Sniper Country Duty Roster

July 2007

'Lito and other Brit Bike Fans

www.nortonhogslayer.com

UnPat

UnPat
Very Tired, USA - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 00:35:18 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Do you guys have 'strike anywhere' matches out your way? I can't seem to find any in CO. Ohio Blue Tips are the best.

Duman
Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 01:48:07 (ZULU)

Sarge....just went to Natchez and they're showing the refurbs for $209, and they're out of stock.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 02:31:31 (ZULU)

Duman,

Was that by way of wagon train? ;-))

My mail server has been know to be very sporadic. I'm sure the file will be here within the next week or so. Don't you just love the new AT&T??

Thanks,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 05:37:56 (ZULU)

JC,

Just try to cancel a service with AT&T/Yahoo. They'll argue with you endlessly, put you on hold indefinitely, etc.. I'm gonna advise them I'm recording the conversation next time, then let them know I'll be contacting a lawyer for harassment proceedings if they continue to fuck with me.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 07:48:11 (ZULU)

Click my name to see some guys gaining instant(unforgettable) wisdom.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:29:35 (ZULU)

This one gives some insight on the previous.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 09:39:51 (ZULU)

Travis,

SBC/Yahell...Been there,done that.At our previous residense we had SBC DSL,Their service was marginal,and when we decided to move to our present location we ran into all sorts of problems...We are to far from the hub for DSL...Even tho we contacted them and gave them the address to run a check to see if DSL was available,the contact on the other end assured us DSL WAS available at the address...Two years later,it STILL isnt available....

And then we were issued a phone number that was still active under someone else's account...The kids would call and leave a message,only to have the message deleted...and we got the other guys messages...I could dial the home number from work and get an adult male voice on the phone...And I AM the only adult male that lives here....Thinkin somethin was happening at home,I would call the house number from a cell phone and still get the adult male's voice while I was sitting at my own desk...Numerous calls to them to straighten things out,they would come out and find nothing wrong...This went on for 3 months.Finally we stopped payin the phone bill.We informed them when they could and would provide the service we agreed too,We would pay them.Havent heard a word from them in 2 years.And we now use the Road Runner One service....Phone,internet,cable on one bill....My condolances to those that still have to suffer with the phone company's crap.Soo glad I have one less frustration to deal with now.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 16:32:49 (ZULU)

4x4 country,

Looks like al quaeda likes Jeeps. They didn't do their homework though, Jeeps apparently don't do too well ramming thru airport entrance barriers..Killed the engine before making the destination, typical Jeep. But I reckon they should've stayed in the Jeep, as even though it was on fire, would have been safer inside than the Glaswegian public standing outside the entrance..Al Qaeda got an ass kicking on Saturday, Glasgee style, HA!

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 16:44:26 (ZULU)

JC,

I sent the email/file immediately after my post. If you don't see it today, i'll copy it into 'word' format, then resend. Maybe if I send it from my work email.....?

I made the mistake of trying to install some 'Yahoo' application on my computer. It took over my system, like a plague, and now I can't 'uninstall' the damned stuff. It's worse than a virus.

Found a source for 'strike anywhere's'. Apparently they're illegal in some states.

Duman
Sunday, July 1, 2007, at 19:13:35 (ZULU)

Duman,

Just in case I made a type it's JerryLCopelandATbellsouthDOTnet.

Just put the correct symbols where they need to be. But I ain't tellin' you anything ya don't already know.

Thanks,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, July 2, 2007, at 04:38:22 (ZULU)

All -- PISTOL RAFFLE IS LIVE!!! This one's for our American Snipers... Be sure to stop by.

CHECKOUT: http://www.pistolraffle.com

or click on my name.

Take care

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Monday, July 2, 2007, at 11:56:27 (ZULU)

Ticket bought.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Monday, July 2, 2007, at 14:27:28 (ZULU)

Ahhh Good to be back i the good ol USA again. Just got back from a gig in Romania. I forgot how much I hate those long flights.

Saw nothing but Muslims in the airport in Amsterdam. Even the damn ticket agents. GEEZ!

Well anyway, I finally got to Transylvania and seen Bran Castle. Dracula was not home.

I must say the mountains there are beautiful.

The Romanians are loving their freedom very much. I saw capitalism booming in the cities. Just five years, there is a huge difference.

Oh well, needed to check in. Hope all here are fine. Back to the grindstone.

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, July 2, 2007, at 15:45:34 (ZULU)

Duman, I hadn't seen too much of that myself, but that sounds right-o. And here all this time I thought dilbert was written by someone with a cubicle in the same building I used to work in! If you need to be ‘set up’ with good matches, let me know. I buy them at the local Sportsmans Whorehouse. Actually, Albertsons had a close-out on off-brand strike-anywhere matches, so I got ‘em all (enough to do years and years) but SW does carry blue tip.

CDC, could be you have a winner there, I hope so. In my past, I’ve had problems with stoves tumping over when least expected (I pawned it off as the biscuits had ‘ground pepper’ on them – and it was true, it was GROUND pepper LOL!) so a comparative stability rating would be appreciated too! When I changed over to Nalgene bottles, I got stainless steel canteen cups that nest on the bottles as well. They’re good to go. Should have gotten titanium, but man that’s high dollar gear.

Steve, sounds right! I picked Bub up almost midnight on Saturday, he didn’t get his pig, but he had quite a good time trying between rainstorms. Won't be long before I can get him his deer license here (GRIN). I'm just going to learn from others, and not buy a Remmie model 7 right off the bat LOL!

Jim, I ran the 30-06 dial at BadLands, same as I've been running for a while. Here's the funky of it.... I built these rounds to get the muzzle velocity right where it was before, this time changing to Lapua brass. So far, so good. What was tracking the 30-06 dial perfectly here though (on the old stuff, I didn't verify anything other than grouping and velocity with the new stuff, ran out of time due to SCOPE RING FAILURE!!!), wound up being flatter shooting in Okie-homie. I needed to take off 1/2 MOA at 300 to 500, a full MOA at 600 and 700, then 2 MOA from 800 on to 1K. And no, I can't explain it. I don't know if my balance got bumped between calibration verifications (but I highly doubt that), it was the elevation, heat, humidity, air density or what, but it appears these rounds were hotter. Certainly flatter. Now add another factor in: I punched one primer out there. The primer didn't pierce, but it sure did come out. On later examination, it appears there was some trace leakage on some of the other empties as well. I don't know if it's a Winchester primer in Lapua brass thing, a gasgun thing, or a chamber pressure thing, but it IS a thing that needs to be fixed! So I figure that I'll verify that my average velocity really is 2681 fps (what I chronoed before) and that it shoots that flat here. If so, I need to back off the charge (if it's the same velocity, I need to go to a slower dial) or just use Varget and forget about 'improvement'. BTW, the Varget gave me a bit more oprod bump than the H4895, that's why I opted to go with the 4895. Not bad, but I thought I'd save wear and tear when possible.

Truck Country: my folks retired and sold their home many years ago. The money from that sale upgraded (traded in on new) the RV and truck - they live where they want to live in the spring, summer, and fall, traversing the country. Then back to 'the land of no snow' for winters. The Ford Dad bought now has a slew of miles on it (to the point that he's now putting off major PM 'cause the idea is to trade it off at the end of the year) and the only failures I can remember were when some kind of animal (literally here) chewed through part of the wiring harness that included wires to the crankshaft position sensor when they were out in the middle of nowhere, and the multi-switch on the turn signal (lights, high-low beams, and all that other crap on the handle) gave way giving them no headlights. Dad wired in a jake-brake (exhaust brake) when it was new, and threw the GearVendors (http://www.gearvendors.com/) under/over drive from the previous truck (really!) and went to it. I was driving this rig going over St.Augustine pass between 'Cruces and WSMR - it never cared in the least about the incline or load, and the RV he's got on there is the longest made in that style. Care to guess what brand of truck he'll buy when he trades this one off?

Bravo
Monday, July 2, 2007, at 19:25:10 (ZULU)

Bravo,

In my 300WM using Lapua brass I found I was getting pressure signs before I would've expected them with my old W-W brass. I've also noted that looking at primer 'flatness' as a sign of pressure doesn't work with the (my) Lapua brass. I was getting a sticky bolt and the primers looked perfect.

Heres a question you may be able to help with. I have limited temperature data for my current load and was hoping to be able to extrapolate what data I do have to cover temperatures I'm not likely to see all that often or for another 6 months. Heres the question, does velocity variance due to powder temperature change at a uniform rate, say 'x'fps per 10 degrees, or does the amount of change vary, i.e. the hotter it gets the more the variance difference over a 10 degree temp change?

Cheers

Jon

P.S. I'm using RL22

Jon Beardsely
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Monday, July 2, 2007, at 20:12:03 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Thx, and good job for bubba. give him a hi-5.\

sorry for the poor typing, just had a bicycle accident, jammed another finger. with all these spl;ints, i'm looking like edward scissor-hands.

JC, file was sent ~5 mins ago. I copied and pasted your name, subbed the @ and . maybe the L is wrong? :8-p

Duman
Monday, July 2, 2007, at 21:40:00 (ZULU)

Jon re:temperature data

You can also use a cooler and ice to chill your ammunition

(in a plastic bag to keep out the water) to get lower temperature field data too.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 01:13:25 (ZULU)

Duman and 'CDC,

Got the file, but like CDC I only got the data. I think it has something to do with the error msg that comes up when the excel file is opened. It states that "One or more worksheets in this workbook have names that contain square brackets:[]. To avoid unexpected results when referencing these worksheets, remove the any square brackets from their names."

But thanks for all the data. ;-))

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 05:24:24 (ZULU)

Jon: try working up a load with Varget, it's hardly temp sensitive at all, at least at temps you can shoot in without stroking out. If you do want to keep ammo in a cooler, just use blue ice blocks, no water involved. You only have to keep it at morning ambient temps, not colder'n a tax collector's heart.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 07:02:44 (ZULU)

Looks like I'm actually beating BK to the punch here.

Guys, a raffle just opened up for the benefit of AmericanSnipers.org. How'd ya like a stab at a top-end custom 1911 for $10? No? OK, what if it came with a few extras, like oh, maybe a Chris Reeve knife, Loopy 10X50 binocs, a case o' Black Hills ammo, Safariland duty rig and a custom sharkskin concealment rig from Alex Nossar, a mini-Rifle Rest from CenterMasss, a Starlight case, a decommissioned flag, cleaning and maint. gear, some classes with Henk Iverson (if the winner is police or military), and a sh'load of other stuff? And this 1911 is no slouch-- it's cycling though most of the LTW shops (Louder Than Words, a consortiom of custom 'smiths who specialize in the 1911)and is being built as a hard-knocks duty pistol. The whole package is being put together as if it were going to ship out with one of AmericanSnipers.org's own.

Check it out at

http://www.pistolraffle.com

Edit: hut-ho, I was reading from the top down, I see Ken beat me to it!

Ned Christiansen
Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 15:03:41 (ZULU)

FN SPR Gen I: Love the riffle. I love the pre-64 style Mod 70 action, I love the barrel despite the 1:12 twist limits, I love the HS stock--

But I hate the damned FN magazine with a passion. The feed lips "center" cartridges, and the pinch means that the only way to place additional rounds is to drop and replace with another 100-plus dollar 4 rounder, or remove and shove the round in front to rear. I was able to feed one in the chamber, and replace it for a 5 round string fairly quickly---but that SCLE my wife was using made that process simplistic in comparison. I guess i got jealous.

CDC: Still working--no, make that "project on hold"--on the reloading room. Final drywall prep, shelf hanging, door mounting is left before I start setting up the presses.

Peanut's new-found love of western riding and barrel racing has me landscaping for a new arena and travelling to shows with all that entails...the wife's conspircy to keep me thin, i suppose. This, and all the other damned honey-do's kept me out of the basement project

1/4 mil footballs are helpful if a gen II is not in your scope. NF's MLR reticle is bright sun is betterer than genII IMHO. Wish i had three or four of the nightforce scopes. Of course, the cheeckrest would need another foam insert...50mm might not workie in the rings I am running. It'd be real, real close.

Side note: Listen to the rants against the commutation of Libby's sentence. Read the wording of why people find this objectionable. Christ almighty, if these comments don't cement the case for "political prosecutions"---nothing will. We used to bag on the Soviets for their political prisoners and prosecutions. How far we have fallen from our ideals...Notice that I did not say that the underlying charges were false, only the arguments made now (and by the judge at sentencing) as to why Libby should be in jail are purely political and side squarely on charges never brought to court. Reid said it best: (paraphrased) "this was an opportunity to hold this administration accountable for their conduct" Hmmm. Now there's an interesting take on justice if ever there was one. And this clown swore an oath to the constitution?

Bravo: I agree completely with the charges and sentence for such conduct....wink.

editied to add: Scope focusing! I thought they were OK...but by loosening the lock ring and playing with it at various ranges and conditions, I fine tuned it to many turns out from where it was. That surprised me (so much adjustment)--and what a diff it made overall. I guess i got used to the slow fade as my eyes fail over time...and just assumed it was supposed to be this way. Only issue now is the focus is set with my shooting glasses (new grind)--and these are now mandatory.

Joe M
Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 16:34:43 (ZULU)

Ok, Now that the 4th is almost here, I would like to say thanks to all those that served. However the bad side of this is I feel the rags will start something here in this country on that date. They have targeted places in the UK recently. And now it is our turn again. Do not let your guards down and be aware that secondary devises are all way possible. This will either move the country to the right or bitch slap it to the left. In the case of the latter we are screwed.

JoeM, Is Peanut doing Western Pleasure (competitive) or just trail riding? I trail ride an Old Barrel horse. She is only 10yrs. The person I got here from wants me to continue but it just don't look right a guy riding in that event. I know a guy that does because he rides a nice(fast) horse and wins the jackpots. But that aint fer me. My horse can scoot across the pasture though.

Libby? They fuss at the President for what he did. What a crock. Look at the criminals Clinton pardoned. Hell, I bet he was paid handsomely for them. He pardoned Mark Rich, the guy owed millions to the IRS in Taxes. Monet that could have bought our troops alot of tools for thier trade. I don't even think aabout justice anymore. There is No such thing, or it is extremely rare these days. Justice is carried on the backs of a few of the Spotted Owls it seems.

Dirty Steve............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 18:01:25 (ZULU)

Jon, yeah, what was ‘normal’ appears hot in the Lapua, and I’m not sure why. Exactly like you said, the primers (even the popped one!) looked just perfect – no flattening or atypical cratering. That’s why I say it’s difficult for me to say what’s wrong. On your temperature stuff though, there’s no set rule for that. The rule of thumb is that the reaction will double per 10 degree increase, but I can tell you from experience that the rule of thumb (the scale anyway) doesn’t apply as such to powders. I know that I’ve had ball powder loads that were NICE at room temperature, but were excessively heavy at over 100F. I wanted to do some TGA/DSC work with powders to get the real skinny, but the guys in that department get kind of concerned when it comes to me playing with their expensive toys and gunpowder. But, but, but – it’s only a leeeeetle ignition! Heck, there was even one pistol powder that went the opposite way – higher velocities at low temperature. Looking at the reaction as purely that, I’ll make some broad generalizations though – the velocity difference between 60F and 70F should be less than the difference between 90F and 100F. On Varget, when asked at BL about my load I mentioned that I used H4895 for these, as it was a touch faster than Varget but almost as temperature stable. The reply I got was ‘not out here it’s not’. That appeared to be the case as well. When those guys say ‘nothing has been as stable as Varget out here’, I tend to believe them LOL! Oh, and I’ll make one other comment, even though it might make some people upset – I don’t like Alliant powders. I’m cutting my own throat (well, kind of – it’s not like I have a profit-sharing program here) by saying that, but Alliant doesn’t build as good of a powder as others IMO. To be honest though, they do build powders better than some.

Pistol raffle? Sure. I’ll use the same logic on this raffle that Patron Yote Bait used on shooting yotes one-handed out of a moving truck: a bullet has to go somewhere, you might just get lucky ;-)

Ideal long range rig country: I've been banging my head on a way to get a long range rig under 10 pounds all-up for a while now. Can't seem to figure it out either. Yesterday I was talking with Geoff Corn about such things, and he told me that he figures I'm going the wrong way.... better to exhaust myself humping a hefty stick and make the shot 'cause a heavy stick just 'lays' better, than to have an easy hump and miss the shot. Now I'll agree that some heft does help the stick just lay better, but what's the optimum weight here? I figure there might be something comparative - Geoff is a big 'ol boy, and I'm flatly not that tall. Or maybe it's just that I'm used to the weight and balance of a GI M14. Oh, and before I forget, Geoff said that there's an outfit making good custom fiberglass stocks (good as McMillan) that I ought to look into. He said Manter or Mantir, but I can't find anything on the web when I search for that. Any ideas?

Bravo
Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 18:35:29 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: She rode barrels, first time in front of folks, three weeks ago! And pole thing-a-ma-doos. She kinda walked the pony, but let 'er rip on the way back.

Bravo: It depends on where the weight is, I suppose.

Joe M
Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 19:46:58 (ZULU)

Bravo,

He's talking about Manners stocks I imagine...triple dublya mannersstocks dot com..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 21:50:01 (ZULU)

Click my name. Funny stuff. Spew alert.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 3, 2007, at 22:35:51 (ZULU)

HAPPY 4th Y'ALL

I plan on doing my patriotic duty tomorrow and exercise my Second Amendment rights. May God bless the USA and the Revolution that made it possible.

No offense to my Brit friends here. ; )

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 00:40:40 (ZULU)

Bravo:

The reaction rate rule of thumb is for bulk reactants. Powders have a lot of surface chemistry involved, which gives all sorts of snakey effects.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 00:46:27 (ZULU)

Take time to read this. If enacted could cause some serious problems for shooters. http://www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm?PRloc=common/PR/&PR=BP070207.cfm

HDR
OK, - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 02:25:31 (ZULU)

Bravo: If you can get your rifle under 12 lbs, you're doing good. After that, well, IMHO Mr. Corn is correct. As for carrying it, the higher (as in on the shoulders, as opposed to down around yer byew-tocks)the better. Go to Kifaru.com and look at their rifle holster. Puts the rifle right under your arm, muzzle up and forward, with a QD that lets it drop right where you want it, fast. It's GTG. Get it mounted up, and start walking the walk with the weight. Or just put some extra cans in the ruck if the local constabulary gets pissy about you carrying a GUN. The deputies around here just honk and wave; sometimes they stop and make fun of the old man and ask if they should start an ambulance.....ha. ha. ha.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 06:48:55 (ZULU)

Thanks for the replies guys. Looks like I'll have to just try the things out at the different temps., eh? I like the idea of the cool box though.

I've fancied having a play with the Hodgdon powders because of the advertised temperature stability. Varget is a bit quick for the 300WM though. In my tests I've discovered (for me any way) the use of magnum primers just about doubles my ES figures over standard primers. I can get away with using standard primers with RL22, but with H4831SC I get sooty cases and a dirty, horrible bore, unless I use the magnum primer. I've been wanting to try H1000, but assume as its slower than the H4831 it'll definately need the hotter spark. I'd be interested to hear what other magnum shooters have found with trying to keep ESs and SDs down when needing to use magnum primers.

Some of the Alliant powders have become akin to rocking horse shit over here, and if rumours are correct it sounds like it'll be that way for a good while yet. Maybe time to look at alternatives.

Bravo,

With my first batch of Lapua brass I noticed it had one hell of a 'grip'. I always run new brass through a K&M expander to round them out. I lubed the mandrel and the case mouths with Imp. sizing wax. Well, the mandrel went in a bit stiff and getting the thing out was a nightmare. Had to bash away at the handle on the press. Also when selecting bushings, to get the 2-3 thou neck tension I had to go with a bushing 1 thou OVER loaded diameter!! I was wondering if the same properties are found at the other end and the primer pocket keeps a damn good hold of the primer. This second batch I'm into doesn't seem anywhere near as bad, but I haven't pushed the loads with it to test the primers; did that with the last lot.

Thanks again fellas. Off back to Wales for a few days as of today. JR, if your reading, got the burgers and sausages last night. They smell good. Think you, I mean we, will have to give them a try soon!! How you looking for the weekend after next?

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 10:41:36 (ZULU)

HDR, That's so stupid it may just pass. Searching every customer that goes some place to buy ammo for lighters? How F-Uped is that nonsense.

JoeM, If Peanut has a good horse. Please take the time to insure it. I had a co-worker get in an accident and could not get the Insurance of the at fault driver to cover the 25K price of the horse.

DIrtySteve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 17:51:26 (ZULU)

re: hand-carts for IPSC 3-gun matches

Any favourite products for hand-carts for IPSC 3-gun matches?

(Vendors, model #, URL's?)

I'm thinking about products that bear a vague resemblance (or are adaptions) to/of a golf hand-cart.

Ideal would be a kit that could be applied to a locally-purchased golf hand-cart.

TIA

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 21:26:52 (ZULU)

I step away for a bit and come back to find this place hoppin.

I got my SCLE rifle back from George in record time before he moved his shop. I think he only had it for two weeks. It's now a 26" barreled .243 (7.5 twist Rock) with a Badger brake and the Badger detachable box mag floor plate that accepts the AI mags. Not cheap but it's a really nice setup. Full blown gamers rig I guess and my buddies are giving me lots of shit for it but I don't mind.

I got it broken in with four shots and it quit holding copper. Then I started some three shot groups and it's a freakin' tack driver. At 100 yards I can pick out a bullet hole and hit it. It doesn't have any kind recoil either just a small vibration. Starting at about 250 to 300 yards I can see the bullet impact on target. I'm shooting 115 DTACS at somewhere around 3,000 fps. I can't tell exactly because this was one of the days when my Pact chrony decided not to detect the bullet. It does that sometimes.

Unfortunately I had problems with the scope I planned on using and couldn't get it all worked out in time for the big match this weekend. I'm going to have to bring my .260 that I've been using but that's not a sacrifice. That rifle shoots really tight and I know it well. I'm just pissed off because I've got close to 1,700 in this rebuild including all of the reloading goodies and I did it specifically for this match. That's what I get for trying to rush things. For me, one weekend is not enough time to bring an entirely new rifle online.

According to the JBM calculations page I should have about 25 moa to 1K from this .243 load. If true that will beat my .260 load (142 SMK @ 2,800) by about 4.5 moa. It will be interesting to see what I lose in barrel life for such a small increase in performance.

Gotta go clean guns from this mornings range session. I think the best way to celebrate this holiday is by sending lead down range!

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, July 4, 2007, at 22:18:26 (ZULU)

Rod...

Check out http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/home.php Links are on the left.

To All: A Happy and Safe 4th.

UnPat

UnPat
Freedom, The Best - Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 00:32:40 (ZULU)

re: 3-gun cart

Hi UnPat:

I was thinking more along the lines of 3-gun, not High Power matches.

Found this, looks interesting:

http://ruggedgear.com/shooting_cart.php

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 03:49:57 (ZULU)

HDR " Take time to read this. If enacted could cause some serious problems for shooters. http://www.nssf.org/news/PR_idx.cfm?PRloc=common/PR/&PR=BP070207.cfm"

HDR, All - time to get on the phone/fax to our Senators/Congressmen and squash this sh*t before it gets started.... Where do they come up with this stuff....

Happy 4th all -- don't forget the reason -- although it seems some folks have - LOL....

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 04:10:36 (ZULU)

Rod...

Twice as attractive at half the price...

History Country:THE 4TH OF JULY

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men

Who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors,

And tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army;

Another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or

Hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes,

And their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists.

Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large

Plantation owners; men of means, well educated,

But they signed the Declaration of Independence

Knowing full well that the penalty would be death if

They were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw

His ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold

His home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British

That he was forced to move his family almost constantly.

He served in the Congress without pay, and his family

Was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken fro m him,

And poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall,

Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and

Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that

The British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson

Home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General

George Washington to open fire. The home was

Destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.

The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few

Months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was

Dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and

His gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he

Lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife

Dead and his children vanished. Some of us take these

Liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't.

So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July

Holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to

Ask for the price they paid.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 05:15:57 (ZULU)

Syrian troops enter Lebanon, fortify positions to depth of three kilometres

July 5, 2007, 10:51 AM (GMT+02:00)

Lebanese security sources report the intruding force backed by bulldozers has taken up position near Yanta in east Lebanon’s Beqaa Valley and is digging hundreds of trenches and bunkers in more than one area along the Lebanese border. This explains why Syria Wednesday reopened the Joussia-Qaa border post. Damascus-backed Palestinian radicals have been fighting Lebanese troops for close to two months in the still unresolved battle of Nahr al-Bared near Tripoli.

Gooch
Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 17:35:41 (ZULU)

A 'lito definition... you heard it here furst!

Politics...

The arena that egomaniacal children use to fight in, for the possession of toys that they are too immature to play with!

They better come up with better candidates, or this election will be the worst in history.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 5, 2007, at 20:21:06 (ZULU)

'Lito,

That reminds me of the time I saw Lester Thurow openly suggest turning national defense, including nukes, over to private enterprise.

Gotta love the ivy league.

Duman
Friday, July 6, 2007, at 04:32:10 (ZULU)

Unpat- That was good. Thank you.

Crotch rocket riders- Some poor bastard ran his bike into a Taco Bell at 100 mph. Several pics on the link below but be warned this is very graphic stuff.

http://www.motohouston.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31256

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, July 6, 2007, at 05:50:39 (ZULU)

The OSHA debacle:

What it does is lump ammunition, powder, and primers together with all high explosives and mandates handling/shipping in the same way.

I looked it up on the Government Regulations website (http://www.regulations.gov). It's OSHA document OSHA-2007-0032-0001, and comments are due by 12 July. It's been posted since April.

This has been on the Federal Register since 13 April but apparently it's slipped under the radar of the NRA-ILA! As of yesterday THEY didn't have a clue this was coming down! What's it mean? Simply that the 'liberal bureaucrats' intend to stop us from receiving shipments of components through our regular sources of UPS/FedEx, etc.! If implemented...it will mean the end of the shooting sports! Due to the lateness of this being discovered, end time for COMMENTS to OSHA is 12 July 2007! If you folks wish to continue to receive shipments of powder/primers from UPS/FedEx, etc. it would be advisable to start contacting your Reps in the US Congress IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER!

OSHA invites comments on all aspects of the proposed rule. .... You may submit comments in response to this document electronically at http://www.regulations.gov. Just lookup OSHA document OSHA-2007-0032-0001 and leave your comments.

The NRA page has a good form letter you can copy & paste if you do not feel like writing - the whole process will take you about 5 minutes. It's at http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=3145

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, July 6, 2007, at 06:11:33 (ZULU)

Marc S.,

Darwin strikes AGAIN! The gene pool DEFINITELY needs more chlorine! (this from a former bullrider)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, July 6, 2007, at 07:32:59 (ZULU)

Guys been busy as can be.

KenM and Gooch if either or both of you might have "itchy feet" in 2-3 months let me know. Usual bad places.

Been working with that 375 Chey Tac on a Lawton built CheyTac Rifle. Damm impressive. I dropped velocity down to 3000 fps for the 350s with BC of 1.01 and it seems just right for extreme range.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, July 6, 2007, at 17:59:41 (ZULU)

UnDude: Off-roster email inbound

Joe M
Friday, July 6, 2007, at 19:57:03 (ZULU)

MarcS,

I've never met anyone desperate enough to break into a taco bell, let alone break in at 100mph.

He woulda been fine, had he been wearing a helmet. Too bad there's no onboard video documentary.

There's an opp for a commercial, here. Where's the Chihuahua?

Duman
Friday, July 6, 2007, at 20:32:55 (ZULU)

I think the OSHA site is rigged !!

Only 17 responses are shown.

One ASS actually thinks it's a good thing ??????

I've responded and so have many friends.

What gives.

Government at it's best,or the best our Tax Dollars can buy. LOL

Vote and Vote Often !

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, NJ, USA - Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 15:44:42 (ZULU)

Joe and others, seems to me the DR Email does not always work so email me at either. Nothing came through

Tacticalslings or DMMDNLN

Both are followed by @AOL.COM

MikeMiller
Ca, - Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 17:39:43 (ZULU)

Guys,

Om gun carts/golf bag carts: I just found an electric, motorised, remote controlled golf bag cart for $100! It's pretty cool. I think it's gonna make a pretty awesome gun cart. I know it'll be cool at gun shows. I hate trying to juggle 2 or 3 rifles and look at stuff, too.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 19:50:47 (ZULU)

Travis,

Didn't Rodney Dangerfield have a sooped-up golf bag in "Caddy-Shack"? He just clicked a button, and the club of choice popped out. It even included a stereo and a beer cooler, IIRC.

Duman
Saturday, July 7, 2007, at 23:45:49 (ZULU)

Travis:

Is the cart a one-of or can you share a link?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 01:44:29 (ZULU)

So there's an English Bike contingent here too...I am completely unsurprised. I might know a thing or two about them. '69 441 Victor, BTW. Hey, free LTW-for-AmericanSnipers.org raffle ticket to the first person who can tell me the big dif between the '68 and '69 Victors. E-mail me the answer since I'm spotty on checking stuff.

The 1980 Triumph TR7 rotting in my garage surely doesn't count since it's just a car.... but it was "The Shape of Things to Come". Was a great car until I drove it into a hail storm....

Ned Christiansen
3R, MI, USA - Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 06:04:02 (ZULU)

Ned,

e mail inbound via roster

UnPat

Unpat
Wi, USA - Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 07:29:59 (ZULU)

Steven

I noticed that same thing, so i went and faxed a letter also and one to my U.S. Representative.

Gary Kaney
N.W., IL, - Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 12:00:47 (ZULU)

I don't know from Victors... but I drove (but did not own) an Ariel square four 1,000 cc

HA! - top that for odd machines!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, July 8, 2007, at 22:31:17 (ZULU)

Rode a 1934 VL,This would be the 74ci flathead Harley,Documented and letter certified as a former Steve McQueen bike.Complete w/brush paint job,frame was blue,fenders red.Tank shift.

1966 FLH Police also tank shift,fitted w/Reverse gear but sidecar was removed.Shifter gate was for a 4 speed and had to use second on the gate to get 1st in the box...First was actually reverse.Car behind me didnt appreciated my backing up....LOL...No harm done.

1958 Triumph 3TA Twenty One, This was 95% bike.Paint was the only thing not factory...Still had hard rubber(?)type Lucas battery and the pink Lodge spark plugs,Bathtub Skirts...ran as smooth as a Swiss watch too.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, July 9, 2007, at 01:08:33 (ZULU)

Canning time......

It has begun. That time of year when I burn gallons of propane, boil gallons of water, break jars, and burn my friggin hands and face all for the purpose of eating good this winter. One of these days I'm gonna remember that there are grocery stores right around the block.

Combloc rifle ammo.....

I'm taking the plunge on a Mosin M44 and M91 and need ammo. I don't know squat about 54r ammo that's on the market so someone needs to email me or post about what to buy and what to stay away from.

Pistola raffle.......

Bought a tic but didn't receive confirmation or ticket number. Whas up wid dat?

Bolt out!

Bolt
vegetable garden in overdrive, NC, - Monday, July 9, 2007, at 01:53:24 (ZULU)

Hey Bolt,

Busy canning myself... Lot's of blueberries.

Try here for info on mosin ammo. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm

You can always roll your own to... I use a lee 308win collet die to do mine for my 91/30 sniper...

Have a good un'

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, July 9, 2007, at 13:50:21 (ZULU)

Greetings,

Perhaps I missed something, but isn't ballistic coefficient always less than 1.0? If I am talking out of turn here, someone please inform me. Thanks

Pat II
Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 01:12:16 (ZULU)

Dead line for posting coments on the OSHA 'explosives' proposed rule change extended by 60 days.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 02:58:12 (ZULU)

Guys I just shot a bitch of a match in So Cal this weekend. The match was fine just 100+ temps and nothing but talcom powder dust with a little four hour nap on Saturday night. No problem there it was good training. My problem was a mechanical one.

After the initial briefing I'm walking up the hill with my pack on to start the first stage and my rifle was slung muzzle up over right shoulder. The fore end flush cup swivel popped out of the cup and the rifle flipped back and down so the muzzle slams the rocks and dust at a 45 degree angle really fucking hard. A 28" palma contour barrel on a 16# rifle can sound like a tuning fork if you do it right. I tied up the swivel to the handstop with 550 cord, ran a few patches through and moved out.

Cold bore shot was no where to be seen. So were all the shots on the next stages. Then I found it, adjusted, got a few and it moved again. The poi shifted several times. Sometimes I had good groups and sometimes not. I didn't just dump shots I dumped entire stages but I kept working at it and trying to find my zero. I still fired each shot like it was the only shot and tried to learn what ever I could from each stage. It seemed to settle in and my last stage at midnight on Saturday was a very tight group in the center under flashing lights.

Next morning I had a headache that wouldn't quit and my CB was about 4" low and left on a 100 yard target. It moved again. I adjusted my knobs to zero out again and moved on. Set up on my down hill angle stage and had two targets. Both were close with one at about 80 yards and the next at about 180. The angle was about 20 degrees on the first one and less on the second. It required five shots on each and my first one punched out the letter X on the 3" Shoot-N-C. I put two more into the same hole and I thought they might score misses so I held over to the edge of the hole for the next two and opened it up a little but still a one hole group. Now I'm about to clean this fucking stage right now jack. I stuff down my next five and they get all crossed up and locked in place in the magazine box. I'm fighting it as best as I can and kept trying to get at least one in the chamber while choking in the dust cloud from all the shooting. Then the buzzer goes off and it's over.

I hate to admit this but I sort of lost it right there. My whole body got as hard as a rock and my teeth clenched real hard then I picked up my rifle and THREW IT BACK DOWN TO THE GROUND WITH GREAT FORCE. Then I picked up my shit and walked back to the rear and DID IT AGAIN BUT HARDER INTO HARDER GROUND from about chest level. I've done that with golf clubs and tennis raquets when I was young but I thought I'd matured somewhat. What a pathetic fucking little child. Got some diaper rash and needed some Desitin on my balls I guess. I wish I hadn't done that it feels really embarassing now.

Whatever. One stage left from 600 yards. I pick up my rifle and notice there is a handful of dirt, rocks and sticks sitting inside of the objective bell right on top of the lens. I tilt it down and it pours out like powder. That goes well with the marks on the tube that look like I used it to hammer tent stakes. Now my bolt feels like it's lubed with Skippy Super Chunk peanut butter and I can feel grinding and crunching in there. The bolt is hard to close on a live round and requires a hard push on the down stroke. It was already like this before my little tantrum.

We get one free spotter shot and I hold dead center with regular 600 yard dope. Hit edge of ten at 3. Dial half moa left and send ten more in short order with more attention given to loading technique. They all felt like perfect shots breaking right on the center dot but it was a 12" to 14" group. Still I got an 86 out of it.

I almost got in my truck and drove away on three seperate occasions but I stuck with it and I'm glad I did. Somehow I managed to get ninth place out of about 30 some odd shooters. Scorekeepers must have been smoking crack. If that hadn't dropped it...well...nevermind.

I learned lessons some good some bad and not all about shooting.

Today it was good to be back to normal life as a construction superintendent on a screwed up project in the city. I was falling asleep by lunch time and couldn't process the simplest of questions or tasks so I took off.

That's my longest post ever!

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 04:37:45 (ZULU)

Wayyyyy back in the day (1999-2001?) there used to be a monthly match in Sacramento jokingly called the Mudville Malitia. It was great fun and id like to get back at it. The dust on my rifles is not very pretty.

I did some searching on line for it but could find no current mention of it. Does anyone have the inside scoop? Is it still going on? Did it fade away into oblivion?

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff H
San Jose, Ca, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 05:30:35 (ZULU)

Pat II,

Yep, BC can be greater than 1. I think it may have something to do with global warming, but I'm not sure exactly what. Al Gore could probably tell you. After all, he invented global warming shortly after he invented the Internet. Smart guy, huh? Odd, He really doesn't look that smart though. There are rumors, just rumors, mind you, that he invented ballistic coefficients, but that hasn't been substantiated yet.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 05:41:58 (ZULU)

Canning country,

OK Calvin, I`ll bite. what do you do with the canned blueberries? I seen a lot of stuff canned, peaches, cherries, deer meat, pickles, beets, etc. but I`ve never heard of blueberries. We talkin` just on the morning toastie flakes or we talkin` pies and cobler. What`s the deal? You makin` jam down there below the Mason-Dixon or what? Huh? HUH?!!

( I think I made myself hungry just there)

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 06:45:21 (ZULU)

MarcS...

Were those "flush mount swivels", the ones with a steel cup in the stock, and the sling part has a pushbutton stud with a few ball bearings that lock into the steel cup?

Don't ask how I know ;)

I survived the episode a bit embarrassed. They were "Da rage" some years back (about when Jonah moved all of his furnishings and flat screen TV into "Whale Central").

I had them installed on a 40XB Match rifle. The front one was built into a real expensive Freeland hand stop.

At a match, I picked up the rifle by leaning over and grabbing the sling.

Half way up, the front one let loose, and the barrel hit the ground on the front "Olympic" sight, and "spronked" it. The mounting screws for the base broke off and left me with a tomato stick!

The rear cup is still in the stock, but the front hand stop w/swivel went in the trash a looooooooooooooooooooooong time ago.

Pat-II

>" Greetings, Perhaps I missed something, but isn't ballistic coefficient always less than 1.0? If I am talking out of turn here, someone please inform me. Thanks"<

The BC of the USA 16" navel shells is ~14.00 (That's FOURTEEN!!!).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 08:06:56 (ZULU)

Marc S.,

Thank GOD some idiot didn't interrupt your little "anger management" session. He probly woulda gotten a titanium jawbone, thanks to your stock! I think we've all been there, more or less.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 11:13:36 (ZULU)

Marc....HA! BTDT! I used to ride and race mountain bikes, locally, here in Tejas. Wanna know how many times I've made Olympic-grade hammer tosses into the landscape with a $2000 GT full-suspension, all XTR, aluminum and unobtanium racing bike? So would I, 'cuz I've lost count. When I went through the Advanced Phase I class in Badlands, the eyepiece on my Leupold was loose, but not so's I could notice it at first, since I always leave it on 10X. After getting som really nice 00-Buck groups at 100 yds, I was about to pop a gasket. This continued all day, until for some reason I had to move the power setting. Oops. I duct taped the shit out of it and drove on. Love that stuff. Anyhoo....we all been there, don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 13:18:45 (ZULU)

( blue berry country)

Hey Steve,

The uses for blueberries are almost unlimited ! Jam,in pancakes,on waffles,syrup,raw,and the all time fave....daiquiris ! I got them just down the road from ya at the orchard ( wiesers ?) across from the auto auction.. Hint, if your ever making jam make sure you mash the berries up good.. If ya don't your kitchen will look like a claymore at a smurf picnic. Who woulda thought them things could be so explosive ?

Hey ( and you too Ken Hunter) when are ya gonna head down and hunt some whistle pigs ? The farmer is on my ass about not killing enough of them ! Got one at 500 yds awhile back ! Hunting's good down here !

Calvin

PS a great recipe for blue berry jam is with a little lime

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 14:11:23 (ZULU)

Click my name. This ass might oughta change the way he votes.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 15:44:28 (ZULU)

Lito - "(about when Jonah moved all of his furnishings and flat screen TV into "Whale Central")" I can't stop laughing !!! Good one!

JC - Global Warming - concerts around the world, singing about our 'carbon footprint' by yahoos that charter private jets, picked up at airport by parade of a dozen limos, live in 20,000+ square foot houses, consume more energy in a week than i do in a year, telling me I need to conserve energy? Huh. I wonder how much $$ Gwhore is extracting from this gig.

Duman
Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 15:58:59 (ZULU)

PatII,

As lito said, you can get much higher BC's than 1...BC is calculated by figuring the form factor(the shape), mass, and diameter of one particular projectile, and then comparing to a 'standard' projectile of not too dissimilar shape which has a Ballistic Coefficient of 1. The standards, as set out by the Ingalls tables, assume a diameter of one inch and a weight of one pound, in the particular shape not too dissimilar from the test projectile, or the bullets we use. We generally in the shooting industry, use the BC as a comparison against a relatively blunt nosed, flat based standard, even though the bullets we use today are quite different, being sharper nosed and often boat tailed base..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 19:25:40 (ZULU)

Pat-II...

I'll add to what JR said.

The one pound, 1.00" dia Ingle's standard is just one of 8 standards, and they are refered to as "G-1, through G-8".

The Ingle's was a cylinder with a 1.00" dia, and a conical nose of XX diameters long.

This way, any lab in the world, could make a "standard" bullet on a lathe.

But G-2 through G-8 are actually based on real artillery shells from WW-1 and WW-2. Most of these were in the 2.5" to 4" bore size, and weighed a few pounds. There are Radius/flat based - Tangent/flat based, secant/flat based - radius/boat tailed... etc. A good bunch to chose from to match up what you have.

Only problem is that our bullets are real tiny compared to the standard, so the "Reynold's number", is smaller so we have to have "our" software constantly correct for "Reynold's number" errors.

But all things considered, our software does a really good job.

The only bullet shape that we can't find some reference for, it the VLD, and our software just works harder to make it fit.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 19:53:07 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Yeah what you said, hah, my thinker is about half turned off presently..

Cheers

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, July 10, 2007, at 20:05:08 (ZULU)

II. ENACTMENT OF THE FIREARMS OWNERS' PROTECTION ACT

Good reading on stuff I didn't know. Click

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 00:36:14 (ZULU)

Greetings,

I stand corrected. Good stuff. Especially for the next time I my working up loads for my 16" cannon.

It's been said before. Hard to find a more knowledgable group than on the roster.

Pat II
Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 03:14:02 (ZULU)

Marc S,

I wouldn't sweat the small stuff. We have all had meltdown days on the range. I've watched guys hold there M-24s like a baseball bat and launch them during a bad momemt. Those things are entertaining to watch, except when it's you. Happens to everybody.

Pat II
Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 03:21:10 (ZULU)

You're supposed to get a confirmation on your raffle ticket purchase for AmericanSnipers.org, either via Email or snail mail. Give it a week or so if you would.

Ned Christiansen
3R, MI, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 06:12:48 (ZULU)

MarcS, Please from now on don't do that. Beating up a $4,000 rifle hurts me to hear about. Please keep a Ruger 77 or Savage in your truck. When the moment for action takes place run and get the "spare" to slam stuff with. Sure you loose a little of the "moment" be you will feel better the next day when you realize you didn't trash your good gun. I tore up enough stuff to fill a dumpster so I know angry. But I feel like you did later. So I set my expensive stuff down and tear up crap that really needs tore up any how.

DirtySteve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 06:31:43 (ZULU)

Jeff H.- I shoot that match in Sac every month. It's grown to an average of about 40 shooters and you wouldn't recognize the courses of fire anymore. It's really a fun match.

Litosan- Yes it was the flush cup type swivel. I hate those fucking things with a passion now. That's the second one I've had fail at a really bad time. The last one was slung muzzle up and the butt swivel popped out and the muzzle speared down into the soft mud which packed about 4" worth into the bore. This was happened after the most of the guys were already lined up on the two hundred yard line and they waited on me while I cleaned it out. I've also had them pop out in matches while slung up and shooting. Some guys love them and convert all of their rifles but I'll never, ever trust them again. My McM A5 stock will go up for sale as soon as I order a new one with regular swivel studs. Also, these multiple failures have happened to me on two different rifles, three different sizes and manufacturers of the actual swivel, and two different attachment cups. One cup was stock on the A5 and this time it was on a Freeland type handstop which fits into a rail. All of this has happened to me only in the last 6 months. The design sucks and is a bad idea. Period.

Travis- I know you were just joking but there's no way I'd have gotten shitty with anyone else for any reason even though I was mad. I was just mad at myself.

Charles- I'd pay money to see you flip a bike through the air LOL. Classic.

I just found out a couple hours ago that I missed first place by only 80 points after all of that. I dumped several stages entirely for at least 40 shots out into space. The coulda, woulda, shoulda is killing me now. I'm sure I could've tried a little harder or been a little smarter somewhere.

Why am I suddenly craving blueberry pancakes!?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 06:39:40 (ZULU)

Calvin,

It`s a wonder I haven`t bumped into you at Weiser`s dude. We`re in there a lot when fruit season is in. I grew up in York Springs. Great little town but you have to speak Spanish to live there now. Ain`t the same place no mo.

They gots all kinds of yummy stuff there, eh? Some of the best local peaches around. Peter`s Orchard up Rt.94 North, on the other side of York Springs about 3 miles, has good stuff too. And you get a free roller coaster ride on the way. Scenery included.

That stuff makes my tum tum tummy growl!

Cobbbbb lerrrrr!........COBBBBB! LERRRRRR!!!!!

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 07:05:25 (ZULU)

Pat-II...

>"Especially for the next time I my working up loads for my 16" cannon."<

A good starting point is four bags, and work up one bag at a time, but don't exceed 7 bags, except with the HE shells, and NEVER exceed 6 bags with the AP's

;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 14:14:12 (ZULU)

Morning Hawgs!!

Just catching up on the roster and see everyone is doing fine.

PatII and I have been getting out on a regular basis to do some shooting. He still gives me a hard time about my "Caliber of the month" guns but I think I have him coming my way now. He's starting to see the advantage of those high BCs in our wind out here. I can see a 260 in his future. Now if I can just get him to "Dial" instead of holding Mils........

MarcS,

I had the samething happen in Wyoming to me at the D&L shoot one year with my old H&S stock. I was crawling up the side of a steep hill when my front sling swivel let go. Fortunatly for me I reached back and cought the rifle by the barrel as it went flying by. How I did it I will never know, just luck.

JR, 'lito,

You two never cease to amaze me with your knowlege!! If I ever need to know anything I always know where to come.(HA) Hope all is well with you guys!!!!

Pat
Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 15:21:40 (ZULU)

Hygenically-challenged Steve.....what you got against Salvages? Ruu...Ru...one of those other rifles I can see, but a Salvage? OK, weekend after next, bring YOUR pipefitter's union special, the one in .223 that shoots 1-3/4" at 500, and we'll take turns bending it around the uprights. Sounds like fun, eh?

Marc....bike tossing. OK, make it $20 a toss, and you're on. I'll start tossing one of my local midgets to get in shape. I work with one, we call him Fetus....he looks like he's about 16 weeks old. Took us two years to get the thumb outta his mouth. He moonlights as the stunt-midget on Carlos Mencia's show.....

I'm thinking of investing in a scattergun. I'm not gonna hunt with it, it's going to be defensive all the way. Has to be simple (like me)reliable and easy to maintain. I'm leaning toward Mossberg. I like pumps, but are semi's reliable? I'm open for any comment, as I know very little about them. Used one a time or two, and I have a passing familiarity with them since I'm allegedly a cop, but if anyone has the definitive tool for me, gimme some info. Thanx.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 16:42:29 (ZULU)

Jeff/Marc- is this the Sac match you guys are talking about?

http://sacvalley.org/SacVal/Tactical_Long_Range.html

Click name.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 17:08:54 (ZULU)

That seems to be the one.

The group has a website on yahoo groups....

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/mudvillem/

I'm going to try to get out there sometime. The course of fire have changed a lot since the last time I checked into it. Looks like fun.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 17:14:13 (ZULU)

Chuck, I have nothing against Salvages. I think highly of them.. But if I were mad at my GA rifle going tits up at an in-oppertune time, I would set it down and throw the less expensive rifle that I can fix. And that aint right you picking on Fetus(and yes we openly call him that for the last 12 years or so). Can I get in on the bike toss. I started werking out and I can practice by throwing the other Circus Midget. (Jaimes sp?).

Lito, Aint anything fired from a 16" gun Armor Piercing? They are all probably fun to shoot too.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 17:25:15 (ZULU)

Chuck H.,

Remington 870 pump with Rifle sights. That will be all you will need. Have ran alot of Mossburgs through up here...lots of problems with them. Will let you run my 870 this weekend along with a Mossburg....You will see the difference. See ya Thursday Chuck!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 18:35:04 (ZULU)

Marc and others two problems exist with Flush Cup Swivels

1. The cups themselves need to be correctly installed. Not too deep or too much goo on top or they wont actually lock. This was a problem on many McMillan stocks because they set them too deep and all but the CS litle itty ones would pop out.

2. The swivels are only manufactured by a couple of places. Just one in US now. The off shore crap is crap. Its 99 percent of market. The US Manufacture just started production a couple of months ago and what I recently got was the best I have seen ever for a flush cup.

Now nothing is as bomb proof as the swivels MIM'd with gate closed but I see guys forget to close gate and the pin bends or breaks.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 00:01:21 (ZULU)

Lady Bird Johnson died today. I suppose that I should have thought about the era, the war, or her husband's micro-management style...hell, there are many, many important things I should have thought about.

But my one and only thought was: "Now we can dump that Bell Textron POS, the OH58..."

Joe M
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 00:25:59 (ZULU)

Hey all,

Haven't been here in a LONG time. Good to see the same crowd and some new faces as well.

Anyhoo, I have a service rifle question. I got into a "conversation" with a guy regarding target crowns. He maintains that an AR with a target crown is useless when an A2 is then mounted. I was under the impression that the AMU had target crowns on their barrels regardless. Thoughts?

Thanks

Rich S
MD, - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 01:11:26 (ZULU)

'Lito-you're indeed a fund of information, load data for the 16" naval rifles yet. Come to think of it, I've got the Coast Artillery manual for the 8-16 inch rifles and mortars somewhere, wonder if load data is in there?

BYW, picked up those M40 type rings & mount you posted. The mount appears to be marked 700/40. Both rings & mount are painted, the mount so recently there aren't even marks from the rings being installed. The rings suck, peened the dovetail to tighten it up, the "dirt" was the rust I expected. Overall, worth the money. The rings are medium. Anyone know if those were issue?

WR Moore
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 01:41:29 (ZULU)

Rich S: An A2's bullet departs an opening at the end of the barrel just like a bullet departs from a GAP custom, eh? A concentric launching point can NEVER hurt, regardless.

Been eyeballing a lower sitting in my parts bin...maybe it needs to be a DCM-legal stick with a kreiger pipe? Heheh...the wife would kill me if I grow another AR...

Joe M
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 01:44:18 (ZULU)

OK guys, I need a little help.

I have several peach trees on the homestead which are just bursting with almost ripe fruit. This year, for the first time ever, a family of squirrels have moved into the area and they appear to be harvesting the peaches at a rate of ~6 per day. I've only got 2 acres so even a rimfire is not a safe proposition.

I own a 17 cal Diana / RWS pellet gun which produces velocities over 1000 FPS. This model is somewhat obscure, but is actually a 'common' RWS model 34 with aesthetic changes. I'd like to mount an airgun scope to the rifle to improve on the practical accuracy. "Holding hard" on this damn "sproinger" redefines difficult and doing it while contorting to make the stock iron sight setup work requires absurd Olympic levels of skill....which I lack.

My question....the supplied rail on the rifle is very shallow and only .433 inch wide...I'm wondering if the Burris z rings would be the best choice or if they would even grab on such a narrow, shallow rail. I don't seem to be able to get any guidance from the airgun websites ...just hoping one of you guys is a closet airgunner...maybe one of the UK group? These squirrels must go, even if I have to ghillie up to make it happen.

medicjim
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 04:41:34 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Use Aguila super Colibri's in your .22. The box says pistol only, but they shoot just fine out of my Henry .22. Keep your range down to 20-25 yds., and you'll be havin' Squirrel and dumplins w/peaches for dessert!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 08:22:13 (ZULU)

Medic Jim...

Those slots (.433 inch wide) are the "fur-in-er" version of out 3/8ths tip-off mounts we use on .22s.

I had them on my RWS some years ago.

Go here.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 12:16:49 (ZULU)

Duman...

Strike anywhere matches?

What's your source. The ARE against the law (federal) in all states, EVERYWHERE... for retail sales. They cannot be sold at the supermarket.

It is because back in the 70's the government (that we love and trust so much) found out that un-edu-ma-cated ghetto people in the inner cities were letting their kids play with strike anywhere matches, with obvious results. (Isn't that called Darwinism??)

But there is an exception - if the matches are used for special purposes, like camping, ranching, etc - this got around the charge that the law was racist - if you are an inner city ghetto idiot, and you go camping, you are free to burn your stupid ass up ;)

Our local camping store used to carry them, and then stopped because it wasn't worth the extra fire insurance.

Where do you get them.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 12:26:17 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

>"Lito, Ain't anything fired from a 16" gun Armor Piercing?"<

HA! Double HA!!

Actually, there were several different shells for the 16".

The AP are used against other battle ships that have 50" of hardened steel plate - at 20+ miles, the 16" shell has lost much of it "Whomp", and the regular HE can deform on the surface of the armor like a .22 hitting a plate - then the powder sutffie gets tossed all over the place.

Notes of gunnery officers in WW-I and WW-II relate large shells bouncing off, or sometimes breaking apart against enemy's ships armor plate. That was because the shells were thin walled steel, filled with HE (TNT).

The 16" AP, was a really heavy steel shell, with a hardened point, with a smallish HE charge in the back of the shell, so the nose would not deform on impact, and the shell would stay together when hitting a hardened target - they were also used against the 20 foot thick concrete bunkers of shore batteries... these 16" AP's would zip right through... a large explosive charge was not needed, because the target was small - 300 pounds of TNT was enough to wreck a gun battery, or cause havoc in a ships engine room or powder magazine.

The normal HE shells had a thin steel body and was mostly TNT, and these were used against towns, battle fields, etc - where it was used as a one ton bomb, without the airplane.

There will be a test on Monday ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 12:53:16 (ZULU)

Lito,

Strike Anywhere matches - My dad found some in Michigan. In the grocery store. Next time I'm there, I'll pick some up.

IIRC, the 'tin can sailors' were pounded with APs from the Yamato, which let the shells go through without causing explosive damage. It bought the sailors a little more time to fight back.

Duman
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 14:59:56 (ZULU)

Catshooter and Travis..

Thank You.

medicjim
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 16:11:56 (ZULU)

Sweet corn harvest started this A.M. Picked over 2,000 ears.

Will trade some for blueberries, Calvin. ;))

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 16:15:00 (ZULU)

Lito,

I think I just bought some last weekend at our local coborns,I will have to check tonight.

Im still waiting for my rifle,I think I have heard just about every excuse in the book.I did get a solid will be done on friday,and he said hes going to drop it off at my work.Im not holding my breath though.

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 17:31:29 (ZULU)

Lito, try REI or click my name. I have used them with great success in the wind.

Darren

Semper fi

85-90

Darren
East Bay, Ca, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 18:26:57 (ZULU)

Darren,

Are those an improvement over the old waterproof matches they used to sell? The box always fell apart before you could try the matches, and you couldn't strike them anywhere but on the box! Of course, once you tried to strike them, and the box actually survived, the match head would shatter.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 19:03:52 (ZULU)

Travis,

You must have learned to strike matches the same place I did.

Duman
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 19:40:53 (ZULU)

Ammo Country

Has anyone used or know anything about 223 ammo from Prvi Partizan (made in Serbia)? I'm looking for some to put back for just in case I need a bunch sometime. I've seen this advertised on AimSurplus.com and wondered about it. Also, does anyone have any good sources for ammo (223, 308, 45acp) other than Black Hills, Ammoman.com, Cheaper than Dirt, Sportman's Guide that you would be willing to share?

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Chris McHam
Northwest Louisiana, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 21:26:45 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Google "squirrel pole" or look it up in ol' survival pubs--then go forth and build a few. These things work like crazy, and yes, they DID make make 'em against the law in most places. But hey, will there be any tears shed over a few (dozen) dead squirrels?

Plinking one by one is fun, but the 6 peaches per day thing oughta make ya in a bigger hurry. Do the industrial squirrel reduction!

Chris McHam: Ammo prices are off the charts! I hope someone has a secret source of supply they'll share in response to your querry.

Dude...it is hard to ignore "McHam." But I imagine you've heard them all before...

Joe M
Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 21:40:47 (ZULU)

Squirrel pole w/drawing:

http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch08/asch08p06.html

Hey Joe, where did you hear about these?

SERE training or equiv?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 22:02:14 (ZULU)

Click for the ultimate mall ninja toy.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 22:10:54 (ZULU)

medicjim;

These folks have scope mounts and conversions for most any rimfire/air rifle.

http://www.bkltech.com

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2007, at 23:39:04 (ZULU)

Rod: I heard of these during phase 1 of the QC and at the recondo course; BUT:

I first heard of squirrel poles in Boy Scouts!

Joe M
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 01:15:23 (ZULU)

Technical data US 16 inch rifle:

Barrel length: 800 inches

Rifling: 144 lands & grooves, gain twist, 1 turn in 50 calibers at the chamber increasing to 1 turn in 25 calibers 2 calibers from the muzzle.

Pressure limit: 40,000 psi, working pressure 38,000 psi.

Weight of shell: 2400 lbs.

Muzzle velocity (approximate) 2700 fps.

Muzzle energy: 121430 foot-tons.

Charge: 850 lbs powder, type of powder not specified, expect to be large grain cannon powder.

WR Moore
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 03:29:25 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Is that how they were planning on getting the squirrels out of boy scouts?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 04:41:23 (ZULU)

Mark 7 16-inch/50-caliber gun

The Mark 7 16-inch/50-caliber gun was the primary armament of the IOWA-class battleships.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-7.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5397/16inch.htm

Range (Gun Mount Elevation = 45 degrees)

Armor Piercing 36,900 yards (21 miles)

Bombardment 40,180 yards (22.8 miles)

During Operation DESERT STORM battleships USS WISCONSIN and USS MISSOURI fired more than 1.000 rounds of 16" ammunition in support of ground operations. USS MISSOURI alone fired more than one million pounds of ordnance. Using Remotely Piloted Vehicles and Marine spotters ashore, targets included artillery, mortar and missile positions, ammunition storage facilities and a Silkworm missile site. USS WISCONSIN's RPVs provided on-site reconnaissance support from 11 nautical miles out for advancing Marines.

My comment - talk about unlucky, think about the mortar crew being targetted with 16" naval gunfire!

http://www.geocities.com/fort_tilden/16ingun.html

http://www.battleship.org/html/Articles/IowaClass/Main.htm

In 1969, Captain Edward Snyder of the New Jersey was quoted as saying that the AP shell is capable of penetrating up to 32 feet of reinforced concrete. The HC round carries a high-explosive charge of 154 pounds. The maximum rang eis 41,622 yards when fired with the normal propelling charge of 660 pounds, with a muzzle velocity of 2,690 feet per second.

Typical armor penetration of the 2,700 pound Mk 7 AP projectile is 14.5 inches of horizontal armor at a range of 42,300 yards (angle of fall is 53.25 degrees and a striking velocity of 1,686 feet per second.) At "point blank" range, with a striking velocity of 2,500 feet per second, the vertical armor penetration is 32.62 inches.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

The High Capacity (HC) shell can create a crater 50 feet wide and 20 feet deep (15 x 6 m). During her deployment off Vietnam, USS New Jersey (BB-62) occasionally fired a single HC round into the jungle and so created a helicopter landing zone 200 yards (180 m) in diameter and defoliated trees for 300 yards (270 m) beyond that.

Daisycutter? We don't need no stinking Daisycutter :-)

Added during 1950s Deployments

Nuclear Mark 23 - 1,900 lbs. (862 kg)

Nuclear Mark 23 - W23 warhead, about 15-20 kilotons

HE-ER Mark 148 (Planned)

13 in (33 cm) extended-range (ER), sub-caliber projectile with sabot. ET-fuzed with a payload of submunitions. Experiments with this projectile were conducted during the 1980s, but development was cancelled in FY91 when the battleships were decommissioned. Projectile weight without the sabot was about 1,100 lbs. (500 kg) and range was to be in excess of 70,000 yards (64,000 m) at a muzzle velocity of 3,600 fps (1,097 mps).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 05:13:01 (ZULU)

Ammo? What's that? Our PD doesn't have any. Well we have enough for our current cadet class to use and 50, yes 50, rounds for each officer to shoot during Inservice Training.

I can not believe you all can not find Strike Anywhere matches. They are in about every store in Texas. But they aint like the ones Darren posted about.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 06:21:21 (ZULU)

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

More useful data regarding the 16" L/50 Mk 7 All the other USN guns are listed off that page also, with some interesting details. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 07:57:31 (ZULU)

Even backassward Wisconsin has Blue Diamond farmer matches.

Dirty Steve...50 rds/man??WTF???Figured a city as big as yours the budget would be big enough to supply you guys properly.I know with the war goin on and all alot of LEO's who double as Reserves and are out on Active leave,fillin the uniforms is tough...but 50 rds?You cant protect a donut shop properly with 50 rds.....Much less yourselves.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi , USA - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 08:08:03 (ZULU)

Click for cool aerial photo of battleship firing the big guns.

My dad was on the Mighty Mo during WWII. He said that the muzzle blast was unpleasant.

CDC'
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 15:25:57 (ZULU)

Travis, I don't recall the old waterproof matches but these are good to go. The matches are strong, and the box comes with two striking pad which I use. The matches has yet to brake on me and the strike pad has yet to fail. This is how I have my setup. First, I have a bag of cotton balls that are dipped in vaseline - I have 6 balls in the bag. The matches are in a water proof hard case container with the strike pad set aside and protected. When I have used it, and not to frequently, on the first strike it lite up and its burn time was about 3 to 4 seconds, enough time for me to light up the cotton ball and start up the fire.

I hope this helps.

Darren

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 15:46:36 (ZULU)

CDC',

"....the muzzle blast was unpleasant."

Your dad had the gift of understatement. That shock wave could probably crush a man's skull.

Duman
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 17:23:01 (ZULU)

UnPat, Pretty damn funny aint it. If for the fact it was not the sad truth. The previous Commander of the academy. Spent too much money on other stuff and put off the annual order of ammo. When time to place the order came Suprise the cost was WAY higher than the previous year. Even with the tractor trailer load discount. The New Chief was unaware of the problem but when he found out someone was given a new job. Haha. So, now the order was placed but there will be a 4-5 month wait in delivery time. Oh it gives you quite a chubby to see a truck with that much ammo. 40 cal 223 Remington and 308 Winchester.

When that was put out in roll call yesterday by the Association rep every one said me and Chuck Hunt would be ok. I said, "Being a Red Neck who lives in the woods with too many guns pays off." They said how much ammo do you have? I said it ain how much I have it's how much can I load! The answer is, a bunch. Ha

The said truth is our Department was so badly mismanaged that our new Chief had to set priorities. He has done a great job so far.

Oh POLICE INTELL INFO.. The Aryan Nation is attempting to collect names of police officers from around the country and search data bases to locate them. They will also attempt to folllow them home. They are planning on doing property crimes against them and attempting to locate guns. (But the could plan worse)......... Anyone following me I don't recognize maybe screwed. Once I turn on to the long dirt road they will be mine. I will turn a corner shut off my lights and take care of bidness. I have selected two prime locations for this. You guys living in town becarefull and take a couple screwy turns just to see if some one is following you.

Wow, I posted something worth a damn for a change.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
Texas, USA - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 17:34:03 (ZULU)

Guys check this out,video of a guy and his 45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-T0OQZIbhg

Jon Kujawa
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 17:36:32 (ZULU)

B to B- in shooting. NBD.

Solid F in weapons manipulation.

CDC'
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 19:26:09 (ZULU)

From Michael Bane's blog (13-Jul-2007):

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/

Jim Cirillo, the legendary member of the New York City Police Department "Stake Out Squad" in the 1970s, was killed yesterday in a car-truck collision in New York...Jim was 76.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1865447/posts

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Cirillo_Jim_8220901.aspx

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 21:25:53 (ZULU)

And the winner of the douchebag competition, group division is..... click.

This wouldn't be so funny if it weren't for the title of the video. I get the feeling they wouldn't be any faster with shotguns in a horsetrailer.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 21:52:41 (ZULU)

CDC',

"Solid F in weapons manipulation."

I wonder who taught him to pull the gun to his chest and keep the weapon pointed downrange. Muzzle control is lacking.

Duman
Friday, July 13, 2007, at 22:40:14 (ZULU)

re: shooting carts

Rugged Gear is running an unadvertised introductory special

on their "new color" shooting carts (navy and burgandy).

Current solitary color available is green.

I spoke to Ronelle in sales.

Just the ticket for 1-2 long guns plus gear in a known distance range environment or IPSC 3-gun match.

$189 with shipment in August for the 15100 package including protective cover and accessories bag. Transport charges extra.

15100NAV is the navy blue version.

http://ruggedgear.com/shooting_cart.php

http://ruggedgear.com/documents/Shooting_Cart_flyer.pdf

I've ordered one for myself, even with the high shipping cost to Canada.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 13, 2007, at 22:42:10 (ZULU)

Duman: Just one mistake after another. This guy needs to take the training.

Click for an old-time trick-shot artist.

CDC'
Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 03:02:46 (ZULU)

Ok, not trying to be a smart ass here, help a dumb guy out and critique this dude for me. Other than being unfocused on the muzzle and a little tenative and too casual in general, what about his techinique needs work. I can`t really tell by the quality of the video what his hits look like, but what should we be seeing here? Thanks, SR.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 06:53:22 (ZULU)

BTW, that was what is known as "softball country" for those of you in the know, requested by those of us not so in the know. Remember, you heard it here 2nd. thanks.

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg , PA, USA - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 06:57:30 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Glad to hear Big Boss has head on straight...It makes a big differance too and I would love to see a 53 footer in my drive full of 308 and .45...Serious party at my place when that day comes..LOL....,, 4-5 month fill time????Knew the war was hittin ammo prices but thought the reserve pile was bigger:(...Want to wish ya luck on A.N. problem too...and thats all I am gonna say on that,Dont want to jinx ya.

308 Factory Ammo: Rem 150grSp Core lok,Blaine's Farm and Fleet $13.99/Box vs Gander @ $19.99 for same thing.....I left Blaine's w/2 boxes on the shelf....LOL.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 07:15:16 (ZULU)

Youz guys need to get with the program on these instructional videos.......

Professional training video......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTnrxN5lnB8&mode=related&search=

My 'for purely wasting ammo' video........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHtdHPCCWfs

I hate work safe videos.........

The summer garden wilt is in full swing so me and girlfriend are canning shit fast as we can pick it. Must get back to shooting soon.

Bolt headed for the bean patch and out!

Bolt
Pickin and cannin.......no time for shootin in......, NC, - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 11:21:10 (ZULU)

In stress situations you revert to the habits you "burn in" in practice. Last year my hunting buddy's dog flushed the most spectacular flight of pheasants I've ever seen - or heard of - while I struggled to release the safety of my 870. But I wasn't carrying a 870. I was carrying a Weatherby Orion O/U.

Good thing the pheasants weren't shooting back.

I swapped off the W'by and bought a $300 870 from Wally World.

Bill Jordon used to tell a story of a Border Patrol agent who finished a fight with a shirt pocket full of brass that he had saved for reloading.

Gotta love that.

So the guy in the youtube video is "burning in" the manipulation drill demonstrated. I assume that this guy is training to fight. There are standard manipulation drills for fighting. This guy isn't using them.

CDC'
Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 11:23:10 (ZULU)

WAKE 'EM UP!!

http://users.rcn.com/sitzkrieg/war/gatlinggun.wmv

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 13:26:28 (ZULU)

'lito, Ken, Lindy....this will mean something to you guys....

KE5OVT/temporary AG.......as of about an hour ago!!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 18:08:27 (ZULU)

Congrats, Amigo!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 19:41:35 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Congrats. It means some thing to me too. It means a Bud will get to buy more toys. And that makes me happy. Ha

Dirty Steve

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, July 14, 2007, at 21:53:00 (ZULU)

My wife rented "Shooter". I got six minutes in to it. It sucks.

CDC'
Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 03:55:02 (ZULU)

I liked "Shooter", but the story *was* very different from "Point of Impact".

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 03:58:57 (ZULU)

Here's the douchebag link I accidentally omitted earlier.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 05:02:01 (ZULU)

Imagine that you are some dumb kid living in some s***hole in the Middle East who has been pumped full of glue-sniffer cult religion and insane propaganda from the time you were born. Further imagine that you see "The Great Satan" confessing to it's crimes in an American made movie. In "Shooter" the viewer is meant to cheer the horrible and well deserved deaths of American soldiers.

Technically, it is completely stupid from start to finish.

"Shooter" sucks. Hollywood is a cancer.

CDC'
Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 05:35:16 (ZULU)

Thanks 'lito, Steve didn't know you were a well you know what I mean.. cause if I use either of the names we're called ....oh the poopie will never end! :-)

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 13:21:45 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Congrats! I know that took a bunch of work. A friend I used to fly with in the Navy is one of THOSE!

Time to go teach a CCW class.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 13:42:29 (ZULU)

Congratulations, Sarge. I chased dits for the old Army Security Agency for five years in interesting places back in the seventies but I never persued it as a hobby. Enjoy.

Bill Adcox
Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 15:15:07 (ZULU)

Sarge: Congrats! Very cool. It's a great skill to have.

Hank
Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 17:17:05 (ZULU)

Strike anywhere matches:

Surplus stores seem to carry them.

Hank
Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 17:22:30 (ZULU)

Thanks all! I've been chasing this particular ticket for over 30 years! It was the CW that always bit me in the behind! BUT when I found out, about 2 months ago, that the FCC had done away with the requirement for CW in ALL CLASSES and narrowed the classes down to 3, Tech, General and Extra, I got into it again and well now have the General. Extra...we'll see!

Thanks again!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 20:26:00 (ZULU)

Sarge: Congrats!! - hey - just becuz the FCC dropped the code requirement - doesn't mean that Sarge won't learn CW--- You gotta get that one too... You'll make the old Army Signal Corps guys proud :)

All - go checkout the pistol raffle site...

click on my name or go to: http://www.pistolraffle.com

Got all the kinks worked out... Now you can pay by check or pay by paypal.. I gotta a sh*t load of ticket numbers to generate this weekend too :)

Take care all

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 20:54:07 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

I am proud to report that the rodent force operating in my AO has been rendered "combat ineffective". All units destroyed through precision, direct fire.

Objective "peach tree" is secure.

medicjim
Sunday, July 15, 2007, at 23:44:26 (ZULU)

Shooter..... I like it for what it appears to be to me atleast. A guy movie not a chick flick. Guns, bombs and broads. I like it......

Oh, I went pistol shooting. Shot my race gun. During the mover I shot so fast on the 10 and 15 yard stage one of the other good shooters(he's real good) said." If you shoot faster I bet you can throw an eight." I dorpped 23 points on the Practical Event. I shot the 50 yrd line standing no prone for me yet. Actually I forgot my shooting mat.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 00:09:56 (ZULU)

I would STILL kinda like to see a Riffle Raffle fer Sniper Country...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 03:21:55 (ZULU)

"I would STILL kinda like to see a Riffle Raffle fer Sniper Country..."

Well - I have a pre-ban Steyr FAL that's here on consignment... Do you all think that'd generate at least 200 tix..??? some folks ain't semi auto fans... However - 200 tix would easily pay the owner for that riffle, and the rest could go to SniperCountry staff (not me).

Whadaya think?....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 04:25:50 (ZULU)

Sounds like a plan.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 05:03:46 (ZULU)

Ken,

I'm in. I think it would work out.

Duman
Monday, July 16, 2007, at 16:12:32 (ZULU)

Well the wait is over,My rifle was dropped off by hand on friday,if somone could help I would like to post some pictures so you guys can see it.

Thanks jon

Jon Kujawa
Monday, July 16, 2007, at 17:50:29 (ZULU)

Guys,

What all would I have to do to become a commercial ammo manufacturer? I'm mostly looking at doing cowboy ammo and blanks for mounted shooting. Can't find a decent job, so I guess I'll just create one!

I'm just hoping someone here would know where to start.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 19:15:01 (ZULU)

Travis:

First issue if you're interested in becoming a real commercial ammunition mfgr is find an insurance carrier. Easier said than done.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 19:25:37 (ZULU)

breaking news:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13685005/detail.html

Police Blame Sniper For Shooting Woman Inside Restaurant

Police Searching For Victim's Husband, David Munis

Cheyenne police are searching for a National Guardsman suspected of killing his estranged wife at a restaurant in Cheyenne Saturday morning.

Police said 36-year-old David Munis shot 40-year-old Robin Munis using a high-powered rifle from outside the restaurant where she was singing with a band. Officials said she was shot in the head.

Authorities said Munis has military sniper training. He is a second lieutenant in the Wyoming Army National Guard.

"I saw a couple of guys right here pull out their machine guns. I knew it was something serious there," a witness said.

David and Robin Munis were recently separated, officials said. Police said Robin Munis had complained about receiving harassing phone calls from her husband as recently as Friday.

Police described David Munis as very dangerous.

Anyone with information about his whereabouts should immediately call their local authorities.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 19:27:47 (ZULU)

Ken, I don't particularly want an FN, but I'll buy a ticket.

More good news: Labor Department Announces It Will Revise

Overreaching OSHA Explosives Rule

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 21:40:18 (ZULU)

url for Labor Dept and OSHA ammunition regs re-think

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1866766/posts

http://www.nraila.org/images/osha.pdf

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 16, 2007, at 22:24:45 (ZULU)

Rod,

Been catching pieces of that story today: Single shot, through (likely) tempered glass door, to wife's mellon while she was on stage. Dunno what rifle he chose to use yet---but shooting thru glass and hitting a head @ 100 yards---I have to assume the stage was not backed up to the door too--so the bullet probably traveled some distance after the barrier--all that makes for some serious variables. Your average 308 wouldn't reliably make a shot like that.

(or as Yote would say: "The bullet's gotta go somewhere")

It got me curious, that's for sure.

Joe M
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 00:50:52 (ZULU)

Im looking to reduce the cost of ammo and need some suggestions.

I buy the .308 175Gr (308GM2) federal match and the .223 GM223M3 round and dont like paying $2 and $1.50 per round respectively.

Can anyone suggest where i can get a good price on a case or two or four?

Jeff
San Jose, Ca, us - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 02:00:18 (ZULU)

Joe:

There is specialty ammununition for penetrating glass, but concur based on what I've read, shooting thru glass with .308 Win with target any distance behind glass is not a very certain thing.

It's going to be interesting to see how the details on the story develop - the reporting seems to be just a little too cut and dried implication so early in an investigation.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 02:30:40 (ZULU)

Obviously angle and barrier thickness have a factor...but what are some of the other complexities that come into play???And what makes it so difficult for a .308 to penetrate glass reliably?....Thought the .308 was the caliber of choice for many Law Enforcement Agencies...

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 04:24:08 (ZULU)

*********************SPEW ALERT**********************

Click. Funny shit. Anti-gun commercial.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 05:09:01 (ZULU)

UnPat:

The material I've read indicates that .308 Win will go thru most "normal" glass, but the kicker is where the projectile goes after that, and how intact it will be after punching thru the glass.

Part of the reason why .308 Win is the choice of police agency marksmen is the rapid incapacitation performance with a torso hit, which is not the case with say .223 Rem.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 05:39:20 (ZULU)

Rod: The issue isn't bullet integrity---it's deflection. A matchking may shed a jacket, deform, or blow right thru intact---ya never know. But that is just a small part of the rest of the problem.

Bobby had us shooting annealed glass at 100yds, set about 1 yard in front the targets, with the outer end of the firing line having a greater angle of incidence. With just three feet to travel after impacting the medium, bullets were keyholing sideways at the targets, and deflecting as much as 6" from POA. Even with the relative "straight on" shots, there was vertical displacement. Glass is funny stuff to shoot thru. The millisecond stretch on impact begins the deflection, and this varies with where the glass in anchored in relation to the strike, etc etc. In short, counting on a head shot is long odds.

I'm only concerned with what my little 308 bullet does thru glass, and base this on that. But I imagine that a heavy-ass bullet might do better. hell, maybe he shot her with a sharps??? Heheh.

UnPat: (edited to add details): A 308 will get thru glass as well as anything else. But we tend to chamber "accurate" boolits--which may not be the best constructed boolit for punching stuff enroute to target. The boolits designed to hold together and retain mass don't seem to shoot as straight so we don't play with those so much. Bullet selection bites the rifleman's ass when glas barriers get in the way! Glass is weird stuff too---a liquid solid. Generally, a glass door will be tempered glass, a bit harder than the household stuff for safety purposes. No matter how carefully you set up a shot thru glass, the bullet's path is going to alter for a variety of reasons. First, like you said, is angle of incidence. As quick as a projectile smashes thru, it is still a linear series of events with initial impact fllowing Newton's laws: The glass moves with the bullet. This creates a small, new angle of forces for the boolit--and are much harder to predict. The glass is more rigid nearer the framing, so this "stretch" is uneven. The front of the boolit slows slightly while the back is still kicking right in---yaw sets in. Glass reaches breaking point and the spalling takes on the boolit's new velocity out the backside. Now, we have a projectile(s) that may be exchanging front for back, popping out the path of least resistance (which may be angled along the long axis of glass away from the nearest anchor points) going where it may please. Now, the closer the intended target is to the glass, the less any of that matters---but the more distance you have, the less likely you are to hit said target. Angle of initial shot to glass increases all the variables as well. Angling thru glass is bad ju-ju beans. At some point any bullet will bounce off any glass---and increased angles that will penetrate also add to the amount of penetration needed, robbing both velocity and jackets at the same time! How thick is the glass? Is it annealed, tempered or harder stuff still? Even knowing this stuff---the boolit may still blow up on intitial impact!

I like Bobby's solution (and that of LE): Have a buddy send one at the same time, same POA, side by side at the FP.

Joe M
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 05:54:04 (ZULU)

Joe,Rod...

Thanks,I knew the .308 can punch glass...But its where it went after that....even for a straight on shot.Some time back on the L.E.side of the Federal site they had some nice pictures of gel blocks,differant barriers...differant angles...differant calibers,Mostly 9mm,.45ACP and the 223.But there was very little info to get a clearer picture.

If you were to look at the site now alot of the gel block pics were removed and its mostly data tables...Great reading...But I still read Playboy for the pics...

Yes,I know the main point is to keep the greater portion of civilians stupid and from trying this at home.

Thanks again,

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 08:02:37 (ZULU)

I've got a browning A-bolt in .22 rimfire which appears to have a damaged crown. Does it make sense to have a smith recrown it? If so, is there a reasonably priced smith that would do the work?

medicjim
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 15:44:01 (ZULU)

Morning guys, seeking some opinions. I am bouncing around the idea of changing my stock from the traditional m40a1 to either the McMillan A-5 or AIW 1.5. What are your thoughts and opinion. Right now I am leaning toward McMillan.

Darren

Semper Fi

85-90

Darren
East Bay, CA, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 16:16:43 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

Since the crown is already damaged, I don't see how you'd be hurting anything by trying to re-crown it yourself.

I'd suggest a turnip shaped or ball shaped dremel stone. I think the white ones are the soft ones, but I'm not certain. Or maybe one of the bigger ones in a high torque, low speed drill.

I've not tried this, but was giving some thought to re-crowning a Mauser I had at one time.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 18:09:41 (ZULU)

Medic Jim

In Rahway there are quality gunsmiths. Taking the Garden State Pkwy south they are very close to the exit, easy to find.

It's called the New Jersey Firearms Guild

732-382-4066

344 St. Georges Ave

Rahway NJ 07065

Congrats on solving the Squirrel situation, must have been touch and go there for a while

Doug

doug sickels
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 18:10:52 (ZULU)

Fox reports that the NG shooter used a .257---both weatherby and roberts were mentioned, but ol' Roy's favorite creation is more likely of the two. Either has velocity to spare....bullet had to be constructed outta woodpecker lips to get thru, eh?

Fox made a funny choice of an "expert" to explain to us how easy this shot is to make.

The guy musta stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night---cuz expert he is not. I swear, he sounded like he's read three or four issues of Guns and Ammo to get qualified to make an ass of himself. I should know, that was me not too many years back. Heheh! Digression: I can't imagine any situation making you so fully aware of your ignorance than the first 90 days on an A Team. Brutal:)) Anyway, this guy thought the glass door was an 'advantage" for the shooter. Cuz it made the target easier to see! He also said the shot was basically a 7-8 yard deal cuz he probably used "4-6x" optics. I guess good scopes grab yer target and drag it nearer to make it easy to hit. Who knew???

There's something about this story that fascinates the hell outta me. If you ever did new math as division of marital property--you probably know what I mean:))

Joe M
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 18:44:56 (ZULU)

Another good video. *****SPEW ALERT*****

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 18:50:40 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Speaking of which, anyone seen 'lito?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 18:57:57 (ZULU)

Travis: He's lurkin'

UnDude, Bravo, and anonymous "other folks": My email is acting up---it is a one-way deal right now. Email in---none goes out. I messed with settings, and finally sent everything, and received "undeliverable" messages for my troubles. But, email since this tinkering seems to be working. Sorry for the silence in replies; but I am working on it!

Update: Either "attachments" screw it up, or taking addresses off my contacts screws it up--or both. Received an unsolicited "update" from MS prior to the failure---yes, it is outlook. Anyone else have a similar problem? Better yet--a solution?

Joe M
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 19:21:19 (ZULU)

Travis...

I "r" here!

I'm just up to my ear lobes in legal shit - I have a big hearing next monday (if they don't postpone it AGAIN).

Plus, last summer, when I was doing some research on a petty lie my ex told the DCF, I uncovered that she had swindled the town of Stratford out of $300,000 (Yes, Martha, THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS US$) in a false injury claim against the town (can you spell "Whiplash").

So I went down to the town last week, and dropped dime on her, with a four page sworn affidavit ;)))

(Pat (HA!)... That calls for a TRIPLE HA!!!)

The supervisor wasn't there, so I think that I may hear something in the next few weeks. I gots my fingers crossed.

Back to legal poo-poo...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 19:45:37 (ZULU)

Well 'Lito, I guess there are "some" advantages to marrying Satan.

I did a lot of glass shooting experiments back in the day, vs tempered, laminate, glass block, various angles and thicknessnes, etc etc. 308 is OK, better than the magnums actually, because of less stress on the bullet. A 50cal or 45/70 works much better'er though.

.257 wouldn't be my cal of choice in any case. That would range from 250/3000 to 25/06 to 257 STW, just not a good idea.

Most buildings are going to use laminate glass for windows IME. Didn't really notice any real world differences on tempered vs laminate, thickness,angle and glass/target standoff were what mattered. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 20:22:38 (ZULU)

Ken M...

>"Well 'Lito, I guess there are "some" advantages to marrying Satan."<

Yeah, but I didn't get any of it - you think she could have bought me a new Hummer to keep my mouth shut ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 20:42:18 (ZULU)

'Lito-count your blessings, given the current price of petrol, buying you a new Hummer would have been another GOTCHA! for the ex.

BTW, if you can find out who carries the liability insurance for the local burg, you might find them much more intersted in the incident than the local burg. After all, it was their money.

WR Moore
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 21:51:37 (ZULU)

Ken M: My first thoughts when this story broke was army trained= 308, but a "sharps" would get'er done betterer!

But a 12ga slug ought not be discounted, either. They plow thru barriers rather well while not paying as much attention to deflection:)) Mass is a wonderful thing, and it ain't just for sundays!

Will be playing spring experiments with my Para 13 tomorrow. I put the wolf kit 22# in, and it seemed to work right off. But after the session, a thought crept into my head: The slide was not really "bumping" the stops at the back end of travel--it felt strange. Marginal action perhaps---may only just be getting that next round. Gonna try a slightly lighter bullet and see if this is too much spring. I want a gun to function for 230s flawlessly, but oughta workie with 200s as well. At any rate--para undersprung most of their line. I bet the 20# is the ticket. We shall see. And the 10% over magazine springs keep the next round moving up for the faster return to battery--the stock spring (or at least the mag I left stock) wouldn't always feed.

Next project: Steel targets on the range! I got some industrial rack frames (end units) to use as target frames--hang a pair of 20x40s in each, or maybe gongs. Was thinking an old sewer lid would make a nice 1000yd target too. Gonna do this on the cheap!

Joe M
Tuesday, July 17, 2007, at 23:20:26 (ZULU)

Just a quick drop by to note that my email has changed. Send me a line and it will be forwarded to me by my old account. Who do I see to officallly chnage my email account?

Kitty Whacker - See you are still having "fun" with dame hell.

Hi to all you guys on the Rooster. Been a bit busy plying "army instructor". Had one of the student's fathers, who won the DSC in Viet Nam with 5th Group ask me if I really got paid to do this. Had to admit yes I did. :)

For you acronym freaks, SOTIC no longer exists, is now SFSC or Special Forces Sniper Course. Change for change sake.

Getting old and cranky, my kindly old gentleman face is starting to wear. :)

You guys Hold Hard and stay safe.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 05:03:30 (ZULU)

JoeM.....If I remember correctly, manhole covers and sewer covers are cast, not forged. Be a shame to go to all the trouble to liberate some, then have 'em shatter on you.

Steve the hygenically challenged one is in the midst of the "I want another rifle" itch. Local shop has an AR50 for $2100. Everyone give him your opinion. He's mewling that a .338 might be "more practical". Nah......Do It.....Do it! 50-cal, you ain't got a hair on your a**.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 06:13:10 (ZULU)

I need some reassurance here. Or perhaps some sort of your not alone here speach. Ok, are all children destined to make thier parents old before thier time? I am 45yrs old. By the time I reach 46 I will be a GrandPa. Which will make me old like Bolt, Chuck and others. This will force me to loose wieght and get in shape so I can be a good long lived GrandPa. How damn inconsiderat is that? I know know why when I told my son about how strick my father was he looked at me like I was nuts. Your Dad isn't strick I have never seen him do anything but laugh, sleep and drink three pots of coffee in a day. I now realize the between my brother and me we just plain wore him out. He probably wants to be stern with us but just doesn't have the inner strength any more. I am too young to be a Gramps........Grrr, I still gots my factory teeth and all.

Oh, what set me off on the GrandPa thing was also the fact the local gun store has a New/Used AR-50 in. Sold to a guy that never fired it. So it is used but new. So do I put the money aside to help the youngin when the time comes. We all know it will come. Or seriously concider the new gun?

JoeDucos, Thanks fer the shirt.

RickB, Glad all is well. Keep up the good work.

JoeM. Is the slide battering the frame? If not I would go to a lowwer spring rate. You will get less muzzle flip. I shoot a 10 lbs in my 38 Super. 115gr bullet going 1250fps. Have you picked up a sewer lid? Them things is really heavy. Just get a sheet of 3/8 plate and cut your own. This would run only about 70 bucks for the sheet. But I have not priced it in two years and steel has gone nuts in price. But you make a bunch of targets.

Lito, Most good sized towns are self insured. They keep a lawsuit fund. They will be eager at the thought of getting it back and possibly with interest. Our town will pay you 5K if your involved in an accident just to shut up and go away.

DirtySteve...........

DirtySteve
Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 06:16:01 (ZULU)

Chuck, You aint helping. Oh I won't be at work tomorrow. Gunna castrate a young man. Just kidding to late for that. At least he has been dating her for over a year.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 06:30:41 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Don't bother with the sewer lid. I bought cast iron skillets for gongs to practice with my single actions. I shot one with my .45 Colt from about 50 ft. or so, and it just punch a hole right through with a 250 gr. bullet over a max load of Trail Boss.

I always wondered about getting a worn out dozer blade and setting it on blocks for a long distance target. Tractor buckets or old residential size propane tanks would also be good sources for the metal. If you ask around, there are probably some tractor salvage yards close to you. Gravel pits tend to just park and abandon stuff, too.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 07:22:59 (ZULU)

Hiya, Rick!

Charles, Travis: Too brittle to shoot, eh? I was hoping that at a K I might get away with it. But it won't do to break one after all the trouble of welding chain to it...

I have a scrap yard that charges by the pound for pick up---20 cents last i checked. Or, you drag in an old car, and leave weighing slightly less, and they pay you the diff. It is hit-or-miss on what is available, but the old bridge girders from old 53 are making their way in that yard. Cutting it into usable shapes is the challenge. Time to make friends with the motor pool at the local engineer battalion I guess:))

Joe M
Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 07:47:59 (ZULU)

Joe,

I wanna get ahold of one of those big ass sheets of steel the city uses to cover holes in the road. You know, the ones you could cover a full size truck with?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 08:05:53 (ZULU)

Joe M.

Isn't there a military surplus ( salvage yard) over at Sparta Wisc. Might be worth checking into. I could get a hold of my cousin in Tomah if you want, he would know.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 12:28:30 (ZULU)

Kindly Old Ranger Rick: It's good to see you. We all wish you stupendous success in your work and hope you can make time to post.

From an interview by ABC News reporter and Bin Laden groupie John Miller:

Miller: Describe the situation when your men took down the American forces in Somalia.

Bin Laden: After our victory in Afghanistan and the defeat of the oppressors who had killed millions of Muslims, the legend about the invincibility of the superpowers vanished. Our boys no longer viewed America as a superpower. So, when they left Afghanistan, they went to Somalia and prepared themselves carefully for a long war. They had thought that the Americans were like the Russians, so they trained and prepared. They were stunned when they discovered how low was the morale of the American soldier. America had entered with 30,000 soldiers in addition to thousands of soldiers from different countries in the world. ... As I said, our boys were shocked by the low morale of the American soldier and they realized that the American soldier was just a paper tiger. He was unable to endure the strikes that were dealt to his army, so he fled, and America had to stop all its bragging and all that noise it was making in the press after the Gulf War in which it destroyed the infrastructure and the milk and dairy industry that was vital for the infants and the children and the civilians and blew up dams which were necessary for the crops people grew to feed their families. Proud of this destruction, America assumed the titles of world leader and master of the new world order. After a few blows, it forgot all about those titles and rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace, dragging the bodies of its soldiers. America stopped calling itself world leader and master of the new world order, and its politicians realized that those titles were too big for them and that they were unworthy of them. I was in Sudan when this happened. I was very happy to learn of that great defeat that America suffered, so was every Muslim. ...

...Miller: In America, we have a figure from history from 1897 named Teddy Roosevelt. He was a wealthy man, who grew up in a privileged situation and who fought on the front lines. He put together his own men - hand chose them - and went to battle. YOU ARE LIKE THE MIDDLE EAST VERSION OF TEDDY ROOSAVELT.

(My emphasis.)

Now, given the above OBL quote, how do you think the Democrats' proposed "responsible strategic redeployment" would be viewed? What happens then?

CDC'
Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 12:56:15 (ZULU)

Joe, Travis,

Manhole covers shatter even at 1000 yds even with a 308. Plus they just don't seem to have that nice ring of a 3/8 hot rolled sheet of steel.

Travis,

Street plate is good stuff but heavier than all get out. Has a nice ring to it.. but it's hardened and any steel bullets will bounce off. Bad thing about that is they often bounce straight back. Don't ever shoot at one under 300 yards... The 3/8 stuff well hung, you can get away with shooting it up close..

Check this out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

That's one lucky dude !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 13:08:14 (ZULU)

Joe M - Many of the larger fire departments now carry some form of cutting device. We have an exothermic torch that will cut plate steel like butter. If someone in my AO asked to have plate steel cut,, we'd have a field day...it's hard to find good stuff to practice on.

medicjim
Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 14:26:55 (ZULU)

*********Prayers Requested**********

Guys, bad news in my AO lately. Had a chemical plant explode a half hour north of us yesterday. Entire town evacuated.

Then, this morning, 3 A.M., 2 officers responded to shots fired, both were shot. I believe on was treated and released, the other was critical. Both lower torso hits. It was a murder suicide and, apparently, one other person shot but escaped.

Don't know what all happened, but it sure makes me wish people could ask for help before they make their lives and the lives of others worse, or end them.

Thankfully, me and mine are safe, but I'm thinking the wife will be more motivated to move to the sticks, like I want.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 14:34:10 (ZULU)

Rick, say it is not so? First they dump 8541 and now change SOTIC? Just not right. Take care and we will talk soon.

Joe, I will contact you when we get something more solid on my end. If I send email and it is not answered back in few days I will post note here. My cell number is on my website Tacticalintervention.com

Well bad and good news.

Bad is wife is going in for major surgery on 26 July and wont be working for atleast two months. Pray it all goes well. She is PIA but I love her and she puts up with me (Obviously not as bright as she looks)

Good news just got order for 620 slings for USMC DMR Rifles so working like dog here.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 15:04:18 (ZULU)

All -- sighhh.... CNN marveling at military sniper mindset, discipline, etc... over that Army Sniper that popped his wife.

These bastards gotta feed on something - right? bottom feeders need to eat too - or do they?

Take care all -- :)

Be sure to checkout the pistol raffle - to be drawn @ shot show 2008.

http://www.pistolraffle.com

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, VA, USofA - are there any leaders with Integrity out there??? - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 15:51:23 (ZULU)

My LAUGH FOR THE DAY...

>"... my kindly old gentleman face is starting to wear. :)"< ... Rick B.

HA! - I remember that face from way back, and it was dog ugly, and nothing kindly about it!

Rick... I think it is winding down, and this Goddamn thing should be over soon, and so far, I'm lookin' good for it.

If she winds up in "Da joint", then I'm REALLY lookin' good for it ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 16:10:47 (ZULU)

Joe M, you get the steel and need someone to cut it and can't find anyone local, I can either bring up a torch or my new plasma cutter and slice and dice the stuff.

Welding to cast usually comes off badly too. Pierce and bolt is better'er.

Junk yards up there are screwing you. Here, I get paid for bringing them scrap, basic steel is couple hundred/ton and aluminum is through the roof. Alloy steel gets a premium too. I also have a service that pays to pick up our used oil. I'm actually liking this recycling thing a bunch. Now, if we would just use our recycled fats to make explosives to kill savages like in the bad old days, I'd be ecstatic. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 20:16:01 (ZULU)

Metal Gongs - try the turntable thingie on the back end of a 18-wheeler tractor. The Sierra Vista Gun Club in Sierra Vista AZ has one at the 200 yard line. It's been there for at least 15 years. I figger the sloped armor effect keeps it from being torn up.

The club also has a painted rock at 545 yards that makes a very satisfying thump when hit with a Black Hills .308.

There was a place in Marin County near Two Rock that had a 3 foot diameter piece of 'armor' that has the center shot out of it. Took many years to do it.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, Kalifornya, USA!! - Wednesday, July 18, 2007, at 22:19:51 (ZULU)

Joe,

I've found that Bushhog blades make very hard and inexpensive targets. The larger ones, from highway mowers, are very hard and if you find some one who works for the Highway Dept., you might be able to get their used ones for nothing.

They are smaller but easy to hit at 400 yrds with a good scope. Let them hang loose and they will withstand a hit from a .50 BMG without even getting a dimple in them. Ask me how I know. Even armor piercing stuff won't hurt it. They're hard enough to make a resounding ring when hit. Loads of fun.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 02:35:13 (ZULU)

JoeM, You can get a sheet of 4'X8' plate from a local steel supplier. 1/4" will run about 70 bucks 3/8 should be about 80. Then take it to a local sheet metal shop. They can shear the metal in about a second to the sizes you want. It should run about 15 bucks. It will have a very clean edge. I learned to seek out these folks when I had a BBQ pit made. I had a shop shear s few pieces and break another sheet in to a big trough shaped piece. Made making the pit real quick and easy. Dad was a welder so he knew all this fabrication stuff.

Also a disc from a farm implement(Disc Harrow or some such name) works great but has a hole dead center. You could check around farm equipment dealers. They are about 18" round with a 3" hole in the center. Sometimes they crack and need relpaced.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
Texas, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 05:12:56 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Sonuvagun! I have a few older discs out back somewhere in the pasture. I also have a pile of some kinda railroad steel plates (4-6" wide) that could fill those holes too.

Ken M: My yard pays for scrap coming in---but it charges for scrap going out. I was thinking of exchanging a few old cars for some bridge steel (and a few bucks)--I may not have been lucid about that part. Once I scour the AO for available steel, I'll see what "prep" needs to be done. I will supply the beer, of course.

Roger: Been thinking about buying a bushhog for my JD. Clearing undergrowth with a chainsaw is a PITA. And I'm not talking weedwhacker sized growth:))

I'm still battling Box Alders too. Anyone know what is in the oil that coats the leaves??? That crap gave the boy and I one heck of a rash last year.

Para testing got rained on today. Hung a door instead:))

Joe M
Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 06:55:42 (ZULU)

Joe on boxelder vegetation:

Wikipedia says this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_ivy

Boxelder (Acer negundo) saplings can look almost indistinguishable from poison ivy. While box elder trees often have five or seven leaflets, three leaflets are also common. The two can be differentiated by the fact that poison ivy has alternate leaves, while the boxelder has opposite leaves; in other words, by observing where the leaf stalk (the "branch" the three leaflets are attached to) meets the main branch. Another leaf stalk directly on the opposite side is characteristic of Box elder. If the three-leaflet leaves alternate along the main branch, it may be poison ivy.

(Article has photos)

So you may have been actually dealing with poison ivy!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 12:09:01 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

I know you're trying to go cheap; but you might get some ideas from here:

www.mgmtargets.com

I think "Andy's dad" had one of these a long time back.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 15:03:30 (ZULU)

JoeM, I have some of those railroad plates too. They are a bit heavy. I welded up the spike holes by putting 3/8ths inch strap over them. The disc works well because it swings well when hit. Heavy plate just has to sit there and take the punishment till it gets fatigued and breaks. You could try using an old disc to fill the holes in the other ones used for targets. But I don't know how much punishment it would take before it fails since it is mild and welding it may weaken it more. You can hang it by drilling some holes in it and wiring it to a chain.

MGM targets. You can blast that crap from 10 yrds with a 308 or 223 and it just puts a minor blemish on it. That stuff is harder than a whore's heart. Our pistol club bought some of these and we field tested them.

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
Texas, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 17:49:48 (ZULU)

Guys,

Those blades from a disc are about $70, new. Not all that sure they'll take repeated hits from a rifle. The shape would cause me to worry about ricochets.

Joe,

If you have a bunch of those discs, you can probably trade them to your horseshoer for shoeing. They make the best hoofstands you can get. If you wanted to make up a few to consign at the feedstore, just weld a piece of pipe (1 1/2"?) into the hole, then put a square piece of hoof rasp on top of the pipe. I made mine with a piece of sucker rod inside the pipe, and welded the rasp to the top, with holes for a crosspin to adjust it, but that turned out to be superfluous. I ended up just cutting it to the height that worked the best for me. If you decide to do this, call me, I'll run out and measure my stand for dimensions.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 19:05:13 (ZULU)

My political post

Legislature alert! I typed this up, so read it!

Introduced May 8, 2007 – Last action: Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary – not currently scheduled for debate. This bill is in the first stage of the legislative process where the bill is considered in committee and may undergo significant changes in markup sessions. The bill has been referred to the following committees: Senate Judiciary.

Sponsor: Dianne Feinstein

Cosponsors: babs boxer, hitlery clinton, christopher dodd, richard durbin, ‘chappaquiddick’ kennedy, frank lautenberg, carl levin, robert menendez, barbara mikulski, and little chucky schumer.

Note!!!: Members of that committee:

patrick leahy (chairman), ‘chappaquiddick’ kennedy, joseph biden, herbert kohl, dianne feinstein, russell feingold, little chucky schumer, richard durbin, benjamin cardin, sheldon whitehouse, arlen specter (president), orrin hatch, charles grassley, jon kyl, jeffersion sessions, lindsey graham, john cornyn.

S. 1331: A bill to regulate .50 BMG caliber sniper rifles

S 1331 IS

110th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 1331

To regulate .50 BMG caliber sniper rifles.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

May 8, 2007

Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself, Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. LEVIN, Mr. MENENDEZ, Ms. MIKULSKI, Mrs. CLINTON, Mr. DURBIN, Mrs. BOXER, Mr. LAUTENBERG, Mr. SCHUMER, and Mr. DODD) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To regulate .50 BMG caliber sniper rifles.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Long-Range Sniper Rifle Safety Act of 2007'.

SEC. 2. COVERAGE OF .50 BMG CALIBER SNIPER RIFLES UNDER THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968.

(a) In General- Section 921(a)(4)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by striking `any type of weapon' and inserting the following: `any--

`(i) type of weapon'; and

(2) by striking `and' at the end and inserting the following: `or

`(ii) .50 BMG caliber sniper rifle; and'.

(b) Definition of .50 BMG Caliber Sniper Rifle- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(36) The term `.50 BMG caliber sniper rifle' means--

`(A) a rifle capable of firing a center-fire cartridge in .50 BMG caliber, including a 12.7 mm equivalent of .50 BMG and any other metric equivalent; or

`(B) a copy or duplicate of any rifle described in subparagraph (A), or any other rifle developed and manufactured after the date of enactment of this paragraph, regardless of caliber, if such rifle is capable of firing a projectile that attains a muzzle energy of 12,000 foot-pounds or greater in any combination of bullet, propellant, case, or primer.'.

SEC. 3. COVERAGE OF .50 BMG CALIBER SNIPER RIFLES UNDER THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT.

(a) In General- Section 5845(f) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(f)) is amended--

(1) by striking `and (3)' and inserting `(3) any .50 BMG caliber sniper rifle (as that term is defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (4)'; and

(2) by striking `(1) and (2)' and inserting `(1), (2), or (3)'.

(b) Modification to Definition of Rifle- Section 5845(c) of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(c)) is amended by inserting `or from a bipod or other support' after `shoulder'.

SEC. 4. IMPLEMENTATION.

Not later than 30 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Attorney General shall implement regulations providing for notice and registration of .50 BMG caliber sniper rifles as destructive devices (as those terms are defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by this Act) under this Act and the amendments made by this Act, including the use of a notice and registration process similar to that used when the USAS-12, Striker 12, and Streetsweeper shotguns were reclassified as destructive devices and registered between 1994 and 2001 (ATF Ruling 94-1 (ATF Q.B. 1994-1, 22); ATF Ruling 94-2 (ATF Q.B. 1994-1, 24); and ATF Ruling 2001-1 (66 Fed. Reg. 9748)). The Attorney General shall ensure that under the regulations issued under this section, the time period for the registration of any previously unregistered .50 BMG caliber sniper rifle shall end not later than 7 years after the date of enactment of this Act.

I’ll be writing my notes to (Wh)orrin (Sn)hatch, you guys get your letters in!

Bravo
Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 20:15:20 (ZULU)

My personal post:

You all heard it here first: ‘Lito admits that part of the reason he’s nailin’ the ex is ‘cause she took 3 large and didn’t give him a hummer.

Packages – I still need to burn a CD (at least I got the files ready to burn), then I’ve got three packages ready to go out. Duman, you get the SPECIAL box. I’m starting a tradition here…. Keep the box, and only use it to send goodies to another shooter. One from the roaster would be ideal. I’ll let you in on the history of the box when you get it, but it’s WAY cool.

Dirty Steve – go with what our buddy Chuck said – the price on the 50 is good! Heck, I got mine about $25 under distributors cost, and it was still more than that. Sure hope things are going well for you there – Gramps ;-)

Sling swivels and such: I noted that the same kind of flush-mount swivel also failed on a certain Patron while I was hanging about. He caught the stick before it impacted, so nothing was lost really – other than I’m sure confidence in the sling swivels! Since he posted about swivels, I’ll leave it to his comments. Even so, I sure hope your wife comes out of everything OK.

As for me, some years ago I had a disturbing dream. Dreams for me only happen rarely, so when they do happen, I pay attention out of curiosity. In this dream, I was climbing a tall tower with Betty Lou slung (had to take a shot at the top of the tower), when one of my swivels gave way and she fell stories to land on the dirt. That’s a bothersome dream! So I checked into everything, and ordered some Wichita sling swivels. I found out the hard way that the A+ answer is to order your McMillan stock made with ‘em from the get-go, but since I hadn’t, Geoff did a GREAT job of retrofitting. To have a sling swivel come out would require removing a fist-sized chunk of stock, and the swivels themselves are sturdy enough to lock on to and pull a stuck Chev out of the mud.

I recommend that set-up. They’re not noisy, and even if they get that way there’s always the handyman’s best friend. What’s more, I don’t concern myself about pulling too tightly on the sling any more ;-) Marc, I do, to the extent of someone who has only experienced that once (and with a relatively CHEAP stick), feel your pain.

Hey Chuck, what’s this about racing mountain bikes in The Republic? I’ve lived all over that country, and never seen any mountains! Er, are you talking about the hills out by Big Bend? I think I’m gonna have to start doing ruck marches again, and the thought doesn’t really appeal to me. Wanna start an ambulance LOL! I’ve got a feeling you guys should invest in ibuprofen stock. This coming year, I’m not gonna allow myself to get so dogged. That’s not to be interpreted as a challenge to Rich though ;-)

Duman, a Caddy Shack quote? Am I the only guy that noticed that almost every Rodney Dangerfield movie ended with a party and a Journey song?

Jon, the new Lapua brass got treated to the Lyman M die only, so the neck expansion was done that way. I dunno about the ‘grip’ on the primer, but I’m beginning to formulate a new theory! I checked a few of the cases against my chamber and against SAAMI spec. The new cases were undersized. I’m wondering if that couldn’t have set up a headspace issue. Like I said, just a theory.

Rod, bulk reactants and surface chemistry? No, not at all. Not unless there is some kind of funky burn-rate modifier that is surface coated that I’m not aware of.

JR, thanks! Manners it was! Now what kind of weight can I get a 6.5mm bore down to, 0.650” at the muzzle of a 26” tube? BTW, the Manners stocks appear to offer about a 2 pound reduction in weight from the McMillan I was looking at!

Alliant powders – it appears things have changed from the last look I gave ‘em. Consider what I said before to be ‘out of date’. Man, things in this industry change quick!

Not like Bobby needs backing up, but my research as well indicates that the 870 is the top-notch pick in pumps. A couple of years ago, when I decided to give the shotgun a better try, I wound up breaking my 870. One of our own here –and the Smithy honcho at The Ranch- told me I was not only the first to break an 870 in that way he’d ever seen, I was the first case like that he’d ever heard of. I broke a hammer pin kind of. I asked if a Mossy military model would be more robust, and he answered definitively in the negative. Good ‘nuff for me! For a full-on build, I’d recommend my Almost Famous Uncle Hans (VangComp). Lots of stuff going on at his shop, with new products scheduled to come out between now and the first of 2008, including sights that are better than the current best. You’d recognize his stuff on the 870 I’ve got.

Ken, let me get a bit of dough in my pocket, I’ll be in on the Steyr. And the pistol. What the heck, a bullet has to go somewhere!

Patron Joe, after arguing on the internet with some obvious ‘experts’ on glass shooting, I finally got the straight dope – the shot was fired through an open window. And here all this time I’d been saying “I don’t buy it” about the through-glass stuff. Gee. They didn’t want to believe that 1” to 2” of deflection PER FOOT was possible – imagine! Maybe I shouldn’t have seen it with my own eyes LOL!

Bravo
Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 20:16:17 (ZULU)

Jul. 19, 2007 18:09 | Updated Jul. 19, 2007 21:51

Ahmadinejad: It's going to be a 'hot' summer in the ME

By JPOST STAFF AND AP

It's going to be a "hot" summer in the Middle East, said Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad following a surprise meeting with Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah in Damascus on Thursday evening, Channel 10 reported.

Nasrallah allegedly entered Syria via an underground tunnel, the television channel said.

"We hope that the hot weather of this summer will coincide with similar victories for the region's peoples, and with consequent defeat for the region's enemies," Ahmadinejad added, in an apparent reference to Israel.

Yup yup yup.....

Out here

Gooch
Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 20:45:17 (ZULU)

Bravo...

>"You all heard it here first: ‘Lito admits that part of the reason he’s nailin’ the ex is ‘cause she took 3 large and didn’t give him a hummer."<

Around here, that would be "300 large" - but youz guys have more money than us guys ;)

... and if she gave me a Hummer, I still woulda dropped a dime on the bitch, and flipped her the bird from my Hummer ;)

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 21:17:23 (ZULU)

Joe M,

The MGM targets are good. I have a 'pistol popper', which will handle a rifle slug if placed 100+ yds. out (per instructions). Some wanker shot mine last year, with a 270 from 10-yds. away. Didn't penetrate, but put a small, very shallow crater in surface. I wanted to put a small, shallow crater in wanker's head.

Once that surface is gone, i'll turn plate around. Supposed to be good for tens-of-thousands of rounds. Rustoleum makes it look pretty again, keeping rust at bay.

Expensive, but will last forever, with some care.

Duman
Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 21:34:29 (ZULU)

how many international sports can you have a successful 40-year "career"...

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=01fdf042-d555-4b01-ad4b-9fe368b0fb76&k=91421 or click my name

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, July 19, 2007, at 22:04:27 (ZULU)

Oh!

You meant THAT kind of hummer!!!!

If you ever go that route, there's a kansan outfit that stuffs duramax's in, but remember: Turbos are nice....but wouldn't you rather be blown?

Joe M
Friday, July 20, 2007, at 02:44:11 (ZULU)

All of this legal shit is going to drive 'Lito crazy. Next thing you know he'll be shopping for a Cheytac with a USO on it :)

I have a problem with my Redding competition bullet seater that I'm using for my new .243. It's the same die I use for my .260 and .308 but this one does not straighten the bullet before seating. They seat so far out of, uh, straightness(?) that you can clearly see it by looking at it point on. The sliding sleeve inside of the die does not work as the other two I have. The others are pushed up into the die when the shellholder makes contact with the bottom of the sleeve. With this one the sleeve goes up in the die when the shellholder is still 1/2 of an inch below it, then when the sleeve hits the top the bullet is seated by the last bit of ram stroke. This means the sliding sleeve mechanism doesn't have time to straighten out the bullet before seating. I called Redding and the gentlemen there said he couldn't understand what it would be and advised that I send it in with some of my sized brass and bullets. By the way it's unfired, FL resized Lapua brass and 115 DTAC (SMK I think) bullets with moly. I think maybe the sleeve is just a little tight inside.

I've been trying to set the bullet on the mouth as straight as possible and it's getting super tight little bughole groups for me but it's more time consuming to do it that way.

Rick- Good to hear from you, hope your well and I wish you had time to post more often. You'll never know how much I've learned from your posts over the years here on the Roaster.

I think I'm feeling confident in my sling swivels now. I put one of Mike's slings on my A5 GAP rifle and torture tested the hell out of them. I was really abusive with all of the yanking and popping against them and they stuck just like they're supposed to. That being said, I think I'll carry it slung muzzle down with the rifle behind me and my right hand will stay down under the scope so if it falls it's already in my hand.

On steel targets- I like these alot http://lvsteeltargets.com/main.htm

Kurt is a good guy and he shoots in many of our west coast matches. Even if you don't buy something from him you can get ideas on what to build yourself by looking at his photos.

Mike- Sorry to hear about your wife's upcoming surgery. I think you mentioned once that she works in the medical field so hopefully she can get solid info on who the best docs are and have it done in a good hospital. Connections in the medical bidness are a good thing!

I'm taking my little brother fishing this weekend in the bay around Alcatraz and under the Golden Gate bridge. Gonna give the rifles a little break for now so I can watch him get seasick in a little 2 foot wind chop LOL.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area CA, - Friday, July 20, 2007, at 03:41:47 (ZULU)

Do any of you gentlemen know anything about home security systems? I'd like to rig a couple of cameras than will come on when an intruder enters and will send the photos or video somewhere secure via the web.

During our distinguished Senate's sleepover/blather-a-thon, all of the honorable gentlemen were in agreement on one point: We are engaged in combat operations against al Qa'eda. Somebody explain to me why that is a bad thing.

Mike Miller: Major surgery is bad stuff. I hope Mrs. Undude has a quick and full recovery.

CDC'
Friday, July 20, 2007, at 09:52:04 (ZULU)

'Lito,

RE: PDAs. Just had one go belly up. Everything powers up, touch screen fails. Won't take input. Maybe if I had portable keyboard, might gain access. Otherwise, scrap material. Model: iPAQ-rz1710.

Good thing everything backed up on PC.

Duman
Friday, July 20, 2007, at 17:17:54 (ZULU)

Mike, I hope all goes well with the surgery.

CDC, I don't no squat about alarms but click on my name and maybe this carema system would be usefull. You could connect it to a hard drive type recorder and monitor the place while you were away. There should be a way to set it up to record only when motion is detected but that skill is above my pay grade.

Shooting those plow disc's. They should be fine as long as they swing freely. Chuck (Charles H. ) and I have shot one for several years and have not have a round come back. I would keep the shooting at 200 yards or more. We shoot them at 500 makes a nice whack when struck.

Bravo, I may buy it just cause it is looking like the demo's are not wanting me to have it. I was wanting to make a grown up decision about wheter to save money or spend on toys. The demo's make that a hard thing to do. I was leaning toward the 338 Lapua but I dunno. I just can not make up my mind. Maybe I should talk to my wife about my dilema. She may say get them both. I called he once "Just to say, I Love You". She asked if I was in a gun shop. I said yes. She asked how much. I said 1K. She said ok, and I hung up. Then called her back to say, "I Loves you" she said just one. I hung up again. HA..

I don't see how they can make you register something you already own. That would make it an ex-post facto law which is illegal. But that minor problems like that never stops the Gobernment.

DirtySteve.....

Dirty Steve
Texas, USA - Friday, July 20, 2007, at 18:46:32 (ZULU)

CDC, email sent. No attatchments.

Sean
Winnipeg, Mb., Canada - Friday, July 20, 2007, at 23:30:04 (ZULU)

>>>I don't see how they can make you register something you already own. That would make it an ex-post facto law which is illegal. But that minor problems like that never stops the Gobernment.<<<

The firearms act of 1968 did the same thing to H&R "Handy guns." They were smooth bore .410 pistols. You had to register then, destroy them, turn then in or rifle the barrel.

If you had any short barreled shot guns or rifles, the same applied... except for the 'rifling' part.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 02:38:41 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Pat has railroad plates that he was shooting long before I showed up and he and I have been shooting them for the last four years w .308s, 6.5 x 284, .260 rem and they hold up great. Like dirty steve said, they are heavy.

Pat II
Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 03:32:43 (ZULU)

Joe M: Tried to contact via cell, no go. Need to confirm addres for outgoing package and wife's shirt size. You still at the same spot?

Dirty Steve: No sweat, hope you enjoy it!

MarcS: Take the die apart and see if any crud has accumulated in it to give you that much runout, then clean as necessary.

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 09:27:29 (ZULU)

PatII,

These rr plates? Are they the same ones that have the square holes in the corners for the spike to go in and into the rr tie?I was gonna have some 1in plates cut for me....but if these work I think I know where I might find a few rr plates that were discards since there is a set of tracks out back...Wouldnt take much to hang these from an "A" frame....

And since we all seen the .50 cal riccochet vid....What would be the min distance for shooting a .308 at gong targets? 200 yrds?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 11:22:56 (ZULU)

Click for video of Blackwater "Contractors" engaging enemy.

I like how matter-of-fact they are about the whole situation.

CDC'
Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 12:59:17 (ZULU)

My next acquisition. Heheh

(click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 17:26:51 (ZULU)

Mk4,

Just the thing for goin thru Ill., and dealing with Chicago traffic,and tollbooths...Take 2 incase the first overheats.....LOL.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 17:47:06 (ZULU)

UnPat,

Can you imagine somebody crowding your bumper and then you let Ma Deuce outa the cage and let it do a 180! The applications would be endless. Heheh.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 19:09:34 (ZULU)

CDC',

Can you make out what scope he's using? Looks like it has a battery.

duman
Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 22:59:46 (ZULU)

Charles Hunt, and Dirty Steve, you guys may be able to point me in the right direction.

My dad and I own an industrial gas business in Houston. We sell lots of medical Oxygen, beverage Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen, and lots of Helium to anyone who fills balloons.

We just bought another Helium business in San Antonio, well actually in Castroville. Within the next three to four weeks we need to move the business from Castroville into San Antonio itself.

I'd like to move into something in the South part of the city if possible. So far, I've been unable to find anything, even with the use of a realtor.

I'm trying to find something from about 700 sq. ft. to maybe 1500 sq. ft. I would need either an enclosed warehouse area or fenced area to store the cylinders in.

Ideally I would like to find a strip warehouse with a small office and roll up doors to the storage area where I could back a truck into to load and unload.

I thought that maybe you guys may know someone with some property who may be in the market to rent to someone who pays rent on time and won't trash their place out.

If you know someone please email me at tburkes,at,sbcglobal,dot,net I had no idea it would be so tough to find a place in SA, but I've had no luck at all, heck, at this point we're looking at property to buy to move the business to. That would be an option too.

Thank you.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 23:02:19 (ZULU)

Duman: Click my name for my best guess. Gentlemen?

CDC'
Saturday, July 21, 2007, at 23:48:51 (ZULU)

***********SPEW ALERT**********

Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 00:18:26 (ZULU)

CDC, did any of that info in the email help?

Sean
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 01:00:46 (ZULU)

Is it just me or does that blackwater sniper have his scope mounted with the angle bass ackward. (line of sight/line of trajectory)?

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 01:36:47 (ZULU)

Tony, Why not just use the Castroville location? I live just NW of Castroville. Castroville has damn near no crime. In SA folks will always be looking for stuff to steal. I dont know of any place that would suit your needs but have not being looking. I can check the West Side. I know there is a closed RV dealer next to a gun shop. It could fill your needs maybe. I will see if it has a dock in the rear.

I used to work South but went back closer to home. Are you moving here? If so I will meet with you and hook you up with a 500 yd range. A private place south of SA. Range fee is pricey haha. 50 for the first year 35 after that. I will send you email directly Tuesday after I look at the property I am thinking about. I could even take a few photos and email them.

Dunman, That Scope looks like a Loopy if I aint mistaken with target turrets. Chuck has one like that he may chime in on the model.

DirtySteve......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 02:28:16 (ZULU)

While Castroville is nice, it's what, 28 miles or so from SA. The gas adds up, and that is where the majority of the customers are. Although if we can't find something in SA, it's up in the air.

I certainly do appreciate any help or information you can provide. I don't know SA at all, just from driving through on the highways, but my dad does, and is wanting to have the business on the south or east side of town, I'm not quite sure why. I don't want you to go out of your way, if you can give me an address to the RV place, I'll have it checked out by our driver who lives in SA.

My dad had five acres and a house in Bandera and just sold it for way more than he thought he ever would. We just got done putting stuff in a storage shed last week. He really likes the hill country and will probably be buying something there again. He likes to shoot as well. I'd be interested in the private range you talked about. Can you put up steel targets if you're a member? Ringing steel kicks paper targets ass all day long, in my book.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 03:27:44 (ZULU)

Tony,

I sent you a short note. If you get it and reply I will send my contact info inthe next one.

Yeah the South side has a lot of companys grabbing up property due to Toyota. Toyota and some of those companies could be possible clients. The address of the place I was refering to is in the 2400 block of SW Loop 410. Right beside the PowderHorn gun shop.

Glad your Dad sold his property for a good price. The market is drying up now. I go riding up there at the State Natural area some times. I love Bandera. A great little town with a neat mind set. Ride your horse to town. Eat and go to a bar then ride home.

Dirty Steve....

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 03:49:16 (ZULU)

Steve, got the note and replied to it.

Thanks for the information, I'll pass it on to him tomorrow about the vacant business. Being right next to a gun shop is a BIG plus in my book for sure.

Bandera is really neat place. If dad keeps going like he has been, he'll be a regular at the OST.

We're pretty good friends with the Bandera Bank president. Very nice guy, loves guns, hunting, and shooting. I talked him into shooting a match with me last year down at Rifles Only. I think I've got him hooked, he and dad will shoot the next one in November down there with me. If you need a banker I would look him up. When you go into his office he has two big European skull mounts of Cape Buffalo looking at you with two fine African rifles leaning against them.

I'm off to bed. I'm going on an offshore fishing trip in the morning, I sure hope I'm not pucking overboard all day long.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 04:23:11 (ZULU)

Tony: That shop Steve was telling you about might not be a bad idea. During business hours. you won't hve to worry too much, as there's a lot of heat gonna come down on thieves and robbers from next door. And, at night, your place would be in the care of the best cops in San Antonio, West Patrol. On the South Side, best area would probably be around the Military Dr./IH 35 area, as it's one of the busiest in the city, with all the bidness that comes with that. I'll start keepinn my eyes skinned back....

The Hill Country rocks. It's the last third of July, and I'm sitting here with the windows open, looking out the window at grass I gotta whack, again. I have deer that feed through every night. Possums,raccoons and various other critters compete with the cats for the food I put out every day. The lake, with a free county boat ramp, is 5 minutes away, and it's slopping over the sides with all the rain I've had. I live in a little subdivision that the Yuppies haven't discovered, yet, and the property prices aren't yet through the roof. Come up for a burger and a beverage some day, and look around.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 17:21:57 (ZULU)

For those who need something else to do, here is a copy of the "USAF

1951 Optical Resolution Target" to compare your Optics resolution.

http://www.6mmbr.com/targets.html

Scroll down a bit.

At 20X, the best my Leupold would resolve clearly at 200 yards was the # 4 pattern 0n the extreme right.

Old Unertl 24X Spotting Scope at the same distance would easily resolve the 3rd smallest # 4 pattern.

The Target is not to scale but makes for interesting comparisons.

Also good for setting / checking Parallax.

Regards & Good Shooting,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 17:50:44 (ZULU)

Regarding steel targets, I traded email with these folks:

http://lvsteeltargets.com/main.htm

The material is AR500, the same stuff MGM uses. Since they're located in Vegas, I might pick one up on the way home from Shot-08. Save shipping.

duman
Sunday, July 22, 2007, at 22:18:21 (ZULU)

CDC, Duman,

Scope is a Leupold MK4 LR/T with an illuminated reticle.

Don't know which power range it is.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 04:53:31 (ZULU)

Alright, this is too damn quiet! 1911 suck, Glocks rule, and Sarah Brady has a point.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 13:58:21 (ZULU)

Hey Charles thanks for the advice about coverage. I passed along you and Steve's recommendations to my dad this morning. We'll check it out. Since SA seems to be expanding in a westward direction, the gun shop location may be the way to go. I do like the idea of good police protection as well. When I do start making trips over that way, I'll get ahold of you and Steve for lunch, or whatever. I'll show you some of the nylon gear I make. There are several local LEO's that use my rifle covers and shooting mats, you guys may like them.

Please do keep your eyes peeled and let me know if you find something out. Heck, here's my cell number, it's listed on my business cards, so it's nothing secret. 281-386-9789

You are right, the Hill Country is very nice right now. It looks like a wetland everywhere. You wouldn't live near Medina Lake would you? We went driving around it about two weeks ago, man what a change over last year, the water level's almost back up to normal. It was down what 25, 30 feet this time last year? Come to think about it, it did seem like I saw a lot of tree hugger types around on the drive.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 15:47:09 (ZULU)

Tony,

I live near Medina Lake. It is only 1 1/2 miles straight line distance from me. I am a located S/SW from the elbow in the lake. If you noticed any signs for a place called Mountain Valley Ranch while you were driving around out there you could follow those signs and it will take you past my place. I put out a red mail box I made from 3/16" steel with a box for packages under it. We had some punks stealing mail during the holidays so I thwarted them by making something so big and ugly they would leave it alone.

The water was going over the spill way this weekend on Medina Lake.

I sent you an email with the exact location of the lot with Google Earth co-ordinates.

Dirty Steve.............

Dirty Steve
Mico, Texas, USA - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 17:33:41 (ZULU)

Well I just got back from Vacation. South Dakota has not changed much in 15 years. I planed on shooting some p.dogs but the wife told me we had no room for guns or ammo. This was the first camping trip out of state with our 5, 7 & 9 year old and they had alot of stuff to take along plus this was a family vacation so oh well. Of course on the way home the wife tells me we are making a detour to De Smet, SD then Waulnut Grove, MN and Pepin, WI to see all the Little house on the prarie locations. Oh boy what fun!!

So no Shooting but had a good time.

PS. There sure were a lot of p.dogs out there.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 18:15:30 (ZULU)

"Alright, this is too damn quiet! 1911 suck, Glocks rule, and Sarah Brady has a point."

Travis....You sure do like to stir the shit pot,don't ya?....LOL

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 18:54:36 (ZULU)

Several month's back, Lito mentioned that Meade had bought a bunch of the lesser optics companies and might be making some changes. I'm looking for a low powered optic for hunting applications....it needs to be weather-proof and moderate in cost. Has anyone encountered such an 'animal'?

medicjim
Monday, July 23, 2007, at 19:11:37 (ZULU)

No, didn't get out by your place, we were driving around the north end of the lake.

Ha, story about the mail box is funny. When we get together remind me to tell you the one about the punks stealing our mail box when I was a kid. It involves a 30/06, a .357 and a Dodge Maxivan redlining around Alvin in pursuit of the POS's. Man that was funny, dad sure was pissed off that night, I'm glad I was on his side.

That's just amazing about the spillway, considering just how low the lake was just a short time ago.

Got the email, checked out the Google earth and replied back to you.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 21:24:18 (ZULU)

Joisey Steve:

Gee, great minds think alike {lol}

I have a copy of the orig printed 1951 resol chart that I used for photography stuff. (Got it from Edmund Scientific years ago). I'll have to give it a spin with my optics.

http://www.vinland.com/USAF-1951.html

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00346U

http://photonotes.org/cgi-bin/entry.pl?id=USAF1951

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_USAF_Resolution_Test_Chart

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 23, 2007, at 23:07:05 (ZULU)

Thanks for the responses concerning the security cameras. It is more complicated than I had hoped. I'll look into it more when I get the time.

CDC'
Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 05:03:22 (ZULU)

"Ha, story about the mail box is funny. When we get together remind me to tell you the one about the punks stealing our mail box when I was a kid. It involves a 30/06, a .357 and a Dodge Maxivan redlining around Alvin in pursuit of the POS's. Man that was funny, dad sure was pissed off that night, I'm glad I was on his side."

Tony,

Ummm...Dont mean to intrude,Any chance on sharin that with all of us???That just sounds too good.I remember how hot Dad got when some drunk wiped out ours and ripped up the lawn with his 4x4...LOL....He got even hotter when the officers werent gonna nail the drunk for property damage...The 4x4 was parked in the flower bed,squads in our drive...Told them all they had 1 minute to get off his property or he would show them a victim....There was only one other time I saw Dad that mad,That was the day I mooned the bus driver....

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 05:14:25 (ZULU)

Travis,

You are right it is quite. I would like to hear a pig hunting story but Piggie Pete is AWOL. Bolt turned farmer on us. Rick has been busy. I plan on voting for Hillary. We need a change!

JLU,

I saw a bunch of P-dogs in Wyoming last summer. I almost bought a gun just to shoot some.

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 06:22:41 (ZULU)

Pete's working his ass off trying to quit his space agency job in September, or October, I forget. He's also working like crazy in his rifle shop, getting ready for some kind of show in August I think. I've been sewing like crazy trying to get a big order finished up in time for him.

Ok, UnPat you twisted my arm:

Once upon a time, a long time ago when I was in about 9th grade, we lived out in the country. There had been instances of someone driving by and crushing, or just plain stealing mailboxes. Our mail box had been crushed a couple times when one evening we heard a noise outside. My dad ran to the door and here's this pickup truck hauling ass away, and our mailbox is gone. Now looking out our front door, these idiots were going to the left. If you go out our driveway and turn right, and haul ass, you can get to were you can cut off anything that went left. We had this big ass Dodge Maxivan, kind of a small bus, there were four of us kids and we all had a seat.

Dad grabs his Remington 30/06 and his Ruger .357 Mag. and says "get in the van" so I did, and we HAUL ASS out the driveway and to the right. We get to where there's no way out for the pick up, it has to go past us Dad stops this big van right in the middle of the road and gets out with his 06, and stands in front of it with the head lights shining on him, kind of like a Dirty Harry movie. All these roads back then were dirt roads, so there's dust blowing around too. We were'nt there but just a minute and could see headlights coming at us, and they were clipping along. They never slowed down, when they got almost to us dad shoots his 06 in the air just over the truck.

They hit the ditch and keep going. He jumps back in the van and 3 point turns that big sob around and away we go, trying to keep up with the pick up.

By some miracle we were able to trail these idiots into town and saw them turn into a house. We pulled up in front of the house, we weren't going to cross their property line. We could see the truck in the garage, and could see people peeking out of the curtains, this was before miniblinds. Well, a big heavyset guy comes out and asks what do you want. Dad says, I want to look in the back of that pickup, those boys just stole my mailbox. The fat guy says, "there's nothing in the back of the truck, and you ain't coming on my property" Dads says "well next time this happens there won't be any doubt at all about who stole my mail box, cause the sumbitches'll be dead in the middle of the road with their arms wrapped around that fucking mail box" and we left.

I didn't take long, like the next day at school, for the local hoods to start saying shit like "Tony's dad tried to kill us". They even had the nerve to accuse me of it. I told em, "if he'd been shooting AT you, you'd be a dead ass right now"

The story came out a short time later, that the 06 shot scared them so bad that one of the guys crawled out of the window doing about 80 mph and got into the bed of the truck and threw the mail box into an irrigation canal.

You know, there was never another mailbox crushed or stolen after that either.

And everyone lived happily ever after, the end.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 15:22:37 (ZULU)

If it were night time, I think seeing a blackpowder shotgun fired over their heads would be absolutely unforgettable!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 20:16:31 (ZULU)

Thank's Rod !!

Look here for some of Pete's handi work.

http://www.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/newstuff.htm

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Tuesday, July 24, 2007, at 21:22:52 (ZULU)

Steve,

I'd much rather vote for a certain Sheriff in New Mexico as president.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 03:17:24 (ZULU)

Mailbox stories-waaaaay back in the last century I started college in a rural area of Pennsylvania. Seems for a certain group the height of Saturday night testerosterone displays was to dead center mailboxes with the front bumper of your ride. I do believe that John Barleycorn or Milt Malt had some involvement in this endevor.

Anyway, a farmer out on the main highway had lost quite a few mailboxes and did quite a bit of complaining to the State Police-without serious effect. So one week he got himself a good length of what I remember to be railroad rail of the 140 lb/yard variety-mainline rail. This was planted to a substantial depth in concrete and the mailbox hung on it after the concrete cured.

Come the wee hours of the next Saturday night/Sunday morning the farmer was awakened from sound sleep by a loud noise. He dressed, and drove the halfmile or so out the driveway to the highway. There he found a pickup truck with the mailbox about in the center of the hood-in either direction. 'Twas the last mailbox he had to buy.

I dimly recall some comments about someone coulda got killed. His reply was along the lines that they shouldn't have hit the mailbox then.

Re the "sniper" video. 800 meter engagements with a 5.56 mm???????? On a AR platform????????????

WR Moore
Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 03:28:38 (ZULU)

I read in reader's digest once about a guy that had a problem in his neighborhood with mailboxes disappearing, so he planted a piece of 4" pipe 4 ft. deep or so IN concrete, filled it WITH concrete, then put wood around it, so that it looked like a wood post. He ended up having to buy a new axle for some little asshole's truck.

What a bunch of bullshit.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 04:43:22 (ZULU)

WR Moore: "Re the "sniper" video. 800 meter engagements with a 5.56 mm???????? On a AR platform????????????"

Clearly something is happening. It's hard to tell exactly what it is. A guy could make a pest of himself with a little rig like that at 800 m. He could also get in over his head.

CDC'
The family that shoots together, has interlocking fields of fire, - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 05:16:07 (ZULU)

"Clearly something is happening. It's hard to tell exactly what it is."

That's pretty much my point. Kinda wondered if it was.......ah, a recreation?

WR Moore
Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 06:06:45 (ZULU)

Sniper Video... Yeah you could not see the targets. Plus I could not hear the crack of the return fire. They mentioned it in the video but no sound came out. Of course this could be do to the low quality of the recording equipment. With a 223 you can cause real problems for untrained folks. A 6.5 Grendel would have been a hoot for them to have. But a real SWS would have been the ticket.

Travis, "I'd much rather vote for a certain Sheriff in New Mexico as president." I think you mean Pima County Az... But that would be entirely too much to ask for. I was just trying to get things fired up. I would vote for Mike Dillon too.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 07:02:22 (ZULU)

Tony B.,WR Moore,Travis....Great stories,Never did see the fascination to doin mailbox damages...Guess I missed something growin up???

Re the itchy fingered 800m 223 shooter....is it just me? or did I miss somethin in that vid?For all the shots that were fired I never heard anyone say "Ya got one" or "One bad guy down"...somethin to confirm a hit...Other than that one point where the Spotter(?) says "Your way high"... Also,What kind of velocity and energy would be in a .223 slug at 800m?

Sorry Guys,I just cant bring myself to vote for Hillary....I just cant accept that her d+ck is bigger than mine....and I didnt mean her husband either...No,I think I'll do a write in for Willie Nelson,this way it will confirm somethin we all suspected for years....The Senate,and Congress really ARE smokin dope.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 07:09:09 (ZULU)

That video has been around a while. IIRC, it was shot south of Baghdad in or near the britt zone. BTW, this was also back when the Italians were there too (heheh---that story is only funny cuz my bud lived to tell it). There was also a few other clips of the same AO, with a SAW position just above that roofline. The OHs were not originally in the tape, either. Edit? I guess that was obvious--the terrain was different in both scenes.

I kept running into guys i knew, doing that other line of work and making a shitload more money than I was at that. They usually bitched about the quality of the new guys they were getting as things expanded rapidly. A lot of really good guys went in under contract at first, and for six months or so, things generally worked tight between the uniformed and the non. But you couldn't get me to change places with them for 10x the cash. In retrospect, the "security" contracts did a helluva lot more harm than good. Not all contractors were as experienced as they claimed to be on the resume, and even a relative few of these dirtbags caused problems galore. Trigger happy? yeah, that about covers it. Morgue and i met one guy in particular---his own crew would avoid missions with him whenever they could. True psychopath. The iraqis didn't care if there was a difference between a contractor and a troop---all infidels musta looked alike. So any mistrust got painted with a broad stroke. That, and the security dudes had their objectives, and worked with the mil when it was good for their objectives. In all, it did get kinda messy. Not the way to win this sort of war. Gotta earn and keep some level of trust with the broader population...like anbar is going now. Remember when i mentioned "orient on populations" and not geography? |Hmmmm. Now we oughta formalize the "tribal militia" into national town cops. That is probably the easiest way to get ahead of the shitbags. The reason this isn't an obvious solution is it will not workie in Baghdad---where the tribe/ enclaves sorta mix together. Rival issues would make that problematic. But, just because our leaders see the baghdad problem daily---they may fail to see that this works in the other 90%. Hmmm.

I dunno about 800m 5.56mm energy---but hitting a man-sized target with a tight AR at that range is not hard. Figure a 20" barrel with 77gr BH match ammo and run a ballistic program on it.

Dude on the gun could see his own effects...scoped ARs with bipods and forend rails added on, on a "bench," don't jump much.

Travis: Mailbox baseball is a problem out here. Been thinking of getting an oversized box and casing my little box in concrete inside said big box, with the whole mess sitting on a 4" iron pipe, creted inside and in ground, with rebar joining the two. Neighbor and I have been in the design stage all week:((

Insomnia sux.

Joe M
Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 08:43:55 (ZULU)

"Insomnia sux."

Yep.

CDC'
Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 11:16:48 (ZULU)

Guys,

Have any of you wrung out a Sig 556? I got to fondle one the other day, and the trigger almost caused an ND below the beltline!Really smooth. The trigger breaks, but makes it easy to pull through the trigger.

I understand you can order one in .308, but they're not an off the shelf item. Thoughts? Opinions? Donations?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 11:31:35 (ZULU)

Travis,

Thanks for the info on the SIG 556. I've got one on order from RSR and my customer is really gettin' antsy. He'll be elated to hear about the trigger. Checked SIG's website and couldn't find anything on a .308 version. Probably a good thing because I recently came into a whole bunch of ammo! ;0)

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 13:53:29 (ZULU)

Click my name for the only political fundraiser you'll ever want to attend.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 14:35:33 (ZULU)

Guys that video has been around awhile. Its true and 800 meters is doable with 77s from 20" AR Platform. remember it was not opne round hits. He fired and adjusted as he went. That was a famous engagement.

Blackwater does some good work!

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 15:50:43 (ZULU)

JoeM,

re: mailboxes..... same as previous stories, but with a RR-tie buried 4-ft. in concrete, 3-ft. above ground. One morning we cleaned up debris from what appeared to have been a Ford truck. They must've swerved at the last moment. Never happened again.

Wasn't there a contractor, back in ~2004, that went to prison in Afghanistan for killing a civvie?

Duman
Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 16:06:43 (ZULU)

Undude/Mike,

Do you make a sling that would be suitable for an AR-15 carbine with a collapsible stock?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 16:13:45 (ZULU)

Doc, I make a bunch of different slings for ARs. I just dont catalog them yet. Give me a call in two weeks and we can talk about your needs. 510-

919-

7286

I will be out of pocket until then. My Wife goes in for major surgery tomorrow and I wont be back until she is OK

Mike/Undude

MikeMIller
Ca, - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 16:38:58 (ZULU)

Undude/Mike,

Thanks & will do. Will also keep your wife in our prayers.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 17:03:40 (ZULU)

Travis, Well how bout that the Brady Sh*& Birds say they don't even need a License or Safety Traning. Huh. I didn't see they requirement in the Bill of Rights. It musta been an oversight on thier part, or believing in personal accountability.

Mike, I shall say A pray for a positive outcome..... Also regaurding good folks being hard to find. You got that right. Finding godd folks for that type of work is tough. Too many nut bars out there wanna go do crap just to fulfill thier ego. If I did something like that it would be for the money and to help our Country. Good new Police recruits are really tough to come by these days.

DirtySteve....

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 17:44:45 (ZULU)

Steve,

Good, old fashioned, no bullshit, common sense cops are hard to find, too. I think all of them got disgusted and quit! It seems like around here, you have to have an ego the sized of a Hyundai to get a badge. Occassionally, you can still find some guys that just want to help, but it's rare. Kansas Highway patrolmen are some of the most professional and polite officers I've ever met. (and that's coming from someone they've never let off with a warning!)

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 18:07:42 (ZULU)

For those interested in such things.

The Sig 556 in operation.

http://www.downrange.tv/player.htm?bcpid=452320104&bclid=824098518&bctid=459256140

Regards,

Joisey Steve

P.S.

Alas,Such weapons are illegal in the Peoples Republic of New Joisey!

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey Peoples Republic Of, US of A - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 18:36:09 (ZULU)

Mike,

I'll say a prayer for your wife. Hope all goes well. Keep us posted.

HDR
OK, - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 18:47:33 (ZULU)

Mike,

Hope all goes well tomorrow. Surgery is no fun, but it's good to have someone on the recovery end, waiting for you.

Duman
Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 20:39:00 (ZULU)

Mike,Mrs. Mike

Our thoughts and prayers for you and the family...If ya need anythin just ask.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2007, at 21:27:37 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

How about a 4-man, roadside ambush with pepperspray paintballs? I bet those little bastards will get the message. That, or throw a lit road flare in their car.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 01:31:57 (ZULU)

I got a flyer shortly after I moved to the sticks about the "Ultimate Mailbox, you'll never buy another". It was made from 1/4 inch diamond plate steel-might have been stainless, don't recall. I figured a PO box 2 miles away was cheaper than $375 up front.

JoeM- good to see you posting again. I've seen something similar to what you're talking about, but done with heavy plate. I'd think 1/8 plate should take care of most of the bats.

BTW, the energy level at 800 M was my concern. Never tried a box stock AR at that kinda distance so don't know the mechanical limits. Wind drift would be a bitch.

Best wishes for Mrs Undude, went through that 5 years ago.

WR Moore
Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 02:12:03 (ZULU)

Travis,

A friend of mine got a Sig 556 in a couple of weeks ago. I had to spread the cost over three credit cards but I got one. What a sweet piece of equipment. I put an Eotech on top of it and zeroed it for CQB type engagements. I shot it in an IDPA type carbine match and it was real easy to handle, no failures (if I could shoot better, I would have scored better).

It takes some getting used to because of the minor differences in ergonomics between it and an AR. Like no charging handle to rub your nose against. It has a 1 in 7 twist which should shoot the heavier bullets just fine. Zeroed at 25 yrds, it will shoot a one hole group with the Eotech.

The trigger is adjustable and had a long travel on it until I adjusted it but "smooth" is hardly the right word for it. I paid 14 and a half for it including a hard case and a really nice soft case with "SIGTACH" embroidered on it. I think it's called a "discrete case". Only one mag and no sights though. I would recommend it to the "serious" shooters in the crowd.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Vardaman, Mississippi, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 03:20:13 (ZULU)

Just read my latest copy of Shooting Times. They had an article on the T/C Icon. They mentioned George's (GAPrecision) involvment... Nothing but good things to say about the rifle.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 03:28:26 (ZULU)

NativeAmericanVocalist,

So, what did you think of the trigger, overall? If I didn't already have half the guns in town on layaway, the 556 would be next.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 04:35:23 (ZULU)

UnDude: Let me clarify: There were some great guys out in Iraq on contract. There was some damned fine ops conducted by them and other like them. Most contractors worked with the larger army better than the air farce ever will. I mentioned the opposite side only because a few contractor orgs and a minority of contracted asshats had a disproportionate effect overall on the unity of effort---and the iraqi people's level of trust.

There was an outfit in Iraq---two westpointers founded it on their "ranger" background (school only IIRC)---they were under indictment last I followed the story. This involved some hired help at the airport in Baghdad early on. And yeah, the freelancer in A-stan, who invited himself to the party in the first place also got in a world of shiite. That is not all uncommon either. I have legit bud who travels in and out looking for work first hand. But this guy mentioned made his own work! Got caught too--the local authority was rather pissed.

Bravo: This guy in A-stan may have proved your point about trusting company men!

SIG? I need to see what this weapon is all about.

TC Icon: The corporate legal team must be having nightmares about that trigger design. Ha. I like it. Easy bugger to adjust! Good thing the bolt handle is easily interchangeable too--the stock one sucks ass. Overall, I would look at this T/C for a hunting rig instead of just buying another Sako. I'm a snob about hunting rifles. 1MOA (or worse) is NOT acceptable accuracy out of the box! Of course, it is hard to justify this snobbery to she who has checkbook.

RR rail may be easy to get...heheh. I wonder what it would do to a snowplow? My winter problem involves the county--though they are pretty good about fixing their mistakes!

Joe M
Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 05:26:41 (ZULU)

Is that TC Icon a fat bolt design.? I have not seen much about it yet.

Got to go order Cigars now. I'm down to 5 left.

DirtySteve....

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 06:10:29 (ZULU)

I played with a TC Icon at the GAP booth at SHOT last year. Nice looking rifle, smooth action and all that.

The thing that struck me right off the bat with the first lift of the bolt though, was how strange the short bolt throw felt. All I've ever used has been a Remington 700, and the Icon felt really weird. When I run the bolt I kind of extend my fingers straight and flip up the handle. With the short throw, it felt totally uncomfortable. It was almost like my wrist was in a bind half way up, and it was kind of hard to then grab the bolt handle to run it back.

I ran the bolt several times and I did finally start to get the feel for it.

It got me thinking though. If I got an Icon, is sure would take a lot of dry firing to get the feel of a Remington out of my system, like years. Also, in my opinion, I think I'd have a hard time switching back and forth from one kind of bolt throw to another. I have a hard enough time trying to drive one type of rifle correctly without introducing something that different into the equation.

As with everything that comes out of the GAP shop, it was a nice looking rifle though.

At the moment, I'm starting to get excited about an M14 that George should have finished pretty quickly.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 13:23:23 (ZULU)

Got to work the last few days as a gopher down at the place in Pearsall with Jim Reifinger. What a place! I've learned as much, if not more, in the last week, as the SAPD Academy has allegedly taught me in the last 20 about gunfighting. Not "qualification", or "marksmanship"(which they don't teach anyway)but GUNFIGHTING. The students were an outstanding mix of people, men and women. I won't say who they were with, but I never had as good a time when I was in that organization. It was definitely wet. Jetfins would have been as effective as the boots, but it was some real-world training for wet, sloppy, bloody and oily environments. Now, if I can just find some training in a five-star restaurant with Swedish masseusses and GlenFiddich dispensers.....rollover prone could take on a whole new meaning!

Anyway, had a great time, I actually told Jim that I was "all shot out" for the time being. Never thought I'd hear myself say that.

Bobby, youse guys been getting flooded? My (or rather, June's) cats are starting to morph into otters, we've been getting so much rain. I saw an armadillo yesterday that had floaties on. Reason I ask is that I'm still trying to get Dirty Steve to come back to shooting some real firearms. We'll see.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 15:10:41 (ZULU)

Travis,

The trigger on the 556 takes some getting used to but only in the travel, not the brake. The brake is almost scary it's so smooth. I figured out that it's best when you learn to feel the reset and start there instead of a full let out. Kinda like shooting a Glock. Very fast and effective once you master the reset point.

It's my understanding that it takes a dealer six months at present to get the Sig 556 and they have to buy 6 handguns to go with it. There's a lot of chatter here in the cotton patch about the rifle but mostly amoungst the serious shooters. Too pricey for the average folks but money well spent. It looks complicated from a field strip/cleaning standpoint but in reality, it's no more complicated than the AR's. The only difference is the gas piston system and that's simple once you've done it the first time. There isn't even a buffer spring noise in the stock to deal with.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 15:47:37 (ZULU)

Chuck,

It was great having you on the team this week. Your input was on time and appriciated. I am enjoying my day off today. I am also a bit wore out after a great class. I go back and hit it again with the other group tomorrow and finish them Sunday.

If it stays a bit dry today for a bit, I think I will go out back and shoot that new PSE bow I just bought. October ain't that far off.

Maybe I should start building an arc :)

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 16:44:17 (ZULU)

Chuck, 1911's are real guns as well as that Savage 223. I do need to shoot my GA 308 and see if the Stealth is still in the safe and sighted in. I can not get a way untill I finnish the fence on the other pasture. I can not finish it till the rain stops on a weekend so I can rent some tools to make the job easier. Putting holes in rock aint easy. So as it stands God don't want me to go.

DirtySteve.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 17:50:42 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: The bolt handle in the promotional pics is a flat, spoon-like, beavertailish weird thing. I hated it on sight. On the other hand, they made it removeable...

On politics: Incredulous best describes my take on the current direction. From the second ammendment, Iran, trade, free markets, to the war in Iraq: There's a group of clowns who are trying very hard to drive the US into the dirt. My only question is which enemy has bought these wads off???

On leadership: If I hear the phrase "the will of the american people" one more time, I'll twist a gut. The people once thought our current prez was worthy of the historic highest-ever approval rating, only to then give him the second lowest rating afew years later. Fickle emotions is no way to run a country, and yet the polls seem to be the moral compass of many elected "so-called leaders." That is pure crap. A leader "sells" the difficult choice in the interests of the long term. History will judge...not opinion polls. WTF??? Logically, either we have placed complete dumbasses in positions of power, or these same dumbasses have an agenda to destroy the founder's vision. I do not think these pols are all that dumb, so...

History. I've read many essays on how Bush will be viewed down the road. Ok, "history" is established thru events that follow---events we cannot fathom yet. Take Truman: He was reviled for his handling of Korea, MacArthur, stubborness, etc. But, once Reagan took Truman's path to conclusion, "history" on Truman's true place could be analyzed. |That was 40 years after the fact, eh? Imagine this: Clintoonette gets elected and unilaterally withdraws from Iraq. Iran seizes the southern oilfields and puts Kuwait and saudi under a mighty big gun. Hugo is already in their pocket. Musharef is left on his own, and the emboldened jihadists set their sights. AlQ leads the topple (remember, it is the motivated 10% that always charts the course of history---90% are merely along for the ride)--and presto, nukes on hand. Pick a US city, and vaporize most of it. Thru that lens, Bush will look awfully smart, eh?

Economy under the dem's leadership: Iran declares an embargo and OPEC falls in line out of fear. We proved Bin laden's 94 declaration of "glass-jawed and morally bankrupt" true, and Iran emerges with a fantastic strategic position in the middle east. We will have pulled out, and the will to reinforce Kuwait is nonexistant, at least until it is too frikken late. No oil imports, and the US house of cards economy crashes, bringing the western world down with it. China will feel this pinch first, which is the only good news I see from our current headlong rush to oblivion. To make all this worse, nationalized health care has a real chance to pour gas on the fire into the above scenario---let alone the social implications of losing personal freedoms wholesale. Some people honestly think that greed motivates OPEC? Put an ideology like Iran firmly in charge, and watch the fun!

In a way, i hope we go the predicted direction: elect Dems across the board, and run away fast from the GWOT. I won't miss any of the likely targets, I won't mourn those who bring shit upon themselves, and thru chaos comes the fixes we so desparately need. The US will survive...in the long run. It's that 10% thing again...

Hell, it is a dark scenario...almost to the point of paranoia...but watching it unfold from both sides of the ocean, it looks plausible as hell to me.

OK, that's out of my system...

What is the best personal defense bullet above 200grs for 4" 1911s?

(Oooops, I asked for an absolute---here comes a pie fight)

Joe M
Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 20:47:24 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

Guess I may as well jump in and display my ignorance. IMHO as long as it feeds, is accurate, and doesn't overpenetrate, it's great. It took my new Kimber three trips back to the factory before it would feed even hardball! It now feeds anything I give it. It currently is full of Winchester SXT. I have an old Colt Commander that only works with hardball so I keep a round of Winnie SXT in the chamber and eight rounds of FMJ in the magazine. I only carry it here on the farm so overpenetration isn't a concern. If I remember correctly the FBI used to have Federal Hydra-Shok in their .40's. Any Federal ammo I have ever used worked just fine. YMMV. Don't know how well hollow points perform against the heavy winter clothing up in your AO.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 21:46:15 (ZULU)

Well Joe, the absolute best one is the one that's in the gun when the fight starts, mine has 230 Hydroshocks. So that has to be the best one, absolutely. Dontcha just love a smartass?

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 21:50:16 (ZULU)

JoeM,

The retired FBI guy in town, who teaches CCW, carries Hydra-Shock, 230-gr..

Duman
Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 22:02:25 (ZULU)

Joe:

You asked:

What is the best personal defense bullet above 200grs for 4" 1911s?

(1) You didn't specify, but we'll make the assumption that you are asking about 1911 chambered in .45 ACP since you are asking about "heavy" projectiles.

(2) Common barrel lengths for 1911's chambered in .45 ACP are 5", 4.285 and 3.5 inch. We'll also assume you actually are asking about the 4.285" barrel variant. (Unless you has something like the Kimber Compact w/4.0" brl in mind).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 22:05:25 (ZULU)

Rod: Only "gamers" buy 1911s in any other flavor than 45 ACP;))

I've always bought the hydroshoks too. For years and years. I was just making sure nothing new snuck in that is thought "betterer."

Tony: Ha! That's a fact! There's always a second to assess effects on the mag-change, eh? 8-13 rounds of ball seems like would meet a minimum standard;))

Doc: Winter clothing or not, it is still a .45 caliber slug!!! Won't shrink any...

Joe M
Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 22:24:10 (ZULU)

Joe M.,

A .45 hole beats a 9mm any day. I was just wondering about the fact that some hollow points fail to expand when they are plugged with heavy coat material.

Hawgs,

A buddy of mine in SW Missouri has recently moved to a nice sub-division where guns are verboten. The armadillos are driving him crazy because they keep rooting up his landscaping. Since silencers/suppressors are no-no's here he asked me about air rifles. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I still haven't ruled out .22 CB caps!

Thanks & Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2007, at 23:45:47 (ZULU)

Joe:

I kind of suspected where you were coming from, just wanted to be precise. Most of my range time (I'm in Canada, eh!) is spent around gamers (IPSC). Lots of 1911's, very few in .45 ACP.

.38 Super is the game cartridge for the Open division (compensated pistols), .40 S&W or 9mmx19 is the cartridge for Standard or Production. Seldom see .45 ACP around here. But of course you knew most of that already :-)

John Farnam is using and recommending the Cor-Bon DPX line, one of the more recent innovations in handgun projectiles. Pricy as heck, although not to the point of stuff like Glasers or Magsafe.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=203800

"The one round that expanded consistently and completely, despite the leather and denim barrier, in all calibers, was Cor-Bon's DPX! DPX, in 40S &W, 45ACP, 357SIG, 38Super, and 45AutoRim, were all unimpressed by the leather and denim. Even 380Auto DPX, out of my little Kel-Tec, was immune. It expanded symmetrically and completely, penetrating nine inches of gelatin, after penetrating the clothing."

Google " DPX Farnam" for more details

Strictly speaking it is not a heavy projectile, but since it is made of tougher but lower-density material than lead and guilding metal, a slightly lighter weight is "just right". (160gr).

Mfgr # DPX45160/20 - $30/bx of 20 is fairly typical pricing.

Midway and DakotaAmmo carry it, among others.

Would be my choice if I could acquire and afford it.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 00:53:45 (ZULU)

45ACP Ammo...

Back when I bought my 1911...3yrs ago tops...The guy at the counter of the pistol range is a retired LEO...I asked him about a good personal defense round...He turned me onto Win Supreme T series 230gr...He claims it is the same bullet as "Black Talons" only minus the black coating...I tried to research the Black Talon and from the pics I found the Win T does appear very similar to the BT. I ran a couple boxes of Win T's thru mine and found the grouping to open up a little more then 230gr ball ammo....

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 01:56:22 (ZULU)

Rod: Is the "DPX" the truncated-shaped thing with the rubber bumper under the jascket at the nose? I considered those (as described) for carry on my last (last) tour overseas...kinda stealth JHP for outward appearances. I built a M4 instead. But it would be worthy of a bit o' testing.

I remember the winny talon "scandal." The antis were feeling their oats with the clintonistas in charge, and the press whipped up a scare campaign...I mean, shit: I'd rather be shot with one talon at room distance than a 12ga 4 shot...but that design died due to the ad campaign, the color of the projectile, and the feeding frenzy of folks who wouldn't know a talon from a fuzed arty round. Oh, guess what: Those illogical days of anti-gun propaganda and scare tactics are right around the corner. They forgot the Newt revolution wasn't about gays in the military---it was about a liberal agenda that looked good on paper but tasted like shit when shoved down your throat. The gun ban mobilized the "leave me alone" crowd into action.

Thought for the day:

On society and the individual, the worth of any one person can be assessed by need: If society needs you more than you need society, congratulations--your kind built this nation and carried mankind forward on your backs. If you need society more than it needs you, well, welcome to the majority.

Farnam has come up in conversation more than few times lately. I was wondering if he is the same JF I knew years ago (army), and met again in 03-04 when he was with Titan Group in Iraq...

When I googled him ealier this week---I got some sexually ambiguous britt folk singer with a zillion fan pages. I got sick of trying to eliminate search words---lyrics, songs, CDs, stage, ballad, music, singer...I finally said the hell with it.

I had Bravo email me the link! Good reading, BTW.

Joe M
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 05:15:28 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

"Got to go order Cigars now. I'm down to 5 left."

Good man. Glad there's at least one other cigar smoker around here besides me.

Good cigar you should try is the Monte Cristo Afrique line. I think it's proprietary to JR Cigars. Reasonably priced and a damn fine smoke. I think they only sell 'em by the box so if you wanna try a couple email me a snail mail address and I'll send you a few to try.

Take care,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 05:49:06 (ZULU)

Seegars: Flor de Oliva . Real good and cheap-cheap.

Joe M: Good pol/mil analysis.

CDC'
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 06:16:03 (ZULU)

Cigar Country..

I smoke the following on a regular basis:

Juan Lopez Epicure #1 $68.00 per box Rated a 91 from Cigar Aficionado. I really like these, they are a great buy.

Partagas Black Label, Partagas Spanish Rosado and Romeo Y Julieta Reserve (Real Nice smoke. These are what I carry most or the Juan Lopez cigars.) I like full bodied smokes. Gispert Maduros are supposed to be a good smoke too. Cigar Insider ratings as high as 90. They are under $50 a box. I have only smoked one and it was decent. I don't recommend anything I have not smoked several of out of diffrent boxes.

I order from Famous Smoke Shop. Great prices on most cigars. Free shipping over $99 bucks.

I will give others mentioned a try. I need to hit the local shop any way for a few to tide me over.

Oh JC, I don't smoke on a regular basis. Just while working or when relaxing on my day off, or mowing on the tractor.

JoeM, "Only "gamers" buy 1911s in any other flavor than 45 ACP;))" Not true. You only need a couple 45's. Then You need a couple 38 Stupis, a 40 and a 9mm. Hum seem to be what I have laying around in the safe. The 9mm's are real sweet.

Try Zaba search, for finding folks.

45 Self Defense ammo. Speer Gold Dots and Wichester Supreme ammo. Good stuff.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
Texas, USA - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 07:11:22 (ZULU)

DPX- Dunno what the letters stand for, but Cor-Bon is loading the Barnes XPB all copper bullet in the round. I called Barnes and their suggested load data for the 115 gr is 4.7-5.2 gr of Longshot. The LOAL is at home. IIRC, the max loading is pretty much same/same as the velocity quoted by Cor-Bon.

The Federal rubber rounds sound interesting if you live in NJ, Germany or somewhere else where hollowpoints are verboten. Methinks they violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the Hague Accords.

WR Moore
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 08:28:14 (ZULU)

Joe:

WR Moore's description of the DPX is fine.

You're thinking of the PowerBall, which looks like a FMJ but will deform. John Farnam says that the DPX is much betterer :-)

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 10:49:11 (ZULU)

re: John Farnam

http://www.defense-training.com/

John's resume:

http://www.defense-training.com/johnres.html

"After graduating from Cornell College with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader. For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts. I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines. I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987. My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major."

There's more.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 10:54:11 (ZULU)

I've been searching a bunch of other shooting websites this past week, looking for some stuff...

... I can't tell you what a breath of fresh air this moldy ol' bar is.

Off to shoot today.

Then back to "you know what"!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 11:34:11 (ZULU)

americansnipers.org

Hey guys-- just popping in for a reminder and update on the raffle for americansnipers.org. The "package" is still growing...... have added ammo from CorBon, and a light rail / X200 adapter from Dawson Precision. Tickets at http://www.pistolraffle.com, a discussion of the project is at http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4681

Ned Christiansen
3R, MI, USA - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 14:02:47 (ZULU)

Morning guys, have a question to folks who live in my neck of the woods. I need to bead blast my mil spec 1911 frame and I am looking to see if anyone knows of a place.

Darren

Darren
East Bay, San Francisco, CA - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 16:06:04 (ZULU)

Hi Doc,

Airgun country: Have your buddy look into one of the 1,000 fps air rifles by Beeman, RWS, or Gamo. I have personal experience with the first two and they should take care of the problem with no trouble. I still have an 850 fps Beeman in .177 cal and it has taken out many rats and soft-skinned type pests. Never tried an armadillo, though, but the pointed pellets should penetrate the skull OK. I don't know how they will do on the body with it's built-in armour. He may want to investigate going to the .22 cal for a bit more delivered energy, more uncomon pellet supply though. Of course, he could just buy 10,000 or so, (after testing to see what he and the rifle like) as the shelf life of a pellet approaches infinity. If he goes with the airgun, please keep us up on the effects on the 'dillos. Inquiring minds want to know!

Good hunting,

Erik

Erik in Kodiak
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 18:18:52 (ZULU)

Well one of our guys was shot last night. Surprisingly he was a former firearms instructor for us. To bad he wasn't a little more "tactically aware" during the situation.

Air Guns-RWS.............

DirtySteve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 18:42:43 (ZULU)

Doc,

I've found my RWS 34 (1000 fps .177 cal. pellet gun) to be rather loud. I've taken to using either a short barreled .22 rifle with 'super calibri' rounds (click my name for link) or my Benjamin .177 pump airgun (somewhat quiet) for the local tree rat population.

The other thing is those damn 'springer' 1000 fps airguns require very, very, very good form (NPA) and perfect follow through to group at over 50 yards. They make any other rifle seem like child's play... talk about unforgiving.

medicjim
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 19:25:32 (ZULU)

Oh, Our guy was hit in the chest and leg. He will be ok......

DirtySteve.........

DirtySteve
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 19:48:04 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

Glad to hear he will pull through.

medicjim
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 19:53:21 (ZULU)

I just read a bit o' Kos (daily). i got a kick out of the bit on how "neocons disrespect the troops" more than the (moonbats at DK)." Oh gawd, the shit they believe about our soldiers! Hilarious. I wanted to mention that their statements seem to contradict the point they were trying to make, but didn't want to blow my cover just yet:))

Which leads to the thought of the day:

"You are never as smart as you think you are."

Logically, if you are truly intelligent, you understand the limitations of your knowledge and strive to "learn." Conversely, if you feel you are smart, you are ignorant to those limitations---and stuck with them.

Para P13 works best with a 20 pound spring. The early malfs disappeared, and the thing "feels" great. Unsupported groups tightened up...but the variables involved preclude praising the spring rate change: I have "better glasses", I reduced my snuff usage by 75% enroute to walking away from it, and I am doing a bit more PT...any of which could cause me to shoot better.

Joe M
Friday, July 27, 2007, at 20:27:50 (ZULU)

Joe:

You mean like Dirty Harry's line:

"Man's got to know his limitations"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Force

co-written by John Milius!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0587518/

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 22:54:15 (ZULU)

DirtySteve:

Any new or bearing repetition "lessons learned"?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 27, 2007, at 22:55:46 (ZULU)

Glad to see all is pretty much the same here.

Back from Montana. The varmint shooting was great, as usual. Six weeks was not enough though. Added to the normal compliment of varmint calibers the past few summers, the Hornady 17Mach2 is a real winner for ground squirrels and dogs out to about 100yds. Have a few rifles for it and a 1911 Kimber pistol that is just too much fun!!!!!

REMINGTON ACTIONS are not available And I was told by a guy at Remington today they would not be shipping any until they were caught up on their rifle orders; maybe a year.... Tried to get one from Midway today and was told they were "discontinued" and they referred me to Remington....

1911 coutry....Hydrashocks run in all my guns, even the Commanders....

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 01:31:15 (ZULU)

Markwell,

There's one for sale at the Bullet Stop here in Wichita. (316)945-3331.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 04:15:48 (ZULU)

Rod, Lessons learned. Don't cancel cover on a "Man with a Gun call". That being said I am ussually expecting a weapon when it is not mentioned. Reason? Because folks think we will get there faster if they say he has a gun. Leason 2) 44 mags hurt. I didn't learn this but Rick sure did. He got one in the vest, one between the side pannels of his vest(into the chest cavity) and one in the leg. OOOOUUUch!

Me I make sure everyone I contact knows I am in charge and will be more than happy to punch there ticket. Twice this year that alone has helped me. Once a guy was wanting to stab me butI wouild not let him grab the knife. Every time his hand dropped to the floor of his car my gun exited it's resting place. Then when he dropped his hand again and noticed my gun pointing at him again the hand came up gun back in the holster. I said I don't know whats down there but it aint gunna do you any damn good. He just smiled. Ha. The other time was two days ago. A guy with 4 oz of coke really didn't want to go to the can. Put his hand near his gun, he noticed mine was watching him. Hand came away. I holstered and asked him to kindly get out. He then steps out and put his hand in his back pocket. I didn't ask fer anything so I i grabbed a couple fingers and advised him fingers get broke by touching things when not told to do so. He had a large folding knife in the pocket beside his wallet. No one is my friend out there! Everyone wants to hurt me!

Markwell, just get a Surgeon action or that GA7000 action. They are more betterer. Or try Brownells........

DirtySteve......

dirtysteve
Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 04:43:24 (ZULU)

Oh, later I will tell you of the traffic stop I made eariler this month on two Armed Robbery suspects. I crack myself up some times when I work. I will post it tomrrow when I have some time.

DirtySteve.....

DirtySteve
Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 04:47:04 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve, Charles S Hunt: Do you gentlemen ever do any feral pig hunting? I was thinking of going to the hill country and giving it a try.

.45 ACP ammo: There have been a bunch of amatuer(ish) studies of handgun stopping power but none I know of that were done by anyone who understood how to do observational research. Given that, at one point center mass 230 Gr Hydroshock wounds were supposed to have incapacitated the subject 22 times in 22 attempts. I seem to remember having reason to accept that number, but don't remember why.

I switched to Hydroshocks.

That was a while back so data since gathered may invalidate my conclusion.

TIFWIW.

CDC'
Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 13:11:50 (ZULU)

CDC Sir,

You may want to take a look at this sight for some ammo studies/info.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Stay safe

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 15:21:39 (ZULU)

CDC: I haven't done ANY hunting in a long, long time. Before I moved to Tejas, I did. But, here, if you can find a place to hunt, the landowner wants a quart of blood, your firstborn child, and money by the bucket to allow you to kill an animal that doesn't belong to them in the first place. There are a few public lands to hunt, but it's like hunting in your closet it's so crowded. I had one friend who lived over by Hondo that let me hunt his property, but he got divorced and lost the property. Rather than pay several thousand dollars for the opportunity to MAYBE get a deer or pig, I will spend that at the local grocery store and have a one hundred percent chance of getting some meat. All that being said, if you can find a place, well LMK. If you want to go hunt it, then come over to Casa Carlos and round out the day by charring said pig and chasing it with a touch of the Balvenie, I'm yer huckleberry.

Speaking of whiskey, that reminded me of cigars, which reminded me of Finger. He told me a story about "smoking a Cuban" that was a howler. You ever see him, make him tell you. I wouldn't do it justice, and it ain't my place to tell it. Funny stuff.

Folks that way been getting Serpa holsters. After working with them for a week, I was so impressed I went out and got one for my own self for the Glock. That thing is slicker'n hammered owl snot. I'm not normally one for "security holsters", as most of them aren't, and I've watched too many people get tied up in a hairball trying to get their gun out under stress, but this thing is cool. Puts yer trigger finger right where it should be for the draw, and the G-lock comes out slicker'n a squid turd.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 15:22:54 (ZULU)

Wife is in hospital a few more days but doing great. She was full of non cancer tumors (ten total) in female regions.

On pistol ammo, saw one fo the factory test about fifteen years ago where they where supposed to show how mucn better the "Gold Dots" where to everything else.

From my perspective best was Winchester Black Talon and second was close by Hydra Shok. Been carrying Hydro Shock for several decades. Not likely to switch soon.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 16:32:30 (ZULU)

Great news about your wife Mike, get out soon.

Got the package in the mail too. I'll have my machinest guy check out those bullets and see what we can do. The project we're working on is made out of Naval Bronze. The bullets you sent don't look like that. Would you be able to talk to whomever it was that gave them to you to find out what it is they're made out of?

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 18:07:14 (ZULU)

Charles: If you ever find yourself near Chicago or Minnie/ St Paul, you will have a "place" to hunt for a mere quart of beer...just drop me a line.

Serpa holster: These really got popular in the spring of 2006 with the well-funded crowd. In other words--with guys who actually "need" a good holster for daily work:))

What I liked about them was the total modularity--it could go from the belt, to drop leg, to a chest mount on the molle vest, all the while giving the same security and rapid draw. The 6004 WAS the slickest, but that little stirrup on spring locks would clog with sand in short order. And, the 6004 wasn't modular...

Dirt Steve: Well? What happened on the traffic stop?

Joe M
Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 18:28:35 (ZULU)

Gentelmen;

.45 Ammo country: 230 grain Remington Gold sabers ride in my 1911 and have for years. I carried Hydrashocks for years in my Glock .40, but issue is now Speer Gold Dot. I had no compliants from either. I don't know a thing about the DPX brand, but heavy winter clothing is always a concern for expansion for hollow point pistol cartridges.

Cigars: Rancho Dominicanos from Thompson & Co. Good smoke for the price.

Pat II
Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 20:56:38 (ZULU)

Remington action was not for me but for Fall ASC prize rifle that Jared Joplin is going to build... My next rifle will be on a Surgeon action when I manage to save the $sssssss...Gotta quit buying/building varmint guns(and travelling West to shoot them), N frame Smiths, and Kit Guns!!!! They're all weaknesses. Thank goodness I've got enough 1911s or I'd really be broke. Am sitting on one 223 boltface face action. No immediate project in mind but something will come up I'm sure..

CDC....I think the Hydrashock deal(22 for 22) was a local LE stat.. Maybe L.A. or some other big metro area as I seem to recall the same info but not the specific numbers...I came into a large bunch of Hydrashocks(cases) at the right price during a training gig quite a while back and see no reason to switch to some other ammo. All my guns run with the Federal and I figure if you hit 'em in the center it shouldn't matter a whole lot what it's with.

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Saturday, July 28, 2007, at 22:39:33 (ZULU)

CDC, I don't hunt any more. I will occasionally shoot a deer (Ok I shot two in 13yrs here) but it aint hunting. Here it is done over a feeder or near one. For pigs that's ok but it aint hunting. You need a large place to hunt pigs around here they don't hang in one place for a long time. They come through my place every couple weeks. But if it doesn't rain for a while and the water dries up then they may not come around till winter or till it has a good rain. The big game ranches fence thier land to keep them in and make sure they have water all year around and plant feed plots and such.

Mike, Great news.........

JoeM, Ok here goes. Two turds are out on a crime spree and rob some lady. We do the normal cop stuff and set up a quadrant looking for the guys. I am a good ways off so I just do my own thing. After about 20 mins the Officer handling the call puts out the description one more time but adds a few details about the Suspect vehicle. No sooner does he say It a gold POS with one black rim and the others are chrome. I am sitting at a light thinking huh the vehicle over yonder with the expired registration has one black rim and two turds in it. It goes past and I see the front LP and the back are not the same. Luckily the back one does match what the other officer put out. Well not really luckily I knew it was them, cause they would not even glance at me. I conduct a normal everyday traffic stop. I approach the vheicle with my gun in hand and walk up to the driver's side stopping just be hind the door frame and say, (Gun pointing at said turds head) "Hello I'm officer Dickerson SanAntonio Police I need to see your Drivers license and Insurance Please." Turd don't even glance at me just leans forward and pulls out his wallet. Gets his DL then looks my way as he is attempting to hand it to me. Turd see's the gun for the first time and his eyes get big as a dinner plate. I say, "You know let's just skip this part and get to me arresting you" I opened the door and yank turd out telling the other guy I wouldn't even sneeze right now. Your next. Another office showed up cuffed the other turd. Gun was on the floor bad guy goes to jail. He was Identified by the witnesses.

I just thought the whole thing was funny. Me acting like I was gunna write him a ticket and him not noticing the gun at his head. Even though just minutes before he was pointing a gun at someone. He lacked situational awareness. I did the same thing to a guy in a stolen car but he noticed the gun. Not sure if this was a "you had to be there story" or not. I just like having fun when I work.

Ammo.... FBI, FWTW, did some testing about 10 yrs ago on all lines of Priemuim ammo all did well. Speer Gold dots did about the same as Hydroshocks. There was not much difference between the best and the worst. One thing that did stand out was when going thrugh heavy clothing the matierial cut by the bullet filled in the hollow points and most acted like ball ammo. 45 ball beats 9mm ball, but I belive two 9mm's equal one 45 ball. So I will just shoot more times.

I am supposed to carry a 40 Glock off duty (Department Policy) but I carry whatever happens to be laying around at the time. Sometimes a Single Action 45.

Dirty Steve....

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 01:56:19 (ZULU)

Joe M......I don't have to hunt for a quart of beer, got two in the 'fridge right now. But, given the chance, I'll come up anyway. The way things have been going, it might be a while.

I hate post hole diggers. If I have a choice of going to Hell, or digging fence post holes in Heaven, it's gonna be a squeaker. But, the damned fence is finally in. Nothing like digging fence post holes in 90-degree weather with 90% humidity. Neighbor comes over and is having a friendly conversation with me while I dig. After about six hole go in (rocky soil is a complete understatement) he offers up the little tidbit that he has an auger. Grrrrr.....it's probably gonna keep the deer from feeding through like they've been doing, but I can still hit them in the neighbor's yard from here. It'd serve him right for watching me dig post holes for an hour.

Boudica just called, said we "need to talk". I think I feel the wind of the other shoe heading for the floor. But, I've kinda gotten to like not having to ask anyone if it's a good time to go to Badlands, or if I can work a week away from home. And the 30MM ammo cans make good furniture.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 02:15:16 (ZULU)

Pig hunts, reasonably priced: www.solanaranch.com Feel free to donate to my hunt fund!

Chuck,

Ever notice how "We need to talk" can sound an awful lot like "you need to listen"?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 02:30:06 (ZULU)

Mike,

Good to hear about your wife. I can only imagine what kind of stress the two of you must have been going through before you knew that it was not cancer.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 04:09:58 (ZULU)

The wife picked up a video for me last night. "Combat Diary, The Marines of Lima Company" about their tour in Iraq in 2005. LOTS of video they took themselves. I thought it was very good. You'll laugh, but have your crying rag handy too. Two thumbs up!

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, United States of America - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 14:51:35 (ZULU)

Ref: Oshkosh

I just got back last night.

It's a huge event, too big to describe.

All went well until Friday(Lost a good man and two P-51 Mustangs).

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 15:04:31 (ZULU)

Kevin: You sorta failed to mention that you'd be in my neighborhood!

Joe M
Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 17:26:51 (ZULU)

Joe,

My bad.....

Next time.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Sprnigs, New York, US of A - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 19:28:46 (ZULU)

Testing...

Marius
Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 22:20:01 (ZULU)

Mike,

Great news!

Erik, medicjim, and Dirty Steve,

Thanks for the airgun info. Think I'll go with RWS as all of you mentioned it.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 23:27:38 (ZULU)

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q3/070723a_nr.html

ST. LOUIS, July 23, 2007 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] has been awarded a U.S. Army contract valued at approximately $7 million to begin developing the initial phase for a truck-mounted laser weapon system that destroys rockets, artillery shells and mortar rounds.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 23:37:12 (ZULU)

Doc, A good RWS wil put a hole in a car tire if its on the rim. My brother had an inconsiderate neighbor once. The guys manners about reving up his hot rod at 0600 every morning changed. He began idling down the srteet.

Kevin, Sorry to hear about the plane crash. Atleast one was able to walk a way.

Chuck, "I hate post hole diggers." You need to hire the post hole digger that lives on the ranch near here. $35 BUCKS A DAY...

I read about the Icon. It is a fat bolt design. This makes for easier manufacturing. All in all the gun looks like an up dated Voere Titan. Or as they brought into this country, a Kliengunther K-15 or later the Mauser Model 99. My Voere shoots like a house of fire. Well I last shot it about 4 years ago to shoot a deer on my place. It shot great then. The main difrence is the flat bottom reciever and the R5 barrel. It also has the angled left side. But looks like the same basic action.Three lugs and same ejector/extractor set up.

DirtySteve.......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, July 30, 2007, at 03:27:02 (ZULU)

Hello everyone!

Long time since I've posted. Same shady charachtars on the board though!

Good to see you all and will be in touch again shortly.

Jefe
Monday, July 30, 2007, at 05:17:22 (ZULU)

Jefe, Andy's Dad: Good to see you back.

CDC'
Monday, July 30, 2007, at 06:22:35 (ZULU)

I was in the local gunshop today and happened to notice a Tikka Stainless Varmint rifle in .223 on the shelf. Wow does that thing have a slick action. I noticed right off that it has some features over a stock rem 700... for example, a sturdy connection between bolt handle and bolt, not silver solder. The integrated DM and bolt release are nice too.

I'm curious what possible bad sides this rifle might have. The stock is obviously one... but I've seen T3s riding in aftermarket stocks. Does McMillan sell one for the tikka? What about rebarrels....the stock barrel is a nice hammer forged stainless at approx 24" in 1:8 twist... can the better smiths mount aftermarket barrels to these or are they 'pressed' in ??

medicjim
Monday, July 30, 2007, at 20:31:46 (ZULU)

Chuck,

That story is one of those where you almost had to be there, but here goes.

I was talking to some folks while we were all in a van going to lunch. My old CO (3rd Force) from Vietnam and a few others. He looks at me and says, "Finger, when was the last time you smoked a Cuban?" I was kinda stuck on how to answer and wasn't sure why he was asking me this in public. He was looking at me waiting for an answer. Then it struck me.... "Oh cigars" I blurt out. Folks were rolling all over the van.

S/F

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Monday, July 30, 2007, at 21:57:25 (ZULU)

Finger: That's a first: I really did spit coffee on the keyboard!!!! On the fourth, one bro-n-law busted his last Marlboro, and the liberal bro-n-law asked "will ya smoke a camel?" I chimed in across the lawn "No, but I'll smoke the jockey in a heartbeat!" My friends father---a Nam vet from the 173rd---was the only one who laughed outta forty or so people.

Got my VA letter today. Seems I am a broke-dick old coot, or 2/3rds of a brokedick. I wonder which third is still worthwhile??? Certainly not the headspace...

MedicJim: The tikka barrel is off the same production line as my sako (no kidding--they go both ways). My sako is threaded. It is also original equipment, as the barrel is sweeeeet as-is. I'd mess with the ergonomics (but first take a look at the tactical model)--but I wouldn't mess with the barrel, especially one that spins the "heavies." Those hammered barrels are about the only reason I pay so much for hunting sticks. I get consistant subMOA performance without the 'smith bill.

Jefe: Welcome home. IIRC, you were all over the archives back a half-dozen years ago when I stumbled into this bar!

Venison BBQ is in the slowcooker...and it smells done. Yum...see ya!

Joe M
Monday, July 30, 2007, at 23:35:15 (ZULU)

Finger,

That was great! Even for an old Navy airdale such as me. Thank goodness I had just swallowed my last bit of gin & tonic or I would have sprayed everything!

Joe M.,

That ranks right up there with Finger. Think I'll finish my next drink before I read any more posts!

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 00:00:50 (ZULU)

Seems like sprayin the monitor and/or keyboard is becomin a tradition around here....

Tikka's....T3 arent as well made as the 595.T3 still a good shooter.

Undude/Mike,Glad to hear Mrs. doin great

UnPat

Unpat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 05:49:16 (ZULU)

Guys,

A friend foisted a Dillon square deal press off on me, and I can't seem to figure out why the "failsafe" bar doesn't return to the "up" position. The powder thrower is empty, so it can't be powder hanging up in there.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 06:12:18 (ZULU)

New fleabay policy. Fuck THEM!

Hello everyone…In mid-August, we will be updating our Firearms, Weapons and Knives Policy to place more restrictions around gun-related items. Once these changes take effect, we will prohibit listings of any firearm part that is required for the firing of a gun. This includes items like bullet tips, brass casings and shells, barrels, slides, cylinders, magazines, firing pins, trigger assemblies, etc. Please read the Firearms, Weapons and Knives Policy for more details on our current policy. . .

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 06:29:10 (ZULU)

Travis, Not sure what the problem could be but when you seat the primer the powder bar should return to the proper position.

I hope this helps....

They finally caught the guy that shot one of our guys the other night. Dumbshite returned home.

Jefe, Welcome back...

DirtySteve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 06:40:58 (ZULU)

>>If I have a choice of going to Hell, or digging fence post holes in Heaven, it's gonna be a squeaker. <<

OK, really, that should have been a spew alert for those of us who have spent amounts of time on the wrong end of one of those bastards. I almost soiled my keyboard. I`m jus sayin.....

Steve Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 07:08:40 (ZULU)

Finger:

I understood your story just fine. Wonderful!

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 09:25:04 (ZULU)

Guys,

Figured out the problem with the press. Operator error! It only goes up when there's a case in it!

Once I had that figured out, it started eating primers and spewing them everywhere. Cleared that, checked it out, looked GTG. THEN, I promptly broke the damn primer punch! How the FUCK I broke that, I don't know. I'm starting to understand why you old guys spend so much time devoted to scotch (yuck!) and cigars.

Also, there's some kinda yellow shit in there. Kinda powdery, sorta looks like pollen. I probably just discovered some strain of anthrax that causes you to shit out your liver or something.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 09:33:02 (ZULU)

Travis,

You might need to call Dillon. Try (800) 762-3845. They stand behind their products.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 13:40:27 (ZULU)

Broke-Dick Country

Joe M,

Don't feel bad. I am 80% Broke-dick according to VA. Life goes on though. I am going in for a MRI on my lower back Thursday. I am afraid they will want to operate this time. I might get to watch a lot of Outdoor TV for a bit. He He I had a lot of fun in this life and now it's time to pay for it.

I might have to get Chuck to come hunt with me and put dead animals up on the tail gate for me. He is still a young wipper-snapper. :)

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 16:04:40 (ZULU)

Movin' dead critters- Northern Tool & Equipment has jib cranes that fit on the back of pickups.

WR Moore
Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 16:51:01 (ZULU)

Finger: Ok, I'll sacrifice and help. I guess being under 55 qualifies as being a "whippersnapper". At the risk of undercutting my welcome, here's what I'll do. You put the deer corn and lick in the back of the pickup, and park it out at the stand the day before. The next morning, as the deer are standing around in the bed of the truck, chowing down, we shoot them and drive home.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 17:11:57 (ZULU)

Jim: That same MRI is in my future...but first I have to appeal three injuries. As is typical, my records did not show 'chronic" pathology due to my own fault. I intentionally kept my snivels to myself to avoid a MRB (or a loss of flight, jump or SF status)--and I ran out of time in my last year to correct everything. It is a two edged sword; if you record all your aches and pains you get labelled a "malingerer" and subject yourself to an early departure--and if you do not, the VA will kick your claim to the curb. Getting to 60% was solely a product of my last year, upon return from 'stan--when I had four MRIs, two surgeries and a defered surgery diagnosis, and a life-dose worth of Xrays and phys therapy. In my rush to "complete the record"--I missed a few dings. I can fix that now, but it is a PITA.

Simultaneously, I will fill out the army form for CRSC, something all vets should look into!!! I was on four agency websites, bookmarked a dozen pages, and still do not know where CRDP law currently is or what this all means to me. If you are a vet and do not know what either acronymn means---email me or see a vet org asap!

I talked with several vets yesterday. I discovered that I am not alone in ignorance of the changes to law since '03. One guy hasn't been paid for dependant/ spouse kickers for 10 years. Since 03, that is a bunch of monies...and prior to that it is a tax refund of some cha-ching. Another was unaware of concurrent receipt changes entirely (he was upgraded to qualify AFTER initial changes in law)--and thus slipped thru the cracks.

My advice to those still serving: Prior to any and all PCS moves, go to the docs and get all your minor ouches documented. Enroute to the new duty station, remove documentation from the jacket and keep for later use at your discretion (ie, worsening of condition or placement back in folder prior to final turn-in). Do not try to play catch up with a year or less left in service!!!! Unless you stayed healthy as he proverbial horse:)) I actually got a MRB referral as I updated my medical status (a review board that tosses you on your ass with ridiculously low ratings)--but had an approved retirement date within a year so I could quash the process...

Is anyone else reluctant to fill out federal registration forms (ie, auto or suppressor) to avoid a certain alphabet scrutiny? I've toyed with the idea of obtaining an FFL in the past---but I will likely never do so merely because of 1) horror stories in the media (Red's case is an on-going story) and 2) standing in my local small gun shop when a compliance inspection went down---after posted closing hours---it started off bad and was said to have gotten even worse after they kicked me out. I simply want no part of any of that. Harassment, plain and simple. Said alphabet is "proud" of the reduction of FFLs over these last few years, too.

OK, so who else changes firearms plans and goals out of 'avoidance' of the police state?

Regardless of how I want to feel---this is really a fear of authoritative excesses of a central government. To fear one's own government is as bad as it gets from the founder's perspective. I've had this same conversation last night where the opposing side called this fear "un-American." I made the case convincingly that having this fear at all makes the cause itself "un-American."

|What brought all this up is my NRA/ JPFO side-by-side comparison (click name for just one example). I have to agree with some who have said this for years: The NRA is a pantywaisted lightweight when it comes to the second ammendment. I will still support the N|RA for other reasons...but am searching for a comprehensive legal oriented org to join and support fully. JPFO seems to be a good'un.

Any suggestions?

Joe M
Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 17:37:14 (ZULU)

Good luck Joe. I started as soon as I retired (86), but luckly had good documintation in my records. I played the back and forth game to the VA hospital for years, but with the great admin skills of my wife and the Texas Vet Rep here in San Antonio (Mike Stall, Retired Marine Col.), I got up to 80% this year. I am on the CRSC, I think, the tax free plan that works with my retirement. Most of my crap is combat related so I faired better that way.

Chuck, sounds like a plan to me. :)

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 20:31:51 (ZULU)

"You will find Mortar Hunting to be very relaxing. "

OMG! Bravo, you must post excerpts and a link!!!! I am still laughing...

Joe M
Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 21:16:39 (ZULU)

Well Sarge Jr. is going through the MRB stuff right now. Still haven't made a determination whether it will be medical discharge or medical retirement. This all stems from a rappling fall from a third story window, idiot on belay WASN'T, and he fractured his ankle, surgery screws plates etc. And after this he still did an Iraq tour. So after reenlisting and going to his new unit the surgeons there decided he now has chronic arthritis in that ankle that will not improve. This made him non-deployable thus the MRB. The also has documentation of a shoulder injury that occurred during his National Guard days. He's hopipng for the Med Retirement but again this is all still up in the air! His records are currently at Ft Sam for there determination. Guess we'll see!

If any of you's guys have suggestions for him I'll give you his e-mail and you can advise!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 22:49:08 (ZULU)

Joe:

My observations from a distance:

JPFO looks like a class act. A little extreme IMHO, but their heart is in the right place. I've purchased publications from them.

Given the scalp-hunting attitude current in BATFE, I would try and steer clear of a plain FFL for now. Class III is a different matter, as long as you have a good advisor outside the agency on the hoops and pitfalls, you're probably ok to proceed. CLEO signoff in some areas can be a bear.

Lots of good Class III advice in "Small Arms Review" and the writers thereof.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/

Everyone is on BATFE radar to some degree, but the FFLs have a retroreflector strapped to their spine :-(

The (US) federal bureaucracy (esp the alphabet soup folks) has certainly evolved into a different vision than what the Founding Fathers had in mind...

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, July 31, 2007, at 23:47:17 (ZULU)

Back to Archives