B. Douglas: How about this one:
Large Oak alone in the center of the clearing (or large rock, red flowers, etc)
Check
27 mils right
Check
14 mils up, a squarish shrub
Check
Four mils to the right, a woolybuggar having a bad hair day, make it worse
Check and bang.

Dano / Bruce E: this is THE way to go for small applications like this. Just beware, as JB weld WILL ruin your day given the chance. Anyone who doesn't think that "permanent" discribes this stuff, I can show you a 4X4 (not mine) with a 4" circle of JB that replaces a knocked out section of transfer case, and it still works! As for Loc-Tite, most of the ones used for scope applications can be "unloctited" by either placing the part in boiling water for a few minutes or just BARELY touching the bolt body with a propane torch. I'd hold the ring barely in the water, but not submerge the scope!

No takers on the constitutional question? C'mon guys, I KNOW you read the document that we've sworn an oath to uphold :-) Everyone have a GREAT 4th, and let's spend it in a way that would make Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin proud.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 18:00:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

On non-lethal self-defense items: Read Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime". According to his studies, you are more likely to be be unharmed in an attack if you use a firearm, but if you don't have a firearm you are more likely to be unhurt if you comply with the attacker's demands vs using a non-lethal item.

IF you still want a non-lethal alternative, there is a product known as bear repellant. It's a can about 1 1/2 x 4 inches of 10% pepper spray that shoots out 30 feet that is supposed to stop a grizzly bear attack. They give them to backbackers in Donally Park in Alaska.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 18:03:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.162.86.225)

A MilDot scope would be nice and it is planned for in the budget. It will be a bit of time before I grab one op though.

I'll look into the RangeCards, I'll probably get a couple terain maps drawn up of the places we shoot most. Then I guess it is just a simple matter of making a easy to follow grid on it.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, I'm gonna sit outside and watch the bug zapper for the 4th., USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 19:14:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.2.182)

The problem is that the target will be at a further point by the time the bullet gets there, then at the time you fired it right ?

I find it difficult to judge the speed in fps right and then apply some sort of memorized lead.

So, I give the target one second of travel in which I measure its traveled distance in Mil. Counting "twentyone" works for me and is close enough. Just practise a little and you know how fast or slow you have to say "twentyone" to cover one second.

So you then know the target covers say 6 Mil in one "twentyone" second.

From the range that you have milled you can figure your TOF to target will be say .3 Seconds.

Given that the target will cover 6 Mil in one full second it will only cover one third of that, 2 Mil , in .3 of a second.

Apply a 2 Mil lead and fire.

Doing it here on paper is a lot harder that doing it in a Mil Dot Scope. It only takes a extra second to figure out and will be on the money 90 % of the time.

And it is easy to memorize the TOF´s. One second is usually 600 Meters with most 7.62x51 loads.

Hope this works for you

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
DE - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 19:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.143)

Anyone know how long(round count) it takes for that stuff to shoot out of the bore of a rifle that has been cleaned with CLP or other one step cleaner/lubes? Just curious how long that stuff sticks around, kind of like if you swallow a piece of chewing gum it is supposed to stay in your crap factory for up to 10 years.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 22:56:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.98)

Shootem while you gottem!
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, July 03, 2000 at 23:57:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.45.212)

Thanks
Green <greentips@hotmail.com>
Canada - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 01:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.112.244.21)

The dreaded math again,

First find the lead in feet:

target speed (fps) x time in flight (sec)

Once you have that, then get the lead in mils:

(Lead in ft from center mass X 12) - 6 / (range x .035)

Then take in to consideration full/half/no lead, wind adjustments/angle/altitude/temperature, the list goes on and on and as Bill said, try about a thousand rounds or so.

Later dudes

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 01:58:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.130)

If you got the time use it, the ambush method allows for a better postion etc. - Most trap shooters aren't using slings/bipods-

- Walking tgt, full mil lead (use the first dot) 7.62 175gr
At least close enough for Gov't work
Running (in Kit) around 2.5 mils. better yet use the G'pig |--> rounds down range:)
 
 
 

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 02:37:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.48)

A Mil-Dot Palm 'mputer Torsten you're ona roll again! TLMAO!

A electricians soldering iron can also be used for application of heat to a loctited screw or bolt, better heat control and you won't burn up that custom paint job.

Once again have a SAFE and happy 4th of July America.
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 03:15:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.157)

-c
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, id, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 03:53:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.208.35)

dont want to start a pissing contest, but what you are telling me is to apply the "skeet" shooting aproach to the problem.

Which will work, but at what distance ?

I had the problem teaching a class to shoot a running moover at 300 and 500 meters. I put my ball´s on the block, did my calculation and fired a magazine full out of my ugly rifle.

So was I only lucky ?

As soon as the target stops I will miss because he wont be in the place the bullet will be, so can your "only when he stops" idea please.

Also I find my way of calculating a lot easier than the fps rountine.

I dont need to know the speed in feet per second, I need to know the speed Mil per Second at the give range and the TOF thats all!

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 06:11:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.14)

The National Tower is down, the media's gone, and a very tired Danny is back home without incident.

I need some opinions, I'm planning on buying another .308, I want an out of the box number that I don't have to spend a fortune on rebarreling etc. to make it shoot tight groups.

Whats your opinons on the better gun Remington 700VS or Winchester Stealth? I'm sure some of you are familiar with both.

Happy 4th of July!

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville , Pa, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 15:28:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.35.85)

On the Unertal Scopes. US Optics has the deal to make scopes for the Marines DM Rifles. They are not Unertals at this point. The Marines still have Unertals. What will happen to Unertal is up in the air. I hope a company/US Optics is able to take them over. US Optics has made great strides in recent times to make great products.

On movers try and wait until they stop.LOL I prefer to track them. I screw the lead thing up more often.

I am starting to map out some future class dates. James Jarrett and I are getting together on this. We will post when it is set. One word though, because of recent events all cash for lodging and food will be paid in advance.

Anyonre see this months article on Molly in Tactical Shooter? I still think Molly should not be used in a sniper rifle. I can not see cleaning a rifle and then shooting five rounds so your CBS will be the same as before. I wonder if every time you go shooting and you put an extra five rounds through it, you are not wearing the bbl out that much sooner, with all the extra rounds that will be fired. Seems like you are losing that so called advantage of getting more rounds through a bbl because of the Molly being slicker. Think about it you go to the range and shoot twenty rounds, clean it and fire five more, or 25% more every time you go. Unless you get 25% more life from the bbl with Molly you lose, plus the ammo cost also goes up. Molly cost more and you are shooting more. Just a thought. Any rifle builders have anything to add or subtract?

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 15:40:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

I agree w/ you 100%, the bullets passing through the bore, Never has and never will wear out a barrel.( at least from sidewall contact).

What does, is the amount of POWDER ignited each round.( which you have to increase to get same vel's w/ Moly).

My contention on Moly, having been there and done that, is it's a pain.

If you do the process correctly, you have to shoot (usually) 5-10 rounds, to re-settle your zero.This in itself is a waste of money, and valuable barrel wear.(THROAT EROSION).

Those that shoot moly, and do NOT clean thorougly after each outing, are asking for trouble, and premature death of their bores.

I had a long discussion w/ a person at a very well known barrel mfgr.
Seems people were sending their barrels back, claiming defect's, problems w/ accuracy etc.

After examination, what was happening was a lack of cleaning, leading to a build up of Moly in the throat area.In effect, the build up was "constricting", the bore, and therefore damaging the bullet(deforming it)before it ever got to the rifling.

Another potential problem has been discussed, and discovered also, Moly when left in a bore is prone to absorb moisture, this has led to rusting/pitting of "stainless", barrels.Heretofore unheard of.

Mike's point is same as mine, who needs this kind of "POTENTIAL", headache?.

I shot Moly extensively in .308's, and always , had a copper fouled barrel, underneath the moly.Those that do so , and don't have this same occurence are either doing something entirely different than the rest of us, or are just adding layers of Moly on top of layers of copper.

Without even being aware of it.......sorry for the long post, just a lot of opinion.......have a great "INDEPENDENCE DAY", and remember those that gave their all for "ALL", of us.

Like Undude, let's not lose any more ground.............fwiw...tshoes (Terry).
TSHOES <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 16:14:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.42)

I was kinda confused (not suprising huh?)on the article too. Just the transition to the 175 Match Kings should have gave them a VAST improvement on basically everything needed.
ANY kinda stuff in the barrel is BAAAD Ju-Ju. Moly, PFTE (teflon for us Yanks), Miracle powders, whatever. Lets not start that thread again...................
 

Danny,

How come I Couldn't hear the Boom on my side of the bridge?? ;-)
 

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 16:38:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.51)

Which leads us to a valid reason we might not want to rush and cut our barrels to 20": those of us who are both basicaly cheapskates and have lathes can shorten and rechamber a 26" tube once or twice before we reach 20"...thats up to 15,000 accurate rounds out of Remington's $30 barrel...well, at least once in the case of the PSS, owing to its contour. I suppose thats a reason to go with a full bull 'contour". :)
 

-Tom

But by then the shank diamter will be about right to make a 16.5" small-ring Mauser barrel...20,000....25,000... :)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, in the no-longer (officialy) Confederate flagged state of SC, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 20:24:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Have fun guys.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayettteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 22:11:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.183)

Now dont go and say that a variable power scope will fix this because what happens to a variable power scopes mil scale (American made)? I'll leave that question open ended..

Out here and headed for another beer.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 04, 2000 at 22:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

I know there's more here than meets the eye, I just am too stupid to figure it out..............tshoes( Now somewhere in Kansas w/ Dorothy, Todo died.)
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 03:50:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.197)

I just got back from my first range day with my new GA Precision rifle...Fit and finish is second to none and the rifle shoots like a dream...Anyone considering purchasing a new rifle should give George and call first...You can see some of his work at www.dennysguns.com go to the precision rifle link...MG
MG <mg6680@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 06:32:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.15.153.60)

Moly and leading, well, there are 2 things that I can't add to. I shoot 'em naked (the bullets, not the walkers), because it's good enough for me, and I don't see any REASON to go to moly. Except for lube, which I will advocate for a pistol or rifle in a heartbeat. Great stuff! My mix is 50% (v/v) non-lithium based high temp grease and 50% high grade moly (powder). Sticks good where you put it, and no, I don't use ANY oil on the M-25. Just that grease mixture.

Basements almost done, might get to shoot some time soon. Hopefully.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 18:13:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

To look at each of them, the Sharpe is a complete redesign of the sear mechanism, while the Timney is essentially the same idea as the factory trigger, presumably with better finish and adjustment capabilities. Any thoughts on which route would be better?

TIA,
Rich
Rich <richf@usa.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 19:55:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.179.167.124)

I plan on custom making a stock or just going with a Choate 'Ultimate Sniper' stock.

I hope you can help.

Thanks!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 20:31:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Um, now that look back at it, my post dosnt have all that much to do with yours. I suppose that it just inspired me somehow to have a *flash* of creative thought. :)

-Tom
was sober but a bit sleepy at the time
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 05, 2000 at 21:04:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

I know I sound like a smart ass but in the end you'll have less spare parts laying around and more money for ammo.

Out here
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 04:17:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.158)

Your suggestion for a 2-week course is what we had originally planned for the last Long Range Tactical Rifle course which you attended. The second week was to have been a Special Operations Tactics and Techniques Course. There were some very heavy instructors laid on right out of SOTIC and former SOG guys. We had no takers. Most folks cannot afford the time, money or physical abuse from 2 solid weeks of training unless they are in peak physical condition. Trust me, I have my SEAL team guys draggin' after 10 days. I'd love to run 2-week courses, but the market just isn't there.

Mike and I will be running an Advanced Sniper and a CQB course possibly in September for 5 days. Guys can take either course or both depending on what they want to do. We'll probably throw in a 2-day tactical topo map reading and encryption course at the end.

De Oppresso Liber,

James
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:00:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.193.169)

I would tend to agree with you regarding the difficulty of attending a two week course. I had a fantastic time for the week that we were out at the ASA facility, but I had to schedule it w a y in advance. The demands of a wife, kids and a career make it challenging to drop out of sight for more than a week.

You and Mike were VERY gentle on us, and I suspect that even the little crawling and fast walking that we did do wore some of us out!

It has been a month since we were there, but I certainly do think about the great time I had and the things that I learned on a daily basis!

As soon as you and Mike get the schedule worked out for the next class please let us know so we can start working on the domestic issues early!

I know that you and Mike get a lot of good press here on the roster, but it is truly well deserved!

Thanks again for all that you, Mike, RB, Bob, and LT did for all of us!

Michael Sheehan <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Ho, CCCP, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:22:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.132.118)

Bill.
Bill Byford <byfords@obtnet.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 05:44:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.20.172.64)

Have Fun, Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 16:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.68.14)

However, another question arises. I recently was turned on to the Steyr ProHunter as a possibility in either .243 or 25-06. Apparently, the barrel is cold hammer forged and made to where it heates up evenly. Some say they are very accurate right out of the box. Plus, if the mood should strike you, there is an extended magazine kit that will turn your 4 rnd into a 10 rnd.

Their web site is: http://www.gsifirearms.com

Any comments on that?

Again, thanks!!!
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 17:42:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

What is the favorite (of this website) in terms of semi-auto sniper setups? Preferably a setup that won't break the bank of a modestly paid guy. :)

Thanks!
 

Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 17:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Really guys, James was reeking havoc in bad places about the time I was being BORN. For me to say that I could keep up with him would be wishful thinking on my part, and the truth would quickly be dispelled from several quarters. I've watched snakes move slower than James bellycrawling. This is PART of the reason I always refer to him as "the real deal"!

And Michael was right, you guys were pretty easy on us. Thankfully.

Kevin: c'mon out. We need your cash. And bring some of that "world famous" Canadian Beaver brew. Heck, I'll trade you for it ;-)

Chase: cryo does nothing? Look up "marstinetic" and "austinetic" phases of steel, and see where the phase change occurs. Could be you're right, but my Kreiger was double cryoed (it helps big time in the machining process to be cryo'ed before hand) as they leave Kreiger, they're ALL single cryoed before they leave. Kreiger is another good source of info for non-engineers (or chemists). If you ask, they'll give you their materials engineer reference. Good stuff. For a $35 barrel, dunno if it would help though. BTW, I agree completely with the bedding comment.

Orion: aw, c'mon now. You mean you've not heard me sing the praises of the M-25? Everyone else here has heard it enough to sing it (grudgingly in some cases) with me. Don't take my word for it, ask some of the ASA guys. The suckers SHOOT! And whatever I did (again) it wouldn't be to get any 25-06. My Shillen was burned out so quick, well, I won't go into it. Let's just say that I wouldn't own another 25-06. But if you buy one, you know where to get the barely used dies cheap!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 18:15:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

So, you don't like the 25-06 I take it then? Since this is an important discussion, what calibers are the mainstay of those of you on this site?
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 19:28:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Orion,
If you get the ADL cheap enough you can have a custom barrel and action work done for around $500 and then pick up a PSS or VS stock off the eporium for $100 to $150 and have it bedded and then your into a nice rifle for not to bad of a price. I have bought ADLS for around $220 to $250. Just a thought.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 19:30:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

So, did anyone have an opinion on the Steyr ProHunter?
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 20:33:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Torsten: The most practical sight is a regular german sniperscope with a nr.1 or nr.3 reticle. The scope should be set at battleposition:300-350m. On a "walking" target at 90 deg. just put the tip on sidebar on the target, follow it, and pull the trigger. This works well with regular 147gr 7.62 NATO ammo at 2750fps. (Forget slow 168gr ammo.) If there are a lot of runners around a nr.xA reticle might be better.

Accuracy on moving targets is quite different than regular accuracy. Figure this: An olympic moving target champ shooting more than 30000 rounds a year usually shoot 2-3moa groups on moving targets under perfectly controlled conditions. This is with a competitionrig at 100m chambered for 222rem with 50gr/3200fps and 20X scope. He also have an exact amingpoint. I've never seen a shooter who has not trained on moving targets shoot less than 8 moa centered groups.(10 shot string = two 5 shot groups, left and right mover)

The most important factor for moving target accuracy on unknown targets are:
-Highest possible MV for shortest TOF.
-Fast locktime.
-Low recoil.
-KISS scope/reticle.

A sniperrifle chambered for .223rem will outshoot any largecaliber rifle with standard rounds at practical ranges. Without doubt the new swedish sniperround, 7.62NATO APDS, is the best military round for moving targets. Nothing else comes close.

TorF
 

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 06, 2000 at 22:25:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

And listen to Pat, he's done that 25-06 thing too. Not just me. I'm die hard 7.62mm NATO (even in the next Garand), but thanks to some of these guys - and you know who you are, I'm working HARD at NOT getting a 6.5X308 (260 Rem). That'd be the only other caliber I'd play with (except the poodle shooter of course). I've not played extensively with the 243, but I would assume from it's over bore capacity that it'd be a real barrel burner too.

C Baker: we've got something called "the emporium" might wanna check it out.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 00:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.140)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 00:11:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

So the question is:
AI AICS system II Vs. McMillan A4.

Thanks in advance.
 

Awx <awx01@hotmail.com>
Comox, British Columbia, Canada - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 00:29:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.65.9.152)

Just wanted to let you guys and gals know, I finally got all the images posted for the IOR line of scope mounting systems. Check 'em out! Marius also posted the images of the binos - all of them. Finally, IOR just came out with a spotting scope that is just short of amazing. It is not posted yet but we hope to review it shortly.

PS: For those of you who have been pounding me about it, the SC T-shirt will be BACK IN BLACK. Not yet, but upon my next order the color will be BLACK. Satisfied???

Other good news in terms of review material! SWFA has kindly agreed to loan the staff several telescopic sights over the next few months. The first review to come from this will be the Kahles ZF95 in 6x42. I would like some imput from those of you in LE on what you would like to see reviewed in the next several months. If you are considering Swarovski's, Kahles, Stiener, S&B or other European optics, please let me know as it now looks like I will be able to reveiw maybe one a month if all goes well. I'd rather consentrate on the glass you guys will actually be considering for duty use or as an upgrade. Your input is welcome.

Later gang! Have a great weekend!

Scott
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 01:38:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.71.86.7)

At this juncture, I ma not sure which way to point you. Its all a matter of where you want to go with the rifle ultimatly, I suppose. It would be a much easier decision to make if Remington had that great a track record of shipping PSSs that are up to spec, ie, a reliable 3/4 MOA gun out of the box. My trials in getting that level of performance out of my 700 PSS are well documented in the archives (first half of '99). The short version: it was a 2 1/4 MOA gun out of the box, with a grossy defective crown and bedding job. It took a $110 dollar set of crown cutting tools and a bedding job to fix, all *after* wasting my time shipping it to the factory and them refusing to do anything to it. I managed to do the work myself but to hire a gunsmith to fix that stuff would have cost what? $150 or more? And from what I understand this has been an entirely too common situation in the last couple of years. At that rate plus the $700 the PSS cost to begin with, I could have almost bought the ADL, gotten in a basic HS or McMillan stock and had a name-brand barrel custom fitted and a basic glass job. It was my original intention to do just this but for once I wanted a rifle I didnt have to screw with. Heh.

Now my PSS shoots a very reliable and stable .6 MOA and is confirmed a solid sub-MOA shooter to 500 yards. That will do. I suppose you can reasonably gamble on a 700PSS if you care to 'cause most of them seem to deliver the nominal .75 MOA or better but I'm not sure if I'd care to again. Another question is, how far do you intend to build the gun? If you think you are going to go full-house and end up with a near-Chandler-spec rifle anyway, why spend the extra money on the PSS? To fill up the used parts bin with more expensive junk than you would have taken off the ADL? I dunnow...

Split the difference and get a VS? Perhaps the most sensible option of all. They seem to have been better executed of late anyway.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, in the seasonably warm state of SC, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 02:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

So, bottom line is, if I want increadible accuracy, I'm going to be putting in a 'small fortune' then. Correct?

I really appreciate all the advise. I know that you all are the ones with this knoweledge. :)
 
 

Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 03:55:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Option 1. Contact Ken Hunter as he is selling a PSS.

Option 2.
a. Purchase M700VS in .308. No fluting. Looks good but not needed. I've heard that the VS is actually turning out better accuracy figures than the PSS.
b. Badger Ordnance rings and tapered base. This is a mandatory step. Anything else will leave you wanting later.
c. Leupold M3LR scope or another Leupold/Premier reticle scope that fits your budget.

THis formula will get you a SOLID basic package to learn with. As you get more experienced you can modify it as desired. In effect you will have a version of the US Army M24.

You wanna know why this is the magic formula dive into the archives.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 06:56:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.169)

Thanks
Jon Cole <jcole@osl.com.au>
Sydney, NSW, Australia - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 07:44:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.108.52.254)

Along with this, should a time ever arise where I feel it necessary to use the rifle in a hunting situation, I want to be able to take the animal with as much speed as possible, in order to limit it's trauma. And in the unfortunate (and probably unlikely) event of a conflict on our soil, I want to be able to take long enough shots so my location is away from the immediate area of fire. I suppose that is what "sniping" is about, although I don't call myself that at all. But to me, the tactic seems sound, if survival is your top priority. Of course, I'm new to all this, and may not know what I'm talking about! :)

Thanks, I hope this helps you consult me.
Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 13:46:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Your Savage bolt rifle should have it's action screws torqued to 25 inch/pounds (be carfull, that's INCH/pounds), according to the technical-assistance folks at Savage. I just checked with them about mine. The new ones have pillar bedding, but I think 25 is the place to start, anyway. The traditional rule of thumb regarding free-floating is to free-float heavy barrels, but allow gentle upward pressure at the front of the forend with lightweight barrels. This seems to have something to do with vibration harmonics. Of course, if you shoot quickly enough to heat up a sporter-weight barrel, it may really squirm around (regardless of bedding). But that's not what they're for, anyway. Regardless, torque it and shoot it. It may not need anything else.

Good luck.
SFC(R) North <kettlebelly@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, Mo, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 14:47:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.32.107.226)

Kevin: Fly into Albuquerque and we can pick you up or rent a car so you don't have to drive but about 2.5 hours.

Anyone here care to give an opinion on a guy that doesn't pay his debts? Just curious to see what this bunch of shooters thinks about honor.

De Oppresso Liber,

James
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 15:55:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

De Oppresso Liber
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 16:18:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

I don't think that Honor and "honoring your debts" are exactly the same thing.

That said, I believe that paying your dues, whether they be monetary or other, is the pre-requisite to credibility.

Honor is about doing the Right thing, even if everyone else is doing otherwise.

I don't think it has to be any more complicated than that, unless your gonna get a lawyer involved 

my opinion - everyone has one.
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 16:43:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

G.I. Joe: Great to hear I'm not alone! Now another chorus for those who aren't "indoctrinated" yet ;-)

Chase: I'm not a metalurgist either, but I got one just a few offices down. Helps to be able to reference others schooling on occasion. He's not a shooter, but I've specifically asked about barrels when researching how to have mine done. I'm only half competent to speak on the subject personally, but I can parrot what a PhD says! As for cooling, CTB's, and with cryo, you let it "heat up" over a full day 1 deg C per several minutes. Should keep equilibrium nicely. Stresses should be reduced, if I understand correctly, due to the corrections in crystal latice.

James: offend me with the truth? I think not! First run in the Corps was a 5 miler, thought I would barf a lung up. Got to where I could do it with EASE. Now, I'd barf up a lung AND a spleen. TonyY got it right, I'll get there, just takes me a little longer. Besides, that's why I was told to not haphazardly hit halftracks ;-) As for people who don't pay debts, I think they work for State Farm insurance. The car I took to your place has been wrecked for almost 2 months (I drove it out there that way) and the other person's insurance (their fault!) won't "make right". Names and numbers will be given out to all potential hecklers.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 18:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

I do not think it is a question of choosing the "right or wrong" way since the definition of each is extremely relative. You set goals and you make decisions; some decisions are mode productive towards achieving your goals than others.

I will speak for myself for I dare not make any form of generalization about the subject. I came in this world naked and naked I will leave when my time is up. The only thing that I truly have and dare claim as my own is my Word. Remaining true to my Word is my definition of honour. Whether it is a debt or a date; it matters not.

To cite my father who still uses this line : "A Man without a sense of honour defines a being whose ethical and biological functions serve no other purpose but to fertilize the ground and whose bodily mass does nothing more but add to earth's gravity".

I hope you all excuse my philosophical streak but being Greek, I can not help it. >:)
 
 

Just the ramblings of a youngster...

AresP
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 18:12:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.222.165)

Mr. Jarrett, in reference to your question, where I come from, and the way I was taught. If a man doesn't pay his debts, incurred by himself,( usually requiring a signature).( or just the spoken promise to pay).

He has broken a solemn rule, that is, HE has made himself out to be a man of NO character.

You, are only as good as your word.

If that sacred trust is violated,then you have lost your integrity.
And that cannot ( most times), be ever regained.

Don't want to preach here, but Jesus said, in his own words: "Let your yes, be yes, and your no's, be no's. Anything more is of sin.

He also said, "Owe no man, anything". Sorry, off topic but applicable to your question.

Like a previous poster, just my .02's worth,and opinion, fwiworth.

Terry( TSHOES)
 

TERRY(TSHOES) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 18:18:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.46)

The Rem/Winchester question has been discussed a thousand times, and comments about the Rem problems have been posted here in the last week or two, and are constantly talked about... but you need to look at the Archives for the past two years... there is TONS of discussion on this stuff, and the reason that Marius maintains the Archives is for this very reason... also read the "Duty Roster Rules of engagement" just above the typing box at the top of this page.

Often, when basic questions like this are put on the Roster, they ARE ANSWERED... but are answered by e-mail, so as not to clutter up the roster with the "Same ol' same ol'"...... and Winchester is betterer!! (and I own a bunch of Rems)

Gas guns...
My vote is Springfield M21 (like the M25, only MUCH nicer;).

James J...
A man that voluntarily doesn't pay his debts has no honor to debate about.

Cryo barrels...
Last year, either American Rifleman, or Precision Shooting, published a test of a bunch of rifles, half Cryo'ed/half not, and found no improvement in accuracy, barrel life, throat life, or anything... NADA!
It's a waste of money.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 21:35:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

thanks
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 22:51:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 167.234.100.218)

A mans word IS his honor,and no man who posseses honor will dispute that.

Bruce E. <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.46)

who wants to shoot a popsicle anyway??!!

later
JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:47:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.184)

I'm old enough to remember when the shampoo industry was out of ideas to sell their perfumed junk, and invented the dread plague of "Hair odor"... God forbid if you were a woman with dreaded "Hair odod"... you were destined to be a spinster... and, of course, they came up with the solution, a deodorizing shampoo!

Where has it been documented that there is a problem with any supposed "barrel stress", and that it needed fixin'?... Nowhere that I know of.

And, if internal stress were a problem, I would think a few hours in a 800 degree oven would do a lot more to solve it, that a bath in liquid nitrogen...
... and of course, after all that, we stick a metal plug in the hole that is oversized, and force it in with 60,000 psi of pressure, and generate humongous "Stress"... and we're solving a problem???

The only problem being solved is the college tuition costs of the folk's kids, who kindly take your money for such foolisness.

As James Trafficant says... "Beam me up, Scotty!"

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 07, 2000 at 23:51:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

I had the oppertunity to shoot one of the Winchester M-70's of which you speak, the one with the black "canoe paddle stock".

Did the preliminary work during the begining of a driving wind By-Gawd blizzard and @ 100 yds with Federal .308 168 gr. Match ammo, groups of under one inch were the norm. I just could not get used to the safety location and the early 1990's price tag. My quirks, not the rifles!

Get what you wish, mount a VERY good scope in Badgers, and shoot the piss out of it.

Then buy a Model 700 PS or VS and do the same thing,

Then buy a Savage Tactical and do the same thing,

Then buy a SIG Tactical and do the same thing.......

*:-o
 

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 03:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.74)

James,
It is sad that one bad apple can sour the bunch. Hopefully there was enough good from our group to overcome the turd in the punch bowl! I would be more than happy to cover the loser's debt, but I think that would only excuse poor behavior.

Everyone at ASA was so generous and gracious it made an already good time great!

In this business there is a lot of trust and faith put in the people that you interact with. There are not many people from the "outside world" that I would want to have near me when they had loaded weapons in their hands. There are also not many people outside of the shooting world that I would trust with $3,500 worth of equipment with the hopes of getting paid. (And he came through like a champ!!)

Fortunately, everybody that I have had interaction with from this site has been honorable with the exception of the one "unique individual" that you were referring to. This is a small community, it is really very foolish for some people to not live up to their commitments! Please don't let one jerk turn you off from assisting the rest of us!

Michael

Michael Sheehan <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Hoe, CA, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 04:42:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

All right guys, I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest over this one (especially with a Patron!), but here's what I know in a nutshell about stresses. First off, you have mechanical, which is what Bruce E was quite correctly referencing. When you machine a part, you leave machine marks. Those non-uniform "ridges" create stress risers, that, if not worked over can blast a piston right through your head or block. Thus, we shot peen our conn rods and pistons, eliminating the machine marks. Yes, they make "peaks" of their own, but the pattern is non-regular. This works like a platoon of troops staggering thier pace when going over a bridge. Stagger means dry, in step means wet. Now, do we machine our barrels? Yup. The inside isn't the problem because it's smooth (hopefully), it's the outside. Thus, the slower the barrel is turned the less stress is in the barrel. Ruger barrels are notorious for this. Ever hear of heat stringing? You're not dissipating heat uniformly throughout the barrel due to a stress riser, thus causing warpage at a point. First shot (or how ever many) perfectly centered, then the "group" goes linear away from the center. Stress risers "bending" the barrel. The second is stress on a molecular basis (crystal latice of steel). If you've got martensite and austenite in the same barrel (which you will), one will expand at a mildly different rate than the other. To quote: "During the heat treating process the matrix of the steel transforms from austenite to martensite. However, the transformation is not 100% complete, and the non-transformed austenite is unstable and at room temperature retains stress.", "The cryogenic process makes the steel more homogeneous and stable by converting much of the retained austenite structure into martensite and by further stress-releiving the steel". Recommended by a materials expert at an independent lab.

Now, whether it's worth it in a barrel, fired, unfired, ripped off a rifle and slapped back on, whatever is outside my area of knowlege. I won't swear to you that it'll do squat. I can't. What I will swear to you is that you can get the mechanical stresses out enough to not matter. But without the cryo treatment (even if it's the old Swedish method from last century of heating and cooling in cycles), you won't get the stresses out at the molecular level. Blocky ferrite is a bad thing. Kreiger does it, it's good science, so I do it. The way I look at it, what's the minor charge on top of the barrel? Maybe it does no good, but I got the mental placebo. Or maybe it does work ;-) Either way, I'll guarentee that I'll shot peen all the conn rods that go in any of my engines that are worthy of good conn rods to begin with.

Sorry so long, I'll shut up for a while.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 05:42:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.216)

No pissin' contest, and I yeld to your "Martensite and Austenite" discussion points.

But my main point is nobody has shown the Cryo does anything to help a problem that has not been documented to exist, or cause a problem, in the first place.

How-some-ever... if it is something that adds to the self confidence factor (and I fully agree on the value of any "Juju" factor that gives you "faith") then it's worth it for that alone... but on a $600 barrel, not on a $35 barrel.
That's like having the con rods peened (that's what they called it when I was a motor head)... on a stock Ford Pinto, and believing you have a race car.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 10:37:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Does anybody know if its winchester or remington that produce and sell the 4.81mm tungsten carbide 7.62x51 NATO sabot round.
thanxs.
tom <mildot@military.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 11:47:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.151.104.49)

thanks;
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 12:00:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.13.223)

On Honor, James I just wrote off the cash. I thank you for your attempts to regain it for me. Fooled me once, I wont be fooled again. First time anyone from here has done so. On the other hand I have been treated so well by the guys from here that I am way ahead and the community at large is outstanding
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 14:20:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 15:29:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.15.127.107)

thanks
chase <varmintpro@hotmail.com>
boise, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 15:57:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.15.127.107)

Like Patron Mike says, the cut rifling imparts less mechanical stresses, and therefore is a better barrel. On mine, I paid the extra $40 for the SECOND cryo, but as pointed out, it's a cut rifled high dollar barrel. And I wanted "the best" to get my mojo rising. That's what it was good for with me. And it's the only barrel I had cryoed because it's the only cut rifled barrel I have. Wouldn't mess with the others.

Mike: let me know about the other topic, I'll help out. Don't wanna see you taking losses. It's purely selfish though, I gotta keep you doing the instructor thing ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 15:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.195)

Use any money that you might save by not letting
yourself be taken advantage of and buy lots of ammo...
LOTS OF AMMO! Get lots of practise!

Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Too hot to cyro today, Colorado, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 16:02:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.77.133)

Winchenster makes the 7.62NATO APDS round. Sweden bought 1 mill. rounds manufactured with accuracyspec of 1moa or less in their AI AW rifles. TOF to 1000m is only 1.3sec. MV=1350m/s.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/winchester/index.html

TorF
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 16:04:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

We'll split the loss between us. I concur with your assessment of the guys on this site. They are a great bunch, which is what stunned me about the behavior of this one individual. Maybe we'll have a chance to "counsel" him in person out behind a barn someday. Some folks just need an asswhipping to convince them that standards of conduct can and will be enforced.

Guys: thanks for all the personal emails and support on this issue. It is exactly what one expects from honorable men.

Jim Mitchell: We'll disagree on the difference between honoring one's debts and honor. The honoring of a debt is subsumed within the larger definition of honor in my opinion. It is a promise unkept which amounts to breaking your word. A concept that most of us here would agree is fundamental to the concept of honor.

De Oppresso Liber,
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 16:30:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

I don't really know nuthin', and I have a civil engineering degree from Texas A&M to prove it. Anyway, here's my two cents.

The problems with the crystalline structure in barrels is that the thermal coefficients are not identical for martensite and austenite. This means that if you have an uneven distribution of the different forms of iron around the barrel, it may tend to bend in one direction and this bending may be enough to be noticable in POI. There may also be non-uniform harmonics in the barrel, which may cause an increase in group size.

Please note the extensive use of 'may' in the above paragraph.

I have not read the articles, but it would be interesting to know if the groups were all cold bore shots, or if they were rapid fire. Any benefit of cryo treatment will show up more for rapid fire groups.

In essence, there is no economic advantage to automatically treating a $35 (I have also heard $8) barrel. After bedding the action to isolate the barrel from the stock, it may help if the groups are still excessively large for all bullet/load combinations, or if it still shows signs of thermally induced stringing. Alternatively, you can just make a tomato stake and buy a good barrel.

For quality barrels, I would suspect that the main advantage of cryo treatment is psychological, and combined with the difference in cost between the treatment and the barrel, may be worthwhile. There should be no difference in difficulty of cleaning, because the gross defects (>50 microns) will still be present. There may also be a difference in the ease of break-in because of the easier machining of the cryo'ed barrel. Personally, I would reserve the treatment for problem barrels, along with spirit dances, baptism with moonshine, and the laying on of hands.

YMMV, seek a competant attorney or tax counselor before using this advice, and the guarantee on anything here lasts until you reach the door.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 17:35:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

The magazines felt sticky on the inside so I took them apart, cleaned them and siliconed the inside. But this seems an ejection not a feed problem.

Anyone ever had this problem with a rim-fire?

This 22 has exceeded my "fun expectations" and with a red dot on it, the nimble little gun provides such astonishingly fast acquisition, I may use it rather than a shotgun for rabbits. Providing, of course, I can solve the stove pipe malfunctions.
 

Michael Pregent <mpregen1@san.rr.com>
La Jolla, CA, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 17:48:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.30.151.132)

A few things could be going on in your 597. I am not intimately familiar with the exact gun, but have had similar problems in other .22s.

The most prevalent (and I hate to say this) cause of stovepipes in any .22 I have seen is the action spring/bolt getting gunked up. Happens TONS more with cheap ammo than with good ammo. I found myself abandoning the bulk packs in favor of Remington Target stuff (just under four bucks/100 at Wally World). The bulk ammo is both less reliable, less accurate, and dirtier for the most part. This takes some of the economy out of the gun, but not a wholebunch, it still beats the heck out of centerfire prices.

The Remington Target ammo is pretty darn accurate too, getting moa out of both a Ruger 10/22T and a scoped Browning buckmark from good rests.

Dan-O

Dan-O <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
Mo-town, WV, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 19:11:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.242.133)

I have a factory original Remington VSSF with the HS Precision bedding block stock. It is the same rifle that is debated on another part of this site.

My question is: what material can I use to build up a bigger, fuller palm swell on the stock? I've used Devcon A in the past for foam and epoxy stock. So I'm considering using it, black die and chopped fibreglass fibres to make a stiff putty to add the desired mass to the stock. Somewhere else I read about Marine Tex, but don't know how common this material is.

Any thoughts? Reply off line if you prefer.

Terry

Terry Warner <terry.warner@sympatico.ca>
Canada - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 21:03:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.172.92.74)

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 21:36:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.4.34)

I need to know where I can purchase a set of Badger rings and base for my new Rem700P. Also can anyone tell me more about the IOR scopes they offer in S C PX.
Thanks
Tony <tonylongshot@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 22:00:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.193)

I disagree with what you said...

"I know that it would take more testing than this to prove anything but..."

If two, or even just one, were improved, then I'd say it might have merit... but if you can't see any improvement in 4 out of 4... then how many do you have to "Cryo" until you see one improve...6, 10, 20, a hundred, before you see one improve... So you're wrong... 4 out of 4 failures IS ENOUGH testing!
And I'll gladly take the word of a proven 'smith, over someone that "dipped" his PSS, and thinks it's maybe better! ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 08, 2000 at 23:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 01:49:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.142)

I am no metallurgist, machinist, or gunsmith. Maybe I read too much. This cryo-ing the barrel thread is interesting. Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets wrote some excellent articles for Precision Shooting on both moly coating and cryo treatments that showed for first-class quality "Name Brand" barrels (like those out of the known barrel makers with only ONE grade of barrel that leaves the shop), neither treatment seemed to make any difference -- all barrels seemed to hold accuracy until somewhere around 3,500 rounds whether frozen or not, shooting moly or not. He did hypothesize, though, that for an off-the-shelf hammer-forged "El cheapo" (read Remington PSS/VS) or a quality barrel that had a lot of machining done to it (i.e., a blank turned down with steps for an M14 or M16, as compared to a bolt gun barrel with minimal external contouring) the cryo treating might help.

As for moly, we don't have it on GI-issued ammo. In my own personal guns it's all I'll use. Terry, I don't understand how you state moly is corrosive (it's an inert, non-hygroscopic compound). The pioneering moly-coating technique from NECO (used by Norma, Sierra, and Hornady) uses technical moly. Other manufacturers may use a different grade, have it suspended in a different "carrier" (to spray on), or use carnauba wax or a substitute which could attract moisture and start the rust/corrosion process. Deer can't seem to tell the difference.

The "Carbon tunnel" syndrome (carbon permananently burned in/imbedded into the first 1/2 inch of leade and rifling due to poor barrel quality or cleaning procedures), combined with poor maintenance cleaning techniques (not removing copper fouling, and having layered strata of powder fouling, copper, moly, carbon, copper, etc.) will turn a good to fair factory barrel or even a first-class tube into a pig in no time. All that garbage layered on top of an initial layer of copper, combined with any kind of humidity starts your electrolytic process at the initial barrel-copper contact points, causing your barrel pitting.

I agree moly lubricating bullets doesn't extend barrel life due to the heat corrosion of the powder on the impurities of the barrel at the leade. My gut feeling is that since the bullets will ease into the rifling easier and have a slightly "slicker" ballistic coefficient in the external ballistics phase they may fly a hair truer. When the US Air Force started painting C130s and C141s "Air Superiority Grey" from European Camouflage (a smooth paint job versus matte cammy colors), the air jockeys found that some aircraft were performing up to 15% better WITH NO OTHER CHANGES MADE TO THE AIRCRAFT, due to lesser drag. But bumping a 7.62 charge from 43.3 to 43.5 grains of whatever seems insignificant (any of you math gurus want to tackle this?).

None of my guns has a frozen tube, but I'm looking at it for my next M16 barrel (I covet a cut Krieger 1-8).

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, VA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 02:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 04:35:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.116.133)

Patron Dave: you tell 'em! M-16 barrels and M-14 barrels. You mean there's a third type? ;-) And you're right, technical grade moly isn't corrosive. If it was, I'd have seen rust pits on the drums I keep it in. Heavy but not corrosive. That said, I shoot my bullets naked, but more power to anyone who wants to use it. After all, everyone KNOWS that strawberry icecream is better than chocolate!

Patron 'Lito: four MAY have been too few, if all four were bull barrels with no contours. Or all four were of one type of steel. etc, etc.

But since everyone says that cryo is a crock, I'll take it at face value, and just say that this Kreiger shoots because it was cut. In the future, I'll only have my cut barrels cryoed ONCE ;-)
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 05:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.161)

I hear this and that about all sorts of FALs and I not always sure what to belive, but I have come to belive this much for certain: get a gun built on an Imbel reciever using Austrian parts. Century Armps markets such a gun for a hell of a lot less than Entreprize or any of the others that build on US manufactured recievers. Some of those recievers suck and I can never recall which, but I have an Imbel reciever (an entire Imbel gun, actualy, in the form of a Springfield SAR-48) and can tell you that it has been bulletproof. Get a Century Arms gun as above and check the headspace. If its good out of the box, it will last a good long time without reheadspacing. Mine hasent moved .001" in 2,000 rounds. I know that Century used to build crap on Century Mystery Recievers but these appear to be a whole different animal. Give 'em a look. Thats the route I'd take.

Terry Warner and glop to build up stocks:

I asked the same Q here a few months ago and (suprisingly) got zippo for feedback. There is a greenish Plastic Wood-like substance that I have seen used on target pistols that seemed about perfect for this application but I dont know what it is or where to get it. MarineTex is avaialble at most any boating supply house online or otherwise and is an outstanding bedding compound but I dont think it is particularly suitable for this job: too hard to use, not "plastic-y" enough. It'll work but I rather do something else. If there is a wood filler out there (sybnthetic?) that is less prone to shrinkage than your basic Plastic Wood, I would look there first. I imagine you can dye it using either epoxy dye from Brownells or the good ole' model airplane paint trick.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 13:35:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

It's the nut behind the butt who knows what to do with the machine, not the frozen barreled, cut-rifled, McMillan-stocked, Devcon/Marine-tex bedded, Badger/Leupold glassed, Jewell triggered dream rifle shooting coated bullets. It doesn't shoot itself.

Become a good rifleman. Buy what you can afford and shoot to your gear's potential. Then upgrade and become a BETTER rifleman. Lots of guys have rifles that they'll never shoot to its potential. Some guys don't know it yet, but they shoot better than their rifles/glass are capable of.
 

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:06:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

You are Oh so right as usual! But its a lot of fun to tinker and experiment with the gear. Great Field Skills, Trigger time, and lotsa rounds downrange are what makes the real deal - so VERY real.

Are coming up to watch me try the first "Flopping Bass" stalk of the 21st century? Should be a hoot!

Now to G-2 a new watering hole..............

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG BURLAP & SHOE GOO COVERED COVEREDCITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:16:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.54)

Molly is not for me. If a guy likes it and it works for him fine, but why? That is the basic question. What does it do for a sniper?

Stan, Michael,Pwete, Ken, Danny M. and all the others thank you for the nice emails. I want this thing to not be a DR issue. Please keep it that way. We come here for shooting information and friendly chat with friends.

Undude/Delta Bravo/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervetion.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:27:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

The best thing about peacetime competition (vice training) is that's where you put your money where your mouth is for bragging rights (since nobody's shooting at you for ALL the marbles).

So my protege is now madly cutting up burlap and netting to make his wookie suit? Hope you're not doing it in the wife's brand spanking new living room!

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 14:40:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Bruce K Hudgens
TRIDENT PROFESSIONAL DIVERS
satdivr@micron.net

Bruce K Hudgens/TRIDENT PROFESSIONAL DIVERS <satdivr@micron.net>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 16:54:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.14.236.169)

The .300 WBY has a proven track record in the game fields and have won many championships in Long Distance Shooting. Either the plain ol Vanilla or the "Improved" versions are awful good in a correctly set up rifle.
The only problems I see are price of ammo, and recoil over a sustained period of shooting.
 

Dave,

Protege? I'm flattered, but a better visualization might be a By-Gawd hybred of Stan Laurel, and Sherlock Holmes sidekick Dr. Watson. RLMAO!!!!
Now all I have to do is round up Jame Gumb to cut the back vents in the jacket and do a little bit of sewing.
"Would you Stalk me?, I'd Stalk me!" Really-Really-LMOA
 

Mikey,

Check yo e-mail Dude!
 
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Even More of a Mess , By-GaWd, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 19:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.76)

http://www.norma.cc/htm_files/framp1e.htm

Basically, they say there is sometimes an effect, sometimes no effect.

Just cut and paste the URL, or click below
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 20:08:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

It was definitely good to hear from you..

Bruce....
Bruce Hudgens <satdivr@micron.net>
New Orleans, LA, USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 20:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.9.209)

Just how accurate CAN you make one of these, and what would you want to do to it to get the accuracy? Free float handguard, changing the barrel, muzzle break of some kind? Thanks!
 
 

Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 21:42:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

I see the moly issue is back online. I have an opinion and you all know about opinions. To answer a question why Moly? Well for
me I like to run my bore brush 20xs and then 3-4 patches and poof
a spotless bore! Shoot up to 400rds with no shift in POI.What does it
do for a sniper,NOTHING!!!!!!! What does it do for a lazy bastard like
me? Less cleaning time!!! What does something for a sniper is solid center mass hits at 800 meters!!!!!!!
Cryro--- I have never seen improved accuracy. Two of my barrels(Hart)
are treated have to wait and see if they last longer than the previous ones.
If you like to scrub your barrel all day let it soak overnite be my guest. JB paste, cleaning every 5-10 rds and all the rest of that bullshit DO IT IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL WARM AND FUZZY. Moly for me eliminates this.
Now take it easy. "Danger close"
Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Sunday, July 09, 2000 at 22:04:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.86.249.130)

For the uninitiated, Emil is one of the fine soldiers from the National Champion Service Rifle Team of the United States Army Marksmanship Unit, the USAMU. It was NCOs like him when I was a snot-nosed Second Lieutenant who taught me the fine points of reading wind, calling shots, and paraphrasing from that little Yoda guy in the movie "Star Wars," "Don't THINK, DO!"

I believe that anyone who frequents this site will get more than his money's worth shooting NRA style service or match rifle competition, and long-range prone competition as well. Any opportunity to read winds and drop a hammer on a live round is training.

There was a great quote on the opening pages of Precision Shooting a few months back. One of the world's great marathon runners had posted on his mirror (I'm paraphrasing):

"Somewhere out there
Someone is training
to beat you."

If it's just recreational shooting, it doesn't mean much. If you are competing, it means a lot more.

If you are a soldier or cop, it means playing for keeps.

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 01:16:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Just to set you guys at ease there are actually small factions of folks in the military (yes even the Guard) that understand what marksmanship is all about. They understand the importance of competition and its application to combat. Praslick is one of them and guys like him, Boucher and others are the biggest hope we have for passing on the corporate knowledge to further generations of Soldiers, Marines, and even (gag) Sailors and (choke) Airmen.

Okay big Sarge I'm through stroking you. Talked to Gentry and Bacon the other day they're doing fine.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 02:46:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.144)

I appreciate any comments as I know a number of you have solved this problem and your experiences are more important than the technical possibilites. And for the wisecrackers, yes, I measured the diff when I bought the rifle, but it really didn't seem more than a hair out of alignment. I guess I was using a rather large hair for comparison.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 03:50:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.4.38)

From what I have seen, FAL accuracy is typicaly quite good for an iron-sighted batle rifle, something on the order of 1.5-2 MOA. Thats adequate for a lot of missions but as a sniper rifle, the FAL comes up short. As for accurizing solutions, there is realy very little product on the market that will help al;l that much, short of having DS Arms or somebody like that put a heavy "match" barrel on one. Even with that, the FAL has some fundamental design problems that would prevent it from becoming a real tack driver as we here would recognise the term. The mass of that piston flainging back and forth while atteched to the barel combined with the absence of a convienient way to float out the handguards results in some real complications without reinventing the rifle.

Call it a 2 MOA rifle, and be happy.
 

HTH

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 04:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

UnDude: of all the names to be stuck with, the Delta Bravo is by far the most undeserved. Funny, but undeserved. What do I have to paint if I call you by that? ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 06:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.154)

I finally got the computer upgrade completed. What a pain in the neck that was. So, I finally got the cast bullet production well under way. You know, I am saving a ton of money on my ammo. For the same cost of using jacketed bullets in my pistols I can shoot abot six times as much or better. I am using a Lyman 450 sizer, and I just bought or ordered rather the heater to use hard lubes.
I am going to use the Rooster Red Zambini for the lube. I just have a few questions for the bullet casters out there. Do you make your own Linotype from adding tin to wheel weights or is it still available. I have about 50 pounds of the stuff, but I want more.
I have some OLD moulds that are no longer in production anymore too. I hope to use them to see how they compare in accuracy to todays designs. Well gota jet.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 06:34:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.143)

I bought last weekend 400 rounds of British surplus ammo in 7.62 Nato. I would like to know a little bit of the ammo more.

The can says L2A2 7.62 Nato. Labels say 4-88 RG, so I think this ammo was made in Radway Green ammo factory in April 88. Bullet weight is 9.50 gramms, something like 147 grains. Bullet has a slight boattail and is crimped quite heavily to the case. Brass has the Nato cross and the cases are bredan primed, so cases are practically nonrelaodable. Powder weighted 2.82 gramms/round.

I tried to find out what is the supposed muzzle velocity of this ammo and what is the B.C. More or less all sources told that 7.62 Nato has a bullet weighing anything between 9.3 to 9.5 gramms and muzzle velocity out of G3, FAL, GPMG etc varied between 820 and 840 meters per second. That is 2733 - 2800 fps. So I think 840 m/s is about right. The only mentioning of B.C. for any FMJ 147 grain 30 calibre bullet was .404 mentioned in Mike Lau´s books.

Does anyone know which muzzle velocity is this British ammo supposed to have and what is the B.C. for the bullet ?

Best regards,

Hexa
Heikki Juhola <juhola@luukku.com>
Helsinki, Finland - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 09:48:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 212.16.98.50)

There is an inherent difficulty in communicating subtle concepts via text to which I seem to endlessly fall victim. The point I intended to make in my previous post was one of "hierarchy"... I meant to imply keeping one's word to be as a foundation is to a house.

One cannot have honor without honoring debts, but one does not necessarily have honor because the bills are paid.

The business of evaluating team-mates with regard to their motivation under life and death situations is not the same as evaluating one's risks in a business deal. Really honorable folks are extremely rare, often mis-judged, and hard to recognize. Next to family, there is nothing I value more.

My opinion said... I will restate what others have said on this site. The opportunity to learn from men like yourself and Mike Miller is well worth a couple extra bucks.... you should add to the cost of your next class to cover such risks in the future. I'll still come out to learn.
 
 
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:06:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Re: FAL

This discussion has been visited here before in typical DR excruciating has ever been better. The operant term is "battle rifle." Mike and I played with mine at the course last summer and were hitting a 26" gong at 750 yards with iron sights. The weapons used has a match grade barrel. With that said and without starting another round of controversy about what constitutes "sniping", the FAL is not the weapon of choice for a sniper. The debate for the use of gas guns and bolts is also germane to the discussion and we have growled at each other over that before.

The operational doctrine for snipers has changed since my operational days. I would defer to Gooch and to Rick Boucher(who ran sister teams when we both served with the secret projects in SF in VN together) or to Gene. These guys are better able to address this issue under current doctrine.

Bravo: To even consider the H&K 91 makes me question if you haven't been sampling your brew a bit too much. That weapon is so overrated and has at least two fatal flaws. Leave such stuff to our so-called allies in Europe. When they become our enemies as they inevitably will, some will die because of that weapon. The reason I am alive today is because of the location of the safety on the AK47 and the location of the safety on the CAR-16. Ergonomics my man.

"Sometimes a man's life depends upon a mere scrap of information" Ramon and restated by Clint Eastwood in "Fistfull of Dollars."

See you girls tomorrow. Hauling horses from Arizona to New Mexico today. Have to negotiate all the yuppies and fags driving their cool cars, wearing spandex and sandals, with no regard for my truck and horsetrailer. Wish I had a quad .50 mounted:-) Sometimes my scars itch and I think I sure as hell didn't get these scars for the likes of these day tradin, stock dealing counterfeit sonsabitches. Godalmighty what the hell has happened to this nation?

Strength and Honor,

James
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:25:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.10.134.116)

Emil,
I finally have gotten my 6.5x284 ironed out, I traded the one I had for another one with a heavier barrel and a chamber that wasn't quite so tight. The old one shot the Winchester brass fine and would chamber and shoot the Norma but I would get early pressure with it so I was stuck with Winchester brass or recutting the chamber. The new one loves the Norma brass and is starting to really come around. So far it seems to like the 140 AMAX the best at long range. I really appreciateo lir help on the chamber and reamer differences.

Cryo or not??
Like many of you I have had the nagging thought of will it make a difference or not?? My smith, who is also an honest man and a friend, says don't waste your money on a problem you may not have. He said if you have a good barrel and its doing something its "NOT" suppose to then try it. I had a SS fluted 25-06,with and after market barrel, that when it warmed up would "Lift" the group up and to the right about three quarters of and inch to and inch all the time. Now this may have been a stress problem that could have been corrected by cryoing but I shot it out before cryo so we will never no(HA).
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:36:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

This and other information from you I would appreciate. Thanks!!!
 
 

Orion <orion-8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 13:51:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

Nice to hear from you again! The only figure I could find was a B/C of .320 for the 147 gr weight, specifically PMC ball.

Maybe Torsten or TorF has some more data.

Chao!
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY , BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 14:08:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.164)

I've had sporter-weight barrels which would heat up and walk the string clear off the paper if I tried using them for target work. They warped and straighted like bi-metal thermometers. I believe the only (marksmanship) use of this CRYOGENIC treatment is to be able to shoot skinny barrels even when they're hot. Steyr barrels(and probably other high-end skinny barrels) don't seem to mind the heat. I simply resigned myself to using varmint contour and up, if I'm not willing to wait with the action open for 5 minutes between shots.
North <Kettlebelly@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, Missouri, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 14:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.32.107.226)

Miling,
A week or so ago I tought a school on long range shooting and learning to use the mil dot scope to the State Patrols SWAT teams and we discovered and interesting thing that I thought some of you may be interested in. We were miling white IPSC targets out to around 600yds and all the guys were miling them by a tenth larger than they were to the man. I tried miling them and got the same results as they did. I then remembered that I had read in my info that when miling a bright target on a bright day subtract one tenth and when miling on a dark day with a dark target add a tenth. When doing this they were able to come up with the range nearly to the yard on some of them. I was telling Pablito about this and asked him if he had run into it and he said he hadn't but we decided to check with Rick B. so I did and he sort of confirmed it but said it may have been more mirage doing it. I hope to get out again and try it with the same targets and then turn them around to the brown side and see if it makes a difference. I would be interested in any other thoughts some of you may have on it if you have run into this on occasions where it has been bright and sunny on a white target. I am sure Rick or Gooch could explain it a lot better than I can if it is and actual occurrence. I had not run into it before and thought it might be an interesting fact to share with you if you don't already know about it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 16:14:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Put up a white and brown one at the same time. so the marage and other condx will be the same...

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 16:58:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Orion: in order, mine was about $2800 plus receiver (worn out rifle), 7.62 NATO (or 308 on a really bad day), More accurate than 1/3 MOA? No. Mags can be had in 5, 10, 20 rounds or my Dad made up 40+'s decades ago for use on aerial platforms. If you set it up for a scope, yes. Don't purchase one, have it built. SLIGHTLY higher than what I huffed up shooting at Jameses place (oh, but what a view and position!). Mail me offline if you want more info, we'll get you one built.

Mistah Bullet: seems that something along this line happened out at the school, but can't recall the specifics. I have noticed it at home since, but only when the reticle was bronze colored and not black. Patron 'Lito explained the science, and why and how it turned bronze.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 19:01:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.166)

In the Sportsman Guide they have some for sale and the spec's they have say the muzzle velocity is 2252fps. I assume this is a misprint tho. (you know what they say about one who "assumes") I suspect they meant 2552fps or 2652fps. BUT, they listed the energy at 2518ft lbs so one could calculate the velocity from that. I'd had to get the book out tho so I'll leave it up to you. So, maybe this will help.

John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 19:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.80)

John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Hudson, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 19:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.80)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 20:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

The Radway Green arsenal ammo, brand new, is rated at 2760 fps. As a rule of thumb (that I use) for every decade of storage and largely depending on the quality of the ball powder used, the powder charge looses propulsion capacity by about 8-10%; ergo the rating in the 2500's that John from Hudson cited from the Sportsman Guide source.

The Radway Green and the South African made 150gr BT-FMJ 7.62NATO ammunition is the only ammunition I use with my HK's. Never had a misfire, misfeed or a cook-off with either.

The only problem though with the R.G. ammunition though (or any mil surplus for that matter) is that it is quite inconsistent in the sense that muzzle velocities can (and will) vary within a range of 3-6%, even from the same lot.

Expect sub-MOA at 100 meters, 1-1.5MOA at 200 and 1.5-2MOA at 300 meters as far as accuracy in concerned with the R.G. ammunition.

Ares.
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 21:25:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.222.165)

Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
;b>Padisade, Colorado, USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 22:21:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.144)

Anyone have contact address or E-mail,website,any help appreciated.
 

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 22:32:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.175)

I've got a Tasco SS10x42 that was vandalized. Both the occular and objective lenses were cracked and the tube was dented.
Sad Shooter <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Monday, July 10, 2000 at 23:42:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.162.86.225)

Warrantee implies protection to the buyer, from manufacturing defects.

I know that Tasco doesn't have the best reputation in the world, but getting coverage for the damage you discribe, as a manufacturing defect, would bring a totally new definition to the phrase "Silver Tongue Devil!".

However, I would suggest you send it to them, and "fess up" that it got busticated, and ask them to fix it. Most of these companies will replace a catistrophic mess for a fraction of it's street cost.

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 00:32:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Here is a training tip for you'se guys. Instead of ranging on a nice clear piece of white steel, try placing objects that you will commonly find in your AO next to the target you will shoot on, range off of the object and shoot the steel. Objects might be a license plate, a 50 gallon oil drum, a tire etc. Now how do ya like me?

I am happy to announce that I will be moving back to Arkansas soon (those that know me the best refer to me as "tumbleweed"). After Gov Huckabees response to the Attorney General Of New York re: the S&W deal I will refrain from refering to the State as Clintonia. Also since the President and her husband are moving to New York it is another reason to head south.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 03:14:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.153)

You really think "Slick" is moving to NY with that dyke pig, when there's all those pretty young hunnys down south, just waiting to help with the "Library ;)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 11:20:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

This is the first time as a norwegian I've ever been labelled as an probable "enemy" of the USA.

H&K G3 a dagerous battlerifle? That's not my experience. If the drills are done right the G3 is utterly reliable and on average the most accurate battlerifle made in 7.62NATO. 1moa is the norm with a new norwegian AG3. I've owned a brand new M14 by Winchester and 3 different FAL's. I've tested the Galil and the Stoner. If I had to make a choice today it would still be the G3. I know what a new G3 can do straight out of the box. And, like the Steyr SSG, they ALL do it right at once without any need for tuning. Just mount the QD-scope, zero it and go.

The G3 was used for many years in combat by a European nation, Portugal. They fought in Angola and Mozambique at the same time you were having "fun" in Vietnam. The fightingconditions in the field/jungle were almost identical. Do you think they reported any serious reliabilityproblems with their G3 battlerifle? Or with their MG3 for that matter?

M14 and M60 vs. G3 and MG3? Hmmm.... USA - POR: 0-1

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 12:05:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

The rounds I did fire grouped right around 1/2 to 3/4 moa with a few flyers that could have been my fault. They were 3-4 inches out of the group. This was fired off of the bipod with no sand bags at all, I forgot to take them with me that day, So I can't tell if it was me that caused the flyers or the ammo itself All of this was through a PSS by the way. I will be back at the Range this weekend with a rifle rest and I will probably shoot some more of the stuff. As I work out the dope, I'll share that info with you.
Cory Wilson <Ranger9@hotmail.com>
Panama City, Fl., USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 13:54:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.73.137)

Well, you're wrong about what companies will fix, and not fix.
SWFA can't do anything... But consider that Tasco's cost on these from whatever country they're made in (this week), is nada... and you send them a NICE letter, it's in their faver to send you a new one for what they wholesale it to jobbers for... they don't loose a penny, and they have a loyle customer for life.

Consider... I bought a new (discontinued) Bushnell .22 scope for $48 to go on my 8 year old sons rifle, and it was a POS on arrival.
I sent it to Bush, and told them it was a very nice scope, but must be out of alignment, because the everything you looked at, had color fringes around it, so would they please align it for my son, who LOVES IT!
Well of course it wasn't out of alignment, it was a turd that was disco'ed for good reason... but 6 days later, I got back a 4x12-40mm target scope that discounts for about $190, with an appology for not being able to fix the little scope, because the "...didn't have parts any more".

If you really screw up a Remington, or Winchester, and send it back with a nice letter... you will get it "repaired"... (but it will have a new barrel, new action, and new serial number;) Hmmmm.

But you gotta be nice (no matter how hard it is ;)

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 13:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

You can deny it all you want, but we Americans know you Norwegians are laying in wait for just the right moment to launch your attack on the US, and take us over!

We know it's not the Gold in Fort Knox you want, and we know it's not the food or grain fields, or oil reserves, and it sure ain't most of our women...

But we ARE wise to you... it's out Shopping malls you want.

Well I'll make you a deal, we surrender, if you promise to take the shopping malls back to Norway with you, and leave your women solders behind, as occupation forces ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 14:09:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

I just got this email from STG Charles Cox

The American team walked away the big winners. STG Cox brough home 5 gold, 2 sliver, & 5 bronze metels. He was also awared the Queens top 100 & top 50 badges along with most of his team mates.

OUTSTANDING Job STG COX

LeMay OUT
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
Mich, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 14:26:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

I may go to Walmart and purchase a Weatherby VNG (Weatherguard) in 7MM Mag. It will cost $388 and some change. Are all Weatherby rifles good quality or do they have 'cheaper made' models that Walmart sells? I've seen Weatherby rifles at Bass Pro Shop for twice the ammount or more.

If I DO get this, what scope will be enough to handle the 7MM Mag power?

Opinions are appreciated!!! Thanks!
 

Orion <orion_8472@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:25:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.246.200.2)

SURE YOU CAN TRUST THE GOVERNMENT! JUST ASK AN INDIAN.......
LeMay <lemayj@mdot.state.mi.us>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:37:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.24.102.133)

The FAL balances well and has sites to 600 meters but no windage adjustment. It shoots very well and balances better. It is sealed to the outside crap well. It has an easily adjustable gas system so it will keep working no matter how many rounds you put through it. This is my favorite 308 battle rifle. It has a bolt hold open and controls are easy to use.

The M14 has the best sites. It shoots very well(better than any G3 I have seen) It is the lightest. The stock and open action design suck for field use, but the thing will function all day every day. Controls are easy to use. Best trigger of any Battle rifle. I have several and love them but the FAL gets the nood for serious work. Bravo, you are well armed with a M14.

On Radway Green ammo. This stuff shoots very well and works in both my FAL's abd M14's without a hitch.

On the Patriot Thing: I fear the worst is coming where men will be rare and guys that should stay on the pourch with the women ( To quote a wise woman I know) run this place into the ground. If we do not all stand up and be counted now. Not tomorrow but now! I have been taught and tried to live by the words "We all survive this together or we all go down together" (Team Creed). This has cost me a few wounds here and there but I can look myself in that mirror and not look away with disgust. I find fewer and fewer men that live by that creed. Thank God almost all of you on here do.

I was sickened the other day when I read the Calif. Penal code and saw where if I taught Calif citizens at the range how to shoot, with out qualifications to call it a school by education code standards, it could be called an unlawful assembly for the purposes of a paramilitary group and a crime could be committed. Now I can teach all the cops in the world but if I teach Calif Citizens I have to have a school by education code requirements, or all of use can go to jail as an Illegal Paramilitary group. THIS Only applies to classes taught in Calif. What a bunch of crap! Well James and I will be running many classes out of Calif in the future. Maybe we should give a discount to Calif residents for having to put up with the liberal stress factor. Man I can not wait to move when I retire.

Bill R= Patriot!

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 15:55:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.28)

UnDude-ski

Would you please e-mail me the Penal code about the "Crime" of teaching shooting...

Thanks.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:11:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

After carefully looking at the scope, I realized that it took a lot of damage before it died, with the lethal injuries being caused by direct impacts to the objective and occular lenses. The body was dented in some places and the elevation turret was knocked loose to the point where it rotated freely. After tightening the three screws on the elev turret, it seemed to be working fine.

The internal lenses appreared to be intact, even with hammer impact marks on the outside of the tube over them. I'm convinced that had the lenses not been struck directly, the scope would have survived.

The only field conditions that I can think of that would be close to the type of abuse that scope took would be falling off a cliff or getting hit by a car. Maybe getting hit by mortar fragments. This scope is rugged, indeed, and I will be ordering a new one shortly.

In the review section, it is mentioned that unless someone were to test this scope to destruction you wouldn't know how much damage it could take and still function. I think I can safely say that if you have a SS10x42 and it gets destroyed while you are using it, you probably have more to worry about (like calling in a medevac for yourself) than your scope.
Pete Robertson (Sad Shooter) <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:28:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.162.86.225)

As used in this subsection paramilitary organization means an organization which is not an agency of the United Staes Government or the State of Calif., or which is not a school meeting the requirements set forth in section 12154 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerilla warfare or sabotage, or which as an organization engages in rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with school activities.
(b)(1) Any person who teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such objects or techiques will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of a civil disorder, or any person who assembles with one or more other persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm explosive, or destructive device, or techique capable of causing injury or death to persons, with the intent to cause or further civil disorder, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or a fine of not more than 1000.00

Nothing in this subsection shall make unlawful any act of any peace officer or member of the military forces of this state or of the United States, performed in the lawful course of his official duties."
 

You can see this is a can of worms and somethinga teacher of civilians in Calif should be aware of. Seems like the teacher would have to prove he did not know the bad guy/student was going to do something wrong. I think I will just teach non LE out of state.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:43:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Jeff Bracken <RealManJeff@aol.com>
Reno, Nv, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 19:49:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.182)

I gave up trying to contact Mike Lau. I called, e-mailed etc. to no avail. I'm waiting for a TBA M40A1 as well. Mike said the lead time was 9-12 months but after reviewing some of the posts - it seems more like 1 1/2 - 2 years. The rifle quality speaks for itself but damn if I wouldn't mind at least a quarterly status update. Mike, if you're listening, how about posting production info on your website?
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:44:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

You, your guns, and your students are always welcome in Texas. Most people, even the liberals, still believe in the Constitution here. Hopefully we will even have some pull in the White House next year.

Jeff,
Mike Lau never checks his email. I have never had a problem contacting him over the phone. You may want to try calling again. He has been getting a lot of criticism as of late for a lack of customer service. Too bad, he used to be pretty good about it.

On the battle rifle issue,
Does anybody consider the AR-10 a worthwhile battle rifle? I know that the issue of it as a sniper rifle has been beaten to death but they are reliable aren't they? They are more user friendly and lighter than the G3, FAL or M14. The AR15 is as reliable as it gets.

Back into the fox hole for now, I sense incoming.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 20:58:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.5.194)

I haven't posted to the Roster in a long while. But, I have a question that you probably can answer.

Anyway, Ft. Benning will change the format of their match next month. Actually, it changed this month but moi couldn't go... whimper.

It will be four runs of 5 rounds each at 5 targets at unknown distance from 50 to 360 yds. The "hit" factor will be a score that's calculated by points divided by time... shooting against an electronic timer.

I've thought about how to prep for and practice for this. Well, some of my wanker ideas may not work for horse poop so my question is this: Is there a way to set up the scope to allow a faster target aquisition via Kentucky elevationage by leaving a "zero" range on the scope and holding or would it better to just go slow and make elevation/paralax adjustments to insure accurate hits ( and, hence take more time ). Or, am I making this into something weird and complicated, and probably need another couple of sessions of electroconvulsive therapy to pump KISS back into my thinking.

I just finished my very first full "season" of shooting in the tactical matches so now my preverbial feet are wet. This new format presents more complexity than I'm accustomed to but rerally looks like good training to me.

Any response would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@BellSouth.COM>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 21:36:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

From what I have experienced and heard so far, the AR-10s as made nowadays are still come up a bit short as bet-'yer-ass battle rifles. They are just not *quite* reliable enough for me to take them over a known-good military rifle like a M14, FAR or G3. They break a few more parts (seen one spit out a bolt stop the other week), the magazine arrangement is a bit jury-rigged and they can be a bit senesitive to different flavors of ammunition. They are somethimng like Bushmaster AR-15s were before they got the M4 contract and aquired the technology to make a true MILSPEC rifle. All Armalite would need to do is a little debugging, but the kind of debugging that only the military is realy in a position to do correctly. Now, if the USMC would invest in them as Designated Marksmans Rifles, that would be very cool. By the time they got through that process and tweaked up a little, they would be phenominal rifles. For now I would go with the M14, FAL and G3 in about that order. The FAL has some very nice features (better ergos, for one) and the G3 is a bit more reliable than either of the above under adverse conditions, but I can hit things with my M14 at least as well as with the FAL, its got better sights and its lighter, not to mention the fact that I got enough tools and parts to keep one running for about 500 years...

Mike/Undude and the anti-militia training law:

I know you dont want to be the test-case but I have a suspicion that the AG of CA is not too eager to see if this turkey will pass constitutional muster before the US Supreme Court. I seem to recall something in the 1st Amendment about our having an explicit freedom of association. The State of Californication will have a tough time selling it to the SC unless they try only the most obvious and blatant insurrectionist nutcases.

-Tom
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 22:11:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

G3's: I recall reading that for WW1 "the Germans had the best hunting rifles, the English the best battle rifles, and the Americans the best target rifles". Doesn't make sense to me since Springfields are Mausers, but whatever. I think it still applies to this discussion. My 91 (Springfield) was great until the barrel heated up, then the groups got loose. Great hunter, as you won't be heating the barrel up. My M1A had about the same groups after 100 moderately fast rounds as it did cold, best sights and best trigger. Great target rifle. The FAL is probably the best battle rifle extant, but only beats the M1A by microns if that. Now, if they were to make a FAL a little lighter, with M-14 sights and a nice trigger...... And FYI, the guy I was talking about with the "Crest test" also had a lovely match grade FAL, even got someone to smuggle an origional C1 sniper scope out of Canada when it was supposed to be destroyed by the Canadian government (like that Kevin?). You already know which one I saw on the range mostly ;-)

Pat: we're talking single rifles here, so anything goes. I don't think a general rule would hold until you put 500 rack grade G3's against 500 rack grade FAL's against 500 rack grade M-14's. I know my M-25 will outdo my buddies "super-ultra-mega" match grade FAL, but again, we're talking individual rifles.

And comparing the M-60 to the M-14 is entirely unfair. The M-14 worked, all the time every time, day in and day out. That's why my dear old Dad made those long mags. Seems one of his '60's would jam lots, but the 14 never would! When the '60 jammed, he would grab the 14 off the bulkhead and stay in the fight.

Mike: what you said on the battle rifles is 110% right on. Now get the heck outta there! There's no compulsion to obey illegal laws, but who wants to go through the headache of the law suits when jurists are disallowed the knowlege of jury nullification? Maybe one of our lawyers out there could tell me, but from what I've caught, if you talk about jury nullification, you're in contempt or you get an instant mistrial. At the least, that jury member is dismissed and replaced. Remember me saying something about dictators acting through laws? Who voted for that law?!?

Hey Patron 'Lito, how about a translation for our new friend from Mexico? Mi espanol is not mui bien.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic continuing it's decline, formerly the proud country, USA - Tuesday, July 11, 2000 at 23:35:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.148)

In the old "H-series" TO&E there were 4 two-man sniper teams in the Combat Support Company Recon Platoon (one pair of soldiers per jeep, later Humvee). I guess they're now in the HHC.

The guys at the Directorate of Combat Developments at the Infantry School at Fort Benning would be the guys drafting the new MTOEs.

As for the G3, I always thought it had an unusual "one-two" recoil. Squeeze the trigger and the gun pushed back the first time as the rifle recoiled rearward and the rollers unlcoked, then the second "bump" happens when the bolt hits the rear of its travel. Not a nice recoil push like the FAL or M14.

As for HK reliability, I have seen MP5s shoot ammo with corrosion on the cases that I thought would never feed, let alone fire. HK fluted chambers allow for some amazing reliability that has to be seen to be believed.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 00:43:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Bill R (a Patriot's Patriot) was dead on regarding the possible use of NATO troops as UN errand boys to disarm Americans. I am not a conspiracy buff, but I do not trust this fucking government as far as I can spit, nor do I trust most Americans to stand to the line to defend freedom in a meaningful manner.

I have an adopted son that is a US Army major that just left assignment as the liason to Buckingham Palace. I am proud of that boy, and I take pride in rendering military courtesy to him as I was only a Staff Sergeant. But, he understands that if he ever shows up on US soil wearing UN blue, I or one of my special ops teammates will shoot him graveyard dead. I would have spent my life in prison before I ever took an order or served under anyone not an American. But, I also refused to salute women unless they were nurses and held officers not in the combat arms in contempt. So, that should provide enough fuel for disruption:-)

Strength and Honor,

james
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 01:11:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

Was kinda pondering looking into taking the dive and trading/buying one. Any suggestions on who, what, where?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:06:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.56.65)

Rich S- get Mike Miller's sling. After spending a week long class on sling shooting nothing else came close for me. Others in the class were jealous and wanted it. BTW- the instructor in that course (Chuck Julian)is a big time sling proponent. He said to stay away from the leather 1917's as they need expertise to work well (and to assemble correctly also!!)

Gore gave a spech in my area yesterday. I wanted to go down with a big sign saying COPS WANT BUSH!! but my buddy wouldn't go along. Can't figure out why.......
Mictac <mictac@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:08:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.188)

ouch.. You are pouring gasoline into a fire. UN troops will never show up. No President would ever allow that. Third world troops would be too busy browsing the malls and Russian troops would be drunk all day. But Norwegians..well, they are another story. I trust them as much as I trust the French.
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:17:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.14.46)

MP-5; When we were doing all that testing around about reaction times and weapons that worked etc. We had a test shoot. The scenerio was a 3 parter where there were multiple targets, hostage targets and a distance involved to cover with time multipliers. The best 2 shots counted and the others were ignored. Machine gunners participated, bolt rifle's, shotguns,
(shotguns did very well) handgunners, and semi-autos. The last shot was a over a barrel(oil drum) to a standard sillouete police target at 120 yards after a 20 yard quick crawl..and the clock stopped when you hit a 6" disk at 50'. (Many shooters could not hit that disk after the run and couldn't stop their time). My mini-14 won because of a couple of things. It was reliable and had quick sighting aim point sights and large clips. 2nd place was a gunner with a MP-5 9mm. I had him on time only and those 2 120 yard shots. He said it was the rifle ammo and goaded me into running the course with my 1911 Custom Colt. . My time with the colt and the target points was exactly the same as his so we decided to shoot it off at 50 meters. There was 1 target.. a 3 second pop up target and remember that only the two best counted. When the MP-5 Jammed he had fired over 20 shots. I fired one from the .45 to dead center mass. There were no holes in his target. Mine had also 1 9mm hole.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 02:35:40 (ZULU) (your host address:

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 03:16:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.157)

In By-Gawd we call that time to "Get The Hell Out". I bet its definately applicable to both the highway drivers, and Hollywood crews filming those V-I-O-L--E-N-T movies huh?
 

Folks, don't keep banging your heads on the wall.

Get a T.I.S. QUICK CUFF sling for the rifle, and a Mil-Dot Master, Slope Doper, and TRGT data book to keep the bits and pieces in.

I say this based on my past experiences, failing to obtain them BEFORE I needed them, and now having them.

Jeff A,
Welcome back - Baaaaaaaaaaaah!
 

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 03:20:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.57)

I apologise for whatever happened here. What it is I have no idea, as the files uploaded fine last night - or I thought they did. And last night I went braindead again and didn't check them as usual!!

I do not have the data here at work (I just accidentally checked the Roster this morning), but I will fix this tonight to the best of my abilities. It seems the Reverse Order Roster has got all the new posts, so I will work off that to rebuild the normal Roster, and make sure what should be on display is.

Apologies once again.

Marius

PS Ken, I need to get all the detail about accessing the webmaster mail in one place again, as I can't do so here at work for some or other reason. Seems like I'm missing something small. My personal address, included here, I do monitor.
Marius <mferreira@intekom.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 07:13:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Its been some time since I posted... too much personal stuff going on... I do want to take some time to mention a several sniper related website updates if I may.

First I wanted to let you all know that I have just enhanced Mike 'The Undude' Miller's Tactical Intervention Specialists website with a brand new internal site search capability.(http://www.tacticalintervention.com/) This new site enhancement allows you to simply enter the keyword you are looking for - you will be given a list of all the pages on his site where that word appears.

For those of you who have wanted to order Mike's slings using a credit card, there is also now a direct link up from the Tactical Intervention Site to TRGT LLP. TRGT is now taking orders for Mikes Slings and you CAN pay via CC there.

I have also updated Jerry Rice's Nor Cal Precision website. Jerry has added some new stock options and other goodies from Accuracy International to his inventory and he has also added a few new precision rifle links to his offsite links page. Stop by http://www.best.com/~tactical/tenants/norcalprecision/ and check it out.

Jerry has been receiving some very glowing words here on Sniper Country as of late and the Review of the Norcal Nighthawk Rifle that Mike Miller did some time back speaks very highly of Mr. Rice's work.

Finally I wanted to let you know that MemorablePlaces.com as part of the M1 Garand Resource has a great little Gun Control Humor Section that you might find enjoyable. You're invited to drop in there too!

Take care!
Charles aka JT <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 08:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)

Glad to hear that you're enjoying the chile (note the correct spelling...you've been away from NM too long). Let me know when you need more.

Try buying that stuff in NY and NJ. When we were there, we had our friends ship it to us regularly. I won't leave NM again.

Now if we can just get Mike to leave Kalifornia. Just heard on the news that the LA school system is contemplating the banning of the wooden drill team rifles used in JROTC, under their "zero tolerance" policy. Heaven forbid that a student who is contemplating devoting his life to the defense of his country should be exposed to such tools of the devil.

Sure wish common sense wasn't so uncommon.

Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.104.163)

Mike must be making a customer service effort because I just called and he answered. He was cordial and professional as usual and promised my rifle end of August. I was so shocked I actually called back and said "uh Mike, you did mean this year right?". We both laughed and talked about his production status. Mike mentioned he is going to try and clear up the backlog over the next few months and then make some business decisions about production. He still does all the work himself and has about forty rifles in queue.
Breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:43:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.3.204.222)

2) What do you shooters use for rests / bags in the field? Other than the rucksack or buttpack, do you carry any kind of bags filled with sand or some other suitable media, especially for a rear bag?

Direct e-mail responses would be preferred because I don't get to check the Duty Roster very often. Thanks in advance.
B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
Dallas, Texas, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:49:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.97.67.7)

Hold your ground, Dude-ski...

"Chile".. a country in South America (near Peru, who never solved their political problems), that doesn't eat "Chili", a food popular in Mexico, and along the Tex-Mex border, and often eaten by gun toten' bums from Texas (me and thee)... and often diluted, pissed on, and watered down to nothin' more than wet beans by yuppies...

Bruce... Diga mé.... could a "Pablito" be wrong on this one??

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:50:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Logical perspective:
How can removing wooden rifles help with anything? You can't learn to shoot a wooden rifle. The only thing you learn is how to hold a piece of wood and walk around together in a unified manner. By that logic they should ban marching bands.

This may be preaching to the choir, not to mention premature, but don't forget to remind everybody to vote in November. It seems as though voting is the only thing in the Constitution that we are allowed to do anymore.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 18:55:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.4.47)

Once again my apologies for the hickup. As I am typing this both the normal Roster and the Reverse Order Roster are loading to confirm that they are as they should be - shame on me for not doing that last night. Why I did not I have got no idea, as I normally do. Hopefully we didn't lose too many, if any posts.

And now boys and girls, back to your normal program :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, Gauteng, RSA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 19:53:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.196.43)

"It seems as though voting is the only thing in the Constitution that we are allowed to do anymore."

If you are a Republican, you have to "Go and vote", but up in this part of the country, if you are a dem.. demo.. democr... Aw, you know the one... they send a bus for you, and take you to the polls, and if you don't know which levers to pull (cuz you've been in the country 3 weeks), they'll pull the levers for you... No Skit!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 20:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

D. Hurley
D. Hurley <DenHurley@aol.com>
Tyler, Tx., USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 20:35:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 172.140.182.39)

TE gauges are common armorers tools within military organizations and are avaialable on the comercial market for the M1, M14, M16 and (less commonly) the M1 carbine and M1903 Springfield. No doubt there have been others for other US military rifles but they are much less common. However, they are much, much less common (as in, about nonexistant) for commercial rifles, tactical or otherwise. Never seen one for a Remington 700, for instance and I'm not even sure if the factory would own one in this case. With tactical rifles the common approach is to keep count of the number of rounds run thrugh the rifle and watch to see when groups start opening up. The point at which this occurs is usualy pretty predictable with a given grade of barrel when chambered for a given cartrige.

Such a gauge could be developed and made easily enough. All you'd need is a section of drill rod and a cylindrical grinder to grind the taper. Anybody out there got a cylindrical grinder they can play with? :)

-Tom
Still working on gettin' a lathe...
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 22:44:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Pablito, the fabric for the "Cammy jammies" is also on the way.
 

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 22:58:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

It's "chile" in NM, not "chili". We produce it, we get to name it.

Back me up on this, Sarge. You're closer to Hatch than I am.

Similarities between the Texas Flag and the Chilean flag has messed with the residents of Baja Oklahoma for years.

Chile Verde is on me if you get out this way!
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 23:09:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.104.23)

Dave L., I agree the G3 has a weird recoil and the MP5 is indestructable, but heavy as hell for a pistol. Have you tried the HK53K? Just get them with the muzzle flash and sound bomb it makes. MP5 is a thing (mark my words) that will all but extinct in the next ten years. Pistol calibers suck in a gunfight. The 223, with proper bullets, will zip through body armor and stop in the bad guy. That my man, is a big advantage. Massive amount of energy of little amount into the same area. The 223 is the new era of calibers for entry work and CQB. Gone are the days of the SAS/HRT/Delta/SEALS going in with sexy little nines.

Slings, I have gone from making them one at a time to having another guy make them for me, while I get that dammed machine fixed again, sorry for any delay. Sixty should be ready this week and that is far more than need to be shipped. My slings is not legal for NRA Service rifle catagory, no cuff sling is. They work too well.. You can use it in Match Rifle or as intended THE FIELD!

Undude/Mike/ New Mexico Bound in the future
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 23:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.53)

Ben <obie_ben@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, July 12, 2000 at 23:37:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.114.8.172)

'Lito and Bruce: you're BOTH right! In the Texas border towns it was chili, in the Demming / Hatch area it's chile. If it's Jimi Hendrix, then it's voo-doo chile ;-) Doesn't matter as long as it's from Hatch!

So anyone think I'd be stupid for taking a stock mini-14 (not my good one) to a CQB class instead of a CAR?

And what is proper technique for painting a flash hider? Does it matter if the paint gets into the cuts? How do you keep it from getting INTO the bore area of the flash hider? Lastly, anyone have any experience with GI spray paint on aluminum? Do it woik, and does it clean off with something like brake fluid pretty well?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic under fire, formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:01:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.132)

You guys may produce it... but it was invented by the pre-Columbian Aztecs... the Nahuatl peoples... and they called it "Chilli", and since they named it, maybe a thousand years ago, they're copywrite stands before counterfeits from that "NEW" Mexico place!! Harumph! ;)

'lito
 
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

It doesn't matter if the paint gets in the slots, it leaves real fast ;))

Bruce... I'd love to share Chili Verdi with you at Storm this Sept... You bring the Chili Verdi, and I'll bring the brew (Beaver Brew??).

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:09:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Of course pistol calibers suck in a gunfight. But if you're in a crowded bus or choo-choo, 5.56 and muzzle blast can screw you up as bad as the audience (both receiving and those just along for the ride).

The State Department's Diplomatic Security Service has 5.56 HKs. Why, I don't know. Maybe it's the "Cool" factor. I certainly don't think it's a better weapon (nor apparently does the Bundeswehr, since they bought the G36).

Bravo, Mini-14 over a CAR-15? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah! Stop, you're gonna make me wet myself!

I'm sure somebody will trade you for a CAR if you throw in a few bills.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:35:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Stan oh Stan, my misguided friend. Please I will loan youi a CAR if you dont have one for the class. Friends dont let friends defend themselves with Rutgot I mean Rugers. Play toy yes but serious defend your life weapon not me. Just because it looks similar to your M14 does not make it a copy. Gas system is not so good, bbl is a tent spike. Workmanship is not as good as the bbl and gas system.

MIke
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 00:45:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.158)

Not to try to change your minds or anything, but my "good" mini doesn't ever jam unless I don't mind where my left hand fingers go (it's an origional 180 series, the one without the op rod guard). Mike, you're absolutely right though, the gas system is different, and the stock barrel is good as a tent stake. At best. But it's good enough for "Bob the Nailer" ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana and chile republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 01:38:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.143)

AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 01:47:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.76.148.51)

I two new Jerry rifles coming soon; another .308 and a .300 Win mag with all the fixins (tactical vent/flash hider). If you ever get away from your M1-A (which you shoot very well) get a bolt gun from Jerry.

It will be a good time to take another class with you at ASA. I am looking forward to it! I am pretty certain that Mike & I will be flying next time though! 1,100 miles stopping just long enough for gas, coffee and a pit stop is kinda tough.

Please keep brewing!

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, Ca, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 02:38:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

out here
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 03:08:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.173)

Youse guys just have to try some Chilli with C-H-I-P-O-T-L-E-S. My nine year old sez "It Rules"(Thats a smoked Jalapeno peppers that us real Chiliheads love and adore, anybody done or can source for me Mesquite smoked Habaneros?)

Next best thing to South African Blue Wildebeest Biltong.

Bravo,
Ruuuuu, Ruuuug, Ruuugeeee.................???????
 
 

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 03:11:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.47)

Michael: ditto that. My mini was a "good" one before the change. It was between a 3 and 4 MOA carbine off the bench. Sub MOA is possible with a barrel change, and if I had wanted to pay for it, sub 1/4 MOA was possible (surprising what can be done with an Obermeyer barrel!). Not on mine. I've already decided that if/when I ever get a bolt gun, Jerry will be doing the build. And as I've said before, I'm working HARD on NOT buying a 260. Good news, the brew notes dried out better than initially thought, didn't lose as much as expected. If you're going to be at the next class, save your (non-twist top) empties. I'll swap 'em for fulls. If you need a home for those poor unused mini mags, I'll forward you my address ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Still drinking home brew in the, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 04:09:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.174)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 04:20:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Godalmighty. To even seriously consider a mini over a CAR is further evidence that your home brew is highly effective. In 16 years of teaching citizens, I have NEVER had a CQB or carbine class where the mini's made it through the entire course without going down on the line. The CARs have also gone down but most have made it. They are poorly balanced, very slow on mag changes, difficult sight acquisition, most folks have to surrender the firing grip to unlock the bolt, and most shoot poorly beyond 100 meters. Besides, given that Ruger was the first one to roll over on the mag cap ban so they could keep their gov't contracts, why support them? A whore is a whore no matter how she dresses.

Torsten called me from Germany this AM and we had a great chat. We may still disagree on some things, but we enjoyed each other's company. It is the conduct of grown men. We do however, agree about the fucking French.

Strength and Honor
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 04:37:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

Brought a friend down to Raton last weekend. He has a 7mm stw with a sneider(sp) barrel that he has never really shot. We came up with a load for it with the sierra .284 168s and 870 going 3200 Well i made him get rid of the silly target dot scope(education in progress) and he put a super sniper on it. So we get up early the first day to beat the wind and i ask him where he wants to shoot and he says the 1000 ,and im like right. remember this is with a gun that he has zeroed at 100 and thats it. hes forgotten his ballistic chart so he runs back and gets it. A brief discussion "moas are inchs right...?" We get set on the 1000 and he clicks in his data from the chart ZERO wind shoots 7 at the target.Those 80 grs of 870 really warm that heavy barrell up Im snickering in my mind. So we drive downrange.

Im shitting you not 6" group directly in the center of the bull.
Im thinking at this point that I must be a pretty shitty shot or else im going to a overbore magnum. Hes going "whats all the fuss this is easy, i didnt even think i could hit the paper, i wasnt even trying"

The humbling came real quick. Classic beginers luck. He could not get even a 18" group in the next two days try as he might. Of course he was trying now.

It was my first experience with a wildcat like that. after two days im thinking just a little two much powder for me. it sure will punch em through though. Who was working on that 6.5/284? THAT would be about perfect case capacity/diameter. Could you get 2900 with the sierra 155s I wonder with maybe H1000... Maybe someday, in the meantime has anyone used the berger 185s with varget in 308...

Ben
Carryerofthesacredrock/plate <shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 07:50:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NEW MEXICO, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 12:40:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.234)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 12:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

6.5x284
Damn good long range round. Don't use the 155s they suck and the 142s fly better anyway. All the 1000yd boys are using the 142s or a variant of it. I am pushing mine 3000fps and have a load with RL-22 that will do 3100+ but I like to stay at around 3000 with mine using H-4831SC and the 140 AMAX. It has exactly half the wind drift at 1000yds as my 308 and puts me on a paper plate at 1000yds with around 26 MOAs of elevation and the 142s are better than that but my gun likes the 140 AMAX better, hope this helps.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 13:28:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

I stand corrected about at least one thing. The preban ARs tend to work better than the postbans, Elites, etc. Also, I carry a CAR because I instruct and it is just easier to pack around while I am waving my arms and spreading incomperable pearls of wisdom to the unwashed:-). but, why carry a CAR when an AR has better balance, and is more accurate? I also agree on the pistol grip thing at least on a shotgun. I prefer the lines of a rifle except on a CQB carbine. Now I know I am inconsistent about the carbine and the SG as they are both CQB weapons. Can't explain it. The pistol grip is a problem especially on 360 degree rolls unless the mover changes hand position. I have seen a wrist and thumb or two injured by hanging onto the pistol grip. The stainless steel is a drawback to me due to its reflective qualities. I have a preban CAR with no forward assist. I kid you not, as an experiment, I NEVER cleaned the weapon. I fired nearly 20K rounds through it. It got sticky but I could shake it and it would work. AND, it is consistently tactically accurate to 400 yards on a mansize target. But it just doesn't look right in a saddle scabbard so I carry a lever action then which is closer to the mini in lines.

I won't even tell you how pathetic were the LE types I have trained that were issued minis. Put a bully or a crybaby together with a mini and it is just a goddamn mess:-)

Strength and Honor,
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 14:02:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

Why waste the time with 185's?

Go directly to Varget and the 175 Sierra Match Kings. You can get 2600 fps, No pressure problems, and they shoot very well.
 
 

Sarge,

New Mexico is a state, but ONLY because its the largest grower of Chile peppers in the USA. ;-)
You got me on the Jalapenos, I just have not been able to find any true smoked Chile peppers this close to the dreaded Mason-Dixon line.
The local Quiche eating - Volvo driving - Spandex clad - Sport Bottle sipping - Friggin Yuppies tend to think McCormicks Black pepper is too hot for most food. *:-0
 

later gaters (and ChileHeads)
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
big city, by-gawd, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 14:07:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.43)

On the 223 cal as a CQB entry weapon. Doesn't that have a little too much velocity should one miss. The round would probably penetrate 10 apartments. Even the 9mm is a little hot with the paper thin walls they put up in buildings today. Something in a 45 ACP SMG should do the trick and the missed rounds will probably only go through 2 apartments. What are the good 45 sub guns ???
Tony Y <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.100)

Just go with the Colt SMG's. Car style frame usually done on a 12" commando style upper. These were done in 9mm, 10mm/.40 and I heard a .45 in the works.

For the HK lovers,HK does have variations on the MP5 series in different calibers. There is the MP10, in 10mm which is fairly recent, but even back in '91 we recieved some HK literature at 3rd Recon Bn. that had the MP series in 9mm to 5.56mm

But, as I mentioned before, the gun has to match the mission.

Doiong a direct action raid on a G.O.Plat or a ship. you don't want to use a high velocity round like 5.56, they would be bouncing around all those metal surfaces. Same with what Tony said, 5.56 will zip through structure walls like there is no tomorrow,

Hence the need to have SMG's in low velocity calibers for those times that a caliber like 5.56 would be dangerous to not only team members but non-combatants that mak be in the area.

Personally I think that we should bring back the old M-3 Grease Gun!

Silens, Celer, Mortalis!
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:26:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.167)

The over-penetration problems of the .223 are well taken. that is why arming the average cop with a carbine is a disaster. Subsonuic 9mm is a good weapon for SWAT types that presumeably are better shooters. I carried a .223 during my LE days, but I was always mindful of the problem and preferred a handgun for entries and VCQB conditions.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 15:27:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

As far as noise goes, I think all cqb guns should have cans on them. I haven't shot a CAR indoors but I have shot a 22 LR and that was more than enough to make me want hearing protection. Do any of you use hearing protection when doing an actual entry(not training)?
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 17:10:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

All the live stuff my unit did was without hearing protection, but we were using supressed weapons for all our CQB operations.
For training we used simulated non-functional supressors to keep the balance of the weapons proper and we always used hearing protection for training

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 17:28:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.85)

Sarge: superdittos. Once called a computer place to phone order some software. When I gave the shipping address as "New Mexico" she asked if I was paying in US dollars. REALLY! Sure miss the Hatch chile festival.

Ben: good to hear from you amigo! Where can I get some beginners luck?

All right there Bill, James, Mike, and everyone else, seems we have an honest disagreement. Let's work it out the best possible way! While my stock is back at McMillan, I've got some time on my hands. And James, the difference in terain between your place and mine isn't even noticable. Except my shooting range is dryer, more blowing sand (more wind), and there's nothing over 6" tall out there (FLAT!). Not perfect, but, ah, the troubles of having a personal 1000+ yard range ;-) I've got 1000 LC cases, just have to take the primer crimp out, and 1000 Winchester 55 grainers. You guys determine how you wanna do a "torture test" and I'll do it. Recording all results. I want loading specs for the 55 FMJ's (powder, velocity), how you want 'em shot, etc. Anything realistic goes. If 1000 rounds isn't enough, tell me how many more you want. It's not like I'm disagreeing with anyone, or think my rifle is so great. I'm of the opinion though that if it's going to go broing when it should go bang, I'd like to know about it BEFORE hand. Besides, Ruger will fix it free. For me, I'm considering it a learning experience, and I'll ether sell the mini, or love it. As for right now, I don't guess I feel that I know enough to make a statement that would be worth reading. I will say this though, I won't clean it until the "test" is completed. Educate me!

Of course I understand that all this will prove is about THIS rifle.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
where the "scientific method" still is in use, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 17:54:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32604-2000Jul12.html
Trevor <knowledge60@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 18:56:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.172.142.102)

James, on arming the average cop with any 223 caliber weapon. I agree with you. You need more training than the departments are going to give. We have just the Tactical guys, FTO's that request and Sgts trained in the AR. We only get to train them 10 hours a year. The weapons ride in the backs of Sgt.s cars, in locked vaults. We have ACOG 4X scopes on them. They end up being perimeter weapons for the SWAT guys. Standard round is a soft point. Zero is set at 100 yards, with the guys taugh holdover/under at all ranges from 15-200 yards. We have HB CAR's with 16" bbls. Not an entry weapon. We use 14" M16/M4's for entry with the same ammo.

On sound/blast in an entry situation. I never heard a round go off when the poop hit the fan. I prefer to have a can on the thing as it helps stop the hearing and night vision loss that follows any indoor shot. If I use anything other than a can I like the Vortex or standard A2 Flash Hider.

Bravo, final word on the Mini 14, do you think anyoine could hit a gong at 850 yards with it? I would not even try. I played with Mini's in the late 70's and early 80's, could not hit a barn past 300 yards, scoped no scope. They group like a fine shotgun. The ones I have shot, did shoot just not well.

Bravo, if you get an CAR, go with a 16 " light bbl, Vortex or A2 flash hider, The new 4 position Colt Stock (plastic) and A@ sites, no removeable carry handle crap. This will be a CQB weapon. You will still be able to mount optics if you think you need them, but nothing will rattle lose like the removeable handle can. Just my HO.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 19:15:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.192)

I must bring up a problem with having a fixed carry handle
and using optics.

The only problem with using a fixed carry handle in conjunction with optics is the problem of the sighting system being too high to get cheek weld and still be able to look through the sight.

Now you can add a cheek piece, but that thing is a pain in the ass to put in and take off because you have to take the stock off in order to do it.

I have a Eclan and I like the flat top mount, no goofing around with the stock piece when I go back to iron sights.

Just make sure the mount is tight!

Celer, Silens, Mortalis

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 19:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.101)

A day or so ago, I posted a request for help on how to approach what I'll call the 2nd trimester of my development as a shooter.. the fetal stages as it were.

Well, it's been s long time since I got to read much less write to the Roster. I've just been reminded of why this site is soooo damn good.

Pat, Rick, PeteR, Will, MicTac... thank you kindly for your email responses. It really made my week, not to mention introduced some food for thought that oughta keep both neurons firing for a while.

Gentlemen, you have my thanks and respect.

Ben:

You mentioned Berger 185's and Varget. I've not tried that combo yet. I have tried the 185's with 44.5 gr. of VV N550. I don't know what the velocity is for this combo, but it shot very well from my .308 out to 1000 yds. Needed 39.0 minutes at near sea level at approx 95 F. These were molyed bullets. I had thought of starting with 41.5 to 42.0 gr of Varget with a molyed 185... my 1.5 cents worth.

Rapid-Bolt-Boy-Wannabe from muggy Hotlanta,
Jeff A.
 

Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@BellSouth.COM>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 20:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

I've just come home after the first trainingsession on a new 100m moving target range with electronic targets. Point of impact is shown on a screen in front of the shooter. Whole series of shots are shown with the latest blinking during shooting. Points are calculated and everything can be printed out after the series. This is fun and very educational.

I'm trying to get a norwegian company who make electronic targetsystems to use standard PC hardware. I'd like to see a portable electronic target who transfers data to a laptop with wireless LAN and tcp/ip as protocol. The monitor should only be an application running on the PC. I use wireless LAN in laptops when journalists and photographers are covering large sportsevents. It works great. Imagine looking at and storing those 600m 5-shots groups at once. Maybe it even would be possible to hook the chronograph into the system.
 

TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 21:38:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)

Wow.

I mean, realy,...wow. Even coming from a a particulary biased newspaper like the Post, in all of the firearms-related pieces that I have ever read in print, I dont think I have ever seen one that was so thoroughly devoid of any *atempt* at even-handed reporting. Give it a gander. It's realy well below even the Post's normal stardards.

I forget...is the media ranked just above or below used car salesmen in surveys on credibility? And they wonder why...

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 21:47:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
manhattan, KS, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 21:59:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.189.101.130)

Mi dos centavos, Al S.
(I,m not a chef, but I play one in the ol'lady's kitchen)
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Not far from Four Corners in, Colorado, USA - Thursday, July 13, 2000 at 23:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.241)

I wouldn't post this on the roster, but it's a one shot deal and non-profit.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 00:47:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)

I didn't expect a fair report, so I wasn't surprised... but what got my ire up, was the comment by the cop (Brian Vice... "Vice??")... who said that civilians shouldn't be there... what the hell does he think he is, and what do they do to "Sniper cops" when they retire... give them a frontal lobotomy, so they can't remember all that "Bad stuff"?

It's Ghestpo jerks like this, that the framers of the Constitution were most worried about. In 1935 Germany, they called them "Brown Shirts"!

Sorry for the rant... it pisses me off to hear cops talk like power hungry little gods..

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 01:12:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Fuh-get about it. Just shot a box of win cleans in my .357 that I used to shoot bull's eye with. For those who aren't familiar, the "WinClean" is a lighter (125gr I think, forget right this second) bullet, with a "cleaner" burning powder. Maybe this ammo is uniquely bad, but it smoked so much as to obscure sight picture for follow up shots (even with white outline rear and colored front insert), and grouped EIGHT INCHES at 25 yds, from a rest. This was the single worst ammo experience of my life. The same gun generally groups about an inch at 25yards, well rested. Can't disclose what type of gun it is, no-one here respects the brand :).

My question, what does this increase in velocity (assume there actually isn't one in this winchester ammo) do to the computations that went into the twist rate anyway????

Anyway, when it comes to ammo, I prefer not to rock the boat, my inconsistent shooting does enough of that....

dan-o
dan-o <dan.overbey@worldnet.att.net>
mo-town, WV, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 02:36:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.100.242.17)

The only way I know is to have a whole boatload of ammo and nothing else to do for a LOOONNG time.

And you scoffers doubt their journalistic integrity?

What do P.R. guys say about all publicity being good? Here's hoping that buisiness is up.
 

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 03:23:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.15)

Excuse my rant, I did delete the "non politically correct" parts: ED
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Screw those revolutionaries, this is the, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 03:38:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.198)

Now, onto more pressing matters. A 300WinMag Sendero, I nearly forgot I want to get one of these things. I'm getting to the point where I have the money for the gun but not for the scope and mounts. I'm not gonna buy till I have enough to do the whole thing up right, man I hate having a gun without sights that I can't shoot till I can put glass on it.

I'm looking at buying one of those Tasco 16x SniperScopes(feel free to talk me into or out of them, I want to hear opinions so feel free to email me) that are out there as they aren't too much of a blow to the pocket book. It would allow me to spend more money on the mounts and the base and reuse them for a first rate scope in the future. My plan is I'll keep the scope for future rifles and replace the Tasco eventually with a MKIV when I can afford to get the 16X I really want.

It's gonna be a long range rifle so I'm not too concerned with using variable power scopes, the 4.5-14LR interests me but I'd rather just have the 14x as I'm can tell from the shooting I already do that I rarely go below 10x.

I'm gonna be doin a whole lot of archieve searching over the next few days it looks like. My main gripe already is the thought of either having to load or having to buy a bunch of expensive ammo to break the gun in. Shoppin around today the cheapest ammo for 300Wm was 24 bucks for some 150grn fodder.

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, Been shoppin around for a 300WinnyMag, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 04:08:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.32)

Well, got a hold of 300+ pounds of wheel weights, and I'm in the process of making them into ingots. What a chore. Once I'm done with that I'll add 1 pound of 50/50 solder to 9 pounds of wheel weights. According to Lyman, this produces No.2 alloy. Anyone have other suggestions? I would like to make linotype, but making it in small amounts is tricky I hear. Does any one know where to get linotype these days?

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 04:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.161)

"Pablito" and "Bravo". Det Brian Vice aint no fucking Nazi and second of all he can have an opinion like everyone else. If your reading comprehension were as great as your vocabluary you'll see that he was helping other students out in the course, including civvies. Having been there during that class, unlike either of you, I will tell you that Brian was very accepting of the civvies and enjoyable to teach.

Some of you guys are the first ones to jump up and scream "The Constitution! The Constitution!" when someone wants to limit YOUR rights or freedoms but when someone else voices an opinion you label them as a "brown shirt" or "jackboot thug" or whatever.

Cops can have opinions you know. When they sign their lives away to protect yours and mine they don't give up thier right to give opinions as long as they are "off the clock". While some peoples jobs never require them to get more than a few feet from a computer monitor other guys like Det Vice are out there in the shit. They have a real possibility of getting shot at and its understandable that they may not jump for joy about civvies learning this shit. You'll also notice that he did say that the liklihood of a civvie using this shit for criminal purposes is "astromically low".

Of course thats your opinion and you're welcome to it. But to label a guy you've never met a Nazi, brownshirt or whatever is bull shit!

THats my opinion.

OUT
 

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 05:03:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.145)

The ones I own ( for the A-2 stock and the Colt orig CAR stock) require the removal of the stock. Now, I rarely use glass on my H-Bar 21" upper ( non removable handle) so the stock piece is not on that often. With my M-4 upper, I just switch tops between iron sights and the Eclan with no fussin' around with a cheek piece.

I don't mind the flat-top upper, I have never had a problem with it loosening up or rattling but I am always willing to try new stuff, who makes the cheek piece?

Thanks man.

Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 05:18:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.70)

Looking around at the Bushmaster web page I found ya a link.
http://www.bushmaster.com/products/buttstocks/6600.htm

Personally I think these things should be cheaper than they are, cause they are what they are(whoa, sounds like something a cartoon chap I know would say).

I know what you mean about swapping uppers, I do it fairly often also. I'm an optics maniac so I opted for flattops on every variant I have. I don't have trouble with the carry handle jaring off but it does slide back about 1/16 inch during recoil. I'm about to do a bit of JB weld bedding on the bottom of it, put a little recoil lug under there and make it so it can't slide or back up. My Armalite mounts rely on a recoil lug for precise locating of the mount in the groves rather than rely on the mounting screw bolts like my carry handle uses, someone was thinking when they made that mount.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, I got a laugh out of the link guys. Have a media player for a quick song?, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 06:30:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.32)

Cut and paste or click on my name to go to it.

http://www.birdman.org/products/M82pistol.htm
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 08:39:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.32)

The printing industry is my bag (for about 45 more days, when I start gread school full-time, woo-hoo! :) and as you are probably aware there are not a lot of operational hot type machines left. However, I stumbled into one of the older print shops here in town on business about five years and found they they did still do a few jobs on letterpresses requiring hot type. They would call in a retired manager to run the Linotype machine as needed, perhaps two or three times a year. I contacted him and asked about any Linotype alloy he had surplus and he set me up with about 900 lbs for something like $0.14 per lb, well below market rate.

So ask around. You never know...

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 10:36:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Why don't you just heat treat the slugs instead of playing with the solder? You will get massive increases in Brinell Hardness and won't have to dick around with the molten lead quite as much.
And Be sure to flux the hell out of it. I used to do a primary melt, flux and mix alloys then ingot the stuff.
 
 

Read the Komarade katherine grahams Wash COM-Post article on Storm Mountain last night, THANK GOD I'm living in By-Gawd and not P.R.O.M.(Peoples Republic of Merry-Land) and bordering "Wonderland". CAN YOU SAY BRAINWASHING? - CAN YA BOYS AND GIRLS?

Then turned on the boob tube and watched that "poor little scum ball" getting his just deserts in PA.
The show turned out to have a pro police siding, and they even mentioned the worldwide footage being burned into peoples minds was EDITED! FUNNY THING HUH?
I get the idea the Lefties [Thin-chested, fruit-juice drinking, salad-eating, sandal-wearing offspring eg yuppies(THANKS TERRY W.!)] are trying to start more of the 1968 style rioting before the elections.

Less emotionally put, DON'T BELIEVE THE NEWS! PRAVDA would be happy if it still existed.

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 11:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.34)

Thanks for the compliment on my vocabulary... I have some good days, and some bad days.
In the vocabulary department, this wasn't one of your better days... I've seen you express yourself betterer!

Brian Vice may be a hell of a guy at a barbecue, I don't know him... but I was commenting on his comment...

------------------

"There were only two cops in the class," he notes. "They are not going to put that school on for two cops. We learned something and took that back to the law enforcement community. And the odds of the five others taking that information and doing something illegal are astronomically low. But in a perfect world, civilians shouldn't be there."

------------------

Well... tell me Gooch, what was it that you taught Brian, that the rest of us shouldn't know?
How to put a bullet in a man's brain at a mile?... well maybe, cuz you sure didn't teach that when I was there.

What was it that he took back to the law enforcement community... shooting at 1000yds... LE doesn't shoot at 1000yds, they average about 70yds, and I "think" the record long shot is under 200yds... so what is it that the rest of the civilian world can't know about shooting.

And what happenes to "Sniper cops" (or ex military snipers) when they retire with all this "Bad knowledge"... do they get penned up to protect society, or just get a frontal lobotomy, to remove all that bad stuff, so the world will be perfect?

Just what is that they learned that justifies "But in a perfect world, civilians shouldn't be there."??

Now, I read a lot, so my comprehension isn't all that bad... and it appears that the FBI has the same concerns as Bravo, and I...

Get your reading glasses on and go here...

http://shns.scripps.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=FBI-HOLOCAUST-07-05-00&cat=WW

... and you will find that Louis Freeh (the head of the FBI)... is taking his boys (and girls) to the holocaust museum to learn what?... to learn about the behavior of the police in pre-war Germany... the same thing I was talking about!

ASome partial quotes...
--------------
"In an attempt to get FBI agents to question such dubious operations
as Ruby Ridge and Waco, new recruits are being taught about the
conduct of police in Nazi Germany at the Holocaust Museum in
D.C. "We do this ... to remind them of the horror and evil which
can result from ... law enforcement abandoning its mission to
protect people and becoming the engine of oppression," said FBI
director Louis Freeh."
-------------
"Much of the Holocaust was perpetrated or supported by trained professionals who were 'doing their job,'"
-------------
"Jeffrey Higginbotham, FBI assistant director for training, said trainees taking the segment are exposed to two types of police officers in Nazi Germany; those who followed the dictates of the state and were, at least initially, rewarded and those who followed the dictates of conscience and were often dismissed and ostracized.
-------------
 

I would think if the FBI is worried, then maybe we all have something to worry about, when it comes to "Elite cops" or "Elte cop attitudes".

Ask "UnDude" what he thinks about civilians learning all this "Bad stuff"
 

You've been "inside" way too long

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 11:50:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

I have had lots of press over the years; TV, radio; newspapers, magazines. They NEVER get it right because they ALWAYS inject some editorializing. They also are writing about things that most of them know absolutely nothing about and are being exposed to for the first time so they don't even know the right questions to ask.

On Cops: Gooch is right in that everyone has an opinion and we, of all people, should be quick to defend the right of anyone, no matter how wrong or stupid, to express themselves. I spent a lot of time in Law Enforcement and have lots of cop friends and deal with lots of cops now as an instructor or as an expert witness (usually on the other side). In my opinion, most cops are not the same quality of the officers I worked with when I first started. The reasons are many and too complex to go into here on this forum, but most of you can probably figure out some of the reasons. Are they in danger and do they put their lives on the line? A very few on a very few occasions do. They are not in a combat zone and the average cop does not in his entire career face the same physical threat to his safety as an oil rig worker experiences in one day. The view that they are out there battling the forces of evil is hype promulgated by the cops themselves because it is in their rational self-interest to do so. They are street bureaucrats with guns. I have nothing but respect and admiration for most of the cops I personally know, but I also have contempt for most that I don't based on what I see of their actions and the lies I hear them tell under oath.

As a free people, it is in our individual and collective self-interest to always be suspicious of ANY agent of the state with enforcement powers. Remember, if the job were that tough, they wouldn't have high school graduates with "C" averages doing it.

Strength and Honor,
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 11:59:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 13:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

Did I hear you right that the guy the Philly cops beat the hell out of deserved it?

Bravo:

Be careful my man. Way back in the late 80s when I was working a counter-terrorist LE unit in Arizona, all law enforcement officers were being told to regard anyone that carried a pocket copy of the US Constitution or used the word "Constitution" in a contact as a threat. It is very easy to be labelled as an "extremist" or a "radical" rather the same way that hard corp religious types are labelled. It allows the sheeple to then dismiss anything you have to say. How many times, in polite company (I realize I am making assumptions here) has the issue of the right to keep and bear arms come up and any pro-gun advocate is labelled as a "paranoid?" Like racism, once the label is applied no support is needed.

I agree with your zealous defense of the Constitution, but you will sometimes take shots from unexpected quarters. If our Founding Fathers had not been "extremists" and "radicals", we would be like our pussy whipped neighbors to the north, disarmed and paying allegiance to the Union Jack or worse.

De Oppresso Liber,
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 14:48:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.66.20.32)

Mr Bob Stewart, of the Maadi-Griffin 50 cal fame, lost a needed court decision yesterday. But most importantly, and listen up, the BATF has the full customer list that allows the BATF to now arrest and charge each customer with various crimes.

People who purchased the Maadi-Griffin 50 cal kit are in jeopardy of being arrested and convicted of these crimes and perhaps others:
1. Possession of an unregisterd firearm bearing no serial number
2. Interstate transport of an illegal firearm.
3. Illegal manufacture of firearms
4. Failure to pay firearms tax
5. Conspiracy to evade tax and firearms regulations

Full text of my source:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=293
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:14:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.112.63)

Your Tasco 16x scope. I have a deputy friend who has one and he has problems with the thing not keeping true after each shot. The thing moves about 2 MOA after each shot. He wants a Leupold badly, but he chose the Tasco on price alone. Maybe this is an isolated problem to his scope. But just another voice...
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:20:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.112.63)

One thing I do notice here is that his comments were polite and professionally made which were responded to with insults and "ED's". Its stuff like this that makes people look at our community with raised eyebrows, including the ATF guys that read this site. Hello boys.. Anyway, Brian is a low key guy, a member of the NRA, the kind of guy that you would like to have a beer with and trade lies with.

It just torques me that some of you guys would draw a conclusion on him off of an article that everyone here agrees was tainted, slanted, skewed etc in the first place. You slam the writer except for what he says Brian was reported to have said. "This writer is ate up!! Except this part about the cop that I've never met." Look how he twisted around Rods comments and used them out of context. "Killer course", Andover for assasins", the shadow he cast over one students reference letter etc. Come on guys...you played right into the writers ploy.

"Pablito". Unlike your comment to me this isn't a slam on you, just some facts. Yes, I've been "on the inside" and am able to understand both sides of this. You haven't been so you don't. When I teach someone I become forever attached to that person. When he dies in combat, takes a bad shot, etc I feel partially responsbile. When they survive a war, save a hostage etc I feel satisfied. Can you imagine how I would feel if a former student (cop, military, civvy. It wouldnt matter)used his skills for criminal purposes and took an innocent life? Personally I would feel like shit and the liability issues are scarey. And by the way there are a few things, not many, that I would teach to some people and not to others. Does a "civilian" need to know how to disable the doors on a greyhound bus or defeat a VIP protection detail? Uh uh. Any instructor that says otherwise is either a liar or too mercenary for my tastes.

There are civilians that I won't teach and probably a few cops and military guys too. I've been on USMC instructional teams (CQB, sniper, Security Forces, etc) where we removed good Marines out of training for "problems". Not everyone needs to know this shit just like everyone doesn't need to be able to own firearms.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:26:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.162)

Yes, you heard me right!

The scumball was a Carjacker, caused an accident, fled the scene, started a 41 round shootout with local L-E, then stole a cruiser and involved most of the responding units in a high speed chase through a couple neighborhoods, supposedly tried to shoot a cop with a snatched gun, then resisted arrest.

How would you have handled it? ;-)

At least thats what i have heard

Have a Great Weekend!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:34:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

Gooch is right that the man can have his opinion and that it is no honor to insult him with name calling for it. It is honor to state that the statement Mr. Vice made that civilians should not have the same advanced training given to LE is frightening.

Maybe given the chance Mr. Vice would retract that statement or qualify it with the fact that cops everywhere have to face armed people bent on killing them and others, and they don't want them further trained in such arts as sniping.

Perhaps Mr. Vice is misguided by the media and his brotherhood of cops, but his statement is still frightening. It is our job to educate the liberal masses and "elitist" cops, not just bash them and call them names. 'lito, write the man a letter with your concerns. E-mail even. Need his address? HE needs to hear your concerns. Not a slam to you, but a serious statement. We need to ensure LE understands why we have certain concerns about their actions and statements, and why we want to be armed. LE needs to know what's up. Maybe, just maybe, LE will listen and cooperate with us. With all the crap in politics today, LE and civilians need each other's cooperation more than ever.

As I see LE and our military arm up against ordinary citizens, I continue to arm up as well. If Mr. Vice doesn't like that, then he should do what he can to disarm the LE crowd accordingly, and I will disarm too. An entry team does not to be used in 19 of 20 cases currently deployed. Even then, why automatic M-16's?

People fear LE because LE arms up, while the LE crowd arms up claiming they fear civilians who are well armed. No doubt criminals have in the past used superior firearms and tactics, but to use a SWAT team, now called SRT, on a pothead with a few plants in his house with no known use of violence or ownership of a firearm, is outrageous. We see SWAT temas carry out unlawful orders of the federal government, such as property confiscation that ends up in the landowners favor in court, but the damage is already done. We the People see this, and we want to arm ourselves. A totally natural reaction. A number of LEOs are not rambo wannabees, but rather they like the training and "toys" they get to play with, but unfortunately, they then must use them, and on us!

Mr. Vice believes we should not have such training, but, oops, I already have such training. I got it in the military. Do I get my lobotomy now that I am a civilian?

Loving America, but concerned for her future.
 
 
 

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 15:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.112.63)

First question...

Other than felons, mentally insane, and violent, etc...

"Not everyone needs to know this shit just like everyone doesn't need to be able to own firearms."

Who decided "WHO" should know this shit, and WHO decides WHO should be able to own a gun???

The Government, the military, the police, your local "National Organization for Women" chapter, the DNC... Chuckie Schummer, HCI, and how are they (who ever "they" are) going to enforce "WHO can know this shit, and who can have a gun"?

How about registering all longrange shooting schools, like Rod Ryan's, and James Jarrett's... to control WHO knows this shit, and how about a national gun registration system to control WHO owns a gun?

And I can hear that guy, Diaz, from the "Center for Violence Policy"... that same guy that wants to ban 50 cal rifles, and the same guy who "personally" wants to put Rod Ryan out of business... I can hear him in congress saying... "Even the police don't think civiliams should be allowed to go to these schools, and not only that... these 30 caliber "Sniper rifles" can blow out a mans brains at a mile, and should be banned, like the 50 caliber rifles... after all these are nothing but weapons of war."

My second question is...

"There are civilians that I won't teach..."

Well, how'd a reporter from the Washington Post slip past that nose of yours... these guys can't hit poop with a roll of toilet paper... how'd he get into a Counter-Sniper course. I've had reporters come to me on stuff... and by the third sentence, they were "busted"... so what happend?

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 16:08:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

James,
How sad is it that the use of the Constitution gets one labeled as an extremist? What I think may be even worse is that I understand why they do label people as such. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are symbols of freedom. People are losing sight of the foundations of this country and soon no foundation will be left.

At some point people will realize it sayy "We the people" at the top of the Constitution, not "You the government". We are in danger of losing something that we are the rightful owners of. Not our guns (although we will lose them too) but our government. The military is responsible for external security of our nation. Internal security is the job of the citizenry. We are supposed to protect ourselves and our neighbors. If we want to stay free we better protect ourselves and OUR government. The right to keep and bear arms is necessary to the security of a free state.

James, Mike and our other instructors,
Keep training those civilians. The one you train are the last defense to all of our freedom.

Now back to shooting.
Does anyone have experience with the 338 Lapua? My new Sako should be here next week and I need reloading tips and any other information on the cartridge.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless TX, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 16:25:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.21.196.108)

But this isn’t about his opinion, it’s about his reported philosophy. I’ll admit that I’m a bit of a “leftist” in some areas. Like I believe we need a standing Army, something that the founding fathers didn’t want. If there were no standing Army, Rod’s courses would be morally mandated for the masses, for the preservation of our national soverignty. Law enforcement, military, and civilians all one. And let us not forget, if the police (citizens in law enforcement) are trained (and become) as a branch of the military, then by default, you’ve got “para-military” personnel patrolling the streets. That’s virtually martial law. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-cop, or anti- most ANYONE taking these classes, as long as they’re honest and law abiding. That's the real cincher, we're not against people learning this, we just don't want it in the wrong hands. I say that the current filters are in place and doing well, nothing more is needed. When America sees incidences of "head shots at a mile" by criminals,
then more should be done. Not until!

James: uh-oh. I've got my pocket Constitution at home, got one for the wife and boy too. If that's the qualification for "radical", I'll accept you calling me that and wear it as a badge of honor. Thanks for the advice, very true. Never thought I would take shots from quarters I think of as e-home. At least nobody can call me racist, I voted for the only candidate that was a strict Constitutionalist!

The Constitution does NOT grant us ANY rights. It merely enumerates and clarifies our "God given" rights. We as citizens, through contract, authorize individuals to act in our behalf in certain areas. Thus policemen. Now, if a policeman (and government in general) gets it's authority from the citizenry, how can he have more authority than than the citizen that gave that authority?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
this done YET??, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 17:00:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

And all stemming from a newsreport in a notoriously anti-gun publication. Talk about effective firing. Frankly, I am disgusted with those of you who went off half cocked. Must be a lack of sleep, or C2H5OH poisoning. At least the most recent posts are more curteous.

From the general tone of the article, I would guess that the quotes were carefully selected by the reporter. Based on the article, Fitzpatrick may not be the best person for a sniper position and Vice may have had a bit of an elitist attitude. I cannot say anything further about either without meeting or talking to them.

As far as knowledge which is restricted, the decisions Gooch makes are based on his personal observations. There are people I wouldn't trust with the knowledge of which end the bullet comes out of. I am comfortable with the idea that that kind of specialist knowledge is not routinely taught, as I am with the idea that much more useful knowledge such as how to shoot accurately out to 1200 yards at unknown distances is taught freely. The key point is that the restrictions are imposed personally, not institutionally. The most dangerous weapon in existence is the one between your ears, and nobody has yet figured out a reliable method of disarming that. (while keeping the body functional, that is. A 168 Match King at 2500 doesn't count.)

Besides, I know how to disable a Greyhound bus's doors (Use a big hammer) and how to defeat a VIP detail (Use a bigger hammer, as appropriate). I don't have access to the equipment required or the details, so I couldn't do it in practice.

Anyway, settle down and stop bitching at each other, would you.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 17:47:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

"Some of these cars today have really extreme windshield angles(Firebird and Camaro come to mind) and this might be a concern"

You are a Marine and are worried about shooting through American made car windshields? How many countries that Marines may be stationed have Amercian firebirds? Where in America should a Marine be concerned about operations?

You can guess at my point. This dovetails into the recent conversations about Americans distrusting LE and military.
Hank <ninesoft@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 18:05:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.112.63)

Sorry, gave mine to an officer. He had skipped that part of his indoctrination. (haha) (Just kidding. I love officers. They distract fire away from me!)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 18:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.225.112.63)

I will lead by example.

A quote from a LE suggesting that in a perfect world, civvies would be prohibited from attending Storm...this concerns me.

I don't know what a perfect world is...but in the real world, I think this discussion is a simple extension of what our founding fathers were thinking when they wrote the 2nd amendment...

Civvies are the constituency for which LE, government and the military exist....they ARE entitled to be able to EFFECTIVELY protect their country...that includes training.

my opinion...
 

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 18:45:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

I don't think it would take a boatload of ammo to do this. I don't think it would take a very long time either.

I found a web-based balistic calculator at http://www.cybermesa.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

it seems pretty versatile. What do you experts think?
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.162.86.225)

According to my calculations, If you could deploy 55 serious riflemen, each one capable of holding no worse than a 2 MOA group at 1 mile distance, and they all had the right dope on their sights, if they all fired at the same time, chances are that one of them would get the job done with one shot.

If their rifles could hold only a 3 MOA group at 1 mile distance, it would take 123 riflemen to do the same job.

Try working the problem this way, assume a 5 inch target area. What do you come up with?

There is nothing strange or unusual about these kind of tactics. They are widely taught in Law Enforcement, at least at the ELITE level.

Take the recent Philly incident as an example.
Although the distance was much shorter, and the cops were using their feet instead of a rifles, the principle is the same. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:39:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.188)

How did the reporter get by? If I remember right Rod knew he was a reporter. The decision to let him attend was above my pay grade.

Guys I have no problem with every swinging dick in this country that is a law abiding citizen knowing how to hit a target at whatever distance, including "heads at over a mile". I have no problem with any law abiding person having the ability to defend, home, state, country etc. I have a problem with the LE agencies exceding their limits. I do place restrictions on what should be taught in certain types of training.

Would you have the launch codes to our ICBM's made public knowledge? Okay that's extreme, how about all of the locations of every agent the DEA has in the field? Lets publish the operational techniques of every CT unit our country has and make shooting through glass a 4H project. Come on. No one is saying that Joe Citizen doesn't have the right to learn to use firearms. Like was said here already there are plenty of guys running around with this info in thier brain housing group already. Some stuff is just sensitive and shouldn't be out there for every Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris that are floating around out there. How come you guys aren't thrashing Scott, Marius and Ken for not wanting "Minors and Militants" on this website? Same concept bucaroo!

Pablito, Bravo you guys may be the most upstanding dudes in the world but there are people out there that would use schools like SMTC, ASA, Gunsite, etc to further their criminal careers. Thats why trainers want background info and some people get nervous regarding civilians attending some of these schools. I've trained and been involved in training of thousands of people to shoot, stab, and kill in every way imaginable and not everyone of them would be welcome on my doorstep at zero-dark-thirty. Some were just wierd.

I didn't think I changed the subject. You guys were torching a cop for making a statment and I was trying to explain why he may have said what he said.

Scuuuuze meeeee.

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)

My soapbox is back in the corner and will stay there until further need arrises.

Pablito, Bravo... I love you guys!!!!

Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 19:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)

Steve: getting 55 soldiers to chow at the same time is hard enough. Firing all at once? HA!

Shooting at Cameros? Well, possibly. Not if they’re doing well over 160 though. Oh, we’re talking Cameros ;-)

Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
gonna take life easy for a day or two, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 20:53:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 22:18:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.11)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 22:34:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

John

John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Friday, July 14, 2000 at 22:41:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.165)

Would be an interesting shot, my personal ballistician( whom I have consulted on this very issue assures me it can be done!).

All you have to do is, (1)- Adjust your sooper dooper snapper scope, in 1/4" moa cliks of course, to an elevation of a bullet path of a mere 161.47'of drop, then once this small feat is accomplished, if you got a 10 mph 3-9 wind, you just(2) non chalantly dial in again w/ your sooper dooper, 28.06' of R/L windage.

See nuthin to it!!!!!!!all this takes place in approx 3.799 seconds (enough time for BRAVO 7.62, to swig one of his now famous BREWSKI's).
And maybe take out the trash................

Ah!!!!, American entremanureship, ain't it grand!!!!, wonder if we could set up a demonstration, and let the reporter do the honors w/ the all to easy BRAIN shot @ 1,760 yards??........

Where's Gen'l Patton when we really need him!!!!!!!.

As an Employer of mine once said at a company party.
His son stumbles by filled to the gill's, making an arse of himself in front of customers,Dad, really embarrassed says " There goes a prime example of why some animals eat their young.)( why couldn't we be so lucky w/ the Liberals??)........fwiworth....tshoes
Terry (TSHOES) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 01:15:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.26)

here's the particulars.

I'm getting flip up sights, front and rear, as well as a free float tube. Its a 16" postban M4 with muzzlebreak. I got a QD ARMS 19 coming, and I'll probably get a swan sleeve to help out with eye relief. I'm thinking a low fixed power, and I've only got about $3-400 to spend.

I'm looking at two scopes (1) Leupold M8 6 x 42 in matte with target knobs, and (2) AMT Professional 5 X 33 with lighted reticle.

I know enough about the Leupold - what I'm really looking for is info / evaluations of the AMT, particularly the reticle.

Any help you can provide with either of these scopes, or other suggestions is appreciated

Please e-mail me at bbrawlers@home.com

Marko <bbrawlers@home.com>
Asheville, NC, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 01:33:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.230)

Sure, a brain shot at a mile is when you have a 2 value cross wind... further without cross wind... and we can sneek up on a 'yote (a real one) and pull his tail... and I ain't pulling your tail ;)

Gooch, the first round in Sept, is on Me and Bravo... Brian Vice left a phone message on my machine, and I'll probably talk to him this weekend...

'lito

Hmmmm... I hit "submit" but nothing happened, and half the Roster is missing... MARIUS!!! STOP FOOLIN' AROUND...

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 01:46:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

I owe you a apoligy... well a partial one anyway.

I just got off the phone with Brian Vice.
Way cool guy... Owns a M40-A3 tank, and collects machine guns... and is as rabid about the 2nd amendment (and all the other "little" ones) as Me and Bravo... he's a real stand up guy.

He said that he saw the piece by the Washington Post, and it was all bulls**t, and he didn't say the quoted piece at the end... so I owe you two cold ones.

I also retract my comment about your "nose"! The Post was invited from up top, and didn't sneak in.
(Rod, DUDE... The Washington Times, OK... but the friggin' POST????)

But I will stand on my opinion of ANY LE or military, that think that the rest of society should have limited access to guns and knowledge about them...

'lito

Marius... stop foolin with the Roster. We're loosin' history here.
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 03:21:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Pablito, I did not allow the POST to do any article. The guy paid for the course just like everyone else. He said he wanted to do an article for LIFE magazine and he was not anti-gun. So my big mistake was trusting someone. The story is bullshit. The main person talked about in the article failed due to a bad attitude and he couldnt shoot.

We had one of our dark green instructors come to us on day one and told of this guys questioning him about anti-gun, racisum, and some other crap we felt did not fit into the intrests of a pro gun, pro freedom writer, so we gave the guy false info about everything from my shoe size to what color I crap each day. The joke is on him.

He got to talk to one individual for an extended amount of time because that individual choose to spill his guts when offsite. The guy was wined and dined and felt that he would be a hero by giving the rambo BS. Everyone else just wanted to train. What the article did not tell was the dedication and motivation of the students who passed the course. Who they were and why they were there. The course had LE officers, soldiers, and professinals from many career fields. Some wanted to hone their hunting skills, some needed the course due to their profession, some wanted the challenge.

All who passed the course did so because they kept their head out of their third point of contact and did what they were taught when they needed to.

Now the good news...all press is good press. I have sold 32 course slots to next years sniper and carbine courses from people who read the article.

Rod Ryan
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 04:11:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.174)

Posted a long un to Mr. WILD BILL ROGERS,and it didn't even show up..................now half the roster is gone, you guys shouldn't have talked about Big Bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Terry(tshoes) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 04:27:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.53)

THen the little thread grew and grew, fueled by tempers on both sides of the argument. "ED's" flew, attacks started to get personal, it began to bring back memories of the days of Rusty Thailor. Then the facts began to form and started to confuse the issues.

Finally the oracle from atop Storm Mountain calmed the thread with facts from ground zero and now everyone watches as the thread takes its final breaths. It struggles to rejuvenate(?) itself, it reaches for more facts to distort yet, nay, it cannot regain life! So it slips peaceably into the darkness...its strength ebbing, its aura fading, its shit stinking.

Do not worry little thread. You will be reborn in an other form! There are other turds to polish! Your spirit will prevail!!

Damn its late. Midnight shifts suck. I'm out of here.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 05:16:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.141)

Rod: I'm truly glad to hear that the press had the exact opposite effect I was anticipating. What a fetid, putrid piece of syphletic monkey vomit that "reporter" must be. Not only to purposefully outright LIE to you the way it did (infiltration?), but also to print those lies, misquote people left and right, and in the case of Vice, obviously fabricate what it thought would fit its agenda. This is nothing short of infuriating. Not that I trust the press, and I KNEW the stuff about your school was false, but that was one step too far. I liken it to quoting someone confessing child molestation falsely.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
where we SIP, not gulp, our beer, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 06:02:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.136)

Steve/Nato, enough cracks about "Ellte Cops" why dont you join and show us how it is done? I missed the humor Gooch found in your post.

Rod, the Post will get none of my money. Glad to hear you are selling more slots because of the dweeb.
Undude/Mike
MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 11:41:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.21.139.248)

Jim Mitchell, I agree LE/Government exists "By the People, for the people". Now when the public explains that to Washington, we may get the country back. Problem is so few have balls enough to say it anymore. Sheep we are surrounded by Sheep and not the ones Pete likes so much. Seems like most people want government to solve all their problems. Not me and not anyone on here.

Gooch way to be a stand up guy. Too many jump on a guy before they have all the facts.

Anyone that reads a paper or hears a news article and thinks they have all the facts smash your head in a solid core door until thoughts come out.

Undude
MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 12:34:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.211)

Marko, have you thought of a 1.5 - 5x Matte Leupold Vari-X III for the CAR? Premier Reticle in Virginia (go to the Sniper Country Links).

Bravo: Watch out with a longer sun shade tube. Remember that as the tube gets longer LESS LIGHT COMES IN THE OBJECTIVE LENS. Where will this bite you dead in the ass? Try early morning, and in the evening as your light begins to fade. Benchresters have long mirage tubes usually made out of clear or white plastic to cut down mirage coming off the barrel, but light still comes in thru the tube material (this from guys who normally shoot 24, 32, and higher magnification scopes. You could try a mirage strip over the handguard and barrel (usually just a strip of fabric). Also, if you jamb your tube against something, you risk the chance of: twisting the scope in the rings; bending the front bell of the scope; breaking off the mirage tube.

That fella that stole the car in Philly, shot a cop, stole a marked patrol car, and got beat up ought to fell lucky the cop he shot didn't die, and he only got lumped up. If he had shot AND KILLED one of my buddies he'd have been toast. I believe those human cops showed remarkable restraint.

Any of you not in uniform remember when Somalis dragged the body of a United States Army Task Force Ranger soldier thru the streets of Mogadishu, played on CNN? Now think of someone trying that with one of your family, closest friends, or colleagues.

There's a story that was in the American Rifleman where a guy driving on the highway watches as a knucklehead that got pulled over shoots the cop dead. The (armed) Good Samaritan gets out with his deer rifle and kills the bastard on the spot. The cops and NRA commend and decorate him, and the liberals want him crucified.

Guess whose side that civilian with the deer rifle was on?
 

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 12:34:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Gooch raises an old and interesting question: where do we draw the line on RKBA? His ICBM launch code scenario is obviously extreem. Clearly the founing fathers did not intend for us to start and prosecute nuclear wars and take out entire cities. So just where do we draw that line?

I think it would be one consistent with the mission of the unorganized militia as the founding fathers saw it, projected into modern times. That would be arms compatible with a mission focused on local defense and, potentialy, resistance to a tyranical central authority. Given the logistical, training and other limitations of such a formation, it would not logicaly include crew-served weapons, weapons of mass destruction or any weapon systems that require frequent upper-echelon repair or maintnence. Such weapons should be capable of putting out a reasonable amount of firepower but consistant with militia training and logistical capabilities. In other words, semiauto but not full-auto: its just not useful enough for this mission to bother with.
In other words, the battery of the modern disorganized militiaman should closely resemble the array of arms that is legaly avaialble to most of us right now. Generaly no more but certainly no less.

Oh, and sniper/tactical/target/large-bore varmint rifles most certainly do fall under that umbrella. Moreso that most other things, I feel.

Comments?

-Tom
 
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown , SC, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 12:47:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

If memory serves me correctly, as is sometimes not the case (Sometimers), at my age,I believe we were discussing the reporter and his report about cranial vault hits at one mile.( just a measley 1760yds).

This with a .308 Win, Bill, I said it can be done!!!!.....
All you have to do is get your sooper dooper snapper scope, w/1/4" cliks (of course), dial in your elevation, which will have to be enough to allow for 171.375' of drop, and if you allow for a 10 mph 3-9 wind,all you need to dial in 28.714' of R/L windage...........A snap!

See how easy!!!!!!, man I know tons of people who can do that it's so easy!!!,don't you??

I vote we get the L D reporter out to the range and hand him A RIFFLE, and let him show us how it's done, after all he took the class didn't he??, that ought to make him a SPURT.

Seriously, Washington Post????......Guys we no no good thing comes from the D O C in the way of public domain newspapers, or for that matter, much of anything else that comes to mind...........

Got to go, got to go practice those 1 mile shots w/ my ADL .308, from Wul-Murt..........Terry(tshoes).Undude Mr. Miller, sorry your heading to Az, coulda used you in Texas!!!
Terry(tshoes) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 15:02:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.58)

Hey? Maybe my local ATF or FBI agent drives a Camaro?(Bad joke, hopefully) And in this wonderful world of multinational corporations, they just stick a new badge on it and sell it overseas. Riceburners also have some pretty agressive windshield angles,the 3000GT and some others come to mind. And there's always the Italian stuff. It's just theoretical right now, have no worries about my loyalties. "Preserve and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic" is rather important to me and anyone that is in my platoon. Worry about the general officer corps, the enlisted guys(especially the NCO's and even the company grade officers) know what's up. BTW your militia guys are going to need defensive AT weapons also, try taking on tanks with rifles, it's tough. Also Mr Vice has a tank, as in AFV? Then it would be an M4-A3 Sherman, right? Semper Fi...Ken M

"The unarmed man is not just defenseless - he is also contemptible."
Machiavelli

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 15:48:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.177)

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 17:07:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Building public opinion for their cause is a necessary
first step. This pussbucket from the Washington Post
and the article that they printed seems like a giant-
step toward realization of the beginning of their goals.

ROD.... I fully understand the need for a business to make a profit
in order to survive, but please don't confuse the short
term victory of selling more courses with the tremendous
setback that negative publicity has attached to it.
I wish you and SMTC only sucess.

Al S.
 

Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 17:11:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.74.10)

Hope I don't have to intervene on the Roster again - twice in one week is enough!

I've also archived while I had the chance, but kept it bigger than normal to give everybody time to read again what was missed. Hope this helps.

Pete, you liked the blue wildebeest biltong? We're busy eating the springbok and gemsbok now :-)

Marius
Marius Ferreira <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
Pretoria, RSA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 19:33:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.15.184.28)

Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 19:47:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.121)

Yours for better LE,
Brian T. Vice
Brian Vice <bvice@mindspring.com>
Moss Point, Mississippi, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 19:58:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.4.69.64)

So you are saying that the printed quote from you that civilians should not be taught the art of sniping is either incorrect or taken out of context? No hostility here, but my concern is that many officers have made such statements and that goes against my instincts to trust such people. Gooch and others trust you very much, and I would like to know that they are correct.

Sincerly and thanx,
Hank
Denver, CO
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 20:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.211.242.226)

If the laws change, I guess I'll start teaching long range hunting, bird watching, photography...the list goes on, the skills are the same.

I do provide contract training to the LE and Military. The truth is that there is not enough money in it to pay the bills. The "civilian" side makes up most of my companies income. I have been scorned and ridiculed for the last four years from some in the LE community for providing this evil training. So what, they dont pay the bills, you guys do.

See you in Sept. for the SNIPER Competition.

Rod Ryan
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 21:43:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.139)

Past history, has always proven to me that when you ask a guy to defend a statement that he made and all you get for an answer is insults and threats it is a pretty safe bet that he does not know what he is talking about. But I guess there is an exception to every rule.

I am still willing to hear an explanation on how you come up with a 3 to 4 minute difference between a 1moa shooter + 1 moa rifle, and a 1/2 minute rifle + 1 moa shooter.

My last post was not directed at you or anyone else. That you would take offense from this only adds to the weight of evidence that you might have a little attitude problem.

To GOOCH: You sir, are a Prophet.
Prophet- a teacher, preacher, or poet. One who fortells events.

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, July 15, 2000 at 23:51:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.61.68)

Dave: I was going to go 6" to 8" MAX for the sun shade, is that TOO much? I'm not wanting a mirage tube as much as a good "anti-glint" tube. Thought about a 4" tube, just figured it would be easier to cut some off than to add it on later. Suggestions on length?

Tom Simpson: where we draw the line. The supreme court drew the line for us in US vs Miller. You have the right to a M-16A2 and a Beretta M9 specifically. More liberally, you have the right to anything you can illustrate is in common stock in any national service. Currently, it's being upheld that a doctors Beretta 92F was included (same as the M9) and of course M-25's are covered ;-) As for the founding fathers, the idea was that INDIVIDUALS owned arms, townships or cities owned cannons. Where the line gets grey would be something like a LAW rocket or 203. I don't want one, but the case could be made that it's a personal weapon so.....

Mr. Vice: you've got my most sincere apologies about my assasination of your character. Unfortunately, I was lead a-stray by my beleif in somewhat moral institutions and the better nature of man. Won't happen again, and I look forward to hearing how you personally ROAST the opposition. If you're looking for an alliance, I'm more than glad to help in your endeavours however you might see possible.

Rod: this is extremely welcome news! The only bad side to this is the problem of inflexibility with my current employer. Basically, I've got my choice of next year's Storm retreat or CQB with James (not enough vacation time). I feel truly LUCKY to be in a such a country, and enjoy the company of such patriots, that I have this kind of problem. Much akin to questioning if I should drive the Ferarri or the Lotus ;-)

Stevie: ah, our local comic relief. Yes, Mike is an elite officer, only the elite could bang a gong at 850 like that with a no-scoped CAR. Care to give it a try? From personal experience, Mike is nothing like you characterize him. And you should be nice to him, he's old, frail, and uses a walker due to too many surgeries. He's an excellent teacher, and was extremely good to us "civvies", showing none of your referenced "elitist attitude". It's out there, but not in this one.

well, must be off to smash my head in a solid core door until thoughts come out, (note I've said NOTHING about the Philly cops, learned my lesson!) and then try my hand at a Irish red ale.
Bravo762 <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
mistrusting more than just the government in the, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 01:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.166)

That is pretty much what I had in mind: parhaps the LAWs and SAWs can be held in a central armory. :) BTW, I rather doubt that an original intent argument in favor of the 2nd would, could or should be limited to those models actualy in the inventory. I'm pretty sure that there was no decent system of standardisation in the Continental Army at that time. Militiamen of the 19th century at least were typicaly equipped with either second-line and-or obsolecent equipment (and not enough of it) or self-equipped, often with better gear than the regular Army. I think Miller said something about being "suitable for militia service", not identical to the general issue arm.

My comment on semi-auto vs. full auto was not based on the idea that somehow full-auto or burst arms arent covered by the 2nd but rather the practical notion that select fire is simply not very useful for the mission at hand. If the USMC can get by with as little full auto training as they do then I figure we can as well. I further figure that a militiaman has more in common with a Marine than a soldier anyway: fighting come-as-you-are battles with whatever ammo you have on you plus whatever might be in that stubby little logistical tail the Corps tries to provide. I think I see why the Corps is so parsimonious with ammo: they have fought a few battles where no more would be coming for awhile, ie Guadacanal. We should have the same mindset.

Al Simon:

I know what they want. All I can say to them is, good luck. They'll need it.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 01:26:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Me I'm just a cop not an elitist, just another one that has put in his time. Many more just like me out there, just most would go away and not put up with your lack of true knowledge. I just will not let some guy badmouth a bunch who has only read about things. Gooch, Rod or a host of others on here can tell me I am wrong and I will take a long look, but you are so wrapped up with numbers you forget that shooting is what all this is about. Dont worry about who thinks what is the way to measure a group, what matters is being able to shoot. Most of that is learned after the basic instruction one gets. Trigger time and learning while you snap the caps is everything. Just because a man does not agree with you does not make him an enemy, but this elitist thing about cops is a great way to get one.

Last time we went down this road you stayed away for awhile and never answered me on the put up or shut up. You can leave this alone or take it to the next level. I wont back down from you. Stop the cop bashing and leave me alone and I will do the same. You think you can do better get a badge and show us.

Detective Vice, good to have you on here. Sorry the press f'd you but everytime a cop talks to, near them, or they hear of you talking sometime they misquote you.

Bravo, you see the oil can for my walker anywhere?
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 03:46:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.22)

I work very hard at a regular job, make very good money in the private sector.

I have never been arrested for anything in my life, nor have I ever had as much as a misdemeanor charge brought against me.

I have passed an FBI background check, am a CCP holder, for 6 years now.

I shoot on a regular basis, and am as patriotic as they come.

All this said to say this: If those of you who have the expertise to teach and train, people like myself, the skills required to be productive and an asset to our country in time of war, civil unrest, protection of our homes and families, then where pray tell do we get it?

All of us know the Police are NOT responsible for our protection, as the Supreme court has already ruled, so that leaves ME/US with the burden of protecting ourselves and families.

If every man in this country would take it upon themselves, to participate in your classes and learn basic shooting skills/ marksmanship, we wouldn't have to be having these discussions about who/ what/where/ and when SOMEONE is going to come and put us under the IRON FIST of Tyranny, and destroy what so many have already died for...........

I again thank you, and all others on this DR that don't feel "SUPERIOR", or are afraid to teach those CIVI's like myself the art of the rifle, and or CQC. as Gooch made mention, liability, it is a serious issue, but you can certainly screen people, and get the percentages in YOUR favor.

Stop and think about this, IF you don't teach US, then who will?.
GOD forbid if the time ever comes that we should have to take up arms,I daresay, you'll be damn glad you did.

WE are on your side!..........fwiworth....terry.
TERRY(TSHOES) <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 05:54:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.191)

I hated math in school. I was only mildly interested in trig. Shooting long range is the only real use I have ever found for all those boring classes in highschool and college. That is what shooting is for me. Just Noisy Trigonometry.

To CDC: There really is a formula that will give the numbers that I mentioned in the answer to the long range problem. It is no more difficult to use than trying to figure out how many shingles you need to cover the roof of your house. I don't know how accurate it is. I am willing to bet that the Bayes formula is much better. I was sincere when I asked if you would mind giving your estimations on this problem. Just to compare notes. Forget the tree diagram, I will take your word for it.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 06:12:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.43)

Since it came up, if an armed civie happens upon a LEO stuck betwen a rock and a hard place, maybe even rounds being fired, how should said civie approach and help without:
a) drawing fire from LEO who may think that you are another bad guy.
b) drawing fire from the backup that will arive at some point during the event.
c) aviod some of the "lawyer fest" that would likely be instigated by the bad guy(s) or next of kin after these types of incidents.

It is a given, that if possible you would call 911 or whatever number is required to call for help and pass on the sitrep. Probably tell them that you were attempting to help.

What about the post incident stuff. Expect to arrested, be held for questioning, or provide statement and ID, and expect to go "downtown" at a later date to give full deposition.

I can't see passing by, and not helping as much as possible. While a call for help is a minimun, personal intervention may still be needed to avoid tragedy.

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south west, PA, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 07:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.87)

We all know various antigun factions monitor this and other shooting related sites. Also some government agencys do the same thing.
I'm sure they are rubbing thier hands together with glee when they see us fighting amongst ourselves. Remember the song that goes "united we stand, divided we fall", or the military tactic "divide and conqueor".

My point is your both are probably stand up guys, who have for months been caught up in an escalateing battle of words. I know you're both men of honor, otherwise you wouldn't be on this site to start with. So lets all be men and admit we all were wrong about some things (me too for posting this) and unite once again in our quest for and to share knowledge with each other.

The real enemy is still lurking out there, patiently waiting, so lets give them as little fuel as possible.

Danny
 

Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 12:36:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.36.78)

I think you need to move the dates of your CQB course, so Bravo can come to Storm... and that includes you... Grab your best stick, and come to Storm also... I think it used to be a horse ranch before Rod got there, so you'll feel right at home... brews on me.

Steve (hockeypuck)...

In NYC, you will be arrested, and proscuted, unless the cop in trouble, says "Thanks for the help, now get the hell outta here!"

Maas Ayube, noted LE, handgun instructor, and shooting incident court expert, says never talk to the police until 24 hours has passed, and your "post trama shock" has passed... and that prety much applies to LE also... shut up until your brains get back in gear... what you say right after a shooting, no matter how rightious the shooting, may come back at the worst time, and "Bite" you... remember Bernie Goetz.

Stevie (Nato@notsobright)...

Glad you're back after your nappie. You have been whining for ever about show you the numbers. I'm putting together a bunch of stuff for Leupold, and it includes lotsa of pretty color graphs and stuff that's EASY to understand... and it'll be ready in about 2 weeks... I invited you to send me your snail-mail address so I could send some of it to you... but haven't heard doodly-squat from you. Have you decided you don't want to see the numbers... maybe it's more fun to stay in the dark and whine!

We all know you don't drink Cool-aid... at least, so you say... but how about lemonaid... are those lemonaid stains on your pants and sneakers, or the stains from.. uh.. the other stuff??

PeteR, UnDude, Bravo, and a slew of others, including myself, want to see you shoot something besides your mouth, so this year, when you drive 400 miles to Storm... don't forget the little bullets like you did last year.. (they're little brass things that go in the the gun)... bring the price of admission, and bring the pink-slip to your '03-A4...
 

'lito
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 12:40:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Mr Vice,
You are indeed welcome here.
 

Bravo,

I believe the rule for glint reflection is a minimum of twice the length of the Objective lens diameter. My FWIW feelings are get an ARD, or use a bit of netting or panty hose. over the front end.
Too long and you get the sewer pipe effect, been covered in Hot Tips I think.
The only time they are of practical value is load development, where long strings may be fired, and the barrel warms up to the point heat mirage interferes with sight pix.
 
 
 

Steve,
I think its in your best interests if you leave Mike Miller alone on this page.

And by the way,

ARE YOU SHOOTING at The Sniper Rendezvous?,

MANY inquiring minds want to know, or see you shoot, maybe even a little side event with Mike, or 'Lito?

Me, I can't shoot anywhere near as good as most of the guys there last year, and I WILL still be there to learn and try my best at bettering my abilities.
Alas, sometimes its all we can do :-(
 

Chao!
 
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 12:49:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.179)

Hey guys- how's that for proof of my elitist attitude!
MicTac <Mictac@AOl.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:45:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.66.150.212)

The very reason the country needs a trained citizenry familiar with the service and long-range rifle is to teach the huge number of untrained men who would be mobilized for a war. Lots of people never thought we would need that kind of tactical and technical expertise. Think of the need that suddenly appeared on Monday morning, December 8, 1941.

That's why we have a Director of Civilian Marksmanship, the Civilian Marksmanship Program, and National Matches.

A citizenry trained for CQB? Hmmmm. As G. Gordon Liddy said about the BATF, "Black fatigues and MP5s do not make you the the SAS." How about becoming an auxiliary po-lice or sheriff's deputy?

I don't think any cop taking fire and casualties will ever turn down a citizen's offer of help. I guess it's one of those questions of right and wrong. Do you stand up and be counted, or go thru the Rolodex looking for your lawyer's number before you make a choice?

Things are simpler in the states where I grew up. Maybe not in New York, Jersey, or DC.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 14:01:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Well, he's a recognized as an "Expert witness" in shooting events (LE and civilian) in every court jurisdiction in the country, so in spite of some "holes", his advice about not talking to anyone (except your lawyer) for at least 24 hours is standard for most police officers involved in a shooting.
That's good enough for me.

Good morning "Sinister" Dave...
As to your first question... I doubt it ;)

I got the cloth you sent, thank you.
... very light and thin... do they have it in a multi-colored pattern? I tried to find them on the web, but neither company has a web site.

To training... back in the 40' when we needed riflemen in a hurry... the slack was taken up be high school shooting ranges... and at the time, most EVER high school in the country (even in New Yawk City) had a shooting team, and a range in the basement.

Now they want to ban wooden guns from the JROTC, under some stupid "zero violence tolerance" policy... it goes along with the "Bang, bang, you're dead" training the English military is getting.

Sadly, I don't think this country could fair very well, in a serious, long term ground engagement again... we throw "smart" bombs at them (but now Billy-boy has used up most of them), but the jungles of the South Pacific, or the Ardennes forest... I don't think we'd do to well.
What a tribute to those that gave so much...

Thanks to Clinton, Bradey, Schummer, and the rest, if it ever hits the fan again, we may be forced to use nukes, cuz we have no broad mid-level combat deterrent

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 15:08:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Guys, TRGT is pondering expanding its product line in the future. Right now we are looking at steps that will improve customer service (changing the website over to another ISP, getting a secure server for credit cards, reducing the time it takes to get product out, etc) and inline with this will be a review of our product line. If you reprobates have any ideas let me know via private email. We will keep focused on precision tactical rifle shooting. THings we are looking at would be scope care products, bipods, maybe some camouflage products... who knows. In other words..."What are you having a hard time finding?"

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 15:44:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.180)

After reading that dude's article in the washington compost - that made me just want to train harder and learn more about the sniping skillset. As a matter of fact - just for the benefit of that journalist - I will run an extra mile and spend extra time snapping in.

Kent - and others: Send an announcement to
tactical-announce@aspiringtech.net - There are over 100 tactical shooters subscribed to my list. You have to be a member to post to that list. It's okay to advertise, post events, do market surveys, etc.
If any of youn'z want to subscribe - just send me an email and tell me to add you to that list.

Enjoy!

Ken :)
Ken Hunter <Ken@Hunters.or>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:05:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.13)

Mike: thought you used high tech moly lube on the walker ;-)

Hockeyref: You're a hoot! Wouldn't be if it weren't absolutely true. There's a roast going as we speak (overnight!), but I'm down to "company brew". Barely enough to make it until the next batch comes out. But seriously, in my state, I'm covered legally 100% if I stop to help a cop (via chief of police, handed me a copy of the law). Now, if I saw a BLUE UNIFORM taking fire, I'd help out from whatever vantage I could. Not so on civvie actions! My father, while driving to work (he drives back roads, F-M roads) watched a man and woman open fire. Can't recall now which was shooting at the other. Well, he COULD have jumped out and popped "the bad guy", but didn't KNOW which one was in the right. Shooting in self defense, or murder? So he gets to the nearest phone, dials 911. The police came out there, figured it out, (ready to rock on them) and the MOVIE CREW in the field that he DIDN'T see had a permit! This story gave me real cause to think. Unless it's something that I witness, or I know a participant WELL, I'm gonna let the police take care of it. They're trained for such. As for the blue uniform though, I'd help if I could, and I fear no legal retribution (in my state, I can legally defend others who's "life is in peril" without retribution also).

'Lito: racing for pink slips? LONG time since I've done that! Sign me up too.

Thanks PeteR, I figured it was about that, so a 4" would be fine (2" diameter, well, 1.96...) Truth to tell, I'm as worried about the ARD degrading dawn/dusk light as the longer tube. But it wouldn't have the sewer pipe effect.... Maybe just a veil like Mike had on this 2.5". For those of you that HAVE NOT tried a veil, that was like night and day! I wouldn't have beleived it if I'd not experienced it first hand!

Dave: right on! That's the DCM in a nut shell! AND IT WORKS! As for G. Gordon, I've read every book he's written, and they're ALL great. No matter what anyone of you think on the man, you have to admit that he's a real stand up character!

Mr. Gooch: Good deal with TRGT! As for me, how about some of those nifty textured US GI spray paint cans? And of course a 4+ inch sunshade for the Lupita Mark 4's ;-) Done business with Hugo out before and will again in a heartbeat. You guys make a GREAT logbook!

Stevie: great comic releif. I'm just trying to figure out who's sidekick you are. You're not quite Gabby Hayes, but keep working on it.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
we're racing for pinkslips, so I'm gonna tune 'er up!, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:40:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.254)

I think the whole DR is tired of Steve and I throwing punches, I know I am. I throw the gloves down as of now. Steve, why dont we do our talking via email. You said you have nothing to prove and I have no interests in a war of words. Not my thing. I am sure 20 years in the butts taught you someting, just like 20 behind the rifle taught me a few things. Lets leave it at that.
 

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:44:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

Steve: Mike is a first rate instructor, a spectacular shot, and a sitting duck in a debate over technical trivia. Getting in a flame fight over nothing makes us look childish. Holding a grudge over one makes the holder look weak.

On the multiple firer problem: Addition of probabilities from Stat 101. But it won't work at a mile. There are too many other variables, many of which are dynamic.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 16:45:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.232.95)

On the training the civies issue, I would like to applaud Rod Ryan and SMTC for having the guts and intestinal fortitude to help providing us guys that really are interested in learning the "skill" of long range shooting and not just how to shoot, a place to do so. I called and left a message at another training center on the coast, name not mentioned, and asked why their competition wasn't open to the civies. Needless to say I haven't even had a return phone call.

My two job schedule really looks bad for coming to the Redezvous this year. Not only that, the SORT team that I am on is first call-out during the month of September for Hurricanes and other disaster shit, and I have picked up responsibility for Supervising the Hazmat Decon team at the hospital. Whether I can be there or not, you can bet your anus I'm somehow going to scrape up enough money to at least donate my entry fee. I will do all I can to support those that support us; SMTC, TRGT, the PX and several others.

On the issue of the constant flaming going on lately, what can I say? Nothing! It happens on every message board I visit so I have learned just to ignore it and consider the sources. Most of the time they will just go away if you don't feed them.

As the Goochman says,
BOLT, out!

An the FAL issues, I searched the FAL sites and am as confused as ever on the quality of the various makers. Anyone that owns one that has provided good service please email me.
 

Bolt <reeldoctor@miondspring.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 17:11:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.59.230)

Another datapoint: after precisely zeroing my PSS (from Hell (tm)) at 100 yards with a handload of ACC2520 and 168 MKs at 2650 FPS, I fell back to the 500 yard line and shot a three shot group, which all struck in a 1 MOA group about 1/2 MOA overpoint of aim. This was after comoing up 12 MOA, which is the 500 yard setting on the .30-06 dial. In other words, it seems to be tracking 168s pretty danged well, at least on 90+ degree days. That was pretty neat. Are we getting to the point where we can say that the .30-06 dial is the way to go for our .308 loads on yard ranges? Seems to be the better compromise from what I can tell.
 

Mike and civvies helping out cops:

I like to think of myself as being a pretty standup citizen. One of the ways I act on this is I always eyeball cops and cop cars pretty hard when I spot one on duty, as when doing a traffic stop. I want to try to make sure that all is going well for both the officer and the citizen infvolved. I've known good cops and a couple of duds, too. The former, I am their best friend, the latter, their worst enemy. The former I will do what I can to bail out of a jam, the latter I will volunteer testimony against. Thats just the way that it is, and should be.

However, given the stats on the number of bad cops vs. the number of bad guys on the streets, I am realy more concerned for the officers wellbeing.

-Tom
 

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 18:09:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Jeremy Darnell <mercenary848@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 18:12:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.184)

Hugh <feudist@AOL.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 19:21:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.14)

Glad you're coming to Storm in Sept... we gotta a lotta lies to catch up on ;)

About the '06 cam on the MK4-M3 (sorry for saying "THAT" word)... you are right... it's a dead bang match for the M118-LR load @ 2675/2700, for those that think in yards.

It was cut for the old '06/180 SMK match load that nobody loads anymore, but the 180 SMK with a 13 degree boat tail, is just about an exact BC match for the 175 SMK with the longer 9 degree boattail.
And so the '06 cam tracks the LR load just fine as it has pretty much the same velocity out of a bolt gun of reasonalbe barrel length.

I spoke to John Ruitta at Lupita, last week, about the confusion on these, and their claimed 168/2600 cam for the MK4 (which isn't... it's an exact copy of the old "M118 7.62 NATO" cam, and in meters, though it's marked "YDS"), and he says they've lost track of where the come-ups came from, and are getting a lotta complaints on it... Garth says pretty much the same, and wants some numbers crunched.

Their regular customer service is totally lost on the issue, claiming that it's for the "168/M118 load" WTF??

Bravo...

If the range is in the middle of two clicks, then "Split the clicks"... you don't have to have the cam be "in" the notch... both of the M3's will split a click if necessary, the LR being a bit easier.

Ok, OK... I won't say "CAM" for a month... well maybe a few days ;)

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 20:15:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

SUPER posts on the M-3 turrets, thats the kinda field data this site is all about.
 

I've been working with the new TRGT .300WM data book and been tickled to death (more on this later)in general with it. I wish I'd had the smarts to get one last year before the Carlos II Match.

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 20:37:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.46)

You sir, by your writings and knowledge (especially in the turret cam business) are much more knowledgable and a much more suitable witness than he could ever hope to be.
Like I said about Ayoob- The man talks the talk but can not walk the walk. Period. I actually stated I like some of his points on weapon choices and training, but he is not whom he appears to be.

MicTac <Mictac@AOL.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:06:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.42)

There are skid marks from the car trying to stop from hitting the skunk.
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:09:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.42)

Brian Vice <bvice@mindspring.com>
Moss Point, Mississippi, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:39:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.4.69.26)

Ballistic Cams:

IS IT NOT JUST A REFERENCE POINT?

For instance, in the highpower community where people shoot M1A'a and AR's, the sights are marked like a BDC. What do you do if they don't work perfecty? Change your sights? NO. They are just a reference point. A zero for 500yds could be written as 5+1, or maybe a 600 yard zero could be 6-2. What is all the fuss over? If you think you are going to buy a cam and it is going to be perfect then good luck to you.

If I am totally out of line here please let me know.

Thanks
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 21:58:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.195)

Pablito, try "www.gstreetfabrics.com" . I think that's it. The stuff I sent you is polyester and polyester chiffon in green, OD, and tan.

OK, guys. Quit yacking and arguing and start shooting on the range again. Sound like a buncha little girls or a couple of drunks trying to figure who's the baddest.

Andrew, the Dillon 550 is an excellent machine, but depending on your powder you may have to use a powder tricker, and weigh all your long range (past 600 yards) loads.

Ken, give me a call. Will be at Bragg until late Thursday night.
Dvae Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 23:04:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Your statement is quite true: some folks here have obsessed here about how well what bullet tracks with what "cam". Indeed some have missed the point that *no* cam is going to adequatly track any given load perfectly under all conditions. You are correct in saying that it is just a reference. However, that does not mean that trying to match the best cam avialable to a given load is a useless activity. Sometimes you might be in a hurry or you might forget all that business of puttin' on four MOA up from your 200 yard zero to get your 500 yard zero, but only if its a hot day, uh, "lights up, sights up", uh, what was the range again? I contend that there are occasions wher you might do best to simply line up the number "5" on the cam and shoot the thing. If it hits .5 MOA high (as in my case with the 168s), then thats just tough. I doubt your target will know the difference in most cases. I suspect that such a quick and dirty reference can be a handy thing at times. This is what makes the M3 system such a good idea in my book: the fact that you are neither commited to a pure cam nor are you stuck with an awkward, slow, ultra-fine adjustment system as with the M1.
 
 

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 00:04:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Patron Dave: What, you mean you didn't want to live that Rodney Dangerfield bit from Caddy Shack? As rifle barrels make nice lightning rods, I'm glad you're not "fried Dave".

Andrew: Patron Dave is entirely correct. Get a good powder and go to it! My loads (with me shooting) weren't THAT much different than Patron Mike shooting my rifle with Fed GM2. Mine were done on a progressive too. 1000 rounds in 3 hours at Fed GM2 accuracy is sure sweet!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
trying to decide what to experiment with next (beer wise) in the, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 00:15:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.202)

Some clown mentioned this last year.

The response that the "GOD of Leupold BDC Dials" gave back then went something like,

If that is your definition of close enough, you would finish last in every tactical match I ever shot in.....

I wonder what has changed between then and now?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., walking off into the sunset in his big floppy shoes, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 00:35:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.39)

I feel that what I said is true by the narrow set of parameters I provied: a close-enough cam may suffice for a quick shot under time pressure under field conditions under some circumstances. If somebody else said that it would be inadequate under another set of circumstances ie, those related to a tactical match of some sort or under another specific set of field conditions, I will not attempt to refute that as I am not qualified to do so. They may well be right. I asked if there was a concensus forming. I was not stating that one had in fact formed and I suspect now that one has not formed as of yet. I would not (and have not) drawn any broad conclusions based on a handful of posts here. Therfore, I would contend that no gloating on your part is called for at this time.
 

-Tom

Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 01:43:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Comedy relief: "concensus of opinion as to the possibility" sounds a LOT like the folks talking about the monsters at the edge of the flat Earth. When I've got hard numbers, I'll let you know. When you get one of these scopes, let me know.

As I sit down to a dinner of burros (that's a Arizona border town name) I say to myself "God Bless Bruce Robinson!".
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Southern Utah, where the wind is bad, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 01:48:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.212)

"Well, well, well."... Well, well, well???

Even my 8 year old son doesn't talk like that... he says it's "Baby talk!"

There may be a "concensus of opinion" as to the possibility of using the 3006-180-2700 dial as a substitute for the 175 grain load at the same velocity."

But... the concensus is between Mike and me...

Sorry to be so long in answering, but if some "clown" mentioned this last year, I can't find it.

Perhaps you can tell me where it is?

You ARE, of course, coming to Storm, and bringing bullets for your gun???

'lito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 04:05:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

This would be the scope I throw onto that 300WinMag I mentioned last week that is on my shopping list.

Comments can be sent to my email or here, I'll check both. Thanks for any thoughts you have on the price.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Where a person just 45minutes south of me was recently given a 2 year sentence for sheepdippin! NO JOKE! Ca., USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 08:58:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.68)

You gonna' use a 300 win on gound rats??

The $680 is a very good for a nib M3-LR if it has mildots.
It DOES need tapered bases, the MK4-M3 needs flat bases.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 09:45:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)

Reason for getting the mag? I just want to get something to make me flinch! heh

No, it stems back from the Emails I shot off to you an a few others about 9 months back. I'm interested in stretching my skills out over the foothills around my parts. Colinga is about 2 hours away from me and word is that is a 1500 yard range. I've always been a boomer but with the way Ca. started playing their hand I had to get my semiauto line up organized before they got their way. Now that that is said and done, I'm onto the more elegant non-toy stuff.

The one thing that will dictate whether I get this gun or not is when the CHP division gets back to me on whether they are gonna follow the background investigators recommendation for hire and give me a class date. If I get a class date of August then I'm not going to put money into a gun that I won't see for 6 months except for on the rare weekend liberty. If they give me a November class date I very well might step into a 300WienerMag Sendero to help pass the time.

B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 10:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.1.68)

Steve
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 14:36:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.208)

Pablito, I hope to go to Storm this year, but I have not worked out the details yet. (Does not look like any interesting side wagers to finace my trip) Either way I say this to anyone thinking about going. Storm Mountain is an excellent place. Rod runs a great school and the events is worth the cost. Now if I could just convince my ex that I should not have to pay child support that month.LOL

Well, my new HS Precision 338 Lapua cames this week end. I have a US Optics SN 3 to put on it as soon as I get some screws that fit the action. They use the 8x40 size and all my mounts have the little screws in them. Looks like a week before I can shoot it. JR, it certainly is pretty. It is sitting in the safe torturing me right now.LOL

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, July 17, 2000 at 15:18:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.68)