July 2000
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, cain't wait fer dem "smart guns" MD, USA - Saturday, July
01, 2000 at 00:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, "cain't wait fer dem "safe guns" MD, USA - Saturday, July
01, 2000 at 00:35:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)
You can do the trigger your self, and save $50-75 bucks... go to "Articals and Commentary" section... artical is written by a very nice guy ;))
Don't waste your money on all that stuff. If it shoots 3/4 to 1" with Fed GM, then spend your money on ammo, or loading stuff. The Rem barrel is a $35 barrel (Remington's own statment!!)... and you can't do anything with it... before all the guys jump up about their 700 PSS that shoot .15" groups... keep in mind that you may have a good barrel (my old PSS would put 10 rounds of GM into .55 to .60"), but there are poor ones, and you can't make a poor one into a good one by throwing money at it... wear it out, then get a Shillen, Pak-Nor, Douglas etc later, after you are up to it... spend your money on ammo!
Also... don't waste your money trueing or lapping the action... you
will never see it on paper...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 00:36:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, "cain't wait fer dem "safe guns" MD, USA - Saturday, July
01, 2000 at 00:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, "cain't wait fer dem "safe guns" MD, USA - Saturday, July
01, 2000 at 00:38:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 00:39:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.4.24)
Texas Brigade Armory? Good luck.... I would rather go with Chandler for an M40/USMC style, Armament Technology for a M24/US Army style or Autauga Rifles for a rifle that you pick what you want. The Chandler and Armament Tech have more stroking done to them and the price's reflect this. Autauga can either work off an existing rifle or build it from scratch. I hear tell Mr Rice builds a tack driver too.
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 03:49:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.156)
Elevation problems:
Switch the front ring with the rear ring...see if this makes a difference.
do not put tape or paper between the ring and scope.
if you are afraid that the rings will damage the scope you need
different rings.
The Badger base has 20 MOA down angle and should give you all the elevation you want/need. the scope has 72 MOA (theoretical).
If you continue to have trouble with your rifle I would be willing to have a look at the rifle for you at no charge.
I do not want to come off like someone who blames “the other guy’s”
stuff but the base is made on filtering that won’t allow the base to be
wrong. It might be the scope
Let me know and feel free to Email me at Badgerord@aol.com
Martin
Martin <Badgerors@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 03:54:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.21)
To answer some questions, first the scope is the 6.5x20 LR, 30mm
tube.
According to the lupita catalog, it has 90 moa total adjustment,
like the MK4's(M1).
The base is the Badger 20 moa taper.Rings are MK4's.
I had this scope sent to Premier to get the MK4 dials installed, which didn't change a thing, as I had the same problem before I did this.
At first, I had the scope mounted on a MK4 one piece base, w/ badger med high rings?.
I had to put a .020 shim under the one piece base to get the ele up, I, like lito' want all the ele I can get .This worked well, as I had approx 65-70 moa's to play with.
however, I ( like The Goochster), do not like to shim a scope.( Bad Karma), sorry, BAD KARMA!.
So, to make a long story .....shorter, when I put this together, I thought I would get at least what I had with the .020 shim, WRONG!!!.
Be darned if I can figure this one out.........Mr, Thomas said why
worry, 53 moa's is more than most scopes have altogether, and I do have
plenty for the 1k.......But, alas, I am an OCD type person.....
alias, a perfectionist!, drives my spousal unit crazy......
I think the most disheartining thing, is when I look at a std 700PSS/w/MK4 FLAT base,std MK4 rings/staring at me zero'd, w/ 60+moa's ele looking at me w/out me even trying!!..........
Oh, well......I guess I'll just have to live w/ it.
Taking her to the 1k tommorrow, we'll see..........
Thanks to all, I really appreciate your attention and time.......tshoes.
( in the GREAT STATE OF TEXAS).
tTSHOES(TERRY) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 04:54:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.187)
I just finished a sniper course I put on in Poland. Poland because they are now NATO and because they rent their ranges to me.
shot moovers/runners! at 300 and at 500 Meters.
Now what are your favorites ?
I found for myself that it is easier for me to lead rather than trap.
And I have addapted the following for calculating the lead.
Over the years I have always tried to count seconds, ...twentyone,
twentytwo,... etc. and time myself with the secondhand on my watch.
With a little practise one gets pretty good at it, and it also helps
to calm down.
I watch the moover through the scope and count my "twentyone" second and see how many mil´s he covered during that time. Since MDM´ed the range and know the T ime O f F light I divide the one second MIL measure by the TOF and have my lead in Mil´s.
Target travels 6 Mil in one second, TOF to target .5 sek, = 3 Mil lead
Any other (faster) way of doing it ?
"Ende"
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 15:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.203)
On rifles: Two guys shine Norcal Precision/Jerry Rice and GNA Precision/George Gardner. They build better than anyone here can shoot. George has a rifle already built for sale on the Emporium with one of my slings already on it. I would be hurt for him selling the sling, but he just ordered a bunch more slings.LOL I can not say enough good things about both of these smiths.
Gooch that was a Norcal rifle I used at Carlos last year. It is a tack driver!
Onn US Optics. They have fine scopes. I just finished a scope test and tried three of the US Optics. The clearity is beyond great. They will mnake anything you want. Just be advised it will take six months to a year to get it.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 01, 2000 at 16:25:58 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.83.143)
Out here
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 00:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.157)
This post is regarding the MILES 2000 laser designators that fit at the end of the rifle barrels used for training purposes inconjunction with blank cartidges.
Any of you know :
1) Are they available to the general public ?
2) Any sources that one could acquire a small number from ?
3) Any ideas on unit pricing ?
Regards,
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 00:47:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.222.165)
Whew!!!! - I won't ever do that again... Just got done stripping
all that paint from SMTC of off my Rem 700... shoulda listened to Pablito
when he offered material to make some wrapping for it. I said "Nahhh -
Im gonna paint mine" Now I know why he was laughing..... :)
Ken ... trying to get this stripper chemical out of his hands....
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 04:25:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
ugly rifles shoot better ! and the paint keeps them from rusting
!
Do you clean your car´s engine after each trip to work ?
t : )
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 09:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.131)
I just got my new rig put together and learned a few lessons in the process. a) Screw length on the Badger mount and lack of any instructions of any kind can lead to some confusion. Not insurmountable mind you but hey, why no instructions? b) When shortening a factory barrel be aware that the external profile of the barrel may wander from the axis of the bore near the place you want to put the new crown. So you may have to put a turn on the O.D. to run your steady rest on and the cosmetics will suffer. c) Factory M700 actions can be "WAY" out of square. Yikes! this was scary. As built the factory barrel departed from the reciever at such an angle it was obvious to the naked eye that something was wrong.
Enjoy the 4th. Remember what it was all about.
Kevin R. Mussack <kmusack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 11:11:40
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.24)
YOU DID WHAT???!!!!!!
Hope you're painting it for the Rendezvous!
Kevin,
Thanks for the tip on the 700 barrels, maybe we can get it put in
the Hot Tips & Cold Shots along with that Master Barrel Chopper Bill
Rogers tid bits.
Yes folks have a GREAT holiday weekend and like its been said remember
what The 4th of July is all about.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 11:29:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.44)
The bore wanders off center in the barrel of the M700, and the action is visually un-square??
Get a Winchester ;)... By the way, where is Clifton Springs? Sounds familar.
Torsten...
I don't clean my engine every time I drive to work, but I DO clean
my guns every time I shoot them ;)...
... but seriously... a paint job has some disadvantages.
The seasons change, so the layers of paint get thicker and thicker,
or you wind up dunking your hot stick in paint remover 4 times a year.
If you see a new gun you JUST HAVE TO HAVE, your painted one is worth
about zip to sell, unless the paint job was done by Van Gogh, and is signed...
Even in the same area and the same season, the suround may go from
green leaves, to yellow dead grass... (and IF you're shooting in Californis,
you may need BLOND paint ;)...
and no matter what color it is, it still has the profile of a rifle,
if it's seen.
If you use a rifle Ghillie, (cammie Jammies)... you can change the colors in minutes, and it breaks up the profile of the gun.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
At my sewing machine, makin' little jammies..., in a state of confusion!,
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 13:42:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)
Pablito, now why in heck would you want to sell off your painted beauty for some other winking harlot in the gun shop? I think I'm in the same school with Gooch and Torsten. Doesn't matter what she wears, as long as when the trigger breaks she always puts 'em in the same place.
My brother just had his first fully-customed sniper rifle completed, and as the gunsmith waved bye-bye like a Mom on a kid's first day at school, he sadly knew the first thing my brother was going to do was paint her all over.
I have been in units that have had both trains of thought on the way guns looked in the arms room racks. One commander went absolutely sputtering apoplectic that my weapons didn't look like they just came off the assembly line -- NO cammy paint or non-reg appearance was the standard of the day. I am proud to say that as an XO and commander, when troops and other commanders asked me how the weapons could go in the racks in the arms room I told them "I don't care if they're painted like the National Christmas Tree. If they're CLEAN and accounted for, we're ready to go to war."
No unit that passed a white glove inspection was ready to go to war, and vice-versa.
As for "cammy jammies," have you tried the lightweight (almost see-through) polyester fabrics you can get from G Street or Hancock Fabrics? Sew tubes like stockings to slip or tie over the barrel, fore-end, and scope (and bipod, if you use one), with some leafy break-up patterns cut with sawtooth "pinking shear" scissors. Lots less messy than burlap, lighter than mosquito net. Dries faster than parachute fabric, and weighs nothing. Serves its main purpose of slipping on, breaking up the pattern of your rifle, and most importantly, not affecting a zero shift. You can get it in all kinds of earth-tones (OD, greens, tans, khaki, grey, and other exotic colors for you Left-Coast guys, Mike).
If you live within a day's drive of Camp Perry, Ohio, and can spare the time to shoot over a weekend, you should seriously consider shooting the National Matches. The Long Range prone days are Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, 11-13 August.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 14:46:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Remington doesn't make a "Bull Barrel" in their M700 line. The biggest you can get is a medium weight barrel on any of the 700 line, including the M700-PSS, and M700-VS rifles.
For a heaver barrel, you have to go to the 40-X Series (big money, long wait), or the the Winchester Stealth rifles.
For training in long range shooting, and camo training stuff, look into Storm Mountian Training Center, in West "By Gawd" Virginia.
Go here...
http://www.stormmountain.com/
... and you will be in Sniper "PIG" heaven (and sheepies too;).
"Sinister Dave"...
Thanks for naming the new 1964 - M70 Bull Target/Lyman TargetSpot
rig... "The HARLET"... it fits, and cost as much ! :)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 16:37:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Thanks for any advice,
Dan-O
dan-o <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
mo-town, WV, USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 16:53:08 (ZULU) (your host
address: 32.100.242.121)
you dont sell a Mauser 86, or M 24 / M 40 for that matter , you are
burried with it !
Yes, I too clean my rifle when I come home from a day at the range, but I dont start paranoid cleansings every 100 Rounds.
And when I am shooting three days in a row on a military training
ground I dont clean until I am home, which may be after 500+ Rounds.
Only exeption is when it rains and the piece could rust, or if I
and the rifle took a tactical mud bath !
I dont shoot well enough under tactical conditions that I ever noticed a degration of accuracy out of my rifle. Be it due to building up fouling in the bore or dirt on the outside.
It is usually a "head space" problem of the shooter rather than the rifle needing it.
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 17:21:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.50)
I agree... I never sold a 40-X in my life (and more of the rascals keep following me home;)... but I did sell both of my PSS's, and I'm glad of it... better guns followed.
And I just sold a Mini-14, and a 45-70 Ruger #1 Commemorative, to help finance the new M70 "Harlot"... I won't miss either one of them.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 17:41:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
I am in search of an article by an Army type that was published in 1997-98 that concerned the use of snipers in OOTW. I raped the hell out of it for a lesson plan whilst at the NGB school but am unable to find the original.
It starts out "OOTW put US soldiers at risk in tactical situations that are both ambiguous and dangerous"...It goes on and talks about ROE and counter-sniper missions.
I am putting together a counter-sniper guide and would like to reference this article but can't find the original! I've gone through the CALL (Center for Army Lessons Learned) database and a few search engines at CALL, Ft Benning, the BCRA (Boucher Center for Reprobate Activities) etc. I think the article was in Infantry Magazine which doesn't have a website that is worth a shit.
Anyone seen this thing?
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 18:43:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.140)
I get a lot of good practice with one of my friends when shooting out in the glorious squirrel infested fields we have around my area. We have gotten good at using dead squirrels as markers for both direction and range. For precision it isn't the best method though. And that in an understatement when we first arrive and haven't fired a shot yet. For a the most fun we typically like to be watching the same target before taking a shot that way one person can spot the hit that the other person made.
Any recommendations on how to improve in this area will be greatly
appreciated. Seems it takes forever and a day to relay the directions to
a target by giving descriptions of the hillside. It is only compounded
by the fact that my target blends in with it's surroundings so well.
For bearings I was toying with the idea of strapping small compasses to the scope tubes and getting it so that when one rifle was on target the direction could be given to the other shooter who could point is muzzle in that direction. Upon looking into it I found that the compasses were either too clunky, too cheap, or not accurate enough. I'd like to try to get a compass that could give a reading down to within 5 degrees or less. What I'd really like to see is a scope that could give a directional heading through the top of the scopes view. When two rifles equiped with such scopes are used at a distance between the two of 4-5 feet it should guarantee that the target will be within view given correct elevation, range of target, and the scopes magnification power. Making a scope that could do this so that it was small enough and light enough would be a real challenge I would imagine. And the next step from there would be to put an elevation dial on the side to give elevation of the muzzle.
When it is all said and done the effect I have invisioned is much
like a plane's instruments. The one thing I wouldn't want is clutter though,
just a small portion of the scopes field of view dedicated to giving a
compass bearing.
Lay it on me, I'm ready!
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, Everything I learned about guns I learned in preschool.,
USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 20:30:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.2.15)
Sniper-Spotter team.
You don't need a compass, all you need is to become proficient at
using range cards.
Go on to TRGT's web site and study the range cards that they have
in their Data Book. What you need is to practice working as a team.
A good example, taken from the USMC Sniping manual.
Your spotter sees a target, with out range cards or a sketch, the
communication would be like this;
Observer: "I see something over there."
Sniper: " Over where? "
Observer: " Way over to the right. "
Sniper: " Where to the right? "
Observer: " Beside that big tree. "
Sniper " Which tree? "
Or how does this sound,
Observer: " Target, sector A, Barn Door, 800 meters "
This can be achieved by practicing field sketching, use of range cards and working together. Also using mil dot reticles or holding a few fingers to as a reference work like magic.
So, check out the TRGT site and practice, practice, practice!
Kush out.
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 23:04:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.154)
Failing that 'Follow My Tracer'
And of course... got snowed on yesterday! Good thing I had my parka
and other winter kit in my ruck (seriously) - Out wearing shorts and sandals
- then what comes down - almost 6" of snow - So I got the input on the
AICS under winter field conditions that you wanted Marius - and it wasn'y
unbearable in all that kit.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, July 02, 2000 at 23:04:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.143.101)
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 04:29:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
4.20.172.36)
Thanks for any Info!
Guy <aurandga@bright.net>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 16:14:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.143.7.247)
yes, it´s called Mil Dot Master , and works in most Palm´s!
t
t <7.62@lasercon.de>
DE - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 16:52:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.17)
B. Douglas: How about this one:
Large Oak alone in the center of the clearing (or large rock, red
flowers, etc)
Check
27 mils right
Check
14 mils up, a squarish shrub
Check
Four mils to the right, a woolybuggar having a bad hair day, make
it worse
Check and bang.
Dano / Bruce E: this is THE way to go for small applications like this. Just beware, as JB weld WILL ruin your day given the chance. Anyone who doesn't think that "permanent" discribes this stuff, I can show you a 4X4 (not mine) with a 4" circle of JB that replaces a knocked out section of transfer case, and it still works! As for Loc-Tite, most of the ones used for scope applications can be "unloctited" by either placing the part in boiling water for a few minutes or just BARELY touching the bolt body with a propane torch. I'd hold the ring barely in the water, but not submerge the scope!
No takers on the constitutional question? C'mon guys, I KNOW you
read the document that we've sworn an oath to uphold :-) Everyone have
a GREAT 4th, and let's spend it in a way that would make Jefferson, Washington,
and Franklin proud.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, July 03,
2000 at 18:00:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
On compasses next to scopes: Scopes/rifles are made of metal and will
throw off a compass. Just watch the needle on a compass move as it gets
close to a rifle.
On non-lethal self-defense items: Read Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime". According to his studies, you are more likely to be be unharmed in an attack if you use a firearm, but if you don't have a firearm you are more likely to be unhurt if you comply with the attacker's demands vs using a non-lethal item.
IF you still want a non-lethal alternative, there is a product known
as bear repellant. It's a can about 1 1/2 x 4 inches of 10% pepper spray
that shoots out 30 feet that is supposed to stop a grizzly bear attack.
They give them to backbackers in Donally Park in Alaska.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 18:03:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
I have one buddy where our communication skills are good enough to
relay directions to the target fairly quickly. He is the guy that often
is with me when I am out shooting and together we do pretty well. The thing
that throws a wrench in the gears is when I head out with somebody new.
All of this is normally compounded when we go to a new place to shoot,
the terain features take a bit of getting used to before we can get into
a pattern.
A MilDot scope would be nice and it is planned for in the budget. It will be a bit of time before I grab one op though.
I'll look into the RangeCards, I'll probably get a couple terain
maps drawn up of the places we shoot most. Then I guess it is just a simple
matter of making a easy to follow grid on it.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, I'm gonna sit outside and watch the bug zapper for the 4th.,
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 19:14:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.2.182)
Thanks for the info guys. I had an accidental discharge with the "submit"
button.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, opps, what am I thinking?, USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at
19:16:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.2.182)
Since I received some questions to my mooving target calculation here
it is in a little more detail.
The problem is that the target will be at a further point by the time the bullet gets there, then at the time you fired it right ?
I find it difficult to judge the speed in fps right and then apply some sort of memorized lead.
So, I give the target one second of travel in which I measure its traveled distance in Mil. Counting "twentyone" works for me and is close enough. Just practise a little and you know how fast or slow you have to say "twentyone" to cover one second.
So you then know the target covers say 6 Mil in one "twentyone" second.
From the range that you have milled you can figure your TOF to target will be say .3 Seconds.
Given that the target will cover 6 Mil in one full second it will only cover one third of that, 2 Mil , in .3 of a second.
Apply a 2 Mil lead and fire.
Doing it here on paper is a lot harder that doing it in a Mil Dot Scope. It only takes a extra second to figure out and will be on the money 90 % of the time.
And it is easy to memorize the TOF´s. One second is usually 600 Meters with most 7.62x51 loads.
Hope this works for you
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
DE - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 19:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.156.8.143)
NIGHTHAWK CBS - Well after some discussions w/ Jerry we got down to
the problem. Silly me I was using CLP(BreakFree) the CF issue for the C7
- same thing Y'all use on the M16. Well it has teflon with is good for
aluminum squirrel guns - but really shitty in the bore for CBS
I had over the course of time become used to the smell of a rifle
fired that had CLP in the barrel (even dry) I assumed it was just the residual
teflon coating burning off - Well I think I am likely right but it really
seems to throw a F*** into the works for CBS - about 2 Moa with mine.
I just figured I'd note it and live with it - but Mike Miller quickly
disuaded me from that, and in some converations with Jerry we narrowed
down the problem to the way I clean - are actually the last stage in my
cleaning which was always to punch it through with CLP -anyway no more!
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 20:41:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.132.163)
Kevin, sorry to hear that. I know where you are coming from too, I
CLP my "aluminum squirrel guns" also. I forget how long ago the roster
covered it but thankfully before I got my match barrel I learned to keep
those teflon particulates out of the bore. I still use a bit of the stuff
to clean out the receiver and the gunk but that is it for me now.
Anyone know how long(round count) it takes for that stuff to shoot
out of the bore of a rifle that has been cleaned with CLP or other one
step cleaner/lubes? Just curious how long that stuff sticks around, kind
of like if you swallow a piece of chewing gum it is supposed to stay in
your crap factory for up to 10 years.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 22:56:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.1.98)
- Oh, now the CBS is pretty well indistinguishable from others in the
group - be it three five or ten rds.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 23:06:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.144.85)
Good to hear. I was hoping it wasn't something that would take 50+
rounds to clean out through firing. Guess it is more like something that
effects first round shots and the few there after the fouling shot.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 23:17:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.2.71)
Mover's huh? Find the direction the target is moving at the moment.
Move your hairs in a line the same as the target is moving up down right
left whatever. Overtake the target and when you cross it squeeze the trigger.
Your sense that the hair is over the target combined with the fact that
your catching it will establish the lead. IF it's moving fast you will
be moving faster to catch it making the lead longer. Don't jerk the trigger
and follow through with the swing. You'll come as close as anything you
can do. That trapping method doesn't work as Torsten is finding out unless
he has to crawl under a fence or stop and unlock a door. I really doubt
if a really moving target will give you time to calculate. Those movers
on a range might though. If that sounds too simple just go try it. (about
a thousand rounds or so).
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 23:31:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY TO ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 23:54:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.45.212)
Now I wonder how many of the Founding Fathers are rolling over in their
graves as they look down on us now. Even though this is still the best
country on Earth, man do we have a long row to hoe getting back to the
basics of what the country was founded on.
Shootem while you gottem!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 23:57:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.45.212)
Hey all,
Picked up an inexpensive Savage 110 .243 yesterday at a gun show
for a deer rifle. The action was loose in the stock. Can someone e-mail
me the torque values for those screws? Also, is the barrel supposed to
be free-floating by design? It has the hardwood stock. Mine touches right
out at the front of the fore-end. TIA Paul
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 01:12:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.107.24.123)
Is anyone using an AR10 out to 800m? What is your optics set up to
give enough elevation?
Thanks
Green <greentips@hotmail.com>
Canada - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 01:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.112.244.21)
On movers,
The dreaded math again,
First find the lead in feet:
target speed (fps) x time in flight (sec)
Once you have that, then get the lead in mils:
(Lead in ft from center mass X 12) - 6 / (range x .035)
Then take in to consideration full/half/no lead, wind adjustments/angle/altitude/temperature, the list goes on and on and as Bill said, try about a thousand rounds or so.
Later dudes
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 01:58:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.130)
Ambush Method vs. Follow Through (catchup)
If you got the time use it, the ambush method allows for a better postion etc. - Most trap shooters aren't using slings/bipods-
- Walking tgt, full mil lead (use the first dot) 7.62 175gr
At least close enough for Gov't work
Running (in Kit) around 2.5 mils. better yet use the G'pig |-->
rounds down range:)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 02:37:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.48)
I like the ambush and trap method, and speed detection via the plan
described by Torsten. Kevins right attempting to follow through with a
bipod or pack from prone position, keeping a sight picture, and cycling
a bolt gun is awful tuff. Different ballgame from scattergunning.
A Mil-Dot Palm 'mputer Torsten you're ona roll again! TLMAO!
A electricians soldering iron can also be used for application of heat to a loctited screw or bolt, better heat control and you won't burn up that custom paint job.
Once again have a SAFE and happy 4th of July America.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 03:15:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.105.157)
Hey Gents, my partner is about ready to install a Leupold 3.5-10x40mm
M1 Long Range on his .308, will he need a tapered base to get it out to
1,000 yds.? I'd appreciate a response from someone who actually has one
mounted on his M700. Thanks.
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 03:16:52 (ZULU)
(your host address: 170.76.45.206)
I heard a rumor that the Unertl M40-10X is going to be manufactured
by someone else (U.S.Optics??) and that eventually it would be available
to the public. I know that it is impossible to get this scope now. Does
anyone have any information on this to verify or deny this information?
How would it be to get one of those on your shooter. I know a lot of you
have experience with them, but for the rest of us, that would be a real
treat. Any info on the scope or maker is greatly appreciated.
-c
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, id, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 03:53:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.28.208.35)
Beginning shooters (I mean beginners at movers) will always be attracted
to trying to figure out the lead and they won't realize that they can track
off a bipod or sand bag a target moving 30 to 50mph. They also will tend
to reduce their scope power too much.
They may even forsake a rest for off hand shooting too much.
No reason to shoot a running target at a range you couldn't hit
a stationary one offhand.
If you try to calc a running Antelope/coyote/jackrabbit he'll be
in Dallas before you get the figures done. If you're shooting people walking
casually down a boulevard at 3mph. You problem is no where nearly as great
or some of those fixed speed movers.
Sniper training didn't used to cover this stuff but today I think
they do more. If you can hit a running jack rabbit goin west from 1 to
2 hundred hards....1 or 2 times out of 5 shots your getting there. May
the Force be with you! Cause you gonna need it. Prairie dogs changing holes
is a good way to learn it too. That's probably one of the hardest targets
going but if he stops before he goes down your trap method will work sometimes.
But then he's not a mover...is he?
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 04:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Bill,
dont want to start a pissing contest, but what you are telling me is to apply the "skeet" shooting aproach to the problem.
Which will work, but at what distance ?
I had the problem teaching a class to shoot a running moover at 300 and 500 meters. I put my ball´s on the block, did my calculation and fired a magazine full out of my ugly rifle.
So was I only lucky ?
As soon as the target stops I will miss because he wont be in the place the bullet will be, so can your "only when he stops" idea please.
Also I find my way of calculating a lot easier than the fps rountine.
I dont need to know the speed in feet per second, I need to know the speed Mil per Second at the give range and the TOF thats all!
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 06:11:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.14)
Yeah know what you mean, this stuff is so flaky it's pointless to argue
methods. You know I wish I had a better plan.. really. And for target range
movers that may be the best way. Just dealing with the human senses on
something moving is a real problem. Not everyone sees the same thing and
reacts the same way.. For instance I have people ask all the time. Well
how much do I lead them? I tell one guy 3 feet and he is off 1 foot the
next guy is on and the next one is back 15 feet. I think I'm trying to
say here is that some kind of tracking seems necessary. And I mean something
that moves while the target moves. Some shots I just get out in front of
the target establish a lead and try to keep the swing even as I fire but
always ahead sometimes several feet. Maybe you shouldn't listen to guys
that shoot targets this fast (30 to 50). Actually the shape of the targets
we shoot is probably 2 or 3 times the width of a man and that helps. We
do pretty good on Jack Rabbits though and they are 3"X1.5 feet. Nobody
hits em all and it's hard to teach method that doesn't include figures
I know what your up against believe me. There are two guys I hunt with
all the time. One insisted that nobody could hit anything running with
a rifle. He now regularly kills at 100 to 150 yards coyotes and sometimes
rabbits. The other guy can hit 5 or 6 clay pigeons out of 10 with a 22.
rifle thrown from a machine. He and I once hit a jack running flat out
through the sage at 30 degrees at 150 yards at exactly the same instant.
And once a coyote at 100 yards running 4 times between us before he stopped
sliding to a stop. The problem is it takes so much practice that students
aren't likely to show much progress quickly on the range.
I'd better just fade to black on it because your business is different
and your target speed is much more constant unless they are on the run.
I would say this though, most of the old coyote hunters out here would
put a man away real fast with him running any way he wants to run because
they are so slow. I don't want to bore you guys with bull shit that could
just be old hunters telling whoppers. I've tried figuring those leads though
all my life and it's nice to deal with the speeds and figure out just exactly
what it should be but the kills I've made by just "tuning the force" were
far better than anything I could ever calculate.
I really wish I could help you more and I don't see anything wrong
with having a mil dot method that works on the targets your shooting or
teaching others to shoot. It's just that the time to do it is so long.
I guess you'll just have to figure it out and present them the time and
let them do their best method that works for them.
//////
Note I sent this off line to Torsten... but thought I should send
it to all who are intersted so nothing isn't misunderstood. Something to
get you through the 4th with a laugh.
B. Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 13:49:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
What is this I hear about the Corps going to a Leupold? I thought that
the Unertl thing was part of their blood? What scope are they going to
use? Where will the old Unertls go when they are rotated out? Any Marines
out there with the inside story to share?
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, id, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 15:26:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.28.210.190)
Hi Guys,
The National Tower is down, the media's gone, and a very tired Danny is back home without incident.
I need some opinions, I'm planning on buying another .308, I want an out of the box number that I don't have to spend a fortune on rebarreling etc. to make it shoot tight groups.
Whats your opinons on the better gun Remington 700VS or Winchester Stealth? I'm sure some of you are familiar with both.
Happy 4th of July!
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville , Pa, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 15:28:11 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.41.35.85)
Lets all be happy for our independence day. Lets fight to keep anymore
of the rights won on the battle field from being taken away from us in
the halls of congress.
On the Unertal Scopes. US Optics has the deal to make scopes for the Marines DM Rifles. They are not Unertals at this point. The Marines still have Unertals. What will happen to Unertal is up in the air. I hope a company/US Optics is able to take them over. US Optics has made great strides in recent times to make great products.
On movers try and wait until they stop.LOL I prefer to track them. I screw the lead thing up more often.
I am starting to map out some future class dates. James Jarrett and I are getting together on this. We will post when it is set. One word though, because of recent events all cash for lodging and food will be paid in advance.
Anyonre see this months article on Molly in Tactical Shooter? I still think Molly should not be used in a sniper rifle. I can not see cleaning a rifle and then shooting five rounds so your CBS will be the same as before. I wonder if every time you go shooting and you put an extra five rounds through it, you are not wearing the bbl out that much sooner, with all the extra rounds that will be fired. Seems like you are losing that so called advantage of getting more rounds through a bbl because of the Molly being slicker. Think about it you go to the range and shoot twenty rounds, clean it and fire five more, or 25% more every time you go. Unless you get 25% more life from the bbl with Molly you lose, plus the ammo cost also goes up. Molly cost more and you are shooting more. Just a thought. Any rifle builders have anything to add or subtract?
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 15:40:57 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.83.143)
Undude, while not a smith, or a ballistician, it is not rocket science
to figure out your theory on Moly.
I agree w/ you 100%, the bullets passing through the bore, Never has and never will wear out a barrel.( at least from sidewall contact).
What does, is the amount of POWDER ignited each round.( which you have to increase to get same vel's w/ Moly).
My contention on Moly, having been there and done that, is it's a pain.
If you do the process correctly, you have to shoot (usually) 5-10 rounds, to re-settle your zero.This in itself is a waste of money, and valuable barrel wear.(THROAT EROSION).
Those that shoot moly, and do NOT clean thorougly after each outing, are asking for trouble, and premature death of their bores.
I had a long discussion w/ a person at a very well known barrel mfgr.
Seems people were sending their barrels back, claiming defect's,
problems w/ accuracy etc.
After examination, what was happening was a lack of cleaning, leading to a build up of Moly in the throat area.In effect, the build up was "constricting", the bore, and therefore damaging the bullet(deforming it)before it ever got to the rifling.
Another potential problem has been discussed, and discovered also, Moly when left in a bore is prone to absorb moisture, this has led to rusting/pitting of "stainless", barrels.Heretofore unheard of.
Mike's point is same as mine, who needs this kind of "POTENTIAL", headache?.
I shot Moly extensively in .308's, and always , had a copper fouled barrel, underneath the moly.Those that do so , and don't have this same occurence are either doing something entirely different than the rest of us, or are just adding layers of Moly on top of layers of copper.
Without even being aware of it.......sorry for the long post, just a lot of opinion.......have a great "INDEPENDENCE DAY", and remember those that gave their all for "ALL", of us.
Like Undude, let's not lose any more ground.............fwiw...tshoes
(Terry).
TSHOES <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 16:14:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.199.42)
Mike,
I was kinda confused (not suprising huh?)on the article too. Just
the transition to the 175 Match Kings should have gave them a VAST improvement
on basically everything needed.
ANY kinda stuff in the barrel is BAAAD Ju-Ju. Moly, PFTE (teflon
for us Yanks), Miracle powders, whatever. Lets not start that thread again...................
Danny,
How come I Couldn't hear the Boom on my side of the bridge?? ;-)
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 16:38:59 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.196.51)
I am interested in some input for a load for a savage 110fp 30'06.
I shoot 165-180 grain bullets.
mark <ressler@wizzards.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 19:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.40.67.23)
TSHOES and barrel wear:
Which leads us to a valid reason we might not want to rush and cut
our barrels to 20": those of us who are both basicaly cheapskates and have
lathes can shorten and rechamber a 26" tube once or twice before we reach
20"...thats up to 15,000 accurate rounds out of Remington's $30 barrel...well,
at least once in the case of the PSS, owing to its contour. I suppose thats
a reason to go with a full bull 'contour". :)
-Tom
But by then the shank diamter will be about right to make a 16.5"
small-ring Mauser barrel...20,000....25,000... :)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, in the no-longer (officialy) Confederate flagged state
of SC, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 20:24:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.31.204.125)
Movers - More fun than a barrel of monkeys! Tracking, Trapping/Ambush
or combination. Actually I like the combination method myself. Tracking
can be a pain in certain conditions and ambushing won't work when the target
is moving in an erratic manner. The reason for hits then misses is that
many shooters forget to take wind into consideration. Example, what if
the lesd is 1.5 mils and the wind is blowing in the direction of the mover
at 2 mils. Dam that sucks. Takes twoo tango in those circumstances. Many
times the shooter will not have the ability to time his mover due to short
duration exposures. The shooter then has to use set base leads. The easiest
to remember is the runner, 100 = 6 inches form LEADING edge. (NEVER base
from middle of the target or you will look at the target and miss to the
rear.) 200 = 1 foot, 300 = 2 feet, 400 = 3 feet, 500 = 4 feet, 600 = 5
feet, 700 = 6 feet. This does not take wind into consideration. Wind rules
are that when the mover travels with the wind subtract the wind values,
against the wind sub add the wind values. Thus the example above would
me a negative .5 mil hold from the leading edge. Walkers are half the above
value. These are start point values only and you must test YOUR reaction
on the range with movers. How? At a KD range with 9 inch targets nailed
to 10 foot 2 bys held by pit pigs. Find your distances. For me a fast walker
at 200 and 300 meters is a 1 mil lead. Runners at 2 mils and patrol walkers
are a .5 mil. Sprinters are 3 mils. Practice and know your personal lead
so that wihtin a few steps you know the lead required, your observer has
given a wind call and you have tracked to infornt of the target. Then shoot
the sucker. Happens within a few steps with practice.
Have fun guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayettteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 22:11:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.183)
On the movers thing. It pays to practice both methods, tracking and
ambush. When up close your field of view is limited and a mover will appear
and disappear in the scope pretty quick so you may have to track which
is okay up close. Out further the ambush is cool because you have a little
longer to fidget around once the target enters your field of view.
Now dont go and say that a variable power scope will fix this because what happens to a variable power scopes mil scale (American made)? I'll leave that question open ended..
Out here and headed for another beer.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 22:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.142)
Who can tell me anything about TBA's M40A1? What kind of quality do
they produce? What's their customer service like? I've sent them two e-mails
recently and haven't received a response yet. Some of you have remarked
that they take f o r e v e r to deliver. Is it worth it? What's the story
here?
kwh <kwhendrix@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 23:20:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.77.119.7)
Tom, I haven't had anything to drink today,or for that matter several
years.
But if you would be so kind, please explain what your post had to
do with mine?
I know there's more here than meets the eye, I just am too stupid
to figure it out..............tshoes( Now somewhere in Kansas w/ Dorothy,
Todo died.)
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 03:50:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.197)
A thanks to George Gardner,
I just got back from my first range day with my new GA Precision
rifle...Fit and finish is second to none and the rifle shoots like a dream...Anyone
considering purchasing a new rifle should give George and call first...You
can see some of his work at www.dennysguns.com go to the precision rifle
link...MG
MG <mg6680@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 06:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.15.153.60)
Mike and James: class scheduling suggestion. Let's think Sniper 2,
sniper FTX, and CQB all in one 2 week block to provide "driving relief"
for some debticated students ;-) Besides, it was "odd" to think about being
in this office again while out there, maybe with 2 full weeks it would
seem like I was doing what I really WANT to instead of what I HAVE to for
a living.
Moly and leading, well, there are 2 things that I can't add to. I shoot 'em naked (the bullets, not the walkers), because it's good enough for me, and I don't see any REASON to go to moly. Except for lube, which I will advocate for a pistol or rifle in a heartbeat. Great stuff! My mix is 50% (v/v) non-lithium based high temp grease and 50% high grade moly (powder). Sticks good where you put it, and no, I don't use ANY oil on the M-25. Just that grease mixture.
Basements almost done, might get to shoot some time soon. Hopefully.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, July
05, 2000 at 18:13:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
I have a Savage 110FP (300WM) that is teaching me a lot right now.
One if the things I'm trying to do is get the trigger adjusted to my liking.
It's clean, but _very_ heavy at this point. I tried the adjustments in
the "adjusting savage triggers" article and didn't feel like I could get
it both comfortable and safe. So, I'm considering replacing the trigger.
I see two options. The Sharpe and the Timney. I've seen talk about the
Sharpe on the site, but not the Timney. Has anybody out there used either
(or both)? what are the relative merits of each?
To look at each of them, the Sharpe is a complete redesign of the sear mechanism, while the Timney is essentially the same idea as the factory trigger, presumably with better finish and adjustment capabilities. Any thoughts on which route would be better?
TIA,
Rich
Rich <richf@usa.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 19:55:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
199.179.167.124)
I hope this is the correct venue to discuss this. I may be getting
a Remington 700 ADL soon, and was wanting to know what are the best things
I can do to make it more accurate. I'm considering sending the barrel for
a cryo treatment. I'm sure the trigger would have to be worked on. But,
is there anything else I would want to do?
I plan on custom making a stock or just going with a Choate 'Ultimate Sniper' stock.
I hope you can help.
Thanks!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 20:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
TSHOES and my post:
Um, now that look back at it, my post dosnt have all that much to do with yours. I suppose that it just inspired me somehow to have a *flash* of creative thought. :)
-Tom
was sober but a bit sleepy at the time
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 21:04:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 129.252.167.152)
Orion the best thing you can do to that 700 ADL if you aint got it
yet is to turn it into a 700VS. You will end up pouring a lot of money
into the ADL if you want to turn it into a "sniper" rifle. If you are hell
bent for this approach save your money and get an HS Precision stock of
some sort, then put a heavy barrel on it, then slap yourself for not getting
the VS in the first place.
I know I sound like a smart ass but in the end you'll have less spare parts laying around and more money for ammo.
Out here
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 04:17:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.158)
Bravo:
Your suggestion for a 2-week course is what we had originally planned for the last Long Range Tactical Rifle course which you attended. The second week was to have been a Special Operations Tactics and Techniques Course. There were some very heavy instructors laid on right out of SOTIC and former SOG guys. We had no takers. Most folks cannot afford the time, money or physical abuse from 2 solid weeks of training unless they are in peak physical condition. Trust me, I have my SEAL team guys draggin' after 10 days. I'd love to run 2-week courses, but the market just isn't there.
Mike and I will be running an Advanced Sniper and a CQB course possibly in September for 5 days. Guys can take either course or both depending on what they want to do. We'll probably throw in a 2-day tactical topo map reading and encryption course at the end.
De Oppresso Liber,
James
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:00:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.14.193.169)
James,
I would tend to agree with you regarding the difficulty of attending a two week course. I had a fantastic time for the week that we were out at the ASA facility, but I had to schedule it w a y in advance. The demands of a wife, kids and a career make it challenging to drop out of sight for more than a week.
You and Mike were VERY gentle on us, and I suspect that even the little crawling and fast walking that we did do wore some of us out!
It has been a month since we were there, but I certainly do think about the great time I had and the things that I learned on a daily basis!
As soon as you and Mike get the schedule worked out for the next class please let us know so we can start working on the domestic issues early!
I know that you and Mike get a lot of good press here on the roster, but it is truly well deserved!
Thanks again for all that you, Mike, RB, Bob, and LT did for all of us!
Michael Sheehan <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Ho, CCCP, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:22:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
Mike & James - Build it and They will come...
-but could you arrange something a little closer to the Canadian
border like Wa. or Montana. I'd second Bravo's comments about the one fail
swoop idea - I know it might be too much to pack in, but then I might some
of my countrymen to actualy agree that even with your outrageous dollar
it could be worth it.
I'd love to go to something that doesn't require a drive across
half hell's acre (Storm), them blasted Easterns. Besides then I could put
off Storm for another year (always better to procrastinate embarassment)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.132.118)
Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@obtnet.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:44:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 4.20.172.64)
Don't cryo a barrel. Bad news. Freezing a barrel will in no way relieve
stress. The best thing that you can do with an average hunting rifle to
improve accuracy is a good bedding job. If this is a new rifle, get some
kind of polish like Flitz or Mothers and polish out the bore using a patch
with polish on it. It works marginally with a used barrel. This will never
be a bench gun, but you can definitely improve accuracy.
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 15:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
167.234.101.8)
Orion..... listen to mistah gooch! He knows exactly what he's talking
about. Buying an ADL and then converting it to a sniper rifle is
like
starting off with a plain-jane 6cyl. Camaro and trying to build
a
high-performance automobile rather than getting a Z28 to begin with.
Too many wasted parts, too much wasted money, extra wasted effort.
For my two cents worth, start with the PSS. If for any reason you
can't get the PSS, go with the VS (probably a better buy). Slight
difference in the stocks. You can build a great sniper rifle out
of
either one.
Have Fun, Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 16:24:06 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.68.14)
Does anybody know, or know where to find, the specs on the new M40A3
rifle? I am looking for details. Manufacturers of parts and pieces like
scope rings, mounts, slings and swivels, floorplates, recoil lug, etc.........
That is what I would like to find. Any info??
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 17:27:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
167.234.100.149)
For the Unertl guru's....Bought a Win. Model 70 in 243 and there is
a Unertl 12x scope on it. The serial # is 50842. How much is it worth and
where can I find info on it? Thanks,
SGT Adam G. Scott
U.S. Army
Adam Scott <igjoscott@netscape.net>
Severn, Md, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 17:30:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.16.12.235)
Thanks for your input guys! This is my story. The reason why I was
considering the ADL is because I would be able to buy it privately. However,
I DO see your point, and perhaps the ADL would be more headaches than I
would care to tackle. Perhaps I'll just save up a little more money for
either the VS or PSS.
However, another question arises. I recently was turned on to the Steyr ProHunter as a possibility in either .243 or 25-06. Apparently, the barrel is cold hammer forged and made to where it heates up evenly. Some say they are very accurate right out of the box. Plus, if the mood should strike you, there is an extended magazine kit that will turn your 4 rnd into a 10 rnd.
Their web site is: http://www.gsifirearms.com
Any comments on that?
Again, thanks!!!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 17:42:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Oops! Forgot to ask.
What is the favorite (of this website) in terms of semi-auto sniper setups? Preferably a setup that won't break the bank of a modestly paid guy. :)
Thanks!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 17:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
James: point well taken. Guess I didn't think about my "limitations".
How about this, I'll show for one week this year, probably for two next
year, spaced a bit ;-) If we're looking for August, I'll get a few more
kegs cranked out.
Really guys, James was reeking havoc in bad places about the time I was being BORN. For me to say that I could keep up with him would be wishful thinking on my part, and the truth would quickly be dispelled from several quarters. I've watched snakes move slower than James bellycrawling. This is PART of the reason I always refer to him as "the real deal"!
And Michael was right, you guys were pretty easy on us. Thankfully.
Kevin: c'mon out. We need your cash. And bring some of that "world famous" Canadian Beaver brew. Heck, I'll trade you for it ;-)
Chase: cryo does nothing? Look up "marstinetic" and "austinetic" phases of steel, and see where the phase change occurs. Could be you're right, but my Kreiger was double cryoed (it helps big time in the machining process to be cryo'ed before hand) as they leave Kreiger, they're ALL single cryoed before they leave. Kreiger is another good source of info for non-engineers (or chemists). If you ask, they'll give you their materials engineer reference. Good stuff. For a $35 barrel, dunno if it would help though. BTW, I agree completely with the bedding comment.
Orion: aw, c'mon now. You mean you've not heard me sing the praises
of the M-25? Everyone else here has heard it enough to sing it (grudgingly
in some cases) with me. Don't take my word for it, ask some of the ASA
guys. The suckers SHOOT! And whatever I did (again) it wouldn't be to get
any 25-06. My Shillen was burned out so quick, well, I won't go into it.
Let's just say that I wouldn't own another 25-06. But if you buy one, you
know where to get the barely used dies cheap!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, July
06, 2000 at 18:15:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Bravo, I'm very new to this forum, so I can say that I have NOT heard
you speak of the M-25. So, please tell me about it, and if there is a web
page on them, that would be good too.
So, you don't like the 25-06 I take it then? Since this is an important
discussion, what calibers are the mainstay of those of you on this site?
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 19:28:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Bravo,
Right on with the 25-06, nice hunting rifle if you shoot it a few
times a year but if you shoot like most of us they don't last long. I had
a custom one with a Lilja barrel and I shot it out in less than a year
and a half and when I sent it back to the smith to have it "Set Back" he
laughed at me and said, maybe if I was interested in making a pistol!!
Mine was burned for about 5" down the barrel but it still shot well enough
for a hunting rifle (If your into that kindof accuracy).
Orion,
If you get the ADL cheap enough you can have a custom barrel and
action work done for around $500 and then pick up a PSS or VS stock off
the eporium for $100 to $150 and have it bedded and then your into a nice
rifle for not to bad of a price. I have bought ADLS for around $220 to
$250. Just a thought.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 19:30:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Orion, before you open up that barrel of worms, you might want to check
out the archives first. You'll have everyone from timbuktu putting everyone
elses caliber down. But anyway, seems most of like the .308........Here
it comes....
SGT Scott <igjoscott@netscape.net>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 19:34:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.16.157.187)
Anybody got an estimate on re-stocking a model 70? Would like to get
rid of the wooden one and replace with a composite. It's heavy enuff with
the Unertl and heavy barrel. Thanks.....
SGT Scott <igjoscott@netscape.net>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 19:43:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.16.157.187)
I've not heard of a bullet burning out a barrel. Does the .243 do the
same thing? I have to say that as far as being a 'flat shooter', the .243
is right up there with those .220, .22-250 and such. I'd prefer to go with
the smaller rounds, rather than the .308 so I don't end up with bruised
shoulders from recoil. :)
So, did anyone have an opinion on the Steyr ProHunter?
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 20:33:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Pat, the guy who is selling the ADL wants $425 for it. He has a Tasco
6-24X40 scope on it. So, with the cost of the stuff you suggested, that
would put the price of it to around $1,000 + and I can get a much better
setup for that much.
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 21:01:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Moving Targets
Torsten: The most practical sight is a regular german sniperscope with a nr.1 or nr.3 reticle. The scope should be set at battleposition:300-350m. On a "walking" target at 90 deg. just put the tip on sidebar on the target, follow it, and pull the trigger. This works well with regular 147gr 7.62 NATO ammo at 2750fps. (Forget slow 168gr ammo.) If there are a lot of runners around a nr.xA reticle might be better.
Accuracy on moving targets is quite different than regular accuracy. Figure this: An olympic moving target champ shooting more than 30000 rounds a year usually shoot 2-3moa groups on moving targets under perfectly controlled conditions. This is with a competitionrig at 100m chambered for 222rem with 50gr/3200fps and 20X scope. He also have an exact amingpoint. I've never seen a shooter who has not trained on moving targets shoot less than 8 moa centered groups.(10 shot string = two 5 shot groups, left and right mover)
The most important factor for moving target accuracy on unknown targets
are:
-Highest possible MV for shortest TOF.
-Fast locktime.
-Low recoil.
-KISS scope/reticle.
A sniperrifle chambered for .223rem will outshoot any largecaliber rifle with standard rounds at practical ranges. Without doubt the new swedish sniperround, 7.62NATO APDS, is the best military round for moving targets. Nothing else comes close.
TorF
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 22:25:42 (ZULU) (your
host address: 193.212.93.33)
Orion: If you're new enough to not heard my ravings, welcome aboard.
Now c'mon, let's sing together. Guess what semi-auto sniper rifle is the
best, doo dah, doo dah. It's the M-25 doo dah, doo dah. Really, if you
wanna check out some stuff on it, I found a write up on it at http://www.snipercentral.com/m25.htm
Not the best write up I've seen, but will do for basics. Weight is subjective.
Mine full up is at 15 pounds via the bathroom scales (so between 10 and
20 pounds). I'm currently using the Leupold Mark 4 M3, and I'm not sure
that moving from the Mark 4 M1 was a good idea. But I did it anyway. Sometimes
it's called the XM25. Basically, take a M-14, do some SUPER accurizing
and trigger work to it, and scope it well. Mounts are either ARMS #18 or
Brookfield Precision Tool. Your call. Same with scopes between the Leupolds
and the B&L out-of-production. The "company line" is that it's guarenteed
for 1 MOA. Mine has done (and yes, one of the times it was witnessed by
a SC regular) 1/3 MOA on the occasions the nut behind the butt doesn't
fault. WAY sub-MOA as the rule. Last group I shot (literally) was a 5 rounder
at 600. 2"X4" well centered, in mild wind. No bench. Haven't needed to
re-zero mine since it had about 100 rounds down it or so. That's included
belly crawling with it, bumps in 1000 miles of transit time, etc. I will
admit that for a serious sniper, a bolt gun would probably be the rule,
but for me and my status as a "wannabe spotter" :-), it's IDEAL.
And listen to Pat, he's done that 25-06 thing too. Not just me. I'm die hard 7.62mm NATO (even in the next Garand), but thanks to some of these guys - and you know who you are, I'm working HARD at NOT getting a 6.5X308 (260 Rem). That'd be the only other caliber I'd play with (except the poodle shooter of course). I've not played extensively with the 243, but I would assume from it's over bore capacity that it'd be a real barrel burner too.
C Baker: we've got something called "the emporium" might wanna check
it out.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 07,
2000 at 00:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.140)
Interesting stuff on movers. Torf I once used a 220 swift on song dogs
out here in Colo. and tend to agree that the faster bullet was easier to
shoot runners with.
But just when you thought it was safe. When I was kid I used to
wander around the cotton fields in SW OKLA. With a Marlin .22 lever gun
and throw up cotton boles. (Fer you Yanks thats a little green thing about
the size of a large marble, Kind of a pod.)IT was much easier to hit thrown
that way with the .22 short than the .22 long rifle. I could never figure
it out why? I noticed that running cotton tail rabbits were easier with
the short. Maybe I was just used to it but I really don't think that was
it cause I wanted to use the LR and could never do as well with it.
Orion; that's too high for the ADL. NEW ones are $369 at Wally with
a plastic stock that works pretty good. The gun should bring about what
Pat said.
That pro-hunter is a nice gun shoots my Sniper grade Ammo about
1.5 m.o.a. in .308. Nice to carry and shoot. There's something I can't
quite recall about the safety going on automatically or something I didn't
like.... but that barrel pressed in business would turn me off unless you
are a casual hunter. I've used the SSG II (hope my memory is right anyway
the Sniper .308 model anyway the green stocked med heavy bbl.) as a hunting
rifle. It's OK but not worth the weight in a Hunting role I used it in.
(snow high mountains).
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 00:11:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Need Advise. I am trying to decide on the stock for a new rifle I am
having built. I am torn between the AI AICS system II and the McMillan
M4. The stock needs to be compatible with numerous shooting positions,
but prone compatibility is most crucial. At the moment I am leaning towards
the AI AICS II stock, but is there some reason that this would be a poor
choice? It seems that the A4 has become the new tactical rifle stock of
choice, and I am sure there is good reason for this.
So the question is:
AI AICS system II Vs. McMillan A4.
Thanks in advance.
Awx <awx01@hotmail.com>
Comox, British Columbia, Canada - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 00:29:39
(ZULU) (your host address: 24.65.9.152)
Orion' the 25zip6 will burn barrels but it's a grand hunting caliber'.
If I had one rifle only. (to hell with barrels). .243 is a little light
for plains game like Mule Deer, Elk, Antelope (long range).
New Shooting Game been invented out here simple but instructive;
You get a refrigerator box (They are taller than the sage in most places)
They fold up to carry and then fold out square again. Drive the tabs down
with a tent stake if it's windy. Paint or fasten target of choice on the
4 sides and stake it in the middle of a section of grass or desert. Each
guy gets to drive the next shooter to where he wants him to shoot. Shooter
then has to determine the distance and take 1 shot. Shooter goes to another
side (direction from the box where he can see an unused target) and chooses
the range for the next guy and so on. A missed target puts you out of the
game. Only hits count. Suggested target sillouete man or 1 foot bullseye,
what ever turns your crank. Hint... take gator aide if temp is 109 like
the 4th was... Or you can just see who drops first as a side bet.
We like to have everyone mill the target and argue about how far
it is to influence the shooter into missing.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 00:39:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
I'm looking for reloading data for 30-06 using moly-b. I don't seem
to be able to find any loading data other than data for uncoated bullets.
Please help if anyone out there can.
Gunny Smith <gunnysmith@earthlink.net>
St. Charles, mo., USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 01:17:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 168.191.164.81)
PX update and SC administrative stuff!
Just wanted to let you guys and gals know, I finally got all the images posted for the IOR line of scope mounting systems. Check 'em out! Marius also posted the images of the binos - all of them. Finally, IOR just came out with a spotting scope that is just short of amazing. It is not posted yet but we hope to review it shortly.
PS: For those of you who have been pounding me about it, the SC T-shirt will be BACK IN BLACK. Not yet, but upon my next order the color will be BLACK. Satisfied???
Other good news in terms of review material! SWFA has kindly agreed to loan the staff several telescopic sights over the next few months. The first review to come from this will be the Kahles ZF95 in 6x42. I would like some imput from those of you in LE on what you would like to see reviewed in the next several months. If you are considering Swarovski's, Kahles, Stiener, S&B or other European optics, please let me know as it now looks like I will be able to reveiw maybe one a month if all goes well. I'd rather consentrate on the glass you guys will actually be considering for duty use or as an upgrade. Your input is welcome.
Later gang! Have a great weekend!
Scott
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 01:38:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.71.86.7)
70PSS vs. 700ADL "roll 'yer own":
At this juncture, I ma not sure which way to point you. Its all a matter of where you want to go with the rifle ultimatly, I suppose. It would be a much easier decision to make if Remington had that great a track record of shipping PSSs that are up to spec, ie, a reliable 3/4 MOA gun out of the box. My trials in getting that level of performance out of my 700 PSS are well documented in the archives (first half of '99). The short version: it was a 2 1/4 MOA gun out of the box, with a grossy defective crown and bedding job. It took a $110 dollar set of crown cutting tools and a bedding job to fix, all *after* wasting my time shipping it to the factory and them refusing to do anything to it. I managed to do the work myself but to hire a gunsmith to fix that stuff would have cost what? $150 or more? And from what I understand this has been an entirely too common situation in the last couple of years. At that rate plus the $700 the PSS cost to begin with, I could have almost bought the ADL, gotten in a basic HS or McMillan stock and had a name-brand barrel custom fitted and a basic glass job. It was my original intention to do just this but for once I wanted a rifle I didnt have to screw with. Heh.
Now my PSS shoots a very reliable and stable .6 MOA and is confirmed a solid sub-MOA shooter to 500 yards. That will do. I suppose you can reasonably gamble on a 700PSS if you care to 'cause most of them seem to deliver the nominal .75 MOA or better but I'm not sure if I'd care to again. Another question is, how far do you intend to build the gun? If you think you are going to go full-house and end up with a near-Chandler-spec rifle anyway, why spend the extra money on the PSS? To fill up the used parts bin with more expensive junk than you would have taken off the ADL? I dunnow...
Split the difference and get a VS? Perhaps the most sensible option of all. They seem to have been better executed of late anyway.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, in the seasonably warm state of SC, USA - Friday, July
07, 2000 at 02:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)
Okay okay. Give me the lowdown on what I really REALLY need to get,
and the caliber of choice, and all the "fixin's" to make a nice setup.
I DID go to the Remington site and looked at the VS. Very nice, especially
the stainless steel, fluted one. Of course, if I had the money, I would
go with one of those composite barrel jobs (that will run the cost another
1K).
So, bottom line is, if I want increadible accuracy, I'm going to be putting in a 'small fortune' then. Correct?
I really appreciate all the advise. I know that you all are the ones
with this knoweledge. :)
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 03:55:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Orion, follow these steps:
1) Mail $1600 & an FFL to TBA. Ask for M40A1 clone.
2) Take up knitting for 18 months.
3) Enjoy!!
Some of you may guess who I am. Good for you.
Patient customer <patientcustomer@patientcustomer.com>
patientcustomer, patientcustomer, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at
04:31:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.8.77)
Im just starting long range shooting, and bought a 700 PSS .308 26".
I was wondering what brand or kind of scope base and rings are used
for this riffle.
Thanks for the advice.
Matt M <smohabbat@earthlink.net>
St. Louis, MO, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 04:48:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.217.62.60)
Orion, I tried to give you the heads up. There are several peeps here
who are the experts. First, what are you wanting the application for, and
second how often and how much do you plan on shooting? A heavy barrell
will dissipate heat better hence less "bullet walk". The .243/.270 is a
fine round for "normal" hunting and then the magnums start to hurt.The
better reason for the weapon and the better the results for an answer.
Trying to help...
SGT Scott <igjoscott@netscape.net>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 05:05:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.16.13.194)
Orion, Here is the magic formula.
Option 1. Contact Ken Hunter as he is selling a PSS.
Option 2.
a. Purchase M700VS in .308. No fluting. Looks good but not needed.
I've heard that the VS is actually turning out better accuracy figures
than the PSS.
b. Badger Ordnance rings and tapered base. This is a mandatory step.
Anything else will leave you wanting later.
c. Leupold M3LR scope or another Leupold/Premier reticle scope that
fits your budget.
THis formula will get you a SOLID basic package to learn with. As you get more experienced you can modify it as desired. In effect you will have a version of the US Army M24.
You wanna know why this is the magic formula dive into the archives.
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 06:56:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.169)
Do you have any information on how to adjust the trigger on a Winchester
Model 70 classic stainless rifle.
Thanks
Jon Cole <jcole@osl.com.au>
Sydney, NSW, Australia - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 07:44:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 203.108.52.254)
i was wondering if anyone knows the diffrence between the savage 110
and the 110taciclea(please forgive my bad spelling:P if someone would email
ime id love it, as i was wondering if they jsut had a diffrent stock than
the normal hunting version
chris <smp@dazedandconfused.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 07:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.36.17.156)
Orion,
in my opinion the best semi-auto sniper rifle is the Springfield
M25.
I have one of the only three imported in Italy,Brookfield custom
parts + mount,Heavy stainless steel Krieger barrel and one U.S.Optics SN-3
1.8-10x44 mil-dot scope.
Lastly,with it, I won the 3rd place in a sniper match (192/200)
shooting at 300 meters,and in another match I won the Ist place (144/150).
Always better than the SR25 guys.
My M25 shoots 1 MOA at 300 meters.
I strongly reccomend it.
I do not its price in the States but here is not exactly a cheap
hardware.
Ciao
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 11:47:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.36.219)
Ooopss,
just to correct my previous post,it shoots 1/3 MOA at 300 meters.
Thanks.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 11:50:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.36.219)
Orion,
Listen to what Gooch said, if your worried about recoil go with
a 260 in the VLS. It has the recoil of a 243 and shoots great but you have
to reload for it. This is the down side on this caliber for a lot of new
shooteres. I have wore out two VSs in 308s and they both were CONSISTANT
.6 rifles and would shoot a lot of groups way under that. You can pick
one up for around $500 most anywhere if you look around. You need to decide
how and what type of shooting "YOU" will be doing and get the gun and caliber
to match up to it. You may be better off with a 243 if you will do more
hunting than target shooting, only you can answer those questions and then
decide.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 12:04:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
I'm not a hunter at this time. This is what I am interested in, or
rather, why I am wanting a long range 'tack driver'. I am making a collection
of different ranges of firearms. I have a handgun for close shots, a 9mm
carbine for 25-50 yards, an AK variant that will do well to around 100
yards, and I am now wanting to fill the long range area. I will only be
happy with something that shoots sub MOA and I prefer semi-auto, but realistically
(cost wise) will stick with a bolt action. How much do I shoot? I basically
go out to the range about once a month or so. Sometimes longer.
Along with this, should a time ever arise where I feel it necessary to use the rifle in a hunting situation, I want to be able to take the animal with as much speed as possible, in order to limit it's trauma. And in the unfortunate (and probably unlikely) event of a conflict on our soil, I want to be able to take long enough shots so my location is away from the immediate area of fire. I suppose that is what "sniping" is about, although I don't call myself that at all. But to me, the tactic seems sound, if survival is your top priority. Of course, I'm new to all this, and may not know what I'm talking about! :)
Thanks, I hope this helps you consult me.
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 13:46:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
I threw out the cryo topic and would like some feedback. I am a full
time engineer, I graduated a year ago, so I don't have a world of experience,
but I know enough to be confused. All the cryo companies claim a reduction
in stress from freezing the barrel. I agree that this changes the properties
and that it affects the formation of the martensite and austenite in the
steel, but this will not relieve stresses. In order to relieve stress,
the barrel would have to be heated and then cooled. The problem there is
that in order to eliminate stress, the entire piece of metal has to be
cooled at the same rate, inside and out. This is impossible. The outside
surfaces will cool faster than the internat metal. On top of thaat, it
will soften the metal, so it just won't work. That is why they decided
to freeze it instead. It wouldn't soften the metal and they hoped that
if they froze the barrel and the heated it back up slowly enough, that
it would relieve the stress. The probelm again is the inconsistent temperatures
between the surface and the center. I don't have my metalurgical properties
book in fromt of me, and since I haven't used it much since school, I can't
give the exact details. but will everything, there may be some magical
thing that happens that I don't understand. There is an article in Precision
Shooting where they did a test on five or six factory rifles. They shot
their groups then sent the barrels off to have them frozen, then shot some
more groups. There was basically no difference. The savage is the only
one that improved in accuracy after the freeze. Their theory is that having
a quality gunsmith remove the barrel and then put it back on makes more
of a difference than the freezing. Especially in factory rifles. I am open
to new ideas, and I sure don't want to step on any toes because I love
all you guys, but I though I'd throw out what I heard and see if there
is any other opinions of points that I am missing. What do you all think???
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 14:40:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
167.234.101.51)
prmayne@ala.net,
Your Savage bolt rifle should have it's action screws torqued to 25 inch/pounds (be carfull, that's INCH/pounds), according to the technical-assistance folks at Savage. I just checked with them about mine. The new ones have pillar bedding, but I think 25 is the place to start, anyway. The traditional rule of thumb regarding free-floating is to free-float heavy barrels, but allow gentle upward pressure at the front of the forend with lightweight barrels. This seems to have something to do with vibration harmonics. Of course, if you shoot quickly enough to heat up a sporter-weight barrel, it may really squirm around (regardless of bedding). But that's not what they're for, anyway. Regardless, torque it and shoot it. It may not need anything else.
Good luck.
SFC(R) North <kettlebelly@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, Mo, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 14:47:33 (ZULU)
(your host address: 134.32.107.226)
Bravo & guys: I hope no one took my comments on the inadviseability
of attending 2-week courses due to the extreme physical rigors personally.
It is just the way it is. When we were young, we could (with proper motivation,
discipline, and training) withstand lots of physical abuse. Not all abuse
is "good for you." I went through Special Forces schools where I lost over
20 pounds and that from a frame that had about 9%fat going in. It took
upwards of 3 months to recover. Nowadays, most folks have desk jobs and
just don't get the opportunity to train. The Calvin Klein gym rat look
does not mean shit in the field. Those guys look great in their carefully
torn tank tops and their great bulging muscles. But, get them in the field
and they fall apart as quickly as some of the guys packing more weight.
The guys that did the best as special ops soldiers both in training and
on operations were mostly from rural areas in the south or the intermountain
west. A lifetime of working outdoors all day builds a body that can withstand
the field rigors of military ops in a way that gym workouts never can.
The lads from farms, mining, timber or ranching communities were a whole
lot better than guys raised in urban environments. If you guys were outside
riding and working with colts all day in rough country like I am when I
am not abusing students, you would have no problem with the rigors of the
field. Just didn't want anyone thinking I am special or that they are less
than they should be. Anyone can do this shit. It isn't rocket science.
It just takes discipline (something most
modern "boys" don't have) and the opportunity to train.
Kevin: Fly into Albuquerque and we can pick you up or rent a car so you don't have to drive but about 2.5 hours.
Anyone here care to give an opinion on a guy that doesn't pay his debts? Just curious to see what this bunch of shooters thinks about honor.
De Oppresso Liber,
James
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 15:55:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
James Jarrett: You don't have to be a farm boy or a cow puncher to
be able to make it in the field. Just takes good attitude and not feeling
sorry for yourself. Granted it would be great to be 20 years old again
but we know that isn't going to happen. For us older guys it just takes
a little longer to get from point A to point B. So we leave a little sooner...
and we get there. Some of us city folks have been throught SF courses and
out in the field for months at a time. If you want the course you work
for it whether it's a day or a month.
De Oppresso Liber
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 16:18:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.100)
>> James R. Jarrett wrote "Anyone here care to give an opinion on a
guy that doesn't pay his debts? Just curious to see what this bunch of
shooters thinks about honor."<<
I don't think that Honor and "honoring your debts" are exactly the same thing.
That said, I believe that paying your dues, whether they be monetary or other, is the pre-requisite to credibility.
Honor is about doing the Right thing, even if everyone else is doing otherwise.
I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that, unless
your gonna get a lawyer involved my opinion - everyone has one.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
G.I. Joe: Great to hear I'm not alone! Now another chorus for those
who aren't "indoctrinated" yet ;-)
Chase: I'm not a metalurgist either, but I got one just a few offices
down. Helps to be able to reference others schooling on occasion. He's
not a shooter, but I've specifically asked about barrels when researching
how to have mine done. I'm only half competent to speak on the subject
personally, but I can parrot what a PhD says! As for cooling, CTB's, and
with cryo, you let it "heat up" over a full day 1 deg C per several minutes.
Should keep equilibrium nicely. Stresses should be reduced, if I understand
correctly, due to the corrections in crystal latice.
James: offend me with the truth? I think not! First run in the Corps
was a 5 miler, thought I would barf a lung up. Got to where I could do
it with EASE. Now, I'd barf up a lung AND a spleen. TonyY got it right,
I'll get there, just takes me a little longer. Besides, that's why I was
told to not haphazardly hit halftracks ;-) As for people who don't pay
debts, I think they work for State Farm insurance. The car I took to your
place has been wrecked for almost 2 months (I drove it out there that way)
and the other person's insurance (their fault!) won't "make right". Names
and numbers will be given out to all potential hecklers.
I do not think it is a question of choosing the "right or wrong"
way since the definition of each is extremely relative. You set goals and
you make decisions; some decisions are mode productive towards achieving
your goals than others.
I will speak for myself for I dare not make any form of generalization
about the subject. I came in this world naked and naked I will leave when
my time is up. The only thing that I truly have and dare claim as my own
is my Word. Remaining true to my Word is my definition of honour. Whether
it is a debt or a date; it matters not.
To cite my father who still uses this line : "A Man without a sense
of honour defines a being whose ethical and biological functions serve
no other purpose but to fertilize the ground and whose bodily mass does
nothing more but add to earth's gravity".
I hope you all excuse my philosophical streak but being Greek, I
can not help it. >:)
Just the ramblings of a youngster...
AresP
Mr. Jarrett, in reference to your question, where I come from, and
the way I was taught. If a man doesn't pay his debts, incurred by himself,(
usually requiring a signature).( or just the spoken promise to pay).
He has broken a solemn rule, that is, HE has made himself out to
be a man of NO character.
You, are only as good as your word.
If that sacred trust is violated,then you have lost your integrity.
Don't want to preach here, but Jesus said, in his own words: "Let
your yes, be yes, and your no's, be no's. Anything more is of sin.
He also said, "Owe no man, anything". Sorry, off topic but applicable
to your question.
Like a previous poster, just my .02's worth,and opinion, fwiworth.
Terry( TSHOES)
TERRY(TSHOES) <tls8323@cs.com>
The Rem/Winchester question has been discussed a thousand times,
and comments about the Rem problems have been posted here in the last week
or two, and are constantly talked about... but you need to look at the
Archives for the past two years... there is TONS of discussion on this
stuff, and the reason that Marius maintains the Archives is for this very
reason... also read the "Duty Roster Rules of engagement" just above the
typing box at the top of this page.
Often, when basic questions like this are put on the Roster, they
ARE ANSWERED... but are answered by e-mail, so as not to clutter up the
roster with the "Same ol' same ol'"...... and Winchester is betterer!!
(and I own a bunch of Rems)
Gas guns...
James J...
Cryo barrels...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
thanks
A mans word IS his honor,and no man who posseses honor will dispute
that.
Bruce E. <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
who wants to shoot a popsicle anyway??!!
later
I'm old enough to remember when the shampoo industry was out of ideas
to sell their perfumed junk, and invented the dread plague of "Hair odor"...
God forbid if you were a woman with dreaded "Hair odod"... you were destined
to be a spinster... and, of course, they came up with the solution, a deodorizing
shampoo!
Where has it been documented that there is a problem with any supposed
"barrel stress", and that it needed fixin'?... Nowhere that I know of.
And, if internal stress were a problem, I would think a few hours
in a 800 degree oven would do a lot more to solve it, that a bath in liquid
nitrogen...
The only problem being solved is the college tuition costs of the
folk's kids, who kindly take your money for such foolisness.
As James Trafficant says... "Beam me up, Scotty!"
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I had the oppertunity to shoot one of the Winchester M-70's of which
you speak, the one with the black "canoe paddle stock".
Did the preliminary work during the begining of a driving wind By-Gawd
blizzard and @ 100 yds with Federal .308 168 gr. Match ammo, groups of
under one inch were the norm. I just could not get used to the safety location
and the early 1990's price tag. My quirks, not the rifles!
Get what you wish, mount a VERY good scope in Badgers, and shoot
the piss out of it.
Then buy a Model 700 PS or VS and do the same thing,
Then buy a Savage Tactical and do the same thing,
Then buy a SIG Tactical and do the same thing.......
*:-o
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
James,
Everyone at ASA was so generous and gracious it made an already good
time great!
In this business there is a lot of trust and faith put in the people
that you interact with. There are not many people from the "outside world"
that I would want to have near me when they had loaded weapons in their
hands. There are also not many people outside of the shooting world that
I would trust with $3,500 worth of equipment with the hopes of getting
paid. (And he came through like a champ!!)
Fortunately, everybody that I have had interaction with from this
site has been honorable with the exception of the one "unique individual"
that you were referring to. This is a small community, it is really very
foolish for some people to not live up to their commitments! Please don't
let one jerk turn you off from assisting the rest of us!
Michael
Michael Sheehan <mike1000@pacbell.net>
All right guys, I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest over this
one (especially with a Patron!), but here's what I know in a nutshell about
stresses. First off, you have mechanical, which is what Bruce E was quite
correctly referencing. When you machine a part, you leave machine marks.
Those non-uniform "ridges" create stress risers, that, if not worked over
can blast a piston right through your head or block. Thus, we shot peen
our conn rods and pistons, eliminating the machine marks. Yes, they make
"peaks" of their own, but the pattern is non-regular. This works like a
platoon of troops staggering thier pace when going over a bridge. Stagger
means dry, in step means wet. Now, do we machine our barrels? Yup. The
inside isn't the problem because it's smooth (hopefully), it's the outside.
Thus, the slower the barrel is turned the less stress is in the barrel.
Ruger barrels are notorious for this. Ever hear of heat stringing? You're
not dissipating heat uniformly throughout the barrel due to a stress riser,
thus causing warpage at a point. First shot (or how ever many) perfectly
centered, then the "group" goes linear away from the center. Stress risers
"bending" the barrel. The second is stress on a molecular basis (crystal
latice of steel). If you've got martensite and austenite in the same barrel
(which you will), one will expand at a mildly different rate than the other.
To quote: "During the heat treating process the matrix of the steel transforms
from austenite to martensite. However, the transformation is not 100% complete,
and the non-transformed austenite is unstable and at room temperature retains
stress.", "The cryogenic process makes the steel more homogeneous and stable
by converting much of the retained austenite structure into martensite
and by further stress-releiving the steel". Recommended by a materials
expert at an independent lab.
Now, whether it's worth it in a barrel, fired, unfired, ripped off
a rifle and slapped back on, whatever is outside my area of knowlege. I
won't swear to you that it'll do squat. I can't. What I will swear to you
is that you can get the mechanical stresses out enough to not matter. But
without the cryo treatment (even if it's the old Swedish method from last
century of heating and cooling in cycles), you won't get the stresses out
at the molecular level. Blocky ferrite is a bad thing. Kreiger does it,
it's good science, so I do it. The way I look at it, what's the minor charge
on top of the barrel? Maybe it does no good, but I got the mental placebo.
Or maybe it does work ;-) Either way, I'll guarentee that I'll shot peen
all the conn rods that go in any of my engines that are worthy of good
conn rods to begin with.
Sorry so long, I'll shut up for a while.
No pissin' contest, and I yeld to your "Martensite and Austenite"
discussion points.
But my main point is nobody has shown the Cryo does anything to help
a problem that has not been documented to exist, or cause a problem, in
the first place.
How-some-ever... if it is something that adds to the self confidence
factor (and I fully agree on the value of any "Juju" factor that gives
you "faith") then it's worth it for that alone... but on a $600 barrel,
not on a $35 barrel.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Does anybody know if its winchester or remington that produce and
sell the 4.81mm tungsten carbide 7.62x51 NATO sabot round.
thanks;
On Honor, James I just wrote off the cash. I thank you for your attempts
to regain it for me. Fooled me once, I wont be fooled again. First time
anyone from here has done so. On the other hand I have been treated so
well by the guys from here that I am way ahead and the community at large
is outstanding
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
thanks
Like Patron Mike says, the cut rifling imparts less mechanical stresses,
and therefore is a better barrel. On mine, I paid the extra $40 for the
SECOND cryo, but as pointed out, it's a cut rifled high dollar barrel.
And I wanted "the best" to get my mojo rising. That's what it was good
for with me. And it's the only barrel I had cryoed because it's the only
cut rifled barrel I have. Wouldn't mess with the others.
Mike: let me know about the other topic, I'll help out. Don't wanna
see you taking losses. It's purely selfish though, I gotta keep you doing
the instructor thing ;-)
Use any money that you might save by not letting
Al S.
Winchenster makes the 7.62NATO APDS round. Sweden bought 1 mill.
rounds manufactured with accuracyspec of 1moa or less in their AI AW rifles.
TOF to 1000m is only 1.3sec. MV=1350m/s.
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/winchester/index.html
TorF
We'll split the loss between us. I concur with your assessment of
the guys on this site. They are a great bunch, which is what stunned me
about the behavior of this one individual. Maybe we'll have a chance to
"counsel" him in person out behind a barn someday. Some folks just need
an asswhipping to convince them that standards of conduct can and will
be enforced.
Guys: thanks for all the personal emails and support on this issue.
It is exactly what one expects from honorable men.
Jim Mitchell: We'll disagree on the difference between honoring one's
debts and honor. The honoring of a debt is subsumed within the larger definition
of honor in my opinion. It is a promise unkept which amounts to breaking
your word. A concept that most of us here would agree is fundamental to
the concept of honor.
De Oppresso Liber,
I don't really know nuthin', and I have a civil engineering degree
from Texas A&M to prove it. Anyway, here's my two cents.
The problems with the crystalline structure in barrels is that the
thermal coefficients are not identical for martensite and austenite. This
means that if you have an uneven distribution of the different forms of
iron around the barrel, it may tend to bend in one direction and this bending
may be enough to be noticable in POI. There may also be non-uniform harmonics
in the barrel, which may cause an increase in group size.
Please note the extensive use of 'may' in the above paragraph.
I have not read the articles, but it would be interesting to know
if the groups were all cold bore shots, or if they were rapid fire. Any
benefit of cryo treatment will show up more for rapid fire groups.
In essence, there is no economic advantage to automatically treating
a $35 (I have also heard $8) barrel. After bedding the action to isolate
the barrel from the stock, it may help if the groups are still excessively
large for all bullet/load combinations, or if it still shows signs of thermally
induced stringing. Alternatively, you can just make a tomato stake and
buy a good barrel.
For quality barrels, I would suspect that the main advantage of cryo
treatment is psychological, and combined with the difference in cost between
the treatment and the barrel, may be worthwhile. There should be no difference
in difficulty of cleaning, because the gross defects (>50 microns) will
still be present. There may also be a difference in the ease of break-in
because of the easier machining of the cryo'ed barrel. Personally, I would
reserve the treatment for problem barrels, along with spirit dances, baptism
with moonshine, and the laying on of hands.
YMMV, seek a competant attorney or tax counselor before using this
advice, and the guarantee on anything here lasts until you reach the door.
Karl
The magazines felt sticky on the inside so I took them apart, cleaned
them and siliconed the inside. But this seems an ejection not a feed problem.
Anyone ever had this problem with a rim-fire?
This 22 has exceeded my "fun expectations" and with a red dot on
it, the nimble little gun provides such astonishingly fast acquisition,
I may use it rather than a shotgun for rabbits. Providing, of course, I
can solve the stove pipe malfunctions.
Michael Pregent <mpregen1@san.rr.com>
A few things could be going on in your 597. I am not intimately familiar
with the exact gun, but have had similar problems in other .22s.
The most prevalent (and I hate to say this) cause of stovepipes in
any .22 I have seen is the action spring/bolt getting gunked up. Happens
TONS more with cheap ammo than with good ammo. I found myself abandoning
the bulk packs in favor of Remington Target stuff (just under four bucks/100
at Wally World). The bulk ammo is both less reliable, less accurate, and
dirtier for the most part. This takes some of the economy out of the gun,
but not a wholebunch, it still beats the heck out of centerfire prices.
The Remington Target ammo is pretty darn accurate too, getting moa
out of both a Ruger 10/22T and a scoped Browning buckmark from good rests.
Dan-O
Dan-O <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
I have a factory original Remington VSSF with the HS Precision bedding
block stock. It is the same rifle that is debated on another part of this
site.
My question is: what material can I use to build up a bigger, fuller
palm swell on the stock? I've used Devcon A in the past for foam and epoxy
stock. So I'm considering using it, black die and chopped fibreglass fibres
to make a stiff putty to add the desired mass to the stock. Somewhere else
I read about Marine Tex, but don't know how common this material is.
Any thoughts? Reply off line if you prefer.
Terry
Terry Warner <terry.warner@sympatico.ca>
Jerry
I need to know where I can purchase a set of Badger rings and base
for my new Rem700P. Also can anyone tell me more about the IOR scopes they
offer in S C PX.
I disagree with what you said...
"I know that it would take more testing than this to prove anything
but..."
If two, or even just one, were improved, then I'd say it might have
merit... but if you can't see any improvement in 4 out of 4... then how
many do you have to "Cryo" until you see one improve...6, 10, 20, a hundred,
before you see one improve... So you're wrong... 4 out of 4 failures IS
ENOUGH testing!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Out here
I am no metallurgist, machinist, or gunsmith. Maybe I read too much.
This cryo-ing the barrel thread is interesting. Kevin Thomas of Sierra
Bullets wrote some excellent articles for Precision Shooting on both moly
coating and cryo treatments that showed for first-class quality "Name Brand"
barrels (like those out of the known barrel makers with only ONE grade
of barrel that leaves the shop), neither treatment seemed to make any difference
-- all barrels seemed to hold accuracy until somewhere around 3,500 rounds
whether frozen or not, shooting moly or not. He did hypothesize, though,
that for an off-the-shelf hammer-forged "El cheapo" (read Remington PSS/VS)
or a quality barrel that had a lot of machining done to it (i.e., a blank
turned down with steps for an M14 or M16, as compared to a bolt gun barrel
with minimal external contouring) the cryo treating might help.
As for moly, we don't have it on GI-issued ammo. In my own personal
guns it's all I'll use. Terry, I don't understand how you state moly is
corrosive (it's an inert, non-hygroscopic compound). The pioneering moly-coating
technique from NECO (used by Norma, Sierra, and Hornady) uses technical
moly. Other manufacturers may use a different grade, have it suspended
in a different "carrier" (to spray on), or use carnauba wax or a substitute
which could attract moisture and start the rust/corrosion process. Deer
can't seem to tell the difference.
The "Carbon tunnel" syndrome (carbon permananently burned in/imbedded
into the first 1/2 inch of leade and rifling due to poor barrel quality
or cleaning procedures), combined with poor maintenance cleaning techniques
(not removing copper fouling, and having layered strata of powder fouling,
copper, moly, carbon, copper, etc.) will turn a good to fair factory barrel
or even a first-class tube into a pig in no time. All that garbage layered
on top of an initial layer of copper, combined with any kind of humidity
starts your electrolytic process at the initial barrel-copper contact points,
causing your barrel pitting.
I agree moly lubricating bullets doesn't extend barrel life due to
the heat corrosion of the powder on the impurities of the barrel at the
leade. My gut feeling is that since the bullets will ease into the rifling
easier and have a slightly "slicker" ballistic coefficient in the external
ballistics phase they may fly a hair truer. When the US Air Force started
painting C130s and C141s "Air Superiority Grey" from European Camouflage
(a smooth paint job versus matte cammy colors), the air jockeys found that
some aircraft were performing up to 15% better WITH NO OTHER CHANGES MADE
TO THE AIRCRAFT, due to lesser drag. But bumping a 7.62 charge from 43.3
to 43.5 grains of whatever seems insignificant (any of you math gurus want
to tackle this?).
None of my guns has a frozen tube, but I'm looking at it for my next
M16 barrel (I covet a cut Krieger 1-8).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
AIRBORNE!!!
Patron Dave: you tell 'em! M-16 barrels and M-14 barrels. You mean
there's a third type? ;-) And you're right, technical grade moly isn't
corrosive. If it was, I'd have seen rust pits on the drums I keep it in.
Heavy but not corrosive. That said, I shoot my bullets naked, but more
power to anyone who wants to use it. After all, everyone KNOWS that strawberry
icecream is better than chocolate!
Patron 'Lito: four MAY have been too few, if all four were bull barrels
with no contours. Or all four were of one type of steel. etc, etc.
But since everyone says that cryo is a crock, I'll take it at face
value, and just say that this Kreiger shoots because it was cut. In the
future, I'll only have my cut barrels cryoed ONCE ;-)
I hear this and that about all sorts of FALs and I not always sure
what to belive, but I have come to belive this much for certain: get a
gun built on an Imbel reciever using Austrian parts. Century Armps markets
such a gun for a hell of a lot less than Entreprize or any of the others
that build on US manufactured recievers. Some of those recievers suck and
I can never recall which, but I have an Imbel reciever (an entire Imbel
gun, actualy, in the form of a Springfield SAR-48) and can tell you that
it has been bulletproof. Get a Century Arms gun as above and check the
headspace. If its good out of the box, it will last a good long time without
reheadspacing. Mine hasent moved .001" in 2,000 rounds. I know that Century
used to build crap on Century Mystery Recievers but these appear to be
a whole different animal. Give 'em a look. Thats the route I'd take.
Terry Warner and glop to build up stocks:
I asked the same Q here a few months ago and (suprisingly) got zippo
for feedback. There is a greenish Plastic Wood-like substance that I have
seen used on target pistols that seemed about perfect for this application
but I dont know what it is or where to get it. MarineTex is avaialble at
most any boating supply house online or otherwise and is an outstanding
bedding compound but I dont think it is particularly suitable for this
job: too hard to use, not "plastic-y" enough. It'll work but I rather do
something else. If there is a wood filler out there (sybnthetic?) that
is less prone to shrinkage than your basic Plastic Wood, I would look there
first. I imagine you can dye it using either epoxy dye from Brownells or
the good ole' model airplane paint trick.
-Tom
It's the nut behind the butt who knows what to do with the machine,
not the frozen barreled, cut-rifled, McMillan-stocked, Devcon/Marine-tex
bedded, Badger/Leupold glassed, Jewell triggered dream rifle shooting coated
bullets. It doesn't shoot itself.
Become a good rifleman. Buy what you can afford and shoot to your
gear's potential. Then upgrade and become a BETTER rifleman. Lots of guys
have rifles that they'll never shoot to its potential. Some guys don't
know it yet, but they shoot better than their rifles/glass are capable
of.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
You are Oh so right as usual! But its a lot of fun to tinker and
experiment with the gear. Great Field Skills, Trigger time, and lotsa rounds
downrange are what makes the real deal - so VERY real.
Are coming up to watch me try the first "Flopping Bass" stalk of
the 21st century? Should be a hoot!
Now to G-2 a new watering hole..............
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Molly is not for me. If a guy likes it and it works for him fine,
but why? That is the basic question. What does it do for a sniper?
Stan, Michael,Pwete, Ken, Danny M. and all the others thank you for
the nice emails. I want this thing to not be a DR issue. Please keep it
that way. We come here for shooting information and friendly chat with
friends.
Undude/Delta Bravo/Mike
The best thing about peacetime competition (vice training) is that's
where you put your money where your mouth is for bragging rights (since
nobody's shooting at you for ALL the marbles).
So my protege is now madly cutting up burlap and netting to make
his wookie suit? Hope you're not doing it in the wife's brand spanking
new living room!
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Bruce K Hudgens
Bruce K Hudgens/TRIDENT PROFESSIONAL DIVERS <satdivr@micron.net>
The .300 WBY has a proven track record in the game fields and have
won many championships in Long Distance Shooting. Either the plain ol Vanilla
or the "Improved" versions are awful good in a correctly set up rifle.
Dave,
Protege? I'm flattered, but a better visualization might be a By-Gawd
hybred of Stan Laurel, and Sherlock Holmes sidekick Dr. Watson. RLMAO!!!!
Mikey,
Check yo e-mail Dude!
Chao!
http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/framp1e.htm
Basically, they say there is sometimes an effect, sometimes no effect.
Just cut and paste the URL, or click below
It was definitely good to hear from you..
Bruce....
Just how accurate CAN you make one of these, and what would you want
to do to it to get the accuracy? Free float handguard, changing the barrel,
muzzle break of some kind? Thanks!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
I see the moly issue is back online. I have an opinion and you all
know about opinions. To answer a question why Moly? Well for
For the uninitiated, Emil is one of the fine soldiers from the National
Champion Service Rifle Team of the United States Army Marksmanship Unit,
the USAMU. It was NCOs like him when I was a snot-nosed Second Lieutenant
who taught me the fine points of reading wind, calling shots, and paraphrasing
from that little Yoda guy in the movie "Star Wars," "Don't THINK, DO!"
I believe that anyone who frequents this site will get more than
his money's worth shooting NRA style service or match rifle competition,
and long-range prone competition as well. Any opportunity to read winds
and drop a hammer on a live round is training.
There was a great quote on the opening pages of Precision Shooting
a few months back. One of the world's great marathon runners had posted
on his mirror (I'm paraphrasing):
"Somewhere out there
If it's just recreational shooting, it doesn't mean much. If you
are competing, it means a lot more.
If you are a soldier or cop, it means playing for keeps.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Just to set you guys at ease there are actually small factions of
folks in the military (yes even the Guard) that understand what marksmanship
is all about. They understand the importance of competition and its application
to combat. Praslick is one of them and guys like him, Boucher and others
are the biggest hope we have for passing on the corporate knowledge to
further generations of Soldiers, Marines, and even (gag) Sailors and (choke)
Airmen.
Okay big Sarge I'm through stroking you. Talked to Gentry and Bacon
the other day they're doing fine.
Out here
I appreciate any comments as I know a number of you have solved this
problem and your experiences are more important than the technical possibilites.
And for the wisecrackers, yes, I measured the diff when I bought the rifle,
but it really didn't seem more than a hair out of alignment. I guess I
was using a rather large hair for comparison.
From what I have seen, FAL accuracy is typicaly quite good for an
iron-sighted batle rifle, something on the order of 1.5-2 MOA. Thats adequate
for a lot of missions but as a sniper rifle, the FAL comes up short. As
for accurizing solutions, there is realy very little product on the market
that will help al;l that much, short of having DS Arms or somebody like
that put a heavy "match" barrel on one. Even with that, the FAL has some
fundamental design problems that would prevent it from becoming a real
tack driver as we here would recognise the term. The mass of that piston
flainging back and forth while atteched to the barel combined with the
absence of a convienient way to float out the handguards results in some
real complications without reinventing the rifle.
Call it a 2 MOA rifle, and be happy.
HTH
-Tom
UnDude: of all the names to be stuck with, the Delta Bravo is by
far the most undeserved. Funny, but undeserved. What do I have to paint
if I call you by that? ;-)
I finally got the computer upgrade completed. What a pain in the
neck that was. So, I finally got the cast bullet production well under
way. You know, I am saving a ton of money on my ammo. For the same cost
of using jacketed bullets in my pistols I can shoot abot six times as much
or better. I am using a Lyman 450 sizer, and I just bought or ordered rather
the heater to use hard lubes.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
I bought last weekend 400 rounds of British surplus ammo in 7.62
Nato. I would like to know a little bit of the ammo more.
The can says L2A2 7.62 Nato. Labels say 4-88 RG, so I think this
ammo was made in Radway Green ammo factory in April 88. Bullet weight is
9.50 gramms, something like 147 grains. Bullet has a slight boattail and
is crimped quite heavily to the case. Brass has the Nato cross and the
cases are bredan primed, so cases are practically nonrelaodable. Powder
weighted 2.82 gramms/round.
I tried to find out what is the supposed muzzle velocity of this
ammo and what is the B.C. More or less all sources told that 7.62 Nato
has a bullet weighing anything between 9.3 to 9.5 gramms and muzzle velocity
out of G3, FAL, GPMG etc varied between 820 and 840 meters per second.
That is 2733 - 2800 fps. So I think 840 m/s is about right. The only mentioning
of B.C. for any FMJ 147 grain 30 calibre bullet was .404 mentioned in Mike
Lau´s books.
Does anyone know which muzzle velocity is this British ammo supposed
to have and what is the B.C. for the bullet ?
Best regards,
Hexa
There is an inherent difficulty in communicating subtle concepts
via text to which I seem to endlessly fall victim. The point I intended
to make in my previous post was one of "hierarchy"... I meant to imply
keeping one's word to be as a foundation is to a house.
One cannot have honor without honoring debts, but one does not necessarily
have honor because the bills are paid.
The business of evaluating team-mates with regard to their motivation
under life and death situations is not the same as evaluating one's risks
in a business deal. Really honorable folks are extremely rare, often mis-judged,
and hard to recognize. Next to family, there is nothing I value more.
My opinion said... I will restate what others have said on this site.
The opportunity to learn from men like yourself and Mike Miller is well
worth a couple extra bucks.... you should add to the cost of your next
class to cover such risks in the future. I'll still come out to learn.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
Re: FAL
This discussion has been visited here before in typical DR excruciating
has ever been better. The operant term is "battle rifle." Mike and I played
with mine at the course last summer and were hitting a 26" gong at 750
yards with iron sights. The weapons used has a match grade barrel. With
that said and without starting another round of controversy about what
constitutes "sniping", the FAL is not the weapon of choice for a sniper.
The debate for the use of gas guns and bolts is also germane to the discussion
and we have growled at each other over that before.
The operational doctrine for snipers has changed since my operational
days. I would defer to Gooch and to Rick Boucher(who ran sister teams when
we both served with the secret projects in SF in VN together) or to Gene.
These guys are better able to address this issue under current doctrine.
Bravo: To even consider the H&K 91 makes me question if you haven't
been sampling your brew a bit too much. That weapon is so overrated and
has at least two fatal flaws. Leave such stuff to our so-called allies
in Europe. When they become our enemies as they inevitably will, some will
die because of that weapon. The reason I am alive today is because of the
location of the safety on the AK47 and the location of the safety on the
CAR-16. Ergonomics my man.
"Sometimes a man's life depends upon a mere scrap of information"
Ramon and restated by Clint Eastwood in "Fistfull of Dollars."
See you girls tomorrow. Hauling horses from Arizona to New Mexico
today. Have to negotiate all the yuppies and fags driving their cool cars,
wearing spandex and sandals, with no regard for my truck and horsetrailer.
Wish I had a quad .50 mounted:-) Sometimes my scars itch and I think I
sure as hell didn't get these scars for the likes of these day tradin,
stock dealing counterfeit sonsabitches. Godalmighty what the hell has happened
to this nation?
Strength and Honor,
James
Emil,
Cryo or not??
This and other information from you I would appreciate. Thanks!!!
Orion <orion-8472@hotmail.com>
Nice to hear from you again! The only figure I could find was a B/C
of .320 for the 147 gr weight, specifically PMC ball.
Maybe Torsten or TorF has some more data.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
I've had sporter-weight barrels which would heat up and walk the
string clear off the paper if I tried using them for target work. They
warped and straighted like bi-metal thermometers. I believe the only (marksmanship)
use of this CRYOGENIC treatment is to be able to shoot skinny barrels even
when they're hot. Steyr barrels(and probably other high-end skinny barrels)
don't seem to mind the heat. I simply resigned myself to using varmint
contour and up, if I'm not willing to wait with the action open for 5 minutes
between shots.
Miling,
Put up a white and brown one at the same time. so the marage and
other condx will be the same...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Orion: in order, mine was about $2800 plus receiver (worn out rifle),
7.62 NATO (or 308 on a really bad day), More accurate than 1/3 MOA? No.
Mags can be had in 5, 10, 20 rounds or my Dad made up 40+'s decades ago
for use on aerial platforms. If you set it up for a scope, yes. Don't purchase
one, have it built. SLIGHTLY higher than what I huffed up shooting at Jameses
place (oh, but what a view and position!). Mail me offline if you want
more info, we'll get you one built.
Mistah Bullet: seems that something along this line happened out
at the school, but can't recall the specifics. I have noticed it at home
since, but only when the reticle was bronze colored and not black. Patron
'Lito explained the science, and why and how it turned bronze.
In the Sportsman Guide they have some for sale and the spec's they
have say the muzzle velocity is 2252fps. I assume this is a misprint tho.
(you know what they say about one who "assumes") I suspect they meant 2552fps
or 2652fps. BUT, they listed the energy at 2518ft lbs so one could calculate
the velocity from that. I'd had to get the book out tho so I'll leave it
up to you. So, maybe this will help.
John
John
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
The Radway Green arsenal ammo, brand new, is rated at 2760 fps. As
a rule of thumb (that I use) for every decade of storage and largely depending
on the quality of the ball powder used, the powder charge looses propulsion
capacity by about 8-10%; ergo the rating in the 2500's that John from Hudson
cited from the Sportsman Guide source.
The Radway Green and the South African made 150gr BT-FMJ 7.62NATO
ammunition is the only ammunition I use with my HK's. Never had a misfire,
misfeed or a cook-off with either.
The only problem though with the R.G. ammunition though (or any mil
surplus for that matter) is that it is quite inconsistent in the sense
that muzzle velocities can (and will) vary within a range of 3-6%, even
from the same lot.
Expect sub-MOA at 100 meters, 1-1.5MOA at 200 and 1.5-2MOA at 300
meters as far as accuracy in concerned with the R.G. ammunition.
Ares.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Anyone have contact address or E-mail,website,any help appreciated.
Chris
I've got a Tasco SS10x42 that was vandalized. Both the occular and
objective lenses were cracked and the tube was dented.
Warrantee implies protection to the buyer, from manufacturing defects.
I know that Tasco doesn't have the best reputation in the world,
but getting coverage for the damage you discribe, as a manufacturing defect,
would bring a totally new definition to the phrase "Silver Tongue Devil!".
However, I would suggest you send it to them, and "fess up" that
it got busticated, and ask them to fix it. Most of these companies will
replace a catistrophic mess for a fraction of it's street cost.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Here is a training tip for you'se guys. Instead of ranging on a nice
clear piece of white steel, try placing objects that you will commonly
find in your AO next to the target you will shoot on, range off of the
object and shoot the steel. Objects might be a license plate, a 50 gallon
oil drum, a tire etc. Now how do ya like me?
I am happy to announce that I will be moving back to Arkansas soon
(those that know me the best refer to me as "tumbleweed"). After Gov Huckabees
response to the Attorney General Of New York re: the S&W deal I will
refrain from refering to the State as Clintonia. Also since the President
and her husband are moving to New York it is another reason to head south.
Out here
You really think "Slick" is moving to NY with that dyke pig, when
there's all those pretty young hunnys down south, just waiting to help
with the "Library ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
This is the first time as a norwegian I've ever been labelled as
an probable "enemy" of the USA.
H&K G3 a dagerous battlerifle? That's not my experience. If the
drills are done right the G3 is utterly reliable and on average the most
accurate battlerifle made in 7.62NATO. 1moa is the norm with a new norwegian
AG3. I've owned a brand new M14 by Winchester and 3 different FAL's. I've
tested the Galil and the Stoner. If I had to make a choice today it would
still be the G3. I know what a new G3 can do straight out of the box. And,
like the Steyr SSG, they ALL do it right at once without any need for tuning.
Just mount the QD-scope, zero it and go.
The G3 was used for many years in combat by a European nation, Portugal.
They fought in Angola and Mozambique at the same time you were having "fun"
in Vietnam. The fightingconditions in the field/jungle were almost identical.
Do you think they reported any serious reliabilityproblems with their G3
battlerifle? Or with their MG3 for that matter?
M14 and M60 vs. G3 and MG3? Hmmm.... USA - POR: 0-1
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
The rounds I did fire grouped right around 1/2 to 3/4 moa with a
few flyers that could have been my fault. They were 3-4 inches out of the
group. This was fired off of the bipod with no sand bags at all, I forgot
to take them with me that day, So I can't tell if it was me that caused
the flyers or the ammo itself All of this was through a PSS by the way.
I will be back at the Range this weekend with a rifle rest and I will probably
shoot some more of the stuff. As I work out the dope, I'll share that info
with you.
Well, you're wrong about what companies will fix, and not fix.
Consider... I bought a new (discontinued) Bushnell .22 scope for
$48 to go on my 8 year old sons rifle, and it was a POS on arrival.
If you really screw up a Remington, or Winchester, and send it back
with a nice letter... you will get it "repaired"... (but it will have a
new barrel, new action, and new serial number;) Hmmmm.
But you gotta be nice (no matter how hard it is ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
You can deny it all you want, but we Americans know you Norwegians
are laying in wait for just the right moment to launch your attack on the
US, and take us over!
We know it's not the Gold in Fort Knox you want, and we know it's
not the food or grain fields, or oil reserves, and it sure ain't most of
our women...
But we ARE wise to you... it's out Shopping malls you want.
Well I'll make you a deal, we surrender, if you promise to take the
shopping malls back to Norway with you, and leave your women solders behind,
as occupation forces ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I just got this email from STG Charles Cox
The American team walked away the big winners. STG Cox brough home
5 gold, 2 sliver, & 5 bronze metels. He was also awared the Queens
top 100 & top 50 badges along with most of his team mates.
OUTSTANDING Job STG COX
LeMay OUT
I may go to Walmart and purchase a Weatherby VNG (Weatherguard) in
7MM Mag. It will cost $388 and some change. Are all Weatherby rifles good
quality or do they have 'cheaper made' models that Walmart sells? I've
seen Weatherby rifles at Bass Pro Shop for twice the ammount or more.
If I DO get this, what scope will be enough to handle the 7MM Mag
power?
Opinions are appreciated!!! Thanks!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
SURE YOU CAN TRUST THE GOVERNMENT! JUST ASK AN INDIAN.......
The FAL balances well and has sites to 600 meters but no windage
adjustment. It shoots very well and balances better. It is sealed to the
outside crap well. It has an easily adjustable gas system so it will keep
working no matter how many rounds you put through it. This is my favorite
308 battle rifle. It has a bolt hold open and controls are easy to use.
The M14 has the best sites. It shoots very well(better than any G3
I have seen) It is the lightest. The stock and open action design suck
for field use, but the thing will function all day every day. Controls
are easy to use. Best trigger of any Battle rifle. I have several and love
them but the FAL gets the nood for serious work. Bravo, you are well armed
with a M14.
On Radway Green ammo. This stuff shoots very well and works in both
my FAL's abd M14's without a hitch.
On the Patriot Thing: I fear the worst is coming where men will be
rare and guys that should stay on the pourch with the women ( To quote
a wise woman I know) run this place into the ground. If we do not all stand
up and be counted now. Not tomorrow but now! I have been taught and tried
to live by the words "We all survive this together or we all go down together"
(Team Creed). This has cost me a few wounds here and there but I can look
myself in that mirror and not look away with disgust. I find fewer and
fewer men that live by that creed. Thank God almost all of you on here
do.
I was sickened the other day when I read the Calif. Penal code and
saw where if I taught Calif citizens at the range how to shoot, with out
qualifications to call it a school by education code standards, it could
be called an unlawful assembly for the purposes of a paramilitary group
and a crime could be committed. Now I can teach all the cops in the world
but if I teach Calif Citizens I have to have a school by education code
requirements, or all of use can go to jail as an Illegal Paramilitary group.
THIS Only applies to classes taught in Calif. What a bunch of crap! Well
James and I will be running many classes out of Calif in the future. Maybe
we should give a discount to Calif residents for having to put up with
the liberal stress factor. Man I can not wait to move when I retire.
Bill R= Patriot!
Undude/Mike
UnDude-ski
Would you please e-mail me the Penal code about the "Crime" of teaching
shooting...
Thanks.
'lito
After carefully looking at the scope, I realized that it took a lot
of damage before it died, with the lethal injuries being caused by direct
impacts to the objective and occular lenses. The body was dented in some
places and the elevation turret was knocked loose to the point where it
rotated freely. After tightening the three screws on the elev turret, it
seemed to be working fine.
The internal lenses appreared to be intact, even with hammer impact
marks on the outside of the tube over them. I'm convinced that had the
lenses not been struck directly, the scope would have survived.
The only field conditions that I can think of that would be close
to the type of abuse that scope took would be falling off a cliff or getting
hit by a car. Maybe getting hit by mortar fragments. This scope is rugged,
indeed, and I will be ordering a new one shortly.
In the review section, it is mentioned that unless someone were to
test this scope to destruction you wouldn't know how much damage it could
take and still function. I think I can safely say that if you have a SS10x42
and it gets destroyed while you are using it, you probably have more to
worry about (like calling in a medevac for yourself) than your scope.
As used in this subsection paramilitary organization means an organization
which is not an agency of the United Staes Government or the State of Calif.,
or which is not a school meeting the requirements set forth in section
12154 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training
in guerilla warfare or sabotage, or which as an organization engages in
rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with
school activities.
Nothing in this subsection shall make unlawful any act of any peace
officer or member of the military forces of this state or of the United
States, performed in the lawful course of his official duties."
You can see this is a can of worms and somethinga teacher of civilians
in Calif should be aware of. Seems like the teacher would have to prove
he did not know the bad guy/student was going to do something wrong. I
think I will just teach non LE out of state.
Undude/Mike
Jeff Bracken <RealManJeff@aol.com>
I gave up trying to contact Mike Lau. I called, e-mailed etc. to
no avail. I'm waiting for a TBA M40A1 as well. Mike said the lead time
was 9-12 months but after reviewing some of the posts - it seems more like
1 1/2 - 2 years. The rifle quality speaks for itself but damn if I wouldn't
mind at least a quarterly status update. Mike, if you're listening, how
about posting production info on your website?
You, your guns, and your students are always welcome in Texas. Most
people, even the liberals, still believe in the Constitution here. Hopefully
we will even have some pull in the White House next year.
Jeff,
On the battle rifle issue,
Back into the fox hole for now, I sense incoming.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
I haven't posted to the Roster in a long while. But, I have a question
that you probably can answer.
Anyway, Ft. Benning will change the format of their match next month.
Actually, it changed this month but moi couldn't go... whimper.
It will be four runs of 5 rounds each at 5 targets at unknown distance
from 50 to 360 yds. The "hit" factor will be a score that's calculated
by points divided by time... shooting against an electronic timer.
I've thought about how to prep for and practice for this. Well, some
of my wanker ideas may not work for horse poop so my question is this:
Is there a way to set up the scope to allow a faster target aquisition
via Kentucky elevationage by leaving a "zero" range on the scope and holding
or would it better to just go slow and make elevation/paralax adjustments
to insure accurate hits ( and, hence take more time ). Or, am I making
this into something weird and complicated, and probably need another couple
of sessions of electroconvulsive therapy to pump KISS back into my thinking.
I just finished my very first full "season" of shooting in the tactical
matches so now my preverbial feet are wet. This new format presents more
complexity than I'm accustomed to but rerally looks like good training
to me.
Any response would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff A.
From what I have experienced and heard so far, the AR-10s as made
nowadays are still come up a bit short as bet-'yer-ass battle rifles. They
are just not *quite* reliable enough for me to take them over a known-good
military rifle like a M14, FAR or G3. They break a few more parts (seen
one spit out a bolt stop the other week), the magazine arrangement is a
bit jury-rigged and they can be a bit senesitive to different flavors of
ammunition. They are somethimng like Bushmaster AR-15s were before they
got the M4 contract and aquired the technology to make a true MILSPEC rifle.
All Armalite would need to do is a little debugging, but the kind of debugging
that only the military is realy in a position to do correctly. Now, if
the USMC would invest in them as Designated Marksmans Rifles, that would
be very cool. By the time they got through that process and tweaked up
a little, they would be phenominal rifles. For now I would go with the
M14, FAL and G3 in about that order. The FAL has some very nice features
(better ergos, for one) and the G3 is a bit more reliable than either of
the above under adverse conditions, but I can hit things with my M14 at
least as well as with the FAL, its got better sights and its lighter, not
to mention the fact that I got enough tools and parts to keep one running
for about 500 years...
Mike/Undude and the anti-militia training law:
I know you dont want to be the test-case but I have a suspicion that
the AG of CA is not too eager to see if this turkey will pass constitutional
muster before the US Supreme Court. I seem to recall something in the 1st
Amendment about our having an explicit freedom of association. The State
of Californication will have a tough time selling it to the SC unless they
try only the most obvious and blatant insurrectionist nutcases.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
G3's: I recall reading that for WW1 "the Germans had the best hunting
rifles, the English the best battle rifles, and the Americans the best
target rifles". Doesn't make sense to me since Springfields are Mausers,
but whatever. I think it still applies to this discussion. My 91 (Springfield)
was great until the barrel heated up, then the groups got loose. Great
hunter, as you won't be heating the barrel up. My M1A had about the same
groups after 100 moderately fast rounds as it did cold, best sights and
best trigger. Great target rifle. The FAL is probably the best battle rifle
extant, but only beats the M1A by microns if that. Now, if they were to
make a FAL a little lighter, with M-14 sights and a nice trigger......
And FYI, the guy I was talking about with the "Crest test" also had a lovely
match grade FAL, even got someone to smuggle an origional C1 sniper scope
out of Canada when it was supposed to be destroyed by the Canadian government
(like that Kevin?). You already know which one I saw on the range mostly
;-)
Pat: we're talking single rifles here, so anything goes. I don't
think a general rule would hold until you put 500 rack grade G3's against
500 rack grade FAL's against 500 rack grade M-14's. I know my M-25 will
outdo my buddies "super-ultra-mega" match grade FAL, but again, we're talking
individual rifles.
And comparing the M-60 to the M-14 is entirely unfair. The M-14 worked,
all the time every time, day in and day out. That's why my dear old Dad
made those long mags. Seems one of his '60's would jam lots, but the 14
never would! When the '60 jammed, he would grab the 14 off the bulkhead
and stay in the fight.
Mike: what you said on the battle rifles is 110% right on. Now get
the heck outta there! There's no compulsion to obey illegal laws, but who
wants to go through the headache of the law suits when jurists are disallowed
the knowlege of jury nullification? Maybe one of our lawyers out there
could tell me, but from what I've caught, if you talk about jury nullification,
you're in contempt or you get an instant mistrial. At the least, that jury
member is dismissed and replaced. Remember me saying something about dictators
acting through laws? Who voted for that law?!?
Hey Patron 'Lito, how about a translation for our new friend from
Mexico? Mi espanol is not mui bien.
In the old "H-series" TO&E there were 4 two-man sniper teams
in the Combat Support Company Recon Platoon (one pair of soldiers per jeep,
later Humvee). I guess they're now in the HHC.
The guys at the Directorate of Combat Developments at the Infantry
School at Fort Benning would be the guys drafting the new MTOEs.
As for the G3, I always thought it had an unusual "one-two" recoil.
Squeeze the trigger and the gun pushed back the first time as the rifle
recoiled rearward and the rollers unlcoked, then the second "bump" happens
when the bolt hits the rear of its travel. Not a nice recoil push like
the FAL or M14.
As for HK reliability, I have seen MP5s shoot ammo with corrosion
on the cases that I thought would never feed, let alone fire. HK fluted
chambers allow for some amazing reliability that has to be seen to be believed.
Bill R (a Patriot's Patriot) was dead on regarding the possible use
of NATO troops as UN errand boys to disarm Americans. I am not a conspiracy
buff, but I do not trust this fucking government as far as I can spit,
nor do I trust most Americans to stand to the line to defend freedom in
a meaningful manner.
I have an adopted son that is a US Army major that just left assignment
as the liason to Buckingham Palace. I am proud of that boy, and I take
pride in rendering military courtesy to him as I was only a Staff Sergeant.
But, he understands that if he ever shows up on US soil wearing UN blue,
I or one of my special ops teammates will shoot him graveyard dead. I would
have spent my life in prison before I ever took an order or served under
anyone not an American. But, I also refused to salute women unless they
were nurses and held officers not in the combat arms in contempt. So, that
should provide enough fuel for disruption:-)
Strength and Honor,
james
Was kinda pondering looking into taking the dive and trading/buying
one. Any suggestions on who, what, where?
Rich S- get Mike Miller's sling. After spending a week long class
on sling shooting nothing else came close for me. Others in the class were
jealous and wanted it. BTW- the instructor in that course (Chuck Julian)is
a big time sling proponent. He said to stay away from the leather 1917's
as they need expertise to work well (and to assemble correctly also!!)
Gore gave a spech in my area yesterday. I wanted to go down with
a big sign saying COPS WANT BUSH!! but my buddy wouldn't go along. Can't
figure out why.......
ouch.. You are pouring gasoline into a fire. UN troops will never
show up. No President would ever allow that. Third world troops would be
too busy browsing the malls and Russian troops would be drunk all day.
But Norwegians..well, they are another story. I trust them as much as I
trust the French.
MP-5; When we were doing all that testing around about reaction times
and weapons that worked etc. We had a test shoot. The scenerio was a 3
parter where there were multiple targets, hostage targets and a distance
involved to cover with time multipliers. The best 2 shots counted and the
others were ignored. Machine gunners participated, bolt rifle's, shotguns,
Out
In By-Gawd we call that time to "Get The Hell Out". I bet its definately
applicable to both the highway drivers, and Hollywood crews filming those
V-I-O-L--E-N-T movies huh?
Folks, don't keep banging your heads on the wall.
Get a T.I.S. QUICK CUFF sling for the rifle, and a Mil-Dot Master,
Slope Doper, and TRGT data book to keep the bits and pieces in.
I say this based on my past experiences, failing to obtain them BEFORE
I needed them, and now having them.
Jeff A,
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
I apologise for whatever happened here. What it is I have no idea,
as the files uploaded fine last night - or I thought they did. And last
night I went braindead again and didn't check them as usual!!
I do not have the data here at work (I just accidentally checked
the Roster this morning), but I will fix this tonight to the best of my
abilities. It seems the Reverse Order Roster has got all the new posts,
so I will work off that to rebuild the normal Roster, and make sure what
should be on display is.
Apologies once again.
Marius
PS Ken, I need to get all the detail about accessing the webmaster
mail in one place again, as I can't do so here at work for some or other
reason. Seems like I'm missing something small. My personal address, included
here, I do monitor.
Its been some time since I posted... too much personal stuff going
on... I do want to take some time to mention a several sniper related website
updates if I may.
First I wanted to let you all know that I have just enhanced Mike
'The Undude' Miller's Tactical
Intervention Specialists website with a brand new internal site search
capability.(http://www.tacticalintervention.com/) This new site enhancement
allows you to simply enter the keyword you are looking for - you will be
given a list of all the pages on his site where that word appears.
For those of you who have wanted to order Mike's slings using a credit
card, there is also now a direct link up from the Tactical Intervention
Site to TRGT LLP. TRGT is now taking
orders for Mikes Slings and you CAN pay via CC there.
I have also updated Jerry Rice's Nor
Cal Precision website. Jerry has added some new stock options and other
goodies from Accuracy International to his inventory and he has also added
a few new precision rifle links to his offsite links page. Stop by http://www.best.com/~tactical/tenants/norcalprecision/
and check it out.
Jerry has been receiving some very glowing words here on Sniper Country
as of late and the Review
of the Norcal Nighthawk Rifle that Mike Miller did some time back speaks
very highly of Mr. Rice's work.
Finally I wanted to let you know that MemorablePlaces.com
as part of the M1
Garand Resource has a great little Gun
Control Humor Section that you might find enjoyable. You're invited
to drop in there too!
Take care!
Glad to hear that you're enjoying the chile (note the correct spelling...you've
been away from NM too long). Let me know when you need more.
Try buying that stuff in NY and NJ. When we were there, we had our
friends ship it to us regularly. I won't leave NM again.
Now if we can just get Mike to leave Kalifornia. Just heard on the
news that the LA school system is contemplating the banning of the wooden
drill team rifles used in JROTC, under their "zero tolerance" policy. Heaven
forbid that a student who is contemplating devoting his life to the defense
of his country should be exposed to such tools of the devil.
Sure wish common sense wasn't so uncommon.
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Mike must be making a customer service effort because I just called
and he answered. He was cordial and professional as usual and promised
my rifle end of August. I was so shocked I actually called back and said
"uh Mike, you did mean this year right?". We both laughed and talked about
his production status. Mike mentioned he is going to try and clear up the
backlog over the next few months and then make some business decisions
about production. He still does all the work himself and has about forty
rifles in queue.
2) What do you shooters use for rests / bags in the field? Other
than the rucksack or buttpack, do you carry any kind of bags filled with
sand or some other suitable media, especially for a rear bag?
Direct e-mail responses would be preferred because I don't get to
check the Duty Roster very often. Thanks in advance.
Hold your ground, Dude-ski...
"Chile".. a country in South America (near Peru, who never solved
their political problems), that doesn't eat "Chili", a food popular in
Mexico, and along the Tex-Mex border, and often eaten by gun toten' bums
from Texas (me and thee)... and often diluted, pissed on, and watered down
to nothin' more than wet beans by yuppies...
Bruce... Diga mé.... could a "Pablito" be wrong on this one??
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Logical perspective:
This may be preaching to the choir, not to mention premature, but
don't forget to remind everybody to vote in November. It seems as though
voting is the only thing in the Constitution that we are allowed to do
anymore.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
Once again my apologies for the hickup. As I am typing this both
the normal Roster and the Reverse Order Roster are loading to confirm that
they are as they should be - shame on me for not doing that last night.
Why I did not I have got no idea, as I normally do. Hopefully we didn't
lose too many, if any posts.
And now boys and girls, back to your normal program :-)
Marius
"It seems as though voting is the only thing in the Constitution
that we are allowed to do anymore."
If you are a Republican, you have to "Go and vote", but up in this
part of the country, if you are a dem.. demo.. democr... Aw, you know the
one... they send a bus for you, and take you to the polls, and if you don't
know which levers to pull (cuz you've been in the country 3 weeks), they'll
pull the levers for you... No Skit!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
D. Hurley
TE gauges are common armorers tools within military organizations
and are avaialable on the comercial market for the M1, M14, M16 and (less
commonly) the M1 carbine and M1903 Springfield. No doubt there have been
others for other US military rifles but they are much less common. However,
they are much, much less common (as in, about nonexistant) for commercial
rifles, tactical or otherwise. Never seen one for a Remington 700, for
instance and I'm not even sure if the factory would own one in this case.
With tactical rifles the common approach is to keep count of the number
of rounds run thrugh the rifle and watch to see when groups start opening
up. The point at which this occurs is usualy pretty predictable with a
given grade of barrel when chambered for a given cartrige.
Such a gauge could be developed and made easily enough. All you'd
need is a section of drill rod and a cylindrical grinder to grind the taper.
Anybody out there got a cylindrical grinder they can play with? :)
-Tom
Pablito, the fabric for the "Cammy jammies" is also on the way.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
It's "chile" in NM, not "chili". We produce it, we get to name it.
Back me up on this, Sarge. You're closer to Hatch than I am.
Similarities between the Texas Flag and the Chilean flag has messed
with the residents of Baja Oklahoma for years.
Chile Verde is on me if you get out this way!
Dave L., I agree the G3 has a weird recoil and the MP5 is indestructable,
but heavy as hell for a pistol. Have you tried the HK53K? Just get them
with the muzzle flash and sound bomb it makes. MP5 is a thing (mark my
words) that will all but extinct in the next ten years. Pistol calibers
suck in a gunfight. The 223, with proper bullets, will zip through body
armor and stop in the bad guy. That my man, is a big advantage. Massive
amount of energy of little amount into the same area. The 223 is the new
era of calibers for entry work and CQB. Gone are the days of the SAS/HRT/Delta/SEALS
going in with sexy little nines.
Slings, I have gone from making them one at a time to having another
guy make them for me, while I get that dammed machine fixed again, sorry
for any delay. Sixty should be ready this week and that is far more than
need to be shipped. My slings is not legal for NRA Service rifle catagory,
no cuff sling is. They work too well.. You can use it in Match Rifle or
as intended THE FIELD!
Undude/Mike/ New Mexico Bound in the future
Ben <obie_ben@hotmail.com>
'Lito and Bruce: you're BOTH right! In the Texas border towns it
was chili, in the Demming / Hatch area it's chile. If it's Jimi Hendrix,
then it's voo-doo chile ;-) Doesn't matter as long as it's from Hatch!
So anyone think I'd be stupid for taking a stock mini-14 (not my
good one) to a CQB class instead of a CAR?
And what is proper technique for painting a flash hider? Does it
matter if the paint gets into the cuts? How do you keep it from getting
INTO the bore area of the flash hider? Lastly, anyone have any experience
with GI spray paint on aluminum? Do it woik, and does it clean off with
something like brake fluid pretty well?
You guys may produce it... but it was invented by the pre-Columbian
Aztecs... the Nahuatl peoples... and they called it "Chilli", and since
they named it, maybe a thousand years ago, they're copywrite stands before
counterfeits from that "NEW" Mexico place!! Harumph! ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
It doesn't matter if the paint gets in the slots, it leaves real
fast ;))
Bruce... I'd love to share Chili Verdi with you at Storm this Sept...
You bring the Chili Verdi, and I'll bring the brew (Beaver Brew??).
'lito
Of course pistol calibers suck in a gunfight. But if you're in a
crowded bus or choo-choo, 5.56 and muzzle blast can screw you up as bad
as the audience (both receiving and those just along for the ride).
The State Department's Diplomatic Security Service has 5.56 HKs.
Why, I don't know. Maybe it's the "Cool" factor. I certainly don't think
it's a better weapon (nor apparently does the Bundeswehr, since they bought
the G36).
Bravo, Mini-14 over a CAR-15? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah! Stop,
you're gonna make me wet myself!
I'm sure somebody will trade you for a CAR if you throw in a few
bills.
Stan oh Stan, my misguided friend. Please I will loan youi a CAR
if you dont have one for the class. Friends dont let friends defend themselves
with Rutgot I mean Rugers. Play toy yes but serious defend your life weapon
not me. Just because it looks similar to your M14 does not make it a copy.
Gas system is not so good, bbl is a tent spike. Workmanship is not as good
as the bbl and gas system.
MIke
Not to try to change your minds or anything, but my "good" mini doesn't
ever jam unless I don't mind where my left hand fingers go (it's an origional
180 series, the one without the op rod guard). Mike, you're absolutely
right though, the gas system is different, and the stock barrel is good
as a tent stake. At best. But it's good enough for "Bob the Nailer" ;-)
AIRBORNE!!!
I two new Jerry rifles coming soon; another .308 and a .300 Win mag
with all the fixins (tactical vent/flash hider). If you ever get away from
your M1-A (which you shoot very well) get a bolt gun from Jerry.
It will be a good time to take another class with you at ASA. I am
looking forward to it! I am pretty certain that Mike & I will be flying
next time though! 1,100 miles stopping just long enough for gas, coffee
and a pit stop is kinda tough.
Please keep brewing!
Michael
out here
Youse guys just have to try some Chilli with C-H-I-P-O-T-L-E-S. My
nine year old sez "It Rules"(Thats a smoked Jalapeno peppers that us real
Chiliheads love and adore, anybody done or can source for me Mesquite smoked
Habaneros?)
Next best thing to South African Blue Wildebeest Biltong.
Bravo,
Chao!
Michael: ditto that. My mini was a "good" one before the change.
It was between a 3 and 4 MOA carbine off the bench. Sub MOA is possible
with a barrel change, and if I had wanted to pay for it, sub 1/4 MOA was
possible (surprising what can be done with an Obermeyer barrel!). Not on
mine. I've already decided that if/when I ever get a bolt gun, Jerry will
be doing the build. And as I've said before, I'm working HARD on NOT buying
a 260. Good news, the brew notes dried out better than initially thought,
didn't lose as much as expected. If you're going to be at the next class,
save your (non-twist top) empties. I'll swap 'em for fulls. If you need
a home for those poor unused mini mags, I'll forward you my address ;-)
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
Godalmighty. To even seriously consider a mini over a CAR is further
evidence that your home brew is highly effective. In 16 years of teaching
citizens, I have NEVER had a CQB or carbine class where the mini's made
it through the entire course without going down on the line. The CARs have
also gone down but most have made it. They are poorly balanced, very slow
on mag changes, difficult sight acquisition, most folks have to surrender
the firing grip to unlock the bolt, and most shoot poorly beyond 100 meters.
Besides, given that Ruger was the first one to roll over on the mag cap
ban so they could keep their gov't contracts, why support them? A whore
is a whore no matter how she dresses.
Torsten called me from Germany this AM and we had a great chat. We
may still disagree on some things, but we enjoyed each other's company.
It is the conduct of grown men. We do however, agree about the fucking
French.
Strength and Honor
Brought a friend down to Raton last weekend. He has a 7mm stw with
a sneider(sp) barrel that he has never really shot. We came up with a load
for it with the sierra .284 168s and 870 going 3200 Well i made him get
rid of the silly target dot scope(education in progress) and he put a super
sniper on it. So we get up early the first day to beat the wind and i ask
him where he wants to shoot and he says the 1000 ,and im like right. remember
this is with a gun that he has zeroed at 100 and thats it. hes forgotten
his ballistic chart so he runs back and gets it. A brief discussion "moas
are inchs right...?" We get set on the 1000 and he clicks in his data from
the chart ZERO wind shoots 7 at the target.Those 80 grs of 870 really warm
that heavy barrell up Im snickering in my mind. So we drive downrange.
Im shitting you not 6" group directly in the center of the bull.
The humbling came real quick. Classic beginers luck. He could not
get even a 18" group in the next two days try as he might. Of course he
was trying now.
It was my first experience with a wildcat like that. after two days
im thinking just a little two much powder for me. it sure will punch em
through though. Who was working on that 6.5/284? THAT would be about perfect
case capacity/diameter. Could you get 2900 with the sierra 155s I wonder
with maybe H1000... Maybe someday, in the meantime has anyone used the
berger 185s with varget in 308...
Ben
Sarge
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
6.5x284
I stand corrected about at least one thing. The preban ARs tend to
work better than the postbans, Elites, etc. Also, I carry a CAR because
I instruct and it is just easier to pack around while I am waving my arms
and spreading incomperable pearls of wisdom to the unwashed:-). but, why
carry a CAR when an AR has better balance, and is more accurate? I also
agree on the pistol grip thing at least on a shotgun. I prefer the lines
of a rifle except on a CQB carbine. Now I know I am inconsistent about
the carbine and the SG as they are both CQB weapons. Can't explain it.
The pistol grip is a problem especially on 360 degree rolls unless the
mover changes hand position. I have seen a wrist and thumb or two injured
by hanging onto the pistol grip. The stainless steel is a drawback to me
due to its reflective qualities. I have a preban CAR with no forward assist.
I kid you not, as an experiment, I NEVER cleaned the weapon. I fired nearly
20K rounds through it. It got sticky but I could shake it and it would
work. AND, it is consistently tactically accurate to 400 yards on a mansize
target. But it just doesn't look right in a saddle scabbard so I carry
a lever action then which is closer to the mini in lines.
I won't even tell you how pathetic were the LE types I have trained
that were issued minis. Put a bully or a crybaby together with a mini and
it is just a goddamn mess:-)
Strength and Honor,
Why waste the time with 185's?
Go directly to Varget and the 175 Sierra Match Kings. You can get
2600 fps, No pressure problems, and they shoot very well.
Sarge,
New Mexico is a state, but ONLY because its the largest grower of
Chile peppers in the USA. ;-)
later gaters (and ChileHeads)
peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
On the 223 cal as a CQB entry weapon. Doesn't that have a little
too much velocity should one miss. The round would probably penetrate 10
apartments. Even the 9mm is a little hot with the paper thin walls they
put up in buildings today. Something in a 45 ACP SMG should do the trick
and the missed rounds will probably only go through 2 apartments. What
are the good 45 sub guns ???
Just go with the Colt SMG's. Car style frame usually done on a 12"
commando style upper. These were done in 9mm, 10mm/.40 and I heard a .45
in the works.
For the HK lovers,HK does have variations on the MP5 series in different
calibers. There is the MP10, in 10mm which is fairly recent, but even back
in '91 we recieved some HK literature at 3rd Recon Bn. that had the MP
series in 9mm to 5.56mm
But, as I mentioned before, the gun has to match the mission.
Doiong a direct action raid on a G.O.Plat or a ship. you don't want
to use a high velocity round like 5.56, they would be bouncing around all
those metal surfaces. Same with what Tony said, 5.56 will zip through structure
walls like there is no tomorrow,
Hence the need to have SMG's in low velocity calibers for those times
that a caliber like 5.56 would be dangerous to not only team members but
non-combatants that mak be in the area.
Personally I think that we should bring back the old M-3 Grease Gun!
Silens, Celer, Mortalis!
The over-penetration problems of the .223 are well taken. that is
why arming the average cop with a carbine is a disaster. Subsonuic 9mm
is a good weapon for SWAT types that presumeably are better shooters. I
carried a .223 during my LE days, but I was always mindful of the problem
and preferred a handgun for entries and VCQB conditions.
As far as noise goes, I think all cqb guns should have cans on them.
I haven't shot a CAR indoors but I have shot a 22 LR and that was more
than enough to make me want hearing protection. Do any of you use hearing
protection when doing an actual entry(not training)?
All the live stuff my unit did was without hearing protection, but
we were using supressed weapons for all our CQB operations.
Kush out
Sarge: superdittos. Once called a computer place to phone order some
software. When I gave the shipping address as "New Mexico" she asked if
I was paying in US dollars. REALLY! Sure miss the Hatch chile festival.
Ben: good to hear from you amigo! Where can I get some beginners
luck?
All right there Bill, James, Mike, and everyone else, seems we have
an honest disagreement. Let's work it out the best possible way! While
my stock is back at McMillan, I've got some time on my hands. And James,
the difference in terain between your place and mine isn't even noticable.
Except my shooting range is dryer, more blowing sand (more wind), and there's
nothing over 6" tall out there (FLAT!). Not perfect, but, ah, the troubles
of having a personal 1000+ yard range ;-) I've got 1000 LC cases, just
have to take the primer crimp out, and 1000 Winchester 55 grainers. You
guys determine how you wanna do a "torture test" and I'll do it. Recording
all results. I want loading specs for the 55 FMJ's (powder, velocity),
how you want 'em shot, etc. Anything realistic goes. If 1000 rounds isn't
enough, tell me how many more you want. It's not like I'm disagreeing with
anyone, or think my rifle is so great. I'm of the opinion though that if
it's going to go broing when it should go bang, I'd like to know about
it BEFORE hand. Besides, Ruger will fix it free. For me, I'm considering
it a learning experience, and I'll ether sell the mini, or love it. As
for right now, I don't guess I feel that I know enough to make a statement
that would be worth reading. I will say this though, I won't clean it until
the "test" is completed. Educate me!
Of course I understand that all this will prove is about THIS rifle.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32604-2000Jul12.html
James, on arming the average cop with any 223 caliber weapon. I agree
with you. You need more training than the departments are going to give.
We have just the Tactical guys, FTO's that request and Sgts trained in
the AR. We only get to train them 10 hours a year. The weapons ride in
the backs of Sgt.s cars, in locked vaults. We have ACOG 4X scopes on them.
They end up being perimeter weapons for the SWAT guys. Standard round is
a soft point. Zero is set at 100 yards, with the guys taugh holdover/under
at all ranges from 15-200 yards. We have HB CAR's with 16" bbls. Not an
entry weapon. We use 14" M16/M4's for entry with the same ammo.
On sound/blast in an entry situation. I never heard a round go off
when the poop hit the fan. I prefer to have a can on the thing as it helps
stop the hearing and night vision loss that follows any indoor shot. If
I use anything other than a can I like the Vortex or standard A2 Flash
Hider.
Bravo, final word on the Mini 14, do you think anyoine could hit
a gong at 850 yards with it? I would not even try. I played with Mini's
in the late 70's and early 80's, could not hit a barn past 300 yards, scoped
no scope. They group like a fine shotgun. The ones I have shot, did shoot
just not well.
Bravo, if you get an CAR, go with a 16 " light bbl, Vortex or A2
flash hider, The new 4 position Colt Stock (plastic) and A@ sites, no removeable
carry handle crap. This will be a CQB weapon. You will still be able to
mount optics if you think you need them, but nothing will rattle lose like
the removeable handle can. Just my HO.
I must bring up a problem with having a fixed carry handle
The only problem with using a fixed carry handle in conjunction with
optics is the problem of the sighting system being too high to get cheek
weld and still be able to look through the sight.
Now you can add a cheek piece, but that thing is a pain in the ass
to put in and take off because you have to take the stock off in order
to do it.
I have a Eclan and I like the flat top mount, no goofing around with
the stock piece when I go back to iron sights.
Just make sure the mount is tight!
Celer, Silens, Mortalis
Kush out
A day or so ago, I posted a request for help on how to approach what
I'll call the 2nd trimester of my development as a shooter.. the fetal
stages as it were.
Well, it's been s long time since I got to read much less write to
the Roster. I've just been reminded of why this site is soooo damn good.
Pat, Rick, PeteR, Will, MicTac... thank you kindly for your email
responses. It really made my week, not to mention introduced some food
for thought that oughta keep both neurons firing for a while.
Gentlemen, you have my thanks and respect.
Ben:
You mentioned Berger 185's and Varget. I've not tried that combo
yet. I have tried the 185's with 44.5 gr. of VV N550. I don't know what
the velocity is for this combo, but it shot very well from my .308 out
to 1000 yds. Needed 39.0 minutes at near sea level at approx 95 F. These
were molyed bullets. I had thought of starting with 41.5 to 42.0 gr of
Varget with a molyed 185... my 1.5 cents worth.
Rapid-Bolt-Boy-Wannabe from muggy Hotlanta,
Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@BellSouth.COM>
I've just come home after the first trainingsession on a new 100m
moving target range with electronic targets. Point of impact is shown on
a screen in front of the shooter. Whole series of shots are shown with
the latest blinking during shooting. Points are calculated and everything
can be printed out after the series. This is fun and very educational.
I'm trying to get a norwegian company who make electronic targetsystems
to use standard PC hardware. I'd like to see a portable electronic target
who transfers data to a laptop with wireless LAN and tcp/ip as protocol.
The monitor should only be an application running on the PC. I use wireless
LAN in laptops when journalists and photographers are covering large sportsevents.
It works great. Imagine looking at and storing those 600m 5-shots groups
at once. Maybe it even would be possible to hook the chronograph into the
system.
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Wow.
I mean, realy,...wow. Even coming from a a particulary biased newspaper
like the Post, in all of the firearms-related pieces that I have ever read
in print, I dont think I have ever seen one that was so thoroughly devoid
of any *atempt* at even-handed reporting. Give it a gander. It's realy
well below even the Post's normal stardards.
I forget...is the media ranked just above or below used car salesmen
in surveys on credibility? And they wonder why...
-Tom
Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
Mi dos centavos, Al S.
I wouldn't post this on the roster, but it's a one shot deal and
non-profit.
I didn't expect a fair report, so I wasn't surprised... but what
got my ire up, was the comment by the cop (Brian Vice... "Vice??")... who
said that civilians shouldn't be there... what the hell does he think he
is, and what do they do to "Sniper cops" when they retire... give them
a frontal lobotomy, so they can't remember all that "Bad stuff"?
It's Ghestpo jerks like this, that the framers of the Constitution
were most worried about. In 1935 Germany, they called them "Brown Shirts"!
Sorry for the rant... it pisses me off to hear cops talk like power
hungry little gods..
'lito
Fuh-get about it. Just shot a box of win cleans in my .357 that I
used to shoot bull's eye with. For those who aren't familiar, the "WinClean"
is a lighter (125gr I think, forget right this second) bullet, with a "cleaner"
burning powder. Maybe this ammo is uniquely bad, but it smoked so much
as to obscure sight picture for follow up shots (even with white outline
rear and colored front insert), and grouped EIGHT INCHES at 25 yds, from
a rest. This was the single worst ammo experience of my life. The same
gun generally groups about an inch at 25yards, well rested. Can't disclose
what type of gun it is, no-one here respects the brand :).
My question, what does this increase in velocity (assume there actually
isn't one in this winchester ammo) do to the computations that went into
the twist rate anyway????
Anyway, when it comes to ammo, I prefer not to rock the boat, my
inconsistent shooting does enough of that....
dan-o
The only way I know is to have a whole boatload of ammo and nothing
else to do for a LOOONNG time.
And you scoffers doubt their journalistic integrity?
What do P.R. guys say about all publicity being good? Here's hoping
that buisiness is up.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
Excuse my rant, I did delete the "non politically correct" parts:
ED
Now, onto more pressing matters. A 300WinMag Sendero, I nearly forgot
I want to get one of these things. I'm getting to the point where I have
the money for the gun but not for the scope and mounts. I'm not gonna buy
till I have enough to do the whole thing up right, man I hate having a
gun without sights that I can't shoot till I can put glass on it.
I'm looking at buying one of those Tasco 16x SniperScopes(feel free
to talk me into or out of them, I want to hear opinions so feel free to
email me) that are out there as they aren't too much of a blow to the pocket
book. It would allow me to spend more money on the mounts and the base
and reuse them for a first rate scope in the future. My plan is I'll keep
the scope for future rifles and replace the Tasco eventually with a MKIV
when I can afford to get the 16X I really want.
It's gonna be a long range rifle so I'm not too concerned with using
variable power scopes, the 4.5-14LR interests me but I'd rather just have
the 14x as I'm can tell from the shooting I already do that I rarely go
below 10x.
I'm gonna be doin a whole lot of archieve searching over the next
few days it looks like. My main gripe already is the thought of either
having to load or having to buy a bunch of expensive ammo to break the
gun in. Shoppin around today the cheapest ammo for 300Wm was 24 bucks for
some 150grn fodder.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Well, got a hold of 300+ pounds of wheel weights, and I'm in the
process of making them into ingots. What a chore. Once I'm done with that
I'll add 1 pound of 50/50 solder to 9 pounds of wheel weights. According
to Lyman, this produces No.2 alloy. Anyone have other suggestions? I would
like to make linotype, but making it in small amounts is tricky I hear.
Does any one know where to get linotype these days?
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
"Pablito" and "Bravo". Det Brian Vice aint no fucking Nazi and second
of all he can have an opinion like everyone else. If your reading comprehension
were as great as your vocabluary you'll see that he was helping other students
out in the course, including civvies. Having been there during that class,
unlike either of you, I will tell you that Brian was very accepting of
the civvies and enjoyable to teach.
Some of you guys are the first ones to jump up and scream "The Constitution!
The Constitution!" when someone wants to limit YOUR rights or freedoms
but when someone else voices an opinion you label them as a "brown shirt"
or "jackboot thug" or whatever.
Cops can have opinions you know. When they sign their lives away
to protect yours and mine they don't give up thier right to give opinions
as long as they are "off the clock". While some peoples jobs never require
them to get more than a few feet from a computer monitor other guys like
Det Vice are out there in the shit. They have a real possibility of getting
shot at and its understandable that they may not jump for joy about civvies
learning this shit. You'll also notice that he did say that the liklihood
of a civvie using this shit for criminal purposes is "astromically low".
Of course thats your opinion and you're welcome to it. But to label
a guy you've never met a Nazi, brownshirt or whatever is bull shit!
THats my opinion.
OUT
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
The ones I own ( for the A-2 stock and the Colt orig CAR stock) require
the removal of the stock. Now, I rarely use glass on my H-Bar 21" upper
( non removable handle) so the stock piece is not on that often. With my
M-4 upper, I just switch tops between iron sights and the Eclan with no
fussin' around with a cheek piece.
I don't mind the flat-top upper, I have never had a problem with
it loosening up or rattling but I am always willing to try new stuff, who
makes the cheek piece?
Thanks man.
Kush out
Looking around at the Bushmaster web page I found ya a link.
Personally I think these things should be cheaper than they are,
cause they are what they are(whoa, sounds like something a cartoon chap
I know would say).
I know what you mean about swapping uppers, I do it fairly often
also. I'm an optics maniac so I opted for flattops on every variant I have.
I don't have trouble with the carry handle jaring off but it does slide
back about 1/16 inch during recoil. I'm about to do a bit of JB weld bedding
on the bottom of it, put a little recoil lug under there and make it so
it can't slide or back up. My Armalite mounts rely on a recoil lug for
precise locating of the mount in the groves rather than rely on the mounting
screw bolts like my carry handle uses, someone was thinking when they made
that mount.
Cut and paste or click on my name to go to it.
http://www.birdman.org/products/M82pistol.htm
The printing industry is my bag (for about 45 more days, when I start
gread school full-time, woo-hoo! :) and as you are probably aware there
are not a lot of operational hot type machines left. However, I stumbled
into one of the older print shops here in town on business about five years
and found they they did still do a few jobs on letterpresses requiring
hot type. They would call in a retired manager to run the Linotype machine
as needed, perhaps two or three times a year. I contacted him and asked
about any Linotype alloy he had surplus and he set me up with about 900
lbs for something like $0.14 per lb, well below market rate.
So ask around. You never know...
-Tom
Why don't you just heat treat the slugs instead of playing with the
solder? You will get massive increases in Brinell Hardness and won't have
to dick around with the molten lead quite as much.
Read the Komarade katherine grahams Wash COM-Post article on Storm
Mountain last night, THANK GOD I'm living in By-Gawd and not P.R.O.M.(Peoples
Republic of Merry-Land) and bordering "Wonderland". CAN YOU SAY BRAINWASHING?
- CAN YA BOYS AND GIRLS?
Then turned on the boob tube and watched that "poor little scum ball"
getting his just deserts in PA.
Less emotionally put, DON'T BELIEVE THE NEWS! PRAVDA would be happy
if it still existed.
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Thanks for the compliment on my vocabulary... I have some good days,
and some bad days.
Brian Vice may be a hell of a guy at a barbecue, I don't know him...
but I was commenting on his comment...
------------------
"There were only two cops in the class," he notes. "They are not
going to put that school on for two cops. We learned something and took
that back to the law enforcement community. And the odds of the five others
taking that information and doing something illegal are astronomically
low. But in a perfect world, civilians shouldn't be there."
------------------
Well... tell me Gooch, what was it that you taught Brian, that the
rest of us shouldn't know?
What was it that he took back to the law enforcement community...
shooting at 1000yds... LE doesn't shoot at 1000yds, they average about
70yds, and I "think" the record long shot is under 200yds... so what is
it that the rest of the civilian world can't know about shooting.
And what happenes to "Sniper cops" (or ex military snipers) when
they retire with all this "Bad knowledge"... do they get penned up to protect
society, or just get a frontal lobotomy, to remove all that bad stuff,
so the world will be perfect?
Just what is that they learned that justifies "But in a perfect world,
civilians shouldn't be there."??
Now, I read a lot, so my comprehension isn't all that bad... and
it appears that the FBI has the same concerns as Bravo, and I...
Get your reading glasses on and go here...
http://shns.scripps.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=FBI-HOLOCAUST-07-05-00&cat=WW
... and you will find that Louis Freeh (the head of the FBI)... is
taking his boys (and girls) to the holocaust museum to learn what?... to
learn about the behavior of the police in pre-war Germany... the same thing
I was talking about!
ASome partial quotes...
I would think if the FBI is worried, then maybe we all have something
to worry about, when it comes to "Elite cops" or "Elte cop attitudes".
Ask "UnDude" what he thinks about civilians learning all this "Bad
stuff"
You've been "inside" way too long
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I have had lots of press over the years; TV, radio; newspapers, magazines.
They NEVER get it right because they ALWAYS inject some editorializing.
They also are writing about things that most of them know absolutely nothing
about and are being exposed to for the first time so they don't even know
the right questions to ask.
On Cops: Gooch is right in that everyone has an opinion and we, of
all people, should be quick to defend the right of anyone, no matter how
wrong or stupid, to express themselves. I spent a lot of time in Law Enforcement
and have lots of cop friends and deal with lots of cops now as an instructor
or as an expert witness (usually on the other side). In my opinion, most
cops are not the same quality of the officers I worked with when I first
started. The reasons are many and too complex to go into here on this forum,
but most of you can probably figure out some of the reasons. Are they in
danger and do they put their lives on the line? A very few on a very few
occasions do. They are not in a combat zone and the average cop does not
in his entire career face the same physical threat to his safety as an
oil rig worker experiences in one day. The view that they are out there
battling the forces of evil is hype promulgated by the cops themselves
because it is in their rational self-interest to do so. They are street
bureaucrats with guns. I have nothing but respect and admiration for most
of the cops I personally know, but I also have contempt for most that I
don't based on what I see of their actions and the lies I hear them tell
under oath.
As a free people, it is in our individual and collective self-interest
to always be suspicious of ANY agent of the state with enforcement powers.
Remember, if the job were that tough, they wouldn't have high school graduates
with "C" averages doing it.
Strength and Honor,
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Did I hear you right that the guy the Philly cops beat the hell out
of deserved it?
Bravo:
Be careful my man. Way back in the late 80s when I was working a
counter-terrorist LE unit in Arizona, all law enforcement officers were
being told to regard anyone that carried a pocket copy of the US Constitution
or used the word "Constitution" in a contact as a threat. It is very easy
to be labelled as an "extremist" or a "radical" rather the same way that
hard corp religious types are labelled. It allows the sheeple to then dismiss
anything you have to say. How many times, in polite company (I realize
I am making assumptions here) has the issue of the right to keep and bear
arms come up and any pro-gun advocate is labelled as a "paranoid?" Like
racism, once the label is applied no support is needed.
I agree with your zealous defense of the Constitution, but you will
sometimes take shots from unexpected quarters. If our Founding Fathers
had not been "extremists" and "radicals", we would be like our pussy whipped
neighbors to the north, disarmed and paying allegiance to the Union Jack
or worse.
De Oppresso Liber,
Mr Bob Stewart, of the Maadi-Griffin 50 cal fame, lost a needed court
decision yesterday. But most importantly, and listen up, the BATF has the
full customer list that allows the BATF to now arrest and charge each customer
with various crimes.
People who purchased the Maadi-Griffin 50 cal kit are in jeopardy
of being arrested and convicted of these crimes and perhaps others:
Full text of my source:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=293
Your Tasco 16x scope. I have a deputy friend who has one and he has
problems with the thing not keeping true after each shot. The thing moves
about 2 MOA after each shot. He wants a Leupold badly, but he chose the
Tasco on price alone. Maybe this is an isolated problem to his scope. But
just another voice...
One thing I do notice here is that his comments were polite and professionally
made which were responded to with insults and "ED's". Its stuff like this
that makes people look at our community with raised eyebrows, including
the ATF guys that read this site. Hello boys.. Anyway, Brian is a low key
guy, a member of the NRA, the kind of guy that you would like to have a
beer with and trade lies with.
It just torques me that some of you guys would draw a conclusion
on him off of an article that everyone here agrees was tainted, slanted,
skewed etc in the first place. You slam the writer except for what he says
Brian was reported to have said. "This writer is ate up!! Except this part
about the cop that I've never met." Look how he twisted around Rods comments
and used them out of context. "Killer course", Andover for assasins", the
shadow he cast over one students reference letter etc. Come on guys...you
played right into the writers ploy.
"Pablito". Unlike your comment to me this isn't a slam on you, just
some facts. Yes, I've been "on the inside" and am able to understand both
sides of this. You haven't been so you don't. When I teach someone I become
forever attached to that person. When he dies in combat, takes a bad shot,
etc I feel partially responsbile. When they survive a war, save a hostage
etc I feel satisfied. Can you imagine how I would feel if a former student
(cop, military, civvy. It wouldnt matter)used his skills for criminal purposes
and took an innocent life? Personally I would feel like shit and the liability
issues are scarey. And by the way there are a few things, not many, that
I would teach to some people and not to others. Does a "civilian" need
to know how to disable the doors on a greyhound bus or defeat a VIP protection
detail? Uh uh. Any instructor that says otherwise is either a liar or too
mercenary for my tastes.
There are civilians that I won't teach and probably a few cops and
military guys too. I've been on USMC instructional teams (CQB, sniper,
Security Forces, etc) where we removed good Marines out of training for
"problems". Not everyone needs to know this shit just like everyone doesn't
need to be able to own firearms.
Yes, you heard me right!
The scumball was a Carjacker, caused an accident, fled the scene,
started a 41 round shootout with local L-E, then stole a cruiser and involved
most of the responding units in a high speed chase through a couple neighborhoods,
supposedly tried to shoot a cop with a snatched gun, then resisted arrest.
How would you have handled it? ;-)
At least thats what i have heard
Have a Great Weekend!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Gooch is right that the man can have his opinion and that it is no
honor to insult him with name calling for it. It is honor to state that
the statement Mr. Vice made that civilians should not have the same advanced
training given to LE is frightening.
Maybe given the chance Mr. Vice would retract that statement or qualify
it with the fact that cops everywhere have to face armed people bent on
killing them and others, and they don't want them further trained in such
arts as sniping.
Perhaps Mr. Vice is misguided by the media and his brotherhood of
cops, but his statement is still frightening. It is our job to educate
the liberal masses and "elitist" cops, not just bash them and call them
names. 'lito, write the man a letter with your concerns. E-mail even. Need
his address? HE needs to hear your concerns. Not a slam to you, but a serious
statement. We need to ensure LE understands why we have certain concerns
about their actions and statements, and why we want to be armed. LE needs
to know what's up. Maybe, just maybe, LE will listen and cooperate with
us. With all the crap in politics today, LE and civilians need each other's
cooperation more than ever.
As I see LE and our military arm up against ordinary citizens, I
continue to arm up as well. If Mr. Vice doesn't like that, then he should
do what he can to disarm the LE crowd accordingly, and I will disarm too.
An entry team does not to be used in 19 of 20 cases currently deployed.
Even then, why automatic M-16's?
People fear LE because LE arms up, while the LE crowd arms up claiming
they fear civilians who are well armed. No doubt criminals have in the
past used superior firearms and tactics, but to use a SWAT team, now called
SRT, on a pothead with a few plants in his house with no known use of violence
or ownership of a firearm, is outrageous. We see SWAT temas carry out unlawful
orders of the federal government, such as property confiscation that ends
up in the landowners favor in court, but the damage is already done. We
the People see this, and we want to arm ourselves. A totally natural reaction.
A number of LEOs are not rambo wannabees, but rather they like the training
and "toys" they get to play with, but unfortunately, they then must use
them, and on us!
Mr. Vice believes we should not have such training, but, oops, I
already have such training. I got it in the military. Do I get my lobotomy
now that I am a civilian?
Loving America, but concerned for her future.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
First question...
Other than felons, mentally insane, and violent, etc...
"Not everyone needs to know this shit just like everyone doesn't
need to be able to own firearms."
Who decided "WHO" should know this shit, and WHO decides WHO should
be able to own a gun???
The Government, the military, the police, your local "National Organization
for Women" chapter, the DNC... Chuckie Schummer, HCI, and how are they
(who ever "they" are) going to enforce "WHO can know this shit, and who
can have a gun"?
How about registering all longrange shooting schools, like Rod Ryan's,
and James Jarrett's... to control WHO knows this shit, and how about a
national gun registration system to control WHO owns a gun?
And I can hear that guy, Diaz, from the "Center for Violence Policy"...
that same guy that wants to ban 50 cal rifles, and the same guy who "personally"
wants to put Rod Ryan out of business... I can hear him in congress saying...
"Even the police don't think civiliams should be allowed to go to these
schools, and not only that... these 30 caliber "Sniper rifles" can blow
out a mans brains at a mile, and should be banned, like the 50 caliber
rifles... after all these are nothing but weapons of war."
My second question is...
"There are civilians that I won't teach..."
Well, how'd a reporter from the Washington Post slip past that nose
of yours... these guys can't hit poop with a roll of toilet paper... how'd
he get into a Counter-Sniper course. I've had reporters come to me on stuff...
and by the third sentence, they were "busted"... so what happend?
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
James,
At some point people will realize it sayy "We the people" at the
top of the Constitution, not "You the government". We are in danger of
losing something that we are the rightful owners of. Not our guns (although
we will lose them too) but our government. The military is responsible
for external security of our nation. Internal security is the job of the
citizenry. We are supposed to protect ourselves and our neighbors. If we
want to stay free we better protect ourselves and OUR government. The right
to keep and bear arms is necessary to the security of a free state.
James, Mike and our other instructors,
Now back to shooting.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
But this isn’t about his opinion, it’s about his reported philosophy.
I’ll admit that I’m a bit of a “leftist” in some areas. Like I believe
we need a standing Army, something that the founding fathers didn’t want.
If there were no standing Army, Rod’s courses would be morally mandated
for the masses, for the preservation of our national soverignty. Law enforcement,
military, and civilians all one. And let us not forget, if the police (citizens
in law enforcement) are trained (and become) as a branch of the military,
then by default, you’ve got “para-military” personnel patrolling the streets.
That’s virtually martial law. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-cop, or
anti- most ANYONE taking these classes, as long as they’re honest and law
abiding. That's the real cincher, we're not against people learning this,
we just don't want it in the wrong hands. I say that the current filters
are in place and doing well, nothing more is needed. When America sees
incidences of "head shots at a mile" by criminals,
James: uh-oh. I've got my pocket Constitution at home, got one for
the wife and boy too. If that's the qualification for "radical", I'll accept
you calling me that and wear it as a badge of honor. Thanks for the advice,
very true. Never thought I would take shots from quarters I think of as
e-home. At least nobody can call me racist, I voted for the only candidate
that was a strict Constitutionalist!
The Constitution does NOT grant us ANY rights. It merely enumerates
and clarifies our "God given" rights. We as citizens, through contract,
authorize individuals to act in our behalf in certain areas. Thus policemen.
Now, if a policeman (and government in general) gets it's authority from
the citizenry, how can he have more authority than than the citizen that
gave that authority?
And all stemming from a newsreport in a notoriously anti-gun publication.
Talk about effective firing. Frankly, I am disgusted with those of you
who went off half cocked. Must be a lack of sleep, or C2H5OH poisoning.
At least the most recent posts are more curteous.
From the general tone of the article, I would guess that the quotes
were carefully selected by the reporter. Based on the article, Fitzpatrick
may not be the best person for a sniper position and Vice may have had
a bit of an elitist attitude. I cannot say anything further about either
without meeting or talking to them.
As far as knowledge which is restricted, the decisions Gooch makes
are based on his personal observations. There are people I wouldn't trust
with the knowledge of which end the bullet comes out of. I am comfortable
with the idea that that kind of specialist knowledge is not routinely taught,
as I am with the idea that much more useful knowledge such as how to shoot
accurately out to 1200 yards at unknown distances is taught freely. The
key point is that the restrictions are imposed personally, not institutionally.
The most dangerous weapon in existence is the one between your ears, and
nobody has yet figured out a reliable method of disarming that. (while
keeping the body functional, that is. A 168 Match King at 2500 doesn't
count.)
Besides, I know how to disable a Greyhound bus's doors (Use a big
hammer) and how to defeat a VIP detail (Use a bigger hammer, as appropriate).
I don't have access to the equipment required or the details, so I couldn't
do it in practice.
Anyway, settle down and stop bitching at each other, would you.
Karl
"Some of these cars today have really extreme windshield angles(Firebird
and Camaro come to mind) and this might be a concern"
You are a Marine and are worried about shooting through American
made car windshields? How many countries that Marines may be stationed
have Amercian firebirds? Where in America should a Marine be concerned
about operations?
You can guess at my point. This dovetails into the recent conversations
about Americans distrusting LE and military.
Sorry, gave mine to an officer. He had skipped that part of his indoctrination.
(haha) (Just kidding. I love officers. They distract fire away from me!)
I will lead by example.
A quote from a LE suggesting that in a perfect world, civvies would
be prohibited from attending Storm...this concerns me.
I don't know what a perfect world is...but in the real world, I think
this discussion is a simple extension of what our founding fathers were
thinking when they wrote the 2nd amendment...
Civvies are the constituency for which LE, government and the military
exist....they ARE entitled to be able to EFFECTIVELY protect their country...that
includes training.
my opinion...
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
I don't think it would take a boatload of ammo to do this. I don't
think it would take a very long time either.
I found a web-based balistic calculator at http://www.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html
it seems pretty versatile. What do you experts think?
According to my calculations, If you could deploy 55 serious riflemen,
each one capable of holding no worse than a 2 MOA group at 1 mile distance,
and they all had the right dope on their sights, if they all fired at the
same time, chances are that one of them would get the job done with one
shot.
If their rifles could hold only a 3 MOA group at 1 mile distance,
it would take 123 riflemen to do the same job.
Try working the problem this way, assume a 5 inch target area. What
do you come up with?
There is nothing strange or unusual about these kind of tactics.
They are widely taught in Law Enforcement, at least at the ELITE level.
Take the recent Philly incident as an example.
How did the reporter get by? If I remember right Rod knew he was
a reporter. The decision to let him attend was above my pay grade.
Guys I have no problem with every swinging dick in this country that
is a law abiding citizen knowing how to hit a target at whatever distance,
including "heads at over a mile". I have no problem with any law abiding
person having the ability to defend, home, state, country etc. I have a
problem with the LE agencies exceding their limits. I do place restrictions
on what should be taught in certain types of training.
Would you have the launch codes to our ICBM's made public knowledge?
Okay that's extreme, how about all of the locations of every agent the
DEA has in the field? Lets publish the operational techniques of every
CT unit our country has and make shooting through glass a 4H project. Come
on. No one is saying that Joe Citizen doesn't have the right to learn to
use firearms. Like was said here already there are plenty of guys running
around with this info in thier brain housing group already. Some stuff
is just sensitive and shouldn't be out there for every Dylan Klebold and
Eric Harris that are floating around out there. How come you guys aren't
thrashing Scott, Marius and Ken for not wanting "Minors and Militants"
on this website? Same concept bucaroo!
Pablito, Bravo you guys may be the most upstanding dudes in the world
but there are people out there that would use schools like SMTC, ASA, Gunsite,
etc to further their criminal careers. Thats why trainers want background
info and some people get nervous regarding civilians attending some of
these schools. I've trained and been involved in training of thousands
of people to shoot, stab, and kill in every way imaginable and not everyone
of them would be welcome on my doorstep at zero-dark-thirty. Some were
just wierd.
I didn't think I changed the subject. You guys were torching a cop
for making a statment and I was trying to explain why he may have said
what he said.
Scuuuuze meeeee.
Out
My soapbox is back in the corner and will stay there until further
need arrises.
Pablito, Bravo... I love you guys!!!!
Out
Steve: getting 55 soldiers to chow at the same time is hard enough.
Firing all at once? HA!
Shooting at Cameros? Well, possibly. Not if they’re doing well over
160 though. Oh, we’re talking Cameros ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Would be an interesting shot, my personal ballistician( whom I have
consulted on this very issue assures me it can be done!).
All you have to do is, (1)- Adjust your sooper dooper snapper scope,
in 1/4" moa cliks of course, to an elevation of a bullet path of a mere
161.47'of drop, then once this small feat is accomplished, if you got a
10 mph 3-9 wind, you just(2) non chalantly dial in again w/ your sooper
dooper, 28.06' of R/L windage.
See nuthin to it!!!!!!!all this takes place in approx 3.799 seconds
(enough time for BRAVO 7.62, to swig one of his now famous BREWSKI's).
Ah!!!!, American entremanureship, ain't it grand!!!!, wonder if we
could set up a demonstration, and let the reporter do the honors w/ the
all to easy BRAIN shot @ 1,760 yards??........
Where's Gen'l Patton when we really need him!!!!!!!.
As an Employer of mine once said at a company party.
here's the particulars.
I'm getting flip up sights, front and rear, as well as a free float
tube. Its a 16" postban M4 with muzzlebreak. I got a QD ARMS 19 coming,
and I'll probably get a swan sleeve to help out with eye relief. I'm thinking
a low fixed power, and I've only got about $3-400 to spend.
I'm looking at two scopes (1) Leupold M8 6 x 42 in matte with target
knobs, and (2) AMT Professional 5 X 33 with lighted reticle.
I know enough about the Leupold - what I'm really looking for is
info / evaluations of the AMT, particularly the reticle.
Any help you can provide with either of these scopes, or other suggestions
is appreciated
Please e-mail me at bbrawlers@home.com
Marko <bbrawlers@home.com>
Sure, a brain shot at a mile is when you have a 2 value cross wind...
further without cross wind... and we can sneek up on a 'yote (a real one)
and pull his tail... and I ain't pulling your tail ;)
Gooch, the first round in Sept, is on Me and Bravo... Brian Vice
left a phone message on my machine, and I'll probably talk to him this
weekend...
'lito
Hmmmm... I hit "submit" but nothing happened, and half the Roster
is missing... MARIUS!!! STOP FOOLIN' AROUND...
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I owe you a apoligy... well a partial one anyway.
I just got off the phone with Brian Vice.
He said that he saw the piece by the Washington Post, and it was
all bulls**t, and he didn't say the quoted piece at the end... so I owe
you two cold ones.
I also retract my comment about your "nose"! The Post was invited
from up top, and didn't sneak in.
But I will stand on my opinion of ANY LE or military, that think
that the rest of society should have limited access to guns and knowledge
about them...
'lito
Marius... stop foolin with the Roster. We're loosin' history here.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Pablito, I did not allow the POST to do any article. The guy paid
for the course just like everyone else. He said he wanted to do an article
for LIFE magazine and he was not anti-gun. So my big mistake was trusting
someone. The story is bullshit. The main person talked about in the article
failed due to a bad attitude and he couldnt shoot.
We had one of our dark green instructors come to us on day one and
told of this guys questioning him about anti-gun, racisum, and some other
crap we felt did not fit into the intrests of a pro gun, pro freedom writer,
so we gave the guy false info about everything from my shoe size to what
color I crap each day. The joke is on him.
He got to talk to one individual for an extended amount of time because
that individual choose to spill his guts when offsite. The guy was wined
and dined and felt that he would be a hero by giving the rambo BS. Everyone
else just wanted to train. What the article did not tell was the dedication
and motivation of the students who passed the course. Who they were and
why they were there. The course had LE officers, soldiers, and professinals
from many career fields. Some wanted to hone their hunting skills, some
needed the course due to their profession, some wanted the challenge.
All who passed the course did so because they kept their head out
of their third point of contact and did what they were taught when they
needed to.
Now the good news...all press is good press. I have sold 32 course
slots to next years sniper and carbine courses from people who read the
article.
Rod Ryan
Posted a long un to Mr. WILD BILL ROGERS,and it didn't even show
up..................now half the roster is gone, you guys shouldn't have
talked about Big Bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THen the little thread grew and grew, fueled by tempers on both sides
of the argument. "ED's" flew, attacks started to get personal, it began
to bring back memories of the days of Rusty Thailor. Then the facts began
to form and started to confuse the issues.
Finally the oracle from atop Storm Mountain calmed the thread with
facts from ground zero and now everyone watches as the thread takes its
final breaths. It struggles to rejuvenate(?) itself, it reaches for more
facts to distort yet, nay, it cannot regain life! So it slips peaceably
into the darkness...its strength ebbing, its aura fading, its shit stinking.
Do not worry little thread. You will be reborn in an other form!
There are other turds to polish! Your spirit will prevail!!
Damn its late. Midnight shifts suck. I'm out of here.
Rod: I'm truly glad to hear that the press had the exact opposite
effect I was anticipating. What a fetid, putrid piece of syphletic monkey
vomit that "reporter" must be. Not only to purposefully outright LIE to
you the way it did (infiltration?), but also to print those lies, misquote
people left and right, and in the case of Vice, obviously fabricate what
it thought would fit its agenda. This is nothing short of infuriating.
Not that I trust the press, and I KNEW the stuff about your school was
false, but that was one step too far. I liken it to quoting someone confessing
child molestation falsely.
Steve/Nato, enough cracks about "Ellte Cops" why dont you join and
show us how it is done? I missed the humor Gooch found in your post.
Rod, the Post will get none of my money. Glad to hear you are selling
more slots because of the dweeb.
Jim Mitchell, I agree LE/Government exists "By the People, for the
people". Now when the public explains that to Washington, we may get the
country back. Problem is so few have balls enough to say it anymore. Sheep
we are surrounded by Sheep and not the ones Pete likes so much. Seems like
most people want government to solve all their problems. Not me and not
anyone on here.
Gooch way to be a stand up guy. Too many jump on a guy before they
have all the facts.
Anyone that reads a paper or hears a news article and thinks they
have all the facts smash your head in a solid core door until thoughts
come out.
Undude
Marko, have you thought of a 1.5 - 5x Matte Leupold Vari-X III for
the CAR? Premier Reticle in Virginia (go to the Sniper Country Links).
Bravo: Watch out with a longer sun shade tube. Remember that as the
tube gets longer LESS LIGHT COMES IN THE OBJECTIVE LENS. Where will this
bite you dead in the ass? Try early morning, and in the evening as your
light begins to fade. Benchresters have long mirage tubes usually made
out of clear or white plastic to cut down mirage coming off the barrel,
but light still comes in thru the tube material (this from guys who normally
shoot 24, 32, and higher magnification scopes. You could try a mirage strip
over the handguard and barrel (usually just a strip of fabric). Also, if
you jamb your tube against something, you risk the chance of: twisting
the scope in the rings; bending the front bell of the scope; breaking off
the mirage tube.
That fella that stole the car in Philly, shot a cop, stole a marked
patrol car, and got beat up ought to fell lucky the cop he shot didn't
die, and he only got lumped up. If he had shot AND KILLED one of my buddies
he'd have been toast. I believe those human cops showed remarkable restraint.
Any of you not in uniform remember when Somalis dragged the body
of a United States Army Task Force Ranger soldier thru the streets of Mogadishu,
played on CNN? Now think of someone trying that with one of your family,
closest friends, or colleagues.
There's a story that was in the American Rifleman where a guy driving
on the highway watches as a knucklehead that got pulled over shoots the
cop dead. The (armed) Good Samaritan gets out with his deer rifle and kills
the bastard on the spot. The cops and NRA commend and decorate him, and
the liberals want him crucified.
Guess whose side that civilian with the deer rifle was on?
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Gooch raises an old and interesting question: where do we draw the
line on RKBA? His ICBM launch code scenario is obviously extreem. Clearly
the founing fathers did not intend for us to start and prosecute nuclear
wars and take out entire cities. So just where do we draw that line?
I think it would be one consistent with the mission of the unorganized
militia as the founding fathers saw it, projected into modern times. That
would be arms compatible with a mission focused on local defense and, potentialy,
resistance to a tyranical central authority. Given the logistical, training
and other limitations of such a formation, it would not logicaly include
crew-served weapons, weapons of mass destruction or any weapon systems
that require frequent upper-echelon repair or maintnence. Such weapons
should be capable of putting out a reasonable amount of firepower but consistant
with militia training and logistical capabilities. In other words, semiauto
but not full-auto: its just not useful enough for this mission to bother
with.
Oh, and sniper/tactical/target/large-bore varmint rifles most certainly
do fall under that umbrella. Moreso that most other things, I feel.
Comments?
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
If memory serves me correctly, as is sometimes not the case (Sometimers),
at my age,I believe we were discussing the reporter and his report about
cranial vault hits at one mile.( just a measley 1760yds).
This with a .308 Win, Bill, I said it can be done!!!!.....
See how easy!!!!!!, man I know tons of people who can do that it's
so easy!!!,don't you??
I vote we get the L D reporter out to the range and hand him A RIFFLE,
and let him show us how it's done, after all he took the class didn't he??,
that ought to make him a SPURT.
Seriously, Washington Post????......Guys we no no good thing comes
from the D O C in the way of public domain newspapers, or for that matter,
much of anything else that comes to mind...........
Got to go, got to go practice those 1 mile shots w/ my ADL .308,
from Wul-Murt..........Terry(tshoes).Undude Mr. Miller, sorry your heading
to Az, coulda used you in Texas!!!
Hey? Maybe my local ATF or FBI agent drives a Camaro?(Bad joke, hopefully)
And in this wonderful world of multinational corporations, they just stick
a new badge on it and sell it overseas. Riceburners also have some pretty
agressive windshield angles,the 3000GT and some others come to mind. And
there's always the Italian stuff. It's just theoretical right now, have
no worries about my loyalties. "Preserve and defend the Constitution against
all enemies foreign and domestic" is rather important to me and anyone
that is in my platoon. Worry about the general officer corps, the enlisted
guys(especially the NCO's and even the company grade officers) know what's
up. BTW your militia guys are going to need defensive AT weapons also,
try taking on tanks with rifles, it's tough. Also Mr Vice has a tank, as
in AFV? Then it would be an M4-A3 Sherman, right? Semper Fi...Ken M
"The unarmed man is not just defenseless - he is also contemptible."
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
Building public opinion for their cause is a necessary
ROD.... I fully understand the need for a business to make a profit
Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Hope I don't have to intervene on the Roster again - twice in one
week is enough!
I've also archived while I had the chance, but kept it bigger than
normal to give everybody time to read again what was missed. Hope this
helps.
Pete, you liked the blue wildebeest biltong? We're busy eating the
springbok and gemsbok now :-)
Marius
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Yours for better LE,
So you are saying that the printed quote from you that civilians
should not be taught the art of sniping is either incorrect or taken out
of context? No hostility here, but my concern is that many officers have
made such statements and that goes against my instincts to trust such people.
Gooch and others trust you very much, and I would like to know that they
are correct.
Sincerly and thanx,
If the laws change, I guess I'll start teaching long range hunting,
bird watching, photography...the list goes on, the skills are the same.
I do provide contract training to the LE and Military. The truth
is that there is not enough money in it to pay the bills. The "civilian"
side makes up most of my companies income. I have been scorned and ridiculed
for the last four years from some in the LE community for providing this
evil training. So what, they dont pay the bills, you guys do.
See you in Sept. for the SNIPER Competition.
Rod Ryan
Past history, has always proven to me that when you ask a guy to
defend a statement that he made and all you get for an answer is insults
and threats it is a pretty safe bet that he does not know what he is talking
about. But I guess there is an exception to every rule.
I am still willing to hear an explanation on how you come up with
a 3 to 4 minute difference between a 1moa shooter + 1 moa rifle, and a
1/2 minute rifle + 1 moa shooter.
My last post was not directed at you or anyone else. That you would
take offense from this only adds to the weight of evidence that you might
have a little attitude problem.
To GOOCH: You sir, are a Prophet.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
Dave: I was going to go 6" to 8" MAX for the sun shade, is that TOO
much? I'm not wanting a mirage tube as much as a good "anti-glint" tube.
Thought about a 4" tube, just figured it would be easier to cut some off
than to add it on later. Suggestions on length?
Tom Simpson: where we draw the line. The supreme court drew the line
for us in US vs Miller. You have the right to a M-16A2 and a Beretta M9
specifically. More liberally, you have the right to anything you can illustrate
is in common stock in any national service. Currently, it's being upheld
that a doctors Beretta 92F was included (same as the M9) and of course
M-25's are covered ;-) As for the founding fathers, the idea was that INDIVIDUALS
owned arms, townships or cities owned cannons. Where the line gets grey
would be something like a LAW rocket or 203. I don't want one, but the
case could be made that it's a personal weapon so.....
Mr. Vice: you've got my most sincere apologies about my assasination
of your character. Unfortunately, I was lead a-stray by my beleif in somewhat
moral institutions and the better nature of man. Won't happen again, and
I look forward to hearing how you personally ROAST the opposition. If you're
looking for an alliance, I'm more than glad to help in your endeavours
however you might see possible.
Rod: this is extremely welcome news! The only bad side to this is
the problem of inflexibility with my current employer. Basically, I've
got my choice of next year's Storm retreat or CQB with James (not enough
vacation time). I feel truly LUCKY to be in a such a country, and enjoy
the company of such patriots, that I have this kind of problem. Much akin
to questioning if I should drive the Ferarri or the Lotus ;-)
Stevie: ah, our local comic relief. Yes, Mike is an elite officer,
only the elite could bang a gong at 850 like that with a no-scoped CAR.
Care to give it a try? From personal experience, Mike is nothing like you
characterize him. And you should be nice to him, he's old, frail, and uses
a walker due to too many surgeries. He's an excellent teacher, and was
extremely good to us "civvies", showing none of your referenced "elitist
attitude". It's out there, but not in this one.
well, must be off to smash my head in a solid core door until thoughts
come out, (note I've said NOTHING about the Philly cops, learned my lesson!)
and then try my hand at a Irish red ale.
That is pretty much what I had in mind: parhaps the LAWs and SAWs
can be held in a central armory. :) BTW, I rather doubt that an original
intent argument in favor of the 2nd would, could or should be limited to
those models actualy in the inventory. I'm pretty sure that there was no
decent system of standardisation in the Continental Army at that time.
Militiamen of the 19th century at least were typicaly equipped with either
second-line and-or obsolecent equipment (and not enough of it) or self-equipped,
often with better gear than the regular Army. I think Miller said something
about being "suitable for militia service", not identical to the general
issue arm.
My comment on semi-auto vs. full auto was not based on the idea that
somehow full-auto or burst arms arent covered by the 2nd but rather the
practical notion that select fire is simply not very useful for the mission
at hand. If the USMC can get by with as little full auto training as they
do then I figure we can as well. I further figure that a militiaman has
more in common with a Marine than a soldier anyway: fighting come-as-you-are
battles with whatever ammo you have on you plus whatever might be in that
stubby little logistical tail the Corps tries to provide. I think I see
why the Corps is so parsimonious with ammo: they have fought a few battles
where no more would be coming for awhile, ie Guadacanal. We should have
the same mindset.
Al Simon:
I know what they want. All I can say to them is, good luck. They'll
need it.
-Tom
Me I'm just a cop not an elitist, just another one that has put in
his time. Many more just like me out there, just most would go away and
not put up with your lack of true knowledge. I just will not let some guy
badmouth a bunch who has only read about things. Gooch, Rod or a host of
others on here can tell me I am wrong and I will take a long look, but
you are so wrapped up with numbers you forget that shooting is what all
this is about. Dont worry about who thinks what is the way to measure a
group, what matters is being able to shoot. Most of that is learned after
the basic instruction one gets. Trigger time and learning while you snap
the caps is everything. Just because a man does not agree with you does
not make him an enemy, but this elitist thing about cops is a great way
to get one.
Last time we went down this road you stayed away for awhile and never
answered me on the put up or shut up. You can leave this alone or take
it to the next level. I wont back down from you. Stop the cop bashing and
leave me alone and I will do the same. You think you can do better get
a badge and show us.
Detective Vice, good to have you on here. Sorry the press f'd you
but everytime a cop talks to, near them, or they hear of you talking sometime
they misquote you.
Bravo, you see the oil can for my walker anywhere?
I work very hard at a regular job, make very good money in the private
sector.
I have never been arrested for anything in my life, nor have I ever
had as much as a misdemeanor charge brought against me.
I have passed an FBI background check, am a CCP holder, for 6 years
now.
I shoot on a regular basis, and am as patriotic as they come.
All this said to say this: If those of you who have the expertise
to teach and train, people like myself, the skills required to be productive
and an asset to our country in time of war, civil unrest, protection of
our homes and families, then where pray tell do we get it?
All of us know the Police are NOT responsible for our protection,
as the Supreme court has already ruled, so that leaves ME/US with the burden
of protecting ourselves and families.
If every man in this country would take it upon themselves, to participate
in your classes and learn basic shooting skills/ marksmanship, we wouldn't
have to be having these discussions about who/ what/where/ and when SOMEONE
is going to come and put us under the IRON FIST of Tyranny, and destroy
what so many have already died for...........
I again thank you, and all others on this DR that don't feel "SUPERIOR",
or are afraid to teach those CIVI's like myself the art of the rifle, and
or CQC. as Gooch made mention, liability, it is a serious issue, but you
can certainly screen people, and get the percentages in YOUR favor.
Stop and think about this, IF you don't teach US, then who will?.
WE are on your side!..........fwiworth....terry.
I hated math in school. I was only mildly interested in trig. Shooting
long range is the only real use I have ever found for all those boring
classes in highschool and college. That is what shooting is for me. Just
Noisy Trigonometry.
To CDC: There really is a formula that will give the numbers that
I mentioned in the answer to the long range problem. It is no more difficult
to use than trying to figure out how many shingles you need to cover the
roof of your house. I don't know how accurate it is. I am willing to bet
that the Bayes formula is much better. I was sincere when I asked if you
would mind giving your estimations on this problem. Just to compare notes.
Forget the tree diagram, I will take your word for it.
Since it came up, if an armed civie happens upon a LEO stuck betwen
a rock and a hard place, maybe even rounds being fired, how should said
civie approach and help without:
It is a given, that if possible you would call 911 or whatever number
is required to call for help and pass on the sitrep. Probably tell them
that you were attempting to help.
What about the post incident stuff. Expect to arrested, be held for
questioning, or provide statement and ID, and expect to go "downtown" at
a later date to give full deposition.
I can't see passing by, and not helping as much as possible. While
a call for help is a minimun, personal intervention may still be needed
to avoid tragedy.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
We all know various antigun factions monitor this and other shooting
related sites. Also some government agencys do the same thing.
My point is your both are probably stand up guys, who have for months
been caught up in an escalateing battle of words. I know you're both men
of honor, otherwise you wouldn't be on this site to start with. So lets
all be men and admit we all were wrong about some things (me too for posting
this) and unite once again in our quest for and to share knowledge with
each other.
The real enemy is still lurking out there, patiently waiting, so
lets give them as little fuel as possible.
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
I think you need to move the dates of your CQB course, so Bravo can
come to Storm... and that includes you... Grab your best stick, and come
to Storm also... I think it used to be a horse ranch before Rod got there,
so you'll feel right at home... brews on me.
Steve (hockeypuck)...
In NYC, you will be arrested, and proscuted, unless the cop in trouble,
says "Thanks for the help, now get the hell outta here!"
Maas Ayube, noted LE, handgun instructor, and shooting incident court
expert, says never talk to the police until 24 hours has passed, and your
"post trama shock" has passed... and that prety much applies to LE also...
shut up until your brains get back in gear... what you say right after
a shooting, no matter how rightious the shooting, may come back at the
worst time, and "Bite" you... remember Bernie Goetz.
Stevie (Nato@notsobright)...
Glad you're back after your nappie. You have been whining for ever
about show you the numbers. I'm putting together a bunch of stuff for Leupold,
and it includes lotsa of pretty color graphs and stuff that's EASY to understand...
and it'll be ready in about 2 weeks... I invited you to send me your snail-mail
address so I could send some of it to you... but haven't heard doodly-squat
from you. Have you decided you don't want to see the numbers... maybe it's
more fun to stay in the dark and whine!
We all know you don't drink Cool-aid... at least, so you say... but
how about lemonaid... are those lemonaid stains on your pants and sneakers,
or the stains from.. uh.. the other stuff??
PeteR, UnDude, Bravo, and a slew of others, including myself, want
to see you shoot something besides your mouth, so this year, when you drive
400 miles to Storm... don't forget the little bullets like you did last
year.. (they're little brass things that go in the the gun)... bring the
price of admission, and bring the pink-slip to your '03-A4...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Mr Vice,
Bravo,
I believe the rule for glint reflection is a minimum of twice the
length of the Objective lens diameter. My FWIW feelings are get an ARD,
or use a bit of netting or panty hose. over the front end.
Steve,
And by the way,
ARE YOU SHOOTING at The Sniper Rendezvous?,
MANY inquiring minds want to know, or see you shoot, maybe even a
little side event with Mike, or 'Lito?
Me, I can't shoot anywhere near as good as most of the guys there
last year, and I WILL still be there to learn and try my best at bettering
my abilities.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Hey guys- how's that for proof of my elitist attitude!
The very reason the country needs a trained citizenry familiar with
the service and long-range rifle is to teach the huge number of untrained
men who would be mobilized for a war. Lots of people never thought we would
need that kind of tactical and technical expertise. Think of the need that
suddenly appeared on Monday morning, December 8, 1941.
That's why we have a Director of Civilian Marksmanship, the Civilian
Marksmanship Program, and National Matches.
A citizenry trained for CQB? Hmmmm. As G. Gordon Liddy said about
the BATF, "Black fatigues and MP5s do not make you the the SAS." How about
becoming an auxiliary po-lice or sheriff's deputy?
I don't think any cop taking fire and casualties will ever turn down
a citizen's offer of help. I guess it's one of those questions of right
and wrong. Do you stand up and be counted, or go thru the Rolodex looking
for your lawyer's number before you make a choice?
Things are simpler in the states where I grew up. Maybe not in New
York, Jersey, or DC.
Well, he's a recognized as an "Expert witness" in shooting events
(LE and civilian) in every court jurisdiction in the country, so in spite
of some "holes", his advice about not talking to anyone (except your lawyer)
for at least 24 hours is standard for most police officers involved in
a shooting.
Good morning "Sinister" Dave...
I got the cloth you sent, thank you.
To training... back in the 40' when we needed riflemen in a hurry...
the slack was taken up be high school shooting ranges... and at the time,
most EVER high school in the country (even in New Yawk City) had a shooting
team, and a range in the basement.
Now they want to ban wooden guns from the JROTC, under some stupid
"zero violence tolerance" policy... it goes along with the "Bang, bang,
you're dead" training the English military is getting.
Sadly, I don't think this country could fair very well, in a serious,
long term ground engagement again... we throw "smart" bombs at them (but
now Billy-boy has used up most of them), but the jungles of the South Pacific,
or the Ardennes forest... I don't think we'd do to well.
Thanks to Clinton, Bradey, Schummer, and the rest, if it ever hits
the fan again, we may be forced to use nukes, cuz we have no broad mid-level
combat deterrent
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Guys, TRGT is pondering expanding its product line in the future.
Right now we are looking at steps that will improve customer service (changing
the website over to another ISP, getting a secure server for credit cards,
reducing the time it takes to get product out, etc) and inline with this
will be a review of our product line. If you reprobates have any ideas
let me know via private email. We will keep focused on precision tactical
rifle shooting. THings we are looking at would be scope care products,
bipods, maybe some camouflage products... who knows. In other words..."What
are you having a hard time finding?"
Out
After reading that dude's article in the washington compost - that
made me just want to train harder and learn more about the sniping skillset.
As a matter of fact - just for the benefit of that journalist - I will
run an extra mile and spend extra time snapping in.
Kent - and others: Send an announcement to
Enjoy!
Ken :)
Mike: thought you used high tech moly lube on the walker ;-)
Hockeyref: You're a hoot! Wouldn't be if it weren't absolutely true.
There's a roast going as we speak (overnight!), but I'm down to "company
brew". Barely enough to make it until the next batch comes out. But seriously,
in my state, I'm covered legally 100% if I stop to help a cop (via chief
of police, handed me a copy of the law). Now, if I saw a BLUE UNIFORM taking
fire, I'd help out from whatever vantage I could. Not so on civvie actions!
My father, while driving to work (he drives back roads, F-M roads) watched
a man and woman open fire. Can't recall now which was shooting at the other.
Well, he COULD have jumped out and popped "the bad guy", but didn't KNOW
which one was in the right. Shooting in self defense, or murder? So he
gets to the nearest phone, dials 911. The police came out there, figured
it out, (ready to rock on them) and the MOVIE CREW in the field that he
DIDN'T see had a permit! This story gave me real cause to think. Unless
it's something that I witness, or I know a participant WELL, I'm gonna
let the police take care of it. They're trained for such. As for the blue
uniform though, I'd help if I could, and I fear no legal retribution (in
my state, I can legally defend others who's "life is in peril" without
retribution also).
'Lito: racing for pink slips? LONG time since I've done that! Sign
me up too.
Thanks PeteR, I figured it was about that, so a 4" would be fine
(2" diameter, well, 1.96...) Truth to tell, I'm as worried about the ARD
degrading dawn/dusk light as the longer tube. But it wouldn't have the
sewer pipe effect.... Maybe just a veil like Mike had on this 2.5". For
those of you that HAVE NOT tried a veil, that was like night and day! I
wouldn't have beleived it if I'd not experienced it first hand!
Dave: right on! That's the DCM in a nut shell! AND IT WORKS! As for
G. Gordon, I've read every book he's written, and they're ALL great. No
matter what anyone of you think on the man, you have to admit that he's
a real stand up character!
Mr. Gooch: Good deal with TRGT! As for me, how about some of those
nifty textured US GI spray paint cans? And of course a 4+ inch sunshade
for the Lupita Mark 4's ;-) Done business with Hugo out before and will
again in a heartbeat. You guys make a GREAT logbook!
Stevie: great comic releif. I'm just trying to figure out who's sidekick
you are. You're not quite Gabby Hayes, but keep working on it.
I think the whole DR is tired of Steve and I throwing punches, I
know I am. I throw the gloves down as of now. Steve, why dont we do our
talking via email. You said you have nothing to prove and I have no interests
in a war of words. Not my thing. I am sure 20 years in the butts taught
you someting, just like 20 behind the rifle taught me a few things. Lets
leave it at that.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Steve: Mike is a first rate instructor, a spectacular shot, and a
sitting duck in a debate over technical trivia. Getting in a flame fight
over nothing makes us look childish. Holding a grudge over one makes the
holder look weak.
On the multiple firer problem: Addition of probabilities from Stat
101. But it won't work at a mile. There are too many other variables, many
of which are dynamic.
On the training the civies issue, I would like to applaud Rod Ryan
and SMTC for having the guts and intestinal fortitude to help providing
us guys that really are interested in learning the "skill" of long range
shooting and not just how to shoot, a place to do so. I called and left
a message at another training center on the coast, name not mentioned,
and asked why their competition wasn't open to the civies. Needless to
say I haven't even had a return phone call.
My two job schedule really looks bad for coming to the Redezvous
this year. Not only that, the SORT team that I am on is first call-out
during the month of September for Hurricanes and other disaster shit, and
I have picked up responsibility for Supervising the Hazmat Decon team at
the hospital. Whether I can be there or not, you can bet your anus I'm
somehow going to scrape up enough money to at least donate my entry fee.
I will do all I can to support those that support us; SMTC, TRGT, the PX
and several others.
On the issue of the constant flaming going on lately, what can I
say? Nothing! It happens on every message board I visit so I have learned
just to ignore it and consider the sources. Most of the time they will
just go away if you don't feed them.
As the Goochman says,
An the FAL issues, I searched the FAL sites and am as confused as
ever on the quality of the various makers. Anyone that owns one that has
provided good service please email me.
Bolt <reeldoctor@miondspring.com>
Another datapoint: after precisely zeroing my PSS (from Hell (tm))
at 100 yards with a handload of ACC2520 and 168 MKs at 2650 FPS, I fell
back to the 500 yard line and shot a three shot group, which all struck
in a 1 MOA group about 1/2 MOA overpoint of aim. This was after comoing
up 12 MOA, which is the 500 yard setting on the .30-06 dial. In other words,
it seems to be tracking 168s pretty danged well, at least on 90+ degree
days. That was pretty neat. Are we getting to the point where we can say
that the .30-06 dial is the way to go for our .308 loads on yard ranges?
Seems to be the better compromise from what I can tell.
Mike and civvies helping out cops:
I like to think of myself as being a pretty standup citizen. One
of the ways I act on this is I always eyeball cops and cop cars pretty
hard when I spot one on duty, as when doing a traffic stop. I want to try
to make sure that all is going well for both the officer and the citizen
infvolved. I've known good cops and a couple of duds, too. The former,
I am their best friend, the latter, their worst enemy. The former I will
do what I can to bail out of a jam, the latter I will volunteer testimony
against. Thats just the way that it is, and should be.
However, given the stats on the number of bad cops vs. the number
of bad guys on the streets, I am realy more concerned for the officers
wellbeing.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Jeremy Darnell <mercenary848@aol.com>
Hugh <feudist@AOL.com>
Glad you're coming to Storm in Sept... we gotta a lotta lies to catch
up on ;)
About the '06 cam on the MK4-M3 (sorry for saying "THAT" word)...
you are right... it's a dead bang match for the M118-LR load @ 2675/2700,
for those that think in yards.
It was cut for the old '06/180 SMK match load that nobody loads anymore,
but the 180 SMK with a 13 degree boat tail, is just about an exact BC match
for the 175 SMK with the longer 9 degree boattail.
I spoke to John Ruitta at Lupita, last week, about the confusion
on these, and their claimed 168/2600 cam for the MK4 (which isn't... it's
an exact copy of the old "M118 7.62 NATO" cam, and in meters, though it's
marked "YDS"), and he says they've lost track of where the come-ups came
from, and are getting a lotta complaints on it... Garth says pretty much
the same, and wants some numbers crunched.
Their regular customer service is totally lost on the issue, claiming
that it's for the "168/M118 load" WTF??
Bravo...
If the range is in the middle of two clicks, then "Split the clicks"...
you don't have to have the cam be "in" the notch... both of the M3's will
split a click if necessary, the LR being a bit easier.
Ok, OK... I won't say "CAM" for a month... well maybe a few days
;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
SUPER posts on the M-3 turrets, thats the kinda field data this site
is all about.
I've been working with the new TRGT .300WM data book and been tickled
to death (more on this later)in general with it. I wish I'd had the smarts
to get one last year before the Carlos II Match.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
You sir, by your writings and knowledge (especially in the turret
cam business) are much more knowledgable and a much more suitable witness
than he could ever hope to be.
MicTac <Mictac@AOL.com>
There are skid marks from the car trying to stop from hitting the
skunk.
Brian Vice <bvice@mindspring.com>
Ballistic Cams:
IS IT NOT JUST A REFERENCE POINT?
For instance, in the highpower community where people shoot M1A'a
and AR's, the sights are marked like a BDC. What do you do if they don't
work perfecty? Change your sights? NO. They are just a reference point.
A zero for 500yds could be written as 5+1, or maybe a 600 yard zero could
be 6-2. What is all the fuss over? If you think you are going to buy a
cam and it is going to be perfect then good luck to you.
If I am totally out of line here please let me know.
Thanks
Pablito, try "www.gstreetfabrics.com" . I think that's it. The stuff
I sent you is polyester and polyester chiffon in green, OD, and tan.
OK, guys. Quit yacking and arguing and start shooting on the range
again. Sound like a buncha little girls or a couple of drunks trying to
figure who's the baddest.
Andrew, the Dillon 550 is an excellent machine, but depending on
your powder you may have to use a powder tricker, and weigh all your long
range (past 600 yards) loads.
Ken, give me a call. Will be at Bragg until late Thursday night.
Your statement is quite true: some folks here have obsessed here
about how well what bullet tracks with what "cam". Indeed some have missed
the point that *no* cam is going to adequatly track any given load perfectly
under all conditions. You are correct in saying that it is just a reference.
However, that does not mean that trying to match the best cam avialable
to a given load is a useless activity. Sometimes you might be in a hurry
or you might forget all that business of puttin' on four MOA up from your
200 yard zero to get your 500 yard zero, but only if its a hot day, uh,
"lights up, sights up", uh, what was the range again? I contend that there
are occasions wher you might do best to simply line up the number "5" on
the cam and shoot the thing. If it hits .5 MOA high (as in my case with
the 168s), then thats just tough. I doubt your target will know the difference
in most cases. I suspect that such a quick and dirty reference can be a
handy thing at times. This is what makes the M3 system such a good idea
in my book: the fact that you are neither commited to a pure cam nor are
you stuck with an awkward, slow, ultra-fine adjustment system as with the
M1.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Patron Dave: What, you mean you didn't want to live that Rodney Dangerfield
bit from Caddy Shack? As rifle barrels make nice lightning rods, I'm glad
you're not "fried Dave".
Andrew: Patron Dave is entirely correct. Get a good powder and go
to it! My loads (with me shooting) weren't THAT much different than Patron
Mike shooting my rifle with Fed GM2. Mine were done on a progressive too.
1000 rounds in 3 hours at Fed GM2 accuracy is sure sweet!
Some clown mentioned this last year.
The response that the "GOD of Leupold BDC Dials" gave back then went
something like,
If that is your definition of close enough, you would finish last
in every tactical match I ever shot in.....
I wonder what has changed between then and now?
I feel that what I said is true by the narrow set of parameters I
provied: a close-enough cam may suffice for a quick shot under time pressure
under field conditions under some circumstances. If somebody else said
that it would be inadequate under another set of circumstances ie, those
related to a tactical match of some sort or under another specific set
of field conditions, I will not attempt to refute that as I am not qualified
to do so. They may well be right. I asked if there was a concensus forming.
I was not stating that one had in fact formed and I suspect now that one
has not formed as of yet. I would not (and have not) drawn any broad conclusions
based on a handful of posts here. Therfore, I would contend that no gloating
on your part is called for at this time.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Comedy relief: "concensus of opinion as to the possibility" sounds
a LOT like the folks talking about the monsters at the edge of the flat
Earth. When I've got hard numbers, I'll let you know. When you get one
of these scopes, let me know.
As I sit down to a dinner of burros (that's a Arizona border town
name) I say to myself "God Bless Bruce Robinson!".
"Well, well, well."... Well, well, well???
Even my 8 year old son doesn't talk like that... he says it's "Baby
talk!"
There may be a "concensus of opinion" as to the possibility of using
the 3006-180-2700 dial as a substitute for the 175 grain load at the same
velocity."
But... the concensus is between Mike and me...
Sorry to be so long in answering, but if some "clown" mentioned this
last year, I can't find it.
Perhaps you can tell me where it is?
You ARE, of course, coming to Storm, and bringing bullets for your
gun???
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
This would be the scope I throw onto that 300WinMag I mentioned last
week that is on my shopping list.
Comments can be sent to my email or here, I'll check both. Thanks
for any thoughts you have on the price.
You gonna' use a 300 win on gound rats??
The $680 is a very good for a nib M3-LR if it has mildots.
Reason for getting the mag? I just want to get something to make
me flinch! heh
No, it stems back from the Emails I shot off to you an a few others
about 9 months back. I'm interested in stretching my skills out over the
foothills around my parts. Colinga is about 2 hours away from me and word
is that is a 1500 yard range. I've always been a boomer but with the way
Ca. started playing their hand I had to get my semiauto line up organized
before they got their way. Now that that is said and done, I'm onto the
more elegant non-toy stuff.
The one thing that will dictate whether I get this gun or not is
when the CHP division gets back to me on whether they are gonna follow
the background investigators recommendation for hire and give me a class
date. If I get a class date of August then I'm not going to put money into
a gun that I won't see for 6 months except for on the rare weekend liberty.
If they give me a November class date I very well might step into a 300WienerMag
Sendero to help pass the time.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Steve
Pablito, I hope to go to Storm this year, but I have not worked out
the details yet. (Does not look like any interesting side wagers to finace
my trip) Either way I say this to anyone thinking about going. Storm Mountain
is an excellent place. Rod runs a great school and the events is worth
the cost. Now if I could just convince my ex that I should not have to
pay child support that month.LOL
Well, my new HS Precision 338 Lapua cames this week end. I have a
US Optics SN 3 to put on it as soon as I get some screws that fit the action.
They use the 8x40 size and all my mounts have the little screws in them.
Looks like a week before I can shoot it. JR, it certainly is pretty. It
is sitting in the safe torturing me right now.LOL
Undude/Mike
Autauga Arms makes a "high " one piece base that is a monster, weighs
over a pound...
That, combined with MGW, or Badger extra high rings will give you
lot'sa room.
Stevie Where is the page you spoke about...the one where you say you...
uh... the "Clown (or is it "Jerk"?) talks about the 30-06 cam???
Inquiring minds want to know...
And how about your snail-mail address... my printer is running.
'lito
Its at
http://www.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html
Any comments on how reliable it is?
If someone else were to ask me real nice, (someone who has not been
insulting me at every opportunity), I can't imagine who that might be.
I might tell them, but not you.
What do I need a ton of snail mail for? Why keep it a secret? All
I need is reasonable proof that the the metric dial in question was actually
designed for the 175 at 2681 FPS under standard metro conditions and that
it works as advertised. Nothing else.
I can't understand your interest in that Old Springfield either.
It is the most peculiar rifle I have ever owned. It took me years to discover
all its idiosyncrasies, and longer still to master the weapon. I only shoot
it for the pleasure of it. It is not a rifle that I would bring to a match
to try to beat someone with.
After a few years of whining obout wanting to see the proof, and
after a few years of lies and insults, now you all of a sudden, your life
it too full to find your quote... and the dog ate your homework, you lying
piece of spineless crap.
Lookin forward to meeting you this September... we have a lot to
"talk about".
'lito
PAblito <condor@mags.net>
"Stay the Line!!"
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
I feel I owe you an apology. On Friday, I wrote, "... and Vice may
have had a bit of an elitist attitude. I cannot say anything further about
either without meeting or talking to them." After your posts here and a
further explanation of the circumstances behind the article, my inference
was incorrect and I retract the above statement. My only excuse is that
I was trying to calm down a flamewar.
Everyone else
Long range shooting. I mean, REALLY long range shooting. Place: Sandy
Hook, NJ. Maximum range: 3200 yards. One of the guns used was a modified
Springfield, firing a 45-80-500 round that was 2.4" long (I presume brass
size). Muzzle velocity was 1375 fps, with an elevation of 20 deg 51'37".
The target was 22' high, 44' wide (That's feet, not inches). This was hit
four times out of the (not mentioned, but probable) 50-100 shots, using
an extended leaf rear site. Tests conducted in 1879.
Now that's shooting! Link to an article by clicking on my name.
Guy's, in the last week we've have enough leg humping, whoofing,
huffing, puffing, shit talking and posturing to last a bunch of inner city
gansters for month's. Its not contributing a thing.
Just my opinion,
Out
Kevin OUT!
Semper Fi,
Thanks for all the feedback on Dillon press. Lots of food for thought.
Ballistics: Not familiar with that program. I use Sierra Infinity
Ballistics. Like it a lot. For $20 one can get Exbal from Perry Systems.
See the link from Sniper Country main page. It lets you dump the run into
Excel for more playing etc. Thinking about getting that one myself.
My range maxes out at 500 meters. Sure would be nice to try for 1000
yds. Are there any 1000 yd ranges in PA ?
I try to add what I have learned to this site. I am tired of everytime
I say something I am attacked by someone that will not face me in anyway.
This all started over some stupid crap that is so far removed I flushed
it long ago. Hell it was an opinion. I wonder how all of you would feel
in the same boat. Hell, I know it has effected me, I went off when Steve
used the "Elite Cops" thing, I flashed back to another stupid thread where
he called me an "Elite" well you know what. That caused me to go for him
on the crack about the Phili Cops. I should not have done that and I give
a big I am sorry to the DR for it.
The thing between Steve and Pablito is of equal unimportance, but
again everytime Pablito posts anything he is attacked by Steve. I have
met Pablito, disagree with him on a regular basis and would have him around
me anytime. Worked around him for over a week and he is a team player,
never gives up and helps who and when he can. He justs posts what he has
learned. I have learned from him and many others on here. We share our
combined experiences and all benefit.
As a matter of fact everyone I have met from here has turned out
to be a stand up guy. I am sure the Major is a stand up Gal, as her husband
deserves it.
Steve, I make this offer to you here and now. You do not attack me
opor what I say and I wont attack you. If you disagree with me just say
we disagree and I will do the same for you. Gooch is right enough trash
talking to last a life time, on this issue. Now this is not intended to
place blame just stop the stupidity. Steve,If this does not work for you
lets meet and settle this some other way that does not involve these fine
folks.
There are no Gods, or elitists on here. Just a bunch of shooters
tring to help each other.
Sixty slings done today and a bunch getting shipped to TRGT and others.
Undude/Mike
The .300RUM has been summed up pretty well by mister Wild Bill Rogers
above.
I have one in a 700 Police(a "BDL"(?)/ not the DM version) and will
be wringing it out after The Sniper Rendezvous in September. The .300WM
190 gr. Federal GM load is hard to beat.
However,
I have started preliminary load work running a .300 RUM with the
Sierra 190 gr BTHP at hopefully 3200-3300 fps and staying within safe pressure
ranges.
In about two months, additional loads will be made available from
other commercial sources (possibly virgin brass too). Remington only makes
loaded rounds.
Then things will get exciting!
Chao!
peteR <PMNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
As far as the trash talk and name calling, I plead not guilty.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
300 RUM: I've not bought this chambering, although when it came out,
I HAD to look at a stock round (with calipers in hand). Opinion (not worth
much) is that it's not significantly different from a wildcat round in
P.O. Ackley's twin books for reloaders which was noted as a barrel burner.
Hey, didn't Wild Bill say something to this effect? Even 'yote bates get
one right every now and then! ;-)
And Wild Bill: your experiments with the stock ranch rifle DID NOT
go by un-noticed. You're correct on the follow up though, when I read it,
I was thinking "1:7, Hornady thin jacket? Didn't tear up?" Truth to tell,
I'm tempted to be the fly in the ointment and show up with a mini. I won't,
because I figure the voice of experience has spoken, but I'm gonna do a
"stress test" to learn anyway. Probably do it on my "good" mini, then have
another barrel slapped on it. Maybe this time I'll spring for the "good"
barrel. Or sell the mini all together. Anyone want a bunch of 30 round
PMI mags? Really though, thanks mucho.
And James, didn't RB do well in the CQB with a M1 carbine? ;-) No,
I won't bring one!
Kent: are you sure it was pigs that you were talking about? WV sheep?
;-)
To all, including Comic Relief, have a great evening. I'm in the
midst of making more empty bottles for "Bravo Brew", and life is fine.
To quote Reginald Denny "Can't we all just get along?". Of course, I was
armed and ready when the city was burning then too. If any of you have
a "special request", let me know. I'll play with the recipes until June
/ August when we get together again. Via condios mes amigos!
300 WinMag vs 300UMag? 300 UMag is a bitch to find brass for at a
reasonable price. (bugs me) The ultra has about 150-200 fps more speed.
Nice. A bigger kick? Not really. Nothing noticable.
The ultra doesn't use belted brass, so it headspaces differently
for a better fit. The 300 winmag and the ultra really can be finicky about
the fit of the cartridge to the chamber.
I bought a 300 winmag Sendro, and love the "spitwad shooter" (wife
calls it that). The ultra only came in a stainless fluted version at the
time, but I wanted the simple heavy barrel.
I have been working with an ultra, including handloads, and found
the ultra to be not any better in accuracy, but it does deliver a little
more velocity.
With the ultra the brass is reusable so far up to 6 times and I expect
up to 8 or more times, whereas the winmag eats them like candy with 6 being
max practical. The brass wears at the belt badly on the winmag (no, no
overpressure, just a simple problem with the winmag belted cartridge) Also,
the neck has worn on many of the winmag brass. The ultra has a different
necking, so it is a bit easier on brass.
Barrel wear on the winmag is about 2000-2500 rounds, but the ultra
at 1200 or so rounds is showing a few additional signs of wear. Not sure
if that is normal, andif so, what life expentancy there is, but is goes
to reason that more powder burn equals more wear.
The ultra is the sexier catridge, but the winmag is far more prevelant
and brass and other handloading items are more readily available. If that
isn't an issue, and you can find the ultra in the rifle configuration you
would like, I prefer the ultra only for the better velocity and catridge
(read: brass) design. Both shoot as well as each other, but the ultra has
a slight edge. I don't mind the barrel changes, but that is certainly a
factor.
Hope this helps.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
We have a small problem that we need your expertice on please? We
both own our own rifles, .338 Win Mags, custome build and 55" in total
lentgh. We would like to have these painted but info about this in our
country is very limited. Is there anybody that could please inform us as
to what paint we need to use on these rifles that will withstand some knocking.
Thank you very much
Well, the wheel weghts are doing pretty good. The only thing is no
matter what temp I keep the stuff at they still look frosty. I think I'll
try some 50/50 plumbers solder to try and help it flow better.
Well, as the summer weather continues, I am going to finally try
out some of my .300 Win mag loads in my Sendero. I am also anxious to try
out my .308 Win., RCBS competition seater after the RCBS guys gave it the
once over.
Has anyone tried the new Hogden "Benchmark"? If so, how does it compare
to Varget?
I am at sort of a delema, I am torn to either buy a Nikon 800m range
finder or set up my M1A with a mount and a Tasco SS10X42M scope. Has anyone
tried the Nikon range finder? I mean put it to the test. I want something
durable for field (ab)use. It's around $320 so it's no small investment
on my part.
Haven't been keeping up with the roster as of late, computer upgrade
and all. Sorry if this is a big change of subject.
Anyone in Northern California know where to get linotype?
Semper Fi!!
Bad Karma
On the 300 Win/Ultra thing. The 300 Ultra has a great deal of promise
but it will wear you bbl out faster than you can save for another one.
The 300 Win is bad enough! With a 300 Win and 190's out of a good bbl,
you can get over 3000 fps and that will take you to 1200 yards. Past that
go to a 338 Lapua for about 1500 yards, but can you say recoil? It is like
the difference between shooting a 308 and a 300 Win. Not a beginners gun.
Jerr190'ce and I were talking about this today and I said I did not notice
the recoil being bad. He said something I wont repeat, but the principal
thing is it is not for the faint of heart. While on the 300 win subject,
TRGT has data in the new book for the 190's. I like that book.
Bravo, brew a big batch for the next classes. I have not had any
beer that good before or since I last had one of yours.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
thanks gang,,
Ken
I've been getting cheap shots for a few years from Steve, and I thought
if I just ignored them, he'd get over it... but in the last month, he has
escalated it to a point that is unexceptable to all, including myself.
Won't continue... sorry...
See ya'
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Hmmm.. let's see, how about a nice Weiss-bier to start off, not too
smokey, just enough to smoothe the pallet. Then segway into a porter, not
a stout...some of us don't like the consistency of peat moss in our beer.
Will you be at Storm for the rendezvous?
This post doesn't relate to precision shooting, you say? We'll call
it "team building" hardware.
On bullet-casting metal, you need to go to an industrial supply store
and get #4 commercial babbit. It's 95%lead, 5% antimony, or something like
that. It won't fill out the molds right, because it's got no tin, so the
next stop is a plumbing supply store for a spool of lead-free wire. That
is 98% tin (you'll think it's 98% gold when you get to the check-out counter),
but you don't need much - 1 or 2 % by weight. Snip off a foot, weigh it,
and write the result down somewhere. From then on, you can just but "x"
inches of wire in the pot with each block of babbitt. Beats the heck out
of dirty wheel weights or looking for a time machine to get linotype.
Weiss-bier? Man, I love a challenge! Porter? My porters are bad,
it’ll take a year to get it right! Peat moss texture? Great for tobacco
(Drum) but bad for beer. I’ve got a quarter decent heffeweizen though…
I’ve got this bad feeling that my little “long range rollerskate”
will be the target of a ATF raid ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Ken :))
Bill Ferguson of Arizona , sells all the supplies needed to make
any old scrap lead ,into clean
Hans K. <akuwert123@Hotmail.com>
Jerry
Two things, if you can help me. One, I know that Remington now produces
the PSS LTR in .223...my question is the fluting. I'd read that the fluting
on the .308 LTR is supposed to enhance the shot with specific "barrel harmonics"
when used with 168 gr FED Gold Metal Match round -ie- Tactical Shooter.
Now it seems to me that the new LTR in .223 sports the same fluting...How
does the fluting effect the .223 round? Is it there strictly for cosmetics
or does it actually serve a purpose for a specific round like the .308?
Two, I'm looking for an after-market stock for my Savage 110 tactical
.223. I've got a great trigger for it, now I'm just looking for a stock
that doesn't feel so...cheap. Also, something that might help reduce the
fact that the weapon is so barrel heavy would be nice. I appreciate a good
balanced firearm.
Once again, it's a great site. Keep up the good work and I appreciate
any help you guys can give me.
Sincerely, Remix
I think we can be even more original than that. Seeing that we are
living in this electronic age of wonders, why don't we go a bit further?
We give those options, but go a bit further with them, and use the technology
available to us. Of course our visitors will have to co-operate as well,
and make some slight modifications to their own hardware.
First of all, for those not yet so equipped, a set of good speakers,
volume always turned full-blast.
Next a mechanical arm mounted on top of the monitor, in such a way
as to be able to reach the keyboard operator.
Thirdly, another mechanical arm underneath the desk, once again mounted
in such a way as to be able to reach the keyboard operator.
Then, depending on the option the visitor choose, one of the following
acitons will follow:
1. The font colour for this post would be changed to black, so as
not to bore anyone. If somebody is really desperate enough to want to read
it they can mark it and be able to read it.
2. Ditto, plus the speaker will be employed to give the visitor a
cheer for their past service.
3. Employ the arm underneath the table to kick his ass, cancelling
the post at the same time.
4. Just post this, and play soothing music while using the arm on
the monitor to knock him out cold
5. Use the arm underneath the table again and crush his b@lls! That
is what he wanted, wasn't it?
6. Just post this - you don't mess with someone in this state.
7. Blast his ears, slap his face and kick his butt - and then post
his submission.
How's all that for employing technology to the benefit of all? :-)
I'd better get back to the stuff Pete sent me - he's most probably
wondering what has happened to it. Now he knows, I too hav elost my marbles!
:-)
Marius
First post. Just got into long range, been reading this site for
months, much to learn. I bought a NIB Rem. 700 VS at gun show last year.
I broke in the barrel following tips from this site. Using British surplus
ammo. I was getting 2 to 3 inch groups. Very unhappy. Then bought a box
of Rem. match with Sierra 168's. Shot under an inch. Very happy. I kissed
each casing as I pulled em.
1. How do the match hollow points do on game such as deer?
2. Whats the best place to buy good but cheap ammo?, (Not reloading
for now)
3. My stock seems to have an alluminum bedding that is in two pieces,
4. I was using a harris bipod till a guy at the range checked the
barrel with a piece of paper. There was contact. No loger using bipod.
Is this problem related to above mentioned two piece bedding or what? What
do I have to do to ensure barrel float while using the bipod?
Any information would be appreciated.
Doug
Doug Raymer <doug@vernor.com>
Jerry,
Jim <Jim@inrec.com>
Steve
Steve <nato@bright.net>
Pat T
Thanks
Thank you.
Justin
I apologise if this is old news to some, but this is the first I
have heard of it.
Called the people at Precision Shooing/Tactical Shooter today to
renew my subscribtion to TS after a brief hiatus. The lady proceded to
inform me that as of the November issue, TS was going change its name and
that the focus was going to shift towards things like Palma, High Power
and benchrest shooting (I thought thats what PS covered already?). Whatever
its final form, it would appear that this important resource is getting
ready to change in a fundamental way, one probably not to the liking of
many here. I went ahead and subscribed and ordered every back issue ($50)
while I was at it. A bargain, realy, and apparently an irreplaceable one.
Nesxt: a back issue of every PS. That will be relativly expensive, though.
Matchkings on deer:
A very poor combination. The little hollowpoint on a MK will not
reliably initiate expantion upon impact. Its designed to move the center
of mass futher to the rear and thus promote stabilty, not expantion.
Barrel Clearance and Bipods:
Among the many problems that my PSS shipped with from the factory,
the barrel made hard contact with the stock wether on a bipod or not. Lather,
after I milled out a fair bit of aluminum and glassed the thing, I found
that that I had removed anough aluminum from in front of the recoil lug
that the stock would flex while on the bipod and, again, make contact with
the barrel. The solution for me proved to be more bedding compound in the
forend immediatly in fornt of the recoil lug, the addition of a target
acc. rail along the bottom of the forend and (most criticaly) releiving
the barrel channel more. Mine is now rock-solid. In your case, I would
try the last method listed above first and see what you have at that point
before proceding further. I doubt it is related to any sort of "two-piece"
bedding system as I dont think HS Precision has ever made such.
Hot Barrels, Light and Heavy, and POI Shifts:
Seems to me that, all else equal, a light barrel can be about as
resistant to odd behavior as a heavy one when it come to heat. The thing
is that in real-life, all things are rarely equal. A heavy barrel would
be more resistant to walking under heat, particulary when the steel in
that barrel is less than perfect, with stresses, variances and streaks
in the alloy an hardness, all that crap. Perhaps it makes much less of
a difference with a Hart barrel than a $30 Remington Dispoz-a-Barrel. Its
a thought, anyway....
-Tom
You are hereby notified to stop any further continuance your snide
remarks as stated above in the Duty Roster Rules of Engagement.
Your slights are starting to be directed at innocent third parties
and it is not acceptable. PERIOD!
Should you not refrain, YOU WILL BE ASKED TO GO ELSEWHERE FOR YOUR
playing your PETTY GAMES!
IT STOPS HERE AND NOW!
U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
To Avoid any further misunderstanding, here is a copy of the post
that I was refering to when I said some clown mentioned last year about
the 308 168 2700 cam.
"On the last part of your post where you said that the M118-Special
Steve S.C.D.H. Ohio, USA - Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 20:34:58 (ZULU)
Here is Pablito's response to this post,
"Steve...
I would suggest you buy one annt oe it in the way it was intended.
I hope this helps
Thanks for the welcome. I did follow your advice and it has opened
some new ideas in my head. Thanx!!!!
CDC:
I am not an expert, but I think the Leupold Luminated Reticule actually
works in the dark (hahaha), I could not resist myself to add this. Seriously,
my feeling is that in low to zero light it might be more efective but,
and again this is my opinion, during daylight shooting the crosshairs or
whatever you want to call them are too thick and need some getting used
to.
Marius:
Hoe gaan dit, baie lanklaas met jou gesels. Hoekom het jy nog nie
die ouens geleer om in afrikaans te praat nie, dit sal dalk 'n goeie ervaaring
wees vir hulle. Gesels weer later met jou, ek moet nou eers weer 'n bietjie
gaan werk, maar as ek 'n kans kry later vandag gaan ek jou 'n bietjie kontak
vir inligting.
Cheers Guys
Rob
Bill971.
Of course, that doesn't mean I won't try to win <g>.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
Jerry
My Rem 700P-DM stock touched the barrel. This is a common problem
with HS stocks - some bedding blocks are set in slightly crooked causing
the barrel to float off center in relation to the channel. Take the action
out, lay it in the bedding block, put the butt of the stock on the floor
making sure the lug is rearward and torque to 65 INCH POUNDS. Be careful
not to center the barrel in relation to stock and torque it down. The action
must rest centered in the block. If the stock still rubs the barrel, note
where, take the action out and then take some sandpaper and inlet the stock.
Remington will cover this under warranty but will most likely only pay
to have the stock inletted. Hope this helps.
Nice to hear from you!
I'll be there too, and hopefully do better than last year as most
of my equipment is now sorted out.
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
LeMay OUT
Numerous companies produce fine rifles. I would like to hear opinions
of shooters as to what rifle in .308 you prefer. I suggest a ranking in
order of the rifles you most prefer. Some of the manufactuers of course
are AI, AWC, Texas Brigade, Tac-Ord, McBros...
Any opinions?
My only experiences to date is with a PSS so I would like to hear
the experts on this forum.
Robert S Tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 16:43:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Well, I've been educated on the 243. I won't say anymore bad about
it. Take note, this is what happens when one puts an assumption out there.
Although it was noted as such. At least I can learn the hard way!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 07,
2000 at 18:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
A question of honour.
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 18:12:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.93.222.165)
James R Jarrett: RE: Post on paying ones debts.
And that cannot ( most times), be ever regained.
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 18:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.197.46)
Why do you guys ignore the folks looking for an opinion on which rifle
is the best between the Rem.700P and the Winchester M70stealth? I have
seen three or four postings for this question and no reply.If you have
to answer it a thousand time so be it, thats what keeps this passion of
ours alive, helping those looking to get started. If you have expereince
with these two rifle please post it here, and if the question comes up
again refer them to the actual date of your postings. Guys if you will,
lets have it. Today would be great. I'm looking to buy either one tomorrow
Tony <tonylongshot@aol.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 20:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.56)
Tony: the reason I don't respond to that question is because I've never
owned a Win Stealth or a Rem 700P. Whatcha want, supposition?? One of the
guys out at the class did really well with a Win, but it was a "pre-stealth"
if I remember correctly.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
shooting M-25's in the, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 21:02:12
(ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Tony,
Buy either one! They are both good rifles. But, if you fancy yourself
somewhat of a collector, get the 700P. They are getting very hard to come
by as new.
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 21:06:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.107.24.21)
Tonylongshot...
My vote is Springfield M21 (like the M25, only MUCH nicer;).
A man that voluntarily doesn't pay his debts has no honor to debate
about.
Last year, either American Rifleman, or Precision Shooting, published
a test of a bunch of rifles, half Cryo'ed/half not, and found no improvement
in accuracy, barrel life, throat life, or anything... NADA!
It's a waste of money.
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 21:35:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Can someone email me the specs on the barrel contour of the M40A1 rifle?
I believe that the length is 24", but I would like to know the initial
diameter and the muzzle diameter along with a weight if at all possible.
If anyone knows this information I would appreciate it.
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 22:51:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
167.234.100.218)
On the barrel freezing,
I remember reading the article Pablito is talking about and have
read others that are in agreement. Haven't seen many that are in favor
of it. I can say though that from the point of view of a tool and die maker
that when working with certain steels that are hard to machine and have
alot of internal stress in them, that deep freezing them before or sometime
during the manufacturing process of a piece, that it sometimes does make
a huge difference in the ease of finishing that specific piece depending
on how intricate it is. I'm not saying that I think cryoing a barrel is
worth it or a good idea, just throwing out some added information on the
subject.
Eric R. <Roody5150@aol.com>
Cabot, Pa, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:22:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.197.29)
Orion;Gooch is giving good advice as he usually does.If you can't afford
a lot of money look at Savage.Buy as good a piece of glass as you an afford,Leupold
VXII and Tasco SS are both bargains put them on good bases and buy LOTS
of ammo.Could be you don't need any more than that.Owning a top-fuel dragster
doesn't make you a top-fuel driver.A lot of ammo through an economical
rifle is better than not being able to shoot because you spent all your
money on equipment.
Texas, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:27:46 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.199.46)
OH Yea,on stress relief:
forged engine parts are commonly shot blasted to relieved stresses
incurred during manufacture anybody tried this on barrels?Where's that
machinist........Ned?Forces needed to effect stress relief are much more
subtle than they would seem.
Bruce E. <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:35:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.199.46)
Unfortunately the name on the brand of a rifle doesn't give you the
last word about it's worth. There were times when Winchester was crap and
the same for Remington. I once got a Winchester that had no safety at all
brand new right out of the box and another that would fire if you pulled
the trigger while on half safe and then took the safety off. I had a Savage
with no safety and a Remington that wouldn't accept the bolt furnished
with it. Numberous head space problems in all makes. I've never had a PSS
that wasn't a problem in some way. IT's all relative to when they were
made. Inspect what you're buying and if there is anything at all funny
about it... don't take it with you. If your lucky you might get a good
barrel to go with it. If there is rough creep in the trigger beware. Sometimes
you can adjust it but sometimes you will have hell. Current rifles by Winchester
and some of the older ones are quite good. Different models are sometimes
made in different plants with Remington and Win both I believe so you can't
just say one is better than the other. As of late the quality control seems
just as good or better on Winchester. But they tend to be too heavy, to
move quickly with, in some of the offerings for so called long range accurate
rifles. Remington VSS and VSSF (if you will allow) are made with much attention
to quality control, I find them more acceptable than the blued versions
or PSS models either. I think it has something to do with the age of the
tooling or something. The best gun I think today is the VSS remington in
.308 .223 or the Sendero Stainless fluted or not in 25-06. The .300 is
a great gun if you want to fireform and treat the brass before doing serious
work with it. That .260 is very interesting but I think it will die eventually.
(SAD, it's great in it's own way but that's what I think.) Don't think
that's the only good guns ... that's just one old "hunter's" opinion. (not
responsible for your definition of hunter). Don't read the archive's it
will just confuse you! (chuckle). This post has nothing to do with anything
but out of the box guns. If you got lots of it ... spend it... on a good
custom gun. Keep it short and light as possible so you can move with it
and don't hate it.
Take if from an old has been, James knows what he speaks about condtioning
and taking it. If I would have just known I'd last this long.....!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
A day at the range is all the stress relief I need!!!
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:47:42 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.184)
Stress Relief...
... and of course, after all that, we stick a metal plug in the
hole that is oversized, and force it in with 60,000 psi of pressure, and
generate humongous "Stress"... and we're solving a problem???
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:51:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
it would seem there is another fellow boise resident on thie board:)
Chris <smp@dazedandconfused.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 01:48:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.36.16.26)
Yes a Boisean. Not originally, but for the last year. came from the
east side of the start where there are more critters to shoot. What's the
story with the shooting scene in Boise? I am pretty passionate about my
rifles, but few other people in the world are, so I have to keep it to
myself most of the time.
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 02:28:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.15.127.201)
TonyLongShot,
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 03:08:16 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.74)
James,
It is sad that one bad apple can sour the bunch. Hopefully there
was enough good from our group to overcome the turd in the punch bowl!
I would be more than happy to cover the loser's debt, but I think that
would only excuse poor behavior.
San Hoe, CA, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 04:42:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
Skip this one if you're not interested in the cryo discussion.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, July
08, 2000 at 05:42:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.216)
Bravo...
That's like having the con rods peened (that's what they called
it when I was a motor head)... on a stock Ford Pinto, and believing you
have a race car.
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 10:37:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
slightly off topic but i thought you might like to know that a euro
site (sweden) has some very good sniper t-shirts for sale i recieved mine
yesterday.i am not sure if there are any left but its worth a look. the
url is www.nordicsniper.com
thanxs.
tom <mildot@military.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 11:47:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
212.151.104.49)
Looking into getting ballistics software. So far have looked at Silhouette
Ballistics, Sierra, Ex-bal and Ballistics Explorer. Any recommendations
?
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 12:00:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.92.13.223)
Bravo, Lito and others the Cryo thing mostly releaves your wallet.
KxP does not cryo there bbl's and they seem to shoot as well as any others.
If you take a standard remington/Savage/Winchester bbl and put 150.00 into
it you just lost the cash if you ever get rid of it. Put a great bbl on
it and the rifle goes up in value. Now for Cryos plus I think the main
plus is that you may think it will shoot better and fool yourself into
shooting better groups. I do not think it would hurt the bbl but I do not
think it will make it much if any better. The main problem with bores are
roughness and not being perfectly made/internal sizes. Cryo will not fix
that. If you buy a cut rifled bbl you will not have to worry about stress.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 14:20:43 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.83.143)
No Pissin' here, just an Honorable discussion on a debated topic. That
is what we all come here for. Look up some of the barrel manufacturers
such as Shilen and Lilja and they have a FAQ section that gives their two
cents worth. Are they right? maybe, maybe not. The point is, you are investing
a huge amount of money into this rifle. THat is not the issue. Getting
throught the fluff is. Lots of tests have been done and there is no conclusion
that Cryo helps. But at the same time, do Badger rings help? Does D.D.
Ross floorplate and scope mount help? Help what? They are definitely top
of the line, and that is what some of us are after. If I had less than
the best, I'd always have that nagging feeling. Here is a point. You can
always have a barrel treated. IT isn't something you have to do up front.
Wait and see what becomes of the treatment and if you gat convinced to
have it done, then you can share the results with the rest of us and we'll
all be that much more 'edicated. '
boise, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 15:29:13 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.15.127.107)
What are the differences between the Dan Ross scope mount and the Badger
scope mount? (for a Rem without the clip slot!!) Which would you choose
and why??
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 15:57:02 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.15.127.107)
Well, in a rare about face, I'm gonna give Patrons 'Lito and Mike the
nod. Sound odd? Basically, I wasn't thinking of "first things first". You
shot peen conn rods because you wanna take out the mechanical stresses.
I don't (never have and never will) cryo a conn rod, as the lattice doesn't
matter. I think that YOU TWO have the idea. Why correct a crystalline structure
when you've got mechanical stresses? It's a matter of getting the 95% (mechanical)
done BEFORE you worry with the 5% (cryo). If that much. On a $35 barrel,
I would expect it to do NO good. Same for a poorly turned down barrel.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, July
08, 2000 at 15:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.195)
Tonylongshot......Follow PeteR's advice step by step, but I'll add
the following:
Don't waste any money on "freezing" barrel treatments.
They are feel-good mind game techniques that were
popularized by the benchrest crowd and the gunsmiths
that have learned how to take advantage of neurotics:((
INCOMING!!!!!
yourself be taken advantage of and buy lots of ammo...
LOTS OF AMMO! Get lots of practise!
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Too hot to cyro today, Colorado, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at
16:02:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.133)
Tom:
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 16:04:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 193.212.93.33)
Mike:
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 16:30:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
On cryo'ing a barrel:
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 17:35:12 (ZULU)
(your host address: 134.84.148.151)
PROBLEM; Stove Pipe malfunctions
I recently got a new Rem model 597, 22 rim-fire for economical fun
and plinking. It's had maybe 500 rounds through it and I'm still getting
stove pipe type malfunctions at the rate of one every 10-12 rounds. If
this was one of my AR15's, I'd know what to do, however I find myself stuck.
La Jolla, CA, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 17:48:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.30.151.132)
i dont nkow about the hooting scene, im just now getting into any rifle
bigger than my .22:) i jsut like to go out into the desert and shoot at
whistlepigs and whatever else is out there:P
chris <smp@dazedandconfused.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 17:51:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.36.16.97)
Michael,
Mo-town, WV, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 19:11:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.100.242.133)
Gentlemen:
Canada - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 21:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.172.92.74)
Cryo!!!! "SAVE YOUR MONEY" Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
To run a test I had some SS match barrels cryoed. Two of the barrels
were for 22 Cheetahs and I knew the barrel life for this cal. "Suprise,
Suprise" no increase in barrel life in fact one of the Cheetah barrels
got a shorter barrel life but I kind of blame the guy that has the rifle
for at least part of the loss in barrel life. I also sent in a couple of
SS match barrels for the 6mm and 22 BR to see this accuracy increase. "Suprise,
Suprise" no increase in accuracy. I know that it would take more testing
than this to prove anything but this is all my wallet would stand.
Just my two cents worth.
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 21:36:14 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.4.34)
Hello Guys,
Thanks
Tony <tonylongshot@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 22:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.193)
Does anyone have experience with the McMillan stock for the Steyr SSG
series rifles? I have an SSG69 with double triggers and iron sights. I'm
thinking about restocking but want to gather some more information first.
Thanks,
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 22:48:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.83.80.114)
Jerry Rice...
And I'll gladly take the word of a proven 'smith, over someone that
"dipped" his PSS, and thinks it's maybe better! ;)
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 23:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Tony. Go to www.badgerord.com
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 01:49:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.142)
Just back from Bragg. What a great week! Now we have to wait for the
Army to catch up and hand me PCS orders.
Fairfax, VA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 02:22:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.163.112.159)
Dave,
Tried the moly for awhile, gave it up after a season at the highpwer
range. Way too many unexplained 8's at 12:00. stopped using it, and my
shots at 600 stayed inside the 9, bordering the 10. Started benching my
M1A, at 300yd it kept 4
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 04:27:22 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.214.116.133)
What happened!
Anyway,It kept 4" at 300yd. The strange fliers stopped. Went back
to uncoated 168's and my stick went back to normal(for me).
HAs anyone tried the Nosler 168's yet? Impressions?
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 04:35:21 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.214.116.133)
Tony: tried 'em, they shot ALMOST as good as the Hornady's in my rifle,
and the Hornady's shot ALMOST as good as the Sierras. But they were better
than Speers. This is in one rifle though.....
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, July 09,
2000 at 05:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.161)
Any FAL fans out there. I am in the market for an STG58. I have decided
on an Entreprise Government or Target model. Entreprise is building STG58s
on their receivers and Austrian parts kits. Has anyone seen their rifles.
I am curious as to the quality of their work?
Albert Perez <damuyupy@stargate.net>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 12:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.114.161.52)
FALs:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 13:35:57 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
I love this board for the little pearls of wisdom you can learn to
try to get an advantage in putting bullets on target, but I always gravitate
back to the Gooch/Boucher train of thought: it doesn't really matter what
your gadgetry is, as long as you're out there PRACTICING, sending bullets
down-range. I saw this demonstrated when a young man, a national champion
with a tricked-out IPSC racing pistol was told "Bet you can't do that with
a stock gun." He picked up an out-of-the rack GI M1911A1 and proceeded
to spank everybody there, "handicapped" with what everybody saw was a pig.
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
"Sinister" Dave,
BIG BURLAP & SHOE GOO COVERED COVEREDCITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday,
July 09, 2000 at 14:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.54)
Dave L., glad you are home. We agree on todays subject completely.
I think the line Just shoot it is perfect for sniper work. It is not that
difficult. I also beleave that if you have good training and beleave you
can hit something you can. I just dont think I will miss and that has worked
for years. I am also of the Gooch, Jarrett, and Boucher schools. Too many
gadgets and items of questionable use fall out of packs.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervetion.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:27:25 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.83.143)
Pete, I wouldn't miss it for the world. The Storm Mountain event in
September is one of those that you really have to see to believe if you
like the stuff you read on this board. Kent Gooch, Rick Boucher, and Rod
Ryan put on an OUTSTANDING course on the facilities in West Virginia, truly
a professional product (I know it's frustrating to the folks out west or
in the Great White North, since it's a helluva drive, but I really do believe
that for a non-military sniper enthusiast or urban-heavy 100 yard police
sniper the Hathcock Match is an eye-opener).
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:40:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Enjoyed the site, also the pics of the Bundeswehr shooters, aside from
areas of conflict, I spent my entire career in Germany.
I have some questions regarding the 300WBY round for tactical use,
It seems other than the fact that it is expensive, no one uses it, We've
set up a tavtical 300WBY and enjoyed much sucess, But I'd like to hear
other opinions about the round.
Anyone with an opinion is welcome to email me at listed address.
Thank You for the support..
TRIDENT PROFESSIONAL DIVERS
satdivr@micron.net
New Orleans, LA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 16:54:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.14.236.169)
Bruce H.
The only problems I see are price of ammo, and recoil over a sustained
period of shooting.
Now all I have to do is round up Jame Gumb to cut the back vents
in the jacket and do a little bit of sewing.
"Would you Stalk me?, I'd Stalk me!" Really-Really-LMOA
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Even More of a Mess , By-GaWd, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 19:29:22
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.76)
Just to throw some more flames on the Moly fire, I just saw this website
by Norma.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 20:08:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
Dear Torsten (Bundeswehr photog),
I was in Graf, Hohenfels, Baden Baden, Heidelberg, Stuttgart, Amberg,
and Bayreuth. From the years of 1988-1996. Our sister unit was a Fallschrimjaeger
unit out of Stuttgart, I was a scout/sniper in the 2nd ACR.
If you get this please write with your e-mail address, would love
to talk Germany...
The last part of my career I was stationed in GAP, (Garmisch) teaching
klettern, Ich wahr eine Amerikanisch Bergfurher, I think my Deutsch ist
nicht so gut etzat. Meine frau komme aus Vilseck also..
Bruce Hudgens <satdivr@micron.net>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 20:19:04 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.17.9.209)
I have a question about the STG-58, with the Imbel receiver and Austrian
parts.
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 21:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Hello everyone!
me I like to run my bore brush 20xs and then 3-4 patches and poof
a spotless bore! Shoot up to 400rds with no shift in POI.What does
it
do for a sniper,NOTHING!!!!!!! What does it do for a lazy bastard
like
me? Less cleaning time!!! What does something for a sniper is solid
center mass hits at 800 meters!!!!!!!
Cryro--- I have never seen improved accuracy. Two of my barrels(Hart)
are treated have to wait and see if they last longer than the previous
ones.
If you like to scrub your barrel all day let it soak overnite be
my guest. JB paste, cleaning every 5-10 rds and all the rest of that bullshit
DO IT IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL WARM AND FUZZY. Moly for me eliminates this.
Now take it easy. "Danger close"
Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 22:04:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.86.249.130)
Dave (Sir, to those of us who know who you really are): You are spot
on with your last post. Do you think you could give that same speech to
our new shooters??? Are you planning on shooting Interservice/VA regional?
Let me know (off line if you want) if I can bring you up anything. You
are shooting an AR now, right? In the middle, Emil
Emil Praslick <emilp@mindspring.com>
Columbus, GA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 23:55:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.69.36.206)
Emil, coming from guys like you and Grant I am indeed humbled. Heck,
yeah I'll give a speech (they just have to stay awake!). (I will be shooting
only the Leg match, as I am bouncing back and forth between Pentagon and
Bragg until I have orders and household goods ironed out. I have to leave
the Nationals at the end of NRA week because I'm leading the US Delegation
to the CISM Meet in Czechoslovakia).
Someone is training
to beat you."
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 01:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Re: SSG Praslick. Ditto what the LTC said. The guy is also a Ranger
and a school trained sniper so he is a source of pride for us snipers.
We met in the National Guard during the Wilson matches in Little Rock.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 02:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.144)
I have a Remington Sendero in 300 Win Mag that I love and have had
for 9 months. Great rifle with sub MOA accuracy. The elevation with Leupold
Mark 4 base and rings (Badger was way behind in production at teh time
to deliver) and a Leupold M1 Long Range shoots dead center at 100 yards
with the elevation centered. Unfortunately the receiver has the rear screw
holes drilled 9 MOA to the left with the scope adjusted to my eye relief
(about average). Not much in the way of off center physically, but 9 MOA
doesn't take much anyway (<1mm?). Any recommendations on adjusting the
base to accomodate (can it?), is it best to get Remington to R&R the
receiver (would they?), should I just get an aftermarket receiver(Money
is not an issue here, and from whom? [proper British, just saw the Partriot]),
or just live with it?
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 03:50:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 38.31.4.38)
FAL/StG58 Accuracy:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 04:31:54 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Orion: I have a buddy that tried to work a FAL into a sniper rifle
because he thought it was a better design than my M1A. POSSIBLY in a rack
grade (POSSIBLY, certainly not definitely!!!) and I would consider my M-25
to be a 3/4 MOA rifle. Sure, I've shot several 1/3 MOA's, but I consider
it a 3/4 because that's what I KNOW it'll go into if I do my part. My buddies
rifle I would consider about a 1+ MOA rifle. Surprising enough, about 3/4
MOA is about the best I've seen his shoot, and I've not heard anything
from him about doing significantly better when I wasn't around. Now for
the bad side. His is HEAVY, and the majority of the mass is forward. Has
a heft much akin to a target type SR-25, with a similar balance. Of course,
this is only one rifle, so your mileage may vary. As far as a service rifle
(rack grade) goes, I doubt seriously you'll find anything significantly
better than a good FAL. Hard for me to say a M1A is better than the FAL
or the HK-91 (real one), but I chose the M1A. And I would again, but I
think the margin of "betterness" could be measured in Angstroms, after
you'd changed out all the commercial M1A parts for US GI good hardened
parts for them to compare. For a sniper weapon, I'd take my M-25 any day
over my buddies hot rodded FAL, or even the hot rodded G3. Hope this helps.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, July 10,
2000 at 06:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.154)
Reloaders,
I am going to use the Rooster Red Zambini for the lube. I just have
a few questions for the bullet casters out there. Do you make your own
Linotype from adding tin to wheel weights or is it still available. I have
about 50 pounds of the stuff, but I want more.
I have some OLD moulds that are no longer in production anymore
too. I hope to use them to see how they compare in accuracy to todays designs.
Well gota jet.
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 06:34:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.170.184.143)
Hello !
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 09:48:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 212.16.98.50)
James R. Jarrett wrote "The honoring of a debt is subsumed within the
larger definition of honor in my opinion"......
NJ, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:06:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Orion:
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:25:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.10.134.116)
Terry W,
I have a friend who has done a couple of palm swells on VS stocks
and used "Bondo" The same stuff you use to fix wrecked cars with. I have
only taken "Off" palm swells on the left side of the PSS stocks and I use
fiberglass for that and it works great.
I finally have gotten my 6.5x284 ironed out, I traded the one I
had for another one with a heavier barrel and a chamber that wasn't quite
so tight. The old one shot the Winchester brass fine and would chamber
and shoot the Norma but I would get early pressure with it so I was stuck
with Winchester brass or recutting the chamber. The new one loves the Norma
brass and is starting to really come around. So far it seems to like the
140 AMAX the best at long range. I really appreciateo lir help on the chamber
and reamer differences.
Like many of you I have had the nagging thought of will it make
a difference or not?? My smith, who is also an honest man and a friend,
says don't waste your money on a problem you may not have. He said if you
have a good barrel and its doing something its "NOT" suppose to then try
it. I had a SS fluted 25-06,with and after market barrel, that when it
warmed up would "Lift" the group up and to the right about three quarters
of and inch to and inch all the time. Now this may have been a stress problem
that could have been corrected by cryoing but I shot it out before cryo
so we will never no(HA).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Sorry that should have been "KNOW" not "NO" Hey its monday "OK"!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Okay Bravo. I'm not sure if I've asked this before of you, but how
much would an M-25 set me back, cost wise? What round does it shoot? Would
I need to do anything to make it more accurate? How many rounds does the
magazine hold? Are they set up for a scope? Where would I manage to find
one for purchase? What is the maximum elevation of Mt. Everest?
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:51:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
Heikki,
BIG CITY , BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 14:08:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.105.164)
Pat,
North <Kettlebelly@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, Missouri, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 14:31:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 134.32.107.226)
North,
I know what you mean, my dad had a pre 64 Wincheste in a feather
weight 30-06 and the first couple were right there, after that you had
no idea where it might put them. The 25-06 was a #5 Lilja, about .700 on
the end, so it was no light weight barrel.
A week or so ago I tought a school on long range shooting and learning
to use the mil dot scope to the State Patrols SWAT teams and we discovered
and interesting thing that I thought some of you may be interested in.
We were miling white IPSC targets out to around 600yds and all the guys
were miling them by a tenth larger than they were to the man. I tried miling
them and got the same results as they did. I then remembered that I had
read in my info that when miling a bright target on a bright day subtract
one tenth and when miling on a dark day with a dark target add a tenth.
When doing this they were able to come up with the range nearly to the
yard on some of them. I was telling Pablito about this and asked him if
he had run into it and he said he hadn't but we decided to check with Rick
B. so I did and he sort of confirmed it but said it may have been more
mirage doing it. I hope to get out again and try it with the same targets
and then turn them around to the brown side and see if it makes a difference.
I would be interested in any other thoughts some of you may have on it
if you have run into this on occasions where it has been bright and sunny
on a white target. I am sure Rick or Gooch could explain it a lot better
than I can if it is and actual occurrence. I had not run into it before
and thought it might be an interesting fact to share with you if you don't
already know about it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 16:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Pat...
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 16:58:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
'lito
Thats what I intend on doing to see if I can tell the difference.
Rick said its not always a given that it will do it, so it may be just
another one of those things we have to worry about. I told him I wanted
him to say that it would "Always" be that way, not another one of these
maybe things we need to think about when miling(HA) Say did you ever Teflon
coat the 40X yet??
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 18:51:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
James: my private beer stock, as with shooting time, too much is never
enough. Although we certainly agree about the FAL, a very good friend of
mine displayed for me one thing that I remember to this day which keeps
the HK in my "lineup", although I don't own one anymore. Although you have
certainly valid points about ergonomics. His contention was that the HK
with it's "brass shredder" chamber would perform in conditions in which
other rifles wouldn't. His statement came from a demonstration performed
by a HK rep utilizing a G3 in auto, some regular 147 FMJ, and a tube of
Crest toothpaste. I took him to task and said "prove it!". So he did. Hence,
since one could coat the ammo with something as sticky and textured as
Crest tooth paste, roll it in the dirt, load it all in a mag with only
a SLIGHT perfunctory wipe of the fingers, and not have a single malfunction
in 100 rounds, it's still impressive to me! When I was paring down gas
guns in search of the illusive "perfect rifle" (for me, subjective), the
first one I got rid of was the HK (Springfield copy), as I don't shoot
as well with it as the others. The second one to go was the FAL. I truly
regret that move, although at the time it seemed a good one. I kept the
M1A, as my opinion is that the M-14 is the better battle rifle, although
I certainly won't quibble with anyone on the FAL. Both have their good
points, and both have their "not quite as strong" points. Neither have
truly bad points. I can guarentee you this. A man with a GOOD FAL is truly
well armed. But IMHO, so is a man with a GOOD M1A. Besides, everyone knows
that chocolate is better than strawberry ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, July 10,
2000 at 19:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.166)
Heikki,
I too wonder about the British Radway ball ammo. I have a quantity
of that I purchased for my 91-A2. I hate picking up brass casings at the
range.
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 19:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.100.170.80)
To all,
Excuse the grammar on my last post, should have proof read.
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 19:45:16 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.100.170.80)
While we are the subject; I have found that when you mill a object
that has clearly defined edges it is best to put the dots off to the side
or above or below the actual target..rather than over the object. There
is a tendency to put the center cross on one edge for a starting point
but I find I'm more accurate when I use the dots at the side for that too.
There could be disagreement with that and possibly it doesn't follow current
practice but it works for me. Comment? One should confirm that his mil
dots are indeed accurate for the way he looks at the target by using a
1 yard square or something similiar at 1000 just to be sure it does work.
(redundant perhaps).
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 20:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Maybe a touch off subject, but kind of related. I've used some of "The
Origional Naval Jelly Brand" stuff to remove surface rust from presses,
dies, etc from the basement flood. What I got was the hot pink "Rust Dissolver".
This stuff works! The dies and lock rings look shiny as new! Guess I took
care of my stuff well enough, only the outsides of the dies were bad except
for one or two, but now everything looks right, and I can sleep again.
I'd really recommend it for anyone with "extreme basement humidity disorder".
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the rust free basement, still polishing, in the, USA - Monday, July
10, 2000 at 20:59:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.237)
Heikki,
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 21:25:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.93.222.165)
James Jarrett..... Yuppies and fags wearing Spandex and sandals?
What did you expect? Their parents were the hippies and yippies
who were spitting at us and cursing us when we were coming home
from SEA. We have a "President" who is supposed to be responsible
for running the country and for taking care of his family, and he
makes fools out of them, as well as all of us, by not even being
able to keep his d**k in his pants in the Oval Office of all places'
As a young teenager my dad used to remind me "Don't s**t where you
eat and never wipe off your d**k with your paycheck. It's insulting
to the cook, and defiant to the boss". It seems that the American
public didn't rise up and punish Clinton for his disrespect because
they're all busy day trading, joining Million Hillary marches
driving $50K SUV's, and oh yes- wearing Spandex and sandals. Best
bet is to catch a bunch of them in front of you while going about
60 in your pickup- then make like they weren't there:-))
There may be no hope for this nation. Al S.
;b>Padisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 22:21:05 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.64.144)
K&P Barrels,
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 22:32:08 (ZULU) (your host
address: 203.97.45.175)
Does anyone know what Tasco's warrenty policy is?
Sad Shooter <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 23:42:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Sad Shooter...
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 00:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Guys,
First I'd like to thank 'Lito, Gooch, CDC and especially Jerry Rice
for the advice on tuning up my PSS. (I'm the grad student/musician guy
who posted last week) I think everyone would agree that when Jerry adds
his "two cents", that "two cents" is priceless!!That tells you something
when a kick-ass gunsmith says to just do the trigger, bed it , and shoot
the damn thing. No fancy high dollar crap, just honesty. Thanks Jerry!!
Anyway, CHEAP MK 4 M3 ALERT!!!....while visiting my 'rents in Allentown
PA, I saw that a local Army-Navy store has one Mk4 M3 priced at $975.00ish,
but all Leupolds there are currently 10% off the marked price...including
the Mk4! Unfortunately I'm too broke to get it, but I figured since I've
gotten so much valuable info in the past from you guys, I should let you
all know about it and if any of you are in the Allentown area to check
it out. Thanks a million, later...
Rich S <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer-"the city that breeds", MD, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000
at 00:45:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.16.152.48)
Guys,
First I'd like to thank 'Lito, Gooch, CDC and especially Jerry Rice
for the advice on tuning up my PSS. (I'm the grad student/musician guy
who posted last week) I think everyone would agree that when Jerry adds
his "two cents", that "two cents" is priceless!!That tells you something
when a kick-ass gunsmith says to just do the trigger, bed it , and shoot
the damn thing. No fancy high dollar crap, just honesty. Thanks Jerry!!
Anyway, CHEAP MK 4 M3 ALERT!!!....while visiting my 'rents in Allentown
PA, I saw that a local Army-Navy store has one Mk4 M3 priced at $975.00ish,
but all Leupolds there are currently 10% off the marked price...including
the Mk4! Unfortunately I'm too broke to get it, but I figured since I've
gotten so much valuable info in the past from you guys, I should let you
all know about it and if any of you are in the Allentown area to check
it out. Thanks a million, later...
Rich S <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer-"the city that breeds", MD, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000
at 00:57:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.16.152.48)
Heikki and any others interested in Radway Green;
All of this ammo that I have seen had the cases marked "Not For
Tropical Use".While this should not be an issue in Finland it would seem
to indicate that this ammo doesn't like humidity which can also be generated
by gross swings in temperature,which could be an issue anywhere in the
world.I have shot quite a bit of this ammo through a .308 Garand and it
works well.I guess another thought may be the higher temperatures in the
tropics could drive pressures and MV up to an unsafe level for the gas-guns.Any
of you Europeans been exposed to this ammo know the story?
BruceE <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 01:38:10 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.198.58)
Sad Shooter, where did you get the Tasco from?If it was SWFA I'd call
Chris there and let him know what happened. They are great with customer
service. I know because I had a few problems and they helped out. If it
was somewhere else then call them. It's not Tasco's fault and I know they
won't cover it or fix it. Hope this helps.
Rob <firestud42@aol.com>
CT, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 01:55:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.197.188)
I was wondering what advantages or disadvantages the Taso Super Sniper
milldot fixed scopes had over the Long Range/Tactical custom shop 8-40x56
milldot scopes. I was also wondering if the Long Range/Tactical would make
a wuality sniper scope. Any input at all would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
S Mohabbat <smohabbat@earthlink.net>
St. Louis , MO, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 02:34:58 (ZULU)
(your host address: 24.217.62.60)
Guys,
Just FYI
The Badlands Tactical Training Center will be conducting a Basic
Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle school, the 19th - 22nd of October,
2000 at the Badlands facility in Grandfield, Oklahoma. Instructor for the
course will be SFC Steve Suttles, a former Marine Corp Sniper in Vietnam,
(63 confirmed) and current instructor at the National Guard Scout Sniper
School. Course will cover the following topics: Care and maintenance of
the rifle, Basic fundamentals of marksmanship, range estimation techniques,
shooting positions, ballistics, effects of weather on ballistics, wind
calculations and estimations, observation techniques, data book management,
and field shooting from 100 to 1000 yards. Cost of this course is $250.00,
and students will be provided a TRGT data book for their rifle. Applications
must be recieved NLT 5 OCT 2000. For further information, contact me. Thanks..Bobby
Whittington
Bobby Whittington <bobbywhit@hotmail.com>
Grandfield, OK, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 02:51:19 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.71.44.21)
ON the targets miling out bigger on white targets... I've found that
this is usually due to glare off of the target. I and most other instructors
will tell you to keep track of your readings and compare them to the actual
distances in various light conditions so you will notice trends. This includes
with the naked eye and ranging reticle patterns like the mildot, stadia
lines etc. Its another example of
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 03:13:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.153)
ON the targets miling out bigger on white targets... I've found that
this is usually due to glare off of the target. I and most other instructors
will tell you to keep track of your readings and compare them to the actual
distances in various light conditions so you will notice trends. This includes
with the naked eye and ranging reticle patterns like the mildot, stadia
lines etc. Its another example of "train, document, and evaluate". Just
like shooting.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 03:14:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.153)
Goochster...
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 11:20:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
James R. Jarrett
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 12:05:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 193.212.93.33)
HEXA, Regarding the British L2A2 ammo. So far I am using the tables
for the M80 round for drop and wind drift. Just seemed to be a good place
to start. My Chrony is telling me that the velocity is around 2500 fps
with an average velocity spread of about 80 fps. The published Data says
2600 for the M80. The temp that day was right at 97 Deg. F. (101 with heat
index) the stuff seems to be reasonably good ammo, alittle dirty. I only
fired 40 rds of it and I am still working on the drop and drift data for
it. We belted up 4000 rds of it to fire through our H&K 21 and it functioned
great for the 1500 rds of it we fired through that weapon. It was very
acurate on single and 3 shot burst. All of the rounds hit the 8" steel
at 200 yrds on three shot burst.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 13:54:14 (ZULU)
(your host address: 158.252.73.137)
Rob... (firestud!)
SWFA can't do anything... But consider that Tasco's cost on these
from whatever country they're made in (this week), is nada... and you send
them a NICE letter, it's in their faver to send you a new one for what
they wholesale it to jobbers for... they don't loose a penny, and they
have a loyle customer for life.
I sent it to Bush, and told them it was a very nice scope, but must
be out of alignment, because the everything you looked at, had color fringes
around it, so would they please align it for my son, who LOVES IT!
Well of course it wasn't out of alignment, it was a turd that was
disco'ed for good reason... but 6 days later, I got back a 4x12-40mm target
scope that discounts for about $190, with an appology for not being able
to fix the little scope, because the "...didn't have parts any more".
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 13:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
TorF...
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 14:09:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
HEXA, Sorry 'bout that last post....I reread it and it seemed a bit
disjointed...I'm home in a wheel chair with two broken legs. I'm under
the influence of heavy pain medication. As soon as It wears off a bit,
I will try to get someone to go upstairs and find the Chrony tape and tell
you what the machine printed out.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 14:13:11 (ZULU)
(your host address: 158.252.73.137)
FYI
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 14:26:55 (ZULU) (your host
address: 204.24.102.133)
Lito' "Surrender the Mall!" will be our battle cry... Bring on the
occupation forces. They won't even need weapons to rape and pillage here.
I'm not sure what James was referring too. He can explain it himself
without any help from the likes of me.... but there are attentions to a
NATO force being used to suppress the so called "militia" forces (that's
everybody that owns a gun and still remembers freedom guarantees of the
U.S. Constitution). That would be my conjured up version of a European
enemy at this moment in time. Truth is there is paranoia on both sides
and it's causing lots of problems not yet dealt with. Most of us don't
'really' believe in the shopping mall grab conspiracy by your outlaw government
over there but we look forward to Pablito's version of it. Some of us here
see it as the only way to be rescued from the tyranny that is the Feminist
politically correct march on freedom that we are subject too these days.
Seriously, There is geniune concern over here and many don't like to see
NATO commanding U.S. troops for a number of reasons.
Partly based upon feedback from some of our forces under NATO command
now!
Which brings me too.
If you haven't seen "Patriot". Do so... Hopefully the use of the
word "Militia" will finally be understood by those bold enough to view
it and remember where we have been. It will remind you that your freedom
is your own responsibility and you'd better be ready to accept it and die
for it or you will lose it.
I say this not so much for those here on SC that I know who are
already dedicated to these principals but for those who read SC but don't
quite grasp where freedom comes from. We all want the same thing and all
have conjured up different enemies we seek to protect freedoms welfare
from. It's to the loose cannons who scan us and think they are saving democracy
through enforcement of the very ill conceived controls and laws that seek
to destroy it. If this sounds like crap too you and revolutionary BS or
Subversive talk... go to the nearest mirror and see the real problem with
this country that James J. talks about. Good morning Iowa! Hope I've made
your day.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:04:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
A little update:
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:25:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
198.246.200.2)
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:37:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.24.102.133)
On the G3 versus what ever thing, The G3 has many faults: It is not
well balanced and feels heavier than both the FAL and the M14. It has sites
with no windage adjustment and only adjustments for elevation to 400 meters(hardly
battle rifle distances) The safety lever is not ergonomic (hard to reach
with fingers under 10" long while in a firing position) and does not shoot
as well as either a M14 or FAL does. It is sealed to the outside crap fairly
well. It has no gas adjustments so it uses heavy recoil to work all the
time. This causes wear on the parts. A plus is it ejects cases so far and
hard you can turn the weapon sideways and hit the bad guys with the spent
cases. NO BOLT HOLD OPEN (BAD IDEA) To me it ios like fighting with a rock
that shoots.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:55:31 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.193.28)
On Battle Rifles,
I respect both James and Torfs opinions to the up most and I know
James met no disrespect to Torf or anyone else. I read one of the best
articles a few years back I have read on battle rifles. They took all the
30 cal rifles and tested them side by side for accuracy,ergonomics reliability
and everything else they could think of. To make a really long story short
the bottom line was that the FN was considered to be the best of the best.
The one major draw back was the rear sights with no protection. They found
it outshot the M-14,the Gali and the H&K and felt that the barrels
on the FNs were near match quality. They also tested them with scopes and
the FN with open sights outshot the M-14 with a scope.(Sorry Bravo) These
debates are like what's better, red heads or blondes its a lot of times
a personal choice. There are good and bad features on them all and they
will all do the job just fine. I wouldn't be afraid to go to war with any
of them!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 16:25:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
I hope we didn't lose anything here.
Marius
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:11:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Well, I've calmed down somewhat after discovering that I had been
struck by vandals. My Tasco SS10x42 which never even made it to a rifle
mount was destroyed by a hammer.
Pete Robertson (Sad Shooter) <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:28:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Pablito, I will do better than email I will put the info on here.
Section 11460 of the Calif Penal Code
" )a) Any two or more person who assemble as a paramilitary organization
for the purposes of practicing with weapons shall be punished by imprisonment
in the county jail for not more than one year or a fine of not more than
1000.00
(b)(1) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any other person
the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or destructive
device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing
or having reason to know or intending that such objects or techiques will
be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of a civil disorder,
or any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose
of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any
firearm explosive, or destructive device, or techique capable of causing
injury or death to persons, with the intent to cause or further civil disorder,
shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than
one year or a fine of not more than 1000.00
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:43:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Texas Brigade Armory
Does anyone know if there is something up with Texas Brigade Armory
or Mike Lau? I ordered a rifle back in Oct. 1998. I no longer want to wait
for the rifle, so I wrote him a month and a half ago telling him that I
wanted my money back. After several weeks had gone by, I started e-mailing
him trying to see what is up. Last week I left a message on his machine,
but still no response. Is there something I don't know about or is he just
ignoring me? He owes me over $1700. I am a former marine and I am now in
college. I need my money back to help pay for my college. I would take
the rifle if he would send it, then at least I could sell it. My next step
is to try and take him to small claims court. If anyone out there knows
him, let him know that that I want my money back.
Reno, Nv, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:49:59 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.195.182)
I am sorry, I forgot to give you the Penal Code def. of Civil disorder:
" Civil dosorder means any disturbance involving acts of violence which
cause an immediate danger of or results in damage or injury to the property
or person of any other individual".
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:01:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Undude
Wasn't there a case in the Los Angeles area about this very same
issue? I think it was right about the same time as the North Hollywood
shootout.If I remember correctly,there was a reserve officer from one of
the smaller agencies in LA county that was conducting training for a group
of citizens in "dynamic entry" for lack of a better word.The students were
not gangsters but local bussinessmen.The media had a field day with the
confiscated weapons put on display.
Does anyone else recall this event?
Scouts out.
Mark P.
Mark Perez <mkprz@keepandbeararms.com>
phoenix, az, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:11:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 159.87.93.65)
I WAS LOOKING THRU YOUR SITE AND THOUGHT I WOULD ADD MY OWN COMMENTS
ON GLOCKS. I CARRY ON A DAILY BASES, HERE IN TEXAS (HOUSTON) I HAVE AN
GLOCK 21 WHICH IS A .45 THE PERFICT ROUND AND THE PERFICT HANDGUN FOR OUR
CLIMATE HERE (HOT AND DAMP), MY COLT OFFICERS MOD. JUST WANTED TO RUST
BUT IS A VERY GOOD WORK HORSE. BUT FOR A CARRY GUN HERE YOU HAVE TO GO
WITH WHAT DOES THE JOB FOR THE AREA YOU LIVE IN, TOPED OFF WITH NIGHT SITES
AND A QUALITY GALCO HOLSTER IT'S A COMBO THAT CAN'T BE BEAT. I'M NOT A
COP BUT I DO HOLD A CONCELD WEAPONS PERMIT HERE. FOR BACK UP, I USE A RUGER
P95 IN 9mm, NOT A GREAT ROUND BUT IT DOES WORK. THANKS FOR THE TIME TO
ADD MY COMMENTS.
Kimbo Heslep <Kimbo@thehuntingtrail.net>
La Porte, Tx, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:41:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.102.49.210)
Jeff,
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:44:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.3.204.222)
UnDude,
It seemes to me that if you teach police officers and it is not
your official duty, i.e. you and James run a course, you could be arrested
for teaching other police officers!
Mike Lau never checks his email. I have never had a problem contacting
him over the phone. You may want to try calling again. He has been getting
a lot of criticism as of late for a lack of customer service. Too bad,
he used to be pretty good about it.
Does anybody consider the AR-10 a worthwhile battle rifle? I know
that the issue of it as a sniper rifle has been beaten to death but they
are reliable aren't they? They are more user friendly and lighter than
the G3, FAL or M14. The AR15 is as reliable as it gets.
God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:58:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.5.194)
Gentlemen:
Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@BellSouth.COM>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 21:36:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 139.76.64.4)
me gustaria tener datos sobre cargas para tiro a largas distancias
desde 200, 300, 400, 500 metros para conpetir en siluetas metalicas , las
cargas mas presisas en los calibres 3006 150 gr. y 168gr. , 308 en 150gr.,
168gr. y en .243 en 100gr.
luis arturo garcia
garcia <granlabrasdor@hotmail.com>
culican , sinaloa, mexico - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 21:42:17 (ZULU)
(your host address: 200.52.178.204)
Armalite (Inc.) AR-10 as battle rifle:
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 22:11:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
Maybe someone out there can answer me a question or two here. The
word is US Army Mech Infantry units are having a change in MTO&E by
adding two more sniper teams per company, or so this company sniper has
been told. My first question is does anyone know if this is true? Next
is if this is the case,where do these snipers fall in the Chain of Command?
Are they a platoon asset of still a company one? If any body has a contact
at Army Infantry Sniper School, please try and hook me up. Thanks.
Jon <m21sws@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 22:50:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.199.22)
Just to clear up some confusion, my scope wasn't damaged in shipping.
SWFA packaged it well. It was damaged during a break-in.
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 23:35:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Guess my post got deleted, so here we go again. Am I the only one
who noticed the date jump right after the down time?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic continuing it's decline, formerly the proud country,
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 23:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.148)
John in Ohio: the Army announced the plan for more snipers and designated
marksmen in the new "Wheeled/Motorized Brigades" that General Shinseki,
the Army Chief of Staff, has identified for the near-term conversion of
the units at Fort Lewis, Washington. I don't know whether or not that is
at platoon or company level, but to me it sounds like we will start copying
back on some Soviet motorized doctrine, giving a platoon long-gunner a
glassed M16A2 or an M24.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 00:43:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Sorry, john. That should be Directorate of TRAINING and DOCTRINE,
NOT Combat Developments (they do guns and gear).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 00:49:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Mike; your words honor me.
Arturo; I don't speak enough spanish to converse with you about
Metal Sillouettes but I've met some fine Ram shooters from Mexico at Raton
New Mexico in the SW regionals there. I remember a beautiful Mexican Lady
7mm-08 I think she shot,,.who flew in from Mexico City and kicked our yankee
butts now and then. Oh well, that was a long time ago. For those that don't
know, this is off hand (standing) high power shooting at targets 500 meters
away about the size of a large Javelina. It will humble the best of the
best. Chickens start the course about the size of a grouse at 200 meters.
I once arrived at a country course about an hour late on a time mix up.
The gracious folks there decided I deserved to shoot for coming so far
and set up the targets again. I shot 15 out of 40 and apologized for wasting
their time. They handed me the trophy and said I had the course record
so far. They had been shooting 3 months there. The wind blows bad on the
high plains. It had just stopped when I got there in the 104 degree heat
of July. Ah, I got a million of em!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 00:55:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Well boys, I have stirred things up again. I have communicated privately
with Torsten and assured him there was nothing personal in my comment,
but I stand by my assessment based on current geo-political realities.
Some of us have not forgotten the position taken by the northern tier "allies"
during the Viet Nam War. Why would I trust them now?
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 01:11:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
Hey Guys,
Once again I need some advice. I really need to get a sling for
my PSS. I've never shot properly from a sling but I want to learn all the
positions etc. Should I get the books from Jarheadtop.com ( a former Marine,
I'm blanking on his name...it's in the hot links section) and a Turner
Saddlery sling. Or should I go with one of Mike Miller's slings which I've
heard so much about. Will I be able to properly learn all the positions
etc. with his sling or do I need a certain amount of proficiency with a
conventional sling before "graduating" to his quick-cuff one?
Thanks a ton!
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Baltimore 'hon, MD, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 01:23:48 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.16.152.167)
Rich S: I "graduated" from the military loop to Mikes' SLING, and
I'll never go back! The only "downside" to Mikes' sling (I'm pretty sure
this is correct, please correct me if I'm wrong Mike) is it's not CMP legal.
So what? For what we do it's still the best design I've ever encountered
period. Wish I'd known about it long ago. If you spend the cash on a loop,
you're wasting cash.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
watching the country slip sliding away, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000
at 01:58:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.238)
Speaking of FAL's........
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:06:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.56.65)
Guys-Jeff A sounds like he is in need of a point blank range setting.
You ballisticians should be able to set him straight as long as he isn't
going for pinpoint accuracy.
Mictac <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:08:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.188)
About Mike Lau and Texas Brigade Armory. I was at his shop last
week.I spent about 4 hours there. He informed me that he is getting out
rifles as fast as he can. He knows that his customer service is not the
best, but when he turns out a product he says it produces. He also says
he has about 40 orders for his rifles. Also he is a one man operation.
He does not check his e-mail, but keep trying to call him. He will answer
the phone if he is not busy.
SFC PETE CARPENTIER JR TXNG <PETEC690@HOTMAIL.COM>
C.C., TX, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:14:45 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.152.173.31)
Mr Jarrett;
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:17:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.92.14.46)
During the farm protest days the State of Kansas passed a law to
prevent the training of "paramilitary" groups. The "posse" had some nice
camping trips to Colorado. (just FYI I wasn't a member). Farmers probably
would or didn't trust me because I worked in town.... But I do own up to
conspiracy theory beliefs just to upset some folks. If it walks like a
duck.....quacks like a duck. There was a neighboring farmer near our place
when I was a kid. One night his barn disappeared
. He said "If I didn't know better I'd thought we had a tornado,
but a tornado would have woke me up!" There's a lesson there somewhere.
(shotguns did very well) handgunners, and semi-autos. The last shot
was a over a barrel(oil drum) to a standard sillouete police target at
120 yards after a 20 yard quick crawl..and the clock stopped when you hit
a 6" disk at 50'. (Many shooters could not hit that disk after the run
and couldn't stop their time). My mini-14 won because of a couple of things.
It was reliable and had quick sighting aim point sights and large clips.
2nd place was a gunner with a MP-5 9mm. I had him on time only and those
2 120 yard shots. He said it was the rifle ammo and goaded me into running
the course with my 1911 Custom Colt. . My time with the colt and the target
points was exactly the same as his so we decided to shoot it off at 50
meters. There was 1 target.. a 3 second pop up target and remember that
only the two best counted. When the MP-5 Jammed he had fired over 20 shots.
I fired one from the .45 to dead center mass. There were no holes in his
target. Mine had also 1 9mm hole.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:35:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
Mictac, when did you go to one of Gunner Julians courses? He was
my OIC for a couple of months at Quantico before I shipped over to the
sniper course.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 03:16:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.157)
Un-Dude Mike,
Welcome back - Baaaaaaaaaaaah!
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 03:20:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.196.57)
Rosterfarians,
Marius <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 07:13:21 (ZULU) (your host
address: 196.25.27.66)
Greetings Folks!
Charles aka JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 08:39:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 204.156.137.61)
Guys, FYI Again
The Badlands Tactical Training Center, Grandfield, OK, will be conducting
a Basic Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle course the 19th -22nd of October,
2000. Instructor for this course will be SFC Steve SUTTLES, former Marine
Corp Sniper in Vietnam, (63 confirmed) and current instructor with the
National Guard Scout Sniper School. This class will cover:Sniper team composition,
resposibilities of team members, range estimation techniques, basic fundamentals
of marksmanship, wind formulas, ballistics, effects of weather on ballistics,
care and maintenance of the sniper rifle, and other basic topics. There
will be field firing from 100-1000 yrds. Cost of this course is $250, and
students will be provided with a TRGT Data book. Applications must be recieved
NLT 05 OCT 00. For more information or applications, contact me. Thanks!
Bobby Whittington <bobbywhit@hotmail.com>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 12:40:33 (ZULU) (your
host address: 164.58.0.36)
Bruce: I know you lurk. As I sit down to read the roster today with
a big bowl of REAL chili, four words spring to mind: "God bless Bruce Robinson"!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
taking a LONG lunch break in the, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at
18:08:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Bravo,
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:26:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.215.104.163)
Texas Brigade Armory update.
Breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:43:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.3.204.222)
1) How many of you shooters have a throat erosion gage? How important
is it, and if you shooters recommend that I get one, then where do I find
one for my .308 rifle?
B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
Dallas, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:49:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 170.97.67.7)
Bravo...
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:50:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
We need to take the wooden rifles out of schools. These things are
dangerous. A child could get a splinter. The splinter could get infected.
The infection could lead to blood poisoning. Blood poisoning could lead
to death. It if will save only one child...
How can removing wooden rifles help with anything? You can't learn
to shoot a wooden rifle. The only thing you learn is how to hold a piece
of wood and walk around together in a unified manner. By that logic they
should ban marching bands.
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:55:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.4.47)
Rosterfarians,
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 19:53:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 155.239.196.43)
Shooter...
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 20:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Undude,
It sounds as if that Communistfornia penal code puts all Martial
Arts, Martial Sport, Self-Defense, Boxing and the all popular "kickboxing"
classes out of business. I'm sure the rest of you could make this list
a mile long. Move to Texas, you'll love it.
D. Hurley <DenHurley@aol.com>
Tyler, Tx., USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 20:35:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 172.140.182.39)
Thanks for the Mech info, Dave. I spent my active duty time in Airborne
and Light Infantry, so we were in the Scout Platoons and had a lot of operationsl
freedom. Getting employed in a Mech Company has been a challange.
Jon <M21SWS@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 21:43:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.204.206)
Gooch-
went to his class during the summer of 98 I believe. Honestly it
may have been last year....I will have to dig out the certificate to check.
Went to several during the last couple years and the dates seem to blur.
He was supposed to come back and do a level 2 course later that year but
he had something come up and take priority.
Julian is a good man- he REALLY lives the sling. Couple real funny
stories about the FBI at Quantico (FBI= famous but incompetant)
Mictac <MicTac@AOL.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 22:09:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.59)
Throat Erosion Gauges:
Still working on gettin' a lathe...
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 22:44:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
Gooch, I got a copy of the article you were looking for off the
Pentagon Library microfilms. It's "Countersniper missions in operations
other than war," out of the November-December 95 copy of Infantry magazine.
I'm putting it in an envelope and mailing to you as soon as I send this.
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 22:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
'lito,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 23:09:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.215.104.23)
James Jarrett, my friend, when the US wears powder blue UN crap
we can alternate between sling and 50 shooting. No low shots though it
will mean the US lost its balls. Lets hope we get a President next time
that uses his upper brain more than his lower one. Go Bush!
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 23:17:56 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.196.53)
I would like to purchase a good accurate, sinper/hunting
rilfe. I was concidering a Remmington Sendero in 300 Win. Mag..
Would this be a good rifle? I know it's a heavy gun for
hunting, but I want a heavy barrel with a big caliber.
Also what about scopes? What kind should I get?
I really don't want to spend anymore than $1200.00 total.
(Is that possible?) Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ben at obie_ben@hotmail.com .
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 23:37:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.114.8.172)
Mike and James: I think that the league of nations goons would be
our BEST enemy on our soil. After all, nothing shows like blue, red, or
yellow in the field. Gotta love that one! As far as I'm concerned, any
troop or soldier on our soil not wearing the US flag (uninvited) is enemy.
This obviously DOES NOT apply to our German allied fly boys in Alamogordo
and such, but any troop blatantly violating the Constitution via force
with the citizenry is asking for forced early retirement in the west anyway.
Or as a Patron called it "long range political resolution". Besides, when
the the un ever do anything right?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic under fire, formerly known as the, USA - Thursday,
July 13, 2000 at 00:01:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.132)
Bruce...
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Bravo...
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:09:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Mike, there are some units that never left the CAR-15 (Colt 723/M4).
Funny that everyone's copying the Army's lead. The only guy that needed
the MP5 (SD) was the guy in front who might have to take it quiet so that
the furball didn't start before everyone on our side is ready.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Dave L., I hate to say it but you are wrong. The Mini 14 is a far
superior BOAT ANCHOR to any other 22.3cal weapon. LOL Funny thing is I
have stuck with the CAR15 since 1981 when I started with this. I shoot
the MP5's a great deal but the CAR rules. To keep the blast down put a
can on it!
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:45:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.12.105.158)
Anybody here had their Model 700 converted to M-14 magazines by
Robar?
dan <danr@acnet.net>
Deep South, Texas, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:52:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 170.76.45.211)
Patrons Dave and Mike: could you be a little more clear on your
positions with the mini? I didn't quite get the jist. Really, I was just
questioning which would be money better spent, the $450+ for a new mini
or the $600+ on parts for the CAR. Guess I got my answer. Now all I gotta
convince my gunsmith is that I don't need the Jewel trigger, A2 stock (instead
of the CAR aluminum one), a custom turned stainless barrel, etc.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana and chile republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday,
July 13, 2000 at 01:38:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.143)
Dan from Texas,
I had the M14 mag conversion done to 1 of my R700's. Good workmanship
and it functions very well. Get you one or two spare mags, so you can switch
ammo type PDQ, and practice with it. I load AP in one of the mags. The
drop will be different when switching loads, so(dare I say it) practice
some more on your ammo switch and drop. The difference is nill at 100m,
but go past 200m for a real eye opener. Some will poo-poo the mag-fed bolt
gun,
I like mine. The Robar conversion is 1st rate! Be sure that is what you
want before you let them commence to cuttin'.
Outta here.
Mike, surely them rings got there by now!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 01:47:19 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.76.148.51)
Bravo, My mini-14 is fun as well, but I can't hit poop at 100 yards
with it unless it is larger than a 5 gallon bucket! I have a bunch of the
original 20 and 30 round mags for it as well. I bought it years ago and
I just can't part with it, I just don't shoot it anymore!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, Ca, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 02:38:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
Dan from Texas. GO the HS precision detachable box mag approach.
Go here for why http://www.snipercountry.com/M14_Magazines.htm
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 03:08:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.173)
Better late than never,
Ruuuuu, Ruuuug, Ruuugeeee.................???????
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 03:11:59 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.47)
PeteR: didn't you get the memo? Habaneros (SP?) were ruled pure
evil.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Still drinking home brew in the, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 04:09:43
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.174)
Please don't take me for a Mini 14 advocate but.... The accuracy
is questionable at ranges beyond 100 yards but it does work with reliable
efficency. I must admit that my CAR's and other AR-15's have not measured
up to the performance of it with reliability of function the main concern.
Most AR problems are tracable to ammo but the same stuff is readily digested
by the Ruger or quickly cleared. It's a real arguing point with a lot of
people and a man should use what he has confidence in. There's nothing
wrong with the gas system in a Mini 14 that I know off. The barrel they
put on them is a real POS. Partly it is by quirk of nature that it works
so good but many people will swear by it. In a full auto role it is also
questionable.
As a close range weapon to replace pistols or a second light weight
weapon with semi auto capability it works quite well in spite of what is
generally thought. Just my two centavo! Don't let that CAR jam on you cause
if it does your toast if the other cat has a Mini cause it won't go non
function because of a damaged case.
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 04:20:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Bravo:
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 04:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
Anyone tried the Berger 185s in a .308 with Varget. Can you get
2600 out of them? Im real close to giving up on the 168s and 748. Tempature
sensitivity is driving me nuts.
Im thinking at this point that I must be a pretty shitty shot or
else im going to a overbore magnum. Hes going "whats all the fuss this
is easy, i didnt even think i could hit the paper, i wasnt even trying"
Carryerofthesacredrock/plate <shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 07:50:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
15.254.49.1)
Hi folks,
I'm thinking to order a Chandler M40A3 300 WM,I need your opinion
about ordering it with/witout a 26" Hart cryo barrel.
Thanks a lot for your attention.
M.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 10:57:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.35.203)
OK!! Now it's getting down to the real GREEN - C-H-I-L-E-S !!!!!
AND if you don't believe me I'll get the address of a couple growers in
Hatch - HOME of the BEST - read ONLY - chiles in the western hemisphere
worth talking about!! I'm talking chiles here not those jalopena things,
REAL chile!
Hey Bruce is this enough!!
Nobody believes we are even part of the United States anyway - that's
why we had to put USA on our lisence plates!!
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NEW MEXICO, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 12:40:20 (ZULU)
(your host address: 206.245.243.234)
Bravo; see how much trouble I can get you in, better be nice to
me...
James; I think Bravo is taking my heat on the mini. Mostly I shoot
the mini on occassion as a preference over the Colts, Bushmasters and others
that have let me down. I'm not likely to employ either one in a serious
situation unless there is no other firearm around. At close range I'd rather
have a 870 12ga. Like you said .223 is real good up close for tearing its
way to the target and delivering a good punch.
I've used CARS and up to the Colt Elite with all kinds of mickey
mouse problems. For Autos they are probably the most accurate in the game
but the fun stops there. In the places I've used them It's more of a lesser
of two evils in my book. As for Ruger...I always buy mine used...I don't
support their leader at all. It sucks to have to use one. Ah, shucks I've
been backed into a corner. I'll have to list what I like about the mini...
1. The stock is what I'm used too; shaped like a rifle.
2. The bolt is accessible and strong when something jams. as opposed
to that ridiculous charging lever that bends and breaks.
3. I like pistol grips on pistols but they get in my way on a rifle.
4. I like the stainless steel of the Ranch Rifle.
5. The Scope mount is strong and stainless steel and placed the
right distance above the gun for proper shooting.
6. I actually do pretty well with their sights. The ghost ring on
the Ranch rifle allows as good a group as the rifle will shoot. IT's a
bit flimsy. I use Aim points or low power scopes for primary sights.
7. The weight is the lightest of anything except the strip down
CARS.
(I would ask why anyone would use a car if length and weight were
not the reason...?)
8. The safety is right in the trigger guard and if it's on ,you
feel it when the finger goes in and no other finger movement is required.
9. It's easy to take down and access without tools and has no small
things with springs everwhere that will fly apart.
10. The clips are barely acceptable and a little slow but as good
as a lot of others. There is a distinctive snap and you know they are going
to work and not slide over the round and leave it in the clip. ...but the
5 rounders are completely contained in the stock and don't interfere with
aiming when you're low in the grass.
11. The Ranch throws the round off in the right direction and the
guns don't butcher the brass beyond reloading (the CAR doesn't either).
12. I've got a real fine trigger pull(you won't believe this one)
and sometimes the CAR doesn't reset the hammer and sometimes it recoils
against my finger and give me 2 or three in some contortioned positions
I get in.
13. The CAR is a flimsy piece that impacts change if your holding
it hard with a sling. The Mini doesn't do it and doesn't rattle when you
shake it.
14.It doesn't have a ridiculous "assist" that only assists you in
getting a jam you can't clear without disassembly.
15. The mini is politically correct (James is laughing in the aisle
by now). Ouch bit my tongue on that one!
Just a few things I've noticed there are others.
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 12:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Jeff A,
Welcome back Bud!! Glad to see your trying out some tactical type
shooting. You didn't mention what type of targets you will be shooting
but I would assume probably silhouette targets of some kind. If so I would
zero for around 200 to 300 and favor high or low for the rest and do the
same for windage. You can really lay them in there at a good rate doing
it that way. If your shooting on a silhouette at that distance you should
have no problems with wind or elevation.
Damn good long range round. Don't use the 155s they suck and the
142s fly better anyway. All the 1000yd boys are using the 142s or a variant
of it. I am pushing mine 3000fps and have a load with RL-22 that will do
3100+ but I like to stay at around 3000 with mine using H-4831SC and the
140 AMAX. It has exactly half the wind drift at 1000yds as my 308 and puts
me on a paper plate at 1000yds with around 26 MOAs of elevation and the
142s are better than that but my gun likes the 140 AMAX better, hope this
helps.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 13:28:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Bill R.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 14:02:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
Ben,
You got me on the Jalapenos, I just have not been able to find any
true smoked Chile peppers this close to the dreaded Mason-Dixon line.
The local Quiche eating - Volvo driving - Spandex clad - Sport Bottle
sipping - Friggin Yuppies tend to think McCormicks Black pepper is too
hot for most food. *:-0
big city, by-gawd, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 14:07:24 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.43)
Qeez is it lunch yet? All this CHILE talk is making me hungry. Let's
not forget the key ingredients Tequilla and Dark Beer and the little kidney
beans that soak it all up.
Tony Y <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:06:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.100)
Tony, uuummmm, Kidney beans?
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
Portland, Or, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:25:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.255.9.50)
Tony, and all those who loke the CAR style.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:26:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.167)
Tony:
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:27:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
The trend towards M4's for indoor work-- I should think that noise
would be a big problem. That length of barrel is louder anyway, let alone
in a hallway where it is all bounced right back at you. Can't say I'm en
expert on it, but I have fired a CAR inside and it got my attention even
with good ear protection. Most guys I have talked to about it that are
now using the M4 don't seem concerned about it though. I will say that
IMHO any kind of muzzle brake on a .223 entry gun should be an absolute
no-no. Let all the blast and noise go towards the target. A muzzle brake
will make it unpleasant and dangerous for anybody between 8:00 and 4:00
(min) of you, and if you should get in some kind of tangle where you must
fire with your face near the brake-- bang, you're deaf and blind.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
Bangmore, MI, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:58:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.89.144.147)
Before making my comments let me say thatI do not claim to be an
expert on CQB. I have read that 9mm subsonic outpenetrates the 223 soft
points. There is a long history of over penetration with the 147gr subsonic
that is used in many cqb guns. The 223 is lighter and therefore will slow
down faster after penetrating the target. The high velocity also makes
the bullets tear apart more. Although, in the event of a miss the 223 will
definitely go farther.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 17:10:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.21.196.108)
The Shooter,
For training we used simulated non-functional supressors to keep
the balance of the weapons proper and we always used hearing protection
for training
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 17:28:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.85)
Tony: Kidney beans? I think NOT! Dark beer? Goes with EVERYTHING
;-)
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
where the "scientific method" still is in use, USA - Thursday, July
13, 2000 at 17:54:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
HI everyone i thought you might like to read the news article from
the washington post, about Storm Mountain Training course.
The article is not to flattering but what would you expect from
a news reporter. I get out of the article that it is a very challenging
course were the instructors know the severity of there training and try
to convey that to the students. Pls read and
give opinions.
Trevor <knowledge60@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 18:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.172.142.102)
P.S. i am Canadian nick name Canuck but was notsure
how to change it. I figured it out
Trevor <knowledge60@hotmail.com>
Ontario, Canada - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 19:00:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.172.142.102)
James, and Tony, yes the 223 will zip through foks if you use FMJ
Bullets. We use soft points that put all the energy on the target. The
9mm sub sonic penetrates more than the 223 Soft Points do. So far I have
seen 10 sub sonic 9mm rounds (147 grainers) hit bad guys, not read about,
but seen, all of the rounds went straight through the guys with no expansion.
I know you guys have seen more bad guys hit than me, but I am just reporting
what I have seen with current ammo. The 223's Soft points, I know of made
what I like to refer to as Slush Puppies of the insides of the bad guys.
Fight was over, none of this "Please dont shoot me again, it hurts" When
we talk about rounds we need to understand what type of bullet construction
is used. The 223 also has rounds that just dump all the energy into about
9-10 " of the entry point. Very nasty wounds. The 9mm has similar rounds
but when it expands it does not get deap enough to do the bad guy in quickly.
The Miami FBI incident with 115 grain Silver Tips is an example of this.
Had they hit the bad guy with a 223 the incident would have turned out
differently. The 223 also has the advantage of causing Hydro Static shock,
the 9mm does not generate enough velocity to cause this. I know both of
you know what Hydro Static shock is (hell you could give a better example
than I could) so I wont bother you with an explanation of it.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 19:15:10 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.192)
Mike M,
and using optics.
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 19:35:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.101)
HUm! Mike took the words out of my mouth on the penetration issue.
I remember suggesting varmint grade bullets to LE people over 5 years ago
for close range entry work and having positive feedback about it. The Hornady
SX 55 grainer will kill/stop anything it hits on 2 legs
unless it's a griz standing up...without over penetration as will
the 55 Grain V-max Hornady. FMJ's have no purpose anywhere in .223. ( I
know some of you have to use them) It's a shame. I once shot a running
Jack rabbit 3 times before he rolled over with FMJ's. Wiley would think
he was mosquito bit if you shot him with em. A man will stop and run for
his purple heart and he's a different matter unless he's doped up, mad
and ready to kill you at all cost.
In short they don't penetrate well enough in any mode yet go too
far through the target and don't incapacitate well.
I'm not so sure we disagree that much on the Mini; If you put a
good barrel on it .. it will shoot with the CARS or anything else. Mine
wears jammies or bow paint to take care of the stainless glare although
it's pretty dull it still is easier to spot than Matte Black but it could
be parkerized I believe. I tell you what I'll do some 800 yard with mine
and see what it does just for the hell of it.
Stand by for a report. It'll give me something to do. (I'll see
if I can hit a refrigerator box with it. I would not want to bet against
the colts for accuracy. Same with AK's and even G3's but my greatest nightmare
in a combat situation would be to be armed with M-16's and look out and
see a field of Serbs approaching all armed with HKs in .308.. shudder.
James pardon me for laughing about the Bully and the crybaby with the mini!
I can just imagine...! No, I'm not going to the mat over the mini 14. I
can barely tolerate it as with any semi auto. Mine has more gun safe time
than anything else since I quit the close quarters work. PD's past 100
yards with the aim point sight is very inefficient. I hit about 10 to 15%
at 200 yards on PDs with it. I'll check those sillouettes at 400 just to
compare with what Mike found. I'm gonna guess about 75% hit probablity
at 400 and groups of 60" at 800. You can quote it back to me when I get
the test ran. This will be a out of the box Ranch Rifle with no magnification
and red dot sights. Should be interesting.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 19:53:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Rosterfarians...
Jeff A.
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 20:40:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 139.76.64.4)
Moving targets.
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 21:38:39 (ZULU) (your host
address: 193.212.93.33)
Washington Post Article:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 21:47:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of using steel or copper
bullets for accurate target (paper) shooting. A buddy of mine and I were
discussing it. His theory is that a lighter bullet made of copper and/or
steel would be much faster with the same charge, and therefore more accurate.
Since expansion and hitting power are not important when placing holes
in paper, it would provide a mostly free increase in speed. I know they
HAVE steel bullets (I use armor piercing bullets to hammer into my concrete
bench). I think, though, that there has to be some reason for the really
good benchrest guys to use the standard type of bullet.
manhattan, KS, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 21:59:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.189.101.130)
ON THE GREAT CHILI-CHILE controversy...... The way I heard it the
story goes this way: The word chile is Spanish for the family of
peppers usually grown in warm, arid climates such as habaneros,
etc.
The word chili however stands for a food actually invented north
of
the border in the good ol' USA. It's origin has been claimed by
many
people over the years, from a Texan to a New Yorker of all people!
(I,m not a chef, but I play one in the ol'lady's kitchen)
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Not far from Four Corners in, Colorado, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000
at 23:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.241)
All right guys, I've got a little "business venture" I'm wondering
if you're interested in. As we ALL know, the only sunshade available for
a Leupold Mark 4 scope is the 2.5" non-stackable one from Lupita central.
Anything else MUST be custom made. Well, I'm gonna have one custom made.
I mentioned (under questioning) WHY I wanted it made, and the machinist
says the cost would go WAY down if he was making more than one. Well, if
you wanna get one, let me know. You stipulate the length. Aluminum all
the way, black anodized, just like the Lupita's but longer. C'mon guys,
now's the time if you want one! Also, if you know anyone with one of these
scopes, let them in on this. The more we order, the cheaper they get, and
I NEED cheap right now ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000
at 00:47:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)
Washington post artical...
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 01:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Re: Copper target ammo...(slightly tangential, forgive me)
dan-o <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
mo-town, WV, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 02:36:19 (ZULU) (your host
address: 32.100.242.17)
The Washington (Com)Post says that Storm teaches "...how to drive
a bullet through a brain sized target a full mile away." Hell, I'll bite:
HOW?
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 03:23:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.15)
Patr (on or iot) 'Lito: you're right on that ED ED brown shirt.
There's a LOT of cops (yeah, I hang around with cops time to time) that
are WAY cool and TOP of the line people. THIS is the example of the ones
that aren't. Unfortunately, they give the rest a bad image. Now, after
what this ED ED sucker said, are you as likely to be as "quick to buddy"
with a blue shirt? ED shame. As much as I detest the pernicious porcine
pindlewits that run the press, I have to wonder what the ED ED Rod was
thinking letting one of the ED pinkos there in the first place! James,
correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I sign something that said if I was
a member of the press I had to inform you before you started the class?
No offense to Rod whatsoever, I respect the man, although second hand as
I've never met him personally. My problem is I WANT to meet him, at his
Jambouree and the pre-class, and I DON'T want it shut down by the ED ED
ED safety SS that would shut it down for the same reason they take wooden
drill rifles from JROTC kids!
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Screw those revolutionaries, this is the, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000
at 03:38:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.198)
Kush, are you talking about the cheek pieces that slide over both
sides of the stock on an M16/AR15? There is a new design out there that
clips on from the bolt release side of the weapon and can be popped on
and off in seconds they claim, it also has a little water tight compartment
in the area of the cheekpiece.
Cowpie, Ca, Been shoppin around for a 300WinnyMag, USA - Friday, July
14, 2000 at 04:08:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.32)
Reloaders,
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 04:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.170.184.161)
Okay I'm pissed...
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 05:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.145)
B. Douglas,
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 05:18:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.70)
Damned if I can remember the name of the company.
http://www.bushmaster.com/products/buttstocks/6600.htm
B. Douglas
<uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, I got a laugh out of the link guys. Have a media player
for a quick song?, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 06:30:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.1.32)
The link I made mention of is the one my name will jump you to.
Shouldn't take too long to download if you are interested. Ties in with
the cartoon character comment I made above.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 07:15:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.165.1.32)
Bravo is an alright guy, he might get a little excited like the
rest of us, but his heart is in the right spot. I am certain that he meant
well and didn't mean to slight an upstanding person.
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 07:29:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
Guys, a buddy of mine showed this to me, I got a bit of a kick out
of it. Truely a custom 50cal. Barrett.
B. Douglas
<uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 08:39:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.32)
Bad Karma and Linotype:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 10:36:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Bad Karma,
And Be sure to flux the hell out of it. I used to do a primary melt,
flux and mix alloys then ingot the stuff.
The show turned out to have a pro police siding, and they even mentioned
the worldwide footage being burned into peoples minds was EDITED! FUNNY
THING HUH?
I get the idea the Lefties [Thin-chested, fruit-juice drinking,
salad-eating, sandal-wearing offspring eg yuppies(THANKS TERRY W.!)] are
trying to start more of the 1968 style rioting before the elections.
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 11:43:59 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.34)
Gooch...
In the vocabulary department, this wasn't one of your better days...
I've seen you express yourself betterer!
How to put a bullet in a man's brain at a mile?... well maybe, cuz
you sure didn't teach that when I was there.
--------------
"In an attempt to get FBI agents to question such dubious operations
as Ruby Ridge and Waco, new recruits are being taught about the
conduct of police in Nazi Germany at the Holocaust Museum in
D.C. "We do this ... to remind them of the horror and evil which
can result from ... law enforcement abandoning its mission to
protect people and becoming the engine of oppression," said FBI
director Louis Freeh."
-------------
"Much of the Holocaust was perpetrated or supported by trained professionals
who were 'doing their job,'"
-------------
"Jeffrey Higginbotham, FBI assistant director for training, said
trainees taking the segment are exposed to two types of police officers
in Nazi Germany; those who followed the dictates of the state and were,
at least initially, rewarded and those who followed the dictates of conscience
and were often dismissed and ostracized.
-------------
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 11:50:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
On the Press:
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 11:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
Gentlemen; IN A PERFECT WORLD THERE WOULD BE NO COPS OR SNIPERS
EITHER FOR THAT MATTER NO SOLDIERS. Beliefs and opinions are everyones
to have and thanks to the document they are everyones to export via Washington
Post of SC forum for the moment at least. Frankly the opinions I do seek
to suppress are those that think my "rights" don't exist. I have a rifle
for that purpose if it comes to that. While many folks in this country
are only concerned with the constitution as to how it protects their personal
agenda it still exists (only briefly now) for us all. I too, am troubled
with the remarks the man made as they applied to ME. The real troubling
thing here is that a man who obviously cared for others and assisted them
in their need to succeed and recognized the need for a "sure shot" in Mississippi
LE thinks a "Militia man" such as my self (and all of you by the way) should
not be allowed to train with what he APPARENTLY sees as (here's that word
again) "ELITE" professionals.
Something happens to a man when he gets a badge or uniform.
(THAT LAST LINE WILL TROUBLE THE ELITE)
James, (his entire career face the same physical threat to his safety
as an oil rig worker experiences in one day). RIGHT SQUARE CENTER BULL!
The policeman has more threat from his automobile or someone elses (about
the same as a taxi driver) or the court he has to report his perps too,
than from armed perps on a day to day basis. He must deal with it all however
and it's a shitty job to say the least.
But I do notice that there are lots of applicants WANTING TO BECOME
...... you guessed it.....ELITE. i'VE met some Elite policemen but
it had nothing to do with their shooting or body armour, black uniforms
or shiny boots and leather. It had to do with their hearts.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 12:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Mister Gooch: it’s with a more than a modicum of incredulity that
I write this. No, I don’t know vice, and I don’t care to. He might be a
wonderful guy, but we wouldn’t see eye to eye philosophically. As for his
opinion, he is ENTIRELY entitled, and I would defend his right to express
it, as yours. My statement of compulsory retraction was aimed at the communist
that wrote the propaganda article, not vice. This isn’t about opinions;
it’s about freedom. And yes, I yell “The Constitution!” a lot, but it seems
that we (the folks that do because we’ve actually STUDIED it) are in a
true minority. What this IS about is the Constitution!
Since I know you’ve read well into the document and supporting documents
that you swore an oath to protect, you’ll recall what the founding fathers
wrote in there about elitism and elitist attitudes. Or maybe a re-read
of the first two Articles is in order. Let’s not forget that “cop” stands
for “citizen on patrol”. Or the concise words of Patrick Henry “Anyone
who would give up a small amount of freedom for a small amount of security
deserves neither”, thus doing away with the “only cops need this training”
mentality and elitist attitudes!
In my younger days I had a ex-Airforce mechanic tell me that he
thought civilians should not be allowed to keep weapons due to their lack
of appropriate training, as they posed a danger to themselves and the community.
My response was that as a former member of the Corps (no such thing as
ex-Corps) and since I shot regularly and could outshoot him ANY day with
pistol or rifle, HE should not be allowed to own a weapon, as I thought
HE was not properly trained.
See the logic?
If we start saying “only law enforcement need this instruction”,
then we’re committing two sins. First off, liberty has NOTHING to do with
need. We don’t NEED a swimming pool. Want to ban them except for military
and law enforcement? And prohibition of instruction, well, is reminiscent
of book burnings by certain groups.
As for my vocabulary, in my somewhat formative youth I looked to
a great shooter as a mentor and friend (still do) who told me that a profane
mouth was an indication of an inadequate vocabulary. I’m still learning
and trying, although my first reflex is usually “screw that”.
Seems I recall something about “hanging together or surely hanging
separately”. Think those words still apply? Divisive politics is what the
communists use. You don’t need THAT gun, or THAT ammo. Or in this case,
THAT training. The political machine has got to vice, and if he were as
interested in protecting MY freedom under the Constitution as he was about
passing Rod’s class, he would be singing a significantly different, non-elitist
song.
Sorry for the rant guys, and Mister Gooch, regardless of our disagreements,
I still look forward to sharing some of my Guinness brew with you when
I do meet you at Storm.
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000
at 13:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Pete:
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 14:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.66.20.32)
IMPORTANT NOTE
1. Possession of an unregisterd firearm bearing no serial number
2. Interstate transport of an illegal firearm.
3. Illegal manufacture of firearms
4. Failure to pay firearms tax
5. Conspiracy to evade tax and firearms regulations
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:14:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
B. Douglas:
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:20:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
I don't want to get into any arguments over something I didn't read
but I have to agree with 'lito about one of his points. It has always pissed
me off when I go to matches and civilians are excluded because they shouldn't
see or be doing this type of shooting. I went to a match in Nebraska last
year put on by Hornady that was restricted to military or LE. Civilians
were not allowed to shoot in it. I had to tell my regular shooting partner
he couldn't shoot in it with me and for the life of me I don't know why!!
It was a great match and a lot of fun but there was no reason civilians
couldn't have shot in it. I then had to marvel at the promoter when they
we up set because more teams didn't show up and when I suggested to them
they should open it to civilian shooters I was told it was not approiate
for civilians to be shooting in those types of matches.
I shot in combat pistol matches for years and the top shooters were
always civilian shooters and would wax our butts on a regular basis and
because of it a lot of the LE shooters quit shooting in the matches, only
a few of us die hards stayed around to learn from the "Experts", who were
civilians, and you know not a one of them told me they couldn't show me
their technique or method because I may use it against them. Out in Wyoming
at the D&L shoot there is a mixture of civilians, military and LE and
you know it all works out great and you meet some really great shooters
both military and "Civilian". A lot of Civilians after all are ex military
and ex LE with the same interests.
I have seen the attitudes your talking about and it gives us all
a black eye but don't judge all by a few. Thank God there are still some
good guys out there in blue but as someone said there getting fewer and
fewer because they keep dropping the standards all the time. If it upsets
you think what it does for the people who have to depend on them for back
up. Sorry this is so long its just a sore spot with me because one of these
days I'll be a civilian but a damn proud one!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:25:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Comprehension again. I didn't say I agreed 100% with the comments
that Brian was reported to have made, but I do understand his concern.
What I did say was that to label him a Nazi etc was bullshit and I stick
to that. He has a right to his opinion (if he did infact say this stuff
as reported in the article) whether it be right or wrong in your eyes.
What if I was to take comments like those made about Brian and announce
that those that made them are "ultra right wing, para-military whacko's!"
Not true is it?
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:26:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.162)
James,
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:34:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.24)
About Mr. Vice:
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
Gooch... I won't respont to most of your last, cuz you seem to have
changed the the discussion... except that I have been on both sides of
the street, and I prefer the one I'm on now... but I'll ask you two things...
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 16:08:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Hank,
I think they were supposed to issue you a home labotomy kit upon
discharge. :)
How sad is it that the use of the Constitution gets one labeled
as an extremist? What I think may be even worse is that I understand why
they do label people as such. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence
are symbols of freedom. People are losing sight of the foundations of this
country and soon no foundation will be left.
Keep training those civilians. The one you train are the last defense
to all of our freedom.
Does anyone have experience with the 338 Lapua? My new Sako should
be here next week and I need reloading tips and any other information on
the cartridge.
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 16:25:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.21.196.108)
Kent: I understand his concern too. Nobody wants to be shot at,
much less hit. I for one however would not value some perceived infintessimal
increase in my personal safety (banning this kind of training to proven
honest, law abiding citizens) over the God given rights of the entire nation.
And you are quite right, maybe calling him a Nazi was a bit over the top.
I’ll leave it as “supporter of at least one column of the communist manifesto”.
I tend to believe direct quotes more than the non-direct stuff, like how
they twisted Rods’ words. To quote someone incorrectly is to either print
a retraction (commonly done) or to be sued for libel / slander (also commonly
done). If he was misquoted, and I find out how to contact him, I’ll personally
render copious apologies. Actually, in either case I would care to find
out how to contact him, e-mail is fine, to find out more first hand.
then more should be done. Not until!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
this done YET??, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 17:00:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.9.223.170)
OK, I just got stuffed into the platoon Sgt billet and I have a
couple of questions that I hope those of you with past experience have
answers to. I'd rather see if anyone's fought this fight before. The question
regards the use of M852 that I can get from the CMP. Is there any USMC
reg that says that ammo must come from the S4 supply chain? They have some
fairly good deals, and the money is not the problem I just want to know
what rules I'm breaking here. Ammo is one of the key problems that I get
to deal with here. Lack there of. Also a more technical question, is there
any advantage to using AP to shoot through glass and perhaps also car/window
frames vs using 173gn FMJ-BT or 175 Sierras. I was concerned with angles
of impact also on car windows and the potential for skipping/ricochet at
extreme frontal or compound angles. Yes, I have told everyone that you
want to square up as much as possible but IRL that's not always possible.
Some of these cars today have really extreme windshield angles(Firebird
and Camaro come to mind) and this might be a concern. I have a good bunch
of Marines here and they deserve not to have me F**k this up. Semper Fi...Ken
M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 17:07:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.207.182)
For you aliens out there on the mother ship. This is a common discussion
(of the 4th kind) by earthlings. You see we here, in the funny shaped continent,
have a consititutional (scratches on rocks) agreement to protect those
zealous and misinformed humanoids who would have armies of their mercenaries
sieze our weapons and enslave us. The law is neccessary since we free citizens
have the guns, and thus we need a law that says it's ok to have them ....to
protect them from us so to speak (converse). Otherwise there would be much
trouble for the tyrants and their agents on the third rock from the sun!
It is common practice on this planet to use air vibrations and scratches
on paper to communicate, often people of like mind and purpose become temporarily
confused about what they believe but it only lasts a few lines (scratches).
IT is known as "shuckin the jive! in some circles. Possibly it is known
as "correcting the orbit",or "Adjusting attitude and pitch" in yours. You
can beam me up now!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 17:07:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Whatever happened to "An armed society is a polite society." I believe
I can assume the society on this board is (heavily) armed (If you don't
have any firearms, go and get some (if you meet all of the legal criteria)),
yet in the past 24 hours it doesn't seem to be very polite.
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 17:47:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
Ken M:
Hank <ninesoft@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 18:05:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
The Shooter:
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 18:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
How is it that whenever something really emotional gets discussed,
everyone has to make their point in the most long winded way possible?
NJ, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 18:45:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
To CDC Re: "how to drive a bullet through a brain sized target a
full mile away.Hell, I'll bite: HOW? "
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
All it would take is a boatload of shooters.
Although the distance was much shorter, and the cops were using
their feet instead of a rifles, the principle is the same. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:39:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.145.188)
Pablito, Who shouldn't own firearms? You got the list pretty much
as is. I knew that would get a rise out of you.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.178)
Steve (Nato) once again brings humor back into the fray. Thanks
dude.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.178)
Kent: as said before, I look forward to an HONEST opinion on my
Guiness by a true connoisseur. Next year at Storm unless something BIG
goes awry. I’ve got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that we’ve been
working at the same problem, just at different angles. Please don’t take
anything wrong, you’ve got my respect, as does Rod. Letting that “reporter”
in though….. no, I won’t think above my pay grade ;-)
gonna take life easy for a day or two, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000
at 20:53:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Steve/Nato,
Question: How do you hit a head-sized target at a mile using multiple
riflemen?
Answer: Use your approach with Bayes' formula. Or go have a beer
instead.
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 22:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.11)
I just wanna know one thing. Can you guys really do a brain shot
at a mile with a .308? And they call me "Wild Bill".
Don't jump on me... hell I read it in a Washington news paper.
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 22:34:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Hey Bravo, CDC and all,
Taking it easy and your favorite brewski sounds great. I may post
later tho, have some questions about "crimps" to all out there.
Very (or is that veli?) interesting here the last day or so.
A 53 gun broadside salvo? Don't rock the boat.
Take care.
WI, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 22:41:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.100.170.165)
Bill(WILD BILL) Rogers,
And maybe take out the trash................
His son stumbles by filled to the gill's, making an arse of himself
in front of customers,Dad, really embarrassed says " There goes a prime
example of why some animals eat their young.)( why couldn't we be so lucky
w/ the Liberals??)........fwiworth....tshoes
Terry (TSHOES) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 01:15:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.26)
I need help picking out a scope for a flattop M4.
Asheville, NC, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 01:33:38 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.4.252.230)
Bill R (you ol' yote bate)
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 01:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Goochster...
Way cool guy... Owns a M40-A3 tank, and collects machine guns...
and is as rabid about the 2nd amendment (and all the other "little" ones)
as Me and Bravo... he's a real stand up guy.
(Rod, DUDE... The Washington Times, OK... but the friggin' POST????)
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 03:21:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Just got on here and everything is gone so I dont know what I missed.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 04:11:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.71.17.174)
Webmaster, what is up???????????
Terry(tshoes) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 04:27:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.53)
Ahhh yes. Another long winded, emotionaly charge thread winds down
on sniper country. It was a good thread, and I'll remember it well. Remember
when it was first born? Just a little post from a Canuck got it all started.
It was so sweet then.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 05:16:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.141)
Kent: your thread isn't dead QUITE yet, I've gotta do the right
thing. You were 100% right about Vice, and I was 100% wrong. I want to
say this publicly to you before I try to do the same for Vice, and please
DO rest assured that it will be a cold day before I question you off the
bat ever again. Forget the first round or two, I've made an ass of myself,
and you can have your "fall down weight" on me. No Louisville Slugger required.
I'm not gonna whine or throw blame on anyone, but you can also rest
assured that I'm hereby a complete non-beleiver in ANYTHING I read in the
papers, and for that matter, the internet.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
where we SIP, not gulp, our beer, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at
06:02:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.136)
Well try it again Terry; maybe it will make it this time. Well I
kinda wondered about a guy who said Rod was teaching 1 mile brain shots
in the first place. We are so under attack here all time it's no wonder
we have a little friction. Yes, reporter real dumb SOB to misquote SNIPERS.
Maybe taxi drivers or even drug suspects but... never mind. I'm always
amazed when I get quoted in any kind of rag... my first thought is,
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 10:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
first thought is..."who in the hell are they quoting".
Reporters lie like dogs, of course we all know that. Rod did about
all he could under the circumstances. The only thing sneakier than a SNIPER
is a damn reporter looking for something to lie about to prove his agenda.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 10:44:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Bravo, read over a post of yours about Police having more authority
than citizens. When the laws of arrest are studied you will see you have
the same power to arrest as I do. The difference comes in the the amount
of protection provided you if you screw up. The law understands that I
make a great deal more arrests than you, so if I am acting in good faith
and make a arrest that turns out to be wrong I have protection from civil
suit. If you make an arrest and make a mistake, well you are screwed in
a civil court. Now of course if I make an arrest that I know is not right
or should have known is not right, well I am screwed also. Of course, if
Janet Reno, decides it will give the Clinton Regime votes, I can be tried
for anything. Hell I can be tried twice if they fail the first time. None
of these rules appear to apply to Reno's Rangers. Damm Phili' Cops doing
something so close to an ellection. No one will hear about what the bad
guy did, they will just go after the cops. Now all you guys judging them,
remember what you did the last time you caught someone that shot a friend,
stole your car and shot at you.
Undude/Mike
MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 11:41:32 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.21.139.248)
Just reading over the posts for the last few days.
MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 12:34:26 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.211)
OK, now that we've figured out that the guys who write for the Washington
Post are often lying pieces of shit when it comes to guns, can we all make
nice and shoot long range again? I subscribe Sundays Only so that I can
"Know your enemy" -- if you're gonna vote agin' 'em, you gotta know how
they think.
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 12:34:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Mistah Gooch and where we draw the line:
In other words, the battery of the modern disorganized militiaman
should closely resemble the array of arms that is legaly avaialble to most
of us right now. Generaly no more but certainly no less.
Colatown , SC, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 12:47:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Mr."WILD BILL " Rogers, kinda sounds cool........
Oh, well...back to the subject from 14/7/00.
All you have to do is get your sooper dooper snapper scope, w/1/4"
cliks (of course), dial in your elevation, which will have to be enough
to allow for 171.375' of drop, and if you allow for a 10 mph 3-9 wind,all
you need to dial in 28.714' of R/L windage...........A snap!
Terry(tshoes) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 15:02:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.58)
"You are a Marine and are worried about shooting through American
made car windshields? How many countries that Marines may be stationed
have Amercian firebirds? Where in America should a Marine be concerned
about operations?"
Machiavelli
IL, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 15:48:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.206.177)
Well, COPS make a lot of honest mistakes.. like that perp in Philly.
About the second shot he threw at me; his sweet whinin momma would have
been paying the undertaker and it would have been just another dead car
jacker. Why they didn't waste him shows their restraint/poor shooting ,
clear and plain to me. The mistake comes in when they beat him after the
capture. That isn't allowed but you can take out a guy that shoots at you
if you can hit anything. Sorry, I wan't there so I shouldn't judge, but
I do know they're in a heap of ShiX!
Had I been there and shot him I too would be in heap of it.
Probably wouldn't do for me to be in your profession Mike. I wouldn't/couldn't
beat anybody that was restrained but there'd be too many bodies lying around
with guns in their hands. You see I got no patience with people that try
to kill me.
The Constitution is not all that clear but my own interpretation
of "arms" to bear to the individual goes toward.... I assume the arms may
be purely defensive but since defensive arms are also offensive arms in
many cases it's not excluding offensive arms. Since the purpose is defined
as... in order to assure a well "regulated" militia. It would mean to me
that they be both effective and state of the art. Question ;does the constitution
draw the line. I've heard it said that the Forefathers could not have envisioned
the weapons of today but certainly they envisioned Cannons,grenades and
Ships.
I hear the terms lawful arms, and what arms would that be? What
arms are excluded by the consitution? In the 1776 context is is said by
those who study the time period.. that regulated meant (under common usage
of the times) "well trained" or "skilled". Certainly there have been attempts
lately to "regulate the Militia". Under the modern usage of the word regulate.
One thing that is clear is that the "Fathers" intended the militia to be
a powerful force for freedom to retain what they had just fought for. They
knew where they had come from and what they did. It should be apparent
to all what they meant."What ever it takes!"
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 17:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
TOM.... They will be coming after our "Sniper Rifles" next!
Just read the regulations put into place with the
"Assault Weapon" bans of recent years, and then apply
them to Tactical Rifles. They may leave us some old
single-shot .22's and shotguns for a while, but not
for long if they get what they want.
first step. This pussbucket from the Washington Post
and the article that they printed seems like a giant-
step toward realization of the beginning of their goals.
in order to survive, but please don't confuse the short
term victory of selling more courses with the tremendous
setback that negative publicity has attached to it.
I wish you and SMTC only sucess.
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 17:11:56 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.74.10)
Wasn't me, I swear!!! I just spent some time rebuilding the normal
Roster back from the Reverse one, post for post. Why the heck it disappeared
in the first place I do not have the faintest idea. I didn't fiddle with
the Roster, or the script. I plead total and utter ignorance on this.
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, RSA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 19:33:46 (ZULU) (your host
address: 196.15.184.28)
What ever happened to Al O....?
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 19:47:42
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.121)
CONTEXT!!!!! Have you ever been asked a question in relation to
a particular matter, then have the answer published as your sole opinion?
I have. I wont get into the specifics of the matter, but I assure you,
I DONT believe in special gun rights for LE...
I dont claim to be some guru of the police sniper world, I am a
person who loves guns, and loves to shoot them. I would do this as a civilian,
just as I have done as a cop. If any of you have questions in relation
to "the post", feel free to ask. I am NOT the pro-Clinton, Democrat, gun
grabber that the article made me out to be.
Brian T. Vice
Brian Vice <bvice@mindspring.com>
Moss Point, Mississippi, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 19:58:38
(ZULU) (your host address: 4.4.69.64)
Mr Vice:
Hank
Denver, CO
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 20:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.211.242.226)
Success or not, I will not stop teaching law abiding US citizens
the skills associated with Sniping. It is our right to do what ever we
wish as long as it is not in violation of current law.
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 21:43:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.71.17.139)
Reference the Washinton Puke article...Guys, as a Chief/Supervisor
for a major fire organization here in Florida I deal with the media several
times a week, more during wildfire season. I know most of the TV and Paper
tigers that come to my fire scenes and they act as if they are my friends.
I treat them with respect in return, but they WILL quote me out of context
and they are ALWAYS looking for the controversial stories. They always
want to know if something our agency did caused the wildfire. Did we allow
someone to do something that caused all of this destruction? In other words
bad news sells better than good. And getting the really great story helps
them keep the job. They even ask my Rangers if they are happy with the
pay/treatment/working conditions, do we blow warm fuzzy air up their collective
butts everyday. And if one of the boys or girls whines alittle I get to
see "Disgruntled State Employee Says..." As I said, They are ALWAYS looking
to find some crap to make the story controversial. Why would a reporter
from the Post be different from a paper tiger here in backwater Panama
City Florida? If it says reporter on the job description, I assume they
are lying to me and looking for dirt. You should too. Always.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 22:36:58 (ZULU)
(your host address: 158.252.73.114)
Mike,
It is unfortunate that you took my opinion, which was based on STRONG
evidence so personal. I did not think I did anything wrong back then. After
all, look at the conclusions you were able to reach, just by the way a
guy spelled "SEARGENT". Also, the way you jumped to conclusions and attacked
my character, by saying I was going off of second hand information when
I mentioned the NG at the stalking event at Storm Mountain.
It is possible that I jumped to a hasty conclusion when I said that
I thought that you might be a cop with a ELITIST ATTITUDE.
Prophet- a teacher, preacher, or poet. One who fortells events.
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 23:51:59 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.61.68)
Mike, right on target as always. I was trying to illustrate that
citizens have every right that the police do. Not that I'm telling people
to be DIY cops, you guys can HAVE it! My only purpose for putting that
out there was to convey the idea that we're all EQUAL, and as such, should
have the same attitudes and "professional courtesies". As for me, I'm GLAD
it's you guys doing drug busts, not me. My only caveat is that I personally
WILL NOT call the police for anything that I would not go and make a citizens
arrest for personally. Ever get tired of folks calling the cops for loud
music, dogs barking, garbage in the neighbors yard, etc?
Bravo762 <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
mistrusting more than just the government in the, USA - Sunday, July
16, 2000 at 01:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.166)
Bravo 762:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 01:26:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Men;soldiers, countryment.....
I just realized that I must come across some times as someone who
discourages a tactically trained policeman to feel elite. I must clarify
that it is only when it causes him harm and overconfidence that gets him
killed that my contempt of "elite" comes in focus. Nothing wrong with being
"elite" as long as you don't think you're "bullet proof" or can't make
a mistake. It happens.
Larry' I think it was a birth defect. Probably known somewhere as
shepard syndrom!
Mr. Vice; hey ,,,if they can read the 2nd and think it applies only
to LE and Military, I don't find it hard to believe they would misquote
you! I think we all understand your predicament.
The trouble with this country is the Zealots who want to prevent
someone from acting against the law by restraining them in some broad collective
measure like banning guns altogether. What if we banned drugs altogether.
No MORE drugs in this country! Lets just cut em up and burn em. But what
if we get sick? There is a law against misuse of firearms and drugs. We
should concentrate on punishment for those who misuse them not for those
who obtain them.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 02:05:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Steve, give it a rest. You have used the Elitist line on me too
often. Still ticked because of the put up or shut up thing? You still not
going to put up?
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 03:46:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.22)
Great post Bravo!
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Hose, CA, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 05:06:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
ROD RYAN, I for one appreciate your attitude towards training CIVI's.
As I fall into that caregory, I also have raised a family, two children,
both college grads.
GOD forbid if the time ever comes that we should have to take up
arms,I daresay, you'll be damn glad you did.
TERRY(TSHOES) <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 05:54:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.199.191)
Jumping to conclusions again, eh Mike.
I am not questioning your shooting skill, or your job performance.
Only your logic on this one issue.
What makes you think I have not put in my trigger time?
Spending 20 years in the butts at Camp Perry gives me a slight advantage
over some. I have shot right next to the S.S. I have listened to guys that
talk about shooting and then shoot a clean 200 offhand. When Mr. Clean
talks I listen. I have accomplished every single thing that I set out to
do as far as rifle shooting is concerned, It took most of my life to do
it. And I am older than you. I don't feel the need to prove anything else
to anyone, Especially you. I have never claimed to be any kind of sniper.
I am just a long range target shooter, and a history buff.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 06:12:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.43)
Chilli or however you care to pronounce it...Take some of Bravo's
beer and some deer, elk, caribou, or even cow and brown it in a cast iron
skillet with your choice of spices n stuff. Add meat to stock pot along
with your flame on peppers and other assorted vegies/fillings as you choose.
Get it all simmering, and let it cook down for several hours. Make sure
he seat is comfy amd you have enough Charmin, then enjoy with more Bravo
brew or the comercial equivalent.
a) drawing fire from LEO who may think that you are another bad
guy.
b) drawing fire from the backup that will arive at some point during
the event.
c) aviod some of the "lawyer fest" that would likely be instigated
by the bad guy(s) or next of kin after these types of incidents.
south west, PA, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 07:08:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 151.201.122.87)
I use an AR at work and am considering mounting some sort of non-powered
optic (specifically a reflex or an aimpoint). The only thing I've used
so far are accessories I think are a must have - Giles sling, Surefire
light (I work nights), and a spare mag attached somewhere on the gun. I
spoke to Scott P. about the subject and he seems favor the aimpoint mounted
to the rail. I'd appreciate any input from those who've used either enough
to form an opinion.
Morgan Guthner <mg6680@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 11:51:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.10.133.28)
Mike and Steve,
I'm sure they are rubbing thier hands together with glee when they
see us fighting amongst ourselves. Remember the song that goes "united
we stand, divided we fall", or the military tactic "divide and conqueor".
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 12:36:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.41.36.78)
James Jarrett...
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 12:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Good Morning All,
You are indeed welcome here.
Too long and you get the sewer pipe effect, been covered in Hot
Tips I think.
The only time they are of practical value is load development, where
long strings may be fired, and the barrel warms up to the point heat mirage
interferes with sight pix.
I think its in your best interests if you leave Mike Miller alone
on this page.
Alas, sometimes its all we can do :-(
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 12:49:57 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.179)
Lito-
Aren't you stretching it to call Massad Ayoob "noted LE..etc..."
I personally like that he appears to research his stuff to no end
but his background has more holes than a target backing! At least the target
backing owned by the "brain shot at a mile" shooter.....
MicTac <Mictac@AOl.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.66.150.212)
Man, oh man. "Can't we all just get along?"
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 14:01:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Mictac...
That's good enough for me.
As to your first question... I doubt it ;)
... very light and thin... do they have it in a multi-colored pattern?
I tried to find them on the web, but neither company has a web site.
What a tribute to those that gave so much...
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 15:08:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Re: Mr Ayoob. He appears to have stretched the limits of his expertise
in the July issue of GunWorld. Not only is he a pistol guru it appears
that he knows more about rifle shooting than the combined gray matter of
the USMC and the USA. I've got a flaming letter in the works for the editors.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 15:44:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.180)
All: The Major is in Okinawa now. Waiting for her to get email,
etc turned up over there. No time for sheepies here... have too much around
the farm to take care of (no sheep on the farm either).
tactical-announce@aspiringtech.net - There are over 100 tactical
shooters subscribed to my list. You have to be a member to post to that
list. It's okay to advertise, post events, do market surveys, etc.
If any of youn'z want to subscribe - just send me an email and tell
me to add you to that list.
Ken Hunter <Ken@Hunters.or>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:05:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.13)
Botched my email address in the previous post. It is: Ken@Hunters.org
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:06:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.13)
Yes, Mr. Vice, welcome aboard. Hopefully you'll stay a while! We
need more cool guys.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
we're racing for pinkslips, so I'm gonna tune 'er up!, USA - Sunday,
July 16, 2000 at 16:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.254)
Pablito, I agree on the date cter es, probably going to be July
2000 for our next string of classes. I am to teach six sniper and an equal
number of CQB classes to local PD's before I can travel again. On the teaching
civilians. I am all for it. My butt has been pulled out of the fire more
than once by a civilian or two, heck I even had an opportunity to help
a CHP who was getting beaten to death, before I was a cop. I have even
had ex-cons stand by me (you know you are in the right when that happens)
Every man/woman in this country has the right to defend him/herself. If
they are stand up folks I will teach them. As long as it does not violate
any laws. When I quit being a cop I am going to teach full time. By the
way, I have been messing with the BDC wheels for my MK4 M3, did you know
that the 30-06 BDC wheel works very well for the 175's at 2700 fps, under
SAC's. I get 2700 fps out of 175's with the Rice built rifles and KxP bbls.
That is what Blackhills and Federal clock at. I only get the advertised
2600 fps out of standard PSS's. This is kinda like the stuff you were talking
about with the Varix 3 M3 a while back. Oh darn we cant go down that road.
Last time you got attacked by someone. What can we talk about?
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:44:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.196.24)
On flame wars: Most of us (myself included) would be much happier
if there was a fifteen minute delay on the [SEND] and the [**Submit** Your
Comments!] buttons. In the last month alone I've gotten in five absolutelyhosteless fights over complete nonsense.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:45:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.95)
Haven't been posting much here lately but have been reading alot.
BOLT, out!
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 17:11:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.59.230)
Mike, you're absolutely right. I slapped the 30-06 dial on my M3,
and all of a sudden, things were WAY better. Mine clocks 2700 (and extremely
little change, 8 standard deviation) with the 175's, and, unlike at the
class, there were NO deviations to 400, and that's all I've played with
enough to say before I sent the stock back. I did make good hits at 500
and 600 with it on there, but I'm not convinced of the settings (when I
line the "1" up on the mark, the 5 and 6 don't line up perfectly, and of
course make little bobbles) but 'Lito and I've gone over that. When the
stock gets back, I'm gonna go from 400 to 1000 to see what's what! Worse
case, I start backing in the micrometer on the powder measure until I get
solid hits.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000
at 17:17:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.254)
As advertised; Mini 14 test in the real world. Conditions 800 yards
of sagebrush very little or no wind. (rare here). Target 18"X20" cardboard
box covered with white paper 3" red requre in center.
Ammo 55 grain SX Hornady. Shooting off Jeep CJ with sandbags myself
standing on ground leaning on the hood. Using kentucky elevation.
Rifle Mini 14 7"twist ranch rifle stainless out of the box with
Aimpoint 1" tube mounted with ruger rings. Firing 3 shots at each range.
100 yards 2.5" group 2 in red.
200 yards 4" group 1 in red.
300 yards 4" group 1 in red.
400 yards 8" group 0 in red.
500 yards 6" group 2 in red.
all 12 in 10" slightly left with most shots.
AT this point I decide to go to 800 and see what it looks like.
I do have a range card with me for this load. I see that I must
hold 27' high. It's 100 degrees in the sage brush. IT looks hopeless I
can barely be sure where the target is with no magnification. I decide
to shoot out the window with no bags,, what the heck?
1st shot appears 10' off high.
2nd shot appears low by 50 yards or so.
3rd shot I don't see. I pick up the target. No new holes are seen.
I am heading for town. When I measure the groups I find the 3rd
shot
of the 800 yard series. in the lower right hand corner of the target
15" from the red center.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 17:32:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
M3 LR w/ 175 MKs and the .30-06 dial:
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 18:09:33 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
I am looking for any sugestions and prices of scopes. I am looking
for a reasonable priced scope.I am looking for a tactial scope with 1/4
moa target style windage and elevation. I would like a variable 3-9-40
minimum with a mildot reticle. I want a side parallax adjustment or a side
zoom.please e mail me at mercenary848@aol.com or zerocool8489@aol.com.
If you have links to purchase these scopes please send.
Jeremy
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 18:12:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.198.184)
Tom: my results from talking with Sierra and Leupold: the 175 at
2550 fps should track the 168 dial within 2" to 600 yards. I asked the
question because I figured that I would get LESS velocity from the 175's
than I did the 168's. Not so! The 175's have less bearing surface (via
Sierra), and I get about 30 fps more with the 175, using 0.5 grains less
powder. When I get the bugs worked out 100%, I'll let you know.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
working dies and reloading tools over, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000
at 19:14:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.209)
Gents,
I would like to weigh in on the training of civilians issue.I am
a 10 year veteran with the largest police department in my state and in
my opinion this is a non issue.Jeff Cooper once defined the essence of
marksmanship as self control and noted that a lack thereof was the main
character trait of the criminal personality.In my time on the street I
have observed the same thing.Hollywood likes to portray the criminal as
a suave,daring mastermind,armed with the latest hot lick and trained down
to his toenails...it just ain't so.Crooks are losers.The criminal personality
is lazy,selfish,and pathologically unable to foresee the consequences of
his actions.The only planning that goes into 99% of all crimes is how to
spend the loot!
So,what's my point? Just this:The type of person who would lay out
1500.00 to 2000.00 dollars for training-any type of training- just isn't
a "danger" in my book,and for L.E. to classify them as such misses the
point and alienates honest citizens...of which we've already got plenty.
sincerely,
Hugh Butler
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 19:21:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.205.14)
UnDude...
And so the '06 cam tracks the LR load just fine as it has pretty
much the same velocity out of a bolt gun of reasonalbe barrel length.
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 20:15:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Guys,
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 20:37:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.46)
Lito-
Ayoob-he's over 100 miles away-MUST BE AN EXPERT WITNESS
Heck-I've heard him say that drivel myself. Anyone can call himself
a expert as long as the attorney does so first in court. There is no "certified
court expert" listing anywhere. Heck some of the experts I have dealt with
in court have sheepdipped degrees that are easy to expose. Money hungry
lying scum....and thats just the lawyers.If a lawyer is willing to pay
you to talk-you are his witness. Heck, because I ahd to testify on use
of force and deadly force issues-I can call myself an expert witness. Will
I-NO- I have too much too learn and I know how easy it is to armchair quarterback
a situation to what "this is what should have happened. Plus I have integrity
(at least I think so.)
Actually-to be fair-there is a thing called court recognized expertise.
This occurs when a state (probably federal too)court system acknowledges
your background and qualifications so they do not have to be stipulated
(SP?). This I got direct from my State Atorney (who BTW never heard of
Ayoob). This doesn't mean the testimony is good though.
Like I said about Ayoob- The man talks the talk but can not walk
the walk. Period. I actually stated I like some of his points on weapon
choices and training, but he is not whom he appears to be.
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:06:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.42)
I do exclude certain lawyers from the comment above. If you read
this board you are not a typical lawyer and I do not intend any insult.
But....What is the difference between a lawyer being run over and a skunk
being run over?
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:09:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.42)
I would like to thank everyone for being open minded enough to listen
to my side of “that” issue. I would also like to add that the authors of
the most slanderous statements posted, went to the effort of e-mailing
me with regrets. Anyone can make a snap judgment, but it takes a true humanitarian
to publicly change his views. I consider everyone in the shooting community
a friend. If any of you come near South Mississippi, don’t hesitate in
contacting me.
(228) 474-3658
Moss Point, Mississippi, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:39:41 (ZULU)
(your host address: 4.4.69.26)
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:58:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.199.195)
I'm getting tired of weighing each load and considering getting
Dillon 550 to do the task instead.
Was wondering if anyone else uses a progressive reloader to load
their match ammo and what results have you seen ?
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 22:22:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.92.13.131)
Well, the Quantico Excellence-in-Competition ("Leg") match was called
for lightning and thunderstorms after 1st and 2nd relays fired through
the 300 yard rapids.
Dvae Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 23:04:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
TR and Cams:
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 00:04:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
TR: could be! But some make better reference points than others.
For instance, if I purchase a blank dial from Lupita central, and group
my points well, and then etch on there numbers, is it still just a reference
point? Yup. Just so happens that my reference points will be right on,
as long as I shoot in my own neighborhood (where I took the data). All
bets are off for different elevations, etc, but I should have "tactical
accuracy". That's what I'm after with this M3. FAST and easy. Now, if you
have a "spec" for bullets (which shouldn't change) and a spec for powders
and velocity (that shouldn't change), and you outfit a dial with that data
from experimental points, is it still just a reference point? Yup, but
you get my drift. Going to this 30-06 dial, I'm RIGHT ON to 400 yards at
least, which is far better than having to mess with remembering "take offs"
past 200.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
trying to decide what to experiment with next (beer wise) in the, USA
- Monday, July 17, 2000 at 00:15:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.202)
Well, well, well.
It is nice to see there seems to be a concensus of opinion as to
the possibility of using the 3006-180-2700 dial as a substitute for the
175 grain load at the same velocity.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., walking off into the sunset in his big floppy shoes, USA
- Monday, July 17, 2000 at 00:35:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.39)
I use IMR 4895 and an electronic scale but no trickler. It takes
me about 2-3 hrs to do 100 rnds. It gets old after a while. That's why
I'm looking into a progressive solution. I could spend more time at the
range.
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 01:16:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.92.13.131)
Steve and BDC ("cam") dials:
Columbia, SC, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 01:43:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Guys: A little advice si vous plait! I've been "challenged" ;-)
to a F-class shoot, and I really wanna go. Unfortunately, I DOUBT that
my stock will be back by then. I'm thinking I'll use my old service rifle
stock (the reciever has been changed since I used that stock, the action
still fits in, although a touch loose), but it doesn't have a provision
for a bipod. Now, I'm gonna shoot it one of two ways, depending on the
rules (NRA). Either slung via Mike's cuff sling, or off a ruck via Ben.
I'm ASSUMING that it's 20 rounds slowfire prone at 600. Right? Any suggestions?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Southern Utah, where the wind is bad, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at
01:48:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.212)
Stevie...
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 04:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Don't mean this for those that already know but a little tip on
those cams for some who don't yet and are reading the cam exchange. Shoot
the gun at the longest distance and set the cam for that distance. Check
it back down the line toward 100 meters. You may find that the error will
be reduced in some cases so that you're off only at close ranges where
it's more tolerable. I might be outdated on this and don't know if the
M-3 allows this or not. I don't have one around here right now. I'm sure
this won't work in all cases because sometimes the cam is just plain off
too much. I've seen boys zero at 100 and start up with bad results out
at 800 or so, I'm redundant but the idea is to zero the cam out there and
work back.
Just realized I had my head where the sun don't shine on using the
55 gr SX's with that 1 in 7 twist. It's a wonder they worked at all. MY
other Ranch Rifle would jerk the jackets off as well as my Colt 1 in 7's.
Sometimes fools get by. I just wasn't thinking. But the test wasn't so
bad anyway so I'll leave it at that. I usually shoot V-max's in that rifle
but forgot and left them at the house so I used what I had.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 04:12:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Guys, all this talk about cams has me kinda tempted to get a M3
with MilDot. Love those clear optics but don't necessarily know if I need
a variable power. Got a chance to get one of these for $680 from Georgia
Precision new in box, wondering if that is a deal that is hard to pass
up or not.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Where a person just 45minutes south of me was recently given
a 2 year sentence for sheepdippin! NO JOKE! Ca., USA - Monday, July 17,
2000 at 08:58:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.68)
Forgot to ask, is the M3 the Loophole that has the additional elevation
within the scope making long range shooting easier to accomplish without
going to a 15-20MOA base? Can't remember for the life of me which one of
the models it is.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 09:02:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.68)
Uglygun...
It DOES need tapered bases, the MK4-M3 needs flat bases.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 09:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Varmint Cong? Well, maybe just once or twice? Just to see what I
can do to them. I might touch off a couple 165grn Noslers at Coyotes too.
It's amazing what people remember if you rant about squirrels enough. Gotta
get the license plate frame made saying, "Loves of my life: Guns, Girls,
and Squirrels."
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 10:21:53 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.68)
I am trying to mount a scope with a 56mm obj. on a M70 target rifle.
The barrel has almost no taper. I can't find high enough rings to properly
elevate this scope. I have tried a Leupold LR base with the super high
rings and still need 4-5 mm. Someone told me to use a weaver base and see
through rings... This seems a little sloppy to me. Any better suggestions
would be greatly appreciated..
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 14:36:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.8.144.208)
I just wanted to say that I had the oppertunity to buy a fine rifle
in the emporium last week. The rifle was built by George Gardner at G.A
Precision, not to be confused with Georgia Precision the parts supplier.
The rifle is a Trued rem 700 mated to a .308 win barrel from Lilja. The
barrel is 24" with a heavy taper and has a badger heavy recoil lig added.
The action is Marine-tex bedded in a McMillian A4 stock with cheekpiece
and butt spacer system. George tuned the trigger, installed a SSG bolt
handle,lapped the bolt and finished the rig in matte black baked on finish.
Topped off with the Badger 20 MOA bases and rings it is ready to go. George
was honest to deal with and I could recommend him again. His work looks
top notch, and I'm sure the rifle will shoot. Thanks for a great site and
tons of info.
Larry in PA <ldup1@rcn.com>
Foggy, PA, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 14:37:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.172.10.203)
Precision/Field Sniping: Thes two are very different. For precision
and target work a BDC is never the answer. It will get you close but not
dead center. It is simply 1 and 1/2 moa adjustments versus 1/4 moa adjustments.
At a 1000 yards the difference is great. Past a 1000 yards the difference
is the difference between a hit and a miss. Most Tactical Matches are really
known and unknown bench rest matches, so the 1/4 moa adjustments are a
plus. Now for in the field, or Storm Mountain events, the MK4 M3 works
well. You just want energy on target, so if you can get a BDC that is close
to the ballistic curve of the round you shoot you can be on the paint (so
to speak) quickly and not run the risk of being a revolution off under
stress. Both scopes have their place. Keep in mind that a BDC that tracks
with a particular load will only be correct under the same set of conditions.
You can not just set the dial for the range and expect to hit if other
conditions change. I hope this explains the difference in the two systems.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. As to what has been said by others
before lets live in the here and now. No banter on this!
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 15:18:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.68)
Andrew, The Dillon 550 can make wonderful precision ammo if you
do a couple things. With bolt guns I use Redding comp dies and runout is
essentially determined by brass concentricity. The next item is to remove
the powder measure and put a Prometheus weighing system up there...you
can now load great ammo with weighed charges at light speed compared to
your present method. David Tubb of Hi-Power fame is also loading this same
way.
brand <brandx375@aol.com>
Seattle, Wa, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 16:25:31 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.194.209)
Steve
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 17:22:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Hi folks,
anybody here knows the difference between the 300 W.M. and the 300
Ultra mag. ?
The performances and the ballistic ?
Thanks.
G.I.Joe <ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 18:55:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.36.150)
I came accross this balistic calculator. Its web-based so there
is nothing to download.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 19:36:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Pablito,
Ordinarily, I would try to help you out there, but my life is not
that empty. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 21:30:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.42.171)
Stevie...
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 22:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
For the washington post article, (in a professional manner), we
should email or write and explain why we disagree with their biased portrayal
of our hobby and passion. It may go in one ear and out the other, but if
intelligent words are used, at least a message can be sent. We are few
in numbers, and rude criticism will throw logs on their fire. We are all
professionals and we take pride in our abilities and our knowledge that
we are prepared for the worst, no matter what that may be. If the worst
thing Mr. Ryan is doing is "Teaching" well then more power to them. The
kids who decided they don't need teachers are the ones that should be persecuted.
We are taking on the responsibility of the whole country. Don't ever forget
that. It is easy to see the deterioration of the world as a whole. Stand
true to your beliefs and stand up to your rights. Be smarter than those
who claim to be right. I could go on, but you all think that same way I
hope. I don't think that our small group can make much of a difference
now, but a day will come when it will
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
Boise, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 22:29:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.28.210.177)
Comedy relief: sounds like a "put up or shut up" moment. Where's
the date?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
LOADING TIME!!! in the, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 22:31:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.146)
Steve, Steve, Steve, my son, my son, why do you burden us all with
these horrible grudges born of trifles? Going over your writings I have
found errors far greater than any commited by Messrs Mike or Pablito. Do
I clutter the roster by exposing and disecting those errors in excruciating
detail? No, it would pain me to cause you such embarassment over insignificant
matters. So let's all just let the small stuff slide, and let bygones be
bygones shall we?
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 22:41:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.48)
Joe; without going into ballistics too much I would say the Ultra
is more like the Weatherby in published ballistics. The main difference
is that the Ultra does away with the belted magnum concept. Belted's are
not quite as accurate due to the way they headspace compared to the non
belted. A lot of the belted concept was a wet dream of a Fella or two one
namely Roy Weatherby who capitalized on the average hunters attention to
the riflelore of the times. He meant to make big game cartridges that would
connect at 300 yards and down with Nuclear force by setting the bullet
back from the lands and reducing pressure. There he quickly eliminated
some accuracy but his rifles did what they were advertised to do. It made
sense on paper but in the real world it made little difference. The Ultra
is a fine looking cartridge and I'd bet it works as good as it looks. Get
ready to go to barrel city pretty often though. If you fireform the cases
in your 300 win mag it will shoot with anything in the world but cases
not fire fitted will not work as well. Lemme say before I get hate mail
that I "luv" the .300 Win magnum. But like Dirty Harry said "you got to
know the limitations". Sorry Harry that's not quite what you said but it's
close enough for this work.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 22:51:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
My grandaddy used to say;"You can win a argument with enough show
of hostility and force in a very short time. But when you turn and walk
away, all you got is a guy who's behind you and still unconvinced."
B. Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 23:10:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Mr. Vice
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 00:57:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
I've got another good ole saying, "Never wrestle with a pig, you
both get dirty and the pig loves it".
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 01:40:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.141)
Holy F**K - SNIVLER COUNTRY
I dropped in on remote to see what I was missing 1000miles from
nowhere, and all I get is the Steve Mike 'Lito threesome again.
No sense me wasting my airtime on this - I'll be back next month.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 02:22:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.172.218.149)
I noticed the thread on CQB weapons. A few months ago, I read in
the Marine Corps Times that ALL MP5's would soom be replaced by M4 carbines,
actually the M4A1, I believe. I no longer have the paper. Did anyone else
read it? Can any current jarheads confirm this?
Mark <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 02:26:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.33)
All;
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 02:30:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.92.18.147)
Gooch, Kevin and all others. I am tired of the Steve thing also.
I have said all I need to Steve. I have tried several times to stop this
thing via email, but no luck. I know Pablito feels about the same as I
do. "Lets just talk shooting" I would like to concentrate on the shooting
aspects of this site. As I have said before when all you do is get attacked
you think about just staying away from here.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 03:00:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.105.184)
GI Joe,
The only drawbacks I can see are barrel life, and having to drive
back cross country to the range after each shot. :-) Those that have met
me in person know why I say that.......
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 03:14:35 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.209)
Mike,
I will accept your offer. But I think you may have confused me with
someone else. Before last month, I dont think I ever had a disagreement
with you. As I was examining the archives of Aug. last Year, I did read
a post by you where you were riled up about something. It had to do with
the "E" word but I don't think it was me that you were mad at. I could
be wrong about that. I did not read that far. I was looking for something
else. If you find the post that set you off then, and it was me, let me
know.
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 04:13:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.42.185)
Mike, Kent, Kevin and 'Lito: exceedingly well done. Can more be
done? Highly doubtful.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Wastin' away again in Margaritaville, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000
at 04:40:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)
G.I.Joe:
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 04:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.10.55)
Elite; is a word I have used, it doesn't seem to work anywhere.
The first time I heard it was applied to "Special Forces" way back somewhere
by none other than Walter Cronkite. Immediately it became a press buzz
word. It isn't supposed to be derogatory but there is a word that was much
better, it was "Distinguished" I consider most of you "Distinguished marksmen,
combat veterans, snipers, officers". Many have the medals to prove it....
I've seen "Elite" used to discribe too many things. I do believe there
are very few here who abuse the word. And I would be redundant to say it
is only when one applies it to himself and lets it affect the way he deals
with others that it becomes really harmful.
Won't go into it further but you all know what I mean. I think I've
pissed off just about everyone here with that word from time to time. Even
those who are truly "elite" seem offended by it. IT should be filed with
Ruuuu...the R word. ... and never used on SC.
ON the internet you have to be careful with the use of words. I
used to readily call myself a 'wannabee' it seemed to fit my flimsy efforts
and stumblings but when I went to the Marine Corp site that Gooch recommended
we read something on a while back I saw that "to them" a wannabee was a
person claiming to be a sniper that never was. I would consider that a
problem if a marine applied that to me in earnest because I would fear
that he subscribed to that definition. This is a wonderfull thing this
medium but it can be troublesome. I lost a very good friend and a gracious
lady over a stupid internet remark I made and it haunts me yet. We must
learn how to communicate to defeat these misunderstandings. I'm not the
chaplin here I will shut the hell up now!
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 04:59:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
First off, we are from South Africa, and it is nice to see that
there is such a great comradery between all you people out there that operate
at longer distances and we hope to take part in this as both my wife and
I are also lovers of the longer distance although not employed in the field.
Kobus & Adéle Du Toit <satg_za@yahoo.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 05:27:18
(ZULU) (your host address: 196.34.250.5)
Reloaders,
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 05:30:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.170.184.84)
Steve, done deal! I would still like to see the 03 shoot. Just not
in comp against me or anger. I love those rifles. I have a friend that
has one he found just refurbished in a bin at Traders ( a local huge dealer)
That thing shoots like a modern sniper rifle and the sites are the finest
of any standard issue rifle I have ever seen. I am always looking for a
deal on one, but they have all but dried up. The one I get to shoot will
certainly put that CAR15 of mine to shame.
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 06:12:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.21.138.63)
Sniperhide site:
Do any of youn'z have contact with Stephan De Wilde?
He owns the Sniperhide.com website. If so please have him contact
me: ken@hunters.org....the remote forward for his email that we have setup
is rejecting his mail....
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 12:25:55 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
Sorry guys...
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 13:05:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Bravo wrote "If any of you have a 'special request', let me know"....
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 13:22:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Guys, Guys,
Just catching up on the DR and I see were back at it again. Just
wanted to let you know I was the "CLOWN" or one of them who suggested using
the 30-06 cam last year I have used it ever since I got the M-3 and when
I went to the 260 I painted the top half of the dial black and scribed
in my own yardage dials for "Quick" reference and have had great luck with
it ever since. I used the 06 cam because I load the 168s to 2800 and they
track real close.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 13:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Bad Karma:
Chuck Kennedy <cwkenn@lcc.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 14:11:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.34.50.115)
Jim: While I’d love to get out there next month (already had the
vacation time scheduled), the basement flood has taken my cash. Now I’ve
got a week off and nowhere to go. I’m going to do a “way early” sign up
for next year though, and I’ll be there unless the whole stinkin’ house
floats away. Forget that, even if it floats away. Besides, this way I can
cheat, and get Sniper 2 in with Mike and James before the competition ;-)
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, July 18,
2000 at 14:35:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
O.K> it had to come to this. Here is the code for SC DR. A Code
number from 1 to 7 should proceed your post according to the list below
to describe the content in order to prevent misunderstandings and shootouts.
1. This is totally trivia, I could give a shit less and so should
you!(this post may or may not contain mathematic references that don't
mean shit in the real world. And above all don't take it so damn personal
cause I don't know/know your ass and don't particularly want to converse
further if you can't take a joke.)
2. There might be some truth in it but I don't want to argue over
any of it cause it's mostly conjecture.(actually I'm just bragging about
my shooting/tactical ability or old war service.This post may contain reloading
data which might blow your ass off the planet so don't be asshole and try
to use it. )
3. I'm pissed and been into the brew, tired as hell so don't bother
me with BS. I just want to sit here a think about women/sheep I've known.
I've had knot head students/wives/kids/bosses up to my ass by the way!
4. No BS here, I'd really like to know, but am basically afraid
to ask
but don't take it as an all out assault. If you and I were face
to face I'd buy you a beer and aplogize when it's over.
5.If your so damn good and know so damn much, come out here and
I'll take you to the range and give some lessons you sack of shit!).
6. I'm serious as death, if I were more serious someone would have
to die.
7. This post may contain political rhetoric or hunting stories so
best just go on to the tactical "good stuff". Just let me have my say and
I'll crawl back in my hide where they keep the Bravo Beer.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 14:37:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
6: Marius, Sarge, Pete, Scott, etc: maybe we oughta put a HELP button
on the side of this post box - so that a poster can pick from one of those
7 settings.....
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 14:45:57 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
Cast bullets /// lead alloys
hard cast lead , he has tin in 1” x 6” bars , pulverized antimony
, a ( non flare up or smoking )flux to alloy the antimony at low temp.
E-mail alloymetalsmith@theriver.com phone 520-458-5321 sometime runs an
ad in the gun list and is in the handloader digest.
Castin & Blastin, Ca., USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 15:27:06
(ZULU) (your host address: 130.191.26.62)
Light verses heavy barrels;
Now that the pi**ing contests are over, I hope, lets get back to
shooting subjects. I followed the light verses heavy barrel but I did not
put in my two cents worth then so here it comes. I don't think a light
barrel will change POI if it is square with the action. IMO the POI change
comes from the barrel heating and "bending" at the action when they are
not true. I have built a lot of light barreled rifles that show no signs
of POI change when hot. Now with that said I think it is easier to get
better accuracy with the heavy barrel as the rifle is more stable, and
less prone to shooter error but I don't think the barrel is more accurate
just a more solid shooting platform.
Just my two cents worth.
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 16:41:11 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.103.143)
Hey Guys,
Remix <re_mix27@hotmail.com>
Eugene, OR, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 17:32:43 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.138.110.34)
6: Bill, no fries.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 18:30:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.71)
Ken,
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
RSA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 18:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
196.15.184.78)
Hey,
I have the following questions, forgive my ignorance.
but you guys say the new Rem. VS has one piece. Did I get jipped
with an old rifle, or am I misuderstanding terms?
Brazoria, TX, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 18:59:33 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.64.87.199)
Doug,
If you have a Remington VS it has a one piece bedding block. The
problem with the bipod may be not enough clearance in the barrel channel.
Take a wooden dowl and sand paper and give it a little more clearance and
that should take care of your problem. As far as cheap ammo its all over
but just like the stuff you broke it in with its not very accurate. If
you want accurate ammo you must pay for it, accuracy comes with a price,
the more accurate, the more expensive, the same with rifles.
I may not understand the way your saying it, but I have found that
my accuracy goes away when my sporter barrels start to get hot. I have
found that it comes back after they cool. I may be confusing your statement
about accuracy and point of impact. I know that the light barrels can be
as consistant as a heavy barrel on the first groups or so but I have found
that as they heat up my accuracy starts to degrade. In fact I have found
this in my heavy barrels as they got hot. I hate to admit it but there
was a time when I was brutal on barrels when I started shooting and probably
ruined a many good barrel do to lack of knowledge about what heat did to
them. Our temps get pretty high out here in the summer and I "USED To"
(Not any more) get barrels so hot you would burn your hand if you touched
it, I was a gunsmiths wet dream!! I guess what I am trying to say is, are
you saying that you feel that when the barrel heats up it doesn't degrade
the accuracy?? And wouldn't that be because of a slight POI change?? All
the rifles I am talking about have had the actions squared and lapped and
are bedded with a couple free floated and a couple bedded for the first
2". If this is the case why would we want to build the heavy rifles for
tactical shooting??? I do understand what your saying about the shooting
platform but I have shot some pretty nice groups with sporters and in a
tactical situation you don't hardly ever get to have a good platform other
than bipods and the ground. I think I know where your coming from but I
still feel that the heavy barrels shoot better over more rounds and thats
because of the lack of heat build up.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 19:38:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
peteR,Bill Rogers,Hank,Mike Miller,
thank you very much for your replies.
Good shooting guys.
Ciao
G.I.Joe
<ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 19:52:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.36.45)
I am looking for a 15 or 20 MOA scope base for my AR15 flat-top.
I am familiar with the Badger base for Rem 700's. I am mounting a Leupold
4-14 mil-dot on it and It would be nice to have the extra elevation available.
Does anyone know of a production base that is made specifically for AR's?
CA, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 19:58:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.128.192.52)
Pat,
I am sorry if your think that I called you a clown. The real clown
can be found in the Aug. 99 archives. 18'th to be exact. I won't let you
take the fall for this.
Again, I apologize.
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 20:11:57 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.188)
Bad Karma - if your cast bullets are frosty, it sounds like your
bullet mould isn't hot enough. I generally throw the first few bullets
back into the pot until the mould gets up to temp. I also preheat the mould
by laying it on my pot while the metal melts. If the mould gets too hot,
it's generally indicated by lead smears when you cut the sprues. Hope this
helps. For what it's worth, I usually cast straight wheelweights, and keep
the velocities down for lead bullets. Use good lube and you shouldn't have
major leading problems.
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 20:27:00 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.186)
Where can I find a list of the balistic coefficients of different
bullets?
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 22:56:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Anyone know where I can find single boxes of the Federal 175gr GMM?
I'd really like to try a box or two before I consider buying a case.
Thanks,
Bruce
Bruce <BCqc@aol.com>
Fort Worth, Tx., USA - Tuesday, July 18, 2000 at 23:17:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.199.31)
Doug, Its not the bipod. In my experience, there are three areas
that need attention on the H&S stocked Remingtons that are well within
you ability to correct. This is by no means a flame on H&S or Remington.
Both companies provide a superb mass produced product. However, there are
limitations to the one size fits all. First, Barrel slap is common on these
rifles. Disassemble and inspect your stock. At the fore end, you will notice
a shiny mark where the barrel slaps the stock upon recoil. Sand this down
... not too much... just some swipes with 80-100 grit wrapped around a
1" dowel. Repeat as necessary. Second area: Stock bolts impacting bedding
block. Carefully inspect your bedding block screw holes. If you see striations
resembling the bolt threads inside the bedding block holes, that means
that the guard screws are flexing on recoil and impacting the bedding block.
Open the holes up to about 11/32". You can also purchase a steel guard
and hex bolts. Email me and I'll send you a few bolts... you will have
to trim them to length to custom fit your stock-action...an easy task.
Keep the torque on these bolts constant...i.e. if you pick 60 inch pounds,
always use 60 inch pounds. Most settle on 65 inch pounds.Your zero will
shift substantially otherwise. Be advised, if you use 60-65 inch pounds,
eventually the guard bolts are going to pull through the crap metal guard
Remington gives you. Thats the reason for the steel guard. The pull through
probably occurs after a few thousand rounds... not exactly sure. Never
took one that far. The last area is the crown. The factory crowns SUX.
Brownells makes an 11 degree cutter that you can recut your crown with
in the privacy of your own home. For the record, my old PSS went from a
3/4" gun to a 1/3" gun just by drilling out the bedding block bolt holes
a few thou. Think through what you need to do. If you're not comfortable
doing the above, by all means buy the experience of a professional gunsmith.
Good luck.
Bill971 <lhardin1@netscape.net>
Gulf Coast, FL, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 00:08:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.92.204.182)
Anyone have ballisitc/reloading info for .308 Portugeese 147 gr?
Matt <smohabbat@earthlink.net>
St. Louis, MO, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 00:15:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.217.62.60)
I would like to see a test on the Remington PSS in .300 Ultra Mag.
Some ballistic comparrison between the Ultra and the Win Mags. and perhaps
Leupold's new 8.5-25x50mm (30mm tube) Long Range Target Scope. Any information
you can lead me to would be great.
Justin Campbell <jjcampbell@pepalum.com>
Seaside, CA, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 00:16:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 172.157.123.135)
The Demise of Tactical Shooter?:
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 00:50:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
Does anyone have good/bad experience with the IOR Valdada illuminated
reticle scopes, specifically the 4x24 M2 for the AR15/M16 type rifles.
I am looking for a fixed 4 or 6x powered scope with illuminated rangfinding
reticle.
M11subguns <M11subguns@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 01:08:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.93.68.240)
Steve(Nato Bright),
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 03:05:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.176)
Pete,
I see your point. I saw this before you did and did apologise to
at least one innocent third party involved publicly.
Ball will track with the (168gr. Y dial), I am sure that you meant
to say,
M852, but we all have those little brain farts now and then.
There may be no meters cam for the 168 gr. bullet but if you can
load the 168 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can use the (308-2600 M)
cam and
be close.
There may also be no yards cam for the 175 gr. bullet but if you
load the 175 gr. bullet to 2700 fps you can also use the (180 gr.
2700
Y cam) for the 30-06 and be even closer.
It takes a techno-geek to know these things. :-)
(your host address: 209.143.1.244)"
No!
and I think think the whole issue went over your head last year,
and it went over your head again... you haven't got it yet.
You can't shoot tactical matches with a computer program.
If those are your definitions of "close enough", you would place
last in every match I've ever shot in...
Pablito
Wednesday, August 18, 1999 at 21:09:37 (ZULU)"
Steve <nato@bright. net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 03:42:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.46)
Now that that life or death issue(???) is PUT TO REST(!!!), does
anyone have any experience with the illuminated reticles from Leupold?
How good do they work?
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 03:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.80)
I am considering the purchase of either a deluxe bull twenty-four
special from DPMS or a super varmint AR.223 from Les Baer Custom and was
wondering if anyone has had experience with either of these rifles? Any
info that could help me choose between them would be greatly appreciated.
Jeff <jsbolier@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 04:09:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.197.198)
Karl:
Kobus Du Toit <satg_za@yahoo.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 05:37:13
(ZULU) (your host address: 196.34.250.5)
My question is for anyone with a TBA M40A1. Is it worth the money
and how does it shoot? I know there is about a 12-18 month wait and that
isn't a problem but I'd like to get some feedback about the weapon itself.
I'm contemplating selling my NM M1A to buy it and I do't want to do that
it it's not worth it. After reading Mike Lau's book it seems like it is
but I want to hear from owners. Drop me an e-mail if you could. Thanks.
Rob <tommyk9@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 11:01:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.192.183)
Justin,
to have some answers go to http://www.remington.com/AMMO/PAGES/centerfire/pre_ultramag.htm
Ciao
G.I.Joe
<ggijoe@hotmail.com>
Italy - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 11:07:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.11.37.49)
Steve,
No appology necessary, I didn't take it as and insult. Just wanted
to say I had professed the use of the 06 dial and re doing your own.
Good advice on the VS!! I just wanted to say, although I agree the
floor plates are crap I have never had one pull through. I have a VS thats
on its third barrel and its still going strong. It has to have over 10,000
rounds through it by now. I do bed them though and I know that probably
would make a difference.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 12:04:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Just curious:
How many of you going to the SMTC match in Sept?
How many for the trainup?
Any of you doing SS1 and SS2 before the match?
Any side wagers on the individual events or top shooter? I've got
this new McBros built 300 win mag that's been shooting 1/4 MOA and I'd
like to get in on the wagers or at least for the brews and the cigars.
Any of you bringing the little woman or is this strickly sheep country?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 12:07:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Tony, I'm attending the train up and competition this year. I don't
want to make any wagers, as my goal is to survive and pass...I hold little
hope of "placing" with the likes of Lito, Mike M. etc possibly showing....
I'm coming to pay my dues, listen and LEARN, LEARN, LEARN.
NJ, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 12:55:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Pat;
I will try and explain my opion a little better. If the barrel/action
is not true and square the barrel will hit on one side and not the other.
When the barrel heats up it will "grow in length" and it will push on the
tight side but it will "bend" to the loose side thus changing the POI and
group size. If the barrel/action are true to each other it cannot do this.
I have a friend/hunting buddy that uses a 223 that I built for him and
in a PD field he has that barrel hot enough to cook on with NO POI changes
and it is a thin barrel.
As for my statement about a more solid shooting platform I was talking
about shooting prone with the heavier rifle absorbing some of the shooters
tremors, heart beat, Etc. with "LESS" effect on the accuracy.
Again just my two cents worth
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 14:06:12 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.65.15)
Doug,
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 14:14:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.3.204.222)
Tony Y.,
If I could just get this burlap and shoe goo undone from my cemented
together fingers maybe there some time to practice.........
RAINY BIG CITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 14:17:01
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.56)
Tony Y I'll be at the match this Sep. at SMTC. And I'll wager you
a brew if you want. I don't drink beer but you can bye me a pop.
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
MI, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 14:44:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.24.102.133)
What tactical rifles are the most accurate by manufacturer?
little rock, ar, USA - Wednesday, July 19, 2000 at 15:23:25 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.206.183)
LEMAY, what the heck do you mean you don't drink beer? Did you start
taking it by IV? Is'nt the lack o