enemy force is on the other with a 50yd separation. This with the understanding they have not detected you. I suggest hauling ass down the hill across the valley up the next hill and over its peek to the military crest on the far side and then call in artillery. This is from a sniper spotter perspective. Snipers should never actively engage infantry troops. Several grenades and 2 M-4 rifles are no match for a enemy platoon. I probably would not engage even at squad level. I don’t like the idea of trying to rain down ammo on troops. It is not deadly and will give away my position.

As far as shooting PDs and Ground hogs is concerned I have never seen one and don’t know any thing about them except for some PETA film footage. When you shoot them, do they really do back flips and explode into red clouds of blood and viscera? Looks cool, some day I will have to go on a PD safari.

Gooch have you written a book or do you plan to?

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 14:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

These gun "buybacks" are a misguided approach and all, but a SKS for $250? Geez, wait 'til I tell my neighbors how valuable their guns have become on the west coast! Out here, they will give 'em to you at yard sales...so long as you buy a salt shaker, or something similarly priced...and are over 7 years old [legal age to operate a motorcycle on paved roads].

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 14:47:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

John K,
With the passing of sb23 in Kalifornia being clearly (in my opinion)against the U.S. Constitution wouldn't this act dis-allow any Federal Grant monies to said state? I know,fat chance but it's a thought.

Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
New Carrisa Bay, OR, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 15:43:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.107)

Michael...
If you haven't whacked PD's yet, you are missing the second best fun of your life. If you get them in the afternoon, when their bellys are full of half digested green gook... yup, they do explode with a 22-250 and good bullets. And you can sneak up on them in your Ghillie suit (air conditioned!!) for stalking practice.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 16:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Quickbow,

Don't know about any others, but McMillan will do most any of their stocks for Savages, even the new 10 series. Verified that last by phone with them when the 10's were first announced. I was told that they were expecting the specs for the new actions any day and were ready to set up their equipment for the new double pillared actions. This was some time ago, and I haven't verified since. Some things came up and my .308 purchase has been put on hold for a while. Last I heard, H&S didn't do any Savage at all.

Extracting any way I can.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, Kalifornicating us, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 16:48:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.30.140.5)

OHboy!! what a nice joke on the California Tax Payers. Wonder if they know they're paying $250 a gun to get rid of the only politically correct "assault rifle" in California.
Did you read where the cops shot Croc Dundee over in Australia yesterday.
"They don't have a clue why he opened up on them!" Guess he went nuts trying to figure out their gun laws!
Tony; yesterday New Jersey, Today California Tomorrow the new world order. But let's don't talk about it, or do anything about it and maybe it will just go away! I got it right off a Radio Talk Show today.. "They won't ever come and get all our guns, there's just too many of em!" "They just don't have the man power!" uhhuh!
Daryl; your mission if you should decide to accept it is to investigate the death of the Croc Man!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 20:01:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Whissle Pig hunters beware. Heard a rumor that PETA is in kahoots with the Kalifornia gun commies. They are secretly buying back them thar asssault rifles and are going do give them to the Whissle Pigs to shoot back at you guys. Heads up, or down!

Dimples on bullets would be cute kinda like them dimples on good lookin rear end.

Rod, need the poop sheets on the Match. PeteR scared hell out of me last night with all the stuff i've got to get ready for.

Can you be a sniper if you have allergies? Ragweed now having sex. Pollen everywhere making life miserable. :(

Me thinks some of you are fraidy of serpants. Better check all your gear at the match. I think I have found my edge! HEHEHE
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 21:11:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.51)

Looking for a load for the 155 match king in a 308 with varget.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 22:05:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.146.189)

Boltster,

You, Scared? doubt it man........... Those "Super sized" forearms from all that scope ring lapping would probably allow you to choke a Brahama ooops Brahma Bull.

Bill Rogers,

Do you mean Paul Hogan???? The Suburu Outback dude?!

Darryl-Down Under-Dude,
do fill us in man, this is too surreal.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 22:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.82)

Bill / PeteR,
The Northern Territorian that inspired the Crocadile Dundee series was Rodney Ansell, 44yrs described as a cattle rustler,bull catcher, fisherman, station owner (thats a giant cattle farm)and bushman. He wrote a book on his survival in the outback in 1977 after a giant croc attacked his boat on the Fitzmaurice river.

He was made Territorian of the year in 1988.

He shot dead a cop at a roadblock. No motive is known. However his station was sold due to the fact that the government slaughtered wild buffalo to prevent bovine diseases, this apparently killed off a large industry.

His arms were politically correct 12g and lever action.

A damn pity all round.
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Wednesday, August 04, 1999 at 23:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

*** Help*** I'm looking for a opinion AR-15 lowers that are avalible today. There are about a half a dozen quality manufactures out there but which one is the way to go if building from the bottom up? Colt, Bushmaster, DPMS, Hesse, Olympic, Armalite, ect.... Stay with aluminum, go stainless, try the new titanium from Olympic, or what? I'm sure they are all good but is there any one manufacturer that stands out from the rest when it comes to quality? Please if you offer your opinion e-mail me because I don't get a chance to visit the Roster very often. Thanks.....
Todd <duckman@eznet.net>
Andover, NY, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 00:18:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.105.140.36)

On this buy-back thing in Kalifornia, I have to weigh in.

Doesn't every law enforcement official take an oath to uphold and defend the Consitution of the U.S.? A friend of mine is working on entry into the CHP, and tells me he will, again (Navy Vet.). Assuming that it's true, won't these people be violating that oath when they predictably begin investigating and arresting those who refuse to comply? What with the ammendments and all...

It makes for an interesting debate, I think.

As for the rest of us, what will you do when your turn comes to give up your weapon? When do we draw the line? Bit by bit, piece by piece, we'll watch our means to resist tyranny as it is erased forever. Or will we? It's kinda like Y2K...Better be prepared, just in case it really happens.

Not related to snipers? Think about it...

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Bill Of Rights Is Still King, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 00:37:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.23)

Michael;
I have also nailed groundhogs and made them do back flips just like Pablito said, except I do it with a .270, and they tend to flip upward and land kind of kicking from the nerves I think. The guts fly all over and its pretty fun.Sneaking up on them is almost as good. The closest I've ever gotten is about 25 yards, because I would not like to be attacked by a rabid one if it found out what I was.
TonyD
Groundhog Country, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:22:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.186.184.134)

I knew my agent Daryl would fill us in there. I guess the answer would be easier for someone like me than some others. I won't dwell on it but I think I know the why.
Repeat after me! There is no conspiracy. There is no conspiracy.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9908/04/un.small.arms/
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:31:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Those who forget history...
'The Government' came for the guns in this country before. To the horror of some of their neighbors, some resisted - in the only effective way left to them.
Riflemen (literally, the guys with the rifles) may not have gotten off as many rounds that day as their musket toting comrades, but they MADE the difference.
That difference today is that Americans are citizens - Brits are subjects. Please note which group still has their guns today...
Hey Roger - A rifleman - the sniper of his day - probably fired the 'shot heard 'round the world'.

whups - getting way too serious here - where are the sheep again?
Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Greetings all

Check out the Canadain Infantry School page, there's some good articles in the Journal about Snipers and Sniping from our military viewpoint. BTW, we actually have a qualification up here called "Master Sniper" (QL6, I believe), in US terms it means Sniper Instructor. Is this Puma guy one? http://www.brunnet.net/infsch/journal/32/32_toc-a.htm

Tony <tmacke@ibm.net>
BC, Canada - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:40:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.37.148.188)

Just a word of warning for aspiring PD hunters in Ghilly suits. Be sure you don't get any fleas in the thing. The PDs don't do rabbies all that much but the Bubonic Plague is a real threat and it is carried by the fleas. We had some folk come out here from Iowa last year and kill 100 PDs. They threw them in the back of the Suburban to show off the kill. Took them up to the Farmers barn and threw them inside. He was so impressed he invited them to stay away forever.
Be sure and check yourself for the fleas. The fleas will desert the Ghilly in a few hours if there's nothing in it to bite.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:47:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

To PeteR:

Mr. Jarrett and I probably won't make it to the Hatchcock shoot. Unfortunately, West Virginia is a good distance away from us SouthWesterner's. Maybe in the future.
Out

Bob
Bob H <bhodge@Primenet.Com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.132.50.174)

No; Gooch and Rod are the Sniper instructors but I wouldn't call them Master Snipers fis you!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 01:51:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Golf Balls:

They's got dimples 'cause they's aunties kept on a pinchin' they's cheeks. (PeteR - how do you write like that? I can say it, but the spellin' jus dont com natur'l.)

Golf balls are subsonic at around 200 mph. Unlike bullets, they don't spin around the axis of flight, insted they tumble. With the air resistance on the ball, the dimples reduce drag and allow it to travel farther. The pattern, spacing, and dimensions of the dimples were changed until the present type has the best compromise of low drag and controllability. They can make 'em travel farther, but if you don't hit 'em just right.... BTW - the pattern is best for one air viscosity. Change the temperature and pressure and the ideal pattern changes too.

Does a golf ball and club come under the heading of sniper weapons? A coupel of years ago, I hit a golf ball about 3" in front of the nose of a decent deer from the 6th tee at ~125 yds. Since it was in the fall, 6" left would've made venison for dinner. Of course, it might be I misranged the thing with the TTTAAAASSSCCCOO SS10X42 on the club.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:18:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.22.133)

hoyohoyo
jjh <rainyhart@yahoo.co.kr>
pusan, jin-gu, Korea - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:18:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 210.97.161.240)

Any South African servicemen lurking?

I have some questions if you care to contact me off site.

cheers all

Now America is going down the Australian route, I'll look for a paintball site.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:22:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/74791.html

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 03:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

If trouble accessing GOW for subsonic info,

Try going thru (www.riistamaa.fi) or (fi.soneraplaza.net) then "reflex".

AWOL for 14 days.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 04:29:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.232)

Anybody have a Marine Corps bug jacket or know where I can get one? I've posted this everywhere and nobody seems to have one or any info on getting one.
TonyD
We got 4 mountain lions now., NJ, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 05:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.186.184.49)

Tony:

You asked where to get a bug jacket.

There is a surplus store in Cambell California called "The Mountain View Surplus". 2 weeks ago I was in there looking for a hat to keep my head from getting fried. (All I could find suitable was a jungle hat which is gonna raise eyebrows at the range - but that is another story)... Anyhow I saw the very thing you ask about. I dont know if they were USMC but they were military bug jackets. looked a lot like Olive Drab gauze.

Anyway call information for Campbell California 408-555-1212 and ask for 'The Mountain View Surplus' off of Winchester Aveunue. It's near the Pruneyard so it could be borderline San Jose.

JT - Tactical Intervention Specialist Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 09:13:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Maybe that you got some better information off line but on AR lowers you have them listed in about the right order from top to bottom.
There are many lowers and uppers for that matter but those are the main ones I belive. IT always seemed to me that Colt and Bush were a bit the best. Some will argue for DPMS and they are OK too I just don't believe in those big heavy barrels on a weapon like that.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 11:28:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Karl, the Dude in Damn Cold Duluth(just kidding!)

Thanks for the lesson in golf ball ballistics. I had an attempt made to recruit me to golfing a decade ago, but declined cuz I wern't allowed to shoot the golf balls at them thar holes in the ground.

Hillbilly ballistics and prose is a very advanced skill here in West By-Gawd Virginia. Some of the requirements are graduating 6th grade, retention of 2nd growth teeth, necklace of your baby teeth (as proof), chart of geneology going back at least two decades and kinfolk in Hazard, Kentucky!

Mr. Hodge,

Sorry you and Mr. Jarrett won't be able to attend the swa-ray at S/M. It will be fun!

JT,

Its almost 08:15 here in hillbilly land, wheres that thar super-secret Aa-gent posting? The wait is soo painfully excrutiating, will it last?

Tony,

Thanks for the heads up on Canadian Master Snipers, but they earn their badges respectfully don't they.
Guess we'll have to differentiate in the future so as to not smear the folks that earned the title.
hmmmm
"Un-Master Sniper", nah that'll piss off the Un-dude.....

oh well back to the crayons!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 12:09:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.23)

RE: Tactical Applications of Falling Bullets

I was joking! Sorry if the cynicism was lost in the translation to the keyboard....

Later,

Bruce
Bruce Braxton <braxton1@aol.com>
College Park P.D., GA, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 13:06:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.199)

GPS INFO

some may find this of interest:

GPS End-of-Week Rollover Issue

In addition to evaluating its products for compliance with the Y2K, Magellan is also evaluating its products for compliance with the EOW event, which is similar to the date rollover at the end of the century, but unique to Global Positioning System technology.

GPS time is based on a "GPS week number" ranging from "0" to "1023". Week 1023 will end at midnight (UTC time) on August 21, 1999, at which time the week number will "roll over" or re-set to week 0 beginning on August 22, 1999. If a receiver has not been prepared to handle this week rollover event, the receiver may calculate inaccurate position fixes, generate erroneous dates or have difficulty acquiring satellite signals.

"Ende"

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 17:30:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.13)

More on MK4 mildots...

Today I saw a MK4-M1, 10x with round dots on glass... so they DO exist... unfortunatly, this one had those saw-tooth ring marks on it, so no sale...

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 18:39:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.78)

Greetings Folks!

Well today is 'Undude-Mike's big day! We have finally finished his website and he has gotten all of the business issues (like a phone and a biz address) resolved and it is time to go LIVE!

It has been a very busy month, and Mike has worked really hard to get everything in order. I am pretty darn happy with the site. We decided to make it easy to load at the expense of glitz and heavy duty download graphics... This should be good for most of you as I don't see this group as fitting into the 'Pentium 12 power-nerd' category. :-)

Anyhow the

Tactical Intervention Specialists Website is ready for your inspection! It consists of about 120 separate html pages and over 210 graphics and photographs. Mike and I are both very eager to hear your feedback on it. Good or Bad.

For those who have waited until you could see a photograph before purchasing one of Mike's Quick-Cuff Rifle Slings - wait no longer! I have posted detailed photos of all three Quick Cuff models - not to mention a bunch more photos in the 'online owners manual'.

Speaking of pictures, it's rumored that there is a picture of the Undude himself on the pages. :-)

In any event Please drop by http://www.tacticalintervention.com/ and have a look around. Let us know what you think and how the site can be improved... Oh and consider grabbing one of Mike's slings! He needs the money to pay my exorbitant salary somehow!

Finally, if any of you guys have a website, We would really love a link. I have posted graphics you can use for linking. I'd be very pleased to link your sites as well. Just mail me and ask.

Enjoy the site everyone...

Congratulations Mike! You are on the air!

JT - Webmaster - Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Oakland, California, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 19:13:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

To all the “mad gunmen”

Is it just me or do any of you feel that shooting your coworkers is unsportsmanlike. There is no real challenge in it. Most of the time they are not armed. They walk around the workplace in condition white and when someone starts shooting they freeze or run away. Few if any attack or become violent. Mostly they just whimper in the corner.

So all you “mad gunman” wannabes, if you really want to test your skill and prove your selves to be real men (or what ever you think you are) come on down to your local Police department, SWAT division and ask to speak to a man dressed in black holding an MP-5.

We will check you out in style.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 19:24:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Way back opn the 31st there was a discussion on the best place to incapacitate a human via head shot....I finally have something to add!

I have seen many,many head shots with pistol rounds, shotguns and light caliber rifles. They do some strange stuff, but when they hit the sinus and max-facial area, they seem to make a mess but leave the victim functioning...I had a case several years back where a high school girl was marking javelins for the track team...she must have been thinkin' about her upcoming redevouis for that night when she wandered down range at the wrong time...she mus have heard the warning just in time to look up and WHACK, right in the side of the head, just forward and in line with the ear canal...flew her via medivac and three days later she was released..even though the javelin was better than halfway through her skull when it stopped...

bottom line, if you really gotta have that bad guy hold still after the bang, aim behind the ear on the side shots. The brain kinda comes up the back of your head and then travels up and over the ear canal...the closer to where the spine joins the brain the better.
medicjim <james_mitchell@merck.com>
warren, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 19:43:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Pablito, Leupold scopes. The original Ultras and current production MK4's from the factory have round etched glass reticles. Most of the MK4's had football/wire reticles and the same is with all VariX3 models and after market/Premeir Reticles. I hope that straightens out things for you.

To all that emailed thanks for the nice comments about the website. The great job goes to JT/Charles.

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 05, 1999 at 23:53:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.72)

Bruce Braxton asked about shooting over the crest of a hill, which is a type of indirect fire. Such a thing is indeed possible, but must be done over relatively low angle hills, due to the flat trajectory of small arms, and at relatively long range. The 50 meter distance mentioned is probably next to impossible. I was in a rifle platoon of E/2/3 Marines in the late 80's and our machine gun section got pretty good at indirect fire. Note that was tripod mounted M-60 bullet hoses firing a lot of ammo. I later served in STA 3/25 and can not imagine ever trying that with an M40A1 or with anything but a mounted weapon under ideal circumstances. So, it is definitely possible.

I thought about posting this a while back during a 2nd amendment discussion, but didn't. That topic is back, so what the heck. I am a cop in Columbus, Ohio, and have been since 96. In 89, city council passed a law, city code 2323.31, Unlawful Possession of Assault Weapons, which states, in pertinent part, (some legalese BS removed)
(A)No person shall sell, ... or possess any assault weapon.
(B)This section does not apply:
(1)To law enforecement officers and members of the armed forces of the US, if they are authorized to possess assault weapons (AW) and are acting in the scope of their duties.
(2) the transportation of AW through Columbus in accordance with federal law.
(3) to any person who lawfully possessed an AW and who registered that AW pursuant to former city code 2325.05 in 1989
(C)...a misdemeanor of the first degree (up to 6 months in jail and/or $1000 fine). second offense- mandatory 30 days, third or more offenses- mandatory 90 days

section 2323.11G defines an assault weapon as
(1)any semi-automatic action, centerfire rifle or carbine that accepts a detachable magazine with a capacity of 20 rounds or more;
(2)any semi-auto shotgun with mag capacity of more than 6 rounds
(3)any semi-auto handgun that is:
(a)a modification of a rifle described in (1)
(b)originally designed to accept a detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 20 rounds.

anything permanently modified so that is inoperable is legal (master sniper's guns are allowed, apparently)

.22 caliber is okay.

You may be wondering, did I confiscate any weapons? Did I arrest people for this? Yes, I did, a few times. All I can recall taking are some Tec-9's and we got an AK once. It is interesting to note that every weapon I took was used to commit another crime, such as a shooting or a robbery, or was in the possession of a convicted felon, who could not have a firearm. It seems the law abiding people weren't doing things that would attract the attention of Columbus Police officers.

The good news? That law was repealed, at the federal level, in late 98 or early 99, as being unconstitutional, and there are no plans to introduce a new version. So there is hope for law abiding gun owners.

Thinking about getting an AR-15,
Semper Fi.
Mark J <markj12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Oh, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 01:56:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.203)

Leslie Bright (lnbright) was nice enough to e-mail me off line about 'Premier Reticles' site being back up. We both checked and we read that they do NOT do 'doubling' of Leupold 6.5x-20 scopes. I have e-mailed them for assurance and/or clearification.

Does any one have any other suggestions?

Any info apprecitated.

Larry
Larry <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 02:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.254.144.218)

JT;
Thanks, I'll give them a ring. I dont care if its not USMC, I just thought they were the only ones who made them.
TonyD
USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 02:38:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.186.184.167)

I was the one who started the tasco mil-dot war a few weeks ago after I posted a question concerning the SS10X42 mil dot spec's. I should have done a direct email with my questions to puma :) I just wanted to thank every one that responded. Even though some of the responses were considered inappropriate by some readers, I still learned alot from them. Thanks again

Brian
Brian <heiterman@qnet.com>
Bishop, CA, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 03:38:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.221.218.193)

John K -Bota;
The petition, if successful, will put the bill on the referendum for March 2000. Then the people vote on it. It's not over if we get the requisite # of signatures. It's only just begun...

Luck to us all.

Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced , Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 03:48:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.206)

I e-mailed SWFA day before yesterday about the mil-dot issue per the ss10x42 Tasco scopes. The reply stated that Tasco 'fessed-up to making a mistake on their spec sheets. The mil-dots are for real.
They also said that they are shipping out at least 100 a day. So if you have been waiting on one from them like I have, it should be any day. They also have the best prices on Flip-ups of anybody.

I asked a coupla days ago if anybody had any experience with the 3X9 Leupold Tactical with MilDots that Premier Reticles builds?

Spud
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 04:26:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.206)

PSS from last week...
Thanks to those who e-mailed me on the PSS and accessories prices. I think I'll stick go with a VS and get a better AM stock.

New question, break-in....
What does barrel break-in (using the procedures found here at SC) actually do to the barrel? Does it fill the pores of the metal on the lands to make them smoother or just work down any imperfections that may have been left by the manufacturer?

The BIG BLUE PUMA need not reply.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
Alabama, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 09:23:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.156)

Roger E. Lays:

Well, I signed up two more guys in the NRA this week on 1 year memberships which I paid for. Maybe they won't renew, maybe they will. What matters is that the NRA has got two more members than they had and they've got another $50 to spend. Ask a shooter you know, "Would you like to join the NRA for free for 1 year?" Some members would say that these guys need to pay for their own memberships, on principle. I agree. However, some people need to be led by the hand. They empathize with us but lack initiative. Now, here's two more guys that will be exposed to our position over the course of a year through NRA literature. Maybe they'll begin to like it. This way, you won't be the one harping on it every time you see the guy who should be a member but isn't and he won't begin to avoid you or think you're a nut. If he chooses not to renew on his own, fine. Go out and find some more candidates. Fifty bucks will buy a lot of primers but what good are they if you can't use them?

Steve:

Beamed Up? What if they were talking about Jim Beam?
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 09:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.47)

PaulM. Think you made the right choice myself but what fits you best is probably the way to go.
Barrel breakin. A much overrated process of grinding off the rough places on your barrel with stuff that is 1000 times softer than the thing your smoothing on, and that it only works to improve the barrel anyway if the manf did his job.
I Think the main advantage if there is one is so that if there is a bad place the brass doesn't build up so much and cause other brass to be flaked off causing a bad spot. It seems like a good lapping job would get it all over with quicker and easier to me. IF you have a good fine quality barrel it just makes good sense to clean it often when you first start shooting. If you have a junker it will show you right away by where the rag is rough and the stuff is built up.
Beam me up some Beam Paul. I probably gonna get machine gunned on this one. Kiddies keep in mind that this is just Mr. Rogers idea and maybe it doen't work in someone's else's neighborhood!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 12:25:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hello you all !

Trigger/Michael, this might interest especially you:

.338 Lapua Magnum brass from Lapua has gotten a new extractor rim specification. Previously it was similar to .416 Rigby, .30-378 Weatherby, 378 Weatherby etc. It is not that way anymore. Lapua has changed their previous rim specification to conform with the C.I.P. standards we Europeans use. (SAAMI is a similar agency in the USA). This new specification was introduced when new production changes were made at Lapua plants.

Long story in short: New .338 Lapua brass has got a shallower extractor rim than before and for example RCBS #37 shellholder for .416 Rigby is now too tight. With older shells it works 100%. The new brass can not be used with that shell holder. The shellholder can be modified with a Dremeltool so that both "old" and "new" Lapua brass can be loaded. The rim diameter stays the same so both old and new brass an be used in rifles chambered for .338 Lapua. All previous info on this mail I got from Lapua´s R&D manager who explained it to me. I of course had new and old brass and a shellholder for .416 Rigby :-)

About the rim specification of .338 Norma I do not know anything about, but they are in the same ammunition corporation than Lapua, so their specs may change too in the near future.

Best regards,

Heikki Juhola a.k.a. Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 13:19:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Hello again everyone
I followed up on the post about the re-conditioned Springfield scopes. I talked to the fellow and would like to buy one, but they have no way of shipping. Does anyone live near the Camp Perry area? If so please contact me, I'll send the money plus one of our Regimental t-shirts. I know, it's not the golden fleece but a guy can't have too many t-shirts.
Thanks
Tony <tmacke@ibm.net>
USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 14:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.37.148.160)

this is a real good site with alot of good info maybe to much but its still good
Casey Reinholtz <devildog76@earthlink.net>
Apple valley, CA, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 16:22:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.252.8.78)

Tony and all in Camp perry area-

If you find/are someone who can help get one of tehm reconditioned springfields, let me know. Please.

All-

Anyone know where I could find either the B&L Tactical scopes, or the Tasco SS scopes for sale? I need something mildot, that is not too expensive for several purposes.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
heatcamebackin, Maryland, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 16:35:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.172.144.225)

Greetings friends,
Need a few suggestions on a scope for a new Savage Tactiacl Im building. Dont want to under scope and dont want to over scope! Was looking at he TASCO SS10x42M or Leupold Long Range taticals. Any other suggestions? Also suggestions for a new Stock would be helpfull.
Thanks
Animal13 <Twiisted@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 16:47:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.147.66)

Hexa,

I was just wondering where you'd been!

Thanks for the update on the .338 Lapua Mag brass.

This is the kinda stuff that makes this site ROCK!

24 hours Al O. .........................

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 17:00:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)

Looking for some info on a Steyr Mannlicher SSG Rifle. Good or bad points on the SSG-PII. Any feeding problems with the magazine? LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 18:35:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

First off thanks to everyone who dropped by the
Tactical Intervention Specialists Website for our grand opening yesterday. We received nearly 3k accesses. Wonderful stuff. Thanks also for all the mail. Mike and I are STILL going through it. Seems we received nearly 400 pieces. Too bad they arent all sales - Mikes still wearing his "will snipe for food" cardboard plackard.

Anyway COMPLETELY different subject:

I am considering getting a spotting scope. It should be something thats rugged as hell.. I'd also like it to be lightweight as possible. (I know oxymoronic request right) Anyhow do any of you have a specific reccomendation for something of decent quality and fairly high power that fits the bill? What is a reasonable cost for one of these. (yes new - I dont like buying other people's problems)

JT - Webmaster - Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Kalifornyetia, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 18:49:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

MikeM: Congrats on the nice site. Lot of god complexes floating around in that biz you are in...good to see someone in it that hasn't lost touch with reality. Oh, got the new AR slings in the other day...vewy, vewy nice:) I guess you kept the pink ones for use out on the coast? haha

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 20:01:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Bruce, thank you very much. On the AR slings I found that if I take a #2 sling in 1 1/4" and make the rear strap 12" longer it becomes the ideal Tactical/SWAT Carry sling and has the added advantage of being a shooting sling

Al O, I called Gooch and he said he is out of slings so I sent you one to Storm. It should be there for you a two or three days. Sorry for the mix up.

Bill Wylde, has the Old Dog brought you that match sling yet? If so what do you think? That is a first attempt

Gooch I forgot to include your new design. I will send one with my next mailing in a few day. Thats a message for you BruceH and BUK

Darrel, If you guys like those slings down under we may have to have some one buy a bunch or make them there. Almost a morgage to send them to you.

Darren, I sent you an email. call me

Rod Ryan, looking forward to coming to Storm and seeing what everyone is talking about. You being a gentelman may be a problem. Everyone around me says I am first generation walking upright. By the way I wrote a review for Minute Of Angle on the data book. I was very impressed.

Well time to make a few slings.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacicalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 20:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.201)

To Paul M. barrel break in.
I read somewhere, (I forgot where) the the main purpose of breaking in a barrel was to smooth up the throat area where it was cut by a reamer. Anything else is a waste of time. This was by a custom barrel maker but as I said, I forgot who.

To All, Mr. Hugo has written some nice articles for TS magazine. I thought the articles on the military use of match ammo was very good. You can read the article by going to the hot links section of this web site and find the link called "Captain S"

Fortunately for some of you, I don't forget where I read everything,
If anyone would like to be a Ballistics expert,(just like me) all you have to do is _(clickhere)_ It is a website called "How bullets fly" It you will learn that there is such a thing called bullet overstabilization, you will learn fancy new words like "yaw of repose" and of course there is the ever popular "Magnus effect". Amaze your friends and confuse your enemies with your newfound knowledge. Be sure to click on all the pictures. If you can even digest half of this stuff you will be way ahead of me.
Steve <nato@bright.ent>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 21:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

LeMay, I have an SSG PII with the set triggers. It is a great rifle, sturdy as all get out, easy to shoot well. I have two gripes with the rifle:
First, the ten round mag sucks. It doesn't feed well, and it costs a lot. Unless you just have to have it, spend the money on ammo and practice some more.
Second, you cannot easily rebarrel the rifle. The barrel is shrunk into the receiver by a process that cannot be replicated by your friendly local 'smith. To get a new barrel, you've got to send the rifle back to Steyr. Ouch.
The stock five round magazine feeds like a champ. The SSG rings are pricey, and unless you just have to swap your day optic for a night optic all the time, don't bother buying them (most rifles I have seen include a set). There are two sizes of rings (1" and 30mm) so be sure your rifle comes with the appropriate set for the optic you intend to use.
It's a neat rifle, fun to shoot, and sturdy. I don't mind the rebarreling issue, because I will use it as a hunting arm after I 'shoot out' the barrel. If you get a good deal on it go for it, I don't think you'll be sorry.
mfw <mfwNO@SPAMquokka.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 22:29:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.0.42.224)

MikeM..
I'll be there in December.. I alway pack light so if you need someone to take a bunch over, let me know..

'lito
Dude, read your email please. Sorry about the confusion.
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Friday, August 06, 1999 at 23:24:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.169)

Quickbow (and anyone else that may be interested) -

I called Midway USA (Columbia, MO) to check out pricing on the Tasco Super Sniper SS10x42M. They quoted me a dealer price of $501.99 and a "regular" price of $561.99. For comparison, their dealer price on a Leupold Tactical (Vari-X III) 4.5-14x40 with adjustable objective and mil-dot reticle is $518.99. Both scopes have a matte finish.

The Tasco SS10x42M is not a normally stocked item at Midway - but they will order you one. [Personally, I'd go for the Leupold!!!]

I'm wondering how these prices compare with those that some of you may have found. Any comments???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 01:17:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.154)

Gary-
I have seen it somewhat cheaper. Around 500 or 550. I can't recall where, a link someone sent me and I am too tired to recal. Actually if anyone has any used scopes that are mil dot, I would be intereszted. even if it has scratches or whatever, as long as the optics work. I reallize this is a long shot, but hey, isn't that what we're all about?

Quickbow-
Tired and goin home.
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
night is good. night is cooler in, maryland, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 02:10:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.11)

For any of you that have been hankering to try Norma 190 gr. .308 Win. loads in your vaunted rifles (Hmm, will my barrel twist stabilize the heavy pill, let's debate the issue or let's actually shoot some!!!), good ol' Midway has some "on sale" in their August catalog. Item #196-965, page 79, and a mere $18.99 (come on now, it's not bad for a single box and they pay for shipping!) in the retail book. Save a whole buck if you get the dealer catalog. The round is listed as 'Hollow Point Match BT'. And for you blasters, or like me, guys who like to shoot the cheap stuff for fouling rounds, they have Malaysian surplus .308, 147 gr. FMJ, 360 rounds, linked, in a pair (yes, two) fifty caliber genuine military style ammo cans, for $79.99 retail, and $73.99 dealer, freight by Midway. If your order totals $100 or more, you get a free copy of either the '99 Gun Traders Guide, or Shooters Bible. Decent reading for the throne/library.

Out.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 03:18:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.48.60)

SWFA for the Tasco SS scopes. The SS10X42 for $299.00 and the M version for 399.00. Premier Reticles for probably the best prices for Leupold goodies and some very special tactical scopes (Leupold)that they build.
www.premierreticles.com
www.swfa.com

They are both class acts.

Spud,Out
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 06:02:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.179)

Mike,
Make the slings here? A novel idea worthy of further exploration.
If I sell them to the local SAS regiment can I call them the
"Ultimate Sniper Sling"? hahaha....

Heikki,
great post.

Steve,
Stop picking on the "magnus effect", this is holy to the site. It sorts the humourous from the humourless. I think Krogers point was to explore all effects on marksmanship without being too self-serious.

Californians,
Best of luck with the SKS deal.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 07:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Storm Mountain Dude...
Sorry, new here and not sure if it is Mike that works for SM or not. Anyway, just checking out Carlos II on the SC callendar and noticed that it said proceeds go to Mr. Hathcock. Does this mean the funds go to his estate or has all that changed now? Also, what are the fees for non-competitors? I think it would make a wonderful vacation.

Paul M.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
alabama, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 08:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.142)

You know that RCBS X die? Where does the excess brass flow to upon resizing if the case cannot elongate? Does the neck thicken? Is the powder capacity (and subsequently chamber pressure) affected? I'm just a dumb ol' Infantryman. Today I tried ordering a Lyman carbide cutter but Widener's is out of them until about 3 weeks from now. When I get one, I will have my machinist friend fabricate an adapter so it will screw into my motorized RCBS case trimmer shaft. I've worn out 3 tool steel cutters so far and RCBS has no plans to make a carbide version. Will RCBS pilots fit Lyman cutters? Thanks!
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 09:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.54)

Hello I'm a police officer in WV. I've always been a shooter and I'd like to receive some opinions on becoming a police marksman (sniper). My hometown is near Keyser, WV and I'm interested in SMTC's long range marksman and sniper courses. My question includes whether or not I should hold out for department funding(which I'm not sure will come in the near future) or try to pay for training out of my own pocket.
Thanks ,
Andy
Andy <wv232@yahoo.com>
WV, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 11:45:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.14.117.20)

FYI

The sportsmans guide has 2 US Mil Shelter halves with poles/stakes
for $11.97.
First thought: I'll buy some for the tarp.
Second thought: I'll let the guys know.

This is the second thought.
If your interested it's at:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/specialad.html?ad_id4192

All,
Does anyone know what the synth. material is that rem makes its
stocks from?
Will fiberglass bond to it?
Has anyone worked one of these stocks to fit them in such a manner?
ie. building up cheekweld, grip etc?
As usual any help would be appriciated!
buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Chasingatorsin, Louisiana, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 12:17:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.144.81)

I just recieved my ss10x42m from SWFA. Price was $399 plus $15 for flip up scope caps and $8 shippping. I am really upset about one thing. It does not say super sniper any were on the scope. after all I bought it to put on my savage with the ultimate sniper stock(HAHA).It has dots spaced at 1 mil. The dots are round and .75 moa in size. My scope came with a 2in sun shade installed. I have not been able to remove it. Holding it beside my LR M1 you can see some of the things that make up $300 dollar difference. Nothing fuctional though. It looks like it should perform ok. I will hold them side by side at the range one evening to compare the glass. This savage better shoot or I will be laugh off the range by the PSS guys.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 14:59:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.144.141)

Paul, I do not work for Storm Mountain. I do some teaching out in Calif and in the future a little here and there. I am a full time cop and part time writer, instructor and sling maker. I endorse the Storm Mountain School, the owner Rod Ryan, and Head Instructor Kent Gooch. I plan on going to Storm for a class(review to follow) and the Carlos Shoot. With that in mind I will tell you the owner of Storm is losing money on the Carlos Shoot. He is not getting paid for anything. All money is going to Carlos's family. Rod and Gooch are giving up a great deal to put this on. My only contribution is a few slings I am giving for prizes. No Big deal but that is all my broke butt can do. Others have given a little here and there, but Rod Ryan has been the one to put up the bucks

I received my new McMillan rifle today and it sits next to the HS Rifle. Once a scope gets here the games begin.

Undude/Mike
Mike M <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
calif, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 17:20:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.26)

Undude,

Got the sling a couple days ago. Very well constructed and well thought out. The sling loop for a coat hook is ideal. Can you make the swivel end with a velcro loop-back for ease of changing length while in position? You could possibly position the velcro mating to rest directly under the shooting glove. I think this would be the icing on the cake. Another nice piece of kit!

Old Dog,

Tried the ammo in testing a new AR. The results were not too good, but possibly not the fault of the ammo. This is a 1 in 8" Krieger match rifle that is fitted with both irons and a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X56 scope. Now there's a scope, but quite heavy. The objective lense would make it necessary for the scope to be mounted quite high on a boltgun, but perfect for the AR. Also, this rifle has been fitted for the LRP magazines. These allow the use of 80 grainers (to 2.460+ OAL),from the magazine, and seem to work nicely. Another new addition to this rifle is an adjustable front sight base that is being sold by Ken Pisichko of Manitoba. All aluminum, quite light, and adjustment range is about 1/2" where the adjustment NEEDS to be. The rear sight is a Warner and my first time using a Warner base. Bolted on plumb, right from the box. Real quality, and not having to fit a rear base is a complete first!

Off to Canada with the stockless rifle on Wednesday. It is shooting very well. With a little luck, maybe I can add to further bacon coming south. Called the DCRA the other day and Heike knew all about the Storm Mountain/NS gang. Way to go, guys & girl!

Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SUNNY - SE, IL, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 17:25:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.132.114.181)

Hello,
Does anyone have a Sniper log download location, or on file they have made that they can e-mail me?
I would like to make a log book that I can keep on computer as well as having the posibilities to add and change pages?
Thanks in advance !!!
Animal3 <Twiisted@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 18:09:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.144.228)

Probably a question for the guys at Leupold, but maybe one of you guy can shed some light on this subject. Both my friend and I are shooting Leopold Tacticals, his on a Tac-ord .308 and mine on a long action model 700 in 300 Mag. His is a 3.5 x 10 M3 LR and mine a Mark
4 M3. His cam is marked .308Y, setup to shoot the 168gr in yards and mine the 300 Win Mag M cam setup to shoot the 220gr in meters. Here's the question? Both rigs are launching their projectiles at the proper velocity, yet while shooting at distances in yards we are both impacting the same with the same cam setting(for example at 600 yards his cam is set at 6 which it should be, and mine is also set at 6, when it should be set a 5 plus two clicks which in meters(548 meters)should be the same at 600 yards)so why am I dead on at 600 yards using the 600 meter setting on my Mark 4?
Dan <danr@actnet.net>
USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 20:01:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.33.172)

I have a Remington 700 LTR w/20" fluted barrel. I mounted a Leupold 3.5 x10 Vari-x III M3 with bullet drop cams and Mil Dot reticle. I used a Badger Ord. one piece tapered base with Badger rings. Today I finally got out to the range to break this rifle in. While doing so, I could not get the scope to come down to zero. The scope bottomed out and I was still 8-9" high at 100 yards. Is it the scope? The rings and base? Any suggestions? Should I try a different base? If so, which one? Mark 4? TIA.

Mike
Mike D. <djmiked@gateway.net>
CT, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 22:12:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 153.36.248.63)

Dan...
Went to send you something on the 300 mag/MK4 thing, and your e-mail address is NG! Send me an e-mail.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 22:33:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.114)

guys, my e-mail address should have been danr@acnet.net for anyone responding to my Mk-4 question.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
s.texas, USA - Saturday, August 07, 1999 at 23:22:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.33.219)

Mike
Mike D. <djmiked@gateway.net>
CT, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:16:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.250.161.15)

B. Wylde: Haven't tested the ammo in the short barrel, but out of your varminter it hit what I was aiming for...just a tad behind the ear. This AR truly kicks ass...no joshing. I have not put the ammo on paper yet, as the wind today was a little more than I needed. Good luck across the border...if you see Gordie tell him to bring us some of that good beer next time he is down:) When you get back, interested in picking your brain on that AR mag you described...I think it would be a winner on your long barrel gun, but you need to tell me.

MikeM: just shaking my head....

Anyone out west of Nebraska: How is the praire chicken population this year? thanks

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:22:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Mike D. Is your windage close to a natural zero? (?) You do realize you can take the knob off, I'm sure. How many min. down does a badger base put you? Right load? On a lighter note, check the DR archives for vitriolic rants, positive critiques and even some useful advice on Leupold's bastard scope knobs. I love 'em, Bolt thinks they are Job's gift to shooters, and Mike seems to be a B&L fan. (Leslie is saving up for one) Leupold WILL re knob the thing to M1 Knobs for about $120. They also sell knobs in yards. Call their tech support # and ask nice.
Oh, by natural zero, I mean is your barrel so out of line that you eat your windage adjustment up moving the reticle left or right that your reddickle bottoms out inside the erector assembly? Some hear would suggest that you trade it for a Choate stock and a Palma beanbag. Take heart.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:32:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.81)

Hey guys, let's all hope we can fire up the ol' M3 vs M1 knob thing again and get Puma to ring in. I'm sure his rapier like wit will be the end of us all.

Doc, about the snake. Doctor say, you die. Remember that old joke?

Well, off to bed. The best girlfriend ever got me a set of Redding micrometer dies for my birthday and now she's yelling for attention. All the best to you poor schlebs.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.81)

I was wondering if someone could send me some information on the Remington M700 PSS. How accurate is it? How long is the barrel? If someone could e-mail me that would be great.:)
Jon <jstreet@vermontel.net>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 00:55:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.102.230.59)

Mike D.
I went through the same thing. Using the allen wrench that was sent with the scope, take the knobs off. Zero the rifle with the knobs off and then reinstall the knobs at zero. Check your zero with the knobs back on. They will be close but you will have to do this with every different load.
Patience is a virtue, you will need it with the M3. Go to the review section and see the M3 review. Take a valium, burn lots of powder, say a prayer and above all, HAVE FUN!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 01:47:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.49)

Mike and JT:

I've had a look at the site. You've done an excellent job in my humble opinion. The instruction manual seems to be well thought out and clearly presented (read even my little wannabe monkeyass thinks I can use this sling and not tournequetize(?) my left arm or inadvertently strangle myself). I've wanted to begin learning to shoot with a sling, and this looks like the way to go about it. Mike, I thank you for developing this product and JT, I thank you for your hard work on developing the site. And, Mike, thanks again for your time on the phone.

The caliber of folks on SC ... nuff said.

TorF/Pat/anyone:

I'm going to work up a load for the 6.5/08 with N165. Any ideas? Seems like 45 gr is a good starting chg. wt. Will use 142MKs and some 140 VLDs.

Also, what's a good method to clean cases that have what appears to be some gunk on the inside of the case after prepping and tumbling in a vibratory case cleaner with corncob. Don't really want to buy any stuff. Maybe some household concoction to "launder" the inside. I'm careful with the usual prep and I wonder if it might be beneficial to get the inside as crud-free as possible before loading.

Also, I hear there's a movie coming titled "Shooter". Based on Stephen Hunter's "Point Of Impact." The part of Bob Lee Swagger to be played by Keanu Reeves. Anyway, I've read the book. Great read. If anybody has not read it, please do. Also, "Blacklight" and "Time To Hunt". Two more with same main character.

Time to head out to the mailbox, assume the lotus posture, hyperventilate, and recite the "Undude Slingj Mantra".

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Sleeping beside the mailbox, waitin' for a sling in sultry Smyrna, GA, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 03:39:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.216.53.235)

Have any of you folks tinkered with 30/22 sabots?
Got a package from Alabama Ammo along with load data. Am considering trying a 60-62 gr FMJ in it instead of the listed 55 gr bullet. Any suggestions? Will using a .300WM to play with.
jmw <jmariew@qnet.com>
lancaster, ca, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 06:01:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.221.212.22)

It was raining shoestrings Saturday at the 300 Meter range, could hardly see the target.

Tip: I wrapped my cardboard target in a clear plastic stretch wrap like they use for securing boxes on a pallet or the kitchen sandwich stuff. Keeps the target from softening up, holds the sticky pasters even in the rain because the water droplets fall of, and when you go home and take the wrap of you see your daily spread.

"Ende"

T
Torsten <lasercon@dialup, globe.de>
dripping wet in, Germany - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 06:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.40)

Jeff A -
Thank you for your glowing and wonderful words about the Tactical Intervention Specialists Website. I cant tell you how appreciative I am of this. since we went public I have been asked to do at least one other shooting related website and some photography... neat.

Anyway Jeff, Mike and I worked really, and I mean really hard on this site. The online owners manual that you speak so well of was basically an afterthought - but one that we obviously needed. Thanks very much for making public your impressions of the site and thanks for supporting Mike by buying a tournoq-- I mean a sling. I am sure you will love it. Granted I am heavily biased, but None of the slings I see in stores or at the show can come anywhere near Mikes for ruggedness. I have 3 of them myself. I went to the gunshow at the Cow Palace this afternoon and nothing and I mean nothing that I saw out there even compares.

Well enough being a sales droid... To those who have written asking for links, I took most of today off and am about 60 messages behind. We have gotten about 500 or so emails since we opened and have responded to each. I needed a break today though. I WILL be linking all that asked and I'd love a link from you.

To whoever suggested optimizing the splash page and its graphic. I did so and thanks for the advice. Its now 1/3 of the size and loads a lot faster.

Spotting scopes:

Only one email response to my spotting scope question.... *sniff* Don't you guys love me anymore?
JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
here in the soviet run , CCCPalifornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 08:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Hello HELP.............AGAIN,
Does anyone have a Sniper log download location, or on file they have made that they can e-mail me? (Sniper Paradise site does not work)
I would like to make a log book that I can keep on my computer, as well as having the posibilities to add and change the pages?
Thanks in advance !!!
Any suggestions for a GOOD stock for a Savage Tactical?
Thanks again,

Animal13 <Twiisted@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 12:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.147.56)

Tasco,Phobis,and Shepard scopes are fine scopes is to say a 110 FP
is a fine weapon. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
They may do fine at the range but tell me how well they perform
At 0500 when the rain is pissing down on you and you've been on patrol
all night to get into your FFP before 1st light?
I also like the way Tasco secures the elevation knobs to the turrets
0n the SS An allen screw with a sharp point drove into a soft brass
stem real craftsman ship!!!!!!!!
I have Fired a 110 FP with a tasco SS Tuned the trigger , bedded it to
the plastic stock they send with it and worked a hand load for it.
After all this work it printed a .375 in 5 shot group at 100M.
Keep in mind that my overall cartridge legnth was 2.930 to compensate
for excessive Lead. This was the only way I could get any accuracy!
I also had a chance to field this rifle/scope combo after having been out all that day and through the night till the next morning.
That next morning That same 110FP went from matte black to rusty brown
!!!!!! And yes the rifle had been oiled.
Shepard scopes:This should sum up Shepard Scopes owned one used one
Sold one!

Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 12:37:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.117.43.200)

I would like to address a few comments I have read on the Duty Roster
Moly coating bullets I get 80 rounds down range before I have to clean
my bore 80 rds without any noticeable shift of impact!
Those that bad mouth it can you fire 80rds and still maintain the same
point of impact? I don't think so! And my bore cleans up so fast.
Just those 2 attributes convinced me!
Onto the Tapered bases when you order the M3LR don't automatically
buy a tapered base because someone told you -you better or you will not reach out to 1000.Mount it with your regular base first and then see if you need one! Ive seen more people use the 20 minute bases
and could not get down to 100 meters.I also see so much emphasis on
shooting,Ghilles,ETC.The Hollywood sh$# Yes that is all important
But without expert Land navigation You can't get to where you have to shoot! Hence you are useless without the knowledge to walk around the
planet we live on. Before you build that Ghille or build that rifle
Buy a Land navigation manual,compass,topo map,protractor/gridscale
and practice in a area you are familar with!
One more note: I really like people who claim to be something they are not.When you claim to have been somewhere or have been a member of
a high speed unit and you were not you dishonor those who were.
Myself I'm just a plumber.

Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 13:21:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.117.43.167)

HONDO-DUDE,

Did you try seating you projectiles to fit inside the magazine box first? Belchrest -oops- benchrest stuff is great but if ya got a repeater you should use it as one.
The Saa, Saa'vge finish sounds great! "Self camo'ing" finishes are the next wave for field shooters wait and see. ;-)

"T"

Neat idea! We use clear trash bags in my neck of the woods, pull'em tight on the backside and either tack with a staple gun or tape.

Jeff A.

Try using "Simple Green" or a similar generic Wally World All Purpose Cleaner on a bore mop. then Rinse with hot water.

How much additive do you have in the media? Are you Molying your ammo and is the moly now in the cleaning media?

Mike (Un-dude) and JT,

Great Job on the website,once again! JT are you going to come to Carlos with Mike? We can watch the Vulcan mind melds (in my case mind-melt)

Jimmy Liles,

Its "Doctor Said YOU gonna Die!"

The biggest fangs that I have personally seen on a snake were on the Gabon Viper that made headlines in Wash DC a few years back.
The one that some dumb city urchin broke the window out of the display, then stole in a trash bag, and paraded around town over his shoulder, before it got pissed and nailed his ass.....
A friend that works in the National Zoo reptile house showed us the viper while it was on R&R behind the displays, and I believe its fangs were about 3" long.
Major Ouch dudes.
And the ante-venom costs were ate by the taxpayers, the stuff is pretty hard to come by,like flying it in via jet from RSA if I member right.
We also watched a Cotton Mouth(water mocassin) zap a rat about five times in three seconds. The rats reaction was like a cartoon REAL SCARY! I AIN'T AFRAID OF SNAKES, BUT I DO RESPECT THEM.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 13:29:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.48)

Scopes; I was rummageing around the gun show yesterday looking for a scope for my AR-15. (it lost it's scope to another rifle) 3.5X10 tactical it was. Found a little 5X scope (NIB) for $220 bucks it was by ADM has a illuminated scale range estimiators and looked rugged enough for a AR flatop. IT has range compensator for .223 and looked to be the cats pajamas. A real cutie batteries and all 30mm tube and even came with the mounts that looked good a little heavy at about 2 lbs. but what more could you want. So I promptly found me a used 6X Matte Leupold with multicoat 4and standard duplex and bought it! Old habits die hard. LIke some here said this morning. ON a crappy foggy spitting snow morning I want to see what I'm shooting at instead of wondering why my hi tech super scope won't handle the job.

JT-ON spotting scopes;I have posted this before and it's not designed to eliminate spotting scopes as we know them but if you want small light and range finding capabilites easy to carry long eye relief and clear as a bell? a 6.5X20 Leupold MIl dot scope fastened to a scope base of your own choosing and mounted to a Camera Tripod (by tapping the weaver base to the tripod screw.) is a good addition to your kit. The advantages is that you have now a extra rifle scope. Range finding capability super light and easy transport and really about all the power you can use or need. You could of course use some other scope and just use a single weaver style ring to attach it. I usually have the scope zeroed to the rifle I'm carrying and just have to attach it to the bases with one ring. I might mention that in a field situation the 6.5 power is a lot better for preliminary sweeping than a minimum 20 power. Store it in a old sock and use the tripod (or have the spotter use it) to shoot also. Total expenditure is way under a good KOWA and you can see just about as good. Some of the higher power target scopes can also be used if target only is your game. if the spotter doesn't like to lug a extra scope mount a single weaver ring upside down on his scope and bolt 2 identical weaver style bases to gether and attach the "spotter/rifle scope) to his close range scope above his AR scope and it will point much better but it is much easier for the "enemy" to see when used like that. The additional eye relief of a real rifle scope although the area is somewhat smaller even in 30mm I would think it would serve as well in the field. I might also say that except for recon purposes at very long ranges binoculars are far better than any spotting scope for anything I can think off and much easier to employ.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 13:31:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

JT, will throw my 2 cents in on the spotting scope deal.

I got hiped up on the 12-40x60 Mildot Leupold when I first started surfing the SC site. Sexy looking! Bought it!

Well now I wish I had bought the Leupold compact with mils and a standard benchrest scope without mils. The 12-40 is cumbersome, top heavy, and finiky about focusing expecially at higher powers. For target shooting the mils get in the way of seeing your holes and you have to move them out of the way. I haven't had it in the field yet but I think it is going to suck.

A guy at the range the other day had a B&L, can't remember the model number. I could see the holes just as clear and with my leepoholder and it costs about 500 less.

Still would really like to have the Leupold compact with mils if I get some exta cash. Maybe in the year 20093 when the youngun hopefully gradiates skewel.

BTW-do not waste your money on the Leupold compact tripods. High priced and the legs want to fold up when you don't want them to.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 14:29:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36)

Bolt; your beginning to sound like... experienced! It's funny what looks good and what you think would be good and what really works. Too bad it's hardly ever the same thing. They always say experience is the best teacher but it's the tabb that's hell!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 15:11:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Mike (UnDude) GREAT new site !! Congratulations !

Jon(jstreet@vermontel.net) BOGUS Addy ! Totally UNcool...if you ask for info at least give a correct addy. That BOGUS addy so bent me out of shape I forgot what else I wanted to post, Oh Well...
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
HOT & HUMID, ALABAMA, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 15:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.135.173)

Jeff thanks for the comments and the check I received yesterday. Slings will be shipped out by Weds. for you and the others I have received the last few days.

Thanks to Bruce E. I am working on rear stock bags with a light filling and no rot materials. Very good so far.

Hondo, I am just a cop with a little SWAT experience never thought of myself as a high speed team member. I just do a little shootiing and teaching and the occassional medal in the Police Olympics. One day I might be a Master Sniper if I dream real well. LOL

Undude/Mike
Mike M. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 15:45:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192)

PeteR -
Thanks for the praise on the Tactical Intervention Specialists Website again. I appreciate it. Mike I think this guy is trying to get a discount by buttering us up... :-)

As for if I will be at Carlos with Mike. I am afraid not. A couple reasons. First I have obligations at work that week. Second Mike wouldnt want to be caught dead shooting with me. I am afraid i am a real newbie at this sort of shooting and would embarass him so badly that he'd have to go into the blanket knitting business and never talk to you guys again if he took me on as a partner. Third there is a money issue. bleah. Oh and about the mindmeld... er no.. I better keep it clean.

BRogers -
Thanks for the spotting scope comments. Your idea of a second scope has some interesting possibilities as I have always wondered what I'd do if I pranged the one on the rifle. Having the spotting scope as a redundant regular scope has a certain allure.

Bolt -
Thank you too for your scope comments. My father has a spotting scope with the magical 'fold at the wriong time' legs. Its certainly something I need to watch out for. weight will also be a consideration. Thanks for the warnings.

Will -
Thanks for your comments on the Tactical Intervention Specialists Website (can you tell I have that link Macroed?) Thjey are appreciated.

All -
Want to have some fun? Take your average cop-sniper who gleefully admits he is not a techno-wizzard. Set him up a website and publicize it. Watch aforementioned cop go 3 shades of green and become dizzy and disoriented as he receives 450 emails in 3 days when he is used to about 10.

A highly reccommended bit of sadistic entertainment is in store for any of you who can afford to do it.

JT - Webmaster Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Warsaw Ghetto, CCCP-Kalifornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 20:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Fellow Shooters,

Some time ago, I was shown a formula used to calculate foot pounds of recoil. It contained some constants and a few variables, including velocity, weight of weapon, and weight of bullet. Unfortunately, I failed to record it where I would not lose it.

My question is this: Do any of you know this formula and would you email it to me?

Thanks in advance!

Semper Fi!
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Too Hot In, Texas, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 20:42:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

I have been on this site a few times and I love it. I have been able to get a lot of useful information about sniping that will help me in my future. I plan on becoming a sniper and I love keeping up ith the events, which i can find in Sniper Country. If you have any other useful information not found in sniper country or anything else that might be helpful, please feel free to e-mail me anytime. I look forwar to your response. Thank-you!
Man With No Face <ian.scott.martin@usa.net>
Sudbury, On, Canada - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 20:48:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.210.99.178)

Well I've gotten tired of all the back and forth as to whether or not the Tasco SS10x42 is or isn't a TRUE mil-dot scope. We've all heard from just about everyone and SWFA finally saying they got Tasco to admit the instruction manual is wrong. SO today I was finally able to get to the range and here is the result. On a Hoppes "Sight-In" target I drew a 3.5 inch x 1 inch thick black bar - OK OK I KNOW a mil is 3.4 something but 3.5 is close enough - on the target. Placing said target at 100 yards the dots on the SS10x42 fell exactly center to center, cross hair to center and thick line to center, they ALL measured out exactly as they should have. JUST to be sure my parameters are correct my partners Leupold Tactical with mil-dot gave us EXACTLY the same picture when viewed at 100 yards. SO based on this exercise the Tasco SS 10x42 that I have IS a true mil-dot scope!!! So folks if you where in a panic as to whether your SS10x42 is or isn't a mil dot conduct this experiment yourself to ease your feelings til the day you can afford...somewhere around 2010, a M3 or M1 Leupold!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 21:02:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.65)

Rem 700P "outrage" update:

After having recut the crown to more-or-less factory spec with my new, handy-dandy Brownells crown cutting tools, I finaly got an opprtunity to get on a range this AM. Temp was in the mid-'90s, humidity pushing 90%. Not the worst we have seen, but hardly ideal. The rifle did a pretty good job of shooting under 1 MOA, a couple of groups running about 3/4 MOA, with both my handloads and Remingtons 168 grain match load (which is geneneraly not that well regarded, true?). The barrel was run quite hot and most 5-shot strings were fired over the course of only 1 to 2 minuites, with no evidence of stringing or dispersion (other than shooter induced), implying that barrel metalurgy is sound. Given better conditions and a less rusty bench shooter and a little tweaking at the loading bench, I think it will go no-shit 1/2 MOA or a tad better. That would do nicely. :) Perhaps most heartening of all, the rifle reqired less than 1 MOA windage adjustment to zero, which implys that the fundamental stock-reciever-barrel-scope mounting geometry is all pretty square. Everything seems to be looking pretty good at the moment. One fundamental question: to lap or not to lap? (the locking lugs, that is) I am not inclined to do so at the moment.

One real-world question: bench shooting vs. field shooting. I currently am using a cobbled together shooting rest that started life as an automobile screw jack. It has served long and well for iron-sighted military rifles and such but trying to shoot 1/2 MOA off of an old car jack is, um, challengeing. What I need is some other way to support the rifle. My question is this: are there any substantial point-of-impact shifts associated with shooting of of, say, sandbags vs. a proper bench rest vs. a bipod vs. resting on a piece of log? Any bench tecnique recomendations to minmize or compensate for this?

-Tom
Eager to start cold-bore shot testing and documentation.

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, Sunny SC, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 21:07:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

That web site on the slings is GREAT! Reprioritizing payday expenditures as we speak so that I may fit one to my M1A.

Bought a length of 1" EMT for lapping in my Mk4s when the SS gets here. Anybody need 8'of 1" EMT? HA!

Real curious to find out how square those rings will be on my Brookfield mount.

Anybody want a slightly used Springfield 2nd Gen scope mount? (CHEAP)

Still waiting to find out if anyone has any experience with the Premier Reticle Leupold Tactical 3x9 w/ mil-dots. Eh?

Spud; Out.
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, calisocialistfornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 21:39:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.209)

While I'm just a machinist, not a Super Sniper (TM), I would use something other than EMT tube to lap rings. Basicaly, that stuff is crap, soft, and not round. The lapping compound would be removing more metal from the tube than the prettyhard rings I would imagine. A MUCH better alternative would be a foot long piece of 1" Cold Rolled (CR) bar. This should be be about $1.75 a pound at the local metal supplier. Alternatly, look for 1" shafts from pnumatic and hydraulic cylinders at the local salvage yard. These are usualy very hard, and have a nice centerless ground finish and thus very round.

For 30mm rings, have a machinist friend turn a 30mm bar for you if you want to do it right. Of buy a 30mm lapping bar.
mike s <mws@ecom.net>
Southern , Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 22:02:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.63)

Sarge:

Thanks for the confirmation by actually going to the range to confirm the mil-dot pattern on this scope.

I was interested in one of these scopes as well but all this confusion situation made me loose what little confidence I allready had in Tasco to begin with.

I even went as far to call Tasco's so called "tech" line and talked to a mindless robot named Ahmed who told me the SS10X42 pattern was 1.96 mils between the dots.

When I questioned him as to why Tasc chose this pattern, he commented when this scope first came out there was no standardization as to the use of mil-dots (meaning 1 mil between dots) and that they employed three different reticles for the 10X42, 16X42,and 20X42 models.

He further stated that these models were on a close out basis and S.W.F.A. Inc. had them for decent prices.

When I got off the phone with him I only assumed that that was the end of it and the confusion.

It just goes to show that big firearms related companies are not offten staffed by enthusiasts like ourselves who would show enough interest to try their own products out as opposed to just regurgatating what they read in a product catalogue.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 23:02:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.96)

Hondo, (if that is your real name) I would like to see how that brass thingie holds up if you ever need to move your zero a small bit, say, a minute to the right. Does it appear that the allen screw will try to wander back to the original spot? Please let us know. I am considering one of these myself and have not heard any thing regarding durability.

Mike M., of some reknown. Man, I thought I had hit one of those porn links when I saw all the buttkissing here. Congrats, and send me a business card. No, really. Please.

What's all this Point of Impact with Keanu Reeves (wasn't that a Star Wars character? " Dammit, Chewie, we can get synthetic hemp from Keanu in the Stinkfist system.") I hope, if anyone makes this Godforsaken book into a movie, they get Gwyneth Paltrow to play Swagger. At least you don't expect her to end every sentence with "whoa" or "dude". How about Woopie Goldberg as the dog?

If you really want to read a military/war book, go get "All Quiet On The Western Front" or Hathcock's book.

Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 23:14:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.79)

Quick Leupold trivia question:

Is there any reason that I cant swap the target knobs on by Vari-X II 4x12 AO and rotate the scope 90 degrees in order to end up with the "windage" knob (formerly the elevation knob)on the left side of the rifle (aside from the L and R on the windage knob being upside-down)? It just seems to be that laying prone with the gun it would be easier to reach the windage if it was on the left-hand side.

By the manual, the Vari-X II has the same amount of adjustment on both axis:

"Max. Adj. Elv. & Windage @ 100 yards: 50in"

Thanks:

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in entirely too sunny, SC, USA - Sunday, August 08, 1999 at 23:35:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Question:

For all of us gun owners who owns either many guns or many expensive guns, what do you store it in?

This question has nothing to do about tactical shooting, sharp shooting or sniping but to do with securing our weapons in a safe and secure location. I am looking for a gun safe to store my rifles, pistals and ammo. Anyone out there with any recommendation for one?

Many thanks,

Darren
Semper Fi
I 3/12
Darren <Darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 00:39:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.11.221.192)

Darren - Gun Safes:

I have been doing some looking myself. Liberty makes several with various features. The ones that catch our eyes have the double fire protection and are rated at a certain temperature for a certain period of time - ex: 1200 degrees for 30 minutes. I'm sure there are other brands. The prices for a decent sized safe that has a good fire rating seem to range from $1,000 upward. These are of course good for storage of other valuables (ie her jewelry)

Ken :)

ImpactArea <ken@aspire.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 00:57:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.38)

Alternate ring lapping devices;
Remember when selecting these materials that your 30mm tube is less than 30mm and so is your 1" tube.If you hog those rings out to 30mm or 1" your scope is going to be loose in the rings.Measure the tube on your scope to avoid ruining $100 ring set.
Spud:
I think I would agree with Mike S . emt conduit is made soft intentionally so it can be formed/bent, it probably isn't manufactured to the exacting tolerances that you are trying to achieve in lapping your rings .
Sarge:
I too will verify the Tasco dot spacing if I ever get my rings so I can mount my scope.Then all I have to worry about is that soft brass thingee :) .
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 01:10:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.182)

All,
For those with a need to know.
I received no reply as to the question of what for art a Remington
Synth stock made of, so I drank another guinness and did the next double footed step...
(seems I always do anyway) and I jumped in:

If you have an above mentioned stock, and want to custom fit it to
your self (no lube necessary (evil grin)), Sanding results in
a smooth finish: the spiderweb finish is about .001 thick.
Fiberglass WILL adhere to the stock (feild test report soon).

And if you have any artistic/mechanical ability, the fiberglass
is not really all that hard to work with (worked well my first time)
I feel that I've done a damfine job so far, and as I said, I'll
let everyone know how it holds up under fire and dragging thru dirt.

So far I've sanded it into a more comfortable right handed grip, and
built up the RH 3 finger area behind the trigger to lessen the angle.
Future plans include: raised cheek and length of pull.

Which brings me to my question of the hour:
What determines correct lenth of pull?

Very Excellent views on spotting scope vs. real scope usage.
This thread stalls my current purchase of spotting scope for now.
How do you make up for eye relief for a scope on a tripod?
Would one of those cheap rubber scope eyegards work?
Inquiring minds really do want to know.

Now that I've taken up so much space, for the REALLY important
question:
Where can I get a correspondence course to
become a "MASTER SNIPER" tm.?
heh

buk out....guilty of drinking with a keyboard........
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Damni'msweatinin, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 01:19:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.151.101)

Wanted to comment on this lapping business. Most scope rings are being made of "prehard" tool steel (such as 4140pht, for instance) and will test at approximately 28-32 on the Rockwell "C" hardness scale. In order to properly lap this material, you need a material that is substantially softer. This is due to the fact that whatever type of lapping compound you use will imbed in the softer of the two materials, thereby cutting the harder of the two. The best lapping materials I have found for for this type of steel include brass, bronze, and aluminum. Roundness of the lap is not overly critical, as you should not just push the lap back and forth, but also rotate it as you work. This will result in a very nearly true circle.
Hope this has been helpful. I am blessed with the opportunity to do this crap for a living. If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to try and help out.
Out here.

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
KY, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 01:39:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.215.71.31)

hey all, I think I found a place with good prices on scopes. lemme know if any of you all have used it, or if the prices are not as good as they look.

http://www.tyko.com/index2.htm

Also, Nosler ballistic tips vs nosler partition. Thoughts, pros and cons, distance acuracy, expantion. Any thoughts ore info would help. Oh yeah, in 7mm rem mag.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Tryin to move from , maryland, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 02:01:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13)

Buk, Re: correct length of pull.
The correct length of pull on a bolt action rifle is the length that you feel most comfortable with when reaching for the bolt. You can get by with a length of pull that is quite a bit shorter than optimum, but if the length of pull is 1\8 inch too long you will know it right now if you practice working the bolt alot. Also there is a limit to how short a length of pull you can use, the shorter the pull the farther you have to mount the scope forward to get a good sight picture. (One good reason not to like variable scopes.)

To Tom Re: field positions.
That is a good question and and the answer can be complicated. I have read that some guys swear that the rifle powder that you are using can cause point of impact shifts when changing positions. It seems that single base powders are better than double based powders.
The best way is to actually shoot from different positions and document the results for yourself. In order to do this you need to develop the skill in calling your shots from each postion. This thing has bit me in the butt more than once. Just today I shot in a match that required me to hit 5 claybirds offhand and then drop to a prone unsupported postion and shoot 5 more clay birds. I did well in the offhand and missed 4 out of 5 from the prone unsupported but each one of the clay birds that I missed was on call. My big mistake was that I did not know what my prone unsupported zero was. I never shot a rifle that way before. I always used a sling or some kind of rest. Today that was against the rules of the match. Live and Learn.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 02:44:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Steve,
About the magnus thingy. I must have been unclear due to having my tongue wedged in my cheek. I was just razzing. Its too easy to go fishing on this site using certain topics as bait. I got a good catch of 'marksmanus maximus seriuss' (including a fine specimen of rare 'gooch'). Sometimes when I cant afford ammo I go fishing...

Now, Mr Kroger, about that Ruger in .270 ...

Chris
you got that TRG gear yet? I havent yet put the money down.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Monday, August 09, 1999 at 03:21:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Buk,

Rough rule of thumb from my sometimes dimly remembered youth on length of pull. Take the bolt out, grasp the pistol grip area as if you intend to shoot, place the trigger finger comfortably on the trigger and bend the arm 90 degrees at the elbow. The end of the stock should just touch the inside of the bicep at the elbow bend. I need a little less for the short neck and heavy upper body. I tend to stretch to try to get proper eye relief. (ex-marine, sloped forehead and stooped shoulders).

Another Pat
another pat <ptidwell@home.com>
Placentia, Ca, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 04:26:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.195.244)

Correction to my previous post:

I learned from Lapua that unlike I stated before, Norma DOES NOT BELONG to the same ammo group as Lapua. Norma is part of Dynamit Nobel and the Swedish company that is in Nammo group is called Celsius.

So Norma and Lapua do not have any ties with each other. Still Lapua claims that their "new" rim specification is the official spec. and supposedly all .338 LM brass manufacturers should use only the new version. Of Norma´s version I do not know much, but it´s price in the USA seems to be quite decent for a speciality brass (115,95 USD/100 brass). In Finland I pay more for Lapua. BTW Dakota Arms loads their .338 LM/300 grain Sierra Matchking in Norma brass. The reasons for this are unknown to me. Probably price or availability has something to do with it.

Best regards,
Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 08:54:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

To Tom/Steve re. field positions.

I think it's too much talk about .2 or .5 moa rifle accuracy. The main thing is the accuracy of the complete system, shooter included. I'm very happy if I can get 5 shots inside 15cm/300m (6"/330yds) from different fieldtype shootingpositions, first shot prone with sling, second shot sitting in a bench with sandbags, etc. Things can get even more interesting if you clean the rifle one time during the 5 shot string. Then try to take the scope off and on during fireing. Next is using two different scopes. If you're still under 15cm you have a very good system. If you get down to 10cm don't change anything!

On the 20.aug. I'm going on a 10 day huntingtrip after raindeer. There is 30km yomping into the huntingarea wich is 200km square. Everything is above the treeline. Weather: sunshine, fog, rain, snow, etc. It's a nice test of any system!

I'll post the equpmentlist later. Not ready yet :-)

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 11:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

buk

“Your” length of pull is determined by several factors.
Hold the rifle or shotgun as you would in a normal unmounted position.
Lay the butt stock along your forearm.
Bend the elbow of your this arm to 90 degrees.
The maximum length of pull the recoil pad should just touch your upper arm.
Now put on a heavy shooting coat, bulletproof vest, tactical vest, backpack and all the junk you plan to carry.
Measure the thickness of all this stuff at your shooting pocket (where you mount the rifle into your shoulder)
Subtract the above number from the max length to get your working max.
I like a little shorter length of pull so I subtract one more inch.

How to become a master sniper:

Chant this mantra, “I am the MASTER SNIPER”. Then hit your self squarely in the forehead with round end of a ball peen hammer. Remember you only want to make your head swell not knock yourself unconscious.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Housotn, Texas, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 13:19:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

I am an NCO in a recon/sniper platoon in the national guard. I recently graduated sniper school. Not many guardsmen make it through, let alone graduate this difficult course. I am the the only qualified sniper (cherry that I am) in the platoon. I am also a former active duty Ranger (3D Bat) The reason I am telling you all this poop is that I am convinced that proper sniper employment and training is one of my units most critical and valuable tools. Unfortunately it is greatly ignored at my unit. We have the weapon systems, and thankfully, we also have a platoon full of dedicated young and enthusiastic soldiers. I am going to present my ideas to our chain of command for better training and implementing our snipers. Apparently this has never been done.

1. In your opinion what are the most convincing arguments I can make for my state to devote more resources to getting our snipers up to speed? (This is a common problem for all sniper units is it not? SO this should be really juicy)

2. What kinds of training opportunities do you think I should explore, first for me to get more experience, and to train our future snipers?

There is alot to explore here so please lend a hand, military, law enforcement, civilian. Ideas is what I am looking for and thats what this site is about.

Thanks,
CHE
Che <Junglecat@msn.com>
Chicago , Illinois, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 13:29:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 153.34.221.188)

Buk,

I hereby dub thee The Zen Master of WAIF (Wrap Yo Ass in Fiberglass) or for short "Glas-Master" ;-)
I got one of them thar Brownells stock gauges for LOP'ing decisions Length is just but one facet of a good fit; thickness of stock, height of comb, drop at heel, and height of action in stock can all affect correct fit.

Che,

Dude you've found the right spot(read the archieves, and the entirety of the site too), keep posting and reading stuff from guys like Bowcher, Gooch, Ryan, and Mike the Un-dude just to name but a few of the many. We are humbled by their presence and comments.

Young Master Liles,
Whoa dude do you think Keanu is a bogus choice huh-huh? I think Rosie would be a better choice for the role of "Mike" heh-heh!

Tom Simpson,

The 90 degree trick on the scope is an oldie, too confusing for me.
K.I.S.S. is the guide for improvs.

Chao!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 14:19:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.58)

WOW HONDO...!!!
You must have really got your Hinie spanked by a shooter more qulified than you, And they obviously must have been shooting a SAV Tactical. I really never cared what rifle/make I operated with as long as it hit its mark when I punched the ticket.
Animal13 <Twiisted@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 15:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.180.199)

Hondo,

What is the thread pitch and length of the brass gouging screw?
Is it the turret caps?
Could it be replaced?

Not a flame, just an attempt to help out the brethren in the field.

Heikki & TorF,

Once again we learn from you thanks!

Jeff A,

Which E-mail are ya using ?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 15:50:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.46)

Hondo, about Molly or other coatings. They certainly have there place but that is not in a Sniper Rifle! I use Molly for across the course and shooting 88 rounds but you will not be going 88 rounds before cleaning a sniper rifle. I want you to do a little test. Take your Molly coated bullets and a cold clean bore, shoot the first round through a chronograph and the same for the next 5 rounds, while the bore gets coated with Molly. Watch the difference in velocity. Now shoot the next ten and see how much more consistent it is. Do the same thing with non coated bullets.

Once that test is done also look at doing 30-40 cold single shot tets with Molly and without Molly. The uncoated bullets are more consistent with the first shot. The first one is the one that counts in our application. It is not High Power Match Shooting. Now if you tell me that you will leave your rifle fouled, think what it would be likje after a month in a bow in a SWAT Locker in a basement.

Torseten, I was perplexed by your email request. I have emailed the person you spoke directly and I will get an answer for you as soon as he gets back. My understanding as of two weeks ago is he will take care of your needs. I have heard nothing different, so I wonder if you have current info.

Undude/Mike
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 16:56:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.138.158)

Torfus! I guess I just have to agree with you about accuracy of the entire system over time. Can I say I believe you guys "over there" have a good perspective over our gadget ridden society in the U.S.? Not to diminish a rifle that will shoot .3 inches but to do it in the dirt is a entirely different matter. I'm guilty as charged!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 17:56:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

More stock questions,I saw 2 rifles at the range on sunday with
MPI rifle stocks there phone is 503-226-1215 there in Oregon.I
called them today they make a stock that looks like a McMillan
A-2 TAC STOCK at a lot less of a price.For the price of a McMillam
you could buy 2 1/2 ;) MPI stocks. Mpi say they are all fiber glass
they will inlet the stock and bed your action they will do SAVAGE
RIFLES!! :):) and REMINGTON also.So here is the question when they
drill the holes for the action and bed the rifle when you put the
screws to the action should I use 65 inch pounds for this stock? or
use there spec? they will also do pillar bedding.Will the fiberglass
get crushed after awhile or just the bedding with 65 inch pounds? I
may want to get a MPI for my 300WM Remington Sendero.Also is there
any way I can get a gunsmith to change my Remington 300WM Sendero action fixed floor plate to a DM set up with the right parts from
Remington?
thank you for your time!

Scott Hannah
hannah@slip.net

Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net>
Los Gatos, COMMIEFORNIA, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 19:20:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.116)

I'm relatively new to the science of true long range shooting, having invested much of the past two year's recreation time in developing my skills with my AR and M1A up to 300 Yards. I've recently purchased a nice used Rem 700 BDL in .308. The gun's original owner replaced the wood stock with a synthetic stock like the ones Remington sells with the VS rifles, and he mounted a Leupold Var-X III 8.5-20x scope on it with a single piece scope mount base (unknown manufacture). I would like to modify this rifle to learn the basics of long range marksmanship...here's my plan based on what I've been able to gleen from this and other forums.. #1 remove the 8.5 to 20x scope and replace with a 3.5 x 10 M3 long range with Mark IV rings installed and lapped by a smith #2 I've already had the trigger lightened to approx 1lb pull #3 install Harris bipod (non-swivel type), use 8 x 20 scope for spotting scope by mounting on cheap but sturdy camera bipod...#4 Zero rifle and work up loads using quality 168 gr bullet #5 learn basics of range estimation via mil-dot and #6 attend a marksmanship course like Storm Mountain's

Is this a good start, is there anything I should do differently? What bipod should I consider (height?). I want to slowly mature as a serious shooter without getting in over my head and having someone feel the need to tromp me back to my humble beginings...I have no problem paying my dues and doing it the right way, I just need to know what the right way is

Jim - I can be reached at "debjim@bellatlantic.net"
Jim Mitchell <debjim@bellatlantic.net>
New Jersey, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 19:44:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Hi all,

First off, I changed my mind on the PSS and called the gun shop and ordered it. Reason being....what if I like the PSS stock? If I ordered the VS I would be getting another stock anyway and would never know about the PSS. Nobody I know around here has one I can try. If I don't like it I can still get another stock (and sell the PSS stock at a gun show).

Secondly, a rehash on a question that didn't get answered.

Mr. Ryan and Mr. Gooch, how much will it cost for non-competitors at Carlos II? The cost won't be a factor in whether or not I go. I just want to be prepared for it.

Thirdly, a new question.

Does powder distribution whithin the cartridge affect accuracy? If a cartridge is not filled completely the powder could theoretically be distributed uneavenly from round to round. It could all be at one end or the other of the case or even leveled out and evenly distributed. This would then suggest (theoretically) that varying pressures would be applied to the top and bottom of the bullet, thus, pushing the bullet out of alignment with the bore.

If this is a moronic question you may throw your empty beer cans at me in jest.

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
Alabama, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:03:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.168)

Spotting Scopes:

I've got the "Lou-poled" 12-40X60 and for my intended use I don't want anything else. Yes it's heavy, cumbersome and dosn't balence well on a small tripod. It also "Sucks!" as a target support unit for just the reason that Bolt states, too many dots on the page to tell which are bullet hits, for this I still use my Kowa TSN-1. However....the mil dots are on the focal plane and therefor are in register no matter what magnification you are using. It has excilent eye relief and very good clearity. Keeping in mind that I am a cop and consider a good stalk to be one where I turn my lights and siren off just before arriving on the scene, I don't have to carry it very far let alond drag it through the muck and mire for a week or more.

I tend to work alone and therefor because "Observation and Inteligence" are my primary duty, I find the extra magnification to be quite helpful. I also have a Gitzo G126 camera tripod with ball head that allows me to set up in an awsome number of configurations to suit almost any situation. I also have a "Leo-pulled" 6.5-20x 50 W/luminous mil dots mounted on my Remington fire stick that substitutes nicely (with proper precautions [Sgt. Mike]) for a spotting scope in a pinch and again I find the extra magnification to be an advantage for observation.

I tried the "Loop-Hold" tripod and it really, Really, REALLY S-U-C-K-S!!! Now the little calapsable unit, the one that the legs store inside each other, works for me on top of my cruiser and in fact if you don't deploy the two smaller diameter legs it even seems to work better, just keep the feet screwed into their storage positions and hold the one main leg with your off hand for quick panning.

All my gear fits into a drag bag that I got from Creedemore Sports and the spotting scope is in a soft cover form London Bridge Trading Co.

BTW: I have a really good deal on a "Lee-pooled" tripod if anyone is interested.

Un-Dude:

Great Web Page, I may just have to get myself one of those slings.

Your room is still avaliable for the Hathcock shoot, bring extra ammo, I feel a side match or two comming on. Oh, and don't forget to bring your Ruger "Master Sniper" rifle

Stay Safe!

Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Recovering from an 86 hour work week in, Beautiful, Calm, Quiet but DRY West Virginia, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:05:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.141)

Torf.
I really wish that I was talking about a .2 or .5 moa. shift in point of impact. I am thinking it is more like 3 or 4 M0A when going from a 100 yard offhand zero to a 100 yard sloppy prone position with this particular rifle. I know for certain that my offhand zero was dead on and that when switching to the prone postion it was not possible to hit a 4 inch clay bird no matter where the crosshairs were centered on the bird. The 4 inch clay bird was attached to a wooden target board that was littered with hundreds of bullet holes and it was not possible to tell how far off and in which direction to try to compensate. From past experience I find that it is not unusual to sight a rifle in off a bench rest at 100 yards and then be off 2 or 3 inches when switching to offhand at the same distance. The difference in POI shift between a slung prone and a sandbagged sitting may not be as great.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:30:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Paul M

“Does powder distribution within the cartridge affect accuracy?”
Yes.
In a perfect world the bullet is seated just off the lands and the base of the bullet slightly compresses the powder. Think of it like a candle that burns really fast. If the candle is not consistent it will burn less uniformly than a cylindrical candle.

With a full charge of powder the primer ignites the powder granules furthest from the bullet first and as the bullet and unburned powder travel down the barrel more and more of the powder is consumed.

If the case is less than full the “flame jet” from the primer encounters gas pockets and does not ignite the powder uniformly.

When the case is half full of powder the bullet moves down the barrel and then begins to slow down and a pressure wave and unburned powder builds behind the bullet. When that powder begins to burn it ruptures the barrel.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 20:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

PeteR, my feelings were hurt when you didn't mention 'Bolt' with Bowcher, Gooch and the Undude!

Need to hire someone to shoot the high angle fire comp for me, scared of heights!

Anyone have a majic wand? I need a "poof" to get ready for this match. Shit I need more than one poof. Haven't even got to the 1000 yard range yet!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 21:20:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.41)

Anyone know how to quieten the racket on a HS M24 adjustable LOP stock?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 21:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.41)

Dave; we all know what you do with that scope slippin around at night.
And I know what those dots are in the way of. Does yomama know where your are?
Ok. JIm; I think most of us use the 13" Harris. I prefer the swivel model.
Paul; you will like the stock probably better than anything else about the PSS. (see if I am right). I would not prefer the DM conversion as it is troublesome as a rule.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 21:30:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

All,
What to use to put lasting roughish texture on stock prior to paint
application?

still workin at it...
indoors since it's rainin...

before you ask, yes my wife lets me...

buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Pourinlikea-buk-et, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 23:52:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.149.109)

I contacted a couple of epoxy companies about bedding materials and learned some interesting things. Epoxy may not be the best thing to take repeated recoil shock. Urethanes may give more shock resistance and one was tried about 12 years ago by one gunsmith. I will continue to look into this futher if people can give me more information about failures of epoxy bedding.

Torsten,
What about the Viking Mind Meld. Grasp your reciepent by the forearms and slam you head into his.

Roger
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Monday, August 09, 1999 at 23:57:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.130.177)

Scott Hannah--
On the detachable mag conversion--- It wouldn't be worth your time and money to attempt the conversion with Remington parts . There are a few extra cuts in the receiver as opposed to the non-DB versions. However, H.S. Precision makes a fine lower unit to make the conversion and it is available from Brownells for 185.00 retail.
Hope this helps--
OUT HERE
Jamison <Longshot1000@yahoo.com>
Memphis, TN, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 02:07:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 132.28.31.254)

Question for all you law enforcemnet types.

If a person owns a good bit of property, lets say 6 or more acres. They have posted no tresspassing signs judiciously all around the property. They then later have a problem with armed tresspassers. Legal ramifications of defending your property with lethal force? Just to make it interesting, the property is out in the boonies, say a good half hour or more for police response.

Question was posed to me by a friend, and it intrgues me.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
lookin for more land in , maryland, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 06:07:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Quickbow,
In this situation, I would take a strong look at ethics..
Surely you wouldn't want to kill some poor soul who is hunting your property, trespassing or not. At least I wouldn't. Tell him to get lost, sure. You might want the presence of a firearm for your own safety in that case. However, if his intentions were to cause you or your family harm, that would be different.
On a moral/legal standpoint, I'd want to find out before taking that shot.
I couldn't sleep at night knowing I killed a man who's only crime was hunting/trespassing on my property.

This is just my opinion, but more than likely any jury as well.

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 06:43:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.40)

Bruce-

Very good points indeed. I had considered that in my answers to my friend, but the question arises in response, what if it is a particular person who has been warned several times and gotten beligerant? I suppose this is a moot question, as it would be easier to attempt to get him to leave, or detain for police arrest. Could be with tirednes comes lack of thougth proccess.

On another note, has anyone had a chance to try out/ experiment witht eh new remmington 300 ultra mag round? I am interested to know about the capabilities of reloads and accuracy on it. A good friend of mine is ordering a rem 700 bdl in that caliber, and plans to accurize and accessorize it. He wants me to help him to handloads for it, considering factory loads are running about $1.50 a shot.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
need a new car in, Maryland, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 07:49:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

To Steve, re. field positions:

I think shooters should look for rifles that's easy too shoot from different positions. One of the easiest rifles to control I've had was a Steyr SSG Match. The receiver and barrel was somewhat heavier than the sniperversion. The rifle had a wooden stock that has been copied by McMillan for their sniperrifles.

These are some of the factors that are important for me to get an accurate system:

-Stockdesign (straightline recoil, vertical pistolgrip, etc.)

-Recoil (as little as possible.)

-Triggerquality (twostage matchtriggers are easiest to control)

-Locktime

When it comes to shooting small groups the regular sandbagged/rest bench is best. However, to get good groups from different positions I've always had to put my hand between the rifle and rest. This seemes to even out the difference in bounce in the rifle when shooting from sandbags, fenceposts, etc. Doing this also means that when shooting prone and kneeling with a sling I have the same POI. (There must be no tension between the sling and the slingswivels when shooting) Bipods are out of the question for me. I can never get a highpowered rifle to shoot at the same POI with bipods. I use some other form of rest and put my hand in between. A shootingglove evens things out even more. Gloves are standard issue most of the year were I live :-)

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 09:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Boltser,

How could I have forgotten "The Man with a Million questions"! ;-)
Sorry dude, and please don't strangle me with those Pop-eye sized forearms from scope lapping. You Zen Master Scope Lapper dude.

Bill R,

Better be REAL careful with that thar Depity....

His entire rig is set up juuust right, I know, I dun seen it, and his loading room is most definately to die for! Now all he needs is that Un-Dude Sniper sling(Basic Ninja Black of course).

Mikey, don't let Dave fool you, he HAS seen one in the flesh, the purple/yellow polka dotted one you sent me for my 700P/.308

Speaking of Depity,

Whats this I hear about you removing the side mirrors from your Crown Vic....... Next you'll be tearing off the seat covers, or sumfin. ;-)

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 12:29:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.54)

This is the one and only Heavy Duty Sniper

Oschaf. Balthasar Woll

"Ende"

T
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 12:44:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.46)

Does anyone have a source for match grade 7x61 Sharpe & Hart ammo? (Commercial OR private source)

Thanks!
Tim Crabb <tbcrabb@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.69.33.13)

Quickbow: I assume from the fact that the armed trespasser has been confronted and has become beligerent, he was not there threatening life and limb...or the question, and either your friend or the intruder, would be moot. So, to make this simple as pie: Shoot and injure someone who is hunting on your property, you will likely lose most of your earthly possessions and probably do time. Kill him, be convicted of murder, then become the feature attraction in a prison pony ride...for like the next half century.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:06:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Bruce,

Good advice, and thanks. Personally, I think it is good to see some simple reality here on this site, for those few occasions that really need it. (this being one of the few, of course.)

One's own thoughts or feelings sure can get misconstrued but the facts still remain the same. Reality Bites, more for some than others.

I only wanted to say that so that those of us here that do regularly read or post do not want to advocate the wrongs (potential) of others.

This is still the best site, and I look forward to reading whenever I get the chance, though my missus has other thoughts....lol.... all them damn "honeydew's"... ha ha ha.

oh well, back at 'er.

All, there are quite a few owners of the "famed or flamed" Ruger's up here in the north, and I would like to hear your reasons as to why they are "no good", any comments?

graveyard shift is over, its bedtime.
Sean <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
Mackenzie, B.C, Canada. - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.197.8)

Detachable Mags: I have been testing the H.S Detachable mag for a few months now. Let me say this is one fine piece of equipment. If I can find a way of getting another with a stock to match I will throw the Remington unit in the trash after Jerry Rice and I stomp all the mags to death. Remingtons unit is pure trash. HS's is pure gold. That is as strong a recommendation I can make for H.S.'s and as poor as recommendation I can for Remingtons. Out of the five original mags from Remington only one works reliably after one year.

The H.S. Mags conversion and mags are made of stainless steel and covered with a black epoxy finish. It still looks great after a few months of rough use.

What happened to the plumber? Is he to go thr route of the Master Sniper?

Undude/Mike Slow speed high drag
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:39:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.31)

Quikbow,
I would contact your local Sheriff's Office and inform them in detail about the tresspass. I would also take dated photos of the posted signs and the tresspassers point of entry to show that he was aware of the tresspass before it was committed. Also write down and date every occurence in detail, in court the man with the best record has a better chance of prevailing. Then ask advise from the Sheriff on how to properly handle the tresspasser. If in fact you do detain someone and notify Law Enforcement be sure to tell them as much as you can in you initial phone call including a description of yourself. Be prepared to set your firearm(if you use one to detain the tresspasser)on the ground when Law Enforcement arrives. You should consider this act a courtesy to keep stress levels down. Remember not all Law Enforcement employees believe in 2nd Amendment rights and not all of them are highly skilled only about 5% are really good and they are more than likely on this site. See if you can get the license plate number of the tresspasser prior to making you call to Law Enforcement. Also check local case Law regarding tresspass. There should be a Local Law Library that you can use. I'm sorry I'm rambling. Good Luck!!!
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
Coos Bay, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 14:53:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.9)

still no clue ????

come on TorF

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
GE - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 15:03:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.52.19.46)

Hello just poking around and stumbled onto this site.I have been looking for a site like this for a long time.I am an ex-HOG graduated from 1st Mar Div Sniper School.Was first team leader of 2/5 scout snipers during Op. Quick draw and OP Distant Runner.In 95took 2nd in the 1st Mar Div Sniper Comp.Just to name a few of my accomplishments.Sniper school,MSPF Sniper Course,SERE School,Scout Swimmer School.Been out for alittle over 2 years.
Am currently looking to find info on some comps such as stalks and shoots.Do they have comps like this for civilians.Also I was thinking on purchasing a Remington 700 DM they want 900 for it.This seems steap to me. Any opinions?Any comments on the weapon would be appreciated.(in the 308 of course)
Anthony Warren <cacall2@aol.com>
modesto , ca, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 16:56:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.74)

To all-Remington detachable magazines!
"RUN DON'T WALK FROM THE REMINGTON DM'S".
I can see no reason for these for a sniper rifle (or for anything else for that matter)as the sniper needs a precision, reliable rifle for one shot maybe two. It is not a battle rifle and the Remington BDL has five rounds to get the job done. If you are going to get into a gun battle with multiple adversarys the bolt gun is a poor choice. What I have seen of these magazines and that was only one rifle that I built for Mike M. and he had extra magazines were junk and in no way reliable. I hope I never see another DM rifle.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 17:54:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.103.138)

Torsten:

Wie bitte?

BTW: They are raising the Ju88 in september.

TorF :-)

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:06:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

There has been a lot of discussion on detachable magazines lately. Most of was from the perspective of how poorly they work.

Has anyone looked into a way to load bolt actions using M-14 stripper clips? I think something can be made to fit flush with the action and allow the stripper clips to be inserted at a 30 to 45 degree angle (to clear the scope).

Does anyone know when and why stripper clips for bolt actions fell out of favor? I think it was around the time magazine fed machine guns came into common use and the bolt gun went from a battle rifle to a sniper rifle.

Looking for a better way but maybe just got lost.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, Good old USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Mike(UN-DUDE):
Hello I am new to this message board.Just found it and I am very happy.Ive noticed that there are some snipers out there.I myself am a HOG.Any way Mike I am now out of the Marines and want to get into tactical comp shooting.UKD and such like that.I dont know if they have any thing like that in the way of civilian comps.How about stalk and shoots.Any info would be appreciated.
Anthony Warren <cacall2@aol.com>
Modesto, Kalifornia, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:32:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.202)

Anthony,
The Remington Mdl 700 Police DM and PSS models have been recently advertised for sale by HOPLITE, INC (phone 502-955-5014 8:00am- 5:00pm est. or 502-957-6540 5:00pm-8:00pm est.) The dealer prices vary from $639.99-$709.99. Of course you would have to add for shipping and a fee for any dealer ordering for you. Good Luck!
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
OR, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:34:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.9)

Michael,
As far as I know High Power shooters are still using stripper clips for their Bolt Guns. My Mdl 70 Target action was made from the factory to accept stripper clips and it worked resonably well with M-14 stripper clips but worked very well with the stainless steel stripper clips that Otto Weber sells. Someone and I can't remember who makes a stripper clip adapter that fits in place of a rear scope mount. Otto is usually gone this time of year to Camp Perry then to Bisley,Eng. However he probably has someone to fill orders in his absence. He usually has the best bullet pices also. Try okweber.com
This will not answer your question regarding scope use but I hope it helps in some way.
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
or, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 20:49:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.9)

An UZI that holds 150 rounds?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

Roger Lays

it seems nobody has answered you on the recoil calculation yet, so I'll quickly do so.

The short answer is:
...
Then I realised that there's no direct short answer, and I'll have to type up part of this article I'm looking at here. Errata are mine:

START QUOTE:
Newton's third law of motion states that any action has an equal and opposite reaction, and this refers to the momentum (mass x velocity or MxV). To determine the momentum of the rifle in its reaward motion, we must determine the amount of opposite momentum (exiting the muzzle, and known as muzzle ejecta). This is not a simple matter of multiplying the bullet's wieght (mass) by its velocity, for the bullet is not the only thing propelled from the muzzle: the expanding gases set up by the burning powder also exit the muzzle, and this gas has weight and causes a "rocket" effect at the muzzle. So the bullet's momentum has to be added to the powder-gas's momentum, the latter being calculated by multiplying the weight of the powder charge by the exit velocity of the gas (this formula assumes a practical average for the powder gas's muzzle escape velocity of 5200fps). For this formula, the mass of both the bullet and the powder must be converted to pounds (because the rifle's weight is expressed in pounds), which is done by dividing the grain weight of each by 7000 (there are 7000 grains to the pound).

Let's take the typical 30-06 load: 180gr bullet at 2700fps, using 52gr of powder. The momentum of the total muzzle ejecta is calculated as follows:

180 2700
---- x ---- + 52 x 5200
7000 7000

= 69.428 + 38.628

= 108.056

Now, we want to arrive at the (equal and opposite) momentum of the rifle. Momentum = mass x velocity (MxV). Let us assume a rifle mass of 8.5 pounds. How then, do we arrive at the rifle's velocity, in order to calculate the momentum? Well, Newton's third law insists that the momentum of the muzzle ejecta (108.056) is equal to that of the rifle, so we simply put it into the form of an equation:

108.056 = 8.5 x V

Therefore:
    108.056
    ------- = V
      8.5

Therefore V (rifle velocity) = 12.71 fps

Knowing this, we can calculate the recoil energy of the rifle. The formula used is:

E = MxV^2 / GC

where:
E = kinetic energy;
M = mass (weight) of the rifle in pounds;
V = velocity of the rifle in feet per second; and
GC = the gravitational constant whic, on this planet, is 64.32.

(Just by the by, if you multiply 64.32 by 7000 you'll get 450240. Recognize that figure? It's your divisor in the formula calculating bullet energy - because you work in grains for that. We're in pounds here, remember, which is why we divided the bullet weight by 7000 earlier on).

E = M x V^2
-----
GC

E = 8.5 x 12.71 x 12.71
-------------------
64.32

E = 21.35 ft/lbs

This is called "free recoil energy" because it assumes the rifle is suspended in space, which of course it isn't when you fire it, but odn't let that worry you - this is only for the purpose of comparing one rifle with another in identical "circumstances".
END QUOTE

This is not the full article, I have just taken part out of the middle. He ends with recoil figures for the .375H&H and the .378Weatherby (this is a hunting magazine), and then the following is his last paragraph:
"For a velocity gain of only 13.7% in the Weatherby, you are suffering a 64,6% increase in recoil. Makes you think, doesn't it?"

One point he makes early on is that you will find different formulae in different sources. The difference between them is the factor at which the powder weight is to be factored into the formula. One says it is 1.5, another says 1.75, and the one used, from "A-Square Reloading Manual" says 1. Then also the average of the powder-gas's muzzle escape velocity is different for different sources. This figure will vary according to calibre, case capacity, bore capacity, powder type, primer, etc., but all will take one figure and use that.

The important issue is that, whichever one you choose, stick to that for all your calculations. Whether your favourite rifle/load combination belts you with 46 or 52 ft/lbs of recoil energy is immaterial, what matters is that for your old favourite the figure is 46 and your new toy hits you with 60 - thus you will be comparing all your rifles/loads/whatever on the same footing.

Hope this helps (and I'm NOT going to read for errata, I'm too lazy now - take them as they come). Let the comments roll!

Marius

Oh yes, the article comes from MAN/Magnum, a South African hunting/firearms magazine. April 1999 issue, page 32.
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.15.184.98)

Michael...

"Master Class Sports" at 203-775-6820 has the stripper clip adaptors that screw on the receiver, and will also machine stripper clip slots in your receiver like the Winchester Target rifles, and the Rem 40-XB repeaters...
It is run by Moe DeFino for those that know 1000yd shooters.
They also do mag conversions for the M14 and M16 mags in bolt action rifles (for those that say "Twenty shots, one kill!!).

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:22:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.29)

I extend my thanks to everybody who emailed suggestions concerning my question I posted last week. You're a helpful bunch. I'm also proud to see so many West-by gawd-Virginia folk on here....brings a tear to my eye. Go 'eers!

thanks again
Andy
Andy <arlinthicum@mindspring.com>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 21:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.14.117.33)

I would like to take a line to apologize to Mike Miller for any untoward remarks I made. I truly wish him the best.

As far as Rosie being the dog, I think the whole project will be a dog. (Movie of Point of Impact.) Man, I'm just happy I got it at the lyberry rather than bought it.

Hondo, Once you have roached all the rifling out of your barrel testing loads, get a new barrel screwed on and stick with MK or Hornadays. All the legwork is done and publshed for the .308, brother.
I understand, though. The male gene makes us do this stuff. "If it works, take it apart and find out why."

My $.02 on storage. First, don't tell anyone what you have. (So much for that) Now, rip up the floor in your closet and stash 'em in the subfloor or between the joists. Then, put a gun safe full of surplus Mausers and new Weatherbys on top of this. Any theives will think they've hit the motherlode and not dig any further for those Holiest of all Remingtons & Gummint .45s.

Oh, I've been the youngest Liles for 35 years now.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 23:20:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

Heh, heh. You said "length of pull" Heh, heh.
Beavis <fartknocker@aol.com>
Highland, Tenn., USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 23:23:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

A Joke from BigGunn:

Once upon a time, Little Red Riding Hood's mother (being concerned about the increase in violence in rural America) gave Little Red a .45 ACP for protection. Little Red kept this pistol in her basket......... One summer day while on the way to her grandmother's house, a big bad wolf jumped out from behind a tree and howled "I'm going to screw your brains out!!" ...........
Little Red pulled out her pistol from the basket and calmly replied: "Oh no you're not, you're going to eat me like the story says"..........

------------------------------------BigGunn----------------------------------------------
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country, PA, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 1999 at 23:26:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.29.101.4)

Marius, you have to stop the physics stuff. I'll have college nightmares again tonight.

After you hug your kid tonight, go hug you guns. Me thinks things are not looking good. I wish these damn people would stop shooting people that can't shoot back. Notice the bastards never walk onto a shooting range and start blasting away. Sorry had to get it off my chest.

Where do I get 5, 308 blanks?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 00:20:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.31)

Cold-bore testing: to clean or not to clean:

Okay, so now I have a 700P that seems to be fundamentalty sound. It now has about 40 rounds through it since it was last cleaned (plus whatever rounds Remington may or may not have allegedly run through it). I intend to start documenting my first rounds downrange to check just where the rifles cold bore zero is with my standard handload. Current thought it to get one of those little waterproof notebooks like US Cav sells and start stapling groups cut out of targets next to my notations and keep a running log in my Eagle stock pouch(along with various Allen and Torx wrenches. I now also have all the cool tools for cleaning said 700P (big honkin' Dewey coated rod, Stoney Point bore guide and all that).

So, whats the CW on how to procede? Do I go ahead and clean the thing each time and confirm zero from a cold, *clean* bore each time, shoot it X-number of rounds between cleanings and reconfirm upon cleaning...what? I know that the 700Ps el-cheapo barrel has a rep for fouling quickly and being hard to clean, but I cant quite swing a new Hart tube at the moment so bear with me. :) Back in my service rifle days I just used to clean it every other match and had a thing called "sighters" to get me up and running when starting out with a clean bore. Alas, when hunting game of any type such is not an option...

Thanks:

-Tom

Oh, and as a PS: whats the hot ticket in .308 brass for precision work? I am thinking Lapua or IMI at the moment. I have a hundred pieces of Norma new in box but would like more, and not at Normas price. :)
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, in slightly cooler, but still sunny SC, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 00:45:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Has anyone tried the Bushnell 1000 range finder? ding@stev.net
Ding <ding@stev.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 01:10:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.169.139.24)

Crossbow;

I do not advocate shooting trespassers, although the thought has come to my mind. What the West Virginia Supreme Court has said about the use of deadly force is this: "You may use whatever force is necessary but no more force than was necessary to stop a violent attack."

If you are holding someone at gun point when I arrive I may just arrest both of you and let the Magistrate sort it out. After all he gets paid better than I do. I definetly am not going to debate the fine points of the law with someone holding a gun.

There is no provision in the law (West Virginia Code) that allows you to use deadly force, it is left to the discression of the Prosicuting Attorney, the Grand Jury and/or 12 of your neighbors.

Have your friend contact the local law (Sheriff's Deputy, sheriffs are elected and might not know anything about the law, State Police or local Police Officer) and find out what his options are "within the law".

Stay Safe!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Happy to turn the AC off in, Marvalously Cool West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 02:11:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.143)

Sean (nailer) in B.C. Canada. Its not that Ruger doesn't make some fine firearms, its the "Political Correctness" of the owners that grind the teeth of the American Shooters that know what has gone on. Mr Ruger went before the US Congress and said that he didn't know of any reason for the "Civilian" to have more than ten round magazines !! I know of no passage in the US Constitution that says how many rounds a LAWFUL CITIZEN should or shouldn't have in their magazine or belt or whatever !!! In short, the Rugers helped hamstring the shooting public. That being said, I still have several Ruger firearms but WILL NOT buy ANOTHER !! I like my 10-22, GP-100 and yes , I do like my M-77 but it is far from factory stock...like now has a Douglas barrel,Timney trigger, and a different stock !! Does that help give you an idea as to why some of us don't like the "Rugg...uahh"???
OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Hot & Humid"War Eagle", ALABAMA, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 02:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.192.80.250)

After screwing around I finally picked up a 700 VS LH. 308. A few question for the group. Any one hear of Remington making the PSS in LH through the custom shop? Any info on any other factory LH rifles out there ? I have a headache reading the talk on scopes, some friends say German, 30mm & steel tubes. Does anyone use or handle the US optics scopes, any feed back on this.
Chris
Chris <KACHAEL@aol.com>
Reading , PA, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 02:23:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.62)

I have a Mosin-Nagant rifle and would like to covert the stock to a pistol grip sniper stock. Does anyone know where I can find one?

Thanks.
orlanod_5 <omega_1@dejanews.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 03:27:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.97.9.192)

Just a couple of comments regarding this weekend at Storm Mountain Training Center's LLR1 Course. If you gentleman would like to have the most professional instruction bt the world's best shooters you owe it to yourself to attend at least one course at SMTC. The instruction was terrific by Rod Ryan and Kent Gooch and once out on the range, practice what you have learned, you gain a new confidence in your shooting ability. Classroom instruction, and actual shooting experiences provided a great weekend for all participants. Anyone who was there will attest to that. Cant wait until this week end when I return to bother Rod and Kent again. Like I said everyone you owe it to yourself to attend at least one class maybe more. Gaauranteed you wont be disappointed!!

Next, Darrell I received the spotting scope today. Thanks again! It will be very useful this weekend at SMTC.

PeteeeR Can I tell Hondo how to load bullets??? Can I can I can I Hhhuuuuhhh? Hondo thats pointy side out. This weekend peteR. Bee there with the lovely Mrs. peteR.

"Doc" Holloway: Hope this short note finds you in the tranquil and peaceful serentity in the arms of the one you love. HOpefully your wife wont find out. Now go do those chores which you were avoiding doing while at SMTC. Hope you had a safe trip back.

That goes for you too, Tony.

Lastly the question of the evening is: If two people are shooting the same bullets (lets use 168 grain Sierra, for example) and one bullet is the standard copper jacket and the other is moly coated. What would you estimate the velocity difference to be, provided all other items were constant, i.e. primers, exact powder weights, same cases, etc. Ok you brainy wannabes now is the time to shine.

Marius: I have one question about the recoil formulations which you enlightened us about and the question is "HUH?"

Al B. Thanks again for the come up table which you provided for me. They were a great help. I genuinely have to say THANKS and that is difficult for me knowing you are from New Yawk.

ANd Finally to Mike the UnDude. Thank you for sending the ssling out to SMTC. I am looking forward to receiving it whe I get there this weekend.

Oh lastly, Depity Dave. You can not compare laws in West Virginia with laws throughout the United States. Most people in the rest of the United States are people, but in West Virginny, damn, Ill let people draw their own conclusions. Tell me Im wrong. And I did actually se a 7-11 store in Keyser and couldnt help but think how many times it was robbed.

Take care everyone!!

al o.

Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Standing here in Reverence and Awe in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 03:58:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.53)

Al O.
Are you going to write a review for SC of Storm Mountain Training Center's LLR1 Course that you are attending this weekend?

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 04:25:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.6.99)

I know this is a little off topic but I am going to write this anyways. Yesterday there was a shootout about 50 yards from the front of my apartment building in Manhattan. Approximatly 35-40 rounds were fired by police resulting in the death of the suspect and the injury of a bystander. My question is this, if a bystander is hit by a stray police bullet, can the criminal be held liable since they are the ones that instigated the gun fight?

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
NY, NY, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 04:32:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.6.99)

Shooter; that's easy .. you sue the Gun makers all of them!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 04:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bruce, Depity, and all who answered my question-

Thanks for the input. The question was an acedemic one, it came up in a conversation and neither of us new the correect legal answer. Both of us aggreed that to just shoot someone for being on your land is a little unethical, but wanted to know of the legal ramifications.
Dreaded reloading question-

Rock chucker Vs Progressive. I will mostly be using it for magnum caliber rifle loads, and some 45 acp. Some ppl I have talked to have suggested the single station rock chucker is best for the magnum loads, and frankly the startup price difference is substancial.

Question for those military/Alphabet soup agency trained snipers-

I know that the training for this spends a lot of time on knowing your rifle and rifle marksmanship, but how much emphasis do they put on handgun marksmanship issues? It would seem to me that this would be important, as if somehow the sniper does encounter a hostile at close quarters, he/she would have to rely on that handgun to do the trick.

Quickbow

Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
frustratedin, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 05:08:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.13)

Quickbow; If you going to do belted Magnums the single stage will likely serve you better.
State Laws vary considerably on protection of property. In most case you won't be able to shoot to protect it. I may be redundant as to something you've heard elsewhere. But most courts won't rule that you were justified to shoot someone unless your life is in immediate danger or that it is judged that you had reason to think you or someone else's life was in immediate danger. You will probably be judged on whether or not you had occasion to avoid the conflict and thus having to shoot also in a practical situation. I don't think there is any state where deadly force is justified to protect ingress to land. To break and enter a dwelling or business in some cases is a different story. If you loose Manslaughter is the least you would get. I am not dispensing legal advise but I've looked into the varations on state laws and it is considerable!
Several weeks ago just for information it came up about handguns for snipers and practically to a man/post it was agreed that Snipers have a lot of problems just carrying handguns due to the crawl aspect. It was widely reported that some such as Hathcock did carry .45 service autos. I don't know how true that is. But it would depend on the situation... is the sniper stalking on a lone sniper mission or is he positioned on a battlefield looking for targets of opportunity? LE snipers would usually be accompanied by other SWAT members that would be covering their movements. NOt to diminish the importance of handguns but in a Sniper Situation it might not come up often for some of these reasons.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 11:37:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Quickbow; Please let me ad this. In Kansas to brandish a firearm and order some off your property under threat to shoot can land you in jail. However a elderly Gentleman in Wichita Kansas shot and killed a 14 year old who was stealing his hub caps in a Wichita Suburb. There was no trial! Grand Jury refused to indict him.
IN another case 2 men were stealing a motor and I believe they were shat at landing the owner much trouble and some jail time.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 11:43:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

AL O.

Thanks for the well wishes. I liked the LR I course and I'm sure I'll like the LR II that I've convinced myself to go for the LR III course in Sept. If not for anything but just for the practice and the aquaintances. It's a good feeling to know that my hand loads really reach out with consistency and that my ballistic computer was dead on for the come-ups. Those Berger VLDs really build your confidence. Now it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice. See you next week.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 11:59:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Question:

Do you have any first hand knowledge of Nightforce´s newest scope
Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56 ? This model has parallax adjustment like Leupold Mark4 and LR models. It has 95 MOA adjustment range for elevation and adjustment knobs a little bit like Mark4 M3, but with 1/4 MOA clicks. It probably has lit reticle, but it is not to be seen in the pictures.

I have a regular 5.5-22x56 with mil-dots, so I pretty much know what the scope is capable of. I am interested in this new versions ruggedness, usability of adjustment knobs, how well the parallax adjusment works and so forth. All comments based on knowledge and/or first hand experience are wellcome.

I know all about older, crappy Nightforces, the Hakko connection and all that. Spare it. This new model, although size wise huge, seems to be quite a scope for long range work. Leupold Mark4´s are probably tougher if you have to use them as a hammer, though. In civilian use I think this NXS scope has lots to offer. At least BGS in Germany, whose one special group is the GSG-9, has bought "regular" 5.5-22x56 mil-dot scopes, so they can not be too crappy, although GSG-9 and BGS also have tight budgets nowadays.

All comments, that widen my and other people´s knowledge of Nightforce are wellcome. Spare me the Shepherd/Nightforce/TascoSS/Burris Black Diamond/any non-Leupold is/are p.o.s. comments. I like Leupolds too, but they still lack at times some things I find usefull. BTW I shoot for fun, not to save hostages or to shoot bad guys, so I can afford to use "too big scopes" non-orthodox calibers, suppressors and the like. Anyways also negative experiences are wellcome too.

Best regards,

Hexa
Heikki <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 12:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.10.129.65)

Hi All,
Made it back from the D&L shoot in Wyoming. We had a good time again and met somemore great guys. We finished 3rd. which made me extreamly happy because the competition was tough. Pat L. took 2nd in the Carlos shoot and missed winning it by about a second(It was a man on man shoot). If you like precision shooting and shooting at long range this is the match to go to. We "Lazed" the one plate at 1195 yards!! Its a true test of man and equiptment. Several gas guns went by the way side due to jams. I think this had to do with the fine sandy dust that was all over out there. Once again the M3LR worked great for this kind of shooting. I talked with several shooters who were a full dial off on some targets with their target knobs. One of the guys in our relay had his sling stud pull out and drop his rifle, and of course it lands on the scope, so he had problems for the rest of the match. The 260 did well, when I did my part, I was very happy with how it shot. If anyone plans on shooting the course next year a few tips for survival is to bring plenty of water and don't go to the lounge and drink beer with Pat L.!!!!

Pat L.
Hope you and Skully made it back OK, it was a pleasure and a lot of fun hope you make it back next year. Us "Old Guys" need to stick togeather(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 13:20:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Last night at about 20:30hrs a local convience store was robbed by an individual who grabbed cash from the register drawer.
Said perpetrator was chased down by three civilians and "subdued" When responding L-E's arrived, they radioed Central Dispatch that they had no difficulty detaining the suspect, but would like EMS to respond to the scene. :-)

That made my night a just a little better

Remember to say collective Prayers for the kids in L.A.

Chao

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 13:28:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.59)

Al, I hope you like the sling.

Shooter, in the case you speak of something called "Transfered Intent" applies. Basically if you do something that leads to the gun battle you are held responsible for all outcomes. It is the same if you lead the police on a high speed chase and someone crashes as a result. This is pretty basic law but by the time the jury has heard the poor me criminals side you just never see it exercised to the full extent it was intended to. Such as a Murder one is dropped to Man Slaughter.

I have a question for all of you. How many see the need for a shooting sling on a sniper rifle. I have always used one for quick shots and when I couldn't get anyother position, but I understand that some of you carry enough stuff to build positions no matter what the case?

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
calif, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 14:28:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.54)

MikeM: No super sniper here, but thought I would weigh in on the sling question. This is how I look at shooting: Work with a high powered rifle is all the same, except for the target. I think what is necessary to shoot pinpoint at distance stays the same, whether it is a pd, a 'yote, or a bad guy in the sights. Pressure changes, or so I am told, but several friends have done people work all over the world...and they say the change is very little. It is a target you shoot, whatever the target is.

I know of no position that is not built stronger with a shooting sling. Being a learner though, I am always open to hearing why people who have a choice to make the position stronger [ie., high power competitors] would choose not to. I think the problem you will see is simply changing old habits. People who do not shoot with a sling don't think you need it, people who have never taught proper technique with a sling won't take the time to learn to use it so they can then teach it...much easier to just tell folks you don't need it.

When I changed to shooting with your sling, as opposed to my old "best" way, I honestly had just finished re-reading the book on Carlos...funny, when he had the choice or freedom to use whatever made him best at 1,000, he used a sling. I took this as a lesson.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 15:40:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Pat;Congratulations old geezer did they give you the senior discount?
Mighty fine shooting my man! You are an inspiration to all us has beens!
Hexa outside of being a little on the heavy side I can find no fault with the Night Force and it isn't all that bad if you compare it to a large objective Leupold with 30mm. I wish I could tell you something that would inform but I found it very servicable or at least the ones I've been around were! Go for it.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 16:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Al o,
In my experience regarding moly coated bullets vs "copper jackets" the moly bullets have been up to 10% slower at the muzzle. I tried faster powder and a hotter primer and that helped somewhat. I think the moly bullets are so slippery pressures don't build as fast.
Anyone else?
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, ORYGUN, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 16:19:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.95)

Every time there is a new shooting write your government officials and ask them why the "bad guy" was not in jail. The latest fellow alledged to have shot the place up should have already been in jail and so should nearly all of the rest of these maniacs. Take time to point that out to your representatives and senators.

Dear CongressPerson / Senator

When anti gunners call for new restrictions in the aftermath of the most recent shootings in L.A., can you explain to them and me why the suspected shooter was not already in jail ?

The suspect was already convicted of a crime involving a deadly weapon and should be in jail – why did the government not pursue and punish him ?

Respectfully,
your name

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 16:46:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

Greetings all,
I am trying to select a scope - not an easy process. Can anyone confirm that the Vari X III has 1 inch internals inside the 30MM tube?
Unfortunately I have no opportunity to compare the various tacticals available before I buy. I have just about decided on the Leupold 3.5-10x40 M3 with illuminated mildot (supposed to be available soon). At the risk of starting another loooong thread on the virtues of various models - I'm open to advice. (I can only afford one good scope).
Intended use - matched out M1A, between 1 and 800 yards. I don't want to beat the reciever up too much with the loads required for (good) 1K yard shooting. I had looked at bolt guns, but right now it is a scope or a rifle, and I already have the M1A...
On a side note, a buddy is planning on rebarreling his belgian FAL in 6.5x51 when he returns from deployment. Any comments on this idea?

Thanks...

Mark
Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 17:48:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Frank; that is what happens you can get the same effect with a oily patch down the bore.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 18:19:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

If your need some camo fabric then check this new site out snydercreek.com This is the only place you can get Mossy Oak brand
Camo fabic by the yard. I use the 330d Cordura-water resistant fabric in the Break-Up pattern on the front of my G-Suit.
Will <Will2063@aol.com>
Springville, NY, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 18:42:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.169.198.27)

Makes me wonder which is greater of the two evils?
Hate itself or the Zealous Supression of Hate by manipulation of force of law?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 20:54:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

B.Rogers,

Who said hate is Evil. Hate, anger and all the other emotions are part of what makes us human. When all that is left but the dying hate can make a person wipe the blood off and continue to fight even though he knows that he is doomed. You really can’t understand love without having really hated something. Suppression on the other hand is evil in that it robs people of their independence and liberty. When you suppress thoughts and ideas you murder creativity and when you suppress dreams you murder hope.

Dillon’s “Blue Press” reprinted the “Coffin Rock” article again. I found it was worth a second read .

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 21:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Ah yes! I know the article well! Your point is well taken!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 22:14:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I contacted you a few weeks ago about ghille suit type covers for a rifle. You told me that you did not know of any. I did a little research and found someone that does manufacture this type of cover. I found his ad in Varmint Masters magazine. KUSA USA, Chuck Underwood, 5600 Moody Sawyer Road, Hixson TN, 37343. Telephone # 423-870-3345, Fax 423-870-8004. By the way, this is a cool site! --- Jeff
jeff conaway <jconaway@earthlink.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 11, 1999 at 22:32:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.167.96)

Quickbow,

Regarding reloading for the 300 ultra mag: There was a discussion on the Shooters.com reloading board about this cartridge. Aparently Remington is not selling cases. I checked a couple catalogs to verify, and it seems to be true. It looks like at this point, you will have to buy factory ammo just to get the cases.
Emcon5 <emcon5@hotmail.com>
Fremont, CA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 00:06:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.76.217.194)

All,
Where are the best links to look for new/used BIG rifles?
.50 and .338 etc

The Fifty Cal Shooters Assoc site is down for repairs and looks
like it may turn into a members only site... bummer.

Please point me north and set me loose... thanks.
buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Wadin'downin, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 00:08:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.146.30)

Bolt- to secure the M24 buttstock adjust it to the length you want then place a object/spacer in the gap and crank the thing down against it. Secure with duct tape then throw the whole thing away and get a HS stock with spacers. Who needs a crank out stock? Once the damn thing is adjusted it shouldn't have to move unless you have multiple shooters using the thing. Andy Weber of Armament Technology has modified the M24 stock to take spacers. Its the way to go.

Andrew/2/5 Hog. Welcome aboard. I was a member of 3/5 STA back in the mid 80's. If you want some advice on the sniper competitions available today give me a ring at (304)446-5526 at the Storm Mountain Training Center www.stormmountain.com. Some are good, some are cheezier than hell.

Al O. Thaks for the kudo's. Your sling is here and I am doing my best to empty my fridge of the MGD as we speak.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 01:25:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.143)

Pat
Was wondering if you were waiting for me to tell the first lie. Lots of good shooters, Marines, Army, police, and civillians. Good shoot all around. Will test both you and your gear.
Pat, he don't brag much, the area is about 4800 to 5000 feet in elevation, short course around 1-1/2 miles in length, long one over 2 miles all on a time limit. Sort of shot and scoot. Warm too. He did good.
Hey the bar was attached to the hotel, your in Gillette, what else can you do?
Will see Skully at SOF.

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 02:56:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Regarding Cold Bore Shot:

Typically,I would fire 1 CB shot and then a 3 round group shot so I could see where my CB shot was in relation to my group.Then I would clean the weapon let it cool down and do it again.It is important that you have your weapon clean when you shoot your cold bore.consistency is one of the most important things when it comes to shooting.IF your weapon is clean the first cold bore and dirty when you shoot your next cold bore more than likely your cold bore shots are going to be differnt.The whole purpose for the cold bore is to know what dope to dial on your weapon for your cold bore and then what dope to dial on for your follow up shots.It probably isnt that important if your just out to have fun with your weapon.But if your on any real world Op you better have your cold bore down
Anthony Warren <Cacall2@aol.com>
modesto, ca, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 03:07:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.179)

Gooch:

Ill give you a call.Id like to be turned on to some good comps.Where are you guys located at any way?
Anthony WArren <Cacall2@aol.com>
Modesto, Ca, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 03:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.179)

Chambering question:

Does anyone have information on how deep the Clymer pull through .308 finish chamber reamer sold through Brownells cuts the throat? How far would 168MK's need to be seated? Thanks.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
Kalifornia,, Home of firearms comfiscation!, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 04:02:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.150)

Someone mentioned SOF. ANy list members going to be there also?
How about the Steel Safari in NM in Oct?
Would love to put a face to roster posts and extange handshakes and howdies, or tilt back a few when the shootin' done.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
leave your rights at the border,, Kalifornia, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 04:05:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.138.195.150)

Is anyone making a one piece picatinney style scope base for a long action post-64 Model 70, or am I gonna have to make one of these things from scratch?

BTW, am I the last person left shooting a Winchester? (I won't even tell y'all that it's a 30-06!) =)

Thanks for the help.

Out.
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
just a wide spot in the road,, KY, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 04:19:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.44)

Mike M:

Unless you're shooting unlimited class benchrest or reacting to near ambush, always shoot with a sling (MOUT included).

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 05:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.159)

Bill:

"shat at..."? You're killing me here! LOL
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 06:07:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.159)

John...

No, your not the last one shooting Winchesters... I'm shooting 2 M70 Sharpshooters and 2 M70/V's in .308, and just sold my second PSS, to start building another (in 30-06!!). There are many other's on this site that are shooting M70's in tactical set ups...

But since they don't have anything to complain or bitch about, they just sit back and listen to the others complain about bad chambers, bad barrels, off center bedding, bad throats, rough rifling, long throats and short magazine boxes, bad feeding... same ol' - same ol'.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 10:34:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.113)

John...
Try MWG at:

http://www.shadow.net/~mwg/

... for Winchester LA bases.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 10:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.113)

Pest here...........

Back to the cold bore again. Me questions why after cleaning the weapon at the end of the day you don't fire a fouling shot to leave the weapon in a once fired, non-cold bore condition.

Reasoning........I just started working with the cold bore deal. For the last 2 Saturdays, I have unofficially fired cold bores(unofficially since 3 of the rifles have less than 100 rounds through them and are not broken in as defined by most of you here). On the average the first shot was from 1/2" to 1 1/2", depending on the rifle, out of my standard grouping. The condition of the rifle prior to the shot was final patch with Breakfree followed by 2 clean patches and the stored in the safe. The next shot landing within the standard grouping.

During my standard 5 shot cleaning procedure while practicing, the last thing I do is run an alcohol patch followed by 2 clean patches. The first shot with the rifle in this condition does improve but usually does not stay within the standard group.

With the frequency of shooting most of you do, would it harm the bore to leave it in a fired condition? If my mission were to correctly place the first shot, I believe that I would have more confidence if I was guessing if the cold bore was going to be 1/2 to 1 1/2 out.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 11:46:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.98.67.135)

Pat L,
Glad you made it back ok!! You did pretty damn good yourself as I recall. Tell Skully we said "HI". I think you could find cold beer in the middle of a desert, it wouldn't suprise me if you had Skully packing it for you(HA).

Pablito,
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about those factory Remingtons(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 11:50:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Paul; What good is the English language if you can't make up your own words? "shat"; as in having been "shat at and missed". Shooting without the intention of doing harm!. As in we were shat at as we handed the melon over the fence to Charlie who was shatting his pants.
(a lot of words have more than one meaning).
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 11:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bolt,

Your last sentence about the Cold Bore Shot (CBS) said it all. That's exactly why we plot the CBS, so we can make first round hits with confidence. Any follow-ups will be within your "standard grouping".
I don't think it is wise to store the rifle with a fouled bore, as it is likely to cause rust/corrosion/pitting, and ruin a good barrel. There is an article written here at SC called "Rifle testing for Dummies" that really covers the CBS very well. I think Scott wrote it. It is well worth the time to read it.

Best Regards,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 12:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.82)

John:

On the Winchester LA Picattiny Base.

You might want to try US Optics. They are on the hot links.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 12:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Bolt,

Scott's article can be found under "Articles and Commentary". I used this article to test my rifle/scope setup and plot the CBS. Very helpful in establishing just how accurate the rifle is, and just where that CBS will go.
Also, check out some of the comments on the CBS on the "Hot Tips and Cold Shots" here at SC. Much wisdom there for sure.

Best of Luck to You,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 12:55:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.82)

Bolt,
I have found that if you clean your rifle the same way every time and leave it in the same condition that it will put the cold bore shot in the same place. I clean mine at home so its tough to fire a shot after cleaning, I am sure the wife and neighbors would complain about that(HA). I make sure that after I clean the rifle that I run at least 5 to 6 dry patches through the barrel to get out any hoppes that may be there. I do this every time and the CBS is usually in the same place every time. I know to hit a 1 inch paster the first shot I will have to hold on the upper edge at 1:00 because it will go low left. Both of my other custom guns go into the exact group for the cold bore shot maybe thats why they cost more(HA) but anyway give it a try and see if you don't start getting at least a consistant spot where that first round goes and then just plot it and know where to hold because if you start shooting matches you will need to hit that paster at 100 with a cold bore shot and sometimes 200 yards.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 13:41:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Guys, I want to thank you for the response here and on email about slings. I have always used and taught slings but heard a few didn't. I just wanted to test the waters if I was the only one teaching slings or not. Obviously I have an interest in guys using them. I mean I designed one for our purposes and now sell them. Looks like most of you use them including Mr. Sniper Craft, Derrick Bartlett. It is just another trick in the bag.

Jerry I wondered when you would no longer hold your tongue about the Remington PSS DM Mags. Pure crap is the only way I can talk about them. I think the HS is the way to go. The one they sent me is as good as I have seen. Not one malfunction in two months of hard use.

I have to down size my Ghillie Suit. Going to go from a one piece to a two piece so Rod Ryan doesn't have to decide to do CPR or let me die on his course and competition.

Pete, I got the new "Econo Supports" very light weight. I will check them oyut and get back to you.

Time to go and shoot that McMillan Rifle. If it shoots as well as the HS Precision and NorCal rifles, I will have three bench rest quality rifles to use. I can not believ how good the two so far have shot. I keep taking them thinking today is the day they will go over 1/2 minute but they still shoot 1/4 to 1/2 all day dirty or clean.

MIke
Mike M <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 15:13:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.54)

Jeff Conaway, I always enjoyed you and the rest of the gang on "Taxi". I heard you, and just about every other cast member, got to know Marilu Henner pretty well! Glad to know you are a shooter too. Welcome aboard. (just in case you really are the TV/Movie guy...)
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 15:30:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.51.16)

Pablito:
I had never considered a "lack of bitch fodder" to explain the silence of Winchester shooters on the Duty Roster! I had a PSS. I sold a PSS.
'nuff said.
Thanks for the link, I found exactly what I was looking for (it isn't tapered, but that I can deal with) and I am going to go ahead and open up the rifle and base to accept 8-40 screws, just to beef things up a bit. There is also an excellent, but short, dissertation at this site (www.shadow.net/~mwg/) on lapping rings.

Tony,
Thanks for the link

Anybody had any experience with the McMillan M40A1 stock? Found one for the Model 70 for $250.

Thanks again,

Out.
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
out in the sticks,, KY, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 15:59:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.43)

To whoever my find this entertaining,
I think that perhaps the reason the Winchester shooters are quiet most of the time is that they don't want the Remington guys to convert over to a rifle that doesn't need a new barrel or trigger to be competitive :)
Really it seems when I was shooting acroos the course Winchesters were dominant so I used a Winchester. I shot Remington Creedmoor in black powder matches in excess of 1000 yrds.(44/77) It is an original and it gave me some degree of confidence. I have always liked Remington firearms. I believe that if something makes a person feel more confident in their shooting they will do better. Think ear hit ear, think X hit X. Think pd explosion and I will occur.
GOOD SHOOTING :)
Pablito, Thanks for the ph# of Master Class Sports .
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, OryGUNN, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 17:06:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.17)

Hi everebody. Nice site. I was lurking for about 1 month and found most of the answers to my question without asking. -g-
Anyway, i have read some comments about remington DM mags, and somebody mention that they are shit.(pardon my language) I completle agree with those people. I bought the Remington PSS with DM and bought one mag separately, both had same problem with feeding last cartridge. I have send them back to the factory (new rifle for the God sake!) and now it is 3 weeks and I don't have them back...
I saw somebody mentioned HS mags, is it HS Precision or it is different company? Can i order those mags by internet?
Thanks, HK
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, ca, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 17:22:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

A tip for Sako and Tikka owners:

There are no sloped rings or Picatinny rails for these rifles off-the-shelf and this is a nuisance to some. A good solution to overcome this lack of equipment and to avoid expensive custom made bases is as follows:

1) Buy one set of original Sako/Tikka Optilock scope rings from a gunshop. At least shops selling these rifles can obtain these rings easily, some shops may not want to bother. They are made by Sako, so quality is good. Buy that model with a separate base (there are Optilock rings without a separate base but they are less sturdy and this tip is not suitable for them) in proper height (low, medium or high depending on your scope, the dealer can help in choosing the right one). BTW these rings are available for 1" and 30 mm scope bodies in stainless and blued steel. For tactical use blued steel is preferable, although matte black would be better. Bowflake can cure all finishes to matte if you want to, so it is not a big deal.

2) Remove the base from the ring (do this for the ring that will be the "aft" ring i.e. that one that is closest to you when you shoot). You need a millimeter based hexwrench for this. Any inch-based wrench will destroy the machine screw.

3) Take a thin strip of steel ( 1mm equals to 25 MOA or more, 0,8 mm is close to 20 MOA), cut a piece that is the same size as the base plate and drill a 7 mm hole through it in the proper place. Put this piece of steel between the base and ring and screw the unit back together. You now have a sloped ring set. Calculations for the exact thickness of this shim must be made for your rifle with the scope first installed in a normal way and sighted in for 100 yards/meters /whatever you like. The exact calculations for the shim thcikness must be based on YOUR rifle and scope. From www.riflebarrels.com you can find the calculation methods.

4) OK you now have a sloped/shimmed ring set. "This torques the scope out of straight, you fool !" shouts somebody in the back row. Nope, it isn´t so with Optilock rings because Optilock rings have a plastic/composite ring inside the steel rings, just like Burris Signature and these rings allow for the scope to be at an angle inside the rings without any torque (within reason, of course) coming to the scope. I would prefer to have Signature type composite rings like Burris has in different off-center thicknesses, but there might be some patent issues at stake. And Burris does not offer Signature rings for Sako/Tikka.

5) Install the scope and sight it in. You´ll see that now you have more elevation adjustment range left for the longer ranges.

Is this the best possible way ? Of course not because the plastic/composite ring may not be able to tolerate nuclear radiation, chem warfare and other not-so-nice stuff that military equipment must be able to tolerate. Still Picatinny rails for Sako are available only through custom shops and their price will not be cheap. For civilians this is the way to go with Sako/Tikka rifles.

In any case for about an hour (or two) of work any Tikka or Sako owner can make with a few basic handtools sloped rings that won´t destroy the scope without practically any extra investment in addition to the price of regular rings. And these modified sets do work "as advertised". My friends have several sets in their TRG-21´s, 338 Lapua Magnums and I will make my own in short order. Now from my 60 MOA adjustment range already 24 are eaten up when I sight-in for 150 meter range without shimming. With 20 MOA shim, I´ll have 55 MOA left and that is nice to have in a 338 Lapua Magnum.

A better way would be to grind material away from the top of the front ring base and the calculations are the same. This requires new bluing and for the remowal of metal you need proper machining tools AND skills. That method is optically better looking, but then your ring set is then dedicated to your present rifle only. I read somwhere that Tikka/Sako rings cost around 100 USD/pair everywhere, so I would not like to make permanent modifications. The long method above is nice in the way that you can allways change things back to original if you choose to do so.

Sorry for the long post but I thought some Tikka/Sako owners might want to know about this method. It works, it is cheap and it is easy to do. What else could tou possibly want.

Heikki
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 18:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.229.255.16)

What a great site !! I'm just an old shooter but I truly like what everyone has to offer. Great job !!
Rob <targuete1@hotmail.com>
Tacoma, WA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 19:03:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.42.192.197)

John,
The M40-A1 is a great field stock and is very comfortable to shoot with and carry you will like it.

HK,
Yes,it is H&S precision and you will have to buy the conversion kit from them to take their mags. You will need to get the new trigger guard and floor plate ass.from H&S for the H&S mags. They are suppose to be coming out with 10 rounders also. Hope this helps you out.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 19:41:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

You Guys are all right!
I'm sure that I am not the only one to read their own post and only then to find errors. What amazes me is that most of you are mannerful enough not to give me flak over it. I'm hard enough on myself. (I think)
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, OR, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 19:48:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.97)

John, Re: one piece picatinney style scope base for a long action post-64 Model 70

John, check this gunsmith out.

Scott Medesha
10326 Adobe Road
Apache Junction
Arizona 85220
(602) 986-5876
These bases come in two sizes , the long one is 8 inches and is milled for
long range to get extra elevation adjustment and is called the long range
version. He also makes a shorter one which is 6.5 inches called the tactical model
but this one is not milled to add elevation adjustment.

Torf, your email did not work for me.
I am not sure I understood what you meant by "(There must be no tension between the sling and the slingswivels when
shooting)" What would be the point of using a sling at all then?
Please elaborate!

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 20:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

ALL:
Well it is time to own up to the way it went in Canada. There were about 200 shooters and the teams from Canada - England and the U.S.A. were pretty evenly matched. At the end of the first day the U.S. team was in position for the Silver Medal. By the end of the fourth and last day the 12 fellows from England had cought us and took second place beating the U.S. by just five points. It ended up with Canada taking the Gold, England the Silver and the U.S. the Bronze. We had a terrific time as the Canadians know how to put on a long range match. These matches were fired over four days at 300-600 meters. (That is as long as the range is at the General Volkes facility)
I admit we got beat, but we did not exactly get our asses kicked to hell and back. I owe my British buddy a case.

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 21:47:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

To Steve, re. match-slings.

The idea of a match-sling is to lock the supporting arm in fireingposition. Shooting prone the sling is fixed with a loop as high as possible, near the shoulder, around the upper arm. The the hand is then locked in the sling in a similar loop(doublesling/clamp) between the thumb and indexfinger. The sling is then adjusted in such a way that the upper and lower arm and the sling makes a triangle. Doing this you don't have to "hold" the rifle yourself. The shooter can "relax" because the sling holds the arm in shootingposition. If the matchsling also doubles as a carriengsling the part of the sling between the hand and forward slingswivel and the rear part between the upper arm and the rear swivel should be loose and have no tension when shooting. Properly set up the left arm acts like a rest for the rifle.

MikeM can elaborate on this and he speaks english :-)
TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 22:29:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Grammar Police! Pull over.

Apparently, someone has forgotten that 'shot' is the correct past tense of 'shoot'. 'Shat' is the past tense of '$#!t'. (for the delicate ears of the readers, the last word has been encoded. Ya'll know what it is, though.)

The sentence rendered earlier should be:
"We were shot at as we handed the melon over the fence to Charlie, who shat in his pants."

If indeed you were shat at, either get out of the bottom of the latrine or request that the 'shatter' cut down on his Tex-Mex intake and point it in a safe direction.

On the other hand, writing in a after-action report that you were shat at would certainly lend it a different meaning.

Enough on this topic.

Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn., USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 22:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.28.97)

Yah! No Shat! Karl, And next you'll be tellin me that Damnyankee is a hypenated word. Yah?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 23:53:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Heikki;It's Ok I'll take my chances. I think I will melt before the scope rings do!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 12, 1999 at 23:57:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hi all... I'm in the process of building an American HK91 up as basically a poor man's PSG-1... PSG-1 trigger group, stock, grip, etc. However, I am in need of suggestions as to what to do about a barrel. A true PSG-1 barrel from HK uses a different trunion, and I have not found a trunion that fits a PSG-1 barrel to a HK91 receiver. So, what I am looking for is to buy a barrel or have one made that bears the closest possible resemblance to a PSG-1 barrel, both cosmetically and in terms of performance. Does anyone know of a barrel maker that can furnish me with such an item?
Richard <rdowdy@world-net.net>
TX, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 00:21:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.30.243.182)

TorF: Thanks for the quick reply, and from your last answer, I can tell you certain, that is not the way we do it in this country. The forward part of the sling does not go between the hand and the rifle, the hand is crammed up against the forward sling swivel and the sling is on the backside of the hand, and attached to the support arm. I can go along with the rear swivel being loose, but if the front swivel is loose then there would be no tension on the sling and the sling would not do its job. Just to be clear, are you saying that the support hand grasps the forward part of the sling as well as forearm of the rifle in Norway? Verrrry interestink!
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H.I have as much right to write a dictionary as any other man! :-), Ohio, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 00:26:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

B.Rogers,
Damnyankee is supposed to be two words???
Hmmmm...
buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Swealteryin, Louisiana, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 00:38:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.150.123)

Hey, any of ya'll ever use one of those mercury recoil buffers? Do they work? How well? Is it a valid alternative for those of us that hate muzzle-brakes, compensators, etc.? (I'm speaking of a product like the one called Breako that can be found in Brownell's catalog)

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 00:40:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.238.142.188)

OK guys

Has any one put the Bushnell 800 or 1000 laser range finder up against the Nikon 800 LRF. Since they are all around the same price, which one is the better buy for the money.
Many Thanks
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:10:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.73)

TACTICAL SHOOTING IN SACRAMENTO:

Some one E mailed me about a competition in Sac.on the first sunday of the month.I accidently erased the E mail.Please send the info again.Sorry for the bother.
Anthony Warren <cacall2@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:33:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.39)

Andre, before you blow the money on the mercury recoil killer, may I suggest you give a Pachmayr Decelerator pad a try. Lock, Stock and Barrel has 'em for about $25. They really do work.

All you sling fans. I wonder about sitting in a classic NRA position with a tight sling, holding. Does it not get a little uncomfortable? I shoot with a sling (1903 style) quite often, and can't seem to go more than about 5 minutes or so without having to wake up my arm. It does work, though. Is a cuff the answer or is it one more piece of kit to worry over? Thanks for any advice.

For what it's worth, here's one of the best lines ever from The Bard: "We are as flies to wanton boys. The gods destroy us for their
sport."
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.83)

I need your impressions on Springfield 6 x 20 x 56 Gen 3 scope? I have found a pretty good deal on one and wanted to know your thoughts.
Thanks
KsTactical <wilsons@kstactical.com>
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 01:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.35.225.41)

BRogers: Everyone making fun of your use of the term "shat" is getting their name written down in that little book I keep...right next to my stack of subpeeners. You just say the word man...frivilous litigation will be on them like rain. After we wear 'em down a bit, we will settle for a couple of nice guns:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 02:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Boy has it been a busy week. Fun, but exhausting! All work and no play makes JT a dull boy, so today we took some time off to go shooting. shooting. I had the opportunity to accompany Undude-Mike to the rifle range this morning and we both broke in new tactical rifles. I'll leave him to tell you the specifics about the guns he was using, but lets just say that he appeared pretty damn pleased with them. My Winchester Model 70 (Heavy BBL) is coming along well in its break-in as well. This weekend I'll finish the process. The jury is still deliberating on the accuracy of this gun, will wait till break in is complete before deciding. For some strange reason, at this point in the process it shoots the cheapie lightweight Winchester 147 gr ammo a lot better than the Federal Gold Match 168 stuff! Go figure. Some special Thanks: One week ago today we opened the Tactical Intervention Specialists website. The reception has been phenominal for a small accessories manufacturers page. So far Mike has So far Mike has received well over 2000 visitors to the front page alone! TIS has received many hundreds of notes, letters, and links. Thanks to everyone that has stopped by and looked around and or sent us a note on what they think of the site. BIG thanks to all of you who have linked us Just ask and we'd be pleased to link back to your pages as well.

Now to go get the smell of Sweets and Hoppes out of my favorite shirt...
JT - Webmaster - Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Kaliforina, CCCP - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 02:19:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

John
The M40 stock is the same stock that the Marines are still useing. Got one on my Remington, the same one that I packed all over Gillette. If you are used to a stock with a high comb you may not like the M40. Look closely at photos of the Marines, some of them tape lots of stuff on the comb to get proper alinement.
What part of Kentucky are you from? That's my old hunting ground. Might be back there around Christmas.
Steve
Will get back to you on the muzzleloader.
Pat
It's nice to have a big feller to pack your gear for you. Irish stout only.

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, UT, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 03:32:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.179.197.117)

Yeah Bruce and it's glass action now They got ole Buk thinking about stuff he hadn't ought to be so confused he don't know what a yankee are. What jawl call that metal angels?
Yeah soon as we can get together I'd like to have one them subpeeners with mustard and jelleypenis and might take sum reelish too.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 03:44:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hello all:

I have another question for ya'll. I'm looking into buying a new rifle for hunting/long range. I have read the posts concerning this type of question but am curious about everyones thoughts on the .260 Rem.; meaning the kind of info available and the price I could expect to pay to customize a rifle in that caliber. I realize the info available is not going to be as much as say the .308. The wife says I get to spend around $800-$1000.

Andy
Andy <arlinthicum@mindspring.com>
Morgantown, WV, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 04:40:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.14.117.67)

Mike M:

I know what you mean about having to go to the 2 piece G suit in the summer. I now use a proprietary, moly-coated, thong bikini G suit design with black, brown and green sequins & matching drag bag. I call it the Gillie String (G String for short). The pumps are out, though, as they tend to catch in pd holes between the primary, alternate and supplementary fighting positions during the "withdraw under pressure" drill.

BRogers:

Sorry for picking on you. Send me your mailing address and I'll give you some hand swaged bullets to test.

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 04:47:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.138)

To All:

I own a 338 Lapua Magnum, and a 50BMG and I am having the hardest time finding a civilian range to fire it on, I have the ability to use Quantico Marine Base but they have to alert the International Airport next door the day prior to when I will be shooting. This for me is a pain in the butt! In addition to having to call ahead I can only shoot out to 300 meters, I am searching for anywhere within a 3-5 hours drive that I can fire these weapons at, I am military and have access to all facilities but they say that the cartridge is too big for civilian rages and that i would have to head out to the MidWest to find a range that can handle those calibers. Tell me, I may be mistaken but the military uses ranges to fire their M2 machine guns to 1000 meters why can they not open those ranges up for long range firing by military personnel. I am looking for anything from a open field to a farm or a actual range, I paid all the money for these guns and now that I am in DC I can't do anything but look at them!
Any thoughts or anything from you fellow shooters is very much appreciated.

Thanks and happy shooting! You can reply by email also!

Michael
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 05:00:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.74.146)

Pat:

I'm in Taylor County, very nearly dead center of the state. Come on over at Christmas! The Lake will be at winter pool and we can put the sneak on the Corps of Engineers and get off a few shots at my "secret" 1100 meter range before the park rangers show up. I am assuming you know all about E and E corridors? hahaha Thanks for the comb info regarding the M40A1 stock. I am a fanatic about setting my optics as close as possible to the action, and therefore actually prefer a lower comb height than what is commonly seen.

Andy:

Have you considered the 7mm STW? Was able to fool with one of the Remington Senderos last year in that chambering. Seems to shoot about as flat as a banjo string out to around 500M! Plenty of load data out there, factory ammo seems pretty common now. Might be worth a look.

Slings!:

I can't recall EVER taking to the field with a rifle that wasn't equipped with a 1.25" M1907 sling. Dad started that, said that was how you shot "that old Garand". I had grown into a young man when I finally realized that you could use a sling to CARRY a rifle! I believe some of my most spectacular shots were more the result of knowing how to properly use the sling than any other single factor.

Out.
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
ain't none of them in this state, I don't reckon!, KY, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 05:53:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.176)

Okay, I'm just getting a chance to leave this message...
Wednesday on NBC's Nightly (5:30) news w/ Tom Brokaw they had a feature on the guy in So. Cal. that shot the Jewish kids somewhere (I didn't really remember the whole story I was so mad, my facts are off somewhere I'm sure).
Well apparently one of the kids who was saved decided (I'm sure due to his parents' influence) to write the nice policemen a thank you letter. The kid looked old enough to be using a pencil and pointy scissors, but wrote in crayon on colored paper (which i think is a crock for ratings since he didn't look that young)
anyway...The kid wrote "Thank you policemen for saving us/me from the gun. --(His Name)"!!!!!!!!!!
From the gun.....Not the killer/lunatic/white supremacist/etc.
He was saved from "the gun" As if *IT* jumped into that nice guys hands, and led him to their school/synagogue/whatever and held them hostage. The guy was already in violation of 15 to 20 laws and the politicians are using this as another soapbox.(saw that one coming didn't ya)
That is one brainwashed little kid if he thinks the "evil, evil gun" did that.
Bad news too, the guy was apparently carrying 5000 rounds of reloaded ammo for his AR-15 (super super evil kid killing gun, of course). Look out for bulk sales of ammo to be prohibited. Hmmm, perhaps only one bullet per day, kinda like that one handgun per week deal. scary.
Then some reporter (Robert Bozel(sp.) perhaps) had a feature on how *evil* gun manufacturers got rid of the bayonet clip and something else to make the AR-15 legal again.
Southern California is going to bring us all down it seems. No offense to good people living there, but they have the crisis and the state starts the BS lawmaking.
Sorry for the long ranting post, thought it would interest/apall some of you
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
Sitting here outraged in , IL, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 06:52:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.28)

Micheal - looking for a range:

Hey neighbor - there is a range out in Remington Va. Supposedly, some gentleman owns a large quarry. You have to join his shooting club and currently can only shoot when he is present. I have been kinda probing this one myself. I have had several people tell me that there's lot's of long range shooting room there. After all, it is out there in the boonies in Fauquier county Va.

Ken
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 11:11:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Andy,
The 260 would make and excellent long range and hunting rifle. You can shoot any bulllet from 85gr to 160gr for game and they have the best bullet line up in match bullets of any caliber. I have a stock Remington VLS that I bedded into a PSS stock and it shoots as well as my custom barreled 260. The 260 with the 140 or 142MKs is capable of excellent 1000 yard accuracy the only draw back right now to this caliber is that you will have to reload to get match ammo for it since there is no factory match cruently being produced. With this caliber you have the ballistics of a 300WM and the recoil of a 243.

Andre,
I have used the mercury recoil reducers in shot guns for trap and they worked fine. I have never tried one in a rifle but I don't know why they wouldn't work the same. If you get one and put it in, they need to be put in the right way(Good and tight) or they will not work right.

Pat L,
10-4 ont he big guy!! We might be old but we ain't dumb!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 13:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Matt,

Have you seen anything in the media in the last few years that wasn't a blatant misrepresentation? They can't report on the local race for dog catcher without employing footage intended to be as grossly manipulative as possible. Have you ever noticed how they never interview us strong types? They want the blubbering "who will take care of me?" types. Jeff Cooper refers to these as "rabbit people", I believe, and they are the media's children. This lunatic's spent casings were still warm and Clinton was already on the airwaves announcing "another senseless case of gun violence". It seems as though no one even thought about those kids or their families, just wanted to skip right to the call for MORE gun laws. Question.....did the shooter heed any of the other laws he had broken?

Sorry, guys. There is no need telling y'all this, you already know it. Funny, isn't it? Here on this "evil" shooter's site.....I'll bet that as a group we are probably far less interested in killing people than any average group of Wal-Mart shoppers! (that wasn't directed at Wal-Mart, just needed an example!)

It is very frustrating to "get it" when no one else seems to, huh?

Out.

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
politicketly inkorrekt, KY, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 13:17:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.48)

.260 Remington

It would seem that a number of people here have realy taken to the .260 Remington and that it has eclipsed the 7mm-08 as the hot mid-bore precision cartrige. Cool. I am big into 6.5s now and was wondering how I might put my substantial bullet inventory in this caliber to better use.

Question: How does .260 compare to 6.5x55 Sweedish, the 6.5mm cartrige I have the most experience with?

Thanks:

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Balmy Coaltown, in the still Confederate flagged state of, SC, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 13:36:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.213.174.1)

JOHN I guess you have never shoped at the Wal-Mart in Keyser West Virginia.

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 14:01:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

All,

There is of course a fine line between comedy and statements that are just not funny. If I have given any of you offence with my comment I apologize. Have you ever thought of something that to you is really funny but when uttered falls flat? My intent was solely to amuse and I thought a good subject for a joke would be to take two groups that are diametrically opposed to one another and exploit their differences in the name of humor. Sometimes in my buffoonery I go to far, so please accept my apology.

I understand the Gun Culture has many enemies waiting to exploit any opportunity so in the future I will keep my comments on topic.

Michael

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 14:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.163.248.80)

Tom,
Maybe Torf or one of the other guys more familiar with the 6.5x55 could answer this better but from what I can tell the 260 would be very close to the 6.5x55 in ballistics. I have not seen any info on reloading for it other than in books and I know as far as those velocities are concerned they are really close. I can push a 140 to 2800fps but choose to shoot it at 2700fps. I shoot 100 grainers 3200 fps in my BDL hunting rifle with excellent accuracy. The 260 is what they call a high intensity cart. so it runs right up there in pressure compared to a lot of others. Hope this helps answer your question.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 14:23:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Andre, Honestly, no BS, I am glad to see you back. Let me know about the Mercury Recoil Reducer, I have wondered but never willing to spend the money on one for a test.

Slings, A sling is used to hold the rifle tightly into your shoulder. The tension should be so tight that when you roll into position and take your finger trigger hand away the rifle does not fall out of the shoulder. This will cut down your circulation. The narrower the sling the more it cuts into you. The wider the sling the longer before the blood flow slows and your off hand tingles. A 1" wide sling will bruise you badly. A 1 1/4" has been the standard for years and is still the way to go on a Tactical Carbine. The 1 1/2" wide seems to be the ideal one. It quiets the swivels and provides as wide a base as possible without getting into fitting problems of standard rifles.

The sling should wrap over your off hand as your off hand is forced against the swivel stop. If this is a standard quick detachable swivel I would try to use a glove, to keep it from cutting you. If you really want to go first class, get a sliding hand stop. It distributes the force over a wider area and allows for multiple positions of the hand. I use a hand stop rail, handstop and an adapter for my Swivel Harris BiPod. Cost to have someone install this is about 100.00 for rail, stop and labor. It allows you to shoot with a sling from multiple positions quickly.

The standard Military Leather sling works well, but it is slow to deploy and involves to much movement to get into and out of in a covert location. That is the reason I came up with my sling, that you just click into and out of. Minimal movement and it is quick to get into and out of.

Springfield scopes< I would have to say pass and get something else.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
calif, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 16:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53)

Hey,ChopperI just so happen to find out a few things. I did some investigating and got my hands on a 201form under the name Marc P.Im nice enough not to spell out your whole name even though i should, to let every one out there know what a fraud you realy are.It dosnt say you were in Force Recon as a Sniper,But a squid in the NAVY, but thats not the funny part,It says you were station aboard a sub tender.I now know why you made up that bull sh-t story,If my life was as pitiful as your's I would live in a fantasy world too. Scratch that,If my life was as pitiful as your's I would off my self.So let this be a lesson to all you Tasco-M- loving bullsh-ters watch what you say some one may call you on it.
marc parent <Ronfly@webtv.net>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 18:53:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.200.106)

marc parent, ronfly, webtvguy, whatever...
I suppose you will also inform all of the readers that a 201 file
is public knowledge and that you have permission to state what you
will about someone based on it in a public forum?
hmmmm.... (jump in legal)
and after that scalding (read: whiny/bitchy) statement you posted,
I suppose you want snipercountry to be just for accredited,
dyed-in-the-wool (sorry al o.), pay check drawing, honest to god,
real life snipers who kill people for a living?
I figure it would be awfully lonely those 5 or 10 guys talking to
themselves... also would figure SC hitcounter would be a LOT less
than half a million...
I dont condone bullshaters (hehe b.rogers), but I also dont
condone whining bitchy mud rakers either.
I notice that you didn't give the web YOUR stats (like it even
matters).
me, i'm a wannabe, poser, whatever.
i like to shoot. i like to talk to folks here (even damnyankees).
cant we all just get along... sniff sniff.

buk off the box.

oh, and one more thing, you are whining about people who use
Tasco scopes and your using WebTV to write it....? hahah roflmao

buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Watchinicemeltin, louisiana, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 19:52:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.146.212)

BUK,

Hey, I know of a couple of "Real Snipers", who use the Tasco Tactical scopes on their Savage .308's. They're small PD's, and not much bucks for the custom .308's. These PD Marksmen (Snipers) can shoot MOA or better with this equipment. Not prior military either, just good shooters who believe in what they do. I don't think they got a 201 file either, if it matters.

Later,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 20:25:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.53)

Tactical Intervention Specialists: you guys had me believing you were the real thing for a while there...... then you mentioned wanting to ge the smell of Hoppe's out of your shirt...... impostor!! Real shooters live for that smell! Seriously, tho', good luck with all.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 20:47:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.143.129)

Andre

I have a recoil reducer in my 870 marine magnum. I like it a lot. It makes the gun much more controlable. As with all things there is a cost, it will add weight to the stock.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 21:38:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.145.109)

Matt, I happened live very close to that place (JEwish center) and I have visited it once. Anyway, the problem with the guns is that, because of politicos you don't have them when you need them.
Second, to fullfil the politicos dream you have to ban " all" guns, police included. Othervise we will have Nazi Germany, with Nazi memebers with the guns and Jew in concentration camps. (of course, it is might be the real purpose of anty-gun lobby). My solution would be to permit carry gun for everybody, then for 1 crazy with the gun going to be 1000 normal people able to put this crazy person out of his misery.
HK

HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, ca, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

Just returned from SMTC's Long Range Rifle 1 course of last weekend. Came home to Missouri via northern Georgia where I managed to kill a few more brain cells with an old friend. Storm Mountain is absolutely great. Rod and Kent even made an old varmint like me feel right at home. If you ever have the chance to take any of their courses, DO IT! You will have a blast. There is just something about ringing a steel target at 600 or 700 yds. that gives a great feel of satisfaction. Even got to meet Big Al O. and Tony Y. Nice to be able to put a face with posts on the Roster.

Al O.,
That Blackhawk Pro-Shooters mat retails for $129.95 and wholesales for $78.30. Try www.blackhawkindustries.com if you want to order it direct from them. Enjoyed meeting you and also shooting with your brother Val. Give him my regards.

Tony Y.,
Enjoyed meeting you also. It's probably a good thing the course was only two days long. I'm not sure if the Candlewyck or my liver would have taken much more.

Rod and Kent,
Thanks again guys. You run an A-1 first class operation and I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it. Wish SMTC wasn't so far away.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The windy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:36:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.123)

I have to agree with Buk, can't we all just get a long, gun?

BTW, while stationed aboard a sub tender in the early-mid 80's,
we had a burn-out seal aboard... He might've had a few problems,
but shooting straight wasn't one of them...

should have the bushnell pro-1000 here by tuesday. Will try to put it through the mill in the next couple weeks.

Mark
Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:39:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Guys. lets not get mean to others on here. I have seen it before and it is a stupid as it gets. As to Tascos SSM's I managed a great finish in a Police Sniper Compt. with one. Didn't seem to bother my sub1/2 minute groups and yes I had it on a work rifle for a time. Never felt it was not worthy it is just when I found the best I managed to find the money and get it. Groups are the same by the way.

Ned, very funny lad. JT is my webmaster and one hell of a nice guy. He has never claimed to be anything more and has asked for help from anyone he can. That shows his IQ is way above most. I am slowly teaching him about rifles, Hoppes Bench Rest and Sweets 7.62. The love of the smell takes time. LOL I have to say he is a quick learner, although he needs to relax. Two groups with 168 federal does not show anything JT. Wait until you have about 200 rounds down the tube before you start wondering. It takes that long for some factory guns to settle down.

Now here is something to wet all your taste buds. How about a two week class at Jarretts place/NewMexico, the first two weeks of June 2000. First week is medium rifle and the second heavy rifle(338 Lapua or 50 cal) and the second weeks weapons will be provided. Class will be taught by Jarrett, a Former Special Forces Major and I. You can go to one or both weeks.

I am sure in my haste the English/Grammer Police will have a field day, but before he does I hope he asks himself a question/ Is this the Grammer Duty Post or SC? LOL and hope he either has a sense of humor or is ready for playing in the big leagues.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.Com>
Calif, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 22:47:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.58)

OK guy's here are a couple of quetions for you all pertaining to ammo. Has anyone got practical experience with a) Sellier and Bellot ammo? .223 and .45?? b) how about the British .308 that is out there 1989 production "supposed" to be the "match" ammo that was going to be issued to British snipers during Desert Storm. Looking for "reasonable" priced ammo for "just in case"! The S&B .223 is being advertised in SGN for $3.39 a 20rd box and the Brit .308 @ $89 a 400 rd case. Let me know!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 23:04:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.195)

Snicker - Ed - now come now. Why must one be an imposter just because they dont like the smell of Hopees? Didn't you read the warnign label on the bottle? Here let me get it and quote it back. ahh yes, "Danger - do not overexpose yourself to the fumes of this solvent. Overexposure can be diagnosed by asking the patient if they mind the fumes. Those who answer that they do not mind, have become overexposed. Brain damage is certain if the patient answers that he likes, loves, or is sexually aroused by the fumes." Oh hmmm... uh... Ned you said you loved the smell? Oh oh. Mike - Why I oughta.....You said "Hoppes Bench Rest and Sweets 7.62. The love of the smell takes time. LOL" Whose side ya on ??? I have put enough number 9 down pistols and revolvers to clean 30 miles worth of them... and I still dont think of the damn solvent as perfume like you whackos do :-) :-) As for the groups - yup I know. Just making an observation :P Now that I am done sparring with these two silly people, I have a serious question. Has anyone had any really good luck in cutting foam rubber like the stuff that comes in a Pelican type case? I am doing okay with the straight lines (like for the barrel and such) but I am having a bastard of a time cutting curves (like for the trigger guard).
JT - Webmaster Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Califeinstein, CCCP - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 23:31:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

Does anyone know where I can get a deployment case and day optic case as issued with the Army M24.Just want the cases.
Would also like to hear some comments on the best overall stock and necessities for a sniper rifle intended for strictly mountian environments.
How about a mission packing list for prolonged,"unsupported" unconventional or low intensity if you will, operations in said mountian environment.Including back up weapons and caches.
Something more interesting and informative than bashing the Puma and 201 file, butt sniffers, who have nothing better to do than stir up shit.Would like to hear from everyone. I don't give a damn what your 201 says.Mine says I didn't volenteer for anything , I drank a bunch of beer,and I never want to be that f*$#%^G hot and sweaty again.
Thanks Boys,
Don
Don <tdfarmer@concentric.net>
USA - Friday, August 13, 1999 at 23:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.153)

Sarge;Re S&B ammo.......
I have not shot any .223 or.45 but have shot lots of 9x19 with good success.When this ammo first came available the projectiles appeared to be cupro-nickle jacketed,oil sealed primers and case mouths and packed in 25 round boxes,Very Good ammo.The last few years I've noticed that the jacket has turned to copper and the oil seals are absent.I guess this is commercial grade as opposed to military spec.and is packed 50 rounds to a box.Still shoots good but just doesn't "look" quite so nice.I've also had some S&B 7.62x39 that seemed underpowered and would not reliably cycle a Russian SKS,which is saying something as this rifle will digest almost anything.I have also had S&B 7.62x51 which was corrosive (SURPRISE!!) and grew hair in the bore of a Israeli 98K overnite.Moral of the story is get some ,shoot it through something,and if it works good buy more.

Brit.L2A2 Ball;
Have shot +/- 200 rounds through "Tanker" Garand with no failures to feed/fire.It's clean good looking ammo that shoots about like the Portugese ball of similar vintage(pretty hot)I don't have a chrono so can't say for sure,but I would buy more if Portugese is not available. Oh yea boxes are marked "Data A4/1818" Any of you British fellers out there that can interpret that?

Sure hope I don't have one of them there 201 files somebody might find out I drive a Dodge and bought the runt of the litter :).

Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:03:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.178)

Hoppe's, the smell...... I do stop short of arousal when I'm around it. It's just a Pavlovian thing, I guess-- when I smell Hoppe's, every memory of being around fine guns and fine people, from the days of cleaning the Model 62 Winchester .22 with Dad to sitting around with best friends getting bowling pin guns ready for more on the morrow, comes rushing back. It's the same kind of conditioned response I experience with the taste of beer-- which tells me I'm having a good time-- and the smell of perfume, which tells me I'm having a REALLY good time. I do open the shop doors when using #9BR, though. It doesn't smell as good and I figure if it can do what it does it must have something in it that's bad for me :0).
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:06:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.9)

Michael in DC - Excuse me. What international airport are you talking about that is next to Quantico? I believe all of the airspace around MCCDC is restricted airspace. The only air facility that I am aware of near there is HMX-1. I think that the mortars and Artillery fired in support of TBS has a little higher max ordinant (?) than what you are firing. What range do you usually shoot on at Quantico? We used to shoot .50 cals whenever we wanted at either range 7 or 8. The USMC rifle team regurally fires their .300win mags on Range 4 at WTBn.

Something doesn't sound right.

The Army uses pellecan cases for thier D kit and the day optic case.

Damn spelling sucks today!!!
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:28:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.172)

Sarge,

I never used the S&B .223 or .45, but have shot cases of .40S&W with very good results. My pals have same luck with the 9mm S&B. I have used USA Ball (Winchester) .223's and .308's. These are very good. Also, Hertenberger Green Tip .223 62gr ammo is very accurate out to 500yds. The Hertenberger .308 that was loaded for the Brits in Desert Storm is very good ammo. Headstamp is RG 90. Boxes are marked L1A1 90. I have shot it out to 600yds with okay scores. Do you have the address for Cole Distributing Co. They carry surplus ammo for almost anything, and their prices are good. I will post it here in a bit.

Best Regards,

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 00:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.46)

Sarge: S&B ammo is excellent blasting ammo.

MikeM: How early in the spring are you talking on the Jarrett course? Hell, I will pay the admission price just to see a California copper shiver at altitude in say, early March? :) I suppose you could put socks in those shower sandals you guys use as duty wear...we won't tease you, much.

JT [computer dude] email me, will you? Got some work fer ya.

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:22:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

JT,

Try freezing the foam and then cutting it with a long serrated type knife ( The dollar store or somewhere similar has them for $1.00). That is a trick I got from Zero-Halliburton for the inserts for their cases.

Gooch,

Went to the Keyser Wally World last weekend, mentioned your name at check out and the gals got all moon eyed.....
WHAT GIVES?????????

CANDLEWYK TOMORROW NIGHT? Mrs peteR wants to meet you rapscallions.

CHAO!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG-CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:37:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.42)

Stranger in the mist........

Hey, folks, every day's a holiday, eh??

I apologize to all for the length of my absence, H-S has had me locked up for a few weeks, let me out to work and eat.

MikeM:

Yer plumber is doin' fine, as I have heard the hardware has been. She'll shoot better the more rounds ya sling thru her!! Speaking of sling, she is strung around the 300 win and boy does she look deadly.

mrbullet:

Good to see ya again last week, glad to hear ya did well at the D&L. Congrats friend!!! I will see ya down by the river here this Thursday or Friday, dependin' on when they let me outta my cage!!! No problem showin' your buddy around, just wish we had more time. Next year, I'm navigating to the D&L, heheh!!!!! All weddings are off! LOL. By the way, Hoffman was out today, getting some loads ready. That beer is gonna taste mighty fine!

I'll let a little newsflash out, the 6.5 x 284 has been taken into deep consideration at H-S. Any of youse guys after one of these hot rods need to harrass Janet, day after day, I can see us building one in the near future, eh Pat!!!!

You guys keep it interesting, I'll catch ya later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:43:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.9.107)

Hey, any of you gents out there messing with the Mk4-M3/.300 WM cam combination. You know, the 220 gr doing 2650 fps. How is it working for you?
dan <danr@acnet.net>
s.texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 01:56:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.76.33.156)

Sarge-
I have used bunches of the S&B in 9x19. Fired just fine through the glock, course that will feed anything i give it. Ran some through my uncles Uzi carbine (semi auto for all you antigun lurkers), and it did not like it at all. about half of it did not fire. Took the ones that would not fire in the uzi, nd fed em into the glock, and they shot fine. dunno, you all can make guesses at that one.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
newcarisnice, maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 02:26:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.15)

JT,
An electric carving knife works wonders on foam rubber.
It cuts clean, straight, and curves arent a problem.
I have a Browning travel vault and that's what they suggested.
Make an outline using chalk, then come inside the lines 1/4" for the cut. Worked great for me.

Hope this helps
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 04:23:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.193.116.174)

After a long spell incommunicado, I do the MacA thing.

And of course, immediately seek help. My unit has had a sudden windfall of cash, and my self appointed duty is to grab as much of it as possible for my platoon. I need NSN's for the following items:

1) G-suit kits.
2) Scope mounts for the M-21/14. We got PVS-10's in so we want to put the M3A's on the semi's. This may be a Dept. Navy number. Failing that, who makes the best mount out there that does business with the military.
3) Any commo freaks out there? Looking for a small hand held radio compatible with SINCGARS SC freqs (30-80mhz), with earpiece and throat mike options, and runs on either mil std or AA bats, with 3km range. Ideally unit cost would be below $500. Can be civilian purchase, preferably a company that does business with the military.

Returning to the states next month, next station , Ft. Drum. Try to get down to the Mountain in the spring (should have my rifle by then).

Back to surfing the monsoon on the lovely Highly Militarized Zone.

Ed Engler <Ed_Engler@softhome.net>
CP GReaves, ROK - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 04:34:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.77.211.228)

Quickbow: Try the norinco chinasports ammo in the Uzi. Works good and can be found cheap. Or so I hear.
nuh uh <AnonymousWhenI@ReferTo.Uzis>
ParanoidBoutUziTalk, Trinidad and Tobago - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 04:51:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.27)

Henry K, i couldn't agree more, and am a huge fan of concealed carry (not allowed in my state). When Columbine was the big thing, Jesse Ventura (who is under Ross Perot's party, yet is very libertarian in his ways) was asked what should've been done to prevent such.. he replied something like: "I just wish there were teachers on the inside there who carried, then there would be a lot less dead." This is the kind of politicians we need, people who think in real world situations, not politicians looking for some utopian society.

Sarge i can't help but wonder, your email says garryn, is that perhaps gary north?

Bortz out
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 06:29:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.115.63.28)

Ed:
I do avionics work at FT. Rucker. I might be wrong, but, I would think that SINCGARS radios were military only. At any rate, they would run more than $500 per unit.

Paul
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 08:28:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.27.167)

History Channel last night. Had special on Green Berets. Plaster was one of the talkers. Was talking about the SOG groups. Said that they NEVER carried US made weapons or any ID. The very next segment showed a group of SOG dudes jumping out of a chopper and hauling ass into the jungle.
All of them had M16's. Hummmmm! Did the History channel screw up or is Plaster for real?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 10:33:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.211)

HK; It would be a much "kinder and gentler America" if everyone was armed I am totally confinced. Folk would treat each other with the respect another human deserves. There would be fewer Free Way and drive by shootings. Who would rob a 7-11 if everyone in there packed a Colt? Who would shoot up a school if the teacher was packin a Glock?
Who would stalk a woman they knew was armed?
Sarge; Seller&Belloit is reliable and shoots about 1.5 in just fair AR. It seems to shuck real nicely due to it's metal case and no misfired were ever noted. Tested the .223 only.
Bolt ;I assure you that many Green Berrets have carried many M-16
s. But under certain Covert operations by SOG that might be true. There was a rumor once that SOG groups could choose any weapon they wanted for all their operations. I don't think that ever was the case with standard SOB Green Berrets. SEALS I believe have some kind of weapons choices but I think that might be based on consensis more than each individual choice. The Major... I won't pass judgment on. I think he has studied more Snipers than actually been one but It is very common for the media to edit something into a totally different meansing and quote out of context. 2 days ago CNN reported that the NRA was giving schools on how to make your Calif banned weapon legal again. While it was going on they showed someone from a different organization "Gun Owners of America" talking about taking the handguard off a AR-15. The guy was just explaining the fallacy of the law. It was a total misstatement.
They don't give a hoot as long as it serves their agenda or maked a story. Surely there is someone out there that can enter this with more expertise. We have friends in low places!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 11:46:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Gooch: Quantico and .50 Cals -

I inquired within the shooting club about shooting .50's - I received that same answer. They have to call Dulles and coordinate the shoot times. Yeh - I know - sounds abit like overkill - but that's not the first time I've heard that.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 13:05:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

"If I were the King",

I think to get an adult Drivers License in ANY state, you should have to have current CPR and First Aid certifications,and Concealed Weapon certification in addition to demonstration of driving skills,
and a DUTY TO RESPOND requirement

or you don't drive!

might scare some LEO'S, but none of this crap at schools, daycares, family diners, and the workplace would occur. Like Ray Bradbury said "An Armed society, is a polite society"

The deck would be completely stacked against the wackos and criminals.

Oh use a firearms in the commission of a felony/ or attempted felony and deep fry in crisco oil on nationwide TV with live commentary.....

later gaters!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 13:15:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.57)

What's the scoop on the newer, longer range laser range finders? Which is the best? Tasco? Simmons? Bushnell? I had Bushnell 400 but it was very disappointing after 300 yds. Any suggestion? Ding@stev.net
Ding <ding@stev.net>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 13:33:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.169.139.29)

Ok guys here's my question(s) for you.

I am mounting a scope on my SA NM M1A using MWG 1" rings and a BPT scope mount. Are there any particular "tricks" or things I should be aware of before I start? Is there anyway to guestimate how to apply 30 inch pounds or 65 pound inch of torque? (I don't have a torque wrench)Will lapping the rings benefit this setup? Any advise would be greatly appreciated as this will be the first time I have ever mounted a scope before. Or should I just find a reputable gun smith with the proper tools and let him do it?

Thanks for your time,
Fred
FNG <glock96@hotmail.com>
TEXAS, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 15:53:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.10.146.29)

BRogers: GOA seems to be a good outfit, and Pratt is at least an order of magnitude sharper on real gun issues than the actor, imho. One problem is the NRA and outfits like it get on TV and all of a sudden they are lecturing on social issues. Getting trapped into questions like "well, how do we solve the gun violence in America" is not where any of these outfits need to be. The media is a savvy adversary...I believe it was Jefferson who supposedly said, in effect, he who frames the issue wins the debate.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 16:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

All: M1 book. Awhile back, someone on here was looking for the TM on the m1, m1c, m1d sniper rifle. I picked up one at a local gun show the other day. If you or anyone wants it - feel free to email me privately. Cost ya $5.00 + postage - or wait till Carlos II shoot.

Ken
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 19:28:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.84.196.39)

Another big media screw up. It has been now released that the gun used in the LA day care was a glock 9mm. The initial reports of an "ASSAULT WEAPON" or "SUB-MACHINE GUN", were entirely media generated based off of a report of " In excess of 15 cases found, possible as many as 20." The most accurate report of the weapon police got from witnesses was it was a black, hi-capacity handgun. The media blew this whole thing into the assault rifle/sub-machinegun arena. This, it has been speculated, is to garner local and national support for the new law they just passed. Pretty cheap shot on the media's part if you ask me. On a side note, anyone got experince with pmp 9mm ammo? Marius maybe, it comes from your corner of the world.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
1800IHATEMEDIA, Maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 19:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Another day at the range! Just can't discuss it :(

But, will tell you this, if I could get that brand spanking new Colt Elite to shoot a 1000 yards, youins wood bee in treble! Started breaking in today. 1st shot at 25 yards to adjust. Next 3 shots at 100 covered with a dime. Trigger needs lightening up a little.

Maybe it's not my sorry shooting afterall!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 20:38:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.27)

Bruce: I never have agreed with their policy of being critical of LE in the gun law area. Bound to bite us all sooner or later!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 21:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Gooch,

Thank you for your response my post.

Anytime anyone wants to shoot a rifle with a caliber over 308 they have to alert Dulles Intl Airport that we are firing large caliber weapons, the fear is because if the rifle is mis aimed a 338 Lapua or 50BMG could act as artillery on Dulless Intl. They have some kind of fear that Quantico is gonna start dropping planes like flies, Quantico just happens to be in the flight path of one of the busiest runway out here at Dulles, imagine their fear as nowing that there are shooters out there that could if everything went wrong shoot a airplane out of the sky on takeoff/landing! That is why we need ta call 24 hours in advance to schedule it, they even want to bump the prearranged time up to a week, because they are supposedly not giving the airport enough time to close that runway down and divert traffic!

I have headed out to QMB serveral times and 2 of the 5 times I have headed out there I showed up with a 338 Lapua and a 50BMG and they said that the schedule was cancelled because of the airport.
A little behind the scenes note for you even during military exercises the runway is shut down, they contact the airport prior to range day and set the schedule! Most people never find out about that until they try to bring long guns out there!

On any range uantico has (rifle ranges of course) you can fire UP TO 7.62 NATO, meaning that you can shoot a 300 Win Mag no problem, correct me if i am wrong Ken, but ranges 7 and 8 have been closed to those that are not using the range for OFFICIAL USE!

Still looking for a range to shoot at, right now I have my commander at work contact QMB(Qunatico Marine Base) to set times for shooting, and that can be a hassle.

If anyone knows of a better way to get through to QMB and get a shooting time scheduled please let me know, and if there are any shooters in the area (within 100 miles)email me and we can down a couple and send some lead downrange.

Thanks alot!

Michael OUT!
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washigton, DC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 21:59:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.70.100)

TO ALL:

Sorry all for the bad spelling.
Been a really long day that does not want to end.

Look forward to any responses that come of my post!

Michael OUT!
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 22:08:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.70.100)

On the lzarge cal. range issue (338, 50bmg ect..)

In the DC area, you could try Fort Meade, tehy used to let the Mryland machingun club come in and shoot whenever they liked, so long as no official exercise was happening. Also, Check with Fort A.P. Hill, they practice live ordinance and whatnot there, I doubt that a few big bore rifles is gonna make a diff. It is a bit more of a haul, but hey. Oh, and expect that if you go to Meade, you will be thoroughly checked out, it is also the headquarters for the NSA.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
jessieventuraforprez, maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 22:11:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

QuickBow,

They do not allow any automatic weapons there anymore :(
You cannot shoot anything over .30 cal, from the brochure i am reading, that was handed to me like 5 minutes ago.

The only people out there that can shoot big bore is LE and Military LE, and comparable units, I nave some friends in the Bureau that I will see if they will sponsor me to shoot while they are out there.

Unless i can get the documentation from my unit saying that we are a LE based unit. Not sure though.

Thanks for the warning about being checked out, I think i will be ok seeming as I work there 3 days a week(at NSA HQ) and at NOC-P the rest of it, but thank you for the warning,(looking out for your buddies)!

And by the way, you got mail check your email account.

Any questions feel free to email me!

Michael OUT!
Michael <michael96d83@hotmail.com>
Washington, DC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 22:43:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.70.100)

Michael-
That's actually sad to hear about Meade. Was one of the only places those guys had to go and get together in any numbers. Maybe also Patuxant (sp?) naval surface weapons testing center. Dunno but it's worth a shot for ya.

To all who answered my question on snipers and handgun training thanx. Almost surprising, seems most have very little, I would have guessed the opposite.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Rain swept through, Maryland, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 23:07:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.227.43.14)

Question: What is a picatinny (sp?) rail? What is it for?

Thanks in advance.

Semper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Finally Leaving, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 1999 at 23:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Marius,

Thanks so much for the reply, professor. I had no idea of how to arrive at this solution. In fact, the formula I had years ago must have been wrong because it was no where near as thorough as this. I have saved the procedure for future use.

Now. One more question: How can you calculate the effective reduction of recoil that is derived from a muzzle brake? Can it be done?

Just thought I'd inspire a few more headaches.

Thanks!

SEmper Fi!
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Headed For, PA, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 00:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.47)

Roger,

Here is what little info I have on the picatinney rail. I hope you guys will forgive me if I'm wrong, most of this is just personal observation.
"The picatinney rail is an extended length, one-piece, Weaver style optics mounting base. It has a cross slot (for the ring's recoil bolt) spaced every 3/4 - 1 1/4 inches along it's length. This serves to allow placement of the scope/sight/whatever to more closely fit the needs of the individual shooter. Surely you have encountered a rifle whose scope was either too close to your eye or too far forward.
The picatinney rail almost completely eliminates this. A popular option for these rails is to taper their height from front to rear. This mounts the scope at a very slight angle (about 15 - 20 MOA, I think), allowing you to use all or most of a scope's elevation adjustment to compensate for bullet drop at extreme ranges."

WHEW! Hey guys, was Picatinney Arsenal involved in the development of this set-up?

Is anyone from the Ashville, NC area? I have recieved a job offer from there and would like some intel. email me.

Out.

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
outback, KY, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 02:25:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.215.71.29)

Bruce; If you can understand that post I made about the NRA and LE please explain it to me! I must have let my sugar get low! Anyway ditto on your post just before it! Guess I was trying to say they (WE as in We the People) should take care of the 2nd Ammendment and let LE do it's job within the Consitutional boundries.
OK but gosh lets spend the memberships money on Civilian programs and protecting the "right to bear" Yep, I know there's two branches up there guys and I give to both of them. My heart is there and Chuck is my friend and yours but I would like to direct them away from trying to influence Criminal law and concentrate on The right to carry and local restrictive and unconsitutional laws. (Not that they don't do that to a large degree!) I encourage LE to practice on the Range here and they get a special deal. But I don't push them to enforce beyond what they think they should. They will get there soon enough!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 04:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

John,
Let me add a little to your Picatinny description. The Weaver bases are slightly narrower. At least to my experience of making a set of rings to fit Colt's flattop (Picatinny) I wouldn't know if they are supposed to be that way, or if their bases have "drifted" away from the military spec. The Picatinny specification controls the spacing and size of the cross slots too. I have Weaver™ and Weaver types that have a variety of cross slot styles. Rounded, square, deep, shallow, etc. One time I wrote to Picatinny and attempted to get information on the specification, but was unsuccessful.

What we call the Picatinny base was first used on the Lewis machine gun. This was told to me by a credible source on another list.

http://w3.pica.army.mil/picatinny/Default.asp

Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 08:49:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.45.192.98)

Paul M.-
Yeah, I know they are Mil only , but that ain't a problem, 'cause I am as well. The lightweight SINCGARS run around $3K. I only need single channel capability in the SINCGARS range, not the FH/CRYPTO.

Gooch, Rick, lurking AD types, I need those NSN's bad. The money is slipping away.

SCOUT/SNIPERS OUT!!!
Ed <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 13:10:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.77.211.216)

Hi all, can someone tell me the difference between Leupold's M1 and M3 designations?

Thanks-
Brian
Brian <brianbusch@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 13:36:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.148.140.21)

Watched Navy Seals program on Grenada last night. They had a Seal sniper with a SKS and fiberforce stock. What the HELL was that about? Is this true or was it typical TV?
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 14:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

Boltser,

I saw a couple episodes of the SEALS THANG too, after I got back from my trip to Keyser.I just got a glance, but I do believe that was "The Master Sniper" shooting it too.

Al O.
I think the waitress at Francescos with the tattoo'ed necklace liked you, or was it Stu? or Depity? or was it brother of Depity "The elder" or "The younger"?
I know, It weren't me, Mrs. peteR made me behave ;-)

Stu,
Will you ever be the same after that traumatic epicurean experience on Piedmont Street, of Keyser, West By-Gawd VA.?

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 14:32:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.49)

To "RonFly": I tried calling you out in a private e-mail regarding your supposed knowledge about my past, but alas, your supposed e-mail address is defunct. So, I'll stoop to your level and do it in public.
I suppose you think you're one investigating mother******. Wow, I'm impressed. You did get right the part about the Navy, and the tender. But, as I attempted to explain in an e-mail, you seem to have only about 8% of my military record. Apparently you lack the juice to find out all my vitals. Before you attempt sh*t on someone, get all your facts straight. Oh yeah, convenient that you hide behind the anonymity of the net - Care to state your name, rank, vitals???
-Chopper
Chopper <Chopper124@aol.com>
CT, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 15:47:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.52)

Does anyone have an opinion on Sightron optics made in North Carolina. At a recent show I saw them on a number of expensive custom firearms. If the targets were ligitimate a 338 Win Mag was almost in the same hole at 100m . They also weren't on the moon price wise...Thanks
Russ Egan <DRNRA@aol.com>
Williamsburg, Va., USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 16:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.38)

BRogers: Understood, and agree. I have found the LE lot to be a good one, 99% of the time. It is only when MP5's are drawn and doors kicked in...that I shake my head.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 18:02:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Sorry if this is irrelevant but I don't know where else to ask. I am looking for a shooting partner in the Portland, Oregon area.

Thanks and watch out, those damn monkeys will bite ya!
TR <WITNES2012@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 18:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.214)

Gents,
I have a question pertaining to firearm finishes. I want to refinish my Springfield 1911 and am having a hard time deciding which finish to chose. I've been looking at Roguard, NP3, Bearcoat, Wilson's Armor-tuff, and Black "T". I know Clylinder and Slide does a combo of NP3 on the innards and Roguard on the exterior. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of these finishes or input on why any one is better than any other. Previously I've gotten lots of help from you guys about breaking in my Rem 700 Police so I thought I'd once again post a question on what is hands-down the best shooting website. Now I know this isn't "1911 contry" or "Pistolero country", but I thought this might apply to everyone. Feel free to e-mail or post any replies, I really need some help deciding. Later.
Rich <RS1441@aol.com>
Parched in Baltimore, MD, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 18:52:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.184)

TR, check your E-mail.
Jim <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 20:04:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.220.131.78)

Jeff Babineau and any others interested in Choate accessory rail fix which will still allow QD feature to function E-mail for details.This cost's $8.00 is very secure and uses high quality fastener.I would post this info but don't need any more "Your stock sucks,and so does your rifle,and your scope.....:) ."

Working with what I got
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 20:11:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.207)

Ding,

I have a website with reviews and info on most of the rangefinders at Jesse's Hunting Page and Gear Review
spectr17 <spectr17@netscape.net>
Smoggy and hot , southern kaliforny, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 20:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.179.141.3)

RonFly & Chopper -OK guys play nice or take it off the Roster! End of THAT discussion!
Everyone that has sent comments on the S&B ammo - THANKS
Guys have I got a story for you!!
Went P'dog hunting, well started to, this AM and a "elderly" read old bag, came riding along on her bicycle and saw my son and I setting up. She came off the road were we where and asked what we where doing. When I told her we where going to shoot P'dogs she went BALLISTIC! Ranting and raving about the ecology and how "bad" an example I was setting for my son, who was laughing at her the entire time, and on and on and on. Guys this was on STATE land!! P'dogs here are VARMIT no permit or license required! She was actually yelling and screaming TO THE P'DOG's to get back in there burrows!!! Throwing stones - all of 10 to 15 yards, nearest dog was probably 100yds. trying to scare them off! When I did pop one she called me everything in the book BUT a gentlemen said she was going home to get her car and sit there all day so we could not shoot! Well she did leave and we didn't see anymore dog's, this IS a SMALL town 100 max, so we packed up and left. WELL on the way in we see a Animal Control Officer whom SHE had run into and ranting and raving at him so he called a Deputy! She had left when I pulled up and started to talk with the ACO and the Deputy! Well the Deputy about laughed his head off and even told me HE had popped his share of P'dogs at exactly the same spot! I NEVER figured this type of thing would happen trying to shoot VARMITS but - hell guys this is getting ridiculous!!
Just thought you'll might want a good laugh!! Now I WILL make it a point to hunt that town every chance I get!!!

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 21:32:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.189)

News Flash Semi auto Pistols are now considered assault pistols. Also on more of our supposed second amendment privlages we according to the Supreme court do not have the right to Bare arms. I believe that was made in the 1930s. Also Check out original Crime bill/Brady bill, called for a ban on all repeating fire arms. That means anything that can shoot more than one shot before being reloaded, Another point of Interest is Smith and Wesson is pulling hard for cheap gun bans, like they make a quality pistol.Christ the only thing Id use a S&W for is to stuff it down the bad guys throat so he chokes to death.
Would also be good for you guys to check out UN site, you have to do some digging but in there "agenda" they call for the ban of all weopons except for UN "peacekeepers" also they call for one education one language one currency all that jazz, right on there site.

Oh well just me being grim again.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Sunday, August 15, 1999 at 21:39:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.185.72)

Another slightly off-subject post -

I'm wanting some input on spotting scopes. Has probably been discussed in detail before, so maybe I missed it, but I'm hoping some of you guys can help steer me in the right direction on making a purchase. Naturally, I'd like to have the best quality spotting scope I can get - but money WILL be a major factor in the selection. Just looking for something nice that I can look at my targets after shooting out to maybe 500 yards or so. Is there anything out there that can be had in the $200-$300 range that is really worth looking at (or through!)???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.27.42.234)

Hey Sarge,

Aww, I couldn't do it. I was going to say something about telling her about bubonic plague and prairy dogs next time she shows up, but what the heck. Some people you can't tell anything. Maybe during her crusade to protect and defend the little rats she will find out firsthand.

Shoot Straight!

Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jacksonville, FL, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:15:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

A little while back someone was looking for a photo of McMillans' new A4 stock. I just found it - it will be the first photo on the link below....

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/tactical/tac.htm

Hope it helps...

Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

Diamond Dallas Paige from WCW wrastling is on TNT using a
Choate/Plaster ULTIMATE SNIPER STOCKed rifle to hunt down the
presidents daughter....

Hmm.... in one of those under the breath lines, I could swear I
heard him say:

"this stock sure is pretty, but damn its heavy and all the guys
are gonna laugh at me..."*

buk out

*blathering attempt at humor not ment to offend anyone with mentioned
product.

buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
LookinforaMastaSnipa-in, Louisiana, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 00:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.144.85)

Is anyone aware of a commercial equivalent of the M49 spotting scope?

john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
over yonder, KY, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 01:32:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.77.68.168)

Buk:
Didja notice his Tasco and he clean missed ol'Mariel on that first shot.But due to the high mass of that there stock his follow up was right quick.If he woulda known his cold bore shot he wouldn't have missed that first.....:0.
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 02:10:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.179)

Gary: Re spotting scopes.
I have a few cheap spotting scopes. I have a WW2 B&L draw tube spotting scope that I like. I paid 50 bucks for it. It is adequate to see bullet holes in a target at 300 yards as long as the target has a blue sky background. At Camp Perry the targets are about 7 feet in the air and there is nothing but sky behind the targets. If the targets were on the side of a hill seeing bullet holes would be much more difficult. Just about any cheap scope can be used to see bullet holes up to 200 yards in normal conditions. I have a bushnell sentry 20x that is also adequate for this purpose. I know of no scope that will spot bullet holes in a paper target at 500 yards. The biggest limiting factor of the use of spotting scopes is the atmosphere that you are trying to look thru to the target. More power than about 25x is of very little value because things like mirage scrub the image of the target of much detail. I have a Russian draw tube scope that has suprisingly good optics but will not focus on a target any closer than 75 yards. Cost was $35 bucks. My best scope is a Champions Choice model 22x C-60 I paid $200 for it. One of the best scopes that you can buy is a Kowa. I have looked thru several models of these and I admit that they are nice. The best feature of the Kowas are that they are available with long eye relief. If you wear glasses this is almost a must have feature. The cheapest Kowa with the long eye relief eyepiece is the TS-612 model. It will run you about 450 bucks with the 25x long eye relief eyepiece. A normal eye relief eyepiece is about 70 bucks cheaper.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 02:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

.308 Glaser Safety Slugs-- Shot a handful of these (well, that's all I could afford) at the range the other day, thought some of youse might be interested in the results. To my surprise, I found that they shoot to the same POI at 100 yards as military ball. They are not tackdrivers but I got 4 into a 2 1/2" or so group. Noise and recoil, again to my surprise, were not noticeably different. I did take a prairie dog with one at 35 or so yards a couple months back, no superspectaular results, but that's not much of a target. I currently have the "contract" on wood chucks at the local landfill (to keep them from burrowing through the liner-- major prob if they do), I'll see if I can nail one or two with Glasers and report. Currently using an AR-15 in .17/.223 to keep the noise and ricochet potential to a min but a couple .308's shouldn't hurt.

I'm sure it's been covered here many times, but any good, just-short-of-max loads for .308 (VSSF) with Varget, with Sierra 155, 168, 175, and 190's would be appreciated. Could not get this rifle to group with Hornady 168 BTHP moly coateds and BLC(2), using CCI BR primers. Please Email 'em...... Thanks!
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 03:05:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.136.38)

Partison:
I have a "junk" S&W 686 .357 that i sure wouldn't want someone aiming at my head at 150 yrds. I'm sure they have good and bad like most manufacturers. Maybe I just got lucky with mine.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Ks, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 03:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.96.14.96)

Michael - Typical USMC brain fart if they think .300 win mag has a shorter max range than 7.62 NATO. Hell, tell them its a .308 and fire away.

Ed - I used to have a copy of the Benning POI and it had the NSN's for the ghillie kit in it but no can find. If you can get on a DSN line and contact SOTIC at Bragg I'm sure they have all of that info.
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 04:08:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)

Sarge,

Next time take the video camera with you. You can show all your buds what an animal rights whacko looks like. Yeah, my kid thinks all these whackos are nuts too.

Keep up the good work,
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 12:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.78)

Sarge peers from his hide, looking for Grannies....... LMAO!, LMAO!

Did you check for any "hunter harrassment" type laws or ordinances in your area. I think you should have brought her some to take home and bury "decently" in her pet cemetary. Heck even put them in her back pack for her.......

"WWF Master Snipers" - TeeVeeSNIPERSEALS carrying SKS's with Choate stocks & Bushnell scopes,- whats next - Gwynneth Paltrow on DELTA FORCE? Ben Stein "Stevie Segall'ing" the evil prairie dawg hunters?
Thats why my paw dun calls it "The Idiot BOX" I rekon.

Ned,
Why do you need "just-short-of-max loads for .308 (VSSF) with Varget, with Sierra 155, 168, 175, and 190's would be appreciated". They don't shoot any better than lighter charges, and you risk problems in an unknown rifle.

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 12:57:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.82)

Pete R- OK, let's say just short of, short of max. I know what you're saying, that's why I'm not wanting to start out with somebody's max. Whatever comes in, I'll work up to it anyway. Thanks for the concern.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 14:49:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.142.111)

Ned,

Try a start load of of 43.5 grains with NEW commercial cases and Federal match primers.
I have found (for me) that 44.0 grains works exceptionally well with weights up to 178 gr. and have tooted that horn enough for now.
RIGHT GUYS????

Hey Sarge?, Sarge?

C'mon out, Grannies gone.............. LMAO!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 15:16:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.187)

Partison;

Where did you find this info that S&W was supporting a ban on cheap handguns????? I would like to read that!!!!! As for S&W quality, I have owned well in excess of 100 S&W's, I used to collect them, and I still own quite a few of them and I have not had a bad one. I used to shoot silhouettes with them and I don't think that I would have to shove one down any bad guys throat to do away with him. Have you ever owned a S&W???? The one I shoot most now is a S&W 6906 and it has been shot more than a 1000 rounds without one failure and I have not used any ball ammo in it. I now use Win Black Talon for serious social occasions but I practice with hand loads with Sierra HP bullets. This S&W and all other auto S&W's I have seen will feed empty cases, something you cannot get any other auto that I know of to do!!!
I will get off of my soap box now but I still would like to know where you got your info about S&W supporting a ban on cheap handguns and is it reliable info.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 16:40:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.66.142)

Ned, Overall length can be your problem with bad groups. Many ways are available to check to see the distance to the throat/lands. If I am loading for a factory Remington I seat just a about 10 thousands off the lands. This has shown the biggest improvement in Remington Rifles. With this I took a PSS in 300 Win Mag and it went from 2moa groups to 1/2 to 3/4 moa. Cut all cases to length, debur the flash hole and load a slower powder such as Varget or 4064. I have not had good luck withh CCI Promers. I use Remington Standard or Federal BR. I hope this helps

SxW Weapons being junk. I didn't know this and apparently neither do any of the ones our department has used. I had a 645 that went over 20,000 rounds without a single malfunction. A 4506 that went 10,000 rounds clean. I changed to a HxK 45 a few years ago because it holds 13 rounds instead of 8. I miss the sear reset of the SxW(The best DA reset in the business) but not the long first trigger pull. Nothing wrong with SxW, they are just not the current rage in the Peterson Publishing World.

Undude/Mike
MikeM <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 17:03:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.27)

JT-

For cutting foam rubber, if you have access to one, try using a scroll-saw with possibly a #5 blade. I use the saw mainly for wood-working, but you would be amazed at what the sucker will cut with the right blade and proper speed.
Dan A. <damish@velocity.net>
Erie, PA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:22:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.31.4.229)

To quickbow. Media wasn't wrong about that crazy guy. He shot JCC with Uzi (chinese copy). Lucky for everebody it wasn't something better --- he was just "spraying". The postal guy was killed with Glock -- 5 rounds.
I have question. In Washington state is it permissible to carry?
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
LA, ca, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:23:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

Pete R, Mike M and Mike S, thanks for the loads and advice. Mike M, these were .010 off the lands like you said. They were unfired cases, maybe that was a contributor. I tried them .010 short of lands and mag-length, they did group just a tad better seated out. I have some .308 cases marked as 7mm BR that use small primers, got them from a benchrester, some of my better groups have been with these and plain-Jane WW small rifle primers and 760 powder. I am anxious to try the Varget though, the way you guys rave about it. Looks like it won't meter worth a damn though! I was at Camp Perry on 8/6 and had my hands on some Berger VLDs and LTBs (Length Tolerant Bullet) but put them down in a hurry when the guy rung them up at $27/100. I really need to find a magazine-able load that'll shoot in this dang thing. I have had sub MOA out to 200, with A-Max bullets seated long. What I really want to do is teach it to shoot mag-length rounds at say 85% of it's ultimate, long-seated potential. Thanks again......
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:24:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.143.5)

Well,
I'm off for a week I actually have to do some work. I'll miss most of you. Thanks Sarge for addressing potetitial wasted space. I hope nobody has to play "I'm tougher than you" while I'm gone because I really enjoy catching up when I get back. Remember one very important thing If you are good at something you won't have to tell anyone. The people that you "outdo" will tell everyone. Now I'm off to try and find someone that I can "outdo" at something. Have a good week everyone. Maybe I'll see you at Smith Rock.

PS Hello Crapton!!!!***#$ 965743345
Frank <kubikari@goplay.com>
cows bay, orygun, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.131.80.22)

Recoil Pad Query:

Has anyone has installed a Pachmayr Pre-fit recoil pad on a Remington 700 PSS (H-S Precision stock)? If so, kindly advise your level of satisfaction with the installation procedure and reduction in felt recoil.

Thanks in advance..
Curious George <cg@ibm.net>
Emerald City, WA, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 18:59:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.13.226.16)

Jr,
When will you be down here?? Where will you be staying?? I have a picnic to go to on Friday evening but other than that should be free to drink a few cold ones. The team that won the shoot in Wyoming was using a 6.5x284 very impressive the way it hits steel.

Mike M,
I won one of H&Ss new tactical stocks in Wyoming and your right about it. Its a very nice stock indeed and very comfortable. My kid already has his eye on it and is trying to deal me out of it(HA)

Bruce,
You will be happy to know that I actually milled two targets at the D&L shoot and I even hit one at 700+ using the Mil Dot Master!!! So it workd great and was my constant companion all the way through the shoot. It gave me a great feeling to know I didn't have to rely on the lazer for everthing.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 19:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

JRice: I haven't heard that S&W is agreeing to either stop production, or ban, small / cheap pistols, but it would not surprise me. Can't speak for the Brit's, but there is more backdooring going on in the industry now than at a 40 cousin pig-pickin' in Carolina.

S&W [a division of Britain's Tomkins] has been in the news of late due to its former vice-president for marketing, Robert Hass, claiming that execs could have easily stemmed the underground distribution of guns in cities. Needless to say, subpoenas are common around his house.

Don't be surprised when it is finally aired that more than one US gunmaker has crawled into the sack with those who use the word ban in every sentence...again. Oh, by the way, Happy 50th Aniv...Bill.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 19:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Hk, You can get a cc permit in WA state. Dosen't matter if you are a resident of the state or not.
Mike <Mikeroyexc@aol.com>
big state of, MT, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 22:29:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.84)

I have some friends that just got back from SMTC, and one sent me this note... which I consider one of the best recomendations for a course I've seen yet...

"Pablito... I dressed for Rain, got sunburnt. There were no course materials, no flashy presentations and no million dollar electronic gizmos.
The training is straightforward and practical. They are clear about what they want, and if you cannot perform as a professional, you are free to leave.
Show up late, they leave you behind. Forget to bring lunch, you don't eat. There is nothing hostile about the methods, in fact it is very cordial; they just don't have any patience for people who are not there to work."
..."G.M."

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:10:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.27)

Well, now i understand why Bufford went to California. He didn't want to risk his hide in Washington state.
Anyway, have anybody evaluate the D-2 Stalker kit, which could be found in US Cavalry? Is it good or it is piece of $@%%%t.
Thanks.
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, ca, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:27:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

Hey!!!
I haven't been here for a while! I have a Savage 10FP in .308 now Yeah, yeah, yeah, i know its a cheap rifle, but it still shoots sub 1/2 moa. However, it holds four in the mag and one in the chamber, If i put four in the mag, then the top cartridge won't chamber after i fire the one in the chamber, I have to kinda jiggle it around a bit and poke it into the chamber, which sorta stinks. . .
Another thing about G-suits is what is the best way to attach the burlap strips to the netting?? Trying to decide between tying the burlap in a knot or using string to tie it on. . .

dan

Dan Gleeson <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
an insignificant dot not even on the map, DE, USA - Monday, August 16, 1999 at 23:43:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.0.82.230)

I know its political, but it's pertinate to everybody.

Janet Reno on 12 AUG 99 at a press conference.

Q Ms. Reno, what's your feeling about the Second Amendment? Do you subscribe to the collective rights theory or the individual rights theory of the Second Amendment? Is it a well-regulated militia that should have guns or every individual should have guns?

ATTY GEN. RENO: As I have said, I don't think it ensures to every individual the right to bear arms.

For Info
Roger
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, Fl, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 00:25:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.77.130.120)

Janet; Let's see now. We have a society with murder in the streets on the highways and burgulars attacking our homes. Gangs and thugs are everywhere and women are being raped and attacked in the Walmart parking lot. Senior Citizens are being robbed and cheated. There are crazed killers in the schools, daycare centers. finanacial institutions and brokerages not to mention the workplace post office fast food joints, and on the freeway. There's a stupid computer bug is about to turn out the lights while the Skin head Nazi's are threatening chemical and biological warfare and you think our salvation is to turn in our guns to the UN troops your planning to send here on a peace keeping mission? Tell your other brother Slick and Shummer to come back when I'm in a better mood!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 02:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

CHeck this out guys one of our former master snipers on this site is confusing other web sites now. Who can guess who it is?

"Your query is one that i thought about a while back. When i was developing all of the corrections for .50 caliber sniper rifles; including corrections for barometric pressure, air temperature, ammo temp, spin drift, slant angle and combinations of the above, I wondered that very question.

Consulting Artillery Circular "M" I pulled up the old formula that taught the naval gunnery officers of the time to compensate for the earths rotation. They had to deal with high angle fire and flight time in minutes and seconds vs. milliseconds and full seconds up to 4-6 seconds.

Using their formula and the Mark 211, MOD-0 round at a velocity of 2840 fps. I plotted a shot firing at the equator due north for a range of 1500 meters. The major factor is the flight time vs. the decay time of the earth's rotation and the difference between the two.

The short version is you're right..... althought that would certainly start a ration of #$*& at another site. At 1500 meters, the "decay" is about 9.76 inches. That's about a .50 MOA correction to the East.

It's a very difficult and technical subject, so much so that most ignore it and even more scoff at it."

Hmmmm....

gooch <pteoo791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 03:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

CHeck out this USMC y2k web site. To be paranoid or not to be paranoid.

http://www.usmc.mil/y2k
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 03:41:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

Whoa... there's a couple of problems with that question and response regarding Ms. Reno.

First, the question was invalid, because it's utilizing "militia" as a substitute for the national guard, not as "every able-bodied and able-bodied man and woman between the ages of eighteen to what ever age is they remain competent and able, not convicted of a felony" (how 'bout that for a modern "politically correct" version, being unbiased towards gender and legal age!)

2nd: Overlooking that, there's still those qualifications to the statement... minors, felons, and the mentally incompetent. She's right, she doesn't support the right for "every individual" to bear arms... remember, the b&%ch is a lawyer (oh sh#$, I didn't say that, did I? ;-) The statement "could" have been taken out of context, and she only meant that as I have given her the benefit of the doubt about (for the sake of playing devil's advocate here!)

IMHO, I realize that she meant it as it sounded, but unfortunately in this day and age it IS the letter of the statement that is the law, and she 'could' justify the statement as it stood.

What was it I heard the other day... "Who wins the debate? The person who frames it", and the media are the ones framing the whole che-bang.

======================================================

FYI, I've only been lurking recently, haven't had much time to participate, as I'm in the middle of an unexpected relocation. We, the missus and I, have been packing, job-hunting, and cleaning in preparation to move into the family's farm back in upper East Tennessee; we've had enough of this town, and I can't see how anyone could stand a larger one. So, we're going to be in the country, and gladly. I'll be able to shoot off the front and back porches even, well, if the wife'll let me, that is.

Oh, and Al O... I bet I could find a pair of sheep shears in the shed if you need 'em! LOL

L8R, all.......

Leslie <lnbright@juno.com>
TN, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 04:03:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.169.250.234)

Glad I got some people Perked up problem is on the wrong part of my topic no matter, On S&W being for "saturday Night special bans" I saw the Someone Representing S&W. Do not remember who for sure Im lucky I can remmeber my own name little lone somebody elses, anyhow they were on a news program talking about cheap gun bans. I believe it was CNN was about 5 months ago, as far as I know S&W does not try to hide that fact whatsoever so check out there site Im sure theyll have something about it.
Now I was questioned as to the quality of S&W. I first found out how junk they are when I bought my sister one for graduation Present. after about 100 rnds the cylender locked up. Took it to gun smith found out this is common problem with S&W as they need to be shimmed. also if they get Dirty they will "freeze up" as well. Well known fact hear at The State Prison where they are the Issued Fire arm and has constant problem with them locking up. However in all honesty and fairness I do not know if this problem is do to Certain models or what have ya, but what I do know is this is the first Revolver I have ever heard of jamming up. As far as hitting someone head with a pistola at 150 yrds, I have to agree totally with MR. Cooper on this one he says " the only reason for having a pistol is to get to a Rifle".
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula, Mt., USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 04:04:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.146.91.93)

None, I find the site very informative...I am a former Marine myself! Echo 2/5 31st MEU(SOC) 0331! OOH RAH to all the Devils out there.
Roger Gullickson <Akicitananji@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 05:42:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.3.152.35)

Gooch,
The lunch-box legend strikes. What is it about the arcane art of sniping that attracts you? Cant do it up close?

I have never met you, but quite a few on this site sing your praises.
Unfortunately it appears that you have neither the maturity or mental dexterity to cope with technical argument. If I am wrong, write a rebuttal to your .50 cal shooting nemisis on this site. I can't meet you and look into your eyes but I can read, and analyse your counter-argument.

At least display some honour and integrity instead of the child-like scoffing at the unconventional wisdom researched by other less self-seeking individuals.

Go put your cam cream back on and watch another John Wayne movie.

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 06:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

I have been wanting to ask some of the more experienced shooters about a problem I've been having...
I have had a rifle built using a 700 SA (lapped, balanced and blueprinted) fitted with a 26 in. Krieger fluted 1.25" taper to .975" barrel cut with a 13 degree crown. It has been bedded into a McMillian A-3 with pillars and Devcon alum. On top is a Leupold 4.5x14x40 tact. mil-dot. I wears a short Harris bi-pod ( I am a police sniper and shoot mostly from prone) and a mil-spec leather sling. It weighs over 13 lbs. Now, my question goes like this...
When this rifle is shot from a lahti vice, it shoots groups of .152" to .260". Not those are not mis-prints. I ordered the Jewel trigger at 1 lb. 8 oz. Now, when I ( and several other old shooters) get behind this rifle, we experience three or four shots usually in the .40-.60" range then 1 or two shots from .5"-1.5" away from the body of the group. If this makes any sense, I am unable to "call" my shots with this rifle. My PSS and 40-X do not do this to me. I have to take one of them along with the new rifle to regain confidence while I am testing it. The cold bore shot is also moving 1-1.5" from one day to the next. At this time, I have no confidence in the rifle other than watching the gunsmith fire tiny groups with it from a vice. If anyone can shed some light on this, I would be much more than grateful.
Lowcrawler <jrr051468@aol.com>
Meridian, MS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 06:48:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.57)

Hi! Just need some help with target shooting.. currently doing Air Rifle, Smallbore 20m prone and Fullbore. Anyway, I find with small bore some weeks I can shoot 98 - 99, but on a bad week I barely get on the happy side of 90. It seems that when I have a bad week, my shot does a donut around the 10 dot... does anyone have any advice for me?

Alan
Alan Tse <alantse@netspace.net.au>
Melbourne, VIC, Australia - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 08:18:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.23.72.3)

Hey Gooch...
I just got my AN/GVS-5 Laser Rangefinder back from the Russian... and it's got "Gooch Slobber" all over it!! You owe me a beer for having to clean the lenses...

Darryl...
Gooch Can't watch John Wayne movies... they ain't got no Tee-Vees down in West "By Gawd" Virginy... hell man, they ain't hardly got no 'lectricity after sundown... so he'll have to just go on and do what others watch on their "Tee-Vees"... it's a tough life but someone has to do it.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 09:18:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.129)

Lowcrawler; It might be worth pursueing another bullet weight to see if the same thing occurs. The suggestion might be the twist is not quite right. This is provided that nothing is fooling with you as far as being loose and I'm assuming you have tightened everything 50 times. I might be tempted to try a different torque on the bedding screws just to see what happens not as a cure but just as a troubleshooting procedure. The scope is a possibility. I would check it with a bore sighter and see if all the clicks are happening as they should. In that particular scope if there is anything but perfection in each click movement around the range you are shooting pull the scope and try another one. Parallex could be to blame be sure you don't have any at all! You know not having all the facts and for other readers I have to even tell you what you probably have already tried. The Bipod, needs to eliminated also and sand bags used to check for what happens there. I am assuming there is no compensator or brake involved. The crown is a possibility check it with a big magnifier. (last). Sandbag the thing, take the bipod off completely and hook just one finger over the top just ahead of the scope when you shoot don't squeeze just kind of hold it in the finger circle and note what happens to the drifting groups. HOw full is your powder case? If your shooting a factory load get a good handload and try it. If it's a low charge of Varget you could be affecting it by handling it. (this is very unlikely). IF you suspect powder ignition at all go to magnum primers to try. This should take you till Christmas and sounds like basic stuff but somewhere here you might discover the real problem.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 11:37:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Darryl,
I have never met you nor the gentleman referred to in the post but I have met Gooch. He's been there and done that he doesn't need to watch John Wayne. What he't trying to say is that there is a lot of bull shit being slung around that doesn't mean squat in the real world of shooting. Figure it out for yourself, can you shoot good enough where a half min. of and angle would make any difference at 1500 yards or even a 1000 yards?? There are to many other things that come into play that have a greater effect on accuracy than spin drif or the earths rotation, thats all he's trying to say. He's not the only one either, if you go back through the post you will see that Rick and alot of others agree with Gooch. He has the balls to stand up and tell it like it is so don't go slaming him for it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 11:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

I recently got a H-S Precision in 338 Lapua and am having a great time with it. It's not the standard HTR, the stock is fixed LOP and it has a muzzle break. 28 inch 1 in 10 barrel with H-S's trigger, three round detachable magazine. Factory supplied target shows .262 inch 100 yard group. So far only thing I've shot through it is some factory Lapua 'Blue Box' 250 Lock Base and some 300 Sierra MKs hand loads. Hand loads use N560 and Fed 215M primers. I'm looking for some data to use Reloader 25, I'd appreciate a hand-out if anyone has data.

Gooch
It wasn't me posting about Earth rotation, East West elevation corrections.

Darryl (Ovine version)
Have any luck with your steel 700 SA floor plate?

Dave "Doc" King
Dave King <david_l_king@yahoo.com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 12:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.80.109)

THE PERFECT SHOT NOT TAKEN…

We showed up for the Super Sniper Match, and we all got our kits on the line.
Everybody got set up, and when the 10" targets would pop up at UKD, we had to take 10 plates in the given time.

A lotta' guys had nice rifles and good scopes, and most guys had Mil-dot masters, others had pocket calc's.
Most guys had spotting scopes focused on the grass half way down the range...
... but I was going to clean this one... I had science on my side.

When the plates popped up, I got out my surveyors theodolite, and got the angular subtension of the plates as .2802777778 minutes of angle.
I enter that into my lap top computer running the latest version of "Excel"... 1007 yards. HA, I'm already ahead of those dummies... they'll probably mil-dot the plates at 1000 yds.

OK... now, spin drift at 1007 yds... well take the spin drift at 1000 (2.1") x 1.007=2.1147", but the spin drift data was gotten with 6 grove 50/50% rifling, and I'm using 4 grove 20/80% rifling, so that's 2.1147" times .47 K factor = .993909" of spin drift a 1007 yds... it's going well.

Wow, I know I'm gonna win this one, those guys are already shooting with no real data! They ain't gonna hit poop!

Next, I'm shooting at a latitude of 47 degrees north of the equator, so I take the equatorial "Earth Drift" and divide by the sine of 47 degrees the get the earth drift (EqD)x(sine 47)... but I'm shooting at an angle to the longitude of 78 degrees south, so the earth drift is a negative number... so I have (EqD)x(sine 47)x((sine/-1)x78), and add that to the positive spindrift... now the correction is .36 inches to the left at 1007 yds.
Ok, were getting' close... the hell with scoping grass at 500 yds... I got my portable Doppler shift wind meter... lemme see, we have a varying 4.373 mph to 10.785 mph, fishtailing from 36.974 degrees, to 48.937 degrees...
Ok, we're getting ready... enter the spin drift... the equatorial drift (with corrections)... the angle of the sun... the temperature of the receiver, scope bases and and rings, times the expansion coeffecent rate of the steel... and the Doppler data into the "Master Excel Spread Sheet"!... Load a round and wait a moment for the computations...

(There's a tapping on my shoulder)... "Wadda ya want?... I'm gettin' ready to shoot!"

"Hey buddy, the course is over, everybody's left, we gotta clear the range!"

Shit... I'll do better next year, I'll get a faster lap top!

Hail to science! The hell with practical experence!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:33:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.103)

Hi Folkes, I was just able to turn on the computer today, after a very inspiring weekend at SMTC . (Still cleaning dust of my spotting Scope and BL scope from the Dust.) When I say inspiring, I really do mean that. When I first showed up for the LLR1 course last weekend, many of us were introduced to a completely new way of shooting andn our confidence kept increasing by personalized instruction and hands on doing the shoot. But this week, standing back at the 1000 yard mark and looking at the targets which we were about engage (no time for sheep engagements - couldnt find the right ring size), many of us thought to themselves, how the f**k am I going to hit that target. But once again professional instruction came through and by listening and doing, you also can do it. Keeping accurate log books and coordinating your thought processes with your spotter, you all of the sudden are ready to make the shot.

Since our class was considerably smaller this time, there was a much more personalized instruction by Rod and Kent, but always a professional and safe atmosphere.

As you can probably tell I can not say enough good about both courses. These two course have transformed me froma a wannabe long range shooter to one that still needs a lot of practice as we all do. Thanks again, Rod, Kent and Stu (my partner)for helping me to qualify first time around.

KS Tactical: About the SPringfield 3rd Gen Scope. Usually there is a reason why the scope is being sold for "a deal". It is an above average scope, but most long range accurate shooting is done with mil-dots and spend the extra bucks and get a Leopold or a B/L Tactical.

Mr LeMay: Good Point about the nuts running around at the Keyser Wal-Mart. Didnt I see you in there, last time I was there??

peteR: Great time this weekend, Great to finally meet you and your lovely wife. How did you ever get so lucky to have someone so lovely get to marry you??

Depity Dave and your Brothers: Nice having dinner with and telling me your experiences. So now we know that the Candlewyck is not the only place in town to eat., Francesco - great Italian food. But dont mention Kent Gooch name in there, we almost got thrown out of there on our ears, Some kind of Italian swearing and something about chasing the owner's young daughter around. Counldn quite make everything out between the swearing and ducking the meat cleavers being thrown at us.

I've rambled on enough.

But one last thank you to Al (Uncle Nunzio's nephew) Biacci and 2you know what for. I like to think I done you proud.

As far as the sheep shears go, didnt need them, but up att the 1000 hill, there were some mighty good looking hiefers in the field next to us and Im sorry I forgot my ladder.

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:48:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.129)

Oh, almost forgot! Ned you mentioned your HS Precision 338 Lapua. Hope you have a wheelbarrow full of money just to buy the brass. Considered also building one, but the brass cost is about $2.00 a piece.

Remember at Storm Mountain, dialogue is the most important aspect of your shooting with your partner. And "The Ding is the Thing."

al o. (again)

Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls. net>
CHronologically Challenged and back in the Great State of , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 14:54:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.129)

I Don’t know who wrote this.
J.D.H.

Dear Mr. President:

As both a taxpayer and veteran, I strongly protest the exorbitant fiscal and Military resources you proudly took credit for committing to the national spectacle surrounding the unfortunate death of John F. Kennedy, Jr., his wife and his sister-in-law.

First, although the deaths of Mr. Kennedy and his family members are
certainly a personal tragedy for friends and family, they are not a national tragedy anymore than the loss of any other human life. Can you (or the SECDEF) name the two soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division killed in Kosovo last weekend, or the Army Lieutenant who died in a plane crash in the mountains of Columbia on the same day? Could not you have mentioned their names and service to the country in your fawning TV bites about the Kennedy’s? Your reinforcement of the endless press hysteria and hype is a disgrace to your office and our Nation.

I can easily think of several unfeigned national tragedies demanding your attention, such as your repeated imprudent commitment of our armed forces to missions that have nothing to do with vital US interests. You’re ill-advised gutting of our national defense to the point of unreadiness; and certainly your own personal conduct. But the death of John F. meet the mark.

As a taxpayer, I see no reason for Kennedy’s loss in a general aviation accident to be treated any differently than any similar accident involving the loss of any other private citizen. Your unnecessary commitment of Coast Guard and Naval resources to a grandstanding recovery mission at a level far beyond what would have applied in any other situation smacks of politics and elitism (and your insecurity) at its worst.

Present DOD policy alleges that our country can’t even afford to provide full (if any) military burial honors for real heroes (like WWII veterans) unless they happen to be considerate enough to die at or near a military installation that happens to have resources available at the time. Under those conditions, it is an affront of the worst order for you to honor a civilian (who never served his country in uniform) with a burial at sea supported by a US Naval warship. How many WWII vets could we have properly honored for the cost of the Kennedy burial at sea? Perhaps you or the Kennedy family intend to reimburse the US Treasury for the cost of this gala.

You might also apologize to millions of veterans and armed service members who you insulted by this special treatment at their expense. Your excuse that ”this special treatment honors what the Kennedy family has meant to the Country” is political claptrap. Your actions prolong the imaginative status of the “royal” Kennedy family. Those of us who’ve gone in harm’s way for this Nation remember that our first war, the Revolution, and the drafting of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were substantially about discarding forever that sort of elitist privilege in this Republic. We didn’t
want it in 1776 and we certainly don’t need it now. Examples for us all-not an American “Princess Diana.”

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 15:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

After reading constantly about the quality of instruction at SMTC, my partner and I have signed up for the basic rifle course in late Sept. Would some of you guys that have been through the course please send me any pointers you might think are relavant to getting the most out of the course. My big worry is that my limited budget will leave me short and I'll miss out on the full learning opportunity. Right now, our kit includes one used rem 700 bdl .308 with a single piece base, mark IV mounts and a Leupold 3.5 x 10 long range (last b-day present)...my partner will be shooting a M1A w/ NM trigger and barrel, with a Landtec mount and bases (copy of the Brookfield mount), the glass on this gun is a tasco 10x tactical....our spotting scope may have to be an old 8.5 x 20 leupold vari-x on a camera mount. I'd like to do reloads but I'm wondering if I might be doing myself a dis-service. I've done loads for pistol and .223 with accuracy improvement on the .223, but I don't have a starting load for the .308 and would guess the two guns are not gonna be even close w/regards to optimal loadings. Can anyone suggest a starting point w/ regard to primers and powder...I have 1000 rds of trimmed and prepped LC brass and the sierra 168 gr bullet seems like a no brainer as a starting point...I do know how to measure OAL in the 700, but I'm a bit shaky on how to mix OAL with max length that will work in the clip w/ the M1A...any suggestions on kit, technique or a starting load for either gun would be much appreciated,and if your around Storm during that time, most certainly would be remunerated in cold beer. Also, will 8lb of powder be enough for the required 1000 rds plus the 100 or so I'll need to shoot to work up a loading?
Jim Mitchell <debjim@bellatlantic.net>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:02:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I'm looking to buy a high end Spotting Scope. I'm looking at the Swarovksi 20x60 straight view scopes. Great reviews, but I don't have a sense of how durable they are or if I should consider something else. I in the mindset that when it comes to optics, buy the highest quality and you'll never be disappointed.
BMiller <bmiller@mediaone.net>
Newton, ma, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.99.69.152)

Pablito:
I just read your calculus thing. You are exactly right, and that is why I still say Tactical folks should shoot High Power Matches, especially Long Range. There is absolutely no substitute for trigger time and Match Shooters are getting it. 300 or more rounds a month in all kinds of conditions. There comes a point where this constant shooting experience just lets the shooter "know" the conditions for the shot.

My two cents is develop a good 1/2 minute load, stop there and shoot the ever lovin' hell out of it - all the time - with the same one gun.
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.123.2.83)

Hi, I have another question.
For night vision sight AN/PVS-2 I have the Organizational maintenance manual. Is operator manual exist for this sight, and where can I get it.
second, is it possible to get bipod mount M2 for M1A rifle?
Thanks
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, ca, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:05:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.19)

Pablito,
Loved the post!! Only you could say it so eloquently though. In a nut shell, a lot of people spend to much time trying to be to damn technical, worring about things that don't really matter instead of just shooting!! Your data will tell you if you need to correct for anything from barrel "Walk" to spin drift. Just go shoot and record the results and you will become a good long range shooter, it just takes practice, practice, practice.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:27:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Darryl down under,

I don't think Mista Gooch really needs my help, but I happen to do Federal contract work with some folks who are "in the know", not Master Snipers, Wannabees, etc. etc., they are "the real deal"
During a nocturnal discussion regarding perimeter security, ECP's, duty gear, tactical methods & training w/ rifles, shotguns and handguns from places like: Glynco, GA./Greenbelt, Md./Private companies, and I happened to mention the name Kent Gooch,
hushed silence,
and "You mean from Quantico?"
next comment"The man knows his stuff"
These guys often cover my "six" at work and they are dead serious folks. NUFF SAID!

and Partisan,

I carry a S&W revolver at work, it works flawlessly EVERY TIME as does my personal training piece (K frame M-65-5)which is current production and built as good as the ones from the 1930's.
Didn't that EX-VP moron lose his job because of his mouth? He is the manufacturing version of Reno, whom I believe had her mental capacity/competency to hold office questioned more than once
due to a degenerative condition, RIGHT?
The very woman who openly stated she would NOT enforce current prosecutions for federal firearms violations because they would "tie up the court systems for decades". It ain't about crime control, its about disarmament.

Al,
It was very nice meeting you and Stu in person. I think the Carlos match will even be more fun now that I know about Franceso's. We will have to take "The Rosterfarians" there, (you know Bolt,'Lito, Undude, and the rest of the Carlos match rapscallions) instead of Lucy's Sheep Dip Cafe.

If they don't start nailing boards over the doors when we pull up.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 16:36:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.27)

Lowcrawler;

I will try to address some of the most common problems, part or all of which you may have tried. First check the length of the front mount screw. To do this take the scope off and loosen the three other screws on a one piece base or the rear screw on a two piece base and check for any movement. If there is any movement, shorten the front screw, this is the most common problem I see. Next check for barrel clearence, it should not touch except just in front of the action. Next change the tension on the action screws and see if this changes your POI, if it does you have a bedding problem and you should take this up with your smith. Use the ammo your smith is using for your testing as it sounds like it is of good quality (but don't expect those little .100" to .300" groups all the time that he got with the machine rest). When you take it to the range to test, use some sand bags or a front and rear rest but remove the sling studs front and rear or at least make sure they do not touch anything during recoil as this will make a big change in POI. Last but not least change the scope as it could be bad, I know it is a Leupold but they make some not-so-good scopes also and if it is the scope send it back and tell them you are with LE and they will fix it a little sooner. There could be other problems but I just listed some of the most common and easiest to fix.
I hope this helps.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 17:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.66.123)

Darryl:

What gives? Anyone who finds himself in a position where it is necessary to engage targets at one mile with a rifle has got more problems than whether to account for spin drift. Snipers don't carry the battle. They are just another asset (like the rest of us) a commander may decide to use or not use. All that high speed BS is just that. How often do military snipers kill at that distance? The fact is, it just doesn't come up all that much. You can kill more stuff with a radio, binos, map and compass than a company of snipers can. When Gooch says it doesn't matter, he's right. At average sniping distances one is likely to encounter you've got a lot more to deal with than techno-geek crap.

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 22:56:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.47)

First on foam cutting - Thanks to everyone who posted and emailed me on this. Your comments were all very helpful. I eventually ended up using a large long carpet style razor knife. The curves were still a bear, but it worked really well overall. One person suggested freezing the foam. If I'd had room in the deep freeze that might have worked too. I'll experiment on some of the smaller left overs and let you know how it went. In any case I now have a really nicely form fitted case.

Tjis weekend I found myself at the range breaking in that Model 70 and it has come a long way. Its eating Gold Match 168 now very nicely indeed. I am very pleased with how well this rifle is doing. Still have to do some trigger work on it etc but I couldnt be happier.

On the Smith and Wesson Handgun topic - I went through my training using a S&W 586. It was a totally out of the box gun. No trigger job, no special grips, no new sights, no laser, and except for not liking the aluminum cassed cci stuff that we had back then (The extractor would not function) it was and remains my favorite handgun. I took top gun wiht it every class so somethign had to be right. I will admit when it gets VERY dirty (hundreds of rounds) it will start to have problems turning the cyl especially if it was oiled heavily and not fully wiped down beforehand. However that beautiful piece of machenery (with a little help) shot far better than any of the pythons on the line and was more reliable than anything else I have used except for an old loose 1911 that I have never been able to make malfunction. (The 1911 is also only about as acurate as throwing abowling ball at 25 yards :-)

I'll be very dissapointed if this rumor about S&W getting in bed with the gun grabbers is true.
JT - Webmaster for Tactical Intervention Specialists <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
Rifle Sling City, Californi, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.184.139.147)

Rostafarians? I represent that remark, I think! Except the fairy part.

And, ever cents that thar Al.O. feller started a talking bout them little sheepies, I been usin a little bit of that sheepie dip behind ma ears instead of terlit wawter. UMMMMMMM, likes to have me some them rare lamb tender loins.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:48:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.48)

PeteR...

I highly protest, and represent, your disparagin' remarks towards Lucy's "Sheep Dip Cafe'".
Ewe know that those "Sheepish" waitresses are the reason half of us are going to Carlos... hell, we ain't even bringing rifles or ammo.

Got a note from Remington today... they are shippin my 40-XB based M-24 that I'm having built for Carlos on... you got it... Oct 4th. So I'll be bringing a couple of Winchesters, and maybe an M-21.

Spoke to one of the head engineers on the M3-LR, and first, he's a she, and she's damn good, and knows her stuff. The Mil-dot MK4's from Leupold have round dots on glass, but the factory Mil-dot M3-LR's have football dots... the factory scopes use the Premier reticles... so there are no M3-LR's with round dots. They just overhauled my M3-LR... quoted 2 weeks, shipped it on Monday, it was back in my hands on Wednesday!!! Not bad!

If you shoot Fed Match...
Spoke to the Powder engineer today about Fed GM Match, and he stated that for Fed GM1, GM2 and GM3, each has "THREE QUALIFIED PROPELLANTS" (his words), and though their lots may all have the same muzzle velocity (24" test bbls) they may vary in longer or shorter bbls... also, even if the vel is the same in your rifle, try to buy large lots... different lots may have different POI's because of the different burning characteristics.

Fed GM-2, M118, and M118-LR, and most commercial loads with the 175MK, will track the "Meters" cam on the M3-LR... and the M118 cam on the MK4-M3

Fed GM-1, and "M118-Special Ball" and most commercial loads with the 168MK will track with the "Yards" cam on the M3-LR, and the "168 cam on the MK4-M3.

There is no "meters" cam for the 168, and no "yards" cam for the 175.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 17, 1999 at 23:52:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.133)

PeteR,Paul,Pab,,Pat,

My point stands. I accept that technical aspects of long range marksmanship have practical limitations. Pablitos range example said it all. I dont think that any reasonable person would dispute that point.

However, does time spent cleaning and polishing the primer pocket make any difference? Really? We are permitted to discuss such debatable practices on this site without ego censorship. Contrast this with the reception on .50 cal spindrift.

It appears to me that while this site is purportedly for the exchange of information pertinent to long range marksmanship, it must be acceptable to the guru class and its uncritical groupies.

My criticism was never about the practical validity of technical sniping solutions, it was about demonizing those that dare breach the accepted non-technical conventional wisdom.

The last I recall of the spindrift exponent was after all the fur had settled he commended the site and stated he would avoid the sorts of exchanges the concept originally elicited. He did what was right by the site. But what guru saw fit to drag the cat back in?

.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 00:27:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.14.52.71)

Lowcrawler; My post might not be clear in one respect. The reason for checking the movement of the crosshairs might not be apparent as you might say what has this to do with the group cause I don't touch the adjustments. The reason is that if they don't track there is probably some backlash or movement that shouldn't be there and it might just be moving between shots and coming back. Jerry could be on the mark with the bedding thing as it is likely to change between shots as much as anything. Somewhere there is a answer I'd say.
S&W Politics aside the S&W Revolvers are among if not the best going but possibly the binding and lock up is caused by failure to countersink the cylinder in the later models. S&W just did this after declaring it served no purpose and was too costly. They increased the space between cylinders and proceeded to make the first unreliable S&W revolver ever made in the L series. Now they do it in all of them.
Otherwise they don't quite pay attention to the action timing like they once did. Tsk Tsk! Too bad. Some worked well and some didn't.
I suspect there are better revolvers today of other brands in the new stock but the old Model 27,29,19,36 and 15's and even 10's of yesterday were unequaled. Find you one with countersunk cylinders and pull the trigger double action and note the smooth timing. The difference is quite evident. The Model 19 Combat Masterpiece is the best one I've used. It isn't quite a strong as the 27 but much more size effective and accurate for a number of reasons.

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 00:37:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Guys, this time PLEASE don't get the Daryl thing started again. Perty please!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 01:29:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.186)

...Just another holiday...

Pat:

I'll be arriving in Pierre Friday evening, gotta work Friday morning, but I'm staying the weekend, at the Ramkota. Just tell me which bar and what time, I'll try not to drink ALL the beer!!

Mr. King:

I'm gonna have to have a talk with our Ballistician and sales people. If we had a 338 Lapua shoot that kind of group, it would have just made my day, and 'The Wall'. They're holding out on me, I'm tellin ya!!! Don't let these guys give ya too much shit on the Lapua, it is a fine round, expensive, yes, but that will change.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 03:10:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.34.10.103)

Boys, now be nice. I know both of you and as soon as you both had knocked each other around awhile you would be fast friends and having a beer. Just skip the knocking around, you are both getting to old. I know I always hurt the next day now. Seriously Darryl you have walked in on something that would take along time to explain(I gave you a more detailed email) and Gooch is considered to be as good as it gets in sniper instruction. I know you are a nice guy and just misunderstood what Gooch was doing. Bottom line dont get each other mad over this. Gooch may take it out on his students and I am going to go to SMTC soon. I hate running if you know what I mean.

Mike/Undude
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:00:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.99)

Yep, put up the Kabars. Hell it's one of those things that gets you going and then you wonder why you went. You know it's possible to argue both sides of something and both be right! There is a high tech scientific side of things but the Pab is right with his satire! The fact as I see it is that a professional can't be hindered by getting too scientific when his life or someone else's is at stake. The science belongs on the test range and why not! It isn't practical in battle or surgical sniper work to get too precision. Go to a bench rest match sometime and see what goes on. It's quite comical the lengths they go but don't laugh if you want to stay cause they know what they're doing. In battle or emergency work that all goes to hell in a handbag in 30 seconds. It's 2 different games and you play it by 2 different rule sets. Hell 1500 yards with 50's is artillery but which commander is gonna give the go ahead to shoot a perp off a hostage or bomb trigger at more than 200 yards. It would be fun to see somebody try to sneak with that 50 or somebody try to hit a small target at 1500 yards with a .308 for any kind of effect. There is an evil mix though where to mix too much ignorance of science or too much application of it can be bad. Experience and good judgement will make up for a lot of science and vice versa. Put in another NIckle...
and the Music goes round and round!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:30:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

MikeM: Hurt the next day? haha Ain't it true. Looks like Gooch spent the late night saddlin' up ol' trigger, eh? Gotta love those full contact drills. They say the taste for it never leaves your blood:)

It appears that trigger does his writing in a different place now. Are we better for that? Never met the guy, probably never will. His stuff on 50 cal shooting was interesting to me though, probably proves I am in over my head, huh?

Pablito: The M70 has gone to greener pastures. I appreciate all the words of advice you had on it.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:35:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.91)

Bruce, I have to admit I miss Trigger's posts. No matter what his past he does know alot about shooting. I even say a post of his on another site and commented I thought it was good that he was still teaching/helping others. I hope he can mend the fences. Hell of a waste of knowledge, if no one is going to listen. No one ever agree with everything and that does not make anyone correct. As James Jarrett says "Good men can disagree and still be great friends" That says it all.
Mike
MikeM <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:45:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.38)

MikeM: Like our own chat room, no?

I know what you mean, and I don't know where the trails crossed out back. Guess I was just never much for one on none shadow boxing. Much to my regret, there was always someone there countering the jab:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 04:58:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.91)

Crap, the spelling grammer police will have a field day with the last post. Bruce we defend people all day at work and sometimes it just spills over into personal lives. I dont kick puppies or anyone having a hard time. We all go through bad times and no matter what someone has done, I wont kick them when down. I have seen bad guys and I mean bad guys turn it around and good guys go real bad, so I try to treat everyone as well as I can.

MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 05:08:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.53)

Darryl:

Maybe I'm guilty of seeing this from too narrow a perspective. Where I worked we had no time for such calculations due to the nature of our typical engagements. It's just that arcane techniques like that stuff mentioned earlier border on trick shooting; nothing you can count on (especially when time is of the essence) but spectacular when it works. I do appreciate being able to access such information here nontheless and I'm sorry if I was rude. I have gleaned a butt load of great ideas and methods from the contributors to this site which I would normally be too stupid to conceive of on my own.

Sincerely,

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 10:39:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.240.135.180)

Rick: Thanks for the help. Love spending everyones tax dollars.

Gooch: Also thanks for looking. Is SMTC still the ATI distributer in the States.

UnDude: Nice site. Expect sling order in Oct.

Getting short. Need help reaching the pull-up bar all of a sudden.

Ed <eaengler@hotmail.com>
CP Greaves, ROK - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 11:15:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 143.77.211.227)

Bill R,& Mike,
Well said guys, and like Paul, I also apologize, I enjoyed some of triggers posts for the technical side but I felt they were way over the average shooters head, it was like asking the time and having someone tell you how to build a watch. This is a good sight for and exchange of ideas and no one should be knocked for it, but I felt Darryl took a cheap shot at Gooch. Like I have said many times before we "ALL" tend to look at things on here through our own narrow field of shooting experiences, enough said.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 12:49:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

On the calculations, I agree that some of the calculations will take so much time that the conditions will have changed by the time you have your answer. I now use the basics, Range, Angle, Temp, wind. Dope it dial it and shoot it. That unless I misunderstand is what the Gooch has always said. I can do this in a matter of seconds and with the number of toes and fingers god gave me. Now if I was shooting a very long way ( 1200-2000 yards) I might look further into a couple of other principals but keep in mind that you can adjust for all the above and miss the wind by 2mph and have a much bigger chance of missing at that range.

I have no problem with anyone giving ideas on here and gets us all to thinking. An example is my sling. For years I was happy with a modified MRT Sling. Then I sent one to Gooch. He said have you thought about using nylon, so I did. Here I am about ten design changes latter in one year and I have something so much better than my original That I laugh at the first ones.

Mike
MikeM <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 14:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192)

I am looking at either the
Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3, or the Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M1 for my gun. Any recomendations? Is the M3 with the bullet drop compensator really worth it, or is the M1 just as good? Any of your comments are appreciated!!!
Thanks in advance
AXE97 <sapper97@usit.net>
Everywhere, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 14:58:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.180.248)

Mike M,
What your saying is true and the way it is with most shooters. I think what Gooch was saying is that the ranges we shoot at with the 308 or even the 300WM this is not a real factor because to many other things will have a far greater effect on the bullet, just like your example of the wind. Sometimes you have all the time in the world to make the calculations and then sometimes you don't, you just go with the SWAG and hope for the best. In a perfect world there would be no wind and we would all have the exact range to the target but as we both know that doesn't happen. If I have a day when the wind blows less than 15mph thats a calm shooting day for me, then when you throw in shooting across draws and small ravines it really makes it interesting so spin drift gets lost in there somewhere with and extra click or two. We sometimes can make things more complicated than they need to be and a new shooter can get lost in worring about just the basics without the other voodoo thrown in on top that is for a very select group of shooters who have the skill and equiptment to shoot those ranges. I would suck triggers brain dry if I was going to be using a 50 cal or shooting past 1500 yards because he has evidently done a lot of work on this type of shooting but that is out of the realm or reality for me. Just my thoughts on the subject for what there worth.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 16:08:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

Does anyone have a place that they like for buying Federal Gold Match 168 in about 2000 rd quantities cheap? Any leads on the best deals out there would be appreciated.
JT - TIS Webmaster <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Pablito,
Do I detect a little back-peddling on your original statment that the 175 gr. bullet must be running at 2675 f.p.s to track poperly with the 308 M dial on the M3-LR ? Just what is the MV of the Fed GM-2, M118, and M118-LR anyway?

On the last part of your post where you said that the M118-Special Ball will track with the (168gr. Y dial), I am sure that you meant to say, M852, but we all have those little brain farts now and then.

There may be no meters cam for the 168 gr. bullet but if you can load the 168 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can use the (308-2600 M) cam and be close.
There may also be no yards cam for the 175 gr. bullet but if you load the 175 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can also use the (180 gr. 2700 Y cam) for the 30-06 and be even closer.

It takes a techno-geek to know these things. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:34:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Pablito,

I enjoyed your rendition of what to do and how to do it. I just see that as all the more reason not to buy a laptop. Damn things will never be good enough. Besides, if you are not enjoying yourself out there, why are you there? Way to go.

All,

I would like a little assistance, if you will. My grandfather, (deceased) was with the Canadian forces in Europe during WW2. Specifically, he was on Juno Beach, then went through the hedgerows in France. He was a sniper, and I would really like to research what he had and what he used, and even if possible, what he did. When he was alive, I was the only one whom he told about the war to, not my granny, his kids, or any of the 17 other grand kids.... just me.

I would appreciate some assistance here, cause im pretty much not knowing where to look,,, and i thought someone out there, may have some info on the WW2 canadian snipers.

"Jack Daniels is in the freezer, i gotta go rescue it"

Gone.

sean <nailer@perf.bc.ca>
waayyyyy up north....., b.c., canada - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:38:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.197.14)

Steve...
No!
and I think think the whole issue went over your head last year, and it went over your head again... you haven't got it yet.
I would suggest you buy one and use it in the way it was intended. You can't shoot tactical matches with a computer program.
If those are your definitions of "close enough", you would place last in every match I've ever shot in...

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:09:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.60)

semper fi 8541

mike vernazzaro <vmanwookie@cs.com>
plymouth, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.168)

AR-15 Magazine Question: If you chose between these three 30-round pre-ban mags, which would it be? Sanchez w/GF, Adventureline, Okay. Why choose? You have to. The Sanchez w/GF maybe old BF rejects that have been changed over to GF without your knowledge. Or, are they all equally good (except the Sanchez w/BF)? Mike? Bill? Scott? What say ye?

PETITION DISTRIBUTOR, RUNNING OUT OF TIME IN KALIFORNIA.
C. Ross <chr@alanex.com>
CA, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.182.177.3)

Pablito,
Surely a guy that can write a elaborte satirical page with goobs of numbers can do better than that. Could you provide some hard numbers as per my original post as to why that is not so?
As far as finishing last in a match, I havent done that yet. I haven't won either. The best I ever did was place #192 out of 1671 of the best shooters in country in the National Matches in 1992. It was enough to put me out. My Distinguished riflemans badge number is #1021. What's yours?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Steve,

You ever make the President's 100? You go to Perry this year?
I went but did not shoot well. My kid did good though. We only
stayed for the Service Rifle matches. Shot the John C. Garand
Match too. That one was fun.

Best Regards,

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:20:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.43)

To the headscratchers,

I have been following the latest handwringing about precision calculations, specially Pablito's scenario, funny one. The fact of the matter is that these methods WERE trained to SOF snipers for a number of years. When these SEASONED SOF operators heard the program and the intended use of it, each and every single one of them, ARMY SF, Rangers, SEALS, EOD, USAF across the board completely understood it.

IT IS NOT intended for the battlefield sniper who is laying there on the wastelands waiting for that target to pop up to be engaged. In fact, for the conventional army or marine sniper, under common battlefield conditions, it has nearly no application at all, because they DO NOT shoot at the ranges at which the combined MET and ENV effects will be experienced.

Again, I must say that damn few shooters that shoot, haven't done so at ranges where these effects come into play. The Fifty Caliber Shooters Association is a club that shoots long range routinely. Their matches are 1000 yard matches but they do club shoots on extreme ranges quite often. They also have some very intelligence science types there, i.e. Eric Williams, Chemical Engineer, and so forth.

They have no problem with this. My final word is this. If you have a 300 magnum, drag your butt out there and put a target down 1500 yards away, and have a go at it. By the way, the laptop won't work. It's not that simple.

To those with interest, email me with questions, ill be happy to field them. THere are about 150 SOF snipers out there with this training and i'll guarantee you this much. Not one single one of them will say that any of this is unnecessary, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHOT THESE CONDITIONS.

The book that I wrote on this is being published in NOV 99. That explains the across the board program. If you're interested, fine, you'll gain from the knowledge, for the others, keep your over-educated or otherwise head in the sand and enjoy the sand fleas life.

Later dudes.
Trigger50 <Dmicha@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:25:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.16.130)

This is the bees knees, been looking for a site like this for yonks and yonks. Unfortunatly I dont think I'm mature enough for this site at this moment in time. Thanks for your help Steve, I'll take your advice and return.
Tony Whitfield <toemag@hotmail.com>
Munich, Bavaria, Germany - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:27:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.158.32.39)

Well, I'm looking for a beefy long range mount for a 700PSS, and there's some choices to make, but for sure I WON'T buy one , or anything else, from D.D. Ross. Elsewhere on this site, an article on his mount stated that he builds tactical rifles "for law enforcement only"...well , this civilian peon was trained at the Bundeswehr's Hammelburg sniper school in 1983,and I daresay I'm as qualified to own one of his shootin irons as the cops are....MY policy...after Sig Sauer announced they would limit sales ofsome of their auto pistols to Govts and police only, I sold mine and will never buy another...I'm not going to support the police state mentality of making sure us tax slaves are outgunned...
Bob <rct@netside.com>
Irmo, sc, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:31:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.150.162.50)

C.Ross; Wish I could help. I use the Colt 20 rounders and some 20 rounders that are made at Parson's Kansas. I know there are some real bad 30's so be careful. Someone here knows Bill W. can tell you and probably will! Those must be west coast things or I've forgot something I've heard of Adventure line but don't know if it's good or bad.
MIke;You have a 10 ring with the wind statement. You can figure everything going and there's nobody alive that knows what the wind is really doing. It may be updrafting slightly or blowing harder somewhere along the range. Even the bullet height above ground will effect it. (far more than the earth rotation) but the spin drift is there but you won't miss on account of it at .308 ranges unless it's combined with other errors and that's the kicker! Never the less and it's worth accounting for in my book. Point is the wind is hard to judge and small errors are big ones down range and it makes a difference how high off the ground the bullet does go.
Pretty high at 1000 yards but it's only there a short time if your shooting prone. Damn wind!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:34:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bill B.
No, I never made the Presidents 100. I really tried when Reagan,Bush, and Ford was President. I have been boycotting this match for the last 7 years. I will try again when the patch is something I can be proud of.

Steve
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 22:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.1.244)

Hello All,
I'm new to the board, and need some advice. According to NewsWeeks' latest editorial, I am either a psychotic or criminally irresponsible - I ruled out 'professional criminal' easily enough, but am having a hard time deciding which of the above I might be. Any pointers?
Maybe I should just deep six my Garands, with those evil bayonet lugs; THAT would get Newsweek off my back.
Anybody ever thought about a class action slander suit against those morons?

Mark

Mark <mfitch@mediaone.net>
Jax, FL, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 23:03:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.129.104.211)

For those of you living in California - there is a petition going aroung to subject SB23 to a vote by the peeple. If 400,000 some odd sign, it goes on the ballot in March. A site with the full details is at:

http://www,vetothegovernor.com/

Pablito:
Didn't you know to be prepared. Have all of the formulas and constant already in the spreadsheet when you arrive at the range. Get the true direction downrange before the match starts. Then you can just punch in the wind and the theodolite reading for each shot and get an answer in a couple of seconds. When that shot misses, simply allow for it by holding off or adjusting the scope by the amount of the miss and you'll be on in two.

Seriously, that's how the crews of the 155mm howitzers do it nowadays. Punch in the receiving coordinates, fire a spotter, then correct and fire for effect. Or if the target is unarmored, spot for effect.

That's what I like about this page, a free and open peaceful discussion of ideas (two outa three ain't bad). Something for both the technogeek and the "Just shoot it" types alike. Guess which I am from my previous posts.

Anticipating incoming, the rank novice burrows into a deep snowbank.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 23:59:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.58.20.75)

I have a Rem 700vfs in .308 with a Tasco 4-16X44 TJR
I was happy with FedMatch 168s.
My Dad-in-law and I pulled some of the Serria bullets and replaced
them with Burger 168VLDs. BIG change, cut group size in half. Last
Sunday we tried a 150gr serria flat-base soft points with 42.0gr
of VV n-135. Clean bbl 5 shot group was .601in @ 100yrd. We moly
coated 10 of the 150s yesterday, going to try them this weekend.
tglenn <tglenn@pathway.net>
Harrisville, PA, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 01:03:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.231.49.144)

LOOKING FOR A KN-250 SIMRAD ANY AND ALL HELP WILL BE APRECIATED
sam clements <SRCsniper@AOL.COM.>
MD., USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 01:27:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.26)

With so many of you folks buying so much Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, you must have a BUNCH of once fired brass. What do you do with it?

If you are interested in selling some of it, I would be interested in buying a coupla thou... I just picked up 1000 LC 91 and have been using 1000 R-P. The R-P is about used up. I intend to load the LC 91 and 'put it up.'

Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 02:33:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.16.165.85)

JT: For the match ammo, look through Gun List...someone in there advertising @ lowest price I have seen publicly. Email me if you can't find it, friend has a case or two I could check price on.

AR15 mags: I have had good luck with the Sanchez 30's...have no idea what color the internals are:) Too bad about Cali. Hear a bitchin' handgun bill is being introduced, or was? Illegal to sell handguns that have not been safety tested by the state...and of course the manufacturers can't send those that are already out of production, so...lots of good "old" pistols will be restricted if the law is enacted.

Trigger: Glad to hear the book is a go. If the draft carried over to final copy...many will enjoy the winter read. What is it 500+ pages? Any word on the new Sebru [I think that is it] BFG50? $1,700 price makes it kinda attractive. Spoke with someone regarding the Knight50...quite delayed, huh?

Anyone hear if BillW is back from the North? Interested in hearing about the shoot Bill, if you are home.

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 03:25:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.15.30)

I am seeking information on H&K G3-SG1, history in U.S.,general info.
Just bought one, and I am curious about them. Didn't know exactly what I was buying until afterwards. I know some know, but H&K doesn't exactly help with information on them. Thanks.

Dustin <SEdged69@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 03:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.163)

Well long as the SKS is getting attention since it was apparently shown as a sniper rifle may as well throw something in on that. First of all I like the SKS I think its a great gun. but as all guns you have to realize its limitations. So a couple of weeks ago I decided to find out for myself just how far one could shoot accuratly.
so I set up a steel man sized sillouet ( leave it alone I cant spell) Target at 500 meters and at 400 meters. Waste up targets mind you. anyhow my SKS is still just open sites. Wich I am a damn good shot with. Well so anyhow Ill get to the point. I pounded out about 30 shots and damned if I didnt touch eather target. Scared Em. made em sweat. if they were living theyed have grabbed dirt, and with any luck dove into a bullet. So there goes the Poor sks. guess it really is only good to a maximum of 300 meters and not a inch more.

Quickbow,,,,I see you and your friend are worried about armed trespassers. well buddy alot gave you some good advice in here and listen to it all, but remember in the Ich to see if you and your buddy really are quality shots ect. your armed tresspassers arnt Innert objects or a dumb deer that only knows how to run. Point is just remember one thing, you draw down on somebody you better be ready to live up to the consiquences. One way or another. There is no second chance at life.

Partison
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Missoula , Mt, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 04:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.146.91.158)

The best price I have found for Federal Gold Medal ammo is $309.00 a case (500 rds) from Hoplite, Inc. in Kentucky @ (502) 955-5014 8am-5pm EST. Right now they only have the 168gr but when they have it the 175gr is the same price. They usually advertise in Shotgun News as well.
michael <mjsheehan@verio.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 04:27:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Has anyone seen the new illuminated reticle versions of the Leupold Vari X III LE scopes? I have seen them starting to make their way onto a few price lists but never seen one in person. Recently when I asked a dealer about them he said that they were battery powered and that though they were on his price sheet, Leupold has not begun to ship those models. Just another twist to the LR M3 story....
Jarrod <jboehme@pdq.net>
Baytown, TX, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 06:39:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.118.9.180)

Jarrod...
The new Illuminated M3-LR's have just a very small "x" in the center of the X-hairs that is illuminated... the rest of the reticle, and the dots, don't light up. The battery is in a large "Wart" on top of the eyepiece.

The new "NXS" from Lightforce may be a comer. Looks like an M3-LR with an objective on steroids (56mm)... The whole mildot reticle is illuminated... the battery in is in the small focus knob on the left side, so there are no lumps on the eyepiece... has 95 moa of elevation, and 1/4 moa clicks.

Should sell for about the same.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 11:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.65)

To All,

Here is something i think most of you will appreciate reading...

www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_email/98.e-mail.shtml

Maybe more people should be reading this stuff than some of the news
the read in the papers.....

Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
NY, NY, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 11:21:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.156.88.50)

On lighted scopes. I have found that anything visiable through the scope is usually hitable with a normal duplex. If you have a dot or other reticle you might need it. It tends to blot out the target presumably because it is brighter than the target itself and tends to light up the tube. Careful adjustment of brightness might help. This could be night sniper's tool. But I'd sooner have a aimpoint at close range for swat purposes. OTher thoughts?
I would not take Quickbow's shooting at man Silouettes (can't spell either) as a indication he intends to shoot trespassers. Many of use Man targets I would speculate. I hardly shoot anything else. It is just a test standard.
Speaking of that 3 out of 5 shots from a good SKS should hit a man Silly at 400 yards and possibly 1 less at 500. (based on quite a bit of my own testing with different shooters)Iorn sights and all. Check ammo and rifle for accuracy.
HK G3PSG -nice gun but accuracy may not be what you'd think it would be.
I would say if you get positive head shots at 300 meters it would be the exception. It will at 200 meters. I have equipted several HK-91's and 93's and all have the PSG-1 triggers. Their accuracy is no where near their reliablity as a Sniper Rifle. I would be interested in hearing true information from others on this subject!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 12:33:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

AXE97,
Damn , what a name(HA) On the M3 or M1 question, I have the M3 and I love it for tactical shooting. I don't think you can do better. I would say the type of shooting that you will be doing will dictate the scope you choose. If you will be shooting at long ranges(To 1000yds) and at multiple targets in between, then the M3 is the only way to go. If you plan on doing some very precice shooting at 100 to 500 yards you may like the M1 better because of the finer adjustments. I have a 4.5x14 that I switch back and forth on my one heavy barrel depending on the type of match I will be shooting. Hope this helps you out but its just my opinion.

Hey Guys,
I just talked to Darrel Holland last night at the Varmint Hunters Jamboree and he showed me a new scope mount he is building and is it ever slick. The mount and the bottom half of the ring is one piece nothing to come loose. He is making them in a one and two piece set up and the one piece will have a built in taper for long range shooting. He said he doesn't have any made for the 30mm scopes yet but will shortly. This would be a bullet proof tactical mount and will sell for around $75.00 thats everything, ring and base since its all one piece!! The two piece looks like a MK4 leupold ring and base set molded togeather, the top half uses the standard top ring half. I have and order in for the one piece when he gets one made for the 30mm tubes.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 13:12:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.221.188.130)

On the lighted reticles: Try a mini Chemlite taped to the bottom of the objective lens with only a small portion visible. If you have a scope with a front focal plain reticle you will have a visible reticle for about 4 hours. You won't need the batteries or the extra weight.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 13:22:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Hey Pat Murphy!

You (and son too!)BE famous dudes! P.70 of latest issue of T-S.

You guys see where shooting 60 lbs of Varget a year will get you.....

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:04:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)

In the recent past I have seen a few posters asking questions about the Accuracy International Chassis system and the AW rifles. We just finished an article on our problems with AINA. We have talked with many people and s few departments that have had the same problems, some of these are mentioned in the article. If you have any questions about AI, read this first. I don't want anybody to go through the same nightmare that we have. The article can be found at http://www.snipersparadise.com/accuracy.htm
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South Tip of Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:08:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.247.107.202)
Ned, I will look forward to your order and thanks for the kind words about the website

Alot has been said about enviornmental effects on here and we have two groups of ideas. One are the guys who study the traditional role of a sniper and that means human sized targets at ranges you have a very good chance of success 400-1000 yards. The other group is geared torward Hard Targets/Missle Sized Targets at extreme long range 1200-1500 yards. I and 95% of you others fall into the first group. For us the equipment and time needed out weigh the marginal benefit. I personally have had no problem with shooting out to 1000 yards with my equipment, adjusting for the wind, reading the mirage, adjusting for temps, dialing the corrected distance(Elevation factor) and just shooting the darned thing.

Reading charts for wind drift and such. I see that anything past 1000 yards has a very slim margine of error. If the other factors help diminish this more power to it, with the warnsing being: What will change why I make my calculations? What will this do to the calculations? Do I have to do the Calculations again? How accurate are my original readings(Wind, Temp, Range)? The world changes quickly and the longer you take to make your shot the more likely something will change and do you.

When we are talking about shooting at any distance, we have to fihure that the farther away something is, the more changes the bullet will go through on its way to the target. The wind will be different speeds and from different directions. It may even swirl. Up drafts will happen. The temperature will be different. Christ I could go on for days. Bottom line is you can not calculate for everything.

Dope it, dial it and fire at it. Learn to read the wind and the basics. Dont relay on anyone for all the answers. Get out and shoot under all the conditions you can. I doubt Steve became the great Shooter he is by using a calculator before firing on the NM Course. I learned by trial and error. That seems to be what most have done.
MikeM. <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:11:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.157.52.61)

Do to lack of funds i'am looking to build a rem. 700 part by part, and i see most of the things to build one on this site (in the empoureum) the only thing i dont see hardly at all are actions . do i need to pick up a complete rifle and put out $ 650.00 plus at one time or just keep watching for one to come up ? how scarce are they ? i,am sure i need a short action for .308, but whats the diff. between ADL and BDL ? thanks in advance fo any help i get .,,,,,, Dean
dean snyder <deanspyder@worldnet.att.net>
melbourne, fl, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:19:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.255.108.194)
What I shoot doesn't shoot back but I can tell you he don't wait around for the second shot. IF you do get one it's a super mover! MOst of the time it's either 1 shot 1 kill or 1 shot where'd he go! The science you can use depends on the time you have. He don't even give you time to mill him let alone grab a calculator 1 time in 10. The range is 50 to 500 yards and any angle up down or front or behind.
More often than not you don't even have the time to dial it ! But I like to have available all the science I have time to use. A good spotter can put you on the second shot and that's a science in itself!
Here's to you Wiley! If you ever get a gun or a knife I'm gonna take up golf!

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 17:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Thomas at Sniper Paradise,

Interesting article, The Brits do make some superb equipment and firearms, in fact some of it is absolutely brilliant, and not just tactical rifles either.
However, I have noticed a trend over the past decade that the crap lands on the US shores regularly, or what is written up by their Gun Whores as a "world beater" is per just diem drivel.

To deal with a LE agency like the Coral Gables PD and THEIR tactical team rifles like that is downright criminal.

About that $5,200 price tag, I'd rather have a Ruu, Ruuug, and 15,000 rounds of ammo to practice with daily than attempt to deal with that kinda buggery. OUCH.
Heck I could have a car full of anything domestic production for that cost + loop-hole scopes on top!

Guys READ THE ARTICLE and draw your conclusions.

later gaters!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 18:01:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.56)

ALL,
Anyone try out the new Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x Long Range M3 with illuminated mil-dot ???
AXE97 <sapper97@usit.net>
USA - Thursday, August 19, 1999 at 19:02:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.145.246)
PeteR,
OK, what did I do to become famous?? I don't get the TS until nearly the end of the month. Did someone catch me doing a brain fart(HA)?? God knows, I have had enough of them lately!!

Mike M,
You are so right in what you said to Ned. When I started shooting out to 1000 yards for the first time I needed a piece of cardboard the size of a Suburban to know where I was hitting!! Strange things happen to your bullets once they cros