July 1999

thanks

Andrew
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 00:07:11 (ZULU)

I'll weigh in on the H&K 91 vs FN FAL issue. In my mind, there is no comparison between the two. The FN FAL is the finest battle rifle in the world IMHO. The weapon can be tuned to perform to specifications far beyond the average to good shooter and is a comfortable weapon to shoot AND carry. The H&K is like handling a chunk of railroad iron for all the balance it has. I agree with B. Rogers that it is, no doubt, a fine LE special weapon. But LE types don't carry anything very far. I have a matchgrade FN FAL that stock shoots well out to 850 yds which is as far as I have shot it and it certainly made tactical hits with ANY junk ammo I put in it. The SAR 4800 is another preferred choice over th H&Ks for durability, balance and performance out of the box. None of these weapons are known for their discreet ejection of brass.

On ops in SEA and Latin America, I carried my bolt gun broken down and cased under my pack. My One One observer and I both carried CAR versions of the M-16 with 220 rounds as basic load. My One One did not carry any .308 and I only carried 20 rounds. I only engaged is selected target engagement and never in support of line ops where suppressing long range fire was employed. Times and mission parameters have changed, so my operational approach may be out of date.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 01:27:07 (ZULU)

Although I am biased, if I were you I would pay B. Wylde to perform his magic on an AR. Then take the AR and bet your friend your gun against his HK in a shooting match at 300 meters. He will surely take the bet, because of course the 308 is far more accurate than the 223 [?]. After you spank him, you will have spent less than $1,500, and you will own 1 of the world's finest guns AND the HK91:)

Whatever you decide, have fun with it...we are just renting this stuff for awhile:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 01:37:04 (ZULU)

James J., If a guy of your history agrees with me I cant be stopped.

Now if Old Dog could just come up with a SAR4800 to trade me. We cant have FAL's or SAR48's in the Peoples Republic of Calif. With some great boltguns on the way. A few AR's and a FAL/SAR4800 I will be set. Find me one Bruce I have several Sheep all packaged to send you in trade.

The Undude/Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 03:31:12 (ZULU)

Inspiring minds want to know.................BigGunn................

BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn.Country..........In the cool of the evening here in the almost burnt up state of..., Pennsylvania, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 03:39:12 (ZULU)

I've got an AR-10(t) that out of the box will out shoot the M-1A national match I sold to buy it. My best 100 yard group to date is 10rnds into 9/16". And I'm still breaking in the barrel. Not a single malfunction in 60rnds. For a semi-auto, I cant say enough good things about this rifle.
Bruce <BCqc@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 05:38:43 (ZULU)

B.Rogers: Unfortunately I have no pictures of my gun yet, but during the summer I will take some and scan them to a file. Sooner or later pictures will be available in the internet. In the meantime you can go to Dakota´s homepages. My rifle looks quite a bit like the Dakota Longbow, although my version is lefthanded, the stock is black and a the removable magazine can be seen. Also the scope mounts in my rifle are different. Sizewise both guns are the same, barrel length around 28", barrel thickness around 1", total length around 52" and weight around 15 pounds. It was not our idea to duplicate or copy the Longbow but when you start to develop a big 338 Lapua rifle in a McMillan A2 stock the end result is pretty much like the Longbow.

Nhatrang62: You spoke of Norma Lockbase. It probably is/was Lapua Lockbase. But anyways for everybody´s information: Norma, Lapua, Vihtavuori and the Norwegian Raufoss of Raufoss Multipurpose ammo fame have created a new company/conglomerate called Nammo. For the time being nothing has changed but it is entirely possible that some restructuring might happen within the concern. My fear is that Norma being the biggest powder producer of these companies may overtake Vihtavuori and that would be a pity as Vihtavuori´s powders are pretty good ones. Funny thing is that Norma produces also cases for 338 Lapua Mag and in a sense the conglomerate is competing with itself. In any case the idea behind these restructurings is to create one big powder/ammo/bullet company that can survive in international competition. Hopefully they do not forget us sport shooters totally. Nammo has home pages and their address is www.nammo.fi

Torsten: Thank you for your e-mail. I think that I will have enough sight seeing to do even though we can not meet next week. The last time I was in Berlin, it was May 1989, around six months before Der Mauer fall down. It is very interesting to see how the eastern parts have developed in the last 10 years. Last time I didn´t like the atmosphere in the DDR/East-Berlin at all.

Take care

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 07:53:33 (ZULU)

Here's my two cents worth. I forgot to say IMHO before every word I typed. So I hereby say that this is all my opinion and you have the God given right to disagree!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 11:23:19 (ZULU)

I'm looking for some help in choosing an AR-15, also known by some as a "mouse gun".

My current choices are among Colt, Armalite, and Bushmaster.

I'd really appreciate hearing from everyone on which of these companies is putting out a good product today. I welcome any and all information that helps me make an informed decision.

After 11 years in the Marines I'm very familiar with Colt's military issue but I've never worked with any of the civilian versions.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Semper Fi.
Brian M. <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
El Toro, California, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 12:27:34 (ZULU)

The M1A1 has served well, not because of the weapon -- there are better ones out there -- because of the extraordinary skill of the men tasked to use them.

Big Gunn: Guys carried their sniper ammo differently. I carried mine in a little case that looked like the boxes used to carry detonators. Each round cased in foam -- to prevent noise, no other reason. It looked kinda sexy too whem the grunts would come around and would ask to see the ammo the scary sniper carried, I would look around as if I were going to show naked pictures of somebody's sister and let them peek at the case heads nestled in their little beds. The shit we do. We never grow up. Thank God. Life is so much more fun for us than that other half of the species.

Bruce:

The AR-10s I have had come through the course, when equipped with good optics performed, as you say, superbly out to 300 and excellent to 500. Haven't worked with enough of them at 600+ to comment and I have only test fired them at 300.

Bill R: As Stephan noted. My FN beats the hell out of the neck of my brass. I have never reloaded but am considering it (more a political decision than one of anal compulsion). Is there anything I can do to prevent the brass getting beat up? Can I reload it-- you indicated it could be reloaded but case life is shortened? By how much is case life shortened? Can or should I use a Dillon 550 or should I go to a single stage press for this type of reloading? Anybody with info, please have at it.

De Oppresso Liber

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom's Country, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 13:28:32 (ZULU)

Don't get me wrong, I really like the TRG, ALOT. And I did dissasemble it to get a better idea of quality of construction...The muzzle brake was in the box by-the-way, I missed it. I like the way the design was executed. But I still think the stock shell is kind of rinky-tink. .338 LM ammo here is 95.00US. Ouch! At least that is the price offered to the public at the store. I got it at cost. I would like to try one in .308...They need to build one in .300 Win Mag.

I don't have a need or desire for a rifle in .338 LM. so I may not do alot of shooting with it. Hopefully Mark is going to order the TRG in .308. I'll be curious to test it too.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
On a beach in , Florida, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 14:18:49 (ZULU)

Ammo: For LE, I have a special vest that Blackhawk makes but is not in the Cat. It has swing pouches on the front for ammo boxes. It connects in the middle and if you need to go prone the pouches swing to the side and connect. Works well. I carry the ammo in the original boxes, inside a zip lock bag. They are put in the pouches, which I have lined with EVA Foam for protection.

Pistol, both team members carry a sniper rifle. It would depend on the mission as to handguns. In many cases I would not take one. If I felt the need I would carry in a thigh holster with a lose leg strap. When I went prone I would rotate the holster for comfort. I do not like the holster on the vest. I want the front of the vest free of anything. I have been thinking of a holster on the left side of the vest, hard to get to but out of the way.

Mike/Undude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 14:32:58 (ZULU)

B.Rogers: Attached to Wylde's AR's? haha Only guns I have that aren't up for adoption:) As for the Rhino...it is all in the shot placement...and the tracking.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 16:35:24 (ZULU)

I own several Colts and one Bushmaster, and I can tell you that either one of these manufacturers make decent product.I've heard a lot of good things about Armalite and I'd really like to own an AR-10 someday.

Befor you buy one,decide what types of shooting and ammunition you will be shooting.This may affect your decision on which manufacturer you choose.

If you plan on just plinking and using the weapon for home defense, a 1/9 barrel may be more flexible than a 1/7 barrel for using 40-69 gr. bullet weights.Colt's standard HBAR model is a 1/7 type.Bushmaster and Armalite have a 1/9 as standard.This may or may not be an important consideration for you.

If price is not an issue, then go for the Colt.They have the reputation for consistently manufacturing quality product.They will also have a hihgher resale value because of this.Basically you get what you pay for.

I personally wouldn't own an Olympic Arms model though.I've never owned one but I know some who have.Their ownership experiences were not positive ones.

From time to time it's possible to get a lemmon with any manufacturer,including Colt.I'm not aware of any of the manufacturers you listed having the international ISO 9000 quality standard certification.

I shoot AR's with close to 20 people in my local Provincial Rifle Association.Every one of them have Colts except for one Canadian Forces Dimeaco made rifle.

If you go with the most proven product you will most likely reduce your chances for disappointment.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 16:49:23 (ZULU)

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 16:53:28 (ZULU)

I have a simple question concerning "eye dominance".

I am right handed and left eye dominant.

Over the years, my skill at getting the bullet to the center of the target has been ok using a variety of pistols and rifles.

I've tried firing in all the permutations I can think, alas, to no lasting benefit (eg. repeatable).

Before I resign myself to perpetual struggle, I thought I would ask if any of you have a suggestion; personal experience with being left eye dominant and right handed preferred, but I'd like to hear what anyone has to say.

And if this has been covered before at this forum, tell me when and I will go search again with both eyes open.

Thank-you for your consideration,

Duncan

Duncan C. <duncan@jps.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 17:12:44 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info. When I get a 550 (on my list of toys) I'll be back for the loading data.

Bill's comment on the AK is dead on in CQB conditions. I do not consider th AK a
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom Country, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:39:06 (ZULU)

I also am left hand, right eye dominant.

If you want to shoot with your right eye place a small piece of clear Scotch tape on the left lens of your shooting glasses. Place it so as to occlude the front sight on rifle or shotgun with iron sights. Make it small enough not to obscure peripheral vision. If you want to shoot with your left eye you have to teach your body to shoot backwards. This takes about 2000-3000 rounds and will help your “normal” right handed form. Have some fun with this. G o into your local yokel gun shop and shoulder a right handed bolt action rifle to your left shoulder and work the bolt with your right hand. This drives the guys behind the counter nuts. Most of them will try to sell you a left handed action but explain your problem and they probably wont know what to do.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:39:31 (ZULU)

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:41:50 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info. When I get a 550 (on my list of toys) I'll be back for the loading data.

Bill's comment on the AK is dead on in CQB conditions. I do not consider th AK a "battle rifle". The M-16 which is a close battle weapon (<300 yards), the AK is similar without the accuracy but delivering a better punch and having more durability. The M14, M1 and the FN are what I classify as battle rifles (engagement out to 600m without optics, durable, balanced, etc). I hope I am not causing a storm here. I will say that the ergonomics of the M16 are superior to any weapon on the market today. It is precisely the ergonomics of the M16 and the very poor ergonomics of the AK, especially as related to the position of the safety, that I am here on this site today. My adversary is in the land of Buddah. Another reason why here on the ranch, I drag around an SKS because of the quick safety release.

Mike: When you come out here, bring that vest, sounds sensible. Your comment about the thigh holster shows experience. On the chest holster thing: Without getting more longwinded than I have been (once a professor, always a professor), Galco (perish the thought) made a chest holster that I carry because it can be quickly shiftd under the left arm or around to the back to allow for good prone position acquisition. I like my SAS holster, but it is awkward when running as it just "feels" awkward, especially if loose. I also carry the thigh holster on the left leg to keep it out of the way. Of course I can shoot left handed. You probably have to get permission to do so in the People's Republic of Caliprunia:-)

De Oppresso Liber

PS. Trouble with the server. Sorry about the incomplete doublepost.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom Country, New Mexico, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 18:42:15 (ZULU)

Reloading FAL-brass: I toss away the brass that has a really sharp dent in it (like a real fold) and the rest is reloaded untill the neck breaks. This is for my plinking rounds. Don't do much realoding for plinking though, as surplus ammo is way cheap over here right now. When shooting for accuracy, my FAL is set to grenade-mode and I cycle it manually, using match-brass. I love that feature!!!
I hate to tell you guys, but FAL's over here are DARN CHEAP! Do something about that administration of yours and I'll bring a crate of them over when I go to SMTC next year. I can get an original FN-made surplus FAL for about $600 and Steyrs and L1A1's for $500!

L8er!

Hope you are not feeling to bad now....

GUN CONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!
Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Right-handed, Left-eye dominant, is a bitch! - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 20:17:33 (ZULU)

Old Dog, you know you trained all the sheep to say "Bruceeeeee, you my dadddddddy". I'll send the guns to you just as soon as I find a big enough hammer to straighten the bbls. I have been out all day shooting Ground Squirrels with my 300Win. Longest shot was only five hundred with the 220's. Deans Data Book is right on. Squirrels at 500 are still not looking good after a 220 goes in and out. This paragraph is not intended to offend anyone. If you dont like please tune to another one until you find something about flowers or something you do like.

Undude out
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 21:12:40 (ZULU)

Poor little-itty-bitty gwoundy squirrely-wirrlys AND with a MAGNUM SNIPER RIFLE!

And to think people at the range though I was nuts hunting grasshoppers with an 1100 riot gun OO buck combo in 100 temp weather.
Ha-HA! HEE-HEE! HO-HO!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 21:24:42 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 22:42:51 (ZULU)

Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, July 01, 1999 at 23:14:07 (ZULU)

My reasons for purchasing a Bushmaster. Good quality, they are the current military contractor and the takedown pin and the pins in the reciever are the standard size. Colt uses different size pins for polical correctness that makes some custom parts hard to come by. Buy your magazines now, their prices are climbing.

Lovin' Mausers in
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 00:11:06 (ZULU)

JJarrett: I am interested in what you have done to the FAL, barrel-wise. Let me know when you get time.

Speaking of FAL's, picked up a case of sealed FAL mags awhile back...plastic wrap says 4/63...perfect shape. A thing of beauty.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 02:09:39 (ZULU)

Has anyone seen or bought one of the new Leupold illuminated reticle scopes, would you recommend it over the standard reticle scope?

C'mon, throw me a fricken bone here people.
Tailback <darrenjones@linkport.com>
Oregon, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 03:01:47 (ZULU)

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 11:27:33 (ZULU)

I would guess that the publics "understanding" of firearms, and the hatchet job the uneducated (but very "pretty") anchor women on the 6 PM news would do on an LE oficer that used "Dum-Dum" bullets, or "Deadly hollow points", on a helpless robber at the 7-11, who was "only" armed with a .38 revolver, would leave the poor LE bastard in civil court for the rest of his life... and by using Military approved rounds that are designed to "wound" instead of kill, that would be an out... in spite of the fact that the bullet bounced around the 7-11 for ten minutes, taking out a women, a four year old child, and the new soda machine.

Old Dog... is there any case history on this issue, or on LE using handloads, or is it fear of being the first one to defend the issue??

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 13:14:25 (ZULU)

I like the AK also. I like the 7.62x39 for alot of reasons. You can get better accuracy out of that rifle by handloading US componants. But you guys already know that. I have a shiPload of the Russian and East German ammo for my AK and Mini-30 and accuracy leaves alot to be desired. One nice thing about it though, you don't have to police the empty cases and you can shoot all day for pennies. Not to offend Mr. Ruger, but my Hungarian AK (SA-85) is more accurate with the same ammo than my Mini-30.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
P.C., FL, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 14:08:42 (ZULU)

FN-FAL vs. AK-47: I'll go into the weekend, thinking of how this discussion ever wandered from a piece of art (FN-FAL) to a tool (AK).

Something for those of you who are going to Kosovo: BEWARE OF BOOBYTRAPPED AK-47 MAGAZINES. These appeared during the Bosnia conflict and are quite likely to be found in Kosovo. The device is a regular AK magzine with a few live rounds in it. Below the follower is a shortened spring that sits on an explosive device. The fuse is activated on relief of pressure, i.e. when the rounds are stripped from the magazine, either by shooting OR unloading. This type of boobytrap is issued with a safety-pin that sits in a hole somewhere halfway down the mag. Once the pin is pulled, the boobytrap CAN NOT BE DISARMED! The pin can't be placed back and any relief of pressure will cause the charge to detonate. There's nothing on the outside of the magazine that will indicate it's a boobytrap, other then that small hole for the safety-pin. I have a drawing of this device at home that I can scan and e-mail to those of you who are interested. I'll include the complete translated text in the e-mail. Just send me a message.
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
WHoever compares an FN-FAL with an AK is nuts, but that's just my opnion...., what do you think? - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 15:21:43 (ZULU)

Wrap a scarf around your nose and mouth. The cloth will act as a filter and makes you look like a desperado.
During Vietnam U.S. Special Forces would remove some of the powder from AK-47 cartridges and replace it with high explosive but they had to stop because to many GIs were blowing themselves up. Same effect as the device you describe but with a lot less work.
Just remember the first rule of traps and mines “if you don’t half to touch it then don’t”

Happy independence day !
Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 16:07:25 (ZULU)

I have done nothing to the FN except abuse it. Hell, I don't even really understand the gas system adjustment as I have no manual and subscribe to the notion that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Besides, if it is any tool other than horseshoeing tools that I touch, they hide the women, kids and small animals.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Freedom Country, New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 16:36:44 (ZULU)

The only relevant question, in my opinion, is: Should the officer have shot the guy? If so, game over. Once justified, the bullet used becomes irrelevant and there should be no fear in trying those cases. Now you see why I am not in politics? haha

Old [unelectable] Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 18:26:50 (ZULU)

That is all...

Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 18:31:09 (ZULU)

We carried 80-100 rounds standard for the M40A1. Looking back, that seems excessive,especially after James Jarett posted that he carried 20. I guess we were all hoping to pin down an entire company or something.

As for a pistol, I carried my beretta in the regular holster, but I bought the rigid hip extender. I attached it directly to my trouser belt. At first, it flopped a little, but then I put the tie-down strap through the part of the holster back where the metal attachment part is, rather than leaving it sliding through the nylon loop. That better secured the strap, stopped it from sliding, and raised the strap, which gave the added bonus of being able to use my right cargo pocket again. I could drop my h-harness (LBE) and still have 20 rounds and pistol on me.

Both James Jarrett and Mike the Undude mentioned they carry their pistols on their left. You don't come out and say it, but it looks like you both normally shoot right handed. I can't figure out why you switch sides. What advantages have you found in carrying your pistols on your off-hand side? Please don't think of that question as criticism, just trying to learn why you do that.

One last note on holsters- I'm a street cop now, and carry my pistol in a level 3 holster right on my belt line. I don't think a drop belt holster would be a good idea for street use.

Semper Fi,
Mark J

Mark J <MarkJ12pct@aol.com>
Columbus, Ohio, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 19:44:13 (ZULU)

I think the problem with handloads and LE isn't on the good shots but on the bad ones.

Example:
You're an LE sniper, have sights on a bad guy with a hostage, and are given the go ahead to take a shot when clear.

If the shot is unsuccessful, either a flyer that hits a bystander or misses enough that the bad guy can kill the hostage, or if the round hangs in the barrel and your weapon's down, then everything hits the fan. If it comes down to it, and you were using factory ammo, then you're not liable. If you were using handloads that you had made, then they may try to pin you, the reloader, as the scapegoat.

Keyword: LIABILITY.

You're right, though; if the shot is successful, it wouldn't matter at all.

L8R

Oh, PS:
Have a happy 4th, everyone!

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Volunteers, Tennessee, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 20:31:13 (ZULU)

Speaking of the speed of sound through water, and rifles, and, uh... rifles underwater, I am planning a little diabolical experiment in which I will fire an old Enfield in the irrigation pond to see for myself if/how bad she blows. Will report back when the results are in if I still have all my fingers. If my report is poorly typed you can figure I'm keypunching with my nose.

Notice: I am not and never have been "Da Man", nor have I ever played him on TV. I am not associated with him in anyway, and any resemblance between me and Da Man is purely coincidental. And I did not, let me make this very clear, I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH DA MAN. Or should I say "Dat" Man in this case? Ah, well.

Light fuse, get away.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 20:51:28 (ZULU)

We do not use handloads because if something goes wrong the departments would rather have Federal defend their loading techniques than the agencies ours. There is also the issue of tring to make a more lethal round. Cops shoot to stop the threat not kill. It just so happens that when a round traverses the brain everything stops on a permanant basis.

The Undude/Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 21:46:53 (ZULU)

Now, do I think cops should be allowed to load their own in their garage, and use whatever they bring? Nope. Too much room for error. Are there people on a professional level that reload, and beat the consistency and accuracy of factory loads? Yes. Several local forces use such a guy and his prices are higher than factory stuff. Anyway, enough on that.

BRogers: We country boys think alike:) Use of the red herring is an art. I believe every coyote can be trapped...some are easy, some are not. They all have a weakness though. Find it, you get the prize:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 22:17:02 (ZULU)

Okay, now it's my turn: Happy 4th, you American goofballs! Have a good one! (Now why didn't you wish me a happy liberation-day on may 5th? Better luck next year...)

Good night America, wherever you are...

Stefan

GUNCONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Sorry,, B.Rogers, if I made you feel uncomfortable. I'll have Darell send you one of his horny sheep! - Friday, July 02, 1999 at 22:57:48 (ZULU)

To those who are interested in FNs, here is a great website to visit.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1234/

Good reading,
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 00:46:03 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 01:23:02 (ZULU)

straight shooting :)
Haraldur Gústafsson <garou@simnet.is>
Egilsstaðir, Iceland - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 01:35:25 (ZULU)

Shit I got carried away,SORRY.
P.S. Tussock is around a 1-1/2 feet high!
Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 03:04:46 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 07:54:38 (ZULU)

You mentioned a suppressor in your posting. I think you're talking about for a .308 gun when you say the Lapua Subsonic load.

Something that might help you. Lapua uses a 200 grain bullet with a rebated boat tail and some pre-engraved bands on the jacket to reduce bore drag in the barrel.

1st, if you reload, use a 200 grain FLAT BASE bullet with no bands. The flat base bullets have ALWAYS been better for pure accuracy than boat tails. The vast majority of winning benchrest bullets are flatbase, but they are shooting at only 100 or 200 yards. The flatbase bullet clears the muzzle crown more cleanly than the boattails do, with a much less chance of low velocity induced yaw out of the barrel.

2nd, the bands around the bullet on the Lapua create higher drag in flight. The airflow around the bullet is disrupted by these bands and the airflow over the boat tail is also disrupted. The effective ballistic co-efficient is lower when that happens. The maximum effective range for that load is around 300 meters because of the extreme trajectory of the sub-sonic load.

I have a sub-sonic load that uses a 200 gr. flatbase for shooting out of the M-24 without a can on it. Using the M-3's ballistic cam, you need to dial "3" to hit at 100 meters, "6" to hit at 200 meters, and "10" to hit at 300 meters. After that it's all over.

Contact me email and i'll give you the load data for that sub-sonic load. It's good for 1.5 MOA to 300 yards. Long flight times are also a problem for subsonic rounds and considering their intended use, long flight times are a bad thing. Leads to misses because the target easily and inadvertently steps out of the way after the trigger is pulled.
trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 12:53:23 (ZULU)

If I'm not mistaken I believe the 8 wheeled LAV's are built at the GM truck plant in Oshawa, Ontario.There was a recent automotive t.v. show segment featuring how these vehicles are built and tested.

FN FAL's:Australian and Canadian versions are arguably the best built rifles of this type.One very interesting,though little known,version is the trainor model .22LR .A few friends of mine used them while in the Army Cadet program many years ago.

Let's not forget the lessons that the Brits learned during Desert Storm.Eventhough it was considered old,out dated, and far too heavy,the FN FAL ended up replacing the state of the art Enfield bullpup (or,was that bullshit) rifle currently in service because of problems operating in a desert environment.

Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 15:34:18 (ZULU)

serri <'serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com'>
BKK, Thailand - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 15:57:48 (ZULU)

Sa Was Di Krupp. Sabai Di Mai? Dont' know if you can understand the phoneic attempt at the greeting. Spent many months in your fine country with 1st SFGA. The best flash hiders for a bolt gun .308 are full suppressors. Some wouldn't agree that they are necessary and that they change some things in the trajectory. Some cans do and others don't. The advantages gained in using a full suppressor far outweigh the disadvantages (only one i can think of is weight) OPSINC makes an excellent suppressor that is about 2.3 lbs.

The 3 prong type for the M-24 is trash, comes loose too easily and that thing getting loose disturbs the gas around the exiting bullet and causes some serious grouping problems. Good powder and loads are the best way to avoid flash at night. They are many ways to tune out the flash and have effective ammunition. Barrel length contributes to overcoming this also.

The standard bullet weight of the 7.62 Nato round is 147 grains. You can use the 155 Palma Sierra bullet as a mexican match alternative. Works pretty good and makes a damn decent 800 yard load. By any chance do you know Colonel Bunchu, ex commander of the Thai Rangers? I worked with your national rifle team for the AARM matches in 1995 when they took the AARM match.

Know the Tiger Den well, but personally i preferred Soi Cowboy. Take care, Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 17:43:57 (ZULU)

Dean, thanks and take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 17:52:39 (ZULU)

Have a safe and enjoyable fourth of July and remember that Independance was won at a cost!

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 17:53:52 (ZULU)

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 18:48:57 (ZULU)

For a great .308 subsonic factory load, contact Black Hills or Engle Ballistic Research. I just did a demo with the Engle 200 grain load using a factory Remington PSS fitted with a Gemtech can that printed 5 shot groups under 3/4" at 100 yards.

BTW, thanks for the bbl advise on the .300WM project, anyone have BlackStar contact info handy?

WIth the two-point mount suppressor, how has accuraccy been with the suppressor off? I'm concerned about the machining of the bbl and the stress relief on the bore. With the can providing tension, I know the rifle will actually shoot better, but what of length and weight or other operational considerations suggest removal of the can?

I'm trying to test out an OPS, Inc. system, but if anyone out there can provide some insight, thanks in advance.

Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 21:02:59 (ZULU)

Today I finally got around to doing this test. Had an old British Enfield in .303. It was given to me as a basket case by a gunsmith friend who was taken from us too early. He had tentatively planned on making a DeLisle Carbine out of it (.45 ACP, suppressed, used for sneaky stuff in WWII). He never got to finish it-- the way he went, and given where he'd been, I wonder sometimes if Agent Orange had a hand in it. Anyway.... I took it out to the irrigation pond behind the house. String, electrician's tape, and silicone goop were part of my kit. At the request of a Sniper Country reader, the first 4 rounds were fired with the bore sealed with tape at the muzzle and a bead of silicone at the base of the cartridge. I loaded the rifle and sunk it over a paper grocery bag to make sure that the muzzle was not in the muck. Touched 'er off with a string......PHOomph......reel 'er in.... no damage. Three more rounds this way, no damage. I then fired 4 more making sure the barrel was filled with water by submerging it with the bolt open and loading it underwater. PHOomph X 4, no apparent harm to the rifle, but I did get a few pierced primers. Those that didn't pierce showed slight, but not alarming, pressure signs. OK, says I, I am NOT taking you home in one piece. The last four rounds, same process, but I made sure the muzzle was well-jammed into the muck. Long story short, the rifle is drying on the back porch at this moment, ready for a hose-out with WD40 and apparently ready to go on with it's career. Now, I did not go so far as to check headspace before and after, but it sure seems fine. One interesting phenomenon was that the rounds fired with the muzzle in the muck resulted in empty cases coming out completely filled with muck. Hm. Would sure like to try this with a semi-auto. Anybody got a rusted, bent-barreled, shot-out SKS to donate? I'd be real interested to see if the thing will work with the gas system filled with water (it does in stupid Mel Gibson movies).
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Saturday, July 03, 1999 at 21:35:43 (ZULU)

I remember some years ago (1970s ?)that Soldier of Fortune or SWAT magazine did some underwater testing with the 1911 Colt. No harm was done to the handgun. The testing had something to do with underwater personal protection for SEALS.

As far as I know, your test is the first of its kind. Nice to see some original work.
Ron N.
Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 00:59:35 (ZULU)

Sabai De mak Krub!
Wow, your Thai is very impressive. A farang (foriegner) speaks like that around here could into a shot gun marriage quicker than an eye wink!
Sorry but the mentioned name didn't ring a bell. Barely knew any of the RTA team armory. I'm long retired before the RTA hosted the first AARM match in 1992. Col. Supin is in charge of the armoury. It is still the annual event to this day though. Before that I was just a lowly paid staff sergent clerk (S3) at the SFC in Lopburi with the fire power of a Remington typewriter. Ops...sorry, not meant to brag.
Has nothing to work on but a bunch of M80 with an old beat up Sako A1 to match up against RTA Sig-3000 with Scenar. Not a pretty sight but this ain't for a beauty contest.
want to chat long and some more but got to go. The librarian is watching if I might accidently stumble into those dirty net. I guess I overdid those accidents for today.

Serri, out in the sunny side of Lucy's Tiger Den, Thailand.

Serri <Serri_ls_lithy@yahoo.com>
BKK, Thailand - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 10:46:37 (ZULU)

Ned ( of the great pondwater specwar experimentation project )
hehe you are using a L O N G string? Keep postin the new results please.

Bolt.
It's simple: just get well dammit.
No, really, do drink lots of fluids (beer doesn't count) and max out on your vitimans and minerals! hope you get to feeling better soon!

All,
Have a happy 4th. Think of what the day is ment to celebrate.
It was the sacrifice of people like you and me that made this country
as free as it is today. Think about it. No real organized army won this country. Average folks did, with above average desire.
Screw Thanksgiving day, Appriciate what you have TODAY.

on a side note, I appriciate all you active duty persons doing what you are for me and our country. If you have any specific questions about any benefits you may be able to receive after you become a Veteran, please feel free to contact me.

buk off the soapbox.
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
WetSweatinDamnHotIn, Louisiana, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 12:15:43 (ZULU)

OOOPSS! Botched the first post - will try again.

Get some locally made honey. Make this honey part of your regular diet. We use honey on toast just about every morning. You will develop immunity to most of the pollen based allergies. It won't happen overnight but it appears to work. I know any MD's out there will probably cringe at reading this. AND NO YOU CAN'T SUE ME IF IT DOESN'T WORK OR PRODUCES ANY WIERD SIDE EFFECTS - LIKE MAKING YOUR 100 YARD GROUPS SPREAD FARTHER APART.

ON BUGS:
get some cayenne and garlice supplements - will make you (especially when sweating) - taste really bad to all but the most desperate bugs.

BOLT:
man - if you survive working in that emergency room - you will have developed some serious immunities. On a serious note check out an herb called Echinacia Goldenseal. This is supposed to help your immune system work alot more efficiently. Of course don't forget saying your prayers, good diet and exercise.

Treat this stuff like reloading data - read up on it yourself and go from there.

NO WE'RE NOT DRUGGIES AND NOT INTO VOODOO EITHER. We do grow alot of herbs and dried flowers as a side business (no wacky weed either).

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:28:59 (ZULU)

Yes, you are talking about point blank zero. I worked up some data for you. You didn't mention your load combination so i'm posting a few different possibilities.

Sight height is part of the equation for PBZ, so i'll assume your's is 2.0" above barrel centerline.

The diameter of the Kill Zone is important. This is the dimension in inches above and below the point of aim on your target. I used a 10" Kill Zone diameter. Meaning, when aiming at one certain point, your round will strike somewhere 5" high to 5" low of your aiming point.

For the 135 Gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 3000 fps. Using a ballistic co-efficient of .450 from Sierra.

Zero the Gun at 310 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 364 yards.

For the 135 Gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 2900 fps.

Zero the Gun at 300 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 353 yards.

For the 140 gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 3000 fps. Using a ballistic co-efficient of .360 from Sierra.

Zero the gun at 303 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 355 yards.

For the 140 gr. Sierra Matchking at a velocity of 2900 fps.

Zero the gun at 293 Yards.
Your max range for striking a 10" KZ is 343 yards.

There is another way of employing this technique. Using the last piece of information above. If you know that your range to your target is probably more than the max of 343 yards, simply place your point of aim at the top of the backbone of the target (for big game) If you are a military sniper, shift the point of aim to the face and you push you range out to about 500 yards using the same method.

Hope this helps you, take care.

Dean

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:33:38 (ZULU)

About the 173 grain M118 rounds. There were years when it was pretty good and years when it sucked horribly. Send me the lot # if you can and i'll find out for you the quality of that particular lot.

Alot of guys have slammed the M118 round. I have been specifically shooting that round for 14 years now in any variation of 7.62mm shooting military sniper rifles and it solely depends on the lot. From what I have observed, this may be coincidental, but the bad lots of M118 are the only ones that get out on the open market. The good M118 stays in the military system. That's just a personal observation and may be way off base.

Alot of competition shooters that are military guys use the 118 round for practicing their position shooting and grouping. Once the capability of the round is established from the bench, they strive to obtain that same level of precision in the sling in the different positions.

That round may not be great but we were able to rely on it enough to demand 7 for 10 hits on a moving target at 3 different speeds to a range of 400 yards, on a target that is 9" wide. SOTIC guys that went through 1st groups program will remember this.

On snap engagments at 200, 300, and 400 yards, it was head shots only and in 3 seconds at all ranges. Precision usually wasn't a problem with this drill. Not a big fan of M118, but it's not all that bad. The new 118 Long Range is the shit though. Still I think Lapua 185 grain loads are superior to both. Used those all over Asia, very good stuff. In the M-24 when shooting against M118 and M852 the Lapua just smoke the two rounds in long range shooting.

Damn, long winded again, sorry guys, remember why Independance Day is what it is.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:42:46 (ZULU)

Sawasdee Krupp, Phom kidwaa phom jah pai prahted Thailand, phom mai mee phanraya. :(

Good to hear back from you. I remember Lopburi well, was involved in a couple of Cobra Golds out of there. Last one was in 94.

So the boys there are using the 300 and Scenar now? Is that the 170 gr. or 185 gr. bullets? About the shotgun wedding, don't sound like a bad idea to be honest, not much a fan of American women these days. Phuying Thai pen dii maag le suuay maag. Damn, i hope that comes across okay with all the tone stuff in your language.

take care and don't hang out at Lucy's too much.

Buk,

Currently we are market researching the subject. Location will be in Western New Mexico. Concept is to get .50 cal builders to sponsor the course with different rifles and some .338 Lapua magnum guns also. Ammo and weapons will be provided in the cost of tuition. Approximate course length is going to be 14 days, but that's not solid in the air yet.

One option for those not able to go for 14 days is to pay a lower tuition rate and attend the first week only. This is an advanced long range (out to 1600 yards) course. A shooter need NOT be a graduate of a previous course to attend, but it would help. For those who are interested, we may provide a package of reading material in the form of a book as a primer to the course.

This would help get a guy up to speed on some of the more technical and mathematical aspects of the training. Most likely candidate for the time frame is the spring. More to follow as details become available.

Take care, Dean

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 15:58:04 (ZULU)

The Undude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 16:45:19 (ZULU)

Good uck if ebay will allow the sale of the loaded ammo to be compleated. They have turned into politicaly correct turd heads where things regaurding firearms are concerned.

Thanks to all who helped with the freedom we enjoy. Your sacrifices are remembered every day. not just the fourth.
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
ks, USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 18:11:59 (ZULU)

I signed up to use a web email service. Basically it would set up a web based email service using my domain name. In the end I decided not too but I received this email today -

"Michael,

We have limited the access to our service in an effort to make it attractive to the largest possible group of partner sites. Unfortunately, we've had to exclude certain types of content in order to achieve this. We currently feel that any site that promotes/contains/focuses on pornographic/racist/libelous/illegal materials/gambling/alcohol/tobacco/firearms does not meet the requirements for access to our service because too many people may find it objectionable.

We appreciate your interest in our service, and we're sorry that we can't accept your site at this time because it violates our agreement.

Sincerely,

John P. Foster
Partner Consultant
Everyone.net
25 North First Street
San Jose, CA 95113
Ph: (408) 279-5900 ext. 211
Fax: (408) 283-9077
mailto:jfoster@everyone.net http://www.everyone.net "

Firearms obejectionable? Sounds pretty dumb to me. Well feel free to send a nice email to them.

Harry Merkin <hmerkin@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 19:33:44 (ZULU)

Tried to send a blistering response to what you wrote below. The website came back as non-deliverable.. No surprise there. That's the same thing the Violence Prevention Center does when they want to lay low for a while.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 19:46:50 (ZULU)

In preparations for my tour i havent had the time to respond in the way i would have liked here on the Duty Roster.
I see i've missed a lot of good new subjects, such as the ;"To Fal or not to Fal, thats the question..." or the shooting fun about differences in speed at different altitudes, or the newer ;"What happens if i shoot my 6000$ sniperrifle underwater, besides me getting a heartache...".

Furthermore i've heard all the stories and seen all the pictures from my bud stefan about how it has been on SMTC , all i can say is, you lucky basterds!

To all; i would like it very much if some of you would write me, now and then, so i can keep myself updated on the great info i'll be missing here on the Roster, and from time to time i hope ill be able to post a message on the Roster through my dear friend Stefan (That is if its ok with you Stefan, :), forgot to ask you this ,lol).

My adress to respond to will be;
Hi, since im off to kosovo for 6 months, i wont be on the net anymore , but i would like it very much if we could stay in touch now and then by mail.
My post adress for kosovo will be ;

Plug
71.02.10.230
Sergeant
1(NL) infcie K-FOR
1(NL) GN hulpbat K-FOR
napo 58
3509 VP Utrecht
The Netherlands

To Torsten; Stefan is wright, the graves are a must-see in normandy both the german and the alied ones, along with point-du-hoc, where the rangers led the bloody way, most of the bunkers are still in one peace, sort of.It will make any soldier think of the job he has chosen.

To Chris; to bad its a nato operation, because i would have liked it very much to meet your aussie and New-Sealand troops again, like with the UN ops in bosnia.

To Stefan; stay of the booz and leave the sheep alone!!

Hope to hear/read from y'all soon and see y'all in 6 months back on the Roster.

Yours truly,

Mcnab aka Marco

Nec Temere Nec Timide

McNab <Sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, July 04, 1999 at 20:50:34 (ZULU)

Recon, I'm a construction engineer but I do have my EMT, BTLS and Hazmat Specialist certs. Working on getting Rescue cert. I'm also on reserve with SORT(Special Operations Response Team) under FEMA and the NDMS.

Lake City 173's were loose bullets only, the last price wias something like $23 per 100. Didn't know if the were special or not!

Mcnab, keep your head down and watch out for them sheeps!

TOMORROW......I will definitely get the 300 mag vs. 308 thing going again, if the fever didn't effect me brain too bad.

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 01:51:32 (ZULU)

$23 a hundred is a hell of a lot of money for 173's when you can get Sierra Matchkings for $18-20 a hundred... I've seen 173's in the Shotgun News, for $8 a hundred, which makes it worth it for practice, but if you can't get them for that price, then get new MatchKings for $18-20, they will shoot circles around the 173's

Pablito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 02:25:21 (ZULU)

Depity Dave: Good to hear your voice on the phone yesterday, and I'm sorry I completely forgot to congatulaty you on Independance Day. How thoughtless of me!

Torsten: Met Gert saturday on the range but he didn't have my shorts. I've been sweating my ass off yesterday! Hope to see him again soon. I gave Gert the money for Reinhart, so call off those Dobermanns! So, I take it from your post to Gooch that Reinharts rifle has been painted? What did he put on it? Smiley-faces? I introduced KIMS-games to the reserves here. Must have been as funny for Rod/Gooch/Dave as it was for me! They sang Jingle-Bells quite good though!

Bolt: McNab knows to leave the sheep in Kosovo alone. The Serbs knew he was coming and boobytrapped all their fannies! Oh, good to see yu're feeling better, I'm starting to feel worse! If you mention the word .300 WM today, I'll sedn you the worst e-mail virus I can find!

Ned: Thanks man! You finally gave me an excuse to get my scuba-gear out again. Never had the money available to buy one of those harpoon-rifles, but now it turns out I've always had a super alternative around! Any word on group size at a 100 yd. underwater target? :-)

Chris: Any FAL not made in Herstal belgium is a COPY! I'm kind of an FN-freak, so to see the way you commonwealth people have maimed the FAL kinda hurts me. Folding charging-handles, funky flash-hiders, awefull pistol-grips (at least on the British L1A1's)... I have a very old !!!FN!!!-FAL and I consider it top notch!
I had the chance to get my hands on one of those L85A1's Jeff mentioned. What a piece of crap!!!! The mag-well was to narrow to allow the use of standard NATO M-16 mags, I cut my hand on the little hatch covering the chanrging-handle-slot (never mind, the Brittish Sgt. said, they break off after a days use) and the rifle literally CAME APPART when shooting it. After a couple of hundred rounds though each of the 4 we had available they QUIT and nobody could get them going again. Oh, BTW, this was at the RANGE, not in the DESERT!!!!!

Take care y'all!

Stefan
GUN CONTROL IS ABOUT USING BOTH HANDS!!!

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 07:21:11 (ZULU)

Unfortunately I can't afford them, but there are some good looking IOR-Valdata binocs at EBAY. Look here.

L8er!

Stefan

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 08:07:41 (ZULU)

Those seem to be real-deal Former East German Zeis-Jenna binocs, not IORs. I have both the 7x40 and 10x50 IORs; fundamentaly different configuration. I dont know which are superior, if any. The eBay item you linked is a very good value, though. Last I looked those went for well over $100 more than the current bid price.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet45@usit.net>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 14:06:50 (ZULU)

You can see it at http://rosie.acmecity.com/merriment/131

I even linked To Sniper Country and My Favorite training place, Storm Mountain Training Center!

Check it out! you can get 20 meg of FREE space too!

Click on my name to go there now...I will be updating sooooon!

Listen to TokyoRosie sprout her anti-gun propaganda!! Rosie thinks ALL gun owners should GO TO PRISON.

Check out www.fulton-armory.com..you can get your free web space there! Help Walt bury Rosie.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 14:54:40 (ZULU)

I am looking for a professional to do an independant evaluation of the tactical data books that I have developed and mentioned on this site a couple of times. Some of the guys here have bought them.

Ultimately I would ask this review to be submitted to the Review section of Sniper Country's website. Any takers? Contact me email please. Set of data books goes for free and a signed agreement is necessary to proceed. Thanks.

Here is the description once again. These tables are hand calculated specialized data tables. The tables I have are for common military calibers. .50, 338 Lapua, .300 Magnum and the .308. The tables for .308 are for M118 Special Ball, and Special Ball Long Range, and 168 gr. at 2600,2650,2700 and 2750 fps and M80 Ball (147 gr. bullet @ 2750 fps).

Individual caliber sets are available without buying the entire set. The entire set is a much better deal at 125.00, however each caliber set is 25.00. For example, a set of M118, M118 Long Range and M80 Ball 7.62mm military and .308 tables would be 50.00. The .50 caliber tables alone are 50.00 because there is much more data. If you are interested specifically in the .50 tables, they have all 5 standard military rounds "Greentip" Mark 211, MOD-0, M8 API, M33 Ball, M20 APIT, and M903 slap data.

These tables is highly refined and very accurate tables that give elevations in minutes of angle, elevation settings per 100 meters, remaining velocities, spin drift, flight times, angle of fall, danger space and wind deflection in inches, Mils, and Minutes of Angle. This data has been proven with many different .50 caliber rifles and other sniper weapons systems in many worldwide environments.

What makes these more accurate than any table generated by computer or on the market is that a different and precise ballistic co-efficient is used every 100 meters. There are based on live firings and the data corrected to standard atmospheric conditions. Therefore the times of fight that are used in the windage formulas are more accurate. Computer models use an average over a certain range. This contains many errors as velocities and data around the trans-sonic flight range will be in gross error.

These tables ARE NOT REACTIVE as are other "data books" that are on the market. They are designed so that the sniper can correct for all meteorological and environmental conditions the sniper may shoot in. Furthermore, more data can be developed as requested.

The tables are sent with a 70 page instruction book that not only teaches the use of the tactical tables but is a short course on exterior ballistics and precision zero techniques that correctly tune these tables to the gun/ammunition system for advanced sniper applications. The tables are printed on card stock (5 x 7") format.

They are inserted in a very strong and flexible vinyl page that is similar to a document protector and are bound together with 5 ea. 1" rings. The cover is a BDU camouflage heavy vinyl. These are the same as the USAF flight crew manifest checklist booklet. You can see the book insert i am using at www.pdipueblo.com go to the vinyl products section. The cost of this option is 15.00 per book set.

Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 15:37:33 (ZULU)

Ron N-- I remember hearing about the SOF test. They also did it at one of the conventions in Vegas-- in the hotel pool-- and had a little problem with the manager I'm told. If I was there that year, I missed it.... I'd love to give that a try but am not ready to risk one of my cherished 1911's. Will keep my eye out for something expendable (...anybody..?). Saw a nice old Devel Gammon compensated .45 auto blow yesterday at a steel match. Double charge we presumed, barrel and slide totalled.

Buk-- The lanyard was not all that long but I made sure not to stand directly behind the rifle! Each time I fired it, it moved about 3 feet through the water from the recoil.

Stefan-- Scuba divin' with an Enfield, hm... leave the weight belt home. Judging by the sound at the surface, I'm thinking the report underwater, as long as it is directed away, would not be dangerous, even though the speed of sound through water is much faster.

With the interest in this, I now feel kinda obligated to go a little further (damn you all). Think I'll make a cradle that will hold the rifle aimed at a steel plate say 3' or 6' from the muzzle and shoot it submerged. See what kind of penetration I get (and group size?), and extrapolate velocity from it maybe, by comparing underwater penetration to "air" penetration at various distances until they match, then figure what the velocity at that "air" distance would be.

Don't expect this tomorrow! Comments, suggestions, questions and subjects for diabolical experiments welcome. Post and Email, please, as I'm pretty busy in the shop and can't always monitor SC as much as I'd like.....

Thanks-- Ned
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
3R, MI, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 16:08:29 (ZULU)

Having email problems here. Mine go out, none can come in...I hope to hell our computer guy isn't in charge of any Y2K programming "fixes"...well, I take that back. Then the world would have sympathy for my problems:)

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 16:18:28 (ZULU)

Send me an email...Varget rules... testing new pc w/ cable modem

Hope everyone's had a good 4th.

Rented and watched SPR again... so powerful a film. Hit just as hard as the first time a I saw it on the big screen.

Good to be alive and living in the USA
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
smyrna, ga, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 19:14:24 (ZULU)

Going back to hunting, a good COLD weather sport. Don't know why any human would want to fight a war in heat like this. Looks like the people would get hot, call it quits and have a beer together instead!

Hot tub + Crown Royal + redhead = near drowning. Ned, be extrememly careful with pentration under water. Damn near drowned one night from it a couple of years ago. LOL LOL LOL

Too delerious to bring up 300 mag thing. You lucked out Stephan.

By the way, forgot to say &^*((^$@#%&*(^% M3 scope. Ah for the days of 1/4 clicks. Sherrie, give me another valium with that beer!

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 21:26:12 (ZULU)

Get well friend,

AND STAY OUT OF THE HEAT!!

You'll end up going postal SPECIAL DELIVERY on the local grasshoppers or ground squirrels!

Stay cool folks

Chao for now!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
HOT-HOT CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 21:31:53 (ZULU)

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 21:39:03 (ZULU)

You lucky Bas*$#%. A redhead, hottub, daaammmmmnnnnnnnnn...... be like i'd died and went somewhere. Not sure where that's going to be yet.

Take care, don't overheat.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4641@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 05, 1999 at 23:24:28 (ZULU)

Does anyone have a AICS stock fitted to a M700 PSS DM?

If so has it performed satisfactorily?

Thanks in advance.
Darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 02:35:40 (ZULU)

Going back to off hand positions, been practicing the cross leg sitting position, as was a topic a while back, sitting for 15 minutes and shooting 10 shots at an 8 1/2 x 11 target with a 2" dot, with a sporting weight rifle it is easy to steady and hit the the target at 350 yds with consistency, but with a heavy SWS rifle it is difficult to steady the weight forward barrel. Tried shifting weight forward, backward ETC. but still find it difficult to hold steady with consistency. Any training techniques (ie breathing, pressure against a body part, timing, etc) to overcome this shortcoming?

It was mentioned about carrying a sidearm on the left side by a right hand shooter or in an SOB position, is this just as a piece of gear or do you practice any kind of quick retieval from this position. Any special type of holster?

You just have to love practicing and getting a good workout in this 100+ degree weather. Hey at 6 in the morning it's 90 degrees and that 5 mile run just makes you feel how good it is to be getting older by the day. Makes the beer worth while.

Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 04:52:34 (ZULU)

The one thing that I'm not to sure about was that a long bullet (190gr-200gr-210gr-220gr-240gr .30 cal) might not be stabilize at 100 yds. even with the correct twist rate....
So if this is true then ANY load work @100yds. with any long bullet would be a waste of time........

I've heard this said many times around my shooting circle but I thought it was one of those things that, people don't know what they are talking about.......But the individual that I was talking to surely knew his stuff.....( Hey Charlie )

My mind only operates on a simple level, so it would seem to me that if a bullet exits the muzzle of your rifle in an unstabilized state or even becomes unstabile in flight some were, how can it improve with any distance..............

--------------------------------------------BigGunn---------------------------------------------------

BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country...were the mountain isn't high enought to get out of this Dam heat!!.....in..., Pa., USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 05:03:48 (ZULU)

Any help would be apperciated.............BigGunn.......................

Dam Hot BigGunn <Meghan@penn.com>
Smoken Hot Mtn. Country in the brown state of....., Pa., USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 05:20:53 (ZULU)

the above is a direct quote from the Arnold sales lit...
The 180 grandslam had a BC of .41 and in Nitrex is loaded to 2950 fps. There is a pic of the rifle, it's a sporter with at most a #5 barrel, and a wood stock. The "1000 yard target" is a standard NRA style 50 yard small bore target with something like 8-10" of black. anyone know of this guy? isn't that a 1000 yard BR record? other...comments?

gee, if their hunting rifles shoot like this, imagine what their tac rifles will do...
Jimbo <J@jimbosguns.com>
CO, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 06:23:14 (ZULU)

On "Larry W. Lindsey's" amazing feats of shooting... they are truely amazing.

The world record at 1000 yds is 3.1" with a gun that needs two people to carry, using the best bullets the benchrest world has to offer, not hunting bullets.

And on the scope he shoots with... IF (and thats a big IF...) he set up the scope with tapered bases, so that the 100 yd zero was at the bottom of the elevation dial, and he wasted no clicks of elevation... his maximum range would be about 850 yds. The B&L 6x24 is a fine scope, but has the shortest elevation range of any scope on the market... a total of 24 moa from top to bottom... he would need 35 moa with that cartridge to make 1000 yds, and 110 moa to do his water jug trick, and 110 moa is available in only two over the counter scopes... the 16x Leupold MK4-M1, and the B&L 10x Tactical.

Of course he might have pulled the trigger VERY hard...

Pablito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 10:16:59 (ZULU)

God I HATE marketing hype!

Off to broil at harpers ferry with da toursists.

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 13:08:17 (ZULU)

Pablito,
"He don't need no stinking mil dots or dials to hit at 1650yds because he's probably a "MASTER SNIPER".

Steve,
If you have a M3 LR try the 30-06 cam with the 175s I think you will find them to be pretty close or do like I did for my 260 mark off and paint the top half of the dial and then scribe in your own numbers it works great or just use the MOAs on the bottom if its the M3 LR.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 13:12:46 (ZULU)

The UnDude/Mike
MikeM. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 16:08:55 (ZULU)

The AICS system works FANTASTIC!!!!! It's expensive (around $600 dealer cost for standard, $1200 dealer for collapsible--I just recieved a green colored standard stock last week....Momma was good to me for my birthday.....) The action attaches to an Aluminum bedding piece that runs from the buttstock to about 10 inches forward of the chamber. The stock is divided longitudally along the bore axis and is "sandwiched" around the metal. (sounds ugly but it is ohhhhhh so sexy.....) My PSS was a non-detachable mag type...but the stock comes with a 5 rd. detachable box mag... All I had to do was remove the guide piece and Voila!..... I picked up 2 extra mags at about 50 apiece...... Be advised this Stock is hhhhhheavy......I would not want to have to stalk with it... I dont know exact weight but it feels significantly heavier than a Mcmillan and a &*%#pot heavier than a H.S. Precision. The barrel channel is enormous!!! It also has an integral (Anschutz type) accesory rail, a Parker-Hale attachment point and a Harris attachment point. Molded in buttstock hook, four sling swivel points....yada yada yada.....I am obviously not a salty-sniper type like some of the esteemed jedi that frequent this site but all i can tell you is the first time I shot the gun with this stock I had to change my drawers...... You really ought to check one out and see for yourself. Had to sweet-talk talk my chief for permission to put it on but it was worth it......

Mike Kirn <mkirn@hotmail.com>
Zebulon, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 21:05:15 (ZULU)

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 21:17:38 (ZULU)

In autozone last evening, see they carry 4 colors of "camo" paint. Black, tan, brown, green. $5 per.

Shot 12 shots into about 1.5 inches @ 1,475 meters today with subsonic 22lr ammo. Is that good? Would have been tighter, but got a flier mid way through. :)

Old Dog [Master of nothing worthwhile]

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 06, 1999 at 21:54:59 (ZULU)