July 2001

I think he can forget about having a 1000 yard range on 17+ acres of land. If it's only 1 acre wide (69 yards) and 17 long (1170+- yards)he'll make it but it'll be a little cramped.

I shoot on many farms in the Montgomery/Frederick county area. Give a shout e-mail and maybe we can hook-up for some shooting (500 to 600 yards).
 
 
 

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 00:40:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.126.27)

What type and thickness steel are you using in your targets?

Doc Holloway <docs@fidnet.com>
The Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 02:20:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.251.141.223)

My gong is 1-1/2" thick hot rolled plate by 9" diameter.
The rifle rounds crater the heck out of it but it's still there.
My larger target (in the shop) is 1/2" hot rolled and it too gets pretty beat up but it works. When this IPSC shaped target gets ruined I'm going to replace it with 3/8" armor plate. To the tune of $150 I'm not in a hurry. I think I can get this year out of the old steel before I've got to bite the bullet for the armor plate.

We took the laser with us today and my pace count is way off. The 500 yard firing point is only 458 yards. We fired at odd distances today because the gong is close to the ground and can get lost behind a slight roll in the field. Eventually the IPSC steel will be at 5 feet high and we'll be able to shoot from anywhere and still see it.

We must mow the grass on the bank because we can't see our misses. It's pretty frustrating to be all the way out and have one doubtful shot after another. The wind was gusting so the shooting was off and on.

Still working with the M3LR. It's not tracking exactly as I expected. Still too early to tell.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 04:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.63)

Drove down to Sunnyvale Rod and Gun for a day of shooting in the excellent weather. Was firing off a bipod when I noticed something that happened after I shot. The recoil would leave my sight picture to the left of where I was aiming. I'm guessing it's something in my technique, maybe not checking the natural point of aim. My buddy had the same problem, which was odd because he used to be a competition shooter.

Definitely a day to get out and send some rounds down range.

Semper Fi.

Alan
Alan <usmc308@hotmail.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 08:04:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.179.193.183)

Alan: Sight picture going to the left is the torque reaction of the rifle to the bullet moving through the barrel (being spun by rifling actually). Your bipod may not be directly under the rifle or it may be due to bounce. Only time I've noticed this (may not have been only time happened) was this week. I was using a flatbed trailer as a shooting position for 600 yard work. Think the recoil bounce from the 2 X 10's that make up the trailer bed may have had something to do with it.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 11:32:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

Two Shoes
Dos Zap
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 13:35:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.181)

I'd never shot from a bipod until I was a student at Badlands Tactical Training Facility during the monsoon that broke last year's 7+ month drought. Our bipods started sinking into the mud, so we craftily propped them on boards - and all of a sudden couldn't hit sh*t! Back to the mud, and all was rosy.

This may not be definitive (I later pulled off some fancy shots from the training tower's wooden deck), but I'd be careful about hard-surfaced firing positions.

Difficult shots are not improved by "Bipod-Bounce."
 
 
 

Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
KC, MO, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 13:49:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.23.165.4)

Test the Black Hills moly coated 6.5 X .284 ammo yesterday, again. First groups were on the order of 3" then opened to 6", at 600 yards. Not bad, but still the same thing I see at 100 yards. The first groups are good, but after that things open up. Have come to the conclusion that the gun just doesn't like moly...

This was done after properly breaking in and cleaning the rifle per Jeff Hoffman's (Black Hills Ammo Pres.) instructions. Am going back to non-moly and STAYING THERE!

The new Geoff Corn M25 shot incredibly! It loves 175 gr. Sierra's (Black Hills factory load) and chronographed an honest 2612 FPS. Now to get the proper cam and hand loads developed and I'll be s******* in tall cotton!

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 15:49:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.96)

I must admit, you have lost me. I don't think I send those to you directly? Unless under another email address? I don't mind, and if you want you can contact me direct and I can add you - whether you get MAN/Magnum or not. I must admit, when doing that one, I was thinking about the guys here and what THEY do with a .308 - contemplated writing a letter to the editor.

For you others wondering what all this is about - I also translate the odd Afrikaans article in the local hunting/shooting magazine, making it available to foreign (outside RSA borders) readers for free.

So this is a little detour of the site's normal contents.

Marius
 

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 16:47:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.205)

From what I have seen and tried myself, this only occurs with Harris bipods. I myself use a Parker Hale and it's POI changes a bit when shooting from a hard surface, but the group size remains the same. The Harris equiped rifles I've shot were all over the place when shooting from a hard surface. My theory is this: I shoot the PH equiped weapon with the rifle pushed forward. Since the PH bipods have so much play, it'll allow the feet to remain in place, while the gun recoils, using the top of the bipod as sort of a hinge. The Harris' legs are dragged back since this bipod is as solid as it get's. On hard surfaces it starts to bounce.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Stefan
Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Behind my PC screen, Liking my Parker Hale more and more in, The Netherlands - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 19:00:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.46.159.37)

Yep....they bounce alright.

I've found that I shoot better with my bipod off the ground than I do off a bench. If this is because there is less bounce then so be it.

I've also discovered that I need to get some height to have a comfortable shooting position. This requires a longer extension of the Harris legs but if I lean into the rifle and "hold hard" I can still get good groups.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 19:15:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.177)

Not having been able to work at 600 yards in ten years or so, I'd like to think some of the results was skill.
 

WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Sunday, July 01, 2001 at 22:12:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

For what it's worth the 180 power points also outshoot the Federals by a slight but measurable margin, so much so that I've been buying them at $12.00 a box at Walmart and replacing the PP with 175 MK's for the downrange ballistics. Beats $25.00 a box for the GM. May be just this rifle, but they work for me.

Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upalnd, Ca, USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 01:20:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.157.43.148)

re;bouning bipod.

Try even and firm rearward pressure into the shoulder with the firing hand......don't drive the shoulder forward. As you do that, apply light/even/consistant/firm downward pressure with the cheek.

You'll be able to follow the longer shots all the way to the target.
Shoot off concrete and ya'll are on your own!

Mike
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 02:17:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.159.190.166)

Undude- I am still kicking and I have replaced my old sling with the one you sent me. I can see how you made it stronger. I checked it out on the range last month-will really work it out this month. Of course, no problems expected. The pack strap won't work out-the carrying of the rifle is wrong. I have an idea I will try out and get back to you. BTW- you should be getting a call/order from my state boys. They came to see me last week on some sniper stuff and they fell in love with your sling.

Rob Olive- if you don't mind I'll offer my two cents on the TAP ammo.
Absolutly love it. Look at the manual and order based on the performace there. I personally don't believe in 14" as a minimum penetration for rifle ammo, but that is just me. This is the important part about the TAP ammo- IMHO do not use the TAP 55 grain (we use the 60 grain). The reason being that there actualy are two different 55 grain TAP loads- one for Mil-spec guns, one is for others. You have to be very specific. The 223 spec rounds will not reliably function the 5.56 chambered rifles. Your Bushmasters are 5.56 chambered. I just think there are too many chances for Mr Murphy to screw thingsa up if you go with 55 grain ammo (especially if you do not order the ammo yourself!) The 60 grains work in every AR we have.
I recently switched to the NXS 3.5-15 x 50 scope you asked about. I like it better than my Leupold M1LR. My partner tried it out-his NXS scope is coming in next week to replace his Leupold. I like the focus, illuminated reticle and clarity better. My only real complaint is that the lit reticle can not be adjusted easily and it is a large scope. A smaller objective would have been perfect IMHO.
JUst FYI- I know of a sniper team that went through 4 of the new M1LR lit reticles recently-all burned out somehow. These were the new angled lit turret version. Our old straight lit turrets never gave any problems at all. Leupold did replace the scopes for them ASAP...
Feel free to email for anything I can help with.

oh yeah- WES!!! what about those thigh mag holders with kydex you were trying?

Take care- (you too Stan, wherever you are)
Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 03:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

I had the same problem several years ago when shooting in the Varmint Hunters match. The targets were fairly close togeather and after shooting you would look through the scope and you were about four targets off. If you didn't check the number you would shoot someone elses target. Trust me when I say that there were a lot of cross fires that day.

I attended a sniper school a short time after that match and when I read that part of the course was speed shooting with 5 rounds in something like 20sec. at a 1 inch paster. I thought there was no way this would happen with a 308 because of the time it took to get back on target after recoil.

When we went prone, I along with all the others, were told to "NOT" to lay off on the usual 45 degree angle that I had always used but to lay directly behind the rifle in a straight line, legs slightly spread with the insides of your feet flat on the ground, with the rifle tucked into the shoulder. at first I thought he was crazy and it was somewhat uncomfortable but after shooting it for awhile it became quite natural.

The important thing is that when the rifle recoils it goes straight up and does "NOT" twist off to the side and come down 4 targets off to the left like before. I was amazed at how fast a second shot could be made and how accurate it was. I shot some .6 groups in the speed shooting phase of the class to my utter amazement.

We were not on a hard surface but on the ground with the bipods so maybe it will make some difference if your on a hard surface but its worth a try. I know there was a world of difference from when I was shooting in the conventional prone position. Hope this helps!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 13:41:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Thats a new one on me and it makes sense. Thanks for the point!

I always made people use that position if possible, but it was because if you are laying in a straight line facing your target, you are harder to spot, harder to hit and can hide almost your entire body behind one sandbag.

I was always surprised how many people like the 45 degree angle position.

Thanks for an excellent point.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, July 02, 2001 at 14:54:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

The only problem with it is sometimes the colarbone can take a pounding with a hard kicker. He also showed a trick that makes a 7lb trigger feel like a 3lb trigger but I could not get used to it and all my triggers are at around 2.5lbs anyway. It does work though when using a real heavy trigger.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 16:08:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Recoil/bipods. The rifle doesn't know if it shooting off of a bipod or not so its not a bipod specific qiestion. It is a fundamentals of marksmanship question. It has to do with natural point of aim, position etc. The point was made about laying off at an angle being bad and that is a good point. When you get behind the gun set the gun down pointing at the target, stand behind it a few paces back and do a push up down to the gun. There should be a straignt line running down the bore into your shoulder and out the strongside leg. If you want to cock the strongside leg a little to get the diaphram off the deck then cock it A LITTLE. If you cant get comfortable laying directly behind the gun then you need to adjust LOP (Stock length), eye relief etc.

NATURAL POINT OF AIM. Put the rifle in your shoulder in firing position, close your eyes, relax and look through the scope. You should be close to the aiming area. If not adjust your body behind the gun and repeat. If you force the rifle onto target the rifle will recoil and come down where it wanted to be in the first place, if you force it back it will keep doing this. The technique of natural point of aim is the technique that allows a rifleman to fire a string of fire such as the rapid fire in a NRA highpower match without having to adjust after every shot.

17 acre 1000 yard range. DUDE!!! What about whats behind the range? You are accountable for every round that impacts out of your property. Unless you baffle the thing you are asking for trouble. I don't know if you guys know it or not I am now a Range Technical Team Advisor for the NRA and we get a lot of these types of questions.

If ya'll want more info contact NRA Range Serices at 703 267 1417. The National Association of Shooting Ranges has a website that you can use at www.rangeinfo.org.

Out here.
 

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 16:54:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.139)

Gooch - Hi Snot brother! - Post is good and right on. But I cock my leg alot and then rest on my left hip. This points my left foot towards the right foot and allows my observer to get right over my gun target line. Layng off at an angle causes recoil to knock the shooter off natural point of aim more and more with each shot. Once on a natural point of aim the gun falls back onto target with no effort and aids in rapid firing in a target rich environment. Gotta love those environments!

On hard surfaces with bipods, sew up a layer of closed cell foam and canvas. Softens without the bounce of rubber. again you must hold the weapon as if you own the sucker and not as if you are afraid you will break the dam thing. Your biggest enemies is a soft hold and off natural point of aim. Your biggest is natural point of aim. If that is off then you will torque, pogo off target, and then you must hunt the sucker down. About then the counter sniper will dust your noggin for you.

Hold Hard guys and watch the long range ranges. As Gooch stated, you must own the land that the round will fall on. Also remember that 99.999% of all sniper shots are taken at less then 600 meters. If you can ALWAYS hit at that range, given it is an unknown range when you fire, then you are doing very well indeed. Do not confuse the known distance with the unknown distance. Known is easy, unknown will kick your booty.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 17:41:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.81)

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 19:59:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.41)

Hi all !

I sent my scope to Leupold for warranty service as the illuminated reticle was "acting up" i.e. not all settings worked.

I sent it to them on Saturday and they received it on Tuesday. Leupold reinstalled the illumination tower for reasons unknown to me. Additionally they replaced a spring inside the tower. I believe the spring they replaced was the one that touches the battery from the side.

I received my scope back on Friday. They did forget to put the orginal battery to the box. I had used it only for maybe 15 minutes to make sure the scope was not working properly. So I had to buy a new battery for 5 bucks. All in all this warranty work including battery cost me around 34 USD and it took 6 days alltogether. I am pretty happy with Leupold although I would have liked to hear why the reinstalled the "illumination tower". My total cost is still below what a regular M3 without illumination would have cost me so I am not too mad about the extra costs.

This scope is the older version where illumination can be seen a little bit more horizontally than vertical in the lighted cross. I do not care about this minor difference at all.

BTW Has anybody tried to use the illuminated reticle scope with the front cover closed ? This is actually a bit like using the Aimpoint in rain. What I mean is that you shoot both eyes open. One eye sees the red reticle and the other one sees the target. Both "pictures" are superimposed in your brain. Why would somebody want to use this method ? If you do not want to advertise with your red reticle that you are around or if the objective is too blurry because of dirt or rain that you can not see through it. The method has been explained in "In Review" section that studied Aimpoin XD M/ML red dot sights. Of course this method works only maybe out to 300 meters/yards, but it is better than nothing if you need to shoot.

Hexa

PS My NF's lighted reticle is A LOT better than the Leupold reticle. If somebody could marry a fully lit reticle with M3 LR for a price below 1000 USD it would take the tactical scope market by storm. I know USO can deliver a scope just like that but that costs easily 1500 USD which is beyond my limits.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 20:53:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Mike asked about the hip pouch for M-14 mags. Sorry to disapoint you, Mike, but these are Kydex belt pouches that are designed for "Instructor" belts, etc. They can be made for any belts, if you have the specs.

Bravo and peteR have these for testing. I'm very happy with mine.

The company could probably do a version in a thigh rig if there is enough interest. Anyone need these for "SWAT Fashion Shows"?

Semper Fi,

Wes

P.S. So far there are only the four holders in exhistence...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 23:20:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.58)

Awhile back I wrote about my Rem 700 .308 barrel vertically vibrating when shooting off of a concrete bench. The gun was also torquing to the left a bit. This was off a Harris bipod.

The problem was shooting off a very solid rest (the bipod) off a very solid base (the concrete bench).

My solution was a small piece of scrap carpet under the bipod legs to cushion them from the concrete. Works wonders.

And I've been experimenting with my prone position - now basically directly behind the weapon in a straight line from me to the target. Minimal shift in sight picture after recoil. It can even be done from the bench position.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, July 02, 2001 at 23:24:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.162)

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 00:32:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.39)

On a big time plus issue Dan Ross and I have emailed back and forth several times. A good possibilty exists that I will have the proper mount and floor plate on the M40A3. I am working at getting an actual USMC M40A3 test weapon so atleast when I write about it I will have shot the hell out of one not just read about the specs and gave an opinion. I have been shooting the one made to USMC Specs for awhile now and can not say anything but good.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 01:08:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.34)

One question. Does anyone know where I can get a M700 clip slotted per USMC specs?

Semper Fi

Steve
 

Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 01:33:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.184)

A couple of things before I hit the rack.

Went to camp Butner this weekend to shoot the 1000 yd match. Before I get to the report of that I will address a couple of other things. I saw a couple examples of George Gardner's work there. Two words: polished and professional. Secondly, I met a couple of "confessed lurkers" there too. Nice guys. I hope you guys will come to more of these shoots. Ok to the Match report.

Chapter 1 The Savage/Tasco SS Rig goes to the 1000

What,you say?! Thats right Savage, Tasco and 1000 yards!!
Rifle - Savage 10FP .308
Scope - Tasco SS10x42
Load - Fed brass, CCI std primer, 44.3gr Varget, Sierra 175MK, seated to 2.815

Here are my scores with 200 being the max score per match. 20 shots per match, 10 points per shot.

Match 1 185-2
Match 2 183-2
Match 3 180-2

These were all shot on Saturday. I only had 70 rounds therefore I could not shoot Sunday. Only 70 rounds because of a couple of things. I had never shot past 600 yards and I had never shot this load. So, get on the line put 35 minutes of elevation on my 200 yard zero, cranked on 1.5 minutes of left wind ( I know you are supposed to hold for wind, I'm a rookie)pulled the trigger. Result, an 8 at 5 o'clock. I'm in the black and happy. I put on another 1/2 minute of elevation and I was there for the rest of the day. Only wind to contend with (which kicked my a**). Wind varied from approximately 2.5 minutes left to 1 minute right. Not too much I guess, but tough on a rookie.

To cut this off, I am happy with the results. This load worked great. The Savage shot great and the rounds were not "keyholing at the other end which was a surprise.
Now if we could get enough people to show interest in the HS Precision stock for the Savage, things would be perfect.

One last note, a couple of guys from Ft. Bragg were there, Huskins and Crawford (Rick, you know these guys?), what a treat to watch those guys keep them in the X-ring.

Semper Fi

Paul

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 02:04:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.132.179)

Semper Fi dog!!!!

Send you rifle back to GA. George can do it.

Good night all

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 02:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.132.179)

I've e-mailed George but haven't gotten a reply yet. Off this week for Independence Day?

The rifle I want clip slotted is the Old M40 in the wood stock with the green scope I showed you at the Match. That's all it needs to be correct.

Thst old stick shot pretty good, I was impressed.

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 03:18:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.198)

Hold Hard guys.

Rick
 
 

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 03:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.54)

Here is a patriotic quote given to me by one of my old professors whose father was killed in action on Iwo Jima. It reads:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Don't take this to mean that you have to have been, or be, in the military to be a good American. Just love this country and do what YOU can for it. That's all. And celebrate the Fourth of July. You're an American, it's Your Birthday too.

Semper Fi

2Lt. Stephen B. Field USMC
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 03:48:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.198)

-Any one know who services KOWA scopes. I have a TSN-1 that I don't think is quite up to spec. Could be the eyepiece that needs tweaked. Also, I have heard that someone does a complete waterproof job on them. Any help here?

-Is anyone still putting mil-dots into a spotting scope since Premier seems to have discontinued the loopy?

-mid range shooting question: I request opinions/ feedback of this recent experience....Rick? Gooch? anyone?
I recently shot a 600yd prone any-any (read psuedo F=Class) match with my "sort of" M40A1. Score was 191-3x, definitely got caught by wind let offs a couple times - not paying close enough attention. After the match I realized I shot it with Loopy set a 3.5x. Some were saying that I should have shot better 'cuz I shouldn't have seen any wobble, and others were amazed that I did that well. Me, I'm in between on my feelings here. I was using "left over" ammo from an M1a that had never been shot past 300yds out of that rifle, and barely gave moa groups at 300yds from it. FWIW I'm master class NRA hipower in service rifle.
 

Steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West , PA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 12:54:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

I cannot prove that I am getting a POI shift off of concrete, but I've got that nagging doubt everytime I am forced to set up on a chunk. What I have been doing is taking my Eagle padded scope cover and sitting the bipod legs in it. This gives me two layers of nylon and closed cell foam between the bipod feet and the concrete. I always have the PSC with me until the rifle is deployed so it isn't a problem slipping it into position. Even with this improvement, the rifle will still track poorly during recoil. Absolutely got to be on the gun properly every time (just like you guys say).

Besides any multiple target scenario that necessitates getting back on line quickly, don't forget that single target engagements are just as important on your follow through. Even when engaging a single target, you are out of touch with the situation until you have your field of view (sight picture) back on line with the intended target. Even with a spotter feeding you info, a lot of things can happen in just 2 or 3 seconds.

Bottom line is that I am a puss when it comes to Mr.Murphy. I try to get a few shots logged into my book off of concrete under different conditions and also practice other bipod problems. When in certain environments it would be STUPID to set your bipod feet on a narrow or slippery surface just so you can use the damned thing. It's a tool! JUST CAUSE YOU GOT IT DON'T MEAN YOU GOTTA TO USE IT! Be sure to log in some shots from your ruck sack or other improvised rests. Your rifle will track differently off of these things but when set up properly will have no loss of accuracy.

A freakin bipod leg slipping off an edge when things are in a high pucker factor guarantees a FUBAR.

I'm dumb and paranoid, so when I get a rare moment to actually shoot my rifle, I try to keep it difficult on myself. I don't want to do something for the first time when the shot has to count, even at a match. Everybody just remember that it's OK to shoot a poor group or miss a target in front of your buddies during practice as long a you're learning something and improving your capabilities.

Little things mater at a distance. Don't let tomorrow be the first time you're forced to deal with them in less than perfect (bipod feet on freshly mowed lawn) conditions.

See. I told ya. 2 cents.

Everybody stay safe,
TC
 

Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 13:47:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.48)

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve Field <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 14:12:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.186)

Happy 4th of July!

When the Declaration of Independence was declared, John Adams wrote this historic letter to his wife:

"I am apt to believe that this day will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore."

(But for this, I would NOT have thought about touching a beer, but if John Adams says we should...)

Also, note that John said the celebration should include GUNS. So much for the arguments that the founding fathers never meant the 2nd Amendment was for everyone.

Happy 4th Everyone (Now I have to mail this to my British Boss!)
 

Jefe
 

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 17:46:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

Have any of you found steel trigger gaurds and foorplates for the M70 stealths? The tigger guard is made of cast pot metal and seems very fragile. I cringe each time I torque the action screws. Looking to upgrade, but can't find anyone that makes steel replacements. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Mid-Tenn, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 18:30:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.184)

Steve - On the 3.5, don’t see where it would make much of a difference myself. You already ignore wobble, so shooting high mag is not a problem and you shoot irons so not seeing the target with perfect clarity is not a problem. You shoot high master with irons. Your brain went into shoot mode and you shot. Sometimes you will shoot REAL good and then sometimes you will merely shot good. You happened to only shoot good that day. :-)

Terry - Agree with you on shooting data, but would not shoot off of concrete with bipods unless unavoidable. Carry the small bench rest stand made by, great name has slipped my brain housing group, but the stand is not attached to the rifle and it rest on the concrete and weapon rests on a the pad. Weapon no hop and stay on target. Also, excellent point you made on recovery to your target. Misses do happen just like s**t, and you need to be back on target sa fast as possible. Always assume a miss, or you will have HSBOSs heading your way. Of course that is better then SSBOHs.

Jefe - They have effectively removed “illuminations, and bonfires” as well as “pomp” and any form of loud behavior. What makes you think the left leaners are going to not go for the whole ball of wax?

Oh well enough for now, will end this and do other fun things.

Hold Hard Guys.

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 19:19:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.52)

As many things as I dislike about my home state of Vermont, its the only State I know of whose Supreme Court ruled that requiring a concealed carry permit is unconstitutional because it violates the 2nd Amendment. They havent taken it all yet!

And besides, I remember when the power went out at Fort Bragg, at least in divisions area that there were enuf fireworks to make Mr. Adams very proud! All American, All the Way!!

Meanwhile, life in South America is pretty damn good! The Brits in the company all do their tour and go home till the next one. All the Americans stay here and live while the Colombians try to flee the country. It sure helps with rental prices!

Gotta luv a country where the murder rate goes down 15% when they change closing time at the bars from 2am to 1am!(although it kind of pisses you off at closing time).

Sorry for the off topic post, but I am having entirely too much fun!
 

Jefe

PS: You need some Sello Rojo or something, just drop me a note and
I will get to it when I can.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, July 03, 2001 at 21:28:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

Thanks for the input.
steve - hockyref <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, PA, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 03:49:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.27)

At the last local gun show I attended I was looking over the wares at one of the tables when another individual asked the guy behind the table if he had one of the VersaPod adapters for the M1A. It replaces the plug and allows you to attach the bipod to the gas system.

The conversation ran along the lines of any bipod attached to the gas system of an M1A, including the original military bipod, will cause the mating spline on the barrel at the gas system to wear out faster and affect accuracy. The point was if you wanted to mount a bipod to a M1A, mount it to the stock.

What is anyone elses thoughts on the matter?
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 04:29:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.40.76)

Have any of you Hogs seen the "Shoot-Rite" palm computer for snipers? I visited thier web site and it looks interesting. I imagine it would really come in handy for those .50BMG shots past 1,500 yards.

I'm very conservative about equipment changes. Anything that takes batteries and can be an emitter is suspect in my book. However I must also be ready to embrace innovation when it is for the better.

So??? What's the skinny on this thing?

Undude....looks like a good subject for your next opus.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 10:49:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.68)

Happy July 4th to all.
Lets not forget the significance of today, because if we do there may not be too many more to celebrate.
 

Take care
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 12:07:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

EMC(SS/DSV) Larry J. Porter, USN, Ret. <mskporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 13:46:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.138.15)

Bad work/any smith. You have 2 basic paths here. If business was done over state lines, may be able to go on mail fraud. Postal inspectors take this stuff very seriously. The thought of federal legal problems should get people to sit up & take notice.

The other method is local court system. If you & they are local look at small claims court. You will have to get "expert" tesitmony/documentation that the work is bad/part ruined. Remington service center should be able to give you a letter stating that. If out of state send paperwork to better business bureau and/or local district attorney see about state charges. A written evaluation by Remington or someone would also help out with postal inspectors.

There's 2 major ways to identify good smiths: quality or work and how they correct problems. Try as you will, every once in a while something goes out the door that shouldn't. A good buddy had an original Armand Swensen 1911 that got out the door with a 1 7/8 lb trigger. I went nuts trying to figure out how that trigger could be that light without the hammer following. Went to the point of calling the man and his reply amounted to "Oh S@#t, send it back NOW!"

All else fails there's always Gun Parts Inc. for a new bolt.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 14:20:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.21.148.253)

Byron - You mess with the gas system of that weapon and it will shoot two things - Jack and s**t. That lash up will change vibration and POI radically and unpredictably. That is why there is grease under(or supposed to be) the forestock matting collar and the gas collar. This minimizes the rub and the vibration changes as the rub changes.

Now begging the all important question - Why do you change out a perfectly good extractor made by Remington to a SAKO. The Remington extractors we originally had did not start to wear until over 50,000 rounds were put on the bolts. That is not a misprint guys. We also can change an extrctor on the range with a jewlers screw driver and our thumb when they finally do wear out. I just don't see you guys putting on the 8000 rounds a your guns we do on our student guns. Just my 2 cents on this chartge to change the "bad Remy extractor". Makes me wonder if this is not another myth set up by gunsmiths to make more money?

Jefe - That is one thing that I really like about Vermont. Jeffords is one of tose things that I really dislike. :-) (Sorry could not resist!)

Steve - As you know and stated, there are those days when you just do not know what the heck happened. Relax, go into shooter's meditation and then shoot that X. :-)

Hold Hard guys and again, Celebrate safely but celebrate!!!!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 15:19:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)

Hey how's it going? I saw your post about the bipod for the M1A gas plug. Any bipod attached to the gas system will cause accuracy problems. If you want to put a bipod on the M1A attach it to the stock. A swivel bipod is way better because it helps to keep the pressure at the barrel band, and stock ferrule consistant. The Versa Pod works real good. It swivels in two different directions. It pans so you can follow a mover(some), and swivels so you don't "cant" the rifle if it is on an uneven surface. It has a quick release feature that allows you to remove the pod from the mounting stud. It is a copy of the Parker Hale bipod.
I have two M1A's and over the last several years I have tried different configurations with them. Currently they both have Kreiger barrels, and McMillan stocks. One is setup like the early version M25 with a Mk4 scope, and BPT mount. It is very accurate, but at about 17Lbs it is just a bit too heavy. I enjoy shooting the M1A, but for the same bucks you can buy a real good custom bolt gun from Nor Cal, or some of the other good rifle builders. The bolt gun is gonna require less maintenance, and will be more consistant over the long run. And it won't weigh 17 Lbs!
Hope this helps you decide what you want to do.

Best Regards, and Have a Great Fourth of July!!
 

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, Ky, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 15:28:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.34)

None taken. In fact, that ruling and the fact its got some great countryside are the only good things about the state left.

Shouldve known that any place that spawned a soldier like Steve Bnascni would go to hell in a handbasket!

Take Care,

Jefe
jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 16:13:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

HAVE AN AWESOME AND SAFE JULY 4TH!!! HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
God's Country, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 16:59:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.51.186)

Changed my Rem extractor for a Sako unit after blowing a primer and causing the extractor to become unreliable. The Sako unit thus far seems reliable, and field repair would not be a major production.

When changing I would have preffered an M16 type unit as used by Savage, for a cleaner installation ,but lost the address of the folks that do that conversion.

Also should be noted That I have a Rem700 from the mid 60's that has had the original barrel replaced after the rifling began to look like an HK, still has the original extractor in it, and I know I got that 8000 round mark beat all to hell on this rifle.

Best to all, be safe on this 4th.
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 18:06:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.81)

I just couldn't stay quiet on this one... Remington extractors.

My first Rem 40-XB/R 308 was bought NEW in 1966... took it to the Carlos match in '99 (and shot you twice HA ;) and it got a new extractor for it, in '96.
I have a bunch more of Rems that are real long in the tooth (circa late 60's), and they are fine.

The old design is called the rivet or staked extractor, and you could wear one out if you shoot a LOT! (about 20,000+ rounds).

About 20 years ago, Rem re-designed the extractor, and the new one is called the snap-in extractor (very easy to change!! What Rick said... do it your self!)... and you would have to belt feed one for a year to wear it out.

The new design also has a bigger tooth, for more rim grab.

At the same time, they redesigned the replacement staked extractors to have the new style tooth, so once you replace an one style extractor... you will never have to do it again.

I built a M24 clone in 308 last year, and am about to finish another one in 300WM in a few weeks... each one has about $3000 in parts, but not a dime spent on the extractor.

If you are changing the extractor on a M700 bolt, you are just throwing money away... you will NEVER WEAR OUT A CURRENT Rem EXTRACTOR OUT!!!
... and they do not fail.
 
 

"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 18:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.80)

God Bless America!

Obl. sniper-related topic: I have set myself up for a shot at next year's "most-improved shooter" award at the FCSA championship match. If there is such a thing. I did poorly, due to a number of factors, but I did finish, and I learned a lot.

Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 18:20:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.123.15.245)

Two hours and two gallons of sweat later we now have the target area cleared and mowed with the bank behind the steel mowed "high & tight". We like to account for every round fired with a clang or a splash of dirt. Now we'll be able to see what's happening and adjust our settings.

It's starting to shape up nicely. The farmer was cultivating his cabbage so no shooting this morning. Maybe later this afternoon.

I got two yards of red flag nylon at the fabric store yesterday and will create a range flag to fly when the range is hot. (expensive stuff)

Gooch & Rick,
I did a safety fan for the range even before I asked permission. We've got a full 2,000 meters of vacant rising gound behind the 12 foot high bank against which our targets are set. The next property down range is the County Landfill. We're good to go. It'll be a while before we start shooing night fire under parachute-flares. ;-)

out
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 20:25:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.181)

Glad to see your post, now get your ass back in here.

Got to say this, the Rem snap in extractor may never 'wear out ', but they do fail. Mine did and it only takes one to make the point. Failed right in the middle of a two day class to boot. Embarassing.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 21:09:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.13)

I am going to respectfully ask you to resolve this rifle dilemna somewhere other than the Duty Roster. The related posts will be removed and filed elsewhere.

If there is a problem act as adults and resolve it following correct adult behavior and, or, customer service practices.

If this cannot be done, the S/C Council can deal with it other ways

Do I make myself ABSO-F&*#KINGLUTELY CLEAR?

Oh and by the way
 
 
 

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY TO THE USA, AND All OF ITS CITIZENS!
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 21:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.24)

First of all, happy 4th from across the big pond. Now if you all would start congratulating me with the 5th of may that would be cool. Oh.... I forget ..... it was you who liberated us, so I guess I should thank you on that day.... ;-)

Question: can anyone give me a good explanation (or point me to one available online) why BOTH uphill AND downhill shooting require the same compensation? It's OK to tell preople that it is so, but it's something else (not to say: it sucks) if some smart*ss starts asking you WHY. (If you're reading this, sorry Dimitri).

Thanks for any help you can give.

Stefan
Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Wednesday, July 04, 2001 at 21:24:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.46.159.37)

Stefan - You are shooting a right angle triangle and the ballistic range for elevation is the short leg whether you are at the top or at the bottom. However never forget that the wind and weather effects is figured on the long leg! Thus you may have an actual range of 600 meters wheich you figure wind drift while the gravity range is only 450 meters. Adds fun to the shooting huh. :-)

Mike - The only extractor failures that I have seen with our weapons have been due to either poor maintenence or overly large round counts. You must have had one of the bad ones that pop up to prove what great extractors they really are. :-)

Jefe - Steve is salt of the earth man! Who else would have a female of uncertain persuasion call my house at 9 at night from Panama as a joke? Wife was not amused! :-(

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 01:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.46)

You brought up a point that may be of interest to a few folks here, certainly to me. Could you outline proper maintainence procedure for the Rem700 action and bolt?

Thanks in advance,

Mike
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 01:29:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.60)

Also like to second the request from a few days ago for drawings to machine stripper clip slots in model 700 actions. I'm sure there's some guys who'd do a great job. I just prefer to do my own work. Makes the warranty issue easier to deal with.

A very large thank you to Mr. Gooch & Mr. Rick on the bipod prone position. Works MUCH better than the instructions given by an alleged authority with another agency. Have found out why they went to more vertical pistol grips though. I need to work on this more.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
deprivation, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 02:33:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.21.108.106)

I agree. Customer service is half of what you pay for. If a company is not going to comply with their own guarantee, they won't be in business for long. A company is only as good as its word.

Just one thing though, man your last post was hot, and you really made your point, but with whom? All I'm sayin is that ya should be dealin' with the guy who f'ed up.

later

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 02:53:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.113.85.43)

Id have to agree with you. I feel kinda silly after my stint with Winchester, but it would never had gone this far on the board.

A suggestion for anyone unsatisfied with a product they have received. Review it, or have a friend who knows what's what review it and send said review into the site for consideration. I'm sure Pete or Marius or whomever is reviewing at the time will be able to pick up on any one sided BS in the article and get decent info out for reiview. If your fair in you evaluation and fair in your testing, let the performance do the speaking for you.

Just a thought from a newbie. Hoping today finds you all in good health and high spirits.

Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Heavy Rain' strong Wind, Still out shootin', Mid-Tenn, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 02:56:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.172)

Same Steve I know! I grew up with him up until about 6th grade when they went south and I ran into him when I was in the 193rd. He visited one year at Christmas and there I was, in a barfight at a ski area at the age of 30 something. The fun never stops around him, but like the guy told his lawyer when asked about how he was getting along with his weightlifting cellmate named bubba; "Ya gotta luv him."

Serious note though, (for a change), what are your thoughts on this:

MTN INF CO with 3 Sniper teams deploys for peacekeeping. One team is tasked for company support forward of the FFU (being the base camp), one is OPCON to the S2 and the last team stands down and pulls some security at the base camp.

What do you think about that? I realize its vague on the scenario.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 03:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

I saw something similer, if not exactly the same, at a gun show recently. The tubes appeared to be made out of closed cell foam rubber. Very light and flexible enough you could fold one up and stick it in your back pocket.. But, not being affixed to the scope through any significant means other than a stretch friction fit, it took very, and I mean very little to push the tube off-axis to where you couldn't see a thing through the scope. A cable tie would likely be necessary.
 

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 07:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

I know this subject has been discussed "ad nauseum" but here goes.

I've got my 175's @ 2,675 fps and I'm using the .30-06 dial. (I'm told it's supposed to match.)

At ranges out to 600 yards I'm using on the average two minutes less than the dial range marks. I know I can just log the data and shoot the actual come-ups but if that's the case some of the utility of the dial is lost.

I'm going to re-chrono my loads to be sure they aren't faster than originally thought. However I'm only loading 43.3 grains of Varget now.

Thoughts?

out
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 12:24:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

On a bolt problem for a Remington 700. If you need a new bolt the weapon will probably have to go back to Remington. They quit selling bolts years ago because of liability. Future never change the extractor type unless no choice like in a 338 Lapua conversion. I would say the best thing to do is have someone like George Gardner take a look at it. Neither you or the smith will ever agree at this point to whats fair.

On Bipods, I also use an Eagle Scope protector when all else fails to shoot off the concrete. If I dont get a good position that way I go to the pack. Next is just edge the feet into the soil. Any hard surface will cause the bounce. You can play with loading force onto the legs but then you have to be equal in the force applied to get it consistent and that is a nightmare to learn. While on this subject if you have a Parker Hale type pod you will probably get better groups by learning to load the bipod. This is because it is one wobble after another with that thing. The force will take out some of it. Now dont try and break it just a few pounds to sette it.

On a computor article. I think that thing is being pushed by Trigger 50 and he would probably do his own thing on who writes what. I dont think they will beat down my door for an evaluation. I still believe in dope it dial it dump it. Dope to me is Temp, range, wind, ammo, elevation. There are certain calculations I dont use that will be on the comp. that I have never used and that would probably leave me out of the loop. BUt hell I am with Rick and Gooch on this so not bad company.LOL

Undude back t his hole

PS nice to see you you old Pablito you!
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 13:53:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

On the M3 BDC...I'm just now working up loads to match my cam and am learning about the scope, as well.

Bravo probably has as much experience with this, on M25's, as any of us. Since I'm new to the M3 I really can't comment.

S

< it would be nice if you would write up your procedure for "tensioning" the A.R.M.S mount and setting up your scope on the M25 for posterity. HINT, HINT!

Undude has it right, IMHO. Dope it, Dial it, Dump it! You're wasting valuable time doing anything else. Works for me...

By the way, glad to see the Marines let you loose. You're lucky. They have the habit of hanging onto "a few good men"...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 14:11:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.5)

Thanks,
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 14:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 167.234.102.23)

I think the problem is more with the smith who puts them in. It seems that the older rivit ones are kindof tricky for some people and they do tend to screw them up. I have never touched the one on my 308/260 and its on its 3rd barrel.

Reputable Smiths..
Most any quality rifle builder will take care of a problem ASAP since their work is their reputation. We all need to understand that even the best smiths will have a bad barrel or have something slip by. The problem arises when they don't correct it or offer to make it right but those people won't stay in business long.

Rick or any other long range genious..
Why in the hell do I go out one day and shoot a course nearly a full MOA low from 600yds on out when I have shot it just fine for several weeks with the same dials under nearly identical conditions!!!The ammo I use is NOT temp sensitive and is out of the same batch. I have had this happen before and it drives me NUTS and gives me NIGHTMARES!!!

The humidity and dew points weren't as high as when I shot it several days earlier so thats out. The wind was out of the exact same direction at nearly the same speed. The only real difference was time of day 0700am to 1630 for the previous time.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 16:21:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Pat seem to remember something about chasing the light. Lights up, sights down, Lights down sights up or something like that but most of my shooting is only to 350 yds these days so it dosen't really matter in my case. Maybe the guru's could explain light.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 17:09:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Only ever saw one fail. It was during a High Power Silhouette Championship. The guy stepped off the line long enough to "borrow" a bolt from another shooter. (Kinda makes your skin crawl don't it?) He went on to finish and placed high enough to win in his class.

Ha...borrow a bolt....go figure.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 18:16:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

shots over - fire-mission accomplished

standing down till next engagement

Out
Fire-control officer <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 19:17:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.181)

Call George Gardner 816-221-1844
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 20:38:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Posted some Book/Movie reviews from Scott - take a look.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 21:21:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.215)

When the light is bright, your eye can more easily resolve the edge of the black, so you tend to hold on the true edge (lower), rather than further into the black when the edge is indistinct.

HTH

Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Thursday, July 05, 2001 at 23:25:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.123.15.245)

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 00:39:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.201)

Just back from the range. Thursday evening has become our "snper" get together for a few of us. Tonight we worked from the 200 yard line. I decided to take my newly broken in .223 Stealth and a handload that has show some promise at 100 yards.

Conditions: Wind 10-12 mph variable, temperature 70 degrees, clear sky. Shooting was done prone.

My load was a .223 Winchester case(match prep'd), 24.6 gr. IMR-4895, Federal 205 Match primer, and a Sierra 69 gr. Match King.

In spite of the wind all groups were sub-moa. Several were less than .5 MOA. Correct elevation for this load was +1 MOA from my 100 yard zero. Need to chronograph it this next week, but it looks like we have a WINNER! Damn, that Stealth shoots!

All for now. I hear my bed calling...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 04:47:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.1)

Does anyone have any information about any of the hand held wind/conditions meters. Since I am looking at recording a little more data regarding the range conditions when gathering load information I figured I might buy one. The unit that seems the most promising right now is the Kestrel 4000, running about $300.

Here is some basic info:

The Kestrel® 4000 Pocket Weather™ Tracker is the next generation of weather monitoring. You can now measure EVERY major environmental condition, easily and accurately, right in the palm of your hand. The chart mode allows users to recall and graph up to 250 measurements, along with the date and time of storage. Barometric Pressure, Altitude, Density Altitude, Temperature, Humidity, Wind Speed, Wind Chill, Dew Point, Wet Bulb, and Heat Index... all in one pocket sized instrument.

It is about twice the price of their 3000 but has altitude and barometric pressure and the others don't. Anyone know of another product that will fit the bill?
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 05:23:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.205)

I suspect that you usually know your shooting elevation, and at most distances them effect of different barometric differences will be very slight.

Spend the difference on a long range rifle course and ammo and go shoot.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
Gearing up for New Mexico, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 05:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

M40A1:
Just disassembled cleaned completely and reassembled the new rig. The action screws were only finger tight. Now they're at 65 in.lb. We'll see today if that makes a difference.

Oh well off to do some PT...I like it, I love it, I want more of it.........

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 08:27:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.174)

I use the Brunton "Sherpa" wind/baro/temp meter, (for several things) and find it to be very accurate. That being said, the real secret is STILL to go out and shoot lots. If you want to dope the wind and temp, then check it with the meter, go for it until you're comfortable. Other than being a learning tool, a meter might become a crutch that would really slow you down, and the d@#m batteries WILL die at the worst time. Unless you travel a bunch, the factors other than wind are more seasonal than something you need to worry about daily.
Flattop <BKFlattop@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 12:45:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.161.197.133)

I always use the MOAs at the bottom of the ring. For quick shooting I painted over the yardage numbers at the top and then scribed in my own yardage numbers over the "Correct" MOA for "MY" pet load, not theirs, and it works great, just a suggestion.

Wind Meters..
I use the simple hand held with the speed and temp. Works great but as they say don't let it become a crutch. I make the wind call "FIRST" then I check my call to see how close I am.

The thing that you really need to learn to read is the mirage or the grass and folage. It will tell you what the wind is doing down range. If your shooting across canyons or down or across draws the wind down range can actually be blowing the opposite direction your reading at your position. Just something else to confuse everyone!!(HA)
 

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 13:33:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Where can I get an armorers manual for the Steyr SSG series of rifles? In english. Thanks.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 13:43:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

I have researched a lot about the windmeters. I thought Kestrel 3000 was a bit overkill but the Kestrel 4000 definately is overkill for shooting. For weather freaks it is a good meter, for shooting it is too complex.

I think Kestrel 1000 or Kestrel 2000 would be enough for most shooters. If you need a little bit more stuff, go and buy a Alti WindWatch. www.sciencecompany.com in Denver sells both Kestrel and Alti WindWatch. The Kestrel 1000 was about $65 inc.s&h.

Kestrel 3000 is there $112.95 inc. S&H
Alti WindWatch is there $119.95 inc. S&H (special, not many available)

I bought a Alti WindWatch a while ago from Science Company. It meters temperature, barometric pressure (registers always the last 16 hours), wind speed, wind chill, altitude 0-30000 ft. It floats, weighs around two ounces, has a 2 year Warranty and is Swiss made. The same unit is sold also under Silva, Brunton, Windtec and probably other brand names.

Using wind meters: I think the best use of these is to use them to learn wind estimation. First you feel the wind and guess the speed. Then you verify it with the meter. Over time you will learn to estimate the winds pretty well. Long range shooting you will only learn by shooting. Electronics can help a little bit but they can only help, they can not shoot the rifle.

BTW www.sciencecompany.com is the cheapest place in the net for Kestrel 1000/2000/3000 and Alti WindWatch that I have found. In some other places Alti WindWatch costs around $169-$230 so I think this company has a pretty good deal on these meters.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 15:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

P.S. I just thought I'd cover me arse with the dislaimer above.
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 16:13:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.182)

HOOOYAH!
I just returned from my lunch hour at the range next door. (Yes, I know.)

Tightening the action screws to 65 in.lbs reduced group sizes by half. I just shot .46 MOA. (very pleased)

Average velocity is 2,720 fps with a SD of 9 fps.

Group is 1/2" above the POA.

This might explain why I'm 2 minutes under the M3LR dial settings at 600 yards. Can I get a check on that?

I established the velocity of 2,675 with cases from which I had pulled the bullets. Could the increased neck tension of a once loaded case result in a 45 fps velocity increase?

Back to the loading bench.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 16:52:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Was up a McClellan on 3 July talking to the range officer and the scheduling lady. We are in. All I need is some feedback on dates from ya'll.

This will be an International League of Riflemen OPEN Practical Precision Rifle (PPR) event with military/Police and citizen classifications. ILR is going to be a CMP affiliated organization so entry will require you to be eligible for entry in Civilian Marksmanship Program activities. (You must have no legal restrictions on firearms possesion/ownership and not be a member in any organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the US Government.)

The ranges at Fort Mac are closed 10-12 and 22-25 Nov. Weekends are rough since the reserve forces eat them up and we risk getting bumped on weekends. We can have reporting/registration on a sunday and shoot mon-tues with awards on tuesday evening.

Those of you that are serious about attending give me some ideas on dates and I'll take them into consideration. Any conflicting events anyone knows of?

McClellan in in Anniston, AL, between Birminham and Atlanta on I-20. I'm working on a special rate for hotels.

Next year we will have a series of PPR matches accross the country. Maybe one in Canada.

Those that attend the match this Nov. will recieve a special coin commemorating the first ILR Practical Precision Rifle match and will receive a charter membership to the ILR.

What is a good entry fee for those who are thinking of attending? We will have prizes including a rifle or two. Entry will also require a membership to ILR which looks like $40 for annual and $300 for lifetime.

More info on ILR and the match will be posted on the ILR website (www.riflemen.net) when it is up in a few days (we hope).

If you yahoos have any comments for me please send them to goochkw@riflemen.net.

Here we go!!

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 16:56:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.91)

On the M1A bipod question, the ONLY way to go is to bed a stud into the fore-end. Ideally, there should be a steel plate bedded into a channel inletted in the barrel channel, then the stud mounted to that. Even better is to have the stock formed around some steel plates, like McMillan does for their Wichita sling swivels. Not much extra dough, but you've got to order it that way from the start.

Anyone putting on one of those versa-pod spigots in place of the gas cylinder plug needs his head examined.

And to Wes: I'm also interested in reading an article on mounting the ARMS base up to a M1A receiver. When you get it, could you pass it on?

Hope this isn't too goofy for a newby post, I know how you guys hate those.
Victor <gasgunguy@yahoo.com>
Kalifornicate-ya, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 17:55:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.237)

I just received 500 pieces of Winchester brass and a box of 500 SMK175s. I have 1000 Federal Match primers. As soon as I can get an 8# can of Varget I will be in business. All smiles!!!!

Speaking of primers, what are some opinions on Fed Match vs. CCI Bench Rest?

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 18:15:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

-chase

chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, ID, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 20:08:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 167.234.101.89)

Yikes!
You describe quality scopes and rifles.....I would suspect the mounts and rings.......

Go Badger and never look back.

FWIW here's my set-up:
Rifle drilled and tapped to #8-32
Badger one piece steel 20 MOA base Torx screwed and loctited in place
Badger rings torqued to 65 in.lbs to the base
Top ring half attached by Torx screws at 35 in.lbs.

My SWS took a 4' fall to thinly carpeted concrete and never shifted zero.

Good luck officer Thomas.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 20:59:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

For example I have four department weapons with Leupolds and three with US Optics. None of which ahve ever changed zero from similar things. The Leupolds will if you beat the hell out of them but not under normal use. Certainly not from the case falling over. The US Optics have never shifted zero no matter how we treated them.

If you are getting what you descripe you ahve big problems and no way you would get a zero! If it moves from a tap on the scope a violent recoil would certainly move it. The problem you describe is usually a broken reticle but not likely to happen to all unless you have animals with rocks working for you.LOL Seriously look to the mounts then the action screws (Torque) and thebbls being truly free floated.

If you need further help get ahold of me via email
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, July 06, 2001 at 21:45:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

I have a Loopy M3LR mounted to a Rem 700 on Badger base and rings. Everything is properly torqued and Loctited in place.

While I won't admit to being as clumsy as Kevin (Andy's dad) is (LOL), my gun gets it's share of banging around in normal everyday use, even when in its case. I have yet to loose my zero due to rough handling.

Sounds like you guys went top drawer for equipment - except for the scope mount stuff.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, July 07, 2001 at 02:09:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.212)

Paul, Norm Crawford was 3rd in the Leach Cup 1,000 yard match at Perry in '98, and with the Palma Match he qualified for the '99 US Palma Team that went to South Africa. That's 1,000 yards, iron-sighted, shooting a 155 Sierra Match King.

Traded out two guns I never shot for a Harrington and Richardson 50's-make M1 Garand for the John Garand Match at Perry. CMP delivered a can of 280 rounds, M1 30-06 Ball to the door for $60 bucks, plus 15 for shipping. They've got 5,000 rounds of GI .22 Standard Velocity Match for $75 again.

One of my guys got a George Gardner 300 Win Mag for Alaskan bears. Nice rifle!

Darren Dong / Mike Miller, when we were circling over San Francisco Bay to jump into the Giants/A's game at Pac Bell Stadium I saw a 600 yard KD range about 2-3 miles west of the north end of the Golden Gate Bridge. Is that still active (I think it used to be Fort Mason or Fort Funston)?

Anyone else heading to Perry?

Back to the garage to load.
 
 
 
 

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, July 07, 2001 at 04:32:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.100)

That is the first that I heard of this. I know there is a 200 yard range up North in Santa Rosa. East of us is Chabot with a 100 and 200 yard range. We have several ranges down South and they are either 100 or 200 or just 100. East of us is Sacramento, that goes out to 1000 yards. I think I will look into this and get back to you on this.

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Saturday, July 07, 2001 at 04:51:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.24.38.136)

Next week a number of us will be off in New Mexico while James and Mike try to teach us to shoot better! It should be a pretty interesting crowd with a number of nice rifles. Rumor has it that George (G&A Precision) might even show........

Bravo, we will miss your ever ready opinions and Bravo Brew! Hang in there!

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 06:07:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Yep we've been off shootin'.

Andy and I shot in a High Power Match yesterday.
I took My SMLE No. 4, Mk2.. I shot a 398 with the old warhorse.
My Garand is in the shop getting a new barrel and what not.

Next summer I'm going to go to Camp Perry and attend the school there and shoot the National Matches. I've never been there but have always wanted to go.

Now there's a spot for a Rendezvous!

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 11:06:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.59)

I can not speak of the Chandler rifles, but I have extensive experience with Armament Technology rifles and I am throughly impressed with the quality and accuracy. Andy knows how to build rifles and you can't go wrong. On the Chandler side of the house I have heard good things about their rifles. I will be attending his Blackwater Lodge course in November so I can give you some more feedback then! Good luck. I recommend you contact Andy and give him a shout.

Jeff
JC Wilson <blackhawk@mb.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 14:03:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.200.254.110)

Good for you for deciding to shoot at Perry! Bring your son along as well.

Summer 1999 was my first-ever trip to the National Matches, something I'd read about every year since I was an NRA Junior Shooter at 12 years old. Every September when I got the "National Matches Results" edition of the American Rifleman, I'd always wondered what it would be like.

My first competition day at the Nationals I was standing on the 200 yard line, and was wondering in my head...I was shooting with around 1250 of the best service rifle shooters in the United States.

"I'm shooting as a soldier in the US Army.
I'm shooting at the National Matches at Camp Perry...
I'm shooting in the President's Hundred...

I have no idea where those first five rounds went."

The Nationals schedule is pretty varied -- if you don't have a lot of vacation time, you can shoot just the President's Hundred and the Leg, or if you can just spare a weekend you can shoot the Garand Match on Saturday (everyone brings an "Arms Room" grade M1, Carbine, Springfield, Johnson, or M1917, or they'll issue you an M1 on the line. Everyone shoots issue Ball at 200 yards: 5 rounds to zero, and 10 rounds for record, prone; 10 rounds sitting rapid; and 10 rounds standing). If CMP issued you the M1, and you don't have one, this year they're giving you the option of buying that rifle, right there!

If you've never shot standing and sitting, and you just have a scoped rifle you can shoot the three days of "Canadian Cup" Long Range competition at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards (the only restriction is the third and last day is .308 caliber iron-sights only in the Palma Match).

See you there!

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 14:21:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.100)

Dustin and Jeff.

I have the first experimental 6.5 X .284 that Iron Brigade Armory built. They since have three more in process. I am more than pleased with the rifle. It is a functional work of art. Mine consistently does 1.5" at 600 yards with selected handloads, holds zero, and is a joy to shoot.

As for Armament Tech rifles...I have no experience with them. Note, there are a number of makers out there that build fine rifles. Rice, Gardner, and others have a super reputation. No matter who you decide upon, go with a "known quantity", and don't "cheap charlie" it. You'll be much better off in the long run.

The downside is that you'll wait about a year for the Chandler gun. I can't vouch for the other shops. If you want a real USMC spec gun this is the ONLY way to get one. Spendy, but worth every penny!

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 15:46:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.36)

I will be dragging a couple of them out to NM on Thursday.

Just like Wes said, buy from a quality maker, and you will be happy. Then shoot the piss out of it!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Sunday, July 08, 2001 at 16:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

I think you are embarking on a program to take good shooting rifles and convert them to noise-makers. Yes, there are chamber inserts out there. They add about 1/2 inch of freebore, in a game where shooters try to put the bullets into or very near the lands to minimize jump.

I'd be surprised if your accuracy was up to your expectations.

My $.02

Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 02:22:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.123.15.245)

Rifle #1, Remington 700 Short Action, McMillan McHale Stock, HS Precision stainless triggerguard, detachable 3 round mag. Obermeyer 1-10 twist 5R stainless barrel, 26'' length .975 at muzzle. Tuned Remington trigger. Finished in black KG teflon.

Rifle #2, Dakota 76, Solid bottom single shot, OD/Black McMillan McHale stock. Cooper Precision/Mike Rock 1-10 stainless 5R barrel 26"
.875 at muzzle. Finished in black KG teflon.
 

Both rifles were broken in by firing 10 singles and then 3 shot groups for the next 30. Both barrels seemed to foud veary little if not at all. I did experience some pressure problems with factory Winchester 180 gr loads, in rifle #1 only. This was probably due to the Tight .298 Obermeyer Bore. No problems at all with any other loads. Here is the Scoop:

Win 180 gr Factory PP SP, Avg Vel Rifle#1 3080 Rifle#2 3062
Win 150 gr Factory Bal tip Avg Vel Rifle#1 3225 Rifle#2 3198

Handload #1 73 gr VV N560, 175MK Avg Vel #1 3168 #2 3130
Handload #2 55 gr Varget, 175 MK Avg Vel #1 3078 #2 3051
Handload #3 57 gr Varget, 168 MK Avg Vel #1 3123 #2 3104

Accuracy was superb with the reloads, both rifles shot like lasers .250", 3 shot groups were the normal with a couple groups in the .190" range. The worst was .480

The Factory 180 grain loads averaged about 3/4 Moa with the 150 Balistic tip factory loads this was knocked down to a 1/2 Moa average.

In all I believe the 300 WSM to be far superior to the 300 win mag in accuracy and pulling on its coattails in the horsepower department. And best of all in a Short Action!! Any of you that have been thinking of doing a rifle in this caliber or converting a short action. Thumbs up Here.

Take Care

George Out
 

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 05:48:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.248.155.66)

Jan Thomas

I'm pretty rough on my gear and haven't experienced the POI shifting you describe. I'm not a "duty slotted" anything but a fairly serious varmint and long range shooter. My typical setup is a Leupold scope and Badger Rings on a heavily constructed carry rifle. My 'sniper' rifle seldom rides in it's Pelical case and my 'varmint' rigs never see a case. I generally just pile the rifle into the rear of my pickup and let it 'settle' and ride with the rest of the junk back there. (I don't abuse them but I don't baby them either. I'd guess I'm about a 6 on the "commercial airline baggage handler's" abuse scale.) I've had them take falls out of the truck onto blacktop and rocks, slip sidways off the side of the truck and clatter onto the blacktop and/or ground. I raise and lower them by rope into and out of trees and they suffering an occasional 'whack' against the truck or limb.

I've had hunters shudder and shake thier head after seeing some of the falls and tumbles the rifles and I have taken, they're obviously sure that it'd take several days at the range to get a 'zero' back on the rifle. Most of them are instant converts to the big heavy tactical scopes, bases and rings after seeing the rifle(s) shoot to POA/POI subsequent to these 'killer' falls and whacks.

Your post is the first I've heard in many years concerning a POI shift due to a 'tap' on a quality scope. I'm not dis-believing you, I'm just a little confused as to how this happens.

Sign me up for your test program, another 'whack' or two isn't going to be noticable on my gear. I could even video the 'whacking' process and shot strings if you wish. Any opportunity to send a few more rounds down range is definately worth while.

Dave "Doc" King
 
 
 
 

Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 11:40:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

Does anybody really take a camera tripod on a stalk?
I've got one all tricked out with the PVC saddle with padding etc. and it seems pretty bulky. I don't use a drag bag in the stalk but it would seem necessary if I were to "drag along" a tripod.

Ref: Case Neck Tension

How does a tight case to bullet fit effect velocity? (tighter=faster?)

Ref: Camelback Cleaning

I just bought a "bore brush" for my camelbak drinking tube. What I scrubbed out of that tube was nasty. Store your Camelback systems clean and dry all kinds of stuff will grow in there and it could make you pretty sick.

Ref: Natural Veg. & Ghillie Suits

Are there any tricks to attaching natural vegitation to the Ghillie Suit?

out
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 12:41:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

A question about the work GA Precision did to your 300 RUM. I have a 300WM I want to rebarrel and have the action worked on. How much did it run you to have them do the work for you? I pretty much need what you got minus the bedding job. Thanks.

Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 14:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.22.212.106)

I am trying to find some private land by 1500 X 1000 for stalking excercise North of San Francisco or East of San Francisco. I want it far away from prying eyes. Any ideas and suggestion would be appreciated.

I am trying to put together a 2 day stalk class with Mike Miller.

Any questions, toss them my way. Thanks in advance

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 14:26:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.211.20.29)

Byron had asked me to post the results of my Winchester M70 .223 Stealth testing. Rifle is box stock, .223, 1/9" twist/26" barrel.

Load:
Winchester cases(new/match prep'd)
Federal 205 Match primer
24.6 gr. IMR-4895
Sierra 69 gr. Match King

Velocity: 2,949 FPS

This was a real surprise,as the Sierra Manual only lists 2,700 FPA from a 20" barrel. This should drop about 16 MOA at 600 yards. I'll test and let you know the results.

One prone 200 yard group was an amazing 5/8" for five rounds. All others were .5 MOA. I LIKE THIS RIFLE!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Not a mousegun shooter, but they are fun!
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:00:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.94)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:11:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.71.55)

Since your not a mouse gun shooter and it will only do 1/2 moa at 200 I'll tell you what; I will take it off you hands and even pay the shipping!

In all seriousness sounds like you have a real keeper and don't change a thing. As soon as I can throw some together and get to a range I will let you know what they do from a 700P, in the interest of inquiring minds.

Thanks Again,
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:13:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.73.254)

Re: 300WSM, "there are not any good short actions with the proper bolt face". What is wrong with the Win M70 Classic SA that was pretty much designed for the WSM? I'm fully aware of the M700's long career with the military (and LE) but c'mon!
Mr. A ;-) <asimon@gj.net>
Not in the land of Stren, Big Red W, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 15:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.173)

Anyone else hear or have any more news on this?
 
 

The July 2001 issue of the Marine Corps Gazette reports that the USMC Snipers are testing a 6.5mm. 142gn Sierra in a WSM case @3186 fps. Rifle platforms are Armalite AR T-10 and Knights SR-25 w/24-26" bbls, also testing Lightforce Scopes with "Special Reticle".

This set-up delivers 408 more fpe @ 550 Mtrs. than AA 11 165 gn. Serria Sniper .308.
 

The 6.5 WSM stays supersonic beyond 1500yds.
 

When compared against bolt guns on hits on multiple (12x12) targets @ 550 yds, the AT 10/SR-25 the avg. shot/hit times were, on avg. 3-4 sec. as compared to 9-10 with the bolt guns. First shot hits were (in all winds) 93% for the 6.5 WSM, as compared to 80% for the 308. These tests were performed by experienced USMC, USA, and USN-SEAL Snipers alternating in relays with the their Bolt Guns then the test Semi-Autos.
 

(information as as related to me from a friend on the phone)
 
 
 
 
 
 

ironman0311 <ironman0311@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 17:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.24)

Sinister, the base you speak of is an old Nike Base. Out of serveice for many years now. A tourist attraction. Ranges are closed.

Guys asking to have bbls installed. Pay the cash and have the action trued in addition to the bbl screwed on. With the 300 Win make certain you know what chamber you are getting. If you are handloading have it cut long. If you are using factory loads have it cut for the bullet length you will shoot. Big difference between Federal factory Civilian 190 grains and what you can get out of either the Navy load or hand loads. The latter two are way longer and the velocity goes way up.

Darren thats in yards and no shooting required on the property other than blanks.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 17:21:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.179)

I never brought a camera tripod on a stalk because of the bulk and because its easier to skip that and use some sticks lashed together if need be and FFP permits.

I did use them when photographing the objective though if that was required. The pictures come out far better.

As far as neck tension, the only answer I have for that is a 12 pack of cold local beer and a girl named Maria Paula.

SERIOUS NOTE:

I am going to work on an article for the roster on information gathering for the sniper. If anyone wants to pitch in their two cents feel free and once my draft is finished, I can email it to those who might have something to add so we get the best quality product in the training section we can.

Best Rag guards,
 

Jefe
 

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, July 09, 2001 at 18:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

I meant that the sticks got cut before the FFP and were used in the FFP if the terrain worked for that. Not that you should cut the sticks and prepare them in the FFP.
 

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, July 09, 2001 at 18:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

6.5 WSM: All the 264 wildcats have potential. My favorite is my 6.5-06 out of a 21" Hart barrel. Gives me 1" groups at 300 yds with 142 MKs all day and it's easy on the shoulder and the budget. For 1500 yds I'd use a 338 Lapua. None of the standard 30 cal bullets come close to the BC of the 6.5's so 1500 is reasonible.

I sure hope the USMC has a big budget for barrels, 3200 fps is going to eat them like crazy.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 18:16:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

I would say that the number one factor in selecting a custom smith is HIS reputation, not just his guns reputations. You buy a little piece of the gunsmith when you pick one if his guns. Not only are you going to be dealing with him on the initial purchase but also for repair work if anything goes awry. It doesn't take a real hard perusal of the archives to pick up on one M40 copier who is slower than shit and who is hard as hell to get a decent gun out of.

Pick one of the regulars on this site and you will be safe.

Out
 

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 19:12:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.93)

There are a few 40x recievers out there with short bolts with Magnum .540 bolt faces, as well as the older 350 rem mag 700's. Remington will have a 700 in the 300 WSM for 2002. this will solve the problem alltogether.

George Out
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 19:41:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

I have before, but it depends on the AO. I normally get the most use out of tripods when doing urban ops and when doing concealments. It's mostly a school thing IMO, but it does have some usage IRL. Just one more club in the bag, so to speak.

USMC and 6.5mm/WSM. Interesting, this is the 1st I've heard about it. Last year at Perry they were talking about playing with the 6.5/284, and I think that's a better bet right now. 142's at 3200 sounds like a recipe for short barrel life, not to bag on that too much because I'd love to have one out in the woods. 21 minutes of elevation gets you from 100yds to 1000yds, and you need maybe 4 minutes of wind at 1000. Cool. I think the 7mm/WSM has more potential for longer barrel life and should be just a little better than the 7RemMag. Why does everyone ignore the 7mm? Wish Sierra would pull their heads out and copy the 180gn JLK. Plus I'd like to see a hardcore(tungsten or DU) round being tested because there's a lot of class III and (less often) class IV stuff out there these days. Think you're just going to make 1st round head shots at 600yds?
Think again. Semper Fidelis..Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 19:43:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

Semper Fi,
Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 20:22:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.22.212.194)

Wes, I will shoot either my Rice or Gardner built rifles against anything and that includes Chandlers.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 20:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.21)

1. Is it true that most of the "rifle building" of the Chandler rifles is outsourced?

2. Is there really $5000+ worth of work that can go into a Remington based rifle?

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 21:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 21:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.22.212.194)

Answer: Yes, some work is outsourced, I don't think that's a secret.

"2. Is there really $5000+ worth of work that can go into a Remington based rifle?"

Answer: Not in my opinion. However, just because a Rolex doesn't keep better time than a Casio doesn't mean there isn't value in a Rolex. The Chandler name has a great deal of prestige. Owning one of their rifles can be worth the extra money to some folks. That's ok, this is America after all.

I had a M40A1 built by a local guy nobody knows. It took seven months and cost $2,100. It shoots as well as a Rolex, er ah...I mean Chandler.

Again, just my opinion but if you have a M40A1 built to spec. by any competent riflesmith it will be the equal to any other except for the Gucci logo.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 21:56:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.54)

I complained to Leupold Service representative that I did not like the fact they send the repaired scope back without the battery and that I had to buy a new one before I could not even test whether the scope now worked or not. They promised to send me a new one with sime other stuff.

Today, after a week of their reply I got the battery and a pretty stylish Leupold baseball cap.

So it took one week to fix the scope and another to fix the rest of their service. I think Leupold handled it pretty well and I am a happy customer.

So to give credit to where it is due, Leupold warranty service works very well.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:33:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.119.78)

I am planning to buy both a Camelbak Thermobak system and a Eagle Industries AIII-pack. Does the 100oz version of the Thermobak fit into the Eagle bags internal hydration systems compartment ? I believe the 70oz fits well but I am unsure whether the bigger one fits as well.

The idea is to purchase a system that works together and independently so all info is welcome. I would prefer the 100oz Thermobak because it is easier to have a lot of water than not to have enough of it.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:37:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.119.78)

Mike
Are the Black Hills 190's you speak of, the factory ammo they sell?

THANKS to every one that got me hooked up with George. Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:38:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.120.66.111)

Some thoughts on the Chandler Sniper taken from my recent response to a discussion group thread at another site. I'm thankful we have many choices out there. For what it's worth, here's the background on my choice. I was considering offering an advance apology for this tome, but since I don't post that often, I'll consider this making up for lost time.

1. The Chandler Sniper is a mission-specific weapon. It is designed and built to be "grunt proof" (and beyond) while maintaining sub-MOA accuracy in extremely abusive, real-world field conditions. (Much better accuracy is possible in the hands of a well-trained shooter.) The Chandler has been dropped hard from several feet off the ground, knocked against trees, scope-banged and abused in other ways without loss of zero and accuracy. It will do this month after month and continue to perform out to a thousand without a hitch. Personally, I find that to be a confidence builder. For the LE sniper or other professional? I would say that benefit is priceless.

2. Having said everything in #1 above, what about the price? Outrageous? For the person who wants a rifle that is guaranteed to do all of the above and more, not really. Of course, my opinion may be discounted as hopelessly biased becaues I'm a Chandler owner, but hear me out. Building a Chandler with the above described features/capabilities is very labor intensive. You pay for that labor. The builders are carefully selected former Marine armorers who are very good at building ONE TYPE OF RIFLE.

3. To re-emphasize: the Chandler is a special-use weapon build to exceed commonly accepted specifications, including those of the Marine Corps as they apply to a sniper weapon system. It is NOT a benchrest rifle, hunting rifle or "everyday" tactical rifle. I say that because part of the problem "out there" is that anyone with the desire and some skill can put together a match barrel, custom stock, mil-dot scope and custom-bed action and call it/sell it as a "tactical rifle" or "sniper rifle." The difference in cost, value and performance lies in the design, function and purpose for which a rifle is built, not simply the action upon which it is based or other common feature.

4. Finally, why do I own a Chandler? Even though I'm not a military/law enforcement professional, I enjoy owning and shooting a rifle that is of exceptional quality and considered by many in the shooting law enforcement and military professions to be the best OF ITS KIND. Pride of ownership certainly is part of the equation. There are other outstanding rifles out there; many cost less, a few cost in the same ball park. Do you need to spend $5,000 for a quality rifle? No. Is it reasonable to spend that much on what I've described? Obviously I believe so. Again, the difference is design, labor investment and purpose/use. I don't believe there are many builders out there who possess the extensive knowledge and skill required to build a rifle that stands apart. I could have bought one of several other tactical rifles for $2,000-$2,500, give or take some. But as a student of military history and with an eye for the unique and exceptional, I chose a Chandler. Whatever your decision, do your research, talk to a lot of people and maintain an open mind and desire to learn. Having done that, chances are your final decision will be much more gratifying.
Tim Crabb <tbcrabb@knology.net>
Columbus, GA, USA - Monday, July 09, 2001 at 23:59:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.214.37.144)

Before I post this I would like to say that this is not meant as a flame and that I do not own a custom built rifle (yet). In response to points 1 & 2 of your post:

1. The Chandler Sniper is a mission-specific weapon. It is designed and built to be "grunt proof" (and beyond) while maintaining sub-MOA accuracy in extremely abusive, real-world field conditions. (Much better accuracy is possible in the hands of a well-trained shooter.) The Chandler has been dropped hard from several feet off the ground, knocked against trees, scope-banged and abused in other ways without loss of zero and accuracy. It will do this month after month and continue to perform out to a thousand without a hitch. Personally, I find that to be a confidence builder. For the LE sniper or other professional? I would say that benefit is priceless.

The implication here is that Chandler is the only rifle builder that has the knowledge, material and capability to produce such a weapon. I agree that a weapon capable of this level of performance when ones life is on the line is priceless, however I do not believe that this confidence should lie within the name.
 

2. Having said everything in #1 above, what about the price? Outrageous? For the person who wants a rifle that is guaranteed to do all of the above and more, not really. Of course, my opinion may be discounted as hopelessly biased becaues I'm a Chandler owner, but hear me out. Building a Chandler with the above described features/capabilities is very labor intensive. You pay for that labor. The builders are carefully selected former Marine armorers who are very good at building ONE TYPE OF RIFLE.

I agree that this process is very labor intensive and that the labor commands a certain price, but again the implication is that Chandler's time is worth more than that of other builder of equal quality rifles. This said, go back to the outsourcing issue. What about the rifle builder that builds a rifle of equal quality and invests his own blood, sweat and tears in every aspect of the project from beginning to end?

I am not saying that one rifle is better than another, but if you have $5,000 to spend on a rifle and can get a rifle of equal quality for ..lets say...$2,500, wouldn't you rather do this and then use the other $2,500 for ammo?

Semper Fi
 
 
 
 

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 00:56:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.132.221)

There is no "magic formula" to a fine tactical rifle, and no "lock" on the ability to build them... and there are many super 'smiths that will build an M40, or one of the varients, that is cosmetically, and machanically equal to chandler's gun.

If you want a "Name Brand" for statis reasons, then go for it, and enjoy the hell out of it... but don't for a minute, think your stick is somehow superior to someone else's...
... fine barrels, action preping, bedding, and a "kewl paint job" are not secret, black magic, arts.

You can even be the sub-contractor of your own M40, have each aspect of the gun done by the best in the business (as chandler does) AT THAT PART or the process...
... and do it as well, and it will look as "Kewl", shoot as well, and be as "grunt proof" as chandler's guns... and you will have $2,500 to $3,000 left over to play with.
 

"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 01:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)

GO AHEAD AND TAKE A SHOT AT ANOTHER SLING AND MILDOT MASTER.

WHEN: NOW
HOW LONG: ......UNKNOWN
WHAT TO DO: SEND AN EMAIL TO: freebee20010709@aspiringtech.net

Same as before....
 

Getting the family unpacked....

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <freebee20010709@aspiringtech.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 03:13:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Ken - please enter me in any free drawings for the next week or so, I am expecting my new Autuaga rifle from Rusty in a couple of weeks and it will need a sling. Can one ever have too many mildot masters?

Take care
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 03:26:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.182.48.47)

Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 05:05:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.60.64)

Last night Andy and I packed up and went to our range to ring some steel after dinner. We had walked back to the 250 yard position and set our stuff down. When we looked back at our targets there was someone walking along the top of the berm behind the targets. We picked up our stuff and went back to the target line. The fellow was one of the many Mexican field hands that work in the area and he was fishing in the pond behind the berm. I told Andy that this was probably the fellow's sole relaxation after a long day in the fields and that we could always shoot another time so we quietly left.
In the future we will be posting a "sandwich board" sign in the laneway leading to the pond with a Warning and a keep out message. We will also be installing our range flag at the end of the laneway.
We are willing to share "our spot" but have to be so careful. This was a reminder to always do a detailed search down range every time before shooting. Shooting is a lot of fun but we've always got to remain diligent because one accident or even a close call would ruin it forever.
Be careful out there guys.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 12:11:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

I don't even use the heavy rings and bases that many do. I use the Leupold duel dovetail mounts and rings and have never had any problems. I don't swap scopes around that often so I have no need for a quick detatch feature, more money in my pocket for ammo.

The only thing that you would have that I don't that may break on mine would be the heavy steel trigger guard and I could put one on for a couple of hundred dollars. (If I was worried about it)

The abuse you talk about would damage the scope more than the rifle. I have always felt the scope is the weak link in the tactical rilfe system. Unless you have the add on metal sights you still have a $5000.00 stick if the scope gets broke. I, on the other hand, only have a $1500 one.

I won't argue that Chandler doesn't build a great rifle but is it better than any of mine?? If I put a steel trigger guard on mine I would put it up against yours anyday in all of your tests. My 308 with the Pac Nor barrel will shoot .25 groups with a target scope and probably better with a better shooter. But then I don't use a target scope I use the LR for tactical shooting so I am back to around a .5 group but thats still better than it needs to be.

I will close by saying that I was hunting coyotes 2 years ago and took a nasty fall on frozen ground and went head first into the ground on top of my rifle, it hit on the scope (a 3.5x10LR) hard enough to ruin the elevation knob and it was only off about 6" to the left when I fired it for zero. I think that says a lot for the rings and bases when 200lbs slams it into the frozen ground and it still holds a close zero. Just my opinon and you know what they say about those.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 13:32:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

I am aware that the McMillan standards are the M40A1-A4, but does anyone have any experience with the McHale stock? What are the opinions of the use of this stock on a tactical rifle? Thanks.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 13:36:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

I saw the Valtro at the last two SHOT shows and was also very impressed. Glad to see they are finally available.

Thanks
Ned
www.m-guns.com
Ned <metalmaster@m-guns.com>
3R, MI, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 13:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.89.137.5)

On the McHale stoick. I had one on a Remington 700 SA and liked it. Similar feel to the HS Stock.

On Chandler rifles. I have seen the work it is outstanding but the cost does not seem to be justified, to me. Using a Rolex for comparison will not work. The Chandler starts out as a Remington just like all the others. It uses the same parts as the others and is put together in the same fashion with the same techniques and equipment by people trained at the same place, capable of the same quality, so why does it cost more? Because people will pay it. They are without a doubt a great rifle but no better than a Rice or Gardner, or several others, built weapon and cost twice as much. This is not to flame Chandler they are doing fine with huge back log of weapons to be made. By the way the Rolex costs 1.5 times what a Omega does and the Omega is a better watch. I own an Omega Semper Fi

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 14:03:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.37)

Only about half my posts are being accepted by the list. The other half indicated "you are not set up to post". Anyone else experiencing this frustrating phenomena?

On Chandler Rifles...I love mine. Was it worth it? I think so, which in the final analysis is what really counts. Half the fun was working with Norm Jr. as the project progressed.

I'm sure that George and Jerry build fine rifles and one is in my future, I'm sure. For tactical rifles, I have my Chandler Gun, My M40A1 clone...nicely done by a local hi-power gunsmith, and my Geoff Corn M25. I'm pleased with all of them.

Other projects...I'm building a high grade .284 Winchester on a custom Mexican Mauser. Metal work and Krieger barrel, Blackburn bottom metal and trigger. English walnut stock that I'm stocking myself. I'll have about $2K in the whole thing. If I had a name stockmaker do it I'd have been looking at $5K because of the labor intensive stocking and checkering process. Worth it? Again, only you can decide. My firearms are "special" and add to the experience and joy of the hunt...well worth it!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 14:25:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.126)

Last chance for anyone who wants to look it over and pitch in their two cents before I send it to Marius.

Thanks to Kevin for contributing and I encourage folks to pitch in so we get a better product on the board.

Besides, I dont know how to "uze spellchek."
 

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 14:29:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.30.103.130)

I think what we are seeing is the same thing that happened first with custom M1911s and with MP5s after 1986. Too many buyers willing to pay top dollar for a scarce resource. Additionally if you calculate into the picture LE agencies that have lots of confiscated narco dollars that can ONLY be used for equipment purchases and you end up with $5k rifles with FACTORY Remington 700 receivers.

If you think about: If there were no buyers for $5k rifles, there would be no manufacturers for them. The buyer is the reason for these prices, not the manufacturers.

Also some people just have to have the TOP-DOLLAR tool because they want to buy their way above the rest of the group with their TOYS. What I mean is that it is often (not allways) the same phenomen as with cars. People buy Corvettes just to be able to show off their friends they "made it". Some tactical shooters buy the most expensive toys, not because they need it, but because they can AFFORD it. I have even heard that some people buy Chandler rifles as an investment. I think that is really stupid, but then again some people buy Porsches for the same reasons. Both are manufactured and designed to be used HARD. Anything else is stupid.

Chandler rifles are definately good rifles but I do not really think they are worth the extra expense above what a decent Jerry Rice or Gardner rifle costs.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 16:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

On the subject of custom guns v "off the shelf" ones.

When you get a custom gun you are getting:

1. A guarantee of accuracy.
2. Someone to cry too when the gun doesn't shoot like you think it should.
3. A gun built to your specs.

When you buy an off the shelf you get:

1. No guarantee of accuracy.
2. A 20 year old sales clerk at the Wal-Mart or if you are lucky a saleman at a gun store who will look at you crazy when you complain that your Savage 110 won't hold 1 moa.
3. A base of which to spend money on to get where you want to be ( a reciever on which to put on a new trigger, barrel, stock, etc).

Bottom line is if you have the money to buy a custom gun then get one. If you can't afford it then buy a VS and a shit load of ammo.

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 16:38:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.26)

Pat the 6.5-06 is great. I've only had the chance to shoot to 350 yards lately but I'm getting about 1 - 1.25 inch 5 shot groups at 300 yds out of that Hart 21" heavy fluted barrel. This rifle seems to like 142 MK's, with 49.1 gr IMR 4350, Fed210M primers and I've been using Rem 25-06 nickel cases necked up (got a good deal on a 1000, not really a big Rem case fan). I put a US Optics 10x SN6 on it with their rings and base that was built for the action. I estimated about 2750 - 2800 fps out of the short barrel but I believe it's closer to 2900 based on the MOA adjustments from 100 - 300 yds. Appears to need about .75 MOA less than generated by my computer so it must be a little faster. The whole package with a McHale fully adjustible stock and scope weighs in at about 11 1/2 lbs. I might leave the 300 WM home and take this one to the Sniper Paradise match down in Texas come this Oct. It's got a nice balance to it.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 17:59:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 19:58:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.243.125.148)

Only some posts accepted? FUNNY! You sure your capitalisation is what it should be? Remember that Ken wrote that part of the script to be case sensitive. Thus {wsaa@proaxis.com} is NOT the same as {Wsaa@proaxis.com}. Ditto with the password. That is the only thing I can think of. Ken, you have any other thoughts?

Jefe,
Don't waste any time, do you! I just luv that. Don't worry about the "uze spellchek" - Roger's got nothing to do in any case! :-)

Roger, hope you're reading this and seeing something else is coming your way shortly, apart from those two I just sent ya!

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:12:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.28)

Personally I have put my rifle together over the years, from a VS, and it's run me under $2K. I have a McMillan A-2 stock bedded by McMillan, all the custom work done on the action by Jeff Hicks formally of Answer Products, a SS Lothar Walther barrel, a Remington trigger adjusted to a crisp and clean 2.5lbs and a steel trigger guard. The rifle shoots consistant .25 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I had to do it this way because of lack of funds but if I was going to just go buy a custom I would go with a Gardner or Rice. I can't see spending that much on a Chandler. Actually my friend Steve is in this position now and we were looking for a good custom 300WM for him. He looked at the Chandlers and almost fell off his seat. He's going to be going with George Gardner when his funds come around.

Now onto a new question. I have a friend, actually the above mentioned Steve, that's into reenactments for WWII. He would like to reload blanks for his 30-06 Garand. Anyone know where to get blank dies or if there's any trick? Also he's going to reload shotgun blanks, any help there would be appreciated. Thanks.

Rob

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:19:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.173)

I need some input - good, bad or indifferent. Take a look at peteR's Rem700 update article. I'm playing a bit with style sheets and seeing if I can:
 

• Make the pages easier to keep uniform
• Easier to change all should we want to change the colour schemes etc. - one file per section (like Articles) instead of every file
• Play a bit with the overall display, like the full justification on this. IOW, for the "computer illiterate" out there :-), the "white space" between words are adjusted to have the left and right margins both straight lines, and not the "jagged edge" one normally sees everwhere, including here on the Roster, on the right-hand side.

 

When you mail me your comments (rather in my mail than here, since it is not quite relevant to discussions - I'll post the consolidated replies if you guys want), please tell me:

• Which brwoser you're using
• Whether you've disabled style sheets (or got your own)

 

Thanks for the help.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:22:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.28)

I've been monitoring the situation over the last few days, so I've seen it coming. Got the two you just sent. Will start on them tonight.

Keep the articles coming, fellas!
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.160.1.81)

Anybody got a pet load for an AR15 with a shorty upper? I think it should hold 2 moa at 300yds. Barrel is a 1/9 Bushmaster. Bought some Sierra 69gr match, Hornady 52gr match, and Hornady VMax60gr ballistic tip. Powder on hand is Hogdon BLC-2, Varget, Vitta Vori N140, Win748, and IMR4895.
Gonna use it for 3 Gun Matches. Max distance is under 300yds. Targets are steel gongs about 10" in diameter.
I tried my DCM load in it, but no luck. The 75gr bullets are just too heavy for the 1/9 shorty ak upper.
55gr ball is real good up close, but at 300yds it is not working all that good. I can't use SS109 at the matches. Too bad, it works pretty good.

Would I spend the money for a custom Tactical Rifle? Sure. It beats spending money on a cheap rifle to make it shoot like a good custom rifle. Spend the bucks one time on the rifle, and then you don't have worry about what to buy next.
 

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Out Back , KY, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.106.33)

You are correct. There has been no discussion whatsoever about buying an "off the shelf" rifle versus a custom.

Bill B.,

If the SS109 works, just pull the bullet and replace it with something comparable that is legal. I know a few guys that shoot service rifle that like to shoot M852. They pull the bullets remove .5gr of powder and reseat the bullet. They say that this is more accurate than anything they can reload.

Semper Fi
 
 

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 20:47:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

thanks
Shooter <biggun762@hotmail.com>
bean, town, USA - Tuesday, July 10, 2001 at 21:00:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 167.234.101.150)

Just a note to thank you for keeping Ken out of trouble while I was off eating sushi. The Rock was actually fun, got my scuba certification thanks to Gunny Legowski, spent New Year's in Ropungi and got to Korea for a shopping trip ( any one need a mink blanket?)

I'm back now and hope to get out to some of the matches.

Domo Arigato gozaimasu

Kim
Kim Hunter (The Major) <kim@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 01:21:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Okay gang ---- we have a winner here... number 23 was picked (by the Major) .... Number 23 points to Kevin Mussack's entry...

Congratulations Kevin!...

Kevin... please forward your shipping info to me - I will notify the respective vendors:

Mildot Enterprises (Bruce Robinson) http://www.mildot.com

Tactical Intervention Specialists (Mike Miller) http://www.tacticalintervention.com

thanks all!

Ken :)

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 01:34:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Two Shoes

Dos Zapatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 01:55:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.163)

If we are all done "pissing in each others oatmeal" over this custom rifle thing can we move on...? Oh, let's add factory rifles to the list, too.

Let's face it, 99% of us could live with the straight factory 700 PSS or Winch 70 Stealth. Good Luppie mounts and scopes complete the vision.

Very few of us need a "hardened" rifle. Most are stuck with what is issued and will live with it. The police marksman certainly can.

Marines and other services have other mission requirements, that cops don't generally have, making the equipment requirements different. Still, I'll bet the PSS/Stealth package would work for most applications.

We all fantasize about the 1000 yard shot, but in reality is it's rare, and even in the event of a superb marksman the shot requires a bit of luck. We are getting entirely to wrapped up in "what if's" rather than reality.

Still, the beauty is that we have choices. Something most cops and service members don't have...consider yourself to be lucky that you are better armed than most and live in a country where you can still exercise that choice...

Hey! How about that Babylonian tuperware!

Semper Fi,

Wes
P.S. Who's still wearing his Seiko Divers watch...
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 02:21:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.46)

I bought an early model PSS, After a few years, I had Tac-Ord customize it and got fitted with new glass. Hence the damn near $5k rifle. The cost is well justified. Tac-ord, Jerry Rice, and others will make you whatever you want, however outlandish. Save the duckey-bones and get a custom gun.

In the Quantico Va Area, any good places to shoot? Ken H., I think I asked you this before, too many malt inflicted braincell deaths, I forgot what you mentioned.

Thanks and Semper Fi

Lieuten-a-date Kushnir
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
The Big Suck, Quantico, Va., USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 02:23:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.85.1)

What's wrong with Seiko divers watches?

Kush
Kush <matchking175@hotmail.com>
Q-town, Va, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 02:25:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.85.1)

Questions night for me.........sorry
Went through this months Roster, and either am missing it, or it's somewhere else.
Someone, posted about a spotting scope that was supposed to be the cat's meeow...
It was a different brand than I had ever heard of or seen.....
If someone remembers that scope, and what the name is, and or where to get them, pls hit me offline.
Gray matter challenged tonight.
Thanks

Two Shoes
Dos Zapatos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 03:14:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.179)

Thanks for any input.
Gunny <biggun762@hotmail.com>
bean, town, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 04:13:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.54.76.172)

Dustin
Dustin <dustinsmart@hotmail.com>
College Station, TX, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 05:37:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.109.166.146)

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 06:03:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.243.125.67)

Just saw your post asking about 30-06 blank dies. If you read my post following yours you'll see a link to peteR's article where he discusses getting dies from loading his own blanks. C-H4 or something like that - can't remember and too lazy to look.

Or just click here and go read it.

Marius
 

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 06:12:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Time for PT.....

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 08:37:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.168)

Welcome Home!

I have heard a REALLY good .22 Rimfire range opened somewhere in the Nokesville,VA. Have you heard about it??????????
 

OOOOOPs! ;-)
 

Ducking from HEAVY incoming fire, in no rain today
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 10:09:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.32)

Assuming speed of target remains constant and we are NOT factoring for any wind.

If my lead on the target is 2" at 100 yds, does the lead remain the same at 600 yds or is this an MOA angle that becomes 12" at 600 yds. Also do we need to add anything for Time of Flight at 600 yds. I usually just SWAG it on this and hope for the hit.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:01:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

It's all about time-of-flight and target speed (leaving the wind factor out of the equation). (Target speed in FPS) * 12 * time of flight (in seconds) = lead value (in inches).

1 MPH = 1.466 Feet per second or 17.592 Inches per second
 
 
 
 
 

Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:20:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

Lead also depends on whether or not you're going to shoot leading edge or center mass. To shoot leading edge you'll need to subtract the desired depth into the target from the calculated lead.

For example:

A 3 mph mover is going about 4.4 FPS (52.8 inches)
A 168 30 caliber bullet @ 2650 fps will take about .25 second to get to 200 yards.
Lead would be about 13 inches.

To shoot center mass you lead the desired POI by 13 inches.

To shoot leading edge you need to subtract the distance from the leading edge to the desired POI within the target or you'll be shooting his buttons off. For a 12 inch thick target area I'd subtract 6 inches from the lead to get a final lead value of 7 inches.

I think I have this correct, someone straighten me out if I'm wrong.
 
 
 
 

Dave King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:37:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:40:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Main reason I'm posting is because I wanted to include a world class custom smith that gets little or no mention here. Terry Cross at KMW should not be left out of your short list of possible builders.

He is the same guy that designed and sells the Pod-Loc seen else where on this site but his main business is custom bolt gun work. The first work I saw from him was on a U.S.Marshals S.O.G. Department rifle. It was a Rem 40X .308 that had been stocked, barreled and hardened. The detail work on the rifle was outstanding and the rifle was shooting bug holes with Fed.Match. We have since had a total of seven rifles built by KMW and he will continue to get our business. It takes a while to get but he stays in touch on the project and it is very worth while when it falls out of the UPS truck. We have Chandlers, TBA and several other quality guns in our area and his is at least as good as theirs.

He keeps a backlog of work and will not let a rifle leave his shop until he has done the initial break-in and is satisfied with several consecutive groups. He has several pages of customer references complete with contact information for each. He is also one of us. By that, I mean he actually gets out and walks the walk. I haven't talked to him since the event but I was told he and his team mate took first place at the North American Sniper Championship in February. Both were shooting KMW rifles during the 4 day event.

Sorry for the spew. I don't owe this guy anything except my honest opinion. We are a thousand miles from him and he always treats us with honesty, enthusiasm and professionalism. I see him post here occaisionally and he doesn't blow his own horn. Knowing him, he never will either. Just wanted to pass on our experience with a shop that has several very happy customers many miles from his shop. ***maybe I'll get a cool KMW shirt if he sees this!**

Good Day.
Tom
Tom <Steelpl8t@aol.com>
Tacoma area, WA, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 15:59:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.179)

First let me say I have a weakness for custom 1911s, so we know I'm not right in the head..

Have shot the Storm match against some pretty good folks with some mighty expensive gear [some provided by our tax money] for the last three years...I shot a factory, off the shelf rifle with good optics and a LOT of boolits through it. Didn't embarass[sp?] myself one bit. Was looking forward to this years match, but I guess it's history. Point is, as much as I'd like to have a custom sniper rifle, I'd rather spend the $s on ammo and travelling to shoot Praire dogs etc.. I think, for me, the time behind the gun is more important than which gun I'm behind..

Got to shoot a SAKO TRG42 in 338 Lapua mag. friday and Sat..It shot in the .3s out to 300[all we had] and with the muzzle brake was very pleasant to shoot..
 

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 19:09:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.92.148.172)

Thanks, I will pull down some SS109, remove .5 of powder, and seat some 69gr Sierras.
I did go to the range today and shot some 52gr BTHP Match out of it. Had it loaded up to about 3000 fps. It Shot MOA. This is likely the keeper load for now. Not bad with a 14.5" barrel, and ACOG Reflex sight.
You all see where SMTC is hosting a Long Range Varmint Hunters class in Sept? Check out their website for details.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback, ky, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 20:11:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.153)

If you like the people on instant mesenger that have had to put up with Ken can get together with you and fill you in on the REAL stories from the last months ;)

Bribery and extortion, I LOVE the concepts! Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 20:50:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.203)

Try also to pull the SS109 bullets and replace them with the 60 gr VMax keeping the same powder charge. Less work!

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 21:08:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

I've seen that the general concensus of the Roster is that a 175grn Match King at 2675fps does pretty good with the 30-06 cam on a Leupold M3 type glass. My question is this: Would a 180grn Match King at the prescribed 2700fps match the trajectory of the cam better? Just wondering as I'm a new M3 user and want to know.
Thanks.

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 23:25:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.61)

go to : http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/Ballistics308.htm
and snoop a bit for data.

Theres more, but I can't remember where its at...................
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Wheezing & Geezing in Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 10:06:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.39)

Great site. I've been lurking a long time but this is my first post.
I was a usmc sgt (0311) and rifle range coach but I'm pretty inexperienced in shooting w/ a scoped precision rifle. So I've got a newbie question.....

I was in the desert in eastern WA a couple of weeks ago, shooting my Rem PSS .308. It's scoped w/ a Springfield Armory Gov't Model (1st gen) 4.5x14x56. (I know, I know...I'm saving up for Loopy...)
Ambient temp= 100 F, wind= f.v. 3mph, sunny, range was 250 yds.
The mirage was really kicking my butt, making it difficult to focus on the tgt. I noticed, though, that the mirage through my Steiner
7x50 binos was not nearly so visible. (The barrel was cold, and the scope was set on 7x, same as the binos). Now, I know there's a big difference in the quality of the two optics, but don't understand why it would be manifested in this way. Can anyone advise why?

Also, has anyone had any experience with Iron Brigade Armory's PSS Tune-Up package? Seems like it would be a good deal...

Sorry for such a long post....thanks in advance for any advice.

Semper Fi
Justin Reese <WaveManMES@netscape.net>
Muncie, IN, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:13:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.60.55)

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:21:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Semper Fi
Justin Reese <WaveManMES@netscape.net>
Muncie, IN, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:48:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.60.55)

First... mirage is more serious in optical scopes with large objective lenses.
... and, Second, it is less in binoculars than a single scope of the same dimensions.

In bins... the brain takes the "best" image at that moment, and processes it.
Because the optical paths are not the same, the amount of mirage at any moment is not the same, so the brain will constantly be processing both images, and making the best out what it gets from both.
If you are in the same conditions, and close one eye, the mirage will seem to get worse.

The larger the front objective, the worse the mirage... it you take a piece of cardboard with a 1" hole in it, and place it in front of the "Gen One"... you will see the mirage effects diminish substantially.

Lupita used to make screw in "apertures" that went in the front of the scope... each had a different sized hole in it... but people didn't understand how to use them, so they were discontinued.
"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 19:54:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.9)

Looks like Wyoming and the D&L shoot will be a go for me this year again I found a partner. I nearly got to shoot with and "OLD" contibuter that hasn't been around in a long time Pat L. But we just got hooked up a little late.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 20:33:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Justin asked about the Chandler tune up package for the PSS...
Undoubtedly, top drawer, like most of their work...spendy.

First, most of the PSS's shoot pretty well out of the box. Better than we can, in most cases. Unless you're going to trash that shitty palm swell PSS stock for a McMillan I wouldn't do it.

Better yet, have George Gardner or Jerry Rice take the gun and restock it and work it over if you want. Much cheaper. Buy the Loopie scope with the remainder

If it were me, I'd get the new scope, invest in training, smile and be happy until you feel you need better equipment.

Semper Fi,

Wes Howe
(2502/1302)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 20:40:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.60)

I know that for factory loaded match ammo, the Fed GMM (168 or 175) appears to be the default champion.

Black Hills also makes a BTHP match load in both 168 and 175 also. Does anybody have any experience, good or bad, with this stuff? Price wise, they seem to be comparable.

I guess the proof's in the x-ring. Any users?

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 23:33:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.37)

Are you incognito?

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 23:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.37)

I've shot a fair bit of both Fed GM and BH stuff, and I prefer the BH. It seems more consistent out of my rifles. Plus, I can get it cheaper than I can Fed GM. Try Georgia Precision if you don't have a local discount hook-up. They've got the best price on BH .308 168/175gr that I've been able to find. Click my name to go to thier BH ammo page.
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 00:05:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.42.230)

Good luck.
5db <info@accu-shot.com>
Wichita, Ks, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 02:53:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.236.19.188)

Undude, Where can I pick up a fastex buckle for 1.5 in webbing? I lost the male half of the belt buckel on my camelbak HAWG and camelbak has not responded to my e-mails.

Thanks a million,

Chad's Out!
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 03:36:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.236.19.154)

The H&S stocked Remingtons suffer from a few easily corrected problems. The most serious is barrel slap on the forend. Disassemble the rifle, removing the action from the stock. Inspect the inside of the barrel channel at the front of the stock. There will be a slick burnished area. That is the portion of the stock that is striking the barrel when the rifle is fired. Using coarse sandpaper, a rasp or similar tool, take about 10-15 thou off the bottom of the barrel channel in the area of the slap.

While disassembled, closely inspect the aluminum bedding block for any imperfections that may prevent the receiver from bottoming out evenly on the block. HS Precision does a superb job on their stocks but mass produced products will not one size fits all. Remove any paint, epoxy oooze, aluminum burrs etc from the block area. Do not worry, you are not going to hurt it by cleaning it up. Closely inspect the recoil lug area, making sure that the lug will seat at 90 degrees and that the recess is deep enough for the lug to bottom out. If the recess is too shallow, cut an eight of an inch out of the bottom with a mill or Dremel. On about half the rifles inspected, I have noticed that the guard bolts are impacting the inside of the bedding block holes. If this is happening to your rifle, you will see the concentric ring marks of the bolt thread pattern on the inside on the guard bolt holes, not to be confused with machining marks. They are very distinct and appear almost as knurling. Drill the guard holes out a few thousandths or 1/16 inch if easier. Replace the factory bolts with hex socket head bolts and torque the front to 65 inch pounds. Rear bolt from 50-65 inch-pounds. Experiment with the torque. You do not want to inadvertently bend the action in the stock. Most people just wind them in to 65 and leave em. Try changing the torque on the rear action bolt and test groups.

To minimize the bending moment, consider bedding the action. It is not hard if you pay attention to what you are doing and prepare the stock properly. Use MarineTex, Steel Bed, Steel or Titanium Devcon etc.

Nothing is going to fix that long POS throat except having someone pull the tube and rechamber it. If you are going to spend that kind of money, buy a good barrel and get the whole chalupa.
 

Mark. I'm with you brother, only in reverse. I tried to sell a scope. Had the buyer all lined up and everything when the Luscious Colonel asked me why there was a Mark 4 sitting on the desk. I should have been more alert by the tone but preoccupied, I innocently said, Someone needs it. It's just sitting in the safe so I'm going to sell it to him. BOOOM! "That is not what is going to happen honey." After a rather heated argument, the bottom line is I can pretty much buy anything I want. I just can't sell it afterward! I honestly don't know how their minds work. Patrick, I am very sorry.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater , FL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 04:36:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.26.65.148)

Rich asked about a Winch M70 Stealth in .223. LOVE mine. Was able to do a credible trigger adjustment following patron 'lito's instructions. Darn thing shoots about 1/2 MOA with 69 gr. Sierra MK's.
It's a keeper. Doesn't have that god awful palm swell of the PSS either!

The PSS upgrades...as mentioned can be done by yourself, if handy. I'd go that route, first.

Just back from the range. Took my M25 and M40A1 clone. Both shot magnificantly! I shot Berger 190's and Sierra 175's in the bolt gun. Just ragged clusters at 100 yards as we were zeroing and testing this evening.

Used 175's that I loaded on the Dillon 550 B, after match prepping the LC Match brass. Damn load looks to shoot 5/8" out of the M25. The Dillon DOES load good ammo! Kewl...looks like I'm going to go through quite a bit of it in the near future.

All for now, getting late, and it's back to the job hunt tomorrow.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 05:04:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.72)

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 05:16:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.204)

You may want to be careful with torques that high on any rifle without a steel floor plate and pillar bedding. There is a posibility of bending or breaking or wearing away the bearing surface under action screws. I don't know for sure.

Just a cautionary note.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 11:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

I've been lurking for some time, this is my first post.

Does anyone have experience of the Lapua Scenar bullets in 155gr and 167gr. I'm particularly looking for loads using Varget or N140. Bullets will be in 308 Lapua cases and fired from a Rem VSSF.

Any observations on how these bullets compare to Match Kings?

Regards

Ray
Ray Smith <rayokyah@omantel.net.om>
Muscat, Oman - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 11:53:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.58.12.44)

My one old PSS is on its 3rd barrel and still going and the floor plate is still the original. With that said your right to caution them but if everything is square it won't hurt to tighten them down.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 13:53:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Reference Lapua ammo

I have been using 44 grains of N140 behind the 167 Scenar and 170 gr lockbase. 167 Scenar is in the old red box factory loads while the 170 is in the new Lupua blue box loads. I use exclusively the 170 gr and have been very happy with it in my Accuracy International AW. I used to use 168 Sierras but switched to the 170 gr. No reason based on performance. I have not noticed any performance difference but I just like the lapua. I try to match the factory load and have achieve excellent results. The N140 is very consistant.

Either on will serve you well. The lapua brass is excellent quality. Hold onto them. Give me a shout if you have any questions. Thanks

Jeff in Canada
JC Wilson <blackhawk@mb.sympatico.ca>
Canada - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 13:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.200.254.110)

-Justin
Justin Reese <WaveManMES@netscape.net>
Muncie, IN, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 16:16:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.43.60.71)

I was wandering around the net today and found a picture of Andy and me at SMTC. Kewl!

http://www.stormmountain.com/photos.html

We're the (LRR2 Alternate Position) picture.

Sorry, no faces shown.....OPSEC you know.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 18:01:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Check out the review on US Optics by Mike Miller. There is a phone number at the end of the review to contact US Optics. I would call and order a catalog. Email me if you want to. See you next week.

Have a good night at the FD.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
Outback , KY, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 20:34:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.54)

Good timing on the subject! Just wrote an article for the DR on Info Gathering and touched on that a bit with the dead drop issue. I will email you a draft and would appreciate your thoughts (thanks for "volunteering!").

A picture is worth a thousand words and cameras make better pictures than I can and you are dead on about digital dissemination.

The only catch is "IF your unit has the time and capabilities to process it." And picking up info at dead drops is risky and hard to coordinate since you are usually well forward of the FFU. However, its very useful if it can be done.

We used spent star cluster tubes to store the notes in and a zip loc although the tube itself did well without the plastic bag.

The cameras we had were the "fire and forget" type and waterproof. MAKE SURE TO DISABLE THE FLASH! We painted the camo and they really paid off for us. We tried them with spotting scopes and NVDs pushed up against the lens and got some decent though not spectacular results. We were able to get Infra Red film through the S2 for live missions although I never once got to see how they came out. They just kept telling me how expensive it was.

Good Post! Look forward to your comments on the article.
 

Jefe

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, July 13, 2001 at 22:58:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.24.67.66)

What's with that tripod in the picture? Assume its been modified to handle a gun stock?

BTW, how old is Andy? How long as he been shooting?

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:07:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.43)

Finally got to shoot the Rem 700P/.308 at 600 yards today (along with 200 and 300 yards).

I was using Fed GMM 175s with the 30-06 cam on the Loopy. Good, strong 15 MPH wind blowing left to right.

At each firing line, I dialed the range in, acquired the target, squeezed, BANG - on paper and in the black.

The guys I was with were amazed with the scope. They weren't familiar with the BDC thingy and thought it was the coolest thing they had ever seen. Dial the range, no counting (and forgetting) turret revolutions and you're on paper!

I gotta admit, I initially had some trepidations at the 600 yard line but it works.

The gun is box stock with the exception of a "X" trigger job. It's a good, solid, 1MOA shooter. Now I'll just shoot the barrel out before spending any $$$ on fancy upgrades.

Thanks for the cam hints and the trigger job instructions, "X".

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:30:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.43)

What kind of velocity expectations should I look for when fireing Federal GM 168's or Black Hills 168's through a quality 20" or 22" match barrel? Considering a somewhat lighter more compact rifle for use from 0 to 600 yards.

Any comments or opinions welcome.

Thanks.
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:32:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.22.166.169)

Thanks

Sarge
 
 
 

Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:32:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.243.125.130)

Andy is 15 now. That picture was taken on our second trip to SMTC on his 13th birthday. The year prior he took Top Gun in LRR1. He's been shooting since he was six. He underwent the usual progression form airgun to .22RF to .223 to .308.
Now he's found out about girls so there are some conflicts in his shooting schedule. It's a phase......

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 13, 2001 at 23:57:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.177)

Go here : http://www.snipercountry.com/SniperSaddle.html

We got it here!

Why Coitenly!

Nyuck Nyuck

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, July 14, 2001 at 00:28:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.182)

Don't worry, he'll be back to shooting.
Girls ARE a passing phase... starts around 13 or 14.

I'll let you know when it passes... ;))

"X" <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 14, 2001 at 01:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.45)

Chad
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 14, 2001 at 04:22:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.236.16.127)

Ray,
I am a dedicated Lapua user. I normaly use the 185gr Scenars but have recently bought a box of 170gr lockbase to see what it'll do. To me, the difference is quite appearent. If you open a box of Sierra's next to a box of Lapua's, the Sierra's I've had so far were all dull, while the Lapua's come out shining like they have been hand-polished before being packed. Also, if I degrease bullets before moly-coating them, the Sierra's spawn a lot of sh*t while almost nothing rubs of the Lapua's. I know this may only be cosmetic, but I somehow trust the Lapua bullets a bit more. And then it comes down to what it's all about: shooting is 50% mind-game. You generally shoot better with equipment you trust and (at least for me) that also goes for my reloading components...

Ken,
Digital camera's are a nice idea, but beware of the folowing things:
1. Flash: make sure you can switch it off and that it then stays off. My fathers Minolta digi-cam has a flash that can be swithced off, but whenever you switch the cam off and turn it back on, the flash is on again. This, in my eyes, makes the camera unsuitable for tactical work. Same goes for those red or IR focus lights and/or anti-red-eye bulbs. Of one of those goes off while you are photographing an enemy unit, you a bound to attract a lot of attention!
2. LCD screen: Make sure you can switch it off and that it stays off, since it provides a pretty search-licht shining on your face. Especially using NODS you will be easily seen when you are using the LCD screen.
3. Controls: You should be able to operate the essentials of the camera using a non-backlit lcd screen. Again, my fathers Minolta has a rear lcd-screen that can be switched off, but you need the screen in order to manipulate the flash, white balance, resolution etc. NO GOOD for tactical use!

My advice would be to buy a good SLR (if you do not already have one) and search for a digital rear cover for it. This will be a lot more expensive, but on the long run it'll suit your needs a bit better.

L8er y'all,

Stefan
Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Saturday, July 14, 2001 at 07:48:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.46.159.37)

Thanks for the Sniper Saddle references.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Saturday, July 14, 2001 at 14:41:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.171)

Jan, don't appoligize for the length... it's a breath of fresh air.

I would say this... it's not the bedding.
I would replace the mounts... the Redfield/Leupold style dovetail "twist-lock" rings, though they appear to be strong (and they ARE), are NOT precision rings... they can feel tight going in, and still have wobble... they were last used for snipers, back in the 60's, in Viet Nam, and weren't all that great then.

You will find them on some super magnum pistols used for "steel pig" shooting, but not too many other places... NO one uses these rings for serious, lonrgrange tactical shooting.

The current base/ring set-up that EVERYBODY uses on bolt guns, is one of the better cross slot bases, like the MK4 one piece base, or the Badger one piece base... for rings, there are the MK4 rings, the Badger rings. THAT'S IT!
Guys may cheap out on some stuff... but anyone that shows up to a match with any other base/ring setup is know to be a newbee.
I lot of guys don't want to spend $250 for a base/ring set, when they can get a set of "Wally-world specials" for $48.95, but that's the way to go... there is NO OTHER way to go!

For scopes... the 3.5x10 AO is a good, general hunting scope, with a thin walled main tube. Leupold does sell a "black" version as tactical... but it's for departments that have "$0" for a budget, and wannabees.

The only scopes that can take a beating, and keep on ticking, are the MK4 line (the M1, or M3), the B&L 10x Tac... and some of the Europian inports from Khales, and Zowarski... that it... the rest are general target or hunting scopes, and don't have it where it counts.
The tube walls on these scopes are 3 to 5 times as thick, and every thing else in them, is massively constructed.

As to USO... "Ech"!! I'll pass, thank you.
 

Bad Dog <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 14, 2001 at 22:26:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.21)

The Marines "work-around" for the steel Redfield Junior was to spot weld the rings to the base.

My recommendation would be to get a good, durable one-piece steel base (Badger, Near, Autauga, etc.) and have it installed with 8-40 screws instead of the standard 6-48s. Then use a good, solid ring (Badgers or Mark 4s). There's a reason the military tries to use soldier-proof base parts -- because the Samsonite gorilla occasionally gets hold of the long-gunner's tool.

As Rick or Gooch once put it: issue a soldier two ball bearings, and lock him in an empty room. Come back in a few hours. He'll lose one, and break the other.

As for digital cameras and video on recce site, there are now lots of options for snapping/recording, then compressing and transmitting. "If your S2 can process your data" is not the point. If the mission is important enough for you to be there, to have you out as eyes and ears requiring real-time pix/tapes, then you should be issued the gear. If not, you're dabbling, and will soon spend more money and time on all that gadgetry than your unit will have invested in sniper training (time, weapons, and ammo).

Pros will be able to snap, compress, and transmit from the hide site. No movement required for passing cassettes (and busting your element). Normally the only resupply required is during extended recce for battery exchange.

Digital transmission over the air is a band-width hog, another reason for having a dedicated digital net (so you don't stomp on others, or have your files stomped on in mid-transmission (it blows to be waiting in the TOC for the freshest download to come in, and you have a beautiful shot of the top two inches of screen, snow or black screen, and a perfect bottom two inches. Plus, it took you X amount of time to download grabage before you realize that's what it is).
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 01:35:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.26.54)

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 05:09:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)

Maybe I missed something here, but I had the impression that the discussion was more oriented toward replacing or supplementing sketches and that "real time" dissemination was an afterthought.

At the Infantry level, there is usefullness for pictures during recons and basic stuff works just fine. Digital was way after my time and we just had simple 35 mm, but I can see where digital cameras will be a great asset.

Of course the unit needs the time and resources to process it, which means that they dont require real time coverage and are in a position to get film developed somewhere. Thats where I think Ken is right on point with digital dissemination. The units dont need a darkroom now, they need a laptop which are not uncommon at Battalion level these days.

And just because a unit doesnt have gear to transmit from the objective doesnt mean they are not pros. Thats why a Scout/Sniper turns in sketches etc., at debriefs with the unit. While I had to focus on whether they had access to a darkroom somewhere, Ken brings up a good point that a laptop could do the trick.

Said it before, I will say it again. A picture is worth a thousand words and should not be discounted simply because they are not real time.

And initiative is a leadership trait, thats straight out of the FM.

Good to see that it is still alive and well Ken.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 08:58:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.24.67.66)

On the shifting point of impact issue...

First, I am a Leupold man...every scope I own, with the exception of one (that I got in a trade), is that brand. Used them for thirty years and see no reason to use another brand. Have never had a failure and only returned one to the factory because it was "hanging" when adjusted for varmint shooting. That was a 1" Vari-X III 3.5 X 10 that I bought in 1985. It's on my Winchester Stealth .223 and continues to give excellent service.

Mounts...dual dovetail style give good general service, but are not to be considered "hardened". OK for hunting and varminting, but NOT tactical use. Likewise, 1" tubes are hunting/general purpose designs. Go to 30 MM for tactical use. Leupold MK IV mounts and rings are good, but my preference is Badger Rings and bases. The $250.00 or so you spend will be well worth it. Likewise, upgrading the screws to 8 X 40 will greatly enhance strength.

As an aside, the A.R.M.S. # 18 base and #22L quick detach rings are working well on my M25. Both Bravo and I use them and have had good luck with them. Although, I must say, this is my first experience with them...I am impressed.

Shifting point of impact: Whether it is caused by scope shift, bad mounts or mounting, or the rifle itself, it is simply unacceptable. Get it repaired or get rid of it...

Why? Simply put it robs you of the one thing you must always have...CONFIDENCE IN YOUR EQUIPMENT. You don't need to be wondering if everything is going to work OK when it comes time to make the shot. Whether its hunting,where you have a moral responsibility to dispatch the animal swiftly, or sniping, where you have the same responsibility, IMHO.

My cherished M40A1 clone and Chandler 6.5 X .284 are in this category. No matter when I pick them up they ALWAYS shoot dead center. A confidence builder that is INVALUABLE.

Hi-power match today at our local range. John Benjamin shot a 783 in heavy wind, with a space gun of his own design using his own barrels. John shot a range record here a couple months ago...795 out of 800 possible. THAT is going to stand for awhile. Didn't get to shoot, myself. That's what I get for being the Range Officer...

My two cents worth, for what it's worth...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 09:19:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.1)

Wes said a mouthful there. Developing confidence in your equipment is very important. My new M40A1 is still in the proofing phase for me. Until I have recorded a bunch of data and have had a long string of cold bore shots without variance the system will remain on the second string. This process will take most of the summer.

I can't imagine being a "slotted duty sniper" with a LEA and have equipment that left me in doubt. For command to allow such a case to exist is negligence in a pure form.

There are reasons why rifles like the M40A1 exist and there are mounts like Badger and scopes like Leupold. Properly combined these elements creat a system you can count on.

Hunting equipment won't make the cut.

Murphy never misses a day at work.

out
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 11:24:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.208)

Like Wes, I am a dedicated Leupold guy. Was talked in to buying my first one when I bought my first real varmint rig. It irked me to spend as much on a scope as the rifle cost. It was a 10X Leupold Silhouette AO Model (discontinued now) that we mounted on a Ruger (yes, I know.....) 77V in 22-250. I was an instant convert after the first month of using that thing. Money was very tight when I was 17, but in the late 70's there was still hay to be hauled and cattle to be moved for neighbors where I was growing up. I never, ever regreted the purchase.

In the twenty years since, I have used nothing but Leupold and currently have a Leupold LR on my .308. That scope is no where as rugged as the MK-4 series but it does ride in Mk-4 rings and NightForce bases. The gun keeps an Eagle padded scope cover with muzzle guard on it and rides in an Eagle DB-BS cover/ground pad. The only time my rifles see a hardcase is when they go "wheels up" in a plane belly en route to a comp or demo. Only zero shift I ever see is always environmental (mirage, temp, etc.) So my Leupold track record is excellent.

If anyone just has to look at options to the Leupold, I would recommend they get their hands on a NightForce NXS series. This is one of the few scopes I've seen that is equal to or tougher than the Leupold MK-4 optics. They have super positive "clicks" and the newest NXS models come with a "turret stop" that can be set so that your elevation bottoms out on your low end dope. When in doubt, bottom out the sucker and count up just like on an M1A or Garand sight. No more missed shots cause you're a full rev off your dope.

In addition to being super tough and having very thick walls on the whole tube, the optical resolution is superb. It kills my soul to say it but the average NightForce resolves better than the average Leupold MC4 glass. I would put their resolution in the same class as the Schmidt & Benders. I've seen and mounted several NightForce scopes. They are very heavy and are physically quite large. They are also expensive (same league as a Leu MK-4). I would also say they are overkill for 99% of the guys out there, but do offer a viable option for extreme use and abuse while still delivering superior resolution and stability.

I have total faith in my Leupolds and will continue to count on them, but wanted to share my experience with the NightForce optics. Everybody have a great week.

Stay safe,
Terry
Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 13:34:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.163)

Good points were brought up by Wes and Kevin; the key one IMHO being that if the gear is questionable, it can not be deployed in a LEA situation.

One thing to consider here in addition to a legal/moral responsibility to get it right, is liability. If a shooting is ever brought to trial for a wrongful death action etc., which is a reality and someone finds out about the equipment problems the department had, EVEN if they were fixed before the shooting, a trial lawyer can really make that look bad. You can bet that a plaintiffs attorney is going to dig for issues related to that during discovery.

Best thing to do for everyone I would think is to get a new system. If your dept. cant afford it, it might be better not to have it anyways.

LEA sniping is one of those definately do it right, or not at all situations due to the environment, scrutiny and potential repurcussions.

Then again, I am not a police officer.

WES:

Hats off to you for the comments about ethics

KEVIN:

Another draft in your email.
 

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 16:00:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.24.67.66)

About 20 years ago I was doing general gunsmithing for a store. A guy came in with a Redfield ring/base that you could feel the movement in the dovetailed front ring. As several mentioned, the dovetail isn't real stout and the steel isn't heat treated. The first blow may not cause any real harm, but once movement starts, the dovetail is gonna bend. This being the day before deer season, I peened the dovetail on the ring to achieve a solid fit. The guy never came back for the new mount/rings after deer season so must have worked.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 17:17:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

I'm looking for some advice/opinions/dope-slaps regarding a problem with my PSS stock. It's the standard PSS H&S w/palm swell and, while I have absolutely no complaints about its accuracy or ruggedness, it doesn't fit me too well.

By "fit", I mean three things: the angle of the grip feels awkward, the palm swell is more of a nuisance than a aide, and the LOP is too short by at least a 1/2".

First up, I'm looking at replacing the original skinny Remington recoil pad with something from Pachmayr, thus increasing the LOP (and reducing the bruising of my shoulder! heh). What are the odds this will help with with the grip problems?

If the answer to the above is "Zero", what are the possibilities of having a suitable gun guru fit this stock to me? Would it be better to step away from this stock and replace it? One of those $$$ adjustable jobs are tempting but a) out of my price range ($250 max for right now), and b) less attractive as they seem to violate the KISS law for gear.

Standing by for illumination,

Steve "El Roto" G.

P.S. - Regarding the previous query on Black Hills Match ammo, my rifle loves the stuff and I love the price from Georgia Precision.
Steve "El Roto" G <gopack@sprintmail.com>
Carrollton, TX, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 19:26:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.77.7.239)

I can't thank you enough for your responses. They all seem to point in the same direction...towards Badger mounts. I will pass this info to the primary sniper (my spouse) as usual and let you know what happens.
If this works I will owe each and every one of you. You know what it's like to live with a cranky sniper?...NEVER a good thing. The life you saved may have been mine! Were he more computer literate he would have posted these questions himself but I doubt he would have been as eloquent as I am.
Thanks again...

Jan Thomas (Mrs. Sniper I)
Jan Thomas <JanT4444@onemain.com>
Placerville, CA, USA - Sunday, July 15, 2001 at 20:10:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.119.20.91)

I think somebody had a similar problem before but I cant find the reply on that.

Mounting a Leupold 3.3x10x40 M3 scope on my remington pss 300win mag I can not zero at 100 yards.
I use badger ordnance one piece mount (long action) and medium size rings (0.823inch). At 100 yards it shoots about 1.5 MOA high and again I cant dial further down.

Any thougts or comments appreciated

Thanks

karl
Karl <kaupperl@ucsd.edu>
San Diego, CA, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 03:24:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.110.11.228)

Just in from seven hours of close combat with a piece of english walnut.

At this point, the bottom metal is inletted, the action and barrel are about 80% inletted. What a royal pain, but will be worth it when done. Once inletted the fun begins. I can finish shaping, sanding, finish, and checker.

When done I'll have a custom Mexican Mauser in .284 Winchester, 23" Kreiger Barrel, McFarland four panel checkered bolt handle, Ted Blackburn trigger and bottom metal. Mounts are custom made for the little sweetie. Scope is a matte finish 2.5 X 8X Loopie...

Got a feeling thsi rig is going to be awful rough on our local Blacktail Deer popuations...;-)

Now I know why "drop-in", fiberglass, and aluminum bedding block rifles are so popular. Not many can afford the cost of a professional gunsmith/stockmaker.

More, as the story unfolds...

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 03:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.128)

Have you tried to reposition the elevation turret so that it will allow you to dial down your 1 1/2 MOA less elevation or have you already done that and the elevation adjustment is already bottomed (topped) out?
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 04:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.73.254)

I am embarrassed. You are absolutely right.
Problem solved.
Thanks

karl

karl <kaupperl@ucsd.edu>
San Diego, CA, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 05:45:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.110.11.228)

Anyone have similar results or know of any reason not to do this in the future? Bolt gun, no gas system to contaminate.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 12:54:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

No need to feel embarrased do what I do, chalk it up to a senior moment or as I like to as "brain farts," which don't make you feel as old.
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 15:09:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.73.254)

I met Andy and Kevin when they beat my partner and I for the top shooter at Storm Mountain LRR1... they dressed alike, worked as a team and impressed me so much I had to ask how the two of them met... they both looked at me, confused, and spilled the whole son/dad thing...

I met them again for the sniper rendezvous at Storm last year... again, the Mussack "team behavior" suggests that Kevin invests mucho time with his son, as the cooperative teamwork was evident...Andy is already an impressive young man, displaying character and substance beyond his years...

The next time we meet, I'll be gathering intel on how to be such a good dad.... Kevin appears to be one of those guys you can learn alot from....

Weird how you meet so many good people at sniper matches?
 
 

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
old & tired, NJ, USA - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 16:14:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
no time , to shoot in, occupied oz - Monday, July 16, 2001 at 22:08:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.87.27.177)

Time for another riffle raffle Ken.

Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 00:41:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.158)

Have any of you taken the Percision Rifle course offered by OPS in Big Sandy, TN.? I'm thinking about going, but I'm having a hard time finding any info on the course material, subject matter and logistics. Any thoughts on how they run their outfit? Any info from someone who's taken the course, or a brief rundown from the instructor if you're lurking, would be great. At only two hours from my house, this could be a good time.

Please hit me off the roster if anything negetive is to be passed along.

Thanks in advance for any info,

Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Humid - n - Hot, Mid-Tenn, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 00:43:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.213)

Tinkin' bout a Sako at dem prices..or mabey a custom...w/optics ;->

Beat the Heat Drill Sergeant, Beat the Heat..

...Drink Water....

Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Got more humid since the last post, Swimmin' in ignorance. Gettin' delerious from the heat....Hunid ass.., Mid-Tenn, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 01:10:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.36)

I got my Mildot Master in the mail last night. Thanks to Bruce & Ken and all the rest.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 08:37:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.183)

This has been discussed on another forum but I wanted to bring it up here. I just recieved my copy of "The Techniques and Equipment of the Deadly Marksman SNIPER" (ISBN 1-84065-229-2)by SGM Mark Spicer of the British Army.

Short of a complete book review I want to say that this is an outstanding work. It is full of never before published photographs and diagrams. This book is in full color and has a lot to offer about sniper work on the other side of the pond. Unlike some other sniper books this is not a catalog of products and services. The section on camouflage is great. This is not a "coffee table" book but a serious work with much to offer.

No sniper library would be complete without this volume.

I've just picked up a copy of "The Special Forces Endurance Techniques" (ISBN 1-897884-71-0) by Dr.Chris McNab. Again I've only had a chance to skim through it so far but it has a bunch of really new information. It's about training the mind and developing endurance. It looks to be a very interesting read.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 11:36:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

"The Techniques and Equipment of the Deadly Marksman SNIPER" (ISBN 1-84065-229-2)by SGM Mark Spicer of the British Army

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
SF, CA, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 12:31:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.211.20.29)

Some of the best groups I have shot have been with reject bullets. I will buy them any chance I get. They have worked great for me in the past. Hope this helps!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 13:07:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

you know what mentioning those two books here on the Roster means, don't you? :-) In about two months' time I'll be keeping an eye on my mailbox...

Nice pic of Storm Mountain, btw.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 14:59:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Thank,
Tony
Tony <missionhorse@aol.com>
Illinois, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 15:44:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.177)

Thank,
Tony
Tony <missionhorse@aol.com>
Illinois, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 15:48:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.177)

Where di you get the copy of the new book? Thanks in advance.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 17:37:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

I got those books from The Military Book Club.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 18:11:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Any one have any bright ideas about the situation to follow; I have been using a Leupold M3 and for one reason or another, I am experiencing the worst possible elevation problem with the coarse adjustments, about ½” high. Naturally if I move it down one it will be ½” low. Now I am not going to have the M1 knobs installed but fortunately, my mount is a Badger and has 20 MOA (I think) built in. So the idea is to move the optic in the rings forward or backward just a touch and see if I can get closer to dead on. I don’t plan on chasing the sumbitch all over hell and creation but it can’t get any worse the way I see it. Any ideas on how much to move it? Thanks 1,000,000
Matt

Matt <snipermattone@aol.com>
Boulder, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 20:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.191)

Tony,

I have built one suit and significantly modified another suit bought on EBAY. Both are 2-piece BDU's with a boonie hat.

I am going to start another suit next month on a 1-piece nomex flight suit and a mesh hood of my new design.

Advantages of 2-piece:

If you are doing tracking, you can leave the bottoms behind or roll them up and carry with your web gear. If you need to stalk during the track you can just put them on. Saves on weight and heat which directly affects your attitude LOL.

Disadvantages of 2-piece:

Hot Hot Hot. Heavy Heavy Heavy. The top overlaps the pants and you sweat your arse off from your waist to the bottom of your butt cheeks.

The top rides up when you extend your arms during a crawl allowing critters to enter your nether parts. Read as crawling through a bunch of red ants :(

Takes practice to get into and out of quickly. Buttons are a bear.

Hopeful advantage of 1-piece:

Lighter in weight and cooler due to lighter material and flame resistant due to nomex.

No gaps for critters to get into.

Easier to get in and out of with zippers, specially if you are on fire.

Ghillie sites of interest:

http://users2.50megs.com/ghillie/
http://www.ghillie.com/
http://www.cartome.org/eim3/eim3.htm
http://home.chattanooga.net/~dneely/GSuit.htm
http://www.ghilliesuits.com/
http://ghilliemaker.tripod.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/sniper312/ghillie2.html
http://assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000121.html
http://www.snipersparadise.com/newproducts/UCDghillie.html
http://members.aol.com/DeBelser/tgs.html
http://www.comnet.ca/~leblanc/
http://www.wittynet.com/ghillie.htm
 

WARNING WARNING WARNING!!!!!!!

DO NOT SHRED BURLAP WITH YOUR DOG IN THE ROOM! IT WILL COST YOU AT LEAST $875.36 TO HAVE THE OPERATION TO REMOVE THE WAD FROM IT'S STOMACH.

Super burlap eating sniper tracker mutt is sitting here helping me type this. She agrees!

Long winded, Bolt out!
 
 
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 21:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.253)

I want to thank all of you guys for your kind Emails and prayers, as the Doc says things really went well. I hope to be back to work in 8 weeks and at the range in 4. Thanks again.

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 00:19:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

Great info on those two volumes. I'll probably order the Brit one on Sniping. Getting to have a fairly decent library on the subject.
If I ever get a BATF Firearms inspection (yes, I'm an FFL)they'll probably have a shit fit when they take a look at my book shelves.

Well, I don't have copies of the "Anarchist's Cookbook"...;-)

Am headed to the shop to remove some more english walnut chips on the Mex Mauser. Hmmm, wonder what a high grade "sniper" M70 would look like! Well, it's a moot point now as all my serious stuff wears fiberglass(McMillan) stocks.

Have loaded some 190 Berger's for testing on Thursday evening. That's become out weekly training outing. We ARE having some fun, for sure!

Great info on the ghillie stuff, Bolt! Although I thought you were supposed to have a dog smart enough not to eat burlap! Me, I've got a spoiled G. Shepherd that only likes her special stuff. Guess she's the doggie version of Morris, the cat.

All for now. Will report back on the 190 Berger/.308 performance on Friday.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 00:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.70)

About making the M3 into an M1 just by changing the knobs, unless the guys at Premier Reticles are wrong, and they aren't often, then it can't be done. Anyone else here have any info on this to maybe enlighten us both?

About moving the scope to compinsate, I've never heard of it so I wouldn't know if it would work. I would think that it would throw off your eye relief by sliding the scope either forward or backwards. Try it and let us know. It might be one of those things that's so easy no one ever thinks of it and when someone does everyone says why didn't I think of that!
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 00:59:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.22.213.212)

Matt <snipermattone@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 03:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.164)

The issue .308 cam with the 3.5x10 M3-LR "IS" for the 175 gr SMK... at 2685 fps.

It is range marked in METERS!, not yards... that's cuz the military has used meters for many years, and this is the military issue cam.

Many guys that buy this scope, whine like hell about "the totally bogus data that comes on the BDC cam", but the real problem is they don't know how to us it, and expect it to work with any stick they put it on.

The cam tracks bullets from the proper ammo, like they are on railroad tracks!!!

The bullet and velocity must be on, but with OTC riffles, the velocity can run from 2550, to 2730ish... so you need to do YOUR HOMEWORK, and have your 175's running at 2685... you can't just throw money at a scope dealer, and become an instant sharpshooter.

If the +/- 0.5" at 100 yds bothers you all that much... then put a thin coat of nail polish ("Flaming Pink" works well), on the bottom half of ONE of the rings... you just need to add 1/2 a thou, to get it on... but that is really of no consequence, in the scheme of the bigger picture.

When these scopes are properly set up, the are "dead bang" on steel to 1000, and there's a lotta guys on this site that will comfirm that.

I know there is no point in saying this... BUT... there are about 50 pages of real juju writen on this scope, what ammo matches what cams, and how to make it play, in the last two years of the Roster Archives... the data is SOooo good, that Leupold is re-thinking their stuff.

I will not suggest that you read the Duty Roster Archives... I mean why read, when we can re-invent the wheel each month? :((

Sorry for the rant... I just hate to see good equipment put down by guys that don't know how to use it...

I'm done!
 
 
 

Wore Out Old Dog <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 11:34:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.70)

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 12:06:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.163.11.208)

I have to agree with the Old Dog about the cams too. If you are right on with the speed the bullet will be right on. What I mean in my above post is what he more eliquently put about different velocities from different guns. That's why my 300WM isn't tracking 100% because I haven't gotten the load at that perfect speed yet but I will with my trusty chronograph. It's damn close but not 100% Sometimes I write quicker than I think. ;)

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 12:24:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.204)

You may be off 1/2" at 100, dead on at 300 and 3" low at 700 and 8" high at 900 but SO WHAT!!! You can't shoot that damn tight anyway or your gun won't if you can. If your gun would shoot consistant 1/2 MOA your still looking in excess of what your talking about for error on the scope. Like some of the guys said get off of the couch and go shoot it at 100 to 1000yds and then record it there are no free lunches. KEEP A GOOD LOG BOOK!!

Now to really screw you up in the head once you have spent the time doing that and getting all of your data down to the last MOA and you think your ready to start smacking steel at 1000yds pick a cloudy or a hot sunny day and do it all over again and guess what??? Damn if you ain't off on those dials AGAIN!!! KEEP A GOOD LOG BOOK!!

Welcome to the world of long range shooting!!! Oh and did I mention the wind??? That will take a few years and a couple of barrels to figure out also and you know what those damn dials will still be OFF and not exactly where they are suppose to be so KEEP A GOOD LOG BOOK.

I think you have figured out by now that you have to go out and shoot to be able to get the data to KEEP A GOOD LOG BOOK. Then one day you may be able to go out there on a cloudy, windy day or a hot humid day and "Actually" dial in your data and hit that steel at 1000yds. Not because your scope cam said so but because you looked up the data for that day and seen that you have to put in 33MOAs for a hot sunny day not the usual 31 or 32MOA you normally shoot with.

There are no free lunches in long range shooting you can have the best scopes and laser range finders but they are just tools and if you don't have the skill to use them it would be like me buying a scaple and a Drs. outfit and expecting to do brain surgery.

I am not trying to flame you but we get so many people coming on here expecting to become "Snipers" or expert long range shooters because they went to a week school or bought the latest gadgets. I am just trying to tell you to go shoot and LEARN from doing it. Schools give you the basic skills to START you off on your long range shooting carrier they don't make you and expert and neiter does the fancy equiptment you can buy.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 14:04:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Matt <snipermattone@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 14:39:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.164)

I will attempt an answer to your question of "If I move the optic in the rings,given that they are on a + 20 MOA base, will
the POI raise or lower. How much for how much?"; sure wish CDC was here.

First off I have no idea as to the exact value, you would have to do the math. Moving the scope forward on the base will lower the scope, back will raise it; this is in relationship to the center line of the bore. What you would need to do is find a ballistic program that will compute bullet drop and allow you to input the exact height of the scope, center of scope to center of bore. The problem is most programs I have seen what to round the numbers to 1 or 2 decimal places which will mess with the results. I have played with the one Federal gives away for free, and has all the ballistic data for their ammo, and I had to change the scope height .2" to see .1" inch difference in impact at 100 yd. with a 200 yd. zero.

I think what others have tried to tell you is if you have the equipment and capability and desire to have the POA match the POI you need to change optics for something with 1/4 MOA or less adjustments. Another option is change your ammo. Moving the scope forward or backward from the position where you have the right body position and site picture will probably affect your accuracy more than the 1/2" you are off now.

Also, where you feel others have not picked up on what you wanted to know when they read your question, I believe that you have read more into their responses then what they wrote!

Hope this helps...
 
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 15:25:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.43.52)

I was trying to tell you that you can be DEAD ON at 100yds and still be off at all or some of the other yardages both high or low, it just depends on the load and the day.

The thing is its never that much to worry about or that much that you can't adjust by favoring low or high. You will never be off enough to have to hold off of a target to hit it. I use the scope on a 308 with 168s doing 2800fps, a 260 with 140s doing 2700fps and my 6.5x284 with 140s doing 3000fps and it works great on all of them. I shoot at paper plates from 600 to 1000yds and I am never off enough not to hit it if I do my part.

If you need it finer than that go to the 1/4 minute scopes but they will be off from day to day also is what I am trying to say. I wish I could shoot the course once and know that when I went back out the next week or month I could use the exact same dial and hit exactly where I did the last time. All I am saying is tha no matter what scope you have it won't be that way. Not if your shooting past 500yds.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 16:36:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Just an uneducated guess.

Regards

Ray

Ray Smith <rayokyah@omantel.net.om>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 18:24:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.72.14.73)

Gerry

Gerry <gerryc@teleport.com>
Newberg, Oregon, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 20:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.34.56.12)

I'll get a full review out to Marius ASAP (gotta finish reading it first).
I gotta tell ya guys, it's great!
Some of the author's opinions will ruffle a few feathers I'm sure.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 20:39:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

I just want to publicly apologize to Matt about being able to change the LR M3 into an M1. I second checked with Premier Reticles and they said Leupold can do it but they don't stock the parts. When I spoke with them in the past I must have talked to someone that just said it couldn't be done and didn't specify that it just couldn't be done by them. So for the record you can change a LR M3 to an LR M1. I know when to admit I was wrong and say sorry.

Rob
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 20:46:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.52)

Mike T

Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 22:25:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Mike that's the way it sounded. I just sent another e-mail to get 100% confirmation so when I get an answer I'll post it. I didn't think it could be done either but who knows. Why you would want to is another question.
Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 23:17:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.62)

Semper Fi

Lt. Field
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 23:27:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.203)

"Thinking that someone has a right to be grumpy about answering a question that has already been answered(even 1000 times)is BULLSHIT"

Your position is BS.

Are you saying that you would proceed with any course of action without regard to the rules?

The expertise offered here is gained at the time and expense of those who have hard won it. What is amazing to me is that they are willing to spend more of that precious time hanging out here willing to share it.

You MUST recognize that this sharing happens in a structured format that is outlined in the !!Duty Roster Rules of Engagement!!. If you are unwilling to RESPECT the rules, then please leave.

It is a tragedy that some of those with the most to offer are driven off by lazy individuals unwilling or unable to respect someone else's time. This is not about Matt's post, but Lt. Field's position. The question HAS been answered 1000 times - check the archives.

Sir, understand and respect the rules or DO NOT ENGAGE.

Greg G

greg ghironzi <gregg@nbsgfg.com>
USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 01:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.18.57.77)

The focus adjustment at the eye piece is to adjust for your focus on the reticle itself not the target. Makes up for slight near or far sightedness. The distance from the scope to you eye is to establish by the manufacture for the proper sight picture, similar to metalic sights. If you are to close or to far away you don't get the proper sight picture and will affect accuracy. The AO or side focus is what sets the focus on the target just as with bino's or spotting scope. If any of these things are not adjusted or where they should be your accuracy will suffer.

As I said earlier moving the scope forward of backward will just put you in an improper body position and affect accuracy. It's fairly simple. Adjust the eyepiece for the best focus on the reticle, usuall done to a blue sky or white wall. Lay the scope in the lower ring halves and losely attach the top halves. Assume the desired shooting position, prone or bench depending on how you intend to shoot the most, and set the scope for the proper eye relief, making sure you have the proper sight picture. Keep the reticle aligned and snug things down.

Now I realize there are things you can do to help with this process but this is just the basics.
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 03:00:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.43.52)

It's Deja Vu all over again.

Just as things settle down from the last twits... damn, the crap never stops...

When are you little snots going to learn that this site is not a paid Q&A source for beginners, and as a newbee you are not entitled to ANYTHING. You little twits roll in and think the world owes you a personal education, and to trouble shoot your junk for you...

This is a site for experenced long range shooters to exchange information about techniques, equipment, and matches... newcomers are welcome, but as newcomers, keep in mind that you are not entitled to anything, and are visitors in someone elses home, so watch your mouth, or you can find the true meaning of "humility" real damn fast.

I would sugest you read both of these links...

http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/RulesEngagement.html

http://www.snipercountry.com/Intro/intro.htm

Then go find some manors.

Some of the people that you are gettin' badassed with, are the people that are designing, building, or researchin' the stuff you are throwing your allowance on.
 

Wore out Badd "Grumpy" Ol' Dog <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 03:14:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.61)

Experts have no right to flame.

The sad thing is that these sort of urination at a distance contests actually damage us all because some very good people DO get put off by it.

Before I continue, since we have already heard from the plantif about the newbies, I'd like to gently chide with a quote from those same rules:

4 - You may disagree with others... post those disagreements with facts in a debate format, but
don't get ugly, or personal, and resort to name calling... there may be only 20 or 30 regular
posters at any given time, but REMEMBER that there are some 2000 people that check into this
site every day, and just read. Many of these folks are just shooters, but there are many that
work for manufactures (including Leupold, Winchester, and Remington)... and also remember
that there are readers from the anti-gun side, so keep your language clean... 
 

Now let me say, I am so far from an expert it isn't funny, I have lurked and posted once in a great while for 3 years or so now and always react with dissapointment when this sort of bickering happens here. Why? Because not only do we lose newbies, but we also lose the interest of some good people.

Without dropping names here, I have had the honor of speaking with and spending a few days with some folks that really could be important parts of this community. (not becauase I am anything special I was just invited to be at the right place at the right time to meet them.) A couple of these individuals would be VERY good for the exchange on this site, people who know their stuff but who are really put off by this sort of 'sorority mentality'. This is what they said when asked if they had heard of SC. :-( That is a loss to everyone here.

Be careful, in your zeal to drive the newbies back to the gunandknife type boards for you have also driven off those who could truly add somehting simply because they dont want to deal with the snippyness and depracating tone that is found here.

That is a loss to us all. Old timers and newbies alike.
Charles <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 03:35:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.102.84.98)

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 03:55:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.187)

You know, I have not seen a article on the site on "How to properly adjust your scope". If it's there maybe it needs to be brought out a bit clearer.
Pete or Marius- is there a section on that? If not I nominate Byron to write it up (he kind of did already).
 

Later dudes
PS- anyone heard from Stan?
Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 04:06:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

I have probably read the Duty Roster every day for the past two and a half years( some exceptions ). I can say that I have read through the archives probably five times from beginning to end. I have gained a great wealth of knowledge from the regular and not so regular posters on this site. I have supported the site with raffle monies,word of mouth,and e-mails, and will continue to support this site. This is the Upside!!

On the Downside!!
It can take several days to read the archives! The archives do not support a good search engine! After reading the archives several times, I have not memorized everything that I read, nor can I sometimes remember which month or year that I read it. When I have a question I will try to get the answer from someone directly. I do not like getting kicked in the teeth by a chosen few because they feel the question was below their standards. I was always taught, "If you do not have anything good to say, do not say it". I understand some of the questions are repetitive, but that is where the charter members of the site could guide the individual to the correct answer. I would not expect someone to answer a BDC cam question a hundred times, but I would expect someone to point them to the answer. I also understand that some people like to be spoon feed. These folks just need to be ignored.
Lastly, sometimes a question may need to be answered in a hurry. For example, Matt had a valid question about changing his point of impact by moving his scope. The answere was very simple. YES!! Now the hard part. How much? No one will know until you do the math! But the question turned into a very personal name calling rant. Matt may be going to the range again tomorrow and did not have time to reread several years of Duty Roster archives!! Who is to know? Help or do not help! Be part of the solution, not the problem.
Just my thoughts,obversations,and ideas.
Thanks for all of the knowledge I have gained!!
Back to my hide for another 2 1/2years.
Jim Abbott
Jim <jaa.jr@verizon.net>
Flower Mound, Texas, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 05:10:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.42.125.15)

I have to support you there, and others.

I cannot remember every detail of every post, but the questions ANSWERED and COMMENTED (mud-slung?) UPON were not really the questions ASKED by Matt in the first place.

He asked "will it have an effect if I move my scope, and can anybody tell me by how much?" He also commented (later?) that he was using a BLANK bdc because the original didn't match his ammo.

I cannot remember that he swore at the scope for not tracking his ammo, or was calling it a POS because of it. He merely stated.

People didn't answer HIS question, but the USUALLY asked one, and then some got all upset about this USUAL thread about it coming up again.

As you say, somebody may not have the time to read the archives (and yes, they are unfriendly - more about that in a later post), but before coming down from a dizzy height on somebody we should take a close look at what was asked, and answer the ACTUAL question, not what we read at first glance.

Also, even if we disagree with what a person is trying to do, it is not necessary to come down upon him from a "I am superior" attitude.

Take Matt's question now. He's off 1/2" at 100 yards. So, taking usual/calculated come-ups for that ammo/velocity/distance, he should be off at 1000 yards. Should he work like that? No. He should go out and shoot and get his own come-ups for his own rifle and his own ammo. And then use that, and he should NOT be out. Unless of course any single adjustment takes him from 5" low to 5" high. Then he should just learn to slightly adjust his aim.

Did somebody really tell him that? No, not really. He was told (if I remember correctly) that he can't shoot that good anyway, that he will be out by as much in any case, thus shouldn't worry about it. HOW THE BLOODY HELL DOES THE POSTER KNOW THAT!!!

Was he answered about how to adjust? Yes, a single line in about two screens full of other post about the cams, use and abuse thereof and such. FIRST answer the question asked, and then add other comments that you feel necessary. Don't hide the answer in all your comments somewhere - he might not read the comments, eithe rbecause he knows the answer, or because he's not interested in that right now.

Good, you think what he is trying to do is just wasting his time. Tell him so, AND WHY YOU THINK SO. But address the issue. Don't tell him he can't shoot. And don't tell him if he could use the equipment he would be able to track his ammo with the cam. HE'S NOT USING THE BLOODY CAM!

You just want to attack him? Don't. Keep out of the discussion. You've got nothing to offer about the subject, other than "sh!t, you can't shoot good enough for that to matter" (5" at 1000 yards?)? Then don't offer it. Keep out of the discussion.

As far as this site being just for experienced shooters? Not for newbies? Think again. If the newbies are not pulled in and taught the correct way from the start, how the hell are they going to become experienced?

Agreed, they should not come here and act as if they know everything. They should read and shut up first. But, if one is searching the web for an answer you need NOW, and you come upon Sniper Country, ask to register and is registered a couple of minutes later (if you're lucky enough to catch me online that is, or Ken is helping out agian), you don't want to hear that you need to take a rainy Sunday in front of the computer to read the archives. You want the answer now. That's why you came here for!

How many times have any of us not went to "the experts" when we have a problem? How many times did that gunsmith have to answer that same question? The scope manufacturer? The car salesman? The ... you pick your choice. Does that mean the next one to ask the question does not deserve an answer? NO!! You don't want to answer? Good, then don't. But don't sh!t on him either.

Getting back to "no newbies need enter". Then I'll have to say goodbye to you all RIGHT NOW!! I am the biggest newbie here - even after a number of years. I've got a hunting rifle, and have never shot at 1000 yards. I don't have a super-duper custom and never will - they're too expensive and our money is worth too little. A Loopy MK4 in proper $250 bases and rings? Highly unlikely. Multiply that by more than 8 and you get more than I bring home in a month.

Yes, we want, no, we NEED the experienced shooters. They are what makes this Duty Roster the fountain of information that it is. For other experienced and inexperienced shooters alike. A newbie asks a question that doesn't deserve to be answered on the Roster? Then don't. If you think he needs an answer though, mail him, pointing his to the place in the archives if need be, or give him the answer personally. Don't chase him away - you might just be chasing him away from (tactical) shooting.

And where will tactical shooting then be in twenty/thirty/forty years? Or don't you care, since you'll be too old/dead by then?

And remember that this is not aimed at anybody specifically, but everybody in general.

Think I've written enough for now - time to get to work. Not even going to read it all again, neither for proofreading nor for decent thought thread. I wrote as I thought, and hope I wrote down all I thought about, as I think a lot faster than I can type.

Marius
Jim <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 06:30:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

FIRE AWAY - I'm in the open

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 06:35:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Just out of curiousity, regarding comeups - Did you adjust for elevation changes and temp changes from "text SAC"? What is the Whittington Center elevation, BP, Temp, yaadaah-yaaadah?
Chronographed velocity/ decay at 100?

Lotsa variables to consider before you begin flaming GUYS.......
 

Did I ever tell you about the one when I asked "a purported EXPERT" for some .308 175 gr M-118LR load data, and then NEVER received a reply??

At the EXACT same time, Pat Murphy and a buncha other Patrons and Masters privately e-mailed data and contacts which helped me out greatly.

Oh but then, I was "Newbie" here too.............
 
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 10:34:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.37)

Novell concept.

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
Albemarle, NC, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 12:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53)

Moving your scope fore or aft would change the point of impact by some degree. However, in doing so, you are still stuck with a scope that has half MOA elevation adjustments. Also, you would be changing your eye relief from what should be optimum to something less so. If you really want the ability to shoot POA/POI bullseye, you need finer adjustments. Leupold will change your M3 into an M1 (quarter minute adjustments) for $122 door to door. My M3 just had a sex change a few months ago.

My recommendation: Don't mess with the eye relief. Get the scope setup the way you are comfortable with it and shoot your weapon at varying yardage to obtain the data for your rifle. You may grow to like the M3. As you know from reading, lots of guys here love them for quick dial up and shoot. A few generations of USA shooters have survived shooting M3 scopes. BDC equipped USMC scout snipers are probably the world's best (personal opinion). BDCs can't be beaten in competition where speed is an issue. However, from my long and expensive experience, if you are not satisfied with the coarse adjustments of your M3 to the point you are asking for lots of help and opinions, you are not ever going to be happy with your rig until you change over to something that better fits YOUR (versus mine or anyone else's) requirements. Again, if you are not comfortable with your rig, keep working on it. You need to be to the point that when you lock up a target and make the decision to pull, you need to be 100% confident that the rifle-scope system, coupled with your experience and talent and knowledge, is going to put the bullet right where you want it. Stay with us, grow a thick skin and enjoy the antics. My 2 cents.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater , FL, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 13:13:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.26.79.34)

Rob,

Thanks for passing the word on, however, just one correction with your post. You are right we do not do the M3 to M1 conversion on the 3.5X10. It is because we don't stock the parts. Leupold does stock these parts that's why we suggest contacting them. You made it sound like Leupold does not have the necessary parts on hand either.

M1 adjustments retro fitted to the other LR 30mm tubes are different but the knobs are the same M1 knobs and reference skirt.

Dick Thomas

Premier Reticles, Ltd.
175 Commonwealth Court
Winchester, VA 22602
Tel (540) 868-2044
Fax (540) 868-2046
www.premierreticles.com

So as Dick said in this letter and another one he sent me prior to this, the LRM3 can be turned into the M1 at Leupold. They change all the internals to make it 1/4 MOA. Hopefully this clears things up for some and my apology to Matt still stands.
 

Rob01 <customrem700@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 13:42:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.58)

The first thing is determine how the rifle/scope is to be used. Hunting, tactical, target, long range, medium, short, etc. and how much you are willing to put in to it. Build it for a specific purpose not an all around everything rifle.

Set the stock so that it fits you properly and comfortably. Every time you shoulder the rifle it returns to the same place, cheek is properly positioned, LOP allows proper placement of trigger finger, etc. Make adjustments as necessary until it feels good and repeats.

Next using the best base, rings and optics available for intended purpose, position the scope so that proper eye relief is obtained, proper focus, reticle alignment, ring alignment with the tube, proper mounting tension is acomplished, etc. Install the scope properly and leave it.

Bore sight either with an alignment device or good old eyeball focus. Purpose is just to get you on paper in least amount of shots. If you use a bore sighter with a colminator you can get a feel for the scope adjustment range of elevation and windage by playing with the turrets. Remember that some grids in the colminator are 4 MOA per grid line, not 4 clicks per MOA. If you have a variable scope you can crank up the power to determine how the reticle adjusts. Return the scope to zero then go to the range and shoot the rifle.

At the range it will save a lot of frustration and guess work if someone spots for you. Once zeroed, determine whether the performance of the load/round and rifle are exceptable. If not try other loads until desired results are obtained. Some get better, some get worse. If your on paper don't set your turrets until you get the desired group, then zero for that ammo and reset the turrets. You might want to come back another day to verify zero and previous results. You make the call and record everything it will save you from repeating your mistakes.

Once your rifle is setup and zeroed, practice, log, practice, log but DON'T change a thing. Experience the rifle at different ranges and winds and good record keeping over these variety of conditions will make the rifle shoot where you want it to the first time and under all the different curcumstances you have shot in. Your reference to your log book will verify this.

If your scope has cams then the data collected in your log book will reflect the differences for these various conditions. Even if you make your own cam it will be different under different conditions ( temp, altitude, etc). The purpose of the cam is to give you a quick, easy, first round hit on the target in most conditions, not 1/4 MOA at 1000 yds. For military sniping this in most cases is sufficient. If you are LE and require that 1/4 MOA accuracy at shorter ranges then you shouldn't be using cams, use 1/4 MOA target knobs and get to know them. If you are a bench shooter and need to get the best group at 1000 yds then get a 1/16 MOA target scope, a 5 foot mirage tube and 50lb bench rifle.

If for some reason you have to change things then rezero and start logging again. If possible don't change a thing.

Just my 2 cents...
 

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 13:57:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

What I said was "You can't shoot that tight anyway your gun won't if you can". Meaning that he would have to be shooting consistant 5" groups at 1000yds for it to make squat.(Thats near world record shooting by the way)

I may be wrong and if so I appolgize to Matt if he can shoot consistant 5" groups at 1000yds but that is NOT what I was saying. I said his gun probably wouldn't even if "HE" could.

Matts theory on the "MOA SCOPES" are flawed and thats what I was trying to correct with my answer. People buy these scopes thinking they are magic and will put them right on at a given range because the dial says so. Well we beat that horse to death but then you said that Matt was not using the bloody cam but using the blank dial and using the MOA so he wasn't talking about the samething but he is!!

Your still dealing with a 1" dial and if your data comes out to be 16.5 MOA at 600yds you may be 3" off on a given day. SO WHAT!!! The next day you maybe dead on!!! Were talking 3" at 600yds!!!What I am tring to tell Matt and the rest of these guys who are tring to make these scopes fit there loads is to go out and shoot and get the "BASE" line data and then keep a good log book because NOTHING STAYS THE SAME!!!

Being a 1/2" off at 100yds with this scope makes no diffence, you will be on and off a little all the way out, then the next time you shoot it will be a little differnt. Hell last week I was a full MOA off from 600yds to 850yds thats 8" and the next day it was back on again and I don't have a clue why but think its because of the conditions that day. Thats what I was trying to tell him. He needs to get out and shoot it a lot and keep good records.

I was addressing his statement about the 1/2" off at 100yds relating to 5" at 1000yds and telling him it doesn't necessarly work that way with these scopes and won't mean squat in the real world. If it does to him then he needs a 1/4 minute scope.

If my telling him to go shoot it and recorded it and keep good records offended him or anyone else on this sight then they can take it for what its worth. I put 4000 to 5000 rounds a year down range with several different long range calibers and maybe all the things I have found shooting my guns and scopes aren't the same for the rest of you so I may not know what I am talking about and in that case my info is worth just what it cost you to get it.

I was upset when a lot of the regulars quit posting on here because I leaned a lot from them and miss the knowledge, wit and banter they brought to the sight. I thought about going the way they did but you know what, I ain't leaving, and if my post offended anyone I appoligize for that but I damn well stand by what I said!!!

Sorry for the long post you can wipe it out if you want.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 13:57:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

1. Moving the scope forward or backward in the rings should have little effect on your POI / POA aspect. Since the scope rings share the same "line of sight" axis as the scope/reticle, you could theoretically slide your scope back 3 feet and see very little gain or loss in available clicks. You may have to re-zero your turret drum , but any change would probably be less than one M.O.A. Only exception to this would be if your rifle/mount configuration is so off axis that you have to use a ton of elevation or windage just to zero at 100 yds. This would bring your corrected line of sight further out of alignment with the axis of the scope tube (by design, the tube will always remain aligned with the rings except for 'lito's excellent nail polish trick) and would build in more zero shift to your backward & forward scope question.

2. M.O.A. click values on Leupolds are determined by the thread pitch of the turret post and the detent spacing. Leupold can change this on some models but says it is costly and they don't like doing it as some of these things are built into the scope body during manufacture. Anyone considering such a change should check out the pricing and feasibility of such a conversion and then weigh the cost of the job versus selling the original scope and buying a new model configured to your taste.

3. The guys are right on about the cams. The BDC turret drums have values for a ballistic model with very specific range and drop information. Some are in yards and some are in meters. You have to know what you are putting on your rifle and also realize that environmental errors will be built in to your ammo performance from day to day while the BDC never changes. The BDC was made to get a quick hit on meat in a military environment. It does this extremely well, but possibly at the cost of some precision L.E. and competition types prefer. Do your research and be very familiar with your equipment. Don't stomping around the floorboard for a clutch if you are driving an automatic transmission.

3a. It ain't a BDC "CAM" anyway. It's just a premarked turret drum. The freakin ART series of mounts was the only trajectory compensating hardware that incorporated different "cams" specific to different ammo that I know of.

4. Real men don't read instructions. . . . Leupold has very good (and never read) instructions on how to "focus" the rear eyepiece to YOUR eye. They are with every new scope. Some people could look through my scope and think the image quality sucks compared to their scope. Duh! They aren't comparing apples to apples because my eyepiece is screwed all the way in to adjust for my crappy eyesight. Individual focus is VERY important. Long times over the gun with your eye trying to compensate will result in headaches and mucho eyestrain. I have even copied the Leupold instructions into part of my lesson plan and make sure everybody reads it and knows how to do it.

5. Like the guys say. . . log everything . . . every shot. Never, ever underestimate what humidity, mirage, temp and elevation can do to your dope! I think a proper 100 yard zero is not obtained with one trip to the range. It takes several trips to the range to really confirm my zero before I will re-set my turret. Guys that throw things out, shoot a group at 100yds, zero their turret and pack it in have done nothing more than trust that every day will mirror those conditions and that position. Who said they even got down behind the gun right for that group. On the rare occaisions that I get to shoot my own rifle, I can quickly get a nice group two clicks off because I dicked up my position behind the gun. Get up, get back down right and the group is where I called it.

So remember that these days we have very, very good equipment available to us. I would say that 99% of our errors are because we screw up our technique behind the rifle, can't dope the conditions properly or didn't configure our equipment for the job we are demanding it to do. I decided a while back that the weakest link in my SWS is ME. So that is what I will continue to work on the next 40 years or so.

Whew! My southern dark roast coffee if finally wearing off. Thanks for the space to spew.

Everybody stay safe,
TC
Terry Cross <kmw308@aol.com>
Forest Hill, LA, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 15:08:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.53)

September 14, 2001

Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, San Diego, CA

Join the Scout/Sniper Association members for an afternoon of educational and motivational talks and stories. Some of the most storied and well known snipers in the world will be here. Once the talks secure, all the speakers as well as many experienced Snipers will be available to meet in person to chat with and ask questions. Some of our tentative speakers include:

This event is $5 and is open to the public.
Gary <lakis@marinescoutsniper.com>
Ramona, CA, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 16:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.238.34)

No offense taken, or meant. I was deliberate in not mentioning names, and in mentioning that I am typing from memory. And I was not trying to think who posted what, nor trying to nail anything on anybody.

I was basically saying "First answer a person's question, then comment" In general. And from my everyday way of living as well.

Scenario.
I walk into a shop, and asks "Have you got xxx, I want to do yyy."
Attendant: "xxx/yyy? Why do you want that/want to do that? Here, let me show you what you REALLY need."
I: "Thanks, but no thanks. I asked for xxx. First answer my question, then tell me your other story. Won't bother you again" Turn around and walk out - not to return.

BTDT - many times!

Now if the attendant had done it differently: "No sir, unfortunately we don't have that, what is it exactly you want to do, maybe I've got something else to help you? Or if that is absolutely what you want, I think 'competition name' might have it"
Or: "Yes, we have that... here it is. But let me understand, you want to do yyy? I don't think that will work (the best), AND HERE'S WHY ... qqq"

I might take his advice, might not. But he gave ME the choice, AS WELL AS the info to make the decision. I'll return to that shop MANY times, even if they might be a bit more expensive.

BTDT TOO - even more times.

Glad you're staying on. I don't want ANYBODY to leave. Not newbies, not oldies. I want people to maybe think a bit more sometimes (AGAIN, NOT AIMED AT YOU!)

Take care

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 19:56:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.52)

September 14, 2001
Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, San Diego, CA

Ok people, who's goin'?

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 19:59:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Because in the big picture it wouldn't matter because the next time he shot it it would probably be different. So he would need to keep a good log book. If he had to be that exact where a half MOA counted at 1000yds he would need to go to a differnt scope and I still say that "MOST" all of us shooting at 1000yds with tactical rifles aren't shooting so tight that .5 MOA will make a difference.

I don't know how to better answer his question other than saying "Don't move the scope it won't help, 1/2" off at 100 doesn't make a difference with this scope".... Then he will ask, WHY NOT!! So you see my point??
 
 
 
 
 
 

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 19, 2001 at 20:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

I haven't noticed anything similar on this board, but I thought I'd ask anyway... If there was any forum appropriate for a tactical barrel question, this would be it, eh?

I think I either have a bum barrel or somehow managed to damage it with a coated dewey rod & brass jag. :-(

Rifle: Rem 700p
Observations: after first firing and cleaning (having aquired said rifle from a friend "lightly used", I noticed a nick or chip in the rifling about 3/4 of an inch from the muzzle. It is widest on the edge of the land and gets narrower until it stops about halfway throught the land. After another range trip or two and cleaning, I found another chip about a 1/4 inch from the first on the same land.

Have any of you run into this type of problem before? Do you know what might be happening to my barrel? I'm fairly certain that nothing I did with factory ammo, a coated brass rod & jag or normal cleaning chemicals could have caused this.

Your thoughts and ideas are appreciated.

ps... I got an email from another gentlman with a similar problem from my original posting on AssaultWeb ( http://assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000256.html ) and think another poster there had the same problem too.

Thanks!
AB
Amish_Bill <amishbill@therange.com>
ga, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 01:00:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.56.72.210)

Matt <snipermattone@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 02:25:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.151)

;-)
 

Got really busy around home and at work, ended up not lurking for the past month... finally snitched a bit of time to get back here... see the same ol' issues getting hit. Hey, I'm not going to complain one iota... repetition is good, helps you learn it, get it down pat. It's just practice, practice.... and answering questions is a form of teaching... for those of you who haven't, teaching something is the best way to learn it....

Gonna run again... if ya'll need me, you know where to find me.

Oh, BTW.... Mr. "Coyote" Rogers... if you're out there, I'd appreciate it if you'd get up with me, I'd like to pick your brain for a bit... these critters here are starting to get a bit pesky, and I'd like a LOT of pointers on how to put a dent in their population.

L8R,

-L
 
 

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 03:24:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.84.87)

Gee, I hate to correct you after all you've been through recently, but that should read:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s sheep.

Getting your neighbor(s) to covet your rifle(s) is part of the fun.

And of course, you missed this one:

Thou shalt have no other powders before Varget.
MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 03:27:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Lest we forget the teachings of Molly Bendium. But that might be in the revised "new testament".

Chris
"FatBoy"

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
For those that know, 43 pages of relevent info since Sep 98', Eyes burned from archive readin', Mid-Tenn, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 03:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.196)

Just back from the range and shop. Tried the 190 grain .308 load and believe we have a winner.

Load consisted of:

Caliber: .308 Winchester
190 grain Berger Match Bullet seated to 2.800" OAL.
Lapua case: Once fired, neck sized, trimmed to min., and primer pocket uniformed.
41.5 Grains of IMR-4064
Federal 210 Match Primer.

Chronographed at 2,622 from my 26" Obermeyer barreled M40A1 clone.

600 yard group in variable wind was: 1" high by 3" wide for five rounds. Four of the rounds went into 1" X 1 1/4"! Shooting was from the prone over my pack.

All for now, 'tis late.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 05:39:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.243)

Heya Folks,

While Mike is crawling around on his belly with the scorpions and Hogs in New mexico teaching, I am going to add something to his website. I'd like to ready a testimonials page for it before he returns. (Similar to what I am trying to get accomplished over at Nor-Cal Precision's site).

In any case, if you have tried one of Mike's Slings I would very much appreciate an e-mail. I'll post a number of the complimentary notes I receive on his website.

Feel free to include photographs if you would like your picture up there as well, or a picture of your rifle. Of course this is NOT a prerequisite. A note alone is just fine.

Thanks!
Charles

PS: Same applies to anyone who has used a Nor-Cal Precision rifle. I need a 3 more testimonials for Jerry before I open that part of his site.

http://www.tacticalintervention.com
http://www.norcalprecision.com

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 05:52:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.102.84.98)

I know that the wife, daughter, and myself will roll in Saturday the 28th. I'll be there until Sunday the 5th.... in the huts, not sure what number yet. I figure that the PA flag will be flying nearby. Planning on shooting the Presidents 100 (known as the draft dodger 100 for the past 8 years), and the LEG. I will also be involved in the Whistler Boy match with the PA junior team. Hope to see you guys there.

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, PA, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 13:50:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

Gary Kaney
Gary Kaney <yenak45@mwci.net>
Ill, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 14:01:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.47.181)

Rob had asked what the twist is on my M40A1 clone/Obermeyer barrel. It's 1:10" twist.

As to asbestos underwear...I find they're more comfortable if you wear Pampers underneath. It just give you that "extra" secure feeling!

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 14:20:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.54)

11th commandment: "Chile" shalt be spelled with but one "i" and an "e" on the end.

Pablito shall not dispute this, lest he receiveth not the brass which is boxed and awaiteth shipment. Bravo, the prodigal son, should contact me and advise as to how to deliver more Dixon Red.

Been a great month. Visits to Badlands (Bobby Whittington and Steve Suttles are super folks, many thanks for the hospitality), Raton for the FCSA World Championships (congrats to Dan Williams, who won production class and Rookie of the Year), and James Jarret's place, where I linked up with Undude and Michael, and got to meet Geo. Gardner and Marty Bordson (Badger Ordnance), and a lot of other great folks.

Add to that the dispatching of a dozen prairie dogs in my longhorn's pasture, and it don't get no damn better.

We should all count our blessings that we are part of this community. We come here to learn, and learn we do. Maintain a thick skin, don't take differences of opinion personally, and enjoy the exchanges. Who knows, ya might learn sump'n.

Pat, first round's on me. Should arrive sometime on the 22nd.

Best Regards,
 
 
 

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 19:51:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.10)

I am looking for the old style all leather military boots. These have all eyelets, the "chevron" type sole, and the "relief" cut midway up the eyelets that kinda flares out when you have them bent forward.

I see them now and then but usually in odd sizes.

I am looking for 11.5R(no thats not some new weird rifle barrel!)

Absolutely the best military issued boot I have ever owned and I need a new pair.

Thanks
 

TR <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 20:26:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.81.16.49)

Click on my name to go to the Sportsmans Guide website. type in "combat boots in the keyword search and they are there. $14.97, I got a pair. They are OK. Best footwear going for $15.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 21:20:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

When I sent the rifle to the factory it had a 2.5 lb. pull and minimal (but some) overtravel. When I got it back the trigger was at 4.25 lbs. To get the trigger back to 2.5, I backed out the 2 nuts above the trigger 1/2 turn, and then the problems started--the tigger pull weight was reduced, but it would only intermittently trip the sear.

Since the trigger seemed "wobbly" (and hence the likely reason it wasn't engaging the sear), I tightened the overtravel screw a half turn (which reduced the "wobble"), and backed up the other 2 nuts a half turn away from the trigger (where they were before). With the action out of the stock, my trigger pull gauge showed 3 lbs.; overtravel was middle of the road. Good enough, so I put the action back into the stock, cycled the bolt, and the trigger broke but at a much heavier weight and with almost no overtravel. I checked it with the gauge, and it was off the scale (my gauge registers 8lbs max).

OK, I take the action back out of the stock, cycle the bolt, pull the trigger, and I'm back to 3 lbs. with normal overtravel. I layed the action back in the stock (didn't even put the screws in this time), pulled the trigger, and I was back to a heavy pull with virtually no overtravel. Does anyone have any idea what is causing this (I can't see where the stock is binding the trigger group, so I don't believe that's it). If it is the stock fit, why didn't the trigger act up when I got the rifle back from the factory (remember, it broke at 4 lbs. with normal overtravel)? I find it difficult to believe I screwed something up just by turning the spring tension nuts a half turn. Anyone have any ideas?

Rob

Rob <rkinz@ipa.net>
MO, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 22:50:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.142.2.17)

Camouflaging boots worn in the stalk, what works?

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, July 20, 2001 at 23:19:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.153)

I bought an old used pair of desert boots off EBAY. Took some spray paint and painted the soles. Then, took scraps of burlap from building my infamous ghillie suit and glued the scraps to the boots. Works good and you don't mess up a good quality boot.

Penny pinching Bolt, Out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, q - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 00:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.235)

Spent some time checking out range/training sites earlier this week and have a quick field craft question. Have any off you found something that will ward off Chiggers? Anyone who's been on a stalk, spent some field time or hell, even walked in the woods in the south (Ft Campbell Area) knows what I'm talking about. What do you guys do when your on a stalk or in a firing position waiting and you're covered up with chiggers? Better question is, how do you keep them off?

I've used Chigg away, chig arid, off, deep wood off, off skintastic(don't rocommend that one in a field enviroment - you'll smell like a french.....ya know) the stuff that has Surviver w/ deet and some kinda paste with citronella in it. All the above have done ok for ticks and sand fleas, but I have found nothing that will repel chiggers. Seems like gold bond extra strength poweder works a bit, but ya smell like a york peppermint patty from 30 yards!! Not too stealthy.

Do you guys just suck it up and deal with the critters or is there some secret to moving through the bush and keeping a good overwatch/firing position and staying free from infestation?

Hope this isn't too basic, but posioning from nail polish over 40% of my torso drove me to post.

Chris
 
 
 

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Itchin' and scratchin' from other than low crawlin", Mid-Tenn, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 02:05:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.101.179)

One of the loonie birdies on SC (hepkat), has decided to go back to the archives and see how much this M3 stuff HAS been talked about...

Whew, I had no idea why I'm so tired of it, and now I know... anyone can just pick a month, and get it all...

Not counting the crap with Nato-Stevie...

Since Sept, '98 (my first technical post on the M3's), there have been 1,178 serious question/answers, and my technical posts on them are 48 full pages in MS Word (10 point type)... that's a goddamn book!!!

Thanks Hepkat!!

No more on it.... I give up :((
If youz guys can't get M3's to work... SELL 'em, and get a Tabasco!
Ol' Dog <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 02:15:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.116)

Two Shoes
Dos Zap
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 03:01:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.181)

I finally got a chance to meet a few of the regulars here on the roster and have a great time as well. I got back from New Mexico a couple of days ago, where I hung out and shot with Undude Miller. Mike S., Danny Mull, Ding, James Jarret and more. Bruce Robinson stopped in as well. I cant say that I have ever met a bunch of better guys. Mike and James knoledge is vast and the class and facilities perfect. Hope to meet more of you guys in the future.

George
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO , USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 10:50:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.199)

I finally got a chance to meet a few of the regulars here on the roster and have a great time as well. I got back from New Mexico a couple of days ago, where I hung out and shot with Undude Miller. Mike S., Danny Mull, Ding, James Jarret and more. Bruce Robinson stopped in as well. I cant say that I have ever met a bunch of better guys. Mike and James knoledge is vast and the class and facilities perfect. Hope to meet more of you guys in the future.

George
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO , USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 10:50:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.199)

Go to an outdoor store and get some Permanone spray for your clothing.

Soak the clothing in it and set it outside for at least 48 hours.
It's odorless, repels damn near anything with at least one brain cell
(that means it won't keep this crowd away) but if you don't let the clothing dry thoroughly you'll be in the ER with severe chemical burns.

Once it dries it's safe for contact, and lasts up to two months before retreatment is required.
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
TEXAS, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 15:23:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

Mike Duncan <Duncanmm@aol.com>
Walters, ok, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 17:49:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.167)

What happens when get this stuff wet again by sweating or rain? Does it revert back to it's liquid state with the same nasty attitude?

Don't need a raw arse but hates them chigger bugs, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 17:52:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.223)

Amish Bill, you asked:

>I think I either have a bum barrel or somehow managed to damage it >with a coated dewey rod & brass jag. :-(

>Rifle: Rem 700p
>Observations: after first firing and cleaning (having aquired said >rifle from a friend "lightly used", I noticed a nick or chip in the >rifling about 3/4 of an inch from the muzzle. It is widest on the >edge of the land and gets narrower until it stops about halfway >throught the land. After another range trip or two and cleaning, I >found another chip about a 1/4 inch from the first on the same land.

Are you pushin a patch from muzzle to chamber?? If so, that's a no-no.. Yer not stuffin' branches in your muzzle as x-tra camo-flage on your weekend snipey training session, are ya? Clean it, have someone with a borescope take a look-see, then e-mail me what they tell ya. You can't fix it if the land was bunged, you'll have to cut the barrel behind the ding, then recrown. One question, does it shoot??

later hawgs

JR
 
 
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
hot n' sweaty, sd, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 18:38:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.113.85.62)

Negative, not water soluable. You treat the clothes in question, let dry completely, 48 hours recommended....a clothes drier IS NOT recommended, then wear the stuff. Works wonderfully, ants, ticks, chiggers, scorpions hate it. Snakes will come near but appearently the smell to them is horrendous, and they leave.( or maybe it was that lumpy fart when I stared at the copperhead. dunno)
Mike in Texas <appspec1@aol.com>
TEXAS by Gawd! - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 20:51:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

Gentlemen:

The Sniper Country Charter states that the sites purpose is to foster a better understanding of the military and LEA sniper in order to dispel the public misconception of the sniper as a crazed animal on a rooftop.

It further states that it the forum is aimed at Military and LEA snipers; although marksmen etc. are welcome.

So this stuff about it being a forum for experienced marksmen (I say again marksmen) with no room for interested civilians with little to no experience is not correct.

No insult intended towards anyone. Just a comment that this site was intended to be primarily for military and LEA snipers, but extended a welcome to others. On the contrary, the marksmen on this site know more about shooting than I ever will. On the other hand, they know zero about tactics and the other 85% of being a sniper.

Arrogance, elitism etc., is not what this site was intended to be about. In fact, it is counter productive to professinalism.

And before hopping on a pedestal of "professionalism" ask this of yourself;

"How many times have I been in combat as a sniper?"

I bet there are less than 6 people on the site who can say that they have been and they dont berate newcomers, nor do they try to place themselves above others.

Lets not forget what DAVE REED intended this site to be about and make people feel welcome here. According to the charter, the sites mission was to provide an exchange for military and LEA snipers while making others welcome to dispel the media image of the "sniper."

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 21:19:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.68.137.207)

Folks, Jefe's on the money. Just because you're not Carlos Hathcock or Chuck Mawhinney doesn't mean you can't contribute knowledge that others will be happy to get, and that will benefit us all.

Much of the info that the Armed Forces now benefits from concerning .50 caliber long-range shooting was generated and gladly shared by civilian shooters in the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association.

Anyone who sets himself up as a self-appointed expert is doing others a disservice, and himself as well, as it discourages others to share their info. We are all newbees. Think otherwise, and you're fooling yourself.

Daisy air rifles to Barretts (45+ years later), I learn something damn near every time I pull a trigger. If I can help somebody by passing along what I've learned (often through mistakes), I'm happy. I hope others will extend the same courtesy to me.

Hell, it may be as simple as how to deal with chiggers, but it's still part of the game, and as such, fun.

Thanks to all of you (even pablito) who help.

Best Regards,

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 23:07:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.253.232.31)

We have been around this bend more than once. I for one, have to say that there has never been a better group of people to sit around, and shoot the sh** with. I have been reading these pages for a few years now, and I do submit very little. When I read the archives, I have noticed that there are a lot of people "missing". Why is that? Are "we" doing something wrong? I can da** well assure you, that it is not for lack of knowledge. Maybe, just maybe, it is for conduct. I could be wrong, but I do know that when I email specific people with my questions, they respond exactly alike. AND I DO MEEN IN A CLEAR, CONSICE,(sp) INTELLIGENT, FRIENDLY, AND EXTREMELY HELPFULL MANNER. Then, there are usually added comments or questions about their family, or mine. I ask you, where else do you get this conduct? at your local gunshop?, supermarket? used car lot?... Exactly, no-where but here. (barring the odd exception, no offense intended) To make a short story long, the submission numbers are down, which is unfortunate, because then the input is down. We owe it to our kids, and our friends, to keep this site going, and progressing, because i personally want my daughters, (and my incoming), Andy, Scooter, and all the rest of "the next generation", to have the same banter, and topics that we are discussing, and dealing with, here.

Just my own personal opinion's here, not an advocate for any agency, religion, or whatever.

"standing up, eyes open, ready to recieve the flame thrower",

or tell me you agree.

Thanks for my few seconds, and .02 cents.
 

Sean Thomas <nailer@mackbc.com>
Waaaayyyyy up north, where there is still snow in the mountains, , B.C., Canada - Saturday, July 21, 2001 at 23:49:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.197.23)

I agree with what you guys are saying about the Duty Roster. I am not a sniper, but instead I am a HighPower Rifle Competitor. I have always felt welcome here on the Roster. Even had some stuff I wrote about maintenance of the M14/M1A rifles saved in Articles and Commentary. Jefe I hear what you're saying about the differences between the Sniper, and the Marksman. Must agree here too. I would add that I am one of the Marksmen on Roster that find the role of the Sniper to be very interesting even though I will never be a real, slotted LE/Military Sniper. If I was younger you could call me a wannabe, but instead I am just a "would-have-been. Nothing wrong with being a wannabe as long as you are working towards making it real. Of course the wannabe that is really just a "Poser" pretending to be a sniper is another story.

Later,
 

Bill <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 00:25:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.63)

I'm with Shoes on this one. If Mr HepKat has gone to the trouble to record all the archived data on these scopes, why not submit it to Marius for inclusion in the Hot Shots section?

Obviously this is one of those topics that, like Clinton, refuses to go away or die, so why not feature it prominently?

Of course, the alternative is to just go out and shoot the damn thing and get to really "know" it, which is a lot more fun than reading about it!

That's what I'm doing, although now I'm miffed that I can only shoot out to 600 yards.

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 00:59:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.158)

One would THINK the mfgr would include instructions, and would have TESTED the dials to make sure they did, do what they are intended.
Well they don't, and the only reason they are looking at re-configuring them is because of ONE man, who has taken the vast amount of time to figure this OUT, and contact Leupold and TELL them they have problems in River City.

At 1k a pop......this is no small thing.

I'm not sure all here realize just HOW much effort went into this project........and it continues.

I for one, know of no other source for this info, if the mfgr can't help you, you are ususally SOL.

A big kudo to lito for this..I for one appreciate the heck out of it.
Same for all the other folks that have been of service, and given unselfishly of their time, talents, and knowledge.

As for the newbie, v.s. old rosterfarians........aren't we starting to beat a dead horse...let's get on with being adults here, and stop the pissing and moaning.

It's almost gotten to the point where we are PC.........
LORD forbid that virus ever takes hold here........
Let's not let it....
How about getting back to the laughs, and banter...we used to have a really fun and educational time around here, and I for one, miss it...and ALL who have departed.

SO, on with the SHOW!!!!!!!!!.

This post brought to you by a newbie........NO disrespect intended to anyone, just a personal opinion, and nmy usual caveat, fwiw........

Two Shoes
Dos Zapatos
125 degrees on the deck today, bad juju.......
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 02:34:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.176)

"How many times have I been in combat as a sniper?"

Ya want it in years or months......military or civvie? Good post friend.

Shoes,

Now ya know why I don't show at TP until 1730 in the summer time!

Sorry I missed you my friend.
Mike inTexas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
TEXAS, By Gawd! - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 04:49:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

Newbies v. grumpy old farts:

Newbies, get over it.
You are newbies, I spot ya right away, asking the same old questions we've buried long ago. I'm not offended by the repetition, and I expect the questions you ask, because not long ago, I was doing the same thing. Everyone has something to give here, most of it is found in the archives, but don't be afraid to ask a stupid question. One of these days someone may even stump ol' Condor. hahah..

old farts, get over it.
You are seasoned veterans of the Duty Roster. You know as well as I do, that most of your Duty Roster is read by scanning, reading what you wanna read, and if you are taking the time to read each and every post, you have way too much time on your hands! Ignore the newbie questions if you must, make 'em work for a response. Weeds most of them out anyway. Let's keep pluggin as much info as we have in the past, eh? Maybe someday, we'll all be qualified sniper/LE/hi-power/gunsmith/barrelmakers thru the Duty Roster school of hard knocks. Condor and PeteR could offer a course in sheperdry!!

later
 
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 05:44:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.113.85.114)

Ol' Dog, how's the fat chick with the hairy upper lip?

....and the neighborhood felines?

....and that "special" friend of yours with the garter belt and mesh stockings?

He, he, he, he, he!

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 07:17:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.27)

This is my second post so I am still a newbie I guess.

I have been in LE for 22 years, shot competition pistol for many of them, I also consider myself a pretty decent rifle shot, and am in fact the best shooter on our department, which is why the chief asked me to take on the duties of sniper. I thought why not, I am a good shot, a fairly good hunter, and have made my peace about the use of force a long time ago. I have never been in combat, never even been in the military. I registered for a basic sniper course taught by a US Army sniper instructor figuring I bust some caps and learn to keep a data book and then I'd be a sniper. Talk about rude awakenings, there is so much more to this than I first realized. (the advanced course taught by the same guy was even worse,but I must admit those 500 yd belly stalks in full gillie were kind of fun ;)) So I've poured myself into whatever I can find about sniping determined to learn all I can. (wife says I'm possessed)
My point. No matter how much I think I know I've found that there is always something else for me to learn, which is what brought me here to the Duty Roster. I look forward to reading the various discussions and hope to learn from the combined wisdom of all of you here. I hope that you all will be patient with me and some of the stupid questions I may have.

Now for one of those questions: I recently got several AN/PVS-4 night vision weapon sights thru the military DRMO. One works the others have a real crappy image. I think they need new Image intensifier tubes. Does anyone know off-hand what the stock number for these tubes are, or where I would look to find the numbers with out taking the dang things apart? I also need a technical manual for them, but have been unable to find one on the commercial sites that I have checked.

Thanks
Robert Opp <ropp@state.nd.us>
Jamestown, ND, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 07:30:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.234.104.34)

There are different generations of tubes that can be fitted to the AN/GVS-4, from "Gen 1" to "Gen 3" and one of your units may have a later (better) tube than the others.

Go here:

http://www.stano.night-vision.com/index2.html
and talk to their people... they can fix them, or upgrade the tubes.

Two Shoes...

Hush up yo' face about them newbeez selling their "no good, Bogus" M3 scopes!!! ;))

Where do you think I gets mine from??

From "Newbee'z" that can't get them to work right.
I have three MK4-M3 mildots... one was $650, one was $700, and the last one was $725 (but that's because it came with a new set of MK4 rings, and one piece MK4 base!).
ALL of them were virtually NEW, from guys that couldn't get the itty bitty cams to work right!

I'm beginning to take a different slant on this M3 thingie... Lupita doesn't put instructions in with the scopes on purpose.
It's an IQ Test, and a way for po' folks like me to get bunches of them for 1/2 price.

See, the 20 year old yuppies go drive their new "Beemers" down to the gun store, and look at them M3 Mildots, and say "Kewl", and buy them with their momma's allowance money, and when they can't get them little round cam thingies to work like a "Real Target Scope", they sell 'em to old, wore out "Usta-be-z" at half price.

How do you think us ol' broke guyz can afford all this junk??? It's a indirect subsidy, or a private sector welfare program for Ol' dogs...

Works for me!!

Moe... the fat lady is still there, but her heart's all broke... the cat population is gettin real low... seems some bum in the neighborhood has been SHOOTIN' them... can you believe that!
I may have to go out to SoDak, and visit some of these bumz next summer, wif my dog shooting kit.
=========================================================
On this newbee thing... Those noble souls that think they're on some kinda high ground... gimme a friggin break, and come back down to earth.

Look back over the last few years, at all the new guys that show up and ask questions about all kinds of simple stuff, to esoteric stuff, and get long detailed answers about things they can't find in books.

Even though I don't hardly post anymore, I still answer 30 to 40 e-mail questions a WEEK, from guys on this site, and many of them are 2 pagers, covering everything from rebuilding triggers, Teflon'ing riffles, and glass bedding... and of course, M3'z.

This isn't about newbeez, it's about snotty new guys think that in order to sound like they're "Hip", they have to be a wise guy.

Think back just this past spring... do the names like "Flash", "Big Will", "Matt", "Lt whatshisface" and about 4 or 5 others ring a bell??

Remember the little snot that bashed Tac-Ord (but somehow forgot to tell you that it was HIS fault that T-O wouldn't talk to him any more).
Remember when he PROMISED to post when the problem was fixed... it was fixed, and the little pussy didn't post it.
I spent two days talking to T-O to get it fixed for the little snot ball, cuz he had burned his bridges with them!!
(And, by the way, for you guys that somehow think Tac-Ord does bad work... forgetaboutit... they are first rate, and bend over backward to please... they can have my money anyday of the week [if I can find it]), difinitly first class!

The one thing these guys have in common, is they all start their first post/question, with a slam at something or someone... and they get it back in spades, and not just from me, but from a lotta guys that are tired of the 'tudes.

This is no different than in real life... go into a local "hang-out Pub" for the first time, and say "Xxx are shit!", and lemme know how you make out, and where to send the flowers!

There has NEVER been someone that has simply asked a qustion, "... can anyone tell me how to...", and the poor guy get's buried in information... most of which can't be found in books.

This is not PC "Barney and Friends" country, though it's on the way to becoming just that. Do we have to tiptoe around, and make it "touchy-feelie" for them?

Little Matt got his answer, and also information on why his cam wasn't "Bogus"... and YES, it's old by now. But his question was in a nasty tone, so his answer was in a nasty tone... something about "What goes around, comes around!"... HE GOT THE ANSWER HE WANTED, and in the tone he asked it in!!! And his friend, Lt whathisface, needs to leave home, and get a job.

I don't know how Pat (Mr HA!), kept his cool... If I were he, I'd have packed it in... he answered the little twit TWICE, with manors, and politeness (not like me, HA!), and still got slammed by the PC police.

It wouldn't suprise me if that's the last you hear from that part of SoDak...

Like Moe said this past winter, some us are old enough to not care what people think about us anymore... but I still get 5 or 6 e-mail questions a day.
But, along with about 20 others that don't post anymore, I'm just wore out with spoiled kids, that think that "They are entitled" to stuff.

Enuff
Wore out Ol' Dog <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 13:50:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.106)

Chill with the "PC" talk okay, Its starting to sound like you don't like S/C, or the poor unpaid, U-N-P-A-I-D, over worked, Council members! We don't need our drinks pissed in cuz you're mad at a newbie crowd. UNNERSTAND?????????????

They come and go like the fair weather shooting fairies, gun fags, wannabees, or WHATEVER they are. The password thing is so far about 50% effective keeping the unregistered riff-raff off post. eg - The general cyber-world weirdos and nut cases

We have a remedy for you "old farts", oops "Old Salts" in the works
Simple - Drastic - and ugh refreshing kinda like them pix of Torstens Sis dressed in, well ugh never mind.

Just give us time to work out the small details (a VERY sinister peteR laugh applied here) and I believe you KNOW what that means
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 15:03:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.53)

Garry
 

Garry <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 15:13:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.243.125.199)

Seriously though, I have browsed through another board that attracts multiple wierdos and wackos (Kevin you know which one), and I have seen the same people and posts created to cause uproar there starting up here. The name match occurs especially in the emporium section as the email addresses (when they want money) go back to the "trolls" if you will. THey don't make up a hotmail or yahoo address then. Some people just live to wrongly stir things up for their entertainment.
The email address may just be too anonymous. It is the councils site and any changes decided will have to be lived with. Period.

May I say a special take care for Sierra Echo!
Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 15:29:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

It's so refreshing to read that everyone is in such high spirits on this beautiful morning.

I wonder, what exactly is a "newbe" and at what point does he become a "regular"?

Also, if someone honestly aspires to become proficient at the art of sniping but doesn't get paid to be a sniper does that make him a "wannabe"?

To whom do I submitt my DD214 to become certified as a "hasbeen"?

Of late this board has lost some of it's home town charm.

Oh well, back to the loading bench and the range to study for the "Leupold M3 IQ Test".

out
 
 
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 15:57:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.33)

Geoff M
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 15:57:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.84.135.155)

What are the differences between a 40X Remington action and a 700? Why the price discrepancy between the two?

I am aware that this is probably the most basic (read rookie) of questions, but I still do not know the answer.

Semper Fi
 
 

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 17:01:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.131.32)

My call was right on... the little guy sent me many e-mails, and yes I did see that bolt, but he also addmitted to me, that he was the one that annoyed Tac-Ord to the point that they just handed him the rifle, and told him to GO!

Tac-Ord also made him an offer that would have had him making a profit on the gun, and he turned them down, all before he first posted on it.

HE also slamed a second rifle from then, here on SC, and admitted to me in e-mail, that it wasn't the rifle, it was him... and he never cleaned that one up, either.

He also promised me that if I got it resolved, that once it was resolved, that he would post it... and also take some of the responsibility for the problem, which he did NOT.

He only posted that they were making an agreement, and he would follow up with it, when it was done... which he never did.

I do know both sides of the story... I got bunches of e-mail from him, and from Tac-Ord... and others, that had something to say on it.

He's not a pussy because he didn't want the rifle... he's one because he broke his word to me, and because he never followed through on his own promises to Tac-Ord, or to those on this site.

I'm glad he's your friend... have fun together.
 

Tired... <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 18:45:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.112)

Paul,

The 40X is strictly a Custom Shop offering with a light externally adjustable trigger. Although the 700 is offered as a Custom Shop rifle, the 40X is not offered as an off the rack rifle. "Custom" gets more bucks!

I have fired a 40X and they are sweet. However, I would rather add a couple hundred and choose one of the fine custom smiths on the site to build me a custom.

Basic answer to your question, some of the other Hawgs could provide more detail.

Staying out of the current pissing contests, Bolt out!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 18:50:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.79)

Now Kelly, you know you shouldn't disurb geriatrics like that.

You guys freakin' crack me up. Someone said, during last weeks firefight, that it was like Jerry Springer on here. Actually it's better because the entertainment is almost non-stop around the clock.

Keep it coming.

Lt Whatshisface

Always wanted an original nickname!
Lt Whatshisface <Fang33937@cs.com>
Still Waiting, NC, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 19:38:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.196)

Aren't the 40X rifles clip slotted? Thought so but not sure.

Semper Fi

Steve
Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 20:11:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.186)

SPOTTER CONFIRMS CENTER HIT!!!!

RE-TARGETING NOW!

*:-0
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 20:25:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.177)

With all due respect, I must ask you to get your facts straight before calling ME a pussy, and claiming my word isn't good. I do appreciate your intervention, but I have yet to see a penny from tac-ord for this rifle. I am not going to post anything until they take care of their mess. That was the deal if I remember. My problems may not mean much to any of you out there, but I guarantee that you would be whining about this to, if you received the same treatment and half-ass workmanship that I did. I have shown the bolt to a lot of people, and will continue to show it to anyone who wishes to see it. I have yet find a single person that wasn't amazed by the poor job done to my rifle. If that makes me the pussy, then fine, but it isn't my name on that rifle. All I want is what I paid for, No more, no less. Right now I have a $2000 rifle that can't be shot without risking my own life, and I am not going to take that chance. I agreed to sell this piece of garbage to tac-ord for a loss. I am not making any money. When they come through with their deal, then I will make good on my word and make the post. That was the deal, so if before you go pointing fingers and calling names, aim them in the right direction. I know you may not like getting involved with some of these disputes, but you were a big part of this deal coming together and I appreciatre your help in that and I mean no disrespect to you. I just want the facts straight out there. When Tac-Ord comes through with the deal that THEY came up with, then I will follow through.
Chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, ID, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 20:33:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.43.6.95)

SPOTTER CONFIRMS CENTER HIT!!!!

RE-TARGETING NOW!

*:-0
 
 
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
POTTING THEM IN THE ELEPHANT VALLEY IN, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 21:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.188)

Just wanted to say ciao to you all for your help when I asked for it.

The reason that I have decided to leave this board is very simple. The board is not what it used to be nor do I think it will be again.

I have read it for three years with great laughter and interest. Now, when I read it, is with sorrow and dismay.

See you all later and good luck...

Darren
Semper Fi
 

Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 22:51:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.211.20.29)

Stick around people, some of us appreciate your knowledge and wit.

Later,

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 23:06:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.163.14.203)

This could get into a long rant about production tolerances, if you need/want that, contact me personally.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Sunday, July 22, 2001 at 23:32:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

Don't you worry 'bout ol' Murphy, we SoDak bumz are generally pretty casual, and we don't get too excited about much of anything, 'specially something some idiot posts on SC. He's good folk, keeps Hwy 14 safe and clear for me when I'm crossin the Missouri Riv. Paul, if you get yer butt out to SoDak sometime, we'll have to get together and as Pat(mrHA!) says, tell some lies. Got a PD population overload and a frosty mug of your choice beverage just waitin' for ya.

This one's for us ol' farts:

Newbie Snipey Training supplies

> 1 ea Videocassete of 'Sniper' starring Tom Berenger
> 1 ea 12 pack of Schlitz
> 1 ea 8 oz bag of Cheetos

Watch the tape, drink the beer, eat the cheetos, and by-gawd you'll be a
bonified Newbie, ready to take on the Duty Roster
 

JR out!!!
 
 
 

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 03:11:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.113.85.167)

A reletive newcomer to this board, I greatly enjoyed reading and posting over this past winter/spring..Have met some of you at the Storm matches the past three years, and you all made a period of convelescence[sp?] quite educational and enjoyable..

For now though::::Hey Bravo and CDC; How 'bout we talk 1911s,truck guns and heavy lead bullets via E-mail or on the phone??

outa here to go shooting.
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Pissin' off the deck instead of on the net in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 03:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.67.241.82)

Lately this site has deteriorated to such a low quality level that I am very sad about it. I have been reading, writing and discussing stuff here for roughly three years. The last 6 months have been the really worst.

I have learned a LOT here and I believe I have brought some insights from Europe with Torsten and TorF. Unlike some other people I do not plan too leave this site anytime soon, but IF Mr. Gooch succeeds in his latest project, the ILR, I guess some of the people will move over there. Maybe me too.

To me it is sad that I have seen many active people disappear and being replaced with the regular internet "You HAVE to help me because I am ME and you OWE it to ME"-people.

I hope some people would take their time and proof read their inputs first. Several fist fights here have started just because of bad choice of words. In text-format bad wording is a bad juju. Ask what you want to know. Ask the question, do not speculate like you know-it-all because if you have to ask, you do not know. The pros could also sometimes save a few extra negative words. Not all are sailors here :-)

One possible remedy: A 20 whattion questionnaire that needs to be answered 90% correct before allowed to post here. The data for the questionnaire would be "Required reading" in a file in the first page of SC, so anybody who WANTS to learn, can join. And everybody who do not WANT to learn will not get in. Comments ?

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 03:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.119.153)

At long range(figure 800yds+) when shooting a limited exposure target, what do you do about shooting in a boil? No wind, but you get that visual distortion that screws up your elevation because the target isn't really where it appears to be. Shoot through it COM? Hold low? If so, how low? Pray for wind? I hold about a half mil low, myself, but this sort of conditions comes up so rarely around here that it isn't an issue. But with my luck(all bad) it might rear it's ugly head, so I'm soliciting experiences. Even spin drift or "1911 country" is better then the last couple days.
BTW, just got issued MOLLE II this morning, and it sucks too. Buy London Bridge or Eagle, or the old H-harness. Semper Fidelis..Ken M

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 05:00:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

The new foam looks much different. Put it in the case for 24 hrs to compress it before you cut it and it's the same dense stuff as the original.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 06:18:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

What ballistic software do you guys use?
Would you recommend the Sierra product?

Ref: Handgun

How does a sniper wear his handgun?
Shoulder holster, thigh holster, web gear??

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 07:54:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.201)

ExBal
Oehler
Sierra
All are very good, and I believe ExBal (we have reviewed it here on S/C)is the only one that can be tailored to tactical shooting data by the "end user"
 
 

John, Nice to see you back!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 10:39:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.51)

To all you that actually take the time to write about leaving the site... what the hell? I thought there was a no whining rule? Pissing about how things have changed over time is like complaining about getting old...just shut up please...

A suggestion from a humble neophyte shooter to all those with several decades of knowledge that I really want a part of...

please ignore stupid questions and silly people... invest the time in sharing your breadth of knowledge on ME... if you are ever bored and want to chew on a question that is juicy....just tell me and I'll think up something....

Generally, I try very hard to answer questions myself before posting on this board, but if there is a need for content prompts (in other words, something constructive to do with your time)...let me know, I have literally thousands of questions that remain unanswered because I feel I haven't tried hard enough to get the answer on my own yet..

Here's one...

I would like to solicit advice on a "military bolt rifle" that outwardly appears to be stock, but underneath it's modest exterior, lies a finely tuned precision shooter. I would like input on the best platform to begin with... I may someday want to put glass up top, but for now, really good, adjustable iron sights are desired... I want to build this relatively cheap (under $750, which will still take into 2002 to save up)... I will shoot it at the annual "military bolt only" competition here in NJ, range max is 300 yards....

I was looking at the 6.5 Swede family, but haven't yet done my homework on how good the stock sights are... and what comparative tradeoffs there are vs other mil weapons RE the practicality of bedding, obtaining good barrels, inherent accuracy, price, etc...

please only answer this question if you are not annoyed by it.. else, ignore...
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 15:48:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

If you dont like answering a question that has been asked many times shut the heck up and let someone else answer it. No one has the right to attack someone for answering a question. It is the first time for them. Before you judge others look at your own experience. Jefe could not agreee more on that and I dont think you were slagging anyone with your comments.

Now I would never put mysef in the same catagory as either Gooch or Rick Boucher and few of you should either. I wont speak for them but I will say when this stuff gets so stupid on here, I just take a few days off until the BS stops.

It is funny to me to see a few now called old salts being so hard on others when just a few years ago they could not find their asses with either hand. Then the guys who want their asses kissed everytime they ask something. What happened to balls? Give the ego a break and be a man. Christ anymore stupidity on here and Peterson Publishing would own it!

So dress up the line, fall in and be counted!

Undude.

PS Darren get your Marine Butt back on here
MikeMIller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 16:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.189)

Well, shoulder holsters are out because your web gear gets in the way. Most guys use some sort of thigh holster. I have a Blackhawk, some use SOE, some London Bridge etc. Most don't attach it to their duece gear, it goes straight on to your riggers belt, so you always have some sort of weapon on your body at all times. Keeps it out of the way of mag pouches, canteens, body armour etc. Nothing's really wrong with the issue Bianchi holster, other than the fact that it's a PITA to use when clipped to a rigger belt instead of on the cartridge belt of the 782 gear. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 16:34:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

When it is answered, if you don't tell them what they want to hear then you get jumped on. If the people doing the jumping have the answer then they should have answered the question in the first place.

I don't always agree with all that is said on here but then we all have differnt opinions on these things and some questions get a variety of answers which is fine. You pick what works for you. The way I feel about it is, if you don't agree with me fine, usually if I answer a question its because I am familiar with the problem and have experienced it before and the solution I give is what worked for me.

Is it the right solution?? Maybe not, does someone else have a better one?? Maybe so, so you decide what will work for you.

The problem with me and others is we don't like getting blasted because someone else doesn't think we answered it correctly. If I didn't then they should give their opinion on it but leave out banging heads with me or others who gave a shot at answering the question.

When people are told to go to the archives to find the answer then they get upset about that and some will also agree that they "Deserve" to be answered right now and we are being jerks for not answering them.

The thing is there is a wealth of info in the Hot Tips & Cold Shots that will probably give them more info than asked for if they took the time to check it out. Its not that were being "Elitest" its just that all the info they seek is there and was answered by members many times over and over.

I won't beat this to death but I just wanted to say that it "ISN'T" a newbee thing. Its how some people who come on ask a question and then get after the questin is answered.

We were all NEWBEES at one time and thats NEVER been a problem on this sight since I have been here, only the ATTITUDES of some of the new posters. Just my opinion for what thats worth.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 16:48:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Jim, you can't beat the M1903A3.
I've got a 1942 vintage two groove rifle that let's me shoot into the low 400's any day I'm up to it.

McBride wrote, "The Germans fielded the best Hunting Rifle, the Americans fielded the best Target Rifle and the British fielded the best Combat Rifle."

For fighting, the SMLE No.4 Mk.2 is the best bar none. Just shorten it a little, put on a M-14 front sight/flash supressor and a scout scope and you got a heck of a weapon. The best "non-assault rifle" solution I can think of.

Ah...a shooting related topic...refreshing ain't it?

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 17:40:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

You guys have outstayed your welcome. You were asked to refrain and chose not to.

You posting priveleges have been revoked - permanently.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 18:23:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.89)

Mike Miller
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 18:58:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.54)

It appears that some of the brutha's on here done been shootin' Hoppes #9 again. Some of ya'll get riled don't ya?

Anyway, seen a question or two regarding boots. I prefer the issue desert boots for stalking. They darken up well when required, are virtually no shine and the soles are tan colored. Additionally they are pretty comfy.

Now. If that boot recomendation has offended anyone, or anyone is considering getting riled over it, I have a musical referal for ya. Its a little ditty by Ted Nugent called "Kiss my @$$".

Old Sniper instructor says, "A feller who can't control his temper has no bizness in da sniper bizness."

Out here.
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 19:04:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.122)

I finally got a chance to shoot a bag-o-ammo and got a few hundred rounds off. Then it happened. POOF! Black smoke, no bullet. Turns out I had a primer, but no powder. It's easy to get carried away on the progressive and overlook the low/no powder condition. Got a low powder sensor now, so should not happen again. Don't let this happen to you .......

Any suggestions on removing 230-grains of lead from a USP-45 barrel?
 
 
 

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 20:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

Heya Ken. Hows this for a cop out of an answer (take it easy you LEA types, I know how "sensitive" you guys can be!):

SITUATION DICTATES (hehe)

I decide based on hit probability and value of the target.

I can still hit a blurry target if I know the range and the wind. I have honed this skill with heavy duty bouts of drinking while I am off duty for just such a situation.

Of course, if its a low value target, I will probably not want to give my position away on it.

And of course, there is always indirect fire or air if the target justifies it.

EMAILERS:

Too may to answer guys, so dont feel put off!

MARIUS:

South Africa is being traded for Venezuela this month. But I did drink beer and make elephant noises at a female bartender last night. The next best thing to being there....
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Monday, July 23, 2001 at 20:19:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.68.137.207)

"Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for"

"If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck!"
 
 

"I once cried, for I had no shoes,
then I saw a man with no feet;"

So I took his shoes..."
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 20:39:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.68.137.207)

I had a friend by the nane of DEAN JENNINGS he was 87 when he passed away last year. Dean operated a gun shop here but in his last years only sold reloading components . Dean shot national competion after WORLD WAR 2 (22 CAL.).When you stopped in his shop you heard many different stories of various times at such and such a match .One story that i will never forget is the match he finished 2nd at was because of his love of BLUE BERRY PIE . Right after noon break his team was on the line . And to make a long story short he was timing his shots to his heart beat one shot was out of the Xring.Well Dean was 33 years older than me at the time of his death ,and every time i went to buy something from him i felt like a very young person just starting out, because of the conversations that went on in his shop even thougth many were reputitious
 
 

I've gotten a lot of good info. here,and i'll still keep lurking

Gary Kaney
Gary Kaney <yenak45@mwci.net>
ILLM, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 22:19:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.47.173)

Mr Gooch - Any dates yet on the ILR shoot in the fall???? How is the rest of it coming together?

Take care all, knee is healing fine, staples come out tomorrow and the physical therapist is kicking my butt..... But I like it!!!!
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 22:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

I'll be ordering a pair of size 13R desert boots tomorrow. I hate to camo-up a brandy new pair of boots but here goes. I guess it's just the cost of doing business.

Ref: ARD

It's still a pain trying to get a clear picture through my ARD. I keep putting it in and then taking it out because it darkens and fuzzes out the image of the target so much. Is it just me or is this pretty common?
I'd go for a sun shade but that seems so fragile......I guess I'll just have to learn to live with it. I keep hearing Gunny Hathcock say, "I just shot where the glint was."

Gooch,

I really want to attend that first ILR match. When do you think you'll have the schedule nailed down? Please not in October.

Ref: S/S Simposium in September

Still wondering who all's goin'.
How about all you guys living on the left coast?

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 23:39:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.56)

Fill us in on the MOLLE pack thingees.

What REALLY sucks on them?
Any good points?
 
 

Mistah Gooch,
Thanks for the sage advice on boots, makes sense...........
The "Nuge" comment would be a ROTFLMAO but it hurts to breath, ate a MONGO kagi-zuki BIG TIME last Thursday. :-(
 
 

Happy feet!!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 23, 2001 at 23:59:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.187)

I send you this file in order to have your advice

See you later. Thanks"

Never heard of the senders before either.

Desert boots-try looking at www.belleville.com. Excellent quality, excellent prices.

Kevin- I had the same experiences with the ARD. If you want it for glare-wait a little bit. Tenebrax is coming out with a new version that fits on the ocular to stop the fuzziness/etc...

Take care-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 00:58:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)

Re: New Virus

Unlike some previous warnings, this is not a hoax.....McAfee's website lists this as a legitimate, and dangerous, virus.

For further info, go to:

http://vil.nai.com/vil/virusSummary.asp?virus_k=99141

I strongly urge all of you to pop for the $75 or so for McAfee's anti-virus protection. Get your hard drive ate up by a virus and it looks like a bargain. Plus you get updates for free on their website.

Don't have any affiliation with them, just believe in staying safe.

Best Regards,
 

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 01:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.23)

I promised to tell you more about a torque wrench after I get it. I ordered a torque wrench from HarbourFreight.com. It has 1/4" attachment point and it measures 20-200 inch/pounds.

I ordered it 5th May. I received over the next two months all kinds of post from the company but no wrench. So I decided to try my luck in eBay. I won a really good used torque wrench on the same day I finally received the Harbourfreight wrench. So now I have too wrenches. Not too bad, now I can bring a cheaper one to the woods and keep the better one in my den.

Findings:

There are not too many torque wrenches available that are usefull for a rifle shooter. The needed range is 10-70 inch/pounds. The lower end is usefull for scope rings screws etc. and the high end for screwing the barreled action to a proper stock.

The cheap Taiwan/China made wrenches are usually 20-200 inch/pounds so they work OK for most people. Their price range is 28-45 USD plus S&H.

I won in eBay a Proto 6061-5 torque wrench that cost me 35 USD inc. S&H. It was used but it is in good shape and a new Proto would cost me 170-180 USD. So I think I made a killing with this purchase. It measures 10-200 inch/pounds and has a 1/4" attachment point.

Qualitywise the lightly used Proto wrench is WAY above the HarbourFreight el-cheapo one. Both work OK but the Proto is "tighter" the settings stay better and you just feel less tolerances all around. Snap-On makes also VERY good torque wrenches but even in eBay they tend to go to 80-90 USD. New ones cost easy over 200 USD but I do not think you really need one if you can get a good Proto.

I learned a few tricks in eBay when searching for a proper wrench. If you just type "torque wrench", you will get 5-6 pages of wrenches. You are interested only in those that have a 1/4" or 3/8" attachment points. The bigger ones allways are meant for more torque that what your rifle needs, so their adjustment range usually starts at 120 or 200 inch/pounds. They are useless. The lenght of the tool should be 10-12". If it is 20" forget it, it is meant for engine block removal and the like. To be able to solve all torque related gun smithing matters with one wrench you need a 10-200, 20-200 or 15-150 inch/pound wrench. Used wrtenches may be out-of-spec but they can be re-adjusted in a proper service place. I have a firend with access to those tools so I do not have to pay for this.

Brownells sells a really good torque wrench and it costs 170 USD new. So buying a lightly used one may be the best way to go.

Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 01:37:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.58.22.7)

Chad's out
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 04:27:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.188.220)

It seems there is a lota wisted breath on gadgets and not enough said about tecnique or maby some of us just ask before looking. but what about the instructors art of being able to read a target and trouble shoot a shooters error and make adjustments to form and gear.

First off lito will not end up with my m3 for nothing i love it and the lessons Jan spoke of about shifting POI have me sold. How can any of us learn to shoot well if the groups are all over the paper from every little tap?

my only question is what causes verticle strings? like real narrow from side to side .5 or less but tall, high about 2.5 to three moas?

thats all for now hope this is unchaptered teritorry and i don't start a war with this.

owe it all to 'lito for draggin me up!
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 04:58:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.135.167)

Used name brand wrenches can be recalibrated by the manufacturer. Find the sales reps or part stores that sell them and get it done if you have any intention of using them on scope parts. The torque spec for rings is only about 1 ft lb.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
exhaustion, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 05:40:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

MOLLE 2 differs from MOLLE 1 in the pack frame, the load bearing belt and the ass pack. The new frame is better than the old frame, without that stupid knuckle joint type fixture that attaches it to the load bearing belt, but the pack is still the same thing, IOW way too many straps and fastex buckles, not enough space. The designers got too caught up with HSLD toys and forgot that you have to haul gear with these things.
The new load bearing belt seems to be OK, all things considered. I'd like to say that I'll give it an honest evaluation, but to be honest it's getting tossed in the closet with the rest of this crap and I'm buying a SOE vest. I'm done fooling with the USG's inferior gear.
The older asspack was the best part of the MOLLE system, it had good capacity and secure attachments. It closed with fastex clips and you could stuff all the essential crap in there. The new asspack is a POS that closes with a zipper. A F*@#ing ZIPPER? What kind of brain dead idiot thought of this one? It won't last twenty minutes in the field before it blows out and it useless. You have to stuff a lot of crap into an asspack. This what happens when gear is designed by people who've never been to the field(probably never been in the military) I bought all my own gear. I feel sorry for the kids who aren't going to make this a career and decide to tough it out with substandard crap. Semper Fidelis...Ken M
 
 
 

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 05:46:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)

I was WRONG, you were RIGHT. Matt did not read properly. He was answered and his other comments were addressed as well.

I did not read properly first time. So this morning whene I came in I went through the whole Roster, from Matt's first time of asking, to my first post, and copied all related posts into a document, and have been reading it now.

"If I move my scope in the rings..." - answered:
- Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 21:52:52 (Implicit - do not worry)
- Tuesday, July 17, 2001 at 22:08:08 (Implicit - do not worry)
- Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 11:34:17 ((

Properly answered

"I'll be x inches off at 1000 yards" & "I just want the speed not the totally bogus data that comes on the BDC cam." - answered:
- Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 00:59:59 (Implicitly - check your comeups yourself, don't rely on others)
- Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 11:34:17 (

Properly answered

And then, at Wednesday, July 18, 2001 at 14:39:45, he writes (amongst other things):
"I had no idea that my original question would never be answered and .... Now would someone please answer the real question?"

Seems like it is not only me that cannot read! :-(

I'm not even going any further - no need to.

Next time I'll just keep my mouth shut!
 
 

But I'll also be paying more attention to something when new posters to the list bcomes a bit aggravated, to see whether I need to have "some discussion" with them.

Kelly and Chase were not the first ones to have their rights revoked, but the first ones to have it made known. From now on ALL will be published when we revoke. (Ken, you copy?)

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 10:24:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Kevin: Whay waste time with the ARD. Just attach a longer piece of PVC tube over the 2 1/2 or 4 inch Leupold sunshade and paint it. Just doubling the 4" sunshade will hide the lense glare and work fairly well as a mirage tube.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 15:42:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Assuming ( I KNOW dammit!) that you don't have bedding problems, barrel channel contact issues, or a inconsistant cheekweld, my guess is load charge consistancy.

You didn't say what range(s) the problems occured at. Makes a difference in diagnostics to some degree.
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, where no ones a newbie! - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 15:42:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.20)

You want a good quality torque wrench that is small enough to fit into a stock pack? Click on my name below. I saw on of these for the first time at the 1000 yard match at Capm Butner and it is nice and very small approx 5 inchs. The cost is also low. The only thing though is that this torque wrench measures in Newton Meters. This is not a problem as a conversion chart is readily available. Take some white out or other marking compound and place marks at the properly converted torque settings and you are in business. Did I mention that this thing is SMALL and LIGHT!!!!

As for all torque wrenchs: STORE THEM WITH NO TORQUE SET TO THE WRENCH!!!! This will also cause them to get out of calibration.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 15:47:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Thanks in advance,

drmarc
 

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 16:07:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.163.13.119)

Torque wrenches: S&K makes a nice inch pound wrench for less than a hundred bucks available from www.acmetoolcrib.com I've looked at them, but bought a 3/8 drive foot pounder. That was for torquing smaller sized bolts on the Cummins, not gun stuff, but the quality is excellent.

Rifle raffle: Do it!

I'd like to read any comments/opinions concerning Hornady 178 gr. A-Max bullets. PeteR called them, "Bad to the bone." They are sleek looking with that red pointy tip. I'm burning some more vacation time, to burn some more RL15 and Varget. Weather has cooled, so that should help. I'm going to mount a thermometer on my shooting bench, so I can record the temp in the data book. Outa here, new Lapua brass are calling.
Jerry <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 16:23:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.102)

NM is Newton Meters; this wrench has an adjustment range of 4 - 12 Newton meters or 35.4 - 106.2 in-lbs. To convert Newton Meters into Inch-pounds:

N-m * 8.8507481 = in-lbs

Therefore approx 7.34 N-m equals 65 inch pounds.

I am not sure of the adjustment increments on the wrench but 7 N-m will give you about 62 in-lbs.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 16:23:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

On the bench, you need an adjustable wrench, because of rings, and bases, but in the field, you need a small (kit sized) "T-bar" wrench, like the Seekonks, to remove your scope, or swap scopes.

I've had a 65/ip "T-Bar" Seekonk I got from Premier ($65) years ago, and it's rock solid... the chinee' adjustable went into the trash bin in one week.
Old saying... "Don't buy crappy tools!"

'lito
'lito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 17:03:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.120)

Any thoughts?

drmarc
 

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 20:46:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.163.13.224)

Like to thank Paul for the information on the small adjustable torque wrench. Seems just the ticket.

As to treating each other well and not "pissing in each others oatmeal", I'll only add Jeff Coopers comment: "An armed society, is a polite society"!

So what's the problem?

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 22:54:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.53)

Retail value would be a few hundred, max, if in great condition, would be my guess. REPEAT. Guess.

HTH

Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 23:15:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.18.199.124)

The Seekonk preset torque wrench is very usefull if the rifle system is set up for 65 inch/pounds. For many uses an adjustable one gives more flexibility. I know there are also other values available but 65 inch/lbs seems to be the norm.

Personally I do not plan on carrying any torque wrenches on a mission. Therefore the weight is not an issue, besides the half a pound an adj. wrench weights extra, is easily saved somewhere else within the gear carried IF one REALLY needs the tool.

Anyway the idea of investing in QUALITY tools is a sound one. With the el cheapo stuff you need to buy them twice. First the crappy one and then the expensive quality one.

I bought the wrench only to experiment with my rifles that are NOT set up for a specific torque. With the adjustable one I can test different settings and how they affect my rifles.

Vertical stringing: My guess would be that the rifle either moves (cheek weld) around or the ammo has varying speeds. At longer ranges these two possibilities are the most common ones. Also using a bipod on a hard surface can do this but I guess this was not a problem in this case.
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 23:21:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.119.63)

Regardless of how you feel about gun laws you gotta love this !

I was listening to the radio the other day, and I heard one of the all-time best comeback lines in my life. Note: This is an exact replication of NPR [National Public Radio] interview between a female broadcaster, and US Army General Reinwald who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?"

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"

GENERAL REINWALD: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range."

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"

GENERAL REINWALD: "I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm."

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

GENERAL REINWALD: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"

The radio went silent and the interview ended. And all I could think was, "Go Army!"
 

I hope everyone enjoyed it as much as I did, so lets get back to the nitty gritty!
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 23:48:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.217.215.1)

The M1917 was made in two calibres... first in .303 British, for the lend lease program with England... then in 30-06 because there was concern that the Nazi's might get further than they did... the 30-06's never saw action.
There were actually more 1917's made, than 1903 Springfields.
If it's clean, with a good bore, they are very good rifles. the action is one of the strongest ever made... many were converted to African calibres, for a "Poor man's Elephant Riffle" and they did very well in Africa.

After the war (the BIG one) the 1917 was continued as the Remington Model "30", and was Rem's only big game riffle for many years, until the M721 came out... (early form of todays M700).

drmark...
Save your soda can deposits, and get a good one... Sears (Craftsman) has some that are good... don't get junk, it will come back and bite you.
Look on eBay... clean used tools sometimes go for peanuts.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Hidin' in "The Rat Hole"... lookin' for the cats!, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 23:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Tuesday, July 24, 2001 at 23:57:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.163.13.101)

I opted for the local Sears Craftsman special. $68 got me a 25-250 in/lb 3/8" drive wrench at about 13" oal.

Works just fine and the Sears warranty can't be beat.

And it makes a dandy CQB truncheon! :-)))

Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 01:02:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.59)

Anyone within driving distance should check out Commercial Row, the vendors. If you need reloading components or precision tools, gadgets, and accessories it's the best place for bargains (including the net). Anything and everything in the catalogs is up there for you to put your grubby hands on and compare to the wares at the next vendor's display.

Amazing that someone with a rifle and scope to shoot graphic representations 40 inches high and 20 inches wide quibbles about a group half the distance of a black paster away from point of aim.

As for maturity of newbies, is it any wonder military snipers are screened with a psych eval and a meeting with a shrink even before his packet is considered?

Jan, looking forward to hearing if the hubby's zero problem is fixed with the Badgers.

OK, you guys who have just finished these neat courses, send in your pictures to Ken for posting (need new blood since the last Storm Hathcock Shoot).

Watched Rick Bowcher give an Instructor development class yesterday on the iron-sighted M24. Like watching a master mechanic walking high school shop kids around the tools. A front sight needed a replacement insert, and Rick whips out his tool box from the deployment box.

"Hmm. M25, M1D, Springfield, Brown Bess... ahh, here. M24." Just kidding!

Bruce, Rick says your Gen-2 Mil-Dot Master is the heat. Saves him time from using the abacus -- I mean calculator.

Jim, if you can find a Swedish M38 with match sights in 6.5 x 55 you're set. Maybe Shotgun News or Gun List. David Condon in Middleburg, Virginia, has gun auctions and estate sales, and they may be able to find you a few other guns (Springfield Star Gauges, etc.).

Guys, you really need to support Gooch's ILR Fall Match. Not really a whole lot of venues to exchange experience and ideas (that's why they're called "Exercises").

Desert boots are already tan. If you have to you can add color (red clay, green dye, etc.).

On the verticle stringing, isolate the rifle and ammo for consistency. Then have an experienced instructor watch you shoot. Flinching, trigger control (finger placement, squuezing of hand, relaxing on trigger break, etc), position, eye relief, ad infinitum?

Instructor tip: "Observe. Detect. Analayze. Correct."

Kev, I wouldn't worry about the ARD. Really. Proper site selection and being conscious of anything you're using that can cause glare and reflection will pay the dividends.

From what I've read, the Tubb fire lap kits seem to help out those rough barrels that need it most (i.e., production hammer-forged Remingtons). Doesn't do anything for the long factory leade, though.

Overheard at last match: cranky old guy shooting an M14 bitches about the youngster's use of an M16. "At least I'm shooting a man's gun."

Youngster: "But I'm shooting a man's score."

Ich bin ein Band-width Hog. This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
 

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, , NC, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 01:25:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.57.43.245)

Final finish. Only saw the results one time, used on a Savage barrel which was exceedingly rough. I don't know that accuracy improved much but there was indeed a major difference in fouling/cleaning.

Geezz ' Lito is no longer incognito!!!!!!!!!

Tech note, P17=30.06
P14= 303 British
Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Granbury, Texas, - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 01:48:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.232.237.23)

- - Unpaid Testimonial - -

Lurking Works!

Two common bits of advice I've seen on this board are: 1) Practice, practice, practice; and 2) Check your rifle for proper fit and function.

Well, not knowing squat about rifles, it took me more of (1) to be able to do (2) than most average bears, but it paid off tonight. Whilst dry firing my PSS, I begin to notice a drag on the bolt as I got to the last few millimeters of travel. Closer inspection revealed a shiny spot on the back face of the bolt. 'Lo and behold, a small portion of the back edge of the bolt was rubbing against the rear face of the slot in the stock; a massive violation of (2).

A few swipes with my Dremel and Voila!, the bolt now locks up quite evenly and smoothly. I'm looking forward to reconfirming zero and ringing some steel at Badlands with "The Mummy" in a few days.

I appreciate the help, all.

- - End Unpaid Testimonial - -
 

Steve "El Roto" G. <gopack@sprintmail.com>
Carrollton, TX, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 01:52:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.231.100)

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer the land of infernoes on rails, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 01:57:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.96.166)

Yupper... what Mike said.
It comes from Caffeine withdrawel... from 100 ounces a day, down to "0"... a very badd thing :((

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Hidin' in "The Rat Hole"... lookin' for the cats!, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 03:04:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)

When the US got into the war a couple of years later we couldn't build enough M1903's (.30-'06) at the Springfield and Rock Island Arsenals to equip our Armed Forces, so the arsenals that were building the P14 .303 rifles were ordered to quit the British production and start building a .30-'06 version, called the US Model 1917 rifle. These were produced at Remington, Eddystone (owned by Rem.) and Winchester factories.

The US 'Doughboy' serving in Europe in WWI was way more likely to be equipped with a M1917 than a M1903. There never really was (or is) such a thing as a P17 rifle, just as it is incorrect to call all '03 type rifles 'Springfield'. The term 'Pattern (P)' was strictly a British military designation.

An earlier poster was absolutely correct when he stated that Sgt.(Alvin) York used a M1917 in his Medal-of-Honor winning act of heroism.

I hope that I didn't bore anyone with the details! ;-)

BTW 'lito, There was an Enfield actioned Remington between the 30 series and the 721 types. It's the M720, and I have one:-)))

Dr. Who <asimon@gj.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 04:45:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.165)

I looked at the mag box and noted a sheetmetal stop for the rounds to back up into. I was wondering if this stop can be cut off to make the longer rounds fit. Or would it be easier to start over w/load development on shorter OAL rounds??

Any help appreciated as always. Thanks in advance. Joe
joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turlock, CA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 06:11:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.227.160)

You didn't indicate if you tried to load the .300 WM rounds to normal length that would fit magazine or what the accuracy was if you did. You may be worrying about nothing, so guns shoot extremely well even with a long jump.
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 06:34:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.75.36)

You didn't indicate if you tried to load the .300 WM rounds to normal length that would fit magazine or what the accuracy was if you did. You may be worrying about nothing, some guns shoot extremely well even with a long jump.

(intentional second post to correct wording)
 

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 06:36:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.75.36)

About them photos - I plead guilty as sin. Got a whole load of photos in my mail that is still waiting to be uploaded. Not many "course material" though I think. A whole stack of Trigger's on the .408 Cheyenne and then some others. Also about 2/3 articles/reviews/whatever to post (including whathisname's one on the Loopy post over time - hell, better make that more than 3 then!)

Migraine is a BITCH! Basically slept whole of Sunday and Monday. See what you guys do to me?

Must say, I like that quote about "man'sgun/man's scores" - too true! Too many times the equipment is the crutch leant upon, instead of just being the tool to get to the ultimate objective.

Bandwidth hog? Ken is still promising us all we want! :-)

'Lito,
Regarding the P17/M1917 being converted to an "African rifle". I've read a lot in the local gun mag (which is WAY above the US pubs btw) that this action is not so strong as the P14. If one wants to convert get a P14 to do it with, NOT a P17/M1917. To do with the time of making it and increased production, ie lower quality, as well.
(Or is my memory failing me again? Will have to look!)

Without being disrespectful, here I'd rather trust on the judgement of people that HAS BEEN (and still on occasion are) on the wrong side of a charging, pissed-off member of the African Big-Five fraternity :-)

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 11:18:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

A few years ago a P17 was used in a homicide in a metro. area of Arizona. (Tucson or Phoenix, I forget)

A drug transaction was interupted while in progress under a bridge over a dry wash.

The shooter (suspected to be a rival drug dealer)was on the next bridge down the wash, a distance of 700 yards. One round was fired.

The P17 was left at the scene.

Two conclusions:
1)The P17 can shoot.
2)Some bad guys can shoot too.

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 12:06:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

If your looking for a WWI / WWII Enfield or Mauser rifles you should check out Navy Arms in N. Bergen, NJ. They sell alot of miltary refinished and used collector conditioned bolt guns. Tanker models, jungle models, Czech, British, Russian full size etc. You might get a good buy. Their into that antique collector stuff along with modern replica stuff for military and cowboy action shooting.
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 12:08:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Regarding the torque wrench. I am not sure of the manufacturer but it is marketed under the Anshutz name, FWIW.

The Swede Gustaf 63 is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. I would love to have one of those. What is a realistic velocity that could be safely achieved out of this caliber with a 142 SMK?

Thanks for the info.

Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 13:03:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Lito and I had a conversation about this a bit back. You are right about the quality of your target and the fuzzyness from using the ARD. I shot with the ARD out to a 1000 yards and it did help cut down the glare though but I still had a good enough sight picture, given its nature, to insure a hit given that I was shooting from a known range.

My thoughts on the benefit of using Leupold's ARD are as follows:

1. Great for camoflaging the objective lense. One less circle to spot when moving into your FFP.
2. It does protect the objective from things when on a stalk when you do forget to close your lens cover.
3. It does work to some degree in cutting down reflection and that is what is was intended to do.

Other things to consider too:

1. How many of us are really crawling around on the groud? I know that I am one that does not right now.
2. If you are crawling on the ground, are you military, LE or someone like me. IF LE, is there really a requirement as to that of the military sniper? It depends, what is your environment. And if so, how often will you be crawling around to get a shot at the bad guy? If you are like me, how often will you get to crawl ;)
3. How many of us have the money or time to send in our scope to have it fitted to accept the ARD the military uses? I know I don't and do I really need it? I would like to have it but I really don't need it right now. For me, this interest is a passion and a hobby now that I am a PFC (proud f*&%ing civilian ;) )

Kevin, I hope you see my point and rest assure, my points are very debatable.

What I am trying to say in a nut shell is simple, does your equipment meet your field needs? This is one of my ways of justifying any purchases given that my wife always find out and that I will need a good reason to have it if you know what I mean ;)

Terry, thanks for the E-Mail on hanging in there.

Mike, ok BOSS, I am back per your order ;)

Marius, thanks for your good work!!!

Lito, glad to see you back. I miss reading your post. You always have good stuff to read.

Ciao everyone...back to reading new and upcoming posts.

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
SF, CA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 13:33:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.211.20.29)

Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like I have a lot of company in this area of "non-committed trajectory" issue. :-)

I poured some WD-40 down the barrel for penetration/lubrication, and used a 1/4" Delron rod and an 8-oz. brass hammer. Came out in 3 (significant) taps. I'm guessing the polygonal rifling, shallow insertion, and lubrication made the process easier.

Thanks again!!
 

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Gettin' the lead out, Colorado, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 14:48:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

"an armed society is a polite society, so what's the problem?"

We're all in our hides! You can't hit what you can't see!
steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Sweating my ass off, with too much mirage - SW PA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 15:34:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

Sssstoopp,
You're killing me - Brown Bess??!!! Its hurts to breathe.............
Poor Master Rick, he has to have the patience of Job. Dealing with both Sniper Pups, and YOU!!!! ;-)
 
 
 

On Torque Wenches (hee-hee) - I gots the Sears version mentioned and it works fine. Plus its a Craftsman and you know what that means. :-)
 
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 15:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.41)

Hawkins Position

an excerpt 'liberated' from the WWW.MARINESCOUTSNIPER.COM website

Hawkins Position. The Hawkins position is a variation of the supported prone. It is used when firing from a low bank or a depression in the ground, or over a roof, etc. It cannot be used on level ground as the sniper will not be able to get the muzzle of the weapon high enough. This position is very low to the ground, giving excellent stability and concealment. The non-shooting hand grasps the upper sling swivel, forming a fist to support the front of the rifle. The stock is then placed under the shoulder resting on the ground. The non-shooting arm must be locked out in order to absorb the recoil of the weapon. Since the shoulder is not absorbing the recoil, the face will if the arm is not locked out. The elevation of the muzzle can be adjusted by relaxing or tightening the fist (a glove should be used). If more elevation is needed, a support may be placed under the non-shooting fist. The feet can be adjusted to achieve the natural point of aim.
 
 
 
 

Riffle Raffle!!!
 
 
 

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 16:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 131.158.166.157)

Need some info specific to Northern VA. Thinking about buying a rifle and need an FFL holder to handle the transaction. Would like to know the usual fee for this service? Also, where to get the best deal on powder and the like in No-VA. I need 8# Varget in the not so distant future.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 17:31:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

I just wanted to call a truce and say sorry(esp. Lito) to everyone about my post the other week. Seems that I pissed a couple of people off with my post. My position in that skirmish was not as extreme as it sounded. I didn't mean for it to come out so harshly. I just disagreed with the way some things were handled with one Matt(I think). I still think things could have been better, but that's beside the point.

The point is that I want you guys to accept my apology. I was wrong. I think all of you guys are great. I've talked with a few of you and even met one. Semper Fi Paul. I'm a good guy too, just a little outspoken sometimes.

I've also got a suggestion. I don't know how well you guys all know each other, but I don't know who any of you are, really. I think sometimes when a person is writing to someone who just appears to be a nickname or something, it is hard to be personable. It's like you're not talking to a real person. So.....

My name is Steve Field. I'm a brand new "Butter-Bar Punk" 2Lt. in the Marines. I'm stuck at home waiting for my TBS class to start in November. I spend what cash I can scrounge up between school loans and other various bills on shooting. I don't drive a BigMoneyWasted, I drive a 68' Mustang GT(428SCJ, 4spd). Probably more than any of you cared to know already, but thought that this would do since most of you can't put a face with the name.

Sorry for such an epic post. Looking forward to some gun-talk.

Semper Fi

Steve
 

Steve <Fang33937@cs.com>
NC, but not for long!!!, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 22:12:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)

Darren, glad your UA wasn't permanent ... anybody with that nice a shootin' iron would have had to have been strung up if you decided to put that rig in the closet to get dusty and rusty.

The Charlie Gustav 63 -- was that a dedicated target or former military pattern rifle? Beautiful, and a bargain if they still have some.

Gav, do you guys still have those kangaroo shoots out in the bush? Read about a fella doing long-range (1,000 thru 1,200 meters, if I remember right) load checking on 'roos, goats, or donkeys (can't remember which), and it sounded like great sport (he had already set out meter markers where he'd figured they'd come bounding through -- kinda like a range card).
 
 
 

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 22:16:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.57.43.245)

Trying to reach 2,675/2,685 fps.
It's turned into a "Goldey Locks" story.
One load it too fast and the other is too slow and when I think I have it just right my chrono tells me something not to be believed.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Thanks,

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 22:48:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.47)

Have any of ya'll ever heard of the Fulton position? Named after Henry Fulton, NRA secretary, 1875?

I just read about it, and am wondering if anyone else is familiar with it? Or used it, in training, whatever?

Just wondering, that's all.

Get yer brains working, see what comes of this?

Take care, and Keep On Trackin'.
 

Sean Thomas <nailer@mackbc.com>
Northern B.C., Canada - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 22:58:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.244.197.6)

How do they (handloads) shoot? Bottom Line Reality check ;-)
Under 1 MOA? If so QUITCHER WHINING hee-hee!
What are you using for components at this time?

Chronographs can be quirky leetle deevices specially if they ain't an Oehler (sniff Harumph). I've heard tell most others will give erratic readings if the shots don't go EXACTLY parallel to the photoeyes/gates.

Thats this hillbillys story and I'm stickin to it!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 23:03:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.52)

Here's the skinny.....

Brass: Virgin Winchester .308 brass
Trimmed to 1.999/2.000 long
Flash-hole deburred and chamfered
Neck turned to a wall thickness of .0118/.0120
Inside diameter of neck brushed
Primer pocket uniformed to depth

Primer: WLR

Powder: Varget

Charge: 43.4 grains (trickled & weighed)

Bullet: Sierra 175 grain HPBT

Loaded Length: 2.795/2.800

Coaxiality of assembled Ctg.: <.0002 TIR

Smallest 5 Shot Group so far: .410 diameter

Average 5 Shot Group: .750 diameter (it's me)

Measured Velocity: 2,667 fps SD 8 fps

The system shoots fine. It's the chrono. that's giving me fits.
Once I get some cases fire-formed I'll really go for precision. ;-)
I try again tomorrow.

out
 

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Spirngs, New York, USA - Wednesday, July 25, 2001 at 23:44:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.36)

Paul- check with georgiaprecision.com on powder, or call Green Top sporting goods in Ashland. May well be worth the drive.
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 02:44:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)

I appreciate those of you who answered via e-mail, thanks. Joe

Joe <jeducos@yahoo.com>
Turlock, CA, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 04:44:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.218.169)

Does anyone know where a civilian can get the Individual Dynamic Absorption (IDAA) Kit NSN 6840-01-345-0237? This sounds like the best way to go for bite prevention.

Thanks in advance

Chad
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 05:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.187.137)

regarding your 1MOA vs 1/4MOA clicks. Did you read the HotTips entry on this? I know it is old, but I do believe the information is still valid:

Scope Turrets: 1/4 moa versus 1 moa

It is listed under:
-->Equipment: --> Scopes: --> Technology/Techniques: --> Turret increments

I may be neglecting that section now, but I did a lot of damn work in getting it there! So you people better use it! :-)

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 06:21:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

I don't have a long M70 action, so look at the magazine box, and see if there is a "filler plate" in the back of the box... it looks like a spacer box that is spot welded in place in the back end of the magazine box... if there is, then there is a "FIX" for longer rounds.
I have modified all me M70 short actions in 308 to take 3.3" rounds (.5" longer than standard).

Marius...
"So you people better use it! :-)"
Damn... next you'll be saying "Read the Arch..." aw you know :))

Hank...
If you are just shooting targets and hunting (game ;), get the 1/4" turrets... the M3'z will frustrate you.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Hidin' in "The Rat Hole"... lookin' for the cats!, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 10:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.59)

Hank..
What 'ilto said, if your not shooting compition and have time to dial and pay attention to the dials you will be happier with the 1/4 minute scope. I use the 4.5x14 on my 6.5x284 and the M3-LRs on the rest. I only have to go a little over one rev. to get to where I need to be with the 6.5x284 and would never change to the MOA because its more precise for me.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 12:01:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

Hope it helps, Brian K. Sain

NOTE: You L.E. and Military guys that are not members of the American Sniper Association need to be. There is another online list for guys with these missions. Snipersonline@new.rr.com. (You must be an active duty military or police sniper with the credentials to prove it). Great resource, as is this one.
brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 12:25:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.96.9.203)

Good Shooting,

drmarc
 

drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 13:12:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.163.13.210)

Brian Sain, nice post. I think you have simplified it a bit much though. LE and Military missions are becoming more and more alike. Take a look at Bosnia and the military mission. Very similar to LE. As to joining Snipers On Line. I hate joining anything that keeps out others of good knowledge and character. This whole idea that we can not share info bugs me. I have been in the LE Sniper business for twenty years and I can tell you right now LE Snipers in general are no match for citizens that compete. I have learned more from just plain citizens than any LE/FBI trained instructor in my life. I have worked on going for a balance between the military sniper and the LE way. I am convinced that is the way to being the best. You take precision out to distance and factor in wind and stalking and you have far more than a Ninja with a rifle. Honestly it makes me sick when some of the LE guys show up and unload the gear from the trunk and lay down and shoot at 100 yards, on a nice paved range, at known distance and then call themselves snipers. Hell I have even seen some goofs wearing High Power Shooting jackets and calling themselves snipers.

I think LE training missions should be two to three days long. Carry all you need and stay in the FFP until told to shoot. It is seldom sprint 200 yards and take a shot right now is it? Its wait to be briefed wait to deploy and just plain wait.

Not a flame on you so please dont take it that way. Dont fall into the trap that other LE guys have.

Undude

MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 13:12:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 13:46:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

Oh well that's typical of the government. Keep everything top secret until they have to dip in the publics pockets.

De Oppresso Liber !!!
 

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 14:00:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Anyone know about this report? If not, can anyone provide information on penetration and lethality of the .308 at these ranges?

Thanks,

Mike
BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 14:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.101.182)

Mike... I don't know the study you are refering to, but the 308 military bullet will penetrate at that distance... it being a 168 going about 1000fps... but so will a 9mm 124 at the same speed.
Neither are very spectacular at that energy level.

As to lethality... Brain shots are lethal Right now!... heart shots are lethal in about 30 to 45 seconds... the rest, if it hits a major organ, and the wound can't be treated, then it's "Lethal", but the traget may be able to send a few back to you for a long time.

TonyY...
Kevin can't join your group... he's joining mine.
The "Over the hill Ustabees"... along with Ken, Doc, Wes, and a bunch of other guys... rules are you have to be long in the tooth, and smarter than you are "fast". HA!

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 14:42:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.73)

Condor: Do I have to move to Connecticut to join the Geezer shooters ??

Ken: Rifffle Rafffle soon !!!!!
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 15:16:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Once again you are right on the money with your point of view. I would like to add one thing that I believe is true about us civilians. A good portion of us are former military, military sniper or former LE. Ironic if you think about it that we are not allowed to join in or participate because we are not, per say, active military snipers or military or LE yet some of us once were.

On the other hand, I do understand why the associations limit their membership too. It is a no win situation for both sides...to bad...

Thought that I would pass on my thoughts. This was not meant to start a debat of us verus them. I am just excercising my 1st Amendment rights since I figured I earned it as the rest of us has.

Well enough of this, back to lurking and reading Lito's post...

Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
SF, CA, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 15:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.211.20.29)

I know this has been hashed over ad nauseum but I've just got to share this one littel tid-bit. Forgive me....

In his book "Snipercraft", Derrick Bartlett wrote,

"I have a very firm policy on teaching our art to working police and military peronnel only. No one else needs to know how to be a sniper."

Now read that again. Notice the "our art" part and the "needs to know" part.

Don't you just love it?

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 15:23:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

LE/Military Only Training: As a trainer I disagree with this. Our policy at Willamette Small Arms Academy is to train people of character/good citizens. There have been individuals and groups we have denied training, but it was because of who/what they were or represented.

This whole thread started a few years ago when cops starting calling all others "civilians". That's BULLSHIT! I'll remind the cops that they are civilians, too. Military has the right to say that because of the mission parameters.

This goes in the category of folks wanting to be "special" and somehow that imparts the mystique and secrets of the ninja to them. Again, BULLSHIT!

If you want to be special, be a MARINE!

It hasn't helped that the "LE/Military Only" thread has been used as a selling point by a lot of major training schools in the US. Note, I have NEVER been denied access to one of these schools once I was able to provide documentation of who and what I was...

There are no secrets of the ninja...only techniques and tactics that should be taught to law abiding citizen with an interest.

Semper Fi,

Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 15:51:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.197)

However, I am a much better shot and much more knowledgeable than I ever was when I carried the rifle for real in the trunk of my car. I used to think 300yds was a long shot, now 500 is a chip shot.

Excluding the hasbeens and the civilian shooters is a big loss for these people. They are missing out on a wealth of knowledge and experience that will take them years to learn on their own.

I would bet the average military sniper is not more than 23 years old and even though he "IS" a sniper I would bet that the majority of the guys on here shoot way more ammo in a year than he does.

Granted were not fast anymore and we can't crawl through the bush like they can but I would damn sure bet we are a lot smarter and will out shoot 99% of them.

Hornaday found out what kind of a responce you get when you limit your competition to LE/Military only. They put on a fantastic shoot but only a handful of shooters showed up, most of them from the sniper school that had just graduated or they would have had hardly any shooters. When asked why it wasn't open the the civilians their reply was that they didn't think it proper for "Civilians" to be doing this type of shooting.

Who the hell do they think the Guard people are??? Or the police for that matter. I just shook my head and told them that if they wanted to put on a good shoot and have people show up then next time open it up to good civilian shooters.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 16:38:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)

We've done this before, but I still think it's a good one.

Just WHEN does a military/LE become a "Citizen"???

Can you teach some Yahoo from the inner-city, with a 9th grade edjamacation, how to kill at a klick, use C4 and RDX to blow-up urban stuff... spend months learning urban combat techniques, and in general, to kill and cause mayhem and distruction... I guess that's OK, because our government does it to hundreds of thousands every year.

But what happens when they leave... do you send them to a camp for "socially dangerious people", or do you send them home to get jobs, have families, and all that "civilian" stuff... and if so, what do you do with their "Toxic knowledge"???

Give them a frontal lobotomy??

And LE... what are they when they go home at night???
They are citizens! DO they live under a gag order, not to speak to civilians??? Not the guys in my town.

I guess there are some LE that want the "Secret Ninja" rep... but not the good ones.

And what is it that they are afraid of... there's NOTHING secret about the sniper "art" that more civilians know, than military.

The guns and sights are built be civilians... the ammo, and ballistic research is done by civilians, the radios, the books, the EVERYTHING, is invented, started, published, developed, etc by civilians, and those that learn it, will wind up dead, or become a civilian!

SO...WTF is so damn secret???

It aint that it's secret... it's fear! Fear of being beat by the "inferior, unwashed, civilians"

Back at the second Carlos match, the Marines sent two of their hot shooters, and the Army send five of six (2 Marine = 6 Army... the Army was under represented!).

The whole bunch got cleaned and waxed by gray haired civilians... maybe they should go to the civilian courses (like UnDude teaches ;).

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Hidin' in "The Rat Hole"... lookin' for the cats!, USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 16:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.16)

Sincerely, Brian K. Sain sain225@excite.com
 

brian k. sain <sain225@excite.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 18:09:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.96.9.203)

One should remember that snipers evolved from civilian hunter types. Ghillies from Marsh Wardens etc., and even today the FM says to seek civilian hunters and even poachers.

Mike brings a great point about the developing trends of similarities between military and police snipers. I would like to see the MPs (pa-tooey!) develop their program and a few have told me they are. Sniper doctrine, especially for the Army is really just beginning to evolve into a formal doctrine again after the shut downs after each conflict.

And as far as military performance in competitions, one should note that a military sniper normally only does that job for about 3years. Thats not going to fare well against a person who has done it for 20.

At the same time, there is alot more to military sniping than what is tested at most competitions. The Winston P. Wilson Matches (the only sniper competitions I have been to) were very well run and tested alot of stuff besides just shooting and stalking. In fact, lots of very good shooters never made it past the first event, the PT test.

I remember some MTU guys who figured they were going to go smoke that competition (they consistently won world competetions etc in rifle) and absolutely got their asses handed to them on the basic stuff like Land Nav etc. Again, the shooting and stalking stuff is about 15% of what a sniper does.

Final point is that EVERYONE has something to offer. MI staff peopl training us on Order of Battle, civilian poachers teaching us tracking and about local wildlife and plants, SEALs teaching us waterborne infil/exfil techniques, Air Force teaching us how to direct air strikes, Medical training (if you are in a two man team, you better know what to do, you cant cry MEDIC!) and the list goes on and on and on, FOREVER.

The diversity of experience from this site really contributes to the above concept, at least in my opinion. I have access to EMTs, Police, Etc., the full range of skills I need to study.
And especially, guys like PABLITO, who teach us political and social correctness....

And hey, I am just a former sniper, on a "call in case of real emergency" list for the National Guard. But, despite my weaknesses, I will be there if they call. And this site has made me better prepared.

THANKS TO THE FOLKS WHO KEEP THIS SITE GOING!
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 18:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 200.68.137.207)

On the LE/Mil v Civilian thing.

First of all this is the MAIN reason I am starting the International League of Riflemen. It's rediculous that on the day I retired off of active duty that I was no longer welcome in certain organizations and competitions. The day I retired I became a FAG (Former Action Guy). The VA fucked up and forgot to perform the frontal lobotomy by the way. This plus the fact that other organizations want to differentiate between those that have been there and those that almost got there and those that never had a shot at being there and those that just wanted to be there...........yada yada

Anyway, the ILR will be open to ANYONE who is (a) Not a felon and (b) Has not had his or her personal right to possess firearms revoked by legal action. So, no rapists or spousal abusers need apply.

Our Message board will have a LE/Mil only area so operators can go there if they feel the need and we will have a Mil/LE only competition once a year that will have LE/Mil specific scenarios. Other than that we NEED to mix the communities for the reason Pablito and others have been quite correct on.

Q. "Who taught the USMC and Army to shoot?"
A. "The NRA and citizen soldiers in the Guard prior to WW1."

Prior to Major Laucheimer and Lt. Holcomb (Holcomb, a Distinguished Rifle Shot, was Commandant during part of WWII and was the last Commandant to hold a leg medal by the way) starting to shoot NRA matches only about 30% of the Marines could qualify on thier service rifle. This, plus some poor showings in the Spanish American War, pissed off the Commandant so the two mentioned Officers formed a team and learned from the NRA. This resulted in every Marine sent to France in WW1 being a trained rifleman and made the legacy of Belleau Wood and the tradition of "Every Marine a Rifleman" possible. (Damn it! I'm getting teary eyed! "snif!") 'Scuse me while I get off of this soapbox!

Okay. Guys, there are two basic reasons that I can determin why people have "closed" events. 1. Politcal Correctness, real or perceived, is a reality of life. 2. Size of events. Why would Derrick want to let in civvies (I prefer the term "citizens". See "Starship Troopers".) when he can fill an event with cops/mil?

Anyway, ILR will fix this if the #^&*@$&^ Lawyers will ever finish the paperwork!!!

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Thursday, July 26, 2001 at 18:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.110)

===============================================================

The scene was an old abandoned Monastery...
The Monks had long ago left, when Janet Reno had made it against the law to hold religious beliefs.
There, before the "Instructor", stood the two young "Sniper babies"… one, a sergeant, fresh from the East L.A. riots, the other, a Marine with 9 years in SEA, and another 6 in the Mid-East.
The Marine said to the instructor, "Please, Oh 'Great One', Oh 'Learned One', Oh 'Bright Shinning Light of Sniperdom'... we've been here as students to learn sniping, for ten months... we've carried 185 pound packs, in the dark, through the swamps, with dogs chasing us, for 30 klicks... lied in the swamp water, with alligators chewing on our boots, and mosquitoes draining our blood.
We came here with many skills... we were both Eagle Scouts with merit badges in mapping, orienteering, survival. I was last years Palma match winner, and my friend won first at Camp Perry last year...
I don't mean to be pushy, but when are we going to learn some of the "Special Sniper SECRETS?"

"SHHHhhhhush" A hushed reply came from the instructor... "You are not ready, you have not shown the perseverance, the dedication,