Friday, July 11, 2003, at 00:53:17 (ZULU)
It's kind of hard to explain that but if you zeroed the 100 yard reticle and the 800 both the scope was obviously canted to line up with both groups as everyone present observed.
Prior to first noticing this I had shot mostly very high power target scopes at ranges around 300 or so with fairly precision bench rest matches. This isn't noticable at 300 and under but brings me to the spin drift theory regarding rapidly falling bullets more likely as expressed by Lito last week. Prior to that I had not realized that spin drift was associated with falling bullets or even density of air. But it did compute as far as I can see. 3" is very conservative but I've also found air movement is hard to detect and can also fool you. Hence the reversing of the course direction experiments. I have found that I sometimes am dealing with air currents and you must be wary of that. But the bullets always go right in any case. Heavier slower (more trajectory)bullets seem more affected. As I said, I recently started shooting 110 Gr. A max's for .308 coyote loads and noticed very little shift at 500. I didn't do the reverse thing with it yet though. Perhaps there was air currents I didn't detect involved in that. The grooves cut by the lands may indeed have more effect than is presently realized. Large Artillery shells not withstanding there may be different factors not discovered yet. Yes, it may be something simple as that is the way of scientific testing. I am just waiting for some explanation and yes, the effect is observable on different rifles as long as they shoot knats ass groups. I'm not known for blowing group size over the long term. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have ever mentioned this. Give me a zero wind and I'd bet you'd do the same thing.
I know this is boring the hell out of those who have their minds made up so I'll shut up about it now.
Alan; I think you said the same thing I did on the black powder subject anyway I agree completely but the inlines and scopes are working their way in to the regular hunting seasons. Colorado has done a better job than my state at keeping the spirit of primitive hunting alive. It's hard to keep the gamers out.
Brogers
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 00:53:17 (ZULU)
"Load was 44gr. Varget, weighed on RCBS 505, metered by Redding 3BR.
First problem, 44grs of Varget is WAY too much for FGM Brass.
42, maybe 43 MAX.( this case has nearly exactly the same capacity as LC, and is about 10% as tough.)
175gr. SMK seated at 2.800" OAL using Wilson straight line seater.
"Cool....."
WLR (120) primers, seated with RCBS hand seater flush with case head.
Neck-sized only using Redding Comp. bushing die with .334" bushing.
"Another no no..... .334 bushing is TOO much NT for FGM brass.it squashed like a bug.( you probably had .007/.010 NT.).
For 175's, w/ FGM, a .337 bushg, would give you .003 N.T.".
Case neck lubed with Hornady One-Shot.
Rifle was my KMW M40A1 with Palma 95 chamber, and was also the same rifle that the original loaded ammo was fired in.
"Tighter chamber, custom tube...just exacerbated the other problems....
I have seen NUMEROUS FGM .308 factory rounds, ruined, the first firing in a SAMMI spec factory chamber...they are crap...too soft, and personally, I think designed to be NOT reloaded.
Have seen very few FGM cases, stand up to repeated firing, with anything except 2500fps loadings.".
Just my experience, and fwiw big guy.....(:
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:20:12 (ZULU)
Painted up like a bench rifle and had a row of rhinestones across the front. Looked like one of my MawMaws earrings.
A big bass will take it off if she dangles it off a dock.
Yeeeecchhh.
... just thought I'd share that.
brian k. sain
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:25:43 (ZULU)
Since you folks seem to be having FGM brass concerns I decided to go to the range and chronograph a new batch of .338 Lapua. I gave up on FGM brass some time ago when Lapua gave me the results and case life I wanted...
.338 Lapua Test Load:
300 Gr. SMK
Fed 215 Match Primer
Lapua Case (new)
90.0 Gr. Hogdon's Retumbo
OAL: 3.600"
Interstingly enough, this same load gave me better velocity by 75 FPS in another lot of fired Lapua Brass. Think I'll get one large lot and work with it...
1. 2,704 (cold bore)
2. 2,700
3. 2,684
4. 2,732
5. 2,702
6. 2,722
7. 2,706
8. 2,726
9. 2,722
10. 2,714
High: 2,732
Low: 2,684
ES: 48
Ave: 2,711
A small lot of Factory Lapua 250 Grain Lock-Base FMJ's chrono'd:
1. 3,034
2. 2,999
3. 2,975
4. 3,041
5. 3006
High: 3,041
Low: 2,975
ES: 65
Ave: 3,011
Am going to encrease the OAL of the first load to 3.700" and increase the charge. Want to wind up with about 2,750 FPS and good accuracy. The load shows promise when I'm doing my part. Unfortunately, I occasionally throw one shot and it makes it look like I'm shooting an improved cylinder gun.
May just go back to my .308. I KNOW it loves me!
All for now. Thought the .338 shooter's out there might be interested. More as the story unfolds. I'm liking George's work.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 03:19:12 (ZULU)
Same powder lot. I bought four 8 lb. jugs (same lot) three years ago. In fact, all loads from this jug have been identical to those preceding it. Hornady 'One-Shot' is a case lube, not a cleaner. Easiest and best lube that I've found! These reloads were only three days old. I don't think that I was very clear on my last post, this rifle, incl. barrel and chamber, is not new and was the rifle that fired the factory loads that these cases came from. I think that Shoes might just have the answer! See below.
Shoes,
I'm going to go out and get a .337" bushing and drop the load to 43gr. and see what happens. I've got a bunch more of this GMM brass to burn up, and if sucessful that's just what I'll do. Otherwise they'll visit the Dumpster before ever seeing another chamber!
Thanks a lot, guys.
'yote bait,
Sounds like we're on the same page. I've really got to admire the guy who goes out and hunts black powder with the traditional equipment. I'm much too lazy to stuff 'em through the front, and the cleaning's a real mess, although I've found that Shooters Choice 'Black Powder Gel' is a godsend in that respect.
Mr. (in)Sain,
Yuk, that toe nail reminds me of my MeMaws nose, God rest her soul. She was from Plaquemine Parrish. At least that was her excuse:-))
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 03:29:58 (ZULU)
Karl:
>>> (I hear the superconducting supercollider near Waxahachie, Tx is available) <<<
They never finished that, did they???
Sharron
(Larry)
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 03:53:03 (ZULU)
Bolt
NC, - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 03:55:20 (ZULU)
CDC'
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 05:25:45 (ZULU)
Had the same thing happen with 175 gr Federal GMM Factory rounds in SCLE #44. After the second primer launched I gave up on Federal.
brian k. sain,
That visual about the toe nail is one I coulda done without. Yeeeecchh is right. I may never eat ice cream again.
jc
Jcopeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 05:36:26 (ZULU)
Damn, Brian. Big women...I like to make them wimper.
Must be 'cuz I'm only 5'4".
AND she could scoup my ice cream, too...
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 06:25:41 (ZULU)
Don Rutledge- I'm trying to find the actual address for Pala so I can e-mail you with a Mapquest. If you want more info call Precision Arms in Escondido at (760)489-1212 and ask for Gene Luke, the owner, and tell him I sent you. He's a big Pala shooter and overall nice guy to boot.
Stay safe,
Joe S.
Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 06:35:51 (ZULU)
You gonna be there during last week in July? and did you get the reamer price?Do you want anything European bringing over?Same for you too Jon?beer whatever.
Spin drift, i'm more concerned about shitty warne ring drift at the moment.
NEVER GO TO THE WOODS WITHOUT YOUR RIFLE. bugger it, i went to fill up the bait feeders yesterday afternoon, got all done and was on my way out of the woods, hadn't the rifle with me, what is stood in the middle of the track to my left, a damn fox. bugger stood watching me, how is it they know when you are not armed? shit i thought, must be stupid or has rabies or something to be stood about at this time of day(16.00hrs) hmmmm i carry on down the blinking track, i haven't gone 50m when what is stood in the track i'm on? a bloody Roe Buck, er whats going on here then, no rifle and i'm seeing game in the middle of the day. bugger. Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 06:52:47 (ZULU)
Now I have to agree:
My youngest is called "Raegan" for reasons I foolishly informed my bride of after the fact. She has since gotten over the fact that she has a girl named after a president. Heheh.
Rick: where was this site twelve years ago when I scalloped my eye with an early M3 set for sitting at the bench??? Of course, for me to learn the hard way is really learning!
On origins of "Dope": French, dopen. "To figure out." Since the french came up with it, how ya'll feelin using it? Heheh. Buncha damn frogs...
Okay, so the war is a lot of boredom; I have time to look at shit like this.
Speaking of which--maybe pushing a lead escort out parrallel to my path 400-600m either side of the road sweeping forward a klick or so isn't the way to get into the shit. Then again, maybe I don't wanna be a hero either....very quiet ride for my folks. Not so for the guys just an hour behind us though. RPG damage. Took out a load of ice! We must've run em home and they flowed in our wake. Now if I could just convince folks that staying on the road for escorting convoys is dumb....I'm just another major...whudda I know anyway.
Joe m
Joe Mahon
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 12:30:49 (ZULU)
Brogers
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:19:37 (ZULU)
Don Rutledge
Hemet, CA, U.S.A. - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:26:43 (ZULU)
Hell, as long as I've been a cop, the only thing that'll turn my stomach anymore is a big pair of titties on my back.
brian k. sain
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:27:18 (ZULU)
I haven't had any trouble with Fed brass as of yet. I am still shooting 168s and have a chamber that was cut for a Fed Match 168. I would suspect the chamber esp since you said "Palma" A lot of the Palma guys shoot 155s or 168s. You may have a chamber cut for a specific bullet design.
My sons 308 has the same chamber as mine and he could not shoot military loaded 175s without pressure because the bullet was wedging into the lands. If he ran them throuh the seater die first they were fine. This was with the early 175 load and I know they were hotter than they are now. Don't know if this helps or not but just a thought.
Joe...
Sounds like your a bit smarter than the average duck over there. Keep yourself safe and God bless!!
Pat
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:33:19 (ZULU)
Boltster....looks like we have a hell of an FClass team going !!!!! Did you notice who won the fist record target.....I'm hooked and will be back in October !!!!!
"Master JRMoore"
JRMoore
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:43:22 (ZULU)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40916-2003Jul10.html
"In Iraq, we sought to mitigate damage to the civilian populace. And we understandably wanted to preserve infrastructure; and thus allowed thousands of Baathists to melt back into the civilian fabric without a systematic roundup of their leadership..."
"Thousands of them now wonder whether killing an American or two isn't such bad sport, since they got off so easily during the real war; and wager that such magnanimity will still be typical rather than exceptional. The result is that we must now hunt down reprieved diehards one by one, at much greater danger and cost..."
"...Our duty instead is to remind Saddam's rag-tag murderers that they will only meet the same fate as diehard Waffen SS, Japanese holdouts on Okinawa, foolish attackers at Khesahn; and anyone else who has made the fatal mistake of thinking they would survive a shootout with enraged Americans."
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson071103.asp
Joe M: Be smart. Good luck. We appreciate the work you and your good men are doing.
Kill these vermin.
Bill: The infantry calls something similar to the formation you mention the "traveling overwatch." Convoys like Joe's use similar techniques.
CDC'
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:52:32 (ZULU)
Joe M - What is the effective range of those RPGs...200 yards? Maybe the US needs to do a "roads improvement" project on the route... bulldoze everything on both sides of the roadway into a gentle upward slope away from the hardtop... making for a superb backstop for HMG fire. In the fire service, the guys that wish for a 'worker' give me the willies...they usually get their wish
"DOPE" - So, the French invented dope, eh? Why doesn't that surprise me? The French word 'Cran' was very widely used in WW1, probably most often when observing the actions of the British and American troops <my guess
medicjim
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:52:40 (ZULU)
Remember our discussion the other day on tactical matches and equiptment??? Was just reading on another sight where a guy was complaining because he was disqualified at a military rifle match because he had changed barrels on his rifle, even though it was still a military barrel of the same make.
Some agreed and others disagreed with the ruling but one of the guys mentioned about the "Hunting" rifle matches they have and how some guys were going so far as to buy factory barrels in a bunch to try to find a good one to gain an edge. so the rules were changed an now they let you have any barrel as long as its the same weight and contour. He said its now a walking BR rifle. The only saving grace is that you have to shoot on your feet which seperates the men from the boys.
Just like we said if theres money involved or even competition its human nature to want to win, some will do it at all costs.
Pat
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 14:54:53 (ZULU)
Thanks. The chamber is a Palma 95, but throated for the 175SMK at 2.800". Since the brass was the only variable and this has never happened before in this rifle with identical load and different brass (W-W and FN) I'd say that the brass is my prime suspect. Especially after reading what jc and Shoes posted on this, and if my recollection of what 'lito and Sinister both posted (a while back) is correct. As far as the 168SMK I don't know that there'd be any difference in the throat specs from that of the 175SMK providing they're both seated at 2.800" OAL.
Picky military match officials - I remember back in (about) 1998 if you competed in Service Rifle with a Mouse Gun you'd be in for holy hell when you arrived at an 'M14 range' to compete with your Matty Mattel! It wasn't the derision that the M14 shooters were throwing out, they knew that the handwriting was on the wall for them. It was the officials trying for any excuse to disqualify the mouse. I even had one a**hole try to tell me that my A2 upper wasn't legal 'cause "everyone knows that the M16 doesn't have elevation adjustable rear sights, thats gotta be a Match Rifle"!!! It's a sad state of affairs when some competitors are trying to game themselves in and some officials are trying to game you out. Not so promising for drawing new blood to our sport.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 16:21:19 (ZULU)
A hunting rifle match should be open to any rifle that you would use for hunting( and i don't mean varminting with these heavey bench rest guns) ( they have hunting rifle matches here and scope magnification and barrel weight are run on strick guide lines) but to me a sniper rifle is by definition a hunting rifle, the reverse is not nesseceraly the case.
Marco, Val and Sander with thier TRG's and SSG's proved last year in Scotland that you can hunt successfully with factory sniper rifles, but would those same rifles have been allowed in a hunting match? i doubt it (maybe the SSG)and wether i'd carry one to hunt is a different matter.
But like every one has said, when big money gets thrown into the situation if fucks thigs up, same thing happening in a lot of the hunting opertunities world wide.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 16:21:54 (ZULU)
The boys down here are not allowed alcohol and are restricted to post. They do have Warsteiner alcohol free and after a week of so it's not too bad as a soda. I don't like sweet drinks so it's that or water.
http://rho.lautard.com/
Marc Palmer
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 16:47:28 (ZULU)
Correction...
That factory Fed GMM that the primers blew on was 168gr, not 175gr. I failed to engage my brain before actuating the keyboard. Otherwise known as an eye-dee-ten-tee error.
jc
jcopeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 17:00:19 (ZULU)
Hell had nice post yesterday but cant find it. Looks like I sent to never never land instead of on here.
Brogers, I did my 50 now your turn for talking Spin Drift also.LOl
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller
CA, - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 17:16:08 (ZULU)
Just got a 7mm Rem mag Sendero. I'd like to tweak it a bit -- not to make me shoot any better, but to remove another variable from the shooter + rifle equation.
At any rate, the archives refer to a "recoil lug" for the Model 700, and Badger makes an after-market recoil lug. However, I can't find any reference to a recoil lug in either the Remington Model 700 parts list, or their schematic. Could someone please enlighten me as to the function of this component, how it works, where to find it on the gun, and the usefulness of replacing it?
Thanks.
Jeff
Jeff C
NB, Canada - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 17:35:25 (ZULU)
To quote from the American Rifleman (I'm sure all here are NRA Members, if not, hang your heads in shame):
"The American Rifleman has used the phrase 'Dope Bag' at least since 1921, when Col. Townsend Whelen first titled his column with it. Even then, it had been in use for years, referring to a sack used by target shooters to hold ammunition and accessories on the firing line. 'Sight dope' also was a traditional marksman's term for sight adjustment information, while judging wind speed and direction was called 'doping the wind.' "
And then there's "pipe dope".......not what you think...a thread sealer for plumbing connections.
Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 17:41:52 (ZULU)
Hot damn! Plumbing Country!
Jeff C.
The recoil lug on the Remmy is between the barrel and receiver. To replace it, you must remove the barrel, possibly requiring changes in headspacing and threading. Then your stock would have to be reamed to fit the thicker lug. You should only consider that option/need later when you are replacing a shot out 7MM barrel.
Look at just getting a professional bedding job done on your current stock, or purchase a better stock from one of the better makers.
Just shoot the sucka a bunch!
Les
Les
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 18:11:57 (ZULU)
Thanks for the quick reply!
Got the Sendero b/c I thought it came with a pretty decent stock... not sure I want to run out and replace it right away. I do plan on trying to shoot the barrel out (I know this isn't quite what you said, but...) so I need to get reloading equipment before I think about a new stock. I'm fortunate enough to have a 200m range within 10 minutes of my house, and the base shooting club will get me out onto a 400m range at least once a week. We can also get the 600m range if we give range control enough notice. Not bad for $20/year!
Jeff
Jeff C
NB, Canada - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 18:26:05 (ZULU)
Moe Mensale
Boca Raton, FL, US of A - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 18:47:57 (ZULU)
"Gooch; just not so fast there, if you zero at 500 or 700 where ever then your off at 100. Spin drift is not linear or consistant(* edit by that I mean it varies with range but never reverses or lessens as range increases.)however you wanna put it."
Dats not whut I say bro...
I be sayin....
"WHen you get a zero at a certain distance spin drift is part of the zero."
The operative word is "at a certain distance". I shoot and confirm my zero at 600 yards then I have compensated for SD and bullet drop at 600 yards. I have not compensated for SD or drop and any other distance...However if I shoot and record the data for other distances then I am hooked up.
I would venture to say that you have more error imparted on the flight of the bullet by changing cheek pressure on the stock than you will get off of Spin Drift. In other words....sweat the fundamentals not the physics..
Out
Gooch
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 19:08:13 (ZULU)
>>just how much MOA do then Scotts girls like to talk about when refering to your 20cm zero?
Measure that in moans, not moa's...
I think sniper rifle matches should allow any type of rifle, any cartridge, any stocks, any optics.. that's right, anything..Why? because at the end of the day, a sniper match isn't about groups, 10 times out of 9 you ain't gonna be beaten because of how the rifle shoots.. You'll be beaten because your hot pink Palma supercharged 32 inch heavy barreled single shot paper puncher quickly catches you out on the stalk, and you're dead by the first hour after low crawling and lugging the mini howitzer thru the muck, or you misread a range call..not many bench rifles are gonna make it thru a hard charging course eh, not many benchresters are gonna make it thru the course...They like to shoot holes in paper at known distances, cowards..What I don't think they should be allowed is laser rangefinders..
later
JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 19:21:11 (ZULU)
Bruce; The first thing I thought of was pipe dope but Mike would have give me 50 more days of pushups to do for plumbing anything but a scope reticle!
Mike check with me in 50 days. I'll have em done by then.
CDC; That's (traveling overwatch) kinda familar but I can't remember where I heard it before if I have. It's probably old hat to Joe.
Brogers
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 20:08:42 (ZULU)
Any rifle and cartridge is just fine with me IF all "Sniper" or "Tactical" matches include a demanding hump and stalk. Not all of them do, and many of them won't!
How can anyone wonder why the D&L Shoot has evolved into a target match lately if they've ever seen any of Dave Lauck's abominations? There, I said it! Roll cages with dual headlights, Honda portable generators with barrels, or scoped chainsaws with bipods, they're soon gonna need a truck with a lift gate to get them to the line. And what's with two pairs of scope rings on a .308, or on anything for that matter? Even the guys that manufacture the rings (the honest ones anyway) think that that's ridiculous and probably detrimental.
That said, I think that a competition either has to be demanding enough to weed out the gamers or keep them out by enforcing set rules.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 20:42:15 (ZULU)
He just called here at the office a little while ago to ask if I'd gone to the Gun Shop over lunch to look at it. I said that I had and that it looked ok to me.
What he doesn't know is that it is in the back of my car right now and will come home to him as a gift tonight. He deserves it. Damn! I do love that boy.
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 21:12:51 (ZULU)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=17&u=/ap/20030711/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_nuclear
We gave the world Adam Sandler and Baywatch so who are we to talk?
CDC'
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 22:40:42 (ZULU)
I once,at a BS Police Sniper Match a guy with a High Power Comp jacket on. It still bugs me to see guys at Sac with sand bags tied to buttstock swivel.
I say everyone has to ruck it, drag it or stash it. No sniper matches that allow you to remove gear from trunk of car and have luch at Chevy's!
On the CS bad guys shooting at US Military guys in Iraq. I say lets start bring the game to them. A few BG's fall while setting up and not many want to find a ffp to shoot at the US from. Nothing like counter sniper opps to solve a sniper problem.
Undude
Mike Miller
CA, - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 23:00:49 (ZULU)
I dreamed up a sniper challenge about 15 years ago. You had to take a map and go over about 15 miles of terrain and find the shooting points. Shoot the target with your color and not get spotted while carrying all your gear. Then get away. Sleep and eat out. Nobody took me up!
Can't do it anymore but that's the way it should be done.
Brogers
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 23:18:40 (ZULU)
Gooch
Friday, July 11, 2003, at 23:36:03 (ZULU)
Undude/Mike
MikeMIller
CA, - Friday, July 11, 2003, at 23:37:57 (ZULU)
Gooch, I don't suppose the Canucks would let a Jersey firefighter come and play?
medicjim
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 02:24:03 (ZULU)
So, could I interest you in adopting a 32 y/o musician/grad student? ;)))))))
All,
Now to the actual "important" quesiton I had.
A good friend/coworker has a friend who has a gunshop. This guy (shop owner)also has a large chunk of land that he shoots on (full auto, you name it it's fair game). I'd like to go up there with 'em some time to try and see what SCLE #35 can do at ranges greater than 200 yds (all I have access to now). I had mentioned the possibility of shooting "iron maiden" type targets, BUT when shooting gongs etc, what are the concerns of riccochet/splatter and how much distance do you want to leave? Assuming (yes I know what happens when one ASS-U-Me's), the bullet impact is dead-nuts on perpendicular to the target will the bullet more or less "splatter" and be the end of it, or will it fly off to regions unknown only to hit some neighbors kitty (or God forbid, worse) miles away. What kind of precautions do you guys take when shooting "steel", I've never done it before.
Thanks
Rich
Rich S.
MD, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 03:04:42 (ZULU)
WHEW............!
Had me worried, 50 year old idiot, another forum, BUT I don't live at Mommy's house, so I am safe!!!...LOL
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 03:50:58 (ZULU)
M-14 NM sight set up for Weaver/Picattiny. Looks good. But who knows?
Follow the thread. Lots o' pictures.
http://www.battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=15406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Spud
Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 04:17:06 (ZULU)
Well, back to the canoe and the trout, boys. See Ya'll....
Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 04:18:08 (ZULU)
Hey while we're on competitions ...
I know it bugs some of you guys to no end about not being able to shoot Sniperweek, etc. It exists the way it does specifically to forego all of the problems you guys have been speaking of.
Cops/Mil only. Duty rifle only. Duty ammo only. Non-profit event with good prizes for the winners. No bozos. No whiners. No bitchin'.
Each course of fire is based on an actual callout that some cop somewhere experienced in his career.
Sniperweek and the New England Sniper Summit are both set up this way. These events run incredibly smooth.
Sniperweek this year had 72 Teams competing.
brian k. sain
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 04:26:51 (ZULU)
G.W
Gavan Willis
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 05:26:48 (ZULU)
WR Moore
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 06:25:58 (ZULU)
Been away for a while, just read the message backlog of the Roster. On targets, I like the benchrest target stamp I got from sinclair, for fine practice. I'm going to start putting it on 1/4" graph paper (thanks for the Idea!) I also use a bunch of other stuff to keep it interesting. For a long time I used mostly paper grocery bags with a 2" box drawn on them. At the time I thought 400 yds was long. New world now. If you hold a paper grocery bag up to your chest you'll see why I like them. Also they are low contrast and make you work a little (alot in NY fall).
Another fun target and game is my version of Sniper Golf. I have a friend who gets all the balls out of the local water hazards. All the "smilies" go to the farm. At the farm I set up on top of a shed (fairly flat roof) with a couple of sand bags and my Rem. VS .308 PMSR (Poor Mans Sniper Rifle) He drives balls out into a field and I try to hit them, when they stop rolling. Luck is with me and I'm getting better at hitting them than he is. He's Really bad at golf. At 100 yds my barrel can hit them with fed. match, and I can too, most of the time. The range isn't long but the watch starts when he hits the ball and stops when I do. As long as I can find it.
Last summer I almost got arrested for a violation of municipal code- "I don't know if what your doing is legal or not but I don't like it!" (You L.E. know what it really is called) I was shooting (AT) wig heads. I got 70+ slightly used white styrofoam heads normally used to display wigs and hats. They were "Theater Trash" left in my theater by a visiting company. If that wasn't bad enough, I had given some of them a quick spray job with flesh tone floural paint. Oh you guys need to know about floural paint. First off you can spray it straight on foam. second, it is designed to not gunk up fibers( natural or synthetic) It comes in great Natural colors and drys fast. It is simply awsome on ghillie suites, Keeps the fuzzies but makes them what ever color you want. Some is water soluable, most are permenant. Read the can. You can usually find it at mall "craft" stores that "close associated spotters" love so much. Also check out "florists wire". If asked, tell them your "making Props for a show". You can explain away the buying of almost anything with that excuse. Anyhow, I was setting up my heads on a private range, Putting them on five foot stakes at 200-500yds. local deputy stops by to test new dear gun. He was a new hire so I didn't know him from the local VFD/EMS-L.E. community. He was in uniform so when he arrived I pulled my bolt and stood up from the rifle (bolt in shirt pocket-hands empty and visable). At first he was Neighborly and shook my hand when I introduced myself and explained that I had permission to shoot there. Then he started eyeing my rig.(?!!!) Then when he went to post his targets at 50 yds he noticed my targets...!!! Heads on pikes, BAD. Shooting Heads On Pikes, WORSE. He didn't know quite what to do so he called for another unit and asked if I would mind "just sitting quietly, AWAY from my gear" I ended up knowing the Four deputies that showed up, so the problem went away for me. Two days latter I was back at the same location with one of the deputies, doing the same thing again. The poor, new guy got to explain why he was testing his new deer gun when he should be patrolling RT 86. In the end the Sherriff's Office ended up "confiscating and destroying" 30 foam heads, With my help and blessing. They do make great targets.
Well enough yapping,
Back to my "Dusty Tomes"
-CRITTER
Web Crittenden
Upstate NY till I had to come back out of the woods., - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 07:29:13 (ZULU)
Don't know many details, as I am not a sniper -- just someone who loves to shoot. At any rate, they still run the Sniper Concentration here eveyry year. (You mentioned that us Canucks "used to run" it at Camp Gagetown.) If anyone wants more info, I'm sure I can dig up a POC for them.
Jeff
Jeff C
NB, Canada - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 12:01:51 (ZULU)
Mike; A thousand pardons! I had a instructor once that called me Mr. with nothing else behind it. Sounded like a Marine Drill Sargent.
Steel; usually mild steel is penetrated up to about 200 meters but don't use AP or FMJ, I guess that goes without saying but usually a mile behind is safe enough. Most bullets will break up and the trajectory takes care of the rest. We've shot for years with 1/2 mile safety zone with no incidents. But the area isn't heavily populated behind. I'd want at least a mile unless the targets are half mile or better already. Don't try that with 50's or Full Auto they tend to climb in inexperienced hands. We have shot several BAR's and M-60's at that half mile range but it probably isn't a good idea. We turned it around recently to get a mile behind for reasons that a bypass was going through cutting our 800 yards to 200 for a safety zone. Oh yeah, some targets were made of tank armor and that stops everything but a nick might be interesting. Oh yeah, you have to rim the armor gong in a frame or something cause the armor is hard to weld too with normal stuff.
Brogers
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 12:58:12 (ZULU)
Here is what a friend built for his 400 yd range to keep the bullets from straying. A 4X8 piece of armor plate on top of I beams for a base. The armor plate is angled to guide the bullets down to the ground. He added wings on the sides to reduce spatter and ricochets. We place the targets close fairly close to the back of the stop, so far we have not had any problem with escapes. The targets are hung by very heavy chain to help disperse the shock, and let you see when you hit.
With SCLER # 25 the 3inch and 6 inch plates get a workout.
TonyM
TonyM
FL, US of A!!!!! - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 13:15:16 (ZULU)
Brogers
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 13:16:12 (ZULU)
Off to the range for a hopefully better day than last weekend, Bolt out!
Bolt
NC, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 13:24:31 (ZULU)
Ten years ago I went to a range where three two-man sniper teams from Orange County were training. They looked very professional with fitted uniforms, mirrored shades, etc. Most looked like they spent a lot of time on their hair. None could climb a 15 foot embankment then hit a 4" balloon at 125 yards from bipod prone. All were cheerfully content and there were no apologies or displays of embarassment. The trainer (who is competent and ocassionally posts here) later told me that they were typical. "Bozo" is a fair characterization.
The Cops/Mil only competitions must get more motivated teams.
CDC'
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 14:14:20 (ZULU)
Conficscated your styrofoam heads??.
I reckon that wasn't kosher, or legal...your call.
Maybe you should have been shooting live chckens, and told em' you were practicing your religion...
That way, they would'a violated some more of your rights....LOL
( I forgot, your in N.Y., I am surprised they didn't arrest you for dummy abuse..hahahahahaha).
In my state, you cannot have silouttes that are black, against white backgound.
Gotta be blue, against white..NAACP complained, and made em' change it....wonder how the blue people feel??.LOL
I remember a few years back, G Gordon, was using targets, with Clinton's face, and Hillary's ( photo's) on them...caused NO small stir.........LOL
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 14:24:29 (ZULU)
A HALO into the AO with all your gear would be nice touch. That would be the real test of what gear holds up and what doesn't when it crashes and burns..
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 14:39:14 (ZULU)
What this world coming too. Now I gotta go trade my black tape for white cause I might be tempted to tape somebody's liberal mouth shut.
Boltster. Are you wanting a ballistic Path or just wanting comeups for 100 to 1000 which are the same by the way. The old PCB program does that for you and prints out a nice chart. It's on this site as a givaway! Or I'd be glad to send it too you if I had your vel. elevation, speed of projectile and velocity factor or bullet brand.
More signs the world has gone to hell. I'm in a big 24 hours chain store last night. Buying a little kiddie car for my Little Grandaughter. One of those plastic things that's been around for years but kids love em. I've got the basket with this little car in it and nothing else. War Woman is in the rest areaa and I'm waitin and waitin. The floor manager clerk tells me "There is a register thats open sir and they'll be glad to check you out." I say thanks and keep on my vigil but noticed she went to another guy and said something after a few minutes of watching me out of the corner of her eye. 15 min more and War Woman finally shows and has a basket full of stuff which she starts though with. She checks her stuff, the clerk comes around with his little gun and shoots the price off mine and adds it to her ticket. All's well till we start out the door. Here comes the mall ninja running to grab my basket motioning for help to two or three other ninja's. He's shouting "I'll have to see the ticket on that sir!" and looks like he's about ready to cuff me. I'm thinking which ninja I'm gonna dump this first guy on top of when he decides it's better to tackle the cart than me. About that time Quick draw war woman shoves the ticket in his face and says "better look at this sir before you get too exicited." The other Ninja's melt into the crowd and the good natured guy says " I just thought you looked to old for that car!" I told him raising my hands "You got me, my license don't cover operating a pedal car!" Life is tough at the mall these days.
Brogers
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 15:40:53 (ZULU)
I use the silhouette S1 targets out to 600yds. at my club range on occasion, especially when the steel is down for maintenance, but also for testing new loads with the M3 BDC. No one's said anything to my face about them, but I've noticed muted whispers and furtive glances in my direction coming from some fuddy-duddy benchresters. Ain't got the cojones to confront me directly? FUKUM!!! The rifle was not invented to punch small groups of holes in paper. What I do is MY business as long as it's legal and moral.
So they question (and confiscate) styrofoam heads in NY? What do you suppose that they're afraid of? I'd imagine that maintaining good relations with the local yokels has its merits, but on the other hand with friends like that who needs enemies?
Guys, this isn't macho talk. It just irks the hell out of me to see honest law-abiding citizens treated like potential criminals while murderers and rapists are allowed to walk the streets. I suppose that if you're a member of a minority group and maybe a famous athlete to boot nobody would dare to question ANY of your actions up to and including the sexual assault of a ninteen year old female Caucasian.
"LE only" competitions,
I can understand the military's need to restrict rifle competitions to military personnel only considering all of their rules & regs, red tape, and security issues, especially in todays climate. The LE is free to limit their matches to LE personnel, this is a free country, after all. Perhaps they want to interact only with kindred spirits, possibly because (unfortunately) many of them have drawn that blue line in the sand around themselves to the exclusion of all civilians. Maybe some of the competitors don't want to have their asses kicked in competition by people who don't wear the uniform and badge.
This is not an anti-LE diatribe. Many of the best shots and toughest competitors that I've ever seen are LE! I frequently shoot with two members of local LE, one a watch commander and the other a Detective Sgt. One is a close friend of over twenty years, the other my next door (if you can call it that) neighbor of twelve years. I was a PO for a couple of years before going to work as DOD Security, so no one can say that I have some anti-cop adgenda!
I think that the organizers of LE-only competitions should re-think their attitudes and open them to some QUALIFIED civilians. If a strict qualification format was observed no posers or f***ups would get to compete, and perhaps both groups would benefit from the interaction with the other. Otherwise, they (the organizers) should just admit that they don't want civilians around and that perhaps they're just plain uncomfortable in our presence!
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 16:11:24 (ZULU)
I'm still new to this site too,I use a 4by8 piece of plywood plus a sand pile backing for my 100 plus range in the country. Being in LE I'm able to get silouettes for little of nothing plus I like the Wal-Mart paper plates. I usually like to put one around center mass for accuracy. Question for you pros. I'm getting ready to go to a long range class in Whitewright. I'm shooting a h&k g3 sg1 problem I'm having is the scope rings.Maybe I need better quality rings but they get lose after about 7 shots. Its really a pain. Somebody help.
Jim
jim smith
savoy, texas, united states - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 16:15:22 (ZULU)
Take it easy,
Joe S.
Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 16:15:40 (ZULU)
I will have you know sir, that at 41 I have a full head of hair and spend an extraordinary amount of time making sure it looks good cause the chicks dig it. Besides, looking good is what really counts.
In fact, my grandfather refused chemo for the same reason (chicks dug him too). Oh he died for sure, but boy did he look good in that damn coffin. lol
Seriously, you hit it right on the head though brother.
There are "bozos" anywhere you go, (LE too) but they don't sign up at these events and they had better be able to do more than run and climb a little or they will be ralphing all over the range. They had also better be able to shoot and do it while making a descision.
Lots of fun, work related, professionally done. I sure like that kind of atmosphere.
Have a good weekend.
BKS
brian k. sain
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 16:39:08 (ZULU)
I understand what your saying about competition shots LE only. In this area le doesn't do hardly any shots.I will be attending civilian competitions. All fairness I learn more about guns and shooting from civilians then LE anyway.
Jim
jim smith
savoy, texas, united states - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 16:54:14 (ZULU)
Being a fat, dumb, old, outta shape cop sniper that's scared to death of gettin' whupped and can't shoot anyway ... I don't know shit about nothin'.
I personally would consider taking a bolt gun with Badgers. Even if you have to borrow one.
Being the guy with gun problems is never fun in a class. Usually makes for a miserable experience while everyone else is shooting.
imho
brian k. sain
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 18:08:25 (ZULU)
OK, So I'm thinkin we're gonna at least try it (after figuring out distances and such). What kind of steel should I look for for a target? Are there any companies that already make targets or do I have to have a "gong" fabricated? I'm sure there are other companies that make 'em but the only one I know of is Larue, and there's no way in hell I'll pay that much for a target. Any suggestions?
Later,
Rich
Rich S
MD, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 18:25:59 (ZULU)
Russ just wrote "After the Echo" about a shot he took a couple of years back and the nightmare that followed. Good read. Varro press.
Come and join us.
BKS
brian k. sain
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 18:29:05 (ZULU)
Thanks for the advice, I thought about bring my 7mag to the class but three hundred rounds in three days doesnt sound to appealing with it. Anyway the class is the end of July like the 25th 26 27. Thats why I'm trying to work my bugs out now instead of then. See ya,
Jim
jim smith
savoy, texas, united states - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 18:49:58 (ZULU)
Wow, what a city! Absolutely amazing. If you want it, they've got it. I'd venture to say there's no place like it on earth. Going thru security at LaGuardia...trying to be prepared, I put watch, belt keys, change, lighter, cigarettes etc. in a large carry-on bag to run thru the xray machine. What I didn't know was my wife had placed two new Zippo lighters (still in the boxes) and our portable battery powered alarm clock in it as well. It came out and the guy behing the monitor says "Who owns this Bag" as he displayed it for all to see. I acknowledged ownership as he informed me it had to go thru again. Upon it's second viewing the same fella says he's gonna send somebody to go thru it personally and would I mind waiting at a table behind me. A young lady with surgical gloves on appeared and proceeded to surgically empty the bag. When satisfied it was clean I asked her what prompted the search, expecting to hear the "alarm clock", oh contraire, twas the lighters. Seems if they had been the blow-torch propane type I'd have to leave 'em. My everyday zippo was in my Levi jacket front pocket which went thru the same machine/operator unchecked by anyone??? Wonder what it really was that got their attention?
It's mentally draining, to a half empty container anyway, to go around in condition orange/yellow for 4 days without so much as a pocketknife to defend your family. I'm damn glad to be home.
John
John
B'ton, IN, USA - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 19:33:00 (ZULU)
I am not for LE or Military only comps. I remember the Hathcock Memorial Comp. I saw so much attitude form some LE and Military gusy the first day. By the last I saw everyone mixing and the outcome mixed also. I hate this attitude of we are it and exclude everyone else.
One day I will get rich and buy 3000 acres and run comps that will get everyone going.
Glock. not you and you know who I was talking about. Its no one from here.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller
CA, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 20:29:36 (ZULU)
TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 21:13:08 (ZULU)
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 21:25:56 (ZULU)
What I'm trying to do is confirm comeups from only shooting at 100 yards. Starting from a 100 yard zero, how many inches above zero should I be hitting if I set the scope for the published comeup. I've got the comeups, I just need to be able to confirm them by cross referencing them to inches above zero for a given comeup at 100 yards.
Example: If I set a comeup for 600 yards, how many inches above zero should the boolit land?
On another subject.....
Why is it have you have to have one riffle that has to piss in your corn flakes every time you take it to the range? This friggin Colt Match Target Elite is still giving me a fit. I don't care what ammo I feed it, how hot or cold the barrel is, etc., it will not group. I've checked the scope for screwed up reticles, re-checked all the screw torques but I'm about ready to wrap it around a tree. Me thinks it's time to send it to Hollinger and let him say grace over it.
On a brighter note.....
I'm just tickled pink with this little Rock River National Match. I don't care what you feed it, it eats it and puts the boolits damn close to where you aim. I've been zeroing it off a rest and today that little sucker gave me a less than 3/4" group. Seeing as how I can't hardly see the target at 100 yards without glasses, I am impressed. Unfortunately, I still can't figure out this offhand shooting technique. Time to take a high power course I reckon.
Bolt
NC, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 21:46:58 (ZULU)
Sarge
Sniper Country Staff
MATCH COORDINATOR
Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 22:00:28 (ZULU)
Never seen a problem while running the ranges at Sniperweek or the New England deal. Everybody's working hard and having fun.
Competition's good, tough but friendly. Every now and then there's a heated alibi but it always works out with no problems ... or else. Some shootin' sumbitches there too. Lots of them have had to shoot people and are looking for an edge in case they have to do it again. Smart.
TONY Y: I am attending the TX State SWAT comp in Sept.
New England Summit the week after in Mass. (S&W Academy)
May be teaching in IL. in Oct. and on vacation w/ momma the same month.
I been to FLA. three times this year (SHOT SHOW, SNIPERWEEK and taught a WATERBORNE CLASS) plus Austin for the TX PO Memorial. Chunk in a couple of SWAT callouts and the damn telephone every night and momma starts putting the ole foot down. Just too much ... she hates what I do.
I would like to shoot the Paradise and Badlands gigs some day. Maybe you guys could teach me some good stuff that would make me better.
That's the name of the game anyway isn't it?
Maybe one day. Headed to Dallas.
WY6s
brian k. sain
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 22:35:05 (ZULU)
I'd like to attend a match that you could pick and choose from the events. You could weight the events by difficulty so that these young whipper snappers will have something to wear them out while the old farts lay back and drink a few RW&B's after we get tired. I don't ever see the need to have to sprint a hundred yards or run 2 miles again. That's what they make ATV's and SUV's for. Don't want to die tired! Just gimme ammo, beer, food, an umbrella and show me the target and I'll be happy :)
Bolt
NC, - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 22:51:19 (ZULU)
Other than the rare Master of Kung Pao, Stephen Seigall imitator I don't run in to them either. At first some guys are a little stand-offish. After they see you shoot a little they're friendly enough.
CDC'
Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 22:56:06 (ZULU)
Good luck collectin'!
LOL!!
Semper-Fi!
Spud
PS
Springfield Armory is sending me a NEW M1A in exchange for the one I got (NIB) on a trade! Can you spell poor QC!?
A happy old fart,
Spud
Dennis
merced, KA, usa - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 23:20:00 (ZULU)
Let's see if I understand what you're looking for. Please bear with me! Take a .308 175 SMK @2600MV shooting at 4800ft elev. If you are zeroed at 100yds. and crank the elevation turret up to give you the comeups for a six hundred yard target, but you shoot POA at that 100yd. target your bullet strike should be about 91 inches high, which should correspond to about a 14.5 MOA raise from 100yds to the 600yd. target. At least I think that's what you're after. Unless I'm hallucinating;-)
About your Colt Match Target Elite - is it the CAR3 Accurized Elite model with the floated Wilson S/S 24" match barrel, or some other Elite model? I know that they made different models called Elite! If yours is not the floated model that could be the root of your problems. Shooting with bipod, rest, bags, or tight sling will kill your groups with an unfloated AR. Think of constantly changing pressure on the barrel of your favorite floated bolt action stick and what that would do to your scores. Your RR NM rifle has a 'hidden' full float tube that is no doubt in part responsible for how well its shooting.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 23:22:04 (ZULU)
Just a thought.
Joe S.
Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 23:32:29 (ZULU)
How special! It's a beautiful day in your neighborhood.
CDC,
Funny, I've never ran across Mr. Kung Pao Steven Seagul. There's an ass for every seat!
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 00:03:29 (ZULU)
http://www.bdlltd.com/1500-Colt_Tactical_Elite.jpg
Yep, you're right on what I am attempting to do.
Bolt
NC, - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 01:06:40 (ZULU)
Just down from prepping some .35 Whelan Imp. cases. Getting my elk loads ready for the season. After shooting the .338 Lapua and 300 grain SMK's those darn .35 cal 250 grainers look SMALL! God help me.
Should get about 2550 FPS from them out of my 23" Kreiger tube. Closest thing I can get to a sledgehammer.
My London Bridge Ghillie arrived yesterday. Incredible quality and the cost was way below normal. Thanks to another former Marine that had gained a few pounds.
Not much else going on. Another range trip planned.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 02:12:10 (ZULU)
That Colt certainly has a floated barrel. What is the twist? What kind of loads have you been trying? Is it consistantly bad? As previuosly mentioned, the lighter match bullets rule out to 200yds when punching paper. In my Colt Accurized Elite CAR3 (1/9 twist) the most accurate bullets are the 52gr. SMKs. Try this load:
52gr. SMK, 25gr. H4895, W-W brass, Federal 205 primer, 2.25" OAL. You can safely substitute IMI Match or LC brass and WSR primers. I've shot a 5-shot 100yd. group of .113" backed up by .130" - witnessed at my club range! The old BR shooter that gave it to me said "if it won't shoot with this one it won't shoot at all". This was when I was struggling with my Colt, and it made a believer out of this shooter.
Keep in mind that the 69, 77, and 80 SMKs will outperform this load at 300yds. and more, but they're not intended to make tiny groups at BR distances. The 52SMK is! The heavier bullets above are designed to shoot flat and buck the wind and they do a great job of that.
If you need the numbers run I'll be glad to run them for you on Exbal. Give me the bullet specs, MV, altitude, ambient temp. and humidity and I'll have what you need.
Sir Wes,
If you were a chick you'd be labeled a size queen;-)) Could this be Freudian?
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 03:14:00 (ZULU)
Here's a print out hope it looks OK on the page.
Range Velocity Energy Flight Drop Maks Path Drift Click Click
time height up side
[yds] [ft/s] [ft.lbs] [s] [ins] [ins] [ins] [ins]
===============================================================================
100 2498 2327 0.117 2.6 0.0 0.0 0.6 -0.0 2.4
200 2350 2060 0.240 10.7 2.2 -3.9 2.4 7.9 4.7
300 2208 1819 0.372 25.2 6.1 -14.3 5.7 19.1 7.6
400 2071 1599 0.513 46.8 12.1 -31.8 10.5 31.8 10.5
500 1938 1401 0.661 76.2 20.6 -57.1 16.7 45.7 13.4
600 1811 1223 0.821 115.1 32.1 -91.8 25.0 61.2 16.6
700 1691 1067 0.994 165.2 47.4 -137.7 35.5 78.7 20.3
800 1577 928 1.178 227.3 66.9 -195.7 48.0 97.8 24.0
900 1469 805 1.374 302.7 91.1 -266.9 62.5 118.6 27.8
1000 1371 701 1.586 395.3 121.6 -355.4 79.8 142.2 31.9
Brogers
Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 03:22:13 (ZULU)
As you can see. The bullet is 11.4 high at 100 yards.
Do the same for all ranges.
Range Velocity Energy Flight Drop Maks Path Drift Click Click
time height up side
[yds] [ft/s] [ft.lbs] [s] [ins] [ins] [ins] [ins]
===============================================================================
100 2498 2327 0.117 2.6 0.0 11.4 0.6 -45.7 2.4
200 2350 2060 0.240 10.7 2.2 18.9 2.4 -37.8 4.7
300 2208 1819 0.372 25.2 6.1 19.9 5.7 -26.6 7.6
400 2071 1599 0.513 46.8 12.1 13.9 10.5 -13.9 10.5
500 1938 1401 0.661 76.2 20.6 -0.0 16.7 0.0 13.4
600 1811 1223 0.821 115.1 32.1 -23.3 25.0 15.5 16.6
700 1691 1067 0.994 165.2 47.4 -57.9 35.5 33.1 20.3
800 1577 928 1.178 227.3 66.9 -104.3 48.0 52.2 24.0
900 1469 805 1.374 302.7 91.1 -164.2 62.5 73.0 27.8
1000 1371 701 1.586 395.3 121.6 -241.3 79.8 96.5 31.9
And you are looking at the path line for all this, not the drop.
Brogerrs
Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 03:29:49 (ZULU)
I forgot something! The figures can be more exact if you give me the sight height above bore (distance from centerline of bore to centerline of scope tube). Not all rifle/scope/mounting systems measure 1.5" in this dimension like some programs ass-u-me they do.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 03:31:50 (ZULU)
Brogers
Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 03:34:10 (ZULU)
Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 05:05:18 (ZULU)
Sorry gang one of these days I'll learn how to do hyperlinks!
Sarge
Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 05:54:31 (ZULU)
Just got in from TP doing UKD work...and some golf balls for giggles.
Shot with Russ on one occasion. Heard the story 1st hand...........what an amazing bunch of horse shit you guys gotta put up with to do the job.
You got my salute.
The beer is at the Smokestack, and all the fat girls are in Mingus.
Bill can show you the way :)
Mike in Texas
Granbury, Texas, - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 06:24:35 (ZULU)
Took a trip to the Chech border to help a mate move some furnature yesterday, stopped at some autobahn services, walked into the mens room and there is a bloke stood there taking a piss and he is wearing a yellow skirt. Must have been on his way to Berlin for the love parade. Praise the lord for faggots, for every queer bloke there is a woman free for me JR and Mr insain. Yeah. its just that uphill gardeners shouldn't be allowed in public places.
Pete
Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 07:37:52 (ZULU)
I wasn't clear enough in the telling of my story. The "confiscating" deputy is a good friend and the TWO OF US destroyed a bunch of the foam heads togeather, using precission rifle fire. He met me on the same range two days latter, at my suggestion. I brought targets he brought lunch, cold drinks and all the .45 ball (reloaded) I wanted. I even showed him how to make his own range cards for his rifle. He had such a good time that he bought me dinner and kept my mug full for the evening. so you see I was not "wronged" by local LE at all. Also, I Pulled his little brother out of a half submerged car after a pickup truck driven by a drunk bounced his car over a guard rail and into a storm swollen creek. I was the lead swimmer in the "swift water" rescue effort so he feels he owes me. I like to shoot with him.
Brogers, Green watermelons with a .308? Isn't that a little light? what if they charge? .50 at least!!! I hav, It Is Fun
Attention all Celts (in best scotts brough you got)"Thar shutin at argh kin" We must band togeather and stop the printing of blue targets by culturaly insensitive louts. hows about red coats as targets? no wait, I'm some of that too. I'm going back to foam heads, I'm not that (most of the time;) ).
I just got half a dozen car doors out of the dumpster at work (left over set pieces).Lets see, Car doors w, glass + foam heads= deflection tests!!!!
Now all I need is range time :(
Critter
Web Crittenden
Upstate NY till I had to come back out of the woods., Ny, the best one - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 08:18:22 (ZULU)
Tony - If it's gonna be a HALO jump into the competition site, I'm gonna need some tips... I'm fine with jumping out of an airplane (done that), but pulling that handle thingy at the right time.... I haven't done that, and I'm already plenty short.
Sarge - Whe you are setting up the next match, I've got some ideas on how to make things more challneging without involving 5 miles runs... I will put them to print and ship them off in the next few weeks. The only issue will be how to keep them safe.
medicjim
Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 12:43:09 (ZULU)
Sorry, I must have misintrepreted your post.
Let's see - car doors w/glass + foam heads w/blond wigs + living in New York = Hillary practice. I just had to say it before she officially becomes a candidate. The penalties for this type of gallows humor get stiffer after that!
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 15:35:16 (ZULU)
That's exactly what I was looking for! This will give the ability to get theoretical comeups at 100 yard increments while only shooting at 100 yards. When I go to a match, I can confirm my 600 and 1000 yard zeros and compare them to the program. Can then interpolate to see if they are close. I'm going to get a copy of exbal and try it myself.
Alan,
I know that I'm not a ballistics genious but it doesn't make sense that a given bullet can do well at a long distance but not at a short distance. I will however give the lighter bullets a shot. Heck I may even try those mo...mo...mol... well you know what type of coating I'm trying to type. I wanted to try this gun at 600 yard F-class but hell, I could shoot a shotgun at 600 and get better patterns.
As an aside....
I have a heavy duty Sailrite sewing machine on the way as we speak. Gonna start building some gear and doing some repairs. Nothing that will tie me down but something different that cleaning reels for a change. If you guys have anything in mind let me know. Will take a while to learn this stuff but what the heck.
Bolt
NC, - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 16:28:33 (ZULU)
First 15 rds at 100 yds 3 one hole 5 shot groups all going .6" or less. Then out to 200 yds. Cam on the M3 tracked relatively close - in other words the group didn't look like I'd used a shotgun, and were centered at POI, 2, 5 shot groups both less than 1.6". BTW all measurements are extreme outside edge to outside edge. Now this is just a very short sample BUT seems to me that this load - Lapua brass, Fed GM210M primers, 175 SMK's and 43.5 grains of TAC is going to be a serious keeper if it continues to track and preform as it has so far! As soon as my steel gets here and I can get an empty range to shoot beyond 200 yds, I can go to 1000 if NOBODY else is on the range, I'll see if life is going to be good or not!
Stay tuned for further adventures!
Sarge
Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 17:35:21 (ZULU)
After perusing MGM's and porta target's sites, I've come up with the following possibilities.....
on MGM.....
Cowboy Action Auto Popper (round 8" circle)....auto spring-loaded reset. Comes ready to mount high legs on it for good ground clearance. $150.
Double "lolli" popper. 8" circles. Used at sniperquest. $260.
Flash rifle target. Flashes a bright orange "flag" when hit. $240.
"Precision rifle" target. IPSC shaped target with "swing out" head shot "T" and center mass square. $245.
on Porta-Target...
Non-reactive(just goes "clang", no action) High-Power silouhette. $250.
Non-reactive 8" plate $150
Rifle gong 8" $200.
Now, I'm also gonna possibly use it for some handgun stuff too, so I'm leaning towards the MGM Cowboy action dealie (it's also the cheapest). I'm assuming that for the rifle stuff the 8" is the preferred size (I don't imagine I'll be shooting at more than 500 yards)? What about the Non-reactive plates? What would you guys pick for price/versatility?
Thanks
Rich
Rich S
MD, - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 17:41:02 (ZULU)
Sarge
Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 17:45:29 (ZULU)
"CNN News> Watch your cash, small bill counterfeiting increases.
"He said a classic example turned up last weekend when a pizza delivery man accepted a fake C$20 bill that featured six naked men with their hands in the air under the caption: "How to get women to save money"."
John
B'ton, IN, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 18:53:33 (ZULU)
If you're getting into ARs and .223s you should have a copy of "The Competitive AR15 by Glen D. Zediker. If you don't have one, beg, borrow, or steal it. Most highly recommended. I believe that Sinister said that it's the best of its type.
Anyway, for a quick rundown on the light bullet - close range, heavy bullet long range rational check out p.180 subtitled 'Reduced Courses, Reduced Bullets'. All is explained!
The Exbal program is a bargain. You'll love it.
Guys,
Can anybody tell me where I can get an inletted (or semi) stock for a M700 SA BDL RH in the pattern of the old Varmint Special or even the regular BDL with no checkering, forend tip, pad, etc? Most of you can probably guess what I'm up to. BTW, I can supply the wood if necessary.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 20:24:01 (ZULU)
Didn't someone (Sarge...) mention a riffle raffle here a while back????? I seem to recall SCLE #1... RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, RIFFLE RAFFLE, well, you know what I mean...
Sharron
Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!! - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 21:06:09 (ZULU)
A 1 MOA change on your scope at 100 yards will move your point of impact by 1.047 inches.
For instance, if I were to take my rifle, with my ammo (which I've loaded to match the BDC on the 30-05 M3LR dial), set up at a 100 yard range, and go through the come-ups by 100 yard increments, this about what I'd get:
Yards MOA Inches-at-100-yards
100 0 0
200 2 2.1
300 5 5.2
400 7.5 7.9
500 11 11.5
600 15.5 16.2
700 20.5 21.5
800 25.5 26.7
900 31 32.5
1000 38 39.8
Michael A. Litscher
Brew City, WI, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 21:31:55 (ZULU)
On the M40 knock off stock...good luck.
You will definitely need it.
Someone on here, MAY know SOMEONE who has an original.
I forget the old stock making place( went belly up), several years ago.
You used to could send them an ORIGINAL , and they made copies...took a while, and was expensive.
To my knowledge, no other way to duplicate that stock exists.
Finding the Aluminum butt plate, should be easy(er)......LOL
Good Luck......
Let me know if you do not get anywhere, I know a guy with an original, he won't sell it..but, may be willing to find someone to make you a knock off.
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 22:09:28 (ZULU)
Is that the one titled something like "The Competitive AR-15, The Mouse that Roared"? If so I've heard it's good too. I want to pick that up along with the AMU video tapes from the CMP and the Jim Hill video. I figure that's about as good as I can get since I don't have a coach.
Rich
Rich S.
MD, - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 23:20:39 (ZULU)
I have that book and it is indeed a good book. Loaded with good information.
On to other things... Such as Politicial agendas... The idiot Director of this film (below) doesnt see anything wrong with this film and doesnt think it offends...
"DISNEY/MIRAMAX SET TO RELEASE FILM DEPICTING AMERICA MILITARY AS DRUG DEALERS, CRIMINALS"
http://www.drudgereport.com/bufsol.htm
Dean Miller
Buford, GA, USA - Sunday, July 13, 2003, at 23:45:54 (ZULU)
Alan, your commment about "if you were a chick you might be called a size queen". Hmmm, must be a Fruedian slip...or was that half slip?
Hell, when you're 5'4" and built like a fire plug I guess anything can apply!
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 00:10:01 (ZULU)
Chris Wallis
Azle, TX, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 03:14:35 (ZULU)
Chris, On joining the Marines...check with the local recruiter. Been a long time since I worked with those gents, but believe you may still be eligible.
Just back from working out. OUCH! This is what I get for getting out of shape, overweight, and all the attendant negatives that go with that. Probably won't ever run any sub 18 minute three milers again, but would like to get back to a good solid first class PFT. LONG way to go...
My work out buddy is 92 lbs of White German Shepherd. Shotzi was panting enough for both of us...made me look GOOD!
If the old "no pain, no gain" is true then I'm making darn good progress!
Will be shooting .338 and .308 this week. Will report back...
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 03:50:51 (ZULU)
Chris Wallis
Azle, TX, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 04:12:28 (ZULU)
To the best of my knowledge the cut off for enlistment is 35.
Rich
Rich S
MD, - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 04:20:12 (ZULU)
Chris Wallis
Azle, TX, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 04:32:14 (ZULU)
You might try giving one of these a try:
Boyd's Gunstock Industries, Inc. (http://www.boydboys.com/default.htm), 25376 403rd Ave., Mitchell, SD 57301, Phone: 605/996-5011, Fax: 605/996-9878, sales@boydboys.com
or
Fajen® Gunstocks (http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/fajen/), A Battenfeld Brand, 5885 W. Van Horn Tavern Rd., Columbia, MO 65203, Phone: 573-446-3857, Orders: 877-509-9160 (Remember, we don't sell directly to the consumer) Fax: 573-446-6606, Email: sales@battenfeldtechnologies.com
or
Richard's Microfit Gunstocks, Inc. (http://www.rifle-stocks.com/), P.O. Box 1066, 8331 North San Fernando Rd., Sun Valley, CA 91352, Tel:(818)767-6097, FAX:(818)771-1242, Email: sales@rifle-stocks.com
or
Great American Gunstock Company (http://www.gunstocks.com/), 3420 Industrial Drive, Yuba City, CA 95993, Gunstock Hotline 1-800-784-GUNS (4867), regular business line (530)671-4570, E-mail - gunstox@syix.com.
Hopefully one of these guys should be able to help or point you in the right direction.
Later,
Byron
CA, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 05:50:39 (ZULU)
I'm no expert, but I thought there was a lot of excellent advice in that book. I would recommend it.
rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 08:01:38 (ZULU)
Disregard....found it.
John
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 11:51:29 (ZULU)
LeMay OUT
LeMay
Monday, July 14, 2003, at 14:15:39 (ZULU)
Don Rutledge
Hemet, CA, U.S.A. - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 14:43:09 (ZULU)
s and worked until groups got so small you had to use the second method. Normally I use the first :). In other words it's the distance across the centers of the two farthest holes. Not the distance of the center of the bullseye to the outside holes as some have surmised.
Maybe that's what it should be... but groups aren't measured by bullseye hits. Success is measured by bullseye hits but groups are another game.
The Lapua is emerging as one of the best Sniper rifles in the world. You must have a good one.
Brogers
Monday, July 14, 2003, at 15:14:37 (ZULU)
I believe that group sizes are usually referenced in either one of three ways.
The benchrest crowd (most accurate) is looking for the smallest possible group and will measuring the largest outside dimension of the hole (group) with calipers and then subtract one bullet diameter from this measurement. This may be indicated as being .500" - CTC or Center To Center.
The second method used by say hunters or general public is simply to measure the largest dimension of the group (without subtracting the bullet diameter) and referencing the group as .75" and most of the time will make no reference as to Outside edge to Outside edge. Or they simply reference they were able to keep X number of shots inside a X" circle. You might think that the first example was a better group but if it was shot with a .308 for example and you subtract that from the .500" you end up with .442" - CTC.
The third method as generally used on this site and others like it (tactical shooters) is simply reference the group size in MOA because it is easier to understand at any distance. Now 1 MOA at 100 yards is usually rounded to 1" but it really is 1.047" at 100 yard. The difference is so small that at 1000 yards 10 inches is commonly used as 1 MOA instead of the actual 10.47 inches. Groups or guns are talked about in whole or fractions of MOA. What I assume from my reading is that these groups are measured CTC so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Later,
Byron
CA, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 15:34:11 (ZULU)
You have mail. It's Christmas in July.
Santa
John
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 15:53:10 (ZULU)
:-) :-) :-)
Sarge
Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 17:20:49 (ZULU)
Sain, if you get up to IL give me a call. S/F...Ken M
Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 17:46:31 (ZULU)
Finally off for a few days from work. Found me a quick release for the H&K so will be at my little woodland range to rezero. Hope you guys have a good week. Oh yeah also found some different ammo for the 7 mag. its pmc 140 gr. hp we will see how well it works. What would be the best ammo to use for this gun? Since you guys are the experts. I really appreciate your input. Thanks
Jim
jim
Savoy, Texas, U.S. - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 18:53:44 (ZULU)
James Paschelke
Up North, MN, U.S.A - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 20:08:06 (ZULU)
Brogers
Monday, July 14, 2003, at 20:21:52 (ZULU)
Congratulations!!! LOP for 8 lbs is 8 inches. 1 lb/in till they reach the trigger. :))
John
John
B'ton, IN, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 22:01:20 (ZULU)
Brogers
Monday, July 14, 2003, at 22:25:22 (ZULU)
The Pala Indian Reservation. From San Diego take I15 North (from your local I15 South) to Highway 76. Go east on Highway 76 five and a half miles to Pala Mission Road. Turn left onto Pala Mission Road. Go eight tenths of a mile, turn left on the dirt road just before the dip in the road. The range is three quarters of a mile down the road. This is the furthest one from San Diego proper, it’s still in San Diego County, but only barely. It’ll take a good hour to get out there from San Diego. There are benches available and it has a covered area (at least it did the last time I was there).
Sarge-Congratis on the rugratis.
Take care all,
Joe S.
Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 22:43:38 (ZULU)
Thanks. Great American Gunstocks could be promising. Website having problems at the moment . We'll see once it's fixed, at least its a step in the right direction! The others are a no-go, tried before.
Shoes,
It didn't take you long to figure me out;-)) If wores comes to worse there's a local stockmaker who uses a guy that has a duplicator machine on some of his less-than-custom work. I already have a Varmint Special that I can borrow the stock from for him to copy. I'll let you know about my progress (if any). BTW, I have a 725 that I can borrow the aluminum butt plate from and a good friend who owns a machine shop who will use it as a template for a custom made M40 piece for me.
It's been 104-105 degrees here for the last week! I'm not stayin' at the range past 10AM at the latest. Gonna try the .337 bushing and 42-43gr. Varget with the rest of Federal brass as soon as I get a chance. We'll see. It'll be interesting to find out the truth. I've already run a batch of the original load but with Winchester brass, so far no problems but only twenty rounds tried so far.
Sarge,
Congratulations and best wishes to the parents and baby.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Monday, July 14, 2003, at 23:29:52 (ZULU)
Congrats! Very excited for you and your family.
So, what caliber are you getting him for Christmas?
This does mean we can call you Grandpa, right???
God Bless,
David
David Hornsby
Bedford, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 01:18:33 (ZULU)
Thought I'd start him off with a .22 Short! Next year we'll talk about .30 caliber!
Sarge
Sarge
Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 01:49:26 (ZULU)
Don Rutledge
Hemet, CA, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 02:22:45 (ZULU)
Sarge...congrats on being a grandpa. I've been at it about four years. It has it's moments. I know I'm gonna like'm even more when I can take'm to the woods with me...:-)
Alan, there are any number of stock duplicators out there. Most are pretty good. Depends on what you want. Most can duplicate what you want if you send them your old stocks. Turn around can be several months to ???
I actually know where there is an almost new duplicating machine for sale with hardware. Have considered it, but not quite yet. I do all my stocks from the block or have them 90% inletted by one of the custom duplicators.
A word of warning. If your going to have a custom stock done pick a darn good blank. Doesn't have to be fancy, but good grain pattern and dense. I prefer English Walnut, myself. With sharp tooling it works just like butter and a hot knife.
I believe Preslick, in Colorado, did my last stock. I'll see if I can did up some names and addresses for you.
It's my Friday. Spend tomorrow with wife...movie and dinner. Wednesday is "my day". Headed for the range.
Semper Fi,
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 03:30:21 (ZULU)
Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 03:36:56 (ZULU)
Get with me off-line, I might be able to help. Still got some homey's over there. They work the civillian side though.
Rich
Rich Johnson
Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 03:46:45 (ZULU)
Thanks, I could use names and contact info. Preslick? The name sounds familiar, possibly in Gunnison? Not very far from here!
I have a very nice Bastogne blank that I got from Don Allen about twentyfive+ years ago, when he was still flying commercially. Maybe too good for this project, but I'd like to make up a rifle out of it and get to actually use it while I still can.
I'm trying to build a clone of the original type of USMC M40. There's just something about them that I really like. I've already accumulated an early M700 SA and a mint Redfield 3x-9x Accutrac 2nd generation scope that still has a working rangefinder scale! Also have a set of 1st generation rings and a 2nd gen. base. You know what they say about idle hands and idle minds;-)
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 04:52:46 (ZULU)
Felt good to be out in woods again. Man its good to be alive!
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 05:34:41 (ZULU)
Gooch or somebody might know better, but to the best of my knowledge, there were 2 possible M40 stocks, both plain walnut with no checkering. One was pretty much a varmint stock, with standard forearm. The other supposedly had a beavertail type forearm similar to what you see on the current VLS. Only stock I've ever seen was the first type.
WR Moore
Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 09:22:58 (ZULU)
Can anyone help me I coming to the USA to do some CQB training. I’m going to DARC in Arkansas near Little Rock and was after some recommendations for some reasonably priced local accommodation.
Dry
UK - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 12:25:36 (ZULU)
Brogers I to think the 338 Lapua is an up and comeing sniper rifle of the 21 centery. With the range of 1600 m to 2000m in the hands of a well trained marksman. It has great nock down power at a 1000m. The one I had built was built my a retired armorier for Quantico. Its an M40A4 on a Rem 700 action 25 1/4 inch barrel 1/10 twist and mark 4 16x on top. And its a tack driver. I've ben sparying suger water on targets at a 100yds and shooting the blackflies as they land.
LeMay OUT
LeMay
MI, USA - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 16:35:11 (ZULU)
For those of you that did not get the last weather site that i posted it is The NRL Monterey Tropical Cyclone Page:
http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc_pages/tc_home.html
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 18:28:50 (ZULU)
P.S.have you tried the hyper-link yet??
Scott S
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 18:45:19 (ZULU)
I'm into the 8th month of my first at age 37... sleep is a thing of the past which I remember fondly.
Sarge, congrats!
Brain Sain - hope you have your water wings on. Be safe brother.
medicjim
Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 19:12:51 (ZULU)
Just found out sat. that #4 grandkid is on the way.
Little shits just keep sproutin' up...
My little 8 yr old Katy has gall stones of all damned things. For those of you who know of her history, no big surprise! ANOTHER surgery for her on the 23rd. Most adults don't have the balls that little turd has.
Glad to hear you're doin' better, Mike.
Latest word from Springfield Armory is I just may be gettin' my 1911A1 Ultra-Compact AND the m1a back THIS week from warranty repair.
Will report!
Spud,
Out
Dennis
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, usa - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 22:03:57 (ZULU)
I appreciate the heads up. I've had Numrich bookmarked for a long time but didn't even think about it until I saw your post. One of the stocks sounds like what I want, so I ordered it this AM, if no go I can always return it!
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 22:11:37 (ZULU)
Gooch
Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 23:22:45 (ZULU)
Now for a trigger question. I shot some guy's 300 WM that had about a 2 lb trigger pull. Very nice. Mine must be about a 20 lb pull. Obviously his was way easier to shoot. Do most of you guys get trigger jobs or replace the trigger? What is a good trigger to get and what weight are you guys running? The guy with the 300 recommended a Shilen for the money.
Thanks.
Corbett
Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, Ne, USA - Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 03:15:03 (ZULU)
Your e mail is bouncing.......
Hit me with one I can E mail you at..
Thanks
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 03:42:20 (ZULU)
CDC'
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 04:23:46 (ZULU)
Brogers
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 05:06:50 (ZULU)
You have mail. Safe, N/A
Corbett,
CDC gave you good advice. Follow 'lito's instructions to the letter, go slowly, and you'll save a lot of bucks! I strongly recommend a trigger pull gauge when making the adjustments. This stuff is too serious to leave up to guesswork. I use the RCBS scale - the one with the recording pointer. Not expensive. Brownells has them.
A properly done adjustment on a M700 trigger will carry you down to about 2 lbs. weight of pull with no creep or overtravel and do it with utmost safety. The nice thing is that you really won't get any real improvement in this range with a $200 replacement part. The Remington trigger has been called the best of the standard triggers.
For a shooter with your experience you should stay at about a 3 lb. pull. This is no putdown on you, nor is it any great handicap. Remember that the Army and Marine sniper rifles are set at this weight and they don't seem to suffer for it. The trigger pull seems to feel lighter as your stress levels build. Beware of too little of a good thing!
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 05:21:27 (ZULU)
Once upon a time, when we were getting $50.00 for a dead coyote (just to set the time) unskinned a hunter buddy decided he needed to adjust his 700 trigger. He played with the overtravel, setting it too tight and messed with the sear till you could blow on it and set it off. Quite proud of it he was. He was unloading it from his vehicle (loaded) when he slipped the safety off to unload(back there when you couldn't open the bolt unless the safety was off) and the rifle went off shooting a hole in the door. Astonished at what had happened it went over to another hunters house and proceeded to show him what the rascally rifle had done to his door. The other guy said, "How did that happen by just taking the safety off?" Our hero loaded his rifle to show him what happened and shot another round through the door. Nice 1" group.
Moral;
don't "fXXX" with it unless you test it under all conditions where it's safe test it by putting safety on, pulling the trigger, then put safety off and back on. See for sure even by striking the action with a rubber hammer and slamming the bolt. Goes expecially for SAVAGE and WINCHESTER ACTIONS that are more succeptable to this than others. I once got a .375 mag back from the Gunsmith who worked on a different bolt problem and the rifle would fire if you pulled the trigger during half cock and then took the safety off. I found that out after carrying it around in the mountains with snow on the ground for 3 days. Luckily there was no round in the chamber when I discovered the problem. The smith wouldn't admit there was a problem and I had to fix it myself.
*I should explain that he told me that a Winchester wasn't designed well enough to depend on the safety and needed to be carried with the bolt lifted to prevent these kind of disasters. That works of course but it's a bit off base.
Brogers
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 05:23:37 (ZULU)
Thanks, sir. I will put this care package in the hands of E-1 through E4 3d ID soldiers in the desert camps. The same kids who have been told three times they were going home, and three times that no, they aren't. They could use a little boost right about now. DoD had the right intentions; state pulled the strings here. Foggy Bottom won't even acknowledge their role--just whine and run...but we may need these dandy-diplomats to fix some of the marraiges that are under strain over this crap. Oh, hell---they're fuckwads. Screw em.
Sorry bout that, I'm pretty pissed at the treatment some of our boys are getting....
On the lighter side---your care drop is RIGHT ON TIME!!!! Morale soars with home front support--especially when "we" tell them yesterday they can go; and today that they must stay.
Grrrrrrrrrr.
Joe
Joe Mahon
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 12:26:38 (ZULU)
For you pro's, you know what your doing.....
For the uninitiated, ( like Mr. Bill's acquaintance).
There is another test to perform, that always is good to perform.
I call it the drop test..after you have adjusted the trigger..set to go..drop the rifle cocked/unloaded(of course), onto a carpeted floor, from about 12"'s.....several times, even to the point of bouncing it a bit.
If it's set to light, it will trip the sear..start over.
I PERSONally do not trust a standard Rem trigger below 3-1/2#'s.
They seem to have a penchant, for "wearing" in..meaning what WAS safe, suddenly turns south..due to use...wear on the sear surfaces.
ALAN, got mail, thanks again.........((:
Joe M, Bummer ........):
Hope the guy's and you get to come home soon.....real soon.
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 13:20:03 (ZULU)
Brogers
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 13:38:05 (ZULU)
I was getting pounded by rain pretty good before I finisned my string, thus providing me with an ideal excuse for my pour performance (how's dat for a pun?).
BTW, JC & I were pushing 175 SMK's with TAC. I didn't think anything would ever sway me from Varget, but I wuz wrooong.
Chris, we'll be baack!
Don Black
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 14:02:47 (ZULU)
You ol' fart, it wasn't raining *that* hard.
BTW, I found a desert camo boonie hat in the car when I was unloading. Know anybody that might wanna buy it? I'll let it go for cheap.
Chris,
Don is correct. We'll be back. Shooting at 1k was a blast (no pun intended), but it was over too soon. You know, sorta like the first time you get laid.
jc
jcopeland
Cordova, TN, USA - Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 16:09:55 (ZULU)
Don't forget one Pole! We named at least one great county in Tennessee and one crappy road in New Jersey for him:-)
The Foggy Bottom gang has been dominated by the ivy league light-in-the-loafers faction since the 1950s. That's a fact! Everybody who's anybody in DC knows it but are afraid to admit it to the public, and the Press is too PC to ever get involved, and scared of Barney (not the purple one) and his boys. These are kids from the rich and priveledged class, educated at the best schools and indoctrinated as globalists. They have a strict one-world agenda and are more loyal to their sexual identity than to their Country. This viewpoint has been derided by the left-wing press as "fascist rhetoric". Oh yeah? Try living in our Nations Capitol for about a dozen years while in the military and as a civilian government employee traveling in the circles closest to power!
Fire bases? God forbid! But what do you do with a culture that has actively spread its message of hate, inequality, deception, ignorance, and intolerance since (about) 700 AD? We will never win the majority of them over to our ideals because their Kings, Mullahs, and Terrorist leaders have a strongly vested interest in maintaining the old status quo. AND WE ARE INFIDELS!!! One answer - and I'm not saying that it's necessarily the right one - is to completely level every town, village, or neighborhood that harbors terrorists or that allows itself to be used as a fire position. Execute - on the spot - anyone caught with weapons, ammunition, subversive materials, wearing veils or other headgear to hide behind, or caught providing any form of aid or comfort to our enemies. Permanantly seal all borders, execute all who attempt to cross them. Employ Cruise Missles to 'visit' neighboring states (like Syria) when they permit terrorists to use their territory to either hide from us or launch their attacks on us. Seize all the oilfields and turn them into autonomous protectorates and use some of the profits to provide food and medicine for the rest of the country. AND KEEP THE F***IN' UN OUT!! If Sadaam could rule for decades of (internal) peace using these methods perhaps we can too!
CDC,
Your suggestions make good sense, but not necessarily in the minds of many Middle-Eastern Muslims. Their mind-set is not necessarily the same as ours, and it's a grave mistake to assume that it is! The problem could be solved rather quickly if it was. We divorce our unwanted mates, they murder theirs. Just one over-simplified example of fundamental differences that have held on over a millinea.
The anti-war left and the guerillas? That's real familiar! Our true enemies are as much some of our own as they are theirs. This unholy alliance was a primary factor in the loss of the war in SEA. Win the hearts and minds of the populace? I'd like to see success along those lines but fear that only a Pollyanna can believe that will happen.
Shoes,
Placed an order for a stock and other pertinent goodies for the M40 project. I'll provide a SITREP as soon as one develops.
Edited.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 17:37:27 (ZULU)
Imagine if the US had pulled out quickly, sent our troops home for a rest and setup for the next threat... we would be prepared, would have saved lives and money and the rest of the terr supporting nations would be scared shitless right about now.....
The only folks that would not be better off would be the liberated Iraqis....they would have no-one to lean on except themselves. Come to think of it... that is exactly the cure I prescribe for spoiled rich problem children in the US...Maybe the Iraqis would benefit from control of their own destiny..they certainly have the resources to succeed... only Darwin knows if they would.
medicjim
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 17:42:42 (ZULU)
CDC'
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 17:52:49 (ZULU)
Sorry CDC, I missed your post that you deleted.
Brogers
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 19:01:43 (ZULU)
We've already gobe round and round on the Iraq and other enemies of America thing. Those of us who favor the historically proven but totally un-PC approach have made our cases and we'll just see how it plays out. You have to realize that all the information we're getting has been been pre-filtered by media asshats to suit their need to promote a Liberal outlook. It's the God damned fifth column and always has been. Just ignore those twits and if you get the chance, beat them down.
You can never be too ruthless or too relentless. THAT has never been an American problem. Even if we had George Patton as Chairman of the JCS, Curtis Lemay as SecDef and Theodore Roosevelt as Pres, we'd still be too soft and too prone to compassion too early. It's just our nature as Americans. It has it's advantages most times, just not overseas.
Who'd be up for a sniper match in late September like I was gonna setup this past spring, pre-war? I have a line on a couple of ranges in the Midwest and I'm gonna start feeling out numbers. Drop an E-mail. S/F...Ken M
Ken M
IL, USA - Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 19:42:20 (ZULU)
Thanks for your help in advance.
LT Chip.
LTChip
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 20:14:04 (ZULU)
Loctite Corp. manufacturers a two-part epoxy, good stuff. If you can't find it, Devcon and Brownells Steel-Bed are fine products and will work well for your purpose. I've used all three, although I must admit that I've never had to epoxy bed a scope base to a reciever! I've checked for surface mating with Prussian Blue and must have been lucky. For release agent I use Brownells liquid and also their spray type. I've used Pam and Johnsons paste wax in a pinch. A friend got in a bind and had to use liquid Turtle Wax. It worked for him!
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 21:15:39 (ZULU)
Thanks much. I got thrown off by the "LOCTITE" that we all know and love. Forgot that it is a brandname for a whole line of products.
As to your other comment about not bedding the thing in the first place....well that was my plan until I read "Glockamole's" post saying that these things must be bedded.
Eyeballing the fit - it looks like there is a good mate between my SPR receiver and the 1 piece base. You mentioned using some Prussian Blue dye to measure the surface mating. Can you expand on that technique? I'd rather have it without the bedding. What % of surface mating would be acceptable in your mind?
Thanks,
LT
LT Chip
Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 23:44:22 (ZULU)
The Farrell bases's are an anomaly in the slanted base industry.
They MUST be bedded, or you will shear the mounting screws that holds the base on.
The Farrell instructions state to BED the base.
Problem/design, of the Farrell in MHO, is that they are too heavy, and have an open centerline.
Only the SIDES of the base touch the reciever, and that leaves a void, running the entire length of the base.
This, in turn, allows the base screws to have "free space" between the base, and the reciever..totally unlike a Badger, or a MK4.
Add this, to the fact they weigh 2-3 times more than a Badger..and you get the drift.
Understand, they work ok, IF you mount them correctly.
For $47.00, what do you expect....LOL
If I WERE Farrell, I would remove about 50% of the weight on this base, and remove the void.
He would make a killing @ $47.00.
Best
Two Shoes
Glockamolie
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 00:04:49 (ZULU)
I just got off the phone with a premium smith that lots of these guys have done business with, me included. The reason for my call was because this talk of bedding Farrell mounts got me to wondering about them. They're going to be on my latest rig, when it's done, at his suggestion.
He's got the first tactical base that Farrell came out with, as in #1, has had Ken do special 80MOA tapers for him, and stocks these things in shop.
His statement was that no bedding was required, if the receiver was good and in line. If the receiver isn't, then of course something has to be fixed, and the fix includes bedding.
The only reasons I had for choosing these was because they're supposed to be built really solid but sit very low, and because the smith recommends them so highly.
Jaeger
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 01:55:42 (ZULU)
Yes, Farrell does say they are to be bedded. I used Acra-Glass gel which comes with the release. Worked well enough.
They are very stout. Much denser than the Badger on a friends rifle. Follow the instructions and you won't go wrong. Be sure to put some release on the screws or you won't get them out when the compound sets.
ALL;
Anyone going to the gunshow in Birmingham,AL this weekend?
LATER Y'ALL
Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL, Heart of Dixie, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 01:59:13 (ZULU)
Just read the review of Jarhead. Any of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children that confirm that this f@$# was a Marine? He sure doesn't measure up to any Marines I know. Definitely needs some public exposure if he's full of shit.
Steve
Steve Burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 03:07:45 (ZULU)
Alan, your M40 project stocking...
My gunsmith friend suggests you give Boyds a call. He indicated that their work and pricing is very good. You can find their web-site at:
www.boydsgunstocks.com.
For his custom work he uses Thompson Custom Guns. That's if you have an original stock to use as a pattern. They are recommended HIGHLY. Not cheap but fine work. Ken does list the Rem 700 as one of his patterns available. Whether that is the one you want, I don't know.
The are in Soda Springs, Idaho. Phone is:208-547-0383 or e-mail gunny@cyberhighway.net
You didn't indicate whether or not you have an original stock or not.
You may want to try Numrich Arms Corp or Remington, itself to pick up an "original" stock. Possible new, or a used one to use as a pattern.
Hope this helps...
Sir Wes
Wes Howe
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 03:16:44 (ZULU)
Your smith needs to READ the instructions that come WITH a Farrel base.
I am simply echoing problems I have read about, and the discussions that followed.
Bottom line, the bases are to be bedded,per Ken Farrell.
Either way, they are hell bent for stout, but they weigh too much, and could be a suoer set up, EXcept for that fact, and the bedding/clearance issue.
The weight, and the clearance between the base, and reciever is axing for trouble.( recoil on a .308 has snapped/bent the screws, and I can only imagine a .300WM or larger.
There was said to be a bad batch of mounting screws,since replaced.
But, if the manufacturer says BED them, then bed them.
Best of luck...I think I would ask my smith some more questions, and maybe even call Sinclair, and ask them to read him the directions for mounting a Farrell base..LOL
I ain't got a dog in this hunt..just trying to save some folks some uneccessary grief.........
Best of luck to you brother..........((:
Two Shoes
Two Shoes
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 03:57:23 (ZULU)
Thanks for all the info on the Rem trigger. I value you guys' opinions a lot. If any of you ever get to Omaha, let me know and we can go hit the range or the bbque place.
Corbett
Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, Ne, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 04:02:10 (ZULU)
Had the chance to compare Leupold and S/B firsthand. No comparison on glass quality. Bill's 60X Loopy spotting scope looked almost milky compared to the S/B PM on his Lapua. Really great glass. Knew it beforehand but had not seen 'em side by side before. Whewww. Nice clear stuff that S/B. Could see sharp edges on a Larue target at 1000 with the PM in bad mirage. No way even close with the Loops.
A Roster lurker showed up (I think he came just to see if I was bullshitting or not). Nice fella.
Damn hot but we had fun. The .338 is a beast. Big ole cartridge.
Bill and his wife are nice people.
Mike in Granbury, Bill said some nice stuff about ya. Wish you could have come.
Yes, Alan, it was a damn beautiful day in my 'hood. lol
WY6s men.
brian k. sain
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 04:17:17 (ZULU)
So, Jaeger your smith probably did read the instructions and is giving you the straight poop.
Glockamole- where did you read your info about the problems of not bedding it and the weak screws I couldn't find anything like that.
Anyway, I went ahead and did it cause I figured that the groove in the base was designed for it and I had nothing better to do tonight.
Now I can say that I have bedded a base (if all goes as planned) - so I got that going for me - which is nice.
Anyway, I appreciate all of your input. Thanks for helping out a permanent newbie.
LT
LT Chip
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 04:48:38 (ZULU)
Yessir, if I'd had another day's notice I would have made it.
My partner and I are going out Friday since it's only supposed to be 101 up here. He's waffling on shooting the SPSC with me in Oct.
I plan on making him quit tomorrow so I can find a dedicated shooter................'bout 3 hours around noontime should do it nicely.
My God I cannot abide a quitter.
Mike in Texas
Granbury, Texas, - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 04:51:40 (ZULU)
I never said not to bed your scope base, I only mentioned that I've never epoxy bedded a scope base myself. Perhaps I should've mentioned that I've never owned or installed a Farrell either!
As far as checking for contact with Prussian Blue, first of all it's not a dye, it's a paste. It's made to check contact patterns by transfer. Dyes (like Dykem) are intended for scribing a layout onto a piece of stock (not gunstock!). Can't be too specific in this type of work:-) Comes in a tube (from Permatex). From what Shoes describes the Farrell base would not be a likely candidate for this operation because its lack of full bottom surface is not conducive to this type of operation.
The method that I use with bases that have a full reciever contour goes like this -
1) Coat the cleaned and deburred mounting surface of the reciever with a very thin but even coat of Prussian Blue. Only experience can give you the feel for this.
2) Remove the coating (bluing, black oxide, Parkerizing, etc.) from the bottom (reciever) surface of the scope rail (mount). Get it down to bare metal. A chemical method is preferred as it doesn't remove material in the process of removing the coloring from the rail.
3) Very slowly and carefully lower the rail onto the reciever making absolutely sure not to move it around so you don't smear your paste and obscure its pattern. Cut the heads off a couple of long screws of the proper size to use as pilots in the mounting holes if necessary.
4) Tighten (torque) the mounting screws to rail mfg's specs. A small drop of thin oil on the threads helps. Reinstall the pilot screws and remove the remaining mounting screws, then lift the rail straight up and off the reciever. Make very sure not to touch the underside of the rail!
5) The blue paste will transfer from the mounting surface of the reciever to that of the rail and provide you with an accurate picture of the contact between the two, if performed properly. Ideally, I'd like to see 100% contact, but less than 70% is certainly unacceptable.
6) Correction can be accomplished by hand-lapping, much as it is with scope rings, but that is an art into itself and cannot be done with all types of rails. When the operation is complete a cold blue solution can be used to protect the bare surfaces from corrosion. Have fun;-)
bro' Shoes,
I've never messed with a Farrell! You mean it's heavier than a D D Ross or an IBA (Chandler)? Them I got!!
Sir Wes,
I sure appreciate your help with my M40 project. Actually, I own an early Remington M700 Varmint Special (it's a .243) that I can 'borrow' the stock from to send to a duplicator if it becomes necessary.
I was ready to do just that when WR Moore posted a suggestion to try Numrich, and he was right! I ordered a stock that sounds like it will be just what I need yesterday and got shipping notice and tracking number today. My fingers are crossed. Actually, they have several parts that might fit into this project, but I won't know for sure until I see them. I'll keep you guys that might be interested advised of how it's coming along.
ALAN
Palisade, CO, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 05:24:09 (ZULU)
LT, see if you can get here......click on my name
Shoes
Two Shoes
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 05:24:56 (ZULU)
Please re-think the Ferrel base thing. If you are making the decision just to save $45 and go that route instead of the Badger I will give you a Badger or a Leupold Mark 4 Base. I am sure that Ken is a nice guy, but why re-invent the wheel? There is no magical technology with bases. Just good solid design and tight tolerances with an awareness of the new receiver sizes.
Years ago Undude introduced me to Badger bases and rings, I have never gone back. They always work, they don't come loose, and they are solid as hell and don't require any funky installation.
Not that I have an opinion at all....
Michael
CA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 09:21:56 (ZULU)
We had our 3 year launch aniversary yesterday here at work and i got absolutely plastered drunk, suffering with a hangover today. Pete
Peter Lincoln
UKSC G - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 11:09:04 (ZULU)
Pete
Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 11:19:25 (ZULU)
Our troops are shrugging off the changes, and driving on. Great morale overall. I'm pissed because a very senior officer made a "promise"--in those words--and failed to carry it out. Being old school, that means you just screw someone else when the situation changes. That they didn't should be cause for speculation---among ourselves in a secure place. Idle units that could've backfilled 3ID--units who packed hoping to get deploy orders and are postured to jump---are not being sent....
I learned a long time back to only promise that which I controlled.
I miss my range. My safe, my bench...and my wife cooking upstairs, and kids fetching tools from the pegboard. But, as long as we are here (or anywhere)--there is no place on earth I'd rather be. And so many fine youngsters have that same deep feeling.
I am today proud to be an American, a soldier, and a father. These gen-x youth standing up to be counted sure brings out perspective! As long as we have kids like this, no matter how few--there is hope for our great nation.
Now if the Dems would just shut the hell up with their talk that cheapens this great endeavor--I'd be a happy camper. That is, BTW, a lousy damn thing for those young kids to hear. They think "what the hell? We could die for nuthin...?" I hope this strategy bites them on their big, fat...errrr. Way too political---but we get CNN here, so you all know the effect these "interviews" with Daschle and such can have.
Someone other than me needs to point that out to the press. I need to fix what is in my lane over here.
Joe M.
Joe Mahon
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 11:23:18 (ZULU)
I'm proud of all you guys over there. Keep up the good work and hopefully you will all get home soon. Drop me a note with your address and what your guys would like to have and I'll get a care package in the mail.
Doc
Doc Holloway
The steamy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 13:12:42 (ZULU)
Same here, if you will post an address or hit me offline I would be honored to send you fine gentlemen some needed goodies.
Stay safe,
Marc
drmarc@se-tel.com
drmarc
HillBilly, Kentucky, USA - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 15:09:20 (ZULU)
All: This is guerilla war and we're pursuing an anti-guerilla strategy: Deny sanctuary, deny external source of supply, don't alienate the indigs by over-reacting, develop intelligence sources and take a bigger fight to the guerrs than they want. If we're patient and meaner than cat shit, we'll win. If we get bored and go home, bin Laden and Sadaam's views of our staying power are vindicated and 9-11 is just the first of many installments. Then China takes Taiwan, NK pressures SK, Japan goes nuclear, WMDs for everybody, and who knows what else.
CDC'
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 16:23:13 (ZULU)
CDC you print a grim but I fear 'accurate' picture.
Brogers
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 17:24:16 (ZULU)
Damned proud of you young lads and lassies...
Semper-FI!
Spud
Dennis
merced, KA, usa - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 18:19:53 (ZULU)
Michael, thanks for the offer. It wasn't that I was wanting to get away from Badgers, I was wanting something that mounted lower than the Badger base, if possible. The rings are Badger all the way. I was going to go with the Leupold QRW bases purr the kittykillers advice -that's a pun there, for low mounts. I suppose I just need to do more of my own homework, and figure out which one is actually the lowest mount, still retaining quality. When dealing with the rest of the costs, another $45 is not worth considering as a savings for me. But if you hear about Mike Rock deciding to have an extravaganza blow-out where all barrels must go for $9.95, let me know, I'll split a pickup load with you.
LT Chip, permanent newbie. I like that. Welcome aboard.
Two Shoes, I checked your link. Nice info. Thank you.
Jaeger
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 19:08:24 (ZULU)
You have a gift for winnowing a complicated issue down to the brass tacks. Your mind works much as Theodore Roosevelt's did--why aren't you in Washington yet? Not an insult-we need analytical pragmatics (in the sense of leaving idealistic feel-good minutia at the door) developing strategy with an eye on "what if". Dude, I mean no insult here--with more like you at the helms of government, we'd get it right the first time! The G-war is dead on, but we are still adjusting I think to the challenge that poses. I ought to avoid that limb--but the media is pretty well informed if you know where to look.
Enough about Dan...his dang heads gunna explode.
Yote: Good comparrison--some are beginning to realize how right you are.
To those offering to send stuff: Thank you. I get into each of the outer camps on a weekly basis, and that is where this stuff is going. I have Sergeants Major' at each Camp (dust bowls) ensuring that the lowest paid kids get first dibs on all of this largesse. The single biggest need is DEET based spray. The sand flees are in season, and them bastadges bite the holy hell outta ya. Actually, they kinda chew their way along until you squash them. Tobacco is next, then books, puzzles etc. If you get Mag subscriptions, mail them after reading--any mags coming off the ship are two months out of date at best. When these kids are rotated back to the camps, they sit in big circus tents (with AC) and watch the sun track accross the roof. We run buses to KNB (beach) but space is limited, so most are bored out of their skull until it is time to be scared out of their skull again. Sports items we have--but it is really too hot for much of that.
use joe.b.(last name)@us.army.mil to get with me for an address...
Now I'll get offers to make a few mil...or maybe not with the trickery!
Joe M.
Joe Mahon
Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 19:46:35 (ZULU)
Good to hear from youse again! We're all pulling for the GI's bud, the hell with the media, the hell with the spin, they don't know shit from shinola...tell the men chicks dig the brave dudes in camo...
We're scouring the maps looking for a good place to set up for 1K yds close to home here, found a good spot wethinks..might get us to 1200+...Geoff has an idea for electronic targets, more like screens with a bunch of microphones attached which locate the shot, and somehow we send the signal back to computer and monitors on the firing line..ideas are flying about during the border barrels tea breaks, yesiree...I have to determine a cartridge for this steenking RPA action which is THE shit by the way...
later..
JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Jockland - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 20:56:02 (ZULU)
Bolt
NC, - Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 22:35:13 (ZULU)