July 03, 2001 - July 13, 2001
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 00:32:11
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.39)
On a big time plus issue Dan Ross and I have emailed back and forth several times. A good possibilty exists that I will have the proper mount and floor plate on the M40A3. I am working at getting an actual USMC M40A3 test weapon so atleast when I write about it I will have shot the hell out of one not just read about the specs and gave an opinion. I have been shooting the one made to USMC Specs for awhile now and can not say anything but good.
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 01:08:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.102.34)
One question. Does anyone know where I can get a M700 clip slotted per USMC specs?
Semper Fi
Steve
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 01:33:38 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.184)
A couple of things before I hit the rack.
Went to camp Butner this weekend to shoot the 1000 yd match. Before I get to the report of that I will address a couple of other things. I saw a couple examples of George Gardner's work there. Two words: polished and professional. Secondly, I met a couple of "confessed lurkers" there too. Nice guys. I hope you guys will come to more of these shoots. Ok to the Match report.
Chapter 1 The Savage/Tasco SS Rig goes to the 1000
What,you say?! Thats right Savage, Tasco and 1000 yards!!
Rifle - Savage 10FP .308
Scope - Tasco SS10x42
Load - Fed brass, CCI std primer, 44.3gr Varget, Sierra 175MK, seated
to 2.815
Here are my scores with 200 being the max score per match. 20 shots per match, 10 points per shot.
Match 1 185-2
Match 2 183-2
Match 3 180-2
These were all shot on Saturday. I only had 70 rounds therefore I could not shoot Sunday. Only 70 rounds because of a couple of things. I had never shot past 600 yards and I had never shot this load. So, get on the line put 35 minutes of elevation on my 200 yard zero, cranked on 1.5 minutes of left wind ( I know you are supposed to hold for wind, I'm a rookie)pulled the trigger. Result, an 8 at 5 o'clock. I'm in the black and happy. I put on another 1/2 minute of elevation and I was there for the rest of the day. Only wind to contend with (which kicked my a**). Wind varied from approximately 2.5 minutes left to 1 minute right. Not too much I guess, but tough on a rookie.
To cut this off, I am happy with the results. This load worked great.
The Savage shot great and the rounds were not "keyholing at the other end
which was a surprise.
Now if we could get enough people to show interest in the HS Precision
stock for the Savage, things would be perfect.
One last note, a couple of guys from Ft. Bragg were there, Huskins and Crawford (Rick, you know these guys?), what a treat to watch those guys keep them in the X-ring.
Semper Fi
Paul
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 02:04:35 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.91.132.179)
Semper Fi dog!!!!
Send you rifle back to GA. George can do it.
Good night all
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 02:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.91.132.179)
I've e-mailed George but haven't gotten a reply yet. Off this week for Independence Day?
The rifle I want clip slotted is the Old M40 in the wood stock with the green scope I showed you at the Match. That's all it needs to be correct.
Thst old stick shot pretty good, I was impressed.
Semper Fi
Steve
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 03:18:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.204.198)
Hold Hard guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 03:37:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.54)
Here is a patriotic quote given to me by one of my old professors whose father was killed in action on Iwo Jima. It reads:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
Don't take this to mean that you have to have been, or be, in the military to be a good American. Just love this country and do what YOU can for it. That's all. And celebrate the Fourth of July. You're an American, it's Your Birthday too.
Semper Fi
2Lt. Stephen B. Field USMC
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 03:48:32 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.204.198)
-Any one know who services KOWA scopes. I have a TSN-1 that I don't think is quite up to spec. Could be the eyepiece that needs tweaked. Also, I have heard that someone does a complete waterproof job on them. Any help here?
-Is anyone still putting mil-dots into a spotting scope since Premier seems to have discontinued the loopy?
-mid range shooting question: I request opinions/ feedback of this
recent experience....Rick? Gooch? anyone?
I recently shot a 600yd prone any-any (read psuedo F=Class) match
with my "sort of" M40A1. Score was 191-3x, definitely got caught by wind
let offs a couple times - not paying close enough attention. After the
match I realized I shot it with Loopy set a 3.5x. Some were saying that
I should have shot better 'cuz I shouldn't have seen any wobble, and others
were amazed that I did that well. Me, I'm in between on my feelings here.
I was using "left over" ammo from an M1a that had never been shot past
300yds out of that rifle, and barely gave moa groups at 300yds from it.
FWIW I'm master class NRA hipower in service rifle.
Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West , PA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 12:54:53 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.107.135.116)
I cannot prove that I am getting a POI shift off of concrete, but I've got that nagging doubt everytime I am forced to set up on a chunk. What I have been doing is taking my Eagle padded scope cover and sitting the bipod legs in it. This gives me two layers of nylon and closed cell foam between the bipod feet and the concrete. I always have the PSC with me until the rifle is deployed so it isn't a problem slipping it into position. Even with this improvement, the rifle will still track poorly during recoil. Absolutely got to be on the gun properly every time (just like you guys say).
Besides any multiple target scenario that necessitates getting back on line quickly, don't forget that single target engagements are just as important on your follow through. Even when engaging a single target, you are out of touch with the situation until you have your field of view (sight picture) back on line with the intended target. Even with a spotter feeding you info, a lot of things can happen in just 2 or 3 seconds.
Bottom line is that I am a puss when it comes to Mr.Murphy. I try to get a few shots logged into my book off of concrete under different conditions and also practice other bipod problems. When in certain environments it would be STUPID to set your bipod feet on a narrow or slippery surface just so you can use the damned thing. It's a tool! JUST CAUSE YOU GOT IT DON'T MEAN YOU GOTTA TO USE IT! Be sure to log in some shots from your ruck sack or other improvised rests. Your rifle will track differently off of these things but when set up properly will have no loss of accuracy.
A freakin bipod leg slipping off an edge when things are in a high pucker factor guarantees a FUBAR.
I'm dumb and paranoid, so when I get a rare moment to actually shoot my rifle, I try to keep it difficult on myself. I don't want to do something for the first time when the shot has to count, even at a match. Everybody just remember that it's OK to shoot a poor group or miss a target in front of your buddies during practice as long a you're learning something and improving your capabilities.
Little things mater at a distance. Don't let tomorrow be the first time you're forced to deal with them in less than perfect (bipod feet on freshly mowed lawn) conditions.
See. I told ya. 2 cents.
Everybody stay safe,
TC
Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 13:47:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.201.48)
Semper Fi
Steve
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 14:12:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.197.186)
Happy 4th of July!
When the Declaration of Independence was declared, John Adams wrote this historic letter to his wife:
"I am apt to believe that this day will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore."
(But for this, I would NOT have thought about touching a beer, but if John Adams says we should...)
Also, note that John said the celebration should include GUNS. So much for the arguments that the founding fathers never meant the 2nd Amendment was for everyone.
Happy 4th Everyone (Now I have to mail this to my British Boss!)
Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 17:46:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
Have any of you found steel trigger gaurds and foorplates for the M70 stealths? The tigger guard is made of cast pot metal and seems very fragile. I cringe each time I torque the action screws. Looking to upgrade, but can't find anyone that makes steel replacements. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Mid-Tenn, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 18:30:04 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.192.184)
Steve – On the 3.5, don’t see where it would make much of a difference myself. You already ignore wobble, so shooting high mag is not a problem and you shoot irons so not seeing the target with perfect clarity is not a problem. You shoot high master with irons. Your brain went into shoot mode and you shot. Sometimes you will shoot REAL good and then sometimes you will merely shot good. You happened to only shoot good that day. :-)
Terry – Agree with you on shooting data, but would not shoot off of concrete with bipods unless unavoidable. Carry the small bench rest stand made by, great name has slipped my brain housing group, but the stand is not attached to the rifle and it rest on the concrete and weapon rests on a the pad. Weapon no hop and stay on target. Also, excellent point you made on recovery to your target. Misses do happen just like s**t, and you need to be back on target sa fast as possible. Always assume a miss, or you will have HSBOSs heading your way. Of course that is better then SSBOHs.
Jefe – They have effectively removed “illuminations, and bonfires” as well as “pomp” and any form of loud behavior. What makes you think the left leaners are going to not go for the whole ball of wax?
Oh well enough for now, will end this and do other fun things.
Hold Hard Guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 19:19:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.201.52)
As many things as I dislike about my home state of Vermont, its the only State I know of whose Supreme Court ruled that requiring a concealed carry permit is unconstitutional because it violates the 2nd Amendment. They havent taken it all yet!
And besides, I remember when the power went out at Fort Bragg, at least in divisions area that there were enuf fireworks to make Mr. Adams very proud! All American, All the Way!!
Meanwhile, life in South America is pretty damn good! The Brits in the company all do their tour and go home till the next one. All the Americans stay here and live while the Colombians try to flee the country. It sure helps with rental prices!
Gotta luv a country where the murder rate goes down 15% when they change closing time at the bars from 2am to 1am!(although it kind of pisses you off at closing time).
Sorry for the off topic post, but I am having entirely too much fun!
Jefe
PS: You need some Sello Rojo or something, just drop me a note and
I will get to it when I can.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 21:28:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
Thanks for the input.
steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, PA, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 03:49:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 151.201.137.27)
At the last local gun show I attended I was looking over the wares at one of the tables when another individual asked the guy behind the table if he had one of the VersaPod adapters for the M1A. It replaces the plug and allows you to attach the bipod to the gas system.
The conversation ran along the lines of any bipod attached to the gas system of an M1A, including the original military bipod, will cause the mating spline on the barrel at the gas system to wear out faster and affect accuracy. The point was if you wanted to mount a bipod to a M1A, mount it to the stock.
What is anyone elses thoughts on the matter?
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 04:29:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.41.40.76)
Have any of you Hogs seen the "Shoot-Rite" palm computer for snipers? I visited thier web site and it looks interesting. I imagine it would really come in handy for those .50BMG shots past 1,500 yards.
I'm very conservative about equipment changes. Anything that takes batteries and can be an emitter is suspect in my book. However I must also be ready to embrace innovation when it is for the better.
So??? What's the skinny on this thing?
Undude....looks like a good subject for your next opus.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 10:49:24
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.68)
Happy July 4th to all.
Lets not forget the significance of today, because if we do there
may not be too many more to celebrate.
Take care
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 12:07:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.252.150)
EMC(SS/DSV) Larry J. Porter, USN, Ret. <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at
13:46:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.138.15)
Bad work/any smith. You have 2 basic paths here. If business was done over state lines, may be able to go on mail fraud. Postal inspectors take this stuff very seriously. The thought of federal legal problems should get people to sit up & take notice.
The other method is local court system. If you & they are local look at small claims court. You will have to get "expert" tesitmony/documentation that the work is bad/part ruined. Remington service center should be able to give you a letter stating that. If out of state send paperwork to better business bureau and/or local district attorney see about state charges. A written evaluation by Remington or someone would also help out with postal inspectors.
There's 2 major ways to identify good smiths: quality or work and how they correct problems. Try as you will, every once in a while something goes out the door that shouldn't. A good buddy had an original Armand Swensen 1911 that got out the door with a 1 7/8 lb trigger. I went nuts trying to figure out how that trigger could be that light without the hammer following. Went to the point of calling the man and his reply amounted to "Oh S@#t, send it back NOW!"
All else fails there's always Gun Parts Inc. for a new bolt.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 14:20:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.21.148.253)
Byron - You mess with the gas system of that weapon and it will shoot two things - Jack and s**t. That lash up will change vibration and POI radically and unpredictably. That is why there is grease under(or supposed to be) the forestock matting collar and the gas collar. This minimizes the rub and the vibration changes as the rub changes.
Now begging the all important question - Why do you change out a perfectly good extractor made by Remington to a SAKO. The Remington extractors we originally had did not start to wear until over 50,000 rounds were put on the bolts. That is not a misprint guys. We also can change an extrctor on the range with a jewlers screw driver and our thumb when they finally do wear out. I just don't see you guys putting on the 8000 rounds a your guns we do on our student guns. Just my 2 cents on this chartge to change the "bad Remy extractor". Makes me wonder if this is not another myth set up by gunsmiths to make more money?
Jefe - That is one thing that I really like about Vermont. Jeffords is one of tose things that I really dislike. :-) (Sorry could not resist!)
Steve - As you know and stated, there are those days when you just do not know what the heck happened. Relax, go into shooter's meditation and then shoot that X. :-)
Hold Hard guys and again, Celebrate safely but celebrate!!!!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 15:19:11 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.37)
Hey how's it going? I saw your post about the bipod for the M1A gas
plug. Any bipod attached to the gas system will cause accuracy problems.
If you want to put a bipod on the M1A attach it to the stock. A swivel
bipod is way better because it helps to keep the pressure at the barrel
band, and stock ferrule consistant. The Versa Pod works real good. It swivels
in two different directions. It pans so you can follow a mover(some), and
swivels so you don't "cant" the rifle if it is on an uneven surface. It
has a quick release feature that allows you to remove the pod from the
mounting stud. It is a copy of the Parker Hale bipod.
I have two M1A's and over the last several years I have tried different
configurations with them. Currently they both have Kreiger barrels, and
McMillan stocks. One is setup like the early version M25 with a Mk4 scope,
and BPT mount. It is very accurate, but at about 17Lbs it is just a bit
too heavy. I enjoy shooting the M1A, but for the same bucks you can buy
a real good custom bolt gun from Nor Cal, or some of the other good rifle
builders. The bolt gun is gonna require less maintenance, and will be more
consistant over the long run. And it won't weigh 17 Lbs!
Hope this helps you decide what you want to do.
Best Regards, and Have a Great Fourth of July!!
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, Ky, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 15:28:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.12.104.34)
None taken. In fact, that ruling and the fact its got some great countryside are the only good things about the state left.
Shouldve known that any place that spawned a soldier like Steve Bnascni would go to hell in a handbasket!
Take Care,
Jefe
jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 16:13:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
HAVE AN AWESOME AND SAFE JULY 4TH!!! HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
God's Country, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 16:59:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.207.51.186)
Changed my Rem extractor for a Sako unit after blowing a primer and causing the extractor to become unreliable. The Sako unit thus far seems reliable, and field repair would not be a major production.
When changing I would have preffered an M16 type unit as used by Savage, for a cleaner installation ,but lost the address of the folks that do that conversion.
Also should be noted That I have a Rem700 from the mid 60's that has had the original barrel replaced after the rifling began to look like an HK, still has the original extractor in it, and I know I got that 8000 round mark beat all to hell on this rifle.
Best to all, be safe on this 4th.
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 18:06:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.232.237.81)
I just couldn't stay quiet on this one... Remington extractors.
My first Rem 40-XB/R 308 was bought NEW in 1966... took it to the
Carlos match in '99 (and shot you twice HA ;) and it got a new extractor
for it, in '96.
I have a bunch more of Rems that are real long in the tooth (circa
late 60's), and they are fine.
The old design is called the rivet or staked extractor, and you could wear one out if you shoot a LOT! (about 20,000+ rounds).
About 20 years ago, Rem re-designed the extractor, and the new one is called the snap-in extractor (very easy to change!! What Rick said... do it your self!)... and you would have to belt feed one for a year to wear it out.
The new design also has a bigger tooth, for more rim grab.
At the same time, they redesigned the replacement staked extractors to have the new style tooth, so once you replace an one style extractor... you will never have to do it again.
I built a M24 clone in 308 last year, and am about to finish another one in 300WM in a few weeks... each one has about $3000 in parts, but not a dime spent on the extractor.
If you are changing the extractor on a M700 bolt, you are just throwing
money away... you will NEVER WEAR OUT A CURRENT Rem EXTRACTOR OUT!!!
... and they do not fail.
"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 18:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.80)
God Bless America!
Obl. sniper-related topic: I have set myself up for a shot at next year's "most-improved shooter" award at the FCSA championship match. If there is such a thing. I did poorly, due to a number of factors, but I did finish, and I learned a lot.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 18:20:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.123.15.245)
Two hours and two gallons of sweat later we now have the target area cleared and mowed with the bank behind the steel mowed "high & tight". We like to account for every round fired with a clang or a splash of dirt. Now we'll be able to see what's happening and adjust our settings.
It's starting to shape up nicely. The farmer was cultivating his cabbage so no shooting this morning. Maybe later this afternoon.
I got two yards of red flag nylon at the fabric store yesterday and will create a range flag to fly when the range is hot. (expensive stuff)
Gooch & Rick,
I did a safety fan for the range even before I asked permission.
We've got a full 2,000 meters of vacant rising gound behind the 12 foot
high bank against which our targets are set. The next property down range
is the County Landfill. We're good to go. It'll be a while before we start
shooing night fire under parachute-flares. ;-)
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 20:25:51
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)
Glad to see your post, now get your ass back in here.
Got to say this, the Rem snap in extractor may never 'wear out ', but they do fail. Mine did and it only takes one to make the point. Failed right in the middle of a two day class to boot. Embarassing.
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 21:09:03 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.198.13)
I am going to respectfully ask you to resolve this rifle dilemna somewhere other than the Duty Roster. The related posts will be removed and filed elsewhere.
If there is a problem act as adults and resolve it following correct adult behavior and, or, customer service practices.
If this cannot be done, the S/C Council can deal with it other ways
Do I make myself ABSO-F&*#KINGLUTELY CLEAR?
Oh and by the way
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY TO THE USA, AND All OF ITS CITIZENS!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 21:16:53 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.24)
First of all, happy 4th from across the big pond. Now if you all would start congratulating me with the 5th of may that would be cool. Oh.... I forget ..... it was you who liberated us, so I guess I should thank you on that day.... ;-)
Question: can anyone give me a good explanation (or point me to one available online) why BOTH uphill AND downhill shooting require the same compensation? It's OK to tell preople that it is so, but it's something else (not to say: it sucks) if some smart*ss starts asking you WHY. (If you're reading this, sorry Dimitri).
Thanks for any help you can give.
Stefan
Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at
21:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.46.159.37)
Stefan - You are shooting a right angle triangle and the ballistic range for elevation is the short leg whether you are at the top or at the bottom. However never forget that the wind and weather effects is figured on the long leg! Thus you may have an actual range of 600 meters wheich you figure wind drift while the gravity range is only 450 meters. Adds fun to the shooting huh. :-)
Mike - The only extractor failures that I have seen with our weapons have been due to either poor maintenence or overly large round counts. You must have had one of the bad ones that pop up to prove what great extractors they really are. :-)
Jefe - Steve is salt of the earth man! Who else would have a female of uncertain persuasion call my house at 9 at night from Panama as a joke? Wife was not amused! :-(
Hold Hard Guys!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 01:18:19 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.46)
You brought up a point that may be of interest to a few folks here, certainly to me. Could you outline proper maintainence procedure for the Rem700 action and bolt?
Thanks in advance,
Mike
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 01:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.232.237.60)
Also like to second the request from a few days ago for drawings to machine stripper clip slots in model 700 actions. I'm sure there's some guys who'd do a great job. I just prefer to do my own work. Makes the warranty issue easier to deal with.
A very large thank you to Mr. Gooch & Mr. Rick on the bipod prone
position. Works MUCH better than the instructions given by an alleged authority
with another agency. Have found out why they went to more vertical pistol
grips though. I need to work on this more.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
deprivation, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 02:33:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.21.108.106)
I agree. Customer service is half of what you pay for. If a company is not going to comply with their own guarantee, they won't be in business for long. A company is only as good as its word.
Just one thing though, man your last post was hot, and you really made your point, but with whom? All I'm sayin is that ya should be dealin' with the guy who f'ed up.
later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 02:53:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.113.85.43)
Id have to agree with you. I feel kinda silly after my stint with Winchester, but it would never had gone this far on the board.
A suggestion for anyone unsatisfied with a product they have received. Review it, or have a friend who knows what's what review it and send said review into the site for consideration. I'm sure Pete or Marius or whomever is reviewing at the time will be able to pick up on any one sided BS in the article and get decent info out for reiview. If your fair in you evaluation and fair in your testing, let the performance do the speaking for you.
Just a thought from a newbie. Hoping today finds you all in good health and high spirits.
Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Heavy Rain' strong Wind, Still out shootin', Mid-Tenn, USA - Thursday,
July 05, 2001 at 02:56:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.172)
Same Steve I know! I grew up with him up until about 6th grade when they went south and I ran into him when I was in the 193rd. He visited one year at Christmas and there I was, in a barfight at a ski area at the age of 30 something. The fun never stops around him, but like the guy told his lawyer when asked about how he was getting along with his weightlifting cellmate named bubba; "Ya gotta luv him."
Serious note though, (for a change), what are your thoughts on this:
MTN INF CO with 3 Sniper teams deploys for peacekeeping. One team is tasked for company support forward of the FFU (being the base camp), one is OPCON to the S2 and the last team stands down and pulls some security at the base camp.
What do you think about that? I realize its vague on the scenario.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 03:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
I saw something similer, if not exactly the same, at a gun show recently.
The tubes appeared to be made out of closed cell foam rubber. Very light
and flexible enough you could fold one up and stick it in your back pocket..
But, not being affixed to the scope through any significant means other
than a stretch friction fit, it took very, and I mean very little to push
the tube off-axis to where you couldn't see a thing through the scope.
A cable tie would likely be necessary.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 07:41:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 65.25.160.112)
I know this subject has been discussed "ad nauseum" but here goes.
I've got my 175's @ 2,675 fps and I'm using the .30-06 dial. (I'm told it's supposed to match.)
At ranges out to 600 yards I'm using on the average two minutes less than the dial range marks. I know I can just log the data and shoot the actual come-ups but if that's the case some of the utility of the dial is lost.
I'm going to re-chrono my loads to be sure they aren't faster than originally thought. However I'm only loading 43.3 grains of Varget now.
Thoughts?
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 12:24:36
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
On a bolt problem for a Remington 700. If you need a new bolt the weapon will probably have to go back to Remington. They quit selling bolts years ago because of liability. Future never change the extractor type unless no choice like in a 338 Lapua conversion. I would say the best thing to do is have someone like George Gardner take a look at it. Neither you or the smith will ever agree at this point to whats fair.
On Bipods, I also use an Eagle Scope protector when all else fails to shoot off the concrete. If I dont get a good position that way I go to the pack. Next is just edge the feet into the soil. Any hard surface will cause the bounce. You can play with loading force onto the legs but then you have to be equal in the force applied to get it consistent and that is a nightmare to learn. While on this subject if you have a Parker Hale type pod you will probably get better groups by learning to load the bipod. This is because it is one wobble after another with that thing. The force will take out some of it. Now dont try and break it just a few pounds to sette it.
On a computor article. I think that thing is being pushed by Trigger 50 and he would probably do his own thing on who writes what. I dont think they will beat down my door for an evaluation. I still believe in dope it dial it dump it. Dope to me is Temp, range, wind, ammo, elevation. There are certain calculations I dont use that will be on the comp. that I have never used and that would probably leave me out of the loop. BUt hell I am with Rick and Gooch on this so not bad company.LOL
Undude back t his hole
PS nice to see you you old Pablito you!
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 13:53:35 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.85.148)
On the M3 BDC...I'm just now working up loads to match my cam and am learning about the scope, as well.
Bravo probably has as much experience with this, on M25's, as any of us. Since I'm new to the M3 I really can't comment.
Stan, it would be nice if you would write up your procedure for "tensioning" the A.R.M.S mount and setting up your scope on the M25 for posterity. HINT, HINT!
Undude has it right, IMHO. Dope it, Dial it, Dump it! You're wasting valuable time doing anything else. Works for me...
By the way, glad to see the Marines let you loose. You're lucky. They have the habit of hanging onto "a few good men"...;-)
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 14:11:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.5)
Thanks,
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 14:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
167.234.102.23)
I think the problem is more with the smith who puts them in. It seems that the older rivit ones are kindof tricky for some people and they do tend to screw them up. I have never touched the one on my 308/260 and its on its 3rd barrel.
Reputable Smiths..
Most any quality rifle builder will take care of a problem ASAP
since their work is their reputation. We all need to understand that even
the best smiths will have a bad barrel or have something slip by. The problem
arises when they don't correct it or offer to make it right but those people
won't stay in business long.
Rick or any other long range genious..
Why in the hell do I go out one day and shoot a course nearly a
full MOA low from 600yds on out when I have shot it just fine for several
weeks with the same dials under nearly identical conditions!!!The ammo
I use is NOT temp sensitive and is out of the same batch. I have had this
happen before and it drives me NUTS and gives me NIGHTMARES!!!
The humidity and dew points weren't as high as when I shot it several
days earlier so thats out. The wind was out of the exact same direction
at nearly the same speed. The only real difference was time of day 0700am
to 1630 for the previous time.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 16:21:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Pat seem to remember something about chasing the light. Lights up,
sights down, Lights down sights up or something like that but most of my
shooting is only to 350 yds these days so it dosen't really matter in my
case. Maybe the guru's could explain light.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 17:09:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Only ever saw one fail. It was during a High Power Silhouette Championship. The guy stepped off the line long enough to "borrow" a bolt from another shooter. (Kinda makes your skin crawl don't it?) He went on to finish and placed high enough to win in his class.
Ha...borrow a bolt....go figure.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 18:16:14
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
shots over - fire-mission accomplished
standing down till next engagement
Out
Fire-control officer <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 19:17:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.181)
Call George Gardner 816-221-1844
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 20:38:19 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.192.208.6)
Posted some Book/Movie reviews from Scott - take a look.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 21:21:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.215)
When the light is bright, your eye can more easily resolve the edge of the black, so you tend to hold on the true edge (lower), rather than further into the black when the edge is indistinct.
HTH
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 23:25:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.123.15.245)
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 00:39:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.54.201)
Just back from the range. Thursday evening has become our "snper" get together for a few of us. Tonight we worked from the 200 yard line. I decided to take my newly broken in .223 Stealth and a handload that has show some promise at 100 yards.
Conditions: Wind 10-12 mph variable, temperature 70 degrees, clear sky. Shooting was done prone.
My load was a .223 Winchester case(match prep'd), 24.6 gr. IMR-4895, Federal 205 Match primer, and a Sierra 69 gr. Match King.
In spite of the wind all groups were sub-moa. Several were less than .5 MOA. Correct elevation for this load was +1 MOA from my 100 yard zero. Need to chronograph it this next week, but it looks like we have a WINNER! Damn, that Stealth shoots!
All for now. I hear my bed calling...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 04:47:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.1)
Does anyone have any information about any of the hand held wind/conditions meters. Since I am looking at recording a little more data regarding the range conditions when gathering load information I figured I might buy one. The unit that seems the most promising right now is the Kestrel 4000, running about $300.
Here is some basic info:
The Kestrel® 4000 Pocket Weather™ Tracker is the next generation of weather monitoring. You can now measure EVERY major environmental condition, easily and accurately, right in the palm of your hand. The chart mode allows users to recall and graph up to 250 measurements, along with the date and time of storage. Barometric Pressure, Altitude, Density Altitude, Temperature, Humidity, Wind Speed, Wind Chill, Dew Point, Wet Bulb, and Heat Index... all in one pocket sized instrument.
It is about twice the price of their 3000 but has altitude and barometric
pressure and the others don't. Anyone know of another product that will
fit the bill?
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 05:23:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.41.42.205)
I suspect that you usually know your shooting elevation, and at most distances them effect of different barometric differences will be very slight.
Spend the difference on a long range rifle course and ammo and go
shoot.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
Gearing up for New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 05:52:20
(ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)
M40A1:
Just disassembled cleaned completely and reassembled the new rig.
The action screws were only finger tight. Now they're at 65 in.lb. We'll
see today if that makes a difference.
Oh well off to do some PT...I like it, I love it, I want more of it.........
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 08:27:20
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.174)
I use the Brunton "Sherpa" wind/baro/temp meter, (for several things)
and find it to be very accurate. That being said, the real secret is STILL
to go out and shoot lots. If you want to dope the wind and temp, then check
it with the meter, go for it until you're comfortable. Other than being
a learning tool, a meter might become a crutch that would really slow you
down, and the d@#m batteries WILL die at the worst time. Unless you travel
a bunch, the factors other than wind are more seasonal than something you
need to worry about daily.
Flattop <BKFlattop@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 12:45:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.161.197.133)
I always use the MOAs at the bottom of the ring. For quick shooting I painted over the yardage numbers at the top and then scribed in my own yardage numbers over the "Correct" MOA for "MY" pet load, not theirs, and it works great, just a suggestion.
Wind Meters..
I use the simple hand held with the speed and temp. Works great
but as they say don't let it become a crutch. I make the wind call "FIRST"
then I check my call to see how close I am.
The thing that you really need to learn to read is the mirage or
the grass and folage. It will tell you what the wind is doing down range.
If your shooting across canyons or down or across draws the wind down range
can actually be blowing the opposite direction your reading at your position.
Just something else to confuse everyone!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 13:33:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Where can I get an armorers manual for the Steyr SSG series of rifles? In english. Thanks.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 13:43:35 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.173.17.78)
I have researched a lot about the windmeters. I thought Kestrel 3000 was a bit overkill but the Kestrel 4000 definately is overkill for shooting. For weather freaks it is a good meter, for shooting it is too complex.
I think Kestrel 1000 or Kestrel 2000 would be enough for most shooters. If you need a little bit more stuff, go and buy a Alti WindWatch. www.sciencecompany.com in Denver sells both Kestrel and Alti WindWatch. The Kestrel 1000 was about $65 inc.s&h.
Kestrel 3000 is there $112.95 inc. S&H
Alti WindWatch is there $119.95 inc. S&H (special, not many
available)
I bought a Alti WindWatch a while ago from Science Company. It meters temperature, barometric pressure (registers always the last 16 hours), wind speed, wind chill, altitude 0-30000 ft. It floats, weighs around two ounces, has a 2 year Warranty and is Swiss made. The same unit is sold also under Silva, Brunton, Windtec and probably other brand names.
Using wind meters: I think the best use of these is to use them to learn wind estimation. First you feel the wind and guess the speed. Then you verify it with the meter. Over time you will learn to estimate the winds pretty well. Long range shooting you will only learn by shooting. Electronics can help a little bit but they can only help, they can not shoot the rifle.
BTW www.sciencecompany.com is the cheapest place in the net for Kestrel
1000/2000/3000 and Alti WindWatch that I have found. In some other places
Alti WindWatch costs around $169-$230 so I think this company has a pretty
good deal on these meters.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 15:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.58.22.7)
P.S. I just thought I'd cover me arse with the dislaimer above.
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 16:13:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.182)
HOOOYAH!
I just returned from my lunch hour at the range next door. (Yes,
I know.)
Tightening the action screws to 65 in.lbs reduced group sizes by half. I just shot .46 MOA. (very pleased)
Average velocity is 2,720 fps with a SD of 9 fps.
Group is 1/2" above the POA.
This might explain why I'm 2 minutes under the M3LR dial settings at 600 yards. Can I get a check on that?
I established the velocity of 2,675 with cases from which I had pulled the bullets. Could the increased neck tension of a once loaded case result in a 45 fps velocity increase?
Back to the loading bench.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 16:52:21
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Was up a McClellan on 3 July talking to the range officer and the scheduling lady. We are in. All I need is some feedback on dates from ya'll.
This will be an International League of Riflemen OPEN Practical Precision Rifle (PPR) event with military/Police and citizen classifications. ILR is going to be a CMP affiliated organization so entry will require you to be eligible for entry in Civilian Marksmanship Program activities. (You must have no legal restrictions on firearms possesion/ownership and not be a member in any organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the US Government.)
The ranges at Fort Mac are closed 10-12 and 22-25 Nov. Weekends are rough since the reserve forces eat them up and we risk getting bumped on weekends. We can have reporting/registration on a sunday and shoot mon-tues with awards on tuesday evening.
Those of you that are serious about attending give me some ideas on dates and I'll take them into consideration. Any conflicting events anyone knows of?
McClellan in in Anniston, AL, between Birminham and Atlanta on I-20. I'm working on a special rate for hotels.
Next year we will have a series of PPR matches accross the country. Maybe one in Canada.
Those that attend the match this Nov. will recieve a special coin commemorating the first ILR Practical Precision Rifle match and will receive a charter membership to the ILR.
What is a good entry fee for those who are thinking of attending? We will have prizes including a rifle or two. Entry will also require a membership to ILR which looks like $40 for annual and $300 for lifetime.
More info on ILR and the match will be posted on the ILR website (www.riflemen.net) when it is up in a few days (we hope).
If you yahoos have any comments for me please send them to goochkw@riflemen.net.
Here we go!!
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 16:56:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.214.53.91)
On the M1A bipod question, the ONLY way to go is to bed a stud into the fore-end. Ideally, there should be a steel plate bedded into a channel inletted in the barrel channel, then the stud mounted to that. Even better is to have the stock formed around some steel plates, like McMillan does for their Wichita sling swivels. Not much extra dough, but you've got to order it that way from the start.
Anyone putting on one of those versa-pod spigots in place of the gas cylinder plug needs his head examined.
And to Wes: I'm also interested in reading an article on mounting the ARMS base up to a M1A receiver. When you get it, could you pass it on?
Hope this isn't too goofy for a newby post, I know how you guys hate
those.
Victor <gasgunguy@yahoo.com>
Kalifornicate-ya, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 17:55:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.9.223.237)
I just received 500 pieces of Winchester brass and a box of 500 SMK175s. I have 1000 Federal Match primers. As soon as I can get an 8# can of Varget I will be in business. All smiles!!!!
Speaking of primers, what are some opinions on Fed Match vs. CCI Bench Rest?
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 18:15:45 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.173.17.78)
-chase
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, ID, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 20:08:19 (ZULU) (your host
address: 167.234.101.89)
Yikes!
You describe quality scopes and rifles.....I would suspect the mounts
and rings.......
Go Badger and never look back.
FWIW here's my set-up:
Rifle drilled and tapped to #8-32
Badger one piece steel 20 MOA base Torx screwed and loctited in
place
Badger rings torqued to 65 in.lbs to the base
Top ring half attached by Torx screws at 35 in.lbs.
My SWS took a 4' fall to thinly carpeted concrete and never shifted zero.
Good luck officer Thomas.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 20:59:19
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
For example I have four department weapons with Leupolds and three with US Optics. None of which ahve ever changed zero from similar things. The Leupolds will if you beat the hell out of them but not under normal use. Certainly not from the case falling over. The US Optics have never shifted zero no matter how we treated them.
If you are getting what you descripe you ahve big problems and no way you would get a zero! If it moves from a tap on the scope a violent recoil would certainly move it. The problem you describe is usually a broken reticle but not likely to happen to all unless you have animals with rocks working for you.LOL Seriously look to the mounts then the action screws (Torque) and thebbls being truly free floated.
If you need further help get ahold of me via email
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 21:45:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.85.148)
I have a Loopy M3LR mounted to a Rem 700 on Badger base and rings. Everything is properly torqued and Loctited in place.
While I won't admit to being as clumsy as Kevin (Andy's dad) is (LOL), my gun gets it's share of banging around in normal everyday use, even when in its case. I have yet to loose my zero due to rough handling.
Sounds like you guys went top drawer for equipment - except for the scope mount stuff.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, July 07, 2001 at 02:09:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.194.212)
Paul, Norm Crawford was 3rd in the Leach Cup 1,000 yard match at Perry in '98, and with the Palma Match he qualified for the '99 US Palma Team that went to South Africa. That's 1,000 yards, iron-sighted, shooting a 155 Sierra Match King.
Traded out two guns I never shot for a Harrington and Richardson 50's-make M1 Garand for the John Garand Match at Perry. CMP delivered a can of 280 rounds, M1 30-06 Ball to the door for $60 bucks, plus 15 for shipping. They've got 5,000 rounds of GI .22 Standard Velocity Match for $75 again.
One of my guys got a George Gardner 300 Win Mag for Alaskan bears. Nice rifle!
Darren Dong / Mike Miller, when we were circling over San Francisco Bay to jump into the Giants/A's game at Pac Bell Stadium I saw a 600 yard KD range about 2-3 miles west of the north end of the Golden Gate Bridge. Is that still active (I think it used to be Fort Mason or Fort Funston)?
Anyone else heading to Perry?
Back to the garage to load.
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, July 07, 2001 at 04:32:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.88.228.100)
That is the first that I heard of this. I know there is a 200 yard range up North in Santa Rosa. East of us is Chabot with a 100 and 200 yard range. We have several ranges down South and they are either 100 or 200 or just 100. East of us is Sacramento, that goes out to 1000 yards. I think I will look into this and get back to you on this.
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Saturday, July 07, 2001 at 04:51:57 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.24.38.136)
Next week a number of us will be off in New Mexico while James and Mike try to teach us to shoot better! It should be a pretty interesting crowd with a number of nice rifles. Rumor has it that George (G&A Precision) might even show........
Bravo, we will miss your ever ready opinions and Bravo Brew! Hang in there!
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 06:07:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.192.208.6)
Yep we've been off shootin'.
Andy and I shot in a High Power Match yesterday.
I took My SMLE No. 4, Mk2.. I shot a 398 with the old warhorse.
My Garand is in the shop getting a new barrel and what not.
Next summer I'm going to go to Camp Perry and attend the school there and shoot the National Matches. I've never been there but have always wanted to go.
Now there's a spot for a Rendezvous!
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 11:06:32
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.59)
I can not speak of the Chandler rifles, but I have extensive experience with Armament Technology rifles and I am throughly impressed with the quality and accuracy. Andy knows how to build rifles and you can't go wrong. On the Chandler side of the house I have heard good things about their rifles. I will be attending his Blackwater Lodge course in November so I can give you some more feedback then! Good luck. I recommend you contact Andy and give him a shout.
Jeff
JC Wilson <blackhawk@mb.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 14:03:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.200.254.110)
Good for you for deciding to shoot at Perry! Bring your son along as well.
Summer 1999 was my first-ever trip to the National Matches, something I'd read about every year since I was an NRA Junior Shooter at 12 years old. Every September when I got the "National Matches Results" edition of the American Rifleman, I'd always wondered what it would be like.
My first competition day at the Nationals I was standing on the 200 yard line, and was wondering in my head...I was shooting with around 1250 of the best service rifle shooters in the United States.
"I'm shooting as a soldier in the US Army.
I'm shooting at the National Matches at Camp Perry...
I'm shooting in the President's Hundred...
I have no idea where those first five rounds went."
The Nationals schedule is pretty varied -- if you don't have a lot of vacation time, you can shoot just the President's Hundred and the Leg, or if you can just spare a weekend you can shoot the Garand Match on Saturday (everyone brings an "Arms Room" grade M1, Carbine, Springfield, Johnson, or M1917, or they'll issue you an M1 on the line. Everyone shoots issue Ball at 200 yards: 5 rounds to zero, and 10 rounds for record, prone; 10 rounds sitting rapid; and 10 rounds standing). If CMP issued you the M1, and you don't have one, this year they're giving you the option of buying that rifle, right there!
If you've never shot standing and sitting, and you just have a scoped rifle you can shoot the three days of "Canadian Cup" Long Range competition at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards (the only restriction is the third and last day is .308 caliber iron-sights only in the Palma Match).
See you there!
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 14:21:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.88.228.100)
Dustin and Jeff.
I have the first experimental 6.5 X .284 that Iron Brigade Armory built. They since have three more in process. I am more than pleased with the rifle. It is a functional work of art. Mine consistently does 1.5" at 600 yards with selected handloads, holds zero, and is a joy to shoot.
As for Armament Tech rifles...I have no experience with them. Note, there are a number of makers out there that build fine rifles. Rice, Gardner, and others have a super reputation. No matter who you decide upon, go with a "known quantity", and don't "cheap charlie" it. You'll be much better off in the long run.
The downside is that you'll wait about a year for the Chandler gun. I can't vouch for the other shops. If you want a real USMC spec gun this is the ONLY way to get one. Spendy, but worth every penny!
Semper Fi,
Wes Howe
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 15:46:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.36)
I will be dragging a couple of them out to NM on Thursday.
Just like Wes said, buy from a quality maker, and you will be happy.
Then shoot the piss out of it!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 16:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.192.208.6)
I think you are embarking on a program to take good shooting rifles and convert them to noise-makers. Yes, there are chamber inserts out there. They add about 1/2 inch of freebore, in a game where shooters try to put the bullets into or very near the lands to minimize jump.
I'd be surprised if your accuracy was up to your expectations.
My $.02
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 02:22:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.123.15.245)
Rifle #1, Remington 700 Short Action, McMillan McHale Stock, HS Precision stainless triggerguard, detachable 3 round mag. Obermeyer 1-10 twist 5R stainless barrel, 26'' length .975 at muzzle. Tuned Remington trigger. Finished in black KG teflon.
Rifle #2, Dakota 76, Solid bottom single shot, OD/Black McMillan
McHale stock. Cooper Precision/Mike Rock 1-10 stainless 5R barrel 26"
.875 at muzzle. Finished in black KG teflon.
Both rifles were broken in by firing 10 singles and then 3 shot groups for the next 30. Both barrels seemed to foud veary little if not at all. I did experience some pressure problems with factory Winchester 180 gr loads, in rifle #1 only. This was probably due to the Tight .298 Obermeyer Bore. No problems at all with any other loads. Here is the Scoop:
Win 180 gr Factory PP SP, Avg Vel Rifle#1 3080 Rifle#2 3062
Win 150 gr Factory Bal tip Avg Vel Rifle#1 3225 Rifle#2 3198
Handload #1 73 gr VV N560, 175MK Avg Vel #1 3168 #2 3130
Handload #2 55 gr Varget, 175 MK Avg Vel #1 3078 #2 3051
Handload #3 57 gr Varget, 168 MK Avg Vel #1 3123 #2 3104
Accuracy was superb with the reloads, both rifles shot like lasers .250", 3 shot groups were the normal with a couple groups in the .190" range. The worst was .480
The Factory 180 grain loads averaged about 3/4 Moa with the 150 Balistic tip factory loads this was knocked down to a 1/2 Moa average.
In all I believe the 300 WSM to be far superior to the 300 win mag in accuracy and pulling on its coattails in the horsepower department. And best of all in a Short Action!! Any of you that have been thinking of doing a rifle in this caliber or converting a short action. Thumbs up Here.
Take Care
George Out
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 05:48:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.248.155.66)
Jan Thomas
I'm pretty rough on my gear and haven't experienced the POI shifting you describe. I'm not a "duty slotted" anything but a fairly serious varmint and long range shooter. My typical setup is a Leupold scope and Badger Rings on a heavily constructed carry rifle. My 'sniper' rifle seldom rides in it's Pelical case and my 'varmint' rigs never see a case. I generally just pile the rifle into the rear of my pickup and let it 'settle' and ride with the rest of the junk back there. (I don't abuse them but I don't baby them either. I'd guess I'm about a 6 on the "commercial airline baggage handler's" abuse scale.) I've had them take falls out of the truck onto blacktop and rocks, slip sidways off the side of the truck and clatter onto the blacktop and/or ground. I raise and lower them by rope into and out of trees and they suffering an occasional 'whack' against the truck or limb.
I've had hunters shudder and shake thier head after seeing some of the falls and tumbles the rifles and I have taken, they're obviously sure that it'd take several days at the range to get a 'zero' back on the rifle. Most of them are instant converts to the big heavy tactical scopes, bases and rings after seeing the rifle(s) shoot to POA/POI subsequent to these 'killer' falls and whacks.
Your post is the first I've heard in many years concerning a POI shift due to a 'tap' on a quality scope. I'm not dis-believing you, I'm just a little confused as to how this happens.
Sign me up for your test program, another 'whack' or two isn't going to be noticable on my gear. I could even video the 'whacking' process and shot strings if you wish. Any opportunity to send a few more rounds down range is definately worth while.
Dave "Doc" King
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 11:40:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.158.166.157)
Does anybody really take a camera tripod on a stalk?
I've got one all tricked out with the PVC saddle with padding etc.
and it seems pretty bulky. I don't use a drag bag in the stalk but it would
seem necessary if I were to "drag along" a tripod.
Ref: Case Neck Tension
How does a tight case to bullet fit effect velocity? (tighter=faster?)
Ref: Camelback Cleaning
I just bought a "bore brush" for my camelbak drinking tube. What I scrubbed out of that tube was nasty. Store your Camelback systems clean and dry all kinds of stuff will grow in there and it could make you pretty sick.
Ref: Natural Veg. & Ghillie Suits
Are there any tricks to attaching natural vegitation to the Ghillie Suit?
out
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 12:41:57
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
A question about the work GA Precision did to your 300 RUM. I have a 300WM I want to rebarrel and have the action worked on. How much did it run you to have them do the work for you? I pretty much need what you got minus the bedding job. Thanks.
Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 14:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.22.212.106)
I am trying to find some private land by 1500 X 1000 for stalking excercise North of San Francisco or East of San Francisco. I want it far away from prying eyes. Any ideas and suggestion would be appreciated.
I am trying to put together a 2 day stalk class with Mike Miller.
Any questions, toss them my way. Thanks in advance
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 14:26:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.211.20.29)
Byron had asked me to post the results of my Winchester M70 .223 Stealth testing. Rifle is box stock, .223, 1/9" twist/26" barrel.
Load:
Winchester cases(new/match prep'd)
Federal 205 Match primer
24.6 gr. IMR-4895
Sierra 69 gr. Match King
Velocity: 2,949 FPS
This was a real surprise,as the Sierra Manual only lists 2,700 FPA from a 20" barrel. This should drop about 16 MOA at 600 yards. I'll test and let you know the results.
One prone 200 yard group was an amazing 5/8" for five rounds. All others were .5 MOA. I LIKE THIS RIFLE!
Semper Fi,
Wes
Not a mousegun shooter, but they are fun!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:00:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.94)
Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:11:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.81.71.55)
Since your not a mouse gun shooter and it will only do 1/2 moa at 200 I'll tell you what; I will take it off you hands and even pay the shipping!
In all seriousness sounds like you have a real keeper and don't change a thing. As soon as I can throw some together and get to a range I will let you know what they do from a 700P, in the interest of inquiring minds.
Thanks Again,
Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:13:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.41.73.254)
Re: 300WSM, "there are not any good short actions with the proper
bolt face". What is wrong with the Win M70 Classic SA that was pretty much
designed for the WSM? I'm fully aware of the M700's long career with the
military (and LE) but c'mon!
Mr. A ;-) <asimon@gj.net>
Not in the land of Stren, Big Red W, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at
15:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.173)
Anyone else hear or have any more news on this?
The July 2001 issue of the Marine Corps Gazette reports that the USMC Snipers are testing a 6.5mm. 142gn Sierra in a WSM case @3186 fps. Rifle platforms are Armalite AR T-10 and Knights SR-25 w/24-26" bbls, also testing Lightforce Scopes with "Special Reticle".
This set-up delivers 408 more fpe @ 550 Mtrs. than AA 11 165 gn.
Serria Sniper .308.
The 6.5 WSM stays supersonic beyond 1500yds.
When compared against bolt guns on hits on multiple (12x12) targets
@ 550 yds, the AT 10/SR-25 the avg. shot/hit times were, on avg. 3-4 sec.
as compared to 9-10 with the bolt guns. First shot hits were (in all winds)
93% for the 6.5 WSM, as compared to 80% for the 308. These tests were performed
by experienced USMC, USA, and USN-SEAL Snipers alternating in relays with
the their Bolt Guns then the test Semi-Autos.
(information as as related to me from a friend on the phone)
ironman0311 <ironman0311@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 17:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.24)
Sinister, the base you speak of is an old Nike Base. Out of serveice for many years now. A tourist attraction. Ranges are closed.
Guys asking to have bbls installed. Pay the cash and have the action trued in addition to the bbl screwed on. With the 300 Win make certain you know what chamber you are getting. If you are handloading have it cut long. If you are using factory loads have it cut for the bullet length you will shoot. Big difference between Federal factory Civilian 190 grains and what you can get out of either the Navy load or hand loads. The latter two are way longer and the velocity goes way up.
Darren thats in yards and no shooting required on the property other than blanks.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 17:21:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.193.179)
I never brought a camera tripod on a stalk because of the bulk and because its easier to skip that and use some sticks lashed together if need be and FFP permits.
I did use them when photographing the objective though if that was required. The pictures come out far better.
As far as neck tension, the only answer I have for that is a 12 pack of cold local beer and a girl named Maria Paula.
SERIOUS NOTE:
I am going to work on an article for the roster on information gathering for the sniper. If anyone wants to pitch in their two cents feel free and once my draft is finished, I can email it to those who might have something to add so we get the best quality product in the training section we can.
Best Rag guards,
Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, July 09, 2001 at 18:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
I meant that the sticks got cut before the FFP and were used in the
FFP if the terrain worked for that. Not that you should cut the sticks
and prepare them in the FFP.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, July 09, 2001 at 18:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
6.5 WSM: All the 264 wildcats have potential. My favorite is my 6.5-06 out of a 21" Hart barrel. Gives me 1" groups at 300 yds with 142 MKs all day and it's easy on the shoulder and the budget. For 1500 yds I'd use a 338 Lapua. None of the standard 30 cal bullets come close to the BC of the 6.5's so 1500 is reasonible.
I sure hope the USMC has a big budget for barrels, 3200 fps is going
to eat them like crazy.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 18:16:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
I would say that the number one factor in selecting a custom smith is HIS reputation, not just his guns reputations. You buy a little piece of the gunsmith when you pick one if his guns. Not only are you going to be dealing with him on the initial purchase but also for repair work if anything goes awry. It doesn't take a real hard perusal of the archives to pick up on one M40 copier who is slower than shit and who is hard as hell to get a decent gun out of.
Pick one of the regulars on this site and you will be safe.
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 19:12:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.214.52.93)
There are a few 40x recievers out there with short bolts with Magnum .540 bolt faces, as well as the older 350 rem mag 700's. Remington will have a 700 in the 300 WSM for 2002. this will solve the problem alltogether.
George Out
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 19:41:06 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.44)
I have before, but it depends on the AO. I normally get the most use out of tripods when doing urban ops and when doing concealments. It's mostly a school thing IMO, but it does have some usage IRL. Just one more club in the bag, so to speak.
USMC and 6.5mm/WSM. Interesting, this is the 1st I've heard about
it. Last year at Perry they were talking about playing with the 6.5/284,
and I think that's a better bet right now. 142's at 3200 sounds like a
recipe for short barrel life, not to bag on that too much because I'd love
to have one out in the woods. 21 minutes of elevation gets you from 100yds
to 1000yds, and you need maybe 4 minutes of wind at 1000. Cool. I think
the 7mm/WSM has more potential for longer barrel life and should be just
a little better than the 7RemMag. Why does everyone ignore the 7mm? Wish
Sierra would pull their heads out and copy the 180gn JLK. Plus I'd like
to see a hardcore(tungsten or DU) round being tested because there's a
lot of class III and (less often) class IV stuff out there these days.
Think you're just going to make 1st round head shots at 600yds?
Think again. Semper Fidelis..Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 19:43:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.4.253.164)
Semper Fi,
Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 20:22:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.22.212.194)
Wes, I will shoot either my Rice or Gardner built rifles against anything and that includes Chandlers.
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 20:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.103.21)
1. Is it true that most of the "rifle building" of the Chandler rifles is outsourced?
2. Is there really $5000+ worth of work that can go into a Remington based rifle?
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 21:15:35 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.173.17.78)
Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 21:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.22.212.194)
Answer: Yes, some work is outsourced, I don't think that's a secret.
"2. Is there really $5000+ worth of work that can go into a Remington based rifle?"
Answer: Not in my opinion. However, just because a Rolex doesn't keep better time than a Casio doesn't mean there isn't value in a Rolex. The Chandler name has a great deal of prestige. Owning one of their rifles can be worth the extra money to some folks. That's ok, this is America after all.
I had a M40A1 built by a local guy nobody knows. It took seven months and cost $2,100. It shoots as well as a Rolex, er ah...I mean Chandler.
Again, just my opinion but if you have a M40A1 built to spec. by any competent riflesmith it will be the equal to any other except for the Gucci logo.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 21:56:21
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.54)
I complained to Leupold Service representative that I did not like the fact they send the repaired scope back without the battery and that I had to buy a new one before I could not even test whether the scope now worked or not. They promised to send me a new one with sime other stuff.
Today, after a week of their reply I got the battery and a pretty stylish Leupold baseball cap.
So it took one week to fix the scope and another to fix the rest of their service. I think Leupold handled it pretty well and I am a happy customer.
So to give credit to where it is due, Leupold warranty service works very well.
Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:33:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.119.78)
I am planning to buy both a Camelbak Thermobak system and a Eagle Industries AIII-pack. Does the 100oz version of the Thermobak fit into the Eagle bags internal hydration systems compartment ? I believe the 70oz fits well but I am unsure whether the bigger one fits as well.
The idea is to purchase a system that works together and independently so all info is welcome. I would prefer the 100oz Thermobak because it is easier to have a lot of water than not to have enough of it.
Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:37:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.119.78)
Mike
Are the Black Hills 190's you speak of, the factory ammo they sell?
THANKS to every one that got me hooked up with George. Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:38:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
199.120.66.111)
Some thoughts on the Chandler Sniper taken from my recent response to a discussion group thread at another site. I'm thankful we have many choices out there. For what it's worth, here's the background on my choice. I was considering offering an advance apology for this tome, but since I don't post that often, I'll consider this making up for lost time.
1. The Chandler Sniper is a mission-specific weapon. It is designed and built to be "grunt proof" (and beyond) while maintaining sub-MOA accuracy in extremely abusive, real-world field conditions. (Much better accuracy is possible in the hands of a well-trained shooter.) The Chandler has been dropped hard from several feet off the ground, knocked against trees, scope-banged and abused in other ways without loss of zero and accuracy. It will do this month after month and continue to perform out to a thousand without a hitch. Personally, I find that to be a confidence builder. For the LE sniper or other professional? I would say that benefit is priceless.
2. Having said everything in #1 above, what about the price? Outrageous? For the person who wants a rifle that is guaranteed to do all of the above and more, not really. Of course, my opinion may be discounted as hopelessly biased becaues I'm a Chandler owner, but hear me out. Building a Chandler with the above described features/capabilities is very labor intensive. You pay for that labor. The builders are carefully selected former Marine armorers who are very good at building ONE TYPE OF RIFLE.
3. To re-emphasize: the Chandler is a special-use weapon build to exceed commonly accepted specifications, including those of the Marine Corps as they apply to a sniper weapon system. It is NOT a benchrest rifle, hunting rifle or "everyday" tactical rifle. I say that because part of the problem "out there" is that anyone with the desire and some skill can put together a match barrel, custom stock, mil-dot scope and custom-bed action and call it/sell it as a "tactical rifle" or "sniper rifle." The difference in cost, value and performance lies in the design, function and purpose for which a rifle is built, not simply the action upon which it is based or other common feature.
4. Finally, why do I own a Chandler? Even though I'm not a military/law
enforcement professional, I enjoy owning and shooting a rifle that is of
exceptional quality and considered by many in the shooting law enforcement
and military professions to be the best OF ITS KIND. Pride of ownership
certainly is part of the equation. There are other outstanding rifles out
there; many cost less, a few cost in the same ball park. Do you need to
spend $5,000 for a quality rifle? No. Is it reasonable to spend that much
on what I've described? Obviously I believe so. Again, the difference is
design, labor investment and purpose/use. I don't believe there are many
builders out there who possess the extensive knowledge and skill required
to build a rifle that stands apart. I could have bought one of several
other tactical rifles for $2,000-$2,500, give or take some. But as a student
of military history and with an eye for the unique and exceptional, I chose
a Chandler. Whatever your decision, do your research, talk to a lot of
people and maintain an open mind and desire to learn. Having done that,
chances are your final decision will be much more gratifying.
Tim Crabb <tbcrabb@knology.net>
Columbus, GA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:59:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.214.37.144)
Before I post this I would like to say that this is not meant as a flame and that I do not own a custom built rifle (yet). In response to points 1 & 2 of your post:
1. The Chandler Sniper is a mission-specific weapon. It is designed and built to be "grunt proof" (and beyond) while maintaining sub-MOA accuracy in extremely abusive, real-world field conditions. (Much better accuracy is possible in the hands of a well-trained shooter.) The Chandler has been dropped hard from several feet off the ground, knocked against trees, scope-banged and abused in other ways without loss of zero and accuracy. It will do this month after month and continue to perform out to a thousand without a hitch. Personally, I find that to be a confidence builder. For the LE sniper or other professional? I would say that benefit is priceless.
The implication here is that Chandler is the only rifle builder that
has the knowledge, material and capability to produce such a weapon. I
agree that a weapon capable of this level of performance when ones life
is on the line is priceless, however I do not believe that this confidence
should lie within the name.
2. Having said everything in #1 above, what about the price? Outrageous? For the person who wants a rifle that is guaranteed to do all of the above and more, not really. Of course, my opinion may be discounted as hopelessly biased becaues I'm a Chandler owner, but hear me out. Building a Chandler with the above described features/capabilities is very labor intensive. You pay for that labor. The builders are carefully selected former Marine armorers who are very good at building ONE TYPE OF RIFLE.
I agree that this process is very labor intensive and that the labor commands a certain price, but again the implication is that Chandler's time is worth more than that of other builder of equal quality rifles. This said, go back to the outsourcing issue. What about the rifle builder that builds a rifle of equal quality and invests his own blood, sweat and tears in every aspect of the project from beginning to end?
I am not saying that one rifle is better than another, but if you have $5,000 to spend on a rifle and can get a rifle of equal quality for ..lets say...$2,500, wouldn't you rather do this and then use the other $2,500 for ammo?
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 00:56:01 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.91.132.221)
There is no "magic formula" to a fine tactical rifle, and no "lock" on the ability to build them... and there are many super 'smiths that will build an M40, or one of the varients, that is cosmetically, and machanically equal to chandler's gun.
If you want a "Name Brand" for statis reasons, then go for it, and
enjoy the hell out of it... but don't for a minute, think your stick is
somehow superior to someone else's...
... fine barrels, action preping, bedding, and a "kewl paint job"
are not secret, black magic, arts.
You can even be the sub-contractor of your own M40, have each aspect
of the gun done by the best in the business (as chandler does) AT THAT
PART or the process...
... and do it as well, and it will look as "Kewl", shoot as well,
and be as "grunt proof" as chandler's guns... and you will have $2,500
to $3,000 left over to play with.
"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 01:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.95)
GO AHEAD AND TAKE A SHOT AT ANOTHER SLING AND MILDOT MASTER.
WHEN: NOW
HOW LONG: ......UNKNOWN
WHAT TO DO: SEND AN EMAIL TO: freebee20010709@aspiringtech.net
Same as before....
Getting the family unpacked....
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <freebee20010709@aspiringtech.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 03:13:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
Ken - please enter me in any free drawings for the next week or so, I am expecting my new Autuaga rifle from Rusty in a couple of weeks and it will need a sling. Can one ever have too many mildot masters?
Take care
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 03:26:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.182.48.47)
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 05:05:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.26.60.64)
Last night Andy and I packed up and went to our range to ring some
steel after dinner. We had walked back to the 250 yard position and set
our stuff down. When we looked back at our targets there was someone walking
along the top of the berm behind the targets. We picked up our stuff and
went back to the target line. The fellow was one of the many Mexican field
hands that work in the area and he was fishing in the pond behind the berm.
I told Andy that this was probably the fellow's sole relaxation after a
long day in the fields and that we could always shoot another time so we
quietly left.
In the future we will be posting a "sandwich board" sign in the
laneway leading to the pond with a Warning and a keep out message. We will
also be installing our range flag at the end of the laneway.
We are willing to share "our spot" but have to be so careful. This
was a reminder to always do a detailed search down range every time before
shooting. Shooting is a lot of fun but we've always got to remain diligent
because one accident or even a close call would ruin it forever.
Be careful out there guys.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 12:11:50
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
I don't even use the heavy rings and bases that many do. I use the Leupold duel dovetail mounts and rings and have never had any problems. I don't swap scopes around that often so I have no need for a quick detatch feature, more money in my pocket for ammo.
The only thing that you would have that I don't that may break on mine would be the heavy steel trigger guard and I could put one on for a couple of hundred dollars. (If I was worried about it)
The abuse you talk about would damage the scope more than the rifle. I have always felt the scope is the weak link in the tactical rilfe system. Unless you have the add on metal sights you still have a $5000.00 stick if the scope gets broke. I, on the other hand, only have a $1500 one.
I won't argue that Chandler doesn't build a great rifle but is it better than any of mine?? If I put a steel trigger guard on mine I would put it up against yours anyday in all of your tests. My 308 with the Pac Nor barrel will shoot .25 groups with a target scope and probably better with a better shooter. But then I don't use a target scope I use the LR for tactical shooting so I am back to around a .5 group but thats still better than it needs to be.
I will close by saying that I was hunting coyotes 2 years ago and
took a nasty fall on frozen ground and went head first into the ground
on top of my rifle, it hit on the scope (a 3.5x10LR) hard enough to ruin
the elevation knob and it was only off about 6" to the left when I fired
it for zero. I think that says a lot for the rings and bases when 200lbs
slams it into the frozen ground and it still holds a close zero. Just my
opinon and you know what they say about those.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 13:32:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
I am aware that the McMillan standards are the M40A1-A4, but does anyone have any experience with the McHale stock? What are the opinions of the use of this stock on a tactical rifle? Thanks.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 13:36:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.173.17.78)
I saw the Valtro at the last two SHOT shows and was also very impressed. Glad to see they are finally available.
Thanks
Ned
www.m-guns.com
Ned <metalmaster@m-guns.com>
3R, MI, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 13:51:30 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.89.137.5)
On the McHale stoick. I had one on a Remington 700 SA and liked it. Similar feel to the HS Stock.
On Chandler rifles. I have seen the work it is outstanding but the cost does not seem to be justified, to me. Using a Rolex for comparison will not work. The Chandler starts out as a Remington just like all the others. It uses the same parts as the others and is put together in the same fashion with the same techniques and equipment by people trained at the same place, capable of the same quality, so why does it cost more? Because people will pay it. They are without a doubt a great rifle but no better than a Rice or Gardner, or several others, built weapon and cost twice as much. This is not to flame Chandler they are doing fine with huge back log of weapons to be made. By the way the Rolex costs 1.5 times what a Omega does and the Omega is a better watch. I own an Omega Semper Fi
Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 14:03:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.37)
Only about half my posts are being accepted by the list. The other half indicated "you are not set up to post". Anyone else experiencing this frustrating phenomena?
On Chandler Rifles...I love mine. Was it worth it? I think so, which in the final analysis is what really counts. Half the fun was working with Norm Jr. as the project progressed.
I'm sure that George and Jerry build fine rifles and one is in my future, I'm sure. For tactical rifles, I have my Chandler Gun, My M40A1 clone...nicely done by a local hi-power gunsmith, and my Geoff Corn M25. I'm pleased with all of them.
Other projects...I'm building a high grade .284 Winchester on a custom Mexican Mauser. Metal work and Krieger barrel, Blackburn bottom metal and trigger. English walnut stock that I'm stocking myself. I'll have about $2K in the whole thing. If I had a name stockmaker do it I'd have been looking at $5K because of the labor intensive stocking and checkering process. Worth it? Again, only you can decide. My firearms are "special" and add to the experience and joy of the hunt...well worth it!
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 14:25:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.126)
Last chance for anyone who wants to look it over and pitch in their two cents before I send it to Marius.
Thanks to Kevin for contributing and I encourage folks to pitch in so we get a better product on the board.
Besides, I dont know how to "uze spellchek."
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 14:29:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)
I think what we are seeing is the same thing that happened first with custom M1911s and with MP5s after 1986. Too many buyers willing to pay top dollar for a scarce resource. Additionally if you calculate into the picture LE agencies that have lots of confiscated narco dollars that can ONLY be used for equipment purchases and you end up with $5k rifles with FACTORY Remington 700 receivers.
If you think about: If there were no buyers for $5k rifles, there would be no manufacturers for them. The buyer is the reason for these prices, not the manufacturers.
Also some people just have to have the TOP-DOLLAR tool because they want to buy their way above the rest of the group with their TOYS. What I mean is that it is often (not allways) the same phenomen as with cars. People buy Corvettes just to be able to show off their friends they "made it". Some tactical shooters buy the most expensive toys, not because they need it, but because they can AFFORD it. I have even heard that some people buy Chandler rifles as an investment. I think that is really stupid, but then again some people buy Porsches for the same reasons. Both are manufactured and designed to be used HARD. Anything else is stupid.
Chandler rifles are definately good rifles but I do not really think
they are worth the extra expense above what a decent Jerry Rice or Gardner
rifle costs.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 16:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.58.22.7)
On the subject of custom guns v "off the shelf" ones.
When you get a custom gun you are getting:
1. A guarantee of accuracy.
2. Someone to cry too when the gun doesn't shoot like you think
it should.
3. A gun built to your specs.
When you buy an off the shelf you get:
1. No guarantee of accuracy.
2. A 20 year old sales clerk at the Wal-Mart or if you are lucky
a saleman at a gun store who will look at you crazy when you complain that
your Savage 110 won't hold 1 moa.
3. A base of which to spend money on to get where you want to be
( a reciever on which to put on a new trigger, barrel, stock, etc).
Bottom line is if you have the money to buy a custom gun then get one. If you can't afford it then buy a VS and a shit load of ammo.
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 16:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.214.53.26)
Pat the 6.5-06 is great. I've only had the chance to shoot to 350
yards lately but I'm getting about 1 - 1.25 inch 5 shot groups at 300 yds
out of that Hart 21" heavy fluted barrel. This rifle seems to like 142
MK's, with 49.1 gr IMR 4350, Fed210M primers and I've been using Rem 25-06
nickel cases necked up (got a good deal on a 1000, not really a big Rem
case fan). I put a US Optics 10x SN6 on it with their rings and base that
was built for the action. I estimated about 2750 - 2800 fps out of the
short barrel but I believe it's closer to 2900 based on the MOA adjustments
from 100 - 300 yds. Appears to need about .75 MOA less than generated by
my computer so it must be a little faster. The whole package with a McHale
fully adjustible stock and scope weighs in at about 11 1/2 lbs. I might
leave the 300 WM home and take this one to the Sniper Paradise match down
in Texas come this Oct. It's got a nice balance to it.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 17:59:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 19:58:38 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.243.125.148)
Only some posts accepted? FUNNY! You sure your capitalisation is what it should be? Remember that Ken wrote that part of the script to be case sensitive. Thus {wsaa@proaxis.com} is NOT the same as {Wsaa@proaxis.com}. Ditto with the password. That is the only thing I can think of. Ken, you have any other thoughts?
Jefe,
Don't waste any time, do you! I just luv that. Don't worry about
the "uze spellchek" - Roger's got nothing to do in any case! :-)
Roger, hope you're reading this and seeing something else is coming your way shortly, apart from those two I just sent ya!
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:12:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.28)
Personally I have put my rifle together over the years, from a VS, and it's run me under $2K. I have a McMillan A-2 stock bedded by McMillan, all the custom work done on the action by Jeff Hicks formally of Answer Products, a SS Lothar Walther barrel, a Remington trigger adjusted to a crisp and clean 2.5lbs and a steel trigger guard. The rifle shoots consistant .25 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I had to do it this way because of lack of funds but if I was going to just go buy a custom I would go with a Gardner or Rice. I can't see spending that much on a Chandler. Actually my friend Steve is in this position now and we were looking for a good custom 300WM for him. He looked at the Chandlers and almost fell off his seat. He's going to be going with George Gardner when his funds come around.
Now onto a new question. I have a friend, actually the above mentioned Steve, that's into reenactments for WWII. He would like to reload blanks for his 30-06 Garand. Anyone know where to get blank dies or if there's any trick? Also he's going to reload shotgun blanks, any help there would be appreciated. Thanks.
Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:19:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.199.173)
I need some input - good, bad or indifferent. Take a look at peteR's
Rem700 update article. I'm playing a bit with style sheets and seeing
if I can:
When you mail me your comments (rather in my mail than here, since it is not quite relevant to discussions - I'll post the consolidated replies if you guys want), please tell me:
Thanks for the help.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
155.239.180.28)
I've been monitoring the situation over the last few days, so I've seen it coming. Got the two you just sent. Will start on them tonight.
Keep the articles coming, fellas!
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:29:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.160.1.81)
Anybody got a pet load for an AR15 with a shorty upper? I think it
should hold 2 moa at 300yds. Barrel is a 1/9 Bushmaster. Bought some Sierra
69gr match, Hornady 52gr match, and Hornady VMax60gr ballistic tip. Powder
on hand is Hogdon BLC-2, Varget, Vitta Vori N140, Win748, and IMR4895.
Gonna use it for 3 Gun Matches. Max distance is under 300yds. Targets
are steel gongs about 10" in diameter.
I tried my DCM load in it, but no luck. The 75gr bullets are just
too heavy for the 1/9 shorty ak upper.
55gr ball is real good up close, but at 300yds it is not working
all that good. I can't use SS109 at the matches. Too bad, it works pretty
good.
Would I spend the money for a custom Tactical Rifle? Sure. It beats
spending money on a cheap rifle to make it shoot like a good custom rifle.
Spend the bucks one time on the rifle, and then you don't have worry about
what to buy next.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back , KY, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:29:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.12.106.33)
You are correct. There has been no discussion whatsoever about buying an "off the shelf" rifle versus a custom.
Bill B.,
If the SS109 works, just pull the bullet and replace it with something comparable that is legal. I know a few guys that shoot service rifle that like to shoot M852. They pull the bullets remove .5gr of powder and reseat the bullet. They say that this is more accurate than anything they can reload.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:47:29 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.173.17.78)
thanks
Shooter <biggun762@hotmail.com>
bean, town, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 21:00:40 (ZULU) (your host
address: 167.234.101.150)
Just a note to thank you for keeping Ken out of trouble while I was off eating sushi. The Rock was actually fun, got my scuba certification thanks to Gunny Legowski, spent New Year's in Ropungi and got to Korea for a shopping trip ( any one need a mink blanket?)
I'm back now and hope to get out to some of the matches.
Domo Arigato gozaimasu
Kim
Kim Hunter (The Major) <kim@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 01:21:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
Okay gang ---- we have a winner here... number 23 was picked (by the Major) .... Number 23 points to Kevin Mussack's entry...
Congratulations Kevin!...
Kevin... please forward your shipping info to me - I will notify the respective vendors:
Mildot Enterprises (Bruce Robinson) http://www.mildot.com
Tactical Intervention Specialists (Mike Miller) http://www.tacticalintervention.com
thanks all!
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 01:34:12 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
Two Shoes
Dos Zapatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 01:55:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.163)
If we are all done "pissing in each others oatmeal" over this custom rifle thing can we move on...? Oh, let's add factory rifles to the list, too.
Let's face it, 99% of us could live with the straight factory 700 PSS or Winch 70 Stealth. Good Luppie mounts and scopes complete the vision.
Very few of us need a "hardened" rifle. Most are stuck with what is issued and will live with it. The police marksman certainly can.
Marines and other services have other mission requirements, that cops don't generally have, making the equipment requirements different. Still, I'll bet the PSS/Stealth package would work for most applications.
We all fantasize about the 1000 yard shot, but in reality is it's rare, and even in the event of a superb marksman the shot requires a bit of luck. We are getting entirely to wrapped up in "what if's" rather than reality.
Still, the beauty is that we have choices. Something most cops and service members don't have...consider yourself to be lucky that you are better armed than most and live in a country where you can still exercise that choice...
Hey! How about that Babylonian tuperware!
Semper Fi,
Wes
P.S. Who's still wearing his Seiko Divers watch...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 02:21:42 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.46)
I bought an early model PSS, After a few years, I had Tac-Ord customize it and got fitted with new glass. Hence the damn near $5k rifle. The cost is well justified. Tac-ord, Jerry Rice, and others will make you whatever you want, however outlandish. Save the duckey-bones and get a custom gun.
In the Quantico Va Area, any good places to shoot? Ken H., I think I asked you this before, too many malt inflicted braincell deaths, I forgot what you mentioned.
Thanks and Semper Fi
Lieuten-a-date Kushnir
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
The Big Suck, Quantico, Va., USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 02:23:51
(ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.85.1)
What's wrong with Seiko divers watches?
Kush
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Q-town, Va, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 02:25:53 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.25.85.1)
Questions night for me.........sorry
Went through this months Roster, and either am missing it, or it's
somewhere else.
Someone, posted about a spotting scope that was supposed to be the
cat's meeow...
It was a different brand than I had ever heard of or seen.....
If someone remembers that scope, and what the name is, and or where
to get them, pls hit me offline.
Gray matter challenged tonight.
Thanks
Two Shoes
Dos Zapatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 03:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.105.179)
Thanks for any input.
Gunny <biggun762@hotmail.com>
bean, town, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 04:13:31 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.54.76.172)
Dustin
Dustin <dustinsmart@hotmail.com>
College Station, TX, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 05:37:37 (ZULU)
(your host address: 129.109.166.146)
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 06:03:50 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.243.125.67)
Just saw your post asking about 30-06 blank dies. If you read my post following yours you'll see a link to peteR's article where he discusses getting dies from loading his own blanks. C-H4 or something like that - can't remember and too lazy to look.
Or just click here and go read it.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 06:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
196.25.27.66)
Time for PT.....
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 08:37:13
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.168)
Welcome Home!
I have heard a REALLY good .22 Rimfire range opened somewhere in
the Nokesville,VA. Have you heard about it??????????
OOOOOPs! ;-)
Ducking from HEAVY incoming fire, in no rain today
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 10:09:10 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.102.32)
Assuming speed of target remains constant and we are NOT factoring for any wind.
If my lead on the target is 2" at 100 yds, does the lead remain the
same at 600 yds or is this an MOA angle that becomes 12" at 600 yds. Also
do we need to add anything for Time of Flight at 600 yds. I usually just
SWAG it on this and hope for the hit.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:01:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
It's all about time-of-flight and target speed (leaving the wind factor out of the equation). (Target speed in FPS) * 12 * time of flight (in seconds) = lead value (in inches).
1 MPH = 1.466 Feet per second or 17.592 Inches per second
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:20:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.158.166.157)
Lead also depends on whether or not you're going to shoot leading edge or center mass. To shoot leading edge you'll need to subtract the desired depth into the target from the calculated lead.
For example:
A 3 mph mover is going about 4.4 FPS (52.8 inches)
A 168 30 caliber bullet @ 2650 fps will take about .25 second to
get to 200 yards.
Lead would be about 13 inches.
To shoot center mass you lead the desired POI by 13 inches.
To shoot leading edge you need to subtract the distance from the leading edge to the desired POI within the target or you'll be shooting his buttons off. For a 12 inch thick target area I'd subtract 6 inches from the lead to get a final lead value of 7 inches.
I think I have this correct, someone straighten me out if I'm wrong.
Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:37:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 131.158.166.157)
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:40:32 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Main reason I'm posting is because I wanted to include a world class custom smith that gets little or no mention here. Terry Cross at KMW should not be left out of your short list of possible builders.
He is the same guy that designed and sells the Pod-Loc seen else where on this site but his main business is custom bolt gun work. The first work I saw from him was on a U.S.Marshals S.O.G. Department rifle. It was a Rem 40X .308 that had been stocked, barreled and hardened. The detail work on the rifle was outstanding and the rifle was shooting bug holes with Fed.Match. We have since had a total of seven rifles built by KMW and he will continue to get our business. It takes a while to get but he stays in touch on the project and it is very worth while when it falls out of the UPS truck. We have Chandlers, TBA and several other quality guns in our area and his is at least as good as theirs.
He keeps a backlog of work and will not let a rifle leave his shop until he has done the initial break-in and is satisfied with several consecutive groups. He has several pages of customer references complete with contact information for each. He is also one of us. By that, I mean he actually gets out and walks the walk. I haven't talked to him since the event but I was told he and his team mate took first place at the North American Sniper Championship in February. Both were shooting KMW rifles during the 4 day event.
Sorry for the spew. I don't owe this guy anything except my honest opinion. We are a thousand miles from him and he always treats us with honesty, enthusiasm and professionalism. I see him post here occaisionally and he doesn't blow his own horn. Knowing him, he never will either. Just wanted to pass on our experience with a shop that has several very happy customers many miles from his shop. ***maybe I'll get a cool KMW shirt if he sees this!**
Good Day.
Tom
Tom <Steelpl8t@aol.com>
Tacoma area, WA, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:59:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.179)
First let me say I have a weakness for custom 1911s, so we know I'm not right in the head..
Have shot the Storm match against some pretty good folks with some mighty expensive gear [some provided by our tax money] for the last three years...I shot a factory, off the shelf rifle with good optics and a LOT of boolits through it. Didn't embarass[sp?] myself one bit. Was looking forward to this years match, but I guess it's history. Point is, as much as I'd like to have a custom sniper rifle, I'd rather spend the $s on ammo and travelling to shoot Praire dogs etc.. I think, for me, the time behind the gun is more important than which gun I'm behind..
Got to shoot a SAKO TRG42 in 338 Lapua mag. friday and Sat..It shot
in the .3s out to 300[all we had] and with the muzzle brake was very pleasant
to shoot..
outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 19:09:53 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.92.148.172)
Thanks, I will pull down some SS109, remove .5 of powder, and seat
some 69gr Sierras.
I did go to the range today and shot some 52gr BTHP Match out of
it. Had it loaded up to about 3000 fps. It Shot MOA. This is likely the
keeper load for now. Not bad with a 14.5" barrel, and ACOG Reflex sight.
You all see where SMTC is hosting a Long Range Varmint Hunters class
in Sept? Check out their website for details.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, ky, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 20:11:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.153)
If you like the people on instant mesenger that have had to put up with Ken can get together with you and fill you in on the REAL stories from the last months ;)
Bribery and extortion, I LOVE the concepts! Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 20:50:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.50.55.203)
Try also to pull the SS109 bullets and replace them with the 60 gr VMax keeping the same powder charge. Less work!
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 21:08:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.173.17.78)
I've seen that the general concensus of the Roster is that a 175grn
Match King at 2675fps does pretty good with the 30-06 cam on a Leupold
M3 type glass. My question is this: Would a 180grn Match King at the prescribed
2700fps match the trajectory of the cam better? Just wondering as I'm a
new M3 user and want to know.
Thanks.
Semper Fi
Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 23:25:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.205.61)
go to : http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/Ballistics308.htm
and snoop a bit for data.
Theres more, but I can't remember where its at...................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Wheezing & Geezing in Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, July 12,
2001 at 10:06:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.39)
Great site. I've been lurking a long time but this is my first post.
I was a usmc sgt (0311) and rifle range coach but I'm pretty inexperienced
in shooting w/ a scoped precision rifle. So I've got a newbie question.....
I was in the desert in eastern WA a couple of weeks ago, shooting
my Rem PSS .308. It's scoped w/ a Springfield Armory Gov't Model (1st gen)
4.5x14x56. (I know, I know...I'm saving up for Loopy...)
Ambient temp= 100 F, wind= f.v. 3mph, sunny, range was 250 yds.
The mirage was really kicking my butt, making it difficult to focus
on the tgt. I noticed, though, that the mirage through my Steiner
7x50 binos was not nearly so visible. (The barrel was cold, and
the scope was set on 7x, same as the binos). Now, I know there's a big
difference in the quality of the two optics, but don't understand why it
would be manifested in this way. Can anyone advise why?
Also, has anyone had any experience with Iron Brigade Armory's PSS Tune-Up package? Seems like it would be a good deal...
Sorry for such a long post....thanks in advance for any advice.
Semper Fi
Justin Reese <WaveManMES@netscape.net>
Muncie, IN, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:13:06 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.43.60.55)
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:21:46
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Semper Fi
Justin Reese <WaveManMES@netscape.net>
Muncie, IN, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:48:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.43.60.55)
First... mirage is more serious in optical scopes with large objective
lenses.
... and, Second, it is less in binoculars than a single scope of
the same dimensions.
In bins... the brain takes the "best" image at that moment, and processes
it.
Because the optical paths are not the same, the amount of mirage
at any moment is not the same, so the brain will constantly be processing
both images, and making the best out what it gets from both.
If you are in the same conditions, and close one eye, the mirage
will seem to get worse.
The larger the front objective, the worse the mirage... it you take a piece of cardboard with a 1" hole in it, and place it in front of the "Gen One"... you will see the mirage effects diminish substantially.
Lupita used to make screw in "apertures" that went in the front of
the scope... each had a different sized hole in it... but people didn't
understand how to use them, so they were discontinued.
"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:54:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.9)
Looks like Wyoming and the D&L shoot will be a go for me this
year again I found a partner. I nearly got to shoot with and "OLD" contibuter
that hasn't been around in a long time Pat L. But we just got hooked up
a little late.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 20:33:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Justin asked about the Chandler tune up package for the PSS...
Undoubtedly, top drawer, like most of their work...spendy.
First, most of the PSS's shoot pretty well out of the box. Better than we can, in most cases. Unless you're going to trash that shitty palm swell PSS stock for a McMillan I wouldn't do it.
Better yet, have George Gardner or Jerry Rice take the gun and restock it and work it over if you want. Much cheaper. Buy the Loopie scope with the remainder
If it were me, I'd get the new scope, invest in training, smile and be happy until you feel you need better equipment.
Semper Fi,
Wes Howe
(2502/1302)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 20:40:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.60)
I know that for factory loaded match ammo, the Fed GMM (168 or 175) appears to be the default champion.
Black Hills also makes a BTHP match load in both 168 and 175 also. Does anybody have any experience, good or bad, with this stuff? Price wise, they seem to be comparable.
I guess the proof's in the x-ring. Any users?
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 23:33:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.195.37)
Are you incognito?
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 23:39:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.195.37)
I've shot a fair bit of both Fed GM and BH stuff, and I prefer the
BH. It seems more consistent out of my rifles. Plus, I can get it cheaper
than I can Fed GM. Try Georgia Precision if you don't have a local discount
hook-up. They've got the best price on BH .308 168/175gr that I've been
able to find. Click my name to go to thier BH ammo page.
Roger
C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 00:05:43 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.42.230)
Good luck.
5db <info@accu-shot.com>
Wichita, Ks, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 02:53:21 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.236.19.188)
Undude, Where can I pick up a fastex buckle for 1.5 in webbing? I lost the male half of the belt buckel on my camelbak HAWG and camelbak has not responded to my e-mails.
Thanks a million,
Chad's Out!
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 03:36:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.236.19.154)
The H&S stocked Remingtons suffer from a few easily corrected problems. The most serious is barrel slap on the forend. Disassemble the rifle, removing the action from the stock. Inspect the inside of the barrel channel at the front of the stock. There will be a slick burnished area. That is the portion of the stock that is striking the barrel when the rifle is fired. Using coarse sandpaper, a rasp or similar tool, take about 10-15 thou off the bottom of the barrel channel in the area of the slap.
While disassembled, closely inspect the aluminum bedding block for any imperfections that may prevent the receiver from bottoming out evenly on the block. HS Precision does a superb job on their stocks but mass produced products will not one size fits all. Remove any paint, epoxy oooze, aluminum burrs etc from the block area. Do not worry, you are not going to hurt it by cleaning it up. Closely inspect the recoil lug area, making sure that the lug will seat at 90 degrees and that the recess is deep enough for the lug to bottom out. If the recess is too shallow, cut an eight of an inch out of the bottom with a mill or Dremel. On about half the rifles inspected, I have noticed that the guard bolts are impacting the inside of the bedding block holes. If this is happening to your rifle, you will see the concentric ring marks of the bolt thread pattern on the inside on the guard bolt holes, not to be confused with machining marks. They are very distinct and appear almost as knurling. Drill the guard holes out a few thousandths or 1/16 inch if easier. Replace the factory bolts with hex socket head bolts and torque the front to 65 inch pounds. Rear bolt from 50-65 inch-pounds. Experiment with the torque. You do not want to inadvertently bend the action in the stock. Most people just wind them in to 65 and leave em. Try changing the torque on the rear action bolt and test groups.
To minimize the bending moment, consider bedding the action. It is not hard if you pay attention to what you are doing and prepare the stock properly. Use MarineTex, Steel Bed, Steel or Titanium Devcon etc.
Nothing is going to fix that long POS throat except having someone
pull the tube and rechamber it. If you are going to spend that kind of
money, buy a good barrel and get the whole chalupa.
Mark. I'm with you brother, only in reverse. I tried to sell a scope. Had the buyer all lined up and everything when the Luscious Colonel asked me why there was a Mark 4 sitting on the desk. I should have been more alert by the tone but preoccupied, I innocently said, Someone needs it. It's just sitting in the safe so I'm going to sell it to him. BOOOM! "That is not what is going to happen honey." After a rather heated argument, the bottom line is I can pretty much buy anything I want. I just can't sell it afterward! I honestly don't know how their minds work. Patrick, I am very sorry.
Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater , FL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 04:36:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.26.65.148)
Rich asked about a Winch M70 Stealth in .223. LOVE mine. Was able
to do a credible trigger adjustment following patron 'lito's instructions.
Darn thing shoots about 1/2 MOA with 69 gr. Sierra MK's.
It's a keeper. Doesn't have that god awful palm swell of the PSS
either!
The PSS upgrades...as mentioned can be done by yourself, if handy. I'd go that route, first.
Just back from the range. Took my M25 and M40A1 clone. Both shot magnificantly! I shot Berger 190's and Sierra 175's in the bolt gun. Just ragged clusters at 100 yards as we were zeroing and testing this evening.
Used 175's that I loaded on the Dillon 550 B, after match prepping the LC Match brass. Damn load looks to shoot 5/8" out of the M25. The Dillon DOES load good ammo! Kewl...looks like I'm going to go through quite a bit of it in the near future.
All for now, getting late, and it's back to the job hunt tomorrow.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 05:04:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 198.145.248.72)
Semper Fi
Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 05:16:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.204)
You may want to be careful with torques that high on any rifle without a steel floor plate and pillar bedding. There is a posibility of bending or breaking or wearing away the bearing surface under action screws. I don't know for sure.
Just a cautionary note.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 11:53:07
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
I've been lurking for some time, this is my first post.
Does anyone have experience of the Lapua Scenar bullets in 155gr and 167gr. I'm particularly looking for loads using Varget or N140. Bullets will be in 308 Lapua cases and fired from a Rem VSSF.
Any observations on how these bullets compare to Match Kings?
Regards
Ray
Ray Smith <rayokyah@omantel.net.om>
Muscat, Oman - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 11:53:22 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.58.12.44)
My one old PSS is on its 3rd barrel and still going and the floor
plate is still the original. With that said your right to caution them
but if everything is square it won't hurt to tighten them down.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 13:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.3)
Reference Lapua ammo
I have been using 44 grains of N140 behind the 167 Scenar and 170 gr lockbase. 167 Scenar is in the old red box factory loads while the 170 is in the new Lupua blue box loads. I use exclusively the 170 gr and have been very happy with it in my Accuracy International AW. I used to use 168 Sierras but switched to the 170 gr. No reason based on performance. I have not noticed any performance difference but I just like the lapua. I try to match the factory load and have achieve excellent results. The N140 is very consistant.
Either on will serve you well. The lapua brass is excellent quality. Hold onto them. Give me a shout if you have any questions. Thanks
Jeff in Canada
JC Wilson <blackhawk@mb.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 13:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.200.254.110)
-Justin
Justin Reese <WaveManMES@netscape.net>
Muncie, IN, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 16:16:46 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.43.60.71)
I was wandering around the net today and found a picture of Andy and me at SMTC. Kewl!
http://www.stormmountain.com/photos.html
We're the (LRR2 Alternate Position) picture.
Sorry, no faces shown.....OPSEC you know.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 18:01:20
(ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Check out the review on US Optics by Mike Miller. There is a phone number at the end of the review to contact US Optics. I would call and order a catalog. Email me if you want to. See you next week.
Have a good night at the FD.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback , KY, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 20:34:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.204.54)
Good timing on the subject! Just wrote an article for the DR on Info Gathering and touched on that a bit with the dead drop issue. I will email you a draft and would appreciate your thoughts (thanks for "volunteering!").
A picture is worth a thousand words and cameras make better pictures than I can and you are dead on about digital dissemination.
The only catch is "IF your unit has the time and capabilities to process it." And picking up info at dead drops is risky and hard to coordinate since you are usually well forward of the FFU. However, its very useful if it can be done.
We used spent star cluster tubes to store the notes in and a zip loc although the tube itself did well without the plastic bag.
The cameras we had were the "fire and forget" type and waterproof. MAKE SURE TO DISABLE THE FLASH! We painted the camo and they really paid off for us. We tried them with spotting scopes and NVDs pushed up against the lens and got some decent though not spectacular results. We were able to get Infra Red film through the S2 for live missions although I never once got to see how they came out. They just kept telling me how expensive it was.
Good Post! Look forward to your comments on the article.
Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, July 13, 2001 at 22:58:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.24.67.66)
What's with that tripod in the picture? Assume its been modified to handle a gun stock?
BTW, how old is Andy? How long as he been shooting?
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:07:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.195.43)
Finally got to shoot the Rem 700P/.308 at 600 yards today (along with 200 and 300 yards).
I was using Fed GMM 175s with the 30-06 cam on the Loopy. Good, strong 15 MPH wind blowing left to right.
At each firing line, I dialed the range in, acquired the target, squeezed, BANG - on paper and in the black.
The guys I was with were amazed with the scope. They weren't familiar with the BDC thingy and thought it was the coolest thing they had ever seen. Dial the range, no counting (and forgetting) turret revolutions and you're on paper!
I gotta admit, I initially had some trepidations at the 600 yard line but it works.
The gun is box stock with the exception of a "X" trigger job. It's a good, solid, 1MOA shooter. Now I'll just shoot the barrel out before spending any $$$ on fancy upgrades.
Thanks for the cam hints and the trigger job instructions, "X".
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:30:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.195.43)
What kind of velocity expectations should I look for when fireing Federal GM 168's or Black Hills 168's through a quality 20" or 22" match barrel? Considering a somewhat lighter more compact rifle for use from 0 to 600 yards.
Any comments or opinions welcome.
Thanks.
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:32:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
4.22.166.169)
Thanks
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:32:33 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.243.125.130)
Andy is 15 now. That picture was taken on our second trip to SMTC
on his 13th birthday. The year prior he took Top Gun in LRR1. He's been
shooting since he was six. He underwent the usual progression form airgun
to .22RF to .223 to .308.
Now he's found out about girls so there are some conflicts in his
shooting schedule. It's a phase......
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:57:11
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.177)