Sniper Country Duty Roster

August 06, 2000 - August 13, 2000

Matt: mine are 0.336 and 0.338, but I use the 0.336 for my brass. Of course, the brass neck thickness will determine which one you want to use, so that might be a consideration ;-)

Jeff: wasn't the 6.5-06 THE loved lady cartridge of the benchrest crowd back in the early 60's? As for me, I've been working REALLY hard to NOT work up a 260. I LOVE the 6.5 Swede though, and it was a preferred 1000 yarder in it's day.

'Lito: worried about barrel paint?!? Seems like some joker told me that you didn't need a painted rifle, real men did sniper competitions wearing bluejeans and carrying stainless steel barrels ;-)

Brack: I think the consensus was that the bipod I had was an easier set up. It's a Harris S-BRM, the swivelling notched leg one. The legs eject out when you pust the button, and snap into notches so you don't have to tighten anything down. The swivel is adjustable for tension, and I found it to be worth it's weight. Before I do too much more though, I'm gonna get the medium height one too, for quick change for matching terain areas. That being said, the non-notch leg one has more swing than mine, the ONLY draw back in my opinion.

Mike: missed the June pistol shoot for the class, missed last month for "family time". Today I just plain sucked. It's your fault, you didn't print up a disclaimer saying that learning to shoot at long range will erode my pistol skills! It MUST have been that and not the fact I haven't shot in 3 months. Right? What did you call it, consumable skills?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:09:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.218)

As far as to swivel or not to swivel, I vote for not. I used to have one and it moved to much and you can't really lock it down too good. I use the LM version that has notched legs and springs out which is better than the ones that spring in and you have to turn the knob to keep it from going down. You can adjust the notched legs pretty good to compensate for uneven ground. Check them out before you get the swivel.
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:24:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.83)
Bravo...
Blue jeans and stainless steel... why don'cha tell 'em about me falling of the cliff again, why don'cha... Jeez, I don't get no respect on this site.
This year's gun is Teflon BLACK, with cammie jammies for West VA... (mostly green, with thorns, and lots'a sheep wool ;)

Have you shot the M25 out to full range yet. Lemme know when you do.
And did you get the Doogie box yet ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Rob...

The swivel bi-pod has a friction adjustment on it, and you can set it really firm, even tight enuff so the gun will stay upright on the ground... it's the big knurled nut. Mine took pliers to tighten, but it's great now... won't flop, and won't move, unless I make it move, then it holds the adjustment.
When I set it down, and set it for the bubble, it stays there for the shot, even if I let loose on the gun for some reason.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 00:33:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Lito, Mine had that to but didn't tighten good enough unless like you said I cranked down on it with pliers and then it sometimes shot loose. Personally I don't want something on there that needs pliers to change it. I like to keep all my gear as KISS as possible. The LM model adjsuts just fine for any slope I've come across yet. I guess it's jus a personal feel.

On a different note, someone said a few days back you might be from CT, are you? Because that's where I hail from.
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:04:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.84)

Paint on barrels. USMC teaches to do it and the user manual for the M40A1 showed you how to do it.

Harris swivel bipod is the way to go. Just be sure to crank on the tension screw that controls the tilt so you dont get flop.

3rd Recon's STA platoon? Since when did a recon unit have a STA? Never been in a Recon unit, but been in a STA, and I never heard of a Recon STA.

Out here
 

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:04:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.139)

Painting:

I did it last year... thought it was neat, my teamie (Pablito) laughed quite abit. Decided to strip that paint off .... hated it...but got it clean... I won't ever paint one again. I figured out why he was laughing.
I will use or make up some kind of 'pajamas' and cover it that way.

Ken :)

Ken <Dont.Paint.It@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:19:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Gooch,
Attached to 3rd Recon from 3/8 in spring-summer 1987. "C" Force was spending too much time in the phillipines and the Gulf. I know what you're saying. 8th Marine Regiment is 2nd MARDIV. In 1987 we did a flip and ended up on Camp Schwab. 6 month tour under Lt Col Byce and Col. Sheehan (now a MajGen I believe). He put 8th Marines into MAUSOC (now MEUSOC), the first Battalion to do so was ours, to my recollection. Because of all of this, 3rd RECON attached a STA. I've also heard (but do not know) that even 3rd ANGLICO had a squad of scout snipers attached. I believe that Col. Sheehan thought the Phillipines would get a little hotter than it did. Also, Operation Omaha was going ahead as planned (later to be cancelled).

Question: Has anyone used accelerator rounds (or similar) to decent effect? If so, let me know. Also, did you use a faster powder? What kind of trajectory vice the standard .308?

Thanks! Semper Fi!
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:36:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.150.120)

3rd Recon had no STA thast I know of, only sniper teams used in the Reconnaissance & Surveillance teams that were in support of the DAP, at least that was what they had when Imwas there and what the Batallion used until the disband of 3rd in 1993.

Celer, Silens, Mortalis! "Never have so few been so foul to so many"

Semper Fi.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.125)

Does anyone have any experience with the Steyr SBS Tactical rifle? I really like the way it fits my hand and the trigger is very sweet. The 10 round detachable mag is also very neat. I wonder if I should get the 20" or 26" version?

Thanks for any help.

Please email me your experiences or opinions at : grey2112@mindspring.com

Greywolf <grey2112@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.38.65)

Charles,

You are saying that spending too much time in The P.I. is a bad thing! Many brain cells killed in the Subic Bay area, Ohhh, what I would do for a cold Red Horse and a hot Philipino.

Rock on Brothers.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:50:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.125)

Kush: You DO mean Philipina, don't you?
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:56:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.56)
All: Armament Technology M24 - saw one of these for sale on Gunsamerica.com for 3500.00 - not a bad price - considering it's ready to go...

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 01:59:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Kush:
Ever try a Buong Egg(SP?)????
My brother-in-law is Philipino & his dad still prefers traditional foods.

Bolt:
STG58 !! :)
 

Later.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, VA, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:26:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

Kush,
I,too, wasted many brain cells drinking Red Horse, San Miguel and (against regs) Mojo. I would never say anything bad about my time in Olongapo. I was in Oki 3 months before finally getting to PI. what a relief it was!!! I was attached from STA 3/8. Lt. Downs was our OIC. The NPA was getting a little troublesome in 87 (Aquino had just been "elected"). I may know you. Where you with MSG in '89? Kush sounds familiar. My e-mail address is legit, let me know.

Off topic (kinda) question: Has anyone converted their 1911 to fire the .460 Rowland? I've heard it makes a better back up piece. If, so let me know how it performed, recoil, etc.

Semper Fi!
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:28:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.150.120)

Ahhhh the PI. I was there for 18 months with "A" co Marine Barracks from 86' to 88'. I also got to go back when I went on float with 3/1. Man do I miss T's Tavern and Slim's. Or having Orange give me a message at Samuri's(sp). They were good times but now it's all hotels and touristy. I still have the pictures and memories though, or at least the times I can rememeber. :::Sigh:::
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:30:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.47)
Bill you talking about Balut(sp)? The partially fertilized egg that was cooked or pickled so when you opened it it was a baby chicken or duck inside? Many a drunken night I grossed out some Navy women and newbies eating those. But after a bunch of Red Horse it wasn't to hard. Charles I might have hassled you a few times when you were going in and out of the base. I tried not to mess with the Marines to much but the Navy was another story ;)
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:38:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.51)
Rob,
You probably remember us!! We were at the upper MAF camp in the Summer of 87. The idiots pulling watch over the river and the electric plant. What was the name of that river? The Boton, I believe. We'd spend a week on Guard, a week at Red Beach (training?) and a week on patrol with the Papa Mikes. I wished I was you plenty of times. Especially monsoon season. Was "A" in Subic or Cubi point?
Semper Fi!

Chuck

Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.150.120)

Rob,
Did you ever eat those "feet on a stick" things that were on every corner? I never had the balls, but I had a buddy or two that did. I used to go down to the Papa Mike area by the gate and eat dog, but that's about as brave as I got. Besides the old MRE's they'd give us Jarheads. Actually, I think I preferred the dog over the chicken ala death I used to always get.

Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.150.120)

Rob;
That's it! My sis is getting a first class lesson in Philipine cuisine. Some of it I may have to try, some I will not! Love my bro-in-law but why couldn't he have been Mexican!!!!! His family name is Primicias & supposed to have been some relatives in politics when Aquino became seated but they left soon after!
Later
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 02:58:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)
Pat Tidwell, PeteR. Many thanks for the emails. May have to get one of those Badger bases.

Has anyone tried Butch's Bore Shine? Been reading some wicked ad copy for it and thought about giving it a go. I'm shooting molyed bullets and have been using pretty much the Berger method (Kroil/JB).
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:04:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.78.136)

I am in the Air Force Security Police and I am going to be going to a sniper school in Texas with a freind of mine. We were wondering if there are any 1000m ranges in our area. I found info here but I cant seem to retreave the a point of contact. Can any one help?
Also I am looking to put stock on my rifle but am having a hard time finding companies that sell a product that I can trust. I dont want to end up with a cheap peice of junk. Where do I start? Also do I want a stock that is light or heavy?
Jason Sider <jks5150@hotmail.com>
Altus, AFB, ok, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:05:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.50.151.6)
Never had the feet but had the chicken hearts a few times along with alot of the "beef" on the stick at Terry's stand. She had the stand that was about 50 feet down the first right, the way to T's, after you go out the gate. I was gone about 6 months before I came back on float but that first night I came around the corner and Terry was there yelling "Moose!!!" I haddn't seen her in 6 months but she didn't forget me. I used to hang with the Papa Mikes alot but we didn't patrol with them per se. We had our own Jungle Operations Branch or JOBs and we usually had a Papa Mike or Navy guy with us for the language barrier if we caught anyone. We were right at Subic because we worked all the gates for the base. If you walked on the base kept going past the ball fields our barracks was right there. We did all the same stuff you did as far as training, but we usually used green beach, and patroling so I'm not sure why you would have wanted to be us. Unless of course you wanted to stay there for 18 month which was nice :) I'm not sure of the river you are talking about. It's been a while but I still have a topographical map of the base and surrounding area and I could check it out for you. I do miss that place but I keep in touch with a bunch of friends from there. I saw one last weekend and another, who is a sniper in San Antonio, was supposed to come up but we never heard from him. That kinda sucked because we were really looking forward to seeing him. Well here's to the memories.
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:10:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.51)
Rob,

I think that it was never classified as beef on a stick, more like "meat" on a stick. I never asked, they never told. But nothing better on the walk back to the gate from Rumors or Body Shop!

Charles,

That was about a year & a half before I hit The Rock, Charlie Company, 3rd Recon. About a year ago I was digging through some old pics, and found one of my old liberty cards, talk about memories!

Later.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:27:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.140)

Have abandoned the standard Harris some time back Ken. The Swivel will do the job it you follow Gooch's recommendations on that screw.
The Jammies you need are called "Snake Skins" they are camo elastic cloth. They come designed to cover the whole rifle but I cut them in half and cover the barrel end with the small half. Then use the middle to make scope Jammies by slitting a 4 inch cut and slipping it over one end of the scope and then the other. The rest can be pushed up to make 3D Jammies that protect the gun while you're crawling. Or cover the stock. IT works pretty well and you're gun finish won't be mauled. This stuff usually will stay put during a crawl due to the elastic nature. I think it comes in a brown camo and green.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:34:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
As per usual, Kent is right on the swivel thing. Mine came loose about 250 rounds after purchasing it, so I tightened it up per Mike's instructions (well, he told me how to do it RIGHT after laughing at the way I did it), and it's held since then, another 400 or so rounds, still fine. If I only have to mess with it every few months, who cares?

Ken: I wasn't going to mention you shoving 'Lito over the cliff, but since he brought it up, how's this: make sure he has a good trip this year, and get his confidence up really good. Then, next year, when you shove him over again, I'll get it on tape, surprized look and all ;-)

'Lito: you get respect on this site, and it's all earned. I'm getting the impression the guys on the "other" site think I'm an idiot. Time to cut and break. Stupid stuff like correcting someone when they say the origional M-16 jamming problem was due to powder buildup in the throat after just a few rounds. Let me know how the cammie jammies work out, and if you'll make some with a cut out for a flyin' op rod! The 25 isn't out to full range, I'm just not happy with it. With my old stock on there (hasn't been bedded since the receiver got "modified"), it's shooting in the barely under 1 MOA range. I just can't stand to try to figure the center of a shotgun pattern. So I keep it at 700 to 800 (working at the "zone" of the IDPA siloughets), until I get a package marked "from McMillan". Haven't received any doggie box yet, but there were some ATF guys here with a bomb sniffing dog, asking about if I'd ever been back east. Didn't know what they meant. JOKE!!!
BTW, you're getting the 30-06 AP that I was talking about, just didn't have as much of it as I thought. And NO, you didn't get my clips!
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the wild, wild, wacky, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 03:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.253)

Just paint the dam guns. There is absolutely NO barrel heat build up due to painting of the weapon. We have been doing it for years and still get over 5000, going onto 7000 or more on alot of weapons, rounds in our M24s. As far as jammies for the weapon I have seen too many times when the barrel has been trapped by the camo and thus you no longer have a free floated barrel. THAT does damage to your accuracy at all ranges. As far as changing camo, heck paint is fast and accurate, as far as dark green for NC, you will probably get caught. High up in the green pines it is dark, on the ground is very light tan dead saw grass and pampas type grass. The color of the burlap, not pastic, sand bags are very close as is the color of natural burlap soaked in a strong tea and/or coffee solution for a few days.

Bipod, the choice is the Harris tilt o matic with notched leg adjustments. Yes, a pair of pliers will tighten that sucker up and you only have to do it one time. They will not shoot lose and you can tilt them where you need them, they then stay there. The Parker Hale will flop and cause a lose shot and problems at times. Besides they cost too blasted much.

Gooch - Actually the 11.25/11.3 was set specifically for the M 118SB 173 grain. It was set during the period that the Army thought the 168 grain was an illegal hollow point. That caused all the boxes to be marked, and they still are, Not for Combat. If you use all the wazzo formulas for figuring twist it comes out to that weird number for the 173 grain Army "ba***rd round". At least at Rock Island in 87 they did come up with that number. :-)

Well guess I have thrown in my 2 cents. Haven't posted in awhile but come on for a quick peek couple times a week. You guys still get into the damdest arguements!! M21, 45, and yes I'm old. Wonder nine is I wonder why anyone buys the dam thing! 9mm is .38 inches, go figure!!

Sorry Pete couldn't help myself!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 04:09:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.203)

The "debate" on swivel vs. non-swivel bipods could not be more timely. I,to have gone from non-swivel to swivel and back and forth mainly because of the inability to truely "lock down" the swivel once you have it where you need it. I've recently recieved an item called the "Pod-Loc" from Terry Cross at KMW Long Range Solutions, that replaces the knurled knob on the Harris bipods with a small lever that REALLY locks the swivel in place. I'm evaluating it now and hope to have a full write up within a week to ten days. Keep watching the In Review section. Just let me say THIS THING WORKS!!!!

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 06:42:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.60)

does anyone know if you can do anything to make the triggerpull less on a marlin model60? its a cheap little gun, but i love it:) The only bad thing is that its horrably tough to pull:(
Chris <smp@dazedandconfused.com>
boise, id, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 07:11:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.36.16.197)
Rob...
If the Harris shoots loose, send it to them, and they'll fix it.
Yeah... Konnecticut, I'm down in Fairfield, along the coast, and shoot at the Lyman range once or twice a week, when it's NOT raining!

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Wonderin' what that red fire in the eastern sky is??, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 11:48:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

About the barrel camo...Way back when Dave Reed 1st started this site (its probably somewhere in archives) he mentioned an idea about bead/or heavy grit sand blasting a barrel. I took my VSSF and had it heavy grit blasted, not so much for the supposed cooling effect but for dulling the finish. Works. Looks like a stick or nothing, have to see to believe. Another alternative is to take the leftover "pulls" of burlap from your ghillie and spray adhesive (3M 77 is good) on the barrel and then dropping this stuff on the barrel. Seems like I always have plenty of the burlap strands on the floor, even after I have cleaned the A/O !!! Just some more alternatives.

Jeff A., Will be at the "Dog Day Afternoon" match. Ought to be interesting. Just look for the RO with the RUGER !! Ha

OUT HERE !!
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 13:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.148.197)

Nothing wrong with painting your rifle, cept you got one painted for just one terrain. The "Snakes" won't ruin your accuracy or hold too much heat. Camo tape gets wet and accuracy goes to hell that is if you wrap it around the barrel and stock and across the free float gap. Don't confuse the "Snakes" with "gun chaps" cause gun "chaps" will ruin your accuracy fast. You can paint for the terrain your in and use chaps when you get in a different color back ground or do the burlap (loose wrap) to break up the outline. Burlap gets wet too though. If "Snakes" get wet they don't retain a lot of moisture. I hate having to remove the paint but it's not going to cause heat build up. Oh yes, I use white socks in the snow in the winter time just cut one end out of knee length socks. I doubt Rick has that "white" problem where he lives. Sometimes I change terrain colors 2 or 3 times a day *in melting snow conditions. That would take a lot of paint. Some guys around here use that Bow paint that just washes off but it's not quite that simple. Some sniper applications might be a bit too rigorius for the chaps but I've not found that to be true in these rocks and sage and cedar mesa's of this country. Paint the hell out of her if you like but chaps cost $10 apiece that will do a rifle and scope.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 13:45:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

By the way, where are all these painted guns from factories? Are we talking stocks? Most guns are blued on bead blasted metal, Actually the shinny ones are blued too but he metal is polished much more like colt python pistols and R..gg.r rifles. Leupold uses some kind of finish on their matte but I think the metal may be rougher than the shiny model uses. Parkerized guns have kind of disappeared except for some PSS models. That's a good finish for dulling things and providing rust protection I always thought. Wasn't someone parkerizing with a couple of colors at least to provide some camo effect? Bead blasting and reblueing works wonders to take the shine off of course that's been said.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:00:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Re: TACTICAL INTERVENTION & MIKE MILLER

Guys, I got my brandy new sling in the mail on Friday. I was just like a kid on Christmas morning. Couldn't wait to get my new toy home to play with.

Simply put, this sling is awesome. I know that quite a few of you guys have posted very positive comments in the past, however, I just want to throw my 2 cents worth in.

The quality of Mike's slings is nothing short of top notch. For you guys that haven't yet got one, go out there and buy one. Mike is a great guy to deal with and sent my sling out promptly. You can't get much better than that. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Mike's products to anyone.

Just another happy camper.

By the way, I saw some very interesting Lapua bullets yesterday while picking up some inventory from my Lapua distributor. They had some of those .30 cal. 200 gr. sub-sonic jacketed bullets. They sort of looked like a jacketed version of a pointed cast lead bullet without the lubricant. Very cool stuff.

Any of you guys into sub-sonics?

All the best...

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:09:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.81)

OH yes some might want to go this way, Remington uses an epoxy resin to cover their rifles like the ADL BDL wood models. You can repair chips and dents on them with expoxy resin if you are careful to keep it from running. Finn Aggard took epoxy resin and mixed it with sand and actually finished a rifle with it. I bet it would do a number on your hands but if you mixed colors with it and then bead blasted the epoxy it would probably last forever and be a dull finish and moisture barrier that wouldn't quit. I haven't tried it yet so do something other than your favorite gun first. After free floating a wood barrel epoxy resin to coat the inside will stabilize the wood warp to some extent. Mix small amounts and brush it on quickly keep it level till it sets up cause that stuff runs bad...it will be shiny but it's on the inside (forever!). All in a days work for Ote hunters.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:11:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Master Rick,

WELCOME BACK!

Will yourself and "Sinister" Dave be gracing the Sniper Rendezvous?
Hope so, I got a TON of questions for you, couldn't get a word in edgewise post match cuz of "CliffDiver" Coburn while youse was standing by The Depities 20' long motocycle
 

Wonder Nine!
We don Need No Stinkin Wonder Nine!
We don Want no Stinking Wonder nine!

Ask Jeff A. and The Sargester - A Kimber .45 acp ROCKS !
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
MONSOON CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:26:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.173)

Hey Sarge: promise a write up. Not sure if I really NEED it, but sounds cool, and I'm all about upgrading! Lever lock for a Harris bipod. Neat!

Master Rick: you know I honor your opinion like all get out, but I think you're trying to bait me..... But I'll agree that if I was limited to wimpy store bought ammo or ball, I wouldn't use one either. From what I understand, my ammo would break a Browning frame. Besides, I'd rather be missed by a 44 mag than hit with a 357 mag (38) or a screaming non-factory 9. When I can get my hands on a 100% 45 auto.....

About painting: I'm gonna do mine (scope, barrel, stock and all), but in light sand colors and such, to mix in with the desert around here. Not that I'm wanting to "cammo" it per se, but it'll be a good start. Then the skins, winds, or whatever you call the good stuff this month for a cammo application. Oh, and 'Lito was right on about the Roguard being a high tech paint. And it wears off on corners like a high tech paint after a few hundred presentations from a holster. Of course, I don't carry a M-25 in a holster.....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
e-home, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:37:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.244)

Unofficial results for Storm Mountain Training Center (SMTC) at the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championship (CFSAC) matches.

There were 6 matches in the sniper competition; 300 meter Agony Snap, 400 meter Movers, 500 meter Agony Snap, 600 meter One Shot One Kill, 800 meter Harrassment and the 600 meter Falling Plates.

SMTC had top shooter in the 600 meter One Shot - One Kill with a score of 50.6v (50 with 6 V's) out of a possible 50.10v, and took first place in the 600 meter falling plates. A SMTC placed second overall in the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) sniper category.

Further official results will be posted when received from DCRA.

All-in-all it was a very good match, world class shooters. There were shooters from many countries and all regions of Canada.

Doc King
 

David L. King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 14:56:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.228.226)

'Yote Bate...

My first PSS was a nice dark olive parkerize, the last two were a spray on black powdercoat, including the bolt face :(
Cleaned off the paint from the bolt faces, and later sent one back for a feeding/chamber problem (what else is new), and they wouldn't send it back without $175 for a new bolt cuz the old one had been "modified!"... the paint had been removed from face.
Had to get my 'smith to call them to get my gun out of "Remington Jail". They sure are paranoid up in Illion :(

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 15:01:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Charles, just checking. We do get some posers on here from time to time.

You guys and the Phillipines memories. Last time I was there was in 1981. Spent a few days in Angeles City with a female Corpsman from Camp Lester Hospital (it was Kuwai Hospital then). The Air Farce put me in the enlisted VAQ (I was a Sgt) and her in the highrise hotel thing. My room was like the scene at the begining of Apocalyps Now, no AC, a ceiling fan, slat windows etc. Needless to say I spent most nights in the highrise with the WAVE. Spent a month at Upper MAU camp in 79 with Bravo 1/5 on the first unit rotation. THat was exciting. We used to march to the chowhall and got ambushed by a crew of monkees. Had a friend swim across shit river when he got stuck in town after curfew...ah yes the pirate days...

Anyway, you jarheads check out this web site. Its about Philippino marine snipers. http://philippinemarines.webjump.com/index.html

Holy Shit!! GOt a thunder storm unleashing outside. Time to go to GQ.

Out here!
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 15:12:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.137)

Dave you're too modest.

Guys, Dave was the one that won the 600m stage. 50-6 is kicking ass.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 15:16:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.137)

Mr. Rodgers

I didn't intend to ruffle any feathers. I saw your post and thought I'd mention my take on it.
As for the other calibers you mentioned, I to own and play with each and think they are all OUTSTANDING!
I'm sure Mr. Rice builds very fine rifles as I have read the post on this site. All of my rifles are built by Bill Wylde. He has built 3 for me (and hopefully a 4th 6.5x284 in the future) and they are all outstanding shooters.
Like I said. No p***ing contest. I read your post and usually agree with your opinions and humor.

Respectfully Bill B.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 15:33:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.20.172.53)

Philippine Marines and M16-based DMR/SS Rifles:

Jeez, it would seem that somebody in the Philippine Marine Corps has put his thinking cap on. This makes *hell* of a lot of sense from any number of standpoints. I imagine that there are some long shots to be taken on the bigger islands but from what I can gather, the insurgent activity mostly takes place on the smaller southern islands in some very bushy terrain. This is the way to go, from both a tacitical and a logistical point of view. Logisticaly speaking, look in a Brownells catalog and see how many pages of AR stuff ther is as compared to M14 stuff.No contest.

Were only our own Corps so progressive...
 

Camoflaging Bolt Guns:

I have a little bit different idea. I would rather not paint up my rifle, all else being even, and the 2-D camo offered by paint has it's limitations anyway. My thought was a loose-fitting wrap of lightweight camo netting like No-See-Um mesh secuired by a couple of bands of small diamter inner tube rubber from a racing bicycle. The low mass nature of the material and means of securuing it would seem to imply minimal change to POI and the loose fit with a few bow ties of additional netting would tend to disrupt that pipe-sticking-out-of-bush effect that even a painted barrel gives you. Another through was to go into the top edge of the barrel channel in the stock and inlet several machine nuts and have some small blackened screw to thread into them, this being the means to secure material to the forend. a simple chap to go around the butstock made out of an old BDU pantsleg with a few bows of camo netting added and you can develop a system of rapidly interchangable Ghillified camo packages for the rifle.

Its a thought.

-Tom
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 15:54:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

On bipods.... s' been a while since I posted here, if I had any credibility built up before I suppose it may have by now expired... but my $.02 on bipods is, there is no bipod that LOOKS more exotic and fit for duty than the Parker Hale, but they are just to heavy and floppy to be practical. I went to a good deal of trouble on one to flute it and skeletonize it; was rewarded with about 1/2 pound of chips on the floor, not enough to matter. It LOOKs even cooler though. The Harris, Plebian though it may be, wins. Their weakest point seems to be the sheet metal strap that is formed into a split nut, giving the female thread used to tension it to the swivel stud, and the two-bit, 10-24 Allen screw wanna-be that they provide. Always been a peeve of mine, when somebody makes an otherwise good product and then saves themself $.03 on the production cost by using cheesy fasteners.

Don't forget that the Versa-Pods (the PH knockoff) are made in China and as such should be beneath the notice of anyone who thinks it's wrong to imprison people for their political or religious beliefs, and to use them as cheap/slave labor.

My range out back is temporarily out of service due to a new pipeline being laid through it, that's bad news.... the good news is the crew has a BIG pile of dirt right in front of my backstop and I'm pretty sure I can get them to just kinda push it about 20' south and leave it, effectively doubling the height and width, which should also about double the distance I can shoot from. As it is, the current backstop disappears behind a roll in the terrain at about 450 yards.

Ned
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 16:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.4)

Marlin 60 triggers:

Its tuneable enough, but it takes a gunsmith who knows what he is going. Most would not take on such a job, though. Product liability and all that. Specific advise on how to do would be hard to come by, too. Its one of those "if you need to ask how, your not qualified to do it" sorts of deals, sorry, as it is also one of those things where bad, bad things happen if you do it wrong. There are no easy drop-in solutions for your problem that I am aware of.

Camo Coloration:

It would seem to me that, here in the white pine forests that blanket much central and costal South Carolina, the natural target for a paint scheme woud be to blend you in to pine straw while shooting from under or about a subtropical bush in a tree line or pines. In that setting a natural choice of colors would be Rustoleum brown primer highlighted with diagonal streaks of black and patches of a fairly bright green.

Verdad?
 
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 16:27:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Kush,

parker Hale Bipods:

I have both, the steel on the mc millan m 88 .50 were I had a gunwriter break my frist aluminum one. Wasnt the Bipod´s fault, just the shooter was a whimp and pulled back on the bipod letting it take all the recoil.

I have several of the aluminum ones and two steel, nope I am not rich, just good friends with Roger Hale. The chinese copy is about as good too.

Just get a few of the of the spigots to attach to your diffrent rifles than your are good to go with one bipod.

When shooting of the ph bipod best put in in neutral, with no pressure forwards or back on the bipod. Let it sit at the upper point of the radius and recoil naturally.
 

t
 

Torsten Erning <7.62@lasercon.de>
Germany - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 16:36:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.152)

Ned: Your credibility survives. It's good to see you back. Been putting any rounds through your shotguns?

All: Loopie sells a 6X with mil-dots and target adjustments. It has 60+ minutes of elevation adjustments. With 20 minute tapered mounts, does that let you get on a 100 yards. I know this needle of information is in the haystack of an archive, but the archive has no search capability.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 18:09:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.35)

CDC...
I have one of those little Lupitas... very nice for AR flat tops.
They DON'T take a sunshade :(

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 18:46:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

I want to thank all for responding to my question on bipods. You have convinced me to go with the swivel. It seems I do spend an awful lot of time playing with the legs on my non-swivel version.

My next question is I currently have a Springfield Armory 4.5-14x56 gov't model scope and am not to impressed with it. The rangefinding reticle makes the scope to "busy" and the 56mm objective puts the scope to high. I have also had trouble with the AO. It seems the only thing I do like about it is the internal bubble level. The issue of scopes has been beat to death here but due to everything I have read here I am going to s*#&t can it and get a leupold 3.5-10 lr M1. I want to thank everyone for all the knowlegeable posts on here. You guys really do help those of us that monitor this site but don't really speak out.

Ken, You are the man. You are more anal retentive than I am. I enjoy your shop pieces and photos. Thanx all
Brack <Brackett@massed.net>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:22:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.69.114)

Bravo - the bait hit the surface and skipped right past you. No hook was allowed to set. Guess I was a bit obvious with it wasn't I.
 
 

On Camo - Tom, I am in the Sand Hills and forget that other regions of NC and SC does actualy have green some of the time. However, be very careful with the darker colors. You are actually better going lighter (NOT WHITE!!!) then you are going darker. Even the pine needles on the forest floor is surprisingly light tan to brown. The eye sees objects in certain ways that create problems for the sniper. Light Dark is one of them. At SMTC last year all were caught by being too dark, NOT too light. There are no natural BLACK objects. All are man made and will attract the eye. Black even stands out in the dark as a very dark shadow within a shadow. The biggest problem of the barrel is the round circle presented by the muzzle. The line of the barrel is easily broken with grass or burlap tied to the barrel but not restricting the barrel.
 
 

Pete - If they powers that be let me off so I can make the trip, I will be there that is for sure! We do have a course running at that time. I guess I could fail all my students early so I wouldn't have to be there but then I wouldn't be able to live with myself!
 
 

Again on the bipods - Torsten you are absolutely right on the neutral position of the bipod. Push forward or pull back and you will throw the round when the bipod jumps from tension to neutral. Usually high and not always the same height. thank you for reminding us of that fact. We still need to get together for a beer and some good stories T.
 
 

SMTC - Congrates on a job well done at the Sniper Shoot! That is some hard holding!
 
 

Oh well enough for now. Hold hard guys and always have fun!
 
 

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:40:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.182)

CDC: this sounds like a possible alternate scope for the '25! Something with less mirage, but just as good (and I don't need 10X anyway). If you get one, let me know how well it works (adjustability to close / far ranges). Of course, it'd be easier if I got to slap this BDC on it, but hey, life's hard. Man, I need a Lupita catalog.

'Lito: they ALL take sun shades. All you need is some aluminum tubing of correct diameter and a tube of JB Weld ;-) I've backed off the Mark 4 M3 sunshade project, the machining cost too much, and it's not as big of a problem as mirage is.

Brack: you're right, that Springfield scope is crap, and you ought to sh***an it. Well, I guess I ought to go out and see if there's any mail in my sh***an. If you need the PO Box for the sh***an, let me know ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
strugling with a temporary beer deficit, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 20:41:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.184)

Bill Byford; Bill WILDER who? Does that old Greenup farm boy make guns? Seriously no offense taken, my direct answers sometimes get mistaken for pissed but it ain't so. Me and Bill W. go back lot longer than the Internet by the way! When I said "others have" he was first and foremost on my mind. In fact Bill Wylde is the first guy I ever heard of a 6 or 6.5 mm-284 from. He dont' count though. You give him a H&R single shot 30-30 and he'll find a way to get it to a 1000 yards. I mentioned the Rice man cause he's been snipin with a 6mm wildcat too at distance I'm ashamed to talk about. Somethin tells me you've seen your share of 1000 yard targets if you even know that old coot from Ill.!
I don't drop his name much cause he's too busy to talk to folks that ain't serious. If you have his guns, I judge you damned serious!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 22:13:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Rick, come on dont kid anyone the 9mm is as good a handgun round as the 223 is a field sniper round and almost as good as a Mini 14 is a battle rifle. You need to get on your horse and come to New Mexico in the spring and see some pretty country. As soon as I figure when Elk season is in New Mexico I am going back, in full ghillie and sneaking past James for some steaks. Well I am going to bribe the sneaky one into letting me shoot one Elk. I have not figured out how to convince him an Elk is just a very large Varmint.

On painting rifles. I just keep changing the colors until they get slick and then wipe it all off with Acetone and start again. No change to anything with or without the paint. I use a wrap around the rifle, of Ghillie Material for stalking.

Scopes: The 3.5x10 LR Tactical is excellent.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, August 06, 2000 at 23:13:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.57)

Mike, I joke you not, the place that I've seen the most elk in my life is about 30 miles south of there, and one of my buddies routinely filled his and several others (a practice that I don't personally condone) tags as a group about 20 miles north. As far as I can tell, you're in the great poo-bah elk grand-daddy's living room right there. I'm not sure where the division lines are anymore, but I believe that the area we're talking about is still an extremely difficult tag to pull (if you're interested). At least it was when I was there. You don't even need a rifle, many are lethally whacked on the roadway right through there. Watched one myself, a pickup try to wind through about 40 of them right around dusk. Besides, you drive a Ford, so it won't hardly scratch the paint ;-)
I know you're just jabbing in good fun at me about the mini, so I'm not gonna get upset or whatever. The fact is, a person is in one of three camps. Either he's trying to learn everything he can (for me first hand), he's all ready verified that it does or doesn't work, or he's a gunmag guru (you know the ones, tell you about a rifle they've never handled but read a good write up!). Well, I don't take what I read with too much faith (too many perfect weapons in G&A that were really lousy), and I haven't tried it first hand. You can see where I'm going. I've got to learn somehow. For some reason I learn best by doing. Sure, I fail a lot, but I learn. Better now than later.
As for the 9, I guess I'm hereby going to step up to my trusty S&W Distinguished Combat Magnum. Fixed sights, L frame, stainless steel. The full house 357 mags will give me that extra 16% kinetic energy. It's a LOT heavier than the Glock, bigger (4" bbl), and not theoretically as reliable in wet environments, not to mention it doesn't have the same capacity (I usually don't carry a spare mag or loader when I go to the grocery store), but it had numbers that should make the 45 auto look sloppy. Guess I'll carry a spare Safariland.
Unfortunately, this leaves you nothing to tease me about ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 00:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.143)
Ghillie Cleaning...

Okay roster hogs... whadaya do for cleaning your ghillie? I have one of the KUSA ghillie suits - which is pretty much a fairly well burlapped cammo top and a separately burlapped cammo bottom.

I ran each piece separately thru the washer (on gentle cycle). Then put each piece in the dryer on a medium heat. It came out pretty good - slightly fluffy (fluff man - eh?). Quite abit of fur in the dryer filter. I was sure that this process would tie all that burlap into knots...
Thing is - now it smells too good... all someone has to do is catch a whiff of 'downy' or 'bounce' blowing down wind :)

Ken :)
 

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesvillle, Va, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Also: no gang, the Major does not know that I ran this stuff thru the washer/dryer... They're in the middle of a typhoon over there - so she most likely won't find this post on the roster...

Ken :))

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Torsten,

Thanks for the poop on the Parker-Hale. For now I have the funds for one Bi-pod. Is the aluminum a rock solid pod? I'm trying to keep down on the weight.

Thanks Bro

Kush out
 

Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:09:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.145)

Ken - Try using the delicate bag that the woman of the house uses for her panty hose and other delicates, that keeps down the fuzz and saves marriages, just don't use hers. I am surprised you didn't get any tangles though, I always get some but then a good pair of scissors takes care of that problem. Smell, wear it in the woods and roll roll roll like a dog! Also adds some nice natrual as well. :)

Mike - Come on, just because everyone, to include the FBI, gave up on that wonder round doesn't mean it isn't good. See the Army uses it. Of course we went with our own 45 but what do we know! Did the lure hit the water closer to you this time Bravo? :-)

Oh yes the case for the 38 in 357 mag size is alot bigger than that little puny case on the 9makemy day round.

Time to cut and run guys see you later.

Rick
 
 

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:37:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.33)

I am going to take advantage of this turn in tide toward handguns to ask opinions on the SIG 220. I am dumping my HK UPS40 & want to return to .45 but need to stay with something my wife can pick up in an emergency(she doesn't like to train much- silly women thing!)
By the way- A few of you moved me so hard, I plunked down my money and bought my Badger base & rings- will install tomorrow & then just have to wait on my HS triggerguard to arrive...
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 01:48:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

Are any of you from Delaware? (Free teddy bears to those who know where this state is). I used to e-mail a shooter from this site who lived around Wilmington and used a shooting range around there, the Brandywine 100 Gun & Rod Club I think. He went by the e-mail of T18man@someserver.com or something similar to that. Unfortunately, Hotmail deleted my e-mail library, so I don't have his address anymore. Please e-mail me if if anyone can enlighten me.

Thanks

Des

One more thing, do all you guys name your rifles, and is it a cardinal sin if I name mine after my favorite comic book character, Calvin(which is in opposition to the traditional female naming)?
d19 <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
DE, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:21:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.183.91.5)

Bill,
as far as Sig Sauer pistols are concerned, I have had nothing but extreme good luck with them (hope this statement does not start a jinx). My latest (and greatest ?) is a P-226 in the .357Sig caliber (aka 9mm-on-steroids). So far, with way too many hundreds of rounds through it, have never, ever, had a misfeed or slam-fire. The one thing I like about the P-226 over the P-220 though is the fact that with only a barrel change (drop-in barrels, no custom fitting necessary), you turn it into a .40S&W (for those need-to-release testosterone days), plus the .357Sig and the .40S&W use identical and interchangeable 10-round mags. Plus the construction is all steel; none of the plastic lower garbage.

Regards.

Ares
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:30:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.222.13)

D19:
My favorite Rem 700: 'Beth'
My Rem PSS: 'Ruth'

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:34:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Steyr SSG PI: I have recently purchased a PI. It has been zeroed at 100 yrds and on occasion produces 1/2" groups (Federal Match and Black Hills). However, when I move to the 200 yard line, my rounds drop 4.5" on average. I've even had rounds "walk" downward from 4.5" to 5" to 6" on a three round group (windage holds steady). The rifle has a Leupold 6.5x20 long range scope, 26" medium barrel (1-12 twist/ 4 lands and grooves). The walking elevation and low groups seem odd as the rifle also sports the new Sniper Country reviewed Accu-shot monopod. I've ruled out operator error by shooting a friend's Rem 700 during the same session and achieving roughly a 2"-2.5" drop with the same ammo. I've thought about a Cryro job on the barrel. Have you ever heard of this problem and if so, any suggestions and/or advise would be appreciated. Thanks, Russ
Russ <Nthing2Do@AOL.COM>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:44:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.187)
Ah ha! Master Rick, you've got a bite now! The size of the case is mostly irrelevant! My 357 load will do an honest 1450 with a Remington 125 grainer JHP (chronographed load). I load them in 38 special cases (Winchester), and use W296. This is done to stay above the low case problems of the powder. I pity the crook that tries to use my loads in a 38. My 9 loads are either a 115 Winchester JHP at 1385 or a Remington 124 grain JHP at 1320, whichever is on sale that month. For the "real thing" I keep the Sierras in 115. Since we can definately say that a 9 (.355) is the same as a 357 mag (.357), and a 124 and a 125 are the same, then my 9 loads are a touch better than a chronoed full house 357 from a snubbie. I'm gonna give the Glock 40 a try, because it uses the same frame size as the 17, and I gots SMALL hands. 45 auto? Don't get me wrong, I love them. Just never had one that I'd want to put my neck on. That's 2 stockers and one custom job. Still got the 2 stockers though. I know they're out there, but the guy I shoot IDPA with never shot a "non-jammer" until he paid for a Wilson. Kept buying Colts and Springfields. Besides, if you look at the Sannow / Wilson book, the Corbon 9 load (Sierra 115 at 1350) was the equivalent of the Hydrashok 45. If I were still having to carry ball, I'd ONLY carry a 45 auto, and keep it immaculate! The military moving to the 9 is a bad proposition no questions.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
carrying pig iron, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 02:45:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.225)
1)
D19 :
don't tell me... you have also incorporated an invisible cretinizer on that rifle of yours ? >:)

http://www.calvinandhobbes.com/fans/spiegelberg/images/caold2.gif
 

2)
Bravo's post proves again the validity of the First Law of Armed Combat : "Thou shall not taunt ZenMaster Bravo for thou shall be buried under a mountain of experience-derived, truthful and consistent web of data thus rendering you incapable of offering a contradictory statement".

Bravo, keep it coming !
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
canton, OH, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 03:01:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.222.13)

Would someone please comment on this conversion that a company is making on the M1Garand. It is rechambered into a 338Mag. Cut and paste or click on the url I'm putting in as my home page but it sure as heck isn't. I'm not the technogeek I should be, I can't remember for the life of me how to do intext links to pages.

http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/garand/garand.html
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 03:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.16.47)

Oh, I think I'll risk taking my buddy Bravo on. Call me foolhardy.

That Sannow/Marshall/Wilson stuff is based on methodology they appear to have made up. Grown-ups are paid for that stuff, you can't just wing it. The predictive power of the model I saw can't be demonstrated. They also contaminated the hell out of their data. Some is of use despite that. One little nugget is interesting: If I remember right, as of about 1995, nineteen people were hit one shot center mass with 230 gr hydroshock .45s out of full length 1911s. All 'were stopped'. I'm not sure what 'were stopped' means, but, if it means they were incapable of continuing the objectionable activity, that is valuable information. Unless someone asks I won't burden you with the math and there is more current data. I'd be willing to give odds that number twenty didn't do any better.

As for dependability: Bravo's experience matches mine. A stock 1911 is just crude collections of parts. An expensive trip to a competent smith makes it a living thing of functional beauty. If the Kimbers come from the factory like that, a Kimber, a few magazines of Hydro-Shocks and the three class pistol sequence at Gunsite could be comforting.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 03:46:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.77)

Et tu Brutae?

CDC: you'll get no arguement from me on anything you said. Oh, and I guess you must have gotten an earlier edition than I did, so you earned your $20. The 45 (excluding all data except the 5", like anyone wants something else) hydrashok went 24 for 24 in mine.
Your commentary on the stock 45's is great, but I would have capitolized COMPETENT. After all, I did get one custom job. Shot accurate like you wouldn't believe, when it went bang instead of click.
Now, as for contamination of data, I'm gonna completely bow to you. I dunno anything about that. My contention is that I will carry a pistol that meets the following criterion:
1. fits my hand and living style (weight/bulk/girth since I carry ALL the time). No Desert Eagles ;-) This one is the hard one, cuts a BUNCH!
2. Has to go BANG! ALL the time. Not most, or some, or if I clean it more often than 1000 rounds without oiling. Not that I want to carry one in that condition, but 1000 rounds without oiling or cleaning is a real confidence builder!
3. Has to be in a major caliber by my definition. If I were for some reason limited to ball, NATO spec or otherwise, 9 would be out, as well as 357 mag.
4. Has to have at least 6 rounds capacity (although I've bent that with my 44 - 5 shot) with quick reloading capability.

When I find something that will beat my Glock, well, by definition it will beat my Glock! Any of you guys that have a guvmint model that will pass #2, please let me know who built it for you. I'll send my stocker off right after I pay for the CAR!

Besides, believe it or not, I DO sleep well at night with this grand delusion that the same rounds I practice and compete with, if used against someone, won't make them start laughing at me when hit. Rapidly. With quick succession follow up shots. After all, most ALL of pistolry is HITTING. I'll be the first to admit that I'd rather go up against "Joe Schmoe" with a stocker 1911 or whatever else than a Bullseye competitor with his custom Ruger 22!

G'night Amigo.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
gettin' late, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 04:47:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.171)

Bill Rodgers

Don't give Mr. Wylde any ideas! He'll have me plunking down money on a shiny barreled H&R that you have to point at the sky but will put all your rounds in the X-ring!
But seriously. You won't meet a better person than Bill, and he builds extremly accurate rifles. Ask anyone that has shot one.
I still haven't made a 1000 yard match yet. There are some matches in our area that let you shoot F-class that the afore mentioned is supposed to get me info for, but as you said he is a busy man. I do occasionally (not occasionally enough by my own fault) shoot at Bill's 500 yard range and am slowly learning to read wind.
If you get the chance ask Bill about his FUNNY GUNS. They look different, but god do they shoot.
Enough for now.
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 05:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.20.172.39)

Bill, RE Sig 220,

Buy it, buy one or two extra mags (pretty reasonable), and shoot the heck out of it. I fed mine a steady diet of cheap ammo (never a jam) for practice, and for "business" it carried Speer Gold Dot. The Speer ammo was REALLY accurate in my particular sig, and the Winchester SXT's were better than average. Having taught quite a few people to shoot, they all say the same thing about the Sig, "Wow, it is kind of light, but it doesn't kick much". My 220 is the only handgun I have ever fired that I can say NEVER fails. The next choice, in my mind is a Glock 22, I have shot a few of them that were close to as good as the 220.

Bravo, have to agree. I would rather not get into a conflict with someone who shoots a couple hundred rounds a week to stay proficient, regardless of the caliber. I get into that disagreement every time I take only a .22 pistol to the range some "good ole' boy" thinks I need to learn to shoot a real gun. Funny, I will take a good group with a .22 over misses with a .32 or something of similar ilk anyday.
 

Dan-O <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
Mo-town, WV, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 05:13:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.242.3)

I am under the impression (and taught) that in the case of a combat pistol round, the meaning of "stopping power" is defined as the amount of energy that needs to be delivered on the body of a 95 Kilogram (about 200 lb roughly) opponent, at a range of 25 meters that is in the process of charging you, carrying an assault rifle and dressed in full battle gear, in order to stop him in his tracks, cold. Apart from the ability of the round to expand properly thus imparting maximum counter-acting energy, it also needs to reliably penetrate multiple layers of thick webbing from an assault harness for example.

The problem with the 9mm Parabellum round, especially with the NATO ball bullet, is that is has a tremendous penetrating power, without being able to impart sufficient "stopping" energy.

I think I will stick to my .357Sig JHP's for now...
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 05:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.225.209)

I am looking for a time of flight chart for Rem.168BTHP match if anyone can help or direct me to a place I can find it i'd realy appreciate it.
lee <lawman328@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 05:53:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.80.209.84)
Bravo, my son, I carry a pistol everyday and have for the last twenty years. I worked Detectives eight years (person crimes/sex/homicides) I have investigated and or been involved in more than a few shootings. I have seen bad guys take up to nine rounds of wonder nine. I saw one guy take three and the only thing that knocked him down were my ex football player moves. I do not want to hear "Please dont shoot me again" again. The number of real world failures of the nine is only out numbered by the reviews by half assed know it alls that have pieces of Cor.... ammo company or other pushers of things likely to get cops killed. I do not care if the name starts with San or ends in Boob, the nine sucks! It either goes straight through or stops to soon.

Now if you are using handloads for self defense, you are just asking for a lawsuit when and if you have to defend yourself. They will kill you with your intent to kill and take what ever assests you have. Buy some factory stuff and use it for defense. I know what happens when you shoot someone,in the civilian world. You pee pee in a cup, or get blood drawn, they talk to you for days, they take your weapon to inspect for non manufacture changes, they take apart your ammo and they have you talk to a shrink. Not fun! Not fun!

Quit trying to make a nine work like a 45, get a 45, or a 40 if your hands are too small. Although I do not know anyone that can shoot a Glock that can not hold a 1911 better. CDC is right a Kimber is a great gun to go with. Come to CQB and you will see one in my holster. I have carries the plastic gun many times, but that is because the damm politicians/brass are affraid of the 1911 for duty use. It has an exposed hammer. Oh My a gun that you could shoot someone with.

Rick, my first sniper school was taught by the FBI, when they still did the SWAT thing, a long time ago, at Ft. Ord Calif. I was glad a guy from the Army West Coast Team and the holder of most of the Police Olympic High Power records (at the time) were on either side of me, so I could learn something. SWAT back then was different. We trained for the real world. Snipers would shoot over an entry teams heads ( I did it many times) We would carry combat loads, not just have empty vest and simulate. We used live ammo in clearing techniques( I took seveteen stiches from a team mate's bad shot during one of these events) We trained on military bases, out of Huey's. Heck it was real. We got no overtime, no nothing extra and as it has been said before "We liked it" LOL We weren't training tell someone was bent hard at the waist. Then the politics started getting in the way of teams and how selections were made. The rest is history. We have what we have today. Guys all dressed up. Gizmos every where and no one knows how to use them. Mildots in scopes and the "operator" goes "Huh" when you ask them how many mils a target is, or his hold over. Yell at him for being the moron he and to take this shit serious before he kills the wrong person and you have to explain to a command officer why you upset the piece of dung. This has probably spewed from me because of recent events around the country. Sorry to rant.
 

All shooters: Know your target. Know your backstop. Know your Elevation. Know your windage. Know your abilities. Know your weaknesses. Do not expect equipment to make up for marksmanship skills.

Fellow cops, train with friends, by your self or what ever. Do not wait to learn something you needed today or tomorrow. Learn your trade or put the rifles in the rack. See rules above.

Ken, the resolution of the US Optics scope was a big thing in shooting targets that small. The Norcal/Rice rifle was a big part. I just pointed the combination and let the rifle do the work. The rifle wants to shoot straigh we just keep screwing it up.

James, my foot hurts, my attitude is bad. New Mexico can not be that far off. LOL

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 06:04:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.188)

Kush,

Parker Hale Bipod:

I have an Aluminum one on my 15lbs. Mauser 86 SR and it works fine and has no signs of wear other than the bottom of the skids. The one I had broken on the fifty split right between the spigot hole and the socket for the leg joint. And like I wrote it was not the bipods fault.

In the beginning I went with the adjustable handstop in a rail, but changed to a spigot that I glassed into the forend of the stock. A lot lower,and less prone to getting caught on things. The spigots can be made by anyone with a lathe, so you can put one in each of your rifles. When glassing these in be sure and make some deep scrapes and dremel cuts into the back inch or so to give the epoxy something to hold on to. I welded some little dropplets on mine before glassing it in and it holds rock solid.

I like the PH because it is truely QD. Which was good when shooting the SMTC stress course with the window slit, or in a tight rosebush were the bipod would get caught. Also it does not have monster "Air rifle" springs that collect all sorts of stuff on a stalk and let the bipod have a life of its own. The PH tilts in any way you need it without spring tension to fight.

And most important it is of KISS design.

t
 
 
 

Torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
Germany - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 07:22:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.188)

Ok I'll bite,
Handguns.... finally something I can comment on from experience!

Ares
I'll back Bravo on this one. Say what you like about the combat tupperware but those little Glocks will work EVERY time. I loved all of mine before the powers that be decided handguns were far too dangerous for us to be using for "sport" ('cause we weren't allowed them for any other purpose) and took them off us. But hey I can get to learn all this fun stuff with rifles and high capacity shotguns now ...go figure.
Never owned a Sig but knew a few people who did and I never heard a bad word said against them. 1911's... great design but I've seen lots that didn't work.
Calibre choice... Its your life you decide. If I lived or "worked" in the U.S. then 9mm probably wouldn't be the best choice , but it wouldn't be the worst by a long way unless you had to use ball.
Anywhere else in the world 9mm is easy to get hold of. I'd rather have a full nine than an empty anything else.

Kush
for what its worth I'd go for the Harris in a heartbeat. I've seen and used the Parker Hale/versapod and they wobble about like a....
well, like a very wobbly thing, I hated it. Get the knotched spring out legs, I didn't and wish I had. But the swivel type is a must.

Great site guys, learned a lot but still a long way to go.

Mark D
Mark Dougan <dougie@mill.co.uk>
London, UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 12:45:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.113.7.83)

Dam Mike, I hope your foot heals FAST! :-) I know what you mean about the LEA situation and their "training problems" We used t train then and then there was a political decision that we train killers thus no more LEA training is allowed.

Bravo - Man I can not beleive you took that one!!! I figured the lure would skip harmlessly in the water again! I'll have to buy you a beer on that one.

Kush - Get the Harris!!!

Everyone - Paint your dam guns!!!! :-)

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 12:49:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.182)

Rick................. ;-)

The M-1911 series seemed to work for a pretty long time without any "Master" gunsmiths playing with it, and in some pretty shitty conditions if you take in WW-1, WW-2, and Korea just as Std References.

I've owned and shot most of the wonders including H&K PSP, Hi-power, Burpetta, CZ's, The SIGS, ad naseum.

Shoot a calibrated pepper popper and see which slams the thang to the ground. Most "Major" calibers do exactly that. Minor calibers well it look cool to hits it three to five times while is falling.........

My OEM Kimber has NEVER failed with #47 Wilson Mags (all I use)

If your pistol(or revolver) is 100% reliable and you can center hit with it right or left hand out to 25 yards in day or night YOU WILL BE OK.

Getting shot is a pain, regardless of the caliber!

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:03:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.52)

I'm casting my vote for the 1911s in .45ACP. I have a Kimber, Gold Cup and a Glock 21 and I'll take the Kimber over all of them. Add a fast Blade Tech holster and that great combat handgun training they offer at SMTC and you can't go wrong. Practice what your taugh and practice often. From a state that doesn't allow hollow points you can't beat 230 gr ball for stopping power. And you can buy them for less than $200 per 1000. Allows more time for loading those perfect 308s and 300s.

Ken: Keep the Ghillie all fluffy and perfumey. This way all those nice creepy crawly things will be clinging to you, maybe even the sheep. I learned a technique for cleaning a ghillie. Tie it to your trailer hitch and head on down the road. Works wonders.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Gooch,
No problem. I understand the trash that may come across here from time to time. I actually enjoyed having to think back to my time in the Pacific area (being 2nd MARDIV) most of my time in. Even on MSG they kept me in Europe (Ich Sprache Deutch), so my 6 months in Oki and PI was refreshing.

Does anyone have info on Accelerator rounds? What kind of Max range against a man-sized target?

Semper Fi!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:31:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Gooch,
No problem. I understand the trash that may come across here from time to time. I actually enjoyed having to think back to my time in the Pacific area (being 2nd MARDIV) most of my time in. Even on MSG they kept me in Europe (Ich Sprache Deutch), so my 6 months in Oki and PI was refreshing.

Does anyone have info on Accelerator rounds? What kind of Max range against a man-sized target?

Semper Fi!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

OOOOOOOOOPS!

Russ w/nothing better to do,
 

Did you check to make sure the base & rings are tight? Stock retaining bolts?

Is the mounting stud for the sling/ AccuShot Monopod in the rear of the stock "glued in" check it for looseness too. Then make certain that the lock screw in adapter base is tight.

Gotta be installed correctly to work!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
SUNNY TODAY CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 13:36:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.53)

On Handguns,

Bill, you will love the Sig. I have owned 2 of them ( P-229 and the new P-245) Rock solid guns, when I worked at Wilcox Range on Pendleton, I fired countless Gov't 9mm and never a failure. Most Sig's do not have a safety, only a de-cock lever, for the wife, get a DA only, just pick it up and stary yankin' the trigger

1911's, well, Colt makes a fine pistol, have the MKIV Combat elite, .45 is my favorite caliber. (reason I bought the P-245)I have had some work done on my Colt, but still in the 10 ring at 25yds.

HK USP.40, owned one, sold it when the 2nd cheesy plastic safety/decock lever twisted off, it shot a good group though.

But my favorite, S&W Model 28 Highway Patrol Model, good old .357. This revolver was in service with Mississippi HW Patrol for 12 tears before it came in to my posession, good shooter and with the original wood grips, is great for a good old fashioned pistol whipping!

That is all I have to say about that.

Kush out

Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.26)

It's true that most 1911's come as just a bunch of parts thrown together and not ready for reliable service (Kimbers excluded). But really, it doesn't take all that much to check one out and make it right. It's just a shame that they can't seem to do it at the factory. Sorry to say that Colts have been really bad in recent years. Para Ordinance is putting out a product so shabby it's a crime. To sell somebody such a piece of junk and pretend that they might find it useful in defending their life-- it's criminal.

CDC-- been off the shotgun a while. Probably time to get with it again....
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:44:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.143.20)

CDC,

You are correct on Colt's newer stuff not quite being the quality as their old, of course my 1911 was manufactured when they were still packaging the guns in the styrofoam/brown cardboard Colt packaging. I would never trade my "vintage" MKIV for anything, BUT if I wanted a 1911 today, Kimber would be the way to go.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:58:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.26)

Torsten...I recieved your e-mail reference the firefighting gear...my e-mail is FUBAR right now, can't get a message to go out, So I'm answering you here. Let me know when you see this...I won't be back at work til wednesday and I'm not going west to fight fire this year, so I'll be around.
Cory <Ranger9@hotrmail.com>
Panama, Fl., USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 14:58:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.117)
Cory,
Gotcha.Thanks for trying.
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
deutschland - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:18:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.157)
Pistola Country!

MikeM is a good friend, and his advice is always spot on. However, I gotta disagree a bit on the subject of using handloads for self defense. Assuming you are not using some special handload with a secret packet of mercury, dioxin, or some other such poison loaded in, the argument that the handloads show intent to kill is one that started with prosecutors who wouldn't know a handload if you shoved a case of them up his ass, and got helped along by defense lawyers who were even dumber than the prosecutor. Has the argument been made? Sure, they all have. Has someone been convicted for using handloads? Probably, as people have been convicted of all sorts of stuff where they should have been acquitted. But, the law of self defense is fairly simple. Either you are justified in taking a life, or not. What is ignored by the handload argument is, simply, when you shoot a person, stab a person, beat a person over the head with a baseball bat, etc., you are using deadly force. It makes no difference that you intended to shoot him in the toe, but got a center hit between the eyes. Either you had the right to use lethal force in self defense, or you did not. If you had the right, the law in the states I am familiar with draws no distinction between using handloads and factory loads. In fact, given the abilities of many people with a reloading machine, my money is on the fact that it could probably be proven the handload to be less lethal than some of the exotic and consistent factory stuff out there.

IF, and that if is the million dollar question, you were justified in killing a perp, that justification is what controls...not what load you are using.

Many of the folks convicted of killing someone in "self defense" are convicted because they use damned poor [read, untrained] judgment. Emptying 15 rounds through the screen door, shooting the guy who was standing next to the guy that deserved it, shooting people in the back, etc., account for many good folks doing time. You must remember, you only have the right to defend yourself against an aggressor. If the aggressor beats your ass into the pavement, then walks to his car and starts to leave, you no longer will be viewed as being in danger, and if you go after him...you become the aggressor. Fights are very dynamic, as MikeM can surely tell you. Once a fight "ends" though, the right you may have had to injure or kill the attacker ends. Get trained! If you carry a handgun, fly out and have MikeM school you. Don't believe every ad you see, there is no one better at pistol training than MikeM.

I won't go in to how a good teacher can be a very valuable witness in your defense...or else all my secrets would be out:)

Good luck.

Finally, on the subject of gunsmiths. There are many out there that are likely very good. I have had the pleasure of owning several rifles [AR's and bolts] built by Bill Wylde and I will say this...ain't a one of them ever leaving my place. I was talking with a guy locally who is a high master who uses Bill's AR and his "funny gun" rifle in competition. Thought he summed it up best in saying "why would I pay more for something less"? I just wish they would clone Wylde. haha
 

Old Dog
 
 

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 15:58:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Lee.

168gr (.493BC) computed TOF according to NSWC Crane is.
MV 2691fps

Standard Conditions.

yards tof
100 .116
200 .24
300 .374
400 .519
500 .677
600 .849
700 1.037
800 1.243
900 1.47
1000 1.724

I'll chime in on pistol calibers. Its shot placement and mindset of the badguy more than anything else. There are plenty of episodes of badguys getting hit with large calibers and keeping going just as there are with the 9mm's/.38's etc. I would venture to say that many of the .45 "instant stops" were well placed rounds and many of the 9mm "failure to stops" were shitty shots. (Many of these ballistics "experts" will skew data to make thier points) And if the dude dont wanna die right then then he wont, unless you blow his brains out. Even then its no garentee. Rod (Storm Mountain) has pictures of a broad in DC with her head blown open who still walks across a street asks for help then dies. Hunters see it all the time. BLow a deers heart out and still have to track the bitch.

So assuming that shot placment is the key if I can hit better with a 9mm than a .45 I'll take the 9mm. If you wanna STOP someone you use a shotgun w/slug or buckshot. Fin. Ende. The end.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:15:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.157)

Oh yeah.

Update.

Ken Hunter, I and a few others are rolling on the new organization/newsletter.

Organization is to be called "The International League of Riflemen."

Ken has registered www.riflemen.net.

I spent 2 days completing a sample newsletter and forwarded it to a few guys for comment. I have found that using a combination of writers and DOD news releases I can put together an interesting piece of "journalism". GOtta check on some copyright issues before this thing goes in the open. We are at an 11 page document with articles only. No advertising, no calender of events, etc. Just 5 articles that are relevent and an editorial. If I can do this in 2 days I know I can do even better if I can do it full time.

I am in search of more info on the Police scene.

I have some interest from some financial backers. Nothing like Ted Turner but there are some folks that are willing to help.

Guys, we can make this fly by Jan 2001 if I can get the interest. Spread the word to friends on the range, through the internet etc. See if the interest is REALLY there. Around November I will make a decision. If I do this it will be my full time thing along with TRGT.

Imagine a Republican president and a new shooting organization all at once!!

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:31:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.157)

Hi, Guys --

Anybody know contact information / dealers for Shillen barrels?

Thanks --

Mitch
Mitch <malexander@lg.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 16:59:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.35.1)

Mitch,

Try www.shilen.com. This it their direct site, calibers, contours, twist rates and pricing.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 17:20:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.78)

My opinions on pistols (if anyone cares): Kush is correct about the problem with the 1911 and it's clones. I would prefer to buy an Auto-Ordinance or Springfield and upgrade on my own. This way I haven't sunk too much money into a Colt and ended up with the same pistol. I, too had a USP .40. Never had anything break on it, but it would lose accuracy (as with the Glock) when the lower reciever became light as my mag emptied. I've never been a fan of the 9mm, but have to admit the HK P9 was one of the nicest pistols I've fired. I just ordered the Douglas conversion to .460 Rowland for my 1911-A1. I'll let everyone know how it is when I've installed and fired it.

Semper Fi!
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 17:58:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Sigs: I like 'em. The one I had wouldn't jam, just didn't like thumb cocking the piece. I left the Beretta 92F for the same reason. If you're smart enough to do it, or have long enough fingers to get off an ACCURATE double action shot, this is a great choice.

Mike: your point of using home-loads was well taken. I worried about this much, and so I asked the guy I was taking my concealed carry course from (the chief of police) about it. Now, I'm in no way doubting your word, I've read such things myself. I'm just hoping you were both right, and that it's a big city deal, or at least a non-Utah deal. He asked me why I would want to carry my own loads. I said "because I have 100% faith in my loads, and it's virtually the identical round I would buy but at a small fraction of the cost". He told me to remember what I had just said, and to say it exactly the same way if I needed to on a stand, and it would be fine. So I hope. The Winchester bullet load is virtually identical to their "police only" Q-whatever load. Same bullet, etc, just that mine is roughly 80 fps faster. It was an extremely close second to the Corbon load. I'm thinking that I can't afford enough hydrashok 45's to feel all warm and fuzzy that my pistol and mags are gonna work. Thus I load. Oh, and on pistol size, the best fitting pistol I've ever shot was a 1911 with a Ed Brown ducktail grip safety, a flat mainspring, and the short trigger. Get well soon, and tell that purty gal to take good care of you my friend!

Rick: naw, for all the good advice I've got from you, I still will buy the beer.

PeteR: Yup, they worked fine with 230 FMJ BALL! My Colt does too. Just chokes on ANYTHING else. Even my 200gr truncated cones (which I really like). If I were limited to 45 ball or 9 hydrashok, I'd still take the 9, and I don't like the 9 hydrashok! As for pepper poppers, there were 4 of them in Saturdays shoot. 4 rounds. I figured out the trick is to QUICKLY hit them in the head, and they go over every time. So I do. BTW, the Springfield jams on ball too. Sure was funny to watch the IPSC guy try to hit the popper too fast ;-)

Kent: good to hear it! I wish you the best in this endeavor. Unless the centerfold is one of us, I'll take a subscription ;-) Thanks for the back-up too.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 19:38:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

The Auto Ordinance 1911s are very cheesy. Now that Kahr Arms has bought them, I won't be surprised if they start coming out on a par with the Kimbers as the Kahrs exhibit a very high level of quality. They (Kahrs) do suffer from the same malady as most of the rest of the industry though-- too many corners left sharp. Like an ill-tempered Siamese cat, they'll make you bleed if you don't handle them with care. Other'n that they are (in my experience) totally reliable right out of the box.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 19:45:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.144.213)
All right, you guys have made me curious. And of course I only learn the hard way. So please let me in on this Kimber stuff. How many rounds are they reliable (as in personal testing here....) I won't let go of my 45's, because I feel like I will one day find someone to make them wonderful, and they're the best design there is. Really, if they're so great (which I'm hearing a LOT of), I'll pick one up, or trade a Springfield for one, I'd just like a little more info before plunking down my dough. Believe it or not, I'm slightly slower (via a timer) with a 1911, but more accurate at range (past 20 yards). Go figure. And I won't bring up pistols again ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
wondering about a new pistol, great to be in the, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 19:50:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Pistoles!; Sig: great gun in every way grip too small for this Injun's hands. The 9 is a sweetie but too small to use in a gun fight. Too bad. Sig is a sold weapon!

Glock; great for packing, smooth corners, idiot proof, no levers and other little things to have in the wrong place like exposed hammers etc. Faster than greased lighting to draw and shoot. There are some problems with reloads on this weapon .. the overall loaded length is critical and too short and you may have misfires. No problem on factory loads. 40 compact (not sub compact) is balanced and works perfectly. My favorite of all time.// The nine (17)is good but the nine is inadequate for serious gunmen. Just look at this way, What if the other guy has a .45 acp and knows how to shoot.

USP: a good gun with few flaws, but it's too large to conceal well even in the compact versions and the sharp things pinch your belley.

Colt; was a great gun inn 1911, but it's got to have too much work on it. Dongemmewrong! I've use em. A friend has one custom commander I can put 3 in the same hole at 25 meters. Wannasee? The accuracy of a good custom 1911 can't be beat....Cocked and locked they are fairly fast out of the letter but don't draw on me if I have my Glock. But they are too heavy for todays streets and quite frankly that ramp is a problem unless you really have a good gunsmith. I love them but their day is gone without extensive work. There are a lot of good clones. /Don't use a Gold Cup in a gun fight!

Beretta; Sweet shooter in 9mm doesn't fit in my waistband. My respect for a defensive gun but I'll pass in a gunfight.

S&W revolvers; I use em. The old recessed cylinder 29's 19's and even a 27 or 25 are bad medicine. Not enough shots today! Street gangs have more than 6 members....I have a .41 they will bury with me but it's not the speed I need!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 19:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Chaps,
Ignorant reloading question:
I just bought a Lee auto-prime.
The instructions state in several places that only CCI or Winchester primers are to be used in it.
Is this just marketing hype? -I wanted to use Federal.
(Apologies for such a banal question.)
Thanks
Matt
Matt <mt@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 20:03:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.80)
Matt: I've used Federals in mine, it's a great tool to prime with while watching TV, and those 5.56's don't make a difference anyway when plinking with a mini ;-)
Be aware though that the different brand primers are different heights. As for myself, I like Winchesters because they run through progressives easier.

And to all, I'll stand by my statement from MANY MANY months ago. When Glock comes out with a single stack 45 auto with a 4.5 or 5" barrel, on something like a 17 or 19 frame (dimensionally), I'll sell all the autos I have to get one. Does anyone have a contact at Glock? That micro 45 single stack just doesn't do it for me! I think they're missing a potential market here. Me and the other wierdos....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
if beggers could ride, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 21:02:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Gooch, count me in on a subscription.

Ken, just sent the Major a telegram saying you had some trouble with the washing machine and dryer. Said she would get to you when the wind quit blowing. She said something about your ass that I didn't quite understand. She did say not to use bleach!

On the pistolero caliber, 45 RULES, 230 grain ball. Keeps the ramps polished, feeds good, hits like a sonic concrete block and is CHEAP. Big hands, get HK. Dainty little hands, get a 22 LOLLOL. Still hard to put away the Model 19, no jams, cheap to shoot, and if nothing else the muzzle flash will blind the bastard at night.

Instead of an STG or M1a, going to save pennies and sell weapons to get one of Jerry's 308's. The supressor is just too sexxy to pass up. How many semi's does a person need anyway?
 
 
 
 
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 21:52:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.24)

I've used about every kind of primer they make in my Lee Auto Prime.
Brogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 22:05:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bolt: Well, she'll probably hold on that one till she gets home. Im the one here that has to take care of her gardens, pot-bellied pig, donkeys and horses....whew!

Weather: Man it's nasty assed hot here in Northern Va. Worst yet, the humidity makes it feel like an armpit around here..... but wait...I've looked at this entirely wrong... I should embrace this crappy weather as a golden opportunity to train - that's right - I should get my .308Towed, ghillie up, and sneak across the field thru the woods and practice mil'ing the construction vehicles working across the way....
I would benefit from: crappy weather, movers, and ranging a variety of objects while moving.... man - I'm so blind :)

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 22:11:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

My name is Aaron LaRue and I am a former Marine 0311. I served with the 5th Marine regiment until I was honorably discharged in 1993.I am currently writing a book on a Marine Scout Sniper and I have some technical issues on long range shooting and sniping that I could use some help with. I am also looking for people with experience in Vietnam, Panama, Columbia, The Gulf War, and other wars or skirmishes the Marine Scout Sniper has been involved with. I am not looking to steal anyone's personal memories and put them into my book. I am looking for professional advice and 1st hand descriptions of different combat theaters, methods of insertion, unit detachments and so-on. I know that the military documentation is so bland that it will not assist me in accurately painting the picture for my book. I do not have any money to offer and I know there aren't many reasons I can give you to help me. I have the utmost respect for combat veterans. I am discreet, and my book will in no way dishonor the Marine Corps or the Scout Snipers, in fact, I intend it to do the opposite. This request is all at your terms and I will respect them if you choose to help me or not. I thank you for your time.

Semper Fi,
Aaron LaRue
Aaron LaRue <gobragh1@home.com>
Dana Point , Ca, USA - Monday, August 07, 2000 at 23:36:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.0.120.187)

D19;
Going prone with Calvin just doesn't sound right ....now does it
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 01:13:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.183)
Thanks for the info Gooch.If I could only get my agency to co-operate as well I'd be in.I just found out about this forum you'llbe seeing more of me I have alot to learn,and this seems to be the place.
Thanks Again Lee.
Lee <lawman328@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 02:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.241.200.210)
Bolt: UUUGH? You've just decided to not buy a PowerStoke (or Cummins if you prefer, they're both Fords) F-350 with super off road suspension, and sell the grocery getter for a flashy, sexy Ferarri? What're you thinking? :-)
Just let me know before you pull the trigger, I was a little close to one before and got "surprised". Completely my fault. Of course, the same has been said about my flash hider! With you carrying 230 FMJ, better get that Jerry rifle LOL. You're right about the 19 though, never have found a good powder for the compact. That's the wifies pistol, and the entire reason I picked up the "plastic piece of crap" in the first place (she had it when we met) as I never saw hers jam.

Bruce: I think it, but you say it. Going prone with Calvin. HA!

Now then, where do I get a REALLY good deal on the Kimbers? After I sell a Springfield that is. Narrowed it down to the "classic custom", the "target classic" and the "classic stainless". The target isn't like a Gold Cup is it? First order of business will be to run a case of ammo through it you understand ;-) Any help differentiating between the three would be helpful, but I know one is stainless.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
learning the hard way, but first hand, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 02:50:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.248)

Lee auto-prime eats Federals like good candy. Dillon on the other hand....
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 02:53:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.101)
Matt-The Lee Restriction to CCI and Winchester Primers has to do with the energy of the Primer. Lee feels that the other brands are too powerful for the manner in which the primers are held. If there is an accident and the primers are ignited all 100 in the tray will go off. Pieces of the primers will fly off. Lee feels the potential for serious injury with the more energetic primers is substatially greater. I have never had a primer go off in my press but have had a couple get crushed sideways. My press has the optional explosion shield. At the least wear eye protection.
John Stranahan <JohnStranahan@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 03:18:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.182)
Bravo,

You have answered your own question. ;-) Mine is at around 500/500 ball & buncha 200 gr SWC practice, and 250 rounds Fancy Federal stuff. Total of 750/750 no problems. Not enough time in the week for too much more pistol stuff. :-(

Glock .45 is a step in the right direction didn't like the feel same as with the rest of them. tradionalist I guess.

Marty Fackler and a bunch others really smart guys on dead body & bullets can set you straight on on the pistol hollow points.
The book and authors you mentioned is right next to GWLE at my "throne" for +P expulsives or LOL convulsives.

Its all works if you hit CNS or major organs.

I get to carry an "anemic" K frame and +p 38s at work but it goes just where I want it. 'Sposed to get some kinda semi "super" pistol in Dec 2000. Probably qualify Expert with that too. Ho-Hum......
 

Bill, Bill, Bill,
With that .41 M, the muzzle flash will crispy critter the rest of the "crew" Nice Touch!
 

Pass on Springfield Armory, Fed Ordnance, et. al.
 

GO DIRECTLY TO KIMBER! (The internal work is already done!!!!)
 
 

Gooch,

Sounds VERY interesting, and with your guidance IOR should Rock!
 
 

Chao!
 

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 03:27:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.57)

I guess this is what happens when I don't check in on a place during the day. I miss out in a major way. I guess I was too busy out shopping for pistols today to be down reading the Roster.

It is somewhat strange that the Roster shifts gears over to content which I am currently considering as a purchase.

It's been a whopping 2 years since I've bought a handgun so I'm thinking it's about time. Both of the last pistols were 45ACP, one is an HK USP that I've beat the hell out of, the other gun is a Para Ordinance P14 Limited. Ofcourse both are big full size guns and for a guy with "Wookie Hands" like myself the large grips serve me well.

I only saw one negative view on Para Ordinance so far and I'm left wondering if that is an opinion stemming from the current examples that Para Ord is turning out or if that is an opinion derived from years of experience with the guns. Any long time experiences I'd like to hear about. A well respected local race gun builder preffered Para Ord for quite a long time due to the fact that he didn't need to do much to them, this was before he passed away about 3 years back though so things may have changed since then.

I don't consider either of the guns to be high milage yet though because with 2 45s I am splitting shooting time between them, leasurely shooting going to the P14 and harder use going to the USP, both get about 700 rounds a year. To date the only stoppages I've had on the Para Ordinance were while it was new and the magazine followers had a couple sharp edges that caused them to be a little less than what one would consider smooth. After about 7 stoppages after the magazine was down to 1-2 rounds left in the magazine I smoothed all the edges off of the follower while replacing the springs with Wolff +10% strength springs and the problems disappeared.
 

As for my shopping today, I was looking at 3 guns primarily, a SIG 226, a Glock in 357Sig, and ofcourse those purty little Kimbers. The Sig 226 was in 9mm and I'd really prefer the 357Sig, the gun itself is a natural pointer for me which is a plus. The Glock is just a Glock, just like every other Glock so there isn't much I can really say about them. The Kimbers are just so hard to pass by, doesn't matter how many 45s I have, I don't think I'd be content unless I owned half that Kimber line up. The custom shop Kimber that has been dehorned is just a delight, the price of the darn things carry quite a blow here in our shops though. The thing all these guns had in common was the overall size, I'm looking for a carry gun now since after a couple years of shooting the "chewbacca specials" I've earned new respect for small and dainty.

Combined with all the other goodies I want I'm gonna be busy for a couple years. The whole problem with all of this is California has made it a "Great Race" of sorts where I have to compromise certain purchases so I can try to beat out whatever hair-brained gun legislation is about to be inacted.

Just some of the long guns I want on top of the pistol choices I'm considering,
1.) bastardized Springfield M1A(the one with the Ca. legal muzzle break), this one may be added by name to the RobertiRoos 89 ban
2.) Bennelli M1 or M3 Super 90, may suffer same fate as the Springfield M1A. Also considering a Remington 11/87PS
3.) Remington Sendero 300WinMag, this one should be available as long as Ca. doesn't declare it to be too powerful to be sporting :(
4.) an Armalite AR10 24 inch T upper in 243 for doing some Yote shooting with 70grn TNTs

Crap, now I'm whining. I bet hit submit before I continue on this path of continous complaining about how much Ca. has screwed things up for us.

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 05:48:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.46.232)

Gooch...I'm still in for the ILS too, sounds great. UH oh...we're gonna get in trouble if we talk about Handguns again...I prefer the HK line of hand blasters...I'm especially in love with my HK Tactical, but I carry a HK USP in .45 daily and I do not find it too bulky for concealed carry even here in balmy Florida in a Galco or Highnoon holster. The 185 gr. Sabers seem to perform well...It kind of goes back to the old question of the definition of whats the best survival knife....It's what ever knife/gun you have on you when you get in a survival situation. Glock seems to be No.# 1 best seller in the Store here in P.C. followed by HK then the 1911 platform with Kimber being the prefered brand...We have had every flavor of Kimber in the store at one time or another. All have had high customer satisfaction. My Springfield was ammo sensative right from the start, and required extensive tuning to get it up and running to the point I trust it for CCW. The HK's run right out of the box with everything I throw in it to shoot. Same with the Glocks. Every Glock in the Rental cabinet at the store runs all week with little to almost no cleaning with all brands of ammo we stock and rarely have stopages that can't be traced to operator error, HK's are the same...I can't say that about any of the Springfields we rent. I have to clean it every time it comes in off the range or I'm spending way too much time listening to cutomers B***ch about it the next time it goes out. A little note about the HK UMP in .45...we rent class three weapons here and the UMP has roughly 7000 rounds of various brands of .45 fodder through it now and it has yet to hiccup. It has NOT been cleaned since we got it brand new in the store (on purpose, we want to see what it will take) Runs like a champ...I can't wait til the .40 cal gets to us!
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 06:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.8)
WHOA! Sorry, was that a run on paragraph or what?? It is late here. I'm out of brass to reload. Can't sleep. Think the neighbors will complain if I go out in the yard to shoot tonight? LEMAY I'm still finding brass from your AR in the Yard.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
P.C. , FL., USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 06:58:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.8)
There is a company in SG news (M-kspecialties) who offers re-welded M-14 receivers and finished rifles in semi-auto. A friend of mine (master welder) says their process is extensive and the integrety looks as good as new. Any comments would be appreciated.
Russ Egan <DRNRA@aol.com>
Williamsburg, Va., USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:10:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.29)
On Pistolas:

First, I feel that you are all missing the point when it comes to M1911s...the BEST M1911 on the planet is actualy a M1927. The Argentine guns that have been on the surplus market on and off for the past ten years or so are simply outstanding, if a bit minimalistic. Mine would feed wadcutters, empty cases, anything, and that was before I polished the ramp and opened up the ejection port. My father is a fair M1911 wrench and he said it had the best metalurgy he had ever seen in anybodys trigger parts when he was cleaning up the trigger and fitting the Wilson "Commander" hammer for me. If you can't get into one of those, then look at the Norincos, if you can find one. Aside from the iffy springs, they are also very nicely executed. Better than anything Unk Sam took delivery of in WWII, certainly.
Mine came out of pawn shop for $225 and aside from the drop-in grip saftey, remains box-stock, even the iffy springs. Runs with anything, perfectly, every time.

Anybody can throw money at a problem. Solving problems on the cheap is more fun. :)
 

As for the crusty old 9mm-.45 debate, seems to me that the 9mm does a very efficient job of developing energy and putting it downrange. In high school physics, I was taught that energy was "the ability to do work", and in this case the work at hand to tear up soft the max amount of soft tissue along an adequatly deep column through the torso. The place here where the rubber meets the road is the bullet, the tool that applies the enery to the workpiece as a hammer does to a nail. If the enery is there, then an adequately large and deep wound can be caused. The trick is that the 9mm has to reliably expand under a wide variety of conditions but not too much nor too soon. Also, it has to have an adequate mass of lead to push the expanded front end through enough tissue to get the job done, but if you go too heavy, it wont be going fast enough to have the energy it needs. Therefor, it seems to me that a medium weight bullet (115-124gr.-I favor the 124s, personaly) of modern sophisticated construction (Gold Dots and Golden Sabers being good ones) ought to work well most of the time. And from what little statistical data is avaialble, they seem to do just that. My G17 is loaded with 124gr. Gold Dots and I have a high (but not infinite) confidance that they will work nicely when called upon.

But a full-size, single stack Glock .45 would have a hell of a lot of appeal. :)

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:23:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Gooch:

Count me in for a subscription to your project.
 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 14:53:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Gooch, as I said on email I am in for the newsletter. Guys this is an opportunity. Very few newsletters of this type allow across the board membership. This is something good.

Old Dawg, I disagree with the use of hand loads for defense purposes. When I was in charge of our detectives one of the things I was saddled with was the investigation of Officer Involved Shootings. Our county has the DA's Office get on board with all of the shootings and this was something more than one DA made issue of. To quote a DA "Why would you handload when ammo is available" No handload guides show velocities as fast as the factory, so if you get more velocity you are pushing the ammo into the exotic class you spoke of, and going over spec pressure. Why do this? You gain squat. Just buy Hydro Shock or whatever, and hit where you aim. As said before equipment will never make up for training. Reloads open a can of worms that should be left closed. If you are a cop you should carry the same ammo issued off duty as on, unless they do not provide for an off duty weapon.

On Para Ord, I have had several. A limited that is as good as you can get! A P13 that is OK, but not close to the same quality as the Limited. I wish they would come out with a HRT weapon with the same quality of the limited, low price, and without the Bomar type sites. Give me some Novak's.

Bravo, the Springfield 1911's are pretty good, but usually could stand a little work. I am looking for a new project if you are interested in any trades.LOL If you get a Kimber just buy either the Classic/Classic SS, or big bucks the SS Combat. The first ones should cost around 600.00 and the last double that, but it is a fully built combat pistol.

On another note, many of you asked if I had OD Green Slings in 1.5". I was able to find some material and have an offer for this week on the Emporium. I had to pay out and it left me short so my labor just became cheap to get the other half off my back.LOL
Mike MIller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 15:53:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.64)

B. Douglas: just watch out for the 357 sigs when loading. The ONLY sig I've ever seen tied up on a firing line was in 357 sig. Now don't anyone jump on me, let me finish! The guy who owned it was a long time shooter, newbie reloader. Didn't get the shoulder pushed back enough is my opinion, then the recoil spring tried to resize it in the chamber. When the loaded round was finally extracted (under force), the casing had a LOT of shiney on it where it looked like it was trying to be swaged.

Tom: solving problems on the cheap. What, you been looking at my hotrod? Is primer grey not a fashionable color anymore? ;-) Whaddayasay we beat up on Glock until they design a pistol for us?

Mike: I'm hoping that the scouring of people after a shooting like you're talking about is not civvies, but LE as you were refering to. BTW, the hot rod 115 load is right out of a Speer manual (they call it 1300 and change). Now can you explain to me why cops have less rights than civvies? Not just in this, but in many other areas as well. For instance, a cop that I hang out with had a guy stopped for speeding. As he's talking to the driver, another car passes by and the passing motorist honks and gives the cop the bird. The stopped driver asks my friend if he's going to do anything about it. He says no, he can't be offended, but if you were, I'll go get him. You can guess where that went. As for your project pistol, I put less than 500 rounds down it (like 350?) before giving up on it. If you want it, let me know, elsewise it's getting sold at the next show to pay for the Kimber. I'm in for a greenie too, I figure it'll go well on the CAR, right? In respect to you, I won't put it on a mini ;-)

Pete: thanks for the hand, I do appreciate it. I'm gonna go look over that Kimber site now.

And next time you guys know something that I don't know, just cut me off and say "try a Kimber". Besides, I like "learning experiences".
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly the glorious, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 17:53:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

I own most of the guns (pistols) metioned by warious authors here, and I would like to make some small comments.

I like SIG (have 2 -226/9 and 220/.45), it is good gun for medium hands, however, nobody mentionded that the original site is not very convinient, I had to replaced it with night/three-dot one.)
Hk USP are good guns also, I have .45. In my expirience it had least recoil if you compare with SIG, Glock and espechially 1911.
Also, it is very accurate.

For people who have medium to big hands, I would recommend new Breretta 92/96 Border Marshall, with new heavy slide, night site, factory worked on trigger. Very accurate and balanced. I have it in .40 S&W, but they could be bought in .357 Sig or 9 mm.
HK <HenryK@marvineng.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 18:45:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.165.39.11)

Okay, I don't know if this topic has been discussed, or if it is one not talked about much, but I was wondering if there is any use for a .22LR as a close up 'sniper' weapon. If so, what round would be best to use?

Also, on another site, someone made mention to a hollow point cutting tool. Site:

http://www.hanned.com/~hanned/webc.cgi/~hanned/sgbtech.html

and

http://pages.map.com/gkiely/allard/cavity-maker.html

It is supposed to make a round more powerful. Any comments?
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 19:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Des,
You are looking for Cayley Carson at t18man@gateway.net
If you still have problems, email me and I'll pass the word to him.
Dave
Dave Lattomus <rl550@aol.com>
Wilmington, Delaware, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 20:48:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.188)
Gentleman,

I need some advise from the experts. I'm planning on getting a tikka 595 sporter and putting a Springfield gov 2nd gen scope on it. Looking through the list I find some negative comments on the Springfield scope. Any advice for a guy on a budget?

On the .45 issue... gota go with the Kimber!

Thanks in advance.
Jeff <japke@swbell.net>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 21:21:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.15.98.84)

Have been reading the comments about pistol preferences.

I've always been a big fan of the 1911 design, look, feel etc. Also, I've been a big fan of the Colt's. I've owned over the years two Series '70 Gold Cups. One got tricked out for IPSC local matches approx 10 years ago.

Had to sell both Gold Cups and a Sig P220. Liked the Sig, too. Didn't have a .45 so I got a Kimber Custom Classic, their basic model, for 150-200.00 less than the enhanced Colt Gov't Models in the store.

As is, the Kimber will cycle any ammo I give it. I appears to shoot as accurately as the Gold Cups did. Has some custom-like features that come standard.

My 2 cents,

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:02:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

How many out there are using any type of barrel mirage bands. Used to use them competitively in smallbore matches. I would think that in the field they would be difficult to keep on and would snag. I have read places where snipers are using them though. Any thoughts.
Brack <brackett@massed.net>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 22:27:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.6.68.48)
Pistol bullets such as the 230 grain ball can cause you problems because of that sweet nose that feeds so well. It will deflect on bone once the bullet begins to slow down inside the body. It can deflect on objects and hit innocents more often than the hollow point bullets like the excellent Hornady hollow points and many others. Hollow points don't expand much in bodys but they do tend to track better and not deflect so much. It can also simply part the meat and continue on without doing much damage. IF you value your life stay with a good sharp edged and large holed hollow point with a fairly hard jacket.
Pete' I like the old 41 because it's range is 200 yards and it's man accurate out there. IF the other guy does happen to have a rifle ...well I won't feel so bad while they are burying me. AT least I tried. Policemen won't carry that thing on duty but it fits nicely in a jeep. It's the cowboy way! Got a nice Javelina (close to a world record) that didn't know the range of a 41 went to 125 yards at least.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:11:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Ares-
Invisible Cretinizer?. . .i didn't get that model, however i did get the one with a transmogrifier on it, it goes from .308 to 105mm in .43 seconds, forget those arty calls!

Bruce E-
"Going prone with Calvin"? Sure doesn't sound right, you got me there, i'll keep that perspective in mind when I name my next rifle.

Dave-
Thanks for the info, much appreciated! Perhaps I will see you up there sometime.
 

Des
 

d19 <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
DE, USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.183.91.5)

Jeff, The Springfield will work but you can do a 3.5X10X40 mildot Leupold for about the same price. IT will do the job for you. IF you can do it all up front buy you a 3.5X10X40 and put the Mildots in later. Just my 2 cents too.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:14:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
IOR Binos, 7x40 or 10x40 for field work? 10x50 for spotting deeries at 400+? Any opinions?
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 23:50:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.40.85)

I'm not going to make any comments on pistols (like I said), this is a comment on my preferred round in the 45 ACP. Now, we all know that John Browning designed the 1911 to be used with a 200 grainer at 1000 fps, which I prefer personally. Only my 200 grainers are the Speer "flying ashtray"s. Or for those of you in other areas of the country the "flying ashcan". I use AA#5 and Starline brass (I LOVE Starline!!) and Winchester primers. 1000 fps is EASY, and a mild load. The solids I use for practice are 200 gr truncated cones. Love them too! I'd love it if the Army hadn't forced the thumb safety into the design though.

Break in for the Kimber: 350 rounds hardcast ball with lots of lube and bullseye powder, 300 rounds TC's with AA#5, 250 rounds of the flying ashcans, and 100 Federal Hydroshok. If it passes that, it stays ;-) Please tell me it will!

Tom: promise me an Argentine will do this, and save me big bucks! ;-)

Patron 'Lito: the "doggie box" came today, I opened it and WAS AMAZED. My wife however probably hates you now. Too bad, her loss / mess. Now I have no excuses, so I gotta go to Storm!
Mess Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Hmmm, maybe a Browning in 40...., USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 00:04:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.235)

Jeff,
I own a Springfield 2nd Gen scope and it has some good points. I would double ring it, though. The range finding is decent but time consuming and I found it works best in conjunction with your own range estimation. The calculated drops are reasonably close to 600 yards (which is as far as I've shot with it), with a 168gr match round (usually a Federal or Hornady TAP). If you're using it for hunting, you'll have to compensate if you're using soft-point or heavier rounds, though I doubt it would be much greater of a drop. Hope it helps in your decision. Feel free to ask me any specific questions you have on it.

Semper Fi,
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:08:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.149.173)

Bravo: The (damned) Army forced that stupid grip safety. The thumb safety is Browning's. It slows the trained pistolero down by a total of zero seconds. That same pistolero misses releasing the safety with a probability of zero. The guy will accidentally reengage the safety with a probabilty of zero. Take the training, then judge.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:13:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.73)

Gooch - your hotmail is bouncing like flubber.... says you got too much stuff in your mailbox... when you get tired of that s**t - give me a yell...

All: Was out up till about 21:15 EST ... trying to mil and see what I could see @ night. Seems like in some cases where your reticle cross hairs are too dark to see - except for the fat part of the lines... your eyeballs tend to draw that imaginary line across there for you..
Maybe I'm concentrating too hard and superimposing a reticle on the picture in my brain housing group... how's that for a half-assed theory?

Also - anyone have the diameter of the moon... There is enough visible this evening to know that you have a side-to-side shot... It is exactly 9 mils from where I'm at.. Yeah, I know - the Major goes away and I turn weird and start mil'ing everything I see.

Bruce: I don't think your mildot master will help me range the moon - but it's still the best thing since sliced bread :)

Ken :)
 
 

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 01:30:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Ken...

The moon is between 31 and 32 minutes of angle, depending on the time of the month (where have I heard that before!).

Finely got out (saw the sun for the first time in weeks)... The M70 '06 "Harlot" is incredulous, running around 1/2" for ten, and eating 190SMK's like rice crispys (nothing personal, UnDude!)... it's been 30 years since I owned an '06, and forgot what a truely great round it is.

The M24 is coming along fine. Took pics, will scan the negs and send you some:)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 02:04:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

"and Jupiter aligns with Mars" Moon phases, angles, geez! Sounds like the 70's! Oh wow man, rolllll another one, just liiiiike the other one, etc. Peace brother.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:23:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.189.120)
Well, thanks to Patron 'Lito, I'm starting a ghillie suit. It's a DIY type, and I'm guessing that it's Afghani (at least the instructions say something about a afghan, you know me, I don't read instructions) in origin. Now if I can get this "knit one knit two knit three, pearl one" thing down, I should have a rather nice diamond patterned suit not too long from now. Now, I'm not going to use the bright colors in the illustration though, looks too much like a quilt or something. Must have been for autumn in deciduous tree country. Hey, this isn't a ruse or anything to get Kent to be able to spot me easy is it? Heck, I'm already at a disadvantage, I'm gonna use a BFA if I can find one.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Sorry guys, been in the Bravo Brew, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 03:55:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.163)
On the use of deadly force:

The West Virginia Supreme Court has put it this way: "You may use as much force as is necessary but no more force than is necessary" to stop an attack.

I think that is a good rule of thumb.
 

On hand guns:

Novak's (Joe Bonar) did my P.O. P-12 and my P.O. P-13 (the P-10 is still there but I am hopeing to get it back soon) The only problem I had was they were a little tight until they were shot in. Must have been the Black T finish. But now.... No Problems. On duty I cary a USP-40 (Sheriff wouldn't let me have a 45) No problems there either and I like the fact that I can get a gloved hand (finger) into the trigger guard when the weather turns nasty. Also the checkering on the USP is the best I have ever found on a "Plastic" gun.

Stay Safe
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Trying to dry out, somewhere in Beautiful but extreamly WET, West Virginia, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 04:58:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.77.39.103)

Bravo and .45s:

I havent thrown those particular loads at my Argentine, but it (and the Norinco as well) has digested any number of 200gr. SWC on top of Bullseye @ 850 fps (my dads "puffball" practive loads), factory 185gr. Remington JHPs, 230gr. Gold Dots (my prefered defensive load, as assembled by Georgia Arms) ancient Remington 185 gr. full-house wadcutters and all flavors of ball as made on five different continents. And empty cases. Havent tried any ashtrays as the 230 GoldDots are my answer for social work. Mind you, the Agrentine is a purely military configuration gun as delivered, withe the little ejection port, little sights, all that. They can stand some tweaking. But it is made to a *very* high military standard. The crap that Unk bought during WWII is just that, crap, as compared to an Argentine gun.

A Series 80 Gold Cup had the most Rube Goldbergerized fire control arangement of any handgun ever made. More little springs and levers than the average pocket watch. I want no part of this one.

SIG P220: great gun with one downside: high centerline of bore over grip equals a lot of muzzle flip. Not punishng, but enough to mess up your recover time. The mythical Single Stack .45 Glock would solve that problem. :)
 

Pressuring Glock for a Single-Stack .45

I was chatting with one of the Glock guys at the NRA convention earlier this year and mentioned that I and probably a lot of other folks would realy like a "full-size 36". The rep said that, knowing how Gaston Glock operates, he would not be suprised to see one in the next year or two. The difficult parts of the design like the fundamental geometry of how the mag, fram and slide all mate up has been puzzled out in the deveopment of the G36. With the hard part done, there could be a "duty size G36" in the offing anytime Mr. Glock and his marteking guys decide there needs to be one.

Bolt and IOR binocs:

Have both the 7x40s and 10x50s...both have outstanding glass and optical qualities that would take 3x the money to beat. They compare favorably in this repect with MILSPEC Stieners. The 10x50s are BIG and HEAVY, the 7x40s are compact and...well, a bit heavy, but nothing like the 10x50s. :) These are very conservativly built, low-tech pieces of gear in construction and configuration. Some might even call them dated. But, by God, they do work. There is nothing low-tech about the optics.

The 10x50s will work as well as any 10x50 made for hunting, but you gotta' be prepared to hump the things. This would be a most unfun thing, I imagine. Personaly, I would look at something lighter. The 7x40s will work about as well, I suspect, and are a bit lighter and much more compact. If you realy want to be able to scope out deer at 400+ yards, I would look into a spotting scope intead of any binocs.
 

Newsletter: I'm game. Count me in.
 

.22 RF as "sniper" rifle round:

Only for very spcialized missions requiring ultimate stealth, and even at that there are many limitations to a .22's utility. Thats why there is so much effort put into deleloping subsonic loads in .308 and .223, .300 Whispers and the like. All of the quiet and multiple times the energy on target equals much improved chance of success.
 

-Tom
 
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 05:00:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Tom, LOL. Took the Para Ord down completely the other night and it finally dawned on my why the smith I knew hated tuning Series80 1911 triggers. Like you mentioned, them things have a lot of little parts.

Putting humpty dumpty back together again took a pair of tweezers to get them little levers lined up correctly. I noticed a nicer pull after giving all those little parts a nice clean job after about 700 rounds through the pistol. I neglected cleaning those trigger parts when I took delivery of the gun and I think some of the oils that were there during shipping became a little crusty after being mixed with some crud from firing.

I think I just got a new name for my P14, Humpty Dumpty. Gee, thanks!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 06:04:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.162.23.81)

Ken,
dark at 21:15 ????? Boy are you down south ! We have sunset tonight at 21:06 ! When we shot in Poland in June the range was available until 22:00. Which left us shooting just after sunset.

Try that mil exersise again and cover your head and scope with a jacket to keep light falling in from the side. much better that way.
Also give yoursellf at least 30 - 45 minutes of darkness to adjust for night vision.

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 06:29:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.168)

Guy´s

Mounting Solutions Plus / Ned Scheer

Precision Reflex / Dave Dunlap

any info on their products and customer service ?

Thanks

t

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.91)

Hey Bravo,
Maybe it would help your knitting if you get a rocking chair. Kinda get you in a rythmn. LOL.
Been meaning to e-mail you about some stuff but hard to get the time.
Hopefully soon.

John

Oh, geez, didn't realize the moon had a purpose, other than barking at it.
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 12:34:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.78)

Ken,

the diameter of the Moon is 3,476 km.

The average distance to the Moon is 382,500 km. The distance varies
because the Moon travels around Earth in an elliptical orbit. At perigee, the point at which the Moon is closest to Earth, the distance is approximately 360,000 km. At apogee, the point at which the Moon is farthest from Earth, the distance is approxi-mately 405,000 km.

t
 
 
 

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 13:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.203)

I wasn't going to get into this one but IMO one of the best pistols out there has not been talked about, yes I am ready for the flames, and it is the S&W 6906. When I carried a pistol all the time I bought one of these when they first came out and I shot it a bunch. It has "NEVER" failed with any ammo that I used. I finely setteled on Win. Black Talon but it will eat anything encluding empty cases. I don't carry anymore and the gun has not been shot for several years but I am sure if it was called upon today it would work just fine. I am not sold on the 9mm, I much prefer a big heavy revolver "HAND LOAD" to any auto round, but the Black Talon sadly has been proven to be a man stopper.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 14:51:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.65.241)

Whats all this with feeding empty cases? I don't get it????? I have seen pistols feed empty cases yet not hardball or duty rounds.
Is it a reduced weight training thing? Throw me a bone here folks!
 
 

Jerry Rice,

Thanks for Sharing,

Rumour is S&W 4006's are a contender for my duty gun. We'll see when they are "hot" in the holsters. be as good as anything else out there.

Smith's are good, Glocks are good, Brownings are good, Hi-Powers are good, H&K's are good, blah-blah-blah

Practice makes perfect! And thats the Truttttttthh!
 

Chao!
 

PS- Depity, them thar Novaks are Major SCHWEET, what else would come from a WV Master PDW pistolsmith.
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 15:14:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.196)

MikeM:

Not to drag this subject out, but really I think we are both saying the same thing, but for different reasons. This taboo of carrying handloads for defense does not find any basis in law. Instead, it started with DA's who were either too dumb to gain an understanding of the law of self defense, or too lazy to care. The genisis of the law of self defense is the natural law right that every person has to stay alive and unharmed, so long as that person is neither an attacker, or provoking an attack. Again, once an attack rises to the level where it is reasonable and justified that I take your life, it matters not whether I do it with a handloaded pistol round or a weedeater with a carbide blade attachment. IF my use of lethal force against you is justified, it is justified, end of story.

Now, I don't suggest people will be immune from a dumbass DA who can't understand what the law really is. So, I don't encourage people to carry handloads. Neither do I discourage it...if a person is well trained, not only in the use of a handgun, but in understanding intricate details of the use of lethal force in self defense.

The cases I am familiar with where handloads became an issue all involve either a questionable case of self defense, or an agenda in the DA's office. Trust me, if a lady ends a rape by an ex-con who broke into her bedroom by punching a handload of .45 through his bean, there is not going to be a problem. Usually though, cases are not so clearly defined.
 

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 16:43:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

Jerry; I must agree with you if it doesn't detract from your credibility too much. The Smith Autos are the most underrated pistols going. (don't know the other one you mentioned yet!) The big single stack .45 auto was an excellent but oversized firearm. Ultra reliable.
Dave; I agree with you also that is a good rule of thumb but a bad rule of law because it's hard to say just when an attacker is going to stop and just what is going to stop him. A jury left to decide what is prudent would do just as good job in determining when too much force was in affect. In this state you may protect yourself with or any other person with what ever force you need if it is determined your life or any other person's is in danger. It is abused enough as is by the liberal court systems. The Colorado "make my day law is clear but even that is abused." I know your heart is in the right place but these new age juries and judges tsk...tsk... gotta watch what you wish for. Too much judging after the fact on individuals and law officers these days. Laws should pull up short of trying to cover the situation absolutely. That's what juris prudence is all about... Bruce is that what I'm trying to say?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:23:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
If I may interject an opinion on the appropriate use of handloads in relation to defending ones actions in court: Bill R & Mike M have both touched on an area often overlooked- the jury. Be it civil suite or criminal court, the perception the jurors form can be more damning than the letter of the law. Jurors are housewives and businessmen/ they are human & no matter how many times they are told to stick to the facts- images of a blood thirster killer cooking up horribley specialized loads in some deep dark crevice of their basement(put their by the DA/Family of the deceaseds(?) attorney will stick.
As to heavily/home modified weapons. Best to buy it off the shelf at Walmart or from a company the average Joe has heard of & may have done business with. Rather a 21" barreled "Trukey Special 870" than a pistol gripped shotgun that has been sawn down in your basement.
It IS better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6/ better still to be acquitted by 6...
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 17:56:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)
Depity Dave: I like Novak's work on their full blown pistols, but not their piecemeal stuff. Everyone knows that the Officers ACP has a weakness in the spring plug, so I sent mine (completely stock except the grips and grip screws) to Novak's to have the Kings reverse plug / rod deal put in (a machining proposition). When it came back, the frontstrap had a crease / ding in it (moderately small, but very noticable!) and the Kings oversized bushing sets noticably to one side. Functional? Other than a burr right under my middle finger, it's functional, with ball. Cosmetics? NOT!

Binos: I have a set of 7X35's, and while I really like them, it's not really easy to mil with them, because of my "wiggle". If I were going to do it again, I'd get the 6X35's. 10X's? Not for me! BTW, Mike's IOR's were superior optics, I was really impressed.

Tom: muzzle flip. That's one of the reasons I shoot IDPA. Signed up as two people once, carried a Beretta and a Glock. Just to see which I was better with in a side-by-side comparo. End result? This'll amaze ;-)
Glock: faster from the holster, quicker split times, and less accuracy at range.
Beretta: slower from the holster, slower splits, and better accuracy.
A cohort told me that watching both pistols in recoil, it was easy to see why the Beretta was slower, the muzzle rose more! As for the good / bad accuracy, there was 1 point down difference on the Beretta(virtually all in the zone with both, but larger groups), and BARELY slower. "Full Size 36!" is now my new battle cry ;-)

Now if I can just convince friend Torsten to make a trip down South, and practice infiltration / escape and evasion on one of those Bavarian hops groves..... hey, I TRY to do beer right! ;-)

And lastly, I had the wifie call out to Springfield to follow some advice. Hey, it has a lifetime warranty, duh. I'm glad I got friends like you to drive these points into my head! They say send it back, and they'll GUARENTEE that it'll feed 100% reliably with ball and gold something or something gold. Wifie doesn't take notes too well, and doesn't know the brand names of ammo, but it was a hollow point. Golden Saber, Gold dot? Anyone have any reasons I shouldn't let Springfield try to straighten thier own stuff out? Of course, when it gets back, it's testing time again.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
knit four knit five, oh damn! unravel....., USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:00:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

09 Aug 2000

Additional “Tactical” rifle builders.

Very often here on the Duty Roster I see reference to rifle builders. Most generally I see references to Jerry Rice, Mike Lau and Norm Chandler, there are others mentioned of course but hardly ever do I see a reference to Tac-Ord and never a reference to R. W. Hart and Son.

I’m not promoting a mass shift to either of these two manufacturers, but rather a look-see at their products. I’ve seen and shot the Chandler rifle, as well at the Mike Lau version and I would suspect I’ll get a look at a Jerry Rice rifle this fall at the Sniper Rendezvous at Storm Mountain. These two additional manufacturers can build rifles to rival any I’ve seen and shot.

If you’re interested in having a rifle built, check with the well known builders, but you might consider Tac-Ord and R. W. Hart too. I’ve had two rifles from Tac-Ord and currently shoot a rifle built by R. W. Hart. (Tac-Ord is currently building me a third rifle on M-24 look-alike specification.) They all perform(ed) very well, easily in the sub .5 MOA arena. In fact, the Tac-Ord rifles shoot so well that I’ve not been able to keep my friends from buying them from me (one Tac-Ord shot sub .2 MOA).

This is a quick list of several features I’ve found for each of these builders:

Tac-Ord, Meridian Idaho (208) 288-1450 WWW.TAC-ORD.COM :

Small shop with friendly staff, remember thier customers and customer’s rifles

Staffed by tactical operators, personnel with a history of using tactical weapons in an actual tactical operation.

Committed to excellence and will stand behind their product 100%.

High attention to detail(s), things fit correctly and function properly. The rifle is assembled to be a single unit, not several pieces held together with screws and bolts. In other words, the scope base and the receiver are fitted to one another and the rings are fitted to the base and lapped for the scope, all pieces are fitted to one another.

The staff knows “tactical” rifles and can guide you in the proper selection of parts and equipment, but you are also allowed some freedom in what is being built.

The turn-around time is very good, for me so far it’s always been in two or three months.

WIDE variety of weapons specialties, suppressors, custom subsonic .50 cal rifles.
 

R. W. Hart and Son, Nescopeck, PA (570) 752-3655

Small shop that’s been in business for MANY years.

Primary business is to the BenchRest and custom hunting rifle folks.

VERY familiar with LONG RANGE shooting, both target and animals (distances to over 2500 yards)

Allow for nearly any configuration you desire and nearly any cartridge and caliber (338 Lapua, 6/284, 6.5/284, 6mm-06, 338 Hart, 30 Hart, etc….

Builds “tactical” rifles for several PA units and other Police departments within the United States.

Turn around time varies but I haven’t had to wait longer than 6 months for a rifle, and once had one done in 3 weeks (I supplied the stock and action when I ordered the rifle).

Friendly folks, know long range shooting very well.
 
 

Take a look at these builders in your spare time, I’m sure you’ll find it worth your while.

Thanks

Dave “Doc” King
 
 

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 18:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

Question: I just closed on a new house recently and I'd like to build a reloading work bench setup in the basement. Anyone know where I can get plans and material list for building something? Books? Web page?

Thanks...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 19:54:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

O.K., I've read the the info and great debates about the Savage Tactical in .308 & .223, now does anyone have info and opinions about the Howa 1500 w/ 24" heavy barrel(in .308 or .223). My local shop is saying it has a smoother action than the Savage, and with match grade ammo (in.308) you can get 1/2" groups @ 100yards. The rifle feels more balanced and less barrel heavy than the Savage, but I would like some other info about the Howa's.
Richard Stark <navelman@hotmail.com>
Fresno, CA, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 21:58:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.142.51.160)
Lads:

Couple of things:

Kimbers: I was all sold on them until I began to hear some negative things. Just had one here at the Academy (an Ultracarry .45). After 300+ rounds, the extractor broke. After 2500 rounds, the guide rod sheered off and went sailing down range. It may be that the Ultracarry, like other lightweight weapons just cannot withstand prolonged use. No comment other than that.

Re: Self-loads for self-defense.

I cannot disagree more with Mr. Ayoobs position for the past several years about stock guns being more defensible in court than custom weapons. I have served as expert witness on numerous homicide and self-defense cases and it has never been a deciding issue. It has been raised but has not been considered even by th 12 people too stupid to get out of jury duty. A home modified shotgun might raise an eyebrow, but given a righteous shooting, it will probably not be germane.

On homeloads for self-defense; that is another matter. If you were to put mercury and an epoxied finishing nail in a hollowpoint, that would certainly be looked at as an issue of mens rea or state of mind. Here at the American Shooting Academy and in all of my previous LE and military special ops experience, homeloads were not used as a matter of probability that a factory round is less likely to have a problem than a do-it-yourself round. No disrespnd. to you committed homeloaders. It is just sound tactical advice.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 23:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

Richard,
My Savage Tac. gets 1/2 MOA at 200yds with Rem. 150 gr Hunting bullets. With match bullets, I've seen it go under 1/2 MOA @ 100yds. I'm waiting to set up my reloader on my new bench before I take it out to 600. Sorry, don't know anything about Howas.

Orion,
On .22 sniping, I don't know as much as these guys do, but my .22 WMR Marlin model 25MN gets nice groups @ 200yds with CCI ammo. Its great for stalking around in the woods and shooting at silhouettes as opposed to the noise difference of the .308 (got to respect my neighbors' peace of mind, or whats left of it).

Des
d19 <desdichado19@hotmail.com>
DE, USA - Wednesday, August 09, 2000 at 23:23:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.183.91.5)

James: "committed homeloaders". Now that's a new label for me, and just as you helped me out with the "radical" pocket Constitution, I'm gonna take that tag too. I call it something other than reloads, because the difference between my plinking and competition rounds and my "for real" rounds is the brass and primer. Either way it's the same technically, Winchester primers, but with the game loads it's in Federal re-used brass, and the "my neck" loads it's factory laquer sealed in brand new brass. For exactly the same reason you stated. Of course, I also drop each round into a gauge to check. Now the odd part: I've only had a problem with revolver rounds (so I check them IN the revolver), never in an auto round. I guess I might add "contientous" to the "committed homeloader", but I'll take my rounds over factory any day, but only for the price difference. Didn't do too bad with the M-118LR clones out there, even in NATO brass!

Hope the knee is doing good, you might have to use it to kick Mike off the property. I think he's looking to bag one of your "large field mice" ;-) Take care of yourself, hope you're not slowed down too much.

Hey ghillie masters, what're the dimensions on your veils? This seems small.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
On a search for a reliable 45 auto, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 00:01:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.146)

Finish on REM 700P
I know this has probably been on here before but I can't find it. Does anyone know how to touch up the finish on the barrel of a REM 700P? The factory finish seems to be kinda soft. THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 00:28:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.152.104.152)
Richard,
I have to agree with you on the Savage FP. I get some really tight groups using 168gr. match and TAP ammo. I did find the original synthetic stock a bit light, so I dropped it into the Choate (Maj. Plaster) stock. A great improvement and well worth the money to Cabela's. It's a great combination if you don't have alot of money to spend, or like to do your own build-ups, (like my 1911). The only two problems I have are trigger pull (if someone knows of a good drop-in trigger please let me know) and ejecting surplus military rounds, which seem to swell upon firing. Decent ammo cycles smoothly.

Kush,
Are you from Buffalo or further east? Like Oswego county? I'm still trying to figure out if I know you.

Semper Fi,
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 01:27:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.149.239)

Please, your best advise.

Been planning to buy a rifle for the last 4 years. When I stumbled across your website looking for info on the performance of the M1A/M14 which I had thought I really wanted till I read article on your site debating M1A vs AR10. Jins put some doubt into my mind which had been settled up to that point.

They were right $2K's alot to drop on a rifle if you desire accuracy.
But over the last 7.5 years of 10 I've been in Germany (where there's few English speaking rifle enthusiasts and fewer ranges now a days) and too busy. Got the HK, the AR15, and the Garand, where do I go from here if not the M-14/M1A? Look.

Jins sound pretty much like you know what your talking about, thought ya'll could help me out.

I recently moved to RI from Germany and ain't getting much help there, gun stores and ranges few and far between.

Thanks.

CPT B
William Bajcz <cptbajcz@yahoo.com>
Middletown, RI, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 02:52:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

No no Smelly brew man!~ What James said was "should be committed" pertaining to you. Actually in my infinite wisdom I believe the best gun to use to shoot somebody under questionable circumstances is the favorite "custom target piece" Jury understands "target shooters" and "hunters" or maybe even that old gun grandpa gave you when he died at O.K. Corral, that's a nice touch.... with big accent on the T.

Mike has to be right about the reloads, why mess with it. Get some regular Factory stuff and blow shit out em! Why let em off with some sillouette load or piss aunt wad cutter. I never had a .41 or .44 Factory load that I could stand to shoot. They will take your wrist off. It's the least you can do is put the guy to sleep humanely and quickly and be politically correct. In a world that wants to use the "minimum amount of force only!" It's best to hit dead center with that minimum amount of hollow point stoked up factory kickshikker so they don't wheel his sorry ass into the court room to complain about your poor shooting! His whinning mother or wife will be bad enough telling you about what a great student and wonder boy he really was.
Do I sound jaded?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 02:56:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

"Doc" King forgot to mention Tac-Ord donated a .300 Win Mag custom rifle for the Carlos Hathcock Memorial Match at Storm Mountain Training Center this past October. My "glance" at it was filled with very impressive detail and craftmanship, and envy of the lucky winner.

Remember the folks that helped sponsor the event, and donated the SUPER raffle prizes.

Youse that was thar could not forget it, those that were not in attendance:

BE THERE THIS YEAR!

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 03:06:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.212)

IcyDeath....Reference Trigger for the Savage 110FP. Brownells carries a drop in trigger. It is manufactured by Rifle Basix, and is listed as the Savage Custom Trigger. The unit is adustable for pull weight, sear engagement and overtravel. Model SAV-1 is adjustable from 3lbs. to 1 1/2 ibs. Mod. SAV-2 is adjustable from 1 1/2 lbs. to 8oz. and it available for the 110 long action and 10 short. I will admit that I used to shoot Savages, they make great trainers, and I have passed them to my Son for his enjoyment. Get rid of the heavy Plaster stock and try Zero's laminate tactical stock, configured like a Mcmillan A-2 and they only weigh 3 lbs. the Rifle Basix trigger from Brownells retails for about 80 clams. I think the Zero Tac stock retailed for about 275 or there-a-bout.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 03:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.58)
William Bajcz: M1A/AR-10 has been hashed to re-hash death. If you want, get ahold of me, and we can go over it. I'll be fair guys, no, no really! Welcome home.

C'mon you ghillie guys, gimme the dope on veils!

45 auto goes out in tommorow mornings UPS. We'll see what they'll do with it. Lucky? ;-)

PeteR: wish I could get there this year. Gonna have to be next though. VACATION TIME!!
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the cold brewing capitol of the, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 04:13:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.142)

The following is an excerpt from FM 23-10. I find it hard to beleive that accuracy standard...what is that, just about 2MOA? Damn ...My plain old 700vs and handloads have managed to keep 1 MOA out to 400 yds. I bet it will go moa to 600....just don't have room. I would hope the military sees to it our men have equipment that is far above these accuracy standards. Has anyone fired this ammo in an accurized rig? I'm hopeing it is considerably better than 12" at 550M! Or am I deluded about real world accuracy?
 

2-7. TYPES AND CHARACTERISTICS The types and characteristics of sniper ammunition are described in this paragraph. a. M118 Special Ball Bullet. The 7.62-mm special ball (M118) bullet consists of a gilding metal jacket and a lead antimony slug. It is a boat-tailed bullet (rear of bullet is tapered) and weighs 173 grains. The tip of the bullet is not colored. The base of the cartridge is stamped with the year of manufacture and a circle that has vertical and horizontal lines, sectioning it into quarters. Its spread (accuracy standard) for a 10-shot group is no more than 12 inches at 550 meters (fired from an accuracy barrel in a test cradle).

One of Murphy's laws of combat:

"It's not the bullet with you name on it you have to worry about. It's the other twenty thousand odd labeled occupant!"

Thanks to all who responded to my torque conversion question and who convinced me not to use the ft lb wrench set at 5 ft lbs...Duhh what was I thinking?
 
 

Str8shot <mshockley@hotmail.com>
south central, Michigan, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 04:57:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.87.215.230)

After posting my Howa question I found out that Interarms is no more, and have sold the left-over parts for all their products(Howa, Rossi, Walther) to Guntek. I would still like to hear any helpful info about Howa's reliability, accuracy etc. Thanks Everyone!

P.S. sportsmansguide.com has Tasco 3-9x40 Mil-Dot scopes for $89.97
Richard Stark <navelman@hotmail.com>
Fresno, CA, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 05:17:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.79)

Str8shot...

The requirments for the current sniper ammo (M118-LR), is 10 shots inside a box 10" wide by 14" high at 1000 yds, worst case, from a test bed rifle.

Most of it is betterer. Not bad "for government work!".

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 10:39:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Howa rifles;' The Howa is the same rifle as the Weatherby Vanguard for all practical purposes. It is a fairly sound sction and could probably be fairly accurate. I've shot and used them and they are better than some not as good as others. Japanese made of course. But not to be confused with the Mark Weatherby. I found out of the box Howa is not as good as say... Remington ADL or Savage rifles. The action feeds good and the bolt works OK triggers are so..so. Blue and workmanship good to VG. Stock fit is not bad. 5 shots in 1.5 minute is typical to better than average for this gun. A dependable piece.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 11:59:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
>>sportsmansguide.com has Tasco 3-9x40 Mil-Dot scopes for $89.97

D&R has loopie VariX III 3.5X10 LR M1s with illuminated mil dot for $771. That's a MUCH better value.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:16:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.57)

Thanks for the replys on the reloading benches... The Holumber benches that Dillon offer appear to be what I need and it will save a lot of time and aggrevation from building one from scratch.

Bravo: Try Ranger Joes or Brigade Quartermaster for a veil. I believe it was Ranger Joes that sold a three pack of small Swiss OD netting for less than $10 that I use. They are about 18 x 36 which seem to be a good size for covering you and your optics and the netting is wider than mess so it is easier to see through and breath through.
 

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 12:31:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

>>sportsmansguide.com has Tasco 3-9x40 Mil-Dot scopes for $89.97

If you are going to go with a Tasco for economical reasons on a long range rifle, choose their Super Sniper series. Mine works great and ran $299.99 I believe from SWFA.

For those interested in the Choate stocks, Federal Arms (612-780-8780) has both Varmint and Ultimate for $107.95. Great deal for those on a budget.

P.S. yes I know another word for economical and budget is "cheap", but hey I get to learn how to shoot, buy reloading equipment, and keep the piece around the house. 8^) My "budget" Savage 10fp rifle now shoots CONSISTANT 3/4" 5 shot groups.
D. Hurley <DenHurley@aol.com>
Tyler, Texas, USA - Thursday, August 10, 2000 at 19:36:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.140.236.170)

Well, since it's such a slow day, I'll stir the pot a little. UPS. Ubiquitous Pistol Stealers. First time to ship a pistol since the "LAW" was enacted (more on that later), and it SUCKS! Cost me $36.85 to send it off, not counting the half hour hastle they gave my wife. The snotnosed kid there told her it was now a "law that everyone ship pistols next day air, all shippers have to do it". So, she quickly snapped "yeah, something about deterring THEFT, wasn't it?" to which she got a "no, it's not about that". This is the same kid that wouldn't let her send that AP to Patron 'Lito without a 20 minute fight, because "UPS doesn't carry ammo, it's too dangerous". Or let me ship my rifle to Geoff without a MAJOR hastle. Seems he wanted me to transfer it to Geoff through "gun shops", no mention of FFL's! To save grief, the AR upper and lower were "machined aluminum parts", I figure he'd call the cops if I said it was AR recievers. Now what makes sense: A stock to McMillan costs $6.85, the AR (with LOTS of bubble wrap in an oversized box) costs $7.60, and a pistol costs $36.85?!?!? No wonder I've gone to Fed Ex for everything that I can. Problem is, this podunk town is so small, there's no Fed Ex station, so I have to send my stuff through the warehouse at work. Since my job is more important than shipping stuff, I still have to use oops for my "prohibited materials" (didn't want to try to explain a riflestock). Now to top it all off, I called the supervisor at the UPS station, and he says they're now REQUIRING one party to have a FFL if shipping a firearm, even though it isn't LAW! Ship a rifle to Geoff? NOPE! Can he ship it back? NOPE! Not by UPS anyway. From here on out, I'm driving the 60 miles south to take EVERYTHING to Fed Ex. At least until they start screwing me over too.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
mad at pistol stealers in the, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:05:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.194)
This is my first visit to Sniper Country. Was given the address by a phone answerer at Thunder Ranch and was told ammunition was available at this sight. Am looking for .308 Black Hills 168 gr. moly-coat match for their Precision Rifle course. Where do I find it in snipercountry.com? Reg
Reg Cranford <rsc@crcom.netWas >
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:15:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.239.25.237)
So, the default .308 load is Varget/175 SMKs. No argument from me. Works fine. Now, what's the default .300 win load?
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 00:21:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.100)
Hello everyone,
My ghillie needs some renovation in some wear areas. Does anyone have a source for different types of material? I had been using jute burlap with some undyed canvas thrown in here and there, but would like something that "flows" a little better. I'm quite attached to my old ghillie (and don't want to "break in" a new one), so I'd like some ideas on materials. All of my old buddies are out of the Corps or have taken less troublesome MOS's (Family life and such) so I'd like a civilian source. The women at the "Yard Barn" always give me a funny look. Thanks for your help.

Chuck

Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl,, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:10:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.148.237)

So now we're "monitored" by the crew at TR. Cool. What's that make? Uh, about everyone!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Lupita, Lupita, Lupita!, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:34:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.160)
Lito,

What's your take on Gore's running mate from Connecticut? Just curious as all I ever hear 'bout him is thru the mainstream press. Don't get me wrong, I'm not considering a vote for them.

John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 01:59:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.171)

Well Chuck,

Your ghillie sounds as ratty as mine, you are right about the funny looks that you get from the fabric store ladies. I shook down one of the army/navy stores in town, they got me some rolls of 2" wide O.D. and tan burlap. The problem that I had was I had patches of minty fresh burlap surrounded with the old, tired stuff. All I had to do was abuse one of the local laundry-mats far, far from my house ( as not to be recognized by the management) It turned out really good after a spin on a Gentle cycle.

For materials, also try farmers markets, sometimes they have burlap sacks that they will part with.

Semper Fi.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 02:32:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.137)

Burlap searchers! Try your local feed and grain stores and also plant nurseries and landscapers. Some fish wholesalers down towards the coast has burlap also. Course may attract every cat in the neighborhood.

Anybody ever tried Night Desert cammies for ghillie suit? Will let you know how they look when I get done, hopefully this century.

One the dimensions of sniper veil. Well all I did was take the ex's bridal train and died it cammo. Looks kinda sheek shimming around in the woods.
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:13:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.65)

On the black hills you can contact Ryden, Inc at (304)446-5526.:-)
 

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:13:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)

Desert night cammies are kinda dark. The regular 5 color deserts work pretty good.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 03:27:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)

I'M CONSIDERING A GOOD RIFLE FOR MY WIFE(95lbs 5'2") FOR "ALABAMA WHITETAIL"
AS IT WON'T BE A SHOT OVER 150yds I WAS CONSIDERING A RUGER MINI-30 OR A MINI-14 RECHAMBERD FOR .300 WHISPER I AM ALSO IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MAY BE USING IT AS A DUTY WEAPON.
CAN ANY ONE SWAY ME EITHER WAY ?
7.62X39 OR .300 WHISPER ???

ghost20396@hotmail.com
Gregory Brian Harris <ghoost20396@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 04:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.12.188.113)

do marine snipers have to have good eye sight?
rc <mavrick472@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 08:23:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.177)
The whisper is too whimpy for Whitetails. A whitetail is a tough animal regardless of what some think. The Mini 30 will probably be the best of the two. Unless there is a compelling need for sub sonic in your work the 7.62X39 would work better there. I would use the same load for both jobs.
Something in a expanding bullet. And the recoil of either is quite
managable. Be sure to get the ranch version of those rifles so you can mount a scope securely. Even that close a scope or Aimpoint will be needed in the woods.

re' The Live Snipers (who have actually been to combat and survived)seem to be blessed with unusually good eyes. The dead ones didn't usually die because of their eyesight./In my research that is. Eye problems can be overcome in the shooting aspect due to the optics but poor eyes a sniper does not need. There has to be something else better suited if eyes are a problem. YOu have to see the turrets for one thing and blurred Mil dots will cause you to miss plain and simple.

Bolt; don't say "died" to a bunch of Snipers. Say "Dyed". It's more politically correct. Got any rings you could lap?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 12:17:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Guys,
If you are looking for Burlap, try your local Walmart's fabric section. They usually got it in several different colors, but I just use the "Natural" color, and dye it. For just a jacket/veil combo, it will take about 4 yards of burlap. They also sell Rit Dye so you can get just the right color for your area.
In their sporting goods section they usually have some realtree camo blind material that I dye green, and then cut into different shapes, and add it to the jacket and veil.

Regards,
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 12:56:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.211)

I also found most of the stuff for my under construction Ghillie at Wally World. + paint and stencils. CHEAP!
A local gunstore had Advantage RealTree burlap for about 5 bucks per yard x 54" wide (approx.) Two fabric shades light and dark.

chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
LEARNING THE ZEN OF GRASS SEEDING, BYGAWD, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 13:46:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.42)

Hey guys,
Has anyone used Camo'd burlap? I saw some at Wal-mart last night also. I'm looking in my Cabela's catalog now and they have 4 or 5 different patterns, all in 54" x 16' rolls. Does anyone have any preferences? Any ones that don't work well? Some of them look awfully dark. I have an old set of Cami trousers (sun-dyed in Oki) that I was thinking about shredding and throwing in here and there. Has anyone done this and had it look OK? Thanks for your help, I think I'll pass on the fish-market burlap. If I wanted my ghillie to smell like fish I'd let my girl-freind wear it!!!

Semper Fi!!

Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:26:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Burlap: Usually you can buy different camo patterns in 3 foot wide lenghts cut from large spools at sporting goods stores that are big into quality bow hunting items. This way you can cut strips to any desired length.

For those that don't want to spend the time making a ghillie, Custom Concealment offers a large selection from basic hunting up to heavy duty military quality. All you need is to fray the burlap, trim it here and there, then spray paint it for the terrain, tie it to your bumper and drive around a little with it and you have a ghillie that is just as good if not better than one you could construct. As far as natural camo goes, break trail through heavy brush and you'll have all the natural camo you need sticking to your ghillie. This is providing sound is not an issue. I use their light military version.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:46:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Seems that Glock is "monitoring" as well. HOWDY GASTON! Oh, the fun people we meet when we complain about the notable absence of the "full sized 36!". Did I mention we needed one badly?

I gathered that I'm not supposed to be making "little patches of color" in my ghillie, but rather larger areas of all the same color. So how large is large? I would think that something along the lines of a ragged quarter of the suit would be TOO big, but I dunno. HELP?!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Bravo Brew - the unofficial beer of Sniper Country, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 14:58:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Cory

Still finding that old Russan brass in your yard? That was a fun day runing around in the swaps down by your house. Well I got a new 45 and it's the shit. It shoots faster then I can shoot. Its a custom made colt 1991 A1 from SMTC and its the shit. The next time we hook up I'll let you shoot it.

LeMay OUT
LEMAY <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MICH, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 15:05:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

Greetings!!

Im the market for a scope and just saw an add in the GUN LIST for Shepherd Scopes. Does anybody here have any opinion or experience with these scopes?

They have a quote from gun test magazine saying they "recommend it over the rest" Are these scopes a magic bullet that aint so magic, or do they really work? Never heard any of you regulars speak of them so thought I'd get your opinion. The add is on Page 131 of the August 4, 2000 edition.

Thanks!!
 

Rick <Rick.Waltemath@hhss.state.ne.us>
Omaha, NE, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 17:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 164.119.13.9)

Alright, I know this is the "enemies weapon", but does anyone know how well a Romanian Romak-3 Dragonov would be as a 'sniper rifle'? I think they use 7.62X54 rounds. Anyone have any experience or knowledge of these? I realize that the Romak-3 isn't a TRUE Dragonov, but I don't have several thousand dollars either! :)

Thanks!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 18:54:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Can someone email me the name of a place to purchase Federal match ammo in 175gr 308. I am trying to find the best deal available out there. Who has the best prices??

Thanks,

CM
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:03:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 167.234.101.253)

Orion,
The 7.62x54R catridge is the old Russian/Soviet cartrige developed for their bolt-action rifle (Mosins, etc.) in the late 19th century, I believe. They used it through WWII as their main cartrige. Soviet sniper doctrine was explained to me as being able to hit man-sized targets, vice the Able sized targets of the US. That said, the Druganov and copies are reliable and weather-proof for automatics, easy to maintain and the Romanians aren't too shabby of a copy. The ammo is cheap and plentiful, but corrosive. I've also heard that the instructions for the illuminated-recticle scope are not in English. I prefer bolt-actions for sniping, but that's just me.

Kush,
Thanks for your help, pal.

Semper Fi,
Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 19:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

Orion,
More on the 7.62x54R Soviet round. 146gr. has a muzzle vel. of 2950 fps -- 2320 fps at 300yds, energy of 2820 ftlbs at muzzle -- 1740 ftlbs at 300yds./// 180gr. muzzle vel. of 2580fps and 2000fps at 300yds---energy of 2650 ftlbs at muzzle and 1590 ftlbs at 300 yds. With a zero at 200yds I'm showing a traj. of -4.4 at 300yds and -17.7 at 400yds using the lighter round and a traj. of -9.8 at 300yds and -28.5 at 400. Hope this helps.

Semper Fi!!!

Chuck
Charles Hopkins <IcyDeath@prodigy.net>
Orange Park, Fl, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:19:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.2.209.21)

As far as Lieberman is concerned, if you want to keep your guns then you better not vote for him. He might vote like a republican on some issues but as far as gun control he is as liberal as they get. I've written him on many occasions because he's my senator and he doesn't see anything wrong with registration and licensing. He also backs the newest push for taxing handguns under the same system as automatic weapons. Of course the tax isn't as high but you sure as hell have to register all your guns. Just some info incase any of you were actually thinking of voting for him.
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 20:24:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.81)
Sawry Bill Rogers, I ownlee gradiated frum Parkland High and East Carlolina Univercity and them teechers didnant teech me much abaout spelin.
 

Gooch, thanks for the poop on the Ghillie colors. I have some other ideas for you to take a peek at and give comment.

Am considering using 3 different net/burlap combos for three seasons. I am going to sew paracord loops on the base so that I can switch nets quickly. Just trying to figure way to secure to base properly.

Next thing. Going to sew "adequate and generous belly, knee and elbow pads in both my suits. Getting too old to get the appendages and the belly beat up. Probably going to cut up a sleeping mat.

Next thing. Thinking about using a Camelback Mule as belt and suspenders sewed on to the pants. I have one suit that the guy custom sewed a bladder/suspender combination onto the bottoms and it really looks neat.
However;
Have thought about sewing two 70 oz. bladder pockets on a custom suspender on the bottoms that will have the bladders on both sides of the the suit under the arms. Will eliminate a hump on the back.

Next. I hate thumb loops, cuts thumb or makes them go to sleep. Thinking of sewing cammo cottom gloves onto the sleeves in place of the loops.

Most definitely going to sew leg zippers in.

I am not sure about hoods versus boonie hats for head cover. I guess both have their place but I am concerned about both pulling off when going under brush. Any suggestions?
 

Next subject. I have come up with an idea for a field rifle rest that I would like to lay on you guys. It would involve a heavy duty air bag that would be attached at the same point as a bipod. A pivot plate would be attached to the front sling stud and another pivot plate would be attached to the bag with a ball type system yet to be designed. During the stalk, the bag would be deflated. When you got to the shooting point, the bag would be inflated. The configuration of the bag would be a rectangle. The inflation method is yet to be thought of. Any comments?
 

Next subject. I would really like to have an 8mm and a 303 for playing around with. Please give comments on the choices of old military rifles that would be available at a reasonable price.
 

BTW, the STG won but am also going to get an M1A. Found some stuff to do some trading with. Will just sell the one that I end up not liking.

Bolt Out!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.191.169)

Here's some interesting Lieberman reading from Gunsafe which is a Gun Rights group in CT:

Interesting how Sarah twists the truth into a lie. She says she fears the possibility that the gun lawsuits will be stopped by "legislative fiat" instead of proceeding "forward to the judgment of the courts." Trouble is, these lawsuits were brought partly to undermine the decision of the legislative branch NOT to ban guns, and these lawsuits ask the courts stick their noses where they don't belong - as Connecticut's Judge McWeeney noted last year when he dismissed the Bridgeport lawsuit. (Judge McWeeney's decision can be found at http://www.gunsafe.org/Other%20news/Text%20of%20Bridgeport%20decision.htm)

http://www.handguncontrol.org/press/hci/080700.asp

For Immediate Release:
 

08/07/00

STATEMENT OF SARAH BRADY RE: GORE-LIEBERMAN TICKET

(WASHINGTON, D.C.) "The prospective choice of U.S. Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) as a
running mate demonstrates Vice-President Gore's determination to protect Americans from
unnecessary gun violence.

"On the issue of protecting American families with sensible gun laws, Senator Lieberman is an honest,
thoughtful legislator. Senator Lieberman voted for the Brady Law, for the assault weapons ban, and for
the Lautenberg Amendment last May that would completely close the gun-show loophole. It was that
vote, by the way, in which Vice President Gore broke the Senate's tie, indicating again that the Vice
President's vote on always hard-fought gun issues can be a critical one.

"In contrast, Governor Bush's running mate Dick Cheney, who voted for cop-killer bullets and for
allowing the manufacture of plastic guns, is wildly out of the mainstream on the gun issue. Joe
Lieberman, whose dedication to keeping guns out of the hands of children and criminals could not be
stronger, reflects the views of his Connecticut constituents, but also of more than 80% of the American
people.

"The next president of the United States must decide whether to support an extension of the assault
weapons ban, which sunsets in 2004. He must decide whether he will do the NRA's bidding and support
a law allowing the national carrying of concealed weapons, or do everything he can to prevent more
hidden handguns on our streets. He may be asked to decide whether to allow the lawsuits of more than
30 cities and counties against an irresponsible gun industry to go forward to the judgment of the courts,
or to pre-empt them by legislative fiat.

"Senator Lieberman's integrity and common sense values are without question. His selection for the
Democratic ticket reinforces our view that, for those who want to reduce gun violence in America, the
stakes could not be higher, nor the choice clearer. We commend Vice President Gore for his sound
choice, and for the mainstream values of the Gore-Lieberman ticket."

Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:11:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.41)

Bolt: you're screwed. Fire both and you'll never sell either one ;-)

Rob: at the risk of sounding political, I'm having a hard time looking myself in the mirror lately. I guess I'm going to be forced to vote for bush, but to think that he would reverse the assault rifle ban, brady bill, the "it's a crime" bill or anything else is purely wishful thinking. He IS one of the elite, and anyone who reads the New American has the skinny. Man I wish the media hadn't screwed Alan Keyes, he's what the country NEEDED. I can wish though....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the proud, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:19:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

I know what you're saying Bravo because I'd vote for Keyes too but if it's between Bush/Chenny or Gore/Lieberman I think that's a no brainer. I won't waste a vote on any third party because that's how Bush lost in 92 and we got Clinton. Yes there are better people for the job than the two choices but if you think one of them is going to get elected you are fooling yourself. Vote for Bush and hope for the best. Here's a letter from Lieberman if anyone's still not convinced:

FYI, below is a letter from Lieberman, replying to a Gunsafe member who wrote to Lieberman about the federal proposal to register all firearms with the IRS. (For any Gunsafe member who is not convinced that registration leads to confiscation, please e-mail us for info on California, New Jersey, Australia, and England.)
 
 

April 13, 2000

Dear ------:

Thank you for contacting me to express your opposition to S. 2099, the Handgun Safety and
Registration Act of 2000, which was introduced by Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island.

I am not in favor of outlawing handguns or repealing the Second Amendment to the Constitution
of the United States. Instead, we must fight crime with tough sentences that are aimed at deterring repeat criminal offenders; and we must work to keep guns out of the hands of children.

According to Senator Reed, S. 2099 would require registration of all handguns, including those
currently in private possession, and would make it a felony for any person to transfer a handgun to another individual without prior law enforcement approval. Background checks would be performed on all primary and secondary transfers, including retail sales, gun shows, Internet sales, and all private sales.

The bill would also add handguns to the Federal weapons registration system already in place
under the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA). The NFA requires registration of all machine guns,
short-barrel shotguns and short-barrel rifles, silencers, bombs, grenades, and other specialized weapons. The NFA is administered by the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Lastly, the legislation would impose a tax of $5 on handgun registration and transfers, rather than the $200 tax imposed on most NFA weapons; and impose a $50 tax on the making of the handgun, rather than the $200 tax imposed on the making of most NFA weapons. S. 2099 is currently pending before the Senate Committee on Finance.

I intend to continue my support of effective initiatives to curb access of guns to criminals and
reduce gun violence among America's youth.

For more information on other issues pending before the Senate, you can visit my web page at
lieberman.senate.gov.

If I can be of further assistance on any other important matters to you in the future, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Sincerely,

Joe Lieberman
 

Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:30:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.41)

This is by far the best Sniper website I have ever seen! I got more information about Sniping and Snipers in the first half hour on your site then I have in the 17 years I've been in the military. Keep up the great work guys and I will definiately be back!!!!
John K. Adams <john_a_60477@yahoo.com>
Tinley Park, IL, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 21:34:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.236.196.21)
Seriously: What is the first powder/bullet combination to try in a .300 Win?
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 22:52:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.91)
CDC: you know I don't know squat about the mag, but I've always wanted something to shoot those 240 MK's in. I doubt that it would stabilize them though. If someone who knows says it will, that'd be what I played with! Since 'Lito's 30-06 does so well with the 190's, why not try a box of 200's and 220's (if the stabilization equation works). From what I understand, the reason the 300 mag was written off way back when was because of a lack of supplies, not capability. Now we got the supplies ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
playing the "what if" game, USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:14:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.190)
Bolt, if your talking about using military sleeping mat as pads on your suit - be careful. I tried it. Yes, it did provide great protection but it was far too stiff and rigid to allow proper movement. Plus you still get a bunch of chafing.

Next time I'm thinking of using volleyball pads that slip on over your legs and arms under a ghillie. I may try to keep them "fixed" and prevent any slipping with some kind of tape. (Not the kind that will pull of every hair on my body - hopefully.)
CCaspers <deltavkps@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, August 11, 2000 at 23:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.3.225.76)

Orion and Romak-3 "Dragunov":

First, as you noted the Romanian rifle is not actualy a Dragunov or a derivative thereof. It is more of a direct deveopment of the AK family and uses the Kalashnikov-pattern gas system, one that is not noted for promoting great accuracy. The rifles appear to be every bit as robust and reliable as one might expect and I have heard a few good things said about them being accurate, but the price strikes me as being high for what you are getting: a rifle of indeterminate accuracy coupled with technicaly obsolecent optics and featuring very limited logistical support for parts and that shoots a relativly oddball cartrige to boot. Oh, yeah: the mags are hideously expensive, too. At $450, I'd jump. At $700 I'd buy an StG-based FAL or a 700 PSS.

The 7.62x54R cartrige is of rimmed configuration and still soldiers on in a variety or roles in the former Soviet states and old satelites, includind various sniper rifles and the PK family of GPMGs. Ballisticaly it falls neatly between the 7.62 NATO and .30-06 cartriges and is noted for being capable of very good accuracy. However, most ammunition available is military surplus ball capable of only indifferent accuracy. Real match ammo to fit Dragunovs and the like is very uncommon in the US.
 

Bolt and MILSURP toys:

Well, there are any number of options on the market. For logistics nothing can compare to the M98 Mauser. You can get parts, scope mounts, triggers, stocks, barrels, anything in multiple flavors. The No. 4 Lee Enfield is also very workable but are not very common on the surplus market of late. For a sturdy, reliable Dispos-A-Rifle, a sub-$50 Mosin-Nagant is about perfect.

My current project: a M95 Steyr straight-pull in 8x56R. Add a 8x57 bolt head, reingineer the feed system and rebarrel to the more common cartrige of your choice (in this case, 6.5x55: already got the reamer) and a custom stock, and voilla: a oddball rifle that is more money pit than anything else. :) Oh, well. It's cheaper than slot machines.
 

-Tom
has always been facinated by straight-pull actions.

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 00:00:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

I am looking for M118 speciaal ball sniper rounds with 173 grain. If you have any information on how to get this amo I would apreciate it.Also I am looking for a new stock for my savage 10fp. I don't like the ultimate sniper, I don't know what it is about it I just don't want my rifle to look like the Dragunov SVD. I like th H.S stocks like the M24 systems. Pleease e mail me with any info you have. What are good mounts to put on a Tasco supersnioer 10X42m
Jeremy Darnell <mercenary848@aol.com>
Fayettenahmn, NC, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 02:55:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.204)
Rick,

I'd pass on the Shephard scopes, Gun Tests ain't sniper/tactical shooting related. Some reviews are good, some make me really wonder!
Leupold Tacticals, Bausch & Lombs discontinued 10x Tactical, or even a Taaa, Taas, TTTaaasco would be a better bet.
 

Daily WTF - I got a SECOND subscription renewal notice from Tactical Shooter........ Anybody heard ANYTHING new?????????
 

To shoot a Draganov copyski accurately you MUST HAVE a Russian Troopskie outfit! Gaaaahski!
 

Have a GREAT weekend folks!
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 03:07:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.47)

Delta Bravo ;-) figgered something out. It's not mini's or +P+ 115 9's you hate, it's the Illinois highway patrol! They use 'em both. Real, but JOKE! BTW, traced the deal about PT gods using them also. Came from Marchinco's stuff, team 6 way back when. If you believe that stuff.

Rosterfarians: heard something and need verification. The Guatemalan issue rifle = ?

Peter: you're a riot-ski ;-) Humor is nice, good humor is appreciated!

Tom: my 'ol Rhodesian partner had a Schmidt-Ruben, and I was surprised at it. You have a point, the strait pulls are nifty-neato. And it shot with my rack grade Garand just fine. So, with a good, new barrel (WAY down the line) and some stock work (bedding and sealing), whadda figure I could get (accuracy wise) out of a 24" Swede Mauser? I love that 6.5X55, and I got some nice micrometer sights that would fit it in trade years ago. Did you say something about a money pit?

Found out today via Browning rep that the Hi-Powers (I asked about the 40 specifically, not the 9) are no longer imported into the US. Since it's now or never, I suppose I'll be taking posession of one when I locate it. That'll complete the "ideal 5" until I test the Sig P-210 or Glock comes out with the "full sized 36", which is actually in demand.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
prepping for the Guatamalan invasion of the, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:25:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.156)

Bolter man;Don't overlook the Mosin Nagant 7.62X54. There are some excellent specimens for cheap prices. The Carbine is light and more accurate than you would believe until you shoot it. The 8mm Mauser 98 has my pick for looks and workmanship it's a great rifle. But the Mosin is usually accurate to 1.5 minute or better with junk ammo.

Rick; the Sheperd is a little shy on optics and there are odd parallax's between all those range rings, The view is cluttered but those rings work for sighting and it is much faster than MIl dots for the average bear. It breaks too often and costs too much. I wish a good serious scope maker would use the same system and build it right. Sheperd in my experience is arrogant if you you have a problem and assumes it has to be you or something stupid you have done. Until they change their attitude with dealers and users they are doomed to sell Sheperds in piss aunt quanities. I guess sheep herders just can't build good scopes!

Try the Night Force model with the ranging rings. It's much better all around except the rings are not located vertical and it is slower as is the Springfield. The Springfield has mixed reviews, people I
know and trust have praised it and others have condemned it. I wish I had tried it.

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:46:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

I mean piss "ant" not "aunt" well I had a aunt like that but anyway! Bolt see how you have corrupted my 3rd grade education! You lower our standards...tsk tsk! I want to report him PeteR! He's bringing me down! He'll have me mispelling Sheperd Scopes! And mispronouncing LeepholdS!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 04:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bolster Stuff:

Last time I saw pix on TV, the Guatemalans were toting Galils in 7.62 NATO.

I have worked with the M1911 Schmit-Ruben as well. Made like the proverbial swiss watch but too dang bulky and ejects straight out the top. Always wanted a K31 but too much moolah for a wallhanger.

The M95 Steyr, OTOH, is common as dirt and almost as cheap and has cheap ammo to go with it (albeit of 1938 vintage), is reasonably compact, is well made and of very sound design (good gas handling, from the looks of it). In many respects it is highly underreated. Major dificulty with the 8x56R version is the oddball bullet diameter (.329") and proprietary clips. The Germans converted a number to 8x57 at one point and you can get those bolt heads but not the extractor, so I am going to hjave to fab an extractor out of spring steel, Then I get to convert/eliminate the magazine box. Plan B: just rebarrel the thing to 7.62x54R.Clips, bolt face, everything will work with hardly a tweak. Only prob is I dont have $105 for a reamer, plus the money for the barrel blank. Gotta go broke buying a lathe next week (!) first. (woo-hoo!) That is what makes any of the above possible.

I gather that you would probably like more specific info than I provided on the .303 and the 8x57 gun. Various 8mm Mausers abound right now, mostly in the form of either Yugoslav M24s, Czeck VZ-24s and a bunch of German Kar 98s, the last two courtesy of the Russians. All except very late-war German actions will work very nicely. The Yugo M24s have a slightly shorter action, just enough to make is a problem to fit to an aftermarket stock. Personaly, I ordered in a VZ-24 from Century Arms a few months ago for a whopping $60. Gun is very nice inside and out.

As for .303s, right now, we are going through something of a dry spell when it comes to Lee Enfields. Ther ea few out there in the supply stream for about $100 or so in pretty solid condition. You might want to try www.aimsurplus.com They had some of the last I have seen for the past year or so.

If you plan to play with this sort of thing a lot, you might want to look into getting a C&R FFL at some point. It's nice to be able to buy a few things through the mail at wholesale again.

Sweed accuracy: I have an M96 with 29" barrel that I butcherized some years ago and scoped. It puts out 140 Matchkings at 2,900 fps into 3/4 MOA all day long. The barrel is dated 1903. Be impressed. Be very impressed. I know I was. :)
 

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 05:06:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

LEMAY.....Roger, still spittin' it out of the lawn mower. Lots of 7.62x39 from the AK too. Can't wait to try the new .45. My Bushmaster cycles the Russian .223, but accuracy is the pits.

ALL...has anyone had any experience with the Sellier & Bellot Match 168 gr, load? I picked some up cheap...er, inexpensive, and I'm a bit leary to run some through my PSS until I see if anyone knows any thing about it.

Ghillie Burlap...Wal-mart Garden center has a large roll of the stuff for about 6 bucks. and it is better quality than the cammo stuff you find over in sporting goods.
Cory <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Florida, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 05:28:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.74.93)

'Wing Supply' sell camo burlap, netting and such. I haven't bought from them in a while so they seem to have stopped sending me catalogs. Someone out there who gets the catalog please post contact info.

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 05:50:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.108)

Bolt: You've got some really good idea's on ghillie construction. You might want to consider the following:

I recently saw some marine ghillies that used detachable netting panels. They had different panels ready to go for different terrain. It was more of a modular system that used a primary base uniform. Not rocket science, but an idea that I had never thought of over the course of six different ghillie constructions! The panels on the one I saw were attached with small fastex buckles.

A note on pads. I've tried the volleyball type (under the uniform) that cut off the circulation and the hard-shell entry type (over the uniform)that screw up a good prone shooting position. They both help on a stalk but have very serious drawbacks. I recently saw (see above) some high-speed dudes from Singapore that were wearing pads by RollerBlade. The attachment was velcro straps but there were no hard outer shells. The best of both worlds? I haven't tried them yet, but intend to. Consider it before throwing down cash on something that just looks cool. Speaking of looks, you might want to get rid of the big, shoot me please, reflective Rollerblade logo. They hadn't. WTF?!

For everyone: Does anyone have ideas or methods of attaching a 60 or SAW MILES transmitter to an M24. I assume that an MG transmitter has an increased output just as the M24 transmitter has, to allow for max effective range. We cannot get our hands on the real deal so we are hoping to adapt, improvise and overcome. Watchwords of today's NG. Any help would be appreciated.
SSG Maries/ 2-162 INF/ ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
OR, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 05:56:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.163.142.12)

Bravo/Brewmaster, The PT Gods used them. Well that explains why they did not show up to the Carlos Match. Shame! Shame! Shame! on them. When you lose all your body fat it effects your ability to think. Me I wish I lost some of my ability to think/fat. Seriously the SEALS try lots of things and they do love the M14 so it would stand to reason they would play with a Mini f'd teen, until they found out its true inabilities. SpecOp guys like six have credit cards to buy new stuff with. They even used Tasco Scope/bought some never issued them.

SxB Match 308, I have a limited experience with it (60 rounds) That shot fairly well, not as good as Black Hills or Federal, but about like PMC Match.

LeMay long live the 45. I did not know you could get a SMTC version. We may have to call him Rod Smith soon.

On Ghillies, I have come up with something that I was going to show at SMTC this year but since I wont make it I will share it here. I took Swiss Sniper veils(four). Sewed one to the back of a BDU shirt. I split two9four halves) and attached them to the legs and arms of BDUs. The arms attach at the back sewn in veil and around the arms with elastic/fastex buckles so they come off. The legs fastex to the belt and around the legs with elastic/fastex. The head veil is attached to the back sewn on with fastex buckles. The five parts can be put on and taken off in seconds, leaving only the back part sewn to the bdu. This also has a Camel Back pouch. The great thing about the swiss veils is they are cotton fine mesh so they do not make noise or snag on everything in the world. I sewed a few pieces of para cord so I can tie in natural camo

Delta Bravo/Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 07:04:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.77)

Guys,

Went to WalMart last night, and they have burlap available by the yard. ( $1.48/yd )They had only threee colors, natural, white, and tan. In the past they had dark brown, and dark Green as well. I only buy the natural stuff, and dye it with Rit Dye.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 13:50:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.154)

Duuuudddes,

As far as I'm concerned the Lieberman thing is a moot issue cause he is running UNDER Gore.

GHillie padding. DOnt bother padding anything other than the knees and elbows and maybe thin padding in the pocket of the shoulder (as in a shooting jacket). REINFORCE the belly with codura nylon from the area just above the breast pockets (name tape area on military BDU's) to just below the knees (mid tibia) as well as the elbows.

You are not padding the thing with the intent of being super comfortable whilst stalking. Its IMPOSSIBLE to do that. What you are padding for is to keep your knees and elbows from disintegrating. They will still chafe and get red/raw etc. Its part of the job and you learn to deal with it.

Anything that binds your elbows and knees will increase your pusle beat in those areas and are counter-productive to shooting plus elastic pads will cause sweat to pool up under there and make the booboos worse. The hard roller blade pads will slip around, which is again counter-productive to shooting. After a period of time you will get some manly calluses in these areas and things get better. Make sure to treat your little raw spots with antibiotic creams and the like or they can get real nasty.

I have found that the best method for padding knees and elbows is to diddy bop down to a auto upolstery shop get some of the padding they use for doing vinyl roofs (its closed cell, flexible and about 1/4" thick) insert it in between the reinforcing that is present in the military bdu's knees and elbows and call it quits. I used a sleeping pad on my last ghillie and it works okay but I have seen guys use the upholstery shit and it is great. While hunting one year I tripped and fell on a boulder behind my house up here in west by gawd. I had my ghillie trousers on and when my knees impacted on the rock it was cushy. If I was still active duty I would put the auto upholstery padding in all of my field bdu's and rig up velcro so I could take the pads out to wash them.

Codura is the way to go for the front. It is low friction when doing the low crawl, is water repellant and you can get it in almost all of the military camouflage patterns. If anyone can find it in chocolate chip desert let me know. I used old nylon sea bags on my last one and it worked great since the sea bags are pretty much water proof (kept the treated side inboard by the way).

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:21:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.171)

'Wing Supply' (1-800-388-9464) sells all kinds of camo material for duck and varmint hunters.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:41:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.237.75)
UnDude: all right. Takes me a while, but you finally made your point. Check out the emporium, and gloat ;-) Doubt I'll ever get rid of the plinker mini, but I'm abandoning the CQB mini idea. Besides, with Browning doing thier thing, and Geoff working on the CAR, guess I need the cash. I'd hate to put the beer taps off, but might have to. Would putting off the beer taps translate into me losing intelligence / fat too? Guess this makes sense, I've heard "fat head" too many times. Bet it'll translate into losing popularity! LOL Whur didja get that nifty veil you had out at the class anyway, was that one of those?

CDC: McMillan says they MIGHT have my stock back to me by Friday. As of yesterday morning, they haven't touched it. I told her I wanted it back so that I could shoot on the 20th, leave on the 19th. Here's the deal: if I show up with a desert cammo stock, I'll shoot well. Assuming that I've had time to run some rounds down it and get the stock settled before hand, or can do such at the range. If you see my nifty greenie cammoed stock, all bets are off, but I'll shoot service rifle with it. And I'm gonna pester McMillan Monday and Tuesday too, until they would rather just DO it than talk to me. I LOVE thier stocks, probably moreso with the cheek piece that SHOULD have been on there, but thier customer service leaves LOTS to be desired!

Is there some difference between the burlap rope and the burlap cloth once it's shredded? Or is it all the same? Gots PLENTY of burlap colored twine / yarn / rope whatever you call it to shred, but I can put burlap cloth in there too if it'll help. Not looking for woolybuggar time though.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the virtually dry state - GAH!, USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 15:44:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.217)

Freunde,

Ghilly suspenders !

I canned my elastic suspenders after my first stalk with a fully loaded suit. The pants end up around your knees, if they don´t now they sure will once it rains.

I went down to the auto salvage yard and cut myself some seat belts sewed them onto the rear of the pants first, loaded up and then stapeld them to the front for the first fitting test. After finding it OK I sewed them in place. Make sure to cross them in the back and to get the angles right so they conform to your beefy shoulders. Otherwise they will slip.

Ende

t
 

torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:19:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.239)

On the "burlap" rope. I used a shitload of rope on my Benning ghillie and it worked like a charm for the time of year I was there. (Around Feb) It looked just like the dead grass that was prevelant then and with a light spraying of almond paint it looked like it had frost on it, which the stalk areas had.

Be careful though. SOme hemp type rope has a "sheen" to it. The stuff I used didnt hold paint very well. After every stalk it was almost all gone. It also tends to want to re-wrap itself and looked like a Rasta hair-do. After taking my ghillie out of a stuff sack I had to "tease" it to get it to fluff. I felt like a hair dresser.

But the rope is tough and lasts for awhile and doesnt absorb water like the burlap. The ropes we used were old climbing ropes from obstacle courses. Im pretty sure it was made out of organic material. Nylon rope is out!!! It goes blond on you. As it was my suit looked like a grizzly bear from behind.

Go here for a look at the suit. No comments on the website yet. It aint done!
http://www.aspiringtech.net/nobull/kentroger.html

Out here
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Saturday, August 12, 2000 at 16:46:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.171)

Question for pistoleros, off topic: If I purchase a Glock 22 (40 full size), can I strip the slide off, and put my model 17 slide on it, and run 9's with my 17 mags and slide on the 22 frame at will? Now the same question for the 40 cal Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92.

Maybe now that I have the "honey do-s" done for the day, I can get to work on the ghillie. Kent, that pic didn't do me much good, other than proving that the pic one has in ones mind is most often WAY off ;-) You got some pics of the suit or can you steer me to some? I wanna do it right the first time around. I'm doing most all of it straw colored, with some very light green (sage). A small amount of slightly darker green and some grey-green in there too. Should I forget the brown all together? It's pretty light out here.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
makin' ghillies and sippin' beer in the, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 03:41:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.224)

Bill B,
Did you check out the sporting goods section of Wal-Mart while you were there? All the Wally Worlds around me are selling Real Tree burlap "Deer Blinds". If I remember right, it cost $15.00 for a roll of 54 inches by 12 feet. The price goes way down after deer season.

Big John <BigJohn@1st.net>
Short Creek, Ohio, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 04:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.0.17)

Gentlemen,
Have a new-in-the-box Leupold Mark IV 16X tactical scope w/ the Mil-Dot reticle for sale. I want $1000 (CASH) for it. (And you better be in the Houston area as a person-to-person only exchange will do.) E-mail if interested to dherne@hotmail.com.

Regards to All,
Dave
Houston, TX
David P. Herne <dherne@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 06:50:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.1.123)

Sorry to dissapoint you Bravo. Thats the only pic I have from Benning. I have others of myself and students I'll eventually post on there.

GUys the bottom line on ghillies is to remember that there are two goals.

1. Break up the outline.
2. Blend with surroundings.

It is very easy to go from an outline of a guy in cammies to the outline of a chewbacka. Dont over do it. You can obtain the desired outline defeating effect with a minimum of garnish. A piece every 4-5 inches can do it to break up the outline.

When it comes to blending use natural camouflage. Use the veg that the AO presents to you. You know what a big burlap covered human looks like in optics? A pile of burlap!!! Use natural vegetation.

Next bottom line in case some of you missed this thread the last 200 times it has come up is that a perfect ghillie wont do you as much good as a well planned route and proper individual movement techniques. Guys have literally stalked NUDE and reached a firing position. I've had it done to me when on the OP and so have a lot of others. DUdes, you cant see through a tree trunk, boulder, side of a ditch etc.

I'm tired.

Out here.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 06:56:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.174)

Out here in God's forsaken plains it's a bit lighter but varied much more than even "By God country" or what I've seen of it. Some of that great looking camo it really fine up close but at distances men look like men in Ninja suits. It's hard to get things too light out here too.
I have camo that looks zactly like Sagebrush up close but it is too dark farther out. Something to do with light reflection of course.
We have a nasty fetish out here for stalking pronghorns with sticks and must be closer than 75 yards. If you have the outline of a man your 5 miles from all the pronghorns real fast. That thing about them being curious is true but they have 8power sight at least and pretty soon they ain't curious about bow hunters except to see how many counties they can put between them and you. If the camo varies, say in light and pattern say one kind of hat one kind of shirt and a different pair of pants it seems to work better. Keep it all 3 shades of light if you can. MIxing cane (duck hunting) camo and fall leaf pants with a sage veil and a boonie hat with burlap stuck all over it seems to work as good as anything. This would probably be true of green shades too. That Jungle green out here is a visable as a blonde in a bikini. I must agree with Gooch on not overdoing the ghillie mop. IT works to just put it here and there. I took some of the walmart stuff and cut triange pieces about 3" ones and sewed the middle of the triangle to a 3X5 square and made panchos with a head hole in one end.
You can crawl with the thing like a turtle shell and just barely live through a 110 degree stalk with it. IT's much cooler than junk sewed on a sold cloth. When I'm bow hunting I hang the thing up to a low limb and shoot through the head hole. IT keeps the bugs out if you use it right.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 14:41:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Bravo-
RE: G17 slide on a G22

If you want to use one frame for both slides you can do so, but the ejector for each caliber is size specific. If you change the ejector along with the slide it will work correctly.
Mictac <MicTAc@AOL.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 15:47:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.163)

Kent: disappointed, but thanks. I'm one of those dumb-o's that really needs to do or see to learn. As for streaker-snipers, well, guess my gut hangs down too much to even CONSIDER it ;-)

Wild Bill: when the plant I'm currently working in was built, it was done such to replace one that went up all at once. If what I understand is true, kiloton bomb forces, shattered windows miles away, and you could watch the ground ROLL for at least a mile (on film!). JUST in case, they put this one out in the middle of nowhere, and bought all the land surrounding it for miles. Since nobody can hunt on the land (for safety and insurance purposes) the pronghorns love to eat the well kept lawn. They have absolutely NO fear of man. It's common for me to walk within 20 feet of two does and 3 fawns between buildings most every day. And they never run, even if you make wild gestures (like throwing gallon acid bottles into a dumpster!). Heck, I wouldn't consider a speer sporting with them!

MicTac: thanks for the info, I wasn't sure if it would switch one way or both. Someone I shoot IDPA with carries a ported 40 cal sub compact Glock. Of course, ports are not kosher for IDPA, so on race day, he yanks the 40 barrel out, and puts a stock unported 9 barrel in the 40 slide (w/spring). No ports, so it's legal. It feeds out of 9 mags and functions perfectly (that I've seen anyway). Oh well. Just trying. Thanks!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
suffering a beer deficit in the, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 16:59:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.178)

Bravo-
Dude I doubt he is using a "stock barrel". Methinks he is leading you astray. Simply put, the hole in the front of the slide for the barrel muzzle on the 40 is too big for a Glock stock 9mm barrel. Too much slop/etc....m Perhaps he has a custom barrel by someone else?
Honestly, not to say too much on a possible safety issue, but I have seen 9mm shot out of a Glock 40 several times by accident on my range. The gun functioned but the bullets went nowhere near the aiming point. We did have one Glock get a 9 stuck in the 40 barrel unknown to the shooter and his next 40 round cleared the barrel leaving a mighty impressive bulge!

Hey Undude!!!
The boys at Sig love your sling! You should be getting calls from some police and military types that were out there.
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 18:35:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.59)

Mictac: I'm sure you're right. It was a stainless steel barrel, but I *thought* he said it was a drop in stock replacement. When I asked how the extraction was with the 40 extractor / ejector, he said fine. He's the guy that runs the IDPA in Spanish Fork, Utah.

And please forgive me, I really shouldn't but here goes (don't read this if you can't take a good bit of ribbing in good humor):
p.260 (paperback edition) of "Rogue Warrior" by Richard Marcinko:
"There was a lot to covet, too. The inventory that was piling up in our sheds looked like a lethal, high-budget version of Outward Bound.
Gore-Tex Parkas and boots. Parachutes.... ...Smith & Wesson .357 revolvers in stainless steel, so they wouldn't rust when we swam with them. Beretta 9mm automatic pistols. HK machine guns, with and without silencers. Stainless steel Ruger Mini-14s..."

Ghillie still looking shabby, but not like a pile of burlap.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:03:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.188)

John...

Gore's running mate has been a senator here in Konnecticut for two terms. Gore picked him partially because he wanted an "honest looking" running mate, but mostly because all the big guns like Gephardt, feel that Gore's going down in flames, and don't want to go with him.

For the first term (6 years) he didn't propose ANY legeslation... just stood around and did nothing.
He supported some conservitave issues, like school vouchers, SDI, and someother "conservitive" stuff, and has gotten some press over them, but in the past week, he has done a 180 on his past positions, and is "with the program" of the Democrats.

On 2nd amendmant stuff, he's a bummer.

He may not have much confidence in Gore, as he's still going to run for the State Senate this fall (to make sure he has a job!)

The local Dems are pissed, cuz he's also still running for the Senate, and that means they can't run anyone else... he looks "pretty" now, but I think he's gonna' look pretty lame as elections come close.

He's a whimp. He couldn't lead a bunch of sailors to a cat house!!

Bravo...
"Bravo Brew - "ONE OF" the unofficial beer(s) of Sniper Country, USA"
The other one is "Beaver Brew", from Canadia!

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:07:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Patron 'Lito: Beaver brew. How could I forget that?!? ;-) Mine is "readily available" though, which can't be said for the other. HA! Maybe Kevin gets all he wants.

Can't lead a sailor to a cat house. Where you come up with these?

Now you wanna tell everyone how well the Ol' Harlot did, or you gonna make 'em beg?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
one more time, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.188)

Bravo...

I already said how the "Harlot" shoots... do an EDIT "find" for "Harlot"!
Went away the last few days with the Rugrat, and checked out my 700yd range, and it's still there.
"Lowflyin" Jeff gave me a tip about finding good ranges, and this is a range complex out in the sand dunes of an old, closed down, SAC base, and leased by a pistol club... and nobody uses the rifle range... got it all to myself :))) it's time to get to work.

The AP hasn't got here yet. I'll shoot 5 for velocity, and group, and pull the rest.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 20:43:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.47)

Big John,

Yep, and I used it on the ghillie too. I dyed it, and then cut it into odd shapes then stitched it to the suit. Sort of looks like leaves. It is mostly "trial-and-error" to get it to look okay.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 21:41:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.78)

Relationship between distance, natural cover, and ghillie color is getting me cornfused.

What is the reasonable distance that one should stalk and still remain realitively invisible? If you have an open field such as Carlos did in the 500 yard shot he made at the genreal, was that related to the distance that he wanted to get to or the distance that he could remain concealed?

I went out in the cow pasture behind the house this afternoon and tried to imagine what I would be colored as to remain concealed. Since it is mostly tall grass and a few bushes[mostly combinations of sage and light green colors] I got really confused as to how I could make it through the woods to the pasture using a light color that would match the pasture.

Folks I can tell that this is one subject that I guess you have to be or have been there to understand. Next weekend going to put on the ghillie and try to get the girlfreind to spot me in the pasture.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 22:18:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.189.160)

'lito: Are you chasin' that sweet little thing at the convenience store again? She must have some wicked leg of lamb. Have you convinced her that "Beaver Light" tastes great and is less filling?

On second thought, who cares if it is less filling?

Only in Canada, eh? Pity.

Any of you guys in the US ever see the Molson Canadian beer commercial, "I am Canadian!". The commercial is a huge hit in this country. If any of you have seen it,you'll know why. For those of you that haven't,it's all about American perceptions and stereotypes about the way Americans view Canadians. The guy that stars in it is an old classmate of mine. Very hilarious.

Bye for now...
 

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, August 13, 2000 at 23:01:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 142.177.78.96)