July 1999

thanks

Andrew
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 00:07:11 (ZULU)

I'll weigh in on the H&K 91 vs FN FAL issue. In my mind, there is no comparison between the two. The FN FAL is the finest battle rifle in the world IMHO. The weapon can be tuned to perform to specifications far beyond the average to good shooter and is a comfortable weapon to shoot AND carry. The H&K is like handling a chunk of railroad iron for all the balance it has. I agree with B. Rogers that it is, no doubt, a fine LE special weapon. But LE types don't carry anything very far. I have a matchgrade FN FAL that stock shoots well out to 850 yds which is as far as I have shot it and it certainly made tactical hits with ANY junk ammo I put in it. The SAR 4800 is another preferred choice over th H&Ks for durability, balance and performance out of the box. None of these weapons are known for their discreet ejection of brass.

On ops in SEA and Latin America, I carried my bolt gun broken down and cased under my pack. My One One observer and I both carried CAR versions of the M-16 with 220 rounds as basic load. My One One did not carry any .308 and I only carried 20 rounds. I only engaged is selected target engagement and never in support of line ops where suppressing long range fire was employed. Times and mission parameters have changed, so my operational approach may be out of date.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 01:27:07 (ZULU)

Although I am biased, if I were you I would pay B. Wylde to perform his magic on an AR. Then take the AR and bet your friend your gun against his HK in a shooting match at 300 meters. He will surely take the bet, because of course the 308 is far more accurate than the 223 [?]. After you spank him, you will have spent less than $1,500, and you will own 1 of the world's finest guns AND the HK91:)

Whatever you decide, have fun with it...we are just renting this stuff for awhile:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 01:37:04 (ZULU)

James J., If a guy of your history agrees with me I cant be stopped.

Now if Old Dog could just come up with a SAR4800 to trade me. We cant have FAL's or SAR48's in the Peoples Republic of Calif. With some great boltguns on the way. A few AR's and a FAL/SAR4800 I will be set. Find me one Bruce I have several Sheep all packaged to send you in trade.

The Undude/Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 03:31:12 (ZULU)

Inspiring minds want to know.................BigGunn................

BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn.Country..........In the cool of the evening here in the almost burnt up state of..., Pennsylvania, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 03:39:12 (ZULU)

I've got an AR-10(t) that out of the box will out shoot the M-1A national match I sold to buy it. My best 100 yard group to date is 10rnds into 9/16". And I'm still breaking in the barrel. Not a single malfunction in 60rnds. For a semi-auto, I cant say enough good things about this rifle.
Bruce <BCqc@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 05:38:43 (ZULU)

B.Rogers: Unfortunately I have no pictures of my gun yet, but during the summer I will take some and scan them to a file. Sooner or later pictures will be available in the internet. In the meantime you can go to Dakota´s homepages. My rifle looks quite a bit like the Dakota Longbow, although my version is lefthanded, the stock is black and a the removable magazine can be seen. Also the scope mounts in my rifle are different. Sizewise both guns are the same, barrel length around 28", barrel thickness around 1", total length around 52" and weight around 15 pounds. It was not our idea to duplicate or copy the Longbow but when you start to develop a big 338 Lapua rifle in a McMillan A2 stock the end result is pretty much like the Longbow.

Nhatrang62: You spoke of Norma Lockbase. It probably is/was Lapua Lockbase. But anyways for everybody´s information: Norma, Lapua, Vihtavuori and the Norwegian Raufoss of Raufoss Multipurpose ammo fame have created a new company/conglomerate called Nammo. For the time being nothing has changed but it is entirely possible that some restructuring might happen within the concern. My fear is that Norma being the biggest powder producer of these companies may overtake Vihtavuori and that would be a pity as Vihtavuori´s powders are pretty good ones. Funny thing is that Norma produces also cases for 338 Lapua Mag and in a sense the conglomerate is competing with itself. In any case the idea behind these restructurings is to create one big powder/ammo/bullet company that can survive in international competition. Hopefully they do not forget us sport shooters totally. Nammo has home pages and their address is www.nammo.fi

Torsten: Thank you for your e-mail. I think that I will have enough sight seeing to do even though we can not meet next week. The last time I was in Berlin, it was May 1989, around six months before Der Mauer fall down. It is very interesting to see how the eastern parts have developed in the last 10 years. Last time I didn´t like the atmosphere in the DDR/East-Berlin at all.

Take care

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 07:53:33 (ZULU)

Here's my two cents worth. I forgot to say IMHO before every word I typed. So I hereby say that this is all my opinion and you have the God given right to disagree!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 11:23:19 (ZULU)

I'm looking for some help in choosing an AR-15, also known by some as a "mouse gun".

My current choices are among Colt, Armalite, and Bushmaster.

I'd really appreciate hearing from everyone on which of these companies is putting out a good product today. I welcome any and all information that helps me make an informed decision.

After 11 years in the Marines I'm very familiar with Colt's military issue but I've never worked with any of the civilian versions.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Semper Fi.
Brian M. <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
El Toro, California, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 12:27:34 (ZULU)

The M1A1 has served well, not because of the weapon -- there are better ones out there -- because of the extraordinary skill of the men tasked to use them.

Big Gunn: Guys carried their sniper ammo differently. I carried mine in a little case that looked like the boxes used to carry detonators. Each round cased in foam -- to prevent noise, no other reason. It looked kinda sexy too whem the grunts would come around and would ask to see the ammo the scary sniper carried, I would look around as if I were going to show naked pictures of somebody's sister and let them peek at the case heads nestled in their little beds. The shit we do. We never grow up. Thank God. Life is so much more fun for us than that other half of the species.

Bruce:

The AR-10s I have had come through the course, when equipped with good optics performed, as you say, superbly out to 300 and excellent to 500. Haven't worked with enough of them at 600+ to comment and I have only test fired them at 300.

Bill R: As Stephan noted. My FN beats the hell out of the neck of my brass. I have never reloaded but am considering it (more a political decision than one of anal compulsion). Is there anything I can do to prevent the brass getting beat up? Can I reload it-- you indicated it could be reloaded but case life is shortened? By how much is case life shortened? Can or should I use a Dillon 550 or should I go to a single stage press for this type of reloading? Anybody with info, please have at it.

De Oppresso Liber

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom's Country, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 13:28:32 (ZULU)

Don't get me wrong, I really like the TRG, ALOT. And I did dissasemble it to get a better idea of quality of construction...The muzzle brake was in the box by-the-way, I missed it. I like the way the design was executed. But I still think the stock shell is kind of rinky-tink. .338 LM ammo here is 95.00US. Ouch! At least that is the price offered to the public at the store. I got it at cost. I would like to try one in .308...They need to build one in .300 Win Mag.

I don't have a need or desire for a rifle in .338 LM. so I may not do alot of shooting with it. Hopefully Mark is going to order the TRG in .308. I'll be curious to test it too.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
On a beach in , Florida, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 14:18:49 (ZULU)

Ammo: For LE, I have a special vest that Blackhawk makes but is not in the Cat. It has swing pouches on the front for ammo boxes. It connects in the middle and if you need to go prone the pouches swing to the side and connect. Works well. I carry the ammo in the original boxes, inside a zip lock bag. They are put in the pouches, which I have lined with EVA Foam for protection.

Pistol, both team members carry a sniper rifle. It would depend on the mission as to handguns. In many cases I would not take one. If I felt the need I would carry in a thigh holster with a lose leg strap. When I went prone I would rotate the holster for comfort. I do not like the holster on the vest. I want the front of the vest free of anything. I have been thinking of a holster on the left side of the vest, hard to get to but out of the way.

Mike/Undude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 14:32:58 (ZULU)

B.Rogers: Attached to Wylde's AR's? haha Only guns I have that aren't up for adoption:) As for the Rhino...it is all in the shot placement...and the tracking.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 16:35:24 (ZULU)

I own several Colts and one Bushmaster, and I can tell you that either one of these manufacturers make decent product.I've heard a lot of good things about Armalite and I'd really like to own an AR-10 someday.

Befor you buy one,decide what types of shooting and ammunition you will be shooting.This may affect your decision on which manufacturer you choose.

If you plan on just plinking and using the weapon for home defense, a 1/9 barrel may be more flexible than a 1/7 barrel for using 40-69 gr. bullet weights.Colt's standard HBAR model is a 1/7 type.Bushmaster and Armalite have a 1/9 as standard.This may or may not be an important consideration for you.

If price is not an issue, then go for the Colt.They have the reputation for consistently manufacturing quality product.They will also have a hihgher resale value because of this.Basically you get what you pay for.

I personally wouldn't own an Olympic Arms model though.I've never owned one but I know some who have.Their ownership experiences were not positive ones.

From time to time it's possible to get a lemmon with any manufacturer,including Colt.I'm not aware of any of the manufacturers you listed having the international ISO 9000 quality standard certification.

I shoot AR's with close to 20 people in my local Provincial Rifle Association.Every one of them have Colts except for one Canadian Forces Dimeaco made rifle.

If you go with the most proven product you will most likely reduce your chances for disappointment.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 16:49:23 (ZULU)

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 16:53:28 (ZULU)

I have a simple question concerning "eye dominance".

I am right handed and left eye dominant.

Over the years, my skill at getting the bullet to the center of the target has been ok using a variety of pistols and rifles.

I've tried firing in all the permutations I can think, alas, to no lasting benefit (eg. repeatable).

Before I resign myself to perpetual struggle, I thought I would ask if any of you have a suggestion; personal experience with being left eye dominant and right handed preferred, but I'd like to hear what anyone has to say.

And if this has been covered before at this forum, tell me when and I will go search again with both eyes open.

Thank-you for your consideration,

Duncan

Duncan C. <duncan@jps.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 17:12:44 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info. When I get a 550 (on my list of toys) I'll be back for the loading data.

Bill's comment on the AK is dead on in CQB conditions. I do not consider th AK a
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom Country, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:39:06 (ZULU)

I also am left hand, right eye dominant.

If you want to shoot with your right eye place a small piece of clear Scotch tape on the left lens of your shooting glasses. Place it so as to occlude the front sight on rifle or shotgun with iron sights. Make it small enough not to obscure peripheral vision. If you want to shoot with your left eye you have to teach your body to shoot backwards. This takes about 2000-3000 rounds and will help your “normal” right handed form. Have some fun with this. G o into your local yokel gun shop and shoulder a right handed bolt action rifle to your left shoulder and work the bolt with your right hand. This drives the guys behind the counter nuts. Most of them will try to sell you a left handed action but explain your problem and they probably wont know what to do.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:39:31 (ZULU)

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:41:50 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info. When I get a 550 (on my list of toys) I'll be back for the loading data.

Bill's comment on the AK is dead on in CQB conditions. I do not consider th AK a "battle rifle". The M-16 which is a close battle weapon (<300 yards), the AK is similar without the accuracy but delivering a better punch and having more durability. The M14, M1 and the FN are what I classify as battle rifles (engagement out to 600m without optics, durable, balanced, etc). I hope I am not causing a storm here. I will say that the ergonomics of the M16 are superior to any weapon on the market today. It is precisely the ergonomics of the M16 and the very poor ergonomics of the AK, especially as related to the position of the safety, that I am here on this site today. My adversary is in the land of Buddah. Another reason why here on the ranch, I drag around an SKS because of the quick safety release.

Mike: When you come out here, bring that vest, sounds sensible. Your comment about the thigh holster shows experience. On the chest holster thing: Without getting more longwinded than I have been (once a professor, always a professor), Galco (perish the thought) made a chest holster that I carry because it can be quickly shiftd under the left arm or around to the back to allow for good prone position acquisition. I like my SAS holster, but it is awkward when running as it just "feels" awkward, especially if loose. I also carry the thigh holster on the left leg to keep it out of the way. Of course I can shoot left handed. You probably have to get permission to do so in the People's Republic of Caliprunia:-)

De Oppresso Liber

PS. Trouble with the server. Sorry about the incomplete doublepost.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom Country, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:42:15 (ZULU)

Reloading FAL-brass: I toss away the brass that has a really sharp dent in it (like a real fold) and the rest is reloaded untill the neck breaks. This is for my plinking rounds. Don't do much realoding for plinking though, as surplus ammo is way cheap over here right now. When shooting for accuracy, my FAL is set to grenade-mode and I cycle it manually, using match-brass. I love that feature!!!
I hate to tell you guys, but FAL's over here are DARN CHEAP! Do something about that administration of yours and I'll bring a crate of them over when I go to SMTC next year. I can get an original FN-made surplus FAL for about $600 and Steyrs and L1A1's for $500!

L8er!

Hope you are not feeling to bad now....

GUN CONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!
Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Right-handed, Left-eye dominant, is a bitch! - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 20:17:33 (ZULU)

Old Dog, you know you trained all the sheep to say "Bruceeeeee, you my dadddddddy". I'll send the guns to you just as soon as I find a big enough hammer to straighten the bbls. I have been out all day shooting Ground Squirrels with my 300Win. Longest shot was only five hundred with the 220's. Deans Data Book is right on. Squirrels at 500 are still not looking good after a 220 goes in and out. This paragraph is not intended to offend anyone. If you dont like please tune to another one until you find something about flowers or something you do like.

Undude out
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 21:12:40 (ZULU)

Poor little-itty-bitty gwoundy squirrely-wirrlys AND with a MAGNUM SNIPER RIFLE!

And to think people at the range though I was nuts hunting grasshoppers with an 1100 riot gun OO buck combo in 100 temp weather.
Ha-HA! HEE-HEE! HO-HO!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 21:24:42 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 22:42:51 (ZULU)

Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 23:14:07 (ZULU)

My reasons for purchasing a Bushmaster. Good quality, they are the current military contractor and the takedown pin and the pins in the reciever are the standard size. Colt uses different size pins for polical correctness that makes some custom parts hard to come by. Buy your magazines now, their prices are climbing.

Lovin' Mausers in
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 00:11:06 (ZULU)

JJarrett: I am interested in what you have done to the FAL, barrel-wise. Let me know when you get time.

Speaking of FAL's, picked up a case of sealed FAL mags awhile back...plastic wrap says 4/63...perfect shape. A thing of beauty.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 02:09:39 (ZULU)

Has anyone seen or bought one of the new Leupold illuminated reticle scopes, would you recommend it over the standard reticle scope?

C'mon, throw me a fricken bone here people.
Tailback <darrenjones@linkport.com>
Oregon, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 03:01:47 (ZULU)

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 11:27:33 (ZULU)

I would guess that the publics "understanding" of firearms, and the hatchet job the uneducated (but very "pretty") anchor women on the 6 PM news would do on an LE oficer that used "Dum-Dum" bullets, or "Deadly hollow points", on a helpless robber at the 7-11, who was "only" armed with a .38 revolver, would leave the poor LE bastard in civil court for the rest of his life... and by using Military approved rounds that are designed to "wound" instead of kill, that would be an out... in spite of the fact that the bullet bounced around the 7-11 for ten minutes, taking out a women, a four year old child, and the new soda machine.

Old Dog... is there any case history on this issue, or on LE using handloads, or is it fear of being the first one to defend the issue??

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 13:14:25 (ZULU)

I like the AK also. I like the 7.62x39 for alot of reasons. You can get better accuracy out of that rifle by handloading US componants. But you guys already know that. I have a shiPload of the Russian and East German ammo for my AK and Mini-30 and accuracy leaves alot to be desired. One nice thing about it though, you don't have to police the empty cases and you can shoot all day for pennies. Not to offend Mr. Ruger, but my Hungarian AK (SA-85) is more accurate with the same ammo than my Mini-30.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
P.C., FL, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 14:08:42 (ZULU)

FN-FAL vs. AK-47: I'll go into the weekend, thinking of how this discussion ever wandered from a piece of art (FN-FAL) to a tool (AK).

Something for those of you who are going to Kosovo: BEWARE OF BOOBYTRAPPED AK-47 MAGAZINES. These appeared during the Bosnia conflict and are quite likely to be found in Kosovo. The device is a regular AK magzine with a few live rounds in it. Below the follower is a shortened spring that sits on an explosive device. The fuse is activated on relief of pressure, i.e. when the rounds are stripped from the magazine, either by shooting OR unloading. This type of boobytrap is issued with a safety-pin that sits in a hole somewhere halfway down the mag. Once the pin is pulled, the boobytrap CAN NOT BE DISARMED! The pin can't be placed back and any relief of pressure will cause the charge to detonate. There's nothing on the outside of the magazine that will indicate it's a boobytrap, other then that small hole for the safety-pin. I have a drawing of this device at home that I can scan and e-mail to those of you who are interested. I'll include the complete translated text in the e-mail. Just send me a message.
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
WHoever compares an FN-FAL with an AK is nuts, but that's just my opnion...., what do you think? - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 15:21:43 (ZULU)

Wrap a scarf around your nose and mouth. The cloth will act as a filter and makes you look like a desperado.
During Vietnam U.S. Special Forces would remove some of the powder from AK-47 cartridges and replace it with high explosive but they had to stop because to many GIs were blowing themselves up. Same effect as the device you describe but with a lot less work.
Just remember the first rule of traps and mines “if you don’t half to touch it then don’t”

Happy independence day !
Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 16:07:25 (ZULU)

I have done nothing to the FN except abuse it. Hell, I don't even really understand the gas system adjustment as I have no manual and subscribe to the notion that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Besides, if it is any tool other than horseshoeing tools that I touch, they hide the women, kids and small animals.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom Country, New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 16:36:44 (ZULU)

The only relevant question, in my opinion, is: Should the officer have shot the guy? If so, game over. Once justified, the bullet used becomes irrelevant and there should be no fear in trying those cases. Now you see why I am not in politics? haha

Old [unelectable] Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 18:26:50 (ZULU)

That is all...

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 18:31:09 (ZULU)

We carried 80-100 rounds standard for the M40A1. Looking back, that seems excessive,especially after James Jarett posted that he carried 20. I guess we were all hoping to pin down an entire company or something.

As for a pistol, I carried my beretta in the regular holster, but I bought the rigid hip extender. I attached it directly to my trouser belt. At first, it flopped a little, but then I put the tie-down strap through the part of the holster back where the metal attachment part is, rather than leaving it sliding through the nylon loop. That better secured the strap, stopped it from sliding, and raised the strap, which gave the added bonus of being able to use my right cargo pocket again. I could drop my h-harness (LBE) and still have 20 rounds and pistol on me.

Both James Jarrett and Mike the Undude mentioned they carry their pistols on their left. You don't come out and say it, but it looks like you both normally shoot right handed. I can't figure out why you switch sides. What advantages have you found in carrying your pistols on your off-hand side? Please don't think of that question as criticism, just trying to learn why you do that.

One last note on holsters- I'm a street cop now, and carry my pistol in a level 3 holster right on my belt line. I don't think a drop belt holster would be a good idea for street use.

Semper Fi,
Mark J

Mark J <MarkJ12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Ohio, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 19:44:13 (ZULU)

I think the problem with handloads and LE isn't on the good shots but on the bad ones.

Example:
You're an LE sniper, have sights on a bad guy with a hostage, and are given the go ahead to take a shot when clear.

If the shot is unsuccessful, either a flyer that hits a bystander or misses enough that the bad guy can kill the hostage, or if the round hangs in the barrel and your weapon's down, then everything hits the fan. If it comes down to it, and you were using factory ammo, then you're not liable. If you were using handloads that you had made, then they may try to pin you, the reloader, as the scapegoat.

Keyword: LIABILITY.

You're right, though; if the shot is successful, it wouldn't matter at all.

L8R

Oh, PS:
Have a happy 4th, everyone!

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Volunteers, Tennessee, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 20:31:13 (ZULU)

Speaking of the speed of sound through water, and rifles, and, uh... rifles underwater, I am planning a little diabolical experiment in which I will fire an old Enfield in the irrigation pond to see for myself if/how bad she blows. Will report back when the results are in if I still have all my fingers. If my report is poorly typed you can figure I'm keypunching with my nose.

Notice: I am not and never have been "Da Man", nor have I ever played him on TV. I am not associated with him in anyway, and any resemblance between me and Da Man is purely coincidental. And I did not, let me make this very clear, I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH DA MAN. Or should I say "Dat" Man in this case? Ah, well.

Light fuse, get away.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 20:51:28 (ZULU)

We do not use handloads because if something goes wrong the departments would rather have Federal defend their loading techniques than the agencies ours. There is also the issue of tring to make a more lethal round. Cops shoot to stop the threat not kill. It just so happens that when a round traverses the brain everything stops on a permanant basis.

The Undude/Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 21:46:53 (ZULU)

Now, do I think cops should be allowed to load their own in their garage, and use whatever they bring? Nope. Too much room for error. Are there people on a professional level that reload, and beat the consistency and accuracy of factory loads? Yes. Several local forces use such a guy and his prices are higher than factory stuff. Anyway, enough on that.

BRogers: We country boys think alike:) Use of the red herring is an art. I believe every coyote can be trapped...some are easy, some are not. They all have a weakness though. Find it, you get the prize:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 22:17:02 (ZULU)

Okay, now it's my turn: Happy 4th, you American goofballs! Have a good one! (Now why didn't you wish me a happy liberation-day on may 5th? Better luck next year...)

Good night America, wherever you are...

Stefan

GUNCONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Sorry,, B.Rogers, if I made you feel uncomfortable. I'll have Darell send you one of his horny sheep! - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 22:57:48 (ZULU)

To those who are interested in FNs, here is a great website to visit.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1234/

Good reading,
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 00:46:03 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 01:23:02 (ZULU)

straight shooting :)
Haraldur Gústafsson <garou@simnet.is>
Egilsstaðir, Iceland - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 01:35:25 (ZULU)

Shit I got carried away,SORRY.
P.S. Tussock is around a 1-1/2 feet high!
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 03:04:46 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 07:54:38 (ZULU)

You mentioned a suppressor in your posting. I think you're talking about for a .308 gun when you say the Lapua Subsonic load.

Something that might help you. Lapua uses a 200 grain bullet with a rebated boat tail and some pre-engraved bands on the jacket to reduce bore drag in the barrel.

1st, if you reload, use a 200 grain FLAT BASE bullet with no bands. The flat base bullets have ALWAYS been better for pure accuracy than boat tails. The vast majority of winning benchrest bullets are flatbase, but they are shooting at only 100 or 200 yards. The flatbase bullet clears the muzzle crown more cleanly than the boattails do, with a much less chance of low velocity induced yaw out of the barrel.

2nd, the bands around the bullet on the Lapua create higher drag in flight. The airflow around the bullet is disrupted by these bands and the airflow over the boat tail is also disrupted. The effective ballistic co-efficient is lower when that happens. The maximum effective range for that load is around 300 meters because of the extreme trajectory of the sub-sonic load.

I have a sub-sonic load that uses a 200 gr. flatbase for shooting out of the M-24 without a can on it. Using the M-3's ballistic cam, you need to dial "3" to hit at 100 meters, "6" to hit at 200 meters, and "10" to hit at 300 meters. After that it's all over.

Contact me email and i'll give you the load data for that sub-sonic load. It's good for 1.5 MOA to 300 yards. Long flight times are also a problem for subsonic rounds and considering their intended use, long flight times are a bad thing. Leads to misses because the target easily and inadvertently steps out of the way after the trigger is pulled.
trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 12:53:23 (ZULU)

If I'm not mistaken I believe the 8 wheeled LAV's are built at the GM truck plant in Oshawa, Ontario.There was a recent automotive t.v. show segment featuring how these vehicles are built and tested.

FN FAL's:Australian and Canadian versions are arguably the best built rifles of this type.One very interesting,though little known,version is the trainor model .22LR .A few friends of mine used them while in the Army Cadet program many years ago.

Let's not forget the lessons that the Brits learned during Desert Storm.Eventhough it was considered old,out dated, and far too heavy,the FN FAL ended up replacing the state of the art Enfield bullpup (or,was that bullshit) rifle currently in service because of problems operating in a desert environment.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 15:34:18 (ZULU)

serri <'serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com'>
BKK, Thailand - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 15:57:48 (ZULU)

Sa Was Di Krupp. Sabai Di Mai? Dont' know if you can understand the phoneic attempt at the greeting. Spent many months in your fine country with 1st SFGA. The best flash hiders for a bolt gun .308 are full suppressors. Some wouldn't agree that they are necessary and that they change some things in the trajectory. Some cans do and others don't. The advantages gained in using a full suppressor far outweigh the disadvantages (only one i can think of is weight) OPSINC makes an excellent suppressor that is about 2.3 lbs.

The 3 prong type for the M-24 is trash, comes loose too easily and that thing getting loose disturbs the gas around the exiting bullet and causes some serious grouping problems. Good powder and loads are the best way to avoid flash at night. They are many ways to tune out the flash and have effective ammunition. Barrel length contributes to overcoming this also.

The standard bullet weight of the 7.62 Nato round is 147 grains. You can use the 155 Palma Sierra bullet as a mexican match alternative. Works pretty good and makes a damn decent 800 yard load. By any chance do you know Colonel Bunchu, ex commander of the Thai Rangers? I worked with your national rifle team for the AARM matches in 1995 when they took the AARM match.

Know the Tiger Den well, but personally i preferred Soi Cowboy. Take care, Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 17:43:57 (ZULU)

Dean, thanks and take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 17:52:39 (ZULU)

Have a safe and enjoyable fourth of July and remember that Independance was won at a cost!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 17:53:52 (ZULU)

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 18:48:57 (ZULU)

For a great .308 subsonic factory load, contact Black Hills or Engle Ballistic Research. I just did a demo with the Engle 200 grain load using a factory Remington PSS fitted with a Gemtech can that printed 5 shot groups under 3/4" at 100 yards.

BTW, thanks for the bbl advise on the .300WM project, anyone have BlackStar contact info handy?

WIth the two-point mount suppressor, how has accuraccy been with the suppressor off? I'm concerned about the machining of the bbl and the stress relief on the bore. With the can providing tension, I know the rifle will actually shoot better, but what of length and weight or other operational considerations suggest removal of the can?

I'm trying to test out an OPS, Inc. system, but if anyone out there can provide some insight, thanks in advance.

Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 21:02:59 (ZULU)

Today I finally got around to doing this test. Had an old British Enfield in .303. It was given to me as a basket case by a gunsmith friend who was taken from us too early. He had tentatively planned on making a DeLisle Carbine out of it (.45 ACP, suppressed, used for sneaky stuff in WWII). He never got to finish it-- the way he went, and given where he'd been, I wonder sometimes if Agent Orange had a hand in it. Anyway.... I took it out to the irrigation pond behind the house. String, electrician's tape, and silicone goop were part of my kit. At the request of a Sniper Country reader, the first 4 rounds were fired with the bore sealed with tape at the muzzle and a bead of silicone at the base of the cartridge. I loaded the rifle and sunk it over a paper grocery bag to make sure that the muzzle was not in the muck. Touched 'er off with a string......PHOomph......reel 'er in.... no damage. Three more rounds this way, no damage. I then fired 4 more making sure the barrel was filled with water by submerging it with the bolt open and loading it underwater. PHOomph X 4, no apparent harm to the rifle, but I did get a few pierced primers. Those that didn't pierce showed slight, but not alarming, pressure signs. OK, says I, I am NOT taking you home in one piece. The last four rounds, same process, but I made sure the muzzle was well-jammed into the muck. Long story short, the rifle is drying on the back porch at this moment, ready for a hose-out with WD40 and apparently ready to go on with it's career. Now, I did not go so far as to check headspace before and after, but it sure seems fine. One interesting phenomenon was that the rounds fired with the muzzle in the muck resulted in empty cases coming out completely filled with muck. Hm. Would sure like to try this with a semi-auto. Anybody got a rusted, bent-barreled, shot-out SKS to donate? I'd be real interested to see if the thing will work with the gas system filled with water (it does in stupid Mel Gibson movies).
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 21:35:43 (ZULU)

I remember some years ago (1970s ?)that Soldier of Fortune or SWAT magazine did some underwater testing with the 1911 Colt. No harm was done to the handgun. The testing had something to do with underwater personal protection for SEALS.

As far as I know, your test is the first of its kind. Nice to see some original work.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 00:59:35 (ZULU)

Sabai De mak Krub!
Wow, your Thai is very impressive. A farang (foriegner) speaks like that around here could into a shot gun marriage quicker than an eye wink!
Sorry but the mentioned name didn't ring a bell. Barely knew any of the RTA team armory. I'm long retired before the RTA hosted the first AARM match in 1992. Col. Supin is in charge of the armoury. It is still the annual event to this day though. Before that I was just a lowly paid staff sergent clerk (S3) at the SFC in Lopburi with the fire power of a Remington typewriter. Ops...sorry, not meant to brag.
Has nothing to work on but a bunch of M80 with an old beat up Sako A1 to match up against RTA Sig-3000 with Scenar. Not a pretty sight but this ain't for a beauty contest.
want to chat long and some more but got to go. The librarian is watching if I might accidently stumble into those dirty net. I guess I overdid those accidents for today.

Serri, out in the sunny side of Lucy's Tiger Den, Thailand.

Serri <Serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com>
BKK, Thailand - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 10:46:37 (ZULU)

Ned ( of the great pondwater specwar experimentation project )
hehe you are using a L O N G string? Keep postin the new results please.

Bolt.
It's simple: just get well dammit.
No, really, do drink lots of fluids (beer doesn't count) and max out on your vitimans and minerals! hope you get to feeling better soon!

All,
Have a happy 4th. Think of what the day is ment to celebrate.
It was the sacrifice of people like you and me that made this country
as free as it is today. Think about it. No real organized army won this country. Average folks did, with above average desire.
Screw Thanksgiving day, Appriciate what you have TODAY.

on a side note, I appriciate all you active duty persons doing what you are for me and our country. If you have any specific questions about any benefits you may be able to receive after you become a Veteran, please feel free to contact me.

buk off the soapbox.
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
WetSweatinDamnHotIn, Louisiana, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 12:15:43 (ZULU)

OOOPSS! Botched the first post - will try again.

Get some locally made honey. Make this honey part of your regular diet. We use honey on toast just about every morning. You will develop immunity to most of the pollen based allergies. It won't happen overnight but it appears to work. I know any MD's out there will probably cringe at reading this. AND NO YOU CAN'T SUE ME IF IT DOESN'T WORK OR PRODUCES ANY WIERD SIDE EFFECTS - LIKE MAKING YOUR 100 YARD GROUPS SPREAD FARTHER APART.

ON BUGS:
get some cayenne and garlice supplements - will make you (especially when sweating) - taste really bad to all but the most desperate bugs.

BOLT:
man - if you survive working in that emergency room - you will have developed some serious immunities. On a serious note check out an herb called Echinacia Goldenseal. This is supposed to help your immune system work alot more efficiently. Of course don't forget saying your prayers, good diet and exercise.

Treat this stuff like reloading data - read up on it yourself and go from there.

NO WE'RE NOT DRUGGIES AND NOT INTO VOODOO EITHER. We do grow alot of herbs and dried flowers as a side business (no wacky weed either).

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:28:59 (ZULU)

Yes, you are talking about point blank zero. I worked up some data for you. You didn't mention your load combination so i'm posting a few different possibilities.

Sight height is part of the equation for PBZ, so i'll assume your's is 2.0" above barrel centerline.

The diameter of the Kill Zone is important. This is the dimension in inches above and below the point of aim on your target. I used a 10" Kill Zone diameter. Meaning, when aiming at one certain point, your round will strike somewhere 5" high to 5" low of your aiming point.

For the 135 Gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 3000 fps. Using a ballistic co-efficient of .450 from Sierra.

Zero the Gun at 310 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 364 yards.

For the 135 Gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 2900 fps.

Zero the Gun at 300 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 353 yards.

For the 140 gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 3000 fps. Using a ballistic co-efficient of .360 from Sierra.

Zero the gun at 303 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 355 yards.

For the 140 gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 2900 fps.

Zero the gun at 293 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 343 yards.

There is another way of employing this technique. Using the last piece of information above. If you know that your range to your target is probably more than the max of 343 yards, simply place your point of aim at the top of the backbone of the target (for big game) If you are a military sniper, shift the point of aim to the face and you push you range out to about 500 yards using the same method.

Hope this helps you, take care.

Dean

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:33:38 (ZULU)

About the 173 grain M118 rounds. There were years when it was pretty good and years when it sucked horribly. Send me the lot # if you can and i'll find out for you the quality of that particular lot.

Alot of guys have slammed the M118 round. I have been specifically shooting that round for 14 years now in any variation of 7.62mm shooting military sniper rifles and it solely depends on the lot. From what I have observed, this may be coincidental, but the bad lots of M118 are the only ones that get out on the open market. The good M118 stays in the military system. That's just a personal observation and may be way off base.

Alot of competition shooters that are military guys use the 118 round for practicing their position shooting and grouping. Once the capability of the round is established from the bench, they strive to obtain that same level of precision in the sling in the different positions.

That round may not be great but we were able to rely on it enough to demand 7 for 10 hits on a moving target at 3 different speeds to a range of 400 yards, on a target that is 9" wide. SOTIC guys that went through 1st groups program will remember this.

On snap engagments at 200, 300, and 400 yards, it was head shots only and in 3 seconds at all ranges. Precision usually wasn't a problem with this drill. Not a big fan of M118, but it's not all that bad. The new 118 Long Range is the shit though. Still I think Lapua 185 grain loads are superior to both. Used those all over Asia, very good stuff. In the M-24 when shooting against M118 and M852 the Lapua just smoke the two rounds in long range shooting.

Damn, long winded again, sorry guys, remember why Independance Day is what it is.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:42:46 (ZULU)

Sawasdee Krupp, Phom kidwaa phom jah pai prahted Thailand, phom mai mee phanraya. :(

Good to hear back from you. I remember Lopburi well, was involved in a couple of Cobra Golds out of there. Last one was in 94.

So the boys there are using the 300 and Scenar now? Is that the 170 gr. or 185 gr. bullets? About the shotgun wedding, don't sound like a bad idea to be honest, not much a fan of American women these days. Phuying Thai pen dii maag le suuay maag. Damn, i hope that comes across okay with all the tone stuff in your language.

take care and don't hang out at Lucy's too much.

Buk,

Currently we are market researching the subject. Location will be in Western New Mexico. Concept is to get .50 cal builders to sponsor the course with different rifles and some .338 Lapua magnum guns also. Ammo and weapons will be provided in the cost of tuition. Approximate course length is going to be 14 days, but that's not solid in the air yet.

One option for those not able to go for 14 days is to pay a lower tuition rate and attend the first week only. This is an advanced long range (out to 1600 yards) course. A shooter need NOT be a graduate of a previous course to attend, but it would help. For those who are interested, we may provide a package of reading material in the form of a book as a primer to the course.

This would help get a guy up to speed on some of the more technical and mathematical aspects of the training. Most likely candidate for the time frame is the spring. More to follow as details become available.

Take care, Dean

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:58:04 (ZULU)

The Undude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 16:45:19 (ZULU)

Good uck if ebay will allow the sale of the loaded ammo to be compleated. They have turned into politicaly correct turd heads where things regaurding firearms are concerned.

Thanks to all who helped with the freedom we enjoy. Your sacrifices are remembered every day. not just the fourth.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 18:11:59 (ZULU)

I signed up to use a web email service. Basically it would set up a web based email service using my domain name. In the end I decided not too but I received this email today -

"Michael,

We have limited the access to our service in an effort to make it attractive to the largest possible group of partner sites. Unfortunately, we've had to exclude certain types of content in order to achieve this. We currently feel that any site that promotes/contains/focuses on pornographic/racist/libelous/illegal materials/gambling/alcohol/tobacco/firearms does not meet the requirements for access to our service because too many people may find it objectionable.

We appreciate your interest in our service, and we're sorry that we can't accept your site at this time because it violates our agreement.

Sincerely,

John P. Foster
Partner Consultant
Everyone.net
25 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95113
Ph: (408) 279-5900 ext. 211
Fax: (408) 283-9077
mailto:jfoster@everyone.net http://www.everyone.net "

Firearms obejectionable? Sounds pretty dumb to me. Well feel free to send a nice email to them.

Harry Merkin <hmerkin@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 19:33:44 (ZULU)

Tried to send a blistering response to what you wrote below. The website came back as non-deliverable.. No surprise there. That's the same thing the Violence Prevention Center does when they want to lay low for a while.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 19:46:50 (ZULU)

In preparations for my tour i havent had the time to respond in the way i would have liked here on the Duty Roster.
I see i've missed a lot of good new subjects, such as the ;"To Fal or not to Fal, thats the question..." or the shooting fun about differences in speed at different altitudes, or the newer ;"What happens if i shoot my 6000$ sniperrifle underwater, besides me getting a heartache...".

Furthermore i've heard all the stories and seen all the pictures from my bud stefan about how it has been on SMTC , all i can say is, you lucky basterds!

To all; i would like it very much if some of you would write me, now and then, so i can keep myself updated on the great info i'll be missing here on the Roster, and from time to time i hope ill be able to post a message on the Roster through my dear friend Stefan (That is if its ok with you Stefan, :), forgot to ask you this ,lol).

My adress to respond to will be;
Hi, since im off to kosovo for 6 months, i wont be on the net anymore , but i would like it very much if we could stay in touch now and then by mail.
My post adress for kosovo will be ;

Plug
71.02.10.230
Sergeant
1(NL) infcie K-FOR
1(NL) GN hulpbat K-FOR
napo 58
3509 VP Utrecht
The Netherlands

To Torsten; Stefan is wright, the graves are a must-see in normandy both the german and the alied ones, along with point-du-hoc, where the rangers led the bloody way, most of the bunkers are still in one peace, sort of.It will make any soldier think of the job he has chosen.

To Chris; to bad its a nato operation, because i would have liked it very much to meet your aussie and New-Sealand troops again, like with the UN ops in bosnia.

To Stefan; stay of the booz and leave the sheep alone!!

Hope to hear/read from y'all soon and see y'all in 6 months back on the Roster.

Yours truly,

Mcnab aka Marco

Nec Temere Nec Timide

McNab <Sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 20:50:34 (ZULU)

Recon, I'm a construction engineer but I do have my EMT, BTLS and Hazmat Specialist certs. Working on getting Rescue cert. I'm also on reserve with SORT(Special Operations Response Team) under FEMA and the NDMS.

Lake City 173's were loose bullets only, the last price wias something like $23 per 100. Didn't know if the were special or not!

Mcnab, keep your head down and watch out for them sheeps!

TOMORROW......I will definitely get the 300 mag vs. 308 thing going again, if the fever didn't effect me brain too bad.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 01:51:32 (ZULU)

$23 a hundred is a hell of a lot of money for 173's when you can get Sierra Matchkings for $18-20 a hundred... I've seen 173's in the Shotgun News, for $8 a hundred, which makes it worth it for practice, but if you can't get them for that price, then get new MatchKings for $18-20, they will shoot circles around the 173's

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 02:25:21 (ZULU)

Depity Dave: Good to hear your voice on the phone yesterday, and I'm sorry I completely forgot to congatulaty you on Independance Day. How thoughtless of me!

Torsten: Met Gert saturday on the range but he didn't have my shorts. I've been sweating my ass off yesterday! Hope to see him again soon. I gave Gert the money for Reinhart, so call off those Dobermanns! So, I take it from your post to Gooch that Reinharts rifle has been painted? What did he put on it? Smiley-faces? I introduced KIMS-games to the reserves here. Must have been as funny for Rod/Gooch/Dave as it was for me! They sang Jingle-Bells quite good though!

Bolt: McNab knows to leave the sheep in Kosovo alone. The Serbs knew he was coming and boobytrapped all their fannies! Oh, good to see yu're feeling better, I'm starting to feel worse! If you mention the word .300 WM today, I'll sedn you the worst e-mail virus I can find!

Ned: Thanks man! You finally gave me an excuse to get my scuba-gear out again. Never had the money available to buy one of those harpoon-rifles, but now it turns out I've always had a super alternative around! Any word on group size at a 100 yd. underwater target? :-)

Chris: Any FAL not made in Herstal belgium is a COPY! I'm kind of an FN-freak, so to see the way you commonwealth people have maimed the FAL kinda hurts me. Folding charging-handles, funky flash-hiders, awefull pistol-grips (at least on the British L1A1's)... I have a very old !!!FN!!!-FAL and I consider it top notch!
I had the chance to get my hands on one of those L85A1's Jeff mentioned. What a piece of crap!!!! The mag-well was to narrow to allow the use of standard NATO M-16 mags, I cut my hand on the little hatch covering the chanrging-handle-slot (never mind, the Brittish Sgt. said, they break off after a days use) and the rifle literally CAME APPART when shooting it. After a couple of hundred rounds though each of the 4 we had available they QUIT and nobody could get them going again. Oh, BTW, this was at the RANGE, not in the DESERT!!!!!

Take care y'all!

Stefan
GUN CONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!!!

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 07:21:11 (ZULU)

Unfortunately I can't afford them, but there are some good looking IOR-Valdata binocs at EBAY. Look here.

L8er!

Stefan

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 08:07:41 (ZULU)

Those seem to be real-deal Former East German Zeis-Jenna binocs, not IORs. I have both the 7x40 and 10x50 IORs; fundamentaly different configuration. I dont know which are superior, if any. The eBay item you linked is a very good value, though. Last I looked those went for well over $100 more than the current bid price.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 14:06:50 (ZULU)

You can see it at http://rosie.acmecity.com/merriment/131

I even linked To Sniper Country and My Favorite training place, Storm Mountain Training Center!

Check it out! you can get 20 meg of FREE space too!

Click on my name to go there now...I will be updating sooooon!

Listen to TokyoRosie sprout her anti-gun propaganda!! Rosie thinks ALL gun owners should GO TO PRISON.

Check out www.fulton-armory.com..you can get your free web space there! Help Walt bury Rosie.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 14:54:40 (ZULU)

I am looking for a professional to do an independant evaluation of the tactical data books that I have developed and mentioned on this site a couple of times. Some of the guys here have bought them.

Ultimately I would ask this review to be submitted to the Review section of Sniper Country's website. Any takers? Contact me email please. Set of data books goes for free and a signed agreement is necessary to proceed. Thanks.

Here is the description once again. These tables are hand calculated specialized data tables. The tables I have are for common military calibers. .50, 338 Lapua, .300 Magnum and the .308. The tables for .308 are for M118 Special Ball, and Special Ball Long Range, and 168 gr. at 2600,2650,2700 and 2750 fps and M80 Ball (147 gr. bullet @ 2750 fps).

Individual caliber sets are available without buying the entire set. The entire set is a much better deal at 125.00, however each caliber set is 25.00. For example, a set of M118, M118 Long Range and M80 Ball 7.62mm military and .308 tables would be 50.00. The .50 caliber tables alone are 50.00 because there is much more data. If you are interested specifically in the .50 tables, they have all 5 standard military rounds "Greentip" Mark 211, MOD-0, M8 API, M33 Ball, M20 APIT, and M903 slap data.

These tables is highly refined and very accurate tables that give elevations in minutes of angle, elevation settings per 100 meters, remaining velocities, spin drift, flight times, angle of fall, danger space and wind deflection in inches, Mils, and Minutes of Angle. This data has been proven with many different .50 caliber rifles and other sniper weapons systems in many worldwide environments.

What makes these more accurate than any table generated by computer or on the market is that a different and precise ballistic co-efficient is used every 100 meters. There are based on live firings and the data corrected to standard atmospheric conditions. Therefore the times of fight that are used in the windage formulas are more accurate. Computer models use an average over a certain range. This contains many errors as velocities and data around the trans-sonic flight range will be in gross error.

These tables ARE NOT REACTIVE as are other "data books" that are on the market. They are designed so that the sniper can correct for all meteorological and environmental conditions the sniper may shoot in. Furthermore, more data can be developed as requested.

The tables are sent with a 70 page instruction book that not only teaches the use of the tactical tables but is a short course on exterior ballistics and precision zero techniques that correctly tune these tables to the gun/ammunition system for advanced sniper applications. The tables are printed on card stock (5 x 7") format.

They are inserted in a very strong and flexible vinyl page that is similar to a document protector and are bound together with 5 ea. 1" rings. The cover is a BDU camouflage heavy vinyl. These are the same as the USAF flight crew manifest checklist booklet. You can see the book insert i am using at www.pdipueblo.com go to the vinyl products section. The cost of this option is 15.00 per book set.

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 15:37:33 (ZULU)

Ron N-- I remember hearing about the SOF test. They also did it at one of the conventions in Vegas-- in the hotel pool-- and had a little problem with the manager I'm told. If I was there that year, I missed it.... I'd love to give that a try but am not ready to risk one of my cherished 1911's. Will keep my eye out for something expendable (...anybody..?). Saw a nice old Devel Gammon compensated .45 auto blow yesterday at a steel match. Double charge we presumed, barrel and slide totalled.

Buk-- The lanyard was not all that long but I made sure not to stand directly behind the rifle! Each time I fired it, it moved about 3 feet through the water from the recoil.

Stefan-- Scuba divin' with an Enfield, hm... leave the weight belt home. Judging by the sound at the surface, I'm thinking the report underwater, as long as it is directed away, would not be dangerous, even though the speed of sound through water is much faster.

With the interest in this, I now feel kinda obligated to go a little further (damn you all). Think I'll make a cradle that will hold the rifle aimed at a steel plate say 3' or 6' from the muzzle and shoot it submerged. See what kind of penetration I get (and group size?), and extrapolate velocity from it maybe, by comparing underwater penetration to "air" penetration at various distances until they match, then figure what the velocity at that "air" distance would be.

Don't expect this tomorrow! Comments, suggestions, questions and subjects for diabolical experiments welcome. Post and Email, please, as I'm pretty busy in the shop and can't always monitor SC as much as I'd like.....

Thanks-- Ned
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 16:08:29 (ZULU)

Having email problems here. Mine go out, none can come in...I hope to hell our computer guy isn't in charge of any Y2K programming "fixes"...well, I take that back. Then the world would have sympathy for my problems:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 16:18:28 (ZULU)

Send me an email...Varget rules... testing new pc w/ cable modem

Hope everyone's had a good 4th.

Rented and watched SPR again... so powerful a film. Hit just as hard as the first time a I saw it on the big screen.

Good to be alive and living in the USA
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
smyrna, ga, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 19:14:24 (ZULU)

Going back to hunting, a good COLD weather sport. Don't know why any human would want to fight a war in heat like this. Looks like the people would get hot, call it quits and have a beer together instead!

Hot tub + Crown Royal + redhead = near drowning. Ned, be extrememly careful with pentration under water. Damn near drowned one night from it a couple of years ago. LOL LOL LOL

Too delerious to bring up 300 mag thing. You lucked out Stephan.

By the way, forgot to say &^*((^$@#%&*(^% M3 scope. Ah for the days of 1/4 clicks. Sherrie, give me another valium with that beer!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 21:26:12 (ZULU)

Get well friend,

AND STAY OUT OF THE HEAT!!

You'll end up going postal SPECIAL DELIVERY on the local grasshoppers or ground squirrels!

Stay cool folks

Chao for now!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
HOT-HOT CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 21:31:53 (ZULU)

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 21:39:03 (ZULU)

You lucky Bas*$#%. A redhead, hottub, daaammmmmnnnnnnnnn...... be like i'd died and went somewhere. Not sure where that's going to be yet.

Take care, don't overheat.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 23:24:28 (ZULU)

Does anyone have a AICS stock fitted to a M700 PSS DM?

If so has it performed satisfactorily?

Thanks in advance.
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 02:35:40 (ZULU)

Going back to off hand positions, been practicing the cross leg sitting position, as was a topic a while back, sitting for 15 minutes and shooting 10 shots at an 8 1/2 x 11 target with a 2" dot, with a sporting weight rifle it is easy to steady and hit the the target at 350 yds with consistency, but with a heavy SWS rifle it is difficult to steady the weight forward barrel. Tried shifting weight forward, backward ETC. but still find it difficult to hold steady with consistency. Any training techniques (ie breathing, pressure against a body part, timing, etc) to overcome this shortcoming?

It was mentioned about carrying a sidearm on the left side by a right hand shooter or in an SOB position, is this just as a piece of gear or do you practice any kind of quick retieval from this position. Any special type of holster?

You just have to love practicing and getting a good workout in this 100+ degree weather. Hey at 6 in the morning it's 90 degrees and that 5 mile run just makes you feel how good it is to be getting older by the day. Makes the beer worth while.

Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 04:52:34 (ZULU)

The one thing that I'm not to sure about was that a long bullet (190gr-200gr-210gr-220gr-240gr .30 cal) might not be stabilize at 100 yds. even with the correct twist rate....
So if this is true then ANY load work @100yds. with any long bullet would be a waste of time........

I've heard this said many times around my shooting circle but I thought it was one of those things that, people don't know what they are talking about.......But the individual that I was talking to surely knew his stuff.....( Hey Charlie )

My mind only operates on a simple level, so it would seem to me that if a bullet exits the muzzle of your rifle in an unstabilized state or even becomes unstabile in flight some were, how can it improve with any distance..............

--------------------------------------------BigGunn---------------------------------------------------

BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country...were the mountain isn't high enought to get out of this Dam heat!!.....in..., Pa., USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 05:03:48 (ZULU)

Any help would be apperciated.............BigGunn.......................

Dam Hot BigGunn <Meghan@penn.com>
Smoken Hot Mtn. Country in the brown state of....., Pa., USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 05:20:53 (ZULU)

the above is a direct quote from the Arnold sales lit...
The 180 grandslam had a BC of .41 and in Nitrex is loaded to 2950 fps. There is a pic of the rifle, it's a sporter with at most a #5 barrel, and a wood stock. The "1000 yard target" is a standard NRA style 50 yard small bore target with something like 8-10" of black. anyone know of this guy? isn't that a 1000 yard BR record? other...comments?

gee, if their hunting rifles shoot like this, imagine what their tac rifles will do...
Jimbo <J@jimbosguns.com>
CO, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 06:23:14 (ZULU)

On "Larry W. Lindsey's" amazing feats of shooting... they are truely amazing.

The world record at 1000 yds is 3.1" with a gun that needs two people to carry, using the best bullets the benchrest world has to offer, not hunting bullets.

And on the scope he shoots with... IF (and thats a big IF...) he set up the scope with tapered bases, so that the 100 yd zero was at the bottom of the elevation dial, and he wasted no clicks of elevation... his maximum range would be about 850 yds. The B&L 6x24 is a fine scope, but has the shortest elevation range of any scope on the market... a total of 24 moa from top to bottom... he would need 35 moa with that cartridge to make 1000 yds, and 110 moa to do his water jug trick, and 110 moa is available in only two over the counter scopes... the 16x Leupold MK4-M1, and the B&L 10x Tactical.

Of course he might have pulled the trigger VERY hard...

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 10:16:59 (ZULU)

God I HATE marketing hype!

Off to broil at harpers ferry with da toursists.

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 13:08:17 (ZULU)

Pablito,
"He don't need no stinking mil dots or dials to hit at 1650yds because he's probably a "MASTER SNIPER".

Steve,
If you have a M3 LR try the 30-06 cam with the 175s I think you will find them to be pretty close or do like I did for my 260 mark off and paint the top half of the dial and then scribe in your own numbers it works great or just use the MOAs on the bottom if its the M3 LR.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 13:12:46 (ZULU)

The UnDude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 16:08:55 (ZULU)

The AICS system works FANTASTIC!!!!! It's expensive (around $600 dealer cost for standard, $1200 dealer for collapsible--I just recieved a green colored standard stock last week....Momma was good to me for my birthday.....) The action attaches to an Aluminum bedding piece that runs from the buttstock to about 10 inches forward of the chamber. The stock is divided longitudally along the bore axis and is "sandwiched" around the metal. (sounds ugly but it is ohhhhhh so sexy.....) My PSS was a non-detachable mag type...but the stock comes with a 5 rd. detachable box mag... All I had to do was remove the guide piece and Voila!..... I picked up 2 extra mags at about 50 apiece...... Be advised this Stock is hhhhhheavy......I would not want to have to stalk with it... I dont know exact weight but it feels significantly heavier than a Mcmillan and a &*%#pot heavier than a H.S. Precision. The barrel channel is enormous!!! It also has an integral (Anschutz type) accesory rail, a Parker-Hale attachment point and a Harris attachment point. Molded in buttstock hook, four sling swivel points....yada yada yada.....I am obviously not a salty-sniper type like some of the esteemed jedi that frequent this site but all i can tell you is the first time I shot the gun with this stock I had to change my drawers...... You really ought to check one out and see for yourself. Had to sweet-talk talk my chief for permission to put it on but it was worth it......

Mike Kirn <mkirn@hotmail.com>
Zebulon, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 21:05:15 (ZULU)

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 21:17:38 (ZULU)

In autozone last evening, see they carry 4 colors of "camo" paint. Black, tan, brown, green. $5 per.

Shot 12 shots into about 1.5 inches @ 1,475 meters today with subsonic 22lr ammo. Is that good? Would have been tighter, but got a flier mid way through. :)

Old Dog [Master of nothing worthwhile]

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 21:54:59 (ZULU)

"Does anyone know whether you can get a cam for the M3 for 168gr fed match?"

Yup, call Leupold, they have them.

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 00:41:50 (ZULU)

Hi:

Y'all might recall my outlining my "spotter's rifle" project last week, where I have built up an Chinese reciever with a bunch of USGI parts to yield something of an M21 clone, but bedded using Devcon aluminum in a reinforced GI fiberglas stock. Said project is going well enough, though I will have to go back in and "skim glas" it again to get the desired barrel/forend tention. It shot about 1 MOA last weekend 'tll the bedding gave up (I knew it wasent right to begin with). I have a mount that should prove adaptatable enough; its a cheapie but in a way that gives me lots of material to work with. The rifles intended envelope is for fully useable iron sights for work out to 200 yards, then for optics out to 600 yards.

Sooo...now we come to the optics. I am currently po' and destined to get po'er (starting grad school in the spring, I think) but have a number of canidate Leupolds on hand. Good stuff, but not normaly considered tactical gear. Numbah One canidate is a basic 6x36mm M8, currently sporting a Duplex reticle and (presumably) set up with the default 150 yd. paralax setting. Cool. My current thought is to ship it off to Premier and have them remove the vertical part of the duplex reticle and replace it with a crosshair, run a string of five MIL-dots verticaly above the primary zero point, then below that have crosswires run for 400, 500, and 600 yards, calibrated to the trajectory of the 168gr. Matchking @ M52 velocities. On the 600 yard crosswire, have another string of horizontal MIL-dots to cover that axis. Have the parallax set to, say, 400 yards.

Method of employment: zero the scope for 300 yards, use the MIL-dots for range estimation and use the crosswires for holdover at 400 yards and beyond. Keeps me from having to buy target knobs, which are too bulky for this application anyway. The remaining horizontal part of the original Duplex gives me improved low-light performance over a conventional MIL-dot reticle. Since this is a fixed power scope I dont see many options for encorporating a range estimating feature other than MIL-dots,

Other canidate scopes include a pair of M8 4x scopes and an M8 8x36. The first two are probably a bit underpowered, the latter is pretty dark under marginal lighting. I think the 6x is the way to go at the moment.

This all may strike some as an odd way to do things, but this is an idea that I have been dinking around with (originaly for use on a Garand, actualy) in my head for several years now. If I put big money into a real-deal tactical scope, I want it to be one of the Vari-X III LRs for the bolt gun. This I can do for perhaps $150, If I read Premiers catalog right. The product ought to be an interesting and useful thing to work with.

Remarks, criticizems, hate mail and colorful commentary would all be appreciated.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 00:47:18 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 01:26:54 (ZULU)

Bruce, got you beat. Spotted whistle pig at 2,178 yards. Only had my 10/22 mag with Winchester Supremes. Said what the hell, held over about 75' and let it fly. While in mid flight, hit a damn dove in the ass heading straight for the pig. The bullet evidently went throught the dove's ass and out his beak and hit the pig in the right nostril, exactly where I was aiming. Who needs a 308??????

Off to bed, Bolt

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 02:13:56 (ZULU)

My delima now is i need to get rid of one of the two and am having a hard time deciding which. The A-Bolt is in 7 mag and the sendero in 300 win mag. need to play with the Remington a little more before i decide i guess. Sendero has no BOSS but looks like it should be a shooter from what everyone has been mailing me. Have several different loads to try now i just need the time.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 02:52:06 (ZULU)

Mike and Kim, if it had not been for other direct email feedback that said exactly the same thing I would have to suspect you worked for AI.
What a write-up! Thanks to all who provided the info, your help reassures me that I spend the hard earned stuff on a worthwhile upgrade.

HS Precision must be pretty annoyed.

On another matter, a regular contributor has a site that should be well worth monitoring at http://www.aspire.net/hti/

Whats the difference between a girlfriend and a wife?

About 20 kilos.

dt
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 03:16:26 (ZULU)

Looking to buy a few of cheap surplus bolt actions on the market today (Enfields, mosin/nagets, maybe mausers) to practice gunsmithing on. Setting barrels back, bedding, piliar bedding, etc. Plans would be to make them learning projects, then donate them to the kids or the local range for the juniors to step up to when it's time. Anyone with suggestions or comments, please email direct to keep it off the roster. thanks

mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 05:35:27 (ZULU)

Ballistic Program's,
I have Oehler's Ballistic Explorer 5(bex5),Pejsa's New Precision Ballistics and Seirra's Infinity.Brought the Seirra Infinity because it was the latest(therefore the best?) and was the only one to come on a CD(that is got to be so they can fit the large kick ass program?RIGHT?).Of the 3 the bex5 is the most comprehensive and the best,the Infinity is a major disapointment,I expected a major step forward by this large Player.What I want is the smallarm's equivalent to the Computor Fire Control unit's that Mortar Fire Controller's and Arty Observer's have been using since the late '70's,as far a small computor's go they are here already.When is someone going to develope a similar program for smallarm's,for the folk's unfamilar with the above calculator's/computor's they run a program that prompts the user thru several step's,ie Grid Ref,ammo type,Altitude,Direction and has changable Units(metric/imperial)and Met function's.There must be someone out there capable of putting together a smallarms version,I think it would sell like hot cake's,because at the moment there is NOTHING!!!

Comment's

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 06:05:48 (ZULU)

Chris:

If you are going to use a silencer/surpressor and heavy, 200gr+, bullets you need a faster twist than 1-11". 1-10" is minimum, 1-8" is best.

The heavy bullets will start to tumble as they exit the muzzle and will sooner or later make contact with the silencer and destroy it.

I prefer going up a caliber with the surpressor to have better clearence. I've used .30cal. silencer for 6.5mm rifles and 9.3mm for .30cal rifles. This is the way to go in a wet enviorement. Water/ice from rain or condensation can accumulate on the baffles inside the silencer and destabilice the bullets. Result: one destroyed silencer.

My experience is based on Vaime and assorted "homemade" equipment.

Have a nice day!

TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 07:31:59 (ZULU)

Do you want to translate that for the guys here?
No!? OK, I will it a secret that trigger five oh's do not keep wife (or wives?) and looking for one, preferably a dark skinny species, one found in adbundant here in this part of the world.

The RTA Sec. Comm. is with the 3000 and using 167 gr Lapua as well as 170 gr. Scenar. BTW, there are too many types of special services rifles in the inventory. The RTM (marine) use PSG-1 (and they hate it). The Steyr SSG is favored by the RTP (police), the Para and SFC. No one here use Remington based platform around here except me and you what that was.

About the firing under water, seen that many times here under a typical thick canopy and paddy field in SE Asia. The piston operated AK seems to be unaffected by any submersion. The opposition use to put them in mud and water for days (or weeks) and pull out at the last minute as patrol were passing. In fact, our Med. sea advisor once told me that it is a side arm of Egyptian frogman.

Do you know why Ta Mok and Pol Pot went into hiding all these years?
Because he fears people of your profession.

got to inside now, it's start to rain.
Serri, running for his rubber duck.

Serri <Serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com>
BKK, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 10:20:00 (ZULU)

anyone?
Any comments or suggestions on the armament technology AT1-C24,anyone used or got one.

Are there any 1000 yard ranges in ontario at all?

Anyone who shoots iong range in Canada or England please post here.

sorry I don't know the E-mail for this as its not my computer,but please post here.

Daniel.
Daniel again <www.sorrydontknownotmy@computer.com>
port hope, ontario, canada - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 13:23:30 (ZULU)

Lots of LR shooting in Ontario in the next few weeks.

Check out the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association
web site @ www.DCRA.ca
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SUNNY - SE, ILLINOIS, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 14:03:34 (ZULU)

Can someone tell me whether the ISSUE M-4 carbine uses a plastic or an aluminum stock?

Thanks!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 14:36:11 (ZULU)

Chris in NZ: I have some issues with the Stony Points: it seems to me that they would have to be relativly fragile, given that they thread onto the bare 1mm or so of thread that the Leupold saddle gives you. Unless someone convinces me otherwise, they dont seem very "tactical" to me. Also, since the M8 adjustmentss are friction and not clicker, the Stony Points would not add any tactile feedback from the adjustments, which I figure if you have knobs is a must. The concept here is more of an ART scope (without the cam, of course), which is probably a better match for this "spotter" concept rifle I am tinkering with. Aquire, range, shoot. No knobs. Not terribly precise but precise enough. The bolt gun gets propah' tactical optics (for the moment, a MIL-doted and target knobbed Vari-X II 4x12 AO). Different envelope, different mission, different optics.

Steve on OH: I understand that the standard Duplex has some range estimation capabilities of its own, but the more I dink around with the MIL-dot in my 4x12, the more I appreciate its capabilities. This strikes me as something I want to standardise on for just about all purposes. Again, in this case the concept is aquire, range, shoot. Can't afford a Sheperd (I supose this is what I am trying to emlutate, as much as anything else) and don't have an appropriate variable on hand to play with, so the MIL-dots combined with the crosswires seem the most viable option. As for the anceint Army BSZ-and-hold-on-the-head approach, I suppose that would work but I think I can improve on that a bit. Typicaly, Tasco's are relativly tough for a cheap scope. They also tend to be dark as hell. As long as I have this veritable stack of Leupolds to play with, I dont forsee buying any Tasco's, thanks. :)

-Tom

Tom Simspon <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 15:37:21 (ZULU)

Stephan: I read somewhere that the M4 has the four position plastic stock. I would hate to think this is true, but there you have it. I can not verify it one way or the other. I'd prefer the modern aluminum unit with either three or four positions. I'd trade a little weight for the sturdiness of the aluminum unit.

Ron: the guy to ask about the Choate "Ultimate Sniper" stock is CJ. I tried his and hated it in a big way for a lot of reasons, but if you are large and have big hands you might like it...or not. I felt it was gimmicky and some of the items were not particularly useful beyond sales hype. It seemed a bit strange for a rifle supposedly intended for actual field use. Too damn heavy to hump and to awkward to use for a medium sized guy like me. The pistol grip was too fat, the profile kind of odd and I had some other issues probably listed here before. To each their own. Some folks will love the thing, some hate it. Forgetting the shape and the issues that I did not like, I will say the bedding worked as I was able to fire a very tiny group with the thing mounted to CJs 7mm mag caliber 110FP. Bedding ain;t the issue! That sucker shot well. But if you like things like reasonable weight, feel, good ergonomics, save up and get a McMillan or HS stock. Also look at Brown Precision or some of the other Hunter oriented stocks. If you just have to try the Choate, handle one first before buying. You may find it is not exactly what you are looking for.

Whats with all this Thai-speak? ;-) I am going to have to bug the wife to read the roster one of these days! She spent some time in Thailand back in the 1980s.
Sa Was Di Kupp.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 18:36:46 (ZULU)

Mr. MilDot Master did you get the sling?

UnDude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 21:19:33 (ZULU)

Old Dog Bruce
In view of your profession I will avoid making a potentially libelous statement but I feel compelled to ask.....Where do you get your .22cal mortar rounds,and do they come in hollow point? :)
bRUCE e. <bgenlvtex@AOL.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 07, 1999 at 23:47:27 (ZULU)

M. Haugens comments are stating the diameter of the Mil Dot, he correctly states that they are 3/4 Minute dots. This translates into the dots being 1 milliradian (3.375) apart center to center.

Mike Haugen, time to come out of the woodwork. I know you're lurking out there, email me, we have stuff to discuss.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 00:04:09 (ZULU)

I caught the post the other day on Arnold Arms. I was an Arnold Arms customer once (never again). If you're considering them to do work on your rifle, make sure what ever they tell you, you get in writing. E-mail me and I'll tell you my 8 month ordeal dealing with them.
Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney , TX, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 00:47:59 (ZULU)

Boy howdy, did I get the sling!

Thought that the pre-production one you sent me could not be improved upon. I was wrong.

You're selling these things too cheap. Quality is outstanding, and design is without equal.

To all reading these posts.....you've probably all squandered $50.00 in a bar with your buddies and had nothing to show for it but a headache. Do yourself an immense favor and get one of these slings, and right now. Wish it was my design!

.50 Cal. World Championship in Raton was fun. Linked up with lots of great folks, but ears are ringing more than usual due to not paying attention to Range Director's warnings quickly enough. Lady shooter broke World record (unlimited class) with a 3 point something inch 5-shot group (1000 yards).

Hope Congress recognizes the value of the information that these patriotic and law-abiding shooters provides to our Armed Forces, and declines to consider HR2127.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 03:14:11 (ZULU)

Available now for download; instructions for T.R.G.T.'s Sniper Data Book. Absolutely free. Go to the hyperlink above, or go to T.R.G.T.'s website.

Operations Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.

Operations Partner, T.R.G.T. - L.L.P. <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 06:36:04 (ZULU)

You mission should you decide to accept it, is to fall off a bldg with said M-4 run 1/4 mile and shoot snaps and movers.

Should be a good warm up for the 3 rifle T&E you have planned.... ;-)

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
yAWN-cITy, bY-gAWD, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 07:20:02 (ZULU)

Well, I haven't been active duty or anything like that, but I was just reading through the 'snipers being cool' sections (or similar) on the page, and thought I'd add my $.02

First, I was shooting (LEGAL!) automatic weapons when I was around 8 years old - my dad would stand behind me and support me while i went 'rock and roll' on the trigger. I went into ROTC (sigh) in college, and was on the #1 rifle team in the nation (as far as ROTC was concerned)... also shot rifle team in H.S. - JROTC

Well... I don't know what else to say, except that it's NOT cool to come to a site that is supposed to be restricted to 18 years and older, and even worse, to brag about watching the movie 'sniper' numerous times.

I understand that the movie was based on Carlos Hathcock III's (God rest his soul, I felt like I knew him after reading his book) achievements, but the point still stands - it is one thing to be an outstanding marksman (or woman!), but to be a sniper requires something else - the ability to look a person in the eyes and still be able to pull the trigger.

I have never shot anyone; I don't walk around the streets with a pistol on my belt; and, for heaven's sake, I hope I am never faced with the situation where I have to look at someone and pull the trigger.

I consider myself an excellent marksman, whether it be with aperature sights or with a 20x scope at 900 meters, but there's still the point of 'living, life-threatening target, or just a piece of paper?'

There's nothing glorious about killing a man, I'm sure. For the military personnel that have had to do so in that past, I salute them, because they had no choice. I'm sure there is a difference between 'kill or be killed,' but as far as practicing rifle marksmanship, there is no comparison. I know that all of us are in debt to the soldiers, past and present, that risk their lives (or have risked their lives) for freedom, but being a sniper for the sake of 'being a sniper' could never earn the same respect.

The men, law enforcement or otherwise, that risk themselves as snipers command a respect that we should all appreciate, but is not respectable to want to be a 'sniper' to just go out and shoot someone that happens to wander into the reticle.

Just my $0.02.

-Palmer
Palmer Sample <lsample@massconfusion.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 11:08:59 (ZULU)

Feel free to mail me sometime!

L8er!

Stefan

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 14:39:24 (ZULU)

Pete, When I jump off the building can I atleast use a rope. The last time without one they were mad as hell when I broke the concrete. M4 took the fall well.

Guys, my NorCal rifle will be ready tomorrow. HS is in the mail and McMillan in the next week. I will busy puting tests together and such I may be absent for awhile. If you need to get ahold of me just use the Email. I will check it daily.

Slings: Thanks Bruce, $50.00 is cheap for all the work but being cheap myself I looked at the most I would pay without seeing one in action. If I hade gone against one I would pay ten times that but the guys here have not seen them in use. I had hoped someone would write a review for SC but no one has stepped up yet. It would not be right for someone making or selling them to write one. That leaves Scott and I out. Sarge how about you?

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 14:55:02 (ZULU)

Ed
Ed <sta4capt@aol.com>
Mi., USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 17:34:54 (ZULU)

Willam(Dutch sniper) if your out there its Daniel(English/Colombian sniper)leave a post here man,we gotta hook up.
Daniel <www.notmycomputer@dontknow.com>
ontario, canada - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 21:38:38 (ZULU)

Thank-you Stefan and Michael for your advice.

I have tried shooting left handed as well as using black tape in conjunction with my shooting glasses and so it is good to know other people have tried these methods and succeeded.

From the additional information you both supplied, it appears I am guilty of not enough persistence...FIVE YEARS OF SHOOTING LEFT HANDED, Stefan?!

Sigh....

I console myself by reminding myself how much pleasure I've derived so far with my shooting and will, likely, continue to do so in the future.

By the way, I have found the FAL discussion to be very interesting as I have embarked on putting together a Stg-58. By completion, it should cost me $1006.00 (US), in case anyone cares to know.

Thank-you for your time,

Duncan C.
Duncan C. <duncan@jps.net>
San Francisco, ca, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 22:06:33 (ZULU)

Wants with this operations partners stuff. It makes you sound real phoney. If I did not know better I would not trust anybody that titles themselves that way. You may be loosing business because people dont trust you. I would hate to see that. I know your buisness is on the up and up, but you may be giving people the wrong idea.

Just trying to help
CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 23:38:50 (ZULU)

This stock best suits its self to the Savage rifle. It is not like the high quality H S or Macmillan stocks and most people would be disappointed if they were replacing them with the Choate. This stock has some strange features that most people ether love or hate. Its best used in conjunction with a low cost rifle project using the Savage action. The nicest thing about this stock is the bedding block. It uses v block bedding with a very nicely machined aluminum block. In my Savage 110fp groups improved greatly from the non bedded factor stock. The stock is very heavy, about 6lbs. I would not what to carry this for very long with a heavy barreled sniper action. The extra weight does help with recoil a little. It’s made out of a dense plastic. It is very easy to reshape, cut or sand this stock to your liking. It has a large pistol grip, which was designed to only allow you to touch the trigger with the tip of your finger. Some people don’t like this. Fit and finish is fair and par with its $165 price tag. The recoil pad is too hard. The manufacturer claims this was to prevent the scope from hitting your eye. I replaced mine with a very large soft pad and like it very much. The bipod adapter for the front rail sucks. I replaced mine with a nice aluminum one that works a lot better. This stock was made to be used from the prone and is difficult to use in other positions. When lying prone it is very comfortable. I could almost take a nap with my eye still aligned with the scope. The bottom lines comes down to you get what you pay for. Your rifle should shoot well with this stock but you will have to live with the weight and the strange layout.

CJ

Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Thursday, July 08, 1999 at 23:43:08 (ZULU)

Give me some tips on how to keep them thar grewps together @ 95 degrees. Don't want a repeat of last weeks "couldn't hit Aunt Girdy in the ass with a 2x4" fiasco.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 00:05:51 (ZULU)

Tell everyone of the new baby you are expecting,don't be shy because it's name dosn't begin with a R or a W,tell us when it's due!!!!

Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 00:17:09 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance JimC
JimC <jimgraphics@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 01:01:26 (ZULU)

darryl
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 01:45:28 (ZULU)

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The sticky Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 02:31:11 (ZULU)

d.fenn@worldnet.att.net
J. STINE <d.fenn@worldnet.att.net>
San Diego, Ca, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 04:50:20 (ZULU)

A few comments about Mikes post about Mcmillian stocks, the A4 in this case. Particulary McMillians comments that their stocks don't need to be bedded. Let me say from the get-go that I know squat about bedding rifles, but I work in the Marine industy so I have a good knowlage of fiberglass, carbon fiber, Kevlar, and the associated high tec laminating resins used to lay up modern race boats. We bolt multipal 1200 hp motors in boats every day and I can say from experience this: You bolt metal to fiberglass, the fiberglass will deteriorate. It doesnt take much imiganation to realize metal is harder and wears less than fiberglass. Bolt the two together, add force and vibration, and the fiberglass with break down in time. How this relates to rifles? I can not picture bolting a steel action into a fiberglass stock and not having the fiberglass deteriorate, thus your action shifting and most likely your accuracy going to hell. I know McMillian uses a very hard filler, I'm looking at my unbedded A2 as I type. But the steel is harder. I would guess you will start to see powerding of the glass, and indentations behind the recoil lug. The action would loosen up in the stock and require tighting every "x" number of rounds. So, in your experience, will McMillian stocks stay sound without bedding in your experiences? From my limited experiences, I feel an aluminum or brass pillar bedding using an epoxy based compound would give you the best structural integerty of bolting an action to a fiberglass stock. YYMV, of course then I may just be nuts....
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
So., Cal, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 05:14:52 (ZULU)

304-446-5526
Rod Ryan
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 13:27:35 (ZULU)

The short answer is that the person posting under "Operations Partner" isn't always me. I'm not the only partner at T.R.G.T. and sometimes we need to post information, but Gooch and I aren't available. One title, no confusion. Drop me a line if you want to hear more.

Hugo Teufel

Hugo Teufel <email@trgt.com>
Littlton, CO, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 14:13:01 (ZULU)

Stefan

PS. If you are looking for affordable match ammo, talk to Rod Ryan. He sells Blackhills ammo wich shot damn straight for me during his June course. Be aware that airlines won't let you take more then 5 kgs worth of live ammo!
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 14:46:12 (ZULU)

Groups opening on hot days: Heat waves cause a distortion and makes the target appear to be higher than actually is. Thats why you want a little wind to kill the distortion. The heat waves are what can cause vertical group stringing on hot still days.

Fiberglass without bedding: Nothing is perfect but a rifle is not a 1200 HP motor. All I know is McMillan said try it. I did and it worked fine. As to boats. Most I have seen were made with Poly Resin. Stocks are Epoxy. Epoxy is much stronger and expensive than Poly. That may be the reason. I am not an expert on this just reported what I learned from doing it.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 16:40:11 (ZULU)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 17:03:38 (ZULU)

If you have not read Scott's piece on Heat Stress on the S/C Training page, I suggest that you spend a couple minutes going so as a refresher.

Especially, if you are on a "Get Sarge" type mission right now....

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 17:44:44 (ZULU)

Greg
Greg <ggreer@kih.net>
London, KY, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 18:29:15 (ZULU)

If you want to but from the factory then I would suggest the PSS. The difference in accuracy is normally minimal from what I have heard but the difference is price is not. You can decide to rebarrel your PSS in the future but that is nexxt to impossible with the Steyr.

My $0.02.
The Shooter <shooter@unix.tamu.edu>
College Station, TX, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 18:52:17 (ZULU)

You will be doing yourself a disservice if you don't look at all the rifle's you are interested in and get current price's on them,only then can you make an informed decision.For my 2 cent's I would look strongly at Sako's TRG-21/41 serie's,for the feature's that are std they are a lot of gun for the money,they have a very good 10rd mag as std on the 21 and a full lenght alloy chassis/rail under the action,and the gun was designed from the ground up as a sniper rifle.
It is worth while checking out the gun and the price,try (riistamaa.fi) a gun shop in Finland,they will export and have a currency calulator on site,price in UK from them should be close to $2000USD,the gun come's with 1x 10rd mag(21 in 308) and a set of sling swivel's,everything else is an accessory.
Hope the above is of use to you.

P.S. Yes I own one,the TRG-21 in 308,the gun did well in New Zealand Army Sniper Rifle Trail's in 1991.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 20:52:52 (ZULU)

Bill Wylde is in the X-ring saying there is going to be a lot of shooting in Ontario within the next month. The Canadian nationals, equivalent to Bisley, are in Ottawa mid August onwards. Search for Dominion of Canada Rifle Association on your search engine and take a look. Old Bill is too bashful to say he is looking for more competition in the F-Class matches. Unfortunately today (9 July) is the deadline for early registration. Entries mailed after today are subject to a $50 late entry fee.

The Ontario Rifle Association have a variety of matches throughout the summer. You would be eligible to shoot sniper-style precision rifles in the F-Class. If you are in Port Hope, then you are not that far from Barrie where the ORA have many of their matches.

The magazine question is tougher. Go to Toronto or Ottawa, open the yellow pages in the phone book to 'newstands' and start writing addresses. Your job is to go visiting and looking at their titles.

The overwhelming majority of shooting magazines in North America are hunting related. The market for police, SWAT and specialty shooting is small. "Tactical Shooter" is published by "Precision Shooter" in Manchester, New Hampshire (?) and is an excellant publication, but not one you'll find commercially. They have a website.

Terry
in Ottawa and missing my range with the esker
Terry Warner <terry_warner@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 20:57:59 (ZULU)

Just of thought. The Savage seems to be king in the cost fight. Most Savage owners will replace the stock and trigger. Rifle $375, Stock $165, trigger $90 thats $630. Now comes the Winchester stealth, Its a 26" heavy barreled push feed 308 with a H S stock. My dealer Informs me it will sell for about $580. Is the Stealth going to be the new king of cheap? Does anybody have any experance with these rifles? How is this rifle going to compair to the PSS sell for $700 to $800?

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 21:12:11 (ZULU)

When you guys are testing ammo for temperature variables, what are you looking for? Group deviation from some norm? How do you determine the norm, an average temp and humidity? Scenerio.......

You are grouping 5/8 at 100 at 60 degrees at 50 %rh, no wind.
The nost extreme conditions that you have shot in are 90 degrees and 60% rh with groups spreading to 1"+. You get a call out to some unknown AO. The temp is 100 degrees and humidity in 75%, let's make it miserable and say there's no wind. You mark is at 900 yards. You have not shot under these conditions. How do you sipher and compute where you are going to aim? The opposite for cold weather extremes also applies, 10 degrees at 20%rh.

Put on you pointy headed thinking caps, Bolt out
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 21:17:11 (ZULU)

Does anyone here travel to England to compete at Bisly,if so leave a post here,we could meet up and I could show you around,for those of you that have not been to Bisly you are missing out it is like a small town devoted to shooting.
(unfortunately it is the only place in England we law abiding British shooters don't get hasseled.)
Daniel out.
Daniel <eatmy@308.com>
port hope, ontario, Canada - Friday, July 09, 1999 at 21:28:41 (ZULU)

Let's talk about parralax, reticle focus and eye relief....
According to Plaster I need to back out the locking-focus ring of my scope, point the scope toward a nondescript surface(a white wall) obtain my cheek weld/eye relief and adjust the focus ring till the mil-dot reticle is sharp,clear and distinct. I should not focus on the reticle for too long or my eye will bring the reticle into focus even though it really isnt...2-4 second glimpses.....Okaaaaay sounds simple enough even for my infantry brainwashed noggin.......Problem....and let me give you all the variables here...Scope no. 1- Leupold 4.5-14x mil-dot side-focus 30mm tube 50mm obj. lens. I wear contacts......sigh.... No matter how many times I try this, The reticle always seems to be in focus!!!! Even with bold adjustments on the locking ring I can't get it to go out of focus!!! I know this sounds like midol-snivelling here, but something does'nt seem right... Scope no. 2- Leupold 4.5x-14x mildot AO 1in tube 40mm obj. lens..-same problem... With the 50mm scope I notice myself piddling with the side focus alot....
Could somebody send me a midol, tagamet and an explanation????

Looking into Lasik surgery as I send this.............
Mike Kirn <mikekirn@hotmail.com>
Zebulon, NC, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 00:45:30 (ZULU)

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 01:01:28 (ZULU)

Any BISLY shooters out there?
Daniel <www.eatmy308@yourmedulla.com>
somewhere, ontario, canada - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 01:32:48 (ZULU)

The PSS and VS don't have extra headspace, they have very long throats... they will typically be 3.1" to 3.2", but the mags will only take rounds that are 2.835" max...

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 02:54:07 (ZULU)

The Kowa TSN 821 is about the best you can get for Target/Varmint shooting. It is BIG. A 20 to 30 power eye piece is about all you need. I think the Leupold would be better for a Sniper though.

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 13:08:29 (ZULU)

Temp: 100 Rel. Humdity: 75% Alt: under 1000 ft. Muzzle Vel: 2735 fps BC: .520 Using G7 VLD Drag Table 168 gr .308, the computer says 20.5 MOA or 82 clicks from 100 yd zero.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 14:26:24 (ZULU)

My question is, what about headspace? I set my seating die up as follows: Chambered an empty case with a partially seated bullet. Measured the OAL after closing the bolt and subtracted .002 and set my seating die to duplicate this. My objective was to avoid excess pressure due to the engagement of the bullet and the rifling.

Is this proper, improper, or what? Comments? Thanks!

Semper Fi!

Roger
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 14:47:37 (ZULU)

Jerry: Bags of money in MikeM's back yard? That the IRS doesn't know about? Hmmmm. I didn't think much of it when he said he "leased" one of his buildings to the folks at immigration...but then, with all the slings he is turning out, bags of money buried here and there, influx of sniper weapons, it is all kind of coming together now. The Undude guarded sweatshop? Better send a bag, no, make that 2, this way Mike...looks like we have work to do.

Old Dog...Undude counsel.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 15:10:18 (ZULU)

You are setting overall length of the cartridge, not headspace. The measurement you are using is to determine the distance the maximum diamter of the projectile is from the LEADE or gradual begining of the LANDS and GROOVES.

Most (not all) factory rifles have longer leades or throats to accomodate all factory produced ammunition. This is also done as a slight fail safe to reduce pressures for certain in-experienced handloaders. REMEMBER - SLIGHT FAILSAFE

Headspace (ie cartridge stretching) is measured from the bottom of the case to the neck. The amount a cartridge headspaces upon expansion from firing is a result of the chamber dimensions when it is cut and the barrel is fitted.

Handloads stretch with each firing slightly changing headspace and this may necessitate either full length sizing ,trimming, or both.

Hope this helps and gives a thread for others to build on!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
wet city, by-gawd, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 15:12:54 (ZULU)

I have a 821 and love it. the best eye piece is the 27 power long eye relief.

Pablito

Thanks for the winchester info. I hope they use the same barrel and just coat it black.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 17:04:35 (ZULU)

Willam you out there,back in England we gotta team up again and kick ass.

I was trying out a Tikka Master today,only cost $800,adj stock,de-tach mag etc...anyone own one ,looks like a good deal,I got 1/2MOA easy @200 yards.

I'm still looking for detailed targets including medulla,CNS,and heart/lungs on them,anyone?

Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
canada - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 19:08:09 (ZULU)

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 20:10:22 (ZULU)

On the Headspace thing, When I measure my fired cases from my M1A before re-sizing, it measures exactly the same as the unfired cases, that is until it is resized. Re-sizing adds .005" to the cases. About 3 to 4 loadings is all I do before scrapping them out.

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 21:47:01 (ZULU)

Slings and money, I have nothing but bills from this business so far.I hope one day to get some return. I just make them as fast as I can when I can and try to make the business not cost me an arm and a leg.

Undude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 22:38:37 (ZULU)

I have a Winchester M-70 push feed short action,I like it more than the Rem M-700, as the bolt handle is longer and the safety is a 3-position and you have a longer magazine length.
My first Question is how is the magazine well spacer removed and doe's this cause feed related problem's as the base of the round's will be positioned further to the rear than normal?
The second question is has any one attempted using a Sako TRG-21 .308 magazine conversion on the Win M-70, and is it technically possible.
The Sako magazine is approx 3.05" long in external dimension's,it is stagged column magazine with a single feed position,much like the pistol mag's off hi-capacity auto's like Browning HP-35's,CZ-75's,etc.
The width of the mag should not matter as it taper's to a single feed position,are there any pit fall's with such a conversion.
I have seen photo's of a Win M-70 that was modified to take the M-14 mag's,the Sako mag slide's straight into position to lockup,it doe's not hookup and pivot backward's like the M-14,AK-47 or the FN FAL.
Any comment's will be of help,thank's.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, July 10, 1999 at 22:50:21 (ZULU)

To the other Chris on the Win M70 magazine.
Try to find a few spare magazines of different length. that way you can afford to play with one. The spacer in the back is spot welded to the the rear of the magazine and they can be a little difficult to remove. I use a spare 30-06 length magazine and made a few different spacers out of aluminum bar-stock for custom length with no problems but that was with the long action. Another problem you will run into is the bolt stop, bolt release bar. You may have to shorten it for the bolt to clear the back of the new magazine to pick up a round. Again, I would order a spare and work on it rather than the original.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 01:47:43 (ZULU)

I find it hard to believe that no one has jumped in and cleared up the incorrect information posted today on the headspace issue - I know that there are plenty of you guys out there that know the real "poop"! You that already know this can skip this post!!

As already stated, cartridge headspace has nothing to do with overall cartridge length and seating depth of the bullet in relationship to the rifle's lands. Headspace on a non-magnum bottle-neck cartridge (.223 Remington, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, etc..) is measured from the case head to a datum point on the case shoulder (not to the neck!). This datum point on the case shoulder is roughly the mid-point of the shoulder. Typically, a new rifle chambered for .308 Winchester will have a chamber with a headspace dimension between 1.630" and 1.636". [SAAMI specs for .308 Winchester call out a range of 1.630" to 1.640".]

Commercially manufactured U.S. ammunition in .308 Winchester will have a headspace dimension right at 1.630" (minimum SAAMI spec), or just a tad under, to ensure that the cartridge will fit the chamber in virtually all rifles chambered for that cartridge. When the cartridge is fired in a bolt-action rifle with, let's say, a chamber headspace dimension of 1.632", the cartridge will become "fire-formed" to that rifle's chamber. That cartridge case will now have a headspace dimension that almost perfectly matches the chamber in that rifle. Assuming that you only use the cartridge case again in that particular bolt-action rifle, there won't be any need to resize the case again in respect to headspace. Only the neck will need to be resized. Yes, the case will stretch and the overall length of the brass case will increase each time you fire it in that rifle - but the headspace will not increase past the dimension of the rifle's chamber (1.632").

OK, the stretching doesn't affect headspace - but it does affect the maximum allowable "trim length" of the cartridge case. A .308 Winchester case has a maximum trim length of 2.015". When the empty case exceeds this dimension it should be trimmed. It is typically recommended that the case be trimmed back to 2.005", and that after 4 trimmings the case should be discarded. Keep in mind that you might reload and fire that same .308 Winchester case in your rifle several times before you get to the point that it is need of a 5th trimming (time to discard the case), but the headspace dimension is still 1.632". If the headspace dimension on that fire-formed cartridge case is increasing after being fired in your bolt-action rifle you have a real problem with the gun!!

This information will not hold true with most (all?) semi-auto rifles. The headspace dimension can and does change after firing in semi-autos (it sure does in my M1A!).

If you're not totally familiar with all this stuff do yourself a big favor and get your hands on a reloading book that covers the info in detail. I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes here, but I've met LOTS of people who reload their own ammo and don't really know what they're doing! The information is readily available - study, study, study!!!

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 01:59:04 (ZULU)

It's done, and you can feed factory loads (at 2.80") and handloads up to 3.1" with no problems. The magazine box for the 30-06 won't work, the action is too short, (They made a short run of .308's on the long action many years ago, but then went to the short action).

Should you want to go back for any reason, just buy a new magazine box, and a new bolt stop, and you're back to square "1".

I've done 5 of these, and they work like owl poop... easy and slick, and you can seat your bullets out to touch the leade, and still feed through the magazine!

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 03:31:40 (ZULU)

Thanks for clearing up the STUPID error in my previous post. I got distracted by a small sibling war over a Poke'mon or some little what-not that spilled over into my office.

You are right, I meant to say DATUM Line, not NECK, and stand humbled and corrected. That is the mid-point BETWEEN shoulder and neck base?

Is the specified 1.6XX" dimensional range shared by all .308 chambers and reamers? I get confused so easy between Semi-auto, Sporter, and the "Match" type chambers. Or is that neck diameters?

Well now for a real question:

Why does semi-auto brass "stretch" if the receiver is locked until the projectile exits the muzzle? Is it chamber dimensions?, headspace? or Voo-Doo?

This should be more fun than the H-K's fluted chambers debacle!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 04:19:29 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance.
Semper-Fi!
Dennis
dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
merced, ca, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 06:26:42 (ZULU)

Well.... I'm back again on the headspace discussion. And again, I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes here and I'm not trying to come across as some kind of "expert" on the subject. I'm only relaying to you what I've learned by reading and through my own experiences.

OK, the headspace dimension on a non-magnum bottle-neck cartridge is measured from the head of the cartridge case to a datum point on the shoulder of the cartridge. It APPEARS to me that the datum point is about the middle of the shoulder - but I'm not sure if that is EXACTLY where it is at! [Maybe I should heed my own advise and study, study, study!!] Looking at data from various manuals it sure as hell LOOKS like the datum point for headspace measurements is the mid-point of the shoulder.

The SAAMI specified range for headspace on a rifle chambered for .308 Winchester is 1.630" - 1.640". This does NOT mean that every .308 Winchester rifle in the world will fall within this specification - it is only a SAAMI recommendation. I don't think that manufacturers are REQUIRED to build their rifles to this spec (maybe they are?), but I personally have never come across a rifle chambered for that caliber that did not fall within a range of 1.630" - 1.636". Typically, match chambers in .308 Win will have chambers pretty damn close to MINIMUM SAAMI spec (1.630"), regardless of whether the rifle is a bolt-action or a semi-auto.

Why does the brass that gets thrown out of some semi-autos increase in headspace dimension? Wish I could give you an absolute answer to that question. My guess is that it has something to do with the fact that on a bolt-action rifle everything is locked up tight through-out the entire firing event whereas the cartridge in a semi-auto still has considerable pressure and/or heat present on the casing when the action starts opening. The cases that come out of my Savage 10FP after firing all measure between 1.631" - 1.632" on my .308 Winchester RCBS Precision Mic - the same dimension that they were before firing. But cases of the same initial headspace dimension come out of my Springfield Armory M1A a few thousandths longer (headspace dimension) after firing. And it's not because there is a big difference in the headspace of those two rifles - my Savage chamber is 1.632" and my M1A is 1.633". I can get away with neck-sizing only on brass that is shot only in the Savage, whereas I must full-length resize the cases that were fired in the M1A (and bring them back to the proper headspace dimension). This kind of difference between bolt-action and semi-auto rifles is mentioned in the instructions that come with the RCBS Precision Mic.

Hope this info is helpful - anyone care to expand on it???

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 06:57:58 (ZULU)

Head space is measured from a specified shoulder diameter to the case head. The shoulder dia. for 308 is .400. Sinclair sells a headspace guage set so you can measure you fired brass and set up your sizing die properly. Once fired brass in my rem 700P LTR measured 1.634, in my Styer 1.632, in my M1A 1.638, and in a 308 grand made by springfield in the 70s 1.643. My sizing die on my progresive is set for 1.628 and on my single stage is 1.632.

RELOAD FED BRASS FOR AN M1A, BAD IDEA. Fed brass is very soft. USING RELOADED FED BRASS IN AN M1A MY CAUSE THE RIFLE TO BLOW UP. Case head seperation and slam fires are the usual culprit. I have seen this happen. It usauly ruins the stock, bolt, stooter face and and anyone standing by the right side of the rifle. The safest way to reload for an M1A is to use IMI or LC brass. only reload the brass 5 times then use it in your bolt gun. It is also a bad idea to single load an M1A and let the bolt slam down on the round. Dirt on the face or firing pin momentum can set of the primer before the bolt is locked.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 13:14:12 (ZULU)

Can any RKI out there help me with a moly ammo question?

I've been having excellent luck with FED .308M out of my AR-10(t), but I just picked up a small quantity of Black Hills .308 moly coat, that I'd like to try. Somewhere I read that once you shoot moly coated ammo, you will never get all the moly out of the bore. And that non-moly ammo may not group as well as before you shot the moly.

Any thoughts or info on this would be greatly appreciated.

Bruce.
Bruce <BCqc@aol.com>
Fort Worth, Tx., USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 14:12:11 (ZULU)

The RCBS case thingee sounds pretty cool, how do you check it to make sure its calibrated right. Is there a gage set? or do you verify with another tool? Enquiring minds want to know!

Cayley,

Thats one heck of a range of headspaces, how do you differentiate ammo? I (to paraphrase the Un-Dude) visualize you sitting cross legged in a candle lit room full of neatly stacked, color coded MTM Case-Gard boxes, toning the Mantras.......... ;-)

Keep it going guys, this is way cool!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY , bY-gaWd, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 14:12:55 (ZULU)

Yes, the RCBS Precision Mic is a pretty neat tool. I've heard that the Sinclair tool CJ mentioned is very good, but I haven't used one. The RCBS Precision Mic is used for the same purpose as the Sinclair tool - to measure fired cases and allow you to properly adjust the sizing die in your press. It also comes with a dummy cartridge "thingie" that is used to determine how far out you can seat the bullet before it touches the lands in your rifle.

As far as calibration of the RCBS gauge goes, the best way I know of to check it is to use a headspace gauge - the kind you would normally put into the chamber of the rifle. [Brownells sells them] Let's say you have a .308 Winchester headspace gauge that measures 1.630". Put that headspace gauge into the Precision Mic and it should indicate "0". [Zero on the RCBS tool is minimum SAAMI spec, 1.630" for .308 Win] The information that came with my RCBS Precision Mics said they would adjust (calibrate) the tool if it was off - just send it to them. I haven't had to send any of mine in - they've been fine.

Those headspace dimensions CJ listed for his .308s are typical of what I've found - the dimensions for the cases that came out of the M1A and Garand changed significantly from their pre-fired condition. You can bet that the chambers on those two rifles don't match the headspace dimension of the brass that comes out of them after firing. The brass that comes out of his bolt guns should be representative of what those gun's chambers actually measure.

For semi-auto .308 Win rifles I set up a full-length resizing die for a headspace dimension of 1.630" - the same dimension factory ammo is set to.

Gary <GSX1166@earthlink.net>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 15:47:57 (ZULU)

To Pablito, Long versus Short Winchester actions.
In my neck of the woods, long action Winchesters chambered for 308, 243 etc. are common as dirt. I think the short action Winchester is a relatively new item. Also all the Winchester match rifles I have ever seen are long action rifles with 308 magazines. Most everyone does it this way because it is easy to use a bolt on clip guide attached to the rear bridge where the rear scope base usually bolts on. A short action winchester would require that the clip guide be milled into the rear bridge. You are probably right in that a 30-06 magazine wont fit in a short action winchester. I have never tried it. In fact,I have never even seen a short action winchester.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 15:48:11 (ZULU)

About your scenario on Friday. What's the load combination and muzzle velocity. I'll run the numbers using my data tables. Computer programs average the BC and that doesn't give an accurate number other than the exact range that the average BC happens to fall into.

But for the hell of arguement. Let's see you're shooting M118 Special Ball Long Range with a MV of 2600 fps.

Let's assume the air pressure is the same as when you zeroed/tested your load. A beginning elevation of 38.75 MOA is on the gun for a 900 yard shot.

Now for the corrections.

-1.75 MOA for air temperature
-2.00 MOA for ammunition temperature
Humidity, little effect.

Corrected final elevation setting is 28.00 MOA from parallel bore or 32.50 MOA from a 100 yard zero. This is standard stuff for special ops snipers who have to go anywhere anytime and shoot scenarios where they have never been before.

If i'm off on the load, let me know, i'll re run the numbers.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 15:49:22 (ZULU)

Yesterday in a very calm. cool, collected (even used Secret deoderant) maner I finally reached the 5 shot/clean breakin mode. So, I figured it is now time to do official sightin.
Thinking it was just me and not the scope, I shot 4, 5 round groups. First group, 1 1/4", 2"High/1"left, made adjustment. Second group, 1 1/4", 1"low/1"right, made adjustment. Third group, 1", 1"high/1/2"right. Last group prior to considering destructive testing of scope was 5/8" with one 1" flyer(not bad), 3/4"high/3/4"left. These are outside edges of groups. IT IS NOT MY SHITTY SHOOTING! WHAT NEXT? Do I now just compensate? A guy beside of me was shooting a 40X and getting 7/16 groups dead center on the bull with a Springfield scope.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 16:06:19 (ZULU)

I own a model 110 in .30-06. I get 3/4" groups with it using 150 grain Sierra gamekings and BL(c)-2 powder. Federal brass and CCI primers. They do a number on deer at what ever range. One day I'll experiment using molly coted 168gr Matchkings.

CJ I also own a 10FP. I spent less that 600 (with scope)and have a rifle that will drill holes in quaters at 300 yards consistantly. At 500 yards I can still group them at less than 3". I have made a milk jug hit at 700 yards. I am quite happy with what I have. No need for another stock, trigger group or expensive scope. BTW I use Varget and molly coted matchkings in this rifle.
Confederate <confederate123@yahoo.com>
Possumtown, Mississippi, USA - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 20:38:30 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, July 11, 1999 at 23:24:01 (ZULU)

I'm using Federal Gold Match 168 grainers. If I go to the standard 175 grainers, everything on the sightin may change anyway. I guess this is one thing that has finally sunk in on this scope. It is not a true finese(sp?)target type 1/4 moa scope that i'm used to. Assuming I could outshoot the gun and scope, it is possible that a perfect one shot will not go into the x due to the fact that the scope will not let you click to the x.

I really am interested on how you pro's handle this seemingly anal problem of not hitting dead on at one hundred with a 1 moa click. I realize that the kill area is about 16 inches vertical and 8" wide. So long as the windage is right, does it really matter that the average group is off a 1/2 or 3/4" high or low??????
Bolt <moblt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 00:25:31 (ZULU)

I take it you have your scope mounted using MK4 type QD ring's,I would check they are at 65in/lb as a reference,re-shoot the gun to confirm which direction the group is off center.Then either move the ring's slightly by increase torq carefully, or strip the bolt out of the ring and stone the offending slide to correct or slim it.
That's all I can think of,maybe that will work,but as you know the MK4 ring's when dismounted will ususally remount with in 1/2 inch of former position.Trial and Error,

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 06:10:56 (ZULU)

I am looking for info on .338 lapua magnum brass. If anyone out there has such a toy, how many reloads are you getting from your cases at standard loadings?

Have there been any noteworthy experiences with Norma or other brass?

To the technophobes ... oops thats me, to the technophiles:

Story has it that the WW2 German FLAK 88 wore barrels so badly a system of replaceable throating was used. Thus saving valuable barrels. Now whilst theres some minor differences between the FLAK anti-aircraft gun and large bore high velocity hunting rifles, is it technically possible to miniaturise this system? eg to .338 Lapua Magnum.

Q. If your wife keeps coming out of the kitchen and nagging you, what have you done wrong?

A. Made the chain too long.

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 06:32:39 (ZULU)

Darryl, Lapua Mag Brass is available from Champions Choice Shooters Supply, in LaVernge Tenn. About $200.00 for a 100 pieces.

Tony, Stick with the 308 Win. Data is evry where for it and it just plain works. Wht reinvent the wheel so to speak. Works well out to 700 yards with 168's and about 775 with 175's. You can shoot past that but results are not as predictable. If you need more than that go to the 300 Win Mag. 260 Remington may eventually be a great round to use, but not until the ammo is available from the factories.

The Undude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 15:21:12 (ZULU)

Now I have not read every post but this is all based on you getting good groups now. If you have done everything and the rifle still wont group, I would try this: Shoot a group at one hundred yards, dial in five minute up and shoot a group. See where it groups. Go 5 minutes up shoot again for group. Go down and left 5 minutes and see if your group is ator near the original spot. If not you may have a scope or problem/Loose reticle. Check the crown for damage also. Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 16:06:42 (ZULU)

Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 16:09:29 (ZULU)

Shannon:
A Leupold M1 10X with mil dots is one of the best scopes around,expensive?YES but the quality is excellent,the mil dots would not cover too much sight picture at all,if your not going past 200/300 yards then you dont really need mil dots unless you foresee going out to longer ranges.

P.S If your a civilian shooter and go to known distance ranges then you wont need the mil dots unless shooting at moving targets.
Daniel out.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
somewhere, canada - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 17:09:50 (ZULU)

If your blokes win I'll send you a case of our finest local brew. Will you take a chance on a case of yours? Later we can argue about who makes the better ale.
James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 18:05:07 (ZULU)

Back to rifles how much would a Accuracy Int cost in the U.S.A,I was offered one back in England for the equivelent of $6000 as a system with S&B 10Xtac,spare mags,cleaning equip and case.ANYONE?

P.S James,I'll show you the way in a few years.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
aomewhere out there., canada - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 21:26:53 (ZULU)

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 21:30:56 (ZULU)

The AW limited edition cost about the same ($6K)- Wait time is another issue. You can see more at this web site :
http://remtek.com/cfi/aw/accint.htm. Mine still sit in a safe
since I want to keep it as a collectible items. I still enjoy
both the Rem. 700's and a new Tikka 595 a lot.

Good shooting.
nhatrang62 <nhatrang62@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 22:32:42 (ZULU)

Regarding the M70 winchester Pre-64 in 30'06 - I saw one (featherweight) listed on the shotgun news website - for $125.00

Check out http://www.shotgunnews.com - look in the gun ads, then drill your way down to the winchester rifles.

Ken :)
Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 22:50:14 (ZULU)

P.S Is the Tikka 595 like the master sporter because if so I saw one going for only $1000 whereas in England it cost's $2000.
Good shooting to you too.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
F*!K the anti's, canada - Monday, July 12, 1999 at 23:10:06 (ZULU)

Larry J. Porter <skporter@arn.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 00:23:41 (ZULU)

Question for all:

Should I purchase a Tasco 10-50X56 with side focus in place of a 10X42 SS ? My thinking is I can just leave the magnification at 10X most of the time and adjust up only as needed. This has one disadvantage; the objective lense is HUGE. BTW, this is for paper target practice only.

Regards.

Nha Trang62 <NhaTrang62@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 06:41:07 (ZULU)

Most people use the current military lube called CLP (Breakfree). Personally I use LSA which was the previously recommended lube as it has a lot more body to it. And it doesn't drain away or migrate.

Here is a good site to start with: http://www.ar15.com/
Fulton armory is also a site with valuable tips for newer enthusiasts.

Get ahold of the military manuals at gunshows. Cheap and full of great info. As a matter of fact I believe one of them can be downloaded at the AR15.com site.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 08:54:59 (ZULU)

Daniel: Did you ever get my e-mail about getting together?

TO ALL: HAs anyone of you ever handled a Finnish Lynx rifle? It's a straight pull action and looks promising.

L8er guys!

Stefan

GUN CONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!!
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 09:23:28 (ZULU)

Stefan:
I did get your E-mail on Saturday but it said to E-mail you when I got back to England,I'm not going back for another 4 weeks,we can still talk while I'm here though,do you know of any good sniper or LR shooting cources near you?There's a company in England called Riflecraft who run Tactical/sniper cources and LR shooting I have'nt been there yet but sounds good they also build VERY nice custom rifles.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
somewhere out there., Canada - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 12:38:53 (ZULU)

I don't know of any civilian-run snipercourses here in Europe. That riflecraft thing sounds good although I'm sure it can't beat SMTC. Rod runs the best. Period! Do you know whether riflecraft is on the Net somewhere?

BTW. If you want to spend your hard-earned cash on something AT-like, why not consider a Sako TRG-21/41 or a Blaser? I'm starting to like the concept of straight-pull rifles, hence my question about the Lynx rifle. I don't really appreciate the looks of the Blaser and the Lynx I saw on the pictures (not the one on the website) looked quite promising.

L8er!

Stefan

Self-Pity

I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

D. H. Lawrence

-Yes, I had the guts to go and rent GI Jane yesterday evening, because there was nothing else on the boob-tube, not even Jerry Springer re-runs. God, what an awefull movie! The only thing that saved it was D.H. Lawrence and he's been dead for 69 years, GO FIGURE!-
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 13:05:19 (ZULU)

Stefan,

Just as CLP is not the ideal fouling cleaner it will do the job in a pinch. But then, so will LSA.. I have done the test and know it to be true. As an experiment, the next time you come home from the range use LSA for a cleaning agent. When you are done, clean again with Shooters Choice. No fouling will come out, except copper. At least this is what I found using dirty 748. Perhaps after leaving the fouling in the barrel for a week a different answer would be appropriate. I know that cleaning the inside case necks is very easy if done soon, and very difficult if left to harden.

This experiment was done only as a test and it is not my normal cleaning fluid. But someone on the AR list said LSA would not provide the "C" part of CLP. I just had to find out for sure.

Some people get all upset when they find a couple of gas rings lined up and they think this is the root of all their functioning problems. Wrong. At +5 degrees Fahr. my AR-15 rifles will almost function without any rings at all. The carrier will move back far enough to eject and pick up a fresh cartridge, but not enough to set the hammer. This happened about 15 times in a row and then I installed one ring. The rifle then functioned flawlessly. So not much gas is needed to work one of these engines. I have seen several rifle that had way to much friction because the gas rings were too large. And I'll bet the gas ring chamber wasn't finely honed either. They weren't my rifles so I didn't putter with them.

I will admit to getting the germ for this test off the ArmaLite forum. The ArmaLite spokesman said the AR-10 would probably function without any rings at all.

Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 13:25:29 (ZULU)

I have been using the Harris "S" model bipods for several years on my M1A's with very good results. I use an Uncle Mikes swivel stud with machine threads, and stainless steel nut that I rounded the shoulders off of with a grinder. Next I take a rotary file ( Dremel Tool ) of about 3/8 diameter, and cut a little counter sink centered on the gas vent in the bottom of the stock in front of the front sling swivel. I use some Devcon Crystal Clear epoxy to hold it in the hole, and also to coat the front end of the stock to help prevent cracking.
When you make the countersink, just go down about half the thickness of the nut. While you are at the hardware store, get a "thread tap" to fit the nut so you can clean out the epoxy. It works very good. Also, from Brownell's get a thumb-screw for the Harris pod, and you won't be fumbling for a coin to install or remove the pod. Be sure use
a swivel type pod so you can prevent canting the rifle. I have two pods, one extends to about 13" for prone, and the other one goes to about 25", and works good from the sitting position.

Best Regards, and Good Luck!!
BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 13:39:03 (ZULU)

I have a Rem 700P LTR. Using 168mk my gun likes 42.4 grains of varget with IMI cases. They crono just over 2500fps in the LTR and 2590s in my M1A. IMI cases are heavy military type case. If your using fed,rem or win cases try 43.5 to 44 grains of varget with the 168mk. The LTR should shoot good out to 600 meters.

Pete

How did you know what I looked like in the basement? I have developed a color strip code like whats on resister. Know red brown green blue was that 1.628 or 1.643..................? OH NO!

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 13:47:36 (ZULU)

The Sako and Blaser are both quality rifles but the do not posses the attraction of an AT rifle.Perhaps the Sako and Blaser are just too futuristic looking for my liking.
Good shooting.
Daniel.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
somewhere out there, canada - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 14:50:19 (ZULU)

I currently own a Savage FP110 in .308. This is on a Choate stock, with a B&L Elite 3000 3-9x40. It currently shoots better than I can, and I'm verry happy with it except for one item, I'm left-handed and the rifle isn't. :-(

So, I'm in the process of putting together another rifle that I'll get along with a little better. This brings me to my question: I'm looking for a good value in a stock that is lighter than the Choate Ultimate Sniper Stock, relatively stable when exposed to various weather conditions, and still under $200. (when the laughing stops, let me continue...) I'm on a pretty tight budget, or I'd just go with a McMillan. I'm not Arnold so I'd like something under 6 pounds w/o the barreled action. I live in the NorthWest and plan to hunt in less than perfect conditions, so a regular wood stock would be too unstable. I'm considering a laminate stock, but can't find very much information on them. If anyone has any (positive) suggestions, or any experience, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
Mike

Mike <mrouten@hotmail.com>
Vancouver, WA, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 15:24:12 (ZULU)

Daniel: Man, one wouldn't say you are from a continent where everyone seems to have either an AUG or something else that looks like it's from StarWars. Where have you been? I'm currently awaiting my phased plasma rifle in a 40 watt range (anyone recognise Arnold S. here). It's supposed to be pretty accurate although it takes all the fun out of wind-reading etc. Do you think it'll be banned in the UK? I'd like to show it to you when I come to Bisley. (The real reason I ask is that I need a barer for the batteries of course. Hee hee!)

ALL: Kinda dull without McNab around, ain't it? You feel like talking about gun-control a bit more... ;-)

Ron: Did you try to clean your food-handling equipment with it as well? Says not to do that on the bottle, but I guessed you might have tried that anyhow... :-)

L8er all!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Feeling goofy, very goofy in good old, sheep infested (oops, there I go again) The Netherlands - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 16:54:52 (ZULU)

I've listened to several of you dudes talking about non US Built Rifles, but I have to say I will stick to our rifles. I have not shot the Acc. International, but Blaser did not impress me or the Steyr SSG as better mouse traps. Each there own I suppose.

Just finished writing a review for the TRGT Data Book. I am impressed with it. I will probably send it to Tactical Shooter and Minute Of Angle for publication in a few days. All you guys with the FBI/Marine Style books just file them and contact TRGT for the next generation of books.

By the way US Optics is coming out with a new scope. It is designed to compete with the MK4 in price but with more adjustment and better optics. I should have one for testing in Mid August. I will let you know.

All the guys that sent feed back on the slings thank you very much.

UnDude/Mike Out
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 17:37:57 (ZULU)

Anyone tried the HTR (H.S precision),read a review about it looks good?

AT1-C24 OR AI AW?That is the question,similar prices,go American or stick with Britain?UNDUDE I dont blame you for sticking with your rifles they are excellent but you must admit the AI AW is tempting.
Daniel.
P.S How much will one of those TRGT Data books cost?
Oh and I've put a subscription in for tactical magazine to be sent to my home in England but does anyone know where I can get MOA magasine?
Good Shooting.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
waiting to be back home, Canada - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 19:13:21 (ZULU)

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 20:08:04 (ZULU)

With the opening of the Sniper Country PX I took a break from writing. My thinking was that certain people might view any review I wrote from that point on as a conflict of interest. Some have expressed the feeling that if I happen to carry the product in review, I will not give it an honest assessment. A few of you have kindly expressed this opinion via private mail and I appreciate your candor. But I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Let me tell you why. I carry no inventory. I simply make products available at what I hope are decent prices and if someone can save money buying something from me, I feel great about it. Like many of you, I have little discretionary cash for the big items and am always looking for a way to get a product for less. In the case of the PX, if a product does not sell, I am not concerned. Since I have no inventory (beyond a few small items) I do not have the overhead that might drive one to say or write something they do not mean or believe in. I drop ship 99% of what is listed direct from the factory which means I do not need to invest much in the PX. I do the PX in part as a favor for our readers and in part as an experiment to see if one can actually make a web site self sustaining. The jury is still out on that but it has been fun and somewhat educational.

What this all boils down to is this: As bad as I sometimes am at it, I love to write. I enjoy putting something through its paces and finding what makes it tick. I am opinionated and like most folks of my ilk, I like to share those opinions. Most of all I enjoy sharing these experiences with my fellow shooters and friends on Sniper Country. To this end, I plan on finishing up several reviews I have sat on and soon post them on the site. Some of you will surely point out that I happen to carry some of the items on the PX and you may again raise the issue of conflicting interests. This can not be helped. In the case of the three HS stocks I have reviewed, and sat on, I had received the stocks (for review) long before the PX opened. They are one reason I decided to carry those products. I was impressed enough to want to sell them. So, for the nay sayers among you, I make you a promise; I will review every product that comes across my desk with the honesty and open mindedness that has always been a trade mark of a Sniper Country review. But I can not simply quite writing for the site. I enjoy it too much. I hope you all enjoy our efforts in the year to come. We have some new writers helping out and they bring different views and experiences to the fold. Best of all, they have allowed me to screw off all summer (don’t I wish)!

Now back to your regular programming…

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 20:31:14 (ZULU)

Now on to reloading...
Torn between the Dillon 550B and the RCBS. Know there is a fairly large gap in price. Your thoughts on progressive versus non-progressive reloading and the quality of the Dillon products. Must start soon, running out of ammo!!!!

Also.....
Next rifles to break in are two Colt Match AR's. I have never had a "match barrel" before. Are the breaking procedures the same?

Next.....
More thinking on the *&^(&%^#$^& M3. I may have this sighting in and grouping thing all bassakwards. Maybe I shoud wait until I get a load that I want to use all the time before having a coronary over factory ammo. I may have to go through this hassle all over again with a final load. ????????????????????

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 21:20:08 (ZULU)

Unfortunately our government did decide on buying the Canadian Diemaco C7 rifles. The tests showed the Steyr AUG to be the best, but the Glock 17 had then just replaced the Browning P35's and they wouldn't buy more Austrian stuff for a little while... Duh! Now were stuck with a damn M-16 copy...

Have fun, you damn Brit!

Stefan

BTW. Are you in Canada for business or pleasure?
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 21:41:33 (ZULU)

I do not take offence,you are quite right it is the biggest,poorest,most expensive,giant steaming pile of SHIT ever devised and now I think they know it but their pride stops them from atmitting it and going to another weapon,the SUSAT scope is interresting though.
No offence to the Austrian's but the AUG looks a bit flimsy as well,how could your government replace the Glock,it kicks ass.
I'm in Canada for both pleasure and work,and I am having fun.

Which SMTC course Basic or Advanced did you go on?If you have'nt been to advanced we could team up for it.
Daniel.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
banging away, Canada - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 22:21:01 (ZULU)

Good to see you enjoyed your holiday in the state's,I have seen the website on the Lynx rifle and it look's interesting,e-mailed them re; price etc and no reply,that was week's ago.Rumour has it they made a sniper version in .338LM for the sniper trial's in Finland,it appear's to have lost out to the Sako TRG-41.

All,

Can any one give me a reason why the Sako TRG-21/41 serie's are so dear in the USA,as usually America has the best price's on rifle's providing you shop around,sourced from riistamaa.fi,which is a gunshop in Finland(able to make a profit at it's price's).The cost is around $1500USD,even allowing for shipping and import duty the cost should be around $2000USD(that's just the rifle and 1 mag).
I have played with the AW rifle,I have not shoot it though,and at the price's I have seen quoted,any were from $4000-$5000 it is very over priced in my opinion and not worth that amount of money.In NZ I can buy TWO Sako TRG-21/41 with scope mount's and Bipod's and Muzzle brake's,as limited as my knowledge is reguarding SWS,I would like to think I am a reasonably practical sort of bloke.
And having said that the TRG-21/41 SWS is not worth 1/2 a AW,in my opinion it is a SWS of the same high order,both have 3-lug 60 degree lift bolt's,10 shot mag,heavy alloy chassis etc,etc.....

Straight Pull Rifle's,
Yes just like you Stefan, I am interested in the theoritical inprovement in speed,however most concept's are either too dear or they do not look like they could handle some abuse.I have thought of using a Mauser 96 in building a rifle,maybe even in a bullpup configuration.Interesting to see how good or bad they are?

Later Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 22:27:00 (ZULU)

Guy with the new LTR; try A-MAX 178 & 168 gr. moly's. I've used them with h4895, Varget, 4064, and 748. They seem to shoot as well as anything Sierra has made. The 175 MK's however, are working best for me. I tried Sierra's 175 to 180 gr. chart for the 178's & of course,their 168 MK chart for the 168's.

Just got a new rifle put together. If any of you guys come across Warne rings & bases, don't be afraid of them. They may look dainty, but they are plenty rugged. Less hardware,too.

All you guys moaning about M3 l'pold knobs, give the mfr a call. They can change them to M1 1/4 MOA knobs for less than a new scope. A lot less. I stopped by there about a week ago and bought a .308M knob in yards. A smiling young woman came out and took my money and sent me on my way. By the way, they don't even bother trying to correct people, but it's pronounced "loop-holed".

If you refuse to believe your M3 knobbed scope can be made to behave, E-mail me. I have brought along 4 so far. They are all healthy. I can also find a good home for them.

Mike, how long has it taken McBros to put together your test rifle ? H.S. Prec.? Just curious.

All yawl stay awake. We only have 4 1/2 months left to turn off our computers.
Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Portland, Or., USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 22:52:17 (ZULU)

You sir, are incorrigable!

Depity and I were just discussing "Loop-Holes" and similar unique phrases a little while back. That and 500 yard shots at deer from 150 yards!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 23:36:39 (ZULU)

Lastly, anybody looking for an economical ($280 dealer, $360 from Cabela's) mil-dot scope alternative, I can and do recommend the Sightron version, at least in the 4-16x42mm that I bought. It is rugged, repeatable, clear, and a good value. One piece tube, fully multicoated optics, target knobs (with audible clicks, 1/8 m.o.a.), and adjustable objective. My only complaint is that the ocular (rearmost) lens is virtually flush with the end of the scope (no rubber eyeguard, FYI), so I put the Butler Creek flip-up cap on it to provide a margin of shelter (from fingerprints, etc.) However, the front lens cap, as recommended in the Cabela's catalog, is TOO SMALL, so you have been warned. BTW, the scope comes with a 2.5" or so sunshade, but no lens covers of any sort. Shame on them, and the LOO-POLD folks too for not including these.

This scope is fairly compact, but has more mounting space on the tube than a Nikon 6.5-20, for example. However, the bell is a bit larger than some, like the Nikon, even though its objective lens is 2mm smaller. NOTE: The Sightron (Sigh-Tron or maybe Sight-Ron) does not come with any instructions as to the use of the mil-dot retical, so now you know.

Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at 23:55:53 (ZULU)

Well, I think I may have found something I might want to get.

Up 'til now, I had been planning to get a left-handed Remington 700 since Winchester doesn't make but a VERY few left-handed guns, and the left-handed 700 VS is available in .308. Then I found another possibility today (yes, I realize that there are other rifles out there that cost more, but I'm looking for a budget rifle at the moment).

The rifle I found today was a Savage. Something seems screwy about the model number, because it said it was a .308 110FLP. (Short actions are 10s, long actions are 110s, so the .308 should be a 10 instead of a 110). The FP is the Tactical model, with the L being a lefty model.

The story with it is an officer bought it to use, but then has been reassigned and won't need it. It hasn't even had a scope mounted on it yet. But, since it's been bought and is now being re-sold, it's at a decent price, within my budget.

I'm not overly fond of the stock, but can swap it out later. I don't know a thing about Savages, though. The nice thing is the price, and that it is a lefty model.

My question to all of you is, will I be reasonably happy with this rifle to start on? All my real rifle work to date has been on the M16A2; this is my first venture into the world of bolt guns (disregarding my .22 plinker).

Any and all opinions, comments, suggestions, are VERY welcome.

Thanks everyone...

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 00:21:22 (ZULU)

Hey Mike, glad to hear the ups truck delivered your finely tuned firestick in one piece (and ahead of the McBros rifle, heheh). Hope it shoots for ya. She should be a gem.

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 02:29:09 (ZULU)

Bolt, do you have any suggestions or should I start cussing right now?

What are you all doing about sun shades on these
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 03:53:44 (ZULU)

I talked with Garth at "LEE-ah-pohld" (come on, I'm an East Tennessean, I HAVE to say it like that!) about the VariX-IIIs LR M1/M3s and sunshades. His response was that "When we develop the sunshade lockring for the M3 you'll have to send the scope to us for installation. At this time I don't have any information on when this ring will be available."

The jist of the conversation indicated that the military applications required that they leave the threading for a sunshade off. As his statement indicated, they are developing a replacement lockring that will have threads on it.

'Til then, a blackened index card and a rubber band will do for me... 'course, I'm not shooting with a 'real' scope (yet!).

L8R,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 04:14:36 (ZULU)

Thanks for any help
Manny

Manny <MBM74@prodigy.net>
Queens, NY, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 05:25:30 (ZULU)

ClayV <clayandteri@integrityonline.com>
Springfield, Oregon, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 08:01:07 (ZULU)

44.0 gr of Varget will work quite well with anything up to 178 gr Hornady NM slugs. Just make sure that you are using commercial cases above 175 gr. weights.

The data I posted a few weeks back included the Berger 175gr VLD's in addition to 168 A-Max's, 175 BTHP's, and 178 gr National Matches and the pressure should be reasonable at any survivable temperatures.

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 10:06:08 (ZULU)

Paul <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 10:08:54 (ZULU)

Gentlemen.........the Dillon versus RCBS press issue please !!!!!!

Also............issues on breaking in an AR match barrel !!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't know how valid this is but a company called HOPLITE, Inc has Fed GM308M2 175's for $309.00 per case. Wait until 10:00 to call so I can confirm and get mine first!
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 12:06:09 (ZULU)

Clay,
I would stay away from the real high power scopes there for punching paper or little varmints not tactical shooting. Try the Tasco Tactical with the mil dots its around $300 and from the sounds of it a damn fine scope for the money.

JR,
Hey stranger, I had to drink your cold beer yesterday when it hit 102 out here. (You can only keep that stuff on ice for so long(HA). Sounds like your keeping pretty busy out there. I talked to Jeff Hoffman from Black Hills at the shoot in Nebraska and he told me he was going to start loading 6.5x284 ammo for Norma. We may have to keep and eye on this project. He said he was hoping to get 3100 to 3200 out of it wouldn't that be a barrel burner??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmil.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 13:06:53 (ZULU)

T

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 13:39:15 (ZULU)

Gents, I am still casting about for a beater SKS or something similar with which to continue my experiments... one of you has an old SKS or MAS with a shot out, pitted, bent barrel that you will never use but can't bring yourself to throw away. Here's your chance to let it go out in a bloop of glory and contribute to the community's base of knowledge... you know who you are... give it up!
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 14:59:59 (ZULU)

Man, look around your garage, the list goes on and on.
I know, it sucks that Leupold doesn't have one yet, but to get the job done "now" you gotta use what you got on hand.

Les, Ole buddy.
Get your eyes off of that Savage & lean more for the Rem. 700.
And that's an order!!!! ;-)
Hey man, been there-done that. ( you know I'm a lefty also.)
Rem.700 VS isn't that much more $$$ & you know it works.
Optins & gun work is better than a Chevy truck.
And it's been proven over, and over, and over and......

Don't be afraid to use a Rem. 700 long action if you want to go custom on your rifle.
I gotta go swim laps now, but I'll keep in touch to see how things are going. Hill-billies got to stick to gether, ya-know.

T-man,
Hi sweet-heart. ;-)

I'm outta here!!!!!
TN. Hill-billy. <none for now@juno.com>
back in , IL., USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 15:17:56 (ZULU)

As far as the Savage being a good start; Yes. If this is your first rifle and you do not have a ton of cash to throw into the pot for somethign you probably do not need anyway, the Savage is a fine first, and some would claim, second rifle. It has a tight chamber and a good barrel. It is probably one of the only production rifles with 100% lock up between the bolt and the receiver. Many folks have seen excellent accuracy out of their rifles, anywhere from .4" to .8" @ 100 yards. Even with that crappy stock. But like you say, you will want to upgrade the stock someday. The McMillan A2 is real popular for this. If the price is right, but the 110FLP and go have fun.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 15:32:48 (ZULU)

Now, Bolt, just how close to zero are you? Depending on your mount you can nudge it a bit to get closer to the X, but if your group average is falling with in a half an inch vertically I wouldn't be sweating this too much. You should be able to get with in a 1/4 inch or less on windage and a half inch on elevation. Maybe better. With this tolerance most of your rounds should impact on or near the centerline of the sight picture anyway, just from the dispersion. If they are a tad high do not sweat it. What mount are you using? I can not wait to hear from you when you try to go to 800 or 900 yards! With out a tapered base it can be though if your zero is near mechanical zero! If all else fails, ask one of our gun gurus to figure out the thickness of the shim you need under the front and rear to get you dead on at 100 based on you current zero.

You might want to check the alignment of the scope base mounting holes in your receiver. If they are not perfect you can loosen up the screws and turn the base a little on the loose screws. Tighten them back down and go re-shoot. If you moved the base in the right direction it’ll get you closer to where you want to be. I know, it ain’t ideal but it works in a pinch. Of course this only works if your base has slightly oversize holes.

ALL you Remington owners: I spoke with Rusty down at Autauga yesterday. He will be sending me a rifle to review for a few weeks. This is a stock 700P that Autauga had smithed in a similar fashion to the method I wrote about in TS mag last year. They now provide this service for 700 owners. I believe you may also buy the rifle direct from them with the work already completed. This is a good option for LE since it technically "came that way" and should, with luck, negate any legal issues in court after a call out where shots were fired. Maybe not. At any rate, I’ll put it through its paces and let you all know how it holds up in a few weeks.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 15:58:02 (ZULU)

I'm weakening! I'm turning to the dark side! Aiyeee!!!!!!

Seriously, this Savage is LESS THAN HALF of what a 700VS would cost me; if money wasn't an issue, I'd get the Remington in a heartbeat, but this is one I don't think I should pass on...

AND: it's better to have a Savage in hand that I can shoot, than to NOT have a Remington or anything else to shoot, eh?

Scott:

I've received oodles of emails explaining this Savage 10/110 thing. The short-action model 10 is a recent addition to the Savage paddock; prior to that all of their rifles in this series were long-action 110s. This is a .308, and the model number is 110; it might be one of the last long-action ones, I suppose. The F means synthetic stock, and the P means police/tactical, and the L means left-handed.

Yes, the stock bites, and the trigger will probably (WILL) need some (A LOT OF) work (OR REPLACEMENT). But I can put the difference between the Savage and the Remington into the scope, so I can get some better glass onto it.

Thanks, everybody!

L8R,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 16:01:39 (ZULU)

I guess I'm one of the lurkers here and have only posted a couple of time but maybe I can lend some experence here. I have the Savage 110fpl .308 long action. It's a good starter rifle for people on a budget like me. As someone has already said you can handload rounds to just off the land and still fit them in the mag. Also it's a good shooter. It will hold under 1 M.O.A. out to 500 yards (the longest range I've shot it.) The factory stock does suck but the rifle can be made to shoot with some work most of which you can do yourself. If you have any questions feel free to E-mail me.
Daniel <hinesd@gators.net>
Lacrosse, Fl, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 16:59:00 (ZULU)

I'm still looking for anyone who has used my sling to email me with your thoughts about them.

Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 17:27:26 (ZULU)

Which press. That's not a tough question... not like whether to get a Toyota Celica or Honda Accord, where they are almost the same, and minor things will make the decission.

It's more like, a Honda Accord or a Toyota Pick-up truck... they do different jobs. If you load different calibers, and not many rounds of each (a few hundred), or vary your loads a lot, then change calibers and vary more things, you will love a single station press (get the heaviest you can... don't get a "starter press").
If you load large "batches" of one caliber (500 or more of one setup)... the same load/bullet, then get a progressive, and you will be very happy. I would suggest you get a single station, then a progressive... there are a lot of things you can't do (or can't do well) on a progressive.

On your M3-LR... pick your load, and then use nail polish to zero it in. The most you will be off is 1/2"... bup a layer of nail polish on the bottom of the front ring if you want the group to go up... on the back ring if you want the group to go down... 1/2 thousandth will move the group 1/2" at 100. If the first application doesn't do it, then build it up. The stuff dries fast enough that you can do it at the range, let it dry, and try it, and adjust it if necessary... and you can remove it if you have to... use black (or Pink!!)

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 17:57:11 (ZULU)

Mike, don't sweat it. I got the comment from a few sources and generally agreed with the reasoning, but not the end result (me not writing!). But since no one has been forth coming with a review of the sling I will do it for SC. That or wait forever hoping someone will put "pen to paper." The product is too neat to ignore just because I list it on the PX. Give me a couple of weeks for photos and we should have it posted.

Leslie: Get the Savage. Shooting something is better than shooting nothing. And in this case the something just happens to shoot pretty darn well. Nice thing is that if you ever want to move in a different direction, rifle wise, you can use the rings and scope on the next new toy. So you'll only have had to invest for the new rifle and base. Go forth and practice.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 18:55:33 (ZULU)

Sorry, but the Robin's egg blue pumps belong to Gooch!... and he's wearing them at Carlos II.

The 6BR is giving me grey hair... the .266" neck has a taper to .264, so my first efforts were iffy!... (I'll send you a e-mail), but I dug out my old bench gun (a 222 Mag, w/2" Unertl) and am working up loads for this falls Crow season (P.E.T.A. has my photo on their wall!!)... and with V-Max's it's shooting smaller groups than it ever did in serious matches... yesterday's best was .13" for 5 and .23" for 10... have switched away from "dirty" 748 to cleaner H-4895, thought it measures like toothpicks.

Been shooting, (and loading) about 500 rounds a week since the heat wave broke... still can't hit skit!!

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 19:29:16 (ZULU)

Ken, not happy with 1/2 MOA? If it works, take it apart and find out why! I have had great results with V'get and H'day 178 Amax molys. I Used the Sierra recipe for 175 to 180 bullets and worked from there.
You might find your OAL longer than MKs. With MKs close to the lands and feeding in a magazine, the same OAL with Amax bullets (set with a seating die and stoney point tool) proved to long to feed. I thought the chamber was cut short 'nuff. I was gonna say ogive but I can't pronounce it.

Shot with the rimfire silhou, syllwhoe,... outline guys and gals this weekend. You gotta give that a try. You will probably be impressed with the marksmanship of some of these folks.

Saw a few more "Damn all M3" posts today. I give up. I am now sure that they are crap. If you fellow M3 haters will get hold of me, we can get an apparently huge pile of them and I'll personally drive out to the manufacturer and throw them, one at a time, at their front door.

(notice how I didn't say Leupold)

Just read the Arnold rifles posts. Milk jugs? What the hell? 1600 yds? Maybe he had it backwards and he was throwing the jugs at the rifle. The rebuttals were very impressive. Debunkers are a blast! Check out their site anyway. Their Apollo action is a piece of work. When you're done, go order a Remington from TBA or another custom builder.

I wonder when we're gonna see souped up, one off Savages? Hey, anyone got a Savage short action for sale?

Smile.

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
PDX, Oh for the love of God egon, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 19:50:04 (ZULU)

Get the Dillion. I have a 650 and love it. Have loaded over 30,000 rounds on it. I have loaded some very good 308 and 223 with it. The 550 is easier to use and the convertion kits are less. The US palma teem is using the 550 to load ammo for 800,900 and 1000 yards. I wish I had a 550 for load developement and then the 650 to turn them out. Use dillion dies with there press. The ammo will be more accurate because thier dies and made for progessives.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 20:22:27 (ZULU)

I shot my LTR (20” barrel PSS) at 500 meters for the first time Sunday. It has Baer bases, MK4 rings and a VX3 M1. It grouped 9in high at 500 meters using Sierra Infinity dope. WHY?
Crono data

2500fps, 90 deg f, 40%rh, 30.00 pres, at sea level, sunny

Dope data

2500fps, 168 Mk, 90deg f, 40%rh, 29.95 pres, at sea level, scope 1.7 above bore (This might be the problem. Didn’t know what to use with the tapered bases. Back of scope is 1.7 above bolt center). At 500 meters need 16.5 moa up from 100 meter zero.

Range conditions

80 deg f, 30%rh, pres? 300-500 feet above sea level, 0-deg slant angle, mostly sunny. Shots taken between 1300 and 1400(afternoon). Heavy mirage.

CJ

Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 21:10:55 (ZULU)

:-P ThpppppTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;-)

I agree about the resale value on the Savage; if that wasn't so, I wouldn't have been "given" it. Like Scott said, I can get a good scope and rings on it, and then when I grow into a Remington (soon, I hope!) I can migrate the nice scope over, and have the Savage to give to my kid brother if I do end up hating it later. If it isn't too bad, I'll have a second gun to go with a Remington.

And yes, if I don't "lie", my name is Les Bright! ;-)
(There's a reason why I always go by Leslie!)

Regardless, it's home now. NIB, but at a used price. It'll buy me time to get a Remington, at least. (Can't have just one, now can I?) Now to go find some ammo to start breaking it in..... :-)

L8R,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 21:39:02 (ZULU)

You think that 1600 yard thing is something, check out their web site and look at the testimonials. The 'host' of some sporting TV show supposedly used a sporter .300 Mag and shot a - get this - 3/4 inch group at 1000 (yes, that's one thousand) yards. When's he going to do it again in a sactioned match so he can take the record? Yuk, yuk. Even if the equipment is very good, just the marketing hype is enough to turn me off on them. If it's good then it's good. They don't need to stretch the claims to the point of ludicrousness.

Oh well. Some folks will believe anything they read.

I'm gone.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Cooling off slightly Oakland, CA, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 22:29:39 (ZULU)

Tell them Buk Says PISS OFF.

hey, I can say that, right, no under age folks lurking....

Even if you were a commercial site (which isn't true), guess what?
Turn the damn channel, surf a different site,
whine to congress (unfortunately they'll listen), but above all, if
you're gonna be unhappy or bitch, P I S S O F F!

This site gets my vote for the best damn site on this crappyvision
on my desk.

Consider me vented, (no i didn't pass gas) :)
buk
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Tiredofthecrapin, Louisiana, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 22:41:50 (ZULU)

Ludicrousness?

heheheheh...smile.

that made me feel better. thanks.

buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Wishiniwasshootindownin, Louisi-anna, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 22:59:05 (ZULU)

al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
SMokin' in Steamy, Ohio, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 23:30:17 (ZULU)

1. What bullet are you using?
2. What air temp did you zero the gun at originally, do you have all of the original environmental conditions? If so, post them, please.

3. For height of the scope, use the elevation knob on the scope as the point to measure height above the bore centerline. That's the center of the erector cell that moves up and down within the scope body itself.

Without further information, assuming that you are shooting 168 gr. Sierra MK at an velocity of 2600 fps using a 24" barrel. You are going to loose 2 MOA right off of the top because of the 100 fps drop in muzzle velocity.

Second, My data shows an elevation of 14.50 MOA from a 100 meter zero. So with that in mind we have a difference of 2 MOA between the sierra data and my data tables (which are hand calculated, not computer generated).

Third, factor that you cannot control is angle of jump, the induced additional elevation that is encountered by the muzzle of the gun jumping from the ignition and acceleration of the bullet down the barrel. Another reason why COMPUTER generated data is no good for long range shooting.

Send me the other data and i'll get your error down to under .25 MOA

Dean
Cayley <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 14, 1999 at 23:50:20 (ZULU)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.CPM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 00:34:15 (ZULU)

Semper-Fi!
Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@aol.com>
Merced, Ca, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 00:40:18 (ZULU)

Mike;
Please download this and save for your endorsements
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 00:48:38 (ZULU)

ANYONE know how much a Mk4 M3 would cost me in the USA? Back in England it cost's me the equivalent of $1600.
Daniel out

Daniel(the British one) <awhiting@idirect.com>
somewhere, Canada - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 01:07:36 (ZULU)

.300 Ultra Mag is based on a modified .404 Jeffries case and 'sposedly a .338 version is in the works........

Some folks been pooh-pooh'ing it, but I'll bet thats either because they didn't get a free gun from Remington, or they're too lazy to develop a good load, while getting the snot knocked out of them like us trajectory-crazies.

Same things were said about the .260 Remington, and the data presented here on The Duty Roster by Pat (MrBullet) and Jeff A.(electro-boy) totally CRUSH that whimpering and catter-wailing.

Bolt,
I'll trade ya two Vari-x III's for that Loop-hole M-3!

Chao Dudes!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 01:36:33 (ZULU)

Using your method my scope is 1.75" above the bore center as best as I can measure.

Zero conditions
100 meters 90deg f, sea level, 30%rh, 30.15pres, LT mirage, light bright and in my face(shooting toward the east), little to no wind,time 1100. shoots plotted at bottom left of one inch square.

Shooting conditions
500 meters,80deg f, altitude 300ft 30%rh, pressure unknow,heavy mirage,light from right rear and mostly sunny, 3-5mph wind from 8 oclock,time 1400. Sierra called for 16.5 moa up from 100m zero. final 500 meter zero 15.25 moa up from 100m zero.

Ammo
crono 2500fps at 90deg f, 35%rh, 30.00pres, time 1300, 168 Sierra match king, IMI brass, 42.4g varget, winchester lr primers.

Thank you CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 01:41:18 (ZULU)

I have seen some references to magazine articles, but have not been able to find them.

Thanks guys.
Ken Goldberger <keg6@sprynet.com>
il, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 02:05:47 (ZULU)

Uh, yeah.

check out the new webpage at http://www.dlsports.com
Roy Hill <rhill@mickey.gc.whecn.edu>
Gillette, WY, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 02:13:38 (ZULU)

Bruce Evans

And yes the E-Mail address works feel free to use it
Bruce E <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 02:31:14 (ZULU)

I class the new calibre from Rem as the replacement for the .300WinMag,and not as a equal of the .338LapuaMag.
I had hoped when there was rumour's of a new big magnum calibre,that Remington would step up to the Real Large Magnum Calibre's, and they start at the.338LM size and go up,but to do this they would have had to design a much larger action,this would have freed them from the constraint's of the M-700 long action,with reguard's both the head size and the OAL of the cartridge.If they had done that it would have cost more,but they would have a real good gun and cartridge.They did not of course do that,they went the cheaper and easier route of forcing the new cartridge into the tight envelope of the M-700 Long action.And in so doing they had to rebate the case head from the body size of .543(based on the .404Jeff) down to the std belted mag size of .532 to make it fit the M-700 Long Action.I would have prefered a true rimless design(for reliable operation) rather than the rebated design they went with,and of course the .338LM is based on a .416 Rigby case with a headsize of around .588-.590 larger than the .300RUM,larger size equal's more fuel/powder etc,bigger is better baby!
Or step right up to a new round even bigger than the .338LM,the .408Cheyenne based on the .505 Gibb's which has a headsize of .6402 and generate's 8,438ft/lb's of energy at the muzzle compared with 5,019ft/lb's of the .338LM again at the muzzle.

RE:Cost of brass for the .338LM,as already stated on this site,the cost of Lapua brass is $2.00USD a case,however you can get Norma brass at $1.15USD a case,which is a good price from (sinclairintl.com).Also MAST are tooling up to produce the .338LM,as more player's get involved with the .338LM expect the availibilty to go up and the price of compotent's to come down.

F%$%$#@@ that was long,

Later Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 05:30:45 (ZULU)

On the .338 given that you would want to push a 250gr pill fast you would be placing a lot of pressure on the case. Would you really be comfortable using heavy grain loads on a rebated case? The case must lack suport somewhere and your mark 1 A1 computer is just behind where the action is (just trying to be punny). Your're a braver man than me Gunga-Din.

Mike,
I am checking my mail box every day.

Some borrowed Tasmanian hunting terms:

A mob of deer Two deer

He had massive antlers A spiker

A poor head,so I let him go. A clean miss

Running shot at 300yards Browsing on grass at 20yards

Best head I ever shot Only head ever shot

Best set of points I ever saw Met a female hiker

Regards to all
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 06:04:00 (ZULU)

Me again,don't get me wrong ,overall I like the idea of Big Green's new round,just wish they had made it in rimless rather than the rebated design.But that is the only gripe I have with it,but it is not a contender as far as the .338LM is concerned.I would take the 300RUM over the 300WinMag any day,Question's,Problem's.

And Darryl YES I am very familar with the 7 P's.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 08:18:10 (ZULU)

Ref. the Arnold arms 1000yds group size: A couple of years back I saw an 11year old girl shoot 5 6,5mms into one hole not much more than 8mm @100m, I was watching the target as she shot, just shaved a bit on each side each time. This was with iron sights, no scopes allowed. Out of 60 shots fired that day she had 60 10s (5cm dia) and 58 "inner10s" (2,5cm dia). @100m with a Krag Jorgensen rifle, 6,5x55.
Bottom line: Everything is possible, once in a while...

Krister

M98 <k.engvoll@norton.no>
Lillesand, Norway - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 09:04:15 (ZULU)

I have shoot and carried a Steyr AUG std(20"barrel) and the M-203PI version since 1987,and have found it to be a good weapon system,and have cleaned it more time's than I care to admit(like all good Infantry Soldier's).As far as standing up to abuse,I think they can handle a lot,seen them thrown onto the back of the hard deck of a Unimog truck as if they were bit's of fire wood.Not many weapon's with optic's could approach that degree of strength,none of the above were damaged,in 1987 saw a video on the Aussie rifle trial's.The std reference or control weapon for the trial was there current service rifle the L1A1(FN-FAL)SLR,the other candidate's were the Steyr AUG and the M-16A2.They did all the std type test's,mud,sand,saltwater emersion,rain and subzero stuff etc,etc you get the idea.
The only weapon to come out with the same test mark's for these extreme test's as the SLR(FN-FAL) was the Steyr AUG.When cocking handle's seized shut,the Digger's started out with a small hammer,this freed the AUG and it was business as usuall,on the M16A2 they just kept going up in hammer size's till the sledge and then decided to use there boot's to try to cock it,never did get it to cock.Under these condition's,the saltwater corrosin,stuffed the gas port's on all weapon's,this was after 2 day's,the AUG did not function as a SLR(self loading rifle)so they cocked it for each shot,and it fired every shot,the M-16 did not shoot at all as they could not cock the weapon.In subzero the AUG run like a dream,the M-16 did not the mag would not stay on the weapon.

P.S. I just wish I had a copy of this tape? Darryl maybe you could see if you can find a copy?

As far as fragile or all plastic,not even,the plastic exterior is to give an acceptable interface under all environment's(stop's your flesh sticking to exposed metal under subzero condition's).
The plastic hide's a vast amount of steel and alloy,as is evidenced by the heavy all up weight of 8.2 lb's for the std version,if it was all plastic it should weigh ahh around 2.8 lb's.

Stefan,
Re SA80,yes it is Shiitttee,it is so bad NO ONE,out side the Brit's use it,I have about 10-15 A4 page's on the fault's of the system,the main test the weapon failed repeatedly was the Sand test,failed in the 1st trial's.They ignored it until some one remembered so they resubmitted to a new round of sand test's,and when they could not get it to pass,they simiply forgot about it and ignored it,and adopted it.
During the Gulf War the SOP reguarding keeping the weapon operating for the longest time was,oil it up alot,then place it in to a large plastic bag and keep sealed until needed.When required,rip open bag,and set the selector to full auto(it is meant to be more reliable on auto,than on semi).Sound's like I am just making this up,if so I will give the reference,they also issued a plastic guard and a tube of glue,to stop the mag releasing prematurily(looked like the guard on the M-3A1 grease gun).

AUG RULES,

P.S.Darryl just grin and bare it Mate?
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 09:51:06 (ZULU)

Save up! Get a McMillan!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 12:32:20 (ZULU)

Seriously, what exactly is the beef? Surely it is not the elevation turret thing again? Guys, USE the FRIGGIN moa markings and forget what the ranges numbers say. It does not matter if the turret says 308Y (for yards) or 308M (for meters). Think a little. The MOA clicks are the same. Find out what your rifle uses for come ups and REMARK the upper part of the turret! This beats the hell out of having to write down "5 plus two" or what ever in your data book. Even if you get a turret that exactly matches your personal ballistic data (impossible)...it'll only do it under a certain set of conditions (elevation, temp, humidity). You STILL have to make entries like "5 plus X" for what ever varying conditions you record.

If there were other problems please email me. I'd like to hear about them. I missed about three months of threads and am interested in these scope issues.

CJ: If the MIRAGE was VERY bad, as you suggest, ANYTHING is possible when it comes to your 500 yard zero. For all you know you may not even have been aiming at the same point in the universe that the target was residing in! You could have been shooting high due to the image in your scope being misplaced by the mirage.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 13:02:29 (ZULU)

Scott,excellent quote:
'Pity the man who has never known something worth dying for'
Daniel(the British one) <awhiting@idirect.com>
somewhere, Canada - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 13:22:10 (ZULU)

al o. (Quasimoto)

Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
My Kinda City in , Ohio, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 13:58:40 (ZULU)

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 17:26:37 (ZULU)

Mark
What setup do you use?

Stefan
You out there?

Anyone?
Trying to decide on my new system:AT1-C24 (Armament Tec)
HTR (H.S precision)
M40A3 (Texas Brigade Arm)
Any views from people who have one or know anything about them?
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
missing England, Canada - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 19:01:50 (ZULU)

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Clarified and Rarified in Sunny, Ohio, USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 20:47:41 (ZULU)

My humble opinion.........based on no experience! Realizing that you should practice with what you use of course! On a normal mission(a mission that will require >800 yard shots, how many shots will you take? If we assume(making an ass out of me probably) that you will take less than 20 shots on a mission, can you not handle a little more recoil to get better ballistics? Other than burning out a barrel from hotter loads what becomes the problem?

I just read the above and it made no sense to me either. What I am trying to say is this. Once you find a load, get your data cooking, and sight in the rifle do you actually need to shoot hundreds more rounds through it and punish your shoulder to know that the rifle will shoot where you want it to? Would it not be just as good to do the get a rifle with better ballistics for missions and reserve the 308 for practice?

Shit does anyone follow my train of almost thought here?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 21:15:43 (ZULU)

.
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Thursday, July 15, 1999 at 23:35:33 (ZULU)

Did anyone watch Streets of Larado last night?? There was some mighty fancy rifle shooting going on. Can anyone identify the rifle used by the bad boy, Joey Garza?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 00:29:55 (ZULU)

Steve was right. After a little thought I realized 1 moa did not equall 5in at 500 meters. Duh! I crono my load again today 2540fps.
After doing my dope over this afternoon I am only 1/2moa off. As bad as the mirage was I think I am in the ball park now.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 00:57:22 (ZULU)

I can figure the average and such, but I became a cop so I wouldn't have to do a bunch of math. The equation that came with the unit for figuring SD made me loose a couple of childhood memories and part of my face went numb.

Please email as I can't check the Roster often enough.
Lance M. Johnston <sgtlmj@dmci.net>
battle creek, Michigan, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 02:02:24 (ZULU)

If I shoot 9 shots that have spread of 10 fps, and 1 shot that is 100 fps off, then the series is no good. The SD may look just great, but that one shot more than likely got tossed out of the group, or its trajectory surely will not follow the others at longer ranges (300 yds plus). So SD doesn't always tell the whole story.

If you are familiar with the Lotus spreadsheet program, I can tell you how to do the SD. Once upon a time it was THE spreadsheet program.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 03:13:52 (ZULU)

Have a chance to buy the bullet's for reloading,I know they are designed for Lapua's .308 subsonic load.But are they worth playing around with in reguard's to making my own subsonic reload's for a .308 rifle with a 1:11 twist barrel,thanks,

Comment's good ,bad,or shiittee?

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 03:46:27 (ZULU)

I also shot Jerry Rice's Nighthawk (NorCal Precision) It shot the 175 Federal round into the same size groups with no blast and no visible flash.

Both rifle look like when they are broke in to be very good firs sticks as JR calls them

UnDude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 04:18:35 (ZULU)

Christopher Brown <charlieb16@hotmail.com>
Ragley, LA, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 11:13:46 (ZULU)

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Getting Ready to go to the Range in the Northcoast Playland Known as , Ohio, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 12:22:29 (ZULU)

Torsten: Are you out there? Did you end up buying that G22 I mailed you about?

Westforce: Is that you back online? Man! I prepared something for you. It turns out you were taped when participating in a run with Airborne Rangers! Look here!

Have fun, y'all!

Stefan

L8er!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 12:53:47 (ZULU)

Let us know what the twist on the H-S is?

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 13:04:39 (ZULU)

Al & Mike
I have not played with the 175s much, only the Berger VLD and just lately a box of Black Hills 175s I picked up in Nebraska. The 175s didn't shoot to great around a .6 in a gun that shot .3s with 168s but I thought that it may be that I didn't have the right combo yet and it was my first few loads but it shot as well as the 168s if not better at 400 and 500 yards The 155 palma however out shot them all and that left me scratching my head(HA). I haven't played much with my 308 since I got the 260 but I did do some comparison shooting the other day and I tried the BH 175s against my 168 Varget load and the 175s from 300 to 600 was just as good and even better at 600 than the Varget loaded 168s. The 168s shot flatter by about 1.5 to 2 MOA but then I am pushing them at 2800 too. If your gun likes 168s and if you can push them to around 2800 they will still shoot MOA or better at 1000 yards. You should try the 175s at 400 on out to see how they do before you give up on them but them maybe you have if not you should try it. Just my thoughts.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 14:19:07 (ZULU)

B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 16:07:02 (ZULU)

THAT ISN'T DARRELL-DARRELL, ITS AL O. I'd recognize that voice anywhere! Damn I think I did break a rib laughing! You better stop hanging around Torsten, he's corrupting YOU!

Pat,

You beat me to the punch on 175 grainers. The envelope where they are supposed to shine is 700-1000 over the 168's right? Hell who cares, shoot what works in your piece.

Range banning of hollowpoints, DAMN! don't want to hurt that dirt too much ;-) THAT IS SCARY!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG LAUGHING CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 16:16:36 (ZULU)

Daniel, the rifle is fantastic with 168's and lets face it that is what it was intended to shoot. The 175's I have from Federal are way hot (2700 fps) and only a box of that shot. I have always shot 168 or 155 before. I may just use 168's. I would not hesitate to say go for it with H.S., but also talk to Jerry Rice at NorCal. His prices are similar. Both make excellent equipment. If you want a stock that drops right in and is easy to adjust the HS Vertical Grip is the easiest to adjust I have seen. McMillan makes great stocks and seem to be the most likely to stand up to a bomb blast. NorCal uses McMillan Stocks and KxP bbls.

Groups with 168's in the HS are 1/4 to 1/2 and the weapon is not truly broken in yet.

Mike/Undude
MikeM <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 16:23:35 (ZULU)

Ende

T
Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 16:47:31 (ZULU)

seanc <casler@concorde.com>
boston, ma, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 20:24:29 (ZULU)

WoW, you got the field wide open. How bout throwing in the McMillan 50 BMG for good measure?
Just kidding. You don’t seem to be real hung up on super high accuracy or “sniper crap”
So hears my recommendation.
Buy a Tompson Center Encore. You can get one for about $350.00 in .308 win and when you feel like spending a little money buy a extra barrel for about $275.00. The extra barrels come in .223, 45/70 and a whole bunch of other calibers. The Accuracy of my Encore with the .308 win barrel is about 1” at 100 yds with match ammo. It is the perfect tool for the man who wants everything (does not know what he wants) and it is also politically inert.
Don’t sell the Scout short, it is more “tactical” than many of these 16 lb. Monstrosities people haul around they call tactical.

All, Keep your powder and your pants dry.
Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, TX, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 20:58:08 (ZULU)

Does an iron sight mounted on the muzzle degrade the site picture through a scope to the degree that it would not be recommended.

Thanks
Tom <tmathein@yahoo.com>
LA, CA, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 21:26:03 (ZULU)

Is the standard breakin procedure OK for Colt AR match barrels?

Is it OK to clean from the muzzle with a good muzzle protector during the breakin, rather than field stripping?

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 21:38:39 (ZULU)

Breaking in the barrel for an AR-15 should be the same, unless a chrome lining makes a difference (I'd have to defer to someone else on match quality barrels here).

As far as cleaning from the muzzle: with an issue M-16A2 we did it all the time (though you probably shouldn't). If you're going to use it as a match rifle, I wouldn't though. You don't have to field strip it to clean it from the breach. If you pop the rear pin loose and leave the front pivot pin closed, you can "fold" the rifle in half. Pull back on the charging handle just enough to get the gas carrier key to clear and get the bolt carrier out of the chamber, then stick the bolt carrier in your shirt pocket. Voila, you can clean it from the breach w/o fully field-stripping it, just by pulling out the carrier.

Tom:

I wouldn't think that a front blade would be noticable on a bolt gun. If you're talking about an AR-15 front sight, though, that'd be a different story.

Seanc:

I have to apologize for chuckling, but you made me laugh since you bought a Steyr Scout and are talking about saving money... Seriously, I understand about budget choices, yet wanting to get something you'll be happy with.

If you really want to save money, get the Savage... I just got one, and aside from the stock and trigger, it's a darn sharp gun. My druthers would be for the Remington 700, though. If you're serious about the African safari, neither will really do in those calibers, you would want something with more a lot more punch, even if you give a little on the tack-driving accuracy.

As far as caliber selection, you have a choice if you go with the Savage: use the same caliber as your Scout (.308), or diversify you ability to shoot different calibers. Your call, there.

L8R,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Vols, TN, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 22:26:00 (ZULU)

P.S I do enjoy shooting!
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
Canada - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 22:33:31 (ZULU)

Looks like we got flamed by another brainless . . . whoa, let's not go there. Anyway, another typical bunch of drivel from someone who apparently cannot discuss things reasonably. Probably the usual "Don't confuse me with the facts, my's minds made up!!" Oh well, I guess we have to accept these folks too if we want to keep our freedoms. Gets a little hard at times, though.

Remember, the Second Amendment is the protection of the Constitution and all other Amendments.

I'm gone.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 22:35:53 (ZULU)

I have a Bushmaster XM15E2S flattop that I mounted a Delta Elite 3x9x40 armored on using an ARMS #5 Multibase and the rings supplied with the scope. I have yet to see the standard front sight that I have on this weapon. I kept the standard front since I also have the detachable carry handle with A2 sights for when I need the irons. I picked up a Trijicon ACOG Reflex for it also and it works just fine with the front sight. No problems for me as yet.

YMMD.

I'm gone. (Again)

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, CA, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 22:49:04 (ZULU)

I started out with a Savage 110FP in .308 caliber. I replaced the stock with Choate's "Ultimate Sniper" stock. I didn't really prefer this stock, but it was the only after market synthetic stock I could locate that had an aluminum bedding block. I have had a local gun smith do a 5 groove fluting job & had the stock floated & bedded. I have, also, had the barrel harmonically and cryogenically treated by 300 Below. I have a Timney trigger on order, but I won't have it for a couple of months.

Well, that's it. Can someone with a little experiece offer any suggestions?

Thanks,
K Caulder
Patriot11b@aol.com
K. Caulder <Patriot11b@aol.com>
Odessa, Texas, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 22:51:31 (ZULU)

I'm asking !!!!!!!!!!!

With all deference to me, the damn books that came with the pieces don't tell one way or the other.

The im-bare-assed Bolt slips away.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 23:31:03 (ZULU)

Just $0.02 worth (or less!) from Missouri.

Paul S <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia,, MO, USA - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 23:40:48 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 00:01:49 (ZULU)

Just for information...There is going to be a basic Long Range Precision Rifle course(Sniper) August 19-22, 1999 at Grandfield Ok. Students will be engaging targets from 50 to 1000 yrds. This will be a very good and challenging school.

Instructor will be SFC Steve SUTTLES, former Marine Corp Sniper, and holder of one of the longest kills in Vietnam with a rifle(1250). SUTTLES is a world class shooter and excellent instructor.SUTTLES also teaches at the National Guard Scout Sniper school in Little Rock AR., and just currently finished teaching the first sniper school for the Oklahoma Army National Guard. Cost of this course is $200 and the students will be given a top of the line Data book for their rifle.

For further information, email me.Applications must be in NLT 10 Aug 99. This class is open to Civilian, Military and Law Enforcement, and back ground checks will be done.
Bobby Whittington <WHATACOP@AOL.COM>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 00:19:07 (ZULU)

Hung my new "Looky Loop Hole" LR M3 on my 700 VS .308 yesterday and after I figured that you had to remove the elevation cap to zero the bloody thing, everything went fine. I thiught something was screwy when it shot 16" high at 100 yards with it cranked all the way down(or is it up?)The ninth thru thirteenth rounds did about 1 moa @ 100 yards. I've used so many patches in the last few days, I feel like I've been cheating my customers when I've cleaned their rifles. Time to hit the big city of Owensville(Population 3300!) for a little Friday night whoopee!!

The Doctor(It's Only a nickname) is out!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 00:36:42 (ZULU)

Hey Pat, sorry to miss out on that cold beer, boy it was a hot SOB out on the prairie, eh!! One of these days, I promise, I'll get to your part of the country and we'll have to tip a few!! Hey, just saw the orders for the SDHP HTR's, oh my oh my. Criminals beware, the South Dakota HP's are pickin up some mean hardware, lemme tell ya, heheh!!

MikeM,

1/4 to 1/2 MOA with 168's @ 2700fps, not too bad. What were the Chrony's on the target that came with the gun?? Hell, I can't remember. 175's, hoo, they should shoot out of a 12 twist barrel, but they are on the high end of the spectrum on that twist, so there is a chance that some loads may stabilize better than others. I'd probably try to slow 'em down to 2600-2700, but you'd probably get a better idea of how they are shooting after 600 yds anyway. That's what I hear anyway.

How is that barrel doing as far as fouling??

Guys:

It's probably been mentioned before, but if ya wanna see a prelim test of an H-S HTR, go to Mel's Sniper Page

Well peoples, gotta head out, take it easy

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 01:16:14 (ZULU)

I'm new to this group and I have two technical questions about a Remington 700PSS. I have read, here and elswhere, that they have excessive distance from the tip of the bullet (when loaded to commercial OAL) and the beginning of the rifling in the barrel.

(1) Is this _exactly_ what is called freebore?

700PSS rumored to have between .010 and .030 clearance (supposedly to avoid overpressure if bullet seated too far out). One person set his barrel to .000" then backed off to .002".

(2) What is the optimum clearance, for a given OAL, to maximize accuracy?
(3) Just how careful to I have to be to not exceed the given OAL?
Glen <glen@lumisys.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 01:53:21 (ZULU)

I go eat dinner and come back, and find a bleeped-out block under my post and several retorts to it.... guess I missed what it was.

Did they say anything worth repeating, or just a bunch of foul-mouthed jabs at us?

Think, we're defending the right for them to do that. Ironic, eh? Why can't they take a moment to think about that... oh well......

L8R,
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 01:57:20 (ZULU)

Carlos, I love ya big guy and miss you very much. We will meet again one day...keep that rifle at port arms and await my arrival and I will be glad to take over for your watch!

Semper Fi, Don
Don Maurer <marine1@raex.com>
Canal Fulton, Ohio, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 01:58:15 (ZULU)

If you want to shoot long range, why not start by buying an M3 scope and sticking it on the Steyr? Probably won't stay supersonic to 1000, but it ought to be fun and the guys on the Scout list would probably be interested in how it works. When you eventually get a longrifle you'll need the scope anyway.
Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 02:55:31 (ZULU)

In the Marine Corps as an infantryman you have to qualify yearly. I believe there is/was some such requirement that you have scored expert for the two consecutive years prior to your attendance of sniper school... at least that was the BS that was fed to us. I should defer that question to Gooch, he should know better than I.

No, you don't HAVE to qualify as expert while in boot camp. I can say, however, that quite often your qualification at PI is your best... you have a full week of intense snapping in, then a week of range time leading up to your actual firing for record. You're focused, not distracted there. I qualified expert while I was there; I can honestly say that was my best firing for record. After that, I was usually having to qualify on a B-mod course instead of the normal KD course.... the B-mod course bites, and Bites Hard. They take away the 500 yard line, and add in extra off-hand rounds.

However, that's moot, because I believe they have changed the way they qualify now, so the point system is different than it used to be, and the ranges are conducted a little differently than they used to be.

Does that help?

Question to all:

No such critter as Mark 4 bases for Savage 110s. Which bases would be preferred by the public at large, and which bases are to be avoided at all costs?

L8R,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Knoxville , TN, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 02:59:54 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 04:21:43 (ZULU)

Caulder, re the "poor mans'sniper" project, with the money you have spent on fluting that barrel, bedding and floating the Choate stock (which does not require, nor probably benefit from, that technique), and freezing the barrel (again questionable benefit), and another trigger at some point, I suggest you consider this: $350 Savage, $150 Choate stock, $?? for fluting and bed/float, $50 + cryo, and $75 for Timney trigger (or you might be better off getting the Sharp Shooter Supply model from Midway for $76), you are into that outfit for $750 or more, is my guess. A Remington 700VS costs $489 (dealer) or say $575 in the real world. You can adjust their excellent trigger to perfection, it comes with an H-S Precision stock (which to the torque question guy should be cranked to 65 INCH lbs.), and you are in business from the get-go. Or you could opt for the 700VSSF (stainless fluted model) with a dealer price of $590, and a real world price of $660 or so. That Choate stock weighs a ton (okay, 6 lbs.). The H-S stock about 2 lbs. Just something to think about for next time.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 04:25:59 (ZULU)

Remington are now offering the .300UltraMag. with a composite barrel.
According to Guns Australia magazine this barrel is light-weight stainless steel surrounded by epoxy hardened graphite fibre.

Any bets on how long this will remain in production?

Erma:

The German Erma company (who produced MP38/40 smg) has a new sniper rifle which was adopted in .338 Lapua by the GSG9 border police.
It looks like it borrowed the Accuracy International stock, the SIG idea of a barrel strip to reduce glare and they're the good bits.

Its only claim to fame is that it can change calibres between 308,300WIN MAG and 338Lapua Mag without gunsmithing tools. The test writer stated that the muzzle brake forced the sound painfully over the shooters head. I think that about does it for this new offering.
Next the sports report...

Jargon by Army Reservists:

I thought I would sleep out.......... ........Lost

I stalked to within metres of the enemy.......Didn't see them

The hill took hours to climb.................Fat and unfit

A natural sense of direction.................Followed the river

A snap shot.................................Unauthorized Discharge

....................................................................

dt <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 06:47:30 (ZULU)

As an aside.

Colt bolts have MPC etched into them.
The Colt bolt carriers always have a C on the left side.

Here are two decent spots to get answers to most questions. The first is a heavy used email list. Of course one has to suscribe.

http://www.ar15.com/

This one is a forum type page. It is very good too.
Here one can read all he wants, but must register to post I believe.

http://www.ar15.com/ubb/cgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 09:53:39 (ZULU)

Anyway . . . . has anyone had any experience with the new Accuracy International AICS stockk available for a Rem 700 short action. It looks like virtually the same stock they use for their Accuracy International rifle (hubba-hubba - expensive stuff, but neat lookin')I inquired about the cost and it is right around the $650.00 mark. Im still trying to justify it to my Sweetie that I really need one of these new toys. (Ive almost got her convinced.) Has anyone played around with this new stock and in you opinions are they worth the bucks. I love my McMillans (whenever I get them in.) but an willing to try something new and different.

al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Inquisitive About new Stocks in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 11:39:09 (ZULU)

One is a Colt Match Target Competition HBAR. The Colt site says it has a 1 in 9 twist. Will assume that it is not chrome lined and will clean with standard breaking procedure.

The other is a Colt Match Target Tactical Elite. Has a bull barrel. The Colt site does not list this specific model. It does list the Match Target with a 1 in 7 twist. I will assume it is chrome lined and not breakin. Just clean after every 5 shot groups? The serial number on this one is 779 and I understand that there were only 1000 made. It has a Houge round foreend and a benchrest buttstock.

Even with my glasses on it looks like both barrels and chambers are the same color.

I guess this also means that the same ammo will probably not shoot the same in both guns with different twists.

Damn, time to sell it all and go back to a cotten picking bb gun.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 12:11:14 (ZULU)

Just looked. The Match Target Competition HBAR has CMP 1/9 on the barrel. This means chrome, 1 in 9 twist.....

The Tactical Elite has MP, 1/8 Bull BBL. This means not chrome lined with a 1 in 8 twist? This must be a custom shope gun because Colt does not list a 1/8 twist for any of it's barrels.

Time to burn some 223's for the first time in the Bolt's life. Look out people beside of me LOL.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 12:18:41 (ZULU)

In checking barrels last night, I found a post-ban barrel marked CMP that was NOT chrome lined. Don't know if it was marked improperly, but you can trust the method I gave you off-list to determine whether the barrel is lined or not.

Like Bill R. says, these barrels can shoot pretty well, or be a real dog, but chances of getting a "barn burner" are slim to none.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
HUMID - SE, IL, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 13:04:39 (ZULU)

So here is my personal response: Citizen: Some morning around 0430 when you're rolling over in your rack and scratching yourself while dreaming of a sweet babe, I'll be awake, tired, uncomfortable, and thiking about you while I'm protecting your right to irresponsibly blast people- but same goes for the guns wackos, litters and flag burners out there-you and your kind don't deserve me. You have proven that YOU are no better than the exact persons that you attack. I will never allow myself to sink to your level. Semper Fi American.

Original post included below for reference....

>FUCK YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>YOU ALL GO OUT AND ENJOY KILLING CHILDREN!!!!!!!
>
>GUNS ARE FOR SAD PSHCOTIC PATETIC IDIOTS!!!!!!!
>
>I HOPE WE CAN BAN ALL GUNS!!!!!!
>
>UP YOUS@!!!!!!!!!!!
>FUCK YOU ALL PSHCO"S 
>YOU ARE ALL, MENTLE, AND ENJOY SHOOTING. - Friday, July 16, 1999 at 22:28:04 (ZULU)

Major Kim Hunter, USMC <impactarea@snipercountry.com>
Quantico, VA, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 13:28:33 (ZULU)

So . . . any info on the AWC AICS stock anyone?????

al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Tactical Elite City in , Ohio, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 15:05:33 (ZULU)

Erma and Arnold Arms appear to be competing for the most unsubstantiated adverstising claims.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 15:11:25 (ZULU)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 15:44:39 (ZULU)

Have you checked the torquing on stock bolts?

I had same dilemna, loosened, then re-torqued stock bolts to 65 inch pounds and it went away. I went 30 inch pounds on both, the 45 inch pounds, then to 65 inch pounds final.

Flexing of mag well sheet metal?

Other?

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 16:17:38 (ZULU)

Got to shoot some really neet full auto's yesterday that include a CAR-15, H&K 53, MP5 SD, and the brand new H&K G36.I'm going back today for another fun day of full auto mayhem and destruction!

More than just a few vehicles are going to be blown apart bit by bit.Tonight,a full auto tracer display is going to light up the night sky.I'm going to take all kinds of pictures.

Oh well, got to go.Were just getting ready to go back on the road again.

All the Best,
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 16:49:16 (ZULU)

For 30 mm rings, go to your nearest construction site and ask the electricians where their conduit "bone pile" is. Ask nicely if you can take a foot or so of 1" EMT. The outside diameter is scarily close to 30 mm. Stop at a hard ware store or garage and buy
or beg a dollop of valve grinding compound. If you can mount a scope, you should be able to figure out the rest. After lapping, Be sure you clean up well. The rifle, mounts, etc..., or you might lap your bore unintentionally.

For 1" rings, try 3/4 EMT or 1/2 Rigid. They are both very close.

Does spell check not work for expletives and vitriolic spews ?

For the record, I anxiously await news of Leslie's foray into the
world of .308.
God, I hope no one tells him about Berger bullets. He'll
never be able to spring for a Remington.

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
Poortland, Ore., USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 18:30:37 (ZULU)

Question 1. Are you a WM?

If the answer to question 1 is yes go to question 2. If no, then disregard question 1.

Question 2. Are you the former wife of Tim Hunter?

Question 3. If yes to all of the above don't you remember me?

Kent Gooch
CWO2 USMC (ret)
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 19:43:36 (ZULU)

Early this year Colt discontinued the chrome lined barrels. This probably applies only to the civilian, and not military rifles. I would hope that their identity markings would be different.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 19:51:41 (ZULU)

jake <maryld@1st.net>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 20:42:13 (ZULU)

Will now be looking for your favorite hunting loads for the following:
223 from the Colts
270 Sedero
7mm mag Sendero
7mm08 Model 7
444 Marlin
44mag Redhowk
357 Model 19
300mag Sendero
and favorite tactical loads for the following:
223
308 PSS
7mm mag
300mag
If anyone has some time or can lead me in the right direction on the above it sure would save the rookie (definite reloading rookie) some time. It appears that there are so many reloading manuals out there that I'm going to spend all my time reading instead of reloading!!!!

Tomorrow, going to practice field stripping the Colts so I won't look like a total dummy at the range next week, fumbling around and such. Got to figure out where they need lubricating and what to use. I really want to thank everyone on the quick posts on the Colts. Taking the assemblage of advice, I'm going to treat both of them like they are standard barrels and breakin accordingly.

Al O, I had already put the Badgers and one of them thar Leepeoholds 4.5-14x4 tactical with mildots on it. May not shoot worth a damn but it really looks sexy.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 22:00:20 (ZULU)

Jim Liles <youngestliles@hotmail.com>
P-land, Ore., USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 23:13:46 (ZULU)

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 23:35:52 (ZULU)

Double checking the ammo, it may be that several lots were mixed during last class in same box. Helpful students. I measure after Jerry Rice noticed a difference, and found they are not the same in OAL after being fired. So I will go out Thursday with fresh ammo and go for it with fresh ammo.

JR you did great I will shoot 168's till the cows come home. You chrono was about the same. I got 2700 in 70 degree weather.

Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 23:36:26 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 17, 1999 at 23:39:45 (ZULU)

No one has offered their clapped-out SKS yet for my continuing underwater experiments... c'mon, somebody's got one... I'll trade you something shiny for it....
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 01:17:16 (ZULU)

Larry,
Bill W. can also authoritatively comment on twist rates for long range work.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 03:04:27 (ZULU)

everybody,
It's an honor to be online with America's finest.
I was also wondering if anybody has had any dealings with the new .300 rem ultramag and if so how was it?

GOD bless all those defending our country and our rights
Christopher B. <charlieb16@hotmail.com>
Ragley, La., USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 03:23:40 (ZULU)

Most, not all, but a lot of tactical rifles are based on the Rem. 700 action. I bought my Rem. 700 rifle at a pawn shop because it was the 1st short action left-handed model I could find. I had a complete custom varmint rifle built around that action from the ground up. The design is 100% tactical because the design and function met my requirements as a long distance varmint hunter. The barrel work, truing of the action and bolt were done by a gunsmith using CNC controlled equipment. McMillan A3 aluminum pillar bedded stock, Hart stainless steel barrel, jewell trigger, leupold 14x35 (after Premier Reticle boosted the power) mil-dot scope (Mil-dot scope was a requirement when I attended SMTC long range shooting class last Oct.) Gun will shoot .3’s and .4’s and mid .2’s on those perfect days. Total cost around $2500.00 bucks w/ glass.

I see a lot of rifles being offered by Chandler, Texas Brigade, Andrew Webber and many other fine gunsmiths. My shooting partners was built by Mike Lau and uses the same components as my rifle and shoots just as well. The quality of both my rifle and my buddies is superb and flawless. What I’m finally getting to is, why is there such a wide price range for these type rifles using the same or comparable components and equipment. I just can’t see how some can cost $1.5, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6K I know some of the higher end ones include the glass, but what more can be done to those rifles to put them up in those price ranges.

I welcome any thoughts, opinions or insights into this. I am also not trying to stir the pot on this and get everyone all worked up.

Jeff <harmonj@ttc.com>
McKinney, TX, USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 04:10:17 (ZULU)

Hi mate,the 1st AUG I shoot was an Austrian made gun,the NZArmy wanted the guns ASAP, the Aussie Lithgow factory could not supply soon enough.So the 1st 4,000 guns came from Austria,so the people who needed them the most had them,Infantry,1987.The rest of the order (14,000) was supplyed at a later date from the new Steyr line at Lithgow Ausrtalia.When I talk of the AUG in NZ Service it is from first hand experience and knowedge,not from some PR guy or the news paper or from some Army or Ex-Army guy who knows nothing of the weapon system(read pogue,remf,cook,bottle washer etc,etc you get the idea).Now some people may have got the opinion I donot like the M-16 series,they would be wrong,I find it a good weapon(keep it clean,the Israeli's call it the gun that needs to be shaved,refering to the cut down shaving brush they use to clean the weapon,and that it like's to be clean).I have no problem using the M-16 serie's or the AUG,horse's for course's,both have good point's and bad one's.I have no problem with the Aussie made AUG's the NZArmy use's,I have only used the Aussie Issue AUG's once in 1996,for 2 week's.There version is slightly different,trigger mech and the reticle,didnt like there change's.If the weapon is so shhiittteee,would you like to stand in front of mine at 500m,can I strongly suggest not to do this as it could be hazadous to your health???(thats a joke).
I can tell you I am getting a bit anti-Minimi(C-9),the number of time's I have had to fix jam's of my gunner's with my boot is getting
out of hand.

RE Lapua B416 .308 200gr subsonic projectile,

No typo,Number is correct,you will probablily not find it in the latest Lapua catalog's,but if you have a older one,in the '80's you will see it is the bullet used in the manufacture of subsonic ammo.It is still being made ,but is usually no longer listed in there catalog's.
I have some Lapua 170gr lockbase I have yet to load,and will get some 185gr Scenar's as they sound good,so far I have only used 175gr MK Sierra's and get 1/2moa.

Actually just got back from taking members of my Regiment thru LFTT,Live Fire Training Tests,simiply a series of induced stoppages,where they have to apply the right IA to fix the fault,(Imediate Action)mag change,gas stoppage's etc.Stefan,you would have felt right at home as the range is a HK design,like many in Europe,300m automated type,it's the only one like it in NZ,it's in the Linton Camp(Palmerston North)and it's called the Pearson's Range.
But before you get too excited,it was not finished,ran out of money and Army did not buy and have installed the Automated Targets.People work the Butt's not electrics.

Sorry,feel routed,,

Later Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 08:19:27 (ZULU)

The same reason that any other product has a wide range of prices. Some of it is technical quality, some of it is "Name" or aura, some of it is statis. I recently sold a popular "sniper" rifle for far more than it was worth, to someone that had to have a real "Sniper rifle"!
And there are very fine rifles that are cheaper than "name" guns... just like wines...

The science of making very accurate rifles has no secrets... good parts, careful, knowing labor, and proper layout and design. This puts a good .308 rifle (good being less than .5" all the time, often .25") in the $2000 dollar class. Also remember that many of these guns are built by hand, one at a time, because the demand is so small.
If any of the better builders had an order for 1000 M40A2's, or some other design, they would get 1050 barrels, 1050 actions, 1050 etc. They could spend the time setting up a machine to face actions, and do a 1000 in 3 days, instead of setting up the machines each time, for each one... yada yada yada. But to make 2 or 3 gets expensive.

And of course, once you have a "Name" and people must have their gun built by "Big Eddy", then the price (and waiting time) goes up.
Think of the cost of a Honda Civic, if made 3 at a time.

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 11:48:45 (ZULU)

Who's Big Eddy? Whats his turnaround?, and does he prefer Remington or Sav'age rifles? ;-)

Have a great weekend folks!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 15:53:54 (ZULU)

Says his costumers have many groups of less than 2" at 1400 meters, and because of that reputation, there is a twelve year wait!!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 16:39:04 (ZULU)

You said Ruu! Ruuug! and you KNOW what THAT does to me!

Darn,

And I had this old military surplus BRNO made German SS41 that I wanted fitted with a custom .338 Lapua barrel and a Choate Ultimate Sniper stock!

Oh well back to the salt mines!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 17:44:17 (ZULU)

Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
MT., USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 17:46:03 (ZULU)

If your first shot is the one that counts the most, shouldn't you practice such that every shot is a cold bore shot? Which means that you would have to complete your end of day cleaning ritual before each schot and shot with an ambient temperature barrel.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Al O., found something that you can give up them sheep for! A buddy sent me a link to a site called ampland.com. It's totally disgusting.

Well practiced field stripping the Ar's all day. Next is the full strip down. Another shooter indicated that I need to be extremely careful with the Elite cause of it's match grade status. Are there any reasonably priced upgrades for these two? The trigger on the Match HBAR feels heavier than the Elite.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 21:07:05 (ZULU)

Brookfield is the mount you want. Go to the links section. look up fulton armory. They can get it for you. Plan on an 800 yard range. you bullet will be going subsonic after that in an M1A. You will have a very nice weapon indead. You can lay down fire and snipe. you will not need that shaving brush like ar10 and sr25 boys. You can fill it with sand and salt water and it will still work.

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 21:22:43 (ZULU)

.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Sunday, July 18, 1999 at 23:55:15 (ZULU)

Sort your own shite out,I get the impression you have never fired the rifle,the talk you give appears second hand,if not post your experience with the rifle.I will admit only to being tired when I made the last post,when some of the guy's had their SLR's replaced with M-16's they complained that the weapon wasn't as good as there old SLR and when their M-16 was replaced with the AUG they had the same reaction.Soldier's like other's do not like change and some time's resist learning new thing's and usually prefer the old thing's that they are more familar with.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 01:21:50 (ZULU)

I spoke with my father this afternoon. He received his 12X Gold Ring scope back from Leupold this week, after having it checked out. It seems he managed to drop it (& his rifle) off a shooting bench in a moment of spurrious clumsiness. Visible damage was done, based on marks that appeared on the objective bell.

He sent it to the good folks at Leupold with a request that they 'check it out' for any internal damage and 'please do what is needed'. Surely, it had to have suffered some terrible effects from the fall onto concrete!

When he received the package this week, he opened it to find an explanataion of services: Replaced eyepiece with new, improved model; Replaced objective lock ring; Re-columnated lenses; Returned to owner.

The cost? ZERO!!! Is that class or what? I would have believed that I could list all of the businesses that would render such a service on the toes of one hand! But not these guys! This is the stuff of LEGENDARY SERVICE!

So, gang, as you contemplate your next optics purchase, let me add to your 'pros' list for Leupold. These are the scopes built for serious shooters!

Oh, and did I mention? This scope was purchased in 1966!!!!!!!!!!

Semper Fi!

Roger
Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Sweltering Heat, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 03:57:19 (ZULU)

All posts on the Austeyr are verifiable via Australian DoD Army-publications and the mainstream press where events have been reported. No secret esoteric knowledge just events that occured.

Did they happen to me or in my view? No. My feeling is that this would not have comforted the diggers in the US to show off the new gear when a high percentage failed. Same for the other cases posted.

If I had cause to doubt the veracity and the integrity of my colleagues I would not post the information. Just because information is not 1st hand does not negate its value.

In 1990 I was in a war zone and told how a previous French element was attacked and received a fatality. The young indigenous villager could have said nothing, but the fact that he did equipped me to make a more informed decision. The villager was not involved in the rocket attack that claimed the Frenchman,ie second hand information.

If you require more details you can email me direct or phone me, I believe you have my number. Are we quite finished or should we continue to play "my dick is bigger than yours" because our views do not coincide?

.
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
Deep South - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 04:35:20 (ZULU)

On page 47 of the 1999 Leupold catalog, under the FAQ column, question 3 is: "Can the scope finish be changed?"

The reply says: "No, because it would not be practical. Stripping the old finish could alter maintube dimensions, which could threaten the waterproof seals."

Of course, since it's a SNIPER rifle, you're going to paint the whole thing to camouflage it, I suppose you don't HAVE to start with matte; but I'd not start with the silver, at least. Gloss would be bad enough, but you can paint it to loose the shine.

L8R,
Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 05:55:46 (ZULU)

Daniel: What's up? You live in Surrey? Darn, that's got to be close to the shooting Walhalla in the UK! Never been at Bisley, but sure would like to go there and shoot someday. That's like holy ground! I guess it's like Camp Perry for these American people that frequent this site. When I lived in the UK, I was in Nottingham and there wasn't a lot of good shooting to be done over there.

Jim H.: Long time no speak, buddy! Did that lovely wife of yours allow you to buy ANOTHER rifle? I thought you still had that Rem700 on order? Didn't know you was so loaded.... Are you still going to Kosovo? If so, let me know and I'll tell you where to find my buddy who's already getting a sun-tan over there. Say Hi to your family for me, will ya!

L8er!

Stefan

PS. Chris & Darryl: Give it up guys. My dick's bigger....
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace in, sheep infested (oops, there I go again) The Netherlands - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 09:56:36 (ZULU)

No Kosovo is on indefinant hold. Everything pretty much is at the moment, all new command structure, etc.

To drag this laborously back onto tactical shooting, I liked the bipod on your rifle so much I went and got myself a Gibbs Saturday. (pretty much the same as a Versi pod). I read the sugested modifications from "In Review" and have a better way to install a tensioning screw to it. Instead of threading the screw directly into the soft aluminum, install a helicoil. That is one of those steel inserts to re-thread a stripped out hole. That way all the wear and tear of loosening and tightening will be on the steel insert and not the cheap aluminum.

PS: I don't know if I mentioned it or not, but my younger son (the one who, during breakfast, gave you the step by step directions to his school "in case you need to go there") says he's glad you didn't have to go to Kosovo. Wife says hi & still can't get over how tall you are.

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 11:38:39 (ZULU)

Tony
I bought my 'Ultimate Sniper' for around 35pounds which is the equivelent to $56 which is a rip off but is the only decent reading material I can get imported back home.

Chris,Darryl & Stefan:I have the biggest dick,it's a real shooter,I can group em all in an inch at 1000+ yards but I do Handloading,I've got a real hot load I chrono'd it at 3000fps.
Daniel.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
Canada - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 11:48:39 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 11:57:25 (ZULU)

See ya then!

Bill Rogers,
On Snakeskins:

I caught two big fat copperheads today, I tried wrapping the first one round the barrel, duck taping the tail to the barrel, and it done got more than a little upset!

Well, I then tried mounting the second one so the mouth was at the muzzle (Al O's directions) and it was P$%SSED!

Question, How do you keep the snakeskins from stinkin from the heat?

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 12:47:56 (ZULU)

seanc <casler@concorde.com>
USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 13:55:08 (ZULU)

The African Buffalo (which is a REAL buffalo), is a real mean bitch, and practically bullet proof. Even a large male lion will not take on an African Buff.

You will be very "undergunned" with a .375 H&H, and be wishing you had at least a .416, or larger... maybe a 50MG. And when the African Buff is wounded, they don't mill around waiting to die... they get revenge on the stupid little white boy with the little gun... and the yellow puddle at his feet.

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 14:33:26 (ZULU)

As far as consideration of the 223. Here is what I was considering thinking... I have an M1a (plain Jane, will send out to get Beefed up at some point). I also receive my Steyr Scout tomorrow (can't wait!).
I have a few goodies for "up close" like mp5 and '51, and a couple of "interesting" shotguns usas12 and stakeout. So it is pretty much try to get what you can while you still can. Most dealers and distrinbutors will not ship anything to this state including bolt actions.... For those of you outside mass, I'm sure a lot of this will start creeping towrads and into your states too so pay attention to what happens here and in Kalifornia!!

The deal is I live in Mass. the laws here are getting SO BAD you would not even believe it! ALL SHOTGUNS are being reclassified as "riot guns" (yes, even over and unders).. so you can see where things are going..

So should I diversify into calibers OTHER than 308 (ie 223) or should I stay w/ one caliber??
seanc <casler@concorde.com>
boston, ma, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 18:01:57 (ZULU)

Please inform me.

For me and my country it's to late but is there nothing you can do against what your government is doing.I hope you guy's dont have to do what we had to do.

Good luck.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
Canada - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 18:57:22 (ZULU)

How is your sight picture, Mirage? Does the target seem to "float" for second shot string?

Next check the barrel channel by running a dollar bill between the barrel and forearm. Does it bind anywhere in channel?

Next remove barreled action from stock and look of any irregularities in the fit in between the receiver/bedding block, and recoil lug slots.

Oh by the way, how fast is the "quick shots"?

Chao!

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY , bY-gAwD, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 19:31:45 (ZULU)

A 8 lb .300WM rifle will generate about 27 ft. lbs. of recoil, 15-17 ft lbs is considered about the max for "average" military dudes.

A heavier rifle w/scope and a decent brake will reduce this considerably. I shot a .300 WBY mag with the OEM brake in 1992-93 and the recoil from the bench (fifty rounds)did not seem any worse than a comparable .30'06, but the muzzle blast and flash was horrendous.

A comfortable shooting position, good recoil pad, and if needed a PAST type pad will go a long way towards taming a .300

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 20:09:30 (ZULU)

And after all that BULLSHIT!!They restrict the amount of ammo that I can buy and I have to specify which rifle I want to buy and which caliber it is chambered for,if I want another rifle I have to prove why I NEED it and then pay more.Then I'm restricted on where and when I can use it,if the rifle is stolen my licience is revoked and I face possible legal action from the police.

What really PISSES ME OFF!! Is that if the cop who is dealing with your application does'nt LIKE you for ANY reason he can refuse your application and you have to still pay for it ALL!!

Of coarse there is very little choise on guns as everything is taxed big time.

SO FAR they have banned:ALL pistols
ALL fully or even semi automatic firearms
Shotguns that hold more than 3 shells
Airguns with 12+ft lbs power
Laser sights
I'm am seriously considering moving to over where you guys are,I sometimes feel like KO'ing my liciencing policeman.

Anyone suggest any nice places where there is a big pro shooting community where there are a lot of shooters around?Any advice?

Anyway back to the real world,the most I can do to counter the anti's short of taking them all out(which is what they expect) is join the NRA and try to spread the truth that we are all not nutters(well most) but merely average guys who find self satisfaction in an art form known as shooting.

By the way the reason all these restrictions came about was because a few head cases lost the plot(in alot of cases the police made mistakes when liciencing them) and thought it would be fun to shoot a few kid's.

Daniel.

Appreciate what you have!
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
Canada - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 21:26:57 (ZULU)

In our last episode, I had sent my Remington 700PSS in .308 back to the factory due to a grossly defective crown, as the 45 degree bevel at the muzzle was clearly eccentric to the bore, leaving the bottom of the muzzle deeply cut and the top not crowned at all. While I had not tested it with a wide variety of loads, I reasonably attributed its faulure to go sub-2MOA @ 100 yards with known-good M852-equivilant handloads to be the direct result of this serious defect and considered further testing to be a waste of time. Disgusted at a reputable arms maker for screwing up on something so easy to get right yet so critical to a rifles performance, I let the LE distributer I bought it from ship it back to Ilion for repair.

The months pass...

I go to pick up the rifle today and the first words out of the managers mouth is, "its here, but you arent going to like this". He proved to be a master of understatement. Remington shipped it back with a note saying that it had shot a .5 MOA group at 100 yards with the Remington 168gr. MK load and that the rifle needed no repair as far as they could tell. It was returned with the crown unmodified and thus still visibly screwed up. I have no issue wih the distributor, as they have done everything they could to help me on this (even tossed me a box of 168gr. Remington MK loads to try in it) but my distress and disgust with Remington has now deepened. How any competant and reputable arms maker can let such a rifle out the door not once, but *twice* is beyond me. First of all, I find it difficult to belive that such a group was ever fired out of this rifle, as even the most lowly of Carcanos of Mosin Nagant rifles not only leave the factory with better crowns but generaly have better crowns after several years of hard combat! Second, even if such a miraculous group was shot using Remingtons ammo, it sure as hell wont shoot with ammo that I know will shoot MOA to beyond 300 yards out of every rifle it has ever been fired out of, until now. I cant have this thing being flaky and picky about what it wants to shoot on a given day, assuming it actualy would shoot *anything* even marginaly well.

So what now? Well, in just a minuite I am headed over to the Brownells sight to do what I should have done to begin with: order a crowning cutter and several pilots and fix the damn thing myself. I have to tell y'all, though: such chopping on a brand-new $700 rifle is not exactly what I had in mind when I bought this thing. For this much trouble and money I could have custom-built a damn rifle to my own spec on either a Howa or Winchester action in a McMIllan stock and with a "brand-name" barrel. This is certainly what I will do next time, as my confidence in Remington is about shot.

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 21:56:16 (ZULU)

CONTACT GOVERNOR DAVIS AND ASK HIM TO VETO SB23 AND AB202 TODAY! TEL: (916)445-2841 OR FAX: (916)445-4633. THIS IS THE AR'S LAST STAND IN CALIFORNIA! JOIN ME, WON'T YOU?
C. Ross <chr@alanex.com>
CA, USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 22:29:30 (ZULU)

There's not much the factory will do, so do it your self, or have a good 'smith do it.

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 22:41:12 (ZULU)

A year or so ago I pulled several quotes from a long range email list concerning Remington barrels. This was posted in May 1998 but bears repeating every so often. Hope Maurius doesn't mind the addition bandwidth.

----------------------
snipped heavily..... My 700VSSF came with a quality stock, so poorly fitted to the gun that the action never settled into the aluminum bedding block until the action was epoxy bedded, the forestock was contacting the "free floated" barrel, and the bolt was jammed against the stock when the action was cocked. A little judicious tuning was all that was required to make this one shoot decently, but it would seem that an extra fifteen to thirty minutes of labor could be performed at the factory without unduly raising prices on these rifles.

----------------------
Actually, I have an interesting little anecdote that describes the state of affairs among the factory gun makers. About three years ago, BxxxxSxxx was engaged to consult with one of the Big Four about some problems that they were having with their barrels. I spent quite a bit of time with the "barrel team" at this particular company, and the root of their overall problem soon became very evident - simply put, they had no passion for their product at all. As amazing as it might sound, the factory's chief engineer for barrels was a young guy who had no qualms about admitting that he had:
1.) never fired a gun,
2.) had no present interest in firing a gun, and
3.) had no intention of ever firing a gun in the future.

To him, the barrel he was making had no more significance that any other widget, and the quality of the product reflected his (and his team's) lack of understanding and enthusiasm about guns in general and rifle barrels in particular. Some of his comments still reverberate in my mind when this subject comes up...

----------------------
The worst part of it is, as the name replies PSS , Police Sharp Shooter, designed to be used in a situation where extreme accuracy is essential in life or death situations. I guess the extremely long throat (at least half the barrel length) and the "wide Bore" allow for many thousands of rounds to be fired before it becomes clogged with residue, providing longer shooting pleasure between cleanings. Thanks Remington.

----------------------
I don't know just how much time and $$$ I would bother to spend on a new Remington barrel. While I have several older ones that shoot quite well, some of the more recent examples I have seen have been so bad it's hard to understand how they could even get them screwed onto the reciever! One recent example was bent in two directions and another had an unrifled section on one side near the muzzle!

----------------------
A friend purchased a .223 Remington PSS (composite stock, etc.) last year and was disappointed that it wouldn't shoot less than 1.5 inches at 100 yards. After fiddling with it a while, it was determined that the last 2 inches of the barrel was sans rifling!

----------------------
Speaking of Remington barrels, My brand new 700PSS, supposed "accuracy out of the box", in .308 has a bore diameter of >.310, Now that's quality control!

-Tom S.
It was also said that Remington has about $13.00 in each barrel. Don't quote me on this. But even if this figure is off by a factor of 3 it would still be only $39.00. Heck, I can almost spend that much on a hammer.

That's all the bad news for now.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Monday, July 19, 1999 at 23:56:57 (ZULU)

I wouldn't think twice about hunting any thing with a with a black powder rifle, and correct bullet design, but I sure would feel better about hunting dangerous game if there was someone backing me up with a 416 rigby mag!!!!

....................BigGunn......................
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country.....In the mighty HOT state of....., Pa., USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 00:22:04 (ZULU)

Gentlemen, don't forget the recent post on cold bore shooting. This has the Bolt concerned that he isn't practicing properly. This will lead to more questions and I know you don't want that LOL.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 01:44:31 (ZULU)

Pat
PL <nrdwr.plakin@state.ut.us>
Whiterocks, Utah, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 02:21:34 (ZULU)

1: Does a bipod really help with placing accurate shots at long ranges?

2: What would you say is the max effective range on a 7mm remmington mag?

3: Does the .357sig really require special dies to reload, or can you use .357 and .40 dies and fudge it?

Thanx for the time and the info.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
Hot As Hell, Maryland, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 03:08:19 (ZULU)

I finally got to examine a Winchester M-70 Sharpshooter yesterday. An older gent was walking around with one at a local gun show. I could have bought the whole thing including a Burris 12x scope for 500 bucks. He said he never shot it. I guess it is just a taste thing but I dont like the white stainless barrel on a otherwise matte black rifle.

To Bolt: RE: CBS Go to the articles and commentary section and read an article by Scott on "Rifle testing for dummies" I think he had you in mind when he wrote it. :) It is a good article.

To Pat, Joey Garza rifle. That is what I thought it might be also. I think the rifle did not exist until several years after this movie's time frame was supposed to depict though.
If anyone would like to know how Judge Roy Bean really died I found this site, http://www.calweb.com/~rbbusman/lawmen/bean.html
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 04:50:37 (ZULU)

The "C" in "CMP" marked on Colt barrels stands for Colt, not Chrome. You will notice Bushmaster barrels are stamped "BMP", the B of course for Bushmaster, the M for magnetic partical inspection (Magnaflux) and P for proofed. True, Colt has stopped chroming some of its civilian barrels in the last few years. Colts "Match" barrels are also not chromed.
mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 05:01:52 (ZULU)

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
needmoreranes, Maryland, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 08:06:58 (ZULU)

Mike S.
Where do you get your information?

To the best of my knowledge the C (for chrome) has been there since 1967, as that is when Colt first started chrome plating chambers. A short time later the bore was plated too. I believe, but have no proof that all civilian chroming stopped in the fall of 1998. Colt always makes "running changes". So there are always many transitional models each time a production change is made. I havent' seen any late production, but would think that the markings have, or will be changed.

I have no idea what the "B" stands for on Bushmasters. If it does indeed stand for Bushmaster then that is great. All rifle barrels should be traceable. I know that Wilson has always stamped a "W" on their barrels.

I'm looking at page 24 of document MIL-R-63997B (AR). This particular section deals with the required inspection methods of various rifle parts.

MILITARY SPECIFICATION
RIFLE, 5.56MM: M16A2
12 December 1986

DEFECT NO. 71. Barrel Assembly. Missing proof marks, magnetic particle stamp and chrome chamber marking.
INSPECTION METHOD: Visual
SAMPLING PROCEDURE: 100%

I have been told by a very reliable source that the stamping info is also on the Colt blueprints.

That's all for now.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 12:28:44 (ZULU)

Recently linked to a Congressional webpage through Firearms Tactical website. Seems some Congressional folks were briefed on the capabilities of the .50, and the thought of API rounds getting into the hands of civilians gives them the willies. Good reading at http://www.house.gov/waxman/50/video/video.html

Jon Custis <jacustis@aol.com>
Orlando, FL, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 14:45:17 (ZULU)

I called Brownells, and they say they don't have 30mm Posi-align "Zee" rings. They have standard 30mm Zee rings (without the inserts), and Posi-align (with inserts) 30mm in standard configuration (not Weaver style)... but not what "we" would be looking for.

If anyone has a set of Posi-align (with inserts), 30mm, Weaver style Zee rings... please let me know where you got them, and what the stock number is.

Burris still says... "Next year".

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 15:04:28 (ZULU)

I no longer make floating AR-SR tubes, but have used several over the years. My choice, of those I've seen, is the ArmaLite. Easy to fit, and always straight enough give the barrel enough clearance (some don't).

Larry,

Sounds to me like you have a usable twist on your 7MM. Don't let theory or fact scare you away from trying the light bullets in a fast twist. At practical ranges (for the particular bullet) you may NEVER experience a problem.

Several years ago I fitted two 7-08 Kriegers for highpower competitor, Jack McCann. One with a 9" twist and the other an 8" twist. The 9" twist was returned for sale to someone needing a slower twist. The heaviest intended bullet, as I recall, was the 168 Sierra. I think a lighter bullet was to be used for the "shorts".
Mr. McCann later had me order yet another Krieger in 7MM. This one is a 7.8" twist and what he considered perfect for the range of bullets he was using. This fellow has a 600Y range out his front door and I respect his opinion.

There is a bit of a chuckle here. Mr. McCann is now shooting an AR match rifle across the course in .223. I doubt there is enough money around to purchase that rifle, but the 7MM (pre-64 & blank) barrels are here and for sale.

Ron N.,

I checked the CMP marked (non-plated)AR barrel this morning. It was built in 1995. Although I've handled many of these barrels, I've not payed a lot of attention to them. Also, I checked a new HB take-off Bushmaster barrel that I got in a trade with Ol' Dawg. It is marked BMP (FWIW) and is chrome plated. Not sure where any of this leaves us, but normally the chrome plated wonders don't shoot too well. While saying that they don't shoot too well, I must add that I know several competitors that have made high master and distinguished with the plated AR's in SR competition. Chrome plated barrel or no, they still shot better (and were easier to handle) than 90% of the M-14/M1-A's. This statement may not set well with the M1A owners, but I'm well satisfied with that opinion.

Running for cover..........
BILL WYLDE <k9wxr@rr1.net>
SWELTERING - SE, IL, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 17:58:38 (ZULU)

We need higher taxes on private airplanes...
Higher taxes on aviation gas...
Mandatory black boxes to go with the pilot...
Mandatory flight plans...
10 day waiting period for approval of flight plans by the FAA, (not available on weekends), flights not permitted without approval.
Limit to one flight a month...
Background checks on all persons riding in private planes...
Safety locks on all aircraft (FAA to keep the keys!)
Ban on long range gas tanks... (Maximum of 50 miles!)
Elimination of all air shows (to keep young, innocent children, from getting interested in this deadly, unnecessary, pastime!)
Must prove need before private pilot license is issued.

... just as a start. And don't laugh, I could stand on the floor of congress, and justify every one of these...

... to a Democrat

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 19:14:01 (ZULU)

Bolt,
It's hard to shot more than about two cold bore shots a day. I was told at one of the police sniper schools that I went to that it takes a good 4 hours to cool the barrel back to the same place as it was for the first cold bore shot. I have no way to disprove this or argue with it, it's just what I was told by a pretty good instructor. He said a good gauge of how your rifle shoots is to use the same target over a number of weeks and see what your group looks like when your done shooting one cold bore shot at it each time you go out in all types of conditions. This will be the true test of you and your rifles capabilities. I have tried it and it is very interesting to see the results.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 19:22:12 (ZULU)

You out there man?
willam <www.guns@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 20:04:52 (ZULU)

Did your instructor indicate the condition that you should leave your barrel in after a day at the range? Example; cleaned oiled and dry patched, cleaned but not oiled, etc. It appears that this may make a difference in loading and going in a hurry without having to worry about the barrel condition. This same concept would hold true for those deer hunting days where you get in the woods late and can't have a fouling shot.

Well, the decision on the reloader is made. The concensus(sp?) opinion from this and other sites is Dillon equipment and Redding dies. Now must wait for the money tree to bloom again as that equip is fairly more expensive than the RCBS. Although the 550B is a progressive, I have rave reviews that it performs just as accuratly as a single stage. Me thinks an electronic scale is not worth the expense due to it's persnikitiness with varying ambient conditions and cats walking on them. Must read more and find a good video to help with the learning curve.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 20:56:51 (ZULU)

Q for any other 'smiths out there: I note that Brownells no longer carries the liquid release agent (like RAM 220) they use to sell. I was going to try a can of their spray stuff this time. Any opinions of alternatives that anybody cares to offer?

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

-Tom
Tom Simspon <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 1999 at 22:01:09 (ZULU)

Try the local fiberglass supply house or a boat builder for the liquid mold release that is sprayed into hull molds before gel-coating. A boat builder is your most likely source for a small amount. The paste wax mold release may be another choice.

From South of Wacahoota where the men are men. The women are men. And the sheep are nervous.

Roger

Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 00:03:59 (ZULU)

Feeling like a dumb-ass
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 00:15:01 (ZULU)

Cheers.
Dave Jones <splat@ihug.co.nz>
Wellington , New Zealand - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 00:31:31 (ZULU)

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 00:39:51 (ZULU)

Check out LEE Precision .357SIG dies. MidwayUSA has 'em for about $25/set.

I cannot remember the brand but there is a product that you can clamp onto the tube of your scope which has a bubble level in it - to detect rifle cant. I believe that it's desinged to not mar the finish of the scope. I have a Springfield Armory Gov't Model scope with the level built internally. Very slick!

I understand that longer is more accurate, in barrels. Depending on the velocity you will gain about 1/2 of one percent velocity per inch of barrel length.

Semper Fi!
Roger Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Corpus Christi, TX, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 00:57:00 (ZULU)

Quickbow hates dentists
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
needmoregunstoresin, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 01:23:48 (ZULU)

Just use regular paste car wax. Works fine and is very thin. Follow directions on can.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 01:51:35 (ZULU)

Re: Colt AR-15 markings

>Mike S.
>Where do you get your information?

USGI prints. Dont have them handy, but it states that the first initial is the makers mark, C for Colt, that the M stands for magnetic particle inspection and the P is for
proof load firing.

>To the best of my knowledge the C (for chrome) has been there since >1967, as that is when Colt first started
>chrome plating chambers. A short time later the bore was plated too. >I believe, but have no proof that all civilian
>chroming stopped in the fall of 1998. Colt always makes "running >changes". So there are always many transitional
>models each time a production change is made. I havent' seen any late >production, but would think that the
>markings have, or will be changed.

No, they havent, that I have seen. They are still "C MP"

>I have no idea what the "B" stands for on Bushmasters. If it does >indeed stand for Bushmaster then that is great.
>All rifle barrels should be traceable. I know that Wilson has always >stamped a "W" on their barrels.

Right, the first letter is the manufacturer. And FN made barrels are "F MP" as they should be.

>I'm looking at page 24 of document MIL-R-63997B (AR). This particular >section deals with the required
>inspection methods of various rifle parts.

>MILITARY SPECIFICATION
>RIFLE, 5.56MM: M16A2
>12 December 1986

>DEFECT NO. 71. Barrel Assembly. Missing proof marks, magnetic >particle stamp and chrome chamber marking.
>INSPECTION METHOD: Visual
>SAMPLING PROCEDURE: 100%

Perhaps there is a chrome chamber stamp, but I dont think it is the "C" in "C MP". I dont have any Colt barrels around to look for other marks.

>I have been told by a very reliable source that the stamping info is >also on the Colt blueprints.

It is. I don't have them in front of me, but to the best I can remember, the first marking is for the manufacturer, thus Colt is C, FN is F, Bushmaster is B, Wilson is W, etc. I will forward this to someone I know who knows AR ins side and out from working at an AR manufacturer. Will keep you posted.

mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 02:53:07 (ZULU)

I went to get a Rem 700 VS-SF(varmint synthetic stainless fluted) today. ALL OUT, Remington discontinued them. I knew this, but I figured there would be some in the pipeline. Is it worth getting a rifle in stainless?
I hear there are a few BDL or ADL's (PLEASE EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE, I STILL DON'T KNOW) left with short thin barrels and open sights, but i would have to change out the barrel. Should i go with a laminate blued varmint and toss the stock?
IS IT EASIER TO CHANGE STOCKS OR BARRELS???? no experience with either here.
I'd rather no flutings, but could probably put up with them.
I've heard some from people about them but would appreciate some info on the ADL/BDL difference. Would it be better just to try and get a police model for more $ in blued with the police synthetic stock?
sorry for the confusing message. I'm mostly curious about the questions in caps, but any advice would always be appreciated. if you can please email me gaveup99@hotmail.com or just post it on the roster here and i will try to find it.
THANKS
Matt Bortz <gaveup99@hotmail.com>
pulling out hair from this decision in, IL, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 03:40:30 (ZULU)

Can any of you keen reloaders tell me what makes of dies fit a Dillon RL550b press? (cals .308 & .338 Lapua).

All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand.

The earlybird gets the worm,but the second mouse gets the cheese.

(one for Pablito) Whats the speed of dark?

.
darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
deep South - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 03:42:28 (ZULU)

Dillon has dies available in their catalog, Blue Press. They run about $49 for reg steel ones, and more for carbide. Check em out at www.dillonprecision.com. Also I beleive Redding dies work, also available from Dillon.

Also, anyone know how good the quality of teh scopes that come on the Savage package guns are? I know they are 3-9x32, and from what I have seen, the image through them is pretty crisp.

Quickbow
Quickbow <quickbow@hotmail.com>
needallnightdentistryin, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 03:53:30 (ZULU)

Just got some Lapua .30 B416 200gr subsonic bullet's to play with(reload),code 4PL7060, and some .30 GB432 scenar 185gr.Will try out in suppressed Win M-70 .308,last time I tired to make subsonic load's for it with Hornady 168gr BTHP they sounded like a air rifle,but they did not stabilise,at 20yds they were keyholing.Maybe the B416 will stabilise,they look like a BT version of a cast bullet,with what look's like lube grooves around the middle,but are a FMJ bullet,just like Trigger50 described.Will not try the scenar in the M-70,but will try in the TRG-21 in both subsonic and fullhouse loads,should be fun.

Later Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 04:35:54 (ZULU)

With crawling around on the ground and the elements in mind stainless has it's advantages. As for the reflectivity issue, there are one or two (mabye even more) custom finishes available to coat stainless. Many of which can me had in matte black and olive drab. The names and companies escape me at the moment.

I'm waiting to feast my eyes on the new composite barreled 700 VS. I just might take one in .308. Of course I'll bring along a friend who is a gunsmith to pick it over with a fine toothed micromenter err comb. The Muzzle of the barrel is polished (why polished?) SS as well as the chamber/throat area. A thin band of SS pokes throught near the reciever and what appears to be an 1/4" inch of SS at the muzzle as viewed from the side. The crown end view seems to resemble a mirrior far to well for my tastes as well. I may be looking at geting a finish put over these areas. I do think that composite barrel technology is going to be here to stay. Stiff, light and major advantages in the area of heat disipation. It may seem goofy to some now but so did semi-automatic pistols way back when in 1909 when J. M. Browning was tinkering with his prototypes for the 1911. How many beat cops, FBI, DEA, Spooks (Spys), Soldiers etc do you see with "wheel guns" ? How many have plastic (oops polymer frames)?

Light guns may recoil more but which is going to be harder on you- 1. You hike 18 miles trying to be quiet in broken terrain with a heavy ruck and a 9# rifle even with a tapered bull barrel (or 8-1/2 fluted)then crawl for 6hrs on your belly at a rate which makes a three-toed sloth look as fast as bruce lee and follow it up by making 1S. 'fer' 1k. 2. Now try that whole scenario except with the non tapered composite barreled rifle weighing in at 7-7/8 #

Incidently RE Remington- I worked in firearms sales for three years- I changed jobs a year ago. I did notice more firearms falling into our Remington whoops file, however, I did still see more problems with other lines in the same price range. We used to only see one or two rem mistakes per season. It eventually changed to ten. It is important to remember that we sold about 200 Rem 700's for every 40 of all other rifle brands combined. From a percentage of firearms sold that had mistakes stand point it still was the most solid line a working person can afford.
Patrick <Luznutbehindewheel@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 05:11:52 (ZULU)

I have been drooling over a composite barreled 10-22 for months, but the $$ is prohibitive so far. I already have a perfectly OK .22, which I cant get myself to sell.
Anyway, carbonfiber/epoxy composite on .30 cal rifles? What happens when you shoot the thing hot? We paint composite aircraft white so the sun wont heat them...
OK graphite is a very good heat conductor, but the heat cond. of epoxy really sucks. So heat would not dissipate any quicker than steel, and epoxy can only take a 100 C or so, maybe 150 for special stuff.
And during rapid fire, and not so rapid too, if you shoot more than 20-30 rounds, I can tell you a barrel is way over 100 C.
So how do they fix this?

Krister
Krister Engvoll <k.engvoll@norton.no>
Norway - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 06:33:55 (ZULU)

Redfield was bought by one of the other companies, though which escapes me at the momnet (Brown? Blount?) so the Redfield name and product line (scope rings, bases, etc.) should still be available. The story I heard was that Redfield had been dumping all of its toxic waste materials (cleaners, solvents, etc.) out behind the building for years, and the property next door sold to someone. The new owner did a site assessment, discovered the contaminants, and tracked them back to Redfield. The clean-up costs was going to cost Redfield more than the company was worth, so they closed thier doors. All the toolings, rights to the Redfield name, etc., were sold off. I think it was Blount, but I'm not sure, that bought it.

======================================================

Matt:
The ADL Remingtons are a little more simple. They have the same action, but don't have hinged floorplates for the magazine like the BDLs do. At least that's my understanding.

======================================================

Does anyone have a number or some contact information about Baer tapered bases?

Thanks,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 07:10:25 (ZULU)

I come to you from Guns. com, another fine page.

R.D. Jones
Gillette, Wyoming
R.D. Jones <rdjrrj1@vcn.com>
Gillette, Wyoming, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 07:32:19 (ZULU)

Mike S.
If that is what it says, then I stand corrected. My Colt print is floating around the AR web world right now.

I have a couple of Colt barrels. The old 1981 SP1 is marked C MP and CHROME BORE.

A later 1988 HBAR just has the C MP marking.

Is there a easy way to tell the chromes from non-chromes? I do have a loupe to observe the "end" material if needed.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 10:47:36 (ZULU)

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 10:52:34 (ZULU)

ADL=magazine in stock, load and empty from the top
BDL=magazine in stock, load from top and empty by dropping hinged floor plate.
DM=detachable magazine. (I personally detest the style Remington uses, but that's another story)

>IS IT EASIER TO CHANGE STOCKS OR BARRELS????
Stocks are easy, barrels best left to a gunsmith for proper headspacing (IE so your rifle doesn't blow up)

>better just to try and get a police model for more $ in blued
>with the police synthetic stock?

I like my Police, however I'd recomend looking around for a varmet with syntheticstock. Even if it has to be shipped to a local FFL it still will be cheaper.

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
ft. Meade, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 11:11:43 (ZULU)

I would like to remove the mounting spigot from the palm stop and instal it into the end of my rifle stock (like the original Parker Hale).

Any hints, etc.? What is the best way to drill the hole, and what epoxy would work best? I have a Remington 700P DM.

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 11:57:36 (ZULU)

Botach.com having a hell of a sale. 15% off most everything on site. Aimpoint COMP M XD $355x85%= $301. Etc.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 11:58:55 (ZULU)

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 12:00:07 (ZULU)

1.-5. June, Versailles, France, European Cup 300m free rifle 1/1 match:

Winner: Geir Magne Rolland, Norway: 1180points out of 1200 possible!!

To put things into perpective:

120shots, 40 prone, 40 kneeleng and 40 standing unsupported with sling.

Target: 300m UIT, 10X is 10cm/4" at 300m/330yds.

Rifle: UIT free rifle with "open" sights. (no optics)

Any takers with a scoped sniperrifle? :-)

Have a nice day!

TorF <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 12:50:32 (ZULU)

For all those that slept that day in 3rd grade. The Revolution "started" when the colonial Militia (upstanding armed citizens, NOT a "national guard" or "regular army") stood up to the British that were marhing to seize the armory at Concord. The milita stopped them at Lexington green.. this was where "the shot heard round the world" happened.. Also "we" were ALWAYS Americans, at that point we were Americans, British Colonial Citizens under British Colonial rule. This was the same status as Indians (India) they were "British subjects" under the rule of colonial governors and subject to British law. Overall the British generally considered "colonists" second class compared to "real British" citizens. Also remember that even as the Revolution started, there was NOT overwhelming support from the American population as a whole, and it wasn't until much later in the war that many people wanted to break from Britan. Even noteable such as Jefferson and Patrick Henry, struggled with the decision and probably would have stayd with the status quo much longer had it not been for Lexington. Also remeber that overall we lost FAR MORE BATTLES than we won during the Revolution. It was not until late in the war that things started to turn around, and until after B. Franklin was able to ink an alliance w/ France the we really started to be a country, as opposed to an uprising... Just something to think about.

Now the question... between the Savage 110fp in 308 and the PSS.. any overwhelming benefits to the Rem???

Thanks!
sean

seanc <casler@concorde.com>
Boston, ma, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 12:54:09 (ZULU)

Tom,
I use the spray release agent and it works great!!

Dave J,
Pablito is right (As usual) in range finder cut the number in half and thats wht the working range is. So far the Bushnell 1000 is the best of the cheap ones but its max range was 625 yards on a IPSIC target 18x30".
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 13:11:27 (ZULU)

Chris: Let me know what loads you'll use for the 185 gr Scenar's. They are my standard bullet, along with the 167 gr and I'd like to see what load you use for both the sub-sonic and the full-blown load.

Daniel: On living somewhere else; I realise that it's going to be quite lame after talking to all these American guys, but gun-laws in the Netherlands are quite more liberal then they are at your place. Our ranges (for civilians that is) are somewhat shorter though. 500m max is what you can expect. The rest is reserved for civilian use. You can always join the ERA though and clock up some longer shoots. We can have assault-rifles and hand-guns (even exotic ones like the SIG 550 Commando). And it's only a short trip across the pond to your cherished homeland. But, best of all, WE HAVE FOAM ON OUR BEERS!!!!!
I recall you asked me to team up with you for SMTC next year. Unfortunately for you I'll go there with my buddy Marco. If you find yourself a partner, we can go over there all together and arrange for shared transportation.

L8er!

Stefan
PS. Y'all should come over here and participate in the Nijmegen 4-day Marches. I can't make it this year, but it's 200 km (124 miles) in 4 days.

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Nijmegen, home of the 4-day hell of blistered feet, The Netherlands - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 13:47:18 (ZULU)

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 14:02:08 (ZULU)

MikeM/Undude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 14:55:28 (ZULU)

Terry W. Crihfield <tcrihfield@east.dolir.state.mo.us>
Poplar Bluff, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 15:46:55 (ZULU)

Sean
Well said, anyone would be hard pressed to convince me the second amendment was put into place to ensure the Military always had arms.
anyone with even a remote brain can figure out that National Guard is not militia, do to the fact that the arms are locked away under total gov control. Thus the term minuet man would be shot to shit since you would have to take time to arm ect. or if the gov turned on the people.(we all know that just doesnt happen) you would be locked away from the guns.
Partison <Partison@hotmail.com>
Mt., USA - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 17:06:17 (ZULU)

A 200km march in 4 days?I better get in shape.
Daniel

P.S We have foam on our beers!(You just need to shake them a bit)
Good Shooting.
Daniel <awhiting@idirect.com>
Canada - Wednesday, July 21, 1999 at 17:11:31 (ZULU)