Sniper Country Duty Roster

July 2004

Amen brothers.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 01:19:38 (ZULU)

Steven - I didnt write that piece - but was more than happy to do my part in helping that message find it's way to the BG's.

Take care, God Bless,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USA (UNDER GOD for those that dont get it) - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 01:47:31 (ZULU)

Demo

Mum's the word.

Joe Ducos
Turlock, CA , USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 05:13:31 (ZULU)

What a "Band of Brothers!"

Thank you.......

Michael
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 05:38:40 (ZULU)

Ken,

Thanks.

Chigger bite sufferers,

Have any of you guys tried Chigg-Away? Here's their address:

http://www.chiggaway.com/ Don't know if it works or not.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The hot & muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 11:37:34 (ZULU)

Hello i have been lerking in the shadows and reading the archives, for 2 years or so and i must say i have rather enjoyed it, but to the queston. Has any one had experiance with Galati products in perticuler there shooters mat? http://www.wiskur.com/shootersmat.html it looks to me like a copy of the eagle hybrid. And is there quality good, Warrrenty??? thanks for all the info kenny

kenny rierson
Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 11:46:31 (ZULU)

Copied and pasted from S/Hide website. Why wasn't this the lead story on CNN?????

"UN CONFIRMS: WMDs SMUGGLED OUT OF IRAQ by Rod D. Martin, 18 June 2004

In a report which might alternately be termed "stunning" or "terrifying", United Nations weapons inspectors confirmed last week not merely that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, but that he smuggled them out of his country, before, during and after the war.

Late last week, the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission

(UNMOVIC) briefed the Security Council on Saddam's lightning-fast dismantling of missile and WMD sites before and during the war. UNMOVIC executive chairman Demetrius Perricos detailed not only the export of thousands of tons of missile components, nuclear reactor vessels and fermenters for chemical and biological warheads, but also the discovery of many (but not most) of these items -- with UN inspection tags still on them -- as far afield as Jordan, Turkey and even Holland.

Notably absent from that list is Iraq's western neighbor Syria, ruled by its own Baath Party just like Saddam's and closed to even the thought of an UNMOVIC inspection. Israeli intelligence has been reporting the large-scale smuggling of Saddam's WMD program across the Syrian border since at least two months before the war. Syria has long been the world's foremost state-sponsor of terrorism.

Perricos highlighted the proliferation danger to the Security Council, as well he should: UNMOVIC has no idea where most of the WMD material is today, just that it exists and it's gone; and anything in Syria is likely to be in Jerusalem or New York tomorrow.

This is the biggest news story of 2004 so far. Yet you haven't heard about it, have you? You probably haven't heard about Canada's Prime Minister Paul Martin either -- a socialist and no friend of America. Addressing a group of 700 university researchers and business leaders in Montreal last month, Martin stated bluntly that terrorists have acquired WMDs from Saddam. "The fact is that there is now, we know well, a proliferation of nuclear weapons, and that many weapons that Saddam Huseein had, we don't know where they are. [T]errorists have access to all of them," the Canadian premier warned.

The tip of this terrorist sword was scarcely deflected on April 26th, when Jordanian intelligence broke up an al Qaeda conspiracy to detonate a large chemical device in the capital city of Amman. Directed by al Qaeda terrorist leader Abu al-Zarqawi -- the same man who personally beheaded American Nicholas Berg in Iraq last month -- the plotters sought to use a massive explosion to spread a "toxic cloud", meant to wipe out the U.S. embassy, the Jordanian prime minister's office, the Jordanian intelligence headquarters, and at least

20,000 civilians (by contrast, only 3,000 died on 9/11). Over twenty tons of chemical weapons were seized from the conspirators, who were just days away from carrying out their plot.

One wonders where CNN and USA Today think twenty tons of nerve gas and sarin came from: Chemical Weapons-Mart? Yet their coverage, like most major media outlets, mentioned not a word about Saddam's smuggled WMDs, which -- according to liberal dogma -- "don't exist."

Even though the UN says they do exist, now spread around the world.

It's not just the UN. Bill Clinton says they exist, even after the war: in a July 2003 interview with Larry King, the ex-president uncharacteristically defended George Bush, saying "it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there [was]...a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for" in Iraq. Every intelligence agency in the world -- French, British, German, Russian, Czech, you name it -- agreed before the war; Jordanian intelligence can certainly confirm their opinion today.

So what's the deal? Why the relentless pretence that "Bush lied" when even the UN and Bill Clinton say he didn't? Why the absolute silence about "inconvenient" parts of various UN reports, such as the discovery of chemical and biological weapons plans, recipes and equipment; of bio-weapons agents in an Iraqi scientist's house; of a prison lab for testing bio weapons on humans; of complexes for manufacturing fuel for prohibited long-range missiles; of artillery rounds containing enough sarin to kill thousands of people, of

similar shells containing mustard gas, two (but far from the only) of which were used in a terrorist attack against U.S. forces just weeks ago?

America cannot afford the answer to this "why": that many on the left consider George W. Bush's defeat more urgent than al Qaeda's, his political death more essential than the possible physical death of millions of Americans.

The character of our foreign enemies has never been in doubt. The character of the enemy within -- from Dan Rather to Michael Moore -- has never been clearer. And the stakes are the highest they've ever been. "

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 11:57:45 (ZULU)

On a different note,

Mk4...Amen!

Ken..thank you!

Medicjim..."I will simply reform hell to be the preferred venue." Of all the people I've met, you're one of the only ones I'd expect to believe that could be accomplished, and I believe you'd give it hell. (compliment) :)

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 12:07:53 (ZULU)

A remedy for Chiggers? See M. Jim .. There is a God! Only 6 plagues left to go.

Had we talked as much about beaching at Normandy as we did invading Iraq the outcome would have been different. To think that IF there were weapons of mass destruction, they wouldn't have been hidden or smuggled to a safe place would be a height of Western Stupidity. Wishful thinking will not take us out of this mess. We have to find the weapons or learn to live with the threat as we did in the cold war. We must simply be ready to use the weapons we have developed to counter the weapons of the opposition and make the possibility of reprisal so fearsome that those who attack will know they are committing their own cause to destruction if they do. The unfortunate truth is that either way Civilians will suffer. That's war unless you have been reading the press lately. The first rule is tear something up before you build it.

Brogers
Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 12:39:35 (ZULU)

Have a great friend, silhouette competitor, falconer. Can tell ya if a red tailed hawk is hungry or horny.

If he were not such an accomplished hunter and fisherman, you would think he was a PETA type. Animal lover big time and a self proclaimed agnostic ...

On the way back from a match in south Texas, a mongrel dog ran in front of us on the 610 Loop in Houston. There was no where to go and my pal hit the dog. Bam ... He exclaimed OH MY GOD !

The dog survived it and ran off but it may as well have been another human as far as my pal was concerned. He was visibly shaken.

I looked at him and then looked away kinda chuckling and shaking my head. He got pissed at me.

WHAT IN THE HELL IS FUNNY ABOUT RUNNING OVER A DOG !

Nothing I said ... I was just wondering who you were calling out to when you hit him ?

He didn't even realize what he had said.

"About that time, GOD ... showed up"

Forrest Gump

brian k. sain
Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 16:47:59 (ZULU)

Jerry....to incoming emails from me.....

On the "religious/God" messages.....I'm not gonna mention names, but as a Christian believer in the Bible, the true word of God, I'm praying for guys to test yourselves......Read and study the Bible first, then try and deny he doesn't exist !!!! Many of the greatest Biblical Scholars in this world today were also non-belivers, until they tried to prove God's non-existence by using the Bible as their "weapon"......didn't work !!!!

Many folks get out of something only what they are willing to put into it.......give God's word a chance through reading and studying it FIRST.....

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 17:43:59 (ZULU)

The Bible can actually make great reading.. Been there, done that.

I have spent time reading the "tome" of each major religion... currently reading up on the Sikhs...interesting stuff.... very cool, very "American".

medicjim
Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 18:35:56 (ZULU)

Organised Religion, and a personal relationship with God, are often mutualy exclusive.

Religion is politics in drab clothes.

J.C. was no fan of organised religion, he even trashed a temple or two himself!

Jim your on the right track, just keep your eyes open.

Speaking of light reading, I just finished Tom Clancy's Executive Orders. It fits in with all of todays topics. A good read.

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 19:50:22 (ZULU)

MedicJim: Some are out to save yer soul. Let's be done with religion; hell--even politics are a bitch on this roaster (even as we all share similar views). Heheh.

WMDs: I would wonder what is going on with that one. On the obvious side, the Kurds did not die of natural causes. But on the side I get to see, you guys have no idea what's been found here and there.

Perhaps we are just adding it all up and cataloguing it; if so: I would put my money on a big report about October 15th or so...

Quiet night...tomorrow is prayer day---maybe they be getting some bag-time. One can hope.

Demo

Demo
Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 20:38:19 (ZULU)

I think one of the best quotes on organized religion was from the Archbishop of Canterbury about 1970. This is my paraphrase: "Christianity is a wonderful force to have survived the church so long."

WR Moore
Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 23:36:37 (ZULU)

I just read this over on Snpiers Hide, YES I do look over the other sniper sites, anyway it was posted that John Williams Sr, owner of US Optics was killed in a motorcycle accident on his way to work this morning.

Here is the URL over on SH for those that are interested. There is also a short post there from John Jr.

http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004421;p=1#000018

Our condolences to the Willliams Family. Truely sad day when a supporter of the shooting sports passes on.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 00:47:05 (ZULU)

Medic Jim,

You pulled me out of the EOC...... ;-)

Just about two years ago:7/10/02 17:00 hrs approx.

The last thought that went through my mind before I was hit head on by a 26,000 pound dump truck (moving at about 35-45 miles an hour with a burning jeep imbedded on the front) was "God protect my family, and take me into your arms"

I'm still here, and the last comment I heard before departing in an ambulance from a Berkeley County Deputy Sheriff buddy of mine, was "You're VERY lucky to be alive."

My response was "I had the best "Co-Pilot" in the world."

That kinda panicked/startled him eliciting "Somebody else was in the car?"

I just pointed upwards as I was loaded in the meatwagon...........

peteR
By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A. - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 00:58:41 (ZULU)

September 22, 1999 - Hurricaine Floyd hit my town. The rain turned a 10 foot wide stream into a 300' wide river, trapping a half dozen people mid-stream. While attemting a rescue, I found myself pinned, underwater, being dragged downstream by a full sized, uprooted tree. In pain from being slammed repeatedly into boulders at speed and out of air....ABSOLUTELY nothing came to my rescue. I simply dug deep and saved my own sorry ass. It isn't the first time either.

PeteR - what's going on down there that warrants activating the EOC, I wasn't even aware you were on an LEPC.

medicjim
Friday, July 2, 2004, at 01:48:23 (ZULU)

Well, another foray into sniping on the cheap. Sold one of the mouseguns, bought a Salvage Mod.10 HB LE version. 20" bbl. I've got just over 100 rounds through it so far, here's the results. It's capable of one-hole groups at 100, just over 1" at 200, 300 is still out in the weeds, as I tend to go to s**t at 3, 400 is will do just under 3", if you don't count the flyer I threw. (for some reason, I've been having twitch problems in my left arm when prone.) 500 yds, it shoots under a minute. I finally gave in and ran some of that valve-grinding compound Dirty Steve gave me down the tube, as it was coppering up a bit, I thought it had buggered the bore, as the next cold bore shot was way out there, the groups had opened up. Probably just needed to settle in, as at 15 rounds it dropped back into the one hole habit again. Howa's and Savages....the pauper's way to go.

Ah, back to the important stuff....religion. Here's the Cliff notes version of the Bible. First half-don't mess with God. Second half-be nice to people. Chuch is cool, but Hay-zoos (sorry, I live in South Tejas) didn't spend much time there the last few years, I don't either. The Book is a manual, once you get it down and take it to heart, it isn't necessary (IMHO) to spend all yer time in class.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 03:30:51 (ZULU)

Oh, and I'll be in Missouri watching my eldest daughter graduate from Basic at Ft. Leonard Wood the 8th and 9th. Hoo-Ya! (that's the correct, NAVY way to say it)

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 03:39:30 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt,

Congrat's on your daughters graduation, and having an especially accurate Savage. BUT, you forgot to mention what cartridge it uses, 308, 223 or ?

Jay Dee
Pasco, Washington, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 05:27:12 (ZULU)

Hunting Africa? Maybe not with a gun....

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1551531,00.html

More of this is headed our way if we don't stop it.

Be ever vigilant.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 06:28:16 (ZULU)

Does anyone out there have any experience with the Blaser 93 LRS2 rifle in .338 Lapua. I'm just wondering if it is really as "good" as the gun magazines make it out to be. "Good" in terms of innovative design and engineering. Is it REALLY as accurate as the rags say? Is it too fancy/finicky to thrash in the field? (I saw one article that commented it might not do well in environments with lots of sand because it was too "open".) Are the TRGs as accurate or more durable? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks. Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 08:47:38 (ZULU)

Almost forgot to ask....I was also looking for information regarding experiences with the DPMS Panther in .308....good/bad otherwise gun. (Seems Kiesler's Wholesale in Indiana has them for $839.) Thanks.

Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, 97132 - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 10:28:04 (ZULU)

Gerry, leave the Blaser R93 well alone, it is a cheap piece of shit, that happens to be pretty expensive, it reminds me of a toy gun i had when i was a kid, made in Taiwan.. The Blaser is an accurate rifle, i can't argue with that, which testifies that mass produced, hammer forged barrels can be very accurate, the lock up of the rifle is an interesting affaire, in my opinion this kind of radial flanged lock up deserves further developement, however the material used on the R93 is simply not up to the job it is required to do, we have had cases here in germany of the radial flanges failing which means you get the whole breach mech right in your kisser. The R93 from Blaser, whichever version is like furnature from Ikea, good ideas let down by poor investment in developement and quality of materials. The rifle is mostly alluminium and plastic and will not, i repeat will not stand up to the day in day out abuse of heavey hunting, much less actual sniper rifle deployment or hard range use. I know that Sig Arms are promoting the Blaser R93, but believe you me, the Blaser is not up to in any way the quality of the Sig name and is only in there because the guys who own Sig also own Sauer and Sohn, Kettner,Sig arems and a few others. The 338 Lap version cannot be barrel interchanged with the other calibers as far as i know. Now if you are interested in a switch barrel sniper rifle, look at the Tactical version of the SHR970, or the SSG3000.and if you want a realy nice rifle look at the SWS2000.

The Sako TRG family of sniper weapons are FAR FAR superior to the R93, and if you gave me the choice between an R93 LRS2 and a Ruger, then i'd take the ruger..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 10:37:00 (ZULU)

Everyone have a safe and happy Independence Day.

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 12:14:03 (ZULU)

Does any one have any recommendations for a facility that teaches a High Angle Rescue Course? I am in need of some information on facilities that offer this training. Location must be CONUS and the course must be in accordance with NFPA requirements. I am looking for someone that will be running a course in the fall.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Thanks

Keith

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 14:34:37 (ZULU)

Keith,

Check with the Nat'l Assoc. of Tower Erectors. We have to send our guys to be certified. There are several schools in the NE.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 14:48:53 (ZULU)

Kieth,

Email sent via roster RE high angle... I am an instructor.

medicjim
Friday, July 2, 2004, at 14:55:01 (ZULU)

Ken Hunter,

I need to get in touch with you regarding my riflemen email account, please advise as to how get in touch. roster mail is useless at this point as it points to this account.

Steve

Steve ~ Hockeyref
Friday, July 2, 2004, at 15:34:17 (ZULU)

Ranges- anyone know any ranges in Virginia that shoot F class at the actual long range? With all the military bases here in the state there's gotta be some place to do this that doesn't involve a bench.

Have a safe & happy 4th of July.

WR Moore
Friday, July 2, 2004, at 19:19:53 (ZULU)

WR Moore

Have you checked Quantico?

http://www.quanticoshootingclub.com/

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 19:37:57 (ZULU)

Pete Lincoln

Thanks guy for your direct and non-sugar coated comments on the Blaser R93. The magazines made it sound too good and it was nice to hear some comments from a "non-magazine" writer. I was narrowing my choices. I did an online Google search for "SWS2000" as you suggested but the only results the search returned were for a Steam Wallpaper remover or a wavelength attenuator...how do I find out more about your suggestion? Thanks again.

Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, USA - Friday, July 2, 2004, at 20:56:16 (ZULU)

Gerry,

I wholeheartedly agree with Piggy Pete's comments on the Blaser. I have had clients in Africa who have brought the Blaser with mixed results, mostly disasterous. A friend (another PH) was seriously injured a few years back, as well as his client when the Blaser in 375 H&H the client was shooting came apart. The client was injured by the rifle and the PH by the badly wounded buff that instantly turned and charged from 20meters.

The TRG on the other hand is great if you are looking for a 338 Lapua. I have one and speak with experience. I recently learned that Barretta may be bringing in barrels for the TRG's that are pourpose built for the 250scenars. The TRG is a fairly no-nonsense tactical rifle, though the round is really not all that great for domestic "police" work. Way too powerful. Great 1k round though, if you have a nice strong shoulder!

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 01:16:59 (ZULU)

Jay Dee:

It's chambered in .308. I spoke with a gentleman this morning that was shooting a Savage chambered in .300 WSM. It was shooting one-hole groups at 100....interesting. I've been thinking of getting something that will pound the heck out of my new, improved shoulder.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 03:36:53 (ZULU)

Gerry. never mind the google search, go to the links on here,, there is one to SWS2000, the web site ain't as good as it might be but the weapon has real potential, the buggers where supposed to be giving me one to test and write about but seem to be too damn busy,, anyway never mind, i gave em some suggestions of what the needed to do to turn the rifle into a fieldable sniper package and if they do what i suggested the thing will be one superb piece of sniper kit,, not that the rifle is lacking at all, i just made some comments on accessories that the package must have. the rifle is a superbly accurate, tough as old boots well thought out design, its very scimilar to the Unique Alpine sniper rifle,, but the unique is made of alloy,, and the SWS is all steel,, or even titanium if you want it.

Yep the blaser is a chrock of shit, its dangerous. The lock up is a system that needs looking into, i believe that with further developement and space aged materials the lock up, when incorporated into a traditional style bolt action would be a significant advance on anything we have seen so far, now wether the radial flange would be developed to work along with some of the ball bearing / cam lock ups like some of the Heyms have or by caming it to close in another way i dunno, but 360 deg of locking surface, on a tapered cam means that the case if forced into the chamber and held tight in place, now that is a good starting point for an accurate rifle,, add a good barrel to it and you are on a winner if the rest of the rifle isn't a cheap piece of crap like the Blaser, www.sws2000.de also look at the sig arms SHR970, which i always refer to as the poor mans sauer 202, but whilst i believe (and know) that the sauer 202 is a nice piece of kit, the SHR is a little more rugged and a simpler design, i am thinking about building a tactical rifle on SHR970 action, i'm just waiting on an answer about getting the part that screws on to the rear end of the barrel that provides for the lock up as i would like to be able to use other than Sig barrels, mate that to a M40A1 McMillan stock,, add a couple of spare barrels in different calibers,, nice !!

talking of nice, i got my mix match of a mauser screwed back together with its new walther barrel, nice stout barrel, should be fun and will give them piggies a good ole slapping, 250 grain bullet at 2500fps ish.. i'm having a fart about with the striker at the mo, the thing has an 03 springfield bolt and Jody n Joe gave me some springfield bits, i've added the safety to the arse end of the bolt ala 03, and i realy like the knurled rounded rear end of the striker that is original 03 springffield, but the cocking piece that this is part of doesn't mate to the trigger possition in the mauser action,the striker that is mated to the rifle doesn't have the rounded rear end, so i'm playing about to make it fit.. realy looking forward to shooting this stick,, i'm having a bit of a mare trying to find a damn picatinny rail for it that aint to damn high, the front end of the reciever is standard mauser but the rear bridge has been cut through and a piece added to accomodate the height of the 03 Spr 3rd(rear) locking lug, can't seem to find anything but the original parker hale bases that will fit and those buggers won't mate with weaver style rings, i'll get the thing sorted out though, have to shorten the barrel to 20" and thread it for a moderator too..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 06:51:37 (ZULU)

Anyone know anything about why the Savage 110 is such a piece of shit when it comes to extracting? It just flat don't grab; no mark on case or anything! Worked one day, Doc (my dentist) pulled 'er out to shoot w/me, and it quit working! I think it extracted once or maybe twice! Too bad, Savage used to make a good rifle. I'm currently in a devoted, LOVING relationship w/a custom Mauser '98 .30-06 w/22" inch pipe, wearing a Lyman 6X that NEVER fogs. Also sporting a jaeger adj. trigger.

Spurrit
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 09:00:51 (ZULU)

re: Savage 110 extraction

Spurrit - could you provide some details?

I have a 110 in .308W with an aftermarket brl, and it extracts just fine. I don't recall hearing reports of extraction issues on Savage 110 units in general.

- Chambering?

- Factory or aftermarket brl?

- Factory or handloaded ammo?

- Specs on ammo?

- Any signs of excessive pressure in primers?

- Appearance of fired brass?

If the extractor itself is mangled, they're easy to replace. Brownells sells factory replacements. I would suggest getting the ball and spring that tension it at the same time, since they would be easy to lose/launch when making the change.

Greasing the bolt cam points will smooth operation too.

Savage seems to have changed from steel to berrylium copper as the material for extractor. The latter material is hard w/o the brittleness of steel (good toughness).

Some factory barrels come with rough chambers, or can get rough thru corrosion. The fired brass will look mottled in that case. Polishing the chamber will usually resolve that problem.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 11:11:46 (ZULU)

PeteR,

Real good to see you round man.

BlaserR93,

What the Yorkshireman said..Too many 'what ifs', I rate it a potentially dangerous lock up...I'm sure Blaser would come back with 'vee have had zis rifle tested safe at zee proof house vis proof house loads, vee have all zee data, vee have tested rifle to function reliably in all conditions', but then again they still won't admit that the engine is in the wrong end of the Porsche...Or is Blaser in Austria, can't remember..

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 11:29:02 (ZULU)

JR dude,youz vont cheez oder hamm? you missed another festival here again..had to drink all the beer by my self last night.

Not that one thinks that all Blaser ideas are crap, they do have a nice line in single shot rifles and in combination weapons that do have some ingeniouse ideas to them, I ain't sure who makes their barrels, but the buggers do shoot well.

get any muck fluff dust or custard in that R93 and the sod won't work though. I just cannot comprihend how popular the damn things are here though, Blaser know how to advertise thats a fact.

email you about some bits later on..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 11:51:56 (ZULU)

Savage makes a good gun these days. The weather warrior hunting series is probably as good as guns gets. The heavies are also hard to beat. Get the accutrigger though.

Shot a Manlicher PSG with double set triggers yesterday. It would shoot anywhere you wanted. Some things on it like the bolt and those rear locking lugs ah la 788 Remington are strange but really shoots. 5 shots at 100 went one hole with one 1/2" out. 1.5" at 500 and super nice over all. I've had one before but I don't remember it shooting as well as this newer one.

We also tested a .300 SAUM. That one came home with me. I'm not sure what I have wrought but it's Sendero Flutted Stainless class and quite impressive. 3 Consecutive 3 shot groups at 500 all under 2". I'm not used to that with factory stuff. More fun today at a klick or so. More news at 6. Oh yeah, almost forgot the .223 Tikka stainless varminter I think it was. 1/4" 3 shot cold bore and all. Bolt like glass. Trigger could use a little overtravel stop as it was adjusted .....Where've you been all my life little Tikka?

Brogers
Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 12:34:49 (ZULU)

California GOP: Democrats shunned war hero

Refused 4th-of-July ceremony, citing religious, political views

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39266

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 12:42:26 (ZULU)

Always Airborne!

On the Savage rifles,... I have the same results with my Savage 10FP LE2 and I also love the Howa 1500. I've shot my bud's Rem 700 and I'll take the Savage and Howa any day. Not everybody makes a great income to put hundreds into a gun, so for the price, you can beat the savage and howas. My savage 112FV in 223 is a tack driver at 100 yds too. Gonna take to Bragg ranges this month an shoot 600 yds and see how it performs. Guess I got PMSS (Poor Mans' Shooting syndrome. ;-)

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC, USA - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 13:46:41 (ZULU)

Pete,

I would maybe try a pit rail blank, they come in many thicknesses. I got a stainless steel one for the wife's Mauser. Access to a mill with a 1 3/8" ball end cutter will do the front, your on your own for the rear, and you can make it in any height or cant you want. Another option would be to mix and match 2 piece weaver bases until you get the same height and use something like a Leatherwood QD rail if you need the full rail. Since you raised the rear bridge, is it the same height as the old mag hump? God I love welding up Mausers!

Rob

Robert Martin
Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 13:56:08 (ZULU)

Rob,i aint sure what the height or the rear bridge is, i aint measured it, but its about as much higher than the front end is as the rear of a remington is less than the front.. if that makes sense. I machined a US optics picatinny that Joe S gave me to fit, but the rail is realy high and i would like something lower. I'll measure the difference in the thickness of the parker hale bases that came with the rifle, i could make a badger rail fit, but i am trying to find one that fits so i don't have to do any work,, lazy eh.. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 16:39:11 (ZULU)

test post

Charlie Shoesmith
Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 17:35:34 (ZULU)

happy Independence Day to you all

avi.

avi
haifa, israel, israel - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 20:48:11 (ZULU)

any of you guys know if you can get a match trigger for an accuracy international AW model

and a 20MOA picatiney rail, any web address's would be a grate help..

hi pete L / JR, catch up with ya soon.

les.

les bacon
hexham, northumberland, united kingdom - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 21:53:00 (ZULU)

Savages suck!! JK! Never had any extraction problems with mine.

On an early note.....

Happy Independence Day to my fellow roster hawgs!

Celebrating the birth of the greatest Country on earth, gets me excited, and sometimes a little choked up.

Got a bunch of family and friends coming over tomorrow. The yard will be decorated with American flags, red/white/blue ribbons and bunting. Fireworks! BEER!

To the veterans.....THANK YOU for your service defending this great country on our behalf, God bless you!!!!

You too medic_jim! ;-)

Geoff M
WI, USA! - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 22:31:30 (ZULU)

Warning Shooting Related Post:

Started to break-in my 6.5-06 today and it looks very promissing. I was shooting some 129? grain Sierra softpoint bullets I picked up at the NRA convention and loaded them over 49 grains of IMR4350. I had three shots touching at 200 yards shooting off a bench, cleaning between each shot, using iron sights. Going to try some 142 SMK for some serious work.

Happy 4th of July.

Jerry

jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 22:38:10 (ZULU)

Hey Hawgs,

Couple things....

1. Happy Independence Day. I'm pretty sure no one here forgets what it's about, but let's not make sure anyone else does. No better way to celbrate our freedoms than to take a kid shooting on the fourth!

2. Jerry, thanks so much for the Browning offer. I'm gonna have to pass for two reasons. First is, my car's tranny is starting to go tits up, and I fear a major repair at best, and a new vehicle at worst. Second is I'm not a MD resident and since Gov. Glenspending's tenure, it's now such a pain in the ass for a non-resident to get a handgun, I don't even bother.

3. Guys, I just got my rack grade, Greek return, HRA Garand from the CMP on Friday. That's only 9 days from the day I dropped the order in the mail! It's a 5.5 million HRA. The only NON HRA parts are the Op Rod, and the rear sight elevation spindle (that's a BM59 part...go figger). It's got the original HRA barrel (tag was marked "barrel") which was dirty as hell, but cleaned up like a champ. Trigger group (all HRA) looks unfired. I'm cleaning up the stock right now and should look purty. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, if you want a Garand, get it NOW! My rack grade HRA cost $295!

Later all

Rich S,
MD, - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 23:30:30 (ZULU)

Les - the AI triggers, while two-stage, are easily adjustable. Everyone who has snapped the one on mine has gotten a big smile on their face, followed by a sound like "Ahhhhh!" Have you tried adjusting the trigger? I've fired rifles with "match triggers" that weren't nearly so nice.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 23:54:55 (ZULU)

Spent a good part of today getting a fairly large police department in the area squared away with hazmat PPE.... These guys have their sh_t in order and are damn serious about training and kit... Everything they had in inventory needed another look due to the new CBRN standards.

I sure hope tomorrow is quiet...everywhere.

Happy Birthday America!

medicjim
Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 01:56:29 (ZULU)

Savages;

I have a few. Never any trouble with extraction. There is a topic about on savageshooters.com, click my name for the site.

Happy Independence Day!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 03:09:51 (ZULU)

Rob Martin -were you affected by that non-sense with the SA gun laws?

Have any insight into that whole situation? Seems like South Africa is "shooting themselves in the foot" and messing with your livelihood too. Rumbleings from hunters not wanting to go places where guns are not welcomed is not good.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 03:42:39 (ZULU)

Tomorrow is the 4th of July and I am a Lucky father! My Marine Son will be having dinner with me and my parents! My heart goes out to the parents of military members who are serving in dangerous areas and cannot spend the 4th with loved ones! They are in my prayers each and everyone! My thoughts drift to one of our own roster folks, Joe Mahon! I had the pleasure to break bread with Joe about a year ago! My son had just joined the Marines and was in basic. Joe was in Columbia, SC for a week and I invited him to dinner with me and my bride! He gratefully accepted the invitation from a complete stranger and met with us at a local restaurant. Joe helped me to understand why my son had made the decision to join the Marines and not another branch of the military. He gave me some insight to understand the love of a father and son! My wife was awestruck when Joe let slip with a four letter word and apologized profusely for the slip! A true gentleman in every fashion! When we parted that evening I shook has hand and thanked him for the evening and service to our country! Joe made a lasting impression on me and I consider it an honor to have met him. I know from following the roster that Joe in not home tonight! God Bless you Joe, and may he hold you safe in the palm of his hand!

Barron Moreland
Lexington, SC, - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 04:26:52 (ZULU)

Ey up Les, US optics do a picatinny conversion rail, i am sure that AI have one also cos i'm sure ive seen it, shame they didn't have a stand at the IWA this year. You still using that AI alloy air gun type mount are you? crap ain't they, won't return to zero and are weak. The reciever top is flat right? drilling and tapping the reciever for a flat picatinny base is a simple engineering task that any competent gunsmith should be able to carry out. Why the hell AI continue to stick with that dove tail and shitty mount system is beyond me, it lets the whole rifle down, they could machine a picatinny rail right into the reciever (like SWS2000 do) instead. Contact AI and see what they suggest..and you can adjust that trigger if you ain't happy with the pull, its easy enough to do,I ain't sure if the trigger is still the same from the L96A1 to your rifle, but i have detailed instructions from military publications on how to adjust that trigger, i can copy them and send you em if you like... have a little fishy on a little dishy for me will you.. ha,, you geordie git.. ha ha.., take care mate. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 06:23:20 (ZULU)

Yes Mr. Shoesmith, you did it right. :)

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 09:28:31 (ZULU)

Happy Birthday USA!!

Ditto a big thanks to all who keep us free and safe in out daily lives!

I had an very interesting talk with some relatives from South Africa (two weeks annual US visit) last night on the subject of their new firearms laws.

The jist is "THEY SUCK" big time. Everything from preliminary registration to possesion/intent to possess a firearm comes under scrutiny.

I believe they are following the "Massachusetts plan" for a long term goal of disarmament of the masses.

Scarier yet, In many areas the S-A police cannot get ammo to do their mandated firearms qualifications due to "budget changes" by those in power and some officers haven't qualified for extensive periods of time (read 2-3 years) in some locations..........

Marius - Input from your end of the country????

Oh I forgot ........ VARGET!!!!!!!

peteR
By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A. - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 11:28:40 (ZULU)

medicjim,

What type of PPE was purchased for the LEO's?

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 12:12:54 (ZULU)

Les, Scott lists a picatinny rail from Badger Ord in the SC PX, i can't find ref to it on the Badg ord web site though.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 12:55:50 (ZULU)

Happy Independence Day, ya'll!!!

Here's a kind of neat-o link, you can shoot fireworks with the click of the mouse:

http://www.njagyouth.org/liberty.htm

You turn on the English news here(get english and scottish news, completely different), they'd make you think Yanks aren't too welcome...I still have yet to find that attitude personally, the brits and scots naturally try to wind a guy up, but nothing like the news would like you to think, no hate...

Hey there Les!!! UK is getting some representation here, we got Yorkshire Pete, Welshman Jon, Northumbrian Les, London Dry...

what a world we live in eh!!! happy 4th eh!!!!!!

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 15:01:48 (ZULU)

Absolutely I was affected by the RSA gun laws changes. We didn't think they would be implemented all at once. Over 100 hunters were stranded in the airport, many missing connecting flights because of this crap. Used to be, you filled out a simple 2 page form, they (police in the airport) checked the form against the serial # and issued you the permit. I have heard that the form is now 18 pages and they required fingerprinting of some folks (probably revolver guys-RSA wants to outlaw revolver hunting). One of the biggest changes affecting us is that it is still up in the air whether or not foreigners need to mark (stamp) the reciever, barrel and bolt with the serial #, or if we don't need this for temporary importation. They are also stating switch barrel guns are out. Many people hunt with Thompsons and Blasers. We are hoping they mean that you can only bring one barrel or pair per gun. That really sux, because I have a set of 12ga. bbls for my double rifle, and this would preclude that. I am waiting for a copy of the new gun laws, but they are a joke.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 15:24:38 (ZULU)

News story from RSA-Author: André Janse van Vuuren

Johannesburg - More than 100 foreign hunting tourists struggled on Thursday to stay on track of the new gun act amid huge confusion about its implications.

Tour operators at Johannesburg International were dodging difficult questions from impatient visitors who have had to wait for up to four hours to complete the paperwork for their arms.

A group of 70 hunters, who arrived on a flight from the United States, and another of at least 30 from Europe were delayed by the new regulations.

Gary Davies, executive chairperson of the Association for Professional Hunters of South Africa, said some of the tourists missed connecting flights because of the delay.

Davies said they agreed to interim measures with the police at the last moment so that the hunting tourists could meet the requirements of the law.

Although it was agreed the firearms could be brought into the country according to the old act's stipulations, the gun-owners still had to fill out the new application form.

Had to wait for two to four hours

After this, they had to go through the form with the help of a police officer and have their fingerprints taken.

"People arrive here after a 16-hour flight from the United States and then have to wait between two and four hours to be helped," said the manager of a business licensed to accompany hunters and their equipment through the reception area.

He said there were no chairs or refreshments for the applicants.

A hunter from Texas apparently said he wouldn't have come to South Africa if he had known what awaited him.

National police spokesperson André Lesch confirmed that arms permits for tourists had been awarded according to the old act.

"We'll set up clear guidelines to which visitors must stick and we'll relay them to the hunting industry," he said.

Solomon Mokgaale of the Airports Company of South Africa said they had taken note of the lack of amenities. He said Acsa would monitor the situation.

--------------------

Further investigation by me (Rob) reveals that RSA required index fingerprint of everyone importing firearms. BTW, I had 2 hunters in that mess. I called them this morning and they said it wasn't all bad, but they wish they'd have known to put folding chairs in their carry-ons.

Well, it could be worse. Austrailia is tougher to get into with your own guns for hunting. Now that hunting is legal in Iran for foreigners, I wonder how tough it is getting in and out of there with firearms?!? I think I would leave my TRG at home for that trip!

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 15:49:09 (ZULU)

Email in my inbox this morning from the director of PHASA (Professional Hunter's Association of South Africa)

New Requirements from 1 July 2004

Temporary Importation of Firearms into South Africa

Further our release of 25 June with regard to the above, the current situation is the following:

With the implementation of the new Regulations to the Firearms Control Act of 2000 today, 1 July 2004, there are changes to the process for clients involving the temporary import of firearms for hunting purposes into South Africa as well as for in-transit permits. Please make sure that you read and take note of the following important information.

Foreign Hunting Clients are regarded as very important to South Africa and can be reassured that the South African Police Service (SAPS) will act as reasonably as possible in the implementation of the new requirements of the Firearm Control Act and Regulations from today, 1 July 2004, having a transitional period where the old Act will be phased out and the new Act implemented. During this period the requirements of the old Act (as have been in force for the past several years) will be adhered to, together with completion of the applicable sections of the new SAP520 Application Form (available on arrival), as well as finger prints of the index finger for identification purposes.

With the change over, and it being the busiest time of the hunting season, clients need to be aware that the processing time may take longer than normal but to please have patience as the Police are working to streamline the process.

At the same time, PHASA is busy working with the SAPS to ascertain the requirements that will be phased in under the new Regulations and once we have these confirmed we will email them as well as post them on the PHASA website. In the meantime, as noted above, the old requirements still apply and we will appreciate you advising your members/clients/readers of the situation.

Gary Davies

Chief Executive Director

Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA)

Tel: 27 12 667 2048

Fax: 27 12 667 2049

Email: phasa@pixie.co.za or info@phasa.co.za

www.professionalhunters.co.za

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 15:55:02 (ZULU)

A thought for July 4th:

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

- Samuel Adams, 1722 - 1803

It's a good day to remember that those who signed the Declaration of Independence risked everything to do so. It's an appropriate day for gratitude.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 17:10:55 (ZULU)

re. Savage sux

The only time I ever have extraction problems is after neck sizing my brass 2 0r 3 times, if the chamber is fouled they get a little sticky. I hit the chanber with a brush and problem solved, and I know its time to full length size that batch of brass.

Considering my Savage will print groups considerably smaller than many of them custom sticks at a fraction of the cost I cant complain (I pd under $450 fr my 300win mag) . There is a very major tactical rifle maker (shall remain unnamed ) who posts groups made by thier rifles on thier website, last time I looked none were better than what my Savage will do consistantly. I only wish I was good enough to fully utilize its potential in the field.

The only major flaw I have found in the Savage tactical rifle is the fore end is way too flimsey, for $200 bucks you can remedy that with a stock from Sharp shooter Supply. I am thinking Mcmillan A-5 for mine thanks to Sarge ;) . In summary for those who can afford excorbitant amounts of money for the bells and whistles on the latest status symbol, whose main purpose is interesting range conversation , more power to ya. As a working man I believe beauty is as beauty does, and my Savage does just fine!

Demo

If the secret to which you allude is what I think , methinks its not that big a secret to those of us who have been here a while and are familiar with your posts. Never the less I'll never say what many of us know.. Good luck and God bless you...Its because of guys like you that we hold our heads a little higher on this day, and proudly proclaim ourselves as AMERICANS...

re. Religeon

This is not the place to debate our beliefs or disbeliefs. I will not minimize any one elses opinions. Yet I cant help but state my thoughts on the subject this one time.Any further discussion can be continued by e-mail.

I was raised agnostic (non believer). During the course of studying the Bible and history in order to better argue with Christians, I became quite convinced that the Bible is true. Mostly due to the many outlandish prophesies from thousands of years ago that have come true in the last century (ie the jews returning to Israel and now many of the lost tribes showing up and returning to Israel).

I am stumped as to what forces of nature could conspire to cause primordial slime to evolve into a creature able to create a Thermal neuclear weapon, or a Space shuttle. What forces of nature would cause a dog to gladly give his life in defence of his master even though they are different species and this goes against the first rule of evolution SURVIVAL! What force of nature would create a horse a creature obviously singularly created to carry men! Why is it that some horses despite many grevious wounds developed a love of warfare and killed men on the battle field long after thier rider had fallen rather than flee the scene? Ever heard the quote "a horse a horse my kingdom for a horse!" The bible itself makes mention of this (I am forced to paraphrase due too a piss poor memory) "who made the horse that will fly into battle his nostrils flaring while men draw back in fear" .

There is much in the Bible that preachers will never preach. Believe what you will but do yourselves the courtesy of reading it before making your decision. If you look to other men for your opinion rather than Gods word then you are likely to err. Christians are generally the biggest impediment to the spread of christianity.

Regardless of how you believe thank God (or whatever LOL) that we live in a place where we are free to choose. Oh yeah and thank those brave men and women who put thier lives on the line to keep it that way.

Robert Adcock
Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 19:32:57 (ZULU)

Happy Independence Day to all of you and a heartfelt "Thank You" to those who made it possible for us to have it and to keep it.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The hot & muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 20:21:28 (ZULU)

Robert,

Me thinks a boycott of theCommies in SA, needs to be implemented asap..........

Screw them.( Hunt somehwere else).

Fella's, if we( all shooters) do not start making some serious waves..........we are doomed.......and I do mean

doomed.

Hate to be negative on this very SPECIAL day....... ):

But, it appears, at this time we are headed to another repeat of Bush Sr./Clinton, in '04........

This time, we are even worse off if we get Kerry.

( God forbid, whoda' thunk it pssible??????).

His war chest is above 180 million and climbing.

The American public is dead even on Bush v.s. Kerry.......because of the lies fomented against him( over the WOMD in Iraq).......

Of course, no media outlet I have SEEN is also running the piece about the U.N. finding out, that Iraq DID indeed have them, just shipped them out prior to the start of the War.......

Wanna take bet's, you/we do not see it??.

I suggest if you are short on anything weapons related, you stock up now........there will be a "BlueLight Special coming, as the day approaches...........and it's coming fast.

Two Shoes
Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 21:09:15 (ZULU)

Just got back from the range again, shooting the Savage after removing the stock and adjusting the trigger pull. Wanted to see if I buggered anything up. If Savages suck, I'll take my sucky Savage any time. One hole groups at 100 are becoming boringly common. Hot, cold, fouled or clean, it seems to shoot the same, it's not picky. It's the same as the Howas.....and cheaper than some. Dirty Steve has a custom stick by a well-known riflemaker, I also will not name any names, but the el cheapo Savage shoots neck and neck with it. For $2700 less. No extraction problems at all. The stock is a bit flexy up front, but a bit of Accraglass down the middle takes care of that. I'd be hard pressed to decide which one to grab if the balloon goes up, so I'll just have to throw both in the war wagon. The best thing about the whole day was, my second eldest daughter has been bugging me to take her shooting, and she was keeping them in the 8-ring at 200 with the AR. Girls.....gotta love them. Erin, who graduates from Basic Thursday, qualified Expert first time out. I'll be going down to Badlands Friday morning from Missouri for the weekend, get the new Savage doped out to 1k. See ya....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, July 4, 2004, at 23:52:45 (ZULU)

Two Shoes,

Actually, the hardest country for a foreigner to hunt insofaras paperwork, permits, etc is the good ole US of A. I love hunting RSA, been doing it for years and I'm not about to stop. I have racked up about 500 bucks in phone bills this weekend trying to sort out all of this bs, and I've decided it's not as bad as it seems for Americans. It would suck to live there, but at least they did not take away the right for a South Afrrican citizen to legally own firearms. It' as hard to get a gun there as it is in Jersey, permit must be issued before purchase. RSA knows that a significant portion of their economy comes from American and European hunters, so I think our industry is safe there for a bit. I'm sure that RSA has seen the sharp decline in the economy of Zimbabwe due to govt corruption and the near fall of legal hunting there, and they aren't willing to cut their own throats just yet.

Pete,

Lazy bastage! Another thought, you could look for a canteliever type rail that attaches like a quarter rib and lays back over the action. Saw one on a Higgins a few years back, sweet setup. The guy only wanted to drill and tap the barrel so he wouldn't screw up the crest and upper proofs. The rail came back to the rear mag hump and fastened in the rear sight holes. Seems like that would be an easy mod. Yet another thought-does the rear bridge have enough steel in it to sqaure cut like a BRNO or Dakota? If you send me all the specs, bridge heights from centerline, length, etc. maybe I could machine up something for you that would be low enough. Parting shot-what the hell you need a scope rail on a piggy gun for anyhoo? That damn nine three won't go far enough to use a scope! You shoulda built a 375-that way you could hunt bunnies with it as well;)

Rob

Robert Martin
Monday, July 5, 2004, at 00:15:22 (ZULU)

I had a small hand full of 80 gr. SMKs I wanted to try in my 1 in 9" Stealth. I loaded them according to the Sierra No. 5 loading manuel. They seemed VERY light. I had some 2" groups, 3 touching, 2 touching a coupla inches away... I also had some HORRIBLE groups.

I know they aren't supposed to stabilize in less than 1 in 8", but I feel they might shoot a little better if a little faster.

Thoughts?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, July 5, 2004, at 01:32:26 (ZULU)

I was asked what does it mean to have your gun blueprinted. I couldn't answer it. I assume it's a performance grading or something but have no idea?

Tried the .300 SAUM today at 1 thousand yards. Using nothing special and new unfired brass the SAUM shot 5.75" 5.75" 6." and 10" when the wind was manageable. There was also a 20" horizontal string as the wind reminded us who is real Boss of the Plains. Remington has something going here. I've not read many accounts on this one. IT has a shoulder moving but very manageable recoil that I like along with a low frequency report that doesn't blow your sinus apart. The Sendero is factory flutted stainless barrel. Shooting 168 MK at 2950 fps. The nice thing is that it doesn't have much copper wash (none I could detect) and the Steyr shooting right beside it wouldn't quite stay with it in the accuracy department but the shooter was closer to the 3" Orange dot most of the time due to my unfamilarity with the wind drift of this weapon although his groups were 10% larger for the most part and that rifle is a hell of a shooter as is the marksman that was shooting it. Not quite a 300 WM and a lot less than the 300Ultra Mag. (long) it is just something that Goldilocks would say was "Just Right".

Larry ;I never could get those 80 grainers to do what they were supposed too. 68 was as high as I could get good groups with in my Wilson 1 in 8 barrel. I wish I could help more than that.

Two Shoes' I fear you're right my friend. Scares hell out of me.

Brogers
Monday, July 5, 2004, at 04:32:01 (ZULU)

Hey, GUYS! Forgot to mention, the other day, at a gun show here in Wichita, there was a guy selling a PSG-1 for $10,000! Said the manufacturer is trying to buy back all of the privately owned ones left of the 1,000 imported. Wish to hell I coulda reached into my hip pocket for that one! Anyways, I'm still looking for a cheap harris bipod for my mauser '98, and maybe a good deal on a hogue stock for the same. Money's tight around here.

Spurrit
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Monday, July 5, 2004, at 05:54:50 (ZULU)

Well guys , boycotting south africa for hunting would just be playing into the hands of the anti's, butb the damn law makers need to be made aware of the importance of hunting tourism to the rural/ wilderness areas of the world. what we should do is all book a trip to south africa and flood thier system. So i wonder what the statistics are on the amount of visiting hunters firearms that are used in crime of terrorism?? well i bet its a bit zilch, zero nada,, hell if i was in autority in south africa i would be less worried about a few thousand hunters coming in through controlled points every year than i would be about the vast expanses of my borders and the smuggling, poaching and gun running that traffics across these borders. seems to me again that the law makers just do not want to actualy do anything about crime and violence, they are happy to sit smug because they have made it harder for law abiding good gun owning folks to go about thier daily wage earning activities or hobbies, but at the same time done nothing once again to combat crime in any way what so ever,, we need top protest, to march, so be heared, we need media coverage.. but who am i preachinmg to.

Rob, i know i'm lazy, i guess i'll just have to get on the milling machine again,, i bought another mauser 98 based sporter, one of the zastava things, yesterday in 7x57, everything but the stock for very little money, oh, i just happen to have a stock.. should be a nice little earner. I want to be able to mount me PMII Schmidty on the piggy gun, 9.3x62, moderated and thumping pigs at 300m should be fun, make a good elk or larger plains game rifle too.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, July 5, 2004, at 12:32:16 (ZULU)

Springfield Scout / Squad:

Any of you cats got one?

Like it ? Accuracy ? Reliability ?

Am familiar with the scope mounting issues with a 14. What other stuff to be concerned with ?

May have Ron Smith or George build me one up on one of those new LRB receivers. I may or may not ever scope it at all or use a Scout scope like it is intended for.

What about that optics mount of theirs and which stock ? Military fiberglass ?

NOT a sniper rifle, will be humped and bumped and I'll have to take it down to clean it (may have to swim the thing) but still want decent accuracy. Compromise, compromise I know. Do I want to bed the thing or not ?

Sure like those rifles ...

brian k. sain
Monday, July 5, 2004, at 15:49:20 (ZULU)

Religion,

>Gabriel came to the Lord and said, "I have to talk to you. We have some Texans up here who are causing problems. They're swinging on the pearly gates, my horn is missing, barbecue sauce is all over their robes, their dogs are riding in the chariots, and they're wearing baseball caps and cowboy hats instead of their halos. They refuse to keep the stairway to heaven clean. There are watermelon seeds and pig feet bones all over the place. Some of them are walking around with just one wing."

>The Lord said, "Texans are Texans, Gabriel. Heaven is Home to all my children. If you want to know about real problems, call the Devil."

>The Devil answered the phone, "Hello? Damn, hold on a minute."

>The Devil returned to the phone, "O.K., I'm back. What can I do for you?"

>Gabriel replied, "I just want to know what kind of problems you're having down there."

>After about 5 minutes the Devil returned to the phone and said, "I'm back. Now what was the question?"

>Gabriel said, "What kind of problems are you having down there?"

>The Devil said, "Man, I don't believe this ... Hold on."

>This time the Devil was gone 15 minutes. The Devil returned and said , "I'm sorry Gabriel, I can't talk right now. Those damn Texans have put out the fire and are trying to install air conditioning."

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, - Monday, July 5, 2004, at 17:28:33 (ZULU)

Gents,

Still pretty quiet around here. Maybe the BGs respect the 4th of July, eh?

Did get a pop of intel today, something along the lines of specific targeting against certain people...interesting tidbit. So, what is the proper amount of caution to use when you are already borderline paranoid? Heheh.

I introduced my counterpart to this site. He seems to like it here. His flagship riffle is a TRG-42, but he carries a really trick little cut-down M4 over here. It's one of those no-earplugs guns. Nifty shit. Once he introduces hisself, you'll agree---a great man to have around ya if yer in the shit. I knew instantly upon meeting him---"here's my right flank in any situation..." Wired tight folks always stand out somehow.

As for the BGs, we know what they don't: where their intended targets will be on any given moment. Maybe the hunter gets hunted? Well, could happen. Next 48 hours will tell if they are serious or not. We sure as fuck are.

Barron, consider what you said passed on.

Demo

Demo
Monday, July 5, 2004, at 19:34:06 (ZULU)

medicjim, I would highly recommend to you a book called "A case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, I think that's how you spell his name. He was an atheist who set out to prove that Jesus didn't exist, he is now a Christian who travel around talking about his research.

It's a very interesting book to read, not alot of dry stuff at all.

Give it a try and see what you think

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 02:27:59 (ZULU)

Savage- I got a Savage 12FV in .223. Shoots great! Never a problem with extraction except when I used some bunk ammo. Seems the load I got from a friend were a bit sketchy. Seemed to stick in the chamber partially or entirely. Took a few apart and found the specs to be wrong. Bad head spacing and no trim on the throat. Could have been worse than a few stuck rounds. I told him and he said they fired fine from his M-4. I kept 2 and randomly placed in magazine. Guess what? Thats right, 2 jams. I thoroughly abused him verbally then questioned his sanity. In short, check the ammo, check the chamber, check the action.

I saw a post mentioning the Mall Ninjas. Are these guys for real? Tried to explain it to a friend, he thinks I'm off my rocker. What was the site again? I mean, I have a few interesting pieces but I'm far from being a para military mercenary or swat member. I can shoot find and have bruised a few egos of local law enforcement officers, but jumping jesus lizards, these guys seem off the map. If they are some sort af tactical ops, more power to them, but it sounds like a bunch of wanna-be's to me.

As far as God, He's arourd, or IT or whatever. I might be 28 but I seen some amazing s**t! Things I counldn't explain on my best day. Oh Yeah He's there!

Happy Forth of July, The independence of our nation and the 100th birthday of the Banana Split! mmmmm!

Icky The Great
PGH, PA, USA - Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 03:52:03 (ZULU)

Brian K; The scout is accurate as any of the 14's and the mounting of the scope out on the barrel and using long eye relief pretty much negates the scope mount problem and rounds clearning the scope on their way out. The only down side for the LER scopes is their inability to see good at night. Perhaps a lighted reticle or aimpoint out there on the barrel would fix that situation. If you need magnification and must use it at night, it's bound to cause trouble. I also used a Savage Scout in this manner and it was great as far as accuracy and I was able to shoot tight groups even with the low power optics. The bolt was enlarged and the clip worked quite well compared to most. loading from the top was an option also due to the absence of the scope above the ejection port. At night though... I was blind. Aimpoints are good but forward signature looking into sunlight at dawn and dusk results in a red reflection that another sniper would love to have to shoot at. Most of the new Military sights have cured that problem I'm told. C-Gog perhaps?

Brogers
Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 04:31:03 (ZULU)

If anyone could help not looking for to much detail.

What weapons would a Task Force 121 operative have available to him? From knives, pistol/revolver, automatic weapons and scoped gun? What is issued as standard, before they are allowed to choose their own and what other equipment do you think they would carry? Comms, night vision, laser-targeting etc? I have said most likely what is issued to the marines and delta forces, but know I will be corrected. Helping someone with a book hit me off line use the roster address.

Dry
Uk - Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 11:45:45 (ZULU)

So, when the time comes, how hard is it to rebarrel a Howa?

Any scope mount issues?

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 13:22:40 (ZULU)

BILL: Was thinking maybe a new Nightforce 1.4 or 2.5-10.

Low power. Lit reticles. Just dunno though pal.

LRB has the new receiver coming with Pic rail built in. That negates the open sights.

But ... I got high dollar scoped guns if I need 'em.

Aimpoint is looking pretty good. Fast. Mounted low. ARMS or Larue quick detach and I got my irons back. Won't be a sniper rifle per sey. May carry it on warrants and everyday work. Can think of worse to have.

Dunno yet ...

brian k. sain
Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 19:49:41 (ZULU)

Chuck Hunt, On your Savage

I have two of them. One in 308 and the other in 223. They are both FP10 Tactical. They also are VERY ACCURATE. I went out yesterday and shot the 308. It will shoot 1/2 moa or better at 100 yards. These two rifles are KEEPERS. Enjoy your Savage.

SFC Pete Carpentier jr TXNG
C.C., TX, - Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 22:13:25 (ZULU)

Damn...

I just came up for air, and God-da is on the platter :))

I haven't been this busy in twenty years. The court case is lookin' good - she is stallin' and so Ruggus Rattus won't get into a new school this Sept... it'll probably be mid winter before this thing is over :((

The walk-in safe is done, and I've moved most of the guns - this weekend I'm moving the loading machings, work benches, milling machine and drill presses.

I've been workin' on the airboat a few hours each weekend, and it's comin' along real great. I'm now pretty knowledgable on 4 cylinder Lycomings, having installed a lot of upgrade stuff. Mang, talk about an expensive toy... the price of airplane engine parts will make shooting look cheap!! Set of spark plug wires $175, Spin-on oil filter adaptor $490, starter motor $525, Spark plugs $20 to $28 E-A-C-H, and the damn thang uses two plugs for each cylinder :(((

But it's still a kick and I'm looking forward to getting it wet this fall.

Yote bate...

The phrase "Blue printing" a rifle is a slang term stole from race car guys (who DO blue print engines)... but you can't blue print a rifle. It really means that the action has been pulled apart, and the bolt face has been cleaned up and trued, the rails, bolt lugs and action faces have been lapped, and the action face has been trued in a lathe, and maybe the barrel threads have been re-cut. On actions that are sloppy, it may mean setting back the bolt, setting back and re-welding the bolt handle and re-headspacing the whole rig (not worth it!!).

Do any of youz guys in the south Florida area know where "Frog City" is? It's a few miles west of the dog-leg on the Tamiami. If you go past there sometimes, could you do me a favor... if so, please drop me an e-mail.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 00:17:49 (ZULU)

Fellas,

Short post, but...

1. There is an important Senate bill pertaining to Class Action lawsuits coming up, possibly tomorrow.

2. Rumor also has it that the dishonorable Senator from Commiefornia, Diane Fienstien, has indicated to her gun control cronies that she may try to attach an AWB renewal amendment to this bill.

3. On my local news tonight, Kerry and Edwards have cancelled a very big fund raising event scheduled for tomorrow in my area.

4. Despite the fact that WI is a hotly contested state, campaign representatives refused to indicate the reason for the cancellation or when the event may be rescheduled.

While this bill is no doubt very important to Mr. Edwards (a trial lawyer), the fact that the campaign isn't talking is a big indicator. I am thinking the balloon goes up on the AWB bullshit in the next 24 hours, and Kerry/Edwards are going to try and run the AWB right up GWB's ass.

If you haven't now is the time to contact as many senators as you can, along with Dubya and his staff. Don't forget to hit up the media as well, they are complicit in the spreading of lies and if they start getting a picture that we aren't buying it, it may help.

Continue the good fight fellas!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 02:19:03 (ZULU)

Good to see you 'Lito! Glad to hear the scales of justice are creaking!

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 02:25:21 (ZULU)

LItosan; Thanks for the info. The thing caught me by surprise. Never heard it called that before. Hope all goes well at the court house my man. Bet he's grown double since the last picture I had. Airboat my goodenenness. There's nothing you won't tackle. Stay current with us OM. You're sorely missed around here.

Brian; Aimpoint never let me down is all I can say. I was real reluctant to even try the battery driven beggars but there's none their equal in that line of sights.

Geoff; Thanks for the alert! I'd bet your right about that cancellation!

4's:Howa's ;rebarrel pretty much the same as the others. The Weatherby Vangard is the same gun of years back. (Howa has improved some things in late models.)

Brogers
Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 02:36:10 (ZULU)

>>>Do any of youz guys in the south Florida area know where "Frog City" is? It's a few miles west of the dog-leg on the Tamiami. If you go past there sometimes, could you do me a favor... if so, please drop me an e-mail.<<<

'lito, I sent you an email at >>condor at mags dot net<< but it got bounced by your host server.

Is that the right address?

Write me at mjmensale at aol dot com. I may be able to help you out.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 03:12:52 (ZULU)

Titan, you still monitoring the Roster? I went back to do an archive search on your 165 Nosler BTs thru a 24" AR-10T...did you ever do the 180 grainer test?

Brian, an M14 with Aimpoint is a fast mamma-jamma. Balances way better than my nose-heavy 10T with Art's Sniperx rail system. Aimpoint M2 or ML2s are quick, and battery life is really good (even for Doofuses like me who don't check and turn the dang things off after having them brush against vest and body armor, leaving the things on all day). The Scout mounting block looks goofy, but fits OK (that's about all I can say about it -- a little far forward, but more secure and lower than anything else, and a whole lot cheaper than the Knight rail system). You can get M14s from the Army through Homeland Defense (Kentucky's Highway Patrol even had theirs re-done and formed a service rifle competition team). If you wait 'til September you can have a full-railed AR-10T carbine with M14 profile barrel and M4 collapsing butt.

Glad to see you're still around, 'Lito, peteR.

Amazing the reach of the 'net. Had some Filipino shooters walk up to me and introduced themselves at SHOT.

Kevin -- hey, bud, you ever gonna post something else on that '10 and its performance out west, or you just gonna tease and run? Congrats on Andy's grad!

George, that rack of AR-10s looked NICE! We have one coming back from Afghanistan at end of July rotation. Got two more suppressors for eval when we get some time. Not enough hours in a day.

AMU is building 240 flat-top M16 Designated Marksman Rifles for the Regular (leg) Army. Daniel Defense 12.0 rail systems (steel barrel nut), Knight trigger, Douglas stainless 1-8 barrels, Harris S-L bipod. Issued with 500 rounds of 77s. Allahu Akhbar.

We deliver six prototype M1911A2 pistols to USASOC on 22 July. Integral light rails and suppressors.

Good hunting, Joe.

Leaving for the big summer trip next week (practice is highly over-rated...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it). Bragg, Quantico, Perry. Lot of the service shooters are off doing other things (no surprise).

Sinister
Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 03:48:26 (ZULU)

Guys, just ordered a new bi-pod off of sportsmansguide.com for $25! I'm not familiar w/brand, but looks solid; will advise. Well, it's a quarter after 3 in the a.m. here, gonna go show Wile E. Coyote that the roadrunner ain't the only one that'll stomp his ass!

Spurrit
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 08:29:01 (ZULU)

Spurrit...

A $25 bipod?

You get what you pay for (IF you are lucky).

If it's the "New Generation Universal Bipod with Extra Adapter", you ain't lucky.

Moe...

Lemme know if you got my e-mail.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 10:37:50 (ZULU)

'Lito,

email, roster, n/a.

Brian,

ML2 is the way to go, for what I think you're wantin to do??

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 12:24:58 (ZULU)

Sinister: I have a MGSS Jet titanium suppressor for my AI .308. It's quiet, lightweight, and of all-welded construction. Aside from the weight reduction, the titanium transfers heat more rapidly than steel. My rifle is more accurate with the can on it, and of course it greatly reduces the recoil. It's one you might wish to consider.

Click on my name for the link to their web site. Ignore the pretty woman on the page. :-)

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 12:45:50 (ZULU)

Guys, thanks to those that responded to my request for info on High Angle rescue, much appreciated.

I hope everyone had a happy Independence Day.

Keith

Keith
Northcentral, WV, - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 13:05:43 (ZULU)

>>Click on my name for the link to their (Jets Suppressors) web site. Ignore the pretty woman on the page. :-)<<

Ignore her? Nothing like a pretty woman who knows the proper way to hold your weapon's fore end! <G>

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 13:09:32 (ZULU)

My favorite - red head with a rifle - and she's already in bed to boot!

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 15:48:27 (ZULU)

The founding fathers knew....

http://members.cox.net/classicweb/Heroes/heroes.htm

Gerry

Gerry
Newberg, OR, USA - Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 18:55:15 (ZULU)

Bolt - email sent on the LE Hazmat suit question...no attachment

medicjim
Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 20:30:06 (ZULU)

Gents,

Intel had it wrong, at least on the days they are looking. No bad guys waiting for us at our waiting-for-them spot. Oh, well.

On the suppressor thread: Me and the squid scored a Tabuk a few hours ago (it's a 7.62x39mm version of an SVD, of local manufacture for those wondering WTF)--and lo' and behold---the AK Can fits right on her! Yihaa. Quiet goes the night...and perhaps so to goes the "dog problem" when nothing else exciting is happening. Damn dawgs look more like Hyennas than any mutt I've seen, and they're bad for ya too. Vectors.

Tomorrow, we'll try to arrive at some optics. Horse tradin' here and there--never know what'll show up on yer door. Same-same optics as the SVD...should be easy enough.

Dry--you ask some questions that beg for a vague response. Knives are very much a personal preference--the most common thread is bench-made autos, but only due to the CL IX system picking them up. But even so, there are as many different knives as there are people in some groups. As for guns, if it ain't an M16 variant (and I did not say it wasn't)---wouldn't that then be a signature item for the bad guys? I sure hope that isn't the kind of details you'd put in a book. Not while the game is on, at any rate.

Man, there are some weird-ass noises coming over the wire tonight. Hold on...

Ahhh, the radio is breaking squelsh...apparently some arab-looking males just abandonded a vehicle off the wire in another sector and they are moving some Brads to go check it out. It's a bit late for a VBIED, but who knows? Maybe some morons picked a really bad place for a morning ambush? Heheheh. Other than that, it is just flares pretty much all around as usual. Much, much prefereable to the 122mm alternative. Especially for those poor SOBs in the center.

Someone set me straight on 7.62x39mm flavors:

Black tip bullet is AP?

Plain is plain?

Red ring just above the case neck is ???

Green tip is tracer?

I know the 14.5 blacktip is AP, so I'm sure on that...and plain is just ball and great gobs of it everywhere over here...but this other stuff, dunno.

Demo

Demo
Wednesday, July 7, 2004, at 21:01:30 (ZULU)

Gents:

Got an interesting call from a man claiming to be a Gunny from Pendleton. Said he bought one of my "cards" at a gun show from "Bob's Guns" for $29.95, but that's all he got.........just the slider, no outer case, no manual.

I told him he got screwed. He had already figured this out.

He wanted to know if I was going to "stand behind my product" and send him the missing parts.

I asked him if he bought a car from a dealer with one wheel, would he expect the manufacturer to replace the other three?

He said he would never buy a car with one wheel. I said, "You just did, now go back and get your $30 back from the gun store, and I'll sell you one for the same price I sell to the Army."

Whole thing was hinky, because he said he had no Internet access (on Pendleton????), but he was able to quote the trademarked "... a direct path to firing solutions" on the top of the jacket that he did not have.

Folks, if you get one of my gizmos you get a slide rule (outer sleeve, inner slide) and a manual.

What's frustrating about this is that I have sent over 100 samples to Pendleton over the years. Every time a sniper instructor rotated in, I got hit up for a fresh batch. No one knew where the previous items were.

I got sick of it (if I don't have revenue, I can't produce the item) and de-railed the gravy train.

Got a call a month ago from some gal with a heavy Asian accent in Purchasing at Pendleton asking for quotes and delivery times. Gave her the same quote I give Army, Navy, FBI, you name it. She said a P.O. was on its way. I ship within 24 hrs. of receipt, but I know the paperwork takes some time.

30 June I get a call from an irate Marine wanting to know where his order is, supposed to be there that day. I politely informed him that I had never received an order. He hung up without delving further into the matter, and hopefully marched into Purchasing to deliver a well-deserved thrashing.

Bad thing is, I haven't heard back, and we got a Gunny who (purportedly) got ripped off at a gunshow. We got Marines from all over buying these things out of their paychecks.

Anybody got some pull with Purchasing at Pendleton? Have them call me.

I pay the freight.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 00:03:04 (ZULU)

Hey, Y'all!

My last post on religion...

Eccl. 1:6

See what God put on earth to keep riflemen humble.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 04:24:06 (ZULU)

Guys,

Could you give me a summary of the " F Class Rules" or a place to find the INFO.?

Fatboy, maybe you could help me out with this question, what is allowed to use to steady your rifle ( Sand bag,REAR, Bi-Pod or Ruck Sack?)...............? And whatever else is allowed?

John A.,

What is going on, E-Mail inbound!

Thanks for your time,

C.L.

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A. !!!! - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 05:59:44 (ZULU)

Gents,

Please post Bearman's answers on the DR---inquiring minds want to know!

Squid is a lurker so far....reading the archives (always a good idea before jumping into the fray). BTW, he sitting right here in our "team room" surfing .338 info. We got a couple of missions to run yet today along with the horse trading. Other than the proximity to the wire, this place rocks. Well, the proximity rocks too; keeps us on our toes. Can't go to breakfast without crossing a danger area...

Demo

Demo
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 08:45:44 (ZULU)

Demo, B'man,

I don't know squat bout F class but the AP is black, red/green is tracer(color of tip should be color of trace) and white is imcendiary. Some of the red may be A/P with trace. The older the ammo the higher the failure rate as well on the trace.

Watch ur 6

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 10:54:22 (ZULU)

F-Class

A short overview from the U.S. Team Captain

http://www.sierrabullets.com/competition/riflecompetitions.cfm?fuseaction=fclass

copy or click on my nom de plume

xshooter
sinus Valley, ohio, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 11:26:08 (ZULU)

F-Class again

Scroll down to the F-Class section

http://www.long-range.com/forums/

Info on the First U.S. National Match

http://www.usfclass.com/1stFclassNationals.htm

U.S. Team webpage

http://www.usfclass.com/

xshooter
sinus Valley, ohio, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 11:41:21 (ZULU)

Bearman asked,

"What is allowed to use to steady your rifle ( Sand bag,REAR, Bi-Pod or Ruck Sack?)...............? And whatever else is allowed?"

The current standard is this;

There will be two classes recognized: F-Class Open with a 10kg (22 pound) weight limit and F/TR (F-Class/Target Rifle) with is restricted to .223Rem. and .308Win. caliber rifles fired off of bipods, with a 18.15 pound weight limit or 16 pound weight limit if a front rest is used. A rear rest (sandbag or sock) is permitted if wanted.

Some ranges/match directors aren't as caliber restrictive. I think the Spirit of America match in Raton still allows calibers up to .32 in TR Class

TR shooters usually use a bipod and bag of some sort (mechanical rear rests arn't kosher even for 'open' class.

There is still some controversy regarding the rules as the NRA has not formally adopted them yet. The following thread is a discussion of some options.

http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2652

xshooter
sinus valley, ohio, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 12:19:42 (ZULU)

Demo,

If you had someone setup as a counter-sniper in your AO, what range and shooting conditions (wind, mirage, backstop) would he need to cover? What weapon characteristics would be ideal for the role... (weigh the value of.... rapid second shot vs flat trajectory vs lethality vs anything else you might come up with).....

Does a GPMG fully cover the need?

Obviously, if any of this would compromise friendly lives.....leave it out of your answer...we can guess.

medicjim
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 16:03:46 (ZULU)

DEMO: If you and the Squid are slotted snipers gimme a yell.

BK Sain

www.adoptasniper.com

brian k. sain
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 18:23:34 (ZULU)

The scope on the groups mentioned last weekend were ALL shot with Sheperd scopes. (I had a skeptical inquiry by off line e-mail. )

Average group size for (9) 3 shot groups that day was 8.27". Two guns were used SSG .308 and Remington SAUM. All bullets were 168 grain match kings and loads were VARGET. Distance was 1000 yards and wind was 2 to 3 mph except for the last 20" group in about 8mph gusty wind. Yes there was a witness.. and skeptics can KMA. Thank you very much.

Brogers
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 18:39:17 (ZULU)

Project Hacksaw

I posted last week about buying a 22-250 Savage and getting it re-barrelled in 308 (thanks to everybody who commented on that). Well, I was too late and the Savage was sold, BUT… I did manage to swap my Mossberg shotgun for a 308 Ruger VT. I’m kinda happy bunny, as it was a straight swap - so the Ruger has cost me nothing.

I guess I’ve been spoilt by shooting 223 for so long as my shoulder was sore the next day, and this was only after 50rds of 308!

One of my shooting buddies is the editor of a UK shooting magazine, and we’ve come up with ‘project hacksaw’.

The Ruger will be shot for group and velocity with its factory 26” barrel, then its out with the trusty hacksaw, cut an inch off the barrel, reface and recrown it then shoot for group and velocity again. This will be repeated until the barrel is cut to 20”. Then a muzzle brake will be fitted – just because I fancy a 20” braked rifle.

Anybody interested in the results, or has this all been done before?

On a separate note, is 308 really a big advantage over 223? (I’m punching paper, not hunting or ‘other duties’). I’ve actually very little experience with 308, and I realise that a 175 SMK will buck the wind better than a 69 SMK, but how does is compare to a sexy 223 load? (for example an 80gn VLD).

I know that with a 223 I can concentrate on the shot, whereas with 308 in the back of my mind I’m thinking “this is going to smack me in the shoulder something rotten”

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 19:45:03 (ZULU)

For all those able to get a copy of the latest US shooting magasine, great article on F-Class this month and there are to be two more followup articles in the nest two months.

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC, USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 19:59:39 (ZULU)

Brian, neither of us are "slotted"...me, too old and "senior" to be there anymore--he will be but not yet. We are, however, prepared to act as such in contigencies. Local security is our mission; and it could entail about anything from band aids for local workers to working CAS at danger close distance and everything in between. Our dedicated shooters are elsewhere, having fun, and extremely well equiped. Keep reaching those kids you are finding; they need what you bring---and they are grateful as hell. I'll pass that URL to the local snipers (nat'l guard and active). Me and squid have the lattitude to assemble what we need on the spot, and we aren't bad off either. Pretty much get whatever we decide we need. The non-mil folks are good people (in fact, turns out I know a shitload of 'em)--and that is how we "get by." Heheh--until we made some contacts---we did feel a bit lonely though. We`are far from home with not much in-house support. But, in this kind of unit it is expected you "take care of yourself" and as it turns out---we are damn good at doing just that. Heheh. Maybe someday I'll post how good we are. Let's just say we have more triggers than trigger fingers, including all our young support type dudes. And arty could be an internal asset if it got hairy enough. Double ha.

MedicJim, On average the "perimeter teams" here work from elevations out to about 500 yards. There are positions with much more reach, but averages at 500. The M24s are in abundance for these folks. Mirage, oddly, isn't too bad yet; the winds are west-NW at about 15-20 Kts by afternoon, dying off into the night and staying full lull til mid-morning and it depends on which side of the box you are working as to the value. All will shoot their sectors at some point using some of the garbage as targets. Lots of rounds outgoing this location all the time--so they just blend in. Those outbounds include 155s, too. They tend to wake you up. Ha. As for weapons, anything accurate works today along the wire. One time targets of opportunity, an odd dude carrying an AK or other hostile "things." Base defense is a static venture. Mortar hunter/ killer teams would prefer a semi--as would teams moving into BUAs, but these mortar crews stay well clear of the perimeter. It is two different profiles, and the teams are dedicated to each mission (the army gets it right once and a while). In other words, the outer guys are always out and about when they have a mission, while the inner guys have a given sector of the wire to learn all to themselves. No "hey you" shit; they get to know their respective TTPs and terrain, and work it exclusively. As for the mirage, I'll let ya know in a few days how bad it might get---it just started to get seasonally hot here. It has been pretty mild, although the kids who haven't seen a summer here yet would disagree. And, the vegatation is surprisingly thick all around. Baghdad and the northern areas are green as hell. That blew my mind more than anything else, all the green.

It is a bit more "active" tonight. Two IEDs, and a bunch of counter battery. All that before Tattoo.

Demo

Demo
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 20:15:02 (ZULU)

Gents,

Been trying to think of how to describe this locale without tipping off anyone or anything. Paint a picture of isolation without painting a sector sketch for the bad guys---here goes:

The nearest army unit is about 2 miles distant, main base is two beyond that. Four farm houses, several out buildings, fields of grass and palm and two towers are within small arms range. A highway runs less than a click on our flank. We are outside of the inner security belts, meaning retreat is as bad as anything else, but we are inside the outer belts, which is something at least. Heheh. Our other flank is held by ICDC, about 3 miles the other way (did I say held? my bad--it is occupied by them). If they hit, we have 2-3 minutes to form a defense, IMHO. Beyond that, you'll fight from the quarters. Kinda like house to house---not good here. Optimistically, we just hold for 20-30 minutes and get some Brads along. Providing of course, the radio is held. Me and the squid are the only "operators" or even combat arms types up here. One guy is almost---regiment comms forever and handy with a carbine---and his three clowns have had a shitload of rangetime...but there it ends.

So, if I sound a bit melodramatic about the tension....now ya know. Oddly, I like it here. Challenges, good solid kids who want to learn...

I wonder if the wife will allow a second tour next spring?

Demo
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 20:35:53 (ZULU)

Gents and Ladies *first term used loosely please note,

Saw a half decent deal on the Springfield Sar-8 a short time ago. Its a US manf. dont know a whole lot about these other than they'r HK copies from what i remember or was told. Anyone own one or used to likes dislikes....before i hear to much i know the M1a's are better but was trying to save a lil $$. Thanks for any help.

And thanks as always to those who are serving the country home or abroad.

One last note...got a slight used 6.5-20 leupy vIII if anyones looking for one i'd like to get sold.

Marc
USA - Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 20:53:07 (ZULU)

Demo: check roger that. Thanks. Please pass the word to the kids you see.

FYI: My little band of merry marauders is currently supporting 42 PLATOONS of US Army, USMC and 1 Platoon of FROGS.

Looks like we will have a booth at the SHOT SHOW so come by and say hello. In the lobby near the US Shooting Team.

brian k. sain
Thursday, July 8, 2004, at 22:29:47 (ZULU)

SteveA - Project Hacksaw,

You might what to take a look at this information before you start.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

Then decide if you still what to take the exercise.

Later,

Byron
CA, USA - Friday, July 9, 2004, at 04:47:09 (ZULU)

Byron' your article by Hawks is very good basic information. I have the nasty reputation for cutting barrels off but it's easy to assume that I cut everything. The points about magnums are very valid. The legend that long barrels shoot more accurate than short ones is just a legend with no fact unless you want to consider wind as a disrupting factor. The heavier weight of a rifle does help in some cases with the tendency of a body to stay at rest entering somewhere in the equation but the other half of the law also enters the picture (body to stay in motion)in the form of taking more muscle to stop a movement.

The point of diminishing returns (by adding weight) is reached very quickly when a rifle has to be aimed from standing off hand.

Basically we mostly shoot from prone or rest of some kind where accuracy has more to do with leverage against a bi-pod and sand bag set up or rear hand support than rifle weight. Off hand is another matter but when weight becomes leverage against the shooter causing muscle strain it works against the shooter in most cases although it tends to make him think he is steadier in the free position than light weight so called mountain rifles. Technique becomes the factor that controls where the bullet goes. Especially that of breathing and support leverage. Recoil is another major factor in barrel length and weight. Most common bull barrels loose about 2lbs when you take off that last 6" and make for better movement by tactical agents and hunters. I personally don't like to go lower than 22" for most rifles except for the light carbines like the Scout configuration or the military short assault rifles. Velocity is very close to what Byron's article says. Recently I decided to give heavy stocks and heavy long barrels a chance to prove themselves. It turned out they didn't. Things such as good rifling and chambering even crowning are much more important than weight and rifle barrel length. However give all other things equal the weight does help when it doesn't hinder in muscle control. I found you can steady the rifle by moving the prone bipod forward in a lot of cases than in lightening the barrel. I've argued with some pretty famous shooters that long barrels often cause more barrel whip than shorter ones and in most cases was shouted down so you can make up your own mind on that one.

Brogers
Friday, July 9, 2004, at 14:04:13 (ZULU)

SteveA- according to an experienced High Master, the .223 has 4 times the windage drift of a .308 at long range. That is, his wind corrections for his shooters were 4X what they'd be for the .308.

Don't overlook the 155 Palma slug if all you're doing is punching paper. Also, GP Maes has the denim military shooting coats for $40-50 USD. Padding in all the right places, takes the aches out of long strings without busting the budget.

WR Moore
Friday, July 9, 2004, at 18:02:53 (ZULU)

Steve,where you been hiding mate?? darn if i was going to take a hacksaw to a ruger i'd start at the reciever end, they provide yellow sacks for recycling junk in germany mate,, shall i sedn you some?

just pulling your leg buddy,, but ive heared about a good riflesmith just starting up in europe and he has some great deals,maybe you should think about geting a custom stick built, Jon B has the details.

Jon B,, shame on you,, going shooting on yer missus birthday..

tut tut tut.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, July 9, 2004, at 19:35:23 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

SteveA don't need a coat, he has reflex here, as in we gets to make loud barrels quiet...If you can't get used to the recoil, 'can it' mang..

SteveA,

1. Don't compare the .223 to the 308 on paper doll groups, find your real potential..the little bullets get the bejesus kicked out of them windage past 400, plus when you get to the wind busters in the 80-90JLK range...If the 223 bog standard twist, you can't shoot much but light bullets thru..to get the 80's to spin you need 7.3-7.7" of twist, for the 90's 6.5"-7.0" twist..sexy(if by sexy you mean heavy bullets) loads mean sexy barrels..We built a 22-250 for my right hand man at work, and yeah, we knock the snot out of rabbits not much bigger than my fist at 550+ yds using 55 grain bullets, and wouldn't be afraid to push to 700+, but we're pushing 3900fps with an option to go 4K plus..That rifle is 1K reliable, but would still shoot a 30 cal for score in a heartbeat. Which may be the route you want to go for a long distance 224 caliber with not much recoil..Or kick up to 6BR for a heavier bullet which doesn't have to go so fast to drive the 107's, but accurate as hell, and lasts a while, doesn't smoke your shoulder..hellamoreaccurate than a 223...

2. Cut 6" off a 26" barreled R$*!ahhh?(uggggh, that word again) hell, cut 26" off and then some, don't forget the bolt, and use the stock to hoist Guy Fawkes this November.......

3. Tell your friend the editor there's a yank up north in Scotland that thinks project hacksaw is a bit redundant, hell I could draw a graph for ya and we'd be done. I know youre doing this to get a 20" barrel with a can for naught, but for god sakes, if the UK gun magazine article writing people would make an attempt to wow us for once.....

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Friday, July 9, 2004, at 19:54:19 (ZULU)

cal. muz vel. bullet path@100zero 10wind vel@1k

6mm-284 3224 100MK -212.5 53.5

.223 2869 80MK -323.5 86.1 1357

7-08 2819 140SP -339.9 89.6 1319

7-08 3004 120SP -309. 90.5 1338

.257WBY 3184 120MK -256. 87.8

.257WBY 3300 117MK -231. 69.6 1621

.270WSM 3790 120MK -211. 57.6 1792

300WM 2883 180MK -286. 68.3 1543

25-06 2902 120 -366. 118.5 1185*

.260(6.5) 2578 140Amax -331. 60.8 1543

25-284 2978 120 -344. 105.3 1218*

25-284 3369 100 -267. 94.4 1346

25-284 3079 117 -298. 80. 1457

6.5-06 2800 140Amax -273. 53.7 1704

6.5-284 2998 140Amax -232. 48.0 1851

6.5-284 2901 120MK -321 87.9 1346

7mm mag. 2848 168MK -293 69.8 1516

7mm mag. 2998 150MK -286 78.1 1455

.308 win 2731 168Amax -316 69.5 1490

.308 win 2731 168MK -347 85.1 1342

.308 win 2690 175MK -336 75.6 1418

.308 win 2661 180Amax -317 62.9 1546

.308 win 2661 180MK -345 77. 1400

.308 win 2536 190MK -370 75.2 1386

.300 SAUM 2830 190MK -287 64.0 1582

.300 SAUM 2850 180MK -298 70.1 1508

.300 SAUM 2850 180Amax -275 57.0 1666

.300 SAUM 2945 175MK -272 66.2 1589

.300 SAUM 2950 168MK -284 75.7 1473

Just some ballistics at 1 thousand yards that are basically comparing different calibers for some newer viewers. YOUR program probably says different.

Here's a quarter!

Brogers
Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 02:02:33 (ZULU)

Bruce, you get me a name and unit and I'll go kick them in the head for you.

A couple local units have been playing with the Chey-tac's and I wouldn't turn one down if offered. It would be something else to play with. Gotta go...new joins to the platoon to go eat pizza and drink beer with. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 02:42:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Brian, just got the run down on where one of my sniper buddies is...

I'll send you his data tomorrow. He's a young SSGT and a true professional. Doing mostly security and interdiction work. Will get more from him and post info to the list that is relevant.

Seems like a great deal of things are interfering with me getting enough trigger time. Am hoping to bid into a job where we work 12 hours three days a week and four days the fourth week. That would leave plenty of time to work on the "honey do" list and get in some practice. My last range session left me, well, unhappy with my performance.

Plan more testing of the Mexlicher .284. Looks like it's going to be a winner.

Have a nice used lathe on hold. My gunsmith buddy got a new one (bigger/better) and needs the extra space in his shop. I came out the winner on this one. Now I can start doing some of my own work. A mill is on my list for the future.

Perhaps, dusting off my 6.5 X .284 will get me fired up...;-)

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 05:11:23 (ZULU)

Wes - when I come away from the range happy with my performance, it is usually because I was wasting my time practicing tasks I already know how to do well. It's better for me to come away unhappy because I was practising stuff that's hard to do. Like shooting offhand. How that David Tubb guy can consistently hit a 2 MOA target offhand amazes me. But I'm working on it. My kneeling position sucks, too.

I think I'm going to get a rifle for shooting smallbore silhouette. It's cheap practice, and looks like fun. My local range has two monthly matches.

Semper Fi.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 13:09:36 (ZULU)

Bearman,

xshooter pulled that info strait from the match bulletin.

If you're shooting open class, which you will be with your 300wm, you can have a front rest. Windage adjustable is allowed. The front rest can be sitting on "t" shaped jig that has 1" spikes to firmly attach the jg to the ground. The front rest can then be srewed to that jig. If you don't use the jig, or shoot on a line that is covered with something other than grass, there are base feet made by sinclairs and others that screw to the bottom of the rest feet. Or, you can mount the rest to a big ass piece of steel. Whatever works. It's pretty much open for anything so long as the front rest anbd rear bag is not ridgidly connected.

For the reaar, a sand bag, rabbit ears or a sand sock all work. I'm fairly certain an actual rest cannot be used on the rear. Only one rest, and it an be used up front, or out back.

No point of the rifle may touch the ground, ever.

The F T/R has changed some what, but xshooter covered that as well. It was origially only to be shot off bipods, and had an 18.1lbs weight limit to allow AW shooters. It has added the ability to use a front rest, but there is a weight penelty of 2+ lbs. I've seen 15lbs in print as well, so anyone shooting 308 or 223 make sure your rifle corresponds to the weight requirments IN THE MATCH BULLETIN.

Sights are open, but I've never seen anyone use irons.

Targets at 600 ayrds will be the SR3 (maybe SR2's) They have a .5MOA X ring and are challenging. We had some of the best in the country at our Championship, and no one cleaned the target. The 1K targets will be standard 1MOA Palma targets. These were cleaned lots, with some decent X counts.

That's pretty much it. It's the same match that you and John shot with us. You should know that you can shoot your 300 from a bipod, but you will still be considered "OPen" class due to the caliber. If you plan on doing this, you might want to also bring a coup;le sand bags just in case. A rolled up blacket, ruck, etc, are also allowed.

Click my name for the match bulletin, and I hope to see some of you there. I haven't shot F in a couple yeras now, but as I run the line at half of our 1K matches, I still am somewhat involved and think the nationals this year will be great.

http://northstateshootingclub.com/pdfs/National%20F_Class%20Program.pdf

FatBoy...

Chris
Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 14:09:30 (ZULU)

On 223 versus 308. On paper to 600 yards the 223 80's are equal to the 168s in 308. My elevation hold is the same. My wind holds are the same. Have not shot the 80s past 600 enough tosay if this holds true all the way out.

I do shoot the 77s a bunch and have done so to 1100 yards. They fly far better than Sierra gives them credit. Not much left at 100 yards but still dings the steel. I know the 77s, I run with the 175 BDC and its good for steel man sized hits with that BDC to 900 yards. After that its a use the mils time.

As we speal my thoughts are if I had to take just one weapon, make hits to 600 yards and have to support myself for a week or so. It would be the AR based 18" SPR, with an MRT 3x9, if I had NVD or the 3.5-10M3 if no NVD.

If its a sniper role I want a 308 or more.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 18:37:42 (ZULU)

From another site:

"Dear Abby,

I am a crack dealer in Beaumont, Texas who has recently been diagnosed as a carrier of the herpes virus. My parents live in Fort Worth and one of my sisters, who lives in Pflugerville, is married to a transvestite.

My father and mother have recently been arrested for growing and selling marijuana. They are financially dependent on my other two sisters, who are prostitutes in Dallas.

I have two brothers; one is currently serving a non-parole life sentence at Huntsville for the murder of a teenage boy in 1994. My other brother is currently in jail awaiting charges of sexual misconduct with his three children.

I have recently become engaged to marry a former prostitute who lives in Longview. She is a part time "working girl".

All things considered, my problem is this. I love my fiancé’ and look forward to bringing her into the family. I certainly want to be totally open and honest with her.

Should I tell her about my cousin who supports John Kerry for President?

Signed,

Worried About My Reputation "

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 19:25:48 (ZULU)

Byron – Brogers has replied far better than I ever could. One thing that article fails to point out though, is that short barrels look totally boss!

WR Moore – thanks for the tip. I’ve picked up some 155’s and I’ll give them a try.

Piggy Pete – where have I been? I’ve been shooting airsoft pistol. I’m back bcause I fancy actually hitting a target further away that 15metres. Typical airsoft accuracy is 1.5”….at 10 yards. Go here for a laugh, I’m the good looking one (middle left).

http://www.eliteairsoftuk.com/frames/team/team.htm

JR – mail inbound

Lindy – if you want to improve your offhand, have you thought about an air rifle? The first ‘serious shooting’ I did was UIT air rifle in the early 80’s, the techniques are the same but the rifles are heavier, you can also practice at home.

Brogers – looking at your ballistics data , it seems like the results of a 308 is not worth all the extra blast and recoil (I’m comparing 80gn vs 175gn). The question should be 223 vs 6.5mm. Just my thoughts.

Flame on!

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 20:18:55 (ZULU)

well swapping the hunting boots for sandals and the rifle for a bucket and spade (and a fishing rod), off on the annual family holiday in the mornin' flying (i hate it) off to Gran Canaria for a 2 week holiday.. apparently the hotel has an internet cafe so i'll be keeping in touch,,

catch you all later .. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 20:42:24 (ZULU)

SteveA: air rifle is something I've considered. Dunno squat about air rifles, though. What might be some good ones? A good trigger and enough weight to get close to a tactical rifle would be good, besides, of course, reasonable accuracy.

I've also heard suggestions that air rifles might recoil differently and hence need a different kind of scope. Any information with respect to that would be appreciated.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 21:50:12 (ZULU)

PeteL - dont think that you are going to find the Beagle on Gran Canaria.

Lindy - typical UIT air rifles will weigh 12-14 lbs, have triggers that weigh less than 6 ounces, and have stocks that are designed for standing use only - not your typcal tactical rifle. BUT......they will teach you correct follow through, if all you have been shooting is center fire rifle you will generally have not a lot of follow through. Because the lock time (from trigger release to pellet exiting the muzzle) is a lot longer than any rim or center fire rifle, you will learn to hold the rifle on target until the pellet has left the muzzle, and that will have great benefits in your standing scores. I did try across the course highpower awhile ago - after 200yd standing I was usually in the top 5-10%. This was because of my background in air weapons, its just like shooting 10M air rifle!! (it all went to sh*t at 300+600yds)

Airgun recoil - yeah, its kinda like a 3-way effect. This is for spring-and-piston rfles only:

1/ Piston compresses air in cylinder and stops (because of column of air in cylinder)

2/ Pellet exits muzzle (very small muzzle blast), piston, now free, hits cylinder end stop

3/ Piston now 'bounces' (think like a car shock absorber)

This 3-way effect will destroy some scopes (designed only for 'normal' recoil). Your choices are:

1/ Use compressed air or CO2 rifle (no 3-way recoil)

2/ Use iron sights (because its the follow through you will be concentating on)

3/ Use a 'hunting' type air rifle with a quality scope (probably nearest to a tactical rifle)

If you are interested in a UIT type rifle, then you will not go wrong with a quality European make (Walther, Feinwerkbau, etc). For 'hunting', I think that the Weirachvrange is all good. I dont have any experience with compressed air or CO2, but I do know that they are totally recoilless.

If you have a bad back, then don't even think about trying UIT.

Hit me off roster if you want to discuss this further.

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 00:30:50 (ZULU)

Lindy - all UIT air guns are 177 only. You might want to talk to your local air gun club, they may have some rifles they want to get rid of, and these are usually bargains.

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 00:41:04 (ZULU)

SteveA: thanks for the response. I just noticed that our local range has an airgun silhouette match on the schedule. I think I'll go watch.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 00:56:25 (ZULU)

SteveA - I shot my AR10 in .260 for the first day at the Allegheny match this year. I was using a Leupold Mark4 10x scope with the cam designed to match the 190 gr sierra from a 300 win mag. The .260 tracked just fine out to 1000 yards, but I had to adjust my wind calls a bit, I kept calculating too much hold using 2/3rds what the .308/ 175 gr shooters were putting on.....<g>

I don't know what kind of barrel life to expect, but the .260 properly loaded shoots significantly flatter than a .308 at long distance...and recoil is markedly less... the only downside is terminal ballictics... you probably can't kill anything bigger than say a 500lb bear way out yonder... bummer

medicjim
Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 01:15:57 (ZULU)

Ken M: Tell those cats at 1st Rec and 1st Force hey for me if you see 'em.

.408 is supposed to be doing pretty good I hear. I want the one on the A5 stock ...

brian k. sain
Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 03:27:49 (ZULU)

Medicjim

You have mail

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 11:31:24 (ZULU)

Air Rifles???

I can talk air rifles........ heh-heh

Simply put as already stated: If you scope a springer Leupold or Burris - NOTHING ELSE they are shit and will break or lose tracking repeatability over time. I have seen it too many times with TTTTasco, BBBBushenell, HHHHHHHHHHaaaaaaaaaaakkkko, etc. etc.

Don't Buy Beeman, you can get the same rifles for far less through other domestic importers, or via overseas orders for the UK or Germany.

.177 is the standard, I prefer 5mm (.20 caliber) for field competition use in Silhouette & Field Target (a UKD Euro silhouette with kill zone type targets), .22 and .25 for hunting or pest elimination.

More later if needed.

peteR
By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A.! - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 13:04:50 (ZULU)

Steve, no beagle but i found a US air base and the ground station at Maspalomas that my mission uses, and oh no.. this is no place for a beer monster like me, we booked all inklusive,, damn when you get down to an inch of beer left in yer glas the bar chick gives you a full one again!!!was about pissed and only been here 4 hours !!

Air guns,, nor i can tell you some stories, napolionic wars, sniper used air guns to pick of officers, air guns are the worst most fiddly firearms to work on, Weihrauch are excellent weapons, i have a HW 90 with a factory bthoeben gas ram, its pumped up to over 60 foot pounds, it shoots ragged holes at 50m,, and my ex wife gave it me as a present for xmas one year .. Ha double ha..

first air gun was a BSA meteor, i like the HW 97K,, Jons is a fine gun.. right gotta go.. the meter is running low on credit.

GREETINGS FROM this spanish out post in the Atlantic..

i hate flying, but the bus ride from the airport was worse !!

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 19:39:53 (ZULU)

Daystate is supposed to be good kit for air rifles round here..

SteveA,

Don't mind my rants none, I see red mist when the dreaded ruugahmuffin is mentioned... And if I hear of another before/after article on velocity/performance on a hacksaw jobbie my heads gonna explode, 'oh lookie another polish the turd write-up'....The conclusions drawn from the chop are not going to tell me much except you did a better job crowning than the factory, I would rather see the difference between two quality barrels in same chambering of different lengths..At HS, we made 308's in 20-22-24-26" for the HTR and RDR's, but also made 308's in 16.5" for the XP-100's..Good test, and not as much difference in velocity as the layman would like to believe, 308's a short case relatively, and doesn't use sluggish powders to get up to speed..the 16.5 was hellishly accurate, as was the 24"...muzzle pressures a bit higher in the shorter barrels, so can see stiffness of system being an issue, a lot more flash in the shorter barrels, but all in all leads me to the conclusion in 308, match the barrel length to the application, it's likely going to be accurate if well made...

So if you are cutting the barrel short for the can, first of all if it's T8 make sure you aren't cutting the barrel too short so the back of the can bumps the forend of the stock, but my advice is just cut the bbl short and do the article from there...If you shoot groups with the original barrel and factory crown, then cut the barrel short, shoot more groups, if the latter are better, just shows what a crap job factory barrels are..Hell Yote Bate should probably put together a kit for the dremel, for folk to accurize their factory sticks, he knows what I'm getting at..in 308 accuracy is not going to be diminished by a shorter barrel, long range performance maybe...accuracy will be enhanced by better crown, as it's the last 4" of barrel that makes ALL the difference, and especially that last .010"...

Pete,

take pictures mate..

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 19:51:17 (ZULU)

JR, you volunteering the services of Border Barrels for "two quality barrels in same chambering of different lengths"?

If you are, I'll even pay the postage! Now can't say fairer than that can I?

I notice that you keep referring to me fitting a can - it's a brake that I'm planning on.

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 20:37:48 (ZULU)

Test***Test***Test

Looks like the woodenshoeboy is finally back on the roster...

To the great red head hunter, also known as the-one-who-sleeps-with-the-piggs, i still owe you money, m8!

Finally got settled down and in the near future will have more time for huntin and shootin, so i might be comin y'r way soon, should be fun!

Did Val tell you about our sniper match adventure in France?

Talk to you soon,

Marco.

Marco
NL - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 21:17:40 (ZULU)

Pete wrote;

”napolionic wars, sniper used air guns to pick of officers,”

I worked for a number of years for Crosman Corp. (The BB Gun People). In our engineering vault we had one of the early European Battle Air Rifles. The butt-stock was a removable air flask that was pumped up using what resembled a more modern bicycle pump. Because of the age of the rifle we never shot it but I do remember taking it down off the rack from time to time to admire the workmanship.

A spring air rifle is well described as a single cycle diesel engine. The adiabatic compression of the air by the piston serves to add heat to the pressurization process and produces the most efficient albeit most violent acting of any air gun.

I agree that the .20 caliber is perhaps the most versatile of the calibers available.

The most accurate rifles currently available are the high pressure gas precharged rigs being used by the field shooters. Get out your check book.

When we fielded an Olympic free pistol for use in the Korean Olympics by a guy named Skaniker we precharged some of the tanks with helium. During the practice sessions the report was like a .22RF. This really psyched out the Soviet shooters. Not that it was intentional. ;-)

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 11, 2004, at 21:48:23 (ZULU)

PeteL,

How do you get ragged one hole groups at 50M with HW-90? I was not able to do that with a HW-90, Beeman version, or a Theoben Eliminator US marketed model.......

65 psi gives what velocity .177 900+ fps?

What pellets?

or were you using another caliber?

Inquiring minds want to know!

peteR
By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A.! - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 11:12:22 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I bought my 5 year old daughter (can't start them too young) a used Feinwerkbau 300S Target air rifle. This model air rifle was one of the very best target rifles 15-20 years ago, and it is very heavy and extremely accurate. It came with Match sights, but I mounted a 4x air rifle scope on it to teach my daughter how to shoot. I paid $450 for this air rifle and would recommend it for what you want to do.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 12:08:28 (ZULU)

Well, just got back last night from the journey to Misery....Missouri. Watched my baby girl walk on the stage as a Basic Trainee, walked off as a Soldier. Gonna hafta go see the doc, had a few minutes when it was kinda hard to breathe. Musta been something in the air coditioning ducts, like a loose CS can went off, or somebody's OC, 'cuz there were quite a few folks experiencing respiratory distress. They grow up fast, don't they? I must admit, there was a little disconnect, suddenly she was speaking in a dialect I almost understand. First time I ever heard her talk about "some f***ing no-load a**hole....Oh, gosh, I'm sorry, Daddy!" I just about fell out laughing. Imaging the joys of shopping at Clothing Sales with yer kid, and not for ankle socks. She bought me a camo neck cloth. Anyway....had to leave, as she had to go and secure her gear for the move over to AIT. 88M. Suddenly, I was 32years yojnger, looking at a set of orders and trying to figure out where the hell Thailand was. Then on to Ft. Benning, after her pelvis heals. She did the last three weeks with a fractured ischial tuberosity (sit bone) that hasn't completely healed.

Got the Savage doped out to 1k. Man, ya gotta love something that cheap that works that good. Minds me of an OS-3 I met once up in Adak, Alaska....anyway, shoots lest than 1 moa out to 600, and I think that the trigger actuation device was responsible for any spread after that. The Bushnell Elite 3200 I slung on top was no slouch, either. No angled bases, so it topped out at 27' for 800 yards. Using 1.5 mil holdover made consistent hits at 9, and 3.5 made it possible at 1k. Hard cranked it back to the 100 yd setting, and it was within a quarter-inch of where it was shooting from the first. Since I've changed the load a squinch from the old Howa load, and Dirty Steve doesn't hang around to faithfully chrono every load I churn out (it's his Chrony), I'm not sure of the exact velocity of the load, but the 175's follow the standard bullet drop tabels in the little green sniper dope book almost to the "T". I just might have to find one chambered in .300 WSM....

Dirty Esteban......you good to go in the AM? Answer yer phone.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 13:21:39 (ZULU)

Yes the cut off barrels is a pretty well known science now. Accuracy isn't usually dramatically improved by cutting or even enough improvement to scientifically prove it's happening. Recrowning on the other hand is probably the reason for improved accuracy in most cases. Just 2 weeks ago I put a NEW factory Remington with less than 200 rounds from a 3.5 MOA rifle to 1.25 MOA consistently with the infamous Dremmel Cone. What a lousy state of affairs when you have to Dremmel a new Factory barrel to get it under 2". The gun would go 1MOA consistently had the chamber been properly done. The Brownell tools are available for a few bucks to do it right and they work better than the Dremmel method or so they should anyway and all our Brownell tool crowns have been good but a few were no better than the Dremmel worked tubes. Actually they didn't shoot better but looked a lot better and peace of mind is a wonderful thing.

Don't you guys know you can put your eye or someone else's with those damn BB guns?

It's a commie plot to blind our paratroopers!

At last a weapon we can issue the 82nd with confidence all they will lose is their eyes. :) Just kiddin smoke jumpers!

Brogers
Monday, July 12, 2004, at 13:39:45 (ZULU)

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue

to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries

that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

Think about it. .

All I have to say is, when will they do something about

MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't

celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry

Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings. It's not Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. Isn't it amazing

how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday? We've gone so far the other way, bent over

backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being

offended. But, it seems that no one has a problem with that.

This is an editorial written by an

American citizen, published in a

Tampa newspaper He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!

IMMIGRANTS,

NOT AMERICANS,

MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we

are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11,

we have experienced a surge

in patriotism by the majority

of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had

barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about

the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those

who have recently come to

our country, and apparently some born here, needs to understand. This idea of America being a

multicultural community

has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we

have our own culture, our

own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.

Therefore, if you wish to become part

of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan... We adopted this motto because Christian men and women,

on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

It is certainly appropriate to display it

on the walls of our schools. If God

offends you, then I suggest you

consider another part of the world as

your new home, because God is part

of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or

you don't like Uncle Sam, then you

should seriously consider a move

to another part of this planet. We

are happy with our culture and have

no desire to change, and we really

don't care how you did things where

you came from. This is

OUR COUNTRY,

our land and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the

right to express his opinion and we

will allow you every opportunity to do

so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag,

our pledge, our national motto, or our

way of life, I highly encourage you

take advantage of one other great American freedom,

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

If you agree -- pass this along;

if you don't agree -- delete it!

AMEN

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC, USA - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 13:44:25 (ZULU)

Chris, Bearman,:

Check www.northstateshootingclub.com for the info on use of sand bags. Last match I went to, Bob Crone (match director) said something about no sandbags, roled blankets or rucks.

C Hunt:

ref the elevation out of your bushnell; if you want to shoot to 1000 without the hold off, try 4 or 5 peices of shim made from a coke can under the rear mount. It works. But you'll need to use a sticky adhesive (a drop of silicon caulk will work and cleans up easy) to keep it from sliding out after a days match shooting. It'll get you thru a pinch till you get a ferrel base, etc.

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC, USA - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 18:26:49 (ZULU)

Coke can under the rear scope mount is a good way to bend the scope mount and or scope and FUBAR thing quickly, in my opinion. Burris ring with offseting insert are the safest cheap way to go. Angled mounts are getting more popular and therefore less expensive, again in my opinion.

Buy quality buy once.

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 18:48:26 (ZULU)

RE the Savage: I considered putting a badger 20 moa base on it like the Howas. I decided against it because I wanted to get the scope as low as possible; the others required I build up the stock quite a bit so I could get proper eye relief. And, as far as I know, I won't be shooting past 800 very often, and I kinda figgured it would be faster to just remember the holdoffs for 900 and 1k rather than start skirling the knob around. The rifle looks a little cleaner because of that than the Howas. And, it is NOT a problem....the holdoff worked just fine. I had Steve Suttles verify it for me and record my come-ups for the ambient temp. Good 'nuff fer me....

Charle S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, July 12, 2004, at 19:44:38 (ZULU)

Comments please on the S&W 642. I am considering purchase and would like to hear opinions...best in class or dog? Suggestions for holsters, training techniques, ammo, etc.

medicjim
Monday, July 12, 2004, at 20:54:49 (ZULU)

Don K. - the current issue of _Shooting Times_ has a picture of the current NCAA air rifle champion, Morgan Hicks, shooting a Feinwerkbau 270, which she has been shooting since she was 16. Interesting looking rifle - thank for the tip.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 00:00:56 (ZULU)

Jim: I have a 642. It works - dunno about best in class. It's a belly gun. I keep it loaded with 110 gr. CorBon +P loads. During the summer, it mostly stays in the pocket of a Cabela vest which I grab if going to run an errand, but don't want to change out of my shorts and T-shirt and belt on a 45. During the winter, it stays in an outside coat pocket, when I might have trouble getting in the coat to draw my .45. You don't look funny in the winter with your hands in your coat pockets, and, with a shrouded hammer, you can fire it right through the pocket. I haven't shot it much, and don't want to - just enough to figure out where the sights were on a target about 7 yards away. Further than that, and you're better off to run for cover, as it's not very accurate.

You can carry it in a front pants pocket, too, especially if they're pleated, and I have an ankle holster which I rarely use. If I think might need a backup gun, I usually just carry another .45, though I've gained enough wisdom to often decide that I don't need to go somewhere where I think I might need a backup gun.

I think a pair of Crimson Trace laser grips would be a good accessory to add an intimidation factor to a firearm which isn't very intimidating looking.

Just my two cents.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 02:05:39 (ZULU)

MJIM; 642 is a nicely priced lil piece that pound for pound makes a good viable weapon. About $325 buys one and the .38 is adequate as any small gun. The trigger is usually manageable in double action quick shots. You can do a lot worse. Wife has a Chief's special that she's got pretty well worn but you can't get her out of it. One you got in your pants or purse is worth 10 in the glove box. Try to get close or wait till the opposing forces do however it's limited as to range for accuracy and power reasons also.

LEt me Edit in that the Burris nylon tapered insert system is perfectly viable and steady as a rock. No scope damage and no shift. Fine stuff. Why they don't put that in a little different arrangement for clamping to the base is a source of wonderment to me. Although it's sightly and solid it would sell better if it had a little different arrangement for the base clamp.

The Savage 300 WSM **** that be four stars. There's not much information on the .300 SAUM that has been tried by the masses. It's no good! So don't be bringing em to the match where I shoot mine please. Damn ugly thing shoots all over the paper at 1000. Can barely cover it with your cap.

Brogers
Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 03:08:48 (ZULU)

Demo, you gotz mail, N/A......

EDIT: send me an email, I am bouncing dood....

Geoff M
WI, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 03:37:32 (ZULU)

Demo, how goes it out there?

Sarge, my email address changed, how do I change it with you guys?

Michael
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 03:40:42 (ZULU)

Hey Gents,

Demo introduced me to your community recently and I have been taking my time looking around. I Bought a TRG-42 in 338 lap-mag just before my recent trip and when I get home I am planning to begin reloading for it. If anyone has some home brew they are willing to share I would appreciate the help. Thanks

Morgue
Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 05:19:53 (ZULU)

Brogers,

Silly question, 3 round groups were 8 inches at 1K? or the 27 rounds went into 8 inches? Sorry, I'm easily confused.

Why 168s and not 175s or even 190s?

I shot next to a gentleman using Rem 700 chambered for 300 SAUM, shooting 190 SMKs (A3 or A4 McMillian stock, 5.5-22X56 NXS, and Pac-Nor barrel). Shot pretty decent scores at Rocky Mountain Palma Match this past June; mid to upper 440s with mid to upper 20s X count.

Do you think that the SAUM is not as inherently accurate as the 300 WSM? Just curious.

Hmmm....Varget in SAUM / WSM....I'd have thunk H4350 and 190s but what do I know. Very interesting. What kind of velocity and ES did you see with the SAUM / varget / 168 combo?

Kinda goes back to what JR said, matching powder, barrel length, bullet weight, and intended application of said round. More overbore a cartridge is, the slower the powder will need to be and more velocity will be lost as the barrel is shortened. I'm of the opinion that you pick the bullet you need for the task at hand, figure out how fast you need to push that bullet, then find case that will give you enough capacity for that speed ( or make up a wild cat case to give you the needed case capacity).

Leads me into my wildcat, 6.5MIC, a 6.5-08 long neck improved. Pushes 140 JLK at 2975fps with 44.1gr of H4350 vs 142 SMK at 3025fps with 50ish gr of H4350 in my buddy's 6.5-284. Throat errosion in his rifle for 210 rnds was 0.015". Throat errosion in my rifle for 208 rnds was 0.003". Scores have been pretty respectable as well 442-27X (first day at RMPM), 450-30X (second day at RMPM), 449-37X (third day at RMPM), and 449-36X last Saturday at Capitan. 856 rounds down the tube.

Anybody going to be at SOA? I hope to make the match but work is not being very cooperative at the moment.

Until next time,

FCS

FCS
Central , NM, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 06:13:58 (ZULU)

Morgue,

Welcome aboard Sir. I'm sure you'll enjoy it here. Sorry I can't help with a recipe; but I'm sure someone can and will.

WY6,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The hot & muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 11:08:26 (ZULU)

morgue, Undude has a lot of knowledge about the .338 lapua, I suspect that he will reply shortly. Welcome aboard!

Michael
SJ, CA, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 14:02:07 (ZULU)

FCS; Actually it was mainly a joke about the ball cap which would cover most of the groups easily except the 20" when the wind came up to 20mph. ...I'm a little confused about exactly what your "silly question" means for sure but the groups we fired were 5.5, 5.75 and 9 until the 20" entered the picture when the sand started blowing it's usual gale, That one would obviously have only been covered by the Jolly Green Giants jaunty green beret...but the speed on the 168's chrono said 2950. Plenty supersonic at a K . Actually I plan to try the 190's and have a number of them loaded as we write. You are not off base in assuming the 175's or 190's would be as or more suitable given the windy conditions. I also plan to test the 178 Grain A-max Hornady in the near future. I don't intend to load things up to screaming maximum and the 300 SAUM is not what I would call a big capacity magnum case. IT's plenty adequate at 1000 yards and outshot the Styer Manlicher PSSG in .308 on the same day that was shooting one holers at 100 yds and 13 to 18" at the K. . The load was less than 55 grains Varget in the SAUM being more in the 30-06 range than 300 Ultra. One should think about these little fat boys as more like the BR class than the Ultra Mags. Both are very accurate by most standards. The tongue in cheek remark about the SAUM was just that. IT's every bit as accurate as the WSM if our testing is any indication. My reason for going to it was trying to test a rifle that would do the F-class without burning out a barrel each match and be suitably above the sound barrier as so not to leave any doubt about it's ability to shoot the magic 1k or 100 meters if need be. I usually test Varget first because I keep it in great quanity and use it in everything from .223 to .300 win mag. (do use magnum primers in the 300 with VARGET or you'll get hang fires). (yes I know the manual doesn't show a load for it. )

We've used Retumbo and RL 22 in the large magnums but the slower burning stuff doesn't show significant advantage in our tests anyway. Benchrest might even be a good alternative in the SAUM if other tests mean anything. H4350 would be a good powder to try and there's some in my powder measure right now getting ready for some tests in the SAUM. We are considering using some Retumbo just to see what it will do. Actually we usually start with VARGET and see what results it delivers since we've never found anything it doesn't work well in except very large magnums and 7mm Rem mag for some unknown reason. Kind of takes out the unknown if you know what I mean.

Brogers
Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 14:07:35 (ZULU)

Morgue, Sako TRG42 is excellent weapon, just wish they had a faster than 1-11 twist bbl on the factory model. When you burn that out think about sending to GA for a 1-10 or 1-9.5 twist, so you can shoot the 300s and lathe turned bullets. Right now I suggest sticking with 250's. MOst guys have had better luck with the Lapua brand 250s over the Sierra but I like the Sierras.

Powders I like RL22 and RL25. Retumbo has a great following but most use the Vitavori powders.

I like the Remington Magnum primers.

Lastly just buy the Lapua brand cases. The Norma cases are no where near as good and the loads will have to be reduced in the Norma cases.

For laod data I suggest calling the Sierra Tech department and they will give you so many loads you wont have to ever go anywhere else.

The freaking internet loading sites suck for 338 Lapua data.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 15:51:01 (ZULU)

Bill,

You may want to try RL22 in your 300 SAUM with the 190SMK. This is the powder in my Tactical .30-06 with Lapua brass, Fed 210M, and the 190SMK. I run 60.4 grains at 2878fps for 1k shooting. Your case capacity is a little more (68.2 for the '06 vs. 73.5 for the 300 SAUM), so it should work fine with a little more powder. Forget Varget (too fast) and Retumbo (too slow). The H4350 should work fine with the 178 A-Max. I'm currently running 60.0 grains of N160 in .30-06 LC Match cases at 2887fps with the 178 A-Max out of a Winchester Target Rifle.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 17:03:34 (ZULU)

Gents,

Hope this makes it to the list. My last two posts didn't for some reason.

On the .338 Lapua. Both Scott and myself have settled on 90.0 grains of Retumbo and a 300 gr SMK. Manuals say you can go to 94.0 gr, but we've encountered pressure signs with anything over 90.0 gr, in warm conditions. RL-22 and RL-25 are useful, as well. I like the 250 grain Lapua Scenars. They shoot darn well. Agree with Undude. Go to the 1:10 or 1:9.5 twist to stabilize the long 300 gr. SMK's. Just my .02 worth.

On concealed weapons: having it with you is a must. As noted, a gun in the safe is worthless. The .38 Spec in one guise of another probably is the best of the breed. Personally, I like the Glock 36. It's relatively small, light, and packs seven rounds of .45 ACP. A bit more in the payload department and seven rounds instead of five.

Thursday is range day. More testing of the .284 Winch "Mexlicher". Will probably play with my M25 a bit. Still have to find out if my load is tracking with the cam.

We have several of our folks who are deployed now. Prayers for all of them.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 18:18:08 (ZULU)

yesterday i posted something said by Bob Crone ref. supports for shooting F-class at Butner. Well, I looked at the sight rules. I still recall him saying something about not being allowed to use sand bags in the TR sub class of F-class, but yet the rules do not say you can't. http://northstateshootingclub.com/Frames/Frame_FClass.htm So, i guess you can use them, a ruck or a bipod. I'm confused. :-{

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 18:37:54 (ZULU)

Thanks Don, MIke and .....

glad you said that instead of me Wes. I've taken a don't ask don't tell approach to my closet use of a Glock Pistol. History channel today reported that half the Law enforcement agencies in the United states are Glock users and believe it's the best and most accurate handgun for their troops. But geees what do they know?

Anyway Steve; I would wonder why it would be a F-class if they started making rules against practical rest of da rifle. I thought the absence of rules was the main reason for this class.

Otherwise it might be called AT Class. for Anal Tactical.

Brogers
Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 21:08:56 (ZULU)

YES Sir Wes, I to am a Glock 36 shooter and love that little pistol! Just finished my CCW class over the week-end and am getting the rest of the paper work together! Should have it about 6 weeks after I send it off!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 21:18:39 (ZULU)

Steve S,

The F T/R was originally started using bipod only. From what I've gathered, to keep F T/R closer to what the DCRA rules are, they are allowing a front rest now but the rifle weight is cut to 16lbs if a rest is used. (18.1 if bipod)

If you can use a rest, you can use sand bags. Though it doesn't specificlly say, I'm 90% sure that a rifle rested on anything BUT a bipod MUST weigh 16 lbs or less.

The rear "rest" can be a gloved hand, sand sock, etc. I don't know if a rabbit ear bag ban be used or not.

If I make it, and I plan to, I will have a 12 lbs 308 on a bipod :)

Chris...

Chris
Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 23:48:03 (ZULU)

Brogers,

EXCELLENT way of bracketing the velocity/accuracy issue!! Varget is very versatile and usually will give decent accuracy as well. Lets you find how far apart the barrel nodes are and some idea of accuracy potential; all this without putting lots of rounds down the tube. :-)

300 WSM has great barrel life in an F-class gun; my shooting buddy has a Win 70 (formerly a 223 rem) set up as 300WSM, Shehan tracker stock, border 30" straight taper barrel with almost 700 rounds through it. Load is 210 JLK VLDs, 60ish gr of H4350, Win or Norma brass, BR2 primers for chronographed speed of 2850. Very consistant load and bucks the wind like you can only imagine!! Throat errosion has been very 6BRish so I'd say your on the right path.

If you are running 1:12 twist you'll easily be able stabilize 190 JLKs, I'm pretty sure that 1:11.25 twist will stabilize 210 JLKs.

I'm going to have to get over your way one of these days so we can bust some caps together!

Great shooting!

FCS
Central, NM, - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 02:34:57 (ZULU)

Hey, I'm the FNG on this site so I'll probably be asking some really dumb questions for a while. I've been reading some of the comments about calibers that I don't shoot. I shoot mostly military calibers, including .50BMG, and mostly at Law Enforcement ranges even though I've had the 1000 yrd training. I do have a 300 Win Mag rifle in the works and am researching the SSK Manufacturing AR-15 upper, with a can, in 300 Whisper. Has anyone heard of or have any experience with this combo? It sounds like a good tactical weapon for stuff inside 400 or 500 yrds. They say $1750 plus the tax stamp for everything, made to order, with a two to three month delivery time (I'm hoping BATF can do as well on the tax stamp). Anyone have any feedback on the 300 Whisper round?

Indiansinger.

Roger C. Carpenter
Vardaman, MS, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 04:45:02 (ZULU)

Morgue,

Welcome to the site! Hopefully we have someone now that can keep our good buddy Demo in line! I love my TRG, and have tried all kinds of loads for it. Stick with the 250 Scenars until you shoot that barrel out, as they are a bit more accurate. 1:10.25" is t!ts for the 300 SMK's when you need to change it up a bit. I also found I group a bit tighter without the muzzle brake on. I use 93.5gr Retumbo behind the Scenars and it seems to do well for me. I got a few 5 inch groups at 600 with it, but that is the exception with my shaky hand.

Indiansinger,

Welcome to you also. I have been shooting the 300/221 longer than JD Jones named it the Whisper. It is an excellent round, and accurate as hell. Factory loadings are a little hot to run thru a supressor. Both of my cans add between 150 and 200 fps, pushing most factory fodder up to around 1300fps. Load your own! I use 11.5gr IMR 4227 behind 240gr SMK's. Nice chambered in the AR, but I have heard it's hard on pistons and gas blocks. Unless you plan on full auto, I'd think about a bolt gun. A 12" barrrel with a can on it (since you have to get the tax stamp anyway, have the barrel and can done as a unit), but make sure you go with a 1:8 or 1:8.5 twist for the heavy bullets at low speeds. Just mho, but I got a whole bunch downrange with that one.

Robert Martin
Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 12:07:42 (ZULU)

Injun Singer; wish I could say that about the guns and computers but anyhow welcome to "splendor in the grass and wind". I do love the guns and the computers are a pain in the prone postion. You can edit with that little pad and pencil down there and eliminate some of the text but don't worry about it. It's been done many times before.

Wish I new something about the Whisper but Robt. has that department.

Anyhow settle in and watch downwind.

FCS; sounds mighty good. I know you are well into the F Class out there, maybe you can teach me something. I'm not a serious competitor anywhere with anything but it looks like it might be fun to watch em arch in. My shooting compadre called yesterday wondering about buying a WSM vs. a .308 for 1k. I told him to go for the WSM if he could. It's just enough horses that you can make it to the target and shoot some heavy pills, 200 plus bullets sounds like a good deal to us who live out here in the "devine wind" area. I stick around the 168's too close sometimes, having been shooting them so long. The wind here is so inconsistent that a wrong guess is a way off miss anyway but at 1k it's gonna force some changes on my habits. Anytime your close come by! I could use the experience you have.

Brogers
Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 13:24:47 (ZULU)

Hey, I want a quick show of hands out there on you guys that use tabacco... Ok, that's good put your hands down. Here is a link to a company I do bidness with. http://finkcigarcompany.com/finck/ They have seagars, chew and snuff. As far as chew goes I have tried the Wilderness and Golden blends. At 10.95 a pound its a great deal. Good stuff, on the mildside but tastes great. It's more refined with out a bunch of damn stems and crap. You snuff guys may want to try there stuff far cheaper than Cope and Skoal. John L. out to get kick out of all the cigars they have to offer.

I now return you to something shooting related. I still haven't got my 9mm back from Alex Hamilton yet. But he says I am near the from of the line.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson
A Swift and Horrible Death to Our Enemies!, Texas, U. S. of A! - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 15:03:49 (ZULU)

Thanks everyone, and thanks Robert for the input.

I was thinking of a 20" upper with the can installed by SSK at the same time as you suggested. The idea was to get a flat-top reciever so I can change optics from precision shooting to CQB stuff. If an operator had a large building to clear, a quiet entry would help big time. Are the dies for the Whisper hard to get? I'm sure that factory ammo would be expensive for anyone who loves to play. I didn't ask about select fire but I can guess that money might be an issue. I just spent most of my play money on an AR50 and all the gear that goes with it (press, dies and such). Thanks again for the intel. It's good to know that there's someone out there that can help keep my silly gluts out of trouble.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Vardaman, MS, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 15:38:43 (ZULU)

Indiansinger, With the 20"bbl, and the supressor, you won't be subsonic and stable at the same time. Kinda defeats the purpose of using the diminuitive little thirty. The barrel length should be no more than 16" and using a can with a two point mount makes the whole thing a bit shorter. If you try to load the round to be subsonic from both a supressor (which adds 200fps or so) and a 20" bbl (also adding 100fps or so over the 16"bbl the round was designed for) the bottom will fall out of it. In other words, you would have to load the round to go 950fps to keep it at 1100fps from the weapon. This is below the safety margin of the round. The "normal" reccommended subsonic fodder will be around 1500fps from the weapon you describe. The trick is to match the burn rate vs. powder volume to the length of the barrel, so the round is static, or no longer accelerating as it crowns. I load to hit 1050fps, and with only 4" of a 12" can in front of the crown of the barrel (2 pt mount) I get only about 100fps increase in velocity from the supressor. Using a bolt gun, the round really is just a whisper, as all you hear is a hollow thunk and hiss of the gasses leaving the supressor. If firing a supersonic load, you will get a crack as the bullet passes near any objects, the supressor being the first object it passes. Do some research and spend your money wisely the first time around, and don't let someone tell you that 1:10 twist is fine for this round. The 200+gr longer bullets do not stabilize at the slow speeds and you get a keyhole nightmare! Good luck!

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 20:31:03 (ZULU)

Copy that. A 16" barrel with the can would actually work out better for CQB stuff. Like I said before, it's good to know someone out there who can keep me out of trouble.

I have several bolt guns that I use for various distances, from a Remington LTR in .223 to the big bore AR50. My favorite so far is a .308 built by a guy named Jim Gruning, of Gruning Precision, out of Riverside, Ca. It's a one hole shooter at 100 yrds and I shoot the little red dot exploding targets at 400 yrds with it, and clay birds at 700 yrds. He boasts 1/4 min accuracy and I believe him. It has a Rem 700 reciever and everything else is custom, match grade goods. But even the Remington reciever doesn't function the same. He's slow, but he's worth it.

I have real good luck with the 168 gr Berger VLD's, CCI B/R primers, Lapua brass and 41.2 grains of Varget in the .308 .

Thanks again for the info.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Vardaman, MS, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 22:17:08 (ZULU)

Indiansinger;

What part of Mississippi are you in? There is a 1000 yard range in Pascagoula, MS in case you didn't know.

Morgue;

Welcome!

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 22:46:18 (ZULU)

Hey guys, one of my cop pals helping with Adopt A Sniper had a company make up some polished, solid, stainless steel bracelets much like the POW/MIA bracelets from VN as a fund raiser. These are sniper specific and very nice and durable ... not like the aluminium ones.

Here's the link to an SP thread with pics if anyone's interested.

http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=4551&st=15

Thanks men. Been outta town. I'll come back and visit in a few. Vaughn asked that I post this here as he cannot register for some reason. Got a million emails from overseas.

brian k. sain
Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 01:16:20 (ZULU)

Jody,

I'm in Vardaman, the Sweet Potato Capital, basically in north central part of the state. I wasn't aware of the range in Pascagoula (SP??) but I have a few places around here that give me some shooting distance. I have 400 yrds behind the house, I have a family friend with a pasture about a mile deep, and we have Camp McCain near Grenada where they have an artillery range. I met the OIC of the range at McCain who said it's illegal for me to shoot on the range, but it's an open post so hunting is allowed (Wink, Wink).

One of these days I may wonder down there to see who's shooting those kind of distances. Around here, if you can hit a pie plate at 100 yrds, everyone's happy. When I start shooting plastic push pins off the targets at 100 yards, they all seem to leave. I don't know why???? We do have some good, serious shooters here in the area though. We have a lot of fun.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Vardaman, MS, USA - Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 04:04:43 (ZULU)

Gents,

Thanks for the help. How many rounds should it take on average to burn out a barrel on the TRG-42?

Morgue
Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 05:43:12 (ZULU)

F class T/R- according to the North State Shooting Club site, you can use a ruck as a rest if it's the only rest. However, T/R is restricted by weight, caliber (.223 or .308) and requires a bipod on the fore end, not a sand bag. A lot of guys seem to use bipod front/rabbit ear bag in rear.

WR Moore
Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 07:03:14 (ZULU)

Morgue,

Sorry, can't help you there yet! I've got about 1800 rounds down my tube and it still does 1" groups at 200.

Rob

Robert Martin
PSL, FL, US - Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 12:38:34 (ZULU)

Hello folks!!

FCS,

There's a Border lurking in the Land of Enchantment? cool..Used to live in Grants during the 'Uranium Boom'..Don't know about 12 twist in 30WSM being stabilised 'easily' with the 190 JLK's, would probably go 11 just to stick in the 180-210 bracket to be safe..

Robert,

Still waiting on the sauerkrauts to get me a measuring probe made for the big bore 5r...Hey, talking of sundersonic cartridges, have you heard of the Cat's Sneeze? I think it was a scandinavian thing..

We could be outfitting the South African F-Class team for next years world champs in Blomfontein, a few of the bunch were up here the other day, had a good chat with em, showed em the process...And after I explained cut rifling was the SLOWEST rifling process around, they decide one of 'em would reaalllly like a barrel to shoot this Friday at Bisley, he says look at this one, it is shot out, what can I do....sheesh...here's a 4 groove barrel off the shelf, very nice barrel..No, I would like a 5r, Geoff says 5r is good..give a barrelmaker a break!! Oh all righty then..So ripped the machine apart, set up for 5r and his twist, made the barrel, had it chambered, threaded, fitted the stock, inletted the barrel channel, and out the door in 24 hr..A cut riflers pulse should never get above or below 60 beats per minute..Was testing that credo..

Pete the piggie poacher<

You holiday maker...must be nice, ha..Babcock Disposal services is the place in Rosyth, will get the web addy for you, but think its the same name .co.uk...lot's of harrisons up there, lots of other goodies, grinders!!!(thats my gig)..just got a brochure in the other day, will have a run thru for ya...We're looking for a horizontal, so I might be putting in a bid next week, will ask about for ya..

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 18:11:55 (ZULU)

Gents,

I see the Morgue finally broke the seal and said hello. His lurkin' was making me nervous!

Indiansinger: I do not know much about the whisper--but I do know a guy who's got one and that 200 yards is an absolute stretch for it in accuracy. I wouldn't shoot a deer-size animal past 150 from what I saw with his combo. It's a 700 action, 16" pipe and a can. Think CQB and nominal range and it'll work. I cannot imagine it has any energy left at 300 yards...

An IED went off last night just outside the wire. The only thing that makes sense is "negligent discharge." Heheh. Nuthin' was anywhere near it, and it was a very large detonation. The nug planting it was vaporized. Oh, the secondaries were transformers--quite the display but a bit late for the fourth. He planted it right next to a substation and mega-watt lines. Can you say induced current? IMHO, it couldn't happen to a better bunch of thugs...

Other than that, it has been nice here. Very quiet since the handover. A huge drop off in activity. Still too early to draw conclusions, but it is a hopeful sign.

A lot of us here like what we see, and we are buying stock in Irag at rock-bottom prices. The Dollar buys 1450 Dinars. Kuwait wasn't quite that low in 91, but Kuwait cranked out a 400% gain. I believe Iraq will do at least half as well over a few years' time. I'd be real happy with a 1:5 rate in a few years, and who sits on more oil? This currency is way devalued, and once those tankers hit China--who knows?

Demo

Demo
Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 18:18:25 (ZULU)

OK, OK, I cannot keep quiet any longer.

What the f**k is Retumbo?

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 20:27:26 (ZULU)

Retumbo

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/retumbo/index.php

medicjim
Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 20:33:39 (ZULU)

Medicjim - thank you sir. Never heard of it before, you learn something mew every day.

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Thursday, July 15, 2004, at 21:13:24 (ZULU)

Indiansinger;

E-mail sent in regards to Pascagoula.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 01:53:56 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

If you haven't taken a kid out for an afternoon of plinking lately you are missing a heck of a lot of fun. A good friend of mine is being visited by a fourteen year old nephew from Calif. and the boy asked if they could do some shooting. Fortunately for me, my buddy is right in the middle of re-modeling his house and most of his guns are locked away so he called me for help. All I knew was that the kid liked to shoot and was an avid scholar when it came to WW II history. I dug out an old M-1 Garand, a 1903 A1 Springfield, an M-1 carbine, a Luger, a P-38, a 1911A1 Colt, my SIG P220, a Glock 21, and just for the heck of it I grabbed my old S&W Model 41. Added a whole buch of ammo and met them at a friends abandoned clay pit. The kid was pretty small so I had to provide a little muscle to help him out with the autos; but that's where the need for help ended. WOW!! That kid was one heck of a fine shot. Anything within 50 yards was in deep trouble and that was offhand with no rest or sling. Asked him which he liked best, the M-1 or the Springfield? Told me he "needed" one of each. When it came to the pistols he was no slouch on them either. Hope he grows some more as he would do well in the military.

Demo & Morgue,

Glad things are relatively quiet in your neighborhood. Hope they stay that way. Keep your heads down and WY6.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The hot & muggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 02:01:34 (ZULU)

Brogers,

I'd be most happy to share what limited knowledge I've got on punching paper at distance! Soon as it slows down a bit I'll make it your way and we'll send a few down range!

JR,

Yep, I know of one Border down here. Heeeyyy......how soon could you get me a 5R, 1:8.5 twist, 6.5mm, 32 inch finished length, 1.2 inch diameter straight cylinder?! Heck, I'll take two as long as you've got the machine set up! ;-) I'd really like to have one for Bloemfontein, don't want those guys to have an unfair advantage! Out of curiousity, what caliber is he shooting? Not to get your heartrate above 60 BPM but I'd need the barrel by 1 August or there abouts. Have to break in barrel, work up load, test load at 1K, load 800 rounds and have to the exporters shipping dock by 1 October. No worries Mate!

I'd been shooting the 190 JLKs out of my 70 HV 308 at about 2600 fps; no problems to 600 yards anyway. Buddys 300 WSM is pushing 210 JLKs to 2850 fps so I figured 190s would run about 3000 fps. However, I'm at 5000+ ASL so we can get away with a little less twist; gets to be a problem at lower altitude. Ya get that Brogers, make sure he gets a 1:11 twist Border!! He will not be disappointed!!

"Life is too short to shoot factory barrels!" JC Dink sometime in 2002 but my memory is going so.....he'll just have to settle for me giving him credit!

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 06:17:41 (ZULU)

Peter, yes, the HW 90 is Very finicky on pellets, mine is a .22, my mate has the same one and he couldnt make nuthin of it, i use some pellets i bought in the UK, barracuda or something like that, they are slightly over size and heavey, ( i forget the weight but ill check when i get home), it took me about a dozen different types of pellets to find the right ones, but with the right ones it is devastatingly accurate and very very consistent. We had an airgun shooting comp here the other day, and i came second !! even won a glass of champagne, so much for competition shooting !! there is some real estate here that would make for some excellent rifle ranges..

Once in Scotland i shot a very nice roe buck who happened to have a 22 airgun pellet in his lower jaw.

gotta run, we are going for a ride in an U Boot..

Pete.

Peter Lincoln
Gran Canaria - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 10:37:01 (ZULU)

Jr,

No rush at all. I put the project on a back burner for now. BTW, I found the absolute threshold for .375 300grSGK's. They weren't making it to the end of the barrel at 3550fps! Guy next to me said it looked like I converted the rifle into one of those desktop lighters, a nice and steady bic-like flame was coming out the end for a few seconds. Ran a borescope down it and saw about 10 inches or so of the throat just gone. Don't worry, I won't do that to your barrel, I just needed to see the limits. I figure if we can get the bbl late fall, early winter, I'll be happy! Gotta save for Africa anyhoo.

After the group hunt in Oct, I'll be doing a little Bisley shooting as well down there. A big bore shoot in Klerksdorp and some HBR stuff near Pretoria. Trying to talk the wife into shooting a little F-Class, but she's iffy.

Anyone know of a good primmer style book about reading wind. Not for shooters, but beginners. I'm having trouble teaching the wife, thru no fault of hers (I'm a lousy teacher). Her not being at this for long, I need something written for the layperson. Something covering mirage and multiple wind patterns.

Rob

Robert Martin
Friday, July 16, 2004, at 11:52:38 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got an email this morning from a kid in Iraq with an M14. They scammed a 3.5-14 Leupold for it somehow. They have an ARMS base for the thing but no rings.

Anybody got a set of ARMS MEDIUM HEIGHT RINGS with the 1" INSERTS they wanna part with for the low, low price of free.

www.adoptasniper.com

brian k. sain
Friday, July 16, 2004, at 13:15:51 (ZULU)

Brian,

I have a set of Leupold 1" rings on a Springfield Armory mount. Would those rings work on the ARMS mount?? I guess I am not familiar with there mount. These are the rings that are made to clamp on the rail type mounts or Weaver slots. Let me know.

Pat
Friday, July 16, 2004, at 14:06:11 (ZULU)

Hey FCS,

Can a teammate piggyback a couple more barrels on your order? :~}, Gotta make it worth JR's time. That way he can raise his heart rate carryng all that steel to the machine. Waddaya think?

xshooter
ohio, USA - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 14:44:39 (ZULU)

Thanks to all of you that have purchased SniperQuest 2003 and 2004 t-shirts! We have completely sold out of 2003! We still have SniperQuest 2004 shirts available in Large and Extra Large.

Thanks for your support and I look forward to hearing from those that would like to purchase a t-shirt or two!

See the Emporium for details!

Sarge and the SC staff

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 17:53:30 (ZULU)

Insain,

Check your messages on your website. One from me about those rings you're looking for.

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Ca., usa - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 17:59:14 (ZULU)

Sent the boss and the young lads to Bisley today, peace at last!!!

FCS and xshooter,

Ha-ha..You do realise if I worked every barrel like the aforementioned, I would make an average of 100 barrels per year, instead of per month...That episode is the equivalent of you taking one case, prepping, weighing charge, seating bullet, then going to the next case, or Ford making one car at a time..I'm gonna try working a schedule up for 8 week delivery by boat if the demand is there, would rather send at least 20 barrels at a time by boat, to keep shipping down a bit, shipping is horrendous by air, but if the guy is willing to pay, fair enough......After Bisley is over will be making another stock list, so email me with details, not holding anyone to an order, just don't have the time to go thru all the contours and lengths..

FCS,

Didn't send any straight cylinder 6.5 5r's to Otto, just our 31.5" S1 palma profiles...August 1 2005? sounds good..ha..The springboks ordered a range of calibers, 6mm, 6.5, 7, and 30..

My pulse may not get much over 60BPM anymore as far as rifling goes, no matter how busy it may be, and perhaps I can enlighten you why....You learn patience quick in this game, have to..My concern is not getting a barrel or a bunch of barrels out the door willy nilly so I can say I make barrels fast, but just to make every one of them right, every time, in a timely productive manner..I can and have made 30 barrels in a day, per day, or sat on one machine for one barrel for two days as I maybe had to make adjustment after adjustment to get my standard..Takes roughly an hour average to cut the grooves, but a millisecond to piss 'em up...Pluck a hair out of your head, divide that diameter by 30, and those are my tolerances, exacting type tolerances which my tooling must meet for my barrels to work, in my opinion anyway, which has always worked....My machines must be running at proper pressures and speeds/feeds, proper backlash compensation, they gotta be tight, and gotta watch for all of this during the course of the cut, for my barrels to work. Cut rifling is a work of art, the barrelmakers grind and make all their own tooling, I don't buy hooks from MSC or Graingers, I start out with pieces of metal, braze em together and grind faces, clearance angles, rakes, and radii to the .00005" TIR, and for that to work my grinders and toolmaking equipment must be running exact, which I have to constantly keep an eye on...We make our own personal judgments on the shape and depth of the groove(we generally have to physically stop the machine when the groove is at proper depth, no automatic shit here, if you left it to the machine it would cut it's happy ass off all day), we determine if the barrel is right or wrong..No gray area...our work is our signature...So see, I can't get excited, it would cloud the judgment..Wouldn't mind building a stage in the barrel shop for some go-go girls though...

later

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Friday, July 16, 2004, at 19:57:03 (ZULU)

Disregard the ring post men. A buddy came through with a set.

Thanks ! BK

brian k. sain
Friday, July 16, 2004, at 21:39:27 (ZULU)

FCS; roger on all that. 1 in 11. Be lookin for you.

Brogers
Friday, July 16, 2004, at 22:05:49 (ZULU)

xshooter,

Heck yes!! Be honored if you wanted to help me keep JR busy!! ROFLMAO We'll just have to give him the need contours, I'm sure we could get upwards of 10 if we just called around. Might even be able to get cost of air frieght to a reasonable level that way. Ya up for that JR?

X, Will you be able to make SOA? FCNCs are pretty iffy for me, long ways to go and no time to make the trip. May look into shipping the ammo and flying with rest of my gear. Out of vacation time so it depends on how many $ I can save up and if work will cooperate.

JR,

Thanks for the lesson! I figured most of that but since I've never made a barrel, tis nice to know!! High power laser systems can give you similar problems, drift off mentally for a second and you can have some nasty things happen.

Now if you'd kindly not pick on my loading technique I'd appreciate it!

I spoke with Otto's wife, can not remember her name at the moment, a couple of months back but did not place an order. Looks now like I should have. Oh well, it happens. Worlds are April 2005, wish I had until August but don't.

Okay, all joking aside...how long would it take to get a barrel without any special gyrations? Cause I'm pretty sure that you don't want to see me gyrating! Looks like you could make up 4 barrels for Xshooter(2 enough for you X?) and I at minimum. If you're serious about making us some barrels on short notice I bet I could get to 10 barrels on the order without trying too hard.

Ya shouldn't have let me know you could be sooo quick on making barrels!!

Keep up the great work on the barrels JR!! I'll get one of your barrels, soon or later, but I'll get one.

Brogers,

Expect an email from me soon, need to figure out the best way & time to get to your place. Matter o' fact, will send you one as soon as I post this.

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 02:46:08 (ZULU)

JR,

Do I have to fill out the End User Undertaking form?

Okay, okay, looks like closer to 12 weeks than 12 days!! I know, I'm dreaming big!!

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 03:47:11 (ZULU)

Hello! New to the Duty Roster.....Deputy Sheriff and SWAT sniper in Wisconsin. Brian Sain recommended that I get my butt on here as you guys are a great bunch. I am a cohort in crime with Brian and the Adopt A Sniper crew.

Great to be here.

Vaughn

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 05:24:54 (ZULU)

Welcome, Vaughn! The opinion of another professional is very welcome here, even if sent here by a dubious route!

I'm kidding, of course - Brian is one of my favorite odd people, and nearly a neighbor. I expect you'll enjoy it here. Sometimes we even talk about shooting... :-)

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 16:43:58 (ZULU)

Vaughn, Welcome from the Sniper Country Staff, hope you enjoy these "Hogs" and don't hesitate to jump in!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 17:53:56 (ZULU)

Vaughn,

Welcome aboard. Always nice to have a new "face" around. Are you as insane as Brian? ;o) Hope you enjoy.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 18:19:17 (ZULU)

Thanks for the welcome, guys. Am I as insane as Brian? Doubtful. I am nowhere near the crowd-pleaser that Brian is.

I've been reading Duty Roster for a while, so I'm familiar with a few of you already. I also know that there is a vast pool of knowledge on this forum and I look forward to utilizing it.

Vaughn

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 18:27:04 (ZULU)

Welcome Vaughn,

Youse guys at adoptasniper are doing one helluva job for the boys, hat's off, ace in my book..

FCS and xshooter,

Yes you would need an EU form, but we can send thru our importers who have all the licenses and what nots, less headache..Main reason I couldn't get to you by Aug 1 is half my work force is at Bisley for the week, would be pushing it regardless as there is quite a distance between us, but I intend to get an end of aug shipment to Otto if any of you are interested..so Yes, ask around, get in touch with me on contours and lengths, but mainly get in touch with me off the roster and can deal with youse guys one on one with the straight dope..The quicker I can get a list made up, the quicker I can get the next shipment date set..Wasn't picking on your loading technique(ha), just making a point that production doesn't work that way...Might be nice for the individual, but no so nice for the rest of the lot....Just remember it's not like I only have 10 barrels to make per week, there are 150-200 on the custom production list at any given time, 170 for one customer in November alone....

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 19:06:03 (ZULU)

Hi All, lets see I've been on a roller coaster for the last couple weeks. A break up with the old lady put me on the available list and the only taker I had was Jon B. who offered to wear a mini and be my date...tempting but oh well (BKS you out there, wink wink LOL). But Now me and the "better half" have regrouped and are back on....we even went house hunting...not a pleasing experiance here in SoCal, about 3/4 mil for what we need (read what she told me we need). Of couse she knows what to look for...she found one with all we wanted plus an attached workshop (puuurrrr).

Anyway it's good to be back and get caught up with you all.

Mike Miller you have clean incoming via SC

Jon B. I got your e-mail and you have a return. Timing was perfect.

Pete L. Whats up piggy man. If the schedule is open for vacation I may try to make it over in March for the show. If I do can I hitch a ride from Langen with you. I'll buy the pils, weisse and brats.....I might even wear lederhosen for you.

Just ordered my Jewel trigger for the AR10 and a Les Tam Sling for the M52B will be ordered monday. Next on the AR10 list is a trip to GA Precision.

Till later...stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kalifornia, Hail the red white and blue - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 19:09:59 (ZULU)

Hey Vaughn,

Welcome,

If you're a friend of "In"sain, you're alright in everybodys book. Have a thick hide with some of these curmudgeons, they'll adjust to you quickly enough.

Unfortunately for you, I HAVE SEEN some of your posts over at "S.O.L." Ugh-Oh!..........

peteL,

I thought you might be using Barakudas, they are about the best Euro pellet made, great profile and thick skirt walls. Highest B/C of euro pells too

Beeman calls them the "Kodiak" and jacks the price up here in the US. I've random sampled a bunch for weight and dimension - NO DIFF but the purty labels - Imagine That????? First place - Damn FINE SHOOTING! Bullseye or Field Target?

Off to fondle my Whiscombe JW-75 [.177,5mm ,.22, & .25 caliber Lothar Walther barrels] and sulk ;-)

peteR
By-Gawd, West Virginny, U.S.A.! - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 19:52:01 (ZULU)

Good news,

The old man was forced to watch the golf with mom, doesn't know a thing about golf....But the golf is in Troon this week, which I could see the links from here if I had to..So he phoned today and now the folks are comin over....Pete, Jon, Val, we gotta mission, the original is coming to town......I'd like to get them roond scotland, round ireland, back to scotland, to england for a bit, to germany, to holland, and back home....how many weeks I need for that??

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 21:29:04 (ZULU)

FCS,

I have 3 Borders spun on right now and one waiting for my match rifle to burn up. I HIGHLY recommend them. The easiest cleaning tubes I've used. Not that I've had too many, but for a 6.5x284 to clean up in less than 10 minutes, with no scrubbing is amazing.

My 6BR has over 500 rounds through it now. The throat has moved exactly .001"! This is a 6 groove, not the vaunted 5R, but it shot me a 199-14X at 600, from a sling no less. It's shaping up to be one of my favorite rifles, (and my wifes as she shoots it far more than I) and I'll likley be getting a 5R 6mm to build a 6XC on for next season.

Anyone contemplating a Border purchase, I say go for it. If you look at who's barrels are winning internationally, you'll see the Border name up on top in LOTS of the matches. Only trouble is, if these catch on and drive the prices up I'll be pissed. ;))

FatBoy...

Chris
Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 02:24:36 (ZULU)

Pete R,

"Unfortunately for you, I HAVE SEEN some of your posts over at "S.O.L."

Ahem, um, if you're referring to certain stories that may or may not have happened....or certain names that surfaced because of them..... I plead the fifth.

Man, give these folks time to get to know me before I get a ration of grief! HA!

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 06:43:41 (ZULU)

Joe S, glad things are back on track bud.. i was thinkin about you. and yep, you get yer butt over the pond in March just at the right time for the IWA and i will drive you to Nurnberg and back, should be a great weekend as there are quite a few of us euro roster hawgs going.

JR, you want to visit krautland just gimmie a bell.

pete r yep baracudas, i am about run out and my mate Geoff the ex royal marine (wish he would get his ass on here) is looking after my HW 90 and my spaniel whilst im on me hols, they have been dramaticaly reducing the pesky rabbit population in all the Brit Army camps at home.

marlin fishing later today

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 09:55:01 (ZULU)

Vaughn: There goes the neighborhood ... lol

Joe S: Dude, before long, I'd have you picking flowers in a sun dress ...

Headed to Missouri.

Later men.

brian k. sain
Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 15:10:57 (ZULU)

HOGs anyone ever seen anything to support the 408 Chey Tac claims of 2000 plus yard head shots? Seems like about as much BS as I have ever heard.

JR thinking about a 260 to get built, you have any bbls that would work for the heavy bullets?

Cant we all just get along.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
ca, - Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 18:18:34 (ZULU)

Damn Joe, I'm still coming to terms with the rejection. JR your just jealous I didn't make the play for you first. I'll wait till your on your way home for good before I try to tie you in a marriage of convenience. Just hope Bush doesn't outlaw same sex marriages too soon ;-)

JR, same goes for me as Pete, if I can be of assistance with your folks I'll be more than happy to help out.

Been looking at rifle prices over in the US. I thought the reason American stuff was dear here was because of all the import duty and stuff, and same with European stuff with you guys. I assumed Euro guns would be cheaper here. Found new Sako 75 in the US for $900USD something. The things are over £1000GBP here. Just remember the exchange rate is £1 to $1.80 odd. I'm tired of getting ripped off for everything in this country. See above plan to resolve the situation ;-)

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 19:03:12 (ZULU)

RE: 2000 yard head shots. Mike, get me one of those rifles and 500 rounds of ammo, and I'll try to make one. Artillery is a better option at that range, though, or tac air.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 19:44:09 (ZULU)

2000y headshots.

Everyone gets lucky once and a while. I hit a swimming snake in the head 30yards out with an arrow that had no fletching or head. Dumb luck,, but a hit. Witnessed!!

I'd like to know how the 408 does against hard targets and light armor. A task more suited to a rifle like that. IF it does better than the 50 Barrets and the 50 McMillans,, than it could be an option worth exploring.

I'd also like to see Sierra start making lead core bulets and Lapua, Winchester, etc start making brass. When it becomes as affordable or more so than a 50 cal, it will catch on and become a viable option for recreational shooters.

FatBoy...

Chris
Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 19:51:14 (ZULU)

Vaughn, Geoff M and I are from your neck o' the woods--actually, a bunch of us here are from there. I'm here, not there, or there would be here if I was home....which I am not. I'm here. And here is starting to suck for all the wrong reasons:

Leave an army idle and it does the devil's work. Instead of hunting down the BGs, we are getting busy pretending we're stateside. Roadside checks for proper paper work (on base of course, their too chicken to play chicken shit games out in indian country) and uniform nazis at every corner. Heheh, it does drive them to distraction when my crew happens by. Nuthin about our uniforms resembles theirs. And the shorts/ tees really spin them up. It is not what we ought to be focusing on. The morons may not know a 9-line medevac format, but by-gawd they know a soft cap hanging from the cargo pocket... hell, even the ranges at Bragg are easier to get than what we have here these days. I had to go and mediate, explain and smooth over "our" policy vs. theirs today. Waste of daylight. After a while, I finally got through their thick-ass heads that we do not fall under their COC until you get to the Combined command level. Ours is a separate world within these borders---much to thier chagrin. Demo one, garritroops zero.

Steve S: In between all this parade-ground BS I took some photos of the markings and action, both stripped and assembled for you. Big files (max-resolution), and my server is very limited on bandwidth out here. Once I am "back" in my "normal" hangout I will send them pronto. I need a good connection to get them out.

Been delayed by a series of delays. I shoulda been back in the big house by now sippin' near beer and livin' large. Be a few more days yet. Morgue is staying (poor bastard). They'll probably hold him down and shave his chin when I leave----he'd make a walrus jealous. Heheh.

Pete L: The HK is marked "Safe-Economical-Fun" but what does it really stand for? My Deutch is rusty...bigtime.

Demo

Demo
Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 23:53:57 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Got word from Joe Mahon today, he wanted me to let you know that Peanut has had her last chemo session. Monthly checkups to continue, but the prognosis is a likely cure. Great news!

I tried some Black Hills 68 grain heavy match in the 1/8 DPMS barreled AR today. Ten shot groups at 100 yards ran 2.0, 2.1, and 2.1" shooting off a sandbag. I was a little disappointed. I haven't had a serious range session in a long time, so my groups were running about .5" bigger than usual. However, this is still not as good as I had hoped, I have shot better than that with Winchester white box M193. I believe the DPMS barrel has a .223 chamber vs. 5.56mm or Wylde chamber. Thoughts?

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 01:22:35 (ZULU)

Demo,

Incoming mail through Sniper Country.

Joe

Joe
PA, USA - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 01:29:26 (ZULU)

re: H&K SEF selector markings:

http://www.calzaretta.com/long%20guns.html

S= Sicher (tsichaar) 'Safe'

E= Einzelfeuer-- (Ine-tsell-foyer) Literal translation is 'single fire'. Semi-auto in English.

F= Feuerstoß (pronounced foyer-schtoss) Literal translation is 'fire blast' or full automatic in English.

An alternate English explanation is:

S= Safe

E= Economical

F= Fun

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 01:57:37 (ZULU)

re: lucky shots

I managed *once* to hit a vertical cut piece of wooden 4x4 at a 1000 meters with a .308W and knock it over. (secondary target).

I was using a Ruger at the time :-)

Of course, such occasional occurances do not make that rifle/cartridge combo a consistent 4" target system for 1000 meter distances.

I would be skeptical about consistent 2000 yd head shots with any conventional rifle, simply because time of flight is so long that even small wind variance would have major deflection effects.

There is also the not-so-small detail that MOA at 2000 yds is approx. 20", even if wind and other deflection factors are constant.

Now, if you could make something man-portable launching good-sized projectiles at 4000+ fps that had a high ballistic coefficient you would significantly improve your odds dealing with the wind.

Here's an article on .408 C that I found on the web :-)

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/408CheyTac.asp

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 02:57:50 (ZULU)

Demo,

Turns out Geoff and I are much closer in proximity than I knew....

Be safe dude,

Vaughn

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 04:55:05 (ZULU)

Re:2000 yd head shots...

Get a grip.... cant be done....oh wait fantasy land....

Can a rifle hold a 10" group at 2000 yds...sure why not? Thats a .5 moa shot. But to claim hitting a human head at 2000 yds is stupid. Are we talking 1st round on a human head that will move around while talking, farting etc? Its stupid claims like this that add to the Walter Mitty factor of paper punching "snipers". Who is claiming this?

When hitting human targets is mixed with "paper punching" the result is often fantasy.

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 05:26:03 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Well said!! I don't know where all this BS comes from. I shoot at paper plates out to a 1000yds an there are days I can hit them an then there are days I have a hard time hitting the backer there on.

Like Chris said, "Everyone gets lucky once in awhile" an thats all it is. The 408 may or may not be a great rifle but nothing is going to shoot quarter minute at 2000yds an thats what you would need to hit a head size target "IF" you could see it that far. Thats just like the 1000 an 1500yd prairie dog shots these guys claim to make. If the range is "Actually" at 1000 or 1500yds they don't tell you how many barrels they burned up trying to hit one.

Pat
Monday, July 19, 2004, at 12:01:23 (ZULU)

FCS,

Looks like I'll make SOA, plan to drive out the 24th, thats a great, well run match, in my favorite part of the country. Hope to see you there. Your in NM right?

I'm good for a couple Borders, guess I'll PM JR on the details, maybe Otto will give us a dealers discount. ;~}}. With any luck we can get in on his end of Augest shipment

Two barrels is enough for now as I'm working on wringing out a couple others for next April, so far so good, last nite at the 200 punched a 5 shot .366 outside to outside. probably a fluke. But i'll take it :~o. see what happens tonite with the Kreiger and a new batch of powder.

Are you running 1.25 straight cyl 6.5? Do you use a tow pintle to move it around like another unnamed rosterfarian from WV?

JR, Just tugging your chain a little on Aug delivery. I am used to waiting 'several' months for barrels, just hate to see the SA's have an 'unfair advantage'through the use of your uncompromising sticks. I will PM details.

Lindy, Are you going to make SOA?

Regards, x

xshooter
flatland, ohio, - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 12:08:12 (ZULU)

Hey Steve,

Finck looks like it has some good products. I'll have to try some of the Wilderness and seegars, now that I can relax a bit.

Last 10 days were all range time, very busy and long hours. Was fun and gratifying (at least I got to hear a lot of gunfire), but ready for a break. Tuesday heat index broke 110, and I'm not used to constant movement in that heat anymore, hah!

I can only imagine what our troops are facing, heat wise.

John L

John L
Mid-MO, U.S.A., USA - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 14:48:42 (ZULU)

You gotta love this judge!!!!!!

JUDGE WILLIAM YOUNG, SENTENCES THE SHOE BOMBER

U.S. District Court Judge William Young made the following statement in sentencing "shoe bomber" Richard Reid to prison. It is noteworthy, and deserves to be remembered far longer than he predicts. (Read every word! Pray for more judges like this one.)

"January 30, 2003, United States vs. Reid. Judge Young: "Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you. "On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General. "On counts 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other. "That's 80 years. "On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years consecutive to the 80 years just imposed. The Court imposes upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate fine of $2 million. "The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. "The Court imposes upon you the $800 special assessment. "The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life sentences so I need go no further. "This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and just sentence. It is a righteous sentence. "Let me explain this to you: We are not afraid of any of your terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been through the fire before. "There is all too much war talk here. And I say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court, where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for individuals as individuals, as human beings we reach out for justice, you are not an enemy combatant. "You are a terrorist. "You are not a soldier in any war. "You are a terrorist. "To give you that reference, to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature. "Whether it is the officers of government who do it or your attorney who does it, or that happens to be your view, "You are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. "We do not sign documents with terrorists. "We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice. So war talk is way out of line in this court. "You are a big fellow. But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know warriors. You are a terrorist. "A species of criminal guilty of multiple attempted murders. "In a very real sense Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were and he said you're no big deal. "You are no big deal". "What your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific. "What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? "I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I asked you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty, and admit you are guilty of doing. "And I have an answer for you. "It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record it comes as close to understanding as I know. It seems to me you hate the one thing that is most precious: You hate our freedom. "Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, and to believe or not believe as we individually choose. "Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it everywhere from sea to shining sea. "It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that everyone can see, truly see, that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely. "It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf, have filed appeals, and will go on in their representation of you before other judges. "We are about it. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. "Make no mistake though: It is yet true that we will bear any burden, pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. "Look around this courtroom. Mark it well "The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. Day after tomorrow it will be forgotten. But this, however, will long endure. Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice. Justice, not war. Individual justice is in fact being done. "The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged. And juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically -- to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice. "See that flag Mr. Reid? "That is the flag of the United States of America. "That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom. It always will. "Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down."

(How much of this Judge's comments did you hear on our TV sets? ZERO!Everyone needs to hear what this judge had to say.)

Fred - out

Fred
USA - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 18:19:59 (ZULU)

Demo,

Good news on Peanut eh!! She must be a tough cookie, I bet it's been a long ride...

Jon,

You need help..ha!! Sick, isn't it, US v UK gun prices, you'd think with the dollar being down, prices would be down here...Nope..in fact I wouldn't doubt they've went up!!

xshooter and FCS,

I'll send you my email address thru the roaster..

2000 yd head shots?

yep, those are common..eh??

Sis just emailed, her Guard unit is now with the 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit, she says the guys say they feel pretty darned safe....ha..

later

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 19:04:44 (ZULU)

I hit a crow in the top of a Pecan tree at 75yds with a .22 once.

Once I even dialed the scope on Savage 30-06 out to 300yds. Put the first round 1/2" high, should have quit then. The rest were scattered all over a 2' square.

Able One

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 20:17:53 (ZULU)

Mike, going for the sentry, eh? Getting close to crows is excellent stalking. Them crows know terrain too; I usually run out of cover well outside of 75 yards. Used to mortar them with my .22 anyway. Now I've been popping them with a .223 for that reason...actually, the hits are more spectacular---but we won't tell the missus that...

Been looking for a 2000 yard shot here. Would have to shoot across the base, across friendlies, to find the range due to the terrain, veg (yeah, trees), and BUAs. I think I'd just walk on up to the berm and take my shot at less than 500 yards. These bad guys are not very obliging to that kind of LR shot. All that open expanse of flat ass desert just down the road---and these fucks hide in the towns and vilages. As for the harder targets. I like the current set-up at the checkpoints. Volume of fire in Ma-Deuce and the 240s will definately disable a vehicle. A Bolt gun may or may not have the desired effect---too many variables. Still, I am sure that Cheytac has a use. I am also sure it will gather much dust waiting for that "right moment." I for one do not want to carry it around wishing for a mortar crew to fuck up and set the tube in a big open area with LOS to my position. On the other hand, I could shoot at the flying pigs as I wait....

I am sure it is a great weapon...I just can't see the need currently. If ya tried to give it to me right now, I'd turn it down flat. Or, I'd trade it for a M24 with a raptor. Even up.

Demo

Demo
Monday, July 19, 2004, at 21:56:52 (ZULU)

Hi guys,

My name is Dean and I am the guy that used to be the shooter at Cheytac on the .408. My company is Sniping Operations Executive (www.snipingoperationsexecutive.org).

I have posted several written test results there on the .408 while I worked on the development team. Tactical Intervention can verify this.

Headshots at 2700? No likely. The reps claims of torso shots at 3000 meters, again, not remotely likely. By accident yes, like a .50 at 2430 meters, the recent "record". Accidental after multiple shots, it can be done. Intentionally, scientifically, with 1st or 2nd round intent, less than .01% odds.

Let me put this into real numbers. To put a 1st round shot on a 20" chest sized target at 3000 meters means that you would have to know the range to an allowable error of only:

Range within 3 meters due to fall angle and corrosponding danger space.

At sea level, the elevation setting is 237.75 Minutes of Angle. Think of how many sights have that many minutes of elevation.

An air temperature variation of 5 degrees F is an error of 3 minutes of angle of elevation at 3000 meters.

A man target is a around .50 minutes of angle wide at that range.

Correction for coriolis if you're shooting north at 41 degrees latitude is 1.25 MOA.

Correction for spin drift is 1.95 MOA.

Both above result in a miss if uncorrected for.

Wind determination allowable error for a miss is less than 1 mph at that range.

Flight time is 7.32 seconds.

NO WIND ELEVATION SETTING IS LEFT 3.25 MINUTES. How many guys would guess that?

1 mph of windage at that range is good for 1.50 MOA of windage. Human target is .50 minute wide, placing the allowable error at less than 1/3 mph.

I shot the .408 until SOE seperated from CheyTac as a result of the above claims that are made. If guys want real info on the .408, check into the website, or write me. I'll let you know.

dean
Monday, July 19, 2004, at 22:28:48 (ZULU)

Hey Dean,

Was just talking about you last week down at Benning at the sniper school. A son of one of the owners of Cheytac is a student down there this course. Said you had split off. Good luck.

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 22:49:19 (ZULU)

WARNING!!!!! DON'T OPEN ANY EMAIL WHERE "ANIMALS" IS THE SUBJECT OR IN THE MESSAGE BODY. IT IS THE NEWEST AND NASTIEST VIRUS OUT THERE. I GOT TWO TODAY. MY WIFE SIAD ONE SINGLE COMPUTER IN IRAQ WAS AFFECTED..

DIRTY STEVE, Back to lurk mode, Out.

Steve Dickerson
A Swift and Horrible Death to Our Enemies!, Texas, U. S. of A! - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 22:55:02 (ZULU)

HOGs, first the claims came not from Dean. The head shot crap was on another website. The company has made some pretty interesting claims and Dean seems to have cleared it up. Heck Dean sounds like we agree.

Freakin sucks you dont work with them anymore. Frankly as far as I can see you have been the man behind the 408. Good luck with your next venture.

Demo, I would take a M24 with Raptor over most things doing what you are. Nothing like owning the night and day. With that said I would love one for base and patrol overwatch anyday. No doubt you can reach out with one. Not as my primary but at times it would be perfect.

Been giving it alot opf thought. The PD seems to want to retire me for my injuries. If thta happens I will be teaching classes year round (Will need to make up the money some where) How many would want to see Pistol, carbine, shotgun and sniper rifle classes in Central California at 150.00 each per day?

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 22:56:27 (ZULU)

Interesting commentary concerning hitting anything (except maybe the ground) at 2k yds. Sort of reminds one of the old saw, "while there's lead in the air, there's hope" (usually of the FullAuto or fantasy land crowd?). Interesting, but not practical short of arty or air.

Just to let y'all know, I'm embarked on a mission improbable (?).... a PacNor stainless supermatch barrel in stock configuration (right down to the bayonet lugs) on an Enfield NO4 MK1*. I have a scope mount out of a piece of angle iron (hell for stout at any rate)... hope to make some folks at IPSC "manually operated rifle" matches think twicet about what they see. Its sort of fun (in a rifle crank sort of way) to put near 4 times the cost of the original weapon back into just the barrel, simply in order to sneak up on someone in a match somewhere. I'll let you know how it goes when I get it back from the smithy. Maybe I'll make a headshot at 2k yds too!

Along that line, does anyone know where to find an original Enfield NO4 MK1* (T) comb add-on?

And, another question: Does anyone know of a manufacturer of "folding ammo" carriers, a la Blackhawk, that will work for a 30-06? (my "long range target rifle"...Politically Correct terminology) is an IBA 30-06...lotsa fun with 200g Sierras.

Keep on keepin' on, and Thanks from the bottom of my heart to all those who serve...civilian or military.

Steve
MileHi Butte, Montana, America - Monday, July 19, 2004, at 23:04:13 (ZULU)

JR,

Sent you an e-mail through roster so we can get some 5Rs to the states for us F-class guys!

May you and your folks have a great time!! Make the barrels after you get in a great visit and are all relaxed / stress free!!

Dean,

Nice to get some honest evals of the 408!

Xshooter,

Yep, I'm in NM; about 3.5 hours south of Raton. I'm doing my best to juggle the schedule so that I can shoot all of SOA. I'd hate to miss out on the amount of team shooting experience I could pick up at SOA.

Nice shooting!! 0.366 for 5 at 200, that has gotta make you smile!!

Expect an e-mail from me via roster, would like to chat with you off roster about a couple of things.

Signing off for now, got brass to form & case necks to turn!!

FCS

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 01:24:30 (ZULU)

Guys,

Local news ran a segment on the 505 Restaurant. They make their own salsas and green chile sauce, and sell it in the grocery stores around here. It's great.

505 because that's the area code for the whole damn state!

They started packaging it in 1.5 oz. packets for use in their restaurant. Somebody got the bright idea that it might perk up MRE's.

They are trucking 54,000 packs of salsa and 54,000 packs of green chile sauce down to Holloman AFB for delivery to Iraq.

May God bless these patriots.

Got a check from Garth at Leupold, we're up to $55.87.

Safety tip:

Don't leave a butane lighter in your truck.

Had a spare in my overhead console, between the sunvisors. An open compartment, no door on it.

Nevertheless, when it blew from the heat, it scattered orange plastic shrapnel across the back seat of the pickup, and destroyed the console. Found the damage this morning.

Happy I wasn't puffing on a Camel at 75 mph when it let go. I'd be getting skin grafts for 10 years, if I lived through the incident.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 01:26:39 (ZULU)

Hi all, still around.

Little over a month until heading over to the box. Got schooled up on some new comm and photo gear.

Remember long ago when Sinister and I went back and forth about snipers with digital cameras and such? Well he was right, and the USMC bought the good stuff, better than anything any other green side, nonsneaky forces are using, for right now anyways. So cool, the Bn stole the gear to pass message traffic for the line companies. Well, we did our SASO exercise and that shit got canc'd right quick. Would have been nice to get the gear to play with sooner. Two monthes isn't enough time when you're busy doing other stuff too.

Off to 29 Palms for more training on Tuesday. Should be fun. Learning how to use UAV's and some other stuff.

Not enough live fire time. I'm taking block leave 7-15 Aug back in Chicago. Gonna burn the barrel out of my AR getting my personal training in because after leave I get on the plane to Iraq. Anybody want to help me kill barrels doing close range rifle-pistol work in Chicago, let me know. melendykj at 1mardiv dot usmc dot mil

Semper Fidelis...Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 02:42:23 (ZULU)

Geoff M;

I have some of the Black Hills 68gr match ammo. I use it in my Savage heavy barreled rifle. The barrel has a 1-9 twist and 24" length.

I can't get under 1.5 MOA no matter what conditions I'm shooting in. I don't know if it's the powder or bullets. I was thinking it was me until a few others started posting about it.

The SD on the chrono was around 23 or 25. Can't remember the MV.

Heads shots;

Maybe they were referring to the heads on Mt. Rushmore.

Steve;

What caliber is the Enfield going to be?

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 02:47:29 (ZULU)

FCS;been off to gun show. Haven't read the mail yet but will get to it. Expect reply.

Dean' never thought I'd see you within .408 range of this place. I was shootin head shots at 2000 the other morning and having trouble findin my loads between shots when my wife shook my arm and said,"Hey, do you know it's 20 minutes after 7". Pull up a chair. WE need all the input we can get.

Brogers
Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 03:00:58 (ZULU)

Brogers,

Got it! Reply sent...No attachements.

FCS

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 05:05:05 (ZULU)

Anyone know of a "Mil dots for DUMMIES" or "doping wind for DUMMIES" type book/manual? Also, how can I change my password for this site to something easier to remember?

Spurrit
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 05:57:25 (ZULU)

Spurrit,

Hmmmm.....easiest way I've found to remember password involves "post-it" note stuck to monitor. Since I started posting more, seems to be getting easier to remember.

Mil-dots for dummies....closest thing I can think of to make life easier is the Mil-Dot Master. I've not really done much ranging with the mil-dots but it is approximately 3.9 MOA per 100 for 1 miliradian(actually, 3.9 MOA at 110yards but that is beauty of approx.) so if you know how tall, wide,....then you can divide 3.9 into that and get yards for a rough range. More back of envelope type guessetimating then ranging. Ya all feel free to correct me cause I've been known to be wrong on occassion.

Doping wind for dummies......well, if wind is blowing R to L, hold R. Wind is blowing L to R, hold L. If wind and mirage are not going the same way, wait for a little while and they should match up. Avoid shooting in straight boil, does wierd things; at least for me it does.

Pick one bullet and shoot it as much as possible. Only way you are going to learn how much to hold off / adjust for given condition. Not that I followed this advice but....pick one rifle/caliber and shoot that for at least a year. One rifle for one year, hard as it is to do that you'll learn more and learn faster. I'd suggest that rifle be capable of sub MOA accuracy, otherwise you are not going to learn much. Never know if it was you, the ammo, the scope, the wind.....the rest.

I did not really start to learn how to dope for wind until I got a rifle capable of 0.5 MOA or better. I had 70 HBV 308 that was a solid 0.75 MOA rifle; everything I though I knew went out the window when I got my dedicated F-class rifle that is solid 0.5 MOA (or better when I do my part).

Guess where I'm going with this is....make sure that rifle is capable of letting you learn how to dope for conditions.

Hope there was some useful information in that ramble!! ;-)

FCS

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 06:21:37 (ZULU)

Gents,

Spurrit, MSGT Jim Owen, USMC(Ret.) has a web site and produces a series of small books that will help with wind doping. Mine are loaned out. A web search should net you his URL.

The books are resonably priced. Reading the Wind is particulary informative.

Best way to learn wind doping is by shooting in it!

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 06:24:14 (ZULU)

Ken M.

You have mail. N/A.

Dean,

Don't be such a stranger.

Demo,

If you see a pig flyin, do a double take and make sure it ain't a cowboy in an airboat.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 12:33:02 (ZULU)

Actually, there's a good article on mildots available right here on SniperCountry. Just click on my name below for the link.

Kent Gooch also wrote a good one, which is, alas, no longer available on the web site I found it on. I sent him a note asking if I could post the copy of it I have on my hard disk to my web server, so people could access it, but I never got a reply.

And a mil-radian is 3.6 inches at 100 yards. It's also 10 centimeters at 100 meters, which is devilishly handy.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 12:53:27 (ZULU)

John,

If Demo sees flyin' pigs he's in a good place.

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 13:06:47 (ZULU)

Hi Guys,

Good to talk to you again. Been following the sites for a while, not being able to comment on stuff along the way. Getting ready to depart out of country on stuff, but I will have access to email and checking the sites.

Any questions you have on the .408, please let me know. It really is something special regardless of stuff that goes on. The computer is the real deal though.

Take care, talk later,

Dean

triggerfifty
Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 14:12:24 (ZULU)

Hey Dean,

Were you at Sniperweek in Tampa this last March? Shooting that baby was a highlight of the week. Too bad there wasn't a longer distance available.

Vaughn

Vaughn Johnson
WI, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 16:38:34 (ZULU)

Gents,

On lucky shots...I got a crow, out of a tree, at a measured 260 yards. Upon retrieval, it was discovered the bullet had gone through the eye/brain. This with a .22 LR in a peep sighted Winchester Model 67 single shot!

Witnessed by my father and sister.

Tried a repeat later that day. Dad offered to buy me a high grade O/U shotgun if I could do it again. Needlesss to say the second bird flew away, but I did manage to shoot off the small branch he was sitting on...

All for now...duty calls.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 16:43:48 (ZULU)

BKS- If the sun dress is a little yellow job with a deep plunging neck line and you throw in dinner and movie...we'll talk LOL

Steve- My Eagle folding ammo pouch fits 30-06 just fine. I just went and douple checked just to be sure.

Geoff M- I got a bunch of BH 68 match once and tried it in every "good shooting".223 I have. PSS, LTR, Savage, Wilson barrel service rifle and Colt 6724. It never shot worth a s*#t. Now I know why I got such a good deal on it. No more of that stuff unless it's free. Now their 77 gr stuff works great in my sticks.

OK back to work, teaching later this week and house shopping. $750,000 for what we want in this area for petes sake. Sometimes I get so mad that Gaby and our realator just walk away from me. It's my money...I can be mad when I spend it !! I wish I was 12 again =)

Take it easy,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kalifornia, Hail the red white and blue - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 00:15:27 (ZULU)

Dean, glad you stopped in.

I hereby pubically and humbly apologize to Dean for an exchange occuring on this here roster some two years hence.

Dean, an old friend is here; we discussed the gyrene's new toy (408) and you came up. Turns out "he" knows ya, and speaks very highly of you. That, from him, is all I need---you're good people, and I hope you stick around.

Mt Rushmore...damn, I spit coffee all over my DCUs.

Cowboy in an airboat??? Double damn, just ran outta coffee...

Sir Wes: A shot like that qualifies for a Baroncy! To miss by what? Six inches low a second time? That is the kingdom, my man. King Wes...all hail. Send me some pointers...my 22 drops like a rock at an ever-decreasing radiused arc that I cannot figure past 150 or so on paper, let alone small black birds in a cornfield!

Maybe I need a newer, betterer 22? Hey now...

Oh yeah, almost forgot: Tomorrow I start moving...

Home.

Damn right! I will scare up a bird headin' my way, hit my (temp) home base and pack, do some paperwork, then scare up another, larger bird to Kuwait. A few more odd pieces of paper, then the ride to Minnie...

Be huggin on the wife and kids in 10-15 days.

Huge surprise for me. A series of happy events transpired in the last 24 hours...and in the end, I benefit from another groups' early withdrawal.

Thoughts: I get told earlier, "hey thanks dude...great job. That's all we have, wanna go home now?" Uhh, yeah...sure. Yep, that easy (after 15 months, i guess it should be). Now, I think about that...pretty cool deal. I can do it. I have contacts, know people who know people. Trans is not a problem. But...always a but. I hate to be cut free here, of all places! If I wasn't so fond of airtravel, I would be well and truly screwed! Getting out of here could be a huge problem. OK, so I have an in with the AV-8-Tors, but if I didn't---hitch-hiking would be the way. Maybe with a contractor group, or a unit...heheh. If I wasn't good with trans, man would I be pissed! But, really...I am too damned happy to go home to sweat it. The fuck who gave me the pass has no idea whether I can make travel (as i said, I can, but he doesn't know that or care). I think I will remember that in case I run into him again someday. I owe this little shit one...upside his melon.

Well, other than being cast adrift way out here...I am one happy demo!

Next post from the palace, one after that from my old stomping grounds...third from the hacienda.

Demo

Demo
Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 01:17:19 (ZULU)

Demo, really glad you're headed home! Now get your butt back here so we can start addressing you with your proper sir-name SIR!

Joe S., was that a type on $750,000????? Hell, I could by a 8 or 9,000 square foot house and a couple hundred acres here for that much dinero.

Bolt
NC, - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 01:47:51 (ZULU)

Demo,

Out-bloody-standing! First the great news about Peanut and now this! If for some strange reason they are going to run you thru St. Looie on the way to Minnie let me know and I'll drive over there to buy you a toddy or ten on the way thru.

Cheers and keep checking six,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 02:06:23 (ZULU)

Gents: message recieved. Try the 77's!

Anybody else get an "out of office" message from Pete L?

Demo: beer? ;-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 02:54:33 (ZULU)

Demo, I second "Doc's" Out-bloody-standing!!! Now just be sure not to let your 6 get uncovered in the joy of heading home! Lets get you home in one piece then let the partying begin!!! Also glad to hear the Peanut is doing so well, KNOW you'll be glad to get home and see that little munchkin!

Stay safe and report in as you can! And remember the offer to come to BadLands we talked about 8 or 9 months ago! Still holds!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 04:35:33 (ZULU)

Bolt- No kidding the average house (3 bed 2 bath) in San Diego county goes for about 450-500K now. For 3/4 million we'll get a 4 bed 3 bath, 3 car garage and pool. Still on a basic plot with danger close neighbors. Wages here are less then 118 miles north in LA too. We call it the sunshine tax. Such is life.

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kalifornia, Hail the red white and blue - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 09:47:20 (ZULU)

Demo,

My Henry .22 youth model lever action will consistently drop rounds into a gopher hole at around 200 yds. (with the bottom of the front sight in the back sight!) Move barrel to cover target. I don't know about longer distances, might hafta spraypaint hole orange, or something.

-Travis Morgan

P.S.-Apuila super maximums are THE SHIT! Dumps a LOT of burnt sulphur in the action, but I wouldn't have an excuse to play w/my guns if they were always clean!

Thanks to FCS and Sir Wes for the info. Now all I need is a friggin' translation!

FCS,

I'm shooting a large ring mauser '98 .30-06 w/22" barrel, 6x lyman (which is getting replaced w/a 4-12x40 leupold), and a bi-pod.

Spurrit
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 11:05:48 (ZULU)

Demo,

Congrats, Sir! If you connect in Indy for Minn. gimme a hour or so notice an I'll meet ya in the lounge for a NEAR beer.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 12:12:17 (ZULU)

Steve,

Tell me about your 30-06 "long range target rifle" and the 200g Sierra load you shoot. I have the same setup and have a great 190SMK load.

Don

Don K.
Burdett, NY, Under God in the USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 12:13:12 (ZULU)

Demo,

Great news! Hope to meet you after you get re-aquanted with the family.

Stay safe.

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 12:16:30 (ZULU)

Demo, We are all very happy for you! Your posts have really energized the Roster and I know rhe ripple effect of your impact is large both in the US and abroad!

Thank you for your service!

Bolt, the real estate prices in Undude and my next of the woods would give you a heart attack at about twice of what Joe S. was posting!

Insanity, but I paid it....

Michael
SJ, CA, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 13:11:33 (ZULU)

>>>Anybody else get an "out of office" message from Pete L?<<<

Geoff M, I also got one. Strangest damn thing. Damn nice of the Piggy Poker to let us all know!

Just hoping it wasn't some super-secret, MI6-type computer virus that will have us all talking with an accent! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 13:57:35 (ZULU)

Demo,

Good to hear you'll soon be on the way home!

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 14:29:22 (ZULU)

Gents,

On my way to work. We bid today for our next six months "position". Damn, I hate this, but it goes with the job...

Demo, that shot was pretty darn lucky. I was 17 at the time, had the hardness/steadyness of youth, and eyesight of an eagle. Oh, did I mention "the luck of the Irish"?

Which brings me to the the question; Are the Irish really lucky?

Good news on your return. Will be nice to know your christian name, or are you still going to go by "Demo"?

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 16:45:39 (ZULU)

Sir Wes, King of the crows! I will revert back to all my bad habits---including using my name here.

First leg complete. Arrived at home-base; arranging second leg into Kuwait at first light.

Trip notes: Flew a screen bird for a VIP flight. We got the shitty route of course. Right over the roof tops of every little village and 'burb of west Baghdad. Intent to draw eyes away from the other pair. Yesterday, I mentioned how I like air travel:

Caveat: Make that air travel that doesn't invole being bait!

Speed is security though---no harm no foul! I found myself wishing I was at the controls of my armed bird doing that same route. Lead bird flys like a bat outta hell, over flies surprised BGs and flips the emergency switches on spot. Trail bird makes downed AC marker the "target" as it pops on imagery and just comes in with the guns rockin. It would work beautifully. I sent same to some buds doing this shit. Maybe they can increase their ordnance expenditures a bit, eh? We've lost a few birds rolling back around. Surprise is gone, and it is our turn to be surprised at how accurate an RPG is when weilded by a trained terr. Bad ju-ju.

Hell, I had nuthin' better to do sitting back there on the side door. I was limited to a straight side view of very blurry buildings!

Demo, first leg complete of three towards home!

Demo
Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 18:29:55 (ZULU)

Demo,

Thanks for the compliment, and you're apology is humbly accepted. I needless to say have said a few controversial items on this site, but the bunch is good here.

Thanks Mike for the clearup on the "headshot at 2700 meters", I hate that crap. I stand behind each and every claim that I make. At times, i'm elusive and hard to find, but I usually check in.

BTW, 338 Lapua, been getting familiar with my old Longbow, and using N170 powder under some Sierra 300 gr. MKs, can get 2875 fps. Nice speed. My quest now is to find a load and bullet that can run with the .408. It's out there, the Lost River 270 gr. 338 J40 is great, but yaws at the crown, causing short range group shortfalls (1" @ 100 yds), BUT, at 1500 it's a half minute gun, using that bullet. Hard to get guys to accept that a gun at 100 doing 1" can group tighter minutes at long range.

Oh well, that might get some discussion going. Take care all,

Dean

Trigger
Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 21:06:03 (ZULU)

Demo; Godspeed my man.

Trigger; I've several rifles do me that way. Can't always explain it but it do happen. Gyro effect being slightly overcome by some gravity fight up front I suspect. Lots of unexplained things in the rifle business but at least YOU try to come to terms with it with your computer and all. We get too much faith in old methods and too set in our ways and beliefs in legend for our own good. Fact is the elusive one, and blind faith the enemy. Our first question should be."How can this be? As opposed to ... "This can't be!" It would serve us all better.

Brogers
Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 22:31:28 (ZULU)

SPURRIT

Web sight for Jim Owens jarheadtop.com I have several of his publications, they are worth the money.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 22:57:27 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

I hope that most of the readers and lurkers here at the DR won't run across the virus you warned us against. Then again, knowing you, the sites or e-mail messages that have "animals" in them also have unclothed young nubiles....you forget, I've seen you on the internet at work!

Spoke to my new Army of One yesterday. She's getting along just fine in AIT, loves 88M. She was so surprised that they now treat her almost like a real human being...I told her that would happen. All the newbies out of her original platoon, Co. A, have been given heads up that they are definitely headed to the sandbox, if they have the appropriate MOS. 88M, she says she's going as well if she doesn't break something at Benning. Oh, well. Amazing how Dad can be proud as hell and scared as hell in the same heartbeat. I suppose it was the same for our dads when we first shipped out, huh? The line moves forward...

The Salvage continues to spread grins. 1/4 moa groups at 100 are now boringly commonplace, starting to see .5" groups out to 300 now. Decided to give Varget another try, since it's a little faster on the burning rate chart than AA2520, and that was giving me a little bit of a muzzle flash at night. Jeez, the groups tightened up by about .25 moa across the board with the 175 SMK's. Back to two different loads.

Anyone else thinking of the Advanced Phase II at Badlands in November? LMK.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 21, 2004, at 23:16:41 (ZULU)

Hell Joe, on what I make I couldn't afford to live in a matchbox out there. I reckon I'll stick to North Carolina. I'm poor, but almost happy. Wonder if I could ship my house out there and sell it?

ATTENTION>>>>>>>>>>>

Butner F-class match in two weeks, July 31 and August 1. Wind, hotter than hell and dry as a bone. Should be fun. At least JRMoore won't be there to gas us!

Next match will be in late August. If you want misery (not like in Iraq I imagine), shoot at Butner in August! There is NO deoderant in the world made to fight them fumes that come off them sweaty pits!

Time for retirement(partial anyway)......

Well, as Lito and I discussed months ago, it appears that I may retire the rod and reel repair business on my 50th birthday in September. Work has gotten so slow that it isn't even worth filling out Uncle Sugar's quarterly paperwork anymore. Working two or three jobs for the past 25 years has finally got to me. Will probably still build a few custom rods when the urge strikes. Vegetable gardening, shooting and learning to reload will be my main things to 'worry about' perty soon.

Also may give up the Hazmat team at the hospital. It has become a non-paying full time job. The only delight anymore is training what few rookie Hazmatheads volunteer for the Team. I just finished teaching the first ever OSHA Hazmat Technician course at the hospital and the rookies did really good. Had two girls in the class that might could be stretched out to 4'10" and weight in at about 90# soaking wet. Seeing those two in SCBA and fully encapsulated suits 2 sizes to big for them that blew up like the Michellin man brought me laughing to tears.

It seems the older I get the more my patience for putting up with general bullshit is getting less and less, which in turn drops my give-a-shit factor into negative numbers. It's time to work to live, not live to work.

Grandson is getting to the age (16 months or so) where I stop everything that I'm doing when he comes over. The little fart is becoming a hoot to be around. And, it's time for me to start imparting my great wealth of knowledge into his little head of mush as Rush used to say. If I live long enough, he will be one mean ass smart little sumbitch when I'm through with him. Just hope I can send him somewhere that will teach him to shoot and read wind better than me! Only problem is that it looks like he's gonna be a southpaw and all my riffles and bows are righties. Damn what a predicament!

If you haven't read this, please do. It will put a lot of things in perspective. It's called Sundown At Coffin Rock. http://www.odorxit.com/frames/CoffinRock.html

Rambled too much, Bolt out!

Bolt
Hotter than 40 megahells, NC, - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 01:12:00 (ZULU)

Spuritt:

For mil-dot info I recomend http://www.premierreticles.com

even I could understand the explanation!

And he puts to rest some myths/misconceptions.

I think its under downloads.

You guys are making me down right civilised, I bought a gunsafe, joined Tulsa's Red Castle Gun Club (per Bobby's recomendation),

even planning on trying a High Power shoot. Plus signed up for a CMP shoot.

A long way from prowlin' the Ozarks lookin' for yotes ; )

Hey Pete Lincoln, they also feature an old bolt action service rifle competition. I may NEEeeedd and Enfeild soon ; )

Which model should I get.

Thanks Guys!!!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 03:08:50 (ZULU)

Boltster......sounds like your trying to "dis"courage some fine shooters to join you at Butner.....WTF...are you trying to win one !!!!!!!!!!!

See you in October at the Nationals.........I invite all of you to Camp Butner for the 1st FClass/FTRClass Nationals......lots of shooting and prizes........bring your best .308 or .223, your bipod, plenty of ammo and let-er-roll.........

Wait till you see my new bolt knobs made by my 'smith !!!!! They are super !!!!!

Till then, you must practice, practice, practice.......your gonna need it !!!!!!

Later,

JRMoore

JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 12:37:36 (ZULU)

Dad gum it; 4I's, next thing you'll be sippin your moonshine and goin to church in somethin sides a camo suit with no dogs in the pickup! What's this world commin too?

Bolt; 50 is kick back time. Won't be long till your crossing the 60th meridian and you can tell em all to go to hell. You'll still have to work your butt off for the Doctors but.. it's better than wondering where you next job is gonna come from. At 60 what can they do? Ruin your career>:) :). Weekends getting close. Where did I put those 1k Targets? Supposed to be cool and calm. WE'll see about that last prediction. Gonna be takin a look at a .300 WSM Savage long shooter this weekend. IF I can make myself look good I'll tell you about it.

Anyone around here tried the 78 A-max? Seems like a pretty fair bullet to me. Shot better than my 190's and 168's in the short test we did.

Brogers
Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 14:01:19 (ZULU)

Demo,

Happy to hear about your little Peanut. Damned fine news.

Good to see you on your way CONUS.

You guys all take care and Semper-Fi!

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Ca., usa - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 15:40:35 (ZULU)

Was invaded by Larry, Curly, and Moe today, only one missin was Shep(Les)!! Nah Jon, ya'll have the gold card, always a hot cuppa for you lot, you're a good bunch..Still not sure about that screw til she squeaks remark, though....

which brings me to, Sako 75 with the plastique stock dudes, what are you torqueing your screws ta....If it's 65 lb-in i want to know if that is correct...doubt it, figure more round 45, but correct me if wrong..

Bill,

I had to fix a crown today, and my new dremel wasn't in yet so had to use the Ryobi cordless drill...Robo-crrroooon...would have made you proud....I thought of ya, and Beastie Boys music was in me heed as well...

Dean,

Yer not working for Lost river now are ya? Christ, I just got my 300 rebored to 40 cal, now you tell me 33 is the caliber, guess I'm gonna have to weld it shut and start all over...Ha!!

Yo mates,

Give this Welshman Jon the heads up on 260 Rem preformance, specially youse AR10 bunch as he wants a piddly 22" 'practical' quick rifle....Mrbullet, don't be a stranger now...I know you have good data....

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 20:24:53 (ZULU)

.260;

I have one I shoot F Class with. It's a Savage short action. .260 Ackley Improved, Pac-Nor 30" medium Palma contour, 1-8.6 twist. I use 42.5gr H4350 and 142gr Sierra MatchKings with Remington .260 brass. It uses 11 MOA at 600 yards and 27 MOA at 1000. If I can ever shoot to this gun's potential, I'll have it made! Going to test some 139gr Lapua Scenars this weekend.

The .260 uses 6.5mm bullets so good quality bullets are plentiful. The only factory brass available is Remington. It's not the best quality but after using some in a few matches and practices, I found it's not as bad as one thinks. I have also resized cases to make the .260 and I haven't found the performance to be worth the effort.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 22:00:19 (ZULU)

AR-10 and .260, what a hoot. I think the caliber is nice to start with. If you have one of the faster twist barrels, you can shoot 142 smk's easily.

iI do not have the most AR-10 or .260 experience in this crowd by far, but that G.A. puts them in extremely tiny groups at 100, and around 1/2 MOA at 1000, if I do my part.

One of the nicest things I've found is getting just over 2700 fps with this load. YMMV. I load all of the 142 rounds to mag feed from the AR-10 mag. (never mind that many folks single load these to a longer OAL for bolt guns)

Best load so far was what George Gardner suggested, 37.4 of Varget with the 142. Bobby Whittington has shot this gun a bit as well, and I think he's shot some nice groups. Brass was factory Rem, Fed GMM primer, case was trimmed and chamfered to start a uniform length and to ease loading, but only "real" prep work was deburring the flash holes before the first loading.

I put some info online a while back, click on my name below for more info (I've slept since then, so tend to forget some details)

John L

John L
Mid-MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 22:27:59 (ZULU)

Chuck, on November 2004 Badlands class, I'm going to try to partner up w/ Keith (from SQ04) for that class.

It's GOT to be better in November than the 107 temps we had almost exactly a year ago in Grandfield at this time. That was a rough 10 days for a well insulated guy like me!

John L
Mid-MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 22:32:51 (ZULU)

John L.,

You have mail inbound. N/A.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 22:54:40 (ZULU)

Demo,

Godspeed on your trip home. If you get bored, visit the Team at Camp Perry (we'll be there from July 28th thru 15 August. Bring cash or plastic -- all the Commercial Row vendors are more than willing to help you spend that combat pay war zone exemption savings). You can find us at the Army van (great big thing -- you can't miss it).

Sinister
Thursday, July 22, 2004, at 23:48:30 (ZULU)

Demo,

Glad to hear that all is well and you're on your way home! Best news I heard all week. If you ever find yourself headed to Bragg for anything, shoot me an email.

I was wondering if you guys here could do me a favor? Grandson started having siezures on Sunday. Hes only 4 months old. They medevac'd him from southern Utah to a Childrens Specilty hospital in Salt Lake. CT scans show low brain activity. They're presently doing an MIR to see how much brain damage there may be. Docs in Salt Lake say the doc that delivered him screwed up. They're gonna try some anti-siezure meds and some other meds. Docs say that theres a chance with the treatment that (at his young age) his brain may adjust and develop. They said it maybe a few months to know for sure. My son said the OB GYN is a pakistani. Many of the Docs in the area of soutern Utah are foreigners. Out in the desert they cant get American Docs. Told him to look into getting a good malpractice attorney. Well.... the favor is .... can you guys put up a preyer for the little tike. His names' Monty. Sounds like he could use it. His mom and dad are fisrt time parents and its killin em. Mention them too please.

Thanks

Steve S

Steve S
Ft Bragg area, , NC, Born in the USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 00:13:17 (ZULU)

Demo - welcome home and thank you!

Steve S - Suggest to the parents that they get as involved as possible...get all the facts...keep asking questions until they know EVERYTHING...have them focus on getting the little guy through the tough time....

Jon / JR - My AR10 sporting a lightweight 16" bbl is still a bit unwieldy..the 24" heavy barreled .260 upper is simply a load. If you must have a short and lightweight 6.5mm semi-auto rifle, start loading with the Laupa 123 gr and work downward in weight from there...the 95 VMAX round is astoundingly accurate. The extra long reciever and heavy bolt to house the 51mm case is the problem...

I've been thinking on this very subject....Anyone have any thoughts on an AR modified to take AK magazines and firing a necked down 7.62 x 39 to say 6mm? Is there a 6mm wildcat other than the 6ppc that uses the russian cartridge? Could this work?

http://www.ar47.com/index.html

medicjim
Friday, July 23, 2004, at 00:32:05 (ZULU)

Steve S.,

More than happy to oblige. Will also toss some in for you and your wife as well.

Hang in there,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The stormy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 00:37:02 (ZULU)

Steve S. prayers for all enroute! Can relate, #1 grandson gave us a VERY bad scare at about that age with a large mass around his aorta! Successful surgery and all check-ups to date - he's almost 5 years old now, have been negative! No chemo, no radiation!

Keep the faith!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 01:11:45 (ZULU)

Welshman Jon,

I'm running a long neck, 260 improved so this data may not be directly applicable.

Load is 44.1gr of H4350, 140 JLK, BR2, and brass formed from Lapua 243 for chronographed MV of 2975fps with 15fps ES.

I'm at about 5000 feet above sea level, add about 4.5 - 5.0 MOA for shooting at sea level.

Rifle is zeroed at 200 yards:

300 - 1.75 MOA

500 - 5.75 MOA

600 - 8.5 MOA

800 - 13.5 MOA

900 - 16.25 MOA

1000 - 19.5 MOA

142SMK will seat below the donut to be magazine length in an AR-10. Initial testing with my chamber, set up for JLK with 0.050 lead vs. 0.120 lead for SMK, shows accuracy is not degraded if the donut is removed. I use a fluted carbide mandrel from K&M tools when neck turning my cases to remove the donut.

Personally, I have not used Lapua bullets but know several people who have had great success. 123 Lapua bullet would probably work about the best if you do not want to remove donut from cases.

I did some testing with 140 JLK and Varget:

37.0gr yielded 2738 fps

38.0gr yielded 2809 fps

39.0gr yielded 2879 fps

All of this data is from a Rem 700 SA, 32" Krieger barrel set up for F-class.

856 rounds through tube and with the JLKs throat has moved 0.012"; throat errosion would be less with the SMKs as the ogive is significantly more rounded than the ogive on the JLK. Rifle has been shot in several team matches, so it is not getting babied either.

Jody,

What is the MV for your 260AI with 42.5 of H4350 & 142SMK?

42.5gr H4350 & 140 JLK gives me 2825 fps, just curious how much difference there is between AI and my design.

What brass did you use to form into 260?

FCS

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 01:26:01 (ZULU)

Sinister: I believe I know that van or one just like it---hosted it up in wisconsin when I wore a liberty bell upon the shoulder....

Naturally, with the herd of rugrats I have the house of mouse in my future. Tucked away up in WI puts Camp Perry astride at least one route (the one that invlovles hitting other family locales first).

Again naturally, all things family are planned and decided by household six; I will lobby my case and see how it goes....heheh.

Awaiting trans...tonight most likely will put me one more step closer. Sure wish I was getting on these KY-bound birds.

Demo

Demo
Friday, July 23, 2004, at 05:06:22 (ZULU)

Apologize if this has been covered as I have been AWOL from the DR for a while but - just saw that Burris has a 7x40 Bino/LRF - anyone put hands on one yet? Looking for a thumbs up/down. Seems to be about 1/2 price of the new Leica ones. Wondering if they are worth a look.

Thx

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 07:40:55 (ZULU)

Hi Fellas,

JR, thanks for showing the boys around yesterday. The hospitality was very much appreciated. Especially your precision work on my dodgey crown ;-) I'll let you know how it shoots.

Seems Pete Lincoln does more than fly spaceships, shoot pigs and womanise. He builds a nice rifle too. Picked up a rifle he built for this year's student yesterday. Between Pete and JR's barrel the lad has himself a rifle to be proud of. And, if the test targets weren't made by poking the target with a pencil, the thing will bloody shoot too ;-) Dribbling at the prospect of my new 260 now. On that point thanks for the info guys. Keep it coming.

Off down country in a bit and spending tomorrow at the CLA gamefair. Eyes will be wide for a donor action.

Steve S hope it works out for Monty, he has my thoughts.

Demo, safe journey.

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 07:57:05 (ZULU)

Steve S.,

Agree with Medicjim, get a second and preferably a third opinion! NEVER trust the first opinion in a matter this serious especially with docs that you have no personal knowledge of. Get a lawyer immediately so that they can start the ball rolling on pressing getting the proper treatment from not only the doc, but the hospital also. Working at a hospital for 14 years has taught me a lot of things.

Bolt
NC, - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 10:04:46 (ZULU)

Steve S.

Consider it done. You may want to consider having the lawyer keep a low profile at first. I wouldn't want his prescense to inadvertenly affect treatment options, fwiw. Tell your son and daughter-in-law to think positive, it does affect the outcome, and Monty will pick up on it.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 12:17:53 (ZULU)

Steve S,

Smoke is rising. Trust the Lord and keep the family close. I've mentioned my baby girl here before. Only God's grace allows her to stay upright. As we've done regarding others, Monty and family will be before the throne constantly.

Demo,

Glad you're out. Also good to hear the family is well. Prayer does work. Did we ever doubt.

You'll be seein'flyin' pigs in a couple of days, I expect.

Able One

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 12:58:24 (ZULU)

Jr..

Yea, I am still here I usually just check in to see what you an the crew are up to. I don't get much chance to post anymore, to busy at work, crime is good I guess.

Welshman Jon,

The 260s a great round for long range shooting. I shot the throat out of a 26" an had it cut back to a 22". The gun shot better groups at 22"s an by uping the load a grain I was back within 30fps of my original load. It would shoot under MOA at 900 an MOA or just under at 1000yds.

I don't know if it was me or the shorter barrel but it seemed to open the group at 1000 more than before but at 800 on in it was tighter than before by a bunch.

I think a 24" is all thats needed for the 260s. I have one now that is a Kreiger 24" an it really shoots. All my 260s have loved Varget anywhere from 36.5 to 38.5grs depending on the bullets. Most have shot the 140 AMAX the best. Some would shoot the 142s tighter at 100 to 300yds but from there on out the AMAX would hold tighter groups for some reason. This has also been the same in my 6.5x284s.

My current 260 with the Kreiger barrel likes the 140 Sierras. It shoots the others great if you seat them out to the lands but then they won't fit the magazine. The 140s will do both.

All my other 260s liked a little jump to the throat but this one does not. If I seat them away from the lands it will start vertical stringing past 500yds. Seat them out an it tightens them right up. Good luck an if you need any oter info just let me know.

Pat
Friday, July 23, 2004, at 13:50:28 (ZULU)

Steve,

Just wanted you to know that Monty is being lifted up to the Lord this morning. Also want you to that I am believing in faith for Monty to be healed. Thanks for sharing this with us...these are a good bunch of guys.

Bobbby,

Thanks for putting on a GREAT 3 Gun Match at Badlands! I apprecaite all your hard work and your staff that put into last weekend. Learned a GREAT deal, match was run very smoothly, courses of fire were right on, not much lag time...all in all, great match! Look forward to your Fall 3 Gun Match.

Rich,

Great shooting with you last weekend! And it was a pleasure meeting your wife (not Mike, your real wife...well, I guess Mike is real...your female wife).

David Hornsby
Friday, July 23, 2004, at 14:04:02 (ZULU)

Demo:

Glad yer on the way home. I know how hard it is to serve and keep your mind on what you gotta do when the little one at home is sick. Mebbe it's just me, but it seems like there's fewer and fewer of men like you left. Carry on....

Steve S. Shot out. T.O.F. for prayer is .00000000824 nano-seconds, so God has it already, and response is OTW.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 16:15:12 (ZULU)

Thanks David. It was, as usual a blessing and honor to get to shoot at Badlands and be around you guys again. I learn so much from you guys it's amazing. How's that video of the Commando?????

Bobby and the crew did another great job. Lots of hard work and effort went into the match and it shows. Great job Badlands!! A first rate operation there guys!!!

Chuck, I think Hornsby is coming and I'll be there. Mongo (Mike) will show up if his collarbone, scapula, and ribs are back togther, and like John said, Keith is kinda' planning on it.

What a crew eh'???

Richard Johnson
Friday, July 23, 2004, at 17:22:57 (ZULU)

Steve S.

Prayers are on the way for Monty and the family. All that the others have said is right on the money, to include the lawyer stuff.

I and my wife have a lot of practical experience with these kinds of cases d/t the fact we have been taking in Hi-Risk Medically Fragile infants for this Co. for 10+ years.

Talk to and hold the baby as much as possible. Read to him. Make sure that EVERYONE that comes in contact with the little tyke understand that he is "Monty" and not just another "case". As much positive stimulation as possible.

Find some good therapists that deal with Pediatric pts. exclusively. Learn from 'em.

Make sure the Social Workers make appropriate referrals to programs for little tykes like this. Get involved in a support group.

Stay positive around the parents. Even when they're tired.

But above all, give Li'l Monty LOTS of attention.

Kids (and babies) are tougher than we think they are.

Hang in there and feel free to vent anytime. We're here for ya.

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Ca., usa - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 17:27:13 (ZULU)

HDR, You have mail. Suject:Waco. No attachments. Was wondering if you and Frank are going to shoot Sunday the 1st of August. I will be there and gunna try to bring Charles Hunt.

Chuck, You interested. See You at work.

Steve S. I will put the little one in my prayers. Have Faith.

Lito, You have email too. Subject Kittens.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
A Swift and Horrible Death to Our Enemies!, Texas, U. S. of A! - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 17:42:07 (ZULU)

Afternoon Gents,

Read the post about Steve's grandson, Prayers are going up from this end. I know how his son feels. Six months after my son got back from the first round in the sandbox he was diagnosed with Milo genus Leukemia. Thanks be to God that his older sister was a match for a bone marrow transplant. That was '92 today he's got a kid of his own. It doesn’t make any difference if the kid is 4 mo old or 40 . . . It's still your kid!! This brings to mind the topic of conversation a few weeks ago . . . God or no God??

I can tell you from personal experience there are NO atheists in a pediatric or oncology waiting room!!

Jim McNabb
Arlington, Texas, U.S.A - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 17:49:34 (ZULU)

http://www.ghilliesuits.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22

FYI

Wookie Suit Supplies

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 18:56:27 (ZULU)

Steve S, my thoughts are with you and your family.

Project Hacksaw – all change!

If anyone remembers, this was letting a gun mag cut the barrel of my Ruger VT to 20” and fit a muzzle brake. Thanks to comment from you guys (mostly JR), I’m selling the VT instead of cutting it down.

Put this down to me actually listening to other people for a change – I normally just carry on regardless and screw it up. Must be getting old.

SteveA
shooters paradise, England - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 19:09:54 (ZULU)

I forgot how bad english saddle wrecks your assbone when you're not used to it, figgered I'd be all right with the mileage on the MTX, nope.....Jazus, after 2 days, me bollocks are in tatters, I'll have to soak it in cider tonite...

Steve A,

Ha!! Hell, you probably shouldnae listen to my dumbass advice, just do what you gotta do...and don't f'up...

SteveS,

Hey, just make it a mission to keep the spirits up, get the info you need, but keep the morale on the highest level, hard as it may be...

Jon,

You asked for 260 advice, as we say back home 'build it and they will come'(we definitely don't say screw it til she squeaks, jeez)...ha..never doubt the power of the rostah!!! Double ha(for Pat, good to see you live and kickin)...Tell Iain he gets the first round, I'm seconds and we'll figure it out from there..Ya'll are good folk, as good as it gets..John should be a happy camper, do a quick double check with the Seekonk on torque perhaps, I guessed, cannae remember if it's 65lb-in when my wrist cracks or not...

Ran the DSR top man thru the works today, museum curator/barrelmeister, that would be me, the tours this week, I'm booking double decker buses, ha, they wait til the boss is gone I guess..Went fantastic, at times I think he was trying to call my bluff but I laid down a monster, ended up securing a good standing order...DSR no 1, keep an eye on em, they catch my eye as reputable accuracy freaks, their works make good sense, on par with what I'm used to, attention to detail.....good rival for AI in the Euro LE market..Got another place to stay if I'm in Germany anyhow, good stuff....Any decent knockin shops in Obendorf Pete?

Later

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 21:46:23 (ZULU)

Steve S.

My prayers go out to you and your family. My grandson is 9 months old now. I can only imagine the pain you are all feeling. Take care!

Rob Opp

Robert Opp
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, July 23, 2004, at 21:54:49 (ZULU)

Jim McNabb,

I have done a good bit of volunteer time in a Pediatric ICU. You know what I'm getting at.

medicjim
Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 00:19:27 (ZULU)

Steve,

When my daughter was diagnosed, I wanted to lash out at "it" but rediscovered faith instead---partly by lashing out at "him" and then realizing the uselesness of fighting what is and what must be dealt with. Then, I simply prayed. I asked folks here for a few prayers if they could or would. One of the best Docs in the field fell in my lap. The worst case aspect of the disease failed to show up, her gender and her varient were a plus on chances. The girl was really young, and really resillient to the worst of the poisons that might cure her. All the right things started happening.

Anyone could argue why she is cured. I know it all started right here with the prayers.

I have added Monty to my prayers.

Joe M

PS: Demo is in Kuwait...

Joe Mahon
Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 02:55:30 (ZULU)

>>>Anyone could argue why she is cured. I know it all started right here with the prayers.<<<<

James 5:16 "...pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 05:05:31 (ZULU)

Greetings all.

I happened across your site when I was looking for information on rifles and equipment. I'd like to thank you for your reviews section and the hot tips and cold shots area. I decided on a Winchester Model 70, Stealth II in .308 with a Nightforce NXS. If anyone knows anything faulty about this combination I would definitely appreciate it if they would pass it on.

About me; I am an AH-64 mechanic for the U.S. Army. I've actually seen a video of that 2000m headshot ya'll (yes, my home of record is in Texas) were discussing a few days ago. It doesn't really qualify though, it was part of a rather long burst sent to three would-be mortarmen courtesy of one of our birds. I'm currently in the sandbox, but not having to live in the conditions that many here do. I've an air-conditioned trailer to sleep in and have yet to don my MOPP gear. I believe it was Demo talking about the uniform nazis. We do have those here in force. You have to wonder about someone who goes to war then gripes because you don't zip your flight suit all the way to the top. Anyhow, that's all I got.

Steve S. Monty is in my prayers as well.

Thanks again for the awesome site,

Robert

SPC Hallowell
LSA Anaconda, Iraq - Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 15:28:47 (ZULU)

Gents,

Steve S. Our prayers for Monty.

For those not believing in a higher power that is your perogative. Personally, I've seen to much, and had my own life "touched", to doubt the exhistence of God. Our family, as well. Wife had cancer about 5 years ago. After the operation she didn't need chemo or radiation.

Robert, Enjoy the Stealth .308. I got one in .223 this last year and it's a 1/2 MOA gun with Sierra 69 gr. MK's.

All for now, getting ready for work. Yesterday it was 104 degrees in Salem(this is Oregon?). Today it's going to be 99...thank god for the "cool spell"...;-)

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 16:10:23 (ZULU)

Will pray for Monty here as well.

Here is an interesting document, a review of small arms performance in Iraq, including the M24SWS.

Here is the link.

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

PROJECT MANAGER SOLDIER WEAPONS

SOLDIER WEAPONS ASSESSMENT TEAM REPORT 6-03

OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM

31 July 2003

PM Soldier Weapons

PM Maneuver Ammunition Systems

United States Army Infantry Center, Directorate for Combat Developments, Small Arms Division

TACOM - Armament Research Development & Engineering Cen

Some of the more interesting comments about the M24/M3:

"Discussion: Snipers would like the M24 to have a shorter bolt action. The current bolt action makes it difficult for the shooter to engage targets quickly (MOUT). Snipers would also like to see the position of the safety moved from the side position to the center. Snipers feel that this provides them better access to the safety. As for the trigger mechanism, snipers would like to have a rounded, straight pull back, more adjustable trigger (competition trigger). This would allow the shooter to adjust the trigger squeeze to his personal liking.

Recommendation: Develop a system that will enable the sniper to quickly and accurately engage multiple targets. Provide the sniper with a competition trigger for his weapon. Continue the Semi-Auto Sniper System (SASS) effort and incorporate the capabilities discussed in this report."

"Discussion: Snipers are extremely pleased with the performance of the M3A Scope, however, they would like the reticle to have ¼ MOA adjustments instead of the current ½ MOA adjustments"

I found that last part very interesting.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 20:06:12 (ZULU)

Testing...

Marius
Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 21:43:24 (ZULU)

Jim; Listen to Medic Jim;

Ah Laddie; Sorry you had to resort to such a primitive tool there but you can always dremmel it out if she doesn't shoot you say!

And as we promised we did a little shooting with the .300 WSM (Savage )yesterday.

In general it held 1MOA or slightly better when we arrived at the best load... all of the time. Best groups were at the longer ranges 600 to 800. 1000yd range was flooded. It didn't quite keep up with the SAUM but was more than exceptable accuracy.

We were shooting 55 VARGET for the best groups. I expect things to improve after a few rounds as this was a Out of box new gun.

Velocity was computed to around 2900 but couldn't be verified due to rain conditions today . I think the SAUM and WSM are about equal with some slight power advantage to the WSM. Either one will shoot.

Brogers
Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 02:34:21 (ZULU)

Monty and all his family are in our prayers.

Bolt:

My lady friend who went down on Flt. 93 was the Environmental Trainer for all of us in Engineering. We always got a kick out of her demos in the Michelin Man suit.

Damn, I still miss her.

Damn, I hope we destroy every SOB that had a hand in that day.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 03:18:43 (ZULU)

Thanks the 260 info fellas. Not being one who has had any experience necking up/down cases, is the procedure for making 260 brass simply either running 7mm-08/308 cases through a neck-sizing die or running a 6.5mm expander through 243 cases? I'm assuming neck turning of some sort is required if necking down?

Thanks again.

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 12:23:07 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the preyers!

update on Monty Got word early this morning from my son that the MRI showed noe brain damage. They are gonna give Monty B-12 and something called ACTH(?). This is to try to kick start the production of a chemical that glads are not producing. Son said docs say cause hes still so young he stands a better chance to "reboot" te brain. They believe the lack of the production is responisble for the seizures. At the moment hes having as many as 30 seizures a day. [Cause: not known yet. A week before he was born he was in distress, the OBGYN didnt want to deliver and waited another week. Was born with the embilical cord tight around neck. APGARS were low but increased before leaving the hospital(was 3 day stay).] If this works, he may go home soon. Son said the docs dont have any idea if Monty may have learnig disabilities/developmental delays or not....that time will be the indicator. Thanks again for the preyers, and my wife was in tears (happy) after reading the posts and she says Thanks from the bottom of her heart!

Steve S

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC., USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 12:34:47 (ZULU)

Robert,

Welcome and thanks for serving,

That's a damn fine combination of rifle and scope and will keep you shootin for quite some time before you need to rebarrel or buy one more accurate. The scope will last a lifetime, or 2. Keep yur head down an wy6.

John

edit to add,

Steve,

Good news! Glad to hear he may be goin home. Keep us informed.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 12:41:05 (ZULU)

Demo....WELCOME HOME.....

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 14:24:24 (ZULU)

Steve S: That is hope, my friend. Hold it, and let it build. These things are a series of small victories. I continue to pray that more victories, however small, keep Monty moving forward. Keep us posted here.

Robert, welcome to the pub. The NSX is a good scope, but it rides high in the mounts. The 56mm OBJ is bigger than I care for, but I bet it extends your shooting hours by a margin. The rifle choice is excellent for a entry into precision shooting. In a year you'll be calling George for a custom...it is a insidious hobby that takes money right out of your pocket. You don't notice it happening until the wife is screamin' at ya. Heheh.

Has anyone done a technical comparisson of Sproingfields and Nightforce scopes? I wonder how much they have in common? Made on the same tools in Japan, aren't they?

I fly out the 4th of August at o'dark, with a 3 hour lay-over in BWI. Anyone in that neck of the woods? Email me off the roster contact-thing; I will be looking to drink a cold beer with a pocketful of hazduty pay. First few are on me....after that, I'll be out cold. Light-weight no tolerance left. It looks to be a lunch lay-over on the sheet---details to any in the area. Be in Minnie at 1600 for a little reunion.

Geoff, no surprise on the 1/4 minute clicks---the law enforcement engagement ranges are the norm. As dumb as some of the bad guys are--none are dumb enough to stroll in the open desert. Or maybe all those are already dead...so, we are left with villages and towns. The army, for it's part, likes to cover a lot of bases with one gadget. Get something that works across a lot of use, it does no single one great--and troops will bitch. I think that using finer adjustments is a good idea---the stand-off ranges aren't as likely since the fall of the wall. We still build shit for that type of war though. Time to re-assess our needs and buy the right stuff for LIC and MOUT. That is our future, like it or not.

Demo

Demo
Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 14:38:59 (ZULU)

Robert,

Great choice for starting in this game. Not sure which NXS you are looking at but I'd suggest going with the 5.5-22X50 as it will sit a little lower. Adjustable cheek is almost a neccessity for the 56mm NXS, IMHO, to be able to get a solid cheek weld.

I'd also suggest the 20 MOA Badger Ord. base and rings to mount the NXS. Not that you need the 20 MOA with the 5.5-22 but closer to center of travel at distance is a good thing!

DEMO,

THANK YOU!!

Jon,

You can form 260s either way but neck turning is probably more dependant on dimensions of chamber. If necking up I'd run case into full length die after the expander and maybe a fluted mandrel to remove donut.

Have you specified chamber dimensions yet? Winchester brass, at least the last several lots of 243 & 308 for me, has been pretty small at the base (0.463 and should be no smaller than 0.468 IMHO); I'd avoid Win brass. Remington brass has been correct at base and should work fine with chamber dimensions at base 0.470 and just before shoulder 0.454. I've been forming my brass from Lapua 243 but I also make the neck longer and have tight neck chamber so neck turning / donut removal is needed.

Brogers,

Thanks for the range report! 55 Varget and 168s?

FCS

FCS
Central, NM, USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 15:35:18 (ZULU)

Well, just getting caught up with the Roster after being in Washington, D.C. this past week. What a city!

David & Rich, thanks for the compliment on the 3 Gun Match. This was our first one here, and it won't be the last. BadLands is expanding in the amount of courses and matches that will be held here! Much more is on the horizon! Also, the results of the 3 gun match are now up on the BadLands website for those interested.

On the Advanced Phase II school coming up in November, no..there hopefully won't be any 107 degree temperatures, but...always expect the unexpected around here!

As John L. stated, I have shot the .260 some, and find the round to be a good performer. That lil AR-10 will shoot. Although nowadays I don't shoot it much because my wife and oldest daughter has laid claim to it..oh well, anything to keep em shooting. The load John mentioned performs very well in that rifle here at BadLands.

Steve S. ...Our prayers are with you and yours!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 17:11:52 (ZULU)

Gents,

Just got an email back from Hogue about overmolded stocks for a Savage. They say they don't have anything in the works yet, but would put it in the suggestion box if they got more people interested. Is anyone else interested? If not it looks like a Bell & Carlson is in my future for the 1 Savage that I do own.

Marc

Marc Ingram
High Point, NC, USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 17:52:20 (ZULU)

Marc,

Check out www.savageshooters.com sight. Theres a link to Savage shooters supply, they will be making a tactical stock that will compare to the McMillan A5. Its in the very early startup and they're takeing orders through savageshooters.com. Just search around the sight and you'll find it. Or send an email to jcalhoun here or on savageshooters.

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC., USA - Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 20:06:59 (ZULU)

Just realised I'll be on block leave for part of Camp Perry. Don't think I'll shoot, but I'll go for a day and BS a little, talk some shop, see some of the old faces. First year I missed it since the last time I was overseas.

Anybody else going besides Sinister?

There are some cool news toys out there that the regular infantry Bn's are getting. Been working on more general R&S stuff than true sniper stuff, but cool toys nonetheless. Dragon Eye is freaking cool. A backpack UAV that you can use to get over the hill, around the corner images to a squad leader. Going to surprise some hadjis, that's for sure.

Going over with both M40A1's and A3's. 16 bolt guns to support the Bn with. A sniper golf bag in the making. Add the M16A4's with the ACOG's and you've got a bunch of choices. Got the Premier mildot spotting scopes on order, working at getting some 3.5-10x Loopies for the close range work on the A3's and getting cans for the M16's. Took better part of 4hrs on the phone doing S4's job, but that's what's needed. Should have USMC safety certification for suppressed M16's on Mon-Tuesday and then it's easy sailing as the money has already been budgeted. Welcome to "Supply and Logistics Country" :-)

S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Monday, July 26, 2004, at 02:17:27 (ZULU)

Thanks for the welcome. The NXS I am looking at is the 3.5-15x56. I thought about the higher power, but as I'm going to "misuse" this rifle by deer-hunting with it (and I have the bad habit of not seeing deer until they're within stone throw distance) I wanted a scope that would dial way down. I did that "raised the rifle and only saw hair through the scope" thing once and didn't much care for it. I am planning on the Badger 20 moa mounts and rings. A few questions though, concerning the 50mm vs. the 56mm. The exit pupil is the diameter of the light hitting the eye when it's at the proper eye relief, right? Does anyone know the diameter the pupil in the human eye will open to when it's properly adjusted for night vision? If not exactly, is it over 3.6mm? The exit pupil at 15x on the 50mm is 3.6mm while the 56mm is at 4mm. Last question, who makes a good adjustable cheek piece? I don't remember seeing one anywhere, but I really wasn't looking. Thanks in advance. :-)

Robert

SPC Hallowell
LSA Anaconda, Iraq - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 04:17:09 (ZULU)

Gents,

Anyone out there have opinions or facts about Jet suppressors? I haven't seen them in any articles and their web site doesn't have info, just pictures and an email link. I've got a AWC thundertrap and love the performance but hate the weight. I'm looking for performance, accuracy effects and type of threads (stainless, titanium, etc...).

Thanks,

A sandy, hot Chris

Chris
BFE, other - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 08:09:16 (ZULU)

I have a Jet Suppressor in .308, which is normally mounted on my AI AE. The Jets are all titanium, and welded up. They are pretty quiet, though I have no quantitative data on sound reduction comparative to other suppressors. They have no apparent effect on accuracy that I can measure - the rifle shoots about the same with or without it. It's possible that it may actually enhance accuracy, especially at long range, by cleaning up the gas turbulence as the bullet exits the end of the can, but I don't shoot groups at long range, so I don't really know.

It does effect the point of impact - my rifle shoots about an inch high with the can on it at 100 yards - but once the 100 yard zero is put on the scope, it doesn't affect my elevation data, because it doesn't effect the muzzle velocity.

The recoil reduction is impressive. I can see bullet impacts at 300 yards through my scope, and watch my own trace at ranges beyond about 500 yards. That makes 2nd shot corrections much easier, a distinct advantage when shooting tactical rifle matches.

My can is threaded, and Mike Brown, the owner, also did the barrel threading on my rifle. They come in standard thread sizes, though, both English and metric, so any competent gunsmith or machinist should be able to cut the threads.

In sum, I like the suppressor, and find Mike and company splendid folks to do business with.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 12:23:54 (ZULU)

Robert - a person knowledgeable about optics and scopes posted on here that the pupil size in early evening was about 7 mm, and it seems logical to suppose that in full darkness it will be bigger.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 12:42:35 (ZULU)

FCS yes, (55 and 168)and we also ran some 178's though it. They shot under 1 moa but are shooting less than .5 in the SAUM. We have been having some strays in elevation..here and there and the Chrono revealed the problem yesterday in the form of large deviations. The lower powder charges have variations of 76fps (53.5 Varget) in the Saum. with larger charges cutting that in half. Beginning to look like the Varget may not make the best choice in the fat boys as you predicted.

The 178Amax's however with the same load had variations of less than 10fps. Same load out of same can, same primer, Had to be capacity or back pressure caused by larger bullet correcting the problem or bullet diameter variations and with MK's that's hard to believe. 190's in the Saum also shoot quite well with the same load of 53.5 Varget. Am raising the SAUM up to 55 gr. with the 168's to see what the effect is but it's not a weight we like anyway just cheap source of bullets is main attraction as opposed to 178's at $20 a box which isn't bad either. 56.5 Varget shot 5" groups at 1000 and 2" at 500. Flooded us out on the long range so 800 was max. this weekend on the WSM. It will continue to be tested some more at the long one.

Springfield VS. Night Force, I have to be honest guys I've never had a springfield that didn't have a little something or a lot of something wrong with it. Haven't tested Night Force much but I hope its better than the Springfields or you don't have much. IF you have a Springfield check the outer edges for distortion and the parallax is sometimes impossible to remove at any range. I'm sure there are good ones but none have crossed my path. Zero holds ok on the Springers unless the set screw inside comes out like the 6X we had the other day and then you get a new scope.

Monty; The siezures are worrysome but not much of an indicator as to how severe the problem is. He may still be alright with a little time and the siezures don't have to affect him too much in the long run even if they don't go away. We been all the way to Houston and all the big places have worked on this one of ours. Tested for everything common and extremely rare and diagnosed wrong about 15 times but time does more than all the medicine. She was slow with everything but 2 days ago she was walking with only a small hold from her fathers hand. Love and Time is doing more than all the Doctors efforts so far as they are powerless in this situation. Hope the drug works.

Brogers
Monday, July 26, 2004, at 14:04:00 (ZULU)

I sold a Springfield Armory Scope and mount to a customer that bought a M1 - he returned it within the week - the reticule came loose inside the cope and fell. I contacted SA service, and they said no problem, send the scope back and they would glue it back in place. Great service - but I really don't want a scope where the reticule is glued in place (or is that the standard way of holding the insides of a scope together?).

Clay

Clay Goret
BFE, NM, USA - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 17:21:09 (ZULU)

Shheeeees! They told me the set screw came out of this one.

Set screws glue, either way they don't hold together.

It's too bad because they have several reticles schemes that are appealing. Sheperd reticles eat their lunch for ranging and stability and speed and don't have to be on a certain power to work...but that's another story that Millers don't want to hear.

You wanna good cheap Mil Dot system that works like a dream try the Weaver Tactical 4.5X14. If I had to stoop to using a Mil Dot scope again I would use that one. Clicks are positive and glass is super as are the other things I mentioned.

IF anyone has a bad Weaver Tactical I'd sure be all ears to hear about it.

Some big shoulders cowboy/rancher from Montana swaggers up to my table at the gun show a couple weeks ago and picks up a $600 scope off my table and says,"I don't use cheap scopes on my rifles!" I use the Leupold Long Range Mil Dots on mine!" "That's a nice scope!" says me. He swears "By Gawd, he can hit a Elk just about every shot at 500 yards! "By GAwd!" "Wow!" says I. "Which scope you usin!" I says while stuffin the $600 scope back in it's box. He shows me one that's not Mil Dot reticle but some other variant but what the heck, he can Hit a Elk at 500 yards with his Super Accurate Weatherby .300 magnum he laments ...and who am I to snicker? Till he walks off anyway. Some day I'm gonna take a camera to record these Kodak moments. I would have loved to have videoed the story about the old vietnam Sniper that went to the West Texas Militia clash and set on the hill and covered everything for 2 miles in all directions.

Well I guess we'll just loose that one to history. :)

Brogers
Monday, July 26, 2004, at 18:08:53 (ZULU)

Long.....Copied from another board. After reading this I realized we seldom say "thank you" to those in the military and our police officers.

From the Blackwater Weekly

ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS

By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D.,author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy

things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the

United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans

are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent

crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one

in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the

pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,

wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids'schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police

officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the

wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to

hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough

high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded

hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt

differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a

sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep

pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped

walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be

genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was

honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to

the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible

evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of

police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,

but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive

in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are

well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the

break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer

was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and

would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can

happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often

their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically

destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is

counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth

when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11

book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to

terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in

small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of

his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no

dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps

toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

HDR
OK, - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 19:25:02 (ZULU)

Geoff,

Just read your comments on the snipers comments about changes they would like to see. Some of them surprise me!! It really sounds more of lack of equiptment familiarization than anything else.

The Remington safetys are very easy to manipulate an as for the 1/4 minute adjustments instead of 1/2 minute, I think their trying to split hairs there. The minute adjustments only put you off a max of .5 MOA at any range an as for windage no one I know can call wind that close to need 1/4 minute adjustments.

If what Joe is saying is the norm, then most of the shooting is under 400 to 500yds an not much need for 1/4 minute adjustment on a body shot. I shoot at 9" paper plates out to 1000yds an use the 1" MOA adjustments for elevation an 1/2 for windage an if I make the right calls I will get hits. When I miss its because "I" dialed it wrong through no fault of the scope.

As far as bolt manipulation goes, you can run the bolts DAMN fast for follow up ACCUATE shots with a little practice on the M-24s. I know, I have shot them an found no difference between them an my 308 when doing speed drills.

If what I hear is true these boys don't get to do alot of shooting an thats to bad because I am sure thats where a lot of the problems are coming from.

Pat
Monday, July 26, 2004, at 19:40:20 (ZULU)

Well back in Krautland after the family holiday, and personaly glad to be back among the liquid sunshine as apposed to 45 deg Celsius of Gran canaria,, we had a nice break, Marvin and me took part in the Canaries Marlin Fishing Annual Tournament,, but the weather was crap for trolling for fish, winds coming across from the Sahara brought a heapof sand wit em and murkied up the top couple of meters of water,, which was abitch, you could see the teltale signature of big fish on the sonar at depths of 20m plus but we only had one bite,, bugger.. saw wales and dolfins and a couple of turtles which made it worth while.. the missus,cleaned up in the air rifle competitions coming first in every even she took part in.. good on er..

Back to a week of gardening..

Hogue Stock for Savage,, over on Marlin dot com we treid to get hogue to do a stock for the 1895, but according to the boss man, the cost of building a mould for the stocks weighes in at over $70 thou..spo they want to be sure of sales before they invest, i guess that will be the same for the savage stock, i like the hogue over moulded stcks, they have a great shape, and are one of the best hunting stocks i have ever used, not slipery when wet, warm when the weather is cold and they are quiet,

JR, Oberndorf?? you vantcheese or ham? you been thinkin about bullup sniper rifles? nockin shops?? if there aint one in Oberndorf,, we can open one,, i am sure there are many poor women around, so poor they have very little to wear! that would appreciate the fine qualities of a boss like me or you..

Jon,, 260 brass is comercialy available. you seen any rutting yet,, i mean apart from JR who is permanently in Rut mode.. i'm back on the atkins cos 2 weeks all inclusiv has added 3 kg to the fighting weight..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 19:53:27 (ZULU)

HDR - I am not a cop, I am not a sheep and I am not a wolf. The unarmed people on flight 93 apparently weren't either. Your post leaves out one character of profound relevance... the responsible citizen.

medicjim
Monday, July 26, 2004, at 19:59:50 (ZULU)

Ken M,

This should be my first time to Perry. Driving up the 12th for the long range week. If you'll there around that time I'll buy ya a beer. Hit my email and I'll get you a phone number.

Robert,

I'd go for the 50mm obj. You'll not loose much light and it'll be easier to mount. If you need more light, turn down the magnification. As for check pieces, if you're stock doesn't have one now you could be SOL. I find an Eagle stock pack works well for my check weld.

FatBoy...

Chris
Monday, July 26, 2004, at 20:10:58 (ZULU)

medicjim...."Your post leaves out one character of profound relevance... the responsible citizen."

I felt the paragraph on flight 93 showed that responsible citizens can and do rise to the occasion. They just have to recognize they are in danger. The article was about those that refuse to recognize there are those that want to kill and destroy.

HDR
OK, - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 20:44:43 (ZULU)

re: pupil diameter

7mm full dilation for young folks, 5mm for older folks. YMMV.

To a first order approximation, objective lense size in mm divided by

magnification is the exit pupil of an optic.

So, a 7x35 bino has a 5mm nominal exit pupil.

The other advantage of a large exit pupil in an optic is it makes eye positioning less critical.

There are other factors that determine an optic's relative brightness

in subdued lighting conditions. Binocular sellers use a scale called twilight factor.

From a little-known optics mfgr :-)

http://www.zeiss.com/C1256E2700349659/Index/?ReadForm&84

The twilight factor makes it possible to compare the performance of binoculars in low -light conditions. It is calculated by first multiplying the magnification by the objective lens diameter and then finding the square root of the result. In a 7x42 binocular, the twilight factor is therefore 17.2 - the minimum for sufficient detail recognition in twilight - and an 8x56 binocular has a twilight factor of 21.2. A comparison: An 8x30 binocular, on the other hand, has a twilight factor of 15.5 and is therefore less suitable for viewing in very low light conditions.

Note: The twilight factor is only one parameter among many, it does not say anything about the image quality which is a determining factor in detail recognition in twilight (twilight performance)! Twilight performance is mainly determined by as high a transmission as possible in the right spectral range, as low a straylight portion as possible, as high contrast as possible and as high a resolution as possible. Only if all these requirements are met at the same time - and only then - can the twilight factor be used a measure of the twilight performance in binocular viewing.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 22:29:16 (ZULU)

HDR - thanks for posting that message from Dave Grossman. I saved it to a file for use in appropriate situations.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, July 26, 2004, at 23:28:31 (ZULU)

.260 con't;

I'm using Remington brass to make my .260 AI. I have also necked down LC 82 Match M118 brass and had good results but the pressure was higher than Remington, the LC case has less volume.

I also tried reforming Lapua brass but got frustrated with always getting donuts on the inside or outside. The Lake City brass has no donuts and I don't know why.

I'm running a MV of about 2825 with 139gr Lapuas and 142gr SMK. I can run it a little faster with 43gr of H4350 but the best performance is at the speed mentioned.

With the above bullet and speed, I'm using 11MOA at 600 and 27MOA at 1000 from a 100 yard zero. The range I shoot on is 20 feet ASL.

Remington makes the only commercially available brass for the .260. It's not great but is better than I originally gave it credit.

Savage stocks;

I had a Bell & Carlson Duramax a little while back. They're pretty good stocks for the money. Far superior to the factory plastic. Like all stocks, you'll need to do a little fitting.

Sharpshooter Supply will have a stock similar to the McM A5. The final specs and details haven't been released yet. It should be available in a few weeks.

You can see it at savageshooters.com or click my name. Like Steve said, there are plans for a group purchase.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 00:55:38 (ZULU)

Trigger, aka Dean

RE: Your July 21 post regarding .338 vs .408, and better group sizes at long ranges than at 100yds.

FMTCW, the near-range bullet instability (bigger groups) is caused by a muzzle-blast induced bullet yaw that takes more than 100yds to dampen out. A number of postings on the DR, SC Articles, and postings on other sites have reported smaller 100yd groups with muzzle brakes or moderators installed than without them. It seems that what is happening, is the gas pressure is being "bled off" while the bullet is still being guided, rather than having a not-necessarily concentric release of high-pressure gas as the bullet clears the muzzle. (Also explains why a good muzzle crown can improve group size.)

Just food for thought.

Jay Dee
Pasco, Washington, USA - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 06:04:15 (ZULU)

Demo, my man, glad you’re back. I’ve been hoping to run across you for a while now ;-) Keep safe, and enjoy the time with the family, you’ve earned it in spades. On the Sproingfeld versus Nightforce scopes, remember this…. Hakko will build just about anything you ask. You name the tolerances, they name the price. You get where I’m going here, right? There have been a spate of rotating reticle returns for the Sproingfelds reported lately. Me? I’m just goofy enough to try a straight 6X with the range finding reticle. Why? Because the range finder is so fast. It’s either that or a Sheperd, and if I did that, and liked it, I might get poked at as much as Bill does.

And Dean comes back. I didn’t think it could happen, being banned and all (or was it that you were just ALMOST banned?), but here we are. I couldn’t help but notice the “I stand behind each and every claim that I make.” comment….does that mean that I’m now re-invited to Idaho with another “former” rosterhog to witness some things that were “discussed” the last time you showed up? Remember, the “anytime, anywhere” comment? I do.

I’m not stirring the pot here, but I do hate to see people put faith in what isn’t proven. Doubly so when the person professing proof comes up with lame excuse after lame excuse after “the subcontracting dog didn’t package my ammo correctly and ate my homework” excuse. Is this thing real? I don’t know. I know the hot air sure is.

Charles, on your 2520 versus Varget argument, let me tune you in to something that may help... The reason that you’re getting so much flash with the AA powder is because it’s a ball type. I’ve figured out (the hard way, of course) that ball powders flash more than the extruded types in general. As a matter of fact, I ran across this little bit of trivia while doing some pistol load work-ups. I think I’ve purchased my last bit of spherical powder for anything. Is Varget really that good? Well, ask PeteR! By spherical, this also includes the Winchester flattened sphere types. If it’s not flake or extruded, I’ve got little use for it. This having been said, the flash dampening capabilities of some of these muzzle attachments is really profound, and essentially negates the need for good powder in this regard.

Boltster! Thanks for the link amigo! I read that long ago, and couldn’t find it when I went looking for it. VERY good. And best of best to your grandson! I know you’ll do him right. I’ve got my own munchkin I’m dealing with, and he just learned what a M14E2 is, and what it does, first hand. It’s great to watch them in open-mouthed wonder, eh?

JR, you’re way too funny. Bill, dremels, and beasty boys. Now there’s a fine lot!

Steve, my prayers for the kiddo, and for his folks too.

Jaeger
Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 14:47:12 (ZULU)

Jeager: You're right son several accounts. I am probably going to go back to Varget. I was looking at the comparative burning rate tables, and both Varget and AA2230 are faster. I went to the 2230, using enough to push the 175 SMK's out of the 20" Savage fast enough to get them to 1k yds. Ooooo.....bad juju. Primers were FLAT and even extruding into the firing pin holes. Ouch. Funny thing, the bolt was easy as you please to run. Went back to the 44 Varget/175 SMK combo, getting avg of 2650 out of both the 24" Howa and the 20" Savage. Weird, but I'm ok with that, only having to load one load for both. The 20" Howa still getting 2560 with same load, and that shows to stay supersonic (barely) at 1K according to my ballistics program. Now for the sweet part. The Savage prints, on average, .4 inch groups with amazing regularity at 100 yds, and best I've been able to do is .75 inch at 300, 3-inches at 500. Better than the Howa, and that's fine with me. The only reason I went to the AA powders in the first place was that the Varget seemed to be metering poorly out of the Dillon progressive press. Funny thing happened on the way to the forum.....took the whole thing apart, cleaned it thoroughly, and now it meters Varget like a dream. I'll stay with the Varget for now.

Medicjim.....when everyone else is standing around wondering what the hell is going on, and you're doing a trach, or looking for a femoral to keep some kid from bleeding to death, it'll come to you....yer a sheepdog, dude! It ain't all about carrying guns, it's how you take care of the flock. Carry on, sir.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 17:00:25 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt....."Medicjim.....when everyone else is standing around wondering what the hell is going on, and you're doing a trach, or looking for a femoral to keep some kid from bleeding to death, it'll come to you....yer a sheepdog, dude! It ain't all about carrying guns, it's how you take care of the flock. Carry on, sir."

Well said!!

HDR
OK, - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 17:45:04 (ZULU)

Gents,

Steve, our prayers continue for your wee one and family. Please keep us posted...

Still haven't heard back from my Oregon Sniper's "over there". Will try patience, as getting to e-mail is sketchy, at best. Looks like snail mail as plan B.

Demo, welcome back. Enjoy the benefits of the greatest nation on earth.

Anyone using Lost River Ballistics projectiles or ammo? Hideously expensive, but thinking of buying a box or two to try in my .300 Win Mag and my .338 Lapua. Inquiring minds...

Ball/Spherical powders: Personally, other than metering nicely, I've never been able to achieve the velocity claims for these powders. Muzzle blast is much brighter. I'm sticking with extruded powders once my 30+ pounds of spherical is gone! Guess I need to shoot out a barrel or two!

Darn good luck with 42.2 gr.IMR 4064 in my .308 and a 190 gr SMK.

Varget is still the best choice, IMHO.

Retumbo seems to work best in the .338 Lappie

Wind Meters: Just picked up a meter from Dwyer. Simple to use, NO batteries, and works well. All this for $15.00. Seems a bit of a waste for a Kestral, etc., as they only show wind velocity where you are standing. I've gotten pretty fair at guessing the velocity from looking at the conditions, foliage movement, etc. At least to 600.

Another item for my "grab-it and go" pack.

The lads at OSP are acting up again. Damn white supremicists. Specifically, the European Kindred. Been on alert status for three days...expecting trouble. Seems the lads are a bit "bent" over a new phone system. In all, though, they don't seem to want to come out and "play".

Nice to have the old hands indicate they wanted me in position watching their back. Comment was "we know you CAN shoot and WILL if anything serious goes down".

All for now...it's my "Friday".

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 17:45:55 (ZULU)

Well Jaeger,

The song in my head whilst dremeling/robocrowning is the Beastie classic 'Sabotage'......I got my new dremel/gunsmithing tool in today, now I just need to find the rifling attachment.....

And eh, you never know, pigs flew and Dean appeared, maybe you'll get a show yet!!

Pete,

you lazy bum...I'm trying to buy a horizontal this week, want I should price some lathes? what we need to find is a rifling machine for the chippie/smithin/knockin shop...ha...getting far tooo busy here..

Oh, and rut in Langholm started this week, just came out of velvet, tis the lead up to the Common Riding on Friday...we're getting some temperature up here as well, hottin the place up, must be at least 70 fahrenheit!!! In Scotland that's hot enough the knickers right melt off the fanny...So all the lads have their nose up in the air this week...

later

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 18:09:44 (ZULU)

Ref. the savage stock by SSS try to copy and paiste this http://savageshooters.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1090317409 Or if you go to savageshooters.com look under the forums, then the general board- page one has a tital " sneak peak sss Tactical Stock" page 2 has a title of "SSS tactical stock Package group buy" give specs on the package.

Monty update: unfortunately I havent heard from mom and dad about it the medicine is working. Hope to reach them tonight. Will post when I have some news. Thanks to everyone for the preyeres!

Steve S
Ft. Bragg Area, NC., USA - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 18:44:48 (ZULU)

JR, Lathes.. yes..i need a bigger one,,

I thought i saw some European 260 brass somewhere? Norma mayby? not sure..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 20:10:38 (ZULU)

SPRINGFIELD SCOPES: Suck.

56mm obj. is unnecessary and overkill in my opinion.

Had two SPRINGFIELD ARMORY SCOPES FAIL MISERABLY while teaching a class last week. George overnighted 2 NF 3.5-50s and I got the guys rifles back in action. George, Marty and Eric gave us a shop tour last day after a drive up to KC. Great guys.

KEN M: Supply and Logistics Country indeed ... Do you know that friggin' Chang asked me to get him a CAR ! until his time there ends. Now THAT is faith in my abilities. Tall order ...

Supposed to be an article in the newest issue of SWAT on adoptasniper. I haven't seen it. Someone told me it was there.

Came home to a chest high pile of donations at the front door.

So far, 2 of "my" snipers have been wounded. Both by IEDs.

brian k. sain
Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 22:55:12 (ZULU)

Brian,

You "WENT DOWN ON SOME GUYS"??? Don't ask, don't tell, man!

Spurrit
Wichita, Kansas, USA - Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 00:32:39 (ZULU)

Hey Brian has to do lots of unmentionable things to get the troops gear. It ain't gay if you don't enjoy it:-)

Brian, you have no idea how FUBAR this place is without a vehicle. Jeff has a loaner from a LA Sheriff buddy right now, and it gets serious use as a platoon vehicle. We're looking good on tactical gear right now. Should be getting some stuff from Mike Miller and Marty at Badger too, as well as some stuff from Premier. Safariland 6004's and CQB MOUT slings. All courtesy of Uncle Sam. All at Div for approval right now, but looking good.

I have a $1300 LMT MRP upper coming from a friend on free T&E. Shipped yesterday. I'm hotlinking his site to my name, if you guys need AR parts patronize Billy, he's looking out for the troops and putting his money where his mouth is. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 01:21:09 (ZULU)

I have the SWAT article scanned if anyone wants to see it.

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 01:56:30 (ZULU)

.260 brass;

If you fellas in Europe find a good commecial .260 brass, let me know.

I went to the main brass case makers here looking to get .260 match quality brass made and it is quite expensive to get started. The least expensive was $4000 to do the tooling and then 50 cents per piece.

Lapua .308 can be necked down and .243 can be necked up but I don't like working brass.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 03:11:59 (ZULU)

Jody,

I have had good luck with necking down 308 Lapua brass. I run it into a 7MMx08 die first then use a 260 die. I neck turn it when I am done an have had no problems at all with this brass.

Pat
Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 14:30:05 (ZULU)

Jody,

I have been necking up Laupa .243 brass. Some pcs have six or more loadings on them...no issues and very good accuracy.

And now for something completely different...can anyone spot the ironic parallel between this story and the position of Europe on America's actions in Iraq?

http://www.adn.com/front/story/4110831p-4127072c.html

medicjim
Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 14:30:38 (ZULU)

I've been necking up Lapuas and necking down Lapuas. Too much work and time. It looks like I'm better off just buying a bunch of Remington brass and picking out the best ones. The last batch of Remingtons actually surprized me. I have enough of them now to last a while.

The Lapua is defintely better quality. I just don't like doing all that brass work.

What I still can't figure out is why the Lapua brass will develope donuts and the Lake City match won't.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 00:22:38 (ZULU)

This story sounds a bit off the scale. Does anybody in Wisconsin have an inside on this?

http://www.wisconsingunowners.org/

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 00:40:51 (ZULU)

re: forming brass

My guess would be that the LC brass is more heavily annealed than the Lapua.

As an experiment, you might try annealing the necks of a few Lapua cases and see if that keeps them from forming donuts when necked up or down.

To anneal:

From memory - place the cases to be annealed in a pan of water so that they're submerged about halfway, heat each neck and shoulder with a torch to a dull red, then tip into the water to quench.

Likely a good idea to wear eye protection.

The water also keeps the lower case body from being annealed (which would be very bad).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 00:59:25 (ZULU)

MK4,

Certainly doesn't sound kosher, but here is another article on it, and it talks of confiscating firearms as well.

http://wfrv.com/topstories/local_story_201224506.html

Oshkosh is not an overly gun friendly area as far as something like this goes: the cops aren't even trusted to take their firearms home. They have to lock them up at the PD when they go home.

All I can say is that if true, they're looking to get the weapon thrown out of court ..... if they find a suspect.

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 02:20:51 (ZULU)

Having the weapon thrown out of court? I'd think that would be the least of the worries.

If someone arbitrarily decided that certain constitutional rights weren't applicable to the situation, it would appear that they were not duly operating under color of law, and had decided as an individual to violate civil and constitutional rights of citizens.

They would be felonious home invaders in different clothes.

As much as I understand and sympathize with the reasoning of the police in this situation, I can also understand and sympathize with the reasoning of any citizen in treating illegal home invaders as such, regardless of the invaders choice of clothing.

Constitutional rights aren't just there when it's convenient for them to be, they're there as long as we keep them. If it was a matter of convenience, I would personally disallow the dnc to propagandize the public under their first amendment rights. Same applies for the kkk.

The constitution doesn't just protect those who aren't distasteful.

If they think they have a lead, then let them apply the lawyer system to the situation with all due haste. With all the "laws", it's all too easy to trample anyones civil rights under color of law. In other words, at least trample rights with the correct hoops of the lawyer system jumped through.

After all, as Mao put it, all political power -or in this case authority- flows through the barrel of a rifle.

And BKS, this is not one of those us versus them things, so please don't go there.

Jaeger
Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 03:48:38 (ZULU)

Lesson for today, Don't attempt to teach your 11 year old son to drive your jeep when the wifes volkswagen is parked in the vacinity. me and the boy are in the dog house and i have one more job on my list of many, fix the dent !!! bugger !!

I will check out over here sources of 260 Brass, i am bloody sure i saw some at the IWA, might have been Ruag/RWS, i'll email the euro ammo manufacturers and see what i can find.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 11:40:05 (ZULU)

Jaeger,

I am a firm believer in not getting my underwear in a twist until I have the facts. When the information comes from two websites that give very little information, I am skeptical about a lot of things. News media is not my first choice of information, but alas, usually the one that we get stuck with.

I understand your concern, and I am too, if the PD did what is claimed. However.....

Given that a K9 was on the scene, if a scent of something is picked up and tracked to a house, that would give cause for the police to make entry in this case (my opinion). Only due to the severity of the crime and how fresh it is....exigent circumstances. Would it be best to wait for a warrant? Yes. Is it required? In this circumstance, I don't think so.

Also, mention is made of search warrants being obtained...yet no details on if it was at one or more of the houses where the people are mad about police presence.

So, this is hardly a clear cut case of the police trampling on people's rights....

It is us vs. them.........the truth versus the news media.

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 13:22:44 (ZULU)

Probable shooter(s) in custody in Oshkosh:

http://www.wbay.com/global/story.asp?s=2064099&ClientType=Printable

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 13:49:12 (ZULU)

I didn't read the story everyone's talking about but there was one comment that I'd like to add to.

In my experience, the media generally has an agenda when reporting a story. It might be to sell papers (or commercial time), a political agenda involving the support for a particular view, or even a personal agenda involving someone's opinion about a subject. I'm sure that nearly everyone knows this.

That is every one but the sheeple who believe all the world is utopian in nature and the bad guys are within our own borders, usually in uniform of some sort. I've long since stopped watching the "Big Three" network news sources because they usually are pretty obvious in their attempt to make America look bad.

I wrote a letter to a local paper regarding this issue (and they printed it) that finished up saying that the "Big Three" doesn't like America because they don't say anything good about it any more. Now if I watch network news at all, it's of a "Fair and Balanced" nature.

It's amazing how the "Hollywood" crowd and the liberal media talk about how far off base the Law Enforcement community is when they make millions each year showing how bad our neighborhoods have gotten. And that without accepting responsibility for their part of the problem. Another word for extreme liberalism is anarchy. Too much freedom will cost us a great price.

As a former police officer and criminal investigator, I admit to seeing my share of inappropriate behavior on the part of a few cops. But for the most part, I'll support the police until I hear the story from other that news sources as well.

As for news sources, I'd rather switch to the "Fitness Channel" and watch the pretty girls sweat!!!!

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Vardaman, MS, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 15:48:57 (ZULU)

I heard on the local NPR radio station today that trail lawyers are estimated to cost the average family of four OVER $4000 USD per year in inflated cost of insurance, etc to cover thier fees.

Does anyone know where this statistic comes from? That means that trail lawyers cost more than education per capita in the US...that really is absurd if true.

medicjim
Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 16:56:22 (ZULU)

This may interest some of you Hog Hunters. They don't come this big even in Texas. I do believe "using enough gun" applies here.

http://www.local6.com/news/3589132/detail.html

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 17:37:04 (ZULU)

Mk4,

I was just about to post that. Thought it might get Pete to move to this side of the pond! HA

JLU

Joe Udelhofen
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 17:39:49 (ZULU)

The streets are nasty sometimes and mistakes are extremely unforgiving. Sometimes the cops make mistakes. Sometimes the citizens make mistakes.

If we're lucky ... the criminals make mistakes and that is why they get caught.

Law enforcement IS ... PEOPLE dealing with hurt PEOPLE or PEOPLE who have hurt PEOPLE.

Hard to get it right every time ...

Especially since only one PERSON was perfect and the PEOPLE he died to save ... killed him too.

If the cops were wrong, they deserve to get hammered. If not ... then not.

No argument here Jaeger.

brian k. sain
Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 17:50:09 (ZULU)

I can't help but wonder if the Wisconsin incident answers, or mirrors the result of, the age old question of confiscation, i.e., if the order is given, who will obey the order and who will willingly, or out of ignorance, roll over and just hand 'em over. I know this is a special circumstance but it would also be something similar, a "special circumstance", if the (to confiscate) order was given. The politicians will arrange a "circumstance" or event. I know there will be some dissent in the ranks of police who are asked to enforce it but I bet John Q. Public will roll over, if the "event" is realistic/sad/horrible/gross enuff. :(( I bet this whole story disappears as quickly as the mistakes that caused it.

Just my 02. worth, so please, officer('s), don't attack me. I'm picking on Mr. Publics' lack o' spine. Whoever shot that officer, as usual, should be punished to the letter of the law.

John

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 19:16:15 (ZULU)

John,

I've mulled this one over on occasion.

Do I retain my badge and fight the stupidity from within? Or do I become an instant felon, retain my firearms and fight the establishment?

While I don't dwell on it, that one can play havoc with your melon after a while. Going against all that I stand for to protect what the government might decide is no longer a 'good' or necessary part of our Constitution.

Do we then have 'The American Revolution, Part II' ? Or would it be referred to as an attempt at a coup of the standing Government?

And who doesn't think that other countries, seeing us battle ourselves at home, will try to invade and conquer the USA? Will that be what brings us back to reality?

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 19:35:36 (ZULU)

Exigent circumstances is a phrase that gets a lot of abuse. My .02 below.

Suspected child molester in a house with a kid? EC? Yep, take the door.

Suspected shooter in a house? What's he/she gonna do, build a blast furnace and melt the thing down? Wait for the warrant.

WR Moore
Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 20:22:57 (ZULU)

Sumpin sounds fishy on both sides of the fence about the Oskosh story but I can't put my finner on it. I'm sure there is a story somewhere with the actual facts. When the guy in the article stated that he came home and his safe was open and guns removed, I ask myself, SELF how did they get his safe open, torch, dynomite? If the LEO's entered a bunch of houses without warrants, the Oskosh courthouse is gonna be busy. If the people that were home were stupid enough to give them their weapons without a warrant, what can I say? Good time to have a video camera with audio, and pics and serial numbers of your guns in a safe place.

No-knock, no-warrant situations are too dangerous for both the LEO's and citizens to even be considered, even with adequate intel. Some damn body is gonna get killed by design or by accident. My old man retired a cop captain after 32 years on the force and his men would go out of the way to try to keep from apprehending someone at their home especially if there are other inhabitants at the abode. Way to friggin dangerous! There is no real reason to have to do this if enough survellance is done.

For a no-knock at my humble palace, they would have to kill my 90# GS dog to get by her and that would really piss me off. I am grumpy as hell when I wake up with the clock, not to mention with somebody busting down my door.

Just my humble son of cop opinion.

Bolt
NC, - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 21:26:00 (ZULU)

"If the people that were home were stupid enough to give them their weapons without a warrant, what can I say?"

Bolt, yes, these people were stupid enough to just roll over. But you know what? Maybe it's not a question of whether you know and understand your Constitutional rights.

Maybe it's a question of what do you do when a pissed off SWAT team beats on your door and demands that you turn over your weapons "for testing." Screw the 4th Amendment.

As I recall, a bunch of stupid people rolled over in the DC area a couple years ago when a pissed off "Task Force" started confiscating weapons "for testing" in the DC Sniper cluster fuck. Screw the 4th Amendment again.

Is this the beginning of a trend to acclimate the people to future confiscations "for testing?" Screw the 4th Amendment again.

If this shit continues, people will die on both sides of the door.

Moe

Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Thursday, July 29, 2004, at 23:21:53 (ZULU)

Hmmm, sounds like quite the crew for November at Badlands . . .

Doc, I got an email and replied, hope you got it. Time to lock that in is soon, before it's filled.

Prayers for all of you in need, and the various family members (we have a pretty large population here!)

John L
Mid-MO, U.S.A., U.S.A. - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 02:16:52 (ZULU)

I need help from all you RKIs: I need to figure the ballistic values for my three sniper rifles - all MilDot scopes - I need comeups in 1/4 clicks for 100/200/300/400/500/600/700/800 yds for the following:

.308 Remington 700 26" PSS Barrel 1:12 twist using Fed 168gr Match

.308 Remington 700 20" LTR Barrel 1:12 twist using Fed 175gr Match

and

.223 Douglas 24" Barrel 1:8 twist using Fed 69gr Match

Any help, up to and including actual ballistic values/comeups will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Chopper

Marc Parent
Hartford, CT, US - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 03:08:36 (ZULU)

Saw another truck sticker today ... PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS.

The power of prayer is biblical and therefore indisputable.

However, the best time I have found to "pray for the troops" is to do so ... as you are filling boxes of goods for them ... ehhh Bruce.

brian k. sain
Friday, July 30, 2004, at 04:04:26 (ZULU)

RE: Media bias, aka a mini-rant.

An example of what the major media not only doesn't report, but what they intentionally mis-report -- aka propagate disinformation -- on this link:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040719/opinion/19john.htm

(My definitions for "information" that is not fact:

Misinformation = "facts" stated which the author thinks are true.

Disinformation = "facts" stated which the author knows are not true, but

support their agenda.)

Unfortunately, disinformation can become misinformation when a naive reader or listener repeats the disinformation as fact!

End rant.

Jay Dee
Pasco, Washington, USA - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 05:09:12 (ZULU)

Any unannounced intrusiuon into a home with out exigent circumstance is a No No. In my pad it would be met with violence. Kill my dog to do it and killing the person wouldn't stop me from whacking him in to pieces as well. This from a cop too. And Bolt we know Sniper Mutt has no teeth, well they are beside his food bowl. (Just funning, I know talking about someone's dogs is a more serious thing than talking about some ones wife. This was just a funny.)

Jody, I posted a repily on the other site. Be gentle with me. (That didn't sound right) It's late I'm off to the rack.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
A Swift and Horrible Death to Our Enemies!, Texas, U. S. of A! - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 07:32:39 (ZULU)

Moe followed my line of thinking. I dont feel it's an organised effort but certainly one to be taken advantage of, by one side or the other, if there aren't severe PUBLIC ramifications. I never heard another word about the DC confiscations. I'd hate to find out that was the precedent in Wisc. :(

John

"Is this the beginning of a trend to acclimate the people to future confiscations "for testing?" Screw the 4th Amendment again."

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 11:22:48 (ZULU)

John L.,

Got your note. Thanks. Mailed the check and application; but haven't heard anything yet.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The soggy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 11:53:40 (ZULU)

Come bangin' on my door, yellin' at me to turn over my weapons for "testing" and we'll just start testing them right then and there.....when the police are acting lawfully, within the scope of their powers given to them by the PEOPLE, then there's no beef. When they (and I'm one of "they") start doing what the hell tey want because they can, or just because some assistant D.A. tells them to and no one in the chain of command has the balls to say "NO", then they (we) gotta expect to take what happens next. Dead cops are a tragedy, but only when they are upholding the law, not breaking it. I've had this discussion with Dirty Steve. If someone tells us to ge bust in a door and take firearms without constitutionally legal reasons to do so, we're probably gonna just laugh in their face and tell them to go do it. I'll notify the widow.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 12:17:43 (ZULU)

Bruce: Remember that box of goodies? It still has the goodies, but is travelling by ship with the rest of my stuff. I ran into a bit of a hassle over the bayonet affixed to a piece of wood. Seems a simple letter from an O5 would unscrew the hassle, but by the time everyone had the policy change, it was just as easy to ship it via hold bags and send it from my stateside addy. Expect a cool bit of souvenirs in september. Not forgotten, just customs' rejected as the policy changed...

Morgue: You still keepin up around here? If so: The sights were sent back to depot last month. Don't expect the shipment we talked about. We missed them by a a few weeks. Damn. Same thing on the PAQ2s. They purged all the cool stuff down here, and sent it in the wrong direction. Other than that, I hear the ACF gave me a send off with a five rocket salute on the heels of my departure. Did they hit anywhere near our merc buds? And do ya have a wall up yet? Or is the direct fire threat still looming on your doorstep? Say hi once and a while so at least I know you are still among the upright.

Steve B.: I may be getting a more direct flight, by-passing BWI. I'll know for sure tomorrow and then respond to your email. As good as a cold one sounds---saving eight hours of flight time sounds a bit better at this point. The equation goes like this: Beer or woman= woman THEN beer. After 15 months, I had to think about it though. Heheh.

Demo

Demo
Friday, July 30, 2004, at 12:32:25 (ZULU)

Here's a little tidbit of info I found useful. The website is authored by an attorney but don't let that color your views. Thank you, Calvin!

http://www.secondamendment.net/2amd7updated.html

John

edit to add, Here's another quote that kinda summarizes what I'm thinkin'.

In Disarm The Citizenry columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote, “Passing a law like the assault weapons ban is a symbolic - purely symbolic - move in that direction [a disarmed citizenry]. Its only real justification is not to reduce crime but to desensitize the public to the regulation of weapons in preparation for their ultimate confiscation.”(11) This came from the same website as mentioned above.

John
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 13:40:17 (ZULU)

Hey hawgs,

Well, I've gone ahead and done it again. I"ve "mixed it up" on another (non-shooting) board over Kerry. This is what this asshat posted....

"One speaker was General Shalakashvili, former head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.Gen. Wesley Clark also spoke . There was another general who was still Republican- who had advised Dean. He said that Bush waged war in an unprofessional way , a clumsy way that would gaurantee more enemies than friends. There have been several other generals who have spoken out on this . Also Col. Hackworth. Check out his website, he's not a liberal. Hackworth is the most decorated living veteran. I do, however , realize that military people are of split opinions on Bush. But he has cut their pay and benefits, and why any of them support him is hard for me to figure."

Now, what kinda ammo can y'all give me on these Generals? I know a little about Clarke (how Stormin' Norman and some others wouldn't support him for "moral reasons" etc), but not much about the others. Give me some ideas here fellers....

Rich

Rich S,
MD, - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 14:45:01 (ZULU)

This is from the same http://www.wisconsingunowners.org/ that the original story came from, dated yesterday. If true, the Captain of OPD wouldn't comment on what the reasoning was for confiscating the weapons....I can already hear KA-CHING of the cash register. I still don't understand the gunsafe guy...but the problem remains, if weapons were "taken for testing", a)what would they be tested against, since no fired projectile has been located and b)why wouldn't the PD leave a receipt for weapons seized? If they grabbed that many guns, how would they keep track of whose were whose? Someone on another forum said they'd be claiming that they owned a rare pistol that once belonged to George Washington....and it was worth a "bazillion" dollars. Small bills, please. KA-CHING!

I would hope that there are some serious repercussions out of this mess. VJ

The article:

Oshkosh police say 'Sorry' for trampling citizens' rights in door-to-door gun confiscations.

Oshkosh, Wis. -- In what appears to be an admission of wrong-doing by the Oshkosh Police Department, Fox 11 WLUK (Green Bay) has reported that area resident Terry Wesner was offered an apology by the department.

Police evacuated citizens from their homes within a quarantined area near Smith Elementary School Saturday night (July 17, 2004) to conduct a broad gun sweep of the neighborhood following the shooting of Oshkosh police officer Nate Gallagher.

Residents reported returning home from area shelters -- where they were herded by police -- to find their guns gone.

Others watched in awe as police took their firearms after giving police consent to search. Some were told by police their firearms would be subjected to ballistics tests, and would be returned.

"However, the bullet that hit officer Gallagher was not found," said Corey Graff, executive director of Wisconsin Gun Owners Inc. "So how can police conduct ballistics tests if there's no bullet with which to match the results? It defies logic."

Graff said the biggest issue is what he calls the department's "Guilty-until-proven-innocent" posture towards citizens.

In what appears to be a blatant knee jerk abuse of police power, the department unleashed the dogs — literally — when the Special Weapons and Tactics Unit (SWAT) showed up with its K-9 Unit to begin house-to-house searches.

According to media reports, the suspect fled on foot into the neighborhood, and has not been apprehended.

Warrants for searches were issued for at least two homes, (perhaps more) but homeowners in the area reported having all their firearms taken by police.

Some witnesses said the whole neighborhood was evacuated by force and citizens were being told – not asked, but told – to hand over their guns. Some weren’t even asked.

"That’s what makes me so mad," said resident Terry Wesner in an Oshkosh Northwestern report (July 20, 2004). "They had no reason [to remove firearms] without a warrant. . .I didn’t know they removed anything until my buddy, who’s staying with me, noticed they were missing. I thought you had to have a warrant to take someone’s guns." [Emphasis Added]

In a subsequent report, another resident, who worked the late night weekend shift, reported he came home to find a scene that looked like his home had been burglarized — he said personal belongings were thrown about — and his gun safe was empty.

"They didn’t even leave a note, telling me what was going on," the man said on camera.

An elderly woman said she woke up to find police — who were reported to be dressed in black, quasi-military gear — conducting a search in her home in the early morning hours.

"Did the fact that this poor senior citizen happened to live in the immediate area of the crime warrant "Reasonable Suspicion" or "Probable Cause" that she could have committed this heinous act?" asked Graff.

"Is Grandma taking pot shots out her kitchen window? Is she hiding something in the cookie jar?" He said.

In the same Oshkosh Northwestern report (July 20, 2004) Oshkosh Police Captain Jay Puestohl was reported to have, "declined to say on what grounds officers had the right to remove the firearms…"

"If officers were acting honorably and respecting property owners' rights, why not say so? Why not be upfront? Why the secrecy?" Graff said.

One resident in the neighborhood may have found himself the subject of the investigation simply by refusing to consent to a search (entirely within his rights) according to the news report.

The Oshkosh Northwestern story quoted one neighbor — who suspected homeowners who exercised their right to refuse consent to the heavy-handed searches, were presumed guilty by police — as saying:

". . .[T]hey’ve been downright rude to us. . .You don’t treat so-called civilians this way." [Emphasis Added]

The news story goes on to say that Captain Puestohl ". . .declined to say whether officers pursued the warrant because the residents refused a consent search."

This hysteria-driven Oshkosh neighborhood gun grab could establish a nightmarish precedent for a wide-open abuse of police power to be unleashed upon Badger State gun owners said WGO.

The silence from other gun rights groups on this issue is deafening.

"The institutional gun lobby is just as scared as the poor people in that Oshkosh neighborhood," Graff said. "They might be thinking, 'If I speak out, will my guns be next?'"

Wesner, one of the brave gun owners to speak out against the rash of gun confiscations that occurred after the shooting, said police confiscated his guns after entering his home without a search warrant.

He reported in a Thursday, July 22 television interview with WLUK-FOX 11, "They [the police] are not going to come in my home again [without a warrant]."

That same report stated that the police "acknowledged a lack of proper procedure [in not obtaining a warrant]."

Wisconsin Gun Owners Inc. said the most effective response for gun owners is to join and contribute to the organization's bold, no-compromise educational crusade.

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Friday, July 30, 2004, at 16:16:43 (ZULU)

Marc from Conn; if noone responded to your requests. It might be that the velocity is a needed component to do you much good.

Go to this

www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/ballistics.html

Try to enter the information for each one of your rifles.

You will need to check the option that corrects elevation for zero.

The column called drop will then provide you with the information at each range.

I will post it for you here if I had the expected velocity of the round you are shooting.

As you will see there are many factors in calculating your elevation settings. Barometer and humidity should not be ignored. Elevation in reference to sea level is a neccessity. You can arrive at a ball park figure by using the default settings indicated on the program.

Brogers
Friday, July 30, 2004, at 19:27:06 (ZULU)

This search and enter thing is distressing to say the least but even when the documents are in place. I have a little adversion to accepting probable cause when involves a dog's senses. That could be a consideration along with other circumstances. But maybe the dog has a sudden passion for donuts. I'd have to have my car torn apart or my guns confiscated without "probable cause" unless it's acompanied by some other circumstances. I knew a fella once who was confronted on a traffic stop with a request to search the vehicle. "Go right ahead, there's nothing there!" he invited. They ruined the car's interior and tore some wheels off before they gave up and let him go with no apology. Every story has a Moral;"Never drive a Continental alone across a poor part of Texas with dark glasses on."

Brogers
Friday, July 30, 2004, at 19:42:50 (ZULU)

"......... Residents reported returning home from area shelters -- where they were herded by police -- to find their guns gone...."

If this portion of the article is correct then what the OPD is guitly of is B&E, or unlawful entry, grand theft (neighborhood aggregate),

conpiracy to commit theft, and commission of a (several counts) felony while in possession of a firearm.

But the good citizens of Oshkosh will prolly say " Hey, no harm, no foul" and vote for kerry for a free America.

In some parts of our nation people get shot for this.

I'm back to lurk mode..................

Mike in Texas
Granbury, TEXAS, - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 01:21:11 (ZULU)

I LOVE the way you LE's responded to the Oshkosh fiasco.........

You are my kinda LE.

Citizens first, and LE second.........

I don't know you, but, I would, and am proud to call you FRIENDS.

Also, the response from others here............kudo's to you also.....

Brothers all, Americans FIRST.

God Bless You...........

My hat's off to you.

Two Shoes

Terry
Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 02:04:10 (ZULU)

"LE, etc".....

I was always taught LE = COP = "Citizen" of Peace.... I like it that way too :)

Do you all feel a raffle in the air ?... ;)

Semper Fi, Prayers for the Troops.....

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesvile, Va, USofA Under God - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 02:15:56 (ZULU)

Two Shoes: what you said!!!!!!!!!!!

VJ, email coming your way, no attachments.

Joe M: safe trip home mano.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 02:26:26 (ZULU)

Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, Riffle Raffle, etc.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 03:04:32 (ZULU)

John A.,

You have Incoming N/A !

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy., Indiana, U.S.A. !!! - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 04:50:24 (ZULU)

Rich S. They support him because waging war on thier turf is far better than letting it come to ours. My wife is there now and is hot and miserable. She still supports it becuase it is the right thing to do. Doing the right thing is often unpopular. But right is, well right. Ignoring the problem is wrong and a cowards way out. I will stand up quite firmly (except for my belly) when I see some thing wrong. I'm a Sheep dog(Responsible Citizen and cop). I will ignore anything if it is not bothering any one but the jackass doing it. Bother me or anyone who can not stand up for themselves and I'll be puttin a boot up some one's waazoo. Major Joe or Demo can chime in on this if they are about.

Two Feets, Being a good LE is knowing what is right and what is not. If my boss says go do this and I know on it's face it is wrong. I can not do it. Any cop for the smallest podunk department should know the Bill of Rights. Dang its only a couple of them that effect us as officers. The right to be secure in your possessions(No Warrantless searches with out exigent circumstances), the right to keep and bare arms (except for street thugs) and the right for the Bad Guy to shut the hell up, and for convicts to have cable TV(At least I think that ones in there too).

Ken, I smell it too. It smells like I may win also.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
A Swift and Horrible Death to Our Enemies!, Texas, U. S. of A! - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 06:02:09 (ZULU)

Chopper,

What Bill said...to get the answer you need some numbers, some constant values, like Muzzle Velocity, and Ballistic Coefficient of the boolit, those are the two biggies..Exbal might have the rough estimation of the loaded factory rounds, might get ya close...

Right, Common Riding went well, no one died as far as I know, jes a few brain cells...Simmer Fair is in toun park as well so hit that, as there is a helluva burger van with the best of the greezy food parked there, oh yeah, I ate a tonne, and Jon, there was ANOTHER one parked in front of me hoose, so I could top up 'fore the long flight of stairs...Wonder if heaven is like that... didn't get carried away on the drink but had a ball with the ones who did.....pretty much just got the drunks kicked out of the hoose, put 'em on cleanup duty as they decided to invade and that it was a good idea to cook breakfast..

But I'm off to see Welshman Jon and his missus, and the LDC (Lake District Crew), so catch you fowk on the backflip..

Later

JR
Muckletoon, Scotland, Scotland - Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 09:03:41 (ZULU)

Rich S:

I feel a rant comin' on...President Bush has my full support. Not unqualified, but rather because of his resolute beliefs in protecting our country and his desire to limit tax and spend stupidity. I qualify it on the basis of a handful of advisors that I take issue with, but I digress. I can give you my personal "why" I support the incumbent then my personal "why" I cannot support the challenger...

For 23 years, I traveled about with more than a little AT training under my belt. As a MIL type guy, I had ROE commensurate with the then current policy--aka "police matter" approach to AT. I cannot begin to tell you how many real bad people I saw in small arms' range during the mid eighties, but to have capped one or all would be a war crime. Myself and compadres chaffed at the mentality of "not giving them the status of statehood by waging a military campaign..." because to us, dead was dead regardless of status. We saw it that simple, and also, first-hand, that the problem was too large for a LE / court approach. To us, many would (and did) die due to this underestimation of the problem of terrorism. Then came 9/11 and the gloves off approach. By god, finally! Let us have at 'em! This guy, Pres Bush, saw it for what it was---a wide war against freedom that REQUIRED a Mil response. That sold me. Then, the thinkin' part of me likes the tax reform. If you tax the rich shakers and movers unfairly---who is going to pay the salaries for all these jobs the "other guy" also proposes? It seems to me that when I retire, I'd want a guy who can afford me to still have the cash to pay me (and not taxed away in Washington). Nothing personal---but the middle classes' 10K in discretionary income ain't my idea of a salary...think about that...

Now, the alternative. What leadeship does he offer my country? Lets look at his big claim: Vietnam. OK, so he has a chestful of medals. Who wrote those citations? Wasn't he the only officer present on his boat? Hmmmm. But more important---wasn't that a full year tour of duty? Now there is the big rub. The taxpayers pay us officers to do two things....train like hell and be all they can be SO THAT they can in turn take care of America's sons and daughters when the chips are down. I have spent 15 months over here---and I had that family problem I could have used to bag out of here. My wife and I talked about it---and the expectation for all my training, all my excellent benefits--is that when the time came---I'd be right here doing what I do. So, I just executed--we both thought this was how it had to be regardless of our personal reasons to dodge it. That is the minimum standard of leadership. A leader stays with his troops. Period. To pull pitch and abandon them for personal gain is, well, self-serving crap that has no place in the military let alone the officer corps. Leaders just don't do that. And John Kerry did. Would you send your son or daughter to war with a guy like that? Shit, the guy was so into the "experience" as a career move that he filmed re-enactments. Some leader....and that is his claim to leadership? That is pathetic. I would never vote for this guy---but Leiberman might---just might---have gotten our support. Kerry is no leader---he is an opportunist who abandoned his duty with a chestful of hearts that cost him how many days in what hospital? I musta missed that info...Shit, I have scratches and bruises I can't explain....maybe I missed something along the way and "failed" to cover myself in his style of glory. On the other hand, maybe I have tremendous respect for institutions and customs; maybe I take this thing too seriously(?)---maybe there is a huge difference between my definition of hero and the medias' definition. I judge for myself---and my take is "no way I want this guy leading my country." Nothing about his record suggests he is remotely capable of resolute action---and our enemies today will seize us by the throat at the first sign of trepidation. I expect to fight the next battle in the midwest if this guy comes to pass. I mean I fully expect it. You folks on the left and right coasts will have your own battles. The sham