June 1999

To all:
Anyone interested in a long-range shooting classes in SW Oklahoma Email me or look in the emporium.

Thanks

Bruce Hilsabeck

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton, Oklahoma, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 01:26:27 (ZULU)

500,000 Purple Hearts were ordered for the Invasion of Japan and were not used.

Korean War Awards: Again, due to the decentralization of awards, exact
numbers of medals awarded for the Korean War cannot be established.
There were approximately 33,600 fatal and 103,200 non-fatal casualties
during this period.

Vietnam Era Awards: Awards for this period fall into two categories:
awards for wounds received in the Vietnam Theatre of Operations
(Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos) and other geographical areas, including
the attack on the USS Pueblo, the Dominican Republic, and Cuba.
 Approximately 200,700 Purple Hearts were awarded during this period.

Now take 500,000 -200,700 -103,200 -33,600 that leaves approximately 162,500 left over to cover Panama, Grenada, The Gulf War, and fatal and non-fatal wounds arising as a
result of peacekeeping efforts such as Lebanon, Haiti, Somalia, and
Bosnia-Croatia.
I don't figure that they used them all up yet. And I hope they never do!
 
 
 
 

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 02:17:37 (ZULU)

Duthman named McNabb! I'd bet on something. I'd bet it's harder to teach those boys how to read a map than it is to teach them how to shoot. What is your take on that? I've seen some guys who can stalk and shoot a little but I've not seen many that can read a map.
 
 
 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 04:06:37 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 05:09:18 (ZULU)

All: Since McNab is shooting TOW's, this makes him a ....... well, anyone? Scott? A TARGET, very good boys and girls!

:-))

Take care all! I'll see you at SMTC.

Stefan
 
 

Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 09:03:53 (ZULU)

Thanks in advance.
Buk

Off Subject, but about Veterans kinda
Saw Starship Troopers last eve. In that timeframe you had to be a Veteran
to become a citizen and earn the right to vote, or go into politics. Hmmm....

Heres to our brethern that came home whole, partially, or not at all.
You may not ever be fully appriciated, but you will be remembered.
Charles Bukowski <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
HumidCity, Louisiana, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 11:46:47 (ZULU)

Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 12:46:28 (ZULU)

anyone in Chicago that could help me get from the Airport were I´ll be tommorow at 2 pm to Decatur ??? Train ?

Thanks
 

Torsten <lasercon@dialup.globe.de>
Germany - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 16:29:17 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 20:53:55 (ZULU)

I havent read that particular book, but I do enjoy collecting,shooting and restoring old Battle rifles. To give you an honest answer, they dont shoot quite as well as the more modern guns, and they are not as user friendly, the stocks on most were not made for scope usage. You will also spend a little bit of money getting them set up for scope sights. All of my old rifles will shoot about 3 inch groups at 200 yards with good handloads but no better. The best of the lot seems to be the M-96 Swede, after that there is little to choose between the 03 Springfields, the 98 Mausers, and the M-39 Moisin Nagant. The No4 Enfield is right behind the others. They are not 1000 yard guns, but you can let someone know that they are not exactly safe, even at that distance, if you know what you are doing.
Always remember, even a blind pig finds a acorn now and then.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 21:26:02 (ZULU)

My only point was that I think that if you hunt, you should be good at making good clean kills. Many, possibly most, hunters are not, and I think that's a shame.

Regarding PD hunting, if you need to do it for "pest control" fine, but I feel that when you hunt PDs at 1000-2000 yards, you are just playing random chance with an animal. It is very unlikely that any hit on a PD at 1500 yards is anything but luck. Is that hunting? or just target shooting?

If you want to see if you can hit something at that distance, use a target of some sort. Shootin' PDs at that range just seems questionable to me. Sorry if you don't agree. But then you don't have to worry about me taking up your favorite super-long-ranged PD area either.

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 22:00:59 (ZULU)

First of all, I certainly do not want to step on anyone's toes.

However, I respectfully submit that the long range hunting thread that has been running for the last week has become more of a personal opinion soapbox on ethics, than anything else. Therfore, I request that you please take this discussion off-list.

Just to clarify, this is not an issue about to whom's opinions I subscribe, but rather a matter of respect to the many loyal readers of the roster.

It it not my intent to quell free speach, however if everyone voiced our opinions... the exceptional content that we see here would be quickly drowned-out by off-topic subjects and wars of personal opinion.

Thank you

B. Hancock <Ghent@msn.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Tuesday, June 01, 1999 at 22:55:31 (ZULU)

Lighten up guy's yer gonna pull sumthin'
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 01:11:44 (ZULU)

We Oppress Liberals
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 04:14:47 (ZULU)

Thanks, Brian
Brian Heiter <heiterman@qnet.com>
Bishop, CA, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 06:24:42 (ZULU)

Some how,I'm not sure why,I must have logged onto "Gopher Country" or the "Exaggerated Hunting Story" web site.

All kidding aside, thread is getting mighty old and its not hard to see where this thing is going to end up... you guessed it right, lots of personal insults and tons of bitching and whining to go with it.

Gentlmen,please lets stay on topic and don't write comments to anyone that you wouldn't be afraid to tell them to their face in person.

PLEASE conduct yourselves in a manner that will not hurt the professional integrity of this fine web site.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 10:43:33 (ZULU)

Contact Robar Industries for a modification for your PSS to M-14 mags. They work very well. I have seen a couple of guys at my last unit have it done and the job was fantastic. I think it costs around 300 or so. Requires their special trigger guard and floor plate assembly, also the mags take a slight modification.

Paul D in Denver,

The size groups you mentioned with M118 through a PSS is no real surprise. I have seen several PSSs not shoot the ammo that well. IT's the ammos fault as M118 SB is not a good precision load. In fact in lots made in 1989, some were rejected and tests had to be run at Quantico, VA by SOTIC, Navy, and USMC personnel to prove that was the case. Whole lots were withdrawn. Additionally, 1991 had some bad accuracy lots.

One of the major reasons that the REAL M-24 (with a 1:11.25" barrel twist) shoots it well is because the gun was specially twisted for the 173 grain projectile. Part of it is barrel quality also. The PSS shoots well enough but the barrrels on those guns are not of high quality. They tend to be real foulers unless they are well broken in (following benchrest shooters breakin procedures). Hammer forged barrels foul badly. When the Remington custom shop switched from the Rock barrel on the M-24 to their hammer forged barrel, we noticed several things instantly. They got hot faster, fouled with copper faster, groups opened up faster without cleaning and they wore out faster. Hope this helps you out. Take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 12:56:53 (ZULU)

Jeff,
Point taken, but long range shooting is long range shooting, be it varmints or targets. I have said it before and so has Bill R. there are varmint hunters out there that have forgot more about long range shooting and stalking and camo than a lot of people will learn in a life time.

Paul,
I didn't quite have as bad of luck with the 118 that you did but its not "Match" ammo by any streatch of the imagination. I am sure you rifle is fine it just doesn't like that ammo. Would you belive I have a custom 308 that does "Not" like Federal Match!!!!

To All,
I have a friend who is wanting to buy the new Bushnell 1000yd range finders any comments on them pro or con??? His other choice is the Nikon 800 he now has a pair of Bushnell 800s but wants to up grade, any comments would sure be appreciated.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 13:14:58 (ZULU)

Let me tell you all this giving of crap just shuts down communication and people just stop asking or making suggestions. I mention a guy doing extreme range shooting and it is an exagerated hunting story. I know the guy and if he said so it happened.
Now lets get back to working on real problems like Savage versus Norinco or something of equal importance.

I'm sorry just a bit miffed that someone with obviously no idea can push the party line down my throat. I dont remmeber asking for opinions just talked about someone shooting at long range and thought we could learn something from the discussion.

Dude with the one sided camo crack. I have a special sling for you a combo of Camo, Prairie Dog and Tree Hugger. LOL is that light enough for you with all the funny I can muster right now.
 

Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 14:41:49 (ZULU)

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 16:27:37 (ZULU)

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
B.C.,, Canada - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 19:05:47 (ZULU)

more serious now....
To B.Rogers; The map reading is not the real big problem with our guys, cause as soon as they get into our army they are being taught map reading from day one, and the guys that become snipers are mostly the ones who are the "better" military men... we just keep them up to date and progress some extra new stuff like transferring compas angles to map angles and vice versa and putting some call for fires on maps, they are actually quite good at it, and as you say, the shooting aint the problem either, the ones that we get alrdy are good shots, cus they have to pass a intest to be allowed into the sniper program, and when they do get in, they still have to clear the 5 week shooting course, if they fail that one most of them become machine gunners instead of snipers, hehehe
Our problems lay more with the fact that we dont have many farm boys in our country, know what i mean?
Most soldiers are from the city over here and the farm boys we do have know every thing bout cows but nothinh bout the fields....
So our "big" problem is with over anxious snipers, they tend to stalk to "fast", take the shot to fast or cant stay laying still fore more then 1/2 an hour (exagerating hehe).
Got any adive or excercises we might not have tried on them yet?

Nec Temere Nec Timide.

McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 19:23:10 (ZULU)

Anyone have any good or bad exp. with Choate Sniper stock?
I dont expect the quality of a Macmillian or such, but am working on a budget.

Pros/Cons?

Mike the Un,
Got any pix of sling (promise not to copy) Just want to see before ordering.

Thanks,
buk
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Damnitshot Downin, Louisiana, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 20:08:36 (ZULU)

http://www.mwgco.com

Darren...
Semper FI
Darren <darren@nimbusconsulting.com>
S.F., Ca, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 20:20:46 (ZULU)

Thanks!
Tim Crabb <tbcrabb@mindspring.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 20:28:49 (ZULU)

Why don't you try an application of heat. Perhaps 5-10 seconds of propane torch on each side will do it. If they are now using Loctite®, then acetone or lacquer thinner won't work. Let us know the results.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 21:36:01 (ZULU)

To loosen the grip of LocTite, you can use a soldering iron to release the adhesive. Careful now, it won't take much to do the job. Just touch the hot iron to the screw for a few seconds, and it should loosen up for you. Same trick works for loosening Epoxy.

Best Regards,
 
 

BillB <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 22:08:51 (ZULU)

I got some data tables from Trigger today. WOW! They are already in my drag bag and testing will soon follow. Lots of work by Dean guys very well thought out.

I have my stock pile of ammo for the testing of Jerry Rices, HS and McMillans rifles. The rifles should be here in a few weeks. I have several folks who have promised to help

As to Prairie Dogs. I say as the Ravin "Never more" to that conversation.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 22:26:39 (ZULU)

Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 23:04:35 (ZULU)

This will undoubtedly lead to a contentious public debate on the merits of ruby slippers vs. blue pumps.

;)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 23:13:58 (ZULU)

thanks
ted gray <tgray36@aol.com>
kennesaw, ga, USA - Wednesday, June 02, 1999 at 23:40:56 (ZULU)

Dave: are you expecting us to believe that Mr.Jarrett got that kinda range out of a pair of ghillied emerald slippers?? AND only 3 clicks of the heel? Give us a break already!! It was more than likely PD hide hiking boots.

MikeM: I have the same request. Are there any pictures available of your slings? I've heard nothin but good and am gonna buy in the very near future. Can you make me one of those special slings.. trimmed out in liberal democrat? Naahh.. nevermind that shade of yellow will clash and probably flinch with every round.

Anyone:
I'm in the market to purchase a Leupold M3 with mildot.. Does anyone know of a supplier who stocks em?
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton/Ft.Sill, Oklahoma, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 03:46:11 (ZULU)

To those I'm gonna see at SMTC: See you at SMTC!! (Whoa, that was a giveaway... :-))

Videre vincere est!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 08:35:22 (ZULU)

The "ladies" Welcome you back, you have been missed.

Dave in Ok
Dave Martin <theopair@yahoo.com>
Ok, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 13:04:14 (ZULU)

James J,
Welcome back you old bandit!! Where have you been hiding?? Sounds as though your moving back in time with the 45-70, maybe you clicked those heels to hard escaping Kansas(HA)

James C,
You don't want to crimp rounds for match ammo, it is not conducive to accuracy.Just my opinion on it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 13:16:06 (ZULU)

When we start talking about shooting at distances over 1000yds.(or 1000m) the 308 falls out of the picture, and cartridges like the .338 Lapua Magnum and the big .50 are mentioned. One topic I do not remember being discussed that much is keeping the velocity of one's shots as even as possible (that is having the Standard Deviation of the velocity of the fired shots as low as possible). At great distances, this even-ness is important for accuracy. The Finnish Army has found that one way of doing this is by using so called "front ignition" or "center ignition" in the .338 Lapua. This means that the brass has a short "tube" extending from the flashhole to the center of the cartridge, where ignition will then take place. This , supposedly,will ensure a more even ignition and velocity. The concept is not new - legendary Elmer Keith experimented with this when the majority of us readers here were not even born.
Commercial .338 Lapua brass does not heve this feature.
It would be interesting to hear comments and opinions about velocity variations in different cartridges/loads and its effect on accuracy at long range.

Hans <vasa@hhcn.prn.bc.ca>
B.C.,, Canada - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 14:06:47 (ZULU)

The Steyr 15.2mm gun uses the flash tube ignition system also. You're right about the differnt locations being an effect on the velocity. Another action that occurs and is proven in ammo test conducted by the Match ammmunition branch at Crane naval weapons center is the location of the powder.

For example, With A191 (military .300 magnum load) With a charge of 70.6 grains of RE19 the velocity was 2964 fps with the powder poitioned at the primer (done by standing the cartridge on end then loading it in the gun). With the powder positioned at the bullet, the velocity with the same load is 2946 fps. Not much of a difference. But with a load of 68 grains of 7828 the velocity with the powder at the primer was 3041 and at the bullet was 2951. That difference is enough for about 2 minutes of angle at the target at any range.

Compressed loads cut down greatly on velocity deviation as well as good primers. The Federal 215 M is what Dakota uses in their cartridge load. That gun/load combination stayed easily under 1 MOA out to 1600 yards at which point, under those environmental conditions I was shooting in, the bullet began trans-sonic flight. 75 yards past trans-sonic range, the long bullets destabilized too easily (as do all long bullets) and keyholed 40% of the time.

Also bullet runout has a great deal to do with extreme range accuracy. Bullets with .003" runout keyholed about 75 yards sooner than bullets with .001" or less runout, that never keyholed. By my definition extreme range shooting is pushing your range to the distance at which the bullet begins trans-sonic flight. AFter the transition to sub-sonic velocities, most (not all) bullets arenet' flying predictable anymore.

The trick is calculating at what range the bullet is going to begin it's trans-sonic flight, it can be done, and it is not that hard. Example: At sea level standard conditions. a good shooting .50 caliber rifle is good for precision to about 1450 meters with Greentip or "Raufoss" ammunition, however, that same load at 2500' above sea level (under the standard pressures and temps for that elevation) the bullet is super-sonic for 1650 meters.

I have the data tables and an instruction book that I wrote on this method and it is well proven. Mike the Undude and Bruce, Old Dog have a set, ask them. Anyone interested, contact me at my email address, or of course fire away on this site. Let's stow the PD shooting ethics and talk some sniper stuff for a while. Thanks for being patient with the long winded reply.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 14:22:24 (ZULU)

I have a reloading question or questions for you. I have a savage 110 fpl in 30-06 and I am trying to get some info on the .30-06 Ackly Imp. I would like to know what kind of increase in vel. to expect, how it would be likly to affect acc. and, what kind of case life to expect. Also with the 1:10 twist barrel would I be able to shoot the 190 and 200gr. bullets.
 

thanks
Daniel
Daniel <hinesd@gators.net>
lacrosse, fl, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 15:53:49 (ZULU)

Whenever possible I try to use benchrest primers (Federal). If the primer starts the powder burning at one small source the
burn will be more even and consistent than if the powder is ignited with a large source. Therefore I use magnum primers only
when consistent ignition cannot be achieved and in that situation I'll try to find a powder that will light consistently with the BR
primers.

Stay Safe!!
Depity Dave <dprolls@access.mountain.net>
Wild, wonderful, West Virginia, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 16:00:25 (ZULU)

Re: 91 & PSG

An opinion. Lots of money for both of these weapons. The PSG is a superb weapon, but, in my view, way too much $$ for doing nothing more than a good Rem 700 dressed will do. Neither of the weapons you asked about are well balanced nor do they carry well. As a former operational sniper in both jungle and urban environments. In the field, I wanted a weapon I could carry comfortably. At matches or in an urban environment or mechanized environment, it is not so much a factor. Perhaps if you identified your environment and your mission assignment parametersm, some of the other guys on-site could better advise you.

De Oppresso Liber
Bravo 52 Actual
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenx, NM, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 16:09:51 (ZULU)

[This is already longer than it needs to be, eh?] A word on good shit. Since dropping by this list, I have met and done business with 3 guys here. MikeM, Bill Wylde, and Trigger. I have bought probably a dozen slings from MikeM, some for my guns, some for gifts to shooting buddies. I paid the old cop retail, and it was money well spent. These things just flat work. Forget the pics, dig out a dead president or 3 and order you one...you will never remember what you paid. The Wylde AR15 needs no sales job from this Indiana boy. If you read shooting magazines, you know Bill is at the top of the shooting game. The guns I have from him are just so superior to anything else I have owned in that caliber that they are hard to do justice with in words. One helluva gun builder.

The data tables I got from Trigger just arrived this week, and I have not had much free time. From thumbing through the 40+ page instruction book, and glancing at the data tables for all sorts of rounds out of the 308, 300win, 338 lapua, and 50...all I can say is, wow. If you want to find inch deflections for wind from 2 to 20 mph, from 100yard / feet to 1000...it is all there. Slope angles, headwind / crosswind, swept space on rising / falling ground, ballistic data for different rounds at differing fps, corrections for air temps, even theodolite range finding, on and on and on....Really amazing stuff.

Guess this turned into a bit of horn blowing, flag waving, thank you giving to several guys who build fun stuff for shooters. I hope nobody considers this wasted bandwidth...

Old [now winded] dog.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 16:10:27 (ZULU)

And yes, as a hunter, I DO think that it is a bit unethical just to go out taking pot shots at an animal that you have no real interest in. If you want to kill it, then kill it, but trying to give it dirt poisoning from all of your missed rounds kicking up dust is just rediculous. And if it's a macho thing, believe me, making consistant kills at 400-600 yards is far more impressive that making occasional hits at 1000. And considering all the luck involved at 1500...

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 16:28:29 (ZULU)

Thanks to those that helped.
 

See some of you on Monday at SMTC.

"Ende"

Torsten <torstenerning@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 16:47:30 (ZULU)

re. the Remington 788 action. Did you look in the HotTips section? Just the other day I added the archives for December 1998, and there was a lot of discussion on it. Take a look.

James Jarret,
glad to see you back. Your knowledge, insight and well-written posts hav ebeen missed.

All,
hopefully the little skirmish on long-range "hunting/shooting/target practice/whatever-you-want-to=call-it" is over now, and we can get back to business again.

Re. HotTips,
as mentioned above I've added the archives for December 1998, and am busy with January 1999. It will hopefully be up before the end of the weekend. After that I'll keep a little bit of a low profile again as we're busy packing to move to a new house in two or three weeks. After that, depending how busy Scott and other reviewers keep me, I'll do some more updates.

All SMTC coursers, hope you enjoy it. I'd like to see reviews from the foreign contingent to get their perspective as well.

Take care

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
Pretoria, RSA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 18:20:50 (ZULU)

Semper Fi to all my fellow Marines, and a heartfelt Thank You to ALL who have taken fire in foreign lands in defense of our great country. I'm anxiously awaiting the responses to my gasoline-thrown-on-the-fire comments...
RotorHead <Cantsay@work.com>
PA, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 19:34:09 (ZULU)

Torsten
I would really have liked to pick you up at the airport and drive you to Decatur but you posted your message late. I read your message three hours before your plane landed in Chicago.
Bob <rvl@inil.com>
USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 19:44:21 (ZULU)

Extra $$$ for the PSG-1 buys you

1) Heavy Barrel
2) Fixed scope mount
3) Lighted scope with charger
4) Nice, but flimsy carrying case
5) "Swiss-made" tripod
6) PSG-1 Forearm (available ~$180)
7) PSG-1 Grip (available ~$100)
8) PSG-1 Buttostock (available ~$500)
9) PSG-1 Trigger (available ~$400)
10) Two steel reinforcement ribs welded onto receiver
11) Foward assist

When I write "available" that means you can buy it
and put it on a 91. HK can and will put a SR-9
polygonal-rifled barrel on a 91 for a price, but
not the PSG-1 or MSG-90 barrel. Bummer.

Lou S
 
 
 

Lou S <spunkbubble@juno.com>
S. Fla., USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 20:58:24 (ZULU)

Thanks for the insight on using M118SB in PSS's.
I thought I was losing my touch. The rest of my 118SB will be used for position practice and barrel breakin. Better start making my own loads, unfortunately the supplies of match components have dried up many months ago round here.
Well, guess I'm gonna have ta dig up one of my caches - now where be my compass.

Spin drift: in a 308, it comes into play around 500m, .1 mil. At 1000m the spin drift is .4 mil. Thats what I learned anyways.
 
 

Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 21:13:41 (ZULU)

Thanks for the kind offer,

I took a bus which was the easiest way of getting to decatur without having to go cross town with 150 lbs of guns and ghillies.

the company then picked me up in bloomington.

the way it looks i,ll take the buss back to o Hare on Suday morning and be there sometime around noon for my flight to Washington.
 

Thanks again

T
Torsten <torstenerning@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 21:38:08 (ZULU)

hehehehe
Any way, stefan, by know you know there might be a 1 to 1000 chance that i will be allowed by my commander to join you to smtc, so who knows, we might be crawling on our belly's togehter in west-virginia..
Probably not, because of my stand-by period...bummer.
So if im not allowed, then ill speak to you tommorow before you leave to the USA, if thats the case, then the best of luck to ya, m8!

To Torsten; Hi there, i am Stefan's friend the Dutch sarge who might be able to get you and your mcmillan .50 on our rifle range "harskamp"
to shoot at 800 meters, my commander is very positiv to the subject, only the problem is that the "harskamp" people want to know how far your bullets fly, all goto do with security because the range is situated in a over populated area, but if they ok the thing, than we'll have a interesting day, because our snipers are very interested to see your .50 and you ofcourse will be allowed to shoot our .338 accuracy's, so maybe ill see you soon in the netherlands, untill then , have a great time in SMTC and say hi to stefan from me when you see him there.

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
nl - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 21:57:35 (ZULU)

Nec Temere Nec Timide
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
nl - Thursday, June 03, 1999 at 22:13:25 (ZULU)

About gyroscopic precession...

Spindrift is a by-product of gyroscopic precession caused by a right hand twist of a rifled barrel. It occurs the same in left twist barrels except the bullet drift is to the left. A bullet exits the bore a tremendously high RPM. In fact, the bullet rides on a column of air as it travels downrange. In military circles, current writings on this subject treat it very lightly. Granted, most military sniping ranges are at ranges where bullet drift is of little consequence. The point of these technical corrections is that a bullet technically will not fly to the exact place you point a barrel. For our purposes, we require a two-minute of angle shot group standard when the shooter is combined with the weapon and ammunition. When you get to ranges past 550 meters, this 2 MOA circle is larger than a human torso. As a result, any correctable condition such as spindrift is required for a higher pH / PK We cannot accept initial errors in our sight adjustment hoping that MET and ENV conditions will be favorable or forgiving. Because they are not.

More later.. out of time..Take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 00:00:25 (ZULU)

gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 01:28:06 (ZULU)

I was wondering if any of you where I might be able to buy a few yards of Gore-Tex? And Gore seam tape? I was thinking of lining one of my faorite cammo jackets with Gore-Tex. Or do any of you know of a person or shop who can do this for me? Thanks in advance. I know this is not exactly sniping related but I figured someone might know.
Theo
Theo Martin <MrF2@aol.com>
Clackamas, OR, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 02:06:15 (ZULU)

I would recommend checking out Mike the Undude's sling... he sent me a sample to try out and it's the best thing out there, for carrying and for using. I understand some modifications are on the way also. Look up a few lines and his email address is posted here somewhere, if you can't find it,, email me and i'll give it to you.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 02:48:22 (ZULU)

Jeeze! Sorry if I stressed anyone! ooops :-)

Is that better oh liberator of the oppressed :-)

The old poop,
Gooch
gooch <pte00791@mail.wvnet.edu>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 04:04:47 (ZULU)

definitely a "shoot and scoot" situation due to the relatively close proximity of engagement. None of my adversaries had air capability so the steep terrain and double or triple canopy cover helped during exit. The importance of terrain selection to create sonic bounce to defeat human sonar directional capabilities made the importance of "one shot, one kill" paramount. Occasionally, "one shot, no kill" meant go to ground, withdraw or, sometimes run like hell. You are no good to yourself, your teammate(s), or your unit and country if the bad guys wrap you up because you don't know when to quit.

None of us were Gunny Hathcock. He was special. Rather like Michael Angelo as an artist. The rest of us were competent mechanics. The most important life-saving and mission success lesson I learned early on was to appreciate and recognize my abilities, but to operate within my limitations.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 05:28:18 (ZULU)

Found a source for binders that will just fit the data book. The company is Raine, Inc. in Anderson, IN 46013 (no street address given). Their web site is WWW.raineinc.com and the e-mail address is rainemail@raineinc.com.

I bought the #033N Covered Notebook and it just fits the pages in the data book. It also has pockets for Mil Dot Masters, etc. Comes in Camo, black and Desert and has a zipper closure and is covered in cordura.

Gooch, you may want to look at these as an addition to your very fine project.
Sandy <shiftysand@aol.com>
Florence, KY, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 12:10:31 (ZULU)

Thought inquiring minds would want to know...

Also Lady on the phone (didnt remember name) was VERY nice, professional,
and pleasant to work with.

My scope should be in today. My thanks goes out to this sight and the reviews
that helped me make my decision.

buk
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Sweatinmyassoff in, Louisiana, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 12:11:34 (ZULU)

To all,
Hey guys how about the range finder question??? Anybody have any good or bad on the Bushnell 1000 or the Nikon 800???
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 14:16:41 (ZULU)

Just my two cents. Sorry, don't have a source for the raw materials.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 15:13:58 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 16:26:51 (ZULU)

JFD
JFD <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, TX, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 17:08:35 (ZULU)

Yeh, I learned all that
Jim <www.JR600YDS@aol.com>
Miami, FL, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 17:12:48 (ZULU)

Yeh, I learned all that "Spin Drift" gyro rotation whatever stuff. Kept it right up their with the space time continuum theory as refferenced to the black hole event horizon. Didn't understand it then sure don't now. Fact is at rifle range it's not the earths rotation that causes a miss, more than likely its the wind. Best advise, Forget it let the artillery worry about it. Maybe an air strike? Seldom did we take a shot over 600 meters.

By the way sounds like we have some common friends. May have even worked the same AO

Keep shooting---Jim
Jim <JR600YDS@aol.com>
Miami, FL, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 17:13:30 (ZULU)

I am off to pick up Stephan this afernoon. I'll look for the guy with the dutch beer in his hand. There BETTER be a beer in his hand or he is WALKING!

Glad to see everyone is keeping the roster going. I have more or less taken a break from it for the spring/summer. I just can't sit still long enough to read it all! Too many undiscovered roads to travel on the GPz! Love this weather! Any other bikers out there torn between shooting and riding?
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 17:29:59 (ZULU)

I have said it before and I will say it again. One minute left on my sites to compensate for spin drift not wind, at 600 yards. I do not worry about it and 200 and 300 yards. Dean's tables account for it and corrections are formulated starting at 500 yards(M24). I may be wrong but I have done so for years. Some old High Power Shooter said to do it and it has worked for me for years. No matter who agrees with or disagrees with me I plan on keeping the correction.

Interesting thing on tables. I carry two sets with me now and feel they work well together. I use the TRGY Tables. They keep an excellent record of my rifle under similar conditions and give a great deal of information. I use Deans for very detailed information and for unknown distance shooting. They both really have thier stuff tied tight. Buy at least one set of each guys. They will save you many times the cost in waisted time and ammo tring to come up with the same info. My only problem is all the work I did I just threw away because I like this combo better.

Slings: I am told PX, Storm and TRGT should have photos soon. Which ones take credit cards I am not sure of./ Contact them for info. I make them and sell them to them. If you have any complaints though go to me first. I will make it right.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 17:37:48 (ZULU)

being only a Milan 1980 Meter tank sniper I always wanted to play with a TOW ! Have just purchased a TOW lower unit for my Kraka.
Any info on a TOW mock up, or used covers etc ???
.50 Monolithic max range is like all other .50's if you can shoot 338 we should get by with the .50 ?? Look forward to play with the .338, I might bring a instructor from Hammelburg with a G22 with me if that is OK ?

See you in Harskamp !

Gore tex !

I would also go with the liner jackets or shirts, is a lot more versitile, and even the goretex will not breathe like cotton so in a no rain, but high activety situation you will be glad to get rid of you sweat barrier. Also Gore tex needs a temerature diffrence between the sides to work right. I will never again buy Gore tex lined boots for the above reason, I'm much better of with a Membrane liner sock in a regular boot that still breathes and lets your feet dry. I get blisters a lot faster when I hike in my Goretex lined Meindel's than in the unlined pair of the same style and size.
 

Scott,

I can always drop Stefan of on half the way to SMTC if the beer isnt any good, or we could raid his tent !!!! Well maybee not he,s armed !

Sitting here in Decatur and learning Cryogenic's so that I may return the Ice age to Germany.

"Ende"

T

Torsten <torstenerning@hotmail.com>
freezing my Mausers off in Decatur, IL, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 18:06:15 (ZULU)

If your scope is aligned with the center of your bore through the manditory
ring lapping, everything should be in the 10 ring...

That is of course if shooting pdogs or kittens at 2500 yards...

or is that meters...damn there goes another good theory...

buk out
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Wadingingators, Louisiana, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 18:43:57 (ZULU)

To Theo Martin; In the Dutch ARMY we are issued a camo jacket which has a removable gortex-liner which can be used in any other jacket.I've used it for 9 years now and as Pat says, its use is very tactical because there is no noise as with gortex jackets like the one's GI's are issued, and it will keep you dry and works even better if you treat the camo jacket with a rain-repulsent(is this spelled wright, hehe? US CAVALRY imports them many times from holland, so you can order them there if you want.

To Jarrett; Thank you too, for your reaction on the spindrift, but about the distance of where to shoot from i tend to disagree, we teach our guys also to try to take the shot at about 600 meters, any further will make it harder to get a "one shot one kill" especially when wind is a factor, but we do think you always should try to use your long range advantage over assault weapons and i think 300 and 400 meters is cutting it a bit close, because now a days even the assault weapons have optics which make them great adversary's at those distances.
Dont get me wrong, im not trying to be disrespectfull, i read that you tried and tested it in actual combat, so i know you are a person who knows what he is talking about (especially since you are still alive,hehe) it is just that i would like to get some more info about the situations when those shots were taken at those short distances (terrain, enemy nr's, time, wheater conditions,what kind of support at hand, etc etc)
Thanks in advance, and yes, knowing how hard it is -stalking,-shooting under stress,-keeping your head clear, gunny H not only was an artist, he was God in a ghillie-suit!
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
nl - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 19:03:37 (ZULU)

To Pat; i know a dutch civilian shooter who uses the bushnell and he is very fond of it but says he tends to get no further ranges then 500/600meters, and thats with good wheater and clear contrasted targets... hope you can use this info.

To Dave; Yes, if you are a civilian out for a walk or out hunting Prairy dogs at 2500miles (hehe thats my contribution to the "to shoot or not to shoot PD's, thats the question" nutters discusion), then you are better of using a outer skin based gortex jacket, but if you dont want to be compromised by ak waving enemy's or binoc's waving SMTC spotters, then you are way better of using a cloth jacket with a inner gortex-liner.

To JIM; Again, also not to you am i trying to be disrespectfull, but read Jarrets article again more carefully and you'd see that earth"s rotation has got nothing to do with "drift" but the rifling of a gun does!!
It defenatly cant be put in the same category as" do aliens exist? are there ufo's?", drift does affect your bullets.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 19:37:08 (ZULU)

I don't like to get into war stories, so my comments were conceptual re: spindrift and real time engagement distances. I worked exclusively in I Corp in the Highlands and across the fence mostly west and some north. Consequently, my acquisition zones were extremely terrain and cover congested. I had to close to 300-600m. As Mike or Jim observed, 600m is the ideal minimum distance, but it just didn't work for me in my AOs and under my mission directives. Project Delta normally did not support mainline unit ops as part of an integrated force multiplier like my brother snipers attached to regular Army and Marine units. As a spec ops, our missions were assigned by another entity, and dreamed up in a "puzzle palace". Most ops were for H&I effect in furtherance of broader mission objectives and normally subsumed under the Psyops component of the UW nature of our assignments.

Guys, this was in the 60s and 70s. I haven't put the glass on a human target in over 20 years. I have been involved primarily in training and have watched the evolution of weapons, ammunition, tactics and utilization of "Murder Inc." The closest I ever operated to friendly units was nearly 90 nautical miles with only FAC on station support. For those that are familiar with the terrain in the western and northern highlands of SVN and the jungles of C. America, you simply had to close to uncomfortable distances, but, again, the nature of the terrain, ground cover, and lack of airmobile assets of the enemy offset the disadvantages so it was about even.

In discussions in months past, there was debate over what constituted a sniper. Quite frankly, some of my shots could have been made with the iron sights of my CAR. So perhaps identifying some of the missions as "sniper" was a stretch. However, distance alone, in my opinion does not constitue a sniper op. There is disagreement on this and that is what makes a horse race.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 19:54:52 (ZULU)

SMTC be warned; Stefan might not be a sniper, but there is no-one on our side of the planet who knows more bout sniping than he does, and even far worse, this dude can shoot too!

O, and Scott, also tell Stefan he doesnt need to worry bout his wife, because i'll be
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 20:04:19 (ZULU)

ROFL

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 20:08:44 (ZULU)

Heralded as a german G3 Sniper scope,
I originally bought My H&K 91 A2 while in the Marine
Corps based out of Camp LeJuene NC
and I remember the Rifle and accessories cost about 500.00
at the time and the Zeiss Scope and mount was 750.00 at
the time. ( 81 or 82) so I know the value is there,
but I am not sure exactly How to set up the scope
and set windage/elevation to maximise the utility.

IE: on the elevation the markings are (at the top edge)
1 2 3 4 5 6 and underneath these #s Is:
75 45 30 20 15 10

Does this mean posistion 6 is for 100 meters
5 for 150 M and so on ending with 1 = 750 meters?
The spacing between the clicks varies as well 1 &2 are close together
while 5 and 6 are almost 90 degrees apart.

On the windage it has 0 10 20 with 10 positions in between each
both R & left, is this MOA or what?

Both Have 2 set screws and a coin notch to zero the scope
and so the indents (clicks) will function as designed,
It is 1.5 to 6 power variable, is clear as a bell and looks to be super well made, as one would expect from a Zeiss.

The reticle is a heavy post at the bottom and to the sides
with a small wire at the center crosspoint and upper vertical.
It has small alternating increments much like a ruler
on the horizontal reticle. what is the incremental
mesurement standard for these markings I understand
it to be variable with the power setting but is there a referance?

And finally what is your overall opinion of the scope as compared
to others?

Your site has a wealth of information and most I did not Know
Especially about cleaning rifles,
My range is limited to about 200 yds and all of my shooting consists
of Iron Sights, so my scope knowledge is very limited.
having read many of the posts I feel hoplessly inadequate to even be on this forum I always thought that getting 10 out of ten rounds in the black at 200 yards (Iron sights) was kicking ass for me.
OBVIOUSLY I don't even rate to pick up your empty cases for you, 

Thanks for the wealth of info this site provides
a copy of the instruction manual would be more than I could hope for so any Info you can tell me would be appreciated.

Rich
 
 

Mr.Rich <pentium@gte.net>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 20:17:32 (ZULU)

I am experimenting with different types of .22 LR ammo (different manufacturers, rifles and the occasional handgun(sorry), subsonic loads, different bullet shapes, 29 to 60 grains, etc...). Has anyone out there played enough with .22's to develop any maximum EFFECTIVE range data (minimizing noise is a secondary concern). I know that the humble .22 is hardly considered a major player in the art of long range shooting, but, a change from the .308 standard can be welcome.

So far I have floundered about with different rounds without narrowing down my choices much. I would appreciate any advice on testing methods, or, better yet, info on .22LR ammo that has proven itself worthy in the past.

Thank You & Regards.
 

Brad <brad.scott@frco.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 20:31:08 (ZULU)

I know, gunz dont kill, people do, but if those people who are on the wrong side of the law can get those gunz they will just do that, kill.
And even people who arent criminals but who are not "mentally" fit to own a gun are still getting gunz way to easy in your country.
The statistics of gun related deaths and wounded just proove this.

I am not saying that our gun laws and rulez are all that, but here in the Netherlands you need to be 18 y old, and be a member of a shooting club for 1 year, and in that first year you need to shoot at least 12 times, then the police will screen your history to see if you have been invovled with them before and then you get a permit for just 1 gun, be it a pistol/revolver or a rifle/shotgun.Then for the next year you are only allowed to have 1 gun and again have to shoot at least 12 times, after this second year again you need to go to the police and ask for a prolonggation of your permit only this time, after the second year, you are allowed to have 5 weapons, for which you need to shoot at least 36 times in a year.

Resume, here you are allowed to have max 5 weapons, for which you have to shoot at least 36 times in 1 year, and every year you need to come back to the police to prolong your gun permit, and once a year the police come to your home unannounced, to see how your weapons are being locked up.

Further more, we are not allowed to have just any kind of a weapon, big nono's are; -fully auto-matic weapons like machinegunz or submachinegunz or assualt weapons like m16, aug etc etc, however, if they have been made durable semi-automatic then they are allowed, like the ar15's semi- a. aug's etc etc
-folding or collapsable butts like the ones on the galil or the colt commando, these are allowed unless they have been made durable un-folding -collapsable
-rifles which shoot pistol ammo like the mp5, uzi, fn p90 etc etc
-calibers of .50 and above
-silencers

As you can see we have to do quite a bit to legally own gunz, but this way all the wankers dont get their hands on gunz because most of them either dont make it through the police clearing or they only join a gun club for like half a year and then quite becuae they find it to much a hassel, this way only the law abiding disciplinned citizens will get their hands on gunz.

Compared to our gun laws you americans extually dont have much to complain about, now do you?
:)
 

Nec Temere Nec Timide.

McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 20:58:39 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 21:08:17 (ZULU)

Happy shootings on SMTC, feldwebel.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 21:30:11 (ZULU)

The issue is LIBERTY, not guns. As a professor of criminal justice at 3 major universities over the past 7 years, my scholarship has centered around the dynamics and causes of interpersonal violence. My master's thesis and my doctoral dissertation both focused on weapons in the hands of private citizens.

Your statistical support for your argument is seriously flawed, both methodologically and interpretively. The data collected by Wright, Rossi, Kleck, Kopel, etc. strongly support quite different conclusions regarding the availability of guns. Some research indicates that if we use regression analysis techniques and eigen value analysis, that if the "minority" unlawful weapons use, specifically in homicide is factored out, the homicide rate in the US is less than that of Great Britain with whom we are so often spuriously compared.

Thomas Jefferson noted during the founding of this nation that immigration to these United States should be confined to the British and specific Northern Europeans due to their understanding of the conception of liberty which formed the basis for this Republican system of government. To allow our freedom to be regulated by the apparatus of the state, and to place such discretion for the granting of the permission to own weapons in the hands of the police is to eviscerate a right and turn it into a privilege. Neither the state nor the police are to be trusted. As a former agent of the state and a police officer, I speak from first hand experience.

We already have over 20,000 weapons possession and use restrictive laws on our books. These laws prohibit the mentally incompetent, convicted felons, domestic abusers, etc. from owning or purchasing weapons. To allow further restrictions on the possession of weapons to be enacted, we are paving the way for the same sort of confiscation that occured in Britain and Australia.

Freedom is a high risk enterprise. It entails risk and consequences. I submit that I, and most other law abiding Americans, prefer the cost of the violence, tragic as it may be, to the security of the paternal government which rules your country. We are citizens, not subjects.

I enjoy your posts, but we will engage on this issue my friend.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 21:39:20 (ZULU)

To Jarrett; Thnx for the info, again, very interesting, already explains much about the sniping on short distances due to circumstances, and that it has been 20 years dont matter, because it was guys like you who formed the basis for snipers schools and courses around the world now.

Nec Temere Nec Timide
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 21:47:07 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 22:03:13 (ZULU)

Thanks for the Gore-Tex liner Idea comments. A friend of mine directed me to the local Fabric store and in a corner of the store was a rack of diffrent Gore-Tex fabircs. They wanted about $11.00 a yard.That seems like a decent deal to me They did not have Gore-seam tape but had a epoxy sealing compound that one of the staff recomended that I use on the seams. It would make the seams water proof, they would not be able to breath
but that would only be on the seams.

One gentalman was comenting on the Dutch Gore-tex liner for his jacket. I have the jacket but when I bought it a few years ago in England they did not have the Gore-tex liners. A local surplus store has a rack of the jackets and liners but will not sell me just the liner! The liners look quite well used also. So I will try to make my own. Thanks for the advice once again!

Theo
Theo Martin <MrF2@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 23:01:26 (ZULU)

Lest you think I am an idiot, my comment re: precession and the earth's rotation was not a meant as support for spindrift causation. I was speaking of the similar phenomenon of precession, a conceptual term which few shooters are familiar with. In 30 years of shooting, this is the first time I have heard a clear and concise explanation of the phenomenon noted. My respects.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 23:14:53 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 23:25:04 (ZULU)

The scope now has approx. 1.25" sunshade that has internal threads
so that the lens is not right at the end of the scope as the review
states.

As far as SWFA goes: I would recommend purchasing from them.
They are efficient, quick, and most of all pleasant.
kudos to them.

BTW, am going to Arkansas in July. Will purchase either a Choate Sniper or Varmint Stock while there at their factory.
I plan on doing a review of the stock onced purchased.

keep the pointy end downrange....
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Pothole of America, Louisiana, USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 23:42:06 (ZULU)

All kidding aside, if we start to talk about it as a liberty issue instead of a gun issue then i agree utterly, if this "right" of he american people to keep and bear arms would be allowed to be taken away,where would it then stop, which right would be next to be lost, the right to speak what you think? Or the right to vote? etc etc.

But lets look at it as a gun issue or more specific, let's talk nr's.
The fact remains that each year your country has got enough gun related homicides to fill up a small city, and yes if you look at it as you said, with the "regression and eigen value analysis techniques" then you have less homicides then GB
(you almost start to sound like a politician;"yes we have 2 million jobless ppl, but if you use the oogyboogy analysis then youll see we only have 20000 joblessppl...")

You think our government is a paternal one, maybe so,(i tend to think not), i still have the right to vote,(so there for i select the government),i also have freedom of speech etc etc, i can own gunz, ok not just all gunz, but then again, give me 1 good reason why any civilian needs to have a minimi or a m60 or a silencer for that matter
or even why does a civilian need to have 50 or more weapons, which is not unknown in the good ol' US of A?
(to all honesty, like any other gun loving fool, i too would love to have 50 weapons, machine gunz and silencers, for i am a gun enthousiast, but it only takes one mad-man with gunz as in GB or Australia to start waisting woman and children, and each times that shit happens as in that US school last time with those Trench coat killers, i say to myself what if it was my woman/ son/daughter who got butchered by those idiots? So i say gunz, yes, but within reasonable boundary's)

Anxiously waiting for your reply,
McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 23:45:01 (ZULU)

I hardly think you an idiot, to the contrary, as I have read your posts in the last couple of days, I would like to meet you sometime. Certainly would like to discuss things with you. My respects to you sir, and thank you.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Friday, June 04, 1999 at 23:45:50 (ZULU)

Actually, your theory is almost word for word an explanation out of a certain naval gunnery text dated 1917. That pretty much explains the physics of it. I'll dig up the text and post it word for word in a couple of days. Drift for rifling and drift for rotation of the earth are two diffent things... as i'm sure you know. thank God, that we don't have to deal with the earths rotation though. One of the big reasons i harp on this is that someone once said that when you zero your rifle in or "shoot it in" at different ranges you are compensating for this automatically. Not true, unless you write down the right hand deflections that are noted from the drift. Take care.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 00:16:37 (ZULU)

Bruce Evans
 

Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 00:16:42 (ZULU)

I must first say I have no desire to become a Sniper, but what I do have a desire to be is a better shot. As I read all the posts and other information on this webpage, I feel privledged to be able to digest so much information that may or may not help me become a better shot.
So again I thank you all, espicially ScottPowers, for bringing all this together to help all of us become better shots and more informative in our selected shooting arenas.
 
 
 

Stephen Ogg <Soggmel@aol.com>
mt. airy , md, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 00:33:30 (ZULU)

Garmin)
Grasshopper <wd6cmu@earthlink.net>
Richmond, CA, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 00:43:17 (ZULU)

Yes the police will come unanounced, but that dont mean they just barge into your house and start to search your house for illegal weapons, they always ask nicely if it is convenient for them to inspect your weapons, and if you say no because you are going to visit your grandmother, then they will leave and tell you they will becoming back on some other date, ofcourse if you keep saying no, then it might be a bit suspiciuos to them and then they come with a search warrant, only and i really mean only, if they suspect you to be not on the up and above.....

(with the danger of starting a discussion of; my country is bigger and better than yours...)
I thank God on my bare knees that i aint living in the USA, cus howmany neighbours havent started to argue with eachother and then killed eachother because both man were carrying?
That is something we dont have here, or schoolkids killing eachother, or dutch people blowing up dutch people with a van full of furtilizer, or having mexican-standoff's with our police....

Our "SWAT" teams have had to kill 3 armed criminals and wound 17 in 15 years time, and they only lost i "SWAT" officer (first dutch woman ever to make it to "SWAT", got shot in neck when she went in first)
Can the US say that about their SWAT teams? Me think not.

How many examples do you want me to give of where it has gone wrong with your "right to keep and bear arms"?
Waco Texas
Oklahoma
Colarado highschool
Denver highschool
The famous sniper in the tower incident
etc etc etc

I think we have gotten rid of the Prairy Dog super range kills and found a new subject, but lets not wonder of to much and keep changing info on long range shooting and sniping, cause that is what this site is for , i believe, and not a political discussian forum.

But always open and up for any discussian,
McNab
Ps; once more i appoligize for my not "al that" english.

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 01:09:28 (ZULU)

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 01:11:00 (ZULU)

Mcnab, Keep your drivel to yourself, or you could bring it here, doubt you'd want to do that though. It could be mean.

Trigger50, keep to your tanks, you're out of your depth.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 01:37:18 (ZULU)

McNab: I understand your arguments and they stem from a compassion for the lives of victims and potential victims. Your arguments have a seductive appeal that is the bread and butter of the progressive liberal anti-gun movement in the United States. Our differences are fundamental and culturally based. We come from different "first principles." Hence my comment earlier regarding Jefferson's observations about immigration and peoples' concepts of liberty. Your desire to protect human life and thus better the lives of those around you is laudable indeed, but it is the stuff of which slavery is made. A very wise man once noted that we must choose between liberty and security, we cannot have both. We will agree to disagree on this. You see, "democracy" works for you. Compared to what your nation endured during WWII, you accept a diminished concept of freedom and are content. More power to you. As was noted earlier, a lot of American blood of my father's generation helped purchase your current comfort and relative liberty.

Your approval of democracy is appropriate for your country. By contrast, the word "democracy" is never mentioned in any of the primary founding governing documents of the United States. We were meant to be a Republic. The very problems you so correctly point out are the result of pluralism and "democracy".

Unless the webmasters admonish us otherwise, or the other lads on the net protest, this site and its content, by definition, warrant public politocal discussion. Without the exchange and clarification of the political ideas, our profession, be it past, present or future, is in danger of losing its honor. Without the moral basis of liberty and its political justifications, snipers would be nothing but murderers and assassins.

We may continue with this respectful dialogue if the net permits.

Nobody is "just a sarge" my friend. I was a Staff Sergeant and damn proud of my rank, my unit, and my nation. Sergeants are the backbone of any military. The officers could all go home and the work would get done. My professional respects to you.

BTW: Some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen were from the Netherlands, you lucky dog.

De Oppresso Liber

Bravo 52 Actual
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 02:44:18 (ZULU)

Thicker walls (and perhaps flutes??) would tend to minimize the barrel distortion resulting from the force applied by the bullet as it accelerates throughout the length of the barrel.

Whatdya think?
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 03:09:51 (ZULU)

Whew! What a breath of fresh air! Thank you for your intellectual and yet very classy response to McNab! I appreciate your posts and all that you have done to enable us to even have this discourse!
mcshooter <mjsheehan@verio.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 03:24:27 (ZULU)

Your tortured logic reminds me, for whatever reason, of a quote. I think it was CS Lewis that said...

"And all the time--such is the tragic comedy of our situation---we continue to clamor for those very qualities we are rendering impossible. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."

I have more than one locker filled with guns and none of them have escaped at night to shoot some innocent. Guns are tools no different from a hammer. A hammer can drive a nail and build a home, or it can crush the back of a head. It is the person swinging the hammer that has all of the control.
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 03:28:11 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 04:28:59 (ZULU)

On the lighter side: Since Mr. Jarrett has returned from the great void, there must be life after Kansas. Maybe there's hope for an old barrel choppin' yodel dog shooting redneck like you. Okay, well, maybe that's asking too much. (hehehe)....
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 04:33:15 (ZULU)

JFD
JFD <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Texas, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 04:58:44 (ZULU)

I don't believe I have yet heard such an eloquent defense for the NEED to maintain the right to bear arms. Like most of the people who frequent this page, I exercise and enjoy that right. And like many of us, I fell the noose trying to tighten around that right, which we must stand against.

I respect "McNabb"'s thoughts, because his intent is for the good of his neighbor whether or not the logic is sound, and because part of liberty is allowing people the freedom to feel how they will about a subject.
With that said, I must join in a stance against such ideas... to educate people about the essential nature of firearms to the U.S. Constitiution. Firearms are NOT dispensible to our form of government, whether or not the masses recognize this fact.

I believe one of the points you have made that I hadn't thought about before is the difference between a republic and a democracy. I would hazard to say that most people think of them interchangably; and they are very similar. The key to a democracy is that the people governed are the ones who hold the power by voting, and the majority rules. A republic utilizes a representative for groups of the people to express their wishes.

The reason I want to bring out this difference relates to the masses I mentioned earlier. I have students who come through my classroom in college... students who hold a diploma and have passed the required tests to enter a university... and many are incompetent. I have had students tell me that they can't convert from inches to feet. I can tell them that they'll have a quiz at the end of class, and I'll tell them explicitly what the answers are during the class, and they still fail. I really used to think that it was an insult to refer to the "masses" as the equivelent of being uneducated, but I now see that unfortunately it is true. I don't WANT the masses being able to make broad sweeping decisions.

I am uncomfortable with many of the representatives chosen by the people. However, most are "educated", or more importantly, at least competent. They that are truly educated and concerned for the welfaare of the country should realize as we here do that firearms are an integral part of our society, our government, our lives. They also listen to us. If they don't they don't get re-elected. The masses who are uninterested and drone along in their lives, who don't participate, are just along for the ride. Those of us who care about our liberty need to constantly remind the representatives that we, those who choose to participate, are the ones who hold power.

Most of the population doesn't own guns. Hopefully most won't ever come to a point where they "NEED" to own a gun. But those of us who recognize the NEED to maintain the RIGHT to own them, we educate ourselves and make our will known. For the good of all of us, even the masses, though they are unaware of the fight we carry on for them.

I realize that I've expounded more than I originally intended, and shall now cease and desist.... I'm probably preaching to the choir here. Yes, B. Rogers, you are right: sniping is political, and we who have an interest in sniping need to be aware of the politics upon which we rely. This may not be as interesting to some as how many grains of Varget are needed to achieve X velocity of a 175gr .308 HPBT, but it is every bit as important here.

'Night, all...
 

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Vols, TN, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 05:12:02 (ZULU)

well Sir, in the USA it is quite legal for a private citizen to own a machine gun like a minimi or an M60 and yes sound suppressors as well. This country has a long history of ownership of all kinds of weapons including machineguns. you might find it interesting that of all of the thousands of legally owned machineguns, sound suppressors, short shotguns and short rifles in the USA only one legal owner has commited a crime with one...and that legal owner turned out to be a police officer. you should know that it's great fun to go out and blast through a few belts on the MAG-58 or the minimi, it's fun and in the US we can still do it. one good reason? well, the US Constitution says we can.

The US Constitution states that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" it makes no mention of whether or not you can own more than 50 firearms, and with all due respect sir, it's none of your or anyones damn business how many firearms any law abiding American owns.

McNab sir, if you don't like our firearms regulations, don't move here. keep in mind that legal firearms owners, CCW holders, and even those evil class three fans are not the problem, criminals break laws whether firearms related or not. Listen to Mr. Jarrett, he is a very wise individual.
Rich <rich76@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 05:30:58 (ZULU)

You made a list citing trouble in America because of firearms. Specifically, your list was:

Waco Texas
Oklahoma
Colarado highschool
Denver highschool
The famous sniper in the tower incident
etc etc etc

1st) Waco was a case of the government becoming overbearing on the citizens, which is precisely why firearms are important to keep.

2nd) Oklahoma had nothing to do with firearms. Fertilizer, diesel, and a rental truck were the weapons, and did far more damage than any pistolero could.

3rd) Colorado and Denver... same incident, although you listed it twice. It was meticulously planned, and laws couldn't have stopped it; it was already illegal, what they did.

4th) The "infamous" incident was in 1966 in Austin, Texas, where Charles Whitman took up a position in the campus clock tower. It was an armed civilian with a deer rifle that provided suppressive fire, enabling police and another civilian to enter the tower and kill Whitman. Without the civilians' firearms, many more police would have died.

The United States isn't a small country. By virtue of it's size, there will be murders committed by firearms. Considering its size, there are relatively few, though. Automobiles kill MANY more people each year than firearms in the US, yet people don't ban bumpers.

Although I like the statement (and believe there is much truth in it) "Beware the man who has one gun, because he will know how to use it!", I believe that even more important is the mechanic's addage about the right tool for the job. A .308 bolt gun is a great general-purpose gun. So is a .223 AR-15 - durable, dependable, and capable. Sometimes a little semi-automatic .22 rifle is exactly what you might need going squirrel hunting. If you decide to go bear hunting, I'd select a larger-caliber rifle, and carry a large caliber handgun for close encounters. When you want to teach your child marksmanship fundamentals, a .22 bolt gun is an exellent choice to begin with. If you work in a hazardous neighborhood, an high-capacity carry pistol might be best for the task. If you go dove hunting, you'll need a shotgun. Then you need a black-powder rifle to hunt deer in the appropriate season. When you go to cowboy tournaments, you need a pair of 6-guns and a lever-action carbine. Then when you go to the range, you might want an out-n-out competition bench gun. Your wife might be more comfortable with a revolver for home defense for nights when you're away. Your great-grandfather's rifle from the Civil War is a heirloom you wouldn't ever want to part with.

That's 15 guns, and I'm only getting warmed up... someone might be a collector, or a dealer, a historian, an avid hunter, a talented competitor... many reasons to own more than "5" firearms. See my point?

Okay! I'll relent... for a little bit. But as Arnold said, "I'll be back."

:-)
 

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Home of the Vols, TN, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 05:54:31 (ZULU)

McNabb, stay home. I personally don't want you here with your views. We have enough spineless people here as it is.

Ok, down off the soap box.
 
 
 

It's not what we do, It's what we are.
Randy Stoddard <onesht1kil@yahoo.com>
PC, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 09:01:08 (ZULU)

I started over 5 years ago to bring at least ONE person into the "Art of Shooting" be it Rifle,Pistol,Shotgun...long range, short, hunting or sport. It didn't matter, get someone who doesn't shoot to enjoy what I do !! So far have done much better than expected, currently 28 people are now "dyed in the wool" gun enthusiasts !! Of that 28, 19 had NEVER fired a firearm before meeting me and 3 of those were very much opposed to any firearm. Sure , I have had a few turn me down, but the rewards are immense and there is no telling how many may even now be influencing someone else to learn and enjoy what they now practice. BTW, not quite half were female ...

I don't have the eloquence of some or the experience of others. I have served my country (16yrs total) and, yes, I have been to McNabb's country and I have yet to see a Train hijack by terrorists in MY country OR see the police standing around in the airport carrying FULL-Auto weapons as you do in Europe and other countries !! Wonder why?? It sure would be nice to have gunowners classed as a minority or similar....then we could demand "Federal Protection" for a right we already have , or descrimination !!! 
OUT HERE
Will <willadams@mindspring.com>
Al, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 10:52:41 (ZULU)

PLEASE READ EACH AND EVERY COLUMN AND PAGE IN THIS WEBSITE THEN YOU WILL HAVE A BETTER IDEA WHO YOU'RE collectively slapping around.

The Universalist propaganda machines of Europe and this Continent can make you believe eating goat food will make you a Sports Champion if, and only if, you are a sucker and believe them.

I feel sorry for the Euro-brothers in arms, their war is long lost, just look at the history pages, read, and see.

we're following too!
 

AND PLEASE NO MORE BEEFUS AND BUTTHEAD hEH-HEH'S they're still in the White House..........

peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 11:46:57 (ZULU)

OK guys, enough of this crap. Scott, I think it's time to set up a roster for political and 2nd amemdment rights posts. Lord knows I respect everyone's right to an opinion but I have been reminded several times that this site is for the art of long range shooting. Everytime we get into these pissing contests pertinant questions about shooting and technically related subjects go unanswered. It pretty well speaks for itself the the majority of the readers of this site are law abiding, gun loving, professional type, people who that if it came down to it would protect there right to keep and bear arms. Each time we get one of "these" types posting everybody gets their panties in a wad. Did you ever think that some people like to post just to get us stirred up? Hell, let them post, tell them to kiss your ass and let it die. Newcomers, including me, to this type of gunning are making decisions on thousands of dollars worth of equipment based on information we try to get from this site.

I was talking to one of the main players here the other night about some questions. I told him that even though I may not make it to Carlos II, I was still going to send my money in. Not that it makes any real difference to anyone but if the fun up there is going to be ruined by this political bullshit, I'd just as soon send in my money and stay home. This is not a personal attack on anyone. We all know the bastards are out to get our guns and we all have to make a decision to handle it in our own way, mainly at the voting booth. Let's get back to gun and related talk!

Thanks for the replies to my posts of May 30, but it would be nice to have a few more especially concerning the Data book and good quality surplus ammo.

Off my soapbox for the last time, Bolt
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 11:48:55 (ZULU)

Looks like there's been a lot of activity on the Roster since I logged on last night.Haven't seen this much activity for quite a while.

McNab,I honestly believe you couldn't have been niave enough not to realise the shit storm your comments would bring.I think you're sitting back laughing at all the people who've obviously spent lots of time and effort to respond to your comments.

Hey,you came to the wrong place to pick a fight;if that's what you wanted ?

Let's all keep in mind that this is an international forum and that we may all have different opinions based on our varied cultural backgrounds.

No doubt McNab's comments are based on his actual beliefs.Just because they are different from ours doesn't make him a vilan.

I respectively say that all the comments regarding Thomas Jefferson and the American Constitution aren't going to mean a whole lot to someone who isn't an American.All of these things are going to be lost on someone who doesn't share the same cultural and national identity as yourselves.

Bolt,you're absolutely right.Let's cut out all this bullshit and get back on track.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 13:07:06 (ZULU)

Trigger,if I recall correctly, you recently made mention of the ongoing U.S. military trials to select a new .50 cal based weapon system.Do you have any updates on how the trials are going ?
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 13:32:38 (ZULU)

Now where did I put that 20mm data.
Paul D. <avos@pickletree.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 16:19:07 (ZULU)

Hereby i appoligize to every one who found my comments uncalled for, who thought i was slapping them in the face, and who feels threatend by my comments.
I am sorry, period.

I've been reading your comments to mine, which rains from me being naive, to me should be minding my own buiseness and even to a; let him rott.....
I really thought this was a free to join and share your opinion site.

All i ever did was reading some of your posts and responding to them the way i felt about it, and it was not me who started with the subject, i only shared my opinion, my vieuw of the way i see how you americans handle the gun controversy.

Let me get one thing strait; i am on the side of the gun owning people, i despise the anti-gun lobby as much as any other gunowner, because unfortenatly we too have anti-gun people in our country as if we didnt have enough gun controlling rulez...

Can you blame me for my vieuw of your country? How would you americans think of the Netherlands if you saw Dutch schoolkids waisting children and teachers with shotgunz and assault weapons, just because they got teazed a lot.... or like 2 years ago, when 2 young kids started to kill other school kids with the assault weapons they had stolen from their granddad just because they argued over a girlfriend ......

I understand why some of you get so wound up about the subject, because like i said before, if they take away this right of the US citizans, then where will it stop, which amendement would be next? And yes, if they would start in the US with takeing away your right, soon other governments would follow and before you know it there wouldnt be a democracy left in the world.

I knew i would get some harsh reactions, and no, i wasnt being naive, because thats what discussion are about, from time to time they need a little oil on the fire.

Although i wouldnt like to live in your country for personal reasons, that dont mean i dont like the USA, i think its a very beautifull and more importantly, very powerfull country,with nice friendly citizans.

With out he US we europeans now might have been talking german instead of english, we know that, and on a more global scale, without the US NATO would be powerless, and the communist would never have been stopped.Fact is the world needs the US, although many are denying it, the US is becoming a global police force, without it many other nations would have been over run by unfriendly neighbouring country's.

To respected Jarrett; thanks for your reply, as allways , very well put, and yes, the woman here are fabulous, hehe.

To Leslie Bright; very enlightning , your reply, good explanation bout differences between a democracy and a republic.

To Ted Gray; if you mean to use 1 set for hunting and sniping then i'd go with the bulletdrop compensator, although one alternative is to use the quar.min.clicks and put a tape around the elevation knob where you can make your own bulletdrop compensator on with pencil, this will take a lot of shooting at each 100 yard or meter distance but will be more accurate then a factory made bulletdrop compensator, because each ammo load will impact differently and every human lies differently behind his weapon, we teach our snipers the same, and the tend to like it better then the factory made bulletdrop compensator on our schmidt und benders. Hope you can use this info.

To trigger 50; sorry you feel offended enough to have to say; let him rott...hope we can forget our disagreement and continue our info exchange, found your info about the bulletdrift subject very usefull.

BUT NOW I M GETTING PISSED; TO RANDY STODDARD; I CAN UNDERSTAND I IRRITATED SOME PEOPLE , AND I HAVE APPOLIGIZED FOR IT, BUT YOU, SIR, CALLED ME SPINELESS!!!!
WHO THE...., NO, ILL KEEP IT NICE,WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOU DONT EVEN KNOW ME, ALL INFO YOU GOT IS MY POSTINGS AND THATS ENOUGH FOR YOU TO CALL ME SPINELESS?????
Even the fucking serbs in bosnia who out numbered us 5 to 1 hadnt the nerve to call us spineless, YOU SIR, HAVE CRANKED MY PRIDE.

To WILL; you are wright, i should see things for my self, thats why i am coming to the USA this year, and hopfully i'll be able to visit SMTC
And i also like the way you get people enthousiastic for the "gun-cause", let them shoot a gun themselves, and then form a opinion about the subject.

To Jeff Babineau; no SIR, i am not laughing and i sure didnt want to start a fight.

FINALLY TO ALL;
if anyone of you is still on talking terms with me, then please answer this question, Who has gotten any experience on shooting up or down hill alot? I would like to know how some of you think of the influences that come with shooting in hill country?

thanks in advance,
one roughed up red beret,
McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
 
 

McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 16:22:17 (ZULU)

If i understand the theory on the break in process wouldn't it be better to clean the bore but not oil it between the break in shots? Seems to me the oil would reduce friction between the bullet and bore, slowing the breakin process.

Then again I could be full of it. Any thoughts?
respectfully, recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
ready to break in my m1a, kansas, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 16:47:00 (ZULU)

Thank you in advance.
Joshua L. Putman <levi@tucker-usa.com>
USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 20:44:35 (ZULU)

Anyway, enough for my soapbox. God Bless America
Brent Hughes <buhiromi@telusplanet.net>
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 21:54:00 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 22:37:53 (ZULU)

McNab, I used my whole real name because in America we can. I seem to recall you not wanting to use your real name. I have been a cop for eighteen years and have seen alot and I mean alot of dead bodies. Very few were killed with legally owned firearms. I have served hundreds of search warrants and shot no one in the process. As a matter of fact when I went to SWAT School 17 years ago, we were taught that a succesful mission was one in which no one was shot. Now I know the Neatherlands is a huge place with probably the population of the city I work in and I wonder how you compare the US with a small place. Statistically the numbers are going to be off. I used to work for a PD that had no murders one year and two the next. Was that an increase of 200% and hell that is much worse than the current one that just went down from 172 to 160 murders. Statistics could be made to show city number two is a better place to live than the one with only two for the year.
Mike Miller <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Saturday, June 05, 1999 at 23:12:22 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 00:39:43 (ZULU)

Idid check out the Long Bow on Dakota's web page and to say the least it is IMPRESSIVE!!
I find it hard to believe that those high dollar tac rifles are worth the money when you can generaly have good gunsmith build you a good rifle for half the cost!!
Any and all response welcomed!!
THANKS! BigGunn
BigGunn <meghan@penn.com>
Mtn. Country, Pa., USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 01:14:45 (ZULU)

To the person that posed the question about the torque of the bullet accelerating causing the barrel to warp. You probably get more barrel movement from the barrel becomming pressurized, akin to a water hose straightening when turned on. Gravity probably droops a barrel when supported only at the action. A friend in nuclear engineering discussed this with me when he was learning the math.

Roger
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 04:24:53 (ZULU)

Theo: I had a torn lower leg on my pair of GI Gore-Tex pants. After they were sewed up I used the sealant that came with my tent to seal the seams on the rain fly, worked great. Like you said, it won't make much difference if the seams don't "breath."

(And a clarification: there should always be some sort of outer layer over the Gore-Tex, I didn't really say it right back in my original post. Doh!)

McNab: You gotta understand something else. Lately, we've taken a beating from the folks who hate us and our guns, so comments like "Why do you need a xxx?" are like poking a bruised and irritated grizzly bear - you should not be surprised when he lashes out at you. I gotta go with James and the others on this, big time. Praise the lord and pass the ammo guys.

Brent: You're right, it's a shame the NRA has only 3 million members, with so many gun owners in the US. I have several buddies who are gun owners but most aren't in the NRA, mostly because they can't be bothered to do it. Drives me absolutely up the [expletive] wall. All you other Duty Roster regulars should be in the NRA (or some other group like GOA if the NRA is too timid for your taste.)

- Dave
(NRA LIfe Member/Certified Instructor, California Rifle and Pistol Association 5-year member, Gun Owners of California, Etc.)

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 05:21:48 (ZULU)

Seems to me that all of those gun ownership requirements in the Netherlands would only affect those who are law-abiding. How would any of those strict gun laws keep someone who doesn't give a hoot about the laws and has intentions of commiting a criminal act from getting guns? Surely they could steal weapons or buy them on the "black market". I haven't been to the Netherlands, but you'd have a really hard time convincing me that "bad people" couldn't get their hands on weapons there. The law-abiding people have to deal with all the red tape and jump through the hoops while the criminally-inclined just laugh!

We already have MORE than enough gun laws and restrictions here in the United States. They only affect the law-abiding citizens. If the United States banned all guns and every gun manufacturer here was put out of business do you really think guns would be hard to obtain?? Of course not. Cocaine and heroine are illegal in the United States, and there are no legal manufacturers of such substances, but the stuff is readily available. You don't have any illegal drugs at all over there in the Netherlands, do you?

Bottom line - gun control laws and restrictions just don't work!! The people that pay attention and abide by them are not the problem!

Gary <GSX1166@hotmail.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 05:26:53 (ZULU)

geez guys, just hit SC again after a break and another cuckoo outbreak. It seems to me that some people dont have a life and must thrive on internet controversy to get their jollies. The characteristic of the last several bash sessions is that everyone wants use SC DR as their personal soapbox.

If we cant reason among friends I doubt we can mount an intelligently constructed arguement to put against our real foes.

Gee, none of this had thing to do with long range shooting, but then some blokes dont read the bit at the top of the page that says keep it relevant and free of insults etc.

Have you ever thought that we have more gun control than most of us want because of what self-gratifying individuals choose to do?

Think about it.

Bill, dont bother old mate.

darryl <darryl.todd@eddept.wa.edu.au>
- Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 07:49:25 (ZULU)

HOW SIMPLY FREUDIAN AN ANSWER! I am coveting anothers rifle right now and I feel REAL guilty.

I'm running right out and getting some sack cloth, ashes, and a whip to beat Al O. with to properly atone for my transgressions. ;-)

Mc Nab,
Uphill/Downhill are the same, AIM LOW. In fact I feel so FAT (ha!) and SASSY this morning, I'll say get one of Dave Rolls "Slope Dopers" in an unabashed promotion of a fine BY-GAWD West Virgina product!
In fact, beg, plead, and grovel, (sack cloth optional) with Stefan to bring one back to you friend. You will absolutely squeal with ego gratifiying pleasure after using it fifteen minutes.

Chao!

peteR <pngreiff@aol.com>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 11:42:19 (ZULU)

I'm off net till tomarrow as I am hauling horses from New Mexico to Arizona. Couple of mares going for a honeymoon.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 12:27:45 (ZULU)

To BOB; you are so wright.

To Neil; you might wanna try Vithavuori, i used to have a winchester model 70 in 30-06, and i liked the n160 and n140 with heavy sierra bullets, 200 or even 220 grainers. But these are still stick-powder.

To Mike Miller; My name is Marco Plug, McNab is just a nickname all my friends and colleagues use for me.
Like your info about JB, and i preffer a jag tip too over a "slotted" one, but you write you use one peace of cloth and you use it back and forth till its useless, we teach our guys to use each cloth only one time, and only insert the jag from chamber side in and then remove the cloth at the muzzle and repeat this whole sequence till one of the cloths comes out white again.
What do you think of this treatment, are we over doing it and isnt your way of going back and forth with the rod, damaging the rifling, as i've always been taught?
Like to get some comment on this.
And sorry, but no comments from me no more, on legal or illegal gunz, rulez and laws, percentages or whatsoever...

To Chris; How much do the leica's cost in the usa? Here they are about 15000 guilders, thats about 7000us dollars.

To Will; Thank you, i havent checked my e-mail yet, will do it right now!!

To Gary; If you want a comment, e-mail me, cus i aint saying didly about it here nomore, and about the drugs; hell, the druggies can get the soft drugs legally on every corner of our major cities in so-called "coffee-houses" and the hard-drugz are even provided by the government to the hard line users, this has worked for the Netherlands, because drug related crimes as braking and entering or robberys have decreased! I aint saying that this also might work for the usa so lets leave it at that AND STICK TO SNIPING before i am gettin hate-mails again from your friendly gunowning law abiding citizans....NOMORE POLITICS FOR ME!

Still love the site,

McNab/Marco Plug

Nec Temere Nec Timide (maybe some of you guys should translate this)
McNab=Marco <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 13:13:58 (ZULU)

The jag provides a better surface area for cleaning the bore and the patch comes off at the muzzle. Remember this is one of the few times you wipe only once ;-)

Chao for now!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 14:03:10 (ZULU)

I was wondering if the man who was oiling between each of the shots was making his break in take longer.

Thanks for the reply though.
recon
recon <recon@midusa.net>
Kansas, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 14:34:27 (ZULU)

Range finders,
A friend of mine jsut bought the 1000 yard Bushnell and he will let me use them to compare them to the Licas another friend of mine has, so I will let you know how they compare.

Bolt,
No one likes to talk about this "Shooting" stuff more than I do but there are also other things that need to be discussed and should be, because if we don't pay heed to it now we may not have anything to talk about later other than the "Good Old Days" when we used to be able to go out and shoot at the range and you know what thats where I am headed, great day, wind blowing 18 gusting to 25!!!
Pat <mrbullwt@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 15:22:16 (ZULU)

I am totally uninformed about your country and its government, but if you read the reports or watch CNN, you can understand the inherent paranoia felt by many US gun enthusiasts with regard to government trustworthiness. First, they convince you that it's in the spirit of public safety (protect the kids!, etc.). Then they jump into political bed with the gun contol maniacs and exchange more restrictions for campaign contributions. Before you know it, you're disarmed and living at the mercy and whim of unethical, immoral scum.

Look at the effect gun control has had, historically, in Europe. Just ask the Kosovars if they'd have defended their homes - had they been armed. Or the WWII Jews... And on the other side of the coin, why didn't Hitler invade Switzerland? Guns in every home go a long way to deter invasion. As a warrior, you can imagine house to house fighting through a whole nation!

The 2nd Ammendment to the US Constitution was included to provide citizens with the means to remove a tyrannical government gone amok. Our key problem here is that we refuse to prosecute and punish the bad guys. Everyone has an excuse here. Everyone is a victim of some horrible experience that caused their behavior to occur. There should be excuse control - or 'victim' control.

Tragic killings are exactly that - tragic. Maybe if my kids were caught up in something like that, I might change my tune, but for now, I think this nation's freedom is well worth the hassle of cleaning up the messes. I honestly respect your opinion. I am just glad that I don't have to go through the same process as you, to own a gun.
Roger E. Lay <rlays@aol.com>
Corpus Christi, Tx, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 16:43:28 (ZULU)

McNab;
Anybody can start a fight but it takes a man to admit that he has stepped on anothers feelings and appologize.We ALL learn in many different aspects everyday.I respect your opinion and invite you to our country to enjoy the freedom that we so passionately defend.

Bruce Evans
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 17:44:09 (ZULU)

Our process for cleaning barrels is different from anything I have
seen posted here before.It works really well with the high velocity/
large capacity rifles we use for long range varmint and big game
hunting.

#1 Mix Hoppes Benchrest or Shooters Choice solvent with Flitz or
equalivalant mild polishing compound.Apply to high quality
brass cored bore brush.Scrub barrel 25 strokes back and forth.
Use 50 strokes during break in or if barrel is really fouled.
USE A GOOD BORE GUIDE.

#2 Change to a good pointed jag(I like the Dewey that comes with
the rod).Apply Sweets to a snug patch.Scrub barrel 20 strokes.

#3 Apply Sweets to another patch and scrub 5 strokes.Repeat until
patch remains fairly clean.Usually requires about 5-7 patches.

#4 Remove bore guide and dry bore.

#5 Put clean patch on jag and insert into bore from breech end.
Advance patch to within 1 inch of muzzle(this will vary with
bore size)

#6 Fill muzzle with Sweets.

#7 Slowly retract jag with patch.When the patch leaves the bore
and enters the chamber you must not let solvent run through
the chamber into the action.It will destroy the bedding.

#8 Plug the chamber.I use a .45 caliber STAINLESS STEEL pistol
brush with 2" cleaning patchs covering it like a pointed jag.
Ensure that the stainless brush NEVER makes contact with the
chamber.

#9 Let stand muzzle up for 10-15 min.

#10 Remove chamber plug.

#11 Push clean patch through barrel.

#12 If patch has blue color there is still copper fouling in bore.
Repeat steps 4-11.

This process works very well for me.I have not damaged a bore
or had any other problems with it.

TRIGGER 50,
I saw you mention the XLR laser.Do you have any problems with
the rather large beam ie. getting a reading on something other than
the target.

Sorry this is so long.
JB
JB <jburns@tritel.netGreat S>
USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 17:47:57 (ZULU)

To Stefan or Torsten: succes at the course, hope you'll be having lotsa fun but if you 2 dare to come back to europe without a "Slope-Doper" for me, i'll be wearing my "head and shoulders" in your gardens doing some "fine-tuning of my scope" on your faces....

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 18:00:30 (ZULU)

To all: I'd like to hear some findings and remarks on the scope with a intergrated rangefinder, like the one from , i believe it was, Swarovski.
All pro's and con's, i'd be much obliged.

To Mike M; thanks for your jag-usuage explanation.

yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 18:18:49 (ZULU)

Now relating to the subject about guncontral in europe, yes maybe if we Dutch all had guns in our houses maybe the germans wouldnt have invaded us, OR they still would have and killed many more of us then there have been now, because in the early years of the second WW, the German Wehrmacht was so proffessional and powerfull i doubt that even the us army could have done anything to stop them then, for i believe if my history knowledge serves me right, the us army wasnt ready at those early years to join the combat.

And about the Kosovo people, as i've alrdy been to the region, bosnia in 94 and am now on stand-by to go again, this time kosovo, i know quite a bit about the former yugoslav people, be them serb, muslim, kroat or kosovaar.
In fact, just about every household does actually have 1 or more gunz in their possesion, and since their history is filled with gun usage(they ve been fighting among eachoter since the turks/ottomaans invaded and occupied their country just up till Tito reunited them all in one government right after WW2) you could have expected the kosovaars to all have taken up their weapons against the serbs, but they didnt, just a few did and started the uck.

Now the question is why didnt they all take up their weapons against the serb army? (because just as you said, it would be any army's hell to have to practice fibua in every house)

The answer is very simple, their enemy "invading" force, was an army.
And what the hell are a bunch of armed civy's gonna do against a very well trained and more importantly, very heavy armed, army?
Nothing!!
Yes, there are some examples that powerfull army's were beaten by small armed groups, for instance your own Vietnam war comes to mind,
but had your own politicans backed up your army, instead of pulling out the soldiers, i really think your army would have won the vietnam war.

Another example, lets say the clinton administration starts to become a dictatorship with clinton turning out to be even worse than saddam himself, do you honoustly believe the american people could start a revolution and win it? (provided the us army is on clintons side, for the examples sake)
If the us army would be attacked by the civilians all they would have to do was to set a example,lets say they would attack los angeles and kill and execute every armed civilian (as the serbs have done in kosovo), do you really think that there would be enough americans left to take on the fight against that us army?
Yes , there still would be some brave honourable fighting men left who would start a guerrilia type war, but as in kosovo, they wouldnt stand a chance of winning the war bythemselves.

Look at your population, what they consist of, many of them, who now have big mouths and talk about they are able to kill just about anybody,those exact same people would be the first to lay down their weapons as soon as the army would execute a few.
Hey , maybe i am wrong, and maybe you and your neighbours are all very brave warriors and maybe you would win such a revolution and beat the us army....
But after reading this post of mine, turn off your computer and go to your local pub, or bar or where ever you go drink with your neighbours and friends, and have yourself a guinnes or a Heineken, then while you sit there sipping of your beer, take a real good look at the men sitting around you, most of them probably not doing any type of sport and having a beerbelly big enough to prevent them seeing their own dicks, now looking at them, do you still honoustly believe you could win that war, just because they al got ar15's, and some even a few m60's?

Now before every american starts attacking me again, we Dutch got the same problems as you, most of our civilian population are also spineless bunch of chickenshits, and here too it loooks as if the criminals have more rights then the victims, always saying; "o, poor old criminal had a bad yuth, he has been beaten by his dad, never had a peace of luck, thats why he killed both the children, torched the house and raped the dog..."

And i for one dont mind our Dutch rulez, i still got my weapons at home, still can shoot every day i want too and when ever i get the need to let go a riddle of full auto 7.62 i just goto my armory, grab me a mag or a .50 browning, goto the nearest range and start letting of some steam after a night on the duty roster......hahahaha

Now, i did it again, after i explicetly promissed my self not to reply to anything but sniping related topics, i still did it...

From here on out, Sniper stuff only; ranging, wind reading, stalking, map reading, spotting, kims games, weapons choices, to ghillie or not to ghillie etc etc...

yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide
Marco Plug aka McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 19:34:40 (ZULU)

Ofcourse, i know the us army would never turn against the us people, i do ASSUME that they, just like our ARMY are taught to obey orders but also to think about every order, is it legal, is it army relevant, and if so, would i as a soldier be able to life with it after following out the order, because i hope your soliers dont live by the
old fashiond rule;Befehl ist Befehl, i know we dont!

yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide

McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 22:08:06 (ZULU)

Boy, I'm out for a week or so and everyone is at each other's throats!!! Take it easy boys and girls!!

McNab:

Ya need to settle yer high horse down. We're all in this for the same result, info, not for knockin' a guy down for his ideas. We have a lot of people on this site, and the collection of the ideas presented by each are priceless.

Pat:

I'll get somethin' here on the 260rem soon, just getting the tooling ready for a run of 1/9" twists as we speak.

MikeM:

heheh, don't you worry fella, just ran some .308's thru, wanna check out the results before I decide to run yours thru. You understand, eh??? Me thinks they will be sweet.

By the way folks, moving sucks!!!

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, June 06, 1999 at 22:18:26 (ZULU)

JB,
I plan on coming to the shoot in Wyoming in August but I doubt I will have any extra time to make the rock chuck shoot but it sounds as though it would be a blast. Did you shoot it last year?? If not ,get in shape, its a ballbuster!!

McNab,
Sorry it's Leica.I am a lousy speller and worse at typing so I can sometimes come up with some interesting words(HA) and I will let you know what i think about the 1000.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 03:39:08 (ZULU)

Spicer200 <Spicer200@netscape.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 04:28:00 (ZULU)

By the way, free speech means you can express your ideas. It doesn't mean we have to agree with them and it doesn't mean we can't attack them, (verbally or in written text). Free speech isn't unidirectional.
Mike O'Brien <bopm@aol.com>
Evansville, WY, USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 05:15:55 (ZULU)

Chris

Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 05:36:12 (ZULU)

Looking for info on .30,284
Has anyone played with this caliber??
What speeds would you get with 170 lockbase projectiles??
Can you buy dies??
any info would be great. thanks
MATT <mattrow@esia.net.au>
sydney, NSW, Australia - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 08:22:07 (ZULU)

Bolt
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 11:05:40 (ZULU)

Sorry guys, been out of town for a few days. About the .50 caliber SWS trials. The recent competition was between only two guns, the Barrett M-95 (please spare us from garbage!!!) and the EDM Arms "Windrunner" check this gun out at www.firstdefense.com The Windrunner is a damn fine rifle that has competed successfully in the FCSA 1000 yard benchrest competition. It is a very special take down .50 caliber gun where the barrel can be removed from the reciever with an Uzi style barrel nut. It DOES NOT change it's zero by doing this.

Well the contract was only for 20 guns so it's not as big a catastrophe as I thought, but the damn Barrett won the competition. Personally, I think it was a bit rigged. I wrote a response for EDM Arms on a question that Aberdeen Proving Grounds sent them. APG stated the gun needed a bullet drop compensator that more closely matched the trajectory of the round. I scratched my head, at long ranges BDCs are useless. Changes in BP, air temp and ammo temp render the values on a BDC totally in error. Besides that, the spec. sheet for the gun stated a scope with a 1/4 minute of angle capability. The probabiliy of hit tests were horribly fowled. They calculated probability of hit at 11% at 1400 yards. Guys, with Mark 211 ammunition, the gun can hold easily less than 1 MOA at that range. So i'm wondering what their trajectory, shooter, and precision criteria were, cause I KNOW that Barrett can't shoot half as well as the Windrunner.

Anyway, that doesn't mean the windrunner is out because special ops units can make individual purchases just as the Navy did years ago when the Army dicked up that purchasing contract and baught the Barrett M82-A1 rifles. Take care, sorry for the late post.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 12:21:31 (ZULU)

We know that the earth is curved and that gravity emanates from the center in all directions roughly equally. At the surface however, because of the vast size of the planet and the relatively short distances we shoot, the gravity “waves” are 90 degrees to the surface of the earth. This is what causes the effect on a bullet that is fired uphill or downhill. You will always shoot high in either case. If I knew how to post a drawing or picture I have a good graphic depiction showing that when you shoot on an angle, you expose less of the trajectory to those perpendicular lines of gravitational flow.

Any target that is standing on a slant angle up or down from the shooter will appear to be smaller than it really is. This will affect visual and mechanical range finding methods (except lasers). The targer is visually compressed and will cause an overcalculation in the range when using Mildots or any other method. These effects are independent of the 3 conditions that affect visual range estimation.

Whenever correcting ANYTHING for slant angle from the gun to the target, your solution should come up smaller. Because of the reduction in gravitational effect, your required elevation settings are going to decrease. Now the question is, can this help you? You bet it can. Shooting uphill or downhill will do a few things for you. When you correct the range for slant angle, your elevation setting before MET and ENV conditions will be smaller. This means that your super-sonic flight range is going to be farther and your long range precision is higher. Remember, the closer to Trans-sonic flight your bullet is, the less accurate it becomes. This is also a general rule and some bullets are more susceptible to this effect than others are.

This slant angle effect ties in nicely with the effects of swept space. Remember that swept space increases on ground that is sloping away from the shooter. The target has to move farther in or out to get out of the cone of fire. Because the trajectories for a slant range shot is lower (lower maximum ordinate), the swept space is increased even more. You get the double effect of gain from sloping away ground (increased swept space) and a lower maximum ordinate (the danger space is increased).

Here is the simple formula for slant range correction.

Range to Target = 900 Meters
Angle of Line to Target = 30? (COS) = .86603 Correction Factor
900 Meters (true range) X .86603 = 779.5 Meters Slant Range

Remember your corrected range is ALWAYS SMALLER. If you get a bigger number than your original range, you made a mistake. Also, the effects for wind, air temp, etc. are calculated for the original True Range to the target. That's becauase there is still 900 meters of AIR between you and the target. Yor windage for example would be for 900 meters (4.50 MOA for and 8 mph wind at 914 meters). KNow this is long winded, hope it answers the question.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 12:32:10 (ZULU)

About your email, your address is no good, so i'm posting your response here, it's good info for all.

As for your problems past 1000 meters with the .338. Many factors are involved when shooting extreme range. The experience of the guy behind the the guy, is he intimidated, (many are) by the extreme range. What load are you using? What data are you using to get the range to the target? Or is this known distance stuff? Also, guns with muzzle breaks require some special shooting methods expecially ones with larger bores. The .338 is easily good enough, with a Dakota Arms .338 long bow i can easily shoot under 1 MOA out to 1600 yards, using the Sierra .300 grain matchking at 2850 fps. The Accuracy International is a good gun design, but the Dakota is more ergonomic and ergonomics is important when shooting extreme ranges. The AI guns do not "fit" as well as some of the guns made in the US. Ergonomics are an important part of gun design here, AI guns have a problem there.

What is the size of your targets and give me some of the conditions. When you say, they need 2 or 3 shots, is that because they are short or long of the target, or is it left and right hand misses. These are important to analyze your problem.

Dean
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 12:39:32 (ZULU)

I'll take a shot at your posting on the Barrel Twist / Accuracy primer. The Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association has some people that are some exceedingly smart fire arms guys. They are fortunate for this. Dr. Bob McCoy (used to be a ballistician at Aberdeen Proving Grounds) wrote an article that appeared in Very High Power 1996 #4 issue. It was an analysis of 3 types of military ammunition. Spark range testing determined that a 1:15" barrel twist provided the following gyroscopic stability factors M33 Ball 1.7, M8 API 1.8, Mk 211 1.9; all of those were out of 29" barrels. This was with the 1.15 inche twist. Mr. Mccoy stated that the guns would benefit from a slower 1:18" twist and would have an approximate 20% gain in accuracy. Why did they use a 1:15" twist, because of the multiple types of projectiles shot from the .50 caliber rifle.

Gyroscopic stability is acceptable at a figure of 1.2 Generally, heavier bullets require a faster twist rate vs. lighter bullets in the same caliber AND BULLET DESIGN. Solid bullets such as brass, bronze, or steel have different twist rates because of their different specific gravities for the metals.

Why does twist have a factor on accuracy? Because if the the bullet is not gyroscopically stable, the column or air being pushed by the bullet will push the nose around more as the bullet pitches and yaws in flight. The more incorrect the twist rate, the more pitch and yaw occurs and the more bullet is exposed to the front air column. As I think you know, Palma shooters sometimes use different guns at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. They have different twist and are using a twist optimally selected for the range. All things considered a gun is rifled for only one bullet, for only one range and velocity, but that's not realistic nor cost effective, so twist rates are a decent compromise.

A good point is the SLAP round in the .50 caliber rifle. They have terrible accuracy 350 gr. penetrator at 3950 fps. They need a radically different twist rate to be fired with precision. You then need a gun with a quick change barrel to shoot the bullet, that's easy enough though. Damn, this got long winded, i'm done for a while, need to rest how.. :)
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 12:56:08 (ZULU)

CJ
Cayley J Carson <T18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 13:23:44 (ZULU)

Matt,
I have shot a 30-284 and they are quite accurate, anyway the one I shot was, but it was built as a BR rifle and had a Hall action with a 1.5 inch barrel and the barrel was 28" long for added velocity. I believe he was pushing a 168 sierra 3000fps. and as I remember you just use 30-06 load data for that round. Hope this helps I realize its not much but its and uncommon caliber.

Jim,
On the OAL of the 308s, I try to load them as long as possible and still have them fit the magazine. An old rifle shooter once told me a good rule of the thumb for reloading is that 30 cal. bullets like to be out to the lans and 22s like a little jump and anything inbetween is anybodies guess.(HA) In fact though I have found this to be true. If you are shooting a stock rifle you will probably never get the bullet out far enough to cause you any pressure problems because it was seated to deep into the rifling. With the 308, as a rule the closer the bullet is to the rifleing the better the accuracy. You need to get a bullet comparator if you really want to do accurate OAL this measures off the ogive of the bullet and not the tip, which can vary in length due to manufacturing or tip design.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 13:28:18 (ZULU)

I am telling you guys that have not bought data books yet Buy two. One from TRGY and the other from Dean Michaels. They work very well together and share a wealth of information.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 15:14:41 (ZULU)

Great scopes to put on the rifles and training also. I am one happy UnDude.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 17:10:46 (ZULU)

To JR; Getting a bit tired bout this, and maybe i read your post the wrong way, but did you mean i need to get of my high horse and i knocked a guy down?????????????

To STeve and Pat; thanks for the reply's, very informative, steve, and once more, maybe its my way of putting english words in a wrong context, i dont mean to be disrespect full of your more "mature man", its just that i wanted to explain that just pulling the trigger aint gonna win a war, and i dont nessecarely mean "old" guys when i'm talking bout the beerbelly'd one's (those are still to be reckonned with cause they alrdy seen it all), i actually ment your young slobs, the guys in their 20's and 30's who alrdy cant see there...., like for instance check yours and our police force, except for the guys that came from a army unit before they joined the police force, most of the blue wearing guys are overweighted donut eating fatso's who cant even outrun a bone-skinned druggie, watch your own "cops" or other reality tv shows.
Hope to hear your results soon, Pat.

To B.Rogers; Thanks for the reply,m8, i like your input, we might not agree but atleast we can reason and discus with eachother as civilized man should...
And once again, yup, i dont agree, yes maybe you and some of the other honourable man on this site would fight for their freedom till they died trying, but like i said, check your neighbours, check the rest of the people living in your city's, do you really believe that most of them could and more importantly would fight back?
And about me deleting the stuff i read here....HELL NO! In fact i am absorbing every bit of info i am getting on this site like one big spons(again dont know the wright english word, i mean one of those things you use to wash the car with,which absorbs

huge amounts of water, the expensive ones are coming from the sea, know what i mean?)

To Jim Castagno; Never exceed the lenghts given to you by the books to stay on the safe side, however if you want them to be more accurate then your guess is wright, a bit longer will make it more accurate, you should try to make the cartridge just long enough that the bullets tip/nose "just" touches the rifling of your barrel, this way the bullet wont "hop/jump" in to your barrel, but watch out with semi-auto's like ar15's etc, better stick with them on the normal lenghts or you will most shourly get "jams". Hope this helps you.

To Mike O'brien; you're wright about the free speech, totally agree, and we shourly dont have to act like boys in a church quire(dont know the good english word for the singing kids), but i think everybody would like it more if we acted as grown-up man and reply in a honourable fashion.

To Chris; Thanks for the info, KIWI- m8!
Been getting nothing but good reply's about your army, some of my colleagues met them in bosnia, never even knew that even kiwi's had been to bosnia,:)

To Trigger50; Our army just bought a bunch of those Barret M82-a1's, and i even got to fire one at 1000meters, must say i was impressed (my group size was 51 cm's and i know the gun could do much better), and our specops guys are gonna use it as a anti-material gun, but now i read you writing as if it were worth rats shit...
Do you have any more info on the gun, the pro's and con's would be much obliged.
And thanx for the slant info, very interesting and helpfull indeed, but still dont know the englis shortcuts; MET and ENV, where do they stand for?
About the .338; we are using the .338 lapua magnum,made for sniping factory loads,furthermore i'm talking bout known distances and yes our AI SM have muzzlebrakes and our target are standard military ones, about 40 cm's wide and aprroxamately 160cm's long(not sure so offhand) and the misses are mostly long or short, because we tend to think the left and right misses are due to loss of concentration.
When you are talking about the Dakota, is this a military sniper rifle or a civilian built longe rang shooter? Because although we had a little say in what type of gun we wanted, we surely never would have gotten a civilian one because they are just not rugget enough for our job, those super accurate guns are good shooting weapons, but wouldnt last a day in our military hands....And the AI can take a beating.

To CJ; although i still dont agree, i am getting the picture by now, but thanks anyway for your reply.

To Mike; you are one lucky dude!!

To all; pardon me for my sometimes very long replys and posts, but due to the fact that i am most of my time in the army and my spare time filling up with gun and sniping related hobby's and my two trotters, this leave me very little time left to reply in a normal fashion so i try to reply to as many as possible in one big posting, hope you all understand.

yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.

Marco aka McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 18:47:03 (ZULU)

I hope everybodys having fun at SMTC.
Bob <rvl@inil.com>
Hotter than hell in Chicago, USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 19:39:48 (ZULU)

Yours truly,

McNab

PS; hope it rains like hell in west-virginia, stefan, cus you being there and me being here means you deserve to get whet and tired!!
you lucky son of a b....!

Nec Temere Nec Timide
Marco aka McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 19:54:07 (ZULU)

I am unable to locate a right handed VS in 308 (discontinued) or a PSS (what are the real differences between the 700PSS and the 700Police?)

I would like to hear some opinions on an alternative bolt gun for use in the 300-1000 yd range. Rifle less optics should be under $1000.

TIA

The Other Chris
The Other Chris <titleman@stellar.net>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 21:49:44 (ZULU)

Now I have not gone out of my way to insult you or your country because I have a limited knowledge of the place. It just doesn't make the world news to often. I will say one thing, if you are spending time watching "Cops" you need to get a life. Unplug the TV turn off the game shows and no more Trash TV.

I would also see a therapist about this thing you have toward the US. Learn to deal with your anger before you fall to far off the edge. This is Sniper Country and if you want to learn something stick around. If you want to throw insults take a hike.
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 22:16:05 (ZULU)

'lito
Paul "Pablito" Coburn <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, June 07, 1999 at 23:22:18 (ZULU)

Mike M,Of whom do you speak TRGY?Somebody gimmee some e-mail addy's.

Sorry this is off topic but I'm afraid all that is being said in current pissing match is falling on deaf ears(but they do make Heineken)
Bruce E . <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 02:06:16 (ZULU)

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 02:08:37 (ZULU)

Congratulations on your score with US Optics. Now that you have an in with those guys maybe you could find out why the scope I ordered is so late (it was promised in 4 weeks and it is now come up on 8). Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>  provided the most information on these scopes before I bought one, so if you want any "independent" information on them, he is the man to talk to. Sarge got his sling.

Steve
EyeMan <stepmont@dfn.com>
Area 51 Sec B, NM, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 02:11:18 (ZULU)

I can understand this. Anyone have an opinion of the HS Precision tactical guns?

They use their own improved and greatly modified Remington type receivers (made from scratch, not just tuned and a few parts replaced like some other purpose built sniper guns based on the Remington action). HS also coats entire action and barrel in matte black teflon, so I would say that high resistance against corrosion is a sure thing. Another thing I noticed is that they make R type barrels (like Mike Rock) using a radiused land that improved velocity and reduces fouling. Saw nothing but good things in the Sniper Country archives about R type barrels. Finally they use faster springs and a steel tipped aluminum firing pin to speed up lock time.

In short, is the HS Precision gun in the same league as Chandler, Armament technologies, etc. I do not think anything can match the AI gun as its PURPOSE!! built from the action up to be a sniper gun, but I cannot afford an AI. I can barely afford the HS gun but it is available in up to .338 Lapua magnu, for less than 1/2 price of an AI.
Dave M. <willflyt44@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 04:11:42 (ZULU)

About a month or so ago there was still a right-handed Rem 700VS in .308 on the shelf here at a local gunshop, and another shop said they had 4 in their warehouse, FWIW.

If you want me to, and can swing by both tomorrow afternoon and see what might still be available and let you know.

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Vol-city, TN, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 04:23:42 (ZULU)

Brownells site ( http://brownells.com ) has a huge selection of parts and supplies for almost every firearm.

The items they have available in their searchable online catalog are too numerous to mention. They also have secure online ordering.
Brian M. <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 04:27:34 (ZULU)

The way I was taught to measure maximum OAL for a bolt action is as follows,

Take the rifle, a cleaning rod with a jag attached, the bolt, the projectile to be used and a roll of masking tape and a pen and follow this procedure…

STEP 1
Insert and close the bolt in the rifle, slide the cleaning rod down the barrel from the muzzle, until the jag contacts the bolt face, withdraw the rod slightly and wrap a piece of masking tape around the rod, re-insert the rod into the barrel, mark on the masking tape the place where the rod exits the bore.

STEP 2
Remove the bolt from the rifle, drop the projectile into the chamber, give it a couple of taps to engage it into the lans, slide rod down barrel from muzzle again, don’t use enough force to dislodge the projectile, now touch the end of the jag to the end of the projectile and withdraw the rod slightly, wrap with masking tape and re-insert. Mark the place on the masking tape where the rod exits the bore.

STEP 3

Measure the distance between the two marks on your cleaning rod, this will give you the maximum overall length with the bullet contacting the lans, now subtract 10 thou and load a round to this length, once you have done this, make sure the safety is engaged and insert the round in the chamber, close the bolt and open again, inspect the projectile for marks from the lans, if the projectile has no marks, now try in the Magazine, chances are that it won’t fit, however that is your procedure for finding the maximum overall length.

PS. You must do this for every new brand/type of projectile you use as the ogive shape on the projectile affects the Maximum overall length attainable.

Dave Groves <david.groves@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Canberra, ACT, Australia - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 04:31:10 (ZULU)

Brownells Website

Enjoy.

Brian M. <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
CA, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 04:35:00 (ZULU)

This might be a homework project for you. About eight years ago the NRA wrote an article featuring a grad student working on accuracy in .22 match rifles. This article showed the effects of velocity deviation and how it related to the position of the barrel at the moment of the bullets exit. Could you on trip to the library check the electronic card catalog to see if it is present.

Roger - Near Gainesville, not a gator fan
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 06:35:57 (ZULU)

I think that H&S Precision is one of the "quiet" and low profile sniper rifle builders that are making one of the finest products on the market. An H&S gun is well worth the money and yes, they are durable. Their stock as you may know is the basis for the M-24 Sniper Weapons System, arguably one of the best .308 class light sniper rifles in the world, yep better than the M40 by far (my humble opinion). The H&S 2000 action takes the best of Remington and Winchester and makes it a very affordable package especially when used with one of their 5R barrels and 10X rifling.

M-24s survive terrible abuse, many times at the hands of untrained guys because many army units do not control who gets them as much as you might think. Yep, even in Special Forces (army), I have seen unqualified guys shoot the M-24 simply because their team was assigned two and no one was qualified to shoot it, let alone the care and cleaning of it. The H&S stock system provides a repeatable bedding block vs. the conventional bedding block. In a .308 rifle, I would take an H&S over any other gun out there, including the famous M40 and the Accuracy International. Dollar for Dollar, the H&S beats the AI hands down. Shot em both side by side many times, the M-24 hasn't lost yet.

H&S offers an excellent take down gun that repeats its zero with no loss, but is guaranteed to less that a half MOA. Hope this helps you.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 12:40:15 (ZULU)

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 13:10:15 (ZULU)

Dave,
The H&S will make a fine rifle for you, they have and excellent product and outstanding workmanship. You can call them and they will work with you if you need anything special or out of the ordinary.

Remington VS or PSS,
Any one looking for the VS and can't find one, like someone mentioned, you can just buy the regular varmint rifle and put it in the H&S stock and have the same thing. The only difference is the finish one is shiny the other is flat. If you don't like the finish paint it or have it reblued to the matte finish. I wanted the 260 and they only make it in the VLS so I put it in a PSS stock and painted it now I have what I want!! Just my thoughts on it.

Range finders,
My buddy with the new Bushnell 1000s is home from vacation and says there great!! But I want to check them for myself under field conditions next to the lecia's to see how well they work on tactical targets. I hope to get out tonight to start the testing so I will keep you all informed.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 13:22:45 (ZULU)

Pete, you have to market your device. I will ship the sling today. Purple with pink dots right?

US Optics: I was very impressed with Mr. Willaims on the phone. I look forward to his course on optics.

I am going to run a basic rifle class for civilians this summer. It will be a two day designed to show you what you need in equipment and how to practice. More or less a get ready for a full school class. It will not have all the things Storm Mountain teaches. It is really designed so you are ready to go and have fun at the Mountain. Basics only with a real idea of what equipment to buy and make. Should be in August.

Jerry rice is the guy in Calif to have your rifles done by. Call him at 707-558-8977. He is in the Bay Area.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 14:40:41 (ZULU)

Is it true you're offering a special"fleece" lined Fly Boy version to be distributed only in the Ohier valley? Speaking of "Fleece" where is that Esmeralda luving Al O. at ??????

Pablito,
You LUCKY stiff you............ keep me updated.

Guys,

Check out Marius' fine work in the Hot Tips & Cold Shots section. The man has been awful busy and deserves kudos for the efforts.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 15:06:44 (ZULU)

Old Dog

Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 15:50:42 (ZULU)

Phone number, address, etc.....

Do they have a website?

Thanks,

Roy Hill
Roy Hill <rhill@mickey.gc.whecn.edu>
Gillette, WY, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 16:13:53 (ZULU)

Others: Which caliber is a better choice for long range: .338 Lapua Mag. or .300 Win Mag. Ammunition and reload components availability and costs wise ?

thank you.
nhatrang62 <nhatrang62@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 17:06:17 (ZULU)

Without a doubt the .338 Lapua is a better long range gun/caliber. The .300 grain Sierra Matchking from a Dakota Arms Longbow is driven at 2850 fps. The super-sonic range for that load is about 1600 yards under standard atmospheric conditions. For the .300 Win Mag with a 220 grain bullet at 2820 fps, the SS range is about 1450. The super sonic range pretty much determines your max effective range due to gyroscopic instability when a bullet starts to slow down to sub-sonic flight.

Cost of maintaining a .338 is higher in ammo, but the larger bores last longer. (Lothar-Walther special chrome molly barrels). In testing a Longbow, i was able to keep under 1 MOA at 1600 yards. The .338 is also more effective in fighting the wind wars.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 17:31:32 (ZULU)

My experience with the M82 goes a ways back. The guns can be made to shoot, and as with all .50s, not just anyone can crawl in behind one and make it sing either. I have seen Master class NRA position shooters not be able to shoot a .50 at all. Part of it is the muzzle brake. You CANNOT muscle a .50 around on a target like a .308 gun. If you try to influence it, the cold air piston in front of the bullet will have the muzzle brake pulling the gun off of your point of aim as your muscles quickly relax when the gun goes off. You have to "neutrally" shoot the gun. No muscle tension, no pushing and pulling the gun on target. Sandbag the front and rear and dont' get heavy with the pistol grip.

What ammo are you using in it? The Raufoss, Greentip? About the .338 problems. At ranges past 800 meters MET (METeorological, that being air temperature, and barometric pressure) and ENV (ENVironmental, that being slant angle to the target, ammo temp, gun chamber temp) also affect the flight trajectory and muzzle velocity of the cartridge. At ranges where you are talking about, you need to be able to correct for the MET and ENV conditions. Left and right misses are usually do to bad wind estimates or bad wind data for the gun/load. Long and short are either bad range determinations or bad MET and ENV corrections or lack of those corrections. A 10 degree air temperature change at 1500 meters is 27" high or low on the target.

The Dakota Arms is a heavy Winchester Pre-64 type action with some modifications by Dakota Arms. They use the McMillan A-2 stock and a Leupold Mark IV, M-1 16X scope. They build their own ammo for the gun at the plant. It is pillar bedded and exceedingly strong. The best .338 Lapua on the market in my humble opinion.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 17:45:18 (ZULU)

The ONLY way that guns COULD be 100% reclaimed is with house to house searches by heavily armed military who are willing to take casualties and dish a few out (quite probably killing a few children in the deal). Anything less than that would either be ineffective (as in a don't ask don't tell type scenario) or a potential bloodbath of dead enforcement officers. I'm sure I don't have to elaborate, even to McNabb, on the number of specific consitutional edicts that would have to be broken on that one.

What about Americans who elect to hide their guns non-violently, rather than turn them in. If the Police decide that you have buried your guns in the back yard, who is going to pay for digging it all up? What about if you buried your guns in a coopereative neighbor's yard (who, not being a gun owner, would not be a target of a search)? Will each city government put up the cost of digging up every back yard in the city to catch a few errant .22s, then pay the court costs of fighting all those illegal search and siezure cases and the jail costs to follow?

Another thing to be taken into account is the willingness of whomever is to reclaim our guns (again, realistically local police and BATF) to support such a measure. Yes, some highly ranked and highly visible members of law enforcement are outspoken in their support of absolute gun control and banning, but is the rank and file LE officer? Most that are willing to say, don't seem too willing to go around taking the guns away from regular citizens, nor do they see it as the real problem. Would LE officers "revolt" if such a repeal of the Second Amendment was passed? Would any LE officers resign, rather than be a part of any gun reclaiming effort? Might that be a majority? Then what?

Maybe many Americans ARE weak and more interested in watching COPS than in even owning a gun. Maybe 99% of gun owners would surrender their guns completely without a fight, but what about those who do not? I'd be far more afraid of a man with a rifle that he knows how to use well, then 10 "ganstas" with HK .45s that they shoot while holding sideways (Carlos Hathcock -vs- the Crips, who would YOUR money be on?). I think most LEs would feel the same way, and would not look forward to taking away the rifle of a man that can kill at 1000 yards. Killing him would be the only answer, and how many LE officers would be killed in the attempt?

Note: no offence intended here against you LEs on this site, I'm just trying to be realistic.

Was the Soviet Army in Afganistan fully backed by their government? I know that some Soviet vets have had issues with their subsequent treatment, but short of using weapons of mass distruction, were the Sovietes going full bore? If so, we can probably throw out the Vietnam analogy used earlier, in favor of this one. (and I think we can assume that weapons of mass distruction would NEVER be used against any peoples of the United States by their own government, if it still has ANY legality left). Would/could small pockets of Americans put up a fight comparable to the Mujahadin? Sure, if they wanted to.

I saw some news footage of an event in Canada the other day. The police were making everyone walk though a metal detector before entering. I understand Canada to have to very restrictive handgun laws, yet these people were still being checked for weapons. Seems like banning things doesn't neccessarily make them go away or make you any safer, huh?

Enough of this soapbox of speculation. If you own a gun, join the NRA. If you know someone else who owns a gun, ask them to join the NRA. Then write a letter to your Senator & representative. Let them know that you urge them to support enforcement of current law, rather than new unenforceable ones. Believe me, a huge upsurge in NRA membership accompanied by a letter writing campaign by gun owners and supporters would be all that is needed in the end. NOBODY can be looking forward to trying to enforce an all out ban. Give the statistitians and pollsters the numbers they need to "prove" that most Americans would not support further gun measures. No reasnable politition will still be able to support gun banning with even 25% of gun owners being NRA members and 100% making their voices heard. Unfortunately far fewer even raise a finger to support their own rights.

Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 18:24:05 (ZULU)

Maybe its because i am making long hard days and only can respond here late at night when im much tired, and therefor make some stupid mistakes by insulting Twat after Twat, again and again.

To Mike M; Let me say just this on the subject, didnt mean intentionelly to put down or insult you or any other cop, although i actually did, i only was trying to proove my point, maybe in a wrong fashion.

I still do, though, believe that the majority, not all, but the majority of your people including the police force are overweighed, simply because that is the "picture" i am getting from newspapers, news shows(american and european ones), food/health magazines and from first hand experiences from my friends who have been to your country many times(my own brother and sister in law are goin every year to the usa).Some people just dont dare to hold a mirror to their society and accept the truth of the state its in.
But lets not get into a "my country is better than yours" discussion.

O, and about getting a life...hah, i dont even own a tv, havent got the bloody time to watch it, its just that i got a thing for real cops in action, so i like to watch the "reality" programs, and have them all taped so i can watch them in the weekend.

Anger? I dont feel any anger towards you or your country at all.
Maybe you are wright about me seeing it for myself in your country, and then form my opinion, and thats just what i am going to do, either this year or when i come back from my tour in the balkans, next year january.

And your on for the "RING" thing, i'm always up for a bit of friendly "confrontation"....

But once more you are wright, i am gonna stick to my sniperstuff from now on for real, for we will never agree on this subject, for many of you feel attacked on just about every subject and i am not about to just "give inn" to your point of vieuw, because i aint no yes-knodder who agrees to just about everything, just because some people say it is so.
Sniping it shall be.

So hoping we still can correspond on sniping stuff,

yours truly,

McNab

NEC TEMERE NEC TIMIDE.
Marco aka McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 19:12:50 (ZULU)

And i would just about have giffen anything to see that fight;"Carlos Hathcock vs The Cribbs"...
My money would have been on the White Feather, of course.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 19:34:18 (ZULU)

We only shoot full metall-jacket bullets with our .338, we have asked for the armour piercing ones but no luck so far.
Didnt even know they had a Raufoss bullet in .338?

Guess we maybe are underestimating the wheather influeences which could explain a bit for the long or short shots.

yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.

McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 19:55:20 (ZULU)

Does this answer your question Doc?
Giving up <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 21:30:34 (ZULU)

Concerning the durability of the .338 Longbow. The McMillan stock is state of the art and has been as far as strength is concerned. Nearly inpossible to destroy. Doing damage to this stock would require the same amount of abuse to damage the AI stock / chassis system. Then as far as the action/barrel is concerned. The thinner AI barrel is more susceptible to damage (which in either gun is unlikely). That leaves the action / stock interface. The AI system clearly is stronger, but does that mean that the Longbow system is weaker? Not necessarily. The Longbow is bedded essentially the same way as the M40 and other pillar bedded guns built over the years. It is bedded into Devcon. Put it this way, the kind of energy and shock that it would take to render the stock or barreled action damaged for sniper operations is likely to destroy the scope sitting on the gun. In either case, you're up the creek.

The point is this, to abuse both rifles to failure would put extremes on either gun that probably no gun/sight system could survive. Understand my point??? As far as sub-systems go, the trigger is simpler an bullet proof in the Dakota action. The safety is also failsafe and the most proven safety system around, in my opinion. Barrel life on the Longbow is longer, in my experience. Thanks for the ear.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 08, 1999 at 21:54:11 (ZULU)

Roy Hill:

Ya asked about information to get in touch with H-S Precision, so I guess I'll give it to ya. LOL.

H-S Precision Inc.
1301 Turbine Drive
Rapid City SD 57701

ph# (605) 341-3006 (ask for Janet, she'll fix ya up)

we have a website also, can't remember the address, sumthin like hsprecision.com

Trigger, dude!!

hey, I don't make 5r barrels, 5r have 5 radials, or lands. I use a 6 radial design, radius the intersection between land and groove, and we call 'em 10x rifling. I guess you could call 'em 6r barrels if it turns yer crank!!

MikeM:

hey, I heard McMillan was throwin' a Shilen hummer on their rig. All I can say is I think they're gonna need all the help they can get, hahahah!!!

take it easy fellers

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city , sd, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 00:13:57 (ZULU)

Bruce
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 00:28:15 (ZULU)

I sent Badger Ord a check for some scope rings on May 27. At the time I ordered Marty said he had some in stock, how long should I expect to wait till he gets them out to me?

Casey
Casey <caseyb@scs.unr.edu>
Nevada, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 01:59:23 (ZULU)

The answer about the data book is....(drumroll)

3.

or ohio,
or Al O,
or 1/4 20 pitch,
or shaved farm goats,
or...

damn man, some of us would answer (especially for JaschkDanshiels)
but some of us dont know the answer.

Seriously, hope you find out.
buk
PS M, Where is the damn spellchecker? heh.
buk <bukowski@bellsouth.net>
Crappydamnhotin, Louisiana, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 02:01:08 (ZULU)

Anyone know the difference in weight on a #7 Stainless barrel between a 24" and a 26"?

Also, how much velosity (of say GM 308M) loss is there going from 26" to 24".
Thanks.
Mike S <mws@ecom.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 04:56:10 (ZULU)

I feel like I am beating a dead horse, but it is about freedom, and not just guns. I have noticed alot of talk about long range shots, and fighting with firearms, but it is much more than that. It would be civil unrest. The politicians, the wealthy, and the media would become targets of direct violence, and not necesarily with firearms. This is the only way to beat a military force, from a civilian point.
The violence we face in America, is from lack of education,and moral decay. 20 years ago there was just as many gun owners on a percentage basis, but alot less violence, and murder. It's not the guns.

Scout <101stairborne@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 05:09:40 (ZULU)

Thanks for all the break-in & base info. I realize I will have to replace the stock on my Savage 10FP sometime. Who else makes replacements stocks for it, besides Choate? Any experiences with any of them?

Thanks
Joe
Joe <Joef5@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 09:35:47 (ZULU)

Jimmy <paranoideyes@mindspring.com>
Birmingham, AL, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 14:09:03 (ZULU)

In defense of McNab:

Guys, We ALL have to understand that the perception of our cousins abroad is totally tainted by what they see presented to them by our media or by their own media. Movies, news, opinion TV, day time TV. If you use any of these outlets to form your opinion on ANY subject (and how can’t you? After all, what alternative is there short of living here? And not too many can just go do that) your views will, by default, be molded by what ever spin is presented to you via that medium. So don’t be angry with McNab. The guy raises valid issues based on his read of this US as presented abroad. We can all have a little myopia when it comes to our various nationalities and beliefs. A smart man looks beyond this and tries to understand where the other guy is coming from before firing a broadside.

Frankly, the guys raises some good points. Lets look at gun control for a sec and the general populations disinterest. If I have my facts straight, something like 2% of the US population supported the war of independence. As it wore on, the tide turned and more and more of the civilian population chose to support the revolution against England. How couldn’t they as they saw the abuse first hand. But MANY people gave their lives or freedom up to the cause BEFORE it was popular. Those who signed the declaration of independence effectively signed a death warrant against themselves. There was no TV to spin the side of England each day. So the colonials eventually came around.

Now lets compare that to today. Our forefathers, both famous and common, had little in the way of distraction or sloth. They had to work hard from dawn to dusk to make their lives succeed. Communities were small and people were a bit more serious about their politics and freedom. Today, most of the population is living in a fantasy land of TV, sports, sit coms, and self gratification. Only a few percent even bother to vote. Sloth and self gratification seem far more the norm than in 1770. Most seem to genuinely believe that the role of gov’mint is to TAKE CARE OF THEM. Those that ARE serious about these issues are often to busy making a living to find time to get to the poles. They seem to hope that someone else will do it or they fatalistically believe their vote won’t matter.

Now lets be totally honest and self critical here. Given a total ban do you honestly think in today’s environment of gratification and self possession that anyone but the most avid would raise a finger against the enforcement officials coming to confiscate your freedom? Hell, people are people and their nature would be just like those in 1938 Germany or the USSR. I think you’d see a lot of: As long as it happens to the OTHER guy, and they do not knock on "MY" door, all is well. Give "me" TV or give me Death!

Sure, you might get 2% to stand tall and fight for their rights. But I seriously doubt you’d get the eventual popular support like they did in the 1770s. Why? Our population has lost its core beliefs. Freedom has become a term to blast in the media and in the collective conscious of the nation because it forces HARD choices based on personal responsibility. TRUE freedom (as opposed to the Urban kind that has taken over our nation) might fly out in the boonies but you’ll never make it work near any large urban center were entrenched liberalism rules the day. People have been successfully propagandized to feel that gun ownership is something to feel guilty about! Ask any well meaning yuppie in the city. Anywhere. They either have no opinion or have one in line with that media hound and general schmuck, Chucky Schumer. Worse, they will avidly defend their positions with out even knowing WHY! Critical thinking does not exist. Hell half the people here do not think beyond what to watch tonight, Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Sports TV. Am I being to harsh here?

At any rate, you can hardly jump on McNab for raising issues that make us gun owners hot under the collar. Our very own population hardly gives a crap about their own politics. Hell, they get more upset over being charged a $1.50 for using a MAC or MOST card at a bank -- All the while swallowing while the gov’mint effectively puts a gun to their collective heads each and every year and steals over 40% of their income! If you add in ALL taxes, gas, income, housing, local property, ad nausea, they steal over 50%. This is as close to slavery as a free man can get. AND WE TAKE IT! You think Joe-Q-public is going to give a sh*t if we lose our gun rights? Hell, he’ll have completely MISSED the event since he was too damn busy watching ESPN that night, drinking beer and leering at the cheer leaders. "Give me E! of give me death."

Do I paint an overly dark picture? I hope so. I pray I am wrong. But we have had 50 years of slow and insidious political and media propaganda which has led our most intelligent people, those that vote the most, into thinking socialism and big government is the way to go. We HAVE become soft. We have become a nation of TV addicts. My God people, we PAY for TV! We GOT’s to Have it! M-Tv has raised half our kids. Call me a pessimist but it scares me.

Are militias, and patriot groups the answer? An emphatic NO!! Why? Because they have fallen for their own propaganda. In essence they have helped the media paint them in a bad light. Worse, those that are honest have been completely illigitemized by the acts of others and by the media. If you really want representation you have to vote. Period. You have to win the three branches of government through the polls. DO we even have the will to do this? Probably not. If we did every registered voter would be a libertarian. But we do not actually seem to believe in REAL freedom anymore. Just the republican or democrat versions. And before you go off, I am a registered Rep. Even I am too weak to go all the way and choose the Libertarian party, even though it is probably our only hope to save this nation from itself politically.

Political Commentary on SC. I left the roster alone in part because it gets sucked into politics (or fighting) at least once a week. No matter how hard we try, it always gets back there. This is understandable due to the current political climate. As you can see by my post above, even I can not help myself. But we HAVE to try. I chose to elaborate above because McNab was getting a bad rap due to some misperceptions. But we REALLY need to keep SC non-political. Or at least centered on its direction.

Talk about soap boxes…all I really wanted to say was give McNab a break!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 14:21:51 (ZULU)

Sounds like a good comprehensive test. The Leica is a superior product and GG&G makes an adapter that allows the AN/PVS-15 to be attached for night ops.

Want to see something interesting try lasing across a lake surface to targets on the other side. thanks for posting that information, very good stuff.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 15:06:09 (ZULU)

Mr. Hexa _ Are you still out there ? How are you doing ? How does the .338 LM project going ? Good shooting !

Gents _ I appreciate input from all on this caliber subject, thanks !
nhatrang62 <nhatrang62@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 15:09:47 (ZULU)

Scott, most of the time we agree but not today my friend. I see and deal with our people every day. This is a great country and a great people. McNab is wrong and so are you. The problems we face are the same every other generation has. We just have to step forward and do something. Complaining about the other guy not doing anything is not a problem solving technique. As Nike says "Just do it"

As to the rest of the world we pretty much dominate in everything. Now that is a big task and will not make you friends. Many places would like to knock us down a notch or two. That is what we hear from McNab. A little jealousy. He comes from a land that few have been to and fewer care to go. I mean it is not the vacation spot of the world. I think I will option some place tropical first.

Enough of McNab

Choate Stocks: I had one and it is OK for a cheap stock. I think I would spend a little more and get an HS or McMillan instead. They are lighter and stronger. Much better work.

JR, you are a tease. By the way McMillan is using a Scheider BBL and it may beat your piece to my front door.

Class: It will probably be in August. Two days either a combination of two of the my available Weds Thurs Friday RDO's. I have to work on the weekends and Mon Tues(Us Fat Cops). Again this is a basic to get you ready to go to a full class. Lots on basic shooting techniques and equipment needs. What I am thinking is $175.00 each and I will throw in a sling (So I only have to work with one type). That will include the range fees. Minimum number of students will be ten and max twelve. I will try to get back to everyone that emailed me today or tomorrow.

Hey I have an idea. Lets keep this site to shooting and stay off of politics.

Mike The Undude
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 15:15:24 (ZULU)

Scott,
As usual, well put, but like Mike says I don't agree with it all.

Tony,
I have never seen the Swarovski so I couldn't say how it is. I am just lucky enough to have such a good friend who lets me borrow his Lecia's.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 16:20:52 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 16:25:51 (ZULU)

Speaking of getting your feathers ruffled. I haven't forgot about you either peteR. Esmerelda is doing quite nicely and I am still trying to work up that load to take you to task. So far the 168 grainers are working the best with Vit 550 powder, and Varget a close 2nd.

Pat: I'm am very interested in your 260 Rem (6.5 x 308). Could you ssshare with us your bullet powder, primer combo you are using to obtain these great groups. It has alsways being a round which I have always wanted to build, but haven't as of yet. But I'm working on it. (I just have to convince Andria that I need another $2000.00) So far she has said "OK, anything you like Al! I just don't want to push my luck too much. Anyway. Are you using the 140 Sierra MK and if you are how do they stabilize in the wind. Whats the twist in the barrel (1-9 or faster). I'll give you a quarter for the information.

Also anyone have have any good luck with using the 155 Sierra Palma bullets in you 308s.

Thanx in advance everyone.

al o.
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@NLS.NET>
Back in the Saddle agin, smokin' a fine cee-gar and writin' to yous folks from , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 20:39:58 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 21:16:11 (ZULU)

Hey, not trying to steal thunder from Pat, But:
First of all, I'm shooting molyed bullets..
260 Rem:
8 twist barrel..
Sierra 142MK 44.0 gr N160. Seat to touch lans, 0.010" off lans, or seat to magazine feed...they all have worked well for me. The seat to mag. feed I got from Pat.

Berger 140 gr vld 38.0 gr Varget. I've found Bergers like to touch or be seated slightly into lans.

I'm still not totally satisfied with 140 Sierra MK loads yet. 45.0 gr of N160 will give me 1/2 MOA out to 300yd. I've not had the chance to test at longer ranges.

I've used Remington 260 brass but have found that the primer pockets are enlarging after 3 firings. I bought some Winchester brand brass in .243 and necked up. I fireformed and then tested (just this past weekend) with just neck sizing. Worked like a charm. Using Berger 140's with 38 gr Varget, I got 5 and 6 shot gps of 1 inch at 300 yds. I also use Rem 9 1/2 primers. I would love to test this load at longer ranges. No pressure signs with the above loads, but if you're not using moly, I would suggest decreasing Varget charge to 37.0 gr at least. The 44.0 N160 is probably okay. TorF says it's a low pressure load anyway.

Al, this is just off the top of my head (read both neurons are firing rapidly), I have kept load records as well as a sort of log of rifle use and performance. Say the word and I'll go check 'em and give your some more data. Pat has been great about send me stuff...Thanks Pat!

Hope this helps some.

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <jeff_a308@yahoo.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 22:36:46 (ZULU)

The TUNGSTEN BULLETS mentioned in the article by Bill Deane in Aug 1996 issue of Precision Shooting were powdered Tungsten, not solid. PRL is selling them to the Gov't for about $4 each. They still make them, but don't sell to the public.

"Corbin does offer a kit to produce Tungsten bullet's using there swaging process and powdered tungsten."

The Corbin is the same bullet, and the way to go.
Solid Tungsten cores are prohibited by the Federal Cop Killer Bullet law...$3000 license to make them.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 23:03:13 (ZULU)

Marco would tend to see things more our way if he were to live here for a while and socialize with us. It's tough to do a good leader's recon by just looking at a map.

Does anyone know what the heaviest practical bullet weight would be in .308? I'm going to start swaging bullets soon and will be able to make them as short or long as I want to (actually 1.3 inches max). I'm starting with a 175 grain rebated boat tail that will have a 6 spitzer ogive. Chris from NZ asked about tungsten powder. I could use this in place of lead. It's like, 1.7 times the weight of pure lead and so would make quite a heavy bullet in a .925 inch jacket.

How much work would it be to unblock the magazine of my Savage 110 FP in order to take advantage of all that mag room? I know the feed lips would have to be replaced (if possible) or just adjusted. I could then make some long, bore-riders with a 12 - 14 secant ogive and not have to seat them back to the flash hole. There's got to be a point of diminishing returns, given the case capacity of the .308 and the fact that I've only got a 24" barrel. The twist, as you all know is 1-10. Plenty of spin.

Sincerely,

Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Wednesday, June 09, 1999 at 23:29:23 (ZULU)

There 240 grain bullets available, but they won't fly in the savage...
they need an 8" twist. The 10 inch twist might do 200's ok.

See if you can find a source of dies that'll take longer jackets.
Read Corbin's book on bullet swaging... it's one of the best in the field... before you spend money.

And if you want to shoot really long bullets, you'll need a faster barrel on the Savage.

Pablito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 00:20:24 (ZULU)

Corbin's H dies will make, I believe, up to 2.5" long bullets. The trouble is that I don't have the $1217 for a 6 die set in the H size nor the $750 for the most inexpensive press that goes with it.

For the time being, I'll have to stick with the S dies. The press is on the way. While I'm saving the last few bucks for the dies, I'll have time to make the stand for it. All my stuff has to be modular and portable. Eventually I'll get Corbin's hydro-press but not any time soon. I've read Dave's Technical Bulletin, vol. III but should probably get the whole set.

Is there a website for J4 Jackets? I think it's a subsidiary of Spiveco but I haven't found much. I left a message for a guy named Tony East there at Spiveco in Los Angeles but haven't heard anything back. Whatever size bullets I make, this is going to be fun.

Does anyone else here swage his own bullets?
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 01:14:47 (ZULU)

Also the latest flaming sure takes a long time to wade through and
interferes with the good stuff. I am here for bullistics, not bull..!
Ron
Ropn Taylor <ghoti@gj.net>
Grand Junction, CO, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 02:22:00 (ZULU)

I was not aware that McNabb was not of US origin, sir I apologize for any insult I may have rendered towards you. I now know somewhat of why you think the way you do, you can't grasp the idea of the freedoms of which we have and fight to preserve. I understand your ignorance now. (not stupidity, just ignorance)

later

JR <mrpink@rapidnet.com>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 03:21:53 (ZULU)

Bruce Hilsabeck

Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Lawton/Ft.Sill, Oklahoma, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 03:44:00 (ZULU)

Remingtons have a very Mickey Mouse setup as far as that bolt release and it is a Rube Goldberg contraption if I ever saw one. Spray some degreaser in the slot to flush old (factory) oils out. This is the one area that I try to keep dry, but not successful because any oil on the bolt will eventually get down there. The release should have a little side play and the front of it should not rub on the front trigger pin. Make sure the pin is flush on that end.

That transfer bar on the side of the trigger can give trouble too. It has a lot of surface contact area and not much spring pressure to return it to its original location. This should be dry too. Also, the tip that bears against the bolt release has a very delicate relationship there. If the pressure of the bolt release is not applied absolutely correctly then the transfer bar will bind.

I've accumulated a cigar box full of Remington triggers and parts over the years and have a few transfer bars that just will not work. I've polished surfaces, bent tips etc. without success. It is just not a good setup a certainly could use some re-engineering. There use to be a spring loaded bolt release that screwed into the left side of the action, but it interfered with the iron sight base. I'm not sure if it was the Hart's who had it or not. It's probably still available through BR gunsmiths.

I'm surprised that these releases work at all, and just looking at one does not inspire much confidence. Just too much surface area and oddball leverages along with that goofy spring. The older 722s had a coil spring behind the release. I guess they are saving money by not drill a hole.
Ron N.

Ron N. <rcn8@accnorwalk.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 10:09:20 (ZULU)

Question's,Problem's

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 10:24:22 (ZULU)

While I'm not one of the believers that the Rem 700 is the best gun around... none of them are the best, or there would only be one, the others would go out of production!

There are enough self-generated wars on this site over stupid issues, or missunderstandings, we don't have to go out of our way to create them for entertainmant of the bored.
If all you want to do, is start arguments over which gun is better, then you have too much empty time on your hands, and need to get a hobby.

Why not start a thread on something productive, that relates to real tactical, or long range shooting, rather than the nintieth argument about "My favorite gun is better than your favorite gun??"

If you like it, buy one, and tell us what you're doing with it.

We have assholes like Klinton to start WW-III
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 11:36:35 (ZULU)

The Remington 700 as a stock production rifle is probably the "best" around for the $$. With work, it is a very accurate and reliable 600+ yard gun. It is not the best rifle for super accurate, high stress, extreme long range shooting. It is and can be quite adequate in the hands of first class shooters given proper optics and loads. I have used one operationally and it served me quite well. It carries well, but requires careful handling -- a definite negative in highly mobile operational environments. It was not designed as a "sniper weapon" but has been modified to fit the mission within its limitations. For the average shooter, it is within economic reach and I see more 700s at my courses than any other model. Most of us, myself included would like to have access to the hightech specialty guns now being produced, but it is cost prohibitive for most of us.

SMTC, for instance, has far greater restrictions on the weapons allowed at their courses than we do. Our philosophy is to train shooters to operate to their limits with weapons most frequently available for long range shooting. We have had great success and have consistently had our shooters do as well or better with their weapons than graduates of some of the other schools. The qualifier here is that my students have been with me for several years. It is to be expected that if students spent as much time at some of the other first rate schools, they should shoot better with superior equipment.

It still comes down to the man behind the trigger.

To rattle B. Roger's chain, I shoot an early model Ruger 77 with a Leopold 3-9x and can consistently make kill quality shots out to 600yds. Politically, I would not buy a Ruger product ever again just as I would carry my sidearm in a paper sack before I would purchase a
Galco product. The old model R-77 rifle is light and probably more in the genre of Cooper's Scout Rifle approach. Mission parameters, resources, etc. all have a bearing on what we can carry. All things considered. Buy the best you can afford, but be the best with what you have.
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
New Mexico, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 13:56:15 (ZULU)

Thanks!
Tim <tbcrabb@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 14:29:23 (ZULU)

On my last post: Mike, I am not sure my personal view of my fellow citizens is really all the bleak. Americans usually fight best with their back against the wall and the gun issue is no different. But I would like to light a fire under a few butts to get them thinking about their own freedoms. Maybe that is where I am coming from. I am not just complaining about the "other guy". If my words inflame a person go call their congress critter, I feel they were worth the space. We just take so much for granted. I have never taken my freedoms for granted and get worked up when others do. A fault of mine! Having lived in or near DC for so many years I was constantly exposed to people who just never could understand the meaning of our unique history. Instead they just chose to follow the indoctrination of the Washington Post and Handgun Control Inc. Then of course there is the DC politicians (local and national) that want to blame guns for every crime even though a gun is only used in something like 25% of violent crime. Why? They can not solve the problems so need a scape goat. Most crime is just plain old fashioned human evil. Guns have little to do with it. Anyway, arguing with these people daily has probably left me with a bit of a bitter taste for my fellow citizen. Their logic totally escaped me since crime when up when they banned guns in EVERY city in this nation! When you live in an urban environment where something like 80% of the population is a voting democrat and anti-gun, it sort of jades you! ;-)

But I do believe that many pro-gun folks are full of hot air when it comes to the so called "you'll get my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" saying. If a cop comes to your door do you really want to end your life or his? It is not a question to be answered lightly or boastfully. Right or wrong, he is doing his duty as it was defined to him by the "law". The LAW in this case being unconstitutional, but there is no supreme court justice in you house to educate him. He SHOULD refuse to do it anyway of course, at least if his oath was anything like the one we took in the military. But do you fight and kill an innocent man doing what his boss and governor said? Do you end your own life in the process and that of your family? Once you make that choice, nothing can ever be the same. Even should you survive there is no going back. The decision is bigger and holds more imort than the boastful think. I a not giving my opinion on whether you should or should not defend your home from the ATF, the Army or the local police. It is up to the individual. What I am saying is that faced with the reality of the situation, many will balk and decide real freedom is not worth the heavy price. I have yet to be convinced that enough will stand tall when faced with the situation to stop the tide of tyranny. They might certainly slow it down. But in the end, when the smoke clears, will freedom win the day? I am sad that I can not give that question a certain and resounding YES! I see us cave on to many other issues having nothing to do with firearms but everything to do with freedom.

The framers of the constitution gave up EVERYTHING for their convictions. They lost it all and many never lived to see the freedom they fought for. I am just not sure my fellow countryman will do that today. Life is way too easy in modern America. We have given away so much freedom already in so many small ways I am uncertain people will care if one more freedom, the most valuable in this case -- because it safe guards all the others, is taken from us. The media certainly will not defend the Bill of Rights until the final one is taken away - the right of free speech. Only then will they get worked up and of course it would be too late. We willingly cave to the EPA. We cave to taxes. We cave on every issue of property rights. We simply cave when ever the government, local or national, hits the us with new and intrusive law. Please tell me this would be any different! I WANT to believe!

Hell, the whole issue actually has nothing to do with guns. It is about control. Politicians know guns have little to do with crime. But they are a control issue. Liberalism can not succeed if people can maintain control over their lives. If one person can use a weapon in self defense, the socialist cause is a failure because it shows that the state can not protect everyone. Guns have proven time and again to make the state safer by actually reducing crime, but in doing so they undermine the theories of socialism and the all caring state. In the 1990s, this is politically incorrect. I guess my worry is that so many blindly except the party line. Ah hell. I guess the Roster is going to be political since one of the SC staff can not just clam up about it! ;-)

and now for something TOTALLY different!

Remington Bolt release. If you can not release the bolt via the small tab in the trigger guard, just press a screw driver into the "rocker" along the side of the bolt shroud. Depressing this lets the bolt slide out. Some folks evne remove the tab and use this method exclusively, on the theory that it will not work loose or jam like the tab can do.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 14:32:48 (ZULU)

BBL Break In: I have used Military Ball for breakin many times. I do not know if the jacket is harder(I doubt that) but it saves on the pocket book. Velocity is higher with 147 grain stuff so it might wear more, but I doubt that also. Problem you are facing is Remington BBLs shoot well but are rough from Hammer Forging. Takes alot to break in. Most break in procedures were really set up for custom bbls that start much smoother and take less to break in. Remington bbls will shoot very small groups, but the groups will open up after less rounds than a good custom job and foul quicker.

TRGT and Dean Michaels Data Books are working well together. I have combined them in my take along "What the hell to do now book". All this with the MilDot Master and Slope Doper and I have no excuses(except the wind) to miss. Now if I could get Casios to make a cheap wind meter that worked as a Laser Beam it would be a perfect world.

Pete that sling is on the way. BNe warned put on Welding Glasses before you open the box. I will not be responsible for damage to your eyes from the color sceme.

Jerry Rices rifle should be here in a week. Just itching to shoot it. He gets around that Remington Bolt Release by using a Ruger Release on the Remington instead. Damm thing works well. I posted his number yesterday. Damm fine rifles he makes.

The UnDude Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 14:53:49 (ZULU)

Heavy barrels are a must. Semi-auto were fairly well represented among the students, but limited. An AR15, an M1A super match (M21 lookalike) and some SR-25’s. SMTC did express a desire that the student show up with a reliable rifle preferably with a heavy barrel, but there was no special requirement for a custom rig. I can tell you first hand a light weight hunting rifle and scopes are not going to cut it at any of these courses, no matter where you take them. Sure, your first three rounds will go exactly were you want them but you are facing days with as many as 120 rounds going out that same tube. All at different elevations. As always, go were ever you go with the best you can afford. That does not have to mean a custom rifle, so don’t feel like you’d be under gunned with a factory rig.

In terms of overall accuracy, I have yet to see much difference between a good factory rifle and a custom rig. Why? The average shooter will not be able to shoot to the custom rifles potential in the field. For instance: My PSS will shoot 70% of the time (based on my saved targets) equally as well as the AT1-M24 I tested. In terms of accuracy, they both kick ass. The real difference between the two is not so much overall accuracy, although the AT has the edge by a few tenths, but in over all longevity. The custom rifle is built tough. That is what you pay for. A rifle that can take a beating and keep on punching them in there.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 15:57:53 (ZULU)

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 16:10:20 (ZULU)

Optics and mounts on the other hand are a different issue altogether. The best and most durable you can afford for the intended purpose should be your primary concern. I believe SMTC requires a ranging reticle (Mil Dot) which up until the last few years has limited the selection for many.

Practice and developing proper shooting techniques for the rifle would be the determining factor in how well you could expect yourself to shoot the rifle. Reviewing log book statistics for shooting conditions and rifle performance would be the determining factor for how well the rifle could be expected to shoot.

If you have a problem with a particular rifle or your not comfortable shooting it, either fix it or trade it in for something else until it works for you. This holds for both stock and custom rifles.
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 19:06:44 (ZULU)

To Mike M; as i said i wont be coming to your beautifull country this year, but most shorly i will next year.
Maybe one day we will meet, would really like that, then we might be able to discus our disagreements face to face under the pleasure of a couple of beers, and we wont have to armwrestle for it, because i will be buying. And you Sir, and your friend lawyer are on, because its not every day you get the chance to "beat up" a cop and a lawyer legally, now do you? :)
(since i know some "old" Dutch cops, just to be on the safe side, ill be taking along with me some bandages and cooling-pacs, for me that is....)

O, and euh...Mike M;i got NO COMMENT on the jealousy part and the discription of my country....tssk.

To Trigger50; I understand your point, and i take your word for it that the dakota gun is as good or maybe even a better gun to shoot with than our Accuracy AWM, but would it also last as long as the AWM when soldiers sleep, run, crawl, ab-seil, swim and para-jump with it in all sorts of terrain and wheater conditions? This i what i meant by a "beating".

To Bruce; I'm a big fan of the woods, probaly because most of my proffession is being done there, so would really like to work/shoot with you in yours, and i promise to leave my 'Boom-box' at home....;)
But please explain this; what the .... are Dog Brother rules ????

To Bruce E; "Twat" is actually a English name and not Dutch, Brittish english that is....try to find the American english translation for it...;)

To Scout; i aint responding nomore to politics, but would like to know this, are you in the 101st airborne, because then i am very much interested in talking with you, because our unit has been "build" in the same matter as the 101.

To Pat; thanks from me too about the rf info, very interesting test results, guess its no leica, but good enough for the money its costing.

To All; does anyone have any info on the Swarofski-scope with built in rf? Have seen and tested it in doors up to 90 meters which ofcourse worked very good, but does anyone know if its also good in the open? Here in europe they cost about 3000$.

To Jimmy and Scott; No comment...but thanks.

To Ted Gray; Havent got the actual info you want, but my experience with factory made cams is simple, they dont work precise enough.It all has got to do, not just only with the bullets weight, but also the type and ammount of gun powder used and even the build of your own person ( the way you lay behind your weapon).
Our guys like to make their own cams/bulletdropcompensator by putting a white peace of tape on their top scope knob on which they put their own marks for every hondred meters, and this works much better and faster in our humble opinion.

To Paul J.Headlee; You are wright about the "recon" bit.
And about the .308 part; i, myself, got the savage 112, and to my experience the heaviest weight of a .308 bullet should not exceed 180 grains to keep the cartridge "workable" although i also got some great groups with Sierra's 200 grainers hpbt's.

To Chris; Our army also had the AI AWM and the Mauser86sr and the sako trg-21 and another brand which i dont recall left over in the search for a new SWS, and the final choice had to be made between the AWM and the trg-21.
The AWM won because not only was it alrdy much tested and tried by many other army's around the world(like the belgian para's used them in the congo), it also is much "easyer" to strip and clean then the trg-21. The SAKO gun is undoubtly one of the finest gunz around (and shoots like a mofo!), it just has got to many peaces to be stripped, which isnt preferable when you are out in the field, especially at night.
I would like to know what it was that made your army also prefer the AWM above the Sako, even though as with our SWS hunt, it was a close call?

To Mr Jarrett, Scot and Pat; I would like to get all 3 of your vieuws on this; as i've said before, we use the BOLT-ACTION Accuracy AWM of which we are very fond off, and if we had to choose a new weapon it still would be a BOLT-ACTION type, just already because of the fact that a BOLT-ACTION one has got very few moving parts ( no big back and forth sliding BOLT for instance) and easyer to maintain and clean, and of-course very accurate.
But these days there are some great SEMI-AUTO rifles on the market which sometimes are even more accurate than BOLT-ACTION's and have got bigger magazinecapacity's, (which brings along the risk of loosing your shooting capabilities because if you miss, hell, you just take another shot, because you got 19 rnds left anyway,wright? NOT!).
I also keep hearing very good things, aswell on our civilian ranges as in our military rings, about weapons such as the mentioned Knight's SR-25, Springfields M1a Match, H&K's PSG1 (used by our Anti-terrorist snipers) just to name a few.
What i would like to hear from you 3, are your pro's (if you got any, that is) and con's towars a SEMI-AUTO rifle to be used for sniping and normal shooting instead of a BOLT-ACTION one.

Yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 19:38:23 (ZULU)

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 20:20:53 (ZULU)

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 20:26:28 (ZULU)

To all; Can any one give me the + thing about oval instead of round mildots?
Our Schmidt und Bender 10x42's still have the round ones as does my own B&L Tactical 10x42, i hear they tend to be more easy on your eyes?

To Mike M; Thanks for your concern, apreciated, but i dont think we'll be dodging many shells this time like the way we were in bosnia '94, the trouble this time will not be coming from the big arms like artillary or mortars, but rather from small arms from the minority of serb civilians who stayed to protect their houses in kosovo, the returning kosovo-refugees who might be looking for revenge, the stay-behind forces of the serb army who have gone "underground", the UCK warriors who probably think they are gonna be in command now (NOT!) and every other nutcase with an ak-47 who has a grudge against other people or even the nato-forces, but i aint worried, i am in a well trained proffessional unit, with enough buddys to cover my back,sides and front, a nice kevlar helmet made by the germans (deutsche grundigkeit) and a very thick shrapnell and bullet-proof vest ( not even our .338lm went through it when this week one of our boys on purpose shot at it at 100meters just to show everyone can trust his material).
O, and i like my beer cold, golden and with 2 fingers of foam on it!

yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager.demon.nl>
NL - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 21:09:21 (ZULU)

I've seen alot of talk about bbl break in here. I've fired 30-40 rds thru my M1A and Rem 700 (new) before cleaning. Have I screwed the proverbial pooch by doing that? If so, any rememidies.

Is there a physical dif. between 338win mag vs 338LM? I don't see any specs on 338LM in my reloading manuals

Gun Control here means hitting your target!!

JFD

JFD <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Texas, USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 21:33:08 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 21:56:20 (ZULU)

"Rest assured that I will continue to vote to protect our Second Ammendment Rights to keep and bear arms."

Nuff said!

Bolt wanders back to the data book answers.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 22:01:10 (ZULU)

I have received several private emails re: my Galco comment. I better send up a star cluster to identify my position. Galco makes fine products. My comment was of a personal nature only and perhaps I should not have been quite so forthright on this forum. Let my mouth run away with me. I place the highest priorities on the warriors code of honor. I believe in it and have done my level best to practice it for the past 40+ years. Within that code are several components, one of which is loyalty. I despise violations of loyalty in individuals and organizations. Galco has some business practices which trash that notion, hence my animosity. Just my personal bitch and I hope I haven't offended anyone. It's my fight and I don't mean to make it anyone else's.

McNab: I am old school and I am committed to the bold action rifle as a sniper weapon. I have not had the opportunity to handle some of the extraordinary items being discussed on this site so I am a bit dated. However, I did train with the M-14 XM1 system and some other "shelf items" during my day, and the bolt was simply more accurate. As I have stated before, I was never employed in conjunction with a line unit where long range sniper suppressing fire ops were an option. It was truly "one shot, one kill." Our experience informs our perspectives. That is why I try to absorb as much of the information on this site as possible. Guys like Gooch, B Rogers, Trigger52, XRing, Pat, etc. (don't mean to leave anyone out) have a wealth of information that I feel humbled in the presence of.

This is a hell of a site. For those of you that don't like the "political" issues, better find a bench rest site. The occasional brawl is good for the "family."

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 10, 1999 at 23:33:47 (ZULU)

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 00:06:53 (ZULU)

Bolt gun rules for snipers. There I said it.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 00:12:40 (ZULU)

P.S. Insist that Mike M.furnishes a bottle of tequila.I don't know if you are familiar with this drink but will make you 10 feet tall,bulletproof and invisible.
Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 00:24:51 (ZULU)

Scott really sells some good stuff.

Also, I got a Tasco Lasersite 800 the other day off of ebay. From what I can tell, it works like a charm. I checked the backboards at the rifle range the other day, and they were right on with what I had measured ealier with a steel tape. I live on a lake here,and I took them down and ranged various things across the distance. According to my topo map a camping area acorss the lake read about 450 yards. Then Tasco said 434. I pondered over this for a little while, then realized I hadn't corrected for the proper GPS setting. The new reading form the map read 440 (I can only measure down to 20 yards on the topo). Close enough for me, folks. I've ranged everything from houses to moving boats, cars, and Jetskis. They work,a nd work well form what I can tell. I've ranged reliably up to 840 yards, but I did notice they didn't get as good a bounce during really bright sunlight.
As a companion to my MkIV mil-dot, I think this will make a great addition to my kit.
- Ray
Ray <rogue762@aol.com>
TN, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 01:09:44 (ZULU)

Is the US OPTICAL unit RAM-D or not? Then..... about what are they
going to cost a civilian at this time?

The Elcan is now about $700 US, and the ACOG is around the same price in this market area. I'd just like a few other opinions so that I don't let my personal fondness for the Elcan lead a bud down the wrong path.

Gooch: Where in Ark. did you hang your hat? And who do I need to
meet around The Camp to get in a little quality .308 trigger time?

ps: The political dog-kicking is great exercise on a site like this,
as long as we all use some of the information we absorb hanging around the "choir loft" in a daily effort to EDUCATE the liberal and "non gun" boneheads that we encounter.

Watch 6
MAXX

MAXX <mazander@cei.net>
Near Blue Eye, Arkansas, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 01:59:14 (ZULU)

Semi-auto vs. bolt: It seems to me that it would make sense that a bolt rifle has fewer parts and so is more affordable to machine to close tolerances to be accurate. A semi-auto's complexity makes in much more expensive to get it to shoot with a bolt gun... not impossible, but it'll cost ya. Of course, if you are in a situation where it might hit the fan hard and any shot made isn't going to be at a great distance, then the semi-auto may be dictated by that setting, and a bolt gun might be a hinderance w/o the accuracy being overly advantageous. With that said, however, I have to say that I think if a sniper's doing his job, he'll know when to hold that shot and not risk closing with the enemy. Maybe the mission dictates that you have to take it when you get the shot, but if you can hold off until you can make the mark and then extract w/o detection, that'd be the way to do it.

Roger in Florida: If you can make a post on the Roster, you can get to the card catalogs, too. Most (well, at least a lot; all four that I've attended) universities have them on-line. I wouldn't mind hunting for it at all, but that'd be a slim start to have a chance at finding it... Do you have the article in-hand? Did it mention the grad student's name, or maybe even better which school they were at? Was the student here at UT, or elsewhere? UT's library is at http://www.utk.edu/libraries/, if you want to look. I was going to suggest popping into the library on campus there one day, but you're right, if you're in Gator country, I'd stick to using the 'net... ;-)

James J.: I'd like to hear that Galco story (if you'd rather email it to me off-line, that'd be fine). I have a little story about them, too... Back after the 1st of the year, I took a little Christmas money I had received and ordered a holster from them for my pistol from the local gun shop. The shop said it'd be a bit before it's in stock, but will have it by end of February. Early March checked with the shop, they said Galco'd have it here by the 15th. End of March arrives, and the shop says Galco said it would be the end of May before it arrives. Not wanting to take it out on the shop employees, I directly emailed Galco about my opinion on the matter... their first reply said that theuy'd look into it. Two days later I received an email that they had just shipped it that day... should be in the shop the next day. I walked into the gunshop and talked to my friend at the counter, and told him my holster should be in. He went in back, came back with a just-arrived Galco box w/ the holster inside and said "I just don't know what to think when the customer knows more about what's in at the shop than one of the employees!" I gotta say that Galco paid attention when I contacted them, and the holster is really sweet; very pleased with the quality. Still, would be curious about your experience.

L8R,

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
Knoxville, TN, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 02:40:54 (ZULU)

I'm going to make a low-budget, avant-garde film titled CARLOS AND THE CRIPPS............It'll surely take The Cannes Film Festival by storm!

Anyone out there look lean and leathery and talk in a convincing Arkie accent? I'm a native Arkie, so the accent has to be darn good......Plus, if you can shoot ANYTHING like the original Carlos from Arkansas, yew cud save me a whole dad-gummed bunch on special effects costs....

After this hyar sniper movie, folks will be saying "Tom Berenger who???" An this hyar movie ain't gonna have none of them thar cheesy "magic rifle scope" effects, neither.

All y'all potential movie stars, lemme know!

Roy Hill
Roy Hill <rhill@mickey.gc.whecn.edu>
Gillette , WY, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 02:45:13 (ZULU)

Marco...I think a lot of folks are gonna get orders soon. May God be with you all. Stay healthy, you have a lot to do here. See the States, drink some beer, kill a bottle of tequila (boy, I'd love to see that), tussle with a cop AND a lawyer, visit SMTC....
What about your buddy's who are already at SMTC? Think they'll joining you?

JFD
JFD <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Texas, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 02:47:54 (ZULU)

Someone named Jessie asked about making net from 550 cord. It is definitely much easier to just buy netting. And just consider making a one piece suit.

I have a fair amount of experience with the 40A1, and almost none with the 24, and reluctantly admit that I prefer the 24 stock. I remain skeptical about the zero remaining the same when the 24 scope is removed and replaced for airborne ops, but friends insist it remains sub-moa. If that is true, someone definitely did something right.

I would humbly (well, proudly) point out that the 40A1 was designed about 10 years before the 24, so of course technology advanced over that time. I have heard of an M40A2, something about a modified stock, having been fielded in the Corps. Can anyone advise? I know of Texas Brigade's 40A2, and 40A3, are those based on what jarheads have already? And are SIMRADs working out? I have been out a while, I guess.

RE gun control-- just when you hoped you had seen the last of it-- I submit that the better answer may be criminal control. We keep arresting the same ones over and over. We are currently hunting one man for probation violations on FOUR felony cases-- assault on a cop, RSP, CCW & RSP, and another CCW. He got probation for those. to clarify, those 5 crimes stemmed from 4 seperate incidents. He was arrested again for felony drug possession, released and failed to appear in court. It just seems that many judges don't have a grasp of what is going on.

RE hill shooting-- We went to cold weather training at Bridgeport and after skiing went to some depot in Nevada for a high-angle fire course. Oh boy, was that a surprise! The instructors had us shoot at 200 yd known distance targets at a STEEP downward angle, just to prove to us that we didn't know anything, before starting the period of instruction. They gave us a cheat sheet with a math formula and other data on it, but I haven't found it yet. It's around here somewhere. They fore-warned us to bring calculators. It was MUCH easier to hit a 900 yd low angle target than a 200 yd high angle one. I remember that it made no difference if we were shooting up or down, all that mattered was the angle. Why is that? It seems gravity would play a role, but I can't remember.

Mark J <mcjscandia@aol.com>
Columbus, OH, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 04:34:57 (ZULU)

Tony,
Not to start another argument but I find it hard to belive that a 257WM would hold up as a tactical rifle. I know for a fact that one afternoon in Wyoming and the throat would have been gone and along with that the accuracy. I watched a shooter on the man on man competition burn up a 22-243. His rifle went from pin point accuracy to not being able to hit a plate at 500 with 7 to 8 shots. I was spotting and it was really interesting to watch the decline in accuracy. I think we miss the point when we think that our varmint rifles can hold up under field conditions that are encountered in a combat or tactical environment. I know you were in the military so you know what I am talking about I am probably preaching to the chior. If it was just a shot or two at a time then I would build the hottest,fastest, flat shooting varmint rifle out there to use in the tactical matches but they are all different and in some you have speed shooting and many multiple shots right along with shots out to 1000 yards. So as you can see the rifle has to be able to sustain many multiple shots without "Melting down" and though you and I would let our bodies fall before our rifles its not that way with everyone who carries a sniper rifle thats why they need to built like a tank.

Paul H,
I had lost your e.mail before I had a chance to answer you, yes I would be very interested in trying some of the bullets, anytime, and will let you know how they do.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 13:33:30 (ZULU)

Please join Citizens to prevent computer viruses.

Our objective is to rid the world of computer viruses by legislation.
We believe that computer anti-virus software is directly responsible for computer virus proliferation. As the computer AVS (anti-virus software) becomes more advanced, hackers must create more virulent viruses to defeat these new programs. So it is reasonable to assume that if anti-virus software is removed from the market place hackers will stop designing viruses. While an all out ban is unfeasible at this time we are proposing common sense legislation. Remember this will make the internet safe for descent people and remove the threat of computer viruses.
1. 5 day waiting period to purchase AVS
2. Background checks for purchasers of AVS packages
3. AVS must not be purchased through magazines or over the internet
4. All computer stores that sell AVS must have a federal license.
5. Registration of software must be done at the store at the time of purchase
6. Transfer of from one computer user to another must be done only at a licensed store
7. Make a 1000’ buffer zone around schools where children can feel safe from computer viruses.
8. AVS must be stored on special 3.5 floppy disks that are no less than 16” long. (this is to prevent them from being smuggled into school campuses and used by children )
9. Make all 3.5” floppy drive sound suppressors illegal
10. Install child safety locks on 3.5” computer drives
11. Make 3.5” floppy disks capable of penetrating armor illegal.
12. This space intentionally left blank
13. When taking lap top computers on airplanes they must go as checked in luggage. They must be placed in a hard case, locked and a flight attendant must check the drives to verify an AVS disk is not in the drive.
14. The airline must tag baggage with computers or software “ danger computer or software”
15. As a defense to prosecution AVS software may be carried from the store of purchase only to the owners home.
16. While traveling AVS software must be locked in the automobile’s trunk
17. An AVS license is required to transport software concealed
18. Brandishing or publicly displaying AVS software is illegal.

These represent the first eighteen AVS laws we propose and based on the number of gun laws on the books we will need at least 1,982 more laws before our country is safe from computer viruses. Remember if your computer becomes infected call the police do not try to fix the problem your self.

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 14:25:24 (ZULU)

Mike
Mike M <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 14:35:17 (ZULU)

A caliber such as 257 WBY mag., 30-378 WBY, 33-378 WBY, or for that matter 338 lapua and many others could only be used as a special purpose type of weapon because of the fact that barrel changes and maintanence alone require constant attention just from range practice itself. I as a collector and hunter choose to own and shoot some of these because of the fact I collect and have many. In real world the 223, 308 or 300 mag would still be my weapon of choice. And if one of these had to be my only rifle than I would stick with a 308.

Didn't intend to tear up the web page. Thanks..
Tony Y <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 15:37:51 (ZULU)

Keep your head up and your ass down. Remember the easy way is always mined and friendly fire ain't.

God Speed and God Bless---Jim
Jim <www.JR600YDS@aol.com>
Miami, FL, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 16:27:30 (ZULU)

Once I get the die dimensions figured out, order them and then start producing bullets, I'd be more than glad to send you and anyone else (except Dianne Feinstein, Charles Schumer, et. al.) some to test and evaluate (within the limits of my budget). This would provide me with a great deal of information in a reasonable amount of time. I can't perform adequate testing all by myself. I don't have enough time, money or equipment/components. It would be quite interesting to find what others are able to wring out of these bullets. Theoretically, it's hard to screw up a bullet if you use quality components, dies, and don't abuse your dies in the process. The hard stuff is done by the diemaker, keeping everything round, centered and in proper proportion.

Using undue pressure in the core seating die will cause the core and jacket to bulge in the middle (where the pressure builds) and take on a barrel shape. Upon ejection, the seated core and jacket would then be sized to the diameter of the die mouth. Lead is dead soft but the jacket metal is somewhat live and springs back a bit. That would cause the core and jacket to fit loosely and destroy any accuracy potential. You always swage up, not size down.

Naturally, I wouldn't want to destroy a $200 core seating die like this so I'll be very careful with my procedure. I am confident that I can make very high quality bullets, given the excellent equipment offered by Dave Corbin. I want to start a custom bullet business but my wife says no. I'm trying to get picked up in Kuwait, by ITT as a security police officer. If and when that happens, I'll have to put away my bulletmaking stuff. By offering some bullets up for testing, I'm just gathering information now. We've got a kid on the way and the wife is very reluctant to spring for gun stuff so it's slow going. I am making progress, however and expect to order the dies within a couple of weeks. Still trying to find a link to J4 Jackets.

Pablito: Thanks for the advice on bullet weight versus die length.

The swage press arrived yesterday. It's a work of art. 120,000 pounds tensile strength compared to 40-50,000 for my Rock Chucker. It's all steel. Fit is superb. Good luck everyone and I'll keep you posted.

Sincerely,
Paul J. Headlee <pheadlee@networksplus.net>
Ogden, KS, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 16:54:51 (ZULU)

One last tip, you will appreciate having elbow (and maybe knee) pads in the field for long prone sessions. A real bargain can be had at your local Wal-Mart. They sell a set of knee, elbow, and wrist guards (for just $10) next to the Rollerblading stuff. Remove the plastic impact "caps", and you will be in business. Save the wristguards for the bowling alley -- You will look just like Earl Anthony or maybe Bill Murray in Kingpin.
Wills <wdayton@thegrid.net>
Livermore, CA, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 16:55:49 (ZULU)

So Bill, who makes the best Tactical TP? Obviously, it needs to be camo and unscented, preferably made out of kevlar-sewn cordura (ouch!) or gen-u-wine Nagua hide and costing $400 a sheet... And if we end up with a waiting period for TP we're in deep trouble, lads.

McNab: Watch your step over there. Our (always reliable :) media keeps going on about all of the mines the Serbs have strewn about. Ah well, part of the job. I hear the Brit "McNabs" have been running themselves ragged over there behind the lines, as usual. We'll probably get a whole new round of SAS "true stories" books from this one.

Dave <dave@broadsword.com>
San Jose, CA, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 17:26:40 (ZULU)

Dave, on TP.
My WW2 and Koren vet uncles taught me how to use TP in battlefield conditions. You can get by with only one sheet and some used matchsticks. You poke a hole thru the center of the sheet, insert finger thru hole, wipe clean with finger, wipe finger clean by wrapping sheet around dirty finger and sliding the mess off. Oh yes, the used matchsticks were for cleaning under the fingernails to complete the job. One roll of TP will last a long time this way. This is something I kept way in the back of my head all these years. I have never been in such dire circumstances that I had to resort to this.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 20:45:55 (ZULU)

Any info is appreciated.

-Dan
Dan <dgs@comunitylending.com>
Santa Fe, CA, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 21:46:00 (ZULU)

Loved your 'proposed AVS laws'. Unfortunately, most of the anti's at HGC and such would probably look at it and say something along the lines of "Duh, what's this supposed to mean??" They couldn't see the relationship to their own 'philosophy' and, even if they could, wouldn't understand the humour. Too bad, I felt it was very well done. Anyone have any ideas on who else should see this??

McNab, remember your training and stay aware of everything around you. You never know what will alert you to something you REALLY want to know about.

Stay safe all and hold hard.

George

George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Finally getting warm Oakland, CA, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 22:01:14 (ZULU)

I have two requirements:
1. That the caliber be in either .308 or .300WM.
2. That the rifle be topped with a scope which has a mil dot reticle.

This is due to my military background in Sniping. I teach a Military style of Sniper Course. I teach what I know. If there are people out there who don't want to attend a military style sniper course, that's fine. I never said I was the only place to get trained. As a matter of fact, I have told students to go to as many training centers that they can to see how others do it. I do, however feel that my students who have attended our Basic, Advanced and Sustainment courses are among the best in the country. I teach the art of sniping, not hunting or plinking or competition enhancement.

I have had every make, model and action type arrive here for training. Some work better than others. I import AT1-M24 rifle out of Canada because I fell they are better than any other. I do not force my views on anyone.

I wonder why Storm Mountain Training Center is being discussed in such a negative fashion by someone who has never even attended our training or talked to me in reference to same.

R.D. Ryan
President, Ryden, Inc./Storm Mountain Training Center

Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 22:56:41 (ZULU)

I had a 700 PSS .308 with the same problem. The chamber on my rifle had several faint "score" marks about a third of the way up the length of the chamber. It looked as though the reamer had loaded up with chips and scratched these marks in during chambering. I had the barrel set back and rechambered (and throated to accept Federal Gold Medal Match + .020" freebore. This rifle was REALLY deep throated from the factory!) Took care of the problem and accuracy was greatly improved.

Hey Guys! Is this deep throat situation common on the PSS, or any other factory rifles?

McNab.....Stay focused, notice EVERYTHING, and you'll be fine. Best of luck, and look forward to hearing from you soon!
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
KY, USA - Friday, June 11, 1999 at 23:15:11 (ZULU)

John
ps. Am leaving to go bear hunting now. Will be using a .45 Long Colt sixgun. Hows that for a long range rig??
JB <jburns@tritel.net>
Wyoming, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 00:23:24 (ZULU) 

I received the same note as posted here in private email from Mr. Ryan and I immediately explained to him that the comment was misunderstood and taken out of context. I thought that would end the matter and it would be quietly settled between gentlemen. Alas, not to be. So let's get this cleared up.

In the interests of avoiding another blood bath and a pissing contest about who's is bigger (for crying out loud), please allow me to explain. I simply meant that at the sniper courses we run here at the American Shooting Academy, we do not place .308 and mildot scope restrictions on our students. We STRONGLY RECOMMEND it as those that do not meet the caliber suggestions soon are unsuccessful in the advanced portions of the course. In defense of my duplex reticle shooters, the good ones hold their own but with greater difficulty. How that comment can be construed to be "negative" is beyond my comprehension. By Mr. Ryan's own post, he does place caliber and scope requirement restrictions. It is a sound idea, but it does leave some folks without the wherewithall to afford such items out of luck. I offer them the chance and they soon, on their own realize that their equipment just doesn't cut it.

I thought the University where I teach was the only place I had to worry about folks getting all wound up without first determining the intent and contextualization of an observation. I expect this sort of sensitivity from the radical feminist bitches I have to wade through, but certainly not among this company of men.

I have nothing but the highest regard for SMTC and encourage my students to attend the course if they possibly can. It is, in my opinion, the primier sniper training facility in the US if not the world. Any place that has Gooch on staff has to be first rate.

Again, my apologies to any SMTC graduate and to Mr. Ryan in particular for creating any heartburn. Some things just don't matter, and this is one of them.

De Oppresso Liber
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 02:27:53 (ZULU) 

After reading and digesting the cleaning and breaking in tips I did the following procedure (figuring that I may as well start over with a totally fresh barrel and new ammo):

Took all five rifles and JB Pasted 50 strokes, dry patched until clean, wet patched with Shooters Choice, let sit for 10 minutes, dry patched again, wet patched with breakfree, ran one dry patch.

As I understand it, since these rifles have been previously shot, I can fire 3-5 shot groups between cleanings allowing the barrel to cool down of course. Is this correct?

PROBLEMS:
The milspec patches from Brownells for 223, 7 mag and 30 are tight as Dick's hatband and I had to keep moving the jag closer to a corner to get them through the bore. Is this the way these patches are supposed to fit? Using Dewey jag.
I thought that the bores were clean after the last time I put them up. The JB patch was black as soot after the 50 strokes. Is this normal?
Is putting the rifles back in the safe after the Breakfree and dry patch the proper way to store? Do I need to run another dry patch through before my cold bore shot?
As I read the poop, I should not have to use the JB again for awhile. How long or how many shots is a while?

Now, should I do the same cleaning procedure before I shoot the other unshot rifles for the first time?

Pre applying BenGay, Bolt out
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 02:35:06 (ZULU) 

Sarge
 

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 02:41:59 (ZULU) 

Hey Dan, looks like we are in the same boat here..
I recently purchased a Remington 700 VLS to be built on for a tactical rifle. A local gunsmith loaded me up some "dummy" rounds to check out the action. I've notice that the bullet AND brass have a scratch running down the side after chambering. Is this normal?
I believe its being caused by the ramp in front of the magazine but am not sure. It feels sharp to the touch. What would be the consequences of polishing this ramp? What about the chamber lip? Has anyone ever tried to polish this as well?
Also, the throat is WAY long on this barrel. Is this factory barrel worth having re-chambered, cut and threaded, and how much does that usually cost to have done?

Doc: It's ok to forget your own name, just remember the wife's name!!
BIIIGGG TROUBLE!!! Let's just say I've got that T-shirt. :O

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Bruce Hilsabeck
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Dumbfounded in, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 03:29:27 (ZULU) 

My friends and I lean heavily towards any of the soviet-bloc AKM's, as they seem to function flawlessly and can put a lot of trouble downrange in a hurry. They are much lighter than the older AK-47's (albeit at the cost of accuracy), and seem to be more common on the current market.
As for handguns, we seem to be about evenly divided. The 1911A1 is probably most common, but I opt for the Beretta 92/M9. I like the larger capacity, and it fits my hand better. basically, everyone shoots either a .45 or 9mm.
Shotguns are few, but we keep Mossberg 590's, and a couple of 870 Remingtons.
Nuthin' fancy, but that's how we do it out here in the sticks...

Anybody dealt with Leupold's new Long-Range Tactical scope yet?
john <ghostdncr@yahoo.com>
KY, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 03:34:12 (ZULU) 

I have used both the second and third generation 4-14x56mm scopes with the .308 “Springfield” reticule. I purchased the 2nd gen. Several years ago and it worked fine during testing. 4moa box test, full range zoom test, 10moa movement with return to zero and water submersion test. I mounted it on a Springfield M1A and it went with me to Idaho on my first elk hunt. I promptly dropped it on a very sharp rock while crossing a stream. The M1A stock was cracked from the magazine well to the gas tube. And the scope’s aluminum objective tube received a large gouge. Zero was moved 16” right and about 4’ up. It would not hold zero when moved through the power range. After returning from the trip I sent both the rifle and scope to Springfield and they were repaired without charge. The 3rd gen. Scope came from the factory not holding zero when moved through the power range and after about 3 weeks at the factory it works, as it should. I wish the reticule on the 3rd gen. glowed red or orange instead of green. When moving from a shadowy hollow to a bright green fore ground like pine trees it is necessary to turn off the illumination. The Springfield is set for a specific bullet at a specific velocity. I recommend you test the elevation marks at all distances you expect to shoot at. My rifle does not follow the “curve”. I zeroed it at 200 and marked the turrets for a 600yd. Zero. When I first used the scope there was a temptation to just “range and fire” but after a few rounds I realized I would still have to adjust for wind.
Good luck,
Michael

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 03:40:06 (ZULU) 

These are my opinions anyway.

Bruce Hilsabeck
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
Tornado Alley, Oklahoma, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 04:41:24 (ZULU) 

Operations Partner
T.R.G.T. - L.L.P.
Operations Partner <email@trgt.com>
Littleton, CO, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 05:10:18 (ZULU) 

Rem 870 or equal with the longest extension that will fit the tube. Screw the Iron sight models, no need to aim. Wood or after market synthetic standard type stock, heavy groved forestock, NO pistol grip. Standard buttstock can be wedged between your arm and side and the perp can't kick it out of your hand(if you miss and he gets that close) and can be used as a stricking weapon if you have a jamb. For indoor use first 3 rounds are no. 9 birdshot, next rounds are duplex turkey rounds. If you do your own loading you can really set up some low power, high pellet count rounds. Always check the spread of the choke with small pellet rounds in short barrel guns at an equivalent distance to the longest distance you will be shooting in your house.

Adjunct weapon to the mainstay shotgun, hammerless 38 or 357 Smith or equal in your butt pocket at all times. First two rounds are snake shot, next rounds, magsafe. If you trust a semi, HKUSP45. If you use the nonstandard self defense rounds like Glazers in the semi, check the feed for at least twenty rounds (this is expensive but worth it).

No need for a rifle in the house. If you want to carry a rifle in the vehicle and it will stay in the vehicle 24/7, a RRRRuuuugggeerr 10/22 magnum, awsome as hell at 100. Or RRRRuuuuuggggeeerr 22 Hornet. The hornet will penetrate body armor just in case you run up on a L.A. type situation. No need for lonf range stuff for defense.

If you have a truck, buy one of those overhead rifle shelves that fits over the visors. Can grab the rifle quick and it's pointed in the right direstion as you come out of the vehicle.

I don't know jack about long range and sniping but my old man was a cop for 33 years, so personnal protection was a mainstay around the house.
 
 
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 11:47:54 (ZULU) 

I think that if we all had our druthers we would have the finest equipment made. However reality dictates that we have an expensive avocation, and a limited to non-existant budget. Hence here's what I have found useful.

Sidearm: I have no doubt in my mind that HK makes the best pistols. Their reliability is excellent, and the featues are much more well though out than the G***ks. I.e. a very positive safety mechanism (off trigger, with firing pin block), the ability to decocking without emptying the chamber, choice of full or bobbed hammers and interchangable accessories. Take a look at the USP Tactical, it is an upgraded USP .45 that is intended for operators (Extended threaded barrel with o-ring, and match trigger) it is only available in.

Shotgun: Mossberg makes a new military model (500A1) that uses a threaded end-cap on the lower tube to retain the barrel. I like this because I can break it down in 5 seconds, and easily fit it into my drag-bag or backpack.

Rifle: Preference here are for a flattop AR-15. Colapsing stock, 16" barrel, free-floated aluminum handguard, vortex flash-hider, and the excellent Aimpoint CompM (5000) sight. Don't forget the back-up iron though!

If forced to "hit-the-street" I'd definately choose my AR and the HK. They are both high-speed, and great performers.

So there is MY OPINION , the short version. If you'd like more info on any of these please email me for more detailed discription/pictures of why I built what I did. Currently I'm testing how well a teflon/moly finish will stand up to all the people drooling on my AR.

Side Note to all of you about to be deployed: Good Luck and Godspeed.

[Ghent Out]
B Hancock <Ghent@msn.com>
Los Angeles, CA, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 11:48:16 (ZULU) 

I used to load my own when I was a police sharpshooter way back in the early 1980's. As this was prior to the great age of litigation we now live in, I was permitted to handload Sierra 190 gr. BTHP @ 2400 fps. with IMR 4895 (if my memory serves me?) for official use (I did not know how unusual this was until recently) . The major problem at that time is that this was a near max-load and I occasionally flattened primers from overpressure problems especially if I soft seated the bullet a little long to eliminate the jump. With these loads I was able to routinely shoot 1/4 to 1/3 MOA with my issue SSG 69 at reasonable ranges. I no longer have the time to do this type of handloading. Does anyone know of a person that is extremely precise with their handloads that will fabricate bullets for a fee to the buyers exact specifications? Thanks for your help.
A. MacIain <a_maciain@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 13:27:01 (ZULU) 

Me personally, I would start with a GPS.......... ;-)

Sidearm, who cares as long as its 100% reliable. A Ruuu, Ruug
Mk. I or II could be real handy in trained hands, or a Smith K/L frame. or...........

1. Govt model( your choice of caliber) w/ .22 conversion kit
2. Shotgun 12 ga 18-24" bbl w/ removable goodies for disguise...
3. Semi-carbine any flavor w/ 10 magazines & .22 conversion kit.

500 rounds ammo each.

The conversion units may not be tack drivers, but sometimes a little more quiet is a good thing.
 

As Al O paraphrases Thoreau "Simpleton - Simpleton!" Oh whatever

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 13:42:10 (ZULU) 

I guess I'm like a mother hen at times and want to make sure all my students are taken care of. I am very proud of them and the fact that some have used their skills operationally and lived to talk about it. That is the only reason that we are open and running training, to keep others alive through lessions learned.

Rod Ryan
Rod Ryan <ryan@stormmountain.com>
Elk Garden, WV, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 14:12:28 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 14:17:51 (ZULU) 

If I had to grab just one semi-auto long gun it would have to be the AR-15 but that may change as i get more experience with my M1A.

Love the Remington 870 and 1100 shotguns. I shoot the 1100 in combat compitition and it has never let me down but i would still grab a 870 for personal protection in the field.

Just another humble opinion.
Find what works for you and then get real comfortable with it.
I see lots of guys at the combat shoots trying new guns every few weeks. if they would put that money into practice ammo they would be winning events. For example i recently won the assault rifle stage with my m1 garand against AR-15s and mini-14s becouse the shooters were not familliar enough with their guns and keep playing with the newest wondergadgets to make them better shooters.

respectfuly. recon
 

recon <recon@midusa.net>
Iola, kansas, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 15:41:45 (ZULU) 

Shotgun: only one real choice. A Remington 870. Get Robar to weld on Ghost Rings and a mag extension, cut the bbl at eighteen and away you go. Put a Sure Fire Lighted Forend on it. This setup(in 14"rides) in my patrol car daily and has for five years without troubles. It still looks new.

Tactical Carbine: Just get an AR15 type, in 16" no M4BBL is needed a straight light is fine. 1x9 or 1x7" twist is best. Get a Ready Mag for the side. Stick with 20round mags so you can still prone. Put one of my slings or a Ghiles on it. A small flashlight forward and away you go again. Stay away from HK93's or anything foreign made. Parts cost an arm and a leg and are getting harder to get daily. 93 will not outshoot an AR for durability or groups. Sorry Bruce, but I have to live with the things and AR's are the way to go. Now take all the money I just saved you and go to Storm for Training with all the guns.

I'm sure some of you will not agree, but I ask you this. 1. What type of pistol has dominated all forms of combat shooting for ever? 2. What shotgun is in more hands of Police and Military HRT and regular troops than anyother? 3. What Tactical Carbine is used by more ellite troops and police around the world? Well the answer to the questions I gave you above.

Mike
Mike M. <DMMDNLN@AOL.COM>
Calif, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 15:50:53 (ZULU) 

The only thing better than one U-Dude sling is TWO of them! and in ANSI APPROVED colors for guaranteed welding flash too.

Chao
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 17:16:10 (ZULU) 

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Tactical-Shooting

out here

SFC Bill Thompson <redB@Bigfoot.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 17:27:29 (ZULU) 

We're cool. The nice thing about "men" as opposed to most females I have known and the majority of emasculated "males" I deal with as faculty at the University, we can have a genuine disagreement, even a knock down, get up and go have a beer and be friends. Again, my respects to SMTC, their staff and graduates. Sorry about the mixup.

For those of you out west here, ASA is presenting a basic Long Range Tactical Rifle course 26-28 July and the Advanced Long Range Tactical Rifle (Sniper Marksmanship) course 29-31 JUly at the western New Mexico facility. The T&T (Tactics and Techniques) portion is not scheduled at this time. We will be running an FTX Yellow Star Sniper Problem on Labor Day Weekend or later in September. I may try to offer a Blue Star FTX in central Arizona in November or the Spring. Check our site at:
ASA-training.com.

RE: Support Weapons: Everyone has sound ideas on it, so not much to add. Preferences here are AR-15, Rem 870 and any good quality semi-auto or revolver as handgun. For urban VCQB (Very Close Quarter Battle) environments, the 12 ga using the Alpha systems approach is hard to beat. As one of the other LE's here stated, 00 Buck is a terrible foe. I have seen a few guys remain mobile after being hit at distance with 00 Buck both in Viet Nam and in LA, but I have never witnessed anyone getting up after a slug hit.

I have students waiting as lunch break is over and the thunderheads are building so I am off to torture them and make them shoot in the rain. Poor babies :-)

De Oppresso Liber
 

James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 19:16:32 (ZULU) 

B Rogers - Glock has had a few problems with component parts. I would suggest taking any sidearm needed for defense to a gunsmith for a GOOD look see and generally they will find problem parts before they fail. My gunsmith has found a weak spring on one and a flawed sear on another, thus I've never had a failure in the field. Any firearm is subject to mechanical failure though.

MikeM - you are absolutely right. The Glock never made it to the Armed Forces because Glock refused to give its patent up to the US Government. They were asked TWICE and refused both times. Supposedly the first time in history the government ASKED a weapons manufacturer to apply.

Steve - It seems we are comparing apples and oranges again. What's good in a competition is usually not good in the field. Take that prize winning 1911 and run it over with your car, slide the action a couple times in a bucket of mud, load the clip, shake out the barrel and see just how well it shots then. Maybe you can throw it against a concrete wall 10 times as hard as you can, pick it up and see if it shoots.. The Glock will, I've done it..

B Hancock - The components on the Glock are well thought out.. Its called SIMPLE and it works. Hammer de-cockers, side safety switches, full double actions, etc.. etc.. are just more components to fail.

Bolt - Revolvers work great, but take a screw driver with you so you can take off that side plate and clean out the mechanism. Smiths are the worlds worst about locking up when they get dirt in their mechanisms.

Again, this is all my opinion, but I support it with tests, not with what I have in my safe. You cannot have the best of all worlds in one weapon. The Glock is not a competition shooter, or a good looking weapon. I would take a USP anyday in a reasonably clean environment. HOWEVER if I knew I was gonna be knee deep in mud and wanted something I KNEW would perform (given reasonable odds of comparison) I would choose the Glock. I'll leave the tricked out side shooters for the competition class..

Bruce Hilsabeck
Bruce Hilsabeck <bruceh@ionet.net>
SLAPPIN leather in , OOOKlahoma, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 19:23:51 (ZULU) 

SS
SGT. GOMINSKY
JIM GOMINSKY <JGOMINSKY@YAHOO.COM>
CAMP PENDLETON , CA, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 20:10:22 (ZULU) 

JFD <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 20:36:48 (ZULU) 

B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 21:05:57 (ZULU) 

Craig <craighanson@home.com>
USA - Saturday, June 12, 1999 at 22:20:27 (ZULU) 

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 00:32:32 (ZULU) 

Suing gun manufacturers. I have read so much about it, know enough about it, and all I can really say is...while the suits I have heard of filed by the cities are not something I agree with, one thing is for certain and that is: Paybacks are a bitch. There is a long, long story about Mr. Bill and his group. I won't get into it here, but remember the "assault rifle" [foreign that is] ban of 1989? Well, it was a Republican prez., and if you look at his contributors...you will see some very familiar names. Tell me, who would want to stop the importation of some very popular *foreign* made guns? hmmmm. It is always a mistake to assume, especially when you assume that people will forget. Not meaning to be cryptic, just have to read between the lines here.

Handguns: If not a 1911, then most definately a HiPower in 9. Only get 1 rifle? No question, whatever AR Bill Wylde has time to build. I figure if it is good enough for special ops, it will work on my farm just fine. With every honest bone in my body I tell you, if you don't have a Wylde built upper in your closet you are missing out on the finest AR equipment available.

Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 00:33:34 (ZULU) 

Which brings up item one....
How hot is hot relating to barrel temp.? Never had to worry much about barrel heat with just hunting practice. How many shots do you guys fire when the heater is on? Three shot groups from 300 and 7 mags took barrel 20 minutes to cool to even close to the ambient air temp. Don't want to ruin those Sendero barrels but I don't have the time to sit all day for 50 rounds.

Item two.
Found 3 boxes of Siera Match King 308 175 grain bullets and one box of 180 grainers. $19.00 per box. Is this the normal cost?

Item three.
Colts are going up 10% July 1.

Item four.
Milled receivers on AK's and SKS's. Are they worth the extra cost over the stamped?

Item five. IN REVIEW
Eagle padded scope covers. Saved my ass today. Hot, pissed off, not paying attention, not a scratch or shift in zero. Buy one now for each gun.

Last item.......
RCBS Master Reloader Set. Is this good enough to get started with? How about electronic scales? RCBS Tumblers?

Finally drying out and rehydrating, Bolt out
 
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 01:12:45 (ZULU) 

All this given in my humble civilian opinion.All you pro's feel free to spank me into submission.

Bruce E. <BGENLVTEX@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 02:03:38 (ZULU) 

Been playing with the other guys at SMTC, just letting you know that we enjoy it very much, great bunch of guy,s and friendly sheep !

"Ende"

Pete,

Sorry we missed you man, would have been nice to meet you.

T
Torsten <torstenerning@hotmail.com>
Burlington, WV, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 02:24:13 (ZULU) 

that "whimp eared" buddy of yours has the slopedoper, if he did`nt loose it on the way home like the rest of his gear on the stalks !

T
 

Torsten <torstenerning@hotmail.com>
SMTC, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 02:32:39 (ZULU) 

Assuming real-world deployment of a two-man military scout/sniper team in a temperate environment:
Sniper- M40A1 with harris bipod in a drag bag. I was issued an Eagle that had backpack straps, and really liked it. I could store the 40 and have my hands free to carry a bullet hose. Spotting scope in the bag. 100 rds 7.62
M4 carbine with M203. 390 rds (13 mags) 5.56,10 rds HEDP.
Spotter- Carries the radio, 25 lbs +- in a pack. M4 with 390 rds

Each:4 frag hand grenades, one HC smoke, one CS

Shared:one GPS, one water filter(PUR), one poncho liner

both-compasses, A/NPVS-7's (night vision), maybe gore-tex if it got too cool to just deal with being wet.(warm and wet is no big deal, cold and wet is big trouble)
food- mix of MRE's and dehydrated.
pistols-all I really know are the ones I've been issued; an ancient 1911, a beretta M9 (92), and S&W 4506 and 6906. I have to say I'm not very impressed by them. I would like to try Sig or HK. I've fired both, but don't really know them. Basically, I'm not sure. I carried my beretta in the drop-leg UM-84 attached to my trouser belt, so I could drop my H-harness and still have the pistol. It worked well.

I figure the main threat against a two man team is accidental contact at close range against a larger force. That circumstance calls for a heavy volume of accurate fire. Accurate, as opposed to precision sniper fire. Heavy, to over come being out numbered.

Realistically, a radio, whether SINGARS, PRC 104, PSC-3 or other satcomm would be required and heavy.
If you could find, rather than carry water, that would save much weight.

Climate changes everything. Extreme cold weather or desert change clothing and water requirements drastically, and make for barely manageable packs.

That's the gear I know best, and I know it will work for me.

Semper Fidelis & Fortes Fortuna Juvat

Mark J <mcjscandia@aol.com>
Columbus, OH, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 04:56:01 (ZULU) 

Sorry I was not specific enough, the person featured in the Rifleman article was a student at UT Knoxville. Thank you for the link, I will use it to see if I can find the thesis. Tried already but the computer at UT behaved strangley.

Bruce,

If the cities are sueing the gun manufactures do you think the gun manufactures will withhold discounts to the police departments.

Just a thought
Roger-90th OMMS <R.va@worldnet.att.net>
Micanopy Beach, FL, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 06:54:53 (ZULU) 

On record keeping....
It appears that until you have a rifle zeroed, about the only detail you need to keep is the number of rounds fired. Correct?

On hot barrels...
I realize that sniping requires minimal shots but what happens with normal combat weapons, especially autos, that are shot hundreds of rounds in a combat situation, do you plan on the barrel heating up and allow for it?

On cleaning/breaking in.....
What is the metalurgical purpose of 1 shot/clean, 1 shot/clean, etc? Steel is steel and copper is softer. What is accomplished by the 1 shot/clean method? Except for minute chrystalization changes in the steel and carbon buildup, the barrel should be the same after 5 shots or more.

Me thinks me may be thinking too much whilst cleaning, or maybe it's the shooter's choice.
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 15:30:39 (ZULU) 

In breaking in a barrel, you are removing the large rough spots and burrs left by the maker... you are not polishing the steel as some believe.
The first shot in a new rifle barrel will take out some of the largest burrs, weaken some of the smaller burrs, and leave a lot of copper piled up on the smaller burrs that aren't removed.
If you fire another shot, your just piling up more copper on the coper on the smaller burrs.
When you remove the copper, the next bullet takes out more of the "next size down" burrs, and leaves more copper piled on what is left.
During the early stages, it is important to remove the copper after one or two shots... because after the remaining burrs are coated with copper, nothing more will be accomplished. As the tool marks and burrs get removed, and the smaller ones remain, the fowling is less, so each repeated shot has more effect, so cleaning can be done every 4 or 5 shots... it will reach a point where all of the rough tool markes that "can be removed"... are removed.
At that point the process is over. Copper is way softer than steel, and bullets cannot "polish" the barrel any further.
At what point, this is reached is hard to tell. On a really fine Shillen, Schneider, etc, it may only be 30 or less, particularly if the barrel has been lapped. On the othe hand, if it is just a run of the mill production chrome-moly barrel, it may so rough that it never gets to the point that it is easy to clean. One barrel I had would foul so badly, that after 100 rounds at a match, I would have to fill it with copper remover, and let it soak for a day or two.
 
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 15:58:02 (ZULU) 

Also, one very fine new and interesting discussion is developing here, about what all, pro's and civilians, would preffer to have as sniping equipment.
This is my vieuw;
I preffer any good bolt like a sako trg-21, accuracy awm, remington-700, steyr-ssg, prefferably in .308 for the anti-personell purposes (because those weapons dont weigh that much as the .338 guns tend to weigh), and the .338lm for the longer distance jobs.
With 100 to 150 rounds, of which 25 in 5 mags in your ops-vest.
With a sturdy scope on it, 10 x 42,30mm tube, and none of that "tom Berenger" stuff in it, like those "stairs" as the dragunov and our own S&B scopes have, just plain ol'mildots.
And nothing else then parker-hales underneath.

As a spotter weapon me think a .223 is heavy enough, with the steyr-aug being the best weapon around, in my humble opinion, only since i havent seen one yet with a m203 attached to it which is a must have if you want to be able to propperly defend yourself against any threat, i tend to go with the m4 with a m203 attached.
With 15 mags, thus 450 rounds, of which 6 mags in your ops-vest.
And the m49 20x spotting scope and the dutch 6x42 binocs (nothing like it in the world which has such clearity, and i aint saying that because its dutch, ya'll should really give it a go!)
And for the 203, at least 15 to 20 rounds.

As to secondary's, i havent handled a gun yet which would be more appropied than the glock 17. Maybe a H/K USP, a sig-226 or the berreta-92f would also do the job, but i preffer the mag capacity and the "never jamming" capability of the glock17, add to that the ability to shoot under any dust/wheater condition, therefor making it my choice as almost being perfect.
(although the .45 has got more "oeumpf", i believe the 9mm is more then adequate and lets you take more ammo for the same weight)
5 mags and 1 box of 50.

As for frags, each 2 HE, 2 phosfor(for smoke screens and fire startin), and at least 1 red and 1 green smokeand 2 fire-grenade, divided in the team.
Also each should carry 1 claymore type of a-p mines.And as much as trip-wire flashbang as one would like to carry.

Now this may sound alot, and it actually is.
It weighs a ton and these are just the things that go "Bang!".
Havent even started on the shit i'd like to have in my Bergen, as food/water and clothes, sleeping bags (yes or no), fotocamera's and nightvision scopes/gogles, et-tools, radio's etc etc.
Futhermore i believe in the "3-way" carry system, which means that in the bergen, the ops-vest and on my uniform are basicly the same items stashed away (i dont mean im carrying 3 sleeping bags, 3 et-tools etc etc but if the shit hits the fan we first drop/loose our bergens, if the heat is still getting closer and we need to E&E we also loose our ops-vest at the very last moment and then still are able to survive with the shit we got on our uniform, get it?)

But keep in mind i'm talking about a 2 man job for a 48 to 96-hours
insertion into very "unfriendly" territory, to either take 1 target out or even do a recce job and sometimes even both objectives at the same time!(and ofcourse everything is terrain/wheather/objective depending)
Therefore i and with me our guys, like to go out prepared for anything and dont mind the extra weight, especially if you believe(like we do) the story of the english sniper team which stumbled upon a argetinian forward-observing post in the falk-lands, the "battle" was over in 4 minutes, resulting in 7 dead argentinians and 2 freeked out brittish snipers of which the spotter had no 7.62 left for his SLR, and both man had used up all of their 9mm for their Browning's and all of their frags, the only ammo they had left was the 7.62 of the sniper's parker-hale of which the shooter only got 3 rounds off before he reached for his pistol...

To Mark J; Would like to hear more of how you guys operate, what tasks you are getting when there isn't such a thing as an all-out war,
i mean what "jobs" are the american sniper teams getting in a situation as kosovo?

Yours truly,

McNab

Nec Temere Nec Timide.
McNab <sarge@pantserjager,demon.nl>
NL - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 16:29:37 (ZULU) 

Bob <rvl@inil.com>
The big steambath called Chicago, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 16:32:45 (ZULU) 

And what do you think the federales are going to say bout Willy-Peet, H-E, and Frags, thats even worse than bashing a Scottish named Holland-Dudester.

Uh gee Mr Park Ranger! I'm a little concerned with the local bear populations preponderance to social unrest and I belive that I am taking - well um - "Appropriate Counter-measures".

Ask Mike(Un-dude), I'll just bet he keeps all that EOD stuff in the back of his scout car for special occasions. Depity Dave Too! ;-)

Ofta "priority one" for cruellers and coffee and then park my fat, FAT, Corpulantly FAT, JABBA THE HUT FAT heinee at work.

Mcnab,
Stay safe, and learn from Stefan. He might be supplying some awful good knowledge from S/M.

"T"
Watch out for banjo players with AKM's over that thar mountain.

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 17:45:42 (ZULU) 

For a pistol, I woiuld use my HK USP45. Rugged, durable, carry it cocked and locked or DA/SA. I am never going to buy a Glock because the trigger pull $u**s. If you want a clean, sharp, glass rod breaking trigger on your main weapon, why accept a soft, mushy, never know when it'll go trigger on your sidearm?

My rifle will be one of my M1s. Not as accurate as a sniper rifle or an AR, but it can also be used for hunting, against lightly armored targets with AP ammo, and makes a bigger hole than the 223. In addition, none of the assault weapons bans affect it because it's not magazine fed. Carry 144 rounds on clips and you can also get more '06 at many country stores.

For a shotgun I would use my 11-87 because I have it, but you can choose an 870, 1100, or 11-87. 12 gauge, of course.

For those of you going to Kosovo - good luck and come back safe. Remember the Golden Rule - Do unto other what they would do unto you, but do it first.

Aufwiedersehn,
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 17:54:39 (ZULU) 

I archived tonight, but had one heck of a time doing so. I really battled to get the DR downloaded to archive. The result is that the archives have not been updated yet with what I removed tonight.

I'll try to get that done tomorrow night but I promise nothing. We're moving house on Thursday, and hav estarted painting and fixing yesterday. So I'm really tired where I'm sitting here now, and I don't see it getting any better in the next two weeks.

So if you send me something to post, or ask me something, please bear with me if it takes too long - we don't even have a phone in the new house yet.

Marius
Marius Ferreira <mferreira@lantic.co.za>
RSA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 21:35:57 (ZULU)

How many of you have EVER finished cleaning with a pure white patch coming out?

On a brand new PSS, I JB'd 50 strokes, ran 5 dry patches, ran one wet Shooter's choice patch, let set, 5 more dry patches, 10 wet brush strokes, let set, 1 wet patch, let set, stopped counting at 50 dry patches(none pure white), one wet Breakfree patch(came out blacker than the Shooter's Choice patches, 10 more dry patches, stopped and started typing this.

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND ESPECIALLY ON A NEW GUN! EL HELPO POR FAVOR.

I don't think i've ever paid this much attention to cleaning but now it's driving me NUTS!
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 22:29:37 (ZULU)

Tedgrey...

The Rem 700P (police) is on the short 700 action, and the M24-SWS is on the Long 700 action... so the 700P can't be converted to 300 Win Mag, which needs the long action... and Rem won't sell you a second bolt as a part, either.

Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, June 13, 1999 at 23:41:59 (ZULU)

How - How I say again - can any competent Judge/Jury even allow a suit to take place? The gun manufacturers are no where near responsible for use of weapons in crime.

Screw it - I am going to sue Stanley (I hit my hand with their hammer earlier today) - maybe the thing to do is to choke this absurdity with more absurdity. Everyone - file a suit against a manufacturer of an item - Tell your friends to do the same. The system will be so bogged down with this that... - well - you see where I'm going.

Enough of my whining for now....

Yugoslavia bound members: Stay safe, God Bless - hurry back to the Duty Roster.

Ken :)

Ken <ImpactArea@snipercountry.com>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 00:42:23 (ZULU)

You can convert a short action gun to .300 magnum, it's called a short action magnum. The bolt face must be opened up to .532 to accept the larger diameter case and i suggest using a Sako extractor to fill it out. Hart can do this for you. I would scrap the barrel that comes with the gun though because it isn't up to the task of the .300 Magnum cartridge. As others have noted, the PSS barrel is a rough one and fouls quickly. This can be defeated somewhat by carefully breaking the gun in and maybe "fire lapping" the bore. Short action magnums have long been used in 1000 yard competition, but it is a single shot gun only. Cases are obviously too long for a mag, but there is a number of us that argue that for extreme range shooting that single loading is the way to go anyway. The short action makes a good basis for a very rigid action for long range precision. The 1000 yard benchrest club has long converted the short actions to magnum calibers for their rigidity, therefore for precision.
Trigger50 <Dmicha4640@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 01:03:40 (ZULU)

Sounds like "PSS" is a big part of "our" problem. I went through the same painstaking process as you about 2 years ago, when I got mine. Mind you, this was my first new rifle ever, so I was suitably excessive about the break-in. Anyway, I found that even after the J-B treatment, Hoppes, and Breakfree, the patch still comes out black.

I must conclude that there is truth in the reply above that the PSS is simply very rough. I also believe that since this would be the case, you will find that your patches continue to come back black, after soak-time (a few days between cleanings without firing). I believe that there must be residue that is penetrated by the solvent while the rifle is unattended. I experienced this - much to my embarrassment - some time back, when I got together with my former sailor dad and he took full advantage of the occasion to rib my former marine tush.

Best wishes. I intend to stay the course. Maybe by pressure lapping, the bore can truly be smoothed?!

Semper Fi!
 

Roger E. Lays <rlays@aol.com>
Corpus Christi, Tx, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 01:12:23 (ZULU)

What reloading book do I need to get 175g Match to get 2600fps like Fedral does. Or is there anyone out there that would be willing to guide me in the right direction. I have a Nosler and Serria Book and they are bit shy of 2600. New to the reloading game and don't want a face full of hot fast moving steel. methinks it might sting a wee bit:)

Stagger Lee 10-42
Stagger Lee <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, In, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 02:01:00 (ZULU)

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
NZ - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 02:04:12 (ZULU)

Hmmmm let me see.........

Maybe 44.0 gr of Hodgdons Varget powder will do the trick with Federal Gold Medal match primers.

heres my last chrono session with this load as FYI:

15' from muzzle: 50 degrees F.

168 A-Max 2702fps, hi-2718, lo-2692, ES-26, Sd-07!
175 Berger 2678fps, hi-2700, lo-2656, ES-44, Sd-13
178 Horn NM 2675fps, hi-2694, lo-2654, ES-40, Sd-11
175 Sierra 2642fps, hi-2670, lo-2624, ES-46, Sd-14
Not a "hot rod" load just a good well rounded handload with lots of research applied before buying. Start low and work up guys.

Chao for now!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 02:47:26 (ZULU)

I read that quite a few of you guys think the USP is your pistol of choice. Personally I don't trust them any more.
I have had three(3) firing pins break on my USPs. Two were on a full size .45. The first went at 10,000 rounds and the second went like clockwork at 20,000. Next was the firing pin in a .40 Compact. That gun had less than 1000 round thru it. I remember when I called the factory on the 3rd pin that had broken and they at first said that it was the first time it had ever happened with a USP. I laughed and said it was the 3rd for me. Talked to one service rep and he claimed to have discussed it with an HK engineer and they knew about the stress riser where the two crosssection cuts in the firing pin meet. Anyone with any knowledge of engineering or machining will tell you that the firing pin needs to be changed. Wish I had pulled one apart before I bought mine. Been carrying a Para P14 Limited for over a year now. Had to replace the slide stop at 6000 rnds but I personally like the gun.
AR-15s works the best for me, better ergonomics than any other assault rifles. Had problems at -25 deg with the aluminum receiver shrinking enough to slow bolt travel and not cycling.
Not trying to rain on anybodys parade but thought this might be of interest.

JB
JB <jburns@tritel.net>
Wyoming, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 04:14:17 (ZULU)

Then, Then, Then I pulled the 4 that had NEVER been shot. Did the whole JB thing again, this time 100 JB strokes, no brush this time. You guessed it again, not one clean final patch on any of the brand new guns.

A shrink will be called this morning to discuss the issue in detail. Also going to head to North Wilkesboro Saturday for the 1000 yard match. Not going to carry a gun. Going to look over the shoulder of every one of the contestants when they clean. There has to be a "rest of the story".

BTW, if the PSS barrels are so rough and hard to clean, why the hell does everybody want a PSS? If the barrel is so rough how can they be as accurate as claimed? Is this typical with Savages, Winchesters and RR..Uuu...gg.er.s?
 
 
 

Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 12:19:29 (ZULU)

I spend a lot of time riding motorcycles around the Wilkesborogh area of North Carolina and I stumbled onto a little sign once that simply said "1,000 Yard Rifle Range". I suppose it is the same range that Both mentions in the mesage above. Could somebody tell me what the deal is with shooting up there. The only 1000-yarder I have access to is the occasional stint on Range 4 at Ft. Gordon, GA and that aint enough. :)
 

BTW, also got to chat with Norm Chandler of Iron Brigade Armory yesterday: seems that he has had a heat-to-heart with some of the people at Remington about the QC problems with the 700Ps of late: he is inclined to belive that the bean-counters are pushing too few people too hard, resulting in a slippage in quality. He seems to feel that this situation is on the mend, with recent rifles exibiting appropriate workmanship. Also, he says keep your eyes peeled for an add in TS for top-quality rings and bases for Rem 700s, short, long, left, right, 1" or 30mm, whatever you need. They look nice to me.

Also, the Charlotte NC gun show had zippo, nada, NOTHING for either Varget or 175 MKs on-hand. Pisser.
 

Thanks:

-Tom
Still 700P-less in Columbia
Tom Simspon <bullet45@usit.net>
ColaTown, SC, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 13:12:31 (ZULU)

A barrel can be accurate, and be rough (fairly common), and also, a barrel can be smooth and not accurate (not too common)... and it also depends on your definition of accuracy. In tactical rifles, .6 to .75 is very good, but that would be considered a short range crowbar to most varmint shooters, and a piece of junk to a match shooter.

The accuracy is mainly related to the cutting of the chamber-throat-leade... if the rifling is fairly decent, the gun can shoot fairly well (but not great).
But when rough rifling loads up with fowling, the accuracy falls off quickly. My .308 PSS would shoot .5 to .6 when scrubbed, but after 50 to 75 roulds, it would be shooting 1.5 to 2 inch groups. I looked into the price of a decent barrel, and decided to get out of it... to someone that had to have a real "sniper" PSS.

Rem HB's and later, the PSS's made their reputation back in the 70's, the 80's, and early 90's, when these were the flagship guns of the Remington line. Rem has had some tough times since their merger with the fishing line company "Stren". Many of the long time machinist, and repair people have been fired, and most repairs are now farmed out to independant gun shops... the skilled in house staff is down to about 1/3 to 1/4 of what it was 10 years ago...

This kind of thing happened to Winchester back in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's and they had to work double hard to come back. The Win factory went back to the civil war, and the cost of overhead was killing them. 5 years ago, they moved to a totaly new factory, with all new machines, and their overhead dropped like a stone.

Rem's factory in Illion, NY is also an old facility, that's expensive to run, and the costs are killing them. Their rifles are 20 to 25% more expensive than their competitors... and they have to cut costs some place.

Everybody loves the PSS because it's a "real" sniper gun... not because of any inherent quality. Many PSS owners promptly start throwing money into the gun after they shoot it... and there is a cottage industry of gunsmiths that make a good living making the PSS shoot like it should've out of the box... for about $300, and you still have the medium weight rough factory barrel... and your into the gun for $1000 to $1100, and all you got is a PSS.

...but by the time you've paid for a PSS, and then go out and pay to have it overhauled, you could have built what you wanted, and had a better gun. You can build an equivalent M24, with a straight bull match barrel, a H-S M24 stock for about the same money as a new PSS, and getting it fixed up... Hell, you can get a 40-XB barreled action, and a H-S M24 stock, and the cosmetics for $1200, and have a real tack driver.

Pablito
 

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 13:14:57 (ZULU)

JB,
I was curious as to what twist you have in the 22-243 and what bullet you shoot?? I had a 220 JAY BIRD (22-243IMP) with a 1-10 twist for the 69 match. I used to to shoot coyotes and it was one heck of a 500 yard varmint rifle.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 13:20:58 (ZULU)

Anyway, ignoring the ammo debate, it seems to me that you first concern should be absolute reliability and simplicity. For that, you can't beat an SA/DA revolver (shoots both ways). What you suffer here though is quick reloading and having a safety (nice when you are groping around in the dark to retrive it when half asleep). If you think you can be safe, but are not sure about the reloading part, have a small auto as a backup. But for a primary, fail-safe pistol, it's pretty hard to beat a revolver.

Contrary to someone's opinion, I find the Berettas to be VERY jam proof. I have only ever had one jam in my .40 (it was the round's fault) and with the open top slide, it is about as easy to clear as anything you can imagine. You can practically clean the gun without field stripping it. I wonder about the strength of the slide sometimes, but I am choosing to live in denial.

On Glocks. Don't like them personally. Just don't fit me very well. (I can't remember if it's the Sig or the Glock, but one of them has a slide release button that I just find impossible to get a grip on and operate) But I had an interesting don't-know-if-it's-true conversation with an LE type at a range recently. We were talking guns and he mentioned that some friends of his had just bought some Glock 40's and wanted him to reload for them. (he shoots a Sig). Fine. So he picked up some dies (Lee, I think) and noticed a warning on them NOT to reload for Glocks. He ended up calling Glock to ask about this and someone at Glock told him that they belive the .40 cal round is like a "bomb waiting to go off." He was told that .40 brass in inherently weak anyway and that if the brass gives way in a Glock, it will possibly blow out the magazine and a few other nasty things. Anyway, Glock absolutely does not recommend reloading .40s for their pistols especially is using heavier bullets (180gr, etc). Seems a bit odd. Anybody know more about this? Obviously, you would not use reloads in a duty or self defence gun, but this could be important info, if true.

On reloading: Anybody out the have experience with the Redding Ultramag press (the one where the leverage system is connected at the top of the frame)? How do you like it? Is it as open as it leads you to believe? Do the leverage bars force you to sit directly in front of it, or prevent you from having more than one hand in it? Can it be used with a decapper die? Does it use standard RCBS/Lee type shell holders? Any comments about it? ...

On cleaning. I find that you can get a bbl pretty damn clean if you just assume that you are going to burn up a lot of patches doing it. The fact is, the let it soak and run one patch through method will not do the job. You might have to use 40 patches, but you can get a bbl as clean as you like most of the time. What I have noticed is that you can get it so the the patches come out clean, but if you run the brush through again, the next patch will be filthy. If you use a brush, try this. Eventually, you will get it clean. Just run the brush through, every few patches. If you choose NOT to use a brush, use lots of patches and take lots of time. I wouldn't leave any solvents in the bbl long term, though.

I was considering experimenting with using a Nylon brush over a brass one. I figure it will react less with the bore cleaner, and it may be considerably less wearing on the steel (since that's the point of using them in air rifles). If anybody knows more about this, let me know.

André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 13:30:44 (ZULU)

On the Berretta - I've had all kinds of problems with our military M9 issue pistols/magazines. I've had floorplates fall out (dumped all the rounds at my feet after the first shot). Have magazines refuse to eject during speed reload drills so often that I find myself reaching to pull it out before going for the next mag. In spite of the huge gap in the slide, I have had two different types of stovepipe jams (one failure to eject - commen, and one where the feedlips gave out and a loaded round got into a weird stovepipe position). And this is all range work with pistols that have never been anywhere but the range and a holster in a patrol car.

Makes me miss the M1911A1, wish we still had it in our inventory.

The M11 (SIG 228), on the other hand, is absolutly reliable. Zero jams. Pull the trigger and it goes bang every time. I can't say enough good thngs about it (except they won't let us carry it - no standard safety). I liked it so much I bought a SIG P229.

Jim <hampshire@mediacen.navy.mil>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 14:11:10 (ZULU)

Not sure I agree with the hard crimp causing excessive pressures though. I hard crimp my beloved 45 Colt as a rule and I haven't seen any hint of high pressure (granted it's not a 44 mag, but I should be able to see some difference in the hotter loads. I have seen none.) I heard this expressed as a myth before. Don't know, but I've never seen any problems caused by the crimp, other than using brass too long that has been weakened by hard crimping.

I haven't had your problems with my Beretta. Knock alloy. The only problem I've ever had was a round that just wouldn't feed properly. Turned out it came from the factory with the bullet seated too deep. Didn't notice it in loading and thank god it didn't shoot (might have had really high pressures with the bullet that deep). Most of my magazines are Pro Mag made though and I usually only load eight at a time. Maybe that makes a slight difference.

Thanks,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 14:39:49 (ZULU)

Try the rubbing alcohol trick, clean you rod between strokes.... OOPs, wipe your BORE cleaning rod off after each 10 stroke run series, clean the bore guide, and relax you'll get super popeye forearms with all the extra work and no gain.You can just pour my bottle of Jack Black into Al O's camelbak at the Carlos Match in October OK.

Andre,

Been using the nylon brushes for some time now and they work great. The weirdo-type air rifle shooters use weed wacker line pull throughs and refuse to brush conventionally, but they are conned into using PFTE barrel lubricants too...... Big problem with air rifles is the micro dimensions of the lands and grooves but I clean mine conventionally and have for 20 + years.

Chao!
 
 

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 14:40:38 (ZULU)

The article was talking about the reason why you always see Beretta pistols on TV & Movies. Apparently, they are the only pistols that will shoot, feed and eject, consistently and reliably with blank rounds. At least according to Hollywierd.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with duty, self defence, or combat gunning, but it is an interesting answer to a question that has always bugged me.

Semper Fi,
André
André <akpeters@isd.net>
MPLS, MN, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 15:04:07 (ZULU)

the coating of bullets with "MOLY" wins also in Germany always more friends. So I have ordered me recently the corresponding accessory for this process. Before that, I have had produced me coated bullets by a firm. The outer appearance of the coated bullets was very brilliantly. My now personally manufactured bullets do not have these brilliantly character, because they are sooner dull. Also by the growing it does not become better. There were used the same bullets. What can I do differently better, so that the same effect emerges?

I would be very happy about a recommendation.

Sincerely

M. Hegener

M. Hegener <info@viator.de>
Dortmudn, NRW, Germany - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 15:50:24 (ZULU)

As far as guns if doodoo hits the fan you want easy to get ammo 9mm and 223.
Mike <mikeroyexc@aol.com>
Somewhere in the Mountains of, MT, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 16:19:27 (ZULU)

Getting a totally clean patch is not easy or really worth it. No matter how clean you get the bore, another application of solvent will usually get a little more fouling to seep out of the microscopic crevices in the barrel. I am not sure ANYTHING will get that stuff out completely, short of something like the Outers Foul Out system. Do you even need to get it that clean? I doubt it. Regular "normal" cleaning is usually sufficient to maintain accuracy. You will almost always find a little dark matter on a patch if you run one through the next day. I seriously doubt this would affect accuracy at all. What does kill accuracy is copper build up. You have to get the copper out to the extent that it is not lining the interior walls of the bore and changing the diameter or smoothing over the lands. Normal cleaning with solvents designed to remove copper is all you need. Even then, if you were to leave some solvent overnight in a totally clean bore you would still see a little blue or green on the patch. It too can come out of the crevices. In other words, you might be tilting at windmills here.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 17:20:50 (ZULU)

It takes me about five consecutive days to “clean” the bore of my rifles.
Every day the drill is the same.
One dry patch pushed from bore to muzzle.
Twenty passes of a brass bristle brush with as much Hoppes #9 as the brush will hold.
Five dry patches.
One patch wetted with hoppes #9

This seams to allow the lead, copper and powder fouling to leach out of the bore. At the end of the cycle patches do come out clean except for the reaction of the solvent to the brushes and jags. If there is a muzzle break the seam between it and the barrel traps powder and solvent that can foul a clean patch.

mw

Michael <mikewood_@excite.com>
Houston, Texas, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 17:25:58 (ZULU)

My issue with the PSS, and the main reason I had work done on mine, was the throat (freebore) that spanned from here to eternity. Now that was a real issue for me. The rifle shot factory ammo very well indeed but I wanted to improve on it with handloads. That meant seating near the lands and this was impossible in a magazine length round. But that cheapo hammer forged tube shot very well regardless. In my case I did not actually have to have the work done as some have assumed. I WANTED to have it done to see what the result would be and to possibly get an article out of it. I wanted to see if the work was worth it since the mods are so popular. Some have taken this to mean that the rifle needed the work done to function as advertised. It did not. I had money to burn and curiosity to sate. Prior to the work the average group was .6 to .7 with lows in the .4s and a rare high in the .8s. Some of this was due to various handloads. Fed GM usually printed a solid .6 moa. What the work did do was uniform the shape of the group from a strung out line to a concentric circle. Not sure a terrorist/hostage holder would much care either way.

I would certainly contend, at least with the mid 1990s and earlier PSS’, the notion that one could not expect good accuracy beyond 75 rounds. I would maintain that this is wrong headed from two perspectives. In the real world of LE sniping it seems like a non-issue outside of training (although I must admit it would have been nice to see during the LA riots…sorry for not being PC here, but I rank thieves and looters with the worst of them. It is a private property thang). In a real use environment, the rifle would never be fired more than a few rounds and fouling is not really an issue beyond the CBS. We are not talking WAR rifles here. But in training, at least in my personal experience, firing 150 rounds from 100 yards to 1000 yards with out any cleaning did not seem to have much effect on accuracy either IN THIS ONE RIFLE (emphasis added, another might not like this treatment at all!). The groups might not have been as tight, but they stayed within MOA. As an experiment (I’m lazy, and was looking for an excuse) I did not clean for two days just to see what would happen. Nothing. The darn thing grouped as expected. Cleaning was no worse than normal. Luck of the draw or divine intervention? Beats me. I guess what I am trying to say here Bolt, is that you need to go shoot the thing a lot before passing judgement one way or another. Do not sweat the dirty patch. Just go do some serious plinking at various ranges and see what you got. Just the other Day CJ showed me a rifle (M1 Garand) with a nasty, dark, ugly, fouled looking bore that he swears was the best shooting iron he had for a time. Until you put a lot of rounds down range you will never know if you have a pigs ear or a golden egg. Some rifles get better the more you shoot ‘em, some get worse. This is typical no matter who made the things. Each has a personality unto itself.

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 18:00:27 (ZULU)

James Hicks <hicks@zso.dec.com>
Seattle, WA, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 19:47:46 (ZULU)

What do you gentlemen use for rifle grease?
recon
Ron <recon@midusa.net>
Iola , kansas, USA - Monday, June 14, 1999 at 22:32:37 (ZULU)

I am just blown away on how you stand behind your product and the lengths that you go insure customer satisfaction. You and your staff extend yourself's beyond expectations and I would be a lesser person if I did not publicly acknowledge your efforts. In the day and age of get as much as you can as fast as you can, you and your company will go far on word of mouth alone. Keep up the good work!!

EyeMan
EyeMan <stepmont@dfn.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 00:36:15 (ZULU)

I'm thinking about buying ghillie suit from Arizona Response Systems.
I like to hear your opinion on their ghillie suit. Please post your reply here or to my email address. I'm sure real sniper would say
don't buy it but build it! I wish I had enough time to build my own ghillie
but don't have much free time and I hate to make a ghillie suit of poor quality.
 

Cheap Military Surplus .308

Looks like nobody responded to my previous post. I bought some
Talon bullets which use military surplus .308 components. It comes in
147 grain so maybe it's not suited for sniping but I think it works great
on shooting paper, clay, or any other targets you might encounter on the
range. Please let me hear your opinon on this. I presume ya'll shoot
match grade 175 grain or something but I'm sure there are budget conscious
shooters like me out there.

Thanks and happy shootin!
sh00ter <averageguy_nextdoora@yahoo.com>
H.B., CA, USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 01:09:58 (ZULU)

The name of the range is Hawks Ridge. The dues are $40.00 per year. Members can shoot on Friday and Saturday. Matches are held every 3rd Saturday (have one this weekend) of the month. 1000 yard shooting only! Very strict range rules, which is good.

Your membership will be with the North Carolina 1000 Yard Benchrest Shooters Association.
Bolt <mbolt34547@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 01:25:27 (ZULU)

Bruce in Florida: Well, why didn't you say so! If it was a UTK thesis, it shouldn't be too hard to find... I'll look into it next time I'm in the library, though a name would be a great help.

Bolt: You weren't in the Marine Corps, eh? The armorers wouldn't take rifle back in if it didn't pass a clean patch! Nah, I'm taking a little liberty there, it wasn't that bad... Usually a patch had to pass through with only CLP coming out with normal effort (not scrubbing). Of course, if they scrubbed they'd better not find oodles of black streaks on the patches... very light markings were okay on the patch. Of course, with time you get to where you know where certain armorers check the closest, and you know which spots get the most fouling, so you would clean it according to the conditions that it will be subject to in the inspection. Personally? I'd clean it until you're satisfied. If it's your rifle, and you know what fouling does, you'll clean it until you think that it is acceptable.

L8R,
 
 

Leslie Bright <lbright@utk.edu>
TN, USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 03:07:54 (ZULU)

Saveral people have asked about the use of 175 grainers. I have started to get some some "fairly" respectable groups using the 175 grainers, but nothing to write home to mom about. Usually hovering around the 1 MOA mark. Still the 168 are the best provided the baarrel is clean (Unfouled by copper) and the right brass, bullet, powder, primer combo. (Mine still seems to be LC match brass, WInchester large rifle primers, 43 to 43.5 grains of Varget or 44 grains of Vit 550 and Hornady 168 moly bullets.) I find it a little strange that none of the powder weights even approaach maximum pressures. Ill take the accuracy over the extra 100 fps any day.

Gun Grease and / or Oil: One of the best gun oils I have found and I use is Cleanzoil (Box 80226, Canton, Ohio 44708-0226) It cleans and lubricates quite well without leaving any sticky residue after sitting around ones expensive metallic smokepoles. Now if you were to ask peteR which oil he prefers, he would probably recommend KY lubricating jelly, or Vagisil, a tasty lub on the market called Joy Jelly. Nothing like having one item to take care of two problems. Ain't that right Buddy?? And you just leave the ol' water pack alone. I've already tried it to find out how much Miller Lite it will hold and it will almost hold a complete 6 pack and keep it cold.

See you later folks.

al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Starting it Up again in , Ohio, USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 05:03:14 (ZULU)

While I can not speak to the best handgun for a 'sniper' be it LE or Military, I do have an opinion and some food for thought in general.

The Glock is a fine weapon in many respects. It is the essence of simplicity, it is tough as a piece of rebar and it is pretty darn accurate for the ranges it is intended for. I have shot them in both 45 and 9mm and enjoyed both. I do prefer the smaller model 19 with the pinkie extension on the mag. If the extension is not present it feels funky and unballanced. I have never once experienced a failure to fire or failure to eject on a Glock even at very high rates of fire.

Having said that I am very leary of the Glock for a duty weapon unless the person is very well trained. The lack of a positive safety (no I don't consider the trigger safety a real safety) is, IMHO, concerning.

The venerable old Colt Model 1911A1 still remains my favorite semi. I have shot many many of these in different variations from the original 1911 (one made in 1917) to the Commander (a compact version) to some very heavily modified target guns. Without a doubt this weapon is my favorie semi handgun. I HAVE had jams with 1911's. Usually this happened with a modified gun or with 1911s that had not been fired much. On a couple of occasions it was because of bad rounds with less than adequate powder charges. The older commanders that I have fired seemed more suceptible to stovepipe jamming as well. Having said that, in general 1911 jams were pretty darn rare and the weapons used ranged from badly abused and worn to perfect and out of the box new.

The safety system on the Colt 1911 is excelent for a single action semi. The grip safety and the slide (thumb) safety are excellent and in my personal opinion would keep this weapon from accidental discharge far better than a safety on the damn trigger ... hehehe. Particularly so when unholstering...

Mention has been made of the relative abuse that can be taken by Glocks as opposed to the 1911. The 1911 was put through enormous numbers of tests in 1907 which included much of what would happen in combat conditions. This is the only online reference I know of but I have a book that details those tests better. Bottom line is unless you ABUSE your weapon nearly on purpose you probably wont note much of a functional difference. The 1911 was selected after a huge amount of abusive tests.

Wheel guns like the Python or the S&W 586 are of course very simple and very easy to become proficient with. Reloading is of course where you lose a lot of time, but speed loaders help that some. I have had more severe stopages on my S&W 586 than on any of the semis I have however. Why? A couple reasons... I tend to over lubricate and when I fire revolver I fire LOTS of rounds in one sitting. The combination results in a dirty too-tight cylendar. To clear stupidity like that takes a cleaning whereas in the semis jam clearing generally means a little manipulation. Wheel guns with tight tolerances are quite suceptible to dirty conditions in my experience.

The difference in the Python and the Smith (asside from a couple hundred bucks) is that their cylenders rotates in a different direction and to open one you push t c-release forward (S&W) while on the Colt its pulled backward. The latter feels awkward for me especially when trying to do it fast.

Caliber choice is very important as well. 9mm tend to overpenetrate and while delivering fatal wounds may not give you the decisive and *immediate* results you are looking for at close range. One of the books in my library, (I believe its the Tactical Edge by Remsburg) covered this in depth showing a morgue shot of a suspect that had been nailed something like 23 times with 9mm rounds. If I remember right they finally ended his action with a shotgun. My preference is 45.

Bottom line however is that if you do not hit what you intend - center of mass or better - you'll lose regardless of the caliber, make, model, or look. I am personally a lot more proficient with my 586 than with my 1911. As much as I love the old 45, I am more confident in my abilities with the revolver and would probably do better with it in an ugly situation. Most police discharges happen within 7 yards of a suspect. If I was a cop I'd want the situation over with NOW and not have to wait for the suspect to bleed out.

Get a weapon that you feel good with, is robust in general, and take good care of it.. oh and put a few thousand rounds down the thing.(read practice like hell.) If at all possible get some good training so you dont develop bad habits. These will make more difference than anything else.

Briefly About shotguns:

I also like the Remington model 870 it is a robust weapon and carried by a lot of police departments in California. If it will stand up to the abuse cops can dish out it has to say something. The Mossberg model 500 is also not a bad weapon if you are on a tight budget.

The idea that the shot is going to spread enough at indoor distances to make a lot of difference to the point of not having to be accurate is bull however. Manipulating a long-gun in a tight environment is also a trick.
JT <confidentialacct@hotmail.com>
N/D, Ca, USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 05:04:40 (ZULU)

If I were to bring my rifle to the local shop, what shop service will give me more accuracy for the dollar on an Remington 700?
 

Joe <waspator@workmail.com>
IL, USA - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 05:27:08 (ZULU)

Eat sh*t and bark at the moon, will ya!? (Oh, and by the way, if you would stumble upon my rear scope cover, front scope cover, pruning-shears and/or canteen cap please bring them back...)

Lesson learned: Whenever you take something out to the field, make sure it is properly secured to you or you will LOOSE IT! At times I was worried that I would leave SMTC with only my underwear left....

McNab: In your list I missed an essential piece of equipment. Being an Airforce brat, I see the need to be able to call in CAS in other ways then just shouting and waving at them. A good dose of "snake and nape" does wonders at times. How about a radio?
Missed you out there, dude!

L8er!

Stefan
Stefan <stefan@sniperhide.com>
Somewhere, Someplace, The Netherlands - Tuesday, June 15, 1999 at 09:48:58 (ZULU)

Seriously, you can get a bbl about as clean as you would ever want to bother easily withing 45 minutes or so, if that. By the end of that time you will be able to run clean patches through the bbl with very little, if any, discoloration from fouling. If you are spending more time than that, it is either overkill, or you are doing something wrong.

Fact is, you can clean a bore well enough with a handful of patches and TEN minutes. But if you prefer to have it as clean as reasonably possible between sessions, there's nothing wrong with that, and it can be done quite easily within an hour at MOST.

Just don't excessively wear out the bore. let the chemicals do