Sniper Country Duty Roster

August 2004


Joe S. I had the same probmlem with a M1. I believe I fixed it by holding the drum with padded pliers and snugging the nut up. Dos Zaps, Sarge or Bruce could give you good info on the real fix. Oh and the reason you like everyone you have meet so far is cause you aint met me yet. Ha

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
I ate the last mango in Paris, I took the last plane out of Siagon, I took the first fast boat to China, and Jimmy there's still so much to be done., Texas, U. S. of A! - Sunday, August 1, 2004, at 02:20:20 (ZULU)



Edited

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
I ate the last mango in Paris, I took the last plane out of Siagon, I took the first fast boat to China, and Jimmy there's still so much to be done., Texas, U. S. of A! - Sunday, August 1, 2004, at 02:20:54 (ZULU)


Sorry for the quad post but I got a msg saying this page is not available so I re-submitted a few times. I got some Oat Meal Stout calling me.

Dirty Steve, Really out this time.

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
I ate the last mango in Paris, I took the last plane out of Siagon, I took the first fast boat to China, and Jimmy there's still so much to be done., Texas, U. S. of A! - Sunday, August 1, 2004, at 02:25:15 (ZULU)


Mornin' All,

Marius: sorry for having to use the list to get this to you.  When I click on you name (or any other staff member's)off of the list I get a "this page is unavailable message"??  I am changing my ISP; new address is:

jmacnabb@comcast.net

Also I have moves sense I joined the list . . . do you want to update my physical address?

Charles Hunt:  I got a message from: Chuck Hunt gthammer@hotmail.com subject line: Fw: Truth

I don't know if that is one of yours or not.  It may be a coincidence I'm gettin' 40-50 spam messages a day.  But, I thought I'd better let you know JUST in case you didn't send it.   Since the move the work on the Gilley has stopped.  I couldn't find a Humvee with a hand grenade in my garage!!  I got WAY too much stuff!!  I will win the "He who dies with the most shit wins" contest!!

To all of you that went to Viet Nam for your Senior trip . . . . WELCOME HOME, BROTHER.  I wasn't there my tour of duty was spent at LTV helping make the Corsair IIs and the A7 As,Bs,Cs,Ds.  You Bush Bunnies that called in an air strike if it was answered by Corsairs or A7s I might have had a small part in getting that plain in the air.  

To those of you that are in the sand box now, or, are about to go . . .  Keep your powder dry and your flint sharp.  You ARE keeping America and collaterally the world safe from those who do not understand freedom and liberty long live the memory of William Wallace!!.  I'll get off of my soap box now.

Jim McNabb

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Texas, USA - Sunday, August 1, 2004, at 14:51:16 (ZULU)


Jim McNab.....yeah, that was me.  Thought it was worth sending on to those on my list.  Indiansinger....I got called a baby killer once at SFO, by some long-haired, maggot-infested, dope-stupefied radical hippie scumbag. Once.  The immediate and extremely hostile response prevented any further occurances.  Airport police kinda took their time getting there.  Who says violence doesn't solve anything?  

The Howa finally finished at the 1k match today.  Anyone mounting a Badger 20 moa base on a Howa, take note that the rear of the receiver is mille about .0025 lower than the front, and does not take the Rem. 700 base exactly without being shimmed.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, August 2, 2004, at 00:40:09 (ZULU)


Thanks Chuck,

I'll open and read.  That L-H, M-I, D-S, RHPS you crossed paths with on you was home wasn't John Kerry by chance, was it???  Speaking of ol' jfk did Y'all know he has his photo hanging' on the wall in the "friends of the cause" museum in Ho Chi Minn City, right next to jane fonda???  Buddy of mine sent me the article.  Y'all want to see it?

Jim

JIm McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Lone Star, USA - Monday, August 2, 2004, at 13:27:29 (ZULU)



Hey Charles,

   Don't hold back Dude, tell us what you really thought about the guy at SFO !!!!!!    :-)

   The really ironic things is that the guy is probably making big money as John Kerry's Campaign Manager.

   On a more forum related issue, I didn't have good luck with the Varget in my .223 win and a 69 gr bullet. I use it for the .308 and love it but, with a 75 gr .223 Hornady Match bullet, believe it or not, I'm shooting sub-minute groups at 100 yrds (around 1/2" or less) with a Rem 700 LTR and Accurate 2520. A friend and I were shooting accurate head shots at 400 yrds with that round. The Varget, it's claimed, isn't as temperature sensative as other powders.

   I've had good luck with a .308 win, 168 gr Berger VLD with Varget, Accurate 2520, and IMR 4064. The only difference is that the Berger shoots about 1/2" higher than the Sierra Matchking at 100 yrds, and I like the consistancy of the Varget, no matter the weather.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Monday, August 2, 2004, at 13:42:08 (ZULU)


If there's such a thing as a principled lawyer in Oshkosh, I see a massive Title '83 lawsuit that the city can't defend.  That's the section of the Federal laws that allows lawsuits for infringement of civil rights under color of law.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 2, 2004, at 14:11:24 (ZULU)


Chuck,

>>>Thought it was worth sending on to those on my list.<<<<

I got it as well. Good read. Good points.

--

HDR,

Excellent story on the sheep/sheep dog/wolf angle. There are those that are on the playing field and those that are in the stands....watching. I never was much of a spectator.

--

Indiansinger,

Ever tried any RL15 with your .308? Just wondering cuz I'm thinking about loading up some (for grins and giggles). Supposed to be temp tolerant from desert to arctic....so they say.  

--

Something to think about:

There have been more than 20 films made about Pearl Harbor, and over

200 films made about World War II. These films inspire patriotism, courage, and nationalism. They tell us about the honor and bravery of the soldiers and the nation that supported them.

Two and a half years after the attack on Pearl Harbor,

the world watched American forces fight on D-Day.

Two and a half years after the Sept. 11 terrorist/massacre attacks,

the world is watching Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11."

There is already talk that Kerry (if elected) would go to Iraq and apologize for our rude behavior.

--

Anybody here gonna be at the Sept. Adv. I class @ Badlands?

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Monday, August 2, 2004, at 14:43:50 (ZULU)


Heyall,

It's been forever since I have visited, or posted on the DR. It's been good to see some of the old Rosterfarians are still around.

Best regards to Y'all,

Bill Bledsoe

Kentucky

Bill Bledsoe Email this member See this member's profile
Outback in , KY, USA - Monday, August 2, 2004, at 21:22:35 (ZULU)


Hi I am riding my Harley down to Camp Perry tomorrow Tuesday for the day.I will have my Snipercountry Hat on. If you see me say hi. Charlie

Charlie Mitzelfeld Email this member See this member's profile
Ann Arbor,, MI, USA - Monday, August 2, 2004, at 22:31:37 (ZULU)


Burial at Sea

by LtCol George Goodson, USMC (Ret)

In my 76th year, the events of my life appear to me, from time to time, as a series of vignettes. Some were significant; most were trivial.

War is the seminal event in the life of everyone that has endured it.  Though I fought in Korea and the Dominican Republic and was wounded there Vietnam was my war.

Now 37 years have passed and, thankfully, I rarely think of those days in Cambodia, Laos, and the panhandle of North Vietnam where small teams of Americans and Montangards fought much larger elements of the North Vietnamese Army.  Instead I see vignettes: some exotic, some mundane:

*The smell of Nuc Mam.

*The heat, dust, and humidity.

*The blue exhaust of cyclos clogging the streets.

*Elephants moving silently through the tall grass.

*Hard eyes behind the servile smiles of the villagers.

*Standing on a mountain in Laos and hearing a tiger roar.

*A young girl squeezing my hand as my medic delivered her baby.

*The flowing Ao Dais of the young women biking down Tran Hung Dao.

*My two years as Casualty Notification Officer in North Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland.

It was late 1967.  I had just returned after 18 months in Vietnam.  Casualties were increasing.  I moved my family from Indianapolis to Norfolk, rented a house, enrolled my children in their fifth or sixth new school, and bought a second car.

A week later, I put on my uniform and drove 10 miles to Little Creek, Virginia.  I hesitated before entering my new office. Appearance is important to career Marines.  I was no longer, if ever, a poster Marine.  I had returned from my third tour in Vietnam only 30 days before.  At 5'9", I now weighed 128 pounds 37 pounds below my normal weight.  My uniforms fit ludicrously, my skin was yellow from malaria medication, and I think I had a twitch or two.

I straightened my shoulders, walked into the office, looked at the nameplate on a Staff Sergeant's desk and said, "Sergeant Jolly, I'm Lieutenant Colonel Goodson.  Here are my orders and my Qualification Jacket."

Sergeant Jolly stood, looked carefully at me, took my orders, stuck out his hand we shook and said, "How long were you there, Colonel?"  I replied "18 months this time." Jolly breathed, "Jesus, you must be a slow learner Colonel."  I smiled.

Jolly said, "Colonel, I'll show you to your office and bring in the Sergeant Major.  I said, "No, let's just go straight to his office."  Jolly nodded, hesitated, and lowered his voice, "Colonel, the Sergeant Major.  He's been in this G*dd@mn job two years. He's packed pretty tight.  I'm worried about him." I nodded.

Jolly escorted me into the Sergeant Major's office.  "Sergeant Major, this is Colonel Goodson, the new Commanding Office.  The Sergeant Major stood, extended his hand and said, "Good to see you again, Colonel."  I responded, "Hello Walt, how are you?"  Jolly looked at me, raised an eyebrow, walked out, and closed the door.

I sat down with the Sergeant Major.  We had the obligatory cup of coffee and talked about mutual acquaintances. Walt's stress was palpable.  Finally, I said, "Walt, what's the h-ll's wrong?"  He turned his chair, looked out the window and said, "George, you're going to wish you were back in Nam before you leave here.  I've been in the Marine Corps since 1939.  I was in the Pacific 36 months, Korea for 14 months, and Vietnam for 12 months. Now I come here to bury these kids.  I'm putting my letter in.  I can't take it anymore." I said, "OK Walt. If that's what you want, I'll endorse your request for retirement and do what I can to push it through Headquarters Marine Corps."

Sergeant Major Walt Xxxxx retired 12 weeks later.  He had been a good Marine for 28 years, but he had seen too much death and too much suffering.  He was used up.

Over the next 16 months, I made 28 death notifications, conducted 28 military funerals, and made 30 notifications to the families of Marines that were severely wounded or missing in action. Most of the details of those casualty notifications have now, thankfully, faded from memory.  Four, however, remain.

MY FIRST NOTIFICATION

My third or fourth day in Norfolk, I was notified of the death of a 19 year old Marine.  This notification came by telephone from Headquarters Marine Corps.  The information detailed:

*Name, rank, and serial number.

*Name, address, and phone number of next of kin.

*Date of and limited details about the Marine's death.

*Approximate date the body would arrive at the Norfolk Naval Air Station.

*A strong recommendation on whether the casket should be opened or closed.

The boy's family lived over the border in North Carolina, about 60 miles away.  I drove there in a Marine Corps staff car.  Crossing the state line into North Carolina, I stopped at a small country store / service station / Post Office.  I went in to ask directions.

Three people were in the store.  A man and woman approached the small Post Office window.  The man held a package.  The Storeowner walked up and addressed them by name, "Hello John. Good morning Mrs. Cooper."

I was stunned. My casualty's next-of-kin's name was John Cooper!

I hesitated, then stepped forward and said, "I beg your pardon.  Are you Mr. and Mrs. John Copper of (address.)

The father looked at me-I was in uniform-and then, shaking, bent at the waist, and vomited.  His wife looked horrified at him and then at me.  Understanding came into her eyes and she collapsed in slow motion. I think I caught her before she hit the floor.

The owner took a bottle of whiskey out of a drawer and handed it to Mr. Cooper who drank.  I answered their questions for a few minutes.  Then I drove them home in my staff car. The storeowner locked the store and followed in their truck. We stayed an hour or so until the family began arriving.

I returned the storeowner to his business.  He thanked me and said, "Mister, I wouldn't have your job for a million dollars."  I shook his hand and said; "Neither would I."

I vaguely remember the drive back to Norfolk.  Violating about five Marine Corps regulations, I drove the staff car straight to my house.  I sat with my family while they ate dinner, went into the den, closed the door, and sat there all night, alone.

My Marines steered clear of me for days. I had made my first death notification.

THE FUNERALS

Weeks passed with more notifications and more funerals. I borrowed Marines from the local Marine Corps Reserve and taught them to conduct a military funeral: how to carry a casket, how to fire the volleys and how to fold the flag.

When I presented the flag to the mother, wife, or father, I always said, "All Marines share in your grief." I had been instructed to say, "On behalf of a grateful nation." I didn't think the nation was grateful, so I didn't say that.

Sometimes, my emotions got the best of me and I couldn't speak. When that happened, I just handed them the flag and touched a shoulder.  They would look at me and nod.  Once a mother said to me, "I'm so sorry you have this terrible job."  My eyes filled with tears and I leaned over and kissed her.

ANOTHER NOTIFICATION

Six weeks after my first notification, I had another.  This was a young PFC.  I drove to his mother's house.  As always, I was in uniform and driving a Marine Corps staff car.  I parked in front of the house, took a deep breath, and walked towards the house.  Suddenly the door flew open, a middle-aged woman rushed out.  She looked at me and ran across the yard, screaming "NO!  NO!  NO!  NO!"

I hesitated.  Neighbors came out.  I ran to her, grabbed her, and whispered stupid things to reassure her.  She collapsed. I picked her up and carried her into the house.  Eight or nine neighbors followed.  Ten or fifteen later, the father came in followed by ambulance personnel.  I have no recollection of leaving.

The funeral took place about two weeks later.  We went through the drill.  The mother never looked at me.  The father looked at me once and shook his head sadly.

ANOTHER NOTIFICATION

One morning, as I walked in the office, the phone was ringing.  Sergeant Jolly held the phone up and said, "You've got another one, Colonel."  I nodded, walked into my office, picked up the phone, took notes, thanked the officer making the call I have no idea why and hung up.  Jolly, who had listened, came in with a special Telephone Directory that translates telephone numbers into the person's address and place of employment.

The father of this casualty was a Longshoreman.  He lived a mile from my office.  I called the Longshoreman's Union Office and asked for the Business Manager.  He answered the phone, I told him who I was, and asked for the father's schedule.

The Business Manager asked, "Is it his son?"  I said nothing.  After a moment, he said, in a low voice, "Tom is at home today." I said, "Don't call him.  I'll take care of that."  The Business Manager said, "Aye, Aye Sir," and then explained, "Tom and I were Marines in WWII."

I got in my staff car and drove to the house. I was in uniform. I knocked and a woman in her early forties answered the door. I saw instantly that she was clueless. I asked, "Is Mr. Smith home?" She smiled pleasantly and responded, "Yes, but he's eating breakfast now. Can you come back later?" I said, "I'm sorry. It's important, I need to see him now."

She nodded, stepped back into the beach house and said, "Tom, it's for you."

A moment later, a ruddy man in his late forties, appeared at the door.  He looked at me, turned absolutely pale, steadied himself, and said, "Jesus Christ man, he's only been there three weeks!"

BURIAL AT SEA

Months passed.  More notifications and more funerals.  Then one day while I was running, Sergeant Jolly stepped outside the building and gave a loud whistle, two fingers in his mouth I never could do that and held an imaginary phone to his ear.

Another call from Headquarters Marine Corps. I took notes, said, "Got it." and hung up. I had stopped saying "Thank You" long ago.

Jolly, "Where?"

Me, "Eastern Shore of Maryland.  The father is a retired Chief Petty Officer.  His brother will accompany the body back from Vietnam."

Jolly shook his head slowly, straightened, and then said, "This time of day, it'll take three hours to get there and back.  I'll call the Naval Air Station and borrow a helicopter. And I'll have Captain Tolliver get one of his men to meet you and drive you to the Chief's home."

He did, and 40 minutes later, I was knocking on the father's door. He opened the door, looked at me, then looked at the Marine standing at parade rest beside the car, and asked, "Which one of my boys was it, Colonel?"

I stayed a couple of hours, gave him all the information, my office and home phone number and told him to call me, anytime.

He called me that evening about 2300 (11:00PM). "I've gone through my boy's papers and found his will.  He asked to be buried at sea.  Can you make that happen?" I said, "Yes I can, Chief. I can and I will."

My wife who had been listening said, "Can you do that?" I told her, "I have no idea. But I'm going to break my ass trying."

I called Lieutenant General Alpha Bowser, Commanding General, Fleet Marine Force Atlantic, at home about 2330, explained the situation, and asked, "General, can you get me a quick appointment with the Admiral at Atlantic Fleet Headquarters?" General Bowser said," George, you be there tomorrow at 0900.  He will see you.

I was and the Admiral did.  He said coldly, "How can the Navy help the Marine Corps, Colonel." I told him the story. He turned to his Chief of Staff and said, "Which is the sharpest destroyer in port?" The Chief of Staff responded with a name.

The Admiral called the ship, "Captain, you're going to do a burial at sea. You'll report to a Marine Lieutenant Colonel Goodson until this mission is completed."

He hung up, looked at me, and said, "The next time you need a ship, Colonel, call me. You don't have to sic Al Bowser on my ass." I responded, "Aye Aye, Sir" and got the h-ll out of his office.

I went to the ship and met with the Captain, Executive Officer, and the Senior Chief.  Sergeant Jolly and I trained the ship's crew for four days. Then Jolly raised a question none of us had thought of. He said, "These government caskets are air tight. How do we keep it from floating?"

All the high priced help including mesa there looking dumb. Then the Senior Chief stood and said, "Come on Jolly. I know a bar where the retired guys from World War II hang out."

They returned a couple of hours later, slightly the worst for wear, and said, "It's simple; we cut four 12" holes in the outer shell of the casket on each side and insert 300 lbs of lead in the foot end of the casket.  We can handle that, no sweat."

The day arrived. The ship and the sailors looked razor sharp. General Bowser, the Admiral, a US Senator, and a Navy Band were on board. The sealed casket was brought aboard and taken below for modification. The ship got underway to the 12-fathom depth.

The sun was hot.  The ocean flat.  The casket was brought aft and placed on a catafalque. The Chaplin spoke. The volleys were fired.  The flag was removed, folded, and I gave it to the father.  The band played "Eternal Father Strong to Save." The casket was raised slightly at the head and it slid into the sea.

The heavy casket plunged straight down about six feet. The incoming water collided with the air pockets in the outer shell. The casket stopped abruptly, rose straight out of the water about three feet, stopped, and slowly slipped back into the sea. The air bubbles rising from the sinking casket sparkled in the in the sunlight as the casket disappeared from sight forever.

The next morning I called a personal friend, Lieutenant General Oscar Peatross, at Headquarters Marine Corps and said, General, get me the f*ck out of here. I can't take this sh_t anymore." I was transferred two weeks later.

I was a good Marine but, after 17 years, I had seen too much death and too much suffering. I was used up.

Vacating the house, my family and I drove to the office in a two-car convoy. I said my goodbyes. Sergeant Jolly walked out with me.  He waved at my family, looked at me with tears in his eyes, came to attention, saluted, and said," Well Done, Colonel.  Well Done."

I felt as if I had received the Medal of Honor!

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 2, 2004, at 23:09:44 (ZULU)


brian k. sain

Brought tears to an old Marines eyes.  Yes it did.

If the good Colonel is still with us, Call him up and tell him

"Thank You"

for doing something that needed done.

Stand proud, Stand Tall

SEMPER FI

bomac Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 01:43:19 (ZULU)


The longer we fool around and the more political this becomes the less our chances for success. The idea that we have made some kind of mistake is ludicrous. Sadamn WAS a weapon of mass destruction. He taunted us that he would attack and tried to bluff with no hole card. The bastard raped women at their own weddings. Butchered babies in front of their parents who had fallen out of his favor, killed a maimed even having his own comrades hands and arms amputated to teach them a lesson. Why would anyone say this Iraq business is a mistake? We knew who he was and it makes not a thin damn whether he was in league with the other devil or not. He was a disease of humanity and should have been killed on the spot when he was dug out of his hole. Instead or arming him against Iran we should have let the Bastards all kill each other. I'll never figure out why we didn't take out all these tyrants and be done with them.

Who could have replaced them that would have been worse?

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 04:49:53 (ZULU)


Anyone in here have anything to say about Ncstar scopes? Are they any good? Also, I'm putting a bushnell 4-12x40 scope on my large ring mauser '98. The old rings were made by tilden Mfg., and were for a lyman 6x. Those rings come on/off the scope by removing the oblective and eyepiece housings, then sliding them over the tube. These WON'T work on the bushnell, but I like the adjustable bases; What do I do? The existing bases cam in on the front, and have set screws on the rear. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 10:30:09 (ZULU)


BKS,

Thank you.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 10:36:12 (ZULU)


Lt. Col. Goodson,

   May God bless you for your selfless and thoughtful acts in the commission of your duties. I'd probably have ended up eating a bullet, had I been in your shoes. I'd like to see this posting on the front page of every paper in America; maybe peop;e would pull their heads out of their asses and think about the sacrafices made by others for their freedom.

                   -Travis Morgan

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 10:46:12 (ZULU)


Spurrit, give the scope and the rings to the kigs for play things, get a picatinny rail for the mauser, some badger rings and a decent ( S&B- NXS-Zeiss) scope. You'd be a happy chappy then..

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 12:27:23 (ZULU)



Bill Bledsoe; good to hear from you again.  Glad you got back in.

Spurrit; The NC stars are not good. I don't know what your application is... but the best buy on the market is probably the WEAVER classic for lower priced scopes. The 3X9 can be head for less than $160. If you can fund it. Get the Grand Slam. The turrets are better and it has a few features that make it quite pleasant to use.

Pete is right about the bases but assuming you aren't going to spend that kind of money I'd also take a look at the steel grand slam Weaver bases if you can find one that fits the Mauser. I'm not recommending this over what Pete said by the way, just a cheaper fix that might get you by.

Bill Rogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 12:53:59 (ZULU)


Mornin' All,

Here's the link to the story 'bout Komrad Kerry in Ho Chi Minn City's museum.  

http://kerry-04.org/war/hero.php

Jim

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Lone Star, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 12:56:47 (ZULU)


Gents:   Thanks for the preyers for Monty and his parents.  Latest word is that the medicines they're trying are having a good effect. Down to one siezure a day and he was sent home on Sunday.  Spend two weeks in the hopsital.  Thanks again for all the preyers!

On another note:  been seeing on various gun boards abotu ppl asking for laod data on the 204 rounnd, saw an article in the latest Rifle Shooter mag, that IMR and Hodgden have the data listed on their web sights now.

Another shooting note:  Guy I know working with SWTG at Bragg (small arms branch) told me about the testing hes doing with 300 win mag (AP) on light armored vehicles i.e., M113s.  Wouldnt tell me a lot but said that the testing of "special" materials for the rounds worked well, sliced right through the frontal metal on the M113s thru the drivers console, seat and bounced round the inside to shread up the manicans used to simulate troops inside.  I dont know the distance, hes someone you dont ask ?s of and you listen when he talks about his job there. Is this new or already done by other branches and being finally done in the Army?

Steve S Email this member See this member's profile
Ft. Bragg Area, NC., USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 13:17:15 (ZULU)


Hey guys, Brian Sain posted some info for me a while back about this, but I wanted to remind you all that we're taking pre-orders for the stainless steel POW/MIA type bracelets that will have one of the units that Adopt A Sniper is supporting engraved on it.  The deadline for orders is August 8th and the order goes in on the 9th.

Bracelets are $20 each and a LARGE chunk of that goes to the trigger pullers overseas.

If you want pictures, email me...more info, email me.  Hurry, if you mail an order out today or tomorrow, it'll still reach me by the deadline.

www.adoptasniper.org

Thanks,

VJ

Can mail orders to me (checks fine) at:

Vaughn Johnson

RE:AAS bracelets

PO Box 301

Jefferson, WI 53549

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 15:32:51 (ZULU)


Insain;  Well ya got some tears outa this old Top.  

         Send me an email addy and I'll send you some pics o' the hog sometime.

Bell Bledsoe;  Welcome back!  Wondered about you.  Lost your email 1 or 2 computers ago.  Hope all is well.

Steve S.;  Glad little Monty is doing better.  Prayers still being transmitted.  

Got myself a really nice Loopy from Premier the other day;  A new Mk4 LR 4.5-14 x40 PR with the M1 knobs and the Gen II reticle.  It is SWEET!

Later.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
Merced, Ca., usa - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 16:18:29 (ZULU)


BKS:

Damn, son.  Damn.  I just shared that with my daughter, who's home on leave.  She just looked at me and said "well, better that than getting hit by a truck, drunk on a street corner.  At least you'll be proud of me when you close the casket."  Thank you, God.  

You be careful, amigo.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 17:59:00 (ZULU)


Spud,

  I just ordered one of those scopes a couple of days ago. How long did it take to get it? I'm trying to outfit my partner for a Scout/Sniper Match at the end of September. We don't have much time left to tune a new rifle and scope.

  I've got a Gen II, 4.5x14x50 on my .308 and a Gen I, 3.5x10x40 on a Rem LTR in .223. Great scopes, especially if you're shooting close up movers (LE distances). Both are M1 models with 1/4 min clicks. Not everyone likes the 1/4 min scopes but for precision shooting, that's what I learned on. Enjoy!

Indiansinger

Roger C. carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 21:16:31 (ZULU)


Bill Rogers, and Spud,

Feels good to be back on the DR. Thanks for the welcome. Be seeing more of me as I get back behind a rifle, and get caught up on what's new.

Best wishes for a safe return to all the troops heading to the Sand Box, and a welcome back to all returning. Thanks for your service, and sacrifices.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe Email this member See this member's profile
Outback in , KY, USA - Tuesday, August 3, 2004, at 23:20:34 (ZULU)


NEED SOME HELP

I've got a friend ( retired school teacher) who has a HUSQVARNA in 308 he thinks it's 1958 to 1963 vintage. Any ideas to what it's worth, He wants to part with it.

Gary Kaney Email this member See this member's profile
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 01:26:31 (ZULU)



Well Bill; it's kinda hard to keep on subject of guns gear and stalking with what all is going on around the world. The troops and our feeble attempts to help in some small way and our attention to the tragedy of losing our sons and daughters and the grief stricken friends we all know takes it's toll on the content that was once so pointed on the subject. The Roster has changed.  We don't seem to be in conflict quite so often and that's maybe not so entertaining but it's something I don't miss much. I get e-mail requesting information or pointers etc all the time just like the old days and that's a thing I welcome and answer when I can as I'm sure the other regulars do.  We never did settle the most important questions like who's handgun is best or does a 9mm really fill in for a .45 and other earth shaking matters. Hope you remain and help fill some of the void. We hope/pray or whatever we can that this time gets by soon and we can get back to playing and arguing with/about our hardware and reliving our "Glory Days" as one long time member so aptly put it.  We'll be here at least till Peter Lincoln quits hunting hogs and PeteR quits using VARGET. I think some of the guys are just tired, some are pissed and some are just weary or tied up with other interests. Carry on... as you were!

OH yeah about the HUSQVARNAs.  Just a few years back 400 to 500 would catch most of them. However they are bringing upwards of a thousand in some cases now. Without specific model numbers and description I would say abour $700 would be about what you would see them at Gun Shows for but they are scarce in this country. $500 is about where they trade at though and that's just a guess really.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 03:12:15 (ZULU)


Thanks Bill

The gun originally came from Wyoming, so it shows the western marks of hunting use. Which to me gives the gun character, I just might keep it for myself, That's a lie, I will keep it for myself.

Gary Kaney Email this member See this member's profile
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 10:54:15 (ZULU)


Roger that;  The ones that appeal are worth the price.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 13:17:37 (ZULU)


Gents,

Bill, good take on what's going on with the SC Roster. We ARE focused on some other items, at present. Hence, not a lot to report.

I'll be on the range tomorrow morn. AM taking my M25, so will hopefully have something to report.

Have been focused on my new "Mexlicher" lately. It's with Stan Trizonic getting photographed for an article. We should see the layout in a few months. Luckily, I have several more small ring "mexicans" tucked away for future projects. NOW, if I just had an original, magnum length, square bridge mauser I'd be in hog heaven!

Gary, get the Husky and enjoy it! It's in one of my favorite calibers...the .308!

Steve...continued prayers for Monty.

Pick up the latest Rifle Magazine. A great issue on the .416 Rigby AND the 9.3mm cartridges.  There is also a company that is making Farquharson actions!

Latest GREAT read: On the Edge of the Wild (passions and pleasures of a naturalist) by Stephen J. Bodio.

Continued prayers for our troops...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 16:55:05 (ZULU)


Untill i stop hog huntin' ha. no fear..

You know.. i can't realy fathom the media out cry on casualties among troops, i mean, sure i know its a tragedy when one of our troops are killed and i do feel it when i hear the news and i sure feel for the families and friends of the fallen, but none as far as i am aware are conscripts, all are volunteer, they all know what they are getting in to when they sign on the dotted line and to be killed in action or in a training accident or whatever is surely to be considered an occupational hazzard for a Soldier. We have moved on from the poor leadership and mass frontal assaults of War 1. More folk die due to lacking health care in the UK or heat waves in France than the casualty figures over the same period. I don't hear any of the Service personel complaining about the hazzards and all i have heard from troops ive spoken to so far is the same attitude as Joe, so why the hell don't the media cut the bull. I know I know, they want to sell air time of news papers, it just pisses me off that they focus on " Another .... .. Killed" but we hear next to nothing about the re built schools, water purification systems, the infrastructure building and all the good we are doing over there, we also don't hear anything about the victories in battle, but that just wouldn't be PC now would it. I'm sick of this WMD discussion, the doubters should go ask the kurds and the iranians who where gassed, oh we can't they are dead, how much more proof do the doubters want?

oh rant off, i know i'm preachin to the converted.

On a rifle note, i should be getting the 7x57 mauser i bought of egun through the post in a couple of days, i figure its another candidate for 9.3x62, i may put the barrel from the mauser springfield mongrel on it as getting a straight fit picatinny for the mauser will be easier. on the other hand i shouldn't be so lazy and i should machine a mount for the odd shape of the mongrel action.. either way i'll end up with a handy little piggie gun.

Not much happening over here at the mo with the Roe Deer rut, been calling and not seen any activity at all, my guess is most of it is happening at night under the moon light.

STill haven't found any Euro 260 brass..

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 20:50:55 (ZULU)


Sir Wes,

I think you got an M25 built by a friend of mine, Geoff..? I still have two...but wanting a good bolt gun now. I had to change careers, so I got hired by a local PD here. Been off training now for almost two months. 31 weeks in the basic academy, and 12 more with the FTO, but it's worth it.

Best regards,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe Email this member See this member's profile
Outback in , KY, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 00:45:31 (ZULU)


This is a MUST SEE! (As if we didn't know already)

http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/vietnam.htm

Credit goes to George Gardner who posted it on the "Hide."

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 02:35:28 (ZULU)


Is that the Husky with the FN action, and if so, would an FN (Supreme?) of the same vintage go for about the same?  I am getting one from the local pawn shop for $350 - in .270.  Thinking of rebarreling it to .308.  Already have one in .30-06.  Great rifles.  

P. M. Hayden Email this member See this member's profile
USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 03:36:35 (ZULU)


Gents,

Bill, give Brian Sain or Mike Miller a holler. They're "the men" in

police tactical/designated marksmen circles. Just what is politically correct for you guys to be called now?

What you get will depend on how much the department is willing to spend. The Remington PSS performs well, as do the older Varmint Specials in .308. Personally, I'm not a fan of the PSS stock, but that's my preference. You could opt for the Winch M70 with the Marksman style stock. I like it.

Brian, is using a AI 20" .308, I believe, and likes it. Mike...well, he'll shoot anything WELL.

Lot's of options for you.

Piggy Pete, looks like we are safe for awhile, as you're NOT giving up pig hunting anytime soon...:-)

Agree with your take on casualties. No one wants to see anyone hurt or killed, but it goes with the territory. As you noted none are conscripts.

As noted: FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!!!

We are too plugged in, when we get bombarded by the media, etc., on these issues. More people died in car accidents, swimming pools, ladders/falls last year than our current casualty levels. That's getting lost somewhere. What about the "if it saves one life" crowd?

They should want to ban everything...

Media needs to compare these things rather than sensationalize them.

M25 tomorrow...will report results upon return.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 06:26:28 (ZULU)


Pete,

   BITE ME!!! If you wanna buy a coupla overpriced horses, I'll be happy to drop that much cash; until then, I'll settle for a little better than good enough; it gets me by until I find a phenominal deal on a good scope. I HATE picatinny rails! I'm also not gonna put heat shields, flash suppressors, naked pictures of relatives, or any other unecessary crap on my rifle, I just make 'em shoot tight up to 300 yds., as I don't have any need to shoot a button off someone's shirt at 800 yds.!

                     

        -That gawdamn hick that don't know nuthin'

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 07:44:06 (ZULU)


Rem. PSS--$750

Howa 1500--$420

Howa shoots one-hole groups.

$330 buys a LOT of powder.  I love it when someone asks "Whatcha got there?" and see the look on their face when I tell them what it is.  Then see it when what they think is a plumbing tool bangs out X's at a thousand yards.  

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 12:07:26 (ZULU)


Sir Wes,

"Just what is politically correct for you guys to be called now?"

PC or not, SNIPER is the term the vast majority of us use and prefer to be called...  Too many guys in white in an A/C office worried about a word....a word so improperly used by the media that anyone with a handgun on the freeway is a 'sniper' (ie. OHIO).

NOT!

An honest question, and nothing against you Wes, but that topic roasts my butt when I get going about the news media.

I'm sure most here can relate.

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 12:54:30 (ZULU)


Well gang as of 1100 Eastern time this morning I'll be like Chuck and have another member of the family I can be more proud of. Sarge Jr has been with the 10th Mountain since January and now my daughter-in-law, Mrs. Sarge Jr if you would, will graduate from BASIC TRAINING at Ft. Jackson S.C. at 1100  this morning! Sarge Jr is there seeing her graduate...various things kept us from attending.

Tomorrow she heads for...FT. SAM HOUSTON to begin her AIT as a Medic! Chuck, I'll send you an address as soon as I have one, we will be coming down for her graduation there in mid-December. We'll talk more on that later!

Have a GREAT DAY group I will!!! :-)

A VERY Proud Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 13:04:35 (ZULU)


Spurrt, Clam down junior. You asked for a suggestion and Pete gave you one. Try either Bushnell 3200 Elite or a Tasc SS from SWFA...

Dirty Steve, OUt

Steve Dickerson Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 14:30:35 (ZULU)


Okay Guys, I'm going to ask one of those really dumb questions I spoke of. Since most of my training has been in LE-type precision shooting, I've never been introduced to the joys of KIMS. I'm going to face KIMS for the first time in a Scout/Sniper match at the end of September. I have an idea of what KIMS are and what they (or it) involves, but anyone who can clue me in on the subject will be blessed with soft warm winds, sunny days and full body searches by the most beautiful federal officers available.

What?? It works for the towel-heads doesn't it?? 70 Virgins ????

Excuse me.... Islamic Jihadists.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 14:50:23 (ZULU)



Indiansinger

KIMS games exercise memory skills under pressure.

COPS are often VERY, VERY good at it.  Your training and day-to-day job stresses the skill in many ways.

Don't sweat it.

Sarge....you are gonna have a medic daughter.... and you are an RN?

HA...should make for some very interesting table talk... will she have the guts to call you a 'skirt' (traditional nickname medics have for nurses) ?

<ducking for cover...>

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 14:56:09 (ZULU)


Spurrit, i could ask " then what the hell are you doing on here then?"

First of the Picatinny rail is the most flexible ( as in multi options) stable (as in rigid) and sensible way,( as in it won't let you down) when coupled with a decent set of matching rings, to mount a scope on a rifle. You must be the minority here in not liking the picatinny, I and i would suppose the rest of the guys here happent to think there is something neat about a one piece rail mated to the top of a reciever, now i agree with you for the most part on flash suppressors and muzzle breaks for that matter ( unless we are talking moderators)don't like the flimmer band's either, and did i ever tell the story about the boss of VW ( or was it Audi) who had his wifes face engraved on his Blaser? so no pictures of family for me either.

But if you want to call a set of badger rings and a rail with a decent scope attached un nessecary crap then your road to shooting wisdom will be a long one. What i was tryinmg to do was save you from putting any crap on your stick, been there done that, buddy unless you find a buyer for them race horses you are too poor to only buy good enough, we usd to have a sign on the wall in the armourers shop " That 'll do, will not do here" its a good motto when shopping for optics and mounting eqpt.

It beats me why some one would spend perhaps a great deal of money on a decent rifle and then hand a cheap set of mounts and scope on it, now i don't know what stick you have, but if its a factory Remchester then you should be expecting to spend at least 2/3 of the over all budget on the scope and mounts and 1/3 on the stick. if you go Howa or Savage then you have more cash for the optics, if we are talking a custom stick then the optics will probably cost at least as much as the rifle.

Hell your wouldn't fork out for a porsche and then be so tight as to only tread it with continental re-moulds set on wheels borrowed from a hyundai.

Now when you mount all the cheap stuff on your stick and then get pissed off with wandering zeroes and mounts shooting loose, and you see the guys with good kit shooting buttons of a shirt at 800, the bug will bite, you will be hooked and you will wonder why you wasted money on crap to start with. when that happens remember where you heared the wisdom first.

If you realy are strapped for cash, look at a Nikkon scope, a Prem ret Leupold would be better, leupold or warne maxima 2 piece weaver base ( steel!) and maybe some burris rings.

300 yards soon gets boring when the range is 1000 long.

I bet within 3 years you have a picatinny rail.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 18:10:56 (ZULU)



SPURRIT: Pic rail dude. Versatile. What Pete said. Warnes are nice if ya want sleeker but tough.

VJ: Wes is cool. As in "Has his own personal A/A/S platoon cool".

KIMS GAMES - I've got a pornographic memory.

72 Virgins - I guess that's a start.

Dip me in chocolate and throw me to the lesbians ...

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 18:41:41 (ZULU)


Hey Spurrit,

Why would you want an ATTACHMENT point that is ADJUSTABLE on a device to deliver PRECISION fire with a large ring MAUSER???

John

PS, get the burr outta your saddle, you got what ya asked for, ya just disagree with the answer.

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 19:33:34 (ZULU)


medicjim, doubt she'd do that! She knows that for 20 years before I became a nurse I was one of Uncles medics! Interesting conversations??? You ain't heard nothin! Me being an ICU nusre and my daughter and son-in-law BOTH being monitor techs in the same ICU...talk about conversations! AND then you add my wife works in the same hospital, although in a non-medical position! Sheesh!!

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 19:47:43 (ZULU)


BK, if Wes has his own platoon, then he is beyond cool....pushing downright cold...

As for 72 virgins, I believe that is just a busy morning in Port Arthur.

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 20:00:00 (ZULU)


Well, if someone was to ask me, "what do you prefer to be called, Sniper? Long-range shooter? Baby killer? (sorry, still in rant mode about the long-haird, dope crazed, maggot-infested scumbag hippie faggot.....I get wound up for days when that comes back) I just tell them I like to be called Chuck.

Spend at least as much on the glass part as you do on the metal part. Except (doncha like the "excepts"?) the Bushnell Elites.  The 10X mildot 3200 is still cooking right along.  Boudicca shot it at the 1000k match at waco the other day.  The loads were running outta steam out of the 20" Howa due to atmospheric conditions (30.00 Hg, 95% humidityand only 600 ft ASL) but they were all hitting the target. Well, at least after she discovered that someone (?) left his...uh, her 500 yd dope dialled in.  She had 1300 yads dialled in until we got her down, then she was doing ok.  You can dial the Bushie up to 1k and back to 100 all day long, and it's spot on.  Anything else, Loopie or batter.  I got a bunch of Tasco's and Redfield scopes wedging my loading bench away from the wall.  Best use for them.

KIMS....we use it all the time. ya got mebbe 3-5 seconds when walking into a family disturbance to figure out if it's hostile, are there weapons, how many potential adversaries, and do I have a retreat path. You can do this at home, kids.  Have mom empty her purse on the kitchen table.  Give yourself 30 seconds, then walk away  and write down what you remember that evening.  That's what I did at home.  Helpful hint: DO NOT LAUGH, SNICKER, OR MAKE COMMENTS ON WHAT IS IN THE PURSE. This will result in possible serious injury.  Remember, she's still holding the purse.  

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Anto, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 20:01:07 (ZULU)


Ain't NO virgins HERE ... whatchutalkin''bout fool.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 20:43:27 (ZULU)


Hey Brian, you know why there are no Cajun's on the Enterprise( star trek) ? cus its in the future dood !! ha..

I still have a little collection of bits n pieces for you, but i am still waitin on the Brit Para Berret (and one for Joe S too).

You talkin about the warne rings? they are shit, wont return to zero, the damn threads strip and the bloody ring half match up badly. I've been though every ring under the sun ( No Brian, not that kind, no chockolate starfish for me) and the only ones i trust 100% are Badger.

I forgot Spurrit mentioned a large ring mauser, don't knock the mausers though ive seen some damn accurate ones, Spurrit tell us a bit about the mauser, i recently aquired a shed load of firearms bits and there are loads of mounts n things for mausers, Suhler einhak mounts, swing off mounts from Apple (EAW) also mounts that go on the barrel all sorts of custom early 20th century stuff.

Same goes for all you guys, you have a need for any mauser-custom mount, historical sort of stuff let me know, ive got boxes of all sorts, lots of stuff for merkels, sauers, and other euro shot guns, sight blocks barrel bands, express sights all sorts of crap, i need to go through it all and sort it out, same same for the air gun spares i have, also got box full, mostly weihrauch and daisy but some anschutz. need anything just ask and i'll have a look.

I dunno you Yanks and your love for crap glass, damn i though Africa was the dark continent, but i figure Europe must be and thats the reason we have better glass to help us see..

The Brits call the sniper cops " Marksmen" , Sniper is striktly a Military term. Most Army units always had a few designated marksmen but they wheren't called that officialy , dead eyed dick, Bill( Wilhelm) Tell, or just platoon best shot was the name. When we had the L1A1 the best shot usualy managed to scrounge a top cover with a scope mount for the rifle and often a Nikko Sterling or a Pecar scope , usualy a 6x purchased privately or from company/platoon/LAD funds would be attached, when we got the L85A1 the best shot usualy got the LSW L86A1, which was supposed to be the squad LMG, but due to the longer and heavier barrel and the Bipod it could be used as a DM weapon. I put my Nikko Sterling 6x on to my LSW by machining the rings to fit the mount part of the SUSAT. I remember getting a bollocking for non issue kit from some dick, but most thought it was a good idea.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 21:41:08 (ZULU)



I am setting up to reload 38 special for my new shorty J-frame.  Looking for a recommendation on where to get cast bullets...wadcutters, heavy.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 6, 2004, at 00:34:38 (ZULU)



Everyone who reads here should be aware that this site is NOT the place to find out what's the most economical (read "cheap") gear to get by with. We would be doing much harm to the art of long range shooting if we allowed that anything will do the job. What you get here is the best idea's we've had over the past 8 years or so and what the general opinion of those who post here have agreed upon. Some make a living and some fight for our freedom with the knowledge they may have gained here and that's not just Americans, but it's more of a gathering of international riflemen that resembles in some part a brotherhood of shooters and many or at least some are accomplished amateurs.  *(the word  means those who do something for pleasure rather than financial game and does not imply they don't reach even farther toward the state of the art than those who work professionally). There is certain gear that is notable in performance and reliability and if you ask around here that will be the normal recommendation you will receive.  We don't alway agree on what's the best but most of us know the minimum standards we've all agreed on and seldom will we recommend anything that doesn't come up to at least minimum specs.

A Sniper rifle usually is something that will print .5MOA at or near at least 1000 yards. The caliber is usually something that will handle itself in a brisk wind and still deliver a payload that's effective for the conditions. The scope will be at least 10power and have adjustable objective that will adjust for parallex and elevation, windage and be repeatable on all adjustments to within 1/4 moa. It is usually light enough for one man to carry and crawl with and rugged enough to withstand climate variations just about anywhere in the world and it's mounts are strong enough to be at least as dependable as the scope adjustments.

To ask us to recommend anything less would not be in keeping with the Spirit of the site.  There are many hunting forums and other shooting general interest sites where you can get the fairy tale versions of what's really great in the Walmart counter but this is not the place. We don't all, always use the best or most expensive gear and our needs vary in the seriousness of what we deploy the rifles for. But don't ask us to lower the standards to keep with your pocket book. It won't happen.  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 6, 2004, at 03:02:48 (ZULU)


MedicJim,

>>>>Looking for a recommendation on where to get cast bullets...<<<

Oregon Trail Bullet Company is a good source. They have their own lead/silver recipe which makes for a super hard alloy. There are other commercial companies but this is certainly one of the better ones.

Their web site is http://www.laser-cast.com . However, I tried it a while ago and couldn't get in....for whatever reason.  

Midway carries Laser-Cast as well. Not sure how competitive the prices are.

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 03:48:31 (ZULU)


Gents,

Vaugn, thanks for your take on what we call "snipers". Like you, I do a slow burn every time the media usesthe term to descibe anyone.

I am helping support a sniper unit from Oregon. Know some personally. Good lads, all. Like everyone else, they need whatever they can get. Course they are a bit weird, speaking that odd Army Lingo and wearing them damn berets...

Brian, donation inbound for AAS program. This from a retired USMC Lt. Col. I explained the programs and he wrote me a check. God, if everything was that easy.

Sarge, congrats on your daughters graduation. Bet you are one proud papa. Sounds like service to our country runs in the family.

BRogers, isn't "beautiful federal officers" a mutually exclusive term?

Picatiny rails (M1913): I like'em. Specially the Badger Ordinance items. Return to zero is good an most of them. Army takes the Luppie M3 on and off to install night vision(PVS-10) scopes. Nice set up. Used oneabout a year and one half ago. Compliments of our Oregon Snipers! That M24 is a good system, but I'll stump for the M40 series for serious work.

Sad day at Oregon State Penitentiary. Dirty staff had brought in a cell phone and charger,  given it to the inmates. Also, a Schrade hunting knife with gut-hook. Large amount of white powder, as well.

Tested positive as cocaine. State police had to come weigh it...

One of our Corporals is on leave pending investigation.

My M25 is tracking fairly well. More work with it is indicated. Need more trigger time. Lack of  practice is definetely showing.

Weight training starts this next week...

More, as the story unfolds...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 05:37:44 (ZULU)


Gents,

Vaugn, thanks for your take on what we call "snipers". Like you, I do a slow burn every time the media usesthe term to descibe anyone.

I am helping support a sniper unit from Oregon. Know some personally. Good lads, all. Like everyone else, they need whatever they can get. Course they are a bit weird, speaking that odd Army Lingo and wearing them damn berets...

Brian, donation inbound for AAS program. This from a retired USMC Lt. Col. I explained the programs and he wrote me a check. God, if everything was that easy.

Sarge, congrats on your daughters graduation. Bet you are one proud papa. Sounds like service to our country runs in the family.

BRogers, isn't "beautiful federal officers" a mutually exclusive term?

Picatiny rails (M1913): I like'em. Specially the Badger Ordinance items. Return to zero is good an most of them. Army takes the Luppie M3 on and off to install night vision(PVS-10) scopes. Nice set up. Used oneabout a year and one half ago. Compliments of our Oregon Snipers! That M24 is a good system, but I'll stump for the M40 series for serious work.

Sad day at Oregon State Penitentiary. Dirty staff had brought in a cell phone and charger,  given it to the inmates. Also, a Schrade hunting knife with gut-hook. Large amount of white powder, as well.

Tested positive as cocaine. State police had to come weigh it...

One of our Corporals is on leave pending investigation.

My M25 is tracking fairly well. More work with it is indicated. Need more trigger time. Lack of  practice is definetely showing.

Weight training starts this next week...

More, as the story unfolds...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 05:37:45 (ZULU)


"beautiful Federal Officers".... Hum might be coded some way. I guess you'll have to ask the Singer what he means for sure...:)

I'm trying to remember if I ever saw one......!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 6, 2004, at 13:01:12 (ZULU)


Okay, Okay,

If you'll re-read my post, it says "the most beautiful federal agents AVAILABLE" !!!! I forgot to add "gender optional".  :-)

Another question might be where are the "Jihadists" going to find that many Virgins. Around this part of the country, we had to go all the way down to the 4th grade to find more than three in any classroom.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 13:29:32 (ZULU)


I know of one in the Chicago FBI office! Absolutely fine. I keep hopin she'll wanta frisk me. :)

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 13:39:07 (ZULU)


Mornin' all,

A buddy on mine sent this to me I thought I'd share it with the list. As far as I'm concerned this festering boil on American society's butt should put out of his misery.  On second thought he should be air dropped into Afghanistan so he could live with Osoma and his harem of goats, and, as a token of peace and friendship to his friend and benefactor he should take a thousand hecatomb of the best ferial hogs Texas and Arkansas has to offer.

http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/moore.htm

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint sharp,

Jim McNabb

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Texas, USA - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 13:59:47 (ZULU)



Guess I don't know what the fella is really looking for, as far as the rings go. Figured he just wanted a solid set or whatever and would not be taking them off and on Pete. Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances. Lead a horse to water and all that ...

Who the hell knows ? ... I got Marty's shit on all of mine. He's a good man. He and Jorge (WhoreHey) both.

Like 'em a lot.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 6, 2004, at 14:55:51 (ZULU)


IndianSinger;

Sorry it took awhile to get back to you on the scope question.

If you ordered from Premier, you should have it in about a week.  They are very good about that sort of thing.  As well as everything else.

Anybody seen one of their new Spider Web Spotters yet?  Sure look tasty.  Let me know what ya think.  Gotta sell some stuff and save my nickels, but I "need" a new serious spotting scope.

Take care, people.

DID I HEAR "SKIRT"!?

Spud (M/Sgt USMC ret.)  Now a R. N!

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
Merced, Ca., usa - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 16:50:15 (ZULU)


lol..

Easy Spud...I was just kidding.

I have an immense amount of respect for RNs, I would much rather deal with the street types than put up with all the BS you folks get from the docs...

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 6, 2004, at 17:24:32 (ZULU)


Damn, i missed out on a HS Precision HTR in 300 win mag on egun today, i was bid over by 10 damn euros, had made plans to caniblise the thing as a donour for other projects and sales..

Spoke to JR and Jon B today, seems JR has been visiting this week, they both have a bad back.. hang on, they are in the land of the black faced sheep, both have a bad back, and Jon is welsh, now that sounds dodgey to me, talkin guns my ass, they been talking sheep shaggin and wellies.. Ha !

good to talk to you Gents !! only joking.

Spurrit, didn't mean any disrespect ok buddy, just want you to not have to make the same mistakes as many of us here have.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 17:53:55 (ZULU)


MedicJim;

I figured you were just funnin'.  Thought it was pretty funny, actually.

I became an RN after retiring from the Corps in '91.  Went to school and got my CNA, LVN, and then RN.  Once I got my licenses, I worked part time as a CNA and LVN as I was going through.  Worked in a lot of different areas for short periods of time.  Enough to find what suited me.  I am a R.N., Community Health Nurse for the Co. PH Dept.  I work with Adult Services and help the In Home Service Support SWs with their case mgnt.  I also do APS.  We have quite a good rapport with the local EMS and city and Co. L.E.  We don't waste their time.  They appreciate it.

But it amazes me how bad some people treat their so-called loved-ones...

Funny thing is their is no requirement in this Co. for a medical type person to be involved in these APS calls.  But since I was the first one in this position to volunteer, I've got the APS folks spoiled.  Works out pretty well.  

I'd have to laugh if I ever got called a "Skirt", though.  Long moustache, 6'1", 250 lbs, (fat), Kanji tat on L forearm that my son wore on his back, ("One's Own Decision" and the first character is "Dan" which is short for Daniel, my son. Lost him 34 mos. ago.)  Then the right forearm  has a Celtic cross as designed by my second son with Runes in the circle.  But they never see the Viking runes that are on my R Delt that says "Father Forever".  I get some looks, but then they find out I'm serious.  HA!

Long-winded.  Sorry.  Just thought it was too funny to ignore.

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
Merced, Ca., usa - Friday, August 6, 2004, at 17:59:28 (ZULU)


Spud, sorry about your son.  I've got a 2 year old daughter...nuff said.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 6, 2004, at 18:20:52 (ZULU)


Gents,

Got done cleaning my M25 this evening, after putting 50 rounds through it Thursday. Cleaned the barrel, chamber, gas system. NOW I know why I like bolt guns so much. Cleaning from the muzzle with the guide in place is a bitch. Still, I like the big thing.

The zero and cam on the M3 6X matched my rifles' trajectory to 600 yards. Extrapolated some data from a couple different loads. They all track very closely to 600 yards. Probably the farthest I'll ever shoot a the gas gun.

My S&W M57 shot well...I didn't. Likes WW 296 and 210 gr. Speer Gold Dots. Love the .41 Mag. Steve, my hunting partner and I both have one. Good thing, well use them while we scout the coast range for elk. Don't know about you folks, but I NEVER go into the woods without a firearm. Don't carry it for the critters...

All for now...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 07:40:50 (ZULU)


PISSY, PISSY! Geeze, you guys get WOUND when you get called on an answer that's completely outside the scope of the question! ANYWAYS, Thx to Pete, and, um, that other guy that suggested the bushy and the Tasco.

  BTW, I don't claim to be a sniper, or whatever's "PC" this week. I'm a hunter and professional guide that likes to shut up the blowhards in camp with $1500 weatherby boat paddles by betting w/them and outshooting them. I also have a wife, kid, and bills. I don't belong to a shooting club, hunting club, or any "society" shit. I try to make sure, as I said before, that I can be EXTREMELY accurate out to about 300 yds or so. I rarely shoot game any further out than that, and will only guide a very few people who do, and that's because they're good enough hunters/shooters that I'm just there to gut what they kill!

   So, if anyone has any NON-pickatitty suggestions that I can do for a few hundred, (preferably less)please forward them to me.

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 12:57:15 (ZULU)


Mornin,

Anyone know how or if you can determine a Mod. 29's age by serial #?

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 13:03:43 (ZULU)


Thanks Spud, I got an e-mail notice from Premier yesterday that the scope was on the way. My partner was considering other scopes, most of which didn't have the quality and reputation of the Leupold Mk 4. I finally convinced him that spending the money now for a good scope will eventually save him money later when he has to replace a cheaper "door stop". I told him that he may change rifles from time to time but the scope he could stick with. His problem is that his pay as a Deputy Sheriff doesn't leave him with a lot of "disposable income".

Indiansinger

 

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 13:35:24 (ZULU)


Hey, Spurrit.  This is the "um, other guy".  While it might sound like poor relations heresy, I've found that more expensive is not always the best thing.  I've been using Weaver bases and Millet rings on all my rifles for years.  Never had a single problem with breakage or loosening, as long as they are put on correctly.  $50 for rings and bases, $189.95 for the Elite 3200 by Tasco.  $250 for the whole shebang.  My Savage (and previously the 20" Howa) rides in the trunk of my patrol car, sometimes in a soft case, sometimes not, and I've never had a zero problem.  I used to carry it and/or the AR in the front seat, but I got tired of answering dumbasses who kept asking me "Wow, they let you guys have rifles?  Why?"  sheesh....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 15:38:35 (ZULU)


Bruce Robinson: Could you please provide the contact data for your "Goodies for Grunts" program and "Jerky by Art". Making an info pack to my e-mail list and want to give them a chance to donate, too.

To all that are helping our servicemen: KODO'S

Have a Rant I'm working on...hate to rant, but if I don't convey this to someone I'm gonna bust.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 18:17:41 (ZULU)


Hey Spurrit

 Loopy rings and bases have been working just fine for me for years,never had any problems withem. I just took a nikon 4.5-14 buckmaster($235) off my tactical rifle and replaced it with a Premier Reticles gen2 ($640). To tell the truth I liked the Nikon a lot better if it had mildots the Premier would be in the spare gear rack and the Nikon would be on my stick! Nikon had larger exit pupil better clarity and better eye relief. I also had a Tasco World class which served me very well for fourteen years of extremely tough hunting conditions, it stood up to well over a thousand rounds and still functions perfectly today. YOU DONT HAVE TO GO BROKE FOR GREAT HUNTING GEAR! Contrary to popular belief you cant purchase skill, and no amount of high dollar gear will make the shot for you!

 Now that I got that out of the way please note that I said GREAT HUNTING GEAR. I am not a Sniper I am a civilian rifleman, if my gear ever fails to deliver at the critical moment I will be pissed but I will most likely survive, and it wont cost the lives of others. We are talking apples and oranges. I will never jump out of a helicopter with my rifle, or from a moving humvee. The professional snipers weapons systems must be consideably harder, and more durable than the average hunting or competion stick. This is why they demand and will accept only the things they know they can count on in any conditions.

Later

P.S.  DEATH TO HAJI

Robert Adcock Email this member See this member's profile
East, TX, - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 18:48:44 (ZULU)


  It's true that the most expensive equipment doesn't always equate to good marksmanship. There are more expensive scopes out there that don't necessarily mean better stuff. For tactical marksmanship and competition, what ever works best is what you want. I've got a Weaver V-24 on one rifle and for up and down range shooting, it's good. But it doesn't have a mil-dot reticle for range estimation. Granted, there are tons of "toys" out there that can range a target but with the kind of luck I have, 50 miles from nowhere, my batteries would die... all of them. That doesn't mean I wouldn't break my Mil-dot master too. So then we fall back to the old math formula that even the "bone-heads" like me can learn.

  A Gen II Premier reticle in a good scope makes either "real world" or competition range finding a bit more reliable than electronics, as far as durability is concerned. Understand that I've never been a military sniper and I was only hired as a LE sniper for a small regional airport SWAT Team that never materialized because the Chief was called up for the "Guard".

  But I have done the training for LE work and elementary training for the military job. I do a lot of shooting in different conditions to stay sharp, and my friend and I intend to do a lot of competitions around this part of the country. We will most likely compete against experienced professionals from both worlds. Having things simplified will prevent this "old fart" from having to hump too much gear, perhaps speed the process, and, with the Gen II, make range estimation a bit more accurate.

  Badger rings and bases are great, but I too have had good luck with Leupold rings and bases. I like the Leupold Mk 4 from Premier because I learned to use it first. It doesn't mean I can't learn to use something else, but if it ain't broke, why try to fix it?

  I agree, throwing money at a problem won't fix anything unless you use it wisely, and have the skill to use it in the first place. Each of us has a set-up that works. It doesn't necessarily make one better than the other.

  For example, I've been building muzzle-loading rifles since the late 70's. I put good parts in them and a lot of effort. I had a custom rifle at a match once in West Virginia, shooting from the bench. I thought I was doing a pretty good job until a guy walked up beside me and shot my socks off with a CVA Kentucky rifle kit gun, off-hand. His rifle was often thought to be the biggest piece of... well, they were cheap!!! So I learned that lesson a long time ago, and even taught that lesson to others from time to time. It's fun. I out-shot a guy who was shooting a Robar SR-90 at 700 yrds with a rifle made by a friend in California. He paid $5,000 +/- for his, plus his scope and I had about $1500 in mine max. But I'm preaching to the choir aren't I !!

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 21:35:56 (ZULU)


Brian,

   Thanks for passing that on. Sat with a friend of mine the other day, listened to him recall holding up his Col. as he bled out abdominally. Man went from wanting his eyeglasses to Lords Prayer and back again. God help me if I ever for one moment forget the sacrifice our people have and are making...

 Have a nice stick coming next week and can't wait!! I get to try the AICS stock and NXS scope for the first time.

 Later,

    'Two Door'

Bill 'Two Door' Email this member See this member's profile
Goodview, va, USA - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 22:40:34 (ZULU)


JIM MC nabb

Never mind about what i wanted to say about scary j. kerry. I just wanted to reach through the monitor and strangle that piece of shit for a human being, Ain't saying no more

Gary Kaney Email this member See this member's profile
N.W., ILL, - Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 23:03:56 (ZULU)


On the cover of August Police mag there is a SWAT sniper with a rifle with a mussle brake that I do not recognize.Anyone see it and know whose it is. Charlie

Charlie Mitzelfeld Email this member See this member's profile
Ann Arbor,, MI, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 02:31:38 (ZULU)


Robert and Charles,

   Thanks alot, guys, it's refreshing to hear from someone who doesn't brag about the price of their scope in the same breath that they show it to you. There's NO WAY IN HELL I'm spending $450 or more for a SCOPE! Hell, I can buy several good rifles at the hock shop for that! Well, okay, 2 of them and some ammo.

   Anyways, if there's anyone else out there that doesn't own microsoft that has a used scope (I like 4 or 6-12 or 14x50 or 60) or just more good advice, I'd appreciate it.

   BTW, guys, not to bitch about the pic rails again, but I don't need my rifle to be versatile, I just want it to do what it's built to do. Being a hunter/guide/rancher, I have guns that are job specific. My henry .22 is my everyday gun, my '94 is my saddle gun, and the mauser is my long range rifle. I have never had to return fire on a coyote, but the mini-14 works very well for aprehending poachers. (I guide on big ranches in the mtn states)

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 03:43:44 (ZULU)



SPURRIT: Walmart sells scopes and stuff.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 04:21:49 (ZULU)


I believe I have failed to convey a point here somewhere.

Spurrit; how much does your saddle cost?

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 04:47:10 (ZULU)


Brogers,

   I ride expensive saddles that retain their value; ever tried to re-sell a scope for it's actual value?

   Right now, I'm riding a McCall that's used, but worth over a grand. I paid $425. I've said it about 3 times now, though, that my rifle is not there to save my life, it's not for counter terrorsim, it's for killing FUCKING ANIMALS!!! My saddle, however WILL save my life; although, considering the size of my horse, no MATTER how strong the saddle, I still wouldn't rope an elephant!

THINK ABOUT IT !

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 05:50:45 (ZULU)



Brian;  hear hear

Brogers; you did.

Here we gooooooo!!!!

Joe Ducos Email this member See this member's profile
Turlock, CA, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 07:40:02 (ZULU)



SPURRIT:

Most of the guys here know their rifles better than they know their old ladies.

The type of guys you mentioned ... that you would only have to gut their game ... lots of those guys here. Most are real men and wouldn't let you clean their game either. Lots of veterans.

We have cowboys and cowboy shooters, coyote hunters, Brit pig/deer hunters, cop snipers, military snipers, even the commanding officer of the US Army Shooting team. I really could go on and on and to say they are intimate with their rifles and scopes is an understatement. Now and again, the manufacturers of rifles and gear will stop in to visit so you never really know who you are talking too. Low key bunch. No chest beating although some have every credential to do so.

For your hunting needs, get a good Leupold Vari X or Burris and mounts (lifetime guarantee) somewhere and call it good.

Those here have as many hunting rifles as they do tactical rifles.

But for some of us here at this site ... our rifles are pretty much our "saddle" and we may have to ride that bitch home so ... most of us have been there done that on the mount thing.

Stick around. Maybe we can all learn a trick or too from one another. Not really a hunting site per sey, although it does get discussed often.

We're all getting older though and don't suffer dickheads very well anymore.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 12:21:00 (ZULU)


brian k. sain - "SPURRIT: Walmart sells scopes and stuff."

Good point.  Don't know why no one else ever brought it up.

I'm gonna sell all my high priced shit and replace it all and invest the savings in municipal bonds......................

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 12:47:33 (ZULU)


Spurrit.  I've been on this site since 1996 or so and seen them come and go..  Heres some advice.

1)  Ask.

2)  Listen.

3)  Chill out.

Keep YELLING and CUSSING and you will soon be shown the door.  

You seem to have an insecurity problem.  Leave it at the door.  No one gives a damn on how much money you spend on equipment...They're giving advice based on your questions through thier experience which in most cases is quite extensive.

Generally if you act as if this were a road house and you came in acting polite and asking for directions you will be treated well. If you come in with an attitude even our most touchy feely members will grab you by the scruff of the neck and launch ya.  

Have a beer and chill.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 15:10:08 (ZULU)


Question-finally broke down and bought a tapered Picatinny rail and the matching rings.  Does anyone have suggestions about a good cheek pad to attach to the factory stock so's I can still have a cheek weld with a scope .290 higher than the stock is made for?  Otherwise, this setup is gonna gather dust till I can pay for a McMillan stock.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 16:58:19 (ZULU)


Spuurrt, You need to relax dude. I have scopes that cost over $800 and some that cost around $200... Having said this, The nore expensive ones are better. How much better is a good question. There comes a point as with most items, a point of deminishing returns. How much better is a $1,200 scope over a $850 scope? Not that much. But when you take this down the other way. How much better is a $400 scope ove a $850 scope? Quite a bit. But a $400 scope is tremendously better than a $150 scope. A $20 socket set from Wally Werld works great for occasional use. For a shade tree mechanic a set of Craftsman or Snap on's would serve him better. The tools are made better and wont break. I know I need a new 5/8" Walmart socket. Sometimes you are paying more for a name than preformance. Take Nike shoes for example. I buy Asics (Sp)they cost less than the Nike's and are better shoes. I'm not paying for Shaq, Pippen, and so ons freaking names to be associated with the product. There are some exceptions on both side of course. Kimber pistols used to cost $300 and were better than pistols selling for over a grand. SO get a Loopie VariX-II or a Bushnell 3200/Tasco SS and be happy. I have a 15 yr old Loopie Vari-X II on a rifle I bought in Germany for $300 dollars. Stateside cost for the same rifle was $1,200. You pays your money and takes your chances. This is a buyer beware area. If you pay $4,000 to go on a nice hunting trip and you come home empty handed becuase your $200 scope went tits up. You will never buy another $200 scope for a hunting rifle.

Furthermore, You are being treated far better than other that come in here acting as you have done. Some immediatly have their account terminated.

All done ranting. I now return you to your regularly scheduled DR.

I'm in the process of building a 260 Reminton on a Savage action. I will let you all know how this turns out.

Dirty Steve, Out

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 16:58:47 (ZULU)



Gents,

I see we are "off and running", again. Will put my .02 worth in...

First, I am not a Sniper. I'm a retired Marine with a strong interest in firearms. Particularly long range rifles in a sniping context. Also, a firearms trainer for the State of Oregon. My interest is part of my job.

I'll be the first to say that there are good quality rigs available for some reasonable prices. With a little work most shoot acceptably for the average shooter on a budget. If you're not a squaded sniper have a ball. Sometimes getting those rifles to shoot can be a lot of fun.

My advice is "buy the best you can afford" and use it! You'll either want to move up to better gear or be happy with what you have. The REASON we buy top quality is CONSISTENCY. Ruggedness rates right up there, too. Rifles that need special handling because of quality/design issues are NOT for most of this crowd.

The majority of us could make do with a Remington PSS and good Luppie scope. Which is, indeed, what many departments use. The Marines build their own to get the long term ruggedness and accuracy they need. Army stumps for a factory Rem 700 variant made to their specs for the exact same reason. My own .308 has been a constant companion for a number of years and I have NEVER had the zero change. It is built on the Marine Pattern M40A1.

All said and done it comes down to the man, not the equipment. Know your equipment, practice, and gain confidence in the same.

Hope this makes sense...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 17:02:04 (ZULU)


As always, the fellas give VERY good advice. I'd trust anything they tell me.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 17:12:34 (ZULU)


Me too Jody,

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 17:18:06 (ZULU)


SPURRIT,

I'll make this as subtle as possible - Chill Dude!

This is a great bunch of folks, collectively some of the best in the world in their fields, with many "similar" shared interests.

You don't want to come into an old school pub/tavern swinging wildly, without knowing WHO the folks inside are...........

MedicJim - "Skirts?"  bet Garry loves that..... LMAO!

peteR Email this member See this member's profile
By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A.! - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 17:26:22 (ZULU)


Spurrt, damm man, never jump in with both feet unless you know what shares the pit with you.  I would give odds we can find someone here with your rifle skill level, so please just keep the tone to a low roar.

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 19:00:59 (ZULU)


You guys remember when I first hit the DR ? ... Wheeewwee. Lordy.

Wes was the only guy nice to me ... LOL

Stick around Spurrit.

Smart, experienced folks here and mostly grown ups ... 'cept for me.

... still think you need a Pic rail dude.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 19:22:31 (ZULU)


bk,

And who came up with "IN-Sain" not long after your arrival?

Yeah - The Cajun-Luge story, shit I still laugh about that one when I see marksman on roofs......

peteR Email this member See this member's profile
Big City By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A.!!! - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 19:43:40 (ZULU)


Hello folks,

Just got back home from the gorgeous Lake District, took a short break last week..Stayed with the Welshman Jon and his better half for the week, which was one of the best weeks of my life..Went out in the mornings and an evening with the rangers on their stalks for roe and sika on the commission ground, saw some good ground, some nice deer, and the folk were well above par, good people round Jon's way..Met a lot of the rangers previous at work dropping rifles off, showed them around the shops at Border, this time I got to see their work environment, and by gawd that's some cool shit they do for a living..Also did a bit of walking and a couple hours on a bike round Jon's bit, breathtaking that place, reminded me a bit of the Hills back home..Just had an all around casual good time..

Been keeping an eye on the roster as of late...You guys know I'm fairly diplomatic, eh?

Spurt,

You really need to re-evaluate whether this site is the wealth of information you are looking for, because we, well I personally am not going to tend any favours or input to some half-witted foul mouthed tirade which has been the standard and quality of your posts..

This is a very honourable crew here..You ask a question here, if you get a reply on the roster, you thank that person by handle. The people here are top quality in a lot of different factions of the way of the gun, as well as the equipment, training, and what not..So when you are making moronic remarks about what or who is crap or not, you better consider the company you are keeping..You are too easy a mark, mate..

I for one don't own expensive gear because it's expensive, I buy exactly what I need for the application, and the best quality so I only buy once..Price makes no difference here, as I'm not looking for a 'cheap' deal, looking for the correct application..I make expensive gear as well as a matter of fact, and can tell you right here now there is reason for the price tag..It's up to you what you want to spend, but not sit there and whine like a sissy that stuff is too expensive and it sucks and you've been doin this and that with cheap shit for years, because nobody really cares..Buy what you want, what you can afford, whatever, don't tell me I'm in the wrong for using picatinny rails because eh, you really don't have the faintest clue, and that's what it all boils down to..

So, shut your cakehole for a couple days, do some reading and research, and a little personal evaluation of what you are trying to gain from Sniper Country...Otherwise, keep on asking questions then going off half cocked and ign'int as per usual and get used to having your ass handed to you on a platter on a postly basis..

You are worse than the rich bastads you guide who buy the high dollar rifles for fashion, which you say you outshoot..

Spurrit, you're squattin with your spurs on here, take inventory and start over..

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 19:56:14 (ZULU)


Spurrit,

I too will offer my .02 cents for what it's worth. Your scope mounts are  one of the weak links in your system, you want the strongest that you can get, in your position, doing the kind of hunting you do I would think that this would be self-evident. The picatinny system has been proven over time to be one of the toughest. Check out the Ken Farrell base, they can be had for around $50, add Tactical Precision rings for around $60 and you have a super strong mount for around $100. As to scopes, I do not have a $1200 scope, can't afford one right now, however I do have several $400 scopes, and have in the past had several cheap WalMart specials. I truly believe that anyone who says the the cheap scopes are just as good as the more expensive ones are making that statement out of pure ignorance, not that they are ignorant, just that they have never compared a good scope to the piece of crud they are using, other than when standing in a sporting goods store that is.

I don't post here very often, mostly just lurk in the sidelines trying to learn as much as I can. As has already been said, the guys on this site have a wealth of knowledge and are more than willing to share it, but ya gotta keep it civil. If you don't like the advice you get, do your own thing, you are not out anything.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp Email this member See this member's profile
Jamestown, ND, USA - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 22:16:30 (ZULU)


When you are standing at the Sporting Goods counter in Walmart and you are holding a $100 brand X in one hand and a $300 brand Y in the other they may look the same, feel the same etc.  What you dont see is that Brand X spent 10 bucks/scope for quality control, plastic gears, cheap springs etc and Brand Y spent 30 bucks on the same items but wanted a higher level of quality.  

See...Most of these scopes are made by the same company in Japan or Taiwan etc its just that one company is willing to pay a little more for quality.  2 years down the road you find out the cheap scope wont track anymore or fogs up etc...

Just my opinion...

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 23:07:13 (ZULU)


Spurrit,

Welcome to the world of the Hawgs! Damn man, you did worse than I did on my first couple of adventures here. Buy what you can afford, use it, and learn the way the rest of us hardheads did. Man, I wasted a wheelbarrow full of money not listening to the gurus.

Sain,

I throughly recall welcoming you to the Roster with open arms. You've hurt my feelings.

Butner last weekend.....

Got the scoresheets in the mail yesterday. Dang, why do I have to wait til the 7th of 7 matches to put it all together? Sucked for two 600 and two 1000 matches on Saturday. Sucked for the 800 and 900 match on Sunday. Finally figured out the wind for the 1000 on Sunday. Why do I torture myself like this? I couldn't have even whipped JR Moore's ass last weekend, that's bad!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 23:15:35 (ZULU)


WR Moore - re: good cheek pad

Beartooth makes a nice comb raising kit with selectable size spacers and a neoprene sleeve.   Avail in black, camo and brown

Precision Reloading handles them, among others.

http://precisionreloading.com/stockguard.htm

(Page down a bit from the top)

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 23:47:44 (ZULU)



Spurrit,

Pretty reckless, dude. I am not only a guide, but an African professional hunter. My rifle is my life, and on more than one level. I would never go light in the wallet for mounts or optics for my rifles. Think of it this way, if you go to the doctor to have a growth removed, you look to him as a professional. If he unzips his instrument case and pulls out an exacto knife and some thread and a needle (the equivalent to redfield type mounts in this inferrence) to do the surgery, you would probably run for cover.

Spend the money where it counts. The mounts and scope are in all actuality much more important than the rifle they are on. Cheap mounts can be thrown off with every little bump, and if you hunt hard, your rifle will take a few licks. Nothing on the planet will take the abuse of the picatinny system with quality rings, and a somewhat reliable scope. Keep in mind that the cheapest and lowest power Zeiss Conquest is exponentially better than the best Tasco ever made, and costs about the same. I have several Mausers wearing scopes that are worth far more than what I paid for the rifle, but then again a decent Mauser can be had for under 2 bills at nearly any pawn shop, as you have pointed out.

Relax, enjoy our little bar here, have a few drinks and listen to the stories we tell. You have already gotten some excellent advice from some of our most respected patrons, what you do with it is totally up to you.

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 00:01:56 (ZULU)


Dirty Steve..Just sent you an email.  No attachments.

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 01:22:07 (ZULU)


WR Moore,

I concur with Rod. I have one of the Bear Tooth kits for my M1A.. I taped the foam in place then put the cover on to add more stability..

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 01:24:13 (ZULU)


HDR, Got it.. Thanks..

Gentlemen, A word of warning. We all know I like Stout beer. Keep this in mind Stout Beer and Godiva Belgain Dark Chocolate icecream don't go to gether..

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 01:32:49 (ZULU)


BOLT: I stand corrected. Felt like a blindfolded martial artist fending off all comers back in those days ...

PeteR: Dude, I have been called INSAIN since the first grade. Pretty accurate description dontcha think? Kids can be so cruel. lol

It was when they started with "HUSSEIN" around 1990 that I started getting defensive ...

CAJUN LUGE: Dear Lord that deal scared the hell out of me.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 02:41:27 (ZULU)


Dirty Steve,

You are a lucky man! You only went for the daily double (Guiness and Godiva). I got suckered into the trifecta (Glenlivet) by a bunch of SEALs one night in Virginia. I won 50 bucks, but spent two days with an IV in my arm to replace the fluids I lost. Never take drinking bets from swabbies when you are the last Marine standing from a 2 day drinking binge!

JR,

Do you guys make quarter ribs to fit your barrels? Got a project on the burner-custom 458 Lott with all the classic bells and whistles.

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
PSL, FL, US - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 03:56:07 (ZULU)


Spurit;  I thought and thought, I really did... All I know for sure  is... The farther north you go... the more things will eat your horses!

I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what we're talkin about but it makes as much sense as roping elephants with a $1000 saddle. I hope I followed your logic correctly but I guess you really don't need a gun, just a fast horse.  I think it has something to do with "The Cowboy Way!"  I guess I'll go think some more.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 04:22:25 (ZULU)


Ive never had a picatinny rail but plan on getting one soon they have one at Sharp Shooter Supply, with a 20 moa taper. This has gotta be more stable than my two piece base with shims. I believe they are the Ken Farrel Base that Robert Opp spoke of. If anyone has any experience with them, good or bad please let me know. Also hoping this will eliminate my eye relief problems with the GenII Premier, I cant bring it back anymore in the loopy rings cuz the bell is against the front ring. The A-5 I just ordered has adjustable stock perhaps a shorter L.O.P.  will allow me the proper eye relief.  

 Does anyone here know if there is a custom shop that can install a detachable magazine on a Savage 110.

 Oh yeah, I finally got enough time to put a few pics from SQ04 up on my website, gonna try to add more later. I put one up specially for you Chuck hope ya like it.Just click my name should take ya there. Honestly guys I'm not tryin to sell ya nuthin!!!!

                                      Later

Robert Adcock Email this member See this member's profile
Far East, Texas, - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 04:55:55 (ZULU)


WR Moore,

I will also back up the info on the Bear Tooth cheek pad, with this disclaimer...I have never used one because my stock pack works just fine and I don't need any more elevation for eye relief.

I have seen many cop snipers jump all over them like ants on a picnic lunch once they see what can be done with them.  A Basic Sniper school I assisted at a couple months ago saw half the class running out to buy them after one guy showed up with one.  Lots of different thicknesses come with it and you can do a lot with them.  For the cost, it is probably your best bet for the price.

Good luck!

On another note, had a chat the other day with a legal freak that works for the state here in WI about the Oshkosh gun grab affair.  Too early to comment, but it was being 'looked at'.  How is that for saying a whole bunch and not communicating anything??

Vaughn

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 05:04:20 (ZULU)


WR Moore,

  Another cheek rest that I've had good luck with is the one from Blackhawk Industries. It has several inserts you can use to adjust your level of sight. It's secure and easy to install. It basically is velcroed in place with several straps and the cost is somewhere around $25.- if my feable mind recalls correctly. Take a look at it.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 05:06:00 (ZULU)


Spurrit,

E-mail sent via duty roster mail. [ Subject: scope ]

Hmmmm....I'm pretty sure that a Leupold holds resell value better than 42.5 cents on the dollar; I know NightForce scopes do.

Leupold Vari X III / VX II is knee of the curve IMHO.  I've ran just about every scope and for some reason the trend seems to keep going towards the high end scopes.  I'm not a military or LEO sniper but I do pretty fair at F-class Palma, praire dog shooting, and big game hunting. Spent lots of $ on it'll get me by for now.....keep wondering what the @$*# was I thinking?!  Found it much better to spend the money up front, saves me time and money in the long run.

Hunting rifles are set up with Leupold DD base and rings, vari X III scopes. I've not had a problem with that set up for the 10 years I've been in NM.

Please enlighten me what it is about picatinny rails that you dislike so much.  I have a single rifle set up with a picatinny and in all honesty that is becaue it came on the rifle.  I have a pretty trick set of base/rings that was custom built for my F-class rifle but that configuration has some draw backs as well.

I expect that I'll be ordering several Badger rails in the very near future for a couple of my rifles.  Murphy's law dictates that a scope will fail at the most inopportune time.....beginning of hunt, during 900 yard course of fire....you get the idea.  Picatinny rail allows you to pull your spare scope, pre mounted and zeroed, out of a hard sided case and continue on.  Yes, I do take a spare scope and no it is not a cheap one.

I've used the fact that DD rings and bases did not allow for such ease of replacing scope to just buy another whole rifle/scope to take as a back up rifle! :-)  In retrospect, I think the picatinny rail solution would have been a better answer!

JR,

You get my last e-mail with the updated barrel information?

FCS Email this member See this member's profile
Central , NM, - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 06:05:09 (ZULU)



Thanks for the info on the cheekrest.  I'm trying to stay away from stockpacks-the rifle weighs enough right now, thank you very much. Also, velcro is not your friend.  Trust me on this!

Picatinny rail & rings I bought were Smith Enterprises.  The rail uses different metal than Badger and can be made thinner for the same strength.  The back end of the rail doesn't cause nosebleeds just looking at it.

Farrell bases- I've got one on a .223.  One of the other DR posters let us know some time back that if you're using these on anything with heavier recoil, you need to bed the bases to the action.  Instructions are included in each base package.  The Farrell bases are intended to be glass bedded to the actions for 100% contact.

Frankly, since they're now available, I'd go with the Leupold version of Weaver bases(QRW or whatever they're calling them) or the Warne Maxima bases.  Not quite as flexible in ring placement but less trouble to attach.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 12:30:31 (ZULU)


Thought and here's what I thunk.

A few more years than I can remember I was up on the divide above South Fork, Colorado. Tracking a single elk around a mountain and not caring whether or not the animal was breeding, I intended to shoot him if he had a rack. It was snowing like hell and I was having lots of trouble staying upright on the mountain side but eventually the track led into very dark timber.  I eased my way inside only to find a whole heard of browsing animals with one large bull attending. He was a 4X4 with a medium size rack. The storm was getting worse and I wasn't particular as usual so I decided to bring him down. I had a .270 Win Remington Classic that would shoot 10 shots in a quarter at 100 yards topped with a 3X9 Weaver widefield that had cost me the staggering sum of $100 Merican. Sneaking in to within 50 yards I brought up the scope only to see something I can only describe as looking into the end of an ice cube. I had hunted coyotes with that scope for 3 years in sometimes sub zero conditions but today the inside had taken air and I couldn't even make out the cross hairs. As I faded back into the timber and searched my pack for something to remove the scope. (I thought I'd just sight through the rings no farther than the bull was.) I debated too long before I went back only to find the herd had moved down the mountain and headed for a road about a half mile below. As I watched some Texan in a 2 wheel drive shoot the bull, I vowed never to be caught in the hills with a cheap scope, no matter how long I had trusted it.

That night I switched to a Model 70 .375 and packed that cannon for 3 more days though weather that froze a couple of hunters not far from there to death and found nothing but tracks leading down.

The land below was private and ran along the river where I could not treadd so I came home a thousand dollars poorer but somewhat wiser.

Most Leupolds bring wholesale value as used items in my experience but finding one is the hard part and thats something worth noting.

Weaver has $40 bases that are steel (Grand Slam) that work if you have adversion to $180 dollars in the bases. They  work as well as the premium Leupys or the Badgers and others mentioned but may not be as dependable in harsh conditions but if you have to cut cost, at least do something that will work.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 13:05:06 (ZULU)


OK I dont get it. Guys are affraid of the weight of a stock pack? Please the stock pad adds the ability to attach both a pull through bore cleaner and a data card and all weighs a couple of onces. Plus it gives a good repeatable cheek position and the ability to add foam for higher or take out foam for lower head allignment.  If you cant handle the weight get a #6 taper, lighter stock fill or flute the bbl. I know I am not alone in this as I have seen too many deployed snipers adding this on to issue rifles.  As to which one I prefer the Eagle over the Blackhawk because the material Eagle uses on the side is more cheek friendly.

As to Velcro not being your friend.  Depends on what you use it for.  Works great on stock pads and arm cuffs I have over ten years old and after being drug through the mud many times.

Spurrit, question.  You state you are very accurate to 300 yards. What caliber pistol do you shoot at that distance? Scope will not show its true colors until you start making in field adjustments. Crank the knobs a few times on the 100.00 dollar wonders and see what happens.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 14:15:56 (ZULU)


Spurrit,

  Just catching up on the DR an see you jumped in it with both feet!! Don't feel bad, most of us have done it a time or two.

 A great, strong, cheap, set up for hunting is Leupolds dual dove tail mounts. If you want a good strong "Reasonably priced" scope then try one of the Weaver scopes. I have read several reports on them done by independent tests that say they are as good as the Leupold VariX IIs at about half the price.

 I have went from Weaver, to Redfields to now Leupolds. I don't think theres a better Amreican scope out there than the Leupold. I know its tough on the pocket book but its a one time purchase. Its guaranteed for life!!! I work with a guy just like you an he buys all Tascos because, "I don't need that expensive shit for hunting" but then he always complains about his scopes not working or not tracking correctly.

 I got ridof all my cheap scopes when I got into shooting tactical matches. I had one Leupold 4.5x14 with target knobs an no mil dots. I didn't think I needed them either. I swapped it back an forth between my three rifles. After my first match I sent it off for mil dots an after my next match I sold some more stuff an bought a 3.5x10LR with the 1" clicks.

 I am probably a lot like you, kind of hard headed, but now have a masters degree from the school of hard knocks!! There are some great guys on here. I have met some an shot against others an would like to meet a lot more. I can't think of to many on here that I wouldn't open my home to. So like some of them said, ask with respect an don't bite the hand that feeds you. Good luck in your quest!!

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 14:20:34 (ZULU)


Gee, when I chimed in with the cheap Weaver base thing, didn't know it was going to go this way!  It's been getting waaaay too tame around here, glad to see it's "hotting up". The Tasco Elite aside, I'll go with Leupold just about every time now.  Methinks the Tabasco is a rare bird in the inexpensive scope division. Lisenfeld makes a good one, only I can't find another one, and it's 1/8" clicks on the knobs.  When you need 42 moa comeups, it's an all day affair.

Oh, and asking about a man's saddle is uncool.  It's like asking a man if he's from Texas.  If he is, he'll tell you.  If he's not....why embarrass him?  Anyway, the Comanche were some of the best light cavalry in the world, and they didn't use no pinche saddles.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 16:01:07 (ZULU)


Charles; :) I didn't go too far I hope. At least I didn't ask ole Spurit about his horse trailer.

Ok Spurit; consider yourself Baptised in the holy BS that is

Sniper Country. Put your boots on the coffee table and follow Gooch's advise and you'll be glad you hung around.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 16:15:42 (ZULU)


WR Moore

 Thanks for the info on the Ken Farrell bases, bedding them shouldnt be a problem, I've done a few rifles hopefully I can bed a base without screwing up to bad. The leupold weaver type bases wont work for me I need to be able to move the front ring back a notch. Where do I find Smith enterprises bases and rings?

Spurrit

 Check out e-bay for good deals on quality used scopes, I have seen some awesome deals on loopys some times cosmetic damage or ring marks is the only thing wrong withem. I got a bushnell elite 3200 and a redfield on e-bay both awesome scopes with perfect optics for around half retail price. Of course its a buyer beware situation, I bought from sellers with plenty of positive feedback. Good luck

Question: What is the definition of Muslim kiddie porn

Answer: Pictures of underage goats

 Haji says "its easy to find 72 virgins among ten thousand goats"

Robert Adcock Email this member See this member's profile
Far East, Texas, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 17:54:58 (ZULU)


OK, dumbass question.  Mounted a MK4-M3 on my Win-Stealth 308, Badger 20-MOA base.  Now, I thought the MK4 had enough adjustment to put the cross hairs from 100 to 1K yards.  I couldn't get the cross-hairs remotely close to the 100 yard target, it ran out of adjustment.  I had assumed the MK4 adjustments could handle the 20-MOA base in the 100-1K range, but I must be mistaken.  Badger does not appear to make a zero-taper base for the Win-Stealth.  Am I doing something wrong, or do I need to get a zero-taper base from somewhere?  Any suggestions or sources for zero-taper bases?

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 18:03:38 (ZULU)


2nd try...

This talk about cowboys and saddles reminds me of a story a Utah Fish and Game officer told me.

He was working in the Uinta Mountains in northern Utah.  One day, he and his partner were driving up Christmas meadows when they came upon a cowboy walking down the road.  He looked a bit roughed up and they asked if he needed a ride.  He was very reluctant to explain why he was walking, but finally told his story.

The cowboy had been riding in the area and spotted a big bull moose.  These big bulls are always hanging around in that area.  They aren’t intimidated by anything and appear quite docile.  He decided to rope the moose to see what kind of a fight it would put up.

The moose took off and the horse was not able to even slow it down.  The horse eventually stumbled and the cowboy had to run just to keep up.  The horse was killed when it was dragged between two trees and folded in half.

The cowboy followed the drag trail.  There were bits and pieces of the saddle along the way.  He finally found his dead horse, but he never did find the saddle.

Scott Smith (Old Ironsights) Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 18:12:33 (ZULU)



Mike-I wrote in haste.  As you're well aware, there are several grades of velcro and you use only the finest.  Shall we say that some other equipment manufacturers are not as committed to quality?

I was hoping for a lace on type cheekpad/pack.  Guess I can convert one from velcro to laces.  I hoped to avoid the pack to keep things simple and eliminate extra widgets to catch on things.  Never actually having seen one, I'm afraid of pouches big enough for hoagies. Just learned my local tactical shoppe no longer carries Eagle Industries.  Anyone got a source?

Duman-per 'Lito an actual Loopy Mk IV (fixed power) doesn't need a tapered base.  However, Loopy now lists a MkIV 3.5-10 that only has 65 moa total elevation adjustment.  That would appear to need a tapered base.  Check Brownells for 2 piece flat & tapered bases.

Bob Adcock- I bought direct from the factory:WWW.smithenterprises.com.  Their stuff is also available from Brownells.  However, due to military contracts, delivery is variable.  I ordered in April, received last week.  Worth the wait.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 18:22:43 (ZULU)



Duman' unfortunately you can't tolerate the 20 MOA due to receiver  being a little tapered to the wrong elevation or barrel threading being a little off the wrong way. If your at the bottom of your adjustment you might consider changing to Burris's Zee ring with  composite inserts system. They come with different tapers and they hold their zero as good as anything going especially if you mount them on good bases. They are priced where even the Spurit wouldn't whince and wouldn't mark the scope at all as modification to the Badgers might cause.  

Filing on those front bases gets pretty old fast due to their hardness and if the error is great you'd have to mess with the back taper also. Probably would be a nasty job. Leupold bases would also be an option. They are about as rugged as the Badgers and you can get the zero taper. A more expensive option but the Badgers will sell quickly if thats an option with you.

Charles; I share your enthusiasm for the New Weaver scopes. The Tactical is a good piece of work. 4.5X14 Tacky is sweet all over and the optics just don't leave anything to want. I think if I remember right you can use the Mil Dots at any power.  I use a Grand Slam 2.5X10 on my CEAR. Good turrets and creature features are great.      

I confess a great fondness for the Blackhawk stock packs. I even have one on that CEAR. (Coyote Eliminating AR 15 ) I cut the cartridge loops off and that makes that cold stock feel a lot better on a cold morning. The scope cloth and range card and extra 10 shot plastic clip fit quite well and don't hurt to balance one a little behind the receiver either.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 18:29:28 (ZULU)


FCS,

Yep, pulled up your amended version yesterday, so we're good..I'll probably send you some sort of semi official confirmation...Will get an email back to you sometime here, been away for a bit and playing catch-up on replies, ha...

Rob,

We don't do the ribs here, but I can do some calling round, think Arthur Smith down south of England may be of help there...He does a lot of the African rifles, 4 bore and 8 bore, some work for H&H, chompalumpys, etc, he's set up for it...and he's a decent guy..#1 in my book..If he could get the barrel drilled and OD turned and machined, could send it up to me for rifling or rifle it himself, if you'd like to get in contact with him(one of those guys you should have in your little black book), I can help you out there...

BKS,

I think we all went thru a bit of roastah hazing at one time or another eh..  On my side of the coin, I have learned a LOT about the applications of precision barrels from this site, little things here and there, feedback from true marksmen I happened to be lucky enough to barrel up, a heap of stockwork advice which I knew like the back of my hand(thought so anyway), a lot of kinks and tricks and advice has been borrowed from the guru's on my part, humbled by the amount of info and knowledge provided here...doesn't get any better..Once you think you know it all, WHAMMO!!!  the rostah erupts and I am again enlightened..

Right, take care ya'll

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 18:47:12 (ZULU)


Houze 'bout a twist on th' scope desCUSSion for  Spurit's edification . . . Screw all then new fangled optics.  I shoots with a veriner tang 'n a hooded front sight by Lyman mounted atop my Whitworth.  NO mounts to worry 'bout, NO cross hairs to get outa whack, NO tubes to bend, NO lenes to fog up 'cept 'th ones in my antiquated eye balls.  'N when th' wind is outa th' right direction 'n th' moon is in th' 7th house, 'n Jupiter aligns with Mars . . .  when th' smoke clears I get a right nice tight pattern on th' paper.  I ain't no Mathew Quigley 'n shoot defenseless buckets at no 1500 yds, but, I kin still hold my own . . . Mos' of th' time!

Jim

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Lone Star, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 18:50:45 (ZULU)


Yeah, I knew the MK4 had the range, I just thought it could overcome the additional 20MOA.  I'll get the Loopy 2-pc base.  Do youz guyz know if the Badger rings will work in those, or do I have to get a new set of rings?

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 9, 2004, at 19:37:18 (ZULU)


Duman - this might sound a bit elementry but you did zero the scope with the BDC caps off ..right??  If not take them off and re-zero! I know I didn't do that when I zero'd my M3 a few years back. After removing them I had plenty of adjustment for zero!

Just a thought.

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 21:25:52 (ZULU)


WR Moore,

  In most instances I would agree about velcro and stuff like that. Some of the stuff folks are putting out is pretty cheap. In this case, however, I would suggest you take a look at the cheek rest listed in the tactical section of their catalog/web-site. The one I'm talking about is similar to the one everyone else is talking about except it is a cheek rest ONLY. It weighs a couple of ounces and the velcro only works to hold some very secure straps (three around the stock and one around the buttpad) in place. Soft foam pads are added or taken out to adjust the height. To me, it doesn't add anything except a good cheekweld to the rifle. It doesn't cost anything to look. :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 21:37:56 (ZULU)


re: scopes

One of the advantages of a Leupold is that they'll service a unit

you purchased second-hand.  Receipts - we don't need no stinkin' receipts :-)  Another reason used Leupolds retain their value.

Leupold Customer Service will probably draw the line somewhere, but it's probably around major cosmetic refinishing or re-coating all the lenses...

Where a lot of the money goes in a more expensive scope compared to a less expensive one is repeatability and stability of the adjustments. That's hard to measure looking thru one at the retail store.  

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 22:29:12 (ZULU)


WR Moore - Eagle stock packs.

It's been a while for me, but I believe Eagle still offers direct sales from their home office as well as thru resellers.

(I'm now using one of their Cdn resellers to simplify the border thing).

If you really want to deal with a reseller they can probably put you on to someone close by if you contact them.

I also have one of the Eagle stock packs, I like it.

I have a few of Eagle's bags too - nice gear.

http://www.eagleindustries.com/welcome.asp

Eagle Industries Unlimited, Inc.

1000 Biltmore Drive, Fenton, MO 63026

Phone 636-343-7547 - Fax 636-349-0321

comments@eagleindustries.com

Their online store page was wonky when I tried it at 09-Aug-2004 19:29 Atlantic, but I would suspect that is a temporary condition.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 22:41:55 (ZULU)


Robert Adcock;

 I have looked into having a detachable mag put on a Savage. I couldn't find anyone who said I could afford it. You might can throw some bits together and make something.

ALL;

 I received e-mails with attchments from the following: Peter. Lincoln, JCopeland, JeffLaw, and another. The e-mails didn't have a subject line. They were zip files titled "price list". Dumped them quickly.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 23:14:16 (ZULU)


JR,

Thanks for the nice words.  Glad you enjoyed yourself and you know you are always welcome here - ANYTIME!

JR says most of you guys will know about AOL's anti-shooting stance anyway, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to say it again .  I had heard the ISP was that way inclined, but never realised to what extent.  A  local shooting club had its website closed down recently as it was against company policy to host such sites.  We are talking a black powder, lever action and small-bore club here, not a terrorist training camp.  The club's site manager received a standard letter explaining the reasons for the site being closed.  It was a kind of 'you are one of the following' type affairs where the club was listed along side the likes of child pornography.  If any of you guys didn't know and are AOL customers (or were considering becoming one) maybe you should look elsewhere for an ISP and tell them why you are changing.

Talking scopes, I'm looking for something for my rimfire.  I'm wanting variable, no bigger than 50mm objective with adjustable parallax down to 10yds/m.  Would prefer a 30mm tube as I may well be using Badgers (no joke) as I am considering taking the scope on and off regularly if I get a NV for it.  Any suggestions?  On a related note, are Weaver rings compatible with  Picatinny base(s) and vice versa (thinking options here)?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Monday, August 9, 2004, at 23:25:37 (ZULU)



Duman,

IF that's a MK4M3-10x.......then you need to get rid of the tapered base........no need, and there is where thoustest problem liest........

And, as anuuder Hawgster stated, if the 3.5, yes, you will need a bit of OOOmph.......to get it Zero'd at a hunnnnered........

Believe the Fat One suggests some Fanger Nail polish in the front ring..........

PS: Just be sure NOT to use Tacticals color........LOL

Dos Zap

Two Shoooos Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 02:28:31 (ZULU)


Dos Zap,

>>>IF that's a MK4M3-10x.......then you need to get rid of the tapered base........no need, and there is where thoustest problem liest<<<<

Got a Badger Rail on my HBV with a Mk4 M3. No problemo. Took it up with Marty before I put it on...just in case. He says, "No problemo." Zeroes just fine. Been spot on from the get go with a 30-06 cam. Didn't need the tapered base like you said but I did want the Badger rail....and I got it used to boot...from Don K (I think)

>>>>Believe the Fat One suggests some Fanger Nail polish in the front ring..........

PS: Just be sure NOT to use Tacticals color........LOL<<<<

Me thinks that Lito always recommended tactical pink....yeah I'm pretty sure ;)))

--

>>>Oh, and asking about a man's saddle is uncool.  It's like asking a man if he's from Texas.  If he is, he'll tell you.  If he's not....why embarrass him?<<<<

Good points ;))) I've used a Carl Darr saddle myself.

>>>Anyway, the Comanche were some of the best light cavalry in the world, and they didn't use no pinche saddles.<<<

Nope....and they just rode those ponies in the ground, put'em on the spit fer supper and went and got themselves another. ;)))

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 02:56:49 (ZULU)


hey guys I got two virus emails from Condor. So wathc out. Speaking of wich has any one heard from the El Gato latelty? Just wondering how the fights going.

Ok, Beer question limited to Stouts. What's your favorite brand of Stout? Guiness is a given are there any others I should be trying. Drinking a Young's now prefer the Big G to it. I like Wildcatters Refined micro but looking so more widely availible stouts.

Damn just got done triming, Chamfer/deburing and annealing 200 cases. What a chore...

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 02:58:02 (ZULU)


Dirty Steve,

You might want to give Great Divide's Yeti Stout a try; is a little on the hoppy side for a stout.

I feel your pain, got 800 pcs of brass to size, trim, neck turn, and load so that the ammo can be sitting on the exporters dock 1 Oct.

FCS

FCS Email this member See this member's profile
Central , NM, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 03:35:09 (ZULU)


Well my vacation to Reno was interupted by some bad news.  One of my beat partners was killed in a motorcycle accident on Saturday.  He was practicing for a race (amatur MC racing) and was in a collsion, died within minutes.  My department and LE in general lost a good cop and good guy.  RIP John.

OK I have a question.  I picked up an 03 that had been built into a bench rest gun at auction for almost nothing.  Does anyone know the gunmakers logo...crossed keys in a circle.  This rifle is a piece of artwork and inside the butt plate it was marked as "N0 63 9/21/55".  Any ideas on who did it or where to start looking please let me know.

Walmart and scopes.  I know this was borught up in jest but the Wally's World near me does have Loopy Vari X's, PRW and QR rings/mounts in stock for most popular rifles.  The prices are far better than any gun store around me and the counter guy said if I was willing to go through he Loopy book with him he could get the M1'& M3's along with MK4 mounts at pretty fair prices but with a little wait.  I have sent a couple people there for Loopy stuff.

Other than work sucks and our dumba*% capt. decided he wants to revamp the weapons program, which will send us back to around 1980 and us weapons training folks will probably all be replaced when opposition is voiced...all is well (ha).  Self appointed experts piss me off.

Jon B-  IT'S ALL HERE !!!  Shoot me you're addy off line and it will be THERE soon. =)

Take it easy,

Joe S.          

Joe S. Email this member See this member's profile
Dago, Arnoldland, US of A - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 03:52:27 (ZULU)



Just checking in for a little bit, been too busy to play here too much lately. But I do keep up with what goes down! No pie fights lately though, with the exception of the optics stuff.

Here's a slick answer for that: Get my Parker Hale match sights back from the poster child for immorality digest. They'll put you anywhere you need to be at 300 and in, easily and consistently. Rugged, as reliable as you are, and quick. The aperture (rear) is adjustable, so different lighting conditions are easily dealt with. The front, being a hooded affair, is pretty quick, as the eye tends to center things in a circle naturally. Of course, if the inserts (yeah, I actually DID get them back, no sight, just inserts) didn't look like they'd been soaking in a cup of seawater for a few years.....

Anyone else catch clintooon on the Daily Show? The thing is still slimy. WAY slimy. Almost believable in what it said. Almost. I actually felt sorry for those gullable enough that they couldn't tell what was fertilizer and what wasn't.

Been playing some with pistol powders lately, just to see what I can do. Remember the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" saying? Well, there's a corolary to that.... if you look hard enough at just about anything, you can see where it's broke in some way. What's the upshot? You know those loading books we all purchase (some of us have to purchase them twice, since court orders to return stuff don't matter)? Well, they're just flat liars. They lie almost as much as an ex-wife in signed, sworn testimony. Just can't believe a word of it.

The end of this week may very well spell the end of the torture by litigation for me, the "final" hearing, all within a scant 40 months. Of course, this is the 8th final hearing, as the previous 7 have been delayed. Gee, I wonder who's benefit it is to delay? HA!

Know what else I figured out? If you're going to work up loads, don't do it in a Glock. That funky striker indention makes things look odd when they're really not.

So here's a question for the masses! It seems that I got some ammo returned. I tried some of it. Where there were obviously NO squibs when I was using this stuff long, long ago, there are now. I tried the same powder, making up some "fresh" rounds. No problems, but the velocities were about 40 fps slow. I did use fresh primers though. I didn't try using old primers, because they all lit off. Just some squibbed and some didn't. I'm thinking powder degredation somehow, and the only thing that makes any sense to me is long term storage in extreme heat. Anyone have any experience with this kind of stuff? Obviously the ammo is junk. After the first hand full of squibs, I figured it wasn't some fluke. I'm not taking the chance on getting blown up or wrecking anything. This really makes me wonder, as I've used lots of milsurp stuff from bygone eras, and it all functioned just fine. I can't believe that milsurp survived 40 years or more just fine, and my ammo didn't survive 3.25. The only other thing I can figure is maybe humidity, but I wouldn't think that would be a problem with the powder sealed up in a casing, much less the fact that it's so dry here for half the year. Any takers?

And Sir Wes, you still need to send that 6X my way ;-)

Take care fellows, God Speed to those on the pointy end of the spear, and God Bless

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 04:14:16 (ZULU)


Hey all long time lurker here with a question.  What kind of accuracy is common with the remington ADL series I had one in 300 win mag that would print an inch at 100 yards with the right ammo is this common or is it a fluke?  Also is there a source for M-118 special ball exactly how the military gets it?  I really like the wealth of knowlegde on this site

gabriel Email this member See this member's profile
biloxi, Mississippi, - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 06:46:10 (ZULU)


Ref: Pistol Stuff

This past weekend I attended a three day pistol course given by Chuck Taylor.  At the end of the course he administered his "Pistol Combat Master Test".  He has given this test to over 500 people since 1982 and until last Sunday only 23 people had passed it.  Now there are 25 and I am one of them.

Sorry, I just couldn't keep that to myself.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 08:56:16 (ZULU)


Pete- "Bite Me" comment was meant jokingly! (still don't like pic rails, though)As for what the hell I'm doing here- I'm gleaning info that relates to the things I use this particular rifle for- I have have others for different duties. Mini-14 or 30 is fav. for all around, "throw it in the truck and whack some dogs" guns.

Dirty Steve, thx for suggestion, don't know how to "clam down", though! Heard and understand (and agree with) other post about cost/value.

John, as for the adjustable mounts, they don't adjust very much, and they'r tighter than hell-similar to redfield bases.

Brogers, CHILL! I'm not saying that you can't shoot lint off a flea's dick at 2 miles, or whatever, I'm saying "This is what I have, this is how much I have to spend, this is what I need it to do" I'm sure not everyone here has a buttload of money to spend on optics, and I'd like their input as well! Thx for the Welcome.

Robert Adcock- I was just laughing w/a friend at a gun show this weekend about the guys that try to "Buy Accuracy" You know, clean, shiny weatherby's,(doorstops) $50/a box ammo, $700 scope, $400 hunting outfit, $150 knives,(dull, of course) and about 15 min. of dragging their fat asses to the range before blowing $7,500 on an elk hunt in "straight up and down" country. Inbetween defibrilator shocks, they blame the guide for not leading their trophy down to their cabin with a trail of corn!

Brian K Sain- You seem like a pretty good guy, you give pretty good advice, just don't get all bent outta shape because I'm looking for the answer I need, not the one you want me to have.

Gooch- Road house? WTF are you from? Coonass La.? If you had read(you can read, right?)the posts before the one you're griping about, you'd see that I'm not bragging, but answering a question. Anyways, bragging price on a saddle starts at around $5,000, AFTER waiting at LEAST a year! Also, refer yourself to the parts where I said why I'm in here, and what I'm looking for. If you can't help, shut up!

Mike Miller- I just grit my teeth and nod for the gate-EMT's will generally tell ya if you bucked off!

JR, nobody asked you. Thx for the E-mail, though, it was helpful.

Robert Martin- That's why I can always outrun my fatass hunters! LOL Wish some of them would go to kodiak island and mess up.

Scott- I love roping- NO matter HOW BAD you get the urge- DO NOT ROPE WILD GAME! A friend of mine got a loop on a coyote, which ended up in the saddle with him. A local lumber truck driver saw a rutting buck just standing there, and decided to be a wiseass- a neighbor had to kill the deer, just so he could get out from UNDER the truck! Antelope turn into frigging NINJAS when you rope 'em! And, (trust me on this)the won't "just leave" when you let go of the rope! Almost every ranch I've worked on, there's been someone that got bored, and learned these lessons the hard way! I thought about roping a cow moose off of a colt one time- thank GOD I didn't wanna lose my new ROPE! (I was 19) So, I repeat- DON"T ROPE WILD GAME- They take it PERSONAL!                                                             {This message paid  for by the commitee to save dumb rednecks that  too often utter the phrase, "Hey, Ya'll, "Watch this""}!

Jim, grandaddy gave me a verneer!

Mk-4-  Try a Fred Hook saddle, they're ugly as Gooch, but they're the most comfortable saddles I've ever ridden. He specialises in endurance saddles, but makes buckaroo rigs, too.

Well, sorry to be so long winded, enjoying the wealth of knowledge. Thanks to all that try to help me w/out being arrogant. Anyone needs to know anything horse-wise, e-mail me, I'm more than happy to help with MY area of expertise. See, ya start off with a $75,000 dollar saddle..........

Keep em in the black, y'all, and thanks!

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 10:26:03 (ZULU)


Any views on SWFA scopes? I keep seeing them on e-bay, never heard of them. BTW, SSS .22 sniper subsonic rounds aren't as quiet as they've been said to be, almost as loud as regular .22 short. Guess I'll hafta use diplomacy to keep neighbor's dog off my lawn!

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 11:43:18 (ZULU)


Spur,

You might be well advised to try diplomacy first, at least before using your huntin skills.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 11:51:16 (ZULU)


Spurrit.  WTF am I from?  Can I read?  Well, tell you what there slick if you would read my post you would see I am from Hot Springs Arkansas.  

I didnt say you were bragging, I said you seem to have an insecurity problem.

You can read cant ya?  

And by the way if this was a "road house", and I think everyone in this place knows what a road house is, you would be in a heap behind a dumpster by now.  

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 11:51:59 (ZULU)


Gooch, I think Freud would have read your post and said something about an Oedipal complex, "compensating", and suggested stuffing a sock down the front of your pants. Nobody but your poodle thinks you're tough, junior.

      -Your "REAL" Daddy

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 12:10:31 (ZULU)


Spurt, I think there might be just a few people left who you haven't insulted yet.

I hate jobs done half way. Reminds me too much of cheap glass.

It's kids like you that drove off some of our more Patronly patrons.

My guess? You're about to figure out the hard way that this crew sticks together, when they're not sticking it to eachother. We retain the right to bicker among ourselves, but don't take much from interloping kids.

If you knew to whom you were corresponding, I would hope that you'd show proper respect. Lots more respect than I have for you.

Andy's Dad, congrats! I've read about that test, always wanted to try my hand at it. You and Andy going to make it to SHOT this year again?

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 12:24:43 (ZULU)



Spuritt - you are starting to become noticeable above the noise level.....If you cant chill out - you will be looking for another web board to post.  

Settle down here -listen, learn, and contribute  Positively....

Ken Hunter

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 12:41:07 (ZULU)


Spurrit, spurrit, spurrit....

Psalms 92:6 - A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 13:09:43 (ZULU)



General Information: Nate here is the answer:

Schmidt & Bender. Biebertal-Wetzlar Germany produced a 15-60x60 Spotting Scope between 1975 and 1986. It ws not waterproof only water resistant. It had simple coatings on the lenses, not multicoat or anything fancy. It was primaerily intended for sale in The UK and Switzerland.

OK guys, can someone confirm that the weatherby vanguard is the same rifle as the Howa, it looks the same to me but before i orderone i want to be sure.

Spurrit i'll tell you a hunting story. Please excuse the spelling mistakes and grammar i haven't edited it yet.

One morning in the early summer of 1998 ( i think it was 98) i drove my jeep to the farm ( the farm is a secret location in the Yorkshire Wolds) I parked the jeep near the ruined farm house, which doubles as my 525m target when i'm in the mood for some target shooting, Stalking along the edge of the copse and decending below the military crest of the hill i could see most of the opposing hill, which was the north west side of the dale below, I knew the old buck would be about some where, i had been stalking the same buck for more than 5 years and never managed to get a shot off at him, this buck, who has had more luck than any deer should ever have, was magnificent , the Roe Buck that every Roe Buck hunters derams are made of, long tined antlers, at least 6 points, thick and heavy purling,

I'd first seen him years before, when he was a yearling, but no ordinary yearling this one. Already with six points and well above then length of his lugs, as a yearling better than many mature bucks I have shot. He was right on top of the opposite dale side,  right where the smaller north south running dale enters the bigger east west, like a re entrant, its funny, but if you looked at an aerial photograph of this area you would see that three dales join and make exactly the shape of a roe bucks antler, maybe the shape of the dales is an omen.

He had his head stuck over the rabbit fence, munching on the peas that where growing in the field. I  was sat perched on top of the next hill to the north west, the buck was at least 600m away, this was in the days before lazer range finders but I knew the ground well, having grown up on the farm I knew the distances from one field to another having walked them many a time as a youngster.

I was armed with  a Winchester Model 70 youth in 243win, I had re stocked it with a butler creek tupperware stock when the original wooden handle had become to short, it was scoped with a Kahles 6x42, not enough gun, to much distance, and besides I could only see his head, his body was behind the gorse bushes, still I was sure it was a buck, It had to be a buck and I had to get closer, I ran back over , or more accurately through the crest of the hill I was on, through with the help of a bomb crater which was conveniently right in the crest of the hill, courtesy of the German Luftwaffe who had been trying to neutralise the search light emplacement that was part of farm life through the war years. Luckily for Grandad, who had doubled as an air raid warden, they missed,  Luckily for me the crater meant I didn&#8217;t have to sillohette my self on the hill. I ran below the crest, as fast as I could parallel to the dale. When I reached the hedge line,  I ran along it towards where the buck had been, here I could run right over the hill because I was hidden behind a copse. Panting and out of breath,  I stopped for a moment to catch my wind. Then on -  through the copse to a gap in the hedge from where I could see most of the dale and more importantly the spot where the buck had been. This  would be less than 200m away, I crawled the last 30m to avoid any chance of being seen. I raised the binoculars and sure enough, right under the goarse bush was the  tell tale white rear end of a roe deer. I watched and watched, he put his head up and turned his head side ways,  just enough for me to marvel at the quality of his antlers, a young buck certainly, but he was clever enough not to give me any chance of a shot at his vitals and I refuse to shoot game from behind. A Pea Viner turned up to start vineing  the field. The buck slipped back into his lare among the gorse, and that was the end of the mornings stalking. I had seen enough to note that he was an outstanding Roe Buck, but i could only guess at his age, he wasn&#8217;t very old. from time to time i saw him again, but usualy when I was rabbiting with the .22 Brunner and if I was stalking then always at last light or to far away. This buck was born with the cunning of a thousand bucks.  I stalked him time and again,  only to have him dissapear into thin air, this buck ran circles around my stalking ability, time and time again, i could feel his presence almost always when I was in his territory, I could feel his beady eyes burning holes in the back of my head, he was watching me often, far more often than I could catch a glimpse of him. I became obsessed with this buck, over time I got better equipment, I went from the 6x42 Kahles to a 6-24x42 Leupold  and from the 243 to a 7mm Rem Mag model 70 (with that finiky boss system), then I went on to a custom shop Remmy 700 mountain rifle, then to a Sendero in 300 win mag, finnaly  going back to the mountain rifle in 30-06. When the Leupold broke for the 3rd time I got it fixed and relegated it to the .22lr then bought a S&B 3-12x50 PMII. I bought a Bushnell range finder, just to be sure and I practiced shooting and stalking.

Once I saw the buck again in the same place I had first seen him, but this time i had stalked the western end of the farm land and he was at least 800m away,  I had borrowed a spotting scope and at x30 magnification I could tell it was him, I could see that it was my buck, I knew him by now well, his manner, the way he walked, the way he held his head, his overall posture, it was him. The wind was blowing a gale, risky to shoot but in that wind in wasn't going to attempt a shot at him, he deserved better. So many times I had seen him,  just a glimpse, or in full view when I wasn&#8217;t carrying a rifle. I had called him during the rut only to have him charge in, see me at the last minute and always but always get away before I had a chance to shoot, the times he had given me the slip,  made a fool of me where to numerouse to think about.

And now there Iwas,  back on his beat, entering his fields and woods, I bet if deer had cartoons to watch then I'd be his Elmer Pfudd.  I stalked along the copse and then along the edge of the thicket.  Past where the pheasant release pen is, these thickets are a load of bushes that grow on the dale side, about 75m in depth and a good Km long,  thick as hell, the deer lay up in there because you just cannot get close without them knowing you are there, the place is also pock marked with rabbit warrens, it had been one of my favourite ferriting spots as a kid, how often had we caught over a half hundred rabbits in the space of a couple of hours. I dropped down into the dale through the only ride or gap in the brush. Watching all the time the grassy fence line at the opposite side of the dale, what did I see, unbelievable ! The Buck!, clear to see in the open just behind the fence, I couldn't believe my luck, only about 200m away, no idea of my presence and the wind was perfec. I quickly got into a make shift possittion,  a bit difficult among the nettles on the steep down hill slope but with the help of the bipod and a conveniently placed rabbit burrow,or more accurately the pile of earth out side the burrow, I got comfortable, I watched the buck for a few minutes through the scope at 12x, it was him, his posture and his attitude, if ever a Roe Buck was macho, this was him, I knew that with the pulling of my trigger an era would come to an end, a friendship of sorts would be over, a struggle for life ended and ambition fulfilled, for a moment I was sad. Then taking a breath and releasing it, holding at the right moment  saying good by I squeezed of the shot. I had lazed the buck with the Bushnell, he was at 180m, an easy shot. But instead of dropping at the shot,   with the impact of the 180 grain Hornady interlock he just turned his defiant head to see where the shooting was from, I quickly chambered another round, found my mark again and squeezed of shot number 2, at this the buck ran slightly up hill, stopped and looked back over his shoulder, then turned side ways, I squeezed of another shot, and missed again, my third, I got off one more shot as the buck hightailed it over the top of the hill and down in to the goarse bushes. I cussed loudly,  most of the words beginning with F or B, I couldn't  believe it, after all these years, all these stalks, finally I get an honest chance and I blow it, not just once but 4 times, unbelievable, I slung the  rifle in disgust over my shoulder and made my way back up the hill. To add insult to injury I slipped and went face down in a patch of thistles, more cussing ensued,  the events of the last few minutes going over and over in my head, breathing was good, possittion was ok, range, i knew it, wind, none to be adjusted for. Why the hell had I missed? Buck fever, well I was excited, but it hadn't happened before, then I looked down at the rifle cradled it in my hands, the best equipment.. but I had still missed ! How the hell could that happen and four times!  To say I was disgusted with my self would be an understatement. I had walked part way up the hill when I turned to look back down the dale, what did I see, that crafty old bugger, instead of hiding in the goarse he was circling around to come up behind me, obviously thinking that I would follow him into the goarse bushes,  what a tactic, if I hadn&#8217;t seen it with my own eyes I would never have believed it,the crafty bugger he was circling around with the intention of being in the thickets from where I had shot by the time I was rooting through the goarse bushes after him. It had crossed my mind to follow him up, but I figured that he would give me the slip as he had done a hundred times before anyway, so I didn&#8217;t bother.

He was by now crossing the dale floor and heading up the hill I was on, all be it about 200m to the other side of the copse, I ran as hard as I could,  around the up hill edge of the copse and out into the half grown corn field. I took up a kneeling possition about 75 m from a know deer trail that comes from the dale through the hedge and goes over to the woods on the next farm. I tried to compose my self and catch my breath. I few seconds later I caught movement on the other side of the hedge, and then he boldly trotted through the hedge, I let him come into the filed far enough to ensure I had a safe back stop for the bullet. Then I whistled, he froze in his tracks, I could make out the look of shier horror on his face, I had out whited him for the first time in nearly 6 years, for the first time I was one step ahead. I had already raised the rifle and had him in the scope. The mildot reticle settled on his shoulder and I pulled the trigger. The rifle recoiled and I recovered quick enough to see the buck make a run for it to my left, I uttered more obsceneties, and before the buck had reached the crest of the hill I had gotten another 2 shots off at him. My last glimpse of him was as he looked back over his shoulder, I could almost imagine his thoughts, &#8220; Hmmm, farmer has a new bird scarer&#8221;

I was dumb founded, at least 3 of the 7 shots had been normaly easy shots, and I had missed each and every time, seven shots ! I called after him &#8220;Go on you lucky bugger run, you&#8217;ve done it again, you have beaten me&#8221; at that I was some how over come with joy and started to laugh so hard and dance about that if some one had seen me,  they would have been calling the local mental home to ask about escapees.

During my dancing about and jumping up and down I felt or heared something, so I jumped up and down again, then I shook the rifle, something was loose.. I looked closer, sure enough, those most expensive of all German mounting devices, the Rolls Royce of scope rings, EAW or Appel  swing of mounts as the are known, the bloody screws had come loose, the bases where tight to the rifle,but despite very carefully setting the things up, and thread locking every screw with locktite , some how between the range, the week in Scotland I had just hunted and now the damn scope mounts had shot completely loose, I couldn&#8217;t have hit a barn door twice at 30m with the scope wobbling around like that.

No wonder I had managed to miss the Roe Buck of a life time with all 7 shots. That deer had the luck of the Irish and I had a very expensive pile of junk for a mounting system.

When I got back to Germany I started looking for a set of 34mm rings that didn&#8217;t have all those parts that the EAW&#8217;s did to come loose. Now that was a mamoth task in its self, the PMII had only just hit the market and EAW where the only company producing mounting devices for this scope. I had never heard of Badger Ordnance back then. I ended up machining my own 34mm rings in the same style as the Leupold Quick Release, no easy task as I wanted to swap the scope between a long and a short action Remington 700 and the bases available didn&#8217;t have the holes for the stud on the ring in the same place, there was about a half inch difference between long and short action as I remember, even turning the base around didn&#8217;t work, finaly I machined a front base for the short action that extended to the same distance as the long action, so now I could swap the scope about. It worked ok, but return to zero with swapping on an off wasn&#8217;t exact, it was within an inch or so, but not bang on.

Some time later I saw the one piece Accuracy International mount, it reminded me of the mount on my airgun, but hell with a price tag like that it must be a good thing. ( Dejavue EAW). So I bought me a Picatinny base and the AI mount. The damn thing wouldn&#8217;t return to zero, my home made quick release where more reliable. I was contemplating selling the scope, infact I even advertised it on the Emporium.

Then one day at a  hunting and shooting show in Dortmund, I was telling the story to one of the S&B Reps, he produced, as if by magic, like a rabbit out of a hat, a set of Badger Ordnance rings, I think I commented &#8220;Heck  you could tow a jeep with them&#8221;. I almost tore the mans hand off, I grabbed the rings whilst I could, even at the S&B inflated price, ( which was at least double what Marty recommends they be sold at) .  The high price didn&#8217;t matter too much because due to a screw up at S&B they thought I had ordered and paid but not actually received some rings, so they sent me a second set and never asked for money, ( Hey, I have to have some luck some time).

I have been using Badger-Ord rings ever since, I have swapped the S&B between 7 different rifles, all with a picatinny rail. Undo the rings, swap rifles , torque em back up and adjust for the known deviation from rifle to rifle, shoot.. smack on the money.. Bingo..

Badger Ord rings and bases have proved to be the most reliable optical mounting device that I have ever owned , used or worked on and I have been through most all of the others available and not just in 34mm.

Spurrit, that is why you need a decent set of rings and a good base. If you pinch the pennies on this it will return to bite you right royaly in the ass.

Did I finally get the buck, you bet I did. One evening I went up to the farm, just to check zero as I had flown over and was heading to Scotland.  I caught the buck down in the dale, his guard was down because it was during the rut and he was being very amourouce towards a Doe. One shot at just under 300m put and end to his long, lucky and eventful life. He was a big strong buck, even for the rut and his maybe 9 years of age. Carrying him out of the dale took all the strength I could muster, his antlers had receded, his face was scared, no doubt from seeing of other bucks. His trophy has pride of place amongst all the other bucks that hand on my wall, some are bigger, most where smaller, but none where more lucky or cunning and writing this makes me wish he was still there to be stalked.

I will not attemt to take a magnificent game animal with inferior kit ever again, the rifles i carry hunting i would happily carry in a combat zone and rely upon to defend my life. You don't like a Picatinny rail, well thats up to you, but it is the strongest most practical,simple and reliable mounting system availible today.

A Porsche looks nice, its sleek and comes with a high price tag, but ist your pick up or SUV that gets you into the woods and out again, the the super market when you nee more than a carton of milk and gets you every where else you want to go. and bugger me its also sleek enough to get caught speeding in.. if you get my drift..

Picatinny Pete. !

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 13:37:40 (ZULU)


Spurrit....

  I do think you have crossed the line an need to zip it shut. Your insulting someone I have a lot of respect for. I know Gooch an Brian can damn well take care of themselves but it still really pisses me off when you come on here an start mouthing off to people you know nothing about.

 All they an my self have done is offer you good sound advice on what is the best way to do something. Now if you can't afford it thats fine. I don't have Badger rings or bases on all my rifles either. I have them on one because I won a pair at SQ-3 along with a new barrel. The rest of my bases are Leupolds that I have the rings heli arched to the bases so they can't move. Cheap an stronger than hell.

 If your only intrested in hunting an shooting 300yds use open sights an move over to a hunting board. This board is about snipers an "Long range" shooting, as in out to or past 1000yds.  Your "Cheap" scopes, or whatever, won't go that far so if you want to shoot that far accuately (Most of us do) then you "HAVE" to have a good scope, end of story!!  So when someone comes on this sight we normaly assume they have a intrest in "LONG" range shooting an are intrested in knowing what they need to be able to do that. Like I said if you want to shoot only 300yds go someplace else. Your welcome is wearing thin.

Ken,

 Feel free to delete my post if I have stepped over the line but this guy is a JERK!!  All anyone has tried to do is offer him some good advice an even given him other options.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 13:43:52 (ZULU)


And to that scripture I say "AMEN!"

Just what the hell was your question anyway?

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 13:47:42 (ZULU)


Spuritt said: "Jim, grandaddy gave me a verneer!"  

Still got it??  Want to sell it??  If you don't want to sell it put it on somethin 'n ues it!! It's better than what you can get today, commercially anyway.  Oh yeah, you could pay $1000.00 for a custom hand made sight . . . Cost vs. value buy the best that you can afford, rifle, sights, lock ,stock, and barrel as the 'ol timers would say.  In my mind it should be the ratio of cost to QUALITY . . . I guess you could equate value to quality.  

I'm the odd one in this bunch, Spuritt, that is I don't shoot modern arms.  I shoot Black Powder only.  My long range muzzle loading rifles are Whitworths, a hex bore, a Alex Henry rifled Volunteer, and a Rigby rifled Vol.  Cartridge rifles are 1874 Shiloh Sharps in 45-120 paper patched long range express, 50-140 Business rifle.  The latest addition the stable is a 1886 Jonathon Browning designed takedown Winchester in 45-70.  The 45-70 is my deer gun and the 50-140 is my pig gun.

Whatever you question is concerning long range/sniper rifles optics, mounts, loads, or, anything else this is the place to get the answers.  These guys ARE the ones to ask.  Just be careful how you ask it!  Like the 'ol drunk Cajun that climbs up after a big old boar 'coon he just treed . . he grabs the 'coon 'n the 'coon grabs him after 10 minutes of fightin' he yells down to his buddy Budroux "go ahead and shoot up here wid tat twice-barreled shoot gun you dun got there. . . one of us needs som relief!!  

One of these days Ima gona make it to Badlands to at least watch the competition.  Maybe take a couple of pot shots with one of my smoke poles during the trials.

I found a good web site about (Robert) Rodger's Rangers and the French and Indian War of the 1650s iffin anyone's interested.  Question:  Who won the French and Indian War?

Answer: The English.

Keep your powder dry, and, you flint sharp.

Jim

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, TEXAS, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 13:50:58 (ZULU)


Jim Mcnabb; Lovely gun cabinet you have there. Gotta go to work, please ya'll keep this cowboy entertained till I get back, he may want to answer his own question and then argue with himself again, so if that happens between his insulting of everyone that tries to help him, give him my most hospitable regards and have him call me in the morning for another prescription.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 14:10:29 (ZULU)


Kevin,

Congrats, you earned it.

Ken H.

Load and make ready, please.

Pat,

AMEN, brother.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 14:42:55 (ZULU)



Spurt, Squirt, leak under pressure.

I've been lurking here for well over a year. I shoot to relax, same reason I fly. Started coming here to get info to make me better and enjoy it more. Found out that though I may not know most of these people personnally, I know every one of them as brothers from experience. All of the training boxes are checked. No one here has anything to prove to anyone.

Go back to school, get your doctorate then come back.

As I once told a desk sargent while filing a complaint, "I must be getting old, twenty years ago I'd of just fragged the SOB."

Able One Clear

PS. Joe I assume your route home did not come through the land of flyin' pigs. How are the kids?

Mike Wiseman Email this member See this member's profile
Harrison, Oh, - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 14:53:17 (ZULU)


Spurrit.

There is just something wrong with folks that hold an attitude of contempt for those they are employed to serve.

Cops, firemen and medics that assume an aire of superiority over the hard working general public, guides that hire out as experts and then mock the people who pay them, lawyers who prey on the poor honest Americans that work with their hands and find themselves in trouble...  all fit in the same bucket of shit as far as I'm concerned. You can find yourself in a world of hurt when you walk into a 'roadhouse' and spout off without knowing the crowd.  

Gooch is good people, I have attended training where he was the instructor (I learned a lot!).   You need to sit down and shut up immediately, the opportunity to learn a life lesson the easy way is right in your face...ignore it an you will be the only one that will suffer.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 15:34:12 (ZULU)


GAWD, Brogers,

I hate it when work interferes with BSing 'bout guns!!  Thanks for the complements on my arsenal it ain't as fine as some of the other members, but it'll do me fer now.  After reading about some of the Hawg 'n Hawgett's toys I'm ALMOST tempted into pulling out a modern rifle 'n dollin' it up with all the fancy stuff!!

You could be being too kind to our new friend Spurrit calling him a "cowboy" He's from By-God-Kansas fer Christ's sake!!  When did they allow cows in Kansas??  IF there are cows in the Jayhawker state they are all from Texas.  Now I have heard of sheep and goat ranches in Kansas.  Soooooooooo!!  we may have a fer sure, fer sure sheeeepboy er a real goatroper!!  But, he does say he shoots guns soooooooooes he ain't all bad . . . unless he votes as a Democraper 'n scareyjohnkerry.  

I had an uncle several times removed that visited Kansas a time or two . . name was William T. Anderson.  Family history has it that he had a grudge against some folks in Lawrence, Kansas, 'n, took some revenge in the summer of 1863.  My G-G-grander father was James Anderson "Bloody" Bill's little brother.

I'ma 5th generation Texan 'n I've seen my share of "Drugstore Cowboys" 'n Rexall-Ropers.  They wear Tony Lama boots that ain't NEVER seen a speck of Bovine fecal matter on um!!  AND Felt hats in the summer!!

Gota run,

You cops 'n military types watch you 6 'n keep your head down, your powder dry, and your flint sharp.

Jim

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 16:26:52 (ZULU)


First off Kevin Great Job!  Taylor is a great instructor and what you  did means a bunch.

Second, Spurrit, having been a sniper for only a little over twenty years makes me old and places me in a place where I know I dont know near as much as I wish about long range shooting.  I mean full time is not enough time for all the work to learn it all.  Seems you some how picked up everything there is to know and are now a fine 300 yard shooter.  

What if you found out the guys on here you have insulted can hit with a little AR15 at 1000 yards?  Most are instructors. Some ran USMC Sniper Schools. Some have more war wounds then they will admit.  Many have a million or more rounds down range. Many have helped with designs of fielded sniper systems and calibers or rifles named after them.  To give you just one example Gooch, was hand picked by me, for a team to go to Afghanistan (Toto that place is not Kansas), so I am fairly well equiped to comment on his Resume/CV.  I would fight along side Gooch anyday. In short you are not qualified to clean his toilet so shut the f.. up.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 16:43:34 (ZULU)


Fuck it, I TRIED to explain my side, if you wanna get pissy, FINE. I really didn't hafta reply to those snotty comments, but felt I owed it to the folks that WEREN'T being jerks.

  Jim, not gonna ditch Dad's verneer, thanks for the offer. Eventually, when hell freezes, and I can afford it, I'll put it on a Sharps or something. WTf do you use for elk? Black powder cruise missile? Well, I think my scope just got pushed further down the list; I think I'm in love.......with a HUGE 4 door diesel pickup!

   Also, LOL at the Rexall ropers, -they're from Texas. Actually, most of the year, I train and shoe horses, as well as helping a stock contractor friend of mine, and we run cattle on the flint hills. My Current fav. mount is a strawberry roan granddaughter of Boston Mac that can spin almost fast enough to make ya puke. Only thing about her I hate is that she ducks out if you get out over her shoulder too much on a heel shot.

   As for "outlaw" relatives, I'm supposedly related to John Wilkes Booth, but I ain't exactly braggin'. I think all the other old folks were okie moonshiners. I was born in Tulsa. As for the "no cows in Kansas" comment.....Ever hear of Dodge City? Abilene? The chisholm trail? It's 1/4 mile from my house!

   Anyhow, let's bury the hatchet, y'all; nothing worth noting's been posted in a coupla days.

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 17:16:21 (ZULU)



sorry about double post

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 17:16:27 (ZULU)


Medicjim,

   If you wanna respect some fatass that refuses to track a wounded animal, then demands a shot at another, fine. They sound like your kinda people. STAY IN TOWN.

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 17:19:53 (ZULU)


Spurrit, please either shut up or sit down, you are not doing yourself any good.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 17:31:21 (ZULU)


Pete,

   If you ever write a book, I want the first copy; excellent writing! I get the point; HOWEVER- You did ALL that traveling and NEVER checked your equipment? Check, double, and triple check ALWAYS! I almost had a bronc stomp my head in when I was a kid because I didn't check my equipment. Now, I go COMPLETELY through my saddle every couple months, do daily checks as well. As for my guns, I check them every time and Go over them every night while the lard ass hunters are getting too drunk to go afield the next day.

Spurrit Email this member See this member's profile
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 17:38:17 (ZULU)



Spurrit wrote "Medicjim, If you wanna respect some fatass that refuses to track a wounded animal, then demands a shot at another, fine."

You missed my point, I was suggesting you shut your pie hole and not work for asshats..

also, responding to your threat...If you wish to dictate were I travel in the US, I suggest you invest in a decent pic rail and the skill to use it.. I have both.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 18:09:07 (ZULU)



spurt, I'm growing weary of your insults towards my friends. As to your statement "I almost had a bronc stomp my head in when I was a kid", I think I may have spotted your disconnect. After examining your posts in greater detail, I recommend you check your medical records. It appears that bronc got much closer to it's mark than you give it credit for.

Just for fun, I think I'll start posting over on a hunting site. I'll let everyone there know that they're idiots and fools if they use gear that's hardened to the point it would stand up well in the worst environments this plannet has to offer. Then I'll make fun of the fact that they shoot game as far away as they do, and state that I only need to shoot a third of that distance. Maybe I'll let them all know that their rifles weigh too much, and the accurate ones are overpriced. Let's see how well I'm treated, shall we?

I'm not anti-hunting by any means. I've got a grand old sporterized custom Krag for just such a situation. I just don't like snobbish kids.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 10, 2004, at 18:27:03 (ZULU)


We're back in business!!

Apologies, my mistake.  When I wrote the scripts I did not take into account that there would be more than 32768 posts - the largest integer number possible.

I've changed that - we are now going again.

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 20:08:55 (ZULU)


Marius, glad to know it wasn't me ;-)

I was thinking noboddy ELSE should have taken the shut-up statement to heart! HA!

Of course, now you know what you've done to my inadvertently overinflated sense of self worth, right? DOUBLE HA!

Beware the chihuahua that roars!

Sorry folks, that was for my own amusement.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 20:33:04 (ZULU)



spurt,

You should read some history. Them cow towns and trails all had to do with cows from Texas, Wyoming, and Montana mostly. Even the ones from north were bred from Texas stock. The only locals that liked em were whores and gamblers.

Once upon a time I used to live in the bumpy brown part of the country. If you want a shot at mule deer or elk inside three hundred he may not be there when you get there. It can be a long way between ridge lines. The walk is longer and harder than the shot. Your rifle and scope better be spot on, tracking wounded game in the high desert is only for the young and stupid. If there is a doubt don't take the shot. Walk some more. There ain't no tree stands. You find a trail, look for sign and follow it.

Mike Wiseman Email this member See this member's profile
Harrison, Oh, - Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 20:58:03 (ZULU)


Marius/Ken- I seem to notice a missing post.  If you've banned this clown, please delete this post also.

Spurrit-before the DR double clutched I thought I saw a post where you made some comment about if you travel several thousand miles you should have the brains to check your zero.

THAT'S THE POINT, DAMMIT! You may have noticed that posters here may (not will) be referred to as "hawgs".  That's a reference you obviously don't understand the significance of.  Many of those on this site do not have jobs where checking the zero is possible when deployed into their area of operation. And the price of a miss can be astronomical. That's why many folks here buy damfool proof scopes and mounts. Leupold may be a bit pricy, but if you dial X MOA, you get X MOA-no more, no less.

You wanna pot 4 legged critters, there are many brands of scope mounts & bases that will work.  I've had excellent luck with S&K/Conetrol-put one set on in 1969, it's never moved despite some interesting stock dings my kids wouldn't explain.  Leupold standard mounts/rings have been good to me also.  Can't say the same for Redfield.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 21:44:10 (ZULU)


Kevin, this is for you.  A little bragging with a touch of humor ( I hope)  So yesterday I am at doctors office.  I am being treated for a torn bicep. Nurse and doctor test my grip strength.  When I squeeze the grip strength device, with right hand, nurse lets out "F..k!" as the thing reads 195lbs.  I say what?  The response is "We have tested thousands in here including several pro football players and you have the record for the most grip strength"  Just as I am starting to feel pretty good, the nurse says " I bet you where something when you where young"  Wind goes out of the old sails right there. Well effort went way down after that. This old man just left without much else to say.  Youth is wasted on the young.

Back to slings and rehab.

For info I go under knife for another knee surgery 26 August so I may be out of touch for around a week.

You all take care.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 22:31:57 (ZULU)



SPURRIT WROTE: "Guess I'll hafta use diplomacy to keep neighbor's dog off my lawn!"

Well ... Dis ole Coonass thinks somebody like you prob'ly gonna have about as much luck wit' dat as you are wit' finding dem damn mystery scope mounts.

Embrasse mon tcheue craquer le poignet.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 22:48:28 (ZULU)


Picatinny Pete;

 The Howa and Weatherby Vanguard are the same thing. They are made by Howa.

Jim McNabb;

 What's the website for the French and Indian War? Hey, another war the French lost!

Joe S;

 What kind of '03 is your rifle?

Gabriel;

 Are you at Keesler? If so, did you contact me once about shooting at the Pascagoula DCM range?

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, August 11, 2004, at 23:57:33 (ZULU)


Jody-  My 03 bench gun is a Springfield and the sticker in the butt plate leaves me to believe it was customized in 1955.  A web site check on the serial number placed it's production in 1934.  It has a 20" custom straight profile heavy barrel (1 3/16") and is chambered in 250 Savage.  The stock is a custom walnut stock, heavy and flat on the fore-end and a Monte Carlo check piece.  Checkering on the fore-end and pistol grip areas is fine and still excellent with double boarders.  The bolt has been polished in the white and the handle replaced with a sleek turned down type.  The action is incredibly smooth and quick.  It has double set adjustable brass triggers.  Standard pull is 2.75 lbs, set pull under 6 ounces (that's as light as my scale would go).  The bottom of the pistol grip has a scroll engraved sterling cap with a trap door.  The trap door opens to a small chamber that looks like it holds a GI greese pot (at least one  fits like it was made for it).  On the bottom of the comb there is a long spring loaded blued trap door that covers a jeweled cartirdge holder inleted into the stock, for 4 rounds. Butt plate is heavy steel polished in the white with medium checkering.  It's set up with Unertl mounts and all the work looks like it was done by a master.  Don't ask the $$$ lets say no one was bidding on the old rifles that day and my cousin had to bid against me once just to validate the auction (there was a two bid minimum rule).  Now I just need to find out who that crossed key logo belonged to and get a proper Unertl or Lyman scope.

Take care,

Joe S.        

Joe S. Email this member See this member's profile
Dago, Arnoldland, US of A - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 00:35:39 (ZULU)



Gents,

Home at last.  The greeting at the airport was quite a show---the wife, kids...and the folks hanging around---hugs from the family and applause from the crowd.  Rather felt important there for a minute.  Of course, reality comes in the form of a nasty diaper...where the little one gets the mess from is beyond me!  Yeah---it is great being home.  

Been busy lately too, as you can imagine.  Haven't posted since Kuwait.  Too much re-unitin' going on 'round heeah...

I see the pie fights in gear as usual...

Bobby--Blake and I are being forced out to see you for a basic rifle course.  I'll go by the website and see when we can swing in.  Seems "father and Son" time is a must in her eyes.  Heheh.  I married a good 'un.

Bruce:  My hold bags get delivered o/a sep 9; some of the boxes will turn your way.  Not enough to really thank you, but a couple of things to show around.  

It is great to be home.  Now, when this rain stops, me and the boy have a pile of ammo to burn thru.  The range is a bit overgrown though.  15 months makes the weeds grow---and kids too.  My god....are these really my kids?

Damn good to be in the good ol' US of A again!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 00:50:59 (ZULU)


Major Joe,

Welcome home SIR!!!!!  Glad you're back home in one piece.  Thanks for all you have done.  It is most definitely appreciated.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 01:00:04 (ZULU)


Stock packs-shameless plug here: they're available at the site PX.  DUH!!!

Undude: OUCH! The kiddies can be so cruel.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 01:37:59 (ZULU)


Joe S;

 It sounds like a beauty. I love '03s.

Joe M;

 Thank you for a great job and welcome home Trooper!

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:13:13 (ZULU)


JOE !!!! Welcome home brother !!!!!!!!

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:19:27 (ZULU)


Gouch

Well Stated

If nothing else Supprit sure is windy and opinionated

Looking at the prior posts  It seems like the Pissing people off is the only way Supprit can get attention.

Maybe we ough to consider letting him rant by himself to himself instead of feeding his self defeating rambling  IMHO

Back to lurking and learning

Semper Fi

bomac Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:40:49 (ZULU)


Joe,

WELCOME HOME! Deal stands sir..anytime you and Blake want to come..come on. If we dont' have a class going and you want to come, come. Welcome here anytime.

Ok..On a shooting note.....This is for those that have actually done the following and have recorded the data:

When shooting into a wind blowing straight line from target to you, with wind speed above 15mph, and at ranges greater than 600 yards, what did your bullet do?

Also interested in hearing about shooting in the above conditions, when the wind is blowing from the shooter to the target, straight line.

Now..my RECORDED data in the above..Shooting 168 SMK's, 44.4 grn Varget, Muzzle approx. 2600 fps.

Shooting into the wind I have to dial down 2 MOA at 1k.

Shooting with the wind I have to dial up 2 MOA at 1k.

Anyone else ever had this strange occurance?

Bobby Whittington Email this member See this member's profile
Grandfield, OK, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:58:27 (ZULU)



Major Joe,  Welcome home..Job well done.  Thanks for playing Santa while you were in the sand box.

Edited for spelling

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:13:29 (ZULU)


Joe M.

Welcome home.

Thank You.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:14:38 (ZULU)


Joe M.

Welcome home, and THANK YOU!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp Email this member See this member's profile
Jamestown, ND, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:17:34 (ZULU)


Joe M. - WELCOME BACK!

I've been lurking around here since before you left and I can't believe that it has been 15 months.  I'm getting to where I'm not that good with remembering things that occured more than 15 minutes ago any more.  I'll bet there were times when you thought it was at least twice that long.  Hope that everyone in the family is in good health and you can take a little catch-up time with them before getting back to anything to serious.

Glad your back all in one piece...

You know I don't like picatinny rails either 8=), cost me $155 Canadian ($115 US) for the Steyr picatinny rail for my new Steyr LG 100 FT (air) rifle.  I got to say though, it sure is SWEET!

Back to lurking....Later,

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 03:50:32 (ZULU)


Major Joe,

Thank you, sir. Your service to our country will always be remembered here. Maybe you and Blake could make the (October) Fall Match @ Badlands as well. Would look forward to meeting you guys.

The Basic class is time well spent. You and Blake are gonna love it.

--

Mike/Undude,

Shoulda told her (in the immortal words of Augustus McCrae in "Lonesome Dove,") "the older the violin, the sweeter the music" ;)))))

BTW, I'm sending you mail, n/a.

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 04:52:29 (ZULU)



Joe M., Welcome Home...and of course Thank You...might wanna keep your mask handy for the lil presents you described from the little one though

.

Undude, good luck with your surgery..

.

BTW, anybody read "Crosshairs on the Kill Zone" yet..just finished it...pretty good book especially like the comment from a certain person id'd only as "GOOCH" in regards to women and sniping......when ya read it you'll know it....

.

Be safe all GOD BLESS THE USA

Marc Email this member See this member's profile
USA, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:00:06 (ZULU)


HUH???  Am I quoted in a book????

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:05:01 (ZULU)


Gooch...to answer your question unless there is another here it goes:

from[ Crosshairs on the Kill Zone by Craig Roberts and Charles W. Sasser ]

.

.  

               " As for female snipers..."Sure, why not? "  sarcastically retorted a grizzled former Marine sniper and drill instructor who preferred to be identified only as Gooch. "Makes the hide a lot more cozier. If it gets real cold, the sharing of body heat would be great..."

.

.

theres more but i thought that was rather humorous if you want the rest email me i'll get it to ya....

 

Marc Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:15:52 (ZULU)


Welcome back Joe! You have become sort of a folkhero in these parts...

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
SJ, CA, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 05:18:23 (ZULU)


Joe,

  Welcome home now reap your just deserts!! LOL!

 Mike,

    Always a pleasure talking to you, just remember not to sew under the influence of the meds...

    All that grip and palms like rose petals!!    DEFILADE!!!!

 Spurrit,

    You don't even rate "go to hell". You'll not find respect until you learn to give it.

  Bill(Two Door)

Bill Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Goodview, Va, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 06:01:59 (ZULU)


Joe Welcome Home...

Mike, If you still have the warranty on that body take it back under the Lemon Law... HAHA Just funning with ya...

Dirty Steve, OUt

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 07:47:53 (ZULU)


Welcome back Joe!

I hope you kept notes from your foray into logistics, from what I've read so far it would make an interesting book to be published presumably after your have left the employ of Uncle Sam.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 11:13:24 (ZULU)


Major Joe,

Thank you Sir, and welcome home.

Bobby,

My data is effectively the same as yours but it also came from your range. I have data from Ind. but the winds weren't that strong, it still shows the same trend.

BKS,

Did you call him a cracker in french?

Mike,

Good luck w/ the surgery.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 11:17:53 (ZULU)


hey all, got a question that might seem a little bone headed to you all but I can't seem to find an answer to it on the net.  I am trying to build a M24 the problem I am having is with the action I know it's a 700 action but is it a ADL, BDL, VS version type of action or are all these one and the same and the difference is in the barrel and stock combinations?  Any help you guys can provide with this would be greatly appreciated.

Jody

Yes it was me who contacted you while I was serving overseas I am home now and am intrested in the range what types of ranges do they have there and what distances are they???

Gabriel Email this member See this member's profile
Biloxi, MS, Keesler - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 13:11:28 (ZULU)


Joe... glad to see you out of harms way, I was a bit uneasy at times about it all. Now if I could just get my other buddy back. But... oh well.

Bobby Whittington; yes, I've had that happen. My range sets n and s. and the wind changes from one direction or other over night many times. The short barrel on my .308 would just barely go subsonic with match kings when the wind was 20mph or more out of the south. Then the next day it would be ok and half the group size. I finally cured the problem with A-max's 168 that would stay supersonic up to 50mph or so. That was a 1000 yard observation but it taught me to pay attention to things a little closer. I don't think the ballistic programs will bare that out but you could convince me real easy. Some time a barometer shift with a storm can cause some extra turret twittering along with it so watch out for that as a double factor that can make the effect seem more than it is.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 13:57:49 (ZULU)


Joe - welcome back. Thank you for your contribution and your service to your country. I hope to run into you somewhere, so I can shake your hand, and thank you in person.

Bobby, last year at the Texas Long Distance Championship at Mineral Wells, one day we fired from the 1000 yard line with a tailwind that was running in the 15 - 20 mph range. I was firing Sierra 175 Matchkings at around 2675.

My bullets were going HIGH by about a half minute, and so were those of other shooters I talked to. We speculated that the wind was being angled up over the target berm, and raising the impact point, but of course we had no real way to test that. But the phenomenum was there, nevertheless.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 14:13:11 (ZULU)



Major Joe, WELCOME HOME Sir!!! Glad your home and in one piece! Look forward to buying you a few at BadLands! Yeah the October match is a great idea, one way to get some of these others to BadLands just to shake your hand and personally say THANK YOU!!

Sarge and the entire Sniper Country Staff!!

Oh and speaking of Roberts and Sasser "Crosshairs on the Kill Zone" Those of you that have been to BadLands and know Steve he gets a mention on pages 266 and 267.

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 14:35:21 (ZULU)


Hey Joe, Glad to hear you made it back safe, Hope everything is as you expected. Things are getting interesting here. Met a couple of guys since you rolled that I think you would have got along with. Tell the Family hello. There was a break at 17 the other night, things got interesting.

Gents if you have some info for the 338 LapMag that you don't mind sharing you can send it to d_morgue@mailcity.com Appreciate the help

In life you tend to get what you pay for. If you buy a 70 dollar scope, thats what you get- 70 dollars worth of scope. If you want the best, then you need to be willing to shell out some coin. It really is almost that simple.

Keep your powder dry

Morgue Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 15:22:33 (ZULU)



Spurrit.

You said...

"Pete, BITE ME!!! If you wanna buy a coupla overpriced horses, I'll be happy to drop that much cash;"

You couldn't be more wrong if you stayed up all night and worked on it.  If you wanna plow a field, then get a cheap, swayback plow horse - but if you wanna win the race, or you MUST win the race, get all the horsie you can beg, borrow, and steal for.  This is a RACE website, not a PLOW website.

You have been given some VERY GOOD information from some of the best longrange shooters around - and you got it FOR FREE - don't be a rude-ignorant-ass, and thumb your nose at these guys.  They have earned the right to give this information, you haven't earned the right to flip them the bird!!

You wanna see what an overpriced horses will shoot - drop me your direct e-mail address and I will send you a photo of a 3.5" computer disk and the rifle that did it - I gari-damn-tee it will get your attention...

...and it ain't no steeenkin Bushnell 4x12x40 - speaking of which, I still have one for sale - got it as a Thanksgiving gun club door prize - it's been forsale for 16 years - I just haven't met anyone dumb enough to buy it yet.

If you hate Picatinny rails and all the rest of that overpriced junk, what the hell are you doing here??

You might think of gettin' yo' shootin' info from:

http://www.300yd_deer_huntin'_country.com/

and for equipment, don't forget to go to:

http://www.cheap_shootin'_shit_fer_sale.com/

And don't bother trying to insult me - I have thicker skin than all these bumz put together... ;))

Gooch says that I have the personality of 60 grit sandpaper - but that's only cuz he met me on a good day ;))

-

'yote Bate...

You still crack me up - and very well said.

" I believe I have failed to convey a point here somewhere.

I think the line is...

"I think we have a failure to communicate" ;)- CHL

-

Bravo...

Drop a dime on me - I have spent $12,500 already, and haven't even been in court yet - her lawyers are stalling every step of the way - looks like it will be a year before I can get Ruggus Rattus into a new school and away from her... what was it that Shakespear said about laywers???

-

Vaughn...

"As for 72 virgins, I believe that is just a busy morning in Port Arthur."

HA!... they ain't got no virgins in Port Aurther, they get wore out over by Spindle Top oil fields, by the time they are 11 ;))

-

John...

"Anyone know how or if you can determine a Mod. 29's age by serial #?"

Yeah - Call S&W, they are good about that stuff.

-

Ginger...

You still wearin' that thread worn red outfit with the matchin' pumps and purse to the matches?

And I didn't sent you no steenkin' virus' emails - ;))

I get back "rejects" from webmasters for time slots when my computer was off for days :((

I just got an e-mail from 'yote Bate, with his return address, but it wasn't from him.

-

Dewman...

As to yo' Dumbassed question - the MK4-M3 really NEEDS a flat base.

Sure, there are guys that have gotten away with a 20 moa base, but that's just because of the variables in receiver specs, and their rear bridge was a little low, and they just got in under the wires.

The M3-LR NEEDS a 20moa base (and there are guys that have gotten away with a flat base for the same reasons, because their bridge was a little high).

You gotta remember that the finishing of a rifle receiver is done BY HAND, on a belt sander, so no two M700, or M70, receivers are the same :((

ALL have a bit of built in error from the "Blueprint" spec - sometimes in the right direction and sometimes in the wrong direction - that's why when the M3 scopes are on the "proper" base, they will have some leeway at both ends of travel, and you get the full range centered in the elevation tube.

The M3 series are designed to have a range of about 70 moa total elevation - the MK4-M3 has a unique optical tilt built in... so that when you mount it on a flat base, and zero it at 100 yds (cap OFF), you will have aproxmatly 10 to 15 moa below "0", and 55 t0 60 moa above zero.  When you install the cap, you will have the full range of the ballistic cap.  The MK4-M3 was designed this way cuz there were NO tapered bases at that time.

But when the M3-LR came into being, the probems started.  You can't make a variable scope with a built in optical taper... so when the "LR" scopes came out, guys were complaining that they couldn't gat past 600 to 700 yds in standard bases.  All of a sudden (in the late 90's) enterprizing folks began making tapered bases for these puppies.

And that's a fact, Jack ;))

With the MK4-M3, I use the Lupita MK4 one piece flat base for Rem receivers - and they are lower than the Badgers!!!

... for M70 receivers, I use Lupita's two piece "QD "style bases.  Very rugged and no hassles either.

With the M3-LR scopes, I use Badger bases.

I have Badger bases, but remember that they are NOT the only game in town.

Not a dumb question - there is a ton of confusion on this subject, and it keeps going around and around.

-

Ken...

Are you coming up this way to Groton soon - the door is open to you, and the fridge is full.  Same goes for some of youz other bumz that are in the CT area.

-

Pat (HA!)

OK, when you run away from home, you can hole up in my basement - it's almost finished and is it cool...!!!.  I got the hidden gun room (you can stand in front of it and see nothing but a brick wall), most of my loading machines are there, and I got a TV and a big Hi-Fi system.

Loadin' don't get more decadent than this.

I gots a bunch of forms from the BATF on my desk... If I can get past the zoning board, I'll probably be in the ammunition manufacturing business this winter... not the same ol' same ol'... stuff you can't get from the other guys :))

-

True story...

Last week my lady (who LOVES to entertain on our deck), had a bunch over from work (the radio relay league), along with myself, and a friend of mine (David, who is a long time longrange shooter).  This twerp from her office says,

"... and my friend is a sniper in Iraq and he was so good in sniper school, that they issued him a .44 mag rifle so he could shoot them farther!"

David and myself just looked at each other with straight faces, and then david said... "That 44 magnum is one hell of a rifle. I was thinking of getting one, but it's way too much gun for me".

I need a nappie!

-

'lito

No Cats, no Joy!! :((

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 15:43:30 (ZULU)


Major Joe

Welcome home, we are all gratefull for your service, your safe return has been the subject of many prayers. I hope to shake your hand and thank you in person one day.

Mr. Mussack

It sounds like congratulations are in order you should be proud of an accomplishment like that. BTW how is the new rifle workin out you know the one with the jersey cow paint job ;) LOL. Are you planning on attending the fall match at Badlands? I will make it if work permits. Heck I still aint got all the red dirt outa my gear from the last trip to Badlands.

Gentlemen

Do any of you guys use JB Paste, it was recomended by a friend of mine not long ago. I have tried it so far I have used well over 30 patches of the stuff (followed by an oily then a clean patch) and they are still coming out black as coal. Either what I was using before wasnt gettin all the copper out or this sh*t is meltin my barrel. I was told it was plenty safe for my bore but I'm startin to wonder...

If I dont vent this one somewhere I'm gonna blow a gasket!

 My kid comes home from high school tuesday and says she has an art project. She wanted to do a paintin of a scene from a Tolkien book the art teacher said no nothing that included violence or weapons. Using typical moronic leftwing logic the teacher says since weapons arent allowed in school then art depicting them wont be allowed. I am wondering if they can draw lions and tigers since ya damn sure not allowed to bring them to class either. By this logic then they cant draw the crucifiction of Christ since it was violent and the romans were armed.They cant draw an American soldier in full battle gear, or a police officer in uniform! I wonder if this leftwing liberal puke ever considered the fact that the only reason smug tree huggin commie b*#@hes like herself  sleep safe at night is cuz good men with guns are watchin over them!!!!!!  I send my kids to school to get educated not indoctrinated.  Sorry about the off thread     RANT OFF

Robert Adcock Email this member See this member's profile
Far East, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 16:05:28 (ZULU)



Robert...

There are THREE things that will put black on a patch.  Powder fouling (comes out easy with your favorite bore cleaner), throat carbon (nearly impossible to remove), and powdered steel.

Jacket fouling comes out either blueish-green with a solvent, or copper colored if taken out with an abrasive.

At this point (after 30 patches of the stuff), you are seeing the insides of your bore coming out on the patch... as Martha Stewart would say (from Club Fed), "And that's NOT a good thing".

-

I also hear you on the school thing - my Ruggus Rattus is in a snootie school, and the left wing dribble he gets makes me wanna barf.  When he was in the early grades (1st through 3rd), he was dying to have me take him shooting - I told him he'd have to wait til he was 10.  At 9, his mom moved him to a yuppie town where a cheap fixer-upper house was $600,000 (ouche - that's where my money went :((

When he was 10, I bought him a beautiful Winchester M-310, and he just looked at it with a Ho Hum look.  I asked him what was wrong cuz he had always said he wanted to shoot, and he told me, "My teacher taught us that people with guns just kill all the baby animals"... I damn near puked.

Needless to say, we have gotten past that, and he loves to shoot, but there is no midground with these sons (and daughters) of whores.  They  push their agenda to any captive group they can find, including the young, impressionable students.

-

'lito

No cats, no Joy :((

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 16:24:09 (ZULU)


Catshooter

Thanks for the input about the cleaning paste, thats kinda what I was startin ta think. Also its good to know that Im not the only one gettin bent about this liberal crap that so called public schools are pushin. When did public education become LIBERAL DEMOCRAT INDOCTRINATION CAMP ?

Robert Adcock Email this member See this member's profile
Far East, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 16:59:39 (ZULU)


Litto/Catman, the man who made me a Premiere Reticle fan for life.  Damm its great to see you back on here.

Major Joe, glad you are home safe.

Dirty Steve, I tried to take the body back but they claimed to much time had passed and customer mistreatment. Hard to argue with either.

Gooch, you must be a professor.  Professor Gooch?  I think someone may have a new name.

Bobby, I need to hit you off line. Plan on spring trip, driving out to see George and really want to see your facility on way.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 17:49:42 (ZULU)


Gents,

Joe, WELCOME BACK to the U.S. of A.! Remember, vividly, the times I did the same. Brings new meaning to the phrase "there's no place like home". Enjoy!

Gooch-san: Hmmm, NOT exactly a politically correct quote, but your point is well taken...;-)

Rates up there with the old "when they're off their back they're out of their MOS" (I'm gonna rot in hell for that one!).

Great to see posts again. Nice to see that someones infantile crap doesn't really effect the list in the long run.

Spurrit, if you're still around try sitting down, shutting up, listening, and learning. Although, Bravo may have been closer to the issue when he said the horse came a bit closer than you thought.

Brian, got a package ready to go to "my" lads. How we doin' overall?

Things are getting dicey at OSP. Finding evidence of planning for a major uprising/riot. The CPL that brought in cell phones, knives, tobacco, and god knows what else didn't do us any favors. Our security threat group is on it, as are the State Police. Will keep you informed of the goings on...looks like a powder keg waiting for someone to light the fuse.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:02:51 (ZULU)



You know you have an education problem when your kids social studies book has the 2nd Amendment circle with a Slash though the circle. And it says "Does no apply!"

Catter Man; you know that phrase was the first one I thought of but I decided to stay as diplomatic as I could. Actually that one still does apply. I got one of those e-mails from Gooch yesterday myself.

IF ANYTHING SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT SMALL ANIMALS IT'S A SCAM OF SOME KIND.

IF IT MENTIONS NIGERIA OR ANY OTHER AFRICIAN COUNTRY HIT THE DELETE BUTTON.

IF IT'S FROM ANYONE PROMOTING ANY KIND OF FOREIGN INVESTMENT OR OFFERS YOU ANYTHING THAT'S BETTER THAN YOU THOUGHT  SENT A SNIPER!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:18:11 (ZULU)



From my IT department and the anti fraud crew that slaves there.

  1. You have not won the lotto and if you did they wouldn't notify by e mail.

  2. Your bank or anyone else's will not freeze your account and then ask for confirmation of your numbers. (they already know what your numbers are) No matter how good the logo mimicks the real banks.

  3. If it's from anyone in Nigeria wanting to transfer funds through your bank ask them to put it in a plain brown bag and mail it UPS.

  4. If it's a cashier's check from an Africian particularly Nigerian bank,  it's no good even if your bank takes it and credits your account.

  5. "Earnest Money!" is a scam don't send it and don't refund any money that's over paid in excess of $5.00 that's a scam too.

  6. If somone offers you more for your car than you are asking run like hell.

  7. You Penis is as long as it's going to get.

  8. There are no Herbs that will replace Viagra and you can't get the real thing by mail without a prescription. If you do it will be delivered by a DEA chopper.

  10. If you get scammed don't think the FBI will help you.

  11. If it's from someone who want to invest in your country and has a great list of raw/great products. Forget about it, it's a scam.

  12. If it's from someone you know or have known in the past and has an attachment don't open it under any circumstances unless you can confirm that it's absolutely virus free and came from that party.

  13th IF someone is fraudently using your credit card. YOU WILL NOT BE NOTIFIED by E-mail. CALL YOUR CARD COMPANY (not using the number on the e-mail).

  14 IF you get something by e-mail that sounds ridiculous or ironic go to the urban legends website and search it out before you send it on as gospel.

  15 Turn off your notification process that sends notices to all the people who have sent you a virus. 69% of them are not even from that box and your slowing down the net. Don't waste your time.

  16. If you want to contact someone you know buy a envelope and q stamp or call long distance if it matters at all.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:41:07 (ZULU)


Jody:

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/colonial/rogers/bio.html

And  

http://users.erols.com/candidus/orders.htm

This one is his standing orders for his Rangers . . . .still works today 225 years later.

OH, BTW Spurrit, IF, you haven't noticed . . You've pissed off most on the list, now, if the hair stands up on the back of your neck that means one of um have you in the crosshairs.  Ain't no use in runnin' now . . . You'll just die tired.

Good to have you home Joe.

Brian:

Embrasse mon tcheue craquer le poignet???

I'm the resident Cracker on this list!!  This boy ain't no Cracker he'd have to be a McSpurrit 'n that ain't gona happen!!

Better go. . . I hear th' boss acommin'

Later,

Jim McNabb outa Clain MackAlpine  We been killin' Anglo-Saxons 'n English fer 2000 years!!

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington , Texas, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:41:39 (ZULU)



Rosterfarians,

The Spurrit has been spirited away.

I sent him a note asking him, in a nice way I thought, to stop pissing and moaning about only wanting to shoot 300 yards and other things.  I asked him to cool down since he was not in line with the spirit of what we want the Roster to be.

He told me "F*CK YOU" and some other nasty things about all you nice people.  Probably cleaned out some of his stuff before he was spirited away just now.

So, please stop referring to him and all his posts, and let's get back to our normal bitching and fighting :-)

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 19:49:00 (ZULU)


Jim,

You can't see my email address when you click on my name?  That's the whole idea!  You click on the name of the person you want to send email to and fill in the details.  Then you send the email.  You still don't know what the email address is you sent that mail to.  You'll only know when/if that person then replies.

This is an attempt from my side to curb some of the span we've all been receiving.  Hope it is working a little bit at least.

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 21:39:38 (ZULU)



WES: Doing well ... 47 platoons. Sinister asked me to send a list of the lessons learned, gear sent and requested, blah, blah to the Infantry school at Benning. Interesting stuff after I put it all together for them. Hope it helps somebody.

CRACKER: Actually ... it was Cajun mon ami ... and I just wished him "well".

(Don't like using the F word  ... "french")

BK

Speaking of the F word ... Ever since 9/11 and every time I see or think of the Statue of Liberty ... I can't help but envision her with her arms outstretched at her sides, palms out, looking towards France with this incredulous look and saying WTF ? !!!!!!!!!!

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 22:26:07 (ZULU)


Joe,

Welcome home!

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 22:33:36 (ZULU)


Marius; good job. Everyone just don't fit in this cracker box castle. Guess I'll just keep on keepin on in spite of the loss. Guess its just the Cowboy in me!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 23:06:21 (ZULU)


Joe M.

Welcome home. Enjoy the weather it has been a true Wisconsin summer so far.

JLU - ZULU out.

Joe Udelhofen Email this member See this member's profile
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 00:31:37 (ZULU)


Major,

Welcome home sir!  We appreciate your service.  Thank you.  Enjoy your time with your family.

PJC Email this member See this member's profile
Upstate, SC, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 00:53:19 (ZULU)



I just came into possession of a Savage .222 from the mid 70s...

The barrel is way light and not bedded, trigger feels like crap and the detachable magazine is clunky to insert / remove.

The glass is Bausch and Lomb, but the scope has no adjustment turrets...the scope mount has a crazy mechanism that allows for height and windage elevation...the mount looks like crap but the optics are absolutely fantastic...very bright and clear.

Has anyone out there redone one of these?  I'd love to convert it into an LTR type rifle (med profile barrel / .223).  I'd love to hear about any lessons learned.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 02:17:21 (ZULU)


OK, I've been gone for a while but who in the hell is Spurrit, and why is he such an idiot?

Did you say son boy?

Hold hard guys!

Rick Boucher Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 02:57:17 (ZULU)


Hey Snot bro!  Welcome back.  Spurrit is my new training aid.  He is teaching me patience and understanding for the developmentally challenged...  

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:17:39 (ZULU)


Hey Snot bro!  Welcome back.  Spurrit is my new training aid.  He is teaching me patience and understanding for the developmentally challenged...  

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:17:46 (ZULU)


OOOOPS.  SPurrit WAS my training aid.....Shiite!!!

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:24:43 (ZULU)


Dam Gooch, double taping is old timers disease actions!  Or has your training aid actually gotten to you that much? :)

Hold Hard!  Don't let him out of your sights. Dope it, dial it, and Dump him.

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:30:58 (ZULU)


About the reference to female snipers!!!!  I resent that quote!!!! I was never a DI!!!

:-)

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:35:24 (ZULU)


Mistah Gooch (or is it now PROFESSOR GOOCH?),

Did you mean to say that you RESEMBLE that remark?  ;o)  I got nosey and ordered the book this morning.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:48:23 (ZULU)


Gooch the DI.  Never did see one of those hats when it didn't have a big prick under it.  (Very old joke about a Marine at the beach).

Just met a bunch of female sniper instructors Gooch.  They only teach and only teach sniping because they have experience teaching.

Yes, that was correct I think.

Saw a neat little hide site too.

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
F, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:56:43 (ZULU)


Dam Gooch, I didn't know you went back to Hot Springs.  I just spent four days at the village two weeks ago.  We could have shared a brew or two.

Next trip if the gods smile on us.

Hold hard!

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 03:59:02 (ZULU)


Rick!!! No Shiite!!!!  Damn dude.  That would have been cool as Shiite!  Dang it!  Hey if your people here ever need anything let me know okay?

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 04:02:50 (ZULU)



Hi Major Joe!

"Thanks so much" seems like such an inadequate expression for all you and your family have done and gone through these last few years since you came to the DR, but From my family to your's, Thanks for all the sacrifices that you all have made for the rest of us. You and your family have been in many prayers and thoughts since you left for Iraq and it's a great relief to everyone that you are back and safe with your family.

Please let us know when you are going to Badlands with Blake. I think that Bobby will have to get ready for quite a crowd when you show up. I know that I would like to be there to say "THANK YOU" in person and shake your hand, if I'm able to.

Take care, Tony Burkes

edited for spelling, duh.

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 04:25:32 (ZULU)


Rick; So good to hear from you man. The site has not been the same without your gentle charm. Ugly you may be... but such a charmer upi be. What a week! Ole Spurit sure started a mass exodus back to the promised land. All our children are coming home.

Gooch, I ain't got much memory left but I remember that little remark in question :). BUT I'd never accuse you of being a DI for fear your KABAR might come out! This is good Doc! Man builds the finest houses in all of Persia for years and years. Screw one goat and from then on he's Ahab the goat man! Your buddies will help you get through this Goocher!

Craig has been scanning us again. That was almost a direct cut and paste. Haven't seen or Heard from Mr. C. Roberts in about 3 years when he was down Tulsa way. High Craig if your lookin in again. Come paste something on us.

Jim; is that a 1" tube? Scope wouldn't be a B&L would it?  I don't know if that has much potential or not. Some of those old ones were pretty much plumbing.

Mike M.; let us know if we can do anything for you while your laid up. Dang I bet your gettin tired of that stuff.

Bravo; hope this IS the last one.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 05:13:05 (ZULU)


Hey guys--

My wife likes shooting my AR, which has an A2 stock.  The only problem is she's about 4' 11" and the stock is too long.  I've been thjinking about getting her an AR with a collapsable stock in September.  I'm also considering a CZ 527 carbine or Ruuuuu... (you know what I mean) compact rifle, .223 as well.  Any opinions what would be better?  

I want to stick w/ 223 for now for the light recoil and commonality.  Also, in terms of maintenance, a bolt action would be easier for her to learn to maintain.  What say the gurus?

Steve

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NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 11:12:44 (ZULU)


Holy Shiite,

Who left the barn door open? I'm seein people I ain't seen in years.

'lito,

Did ya get all them parts ya wanted? Let me know if not.

Bravo and 'lito,

Back in 89 and 90 my divorce went almost 15 months and took 50% of the retained earnings on the corp balance sheet. Luckily no kids were involved. I considered myself lucky at the time.

Marius,

Thank you sir. Good shot.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 11:20:31 (ZULU)


John from Indiana-

Did you just accuse Sain of being a French speaking, Brie eating, wine sipping blue blood al J F'n K?  LOL

Joe-

Welcome home, thank you.

Steve

steve burris Email this member See this member's profile
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 11:48:07 (ZULU)


Jody, thanks mate.. i am looking for alternatives to the Remington 700, i dunno if i just got bored with em or what, but i'm getting interested in Savages and the Howa, gonna see if i can find one used over here, i wish i had never sold mine. I see weatherby are offering some customisation, aftermarket up grades for thier vanguards, quite interesting. The more i look at savage shooters.com and some of the links on there the more i lean towards owning a savage too.. maybe i got bitten by the gadget bug and like the idea of swapping savage barrels..

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 13:36:50 (ZULU)


Greetings all...

  Back after 60 days on the road and glad to see this place hasn't changed...Shot lots of PDs, did some outstanding fishing in Idaho, introduced my city raised 10 year old nephew to the joys of camping and shooting in Montana and generally had a real good time just being out and about in the West..Here for two weeks and will try to catch up on the Roster...Then off to Wyo. for six weeks @ elk camp again...

 outa here

Markwell Email this member See this member's profile
The Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 14:08:27 (ZULU)


Steve B.

Naw, he don't sip nothin!

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 14:25:27 (ZULU)


Speaking of Savage rifles, my partner and I put together the new .308 win rifle (I can't remember the model) with a 26" barrel, a McMillan stock and their new "Accu-trigger". We put a Leuplod Mk 4 M1 LR with the Gen II Premier reticle, 4.5x14x40 on it (with Leupold base and rings...).

We were shooting in the barrel, shoot it..clean it..shoot it..y'all know the drill. In about 25 rounds, we had it shooting a one hole group at 100 yrds. The rifle sells for around $700 so it won't break the bank buying it. We're going to put some padding on the cheek rest to make it a bit more comfortable and raise the eye relief. If you're thinking of Savage rifle, you might look at this one. The barrel is free floated, it has two sling studs for mounting the Harris bi-pod (or what ever you might choose) and a nice recoil pad. It's light so the recoil is a bit more noticeable, (around 10 pounds) but not a problem. Time will tell about durability and the such, but for now, it shoots great.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 14:59:14 (ZULU)


Lito, Long time no see. Guess the lady's cat next doot is all out of kittens.

Robert, Have the tyke draw what every he wants to draw. First Ammendment says we can. Heck the government sponsors some stupid art projects so it must be ok...

Mike, Obviously you didn't get your bod from Mike Dillon.. Haha

Brian, I eat brie but dont speak no French. I recommend you stop using that heathern languge or your dog may run away from home out of shame. Not wanting anyone to think he's owned by a Frog.

That guy that don't post here any more was on the SP site a while back wanting to know how to get started setting up Sniper Contests. I think he came here with a chip on his shoulder..

Dirty Steve,Out

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 15:09:09 (ZULU)


Lito, I now wear a nice Black dress with matching handbag for formal matches. I have a nice Lavender one with a paisley hand bag for practice and local events. I know you didn't send the virus. I just wanted to warn everyone that the pricks were at it again. And my Norton didn't pick it up.

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 15:25:38 (ZULU)


Indiansinger, Sounds like a 10FP.. Does it have the cheap black plastic stock? If it does that probably what it is.  I have one in 223 that shoots to beat the band. I'm going to be convert it to a 260 Remington soon.

Dirty Steve, Out

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 15:35:56 (ZULU)


Gentlemen

 Just got the word I am headed to Vegas very soon, I havent even had time to shoot since I got back from the last project. I am gonna try to get a little trigger time while I am there does anyone know of any good places around there to shoot ?

Bobby Whittington

 My trip out west will take me very near your place, I wont have time to stop by on the way out, but on the way back I might take you up on the invite and stop in if your not too busy. It will probably be a few weeks, I'll check with ya when I know for sure.

 Curry and Larry schermerhorn are of the opinion that Curry's     7mm STW was was punching through some of your steel targets on the UKD's. I was kinda skeptical, did ya happen to notice a bunch a 7mm holes in your targets?

Robert Adcock Email this member See this member's profile
Far East, Texas, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 16:42:25 (ZULU)


Hello, another newbie to the site.  Long time lurker, first time poster.  I don't have a saddle, buy cheap gear, or guide fat hunters so hopefully I won't need asbestos underwear. ;)

I'm just an Army alumni (in two senses of the word) who is now a trooper on a tac team waiting for a sniper slot to open up.

There seems to be a bunch of characters on this site, so I think I will like it here.

Does this mean I can't buy guns at Walmart anymore?  hehe

Jim

JimT Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 17:11:05 (ZULU)


Thanks to everyone who supplied their information on shooting into and away from the wind. Looks like FIRED data outweighs PDA data once again!

Mike Miller - Ya hit me..I hit back! No mail in my mailbox from you, drop by anytime, but bring yer stick with you!

Tony Burkes- Yep, it would be cool to get the Roster dudes together for a welcome home party for Major Joe...Bet we can handle the people!

Robert Adcock - You know that you are welcome to stop by here anytime you want! Tell them fellers that there wasn't any holes of any calibers in any of the targets, except for the close in one on the SE 80 UKD range. That one got chewed!

Back in the spring, I posted a question about having a Roster get together here at BadLands this fall...Are ya'll up for it? 1K range shooting, 5 or 6 UKD ranges..just waiting on ya'll.

Bobby Whittington Email this member See this member's profile
Grandfield, OK, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 17:31:11 (ZULU)


Rick/Dad, cant tell you how happy I am to see you back here. Hit me off line and tell me how that new sling buckle is holding up? I am thinking of changing over.

Bill, I'm damm tired of it.  I think its just about time to retire and teach full time. I am thinking of getting some property out here so I can get guys like Gooch to come out and teach with me. Probably the only way to get some old friends together.  I am thinking of a West Coast school about 120 miles from San Francisco.  I would probably run it just one week a month and co teach with some great guys.  Only thing certain is it wont be LE and Military only.LOL

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 17:39:19 (ZULU)


Bobby,

Count me in!

Jim T. Welcome.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 18:04:50 (ZULU)


Morgue:  17?  Dude, did they serve you breakfast?  That's right on your doorstep!  Don't trust those complacent, overly lawyered kids on the towers, bro.  Keep one in the chamber...

I won't rule out October, just to come watch and shoot---but I think the spring schedule (when published) is the deal for Badlands.  I'm going to try a link up with another from here as well as settle in at home first.  And who knows what I'll be doing in the new job yet.  

Ya'll can imagine the honey-do list from an old farm house after so long, eh?  Plus, four kids (3 girlie-types) and one bathroom.  I am studying to be a plumber.  Looks easy enough.  Heheh.  Once I get that outta the way, re-indoctrinate the boy after his stay with a liberal mom on the east coast, and play tour guide to the theme parks--then we head to the Badlands...

Yeah, the Log story of the war is one to be written down, for sure.  What a charlie foxtrot.  

Thanks for the welcome back.  Take a look around; for all it's blemishes, America is a damn fine place.  I sure missed this soil.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 18:28:05 (ZULU)


JimT: Hey, don't knock wallymart!  My wife picks me up paper targets there all the time (well, she had a 15 month break).  But they have stopped selling loopies off the shelf....a bit of a backslide.  I got me a loopy 6xM8 there a while back, on sale under 200!  Hell, that was a deal.  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 18:34:42 (ZULU)


Hey Gents,

Any of you have any experience with the Alexander Arms 50 cal  Beowolf?

Keep your powder dry

Morgue Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:10:08 (ZULU)


Joe,

I'm not knocking wallymart.  It just came up here recently as a certain recently removed person who we're not supposed to talk about was yakking about buying gun stuff on the clearance rack or something like that.  I bought my son a Chipmunk at Wallyworld a couple of months ago.  I've bought cars faster than that transaction.  Saved over 25% though.

JimT Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:11:10 (ZULU)


Joe M.

May be up north in a week or so on a M/W project. I'll let ya know as time nears where and when. But if it's within a 100 miles I'm buyin! I'd like to meet Geoff as well and your son.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:53:31 (ZULU)


Morgue; neva heard of it sorry.

Jim; welcome to paradise a little right of center. Did Wally have to send a illegal alien to escort you to the car with that deadly Chipmunk?

Ain't it the shiz. Anyway light down and enjoy the weather.

Mike sounds like a good idea to me. The longer they go out there the more shooting schools are gonna be in demand the way they are making everything so hard to do without Brother interfering. I'd sure hate for the skills of you and those you mention to be lost.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 19:56:27 (ZULU)


Yote bait,

When I bought PJ's 20 ga. (at wally world) they escorted me to the door and wouldn'y let me carry it. I asked if it mattered that I was packin? He said, are ya? I said always. I walked out in front of him at his request. HA!

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 20:19:41 (ZULU)


On Wally World,

They do indeed have some weird ideas.  I often wonder how they can make so doggone much money.  My wife happens to be a support manager at the local W/M and can tell some stories that make me wonder about some folks sanity.  At least they don't post against concealed carry!

Undude,

Good luck on the surgery.

JimT.,

Welcome aboard.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 21:08:01 (ZULU)


Medicjim...

That mount is called the "Kuharski" mount and it was made by a subcontractor (Kuharski) for Bauch & lomb to sell for their scopes - B&L had the FIRST variable that didn't have the crosshairs get fatter as the power went up, and the FIRST variable that the crosshairs stayed in the center of the scope at all powers... they did it by adjusting the mount.

If you have no interest in this rig, PLEASE put it up on eBay - there are a bunch of old timers that know what it is and would love to restore some old collector's item.

-

John...

Yup, I gots parts up the Wazzoo.  I have installed the spin-on filter adapter, an adjustable oil pressure doohickie, new magneto caps and wires, and today, the little brown UPS faerie dropped off a new electric Holley racing fuel pump and regulator, and fuel pressure gauge - I gots a beautiful new Sensenich 68"x38" wooden prop, and lots of other good junk - it'll take me about a month or 6 weeks to get it all installed.  I painted the engine cage with black rustoleum and that worked out fine, but when I painted the two air-rudders with yellow rustoleum... Badd!  The damn shit got all wrinkled all over on the second coat :(((

I gotta strip it off and paint them with marine poly paint - $168 a gallon! Gimme a friggin' breako!!!

But it's kewl :)))

-

'lito

No Cats, No Joy...

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 21:40:38 (ZULU)


....."At least they don't post against concealed carry!".....

Doc, must not be a Super W/M that sells "spirits"! There is a LARGE sign on the front of our Super W/M thst states it is a fourth degree felony to carry ANY concealed weapon on the premisis. But again they sell beer and wine and this is the law in New Mexico, everywhere that sells booze of any kind, even if you are a valid CCW holder...still waiting for mine, one month and counting.  

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 21:40:58 (ZULU)


John; that's funny as hell! I had a hvy bbl Remington Varminter .220 swift one day carried by a little 5'1 manager that could hardly lift it.

Med Jim; I have the B&L 2X scope that goes in that mount but have always used it to check scope rings for true to see if they would line up. That crosshair is dead center and it shows the rings true alignment.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 22:38:31 (ZULU)



'lito,

Strip 'em to bare metal and use some of that green zinc primer and a Lacquer paint, you'll be good to go. PS, wear a respirator!

John

edit; I just bought a Ruger B'hawk in 30 carbine with the 7.5 " barrel new in box from 1973, for 250 bux! No brass b'strap but still pristine. My lucky day.

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 22:53:41 (ZULU)


It was CAJUN ... dammit. lol

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 13, 2004, at 23:29:44 (ZULU)



Stupid neighbors:

Every one has them, I know, but I just wanted to share this. I found it absolutely ponderous. Driving home from Wally World about 20 minutes ago, in a hurricane (I never said I was too bright, sometimes), the wife and I passed one of our neighbors out in her driveway with a bucket, sponge and garden hose washing her minivan. We aren't in the worst of the storm here, but c'mon.

PeteL,

I'm toying with the idea of a Savage for a project as well. I can't get over the idea of how simple they are and how good they shoot for the cash. Ugly as my neighbor's kid, but damn they shoot.

Joe,

Welcome home dammit! Offer of a big steak dinner and plenty of suds still stands when you make it down the Florida way.

'litto,

If the skin of your tail rudders is aluminum, try some Glasurit etching primer first, then Krylon the hell out of it. You will be a little better off with some aircraft paint. I used rattlecans on my rudders, but the Lycoming of mine tends to spray a bit at WOT and the Krylon keeps getting stripped by hot oil.

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
PSL, FL, US - Friday, August 13, 2004, at 23:53:55 (ZULU)


Gabriel;

 E-mail sent in regards to Pascagoula range.

Pete L;

 How about registering at Savageshooters.com? We need some more fellas from the Old World. Besides, you'll be able to ask questions and even get an inside scoop on the upcoming project. I think you'll be interested.

Jim McNabb;

 Thanks for the links.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 00:28:42 (ZULU)


Liberal teachers/schools:

My daughter had to write two book reports, fiction/non-fiction, over the summer break. For the non-fiction she picked GOD, GUNS, & ROCK'N'ROLL, by Nugent.

I expect to see the principal nice and early ; )

Bobby, I have a CMP shoot on Oct. 2nd. If you choose that weekend, Kelly and I will be there, Just a little late ; )

If Joe shows up we'll take him to McBrides, our treat!!!

Daughter just got her braces off, damn... I'll need more shotgun shells ; )

4i's Email this member See this member's profile
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 03:06:41 (ZULU)



Well I see everything is normal here.  Lito looking for cats and BRogers looking for PDs.  

Mike the sling has not been three ball bearing tested with students yet but the Israelies were interested.  :)  Gave them your web site and said DON't mention my name.  :)

Joe, hope your time was fruitful and not too challenging.  Welcome home.

Hopefully I'll pay more attention to this site this year coming then I have this last year past.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

P.S.   4i's - Read your daughter's graded papers.  I ran into a teacher that gave my daughter an F due to the content and not due to grammar.  She too wrote on the futility of gun control as preached by the liberals of this world.  Unfortunately, her teacher was all about banning ALL guns and stated flat out that the 2d ammendment was wrong.  Got that grade changed with a discussion with the principal.

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 04:01:16 (ZULU)


Bobby:

I wasn't going to comment on your question of shooting into a direct headwind or tailwind.  I thought you were too much of a gentleman to lie like that, as we all KNOW the wind "Where the Harvest Begins" is ALWAYS full value, at 15-30 mph!  Then I realized you were joking!

Joe: Welcome home, Sir! It's amazing how you realize how wonderful this country is when you're gone, isn't it?  My daughter will be headed to the sandbox in the very near future, she's been told. (88M)

AFTER she goes to Benning, if her leg holds up.

We need a gathering of the clans up in Badlands.  All this snivilization is getting to me....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Anto, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 04:22:48 (ZULU)



R.Martin,

That's why I told him to use the green zinc and Lacquer, Cessna has been doin it alot longer'n me. :)

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 04:54:48 (ZULU)


I'm up for a Badlands get together, just let it be after May when I get back to the world.  I'll bring more than a few jarhead snipers, an SF guy(former jarhead) and a few cop snipers too.  I'd post more, but I'm drunk as Hell.  Last big party before heading in-country.  Some truly outstanding people I'm heading in country with.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 06:21:07 (ZULU)


Dirty Steve,

  Yeah, that's the one. Accurate rifle. Everything else seems cheap but the barrel and reciever must be well made.

Brian,

  Just out of curiosity, what was it you told that other fella to kiss anyway? Lived in France 1961 to '63, born at Barksdale AFB, but I can't remember all that parlez vous.  :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 06:27:11 (ZULU)


Jody i might just go and do than and register over there, hardlz ever see a savage here in krautland, the krauts won't touch cheap stuff, even if it works well, they would rather pay high for a pile of crap (blaser), anyways, i have gotten quite fascinated with the savage rifles, i figure if i sell my remingtons for a decent price i can buy more savages, but i haven't quite managed to come to terms with parting with the 700's, they are sort of old friends if you know what i mean. I am also definately interested in a howa, but i will have to buy new cos i want a stainless one. Also toying with the idea of converting a remmy 700 to work the same as a savage with regards to the barrel nut, come to think about it i could probably do same with the weatherby/howa. damn ive loads of projects in mind, strapped for cashn due to construction and garden projects, maybe i better ask for some overtime. Anyways future rifles will be definately savages and howas. I have 2 mauser type projects sat in pieces at the moment too.

I also have the chance to go to Namibia for a week in October, hunt and accomodation free of charge as a thankyou for my organisation/logistics and translation activities between the German estate and the Brit sporting agent i help out from time to time. I can't afford the time away realy and i keep thinking how many damn house bricks i could buy for the cost of the damn flight, on the other side of things one should make hay while the sun shines.. To much to do, to little time to do it in and to little cash to do it with.

Been out hunting the last 2 nights, saw a decent buck on first night but couldn't shoot him due to not having a darn back stop, saw nothung at all last night, but then i forgot me bino's..

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 07:14:36 (ZULU)


Well I just got back from the funeral of my beat partner.  Sad day.  Those military/LE funerals always get to me especially when they play the pipes.  Now we drive on and start getting back to the daily grind.

At least I got the M1's working on blanks for the rifle salute by our honor guard.  They got the barrels plugged with internal blank adaptors and they just didn't work too good.  I got them running much better and all went pretty well today.  The hoot is they got them from Don McCoy.  He's one of the premire M1 builders out here and he sold them for $150 each.  Every part in them is a "wornout" match grade part.  By the look of some of his "junk" I wish I could go through his trash can.  

Steve Burris- Try an A1 stock on you AR it's a little shorter.  I like it better for general carry and use anyway. Also several companies make the even shorter "tactical" stocks.  The A1 would probably do it though and they run real cheap, only a few bucks and I think I saw some on the Emporium.

Pete L-  If we can get vacation in March my SF buddy and I will be there for the show.  It's just a matter of getting the time approved....and of course convincing the ladies they don't need to go =)  A so/so bud of mine recently got a Weathby Vanguard HB in .223.  After a trigger adjustment it shoots great.  But I kind of like Savages too...you can tinker on them.  I'll get an e-mail to you soon..for now back to eating all this delicoius jerky...

Major Joe- Welcome home bro !!!  Now make a pest of youself at all the nuddie bars ;p    

Take care all,

Joe S.

Joe S. Email this member See this member's profile
Dago, Arnoldland, US of A - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 07:21:25 (ZULU)


Injunsinger, I'm told that the floating bolt head design adds accuracy. And I believe the make there own tubes as well. Chuck Hunt has one like your and shoots very well too.

JimT. Welcome. You are quite observant about the types of fellers that hang out here. You know how there is one in every crowd, Well this is a whole crowd of them.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 07:50:23 (ZULU)


Joe i was sorry to hear about your buddy, i hope everything else is A OK your end. mate if you two can get the time off for the IWA we will have a scream.. Tell the boss you want to inspect the technological inovation of the European Firearms Industry with a view to improving your Dept's effectiveness, that should swallow  better than saying you are thinking of packing in the job to import Weizen beer into the USA.. and just a tip,, it is usual to import/export beer in beer barrels and not in your stomach !!.. Let the ladies come to Germany and send em shopping of looking at Castles or something. Sorry i haven't been up to speed on the email lately, been busy,, i will rectify the problem. Ref the Vanguard, damn i wish i had held on to my 300 win mag, ( RWS 89= same gun) i sold the sod cos i couldn't get a synthetic stock for it, its what i used to kill the bear in Northern CA. Savages seem to be the technical inovations gadget of late, getting popular with lots of aftermarket goodies, wish i had taken a look at the IWA at the savage stand, i din't bother, bugger !

Wife had her car broken into last night, and as i had used it last week my damn camera was in the glove box, she was daft enough to have hidden her purse under the damn seat, well they found that, so much for secure parking in the town, CCTV not manned at night and it aint recorded either, so why go to the expense of installing the camera?

Its time the Berlin Wall was rebuilt, only 10 feet higher and we chucked all the crap back over it thats come through since it was knocked down.

Think i need to buy a real nasty dog and leave it in the vehicle cammoed up and when some scroat breaks in he gets his balls chewed.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 15:39:26 (ZULU)


Joe, my thoughts and prayers for you and your buddies family and friends.

Rick, Israel's like the sling, yeah but how did the Palestinians like the sling? Tell the Israel's to get ahold of me anytime.  I hooked up some of them two years ago. Enemies of my enemy are my friends. Shalom. Funny got a request to purchase from Iran.  Still laughing on this end.  If we have or should have guns pointed at you no slings for you!  

Well making slings as fast as I can so I hope to have a few extras set aside for when I am laid up and cant make them next month.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 18:19:37 (ZULU)


My brother is planning to go Elk hunting in western Oregon sometime in the next year or two.  Would a 7mm Mag be adequate and what loading should he use?

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 19:47:44 (ZULU)


Seems like I owe Jim McNabb an apology.  He wants to tell me nicely my links to email the staff at the top are not in working order, and I think he wants to see my email!  Thanks Jim, that is fixed now.

Good to see some faces, I mean names, on the Roster again.  Lately I don't have much time to read unfortunately - anything, not just the Roster.  Between real paying work and standardising the whole site in order to easily do a make-over there is not much time for anything else lately.  Fortunately work is slowing down a bit to normal speed again.

See you guys around

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 20:42:15 (ZULU)


I have not used 7mm Rem on elk, but other I have hunted with have.  The 160gn premiums like the X-bullet, Failsafe, Partition, Swift A frame, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, etc are as light as I'd go.  Use 175's if you plan on using a normal cup and core bullet.  Lots of people have got it done with lighter bullets, but I'm all for erring on the side of too much penetration.  Elk can take quite a bit of killing.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 22:03:57 (ZULU)


Medicjim,

The 7 mm should work just fine on elk.  I killed my first moose with one, and it only went about 20 yards (if that far).  Like Ken said, use good bullets and a 160 grain should be fine.  My M70 really likes the Federal Premium with the 160 gr Nosler Partition.

Hit one in the main pump or the major plumbing and it won't go far.  I think most game is lost due to poor shot placement rather than inadequate equipment.

Jim

Jim T Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, USA - Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 22:28:49 (ZULU)


JimT:

Jocularity with the walmart there...any-who--so yer in Alaska?  God's country; spun around from the copper to the Gulcana over to the Big Su drainage for years.  Met my wife up there, combat fishin' sheep creek was our second date.  Lucky dawg---we always wanted to come back and stay!

Anniversery last night, Raegan's B-day today.  I tried to get the lil one a yute riffle--but wife "shot" that one down.  Harhar.  3 is a bit young I suppose.

Can't get around to clearing my range.  Wife wants gutters up on the house, and where the water needs to go, the roofline slopes up.  Old ass farmhouse!  If I put in some down-angle, the thing would be about a foot under the eaves hanging in space.  So, to do this, had to drop the spout in the center and run a crazy homemade angle of downspout pipe under the windows to get to the corner where the run-off goes.

I can't wait to try the same thing on the opposite side.  jeez.

Still have to clean the garage, string fence, build the bathroom additions, install the new kitchen, other half of the gutters, clean the stalls and I am begining to realize my wife ain't changing another diaper or doing any dishes til Christmas...heheh.  But I did out-smart her once already:  Connected the pastures around the house and made the yard a pasture.  Grass is being cut as we speak.

Time for a cold one...

The whole collection will get a once-over of Hoppes tonight.  If we can't shoot 'em, we can sure get 'em ready!

(of all things, it was my boy's idea to scrub 'em down!)

Medicjim:

Hey, what do you know about leischamiasis?  I've been steady loosing weight (intentionally, but not this fast), bleed easily, bruises from nuthin, and it all seems a bit odd as I don't normally have these problems.  I had some sand flea bites that weren't any bigger than normal--but took forever to heal.  A few are still scabbed over a month later...got me thinking it could all be related but I dunno the pathology of the non-cutaneous (and nasty) form.  

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 00:36:40 (ZULU)



Joe M.,

Here's an interesting paper and presentation done on leishamiasis in 2003 by the Israelis:

http://parasitology-soc.md.huji.ac.il/leishmaniasis.final.htm

Reloading virgin reflections on first week of loading.....

Well, I finally got around to loading my first ammo last week. I have learned many things:

1. Do not get your thumb stuck between a universal decapping die and the ram when you are making good time decapping your brass and happen to look away.

2. Case prep, as was told to me by several folks, is a mind-numbing experience.

3. It is impossible to drop a bullet seating die .002". Skips Shims will now be used.

4. Calipers are your friends until you have to measure OAL of 50 pointy things. Bullet comparitor on the way.

5. It takes half the time and noise to tumble with walnut shells AND polish.

6. No two pieces of once fired brass FL size the same. I have given up on this fact.

7. After you use the set screw to lock down the locking rings, you DO need channel locks to loosen ring and move the die.

8. Digital scales are nice, but a pain in the ass for making up less than 10 loads for testing. Balance beam much faster and don't have to be cleaned out.

9. A Winny HBV must have a tight chamber, else I am screwing up.

10. Loading for a Rem 700 and a Win 70 with the same die settings is tedious for fit.

11. I can now see why uniforming a pocket primer and deburring a flashole are good ideas.

and finally NUMBER 12.....

12. Do not cram a bullet in a sized case and shove it into a chamber to check for AOL. Bullets do get stuck.

I am going to write a loading for dummies book next year. By then I will have made every mistake known to the reloading world.

Frustrated but finally glad to be rolling my own....Bolt out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 01:11:07 (ZULU)



Joe M - I'm not all that good at parasites...especially those that are not common in the US.

The visceral (bad) form of leischamiasis appears to cause persistant fever, swelling of the spleen (just tucked under your left lower ribs, you can check yourself) and liver problems.  It is fatal if untreated.  

If you suspect any sort of parasite, a trip to the doc pronto is in order... I doubt you've got leischamiasis but loss of weight and slow clotting are not syptoms to ignore.  A blood test can tell a whole lot.

FYI - Stress can cause both or your major symptoms.  You might want to try a multi-vitamin (or Total brand cereal for breakfast) to get your immune system back up to 100%...combat environments kick the crap out of it.

Sorry I couldn't help more...

Thanks everyone on the elk loading advice.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 02:16:22 (ZULU)



John and Robert M...

I already bought the pricy stuff... it's Pettit's 'poxie.

I have had very very good experence with this family of paints, and since it was special order, it's what I'm using.  But the stuff is bullet proof, and I'll never have to do it again...

Rob...

Is your Lycoming in a plane or a boat... if it's a plane, eh!... if it's a boat, whatcha gots.

-

Rickster...

Glad your back too - now me and 'yote Bate won't feel like the only fossels around here ;)))

-

'lito

No Cats, no joy!!

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 02:32:29 (ZULU)


Joe;' do you take aspirin every day?

I'm so old I need to start diggin a hole Cat man. If I'd knowed it was gonna be like this, I'da been a lot more careless in my younger days. Doc ain'nt that right? Doc's jus a spring chicken but he'd know the truth.

Ken you watch your six if you goin in the crazy country. It be bad over there at times.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 03:12:12 (ZULU)


Bolt re: reloading

The Lee Precision lock rings with the rubber O-ring are superior to the pure metal ones, IMHO.  You can purchase them to retrofit other dies.  The rubber O-ring on the underside take the backlash out of the thread the easy way.  Just mark an index point on the die relative to the press and you can return to the same rotational position after removal without using tools.

Another neat trick is the Redding neck carbide expander.  Eliminates need to inside lube case necks, and reduces case stretching on resizing because the expander passes thru the neck *much* easier.  Nice system if you don't want to use the expander-less system for neck resizing that requires selected outside neck sizer matched to case-neck wall thickness (to produce just the right inside neck diameter).

Bart Bobbit recommends brushing residue from inside case necks (bore brush chucked into a cordless drill is a quick way).  Consistent neck tension/bullet release is one of the more subtle elements of consistent velocity, which will in turn affect long-range accuracy.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 04:38:47 (ZULU)


Joe M.,

Roger on 'yote-Baits aspirin question.  I've been on an aspirin a day for the last three years due to lousy plumbing.  Last time I saw my local M.D. I asked her about the bruises.  She confirmed the fact that aspirin therapy is one possibility and another is eating a lot of fresh fruit.  The aspirin also thins the blood and slows clotting.  I do heal slower than I used to; but I'm 67! ;o(  If I ever get my hands on the idiot that coined the phrase about "The Golden Years", he's in serious trouble.

yote-Bait,

If I had been any more careless in my younger days I probably wouldn't be writing this!  Sure was fun.  Too bad I didn't start much much earlier.

Doc

 

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 05:29:45 (ZULU)


Not bieng one for spectator sports i usualy don't pay much attention to sport on the TV..

But have you guys seen the womens beach volley ball??   cor blimey!!!

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 15:08:08 (ZULU)


Hey gang,

Have a look at the new look ... www.adoptasniper.org

Hit the forum link ...

Pretty snazzy ... thanks to Thomas at SP and Ken Good (SEAL) of Strategos Int'l.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 15:47:34 (ZULU)



Catman what you shooting these days

Mike Miller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 18:59:01 (ZULU)


Gents,

Could we stop the posts about getting older? It's hittin' close to home! At 53 I have found that what are members are saying is true...aging is NOT for the faint of heart. Still, it's kinda nice not to be led around by your XXXXXX all the time.

Have not been able to connect with my guys in Iraq for a little while. Makes me nervous. Guess we've been spoiled by internet connectivity.

Shooting with a couple buds next Friday. Looking forward to it. Hope we get enough guys were we can work movers at 200-600.

Wimmen's volleyball. Amazon's. Sorry Pete, but most are probably lesbians. (Here comes Brian with his honey, again)!

Headed for duty. More later...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 19:44:30 (ZULU)


Joe M.,

I forgot to mention that I'm NOT shedding any weight!

brian,

Damned fine website.  Keep up the good work.

Jim Mcnabb,

Yep.  You've got to be tough to get old.  Doesn't hurt if you're just a mite ornery as well.  ;o)  Hope the surgery goes well.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 19:44:48 (ZULU)


Mike - Don't know how the Palistinians liked the sling.  :)

Ken M - Stay safe and drop a couple for me.

'lito - You should know I'm not an old fossil.  Just ugly and cantankerous.  Of course some are complaining about being 53, dam youngsters. :)

Bolt - another reloading tip, stay focused on the task of removing your finger after setting a bullet on top of the case, seating is hampered by the sudden jerk of the finger away for the pressure created when you lower the die.... OW!

Joe - See a doctor anytime that you bruise without real cause AND lose weight without real cause, or more weight then you should.  While stress can cause this so can too many bad things.

Doc and other oldies - remember that "youth is wasted on the young."  I would love to live my 20s over again knowing what I know now.  Hell I would take my 30s and 40s as well!

Well get a new batch of students in tomorrow.  My how time flies when you are busier then a duck stomping our forest fires.  Which, of course explains why duck have webbed feet.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 00:58:35 (ZULU)


Rick......

Warning came a little late. Learned that lesson tonight.

ON getting older......

I'll turn 50 on 9/2. I don't regret the abuse that I gave to this old body cause I had a good time doing it. I still abuse it but dang it takes a long time to get over it. If I only had a bigger more powerful tiller I wouldn't feel like a mule. I've been told that I am supposed to have a mid-life crisis or sumpin. I wish somebody would tell me what it is so I'll know when it happens. The only thing happening now is that I get pissed off much easier, and loose patience with stupid people quicker.

Pete.....

Some nice tight booties on them volley ball gals. Don't make no difference to me if they're lesbos, heck by definition I'm one too!!!!!!

Rod.....

I also saw some side screw locking rings in a catalog today. That has to be better than buggering up the threads on the dies.

Back to canning maters....Bolt out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 02:04:39 (ZULU)


Ok all this talk of lesbo's has me hot and bothered. So here is a joke.

A Old dusty cowboy walks in to an upscale bar and sits down and proceeds to order three fingers of whiskey in a tall glass. The old cowboy sits contented at the bar siping on the drink when a very lovely gal walks in and sits beside him. She says, "are you a real cowboy?" He replies well I ride horses daily tending cattle, mending fences and rope and brand every spring, so yeah I'm a real cowboy. She replies, Well I'm a lesbian. I sleep in late take long luxoriuos buble baths with other beatiful women and have a lot of oral sex with them. The cowboy then continues sipping his drink when another good looking gal come in and sits on the other side of him and gives him a good looking over. She then asks, "Mister, are you a real cowboy?" He said well I used to think so but I just found out I'm a lesbian!"

Pardon me ifn you all heard it before.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 03:19:29 (ZULU)


Some of them gals could throw me over their shoulder and spank me like the bad boy I am ...

Ken Good (SEAL / Started the Surefire Institute) made that website rock for us ... free of charge.

Good dude ...

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 03:58:15 (ZULU)



Hey Hogs (and those wee little Piggys),

Has anyone heard anything about a Carlos Hathcock Memorial shoot next month, around the 15th, in or around the Meridian, MS area?

I have a shooter buddy in the MS Bureau of Narcotics that has told me that they have been invited and to expect worldwide talent to attend.  I have not found anything anywhere about this shoot.  Any info. will be appreciated.

no wind guys,

John

John in AL Email this member See this member's profile
LA, Lower Alabama, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 04:21:47 (ZULU)


Die set screws- trying dropping a piece of birdshot (# 5 or 6) under the set screw.  Keeps the treads from being buggered up.

'Lito-good to see your posts again.  Think you're finding out why most of the rednecks airboats use GM 350's.

Joe M-belated welcome home.  

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 06:45:33 (ZULU)


The sniper match is at Camp Shelby and is for military and police only.  DOnt know the POC.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 09:01:08 (ZULU)


Gents,

MedicJim, Let me know when you're going to be in western Oregon for Rooseveldt Elk season. Perhaps we can get together. My work schedule means I have to hunt second season on Thursday/Friday. Why they split the season like this I don't know.

Your 7MM Rem Mag should be just fine. Use a 175 gr. premium bullet. As noted elk can be tough critters. Personally, I like the .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. I can get a 250 grainer going 2,600 FPS out of mine (23" Kreiger 1:12 twist). I can shoot up to 300 grainers if I want. Probably would want to put wheels and a lanyard on it at that point...

Weather: I've hunted the coast range since I was a youngster. Some of the most rugged hunting you'll find. Come prepared for nasty WET weather. Every so often we get a season without heavy rain, but it's a crap shoot. Brushy in most areas, but the possibility of a long shot exhists. Longest shot I've ever taken was 125 yards. Most under 50 yards. So, you don't need a super flat/fast magnum. The 7MM Rem, 300 Winch, and .338 Winch are all popular elk rounds. Personally, I'm not a big fan of belted mags.

Will use 250's in my Whelan or my .284 Winchester(with premium 175's).

Enjoy our Pacific Northwest hospitality. The Rooseveldt Elk is a regal animal and a fine trophy. Tasty eatin, too.!

Last year there were a number of bulls taken in the area I grew up in and hunted as a young lad. One a monster 5 X 6.

Good luck and good hunting.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 09:49:26 (ZULU)


"...no slings for you!"

Mike,

Guess that makes you the sling nazi:o)

Don

Don K. Email this member See this member's profile
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 13:40:49 (ZULU)


Rick B.  " My how time flies when you are busier then a duck stomping our forest fires.  Which, of course explains why duck have webbed feet."

Which begs the question . . . Why do Elephants have flat feet??

Stomping out burnin' ducks!!

Jim McNabb

runnin' duckin' n' dodgin'

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Texas, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 14:02:19 (ZULU)


Guys, I have searched the archives on this one and could not find a lot of info.  I am looking for opinions on suppressors for a .308.  I've researched AWC, gemtech, jet and a couple of others, but would like the opinions of those on the board who have experience.  Seems an eccentric friend with a lot of land and exotic pets is having a coyote problem that I told him I would enjoy trying to remedy.  Problem is, his daughter and granddaughter live on the land (2500 acres) and don't like the "loud noises" as it is getting dark.  Now I know that a .308 is a bit of overkill for this type of shooting, but you gotta go with what you got.  Plus, to me, overkill is an oxymoron.  Anyway, I was being sarcastic with him the otherday and told him that if he bought me a suppressor for my rifle, his daughter would be happy and I could continue to shoot there.  Well, he offered to pay for half of it plus my $200 extortion tax which was good enough for me.  Always wanted one anyway.  Is it worth jumping through all the hoops to get one?  And what is recommended?  Thanks in advance for the help.

Matt K. Email this member See this member's profile
chattanooga, TN, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 15:29:49 (ZULU)


Morning Hawgs....

  Been gone for several days an just catching up on the DR.

Glad to see you made it back Joe!!!! Take sometime to enjoy the family an ease back into things.

Rick B.

 Good to see you an the Catman back an posting again!! Have missed your words of wisdom.

Catman..

 Thanks for the invite, you know you always have a bed out this way too. When are you coming out this way again??

Bobby W..

  I have got back into drag racing again an a friend has a "Weather Station" an it converts the weather data an altitude your at to what they call corrected dinsity altitude. What that is is even though your at maybe 1400ft the car thinks its running at 5000ft elevation because of the air quality an runs like crap.

 I would have to go back through my data but I have found the same problem as your talking about. I can go out an shoot one day an be dead on with my dials an the next day be a full MOA or more off. I have been wondering if the whole key to this delima is that maybe the bullets also think they are at a higher altitude therefor they fly better because of the "Corrected density altitude". Then the next time your out the air is "Heavier" an they fly slower. This time of year we get so many fronts moving in an out of the mid west its hard to keep track.

  I don't know enough about this weather stuff to really say for sure but its an interesting theory and then I may be way off base wit it too.  

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 15:31:44 (ZULU)



Pat - weather stuff and shooting:

The Kestrel 4000 computes/displays Density Altitude. From the studying that I have done - it appears to be pretty close to that 'single factor' - one that you can dope to and not worry about altitude, humidity, barometric pressure, air temperature, etc (the instrument considers all of these for you) You of course can't ignore actual tempurature of your gun, ammo, etc.

I brought this up awhile back and didnt get much mileage out of it.

I think it's a good idea to use density altitude for doping. Only gochya is - you need some kind of gadget to generate the value -unless Bruce Robinson & Lou Schwebert (hint hint) can invent a slide rule for us :)

You old or more knowlegeable salts chime in on this one....

Semper Fi,

Ken

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 17:35:29 (ZULU)


For all you youngsters, under 70 year’s young, I have a question for you.  Especially those of you that are in your sixties.   Son, what do you plan to do with your life?  :-)

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 17:56:59 (ZULU)


Look at what de Catman dragged in...We're almost running on 7 cylinders again!!!  Glad to see youse ol' gorillas back from the midst..

Lesbo volleyball slappers eh...if so, the winners should be thrown in a tub full of baked beans and left to their own devices, that'd do it for me...

'Lito,

How can the layman(me) tell if a reticle has 'tipped'(if that can happen that is)?  What was once an absolutely clear sight picture now looks like what would be hard to notice, but noticeable enough for me, a very slight crescent moon at the top, and all of a sudden on same detail/day you just could not wind enough elevation down..hasn't been shot since, wondered if you can use the boresight grid to troubleshoot..Don't think that reticle was placed right to begin with, figure the guy who aligned it is shaped like a question mark and nicknamed 'walleye', definitely canted, but it seemed to track ok, which confuses me...

Joe from Dago,

If you're going to make the journey to the Vaterland this March, bring an extra liver, comes in handy..It's a helluva good time..

Pete,

First thing we need to locate for the next IWA trip is a potpourri suppository for the Welshman...Rotten bastad, I figure he's hidin critters up there, and has misplaced one or two...got a website for you to check out for machinery, bunch of stuff the colleges are getting rid of...

later

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 18:00:10 (ZULU)


Maj Joe,welcome back and thank you for your service.

Did your family enjoy the pictures that we sent of the tropical flowers? (I assume you and the boys enjoyed the Miss tropicana pics)

Been offline for a few months but it is nice to see everyone is in good spirits(well most everyone)

Scott S Email this member See this member's profile
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 18:55:43 (ZULU)



UnDudeski...

"Catman what you shooting these days"..

I'd tell you what I'd LIKE to shoot, but that's against the law ;))

But I been shootin' Nada! :((

I have been so busy with this move I haven't shot a gun this year :(((

I'm gonna try to get a gun ready for the Joisey shoot this fall, but right now, everything is in boxes or piles.

-

Rickster...

"'lito - You should know I'm not an old fossil."

Lies, lies, and more lies... ;)

"... Just ugly and cantankerous."

True, true, all true ;))

-

Boltster...

the Lee rings are ok if you don't change dies... but if you change dies, you have to re-invent the whele each time - they don't hold the setting, and marking them with a pen gets real old.  Use the rings with a set screw, and put a lead shot in the hole (like WM said), and it won't mark the die threads.  You don't want to make up a batch of ammo, and find that the bullet seating is off cus the ring wasn't in the right place.

Turning 50??? HA!, double HA!!  yo' is still a young whipper snapper ;)))

-

Ginger...

I heard that one before, but it's still worth a replay.

-

WM...

" Think you're finding out why most of the rednecks airboats use GM 350's"

Well... it's like this - I have wanted an Everglades airboat for since about forever.  And in my fosselized brain, airboat means airplane engine, (I don' need no steenkin' car motor in my airboat ;)

When I first priced a new boat back in '80, the quote for one with an airplain engine damn near made me fall off the chair.. the engine alone (yellow tagged-good-USED) was around $16,000... then add the boat and other poo-poo.

This spring, I lucked onto a primo "AirGator 15", with a Lycoming 0-320 engine that had been sitting in a tool shed for nearly 10 years.  The owner had been in very poor health, and had stored it at his daughter's farm.  He passed on, and she wanted it "out of there"

I picked it up, with a custom trailer, for less than the trailer was worth - so in spite of the ~$1,000 in parts and upgrades I have spent, I still have about $2,000 (TOTAL) in this boat.  So I'm in this thing fer nuthin' :)).  

It looked like shit on the outside when I picked it up, but the engine was new when the boat was bought, and has about 80 to 100 hours on it.  At this point, it's looking pretty good, and I have all the stuff I need to finish it - except time :((.

It should be in the water in 6 or 8 weeks if nothing else comes up on the "Gotta do" list.

The thing I love about the airplane engines is that they are so over engineered for reliability, and have so much redundancy - they will bring you home, when the GM 350s will leave you out in the weeds.

-

Youz guys give them ducks a break - Ducks were God's first attempt at designing a bird ;))

-

Pat...

I would like to get out that way next year - if this godamn law suit gets finished - my son is gettin "Blood thirsty", and might enjoy it.

On the air density thing - I posted a bunch of stuff here about 1-1/2 or 2 years about it  (Search "baro").  The bullet thinks it's at the altitude of the air pressure - forget humidity - it's meaningless, and forget the true altitude you are shooting at - only correct for the air density if you are using a ballistic program, cuz if you are shooting at 3000 feet ASL (above sea level), but the weather front has rolled in and the baro is "UP" by two inchs over normal, you are actually shooting at 2000 feet lower than you are, so youy would be using the data for 1000 ASL - but if you dump all that ASL poo-poo, and just run your data for baro using "0" ASL for the normal, then you just adjust for the pressure, and don't worry where you are, or how high or low you are.

-

Ken...

I gotta new call - K2BK - and we got a small rig and forty meter wire up.  I'll move the big station up when we get the wiring in for the 6 Kilowatt amp :))

-

JR...

"How can the layman (me) tell if a reticle has 'tipped'(if that can happen that is)?"

Yes that can happen, though it happens when the reticle is installed, not later.

The true reference for elevation and windage are the spindle faces of the adjustments in the scope.  these faces are what determines what is straight "Up and sideways"

For long range scopes, the crosshairs MUST be parallel to the spindle faces - if they are not, then all the fussing you do, can't make the riffle shoot predictably at long range.  The worst problem about non-square reticles is that the errors look like bad wind calls, or cant - and it never goes away, and you can never get right - leading to a lot of frustration for new LR shooters.

To check a reticle for squarness to the spindle faces, do this.

Get a roll (or piece) of paper, so you can make a target that it 50" or more high... it only needs to be 20" or so wide.

Make a plumb line of black 550 cord with a 1 ounce fishing weight on the end - the line should be 60" or longer.

Then get a pack of those 1" stickie dot lables (black) at the stationary store, and a thumb tack, and a tape measure.

Now... go to the range and put the paper target up on the target board at 100 yds, so it is vertical.

Now tack the plumb line to the top of the frame, so it hangs from the top of the frame and runs down the middle of the paper, and it can swing freely over the paper.

Now, put a stickie dot at the botton of the target so it under the 550 cord, and the cord goes through the center of the dot.

Measure up 42", and put another dot under the cord.  When you have finished putting on the dots, they MUST be 42" (center to center) apart, and the cord must go through the middle of both dots.

Now remove the plumb line and put it away.

Set your sights for your 100 zero, and shoot 5 shots in the LOWER dot.  then crank in 40 moa of elevation, and... (pay attention here), AIM at the lower dot, and make sure that the vertical crosshair wire is in the middle of BOTH black dots, and shoot five more while aiming at the lower dot, and the wire bisects both dots - the rounds will hit the top dot.

If the second group hits the middle of the upper dot, your wires are true and parallel to the spindles and the scope is a keeper - but if the group is off to one side, you have a tilted reticle, and there is doodley-squat that you can do about it.  This error is called "elevation tracking error", and means as you crank in elevation for longer ranges, you are also cranking an increasing windage error that you can't see.

The only way to compensate for this problm is to use a bubble level that is deliberatly off-set to side by the same amount as the error - a pain in the ass to set up, but usable.

And most scope makers can't fix this (they won't know what you are talking about!!!).

-

It's good to be able to have some time to get back here for a while...

-

'lito

No Cats, no Joy.

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 19:37:08 (ZULU)


Joe M

 Good to hear you're back and doing home type things.  We have a staff epidemiologist here and I'll try getting her to answer a few questions for me about the sand box.  She's quite involved with a number of things over there anyway.

 My son just got back State-side last Monday (09 Aug 2004), he's in route to Fort Lewis to the little ADA group up there.  We were talking about his Iraq tour yesterday and he wanted to say thanks to all the folks that sent things and especially to Major Joe for the SPEAR gear.  He had a few "parts and pieces" experiences and a couple prisoner escort ops but nothing that caused him any harm or damage.  He sure views the world in a different light, not the "womb safe" place he thought it was.

 Greeting to all the rest of the regular hogs too.

 I've been busy getting skinny and fat, then skinny, training for a shoot and a high(er) altitude (12,000 ASL) Colorado backpack elk hunt in October.  I shot my first "F" Class match in NC a short while back, used the 308 from G-A and fired in the F/TR (Target Rifle) class.  Did well (got lucky once again) two (2) first place matches (600 and 1000), one (1) second place (again at 600) and 8 of 13 at 1000 shooting the 168's, (overall I was second place ) I really enjoyed the time and learned a lot  (two series each at 600 and 1000, four total matches plus an aggragate).

 I just got a 375 H&H Long Range shooter setup, from George at G-A.  Shoots about .75MOA with thrown together loads, 6 to 7 MOA for 400 yard come-ups (M3LR scope).

 Take care all.

 v/r  

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 19:49:58 (ZULU)


Matt K; Here is a man that can tell you what you need to know.

http://www.norcalprecision.com/ Ask Jerry Rice. but....

Check Legality of what your doing first in you state however.

You can slow load a .308 with 110grain a max bullets if the distances are not too far. Using something like pistol powder and reduced loads with a little research. If you want quiet you need to stay below the speed of sound. (1100 fps) or there abouts. Or put your suppressor on a .44 magnum loaded with .44 specials in a rifle barrel.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 19:56:41 (ZULU)



Ken & Catman..

 I agree 100% with that an have looked at the Kesterl which is suppose to give the adjusted DA. I am convinced that that is the answer to why we shoot a full MOA off on different days.

 If you recorded that data an had the tables for the different altitudes I believe you could make a lot more fist round hits on any given day by simply comparing the DA and dialing for that.

 I have been out an shot on 3 days in a row where the temp has been the same, wind the same direction, an on the last day or maybe the fist day have my dials be a full MOA off. It used to drive me crazy but then I recalled on one of those days a front building up in the north an it was raining about 10 miles off. So when I thought back about it, I would bet the DA was way different from when I shot the other two days with the same temps an wind conditions.

 I have the computer game on long range shooting an it has the different elevations to shoot at an it really makes a difference once you get past 600yds, so it makes sence the bullet would act the same way in real life. Thanks for the imput!!!!!

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 20:34:17 (ZULU)


I always wondered about ducks and God...Now when Noah filled the boat 2x2 did the ducks really care if they had a seat?  

Lito,

Thanks eh, should have the necessary range and plumb line to do a good test...should be a good nice and calm Saturday test while the others are at the Lancs shoot...Good to have you back, you really boil the simple down for my simpleton self, much appreciated...you'd think I'd know circles and squares by now...

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 20:40:00 (ZULU)


Brian,

Nice forum.  Of course now I will be spending even MORE time online instead of shooting.  ;)  

You are doing a good thing with this program.

To everyone else,

I would urge you to use the link on Brian's site to make a monthly donation.  I figured that it would save the shipping costs and perhaps some of the more skookum gear could be purchased.  Especially now since it appears for the present the boys are being allowed to send Al Sadr's boys to meet their virgins.

Jim

Jim T Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 20:58:45 (ZULU)


'Lito- I've always wanted an airboat too, but they're illegal here in Virginny.  For 2K I'd a bought it too!

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 16, 2004, at 22:06:05 (ZULU)


Brian,

send me your address again. I got some issue marine corp camo for ya.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Monday, August 16, 2004, at 22:10:25 (ZULU)



Yote:  Yeah---asprin every day---little yellow coated pills.  Bad plumbing runs in the family--and I am still "getting back in shape" pushing for 6 min. miles (3 each).  Wife thinks that is hard on a 40 year old heart, especially one that was as outta shape as I was coming outta recruiting hell.  Heheh---at least I always "maxed" the push-ups and sit-ups---I'd hate to be fighting that battle too.

In Iraq I realized that the only fun left is in the SOCOM world---the rest of the army lacks appeal anymore.  Ruined!  I don't see switching over right now (family)--but ya never know what tomorrow may bring:

So I am kicking my own ass getting in shape anyways.  If another opportunity like the last one comes...

My local infantry battalion just activated and went to MS; wife said, "don't even think about THAT just yet..."  Oh well, if I go again, it's the 'stan I'd want anyway...

I am doing a 500 yard test on group size starting this week.  I'm curious about the effect of slower pulse/ leaner body mass on my shooting:  Yeah, it has been done ad-infintum, but not by me for me.  I have a log book ready to go (army tape test, resting pulse, miles ran for the week, plus the weather etc) and will use prone w/sand bags (SPR, FGM 168s).  If something profound happens, I'll post the results.  

On deploying to Iraq:

Attitude cannot be discounted.  You will see convoys moving all over with gunners so crouched down that the gun looks unmanned; and they get hit routinely.  You'll see others with gunners running traffic off, swiveling their heads like tops, generally looking ready for anything.  These guys bitch about the lack of contact.  There is a reason.

You'll hear all kinds of mods to the ROE; it will confuse you at times.  Bottom line, always look at the "self defense" clause, the conditions for engaeing, and boil it down to the brass tacks.  If you hear a request to fire on the net "we have 3 guys with AKs and what may be an RPG"--you have some clarity problems with ROE.  Blame the lawyers, but fix it.  You should get a contact report for that, as in " engaged three targets with..."  But with every mandatory reading of these frikken rules, you'll have more and more confused troopers.  Do not let that stand.  Review the bidding, and simplify it for your troops.  They need to shoot without asking at times, and the ROE makes it hard for some to figure out when that is.  You can make it as few as 3 sentences (instead of 3 pages where it was when I left).  

Don't think roadside bombs will be obvious; trash, guard rails and abandonded cars are everywhere---to check them all is not possible.  Change lanes, vary speeds wildly, and NEVER let anyone pass you from behind.  Front and rear gunners must have their shit together, nothing crosses the highway to your front and nothing gets inside of 50 meters to the rear without shots being fired through a radiator.  No such thing as too many weapons.  The fifty is for killing, a 16 varient is for warning off dumbasses.  Most will naturally drive behind you---it is like a wave of cars with an invisible barrier holding them back matching your speeds. The dumbasses and bad guys will stand out as they charge in.  No doubt when the time comes to shoot.  Will your gunner shoot?

The gunner has the best view--but NOBODY is along for the ride.  All heads on a swivel.  The limited view out o up armors is still better than nuthin' if it is used and used always.  It gets boring, but stay on 'em.

Get an RPG  (EODT or their replacement contractor has dummy rounds).  Use it in training, present it every weird way imaginable mixed in with farm implements.  Make your boys see the difference immediately.  Better to shoot these things while still in the launcher...and target ID is paramount.  You'd be surprised how some of our kids just stare at a launcher end-on when it counted.

Bad guys hit weakness.  Hide strength if you want to play, or act strong when you don't.  You are being watched everywhere.  

Obvious:  Don't get complacent.  You will, but try to recognize it when it happens.  I knew I was when I responded to an infil in shorts with a pistol jammed in my belt and two '16 mags on a leg extender.  Morgue---you stayed in bed, so yer guilty too.  It happens, but know when it does and assess the risk.

Read INSUMs, sitreps and the SIRs daily if you are a SL or above.  Plot it in yer AO and know the pattern yourself.  Use this info to plan and survive.  

A crash axe scares the mob-vultures away.  Armed orderly soldiers may not.  If rescuing a disabled crew, act mad as hell (you won't be acting)--and seize the situation with small amounts of applied violance.  Knock any doubters on their ass, have a wingman ready to drill anyone objecting to being shoved away.  Speed counts.

Yeah, speed counts.  Floor it.  

Battle drills for hummers:  Driver down is bad.  Don't think about getting out, or pulling him clear of that compartmet while under fire.  Gunner drops right in on driver's lap and gets control (moving--right now), right rear becomes gunner.  TC never moves, if TC gets hit, keep going--and don't stop if at all possible.  Repeat if necessary with left rear passenger.  Always have at least a four man crew in a gunship (5 is better).  Plan recovery before you go.  Left rear guy is the hook up man.  Oh, always pre-rig towing shit.  Cables, bars whatever.  Mount it up.  Push the vehicle in front, pull the rear.  Use three ship minimum, one covers the other to recover the third.  A 240 is preferred to a fifty on at least 1 ship.  Faster, steadier in a near contact.  

Rehearse this at speed until it is second nature, and rehearse everything else the same.

Always test fire.  50s especially, each day, it should be a part of the PCI.  I saw too many 50s that would NOT fire when needed out on the road over there.  That was depressing.  Remeber that bunch we saw, Morgue?

Your day ends AFTER all weapons are cleaned.  The mission begins after they are dusted off AND tested...bring dry lubes and PLENTY of cleaning supplies (PTFE crap works pretty good).

Reflex sites rock.  Do not buy a cheapo, nor cheapo mounts.  GG&G or ARMs work very well.  The crap that comes with aimpoints does not; it will loose zero after a week or two of getting in and out of vehicles.  

A sawed off shotgun in the vehicle is good.  Plenty around over there.  If ya have to get out of a burning hummer with bad guys closing in, 5 rounds of buck as you wait on the rescue will buy you time to clear.  A ammo can full of frags in easy reach is also great.  Tie it down so it can be reached by all without trippin' the gunner.  Smoke taped to each seat, thermite on comms.  Keep the frags separate from the rest though.  Heheh.

Get some blackhawk-style three pouch (two mag per type for "flush" mounting for in/ out of the turrets and general mobility and laying lower when needed):>) ammo pouches (molle pouches work)  Build the armor vest into your LBE.  I had mine set sideways, opening to the left.  Very fast and easy.  If you can get a SPEAR vest, do so.  Neck protectors are a dubious addition.  Unit SOP will drive it, but I ditched mine and had much better mobility as a result.  Get a MITCH helmet as fast as you can.  RFI is on Doha, and they also have forward sites in Iraq.  Hell, get it all (danner boots and cool stuff galore), but make a point of it ASAP on arrival.  That helmet will be a huge benefit in morale, protection, internal comms use, and weight on the noggin.  

Re-zero at any opportunity.  Make your own opportunity.  

Entering/ departing controlled areas or FOBs is often where it happens.  Don't focus on the objective when travelling---focus on getting there.

plenty more if anyone wants to ask.  email me...

baby just crawled in my lap....

you get a break

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 01:30:07 (ZULU)


One more:

The way things are working over there:  Everything you need or want is a "favor."  Barter is in effect; we've gone native on the market-style way of life.  Bring extra 9mm if ya got it, and trade for anything.  Heheh, I got an ac unit for a hummer for a blast blanket. It might frustrate ya, but I got used to it.  It was fun after a while, although not the "way it is supposed to be."  Not by a long shot.

On the Rapid fielding initiative:  If ya get there and can't get it---email me off this site.  I will direct ya to the right people by name.  

Doc:  Glad to hear your boy is back and safe!  It was my absolute honor to send stuff to your son.  That was one of a few "personal" care packages.  

One other (expected) malady:  coughing up all kinds of mud.  That dust was deep in the ol' lungs.  This rain and humidity is digging it out though.  

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 01:55:21 (ZULU)


Joe,

You are a real blessing. I hope those in need take heed.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 02:44:22 (ZULU)


Sniper Match;

 The match at Camp Shelby,MS is, as Gooch said, for LE/Mil only. Camp Shelby is near Hattiesburg, a bit south of Meridian.

 I know some fellas who shot it last time. Send me an e-mail and I'll try to get some info. For some reason I think they might have two matches a year.

 If nothing else, contact Public Affairs at the Camp Shelby website.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 03:02:25 (ZULU)



Pat and Ken - The gadget you are looking for is a PDA with a ballistic program made special for it.  Exbal is one and I have worked with it.  I have worked with the Horrid (Opps Horus) Vision one and I am working with one that is under construction with a guy by the name of Blaine Fields.  So far his if the one that seems to be working out very well as he is now developing it and is adding everything that I like, and another guy that is a hunter up north.  One example is the BDC problem.  His program will give you a corrected BDC factor.  As an example, his program will say, for 600 today you need to use 6 + 1.  Nice stuff.  And yes Pat, the day to day noise of the enviornment can cause a problem at longer ranges as well as closer ones under some conditions.  A side thingy to Mr. Fields program is that is can set up so that you will get factors for your BDC so that you can use a 308 cam on a 300 Win mag or what ever you need. :)

HDR - Congrates you win!  I'm am a youngster. Now if I can just get all those youngster I work with to stop calling me gramps and old fart. :)

'lito - That is why they ask for only the baro and not altitude for these little computer do'hickies I been playing with lately.  :)  Wouldn't a bore sight do the same thing?  We check our scopes with a bore sight (Bushnell cheapee) to make sure that the scopes are tracking straight and true and will box properly.

Joe M. - The ROEs and soldiers playing by them are what are getting guys hurt.  It adds that second of should I or shouldn't I.  soldiers are supposed to fight not wonder if they should.  It is similar to the "feared for my life" defense.  Whack the guys that over step but do not hamstring the guys ot the point of them doubting if they should shoot.  I know that I am preaching ot the choir but it really bugs me and too much "Peace keeping" is ruining the soldier.  Soldiers shoot, not wonder if they should.

Your point on rapid fielding is an important one.  Too many do not know of it and commanders are some that do not.  It can get you gear that you need real fast.  Have fun with your little ones!  And Joe, you are getting a bit long in the tooth as an officer to be playing some of those games.  It is time fo ryou to play staff weiny and "advise" the underlings on how things should be done.  :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 03:04:59 (ZULU)



Density altitude is a function of barometric pressure, temperature, and the amount of moisture in the air.

If you have a Kestrel, or some other way to determine those quantities, as well as a handheld computer with a ballistic program which takes inputs in the form of those data, of which there are several, your PDA is in effect calculating the density altitude when you enter those numbers, and it computes a ballistic solution for you. It just doesn't display the density altitude for you.

Now, if you have a Kestrel, or other devices which measure those quantities, and you didn't want to haul a PDA around, you could compute a chart for your particular load which would have a table of elevations which were a function of the density altitude, and it would be the only table which you would ever need for that load, no matter where you were shooting.

I've thought about building such a table to put in my data book, but haven't, yet. It's too easy to haul the PDA around, which I carry for other non-shooting purposes anyway. And the PDA is handy for other purposes, like computing target ranges from mil-radian measurements and moving target leads. (I still ALWAYS carry a Mildot Master, though.)

Perhaps this winter, on a long dark cold night, after I get a printer to replace the one which is currently broken...

Edited to add: Rick, I have used Horus ATRAG2P as well as Exbal. I prefer the Horus program, because the main PDA screen displays all of the parameters which go into the calculation, which allows you to determine instantly if the solution it calculated is computed for the correct set of parameters. It also handles the gun list better than Exbal. If Mr. Fields program does that as well, I'll want to take a look at it. Exbal doesn't do that - you have to page through the parameters screens one at a time.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 03:20:11 (ZULU)


Rick,

Yep...been feelin' that age creepin' in lately.  My current orders have me reporting in at a Mobilization site, plans and training.  I'll spend that time wondering what to do next, while maybe getting a little info into the the right hands.  A nice safe staff job near where real soldiers will train for a real war.  Not a bad place to ponder the future from...

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 05:07:56 (ZULU)


Matt K. - “I am looking for opinions on suppressors for a .308... Is it worth jumping through all the hoops to get one?  And what is recommended?”

I have an AWC Thundertrap on my SCLE #14.  My normal load is Fed GMM 175s.  Now I’m no technical guy and I don’t sleep in hotels very much so I have no idea how the hell this thing does what it does.  But besides cutting the recoil a bit, improving accuracy a little and making the shooting a whole lot more pleasurable, it also blots out the supersonic crack of the 175.

This isn’t a subsonic round.  It’s a standard Fed GMM 175.  Somehow, the Thundertrap disperses the sound waves so that the crack appears to disappear.  The bullet is still going supersonic.  And it’s also hard to detect shooter direction.

AWC makes a comment on their website about smothering out the supersonic crack and a lot of guys on various boards take issue with it.  But obviously, they haven’t actually shot one.  I can’t explain it.  Maybe somebody here can.

Aside of that, shooting with it is a (quiet) blast!  I’ve got other AWC’s on my 5.56 M4 and 9mm Beretta.  And if you really want some fun, try some subsonic ammo.  I use the stuff from Engle Ballistic Research.  Just be prepared for some strange elevation changes!

The whole suppressor thing is very subjective.  The cost can be substantial for quality units.  The Thundertrap cost $995 plus the “tax.”  And as far as “quietness” goes, everyone will hear the same unit differently.  And then there’s the ATF fun time.  Mine ran 7 months start to finish for all three units.

Would I do it again?  You betcha!!!!!!!!

'lito - “At this point, it's looking pretty good, and I have all the stuff I need to finish it - except time” :((

And the “froggy” t-shirt.  I tried.  :((

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 11:15:34 (ZULU)


I have a Jet suppressor for my AI .308. It's definitely worth the trouble. The reduction in recoil allows me to observe bullet impacts at ranges as short as 300 yards, which helps me make corrections, if necessary, on a followup shot. It's all titanium, solidly welded up. Click on my name for their web site.

To be truly quiet, you have to be shooting subsonic ammo, and subsonic ammo in a .308 is not going to be very accurate, because there is too much empty space in the case. Some say you can improve accuracy by using a filler in the case, but I haven't tried that with handloads yet. If you really want quiet and accuracy (out to about 300 yards or so), then you want a cartridge like the .300 Whisper, which is a .221 Fireball case necked up to .30 caliber.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 13:00:34 (ZULU)



Gents,

Anyone been to the shooting course that Mcmilian is offering? I was thinking of trying to use it as a precursure to Sniper school if I can get it. Just wondering what the shooters might have to say.

Supressors Make shooting a whole different experience.If I Didn't live in the republic of California There are a couple of guns that would have make the change.As to using Sonic ammo through one The crack is usually heard as a round passes overhead, so for the supressors that don't nulify the crack the main noise occures from next to the target as the round passes. This is why it is hard to determine the direction that the shot came from.  Using Sub sonic ammo aleviates this problem.  This is my understanding of what occures,  but it makes sense but could be wrong.

Joe M.- In our defense joe, after the amount of "false" alarms that these guys push when anything sneezes over the wire anywhere there comes a point when you want to hear something before you run around with you deek in your hand, I don't know if I would call it complacency though. :)

Morgue Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 13:19:05 (ZULU)


Joe; The aspirin may be source of your capulary bleeding causing what looks and is a bruise of sorts. I've been on it for so long I look like I've tangled with a Bobcat when I trim bushes or trees without long sleeve shirts. Just about any encounter will cause bleeding under the skin anywhere. Mine is in the form of red (very close to the surface as opposed to blue deeper. ...or purple spots on my arms. You won't notice it much if your in the office but since you've been in the field it's more likely you'll notice it all the time due to encounters with sharp or semisharp objects bushes etc. Some people I know complain that their skin is thinner after the aspirin thing. That may be but I don't know anything except the slightest encounter will produce the effect. Don't stop taking the aspirin especially when your involved in heavy activity but you might slack off to one tablet or one every other day to check to see if that's what's causing your problem. A week off aspirin will clear me up just fine but other than a little thinning of the blood I've no bad effects other than that I'm still alive after 8 years behind the first heart attack. I do things nowadays that would kill a man with a good heart so it must be the aspirin. I have to be careful about sun exposure anyway so long sleeves don't hurt anything but I don't see how they stand those temperatures over in Iraq. That would kill me shortly.

Subsonic rounds can be launched with pistol powders such as Unique that normally are used in shot guns and pistols alike. IF velocity varies too much (over 50fps) I would use the magnum rifle primer to burn it off. There's a very good chance the rifle will actually shoot better especially if lead cast bullets are used. There is no percentage is using copper jackets in low velocity loads. In small caliber's the Hornady SX is an excellent bullet if one needs a jacket to prevent fouling. If one were pressed to recall the book called "Master Sniper". The German night vision sniper defeats himself by using too soft bullets and sub sonic rounds. An excellent take on the subject and one really good piece of writing by the master sniper writer of all time. Off to a high tech redneck meeting on fiber optic applications. Seeyall later.  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 14:39:51 (ZULU)



This may be a "DUH" comment but I have a friend who has a suppressor on everything he shoots. His comments on supressors is similar to those already made. Based on what I've heard him say, I would have to question the claim to reduce the "crack" in the bullet flight because it is the result of the speed, not the report from inside the barrel. It's true that it makes it hard to determine where the shot came from, but only a sub-sonic round would be truely quiet.

Accuracy doesn't seem to be an issue with a supressor. My friend has an M-4 with a can on it. We were shooting it at about 350 yrds just to play with the select fire. I shot at a human silhouette at that range in two round bursts, off-hand. I could hit with the first round but recoil threw the second round off.

It seems that the "factory" sub-sonic ammo uses a heavier bullet to get a finishing energy reading that's effective. I was considering the 300 Whisper in an upper for my AR and a wise and experienced member of this site explained that accuracy and effectiveness in that round is limited to about 150 yrds or so. My SWAG (scientific wild ass guess for the uninformed) would be that loss of accuracy with a sub-sonic round might be at the point where it's speed might not work to stablize it any longer. Obviously a shorter distance than super-sonic. Anyway, that's my two cents worth and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.  :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 14:44:04 (ZULU)


Catman, I plan on doing a US Tour next year. Once all is healed LOL.  Maybe we can get together and shoot some.  I have just had a kick shooting 223 at extreme range and know you would like that.

Rick, I know Blaine very well. Hell of a nice guy and he has his heart and soul into that project.

Now what we need is an affordable PDA that wont crap out in the field.

Lindy, (I always carry a Mildot Master)I have had enough of that conversation also.Take care my friend.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 15:28:19 (ZULU)


Rick & Lindy,

 Thanks for the info, but I am to damn old to get into hand held computers or palm pilots.(HA) If the Kestrel gives me the corrected DA for any given day I would just make me a set of tables for my log book. I am into the KISS principal big time.

 I am usually only looking at about a 2 MOA max change so thats not to hard to figure on. I could figure a DA for my base data an then go off of that depending on what the DA says. I should only have to add or subtract a MOA or so to be on target with a first round hit. Am I correct in this assumption??? Does the Kestrel give you a corrected DA reading??? Thanks!!!!

Mike,

  When you go on tour, if you get out to South Dak or pass through, give me a shout you have a place to throw your ruck an we could go shoot some. We can shoot out to 1300yds around here.  Good luck with the surgery.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 17:25:59 (ZULU)


Hey guys. Your input would be appreciated.

I have a few 308s and am shopping for a 270WIN and am considering a Sako. Anyone have experience with them? Is it worth it?

Thanks in advance and Welcome home Joe

Doug

Doug Sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 17:39:49 (ZULU)


Doug.

If you have a couple .308s, what do you want with a .270?  The .308 can do everything a .270 can due to the better selection of bullets

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 18:26:32 (ZULU)


Gents,

Suppressor's: Have owned "cans" for almost all my SMG's. BIG difference in sound signature. The units add a bit of weight, but are worth it, IMHO.

On rifles: Have played with them on rifles up to .50 cal. They do an excellent job of quieting the rifles and have the added advantage of hiding the signature of the weapon. As to the "crack" of the bullet it will sound 180 degrees out from the weapon.

Subsonics...you bet! Engel Ballistic Research, Whit Engel is the MAN.

His ammo is the best out there and his "Wraith" rifles are beyond compare. It's neat to be able to go click/plop. The loudest thing you hear is the trigger! Good Stuff!

Another acquaintance has a suppressed MG42. Now THAT is impressive!

Guess I run with a bad crowd...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 18:27:05 (ZULU)


Sir Wes,

I'll bet it hurts the wallet to feed that puppy!  Is it a .308 or the original 7.92?  Must be one heck of a can to stand up to that cyclic rate of fire.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 18:31:54 (ZULU)


MedicJim

I wanted to try something a little flatter shooting, slightly smaller caliber. I've been saving my pennies and just wanted to add to my stuff. I love the 308s I have, but thought I'd vary things a bit.

Doug

Doug Sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 19:36:34 (ZULU)



Doug,

.308

Try loading the Laupa 155 scenars at > 2900 fps....  You can use the 300 win mag cam on the Leupold M3 / MK4 family of scopes to track....they run THAT FLAT!

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 20:31:54 (ZULU)


If you want to protect a PDA in the field, try an Otterbox 2600. It's about $50. It's waterproof, floats with the PDA in it, and you don't have to take the PDA out of the box to use it - it is usable through the screen protector on the front, and even has an external storage clamp for the stylus. I've got one, and it works. Click on my name for the link.

Palm M125s are perfectly usable with the Horus program and Exbal, and are available on the web for less than a hundred bucks. I use a M500 Palm, because it's in daily use, but I have both, and both are usable in the same Otterbox. Neither are indestructible in that box, but neither are rifles and scopes. Especially scopes. Don't run over them with a truck.

Pat, the Kestrel computes density altitude for the temperature, atmospheric pressure, and atmospheric moisture content which it measures. In that context, I don't understand what you mean when you say "corrected DA reading."

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 20:58:08 (ZULU)


Doug,

what's your range?  flat only gets you so far...

Joe,

<<Re-zero at any opportunity.  Make your own opportunity.>>

I think I will etch that on me next barrelled action...then get you to sign it..

Hoo-ha...

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Scotland the Brave, just north of England - Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 21:20:46 (ZULU)


JR:  Haha.  I'd sign, too!  What it all boils down to is this:  The units over there are really taxed by missions and of course the heat---and some easily lose sight of the "little things" that are really important.  

Leaders:  Don't "go easy" if that means foregoing weapons maintenance or checking your troops zeros after thumping the guns around for a few weeks.  It happens though.  Everyone gets tired.  That is when it is okay to be "unpopular."  

It is all just observations, not a widespread failing by all units.  I saw enough to comment on these things.  These were a few things that either worked or needed to be watched based on random sights throughout the country.  FWIW.

Morgue:  I know...chicken littles' "sky is falling" reaction to those sneezes.  Heheh.  I verfiied the over-reactions each time though (my job--but I never interfered with their fun and games---it is okay by me to be over-paranoid), and I woulda woke ya up if shit was on our doortep.  That night, it was "near enough" to warrat a good look---a little recce with NVGs; but far enough that if we were clear, we'd stay clear.  I went back to bed after being bit up by the flies myself.  I was dressed wrong for sure, for bugs!  Had the armor and lid though.  

One last thought for Morgue:

Didn't the boy who cried wolf get gobbled up?  WY6!  They may get it right one of these nights.  At least go check the spot reports when they sound the alarms next time....okay?  I'd like to see ya again, and you are pretty much alone out there relying on those guys--and way out on a limb!  Believe me, if the shit does fly---they will look to you for direction.  If nothing else, you can lay down a helluva base of fire with them.  Heheh.  And, take those jokers to the range!  Make them go...they are NOT zeroed, especially those PVS tubes.

joe mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 22:03:57 (ZULU)


Ok Gang,

BadLands will be having a Fall Individual Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle match October 9-10, 2004. Entries are now open. For further details click on my name. This match is open to Civilians, Military and Law Enforcement! Get ready!!

Bobby Whittington Email this member See this member's profile
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 02:53:25 (ZULU)


Ya'll heard that new country song:

It's hard to kiss the lips at night that chew your ass out all day long ?

No Joke ! Rodney Crowell - hilarious.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 05:31:53 (ZULU)


Yes Brian, and the video is pretty hilarious too.

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 07:10:53 (ZULU)


"I ain't got it in me to put it in you no more." unknown from local radio station.

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 11:06:37 (ZULU)


Good morning Sniper Country!  

After lurking on your site since about 1997 I thought I would finally register and join the fray.  My experience is limited but interest is high.  I have explored the archives and gained much information from the sight.  My gratitude to everyone that has made my life (shooting) better.  Also my respect and gratitude to all in the service of defending our country and cities.  I have more interests then I can shake a dipole at, so I may ask what appears to be silly questions to you, but are not to me.  Please be gentle.  Jeff in Indy!

Jeff in Indy Email this member See this member's profile
Indy, In, US of A - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 13:07:08 (ZULU)


Welcome, Jeff! Seven years ought to be good for a lurking award of some kind.

Ask away with silly questions - we have silly answers.

>shake a dipole at...

Another ham? Here is AK5N.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 13:29:15 (ZULU)


There is a 1K match this Sunday,(AUG 22) about 2PM at AEDC in Tullahoma TN.  Everyone wanting to shoot long is invited to attend.  Cost is $15 and it will follow the standard NRA prone Highpower format.  Hit my email for questions.

sweepman@tds.net

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:14:58 (ZULU)


The range I shoot at goes to 300yds. I appreciate the responses. Back to the original question though, and I don't care to support Europeans in any way but... what do you think of the Sako? It seems like a well designed rifle from the ads. Is it difficult to replace parts should it be needed? I'd just like to try a smaller caliber for variety. I've only shot 308s.

Thanks

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:43:32 (ZULU)


Lindy,

 What I mean by the corrected DA is that the instrument reads the air an then even though you know your standing at 1400ft elevation the instrument gives you the "Corrected" altitude reading, of say 4350ft, because of the weather conditions in the area.

 So instead of reading the "Actual" altitude it gives you the "Corrected" altitude. Then you would know in theory your bullets should fly flatter than your data of 1400ft says. Hope this helps clear it up. Now am I in the right ball park on my thinking on this???

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:52:47 (ZULU)



Doug,

I've heard good things about Sako's, but don't know anyone shooting one.

If you are looking for that style of rifle, you may also want to consider the Tikka 595 series.  Mac Tilton (www.mtguns.com) sells them and they are very nice rifles.  They can now be fitted with the two stage Barnard trigger.  They are DM, with single stack mags.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 14:53:07 (ZULU)


Thanks, I'll look into them

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 15:11:52 (ZULU)


Just got back from a health and safety course, it was good fun, good bunch, good grub and beer. and on a health and safety note:

Moderators !! be very carefull with sub sonic loads in a 308 cal rifle with a 1 in 12 twist, you might be ok with light bullets, i dunno, but i know about the heavy bullets, you need at least a 1 in 10 to stableise the bullets, try the ammo in the rifle WITHOUT THE MODERATOR FITTED first, if you see keyholes in your target the chances are that you will bugger the can up with the bullits hitting the baffles. I had a 308 with a 1 in 10 twist 20" heym barrel, it would stableise the factory lapua sub sonics (200gr bullets) just fine, but they keyholed out of my 1 in 12 twist 308 sporter barrel. 1 in 8 twist is optimal for subsonics in a 308, i went for a 1 in 10 cos it would do both jobs..

JR send me an email to my home addy will you mate,, and with ref to what crawled up Jons rear and died,, yup it stunk like a skunk, i think it was the weizen beer and jerky that did it.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 15:36:57 (ZULU)


Chris

I did a search and it seems Tikka is made by Sako and is just a less expensive version.

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 16:16:53 (ZULU)


Pat: the short answer is that the Kestrel does not "correct" its density altitude calculation.

If you look at the barometric pressure window, you will note a reference for altitude. If you leave the reference set on zero, the reading you will get is absolute station pressure. If you set it to what your current altitude is known to be, you will get a reading corrected to sea level. You can watch that effect by changing the reference. If you increase the reference, the indicated reading goes up, and if you decrease the reference, the reading goes down.

Similarly, the altitude window has a reference setting for barometric pressure. It can only accurately calculate altitude if it knows what the barometric pressure corrected to sea level is.

A device which measures atmospheric pressure can either tell you what your altitude is, or what the barometric pressure is corrected to sea level is, but not both. You either have to know what your altitude is, in which case it can correct station pressure to barometric pressure at sea level, or know what the barometric pressure corrected to sea level is, in which case it can correctly compute your altitude. That's why pilots are continually having to check and correct the barometric pressure reference in their aneroid altimeters, although by regulation all use the same setting above 18,000 feet.

The barometric pressure which is reported in weather forecasts is always corrected to sea level, to avoid confusing people who don't know that atmospheric pressure decreases by about one inch of mercury per 1,000 feet. Telling people living in Leadville, Colorado, that the barometric pressure is 18 and some fraction inches of mercury would freak some of them out, as well as not giving them useful information about trends in the weather which are indicated by pressure changes.

Some ballistic programs - Horus ATRAG is one - work most accurately with uncorrected station pressure, so if using one in that mode, you'll want to leave the altitude reference on the barometric pressure window of your Kestrel set to zero.

The density altitude window in the Kestrel has no reference - and the reading you get is just the density altitude computed from the station pressure, station temperature, and station moisture reading.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 16:41:15 (ZULU)


Altitude, etc:  Get away from "Corrected" altitude.... might be best to just call it what it is:  Density Altitude...which appears to be an already established standard.  

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:03:59 (ZULU)


Doug,

 I bought my wife a Tikka 270 whitetail hunter synthetic, stuck a loopy on it, and got away with giving it to her on her birthday by placing a diamond in the box.  Turns out, the rifle alone was a gem in her eyes; she has taken 6 deer with it since.  It is a fine huntin rig and very easy on the wallet.  It is one of the few rifles in the  safe that isn't picky about loads.  

The tikka barrels come from the same place as the more expensive Sakos, and having both, I am impressed with the accuracy from either Sako or Tikka.  I've even thought about a Tactical Tikka for the wife, to save a few bucks while having her along for my fun.  The biggest headache is finding the Sako low rings at times due to limited production runs.  It can be a frustrating search.  They have a propriety dovetail grove that tapers on the Sakos, and is narrow and straight on the (older) Tikkas, making anything less than Sako rings and bases chancy.  I tried some weavers made for them, and they sucked.  

You can still find some Stoeger imports in the M995 (TRG-S)line of Sakos in a variety of chambers, including 270.  I'd recommend looking about for those.  Shirker's of PA had a pile, give them a call.  Your dealer can order for ya.  They are under 500 last I checked (hell, I bought one in 300WM just this way).  Here in Wisconsin, they aren't big sellers, and deals can be had.  I traded a Rossi 357 for a Tikka!

I am a huge fan of the Fins, though Morgue here is an even bigger fan.  FWIW, I do not think you'll get better quality for the buck anywhere else.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:34:46 (ZULU)


Ken an Lindy,

  Maybe thats what this weather station we use for drag racing does. It may give the corrected altitude above sea level for the conditions. Its not mine an I don't know enough about this stuff to even argue one way or the other. It says "DA" an then gives a reading. It is usually higher or lower than the actual altitude were at.

 We race at one track that is at 3000ft elevation by the airport an the "DA" will vary from 3800 to as high as 7200ft on the same day. This is what got me thinking about the air an bullets flying through it. If the car runs like an thinks its at 7000ft maybe my bullets do too.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:43:03 (ZULU)


Joe

It's an honor to me to have you reply to my post. I have tremendous respect for you. I've been replied to by "The" Joe Mahon

Thank you and all you guys for your service.

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 17:49:24 (ZULU)


I like Tikka above Sako myself. Nice guns.

Barometers sometimes have to be corrected to sea level to get them in range. Especially these wrist watch units will only read a few points either way and must be corrected when elevation changes greatly.

Actually in shooting you only need change your impact based on how much the barometer as actually changed from your original zeroed the rifle setting. But if you put elevation into your computer program and also barometer readings you must correct the barometer reading to sea level or calculations will be wrong.

Lets say you move from 3500 elev to 4500 and the barometer reads different  (the one you take with you); you only need to change the barometer reading in the program and not elevation within the computer program to obtain the corrections for the new altitude. IF you are using a weather bureau or other local instrument it will have been corrected to altitude so you must also input the elevation. I hope I said this right.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:05:58 (ZULU)



Pat said, "If the car runs like an thinks its at 7000ft maybe my bullets do too."

Bingo. The corrections are of course not quite the same, but air density certainly affects drag as well as factors which go into supercharger or turbocharger performance.

Mr. Rogers: if one is going to use a computer program to compute ballistic data with a view to shooting more accurately in different environments, one must first ensure that the program computes data which correspond to the results we get from shooting. For example, if you put your environmental data, muzzle velocity, and bullet data into the program, and it computes an elevation for some distance than is different from what you actually get, you must correct the program, so that the computed results match the results from shooting.

The easiest way to do this is usually to adjust the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, until the results match. Once that is done, when you are shooting in a different environment the computer solution will more closely match the actual performance of the bullet in the new environment.

And for that to work, it's also a good idea to ensure that the elevation adjustments of a given scope are also either accurate or at least consistent. I had a Leupold which was about 5 percent off, and it certainly required adjustment to the data I got from a ballistic program.

Hitting targets at long distances in varying environments is not a simple task. That's both the good news, and the bad, as the difficulty is one of the things which makes it interesting. :-)

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:41:26 (ZULU)


Joe and Doug, the Tikka T3 tactical is available with a picatinny rail. The Sako should be easy enough to fit a picatinny to. If you need Sako factory rings let me know cos i can get them here easy enough. The Tikka T3 is a very nice rifle, the stock is a bit flexible at the front end and could do with a bit more clearance, otherwise a great gun, Tikkas and Sako's come from same company, both have always been stylish nicely finnished rifles that 99.9% of the time display exeptional out of the box accuracy. McMillan have stock inletting programs for the Model 65, 55,595,658,659 sako 75 according to thier paperwork.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:42:21 (ZULU)


Don't the Sakos have threaded holes to bolt scope rings to?

I thought I saw something in their catalog that had some sort of quick detach scope mounts (which I wouldn't want). Maybe I misread.

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 18:57:24 (ZULU)


GUN CONTROL

Just found this on an airgun forum and applies to across the pond folks more but maybe everyone should read and see what could be coming our way.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/controls_on_firearms.pdf

This is requesting feedback from those living in England, Scotland and Wales regarding proposed changes.

You can click on my name to get there as well

Later,

Byron Email this member See this member's profile
CA, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 20:27:09 (ZULU)


Byron,

Wow,

I thought that might be something encouraging from the brits, shoulda known better. Whadda crock of sh...

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 22:17:06 (ZULU)


Byron,

Drivel like that will never make it to our shores and knowing never to say never, even if it did, there'd be hell to pay.

They harp on controlling "gun crime" when what they should be controlling is CRIME period.  This from a country that penalizes the VICTIM if he fights back and bends over for the PERP!  WTF??!!  Just like most, if not all, of Europe does now.

When you don't have a Constitution (or ANY document) that specifically enumerates God-given rights, it becomes real easy to implement gun control or registration or whatever you want to call it.

And then they show those stupid "gun deaths per 100,000" for various countries.  Of course, the US tops the list while those "civilized" countries have much lower rates.  But they fail to show the "deaths per 100,000" for things like baseball bats, kitchen forks, chopsticks, machetes and all the other utensils that have replaced the "gun" as the defensive weapon d'jour in those "civilized" places!

Propaganda for the state educated fools, girly men and anybody else that goes "baaaaaaaa!"

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 22:23:33 (ZULU)


Doug,

I use a Sako 75 stainless synthetic in 270 for work.  Everyone else here uses the Tikka in 308.  I had my choice and chose the Sako.  Sako has a nicer finish and 'feels' quality.  The double stack magazine works very well too with a 5 round mag sitting flush with the stock and can be loaded from the top (in the rifle).  Tikka is single stack with the 5 rounder sitting well out there.

On performance, both rifles shoot very well.  At least mine did till it was threaded for a moderator.  JR had a look at the crown and said it was none too good and gave it a wizz with the drill.  Still haven't tried it on paper, but does seem to be shooting better on deer.  Under 1" @ 100yds with factory hunting ammo (Sako and RWS) is the norm with several of the rifles in the 0.5" region.  

If I were going for a Tikka I would go for the Continental (heavy barrel).  I don't like the Tikka stocks in general, particularly the palm swell, but I do like the Continental (except its wood :-/).  Sako stock fits me like a glove.  Both on my rifle and a couple of the Tikkas I have had to relieve the forend to prevent the barrel touching.  Seems to be a particular problem if using a bipod and/or moderator (suppressor).  Its no big deal with a piece of sandpaper.

Triggers are great on both and are easily adjusted with an allen key down to a 2lb clean crisp pull.  Can't honestly see a need to replace them.

Also have a new T3 Lite in the District.  The stock is truely aweful, it feels like a cheap kid's toy.  Tikka have really let their name down with it.

I don't think you would be disappointed with either Sako or Tikka.  Try and get your hands on both makes and a few types if you can before you buy.

As for calibre, I chose 270 over 308 for deer work.  Flatter shooting at the ranges we work and harder hitting.  I have seen deer (sika) run off and not found after being hit a bit back with a 308, when the same shot with the 270 would have had it on the deck within 50-100yds.

Hope it helps.

Jon

Oh yeah, the Sako rings are advertised as being 'quick release' and said to be repeatable.  Not convinced myself, too many 'bits'.  I would prefer a sturdier system myself after the first time I set the rings up they came loose.  The ring screws into a base that is then slid over the dove tails on the receiver and tightend down with a soft screw.  After they came loose I screwed the rings to the bases r-e-a-l tight after gluing the threads.  Then replaced the soft screws that clamp the bases to the rifle with an allen headed machine bolt; and screwed that down r-e-a-l tight too (remember JR, screw em' till they squeak ;-) ).  Not moved since.

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 22:44:39 (ZULU)


Lindy & readers; there is very little to disagree with what Lindy seems to be saying. It goes without saying that a computer program must accurately reflect what the rifle is doing at a particular set of conditions before it's much value when the conditions change.

The fact that some scopes don't adjust accurately would be aside from any computer error. What you say about the likelyhood of scope adjustments being off correct of course.

A shooter needs to be aware of each and every click of that scope turret to be sure that it does accurately move the bullet along with the computed data. Those clicks should each be observed not usually  by shooting but with devices such as screen cluminators (bore sighters) in order to determine their repeatability and accuracy. The amount of range of the turrets and the change during power changes is also or at least can be observed in that way. You may shoot to confirm the results and that's what Sunday afternoons are for. (This has all been said here many times but now and then we have to repeat it for those who just changed channels.)

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 01:04:52 (ZULU)


Doug:  You oughta wait til Rick, Kevin, Lito Mike, Gooch, George, Bobby, Sarge, Marius, or any other hawg replies to your post---now there is an honor!  

A few years ago, Lito did just that for me....and I realized that I may have finally contributed to a conversation.  Me, I am no spectacular shot nor am I very smart on the finer points of ballistics--but these guys are!

On DA:  It is THE factor for how much weight I'll fly with.

Gents:  Between Doug and the applause at the airport--I'm gonna be insufferable.  Jeez, lookit me big ol' head!  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 01:07:25 (ZULU)


From www.adoptasniper.org ... Wife cusses out SNIPER on SAT phone.

Ya know those irritating telemarketer guys from ATT that call every PM when you get off of work, wanting you to change phone services ?

Well, a Sniper in the desert, ON AN ATT SAT PHONE ... sounds a WHOLE lot like one. Pauses between answers and all, ATT on the caller ID ...

Well ... I got no answer after the ring and hung up on the poor fellow that called (who was just coming off his watch) the FIRST time.

He called back two or three more times and the wife tried to answer each time. When they finally connected ... the wife (full blooded Cajun) flipped the selector switch and let him have a full magazine.  Slammed the phone down ... WHAM. ... Wow ! Shock and Awe ... That'll teach 'im ...

You go girl.

He braved it again ... I answered this time.

"I am sorry sir, I'm calling from Iraq but I think I made your wife mad ..."

Had to explain ... lmao

Wife: "Is he a SNIPER ? ... "

Me: "Yes Ma'am. United States Marine Corps Sergeant, risking life and limb to preserve your right to cuss him out ..."

She feels terrible ...  

Sorry RJ.

_________________

"The most deadly weapon on any battlefield is the single well-aimed shot"

CPT Jim Land, USMC

Sniper School Instructor

1st MAR DIV Vietnam 1966

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 02:40:04 (ZULU)


Joe, re:Sako rings:

Sako distribution seems to be good into Canada.

I see the Sako Optilock rings and bases listed in a Canadian mailorder catalog (Le Barons).  These folks normally have good access to the products they list.

I think they'll do export to the US, if not I can probably help.

At the present moment, we don't have export regs like the US ITAR rules in place, so I don't yet need an export permit for same.

If you need more details let me know.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 04:18:54 (ZULU)


BKS:  CPT Land was dead-on.  

So called suppressive fire is often mistaken for making alot noise, shooting to shoot, as it were. Even the Marines do this, and I concede to all you Jar-heads that you ARE the best-trained Riflemen of the services--just remember back to the Fallujah battles.  We all saw the spray and pray employed from behind a wall.  I can tell ya from a few years of taking fire that after the first few shocks--only that which is aimed at ya gets and keeps your attention.  Mortars tend to be random, rifles with sights ought not be.  There are many impediments to fixing this problem--but none insurmountable.  Heck, these wars will do much of the "attitude" fixes all by themselves.  Many young officers and mid grade NCOs will come back remembering how it woulda been great to have hit the BGs on any given day---they will stress the basics.  Training needs to be a snowball rolling through units.  As a strong willed leader gets the thing going---it takes on a life of it's own.  CPT Land was one such man.  This effect wasn't widespread in the "Nam---because we tended to discard vets as fast as we made them.  But the many vets who stayed made huge strudes in the early 80s with training.  Now, we are doing two things different:  First, we rotate by units---this gives a chance to refine the lessons' learned at the training base; and second, we are doing it all with volunteers (no draft) so a larger percentage will stay around to keep the training going down the road.  Plus, the CSA and his cohorts realize the importance of marksman ship and have begun increasing the requirements.  This is all good.

The next problem to accomplishing meaningful changes in basic marksmanship is funding.  The single biggest roadblock here is Rummy--he is sold on high-tech solutions and a vision of change that may have been relevant before 9/11 but is DOA now.  He needs to wake up and smell the Humas.  What good is a millimeter wave riding missile if the platform can't get close enough to paint and launch? In an assymetric environment, we need people who can shoot, move and communicate.  Then the sexy toys can finish the job if needed.  I haven't seen the smart bomb yet that distinguishes between a family at home and a terrorist safe house...

We need bullets.  We need plenty in Iraq and a whole lot more in CONUS.  We need new barrels, not new plastic guns.  In that, we not only need to double the zero and quals---but we need to add quarterly live fire scenarios at the squad and maybe platoon level.  Stressful shoots, with noise and smoke and movement.  Anyone can be taught to shoot---but we need shooters that can do it when the game is on.  Staid little KD ranges are nice, but that should only be the beginning.

Money can't solve everything--but it sure would go a long way to a more effective war on terror if used to by small arms rounds!

I will be bitterly pissed if I get to this MOB job and find a constraint on bullets.  Heheh---I am prepared to be pissed, and am thinking of ways to find (divert) funding already!

Rant off.  Baby-sitting (wife is getting a much needed break) makes for some good roster-time!

Geoff:  Due to my mom buying a house (with my down payment)---we cancelled Disney (grrrr---a year of dreaming).  If you have a day off---let me know if you wanna shoot.  

Last:  My AR barrel moves about 5 degrees either way off center.  If I take the front post and upper receiver, it is a bit loose.  It shoots well and locks up fine---but none I ever played with before does this.  Should I worry?

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 04:55:37 (ZULU)


Ref: M-14

I spent yesterday shooting in Utah with a friend.  I got some trigger time on an M-14. Brrrrrrrrrrp.......now that was the fun part.  I haven't created a beaten zone in a long time....it was good for me.

;-)

Back to work tomorrow.

Ref: Storm Mountain Sniper Match

Who's going?

Kevin R. Mussack Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 11:22:39 (ZULU)


Kevin - "Storm Mountain match"  - do you have info, etc...??? didnt know one was gonna happen.....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 11:28:38 (ZULU)


Ref: Storm Mountain Match

September 25&26/Usual stuff plus a 10 mile forced march with #40 pack.

Kevin R. Mussack Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 11:35:04 (ZULU)


Lindy,

 Thanks for the info, an your exactly dead on when you say its damn hard to hit a target first time out at long range in all conditions. But hell if it was easy then everyone would be doing it!!!!!! Thats why we practice, practice, practice..........

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 13:04:29 (ZULU)


Joe: You said the barrel in your AR moves about 5 degrees.  Is the bbl (extension) moving in the upper receiver, or is the whole upper receiver/bbl assembly moving on the lower? Makes a BIG difference.

By the by, guys, I got an e-mail that has boogered up the computer; gonna hafta reformat the hard drive to get rid of it.  All I did was open my Hotmail account and WHAM! For the time being, you get anything from gthammer@hotmail.com, LEAVE IT ALONE.  Now, I'm not averse to looking at nekkid wimmin, but not on the computer, gots little girlie childs living here.  FYI.....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 13:51:40 (ZULU)


Kevin

 Storm Mountain Match..

 I'm planning to attend, my partner has yet to make a ghillie or fire a few practice rounds, should be interesting.

 See you there either as a competitor or observer.

 

Joe Mahon

 You get a chance to go over to the Hide-A-While yet??  If so say Hi to Sally and the Hoover (Randy, Steve & Joe) regulars.  Watch out for Steve, he gets stuck on auto-rewind some times.

 

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:00:45 (ZULU)



Joe - you're right on, sir. And the troops know it, too. I was recently chatting with the NCOIC of the sniper section of an airborne division, and was shocked to find out that I personally fired more rounds through my .308 last year than was allotted by the Army to his entire section. In my opinion, that amounts to criminal neglect. The guys like to shoot, and WANT to shoot, because they know it's their butts on the line. The cost of a single F-22 would buy a lot of cartridges. There is no excuse for not properly training the troops.

And despite your kind words, while the Marine Corps does a good job of teaching the fundamentals of markmanship in boot camp, I think the Army does a better job of teaching the skills necessary in combat, and, like the Army, the Marine Corps does a dismal job of skills maintenance after boot camp.

One of the characteristics of 4th generation warfare is that there is no rear area, so everyone, not just the infantry, needs shooting skills. "Wake up and smell the humus", indeed.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:01:02 (ZULU)


Mornin' All,

Thought I'd get in one last note before I go under the knife in the morning'.  I'll have my left wing outa commission fer a month or so after that soes typing will be even more of a struggle than it already is. It's my left shoulder and the only reason God gave me a right arm is to look like the rest of the world.  So much for my whinein'.

You guys have got me to thinking about Long Range shooting with a MODERN rifle. . . don't tell my black powder buddies!!!

I have seen some of Y'all mention shootin' a Remington 700 . . . well my old hunting rifle is a 700 BDL in .270 with a Leopold Vari X III 3.5 - 10 with parallax adj. fer optics purchased this back in the late 60s early 70s seems like I got it in 1968.  Seems like I gave $180.00 for the rifle and $160.00 for the scope.  Spending $340.00 for the combo cost me a divorce. I missed her for a while!!

What is the consensus of opinion from you masters on the possibility of making it a LR shooter?

I never did like the trigger on the 700 felt sloppy . . not crisp like my Whitworth or Sharps.

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint sharp,

Jim

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:32:00 (ZULU)


WEll, .... a lot of good chat n suggestions on the roster lately, but maybe we all can do a small part on behalf of our brave service men and women by contacting our congressmen, both house and senate and inform them about the sheer stupidity of not giving the soliers their best opportunity to be more effective.  More bullets are cheaper then paying out life insurance.  Bottom line.....more training, real training,.... will increase survivability and lower all the costs both emotional and financial of troops coming home in bags.  These politicians dont see the family side of things, only the dollars.  

Steve S Email this member See this member's profile
Ft,. Bragg AO, North Cackilackie, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:44:05 (ZULU)


On another note.......

  Update on Monty........... the meds are working and hes down to one siezure a week and a mild one at that.  The hope is that with a little more time and tweekin of the med, there hopefully wont be any siezures at all.  Thanks so very much from my wife, son, daught-in-law and myself for all the preyers.

God bless you all and our troops!

Steve S Email this member See this member's profile
Ft,. Bragg AO, North Cackilackie, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 14:47:23 (ZULU)


This may have been covered long ago but I will risk asking

Most bullets are seated to a "calculated" depth based on many factors and are not crimped for accruacy due to variations of resistance and it's effect on the pressure curve and burn characteristics.  In a tactical/combat/hunting scenario where their are rounds in the magazine, the recoil from the first shot will force contact of the bullet in the mag well and shorten the OAL.  Does this have a significant impact on the accuracy (I think it would) and how is it dealt with.  Thanks for your replies

Mule

Mule Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 15:34:09 (ZULU)



Jon

Thanks for the reply. I can't see buying the Sako if the only option is the quick detach rings. I definitely want a simple bolt on system.

Joe

The praise has nothing to do with your shooting. I admire you and all the others for fighting those pieces of shit over there. Why don't they get a goddamn job, they won't have time to pray or fight.

Good luck to you and your family

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 15:42:34 (ZULU)


Joe M,

I had great hopes for the Army when Iraqi Freedom was happening.  It seems like now that the major ground combat is over the same old stuff is happening again.  You are absolutely right in that soldiers need to know how to shoot, move, and communicate.  We didn't train that enough when I was in, and it seems it hasn't changed.

I think you are right that the only "fun" place to be is SOCOM.  I looked into going SF but decided that it would be detrimental to my new marriage.  That was over fifteen years ago and we are still married.  I can say for sure that I made at least one correct decision in my life.

I still have hopes that the Army will wake up and smell the coffee, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  The bureaucracy rules.

Jim

JimT Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 16:42:37 (ZULU)


Doug,

I wouldn't let the rings bother you too much. Just make sure they are on tight and don't think of them as 'QD'.  Our rifles are used everyday during the season, in and out of vehicles, banged about and knocked over and I haven't yet seen one shift zero (other than mine before I tightened it up and loctited the threads).  The new(er) Tikkas use the same rings as the Sako I believe.

Jon

Jon Beardsley Email this member See this member's profile
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 17:01:58 (ZULU)


Stev S, all my prayers.  Hope things get better.

Kevin, ten mile martch with pack?  Now that is closer to a match than I have seen in awhile. Good job Rod.  One of the things I truly like about Rod Ryan and his events is you have to carry everything all the time. Now what will the guys do with all that equipment, bench rests, weather stations, computers, portable reloading stations, Big old drag bags and 20lbs bench rest rifles?  I bet George could make  a mint standing half way through the course with sited in GA Precision Rocks.

Pat, I will take you up on that offer.

Lindy, cant agree with you on who does the better training.  I think it goes more base to base and commander to commander than that.  I have seen some pretty outstanding training at Pendeleton.  The field craft taught there is as good as I have seen.  Shooting is excellent also. I once gave up 500 rds of 308 Match to an Army Sniper Unit I was training because they had no match ammo and shooting 147 ball was not giving them alot of confidence.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 17:45:42 (ZULU)


Gents,

Lots of good posts. Seems we agree on about everything...

Steve, good news on Monty. Know it's rough seeing him go through this...you can feel pretty helpless at times. He's in our prayers.

On training: You can't get enough trigger time. When I retired we did a yearly qualification in the Marines. NOT enough, although the KD course did instill confidence that you could hit at 500.

F-22's. Seems to me I read the price tag was going to be $200,000,000 plus. That'll by a lot of ammo and training.

Looks like SOCOM is getting whatever they ask for...to bad the other services don't get like treatment.

All for now. Taking the grand kids to the mountains today. Bet I'm gonna hurt in the morning...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 17:50:18 (ZULU)


For those shooting a .243 Winchester.  I decided to try some Hornady 105 grain Amax bullets in my factory Remington 700 VS.  Only thing done to the rifle is a trigger adjustment.  I shot three groups of three shots each at 100 yards.  The smallest group measured 0.152”.  Largest group measured 0.704”.   Average of the three groups was 0.426”.  

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 18:55:44 (ZULU)



Okay...I'm your huckleberry...

Its REAL easy to bitch that you cant get training in the military.  However I will tell you that if a unit aint getting trained right its more than likely traceable to a shit head NCO.  Remember I done the E-1 through CWO thing okay so I seen all sides of the issue.

NCO's have to forcast training, develop a plan, submit requests etc.  Ammo has to be forcast, ranges locked on etc.  Some guys dont understand the process.  Some think that when they pin on rockers its time to take the pack off.  Shitte, thats when the work starts....

It also takes INITIATIVE.  When I had a sniper section we would do range estimations, tgt detections, stalks etc whenever there was a spare moment.  I would work with other battalions in the regiment to share training resources, ranges, ammo etc.  1/5 and 3/5 once spent 2 days on a range in Pendleton slinging lead till we were tired of it.  Cant get Match ammo???  Snag some LMG ammo and go get dope for it....

NCO's have to understand training and have to dig to make it happen sometimes. I got the "Sorry Sgt Gooch we cant get that training area/ammo etc, for you" many times....Shiite....We trained anyway...Sometimes it was just humping off behind the regimental area and doing survival training but my job was to keep our sorry asses out of garrison so my shiite heads wouldnt get in trouble!!!! Spent many days snagging Z's off in some corner of Pendleton.  BUT WE WERE AWAY FROM THE FLAGPOLE and in the bush... Loved those assholes...

Oh yeah.. And if you are just training to minimum standards...you aint training...

Out here

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 20:30:23 (ZULU)


Mike: I think that's right. I was thinking less of the guys with long guns, though, than of the guys with M4s. The MEUs get to shoot a reasonable amount during their pre-deployment workups, but I don't think most others get near enough trigger time. And Kent is right that shooting is not all there is to training, too. But given that Joe M. has been in the sandbox, and he doesn't think there's enough time training, nor do guys I've talked to recently, I think we can do better - and should.

Ted Fehrenbach, in his book _This Kind of War_, about Korea, said:

"Americans in 1950 rediscovered something that since Hiroshima they had forgotten: you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life -- but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud."

We keep forgetting that - we forgot it again between Korea and Vietnam, and apparently again since, perhaps several times. And "transformation" hasn't changed that. And those young men ought to be able to shoot.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 20:50:06 (ZULU)


Been at the Doctors today, got a bunch of tablets to swallow for Lymes Disease.. damn them ticks..

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 22:31:41 (ZULU)


Lindy re: MEU's and ammo

My understanding that the full acronym is MEU/SOC (or something very close).  SOC is "Special Operations Capable".  Wanna bet that the SOCOM fairy waves her magic wand over the MEU ammunition allocation?

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 22:32:19 (ZULU)


Joe M,

Sent you an email.

Vaughn

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 23:00:04 (ZULU)


Lack of funding and misplaced priorities. Yep, they exist alright. We've been dealing with it since 1775! Remember General Washington pleading with Congress to pay and feed the Army?

The Pentagon is as much at fault as the government.

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 00:34:28 (ZULU)


MEU-SOC's aint got nuttin to do with SOCOM.

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 00:57:04 (ZULU)


Major Joe,

Email inbound. RE a buddy goin to the sandbox for a year.

PeteL,

Lymes is eazy mate. African tick bite fever really sux. I still get sick to this day from it! When you go down there, remember to watch for the black ticks with red spots. They don't even have to bite you for you to get sick, they can just walk on you and you can get it. Fatal if untreated, or so they told me.

Steve,

Good news on Monty. You gotta love modern medicine sometimes!

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 20, 2004, at 01:55:53 (ZULU)


Well, just spent the day on the range with the new students.  Long day and a hot day.  Students are motivated and willing to spend the time, I'm just getting old and wornout.  :)

Altitude vs baro, both Exbal and Horus aloows you to input either baro or altitude but not both and the prefered is baro with temp and humidity which is easy enough to get off the Kester.

We use the Mil Dot master for the normal shots and the computer for those shots over 1000 meters where we need to get on fast.

Rod - well Gooch answered that.  The MEUs are not in SOCM so no fairy wands to wave.

Gooch - Amen brother on the NCO.  All and I mean ALL units have the capability to train and get what they need, but it requires the NCOs to get off their butt and forcast and request the ammo, ranges, training areas, etc.  I get the butt when officers get involved in training but a get a worse case of the butt when NCOs don't do their business and require the officer to get into the training.  Officers are there to say what needs to be done and when it needs to be done by, the NCO says HOW it is to be done and who is to do it.  Simple and works most of the time.  

Too blasted tired, .... must...... get.................... ressssttt!

Hold hard guys

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 02:14:37 (ZULU)


Gooch:  I will agree to a point with the NCO thing.  Remember, I did the NCO thing too.  As a CO, I was a culture shock; SGT's Time Training (all morning one day per week, starting with PT, ending after lunch) was mandated to be tactical tasks by me---none of which could occur anywhere near a building or phone.  You'd think I just executed someone initially.  But these tasks are simple hands on substitutes for team training.  Good, but only so far.  The whole point of of training is to kill the BGs.  No simple stalk or land nav, or dime washer drill will sub for life fire; the team building of a squad assault course is first rate stuff.  A quarterly program that builds from the KD to a full blown live fire scenario is what's needed.  Returning effective fire while under fire is the objective, and it takes some noisy distractions to even approximate this.  And, it seems that the troops doing alot of the shooting are the kids running supplies up and down the roads.  Every troop in uniform needs to have the same basic standards, then add even more for the grunts and the other "operators."  As is, "allocations" are for 160 rounds per line soldier per year, half that for support.  That equates to 2 days on the range, or just one.  There is the lack of training I talked about.  If troops aren't out training---then shoot the commander and let the next guy figure it out.  But, the NCA and Joint Chiefs need to resource the bullets, man.  That is where the money can be made in proficiency.  

Emails to me:  I will try again tomorrow---AKO and my satellite ain't getting along today.

Barrels' loose on the AR; my "builder" did a house call (Lauer's Custom Weapons employee/ friend--shameless plug---these guys in Chippewa will take great care of ya--Duracoat is a pretty nice product, and "cans" built to spec--they are also about to machne out their own line of .45s).

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 20, 2004, at 02:40:09 (ZULU)


Joe,

My email was to ask you if you'd be willing to share your 'lessons learned' from your trip overseas, with the forum on the new Adopt A Sniper website.  There is a specific spot for this information.  Doesn't have to be sniper specific, as many of these guys need to know the stuff about convoys, etc....obviously nothing that is sensitive in nature, but I know you know that.

If anyone else just returned, or is still deployed, when you have a minute, please pass along your knowledge so it doesn't have to be relearned the hard way.

www.adoptasniper.org

Thanks,

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 16:09:52 (ZULU)


I'll throw this out there about training and then shut up.  I was never an NCO.  Started out as a 2LT out of West Point and 6 1/2 years later got out as a CPT.  I was in armored cav units in between staff jobs.  In my limited experience, small unit commanders i.e. troop commanders, got very little time to dictate the training they wanted to do.  Training requirements came down from on high and by the time we got done with EEO and all the other myriad of non-combat task training, then we had to keep the metal beasts running.  Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.  Then there were the post requirements (guard detail, grass mowing, OOD, etc).  We also had to get ready for tank gunnery all the time.  Throw in border patrol requirements and don't forget going to Reforger/Hoenfels/NTC, etc.  Didn't leave a lot of time for the NCO's to do their thing.  The poor 19D's (cav scout) had an MOS task book the size of the LA phone book and it would have been hard to maintain all those skills even if they didn't have all the other mandated tasks to do.  In regards to shooting I personally went to the small arms ranges two times while I was in line units.  Once in Germany and once at Ft Carson, and that was one day each for mandatory quals.  In the Army at that time small arms ammo was hard to come by, as was range time.  After I got out a buddy of mine told me that they added environmental training to the training schedule, among other things.  Since I got out of the Army I have gotten much better training in small arms as an LE officer than I ever did in the military.

I always kind of envied the light infantry units the extra time they had to train because they didn't have steel horses to take care of all the time.  OTOH, it was nice having a heater when the weather got lousy, and we could carry lots of comfort stuff on the vehicle.  ;)

My personal wish is that the military would set aside everything not absolutely necessary (i.e. politically correct training) and concentrate on the three basics (shooting, moving, and communicating).  Those three tasks are complicated enough to productively occupy a soldier's time.  However, I am enough of a realist to know that the PC stuff is only going to get worse, especially if Kerry is elected.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Jim

JimT Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 16:22:52 (ZULU)


Gotta see this fellas:  Silent auction going on an AR-10 and Beretta 96, both done in digital camo....proceeds to AAS.

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/sniper.htm

Sponsor of auction, Frank Borelli, donated the Beretta out of his pocket for the cause.

Many pics at the site.

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 16:38:49 (ZULU)



This is an extract of an National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Army Lieutenant General Reinwald about sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop on his military installation.

Interviewer: "So, LTG Reinwald, what are you going to do with these young boys on their adventure holiday?"

LTG Reinwald: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."

Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"

LTG Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range."

Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"

LTG Reinwald: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline before they even touch a firearm."

Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

LTG Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"

End of the interview

I know it's probably bogus, but darned funny anyhoo.

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
PSL, FL, US - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 19:57:26 (ZULU)


re: Reinwald interview

Snopes says it is a false urban legend.

(and provides details of their investigation).

Too bad.

http://www.snopes.com/military/reinwald.htm

or click on my name

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 23:15:47 (ZULU)


Dang! Looking like a family reunion around here lately!

Well, there ain’t no family reunions around here without the redneck contingent, so I’se invited, right? I would say the Cajun contingent, but I see InSain’s already here Bon Jour!

Majuh Joe, Welcome home amigo! Hope you’re enjoying the heck out of the family. Remember, I DO know what you said you were going to do first thing when you got home. HA!

Master Rick, good to see you back and hear that about Blaine. Used to be that he and I corresponded on a pretty frequent basis, before I had to go into hiding for the legal war. Next time you talk to him, I’d consider it a personal favor if you’d pass along this note and a request to drop me a line. Heck, I remember when he said he was starting that project. That boy is a smart puppy. If he’s been at it this long, it’s got to sing AND dance!

Patron Guinsu Rebuild, you still planning on making SHOT? Seems like with the problems you’re having, I might actually stand a chance of keeping up with you LOL!

MedicJim, man, you know I mean no disrespect, but you can do anything with a 308 you can do with a 270? Maybe I’m channeling the spirit of Jack O’Connor, but I’m not comfortable making that statement.

And Sir Wes talks about Whit. I’ll second that! I’ve still got notes from talking to Whit, and that makes the statement right there ;-)

JR, you barrel pulling madman you!

Lindy, so you know about Leadville eh? Cool. Lots of family from there.

Tikka / SAKO country: I’ve shot against a guy with a built SAKO. Basically, he liked the action better than the Rem / Wins, and did a good job on it. Did his own smithing, as he was a smith. The rig was completely comparable to the best rigs that I’ve run against, and pretty much kept the top notch in the pack while I was there. If I remember right (if I’m lying, it’s accidental, so someone please correct me) Ben used a Tikka at Sniper I. You out there Ben? He held his own pretty well, and as I recall, he was the only one NOT using a bipod! BTW, I still think you should have let him use your ruck on that one shot Patron Mike ;-) In other words, if the Tikka / SAKO is bad, they’re as bad as a good Rem / Win.

Revrund Moe, tell us how you really feel ;-) Glad you got your cans man, really I am.

And my question of the day (actually revisiting a question), is muzzle attachment choice! We’ve got flash hiders, and we’ve got muzzle brakes. The way I figure it, from an engineering standpoint, there should be a way to make a brake (or compensator, whatever you want to call it), that also diminishes, reduces, or eliminates flash as well. I haven’t seen one, other than a can. So my big question is about WHICH one to choose! To date, I’ve always had flash hiders, as I figured that stealth would be my friend. Some speed drills lately, and especially firing that LOVELY M14E2 with the GI compensator on there, made a believer out of me. If I can keep a ’14 in auto rocking and rolling, but not rolling over me, that’s EFFECTIVE. I know one of our greatly esteemed contributors (yeah, I’m talking about you DC8Plumber!!!) believes in them for the mousegun as well. Understanding his great results, I’ll bite. At this point, I’m leaning towards trying to tame flash through powder burn rate, etc, and working with a comp. Any suggestions? Who makes the most effective brake that won’t blind me at night?

Drop me a line DC8... please!

Kevin, I’m greatly offended. Here you’re out my way and didn’t stop by to say hello? You and Andy going to do SHOT again this year as well? I’ll have to find you, buy you a beer, and then give you a wedgie for not being friendly ;-)

Steve S, keep the good news coming. I like to hear it.

Now if Patron Sinister were here, we’d be in tall cotton.

All the best amigos!

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 20, 2004, at 23:15:57 (ZULU)



Guys,

I have a question about Lapua Brass ( 300 Win. Mag. ) I purchased 100 from Sinclair....!  BUT, When I measured the O.A.L. they were about .005" +/-001" undersize.  The recommended trim length for the 300WM. is 2.610" when I measured, they were 2.605", is this common?  - And Yes, I check my Calibers for accuracy?  I know after a few reloads they will stretch..... Just wonder if this is common manufacturing practice for Lapua with all calibers????

Thanks,

BearMan   :)

BearMan Email this member See this member's profile
Indy., Indiana, U.S.A. !!! - Friday, August 20, 2004, at 23:51:06 (ZULU)



Ref: interview with General

Well shukydurn! Just when I thought some one grew some cajones and threw political correctness out the window and tell it like it is, it turns out to be false. Sheeeesh!Well maby some day!

Vern

Vernon Email this member See this member's profile
Houston, TX, Where but the U.S.A. - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 00:28:10 (ZULU)


Bravo:

Sorry, my bad, next time, yes we'll be at SHOT, I'll buy.

Ref: Storm Mountain

Andy just landed a new job and his vacation is a no-go for a while.  So I'm in the market for a partner.  My roadmarch pace is only 3.3/3.5 mph but I finish.  Doc?

Kevin R. Mussack Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 01:41:22 (ZULU)


Ok Bravo, I'm not one to pass up an opportunity to learn.  What advantages does the .270 offer over a .308?

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 01:58:55 (ZULU)



I can only speak from expereience I hope it's not enhanced by time.

In the early 60's I was with "F" 2/7.

Gouch if you have been stationed at Pugas you know "Sheepshit"  I don't think it has been wore down yet. :-)))

Everyone where you went you had to climb it. received good training.

However when  I was transferred to "E" 2/5 and training really began.

Our C.O. was a mustang Capt named Hunter. The Co Gunny was a Recon Marine named Kirk, The Plt Sgts was a Samoan and a Philppino that had dealt with the Japanese when they were young. All four had been in Korea

THe USMC had a intense 3 month training cycle called "lock-on" where you spend most of the time in the field---M-F.

Capt Hunter ran the unit like it was "lock-on" most of the time. If were not in the field  training he had us being used as "aggressors" for the other training units

Training classes were not held in a inside classroom. A route march there,  classes,  then a route march back

The C.O. PT'd us endlessly,  He and the NCO's led us, Those that thought they could assign jobs then go the the PX and then check on us when we were though, didn't stay around long they were transferred.

Even thought we didn't much trigger time (live fire problems) we receive more then the rest of 2/5, or maybe the whole Regiment.

We learned to make Fu gas and then used it in the Flame Throwers.

45 Ammo appeared so that those that wanted to train with it could fire on the weekend.

Training included full field gear including the flak jackets at times. Full cammo also I still have photos of me looking like a bush in front of the barracks at Camp Margarita.  Green Utilities cammo'd with black and brown shoe dye and decorated with branches, face cammo.

A little Humor, we were training at Casey Springs in cammo and the Excerise Commander came by and wanted to know what recon unit we were?  Had to layoff the  self cammo'd Utilities for a while

Unused Blanks were buried so they be could be used on the next field excerise, instead of being turned in for someone else.

Illum Gernades, trip flares Etc. Where this stuff came from was unknown at the time. but the other companies didn't seem to have the goodies.

We learned to make trip flares that didn't give the tell--tell ping of the spoon flying off.

A lot of night excerises.

The USMC was experimenting with a "Raider Co" and guess what? we were volunteered by the C.O. Training relly got good after that.

I guess my point is that IF you have the NCO's that are willing to give what it takes, the training can be had.

A Gung Ho Capt that is respected by your marines also helps He ran when we ran, he slept in the foxholes when we did, when we ate "C" Rats so did he.  He had a Mighty Mite & driver but he walked with his field gear like the rest of us,

Take it out of the classroom and into the field where your going to be using it in the end. For a GRUNT the field is the classroom.

Teach it--- use it-- review it----tweak it  all in one location-- test the theory,& make it yours.

Not comparing the OLD CORPs with the New Corps just hopeing the training  mind set is continuing

RANT OFF

Semper Fi

It made a difference in 1965 when it was needed

bomac Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 05:26:39 (ZULU)


Gents,

Got my rant completed, but can't get it to post. Will work on it some more. Think you'll like the read.

Bravo, Whit is hell on wheels. Though never in the military he has done more for our country than most service personnel. In addition to owning Engel Ballistic Research he is a member of the Bastrop County Sheriff Dept(Reserve) and a designated sniper. With his knowledge of subsonics, ammunition manufacture, and skill he'd be a tough adversary for the bad guys.

Hunting buddy just back from eastern Oregon. Got a nice 13 3/4" antelope buck. Everyone I know that drew tags scored this year.

Steve missed a 300 yard shot on one that he estimated at 15"+. A real monster for Oregon.

Time to start my scouting in earnest for deer and elk season. Tag for bear and cougar, too. If my luck holds I may see cougars, again.

Spotted two last year hunting. Neither was aware of my presence. Hunted that area and grew up there. No cougar seen there by me or just about anyone. Then I see two in one season. Yup, they're coming back. That is 'til someone gets hurt of killed. Then the typical knee jerk reaction.

Stan, are you NUTS? The .270 Winch better than the .308? Blasphemy!

Take a close look at ballistics with like bullet weights. Almost a trade off with the edge going to the .270. Compare the .308 to just about any non magnum cartridge and it holds it's own. Some have an edge, but at normal hunting ranges it's not an issue. If you gotta have a wimp caliber shoot the 6.5 X .284 rather than the .270...;-)

Hell, it used to be the .300 Savage was bad ju-ju...

All for now. Prayers for all.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 07:23:38 (ZULU)


Hello again all.

I'd like to convey my personal experience with training while deploying in support of OIF II.  I am a reservist Apache mechanic.  We mobilized in January and February of this year and arrived in Kuwait in early March.  While in the states, we did the standard Army zero and qualification along with a night qualification and NBC qualification.  For those we fired approximately 98 rounds, if you were a first time go.  Then we did a close quarters course which took about 40 rounds; just training, no grading standard.  After we arrived in Kuwait though, we got to burn a full 180 rounds, some fired their 30 "Force Protection" rounds as well.  Kuwait was quite good training to me, we fired from the vehicles we were actually going to ride on the convoy in, figured out all the little details like where the SAW was going to be spraying brass and that we needed to find ways to increase stability for the 16 firers.  Also, our SAW mount was rather wobbly, so we found ways to stabilize it.  (We also figured out that we had no method other than firer awareness to keep the muzzle of the SAW from drooping down far enough to hit the armor on our truck and probably ricocheting around inside the vehicle.  We never did find a fix for this so we just talked about it often to keep the thought in our SAW gunner's head.)  Now, in an average year, we get to fire only about 58 rounds, if we qualify the first time.  However, prior to mobilization we got to fire enough that I, at least, had confidence that my weapon would go boom when I asked it to and, if I did my part, would put the rounds within a reasonable distance of where I intended.  Now, MOS training was non-existent during mobilization, but, my MOS is not required for my survival.  At least, not in the immediate sense.  I felt that the training the Army gave us before we were allowed to cross the border prepared us for the drive up and life here.  Now, my thoughts were not proven.  Our convoy was not hit on the way up, probably because the tension of those involved probably gave off an aura of readiness visible very far away.  We were like Major Joe said, gunners behind the weapons, pointing them towards the nearest thing we deemed threatening, everyone trying to wear out the gears in their necks.  And, it worked.  We were not fired upon at all.  Arrival was a relief and a let-down.  I was glad we'd not been shot at but it felt like I'd been studying for a test and then went to the test site to be told that it'd been rescheduled.

 Since arrival, I have not had the opportunity to fire my weapon.  I know there is a range here, but I guess the grunts and the special ops guys are always using it.  It seems to be active almost every day, but I only know one person who's been there.  I admit that keeping the Apaches (who fire almost every day) airborne is probably better than keeping me (who hasn't fired yet) in practice, but I do feel I am being shortchanged.

 In conclusion, (I know, you've been holding your breath :-) I feel that the Army did provide sufficient ammo and training to bring us up to speed prior to going in country.  I do not know how the active guys were treated and I really don't know about the RDF guys, especially the infantrymen, but, I would call my training satisfactory.  The MOS I have had plenty of opportunity to practice since arrival and don't see it letting up any.  Our aircraft spend vast amounts of time in the air and that equates to vast amounts of MOS training for me.

Steve, very glad to hear about Monty.  He's still in my prayers.

Robert

R. H. Email this member See this member's profile
LSA Anaconda, Iraq - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 13:02:44 (ZULU)


Kevin

 I have a fella that's training up to be my partner but there's a chance he'll peter out or something.

 I'd be happy to partner up with you, your legs are a little longer than mine and those 17:15 miles at at my upper limit when packed out but I'll git'er done if needs be.

 I do need to double check with with my current partner often but so far he's still on track to go, I'll keep you posted.  He still need a ghillie.

 Be sure to come no matter how it comes out, there'll be folks at SMTC to flop in with if it's like usual.

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 13:30:32 (ZULU)


Kevin: You get 3.5 mph with a full ruck?  Man, you'd pass me like I was standing still.  I started doing the ruck march thing already, to get somewhat prepared for the FTX in Phase II come November.  I started out with my Blackhawk Tactical pack, with attachments, but it only weighed about 30 lbs maxed out.  I switched everything into my trusty Alice medium, and dug out the LBE gear for more water and ammo pouches.  With rifle, I'm up to the 55 lbs I wanted.  I've been doing 10k marches with the tac pack, switched to the heavier gear and almost stroked out! Took me an hour forty-five with the wussy pack, just over two with the anvil strapped to my back.  Feet had forgotten about this crap.  I now remember that you can have three layers of blister on the damn things.  Oy vey is Mir!  I oughtta just stick to being a 50-year-old cop.  I know, I'll stach a box of Krispy Kreme dognuts at the end of the march, that oughtta get me motivated.  Nah, the county guys'd probably sniff them out before I got there.  

Well, speaking of that, I guess it's time.  If you don't hear from me again, tell Dirty Steve he can have the Savage, but Sarge gets the Howa.  

Oh, Magnum Hi-Tech makes a killer pair of desert tan rough-out hiking boots....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 16:52:08 (ZULU)


Wes’ Rant

Gents,

I’ve had the privilege to serve my country as a Navy enlisted man (EM2/DV) and as a Marine Corps Officer (2502/1302). Now I wear a third uniform. That of a correctional officer for the State of Oregon. You can assume from this that I either like uniforms (easy to dress in the morn) or enjoy serving our great county. The last is true.

Never, have I been happier than when I wore Navy dungarees and then Marine camouflage utilities. Now, at the ripe old age of 53, I’ve observed that the America I grew up believing in has been transformed into something very different by our government.

Somehow, the core values we grew up believing in (duty, honor, honesty, etc.) have been devalued, meanings changed (control the dictionary), history re-written, and our children given no hope for the future.

Apparently, while we were serving “over there”, keeping the world safe for democracy, we forgot to watch our six o’clock back at home. The wrong enemy may have been fought as our countries leaders prostituted our heritage for wealth and power. Those responsible would argue that this is “progress” and that I/We need to get with the program. These acts, IMHO, have been deliberate on the part of our leaders. That’s BOTH the democrats and republicans. Case in point is after President Bush’s inauguration he could have vetoed many of Bill Clinton’s presidential decree’s. He chose not to. The majority of them dealt with foreign policy and our relationship/support with the United Nations (U.N.). Thus creating the stage for our entry into the “New World Order”. Please note this will be a vote by our politicians (again) who will sell our country out for power and position in that abomination.

Frankly, the U.N. scares me worse than the communists ever did! Why are we being pushed in that direction? Because Bill Clinton is positioning himself to be the next Secretary General of the United Nations. Replacing Kofi Anon (sp?). With John Kerry seated in the White House for 4-8 years, possibly followed by the “bitch senator from New York”, for another couple terms there is little chance stopping this nightmare becoming reality. We can only hope that our voters are not so easily deceived.

If you caught the opening ceremonies for the Democratic Convention you may have noted that the backdrop flag was that of the United Nations. NOT the stars and stripes. I nearly vomited.

In these peoples minds this is progress AND it has already happened.

Perhaps, I’m just an alarmist, but I think not. The spore left by these predator’s is all to clear to anyone who looks. What the politicians have discovered is that in the “new” America many of the people want to be cared for from cradle to grave. They should know, because the stage was set, deliberately, to create voting blocks of those on the dole who will vote, not for what is good for our nation, but that which lines their pockets or increases their political power.

Illegal aliens? Can’t fault them as our government let them in and then confirmed them, later, as U.S. Citizens. If you had an opportunity to go to a country, get assistance, food, money, housing, and such wouldn’t you if you were poor? What I do fault illegal aliens for is not becoming “American”. They retain their own ways, allegiances, language and generally do not support our way of life. Personally, I’m tired of being asked if I want my banking in English or Spanish, see Mexican flags flown beside the U.S. Flag. The illegal influx has also brought crime with it. Not wanting to “melt” with America our illegal alien and legal immigrants see the land of plenty and want it all. Unfortunately, many will do anything to get it.

In the Corrections business we see all kinds of people. White, Black, Hispanic, Oriental, you name it. All have committed crimes to be incarcerated, but talking to them there’s darn few that will admit their crimes. Most were “bum beefed, set up, just holding it for the other guy”, etc. You get the idea. It’s a sad state of affairs when we can call the corrections a “growth industry”. Currently, Oregon spends 11% of its state budget to fund some 15 correctional institutions. Four new institutions are planned. That money could be used elsewhere. The people are going to have hard choices to make one of these days.

Please don’t take this rant as a slam against any race. I’ve served with all of them. And count many as friends, co-workers, and trusted companions. We ALL bleed red and trash comes in many colors, sizes, and shapes. If we were truly non-discriminatory we would never be asked our race or color.

If you want to see discrimination try being a 5’4”, white, college educated, 53 year old male, looking for a job…;-)

What I’m really trying to say is I vehemently dislike what has become “acceptable”.

We have the dumbing down of America. Where gifted students are forced to study at a speed that is determined by the “lowest common denominator”.

Great bumper sticker gets to the point: “My German Shepherd is smarter than your honor student”.

Than we get to morals. Is it any wonder why it’s getting hard to find a virgin under the age of 12 (That‘s 10 in Texas) Now that our former president decreed that oral sex “isn’t”.

How the hell did we let this happen? We voted, made good choices (we thought) and tried to work within the system. In most cases we sanctimoniously believed that those responsible would do the “right” thing for America. If the changing face of America is

“progress” our values package needs serious change back to where it came from.

It’s a sad state of affairs when a man’s word is no longer his bond, his honor for sale, and his holding officer is a means getting rich and joining the “club”. I daresay that our young men and women who are deployed to Iraq and elsewhere have more honor and integrity than the politicians who sent them there and THAT is a sad statement.

I’m sure you folks get my drift. We could sit here and self-proselytize each other forever. It’s getting the other guys to agree with us that needs to happen. That I fear is going to be a tough road to follow. We should try, anyway.

In closing I realize that I’ve only touched on a few of the problems (oops, that‘s opportunities). Welfare reform, latch key kids, brainwashing instead of educating, we could go on ad nauseam…

My prayers for our deployed troops and friends. Steve’s Monty, and all of you who have made Sniper Country a place where I can go rant and my friends on the list will understand.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 17:46:43 (ZULU)


Wes.. well said,i feel much the same exept i'm 35 and have no probs on the job front.

I would like to comment on the training situation as i saw it or as it was during my time in the British Army.

Basic Training was adequate, more range time would have been beneficial, after zeroing our issued weapon at Depot we where given maybe 2 mags to practicewith ( 20rdsx2, 7.62 for the L1A1 SLR) then it was time to attempt the APWT, those who passed first time, passed.. and those who didn't kept shooting until they passed. We did do more shooting on the 30 m range but it was with the adaptor sub caliber and 22lr ammo.

Trade Training as an Armourer was excellent and thorough, took about a year. Military training weekends where once a month, which usualy consisted of 2 nights in the field, NBC, First Aid, AFV recognition, Field Craft, some times some range time with your personal weapon, somtimes we where lucky enough to get a go on the LMG L4 ( aka Bren). the weekend usualy culminated in a march and shoot.

Prior to joining our first units we where given 2 weeks thorough Military Training as a refresher.

I was lucky enough to get posted to an Ifantry Regiment, Military training was an essencial part of Bn life. The LAD ( light Aid Detachment) would do military training along with the Cooks, Clerks, Tailors, MT drivers, Storemen and every one else in HQ Coy. It was frequent enough to be adequate, for planed deployments such as Northern Ireland, The Falklands, Cyprus or wherever there was usualy a planned period of training up for deployment, this would include usual military skills, emphasisingthose that would most likely be required, additional training such as search team training, defensive driving, training to use special issue kit, would always be included, the APWT was always part of the training, as where all the other annnual tests, some shooting practicewas done, but again it realy needed to be more, ammo was always on short supply. Bn or Coy exercises would come and go, as would Anti Tank, Mortars, and Recce concentrations, most of all these exercises required that at least a Fitter Section ( 2 Vehicle Mechanics ( VM) 1 Vehicle Electrician ( VE) and one Armourer ( Armr) went along. Each Coy had a designated fitter section, exept Support Coy ( or heavey weapons Coy depending on how it was called). so when Support Coy went off training hen the fitter sections of the other Coy's would take it in turns to support. Like wise when sections or small groups, such as Mortars, Anti Tank, Recce or the Bn Snipers went of training anywhere, a VM and an Armr would tag along to fix anything that broke, not i was lucky and i usualy didn't have much to do on exercise, having allthe weapons under my responsibility very much ship shape, so i would either help the VM, convince the MT Sergeant that i had a motor bike licence and bumb off as a dispatch rider for a few days, or i would muck in with the Jocks or the Toms and do the same training as they where doing, which was great, it meant i got very proficiant at my infantry skills and did a lot that most Army tradesmen never get to do, eg, be trained as part of a Mortar Crew, or Milan crew, or a rarden gunner, or a Bn Sniper, do E+E and survival courses and just be part of an infantry squad or platoon.

Periodicaly i ( as do all tradesmen) would return to the army trade school to do new equipment courses, trade upgrader courses or engineering, such as truning, etc courses, as i said before the trade training was always excellent. This kind of army life and training was basicaly the same through out the Inf Bn's i served with and the Airborn Arty, I was lucky enough to getout with the blokes, and get some range time, especialy as whenever a Brit Army unit goes shooting they take and Armr with em.. now for the rest of HQ Coy and the LAD ammo was always in short supply, except when we went on exercise to Canada or the USA, but then most of the tradesmen exept the Armr's where busy fixing vehicles and other equipment and thus couldn't take full advantage.

Now when i came to Germany and joined a Field Arty Reg't ( worst posting i ever had) then training got very thin on the ground,the Planks ( gunners) where all so busy polishing thier cannons ( M109's) the Workshop was very very busy fixing a shed load of kit and me and the other Regt Armr where busy as hell because we had the Arty regts weapons to fix, an Armoured field ambulance and a MP Coy  or detachments weapons also to fix, now that was a lot of guns for 2 blokes to sort out, approx 500x SA80 type weapons, 200 L1A1 SLR's,200 Sterling SMG's, 60 LMG (Bren) 60 GPMG, 120 Browning Pistols, plus all the turret mounted chain guns, plus all the unit and garrison match, hunting and sporting weapons, plus all the ancilliaries, field cookers, tilly lamps, kero heaters, and everything including the CO's bloody lawn mower. Training took a back seat, annual tests where performed, that was about it, Special Training for deploymentstook place and was adequate ( N Ireland, Op Granby, and for Bosnia etc) but general military skills training seemed to fall by the way side, of course the workshop went onto skeleton staff and overtime when ever deployment training was taking place, the equipment still needed fixing. Never was enough ammo available.

My last posting was with a Royal Signals Electronicwarfare unit, training was part and parcelof Regt life and it was good training, with many SAS trained sergeants and Sergeant Majors within the Regt.  Range time for the support troops was probably not adequate.

Now we come to a situation like we have now in Iraq, troops in convoys need to be able to shoot, that means cooks, mechanics every one.. now all through my 10 years service i saw support troops struggling to pas weapons tests and it was due to lack of practice and training.. All soldiers wher trained to a basic standard as infantry men, but IMHO and its been said before, if you are only training to a basic standard then you aint training enough. All the facilities where there, what was lacking was man power, time and bullets.. I even went as far as buying my own 223 ammo to give a couple of mechanics who realy where in need of extra weapons training the chance to get a couple hundred extra rounds down range, and whenever possible i wouldorganise the range and get a bunch of interested blokes together and we would have a real fun sports afternoon on a wednesday shooting .

When i was with 3 Bn The Royal Anglian Regt, we ( 12 blokes i think it was) in the shooting team managed to use up the whole of the allocated training ammunition for the whole of 19 Inf Brigade. We where firing between 500 adn 1000 rounds per day per man, sometimes more, depending on which particular match we where practicing.. the worst shot of the day bought the ice crams on the way back to camp. The Shooting teams weapons where repaired by me personaly (and nicely adjusted for peak accuracy and performance) in my own time, be it weekend or evenings.

Well.. i would say that in general the Brit Army is well trained.. the over bearing problem through the 10 years i was in the green machine was lack of training ammo and range time and Officers and Senior NCO'S who didn't know how to say No Sir my guys need, training, ammo, and time off.. and otherOfficers who would micro manage every damn thing and try to further their carreres on the backs, blood and sweat of the men in thier command.

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 19:51:29 (ZULU)


Bearman,

I just dropped you a mail via SC email.  Regarding John's (Acehigh's) number.

Acehigh,

if you're reading this, give me a call.  I'm getting hungry and I'm not sure how long to wait for Mojo's...

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 21:29:14 (ZULU)


Wes,

  Thank God, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. I struggled with PTSD from my all expenses paid vacation in SEA all my adult life. I lost many jobs, two wives (and families), my self respect, but I never lost my love for this country or my honor. They can take away everything else, but they can't take my honor. Only I can do that.

  There in lies the problem. The liberals will sell their honor, as you said, for a bigger piece of the pie..., without regard to the furture consequences. I've often said that I've lost more of my freedoms to liberal ideals than I ever lost to Hitler or Tojo or Hussein, Castro or the whole Communist movement.

  In the late '70's, I spoke at length to a young man selling, that is SELLING, not giving away, communist news papers on Main Street in the town where I was a Police officer. I wasn't there to condemn him for his beliefs, it is his right. But what I tried to make him understand was that IF there ever was a Communist take over in this country, he wouldn't survive it. Not because of the possible fighting, but because the incoming government would take him out and shoot him as not being trustworthy. They would figure that if he would turn on his own country, why would he not do the same to the new government when he finally "woke up" to how wrong he had been.

  The liberals who are pushing this new agenda have no idea what will happen if or when this all came about. For the Bible readers in the group, read Revelations again. For the rest, remember the old saying:  "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Who ever is in charge of the "New World Order" will find it very difficult to overcome the temptation to exert his new-found power. Mankind doesn't have a good track record regarding regimes with absolute power.

  My Father didn't serve 31 years in the military, nor did any of us put our lives on the line so that some delusional ex-hippie in rose colored glasses could hand our great nation over to some unrealistic, utopian peace plan. We live in the real world and our leaders should do the same. Most of the countries that are a part of this movement are jealous of us because we have so much, and have as big a say in the way our government works (or I thought we did). They will treat us ugly and tear down everything our founding fathers designed for us. We will be called "kooks" and other worse names but we need to start talking (in a reasonable and logical way) to others about what we see, those of us who live in the real world.

  We did it over 200 years ago and we can do it again. Working with other organizations (chose them well) we've been making a small difference already. We got Whoopie Goldberg canned. We got the Dixie Chicks to change their tune. We got Howard Stern off the air. We now have Fox News giving us the other side of the story, and people are beginning to listen. We can make a difference if we do it in the right way. Like a piramid scheme, if each of us can change the minds of two people, and they change two people, and they change two.... It's corny but it works. It has in the past, the liberals have been making it work for two or three dacades now, and the "boomers" are all getting to that age were they (or we) don't fall so easily for grandious world peace plans. We've been around long enough to know that they don't work..., we've seen it not work. The Marshall Plan was supposed to bring peace and security to the world. And even the UN was supposed to make the world a more peaceful place to live. You see how well all that worked.

  Even the current Presidential Campaign is showing the people what they have feared since we heard of Orwell and "Big Brother". The liberals want everyone to believe that it's the conservatives that are "watching over us". It isn't. It's the New World Order crowd that wants to transform us all into "sheeple" fit for the slaughter.

  You're right Wes, I didn't used to cry when I heard the National Anthem. Just "taps". But now, seeing what you see, I get misty-eyed when I think of all the men and women whose blood has bought us what those who have probably never served are trying to take away.

 

  Sorry, I guess I got carried away.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 23:31:14 (ZULU)


Will agree to the idea that the problem with lack of training has to do with NCO's, but it ain't the guys in the line units.  It mainly is the senior SNCO's at the S-shops at Bn that cause the problems.  The line grunts can't argue very effectively with the senior commodity section guys and the O's get sandbagged for a while unless they really push an issue.  This is where the sniper platoon's get hammered as we usually have the very junior O's.

There is never enough ammo, and there is never enough time when the higher mandated bullshit is done.  We blow off the mandated bullshit, as much as we dare, but now the threats for noncompletion of stupid shit are serious.  Gotta run, mandated meeting to attend.  It's death by meetings.  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 23:59:40 (ZULU)


Jim:  Your post is right; however--the myriad of tasks is so absurd that a smart fella can blow off much of it.  I did my thing on a risk analysis.  "Can I get away with NOT doing this or that to focus on something else..."  That was always in play.  Of course, with ten years under my belt as a second louie--I had an unfair advantage on how to play that game.  Heheh.  Someone smarter than I needs to scrub the regs and add up all the "no-fail tasks" and kinda limit them to maybe a 28 hour days' worth....ya know: cut about 75%!  Jim, ya hit on another good point too.  The training dictated from on high:  The focus should be to build the squads and platoons.  Let the older CPTs, LTCs and COLs figure out how to put it all together.  If these guys need as much training as they currently suck up---then we's in da shithouse.

Bomac:  I learned from guys like your CO:  Perez (read about him in Stiner's book), Durant, Curry--these were all guys that led like your CPT.  I also had a whole shitload of "how NOT to lead" presented to me.  Now. except for the occassional mustang, we promote too fast and have very little experience at the CPT level.  Some less than cock-sure BCs will micro manage everything.  It is one thing to teach---altogether different from pulling strings.  But it takes big balls to let a LT or CPT learn from mistakes anymore.  And, with the speed of promotion, few get to see it first hand.  

In a perfect world--a commission would cost ya 2 years' wearing E4 and below in your expected branch.  Followed by a board recommendation before the scholarship is given.  West Pointers too.

Bravo:  First, second and third....thing I'd do.  Heck, tis so much fun---still doin' it too.  BTW--Sinister is lurkin' near as I can tell.

Robert:  Gawd!  Another wasted cup of coffee!  If that was true--I'da payed to hear it aired.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 22, 2004, at 00:14:12 (ZULU)


Ref: Road Marches

I've been training pretty intensely for this Storm Mountain gig.  I figure Rod tossed in the Road March to up the ante just a smidge.  I'm in.  Vasoline on the feet makes a world of difference.  It reduces the friction that causes blisters.  I've broken in my Danner Desert Acadias and I'm using an ALICE large with frame that was modified by Tactical Tailor.  It has the fat straps and kidney belt.  This makes a huge difference.

My physical training routine will be interupted for the first part of September when I attend an Advanced Sniper/Instructor course in Vermont.  That will leave me about a week and a half to tune up before Storm........we'll see....we do this for fun?

Kevin R. Mussack Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, August 22, 2004, at 13:00:11 (ZULU)


Wes, couldn't agree more with everything you said!

Yes, the opening of the DemoParty was an abomination.  Can't wait to see what the Repubs do to "one up" it!

Don't look at your height as a discriminatory thing.  Not many of us can look Bravo straight in the eyes for a talk-to!  It's all good! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Sunday, August 22, 2004, at 14:50:26 (ZULU)


TEST!!!

DBCooper Email this member See this member's profile
US of A - Sunday, August 22, 2004, at 20:52:37 (ZULU)


Wes,

I become incredibly angry when I read a post such as yours for a couple reasons, the lesser of the two being that you're living in Orygun and I'm not, but primarily is that you've spoken golden truth in an eloquent and subdued manner.

My real frustration in knowing that you are quite correct, that the system is non-repairable from within, that the only solution is going to be multiple crosshairs on target and that will never ever happen.

Get used to the rabid spread of socialism, just as you've identified it.  

Mike in Texas Email this member See this member's profile
Granbury, TEXAS, - Sunday, August 22, 2004, at 21:39:23 (ZULU)


Joe - Agree with you on the training being for all troops.  there seems to be the mentality that "I'm a truck driver and don't need this crap".  Then the ca ca hits the fan and whammer, "wish we had trained more."  Scenerio driven training is a must and live fire with tracer tell the troop better then anything else how bad he is shooting under stress.  I would use tracer for fire and manuver phase as well as other training that it was condusive to and ranges that would accept the tracer fire.  It let the guys know how many spray and pray misses there were in a mag.  :)

On the STRAC allocations (160), that is the minimum allocation for training and qual.  Too many take that as the only amount that they can order. That is not so, the unit may order what ever they need as long as their training schedule and op tempo permits it.

JimT - I always liked them as they took the fire as a big a**ed target while we sneaked around on foot.  :)

Bolt - Will pass on the message with my next email, I owe him one and am behind due to being one lazy GS worker.  He is working real hard on making this the best program possible and he is doing it as far as I am concerned.  The Sako is being looked at as a possible 338 Lapua weapon.  ON the flash versus break, I would use neither but go flash over break as the break creats one heck of a signature, as Undude.  :)

Wes - Yes, a good first step would be to kick the UN out of the US and send it to Paris.  Let them deal with the problems of punk diplomats and a**holes.  Then the US can veto everything that comes down form France Germany and the rest of the Liberal Euro pols.  We do not need to abrogate our soverinty to the UN and that is exactly what Kerry wants to do.  If he gets elected it will be worse then Clinton and Carter combined.  Kerry keeps his ads talking of his awards and shows no shame in his lies, that is because he has no honor.

Anyone going to the sniper confrence at Fitchburg MA on the 25 and 26th of Sep.  I kow it conflicts with Storm Mountain but wondering.  Appears that I will be there to see what happens.  Believe that Sain will be there as well.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 22, 2004, at 23:06:41 (ZULU)


Great day at work today.  Spent 8+ hours on the range today working on rifle shooting with the tac team.  I got back from a two day class on Thursday to find a message that I needed to put together the range day for today.  We shot a lot of ammo, worked on a broad variety of skills, and got fried on a beautiful day.  At the end of the day I got out my toy (Winnie Stealth) and after I ran a team sniper through his qual course, we shot steel plates at 300 yards until we ran out of ammo.

Even bigger bonus...it was my day off.  Let's see...do I want OT or comp time?  What a dilemna.

Tomorrow I'll take the kids to the lake.

Jim

Jim T Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, USA - Monday, August 23, 2004, at 03:30:07 (ZULU)


Wes,

Well spoken, as usual.....

In the current NEW America, you, and ALL on this site are the ENEMY.

Hell of a thought, but, WE do not think properly, (Newspeak you know Orwell 1984).

Rockefeller set the U.N. up in idea, in 1949, actually it came into being then.

His approach, and logic was, if folks( Nations) are DEPENDENT on one another, then there is no reason to go to War.( Trade).

There is nothing new under the sun.....the Tower Of Bable,, to the Leauge of Nations, to the U.N.....same agenda's.

Same horse, different riders......

Just shows how close we are to the end of the road......

Like Mike said, and there's nada we can do about it...to change the outcome.

BUT, we can SLOW the train...and that is our task in the few short years we have on this ball.

You are doing your part, as am I.....and I know the hearts and feelings of the rest of our motley crew are doing the same & more.......

Same/Same.

We are going to have some very tough decisions coming in the near future, IF what you predict comes to pass.....time to think about WHAT you are going to do now....not then.

Best To all HAWGS.

Dos Zap

Two Shoes Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 23, 2004, at 05:08:29 (ZULU)


Nice Job Wes!!

Well since were on the rag about training and the lack of it I noticed th system seemed to run like I was dealing with "Government Employees" and not "Military Leaders".  We were told at our base that Engineers could not use live demolitions due to "range safety" and "too much risk" while every night I could watch pictures on the wall vibrate and roll to a cant due to the artillery.  The system has become corrupt with slackers trying to get their 20 years and when you get slackers promoting slackers then the system will focus on "dental visists, AIDs Prevention, Domestic Violence, Speeding on Base ect."

I had the BN commander kick back my officer review of one NCO and told me to rewrite it since this guy had 16 years in and needed his retirement even though he should never have made it past 4 years in the Army.  A peacetime Army becomes just a "social welfare program" where it is hard to focus on the basics.  Officers and NCO's are in the get along mode and it will not change.  You must have people whom value "true leadership" to promote it instead of what is currently promoted as becomming a "social worker in cammo".

All of the threads about the UN and politicians are correct and to the point.  Since their are many LE types in this group, the time will come when you will be asked by the "social engineers" to pick up your hammer and drive the final nail against your countrymen.  I know all of you will honor the "oath" we all took, turn around, and drive that nail through their skull.  I am personnaly thankful to have you on the "inside" of the system trying to keep all of our 6's a little less "hot".

We also recently gave a Marine Unit being deployed the free use of our range and ammunition to qualify with since they could not get either(SNAFU!!!!!!).  I was glad to see they did not have to deploy with "personal weapons" as I thought maybe the Pentagon had opted for another "flying money pit" at the loss of "grunt gear".

Mule

Mule Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 23, 2004, at 14:57:48 (ZULU)


I on the other hand think that needing a .270 Winchester is prefectly good reason for having to buy another rifle.  I bought rifles for less valid reasons.

Jerry Email this member See this member's profile
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, August 23, 2004, at 17:03:37 (ZULU)


Hello everyone. New to board. Been in Kosovo.

Kevin Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Monday, August 23, 2004, at 20:17:40 (ZULU)



I'll try to keep this as brief and a-political as I can considering the content!

Ok, Ok, I need some answers to questions that are really bothering me, and this crowd seems to be comprised of some that can enlighten me!

Here goes.

                     Rules of engagement

Who writes up this stuff? When I was humping a Garand "eternally uphill" and you received incoming, the origin of that fire automatically became a freefire zone and got squashed, or at least you tried!

We have some of this nations "finest" in country bustin their ass to complete a mission ( doing this nation proud) wearing handcuffs. Yet the bad guys have no restrictions. I gotta know, Is it just me or do I see the beginning of another SEA in the making? I mean you can't  answer incomming from this or that building, you can't blow that spider hole, and oh good grief no don't cap that guy, he is wearing a black turban, ( doesn't matter that he and his cohorts just emptied an AK in your direction)! Political correctness is going to get us some dings I fear!

Now some of you fellers were, and still are OFFICERS and NCO's, so tell me, how in bloody hell do you win three PURPLE HEARTS, a SILVER STAR and a BRONZE STAR in only 4 monthes and 12 days, keeping in mind that one of those monthes was Swift Boat training? That must have been one hell of a firefight. Hal Moor's 87th ( I think it was ) on some little podunk hill didn't get those kind of commendations, and should have! I mean cut me some slack, Audie Murphy wasn't that good! How come you never hear from the REAL HEROS? Because most of them say "they were just doing their job" and BESAUSE UNFORTUNATLY A VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF THEM ARE BURIED ON FORIGN SOIL, ARLINGTON AND MANY UNKNOWN PLACES SCATTERED ALL OVER THIS GLOBE. THEIR MEDALS, are a pissy little piece of granit. That high percentage, are in part, the ones that BOUGHT, and paid an exorbinate price, for our freedom!

As Steve Erwin the crock hunter would say " Danger Danger"!

Now what, or where is a source of information for a beginner to learn how to dial in correction for wind. I know, practice practice but there has to be something that can get you started. I have gotten fair at estimating velocity ( checking my guess ) with my Kestrel. But have no idea on how many cranks to dial in. I may have missed it but I didn't see anything in the archives. I mean 25 rnds. to tag a prarie(sp) dog at 627Y (by LRF)in the Texas panhandle, come on!

Vern

Vernon Email this member See this member's profile
Houston, TX, USA - Monday, August 23, 2004, at 21:23:24 (ZULU)


Kevin, sounds like you have really worked out since your med problems a couple of years ago.  Good for you.

Bravo, I will be there. This year I plan on being there for most of it, so lets hook up.  As to keeping up with me, I just spent three days walking around Disneyland, with three kids, from 0800-2330 or so and man if I ever want to get ready for another trip to a bad place, thats how I will work out.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
Ca, - Monday, August 23, 2004, at 21:39:41 (ZULU)


War is war and police work is police work.

When you try and run your war like a police job, you usually bite the big weenie.

Conversely ... if you try and run your police department like the military, you usually bite the big weenie.

That said ... when someone is shooting at you ... you do what you have to do to come home.

Seen more than a few shot with AKs and SKSs right here at home.

Bad guys don't have to play by the rules but ... we do. Fact of life.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 23, 2004, at 23:08:14 (ZULU)


Mule you said - <<"Well since were on the rag about training and the lack of it I noticed th system seemed to run like I was dealing with "Government Employees" and not "Military Leaders".>>  Careful, I'm a GS-11 gomnent worker.

You also stated - <<I had the BN commander kick back my officer review of one NCO and told me to rewrite it since this guy had 16 years in and needed his retirement even though he should never have made it past 4 years in the Army.>> You should have recognized that as an illegal order and ignored it.  I did that a number of times while an active NCO and replyed that I wasn't ruining his carreer, he already did that for himself.  He may place whatever cover or review that he wishes but he may not change your's.

Vernon - That BS Nation Building and Peacekeeping crap is what changed the Army into the ROEs from hell.  A soldier shoots as needed to defend self, buddies, civies, etc.  Not to think out the process and then call higher to ask permission.  If necessary shoot to hell wiht worring about possible World Court Indictments and whether some Flag Grade is going to get upset with you, courts martial you and then back Kerry.  As far as the wounds, awards go try this web site, it may help. http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/ It is a group of Viet Nam SF vets against Kerry.  Good read, but have a time when you can sit and go through all the material.

Brian - Yes you do have to play by rules as an LEO, the soldiers' rule should be to kill any sucker that shoots at you.  That means if this building is being used as a bunker then give it a bunker buster.  If this vehicle is being used to run guns and militia then flatten the vehicle.  Hell they still talk about the wedding party kills on the border with Syria when the news weinies were shown that the buildings had storage for weapons and that the dead did not equate to a wedding party.  But who in the newsies arena gives a crap about the truth, press home how indiscrimate the bombing and shooting is so that the ROEs become tighter.

Sorry Preaching when I shouldn't be doing that stuff.  Shutting up now.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 00:41:53 (ZULU)



Warren County Rifle Club held its August Long Range match Sunday the 22nd at 3PM CST. The conditions were actually mild for August, but at 89*F and 80% humidity, it made being in a shooting jacket less then fun. The sky’s were mostly sunny, with conditions changing from a mild and shifting 5mps wind for the first relay, to almost dead calm for the final relay.

We had a total of 22 shooters come out, and again we had several spectators. At least one of which (who will remain nameless) has several rifles capable of shooting the long-range course. I don’t see how shooters can come and watch and not want to get behind a rifle, but they are welcome none the less.

AEDC’s record high score of 200-16X was tied twice Sunday. This was Chip Money's 2nd tie of the record, and Howard Pitts also used his 6BR to put up a 200-16X score. Howard was creedemored to 2nd. That makes 3 shooters tied for the high score, which Gene Graham set with his re-worked Savage rifle. Gene used a 6.5x284 short throat (JW Huskeys reamer design) which Howard Pitts built, to set the record but each tie has been shot with a 6BR.

We had our 2nd Service rifle shooter of the year come out to try. Ken Miholits shot his M1 Garand at 1000, and did well considering his bullets were "a bit" less than sonic as they arrived at the target. In addition to Ken, we had three other shooters new to our range. Bob Wheat, winner of the F T/R class, Don Smith and Troy Lee all came out to try and beat the AEDC wind. Bob and Ken both won free matches!!

I’d like to thank all the shooters for coming out and making this a successful match. Twenty-Two shooter for a club match is outstanding! Next month WCRC will host two long-range matches. The first will be held Sept 12 and the second Sept 19th. Registration for both will begin at 2PM at the pavilion, with firing beginning at 3PM CST. Stay tuned for information on any additional days, which may be added, or possible practice days in the future. It’s my hope that I will see all of you on the line again, but until then, keep them in the X ring.

Chris Hayes

Name Class. Score Class Caliber

NRA Prone

Hayes, Christopher T. HM 198-9 Any/Any 6.5x284

McNabb, Curtis D. HM 197-8 Any/Any 6.5x284

Miholita, Ken EX 142-2 S.R. 30-06

Kunz, Clyde MA 131-1 Any/Iron 308Win

F Class - Open

Money, Paul 200-16 Open 6BR

Pitts, Howard 200-16 Open 6BR

Lee, Troy 200-12 Open 6.5x284

Graham, Gene T. 200-12 Open 6.5x284

Nail, Clyde J. 198-7 Open 6.5x284

Luttrell, Tommy 197-12 Open 300WM

Hayes, Elen 192-2 Open 6BR

Pickett, Ralph 188-6 Open 25-06

Robinson, Joe 166-8 Open 6BR

Duncan, Dennis DNF Open 300WM

Wood, James DNF Open 300Ultra

F T/R

Wheat, Bob 198-7 F T/R 308Win

Boyd, Campbell 189-6 F T/R 308Win

Mathes, Hank 188-4 F T/R 308Win

Smith, Don 182-3 F T/R 308Win

Hobbs, Tommy 173-3 F T/R 308Win

Kubic, Matt DNF F T/R 308Win

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 01:55:18 (ZULU)


Hi,Storm Mountian Training Center(SMTC)is having a fall team sniper match Sept 25&26.I have a team slot but my partner fell thru so I am looking for a partner. Big fun and always leanrn alot with great prize table with prizes pulled from hat. Match fee is $100.00 or I will cover it for law enforcement or military. Rod Ryan promises to be on his best behavior. Charlie

Charlie Mitzelfeld Email this member See this member's profile
Ann Arbor,, MI, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 01:56:09 (ZULU)


Hi Kosovo Kevin,

Welcome aboard.  Pull up a barstool and relax.  Hope you enjoy the site as much as the rest of us do.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 02:14:48 (ZULU)


Patron Mike, good to hear you're doing that well! I did the same thing a few weeks back, SeaWorld, the Alamo (so Bubba could see some of his heiratage!) and Fiesta Texas. It's almost funny the way those kiddoes tend to run until they run themselves completely out. Sounds like Duman is going to want a replay of last year, which fits really well with me. That guys top drawer. The only hard part will be getting in again LOL!

It's sad when you have problems finding a proper pair of Noconas in San Antone.

Master Rick, weren't the Boltster, t'was me! I should have been more specific on the comp / flash hider subject as well. Ever since I was regailed with the tale of the sudden nudist rosebush, I said that brakes weren't kosher on a stick designed for the single shot war. Not that I've got rosebushes, or for that matter much in the way of vegitation besides sage out here, but still. Makes perfect sense. The stick that I was addressing with this is the M4 / CAR type. The kind that has the inside 200M kind of usage, and specifically the inside 10M purpose. I believe I remember Patron Sinister making some comment about after the first round or so, the badguys know where you're at anyway. You know me, I'm married to the antique Houah, so anything beyond pistol distance is going to be receiving incoming from a 7.62 NATO anyway. Still, like Clint Smith preaches, there seems to be something about using a light / short carbine at pistol distances that makes sense. I also see quite some intelligence in his philosophy on movement. I just suck shooting on a full run, but you know..... Now having asked the question a touch more in depth, does that change anything? Thanks for the say-so to Blaine. He's good people.

Sir Wes, you better cut that stuff out, you'll start being referred to as "Revrund". Then you and wise-acre Moe can duke it out ;-) I can't agree more with what you, and specifically Republic Mike (good to see you around these parts again partner!) and Bro Two Shoes had to say on the topic. Every day, more and more, I wake up wondering what happened to MY country. What happened to the rule of law, what happened to freedom, what happened to all of it. The bad part is that I've found out first hand that all the crapola they taught us in civics was all a lie. Propaganda. One, big, stinking, lousy intricate lie. Innocent until proven guilty? Yeah, whatever. What country was that again? Consti-what? The good part is that now I'm actually kind of free, after coming to terms with the phenominally monumental disappointment and disbelief. Kind of like figuring out that someone you love just won't be coming home ever again. This country doesn't hold anything for me any more. The kind of folks that have taken over our government, well, I have little use for them. There's some great folks here, folks I consider friends, and that's saying lots 'cause I'm way too picky about who I call a friend, like I should be. They, like myself, aren't in any form of control, and their opinions don't matter any more than mine do. On one hand, I feel Republic Mike is completely right. I just hope in the other aspect, he's completely wrong.

D.B. Cooper? D.B. COOPER?!?! HA! DOUBLE HA! Anyone with that kind of sense of humor must be OK! Welcome D.B., now loan me some dough!

Majuh Santa, Good to know you've got your sense of humor too. Remember, it IS possible to get the bacon cheese burger, beer, and wife all in the shower at the same time ;-) Well, I never tried it with a wife, never had one that was suitable to the application, but I'm assuming that the technique is the same ;-) Kimber? Not even on my top 10.

Revrund Moe, good to know you got your cans finally! Now cut out the short jokes ;-) Remember, dynamite comes in small packages too! HA! DOUBLE HA!

Indiansinger, you got it. You got it.

And finally, the 270. OK Revrund Jim, but promise not to take any offense since none is meant. That goes for you too Sir Wes! Well, first off, the 270 operates at a slightly higher pressure. Not enough to make that much of a difference at all in an apples to apples scenario, but we're not comparing apples to apples. The smaller diameter means that slower powders work better (in normally barrelled sticks, so you're out Patron Yote Bait!). Hence the extra 10% or so capacity makes the difference. Comparing the 270 to the 308 would be similar to comparing the 264X284 (since the 284 is basically a 30-06 capacity) or the 280 (or if you prefer, the 284X284!) to the 308. Now, if you wanted to compare the 270 and the 30-06, that would be closer to apples-apples. What do we have here? Well, lower recoil (and I for one appreciate that!), and a flatter shooting round keeping things like. As I said before, I might be channelling the spirit of Jack O'Connor, but the 270 is good enough for anything I'll hunt on this continent, and more than I can afford to hunt in Africa. Is the 270 a good long-range round? Nope. 308 beats it all over. Bullet selection stinks. But then again, wasn't it decided that the 260 was better than the 308 in everything but barrel life? Well, it's my statement that the 270 is just a slightly higher capacity 260, with a slightly larger bullet ;-) Still over capacity though, although with a hunting rig, who shoots the barrels out?

Best of luck you fellows, may we all be nominated to the order of the raven.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 04:36:48 (ZULU)


Moe, Wes: Got a buddy from the "other site" that sent me pics today. Other than the fact he went with the M2A instead of the M3A, it appears that Geoff has done his typical work. Initial reports are 1/2 MOA at least. The club is expanding. Better news yet, it appears that the Order of the '14 is greater in number than I thought. It seems that folks anticipating midnight on the 13th have purchased all standing inventory from DPMS, of their flash hider with bayo lug. To the tune of 38K of them. Lots of faith, and a little hope.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 05:14:51 (ZULU)


Vern:

Once you get adept at reading the wind out to your target (I'll let you know if I ever do!) you can use this formula...

Range(100's yds) x Velocity (mph)

   ---------------------

          constant

Constants (168 BTHP) are 100-200     13

                        300-400     12

                        500-600     11

                        700-900     10

                          1000      9

If yer using 175's, the constants are:

                        100-500     15

                        600         14

                        700-800     13

                        900         12

                        1000        11

Example:  Target is 950 yds away, and wind is 15 mph.  

If you're using 168's, you'd dial in 14.25 min

if using 175's, 11.8 or 12

As for rules of engagement.....just elope.  Someone shoots at me, I don't care if he's wearing a do-rag, black turban, three piece suit or a cigar ring on his dick, I shoot him.  Most ROE's are based on some officer's/supervisor's desire to stay out of trouble, not law.  I say screw 'em, let 'em try to hang you for doing something legal.  At least you'll be answering the charge in court, not in front of St. Peter.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 13:33:48 (ZULU)



Been in the great mountains a few days. John Denver didn't call em Rocky Mountain High for nothing. $8.00 hamburgers and $3.00 cokes not to mention the price of a cracker box room made out of discarded plywood at $79.00 a day. But the mountains still fill up my senses so still I go there.  I see you've all become enlightened since I been gone and that's a good thing Martha even if a careless moment sent you "up" for a while.

Wes; I do think you may it figured about right.

And my Gosh, the .270 is on the line for discussion. My my.

Ya'll think Jack might have known something about what he spoke? Something about something that works makes it unpopular if it's too common. Guess that be what went with the old 30-30 and the 30-06 but let some uniform carry something new and it's world famous all of sudden.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 14:03:07 (ZULU)


Ref: SMTC Match

Charlie, we'll see you there.  Have you been doing your prep work (Road Marches)?  This morning's Yomp was 6-miles @3.43 mph w/50#.  I'm ready.  In ten days I report for a seven day Advanced Sniper/Instructor school so that should tune up my shooting and technical stuff.  I'm still trying to decide whether to field my AR-10 or the M40A1.  The tower event makes me lean toward the AR-10.  I plan to be at SMTC on the 24th to gather some data.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 14:16:33 (ZULU)


Gents,

Getting ready for work, but wanted to let Bravo and all know the .270 Winch really sucks!

The worst meat damage I've ever seen was with a .270 and 130 grainers. It's in a "funny" caliber.  The .280 Rem and .280 Ackley Imp are better and finally, the .284 Winch out of a properly throated rifle with longer length mag will come damn close to it.

Much to do about nothing. Yeah, Jack O'connor used it, but he used a 7X57, too.

Actually, just trying to get a rise out of Bravo. this should do it...;-)

Am working on a world sitrep (as I see it) and where I think this is all going. Probably done in a few days. Sincerely hope I'm wrong...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 19:05:25 (ZULU)


Wes…Now don’t go badmouthing a 7X57 :-).  I have killed a lot of game with the 7X57 both here and in Africa.  Course I hand load and use a modern rifle.  Most of the animals fall as thought someone pulled the rug out from under them.  By the way the 7X57 replaced my .270 Winchester.  

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 19:19:07 (ZULU)


Looks like I still can't spell.

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 19:21:20 (ZULU)



Kosovo Kev,

Welcome to the site, Oklahoma is a Snipercountry friendly zone ; )

What part of MY state are ya from?

'Yote bait you must have been in Summit county CO,

I much prefer New Mexico now adays.

I think the poli'rats throw a war every generation, for a distraction, to keep the Hero's from cleaning house at home.

What if they threw a war and nobody came?

4i's Email this member See this member's profile
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 19:21:46 (ZULU)


Rick:  True statement on the STRAC.  Here is the result though:  BDE gets a pot of money.  OPFUNDing for maintenance, training, OPTs, fenced funds (JRTC etc), Daily use BS (paper, toner), UFRs, and the list goes on and on.  When the allocations go into these various pots---the MINIMUM ammo requirement is met, then apportions go elsewhere.  There is never enough left to revisit ammo.  Instead of this--we should either mandate a larger ammo requirement (this would also drive training time) or "fence" a ;arger portion for ammo (ammo only funding).  Either way---we would necessarily have to spend it on ammo and then spend time shooting it.  In fact, mandate those scenarios that you mentioned in STRAC--and think quarterly, not annual or semi!  It will take a strong, centralized emphasis to break the pardigm here.

Hello Kevin: Welcome home!

ROE:  Written by lawyers.  And how!  Commanders sign them, but lawyers vet them and add all kinds of crazy CYA BS.  Ya shoulda seen the Sadr ammendment when CENTCOM decided we would let that be an Iraqi problem a couple months back.  Now there was some BS in print!  We could zap his LTs all day long, unless they were hangin' with their principal.  Jeez.  Naturally, we also discovered some loopholes big enough for a truckload of Marines to drive through...I also bet they changed it again lately.  It all chaffes my ass worse n' a lowridin' large alice without a kidney pad...

Hey Kevin:  Tried everything with my desert MOLLE and decided my modified large alice is still the preferred choice.  Can't beat those dang things.  Also, my Arcadias are fast becoming my absolute favorite footwear item in the kit.  FWIW, the POI in the instructor course would be better suited to a bolt gun, wouldn't you think?  Glad your putting the good stuff to use after all you went through in Asia.  Man, you are the man!

On Kerry:  Would you send your son or daughter off to war under his leadership knowing he wouldn't stay the course?  Anyone who honestly takes on that question and still votes for him is looped in the head!

BKS:  That is precisely why I always had tremendous respect for you LEO types.  My job (ROE be damned) is usually straight forward; yours is a big complicated mess that requires very fast thinking to stay alive at the damnedest times.  Yours is the tougher job by far.  And that you still find time to do an amazing thing for the troops raises you to near saint status.  Hmmm.  Brian IN-Sain(t)....nice ring to it...

Bravo:  She drew a line in the sand at the Hardees drivethru....never thought about the cheeseburger shower thing....another hmmmm.

CAR Barrel is tight....heheh.  It also started grouping alot better.  Here I thought the ARMS gooseneck for the aimpoint was at fault!  Nada, it was a loose barrel all along.  Started building an M4 upper.  Gotta have all my war-toys in the safe.  

Fitchburg MA?  Now there's memories in that town.  Hell, Blake was born there.  Almost got booted outta group over a little "altercation" in one of the local establishments (sling-a-whore)---but smartly confessed my sins to the team daddy and saved myself.  Heheh.  But a Sniper Conference?  Now there is a strange choice...

Back to range clearing.  Shelves are built and the new fence is cleared and up.  BTW--don't test electric fences with your left ear with right hand in dew-soaked grass!  

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 19:27:15 (ZULU)


4i's; thata nuther one in the 10 ring. The last time I had seen Breckenridge and Dillion was about 1969. The guy was beggin me to build him a TV cable system off top of one of those mountains they ski on now. It was September and he had fired a contractor for some very minor violation of ethics regarding some pine trees that were getting in the way. He wanted me to tell him I'd "getterdone" by Jan 30th. Use your imagination as to what I told him. Panama was beckoning to me at the time and it was a whole lot warmer. You can imagine my reaction when I saw that valley this time. God musta been a little out of it when he laid that basin in there. Didn't he know what those California yuppies were gonna do to good huntin country.  "Paved paradise and put up a parkin lot!" sure applies to that one. Still beautiful country if you ignore the ski lanes and lifts and don't let your eyes wander down to the power lines.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 21:17:21 (ZULU)


And I think if you look deep enough most of Jack O'Connors exploits in Africa involved the 7X57 more than the .270 Winchester. However the .270 is not the worst cartridge every to come along anyway... There was no .280 if I remember right and no 7mm-08 either at the time. As to the .284 I think it might have been around somewhere or I've slipped another brain cell somewhere. Ah those were the days! There were Big Horns in the mountains and desert Rams in Nevada not to mention some Griz in Colorado over round Durango or Teluride......After a little stroll at 12000 feet I remember why I can only remember these days but they're comin back, even the wolves. Go and do it young men for the day will come!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 21:25:51 (ZULU)


"Better news yet, it appears that the Order of the '14 is greater in number than I thought. It seems that folks anticipating midnight on the 13th have purchased all standing inventory from DPMS, of their flash hider with bayo lug. To the tune of 38K of them."

Well, Bravo, keep your eyes and ears peeled for news of the impending rash of drive-by bayonetings that will surely follow on the heels of the AW ban's demise!

Them '14s with stickers on them are gonna be all the rave for those of us with CCW...................

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Tuesday, August 24, 2004, at 23:17:29 (ZULU)


FITCHBURG, MASS: I think it was the range facilities that got it the nod there.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 02:28:35 (ZULU)


Bravo - Sorry, talk about a typo, I was sure I had typed your name and somehow it came out Bolt.  Oh well, old age I guess.  On the choice, I would go with the break as if it is dark, you will go white light anyway and, as stated, the BGs will know you are there within the first two shots.  I want those on target with a rapid recovery to continue dealing.  My thoughts on that one. :)

Charles Hunt - I would go with a constant of 10 as it is easier to compute in your head rapidly.  You will find that, that constant will keep you within about .5 moa at closer ranges, 200 meters, and about the same at 900 meters.  That .5 moa is less then the wind error reading error of 1 mph and you can do it faster in your head.

For you guys that wonder where the heck these constants come from: use the wind formula of wind speed (W) times Range in hundereds (R) -- divided by the constant, in this case 10, = moa.  Now use a ballistic program and find the moa shift for a 10 mph wind.  Since you know the moa then you change the formula to W x R divided by moa and you get the constant for that yard line.  Run all of the yard lines, (or meter lines in my case) and you find a constant for that round at each range.  Figure the middle constant, about 600 to 700 will usually do it, and check to see how far out you are at each range.  If it is not more then .5 moa then that is a good quick wind constant, and you can use the full range of constants on the range with your calculator if you are shooting for precision and not just knocking his dick in the dirt.  Also look to see what the constant is in relationship to 10, again an easier number to remember and do math in your head with when stressed.  The 300 Win Mag shooting 190 gr at 2900 fps will use a constant of about 15, but use 10 and then take 1/3 off and you have your wind call.  If using the 7mm Mag with 168 gr and 3000 fps use a constant 20 or use 10 and have that equal .5 moa instead of full moa.  See, simple huh?  :)

Joe - One of the problems is that the Training NCOs are not doing their job.  The ammo is forcast out 5 years.  If they do their job then allocation is made, and then confirmed every year up to that budget year, the BDE then has to justify why they forcast 50,000 but only want 1000. Command then has to realize that the big desks will have to wait another year or two, or wait for end of year funds where it should have been purchased in the first place.  We have been forcing that issue within some of our units and it seems to be working.  Unbelieveable how once forcast, you had better be deployed if you don't use it. :)

Fitchburg has been the site for the North East Sniper Conference for a couple of years now due to the ranges on Old Devens South Post.

Moe - Have you not seen the last minute push to shame the pols into declaring the assualt rifle as once again the weapon of choice.  They are predicting a rash of killings due to this horrible lack of push on the part of The Pres to get the ban extrended.  I LOVE IT!!!

Brian - I believe you are right, glad I refreshed and saw your post.  :)

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 02:58:51 (ZULU)


Charles

Tried to e-mail you to say thanks for the information but it bounced, SO THANK YOU!

Vern

Vernon Email this member See this member's profile
Houston, TX, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 03:35:37 (ZULU)


Rick B.

Thanks. I'll try that one to. Heck I'll try anything that works. If it don't I'll try it any way!

Vern

Vernon Email this member See this member's profile
Houston, TX, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 03:49:34 (ZULU)


Quick check in, I'm Bn OOD tonight.  So let's hope nobody goes stupid at Horno.  

Just got my A3's in, heavy as shit but all have proper Simrad brackets, and they're BFN.  The guys we're replacing have been doing God's work at night.  Whacked at least two MF's a few nights ago in fact.  I have the choice between PVS-10's and KN203's, how's that for rough decisions:)  Rick, any scoop on difference's between Ver 1 and Ver 2 PVS-10's?  I've got both types coming.

Forecasting ammo, shit, everytime I asked the S3 and S4 about ammo forecasting I got looked at like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.  Oh well, we worked around it, usually.

I like my 270Win, 1st CF rifle was a 270.  Lots of fun, good power, moderate recoil.  Most often these days I use a pre-64 in either 30-06 or 308, but sometimes I take out the 270.  Figure on a nice relaxing animal hunt when I get back from hunting savages in Iraq.

ROE's, at least at the tactical level for this unit, are pretty good.  With the obviously exceptional BS for the cultural shit, which IMO is crap.  SH blew the shit out of Karbala back in 1991, and none of the shities said boo.  Of course SH was killing them wholesale.

A nice 340kt B61-5 over Najah would make a nice statement about American commitment to the WOT.  Would resoundingly shut up the fucking useless hadjis too.  Some of the greatest Western victories over the Middle Eastern skum were nothing more than sheer butchery(Salamis, Lepanto)  If you are not going to "man up" and do something about your condition, WTF should we care about their blathering?  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 04:03:45 (ZULU)


Ken M:  The Corps seems to have gotten over the "kinder, gentler" approach that ya'll talked up heading back in---in grand fashion.  The Marines are truly kicking ass in their sectors.

Which means, dude, you really need to be on your A-game.  After the first fight scares the shit outta ya--the rest kinda happen in slow motion.  Use the time advantage of seeing it develop to NOT DOING ANYTHING DUMB.  Heheh.  Keep yer ass down and all that.  BTW--Dumb things become apparent to ya after you began moving on one.  In those cases, I hereby present you with a piece of my strangely reliable luck.  I shall pray you never need it!

Rick, Brian:  Nice to hear the Joe Curry range still gets used for its intended purpose.  Joe, for those not knowing, was a CPT in A-2-10 who lost his life on FLT 103.  He was on his second team (that says alot)--the HALO crew.  They were returning from the European comps--and he OJ'd the airport to make the connection--leaving his team in the bar.  His 3d baby was just born, and he was in a hurry to go meet her for the first time.  We dedicated that range to his memory---and then the base closed.  It is still used.  I am smilin' over that.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 04:41:37 (ZULU)


Maj Joe, all part of the disinformation campaign to get the hadjis to run their sucks so we could ID who gets blasted:)  Hope things are going good on the home front.  

Thanks for the luck.  Actually looks like I'm going to need it.  Got tasked with some new idea missions.  So they could be incredibly good ideas, or they could suck and I'm the guy who gets to make it work that one FUBAR time anyways.  Anyhow that's all that goes on the internet.  Gotta go tour the Bn area.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M    

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 04:51:39 (ZULU)


Rick, I would use that constant, but I went to all the trouble to learn the wind values outta da book, and I'm too damned stubborn NOT to use them now.  You're close, close enuff for most work.  

Vern, the reason it bounced is because we gave AOL the old heave-ho a long time ago, but I can't seem to get my sign on for the Duty Roster changed.  Try gthammer@hotmail.com.

Major Joe, I got a daughter that's 88M, and she'll most likely be heading to BFE in the near future.  Think you could shoot me a few suggestions I could print out and mail to her?  She's been home and is headed back for "AAAAAAAARmy training, SIR!" ( I love that line)

Hit 50 yesterday.  Some reflections on living half a century:

Ouch.

Ooof.

Groan.

I wish I hadn't done that.

I wish I HAD done that!

One good thing I've gotten out of it....Boudicca got me a bottle of Scotch that's older than most of my kids!  The GlenLivet, ahhhh....you get a buzz just knowing it's in the cupboard.

Well, gotta go. Y'all hold hard.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 13:26:40 (ZULU)


Charles,

  Since I passes the 50 mark over 7 years ago, I've learned to live by three simple rules:

     1.  Never pass a bathroom.

     2.  Never waste an erection.

     3.  Never trust a fart!!!!

  Everything else comes naturally.  Happy birthday.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 15:20:49 (ZULU)


Charles,

Happy B'day. I'm almost there myself. I got an AARP magazine the other day and started to put it back in the box and noticed it was addressed to ME?

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 15:31:27 (ZULU)


Charles, Happy Birthday partner! Your ALMOST catching up to me!! Yep I know the AARP thing I keep getting letters from them wanting me to re-join! SO I write all over the application that if and when they change their position on the 2nd Amendment I might consider re-joining! THEN use their own postage paid return envelope to send it back to them!!! :-)

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 16:04:40 (ZULU)


Rick - "last minute push"

I figure if the Pres keeps dragging his ass on the renewal, I should maybe open a boutique selling those long black "Matrix" coats like Neo wears.

They would be the perfect concealment for a '14.  Include a shoulder strap to hang the '14 from and even one for the bayo.

Yeah, that's the ticket!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 16:30:13 (ZULU)


Hi Guys

Does anyone know of a gunsmith in the Monmouth County area of New Jersey?

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 17:51:03 (ZULU)


Gents,

Moe, so it's Matrix coats. I like the idea, but I already have a trench coat and tennis shoes...;-)

As to fine Scotch...inmate said; "I like my women like I like my Scotch. About 12 years old." Is it any wonder he's in prison. Suspect he should have picked a different "hobby".

These guys must all be democrats. They do something bad and then blame it on the other guy or just say it's not really a crime.

On the .270. Good cartridge. Threw it out there to start a dicsussion and yank Bravo's chain. Compared the 7x57, .308, and .35 Whelan Imp. last night for trajectories at 300. Even the Whelan only drops 15" at 300 with the other two in the 12-13" category. This with 140's Sierra's , 175 SMK's, and 250 gr Speer bullets.

Bravo, glad to hear that we have another gas gunner. Can't coun't myself as one even though I have the Geoff Corn M25. Just wedded to bolt actions. If I were a couple days older it'd probably be flintlocks!

All for now. WY6 and hold hard.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 18:31:53 (ZULU)


Bravo - I have a 26" stick in .308 that easily launches a 155 scenar at 2850-2900 fps.  The bullet tracks pretty close to the published BC...

I'd look it up but I'm sitting here in the beach in the Outer Banks of NC, with a beer in my hand and I just don't have the energy to pull down the site (vacation does that to ya').... I'm betting the example provided outperforms most of the 'jump tolerant' load offerings in .270. I wont even get into the difference in research, experience and surplus available between the two loads....  

I also have a long winded point about recoil....I can see how you might consider the .308 too stout, heck, the military dropped the M14 for some good reason <g>

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 18:52:24 (ZULU)


Happy B-day Charles!!!  Next time your in Dallas holler at me 'n we'll sample s'more Single Malts!!!!  Althought I do have to promote Dewer's  . . .  the family brew.  

Keep your powder dry, and, your flint sharp!!

Jim

Jim McNabb Email this member See this member's profile
Arlington, Texas, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 19:40:12 (ZULU)


Injun singer; "I don't care who you are, thas funny!:)" And so sadly true.

You ain't from New Jersey are you? :)

Ya'll gotta pay tension bout these Bushmaster barrels they call chrome lined and hvy 20"ers seem to be the worst about it. The plain truth is these things will shoot 3 rounds to 1 MOA and then theys a lawn sprinkler with the next 4 or 5. Had about 3 of em come by lately all the same story. My advise to the complaintants is to put a Wilson Match 1 in 8 seems a good choice rite back there on that same receiver. Ya'll had any experience like that?

We need to get rid of all these Salt Riffles anyhow!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 20:47:56 (ZULU)



Hello,

I'm an FNG, and I was wondering if anyone's heard of Score High Gunsmithing of Albuqerque, NM, or its gunsmith, Charley Robertson.  His website (www.scorehi.com) details quite an impressive array of accurizing, and other 'smithing services, but I have yet to find any testamonials to his work.  I've also been working on getting a quote from Robar, which is in my area, and whom I intend to have finish the rifle I'm building, regardless of who does the rest of the work.

The rifle I'm building is a Rem. 700VS .308 (pretty standard), and I'm having the action trued, a stainless match barrel throated for the Federal/Sierra 168 match BTHP, muzzle threaded for OPS INC R3E2C brake, receiver aligned & re-tapped for 8-40 mount threads, and bolt handle cut & threaded for Badger tactical knob.

Any thoughts?  Other recommendations for the work?

Once Springfield starts getting their new scope line out to the public, I intend to mount the 6-20x50 mil-dot, and see how well the same plane reticle works at different settings.  An AI 1.5 stock, & AI bipod will be added as well.

Also was wondering if anyone's got a Shilen Select Stainless match barrel they put the Federal 168 match through, and what twist works best with this combo.

Any help would be wonderful!  

A bit of background on me: I've easily qualified expert each of the 5 years I was in the Marine Corps (as an airwinger in MAG-32 & MAG-14-Cherry Point, NC), and have been shooting sporadically before & since.  I am just now getting into building a serious rifle, and hope to enter long range competition & more, once I learn enough and have the experience.  I've been reading everything I can from this website, and others, and it's really great stuff.  As I take it all in, I intend to take to heart the advice given, and ask some of my own questions from time to time, starting here.  To those who are willing to help, I am greatful.

Semper Fi'!

-M-

Marc Mangieri Email this member See this member's profile
Gilbert, Arizona, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 20:54:21 (ZULU)


Ref: Memorial Service

Saturday I'll be attending a Memorial Service in Hanger #3 at the Rochester/Monroe County Airport for a good man lost in a crash last week.  Bill Law was his name and he gave me my Private Pilot Check Ride.  He was a good, kind and generous man.  We're waiting for the NTSB report.  He radioed that he'd lost an engine then both.  A very sad day.

Ref: M1A

Rule #1, Don't scope the rifle.  I mounted a M1LR atop a Smith Enterprise mount and the rifle made me crazy.  I went back to iron sights and it shot like a laser today.  I don't know why I keep doing this.  If only there was a funnel collar I could wear to keep me from chewing at this wound maybe it would heal up.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 21:14:14 (ZULU)



Kevin

Just last nite I gave up on scoping my M1A. I had a Leupold Vari X 3 with ARMs mount on it and could never get it right. I know that the civilian M1As are machined slghtly differtly and the ARMs mount just won't work. I described the situation to the people at Springfield, they said to send it in and they would correct it. They said its a common problem. That was about a year ago. Never made it right. I put the scope on a different rifle.

I do know that, I believe its Bravo on this board who has the secret to making it work. I just don't think an M1A will ever be right with a scope. Not designed for it. just my humble opinion.

Doug

doug sickels Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 21:55:07 (ZULU)



Kevin,

My sympathy to you and your instructor's loved ones.  It's tough to find out that an instructor is human just like the rest of us lowly peons.  My first T-28 instructor bought it in a mid-air.  Didn't hear about him until several years later and it still tore me up.  At least they were doing what they loved.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The STORMY Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 23:05:24 (ZULU)


Kevin, very sorry to hear of the bad news. My prayers for the family.

On the M14 scope thing, I have george building me one as we speak. This time I am going with one of the forged actions built off the military plans, minus the full auto features.  I will let you know if this helps scopes problems.  Just cant get these darn guns out of my systems and California wont let us have AR10s so this is the only new semi 308 you can get here.

Well off to surgery at 0630 hrs, Thursday. Will check back in a few days.

Everyone take care and be safe.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Wednesday, August 25, 2004, at 23:59:30 (ZULU)


Undude/Mike,  Wishing you a successful surgery and a speedy recovery

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 01:38:23 (ZULU)


Marius,

You have incoming email.

PJC Email this member See this member's profile
Upstate, SC, US of A - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 02:07:58 (ZULU)


Marc,

I've got several rifles built by Charley, one of them will be going to South Africa as part of the US National F-class team.  I've got no complaints about the work Charley has done on my rifles; varmint, tactical, or competition.

I've pretty much gone over to cut rifle barrels, Krieger and Mike Rock 5R at the moment.  I've also got several Borders on order.  I'd get a 1:11.25 or 1:11 and shoot 175 SMKs if your going to be shooting out to 1K.  

Feel free to contact me off-line, be more than happy to give you my $0.02.

FCS

FCS Email this member See this member's profile
Central , NM, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 02:08:28 (ZULU)


Ken - Do not know the diffence as we avoid them like the plague.  I would use the KN250s or the KN200s over the PVS-10s.  Too many paroblems of wandering zeros, and splitting the light between two paths, etc for my taste.  We recommended that they not be purchased as they failed all of our tests, but they were bought anyway.  Oh well.  If I had the choice, I would go with the UNS package that we have, McCann rail, UNS night sight, with the Loopie M3LR in 3.5 x 10.  Nice rig.  :)

Charles Hunt - Happy Birthday, and since I passed 50 about 7 years ago, I agree with Roger!!!  Any rate. Where did you get your constants for the 175?  They look strangely like the constants for the old M80 ball ammo.  I know from working the 175gr constants out that the 10 constant is dead on at 600 meters.  Your constants do not get to 10.  The constants you have would indicate a lighter faster bullet then the 175.  Just curious, I am hoping not from the Ultimate Sniper book.  :)

Moe - I'll buy one, got a CCP just for that event!  :)

Wes - Not wedded to Flint but do like my Percussion lock.

Scoping the M1A - You may find that the mounts are your problem.  Try the McCann mount, it is said to be as good as the old Brookfield, which is the only mount I ever found to work wortha darn.

UnDude - Good luck with your new bang stick!  :)  And of course your little surgery, but then you don't need luck for that.  :)

Well, just finished the Adavanced Marksmanship Exam with the students.  Not bad, not great, normal students. Time to shut up and crawl back into my hole.

Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 03:00:48 (ZULU)


Patron Mike, you've got my best wishes on the sword fight tomorrow. It IS a sword fight, right? I mean, a surgeon's scalpel against reweld guinsu knives? Really though, I'm pulling for you. Heal quick. Can I assume that the receiver you got was an LRB? Hope so, then you can give me a detailed review ;-) They're pretty scarce in this part of the country, and I've been happy so far with my "old" Springfield (pre-sproingfeld) receivers. One of my LEAST problems with the PRK for me would be no ratguns LOL! The no Galil, no FAL, no G3 would bother me more.

Andy's Dad, sorry to hear of your loss. Good instructors are difficult to obtain. Seems they have a nasty habit of becoming friends when you do find 'em. My condolences.

Doug, Andy's Dad (and you too Mike, if you feel the need later).... you guys know you're always welcome to hit me up on the scope mounting stuff. Heck, I even volunteered to put one on there for Patron 'Yote Bait. Ask Dennis about how well it works..... Just don't listen to him too much! He's the only guy that's outsmarted me on this. I'm guessing he's got tool design and manufacture in his blood. Or there's a stack of folks on the "other site" that I've helped out as well to ask. In my "spare" time -you know, what you call the stuff you never have- I'm tapping out a good set of instructions for net publication on a '14 site, so I don't have to keep doing it. Can it be mounted? Heck yes. Can sproingfeld mount it? Uh.... To quote a mentor of mine, it's similar to asking the grocery boy what kind of wine to serve with dinner. He may well know, but you shouldn't wager anything on it. In any case, I will give you this right now: the proper way of mounting the ARMS mount has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the way the instructions dictate, other than the fact that you'll need a rifle, the mount, and a torque wrench. After that, discard the instructions, unless you like yours to shoot loose, have built-in slop, or just flat not fit right. I've caught others mention that certain receivers mandate that part of the mount be ground down for clearance. This could be the case, but at this time, I can honestly state that I've never seen that personally.

FNG Marc, I used to have things done by Robbie there in your AO. Since then, I've found what I consider to be better solutions. My standard answer is to have Geoff build the stick. There's another guy there local to you, worked with Robbie for quite some years before going it on his own. The only reason I hesitate to recommend him for this specific build is that I can't say as that I've shot one of his Remblingtons. Hit me off line if I can help. Not that I know anything about the guy you're talking about......

As Jim in the Peoples Republic of Arlington (for a short time I lived off Park Row, where the police respond with "bang-bang-bang-bang..... freeze, police!") said, Happy Birthday Charles!

Revrund Jim, I don't disagree with your Lapua bullets, or your ballistics. I'm just saying that the Scenar, as I understand it, isn't exactly good hunting fodder. Even if it was, I've heard too many horror stories of folks not using the 150 30 cals to the best of end result on the larger North American game. I'm not talking moose, I'm talking the bigger mulies. I always chose the 180's myself, for the '06, to get the same penetration as...... well, as what you'd get with a 270 ;-) Like I said, for a tactical stick, the 308 beats the 270 all over. For a hunting stick, the 270 has a mild edge. Nothing like comparing a 300 win mag against a 308, but not nothing either. Besides, we're talking apples and oranges. Factory 270 loads against optimized 308's. Optimize the 270, and you've got an approximation to almost as much "extra" kicked in as optimizing the 7X57 or the 6.5 Swede. Both will run literal rings around what the loading books or factory ammo provide. And just for the record (I know you were funning with me, no worries!) I didn't say the 308 was too much recoil for me. I just said that any time I can get less, I like that. If that weren't the case, there wouldn't be any real recreational application for the 22's, including the 5.56! HA! DOUBLE HA!

Sir Wes, good to hear you're doing fine with your "buddies" LOL! HA! I agree, that 15" drop isn't significant. Kind of. It's only significant when you've got a hunter like me, who refuses to diddle elevation settings during the hunt. I like hunting cartridges that give me something similar to the 5.56 NATO with 55's. Something where I don't need to concern myself with drops.... if I can see it, and feel good about engaging it at that distance, I know my shot will be within the size zone that I'm going for. Of course this normally means that I don't shoot beyond about 200 yards. Who cares. I'm not sniping game anyway, they deserve better than the possibility of my "oops".

Like HDR said, don't badmouth the 7X57. One can stoke it to rival any 280 around, in factory loadings I mean. Of course the extra 10% of the 280 (or the 284) gives it an edge, when optimized. At least it should. I haven't owned either one, but one of my relatives that I do hunt with loves the 280, and loads for it. I'd let youse guys know what I've done with a 7X57, but you'd call me a liar. Well, some of youse anyway. Ken told me some of what he'd done with it, and it sounded like we'd tred the same path on the same ground.

Patron Yote Bait, good stuff. I figure Jack knew of what he spoke. I'm convinced that the majority of hunters out there (and you notice I threw myself into this category), have little in the way of need to shoot beyond a couple hundred yards. Three at the outside. Once you get beyond that "hedge it up a few inches" boundary into the "hedge it up a foot or so", well, things get shaky ;-)

And Revrund Moe goes Neo, trench coat and all. OK. I just didn't know that in this Matrix, one had to snort a line of geritol to get "plugged in"! OOOOOOOOOOO! Sorry there amigo, just had to take a poke at you. If that driveby bayonetting video is still out there, I'd appreciate you dropping a link to it on here. That was HUMOR! 1-800-ban-a-lug ;-)

Master Rick, thanks for the advice. Now do you have a fav-o-rite brake for the mousegun? I'm guessing that I'll have to revisit my powder choice for the round, but nothing too dramatic it seems. I did a little looking (computer looking) today on the Sierra program. Seems that if I can keep 3200 fps, then I'm good for any distance I'd prefer that cartridge over the antique anyway. Figure a 1 MOA stick, and a wobble zone of +/- 1 inch, and you get plenty enough not shabby, unless I'm running LOL! I'll go with a low-flash, faster powder to give it a go. Any suggestions on that too?

Too much fun for now, going to watch my Black Adder and do housework.... ah, the fun of being Dad.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 03:24:57 (ZULU)


Oh JR, you should have seen Jon B, we got him so drunk, in fact we got us all so drunk, was over in Bavaria visiting the place we have the Brit hunters stay, was full swing into the weizen beers and then we all got invited to a brithday party in the village, so Pete Carr Jon n Me went along ( free food n booze) well i left a good half hour before Jon n Pete after chucking me ring, left pavement pizzas all the way to the hotel.. but i looked a hell of a lot better than Jon did in the morning, we visited a castel with a strange collection of antique weapons and shrunken heads, then went to a monistary and got served a nice dark beer by Friar Tuck..

Had Jon out in the woods till 03.00 trying to get him a piggy, we saw 3 sows and a bunch of young uns but they got our wind, then we went for a stalk about and saw some more, to dodgey to shoot up a track though, then it was up a tree stand for a while, had pigs about but the damn wind kept turning about, we could hear a wise old boar, circling the tree stand, sniffing the wind,, he might have eventualy come in but we had to bugger off cos i had to be at work at 04.00.

maybe get him a piggy tonight,,

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 05:16:58 (ZULU)


Gents,

For those who dislike scope mounts and M1A/M14's take a look at LRB of Long Island, Inc. web site. A FORGED M14 reciever with the scope mounts integral with the reciever!

Don't know about quality, but it looks interesting. Of course it means no open sights...

Friday is play day for me. Partner can't go, so I'm going to do some shooting with the M25 and M40A1. Feels like a .308 day!

On the 7X57, my hunting partner is getting 2,900 FPS in his rifle using 140 grainers...he IS pushing them hard, however.

Next two days are my "weekend". Hopefully, will have time to complete my analysis for your review.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 07:05:37 (ZULU)


Charles: Happy Bday and an email sent your way!

MedicJim:  Ya said the US dropped the M14 for some reason--Diya thunk it were stopping power?  Heheh.

Enjoy my ol' beach, ya bum.  I sometimes miss the NC area.  Sometimes.  That is, until school goes back in session.

Bill:  Bushies have a bad rep where I just was...may wanna look into that yerself as I never saw any problems vis=a=vis reliability.  But, they sure have some detractors in knowledgeable circles.  Pretty much the same problems I heard about here back in February.

Marc M:  As per discussion here a few years ago--1:11.25" was said to be a great compromise on twist.  As a guy stuck with 1:12, all I can say is go faster--won't hurt the 168s as bad as slow hurts the heavies.  

Andy's Dad:  Been toying with that idea---an optic-less M14 clone.  For reasons beyond frustration I think I'd prefer it that way.

My "scout track" instructor pilot bought it on his very next class.  At least he had an opportunity to drink good (great, IMHO) scotch just before that, courtesy me and my sidekick newbie pilot.  Dynamic roll-over got him--two students on board--only he was the only casualty.  Good man, and I like to think he did something to influence that outcome.  Coulda and shoulda been worse based on the damage to the airframe.

Mike:  Speedy recovery to 100%, my friend.  I'll pass that word in prayer.

Bravo:  I'm huntin' with a Mauser 6.5 swede this year.  Dang thing plain shoots and the historical aspect of 100 years' worth of well---years is something to recommend it.  Now, not-so-little Blake has an interest in the old stick for the same reason (he is amazed at the age and accuracy of this riffle).  If I tag on the opener, he will use her too.  If that is what it takes to edumacate a boy---then so be it.   Naturally--wifey will use the 270 as usual.  I may slip to Blake's 260 for the "all you can eat" Doe tag hunting.  Heheh.  That little model seven is fast to shoulder!  Just gotta get past the fowling barrel and major inletting problemos to like 'em.  

Dremels aren't just for crowns anymore--they straighten a bad inletting here and there...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Eau Claire, WI, Bygawd home in the USof A - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 08:29:52 (ZULU)



MIke; speedy recovery my man!

Kevin; sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, good men anywhere are hard to find anymore.

Bravo; ditto on the recoil situation. If you don't have to have it don't put up with it. I used the .270 for everything from Elk hunting to Coyote sniping for a long time. The speer Grand Slam 130 was the best big game bullet. MY parter used Nosler partition with great results. We never did get the accuracy out of the Noslers but most shots were mule deer or white tail within 200 yards or closer.

I used the old 130 spire Sierra for yotes. The fur buyer would always dock me and my partner for pelt damage. Since he bought all the dogs the greyhound hunters brought in for top price and usually paid .22-250 shooters max. We got a little pissed since our's weren't any worse than there's were. We had this little place we piled up the carcasses along with several other hunters. We swapped piles on the sob with some other .22-250 hunters and sure nuff we got docked anyway just cause it was where our pile was normally. After that I never let it be known we were using .270's and no problem with a different fur buyer. Most of the pelt comes off the chest anyway but anyway the moral is... don't let the fur buyer know what your using to kill em with. I punch em with .223 as of later years and no body  buys hides anymoe anyway due to the mange problem out here. I could use a .408 cheytech and it wouldn't matter. \

Long post already so I'll bow out.

I wondered about the mounts on the M1a scout and wonder if the same zero wander is prevelent on those rigs. Gooch had the best idea. Spot weld the damn things, but the resale might not be the best after that. Bravo has one that works but I sure don't and we went to AR-10's rather than face the problem. I've seen my son shoot his scoped M1a at 500 into a foot and a half group. Then pull off the scope and put em all in a coffee saucer. Go figure.

Doug; I just saw your post so's you don't have to wait.

Any short action Remington stock will fit your .223 as long as the barrel channel is ordered either for the varminter or the BDL models etc. Small barrel taketh a different stock but it would work by the way. The change in Remingtons to .223 involves the bolt and there's an insert to shorten the magazine to accomidate the .223 round.

10-4 on the Dremmel "stock adjuster" JOe.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 14:48:11 (ZULU)


“Moe, so it's Matrix coats. I like the idea, but I already have a trench coat and tennis shoes...;-)”

Wes, you have to learn to keep your hobbies seperate ..... :-O

"Rule #1, Don't scope the rifle (M1A).  I mounted a M1LR atop a Smith Enterprise mount and the rifle made me crazy.”

Kevin, don’t go blaming the M1A for your problems.  You know you started going crazy when your mother told you your father was Mr. Clean!

“And Revrund Moe goes Neo, trench coat and all. OK. I just didn't know that in this Matrix, one had to snort a line of geritol to get "plugged in"! OOOOOOOOOOO! Sorry there amigo, just had to take a poke at you.”

No problem there, Bravo.  But you may have hurt Boucher's feelings too.  After all, he's got one year up on me!

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 16:40:41 (ZULU)


Thanks to Bravo, FCS, and Mike for the great recommendations about Charley Robertson, and the twist rate.  I beleive the final result will be the 26" Shilen Select stainless match with 0-taper, and the 1:11.25 twist.  I'm sticking with Charley for the work, and still sending it to Robar for the finish.

Any thoughts on Mcmillan A5 vs. the A.I.C.S.?  I do like the idea of detachable magazines on the AICS, but that could just be a throwback to my semi-auto rifles.

One last thing, how do IOR mounts/rings compare to Badger?  All I can see is the cost difference, at the moment.

Thanks again, all!

-M-

Marc Mangieri Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 17:21:45 (ZULU)


Kevin (Andy's Dad)

Sorry to hear about friend and instructor. Keep the blue side up.

Major Joe,

When you were on Kuait, did you run across a Phrog guy by the name of Ken Robertson? I know he was there doing the CENTCOM thang. He's still there, and I'm heading out in a week or so so play in the sand, which is nice. Glad you made it back in one piece.

On the M1A scope mounts,

I was out doing my usual therapy via 1911, and I saw an interesting mount that a shooter had on their M1A. It was a Knight Armament RAS system that replaced the plastic/fiberglass heat shield with a top and 2 side rails, and a picatinny rear mount point that was mounted where the clip slot went. It looked pretty solid, I don't know if I would get it for my M1A, exept maybe for mounting an Aimpoint scope, but I thought it was interesting none the less.

UnDude,

Good luck on a speddy recovery.

Later

Kush out

Kush Email this member See this member's profile
Camp Pendleton, Kaliforniastan, - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 18:41:44 (ZULU)


Patron Yote Bait, yeah, I know what you mean. Bullet selection is a serious matter, but that applies to any caliber really. Just more so on some than others. On your scout question, I can honestly say that I have no idea. Sorry. And as for the spot weld, I’d agree if it weren’t for a couple of things... like #1, if you have a scoped ’14, why would you be concerned with resale value? I mean, who would WANT to sell a scoped ’14 to begin with? But the #2 point is more problematic. When someone welds on that receiver, that receiver can get ruined pretty easily. I recall that some units were welding both the BPT and the ARMS IIRC, with attendant losses of some receivers. That’s why I’m gung-ho about the LRB, if it works and is quality. It would be “the better mousetrap”.

Doug, no sweat. I figured out the secret TO the ARMS mount just before I found out the secret ABOUT the ARMS mount. I haven’t purchased anything from ARMS since IIRC. One trade, but that was old for old. There’s a bit of history between the guy that owns ARMS, and a guy that was instrumental in the development of the ’25. Since I side with the second guy, I don’t purchase ARMS merchandise. The next ’25 I have built will need to use a Smith mount (taking Revrund Moe’s word for things, my oh my!) or the LRB receiver and no mount, if it gets proper review. Still, you got it, you need to make it work. No sweat.

Majuh Santa, of course you need an optic-less ’14 clone! EVERYONE does! I’m not railing anyone for wanting one sans optics, heck, I’ve got that base covered as well. I’m just saying that there’s a knack to mounting optics on this beast. Beat your head on it a few dozen times, and you’ll come to the same conclusions that I did: “wiggle is bad, no matter how small” and “small wiggle becomes big wiggle later, and later is too soon”. I’m just saying that it can be done, is currently done, and done right. Frustration? The third time on the sproingfeld mount, shooting it loose on the same trip to the range. Maybe I’m a glutton for punishment. Or maybe bitchface works covertly for the sproingfeld optics department ;-) On the Swede, it probably wouldn’t surprise anyone that at one point, it was the 1000 yard darling, as well as the military darling. With the advent of the 6.5X’06, I figured that we’d come full circle back when I was reading about the exploits of folks using it for long range back when I was a kiddo in school. Then we get Boots with the 260, whacking everything within lazing distance. OK, so what have we proven? Well, first off, we’ve proven that the 6.5 will do it all for a K anyway, given a non-lawyer written loading log and some good bullets. So a trip out with a 270, Swede, and Short Swede. Sounds like cake to me! Hope you bag your limit, and forward me a pound of top strap HA!

Sir Wes, that receiver doesn’t dictate no iron sights that I’ve seen. I checked it out upon debut, and it appears to me (unless I lost a brain cell or two in sleep) that some QD rings would make it as ideal as it could be. That’s why I was hoping Mike would be able to give a review. Other than the higher price from LRB, everything seems to be a better mousetrap. I guess, on second thought, it’s not THAT exorbitant just about $170, since it’s really the price of the receiver and the mount, so an extra buck and a half or so added. Just a touch pricy LOL! Sounds like your hunting partner is about there too with the 7 Mauser. Not too sure what action he’s using, or barrel length, but he’s not far behind where I stopped as well LOL! I have, however, been accused of attending the P.O. Ackley school of loading: THIS round is completely safe. Add 2/10ths of a grain, and there will be a crater where you were shooting ;-)

Marc, as far as finishing goes, you may want to check out Arizona Response Systems. Mark does some really decent work with the Metacol... interesting conversation with him about it, when it was developed, the resulting argument over who “owned” it, and the other folks doing it for a higher price.

Revrund Moe, that Mr. Clean jab was hilarious! I don’t even joke about that kind of stuff. Kind of like giving him a noogie, and coming away with blood and skin ;-)

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 19:07:31 (ZULU)



Optics alert...

  One more time for the slow guy!

 

 On a real live Mark IV M3, the one with the caps over the turrets knobs and straight 10 power.  I recall that they are not an equal amount of Up and Down adjustment when zeroed at 100 yards on a non-tapered base.  The are apparently non-centered for a 100 yard Zero.  Specs say 75 MOA UP and 52 MOA windage.

 On two seperate calls to Leupold I have gotten two different technical experts and each has a different story about this scope.  All-in-all I've come across three versions of what's correct, one says 10 MOA down and the rest up (65 MOA up), another says 20 MOA of "internal taper" so about 60 MOA up and 15 down and lastly the standard "centered" so 35 MOA up and 35 MOA down.  

 What's the REAL skinny from those that know

 Update:::

 Just got through to Garth Kendig (spelling ?) at leupold and he states about 67 minutes of total elevation adjustment but once zeroed then limited to one revolution by the "stop" (a given for the M3).  He also states (interprepted by me)that there's no diffence between the M3LR (or apparently any other Leupold scope) and the Mk4 M3 in that it's "centered" so theoretically an equal amount of up and down elevation initially.  He also states that a 308 should have no problem getting to 1000 yards with the scope on a flat base but that due to receiver irregularities one could require a tapered base.  

 Once again... any first hand knowledge on the Mk4 M3's is appreciated.

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 19:32:02 (ZULU)


Gents,

God works in mysterious ways. My last post went...? So, now there is a post from Bravo I can reply to...go figure.

Moe, You think using Nike's instead of Keds would improve the success ratio? Inquiring minds. Suppose I can always ask our rapists and Child Molesters (Chomo's) what worked fof them. Of course they were all "bum beefed, set-up, or being persecuted for having a "hobby". Think I'm getting a sick sense of humor working at OSP.

Marc M., Go with a 1:10" twist barrel. You can always shoot heavies if you want. All my .308's have that twist except my Geoff Corn M25 which used a 1:11.25" twist. By the way 190 gr. SMK's fly flatter to 600 than the 168/175 SMK's. Not by much, but enough to see the difference. Recoil is a bit more "manly".

M1A/M14 mounts. Have to agree. I'm still working on my "Bravo" fix. Rifle wants to shoot, but am having unexplained flyers. Gas guns...any wonder why I like turnbolts better?

6.5's. My first one was my IBA 6.5 X .284. I've shot some incredible groups will it. Worked with a 6.5/06. almost a dead ringer for the 6.5X.284. The .264 Winch Mag is a waste of time, IMHO.

Burns barrels and lots of powder. Has to have a 26" barrels to get anywhere near published velocities. The 6.5/08 has taken the Hi-Power shooters by storm. We see a lot of them here. John Benjamin, up towards Portland, makes his own barrels and installs them for you. One day service. Accuracy and price are wonderful. John's a degree'd engineer that prefers to get his hands dirty. Good stuff.

Excellent article in the the September 2005 issue of the Accurate Rifle. The article is entitled "The .308, survivor in Magnum Land". Good read.

Mike, hope your surgery went well. Keep us appraised of your progress.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 20:00:51 (ZULU)


Marc Mang,

If you stick to 168 sierra you will be ok with 12 twist rate, stick within 11-12" rate and you'll shoot anywhere..how longs that barrel again?  Recommendations is Robertson, or try George Gardner at GA Precision or Jeff Hicks at HD rifles...

Pete,

HA!!!  Youse englischers change the roadsigns back eh?  und zee velshlander has found the weizenbier again??...Wicked..Jes gie him a shot of schnapps in the morning, that'll get him rezeroed...Wish I was there to join in the escapades mate..tell those UK bozos not to bother about coming back yet, still raining..

Bill,

just so many applications for the dremel....You see a guy with a chisel on a bedding job, HA!!!  dremel power rules...

later

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Scotland the Brave, just north of England - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 20:21:19 (ZULU)



Doc King,

I did a pool of MkIV M3 users about 2 years ago.  Of the 6 or so guys I got mail from,, 2 used tapered bases (undude and one other).  The rest either had a flat base or had to shim under the FRONT of their base.

The average elevation BELOW the 100y zero with a flat base was 15MOA.  

This tells me it is not opticlly centered, or at least was not at the time I did this pool, and with the scopes that most of these guys use.

My money goes to a flat base with this scope.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 20:45:49 (ZULU)


Chris

 Don King is the other guy, tall/bad hair sorta fella  :), I'm the Mr Magoo guy, grey hair - thick glasses..

 Thanks for the info...  I'll do my own test tonight and let you know..

 This scope is just sitting on my Rem 40X with Leupold MK4 two piece bases.  I'll bore sight the the thing and maybe take a shot or two then let you know.

 /r

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 20:58:09 (ZULU)



Mark Mangieri,

On store-bought ammo, you need to take a look at Black Hills w/175 gr. Sierra's.

I'm not going to say they are better than Federal's but...

And if you are going to spend this much on a rifle, I can think of better places to save money than on scope mounting. Go Badger!

4i's Email this member See this member's profile
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 21:08:34 (ZULU)



Sir Wes

If you have a copy of the September 2005-that's NEXT YEARS- issue of any magazine, I'd like to rent your time machine!  There's a couple of short periods in my life I'd like to revisit with what I know NOW:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Mike-best of luck on the surgery.  Maybe you want to have a chat with your doc about your hobbies before surgery.  Sorta mortivate increased concentration and dedication.  

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 22:17:14 (ZULU)



Chris

 Just bore-sighted the rifle with the Leupold Mk4 M3 and the flat Leupold two (2) piece Mk4 bases.  I have 31 MOA down (counted after resetting the turret) and 44 MOA (counted) up.  I watched the "clicks" go in the "up" direction and they all track/move.

 Now to find a different "CAM".  I have the 308M and the critter wants to count to 40 before it gets to the "10" and I don't care to live in metricland...my brain is calibrated to yards.

 The scope was a good deal in the Bargain Cave at Cabela's ($850).

 I'll shoot a few rounds shortly (days) and double check the bore-sight job and counts.

Edited at 2040 EST

 Just back from the bore sight confirmation, elevation was correct so the up and down numbers are good to go.

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, USA - Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 23:00:06 (ZULU)


Kush: Was wondering where you were...don't know your phrog jockey---at least, I dunno if I know him.  So many people became my best friend in that supply gig down in Kuwait.  Heheh.  

Bravo:  Wife read yer post.  Don't be surprised if a backstrap shows up on dry ice.  

CAR15 with barrel re-set and tight now sits on mechanical zero and dead center on the aimpoint.  At least the externals were true....

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 04:01:22 (ZULU)


Sir Wes,,

"By the way 190 gr. SMK's fly flatter to 600 than the 168/175 SMK's. Not by much, but enough to see the difference. Recoil is a bit more "manly".

I would not use 190's in the M1A, unless you got a cheap source of replacement parts................175's is max...........IF, thAT IS WHAT I THINK  READ.......LOL

TS

Two Shoes Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 04:30:04 (ZULU)



14s/1As:

Man I love my bolt guns but when you pick up a 14 ... You just know you have a rifle in your hands. Just fits ... points.

Marty/George say LRB is the shiznit. Forged. Spec is close, close. Just bought one.

Springfield having all kinds of probs according to some of the crowd over at www.battlerifles.com.

Paste this to the ole browser:

http://www.msgt-maze.com/LRBm14BushRifle.html?1064805834088

Mmmm Mmmm Mmmmmmmmmm ... Come to Poppa. Mine will be OD.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 04:33:47 (ZULU)


Heads up......for you M1A fans.

Great prices on Taiwan type57 20 rounders @

www.dansammo.com

www.ammuntionsales.com

Dan's seem to have less rust/cleaner, but are a couple of $$ less expensive..........

Really appear never issued.......if they were parked, it would be difficult to tell from USGI.

Finished in blue, look as good as USGI, and are said to have been made on USGI Machinery.

Mil is said to be buying them, so they won't last long.

Look/fit, was better than the Chinses mags......and at less thatn $15.00 a pop.

TS

Two Shoes Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 04:46:12 (ZULU)


Gents,

OK, I had a typo on the date of my Sept. Accurate Rifle. Should have read 2004.

M1A/M14 shooters. I was refering to use in a bolt gun when I mentioned using 190 gr. SMK's. My load give an honest 2,600 FPS out of my 26" Obermeyer barrel.

Even I'm not crazy enough to shoot 190's in my gas guns!

Sorry for the confusion.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 04:56:32 (ZULU)


I chatted with Undude this afternoon and he is doing well and the Doc said his knee was pretty messed up, but he will be ok now. He sounded amazingly cheerful and dreamy... (which was suprising if you know Mike!)

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
Los Gatos, CA, - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 06:22:26 (ZULU)


Gents - as my attendance here even as a lurker has dropped off as of late - I have to ask....

Did I miss or are we due for a rifle raffle?

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 08:03:44 (ZULU)


Doc King,

it would seem you either have one that's close to opticlly centered, or your rear base is too low.  You'll still have plenty to get you to 1K provided you're pushing 175's at least 2600MV (as I'm sure you know)and don't get into really cold weather.

I find it odd that there are so many different reads on these MkIV M3's.  It seems you never know what you're going to get.  If I get a MkIV,, it'll be the 16X.  No doubt that 144MOA will "get me there".

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 12:33:59 (ZULU)



M3A vs. M3LR - We have always had enough elevation to zero close and go out past 1000 meters with the M3A.  We have to shim the M3LRs to do that.  My weapon toped out at 650 meters when zeroed at 200 meters.  The differences were 575 meters to 725 meters on the first six weapons we set up.  We are going to a tapered base for the M3LR.

I would not weld a base onto a reciever.  Kinda heats the sucker up a bit and limits your upgrade possiblities in the future.  :)

Moe - Don't know about you but I don't snort Geritol, I snort Centrium Silver with licopin.  So HA Bravo!!  :)

Marc - I don't like the AICS stocks but the detachable box is good for some work.  Think about the H$S as well.  Personnaly, I think they are more durable then the McMillian.

Kush - Are you sure that it was a Knight or was the system a McCann?

Bravo - Why would anyone weld a BPT mount.  It worked fine as it was designed.  Agree 100% about ARMS.  Never would buy form them and we just pulled an ARMS ring off of a Ranger's rifle due to defective construction.

Doc King - That is not what I was told by Leupold back in 85 when we first started testing the scope and it was called the Ultra series.  We have never had a problem going out to range with the M3A but have always had trouble with the Vari X series (M3LR).  The 168 gr was a real bear and the 175 gr is also a problem.  I can only account this to the fact that the M3A is not centered with wasted moa.  My take, and I do not trust everything I get from techies that were not around when the original spec on the scope we made up.  I presently have 2 10 moa shims under my base to get out to 900 meters with the M3LR and when I took my M3A off it would go past 100 on a flat base.  You tell me. :)

Chris - My bet is that the rear base is low due to the differences in the reciver.  I hate two piece mounts for that reason, it can torque the scope instead of the base.  Rather have the pressure on a 100.00 dollar base then a 1000.00 dollar scope.  :)

The 16 power could bite you at closer ranges and the mirage could kill you in some situations.  Good luck wiht it.

Undude - Recover fast mate, and ahve a beer to ease the pain, I know those pills are not doing the job. :)

Well got to go, have fun guys and play nice.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 13:48:50 (ZULU)


Rick,

if I put a 16X on a rifle, it would be a dedictated NRA Prone rifle, not anything I'd shoot inside 600yards. I shoot 15X at 600 now, and it's been fine when the mirage band is on the barrel.

I use a 3.5x15x50 NXS and a 8.5x25x50M1 for my LR rifles now (match rifles) and they work well.  20X is about max for me, as my trigger control gets a bit touchy if I go higher.  Makes me want to grab it when the reticle lines up.  I'm working on that.

I have a 24X Leupold BR scope on a new rifle (it came with it), so I best get over it or give the scope to my wife and buy another 8.5x25M1, or 16X MkIV.

I like between 16 to 20X for 1K match shooting, but having the option to go back to 3x or 4x is pretty much imparative when I'm in the woods.  I like the FOV and lack of reticle movement from positional (adaptive?) shooting.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 14:16:38 (ZULU)


Chris, Rick

 As I mentioned before, the info from Leupold seems to change over time, as Rick also mentioned.  In the past I talked to one person at Leupold and was told the MK4 M3 was different from all the rest in that it had a LOT of up and VERY LITTLE down by design.  I'm fairly aware of historical data migration and the "near" truths that seem to evolve.

 I have the Leupold bases and will soon have a Badger tapered one piece clip slotted base but wanted to make sure I'd be able to Zero the thing at 100 yards with a tapered base.  Based on yesterdays data it appears I can use a tapered base provided by current receiver and mounts are not too far off in alignment.  With the 75 "clicks" (MOA) I have in the scope my current Zero indicated I'm off center (tapered) by about eight (8) to nine (9) MOA after the ~4MOA 100 yard correction is figured back in.  So my guess is the scope is NOT CENTERED but has at least a 10 MOA up advantage.  I'll play again after I get the one piece tapered base installed.

Dave "Doc" King Email this member See this member's profile
Maryland, USA - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 14:44:51 (ZULU)



All who dare;

30mm scope tubes should almost all make it to 1000 with .308 or faster without some kind of tapered base as long as the power isn't too high. 4.5X14X40 1" Leupold Tacticals s usually make it without tapered bases. I've not tried everything they make but all the MK's made it. Trouble sometimes comes in when the bases aren't centered horizontally and the vertical tops out against the curved sections. Just for those who haven't made up their mind... Check the Weaver tactical 4.5X14. It's got plenty of range and glass is good.  I should say it's not up to Leupold standards but I'm unable to tell the difference except the turrets seem more resettable and accurate than the Leupolds I've had.

Considering the fact that some receivers have been demilitarized by cutting them in two pieces and have been rewelded and are back in service I guess welding a scope base is possible without making the receiver warp or become unserviceable. You got to have a welder that knows what he's doing but I think it would be more an act of frustration than a practical answer. The same thing could done with proper welding equipment to a bolt rifle or anything else. Bases could be silver soldiered on if moving were an issue.  This might be a little radical and I assure you I have no welded bases or welded receivers but you gotta keep an open mind. (mine is especially hollow). There is a scope you can use without tapered bases and it makes it every time unless you have a drastic error in your mounting and doesn't have to be tweaked between every shot. But I aren't allowed to mention certain.#$@&$#..... scopes for fear of offending certain members of the concrete mindset class.:) (thats not you!)

The A-max class of bullets would be 3 or 4 MOA easier to make the 1000 yard mark if you happen to be thinking of changing and are having trouble with 1K with what you have.  The 178grain A-max is easily the best 30 cal bullet I'VE USED in my sticks to date , bar none. The 190 MK Sierra is the next best. So what do I shoot. Mostly 168 gr. Sierra Match kings. Mainly because I can always get em.  I'd do 168 or less in those Gassers if it were me, A max 168 will track high but it will  make speed of sound at 1000 yards easily out of 24" barrel in .308. The AR10 doesn't G.A.S. (care) what you shoot in it or so it seems as long as it's within normal bolt action pressure expectations.

The other thing is, 4.5X14 is about all the magnification that can be used out here in Mirage country. Anything else you just think you can see better or think that you can when the mirage is down but it is unneccessary to go above the 14X limit. 10X will net groups at 1000 as good as higher powers do for me at least. I don't detect any group size expansion until I get below 6X and that's only if the target is a little hard to see. A good paper target doesn't require lots of power to find dead center. Palma shooter will bear this out.

I have yet to witness anyone's score going up because of magnication changes but it is more fun to see the target a little bigger.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 15:05:33 (ZULU)


Marc..

 Noticed your post on the barrel for your new rifle as being "0" taper. I would reconsider that if I were you. I have had a LOT of heavy barreled rifles an everytime I build another one they get lighter.

 If your going to use it for tactical shooting, remember, you have to carry it 95% of the time an only shoot it 5% of the time. I think a Remington or Winchester HB taper is pretty close to being a perfect weight barrel. That weight of barrel is plenty heavy enough to put a bunch of rounds through and not get to hot. Its stiff enough to give great accuracy when heated up an still not to heavy to carry over hill an dale. Another thing to look at is the stock. You want one that is comfortable to carry also, meaning NO sharp square edges!! You can be guaranteed they will dig into you at every opportunity they get!! Just my thoughts on it, from someone who has humped a bunch of heavy rifles.

Rick B..

  I have a couple of the early 3.5x10LRs if thats what your refering to. I have a Remingtion LR base on my 308 that has the rings centered for the scope an then "Tig" welded to the base so they won't move an with this set up an 168s I can shoot 1000+ yds with it an still have some elevation left.

 On my 260 I had the standard one piece base with a tapered shim an could also get past 1000+ yds with it. I understand your talking meters but still both of mine will make 1000yds with no problem of running out of adjustments. To be fair I send my 308s out at round 2800fps an only need around 34 MOA to be on at 1000yds, as does the 260.

 I recently purchased one of the new 4.5x14s with the 30MM tube an the side focus with the 42MM obj on the front. I had the MK4 knobs put on it an love it. Its really a bright an clear scope. I plan on putting it on one of my 308s for the more "Precice" shooting where the 1/4" clicks will help. Glad to see you back on board have missed your input.

Mike..

  Hope your recovery goes well, invatation is still open.

Ken..

 Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, those are never easy.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 15:13:23 (ZULU)


Re: Leupold M3 Mark 4 scopes; I have had about 10 or so of these scopes, and still have 5, and I have never had any trouble getting a zero at 100 yards with the Badger 20 MOA tapered base. I know that Undude has also had the sames results with a LOT more M3 scopes. Some say you can't get a zero at 100 yards with the M3 and a tapered base, but I have never seen it.

Perhaps some folks are not losening the colar properly? I guess that you should use what works for you..

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
Los Gatos, CA, - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 15:16:36 (ZULU)


Maj Joe,

Just been busy over on "The Rock" I dove on this grenade to have a little vacation from the monotony of Oki living. But, if the Phrog gods smile upon me, I may get a little red time in my log book, which is always nice. Good to have you back CONUS. My buddy in Kuait was making coffee and powerpoint slides over at CENTCOM, living the good life. The only bummer is IMEF won't let us take personal weapons over, bummer!

Master Rick,

It was a Knight Armament rail system. Between surfing porn last night, I found it on da web at Cal's. Click on the URL fo the page. It kind of attaches like the RAS for my M-4. Touching the barrel like that, I don't know what it'd do on a precision type gun, but it looks like a neato addition to a battle rifle.

Re: M3 Mk4, Before I sold it to Catshooter, my 10x MK4 was a great scope. Had the Badger rings, 20 MOA tapered base, and had no problem zeroing 100 - 800yds. 800 was about as far as I could shoot due to Western NY's lack of longer ranges, the 10x worked nice. I do have a Vari-X on one of my hunting guns and love it.

Later

Kush out

Kush Email this member See this member's profile
CPen, Kaliforniastan, - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 16:36:04 (ZULU)


Well Hogs and Dog Faces, I am back from surgery and frankly feel guilty because this has been the most painless surgery experience I have ever gone through.  The Doc went in, ground out large pieces of upper and lower Meniscus, ground some bad bone away and did a tightening job on my ligaments.  I woke up an hour after surgery wondering if anything had been done because no freakin pain at all.  Here I am with two big old bottles of pain meds and nothing hurts. Well I did take Rick's advice and medicate myself after with a few beers.LOL  This all looks good and I am walking with a cane today, less than 24 hours after surgery.  What a difference from my last knee operation. Now if you guys in California need a good knee Doctor, try Steven Isono.  He is the Warriors and Raiders Doctor and what a nice guy to boot.

Well just one more surgery when thye think this is healed enough.  Thats a Bicep reattachment, which I am told will eb something to remember.LOL

On the MK4 M3 thing.  I have used these on many Badger 20moa bases with good results. Never had a problem getting zero.  One thing is I slip the turret so I get more down than just the factory setting will get. Basically I loosen up the screw move dial from 100 to 600 yard setting and then tighten it back up. Now I can turn down to zero and then reset the turrett.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 17:00:54 (ZULU)


Doc King (not Don King! HA!), put me down as someone in the “20 MOA of optical taper” camp. With my stick, I took a centered Mark 4 M1 off, and put a centered Mark 4 M3 on. Everything, including rings, was kept the same, the only thing changed was the scope itself. All of a sudden, I had way too much elevation, and couldn’t zero inside 300 yards. Of course, this being my first Mk4M3, I found out the hard way about taking off the collar and doing the initial adjusting that way. Of course I set my mount up to hit well with the Mk4M1 at 1000, thus the problem, my tapered mount, a-la what Master Rick has to say on the matter. The “spec” taper IN the Mk4 M3 is supposed to be 20 MOA IIRC.

Good friend Michael, wa yu meen i s wetaded? Hey, I’m starting to get in a bad way for brass... you still not doing the reloading thing?

Sir Wes, you are officially “in the doghouse” with me. I was thinking I’d get my spanner back from you any day now... Have a guy wanting to take some pics of it for the DIY ’14 mount page, but it looks like the hook-up won’t be happening anyway (bad timing). And then I notice how you’re still working on it. Hmmmmm. Brain goes into operational mode (as opposed to cruise control mode or emergency mode), and I check the drawer I keep the spanner in. Not there. You must have it! Then I get to thinking and looking... and find it where it’s NOT supposed to be. Why is it you didn’t make some mention of “hey doofus, you forget to send me that?”. You have my little torque wrench, ‘cause I couldn’t find it? If not, drop a dime on my cell number, and I’ll go look harder. There will be a OOPS! package going off today (I wrote myself a post-it note!) towards Dallas. Still, you should have poked me.

Patron Mike, good to hear you’re up and around already! Way cool. Leave it to a football surgeon to know how to do these things right!

Major Santa, thanks for the heads-up, but please tell her it’s really not necessary. It would be great, and mighty tasty, but not necessary. Do this favor for me though, tell her its women like her that give me hope for my future in that regard. The FAR future, like another eleven years or so...

InSain the Sniper Gear Pimp (GRIN), if everyone thought like you and I do, there would be minimal reason for folks to think of ratguns ;-) Still, I can’t call you InSain on this one.

Master Rick, just poking at Moe, he deserves it. He’s just still upset over the first time we met... he was trying to get his rifle from the suburban to the shooting line, and I offered to walk him across the parking lot. He got all offended, and did the coolest smoking-tire peelout that I’ve ever seen in a wheelchair. Must have been going 2, maybe even 3 miles per hour, all the way yelling something at me about “when I was your age”, “your music is too loud” and “stay off my grass” ;-) Agreed on the BPT mounts though, never had a lick of problem with mine. Just too high was the only drawback in my not-so-humble opinion. If I’m going to use sights in a tube, I want there to be glass in it too LOL! Still, as far as a mount goes, it was top notch. You talking about rings though has me wondering if I’m not doing something wrong. Mine so far are fine, but you’re making me wonder which day I’ll wake up and find out that they’re NOT still fine. And I really hate lapping.

Patron Yote Bait, I was so tempted by your constant statements on that “other scope maker”, that I took the time and effort to investigate them more. At present time, I haven’t purchased anything from them, and that’s due strictly to their company personnel. After perusing their website pretty intensively, and finding NOTHING mentioned as far as a warranty (I looked due to what you’ve told me), I sent an e-mail to them asking for warranty specifics. It’s been about a month or so now, still no reply. In reality, I don’t know how much it matters. I could spend triple that amount, and be told “you wanted your mildots to be spaced 1 mil apart CTC? Well, you ordered it wrong” from another manufacturer...

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 17:42:27 (ZULU)


Bravo; It's been a while since I dealt with the factory (importer) there but still have never had to send one back. Someone called the other day and said they were really helpful  but that's not personal experience. We've tried the 18X jobs too as of now but they only make it to 800 yards at the 18 power position. Since the reticles are etched to the other plane you can reduce to 14X or so and make it to 1000 anyway with not compromise since the range finding aspect can be used at any power.  The 10X goes all the way to 1K with no fiddlin. The phone sex they had with most customers turned some away but the scopes are still holding up for us.  We've tried them on .300 Rum and WSM as well as the SUAM. I shoot the SAUM all the way to 1K and get excellent results shooting through that circle.  To date We've been though about all the models in more than one different scope. If you have a "need for speed" you can't beat em. With the application of Rick's "constant" for wind. You need not have anything written down to shoot in Sniper Applications and no need to take your eyes from the Target while you do the Mil Dot Master or a palm pilot. This is a really fine feature in bad light or night work. I can't make myself go back to the other ways, although it seems like a F-class 1000 yard weapon might do better to have the clicks since you know the ranges exactly. For hunting applications the unmentionable one  has no equal. Since I've not took  any trophy humans lately I can't tell about that aspect with authority but were I a mind too I'd have to reservations.  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 22:10:09 (ZULU)


Bravo,

No big deal on my being in the "dog house". I'm married...seldom out of it...;-)

Didn't want to "poke" you on the spanner. Figured you'ld get to it in your own time (Bravo time?). My two attempts at doing my own ended with broken spanners...

The rifle is still exhibiting the same tendency not to group well. I'm sure it is the mount. Took the MK3 6X off and shot open sights...no problem.

Man, that 6X is sure clear. JUST right for a rifle of this type. (Dig, Dig)

Once I have the spanner I'll do the bravo mod and all should be perfect. Now, all I have to do is get permission to use it at work! NOT LIKELY. DOC has us armed with mini-14's that are pretty beat up.

Will get your spanner and torque wrench back rapidly. I know you don't want to be without them.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, August 27, 2004, at 22:16:46 (ZULU)


Brogers,

You have to remember that not all 30mm scopes are created equal. There are quite a few on the market that merely hang 1" internals in a 30mm tube. A few of the big comanies were guilty of this for a while, I'm not sure if any have corrected it. Had a friend that worked for B----s for a while that told me this. He said they did it to "compete" with the euro scopes, and they just wanted to follow the trend. Just my .02, not stirring anything.

Lt.Chip,

SPEAK UP, SON! WE CAN'T HEAR YOUR QUESTION!

All,

Anyone interested in a Harley t-shirt from South Africa, I'll be there in Oct. Email me thru the roster mail soon!

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, August 27, 2004, at 22:36:32 (ZULU)


If you buy that other scope at Cabelas they warranty. They also sell a simular scope of their own brand with circles out to 500yrds for half the money. How does the glass compare to Loopy? I'm going deer hunting in western Nebraska around McCook in Nov. Currently have a Leupold European 3x9x50-30mm on a Browning Stainless Synthetic in 300WM. Will have the trigger adjusted soon, then start break in. Got 3 others to break in. SCLE#23, SHR5050, and a Win. in 300WM. I know Bill shoots in that country so I trust your judgement on a scope. I appreciate the info.

Fred Hartman Email this member See this member's profile
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 01:52:13 (ZULU)


BRAVO:

Was talking with Bruce today. We're at 52 sniper PLATOONS. Crazy ...

Some of the Marines have started calling me "The Godfather" ...

I kinda dig it ...

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 04:09:57 (ZULU)


Gents,

Trip down memory lane, tonight, as I started unpacking boxes we had stored from our move. Several sea bags with my "war gear" stowed in them. Clean and ready for the next deployment. Included was my desert camo gear. Had to remind myself that I'm 53, retired, overweight, and too out of shape to be doing Marine stuff. Still, my heart is there.

Opened one box and there was my Submarine Dolphins/Deep Submergence Dolphins and some old Trieste II (DSV-1) patches. Also, my diving insignia and other odd Navy stuff.

The real showstopper for me was the Stars and Stripes that flew over our command during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Damn near cried thinking about my career, men and women served with, dangers shared, and good times had. Those who have served and know where of I speak will understand. That tattered red, white, and blue flag has a tremendous value and meaning to me.

Came across my presentation flag from Trieste. It was the one we carried when we dove to 13,500 ft. Almost didn't come up, either. That's at least a two beer story...

This eve, as I sit here, I am truely blessed to have had the experiences and friends that have so enriched my life.

Mike, good to hear you're mobile, again. The arm next? Just what all did you manage to break/tear/sprain in your adventure...?

Have a matter to discuss with you, but will do that off the list. Need advice from a real sniper.

Brian, lordy! Fifty-two sniper units. You rate the title "Godfather".

Personally, "The miracle worker" fits well, too. Which reminds me...have to get a package off to my lads.

Guys, thanks for being there when I rant, get maudlin, or need advice. Perhaps that is what makes the list so special. We are not only list mates, but are friends as well.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 06:03:50 (ZULU)


I've been so busy catching fish or diving to spear fish every weekend this summer that I haven't fired a shot or lurked around here at all. Lost a friend named Randy Fry to a great white attack at my favorite dive spot a couple weeks ago in Ft. Bragg (nor cal coast). Great guy. I'm staying away from that spot for a little while. I'm pissed off at myself for allowing it to get in my head, but I'm going to wait a bit anyway.

Kevin: Sorry to hear about the guy who took you on your check ride. Do I remember correctly that one of your instructors was lost early in your training? I had to stop my flight training before completion because of the money:( I do miss it though. Aviation and the sea...just can't get enough.

I see that Mike is still having surgeries and healing like a miracle, Joe has come home (WELCOME BACK SIR) and Ken is gone (HOPE YOU COME BACK WELL ALSO), Dan still hasn't returned and Pete is still chasing piggies. Too bad Lito isn't here swinging his paper and talkin' scopes LOL. I missed this place.

To the other Marc:  A shooting partner of mine has an A.I. which I really like, even though it was 5K without glass. I have an A5 stocked "Rock" and I prefer it over the A.I.C.S. I just don't feel right with the thumbhole stock forcing me to pull my thumb out to the side to manipulate the bolt. Maybe I have a poor technique (no formal training) and maybe I could get used to it but right now I prefer my A5. Are you sure you want to put a 26" barrel and muzzle break on a .308? At least I think that's what you said. Mine has a #7 straight taper USMC contour at 25" (which seems a little long) and the recoil is very gentle.

MarcS Email this member See this member's profile
CV, CA, - Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 06:36:37 (ZULU)


Wes, knee is a an old repair from work injury that tore again. No great story there.  Bicep tear is less of a story.  Frankly no good story at all.  Just an old guy falling apart.  Knee felt really good yesterday 24 hours after surgery so good in fact it does not feel great today after too much use yesterday. Well back on the meds today.

Hopefully will be able to go out and shoot next week.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 18:25:21 (ZULU)



PJC,

I'll be looking at the webmaster mail now.  Sorry for only getting to it now, but haven't looked at mail for about three days now - family took a bit of preference over internet activities for a change.  Now 22H00, they're asleep, and I can put in about an hour before I need to catch some shut-eye as well.

Good to see some old names back again

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 21:08:23 (ZULU)


Hi this is my first message here I would just like to say HI to everyone and let everyone know a little about me. I am the son of Sarge and I am an E-4 in the US Army and I am looking to get back into shooting so if anyone would like to give me ideas of how to start back up let me know, I am open to any and all suggestions. Thanks for your help.

Spc, Blosser Shaun Email this member See this member's profile
Fort Drum, NY, USA - Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 21:33:18 (ZULU)



Re: Lost Airmen

Similar siutation happened to me. Got my SEL ticket/check ride from an aviator of the old school. Was an Army Air Corps instructor who trained cadets during WWII in Stearmans and AT6s. No telling how many thousands of hours he had logged.

Only a couple of months after I had earned my ticket, a fella here flew over to get his check ride from the same guy flying a twin Beech Baron. Sometime during the check ride, they were doing critical engine out stalls....and stalled it out. They were immediately caught in a flat spin and pancaked it in. Wasn't enough alitude to recover (low and slow...bad combination).

Since then I had learned that the Beech Baron has a CG that's a bit aft and in the right flight attitude, these types of stalls are conducive to being unrecoverable in this type of airframe. It seems that oscillating the engines MIGHT help to push the nose over. Since I never was a Baron driver....I really didn't care to find out.

--

On another note along the same subject, we were in Plainview, TX during an air show when a pilot who flew a combination of planes including a P-51, a high performance Pitts and a (then new) Italian twin engine Partenavia was demonstrating the new Partenavia. It resembled a Shrike Commander and I couldn't help but think that he was to some degree copying Bob Hoover's style of aerobatics and promotion of the Shrike. On his final manuever he had approached the exhibition area red-lining his plane (this was found out later) attempted to loop it and pulled both main wings off.  The plane yawed immediately and one of the wings caught the tail section, striking the elevator and forcing it into the maximum climb position, which forced the control yoke to do the same, striking the pilot in the chest. The plane inverted immediately and spun to the ground. They say he was dead before he hit the ground due to the blunt trauma to the chest.

--

Now back to M1A Country and how to mount that all illusive scope mount. I'm still working on mine. Doesn't want to square up with the barrel :(((

Maybe Bravo's got the remedy. <grin>

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 00:49:14 (ZULU)


Ref: Flyin'

My medical ran out on July 31 and I was late getting my packet into the FAA in OK City.  So this month I've been hanging around the airfield with the other "cockpit whores" talking about flying.  Today in the mail I got my form 8420-2 from the Civil Aeromedical folks.  I'm back in business.  It's time to get back up there. Hooah!

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 01:22:10 (ZULU)


Shaun; welcome to SC and we have opinions by the multitude. Give us an idea what kind of shooting you wanna do.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:03:26 (ZULU)



Got to agree with Jim T. re: limited time on range for most Army folks.

I've been lurking here for a while and Marcus was kind enough to let me register to post some questions.   Background:   I'm a 52 yr old female, civilian academic instructor at West Point, have been shooting handgun in the past, am starting with long-distance precision rifle.  Recently scored Expert with the M9 (Beretta 92F) on the Army's basic handgun proficiency test after not shooting for about 5 years, FWIW.  Am waiting for my pistol permit here, and will pick up with my Sig P229 9mm and occasionally my husband's Kimber.45 when I'm legal.

Two questions I'm hoping you'll bring your experience to bear on.  

1.  What core skills do you think are most important to master first in sniping?   In handguns for me, it was breath control and sight picture ... stance and grip came later.   What are the first and second things I need to get right from the beginning in order to progress well over time in sniping?

2.  I have a chance to bid on a used M24 (the Remington 700 .308 TWS).   This gun has not been shot very heavily, is in good condition and comes with just the rifle and scope (I'll have to add a bipod, case and sling myself).  Knowing y'all haven't seen or shot the weapon, roughly how much would you pay for it?   And, more importantly, is it a decent weapon for a beginner to start with?   In handguns, I started with the M9, moved to the Sig and will move up when I feel I'm as proficient with the Sig as I'm likely to get.

Comments / advice welcome.

RKB Email this member See this member's profile
NY, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 14:53:26 (ZULU)


Shaun...........

We won't hold it against you being Sarge's son! What kinda shootin you gonna be doin? Heck, best thing to do is get in your old man's safe and take your pick. A good dad wouldn't hesitate to help out the youngun!

Reloading adventures continue.......

I now have enough money invested in reloading equipment than I could have shot up in factory ammo for the next two years. Learning lessons my usual hard way. Many uselessly purchased items going up for sale on EBAY soon. One of these days I'll learn to listen to folks when they tell me what to buy. I still have yet to fire a Bolt-loaded round. Me thinks I would not make a good benchrester. I'm overly anal about tolerances and things working the way they are advertised to work. It's hard as hell to work with tolerences in the .001-.002 range when your equipment works in .000 +/- .005 range. Amazes me that just a little more or less pressure on the ram lever gets everything several thousandths out of whack. A little more or less pressure on the calipers will do the same thing. Pull the bullet comparator out of the comparator body, reinstall it and get different readings from the same loaded round. Pull the headspace gauge from the body, reinstall it and get different readings on shoulder setback. Resize a case check it, resize it again and get different measurements. I taught machine shop for a while and never had this many problems working in .000 tolerances. I now have a great deal more respect for what the one-holer bench rest folks go through to get this stuff right. I know I'll eventually get this stuff right but damn.......

Bolt out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 14:57:58 (ZULU)


Wes, re: stars and stripes, your post hit home.  I haven't served, but my husband did and I've supported .... have an Army civilian medal and a commander's certificate from the 3-star in Afghanistan, but the thing on my wall that means the most to me is the boxed flag that flew in the cockpit of an A-10 out of Kandahar.

Thanks for your service in the Corps - and a shout out of thanks to the rest of the SC who are serving now or did serve in the past.

RKB Email this member See this member's profile
NY, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 15:19:47 (ZULU)


RKB,

Some folks here may have a different idea as to what is most important, but my opinion is that consistency ranks high.  Do it the very same on every shot and in short order you'll be able to predict where your shot went without searching for it in the optics.  You'll be able to tell that you jerked the trigger, didn't breathe correctly, etc...it will also tell you when some piece of your equipment has failed you (rings loose, stock not torqued, the list is long).

Before guessing at a suggested bid on that M24, what does it have for optics?  The Remington systems are very good and will run for a long time if taken care of.

I am sure you'll have several guys pipe up here shortly.

VJ

Vaughn L Johnson Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 18:10:03 (ZULU)


Thanks for the tips, Vaughn.

The M24 I can bid on has a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 scope.  

RKB Email this member See this member's profile
NY, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 18:13:29 (ZULU)


Gents and Ladies,

RKB, Read your post and had to grin. Reminded me of where I was in 1984. Had just bought a Remington Varmint Spacial in .223 Remington. It's the gun that started me down the road to where I'm at, today. Had mounted a 3.5 X 10 Vari-X III on it. That rifle took it's share of Pennsylvania ground hogs and was .5 MOA capable after I had reset the trigger, free floated the barrel, and glass bedded it.

Your possible selection of the M24 is a good one. The platform is proven and accurate. Provided it is a real M24. Good starter rifles would be a Savage, Remington PSS or Varmint Special, and finally the Winchester Stealth. Caliber of choice is .308.

You can spend a LOT of money on gear. If you start with a solid rifle and scope you can build from there. As a side note, having the equipment does not make you a sniper. IMHO, only those who are trained by the military or law enforcement can claim the title. Me? I'm just a 53 year old retired Marine who enjoys challenging himself now and again.

Lots of real snipers on this list. Mike Miller(Undude), Brian Sain(Insane), Kent Gooch, Sarge, Rick B. and the list goes on.

Last advice I'll give is get trigger time and train. Three years ago I shot once a week, religiously. I've never been so accurate.

shooting will get you to read the wind, mirage, and range estimation, etc. Just my .02 worth...

Undude, get fixed and off the binnacle list. Glad to hear you are mending and this last operation fixed an old injury. Will be nice to have you "operational", again.

Time to put on the badge, again, and go work with the miscreants...

;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 18:53:06 (ZULU)



Doc - You are absolutely correct on the historical slippage of tech info at Loopie land.  :)  

Our cases of the weapon not making it to 800 meters is well documented by really frustrated students.  Our weapons, with mine included, did not make it to 800 meters and mine ended at 650 meters.  The reason may be that we shoot slower bullets, 2600 in the case of the 175s and the 168s.  Teh first time this happened, it was with 168s and was about 4 years ago whwn we first started playing with the M3LRs.

Brogers - The Marines tried welding their bases and gave up due to warpage.  I assumed it was warping the bases.  And you wouldn't be alluding to the great Shepard scope would you?  :P  :)

Pat - We are presently using 20 moa shims for our bases (Actually I am using two 10 moa shims) to get to 900 meters, which is about 1000 yards.  Still can't get to 1000 meters on my scope, it tops out.  We are getting our McCann rails tapered to ease this problem.

Kush - Followed your link and found the RAS you were talking about.  Couldn't find the thing on the first post and is the reason I asked about the McCann rail.  Guess I didn't look in the right place.

Michael - Ther has been a problem with the old Mark series of fixed power tens.  The problem came form the adaptation of the Varri-X III into the M3LRs

Bravo - No problems with the old age stuff.  Hedck I catch it all the time from my fellow instructors.  They think it is good fun to ask about my Depends and such.  And yes, the BPT was made high os that you had a BSZ for your irons as a back up.

RKB - My NCOICs daughter is a plebe at the Point right now.  She tried to get on the rifle team but the slots were already taken.  My advice is to begin working a solid, durable, stable prone position and know how to get a good natural point of aim.  All of this Before you fire.  If your weapon recoils off target then it recoiled in the direction of your natural point of aim.  Your weapon should slide straight back to your shoulder and straihgt back on target.  When you can get into postion each time the exact same way, yep consistency, then you have a bunch of it licked.  Once you get that down, then the rest comes easy.

Have fun kids!  :)

Hold hard Guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 19:06:30 (ZULU)


Bolt,

I am most certainly the least experienced hand-loader in the crowd, but the one element that works for me in re-loading, is the same one that that works in shooting... consistency. I've tried to do as many of the re-loading steps as consistantly as possible. I weigh each powder charge, probably going too far sometimes, but I know where my shots are going (if I don't screw up). Changes of any kind, to me, amount to a different loading lot number.

RKB,

I have good luck with the Remingtons I have but, I might trade the Sig in for a Glock.   :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 19:12:28 (ZULU)


Don't mean to be chatty or take up the bandwidth, but Wes' point about what makes a sniper was spot-on.    

I guess what I wanted to get at is that I'm interested in eventually learning to do more with the rifle than get tight groupings from a competition benchrest.   I hope that over time I can shoot accurately at long distances under a variety of conditions, just as I train to do at 25-35 meters with handguns.  But I'm no wanna-be re: the job our military and LE snipers train for and sometimes do.  And I am quite certain y'all won't find me in a ghillie suit anytime in the future [smile].  But you might find me on the range.

Okay, time to go back to reading/lurk mode .... I've used up my post quota for a couple of weeks.  Thanks for the welcome, guys.

RKB Email this member See this member's profile
NY, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 19:22:22 (ZULU)


Wes, thanks for the kind words, but I could not carry Rick's spotting scope.

Rick, have not had any trouble with MK4 M3's. as long as they have glass reticles. Always seem to zero at 100 yards with my 20 moa Badger bases.

On LR M3 running out of adjustment.  I have found this on AR/SPR type weapons, some where around 700 meters it stops, but all the elevation and five mils is darn close for 1000 meters with 77s from Black Hills. On on 20moa base Badger never had a problem to 1000 meters.

I think part of it may be bbl/velocity.  Most of the rounds I shoot are closer to 2700fps with 175s than 2600 as advertised.  That makes a difference for sure.  Heck if you run into some of the early 118LR watch out as the velocity may top 2800fps and turn a nice M14 into rubbish.

Mostly use 3.5-10 MK4 M3's with Premiere Reticle Generation Two reticles and the 1/2mil spacing makes for real accurate hold over and leads.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 21:00:04 (ZULU)


RKB:

Sounds like if your potential weapon purchase is in good shape its a good starting point (and ending point if it shoots well).  Now, for my .02.  First, I'm not a qualified sniper, LE or Mil, but I've been shooting since I turned 10 (near a half-century now), and reading since then.  I'm an NRA personal protection instructor and have been a Federal Law Enforcement firearms instructor.

First, you have to define "sniping".  Its often been said its easier to learn/teach shooting skills than fieldcraft skills...and its the latter that get you in range and keep you alive after you've made the shot.

So, if its military-type sniping, learn fieldcraft with at least as much dedication as you learn marksmanship... the best way I know of is professional instruction for the basics, then practice... and the best practice I know of is "sneaking" on deer.  If you can get within 25 yards or so to the whitetails in your country, starting from some distance, you're doing top notch fieldcraft.  Actually just seeing one of the things before they see you is a major achievment.

As for marksmanship, the fundamentals are well learned by instruction and competition.  NRA HiPower is good, but the upcoming F-Class competitions may be better...shot prone using a scope and a rest.  Most "sniper-type" weapons are adequate for this sort of game, and will teach reading field conditions such as wind, mirage, etc.

Then learn range estimation.  Actually this is an order of magnitude easier than learning to read wind, especially with mildots and laser rangefinders.  I use my rangefinder to practice range estimation... I look at something, guess the range (or mil-dot it) and then confirm (or deny) the guess with the rangefinder.

LawEnforcement sniping is a different game.  fieldcraft is still important, but much less than military.  But.. you will have to learn real precision marksmanship, like being able to hit an orange-size target (the medulla oblongata) that may be moving, behind an innocent and maybe behind glass, at relatively short range...and be able to endure the consequences of doing so in a different legal environment than warfare.

You'll hear a lot about precision shooting here and elsewhere, but there's precision and there's precision.  Any rifle with and adequate scope that's RELIABLE day in day out, and will group within one minute of angle any day is outstanding.  This isn't benchrest, but some of us shooters are anal enough that it might sound that way sometimes.

Long post, but simple questions sometimes aren't.  Lurk a lot... that's what I generally do, and learn something new everytime I read here.

And maybe something will be stirred up here that can enlighten us even more?

Steve

Steve Email this member See this member's profile
Butte, MT, 'Merica - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 21:30:11 (ZULU)


Mike you can carry my spotting scope anyday and I will carry yours when ever you  need it.  :)  Have seen two different M1As broken due to the higher velocities of the older M118LR.  It was a touch hoter and flew flatter then the new.  Liked the old better.

RKB - Agree with Steve on the F Class shooting.  It will force you to learn to read wind and shoot consistently.  Got you email and have forwarded it to my NCOIC.  Good luck with your shooting.  It is fun but, as you well know, it can also be frustrating on your off days.  :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 22:00:37 (ZULU)


Thanks, Rick and Steve -- I'll check out the F class.   It really helps to have a place to start!

Re: cadets at the Point, if any of y'all have kids, relatives or friends there, feel free to shoot me an email.   It's always great to make the connection and if they're underclassmen, in particular, sometimes it's useful to have another adult friend there who is NOT in the command chain.

RKB Email this member See this member's profile
NY, USA - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 22:10:34 (ZULU)


Rick; There's 3 things I'm not allowed to mention on SC. One is the afore adhered refered to optics, the infamous Ruuuu,well you know. And the other is the name of an individual whom I've agreed not to mention. :).

RKB; You asked for  #1 . Here's my choice.

Rule#1 Bury your ego. (not knowing you I don't know that you have any but if you do.... bury it, just to be sure it doesn't bury you. )

Now that's a hell of a thing to say to this person the first time we meet and greet.... but do consider it.

Rule #2  Never ask a bunch of ego maniacs what rule #1 is.

Rule #3  Buy that  M-24.

Rule #4  Learn to observe everything all the time whether in the field or on the road or at the commissary.

Rule#5  Learn the art of stalk and camoflauge and practice patience like it was rule#1

Then your ready to learn the rest. You sound like you've mastered the trigger already.

Rule#6 Hang out with us and read the archives when you have the time.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 22:16:11 (ZULU)



re: Bolt/reloading

Resizing the same case more than once will produce very different results the first/second time if you're using a conventional expander.

Alas, resizing different cases from the same mfgr and fired in the same rifle will also produce slightly different results from case to case.

Some of the things that you do in reloading can have a profound effect on accuracy.  Others when kept in reasonable tolerance only have a modest effect.  The tricky part is to identify which are the critical ones.

If I have understood my sources correctly, powder variance below 0.3 grains in .308W takes you into the same level of variance produced by unit to unit variation in primers.  Ditto for case weight variance below around 2.3 grains in .308Win.

The former means that if your volumetric powder measure doesn't vary your charge weight by more than 0.3 grains in .308Win, there is not

a compelling need to weigh every powder charge.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 23:33:24 (ZULU)


Rob - I SAID - "AINT WE DUE FOR A RIFLE RAFFLE?"

BTW  - it may be blasphemous buy my vote would be for a GA built gas gun with iron sights.  Sumin difrnt this time.

Better?

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 00:23:51 (ZULU)


Howdy Boltster! Hey, what Rod said. I've been playing games with guys lately (mostly Bro Two Shoes, Geoff, and the kittywhacker), because I can't get my "gold standard" brass anymore. Blah. What I came up with a long time ago in relation to Rod's powder statement is 100%. On the case weight stuff, that's why I purchased the brass I did. Now it looks like I'll play the weight sort game again (also blah). And, to go even farther, because your seater die contact on the ogive, don't expect to see a stack of rounds with the same OAL. As for myself, I like shooting much more than loading. Once those dies are set, unless something changes, I don't adjust dies for nada. There's several folks that have witnessed my "chuck and go" ammo do 1/3rd MOA. Maybe I could do better with more attention to details. But then I probably wouldn't be able to SHOOT that good, and my ego would be damaged -Patron Yote Bait, that's for you!

Patron Yote Bait..... on things you can't say, you just hit the top of the list! I won't go into the rest though, because I can't say them either LOL! Oh, I had an e-mail discussion with one of the lasses at Cabelas. She informed me that I could service a faulty unit through Cabelas for the first year after purchase, but then assured me that I would have lifetime service though the manufacturer, and that they gave a lifetime warranty. Now, if my memory serves (I don't bet on this, so here's the question!) didn't you say that there were some "interesting times" attempting to get them to warranty their failed scopes? I guessed from your last post on the subject that YOU might warranty my scope LOL!

RKB, here's a tidbit that maybe won't make it in the translation.... Master Rick made mention of the Natural Point Of Aim (NPOA from here on out). What I learned way back when in DCM, was what is called the rollover prone. You can get your NPOA that way, or as the grassbellies do, straight behind the stick. Patron Mike had to drill it out of me, but I'm glad he did. It's surprising how you set up a bit of muscle memory with just a few dozen cases of ammo LOL! All I'm saying here is that if you start off with good technique in prone, you'll have a little less effort later on. Other suggestions.... first, don't use that old century-before-last technology, the M-24. At least come up to, say, 1960, and get yourself a good '21 or '25 (GRIN). If not, and the '24 with optics and mounts costs comparable to, say, $2K, you ought to go with the Winchester, since a new Stealth with mounts and optics can be had for that, with change left over if you catch some sales. Now that ought to stir some stuff up! HA! And lastly, work your range from close to far. Like instructors figured out a LONG time ago, any mistake that can be made on the 600 yard line can be made on the 1000 INCH line. No glory, but it works. Freds Rifleman course would be an excellent example. He didn't develop it, but he's the one that keeps it running LOL! When you can keep your rounds at 1000 inches in a postage stamp (about), then you're doing well enough to strech the legs on your '24, but for the beginning it's a touch more informative to not concern yourself with windage. BTW, I used the Beretta in pistol competitions for a long time. Can be a good platform, and with one of Irv Stone's fitted barrels in there, a real tack driver. Beware however, IDPA has set the expert classification at roughly double that of the military. I wondered how I'd gone from expert to low sharpshooter, with no degredation in skills. The change of scale makes a tad of a difference ;-) Oh, and what Roger said about trading the Sig for a Glock? I, along with a stack of IDPA shooters will agree. I'll advocate the model 37. They didn't produce it as recommended over the last five or six years, but if they had, then Gaston would probably have felt compelled to name it the Bravo Special. Oh, and one other thing..... I'd get one of Patron Mikes slings, and work from prone some too. Bipods are good, but it's surprising how quick you lose position shooting when you've got a bipod and minimal motivation LOL.

Patron Mike, what's this about not carrying a spotting scope? I've been trying to get you to carry my gear for years now LOL! Get better quick!

MK4, my amigo, let me know how I can help. I know..... Wes can forward the kit to you, and save me postage ;-)

BKS, the Godfather, I like it! With 52 platoons, I'm betting your garage doesn't hold the RPG'd OOPS! truck though. You got a tactical warehouse? HA!

Master Rick, from a comment I got, I thought I'd make something outstandingly clear..... I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or to Revrund Moe of the Black Poodleshooter Order. I'll tease both of youse guys, but only because I hold you in the highest esteem. But I do reserve the right to tease Moe about the poodleshooters ;-) After all, his '25 came out prettier than mine, and I'm still a touch jealous. Now, is the 18" circle, or the 24" circle the high-speed-low-drag solution?

Sir Wes, you nailed that one on the head! I've hit plateaus in performance at a couple of times in my life that were PURELY self-induced. What I learned was that some (like me) have a difficult time transitioning from stick to stick to stick. Too many sticks, and a desire to shoot them all. An oldtimer let me in on that, so I married the '14, and it was surprising how quick I got better after that. Second off? When I "paid" myself with 50 round of pistol ammo every day I went to work -to be shot on the way home- I got better. A half hour a day on a range makes a BIG difference. To put it another way, we don't really THINK too much when we're driving to work. Why? 'Cause we do it all the time. Too much experience. If we spent as much time on a trigger as we do behind the wheel, then catching road-discarded coke cans with the passengers tires would be analogous to rapidfire 25 yard headshots, or 800 yard first round contacts! I drive more than I shoot :-( Oh, and thanks for the poke on the 6X ;-) I'm thinking I may have better luck getting a good sheep, shoop, shlope, oh, you know.

Shaun, welcome aboard! I hope Sarge warned you that this place is like a roach motel.... you check in, but don't check out! HA!

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 03:06:52 (ZULU)


SPC Blosser, RKB, and other NY shooters;

Go to this page on Savageshooters.com-

http://savageshooters.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1093197538

There is a group of long range shooters from NY state that travel to Bodines in PA. They're looking for more folks to join them. They even have loaner rifles for newbies.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 03:09:14 (ZULU)


Been watching the Olympics ...

How come those athletes do not put their hands over their hearts when they play the Star Spangled Banner? (Excluding Michael Phelps and a couple of others whose Mommas obviously raised them right).

Commentators talking about the immense pressure the athletes are under ... Hell, there isn't even anybody's life on the line.

Try sneaking a shot in beside a hostage's ear after a wind sprint or stemming your buddy's bleeding or giving CPR while the bullets are flying ... sheesh.

I'm proud of 'em (the athletes) but damn ... least they could do is put their hands over their hearts.

Pisses me off.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 03:39:01 (ZULU)


Bravo; I would favor the Cabela's option just in case you got something rotten right out of the box it would be a comfort and we've bought most all of ours through them.  I was trying to think how many we tried so far and lose count somewhere but the number we've had to send back is not hard. Out of the several P2's P1's we've tried we have returned 0.  Possibly someone could find something they wouldn't like and I've had a couple of guys try them and then decide they couldn't shoot as good due to all the clutter in the field only to go back later. One of our PO's here keeps a Weaver Mil Dot just in case he has to go to Sniper school or some other place they must have one. But after being in a few situations where the range could become critical and the speed of operations was a big factor he's using P2's on his main stick. His groups are more than fine. Actually I find that the circles at the longer ranges are better for me than cross sticks in conventional scopes and certainly as good as using mil dots for elevation without benefit of time to complete the math. Or light to see the MDM. In my humble experience it's not the best thing in the world to have to look away from the target and do math while things are happening that may be hard to pick up next time you peek in the hole. The mere fact that turrets aren't involved on long range shots is a great thing as far as I'm concerned. In the case of long multiple target work it's really nice to be able to put the windage in and have a exact zero point to come back too and more importantly to absolutely know that you did come back where you were not depending on turrets accuracy. Those MOA marks at the top and side are much helpful in doing the wind corrections when in a hurry. One of the guys dropped his scope while climbing down a wheat combine and knocked the zero off about 3 feet. We worried it back on and later found that the scope while taking a pretty good crease in the housing had not moved but the mount had been squashed or something.  I have no problems with using conventional Mil Dots but... I keep going back to the unmentionable one. Mainly cause I like to shoot em while they're there. I didn't invent this system but I wish I had. Several other scope makers are copying some of these features but apparently there is patent problems is using the same system. Having it right on the vertical plane like the herders do it can't be improved on by putting the windage marks off to the side or using the lower half to install extra tick marks but the intelligent use of such things is not a bad thing as far as I can see. I really believe inexperienced troops could be trained a lot faster with that system. Even if precision shooters with lots of experience might be able to outdo their scores with the unmentionable one I'd doubt that beginning Snipers could. Idunno!

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 04:20:45 (ZULU)


Don't know if you guys have seen this website but I thought you might like it. Lots of real video footage from the sandbox that you won't see on tv. Drag down to the iraquiwithrpg.wmv for starters.

http://vampirebat.com/war/

MarcS Email this member See this member's profile
CV, CA, - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 05:43:02 (ZULU)


Brian,

Agree 100%

MarcS Email this member See this member's profile
CV, CA, - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 05:45:41 (ZULU)


Thanks a bunch Patron Yote Bait! Looks like things will be difficult to decide for a while. Limited budget, unlimited wants. And I'll be in a bad way shortly for munitions in a couple of calibers. This'll probably get put off until the winter months, when the change-over will be more natural, and hopefully the lawyer bills will be a little less frequent. In all honesty, I think I'd druther the Sproingfeld system. Like a combination of the two. It's just that after all the remarks I've seen lately on the Sproingfeld scope quality (and what I've witnessed), I don't think I want to be a participant in that dance. The easy answer for me at this point would be to swap Sir Wes a 10 for a 6. The hard part is listening to his reply about monkeys, his butt, and some flying ;-)

BKS, I'd agree, but I don't watch TV. That crap rots your mind. Didn't notice. Some people, and the way they're raised.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 06:10:27 (ZULU)



Bolt:

   Regarding your "high TIR" ammo.  If, in spite of best efforts, the ammo isn't coming out as straight as you are hoping it to be....then consider getting yourself a Bersin Ammunition Measuring and Adjustment Device.  This thing works by putting the loaded round into a "body" which has a dial indicator installed so that TIR can be measured repeatably.  You then use an "adjustment screw" to tweak the round back to whatever the minimum possible TIR is for that round.  Getting near zero TIR is dependant on having perfectly uniform case necks (most likely turned).  On unturned necks the loaded round minimum TIR is heavily influenced by how uniform the brass neck wall thickness is.  It's not cheap but works as advertised on match ammo.  You don't have to be a reloader to use one of these things as it works on factory as well as reloaded ammo with equal effectiveness.   I've used the one I got recently and found that it allowed me to "salvage" the occasional 0.005-0.007 TIR round my reloading setup produces. One possible drawback (for four legged varmint chasers) is its variable effectiveness on "softer" varmint bullets.  Sometimes the varmint bullet gets "bent" instead of being repositioned or having the neck tweaked. Another minor bitch I have with mine is that the dial indicator is calibrated in 0.0004 per mark.

I respect an earlier remark regarding this device in which the author indicates discomfort with "bending" case necks.  Another take on this is to realize that resizing/ramming a bullet into a brass case probably does just this in any but the most anal (benchrest) of case prep and bullet seating operations.  I do not try straightening anything that exceeds 0.007 out and believe that any bending of the neck to get the round straight isn't likely to be any more detrimental to brass case neck life than is the resizing/seating procedure used during manufacture/reloading.

I've only done limited testing of "straighted" ammo but felt it made a noticeable difference in reducing "flyers" in the groups.  I cannot offer more definative test data at this time as my Mother is on her death bed and I'm off the range until this event is over.  If anyone else can offer more test information or commentary on this thing to BOLT please do so.

Meanwhile, here are some website addresses to look at for more info:

BERSIN of Switzerland www.bersin.info

I got mine though KINNEMAN'S Custom Products www.kinneman.com

Hope you find this useful.

PS: Maybe someone close to you has one of these things so you can try before you buy.

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
Bountiful, Utah, - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 12:25:54 (ZULU)


re: Reloading

Bravo has an excellent point, which I'll elaborate on.  The top competitors in centerfire non-benchrest matches (up to 1000 yd format) point out that once you get your ammunition to certain point, the folks who score high are the ones at the range practicing, not those spending most of their time at the reloading bench. I'll be the first to admit that it's easy to fixate on getting that last bit of accuracy out of ammunition. but you have to decide is reloading an end in itself, or a means to better long range marksmenship.

                           \\

TIR - one of the ugly issues lurking to bite the accuracy-oriented handloader.  I've read discussions that one of the easier way to inspect accuracy into your ammunition is to gage total indicated runout and sort finished ammunition accordingly.  Ideally you have your brass, press and die setup nailed down far enough that most/all of your production has small TIR to begin with.

One of the techniques to help reduce runout is to partially seat a projectile in the brass, rotate the brass 180 degrees and complete seating the projectile.  That way if it trying to start crooked,

the push from the opposite direction will tend to straighten it up.

The better dies have a floating seater, which will permit the projectile to naturally to find the center of the case mouth and cartridge center axis.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 14:32:31 (ZULU)


Bolt & Dennis..

  I have loaded more rounds than I care to remember. I have went from throwing them togeather to extreme match case preperations. I have found that biggest variable in accuracy is the "BRASS"!!!!

 I have cut primer pockets, turned necks, weighed an sorted cases, checked an sorted by neck an bullet runout, you name it I have tried it.

 

 I have always tired to keep all my match rounds to .003 or less for bullet runout. The rest I sort off an use for practice. In my 6.5 stuff I usually get nearly "0" runout on my bullets an necks. I don't know why but its just the way it has worked out. On my 308s I can go from "0" to as high as .007 an thats with Redding BR bushing dies an neck turned cases.

 The one thing I have found over the years, an maybe its different in benchrest shooting, but in tactical shooting with a tactical rifle (Around a .5 gun) I have found "NO" difference in groups shot with .007 ammo to groups shot with .000 "Match" ammo on a average.

 I have, honest to God, two three shot groups at home, shot with .005 to .007 ammo that measure 3.5" at 900yds with my 308. I have shot the match ammo side by side with the practice ammo an could tell no real differnce in groups. One time the match ammo was a better group the next time the practice ammo would shoot the better group.

 I think that what it boils down to is, in long range shooting you do what you can to keep loads as consistant as you can. But in reality when your shooting past 600yds the "OUTSIDE" conditions have a more profound affect on the bullets than the actual load does.

 I have found that the best thing to do is to find a load that has a minumum of vertical stringing an shoot that load alot. Practice so you can learn to over come the "Outside" factors. Another thing you need to do is quit testing loads at 100yds an start shooting them at 400 an 500yds. If they shoot well there they will shoot well at long ranges.

 Most of the time the bullet is seated into the lands anyway so how can a few thousands runout make any difference to start off with. Even if you have some jump your only talking runout on a bullet the thickness of a sheet of paper!! I find it hard to believe that it won't be running straight when it gets done traveling down 24" of match grade barrel!!!  Buy the best brass an dies, set them correctly, find a load with little vertical spread, go shoot, an don't worry about it anymore.  Do I still sort my loads after all this?? Hell yes!!! Does it make any difference?? Probably not. But that just shows you how screwed up I am.(Ha) Just my thoughts on it anyway.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 14:51:08 (ZULU)


RKB,  “I have a chance to bid on a used M24 (the Remington 700  .308 TWS).  This gun has not been shot very heavily, is in good condition and come with just the rifle and scope.”  “The M24 I can bid on has a Leupold Vari-X 3.5-10 scope.”

Someone may have already mentioned this, but if so I must have skipped over the answer.  If the Leupold is a one inch tube vs. a 30 mm tube the scope would be worth a lot less.  The one inch tube, in good condition, should be in the $300 or less range.  The 30mm tube, in good condition would be worth closer to $600

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 16:42:40 (ZULU)


Bill, step back from the Sheppard Scope. I have been reading the adds for twenty years or so and it just never catches on.  We need to get you in a good mildot program to save your sanity.

Bravo, you mean you where actually listening to me? LOL

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 16:43:11 (ZULU)


RKB and other NY shooters,

As Jody mentioned, there are a bunch of us NY shooter who make the trek down to Bodines, PA to shoot at 1k.  We have one shooter who comes from as far away as the Rome/Utica area.  We start out at Watkins Glen and go south thru Elmira, NY before crossing into PA, so we can meet anyone interested in joining us at either city.  The next shoot is on September 25.  Email me for additional info.

Don

Don K. Email this member See this member's profile
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 16:54:29 (ZULU)


Mike; I have had  m3's and MK4's I owned and tested and a couple of other brands of Mil dots. I can work the MD math in my head as fast as anybody you can drag up....but with all the respect I can muster I just have to tell you I remain unconvinced.  I don't shun the Mil Dots I just can't begin to equal the aforementioned in speed. If I've got all day and a good spotter the mil dot is fast enough in some tactical competetion and in most LE situations where there's plenty of time i don't doubt they can work with reasonable success.  My spotter is usually 100 yards away and working on his own target. He would be the first to tell you that we' gave the MD's a pretty good run out and what I say with our results is true. The guy with the Sheperd kills the dog in a very high percentage of the cases.  

This is kind of like the thing with the 1911's and the Glocks. Just because I favor one don't neccessarily mean I can't use the other. But you know that....:)

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 18:10:08 (ZULU)


Pat - I'm sure you're right about the zero taper.  I'd already began to reconsider in favor of something just a touch more stout than the factory Remington VS barrel I've got now.

Rick B. - I've got the H&S that came with the rifle from the factory, and I'm not impressed.  I had to get out the dremal and slowly & patiently work the bedding block down at the right points, to get the barrel to set in the center of the chanel.  That was the ONLY way it was going to set right.  The reason I'm opting for the A.I. isn't limited to the box magazine, either.  I'm a big fan of the stability that I believe would be provided by the full aluminum chassis.  That, and the location of the attach point of the Parker Hale bipod I intend to order with it.  Yes, it's an overpriced bipod, but what the hell.  I'm going all out on this rifle.  Also, the AICS 2 had the adjustable L.O.P. and comb, so it's just as vesitle as any others.  I can see where it could be a bit more bulky when humping it over any real distance, though.  Thank you for the feedback.

JR - Thanks for the input.  After additional research, and for versatility's sake, I think I'm now settling in on a 11.25 twist, still with a 26" barrel.  Also will throat for the 175SMK, so I can still use 168 as well.  I want to carry SOME energy to the 1K.  Plus, I've been told 168 will go sub-sonic at 1K.

Wes - I was actually hoping to get some feedback from a fellow Devil Dog.  What was your MOS?  A 1:10 was an option before I'd settled in on a throat depth for 175SMK.  I don't know that I want to deal with the drop of a 190 at the 1K mark.  I had previously started thinking about a 1:10 for a 175, but no one has come even close to recommending that as a good combo.  What are your thoughts on the AICS for a stock?  Most folks here don't seem to be too keen on them.

Marc S. - I'm sure about the brake.  Faster return, & follow-up shots and easier to keep natural point of aim.  The trigger is adj. 4-20 oz. too, so everything's gonna be set up for 1K.  I don't see that it would hamper anything, just a few extra coins.  What I'm trying to do here, is eliminate everything that can be blamed on the rifle, so all I need to concentrate on is my own lack of skill/practice.

Thanks again, to everyone, for the great feedback here, and offline.

Marc Email this member See this member's profile
Gilbert, AZ, USA - Monday, August 30, 2004, at 19:18:37 (ZULU)


Marc, with the '25, I use a 1:10 Kreiger heavy. Nothing down the tube so far but 175 SMKs. That combo works really well for me. I didn't invent it, the kittywhacker (as well as many others) recommended it to me. Including the guy that I'm assuming HAD to have built the stick that Missy Corn used to earn high woman / masters class at Perry just a couple of weeks ago, since she's married to him. He knows something. FWIW

Patron Mike, don't mistake failing efforts to overcome habit as not listening..... that stuff is hard! Yeah, I listened to you. And I came away lots better for it. Hope you're doing well!

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 19:39:13 (ZULU)


Gents, sorry for the OT post but need some help and I know there's some smart mofos here.  I need sources for 1:1 baluns for 75ohn co-ax that need to work from 3-30 MHz at less than 500w.  Not set in stone, since I'm not the antenna guru, but we're talking field expedient dipoles as the normal setup.  If that's not a good way to do business, let me know options.  Don't have time to do a detailed web search.  Can't get at the listed E-mail, please use MelendyKJ at 1mardiv dot usmc dot mil.  Thanks.  Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, August 30, 2004, at 22:57:15 (ZULU)



Ken M., I also emailed you this.   I *think* it matches your specs.   http://www.davisrf.com/ham1/baluns.htm W2DU 1:1 HF high power Balun, handles 6KW @ 1:1 SWR, 3-30 MHz,matches 50-75 ohms coax to 50-75 ohms balanced. W2DU-823 $27.50  

Useful feedback from you all about fundamentals.

So:   if you were going to recommend a setup for a beginner, what would it be guys?   Under $2k.   Haven't shot a rifle since I was a kid, but I'm a good learner, patient, willing to learn first things first, would rather wait / save for the right thing than buy something just because it's there and not have it be a weapon I can grow with for some time.   So give me the benefit of your experience - what specific gun, scope etc. etc. should I get?  

HDR, the Leupold on the used M-24 is a 1" tube.  Their minimum bid is only $400 for the scope & rifle (no sling, bipod or case), but a firstie cadet in my classes who's on the combat weapons team assures me the gun has been maintained well and not shot heavily.  The team is selling a number of weapons, mostly Glocks, a few heavily used 1911s and this rifle.

Bravo, I hear you on the M9 qualification vs. IDPA.   I really was surprised to score as well as I did, given that (apart from one orientation shoot a few days before) I hadn't shot a pistol in more than 5 yrs.   I confess, it's even less impressive than it seems, though:   we had to use Army guns & the one I got had 250+ rounds through it without cleaning before I got to shoot.   The scorers suggested they would not view it amiss if I took the first shot at each table single action instead of double as things were a bit caked up.   So I cheerfully did and got a little better score, being a civilian for whom the score didn't count beyond impressing my cadets a little and maybe influencing the Dean to let my husband (retired USAF) and me join the handful of faculty next time they send a group to Baghdad Univ. again.   We respectfully petitioned the General to let us go with the group last Jan, but it was green suits only that time.   At least when it comes up again I'll have the M9 qual in my record.  I'm working on passing the APFT but at 52 I have ... ahem ... a bunch of training to do before I can pass it even at the lower standard for middleaged women.  Heh.   Doubt they'll ever let us go over, but I keep chipping away .... have a 70 yr old civilian friend who's been working in the Green Zone and elsewhere in Iraq since last Nov.  He was with the CPA rather than uniformed, though.

Not a long distance rifle thing, but I got my pistol permit interview date today, finally.   Mid October for the interview.    Don't know how long for a decision afterwards.   Sigh.   It would be nice to start with some rifle work in the meanwhile!

RKB Email this member See this member's profile
NY, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 00:24:40 (ZULU)


Thanks, but I got the Davis RF site off a hasty web search.  I'm looking for guys who have used the gear IRL.  I know Lito and a few others are serious into the ham radio scene.  S/F...Ken M

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Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 00:34:01 (ZULU)


KenM:

 If you have a hard time finding that balun you are looking for - make each end of your dipole droop (aka an inverted vee) --- this will make the input impedance right around 50 ohms... There are alot more 50 ohm feedlines, etc available.......

Take care all

so - we are wanting a riffle raffle - for say an iron sighted AR10...????...

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 00:59:13 (ZULU)


Dirty Steve checking in cause I smelled a Rifle Raffle...

Been absent and lurking when I can due to my wife being home on emergency leave from the sand box.

Thinking of getting a Les Baer Unlimtited PPC gun in 9 mm for NRA Action Shooting. Maybe using it as a platform for an unlimited gun in the future.

Dirty Steve, Out...

Dirty Steve Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, TX, USA>>>Get Us Out Of The UN!!!! - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 01:45:22 (ZULU)


>>>>MK4, my amigo, let me know how I can help. I know..... Wes can forward the kit to you, and save me postage ;-)<<<<<

Bravo,

I got as far as getting it mounted. A friend that runs the local hardware store just happened to have a spanner made-to-order (I see how that part works now :). Not sure how much tension or torque to put on it though. Jest eye-balling it after tightening everything down, the mount doesn't look to line up with the barrel (maybe not level either). Looking through the iron sights, the front of the mount looks to be a shade to the left of center.

It needs the Bravo magic touch. <grin>

Hit me offline if you want.

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 02:23:47 (ZULU)


Here's an auction going for adoptasniper ... Pretty nice firearms.

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/sniper.htm

Copy/paste to browser.

BK

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 02:56:30 (ZULU)


Brogers - I'll respect your agreements, but that is what makes "discussions" so much fun.  Also agree with your rule number 1 and 2.  :)

Bravo - You have no need to apolgize nor clarify. I was in no way offended and hope none of my writings conveyed that meaning.  I enjoy the comradarie of digs here and ther.  I have certainly given you few in the past and hope to do so again in the future.

Marc - The aluminum bedding block on the H&S goes from the forestock into the pistol grip of the stock.  On the Parker Hale, I have found them to be loose and floppy when shooting.  They give a feeling of instability due to their inability to tighten down for firing.  The AI stock also drives me crazy, which is a very short drive as some here know, due to the required thumb placement.  It is way too low for me in most positions.  These are of course only my opinions.  Good luck in your purchase.  :)  168 will go sub sonic at less then 800 meters ot about 900 yards if loaded slow.  It will stay sonic at past 1000 meters if loaded hot.  Muzzle breaks may peeve the shooter to your left and right.  They can put out one heck of a signature.  As far as staying on natural point of aim, that is a function of your position and not the muzzle break.  If you are shooting 308 then the recoil is mild enough for a rapid follow on shot anyway.

Well time to retire for the night.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick

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Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 04:08:26 (ZULU)



50 ohm balanced to 50 ohm unbalanced and 75 ohm balanced to 75 ohm unbalanced units are the same and interchangeable when constructed with ferrite cores. Just thought I'd mention that. When a dipole is flat and folded the 300 ohm impedence is usually changed by a 4 to 1 balun to 75 ohms and fed with a line of that impedence whether it be a twin pair or wires or a coax cable is determined by the construction. Actually the conditions that determine the impedence of a dipole antenna at HF frequencies are so varied in most practical installations that one need not concern himself with the differing impedences in the balun which is only a transformation from one balanced impedence to unbalanced for concentric (coax line). The antenna is reactive at any frequency other than the exact resonant one anyway so unless only one frequency is involved a set of compromise exists in almost every case that exceeds the difference of the baluns. NO appreciable power loss is realized in the common installation. The dropping of the ends of the dipole to the v configuration does indeed usually lower the impedence but surrounding objects and ground conditions still determine the true impedence when it's close to the ground. yada yada.  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 04:16:43 (ZULU)


Gents, any of you loading for 338 Lapua or 338 RUM use the Fed 210m primer or do you have to use a magnum cap?   Just got my 338 RUM finished and was about to load some stuff for it and was wondering about primer selection.  

I use the standard 210M on my 300 WM and it does great, just wonder if it's hot enough for 80-90ish grains of powder this beast takes.  

Any help appreciated.  

Thanks.

Joe

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Turlock, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 04:46:40 (ZULU)


RKB:  What rifle/scope for the money?

Savage Tactical with the "accutrigger"...308 if you want to use mil. ammo.  I'd recommend 30-06 if not.  Its a lot easier to maintain adequate velocity with the '06 at 1000k yards with tolerable recoil, but the 308 will do it with a bit less recoil.  The Stock isn't any too shiny, but I've had two savages...one 223 laminated heavy barrel long action that out of the box would do less than 1/2 MOA, and a 308 "rubber stock" tactical that would go well under 1 MOA without even half trying.

Spend the rest of your $$ on the best mount/rings (Badger) and scope you can get for it.  Leupold is great, as is IOR Valdada (Better glass than Leupold IMHO, but if warrenty work is ever needed Idunno).  Save out a few hundred $$ for match ammo (Federal 175 if 308, or Black Hills 180 or 190 if '06).

Then go shoot it all up with some folks that really know longrange shooting.... Guarantee you'll do better than most folks that spend really big bucks on rifles that are maybe (just maybe) 1/2 MOA more accurate than the Savage, and then don't shoot the damn things!

Good luck and hold hard!

Steve Email this member See this member's profile
Butte, Montana, America - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 04:48:16 (ZULU)


RKB,

I have a friend at the Point who can help with the PT test. Head up to the hand to hand/cqb building and ask for Jason Winkle. He's good people and a first class trainer.

John

John Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 12:27:56 (ZULU)


Response to off line inquiry if you will permit.

The tick marks at the edge of the unmentionable scope are 1 MOA at 100 yards spacing and work the same at all scope powers.

For range finding it works like this.

known target size in inches/# of 1MOA spaces it takes to cover itX100=range in yards.

eg. target is 36" high or wide and shooter observes it takes 6 marks to cover it.

36/6=6*100 or the target is at 600 yards.

The same principle is used in range finding surveying instruments. As the observer will note the equation is similar to mildot computations but faster for most people.

(size of target in inches*1000 divided by # of mil dots to cover it. =range to target in yards.)

Try it and see if it's easier for you.

These ticks can also be used where MOA elevation is known or windage needs to be compensated quickly. I do not advocate changing to Sheperd systems for a gain in accuracy. But for beginning or occasional use they are simplier to learn and use. Far easier under stress and quicker to the first shot. Windage can also be computed with the range circles and no tapered base is ever needed.  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 14:09:19 (ZULU)


RKB,  If you can get the rifle and scope for $400 I would buy it in a heart beat.  Just the action is worth $300 to $350 around here.  You would be getting the scope free.

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 14:10:17 (ZULU)


Wow, some of you post pretty religeously, don't you?

Rick - The stability I was talking about was with reference to the chassis on the A.I. not the Parker Hale.  I know if I don't end up liking the Parker-Hale that the A.I. also takes Harris, etc.  Maybe just to relieve some of my cost, I'll at least give the H&S a try before I spend the $$$ on the A.I.  As for thumb position, that was also mentioned by MarcS the other day.  I'll certainly take that advice into consideration, but I actually tend to prefer more of a pistol grip even in the prone.  There again, that could be just a semi-auto thing.

Bravo - Wow, the more feedback I get on twist rate, the more answers I get back.  I would seem that everyone has a different recommendation.  I don't find this too surprising.  I figured going into it, that I'd probably have to go through a few barrels, and figure out what works best with some experience.  I'm taking all advice into consideration, but I think I'll still START with the 1:11.25 since it seems to be a good all-arounder that can still make 1K with the 175SMK.

Thanks to all!

Marc

Marc Email this member See this member's profile
Gilbert, AZ, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 14:15:23 (ZULU)



Mike; your charge that Sheperds have never caught on haunted me to reply with what I have discovered on the subject.

there are reasons...

1. The appearance of the housing is just not cool by today's standards. It looks old fashioned.

2. The use of some of the features is not appreciated fully without actually using one.

3. The Reticle is specialized to a particular caliber and a particular load and that turns off many buyers. (actually the P2 reticle is much closer to tracking the .308 168 or 175 with common Varget loadings than most of the range turret knobs inserts that Leupold has furnished for the M-3.) The inabiliity to adjust for varying loads in the same caliber leads to some frustration. Seems like the load that works best in a particular rifle is always just a little off the reticle design for best drop to a particular circle.

(What is missing here is the fact that for longer ranges the turret can be adjusted as easily as any other and only requires a few clicks to exact zero. The truth is most Shep reticles are within 1 MOA out to 500 easily and most do 700 with no pain. )

4. MOst shooters either don't want to learn to use something new or don't think the one shot zero is any importance preferring to waste a few more rounds to accomplish  the task when 2 or 3 rounds would do.

5. Some don't realize how stable and anti parallax the system is when using the back up cross hair as a alignment tool unless they actually own and shoot one. Parallax can be eliminated by use of the second cross hair in alignment for the shot even when the forward objective has not been adjusted to range.

6.$599 is a pretty substantial price for something you don't use except on one or two caliber's without compromise of having to adjust your load to fit the cross hair.

7. Until recently the company has been unresponsive or condecending in their attitude to user complaints or questions. (I do believe that has changed due to some of the remarks made here on SC).  They just simply didn't realize how they were perceived.

8. The resolution of the optics just doesn't jump out at you due to the clutter in the scope screen. (Actually the resolution is much better than perceived.

9. Early models did exhibit some breakage and were slow to get warranty service or so I'm told but that has not been my experience.

Mil Dot scopes were all but non existant in hunting circles and generally unknown to the gun crowd that now contitutes the buying force (much greater than LE purchases or probably even Military applications) behind the importation and manufacture of so many new models. But when the place called Sniper Country and others started using them in the cool applications they came into light.

But your charge is not unwarranted. You would have thought the scopes would be more popular.

10. Gun dealers make little effort to push them due to very low mark up allowed by the importer. Typical dealer mark up is 10% to full price and that price is seldom negotiable with the dealer adding to a lower than normal resale for  a good scope aggrivated by the fact that it's caliber or at least bal coeficient selective.

Sorry guys if you don't think the subject warrants all this space but it's something that interests me as much as John Kerry's war record. So there.

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Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 15:16:11 (ZULU)


Marc,

  I have an HS Precision stock on my .308 and like it very much. The builder bedded the reciever and with the adjustable cheek rest and pull, I get a very comfortable and repeatable cheek weld.

  Some say that bedding was unnecessary but the builder and a high ranking FBI weapons training instructor on the west (left) coast did some testing and found that it did make a difference.

  Just something to think about.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Vardaman, MS, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 15:51:52 (ZULU)


Bill, any system can be made to work, if you believe in it, learn whats needed, take advantage of the plus's and work around the not so good protions.  Certainly the Shepard works but in my opinion, for the 2 cents thats worth, the Mildot has a bigger advantage across the board than the Sheppard.  I am not a fan of caliber specific reticles and no BDC device works across the baord with 100% accuracy 100% of the time.  To say this or that tracks closer does not work because I can take a 180 30-06 BDC and have it work equally well with 175s at 2700fps and 175s at 2625fps, depending on the elevation and temp of the enviornment.

This is not an attack on you at all.  I know you love that darn scope and would not want you pitted against me with it, no more than I would want a Palma Team Member with an RPA sited rifle after me.  The systems may not be best for snipers, as I see it, but they are certainly capable of hits.

Take care my friend.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 15:55:26 (ZULU)


Mk4;

Is this an ARMS #18 you're speaking of?

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
Merced, Ca., usa - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 18:37:19 (ZULU)



Looking for functional differences between the remington LTR in .223 and a Rem 700 VS in same caliber.  Is the LTR stock bedded or alum bed block lined?  Are there twist or chambering differences?  Can either be converted using the HS detachable mag?

Further...is there a better solution out there for building a solid but lightweight tactical rig in .223 ... do the quadlite recievers with DM offer a significant benefit in rigidity for this caliber...is it relevent at all?  What about the win 70s... any hidden features in the smaller bolt face rigs?

If going with a custom barrel, what would be the best reamer and what rifling approach (5R?) is going to offer the best performance using heavy rounds like the 77 or 80 gr sierra...is 1:8 adequate in a 22" barrel or should I go tighter?  

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:06:15 (ZULU)


Thanks, Roger.  I was actually not going to BUY another H&S stock, regardless.  I was talking about the one that came with the rifle.  If I'm going to spend more money, it's down to the A.I. vs. the McBros. A5.  I'm still leaning toward the A.I.

I still might have to go up to McMillan & check out there stocks.  If anyone is from the Phoenix area, do you know if they have a store front?

Anyone out there planning to get one of the new side-focus Springfield scopes when they're finally available?  I'm going that route, if they ever become avail.

-Marc

Marc Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:08:53 (ZULU)



Mike; I think I know where you are coming from. I don't have any heartburn with the Mil Dots. Where I got in trouble  here was recommending the Shep to some guy who said he was wanting a scope that was easy to use for a Small Sheriff's department. I reasoned they would be better off with something simpler than Mil Dots having been around some small town departments I know they just don't have the time and funds to dedicate to maximum Sniper programs.  I normally can hold 1/2 MOA with the Shep system at  ranges to a thousand when the rifle does it's job with the Shep system. The main problem I've found is shooting the 100 yard circle when the range should be some other circle. Seems like a stupid thing to do but it usually occurs when I'm reading wind or shooting unexpected targets that just pop up suddenly. Other than that I've not found much shortcomings over the M3 and the 4.5X14 Leupy tactical I liked the best of all those I've used. Well there was the high dollar MKIV and the glass was superb as well as everything else on it but there again small departments just won't go the bucks for something they doubt they'll ever have to use. The 4.5x14 was the Mil Dot we tested for a couple of years hunting dogs on the plains. When we got a long range shot off the road about all I ever heard was my partners shot while I was computing the distance.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:16:01 (ZULU)


Gents,

Just some feed back from the left coast...OK, static!

Mark, I have a 1:11.25" Kreiger barrel on my M25. Shoots 168's and 175's nicely. For a bolt gun I'd go 1:10" for the ability to shoot 190's...DO NOT shoot 190's or heavier in your M1A/M14.

Shephard Scopes. Have a passing familiarity with them. Liked what Undude said about using them. If it works use it! Obviously it fits the bill, for you. Have a German Shepard...can I join the conversation?

Brogers, see above. One of my shooting compadres has a Shephard and curses every time he uses it. He has never taken the time to master the system. Shooter induced problems...

Marc, I use McMillan stocks on all my serious rifles. Have NEVER had a problem. The Army uses H-S precision and the aluminum block. Seems to work for them. Any system can fail. My preference is a fully bedded action. Keep the aluminum for beer cans...;-)

Of the work.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:25:20 (ZULU)


Not being a fan of spotting scopes due to all the various configurations needed to stabilize one to take advantage of the higher power. I mounted my Nikon 20-45X60mm on a rifle stock. The bipod can be used prone and out the vehicle window or even standing the high power function becomes much more usable mounted in the shoulder stock. The sling on the old stock can be utilized to carry it along with whatever else you have to move with. I knew a Sheep hunter who carried his Spotting scope in a PVC pipe with swivels mounted on it and it worked but the time to deploy was a problem when a Bighorn was headed over the hill. Anyway the stability has to be seen to be realized compared to other methods one might employ and it's transportation isn't too difficult . Just though someone might want to try it.

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Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:41:51 (ZULU)



Yo folks,

Anyone here have any experience with HS's STR, the short forend version of the HTR?  Looking at it for application here in Scotland, short forend, short barrel with reflex suppressor that swallows a lot of barrel..

Marc Mang,

If you want a more specific twist rate, youse need to give more specifics on what you intend to feed the 308...I could write reams of recommended twist rates for the 308...

Yote,

That's what weve done with our spotters back home, bigfoot bro in law has his mounted on cutoff wood stock, and I have mine on a reject cutoff HS...handy they is, specially in the truck...

JR

 

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Scotland, just east of MY island - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:50:21 (ZULU)


Jim,

How far out are you wanting to take the 223?  If it's 600 or in, an 8 twist in 22" will work fine. Well, AR's go to 1K with 20" 8 twists.  If you want to go to 1K, a 30" 8 twist will work better, but you still need to be on your wind calls.

The recoil of a 223 is so lite, and the charge so small, I don't think you'll see any differnet between any of the actions mensioned if properly bedded.  Hell, the most accurate out of box 223's I've ever seen are the savage tac's. They're unbeliveable.

The LTR stock has the same aluminum block all the other HS civilian stocks have.

I THINK, not sure, that the HS mags will workie fine with 223.  I know they work on LTR's, as I shoot with a gent who'd one it to his but it's 308win.

For good 223 reamers, look to the highpower community.  They've been using 223 to 600 and 1000 for years now, in AR's, so they pretty much have it worked out.  If you want to go with 90gr VLD's then you'll need a special reamer.

Go with a Border barrel.  My 6 and 5 grooves all shoot well.

FatBoy...

Chris Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 19:58:46 (ZULU)



Chris, I was thinking of a rig for out to maybe 500-600 yards.  There isn't a range in my area that goes past that and I wanted to build something REALLY light, thus the no-recoil round.

Is there a McMillan stock that runs as light and handy as the LTR stock?  I really like the new sling cups offered on the Mac stocks... what a fantastic idea...too bad you can't get them installed on the HS stocks..

Is there a standard barrel profile available (from border / JR?) that comes close to the LTR profile or is that a unique animal to Rem?

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 20:40:55 (ZULU)


Jim,

>>>Is there a standard barrel profile available (from border / JR?) that comes close to the LTR profile or is that a unique animal to Rem?

Unique profile, what's that?  I forget the muzzle dia of the LTR, but it's no problemo, most makers will have the popular Remington contours available...I don't have that particular contour on file, haven't had a call for it....but that's no problem, I'd just write the program for the NC and name it MEDIC...ha..Hell we have a fatboy and fatboy slim file....

You might want to go a bit tighter with the 80's if you plan on going the JLK route, I know you said Sierra, but you'll soon learn...at least 7.7" twist with those weights if you go custom barrel...if you push 90's you'll probably need about 6.8" twist, maybe 7 twist, in your bolt gun..

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Langholm, Scotland, just east of MY island - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 21:09:38 (ZULU)



Had 2 Sproingfields crash on guys in the last class. You could tap on the side of the scope body and watch the reticle spin round and round in both of them.

Had to overnight 2 Nightforces from George to get the guys back on line.

I'd avoid a Sproingfield scope like a chick with the clap ...

Well, in my case ... even MORE than a chick with the clap.

BK

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Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 22:25:21 (ZULU)


RKB:

Steve said: "Savage Tactical with the "accutrigger"...308 if you want to use mil. ammo.  I'd recommend 30-06 if not.  Its a lot easier to maintain adequate velocity with the '06 at 1000k yards with tolerable recoil, but the 308 will do it with a bit less recoil.  The Stock isn't any too shiny, but I've had two savages...one 223 laminated heavy barrel long action that out of the box would do less than 1/2 MOA, and a 308 "rubber stock" tactical that would go well under 1 MOA without even half trying.

Spend the rest of your $$ on the best mount/rings (Badger) and scope you can get for it.  Leupold is great, as is IOR Valdada (Better glass than Leupold IMHO, but if warrenty work is ever needed Idunno).  Save out a few hundred $$ for match ammo (Federal 175 if 308, or Black Hills 180 or 190 if '06).

Then go shoot it all up with some folks that really know longrange shooting.... Guarantee you'll do better than most folks that spend really big bucks on rifles that are maybe (just maybe) 1/2 MOA more accurate than the Savage, and then don't shoot the damn things!"

If money is tight the 10FP in 308 would not be a bad option. I bought one this spring. The tupperware stock sucks, I went with a B&C Duramax, (about $85 at Brownells) not a McMillan but better than what it came with. I've shot some groups in the .3" range at 100 yards. I've only taken it to 500 and it is doing good so far. I will be shooting out to 1000 this fall, we'll see how it does. I added a Farrell 20moa base, Tactical precision rings and a Sightron 4x16x42AO mildot scope(I know, not a Leupold, but the optics are good and the turrets track perfect) Total cost - $1025 (don't tell my wife) It's a good system and will work until I can afford something better. Heck I used it at our state LE convention for the sniper competition and took 1st place. Guy next to me on the line was shooting an HS precision, he could not believe I kicked his butt with that cheap ugly savage. heh heh.

Brogers: I too mounted a spotter on a rifle stock, finally found a use for those cheap tupperware savage stocks,LOL, makes a good platform for the scope. If you can prone out with a bipod it is rock solid.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp Email this member See this member's profile
Jamestown, ND, USA - Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 22:29:44 (ZULU)