Sniper Country Duty Roster

Jody- My 03 bench gun is a Springfield and the sticker in the butt plate leaves me to believe it was customized in 1955. A web site check on the serial number placed it's production in 1934. It has a 20" custom straight profile heavy barrel (1 3/16") and is chambered in 250 Savage. The stock is a custom walnut stock, heavy and flat on the fore-end and a Monte Carlo check piece. Checkering on the fore-end and pistol grip areas is fine and still excellent with double boarders. The bolt has been polished in the white and the handle replaced with a sleek turned down type. The action is incredibly smooth and quick. It has double set adjustable brass triggers. Standard pull is 2.75 lbs, set pull under 6 ounces (that's as light as my scale would go). The bottom of the pistol grip has a scroll engraved sterling cap with a trap door. The trap door opens to a small chamber that looks like it holds a GI greese pot (at least one fits like it was made for it). On the bottom of the comb there is a long spring loaded blued trap door that covers a jeweled cartirdge holder inleted into the stock, for 4 rounds. Butt plate is heavy steel polished in the white with medium checkering. It's set up with Unertl mounts and all the work looks like it was done by a master. Don't ask the $$$ lets say no one was bidding on the old rifles that day and my cousin had to bid against me once just to validate the auction (there was a two bid minimum rule). Now I just need to find out who that crossed key logo belonged to and get a proper Unertl or Lyman scope.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Arnoldland, US of A - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 00:35:39 (ZULU)

Gents,

Home at last. The greeting at the airport was quite a show---the wife, kids...and the folks hanging around---hugs from the family and applause from the crowd. Rather felt important there for a minute. Of course, reality comes in the form of a nasty diaper...where the little one gets the mess from is beyond me! Yeah---it is great being home.

Been busy lately too, as you can imagine. Haven't posted since Kuwait. Too much re-unitin' going on 'round heeah...

I see the pie fights in gear as usual...

Bobby--Blake and I are being forced out to see you for a basic rifle course. I'll go by the website and see when we can swing in. Seems "father and Son" time is a must in her eyes. Heheh. I married a good 'un.

Bruce: My hold bags get delivered o/a sep 9; some of the boxes will turn your way. Not enough to really thank you, but a couple of things to show around.

It is great to be home. Now, when this rain stops, me and the boy have a pile of ammo to burn thru. The range is a bit overgrown though. 15 months makes the weeds grow---and kids too. My god....are these really my kids?

Damn good to be in the good ol' US of A again!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 00:50:59 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Welcome home SIR!!!!! Glad you're back home in one piece. Thanks for all you have done. It is most definitely appreciated.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 01:00:04 (ZULU)

Stock packs-shameless plug here: they're available at the site PX. DUH!!!

Undude: OUCH! The kiddies can be so cruel.

WR Moore
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 01:37:59 (ZULU)

Joe S;

It sounds like a beauty. I love '03s.

Joe M;

Thank you for a great job and welcome home Trooper!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:13:13 (ZULU)

JOE !!!! Welcome home brother !!!!!!!!

brian k. sain
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:19:27 (ZULU)

Gouch

Well Stated

If nothing else Supprit sure is windy and opinionated

Looking at the prior posts It seems like the Pissing people off is the only way Supprit can get attention.

Maybe we ough to consider letting him rant by himself to himself instead of feeding his self defeating rambling IMHO

Back to lurking and learning

Semper Fi

bomac
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:40:49 (ZULU)

Joe,

WELCOME HOME! Deal stands sir..anytime you and Blake want to come..come on. If we dont' have a class going and you want to come, come. Welcome here anytime.

Ok..On a shooting note.....This is for those that have actually done the following and have recorded the data:

When shooting into a wind blowing straight line from target to you, with wind speed above 15mph, and at ranges greater than 600 yards, what did your bullet do?

Also interested in hearing about shooting in the above conditions, when the wind is blowing from the shooter to the target, straight line.

Now..my RECORDED data in the above..Shooting 168 SMK's, 44.4 grn Varget, Muzzle approx. 2600 fps.

Shooting into the wind I have to dial down 2 MOA at 1k.

Shooting with the wind I have to dial up 2 MOA at 1k.

Anyone else ever had this strange occurance?

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:58:27 (ZULU)

Major Joe, Welcome home..Job well done. Thanks for playing Santa while you were in the sand box.

Edited for spelling

HDR
OK, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:13:29 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Welcome home.

Thank You.

medicjim
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:14:38 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Welcome home, and THANK YOU!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:17:34 (ZULU)

Joe M. - WELCOME BACK!

I've been lurking around here since before you left and I can't believe that it has been 15 months. I'm getting to where I'm not that good with remembering things that occured more than 15 minutes ago any more. I'll bet there were times when you thought it was at least twice that long. Hope that everyone in the family is in good health and you can take a little catch-up time with them before getting back to anything to serious.

Glad your back all in one piece...

You know I don't like picatinny rails either 8=), cost me $155 Canadian ($115 US) for the Steyr picatinny rail for my new Steyr LG 100 FT (air) rifle. I got to say though, it sure is SWEET!

Back to lurking....Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:50:32 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Thank you, sir. Your service to our country will always be remembered here. Maybe you and Blake could make the (October) Fall Match @ Badlands as well. Would look forward to meeting you guys.

The Basic class is time well spent. You and Blake are gonna love it.

Mike/Undude,

Shoulda told her (in the immortal words of Augustus McCrae in "Lonesome Dove,") "the older the violin, the sweeter the music" ;)))))

BTW, I'm sending you mail, n/a.

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 04:52:29 (ZULU)

Joe M., Welcome Home...and of course Thank You...might wanna keep your mask handy for the lil presents you described from the little one though

Undude, good luck with your surgery..

BTW, anybody read "Crosshairs on the Kill Zone" yet..just finished it...pretty good book especially like the comment from a certain person id'd only as "GOOCH" in regards to women and sniping......when ya read it you'll know it....

Be safe all GOD BLESS THE USA

Marc
USA, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:00:06 (ZULU)

HUH??? Am I quoted in a book????

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:05:01 (ZULU)

Gooch...to answer your question unless there is another here it goes:

from[ Crosshairs on the Kill Zone by Craig Roberts and Charles W. Sasser ]

" As for female snipers..."Sure, why not? " sarcastically retorted a grizzled former Marine sniper and drill instructor who preferred to be identified only as Gooch. "Makes the hide a lot more cozier. If it gets real cold, the sharing of body heat would be great..."

theres more but i thought that was rather humorous if you want the rest email me i'll get it to ya....

Marc
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:15:52 (ZULU)

Welcome back Joe! You have become sort of a folkhero in these parts...

Michael
SJ, CA, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:18:23 (ZULU)

Joe,

Welcome home now reap your just deserts!! LOL!

Mike,

Always a pleasure talking to you, just remember not to sew under the influence of the meds...

All that grip and palms like rose petals!! DEFILADE!!!!

Spurrit,

You don't even rate "go to hell". You'll not find respect until you learn to give it.

Bill(Two Door)

Bill Moore
Goodview, Va, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 06:01:59 (ZULU)

Joe Welcome Home...

Mike, If you still have the warranty on that body take it back under the Lemon Law... HAHA Just funning with ya...

Dirty Steve, OUt

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 07:47:53 (ZULU)

Welcome back Joe!

I hope you kept notes from your foray into logistics, from what I've read so far it would make an interesting book to be published presumably after your have left the employ of Uncle Sam.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 11:13:24 (ZULU)

Major Joe,

Thank you Sir, and welcome home.

Bobby,

My data is effectively the same as yours but it also came from your range. I have data from Ind. but the winds weren't that strong, it still shows the same trend.

BKS,

Did you call him a cracker in french?

Mike,

Good luck w/ the surgery.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 11:17:53 (ZULU)

hey all, got a question that might seem a little bone headed to you all but I can't seem to find an answer to it on the net. I am trying to build a M24 the problem I am having is with the action I know it's a 700 action but is it a ADL, BDL, VS version type of action or are all these one and the same and the difference is in the barrel and stock combinations? Any help you guys can provide with this would be greatly appreciated.

Jody

Yes it was me who contacted you while I was serving overseas I am home now and am intrested in the range what types of ranges do they have there and what distances are they???

Gabriel
Biloxi, MS, Keesler - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 13:11:28 (ZULU)

Joe... glad to see you out of harms way, I was a bit uneasy at times about it all. Now if I could just get my other buddy back. But... oh well.

Bobby Whittington; yes, I've had that happen. My range sets n and s. and the wind changes from one direction or other over night many times. The short barrel on my .308 would just barely go subsonic with match kings when the wind was 20mph or more out of the south. Then the next day it would be ok and half the group size. I finally cured the problem with A-max's 168 that would stay supersonic up to 50mph or so. That was a 1000 yard observation but it taught me to pay attention to things a little closer. I don't think the ballistic programs will bare that out but you could convince me real easy. Some time a barometer shift with a storm can cause some extra turret twittering along with it so watch out for that as a double factor that can make the effect seem more than it is.

Brogers
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 13:57:49 (ZULU)

Joe - welcome back. Thank you for your contribution and your service to your country. I hope to run into you somewhere, so I can shake your hand, and thank you in person.

Bobby, last year at the Texas Long Distance Championship at Mineral Wells, one day we fired from the 1000 yard line with a tailwind that was running in the 15 - 20 mph range. I was firing Sierra 175 Matchkings at around 2675.

My bullets were going HIGH by about a half minute, and so were those of other shooters I talked to. We speculated that the wind was being angled up over the target berm, and raising the impact point, but of course we had no real way to test that. But the phenomenum was there, nevertheless.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 14:13:11 (ZULU)

Major Joe, WELCOME HOME Sir!!! Glad your home and in one piece! Look forward to buying you a few at BadLands! Yeah the October match is a great idea, one way to get some of these others to BadLands just to shake your hand and personally say THANK YOU!!

Sarge and the entire Sniper Country Staff!!

Oh and speaking of Roberts and Sasser "Crosshairs on the Kill Zone" Those of you that have been to BadLands and know Steve he gets a mention on pages 266 and 267.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 14:35:21 (ZULU)

Hey Joe, Glad to hear you made it back safe, Hope everything is as you expected. Things are getting interesting here. Met a couple of guys since you rolled that I think you would have got along with. Tell the Family hello. There was a break at 17 the other night, things got interesting.

Gents if you have some info for the 338 LapMag that you don't mind sharing you can send it to d_morgue@mailcity.com Appreciate the help

In life you tend to get what you pay for. If you buy a 70 dollar scope, thats what you get- 70 dollars worth of scope. If you want the best, then you need to be willing to shell out some coin. It really is almost that simple.

Keep your powder dry

Morgue
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 15:22:33 (ZULU)

Spurrit.

You said...

"Pete, BITE ME!!! If you wanna buy a coupla overpriced horses, I'll be happy to drop that much cash;"

You couldn't be more wrong if you stayed up all night and worked on it. If you wanna plow a field, then get a cheap, swayback plow horse - but if you wanna win the race, or you MUST win the race, get all the horsie you can beg, borrow, and steal for. This is a RACE website, not a PLOW website.

You have been given some VERY GOOD information from some of the best longrange shooters around - and you got it FOR FREE - don't be a rude-ignorant-ass, and thumb your nose at these guys. They have earned the right to give this information, you haven't earned the right to flip them the bird!!

You wanna see what an overpriced horses will shoot - drop me your direct e-mail address and I will send you a photo of a 3.5" computer disk and the rifle that did it - I gari-damn-tee it will get your attention...

...and it ain't no steeenkin Bushnell 4x12x40 - speaking of which, I still have one for sale - got it as a Thanksgiving gun club door prize - it's been forsale for 16 years - I just haven't met anyone dumb enough to buy it yet.

If you hate Picatinny rails and all the rest of that overpriced junk, what the hell are you doing here??

You might think of gettin' yo' shootin' info from:

http://www.300yd_deer_huntin'_country.com/

and for equipment, don't forget to go to:

http://www.cheap_shootin'_shit_fer_sale.com/

And don't bother trying to insult me - I have thicker skin than all these bumz put together... ;))

Gooch says that I have the personality of 60 grit sandpaper - but that's only cuz he met me on a good day ;))

'yote Bate...

You still crack me up - and very well said.

" I believe I have failed to convey a point here somewhere.

I think the line is...

"I think we have a failure to communicate" ;)- CHL

Bravo...

Drop a dime on me - I have spent $12,500 already, and haven't even been in court yet - her lawyers are stalling every step of the way - looks like it will be a year before I can get Ruggus Rattus into a new school and away from her... what was it that Shakespear said about laywers???

Vaughn...

"As for 72 virgins, I believe that is just a busy morning in Port Arthur."

HA!... they ain't got no virgins in Port Aurther, they get wore out over by Spindle Top oil fields, by the time they are 11 ;))

John...

"Anyone know how or if you can determine a Mod. 29's age by serial #?"

Yeah - Call S&W, they are good about that stuff.

Ginger...

You still wearin' that thread worn red outfit with the matchin' pumps and purse to the matches?

And I didn't sent you no steenkin' virus' emails - ;))

I get back "rejects" from webmasters for time slots when my computer was off for days :((

I just got an e-mail from 'yote Bate, with his return address, but it wasn't from him.

Dewman...

As to yo' Dumbassed question - the MK4-M3 really NEEDS a flat base.

Sure, there are guys that have gotten away with a 20 moa base, but that's just because of the variables in receiver specs, and their rear bridge was a little low, and they just got in under the wires.

The M3-LR NEEDS a 20moa base (and there are guys that have gotten away with a flat base for the same reasons, because their bridge was a little high).

You gotta remember that the finishing of a rifle receiver is done BY HAND, on a belt sander, so no two M700, or M70, receivers are the same :((

ALL have a bit of built in error from the "Blueprint" spec - sometimes in the right direction and sometimes in the wrong direction - that's why when the M3 scopes are on the "proper" base, they will have some leeway at both ends of travel, and you get the full range centered in the elevation tube.

The M3 series are designed to have a range of about 70 moa total elevation - the MK4-M3 has a unique optical tilt built in... so that when you mount it on a flat base, and zero it at 100 yds (cap OFF), you will have aproxmatly 10 to 15 moa below "0", and 55 t0 60 moa above zero. When you install the cap, you will have the full range of the ballistic cap. The MK4-M3 was designed this way cuz there were NO tapered bases at that time.

But when the M3-LR came into being, the probems started. You can't make a variable scope with a built in optical taper... so when the "LR" scopes came out, guys were complaining that they couldn't gat past 600 to 700 yds in standard bases. All of a sudden (in the late 90's) enterprizing folks began making tapered bases for these puppies.

And that's a fact, Jack ;))

With the MK4-M3, I use the Lupita MK4 one piece flat base for Rem receivers - and they are lower than the Badgers!!!

... for M70 receivers, I use Lupita's two piece "QD "style bases. Very rugged and no hassles either.

With the M3-LR scopes, I use Badger bases.

I have Badger bases, but remember that they are NOT the only game in town.

Not a dumb question - there is a ton of confusion on this subject, and it keeps going around and around.

Ken...

Are you coming up this way to Groton soon - the door is open to you, and the fridge is full. Same goes for some of youz other bumz that are in the CT area.

Pat (HA!)

OK, when you run away from home, you can hole up in my basement - it's almost finished and is it cool...!!!. I got the hidden gun room (you can stand in front of it and see nothing but a brick wall), most of my loading machines are there, and I got a TV and a big Hi-Fi system.

Loadin' don't get more decadent than this.

I gots a bunch of forms from the BATF on my desk... If I can get past the zoning board, I'll probably be in the ammunition manufacturing business this winter... not the same ol' same ol'... stuff you can't get from the other guys :))

True story...

Last week my lady (who LOVES to entertain on our deck), had a bunch over from work (the radio relay league), along with myself, and a friend of mine (David, who is a long time longrange shooter). This twerp from her office says,

"... and my friend is a sniper in Iraq and he was so good in sniper school, that they issued him a .44 mag rifle so he could shoot them farther!"

David and myself just looked at each other with straight faces, and then david said... "That 44 magnum is one hell of a rifle. I was thinking of getting one, but it's way too much gun for me".

I need a nappie!

'lito

No Cats, no Joy!! :((

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 15:43:30 (ZULU)

Major Joe

Welcome home, we are all gratefull for your service, your safe return has been the subject of many prayers. I hope to shake your hand and thank you in person one day.

Mr. Mussack

It sounds like congratulations are in order you should be proud of an accomplishment like that. BTW how is the new rifle workin out you know the one with the jersey cow paint job ;) LOL. Are you planning on attending the fall match at Badlands? I will make it if work permits. Heck I still aint got all the red dirt outa my gear from the last trip to Badlands.

Gentlemen

Do any of you guys use JB Paste, it was recomended by a friend of mine not long ago. I have tried it so far I have used well over 30 patches of the stuff (followed by an oily then a clean patch) and they are still coming out black as coal. Either what I was using before wasnt gettin all the copper out or this sh*t is meltin my barrel. I was told it was plenty safe for my bore but I'm startin to wonder...

If I dont vent this one somewhere I'm gonna blow a gasket!

My kid comes home from high school tuesday and says she has an art project. She wanted to do a paintin of a scene from a Tolkien book the art teacher said no nothing that included violence or weapons. Using typical moronic leftwing logic the teacher says since weapons arent allowed in school then art depicting them wont be allowed. I am wondering if they can draw lions and tigers since ya damn sure not allowed to bring them to class either. By this logic then they cant draw the crucifiction of Christ since it was violent and the romans were armed.They cant draw an American soldier in full battle gear, or a police officer in uniform! I wonder if this leftwing liberal puke ever considered the fact that the only reason smug tree huggin commie b*#@hes like herself sleep safe at night is cuz good men with guns are watchin over them!!!!!! I send my kids to school to get educated not indoctrinated. Sorry about the off thread RANT OFF

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 16:05:28 (ZULU)

Robert...

There are THREE things that will put black on a patch. Powder fouling (comes out easy with your favorite bore cleaner), throat carbon (nearly impossible to remove), and powdered steel.

Jacket fouling comes out either blueish-green with a solvent, or copper colored if taken out with an abrasive.

At this point (after 30 patches of the stuff), you are seeing the insides of your bore coming out on the patch... as Martha Stewart would say (from Club Fed), "And that's NOT a good thing".

I also hear you on the school thing - my Ruggus Rattus is in a snootie school, and the left wing dribble he gets makes me wanna barf. When he was in the early grades (1st through 3rd), he was dying to have me take him shooting - I told him he'd have to wait til he was 10. At 9, his mom moved him to a yuppie town where a cheap fixer-upper house was $600,000 (ouche - that's where my money went :((

When he was 10, I bought him a beautiful Winchester M-310, and he just looked at it with a Ho Hum look. I asked him what was wrong cuz he had always said he wanted to shoot, and he told me, "My teacher taught us that people with guns just kill all the baby animals"... I damn near puked.

Needless to say, we have gotten past that, and he loves to shoot, but there is no midground with these sons (and daughters) of whores. They push their agenda to any captive group they can find, including the young, impressionable students.

'lito

No cats, no Joy :((

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 16:24:09 (ZULU)

Catshooter

Thanks for the input about the cleaning paste, thats kinda what I was startin ta think. Also its good to know that Im not the only one gettin bent about this liberal crap that so called public schools are pushin. When did public education become LIBERAL DEMOCRAT INDOCTRINATION CAMP ?

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 16:59:39 (ZULU)

Litto/Catman, the man who made me a Premiere Reticle fan for life. Damm its great to see you back on here.

Major Joe, glad you are home safe.

Dirty Steve, I tried to take the body back but they claimed to much time had passed and customer mistreatment. Hard to argue with either.

Gooch, you must be a professor. Professor Gooch? I think someone may have a new name.

Bobby, I need to hit you off line. Plan on spring trip, driving out to see George and really want to see your facility on way.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 17:49:42 (ZULU)

Gents,

Joe, WELCOME BACK to the U.S. of A.! Remember, vividly, the times I did the same. Brings new meaning to the phrase "there's no place like home". Enjoy!

Gooch-san: Hmmm, NOT exactly a politically correct quote, but your point is well taken...;-)

Rates up there with the old "when they're off their back they're out of their MOS" (I'm gonna rot in hell for that one!).

Great to see posts again. Nice to see that someones infantile crap doesn't really effect the list in the long run.

Spurrit, if you're still around try sitting down, shutting up, listening, and learning. Although, Bravo may have been closer to the issue when he said the horse came a bit closer than you thought.

Brian, got a package ready to go to "my" lads. How we doin' overall?

Things are getting dicey at OSP. Finding evidence of planning for a major uprising/riot. The CPL that brought in cell phones, knives, tobacco, and god knows what else didn't do us any favors. Our security threat group is on it, as are the State Police. Will keep you informed of the goings on...looks like a powder keg waiting for someone to light the fuse.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:02:51 (ZULU)

You know you have an education problem when your kids social studies book has the 2nd Amendment circle with a Slash though the circle. And it says "Does no apply!"

Catter Man; you know that phrase was the first one I thought of but I decided to stay as diplomatic as I could. Actually that one still does apply. I got one of those e-mails from Gooch yesterday myself.

IF ANYTHING SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT SMALL ANIMALS IT'S A SCAM OF SOME KIND.

IF IT MENTIONS NIGERIA OR ANY OTHER AFRICIAN COUNTRY HIT THE DELETE BUTTON.

IF IT'S FROM ANYONE PROMOTING ANY KIND OF FOREIGN INVESTMENT OR OFFERS YOU ANYTHING THAT'S BETTER THAN YOU THOUGHT SENT A SNIPER!

Brogers
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:18:11 (ZULU)

From my IT department and the anti fraud crew that slaves there.

1. You have not won the lotto and if you did they wouldn't notify by e mail.

2. Your bank or anyone else's will not freeze your account and then ask for confirmation of your numbers. (they already know what your numbers are) No matter how good the logo mimicks the real banks.

3. If it's from anyone in Nigeria wanting to transfer funds through your bank ask them to put it in a plain brown bag and mail it UPS.

4. If it's a cashier's check from an Africian particularly Nigerian bank, it's no good even if your bank takes it and credits your account.

5. "Earnest Money!" is a scam don't send it and don't refund any money that's over paid in excess of $5.00 that's a scam too.

6. If somone offers you more for your car than you are asking run like hell.

7. You Penis is as long as it's going to get.

8. There are no Herbs that will replace Viagra and you can't get the real thing by mail without a prescription. If you do it will be delivered by a DEA chopper.

10. If you get scammed don't think the FBI will help you.

11. If it's from someone who want to invest in your country and has a great list of raw/great products. Forget about it, it's a scam.

12. If it's from someone you know or have known in the past and has an attachment don't open it under any circumstances unless you can confirm that it's absolutely virus free and came from that party.

13th IF someone is fraudently using your credit card. YOU WILL NOT BE NOTIFIED by E-mail. CALL YOUR CARD COMPANY (not using the number on the e-mail).

14 IF you get something by e-mail that sounds ridiculous or ironic go to the urban legends website and search it out before you send it on as gospel.

15 Turn off your notification process that sends notices to all the people who have sent you a virus. 69% of them are not even from that box and your slowing down the net. Don't waste your time.

16. If you want to contact someone you know buy a envelope and q stamp or call long distance if it matters at all.

Brogers
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:41:07 (ZULU)

Jody:

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/colonial/rogers/bio.html

And

http://users.erols.com/candidus/orders.htm

This one is his standing orders for his Rangers . . . .still works today 225 years later.

OH, BTW Spurrit, IF, you haven't noticed . . You've pissed off most on the list, now, if the hair stands up on the back of your neck that means one of um have you in the crosshairs. Ain't no use in runnin' now . . . You'll just die tired.

Good to have you home Joe.

Brian:

Embrasse mon tcheue craquer le poignet???

I'm the resident Cracker on this list!! This boy ain't no Cracker he'd have to be a McSpurrit 'n that ain't gona happen!!

Better go. . . I hear th' boss acommin'

Later,

Jim McNabb outa Clain MackAlpine We been killin' Anglo-Saxons 'n English fer 2000 years!!

Jim McNabb
Arlington , Texas, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:41:39 (ZULU)

Rosterfarians,

The Spurrit has been spirited away.

I sent him a note asking him, in a nice way I thought, to stop pissing and moaning about only wanting to shoot 300 yards and other things. I asked him to cool down since he was not in line with the spirit of what we want the Roster to be.

He told me "F*CK YOU" and some other nasty things about all you nice people. Probably cleaned out some of his stuff before he was spirited away just now.

So, please stop referring to him and all his posts, and let's get back to our normal bitching and fighting :-)

Marius

Marius
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:49:00 (ZULU)

Jim,

You can't see my email address when you click on my name? That's the whole idea! You click on the name of the person you want to send email to and fill in the details. Then you send the email. You still don't know what the email address is you sent that mail to. You'll only know when/if that person then replies.

This is an attempt from my side to curb some of the span we've all been receiving. Hope it is working a little bit at least.

Marius

Marius
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 21:39:38 (ZULU)

WES: Doing well ... 47 platoons. Sinister asked me to send a list of the lessons learned, gear sent and requested, blah, blah to the Infantry school at Benning. Interesting stuff after I put it all together for them. Hope it helps somebody.

CRACKER: Actually ... it was Cajun mon ami ... and I just wished him "well".

(Don't like using the F word ... "french")

Speaking of the F word ... Ever since 9/11 and every time I see or think of the Statue of Liberty ... I can't help but envision her with her arms outstretched at her sides, palms out, looking towards France with this incredulous look and saying WTF ? !!!!!!!!!!

brian k. sain
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 22:26:07 (ZULU)

Joe,

Welcome home!

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 22:33:36 (ZULU)

Marius; good job. Everyone just don't fit in this cracker box castle. Guess I'll just keep on keepin on in spite of the loss. Guess its just the Cowboy in me!

Brogers
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 23:06:21 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Welcome home. Enjoy the weather it has been a true Wisconsin summer so far.

JLU - ZULU out.

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 00:31:37 (ZULU)

Major,

Welcome home sir! We appreciate your service. Thank you. Enjoy your time with your family.

PJC
Upstate, SC, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 00:53:19 (ZULU)

I just came into possession of a Savage .222 from the mid 70s...

The barrel is way light and not bedded, trigger feels like crap and the detachable magazine is clunky to insert / remove.

The glass is Bausch and Lomb, but the scope has no adjustment turrets...the scope mount has a crazy mechanism that allows for height and windage elevation...the mount looks like crap but the optics are absolutely fantastic...very bright and clear.

Has anyone out there redone one of these? I'd love to convert it into an LTR type rifle (med profile barrel / .223). I'd love to hear about any lessons learned.

medicjim
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 02:17:21 (ZULU)

OK, I've been gone for a while but who in the hell is Spurrit, and why is he such an idiot?

Did you say son boy?

Hold hard guys!

Rick Boucher
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 02:57:17 (ZULU)

Hey Snot bro! Welcome back. Spurrit is my new training aid. He is teaching me patience and understanding for the developmentally challenged...

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:17:39 (ZULU)

Hey Snot bro! Welcome back. Spurrit is my new training aid. He is teaching me patience and understanding for the developmentally challenged...

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:17:46 (ZULU)

OOOOPS. SPurrit WAS my training aid.....Shiite!!!

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:24:43 (ZULU)

Dam Gooch, double taping is old timers disease actions! Or has your training aid actually gotten to you that much? :)

Hold Hard! Don't let him out of your sights. Dope it, dial it, and Dump him.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:30:58 (ZULU)

About the reference to female snipers!!!! I resent that quote!!!! I was never a DI!!!

:-)

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:35:24 (ZULU)

Mistah Gooch (or is it now PROFESSOR GOOCH?),

Did you mean to say that you RESEMBLE that remark? ;o) I got nosey and ordered the book this morning.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:48:23 (ZULU)

Gooch the DI. Never did see one of those hats when it didn't have a big prick under it. (Very old joke about a Marine at the beach).

Just met a bunch of female sniper instructors Gooch. They only teach and only teach sniping because they have experience teaching.

Yes, that was correct I think.

Saw a neat little hide site too.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B.
F, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:56:43 (ZULU)

Dam Gooch, I didn't know you went back to Hot Springs. I just spent four days at the village two weeks ago. We could have shared a brew or two.

Next trip if the gods smile on us.

Hold hard!

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:59:02 (ZULU)

Rick!!! No Shiite!!!! Damn dude. That would have been cool as Shiite! Dang it! Hey if your people here ever need anything let me know okay?

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 04:02:50 (ZULU)

Hi Major Joe!

"Thanks so much" seems like such an inadequate expression for all you and your family have done and gone through these last few years since you came to the DR, but From my family to your's, Thanks for all the sacrifices that you all have made for the rest of us. You and your family have been in many prayers and thoughts since you left for Iraq and it's a great relief to everyone that you are back and safe with your family.

Please let us know when you are going to Badlands with Blake. I think that Bobby will have to get ready for quite a crowd when you show up. I know that I would like to be there to say "THANK YOU" in person and shake your hand, if I'm able to.

Take care, Tony Burkes

edited for spelling, duh.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 04:25:32 (ZULU)

Rick; So good to hear from you man. The site has not been the same without your gentle charm. Ugly you may be... but such a charmer upi be. What a week! Ole Spurit sure started a mass exodus back to the promised land. All our children are coming home.

Gooch, I ain't got much memory left but I remember that little remark in question :). BUT I'd never accuse you of being a DI for fear your KABAR might come out! This is good Doc! Man builds the finest houses in all of Persia for years and years. Screw one goat and from then on he's Ahab the goat man! Your buddies will help you get through this Goocher!

Craig has been scanning us again. That was almost a direct cut and paste. Haven't seen or Heard from Mr. C. Roberts in about 3 years when he was down Tulsa way. High Craig if your lookin in again. Come paste something on us.

Jim; is that a 1" tube? Scope wouldn't be a B&L would it? I don't know if that has much potential or not. Some of those old ones were pretty much plumbing.

Mike M.; let us know if we can do anything for you while your laid up. Dang I bet your gettin tired of that stuff.

Bravo; hope this IS the last one.

Brogers
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 05:13:05 (ZULU)

Hey guys--

My wife likes shooting my AR, which has an A2 stock. The only problem is she's about 4' 11" and the stock is too long. I've been thjinking about getting her an AR with a collapsable stock in September. I'm also considering a CZ 527 carbine or Ruuuuu... (you know what I mean) compact rifle, .223 as well. Any opinions what would be better?

I want to stick w/ 223 for now for the light recoil and commonality. Also, in terms of maintenance, a bolt action would be easier for her to learn to maintain. What say the gurus?

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 11:12:44 (ZULU)

Holy Shiite,

Who left the barn door open? I'm seein people I ain't seen in years.

'lito,

Did ya get all them parts ya wanted? Let me know if not.

Bravo and 'lito,

Back in 89 and 90 my divorce went almost 15 months and took 50% of the retained earnings on the corp balance sheet. Luckily no kids were involved. I considered myself lucky at the time.

Marius,

Thank you sir. Good shot.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 11:20:31 (ZULU)

John from Indiana-

Did you just accuse Sain of being a French speaking, Brie eating, wine sipping blue blood al J F'n K? LOL

Joe-

Welcome home, thank you.

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 11:48:07 (ZULU)

Jody, thanks mate.. i am looking for alternatives to the Remington 700, i dunno if i just got bored with em or what, but i'm getting interested in Savages and the Howa, gonna see if i can find one used over here, i wish i had never sold mine. I see weatherby are offering some customisation, aftermarket up grades for thier vanguards, quite interesting. The more i look at savage shooters.com and some of the links on there the more i lean towards owning a savage too.. maybe i got bitten by the gadget bug and like the idea of swapping savage barrels..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 13:36:50 (ZULU)

Greetings all...

Back after 60 days on the road and glad to see this place hasn't changed...Shot lots of PDs, did some outstanding fishing in Idaho, introduced my city raised 10 year old nephew to the joys of camping and shooting in Montana and generally had a real good time just being out and about in the West..Here for two weeks and will try to catch up on the Roster...Then off to Wyo. for six weeks @ elk camp again...

outa here

Markwell
The Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 14:08:27 (ZULU)

Steve B.

Naw, he don't sip nothin!

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 14:25:27 (ZULU)

Speaking of Savage rifles, my partner and I put together the new .308 win rifle (I can't remember the model) with a 26" barrel, a McMillan stock and their new "Accu-trigger". We put a Leuplod Mk 4 M1 LR with the Gen II Premier reticle, 4.5x14x40 on it (with Leupold base and rings...).

We were shooting in the barrel, shoot it..clean it..shoot it..y'all know the drill. In about 25 rounds, we had it shooting a one hole group at 100 yrds. The rifle sells for around $700 so it won't break the bank buying it. We're going to put some padding on the cheek rest to make it a bit more comfortable and raise the eye relief. If you're thinking of Savage rifle, you might look at this one. The barrel is free floated, it has two sling studs for mounting the Harris bi-pod (or what ever you might choose) and a nice recoil pad. It's light so the recoil is a bit more noticeable, (around 10 pounds) but not a problem. Time will tell about durability and the such, but for now, it shoots great.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 14:59:14 (ZULU)

Lito, Long time no see. Guess the lady's cat next doot is all out of kittens.

Robert, Have the tyke draw what every he wants to draw. First Ammendment says we can. Heck the government sponsors some stupid art projects so it must be ok...

Mike, Obviously you didn't get your bod from Mike Dillon.. Haha

Brian, I eat brie but dont speak no French. I recommend you stop using that heathern languge or your dog may run away from home out of shame. Not wanting anyone to think he's owned by a Frog.

That guy that don't post here any more was on the SP site a while back wanting to know how to get started setting up Sniper Contests. I think he came here with a chip on his shoulder..

Dirty Steve,Out

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 15:09:09 (ZULU)

Lito, I now wear a nice Black dress with matching handbag for formal matches. I have a nice Lavender one with a paisley hand bag for practice and local events. I know you didn't send the virus. I just wanted to warn everyone that the pricks were at it again. And my Norton didn't pick it up.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 15:25:38 (ZULU)

Indiansinger, Sounds like a 10FP.. Does it have the cheap black plastic stock? If it does that probably what it is. I have one in 223 that shoots to beat the band. I'm going to be convert it to a 260 Remington soon.

Dirty Steve, Out

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 15:35:56 (ZULU)

Gentlemen

Just got the word I am headed to Vegas very soon, I havent even had time to shoot since I got back from the last project. I am gonna try to get a little trigger time while I am there does anyone know of any good places around there to shoot ?

Bobby Whittington

My trip out west will take me very near your place, I wont have time to stop by on the way out, but on the way back I might take you up on the invite and stop in if your not too busy. It will probably be a few weeks, I'll check with ya when I know for sure.

Curry and Larry schermerhorn are of the opinion that Curry's 7mm STW was was punching through some of your steel targets on the UKD's. I was kinda skeptical, did ya happen to notice a bunch a 7mm holes in your targets?

Robert Adcock
Far East, Texas, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 16:42:25 (ZULU)

Hello, another newbie to the site. Long time lurker, first time poster. I don't have a saddle, buy cheap gear, or guide fat hunters so hopefully I won't need asbestos underwear. ;)

I'm just an Army alumni (in two senses of the word) who is now a trooper on a tac team waiting for a sniper slot to open up.

There seems to be a bunch of characters on this site, so I think I will like it here.

Does this mean I can't buy guns at Walmart anymore? hehe

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 17:11:05 (ZULU)

Thanks to everyone who supplied their information on shooting into and away from the wind. Looks like FIRED data outweighs PDA data once again!

Mike Miller - Ya hit me..I hit back! No mail in my mailbox from you, drop by anytime, but bring yer stick with you!

Tony Burkes- Yep, it would be cool to get the Roster dudes together for a welcome home party for Major Joe...Bet we can handle the people!

Robert Adcock - You know that you are welcome to stop by here anytime you want! Tell them fellers that there wasn't any holes of any calibers in any of the targets, except for the close in one on the SE 80 UKD range. That one got chewed!

Back in the spring, I posted a question about having a Roster get together here at BadLands this fall...Are ya'll up for it? 1K range shooting, 5 or 6 UKD ranges..just waiting on ya'll.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 17:31:11 (ZULU)

Rick/Dad, cant tell you how happy I am to see you back here. Hit me off line and tell me how that new sling buckle is holding up? I am thinking of changing over.

Bill, I'm damm tired of it. I think its just about time to retire and teach full time. I am thinking of getting some property out here so I can get guys like Gooch to come out and teach with me. Probably the only way to get some old friends together. I am thinking of a West Coast school about 120 miles from San Francisco. I would probably run it just one week a month and co teach with some great guys. Only thing certain is it wont be LE and Military only.LOL

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 17:39:19 (ZULU)

Bobby,

Count me in!

Jim T. Welcome.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 18:04:50 (ZULU)

Morgue: 17? Dude, did they serve you breakfast? That's right on your doorstep! Don't trust those complacent, overly lawyered kids on the towers, bro. Keep one in the chamber...

I won't rule out October, just to come watch and shoot---but I think the spring schedule (when published) is the deal for Badlands. I'm going to try a link up with another from here as well as settle in at home first. And who knows what I'll be doing in the new job yet.

Ya'll can imagine the honey-do list from an old farm house after so long, eh? Plus, four kids (3 girlie-types) and one bathroom. I am studying to be a plumber. Looks easy enough. Heheh. Once I get that outta the way, re-indoctrinate the boy after his stay with a liberal mom on the east coast, and play tour guide to the theme parks--then we head to the Badlands...

Yeah, the Log story of the war is one to be written down, for sure. What a charlie foxtrot.

Thanks for the welcome back. Take a look around; for all it's blemishes, America is a damn fine place. I sure missed this soil.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 18:28:05 (ZULU)

JimT: Hey, don't knock wallymart! My wife picks me up paper targets there all the time (well, she had a 15 month break). But they have stopped selling loopies off the shelf....a bit of a backslide. I got me a loopy 6xM8 there a while back, on sale under 200! Hell, that was a deal.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 18:34:42 (ZULU)

Hey Gents,

Any of you have any experience with the Alexander Arms 50 cal Beowolf?

Keep your powder dry

Morgue
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:10:08 (ZULU)

Joe,

I'm not knocking wallymart. It just came up here recently as a certain recently removed person who we're not supposed to talk about was yakking about buying gun stuff on the clearance rack or something like that. I bought my son a Chipmunk at Wallyworld a couple of months ago. I've bought cars faster than that transaction. Saved over 25% though.

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:11:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.

May be up north in a week or so on a M/W project. I'll let ya know as time nears where and when. But if it's within a 100 miles I'm buyin! I'd like to meet Geoff as well and your son.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:53:31 (ZULU)

Morgue; neva heard of it sorry.

Jim; welcome to paradise a little right of center. Did Wally have to send a illegal alien to escort you to the car with that deadly Chipmunk?

Ain't it the shiz. Anyway light down and enjoy the weather.

Mike sounds like a good idea to me. The longer they go out there the more shooting schools are gonna be in demand the way they are making everything so hard to do without Brother interfering. I'd sure hate for the skills of you and those you mention to be lost.

Brogers
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:56:27 (ZULU)

Yote bait,

When I bought PJ's 20 ga. (at wally world) they escorted me to the door and wouldn'y let me carry it. I asked if it mattered that I was packin? He said, are ya? I said always. I walked out in front of him at his request. HA!

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 20:19:41 (ZULU)

On Wally World,

They do indeed have some weird ideas. I often wonder how they can make so doggone much money. My wife happens to be a support manager at the local W/M and can tell some stories that make me wonder about some folks sanity. At least they don't post against concealed carry!

Undude,

Good luck on the surgery.

JimT.,

Welcome aboard.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 21:08:01 (ZULU)

Medicjim...

That mount is called the "Kuharski" mount and it was made by a subcontractor (Kuharski) for Bauch & lomb to sell for their scopes - B&L had the FIRST variable that didn't have the crosshairs get fatter as the power went up, and the FIRST variable that the crosshairs stayed in the center of the scope at all powers... they did it by adjusting the mount.

If you have no interest in this rig, PLEASE put it up on eBay - there are a bunch of old timers that know what it is and would love to restore some old collector's item.

John...

Yup, I gots parts up the Wazzoo. I have installed the spin-on filter adapter, an adjustable oil pressure doohickie, new magneto caps and wires, and today, the little brown UPS faerie dropped off a new electric Holley racing fuel pump and regulator, and fuel pressure gauge - I gots a beautiful new Sensenich 68"x38" wooden prop, and lots of other good junk - it'll take me about a month or 6 weeks to get it all installed. I painted the engine cage with black rustoleum and that worked out fine, but when I painted the two air-rudders with yellow rustoleum... Badd! The damn shit got all wrinkled all over on the second coat :(((

I gotta strip it off and paint them with marine poly paint - $168 a gallon! Gimme a friggin' breako!!!

But it's kewl :)))

'lito

No Cats, No Joy...

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 21:40:38 (ZULU)

....."At least they don't post against concealed carry!".....

Doc, must not be a Super W/M that sells "spirits"! There is a LARGE sign on the front of our Super W/M thst states it is a fourth degree felony to carry ANY concealed weapon on the premisis. But again they sell beer and wine and this is the law in New Mexico, everywhere that sells booze of any kind, even if you are a valid CCW holder...still waiting for mine, one month and counting.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 21:40:58 (ZULU)

John; that's funny as hell! I had a hvy bbl Remington Varminter .220 swift one day carried by a little 5'1 manager that could hardly lift it.

Med Jim; I have the B&L 2X scope that goes in that mount but have always used it to check scope rings for true to see if they would line up. That crosshair is dead center and it shows the rings true alignment.

Brogers
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 22:38:31 (ZULU)

'lito,

Strip 'em to bare metal and use some of that green zinc primer and a Lacquer paint, you'll be good to go. PS, wear a respirator!

John

edit; I just bought a Ruger B'hawk in 30 carbine with the 7.5 " barrel new in box from 1973, for 250 bux! No brass b'strap but still pristine. My lucky day.

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 22:53:41 (ZULU)

It was CAJUN ... dammit. lol

brian k. sain
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 23:29:44 (ZULU)

Stupid neighbors:

Every one has them, I know, but I just wanted to share this. I found it absolutely ponderous. Driving home from Wally World about 20 minutes ago, in a hurricane (I never said I was too bright, sometimes), the wife and I passed one of our neighbors out in her driveway with a bucket, sponge and garden hose washing her minivan. We aren't in the worst of the storm here, but c'mon.

PeteL,

I'm toying with the idea of a Savage for a project as well. I can't get over the idea of how simple they are and how good they shoot for the cash. Ugly as my neighbor's kid, but damn they shoot.

Joe,

Welcome home dammit! Offer of a big steak dinner and plenty of suds still stands when you make it down the Florida way.

'litto,

If the skin of your tail rudders is aluminum, try some Glasurit etching primer first, then Krylon the hell out of it. You will be a little better off with some aircraft paint. I used rattlecans on my rudders, but the Lycoming of mine tends to spray a bit at WOT and the Krylon keeps getting stripped by hot oil.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 23:53:55 (ZULU)

Gabriel;

E-mail sent in regards to Pascagoula range.

Pete L;

How about registering at Savageshooters.com? We need some more fellas from the Old World. Besides, you'll be able to ask questions and even get an inside scoop on the upcoming project. I think you'll be interested.

Jim McNabb;

Thanks for the links.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 00:28:42 (ZULU)

Liberal teachers/schools:

My daughter had to write two book reports, fiction/non-fiction, over the summer break. For the non-fiction she picked GOD, GUNS, & ROCK'N'ROLL, by Nugent.

I expect to see the principal nice and early ; )

Bobby, I have a CMP shoot on Oct. 2nd. If you choose that weekend, Kelly and I will be there, Just a little late ; )

If Joe shows up we'll take him to McBrides, our treat!!!

Daughter just got her braces off, damn... I'll need more shotgun shells ; )

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 03:06:41 (ZULU)

Well I see everything is normal here. Lito looking for cats and BRogers looking for PDs.

Mike the sling has not been three ball bearing tested with students yet but the Israelies were interested. :) Gave them your web site and said DON't mention my name. :)

Joe, hope your time was fruitful and not too challenging. Welcome home.

Hopefully I'll pay more attention to this site this year coming then I have this last year past.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

P.S. 4i's - Read your daughter's graded papers. I ran into a teacher that gave my daughter an F due to the content and not due to grammar. She too wrote on the futility of gun control as preached by the liberals of this world. Unfortunately, her teacher was all about banning ALL guns and stated flat out that the 2d ammendment was wrong. Got that grade changed with a discussion with the principal.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 04:01:16 (ZULU)

Bobby:

I wasn't going to comment on your question of shooting into a direct headwind or tailwind. I thought you were too much of a gentleman to lie like that, as we all KNOW the wind "Where the Harvest Begins" is ALWAYS full value, at 15-30 mph! Then I realized you were joking!

Joe: Welcome home, Sir! It's amazing how you realize how wonderful this country is when you're gone, isn't it? My daughter will be headed to the sandbox in the very near future, she's been told. (88M)

AFTER she goes to Benning, if her leg holds up.

We need a gathering of the clans up in Badlands. All this snivilization is getting to me....

Charles S. Hunt
San Anto, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 04:22:48 (ZULU)

R.Martin,

That's why I told him to use the green zinc and Lacquer, Cessna has been doin it alot longer'n me. :)

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 04:54:48 (ZULU)

I'm up for a Badlands get together, just let it be after May when I get back to the world. I'll bring more than a few jarhead snipers, an SF guy(former jarhead) and a few cop snipers too. I'd post more, but I'm drunk as Hell. Last big party before heading in-country. Some truly outstanding people I'm heading in country with. Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 06:21:07 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Yeah, that's the one. Accurate rifle. Everything else seems cheap but the barrel and reciever must be well made.

Brian,

Just out of curiosity, what was it you told that other fella to kiss anyway? Lived in France 1961 to '63, born at Barksdale AFB, but I can't remember all that parlez vous. :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 06:27:11 (ZULU)

Jody i might just go and do than and register over there, hardlz ever see a savage here in krautland, the krauts won't touch cheap stuff, even if it works well, they would rather pay high for a pile of crap (blaser), anyways, i have gotten quite fascinated with the savage rifles, i figure if i sell my remingtons for a decent price i can buy more savages, but i haven't quite managed to come to terms with parting with the 700's, they are sort of old friends if you know what i mean. I am also definately interested in a howa, but i will have to buy new cos i want a stainless one. Also toying with the idea of converting a remmy 700 to work the same as a savage with regards to the barrel nut, come to think about it i could probably do same with the weatherby/howa. damn ive loads of projects in mind, strapped for cashn due to construction and garden projects, maybe i better ask for some overtime. Anyways future rifles will be definately savages and howas. I have 2 mauser type projects sat in pieces at the moment too.

I also have the chance to go to Namibia for a week in October, hunt and accomodation free of charge as a thankyou for my organisation/logistics and translation activities between the German estate and the Brit sporting agent i help out from time to time. I can't afford the time away realy and i keep thinking how many damn house bricks i could buy for the cost of the damn flight, on the other side of things one should make hay while the sun shines.. To much to do, to little time to do it in and to little cash to do it with.

Been out hunting the last 2 nights, saw a decent buck on first night but couldn't shoot him due to not having a darn back stop, saw nothung at all last night, but then i forgot me bino's..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 07:14:36 (ZULU)

Well I just got back from the funeral of my beat partner. Sad day. Those military/LE funerals always get to me especially when they play the pipes. Now we drive on and start getting back to the daily grind.

At least I got the M1's working on blanks for the rifle salute by our honor guard. They got the barrels plugged with internal blank adaptors and they just didn't work too good. I got them running much better and all went pretty well today. The hoot is they got them from Don McCoy. He's one of the premire M1 builders out here and he sold them for $150 each. Every part in them is a "wornout" match grade part. By the look of some of his "junk" I wish I could go through his trash can.

Steve Burris- Try an A1 stock on you AR it's a little shorter. I like it better for general carry and use anyway. Also several companies make the even shorter "tactical" stocks. The A1 would probably do it though and they run real cheap, only a few bucks and I think I saw some on the Emporium.

Pete L- If we can get vacation in March my SF buddy and I will be there for the show. It's just a matter of getting the time approved....and of course convincing the ladies they don't need to go =) A so/so bud of mine recently got a Weathby Vanguard HB in .223. After a trigger adjustment it shoots great. But I kind of like Savages too...you can tinker on them. I'll get an e-mail to you soon..for now back to eating all this delicoius jerky...

Major Joe- Welcome home bro !!! Now make a pest of youself at all the nuddie bars ;p

Take care all,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Arnoldland, US of A - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 07:21:25 (ZULU)

Injunsinger, I'm told that the floating bolt head design adds accuracy. And I believe the make there own tubes as well. Chuck Hunt has one like your and shoots very well too.

JimT. Welcome. You are quite observant about the types of fellers that hang out here. You know how there is one in every crowd, Well this is a whole crowd of them.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 07:50:23 (ZULU)

Joe i was sorry to hear about your buddy, i hope everything else is A OK your end. mate if you two can get the time off for the IWA we will have a scream.. Tell the boss you want to inspect the technological inovation of the European Firearms Industry with a view to improving your Dept's effectiveness, that should swallow better than saying you are thinking of packing in the job to import Weizen beer into the USA.. and just a tip,, it is usual to import/export beer in beer barrels and not in your stomach !!.. Let the ladies come to Germany and send em shopping of looking at Castles or something. Sorry i haven't been up to speed on the email lately, been busy,, i will rectify the problem. Ref the Vanguard, damn i wish i had held on to my 300 win mag, ( RWS 89= same gun) i sold the sod cos i couldn't get a synthetic stock for it, its what i used to kill the bear in Northern CA. Savages seem to be the technical inovations gadget of late, getting popular with lots of aftermarket goodies, wish i had taken a look at the IWA at the savage stand, i din't bother, bugger !

Wife had her car broken into last night, and as i had used it last week my damn camera was in the glove box, she was daft enough to have hidden her purse under the damn seat, well they found that, so much for secure parking in the town, CCTV not manned at night and it aint recorded either, so why go to the expense of installing the camera?

Its time the Berlin Wall was rebuilt, only 10 feet higher and we chucked all the crap back over it thats come through since it was knocked down.

Think i need to buy a real nasty dog and leave it in the vehicle cammoed up and when some scroat breaks in he gets his balls chewed.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 15:39:26 (ZULU)

Joe, my thoughts and prayers for you and your buddies family and friends.

Rick, Israel's like the sling, yeah but how did the Palestinians like the sling? Tell the Israel's to get ahold of me anytime. I hooked up some of them two years ago. Enemies of my enemy are my friends. Shalom. Funny got a request to purchase from Iran. Still laughing on this end. If we have or should have guns pointed at you no slings for you!

Well making slings as fast as I can so I hope to have a few extras set aside for when I am laid up and cant make them next month.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 18:19:37 (ZULU)

My brother is planning to go Elk hunting in western Oregon sometime in the next year or two. Would a 7mm Mag be adequate and what loading should he use?

medicjim
Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 19:47:44 (ZULU)

Seems like I owe Jim McNabb an apology. He wants to tell me nicely my links to email the staff at the top are not in working order, and I think he wants to see my email! Thanks Jim, that is fixed now.

Good to see some faces, I mean names, on the Roster again. Lately I don't have much time to read unfortunately - anything, not just the Roster. Between real paying work and standardising the whole site in order to easily do a make-over there is not much time for anything else lately. Fortunately work is slowing down a bit to normal speed again.

See you guys around

Marius
Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 20:42:15 (ZULU)

I have not used 7mm Rem on elk, but other I have hunted with have. The 160gn premiums like the X-bullet, Failsafe, Partition, Swift A frame, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, etc are as light as I'd go. Use 175's if you plan on using a normal cup and core bullet. Lots of people have got it done with lighter bullets, but I'm all for erring on the side of too much penetration. Elk can take quite a bit of killing. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 22:03:57 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

The 7 mm should work just fine on elk. I killed my first moose with one, and it only went about 20 yards (if that far). Like Ken said, use good bullets and a 160 grain should be fine. My M70 really likes the Federal Premium with the 160 gr Nosler Partition.

Hit one in the main pump or the major plumbing and it won't go far. I think most game is lost due to poor shot placement rather than inadequate equipment.

Jim

Jim T
Soldotna, AK, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 22:28:49 (ZULU)

JimT:

Jocularity with the walmart there...any-who--so yer in Alaska? God's country; spun around from the copper to the Gulcana over to the Big Su drainage for years. Met my wife up there, combat fishin' sheep creek was our second date. Lucky dawg---we always wanted to come back and stay!

Anniversery last night, Raegan's B-day today. I tried to get the lil one a yute riffle--but wife "shot" that one down. Harhar. 3 is a bit young I suppose.

Can't get around to clearing my range. Wife wants gutters up on the house, and where the water needs to go, the roofline slopes up. Old ass farmhouse! If I put in some down-angle, the thing would be about a foot under the eaves hanging in space. So, to do this, had to drop the spout in the center and run a crazy homemade angle of downspout pipe under the windows to get to the corner where the run-off goes.

I can't wait to try the same thing on the opposite side. jeez.

Still have to clean the garage, string fence, build the bathroom additions, install the new kitchen, other half of the gutters, clean the stalls and I am begining to realize my wife ain't changing another diaper or doing any dishes til Christmas...heheh. But I did out-smart her once already: Connected the pastures around the house and made the yard a pasture. Grass is being cut as we speak.

Time for a cold one...

The whole collection will get a once-over of Hoppes tonight. If we can't shoot 'em, we can sure get 'em ready!

(of all things, it was my boy's idea to scrub 'em down!)

Medicjim:

Hey, what do you know about leischamiasis? I've been steady loosing weight (intentionally, but not this fast), bleed easily, bruises from nuthin, and it all seems a bit odd as I don't normally have these problems. I had some sand flea bites that weren't any bigger than normal--but took forever to heal. A few are still scabbed over a month later...got me thinking it could all be related but I dunno the pathology of the non-cutaneous (and nasty) form.

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 00:36:40 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Here's an interesting paper and presentation done on leishamiasis in 2003 by the Israelis:

http://parasitology-soc.md.huji.ac.il/leishmaniasis.final.htm

Reloading virgin reflections on first week of loading.....

Well, I finally got around to loading my first ammo last week. I have learned many things:

1. Do not get your thumb stuck between a universal decapping die and the ram when you are making good time decapping your brass and happen to look away.

2. Case prep, as was told to me by several folks, is a mind-numbing experience.

3. It is impossible to drop a bullet seating die .002". Skips Shims will now be used.

4. Calipers are your friends until you have to measure OAL of 50 pointy things. Bullet comparitor on the way.

5. It takes half the time and noise to tumble with walnut shells AND polish.

6. No two pieces of once fired brass FL size the same. I have given up on this fact.

7. After you use the set screw to lock down the locking rings, you DO need channel locks to loosen ring and move the die.

8. Digital scales are nice, but a pain in the ass for making up less than 10 loads for testing. Balance beam much faster and don't have to be cleaned out.

9. A Winny HBV must have a tight chamber, else I am screwing up.

10. Loading for a Rem 700 and a Win 70 with the same die settings is tedious for fit.

11. I can now see why uniforming a pocket primer and deburring a flashole are good ideas.

and finally NUMBER 12.....

12. Do not cram a bullet in a sized case and shove it into a chamber to check for AOL. Bullets do get stuck.

I am going to write a loading for dummies book next year. By then I will have made every mistake known to the reloading world.

Frustrated but finally glad to be rolling my own....Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 01:11:07 (ZULU)

Joe M - I'm not all that good at parasites...especially those that are not common in the US.

The visceral (bad) form of leischamiasis appears to cause persistant fever, swelling of the spleen (just tucked under your left lower ribs, you can check yourself) and liver problems. It is fatal if untreated.

If you suspect any sort of parasite, a trip to the doc pronto is in order... I doubt you've got leischamiasis but loss of weight and slow clotting are not syptoms to ignore. A blood test can tell a whole lot.

FYI - Stress can cause both or your major symptoms. You might want to try a multi-vitamin (or Total brand cereal for breakfast) to get your immune system back up to 100%...combat environments kick the crap out of it.

Sorry I couldn't help more...

Thanks everyone on the elk loading advice.

medicjim
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 02:16:22 (ZULU)

John and Robert M...

I already bought the pricy stuff... it's Pettit's 'poxie.

I have had very very good experence with this family of paints, and since it was special order, it's what I'm using. But the stuff is bullet proof, and I'll never have to do it again...

Rob...

Is your Lycoming in a plane or a boat... if it's a plane, eh!... if it's a boat, whatcha gots.

Rickster...

Glad your back too - now me and 'yote Bate won't feel like the only fossels around here ;)))

'lito

No Cats, no joy!!

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 02:32:29 (ZULU)

Joe;' do you take aspirin every day?

I'm so old I need to start diggin a hole Cat man. If I'd knowed it was gonna be like this, I'da been a lot more careless in my younger days. Doc ain'nt that right? Doc's jus a spring chicken but he'd know the truth.

Ken you watch your six if you goin in the crazy country. It be bad over there at times.

Brogers
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 03:12:12 (ZULU)

Bolt re: reloading

The Lee Precision lock rings with the rubber O-ring are superior to the pure metal ones, IMHO. You can purchase them to retrofit other dies. The rubber O-ring on the underside take the backlash out of the thread the easy way. Just mark an index point on the die relative to the press and you can return to the same rotational position after removal without using tools.

Another neat trick is the Redding neck carbide expander. Eliminates need to inside lube case necks, and reduces case stretching on resizing because the expander passes thru the neck *much* easier. Nice system if you don't want to use the expander-less system for neck resizing that requires selected outside neck sizer matched to case-neck wall thickness (to produce just the right inside neck diameter).

Bart Bobbit recommends brushing residue from inside case necks (bore brush chucked into a cordless drill is a quick way). Consistent neck tension/bullet release is one of the more subtle elements of consistent velocity, which will in turn affect long-range accuracy.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 04:38:47 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Roger on 'yote-Baits aspirin question. I've been on an aspirin a day for the last three years due to lousy plumbing. Last time I saw my local M.D. I asked her about the bruises. She confirmed the fact that aspirin therapy is one possibility and another is eating a lot of fresh fruit. The aspirin also thins the blood and slows clotting. I do heal slower than I used to; but I'm 67! ;o( If I ever get my hands on the idiot that coined the phrase about "The Golden Years", he's in serious trouble.

yote-Bait,

If I had been any more careless in my younger days I probably wouldn't be writing this! Sure was fun. Too bad I didn't start much much earlier.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 05:29:45 (ZULU)

Not bieng one for spectator sports i usualy don't pay much attention to sport on the TV..

But have you guys seen the womens beach volley ball?? cor blimey!!!

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 15:08:08 (ZULU)

Hey gang,

Have a look at the new look ... www.adoptasniper.org

Hit the forum link ...

Pretty snazzy ... thanks to Thomas at SP and Ken Good (SEAL) of Strategos Int'l.

brian k. sain
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 15:47:34 (ZULU)

Catman what you shooting these days

Mike Miller
CA, - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 18:59:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Could we stop the posts about getting older? It's hittin' close to home! At 53 I have found that what are members are saying is true...aging is NOT for the faint of heart. Still, it's kinda nice not to be led around by your XXXXXX all the time.

Have not been able to connect with my guys in Iraq for a little while. Makes me nervous. Guess we've been spoiled by internet connectivity.

Shooting with a couple buds next Friday. Looking forward to it. Hope we get enough guys were we can work movers at 200-600.

Wimmen's volleyball. Amazon's. Sorry Pete, but most are probably lesbians. (Here comes Brian with his honey, again)!

Headed for duty. More later...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 19:44:30 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I forgot to mention that I'm NOT shedding any weight!

brian,

Damned fine website. Keep up the good work.

Jim Mcnabb,

Yep. You've got to be tough to get old. Doesn't hurt if you're just a mite ornery as well. ;o) Hope the surgery goes well.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 19:44:48 (ZULU)

Mike - Don't know how the Palistinians liked the sling. :)

Ken M - Stay safe and drop a couple for me.

'lito - You should know I'm not an old fossil. Just ugly and cantankerous. Of course some are complaining about being 53, dam youngsters. :)

Bolt - another reloading tip, stay focused on the task of removing your finger after setting a bullet on top of the case, seating is hampered by the sudden jerk of the finger away for the pressure created when you lower the die.... OW!

Joe - See a doctor anytime that you bruise without real cause AND lose weight without real cause, or more weight then you should. While stress can cause this so can too many bad things.

Doc and other oldies - remember that "youth is wasted on the young." I would love to live my 20s over again knowing what I know now. Hell I would take my 30s and 40s as well!

Well get a new batch of students in tomorrow. My how time flies when you are busier then a duck stomping our forest fires. Which, of course explains why duck have webbed feet.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 00:58:35 (ZULU)

Rick......

Warning came a little late. Learned that lesson tonight.

ON getting older......

I'll turn 50 on 9/2. I don't regret the abuse that I gave to this old body cause I had a good time doing it. I still abuse it but dang it takes a long time to get over it. If I only had a bigger more powerful tiller I wouldn't feel like a mule. I've been told that I am supposed to have a mid-life crisis or sumpin. I wish somebody would tell me what it is so I'll know when it happens. The only thing happening now is that I get pissed off much easier, and loose patience with stupid people quicker.

Pete.....

Some nice tight booties on them volley ball gals. Don't make no difference to me if they're lesbos, heck by definition I'm one too!!!!!!

Rod.....

I also saw some side screw locking rings in a catalog today. That has to be better than buggering up the threads on the dies.

Back to canning maters....Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 02:04:39 (ZULU)

Ok all this talk of lesbo's has me hot and bothered. So here is a joke.

A Old dusty cowboy walks in to an upscale bar and sits down and proceeds to order three fingers of whiskey in a tall glass. The old cowboy sits contented at the bar siping on the drink when a very lovely gal walks in and sits beside him. She says, "are you a real cowboy?" He replies well I ride horses daily tending cattle, mending fences and rope and brand every spring, so yeah I'm a real cowboy. She replies, Well I'm a lesbian. I sleep in late take long luxoriuos buble baths with other beatiful women and have a lot of oral sex with them. The cowboy then continues sipping his drink when another good looking gal come in and sits on the other side of him and gives him a good looking over. She then asks, "Mister, are you a real cowboy?" He said well I used to think so but I just found out I'm a lesbian!"

Pardon me ifn you all heard it before.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 03:19:29 (ZULU)

Some of them gals could throw me over their shoulder and spank me like the bad boy I am ...

Ken Good (SEAL / Started the Surefire Institute) made that website rock for us ... free of charge.

Good dude ...

brian k. sain
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 03:58:15 (ZULU)

Hey Hogs (and those wee little Piggys),

Has anyone heard anything about a Carlos Hathcock Memorial shoot next month, around the 15th, in or around the Meridian, MS area?

I have a shooter buddy in the MS Bureau of Narcotics that has told me that they have been invited and to expect worldwide talent to attend. I have not found anything anywhere about this shoot. Any info. will be appreciated.

no wind guys,

John

John in AL
LA, Lower Alabama, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 04:21:47 (ZULU)

Die set screws- trying dropping a piece of birdshot (# 5 or 6) under the set screw. Keeps the treads from being buggered up.

'Lito-good to see your posts again. Think you're finding out why most of the rednecks airboats use GM 350's.

Joe M-belated welcome home.

WR Moore
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 06:45:33 (ZULU)

The sniper match is at Camp Shelby and is for military and police only. DOnt know the POC.

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 09:01:08 (ZULU)

Gents,

MedicJim, Let me know when you're going to be in western Oregon for Rooseveldt Elk season. Perhaps we can get together. My work schedule means I have to hunt second season on Thursday/Friday. Why they split the season like this I don't know.

Your 7MM Rem Mag should be just fine. Use a 175 gr. premium bullet. As noted elk can be tough critters. Personally, I like the .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. I can get a 250 grainer going 2,600 FPS out of mine (23" Kreiger 1:12 twist). I can shoot up to 300 grainers if I want. Probably would want to put wheels and a lanyard on it at that point...

Weather: I've hunted the coast range since I was a youngster. Some of the most rugged hunting you'll find. Come prepared for nasty WET weather. Every so often we get a season without heavy rain, but it's a crap shoot. Brushy in most areas, but the possibility of a long shot exhists. Longest shot I've ever taken was 125 yards. Most under 50 yards. So, you don't need a super flat/fast magnum. The 7MM Rem, 300 Winch, and .338 Winch are all popular elk rounds. Personally, I'm not a big fan of belted mags.

Will use 250's in my Whelan or my .284 Winchester(with premium 175's).

Enjoy our Pacific Northwest hospitality. The Rooseveldt Elk is a regal animal and a fine trophy. Tasty eatin, too.!

Last year there were a number of bulls taken in the area I grew up in and hunted as a young lad. One a monster 5 X 6.

Good luck and good hunting.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 09:49:26 (ZULU)

"...no slings for you!"

Mike,

Guess that makes you the sling nazi:o)

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 13:40:49 (ZULU)

Rick B. " My how time flies when you are busier then a duck stomping our forest fires. Which, of course explains why duck have webbed feet."

Which begs the question . . . Why do Elephants have flat feet??

Stomping out burnin' ducks!!

Jim McNabb

runnin' duckin' n' dodgin'

Jim McNabb
Arlington, Texas, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 14:02:19 (ZULU)

Guys, I have searched the archives on this one and could not find a lot of info. I am looking for opinions on suppressors for a .308. I've researched AWC, gemtech, jet and a couple of others, but would like the opinions of those on the board who have experience. Seems an eccentric friend with a lot of land and exotic pets is having a coyote problem that I told him I would enjoy trying to remedy. Problem is, his daughter and granddaughter live on the land (2500 acres) and don't like the "loud noises" as it is getting dark. Now I know that a .308 is a bit of overkill for this type of shooting, but you gotta go with what you got. Plus, to me, overkill is an oxymoron. Anyway, I was being sarcastic with him the otherday and told him that if he bought me a suppressor for my rifle, his daughter would be happy and I could continue to shoot there. Well, he offered to pay for half of it plus my $200 extortion tax which was good enough for me. Always wanted one anyway. Is it worth jumping through all the hoops to get one? And what is recommended? Thanks in advance for the help.

Matt K.
chattanooga, TN, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 15:29:49 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs....

Been gone for several days an just catching up on the DR.

Glad to see you made it back Joe!!!! Take sometime to enjoy the family an ease back into things.

Rick B.

Good to see you an the Catman back an posting again!! Have missed your words of wisdom.

Catman..

Thanks for the invite, you know you always have a bed out this way too. When are you coming out this way again??

Bobby W..

I have got back into drag racing again an a friend has a "Weather Station" an it converts the weather data an altitude your at to what they call corrected dinsity altitude. What that is is even though your at maybe 1400ft the car thinks its running at 5000ft elevation because of the air quality an runs like crap.

I would have to go back through my data but I have found the same problem as your talking about. I can go out an shoot one day an be dead on with my dials an the next day be a full MOA or more off. I have been wondering if the whole key to this delima is that maybe the bullets also think they are at a higher altitude therefor they fly better because of the "Corrected density altitude". Then the next time your out the air is "Heavier" an they fly slower. This time of year we get so many fronts moving in an out of the mid west its hard to keep track.

I don't know enough about this weather stuff to really say for sure but its an interesting theory and then I may be way off base wit it too.

Pat
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 15:31:44 (ZULU)

Pat - weather stuff and shooting:

The Kestrel 4000 computes/displays Density Altitude. From the studying that I have done - it appears to be pretty close to that 'single factor' - one that you can dope to and not worry about altitude, humidity, barometric pressure, air temperature, etc (the instrument considers all of these for you) You of course can't ignore actual tempurature of your gun, ammo, etc.

I brought this up awhile back and didnt get much mileage out of it.

I think it's a good idea to use density altitude for doping. Only gochya is - you need some kind of gadget to generate the value -unless Bruce Robinson & Lou Schwebert (hint hint) can invent a slide rule for us :)

You old or more knowlegeable salts chime in on this one....

Semper Fi,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 17:35:29 (ZULU)

For all you youngsters, under 70 year’s young, I have a question for you. Especially those of you that are in your sixties. Son, what do you plan to do with your life? :-)

HDR
OK, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 17:56:59 (ZULU)

Look at what de Catman dragged in...We're almost running on 7 cylinders again!!! Glad to see youse ol' gorillas back from the midst..

Lesbo volleyball slappers eh...if so, the winners should be thrown in a tub full of baked beans and left to their own devices, that'd do it for me...

'Lito,

How can the layman(me) tell if a reticle has 'tipped'(if that can happen that is)? What was once an absolutely clear sight picture now looks like what would be hard to notice, but noticeable enough for me, a very slight crescent moon at the top, and all of a sudden on same detail/day you just could not wind enough elevation down..hasn't been shot since, wondered if you can use the boresight grid to troubleshoot..Don't think that reticle was placed right to begin with, figure the guy who aligned it is shaped like a question mark and nicknamed 'walleye', definitely canted, but it seemed to track ok, which confuses me...

Joe from Dago,

If you're going to make the journey to the Vaterland this March, bring an extra liver, comes in handy..It's a helluva good time..

Pete,

First thing we need to locate for the next IWA trip is a potpourri suppository for the Welshman...Rotten bastad, I figure he's hidin critters up there, and has misplaced one or two...got a website for you to check out for machinery, bunch of stuff the colleges are getting rid of...

later

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 18:00:10 (ZULU)

Maj Joe,welcome back and thank you for your service.

Did your family enjoy the pictures that we sent of the tropical flowers? (I assume you and the boys enjoyed the Miss tropicana pics)

Been offline for a few months but it is nice to see everyone is in good spirits(well most everyone)

Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 18:55:43 (ZULU)

UnDudeski...

"Catman what you shooting these days"..

I'd tell you what I'd LIKE to shoot, but that's against the law ;))

But I been shootin' Nada! :((

I have been so busy with this move I haven't shot a gun this year :(((

I'm gonna try to get a gun ready for the Joisey shoot this fall, but right now, everything is in boxes or piles.

Rickster...

"'lito - You should know I'm not an old fossil."

Lies, lies, and more lies... ;)

"... Just ugly and cantankerous."

True, true, all true ;))

Boltster...

the Lee rings are ok if you don't change dies... but if you change dies, you have to re-invent the whele each time - they don't hold the setting, and marking them with a pen gets real old. Use the rings with a set screw, and put a lead shot in the hole (like WM said), and it won't mark the die threads. You don't want to make up a batch of ammo, and find that the bullet seating is off cus the ring wasn't in the right place.

Turning 50??? HA!, double HA!! yo' is still a young whipper snapper ;)))

Ginger...

I heard that one before, but it's still worth a replay.

WM...

" Think you're finding out why most of the rednecks airboats use GM 350's"

Well... it's like this - I have wanted an Everglades airboat for since about forever. And in my fosselized brain, airboat means airplane engine, (I don' need no steenkin' car motor in my airboat ;)

When I first priced a new boat back in '80, the quote for one with an airplain engine damn near made me fall off the chair.. the engine alone (yellow tagged-good-USED) was around $16,000... then add the boat and other poo-poo.

This spring, I lucked onto a primo "AirGator 15", with a Lycoming 0-320 engine that had been sitting in a tool shed for nearly 10 years. The owner had been in very poor health, and had stored it at his daughter's farm. He passed on, and she wanted it "out of there"

I picked it up, with a custom trailer, for less than the trailer was worth - so in spite of the ~$1,000 in parts and upgrades I have spent, I still have about $2,000 (TOTAL) in this boat. So I'm in this thing fer nuthin' :)).

It looked like shit on the outside when I picked it up, but the engine was new when the boat was bought, and has about 80 to 100 hours on it. At this point, it's looking pretty good, and I have all the stuff I need to finish it - except time :((.

It should be in the water in 6 or 8 weeks if nothing else comes up on the "Gotta do" list.

The thing I love about the airplane engines is that they are so over engineered for reliability, and have so much redundancy - they will bring you home, when the GM 350s will leave you out in the weeds.

Youz guys give them ducks a break - Ducks were God's first attempt at designing a bird ;))

Pat...

I would like to get out that way next year - if this godamn law suit gets finished - my son is gettin "Blood thirsty", and might enjoy it.

On the air density thing - I posted a bunch of stuff here about 1-1/2 or 2 years about it (Search "baro"). The bullet thinks it's at the altitude of the air pressure - forget humidity - it's meaningless, and forget the true altitude you are shooting at - only correct for the air density if you are using a ballistic program, cuz if you are shooting at 3000 feet ASL (above sea level), but the weather front has rolled in and the baro is "UP" by two inchs over normal, you are actually shooting at 2000 feet lower than you are, so youy would be using the data for 1000 ASL - but if you dump all that ASL poo-poo, and just run your data for baro using "0" ASL for the normal, then you just adjust for the pressure, and don't worry where you are, or how high or low you are.

Ken...

I gotta new call - K2BK - and we got a small rig and forty meter wire up. I'll move the big station up when we get the wiring in for the 6 Kilowatt amp :))

JR...

"How can the layman (me) tell if a reticle has 'tipped'(if that can happen that is)?"

Yes that can happen, though it happens when the reticle is installed, not later.

The true reference for elevation and windage are the spindle faces of the adjustments in the scope. these faces are what determines what is straight "Up and sideways"

For long range scopes, the crosshairs MUST be parallel to the spindle faces - if they are not, then all the fussing you do, can't make the riffle shoot predictably at long range. The worst problem about non-square reticles is that the errors look like bad wind calls, or cant - and it never goes away, and you can never get right - leading to a lot of frustration for new LR shooters.

To check a reticle for squarness to the spindle faces, do this.

Get a roll (or piece) of paper, so you can make a target that it 50" or more high... it only needs to be 20" or so wide.

Make a plumb line of black 550 cord with a 1 ounce fishing weight on the end - the line should be 60" or longer.

Then get a pack of those 1" stickie dot lables (black) at the stationary store, and a thumb tack, and a tape measure.

Now... go to the range and put the paper target up on the target board at 100 yds, so it is vertical.

Now tack the plumb line to the top of the frame, so it hangs from the top of the frame and runs down the middle of the paper, and it can swing freely over the paper.

Now, put a stickie dot at the botton of the target so it under the 550 cord, and the cord goes through the center of the dot.

Measure up 42", and put another dot under the cord. When you have finished putting on the dots, they MUST be 42" (center to center) apart, and the cord must go through the middle of both dots.

Now remove the plumb line and put it away.

Set your sights for your 100 zero, and shoot 5 shots in the LOWER dot. then crank in 40 moa of elevation, and... (pay attention here), AIM at the lower dot, and make sure that the vertical crosshair wire is in the middle of BOTH black dots, and shoot five more while aiming at the lower dot, and the wire bisects both dots - the rounds will hit the top dot.

If the second group hits the middle of the upper dot, your wires are true and parallel to the spindles and the scope is a keeper - but if the group is off to one side, you have a tilted reticle, and there is doodley-squat that you can do about it. This error is called "elevation tracking error", and means as you crank in elevation for longer ranges, you are also cranking an increasing windage error that you can't see.

The only way to compensate for this problm is to use a bubble level that is deliberatly off-set to side by the same amount as the error - a pain in the ass to set up, but usable.

And most scope makers can't fix this (they won't know what you are talking about!!!).

It's good to be able to have some time to get back here for a while...

'lito

No Cats, no Joy.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 19:37:08 (ZULU)

Joe M

Good to hear you're back and doing home type things. We have a staff epidemiologist here and I'll try getting her to answer a few questions for me about the sand box. She's quite involved with a number of things over there anyway.

My son just got back State-side last Monday (09 Aug 2004), he's in route to Fort Lewis to the little ADA group up there. We were talking about his Iraq tour yesterday and he wanted to say thanks to all the folks that sent things and especially to Major Joe for the SPEAR gear. He had a few "parts and pieces" experiences and a couple prisoner escort ops but nothing that caused him any harm or damage. He sure views the world in a different light, not the "womb safe" place he thought it was.

Greeting to all the rest of the regular hogs too.

I've been busy getting skinny and fat, then skinny, training for a shoot and a high(er) altitude (12,000 ASL) Colorado backpack elk hunt in October. I shot my first "F" Class match in NC a short while back, used the 308 from G-A and fired in the F/TR (Target Rifle) class. Did well (got lucky once again) two (2) first place matches (600 and 1000), one (1) second place (again at 600) and 8 of 13 at 1000 shooting the 168's, (overall I was second place ) I really enjoyed the time and learned a lot (two series each at 600 and 1000, four total matches plus an aggragate).

I just got a 375 H&H Long Range shooter setup, from George at G-A. Shoots about .75MOA with thrown together loads, 6 to 7 MOA for 400 yard come-ups (M3LR scope).

Take care all.

v/r

Dave "Doc" King
Maryland, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 19:49:58 (ZULU)

Matt K; Here is a man that can tell you what you need to know.

http://www.norcalprecision.com/ Ask Jerry Rice. but....

Check Legality of what your doing first in you state however.

You can slow load a .308 with 110grain a max bullets if the distances are not too far. Using something like pistol powder and reduced loads with a little research. If you want quiet you need to stay below the speed of sound. (1100 fps) or there abouts. Or put your suppressor on a .44 magnum loaded with .44 specials in a rifle barrel.

Brogers
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 19:56:41 (ZULU)

Ken & Catman..

I agree 100% with that an have looked at the Kesterl which is suppose to give the adjusted DA. I am convinced that that is the answer to why we shoot a full MOA off on different days.

If you recorded that data an had the tables for the different altitudes I believe you could make a lot more fist round hits on any given day by simply comparing the DA and dialing for that.

I have been out an shot on 3 days in a row where the temp has been the same, wind the same direction, an on the last day or maybe the fist day have my dials be a full MOA off. It used to drive me crazy but then I recalled on one of those days a front building up in the north an it was raining about 10 miles off. So when I thought back about it, I would bet the DA was way different from when I shot the other two days with the same temps an wind conditions.

I have the computer game on long range shooting an it has the different elevations to shoot at an it really makes a difference once you get past 600yds, so it makes sence the bullet would act the same way in real life. Thanks for the imput!!!!!

Pat
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 20:34:17 (ZULU)

I always wondered about ducks and God...Now when Noah filled the boat 2x2 did the ducks really care if they had a seat?

Lito,

Thanks eh, should have the necessary range and plumb line to do a good test...should be a good nice and calm Saturday test while the others are at the Lancs shoot...Good to have you back, you really boil the simple down for my simpleton self, much appreciated...you'd think I'd know circles and squares by now...

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 20:40:00 (ZULU)

Brian,

Nice forum. Of course now I will be spending even MORE time online instead of shooting. ;)

You are doing a good thing with this program.

To everyone else,

I would urge you to use the link on Brian's site to make a monthly donation. I figured that it would save the shipping costs and perhaps some of the more skookum gear could be purchased. Especially now since it appears for the present the boys are being allowed to send Al Sadr's boys to meet their virgins.

Jim

Jim T
Soldotna, AK, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 20:58:45 (ZULU)

'Lito- I've always wanted an airboat too, but they're illegal here in Virginny. For 2K I'd a bought it too!

WR Moore
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 22:06:05 (ZULU)

Brian,

send me your address again. I got some issue marine corp camo for ya.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 22:10:25 (ZULU)

Yote: Yeah---asprin every day---little yellow coated pills. Bad plumbing runs in the family--and I am still "getting back in shape" pushing for 6 min. miles (3 each). Wife thinks that is hard on a 40 year old heart, especially one that was as outta shape as I was coming outta recruiting hell. Heheh---at least I always "maxed" the push-ups and sit-ups---I'd hate to be fighting that battle too.

In Iraq I realized that the only fun left is in the SOCOM world---the rest of the army lacks appeal anymore. Ruined! I don't see switching over right now (family)--but ya never know what tomorrow may bring:

So I am kicking my own ass getting in shape anyways. If another opportunity like the last one comes...

My local infantry battalion just activated and went to MS; wife said, "don't even think about THAT just yet..." Oh well, if I go again, it's the 'stan I'd want anyway...

I am doing a 500 yard test on group size starting this week. I'm curious about the effect of slower pulse/ leaner body mass on my shooting: Yeah, it has been done ad-infintum, but not by me for me. I have a log book ready to go (army tape test, resting pulse, miles ran for the week, plus the weather etc) and will use prone w/sand bags (SPR, FGM 168s). If something profound happens, I'll post the results.

On deploying to Iraq:

Attitude cannot be discounted. You will see convoys moving all over with gunners so crouched down that the gun looks unmanned; and they get hit routinely. You'll see others with gunners running traffic off, swiveling their heads like tops, generally looking ready for anything. These guys bitch about the lack of contact. There is a reason.

You'll hear all kinds of mods to the ROE; it will confuse you at times. Bottom line, always look at the "self defense" clause, the conditions for engaeing, and boil it down to the brass tacks. If you hear a request to fire on the net "we have 3 guys with AKs and what may be an RPG"--you have some clarity problems with ROE. Blame the lawyers, but fix it. You should get a contact report for that, as in " engaged three targets with..." But with every mandatory reading of these frikken rules, you'll have more and more confused troopers. Do not let that stand. Review the bidding, and simplify it for your troops. They need to shoot without asking at times, and the ROE makes it hard for some to figure out when that is. You can make it as few as 3 sentences (instead of 3 pages where it was when I left).

Don't think roadside bombs will be obvious; trash, guard rails and abandonded cars are everywhere---to check them all is not possible. Change lanes, vary speeds wildly, and NEVER let anyone pass you from behind. Front and rear gunners must have their shit together, nothing crosses the highway to your front and nothing gets inside of 50 meters to the rear without shots being fired through a radiator. No such thing as too many weapons. The fifty is for killing, a 16 varient is for warning off dumbasses. Most will naturally drive behind you---it is like a wave of cars with an invisible barrier holding them back matching your speeds. The dumbasses and bad guys will stand out as they charge in. No doubt when the time comes to shoot. Will your gunner shoot?

The gunner has the best view--but NOBODY is along for the ride. All heads on a swivel. The limited view out o up armors is still better than nuthin' if it is used and used always. It gets boring, but stay on 'em.

Get an RPG (EODT or their replacement contractor has dummy rounds). Use it in training, present it every weird way imaginable mixed in with farm implements. Make your boys see the difference immediately. Better to shoot these things while still in the launcher...and target ID is paramount. You'd be surprised how some of our kids just stare at a launcher end-on when it counted.

Bad guys hit weakness. Hide strength if you want to play, or act strong when you don't. You are being watched everywhere.

Obvious: Don't get complacent. You will, but try to recognize it when it happens. I knew I was when I responded to an infil in shorts with a pistol jammed in my belt and two '16 mags on a leg extender. Morgue---you stayed in bed, so yer guilty too. It happens, but know when it does and assess the risk.

Read INSUMs, sitreps and the SIRs daily if you are a SL or above. Plot it in yer AO and know the pattern yourself. Use this info to plan and survive.

A crash axe scares the mob-vultures away. Armed orderly soldiers may not. If rescuing a disabled crew, act mad as hell (you won't be acting)--and seize the situation with small amounts of applied violance. Knock any doubters on their ass, have a wingman ready to drill anyone objecting to being shoved away. Speed counts.

Yeah, speed counts. Floor it.

Battle drills for hummers: Driver down is bad. Don't think about getting out, or pulling him clear of that compartmet while under fire. Gunner drops right in on driver's lap and gets control (moving--right now), right rear becomes gunner. TC never moves, if TC gets hit, keep going--and don't stop if at all possible. Repeat if necessary with left rear passenger. Always have at least a four man crew in a gunship (5 is better). Plan recovery before you go. Left rear guy is the hook up man. Oh, always pre-rig towing shit. Cables, bars whatever. Mount it up. Push the vehicle in front, pull the rear. Use three ship minimum, one covers the other to recover the third. A 240 is preferred to a fifty on at least 1 ship. Faster, steadier in a near contact.

Rehearse this at speed until it is second nature, and rehearse everything else the same.

Always test fire. 50s especially, each day, it should be a part of the PCI. I saw too many 50s that would NOT fire when needed out on the road over there. That was depressing. Remeber that bunch we saw, Morgue?

Your day ends AFTER all weapons are cleaned. The mission begins after they are dusted off AND tested...bring dry lubes and PLENTY of cleaning supplies (PTFE crap works pretty good).

Reflex sites rock. Do not buy a cheapo, nor cheapo mounts. GG&G or ARMs work very well. The crap that comes with aimpoints does not; it will loose zero after a week or two of getting in and out of vehicles.

A sawed off shotgun in the vehicle is good. Plenty around over there. If ya have to get out of a burning hummer with bad guys closing in, 5 rounds of buck as you wait on the rescue will buy you time to clear. A ammo can full of frags in easy reach is also great. Tie it down so it can be reached by all without trippin' the gunner. Smoke taped to each seat, thermite on comms. Keep the frags separate from the rest though. Heheh.

Get some blackhawk-style three pouch (two mag per type for "flush" mounting for in/ out of the turrets and general mobility and laying lower when needed):>) ammo pouches (molle pouches work) Build the armor vest into your LBE. I had mine set sideways, opening to the left. Very fast and easy. If you can get a SPEAR vest, do so. Neck protectors are a dubious addition. Unit SOP will drive it, but I ditched mine and had much better mobility as a result. Get a MITCH helmet as fast as you can. RFI is on Doha, and they also have forward sites in Iraq. Hell, get it all (danner boots and cool stuff galore), but make a point of it ASAP on arrival. That helmet will be a huge benefit in morale, protection, internal comms use, and weight on the noggin.

Re-zero at any opportunity. Make your own opportunity.

Entering/ departing controlled areas or FOBs is often where it happens. Don't focus on the objective when travelling---focus on getting there.

plenty more if anyone wants to ask. email me...

baby just crawled in my lap....

you get a break

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 01:30:07 (ZULU)

One more:

The way things are working over there: Everything you need or want is a "favor." Barter is in effect; we've gone native on the market-style way of life. Bring extra 9mm if ya got it, and trade for anything. Heheh, I got an ac unit for a hummer for a blast blanket. It might frustrate ya, but I got used to it. It was fun after a while, although not the "way it is supposed to be." Not by a long shot.

On the Rapid fielding initiative: If ya get there and can't get it---email me off this site. I will direct ya to the right people by name.

Doc: Glad to hear your boy is back and safe! It was my absolute honor to send stuff to your son. That was one of a few "personal" care packages.

One other (expected) malady: coughing up all kinds of mud. That dust was deep in the ol' lungs. This rain and humidity is digging it out though.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 01:55:21 (ZULU)

Joe,

You are a real blessing. I hope those in need take heed.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 02:44:22 (ZULU)

Sniper Match;

The match at Camp Shelby,MS is, as Gooch said, for LE/Mil only. Camp Shelby is near Hattiesburg, a bit south of Meridian.

I know some fellas who shot it last time. Send me an e-mail and I'll try to get some info. For some reason I think they might have two matches a year.

If nothing else, contact Public Affairs at the Camp Shelby website.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 03:02:25 (ZULU)

Pat and Ken - The gadget you are looking for is a PDA with a ballistic program made special for it. Exbal is one and I have worked with it. I have worked with the Horrid (Opps Horus) Vision one and I am working with one that is under construction with a guy by the name of Blaine Fields. So far his if the one that seems to be working out very well as he is now developing it and is adding everything that I like, and another guy that is a hunter up north. One example is the BDC problem. His program will give you a corrected BDC factor. As an example, his program will say, for 600 today you need to use 6 + 1. Nice stuff. And yes Pat, the day to day noise of the enviornment can cause a problem at longer ranges as well as closer ones under some conditions. A side thingy to Mr. Fields program is that is can set up so that you will get factors for your BDC so that you can use a 308 cam on a 300 Win mag or what ever you need. :)

HDR - Congrates you win! I'm am a youngster. Now if I can just get all those youngster I work with to stop calling me gramps and old fart. :)

'lito - That is why they ask for only the baro and not altitude for these little computer do'hickies I been playing with lately. :) Wouldn't a bore sight do the same thing? We check our scopes with a bore sight (Bushnell cheapee) to make sure that the scopes are tracking straight and true and will box properly.

Joe M. - The ROEs and soldiers playing by them are what are getting guys hurt. It adds that second of should I or shouldn't I. soldiers are supposed to fight not wonder if they should. It is similar to the "feared for my life" defense. Whack the guys that over step but do not hamstring the guys ot the point of them doubting if they should shoot. I know that I am preaching ot the choir but it really bugs me and too much "Peace keeping" is ruining the soldier. Soldiers shoot, not wonder if they should.

Your point on rapid fielding is an important one. Too many do not know of it and commanders are some that do not. It can get you gear that you need real fast. Have fun with your little ones! And Joe, you are getting a bit long in the tooth as an officer to be playing some of those games. It is time fo ryou to play staff weiny and "advise" the underlings on how things should be done. :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 03:04:59 (ZULU)

Density altitude is a function of barometric pressure, temperature, and the amount of moisture in the air.

If you have a Kestrel, or some other way to determine those quantities, as well as a handheld computer with a ballistic program which takes inputs in the form of those data, of which there are several, your PDA is in effect calculating the density altitude when you enter those numbers, and it computes a ballistic solution for you. It just doesn't display the density altitude for you.

Now, if you have a Kestrel, or other devices which measure those quantities, and you didn't want to haul a PDA around, you could compute a chart for your particular load which would have a table of elevations which were a function of the density altitude, and it would be the only table which you would ever need for that load, no matter where you were shooting.

I've thought about building such a table to put in my data book, but haven't, yet. It's too easy to haul the PDA around, which I carry for other non-shooting purposes anyway. And the PDA is handy for other purposes, like computing target ranges from mil-radian measurements and moving target leads. (I still ALWAYS carry a Mildot Master, though.)

Perhaps this winter, on a long dark cold night, after I get a printer to replace the one which is currently broken...

Edited to add: Rick, I have used Horus ATRAG2P as well as Exbal. I prefer the Horus program, because the main PDA screen displays all of the parameters which go into the calculation, which allows you to determine instantly if the solution it calculated is computed for the correct set of parameters. It also handles the gun list better than Exbal. If Mr. Fields program does that as well, I'll want to take a look at it. Exbal doesn't do that - you have to page through the parameters screens one at a time.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 03:20:11 (ZULU)

Rick,

Yep...been feelin' that age creepin' in lately. My current orders have me reporting in at a Mobilization site, plans and training. I'll spend that time wondering what to do next, while maybe getting a little info into the the right hands. A nice safe staff job near where real soldiers will train for a real war. Not a bad place to ponder the future from...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 05:07:56 (ZULU)

Matt K. - “I am looking for opinions on suppressors for a .308... Is it worth jumping through all the hoops to get one? And what is recommended?”

I have an AWC Thundertrap on my SCLE #14. My normal load is Fed GMM 175s. Now I’m no technical guy and I don’t sleep in hotels very much so I have no idea how the hell this thing does what it does. But besides cutting the recoil a bit, improving accuracy a little and making the shooting a whole lot more pleasurable, it also blots out the supersonic crack of the 175.

This isn’t a subsonic round. It’s a standard Fed GMM 175. Somehow, the Thundertrap disperses the sound waves so that the crack appears to disappear. The bullet is still going supersonic. And it’s also hard to detect shooter direction.

AWC makes a comment on their website about smothering out the supersonic crack and a lot of guys on various boards take issue with it. But obviously, they haven’t actually shot one. I can’t explain it. Maybe somebody here can.

Aside of that, shooting with it is a (quiet) blast! I’ve got other AWC’s on my 5.56 M4 and 9mm Beretta. And if you really want some fun, try some subsonic ammo. I use the stuff from Engle Ballistic Research. Just be prepared for some strange elevation changes!

The whole suppressor thing is very subjective. The cost can be substantial for quality units. The Thundertrap cost $995 plus the “tax.” And as far as “quietness” goes, everyone will hear the same unit differently. And then there’s the ATF fun time. Mine ran 7 months start to finish for all three units.

Would I do it again? You betcha!!!!!!!!

'lito - “At this point, it's looking pretty good, and I have all the stuff I need to finish it - except time” :((

And the “froggy” t-shirt. I tried. :((

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 11:15:34 (ZULU)

I have a Jet suppressor for my AI .308. It's definitely worth the trouble. The reduction in recoil allows me to observe bullet impacts at ranges as short as 300 yards, which helps me make corrections, if necessary, on a followup shot. It's all titanium, solidly welded up. Click on my name for their web site.

To be truly quiet, you have to be shooting subsonic ammo, and subsonic ammo in a .308 is not going to be very accurate, because there is too much empty space in the case. Some say you can improve accuracy by using a filler in the case, but I haven't tried that with handloads yet. If you really want quiet and accuracy (out to about 300 yards or so), then you want a cartridge like the .300 Whisper, which is a .221 Fireball case necked up to .30 caliber.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 13:00:34 (ZULU)

Gents,

Anyone been to the shooting course that Mcmilian is offering? I was thinking of trying to use it as a precursure to Sniper school if I can get it. Just wondering what the shooters might have to say.

Supressors Make shooting a whole different experience.If I Didn't live in the republic of California There are a couple of guns that would have make the change.As to using Sonic ammo through one The crack is usually heard as a round passes overhead, so for the supressors that don't nulify the crack the main noise occures from next to the target as the round passes. This is why it is hard to determine the direction that the shot came from. Using Sub sonic ammo aleviates this problem. This is my understanding of what occures, but it makes sense but could be wrong.

Joe M.- In our defense joe, after the amount of "false" alarms that these guys push when anything sneezes over the wire anywhere there comes a point when you want to hear something before you run around with you deek in your hand, I don't know if I would call it complacency though. :)

Morgue
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 13:19:05 (ZULU)

Joe; The aspirin may be source of your capulary bleeding causing what looks and is a bruise of sorts. I've been on it for so long I look like I've tangled with a Bobcat when I trim bushes or trees without long sleeve shirts. Just about any encounter will cause bleeding under the skin anywhere. Mine is in the form of red (very close to the surface as opposed to blue deeper. ...or purple spots on my arms. You won't notice it much if your in the office but since you've been in the field it's more likely you'll notice it all the time due to encounters with sharp or semisharp objects bushes etc. Some people I know complain that their skin is thinner after the aspirin thing. That may be but I don't know anything except the slightest encounter will produce the effect. Don't stop taking the aspirin especially when your involved in heavy activity but you might slack off to one tablet or one every other day to check to see if that's what's causing your problem. A week off aspirin will clear me up just fine but other than a little thinning of the blood I've no bad effects other than that I'm still alive after 8 years behind the first heart attack. I do things nowadays that would kill a man with a good heart so it must be the aspirin. I have to be careful about sun exposure anyway so long sleeves don't hurt anything but I don't see how they stand those temperatures over in Iraq. That would kill me shortly.

Subsonic rounds can be launched with pistol powders such as Unique that normally are used in shot guns and pistols alike. IF velocity varies too much (over 50fps) I would use the magnum rifle primer to burn it off. There's a very good chance the rifle will actually shoot better especially if lead cast bullets are used. There is no percentage is using copper jackets in low velocity loads. In small caliber's the Hornady SX is an excellent bullet if one needs a jacket to prevent fouling. If one were pressed to recall the book called "Master Sniper". The German night vision sniper defeats himself by using too soft bullets and sub sonic rounds. An excellent take on the subject and one really good piece of writing by the master sniper writer of all time. Off to a high tech redneck meeting on fiber optic applications. Seeyall later.

Brogers
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 14:39:51 (ZULU)

This may be a "DUH" comment but I have a friend who has a suppressor on everything he shoots. His comments on supressors is similar to those already made. Based on what I've heard him say, I would have to question the claim to reduce the "crack" in the bullet flight because it is the result of the speed, not the report from inside the barrel. It's true that it makes it hard to determine where the shot came from, but only a sub-sonic round would be truely quiet.

Accuracy doesn't seem to be an issue with a supressor. My friend has an M-4 with a can on it. We were shooting it at about 350 yrds just to play with the select fire. I shot at a human silhouette at that range in two round bursts, off-hand. I could hit with the first round but recoil threw the second round off.

It seems that the "factory" sub-sonic ammo uses a heavier bullet to get a finishing energy reading that's effective. I was considering the 300 Whisper in an upper for my AR and a wise and experienced member of this site explained that accuracy and effectiveness in that round is limited to about 150 yrds or so. My SWAG (scientific wild ass guess for the uninformed) would be that loss of accuracy with a sub-sonic round might be at the point where it's speed might not work to stablize it any longer. Obviously a shorter distance than super-sonic. Anyway, that's my two cents worth and it's worth exactly what you paid for it. :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 14:44:04 (ZULU)

Catman, I plan on doing a US Tour next year. Once all is healed LOL. Maybe we can get together and shoot some. I have just had a kick shooting 223 at extreme range and know you would like that.

Rick, I know Blaine very well. Hell of a nice guy and he has his heart and soul into that project.

Now what we need is an affordable PDA that wont crap out in the field.

Lindy, (I always carry a Mildot Master)I have had enough of that conversation also.Take care my friend.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 15:28:19 (ZULU)

Rick & Lindy,

Thanks for the info, but I am to damn old to get into hand held computers or palm pilots.(HA) If the Kestrel gives me the corrected DA for any given day I would just make me a set of tables for my log book. I am into the KISS principal big time.

I am usually only looking at about a 2 MOA max change so thats not to hard to figure on. I could figure a DA for my base data an then go off of that depending on what the DA says. I should only have to add or subtract a MOA or so to be on target with a first round hit. Am I correct in this assumption??? Does the Kestrel give you a corrected DA reading??? Thanks!!!!

Mike,

When you go on tour, if you get out to South Dak or pass through, give me a shout you have a place to throw your ruck an we could go shoot some. We can shoot out to 1300yds around here. Good luck with the surgery.

Pat
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 17:25:59 (ZULU)

Hey guys. Your input would be appreciated.

I have a few 308s and am shopping for a 270WIN and am considering a Sako. Anyone have experience with them? Is it worth it?

Thanks in advance and Welcome home Joe

Doug

Doug Sickels
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 17:39:49 (ZULU)

Doug.

If you have a couple .308s, what do you want with a .270? The .308 can do everything a .270 can due to the better selection of bullets

medicjim
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 18:26:32 (ZULU)

Gents,

Suppressor's: Have owned "cans" for almost all my SMG's. BIG difference in sound signature. The units add a bit of weight, but are worth it, IMHO.

On rifles: Have played with them on rifles up to .50 cal. They do an excellent job of quieting the rifles and have the added advantage of hiding the signature of the weapon. As to the "crack" of the bullet it will sound 180 degrees out from the weapon.

Subsonics...you bet! Engel Ballistic Research, Whit Engel is the MAN.

His ammo is the best out there and his "Wraith" rifles are beyond compare. It's neat to be able to go click/plop. The loudest thing you hear is the trigger! Good Stuff!

Another acquaintance has a suppressed MG42. Now THAT is impressive!

Guess I run with a bad crowd...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 18:27:05 (ZULU)

Sir Wes,

I'll bet it hurts the wallet to feed that puppy! Is it a .308 or the original 7.92? Must be one heck of a can to stand up to that cyclic rate of fire.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 18:31:54 (ZULU)

MedicJim

I wanted to try something a little flatter shooting, slightly smaller caliber. I've been saving my pennies and just wanted to add to my stuff. I love the 308s I have, but thought I'd vary things a bit.

Doug

Doug Sickels
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 19:36:34 (ZULU)

Doug,

.308

Try loading the Laupa 155 scenars at > 2900 fps.... You can use the 300 win mag cam on the Leupold M3 / MK4 family of scopes to track....they run THAT FLAT!

medicjim
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 20:31:54 (ZULU)

If you want to protect a PDA in the field, try an Otterbox 2600. It's about $50. It's waterproof, floats with the PDA in it, and you don't have to take the PDA out of the box to use it - it is usable through the screen protector on the front, and even has an external storage clamp for the stylus. I've got one, and it works. Click on my name for the link.

Palm M125s are perfectly usable with the Horus program and Exbal, and are available on the web for less than a hundred bucks. I use a M500 Palm, because it's in daily use, but I have both, and both are usable in the same Otterbox. Neither are indestructible in that box, but neither are rifles and scopes. Especially scopes. Don't run over them with a truck.

Pat, the Kestrel computes density altitude for the temperature, atmospheric pressure, and atmospheric moisture content which it measures. In that context, I don't understand what you mean when you say "corrected DA reading."

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 20:58:08 (ZULU)

Doug,

what's your range? flat only gets you so far...

Joe,

<<Re-zero at any opportunity. Make your own opportunity.>>

I think I will etch that on me next barrelled action...then get you to sign it..

Hoo-ha...

JR
Langholm, Scotland the Brave, just north of England - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 21:20:46 (ZULU)

JR: Haha. I'd sign, too! What it all boils down to is this: The units over there are really taxed by missions and of course the heat---and some easily lose sight of the "little things" that are really important.

Leaders: Don't "go easy" if that means foregoing weapons maintenance or checking your troops zeros after thumping the guns around for a few weeks. It happens though. Everyone gets tired. That is when it is okay to be "unpopular."

It is all just observations, not a widespread failing by all units. I saw enough to comment on these things. These were a few things that either worked or needed to be watched based on random sights throughout the country. FWIW.

Morgue: I know...chicken littles' "sky is falling" reaction to those sneezes. Heheh. I verfiied the over-reactions each time though (my job--but I never interfered with their fun and games---it is okay by me to be over-paranoid), and I woulda woke ya up if shit was on our doortep. That night, it was "near enough" to warrat a good look---a little recce with NVGs; but far enough that if we were clear, we'd stay clear. I went back to bed after being bit up by the flies myself. I was dressed wrong for sure, for bugs! Had the armor and lid though.

One last thought for Morgue:

Didn't the boy who cried wolf get gobbled up? WY6! They may get it right one of these nights. At least go check the spot reports when they sound the alarms next time....okay? I'd like to see ya again, and you are pretty much alone out there relying on those guys--and way out on a limb! Believe me, if the shit does fly---they will look to you for direction. If nothing else, you can lay down a helluva base of fire with them. Heheh. And, take those jokers to the range! Make them go...they are NOT zeroed, especially those PVS tubes.

joe mahon
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 22:03:57 (ZULU)

Ok Gang,

BadLands will be having a Fall Individual Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle match October 9-10, 2004. Entries are now open. For further details click on my name. This match is open to Civilians, Military and Law Enforcement! Get ready!!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 02:53:25 (ZULU)

Ya'll heard that new country song:

It's hard to kiss the lips at night that chew your ass out all day long ?

No Joke ! Rodney Crowell - hilarious.

brian k. sain
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 05:31:53 (ZULU)

Yes Brian, and the video is pretty hilarious too.

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 07:10:53 (ZULU)

"I ain't got it in me to put it in you no more." unknown from local radio station.

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 11:06:37 (ZULU)

Good morning Sniper Country!

After lurking on your site since about 1997 I thought I would finally register and join the fray. My experience is limited but interest is high. I have explored the archives and gained much information from the sight. My gratitude to everyone that has made my life (shooting) better. Also my respect and gratitude to all in the service of defending our country and cities. I have more interests then I can shake a dipole at, so I may ask what appears to be silly questions to you, but are not to me. Please be gentle. Jeff in Indy!

Jeff in Indy
Indy, In, US of A - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 13:07:08 (ZULU)

Welcome, Jeff! Seven years ought to be good for a lurking award of some kind.

Ask away with silly questions - we have silly answers.

>shake a dipole at...

Another ham? Here is AK5N.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 13:29:15 (ZULU)

There is a 1K match this Sunday,(AUG 22) about 2PM at AEDC in Tullahoma TN. Everyone wanting to shoot long is invited to attend. Cost is $15 and it will follow the standard NRA prone Highpower format. Hit my email for questions.

sweepman@tds.net

FatBoy...

Chris
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:14:58 (ZULU)

The range I shoot at goes to 300yds. I appreciate the responses. Back to the original question though, and I don't care to support Europeans in any way but... what do you think of the Sako? It seems like a well designed rifle from the ads. Is it difficult to replace parts should it be needed? I'd just like to try a smaller caliber for variety. I've only shot 308s.

Thanks

Doug

doug sickels
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:43:32 (ZULU)

Lindy,

What I mean by the corrected DA is that the instrument reads the air an then even though you know your standing at 1400ft elevation the instrument gives you the "Corrected" altitude reading, of say 4350ft, because of the weather conditions in the area.

So instead of reading the "Actual" altitude it gives you the "Corrected" altitude. Then you would know in theory your bullets should fly flatter than your data of 1400ft says. Hope this helps clear it up. Now am I in the right ball park on my thinking on this???

Pat
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:52:47 (ZULU)

Doug,

I've heard good things about Sako's, but don't know anyone shooting one.

If you are looking for that style of rifle, you may also want to consider the Tikka 595 series. Mac Tilton (www.mtguns.com) sells them and they are very nice rifles. They can now be fitted with the two stage Barnard trigger. They are DM, with single stack mags.

FatBoy...

Chris
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:53:07 (ZULU)

Thanks, I'll look into them

Doug

doug sickels
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 15:11:52 (ZULU)

Just got back from a health and safety course, it was good fun, good bunch, good grub and beer. and on a health and safety note:

Moderators !! be very carefull with sub sonic loads in a 308 cal rifle with a 1 in 12 twist, you might be ok with light bullets, i dunno, but i know about the heavy bullets, you need at least a 1 in 10 to stableise the bullets, try the ammo in the rifle WITHOUT THE MODERATOR FITTED first, if you see keyholes in your target the chances are that you will bugger the can up with the bullits hitting the baffles. I had a 308 with a 1 in 10 twist 20" heym barrel, it would stableise the factory lapua sub sonics (200gr bullets) just fine, but they keyholed out of my 1 in 12 twist 308 sporter barrel. 1 in 8 twist is optimal for subsonics in a 308, i went for a 1 in 10 cos it would do both jobs..

JR send me an email to my home addy will you mate,, and with ref to what crawled up Jons rear and died,, yup it stunk like a skunk, i think it was the weizen beer and jerky that did it.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 15:36:57 (ZULU)

Chris

I did a search and it seems Tikka is made by Sako and is just a less expensive version.

Doug

doug sickels
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 16:16:53 (ZULU)

Pat: the short answer is that the Kestrel does not "correct" its density altitude calculation.

If you look at the barometric pressure window, you will note a reference for altitude. If you leave the reference set on zero, the reading you will get is absolute station pressure. If you set it to what your current altitude is known to be, you will get a reading corrected to sea level. You can watch that effect by changing the reference. If you increase the reference, the indicated reading goes up, and if you decrease the reference, the reading goes down.

Similarly, the altitude window has a reference setting for barometric pressure. It can only accurately calculate altitude if it knows what the barometric pressure corrected to sea level is.

A device which measures atmospheric pressure can either tell you what your altitude is, or what the barometric pressure is corrected to sea level is, but not both. You either have to know what your altitude is, in which case it can correct station pressure to barometric pressure at sea level, or know what the barometric pressure corrected to sea level is, in which case it can correctly compute your altitude. That's why pilots are continually having to check and correct the barometric pressure reference in their aneroid altimeters, although by regulation all use the same setting above 18,000 feet.

The barometric pressure which is reported in weather forecasts is always corrected to sea level, to avoid confusing people who don't know that atmospheric pressure decreases by about one inch of mercury per 1,000 feet. Telling people living in Leadville, Colorado, that the barometric pressure is 18 and some fraction inches of mercury would freak some of them out, as well as not giving them useful information about trends in the weather which are indicated by pressure changes.

Some ballistic programs - Horus ATRAG is one - work most accurately with uncorrected station pressure, so if using one in that mode, you'll want to leave the altitude reference on the barometric pressure window of your Kestrel set to zero.

The density altitude window in the Kestrel has no reference - and the reading you get is just the density altitude computed from the station pressure, station temperature, and station moisture reading.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 16:41:15 (ZULU)

Altitude, etc: Get away from "Corrected" altitude.... might be best to just call it what it is: Density Altitude...which appears to be an already established standard.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:03:59 (ZULU)

Doug,

I bought my wife a Tikka 270 whitetail hunter synthetic, stuck a loopy on it, and got away with giving it to her on her birthday by placing a diamond in the box. Turns out, the rifle alone was a gem in her eyes; she has taken 6 deer with it since. It is a fine huntin rig and very easy on the wallet. It is one of the few rifles in the safe that isn't picky about loads.

The tikka barrels come from the same place as the more expensive Sakos, and having both, I am impressed with the accuracy from either Sako or Tikka. I've even thought about a Tactical Tikka for the wife, to save a few bucks while having her along for my fun. The biggest headache is finding the Sako low rings at times due to limited production runs. It can be a frustrating search. They have a propriety dovetail grove that tapers on the Sakos, and is narrow and straight on the (older) Tikkas, making anything less than Sako rings and bases chancy. I tried some weavers made for them, and they sucked.

You can still find some Stoeger imports in the M995 (TRG-S)line of Sakos in a variety of chambers, including 270. I'd recommend looking about for those. Shirker's of PA had a pile, give them a call. Your dealer can order for ya. They are under 500 last I checked (hell, I bought one in 300WM just this way). Here in Wisconsin, they aren't big sellers, and deals can be had. I traded a Rossi 357 for a Tikka!

I am a huge fan of the Fins, though Morgue here is an even bigger fan. FWIW, I do not think you'll get better quality for the buck anywhere else.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:34:46 (ZULU)

Ken an Lindy,

Maybe thats what this weather station we use for drag racing does. It may give the corrected altitude above sea level for the conditions. Its not mine an I don't know enough about this stuff to even argue one way or the other. It says "DA" an then gives a reading. It is usually higher or lower than the actual altitude were at.

We race at one track that is at 3000ft elevation by the airport an the "DA" will vary from 3800 to as high as 7200ft on the same day. This is what got me thinking about the air an bullets flying through it. If the car runs like an thinks its at 7000ft maybe my bullets do too.

Pat
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:43:03 (ZULU)

Joe

It's an honor to me to have you reply to my post. I have tremendous respect for you. I've been replied to by "The" Joe Mahon

Thank you and all you guys for your service.

Doug

doug sickels
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:49:24 (ZULU)

I like Tikka above Sako myself. Nice guns.

Barometers sometimes have to be corrected to sea level to get them in range. Especially these wrist watch units will only read a few points either way and must be corrected when elevation changes greatly.

Actually in shooting you only need change your impact based on how much the barometer as actually changed from your original zeroed the rifle setting. But if you put elevation into your computer program and also barometer readings you must correct the barometer reading to sea level or calculations will be wrong.

Lets say you move from 3500 elev to 4500 and the barometer reads different (the one you take with you); you only need to change the barometer reading in the program and not elevation within the computer program to obtain the corrections for the new altitude. IF you are using a weather bureau or other local instrument it will have been corrected to altitude so you must also input the elevation. I hope I said this right.

Brogers
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:05:58 (ZULU)

Pat said, "If the car runs like an thinks its at 7000ft maybe my bullets do too."

Bingo. The corrections are of course not quite the same, but air density certainly affects drag as well as factors which go into supercharger or turbocharger performance.

Mr. Rogers: if one is going to use a computer program to compute ballistic data with a view to shooting more accurately in different environments, one must first ensure that the program computes data which correspond to the results we get from shooting. For example, if you put your environmental data, muzzle velocity, and bullet data into the program, and it computes an elevation for some distance than is different from what you actually get, you must correct the program, so that the computed results match the results from shooting.

The easiest way to do this is usually to adjust the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, until the results match. Once that is done, when you are shooting in a different environment the computer solution will more closely match the actual performance of the bullet in the new environment.

And for that to work, it's also a good idea to ensure that the elevation adjustments of a given scope are also either accurate or at least consistent. I had a Leupold which was about 5 percent off, and it certainly required adjustment to the data I got from a ballistic program.

Hitting targets at long distances in varying environments is not a simple task. That's both the good news, and the bad, as the difficulty is one of the things which makes it interesting. :-)

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:41:26 (ZULU)

Joe and Doug, the Tikka T3 tactical is available with a picatinny rail. The Sako should be easy enough to fit a picatinny to. If you need Sako factory rings let me know cos i can get them here easy enough. The Tikka T3 is a very nice rifle, the stock is a bit flexible at the front end and could do with a bit more clearance, otherwise a great gun, Tikkas and Sako's come from same company, both have always been stylish nicely finnished rifles that 99.9% of the time display exeptional out of the box accuracy. McMillan have stock inletting programs for the Model 65, 55,595,658,659 sako 75 according to thier paperwork.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:42:21 (ZULU)

Don't the Sakos have threaded holes to bolt scope rings to?

I thought I saw something in their catalog that had some sort of quick detach scope mounts (which I wouldn't want). Maybe I misread.

Doug

doug sickels
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:57:24 (ZULU)

GUN CONTROL

Just found this on an airgun forum and applies to across the pond folks more but maybe everyone should read and see what could be coming our way.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/controls_on_firearms.pdf

This is requesting feedback from those living in England, Scotland and Wales regarding proposed changes.

You can click on my name to get there as well

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 20:27:09 (ZULU)

Byron,

Wow,

I thought that might be something encouraging from the brits, shoulda known better. Whadda crock of sh...

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 22:17:06 (ZULU)

Byron,

Drivel like that will never make it to our shores and knowing never to say never, even if it did, there'd be hell to pay.

They harp on controlling "gun crime" when what they should be controlling is CRIME period. This from a country that penalizes the VICTIM if he fights back and bends over for the PERP! WTF??!! Just like most, if not all, of Europe does now.

When you don't have a Constitution (or ANY document) that specifically enumerates God-given rights, it becomes real easy to implement gun control or registration or whatever you want to call it.

And then they show those stupid "gun deaths per 100,000" for various countries. Of course, the US tops the list while those "civilized" countries have much lower rates. But they fail to show the "deaths per 100,000" for things like baseball bats, kitchen forks, chopsticks, machetes and all the other utensils that have replaced the "gun" as the defensive weapon d'jour in those "civilized" places!

Propaganda for the state educated fools, girly men and anybody else that goes "baaaaaaaa!"

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 22:23:33 (ZULU)

Doug,

I use a Sako 75 stainless synthetic in 270 for work. Everyone else here uses the Tikka in 308. I had my choice and chose the Sako. Sako has a nicer finish and 'feels' quality. The double stack magazine works very well too with a 5 round mag sitting flush with the stock and can be loaded from the top (in the rifle). Tikka is single stack with the 5 rounder sitting well out there.

On performance, both rifles shoot very well. At least mine did till it was threaded for a moderator. JR had a look at the crown and said it was none too good and gave it a wizz with the drill. Still haven't tried it on paper, but does seem to be shooting better on deer. Under 1" @ 100yds with factory hunting ammo (Sako and RWS) is the norm with several of the rifles in the 0.5" region.

If I were going for a Tikka I would go for the Continental (heavy barrel). I don't like the Tikka stocks in general, particularly the palm swell, but I do like the Continental (except its wood :-/). Sako stock fits me like a glove. Both on my rifle and a couple of the Tikkas I have had to relieve the forend to prevent the barrel touching. Seems to be a particular problem if using a bipod and/or moderator (suppressor). Its no big deal with a piece of sandpaper.

Triggers are great on both and are easily adjusted with an allen key down to a 2lb clean crisp pull. Can't honestly see a need to replace them.

Also have a new T3 Lite in the District. The stock is truely aweful, it feels like a cheap kid's toy. Tikka have really let their name down with it.

I don't think you would be disappointed with either Sako or Tikka. Try and get your hands on both makes and a few types if you can before you buy.

As for calibre, I chose 270 over 308 for deer work. Flatter shooting at the ranges we work and harder hitting. I have seen deer (sika) run off and not found after being hit a bit back with a 308, when the same shot with the 270 would have had it on the deck within 50-100yds.

Hope it helps.

Jon

Oh yeah, the Sako rings are advertised as being 'quick release' and said to be repeatable. Not convinced myself, too many 'bits'. I would prefer a sturdier system myself after the first time I set the rings up they came loose. The ring screws into a base that is then slid over the dove tails on the receiver and tightend down with a soft screw. After they came loose I screwed the rings to the bases r-e-a-l tight after gluing the threads. Then replaced the soft screws that clamp the bases to the rifle with an allen headed machine bolt; and screwed that down r-e-a-l tight too (remember JR, screw em' till they squeak ;-) ). Not moved since.

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 22:44:39 (ZULU)

Lindy & readers; there is very little to disagree with what Lindy seems to be saying. It goes without saying that a computer program must accurately reflect what the rifle is doing at a particular set of conditions before it's much value when the conditions change.

The fact that some scopes don't adjust accurately would be aside from any computer error. What you say about the likelyhood of scope adjustments being off correct of course.

A shooter needs to be aware of each and every click of that scope turret to be sure that it does accurately move the bullet along with the computed data. Those clicks should each be observed not usually by shooting but with devices such as screen cluminators (bore sighters) in order to determine their repeatability and accuracy. The amount of range of the turrets and the change during power changes is also or at least can be observed in that way. You may shoot to confirm the results and that's what Sunday afternoons are for. (This has all been said here many times but now and then we have to repeat it for those who just changed channels.)

Brogers
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 01:04:52 (ZULU)

Doug: You oughta wait til Rick, Kevin, Lito Mike, Gooch, George, Bobby, Sarge, Marius, or any other hawg replies to your post---now there is an honor!

A few years ago, Lito did just that for me....and I realized that I may have finally contributed to a conversation. Me, I am no spectacular shot nor am I very smart on the finer points of ballistics--but these guys are!

On DA: It is THE factor for how much weight I'll fly with.

Gents: Between Doug and the applause at the airport--I'm gonna be insufferable. Jeez, lookit me big ol' head!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 01:07:25 (ZULU)

From www.adoptasniper.org ... Wife cusses out SNIPER on SAT phone.

Ya know those irritating telemarketer guys from ATT that call every PM when you get off of work, wanting you to change phone services ?

Well, a Sniper in the desert, ON AN ATT SAT PHONE ... sounds a WHOLE lot like one. Pauses between answers and all, ATT on the caller ID ...

Well ... I got no answer after the ring and hung up on the poor fellow that called (who was just coming off his watch) the FIRST time.

He called back two or three more times and the wife tried to answer each time. When they finally connected ... the wife (full blooded Cajun) flipped the selector switch and let him have a full magazine. Slammed the phone down ... WHAM. ... Wow ! Shock and Awe ... That'll teach 'im ...

You go girl.

He braved it again ... I answered this time.

"I am sorry sir, I'm calling from Iraq but I think I made your wife mad ..."

Had to explain ... lmao

Wife: "Is he a SNIPER ? ... "

Me: "Yes Ma'am. United States Marine Corps Sergeant, risking life and limb to preserve your right to cuss him out ..."

She feels terrible ...

Sorry RJ.

_________________

"The most deadly weapon on any battlefield is the single well-aimed shot"

CPT Jim Land, USMC

Sniper School Instructor

1st MAR DIV Vietnam 1966

brian k. sain
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 02:40:04 (ZULU)

Joe, re:Sako rings:

Sako distribution seems to be good into Canada.

I see the Sako Optilock rings and bases listed in a Canadian mailorder catalog (Le Barons). These folks normally have good access to the products they list.

I think they'll do export to the US, if not I can probably help.

At the present moment, we don't have export regs like the US ITAR rules in place, so I don't yet need an export permit for same.

If you need more details let me know.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 04:18:54 (ZULU)

BKS: CPT Land was dead-on.

So called suppressive fire is often mistaken for making alot noise, shooting to shoot, as it were. Even the Marines do this, and I concede to all you Jar-heads that you ARE the best-trained Riflemen of the services--just remember back to the Fallujah battles. We all saw the spray and pray employed from behind a wall. I can tell ya from a few years of taking fire that after the first few shocks--only that which is aimed at ya gets and keeps your attention. Mortars tend to be random, rifles with sights ought not be. There are many impediments to fixing this problem--but none insurmountable. Heck, these wars will do much of the "attitude" fixes all by themselves. Many young officers and mid grade NCOs will come back remembering how it woulda been great to have hit the BGs on any given day---they will stress the basics. Training needs to be a snowball rolling through units. As a strong willed leader gets the thing going---it takes on a life of it's own. CPT Land was one such man. This effect wasn't widespread in the "Nam---because we tended to discard vets as fast as we made them. But the many vets who stayed made huge strudes in the early 80s with training. Now, we are doing two things different: First, we rotate by units---this gives a chance to refine the lessons' learned at the training base; and second, we are doing it all with volunteers (no draft) so a larger percentage will stay around to keep the training going down the road. Plus, the CSA and his cohorts realize the importance of marksman ship and have begun increasing the requirements. This is all good.

The next problem to accomplishing meaningful changes in basic marksmanship is funding. The single biggest roadblock here is Rummy--he is sold on high-tech solutions and a vision of change that may have been relevant before 9/11 but is DOA now. He needs to wake up and smell the Humas. What good is a millimeter wave riding missile if the platform can't get close enough to paint and launch? In an assymetric environment, we need people who can shoot, move and communicate. Then the sexy toys can finish the job if needed. I haven't seen the smart bomb yet that distinguishes between a family at home and a terrorist safe house...

We need bullets. We need plenty in Iraq and a whole lot more in CONUS. We need new barrels, not new plastic guns. In that, we not only need to double the zero and quals---but we need to add quarterly live fire scenarios at the squad and maybe platoon level. Stressful shoots, with noise and smoke and movement. Anyone can be taught to shoot---but we need shooters that can do it when the game is on. Staid little KD ranges are nice, but that should only be the beginning.

Money can't solve everything--but it sure would go a long way to a more effective war on terror if used to by small arms rounds!

I will be bitterly pissed if I get to this MOB job and find a constraint on bullets. Heheh---I am prepared to be pissed, and am thinking of ways to find (divert) funding already!

Rant off. Baby-sitting (wife is getting a much needed break) makes for some good roster-time!

Geoff: Due to my mom buying a house (with my down payment)---we cancelled Disney (grrrr---a year of dreaming). If you have a day off---let me know if you wanna shoot.

Last: My AR barrel moves about 5 degrees either way off center. If I take the front post and upper receiver, it is a bit loose. It shoots well and locks up fine---but none I ever played with before does this. Should I worry?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 04:55:37 (ZULU)

Ref: M-14

I spent yesterday shooting in Utah with a friend. I got some trigger time on an M-14. Brrrrrrrrrrp.......now that was the fun part. I haven't created a beaten zone in a long time....it was good for me.

;-)

Back to work tomorrow.

Ref: Storm Mountain Sniper Match

Who's going?

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 11:22:39 (ZULU)

Kevin - "Storm Mountain match" - do you have info, etc...??? didnt know one was gonna happen.....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 11:28:38 (ZULU)

Ref: Storm Mountain Match

September 25&26/Usual stuff plus a 10 mile forced march with #40 pack.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 11:35:04 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for the info, an your exactly dead on when you say its damn hard to hit a target first time out at long range in all conditions. But hell if it was easy then everyone would be doing it!!!!!! Thats why we practice, practice, practice..........

Pat
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 13:04:29 (ZULU)

Joe: You said the barrel in your AR moves about 5 degrees. Is the bbl (extension) moving in the upper receiver, or is the whole upper receiver/bbl assembly moving on the lower? Makes a BIG difference.

By the by, guys, I got an e-mail that has boogered up the computer; gonna hafta reformat the hard drive to get rid of it. All I did was open my Hotmail account and WHAM! For the time being, you get anything from gthammer@hotmail.com, LEAVE IT ALONE. Now, I'm not averse to looking at nekkid wimmin, but not on the computer, gots little girlie childs living here. FYI.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 13:51:40 (ZULU)

Kevin

Storm Mountain Match..

I'm planning to attend, my partner has yet to make a ghillie or fire a few practice rounds, should be interesting.

See you there either as a competitor or observer.

Joe Mahon

You get a chance to go over to the Hide-A-While yet?? If so say Hi to Sally and the Hoover (Randy, Steve & Joe) regulars. Watch out for Steve, he gets stuck on auto-rewind some times.

Dave "Doc" King
Maryland, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:00:45 (ZULU)

Joe - you're right on, sir. And the troops know it, too. I was recently chatting with the NCOIC of the sniper section of an airborne division, and was shocked to find out that I personally fired more rounds through my .308 last year than was allotted by the Army to his entire section. In my opinion, that amounts to criminal neglect. The guys like to shoot, and WANT to shoot, because they know it's their butts on the line. The cost of a single F-22 would buy a lot of cartridges. There is no excuse for not properly training the troops.

And despite your kind words, while the Marine Corps does a good job of teaching the fundamentals of markmanship in boot camp, I think the Army does a better job of teaching the skills necessary in combat, and, like the Army, the Marine Corps does a dismal job of skills maintenance after boot camp.

One of the characteristics of 4th generation warfare is that there is no rear area, so everyone, not just the infantry, needs shooting skills. "Wake up and smell the humus", indeed.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:01:02 (ZULU)

Mornin' All,

Thought I'd get in one last note before I go under the knife in the morning'. I'll have my left wing outa commission fer a month or so after that soes typing will be even more of a struggle than it already is. It's my left shoulder and the only reason God gave me a right arm is to look like the rest of the world. So much for my whinein'.

You guys have got me to thinking about Long Range shooting with a MODERN rifle. . . don't tell my black powder buddies!!!

I have seen some of Y'all mention shootin' a Remington 700 . . . well my old hunting rifle is a 700 BDL in .270 with a Leopold Vari X III 3.5 - 10 with parallax adj. fer optics purchased this back in the late 60s early 70s seems like I got it in 1968. Seems like I gave $180.00 for the rifle and $160.00 for the scope. Spending $340.00 for the combo cost me a divorce. I missed her for a while!!

What is the consensus of opinion from you masters on the possibility of making it a LR shooter?

I never did like the trigger on the 700 felt sloppy . . not crisp like my Whitworth or Sharps.

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint sharp,

Jim

Jim McNabb
Arlington, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:32:00 (ZULU)

WEll, .... a lot of good chat n suggestions on the roster lately, but maybe we all can do a small part on behalf of our brave service men and women by contacting our congressmen, both house and senate and inform them about the sheer stupidity of not giving the soliers their best opportunity to be more effective. More bullets are cheaper then paying out life insurance. Bottom line.....more training, real training,.... will increase survivability and lower all the costs both emotional and financial of troops coming home in bags. These politicians dont see the family side of things, only the dollars.

Steve S
Ft,. Bragg AO, North Cackilackie, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:44:05 (ZULU)

On another note.......

Update on Monty........... the meds are working and hes down to one siezure a week and a mild one at that. The hope is that with a little more time and tweekin of the med, there hopefully wont be any siezures at all. Thanks so very much from my wife, son, daught-in-law and myself for all the preyers.

God bless you all and our troops!

Steve S
Ft,. Bragg AO, North Cackilackie, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:47:23 (ZULU)

This may have been covered long ago but I will risk asking

Most bullets are seated to a "calculated" depth based on many factors and are not crimped for accruacy due to variations of resistance and it's effect on the pressure curve and burn characteristics. In a tactical/combat/hunting scenario where their are rounds in the magazine, the recoil from the first shot will force contact of the bullet in the mag well and shorten the OAL. Does this have a significant impact on the accuracy (I think it would) and how is it dealt with. Thanks for your replies

Mule

Mule
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 15:34:09 (ZULU)

Jon

Thanks for the reply. I can't see buying the Sako if the only option is the quick detach rings. I definitely want a simple bolt on system.

Joe

The praise has nothing to do with your shooting. I admire you and all the others for fighting those pieces of shit over there. Why don't they get a goddamn job, they won't have time to pray or fight.

Good luck to you and your family

Doug

doug sickels
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 15:42:34 (ZULU)

Joe M,

I had great hopes for the Army when Iraqi Freedom was happening. It seems like now that the major ground combat is over the same old stuff is happening again. You are absolutely right in that soldiers need to know how to shoot, move, and communicate. We didn't train that enough when I was in, and it seems it hasn't changed.

I think you are right that the only "fun" place to be is SOCOM. I looked into going SF but decided that it would be detrimental to my new marriage. That was over fifteen years ago and we are still married. I can say for sure that I made at least one correct decision in my life.

I still have hopes that the Army will wake up and smell the coffee, but I'm not going to hold my breath. The bureaucracy rules.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 16:42:37 (ZULU)

Doug,

I wouldn't let the rings bother you too much. Just make sure they are on tight and don't think of them as 'QD'. Our rifles are used everyday during the season, in and out of vehicles, banged about and knocked over and I haven't yet seen one shift zero (other than mine before I tightened it up and loctited the threads). The new(er) Tikkas use the same rings as the Sako I believe.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 17:01:58 (ZULU)

Stev S, all my prayers. Hope things get better.

Kevin, ten mile martch with pack? Now that is closer to a match than I have seen in awhile. Good job Rod. One of the things I truly like about Rod Ryan and his events is you have to carry everything all the time. Now what will the guys do with all that equipment, bench rests, weather stations, computers, portable reloading stations, Big old drag bags and 20lbs bench rest rifles? I bet George could make a mint standing half way through the course with sited in GA Precision Rocks.

Pat, I will take you up on that offer.

Lindy, cant agree with you on who does the better training. I think it goes more base to base and commander to commander than that. I have seen some pretty outstanding training at Pendeleton. The field craft taught there is as good as I have seen. Shooting is excellent also. I once gave up 500 rds of 308 Match to an Army Sniper Unit I was training because they had no match ammo and shooting 147 ball was not giving them alot of confidence.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 17:45:42 (ZULU)

Gents,

Lots of good posts. Seems we agree on about everything...

Steve, good news on Monty. Know it's rough seeing him go through this...you can feel pretty helpless at times. He's in our prayers.

On training: You can't get enough trigger time. When I retired we did a yearly qualification in the Marines. NOT enough, although the KD course did instill confidence that you could hit at 500.

F-22's. Seems to me I read the price tag was going to be $200,000,000 plus. That'll by a lot of ammo and training.

Looks like SOCOM is getting whatever they ask for...to bad the other services don't get like treatment.

All for now. Taking the grand kids to the mountains today. Bet I'm gonna hurt in the morning...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 17:50:18 (ZULU)

For those shooting a .243 Winchester. I decided to try some Hornady 105 grain Amax bullets in my factory Remington 700 VS. Only thing done to the rifle is a trigger adjustment. I shot three groups of three shots each at 100 yards. The smallest group measured 0.152”. Largest group measured 0.704”. Average of the three groups was 0.426”.

HDR
OK, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 18:55:44 (ZULU)

Okay...I'm your huckleberry...

Its REAL easy to bitch that you cant get training in the military. However I will tell you that if a unit aint getting trained right its more than likely traceable to a shit head NCO. Remember I done the E-1 through CWO thing okay so I seen all sides of the issue.

NCO's have to forcast training, develop a plan, submit requests etc. Ammo has to be forcast, ranges locked on etc. Some guys dont understand the process. Some think that when they pin on rockers its time to take the pack off. Shitte, thats when the work starts....

It also takes INITIATIVE. When I had a sniper section we would do range estimations, tgt detections, stalks etc whenever there was a spare moment. I would work with other battalions in the regiment to share training resources, ranges, ammo etc. 1/5 and 3/5 once spent 2 days on a range in Pendleton slinging lead till we were tired of it. Cant get Match ammo??? Snag some LMG ammo and go get dope for it....

NCO's have to understand training and have to dig to make it happen sometimes. I got the "Sorry Sgt Gooch we cant get that training area/ammo etc, for you" many times....Shiite....We trained anyway...Sometimes it was just humping off behind the regimental area and doing survival training but my job was to keep our sorry asses out of garrison so my shiite heads wouldnt get in trouble!!!! Spent many days snagging Z's off in some corner of Pendleton. BUT WE WERE AWAY FROM THE FLAGPOLE and in the bush... Loved those assholes...

Oh yeah.. And if you are just training to minimum standards...you aint training...

Out here

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 20:30:23 (ZULU)

Mike: I think that's right. I was thinking less of the guys with long guns, though, than of the guys with M4s. The MEUs get to shoot a reasonable amount during their pre-deployment workups, but I don't think most others get near enough trigger time. And Kent is right that shooting is not all there is to training, too. But given that Joe M. has been in the sandbox, and he doesn't think there's enough time training, nor do guys I've talked to recently, I think we can do better - and should.

Ted Fehrenbach, in his book _This Kind of War_, about Korea, said:

"Americans in 1950 rediscovered something that since Hiroshima they had forgotten: you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life -- but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud."

We keep forgetting that - we forgot it again between Korea and Vietnam, and apparently again since, perhaps several times. And "transformation" hasn't changed that. And those young men ought to be able to shoot.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 20:50:06 (ZULU)

Been at the Doctors today, got a bunch of tablets to swallow for Lymes Disease.. damn them ticks..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 22:31:41 (ZULU)

Lindy re: MEU's and ammo

My understanding that the full acronym is MEU/SOC (or something very close). SOC is "Special Operations Capable". Wanna bet that the SOCOM fairy waves her magic wand over the MEU ammunition allocation?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 22:32:19 (ZULU)

Joe M,

Sent you an email.

Vaughn

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 23:00:04 (ZULU)

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