Sniper Country Duty Roster

August 2006

rod regier,

No offence intended, but it's obvious by your comments that you don't know what REAL sunlight is :))

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 01:44:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

Again, thanks for the advice. Will respond to each.

Alan, the light difuser was in place.

WR Moore, screen spacing is pre-set with the chrony. Open it up and it's ready to go. Tests were at a measured 10' and 15' from the muzzle. It's ALMOST Marine proof...

JR, will test at long range, as well. I have exbal and several other programs. My own come-ups were established with this load and I have over 1,000 rounds downrange with it. ALL with no change. Spot on at 15 MOA at 600.

The suggestion to shoot closer to the screens may have merit. I was shooting above them a good bit. Will take care of that on the next trip to the range, as well.

Torf, Good to see you posting even if it is about distressing news. Agree, the Christian bystanders are some of the people most affected.

Although, it is not the same situation we see folks fleeing from Kalifornia and elsewhere by the influx of illegal aliens and the negative impact they have on quality of life for all Americans. They don't seem to understand the problem remains and follows them. If this keeps up we'll all be living in Alaska.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 02:01:03 (ZULU)

My sun's brighter than your sun country....

Alan:

I'm at around 45 degrees latitude. I chrono during the summer months (Hard to find non-cloudy days in the winter here). The sun is pretty high in the sky in the middle of the day here in the summer.

I'm not going to be impressed by stories of high solar flux unless you're below 30 degrees latitude :-)

(n.b. Orlando is approx. 28.5N, Los Angeles is 34N)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 03:06:19 (ZULU)

rod regier,

I found your attempt at a tutorial on chronographs and their diffusers condescending at best.

As far as the effect of sunlight, you might take high elevations into consideration before you spout off about latitude.

On second thought ..............nevermind!

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 04:32:27 (ZULU)

"Just wondering if anyone has read the "One Bullet Away~Making of a Marine Corps Officer".

The book is a good read.

I verified his attending the survival training with my son-in-law who is the US Navy Chief in charge of the Survival School training in Calif.

I can't vouch about the rest of the book.

They have kept a roster of all who have attended the survival training since 1957.

Semper FI

bomac
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 05:00:25 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

After much thought on the matter I think I may have hit on the explanation.

Gremlins. Gotta be 'cause there's no other explanation. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 05:37:39 (ZULU)

You guys (esp. SWAT guys) have GOT to check this out! Click my name

Travis Morgan
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 07:12:42 (ZULU)

Handgun-country:

I shot a Pardini PC9 9mm pistol this weekend. WOW! Even a SIG210 felt clumsy after this. I don't like alloy frames but the owner had a good point: Ferrari have alloy engineblocks..

Here's a picture of a 6" duotone: http://www.mamut.com/borselars/subdet50.htm

Notice the bore centerline agaist the grip. The thing almost don't move when shooting. World class trigger is externally adjustable by the shooter.

There's a small frame PC9 and PC40 ( 40S&W ) for small hands. PC45 is a larger frame that accepts 45ACP. Both frames are double stack.

www.pardini.it

Catman:

I've been offered a NIB Zeiss 30x60 Classic mirror spottingscope. It's very compact. Think it's about 10 years old. Any experience with this?

Tor

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 08:22:35 (ZULU)

My sun's brighter than your sun country....

Alan:

Altitude. Hadn't thought of that, I've not spend at lot of time at elevation. You win.

If you had mentioned that to begin with...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 08:27:30 (ZULU)

The Brits can't be happy about this pic.......click my name.

Travis Morgan
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 08:29:05 (ZULU)

Wes: Have you chrono'ed other known loads as a control?

CDC'
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 14:41:54 (ZULU)

CDC',

Using a control group is a good idea. I keep some milsurp around for just such a purpose. It's surprisingly consistent.

Duman
Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 15:38:58 (ZULU)

Just got my VFW magazine today. Page 40 is a full page article about Nathaniel Fick, author of "One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer" written by Janie Blankenship.

He appears to be the real deal...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 16:09:59 (ZULU)

Wes, To check your Chrnograph,use a .22 rim fire rifle as control.

Most Match 22 Ammo will be close to the speed of sound ,fired from a

rifle.

WW T-22's wokie for me,cheap as well. LOL

Record the Velocity & Temperature and you'll have a ready reference.

Here is a handy Speed of Sound vs Temperature converter if your

looking for exact numbers.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/souspe.html

Regards & Good Shooting,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, Us of A - Tuesday, August 1, 2006, at 21:21:57 (ZULU)

Gary,

while you're looking for a Hornet, don't miss the CZ. It's basically a baby Mauser scaled for the Hornet, 222, and 223 sized rounds. Built like a bank vault and fairly priced. I tried the #3 and a Sako and a (now re-barrelled) 77/hornet. Kept the Ruger as I have too much in it to let go of it and I finally found a load for it that will stay inside MOA. Try Lil' Gun, match pistol primers, and 35 gr V-max. The only way I'd get another #3 is to re-chamber it to triple-deuce and I'd want to see the #1 shoot before I shelled out the shekels. Have fun in your search,

Erik in Kodiak

Erik in Kodiak
Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 00:15:36 (ZULU)

Click for THE deal on a Hornet. I have a .17 HMR much like this rig. Very nice rifle.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 05:25:46 (ZULU)

Eric

To late now the Browning will be in my hands thursday, although i did think about the CZ. I'd been using H4198 with the 40 V-Max, but i have a new lb. of LIL GUN for that purpose.

CDC

I also thought of the 17, but really didn't want another calibre to play with.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 10:23:09 (ZULU)

Gary,

The Hornet is a 22-caliber.

Duman
Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 14:29:53 (ZULU)

Gary Kaney: The link is to a Hornet.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 14:32:14 (ZULU)

Does anyone know if Armscorp in Baltimore has changed hands? I'm tryin to get in touch with Jack, the current/previous owner. I got an answering machine from the # as listed on the web page.

John

john
Indy, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 16:39:08 (ZULU)

Torf,

I may have asked you this a while back but what bullet does the 6.5x55 use in its match ammo and what velocity do they shoot it at??? what is the barrel life out of one??? Thanks!!!!

Pat
Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)

Travis-I'm glad I finished my Coke before I checked out those pix. My wife had to come and ask me if I was allright.

Sir Wes- the PACT uses a bracket to keep the photoelectric sensors aligned. The rail was to make sure the rifle was pointed straight through the sensors and at the same height every time. 100 fps isn't many milliseconds with a 2 foot sensor separation, shooting at slight angles just adds variables.

WR Moore
Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 20:54:51 (ZULU)

Duman

I know the Hornet is a 22 calibre. The Hornet has worked for me since i was introduced to it 15 yrs. ago by an elderly friend of mine who bought a Savage in the early 40's. I was dumb enough to buy ruger. Now i've got a little extra cash to up grade. Thanks DOC.

CDC

Might be coming your way Sept. October

I'll let you know. Like you said before BRING A GUN.

How about the 260?

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 23:36:13 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

That must be one of dem hairless bipods..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Wednesday, August 2, 2006, at 23:36:38 (ZULU)

Gary: That time of year it's all big game and birds. It's too late to get in on the big game, but you can help me break in my new brittany. I'll lend you a shotgun or bring your own.

CDC'
Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 03:49:24 (ZULU)

Gents,

Well, with a little luck I can figure what is causing the velocity increase in my .308 ammo. I'm betting on the chrono or the set-up is the culprit. Will take spare batteries. Plan to set up small "flags" at either end of the unit directly in line with the sensors and 3-4" over them. That should take care of any positioning errors and keep the bullets directly over the sensors.

Deer season is in October/November and Rooseveldt Elk in mid-November. As such, I'm starting to get ready by loading and practicing with my rifles. The custom .284 has two loads it loves. Both use 53.0 grains of RL-19, a Winchester .284 case, Fed 210 M primer, and 175 grain Speer Grand Slams or Hawk 175 RN's. Both shoot sub-moa consistently from my Mexlicher. Velocity is good. My "do everything" load. May even use it for elk this year. Although my elk rifle is a .35 Whelan AI. An old USMC friend gave me four boxes of the old Hornady 275 grain RN's. Long out of production. It's interesting that the December 1956 American Rifleman had an article by Townsend Whelan on the .35 Whelan and that specific bullet. His load was:

275 grain Hornady RN

61.0 grains IMR-4350

Winchester 120 (large rifle) primers

Winchester .30/06 cases necked up to .360"

Pressure was noted as 40,500 PSI, velocity as 2,358 FPS, and OAL 3.35".

I'll work up to that and see what velocity and accuracy is obtainable from my 23" Krieger barrel. Should be fun. That is IF the chrony quites being an issue!

I don't have to tell you how fond I am of the .35. It's bad ju-ju for the elk population. If I didn't use the .35 I'd probably go for a 9.3 X 62 or 64mm.

Am looking forward to being that bright eyed 16 year old kid for a few days this season!

Tomorrow is the first follow up with the orthopedic surgeon. Hopefully, he'll let me start hoofing it a bit. Need to build that stamina for the season. The plan is to pack back in several days before the season. This deep in our coast mountain range.

Wife leaves in the morn for several days to Kalifornia. So, self, my white shepherd, and dachschund are baching it for a couple days. Hence, FRIDAY is range day!

Isreali's still kicking the Hezbollah about. Don't you just love world opinion that they are causing to much pain and suffering to these poor terrorists? A U.N. peacekeeping force isn't going to happen given the level of anti-U.N. sentiment and their track record. Have they successfully done anything since Korea? Personally, I'm damn proud of the Isreali's for seeing what must be done and seizing the initiative...this in the face of world opinion.

Enough for now will report back later.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 05:27:30 (ZULU)

Anyone know any good therapies for hip flexor problems? I'm also starting to have problems with the outside of my hip, near the top of my pelvis.

Thanks in advance.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., - Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 13:11:33 (ZULU)

Mornin' hawgs,

Look out the kitchen window around 0800 and see a dog slowly sauntering up my rifle range toward the house. I finally wake up enough to realize it's Wiley E. Coyote out there about seventy-five yards! Of course by the time I can get a riffle out of the safe he's long gone. ;o( May just have to remove the screen from a window.

My gun club is starting to have vintage military rifle matches. I think the newest rifle allowed is an M-1 Garand. Does anyone have a good .30-06 recipe that would work in an M-1 or a Springfield 1903?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 14:41:08 (ZULU)

Doc,

You can always brew up an equivalent of the GI M72 National Match ammo which was used by the MTU's from about 1958 'till 1967 and is good to go in both the '03 and the Garand. Here's a recipe:

LC brass - you can substitute Winchester but work up to it. I use it!

47.2 gr. IMR4895

Remington primers (I've substituted Win. WLR with no differences)

173 gr. GI Match boolet - you can't get these anymore (good riddance) and I've substituted the 175 gr. SMK and it kicks ass over the GI 173

This is not a high pressure loading, reported to be only 44,500psi and the powder speed is ideal for the Garand. MV is 2,660 fps.

Many a competition has been won with this load. My club has a similar old military match, it's loads of fun.

HTH,

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 15:05:25 (ZULU)

Alan,

That's great. Thank you very much.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 16:02:36 (ZULU)

re: M-1 Garand loading

Concur w/Alan, IMR4895 is an excellent powder choice for the Garand and the 175SMK is a nice projectile choice to go with it. Much slower powders are not compatible with the gas port/op-rod pressure curve requirements of the Garand.

I'm running a non-cannister-grade powder (CF8506) that's probably around IMR4064 in speed with a bulk 165g pointed softpoint for the Garand, but I don't expect to shoot beyond 300 yards with it.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 3, 2006, at 22:15:14 (ZULU)

Doc;

For my Garand, I use 48gr H4895 in Remington brass with CCI primers and Nosler 155gr BTHP match bullets.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, August 4, 2006, at 02:36:27 (ZULU)

Jody,

Thanks. I'll give it a try as I happen to have a fair amount of H4895 and no IMR4895. If I remember correctly, Hodgdon's first powder was MILSURP 4895 from .30-06 ammo. When I can get the IMR I'll try it too. So far the matches are only 100 yards; but that will be a stretch for my old eyeballs.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 4, 2006, at 03:00:54 (ZULU)

Midway sent the Burris Signature Zee rings and two boxes of 5moa, 10moa and 20moa inserts. I centered the Zeiss scope on my Remmie target riffle, put the 0moa inserts included with the rings on the .22 and fired a shot at 25 yd. The bases were misaligned by 44moa (!). Using the two 20moa inserts, I compensated 40moa, used the scope's internal ajustments for the remaining 4moa and fired a group.

My apologies to Zeiss for calling the Diavari C a POS. The Zeiss works like a, well, Zeiss.

It seems that I needlessly bought a Nikon 5.5-16X44 Monarch. Boy, do I feel stupid. Is anybody looking for a deal?

CDC'
Friday, August 4, 2006, at 11:28:53 (ZULU)

CDC,

IIRC those Remington .22 target rifles were not drilled and tapped at the factory for scope mounting. I just can't see Remington making that big of a screw-up, but I suppose anything's possible. At first thought it seems to me that your rifle was the unfortunate victim of some gun butcher.

In any case, I'm happy to hear that the problem is resolved. I didn't think that the Diavari C was at fault. A lesson learned. Now that you've already got that Nikon the thing to do would be to find a new rifle to fit it ;))

ALAN

Alan
Friday, August 4, 2006, at 13:47:55 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any expirence with rifle basix Triggers.I put one in and set the pull to 8oz the a month later I replaced the firing pin and shroud with an aftermarket one and the weight of pull is more.how is this?

Jon Kujawa
Friday, August 4, 2006, at 16:43:48 (ZULU)

JK,

Let me guess ......it's an M700 and you replaced the firing pin/bolt shroud assembly with a complete unit that included a new firing pin head (aka cocking piece). Chances are that if this is the case the new cocking piece is of a slightly different dimension than the original one that you replaced and has changed the relationship between it and the sear.

Readjust your trigger to compensate for the difference.

If that's not it, long distance diagnosis can be a bitch!

ALAN

Alan
Friday, August 4, 2006, at 17:53:25 (ZULU)

Alan,

Yeah,Thats pretty much it.I give it a try this weekend.

Thanks JK

Jon Kujawa
Friday, August 4, 2006, at 22:29:17 (ZULU)

CDC;

E-mail sent about scope.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, August 4, 2006, at 23:42:17 (ZULU)

Just got back from 8 days without e-mail, phones, TV, or 'puters :(((

Can you say "Cold Turkey"?? :(( Are the Israelis still at war??

We went to Vermont (not my choice), and stayed on lake Champlain.

8 days in beautiful dairy farm country, and not a single friggin' woodchuck to be seen. A local farmer said they all got 'et by the coyotes - seems they have a serious coyote problem now... bad enough that the new calves are kept in puns with 8ft high chicken wire until they are 8 months old, to keep the 'yotes from getting them.

The locals are having 'yote shooting contests, and the Vermont hippie dropouts are protesting them (nothing changes in Vermont ;)

No 'chucks and 6 crows :((

Sir Wesley...

I had a #1 in .22 Hornet, and it was a good shooter. ~3/4" My friend always wanted a #1, and always wanted a .22 Hornet, so he made me an offer that I couldn't refuse.

I gots a #1 in .218 Bee that shoots even better.

I also have a CZ that is outstanding - 1/2" over and over with 40gr V-Maxs.

Keep in mind that the #1 will take loads WAY over the book loads that were maxed out for the little Winchester 43, which is just a rimfire action with a firing pin in the middle.

Don't waste your time with 2400 and 4227... use "Lil' gun" and the other fast ball poiwders for the loading density that ou can't get with the short stick powders.

Torf...

I can't help you on that one... I have tried to googoe the son-of-a-bitch, and come up with nothing.

The fact that nothing is out there, and that they discontinued then in not a good sign.

A friend bought one of the Pentax mirror spotting scopes when they came out... Pentax is a very good scope maker, and the thing was very "cute". 60mm objective and the size of a 1 pound powder can fron Hodgdon.

The thing was a POS, and you can find them on e-bay all the time... bt you NEVER find them at shooting ranges.

I would try to get it out to a long range and look thgriugh it before loosing any money on it.

CDC...

I vote with ALAN.

Get another riffle for that Nikon scope!!

Jon-K...

What ALAN said.

If you change the cocking piece to an after market one (or even another one from "Big Green", the new angle and/or different intercept point will change the downward pressure on the sear, and the pull will be different.

Just read adjust it, and it will be fine.

Bravo...

Dudewski, I tried to calling you to find out how 'yote Bate is doing, and they said your number was disco'ed :(

I have xxx-xxx-0652, and it no workie.

Hit me with an e-mail with your work and cell numbers, and I will put them in my cell.

Anyone out there know how ol' 'yote Bate is doing??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 02:54:35 (ZULU)

'lito,

'yote Bate is still hangin' in there. Darned insurance company is too cheap to get him a new pace maker so he's making do with the old one. He still reads the DR because he sent me a note this afternoon about 4895.

Cheers and welcome back,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 03:17:14 (ZULU)

Lito,

Well, the nice thing about VT are the earth-muffins at the university in Burlington. ;8~}

Regarding powders for the Hornet, I would think AA-1680 would work well. I load my 221-Fireball with 1680, good load density, get terrific velocities (3200-3300 fps), not stressing the system, and great accuracy with 40-gr V-Max. Terminal ballistics on PDs are quite nice.

Duman
Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 04:34:42 (ZULU)

Sir Wes: Orthopod-country; I was mildly surprised to find out from mine today that my right shoulder has a do-hickey at the end of the bicep that connects to a thinga-ma-jig inside the shoulder that has separated to some degree (need to see just how much before cutting yet). Dye in the blood for my next trip in the magnetized imagining hell-hole will provide those details. Yuck. The fix is arthroscopes and screws--much betterer than previous peeling back all the good stuff (and ruining it) to get to deep problems...but more invasive than the PT I was hoping for! All this from a stuck case in a .50 a couple years ago. I really, really wanted to clear that malf...and tore my arm all to hell. Who knew??? I get to fix the right knee at the same time (why not, I'll be in la-la land anyway). Heheh...once this round is done...I'll get after the left side stuff. I'm catching up on 25 years of neglect BEFORE co-pays kick in! With luck, the dull pain in the prone will go bye-bye!

I've been writing down the "issues" I have; bad ankles, knees etc, from ears to toes, basically...each "owweee" has a brief description. Why? Cuz I've been ignoring this stuff for so long it is less than background static to me (akin to the constant ringing in my ears that isn't there unless i want to hear it). Looking at the tear in my shoulder---the Doc and I were both amazed that I press over 250 without any problems. Drive-on attitude had a place...now, I'm in the "bitch bitch bitch" mode. And as it has turned out right off the bat--I am more torn up than I think I am. I outgrew superman status years ago...now, I guess I'll try bionics. Ha! This is going to suck!

My only shooting has been a pair of single action revolvers....not much to add to our topic. The .260 is waiting on glass and better bullets for a thorough eval.

Joe M
Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 05:22:15 (ZULU)

Gents,

Didn't make it to the range today, as planned. Dr's appointment took precedence. That and "she who must be obeyed" returning from Kalifornia. On her way back she looked for a hotel along I-5 and only found one she was comfortable staying at...the rest had all kind of undesirable looking folk about. She WAS glad I made her pack her S&W M-60. So was I.

Orthopedic Surgeon gave me a clean bill of health...for now. No limitations, but we will re-visit that in 6 months or so. He did say that the ankle will take longer to heal in the future and will be damaged easier.

'Lito, If I remember your "Hornet" came from a now deceased list member. You're getting fine accuracy from the sounds of it. I have two rifles on my short list before I get to a Hornet. Wanted a Ruger #1B in .308 for some reason and would like a small/light rifle in .221 Fireball or .17 Mach IV.

Prep'd my .284 and .35 Whelan AI brass this eve. Ready to load. Some development will be needed for the Whelan's new 275 grain load, but the .284 is a snap. Love both of the calibers, but if limited to one rifle it would be the Whelan.

Spent an hour or two in the shop of Steve Nelson, who I just refer to as "The Master". He was working on a .416 Rigby for a client. Nice rifle, but not to my tastes. Still, a man has to appreciate talent that produced a half octagon barrel with full lenght integral rib. The rifle had been originally stocked by Jan Bileb and included a steel butt plate. OUCH!. Steve said he doubts the client will ever shoot it as it is to be engraved after he is done with it. Also saw two original Rigby's. One in .280 Ross and the other in .350 Jefferies. Nice.

Steve is a big 7 X 57 fan and we discussed one of it's offspring...the 5.6 X 57 RWS. Man, I could just see the wheels turning in his mind.

Was taken back by the news that Dakota Arms has gone into Chapter 11. Trying to do to much at once. Had bought Miller Arms, doing imports of high-grades, Safari's, and you name it. It will reamin to be seen what emerges from the proceedings. Suspect someone will buy the rights to the Miller Single Shot Rifle and hopefully the Dakota Model 10. Sad to see all Don Allen's work in building Dakota go down the drain.

Am a bit jazzed about hunting season this year. Actually have vacation time AND a clean bill of health. Opening of Blacktail season is only two months away!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 05:38:41 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You bastard! Now I hear the ringing in my ears again! I FINALLY had it blocked out! LOL! Good luck w/all the butchers...err.doctors.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 05:57:01 (ZULU)

Tinnitus Country:

I'e been lucky and careful so far. One of my co-workers has been less fortunate. He mentioned an anecdote from when he was being preliminary interviewed by an audiologist about his tinnitus. The audiologist asked if he had been involved with automobile racing, chainsaw usage or audio production. My co-worker's response - Yes :-)

Kind of surprised firearm usage wasn't mentioned. Perhaps because it is so obviously loud that most folks routinely use hearing protection for at least the last generation.

Had an older shooting buddy relate a story of shooting Cdn military qualifications with the FN C1 (FAL) in 7.62 NATO in the 60's w/o hearing protection and how his ears rang for a few days afterwards. I suspect that means that the Cdn Forces changed at some point from not issuing hearing protection to the current standard where they *do* issue hearing protection.

I'm sure it wasn't a sudden thing, but can any of the older DR members post their recollections about when hearing protection because routinely available / utilized for range usage?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 14:19:57 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

You gotta be mean and tough to get old. ;o) Hope everything gets put back in working order without too much difficulty.

Sir Wes,

Great news. Now don't over do it.

rod,

My ears have been ringing for so long it just seems normal to me. When I took my first pre-induction Army physical back in 1959 I flunked it. 4-F! Physically unacceptable for military service due to high frequency hearing loss induced by gunfire. The only ear protection back then was a wad of cotton stuffed in your ears or a couple of empty .38 cases. I was smashing suitcases for TWA at Kansas City when the jets first made their appearance. We just stuck our fingers in our ears when the noise got too bad! Stayed away from shooting for a couple of years and enough of my hearing returned that I was finally able to get into Navy pilot training in 1961. At that time neither TWA nor the military had ear protection. When I returned to TWA in 1966 they had started using ear protection; but it really wasn't mandatory. I would guess that it was sometime around 1970 that they started to really push it. When I got back into shooting around 1972 or 73 I used Sonic Ear Valves unless I was hunting and then I didn't use anything. Finally went to muffs around 1982 when I started to play gunsmith. Most of my friends still don't use muffs; but almost all of them have gone to ear plugs. The combination of gunfire, factory work, airplanes, flying, tractors, and chainsaws has done a job on me. At least I don't have to buy high frequency speakers for my stereo! ;o)

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 15:06:04 (ZULU)

rod,

Hearing protection country ............I got my first rifle in 1956 at the age of ten, a Winchester M75 .22 with one of those skinny Weaver 2.5X scopes. Nobody ever mentioned a thing about hearing protection. Two years later my first centerfire came along, a sporterized M38 Swede but still never thought of using any kind of protection. A very long and varied group of firearms came quickly after that, along with an associate membership in one of the oldest (and largest) gun clubs in the Washington DC area, never saw anyone using hearing protection at the range! Fast forward to the USAF in the mid to late 1960's and never received any kind of instruction about hearing protection at the qualifying range, but we started using rolled-up cotton in the ears and later used ear valves when assigned to the fast movers (F105's). That's when I got our old friend Tinnitus, and still have it to this day. IIRC, the first time I saw the common use of hearing protection (muffs, ear valves, and disposable foam plugs)related to firearms was at the Emigration Canyon Gun Club range outside of Salt Lake City in the early 1970's. Possibly due to the fact that the RO was a wizened old guy named Moroni who had been shooting for at least sixty of his eighty years on earth with no hearing protection and consequently was as deaf as a post. There was always a large box of those disposable foam plugs for those that didn't bring their own protection. He wouldn't allow anyone on the range without hearing protection, always admonishing "you don't want to end up like me, do you?"

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 16:36:30 (ZULU)

DewMan...

"Earth Muffins"... you make me laugh!!

Gotta say them muffins are sweet, running around in Daisy Duke style cutoffs and tee shirts with no bras... but I don't think I could put up with listening how Kerry would have been a great president while I was doing the deed :((

I had a XP-100 in 221 FB, and used W-680 (the predecessor to 1680) and it was an outstanding combo. IT would probbly do well in the Hornet too!

Sir Wesley...

>"'Lito, If I remember your "Hornet" came from a now deceased list member."<

No... Ken Hunter got that one.

If you got the hots for a new rifle, do the .221FB, or one of the 20 cals on that case. I have had several 17s in my earlier years (17 cal matchlocks ;))), and they sucked.

I have a Rem 700 in .221FB, and it's great (changed the barrel out to an air gauged Douglas match)... it is a sweetie pie of a walkin' varmint rifle. It looks funny on a wall of 12 to 15 pound varmint artillary pieces.

I have a 20 cal (.204 Ruga) now, and it is quite impressive. Much more so than I first thought ('yote Bate made me get one ;))

Shoots flatter than a 22-250 by a LOT, burns 26 to 28 grains of powder in the BLC2, Varget, W-748 speed range, and doesn't eat barrels like the 22-250 does. It has retired my 40XB 22-250, which will go out for a new 6mm Ackley barrel as soon as I find some scratch.

There is a cute little 20 cal on the .221 FB case.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 18:40:46 (ZULU)

Why I Love Ann Coulter......

---

Questions taken from a recent Baltimore Sun interview (that didn't make it to print). Taken from her website http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi

----

Q: The last time we spoke, you told me you're routinely misquoted by newspaper reporters. What are a couple of the more egregious examples? Why does this happen?

A: It happens so much, I don't even keep track of it anymore. The last one I remember was when I said "cutting the tax rate on capital gains seems to have increased tax receipts for fiscal 2006, just as supply-side economics predicted it would." It came out in the paper as, "I worship Adolf Hitler and share all of his goals, especially the 'final solution' to the 'Jewish problem.'"

I have no idea how it happens, given the strict objectivity and rigid nonpartisanship of the American media.

Q: The mainstream press is in economic trouble. Any comments on how they're reacting?

A: They are reacting with the same hysterical leftism that drove readers away in the first place.

Q: Bill Keller said The New York Times published the Swift banking story because of the public's right to know. Do you think he thinks that? Why did he publish it? What is the job description of a metro daily newspaper editor?

A: I don't like it when people ask me if I meant what I said or wrote, so I'll take him at his word and assume that he really means what he said: that anyone who reads The New York Times, including our enemies, is entitled to information about secret government programs being used to track terrorists, which means he's either (a) a complete moron or (b) a traitor.

An editor's job is to edit, which should not be confused with "to release sensitive information that can help the enemy during a war."

Q: Why is abortion sacrosanct to the left? Why have Democrats chosen this as their hill to die on? Why is evolution so important to liberals?

A: Because they basically want to depopulate the world of human beings, hence their love of abortion and their commitment to a belief system that does not distinguish men from lower beasts.

Q: Have you encountered anyone on the left who has read "Godless" carefully and was willing to debate its points with you? How'd it go? Have any critics addressed the content rationally? If so, what did you think? If not, do you find it amusing?

A: Only one: Michael Eric Dyson. The rest just want to talk about why my skirts are so short and why I'm "mean." It's almost as if my critics are avoiding the issues I write about in the book.

Q: Does Hillary Clinton have a good chance in 2008? What are her strengths and weaknesses? What did her reaction to your "Jersey girls" comments tell you about her as a potential candidate?

A: Good chance of what? Coming out of the closet? I'd say that's about even money.

Her strength is her first name; her weakness is her last.

Q: Any comments on ...

A: Joe Biden: See my remarks on Neil Kinnock.

David Gregory: The man with no principles, no credibility and no last name.

Kofi Annan: That guy? Isn't he on the ground fighting with Hezbollah?

Katie Couric: The affable Eva Braun of evening TV.

Tony Snow: Cool guy.

Tom DeLay: How does Tom "soon to be acquitted and re-elected" DeLay grab you?

Rush Limbaugh: First runner-up for Mount Rushmore.

Joe Wilson: You mean Valerie Plame's clueless hubby? Whatever happened to that moron?

Dan Rather: Reports of his contrition are greatly exaggerated.

Cynthia McKinney: One of the most intelligent Democrats in the country.

Q: Any other wild, hippie-esque practices we should know about?

A: You mean other than the fact that I live in a filthy van with a dog, a gentleman I refer to as "my old man" and our daughter "Diversity Seagull," and we make our living weaving hemp baskets? No, not really.

Q: How would your career be different if you looked like Molly Ivins?

A: I'd be a lot uglier.

Q: Now that the "Slander/Treason/Godless" trilogy is finished, what's your next big project?

A: Finishing this interview. What are you, writing a book or something?

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 21:01:17 (ZULU)

Pat,

What MV's are you getting out of your 6XC at what barrel length with the DTAC boolet? Moly'ed or naked? What (if anything) has been your experience with the 107SMK boolet as opposed to the DTAC at 600+ with this cartridge?

I need this info to settle a friendly debate!

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 5, 2006, at 22:40:16 (ZULU)

Alan and lito,

Readjusted my trigger and it works great.I can't go any lower or it will slam fire.

I just got a box of 167 lapua's,If they shoot as good as they look they will be a good bullet.

Jon Kujawa
Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 01:25:20 (ZULU)

Hawgs,

Had quite an experience today. The "Traveling Wall" was in St. James, MO so I drove the twenty-five miles down to see it. They had the Missouri Veterans Home area all decorated with American flags everywhere. It was impressive to say the least. I've never seen The Wall in D.C. so I can only imagine it. This small version was about all I could handle. They had Boy Scout leaders helping out with finding names. Made me feel rather old when the one helping us kept calling me Sir! Sharp guy even recognized the Naval Aviator wings embroidered on my ball cap. If you ever get a chance to see either of "The Walls" by all means go.

Cheers,

A very humble and thankful Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 03:46:25 (ZULU)

Gents,

Doc H., Traveling wall hit Portland and I missed it. Hope to get to D.C. and see the real deal. One of the Casino owners on the Oregon coast (Lincoln City) put up a monument to the Desert Shield/Desert Storm folks. Have a couple friends on that one as well as the "Wall". Sad to have them gone, but at least there are some that remember and honor thier sacrifice.

Jon K., Let me know how the Scenar 167's work. I use the 250's in my .338 Lapua. Great bullets. Am getting an honest 3,025 FPS using 94.0 grains of Retumbo. The 300 grain SMK's are a bunch cheaper, however. They seem to like 90.0 grains of the same powder.

Cat-whacker-stomper-blaster-snuffer, etc., Have a XP-100 .221 FB. Got it in a trade several years ago and haven't fired it. Need to get a set of dies and go to town. Bet it'll really hum with 40 grain Nosler BT's!

So, Ken H. got Bruce's Hornet. Good man, Bruce. He is missed. Did a lot for our troops. Anyone know how Lou Ann is getting on?

By the way, don't pass on just so I can have a Hornet...;-)

Was wondering when someone would make a .20/221 FB. What they calling it? The 5mm Pipsqueak Express?

Tinnitis Country: Me too, dammit!

Ortho Country: Joe M, sounds like you're in the same shape I was. Played "ten foot tall and bullet proof" for a lot of years. Retired in '94 and it caught up with me quickly. Now the ankle is shot and my right shoulder isn't far behind. This keeps up and all we'll have to do is get together and tell "old guy" stories.

Let me know how that .260 project goes. You're waiting on boolit's? Just what did you order? Wonder how my AR-10 would do with JLK's, Berger's, or A-max's? Will have to play with those at some point. Not that my shooting is good enough to tell the difference.

Time to get ready for work. I start graveyard tonight. So, if my posts are even less coherent than usual you'll know why!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 04:41:11 (ZULU)

All

It's been a few days since I posted.

My good friend and spotter in Iraq was killed in a car crash on Thursday,July 27th 2006.His name was Ricardo Shepperd.He was a Specialist in the Army.He was 25 years old,a veteran of both Iraq and the Stan,a husband and a step father.He was a damn good soldier,and a great friend.

No expectations,no favors asked.I post this because one of our own is gone.Some of your best are probably gone too.Just take a minute to remember the best thing you can about them,and remind yourself to stay vigilant,both on duty and off.The Reaper never comes when you think he will.

Guys,I mean no harm or foul here.This week has been an eye opener.Just trying to share some insight.Too many soldiers have been killed after they got home because they let their guard down.All of us soldiers out there need to realize that their own cars are just as deadly as the IEDs or RPGs they dealt with.

Said my peace,dont mean to preach.I just hate laying good men to rest.

Be back soon,catch you then.

J.B.
Fort Worth, Texas, USA - Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 06:11:29 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

>"Cat-whacker-stomper-blaster-snuffer, etc., Have a XP-100 .221 FB. Got it in a trade several years ago and haven't fired it. Need to get a set of dies and go to town. Bet it'll really hum with 40 grain Nosler BT's!"<

Naw... you don't want to get dies for that POS... you need to get rid of it. I have a special bin for POS shooting stuff to save others of the pain of getting rid of their junkie shooting stuff... you can send it here and I will get rid of it for you.

>"Was wondering when someone would make a .20/221 FB. What they calling it? The 5mm Pipsqueak Express?"<

It's called the .20 Vartarg, and like it's parent case... it's "cute"!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 12:26:59 (ZULU)

Doc

Played with the Browning (Hornet) yesterday. Your right it is a fine piece of machinery. The Micro Hunter ia a light and compact unit, i like it. Took Kitty Whackers advice and put a Weaver K4 on it. Could not believe the quality of the scope for the price, $107.00.

I've got to tell a story here. Last evening i'm setting on the deck with the Hornet popping a gopher now and then. The wife put two stuffed pork chops on the grill, goes back in the house and comes out with two glasses of wine and her binoculars and starts spotting gophers.

It can't get much better than that. She's the one that said " If she were made of stainless steel and had a white tail she'd get more attention than she could handle"

Gary Kaneyy
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 13:49:53 (ZULU)

So my 20 plus year old scale took a dump. I went out and caught a Chargemaster on sale at local shop who sold business and was thining inventory. Only loaded a couple of hundred rounds so far but seems to be sweet. Any problems I should look for?

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 15:35:43 (ZULU)

Does anyone have any guns that a pretty much worthless?The reason I ask I happen to can't my eye on the new ruger super Redhawk alaskan in a 460s-w.My is that raw power in your hand I just can't bring my self to get one.

let me know what you think

Jon Kujawa
Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 19:47:48 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

>"...The reason I ask I happen to can't my eye on the new ruger super Redhawk alaskan in a 460s-w.

My is that raw power in your hand. I just can't bring my self to get one. let me know what you think"<

The operative phrase here is, "I just can't bring my self to get one."

V-E-R-Y S-M-A-R-T T-H-I-N-K-I-N-G !!

I once bought a 3" barreled, round butt S&W M-29 in 44 mag. It was "cute" in a brutish way.

Fired 3 rounds from it, and I took a beating when I sold it (to another fool).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 01:30:43 (ZULU)

Jon-K,

Two schools of thought on the 460/500 S&W. et al. I have a 460 S&W in their 8 3/8" X-frame and love it. I have the 500 S&W in a BFR 7 1/2" single action and it is definately a hand (or 2) full.

However, if using it to hunt or as a back-up for bear, especially grizzleys, get a short enough barrel that you can get it in your mouth...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 03:32:41 (ZULU)

There is a 3/4 size "Wall" based in my home town, that travels around the country. I am not sure how many others exist. It gets set up on the HS football field, and is open all night long. People go out there at night, walk along it, and leave in silence.

http://notesfromsedro-woolley.blogspot.com/2006/06/wall.html

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 03:48:09 (ZULU)

JR-"That must be one o dem hairless bipods...."

HUH????????????????????????????????????? WTF, over.

WR Moore
Monday, August 7, 2006, at 06:39:48 (ZULU)

WR Moore:

I believe it is a play on "Harris bipod", but that's not the whole joke.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 11:58:11 (ZULU)

I've got a question about twist rates in M70's. (.308)

When did Winchester go to the 1:10 rate?

I'm talking HVB's, Stealths and Stealth II's.

I have a Stealth and was under the impression it had a 1:10 but it doesn't. Now where I got that impression, I have no idea.

'Lito or anyone gots an answer for me? Thanks in advance.

John

John Hugdahl
WI, - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 14:11:30 (ZULU)

I thought that all the .308's were 1/12 twists!

ALAN

Alan
Monday, August 7, 2006, at 14:39:03 (ZULU)

As far as I know... they did not go to a 10" twist.

What do you do when you have such good news for the shooting industry that you want to scream it from the rooftops, and you can't cuz you promised not to say a word... :(((

I'm bustin' at the seams... it starts with "?".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 14:44:52 (ZULU)

'lito,

I hope it's what I think it is! I've heard rumors, but none credible enough to post. A long-retired Red W employee who heard from a friend who heard from a friend type thing.

I can only hope.

ALAN

Alan
Monday, August 7, 2006, at 15:13:47 (ZULU)

ALAN...

This is the real deal - I know the principal (the future president).

Probably said more than I should.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 15:22:22 (ZULU)

Alan,

I have not shot the DTAC in my 6XC yet. I have heard that the 1-8 twist is marginal for them. They recommend the 1-7s for the DTACs so I really haven't bought any.

I am a pervert so I shoot all my bullets "Naked". I shoot the 107s and they are right at 3000fps out of my gun. It has a 24" Kreiger on it and was built for tactical shooting.

I talked to seveal guys on 6BR.com and some say you can shoot the 115s in the 1-8 twist but some 1-8s won't shoot them. I guess it all depends on if your 1-8 twist is closer to a 1-7 or on the 1-9 end.

I still may try some though esp since I was so disappointed in how the XC shot at 1300yds compared to the 123s in my 260. I was expecting the XC to out shoot the 260 not the other way around.

I am sending my old 06 off to make it a 6.5x55. It will go out today for a new Kreiger 1-8 barrel. So I will be looking forward to testing that with the 140s. I am going to stay with nothing but the

123s in my 260. They shoot so damn well that there is no need to

shoot anything else in it.

I am hoping the 6.5x55 will push the 140s where my 260 did but with better barrel life. I guess time will tell.

Pat
Monday, August 7, 2006, at 15:23:25 (ZULU)

HOT DAMN!

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 15:23:34 (ZULU)

Pat,

You've GOT to try the DTAC's. They really fly. I can understand your reluctance, 'cause they're only available in 500 lots and with your 1/8 twist you just don't know for sure. Tell ya what ....... e-mail me with your mailing address and I'll send you a dozen. Probably enough to see if your barrel will stabilize them. Your only handicap might be your barrel length! Just try around 39gr. of 4350 to start.

Have you checked out the "Gun of the Week" article about Darrel Jones' 6.5x47 Lapua on 6mmbr.com? Very interesting! Won its first 600yd match with a 200 on 20 shots! I think I want one.

I gotta hurry and go back to an irrigation project that I'm stuck working on :(( Be back this afternoon if I'm lucky ;)

ALAN

Alan
Monday, August 7, 2006, at 15:37:37 (ZULU)

WRMoore,

<<JR-"That must be one o dem hairless bipods...."

HUH????????????????????????????????????? WTF, over.>>>

Man, right over the head eh..Was that long ago, had to think about it myself, but was reference to the picture of the British sniper duo in a compromising position..click on my name to refresh your memory...Think about it, Harris bipod, Hairless bipod..the hairless being the shaved head grunt the squaddie was using for a front rest..

I crack me up!!

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 18:56:06 (ZULU)

Any of you guys read Ann Coulter's books? Her latest "Godless: The Church of Liberalism" ?

Saw her on TV, answering questions to a group of women who are in college or working post-graduate degrees, and interns in Washington DC. She has some interesting points about liberals, but really goes off the rails when she denounces Darwin's theory as a "bunch of crock".

When did she become a scientist?

Duman
Monday, August 7, 2006, at 23:11:16 (ZULU)

Gents,

Lito-san, pulled out that XP-100 .221 Fireball. You're right. It is a POS. So bad, in fact, that I could never foist it off on anyone else. Guess I'll need to keep it, shoot it, and kick myself in the ass for ever trading into it.

Of course, if I ever foist it off on some unsuspecting soul I'll be sure to let you know about it...;-)

Now I remember. The .20 VarTarg was Todd Kindler's brain child. If the press I read wasn't all BS it was a good one. Think I'll stick with the .221 and .223 for now. Don't get enough trigger time, as it is, without adding another caliber to the list.

Ah, 3-inch Magnums. Still see them for sale used. Sexy looking critters. Always wanted one in .41 magnum. That is until I picked up a pristine blue M-24 3" with round butt. Always wanted a .44 Special and have one now. Suspect it's going to be a perfect marriage of caliber and platform. Time will tell.

Alaskan Bear (Bare?) guns. Sorry, just have to draw the line somewhere. Packing something that should have wheels and a lanyard just doesn't cut it. If I need that much power I'll carry a shotgun and slugs or a rifle in a suitable caliber. I'm sure that the unwashed masses will think it's a great idea. Personally, I like the short barrel "easier to get in your mouth" comment. Don't think these will do much more that a .44 magnum with hard cast heavy weight bullets will do, IMHO.

J.B., Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. The fact that you remember him fondly is the best testimonial a man can have. Consider your time together as a gift and never forget it.

Sheep and Sheep Dogs Country: Re-read the treatise last night. Good to remind yourself of why we do what we do every now and again. Puts it in perspective as it points out that most "sheep" don't have a clue or don't want to have a clue. Firmly convinced some aren't worth guarding...would be nice to give a painless reality check every now and again, if we could. Wow, there's a concept. Reality based life! TV show should be titled something like "I was stupid"!

Work out program continues. Spent almost 30 minutes on the treadmill last night at a 3.2 mph pace. Light weight training followed. Will continue to step that up, but for now the ankle is not complaining to much.

Signed up to shoot the State LE Pistol/shotgun match this next month. Part of my "get back into it" training. Hope to do well. Shotgun has always been my favorite weapon. Will probably use my Government Model and Rem 870. Can't think of a better team unless it's my Mossberg 590.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, August 7, 2006, at 23:34:23 (ZULU)

JR-I thought you were either doing another dialect bit or referring to some fantasy I'd missed-involving shaved legs. I saw the pic just the other day, the least they could have done for the field expedient rest was to blank over his face. I hope the guy with the camera and/or the internet connection is in a full body cast somewhere.

WR Moore
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 00:29:49 (ZULU)

<What do you do when you have such good news for the shooting industry that you want to scream it from the rooftops, and you can't cuz you promised not to say a word... :(((

I'm bustin' at the seams... it starts with "?".>

Lito.......you friggin teaser.

Had a girl like you once, got me all hot and bothered in the back seat of a 58 Chevy then said it was time to go home. If it concerns ammo, rifles or optics come across with the poop. Promises are made to be broken......at least according to my Ex. BTW, what twist did you say our HBV's have?

300 mag Sendero.......

Now sporting a brand spanking new Lilja heavy tactical 27" 1:10 3-grove marked "M24" on the side of it :)))) Working up loads with RE22 as we speak. Berger 190's with 72.9, 73.1, 73.4 and 73.7 grain loads attempting velocity between 2950-3050fps. Berger 210's with 69.5, 70.0, 70.5 and 71 grain loads attempting 2850-2950fps. Win brass and WLRM primers for both set at 3.34 oal.

Sir Wes........

Easy on the comeback. Been there and have the scars to prove it. Hurts more and harder to heal the second....third.... fourth times. Scar tissue sucks.

Ann Coulter.......

Haven't read the book but would enjoy having her read it to me ;)

Back to canning and listening to the lids pop, Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 01:11:06 (ZULU)

I've got a Freedom Arms 475 Linbaugh. I've had it 15 yrs. and still have not mastered it.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 01:38:22 (ZULU)

"I'm bustin' at the seams... it starts with "?"."

"?" is "what" It starts with a "W"

Winchester starts with "W"

I give up, I don't have a clue

bomac
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 01:42:44 (ZULU)

Hey there Guy's and Gal's,

I am in need of a pattern, for a rifle case/shooting mat. I have no intention of business, or mass production. My better half/spotter/loader/cammo designer and her mother, are wanting to make me one. That's it. Now all they need are the plans. We would like to make our own little changes and things. Buying one, and then stripping it, just seems ludicrous to me, but that may be the way to go.

If anyone here can help,it would be appreciated. I figured this was the place to ask. We have already tried googling it, and found more than we ever wanted about doilies, doll dresses, quilts, and all that crap. Thankfully, my Lady would rather be in the reloading room, on the press, with me, instead of making, let alone having, that kind of B.S. Yes, she sure makes me happy.

Blessings all, really!

Sean

Sean Thomas
Winner-peg, Manitoba, Canada - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 02:04:28 (ZULU)

Sean,

This is similar to what I've got:

http://www.blackhawk.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=1773&d=

It's called a "drag bag" but IMHO does better as a rifle case/shooting mat.

Eagle Industries also makes the HSRC:

http://www.eagleindustries.com/MainProd.asp?scv=0

Hope that helps.

----

John Linebaugh once made me an offer to do a .475 or .500 conversion on my Ruger Bisley in trade for a first generation Colt .45 SAA I sent him to do some work on. I said why would I want one???? I really don't even like shooting full house loads in a .44 Mag. Told him I could understand having one in northern Wyoming where there's elk, moose and bear but in Texas? Guess I was being too practical. However, I do recall Ross Seyfried doing a test on the first .475 conversion and John droping a note to Ross with the revolver that he may have overdone it. Was like experiencing his personal earthquake. No thanks.

On another note, Mike Venturino once told me that Guns and Ammo sent him a 45-70 revolver to test. He shot one round through it and injured his wrist. Took him several months to get over it.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 04:00:10 (ZULU)

Alan,

Don't get all hot and bothered over Darrell Jones' 6.5x47. He gets out-shot by us belly-shooting tactical, excuse me, 'target' type .308 "hairless bipod" F-Class people all the time. And his SR3 10-ring is one inch bigger than ours. Just gotta get those .308's with SMK 190's tuned up and they'll get the job done. Just plain ol' Remmy 700's with Rock 5R barrels with the same (I think) chamber as the Sniper Country Limited Edition sticks that George built a while back. I may get my butt kicked for givin' away our "secret" configuration, but there it is. Anyway, just makes for better competition.

Sean,

Better make sure you have a good heavy duty, industrial, sewing machine if you're gonna use Cordura nylon for your mat. Just ask Undude.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 05:42:33 (ZULU)

I must have missed this part of the discussion. Old Fart (OF) that I am, I'm still using 175 SMK as my go-to .308 boolet. The hot numbers are now 155 Scenars and 190 SMKs? Yes? No? What powders?

CDC'
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 13:36:00 (ZULU)

jc,

I'm just lookin' at the 6.5x47 as something new to play with for next season using one of my Savage actions with (hopefully) one of JR's barrels. The Savage easy-swap barrel system makes it a piece of cake to change cartridges, only takes twenty minutes, and if not satisfied I'm only out the cost of a barrel. No downtime for custom gunsmithing and a whole bunch less expense. I'm playing with a .243 this season with a 28" Pac-Nor 1/7 barrel and getting terrific results using the Tubb 115gr. DTAC boolets. George Gardners success with this combo piqued my interest. I'd like to try something else next year, and the new Lapua cartridge sounds interesting. Sort .260 performance with a little less powder and a lot better brass.

As to the .308, well I've got several good ones! My favorite being a Terry Cross built M40A1 clone with an Obermeyer 5R barrel that I've been shooting since I got it from Terry in 2001. Nothing wrong with it, but it shoots so well that its consistancy has gotten almost boring ;))

Besides, if I didn't spend my time and money playing around with these rifles I'd probably be wasting it on fast cars and beer!

_________________________________________________________________

Mk4,

Big sixgun country - I remember a large photo that appeared in Guns & Ammo magazine, must have been in the 1960's when that rag was worth reading, that showed Elmer Keith shooting a custom .45-70 sixgun. The photo caught the shot in peak recoil, with the revolvers' barrel hitting the brim of Keiths' big ol' Stetson, pushing the hat off his head! The photo caption read something like " Keith says the recoil was 'moderate'"!

I'll stay away from monster handguns, 'cause I'm really afraid that kind of recoil and muzzle blast will cause me to develop a flinch that will carry over into my rifle shooting. Frankly, about the biggest handgun cartridge that I'm comfortable with is a .41 Mag with a 6" or longer barrel. Hawgs, It's OK to call me a sissy :))

________________________________________________________________

CDC,

I'm interested in some .308 loads with 155 Scenars and 190SMKs' also. The 185 Scenar might be interesting too, but I haven't heard of anyone using it. I've been using the 175 SMK/Varget load with great success for so long that I've ignored anything else in that cartridge.

C'mon hawgs, share your secrets!!

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 14:56:27 (ZULU)

My oh my! Here I take off for just a little while, and I’ve got 127 pages to read up on. Eh!

Avi, give them a little taste of what awaits them in the afterlife, bring hell down on them. God be with you!

Well, I think I’ll back off my statement made last year. Last year I decided to learn the 12 gauge, this year the carbine. Instead of saying I have no use for a smoothbore, I think a more correct statement would be that I have no use for a carbine. Everything we did from 20-25 yards on out with the carbine, I could do just as well or better with a rifle. Everything inside the 25 yards (with the exception of the hammer pairs) I think I could have done just as well or better with a shotgun. I’m guessing that later this year, my almost famous uncle Hans will need to build me a good 14” 870 to accompany my favorite rack grade ’14 (Thanks Doc!). So who’s up to telling me why this is a bad idea?

And speaking of uncle Hans, I feel the need to say that I got a chance to try out his S&W wheelgun trigger jobs. Since Sir Wes brought up the 44 SPL, I’ll say that at the first opportunity, my S&W 696 will get the VangComp action job.

The XCR works as advertised, however it does type 1 malf every time one of those problematic little dayglow orange plastic dummy rounds finds its way into the chamber. I took a trio of slings out, just to find what worked best for me. Simply put, the Tactical Intervention (TIS – and yes, I’ve still got the shirt LOL!) one point sling was by far the best. I’m about 99% ready to recommend this stick, with a couple of caveats. As for the accuracy capabilities of the XCR, I shot the Vlei clean (including one notorious headshot), repeated instant gratification on the 400 yard tower (day, max range due to my eyes) and 200 yard square range (night, max range due to my eyes again). Employed as a carbine, I can’t outshoot it.

This having been said, one of those caveats was supported by one of our own, Cory. This carbine, unloaded, was in the 9.25 to 9.5 pound range. No silly attachments, just 3 rail covers, a LaRue CCO / Aimpoint M3, and a Vltor mount / small light. If I were serious about carbines, I’d look into carbon15 types, or at least an ultralight. When your options are purchasing a lighter carbine or bigger muscles, a light carbine makes sense.

And while I’m thinking of such things, I’ll hit you guys up for another prayer request. Seems The Jefe isn’t doing well. Janell said that he just wasn’t up to a visit, mostly sleeping and either in pain or on pills for such. The way she talked, both The Jefe and herself were at peace over what is assumed to be coming pretty shortly.

It’s a bummer that (more than likely) Bub won’t ever meet The Jefe. Bub has already started harping on me about his first trip out there. This year he got his pic taken under the main gate though, so it’s coming. I figure I’ll start him off on the Browning Hi-Power. It’s the pistol with the shortest trigger reach I can think of, and the 9 with factory (extremely downloaded) loads should be perfectly acceptable to him. Any better recommendations? He’s just BARELY short on proper grip and trigger finger placement with my BHP (you hear that Wes? HA!).

Kittywhacker, good to hear about Redfield. BTW, I did get that tube in, literally an hour before I shipped out LOL! Maybe a new Redfield will join up with the older ones I’ve got, and the old Weavers will come to again! On SWFA though, they got my business for the Aimpoint M3 for one reason: the way they did Joe!

On our great sieve of a border, had two fed agents in my class. What they had to say about personally fighting the Mexican military in Arizona was interesting. Full incursions. This made news where? In the PRK while I was gone, some sheriff’s deputies got beheaded. Three of ‘em IIRC. I got the news from another guy there, and got verification. This should have been on page 1!

Ears country: at my pre-employment physical they did a full check in the booth. The guy checking my hearing said that I had tremendous hearing in two broad ranges, but one was really poor. Then he asked if I’d been around explosions or something. Uh, yeah. That’s it, and I remember the day. Couldn’t hear right for a week or so, and obviously still can’t hear right. Take home message, same as what The Jefe said: “if I’d known then that I’d live this long, I’d have worn hearing protection during all those battles in the Pacific”. I don’t let Bub shoot without plugs at a minimum, plugs and muffs often.

Pat, the Swede will handle the 140 class at 2900 fps plus. Go slow powder though, mine didn’t like stuff as fast as 4350, preferring the 4831SC. With a shorter barrel than I’m assuming you’ll use, getting up to 3000 fps was pretty well cake. One of the fellows I talk with swears by RL22, but I haven’t tried that myself.

Duman, I think her problem with evolution is really with the religion thereof. Darwin was right on the money, in Origin of the Species. Everything adapts to its environment, which we call evolution. It’s proven, and 100% fact. But leftists have turned what Darwin wrote into something that he never imagined, saying that all life on this planet evolved from some random amino acids in the ocean struck by ball lightning. It takes MORE faith to believe that bunch of bunk than it does to talk a Christian into believing that Koresh was who he claimed. Thus, as liberals use evolution, it’s a religion (completely unproven, and extraordinarily questionable as to factual basis) and a bunch of bunk. The problem is, most people can’t (or don’t) distinguish between macro and micro evolution, which is why she sounds silly. In my earlier days, working in organics (which is why I now hate organics work), I worked on interesting projects like artificial blood and DNA construction, with some of the top professors in the country. In my not so humble opinion, if what we are now is the result of chance occurrences, then teddy kennedy is a monkey’s uncle. Evolution is NOT at odds with what’s in The Book.

Bravo
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 17:00:40 (ZULU)

Bravo/Stan, thanks for nice word. You will hate me but I improved my One Point sling a bunch, since you got yours. Triad Tactical sells them now. The new one will adjust from litle guy to huge body armored guy in a one hand fats adjustment. Has dump buckle and does not lose its weapon height adjustment when you adjust for heavy body armor or no body armor. Its real slick. I dont think he has photos on website yet but he has a bunch in stock. This does to the one point slings what the Quick Cuff did to the shooting slings.

On heavy nylon sewing, the machine you need is an Industrial Walking Foot. Used around 1200.00. New about 2,000.00. You attempt to sew on home machine and you will kill the home machine fast.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 17:09:09 (ZULU)

Undude: "...one hand fats adjustment..."?

Great name. Some of us lard-asses appreciate truth in packaging.

CDC'
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 18:03:56 (ZULU)

Sorry I meant "Fast adjustment not Fats adjustment

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 18:26:20 (ZULU)

JB: Sorry to hear about your buddy. The "adrenaline factor" is one of the hazards of coming home--second only to internalizing the horrors of war, I'd bet. I hate to hear this kind of news. I know we (DOD) could be better at preventing some of the losses.

Rant: It the size, stupid! First and obvious--we ain't got enough people to spread the war out to. Second, we are so damned busy on both sides of the COMM-Z that we ain't taking good enough care of our own when our guard is down at home...just pooring it on for the next go-round.

You have to be brain dead or a SECDEF to not see this. Leaner, lethal looks good on a balance sheet. But, our enemies know our ability to reach out, aquire, precisely target, and generally womp their asses. So, what is their answer to lean, lethal formations? Hug them, blend in with innocents, and swarm at times and places of their choosing. You have to be a moron to think the badguys will just play into our strengths. Yeah...they can be suicidal--but dumb? Hardly...look at the Ruskies' experience, ours in Somalia, Israel in the border towns; the only thing "lean" will get you is a shorter battle. And I mean that in the worst way.

A few more active duty troops will spread the workloads of both war and refit. Then, perhaps leaders can take more time to know their troops much better at all levels--and stop the at-risk guys from making bad choices. I still can remember such a time...

Rant off.

Bravo: Welcome back from the fun. I'll call soon for the details!

Lito: I hope the mystery is what I (and others) think it is...

Drag bags/ shooting mats: wow, the eagle bag is freakin' nice...maybe more than you need for straight tactical use...but it sure gets'er done in the weekend warrior mode.

Working hard lately. Must be that "last full measure" thing I heard about. Heheh. It is hard to stoke the fire knowing the end is near. Chapter two is looking like it can be anything I want it to be, as well. Kinda takes my head out of current games from time to time. The best way I can describe my focus before/ after: It is like throwing a switch...very abrupt and total change of all that is important. I now must apologize to all departing soldiers of whom I thought less of for their "slowdowns" at the end. To not do so is to degrade your benefits, options, etc. To make the current job and the "taking care of your own" transition work is very hard to do. The 6-month transition period (ACAP, etc) is a write off by many units. Not here though. I'm on weekends, nights, etc. I even had one guy tell me to cancel my ortho-appointments so he could send me TDY for 4 months! Ha! Well, no matter how hard you try to be a team player---time may come to tell someone to go piss up a rope.

My timeline is come September, I take the 60/40 cut of effort for me. Then maybe I can get back on my bench and ring out some riffles.

Joe M
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 18:49:45 (ZULU)

'Lito,

not nice to keep secrets!! hah..

CDC,

<<<The hot numbers are now 155 Scenars and 190 SMKs?>>

Whatdya mean now? We've been discussing the 155's for a few years now..

Pat,

There's some new 6.5 bullets on the way, 130gr bergers and 123ish grain sierras...typical...Ha!!

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 18:55:35 (ZULU)

Another good day in court.

They lost all of their motions, I won all of mine - so far the score is:

Ruggus Rattus = 8

Opposition = 0 (aka G-O-O-S-E E-G-G!!)

It's lookin' better!

I used to be terrified when I went to court, but now that I have some experence and know how it plays, I'm comfortable with it (only took a friggin year :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 19:28:45 (ZULU)

Re: 155 Scenars

There's a pretty good thread on this subject on the Hide.

(click on my name)

There's an even better (older thread) on load work-ups but I couldn't find it. Look for the fella that goes by "Jedi." He's the one that's come up with *45.6gr imr4895, 210m, lapua brass*. I couldn't get it to work in my HBV on account of only being able to seat out to 2.80+. CDC's (or lito's) magazine fixit might just cure that and allow for a longer COAL with the Scenars.

Re: Elmer Keith

>>>barrel hitting the brim of Keiths' big ol' Stetson, pushing the hat off his head! The photo caption read something like " Keith says the recoil was 'moderate'"!<<<

Wasn't it Elmer Keith that said that the 30-06 was one of the best varmint cartridges he had encountered but not big enough for much of anything else? ;))

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 20:23:05 (ZULU)

JoeM.

"Hug them, blend in with innocents, and swarm at the times and places of their choosing".

HA! Haven't we learned a damned thing? Those tactics are straight out of Vo Nguyen Giap's battle plan for winning in Viet Nam! I think his words were "Grab the American by his belt and hang on tightly" or something to that effect. These ragheads are using our own history against us. It is criminal that we don't recognize this in the upper echelons and take corrective measures. We didn't then, and probably won't now. Meanwhile we needlessly spill the blood of our young men.

________________________________________________________________

Mk4,

Keith once called the .30-'06 a "popgun". Said it was OK for varmints!

_________________________________________________________________

Bravo,

Nobody should have to tell you why a good carbine can take the place of both your shotgun and your "battle rifle" for 90% of the uses that you're gonna put it to!

If I had to have only one gun I'd take my M4 anytime!

__________________________________________________________________

'lito,

Great news on the legal front. Keep giving them hell. Everybody's in your corner!

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 21:34:46 (ZULU)

About Big Boring Handguns:

Brought all sorts of guns up to Alaska that I haven't shot in 5 years. Hunt with a .338 Win Mag and sleep out with a .454 Casull Super Redhawk laying on my chest while in the mummy bag. Fairly reassuring.

The S&W 4"er loaded with USA 240 gr factory solids punishes my hand more than the SRH. I load a 340 grain Lyman cast bullet with almost 28 grains of 296. Pretty decent velocity, (I guess). Shoots pretty mild, good double action capability and control. Fired my handload into a big Cottonwood timber to test penetration. Wood was pretty wet, found bullet consistenly between 24 and 27 inches deep when I split open the log. Pretty decent performance.

Have read several accounts of AK guys buying the S&W .500 guns say they can't recover for follow-up shots, and that the pressure wave is so intense it sorta stuns them. Heard about a new "distress kit". An S&W .500 with a 3" barrel and a flare-gun, in a fitted pellican brief case.

When the bears and moose get tougher than Cottonwood timber, I guess I will have to trade up. Til then, I figure I am set.

edward hogan
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 22:39:38 (ZULU)

re: Asymmetric warfare

Alan - no fair!

I wanted to throw in the belt-buckle quote first {grin}.

I read that the VC were big on IEDs too. No startling revelation that our forces are facing more of the same in the sandbox.

Even if our opponents had no access to the prior history, someone would have independently dreamed up the idea eventually and it would have spread :-(

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 22:59:22 (ZULU)

Edward Hogan,

I saw a 50-BMG handgun, forwarded the photo to 'Lito. If I still have it, I'll forward the photo to you.

Duman
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 23:11:04 (ZULU)

Terror Report:

At Phoenix Sky Harbor airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a setsquare, and a calculator.

At a morning press conference, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales said he believes the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction. Al-gebra is a fearsome cult," Gonzales said. "They desire average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like 'x' and 'y' and refer to themselves as 'unknowns', but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country. As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, 'there are 3 sides to every triangle'."

When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction, He would have given us more fingers and toes."

Duman
Tuesday, August 8, 2006, at 23:21:16 (ZULU)

re: tiny big-bore pistols

I've seen the .50 BMG single-pistol in a past issue of American Handgunner. Adds a new chapter to the book on muzzle blast.

I've also seen a review of a one-of 12ga derringer made by a Philipino gunsmith from a 12ga shotgun (I think it was Firepower magazine). The reviewier fired 3 buckshot and 1 slug load out of it and didn't sustain a debilitating injury.

Or the single-shot pistol chambered in a .45 cal rifle cartridge cut back to 1.5 inches of case. (Handloader). They had problems with stocks cracking (Thompson-Contender chassis?).

Which I guess just goes to show that just because it can be made strong enough not to blow up in your face, doesn't necessary mean it's a useful answer to an existing problem...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 00:55:00 (ZULU)

Gents,

Bravo, good to see you back from the "ranch". Will call and get details later. As to Bubba using the BHP 9...well, I told you so. Good choice for the lad.

As to what's going on at the border...these reports have been surfacing for some time. Mostly in the LE community. Someone should be taking note AND taking action. What we get, information wise, is nada. Firmly believe that the lack of action and information is deliberate and that the people's eyes are being kept looking outward...by the current (and other) fracas.

Magnum pistol county: It's already been said. Sometimes you can have to much of a good thing.

'Lito...like the score so far...got'em on the run!

More later. Headed to work out and go on duty.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 03:12:07 (ZULU)

CDC' and Alan,

Don't know about the 155's, never messed with 'em enough to get 'em to fly right. The 190's, however, are another story entirely.

Lapua brass, 42 - 42.5 grains of Varget, Winchester large rifle primer, topped off with an SMK 190. Seat the 190's touching the lands and get ready to smile. Just about everybody at the club range is shooting this combo out of Rock 5R barrels. Extremely good results at 600 and 1K. Well, actually we have to drive a few hundred miles to shoot 1K. Scott Hansen (AKA Cheese) won the TN State F-Class Championship at Tullahoma last year shooting 190's. One of the F-Class "open" shooters was heard to say, "Damn, I didn't know those .308's would shoot that good."

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 05:32:10 (ZULU)

jc,

That 190SMK recipe sounds good. I can seat that boolet touching the lands of my Obermeyer barrel with a COAL of just 2.795", which will (of course) feed from the M700 magazine. I'm gonna try it! Thanks.

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 10:36:19 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info on the .308 loads. And thanks Geoff for the SS109 link.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 13:36:51 (ZULU)

'lito:

Great news, keep up the chase!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 14:01:49 (ZULU)

Links to 50-BMG pistols:

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2005/01/the_maadi_griff.html

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0600/601.htm

http://vfte.cyberpunk.co.uk/lofiversion/index.php/t3339.html

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/stupid.htm

The last link has a few other "silly" guns.

Duman
Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 16:22:59 (ZULU)

Sean, I make these, check out the links for info on the rifle cover and shooting mat. Also, like Jc said, you better have an upholstery machine if you're going to sew multiple layers of cordura, webbing, etc. You'll burn up your wife's home sewing machine if you push it too hard, don't ask how I know all about that.

The cover can be taken off in less than 5 seconds with the rifle sitting on it's bipod legs and can be installed in less than 15 seconds in like manner.

http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=004389#000000

If you'll go to page 3 and scroll down you'll see the stake pouch that I've come up with to hold the corner stakes.

http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=005397;p=3

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 16:25:36 (ZULU)

I've got one of Tony's TAB Rifle Covers and I REALLY do like it. My HBV stays in mine in my pickup wherever I go. Takes a few seconds to take it out. Reinforced in the right areas too. I'm also impressed with the Multi-Cam pattern that he uses.

Tony,

How much for the shooting mat?

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 18:49:17 (ZULU)

Sir Wes, on the border incursions, the agent I was talking with said that the investigating agency did such a good job of looking into it / evidence collection that there were still projectiles in the vehicle when they got it back. They were using their issue 11.5” AR types (IIRC, he referred to them as “commandos”), which surprisingly to me had no problems that I noted. His take on the subject was that it didn’t make news because nobody had the balls to say something that might be distasteful to one of the largest minority groups in the U.S. – illegal aliens.

Somewhat related, a pair of border patrol agents are now looking at 20 years each. What did they do wrong? Well, one got beat up by a doper smuggling in a ton (literally) of pot, the partner chased the doper. When the doper turned on the pursuing border patrol agent, pistol in hand, the agent put some rounds into him. Except the doper got away. The “bad” thing they didn’t do was report rounds expended. The doper testified against them, with full amnesty, after treatment in an American hospital. They’ve already been convicted in El Paso, sentencing is coming up. Not reporting rounds expended is 10 years mandatory, and they got nailed on other charges as well. This is what happens when you give people guns and an important job: they’re persecuted for not using proper manners while (inadequately) snuffing doper illegals.

Duman – boo-hiss ;-)

Patron Mike, the only issue I had with your sling was actually an issue with the stick. Why they put the sling mounting point where they did is beyond me, but unless I kept that trigger snap up, it would hang just low enough to interfere with the op rod coming back full length. The only time that caused any kind of problem was when I needed to lock the bolt back and show clear, the malf drills weren’t impeded. Due to the randomly mixed in dummy rounds, the trigger snap on the sling now looks “very loved” though LOL! I talked with Alex this morning about the minor problem points I'd found, he's addressed the sling issue already. According to him, I'll have the solution incoming, as soon as more are stocked.

Joe, let me know when is good for you, I’ll drop you a line. Same for you Wes!

Alan, I agree to a point. Obviously the shotgun and the carbine are interchangeable for the entire effective range of the shotgun. But then we get into other things... My XCR as run (no mud flaps / cup holders / fuzzy dice) was about 10.5 pounds loaded (I use steel mags). A rack grade ’14 is about 10.5 pounds loaded. I made mention of the fact that I was getting instant gratification nailing pepper poppers at 400 from the prone with the XCR. This was mostly due to the dot size on the Aimpoint, and I purposefully got the M3 with the 2 MOA dot. A 4 MOA dot would have covered the entire target, and induced misses (ask me how I know that one for a fact LOL!). 400 with a M14? Cake walk. The instructor harped on the fact that a carbine was good for everything, as in that neck of the woods (woods being a literal term) shots beyond 300 (except for ranges of course) were extremely rare, with less than 100 yard visibility being the norm. Where I’m at, there’s scrub (mostly sage) up to knee / thigh height, and sparse trees in clumps. Visibility is miles, until you get up on the mountains where the aspens take over. Even then, they’re sparse enough to be beyond close range. This isn’t M14 country, it’s 50 BMG country LOL!

I like the way you put it – a carbine is good for 90% of everything. If I lived in a place where visible range was limited to 500 yard max, a carbine would be my first pick too, if for no other reason than pure flexibility.

The way I see it though, if I need close-in (like stumbling across someone/something I shouldn’t) then a shotgun should be plenty good. If I’m going to need to make a shot at range, odds are it’ll be a longer range than I’m comfortable using the 2 MOA M3 Aimpoint at. Using that logic, I couldn’t really argue a carbine / boltgun combo either...

Bravo
Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 18:53:02 (ZULU)

Mk4, thanks for the plug on the cover. The mat is $63.50 delivered, the stake pouch option with stakes included is an additional $17.00

Tony Burkes
Alvin , Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 19:00:19 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Sounds like we're on the same page. Note that I said I'd take my M4 if I could only have one gun. I figure that if you're talking 500yds. and above that's offensive fighting and you've probably got some discretion as to whether or not you're gonna hang around and fight or save yourself for another day. If you're talking two guns, I'd have to opt for the M4 and a boltgun like my M40A1 clone. Not that there's anything wrong with the basic M14, mind you. If I thought there was anything wrong with it I'd have never coughed up the big bucks to build my LRB M14SA GI-style clone. The main reason that I'd prefer the bolt gun to the M14 in the above situation is that no matter what you do, scoping a standard M14-style receiver is somewhat questionable in the reliability department, but you of all people already know that story ;))

Take care,

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 19:57:34 (ZULU)

Tony,

Thanks for the links. I agree, nice pieces of Kit. (spelled with a kapitol K, so nobody screws that up) That is not what I am looking for though. I am wanting some sort of padded, tough, folding, gun carrying, laying in mucking, store my data book ining, non-slipping, stake downable (with your permission), re-inforced and non-slip elbow and bipod area type of thing. I could just sketch out what I want, but, communications with others, especially mother-in-laws get misconstrued. This is why I asked for patterns. I don't know shit about sewing.

You may know yourself, when going to the future inlaws, and saying "I would like your permission to ask your daughter to marry me", and they hear/think "so, you think we're rich and you want in on the inheritance too huh?". (humor intended here). I have a friend who sews leather. He has a bunch of big strong tough machines. Does any have a "walking foot"? I dunno, I thought they were bolted to the floor. He has a 'wandering eye', is that close enough?

My girlfriend is awsome, believe me. We were sitting in my 'office' a few weeks ago. She says, out of the blue, "we should paint your movie cabinets". (warning) I'm thinking, 'oh God, what are they gonna look like now'. I say, "what color?" She says "how about cammo?" I then say "Will you marry me?" (sorta bypassing the parents, but,,,,)

She has brought over cookies, made by her mother, for me. None left at home, I got the whole batch. Of course, I share, with her, I'm not greedy.

So anyway, to make a short story long, Serena, my girlfriend, and her mom, want to make me this shooting mat. Because of my injuries from my accident, I need extra padding, and stuff. This is why I am looking for a pattern. As I said before, this is not a business venture, or for profit. Just for me. There is a fair bit out there I can buy, but so far no information on making your own.

Any suggestions are appreciated. No, Serena doesn't have any sisters, but does have a single brother, whom is about my twin (fraternal, I look better) hahahaha

Blessings all,

Sean

Oh Yeah, 'Lito, way to go. Don't stop till you see the whites of their eyes, turning grey. Good on ya, for getting your boy home, the end goal.

Sean Thomas
Winnerpeg, where it's the season of construction, Wayyyy up north. - Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 20:15:34 (ZULU)

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Corbella_Licia/2006/08/08/1724171-sun.html

Altered war

Manipulated photos highlight untruths in Mideast conflict

By LICIA CORBELLA

Tue, August 8, 2006

They say the first casualty of war is Truth. Yesterday, the respected news agency Reuters issued an unprecedented announcement. Essentially, it admitted it unwittingly published propaganda as straight news.

In a released statement, the wire agency announced the withdrawal of all 920 photographs by freelance Lebanese photographer, Adnan Hajj from its database "after an urgent review of his work showed he had altered two images from the conflict between Israel and the armed group Hezbollah," said the statement.

Wishful thinking on Reuters' part.

The breaches go far deeper than just two photos.

The "urgent review" was initiated after numerous examples of staged "rescue" photos were shown on numerous blogs on the Internet including: http://powerlinblog.com/archives/014919.php and http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html and http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184206.php

Global picture editor Tom Szlukovenyi said: "There is no graver breach of Reuters standards for our photographers than the deliberate manipulation of an image."

Hajj has worked for Reuters from 1993 to 2003 and then again since April 2005.

One has to wonder what other propaganda has been disseminated as straight news by Hajj.

The statement continues: "Reuters ended its relationship with Hajj on Sunday after it found that a photograph he had taken of the aftermath of an Israeli air strike on suburban Beirut had been manipulated using Photoshop software to show more and darker smoke rising from buildings.

"An immediate enquiry began into Hajj's other work," continued the Reuters statement.

It established yesterday that a photograph of an Israeli F-16 fighter over Nabatiyeh, southern Lebanon and dated Aug. 2, had also been doctored to increase the number of flares dropped by the plane from one to three.

"Manipulating photographs in this way is entirely unacceptable and contrary to all the principles consistently held by Reuters throughout its long and distinguished history. It undermines not only our reputation but also the good name of all our photographers," Szlukovenyi said.

But altering photos wasn't Hajj's only specialty. As http://powerlinblog.com/archives/014919.php shows.

On July 24 at 2:37 PM ET a Hajj photo shows a destroyed southern Beirut neighbourhood with a very distinctive building with a geometric design on the building.

On August 5 -- 12 days following that photo, Hajj sent out a photo of the exact same neighbourhood and the following cutline accompanied the

photo: "A Lebanese woman looks at the sky as she walks past a building flattened during an overnight Israeli air raid on Beirut's suburbs August 5, 2006. (Adnan Hajj/Reuters)".

So, the world believes Israel is flattening entire neighbourhoods constantly when in fact the same neighbourhood is repeatedly shown. Thank heavens for bloggers.

More interestingly, however, http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html exposes that these war photographers from various agencies are having the same "news" photo staged for them.

In this blog, the same child is seen being carried by three different men in their rush to get the obviously dead child to an ambulance. The photos were clearly staged for each different photographer over several hours.

Did the photographers know this? It's hard to know.

Yesterday, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora initially said 40 people were killed in an Israeli air strike in Marjayoun. Oops. Slight exaggeration. Actually five people were killed.

And remember the news from Qana, where apparently 54 members of two families were killed July 30 by Israeli bombs according to Lebanese officials? Remember how they said mostly children died?

Human Rights Watch put the toll at 28 killed and 13 missing. Wanna bet the missing 13 were evacuated to Canada? From 40 to five, 54 to 28. The Lebanese government claims more than 500 Lebanese have died since this war began -- a war the Lebanese terrorist group Hezbollah started.

So, what's the Truth? It's definitely less and likely a lot less.

Needless to say, it's sad that any innocent people had to die thanks to the lunacy of Hezbollah. It's particularly sad that Truth is killed again and again and Canadians embrace the lies of terrorist groups rather than the Truth of our ally.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 01:00:37 (ZULU)

Iranian Cataclysm forecast Aug. 22?

(click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 02:17:50 (ZULU)

Sean, you will be money ahead to just buy the mat you like, zip open a seam and add the extra padding. The problem is Cordura and other ,materials will cost you more to purchase enough for one than the mat does. Plus you will need a Walking foot sewing machine to do from scratch. To just do one seam you can do with hand awl.

You must have missed my earlier answer.

Undude/Mike

Tactical Intervention

Mike Miller
Ca, - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 02:20:00 (ZULU)

Mike (UnDude)

Thank you. I hadn't thought about the base cost of material. Good suggestion. I am thinking closed cell foam, for more padding, as well as more displacement. This will also help with waterproofing. This whole thing is interesting to me, but I am starting from the beginning, thats for sure.

I am thinking more of the Eagle shooting mat, with the Blackhawk extra pockets and stuff. That was initial direction.

Thanks for the input Mike, and everyone.

Blessings,

Sean

Edited to add: I like most the "Galati Gear Deluxe Shooting Mat". Gotta get me one of those. Has anyone here used one?

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 03:08:55 (ZULU)

I have seen both Bullet Trace and Vapor Trail. I need a reliable way to see the bullet in it's path to the target. In addition, I need a way to teach this to others. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Terry Balding
Sun Prairie, WI, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 03:48:31 (ZULU)

"In one squat concrete home, an American sergeant and about six Iraqis moved from room to room while the owner, an older woman in a full black abaya, sat on a bed by the stove and watched. When a revolver was found, she was told that it would be confiscated because Iraqi law permitted only one AK-47 per family."

From a current NYT article. I know it's sorta OT; I could not resist.

P. Hayden
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 04:58:05 (ZULU)

Terry Balding,

You say you want to see the bullet in it's path to the target.

From what position? Trailing, perpendicular (I wouldn't suggest head-on)? Need a little more info on what you're trying to do.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 05:10:11 (ZULU)

Terry, Trace is the only reliable way I know of outside of: Tracers, a lab with insane strobes and seriously fast film/ lens apperatures, or launching the projectiles at or below 800FPS (yeah....a 1911). Specialty shops (such as LCW) carry tracers, but I'd not shoot them in my barrels. Premiums also apply to cost, and drought conditions can be a problem. Burning up your favorite range and all that...Oh, and ferget about any of the above inside of 100yds riffle or 7 for pistol--eyes just ain't that good.

Lito: Great news...I'm cheering ya on.

Shooting mats: Long before these things became en vogue, I used my thermarest pad on the range for those lazy all day sessions. It was an integral part of my kit anyway, and it did the elbows nicely, though it was "slick" and made ya pay attention to position and hold. I'd forgotten about that what with all the new stuff...so, if ya go "out" for lengthy patrols, do you want to carry two mats? I haven't thought about that lately either--but I do believe my shooting mat would not make the cut to the ruck back when I was carrying one all the freakin' time!

Someone asked me what ruck I use: Large Alice, modified, mostly. I have a Lowe mountain (internal frame) that'll carry a ton, and a Molle that is comfy but frail. The lowe is a heavy mutha; and it'll pack its own weight in water if it rains. I just can't beat that alice.

Question: What is the latest and greatest waterproofing treatment for cordova nylon? What works good on suede (rough side) leather (no discoloration wanted)? I've always used scotch guard for most things, but that habit is from the 80s...anything newer and betterer?

Joe M
Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 05:42:14 (ZULU)

re: waterproofing agents

Here is a page from a Canadian retail textile outfitter for their waterproofing agent offerings:

http://www.justmakeit.com/notions/waterproofing/index.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 08:03:16 (ZULU)

A perfect invasion route for the Chinese. The paranoid among us should click on my name!

________________________________________________________________

Terry Balding,

If you want to see a boolets vapor trail from behind set up a spotting scope aimed at the target on a stand directly behind the shooter. Purposely adjust the spotting scope just a little out of focus and with a little practice you'll be able to see the boolets vapor trail. A trick that I learned from a Camp Perry shooting team coach a very long time ago.

_________________________________________________________________

Mk4,

I heard that Iran has promised to "light up the sky" on August 22. Some have speculated that it'll be a test of a nuclear device, and others think that it'll be a missle attack on Isreal.

If either event takes place I certainly hope that we have the balls to respond properly. I doubt that the rest of the world does!

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 15:44:06 (ZULU)

Galati mat: You could use that as a bedroll.

http://www.wiskur.com/shootersmat.html

Duman
Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 16:43:27 (ZULU)

Rod, as usual your wealth of knowledge and/ or research skills amaze! Thanks.

Lito: :>))

Wife is designing an arena (multi-purpose, the BIG one). The obvious location would sit astride my range, just in front of the 100yd target line. Says she, "Oh, but then that would limit your shooting, wouldn't it? I think I will clear some land out front then..." She's a keeper...

You guyz should see the Peanut ride! Hard to believe we're talking about the same little girl who spent so long in a hospital. For the old timers: She turns 7 this fall!

Duman: I no longer care how much my ruck weighs:)) I do care about wallet-weight though---so I'll force happiness out of the eagle...any back-country LR shooting would be in the Yukon valley or Colorado (not so much, 400 yds would be a rare shot there)...barring the apocolypse, that is...

Iran mouthing off; hurricane season, corrosion shuts off 8% of domestic oil, prices already hit 3.25, and every indication is this is an upward march. Europe and Canada can say, "So?--our prices have been up there all along..." And some here point to that. Simplistic analysis for impact. The difference is that we grew used to cheap prices, and demographics are vastly different accordingly; we spread our workforce out all over the map. And, with the decentralized sprawl--obvious solutions like mass transit are not viable. Visionaries (and the cash flush) can downsize their trans now, cut back on consumption, and relocate to a closer house to work---but yer average american is likely not in position to sell a house or move closer, is inverted on a gas guzzling SUV, and has unsecured debt to boot. The latter point is the weakness in the economy right now. The evil empire was brought low economically; anyone think the enemies of our nation lost that point? Hugo Chavez has spent an inordinate amount of time among the mullahs; China has strange bedfellows on both counts; and who's to say that the spot market bid-up by asian nations is truly pure demand. Hell, their using greenbacks to finance the purchasing--why not tighten the supply for the fun of it? There are only two traditional allies on this planet that do not have an anti-US agenda to some degree...the rest are tired of our power globally. This is independant of the GWOT, yet interdependant as well. I'd feel a lot better about us whistling past this graveyard if the tune was "The Battle-Hymn of the Republic..." Shit...we're outflanked economically, and nobody sees the growing threat because of the debate on the obvious threat! You also should bet your ass that they are related. The irony of the whole shitsandwich is that we, the US, are bankrolling this power play. Unfair trade practices for our exports go on, imabalances is the imports flow greenbacks overseas at unprecedented levels, nod and wink to foreign restrictions/ subsidies while allowing our products to languish---this is Federal territory--and it has been a status-quo for every administration since Truman. Those who say "oil problem is resulting from the connection of Bush/ Cheney to the industry" miss the mark by a whopping margin. That is stupid analysis; the real problem is the outflow of dollars to a world with an agenda. We're the favorite to win the superbowl---so even the rebuilding teams have a point to prove...

"The First Basic Law of Human Stupidity asserts without ambiguity that:

Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation."

http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/stupidity/

(or click name)

This'll at least make ya laugh about our problem...

Joe M
Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 18:02:35 (ZULU)

by Joel Rosenberg (author of the The Last Jihad, The Ezekiel Option and The Copper Scrolls)

(WASHINGTON, D.C., AUGUST 10, 2006) -- U.S. officials have raised the air security threat level to "RED" for "severe" risk of terrorist attacks. British authorities have stopped what could have been the biggest terrorist attack in aviation history, a plot to blow up at least 10 transatlantic flights from the U.K. to the U.S. This comes as the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks approaches, and just days after Middle East expert Bernard Lewis raised the possibility that Iran could be planning a "cataclysmic" attack for August 22nd.

British police described the airliner plot by radical Islamic jihadists as "mass murder on an unimaginable scale." Home Secretary John Reid said 21 people, including the main suspects, have been arrested. More suspects may be at large. AP is separately reporting two people were arrested yesterday in Ohio on terror charges. This is the biggest victory yet in the global war on terror thus far, but the threat is far from over.

Is there an Iranian connection to this plot? It is too soon to say. Early signs may be pointing to Pakistan. But consider the threat against the U.S. and England that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad issued on August 1st: "When I see the behavior of America, England, and their other accomplices in recent days, I get the impression that they are preparing even greater crimes. I warn them: Know that the fire of the wrath of the peoples is about to erupt and overflow. If you do not put an end to your crimes, know that the ocean of the peoples will soon rage. When the peoples begin to move, they will drag everybody to the defendant's bench, and will remove them from the throne of power."

Consider, too, the threat against the U.S. made by Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei on August 2nd: "Today more than ever, the Muslim peoples are disgusted and furious with the Americans. The Muslim governments, including those governments whose political statements stem from restrictions [that are placed upon them], are disgusted by the insolent and arrogant oppression and are opposed to it. The American regime can expect a resounding slap and a devastating fist-blow from the Muslim nation for its support of the Zionist crimes and criminals, after it has so brazenly violated the rights of the Muslim peoples."

As the investigation unfolds, it may turn out that Iran has no direct connection to this specific plot. But the threat is real and growing: the forces of radical Islam -- many, though not all, driven by Iran -- are engaged in a winner-take-all battle to liberate Jerusalem and liquidate Israel (the "little Satan"), and to annihilate the United States (the "Great Satan"). As the war against Israel continues to heat up, we must be especially vigilant for new attacks against America, Americans, and anyone who stands with us and Israel at this time. It is also time for the President and his top advisors to begin asking how much longer the Iranian threat in particular can go unchecked.

_____________________________________________________________

We've already been threatened numerous times by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Question is...are we listening??

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 18:27:57 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I recall when she was in the hospital. Made me smile to read that bit about her riding.

God Bless,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 19:59:14 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I taught my daughter to shoot my Glock34 when she was 12 or so. I used Federal Ballisticlean 9mm ammo. It uses 100gr bullets, and the recoil is somewhat reduced. We don't own a .22 cal pistol, but I figured it'd be okay. She is really very good. We spent several days going thru dryfire drills, cleaning procedures, and safety before actually shooting the pistol.

After her first trip to our range she was all smiles and said, "this is really a lot of fun" . I had a lot of IDPA targets and I told her to draw and fire one aimed shot, and reholster. She was told not to worry about speed, and just get good hits. We were about ten yards from the target, and she kept them all in the 8in. center with ease. Her second 20 rounds were to be double taps, but both shots were to be aimed shots. She was amazing. Her double sounds like one shot, and the group was about half the size of the first one.

I bet you could buy some light bullets and load em down a bit, and he'd be okay.

Best regards,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 20:31:13 (ZULU)

Alan,

Iran will light up the sky on August 22?

Whos's sky, and why August 22?

I think this crap all started with Iran back in the 70's while the Shah was still in power, and that maniac Khomeni(sp) was still exiled in France. I used to fly with a former Iranian Air Force fighter pilot who told me that on the day that Khomeni was flying back to Iran that he, and his squadron were in the skies attempting to locate the airliner he was on so they could shoot him down. He would always spit, and offer a curse anytime Khomeni was mentioned. It took him years to get most of his family out of Iran. Not all lived long enough to escape.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 20:42:39 (ZULU)

doom and gloom (ref latest UK airline attack plan suspects and new carryon luggage regs).

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/us.security/index.html

Remember the old days when you could take a laptop computer on a plane as carryon?...

If the security advisors prevail, no more battery-powered devices as carryon, ditto for anything beyond keys, wallet and emergency meds.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/10/terror.newthreat.ap/index.html

The upside is that boarding will be at least 25% faster and the overhead bins will be practically empty. Security screening would be faster too, not much hand luggage to paw thru.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 21:39:55 (ZULU)

rod...

>"Remember the old days when you could take a laptop computer on a plane as carry on?..."<

HELL... I remember the old days when you could take a loaded pistol on your carry on, and nobody gave a damn!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 02:03:56 (ZULU)

Thanks for your comments on seeing bullet trace. The format is shooting 4" baloons from a benchrest at 100,250,350 and 500 yards. You may know this as the Varmint Hunters Association Jamboree.

The sun is either directly ahead or overhead. The site has raised areas where the baloons are placed making it nearly impossible to spot shots by bullet impact.

I have setup my spotting scope directly above the rifle, just behind the shooter. Changing the focus on the spotting scope has helped to some degree.

Terry Balding
Sun Prairie, WI, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 02:59:31 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe,

Iran's claim for Aug. 22 -

Where? I believe that the quote was something to the effect of "we will light up the skies of the middle east".

Why Aug. 22? It's some kind of important Muslim holy day.

Mk4 posted a link to an article about this threat several posts down. It's interesting and well worth a read. It's not the first place that I've heard about this particular threat and I think it's worth heeding.

I know how many times Islamist threats have turned into just so much hot air, but ignoring them totally has proven to be fatal in the past. It only takes a look back to the (mostly) failed first attempt to destroy the WTC, and the Islamist rhetoric that followed. They promised to bring the towers down and we laughed at them, making jokes about their crazy blind cleric. On 9/11 the shoe was on the other foot.

At this point in the game they've got my attention!

ALAN

Alan
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 03:09:13 (ZULU)

Aug. 22nd is the date of Muhammed's "ascension", where he had a vision of ascending to heaven.

Iran is making some pretty damn bold threats. Hot air or substantive? I think this guy is a real true believer, and as such, he is the most dangerous threat we face. The things the hold people back from killing thousands of innocent people are missing in this guy.

The Iranian involvement with Hezbollah is right in the open. Very bold. I find it interesting that North Korea gets slapped hard every time they test a nuclear capable missile. Anybody stop to think that the Iranian revolutionary guard now has a shitload of test shot data and are pretty much dialed in after shooting a bunch at Israel?

The hadjis are smart enough to know that the chances of success for an airline based plot are very slim.

Considering that the world has done nothing of substance regarding their nuclear program, I am thinking that Iran WILL wind up with nukes. Will it be a suprise, or happen on the timetable that the world is looking at? Who knows. But things are going to get far worse in the near future regardless.

www.ki4u.com is getting some of my money in the next few days.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 04:24:05 (ZULU)

Here it is again.

---------

Re: Aug. 22

(snip)

".......Aug. 22 corresponds to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427.

"This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to 'the farthest mosque,' usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back," Lewis wrote.

In Islam, as in other religious, certain beliefs describe the "cosmic struggle" at the end of time. For Shiite Muslims, Lewis wrote, this will be "the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil."

The significance, he said, is that there's a "radical" difference between Iran and other governments with nuclear weapons.

"This difference is expressed in what can only be described as the apocalyptic worldview of Iran's present rulers," he wrote. Iran's leaders now "clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced."

(snip)

---------

(click on my name for the entire article)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 04:32:58 (ZULU)

Gents,

We can only hope that Iran's "lighting up the sky" will be over Tehran...when a B-2 drops the big one on August 22nd...

Latest attempted airline bombings. Folks, the enemy isn't stupid. Believe it's a feint and the real attack will come on the west coast. THEN when our attention is diverted the east coast will get hammered.

We seem to be fixated on the treat being from the east. My bet is delivery of a device with come from the North or South. Probably via pack mule/burro.

Iran having nukes or getting them soon? I'm betting that they already have a very small number of them. Believe that Isreal will be the target first. If there is no Jewish State left there will be no reason for us to continue to support them. Hence the Jewish "problem" goes away for the Islamic Fundamentalists. Then they can start "cleansing" their own religious sects.

Growing movement in the country to pull out of the middle east. Trouble is that the folks don't understand the difference between a withdrawal and running home with our tail between our legs...

Recieved rubber feet for my P-H bi-pod today. Very nice. No more metal to ground contact. Increased the "footprint" by about double. Like them...I'm tactical.

Yes, in case you're wondering I AM PISSED at the current state of world affairs and the lack of action by anyone but the Isreali's. If I were younger I might be willing to immigrate...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 05:44:30 (ZULU)

Alan,

Thanks. I read the link Mk4 posted. Who knows for sure what that whacko is thinking? Maybe they got a nuke and plan to test it, or maybe we'll get lucky and they will blow themselves to hell with it.

Couple years ago I had to attend a class on Islam. These two female american muslims, and this one muslim guy taught the class. They were really interested in making sure we understood that Islam was not responsible for 9/11. I guess I must have gotten an F in that class because I still think islam was the reason they did it. I seem to recall that Hezbollah is the name for "party of God". I guess islam isn't responsible for that either? It seems that everything these terrorists do is in the name of islam. Yeah, I am sure I got an F in that class.

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 07:37:48 (ZULU)

Sir Wesley...

>"Recieved rubber feet for my P-H bi-pod today. Very nice."<

Where did you get them?

Bill Bledsoe...

Flunked your classes Huh?? Congratulations ;))

I flunked (with an "F") my political Science course that was tought by a Communist (in NYC)... he taught that capitalism was badd, and socialism/communism was good - my final paper made him sick (at least that's what he said). I appealed to the office of the dean, and got an "A"!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 10:55:22 (ZULU)

'lito,

Great news. Keep hammerin' at 'em and it will over before you know it.

Joe M.,

Hard to believe she's that old. Wonderful to hear she's doin' so well. I loved "The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity".

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 12:06:46 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Long time no see!! Good to see your back on again. I have a buddy with a 6.5x55 an dhe use the RL-22 and swears by it. He has his gun set up more like an F class gun with a heavy 30" barrel but I will be doing mine as a tactical rifle.

I hope to push the 140s around 2800 or so and get some decent barrel life out of it. I wish FN would come up with a crome lined 6.5 barrel then I would have it made!!!(HA)

Pat
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 15:17:21 (ZULU)

Gents,

Headed to the range. More on the "velocity" issue this evening.

Cat-whomper, got the P-H rubber feet from Tac Pro Shooting Center, 35100 N. St. Hwy 108, Mingus, TX 76463. Tel: 254-968-3112

URL: www.tacproshootingcenter.com $6.49 each (dealer price) and shipping.

More later,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 15:58:07 (ZULU)

"The things the hold people back from killing thousands of innocent people are missing in this guy."

Geoff: That is a fair assessment, but is too narrow a read on the psychology. From a western perspective, "missing" parts fits our understanding. But, for "believers" such as this, there is nothing missing. A personality disorder would be isolated to one individual, who may or may not build a cult of personality (also individual-dependant); but this guy is interchangeable with any number of adherents to the cause. He happens to be the devil we know, but rest assured: His replacement will be similar in all respects. Too many of his constituants see the chance for the 12th Immam in the near future. Palestinians (Jordanians and Egyptians in refuge camps, precisely) had an opportunity to move ahead on the peace plan, shed violence and corrupt leadership, and instead, they used that to bring in Hamas with ALL that comes with it. A statement is made. The rank and file want peace? yeah, ok...

We are not radicalizing anyone with our actions and resolve, while I am on this subject. Look at the five pillars; there you find "the one true religion" and that has taken hold as the prime. Now, I assert that Islam world religious dominance is an implied end-state in that pillar. I also assert that "believers" understand this to be fact. I'll go out on the limb by asserting that a radical sees this as "in his lifetime" while a moderate sees this as "inevitable." With world opinion divided, the west showing more and more weakness (re: appeasement) daily---that is shifting more from one camp to the other. Our actions in the GWOT are not the cause at all...it is our seeming indecision in executing the GWOT that is radicalizing more moderates. If I am correct, and I know that I am at this basic level--then decisive action will "re-moderate" radicals who sit that fence. Heheh--and kill those firmly on the wrong side as a happy aside. Be that as it may, do not look at this as a pathology of an individual. This is a belief-set that is very, very widespread.

The Madrassas teach an uncompromising supremacy of belief. Outside of Saudi, Pakistan is the leading center for this virulant education; and Pakistan has nukes. How long can Musharif live? How long can an unelected government stand? He's a decent ally, to be sure--but how tight is his grip on that nation? The danger is grave, and it is at almost every turn.

Don't take your eye off the glass ball. We just happen to be juggling about 12 of them right now...

(Economy and oil, Iran, NK, China, S. America and Chavez, OIF, OEF, the larger GWOT, Israel's predicament on two fronts, religious frictions, rogue nukes in the wrong hands, spread or curtailment of democracy)

The debate in our nation takes each one separately right now--each as an individual problem, indeed; even the obvious oil-arab-chavez-economy link is dissolved to separate arguments (are we brain-dead, or did we let the stupid among us have a larger role?). Looking at this off-the-cuff list---does anyone see common threads throughout...or is it just me????

We are walking into a dead end. No; make that "talking" into the dead end. I hope we wake up.

Mid terms will tell us we are past the PONR, I fear.

Joe M
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 16:10:33 (ZULU)

'Lito,

That class was not for college credit. It was sensitivity training of sorts at work. Yeah, I got an F for failing to learn what "they" wanted me to learn, but I got an A+ for learning the truth. They actually confirmed the truth for me.

Joe M,

Decisive action has always worked for us. I love that term, "re-moderate". The aside was nice too.

Yes, we've become so PC anymore that the stupid among us have a much larger role than they should.

Mid-terms are anybody's guess at this point.

Bravo,

Did you say that some American police officers were beheaded by Mexicans here in the USA? This was confirmed?

Best regards,

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 16:34:03 (ZULU)

Boris for President! Who's with me?

doug Sickels
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 17:00:25 (ZULU)

I'm with you. Boris for President!

Robert H
Afghanistan - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 17:17:07 (ZULU)

For those traveling in the near future:

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/threat-change.shtm

Duman
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 17:31:48 (ZULU)

Interesting video to see if my link works

doug Sickels
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 18:03:45 (ZULU)

Howdy Mr. HA! If you’re going for the tactical rifle aspect, maybe you’ll be going with a shorter barrel like mine, a 24”. If so, 2800 fps is C-A-K-E with those bullets. Not even beginning to huff. As for powder selection, even though I’m cutting my own throat, I prefer Hodgdons over Alliant. With Alliant, you know where your old polyester leisure suits went though. I’ve got the next project already started, just delayed a bit from all this close-in stuff. JR’s barrel on a push-feed Winny action (which started as a 270, so I’ll have plenty length), over a McMillan Marksman stock. Alan set me up with the rail, and hopefully I’ll have enough dough socked away for one of those S&B scopes soon. Should be a winner, I do believe.

Bill, aye, that’s what I mentioned. Sheriffs deputies killed on the Mexican border of the PRK as I understand it. I heard about it while I was at the ranch, and was talked about down there. A few folks (literally three) saw on TV and / or heard on the radio a discussion about this. The Sheriff interviewed stated that they’d been murdered, and a congressman (don’t recall his name) queried into the exact nature of their deaths. The Sheriff confirmed beheading. I did a quick search, and turned this up (Sheriff Kolender Confirms Beheadings south of the Border): http://www.plantek.us/

From the way this is written, it sounds like the killings happened in Mexico. That’s not the way it came across in the discussions. All I know is that there’s a virtual black-out on this news.

And it appears I may have spouted off a bit too quick when I said something about swapping off the carbine for a shotgun. After further cogitation, I came to the conclusion that the carbine has attributes that make it a better choice for close-quarters action, at least in some cases. Of course, if I could get a very light, very short carbine, that would be nice. What is the consensus of you folks on an ultra-light carbine, retaining 100% (or as close to it as possible) reliability?

And while I’m on the subject, I’m considering picking up several cases of new Hirtenberger 5.56 primed brass. Does anyone have any info on these? Good, bad, or other would be VERY helpful.

Patron Joe, drop me a line. I’m one report away from done for the week.

Bravo
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 18:52:59 (ZULU)

Doug: Now there's something. I wouldn't bet much on her longevity though. The telling part, one to heed, was the dismissal of all she says with the "heretic" label. Know the power of that easy waive-off; and begin to understand the futility of negotiations. Add that you, as an infidel, have no useful standing nor deserve any "truth" and let me know what concessions you'd grant. (asked to those who advocate such courses, not those here of course!)

Joe M
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 18:58:47 (ZULU)

Joe-

Looks like we read the same View. Yesterday I sent that stupidity article around to some of my friends here and got this reply:

"That is genius. It needs to be taught at Navy Leadership courses around the world. Unfortunately a large portion of the folks at Navy Leadership won’t be able to understand it. But on the bright side, they will be able to beautifully act it out for all others to see."

It's hard to believe that something so brilliant came out of Berkley!

Doc Mac

Doc Mac
A warm and Sandy Place, - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 19:00:09 (ZULU)

Joe

She's probley already dead

That Mohammad bastard looked like he was writing...

"Note to self, kill her tomorrow"

doug Sickels
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 20:02:04 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Ultralight carbine country -

There are several ways to fly, factory built or build-it-your-self,to begin with. On the factory built side, just get yourself a mint SP1 carbine and never look back! You're gonna pay for it, however. Another factory built lightweight carbine is the Bushy, although getting a good one might be the luck of the draw, and you might wind up having to send it back for warranty work, or decide to do the improvements yourself.

Building one from scratch is easy, as long as you adhere to the K.I.S.S. rule and don't let yourself get tempted by all of the aftermarket stuff that's out there. Trust me, for close-in work you just don't need it.

Staying with a 16" barrel will keep you away from the SBR nightmare, and a 16" will function reliably without some of the tweaking that the real shorties sometimes require, although I've got an 11.5" shorty that just keeps on ticking but I've had to massage it to get it that way. Get a chrome-lined "pencil" barrel, a Colt if you can find one, although Bushy's lightweight is no slouch.

Don't bother to free-float if you wan't to stay ultralight and also save money, although Daniel Defense makes a carbine floater that weighs even less (by a little) than the factory handguards.

Get a USGI bolt - Colt, FNMI, Diemaco, National Aerospace, or Rock Island Arsenal. Thet're all magnafluxed and proof fired and no one eles's is - I don't care what they say!

Get a USGI M16-style bolt carrier, one with the fully shrouded rear section. They ARE legal as long as you have no select-fire trigger group components.

Use a smooth-top hammer. One without the notch cut into the top front edge. Early Colt's had them, and DPMS still sells them. Use the standard trigger components, made by a top-of-the-line manufacturer for the rest of the trigger setup, but polish them and fit everything. If the pull doesn't suit you use a Tubb trigger spring. I wouldn't recommend any of the 'trick' trigger assemblies for this kind of build unless you just MUST have one, and that would be an RRA two-stage.

Install a SOCOM-style "Reliability Parts Kit" in the bolt. If you decide to do this build I can turn you on to where you can get the stuff to do it. It's really a piece of cake!

Use an M4 'H' or 'H2' buffer and a true USGI buffer spring, or if you want to get a little fancy use a Tubb chrome silicon buffer spring.

I'd recommend an A1-style upper with the simple flip rear sight. You'll more than likely have to use an A2-style lower. Just get them from a USGI-vendor like CMT or LMT, but there are others too!

Unless you just can't help yourself, just use a GI style A1 grip without the finger spacer. It's light and only costs about five bucks.

That should get you thinking ;)

ALAN

Alan
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 21:15:42 (ZULU)

Okay, guys...I'm baby-sitting army training...and am bored beyond belief. Sorry, that means I over-post (heck, I oughta post on the training sometime, at least certain aspects that will drive ya mental)...

Doc Mac: Heheh! Berkley, who'da thunk it. I enjoyed the realization that the "perfect bandit" was Marx's ideal--complete with static (zero) growth...and the reality (aka Soviets) was the same quadrant heavy on the stupid side...but other than the limited analogy--it was pretty dang good all around!

I am sorry to report that this weekend is "cowboy toys" yet again...nuthin' to add on the .260. I will run a measured rod thru the lands and get the twist though.

Blake is one helluva natural wing shooter. De-pigeoned my barn, and he was doubling up with a 20ga single shot! I'd go rouse them, and he sat under the loft door and bagged them as they shot out. I asked him, as he had no practice at rapid reload lately--"how'd you get off the second shot so fast?" He says, "dad, that wasn't fast...it was smooth." Be damned. He actually does hear my voice.

Geoff: Blake decided to hang out an extra week...

Bravo: Will call once clear of this tent. yeah, my office is in the field, sorta. I do have internet, AC and easy chairs though. The spoiled-pilot in me is hard to suppress:))

joe m
Friday, August 11, 2006, at 21:25:25 (ZULU)

Gang I stole this from another web site but it's just to good not to post! This just takes a minute and a GREAT way to THANKS our fighting men and women!

Sorry no hyperlink just cut and paste the address!

Lets say THANKS!

Sarge

http://www.letssaythanks.com/

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, August 11, 2006, at 21:27:11 (ZULU)

Gents,

Back from the range. Velocity results were the same as before. A ten round string giving an average of 2,736 FPS from a 20" Schneider barrel on the AR-10. Don't see how that is possible with a 175 grain SMK. Shot a few M852 loads as a control. Velocity average was 2,616 FPS.

The Chrony started giving me a low battery alert. Went to range bag...had forgotten telling the wife my 9V batteries were in there for the grand kids toys. End of tests.

At this point I'm not ruling out operator error, either. Seems like I was getting some erroneous readings from saved strings amongst my new data. Damn! Guess I should have stayed with black powder and #2 lead pencils...

We won't talk about my dismal accuracy...

Moved over to the pistol range and gave my Beretta 92 Compact a workout. Put about 150 rounds downrange with no problems. Groups were all centered in the kill zones, but way larger than I like. Luckily, things started tightening up a bit toward the end of the session. Finished by breaking out my Government model. Resulted in one ragged hole in the target. Guess this is a case in point that we should stick with what we shoot best and quit mucking about with the other stuff. That's why I usually have my Commander or Government Model on my hip.

Parker-Hale Bi-pod rubber feet. Good day for testing them and they came through with flying colors. VERY stable and really make a difference. Especially, on concrete. P-H bi-pods are darned spendy, but if you have one spend the money and get these. Does a nice job of quieting down metal contact sounds, too.

Joe M., everyone "just talking" is doing no good. UN decision to act is meaningless unless Hezbollah and the other nut cases agree to it...that's not going to happen.

Grand kids just arrived...more later.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 01:27:41 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

Just read your post and went back into my log book for my results with M852 Match ammo. I chrono'd a batch that I got from the CMP in 2001. Here are the results -

May 14, 2001 Temp. 85F Humidity 29% Alt. 4850ft. Oehler 35P chrono

Test rifle - SAI M1A, 22" TRW chrome-lined USGI barrel

MV at 15 ft from barrel 2568fps avg., SD 13

Ammo LC 91 Match LC-91M186-002 Lot

Just an FYI for you to compare to your results,

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 02:05:13 (ZULU)

On those beheaded cops...anyone have a name? I'd like to verify the story.

medicjim
Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 02:55:00 (ZULU)

Wes,

I recall a similiar issue couple years ago. My shooting buddy was using an AR10, and I had my M1A. Same ammo produced higher velocity in his rifle than my M1A. Both had match grade barrels, his a 20", and mine was 22". We shot a test group using the same ammo out of his early model Rem700 PSS with the 24" barrel. It produced less velocity than my M1A. My M1A has a Kreiger barrel with match grade chamber. Freebore was .015". For whatever reason his rifle produced higher pressure that resulted in nearly 100fps more velocity. We chronoed using his equipment,and thinking something was wrong we broke out my crappy little chrony. Not exactly the same numbers, but the spread between our rifles was nearly identical.

I have two M1A's built by the same guy. Same everything. There is a bit of difference between the two, but its danged little.

The only thing I can think of is that the chamber in his rifle was a bit tighter than mine, or the bore of his barrel was a smidge smaller, and produced more fps.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 02:56:38 (ZULU)

Alan,

Blast your ornery hide! ;o) I just happen to have an almost mint SP 1 that I never shoot. Guess I'll be forced to try out your lightweight carbine suggestions. Will probably be easier than trying to sneak a new riffle past the BOSS!

Joe M.,

A field office with AC, internet, and comfortable chairs!!!!! Must be the NEW Army. ;o))) More power to ya. Pilots, myself included, NEED all of those things.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The dusty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 05:03:06 (ZULU)

http://www.letssaythanks.com/

Go there like the Sarge said - it's a damn nice thing to do - these guys need all the "touches" from home that they can get.

Sir Wesley...

What kind of chrono are you using, and what load is giving you 2,736??

MedicJim...

>"On those beheaded cops... anyone have a name? I'd like to verify the story."<

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20060630-9999-1m30tjcrime.html

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20060623-9999-7m23decap.html

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060623/news_7m23decap.html

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=22460

http://www.newswithviews.com/Stubbs/rodney13.htm

http://www.atsnn.com/article/217347

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 07:15:27 (ZULU)

Iran's Head Hoobie may be planning to launch Armegeddon on Aug 22. Click my name.

CDC'
Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 14:39:36 (ZULU)

New service by Leupold...

The are now making custom elevation dials for their scopes - you give them the drop values at 100, 200, etc, and they make a custom dial for you... even for the MK4-M3 scopes - they have been talking about wanting to do this for years, and now it's available - it's a good thing!

http://www.leupold.com/resources/custom_shop/custom_shop.htm

There is another custom dial maker (name escapes me now) who is a small operation that may loose his investment.

lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 17:25:03 (ZULU)

'lito,

The Leupold custom elevation dials are featured in their 2006 catalog. They refer the buyer to a form on their website that they instruct you to print, fill out your specs, and send it in to the custom shop. One of the other new services that they're touting are custom finishes, including a somewhat radical 'splatter' color scheme. They also will custom letter their scopes and turret caps to your specs. Interesting! How about a Mk4 marked "Islamist Exterminator"? I wonder if they'd do that ;)

That other custom dial outfit that you mentioned is Kenton Industries. It looks as if Leupold is out to get all of the aftermarket business that it can, and to hell with the folks that actually developed the ideas. I suppose that you can say all's fair in love, war, and capitalism!

_________________________________________________________________

CDC,

For too long of a time the West hasn't known whether to take these threats seriously or to ignore them as the rantings of an ineffectual madman. Do we start stockpiling food, water, fuel, and ammo or do we just laugh at this fool? Do we launch a preemptive nuclear first strike? Or do we wait and take it on the chin like we always have in the past? I wonder what Nostradamus has to say about the coming events? ;(

_________________________________________________________________

Doc,

I've got a mint SP1 carbine too! Aren't they fun? One of the best firearms investments that I've ever made.

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 17:50:51 (ZULU)

Bill, the difference is the AR10s bolt opens slightly later than the M1A, The earlier opening bolt seems to waste energy and beat up weapons. Hence more velocity. This is on custom guns.

Now for the M1A. Try a 155SMK load and watch what happens. You can get good velocity from them bullets. I like IMR4064 for powder with that bullet in an M1A.

The problems seems to be the 175s in the M1A's and the 155s dont seem to have the same problems. Now I hear, but have not tried, new gas systems for M1As that allow bleeding off more gas so it opens later. I dont know if this helps kepvelocity up or not. I just know the M1As with 175s I use never get as good a velocity numbers as my AR10s do.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 17:54:19 (ZULU)

Gents,

Taking grand kids to the county fair shortly, but wanted to reply to some of your comments. First, thanks for all your input on the velocity subject, etc.

'Lito, the company Leupold is fixing to put out of business is Kenton Industries. They have been making trajectory matching turrets for some time. Have a set on my Obermeyer gun and they work great. Good folk to do business with, IMHO. It would be nice if the folks at Leupold established a working relationship with them, but given the Premier Reticle debacle that's not likely. Have probably bought my last Leupold. Find the new "Bully" tactics distateful and disrespectful of the little guy.

The load I'm testing was from a match shooter and he asked that I not publish it. Have to respect that. I will say that with one minor difference it is under the published IMR-4064 load data. Didn't someone once say that you can't get enough 4064 in a .308 case to blow the gun up? Not that I'm trying to mind you. Started working this load up from the recommended 10% reduction figure. ALL the cases look the same. Up to, and including the max load. Didn't have chrono data on the others. Sorry. Cases FALL our of my bolt gun.

Scary thought: What if the August 22nd Islamic "event" is tied to a hispanic uprising in our country? The potential catastrophe is staggering. As is the damage that can be inflicted on the sheeple...:-(

Alan, thanks for your data. It looks like I could get faster results with the schnieder 20" barrel and still be in the ball park. The whole situation is making me a bit nervous.

CDC and Armagedon: What are the libs going to do if all this is right and confirms what Bush has been saying all along? We could be looking at very nasty situation. From Iranian nukes and massive internal insurgency to all out World War III.

Think I'll get off the soap box and go to the fair. Then come home and double check some preparations. What a bright cheerful outlook this gives the day!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

P.S. Where did I store my Ka-Bar?

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 18:22:36 (ZULU)

ALAN...

>"I've got a mint SP1 carbine too! Aren't they fun? One of the best firearms investments that I've ever made."<

I bought one (a colt SP-1) in '93, cuz my state was passing an "assualt weapons" ban, and I wanted to get a few banned guns before the deadline. Bought the SP-1 and a Galil ARM folder in 308.

I thought I'd do the "improvement" list on the SP-1 - heavy barrel, etc - until I took it to a John Farnam course in urban combat... it cleaned everyones clock. After I made my runs, alla the other guys wanted to borrow it for their runs.

Needless to say... it remains unmodified, in out of the box condition, and is one of my favorites.

The definition of "FUN"!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 18:48:08 (ZULU)

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/08July06.html

08July06

The deadly "Hesitant-Reload," from a friend and student currently in Country:

"John, we've lost several troopers over here to the 'Hesitant-Reload Syndrome." This represents a flaw in our current training, and we try to correct it when guys arrive, but sometimes there is no time before they find themselves in active fighting.

When troopers reload their rifles, many commit the twin, deadly mistakes: They (1) stop and look down at their rifle, and (2) thrust their rifle's muzzle in the air in an attempt to gain access to the magazine well. Insurgent sharpshooters are waiting for them to do just that!

So long as they are in motion and/or using cover skillfully, our troopers make difficult targets, but, as you say in your courses, 'It's a reload, not a recess!' Many troopers act as if they get to relax and stop paying attention to what is going on around them when a reload becomes necessary, instead of staying in motion and being actively engaged visually, WHILE they are reloading. We have to constantly remind them to stay in motion and/or relo ad behind cover. Hesitating in the open to reload is suicide!

The second issue is thrusting muzzles into the air. 'Muzzle down! ' is a constant refrain around here, but new troopers often forget. Even when you are taking full advantage of the relative safety provided by good cover, a rifle barrel protruding into space is an all-too conspicuous flag and lets the enemy know exactly where you are and, often, what you are doing. When the vertical, protruding barrel subsequently tilts forward, enemy sharpshooters know you've reloaded and are about to fire over the wall. They just put their crosshairs where your head is likely to appear and wait. They're usually right on the money!

Tell your Marine and Army students about this. You must fight THROUGH your reload, staying in motion and using cover. Keep the enemy guessing! He should never be sure of exactly where you are or what you're doing or are a bout to do. Keep your muzzle down, always!"

Comment: This is sage, and hard-earned, advice from one who is in a position to know. Let us all take note, while we still can!

/John

08July06

It works both ways! This, from a friend and colleague who has just returned from an overseas tour:

"Amen, Brother! In Iraq, I habitually watched to see which way the muzzle, typically elevated, went when the insurgent moved. I couldn't see him, but I always knew in which direction he was headed. When the muzzle stopped and tilted forward, I focused in. I killed two via shots to the head, just as you described. I'd been following their movement behind a wall by the six inches of barrel poking up. When their heads appeared, exactly where and when expected, I was always ready. They never finished their prayer!"

Comment: Hope they're enjoying the seventy-two virgins!

/John

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, August 12, 2006, at 21:19:51 (ZULU)

Alan, you are B-A-D-D!! Exterminator LOL! <Do we start stockpiling food, water, fuel, and ammo> What's this "start" stuff? It's funny that you hit my four categories dead-on. Personally, I'll feel much better about that stuff after my next refund of federal extortion monies, but I say that every year ;-) MountainHouse has been difficult to get in the #10 cans ever since Katrina, but those nifty new-style vacuum packed jobbies are good to go. Just be aware they're smaller in serving size than the old-style pouches.

Patron Mike, with the '14, nothing matters but the port pressure. I've experimented significantly with powders far faster and slower than recommended. If a loader loads with an eye towards the right port pressure (and oprod to receiver smacking) instead of solely on the chrono, all is well. That having been said, Varget is in my opinion about ideal for the 175s. I don't hot-rod mine though, just enough to match the BDC. I like slightly faster powders for the lower weight bullets though, as even Varget can get a bit beefy with the lightweights (mostly though, that's probably me looking for pressure signs, not seeing any, and wanting to go for more velocity - if I do as I advise, pay attention to the oprod / receiver smack, that's not a problem). IMO, the reason the '14 chassis has problems with the 175s are because the .mil loading (since ATK took over LC) isn't optimal for the '14 as the port pressure is high. Probably because Varget and H4895 aren't made by Alliant. I make no warranty on what happens with the material after it leaves the plant. ATK could fix this, they just choose not to. It's not just this one item either. If it weren't for the government subsidies (like the LC contract), ATK would have sold / closed down the domestic powder production division YEARS ago. If in doubt, N135 or H4895 would be the best solution. Hard to overdo the port pressure with normal weight bullets using those powders, as you'll see pressure signs on the brass before the oprod starts smacking hard. If N135 wasn't so expensive, I'd use it on everything lighter than 175 grains. It's that good.

And lastly, I should mention that while I was at the ranch, I found out that some of my gear didn't work as expected. This won't surprise anyone, but I've been firmly married to 1950's technology when it comes to carrying my fighting loads. Except I prefer nylon to cotton canvas. It seems that the H-harness that I like proved bothersome when trying to get that square-on carbine stance. In the end, I wound up using what I thought would be fall-back (only taken for experimentation), and loved it. It seems Patron Joe has succeeded in dragging me into the present. Many thanks! What worked very well and dependably for rifle usage obviously didn't translate to carbine usage. I did have to hike everything up somewhat though, or else the mag pouches prevented me from doing the rice paddy squat.

Now the only thing I'd like to see is if I could get the same vest in multicam. The label says "MOLLE II VEST, FIGHTING LOAD CARRIER NSN 8465-01-465-2056" from SPECIALTY DEFENSE SYSTEMS. Anyone know of such an item, or at least something close in multicam? I purposefully rig my gear such that I can go prone (and supine prone as well) without laying on gear. Except for that funky SBU prone. I guess I wasn't meant for that one. This set-up did really well.

And while I'm on this, the next course I'm looking at requires "Level 3 rifle plates and soft armor, as well as a ballistic helmet". The pot is taken care of, the rest would be new for me. Any recommendations?

Bravo
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 01:42:02 (ZULU)

Bravosan.........Try this>>>>>>>>

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=MOLLE+VEST&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search

300mag........

Took newly rebarreled stick out today for breakin and basic zeroing. Ran 15 rounds of Black Hills 190's through it for a base line, cleaned every 5 rounds. Then started running some reloads through it. It does not like 190 Bergers at all, but it spits the 210's out like they were candy. The Boltster is happy. Ran loads from 69.0-71.5 in .5gr increments of RE22 and it put 2 shot groups in 1/2". No pressure signs at 71.5. My shooting bud and gun plumber Swamprat was smiling since he did the barrel and action work. Next step is the chrono and 5 shot groups to best velocity/accuracy node. He also advised that RE25 may be a good powder to try. I likes them Lilja barrels.

Butner.........

Next match is next weekend.

Montana Extreme........

I now highly recommend the 50BMG. DO NOT STICK YER NOSE IN IT TO SEE HOW IT SMELLS. Using the 50BMG with the Copper Creme was the cat's peejamas.

Time for my little buddy to take a bath, Bolt out!

Bolt
Good shooting today in........., NC, - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 02:08:12 (ZULU)

To All:

Permission to come aboard?

Mark Taylor

Mark Taylor
West Virginia, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 03:10:29 (ZULU)

Alan

Gotta go with Bravo on this. Whats this start stuff?

Hey, is this Mexican beheading thing true?

In all seriousness... there is no way, in my opinion Mexicans would start an uprising here. From what I've seen (much as I don't want them coming here illegally) they cause no trouble.

They are very polite and don't want to raise attention. However, I've been bitchen to the White House for years about the borders to no avail. You write to these pricks and never get any satisfaction.

I did have a serious problem with a Mexican at an Alice Cooper concert once not too long ago in which I wish I had a weapon with me.

Hey its the weekend, have one on me guys.

Doug

doug sickels
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 03:11:13 (ZULU)

Hi Mark,

Permission granted. Welcome aboard Sir! It's a great place.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The dusty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 03:13:34 (ZULU)

To Doc:

Thanks for the welcome; I feel right at home!

Mark

Mark Taylor
West Virginia, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 03:22:31 (ZULU)

Doug & Bravo,

I was refering to the collective "we" :) But personally, I still can't seem to store enough gas.

_________________________________________________________________

Bolt,

Yeah, I really like the 50 B.M.G. for copper removal during breakins. Used it on my last two - it's fast! Went to replenish my supply and found out that Montana X-Treme has changed the name to Copper Killer. It still says 50 B.M.G. Special Formula on the label in smaller print.

__________________________________________________________________

Mark Taylor,

I'm just speaking for myself, but you don't need permission to come aboard. Just jump on in and join the fun. It all tends to sort itself out sooner or later around here ;)

___

ALAN

Alan
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 03:33:23 (ZULU)

Alan,

My SP 1 is the 20" bbl. variety with the fixed stock. Other than going to a 16" bbl. and a retractable stock is there anything else I really need to do? Should I go with the other mods you mentioned to Bravo?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The dusty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 03:42:17 (ZULU)

Doc,

If your SP1 (20" rifle version) is mint and unmodified you've got the makings of a collectors item on your hands. I've got one of those also. Mine's even got an original Colt 4x carrying handle mounted scope with the BDC turret.

I don't believe in modifying these old gals, they're nice enough as is!

I've got three suggestions. One is to find an original SP1 carbine, but they're lots of bucks unless you can really luck out. Another suggestion would be to build a 16" upper that you can swap on your SP1 lower when you've got a mind to. That way you get to keep the collectors value of your original rifle and have a 16" carbine too! You can get a large pivot pin upper from Fulton Armory that will mate to your Colt lower without the need to use any Mickey Mouse adaptor pins. It's an A1M (or Canadian C7)style upper which means that it uses the simple A1 rear sight but has a forward assist and the "Brunton bump" fired brass deflector. I have one , and have built several AR's on them. It's a fine piece of kit. I can help with details if you'd like. Finally, you can build a really nice ultralight carbine from scratch using the suggestions that I made to Bravo. If you decide to go that route I'd be glad to help in any way that I can.

ALAN

Alan
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 04:15:25 (ZULU)

Alan,

Thanks for the info. As far as I know my SP 1 is completely original. The guy I got it from never did anything to his guns except shoot them a little. The Fulton Armory route sounds like it's the easiest way to go. Will let you know what I decide. I appreciate all the help. Thanks.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The dusty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 04:38:14 (ZULU)

A non-PC interlude:

"From what I've seen (much as I don't want them coming here illegally) they (Mexicans) cause no trouble.

"They are very polite and don't want to raise attention."

I grew up in a place where they were the majority. Social pathologies abound. One of the more unpleasant involves many-to-one violence. One-on-one they are no problem whatsoever. None at all.

CDC'
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 05:15:33 (ZULU)

Well, to be fair to youz guys, I have found a new outlet for my off-topic rants:

http://my-two-sense.blogspot.com/

I created a blog, and used a recent post here to kick it off. I'll try using that place to get political...and use this to merely sound alarms that impact sniper deployment/ employment. heheh.

"...and there was much rejoicing."

(I bet Rod R gets it:))

Now, to focus on the proper topic.

I have this insanely accurate hybrid ruger 10/22. It does rimfire chores to a high standard, it eats any fodder I feed it with minute of crow consistancy...in short, why change anything?

I guess I am wondering out loud about the .17 craze. I feel that if I step up to a 200yd capability--why not really kick it out to say, 600yds, and go for the .223. Wait! I did just that already, and I feel my small pest and tin-can problems are throughly addressed...so what gain is there between the two .22 brackets? Or am I missing the point? Is the .17 HMR just an excuse for another rifle??? Now that I understand:))

I guess I do not have enough rifles yet; I am looking at bigger variations for my next purchases...the little rimfires ain't even on the wishlist. But a bunch of folks are buying them in my circles...so I want to know why...

Joe M
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 17:30:09 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>"I guess I am wondering out loud about the .17 craze."<

I have several beautiful .22 rimfires - a Browning copy of the Winchester 52C sporter - it a friggin jewel. I have a 10/22 with a full fiddle-back stock - also a jewel... plus a Winchester 9422 classic, and a Winchester 310 for Ruggus Rattus, and a 320 for me (when I'm shooting with the Rat... so I didn't need no more steeenkin rimfires.

But, I bought a 17 HMR recently.

http://www.savagearms.com/93r17BTVS.htm

I bought mine because you can only use a rimfire rifle on state land, no .17 Remingtons, no .223's, only rimfires.

The 17 Hummer has more range than the .22 rimfire, but honestly, if it weren't for the law about rimfires on state land, I would NOT waste my money. My HMR cost $350 (plus tax), plus $110 (plus shipping) for a scope on it, plus $35 for Burris rings, over $500... and for that money, one can get a CZ 452 varmint in .22 hornet, and that's a lot more rifle.

Also, it really gets my goat to pay .20 a round for a rimfire cartridge!! I mean... gimme a friggin' break - that REALLY sucks!!

And the .17 MK2 rimfire is a dying animal.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 17:54:07 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I tend to agree with 'lito about the cost of .17RF ammo. That's why I still don't own a .22WMR. I did pick up a CZ 452 Varmint in .17HM2 at one heck of a price and as soon as I can get it scoped it will be sold. IMHO if I can't get it with a .22LR I'll go to a .223. As soon as I can get another upper for my SP-1 the next project is something in .204. 'yote-Bait swears by the caliber. Says it's really hard on 'yotes.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The dusty Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 19:41:36 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I bought a CZ452 American .17HMR when they first came out. Basic rifle cost me about $400. I like it 'cause it's more like a centerfire rifle than the majority of the rimfire-based .17's and it's pretty accurate, with it's ability limited to ammo quality.

I also have a Winchester-labeled copy of the old .22LR Model 52C Sporter, and that's one that I'll never part with. My other .22 rimfire is one of the older Ruger 10/22 Sporters with the checkered walnut stock that I bought back in 1976.

I had been using both of the .22's for shooting garden pests, mostly rabbits and ground squirrels, on my acerage for years but as the area became more populated the thought of richochets from those lesd .22 boolets began to worry me. I tried the light boolet "hot-rod" .22 loadings, but couldn't get the accuracy that I felt necessary.

As I live in an unincorporated part of the county shooting is legal on my property, but I didn't want to endanger any of my new neighbors (we've been here for 22yrs.) with ricochets so I gave a lot of thought to using one of my .22 centerfires with very light frangable boolets to do the job but if I loaded any of them fast enough to maintain accuracy the noise level became too high. All of these folks have been great neighbors, but I wasn't sure about how each and every one of them felt about me shooting next to their property lines and the noise level of centerfire rifles.

Along came the .17HMR! It's a lot quieter than any of the centerfires that I've tried and those little boolets just don't ricochet. Accurate enough for my needs it's found a home around here. I don't particularly like the price of the ammo, but I think that at $8 a box it's still cheaper than reloading for a centerfire.

The "problem" is that after several years of eradicatingg rabbits and ground squirrels with it I get to use it less and less as their population has definitely been on the decline ;)

ALAN

Alan
Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 22:46:00 (ZULU)

"...and there was much rejoicing."

http://catb.org/jargon/html/A/and-there-was-much-rejoicing.html

I *should* have gotten it, it was even vaguely familiar.

Phrase used in "Monthy Phython and the Holy Grail".

Looking forward to the ongoing blog, Joe.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 13, 2006, at 23:17:56 (ZULU)

Just finished watching the movie "World Trade Center"

Sh**han should be secured to a chair, with her eyes taped open and made to watch the movie for 8 hours, take her to a building and simulate the building collapsing, do not let her know it is a simulation, and leave her buried in the debris for 8 hours, take 4 hours to "rescue" her, then put back in the chair for another 8 hours. watching the movie and reciting the names of those that lost their lives in the attack.

Just don't subject her to real physical harm.

Then asked her if she feels like leading another protest in the near future.

Wonder what her response would be?

PC label:

Warning: No actual sheeple was injured during the above Fansty serino

However as this a fansty only and should not be tried at home, all stunts were preformed by professinal trained stunt persons. :-))

bomac
Monday, August 14, 2006, at 01:36:36 (ZULU)

.17 HMR shoots flat, is quiet, accurate and has minimal ricochet problems. I like mine.

CDC'
Monday, August 14, 2006, at 03:16:33 (ZULU)

Hey bros....

Doug Sickels- I pulled up that video you linked and saved it. Very interesting "debate". She's probably being sized-up for a pine box right about now....

Morgue- Checking in to see what you're up to. Joe S. said you had been training up north for a bit. Hope all is well.

L8R boys...

cmoore...

out...

cmoore
Dago, Kalifornicated, USA - Monday, August 14, 2006, at 10:39:43 (ZULU)

This is too good.

Iranian President Mahmoud Amadinejad has put himself up a new website. He's taking a poll and wants your opinion.

The question is:

"Do you think that the US and Israeli intention and goal by attacking Lebanon is pulling the trigger for another word war?"

Be sure and click on the icon that "sort" of looks like the U.S flag. to get it in english.

....and then let him have it ;)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Monday, August 14, 2006, at 15:35:17 (ZULU)

I watched part of 60-Minutes, where Mike Wallace interviewed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The man is a thug, a lying piece of Shiite. Some clips of the interview can be found at:

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml

Those Iranian elections were probably rigged, to get that goof elected.

Duman
Monday, August 14, 2006, at 16:33:36 (ZULU)

>>A non-PC interlude:

"From what I've seen (much as I don't want them coming here illegally) they (Mexicans) cause no trouble.

"They are very polite and don't want to raise attention."

I grew up in a place where they were the majority. Social pathologies abound. One of the more unpleasant involves many-to-one violence. One-on-one they are no problem whatsoever. None at all.>>

Ditto, was a miners brat in Grants new Mexico during the Uranium boom... Went to grade school for a while where was the only blue eyed blonde kid on the playground..Was THE minority, the perverbial turd in the punchbowl...Was sent to a gringo private school as soon as they could get me in, cuz even at 8-9 years old it was survival...Never so happy as the day we moved to the UP Michigan..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, August 14, 2006, at 18:26:21 (ZULU)

HEY dudes!!!

Colored grip tape for your pistols and such!!

http://www.kcskateboard.com/site

Preaching my first youth revival with my band this saturday. Pray for us if you are so inclined. 'dem Yamaha's gettin a workout man!!!

Sorry I dont check in here much. Just overwhelmed with my cup being filled... (See Psalm 23) lol

If anyone needs comm with me its goochkw@riflemen.net still..

Pray for Israel. Yael contact me if you see this...

Out here

GOOCH
Hot , a, - Monday, August 14, 2006, at 18:55:08 (ZULU)

WANTED:

Ultra Accurate Rifle System stock for a remington 700 short action.

Does anyone have one for sale?

Michael Smith

Michael Smith
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Monday, August 14, 2006, at 22:02:33 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Any updates on the 'meplat' trimmer?

BTW, which of the Carolinas are you in? Just had some friends move out to NC, just north of Charlotte.

Duman

Duman
Monday, August 14, 2006, at 22:58:53 (ZULU)

Don (UT): emails inbound...

Hey, get in touch with me about that used 5.5-22x50 NXS MLR!!! Or, if you sold it and forgot to update the emporium, talk to me about a new one...

Lito: If you sent a list, re-send it...:(( I may have deleted it in a spam purge...

Joe M
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 01:02:21 (ZULU)

Duman........

It's sitting on the shelf with the rest of the junk I shouldn't have bought. I guess I'm just not a meplat trimming kind of guy. Will probably be having a big sale on stuff this fall. Live and learn.

I'm about 45 minutes EastNorthEast of Charlotte. He's probably around Statesville.

F-Open rifle blues........

I hate having to make choices. Was much betterer when the only caliber I would consider having was an '06.

Boltster out!

Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 01:23:06 (ZULU)

re: F-Open rifle blues........

Man with one watch knows the time.

Man with two watches not sure :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 02:34:22 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I read your post about the last course you took, and your request for info on soft body armor, and rifle plates. I assume that you are talking about concealable body armor to be worn under outer clothing.

Safariland and American Body Armor(ABA)make the best fitting armor I have tried so far. I think ABA and Safariland are owned by the same corporation.

Stay away from any vests that use Zylon in the construction of the ballistic panels. Zylon has been found to fail after being subjected to high humidity, and tempuratures as low as 104F. That means any sweaty body is going to degrade the protection of the vest.

Gall's has vests and rifle plates listed in their online catalog. I was issued an ABA vest after completing my FTO phase. It has Zylon in it's construction, and new vests have been ordered from ABA that do not use it. But being a safety conscious guy I didn't wait for the PD to issue my ABA vest. I went to a "Saturday Sale" at the Gall's warehouse and found a brand new Point Blank level III vest that had been reduced to $225. Original price was $599. I got it for under $50 out the door. After my issue vest arrived I bought a Point Blank Tactical vest carrier from Gall's and inserted the level III panels into the new vest. Gonna add ballistic rifle plates front and rear. They aint cheap, but they're supposedly rated to stop multi hits from 30-06. They're also coated to contain any bullet fragments.

This vest is designed to be worn over the outer garments. I carry it in the trunk so its handy if I am driving that thing offduty. I have extra rifle, shotgun, and pistol ammo in the vest. Also handcuffs, gloves, water, and med kit.

I could have gotten one of those nylon mesh vests, but it doesnt offer any protection. We are trained to respond to "active shooter" situations, and I think this vest is the best compromise for me.

Best regards,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 03:01:56 (ZULU)

JR: " Went to grade school for a while where was the only blue eyed blonde kid on the playground..Was THE minority, the perverbial turd in the punchbowl...Was sent to a gringo private school as soon as they could get me in, cuz even at 8-9 years old it was survival...Never so happy as the day we moved to the UP Michigan.."

Let me guess; A lone kid your size NEVER bothered you. It was always 3 to 1 or better or was a much larger kid.

My grandfather refused to believe that bullfighting was dangerous. He said that, if it was, it would never happen.

CDC'
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 03:06:22 (ZULU)

17 HMR.

My solution was a NEF break action. I put burris z-rings and a BSA scope on it based on Lito's advice. 1 MOA out to 200 yards and the scope tracks the Hornady 17 grain vmax loading darn near perfect. It did take over 200 rounds to break in the barrel. Total investment was around $250 and I like it...I have a custom 10/22 as well.

Any comments on the CZ 427 with the HS stock (.223) or the Tikka T3 Lite.... I want a short, light .223 based bolt gun with DM.

medicjim
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 03:32:13 (ZULU)

Gents,

On the .17's. I couldn't get interested in them when I found out the cost of the ammo. They can't do much more than a standard .22 LR, IMHO and if I need something bigger I'll go to a centerfire a la the .223 Remington. Still have an urge to play with a centerfire .17 one of these days. Hopefully, that will go away...

Bullies: Rarely run individually. Seems there is something in the make up that feeds off other "compadre's" presence. Have not had any trouble one on one. A few years ago I was hiking and returned to my truck to find four hispanics checking it out. I asked what they were doing and got a surly reply. Then a couple tried to flank me. Simply, swept back my coat and put my hand on my 1911. All of a sudden it went from that to; "Hey, man. We don't want no trouble". Their withdrawl was immediate.

Just read "The Shooter's Guide to the Browning Hi-Power" by Stephen Camp. Good read if your interested in using a Hi-Power for serious work. Have three and love them.

Headed to duty in a few. Workout first. Starting to see some improvement already. THAT feels good.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 04:23:52 (ZULU)

Alan,

Your pkg. arrived in the mail last night. It was perfect timing I was getting ready to go to the range so I loaded your 12 rounds up.

I shot them at 500, 600, 700 and 800yds. I shot 3 shot groups like I normally do in my long range practice sessions. I shot the 107s first and then the 115s right after at each range.

I normally shoot at 6" paper plates at 500 and 600 and then 9" on out to 1000yds. I had a fairly good day for shooting the wind was only blowing around 5 mph gusting to around 8 mph. The problem was that it was a quarting tail wind when we started and within the hour had switched completly around to a quarting head wind!! But just a typical day for us.

The 115s shot just as tight as the 107s did and at 600 shot a little tighter the group was 2.5" but that could have been conditions too. I shot the group at 700yds in a full value wind and noticed the 115s were about a half minute tighter on the wind call. Once again nothing scientific because I never checked the true "0" on them at 100yds.

When I shot at 800yds I screwed up and put the wrong data on the rife. I put my 260 data on instead of the XC so I shot clear over the target at 800yds. But over all my XC will shoot them with no problems. I think the load of 38grs of 4350 is a tad hot though because I use that load for my 107s and I noticed some ejector marks on the brass with the 115s. I have the first gen of Tubbs 6XC brass and its thicker, heavier brass.

Thank you so much for sending me a sample of them. It will be something to look at in the future. I have enough 107s to wear out this barrel so I won't change now but if I stay with the 6mm I will definatly be looking at the 115s. Thanks again!!!!!

Pat
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 13:27:14 (ZULU)

Body Armor

Bill, I think you mean your soft panel is IIIA. Thats about as high as Soft Panels go.

Bravo, soft IIIa will stop all pistol rounds except the new FN 22 cal high velocity. That requires a plate.

Soft panels have historically been either Kevlar (Kevlar 29, Kelar 129) or Spectra Shield durivatives (basically anything than ends n "LON" Zylon etc) They start with lowest being IIA, the II, then IIIa being tops in soft Kevlar.

If its not Kevlar based soft armor stay the heck away. Too many fail after being heated.

Kevlar 129 is softer than Kevlar 29 but really pick what fits you best. I have Kevlar vests in conceallable and tactical configuration. Eagle makes a nice carrier that you can attach pouches to as mission requires. This will take either soft armor or hard plates.

Hard plates. This gets tricky because they are spec'd on not only what they stopd but how many rounds in certain area. Seems the companies really make this shit up as they go. Last I saw Diamond Back Tactical had about best prices on plates. Just get ceramic and not steel, as steel is heavier and sends fragents to meet unprotected parts of your body. They are rated Level3 and Level 4 with 4 being tougher. 4 is 30-06 AP rated and 3 is for AK fire.. Just watch wait so you dont end up like turrtle on back and not able to get up.

A good all around set up is one soft vest in seperate carrier, for plain clothes and low signature events.

Then have Eagle carrier with plates and load out for when poops hits blades.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 17:41:24 (ZULU)

I saw a Green Peace bumper sticker I loved...

GREEN PEACE (With a green 1911 under it ;))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 22:49:08 (ZULU)

Pat,

Glad that the DTAC's worked out for you. I think that people who say that a 1/8 twist won't handle them don't REALLY have a 1/8 twist. A lot of that going on with button rifled barrels.

I wonder how Tubb's new Norma 6XC brass is working out. Unfortunately, it came too late for me. Maybe a good thing?

________________________________________________________________

Sir Wes,

A .22RF can do everything a .17HMR can? No disrespect intended, but..

On what planet?

___

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 22:54:04 (ZULU)

Marius, See you in a few days! Looking forward to the bushveldt with you and Marnus!

JR, If you would be so kind, email me some contact info to get ahold of you to maasafaris at adelphia dot net. I'll be in Edinbourgh for the first week of Sept. Like to hook up with you Sunday or so. I'll bring a few pounds of sunflower seeds with as well. We're staying near the botanical gardens in New Town, but I can meet up with you about anywhere.

'Lito, Good on you! A father should fight for his son, and it looks like you may just be doing it right. Fight the good fight!

Later all!

Rob

Robert Martin
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 23:36:07 (ZULU)

Torf,

I finished reading "The Griffin", Paul Rosebaud's biography. It sounds like he was the single biggest contributor to British intelligence, of Germany, in WWII. It's unfortunate that many of his contributions are still secret, and we may never know the full extent of his efforts.

Excellent book, thank you for the reference.

Duman

Duman
Tuesday, August 15, 2006, at 23:36:15 (ZULU)

Conundrum,

We can't profile and screen individuals in airports, based on their physical attributes, because it's 'unfair' or 'unconstitutional', yet it's ok to tap my phones, analyze my phone records, acquire and peruse my web-surfing, and get records of my book purchases. Am I missing something?

Duman
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 01:16:43 (ZULU)

Duman: "Am I missing something?"

Yep. That is the question as presented in the media. It is, of course, based on intentional lies.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 01:32:06 (ZULU)

Duman,

"Am I missing something?"

In case you've been asleep for the last four decades .....

the answer is YES!

Folks like us just don't count anymore.

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 01:32:44 (ZULU)

Mark Steyn writes with deadly accuracy:

"Jens Orback, Sweden’s Minister of Democracy, said on a radio discussion:

""We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us.""

The mind boggles. Click my name.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 02:08:05 (ZULU)

Mike(Undude),

I checked my vest, and you are correct it is a level IIIA. That one is made of Kevlar, and it's a bit thicker than the ABA "Extreme" level II vest that was issued to me.

I have a hard trauma plate in the X-treme vest that is covered with some type of coating that is supposed to trap bullet fragments, as well as contain bullets that strike the plate at up to 50 degrees. Its not that uncomfortable so I guess for sixty bucks its worth the chance that it will work as advertised.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 02:52:39 (ZULU)

CDC,

My mind quit boggling a few years ago or it would have gone up in flames with all of this lunacy in the world.

The latest round of BS in Israel is proof that nobody is paying attention to history. I should have said nobody but the terrorists are paying attention. They aren't missing a thing when the apologists are blathering about "its our own fault" we got attacked. Actually some of it is our fault because the terrorists think we don't have the guts to win this war. I am not speaking about the troops, but the whiners in the state department, and white house. They see this thing as just another episode rather than as the war it really is. The terrorists know better, and they are committed to winning. Bad news for us unless our leadership makes drastic changes.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 03:16:02 (ZULU)

Bill Bledsoe: Direct hit. Giving Iran something they can spin as a victory is insane.

This thing is going to get much worse.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 04:11:09 (ZULU)

Alan, No disrespect either: But on MY planet! see, I don't ask a rimfire to do more than a .22 envelope; therefore, a .22 WILL do anything a .17 would in my world. I have a slew of 223s for extending that need...and the land to handle either in every direction except right out the front door (could hit the road about a 1/4 mile out there). I don't care about riccochets; and them ridges that backdrop 3/4s of my land will stop any 223 (or cannon, for that matter)....

But that is me, not anyone else. I saw the requirements others had, and that the 17HMR filled them nicely. I plan to move if encroachment ever got to the point where I needed to think quiet guns, no skips, etc...and that may be more expensive by an order of magnitude, but that is my idea of fun. You mileage may vary...

Bravo: Be in touch once agin, hombre--this time about this armor thingy we're looking into. :))

Anyone seen the Larue tapered base (SR25/ 308 flattop model)? It has quick release, and one-piece construction right up through the left half of the warne style ring integral to the mount...just bought one. I couldn't find the MOA of taper for it (but got it for under 2 bills)--anyone know what taper it has? It's going on the .260, along with a NF NSX over-powered 50mm scope with the MLR reticle (used--display model, eh?). It should be something to do a write-up over. I also have a Nikon tactical coming in a few weeks, will try that out too, just to see what's what (arms 22 throwlevers). See which returns closest to zero. Now, my money is on the Larue...but we shall see.

Found a little outfit in Arizona that sells once fired 260 brass (rem) for $150/1000. Anyone know where it gets better, or should I write a check?

Joe M
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 04:34:36 (ZULU)

Winchester is back in business...

http://www.winchester.com/pressroom/news/pressreleases/releasedetail.aspx?storyid=172

... you heard it here FIRST!!!

Dumang...

Are you missing somfin'???

Yup - you missed the last 50 years of "Social Change" - don't feel badd, I missed it too?

There is a new police order out. No "Perp" profiling any more.

So it goes like this.

The call out goes, "Be on the look out for a person of un-described sex (can't profile guys - have to look for women too), un-described hight (can't profile short guys, have to search tall guys too), un-described hair (can't profile bald guys, have to search guys with a full head of hair too)... etc.

When I was a kid, they looked for the person that fit the description of criminal who did the crime.

I have actually heard of charges of police discriminatory profiling in cases when the perp was described as black, and it was charged the the police were profiling because they only looked for black suspects.

CDC...

>""We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us. The mind boggles.""<

Tolerate us??? When they out number us, they will line us up, kneeling next to ditches, and behead us.

Joe M...

Buy the brass... that's a good price.

I haven't sent you an e-mail yet, I will get to it soon... I've been up to my ass in court shit and had another go in court Monday (everything was postponed), and three meetings this week.

Had on today, and one of the problems about this whole f**kin' process is that ALL of the people in the family court system are lefties and liberals - ALL are anti-gun, and most are social elitists.

Met with Ruggus Rattus' new court appointed GaL today. She gets $200 an hour for doing social work, and she's busy ($300,000+ a year for those in Rio Linda), and is wearing a rock on her finger that would make Liz Taylor whimper in shame.

In one part of the conversation, she asked why didn't "we" (my ex and I) consider sending Jase' to a boarding school like Deerfield Academy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deerfield_Academy

So I CAREFULLY replied that I wanted Jase' to have a broader social exposure and be schooled in an environment where he would learn to get along with people that are different, because I wanted him to be free to chose what he wanted to - he might want to be a teacher, an engineer... and I went down a long list. In the middle of that list was military, and as I passed that one, here face squinched up her face like she had bitten into a shit sandwich. Of course, when I saw that, I went on to make the list LONGER, to separate myself from the military thing.

But the social elitism these people have is an insult to the public. They dispise the military, the police, the DEA... they consider these professions to be lowlifes. Frankly, nothing would make me happier than if jase' went to the Navel or Airforce Academy.

And no, I can't get anyone else, cuz there's only 5 or 6 people in this field here (and this is a BIG section of the state), and the other's are worse.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 09:21:11 (ZULU)

'lito,

What a great way to start my day!!!! Great news. Thank you SIR!

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 13:33:41 (ZULU)

Pablo: "Tolerate us??? When they out number us, they will line us up, kneeling next to ditches, and behead us."

Only those of us who don't convert and aren't useful as slaves.

And who says that "profiling" is out? Don't you remember the DC Sniper affair? Those clowns were looking at us. It is not IF you profile; It's WHO you profile. Holders of the coveted "accredited victim" designation are out. White opressors are always fair game. My 70 year old, upper middle class, blonde-haired, blue-eyed step mother was pulled out of line for the full treatment while young Middle Eastern men walked right into the plane.

Speaking of accredited victims: Parkinson's conveyed sainthood and unchallengable moral authority on Michael J. Fox. All I want out of it is my own parking space.

Political rant off.

This 7mm wsm Coyote's throat lets me seat boolets to the lands and have cartuchos short enough to fit in the magazine.

How cool is that?

CDC'
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 13:47:50 (ZULU)

CDC...

>"Only those of us who don't convert and aren't useful as slaves."<

... and those of us that didn't comply with the gun control laws.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 14:26:26 (ZULU)

'lito,

So Olin leases its Winchester name and trademark rights to Browning, just another FN company, so that Winchester firearms can be made in Japan, just like Browning's are.

OK, the Japanese built copies of Winchester firearms marketed under both the Winchester and the Browning names in the past are high quality pieces. I presently own a Winchester branded Model 52C Sporter copy, and have owned their copies of both the Model 1885 High Wall and Low Wall rifles in the past. The Japs seem to do a very good job making Winchesters. Dare I say better than the stuff that has come out of the Connecticut factory for the past few years.

I missed the Winchesters, even for the short period of time that they've been off the market, so I should be happy hearing this news. I suppose that I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, so tell me why I'm still disappointed that this grand old name cannot be made here in the USA where it belongs?

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 14:33:02 (ZULU)

ALAN...

>"... so tell me why I'm still disappointed that this grand old name cannot be made here in the USA where it belongs?"<

Dudeski - NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!!

The 70's, the '94's the 1300, and all the other US guns are going to be made in the SAME New Haven plant (about 20 miles from me)... the other specials will be made off shore like always.

Don't let your heart be troubled - all is OK.

Martha says "... and that's a GOOD thing.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 16:17:58 (ZULU)

Foot-in-mouth award:

Larue mount, duly ordered, is on indef back-order. LT111 has not been made in about 2 years, and supply is gone. Larue has tweaked the design (perhaps less taper, this had 30 MOA originally). The design is on the board, but no start date has been set yet at the plant. Bummer. Plan A, which became plan B, is now once again Plan A: Badger 22MOA Riser rail and badger rings. Not one-pc, not QD...but then, it does lock things down...I just hope that JT has one on hand.

.260 Brass: Intentionally did not list "who" had it, and that was because I was about to purchase the last of it on the shelf currently. Blue Star, inc of Arkansas gets it in every few weeks (15012686443)---and damned good prices. Website: http://www.blue-star-inc.com/rbrass.htm, or click the name. heheh, it's not that I don't trust youz...it's that I am a greedy bastard. I'll admit it...

A. Uberti 20" 1873 Win-clones: The pair are very nice, beautiful even. One has an exceptional grain in the stock (wife laid claim to that one immediately). Both are well made all around. The lever latch is a cheesy tab, otherwise, very nice rifles. Someone bent the sights to be dead on at 50 yards at the factory too. A tad high for most action games' targets, but that's why Kentucky has windage!

A great big Tom is sitting 150 yards out, just above my 100yard target line. He's just hanging out the last 15 minutes or so. To make it worse, I have a stealth sitting here next to me, and a mag full of Vmax 55s on the nightstand...Ha, it must be a set-up. It is the biggest turkey I've ever seen though. Freakin' mutant must wait til legal hunt is on...:((

Well, gotta call JT. I'm anxious to get the 260 set up and tested.

Joe M
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 19:21:42 (ZULU)

Joe M: "A great big Tom is sitting 150 yards out.....Freakin' mutant must wait til legal hunt is on"

Ummmm.... you actually have Tabby-Tags up there? When IS the season for tubby-tabby's?

Winchester Stealth-II's have Bell and Carlson™ composite stock. How does this compare to the HS-Precision stocks on the original Stealth's?

Duman
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 19:31:00 (ZULU)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17562162&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=sword-fright--name_page.html

Blade control in Scotland. Get'em now, rules change 01-Sep-2006.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 22:52:38 (ZULU)

'lito,

It's great to hear that they'll be manufacturing Winchesters at the New Haven factory again. Thanks for the heads-up. I read their press release, but they didn't mention where they were going to be made. As soon as I saw Browning I started thinking of overseas manufacture, 'cause all of the Browning firearms that I'm familiar with are made in Japan, Belgium, or Portugal.

Now here's what it looks like happened through my eyes -

USRAC was manufacturing firearms at the New Haven plant with the Winchester name and trademark under license from Olin Corp.

Browning is manufacturing firearms at factories in Belgium and Portugal, and having firearms manufactured under its name in Japan.

Both USRAC and Browning were owned by FN (Belgium).

USRAC was having labor problems, and was stuck with a debilitating union contract at New Haven. Their problems were costing them lots of bucks.

USRACs licencing contract with Olin was due to expire. (About now I think?).

So the parent company (FN) closes the USRAC plant and gets rid of their labor problems by eliminating its union contract.

FN reopens the New Haven factory under its subsidiary Browning and signs a new licencing agreement with Olin for the Winchester name. They go back to work manufacturing Winchester firearms, but this time without the pressure of the old union contract.

They're happy, we're happy, everybody's happy but the union!

Smart fellas, those Belgians :))

This is all conjecture on my part, so tell me where I've got it wrong.

_________________________________________________________________

Duman,

I haven't played with a Stealth II, so I can't comment about its B&C stock, but I can tell you about a similar B&C stock that I bought this summer -

I was waiting on a McMillan A3 for a Savage that I was building but McM was taking forever to deliver, so I bought a B&C Medalist Varmint/Tactical stock so I could go shooting. This B&C is very similar in style to an McM A2, but has a full length aluminum bedding block and is made from a carbon fiber/graphite composit similar to an H-S Precision stock. From what I could see, its construction is close to their Stealth II stock. The fit and finish is as close to perfect as you can get on my example, and for the price it's an outstanding buy. I'm not so sure that it's near indestructable to Chandler's standards but it suits my uses. I think you'll like their Stealth II stock. BTW, the MCM A3 finally arrived and now it's given me an excuse to start another Savage build ;)

_____

ALAN

Alan
Wednesday, August 16, 2006, at 23:01:18 (ZULU)

Marty answers his own phones! Great guy to boot. Well, after hearing "weeks" from most of his suppliers, I called him direct, and he has tthe rail risers on hand. A little outfit in Texas had no problem saying "days"--they get my dollars, and a note-to-self for future business. I guess I talked to most all the players the last two days...almost called George...but I had better wait til next month or HH6 will cut me off from my funds! It has been a busy month for the safes.

So: The set up for this 260 will be badger alloy .823" rings, a badger 22MOA riser rail, a NSX 5.5-22x50mm (mirage has only been evident once on my range--remember that day Geoff?). A nikon tactical will bump the NF next month, and the NF becomes the excuse for silly 50BMG games this fall.

Duman: Turkeys get the nod for a week each spring and fall (april-october I think), by tags, and some counties are restricted to lottery. Landowner gets a pref, and multiples in my county--so I don't sweat it. I dunno about the rest of the state, but these birds are like rabbits around here--and they run out other upland birds :((

Now, in my multi-tasking life: Time to go frame in my workshop/ gun room in the basement. Once the frame is up, I'll re-wire the whole shebang (and lose the various decade-specific polyglot of wire codes that run all over).

I live in a fire trap...each wall I pull down has a new horrid surprise waiting...

Buy new. Fix-er uppers are fulltime employment. It crushes range time, and makes ya hate going off to war and other fun stuff. Now you know the real reason I threw in the towel on the career! I'm itching to be a contractor!

Oh, heck: I get another MRI tomorrow, with contrast agents. day after, i get to plan a surgery with my ortho-doc. Why does this slip my mind so easily? I really, really want to do this...and a root canal too....

Joe M
Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 02:51:36 (ZULU)

Greedy and slow! My lower traits are showin' today!

Bawhawhawhaw!

Tabby-tags! I get it now (use crayon-drawings for these jokes, please). I skipped over that "kitty" part somehow when I answered with a straight face....Duh!

Cats; is one out of the bag here with the Wincherrection?

Glad I didn't pay mark-up:)) I felt I could find a sucker sooner or later...

There's a Marksman II in 30-06 for 12 bills in town here. What should I do? I don't want an 06 on that platform, but would LOVE a 300WM if i can't find a 308. Can these things be so altered? Or would it be smarter to look elsewhere? Rechamber and mod the bolt face---dunno even what twist is on it now that I think about it. What's the advice on this????

(I have half a loopy paid for that I don't need anymore at same shop---could swap layaway items easily of this is an easy conversion)

Joe M
Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 03:08:37 (ZULU)

Gents,

Alan, for me the .17 vs .22 LR is not even a contest. The .17 will shoot flatter and is accurate, but at about 8 bucks a box isn't even a contenter. I can darn near by a brick of .22 LR for that. I'll put my old Rem 512 up against the .17 in the field and doubt you'ld see the difference. Beyond a 100 yards, maybe, but then it would probably be the man and not the gun. Just this old farts opinion, mind you. On the other hand perhaps me not owning a .17 is the real issue.

Good news about Winchester re-opening in New Haven. Your right, the Belgians are smart. Think I opined the same thing a while back...a nice ploy to get out from under the union yoke.

Joe M, let me know how the .260 is going. I'll have to look at my .308 AR-10, but it does have the LaRue one piece mount. I'll sneak a peek when I get home in the morning...going on duty now.

A 150 bucks per thousand for brass is phenominal! Not a good reason to re-tube the .308, though. At the rate I'm getting to shoot my rifle barrel will out last me. Who do I will the spare Obermyer 5R too? Am very interested in your .260 project.

Tribulations with the .308 velocity question will re-open this week. A trip to the range with a new battery. If results are the same I'm going to send the unit to Chrony for a look see. I still can't believe getting 2,900 FPS from my bolt gun using a 175 gr. SMK.

Turkeys, I have the same issue. Local range will not let us shoot critters on the property. So, the tom's get this conga line thing going about 250 yards out. Makes a fella twitchy.

Took the Luppie M1/LR off my .223 Stealth for the AR-10. Kinda regret it as the .223 is my more useful gun. Would switch back, but see this as a good chance to get a new Redfield 30mm in the near future.

All for now. Alan, try not to have heart failure about my .17 caliber comments. It probably goes in the "if I try it I'd like it category...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 06:42:01 (ZULU)

ALAN...

You are right on most of it, except the union - the union stays (though they may have made some concessions?)... the city of New Haven, and the state made big time deals on taxes and other stuff.

I am acquaintances with the guy that is supposed to be president... I gotta talk to that boy!!

Go Big RED!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 08:56:38 (ZULU)

So the Model 70 is not going away?

All my fretting has paid off?

Please confirm this news as it is new to me.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 09:53:32 (ZULU)

LtChipper....

You gotta keep up with the page. It was posted two days ago, and now it's been archived (Marius is FAST this month ;).

OK... I won't keep you in fits.

Go here!

http://www.winchester.com/pressroom/news/pressreleases/releasedetail.aspx?storyid=172

'lito

Here, Kitty, kitty, kitty ;))))))))

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 13:30:50 (ZULU)

Wes: "I'll put my old Rem 512 up against the .17 in the field and doubt you'ld see the difference."

With a 100 yd zero, the .17 is +.15" at 50 yd. The .22 is +2.75". The .17 uses a vmax at 2550 fps. HUGE difference. Different deal altogether.

CDC'
Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 13:31:11 (ZULU)

If only the world were this cool and convenient. Makes me wonder why there is fighting in Ireland. Click my name........

Also, check this one out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wUGO1lx_0

Travis Morgan
Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 15:51:16 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

What CDC says ........

Add to that the virtually no ricochet factor that's so useful for me, and that makes it a keeper under my present circumstances. I think the thing that some folks are missing is the fact that the .17HMR is NOT a plinker. Wasn't ever intended to be. Eight bucks for fifty rounds is still cheaper than reloading a centerfire when all costs are considered, and I've already got a couple of nice .22RF's for plinking anyway.

I'm not a rabid HMR "true believer" type. There are many things that it can't do, and cleaning them is a PITA, but I just felt the urge to try and clear up some misconceptions about it.

Oh, and don't worry about me having heart failure. But remember that I'm an old fart too, so mentioning heart failure might not be something to joke about ;)))

________________________________________________________________

Joe M,

I was the general contractor on my house when we built it 22 years ago, built the barn,all of the sheds, the dog kennel, fenced the pasture and corrals, and planted every tree and blade of grass. That's probably why we're gonna stay, at least as long as we can. Real Estate prices have been going crazy here in western Colorado for quite a few years and we're getting offers to buy every week, but you become very attached to a place that you've helped create. Besides, it's beautiful country. I just hope that the Kalifornicators moving in don't destroy it.

Enjoy your building projects, and I mean that!

_________________________________________________________________

'lito,

Are they bringing back the custom shop? That would be a very 'good thing'.

______

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 15:51:55 (ZULU)

ALAN...

The whole banana.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 17, 2006, at 16:24:59 (ZULU)

Hawgs.....

Do yourself a favor and grab a couple bags of these dried mangos. Will make you smack yer mammy! http://www.farawayfoods.com/driedmangoes.html

Joe M.......

You have a message RE: 260 brass thingies.

Boltster out!

Bolt
NC, - Friday, August 18, 2006, at 02:02:33 (ZULU)

Alan: Where is .17 ammo available for $8?

CDC'
Friday, August 18, 2006, at 13:23:36 (ZULU)

CDC,

I bought 10 boxes of Federal .17HMR this spring from a local gunshop - Jerrys Outdoor Sports in Grand Junction - for $8.00 a box. He said that he bought up "a shitload" of the stuff at the shotshow.

I was at another store just a couple of weeks ago called "A Pawn Shop" that does a very brisk business in guns and noticed that he had stacks of it on the counter at $7.99 a box.

But these are locals and don't do you any good, however .......

I recently got a flyer in the mail from Natchez Shooters Supply and they were selling CCI for $7.89 per box and Federal for $8.09. I realize that shipping will add to the price, but I usually order from them when I have a laundry list of misc. stuff that I need or thay have a really good deal on an item that I want. Their prices are pretty low across the board, putting places like Midway to shame! IIRC that's where I got the deal on those T10 Weavers a few years ago. Anyway, if you can piggyback the ammo with some other stuff that you want the shipping really adds very little to the cost.

www.natchezss.com

HTH,

ALAN

Alan
Friday, August 18, 2006, at 15:18:01 (ZULU)

Double Tap

Alan
Friday, August 18, 2006, at 15:18:02 (ZULU)

Gents: Would a 25X50 Leupold spotting scope be adequate for general use, in these days of giant objectives and variable power? I want something fairly compact, not real high priced, and of decent quality. The high end Leicas, Zeiss, and Swaros are not really an option at this time. Thanks for any advice or commentary.

Jerry Stordahl
Red River Country, MN, USA - Friday, August 18, 2006, at 23:03:44 (ZULU)

Jerry S; I have one of those little Loopie spotting scopes. Mine is an older one. I don't know if Loopie is still making them, I thought they replaced them with a variable.... Nice little scope, not the greatest for spotting bullet holes a long ways off. I bought mine for hunting use and was thinking 'lite weight'. For what I use it for, it works pretty good. Good Luck.

Joe Sinclair
Blitzburgh, PA, Steeler Nation - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 01:05:41 (ZULU)

Joe,

Checked out your blog: looks great.

For those of you who use them, how much variation do you guys see in the mass of 175 SMKs? I weighed 200 tonight, and got about 47% @ 174.9gn, and 30% @ 175.0gn. Nice sharp histogram, but I was still surprised by what variation there was.

Bill

William McCormick
State of War whether anyone realizes it or not., - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 01:34:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

Alan, CDC, and all. OK. I'll consider that the .17 HMR is flatter shooting, may have increased range capability, and minimal ricochet factor. Certainly, all useful attributes. Perhaps, what I needed to say is the .22 LR meets all my needs. So, IF I wanted to dabble with a .17 what would be your recommendation for a rifle? Have heard good things about the Marlin, accuracy wise? You gents are using what?

Dinner bell. More later.

S/F,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 01:51:36 (ZULU)

Wes

I have a Savage model 93R17. It has a heavy barrel and a synthetic stock. It shoots 1.10" inch groups at 200 yds. The gun cost under $200.00. I replaced the trigger with an aftermarket model.

The trigger in most 17 HMR riffles are bad. If you can find one with the accutriger, you will like it. They are clean, crisp, and adjustable.

Best Wishes!

Terry

Terry Balding
Sun Prairie, WI, USA - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 03:30:00 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

My .17HMR is a CZ 452 American. I improved the trigger with a kit made by a fellow named Eric Brooks out of upstate NY that consists of three different weight springs for selecting weight of pull and three different size bushings that enable you to select fit them to remove all creep. The kit cost me all of nine bucks and took about a half hour to install. I mounted one of the BSA 'Sweet 17' scopes in 2-7x using a pair of Leupold Weaver style rings with a set of Brooks 3/8 groove to Weaver adaptors. All in all a very sweet shooting outfit, but I'd like to try Bushnell's 3-9x version of their .17HMR BDC scope just for grins.

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 03:48:09 (ZULU)

Wes: CZ 452 American pillar bedded and trigger by Geoff Corn. 2-7 Loopy Vari-X II that I got from a pawn shop for a hundred bucks. Slick little rig.

Jerry Stordahl: That spotter is small, light, simple and durable. It works well in the field.

CDC'
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 05:36:07 (ZULU)

17 country???

I have a bit of a problem picturing a .17 HMR that shoots 1.1" at 200 yds - Hmmmm??

I have a BSA 6x18, and it's pretty Ok for the use, but I don't like the rubberish finish on the tube.

I found a nifty neato scope that I wish I bought.

Go to:

http://www.cabelas.com/

And then search:

Pine Ridge Tactical .17 Riflescopes

The 3x12 and the 6x18 versions have side focus (parallax), and guys that own them say that they are the best of the 17 BDC scopes around.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 05:49:14 (ZULU)

re: 175g SMK's weight tiers

I would speculate the weight variance you're seeing is due to output from more than one factory production machine being used as source of finished product. Even more pronounced for brass.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 10:51:01 (ZULU)

rod...

At Sierra, the very popular bullets (like the 175), have dedicated machines that run 24/7. The output from one machine is NEVER mixed with other machines. The output from one machine is isolated, boxed and lotted separately.

This applies to the other makers too.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 12:39:54 (ZULU)

A very good (but long) history of the M16, for those interested...

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 15:19:45 (ZULU)

Sharon,

An old story, told over and over and embellished by bitter people who have an axe to grind. It's full of half-truths and innuendos but makes great reading for the "Battle Rifle" crowd, whatever a Battle Rifle is!

Yes, there was incompetence bordering on criminal malfeasance by the DoD, the Army Ordnance Dept., and the authors saintly branch of service among others. And yes, there were definitely huge problems that cost innocent soldiers and Marines lives when the M16 was prematurely put into service. But the blame lies with the individuals who forced it into the hands of front line combat troops without the benefit of thorough field testing of the rifle and the ammo that was supplied with it. The inherent design of the M16 should not shoulder the blame for the lives lost during its introduction.

The fact that the M16 has presently been in service longer than any other Infantry Standard rifle speaks volumes about its effectiveness.

Dick Culver should just be allowed to stew in his own alcohol-drenched juices.

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 16:10:38 (ZULU)

Being an "old type" (WWII diesel) sub sailor, I have no experience with it..., just thought it interesting.

The link was forwarded to me by an "PTSD" ex (is there such a thing) marine...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 16:52:40 (ZULU)

Alan, I'm not going to take on the M16 versus (as you worded it) the Battle Rifle debate. But just as you don't care for some of those statements (half-truths and innuendos) I don't care for one you made.

You referred to the fact that the M16 has now been in service longer than any other prior to it. This is, as far as I can tell, a true statement. I'm not going to bring up the fact that the M14 is still in service, I'll concede the point based on "continuous years".

The problem I have with your statement is that one naturally draws the conclusion that since the M16 (in one form or another) has been in service longest, it must therefore be the best.

I would draw your attention to the fact that my father was the crew cheif of the then-new UH-1s in the very, very early days of Viet Nam. Guess what: those EXACT SAME airframes are in use today. As in, the airframe that flew over those jungles in the early to mid 1960s are still in the air today.

This doesn't mean that the UH-1 airframe of 1962 is the epitome of the finest rotary-wing aircraft in existance, it means that the DoD can get funding for refurb and retrofitting far easier than budgeting for an all-new bird.

Just because something is still in use doesn't mean that it's the best for a given purpose. There are MANY factors that dictate when or if something is replaced, quality and satisfaction with performance being pretty low on the list.

I noted at the ranch the mouseguns ran the gamut of manufacturers, gadgets, and everything else. The agents with their "commandos" never had a problem (beyond the intentional ones staged to practice malfunction clearance drills, and the occasional user induced malf that everyone there had at one point or another) that I noticed. At the end of the course, one fellow couldn't get off two rounds together, even after trips to the smithy. The rest ran the continuum between.

This leads me to believe that if I'd been issued "a good one", I'd be like you and completely satisfied. That wasn't my experience though, so I'm not surprised at the continuous and ongoing efforts by the DoD to find a suitable replacement.

Maybe I could phrase this as "the truth typically isn't black and white, but highly tainted by one's experiences".

Bravo
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 17:15:35 (ZULU)

Chronograph troubles. I have an old Dillion Millenium Chronograph, I have had for over ten years. Took it out the other day and got weird results.

175 SMK Fed and BHs ammo only went 2400 fps ten rounds spread of 15fps

45.0 Varget and 175s went 2500fps spread of 20fps

47.0 grains Varget and 15 Lapua went 2750fps.

Now all the brass showed signs like it was hot ammo and prior tests showed an avergae of 200-250 fps fatser with same load and lot of powder. Ammo felt going off like it was hot

So anyone have an explanation for this? I know the chrono must be off but have never seen one be consistant when it screwed up before.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 18:17:12 (ZULU)

Thanks Joe Sinclair and CDC: I bought a Leupold 25x50 just to see if it would fit my needs.

Jerry Stordahl
Red River Country, MN, USA - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 18:38:22 (ZULU)

CDC: "Jens Orback, Sweden’s Minister of Democracy, said on a radio discussion....."

Are these people that dense to really believe that? I think I'm missing sumthin'...

Gooch: good to hear about the kit!!! Makes me a happy guy today!

Joe: scanned the entire board twice, couldn't find the link to the blog.

Terry down the road/all, ref: .17HMR: Terry, you must have gotten a good one. The .17 is fast and flat shooting, but wind is an issue. I got all aflutter over a Savage bolt rifle I picked up at Gander Mountain. Ordered one of those BSA Sweet 17 scopes, mounted with Millet heavy duty steel rings, the ones with four allen screws each. Maybe I just suck, but I never fired a group that was smaller than about 5" at 100 yards. Of course, I never fired it on a perfectly still day either. Meh. I figured there's more fun ways to burn up that kind of ammo money to not hit stuff...

B&C Medalist varmint/tactical stock......I am going to write them and see if they will make one for a Savage long action!!!!

Stan: Ever consider you might be a tad hard to please? LOL!

:-)))

Have you tried the HK gas piston upper on an AR platform with a match grade 1/7 twist tube and firing out of the box BH 90 grainers.....this setup would seem to address most of your gripes with both the AR and the AK systems......I think some units are fielding exactly that right now. :-) Or, wait for the FN-SCAR.....I think the SCAR-Heavy in a carbine version might be a pretty sweet rifle! I'll take mine in 7.62 please.....but I could see you and Joe M. with one in .260!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 18:39:52 (ZULU)

Howdy Geoff!

Thanks for being my distraction from cleaning today ;-)

Difficult to please? Guilty as charged! My thought is though, if a weapon would fail on a cushy gig like a class, there's NO WAY I'd want to stake my life on it running after slogging through snow, sand, mud (in some other state), muck (say, a swamp in the same state I found the mud in LOL!) or anything else.

The worst things these sticks had to live through at the course was rain and the dirt blown back into the ejection port while using that funky SBU prone. That's cake IMO.

I've never tried the HK 416, but I've had some (insert adjectives here) words with the HK jokers about it, stripped one, and played with it (no ammo of course). As soon as I can get my hands on one, it'll be a major improvement to the contents of my safe. I even tried bribing a certain patron and a certain police weapons distributor into snagging me one (me paying everything plus), but they chose valor instead (GRIN).

On the SCAR, sure, I'll play when it all comes together. I will say this: my XCR (Americanized / refined FNC) did really well there, just like it had every indication that it would.

I'm with you on the -H, as soon as the XCR debuts in 308, I'll have one, and the quick-change to 260 ;-)

The thing is, after this much playing with the XCR, I'm more convinced it's closer suited to parallel the M16A2 than it is the M4. If there was such a thing as a "do it all" stick, I'd be more inclined to go with this in 7.62 NATO with a quick change to 223 and 260 available.

On the 16" 308 though, I would have argued not that long ago. It seems that things have changed.... either with me or with technology, I don't know which. The only other (besides myself) guy to not bring an AR platform weapon brought one of those Sproingfeld SOCOMs. This time, I didn't feel that the blast was egregious. I will admit though, I didn't pay attention to his stick during the nightfire portion...... I can't comment on how the new brakes flash. Maybe LOL!

And thinking of classes, seems like four of us need to make it to BadLands, eh?

Bravo
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 19:34:07 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I never intended to criticize the M14 in my post. As a matter of fact, I just read over my post several times in a vain attempt to find one negative word about the M14. Guess what, it wasn't there.

My beef is with Culvers one-sided hack job that he attempts to pawn off as the complete truth.

If you paid close attention to what I wrote you would have seen that I said that the M16 is the longest serving Infantry Standard rifle in US history. You don't have to concede anything to me, 'cause that is a fact!. The M14 hasn't been the Infantry Standard since it was cut in the late 1960's making it the shortest serving Infantry Standard rifle, even shorter (I believe) than the Krag! Just because there are M14's in todays inventory doesn't mean that they're classified the "Infantry Standard".

If you're going to criticize my post please don't attempt to justify your criticsm by putting words in my mouth. I never stated that the M16 was the best that is out there, but I certainly believe that its longevity says something very positive about it. Draw all the analogies you want using helicopters or anything else that strikes your fancy, but please don't embellish them with comparasons that are totally out of the realm of the facts that I've stated.

And no, I'm not about to allow myself to be drawn into a Batman vs. Superman type of debate pitting the M16 against the M14 or anything else for that matter. I stand completely behind my post, as it appears on the DR, without the addition of anybody else's "who shot John".

ALAN

Alan
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 20:52:34 (ZULU)

M16 platform wars? My 0.02: It worked for me superbly for 25 years of it's current run. That comrpised jungles, deserts, mountains, and arctic conditions; on six continents and many, many islands. WTF does a weapon have to do to get some respect from all corners? The dishes???

Hahahahahaha:))

To each, as they say, his own.

Disclaimer: For all but 4 years of that--nobody else shot my weapon before I did. I broke 'em in, and carried it and someone else got the hand-me-down. Luck, timing and circumvention of some rules or another may have played no small part. This is unusual circumstances, and the M16-series gets plenty of abuse and suffers poorly for it. An Infantry rack gun A2, some twenty years old and gauged only once per year if that, would not be my first choice for deploying fer sure!

Screw it; if you don't like average to poor condition guns---go SF. I tried to change that dynamic (a CO accompanying the armorer to 3rd shop will get new barrels)--but it takes every E5 and up to play to make it all better---and that just ain't in the cards for the "peacetime" leaders currently heading up the war effort. But the young'uns on the ground fighting it will know beter when their day comes:)) Let's just give them sumptin' far better than the XM8 POS to work with...

Alan: Maybe Bravo just felt like panning the '16 platform again and needed an excuse? It's just his way; his Quiotic quest for perfection demands a vent now and then...(Bravo: Ha--you'll never find nirvana in anything that goes boom. Build us a plasma weapon instead. No drop, no barrel erosion, not much recoil--at least none we can measure thru a shoulder, and brass is, well, no-cost)

This place cracks me up endlessly...

Joe M
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 21:30:31 (ZULU)

Alan, bro, I think you read me incorrectly.

I'm not saying you ever said a negative word about the '14. Not at all. I didn't take what you said as such either.

All I'm saying is that stating that the '16 is the longest serving infantry weapon (upon which we agree, just like I said before, not sarcastically either) doesn't mean that it's the best thing since the frogs invented the perfumed blonde hummer.

I'm not criticizing your post, I'm just saying that there are many reasons (such as I illustrated before) that the '16 could be in service this long, so assuming it's because everyone loves it is an assumption not in evidence of the facts. COULD be, but far from HAS to be.

That's all I was / am saying, not poking at you. Just mentioning it because the tendency is to read "since it's been in business the longest" as "it MUST be the finest because it's still here".

Like saying that pickles are poison, 'cause everyone you know that is dead has eaten one sometime in their life. While that fact may be true, causality between death and pickle consumption is extremely debatable. Longest service life and "best loved", "most efficient", or "most reliable" in our history singularly are all similarly debatable, just wanting to point out A doesn't always equal B.

Culver says "because of this, all is lousy, even today". I didn't want to see "longest service life in history" being taken as "because of this, all is wonderful".

Honestly, no jab in the eye intended.

Batman vs. Superman, I like that. I thought the newest movie did a lousy job paralleling the "Death of Superman" storyline though.

Patron Joe, not bagging on the mousegun, like I said, I've SEEN some of them work nicely. Mine hasn't so far (this one that Geoff built still has unexplored potential), and I think you probably hit the nail on the head about the hand-me-downs!

Bravo
Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 22:03:47 (ZULU)

A 17HMR that will do 1.1 inches at 200 yards? I'm not sure that it can't be done but I'd sure like to see it. Has anyone on the roaster got much time with a 17HM2? I'm thinking about one for rabbits here in Kodiak, so the ranges will be short, and shots to the head are the rule. I'm thinking about rebarreling one of my Martinis. Yes, the brush is a factor, I've lost 22 Hornet rounds that way, but generally try to shoot through the open. This is just to have something fun, (for me, not the rabbits) as the 22 LR will do just as well. Just looking for any advice and field experience anyone would like to share.

Thanks in advance,

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 01:26:56 (ZULU)

Well, third time's a charm. I like things I can take apart and look at better than computers. Although.... Sorry about the triple-post. Picture red face and gentle abuse from my better half. If she wasn't a better shooter than I am this would be easier to rebut.

Best to All, Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 01:53:32 (ZULU)

17HMR -I have shot several sub .5 MOA groups at 100 yards with the NEF....none of them more than three rounds <g>. I find the rifle and round to be very accurate for rimfire, but I'm still throwing a flyer every now and then. I cannot figure out if it's the ammo, the shooter or the weapon...

My average ten shot group at 100 yards will have eight in the 1" bull and two someplace else. The lousy trigger and external hammer are making things less than 'easy' and I'm a mediocre shot at best.

I'm just about to purchase a Tikka T3 SS lite in .223. It comes with a 22" barrel, 1:8 twist, DM, composite stock and very smooth action for just over five bills. If you are gonna crap in my wheaties, do it now, before I've spent the money.....what does the group think of this rig?

Oh...and all you .260 gas gun pioneers.............I've been tweaking mine for five years now. Be prepared for some unexpected variables <bwahaha>

medicjim
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 02:55:37 (ZULU)

Erik in Kodiak: The second to the lowest line in each post contains four ikons. Click the ikon with the red X and do the obvious.

CDC'
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 03:11:43 (ZULU)

Greetings,

Are there any others on this site who are using the Steyr SSG

P-II as their primary tactical rifle? Just wondering.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark Taylor
West Virginia, USA - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 04:15:46 (ZULU)

... and welcome to our latest 50-BMG shooter (Ala AR-50).

I won't mention his name cuz he's broke and living in his car now ;)))

Nite nite :))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 04:35:12 (ZULU)

Erik in Kodiak Country,

You don't get bonus points for triple taps. Try that handy dandy delete function CDC mentioned..

Medicjim,

Do a little more research on that T3 lite, they had a problem not all that long ago with their stainless barrels comin apart at the seams..Get the serial no and check with Tikka before purchasing..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 08:24:02 (ZULU)

Jim,

Rifles affected had serial no's in this range:

419140 thru 461951

Still might not hurt to give Beretta USA a shout just to be sure..

Here's a link to why the rifles were recalled:

http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 14:31:42 (ZULU)

Mark Steyn writes: "...the issue (is) not whether the nation should have gone to war but whether the nation should lose the war.

"...the issue is the same as it was on Sept. 11: American will and national purpose. But the reality is that it's worse than that -- for (as Israel is also learning) to begin something and be unable to stick with it to the finish is far more damaging to your reputation than if you'd never begun it in the first place. Nitwit Democrats think anything that can be passed off as a failure in Iraq will somehow diminish only Bush and the neocons. In reality -- a concept with which Democrats seem only dimly acquainted -- it would diminish the nation, and all but certainly end the American moment."

Click my name.

CDC'
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 14:54:16 (ZULU)

Undude,

I had a Millenium and had difficulty gettin consistent results. I even sent it back for inspection and it was reported to be working fine. The owner suggested I use the filter screens consistently and always use exactly the same distance from the bore. I sold it.

The problem was probably that I was setting up under a large hickory tree every time and the light conditions were never the same.

John

Acehigh
Blmg'tn, IN, USA - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 15:21:14 (ZULU)

Bravo ........no harm, no foul :)

ALAN

Alan
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 15:51:24 (ZULU)

The virus bums sure like Gooch! My local phone company provides free virus and spam protection as part of its internet services. When I dumped the virus junk this morning, thirty-two of the thirty-eight were "from" Gooch. If you get any enclosure stuff from him be careful.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 16:09:55 (ZULU)

Bravo: Yep; I know what you were saying...I just couldn't pass up the chance to jab at ya on your legendary "testing" of various firearms.

Those who know his test plan also know that our Bravo goes to some extremes in his reliability testing. The funny part is that he is using HIS money for this--there are no "evaluation copies" provided. The rest of us mere mortals would never intentionally do what Bravo does to any of our "investments." LOL! But then, we also would make such investments after someone does do this torturous testing...so, I suppose i should stop laughing and say thanks to guys like you, Mr. Bravo...

Medicjim: I am in the process of trying to figure out why I have ejection issues on a Tikka. Hopefully I'll find debris in the plunger or detrius in the extractor that causes this. I do know that scarce parts and accessories have a lot to do with why these great-shooting riffles aren't more prolific with shooters. JR beat me to the SS barrel warning...

Mark: I looked into an SSG years ago--and in the original configuration the barrel and action are hot-pressed. That is, effectively making it a one piece affair. That is fine, as long as disposable guns vs. re-barreling is never an issue for you. As for the "new" version---check this out and see how it is assembled. Also, do some checking for mounting solutions for optics--it used to be proprietary. I dunno about the change-1 versions, but these were the reasons that an SSG never followed me home when I was looking at them...

CDC: Yeah, exactly! But that is just the surface of that issue. It is far worse for us if you add in a little history and understanding of the enemy's mind set. I'm personally starting to get a little "survivalist" mentality going. I see us traipsing thru the daisies on this--very few truly understand what we are dealing with--and the depth of the religious aspect is only just now occuring to me. Even those with a vague understanding of it will stop short due to their upbringing (tis why I was so optimistic a few months ago). I've been having a discussion this morning (at work-yuck) with a liberal nurse-type dude. His assertion that violence solves nothing was the premise for his arguements against our involvement in the middle east. I challenged that in a round-about way--and definitively proved that only the cessation of violence failed in solving anything. He is still mumbling over in the corner...it is rather unfair that I am a historian with practical experience though:))

Anyone got a 92F-style 9mm and want a deal on crimson trace grips? Email me offline (so as not to be ridiculed in public:))...Won't be needing these anymore!!! Okay, to be fair: It is a decent box-stock service-pistol target gun. It can really do a damn-damn on paper...heheh.

Someone should compile a list of relaoding equipment and testing equipment to stay away from.

Joe M
Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 16:50:00 (ZULU)

re: Steyr SSG P-II:

As I understand, the SSG at one time was one of the outstanding "as produced by the factory" rifles. Today we have better options from several custom riflesmiths with their package offerings.

Unless the price of an SSG has come down a lot, you would probably be better-served paying a similar price to one of the good US-based riflesmiths for one of their packages.

(Asuming you haven;t made a purchase or have alrady been issued with the Steyr).

A friend who had one had issues with the polymer removable box magazines self-destructing w/usage.

I would speculate there were either polymer design selection issues (too brittle), or issues with recoil forces coupling to the magazines enough that they were being munched.

I also understand there were issues with the original synthetic stock sagging when subjected to extended exposure heat and sun.

Concur with Joe, I can't get really excited about a rifle that I would be shooting a lot that requires a trip back to the factory for re-barrelling (if that is still the current design).

One 06-Jun-2000 opinion is available from:

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/SteyrMannlicherSSG_PII_Opposing.asp

06-May-2000:

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/SteyrMannlicherSSG_PII.asp

http://www.snipercentral.com/ssgp1.htm

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/sniper/ssg.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 21:50:49 (ZULU)

Gents,

CDC, took some time to look up pricing on the CZ-452’s. All three models are blue steel and walnut. The full stock carbine sure is a cutie, but the heavy barrel model got my attention. Pricing is not in the “plinker” category, for sure. Would like to know what kind of accuracy you’re getting out of your Geoff Corn ‘smithed rifle?

‘Lito, looked at the rifle scopes you recommended. Nice looking. How are they for repeatable zero?

Actually, I’d love to get one of the little rascals and play with it. Perhaps in the future. Right now I’m saving my pennies for a new Redfield to mount on my .223 Stealth. Pulled the Loopie off of it to put on my AR-10.

After the scope, my next purchase will be a Ruger #1B in .308 Winchester. Always thought the #1 was a class act. Still, it can be improved. Which is what I plan to do with it. Reshape the front of the action to make it a bit more svelte. Will probably add/modify the forearm attachment system and put a full stock forearm on it a la the Ruger #1 RSI. Wish you could see pictures of the custom #1 that Steve Nelson did. All I can say is, WOW! A great rifle in the classic .338/06 caliber. His customer ordered three more in various calibers. Any wonder he's backlogged three years?

Always wondered why Bill Ruger didn’t countersink the tang safety into the rear tang. Instead of just letting it set on top of the tang. I’m sure cost entered into the equation, but it could have been done in the molding process or machined later at little additional cost.

Add a Kepplinger single set trigger to the set up.

My Ruger #1V, in .25/06, is a shooter. Number One’s are not supposed to darn near stack bullets, but this one does. It’s a keeper. May have something to do with it being an older (200th Anniversary) model. Pushing 85 Gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, at 3,400 FPS, with ease. Had never shot a .25/06 until I got this one. It’s a winner. Recoil seems to be non-existent with the heavier rifle. Have an old Bushie 6 x 18 on it. Nice scope for this rig.

M-16 or Whatever Country: My introduction to the M16/AR-15 family of weapons was via the military. Have seen that rifle used all over the world and consider it, arguably, one of the best. The ’16 is a bit sensitive to sandy conditions. With proper maintenance and care it will work. There seems to be a big push to weapons with an op rod. After all, the AK has one and it works! I can’t jump on that bandwagon. Simply because I don’t think the op rod system is any better than the gas impingement system used in the M-16. Both work. They are design features, nothing more.

I do think that the M-16 and its variants will “soldier on” for a long while. Cost is one factor, but there probably won’t be anything much better until we start using laser beams and plasma rifles. That said, I have trigger time on some neat weapons, but apart from their newness and kewl looks they offer very little the M-16 family doesn’t.

M-14 Country: I love the M-14/M1A family of weapons. Our last blue steel and wood stocked rifle. That said I don’t think is is superior to the FN/FAL. BOTH are superb. The fact that we are re-issuing the M-14 doesn’t make it superior to other platforms. If we would have had warehouses full of FAL’s we’d have been issuing those instead.

Mind you I’m not disrespecting other’s choices. Just saying that there are a lot of weapons out there that can get the job done. Given the choice of one rifle I’d probably take a .223 on the AR platform.

Seems we all have likes and dislikes based on our own experiences. That’s what I like about this group. This group has a huge spectrum of experience and a willingness to share.

Managed to get the gutters and roof cleaned yesterday. A few more projects to complete and I’ll have the house winterized before the beginning of hunting season. Blacktail Deer season starts the first week in October and runs through the first week in November. Rooseveldt Elk starts mid-November.

Question: Does Winchester coming back mean we are going to see more Stealth Rifles produced? Hope so, maybe they will chamber one in .260 Remington. Any of you folks with insider information?

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 23:19:37 (ZULU)

M14 versus M16? Bravo you can debate this every few months and the answer is still M16 system wins every time. Cheaper and shoots farther better. Its all been covered before.

I love the M14 but its not the great all around system the M16 platform is.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 23:47:53 (ZULU)

Oprods add weight.

Battle rifles and sniper rifles do share that trade-off thingy...

The flatter a trajectory, the faster the bore goes south. The more reliable the action, the more mass it will have (usually). The stiffer the barrel, the less room it has to take advantage of case capacity or the heavier it gets, etc-etc-etc...somewhere in the middle of all that---

We sure found room for a wide variety of opinions!!!!

I'm planning a 50 BMG by spring. I sure hope I don't end up in my car...

Joe M
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 01:59:24 (ZULU)

Patron Kittywhacker, that's one of the good aspects to being a redneck: pickups have beds. 4X4 allows you to put that bed about anywhere you (well, at least I) would want ;-)

Patron Joe, thanks for the kind words. They won't go unpunished LOL! I say don't bother with that peashooter 50 cal, I wanna be able to say I've got a friend that owns his own Solothurn.

Sir Wes, I agree! Just because something isn't "optimal" doesn't mean that its not perfectly capable and sufficient.

The FAL is a fine stick, I like 'em. There are some "not as positive" aspects of a bolt that tilts to lock, but they don't appear until incredibly dirty. My experience with the FAL is: if it's lubed (not necessarily cleaned, but the gunk is slushy), it's going to work. Interestingly enough, one of my major gripes with the FAL has been the rear sight. DSA just took care of that last month: you can now get your lower with M16A2 sights included. That's both elevation and windage. I don't have one yet, the operative word being "yet". Cost for the stripped lower with all sight parts is $200.

On the 452 Geoff Corn Specials, I know the one he built for Bub is a SLICK little sucker. Being that it was built with him (and not me) in mind, it's got a thin-thin little barrel at minimum length, and not that much accurizing besides bedding and clearing the barrel channel. I'm not sure exactly what the true accuracy potential of this stick is, but with CCI blue-label (standard velocity LR) or the CCI CB Longs, you can't miss a veggie can at 100. I'm sure the Williams sight on the rear and Remington 700 blade on the front help significantly.

Patron Mike, I think you might have misread me too. If you go back and read carefully, I actually came closer to debating Superman versus Batman than making any debate comment on M16 versus M14.

That having been said, what was James' stick he said he'd never sell or trade off?

Bravo
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 02:31:49 (ZULU)

Gonna be a grandpappy.........again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doughlady's oldest daughter called and advised she is all pregnated up. Maybe can keep the string of male type baby's going. Don't have any pink riffles to hand down. Of course if it was a little blond haired blue eyed credit card cute little girl.......I'd have a pink riffle built for her.

My daughter is next in line I reckon. Hmmmmmmmm, a grandbaby Boltster??????? The possibilities are mind boggling.

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 02:40:37 (ZULU)

Congrats, Bolt!

Joe M
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 02:53:45 (ZULU)

Wes: I looked through some targets and can't find the 452's. I rember thinking that, at 100 yards, any improvement in accuracy would be meaningless in the field. The thing is spectacular. I'm booked up this week, but will try to make time to take it to the range next weekend.

This 7mm wsm is a twitchy sucker. I'm not used to shooting rifles this powerful and this light from a bipod. The lack of barrel weight forgives nothing. After fiddling with it a bit, we started to get along. A consistent hold with consistent pressure and a perfect NPA and follow-through were the key. They always are.

64 gr H4831SC/160 gr Nosler Accubond seated to the lands gives almost exactly 3,000 fps. 5 of 6 shots went into something like 2" at 400 yards. The 6th wasn't too far out. Bad NPA. My kids were impressed. They're easy.

CDC'
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 03:11:41 (ZULU)

Bravo...

>"I say don't bother with that peashooter 50 cal, I wanna be able to say I've got a friend that owns his own Solothurn."<

Lahti is a start - I remember when I was a "bit younger", you could get a 20mm Lahti, BRAND NEW, UNFIRED in cosmoline, in the wooden coffin, with winter skids, extra parts kit, and 100 rounds of ammo for $99.99 plus shipping, and no paper work.

But the best was when I went to the Ft. Knox machine gun shoot, there was a guy there with a WW-II Military truck mounted 40mm Bofors AA gun, and he let loose about 3 clips (yes "clips", not magazines) of four rounds each... 12 rounds in very rapid succession. His wife was the stacker/loader (and a hottie too ;) - left an impression, for sure. I asked Santa for one for Christmas, but so far...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 10:49:47 (ZULU)

Say lito' lets not forget about the .55 cal Boys Antitank Rifle.

What a beast.AP ammo, $1 a shot say 50 or so years ago!

The good old days ??

Those 20mm's came packed in a Wooden Strong box called a Coffin.

Wonder why ??? LOL

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US of A - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 11:04:12 (ZULU)

BAD News :(((((

Winchester Rescue Efforts Abandoned

Friday evening, word that the last-ditch attempts by Save Winchester.com and American Firearms Company to save the former US Repeating Arms Company (USRAC) facility in New Haven, Connecticut, had been abandoned.

On Tuesday of last week, Olin Corporation, owner of the Winchester trademarks, granted the license to produce Winchester firearms to Browning. That announcement, apparently, was the last shot for organizers hoping to resume the 140 year history of Winchester firearms in Connecticut. Principals in the newly-formed American Firearms Company announced their decision to abandon their attempts to purchase the license and further efforts to purchase the USRAC facility from owner FN Herstal of Belgium.

A lengthy letter from Michael H. Blank, a key organizer in the efforts to keep the manufacturing facility that had formerly built Winchester's historic models 70 and 94 rifles before being shuttered last March, made no attempt to hide the bitterness toward Herstal.

"The Belgian management teams at Browning & Herstal have been unresponsive to our last attempts to keep Winchester in American and return it to American ownership," Blank wrote, "We asked them to name a price, any price and the response was that they want us to tell them how much in continuance of the back and forth delaying game we've seen since January. So it looks like it's over for the dream of a completely American Winchester Firearm, at least for now."

Stephen Oster, the man behind American Firearms Company told the New Haven Register : "We wanted to keep Winchester in America, made by an American company. We were quite surprised and ... disappointed that Olin chose this route. We did our best."

Oster, who was backed by several Wall Street private equity firms, said he planned to build a state-of-the-art manufacturing facility within the United States, and to keep at least some parts of the Winchester operation in New Haven.

A spokeswoman for the city said New Haven officials will continue trying to find a buyer for the facility.

Attempts by The Shooting Wire to reach Browning spokespersons since the American Firearms Company announcement on Friday have been unsuccessful.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 13:34:45 (ZULU)

Bravo, sorry if I misunederstood you. Now its you and women I dont understand. LOL

James loves his FAL and as you know we could hit at 700 plus yards with it and iron sites, but that was around 2000 and since then the M4 platforms have taken off, The FAL is in my opion the finest looking and feeling battle rifle ever. Its a work of art that has not been duplicated, same with a M14 I love them, but fighting is not about art. Its about getting the job done. For that James and I agree on the M4/M16 series. If you saw what he kept ready you would have seen about the same as you saw me carry.

Now since then I have changed to a free float fore end (LaRue) flip up sites front and rear, with LaRue mount for a 2.5-10 NXS, Leupold MK4 1.5-5 and Aim Point. I zero them and keep them ready for what ever I want to run with. The NXS is for the 18: version and the 1.5-5 Leupold is for the 16" version. Could not be happier.

Now the part that bugs every smith that sees these rifles. I use stock military triggers. I just smooth the rough off.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 14:54:34 (ZULU)

Mike: As long as I can get JP triggers under a Benny, I'll use the adjustables. Me and stoning have had issues with Uncle Sugar providing second (and third) attempts to try again! Now that I am using MY guns and MY money--I prefer to be cautious.

Ya'll hear that Father who alleged that his son's training was substandard and 'could have" contributed to his death??? Well, that is a bit of a stretch--though he could be on to sumptin on the training itself (ya can't learn to avoid every explosion nor to survive in one either)...but we could be better at what we do teach. Tons better. Major part of what I did overseas was to look into "how" (specifically) we could do better and unfortunately, the specifically part was specifically targeted to those specific types of units, while much of the criticism and fixes could be applied broadly (and we went to great lengths to make that point). I was not alone, I had CALL and Divisional assets working alongside with the same mission--so "my" observations are not exactly "my" world view of what was wrong. There was a broad consensus on needed changes. Like I said, change did occur in a narrow area (SOCOM alone took it to heart at Bragg--go figure). Problem is, little else changed from before I left. In short, prep training is stuck in the wrong mind-set, and misses the mark. I won't provide examples for obvious reasons. It does piss me off though. And part of me wants to kick the hornets' nest to affect change.

Heheh. The only "combat veterans" are almost exclusively Captain and below right now; there is a significant difference between one firefight in Panama (if that) or 100 hours in desert storm compared to 365 days of patrolling and ambush. Or two or three such 365-day periods! Now, we have a mindset blended with soviet-style linear warfare combined with technological tempo-driven operations, again, linear applications, with a smidge of lip service to LIC operations. Ops in theater do not resemble this thought process. Things we assumed to be 'special" are ordinary on the battle field. In short, what the soldier does is not what we envisioned that soldier doing. We're off the mark by two echelons.

I've said enough openly. Compared to other issues, this one is not a huge priority on the grand scale. But it is the one I have eyes on, and the temptation to stir up a shitstorm is high...

Joe M
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 16:33:15 (ZULU)

Mike, congrats on the bundle of joy! Hope you don't get stuck with "diaper dooty" ;-)

Patron Kittywhacker, I'm sending another Patron off a box today. Inside is some subversive, treasonous propaganda hate speech materials - from Sir Wes' friend! Included was a copy of an ad from '67 peddling a Solothurn in very good condition, with every accessory ever produced for it, in the crate. Sale priced "to your door" of just under $200. Ammo was available with the purchase of the stick for a whopping $1 per round.

Patron Mike, no question, the M4 platform is by far more adaptable than anything before it. As one fellow here (same state anyway) says, the AR is a black plastic Barbie doll for boys. Dress it up for a night of CQB out on the town, dress it down for a casual day of "service rifle" competition. There are lots of things for me to gripe about, 'cause I've not found the perfect stick yet. No perfect design, perfect execution, perfect ergonomics, or even just 'perfect for me'. I'm not sure that they were ever produced. Likewise, there are lots of design features I look at and say "now THAT is a GREAT idea!". Even if it takes me several years (and significant trial and error) to come to that conclusion. The M4 platform has lots of those great ideas, I never said it didn't, especially the weight. But it can't be "all that and a bag of chips", 'cause if it were, Duman and 'Lito would be fighting over the chips LOL!

That having been said, I've decided I don't much care for the free-floating fore-end tubes. The railed handguards, yes, but the free-floating handguard tubes like I've got on mine, no. For casual shooting / 3-gun, they're fine. Putting 400 rounds through a stick in less than an hour becomes uncomfortable without gloves. The railed handguard tube things (a-la RAS) though are a different story. With the rail covers from MagPul / Falcon, I didn't have a problem with the heat at an equivalent round count / time.

One of the finest things I've found for the AR was something I didn't actually find myself. Geoff M turned me on to Sully's stock, and I love it.

The trigger Geoff Corn put in mine this last time is a drop-in deal. When my trigger & hammer pin holes had opened to the point I was getting doubles / bursts, this is what he used to make it right. Easy to clean from the top just like a GI unit, but much improved in trigger pull. On a new receiver, I would HIGHLY recommend one of Geoff's modified GI triggers. As he explained to me, the AR does NOT have a two-stage trigger. It's got a single stage trigger with MILES of take-up. He just takes up the take-up before you get it, resulting in a trigger that feels as good as it gets with US GI parts. Of course, that's my opinion.

Bravo
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 19:45:37 (ZULU)

I'm gettin hitched soon!

Blond hair, blue eyed 35 y/o sister in Christ.... Known her and her family for 2 years. Never thought much about her till one day He put her next to me in a pew. WOOO HOOOO!!! God is awesome....

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=110334

Israeli soldiers views on the war in Israel..Pretty awesome.

Any info on Space Available flights to Israel???

Pooof!

Gooch out

Gooch
Mt Ida, AR, - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 19:50:45 (ZULU)

Mistah Gooch,

Congratulations Sir! I wish you the very best.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 20:06:55 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Congrats, didn't know you had it in ya...

"Any info on Space Available flights to Israel??? "

contact Hezbollah

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 20:44:04 (ZULU)

Geoff M. - "Have you tried the HK gas piston upper on an AR platform with a match grade 1/7 twist tube and firing out of the box BH 90 grainers....." Where does one acquire (legally) an HK-416 upper?

Bravo: "Duman and 'Lito would be fighting over the chips LOL!" after hiking a 14er yesterday, I could certainly use the sodium.

Mike Miller: "James loves his FAL and as you know we could hit at 700 plus yards with it and iron sites..." do you recall which model he is shooting?

Lito: So the earlier news re:W was premature ... ? There's no shortage of American $$ to buy Winchester. Certainly an interesting situation. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Joe M: Would you be kind enough to post the link to your blog?

medicjim: I've had several Sakos, and thoroughly enjoyed them. I'm not sure of Tikka's, but I thought they were under the same manufacturing umbrella.

Where's Pete Lincoln?

Duman
Monday, August 21, 2006, at 22:58:26 (ZULU)

Interesting places for sure.

http://www.sprucemtsurplus.com/Misc2.html

www.gijungle.com

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 23:44:53 (ZULU)

Congratulations Gooch.

I too met a sister Christian, and hope to follow in your footsteps one day. We have known each other since last September, but only started our "relationship" at the end of May. Considering my past, I am taking things real slow, but the urge to go "fast forward", and tie the knot, is incredible in me. Serena loves, and wants, to do all that I do too. I still have a hard time believing that she is with me.

I do hope that everything you two do, is Blessed, and I will Pray that God has and will, smoothed out the creases in your lives. Now, and in the future.

God Bless,

Sean.

now, back to the regular scheduled programming,,,,

Sean Thomas
Winnipeg, the construction zone,, Manitoba, Canada - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 23:54:32 (ZULU)

Duman......I dunno. I have heard through the grapevine of a few examples escaping into civvy hands through "that other site". I figure if anyone could do it in their "relentless pursuit of perfection", it would be Bravo! :-)

Bravodude....there ya go. When you find the best rifle, name it "Lexus"!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, August 21, 2006, at 23:54:41 (ZULU)

Gooch:

Congrats dude and amen brother!

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 00:05:25 (ZULU)

Looking for a cheek pad that has a flap and clear pocket for your dope card.

Anybody else seen one?

Durand Wilson
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 00:33:06 (ZULU)

Is a gas piston upper conversion for the AR platform a solution for a non-existant problem?

_________________________________________________________________

Now that the Big Red W situation has unraveled was my initial suspicion that the Belgians plan to move the entire line overseas and manufacture it in Japan correct?

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 01:50:00 (ZULU)

Alan: A possible solution to a problem we are about to have more of: heat build-up in the receiver from suppressor use (Ken M gets the hat tip for pointing out the obvious right here months back)--the army is on short final on some contracts down that road. Bout time too, eh? whazzit you say? Eh? Speak up...anyway, that is about all you get. Accuracy is off comparing notes with others--weight is up when i toyed around with a 416 in the stan...Suppress a 18-20" upper heavy barrel with a short stroker and i may bite--otherwise, my M4A1 is the be-all.

Gooch: Cool. Congrats. Check into MFO (Sinai) mission support flights, then take a bus north. Not a blow-up bus, but the MWR (army) bus for our troops. 3d Army has the mission now, FWIW. Also, many flights into Cairo. Israel direct are mostly cargo--and unless you can pass for crew...fergit it.

22 AUG: The mahdi cometh? Much talk about Iarn's answer being a nuke test on a live target. Me? I cannot shake the thought of Iran liberating Iraq. Think about that. Bold ass move. For our part---we are set in a COIN role--shorthand for spread thin across hell's half acre. Our arty tube count is pretty low, and Illum rounds double HE in the ASP. Mortars are mostly in connexes, or worse--stateside. Armor is stripped out and units are motorized instead. We couldn't mass effectively or quickly enough to contain a armor thrust. Air power is "just enough" with most at home...what would happen? Well, we;d prevail eventually, I think. But how would it play when we re-take Baghdad the second time? It sounds crazy to me, and yet I can't let the thought go...

Heheh. If that ever came to pass--I'd strategically retreat into Syria, squash that rats nest, then regroup and roll thru to Afghanistan---armor divisions abreast. Oh, and there are two valleys into Tehran that are only slightly out of the way. My glass is always half full, eh?

Well, we shall see what the Mullahs have in mind soon.

Joe M
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 03:56:30 (ZULU)

First off, congrats to you Kent! Since 'Lito won't ask anymore, does she have a (unmarried) seeester? Seriously, I hope you're so happy you forget your own name. What's more, I hope you STAY that happy.

Duman, I was just poking at you and 'Lito. Really. I thought about poking at Moe, but he doesn't seem to come around anymore, so I figured it'd be a wasted poke unless.... You must be having a good life, you're getting more hiking in than I am!

If you've got the time, and have the inclination to swing out this way, there's a mildly technical one I'd appreciate having a partner for (seriously). We might have to do it on the sly though, as permits can be difficult to obtain LOL! Look up "zion subway" on yahoo, check out the pics, and then say no ;-) I can get us a ride way on out there, and a hot drop and hot lift, if you're up to dodging the uh-thori-tahs.

Patron Joe, you're slacking on your job! I noticed several folks asking for your blogsite. Heck, I'll join the fray, I must have missed it the first time. Box is on its way.

Geoff, I can't do that. If I found the BEST rifle, it'd be made in the USA (GRIN). Man, you sure are tempting on that 416! If I could find one, I'd have to buy it on the sly, and make sure nobody knew I had it. Duman knows where I live.

Alan, the instructors at the ranch seemed to believe in the gas piston solution, and specifically the 416. Besides fixing the annoyance of carboning up the bolt / carrier, it prevents the heat from coming back into the bolt, which is notorious for killing extractor springs among other things. At least that was part of what I heard / remembered. Truth to tell, when he started going off on the piston driven uppers, I thought "yeah, I know", and turned long term aquisition off.

I tapped out my thoughts on the matter, but then decided to delete.

Bravo
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 04:11:01 (ZULU)

Bravo- I seem to note a whine about gloves. If you're gonna do up close & personal you'd best get used to them. Whole bunch of ways to ding up the digits that can be prevented with gloves. Problem is finding the right ones:((((

WR Moore
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 04:36:27 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Congrats on the pending nuptials. Married a preacher's daughter some 20 odd years ago and it was the best thing I've ever done in my life, hands down.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 05:23:30 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Joe M. put me on to these gloves and I really like them. Great for barricade supported shooting. I personally prefer the "shorty" ones; but I'm just about ready to remove the elastic from the wrists.

http://www.hatch-corp.com/Tac%20HTML/heat.htm

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 05:32:27 (ZULU)

I see the reasoning for a gas piston upper on a supressed AR as being legitimate. Otherwise I can't see much justification for one unless a potential owner can just own up to the fact that he thinks he needs one, has drank the Kool Aid, and is willing to spend the bucks just to have something different. And if that's what he wants, more power to him. But don't attempt to justify it by creating problems and defects where none really exist. Don't forget that's just my opinion, and nothing more!

Oh, and did I mention the fact that I hate H&K? I won't pull any punches and sully their name with backhanded comments or refer to them using sly innuendo, I just think that they suck. From their notoriously poor record in serving civilian customers to their failed attempt to secure a US military contract for their gas piston M16 replacement by buying Army brass (many of you have seen that suck-up Colonel on Ermey's show), to bullying State legislatures, their conduct on this side of the Atlantic has been reprehensible.

Gee, I intended this to be a comment on what I think about the gas-piston upper and it turned into a full fledged rant about H&K! HA! At least nobody can say that I'm neutral on the subject ;)

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 06:14:10 (ZULU)

The gas piston guns are mainly useful for suppressed work and also short barrels(10-12"); in a traditional length gun, I don't see a huge need. But given the trend for shorter, it makes sense. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. HK sucks, and their 416 isn't backwards compatible with much off the M16 series. Leitner-Wise makes a better one IMO, and I don't have any experience with the POF. L-W just shitcanned a FUBAR poser shareholder and I think they're on the way to success. Anyhow enough of that.

Gooch, congrats. The IDF has a program called Mahal, which is mainly intended for Jews living away from Israel but is open to goyim if they want to partake. Basically, it's sorta like a IDF version of the FFL, except much more nicer. I was looking into that before Sep 11 provided the opportunity to kill savages for America.

Joe M and others, I linked to the USMC lessons learned site. It's open to all with .mil/.gov addresses. They have some good reports there, lots of decent AAR's. Also a lot of stuff open for comment in a bulletin board format. You do get responses rather quickly if you post something that makes sense. I pointed out some problems with one of their white papers and had emails from two light cols and a maj the following day. Just another way to network.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing lots and lots of the same shit. Stuff I bitched about in OIF 2 is the same stuff guys are bitching about in OIF 4-6. We're not acting on the reported problems. Knowing about the issues is one thing, doing something about it is another entirely.

I just don't see a future for Winchester in New England, that place is just FUBAR from everything I see/hear/read. I'll buy Cooper/Kimber/GAP/pre-64's and be happy. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 09:00:46 (ZULU)

Looks like the Mahdi had to send his regrets. Pity.

Some thoughts on the Hezbo/IDF spat from a Senior Fellow at Georgetown's Center for Strategic and International Studies. Click my name.

CDC'
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 13:15:42 (ZULU)

POF? They couldn't make much headway here when they used their REAL name - Pakistan Ordnance Factory - so they set up a US corporation and named it Patriot Ordnance Factory! Do they think that no one will notice or that nobody will remember?

Can't see myself spending my hard earned $ to benefit a company whose products appear with startling regularity in the hands of our enemies.

ALAN

Alan
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 15:11:18 (ZULU)

Gents:

http://my-two-sense.blogspot.com/

There's my blog--or click my name. I'd like some feedback, if anyone finds a minute...

I'll post at least weekly, or as time and events permit.

I had to come to work to get the URL; turns out that my title is widely used across the 'net! That's why I ignored the request--I didn't know the link myself! Duh!

Alan: The Pakistan thing is a huge danger. They have nukes! And a restive radical islamist population to go with it. What we should be doing is engaging in serious expenditure there in Pak. Put up a couple of world-class Mayo-style clinics for health, deliver some centers for higher learning (secular universities)--and generally embracing that nation with any number of good works. If we sit pat, the radicals will inherit the earth. Or, scorch the earth, as the case will be. We, as a nation, ought to see that prospect clearly. How can we rely on Musharif's good health and standing alone? yet we are...now, that is a total aside from whether or not to buy a Pak rifle. Heheh...I'm gonna look into that ownership thing myself, and if it is a Pak business, they not get my bidness either! That's a different matter entirely than nation building and moderation of the masses...I know of a plant that makes 90% of the caps used in 'stan IEDs...yep, in Pak! Unmolested and unrestrained! No doubt, the dollars must be used for said works---cash will only flow to the badguys! As will profits to many corps over there...

Joe M
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 20:33:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Just read your latest blog. Good read; but sure showed me how ignorant I am. I am very aware that we are at war; but didn't have a clue about their religion/mindset. Thanks for the short course. Now it's up to me to do some serious research if I can find the volumes that you listed.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 21:10:19 (ZULU)

Doc: Just use google and browse the basics; save that heavy stuff for finer points of their apocolypse if you still can stomach it!

Joe M
Tuesday, August 22, 2006, at 22:01:45 (ZULU)

Work sucks. Now that that's out of the way...........

Joe M.........

Check your Roster email. The blog thingy is very cool. You hath a way with woids.

Gooch........

Good on ya bud. I like to see folks happy.

Bravo......

Need an update on our friend out west at your earliest convenience.

Time to get maters out of the canner, Boltster out!

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 01:47:01 (ZULU)

Bolt,

You've got roster mail inbound. The old address I had for you doesn't work.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 02:30:14 (ZULU)

Joe M

Good read. I've just ordered a book titled BACKFIRED by William Federer. Mr. Federer was interviewed on a local radio station. During his interview he talked of the same things you did. I to am ignorant of the Islam/ Muslum/ Religious thing. I hope his book is as a good read as his interview was, It can be found on americanminute.com

On another note. Check out montanabulletworks.com The guy has some good prices on cast bullets, I've got a friend going that way in november, and he'll swing by and make a pick up , if your interested. Didn't know if your Cowboy Action Shooting required a good supply of cast bullets or not. Just thought i would throw it out to you.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 11:39:35 (ZULU)

"...you don't have to have Churchillian prescience to see that what happened once in Lebanon can happen again. Hezbollah's avowed aim is to eradicate Israel. Listen to what it says. Pay attention. It will renew its attacks the first chance it gets. This is why it exists.

"...U.S. is not only preoccupied, it is loathed. The leadership it once was able to exert -- especially in the Middle East -- is a thing of the past. If it is going to have its credibility restored, another president will have to do so. In the meantime, as we always learn, Europe without American leadership is a mere tourist destination.

"...Now, by default, the leadership of Europe has slipped to France. We can all sense war coming and a kind of crazy chronology forming like storm clouds for all to see -- 1938 becoming 1914."

Click my name.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 14:32:31 (ZULU)

You guys that used to flip rubber bands in class need to see this. Select fire, full-auto rubber band gun. If anyone can translate the order form on their site, help me out. I NEED one! Click my name to see the video.

See also- Japanese ball massage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lusYD-I2r4U

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., - Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 15:16:00 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Just read your blog. Good stuff. I spent several years traveling to the middle east, and had some understanding of Islam, but now I realize I need to finish my education on the subject. Thanks for the blog, and references.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 19:33:46 (ZULU)

Gents,

Have been off line for about three days. Seems my computer was hacked into and the only way we discovered it was my internet service was interupted. In the course of restoring that we noted what had happened. System is restored. One of the programs caught when we ran a spyware program was designed for phishing...scarry stuff. Especially, when I'm not the most computer cognizant person in the world.

August 22nd came and went. No majory incidents. The Maahdi's horse must have thrown a shoe, had the colic, or died. Fine with me. Last place he needed to ride was Jeruselum.

Gooch-san! Congratulations! Always nice when you find the "right one". Ask me! It took three tries...;-(

Gloves: I've been using the Hatch nomex/kidskin gloves for some time. They do a nice job of proecting your hands when you're crawling about. Have the high cuffs on mine. Might go wrist length only in the future.

We have a leather supply in Salem that makes dandy leather gloves. A lot of officers wear them. Compadre said they were about $13 a pair. Will try to check it out and report back...

Gas piston AR's. Why bother. Alan said it best. Non problem looking for a solution...

Durand, I use clear 3M packing tape to laminate my come ups and put them in my cheek piece. They last a long time. A better way is to tape them to your fiberglass or wook stocks ensuring that there are no air bubbles in the tape. Have several rifles done this way. A quick reference when needed without digging about in your gear.

Bravo, what "subversive, treasonous, propaganda hate speech materials?"...;-) Can't seem to remember any such material!

Stephen, the set up you refered to sounds like a Lahti 20MM. They came in a wooden "coffin" that mounted on ski's. The coffin contained six spare magazines, spare parts, ammo storage, and such. After the big fuss you could get them complete for about 100 bucks each. Found one about 5-6 years ago complete for about 6 grand. Shoulda snagged it. Then I wouln't have to listen to the .50 cal crowd crow.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 22:12:40 (ZULU)

Re: Steyr SSG

To Joe M:

If I'm not shooting competition or firing hot hand-loads, I

think I can expect about 5,000 rounds before considering a new

barrel. There are two methods: let Steyr USA ship it back to Austria

where the price will be high and the turnaround time long. The other

choice is to have a gunsmith cut off the barrel, ream out the stump,

re-thread the receiver, and install a new barrel of my choosing. This will also be expensive and the wait may be long, but from then

on, a new barrel and even a new caliber will be fairly straight-

forward.

Scope mounting: If you want to use the dovetails in the receiver, your choices are the claw-type rings from Steyr at about

$225 retail or similar rings from Talley at about $175 retail. My

choice is the Picatinny rail from U. S. Optics at $135 and Badger

Ordnance rings. Much more flexibility.

To Rod Regier:

I've yet to see the five-round cylindrical magazine mal-

function, on any Steyr. The original ten-round box magazine was so

unreliable they stopped making it. As for the standard stock being

inadequate, possibly so. Mine has a custom McMillan with adjustable

cheekpiece and a buttstock spacer system for length-of-pull. It also lets me use a Turner 1 1/4" all-weather sling, instead of the 3/4"

swivels on the standard stock.

Yours,

Mark

Mark Taylor
West Virginia, USA - Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 03:55:00 (ZULU)

SSG rings-B Square makes rings to fit this action at about $45 retail. No personal experience with them, but the stuff I've used from B Square worked. Might have looked wierd, but worked.

JoeM-intersting read. Gotta admit I'm groping a bit about the 5 pillars. Might have to dig the Koran back out. I've got an annotated translation and kept getting sidetracked by the similarities between Torah, Bible & Koran. An exposition on Islam 101 might be of great value to many.

WR Moore
Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 05:02:44 (ZULU)

Thanks for the gloves recommendo guys, but I've already been there.

Patron Joe told me that I ought to get some of the Hatch Operators. I got the SOG-L 200s (desert tan with kangaroo leather palms), gauntlet sized. The reason for the guantlet is because they don't make the desert tan version in shorty.

10 minutes with some seam tape, hot knife, sewing machine (and operator), and of course some scissors, took care of that.

I used these at the ranch too, and appreciated the abrasion resistance particularly on my left hand while going prone over and over. I didn't need them for heat, as the XCR doesn't get the chamber area hot unless you pump out 400 rounds in a half hour or less. Ask me how I know that.

What I meant, and should probably have said better, was more of a commentary on the fore ends available today.

What I have on my AR now is a full-float aluminum handguard tube. It's just a piece of pipe, no rails, and textured over most of it (like a mild checkering). If I'd known then - when I was having it built - what I know now, I would have gone with a railed fore end.

Not only for the flexibility, but due to heat as well. With the Falcon / MagPul full-sized rail covers, this type fore end is actually much cooler in rapidfire than what I currently have on there. I'm guessing it's 'cause the holes in the railed fore ends act as cooling vents.

In other words, I'm a convert to railed fore ends. As long as they have full sized rail covers where my hands go.

Oh, and Alan, full agreement about how utterly lousy HK is on customer service / relations. They almost act as if they're doing ME a favor by "allowing" me to purchase one of their items. Screw that. I put them firmly in the same camp as Glock (the Smyrna Schmucks) - good products, but you better not EVER want / need anything else from them, to include the time of day.

But the other POF equals this POF? I thought they were two different entities. I guess the rename did confuse some folks, like me. Does this mean the POF that has the piston driven upper also has a slew of Pakistani HK G3 parts? I thought Victor at JLD purchased the Paki HK machinery for his PTR sticks....

>>Update: You were right! I found the POF site, and gleaned this: "POF-USA IS THE U.S. DISTRIBUTOR FOR PAKISTAN ORDNANCE FACTORIES AND J.L.D. ENTERPRISES, INC."

Did I mention that I'm waiting for the Sig 556 to come out? HA! They MUST have lightened it up significantly from what I handled at the SHOT show. They're now claiming 6.7 pounds unloaded in carbine format. If so, they dropped about a pound and a half by my calibrated elbow.

Do I know what works and what doesn't? HA! But I do know that yesterday I firmed up plans to do some testing on the mountain this winter. We're going to do our best to get weather as close to -40 as possible. That's not THAT odd, -20 is cake. Just a couple guys, a bunch of sticks, a moderate amount of ammo, and all day to let things freeze, fire to get warm, ice up and refreeze in cycles until they quit working. If things get boring, there'll be a spray bottle of water in the (running, heated) truck, to add insult to injury. I'm not sure what it'll prove, but I'm sure it'll be an educational experience! Aint the high desert plateaus just grand?

Mike, update on that fellow: all is good. Better than good! He's coming along nicely, getting better all the time. Turns out that the need to be wired for 220 got circumvented, and for a good reason. See? The power of prayer!

Sir Wes, good to see you back on line! On that bit of material, the guy that had his life ruined for publishing something under his own name.....

Bravo
Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 05:08:10 (ZULU)

Gents: Thanks for the feedback; most of my rants will not be as heavy as that last one--just wanted to make some folks understand what they do not uderstand. As we all know from shooting--sometimes you need to know that you know nothing before you can learn anything!

OK--I am on pain killers...bear with whatever I try to say!

yesterday, coming out of the induced sleep: Went from nausea to lucid moments (so I thought, anyway), to loopy-sleepy--every 15 minutes or so.

Turns out, upon review with the wife---I may have been lucid at times, but whatever transpired never registered on the memory chips. Was like amnesia struck as soon as something happened. Parts of it now seem as if it was just fragments of a dream. And that was an all day event!

Knee is freakin' hurting. I'm trying to avoid the Vicodan for now.

Will check email later...

Joe M
Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 16:50:29 (ZULU)

Off Topic - Holster country:

Looking for a belt holster and seeking opinions, thoughts and experiences with them. Below is what I am looking at.

Handgun: Standard 1911 and Glock 36

1911 - Sidearmor or Bladetech verticale holster

Glock 36 - Sidearmor or Bladetech IWB

Need magazine holder for 1911 (2 magazines) - am looking at Sidearmor single magazine holder. Read that the Bladetech pouch is a joke. No need for magazine holder for the G36.

Darren...

Darren
Bay Area, CA, USA - Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 17:24:06 (ZULU)

Ol' D**n has really takin' a hate to Cheytac.

He's beatin' up on them more than I EVER DID...

... wonders of wonders, Ol' D**n and I are on the same page. Will miracles never cease??

http://www.snipingoperationsexecutive.org/V408page.html

D**n has finely got on the right train.

I actually like the guy in some ways (aside from the fact that he would take out a contract on my if he could).

I think his association with Cheytac put him in a position that had a lot of pressure to support his employer - I've been there in the past, and I understand it... it's why I work for myself now (I'm a tougher on myself than any boss than any I ever had).

http://www.cheytac.com/

Their webpage is childish, silly, and technically full of shit.

Ol' D**n is justified in his position...

"Go get them, D**n!!"

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 17:47:02 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I've really got to hand it to you! You're taking firearms testing to the limits that no one (other than maybe the military) ever does. Personally, I'm too damn lazy to go to those extremes but I appreciate your efforts. The only problem that I can see with your methods is due to the very limited amount of test subjects that you have to play with. Of course, that's not your fault but it does make your test results anecdotal rather than statistical. But that's certainly better than nothing, and I appreciate it. More power to ya!

Railed vs. tubular float tubes - Only two of my AR's have tube-style floaters. My AR10(T) and my Colt Accurized Elite both came from the factory with them. I'll probably change the 10 over to a Badger "Tactical Stabilizer Handguard" in the manner of the Canadian Forces sniper rifle, or put a KAC RAS on it like the Mk11 MOD 0 uses. I'll leave the Elite alone ,cause it's a med. heavy barreled varmint rifle and as such there's really no need for a railed handguad. I have KAC RAS and RIS railed handguards on a few of the other AR's in my safe. I'm also using KAC 300M and 600M BUIS's and flip up front sights. Not that I'm a big fan of (G)reed Knight but I got one hell of a deal on KAC stuff from a dealer who stopped handling his line a few years ago when KAC changed its dealer policies. Like him or not, his stuff has always worked without a hitch for me!

_________________________________________________________________

Joe M,

I enjoyed your blog, so much that I bookmarked it. I'll be looking forward to future installments.

It appears that Iran is the cause of the trouble that we're having in the Middle East recently. They are pouring arms and equipment into Iraq via Syria, shelling the Kurds in the north, arming and training Hezbollah and Hamas, and generally spreading their brand of Islamo-insanity through the entire region. Add to that their nuclear threat and I think that there is only one answer. A massive tactical nuclear strike on Irans' military, nuclear complexes, and oil industry along with a warning to all other would-be rogue states - "who wants to be next?" Arm the Israeli's and turn them loose on Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south. Show these maniacs that we mean business, and f**k what Europe thinks.

Either that or shut up and go home and never expect to have one ounce of respect from the rest of the world again!

___

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 17:49:20 (ZULU)

'lito,

"intentional overstatements ....................are over-stated"

WTF?????

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 18:01:53 (ZULU)

Darren, ANY of the holsters from Tucker Gun Leather are just plain OUTSTANDING! Try the Texas Heriatge for the IWB. Been wearing one for my G36 for well over a year and have another currently enroute for my XD45! Great quality and it kept me from trying this, trying that and eventually spending more than I would have for a Tucker to begin with!!

Have a look @ www.tuckergunleather.com

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 20:03:06 (ZULU)

The scientists have been telling us that Pluto is one of the planets in our solar system for longer than I can remember.

Now they're telling us that Pluto is no longer considered a planet!

What does that say about the other stuff they taught us in school?

The theory of evolution for example;)

ALAN

Alan
Thursday, August 24, 2006, at 22:32:07 (ZULU)

Darrin,

FWIW, I use a Fobus paddle holster and magazine holder for my 1911. I like it, but will wear the finish pretty quickly. The weapon comes out quickly for me, and one handed/no look reholstering is easy. The magazine holder carries two mags. I wear them at the 3 and 9.

My instructor recommended that I switch to an Uncle Mike's Kydex due to him having seen Fobus holsters pop all it's rivets, come apart, and dump the gun due to snagging. One story he related was snagging on a seatbelt on a vehicle bailout. I can see that wrecking a lot of paddle holsters, or belts, or other things! That said, the two piece design, riveted together, is a very valid concern. So I bought an Uncle Mike's. It's well made, and has adjustable cant, but I didn't like it. It holds the weapon out further away from the body than the Fobus and the draw is not as natural out of it to me. For open carry, I imagine the durability and adjustability gives the Uncle Mike's the edge. For me, I can conceal and use the Fobus a lot better. Not that I actually use it....it's illegal in WI......

YMMV, you can get used to different things with training time, etc...

Geoff M
WI, USA - Friday, August 25, 2006, at 01:38:25 (ZULU)

Holster country,

I have been using both Fobus and Uncle Mike holsters for quite some time. When I was at the Chapman Academy in May I asked John Leveron what brand of holster he was using to carry his weapon. Told me it was a Blade-Tech. I had never heard of the brand so John sang its praises for me. They will replace any of their products that go bad and are particularly good to the military guys. I had also heard of Fobus holsters coming apart so I bought a Blade-Tech and I'm quite happy with the quality. In fact I have one for a Kimber, a Glock 21, and a Glock 36. YMMV. None of these are concealment holsters so I may just take your advice Sarge and go with Texas Heritage for a Glock 36 IWB holster.

Joe M.,

Hope you're feeling better by now. Unless you have problems with them, "Take the damned pain pills!". Surgery may be required; but pain isn't! Rant mode off. Holler if you need anything.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 25, 2006, at 02:01:51 (ZULU)

Joe M -real common to find Versed in the chemical cocktail they give you before you go under the knife. One of the listed side effects is "retrograde amnesia"....as in...you lose a couple hours of what was your life.

medicjim
Friday, August 25, 2006, at 02:33:33 (ZULU)

Darren-if you're carry any gun, carry AT LEAST one reload. Without one, whatcha gonna do if your gun gags?????????????????? Don't use a pocket to carry mags, the magazines to an amazing job of removing all lint, dog hair, small rocks and some change to internal storage.

Fobus vs Uncle Mike- got both, use the UM for a paperweight. The @#$%^ cheap screws that hold it together kept coming loose. I've a couple associates on a professional forum that have reported those screws breaking under stress. The Fobus, on the other hand, kept the piece in place even after being rolled around on the ground while trying to break up a dog fight. This is hard to do when one ends up under the dog fight.

Paddle holsers-you're gonna lose that weapon to random chance or the first snatch attempt.

Check out Ken Null holsters. They aren't cheap, they are worth it.

WR Moore
Friday, August 25, 2006, at 03:12:52 (ZULU)

Click my name for a link to Milt Sparks holsters. Buy carefully because you won't live long enough to wear this stuff out.

CDC'
Friday, August 25, 2006, at 04:17:22 (ZULU)

Blade Tech=good. Milt Sparks=good. Kramer=good.

Uncle Mike's=not good. Fobus=not good.

Kydex either works for people or it doesn't. Some folks hate having hard plastic against them, but it's faster than just about anything else. I know folks who have torn apart fobus after fobus, to the point where they stopped replacing them under warranty because it wasn't worth the effort of shipping.

Joe M, interesting take on the Arab muslims. At this point, Allah wills it that I kill as many of them as I can. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, August 25, 2006, at 06:26:01 (ZULU)

Lito: My only problem with Dean was the posts he made here, specifically, "my sh!t does not stink--yours does, and I do not have to prove anything to anyone"--that came across as he bagged hard on you, Dan and others. That, and outrageous claims, kinda disrespected the talent youz guys brought on board here. Hell, he may be a good dude. Many folks I have high regard for have also defended him. But, he did a drive-by here, and never came back. Hard to form any other opinion from that, eh?

But he did challenge once again to a head to head match...wonder if he'll show up this time?

Geoff: seatbelts wrecked racks of ribbons rather regularly when recruiting:))

Ken M: In Sh'Allah and hey, have fun while doing it!

Agree: Fobus not good. I gave mine away. And no, I didn't have much regard for the victim I foisted it on:))

Jury is out on the Sherpa blackhawk--but data should pour in soon. It was a helluva popular holster as I was leaving theater. More than a few operators had them.

Doc: Time for a pair of pills! Pain is OK unless you have nothing better to do than to lay around and wallow in it---then it sucks! These happy pills pass hours and hours all by themselves. I figure I'll just run out one day and discover I am healed too.

Joe M
Friday, August 25, 2006, at 07:22:46 (ZULU)

Joe, sounds like knee surgery? If you have sweeling in kneee I have an ice machine that has really helped after my last two surgeries. It pumps ice cold water around knee. If you have use of this drop me an address and I will send it to you.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, August 25, 2006, at 08:18:18 (ZULU)

Ken M,

Good hunting!

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, August 25, 2006, at 13:54:24 (ZULU)

Joe M: Bad deal about the knee pain. Nobody bagged on me. D**n made some claims that I offered to verify then some joker named Jaeger came in and had much fun at D**n's expense. It was pretty comical. No grudges on this end. June 2002 in the archives.

CDC'
Friday, August 25, 2006, at 14:38:19 (ZULU)

Gents,

Still fighting the computer battle. After getting my system up and running it went hard down, for the same reasons. Have it unplugged, at pressent and am using "she who must be obeyed's" computer. I'm already getting the "you've been on my system to long" look.

Glock Lovers(and non-lovers): If you always wanted a aluminum, stainless, or exotic metal frame check out: www.ccfraceframes.com. Looks like a solution to a non-problem to me. Wasn't one of the benefits of the Glock series lightweight? Of course then there are those shooting them bastardized .45 GAP's that probably think this is a great idea!

Chey-Tac: Apparently still alive. Saw a advertisement for them in a current magazine (forgot which). Of course it trumpeted the merits of the .408...

Tubular handgards. Have had one on a AR-15 match rifle. Seemed to work OK. Have the KAC rail system on the AR-10. Seems to work well and it does have sky high "kewl-factor". I like the vents, as they allow excellent cooling for the barrel. On the other hand they let all kinds of shit in. Guess it's a trade off.

Holster Country: Blade-Tech-Have one for almost every pistol. G36, 1911's, CZ-75B, BHP, you name it. Top notch. My only complaint is the kydex is rough on the finish, but if you use the pistol that will haven anyway. My normal carry rig is a Instructor belt, single or double kydex mag pouch (depending on how paranoid I am, vertical straight drop holster, and a high grade sheath knife in a kydex scabbard. Have used it for years and it still looks new. Great for forays into the woods. Hides well under a light jacket or such.

Leather: Milt Sparks is excellent. Also, Horseshoe Leather Products(Andy Arratonian, England) is superb. Latest leather was from Eric Larsen at HBE. Excellent, as well. The lad does exemplary work...this finished in cordovan with black shark trim. Hey, it's my "Sunday, go to meetin' rig"!

Joe, take care of the knee and take the damn pain meds. You haven't figured out your not 10 feet high and bullet proof yet? I hate taking pain killers, too, but I the ankle ordeal would have been a lot worse without them.

Gloves: Hatch with kid skin palms. Am waiting for shark or alligator.

All for now. Wife WANTS her 'puter back. Mine gets wiped clean this evening and rebuilt from there.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Friday, August 25, 2006, at 17:08:00 (ZULU)

Holsters: I’ve found some that I like, and have a box full of ones that I thought I’d like. My daily rig (depending on what I’m wearing, and where I’m going) is either an Alessi OWB made under contract for Richard Heinie as the DOJ700, or an IWB from Milt Sparks, the Summer Special II.

CDC was right on trying to wear out a Milt Sparks. When I did, I contacted them to get a replacement Summer Special. Seems that business has been good to them, and there was quite a wait on backlogs. But they had a SSII there, and talked me into trying it. I like it better than the original, which says something. The first real run I got with the SSII was providing security detail for a Patron. It was a winner from day one.

Recently I made my first foray into kydex, with a Blade Tech Steel Challenge Special. This is mounted on my vest, it’s a bit beefy for a CCW rig. So far, I like it. I made the decision to try that one based on a few things, like folks saying that the paddle had snapped off of the Fobus with regularity. And then there was the word of my Nearly Famous Uncle Hans, he likes Blade Tech. IIRC, the Steel Challenge Special was what Dave Sevigny used to take the nationals this last year... my SCS is set up for the Surefire X200 on the pistol, it’s every bit as fast as my non-lighted leather, and maybe a bit faster.

Cheycrap and D**n: I don’t care, wouldn’t want one anyway. That applies to the Cheycrap and to D**n, don’t want either one. Thinking of such things though, I wasn’t nearly as impressed with the EDM as I thought I’d be. The bolt didn’t come back far enough to pick up the next round! HA! Hold on, let me wiggle the round in the magazine forward a bit, and try it again. Bleck!

Alan, yeah, I’ve been watching the Pluto debate for some years now. The Daily Show had a nifty way of keeping track of the planets, it was too funny. As far as evolution goes, I’ve got no problems with it, since it’s proven. What I have a problem with is folks taking what Darwin said, extrapolating it (without any shred of proof, unlike Darwin) to the Nth+5 degree, and using their “faith” in what they claim to make a new religion – the religion of “evolution”. That religion would make Darwin exclaim ‘what you talkin’ bout Willis?’

How does that relate to school? Heck, I was always told that the electron was the smallest subatomic particle. Until I got far enough along to take an advanced nuke course, where I got the full line as we knew it at the time. That doesn’t mean that I expect them to try and teach the flavors of quarks to kids up and through high school ;-)

About a statistical versus anecdotal result, you got it. What I say should always be taken with a grain of salt. Everyone knows that I’ve had bad luck with ARs, so statistically I should get lucky and get a Wednesday stick somewhere of some type. Anything I give a top rating to, should be understood that it might only be the one I got that is REALLY that good, and vice versa. Still makes for a good indicator though, if nothing else.

Revrund Jim, that must have been what they gave me then. And they either got the dosage way wrong, or my body is particularly susceptible to it. I lost days.

Ken, best of luck with the savages, I’ll be adding you to the prayer list.

Sir Wes, not sure if that was aimed at me or not, but either way, it hit. I got on the CCF Raceframes waiting list after handling one at SHOT. Here’s the straight-skinny: some folks (like me) appreciate a flat backstrap a-la 1911 with flat mainspring housing. The CCF solution incorporates your choice of backstraps, arched or flat, and easily allows changing them at whim. Add to that the fact that I have a grip reduction done to all my Glocks, and the CCF solution already encompasses most of these, and you’ve got a big draw. Lastly, the price of the CCF frame is about the same as the chop-jobs I have done. I’d have a 100% stock frame left alone.

Currently they’re behind schedule, due to some problems from the casting house. They were slated to come out the end of June, but still aren’t released. The first ones are G17/22/37 frames in aluminum. Other frames to begin later, as well as other materials of construction, to include titanium.

My thought on this was that I’d mate that frame to a Caspian G34 stainless steel slide (with no crap entry – er, compensator - porting) the latest run also due to be released not too long in the future. Also running late. Should be a nifty 9, I do believe.

Bravo
Friday, August 25, 2006, at 21:33:09 (ZULU)

Have had a Milt Sparks Summer Special for about 15 years. There was a wait back then to get one too. Worth the wait! Also have one of his "sixpack" mag carriers. (I was a Mel Tappan fan.)

Cut my .338/300 chamber last night. Really nice compared to the standard .338 Win. The model 700 ss magnum action allows pretty good oal bullet seating. `Bout all I've done is test fired a few rounds and tinkered with my reloading dies. Reamer is a Clymer. Chamber came out nicely. Fired cases have good bullet grip before resizing. 65 grains of AA4350 with a 250 grain gameking is a walk in the park. Hoping to pick up some 300 grain Matchkings next time in town. More for bear & moose than longrange shooting. Brush and woods are pretty dense where I live.

Summer Special and an Officers ACP were pretty nice under a lightweight suit, on business days back in Texas before CCW. Up here its a Ruger 454 SRH under the coat, or in the open if you want to draw looks in town. Few people still carry openly up here (AK), outside of the boonies, although it is legal.

What fun it is to ream your own chamber! Really stokes you up. Try it, you'll like it!

Edward Hogan
Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 06:33:13 (ZULU)

Wes: I agree with you twice: First, pills get me thru the hours between the pills. Man, the pain can best be described as first a migrane in the knee, soon followed by a pain that highlights the three holes power-drilled deep into my knee. yeah, sometimes I have to give in...this is one. The other is Glocksters: These seem to be out-of-the-box simplicity for those who will not or can not get good with anything else. That's how I look at them---useful, workable--and not worth a second glance for me. My wife loves them, and can shoot circles around some very surprised folks. As-is, why bother making it something it isn't???

Bravo: Since the army limits what you can feed a nine to FMJ I have not followed any better options. I just wrote off 9mm altogether. So, what is out there now that makes it a stopper, and won't get clogged up with cotton and become yet another expensive version of a FMJ round?

I am fondling a Badger rail-riser, a NF extreme, and some Badger lightweight rings (base showed up today:)). With 22 MOA built in, and a 3 inch shade, I am also hoping I clear the obstructions with the extended OBJ. I have some arms 22s to raise it up if needed (laplaplap), but if I have clearance (I should on paper), then this is gonna be a helluva set-up on my 260. I'll limp out and zero this tomorrow.

I've been buying 260 ammo everywhere I find it. Got some brass (no loadie gear yet)--so the factory stuff is a standby (and brass source). basically, I buy the last 2 or 3 boxes in the few places I find any at all. Cripes! This stuff is thinner than frog hair anymore!

I have the MLR reticle. The 1/4 MIL dots in the top and right quadrant, as well as the 1/2 MIL spacing (gen II style) should make for some better estimates. My old eyes don't split mils as accurately as I used to, that is for sure. 100 MOA of adjustment, and some damned fine glass. If anyone ever comes by and shoots my sticks---I "focus" my reticles now, and you'll need to adjust them! Read on:

I've tried shooting the Vaqueros with my reading glasses slung low on my nose. The front sight is in stark focus, and my groups tightened up by half again. The target is as blurry as it usually is, but the center is as easy to discern as it is without glasses. The only problem is that when I look around, and it spins my world a bit. I do have some bifocals somewhere...I should look for them, eh? I did not realize that my hand gunning had gotten as bad as it did due to my shorter arms...I thought I just sucked. Now I know that I can't see the front sight post worth a damn unaided!

Last note: If you have no experience with Badger bases, you are missing out. When I checked fit on a 20 MOA base to my SPR awhile back, it was like a magnet clamping itself on the receiver. It was as perfect a fit as can be made. Now, this rail riser is the ONLY mount I have placed on a PIC rail that does not move in any direction---just sitting there loose. Marty is an artist! His stuff is so perfect it is scary. I'm glad I did not discover the NF Unimount ahead of time (it was what i thought I needed).

Larue also makes some astounding stuff for other applications (tactical toys)...between the two, the rest no longer exists for me!

Joe M
Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 06:35:08 (ZULU)

Nope, not heading anywhere yet. I'm shopping around for a good deal, since just jumping onboard a unit is dumb and results in much needless suffering. The unit that I wanted to go with is one such example. I foresee problems for them in theater. Just for highlights, most of their staff is being or has been relieved and their Sgt Maj should probably be in prison. I love America as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to try and stop the meatgrinder by jamming my hand in there.

USM is calling up assloads of IRR Marines, so I might get the decision made for me. S/F.....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 06:45:59 (ZULU)

The "Blue-Star" web site has not renewed it's domain name.

Midway just received a shipment of .260 Rem Brass. I have 200 pieces enroute.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 13:44:30 (ZULU)

Correction!

I just looked again and "Blue-Star" has renewed. Their web-site is up...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 14:33:29 (ZULU)

Ken M: I see what you are talking about all too often. Being at a MOB-station has a darkside: Political appointee-style leadership (quite literally). Some, not all by any means--but some of these clowns SHOULD get jail sentences. One recent case was so egregious that they (my side of the house) decided that a relief was in order: So the deputy was relieved to send a message to the guy with connections (who really, really needed the axe himself). The odd thing is, I can't say the process is corrupt. I see it as cowardly and inept beyond belief though. The guys who could do something about the hacks don't have a pair of balls among the whole lot of them.

I need to crack a beer with ya and dump the "rest of the story" on ya.

I somehow knew you would be able to see and avoid that kind of mess.

On the other hand, I gotta friend named Jerry....and this guy has connections with a certain "Joint TF" augmentation program. Heheh, if you are looking for an "odd-job" let me know offline. I'll call this guy up and shake his connections. No way to know what's available--but you never know until you ask. My connections are at the next lower level---and thus aren't at the "joint" level. But this Jerry guy could help.

FWIW: I would ONLY consider a reactivation if it was with these folks...

Knee is much, much better today. I cannot believe the difference overnight!

Joe M
Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 15:04:55 (ZULU)

Robert Martin,

Drop me a line, if you would. I would appreciate it. I have a few questions for you.

Thank you, and Blessings,

Sean.

Sean Thomas
winnipeg, where the construction is,, Manitoba, Canada - Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 17:42:27 (ZULU)

JoeM- go talk to an optical group about mechanics glasses. These have a bifocal on top and bottom. The top is just about perfect for getting those sights back in shape. If iron sighted rifle is in your plans, make sure the top bifocal runs all the way into the inner corners. Makes for less time spent re-arranging your cheek weld. I had to go to this a couple of years ago for M4 iron sight requal. I guess there's worse aspects to getting.....very experienced.

9mm loads-I have personal experience with the Cor-Bon 115 gr +P JHP. Wonderous stuff. I am told by reliable people that their new DPX (the Barnes pistol bullets @ +P)drills auto bodies like nothing else and still expands. The local sources have dried up, I guess I'm gonna have to go factory direct. Federal 9BP 115gr is the best standard pressure round.

Can't disagree with what's been said about Kydex. I bought mine for inexpensive use around the farm and found one that works ok. Dunno about more strenuous use, but none of them fill me with enthusiasm. You can probably break all of them. Years back the instructor at a weapon retention instructor class turned me loose on the class a**hole. I destroyed both his Safrariland retention holsters:)))))

WR Moore
Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 17:50:17 (ZULU)

JR-Reply sent. I'm home now, but we are leaving out this coming Wed. to head to your neck of the woods.

Sean-Email sent. Eagerly awaiting your reply.

Marius, It was a pleasure seeing you and Marnus, as always, sir! Thanx for the video cut, I appreciate that. One of these days, we gotta drag Garry, Pete and Scott over for a nice little Safari. We should make a plan. I can do that place we were for a week with animals and airfare for about $5k per person. Something to think about. Hmmm...Snipercountry group hunt for '07? Think we could scare up 5 people for it?

Robert Martin
Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 22:19:17 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just a quick post. Getting spooled up for next weeks duty, so am getting into the mind set.

9mm Country: Rarely carry a 9 x 19 myself. I tend to be a "more is more,and bigger is better" kind of guy. That said there are 9mm platforms I WILL use. The Hi-Power and G19 being at the top of the list.

Most of the departments in Oregon have transitioned from the 9mm to the .40 S&W. As W.R. Moore mentioned the Cor-Bon 115 gr +P JHP seems to be a good round. It clocked a solid 1,392 FPS from my Browning Hi-Power. That's hauling ass. I know of only one shooting with it and the perpetrator was dead at the scene. Those testing the new 115 gr Cor-Bon DPX 115 grain load have nothing but good things to say about it. No known shootings, as of yet, that I am aware of.

The Winchester Ranger LE 127 gr. +P+ load (RA9TA) is getting rave reviews. Like the DPX load it will penetrate hard objects AND act like a JHP on the other side. It also passes the dreaded "four layer denim" test. This clocked a solid 1,265 FPS from my BHP, but being +P+ I'm not going to use it in my Hi-Power except on a very limited basis.

The Federal 9BP 115 grain load has been around a long time and has solid track record. Old technology, yes, but it's old technology that works. Clocked a solid 1,190 FPS out of the BHP and the G-19. The only shooting I know of personally was two hits to the thoracic cavity on a knife wielding felon. He dropped in his tracks.

Winchester Silvertip continues to be a solid performer, as well. The Miami FBI shooting not withstanding.

All this said placement is everything. Hit what you aim at AND hedge the bet by carrying the best round you can.

Joe, glad the knee is better.

Ken M. and activation of IRR Marines. I have VERY mixed emotions about this. The reserve component was never meant to be used and deployed like regulars. After DS/DS no one bothered to put the lid back on the bottle. They've been used and abused ever since. If we are drawn down that far, manpower wise, we need to re-instate the draft. That might just be the best thing that ever happened to this country. I know reserve members that have been deployed three and four times. Some are getting ready to go, again. How the hell are you supposed to be a "force in readiness" if you're always deployed? Sorry, getting in the rant mode...you hit a really sore spot with this former commander.

Bravo, so, got a bullseye on my Glock remarks. I know you're a fan, but didn't know you had felt the need to do product improvement. Think Gaston will listen to your recommendations for a metal frame and stainless slide? I do need to talk with you about your encounter with the .45 GAP.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, August 26, 2006, at 22:51:13 (ZULU)

re: 9mmx19 performance ammo

John Farnum also speaks highly of the DPX loadings in the various pistol loadings, FWIW.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 00:33:26 (ZULU)

Gents:

DPMS 260: It has a 1:7.5" twist. The barrel is also so marked. The factory says they have 1:8--well, not this one!

With scope, (less ammo and mag): 13.2 pounds.

Setting everything up was all the knee could take. Will shoot tomorrow---maybe 500 yds if the wife will go set up targets for me:))

Joe M
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 00:47:20 (ZULU)

Some departmental instructors are lamenting their switch from 9mm to .40 S&W. Glocks and wrist/hand injuries keep coming up. There's other issues, but that's one of the little interesting things.

I went 9mm in the 1980's for job related reasons. It's also a good choice given LLEA response where I live/travel. There's no re-supply available. With good ammo & good shot placement there's really nothing to complain about. I wouldn't be thrilled about being stuck with NATO ball. There are some European AP rounds that meet Geneva/Hague conventions and are much more effective than ball.

WR Moore
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 03:01:29 (ZULU)

Guys,

Any opinions(ha,ha) or recommendations on holsters/loads for a Sig P220R(railed) in .45 ACP? I prefer leather, but am open minded.

Also, I really don't wanna spend more than $50. I don't need any triple retention, button on the side holsters. If I were that worried about someone grabbing my gun, it'd be pointed at them.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., - Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 11:14:02 (ZULU)

Travis Morgan: Click my name if $67.50 is close enough.

CDC'
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 13:53:34 (ZULU)

Great news: Iran can launch a LR missile from a sub now.

People, voters in particular, and a bunch in congress need an "aw shit" moment; this may be the begining of that.

Joe M
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 18:25:25 (ZULU)

Joe M...

>" Great news: Iran can launch a LR missile from a sub now."<

And where, pray tell, did they get the friggin' submarine??? Why they built it in their very long established ship yards, of course - NOT.

They got it in exchanmge for oil, from one of their "friends" like the Frogs, the Rooskis, the Chinee', or some other sonovabitch that is our "friend".

Da' gubbament keeps telling us about all these friends we have out there, and I can count our friends on one hand and have a few fingers left over.

When are they gonna wake the fuck up???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 19:38:08 (ZULU)

Seems to me that Iranian subs within range (best estimate of their best tech) of any US border are now fair game for an accident.

medicjim
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 20:52:06 (ZULU)

re: Iranian sub

Bring SOSUS to full operational alert (if it isn't already) :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 22:32:49 (ZULU)

Wes Howe: "The reserve component was never meant to be used and deployed like regulars." I thought that's what 'reserves' meant. I probably don't have all the info you do, in terms of how they were used/abused. Are you thinking in terms of extended tours?

WR Moore: "Some departmental instructors are lamenting their switch from 9mm to .40 S&W. Glocks and wrist/hand injuries keep coming up." This must be a joke of some sort.

"Great news: Iran can launch a LR missile from a sub now." Back in the 80's, the Columbians got hold of a German WWII sub, and were going to use it to smuggle coke into the US. With good intelligence, we were able to stop it before it could be deployed. I would imagine the Iranian sub is less than state of the art, and makes a lot of noise. And is easily targeted.

Duman
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 23:09:20 (ZULU)

Duman,

IIRC, I heard a few years ago about the Feebs making exceptions for certain female agents and males that were small of stature that allow them to carry nines. The reason? Wrist and hand injuries! Wimps.

The Iranians probably have gotten ahold of one of those surplus Russian submarines that were rumored to be up for sale a couple of years ago. Even if it is in fact old and noisy I wouldn't be so confidant that we'll be able to detect and neutralize it before they can use it to do the dirty deed. After all, we cannot keep our borders secure from illegal immigrants, we're only able to intercept about 10% of the illegal drugs comming across our borders, and we have notoriously poor intel when it comes to the radical muslim states. There's an awful lot of ocean out there, and I wouldn't be surprised if a sub like that couldn't sneak into missle range by masking itself behind a supertanker. They've got the sub and the missles, now it's just a matter of time before they have a workable nuclear warhead. And we just sit there "negotiating". Do we wait until they decide to hold Isreal or perhaps New York or Los Angeles hostage? And who takes the blame when they do? When will we wake up? Our political parties will have lots of fun pointing fingers at each outer as usual, but who pays for the deaths of innocent people, maybe our own?

If we don't do something immediately we're screwed.

ALAN

Alan
Sunday, August 27, 2006, at 23:39:38 (ZULU)

Duman-in any organization of large size there are a given number of weenies. Also a given number of seekers-of-disability-pensions/light duty assignments. Never having shot a Glock .40, I've no clue if improper technique might be a contributing factor. Grip frame size may be part of the problem. They mentioned some other issues, like weapon breakage and things I won't go into here.

State of the art subs-define your terms. There are diesel-electric boats out there that are more silent than a nuke boat. Pray they bought an aging Soviet boat.

JoeM-don't push the knee. Better to grumble for a few extra days/weeks now than for years to come.

Gadzooks-just found out the bullets Cor-Bon uses in the DPX are $0.85 or so EACH! That's before brass, primer, powder & box. Think I just changed my mind about picking up a couple of boxes to play with.

WR Moore
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 00:00:57 (ZULU)

Alan, Duman, All,

The Iranians have 3 Kilo class subs from the Russians. They're Deisel-Electric, short range, but quiet. They've had them for some years & maintenance is an unknown. I'm pretty confident our naval bretheren are keeping close tabs on these particular holes in the water.

Global security has more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_Iranian_Navy_Vessels

or click my name.

Ragardless of the subs, Iran's going to go for the nuclear gold as fast as they can, and no one is doing anything to stop them, except saying "Stop that. Stop!, or I'll say stop again!!".

Going in on the ground is an iffy thing at best with current leadership (political AND military). I don't know how we can avoid the glass parking lot option. ...just hope we don't wait until one of our cities is a crater.

Bill

Bill McCormick
Bristol. Race is over, thank God., - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 01:43:24 (ZULU)

Bill McCormic...

>"except saying "Stop that. Stop!, or I'll say stop again!!"."<

That is NOt enough... you have to put some teeth in the threat, like "Stop that. Stop!, or you can't have donuts at the coffie break".

That'll put the fear god (little "g") in them...

Keep in mind that the latest Ruski diesel/electric subs are quieter that a nuke, and easy to maintain... sink them on sight is the easy way to deal with them.

"HEADLINES... Iranian submarine mysteriously disappears at sea. No sign of survivors. Us and British say must have been a machanicle failure, but Iranian embassy claims foul play. US and British say they have no knowledge of it".

My kind of headlines ;)))))

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 02:40:45 (ZULU)

If our Iraq iniative works for us, Iran will have a revolution and the mad mullahs will die gruesome deaths.

If Iraq does not work, Iran will have gained enormous prestige by driving us out and the mullahs will move into the power vacum WE CREATED!

If they lose, they die. If they win, they control the gulf oil and are in position to lead Allah's global jihad against the Satanic Infidel.

Bottom line; We are in a war of survival with Iran. Right now. Somebody tell that dork on "The Daily Show" and the befuddled old geezers on "60 minutes".

CDC'
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 02:50:18 (ZULU)

Iran; youz guys gonna get into a rant onthis one! I oughta just take a pill though... and save my rant for the blog.

Ya'll remember any of my rants over the last couple of years on Negligent Discharge issues? Well, sometime back, a program was slowly implemented (and even slower on adoption)...but:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4143205.html

Or, click my name. It seems that the blindingly obvious is eventually obvious to even our Generals. Go figure...

No shootie today. Foul knee pain, a wife at work, and three uncooperative little princesses (piartes, more like) conspired against a hot range.

Oh well, I got all week with nuthin' better to do!

Joe M
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 02:56:23 (ZULU)

Gents,

Duman, my "used and abused" has much to due with op tempo and the fact that reserves can only be deployed by act of congress. That was done for DS/DS, but the reserve components continue to be deployed now. I'm not sure about the subtle nuances of the law, but it seems to me the the ready reserve should have been put back in a peace time status. The Marines can be deployed to the last man by Presidential Order. Thus they are "The President's Own".

Someone needs to increase the size of our active duty forces to meet current need, institute the draft, or start acknowledging the high op tempo and making previsions for that in the Reserve Component. None of that is being done, at present, that I am aware of...anyone out there have new info?

Joe M., Weapons safety. We see eye to eye on that. What I refer to as "Range Mentality". After all the only time real ammo was issued was for qualifiction, in most cases. Lost three Marines in one week after DS/DS wound down. Command reaction was "turn in your ammo". That was '91 and they are just NOW getting the picture? Gives new meaning to the term "slow learner"!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 04:16:47 (ZULU)

Joe M, I'm free and clear Wednesdays and Thursdays, I have guns and will travel. Phone #'s the same, if you lost it, roster mail works too.

Iranian boats are Type 636 Kilos, good diesel electrics, but not what you'd want outside regional defensive use. They'd have to snort multiple times coming from Persian Gulf towards US, and that would be bad for them.

I did an interesting sniper comp yesterday. At The Site in Mt Carrol, IL. Except for my Marines, it was all LE guys and the scenarios showed it. Lots of close range, small target stuff from extemporaneous positions. Interesting and a nice wake up. The only thing we did real well on was the 170'ish yd hostage rescue shot from a house position downhill on a half scale target. I used a M40A1 PIP from GAP with a Mk 4 M3 10x with gen 2 reticle along with 190SMK's at 2610fps. Not the ideal setup. Next time I'm using the snub nosed 7-08 with 120gn V-maxs at 3100fps. Flat trajectory is more a matter of V than aero at these ranges, if you use 308, those 155 TAP loads are the way IMO. A 4-16, like the Nikon Tac would have come in handy too, fixed 10x came up short on the long hostage shot while it was slow at 30-40 yds, but not so bad since the rifle points well. S/F.....Ken M

Wrist damage from pistol shooting in 40S&W?? Please. Someone pimp slap those wimps to death.

Ken M
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 04:33:02 (ZULU)

RE: Army Weapons Immersion:

Not very immersion- like if you sleep with your weapon under your mattress and mag locked in your wall locker!

The handling training is getting better, but we still have a long way to go (says the guy who had to clear his empty M-9 twelve times yesterday during a trip from one base to another) ;-)

Doc Mac
A warm and Sandy Place, For another 2 weeks, - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 06:40:46 (ZULU)

Locked in a wall locker? So we're eliminating rule 1? All that teaches is sloppy habits.

Listen up boys, girls and senior officers; Smart people have worked out a drill that works. You don't have to make shit up. The work is done.

There are four rules:

Rule 1) All guns are always loaded. This isn't a "pretend" thing. They are HOT!

Rule 2) Never allow your muzzle to cover anything you are not willing to destroy. If the gun isn't loaded, see rule 1.

Rule 3 (AKA: The Golden Rule)) Never touch the trigger until your sight is on the target.

Rule 4) Be sure of your target and everything in line with your target. There are worse things than getting shot. Shooting an innocent person is one of those things.

Guns are emergency equipment. As such, they are used when attention is focused elsewhere. Under stress, they will automaticall be handled as you are accustomed to handling them. Always handle every gun like your life depends on doing it correctly. Because it does.

CDC'
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 07:09:33 (ZULU)

CDC, for military use Rule 4 is probably better as "Keep weapon on safe until you intend to fire." Which is what I was taught in the .mil, after learning the others from many years in competition and having responsible parents.

Being sure of your target is proper, would have kept several of my teams from being lit up by convoys full of scared kids cruising down Tampa, but there's usually a lot of unknown stuff between you and the target and beyond. Killing unfortunate civvies is undesirable, avoided as much as possible and still happens anyways, and always will. I had a Marine put the better part of a can (48rds) of Mk 19 40mm into a house we were taking PKM fire from. Quite possibly the savages had civvies in there with them. Matters not at all.

Other than that slight quibble, completely agree. Clearing weapons when you go in and out of all sorts of places is freaking stupid. The more you fumble fuck about, the greater your chances of blowing rds about the countryside. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 09:02:26 (ZULU)

Ken M: Of course, if Jihadis are using their own damned women and children for cover (!!), Rule 4 becomes Rule 4(a).

CDC'
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 13:57:55 (ZULU)

Kilo-class is a good boat, but has no legs. Quiet and has to snorkle. Driving one of those things across the Atlantic (or worse, Pacific) would be a chore that I don't think the Iranians are up to. Any good P3 Orion crew (yes, I'm prejudiced) could prosecute and dump anything the Iranian Navy (har har) could push that far, and do it before lunch. I'd like to watch one of their sub crews in action....probably look like an old Abbott and Costello movie!

Just got back from a week's cruise on one of the Carnival line's newest ships, the Conquest. After about two days, I was feeling a little weird. I finally figured out that I was in Condition White. I can't remember the last time I could let that happen. Strange feeling. Probably gained 10 lbs. Got up this morning and had to make my own coffee....Waaah! Did some things I swore never to do again, like go in salt water more than knee deep, or get inebriated (sounds so much better than drunk) in a place where I can't understand the language. It's been so long since I could fully relax that I'd forgotten how. And I've still got a week to go up to Badlands and shoot and BBQ. SAPD's gonna hafta send out an AWOL team to drag me back to work....only a year and 3 months and I can do it for good.....

Took a copy of the koran to read during sunburn training. Know your adversary and all that.....dudes, these gibrones are seriously whacked if they can base a religion on rambling like that. It may not be PC, but anyone who says it's on a par with the Torah or Bible hasn't read it. Sheesh. The phone book is more illuminating.

Anyway, it's good to be back and see that everyone is ok.....knees aside. Anyone in the area of Grandfield, Ok. this coming Friday and/or Saturday, drop in for a steak and a cold one. I'm taking an actual smoker up and leaving it so Bobby'll have ALL the necessary gear for a GTG facility! (just kidding, Bobby!)

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 14:04:46 (ZULU)

Patron Joe, hope you're still not overdoing it....

On Glocks and "..for those who will not or can not get good with anything else.", I think this is essentially what Dave Sevigny said at the IDPA world championship (in 2005, the 2006 championship is next month), again (he might have said that in 2002, 2003, and 2004 as well), when he won, all those years, with a Glock. Dave ran the course in '05 with an overall of 184.61 in the stock service pistol class, masters division. That 184.61 just happened to be the best score of anyone at the Nationals, regardless of class or division, to include Jerry Miculek (220.94 in the enhanced service revolver / masters).

But really, the heck with Glocks, and Dave, and especially the bill wilson cheat-a-thon for that matter. I wanna know who can set me up on a date with Julie Goloski. No, really, I'm serious.

On the 9mm, like Bill, I was taken with CorBon when they first came out. At that time, I "disected" a round, and found that it was nothing more than good brass, Winchester primer, a Sierra 115 JHP, and a powder that appeared to be Hodgdons HS-6. I copied that round for quite a while, before "cheaping out", and changing bullets to the Winchester 115 JHP. The only reason I cheaped out was because when I was running IDPA seriously, I was shooting a LOT, and couldn't afford that many Sierras. This load clocks (depending on barrel length and such) between 1350 and 1400 fps, by my chrono.

Not that long ago, I got into a serious discussion about these high-speed 9mms. I've been convinced that bullet manufacture technology has advanced to the point that we're now mimicking NASCAR. Used to be that bigger was better, regardless. Then it became a matter of smaller at higher RPM (velocities), now it has developed into smarter (better engineering), not harder. I've run the velocities on mine down to about 1250 fps, for enhanced penetration.

For a while, I flirted with the 124 / 125 weight bullets. I've still got a good load that clocks 1300 fps with them, but haven't loaded any in many years.

I'd try the DPX round, as I've heard some interesting stories about it too. EXCEPT I'd need to take out a bank loan for the ammo, and even the bullets. Around $15 per box of 25 bullets just to load my own.

Sir Wes, I've given up on trying to talk with the Smyrna Schmucks. Glock won't improve squat. The last time I called and noted my ideas, I was essentially told "yeah, tell it to Chuck Taylor, we've been telling him no to the same thing for years now". Great customer relations, eh? But really, I'm not getting the slide because it's stainless - I'd rather have the surface cyanonitrided, like Glock does. I just want it without the rubbish collection hole in the top of the slide, and since Glock refuses to produce them that way, and Caspian will..... They're making them out of 416, through hardened to about 40 Rockwell. I'm questioning if I'll rust it or not.

9mm and 40 has never been a consideration for me. I've got my 9mms, I've got my 45s. Why would I want to try and blend the two into something that isn't either one, and snappy to boot? That having been said, if I were going to run a 40, I wouldn't think Glock would be my first choice.

And Bill, it's not "Stop that. Stop!, or I'll say stop again!!", it's "now run along before I taunt you a seconnnn tahhhhm".

Geoff, is there a way to lighten up the Sully stock? I'd like to clean about a half pound out of mine......

Bravo
Monday, August 28, 2006, at 19:21:08 (ZULU)

Stern Warning Country....

"Stop that. Stop!, or you can have donuts at the coffie break"

"now run along before I taunt you a seconnnn tahhhhm"

BBBbbbwaaaahahahaha!!!

Of course, stern warnings only work if there's a BIG FIST behind them. Sadly, I can't believe there is (yet). Stanley Kurtz got it right today (click my name)

The history of the western democracies is one of late awakenings. So I don't think we're looking at the end of western civilization, but I DID spend the afternoon looking at shelter designs.

Bill

edited to correct spelling

Bill McCormick
If service is honorable, it's worth doing regardless of reward., ...even for the ungrateful, ...and ignorant. - Monday, August 28, 2006, at 22:03:17 (ZULU)

9MM crap? Damm I could insult guys who think highly of it but instead will just ask a question. If you had to get shot (Yes we all freakin know no one wants to get shot, but been there done that and hsit happens) would you prefer

A) 9mm best available factory round

B) 40 Cal best available factory round

C) 45acp best factory available round.

Now if you are honest and not insane you answered A . If you answered B or C please go back to school and figure out what 2 plus 2 is.

LOL

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 01:30:27 (ZULU)

Speaking of safety; My kids and I pulled up to the firing line and tossed out our gear. My 12 year old daughter loaded up the Browning Buckmark, threw out a handfull of 12 gauge hulls and started bouncing them around. I walked up to the old fart who was there and told him that I needed to set targets. He snarled, "Tell the kids over there that are blasting away." He was pissed. I thought about it a sec and saw why he was upset. Most pre-teens don't know beans about guns so most dads would have been hovering over them like a harrier.

He didn't know that their gun handling skills were almost certainly better than his.

CDC'
Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 02:11:15 (ZULU)

Mike-I don't want to get shot by any of them:))) But, sometimes your choice may be highly influenced by factors other than what one round might or might not do. I do think the .40 is something of a political solution to a problem better addressed in other ways. I did lug a 1911 in .45 for about 18 years.

Since Bravo mentioned IDPA, I read up on it and journeyed off to my first match to get some trigger time on my new toy under stress. Note to self: no matter how many of your other pistols the lead bullet reloads work in, DO NOT assume they're gonna work in your new pride & joy. There's a couple other "learning experiences" for me to keep in mind.

Boy, there appears to be quite a discrepancy between what the rule book says and how match directors interpret/enforce. The flame of the ideals are bright, but the shadows spread.

WR Moore
Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 03:31:30 (ZULU)

Dan: I once received a safety lesson from an old timer on how I should carry my rifle. later that day, that bastard shot my house. It is still inconceivable to him that anyone younger than 70 might know more about safety than he does. Some old guys are just that way.

Also, agree on the basic rules. The army has folks making up new rules who never learned those golden absolutes. So, they make their own, drawing from the arms room clearing procedure. Then they took it to extreme (Doc Mac noted this)--and they wonder why the problem persists. Duh. Look at the number of folks in this country with high interest in firearms, add the insane kabuki dance on the peacetime ranges (place your weapon on the stake, and step away...be afraid, be very afraid...) to expose them to their guns--and you get wimps making wimp rules...and NGs out the yang.

Bravo: get an ACE. Heheh. That'll lighten up that sully.

Gotta say, the healing is slower than I was led to believe. I'm wondering if this isn't worse than the little pain before...

Joe M
Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 06:14:03 (ZULU)

JoeM "Gotta say, the healing is slower than I was led to believe. I'm wondering if this isn't worse than the little pain before..."

JoeM: Take yer time and heal right - heal once. Be patient....Push when competent physical therapy folks tell ya to... Painful, but good for ya. I too have had knee surgery.

Take care all --

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 13:49:04 (ZULU)

Last week a friend in CA had a close friend shot in the neck by an 86-year old man. Don't know if the old man had dementia, hallucinations, or some other mental defect which caused him to shoot the guy (described as a gentle giant).

The victim died Sunday.

Given my experience with my grandfather, who also had dementia, I think it prudent for the family to surreptitiously remove firearms from those folks.

Duman
Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 16:01:14 (ZULU)

Mike,

Shot where? Heart? Head? Makes no difference. Dead is dead. I don't think I could tell the difference in the level of pain between any of them in a non life threatening wound. I plan not to find out.

I know two guys that accidentally(stupidly) shot themselves in their left leg. One guy was playing with his 1911, and the other guy was climbing a wire fence with a Colt Woodsman in his hand. Both were hit on the inside of their left calf muscle. The guy that got shot by the .22LR almost lost his leg. The other guy was back at work after about a month or so.

I have shot deer with a 9mm. Its legal here. Neck shot. It fell, and tried to get up, but died on the spot. I shot a deer with .308. Heart/lung area. Good shot. Deer ran uphill nearly 100 yds. before dropping.

My point is simple. The only thing for sure about gunshot wounds is the uncertainty of the results. There are so many exceptions it is unreal. Just my opinion. Carry what works for you.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 18:28:14 (ZULU)

Gents,

Caliber war/stopping power country: Seems like every time the subject comes up we take off on tangents and our personal belief's about the subject. Inumerable studies and practical data have only proved there are no absolutes. Use enough gun...of your caliber choice. Placement is EVERYYHING.

The only way way I know to ensure a 100% stop (maybe) is a solid hit to the CNS (NO, Bravo, it's not a new TV syndicate)...;-) This means the bullet must penetrate that far...which leads us back to the debate. What is enough penetration and stopping power?

Tactically, there are several schools of thought that make perfect sense. First there was the two shots and access. Then the two to the heart one to the head teaching. Now we have a segment of trainers that recommend "shoot till the target is nuetralized/down". Very few train for multiple threats. Special unit's being the exception.

Personally, I train to the second standard and for multiple target engagements. If you can "El Presidente" within Jeff Cooper's standards then disregard that last statement. I like the comment one trainer made: Don't shoot 'til you think he's down, shoot until he thinks he is".

A few years ago we started a group that was open to all comers. Rules were simple. You shot the course based on what you normally carry. Not what you bring to a call out. All scenario's were timed, but use of cover/concealment and tactics were critiqued afterward. We all learned and benefited from the training. The only thing better would be Simunitions or some such.

Just back in from cleaning my Combat Commander. It's still the pistol I shoot best. It's a ritual I go through every few weeks when not training enough. I consider a couple times a month NOT enough, but it's way ahead of most folks out there.

Joe M., keep after the knee. You'll snap back. Your's truely is working on it. The shoulder is no longer snapping and popping, but the ankle is as good as it's going to git. The price I pay for getting badly out of shape and finding out that healing is slow for us older folks.

World situation: Still want to be ill when I pick up the paper. I don't know what's worse. The War being relegated to page 6 or having a decade old unsolved murder stealing the headlines. Probably a good thing, because if I saw something really newsworthy I'd probably have a heart attack.

My best to all. This is a great bunch.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 21:09:07 (ZULU)

Accuracy is one of three important factors. The other two are speed and power. If accuracy were everything, we would carry elaborate .22 target pistols.

Any gun above some power threshold has a probability greater than zero of stopping a fight. We want the cartridge with the highest probability that also allows an adequate response time and proper placement.

DVC means Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas, after all.

Standard doctrine. Nothing new.

CDC'
Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 22:23:57 (ZULU)

What I usta' tell my students (mostly women looking for a CCW) when they would ask about what to carry: Carry the biggest thing that you can shoot accurately AND that you WILL carry. Old saws with a lot of wisdom: A hit with a 22 beats the heck out of a miss with a 44, and a 22 in the hand beats a 44 in the safe.

I would disagree a bit about the elaborate 22 target pistol.... ain't likely to be carrying it concealed...and not havin' it is not havin' it.

It comes down to personal choice, which includes aesthetics and emotional values, not just "numbers from a study". Personally I carry a steel commander-sized 45....not because its any more effective than a +P+ 9mm (or the 125gr. 357), but because I'm comfortable with it, and I DO carry it (along with a 25auto backup), and I "like it".

First rule of a gunfight: Have a gun.

Second rule, if you have a choice, don't go (some folks don't have a choice)

Third rule, don't knowingly take a pistol to a gunfight. (I personally like Clint Smith's philosophy...the only use for a pistol it to fight your way to a rifle.)

I bet we could write a book (oops, probably been done already)

Just for foofraw, I've chrono'd 135 gr. CorBon 40 S&W's at 1400fps out of a 5" XD...that's certainly in the range of "the most effective handgun ctg"...125gr 357 in a 4" barrel.

But If I had to, and didn't have a choice, and could choose, I'd probably use my DPMS308 with 125gr TNT's...I'd bet that's about as effective as anything short of crew-served high explosives.

We havin' fun yet?

Steve
Butte, MT, USofA - Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 23:22:02 (ZULU)

The Bills, not to throw gas on fire but the human body knows the difference between the rounds. What happens to a deer means nothing in this case and has no validity. Bill getting shot does hurt. But better to be hurt than dead.

Having been on both ends of bullets and doing shooting investigations showed me the difference. Here it is in nutt shell.

Pistol rounds dont do as well as rifle rounds but some do better than others. Get as much as you can pack and still have a weapon you can move and fight with

9mm factory offerings either dont expand and zip through or expand and fail to get to vitals. Hence poor performance in shootings. The round just does not have enough power. Plain and simple. Hence the one of two bad things happen. Remember this is not rifle round where velocity will do the damage. It has to be woound cavity.

40 and 45 acp offer better results than 9mm. With 9mm I hvae experinced first hand and saw failures to stop a 40 or 45 would have worked on. Not theroy fact.

40 cal is best caliber in smaller sized weapons. I have seen results from this that worked very well in areas I saw failures with 9mms. 40 is answer in smaller hand guns.

45acp, king of ability to rapidly throw stopping size lead down range and do accurately. Enough penetration and enough size to say good night.

You can argue all the add pushed BS you want but time has shown what works. Anyone else notice the 45acp, extinct ten years ago, is king again? Yeah we stared shooting folks in other than Bench Racing Talk events again.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Tuesday, August 29, 2006, at 23:30:39 (ZULU)

heheh, pistol wars XXI; all I asked was whether 9mm bullets progressed any since I turned off completely (forced to wear one with FMJ in the mag). Thanks, Bravo, for the update.

Of course, I got much more. Lemme review:

The worse choice of a bullet is the one that misses.

(practice, carry, and practice with what you can use)

The worst gun to have in a bad situation is sitting in your safe.

(pick one that you WILL carry-practice some more)

If you can shoot a .45 like you are part of it, and can hide it; why carry a target .22?

(use all you can, use what you will carry and, by gawd, practice)

It's starting to get redundant now...but this is good ol' common sense. And, if there was a perfect answer for all shapes and sizes, we'd all own 1911s cuz nothing else would be made:))

I love the opinions around here! They liven the place up!

Parting shot: WTF is "practical" about that sport anymore? Space guns, quick clip speed rigs that will put a gun on the ground on the first door jamb you happen by, electro sights (excuse me, Mr. badguys, while I turn on this sight...), and oversize comps, ports and slick-jobs with hair triggers...yeah, that is practical. About the same as depth charges are practical for bass fishing.

Maybe they should start those events off with a Nasty-Nick style obstacle course. If you still have a gun, and it still functions, you then shoot the comp! Heheheh.

Gamers suck! I hope CASS doesn't descend into that abyss any further than it has already. It is still "fun" even you use full-house loads against the squibbers...

Joe M
Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 02:13:28 (ZULU)

Mike,

Yeah, I know getting shot hurts, but I don't know if the body knows what hit it. Guy at work got shot in the neck at about ten feet with a .357mag. He said he thought the guy had missed him, and that it was debris that hit his neck. Said it felt like getting hit with a rock. The bullet is still in his left shoulder. He was able to get away from the guy until help arrived. He needed lots of surgery to survive. My point is that he didn't know he'd actually been shot. The suspect went to prison, and is due to be released in another couple of years.

We have to use Glock pistols on or off duty. No problem there. I have a choice of using the Glock17 I was issued, or qualifying with my personal Glock22(my class was the last class to get issued the 9mm). We use Federal Hydrashok ammo. 147gr for 9mm, and 155gr for 40SW. I chose the Glock22 for the better ammo so you know that I aint too far from your suggestion about carrying what works best. If there is an advantage I want it.

About a month ago some thug tried to rob a store downtown. The lady clerk pulled a .44mag and fired twice hitting him once center mass. He stumbled out the door and dropped dead. The locals all were upset about the shooting. They said he was a good guy that just got out of prison, and was trying to get his life together.

I appreciate your point of view. You have seen lots more shootings than I have.

Later,

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 05:06:38 (ZULU)

Well I'm having problems with holsters, so let's see if anyone has a good idea. I'm looking for something that will fit my G37 (that's a 45 caliber pistol!) with a Surefire X200 attached. The Steel Challenge Special does great for open carry, but I'm looking for an OWB more geared for concealment, under a vest. If I can't get a good recommendation out of this crew, I'll just go with the same Alessi I love, and leave the light in a pocket or some such.

Patron Mike, I can't help but find the paradox amusing. When it comes to rifles, light, small bullets at high velocity are ideal. When it comes to pistols, heavy, large bullets at slow velocities are ideal. I'm wondering though how long ago the info you got the hard way was. One of the fellows I discuss these things with is close buddies with a big-time HP pistol bullet designer, who has done stuff for a few of the big companies. From what I gather, the better designs (that aren't velocity dependent like my old recipie was) are designed more for balance....

Bill, yeah, the bill wilson cheat-a-thon can be highly variable from club to club. I'm blessed with good club (normally), but at quite the distance. One of the ROs has "donated" the use of his car for some of the stages, with the admonition "if you put a hole in my car, you lose, and I'm gonna be pissed". Hasn't happened yet, but hard to believe a "fight from the car" stage isn't as close to real as possible. So even when they're not ideal, I think it's the best game in town. Well, kind of. Actually, we're not allowed to use the IDPA name any longer, so all events are called "IDPA-like", to get around the cheat-a-thon rules. Since Ken Hackathorn gave up on IDPA, it has spiraled downhill in my opinion.

Patron Joe, I don't think the ACE is something I can do. The Sully actually uses a carbine length buffer tube, so I don't think it would go far enough back to support the ACE stock. Unless I went with the entry one that is too short (but would be perfect for Sir Wes, since he likes the Entry stock I found just a touch too short). Am I missing something? Oh, and on the run before the gun suggestion, you're making MY knee hurt just thinking about it ;-)

Bravo
Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 05:15:13 (ZULU)

Bravo: Is there a paradox? If you mean that Mike's statements are self-contradictory, I don't see it. Let the X-axis be bullet speed, the Y-axis be bullet weight and the Z-axis be a measure of cartridge effectiveness you like. The graph would show a fascinating response surface. It seems to me that the common handgun cartridges would have a domain which would not intersect the domain of rifle cartridges.

Different critters living in different places. Cooper says that something happens all at once at 2400 fps.

Of course you could also toss in more input variables.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 06:19:14 (ZULU)

Pistol Country

I had my heart set on a 10mm of some description a whiles back then they jerked it out from under me with this .40-almost-a-10 deal. What gives? Was over penetration and recoil the real problem or was is political on some level?

Having shake-n-baked many whitetails with the .44, I worry about over penetration. Some folks have seen too many of Mr. Eastwoods films. I hit one high in the right hip that came out low in the left front shoulder and kept on going. what`s that, like 3 feet of deer? Wouldn`t want to have been on the other side of that! I loaded up some Gold Dot 240gr. two years ago to increase the likelyhood of expansion and the results are the same on venison. Haven`t recovered a slug yet. They seem to blow right through just like the Sierra 240 HP. Even bone has neat circular bites out of it. They seem to hold together well, just not sure if they expand in the trip through. Around 1525 out of a 7 1/2" Ruuu Ruuuug... er Redhawk.

Maj. Joe,

Your blog rocks with tits! Keep up the good news. I`ve turned a couple of fence-sitting, short-arm thinkers on to it so far. Also found out how much I didn`t know about the scummy neck trimmers and their ilk.

Steven S. Racer
Somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, USA - Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 06:54:08 (ZULU)

Looks like it's really over for Winchester... and they were so close to a deal.

http://www.thomasauction.com/auctions/auction.cfm?intProjectID=67

SHIT!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 13:46:45 (ZULU)

Bravo, Christ I retired 12 months ago. Was at Departments range last month. Talked with buddy who runs major ammo company last week. I think my data is not too old.

Here it is in short form. We have been over this before.

Rifle bullets incapacitate through three ways

Penetration. Almost any rifle round will have plenty and you need minimum to get to vitals after it goes through clothing

Permanent Wound Cavity. Once again rifle rounds all tend to do good here because of the last issue

Hydrostatic Shock. This is what happens in short when a bullet travels so fast the bodys water basically causes a shock wave when hit and does even more damage to itself. Rifle rounds cause this and pistol round rarely do. Not sure on exact figures as its been a few years since I went through the big name military/LE lectures on wound balistics, but I believe its around 1700fps. Far fatser than issue pistol ammo.

Now the thing about small bullets versus big bullets in rifles you have completely screwed up. I did not say a 5.56 worked better than a 7,62. I said the 5.56 worked well enough and when all factors where taken into consideration it worked better for many things than a 7.62.

1.CQB the 5.56 has plenty of power and faster shot to shot than a 7.62. Less blast for clsoe work.

2.For load out the average man can carry a bunch more 5.56 ammo than 7.62

3. The AR platform is inheritantly more accurate than the M14 platform and I think this is where your feelings get hurt. Sorry but facts are facts.

4. We are not talking sniping here as 7.62 is superior in that role to 5.56 and in any role past 600 yards.

In pistols its always a balance

Some have enough penetration but because of bullet design the wound cavity is small. 9mms suffer this more than either 40 or 45s do. I did not include .357 mags in the equation because it is not a 9mm round and revolvers are all but dead. The .357 has better bullets, flatter in front and more velocity than a 9mm. The .357 does not have to feed through semi auto designs (Please I know some .357 freaks exist but we are talking working pistols). The 115 9mm's are perfect example of this. I have been on the end of "Officer please dont shoot me again" after three 115 grain rounds to center chest that did not go deep enough to do anything and suspect was released to jail four days latter from hospital. In contrast saw one round to same area of chest kill guy right there but going through heart with 180 grain 40 cal Hydro Skock round.

The 9mm rounds that penetrate suffer from lack of permanent wound cavity. I lost count of number of wonder 147 grain bullet failures I ahve seen. Zipped through like HB with little or no immediate effect. A buddy hit guy three times with 147 grains in running gun battle, that only ended because third round cut spinal cord. All where good shots and marksmanship was excelelnt.

The 9mm rounds problem is simple. The case does not provide enough power to get round, that expands enough, to get deep enough to do the job.

The 40 and 45acp have just enough power to get job done more often than the 9mm. They still suck but less than 9mm

A rifle will do the job more often than any fighting pistol round.

I hear the old its not what you hit them with its where you hit them. Well thats crap because I have seen rounds fail to perform and stick in things because of lack of power. Heck I had a pistol round stick in my patrol car's windshield, directly in front of my face, that would have taken me out if it had more power, so the where hit is important but where hit with enough power is far more important.

I am done with this but I suggest dropping Peterson Publishing for your ammo knowledge. I have sharred what I have learned and have nothing to sell here. Except it for what its worth.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 14:58:38 (ZULU)

Bill B, we carried 147 Hydro Shock and 180 grain Hydro Shocks. I think your choice of 155s is a good one. The 147 grain stuff was terrible, except from non SD MP5. Regular MP5 seemed to work OK but SD bled too much speed from 147's

I also think the Glock22 is a good pistol.Best buy for money on market and this is from old 1911 guy. Glocks I hate but they just keep working and working. I often carry a G22 for everyday now because now that I am retired LE I need a weapon I wont cry about if I need to use it and then loose it to years of legal debate. Somehow I would cry if my Jardine 1911's where gone. I still carry a 1911 when I fear bad things but going to bank and store its mostly Glock. I just had steel site and a trigger job done on it.

Undude

Mike Miller
Ca, - Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 15:05:18 (ZULU)

If Winnie moves production offshore I'll buy my kids three model 70s each.

The intel that Sadaam was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger turned out to be sound and the CIA knew it the whole time. Tenant was using this for his own purposes. Armitage at the useless goddamned State Department told Novak about Plame. Colin Powell knew it the whole time. State let Bush take the heat because it undermined the war that they had opposed the whole time.

CIA and State did this for institutional reasons and to undercut the the administration's war effort. Click my name.

"DF: treason

Offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one's country OR OF ASSISTING ITS ENEMIES IN WAR. In the U.S., the framers of the Constitution defined treason narrowly-as the levying of war against the U.S. OR THE GIVING OF AID and comfort to its enemies..."

We don't stand enough sons of bitches against the wall and shoot them.

CDC'
Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 15:08:23 (ZULU)

Bill McCormick wrote this:

"The history of the western democracies is one of late awakenings. So I don't think we're looking at the end of western civilization, but I DID spend the afternoon looking at shelter designs."

Heard Pat Buchanan being interviewed about his new book yesterday. Don't get too complacent about the survival of Western Civilization. When you consider that out of the nearly 7 Billion population that those of "Western origin" are about 12%, it comes into perspective pretty fast.

The situation in America is pretty dire. Buchanan is just looking at the population dynamics of unrestricted immigration and open borders with Mexico, but the real story is how the corporations that our grandparents etc founded and funded have turned Global and have no loyalty to the Nation and people that conceived and nurtured them. The "growth markets" are elsewhere, so their loyalties are elsewhere. We've been sold-out since NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and all the tax-incentive give aways that paid companies to send their factories and jobs abroad.

Slavery had costs that the corporate types are not beneficent enough to pay. Why pay for housing, food, medical and all other "human costs" when you can pay pennies a day and make the workers go away after their shift?

Paddy B. is right, but sees only part of the picture; he can't tell the whole truth or he'd lose his gig. Still, compelling reading for those who haven't seen the Mexican Invasion firsthand, or encountered the foreign enclaves that cluster in our major population areas.

Bill, hope you take action on your inclination to develop a decent shelter. Call it a root cellar so you won't worry the clueless. Those in the know will commend you for your foresight.

Edward Hogan
Wednesday, August 30, 2006, at 17:55:53 (ZULU)

Bravo: Holstering a flashlight mounted on a pistol is probably not worth the effort. I think, if you gave it enough thought, you'd find a separate pocket somewhere for the flashlight. First, in a CCW-style "shoot" scenario--you will probably want to pull the trigger long, long before pressing a switch. Second, you'll also want to produce the piece quickly, almost certainly quicker than you actually can produce it--and the extra mountings will kinda make that problamatic (violation of kiss). Third, if you find you need a flashlight, you've also discovered the time to mount it. Problem solved. There are some neat rigs that mount the flashlight along side on a "rail" for that purpose--so others think similarly to what I am saying here. For home defense, going to bed wearing a holster is uncomfy; and a holstered weapon on the nightstand is another KISS violation...the only reason I can think of to keep a light mounted is for some tactical nightfire competition. In a real world situation, I'd need to be real certain that any light production on my part was for final target verification--not random search. In other words, if I am pointing a gun at anyone, he probably has one too.

There's another angle to consider. &nb