Rugby: best damn contact sport there is. Was the cause of my only broken bone i've had to date *knock on wood*. Gotta love it..45min both ways with 2 hookers..woooo hooo.
USA - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 04:10:55 (ZULU)
Light 30-06, been using them for years. I like the 110 and 115 grain loads for smaller vermin. Somewhere in my collection of old crap, I have some linked 110gr fmj headstamped "30 BMG FA 51" I learned to shoot cf rifles with this ammo. Fond memories of my mom and I in the field with one of my dad's old Springfields. By fall, I was ready and took my first deer. 9 years old and I remember it like it was yeasterday. Funny how our minds work.
Sorry I'm waxing nostalgic. I lost a childhood friend last night to cancer. Nobody knew he had it. He died alone because we didn't know.
PSL, FL, US - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 11:05:07 (ZULU)
You may consider including some sort of translation for this kind of thing.
Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 13:38:37 (ZULU)
The .270WCF was first designed in 1922 by a Winchester design team under the direction of Thomas C. Johnson. Several engineers including Frank F. Burton, Arthur A. Rowley, Capt. Albert Laudensack, and Leroy Crockett spent three years developing various prototype rifles for this new cartridge which was finally released in 1925 with the debut of the Model 54 rifle.
Just a little useless trivia for those who care about such things ;)
Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 14:42:26 (ZULU)
When I was younger, I had 45 min both ways with two hookers. It was at a Korean massage parlor in California.
Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 16:06:51 (ZULU)
Get well my friend.
CA, - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 16:59:22 (ZULU)
I am looking to purchase a handheld radio for Backpacking and or what ever else. I have a GMRS radio but I want a handheld unit with a bit more power. I was looking at either a UHF or VHF. My understanding is that the VHF is better for the woods and the UHF is better for urban surroundings. I am not really interested in a HAM unit due to cost and weight.
I have a chance to get a pair of good UHF walkies from a friend of mine, but I am wondering if it will work fine in the woods or should I look around for a VHF.
I understand the UHF wave length is much smaller which allows it to penetrate buildings better but can it be used for backpacking also? I also understand that there are more VHF repeaters too. Any thoughts, experience or opinion is greatly appreciated.
Bay Area, California, USA - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 21:11:00 (ZULU)
The GMRS radios are on the UHF band (462 Mhz). They are pretty good for what they are. There are repeaters for GMRS, but they are few and far between, though in your area, they might be more popular. Often, they are closed for use by a specific group.
VHF is really not much better. In the VHF ham bands, (2 meters) repeaters are like lice on a stray dog, but you are limited to what you can say, and need the license (and so do all your friends).
I would suggest either FRS/GMRS, or citizens band talkies.
Also... remember that power (in watts) comes at the price of big and heavy.
Also... remember (#2) that power is not additive. That is to say, five watts does NOT give you five times the distance of one watt.
It may only give you 10% more distance... or no increase at all... and you will eat batteries like you have stock in Duracell.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 23:26:31 (ZULU)
I use a grinder mounted wire brush, then clean with marine clean, rinse, then treat with metal-ready, rinse, let dry, then coat with POR-15.
I have restored several cars, and used everything on the market for rust, and POR-15 works best.
Right now my daughter and I are building her first car a '78 bug convertable, and we are using large amounts of all these products.
She just got her license last week, so the pressure is on to get it finished.
I shot a racoon yesterday from the front porch in broad daylight as it ran toward the car my wife and daughter just pulled in the driveway. I suspected rabies. What the hell do people do that don't own guns?
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, July 6, 2006, at 23:40:18 (ZULU)
I own one or two, but you have to carry one for it to be of any use. What I did was to watch the new neighbors' malimute kill my kids' maltese. My closest gun was a good 50 feet away. It sucked.
Several years ago a Lib woman in Seattle said that she knew of no reason to own a gun. With a perfectly straight face I asked her what she did when she needed to kill something. She looked at me as if I had just strangled her cat.
Friday, July 7, 2006, at 03:03:21 (ZULU)
I've observed 2 behaviors on people seeing rabid critters.
1. They get enchanted with the Disney-like behavior of the infected critter and get REAL UPSET when you vaporize it.
2. Scream, flap arms and run in circles.
2A. Do group hug and scream hysterically.
"Why anyone should...." Once upon a time a veddy self important young man (chronologically my age) approached me at a posh condo that was the centerpiece of an urban development project that stalled. He asked me "Why do you feel compelled to carry that...."(pointing to my service pistol). I looked at all the nearly naked females draped around the pool deck, gazed at the area beyond the wire (OK, it was wrought iron fences-but you know what I mean.) And replied: "Because people like you pay people like me large amounts of money to protect you from people like that (point finger beyond wire).
Friday, July 7, 2006, at 06:04:40 (ZULU)
My son and I use the little Motorola 2 way radio sets ($80)? and get about 1 mile or so in hilly terrain and better on flat ground, i.e. Oklahoma :)) On batteries, carry spares and turn the backlit screen off.
PJ killed a swaggering, disoriented coon last spring in broad daylight. It acted like it had mad cow disease.
Indiana just passed an amendment to our CCW law allowing a lifetime version for $125. They increased the 4 year permit from $15 to $45. If you currently hold a 4 year the lifetime is $100.00. The treehuggers are goin crazy.
Indy, IN, USA - Friday, July 7, 2006, at 12:33:03 (ZULU)
Where is Andy's dad...?
"Sportsman Guide" has surplus .308 and .50 ammo on sale (as well as .22).
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, July 7, 2006, at 14:04:01 (ZULU)
I like the GMRS radios because of its form factor and it is good for what it is for; however, I noticed that when my battery starts getting low, range starts to diminish – that’s a given. Also, as with any other radio, it is a line of sight, with that being said, my range is limited to at times no more than 1 mile or less when I am in the mountains backpacking or going from lake to lake when fishing. I usually don’t move to far away from the other members of the backpacking trip or stray from our camp, but when I do, I want to be in communication with the other members of the group (I do inform the members of my intentions and my plans and my time of return). Other times when I go ahead of my group to scout a path down the side of a mountain or to another destination, there might be a mountain in between us, and I want the radio to be able to reach the main group prior to regrouping.
I was hoping to either pick up a VHF or UHF radio for a decent price that can give me a range between 2 to 4 miles depending on terrain. At the office, we have two types of Motorola handheld radios. The 1st is the XU2600 (UHF) and the other is XV2100 (VHF).
I have tested both and I like both. Neither is too heavy nor bulky. I understand the VHF is the way to go when in open areas or in the mountain – Lito, is my information correct? UHF is best for urban or built up areas. So far my research is pointing me in the direction of a VHF radio. I like the XV2100 but I am open to suggestions though. As for the GMRS radios, they are great for malls, amusement parks, or all around everyday events – I just hate the excess chatter that goes on with them.
Below is the URL to the handheld radios that I am looking at.
URL: http://www.123radios.com/xtn.asp or click my name.
Bay Area, CA, USA - Friday, July 7, 2006, at 15:09:00 (ZULU)
Yeah, lots. Don't know how to get rid of my "ex" without going to jail ;))) If she has rabies, can I shoot her and go free ;))).
If you don't like the chatter on the GMRS radios, get the ones with tone encoding. You set a tone code (#1 through #38) and your buddies do too... then only transmissions that have the same tone code will be heard.
The Motorolas you are looking at run on commercial frequencies and you need a commercial business license that is limited to your business application.
Plus, without a business repeater, they will give you the same ranges as the cheaper FRS/GMRS radios.
I have bought FRS radios, with tone code (and voice scramble encoders) for $30 to $40 a pair.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, July 7, 2006, at 15:32:45 (ZULU)
Those (12 mile limit) are the same ones that we have been talking about - GMRS/FRS.
In real life 1 to 3 miles in open country.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 01:43:31 (ZULU)
Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 03:58:35 (ZULU)
Sarge Jr "Over and Oit"
"TO THE TOP"
"CLIMB TO GLORY"
Fort Dumb, NY, USA - Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 12:17:54 (ZULU)
Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 13:58:52 (ZULU)
"Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid."
That being said, who's the dumb sonofabitch that decided to design the GM power-steering pump such that you have to remove the pulley to access the attach bolts? I'd like to strangle the whore that gave birth to that asshole.
Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 19:07:18 (ZULU)
I have had trouble getting my hands on The TRG 3 ring 30mm Tactical Scopemount with the built in 30 MOA. I ordered the beast a couple months ago and have checked on it a couple times since then. Each time I was told it would be here when I needed to pick it up for my trip, needless to say it wasn't. So the question is do any of you know of a gunstore that has the scope mount in that I could order it directly from. Cause the run around I am getting has flown past old and cut the fuse REALLY short...
Thanks guys hope everything is going well.
Talk to you later....
Personally I like onr of John Wayne's line from McKlintock ... Pilgrim, someone should hit you, but I won't...I won't...The hell I won't...
San D, CA, - Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 19:43:27 (ZULU)
Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 20:04:51 (ZULU)
Note - If you replace the barrel with something pushing a bit more twist...those sierra 7mm 175 pills are nice...I hear the Bergers are really good too.
Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 20:56:05 (ZULU)
Saturday, July 8, 2006, at 22:40:53 (ZULU)
Lugs is ears.
When I start speaking foreign it's because of the common riding..'ere's the notice:
That there is a muckle Fair to be hadden in the muckle Toun o' the Langholm on the xxth day of July, auld style, upon his Grace the Duke of Buccleuch's Merk Lands, for the space of eight days and upwards; and a' land-loupers, and dub-scoupers, and gae-by-the-gate swingers, that come to breed hurdums or durdums, huliments or buliments, hagglements or bragglements, or to molest this public Fair,they shall be ta'en by order of the Bailey and Toun Cooncil, and their lugs be nailed to the tron wi' a twalpenny nail, and they shall sit doun on their bare knees and pray seven times for the King and thrice for the Muckle Laird o' Ralton, and pay a groat tae me, Jamie Ferguson, Baillie o' the aforesaid Manor, and I'll away hame and hae a Bannock and a saut herring tae ma denner by way o' auld style.
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 00:09:30 (ZULU)
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think
>>>Pilgrim, someone should hit you, but I won't...I won't...The hell I won't...<<<
is from the "Sons of Katy Elder", said just before he backhanded the Blacksmith with an axe-handle... I roll in the aisle everytime I see that movie
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 02:29:18 (ZULU)
Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 02:36:05 (ZULU)
Too bad there's no Scottish English to American English translation mode on Babelfish :-)
I believe a similarly applicable quotation goes something like this:
England and America are two countries separated by a common language.
George Bernard Shaw
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 02:37:40 (ZULU)
Members are provided access to a John Deere Gator to go down range and post targets and paint steel disks. Its a little pricey at $300.00 first year and $200.00 each year after and you must be a NRA member. There is a berm at each distance from 100-1000 in 100 yd increments with hanging 3" 6" 9" and 12" gongs out to 500 yds. From 500 out to 1000 theres an additional 24 in gong. At the 1000 yd line there is an iron maiden and a 3 ft gong.
I found a load for the Car 16" that tracks the BDC in the ACOG like it is on rails. Using the 69 SMK/25.5 grains of Varget @ abot 2700 FPS, it is effortless to hit steel out to 600 yds. Took the 700 out Fri for the first shooting past 200 yds. It was a dead calm day and I was happy to see a 600 yd group come in under 3" out of a stock 700 VS in HS stock with alum bedding block. This barrel is a hummer as far as factory barrels go. I was using the 308M cam and it printed high past 500 yds so I re-read Lito,s cam info and found I need th 30-06 cam for the 175SMK @2685 FPS. I will re-try that cam later this week.
The place has the added bonus of being surrounded by farmland where woodchucks are plentiful AND fair game. One had the misfortune to come out of the scrub and head for the 100 yd berm while I was shooting distance. I dialed down to 100 yd zero and the dumb-ass stood up like a bowling pin. Needless to say he got a 175 gr headache real quick!
There are a lot of LE types who shoot there and the guys I have met so far are great. I drive 40 miles to get there but would drive further if necessary and make a weekend out of it. I am told the owners will allow small camping vehicles to stay overnights though I havn't seen it happen yet. I am hooked on the long range thing and am getting my data book started for windage and comeups. If you live in north central IN you should check it out. Str8shot out.
south central, MI, USA - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 03:36:10 (ZULU)
Give H4831SC a try with the 162 grain AMAX... start at 61 or so grains and work up. Target the high end of the 2850-2900 fps range. From memory (please verify with Hogdons reloading website)...
Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 04:09:15 (ZULU)
Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 14:14:19 (ZULU)
Anyone else get an email from "firstname.lastname@example.org" with a subject of "Hello" and an attachment? Methinks some ne'er do well is at it again? Gooch, is it safe to say you didn't send me anything?
MD, - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 20:15:48 (ZULU)
I'm going to put together a 7WSM for 600/1000 F-Class. I wanted to have a 7mm but not the run of the mill .280 or 7RemMag. From what I could put together, it should have performance equalling the 7RemMag which is plenty enough to push the 175 and 180 grain bullets with ease.
The 1 mile record was fired with a customized Savage in 7WSM. I wish I could give more facts and figures but I don't have much.
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 22:41:29 (ZULU)
Checked the virus filter that my local phone company provides and had two from Gooch, one from dc8plumber, and one from Condor. I hate the worthless bums that send out that crap.
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, July 9, 2006, at 23:14:12 (ZULU)
Youngs is a great place and they're great people to boot. They also have spotting scopes and chrono's available for use as well. Targets are always there. The elevated shooting deck kinda spoils ya though. No ants or spiders or snakes to distract ya. I wish it wasn't 2.5 hours away.
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Monday, July 10, 2006, at 12:34:23 (ZULU)
An acquaintance stumbled across one of the Blazer Tactical Rifles in Kalifornia. They are asking $2,500.00 for the darn thing sans scope.
That seems a bit high to me. What kind of reputation has the Blazer Tactical garnered? Anyone have any experience with them?
Have to admit I don't know much about them...not even sure they're made any more. Wasn't Sauer the manufacturer?
Your assistance would be appreciated.
Salem, OR, USA - Monday, July 10, 2006, at 18:12:18 (ZULU)
Tell your friend to run from the Blaser..for 2500 he can buy somethin much much betterer..
What info you looking for regarding the 7wsm? I got some notes I can dig up from work.. We've run the P-Max on that case, load testing, this and that, as it's one of the F-classy cartridges we're playing with this year..
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, July 10, 2006, at 18:36:46 (ZULU)
Monday, July 10, 2006, at 22:34:55 (ZULU)
Morgue's quote: >>>Personally I like onr of John Wayne's line from McKlintock ... Pilgrim, someone should hit you, but I won't...I won't...The hell I won't...<<< is correct.
My quote is also correct.
CDC's quote is incorrect. I watched McClintock again last night. He threw the shotgun back to the 'Pilgram' and hit him with his fist.
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, July 10, 2006, at 23:16:37 (ZULU)
Blaser R93 Rifle Safety Recall -- Trigger assembly
A small number of non-stainless-steel pins were inadvertantly used in the trigger assembly of some R93 rifles and can result in an accidental discharge if the pin becomes corroded and the rifle is in the cocked (off-safe) position. The UIT, CISM and LRS/LRS2 are not affected by this recall. WARNING: Use of your R93 rifle may result in an accidental severe injury or death to the user of bystander. Stop using your R93 immediately. Do not use your rifle until it has been inspected. Call toll-free: 877-442-7671 (8 a.m. - 5 p.m. EST) to coordinate the free inspection of your Blaser R93 rifle. Alternate: contact SIGARMS, Inc. or phone 603-772-2302. You can verify the R93 you're buying. To indicate the R93 has been inspected and certified, a "P" inside a circle will be placed on the left side of the trigger.
Gerry, leave the Blaser R93 well alone, it is a cheap piece of shit, that happens to be pretty expensive, it reminds me of a toy gun i had when i was a kid, made in Taiwan.. The Blaser is an accurate rifle, i can't argue with that, which testifies that mass produced, hammer forged barrels can be very accurate, the lock up of the rifle is an interesting affaire, in my opinion this kind of radial flanged lock up deserves further developement, however the material used on the R93 is simply not up to the job it is required to do, we have had cases here in germany of the radial flanges failing which means you get the whole breach mech right in your kisser. The R93 from Blaser, whichever version is like furnature from Ikea, good ideas let down by poor investment in developement and quality of materials. The rifle is mostly alluminium and plastic and will not, i repeat will not stand up to the day in day out abuse of heavey hunting, much less actual sniper rifle deployment or hard range use. I know that Sig Arms are promoting the Blaser R93, but believe you me, the Blaser is not up to in any way the quality of the Sig name and is only in there because the guys who own Sig also own Sauer and Sohn, Kettner,Sig arems and a few others. The 338 Lap version cannot be barrel interchanged with the other calibers as far as i know. Now if you are interested in a switch barrel sniper rifle, look at the Tactical version of the SHR970, or the SSG3000.and if you want a realy nice rifle look at the SWS2000.
The Sako TRG family of sniper weapons are FAR FAR superior to the R93, and if you gave me the choice between an R93 LRS2 and a Ruger, then i'd take the ruger..
D - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 10:37:00 (ZULU)
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 00:09:55 (ZULU)
My memory is that he threw it to the guy then hit him with his patented pulled-back-past-the-ear-and-would-never-work right lead. Then they threw mudpies.
Damn this CRS.
Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 02:42:49 (ZULU)
>>>It's from "McClintock" and it was a double-barrel.<<<
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 03:13:07 (ZULU)
Pablo: What do you think of buying a used Loopy scope that has Loopy standard rings (the ones with the front dovetail and the back with the windage screw things) attached. It is obvious that the guy just took out the windage screws and used the scope as a wrench.
Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 04:36:28 (ZULU)
Take off the rings and check for ring marks - then buy it for what you think it's worth.
The tubes are very strong... and they have life time warrantees.
Tell the guy you need to knock off $XX.XX because he used the scope for a wrench ;)))
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 13:05:16 (ZULU)
JR, you been at that single malt again eh?
Rod,Wes, everything i said about the R93 back then still stands. They are an accurate piece of tinny junk. the only thing thats changed about my whole statement is that i can no longer recomend the SWS2000 as a switch barrel sniper type rifle, I took on the UK dealership for SWS2000. Paid a hefty deposit to het some exhibition rifles, after a year of bieng lied to and getting messed about they finaly delivered the biggest pile of junk i've ever seen ( JR and Jon B saw it too) the out come was a lawyer on the case and finaly got my money back. Its a shame because the action they use is a nice piece of kit, but like my mate says, you can give the best ingredients to a cook, if the cook doesn't know his job ist gonna taste like shit anyway.
There seems to be a trend developing here in Krautland away from these modular designs back to more traditional type bolt actions.. makes sense to me.
D - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 13:26:31 (ZULU)
LOL! That statement is a classic, it applies to many, many products.
Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 15:35:18 (ZULU)
Thanks and God Bless
Devon St Cyr
Devon St Cyr
Durham, NH, US - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 16:46:52 (ZULU)
Here are some requirements that I've thought of -
Variable power with around 6x maximum on the low end and around 20x on the high side.
30mm tube diameter. I like the increased amount of adjustment as opposed to 1" tubes.
Target turrets. I don't really need a BDC on this one.
Parallax adjustable, with a preference toward a side focus turret.
High build quality including good glass, accurate adjustments, and all the other features normally associated with a high quality optic.
I already own several good tactical scopes including MK4 M1 10x, MK4 M1 16x, MK4 M3 10x, MK4 LR M3 3.5-10x, MK4 MR M3 3-9x, and a good old B&L Tactical 10, so I don't lack for a true tactical scope. This new acquisition can sit higher and can be heavier and have higher magnification than what I'd normally use on a tactical rifle.
These are some scopes that I have in mind so far -
Nikon 4-16x50mm Tactical. I've heard good things about this scope.
Nightforce NXS 5.5-20x50mm. Big, heavy, and expensive but lots of shooters swear by it.
IOR (several models). I understand they have great glass but I don't know a heck of a lot about them. Warranty problems & overseas repairs?
Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50mm. 1" tube limits adjustment range.
Burris Xtreme Tactical 6-24x50mm. An unknown, is it too new to judge? I like its one-turn elevation turret, but I've heard some bad reports on QC and customer service since the Beretta buy-out.
Leupold 6.5-20x50mm MK4 LR M1 or 4.5-14x50mm. What can I say other than it would pain me to buy one after what they did to Premier?
EDITED TO SAY - A Scmidt & Bender is out of the question 'cause I can't afford one *:0
What am I missing?
OK, hawgs. I'm looking for some feedback from youse guys. All comments and suggestions will be appreciated, even if they're ones that I don't want to hear ;))
Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 18:27:49 (ZULU)
Stinky hot, PA, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 20:21:23 (ZULU)
Fwiw, George Gardner has had great success winning LR matches using 180gr Berger's in the 7mm WSM, have one being built as we speak.
Stinky hot, PA, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 20:21:33 (ZULU)
>>JR, you been at that single malt again eh?>>
Not yet..found some Erdinger weissbeir at Tescos though..Tried mixing some of that new Coke Zero w/it..not too shabby..Single malt will be indulged in a fortnight..
Say, do you ever see salted roasted edible sunflower seeds in the husk over in the farterland Pete? Sell em like mad in the states, like crack cocaine at the truck stops..Jolt cola and a bag o' seeds for the long haul..Trying to find em here with no luck..
Dan, what range and what game..spoiled for choice in 7mm really..There are some hornady's you might want to look at, in the 160-175 gr range...also the 140's will fly about as flat as a table for a few yards, good looking bullets for the mid range..Case necks too short, hmm..Not sure what factory standard throat length is, but we and other targety shooters alike are fitting 180 grain bullets to this cartridge with no seating problems..Got lot's of comments..Barrel is a bit short to take advantage of the case, but who cares, load up and blast some rounds..That action will come in handy someday. Why do you think I bought an M70 Shadow in 270 WSM two year ago?
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, July 11, 2006, at 21:53:55 (ZULU)
Hit to 1,000 or kill deer-sized game to 600 or thereabouts. All purpose killer. I'll shoot few F-Troop matches for practice and experience, but this isn't a dedicated target rig. It's too light.
What powders do you recommend for 160ish gr boolets? Will the factory twist stabilize 175s? If so, what powder would you use for them?
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 00:32:59 (ZULU)
This is my first post,and I come to you all with a need for help.
I am a Texas National Guard soldier,and I will be attending the National Guard component Sniper School later in the year.I feel that I am well prepared for the course.I was recently a graduate of the Squad Designated Marksmen course and I have been assigned to sniper teams in the past.I have operated in that capacity in Iraq as well,however the opportunity to use the skills never occured for me there.
To get to the point,if anyone out there has been to the guard sniper school at Camp Robinson,or the active component school at Fort Benning,I could REALLY use any helpfull info,tips or heads-up you can give me.As I said,I feel confident,but the more info I can get the better.
Fort Worth, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 01:45:22 (ZULU)
Here is a russian model I ran across. You can take a look see. The price tag on this one was about $1300. I have considered the russian scopes for some of my rifles. Below is from their scope info.
PPO 8-32x60 F Military Sniper II Series Rifle Scope with Dual Anti-Parallax Fine Focus and Ocular Focusing Ring ( #GSPPOII83260F )
Kalinka Optics PPO 8-32x60 F Military Sniper II Series® w/ Dual Independent Focus and Diopiter Zoom Rifle Weapon Scope. New for 2006!! The newest, most advanced in the Kalinka Optics Military Series®, the PPO 8-32x60 F Sniper II uses cutting edge technology to create a short, compact scope with extremely high magnification. Its optical scheme gives great clarity throughout the magnification band while its robust glass gathers a tremendous amount of light. The top-grade advanced Russian aircraft aluminum composite ensures that the scope will last a lifetime. The PPO 8-32x60 is the shortest 32x magnification scope currently on the market. Built in our Russian factory using cutting edge German technology, the PPO F is competitive with the most advanced scopes in the world at a fraction of their cost. With advanced coatings, an oversized 30 mm tube and a huge sixty millimeter front objective you receive an immense amount of light for crystal clear resolution. The large front objective requires that you use high profile rings or side mounts. We recommend using Ernst Apel GmbH and ÌÀÊ mounts. This scope is especially suited to handle large calibers and can be used on any weapon no matter how large including any type of pneumatic weapon. It excels on big military rounds as well as it does on small shot for plinking. For maximum accuracy, clicks are in milliradians giving you exact adjustments. While MOA adjustments are sufficient at shorter ranges, long range one-shot kills require milliradian adjustments, at 1000 yards an MOA scope may be more than 2 feet off depending on caliber and round ballistics. With the PPO F you can change the magnification and focus totally independently. The ‘F’ denotes a special focusing function that is a very expensive feature found on only the finest scopes. It allows you to fine focus at ANY distance without changing the magnification and eliminates parallax. The dual binocular-style diopiter focusing ring and forward fine focus parallax ring ensure that you never miss a shot. What’s more, you can lock onto a target by clearly focusing from 10 meters to over 2 kilometers. These professional scopes are done by order and are not mass produced by the factory. This is one of the strongest, most powerful and capable scopes made. The latest version of this model comes with a custom modified MilDot reticle special for Western shooters. A unique feature of this pattern consists in that the reticle is equally convenient to use both at low magnification, when the dots and circles are smaller and at high magnifications when holdover adjustments become important. This is the most advanced scope we offer, a definite BEST CHOICE! Comes with professional optics carry case.
In addition if i offended anyone with my John Wayne Statement I wish to appoligize. I truely meant no mallice.
Texas, - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 03:09:35 (ZULU)
No offense, no malice. I did not remember the statement in McClintock. I do remember it from the Sons of Katie Elder...
I got to watch McClintock again. CAN'T be a BAD thing!
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 03:41:36 (ZULU)
Thanks for the input.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 04:24:29 (ZULU)
Larry Porter: Juan didn't give the "...the Hell I won't..." speech before caving in the guy's face in "The Sons of Katie Elder". The situation was all wrong for it. Watch it again.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 04:26:05 (ZULU)
Wow, you dug up an old post! I took Peter Lincoln's advice and didn't buy the Blaser...took the money, ran away and wound up picking up a second M14 Peerless from Fulton Armory...sure is fun! Unfortunately all the mergers in the banking industry had me looking for a new job and now I'm in southwestern Ohio without a place to shoot long range (I sure miss Oregon and my old full time telecommuting job...only job I've ever had where I could go shooting at lunch time in my own yard!) Anyone have any suggestions on ranges in the Cincinnati area? Movie trivia question:
1981 Christopher Walken movie "Dogs of War"...What was the little rotary magazine semi-automatic grenade launcher. Was that thing for real? A couple of years ago, one of the gun magazines had a classified ad from a Hollywood studio with one for sale...hmmmmm
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 04:59:28 (ZULU)
Thanks for the heads-up on that Loopy. It looks like a heck of a deal.
Now I'll just have to find out how much $ the custom shop will charge to swap out a set of M1 turrets to see if it's worth my while to do that.
Gotta twirl those knobs, ya know ;)
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 05:02:31 (ZULU)
Alan here is a link for salt lake optics. They seem to have some pretty good prices and i have bought glass from them before. This link pulls up all the loopys. Got a spin box at the top you can pull up all the burris as well. Tasco too..lol.. :)
or click my name
Texas, - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 05:38:11 (ZULU)
Go into the Leupold link in "Hot Links" and check out the things Loopy is doing with custom M1, M2(?), M3 and target turrets. Some of the stuff would bear discussing here. I'm getting ready to do a little calculating and break out the Visa cards. Pablo probably knows a great deal about it.
JR: What are your thoughts concerning the laminated wood stock on the Winchester Coyote? I understand that laminated wood is as stable as death. If a guy could get the dimensions right, why wouldn't that stock work as well as any other?
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 06:20:15 (ZULU)
Pete, No problem brother. I'll give you a call Saturday or so-dinner time on your end?
Zane, Run like hell from Kalinka. They suck. I have some experience with them. I did an evaluation a few years ago, wrote the guy a nice long critique. He edited it and put it on his site like a letter of praise. Their warranty sucks, their products suck, you can never get ahold of anyone when you need to. From what I understand, they were all set to manufacture for Horus, but one of them backed out. The scopes aren't even Russian...There is a guy in St Petersburg importing them from China and selling them as Russian scopes. What's latin for "Buyer, run away?"
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 11:08:20 (ZULU)
I have one of the 4.5x14s with the 30mm tube and the side focus. I really like it. I sent it to Premier an had the MK-4 knobs put on it. Its one of my favorite scopes. I only wish you could order one with a tactical milling reticle in it. I don't know why they don't offer it in this scope.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 13:17:51 (ZULU)
I would love to watch it again, but I don't have a copy. I believe you to be correct, though...
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 13:43:26 (ZULU)
Glad Alan is looking at loopy. Can't go wrong with them. Warrenty as long as you are breathing. Had a relative snap a crosshair up in idaho elk hunting. His scope was 20 years old. Leupold fixed it free without blinking an eye. Gave him the reticle of his choice.
Texas, - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 14:18:25 (ZULU)
Those laminated stocks are as stable as granite. I like the ones that are shaped similar to the old Winchester Marksman design. Downside is that they're heavy.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 15:39:38 (ZULU)
I always looked at laminated stocks as wood-toned fiberglass, but heavier. Future archeologists will be digging them up.
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 16:58:07 (ZULU)
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 20:12:47 (ZULU)
Have heard that George has built at least one rifle using this stock.
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 20:52:16 (ZULU)
I don't consider myself any kind of authority on laminated stocks, but here's what I've observed over the years -
A properly inletted and bedded laminated stock does not have to be pillar bedded, but many of them are.
As I understand it, the main reason for pillars is so the stock isn't compressed when torquing down the action screws.
A high quality laminated stock will hold the (pretty much) standard 65 in. lb. action screw tension without compressing or otherwise suffering from tightening the action screws to that spec.
Many folks pillar bed a perfectly good laminated stock 'cause they think that its "the thing to do".
That's my story and I'm sticking to it until somebody with more knowledge on the subject corrects me :))
Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 22:05:54 (ZULU)
Apparently a bit of movie magic, not a real product:
According to Dlask Arms: "The Dogs of War, starring Christopher Walken and Tom Berenger, required a special assault weapon for the commando team. Dlask Arms helped to create the unforgettable 12-gauge combat shotgun with a 20-round rotary magazine that perfectly met the movie's needs."
Now, for the real thing - check out the 40mm M-32:
Posted 20-Mar-2006 07:13
While high-tech weapons items get a lot of billing, the Global War on Terror is very much an infantry war. Firepower overmatch matters in those situations. Enter the US Marine Corps' newest weapon, recently introduced to Regimental Combat Team 5, based in Camp Fallujah: the M-32 six-shot 40mm grenade launcher. During an annual symposium, Marine gunners decided an improvement was needed over the old M203 one-shot launchers that mount under their M4 or M16 rifles. The M-32 won out, and each Marine battalion will field them as an experimental weapon.
A September 2005 DID article covered the popularity of 40mm grenade systems on the modern battlefield. The M-32 is a modified Milkor MGL-140 with additional features like the buttstock, sights, foregrip, et. al. It can put all 6 rounds on target in under 3 seconds, and can fire "normal" M433 40mm grenades or specialty rounds. Specialty rounds include HELLHOUND rounds with twice the lethal radius of the M433, which will breach doors and kill anything behind them; DRACO thermobaric rounds; and even HUNTIR rounds with cameras in them that descend on a parachute and send back video. The USMC will join the Brazilian, Italian and South African militaries as MGL-140 customers, and Defense Review notes that the USMC has ordered 9,000 of them.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, July 12, 2006, at 23:55:01 (ZULU)
Thursday, July 13, 2006, at 00:25:48 (ZULU)
O.K. now you have me wondering...What did Leupold do to Premier as you mentioned in your other post?I ask because I really like my Leupold and I dont like to be ill-informed on something I like...preticullarly when its an ethical thing as it sounds like.
On the scope thing...Had a few buddies in the sandbox that got their dirty mits on some U.S.Optics glass.As for me,I have never used their gear personally,dont know if they offer the type glass you are looking for.However,my buddies were so impressed with their gear that they would have written love songs about them if they would have had any musical talent.As it went,they couldnt have carried a tune in a bucket,so they just told me they were nice scopes.
Anyhow,I didnt see them on your list,so check em out if you didnt allready.
Fort Worth, Texas, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2006, at 04:07:31 (ZULU)
OK, I'll try to make it short and sweet. In doing that I'll probably leave out some important details. Anybody else should chime in if they wish.
Dick Thomas, founder of Premier Reticles (now deceased) helped to put Leupold on the map in both the competitive marksmanship and the military contract areas.
Competitive marksmen wanted several features on their scopes that Leupold didn't offer in the begining such as power increases (mostly for benchrest shooting) and custom reticles to suit different shooting purposes and styles. Some hunters also desired custom designed reticles. Leupold didn't offer these options at the time and Dick Thomas recognized those needs and filled them by offering aftermarket power boosts and reticle changes for Leupold scopes. These modifications became very popular and it could be said that many Leupold scopes were sold due to Premiers ability to customize them to suit their users.
Leupold later realized that these modifications sold a heck of a lot of their scopes and started making many of them available through special order from their own custom shop, but that was OK, Premier was a small business and kept themselves plenty busy with their custom work, along with selling Leupold scopes and accessories. Both companies enjoyed a good working relationship, with Premier performing some Leupold warranty repairs on scopes they were working on and Leupold honoring their warranty on Premier modified Leupold scopes.
On the military side of things, the US Army was looking for a scope to employ on their new M24 SWS. They first approached John Unertl, who was manufacturing his USMC Sniper 10x scope for the Corps at the time. Unertl was plenty busy with the USMC contract, and some say he was pissed off at the Army for snubbing him in the past, but in any case Unertl wouldn't bid on a scope for the Army contract. Leupold entered the contract battle and won it, except for one problem - the Army wanted a mil-dot reticle and Leupold didn't (or couldn't) offer one. The reasons for that are another story. Enter Dick Thomas. He contracted with Leupold to install his mil-dot reticles in the new Leupold Ultra (now MK4) series scopes for the Army M24 SWS contract thus putting Leupold on the map as a prime military contractor and selling very large amounts of their scopes to the military, other gov't agencies, and the rapidly growing civilian tactical market.
Then things begin to get a little hazy. Dick Thomas invented his Gen. II mil-dot reticle and started putting it into the first focal plane on Leupold variable power scopes. I understand that he had a patent on this reticle, but Leupold wanted to use it and attempted to get around paying royalties to Premier. Some bad blood ensued between the two. In the meantime, Leupold came under a new upper-level manager who took advantage of Dick Thomas' bad health (he eventually passed away while on the operating table during heart surgery) by instituting a new policy at Leupold. Leupold wanted to take Premiers business away and make the money for themselves at their own Custom Shop. They were also angry because Leuplod lost the bid to manufacture scopes for the new USMC contract, which went to Schmidt & Bender, with Premier installing their Gen. II mil-dot in those scopes for S&B before shipping tham to the Marines. They effectively stopped selling Premier the parts that they needed to work on Leupold scopes and at the same time announced that they would no longer honor the warranty on Premier modified Leupold scopes after a certain date.
This screwed the Thomas family out of a very large portion of their income.
All this after Dick Thomas pretty much put them on the map!
So you can see why I hesitate to do any business with Leupold in the future.
The US Optics situation is a whole other ball of wax and I won't get into it other than to say that I never liked the way they did business under the old man, and I didn't appreciate the way they tried to steal the Unertl Company from Mrs. Unertl after Johns death, but those are strictly my opinions and my opinions alone. If they want to get into a pissing contest because I expressed an opinion on the internet let them have at it! I've got nothing for them to sue for anyway ;)
I hope that I've been able to answer your question. There are certain people out there who have much more knowledge about this than I do, and I'm certainly open to their thoughts on both these matters.
Thursday, July 13, 2006, at 10:28:45 (ZULU)
Thanks man, if you can get seeds over the border that would be cool, fisher or dakota kid..Hard to find, found one source, but it's 4 pounds sterling for 10 ounces!! and that's for Planters!! should just have the folks send a bag over.. Brought some back when I was over in florida, and my partner in grime became real addicted, when we ran out he was in low spirits..
twist probably too slow for 175's, usually running 8.5 minimum in 32" barrels for those pills...but try the 162's...Best case fill is with RL-25, but your barrel is probably too short, and it's a dirty powder that..I'll do some more checking on 4831..Laminate stocks are fine if they are made straight, bed them and they won't let you down...there are a couple good trigger sets for the winnie if you aren't happy with the factory..theres a few of our 7WSM's down at Bisley camp for the next 9 days, will update how they do at range...
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, July 13, 2006, at 22:08:26 (ZULU)
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 01:01:31 (ZULU)
I gots a nickle that says this is the beginning of the big one :((
Seems like all the major players have been sitting at a card table waiting for someone to open... looks like hisbolla has just raised the pot, and Iran is fronting their hand.
Martha says, "... and that's not a good thing!"
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 02:35:52 (ZULU)
Could it be that the combination of bore size, bullet weight, and case capacity just works out well for this powder in this particular instance?
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 02:40:45 (ZULU)
I've got more than a nickle that says you're right.
Some of you may have remembered that I made a comment over a year ago to keep your eyes on Damascus.
I'm repeating it again.
Texas, United States of America - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 03:06:54 (ZULU)
Yep. And Tehran.
"TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Thursday an Israeli strike on Syria would be considered an attack on the whole Islamic world that would bring a "fierce response", state television reported.
"If the Zionist regime commits another stupid move and attacks Syria, this will be considered like attacking the whole Islamic world and this regime will receive a very fierce response," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying in a telephone conversation with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad."
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 04:10:04 (ZULU)
Poor misguided fools, they really don't know what they're doing.
The only people who can stop us, and similarly the IDF, are our own citizens and our own treacherous media. Those fools go NBC and it's all over except for the decontaminating. S/F....Ken M
IL, USA - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 07:43:20 (ZULU)
A little long, but worth it.
PSL, FL, US - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 11:29:30 (ZULU)
N.W., ILL, - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 11:41:51 (ZULU)
That's about as fair a summation on the Loopy/Premier thing as I've seen.
The Loopy 6.5 x 20 is the scope I think you're lookin for. I had a Gen2 reticle put in one awhile back and it's the cats meow for what you described.
Indy, IN, USA - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 12:12:50 (ZULU)
The Klein reticle is a poor version of the Gen II.
It was the reticle that the Patent office used to try to deny Premier Reticle the patent on the Gen II.
I was the guy that made and wrote the challenge to the patent office for Dick Thomas.
We won, and the patent for the Gen II was granted (much to the dismay of U.S. Optics and Leupold ;).
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 12:21:24 (ZULU)
Moishe Dyan was asked for the key to military success. He said, "Always fight Arabs."
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 13:33:23 (ZULU)
Iran will do what it can to support the savages, but will need to get physically involved if their side is to prevail.
The US will step in if that happens.
If the above scenario takes place OPEC will embargo oil to the West as it has during similar circumstances in the past.
The question is, does the US have the fortitude to see it through to a reasonable conclusion, or will a coalition of soccer moms and yuppie scum whining about the cost of fuel needed to keep driving their status symbol SUV's and heat their McMansions join up with the organized left wing and their media stooges to force us to bow out of the conflict and abandon our only REAL allies in the Mideast?
I suppose only time will tell!
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 14:55:49 (ZULU)
Before i pull the plug next year i'm going to have a Schmidt @ Bender scope. I know of one with a Klien reticle,but it will stay where it's at.
N.W., ILL, - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 15:31:53 (ZULU)
It looks like the "real deal" but it is poo-poo and is all show - no go.
Get a Gen II if your stick is a tactical match riffle.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 17:14:15 (ZULU)
Wish we would start running more corn squeezing for fuel. Brazil is about 90% alcohol and 10% oil. 80 cents a gallon or so at the pump. With our vast farm land we should be able to produce mega bootleg.
Texas, - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 18:17:10 (ZULU)
I read further and noticed you already know all this. I'll leave it as my .02 on the subject anyway (and I typed, with two little fingers, all those letters).
Duman: if GM engineers got you hot; try a Honda power steering replacement. I'm driving a rack and pinion un-assisted wide-tired car that IS a workout...because it is too much a PITA to fix. I know what you are speaking! But in my case, I just recall that we nuked 'em once upon a time and figure this is just pay back.
Dan: How many times did Mr. Wayne toss his hat to the weather vane in a row? Heheh...
Rod R: Re-read the Doug Adams collection in the desert; still funny as hell! (I caught the reference)
Pete: "I'd take the ruger" says alot...
Jody: Shoot the rifle you will take to the course. A lot.
Sarge: Those are GREAT stocks for those with wooden hearts! The best of both worlds; that bedding is similar to the composites made by HS precision...
Iran: Hezballah and the Mahdi Army have direct links. Seen these myself in Al-Hillah and Najef. Iran is now and has for long years supported this terr group in Lebanon. Support is much deeper than our standard concept; it is more and extension of the revolutionary guards (direct ties to all levels of the Iranian Gov). All I have to say on this subject is: Now is the time. Later is too late.
That said: I dropped my retirement packet this week. If WWIII does not break out in the interim--my last day in uniform will be 22 January 2007. My retirement roles' day will be 1 May. I now have a vested, personal interet in the current mess we are watching unfold in the middle east.
Embargo? Not likely anymore. The market must move---these nations have mortaged their exports heavily vis a vis extravagent lifestyles of too many princes and cousins, social programs that are hugely expensive (but serve to keep a lid on unrest and dissatisfaction relating to the last point), to legit infrastructure investments that directly and indirectly impact these very exports (terminals, refineries etc). In the world today, a secondary market would short circuit any such targeted embargo (albeit at a mark up that we would gladly pay without a blink). In that scenario--the outcome would be a rapid decrease in demand, falling commodity prices, and ruin for the coffers in the exporting countries. The ONLY way to beat these market forces is to shut down their exports entirely. And that is as unlikely as cold fusion powering my diesel tomorrow. Embargo my ass. The outcome would a richer China, and a much poorer OPEC. They also know this. This is over-simplified for editorial purposes, but it outlines the processes that did not exist in the early 70s. Before you argue my case against--bear in mind that $175/ barrel oil will roll over any and all obstructions to the Arctic Refuge, and the west coast of Florida, like a steamroller off of Pike's Peak.
Finally, a related topic:
My DPMS LR .260 arrived last night. Interesting stick. The truth will come out in the shooting over time. Will post as things develop.
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 18:24:52 (ZULU)
Don't have a map handy, how doable is armored assault on Iran from Isreal? The analysis of the last time Isreal went after Syria had the tanks stopping their advance on Damascus about 25 miles short for political reasons. Syria seems to exist because Isreal doesn't want colonies-or more Arabs inside Isreal.
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 18:45:00 (ZULU)
The dirty RL-25 in our case could be partly due to ignition with the 175-180 grain 7mm bullet range. We're also playing with H1000 which is slightly cleaner, but you don't get the velocity. Plus Alliant powders are getting hard to find over here..Ya'll havin any problems getting components in?
I know you been pretty busy, have you had any time to play with ammo manufacture? oh, and did I mention we bought some gear from Corbins, and are in the baby step phase of bulletmakin? ha..
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 20:47:37 (ZULU)
What you said!! I couldn't have said it better... even with FOUR fingers (I'mm a gud tiper ;)
Nothing now. Before this poo-poo started, I spoke to the town and they gave me the verbal go-a-head, and the papers to fill out. It will be no problem... they just want to make sure that I won't blow up the neighborhood ;) (Little do they know...).
I just don't have the time or energy. I just got a judge to OK a whole new motion for custody... and Mary found something squirreled away in the "Connecticut Pratice Book" (The laws of CT)... that allows me to make a motion for "Emergency custody", while the Looooong motion goes forwards. I think I have a shot at it, cuz he has failed ALL of his courses, and the school refuses to allow him back in Sept... and two independant shrinks say he is a serious state of depression over the custody thing.
I gots all my fingers crossed.
Mean while, he is here this weekend, and he's a riot. I gots the best Rug Rat in the world!! And that's a fact, Jack!!
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 21:46:19 (ZULU)
I've been playing around with H1000 also. Just got back from the range a very short while ago, as a matter of fact. Disappointing results with 48gr. H1000, 107SMK's seated .015" from the lands, Win brass and primers in the .243 Win. Velocity was 3071, good SD and ES but erratic grouping. Three shots touching and two out about .75" in different directions. Haven't figured it out at this point, but I'm gonna switch powders to Re25 and keep the rest of the stuff the same to see what kind of difference that might make. It just keeps throwing those 115DTAC-Re25 loads into four-tenths all day long :))
I haven't seen any component shortages in my neck of the woods yet, knock on wood, but the mil-surp ammo guys are cryin' the blues. Glad I put several thousands of rounds (each) of USGI M80 Ball and M193 Ball in my stash last summer!
Congrats on the retirement. I once commented here that you'd know if it was the right thing to do when the time came.
Whether there's a true oil embargo or the prices just skyrocket into the stratosphere is a moot point. The Islamists and their sympathizers in the US will convince the fence-sitters in our population that the blame lies with the Administration, the Republican Party, and Israel. They will have them believe that if we would just turn our backs on Israel and pull out of Iraq and Afganistan everything will go back to "normal" and they won't bother us any more. It's worked before and will probably work again.
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 22:25:57 (ZULU)
Joe - you've been in the desert too long :-)
(But you spent your time well).
In a demonstration of the huge appeal that Hitchhiker's Guide has on the technology community, Babel Fish was the name used by one of the earliest translation sites on the World Wide Web.
There is an actual web translation service and associated human-based company that provides translation services.
They named it after Douglas Adam's Babelfish.
Really handy when you want a quick and dirty translation of a foreign-language web page or a block of text.
And of course, one good Douglas Adams reference deserves another:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Bistromathic Drive is a starship propulsion system in Douglas Adams's The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. It is introduced in Life, the Universe and Everything, the third book of the series.
Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.
The Bistromathic Drive is used in Slartibartfast's craft Starship Bistromath and works by exploiting the irrational mathematics that apply to numbers on a waiter's cheque pad and groups of people in restaurants. Life, the Universe and Everything describes bistromathics as follows:
"Bistromathics itself is simply a revolutionary new way of understanding the behaviour of numbers. Just as Albert Einstein's general relativity theory observed that space was not an absolute but depended on the observer's movement in space, and that time was not an absolute, but depended on the observer's movement in time, so it is now realized that numbers are not absolute, but depend on the observer's movement in restaurants." An important concept of bistromathics is recipriversexcluson: being anything other than itself.
Further explanation of the theory behind bistromathics:
"The first nonabsolute number is the number of people for whom the table is reserved. This will vary during the course of the first three telephone calls to the restaurant, and then bear no apparent relation to the number of people who actually turn up, or the number of people who subsequently join them after the show/match/party/gig, or to the number of people who leave when they see who else has shown up.
The second nonabsolute number is the given time of arrival, which is now known to be one of those most bizarre mathematical concepts, a recipriversexcluson, a number whose existence can only be defined as being anything other than itself. In other words, the given time of arrival is the one moment of time at which it is impossible that any member of the party will arrive. Recipriversexclusons now play a vital part in many branches of mathematics, including statistics and accountancy, and also form the basic equations used to engineer the SEP Field.
The third and most mysterious piece of nonabsoluteness of all lies in the relationship between the number of items on the bill, the cost of each item, the number of people at the table and what they are each prepared to pay for. (The number of people who have actually brought any money is only a sub-phenomenon in this field.)"
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 23:03:04 (ZULU)
It looks like you've got too much free time on your hands ;))
Friday, July 14, 2006, at 23:31:08 (ZULU)
agree with you on the mid east thing, could be the start of a big one.
have to strongly disagree with you on the klein reticle though.. just because leupold or the patent office may have missued it doesn't make it a bad reticle. so what exactly do you think is wrong with it?
It is exactly, i repeat exactly the same reticle as the Gen2 Mildot, exept the subtentions are thinner, making it better suited to shooting small groups at distance than the thicker Gen 2. The Mildot, The gen 2 mildot and the P4 are all too fat in my opinion, thats why i convinced S&B to go thinner and hence the P4 Fine.
I currently own 5 S&B PMII's all 5 of which are on loan to customers waiting for S&B delivery. ( 2 of which are in the sand box, and i hope they serve well whilst there and i hope even more that i get em back in one piece( the wholesaler i have to go through here made a major fuckup twice and this put me way down the order list, i'm now ordering direct and paying via the wholsaler)
2 of those have the klein reticle fitted. its a dot at the mil position, a line at the .5mil.. just like the Gen 2. but the thickness or subtention is only 3.2mm (or was it 3.5 like the P4Fine, which by the way is IMHO the best reticle available) thick at 100m.
Joe,, definately take a ruger over the blaser.
cheers dudes.// Pete
D - Friday, July 14, 2006, at 23:46:21 (ZULU)
I don't recall right now all the details of the Klein. I wrote the challange to the Patent Office years ago, and at the time, I had a Klein and a Gen-II in front of me.
The Klein is not the same as the Gen-II (and the US Patent Office now says so ;).
Thinner wires on a target scope are fine. But on a tactical scope, when shooting under the worst pressure (your target is shooting back at you), they are a hinderence.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, July 15, 2006, at 11:50:15 (ZULU)
The thing would be to test a few side by side.
You know i think the Ford motor company has something against me.. ( its probably all the nasty things i did years ago to theat Mk2 ford escort whilst hill climbing it) this blasted car tried to kill me again early this morning.. luckily i know know the signs or carbon monoxide poisoning.. If i had a suitable range and a .50cal i think i take it out there and shoot the sucker up..
as is it going back to the mechanics.
D - Saturday, July 15, 2006, at 18:20:25 (ZULU)
Joe M: Sir, I first want to say congrats on the retirement. Second of all I just want to say that I wish we had more officers like you in this here Army or should I say my Army as higher ups put it I guess I am the furture of the Army (Lord Help us all) but sir I appreciate everything you have done for me you have given me some great advice and tried to help me and my fellow COMMO guys out with stuff unfortunately I never got the "stuff" requested but its ok I am leaving this desert soon and will soon be back with my family. Again Sir thank you very everything your advice and information has helped out tremendously.
Sarge(DAD) Just want to tell you that since I know mom probaly doesn't really tell you to much that I will be heading home very very soon. Also dad I still can't tell you or even show you how much your advice and your praise of what I have done with my life and the support you have given not only to me but Jenna, Kiara and Austin means to me. If it was not for your advice and support I would not be the man I am today or even the soldier I am you have taught me a lot about how to be a soldier and even taught me how to be a NCO even though I haven't made it there YET I will soon and I will always remember what you have taught me. I know this sound all lovey dovey and crap but I know right now this is one of the only ways I have to communicate with you (kind of bad a COMMO guy can't find a better way to communicate) but dad I will leave the rest of the lovey doveyness for when I come home to Roswell in Aug.
Just a quick question for anyone to respond to what is the best type of Handgun to start out with. I am looking for something affordable, easy to conceal, and accurate. Well if anyone has any suggestions just please let me know.
Sarge Jr "Over and Out"
"To the Top"
"Climb to Glory"
Fort Dumb, NY, On the way back to the Good Ole USA - Saturday, July 15, 2006, at 21:00:40 (ZULU)
Sarge, Jr. Good luck in the sand box, WY6, and check in when you can. So, you're a communicator? What specialty? Part of my USMC time was spent as a Comm Officer...whole new generation of gear out now. Yet I still see guys humping PRC-77's...go figure.
As to a handgun recommendation. I make no apologies for being a disciple of John M. Browning. In the 1911's I'd go for a Springfield Mil-Spec and don't look back. I've owned several and they ran 100 percent, have decent sights, and the triggers are pretty good from the box. The Beretta M9 can be acceptable provided you replace all the springs with Wolff high grade stuff, use factory BERETTA or MEC-GAR magazines. I use Wolff extra power magazine springs. The major problem with the M9 has been magazines that were after market(I believe Triple K mfg.). They were crap during DS/DS and are still crap. So much for solving the issue, huh? Lastly, I'm NOT a proponent of the 9mm except as a SMG cartridge. Still, it can do the job, if you do yours.
Reticle Country: You guys know a bunch more than I do. I use'm like a point and click interface. Perhaps, I'm just not bright enough to understand the subtle nuances of their design. 'Lito, one of these days I'll have to read your brief to the patent office on the Generation II reticle.
Retro Country: I see that Remington is producing an original wood stock M40 Sniper rifle. Believe Davidson's is carrying them. Seems VERY spendy for wood stock rifle. You can get into a good FN or used Stealth cheaper...and probably get a much better rifle. Still, if you have to have one...
Component shortages: Haven't seen any yet in our neck of the woods. Keep enough for years of shooting, on hand. Do probably need to get a case of VARGET at some point. There are reports of some loaded ammo being hard to get. Specifically, .223, 7.62 X 39, and .308. There is some surplus of questionable quality out there. I have plenty left from the Y2K scare, so no problemo. Or is that problamo?
Joe, congrats on the retirement. Although the way things are going we'll all wind up back on active duty! Keep us up to date on the DPMS .260. I like my G.A.P. AR-10 even if it is in an outdated cartridge like the .308...;-)
Fuel Country: Cost me $43.00+ to fill my little S-10 truck today. The new fuel pumps should come with a built in defibrilator! The corn squeezins leave you in a quandry. Do you burn the stuff or drink it? This is a good reason for our US wells and production to be limited in the past. We have oil we can get to in CONUS and Alaska. Where is cost going? A 10-speed is getting better looking all the time!
Middle East: To many wild cards and what if's. Personally, I think it's allowing supporters of the terrorists and anti-zionists to say "not me". Iran and the bomb? Probably at some time. I worry more about some country losing/donating war-heads or fusionable material than I do about Tehran creating nukes. An acquaitance is the former head of Oregon State University's Nuclear Engineering program. Will have to ask him his take on the situation. He's also is a former A-4 pilot. So, he knows engineering AND delivery!
CDC: Like your recap about Moshe Dyan's "Always fight Arabs". Is it just me or do you see the Islamic countries military "incompetent arrogance/Allah is on our side" attitude? At least it's what I call it. The Arabs have some good people, from what I've seen, but they are few and far between. Leadership is...what we've come to expect based on Isreali experiences and our own.
Have to agree with most of you. This has the potential to get very ugly. Especially if someone uncaps a nuke.
As for our support of the Isreali's: We have long supported them and will continue to do so. Still, they have the unsettling habit of doing the unexpected. Which is why they should be valued. I love Ronald Reagan's response to Isreali bombing of the Iraqi reactor; "They did what?"
Finally, I was returned to duty, today, in a limited duty status. That means a lot of restrictions on what I can and can't do physically. The ankle joint is one massive cyst and scar tissue from previous injuries and the specialists are trying to reduce it with steroid shots(see it's not just for NFL players). If this doesn't work the other option is to fuse the bones. It is nice to be able to go to work and at least contribute now. More as the story unfolds.
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 04:08:16 (ZULU)
The barrel barely had a hint of blue/green from the first shot to the last (40 in all).
Once I stopped trying to move the zero to POA, the last 16 single shots (with cleaning to metal in between) all piled in to one inch sized ragged hole. With el crapo ammo (remmy 140 core lokt PSPs) and glass, this thing wants to shoot. Can't wait to add quality components to this stick...
JP trigger: Came with the full-power hammer spring still in the receiver, with the yellow coated light weight spring in a baggy. I read that if you use mil-spec/ surplus stuff in a 223, then you need to stay with the full power spring (I figure to crack those hard, thick MIL primers). Then, it says if you have a 308 size AR that you also must stay with the full house spring. Hmmm. .260 ain't a MIL cartridge; ergo, no hard assed primers to worry about, eh? So, I swapped to the lighter spring. So far, no ignition problemos. I did keep the heavier hammer though. For all that, the JP comes into its own with the lighter hammer springs. I went from five gritty pounds to three crisp ones. I like it--so long as it goes boom instead of click.
The design of this thing is pretty cool, too. The first third of the bolt carrier (a touch more) is dimensioned to the upper receiver, while the back two thirds is milled down to standard AR dimensions so as to slide into a AR15 buffer tube/ buffer/ spring assembly. The forward assist to also moved up to where it has purchase--it is cut into the brass deflector just aft of the ejection port. Both the detent springs for the safety and rear takedown pin now reside under the grip (suuurpriiiiise). That is due to the slightly longer buffer tube flange on the lower. Serious thought goes into using as many common parts from the 223 platforms as possible, and it seems to work. I would like to see better fit between the upper and lower, but this is of little consequence and can be easily chocked. Overall, I am very happy with this gun.
The factory specs call a 1:8 twist, while my barrel is stamped "1:7.5" --that is some fast turns. Just eyeballing it--the mag looked tight on the factory 140s though I was not paying strict attention. I sure hope I can load long heavies to take advantage of that twist...
Coulda bought 10 more of these, but for the tractor, haybine, rake, double disc and ford F140 4x4 (my oft-delayed conversion project for my old, pristine 2x4) that followed the wife home from an auction today. So much for the PMII idea...Nightforce has a 50mm OBJ scope that looks interesting, though. Or, I could get a Burris xtreme and test it out...
Need some ideas: Glass, in the loopy price range--or a test/ review request on one of the less pricey new models;
And some recommendations on a reloading set-up that will serve as the heart of a major system for a lifetime (buy the basics now, add the nice to haves later). Basically, which make/ model from dies to scales would I only need to buy once?
Sarge Jr: Kind words, thanks. I feel bad that those laptops never got to ya. Email me if you go thru Kuwait--I'll tell ya exactly where they are and how to get to them...
Since finally (and I mean FINALLY) deciding to retire: I cannot recall being happier...
Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 08:14:37 (ZULU)
It's nice to hear that your new .260 is serving you well. I use a JP with their light hammer and spring in one of my AR's and have never experienced any ignition problems no matter which primers I'm loading with but I've heard that there might be some ignition problems in extremely cold weather with this setup. No facts to back that up.
Reloading stuff? For resizing dies I'd recommend either the Forster full length sizer (great die, easy to use, and they'll custom hone for neck tension for ten bucks) or the Redding Type 'S' bushing style die - either in the full length variety or their neck die and seperate body die combination. For a bullet seating die you'll never go wrong with either the Forster micrometer die or its equivalent from Redding. I like the Forster better myself, 'lito recommended it to me and he was right. I've been using an RCBS 5-0-5 scale for over thirty years with never a problem. It's reliable, accurate, and reasonably priced. I use a Redding 3BR measure to throw charges and I think it's probably as good as most. You can get into big bucks here with small returns when you look at some of the 'exotics' that are on the market. I like to seat primers by hand and have been using one of those old RCBS squeeze tools, but I don't know if they're still on the market. The Forster case trimmer is the way to go in that department.
When it comes to scopes I'm in the same boat that you're in. That 50mm Nightforce NXS sounds good, and the new Burris Xtreme sounds interesting. There's also the 4-16x50 Nikon Tactical to consider. If you come up with something along these lines please post the details, and I'll do the same.
Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 13:16:19 (ZULU)
>"Is it just me or do you see the Islamic countries military 'incompetent arrogance/Allah is on our sid'" attitude? At least it's what I call it. The Arabs have some good people, from what I've seen, but they are few and far between.",
The people that are involved (on the other side) are mostly street thugs. There is no work in those countries, and the riff-raff that can't get work, and can't sell trinkets at the airport, join these groups, weither it's the army, or a militant group. The only thing that motivates them is the need for money, and hatred of the Jews.
That does NOT make for a well trained military man. It's like a bunch of high school kids with guns.
Remember the rout of the "Republican Guard" in '91??
"What's this shit, they're shooting at us and our tanks are blowing up. I didn't sign up for this. I signed up for the money, uniforms, and chicks - hey Ali-Grubi, where's that white tee shirt?"
The prisoner count was over 71,000??
In a war of "insurgent" fighting, they will win, cuz the good guys sit backs and hides from the rockets and roadside IEDs, and that's why this shit has been going on so long.
Civilization cannot win this kind of was with a "Tit-for-tat" action, cuz they make more babies than the good guys do.
The Israelies know how to do it... you friggin' bomb them into the stone age, and you keep hammering them until they are afraid to look out the windows.
Giving Gaza back just encouraged them to up the anti on terrorism... maybe they can get more the next time around.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 13:34:02 (ZULU)
Tell you what; Send me an addy and I'll send you a RCBS scale and powder measure that will work fine. Call it a retirement present. There's no generosity involved. They aren't in use and I'm keeping my Ohaus scale and Redding powder measure.
Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 13:56:45 (ZULU)
Joe. Hit me with an e-mail. I got loading shit and dies I haven't used in YEARS!
Lemme know what you need and I promise you a price you cannot turn down ;) It ain't freee ;) ... and you gotta pay shippin'
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 14:24:32 (ZULU)
I finely got your e-mail.
Guys... if you send me an e-mail through SC (or direct) and don't get an answer within a day or two, post somfin here and I'll get back to you.
I'm good about answering e-mails... but my ISP server has the "Guard of death" firewall, and would probably block an e-mail from Jesus, if the ISP protocols weren't perfect.
Marius... when are we getting that spell checker you promised back in '98?
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 15:47:32 (ZULU)
Digital scales have their place, but most are *not* designed to be used for trickling powder charges.
Great for weighing brass for sorting, or measuring/verifying a full powder charge from a volumetric measure.
Several of them suck on the battery when "off",so removing the battery when extended idle period planned is recommended.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 18:33:04 (ZULU)
The Forster dies are the best out there for the money and there ain't much better out there for more money. I like the Redding beam scale, BR3 powder measure, and tumbler. Forster has a great press as does RCBS, Redding, and Lee. Go Dillon if you want a progressive (that's what I'm saving my pennies for). Forster also has a good trimmer.
The .260 has only one maker of commercial brass, Remington. I have found it to be better than what most folks say about it. It's not Lapua quality but it's a hell of a lot cheaper and will go for several loading for it has issues. The primer pockets have been good and weight is pretty consistent. For a gas gun, I would avoid using the necked up or necked down Lapua or Winchester brass. The gas guns seem to be bad about chewing on the brass. Remington is cheap enough to toss if they get too mangled.
The heavier bullets (139 to 142 grain) work well but are quite long. They tend to use up a lot of case space when seated deep enough to feed from a magazine. 123gr Lapua would be a good choice for a shorter bullet.
If you have never owned a handgun before, I recommend getting a quality .22lr, either a revolver or semi-auto. They are most affordable and will allow for lots of practice. Some are even tack-drivers with good ammo.
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 20:15:12 (ZULU)
Sounds like you're doing well at home- Only 8 more years and I'll be able to talk about retirement!
Can you drop me a line- I have a question about some stuff that was in the conex at AJ...
A warm and Sandy Place, - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 20:28:36 (ZULU)
Since you're shooting .260 out of a semi, lot to be said for a progressive press for actual production.
I like to prep bottleneck brass single stage, but you can get good results once it is in "ready-to-load" condition on a progressive.
Here's part of what Stuart A. Leach a.k.a. "the Colorado Gray Fox"
has to say on the topic:
Addendum: Progressive or Multi-Stage Reloading Match Ammunition
Progressive or multi-stage reloading machines are increasingly used by NRA Highpower Rifle competitors for preparing match ammunition, especially if shooting the 223/5.56 round. One many time national champion loads his 200 and 300 yard ammo on a progressive, the United States Army Marksmanship Unit did the same until they switched to commercial ammo for the short ranges, and ammo for the International Palma Championships was done on progressives. John Feamster, a careful analyst, got smaller 60 shot groups with his progressively loaded short range ammo than with his single stage loads. Most still load their long range ammo in the single stage manner, though some do long range loads on the machine, but substitute weighed charges for machine thrown. Those who load progressively overwhelmingly prefer the Dillon machines, particularly the 550B model, over those from Lee, RCBS and Hornaday. Some modifications are made to the Dillon machines, including taper reaming and polishing the funnel area of the powder metering system smooth, making the powder meter fingertip adjustable, and surface grinding the bottom of the shell plate to reduce slop. Get to really know your machine before making any modifications.
Actually, the method used should be called "semi-progressive" or "interrupted progressive" loading, for the process starts on the machine, side steps for case preparation, then returns to the machine for a fast finish. Brass cleaned in the polisher to remove range dirt is sized and deprimed on the machine, then goes off line for lube removal, trimming/chamfering/deburring, and primer pocket cleaning. Some remove each case by hand, others allow the cases to go around the cycle with the priming and powder metering functions disabled. The cases return to the machine for primer seating, powder charging and bullet seating. Reports are that best results come from progressing at medium speed; a slam bang crank 'em out as fast as possible approach reduces consistency. The best set up I have seen features the Redding bushing-type full length sizing die, and Redding Competition Seating Die.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 21:35:10 (ZULU)
Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 21:48:15 (ZULU)
True enough on the learning curve, but you can also use a single station on a progressive press.
Also, I did advocate prepping bottleneck brass on a single stage,
so that could be the first purchase too.
Primarily wanted to point out that high accuracy rifle ammo can be produced on a progressive press. Not everyone subscribes to that possibility.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 00:21:21 (ZULU)
Thanks for the info dump:)) I am making a list and checking it twice...
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 02:38:25 (ZULU)
Give this a spin...I seem to have this one caliber down pat after three years of dinking with it...
-But any old press, RCBS rockchucker is a solid, basic one..
-Buy yourself 500 or more remington .260 brass
-Buy any old balanace beam scale... the $20 RCBS ones work ok
-Buy an el cheapo Lee perfect powder measure ($30)..only one I use
-Buy an el cheapo Lee hand primer (lee autoprimer- $17)..only one I use
-Buy a forester micrometer seater die (only one you need at first)...seat em' to fit in a mag with 'dirt clearance'
-Buy one box of laupa scenar 123s for the long range stuff and a box of either Hornady 95 gr vmax or sierra 100 gr HPBT for under 400 yards... the laupas shoot pretty good with 42.6 grs of H4350 (tight enought to score 2nd on grouping at ASC), and the vmax workie great with Varget...the lighter bullets are scary, scary accurate and you wont believe the effect of the vmax on small game.
You can 'once fire' all the brass you buy with just this stuff....and that will take you a while and let you know if you like reloading....all the resizing and other voodoo comes later.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 02:48:17 (ZULU)
The fun part of reloading doesn't involve massaging the brass. The fun part is assembling the components into finished ammunition. His suggestion lets you get your feet wet without a major equipment investment, and avoids the fussier work of adjusting resizing dies and the like.
You may want to further simplify and just pick a single projectile and powder to start with, which means your initial investment is even smaller. It also means you only have to work up/confirm a single loading.
If you're looking for results rather than another hobby, you could simply sell the once-fired brass to another reloader and just buy more new. That is what some of the upper-echelon High Power competitors do, which trades time against money.
Cleaning, depriming, resizing, trimming and chamfering brass eats up a lot of time.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 07:23:51 (ZULU)
I'm not trying to be contentious, but it doesn't seem that bad. To clean you toss into the tumbler then use a Dillon squirrel cage to seperate brass from media. Depriming and resizing is usually one operation. If you use a progressive, you can prime at the same time and expand at the next station and blast through a bucket of brass quick-quick. Depending on your cartucho, brass doesn't need to be trimmed and chamfered that often.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 14:29:55 (ZULU)
As for the "other calibers" I shoot, I have a sizable personal stock and reliable re-supply of fodder that serves my purposes for now; plus a friend who loads 308 and (he is only now finding out) will serve as a mentor while I get into this.
As for the "expansion" of the operation: I am in a temporary stand-by to buy up some surplus equipment/ tooling...I'll gather all that is offered, though I will focus solely on the 260 for some time while I learn the ins and outs (necessity being what it is). As I get smarter, I'll roll .45 and .223 for volume, then as i get the hang---I'll try to best the FGM 308 that my SPR loves. Along the way, I'll play with hunting loads for the 270WCF and 300WMs. So, whatever I need after the used deal--I'll order/ purchase at my high-volume shop.
If anyone else has some surplus reloading gear--I'll buy it. The betterer tooling is like weight sets at the gym---it doesn't suffer from use too much.
I have boxes and boxes of unsorted brass. A barrel of 223 (and access to tons more), in fact. And an old store display case of tiered plexiglass bins to sort in to. I'm also framing in my basement work shop/ gun room. This process has been pure fun so far (nothing like working for yourself after decades of consciously attempting to restrain self interests).
I have always said that once I can make some time in life, I'd jump into reloading. As it turns out, discretionary funds and time seemed to have coincided happily. God looks after fools and soldiers...and I have been both often enough. Whoooo-Hooooo!
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 15:01:14 (ZULU)
Does anyone have a source for .260 brass? I have heard that the caliber may not survive (falling inbetween .243 and 7mm-08) and would like to get another 100 - 200 pieces... Midway would not allow back-orders, then did, then cancelled...
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 16:05:53 (ZULU)
Litto sent you thre emails over last year through SC and no answer. This explains it. Send me your email address please to TACTICALSLINGS AT AOL
On 260, been shooting this a few months and I think its the best small arms caliber I have used. No recoil and flys like 338 Laupua. Before anyone asks I use 4350 powder, Remington Factory Brass, 139 Lapua bullets (.610 BC) and throw it down 24" GA Built Rifle at 2800fps. Shoots little tiny groups.
They are loaded on 25 years old RCBS Rock Chucker, Lee Hand prmers and all powder put on scale.
CA, - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 16:11:46 (ZULU)
A loose aquaintance and self-proclaimed gun\handloading guru I know has suggested to me that I seat my bullets a tad long,so much so that the length of the complete round is about .0003 over.In his words,the desired effect is to force the bullet to seat into lands and grooves,thus doing away with any "jump"that may occur upon fireing.According to him,the noticable effect should be that the final seating of the bullet will occur upon bolting the round,thus causing a noticable resistance against the bolt handle.
This practice sounds both somewhat logical and yet totally insane to me,and I just dont know what to think about this one.Obviously,it would be a very good idea to work this practice up from a very reduced load,very slowly,keeping a close eye on pressure.It seems to me that an over pressured round could occur easily doing this.
The thing is,I really like my rifle,and I paid alot of money to have it built just how I want it.I also really like my face,my hands,that sort of thing.I need more guideance on this one.Does anyone out there know of or practice this technique?And if so,are the results produced worth their weight against the risk and the time?If there is anyone out there who can give me more details,I would really apprieciate it.Also,pardon my spellin'.I promise I shoot better.
Fort Worth, Texas, USA - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 16:13:12 (ZULU)
It's been my experience that some bullets shoot better when jammed into the lands, others shoot worse, and some don't much care one way or the other within reason.
For example, my limited experiments with true VLD bullets have indicated that they like to be seated a few thou into the lands, or at least touching the lands, while SMK's are accurate off the lands or touching. Only a bunch of experimenting in small increments of seating depth will tell you for sure which bullet/load combinations like to be seated at a particular depth. And this is getting dangerously close to the anal-retentive benchresters domain ;)
In many cases a load that is just on the ragged edge of being overpressure will show definite overpressure signs if the bullet is seated into the lands with no other changes in the load.
For example, I've been working on a fast twist heavy bullet .243 load that has shown excellent accuracy and muzzle velocity with no pressure warning signs other than a slight primer cratering. The edges of the primer itself are still radiused (not squared off) after firing, the primer pockets are not expanded, the case head dimensions remain the same, there is no telltale ejector "circle" on the base, and extraction and bolt lift are very smooth and easy. This is with the bullet seated .015" off the lands. Seating the bullet out to touch the lands resulted in very obvious ejector rings on the case head (base) and a flyer or two in every five-shot group. Certain indications of an overpressure load!
So my advice is that if you are not seeing any overpressure indications with the load that you're presently using but want to try seating the bullet into the lands you should probably drop your charge weight by between one-half to one grain and test from there.
These are strictly my observations and should be taken with a consideration of how much they cost you ;))
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 16:49:07 (ZULU)
You might try Black Hills Shooters Supply. They are a wholesale outfit so you would have to go thru a dealer. Their website is:
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 16:53:53 (ZULU)
Everybody needs to have a single station press. I like the RCBS Rockchucker and keep two set up on the workbench. That way, I can size on one and seat on the other.
I prefer the RCBS powder measure over the Lee version, but virtually any will work. A micrometer adjustable drop volume is a worthwhile upgrade. There is no real substitute for a RCBS 5-0-5 scale.
Personally, I would stay away from the Lee autoprime and especially from the Pro-1000 press. They can be made to work, and the price is right, but..... Much of Lee reloading equipment is designed to use the friction and tolerances of the moving parts for locating and timing operations. This causes the fit and finish to be critical. As a result, the machine can be somewhat finicky.
For example, the primer feed chute on the Autoprime system is a C shape made out of two pieces of plastic clipped together. Since the final section is almost horizontal, it requires a slight jiggle to feed the primers, especially when the primers are low. It is possible not feed when the primers are still halfway up the chute. In addition, a paperclip is required to hold the primers back when putting the magazine in or they will jam up in the socket.
The final big issue I have with Lee is that the Pro 1000 in .223 requires a double disk kit for the powder measure. It isn't included, nor is there any mention of the requirement on their website or directions. Without it, the maximum amount of powder is about 15 grains.
No preferences for dies.
For a progressive press, the Dillon 550 is extremely good. Positive detents and stops on everything, the machining and casting quality is excellent, and it just works. Three quibbles - add a micrometer to the powder measure, allow the powder measure to be in either position 2 or position 3, and make the parts diagram in the manual clearer to make it easier to assemble a partially disassembled press.
MEC Sizemaster for shotgun shells, of course.
Edited to add - I have a Lee Pro 1000 in 223 that is presently surplus to my needs. I'm willing to trade it for 223 brass, if you're interested. Someone else can figger out how to make it run.
Damn Hot, Tx, USA - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 17:24:06 (ZULU)
do you consider neck tension when loading into the lands?
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 17:55:06 (ZULU)
They had a motion to forbid me from seeing or even talking to Ruggus Rattus, EVER!!
I shot that one down... "Denied"
And they had another motion to confirm the appointment of R-R's lawyer and Guardian ad Litem from last time. Those of you that know this case, know that those two are to root cause of the current mess - they were appointed by the other side (they are supposed to be neutral)... and they paid back the (very lucrative $25k each) appointment by delivering a kidlet :(((
And I had a motion to prohibit either of the two from being in contact with the RugRat.
The Judge said as a "Pro Se" party, I did could not remove a child's standing lawer or GaL.
Last year, I had asked a few people how long these assholes are appointed to my son, and heard in a casual conversation, that these guys "might" fall off after six months.
I pointed out... "Your honor, I believe that the attorney for the child and the GaL are automatically dismissed from their rolls after 180 days from the trial.
Your Honor, has been a year. We are not talking about continuing their appointment, we are talking about a new appointment, and for reasons spelled out in my motion, I am opposed to their new appointment.
"Da' Judge" is impressed wit da' 'lito ;)))
He goes on for about 15 minutes about this being new and not even up on the CT practice book website (the book of all CT laws)... and then goes on about prior precedence and crap, and I'm sweating bullets (45-120s), and then he does this dramatic pause, and shoots them down "Denied" and grants my motion.
So far, on the new go-around...
Ruggus Rattus - 4
Opposition - 0
We're doing good, and I'm not dead, so I must be getting stronger ;)))
One of the things I have discovered is that the judge will not help you... even if you are a Pro Se... if the other side tries to pull a fast one, unless it's a matter forms and documents, the judge will not say, "Now councelor, you know that the lawer and GaL fall off in 180 days"...
He will simply ask you "Mr. 'lito, what is your position"... and if you miss it, they win.
This one suckie business.
I'm not exaggerating when I say I don't sleep most nights.
People ask me why don't you do other stuff while this is going on. HA!... you got to read this shit until your eyes cross, then read it some more, looking up every other word :(((
She has three lawyers, Jase' has me. He's getting the best I have to give!
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 18:17:21 (ZULU)
"Here is a powerful and amazing statement on Al Jazeera television.
The woman is Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles.
This is a very interesting interview. It's in Arabic with excellent
I would suggest watching it ASAP because I don't know how long the link will be active."
OK, - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 18:43:27 (ZULU)
In this particular instance I've been controlling neck tension on the DTAC-Re25-Lapua-210M load by using a Redding Type 'S' neck bushing die with a .271" TiN bushing that gives an .002" "crush". On the 107SMK loads using Winchester brass I've been using a Forster full length Benchrest sizing die with the neck custom honed by Forster to .268" which again gives a .002" fit. Working strictly through a bolt gun this seems right and has a good feel when seating the boolets. I'm fortunate that even when seated out to touch the lands the COAL (2.815" for the DTAC, 2.840" for the SMK)is short enough to feed with ease from the magazine of the unmodified Savage short action.
You think I should experiment with different neck tensions? I don't know enough about doing that, but if you have some suggestions I'm all ears :)
It's great to hear that you're scoring some points. Stay on top of the game. My thoughts and prayers are with ya! Every time that I've had to deal with the legal system I've been floored by the inequity of it. It's a poorly kept secret that the lawyers and judges desperately try to keep a lid on. Hang in there.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 19:33:49 (ZULU)
Don't go to the sight and attempt to open it. I went there and it automatically attempted to download something to my computer.
While it might be legit, it smells of virus.
Be your own judge.
PC, OK, USA - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 20:19:36 (ZULU)
I see guys are talking about the 260 again. I went to a family reunion down in Neb. and got to shoot on a range with plates out to 1300yds.
I had shot on it a few years ago when I had my 6.5x284 and was able to ring the 1300yd plate 3 out of 5 times with it. So I took both my 6XC and 260 this year. Since the 6XC is suppose to be my replacement for the 6.5x284 I was anxious to give it a try at the long ranges.
I was disappointed in the performace of the XC at the 1300yd plate. It did well at 1000yds hitting the 18" plate without much problem. However on the 1300yd plate (24")I noticed that it would be over, under left or right, no real consistancy. I only made two hits on it out of 10 shots.
My big surprise was the the 260 with the 123s. My first shot was high right and I took wind out and brought it down 1.5 moa and made a 2nd and 3rd round hit with it. I hit it a total of 5 out of 9 times. When I did miss it was either left or right. It shot much tighter at that range than the XC did. Both guns print nearly identical groups out to 800yds on paper. If memory serves me correctly I think it took 39 MOA to be on at 1300yds @ 2400ft elevation.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 20:57:42 (ZULU)
I went to the site, and it's good to go. Very interesting comments. Your computer might not have had the proper "plug-in" to see the movie, and tried to down load it.
I finely got to the post office, and the doogie tube is on the way by priority mail. 2 to 3 days.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 21:13:47 (ZULU)
Marnus and I went hunting the weekend, and he got it! His first kill! Not much by way of a trophy - young impala ram - but a lot by way of pride! Both father and son!
http://www.snipercountry.com/marius/Marnus - first shot.jpg
And here to see what a 180gr Rhino does at about 40 meters. You can clearly see the bullet path along the rib cage. The ram was angled away and he went in behind the shoulder and out the neck - perfectly placed shot! It was a tad high, but with that shattered spine it dropped like a rock!
http://www.snipercountry.com/marius/Marnus - result.jpg
One proud son, and one helluva proud dad!!
He shot it standing over sticks, about 40 meters, full-power 180gr 30-06 load at about 2700 fps. Afterwards I asked him whether he felt the shot and he said no. I asked him whether he realised that he had shot MY loads instead of HIS - 150gr Hornady pushing about 1820fps, which I load for him to practise off the bench. He didn't know, and still hadn't felt it, and still didn't have a sore shoulder.
Where's the Ellisras details!! I need to start saving for a better ram for him. :-)
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 21:43:13 (ZULU)
Congratulations to both of you. That's an accomplishment.
Was camping and shooting this weekend, and it was hot as heck. Came across my first bear (actually, he came across me) at 12:17am Thursday. He scampered away, made some aggressive sounds, then quieted down after a warning shot from my 45. Dude came back ~40 minutes later, at which point I was in the truck. Turned on the lights, he checked me out for awhile, then wandered off. Interesting experience. He was good sized black bear, didn't look like he'd missed too many meals. And he was not the least bit shy.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 22:00:56 (ZULU)
B'ville, OK, - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 22:18:07 (ZULU)
We had a bear attack a camper here on the Western slope just a couple of days ago! A gal was asleep in her tent at a campsite in the middle of the night when she suddenly awoke to find a black bear in her tent staring at her. She started yelling at him loudly as she was taught to do under these circumstances, but instead of running away like he was supposed to do he just started rummaging around her tent (there was no food inside) until he got good and ready to leave but not before he took a hard swipe at the gal, laying her thigh open to the tune of twelve stitches.
The Forest Service went out searching for the bear, employing a pack of hounds. I don't know if they found him yet but the plan is to euthanize him immediately 'cause they don't want a bear that's obviously not afraid of humans hanging around campsites like this one is doing.
Campers had probably been feeding him, so he associated people with food - obviously not a good thing.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 22:19:55 (ZULU)
Yeah, this guy got away with my bagels, nothing else. Guys who came up Thursday had never seen a bear in that area in at least 15 years. I'm guessing some of the tree hugging, squirrel-kissing, duck-squeezing fruit-loops had been feeding him. Just 'cause he's sooooo cute. A bear in the woods is like a shark in the ocean.
Glad I developed the habit of camping with the 45, always within reach.
Monday, July 17, 2006, at 22:56:05 (ZULU)
.260 Rem Brass... everybody here is using .243 lapua brass and necking it up.
Bears.. did you guys hear about the European Brown Bear that wandered his way into Bavaria the other week?
D - Monday, July 17, 2006, at 23:11:04 (ZULU)
IL, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 01:00:03 (ZULU)
If I had stayed he may have got them, but he damned sure would have paid more than $45.
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 01:52:29 (ZULU)
Hot damn! Let the trained sharks have it!
As far as the "mother"", she obviously HATES her son as she is placing her war with you ahead of him.
Myrtle Beach, Overwhelmed!, - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 02:28:35 (ZULU)
I really like the $30 powder measure and the $20 HAND primer... I've also worked with the Lee progressive press and mechanical priming device that goes with it... I didn't like them at all.
Pat - You hit at 1300 yards with a 123 scenar from a 260, I'm impressed. I wouldn't expect the 260 to be up to it.
Pete in Krautland - I can get the Rem 260 brass cheaper and bypass the sizing step (I just deburr and sort cases if time permits)... no difference in practical accuracy and case life seems about the same. Believe it or not.
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 02:49:37 (ZULU)
I have been buying it from Graf's. I believe the .260 isn't going to be popular in the near future so I picked up 200 pieces in the winter. After culling and adding to the existing .260AI cases, I have about 320 good pieces.
I have done the necking up and necking down stuff and can't say that I have found it to worth the time, money, and effort.
The Lee hand primer is simple and works well. Good enough for me.
Lee, RCBS and Forster have good quality and affordable single presses.
My .260AI is using Remington brass, 139gr Lapuas, 42gr H4350, and CCI BR2 primers. Sweet spot is at 2860fps. Uses 11.5moa @ 600yds and 28moa @1k.
Congrats to Marnus! That's a great shot and you have a right to be proud.
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 03:52:46 (ZULU)
If "Search" worked I'd check the archives.
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 04:47:18 (ZULU)
IL, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 05:04:00 (ZULU)
I have a Diavari C, owned it since 1989. Never had a bit of trouble with it. What's wrong with yours? I can't find the literature it came with at this moment but IIRC it has a lifetime warranty.
I'm interested in Nikon also. Got my eye on their 4-16x Tactical.
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 05:35:16 (ZULU)
>"How does the Nikon Monarch series stack up?"<
Make you go blind (but not as much fun as that high school thing ;).
I have a Nikon Monarch 6.5x20, and both machanically and optically, it puts my Leupold 6x20 EFR to shame. It came with two sets of turrets - conical and cylindrical... nice scope.
I have my eye on two more Nikons now... the 6x18-40mm Buckmaster w/side focus (actually calibrated in yds), and a 5.5x16.5 Monarch.
You will not be disapointed in a Nikon scope.
Slept great last night for the first time in weeks...
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 12:48:58 (ZULU)
... and you other guys.
Condor (Like the big birdie in the Andes mountains.
Mags (like when you have more than one 45 Colt auto magazine in your pocket.
net (like what you catch fish in, when you are not using dynamite ;)))
Put something sniper related in the subject line if I won't recognize your "from" e-mail address, cuz I delete about 80% of my incoming without opening them.
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 13:16:28 (ZULU)
Different strokes fer different folks, but I find BSA scopes very good for .22s. Ain't no flys on Nikons, either!
Good on ya !!
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 13:18:31 (ZULU)
The Chinee' connection!
Some of you guys are old enough to remember when RCBS was owned by Fred Huntington, who is the founder, and started the company in the back room of his dad's laundry business.
In those days, all of RCBS stuff was made in the RCBS factory, and everyone got "fat". Fred was hugely successful, and had a very large collection of rare cars (one of his passions). The was the classical American dream. The guys that worked there were all shooters, and their input made the company a great place to work.
Here's an interesting page on the man...
But then Blout came on the scene, and bought RCBS, and Fred went off and started a new company. Huntington Die Specialties.
Within weeks, the bean counters at Blout started cutting everywhere they could.
You ol' shooters/loaders know that the RCBS quality has been going down for many years.
A few months ago, I tossed a bunch of RCBS case trimmers in the dumpster, cuz they were shitty
Then I tossed a bunch of the APS priming shit in the dumpster.
Well... eventually, most RCBS equipment was sent out to job shops, so Blout didn't have to pay the salaries plus benies like retirement, workmans comp, holidays, Christmas gifts... they just got their stuff from a bunch of shops that had to compete with each other on price.
Well... the final low blow to the ol' man Fred is... now RCBS is getting presses and stuff made in China... and China is backing Iran/Iraq/Syria in this global mess.
Blout says they have to do it to remain competetive... Bullshit. Forster and Redding are 100% American made, they are the best equipment available, and they are selling like chickens in Somalia.
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 15:23:49 (ZULU)
Great news! Hang in there and keep pluggin'. We're all rootin for ya. Sad to hear that about RCBS. Their stuff I bought years back is indeed great and still works just fine.
Congratulations to Marnus. He is sure a proud and handsome boy.
I agree on the BSA's for .22's. I've even hung several of them on .223's and they worked just fine. One of the lurkers I know had one on a .308 and it actually broke in half!!? :( Sent one back for a customer who had obviously abused it and a week later here came a brand new replacement.
I bought one of the cheaper Nikons a few months back and it is one clear scope. Haven't mounted it yet so don't know how it will perform.
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 15:47:11 (ZULU)
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 16:38:51 (ZULU)
Are you out there? Are you OK??? I'm watchin the news and I think I remember you were in Haifa, correct??? Take care, we're pullin for ya!
PS, Lito. good on ya!
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 18:11:25 (ZULU)
That's really a shame about Blount. RCBS isn't the first brand name that they've fucked up. I have fond memories of going to the local fun store over four decades ago and buying my first reloading components. RCBS was probably the most popular and had a great reputation. I got a lot of miles out of that old RCBS beginners kit.
I haven't bought RCBS stuff in years, since I noticed the quality going to hell since Blount.
I wonder how many shooters have noticed the proliferation of Chinese knock-offs of American brands (like Harris bipods) that are on the shelves lately?
How do you say RCBS in Chinese, or Rock Chuck Bullet Swage?
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 18:21:52 (ZULU)
OK so the bottom line is this is a DEFINATE keeper! 13+1 .45 ACP in a weapon that doesn't feel any bigger than a hi-cap 9mm!
Now all I need to do is get some decent holsters and I'm good!
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 19:18:19 (ZULU)
I think Bravo did a test on an XD of some flavor. Might check the archives over the last 3-4 weeks.
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 20:19:18 (ZULU)
Good news for the 6.5mm shooters. Sierra has just announced a 123gr. 6.5mm MatchKing boolet designed to compete directly with the Lapua 123 Scenar. Sierra anticipates the demand for their new 123SMK will be triggered by the arrival of the 6.5x47 Lapua brass in quantities.
A worthwhile difference for American shooters is that these new SMK's measure a half-thou (that's .0005") larger in their major diameter than the Scenars so that they might fit the traditionally larger American made barrels a little better. This might result in a leetle bit better accuracy.
Stock # is 1727 in 100ct. boxes.
I believe that Pat and JR have expressed interest in the 6.5x47!
Anyone else getting interested in the new Lapua cartridge yet?
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 21:06:37 (ZULU)
WTF over..worthwhile? confused...yeah, lets drive them pressures up in the match barrels which most people who are going to use for anyway..That better mean the bullets are going to measure .264, just just like the scenars..confused...So what have we been making barrels for in the past?
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 22:36:48 (ZULU)
According to Sierra the 123SMK "will have a shank diameter in the .2642 - .2644 range". That's supposed to be a half-thou fatter than the Scenar.
The 6mmbr.com site reports the same diameter differences exist between the 6mm Scenar 105 when compared to the Berger 105's, A-Max 105's and the 107SMK's! They claim that for this reason "the Scenars seem to work best in barrels with a fairly tight bore diameter".
I don't have any Scenar boolets here to measure, but you're the barrelmaker so perhaps you can measure some and report your findings on the DR.
Whatever the result, don't shoot the messenger ;)
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 23:16:43 (ZULU)
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 23:17:25 (ZULU)
That brings up an interesting question. What tools do you use to measure the bore diameters? I'm assuming your measuring to +/-0.0001. My dad worked for a gage company that started out with air-gages for rifle barrels, but I never learned how they calibrated that stuff. For bullets, do you use an optical comparator of some sort?
Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 23:36:11 (ZULU)
analog split ball probe gages for me, using a DTI in increments of .0001..air gages do nothing for accurate readings, they measure one section of bore along the length...I need to have the ability to read the actual deviation along the diameter, not just one diameter..the gages, both air gage and analog, are calibrated with ring gage standards, and both gages are calibrate-able..There are also 2 and 3 point micrometer type bore gages available. or clamshell type you measure with a mike..
What do I measure the shank diameter of bullets with? A micrometer!! for shape I would use a comparator..
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, July 18, 2006, at 23:47:35 (ZULU)
A few years ago I went thru a five pak of decapping pins on some mil surplus .50 IMI brass. I ended up cutting off a piece of an allen wrench after I bent(!) the last rcbs pin and still using it today.
I kinda feel left out with all this talk of .260 ish new rifles and boolits. I had an old Rem 600 in .243 that Terry rebuilt for me a year or so ago but that was before George started his 8.5" twist experiments. Now I'm wondering if I'll even be competitive with a .308 if and when I get time to shoot another match. Not that I was that competitive before but I didn't finish last. :)) I'm thinking I should send it back to Terry and have an 8.5" fitted up. The 20" barrel I have is a 1 in 10 twist and when I tried the 107 smk's the results weren't worth repeating here. They didn't keyhole at a hundred but that's the best I can say. Terry built it to augment my airport coyote rifle selection and hand down to my son. (I've had the rifle since the early seventies.) It was my first high powered rifle and would put 3 rounds (all touching) in a beer bottle top at 200 yds. It was definitely what got me hooked on long distance accuracy or at least the pursuit of same. I saved the original stock but it's bedded in an A-3 now. I guess if having another barrel installed is the cost of admission, I'll pay up. Should I look at somethin longer than 20"???? What's the .243 crowd say??
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 01:15:48 (ZULU)
I've been playing with a .243 this summer. I put on a 28" Pac-Nor 5 groove 1/7 twist barrel and have been having what I consider excellent results so far using Tubb's 115gr. DTAC boolets with a pretty stout load of Re25. None of this is anything new, as I've taken the cue from George Gardner on this. One theory is to run slow powders at not too much over 3000MV for decent barrel life. I'll find out!
I haven't come up with a 107SMK load that suits me yet. I've been experimenting with H1000, but I think my loads are possibly too hot resulting in some tight three and four shot clusters but always with a flyer or two. I plan to drop the weight of the H1000 loads and also try some with Re25. I was going to start this week, but a 6AM emergency phone call telling me that one of our irrigation pumps went TU screwed up my day long enough for the temperature to climb to 104F and that's too damned hot to be foolin' around out there at the range. Maybe later in the week.
I've already found that the 105 A-Max won't handle the spin imparted by a 1/7 twist at a bit over 3000MV. Two out of three boolits never make it to the 100yd. target. I should have taken Hornady's 1/9 recommendation on the box seriously.
So far, I've shot the DTAC's out to 600yds. and I've got some time set aside in late August to take it out past 1000. The boolits are grouping well at 600, and tracking very close to what EXBAL predicted, so I'm happy. I'll have to wait to see what happens at 1000, but I believe it might better or at least equal the .300WM/190SMK @ 2966MV and the 6.5-284/142SMK @ 2950 with less powder burned and a lot less recoil.
I'll continue to post as time and results permit.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 02:06:29 (ZULU)
260 country - I still say the company that manufactures a really good ~130 grain pill will have found the optimal weight for the short action 6.5s .... I like the 123 scenar but it is a wee bit too light, just as the 139 / 142s are a wee bit too heavy. I know Norma made a 130 grainer but I cannot seem to lay hands on the damn things. I also went looking for 500 rem .260 cases and cannot find anyone with them in stock... if someone finds em' for a fair price, please drop me an email.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 02:34:13 (ZULU)
You're absolutely right - there's always an element of hype in ANY "new crap". That's called salesmanship in a free market economy. If there isn't already an existing need for something an enterprising individual (or company) will try to invent one. And it really does boil down to the shooter, no argument here!
Speaking of hype - how about those WSM's ;)
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 04:34:55 (ZULU)
After I sighted it in, it threw boolets all over the place. I just checked and found that it had 2 (count 'em) clicks left in the horizontal adjustment.
No bueno, so I'm putting a Nikon where the Weaver is and returning the Weaver to the .22.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 04:55:15 (ZULU)
What I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that George is using Moly coated 115 DTAC bullets too. You guys might need to take that into consideration. I have no experience with Moly at all.
Edited cause I can't spell. :(
Alvin, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 05:31:25 (ZULU)
I don't work for ConocoPhilips. I am local LE.
PC, OK, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 10:09:04 (ZULU)
Try Burris "Signature Zee" bases. No shim needed, you can tilt them +/- 40 moa by using the little insert rings, and they NEVER mark the scope.
Fit any cross slot (Weaver or Picatinny)
Spring has sprung, a' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 12:50:13 (ZULU)
My kids weren't hurt and property was barely touched. The formerly spectacular view (that added $20,000+ to the value) looks like a big unemptied ashtray.
Kids were in direct violation of this area's "no fireworks" law and were caught.
If I was their dad...
Pablo: Thanks and thanks for the link to the discount Nikon scopes.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 13:03:15 (ZULU)
Alan wrote: "Speaking of hype - how about those WSM's ;)"
Err, We've got Tubbs and George Gardner pushing the .243 / DTAC combo ... who is behind the 7WSM that has any pull?
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 14:24:26 (ZULU)
I was kinda surprised when you mentioned that your Diavari C went TU 'cause they very rarely do. At least now you know that it's something rather easily corrected instead. 'lito's suggestion to use the Signature rings is spot-on. Remember that it's always best to have the scope stay as close to mechanical center as possible even if you have enough clicks internally.
Too bad about that fire! We run the same risk where I live and I've seen it get quite scary three times in the twenty two years that I've been on this property. Once it was a fool burning weeds in an irrigation ditch without any means of controlling the fire. That one took out 800 acres, and I understand that he just finished paying for it after twenty years. A second fire was caused by a local kid playing with fireworks even though there was a county-wide ban in effect. No parental supervision ....both were alcoholics :(( and last summer the night sky turned orange when a huge grass fire went wild on BLM land close to the house. The street in front of my house was filled with local, county, BLM, and Forest Service firefighters for hours but no injuries or damage to any private property, thank goodness! Oh, and I almost forgot a former neighbor who set fire to his property while clearing a space to excavate a foundation for his new house without nary a water hose in sight. The fire almost came up to my property line, but we got it extinguished quickly. He suffered the loss of all the underbrush on his land, pluss about a half-dozen bull snakes unfortunate enough to be trapped in the blaze. Damn good rodent controllers, those! The neighbor didn't last very long around here ;) So I guess that's four fire scares!
George is shooting moly-coated DTAC's, but I'm shooting naked ones. Tubb sells them either way for the same price. I load mine a grain and a half lighter than George does as per recommendations. I didn't opt for moly due to the attendant complications, but might if I was competing like George is.
This scope choice dilemma still has me up in the air. There's no way that I can afford an S&B, although getting one has become a long term goal. I'd hate to have to bite the bullet and get a 6.5-20x50mm M1 Loopy, but it remains a viable choice. The question is .....can I bring myself to do it? And there's always Nightforce. The Nikon is looking better and betterer, especially after what 'lito says about 'em. I've got a whole lot of respect for his judgement!
But perhaps I'll just wait 'til next year and make do with what I've got for the present time.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 14:58:24 (ZULU)
You and I were both surprised by the 123s shooting that well at that range. I had shot my 260 with the 140s there a couple of years ago and had about the same results as the 6XC this year. There was no consistancy in where the 140s were hitting. It was as if they were running out of gas. (Which I am sure they were)
I didn't expect the 123s to do anything at all at that range and shot them just to see how bad they fell off compared to the 6XC and was shocked to see that they were going right where I was shooting, just like I was shooting my 6.5x284.
With the XC you didn't know if you would hit it, go over, under or to the left or right when you pulled the trigger. But with the .260 I felt confident if the wind didn't catch me I would have a decent chance of hitting it.
How is your .243 grouping with the 115s??? What type of groups is it shooting at longer ranges?? I would be intrested in knowing how it does for you. I won't be going back to the XC when I shoot this barrel out. If I stay with the 6MM I want something that will still have some "Umph" out there at 1000yds. I am still thinking of a using 6.5x55 with the bigger case and slow powders like your doing with the .243 for better barrel life than my .260s.
Some guys having great luck with them some guys cussing them. When they work they sound like a great round but seem to be picky for some reason.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 15:10:44 (ZULU)
When I mentioned hype in relation to the WSM's is was refering to the national sales blitz that accompanied their introduction.
The one where Winchester performed fellatio on every gunhack that they could find (they would've dug up Jack O'Connor's body if they could have gotten away with it), and bought more pages of propaganda in the gunrags than I've ever seen before.
And the wild-assed claims! I guess they can defy the laws of physics if they do it in their ad copy. That's called "puffery", and the courts allow it, but it's still an insult to the intellegence!
Yeah, talk about hype!!
I've got nothing bad to say about the 7 WSM, especially if it's loaded right and shot in a barrel that's long enough with the proper twist for the boolet being used. Personally, I think it's got lots of promise. I'd like to find out more about it, and truly hope that it doesn't suffer irrevocable damage from the lack of sales before it gains a foothold in the community.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 15:16:31 (ZULU)
My .243 is doing great with the DTAC's. 100yd. five-shot groups in the four tenths range with a best (so far) of .409", three hundred yard groups are hangin'in there at around .5MOA, and its six hundred yard performance seems to only be limited by yours truly, but I've only shot it at that distance twice and both times my wind doping was less than stellar and it was pretty windy. It tracks pretty much where XBAL says it should if I plug in .580 for a BC.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've made some time to take it out to 1000yds in August and I'll find out more then. Heck, it's just turned two-hundred rounds so there's a whole lot yet to be learned. I'm using a 28" Pac-Nor 5 groove 1/7 barrel and it looks like the DTAC's like it. So far no throat movement. I'm going on the slow powder and keep the MV around 3000fps theory to see if there's decent barrel life available in this thing. Here's my load recipe -
115DTAC - naked
Federal 210M primers
2.800" COAL which is .015" from the lands in my chamber
3071MV average over my Oehler 35P
So far I like it, but I'm seriously considering adding a 6.5x47 Lapua barrel next season. There's a good reason to choose that over a .260 if there's decent availability of Lapua brass for it and the .260 brass situation remains the same. I'll wait and see until very early next spring!
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 15:46:41 (ZULU)
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 16:07:56 (ZULU)
Thanks for the info be sure to keep me posted as to how it does with accuacy and barrel wear. I have read a lot about the 6CM over on 6BR but I am not ready to go there yet.
Like you, I am waiting to see if the new star on the horizion is going to be the 6.5x47. If it pans out I will rebarrel to it when my .260 is shot out by then my brass will be getting down to. I guess time will tell. My .260s have served me well over the years. I was one of the first ones to really sing there praises on here. Torf got me going on them years back.
I am hoping now that the 6.5x55 will be close to the 6.5x284 with the 140s only with a lot more barrel life. That will be my next project when funds are available.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 17:10:25 (ZULU)
That's kinda what I was figuring. I wonder if I can find a porter to lug that 28" barreled rifle all over that mountain??? :)
I've run moly .223 and nakid thru the same barrel in a NE Arms HB single shot. The only thing I noticed was a need to fire 7-10 rds of one or the other to reset POI/POA. That barrel went over 7K w/ no loss of accuracy that I could shoot.
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 17:19:39 (ZULU)
Joe Hendricks sure talks up his 6CM on tha 6mmbr site, doesn't he? I can understand the rationale of using slow powders and keeping the velocity down around 3000 fps makes a lot of sense, and so does a strict cleaning regimen, but I want to see what kind of barrel life I can squeeze out of a standard .243 Win. case. I do not want to get into a wildcat cartridge 'cause I still enjoy shooting more than case forming ;)) I'll keep you posted.
I think you're on the right track with a 6.5x55 and would like to build one when I come across a long action. Just another thing to spend my non-existant money on :) and I already have everything but the barrel to build a 6.5x47 so I'll probably do one of those if the cartridge is what it's cracked up to be.
Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 22:22:50 (ZULU)
Concur with 'Lito, this is a very nice system. No lapping, no shimming and it protects the scope body. Also means you don't need a sloped mount to give you a 20 or 25 MOA vertical offset if needed.
If you're really sneaky you can also use it to center the windage on a problem action/mount.
What's not to love :-)
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, July 19, 2006, at 23:42:17 (ZULU)
Iran has a bunch of sleeper agents in the country. Listen up Accchhhhmed; Fuck you. Let's see what you've got then we've got something for you.
Pablo (or whoever): What do you think of the BDC system Nikon puts on this (click) scope? I've never examined one.
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 01:35:52 (ZULU)
Badgers will work, everytime. But in my mind, this investment should accompany a worthy barrel and action...not for a banger kid-gun. That said, I just discovered an urgent need to get Marty's 25MOA Flat top mount for the .260. BTW, a 3.5x10 MK4 LR/T with that knock off stadia Gen II hybrid fell into my lap as a customer return-item, for 25% off retail--yeah, NIB, still sealed in plastic, for 750. Shit! I had to buy it...sorry; I wouldn't have for anything close to list price, honest! I was about to order a Burris...but then I saw this thing on the counter (black Loopy boxes always get a second look). I jokingly offered 3/4s of the known value--and they bit. Whoops.
Burris Zs are the best thing since the much rarer Sako Opti-Loks (try getting a set of "lows" out of season). The insert kits can be had with all the off sets, and you can, if you are anal enough, use creative angling to shim the slop out of almost any industrial mistake. God knows that this process would frustrate anyone but a saint. On the other hand---spend the money up front, eh? And buy a trued, or high quality receiver to begin with. Yeah, I know this but fail to adhere...thank god for z's. Too bad they don't work with eotechs--which is what is on that Mod 7 today.
I am waiting delivery of 3 more JP triggers. I get them cheaper than RRAs, and I find I cannot live without them now. All my ARs are about to be upgraded. Also putting a ACE skelotonized butt stock on the 260 (late arrival). The LOP will be extended on the butt with a deccelerator pad rather than with the extension-inserts at the receiver. I'm going for 13.5-14 inches. And comfort.
The 260 barely moves at all under recoil...when it does, it reminds me to hold harder. It is cool seeing the bullet holes form on target at 100. That thick ol' 24" pipe sure settles this gun down.
Went surfing for brass...260 is sold out in a LOT of sites. I found a few with stockage, and am about to buy a whole bunch. I had not realized how this stuff is drying up...
Playing with cowboy guns is a blast.
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 02:26:45 (ZULU)
What twist rate does your .260s have?
reason I ask is that mine seems tight at 1:7.5. The A2 twist is slightly faster at 1:7, and that is some high RPM. If this 7-1/2 twist is common, cool. I was worried about Amax/ Vmax vaporizing...but then, I ought to load them before i get too worried, eh?
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 02:44:20 (ZULU)
Yep, the Sako Opti-locks are sweet........ $$$$$$
How fast are you pushing the 260? I've never seen a Vmax come apart, but I've never shot them in that tight of rifle. One of my friends was shooting Amax's out of an M1 this past weekend. Terminal ballistics (on water jugs) were quite spectacular.
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 04:07:24 (ZULU)
I have been tring to get the berger VLDS to work but was unable.Now the vlds are more acurate than the sierra's.The only thing I can think of is that I have been setting the Bergers on the lands each time I loaded them.The sierra's on the other hand has been not changed since.
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 04:33:34 (ZULU)
I haven't seen (in person) that BDC reticle... look here, and click the reticle.
It looks like a bunch of diminishing circles.
I'm "GUESSING" that it's one of these systems that at a given power, each circle represents x inches, and you fit the critter in the circle, and kill it - it's a very common system that works pretty "OK" ??
On a second plain reticle, different powers give different values to the circles, so if they are 18" (deer sized) at 8x, they would be Prairie Dog sized at 15.5x.
Call Nikon and ask them for a set of instructions for the BDC system to confirm.
>"Listen up Accchhhhmed; Fuck you. Let's see what you've got then we've got something for you."<
What you said!!!
I have an old(ish) Sako L-146 action on a gun I am building. It has that tapered thing for a base that slids on from the rear and stops in the "U" shapped cut...
Can these optilock thingies fit, or are they only for new actions?
Who stocks the opti-lock thingies??
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 04:42:16 (ZULU)
Cordova, TN, United States - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 04:50:57 (ZULU)
Try these sites:
The last link is the place I got rings/bases for my last Sako.
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 15:50:54 (ZULU)
Joe, my Pac-Nor has a 1-8.6 and shots the 139gr Lapua and 142gr SMks quite well.
The .260 sees a little bit of popularity increase every so often in competition shooting which I believe is why the availability comes and goes. The manufacturers don't see enough folks using it to warrant flooding the market though. Fortunately, it can be made from .243 and .308 brass.
Just ordered my new barrel today. Broughton 5C at 28" with 1-8 twist.
Kinda expensive but has a big variety:
I couldn't tell what was in stock but it's worth a try.
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 16:09:30 (ZULU)
One is 1x8" and this is shots sub .5moa with 139 and 142's. This seems to be the best twist for the 139 and 142 bullets, which are tops for BC at .610 for the 139's
The other is 1x9 and it also shoots sub .5moa with same bullets but have not shot this enough to say it does well at real long ranges.
260 is great round. Far better at distance than a 308 and far less recoil. Shot a match last week and one stage was fastest 300 yard group under 2 5/8" inch, five rounds. My GA Rifle with Badger break never moved off target and my time was 13 seconds, seven seconds faster than next time. My rifle just had no recoil and a monkey could have done that with this equipment. Thanks GA Precision.
CA, - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 18:20:36 (ZULU)
I hate to bug everyone about this, but I am trying to track down a particular brand of ammunition. I can't find it sold anywhere though.
I can't even find a 3D ammunition internet site. I have found places that sell 3D pistol ammo, but nothing else.
The Ammunition is 3M 223 Coyote Duster 55gr. SPBT
Anyone got a handle on where I can locate some of this on the net, or know any local gun store that will ship ammo?
BTW - I just wanted to say that the Tips section is great. After reading through all of that I now know how to break in a rifle. Whenever I go on Leave back to the states I pick one of my firearms to break in correctly.
I have noticed improved accuracy and easier cleaning out of all my rifles, after following the instructions for breaking in the firearm. I also found that my barrels wern't that clean. The heavier cleaners and the JB Bore compound took all sorts of things out of my barrel that the regular cleaners missed.
Thanks to everyone that helped put the tips section together.
Forward, Operating, Location - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 18:49:14 (ZULU)
Will agree with Duman on the TJGeneral Store. You might find the rings ya lookin fer there. Ya also might take a gander at
They sometimes have a pretty good stock of accessories.
Also wanted to wish you the best luck on the home from. Way to go.
In addition - Israel keep kicken the snot out of Hezbollah
Texas, USA - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 20:11:48 (ZULU)
"What twist rate does your .260s have?
reason I ask is that mine seems tight at 1:7.5."
That is pretty tight...Hell the Swedes only used 7.87" twist to revolve their beastly round nose 160 grainers, and I thought that was fast...You sure it's 7.5? and they offer a 7? for subsonic maybe?..Generally Joe, I would recommend 8.5 twist for anything pushing the 142's 2800-3100fps, 8 twist for under to about 2200fps..Why, because it only takes 9.3" of twist to stabilize them to 1K in your part of the country when hitting Mach 3..I've never heard of someone offering 7 and 7.5 twists as standard on their 260's..Whats the rifle make again?
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 20:19:11 (ZULU)
Where to start? Guess the Hezbullah making cease fire noises is a good one. Do they really think that is going to fly? Especially, in the face of the history of cease fires (thiers and others). Typically, these are times that they re-arm, re-train, and bring in the reserves, etc. If they are making overatures now it's because they are being hurt BAD by the Isreali's. How would you like to call a meeting and have the Isreali's show up uninvited all the time? My take is that Isreal is on the right track and should only stop when there is no one left to call for a cease fire. That may just be the game plan. We can only hope.
Burris "Z" rings: Good gear according to the cognesenti(you folks). Corrects a myriad of issues and, as such, is worthwhile. Still, I have issues with buying a product to correct bad engineering, design, or manufacturing. Hence, there are none on my rifles. Rifles with "problems" don't stay in the safe.
WSM & WSSM Country: Whew! Where to start. Talk about marketing hype. Living proof that rifles/calibers are sold on promises that usually fall flat. The comparison of the .300 WSM being equal or superior to the .300 Win Mag is a case in point. The .300 WSM will equal, or come very close to the big .300 Win Mag, but only with lighter projectiles. Go for the 180 grainers and heavier and the big mag runs away from the little guy. Much akin to the comparison of the .308 to the .30/06. As noted, did someone re-write the laws of physics? Then we go on to the "advantages" of the short action vs. long action. No one ever gives a comparison of short vs. long that I am aware of. Then, of course, we have the WSSM series of cartridges. Again, I've never seen anyone note the loss of magazine capacity when using WSM/WSSM cartridges.
Let's face it guys. If short and squat were that superior I'd be America's top male model and women folk would be pining over me instead of Antonio Banderas...
Caliber Country: Glad we have some serious experimenters on the list. Means they do the leg work and I can reap the benefits, if there is a reason to do so. Personally, the .308 does what I want and the 6.5 X .284 gives me a solid performing 6.5. While I see the benefits of other developments there is little pay off for watashi. Still, I am intrigued by the .6.5-08/.260 Remington. At some point will probably barrel an action for one as it seems to be a very good balance between barrel life, velocity, and trajectory. That does picque my intrest. That's what started me down the 6.5 X .284 path.
The trend is toward smaller, lighter, faster cartridges and calibers with extremely high bc's. The small flatter shooting cartridges are easier to shoot well. I'd still rather put some serious bullet weight on target. Rifle designs seem to be moving us toward shooting high velocity phono-graph needles (you do remember them?).
Joe, keep us in the loop on you .260 DPMS rifle. That looks interesting. Wonder what the real differences between your efforts and my GAP AR-10 .308 would be. Especially, if I use 155 grain SMK's or Scenar's.
If you folks are interested in a GAP .338 Lapua let me know. I'll post in the Emporium. A very good deal on a complete "kit". Hate medical bills!
Salem, OR, USA - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 21:34:12 (ZULU)
Sarge, the XD45 is nifty. I played with some at SHOT, and promptly ordered. The Sproingfeld cuss’em shop can perform a trigger job that is really nice. Quiz them before submitting yours though, as I don’t know if they cut down springs or not (like the Taurus cuss’em shop does). My order though hasn’t been filled yet. I assumed that the OD version in 5” would be available about the same time the black was. NOPE! The black 5” version is out, and I’m still waiting. What you said caught me spot-on. Typically I’d swear off anything from Sproingfeld, but since they’re just the importer, I thought I’d give it a go.
Care to guess who first brought up the XD on this site? Unless my memory is mistaken, The Missing Patron brought up the XD long before it was the XD (it was just the 2000 back then). Since then, that pistol design has been meticulously adjusted... the price I mean, it doubled.
And speaking of The Missing Patron, I’d appreciate it if you fellows would put him (Yote Bait for those that came in late) on your prayer list. He’s got some health problems that are slated to be dealt with soon. He’ll be checking out the nurses to be sure.
On the pistols front, I also played with the Taurus 24/7. It struck me as probably good CCW pistol, but lacking for duty type use. Since that time, I’ve come to find out more about the design, and it enticed me to the point I declared “when they come out with a 45 with a 5” barrel, I’ll buy”. That day is now almost here. Stay tuned.
Am I the only one that noticed a picture here a couple weeks ago? I was thumbing through the articles (most of which I don’t read, unless written by Farmer Frank or the rare article by someone else I know) in the front of SGN, when I saw a picture of someone in ACUs, and thought “I know that guy!” LOL! Sure ‘nuff, Patron Sinister. If you’re keeping up on the roaster Patron, Rock On. Looks like the last half dozen years have been good to you!
The mixup on the review I believe would be the XD (Sproingfeld pistol) and the XCR (Robinson Armament mousegun). Since then, I’ve figured out what the Robinson really is: an Americanized version of the FN FNC. Americanized in the fact it has an Israeli FAL type charging handle instead of the Kalashnikov type (significant improvement that!), a much cleaned up –and improved- design on the lower, and a one piece upper/rail fore-end (think LMT Monolithic) instead of the more traditional upper and handguards. So far, my take on it is positive, but it requires some eyeballing. For instance, the QD barrel attachment bolt can come loose after a case and a half or so. If you don’t clean (and therefore check that bolt) at least that often, you could have problems. Same for the gas adjustment locknut. On the good side, once adjusted properly, it didn’t care about running dirty with no lube.
On a related matter, it finally happened: I got a bum primer in Winchester ammo. Remington has given me several, to the point I don’t buy their stuff ever. Winchester? Well, it happened. I’m thinking of trying Federal though, as I note that one out of every four hundred or so rounds of Winchester 223 is loaded a touch light. For cheap white-box ammo, I really can’t complain. But I will.
And the Patron Lawyer has goaded me into posting something, although I question if I’ll be teased about this. JR recommended Wipe Out bore cleaner a while back. Until recently, I couldn’t find any, until I was in a (somewhat) local Sportsmans Whorehouse. I picked it up solely on the word of JR (I’m jabbing at you, ‘cause I e-mailed you for help!) and used it. The directions say to leave it for an hour to overnight, so that’s what I did. A shot of this funky shaving cream every hour for three applications, patching between each one. It took a bit to clean, last cleaning on that barrel was 1700 rounds before. The last application I left to set overnight.
The next day, I pushed a tight patch in, and the patch totally seized about two inches in front of the chamber. Why? Dunno. I’ve never had anything like that ever happen before. Nothing even remotely close. I tried pulling it out, tapping the handle, everything. It was STUCK. I poured CLP in from both ends and let it set. No difference. I should mention that this was the same coated 22 cal rod I’d used for years. Same brass jag as well. Just normal flannel cotton square 22 cal patches, that Bloomers brand. The barrel was chrome lined, 22 cal (5.56 actually), and only had a couple thousand rounds down it.
I got upset, and put another cleaning rod in from the muzzle, and bounced that one on the floor until the handle broke. Still stuck. Eventually my frustration took over, and I wrapped a bit of tubular webbing around the barrel (removed from the action) and looped it around one of those vertical cement pilings used to keep idiots from running into gas pumps. A second piece of tubular nylon webbing went from the back axle of my truck to the cleaning rod. I didn’t want to give it any gas, but that rod held in the barrel to the point the engine at idle was lugging in first gear. A quick slip into 4X4 though did the trick, and the rod popped out. By about 12 feet.
I have no idea what caused that, but I never, NEVER want it to happen again. Once is far too many times. My guess (note the word) was that somehow that shaving cream had laquered up the barrel, so the next day the patch stuck tight. Since then, I’ve used the stuff to finish that barrel, but I use a patch on a loop instead of a jag (much, MUCH looser), to get the stuff out. Tight fitting patch? I THINK NOT!
The only reason I post this is ‘cause I wouldn’t want anyone to have to go through that. I’m with JR, I like the way it works. It especially softens up gas system carbon nicely. That having been said, WATCH how you patch the barrel out if it’s been sitting overnight.
On the WSM stuff, there’s a guy that I work with that has a 100% stocker Winnie 70 in 270 WSM. I’ve been helping him out, ‘cause he can’t load for it. This is the first time I’ve seen a standard-line stocker stick with a chamber too tight to be resized by standard dies. A RCBS chamber comparator shows it to resize about 8 thou longer than factory, if the sizer die is pushing on the shell holder. The only thing I’ve had any thoughts on, as pertaining to the WSM line, is “gee, I bet this would work pretty well if I necked this 270 WSM down to 6.5mm”. My guess is that it’s really close to the 30-06 in case capacity, but I could be off. Fitting a 6.5 WSM in a short action has some appeal, but only if a Win WSM action falls into my hands cheap. It would take something along those lines, and someone else having great luck with it, for me to find a need to move from the Swede. Swede: for those of us antiques that don't wanna run that new-fangled 6.5X284.
Seems I went to a tactical open house (or should that be an open tactical house?) this last weekend, and got to play with the DPMS stick that Patron Joe got, but in 7.62 NATO. Seemed like a nifty thing to me! That was probably one of the finer pieces they had. Lots of black-chicken ninja nylon, way too many mouseguns, and silliness abounded. Nice fellows though. Almost nice enough for me to want to get a non-resident Nevada license, but not quite.
I'm outta here for a while, doing the run-and-gun roadtrip. Don't burn things down while I'm gone LOL!
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 22:08:32 (ZULU)
Bravo: 4-wheeling with your barrel?!? Good grief, man! Wish I had been there with a camera.
New Cartouches: That's what keeps this sport interesting. If there was never a new cartridge conjured up every now and then, it would get dull fast.
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 23:07:59 (ZULU)
Did you try the grease gun get the patch out method?
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 23:16:02 (ZULU)
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 23:30:00 (ZULU)
"Grease gun method".... I'm not familiar with that.
Burn the patch out... as in using 'gasoline' or 'alcohol' ?
Thursday, July 20, 2006, at 23:44:37 (ZULU)