Shows you how much I like to read directions :)>

My wife says its a guy thing. I usually use directions as a reference only when I cannot go any further. I think its more like a LOU thing.

It was probably more like the Marinas only carried white and when I came here I only found gray, yea thats it.

I must be getting old amigo

Lou

Lou V <XNYCowboy@aol.com>
The Zoo, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 02:08:51 (ZULU)

I've used a 1000 or so rounds.  All of it ran through a Daewoo DR-200.  Never had a problem feeding or extracting, but this thing is a meat grinder and would probably chamber rocks.   No residue in my chamber (crome lined) or damaged ejector.  The only trouble I've has to date was 2 pierces primers, or primers that were too soft and it blew parts of the skin off leaving the anvil exposed.  No damage, but not good considering.  

For the price I used to get IMI M-193 for I'd stick with it.(I like the TZZ brass)  But it's become hard to come by in the last 18 months or so for some reason. ;))

I would recommend NOT using Wolf in .40S&W.  The Wolf 40 cal pistol ammo my friend "tried" to use in his Glock 27 was pure junk.  Failures to extract, misfires, failure to feed...  No thanks...

Wes,

I can't thank you enough.  I should have rounds down range by Saturday evening, work permitting. Another FagMag shooter enters the fray.....

FatBoy...  

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
147gr FMJ!!!! 13,987,098 dead guys can't be wrong ;)), - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 02:20:21 (ZULU)

On the 6"-8" groups at 1000 yards.  At least Dean chose the rifle that gives the best chance...........a SAVAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 02:23:57 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 02:31:01 (ZULU)

CDC - good luck in your quest.  You will get a headache figuring those varible tests and thingys.

Greg - A cheek weld is a mis-nomer.  Use the bottom of your jaw and let your head settle on your stock.  As the jaw slides down the stock, you will find that you have built up an area under the cheek bone that is skin and muscle.  This build up will lift your head high enough to see and will allow you to let the enite weight of you head rest on the stock.  I would not use an attached cheek piece.  Too many possible variables.

Bill - Try the Russain sites that sell their wonderful gear.  They have slide rules and circular rules for sale.  A little pricy but what the heck.  Let them try a little old capitalism and you can help!!!  :-)

Did someone say Horrid Vision?  Opps!!  Horus Vision?  Mike I thought their computer chip thingy was to show you where to aim with their multi-line, multi-ticmark multi-headache scope reticle.  Shephard?  Naw.  Even worse then that!!!  :-)

Gooch - thought it was a thorizine shuffle some were in, oh well.

My 1/2 cent and not even any techno babble.

Hold hard guys!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 02:43:55 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:48:45 (ZULU)

F*#%in AY, I had the same problem as Greg. I was considering replacing the stock on my Savage but it works just fine now!.

ALL,

As you all know by now I am a "civilian". My question is;

Do Military and police actually fire at living targets from 1000 yards away?.If the best shooters lets say can do 10 inch groups which to me is spectacular, wouldn't this still be to much margin of error for a kill shot in lets say a hostage situation? If this is true and this is a sniper site, why is anyone having this conversation with Dean in the first place? Is he pushing this ammo for the law enforcment community or for the competition community?

I know many of you are benchrest/competition shooters but Im talking real life practicality.

Lou

Lou V <XNYCowboy@aol.com>
The Zoo, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 03:55:57 (ZULU)

I remember reading or seeing a review of the then new NXS line of scopes from Nightforce.  In the review after sighting in the rifle the reviewer took the scope off the gun (including rings) took the scope and tossed it up in the air.  I don't remember the height it went but he allowed it to come down and smack the ground without trying to catch it.  There was a comment made about the looks from others there at the range when they saw this.  He picked it up blew off the dust mounted it and was still on target!  If I remember right he then did a track test, adjusting between shots until all groups were fired, again no problems.

You won't find me tossing my $1,000+ scopes like that!  Oh! that's right I don't have any unless I get Premier to put that new Gen 2 Mil-Dot in my Mark 4 M3 and then I still won't toss it.  Worth to much money to be risking damage, besides they deserve more respect then that!  But if anyone else wants their scope tested you can feel free to contact me.  After I get it I'll let you know what it took for me to break it :( so you will know what not to do to your new scope :).

They do seem to be confusing though.  I went to their site, http://www.nightforceoptics.com/nxs.html, to try and find the review I mentioned.  I noticed a feature they call "Zero Stop for NXS."  Here is what they say about it:

Developed for military use on NXS models, this feature allows the shooter to set a zero at any distance. When returning back to the zero, the elevation dial will stop and read zero. This can be done in total darkness, underwater, or in any stressful situation without the need for visual confirmation. This feature eliminate the possibility of the shooter losing count of what rotation the zero is set on. New scopes can be equipped with this valuable feature before leaving the factory.

If you already own an NXS scope, factory experts can customize your scope to add additional functionality to what is already the most extreme riflescope you’ve ever owned.

Then they turn around and say, "STATUS Not Available to the Public"

They say they can't answer e-mail because of the volume so if you have an interest in this you will have to call them to get straightened out!

You might also want to read the review Mike Miller wrote: http://www.snipercountry.com/NightforceNXS.html

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 04:30:36 (ZULU)

        Just got a new winny stealth in 308 can,t wait to

        get her to the range to braker her in if she is a good shooter i am going to one in 223  any way got go

                      tony   pss does any one on the roster shoot a stealth if so how does it shoot?

tony kilmer <tony3006@msn.com>
spokane, wa, U.S.ofA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 05:31:37 (ZULU)

>"ps does any one on the roster shoot a stealth if so how does it shoot?"<

HA!... the guys on the Roster have cornered the market on the Stealths... I have 3 (one .223, and two .308s), and they shoot great.

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 10:17:22 (ZULU)

Lito, and any one else, you ever get over this side of the pond during hunting season(any time out side Feb and March) and we can go and shoot some roe deer, it costs money, but its Great Fun and challenging too. And when the bambi lovers complain, we tell em trees have feelings too, and the nasty deer chew and scrub and hurt the trees.

SSGT Adam, where are you headed this side of the pond buddy, we can meet up with Marco and sink some cold ones, you may even join our club, "the fellowship of the fall asleep on a tree stand/miss all the pigs " and if your at a loose end between August 4th and 10th, join us in SCotland.

Marco, where the hell have these Euro firearms passes got to?? we need to get the visitors passes soon !! gimme a call will ya..

Jon B. ref what you said about 50 BMG and the UK firearms legislation, a mate of mine wanted a 50 cal muzzle loader, the local firearms licensing dept didn't know what 50 cal was, so he had to take in a lead ball and one of those sabot things and show em it,  oh oooo no, to big, look at the dammage that would do, can't have it.

about 6 months later he got chance of a Barratt/barret,(its been a long morning), so he applied for a variation for a .50BMG "target rifle" and he got the permission, obviously the licensing dept got muddled and figured 5 OBMG was probably .5cm, and not a .5" Oh (what a) Big Machine Gun (boolit) any how, instead of a range of maybe 200 yards for the muzzle loader, he now has a range of, ... go figure.

The UK firearms legislation is the biggest load of politicaly motivated unjust unrealistic crap that has ever occured within the UK since tha bloody witch hunts in the middle ages, the association of Chief Police officers and the rest of the political arse creaping chasing a Knighthood numb skulls would do better to try to invest their energy in catching real criminals rather than attacking law abiding gun owners and protecting the rights of peadophiles, which is about all they seem to be good at.

Rant mode over !

Foxes hunting in packs, i have heared of several cases, where fox population numbers where evidently high, of foxes hunting in packs, i was sceptical untill I saw it with my own eyes, i saw 5-6 foxes herding a roe doe and her kid around the open moor, back and forth until the kid was worn out, then going in for the kill, it was amazing.

Steve Egeline, what did that sheep weight? and i agree with Danny Mull, Bal Tip's up to 30 cal are meant for deer or smaller, id say 130 lbs and under, and if its a pig then id go even lower in weight before i went with a tougher bullet construction, Bal tips(same goes for Hornady Interlock and SST) are a very fine deer/thin skinned game bullet, but if the game is big enough( like the 150kg boar my mate Geoff shot last year where the Hornady stopped before exiting,100% energy delivery, but that pig ran off and without a blood trail was a right bitch to find) I want a tougher bullet.

To all, using match bullets on game other than varmints, foxes crows etc is irresponsible, the exemption bieng where the bullet size and mass just create enough dammage on their own, .40-.50 cal probably fall into this catagory, ang ofcourse, not match bullets, but solids for penetrating very large game work in the right scenario.

Testing match bullets on game with a view to research into terminal ballistics/wound ballistics for comparison on human targets is acceptable, for a start it would be done under controlled conditions, (and IMHO should be performed on rapists, kiddie fiddlers and death row inmates any how, but hell that wouldn't be politicaly correct now would it)

Ron, I agree shot placement is everything, did the 165gr BTSP Hornady exit the elk?

Jon I will check with the vet ref the dog injection, mine is due last week, which is why im removing so many bloody ticks just now, and i would be very interested in any human anti tick born nasty's vaccine.

Bill, Sellio + Belliot, yuk !! i wouldn't let that stuff any where near any gun i cared about, eee bah !

right, sorry for long post, think I've cought up, time to check the email.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 11:18:56 (ZULU)

  The lost has returned!! I was catching up on the DR and see the meds have wore off again. Pete, you better up the dosage again(HA).

 I love it when the big dogs get to going at it and all the info gets thrown about. I manage to soak up some more new info or learn something that I didn't know.

 I got the chance to spend some quality time shooting with my son down in Iowa last week and met anactual Camp Perry 1000yd winner. A very nice gentleman. He was trying out a new 6-250. He shot it pretty well to for and "Old Guy" using peep sights.

Wes & Chris..

  I left my "Fag Mag" with Jr. and it was tough to do but I know its going to a good home. I have a bad pulled groin muscle and will not be able to compete this summer so I wanted him to use it.

  It really treated me nice the day I shot it. The first 5 group at 200yds to check the zero went into 5/8". We shot at 600yds and I shot a 3 shot group into a 1.5". I know Catman real men shoot 5 shot groups but I was running low on ammo(HA)

  I shot a lot of rounds down range with the 308 competing with Jr. and got spanked a couple of times, but we had a ball. I plan on shooting the rest of the barrel out of my 260 this summer and then maybe having George put on my new Kreiger in the fall.

  I got to shoot on the "NopTel" system or something like that. Its some fancy lazer thing that hooks up to a computer and shows you how bad of a shoter that you really are. It will show you where your sights are on the target before you pull the trigger and where the shot hits and then where the sights are during the trigger "Squeeze" and also your follow through.

 When I got done shooting a five shot string it looked like some kid got mad at his Etch a Scetch!! I can see where it would be a great training aid though.

To the gentleman with the tight brass in his 6.5x284..

  I would think you may have a problem other than brass. I have a couple of lots of Norma and none of it does what yours is doing. You may not have the correct chamber for the brass. I had a similar problem with my first one. It would shoot and chamber Norma but I got pressue signs right away when I started to load up to where I was shooting  with the Win. brass.

 One of them was the second loading they closed hard and the 3rd loading the primer was loose. I would check to see if this may be your problem. Good Luck let us know what you find out.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 14:01:37 (ZULU)

So Wolf Ammo goes bang well thats a plus.  I look for a little more out of ammo.  On the Sellor and Bellot.  I had some very good ammo from them and some crap so who knows.

Varget versus RL15.  I like the Varget in 308 with 175's.

On 4895 I like that with 168's but never got the velocity with it for 175's.

Undude/Mike

MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 14:14:59 (ZULU)

    I believe I read somewhere that you own an AR-50.  I'm looking into getting a 50 and the AR-50 is what I am hooked on.  Do you have a problems with yours?  What kind of accuracy are you getting out of it?

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 14:38:14 (ZULU)

"Ballistic testing on pedofiles, rapists, etc., is OK". Hmmm. I like that. Send a address and I'll see if I can get our DOC transport department to ship you some...seems we have plenty in the Department of Corrections facilities. Could you add gang bangers to the list, as well...;-)

Tony Kilmer: OK guys, I'll fess up. Tony is my brother in law. Like me a .308 shooter most of the time. Although he has been playing with the .300 WSM.

Lot's of good info on the list. Have to get ready for work and out the door...more later.

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 15:19:08 (ZULU)

A bit more on the techno-stuff . . .

"The Horus Aim Finder software will run on any Palm/Handspring with the Palm OS of 3.1 or greater.

There are several ways to obtain the software.

First it may be down loaded free of charge from our web site to be placed on a desk top and subsequently "HotSynced " on to a Palm/Handspring. The program may be run 5 times after which it must be purchased for $99.95 and an unlock code will then be provided.

Secondly we have burned the program on to a chip that can be used on any Handspring Visor. There is no messing with 'HotSyncing" and if the batteries run down, just put in new batteries and the program is still there. Great in the field. No unlock code necessary.

The chip can be purchased separately for $114.95 or a Handspring Visor Deluxe with the chip included for can be purchased for $185.00

Additionally, we are working on providing the same program for Pocket PC's.

I hope this answers your questions and if you need more info we are available any time."

So that's the news from Mr. Buell of Horus Vision, for enquiring minds!  I'm not ready to give up my MDM, etc. and I don't think that the basic formulas should be ignored.  I may still have to get one, just "because" <heh>

John <john@leveron.com>
Missouri, U.S.A. - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 15:21:46 (ZULU)

It's about time that you stopped doing "Hunnydoos", and got back to the "Roster".  Is the pulled muscle bad enough so you can't shoot, or just can't go to matches?

-

Scott Chapman...

Yup.  I got an AR-50.  I've had it for about a year and a half.

I had wanted a 50BMG bolt gun for over 35 years, since an arsenal rebarreled Boyes 55 slipped through my fingers.

I had some brief time with a 50BMG benchrest gun that I hated.

When I saw an AR-50 for real, I ordered two on the spot (one for a friend).

Problems?  OK... None (and I mean NONE!) of your reloading poopie will work with the 50BMG.  New press (Hornady, WITH dies), new measure (Hornady), new bullet pullers etc.  All this is standard, no matter what 50BMG you get.

-

Problems specific to the AR-50...

OK, it has so little recoil, that you will shoot it a lot, which means you will go broke ;).

The muzzle break is the best design around... some also say the ugliest, and "Pat" says it's a condominimum for a large family of Hamsters,  but I love it... in fact it is so good, that AR has started making them threaded for other company's 50s, as an after market item.

If you order it, get the 50moa scope base, not the 15moa... get Barrett 30mm adjustable rings, and get a 30mm scope that has 90 moa of elevation, or MORE!  That means a Leupold MK4-M1 10x or 16x, a B&L 10x Tac, or some of the others... otherwise you will find your self short on elevation when you need it.  There are matches around the country that exceed 2000 meters, and you will need all the elevation you can get.  You don't need a lot of magnification... 10x is fine, 15x is a lot.  The things you will be shooting at aren't very small, and you have a much better than a "minute of oil drum" at 1500, and "minute of Volkswagon at 2000", ;))

Also, get their case for it, as it won't fit in hardly anything else.

Most AR-50s have a very long throat (I haven't found mine yet ;)... so seat bullets out long... I seat A-MAx's and M48's to 6.0" AOL.  And API, APIT, and Blues, to 5.45" so they will fit in the ammo cans.

At 100yds, I get around 1/2" with 750 A-Max's, and around 3/4" with machine pulled M48's (my favorite pyrotechnic), same with Blues, and API.

I use 5010-PD powder for the military bullets, and H-50BMG for the match A-Max's.

I use a Parker-Hale steel bipod, with the P-H palmstop/spigot adaptor, (it was sitting around doing nothing) and that works out well.  Guys say the Harris works well too, but it looked a little light in the loafers for a 40 pound riffle (35 pounds are in the barrel).

I love the gun, and have shot 150 rounds in an afternoon, without discomfort... it recoils like a 12 pound 308 match rifle...a long push.

Keep your mouth closed when you light the fuse... the concussion from the muzzle break is awsom, and it will make your teeth ache latter.

If I had the choice to do it over again, I would get an AR-50 in a New York minute.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 15:57:18 (ZULU)

  Yea, I know its been a long spell but I am getting cought up now. I pulled a groin muscle trying to run some hills and its a bad deal esp. at my age, I guess.

  It happend about 6 to 7 weeks ago and I can just now walk normally without any pain during the day so I tried a longer walk last night and now I am sore again this morning.

  I can still shoot though and plan on doing a bunch of it soon but my competing is done. The ones I go to around here are the physical kind and I am not going to try it without being in shape. I went to Wyoming a couple of years ago in so so shape and it damn near killed me!!(HA).

 I plan on shooting my old 260 alot again, I've kindof neglected her since I got the "Fag Mag" and I know she's feeling hurt. I will be intrested in the outcome of the deal with Dean.

 I do a lot of 800+ yd shooting and I am damn impressed if he can do that. I get some groups once in awhile that even you wouldn't belive but I sure can't repeat them on a daily basis and esp with a SSS SSava... Well you know(HA).

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 16:37:14 (ZULU)

I am a Sales Engineer in the Power Business. In my little spare time I like to shoot. I wish I had more time to shoot. But between running a business and a family it just doesn't happen.

But its the people like me, who spend $1500-2000 on a rifle and another $750-1250 for a scope, $250-750 for reloading equipment, powder, bullets etc that drive the shooting industry...

So were am I going...Customer Service...A company like Lost River has a very limited customer base to choose from...Your not going to create more long range shooters over night. The number of shooters is very finite and is not growing like the computer business.

If I were a person working for Lost River, The last thing I would do is have an arguement on the internet. Regardless of what happens, whether you win or loose the arguement, you put your company in question, to the people who should be buying your product.

You have already lost valuable customers indirectly because of your lack of professionalism...

I would be fired for something like that.

With a new product, the proof is in the PUBLISHED data and achievements...Thats what get customers to buy the new product.

Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 16:52:46 (ZULU)

  Thanks for all the great info.  I am really looking forward to getting mine.

Scott

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 16:58:40 (ZULU)

Since you consider the Hornady SST to be a thin skinned game/deer bullet what do you consider the Swift Scirocoo (sp??) bullets to be?? They have a polimer tip like the SSTs but thay maybe just to help w/ the BC rating. Are they a heavier constructed bullet, i.e., elk/moose, or just another new age deer bullet???

danny mull <drm8194@hotmail.com>
akron, ohio, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 17:11:41 (ZULU)

45 Wolf Ammo is the most accurate in my Kimber Custom 45...2-2.5" @ 25yds. 4" @ 50yds. PS I am not very accurate with a Pistol.  

I shouldn't admit this here, but I can not get my reloads to shoot as accurately as the Wolf Ammo.

No problems yet with about 400rds of it...

just my 2 cents worth.

bryan

Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 18:14:01 (ZULU)

>"We shot at 600yds and I shot a 3 shot group into a 1.5". I know Catman, real men shoot 5 shot groups but I was running low on ammo (HA)"<

I'm gonna send you some pics of the "Black Mamba" I built two years ago, and the 3 shot group I shot on a 3.5" computer disk... I would'a shot five, but after I shot the third round and looked at the disk through the spotting scope, I thought I had only hit it once, so I quit and went to some other targets... didn't know it was 0.46" (405yds), 'til the guy brought back the targets.  But don't ask me to do it again... HA!

... and Yeah, I would L-O-V-E to be able to shoot 6" to 8" groups at 1000 yds as "standard groups".  I'd quit my day job and start shooting matches for a living.  However, I ain't gonna quit.  I got locked in a phone booth with the door closed, and missed it three times... from the inside ;)) Double HA!!

-

Scott...

My pleasure... Drop me an e-mail (to remind me), and I'll give you lotsa 50BMG skinny.  First piece of advice... DON'T cheap out on the scope!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 18:20:50 (ZULU)

Reading your posts on Hypothesis and Statistics gave me a head ache....

All I know is that, You sure have your work cut out for you.

Good Luck...

Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
CA, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 18:23:01 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 20:43:47 (ZULU)

on 1000 yard law enforcement shots.....  it has never happened.    If I an not mistaken the longest law enforcement shot was 8 or 9 years ago in Washigton DC at the Washington Memorial.  Like 470 yards or somthing.  The police agency was national parks police or somthing like that.  Some nut job was holding the memorial hostage with what he said was a van full of explosives.  things did not not turn out in his favor 168grn lobatomy!!   not exactly shure on the exact details of this deal but that is what I remember.

The only time I can see attempting a 800 plus shot would be on an active barricaded shooter   like whitman at Austin university ,I think it was, back a long time ago!!!!! like in the 60s or somthing.

ha ha I wasn't born yet

hostage shots on a stationary target,very stationary, out to 600 depending on conditions I think would be my outside edge,  if you cant get closer than that there is a problem.

I have been on my departments team for 7 years, 2 as assault team and 5 as a sniper, the most distance I have ever been from a "problem" was 107 yards    most are inside 50 yards.  I have used my gillie suit more for warmth than I have for concealment.

I am a longrange rifle instructor and have shot successfily at 1000 yards. difficult enough with out any stress     put life or death situation on your shoulders and then try it       stress will do bad  things to the level of concentration it takes to shoot at that range.     anyway my .2cents

Jim Anderson <OCSO245@HOTMAIL.COM>
OKC, OK, USA - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 20:59:20 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 21:47:06 (ZULU)

Typical.  You got everyone all fired up to pander a product and now you sit back and watch the rosterfarians simmer.  Am I the only one who is picking up on this?  Nothing like a little Psy-Ops huh?

Out here

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 22:25:42 (ZULU)

Personally I use either Barnes X or Winchester/Nosler Failsafe or partitions...depending on what shoots best for our N.American Elk (minute of Cervus elaphus is pretty large at 30-06 range).  However, I've been known in my youth to use a 303 Brit. (Enfield #4, Mk. 1 made by Savage) for most everything.  Its probably different now with new bullet technologies (and prices), but I personally believe its easier to construct a bullet that performs well (expands and penetrates without disintegration) when impact velocities are under 2700fps compared to over 3000fps.  IMHO I sometimes wonder if Nosler partitions aren't the worst of both worlds... excessive expansion of the front half (disintegration) coupled with excessive penetration of the back half (little wound channel).  I've shot any number of our Mule Deer with 180g. Hornadays, and have uniformly good performance... adequate wound channel with complete penetration.

Given the hobbs choice, I'd pick penetration every time over expansion every time... good shot placement works fine with penetration (even solids work well with good shot placement), while explosive expansion can fail even with good shot placement.... my .02.

Steve Egeline <nsege@centurytel.net>
Lakeview, OR, - Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 22:42:30 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 00:40:00 (ZULU)

I am due to report to Brunnsum, Netherlands by August 20. The old lady wants to go back to Texas and visit her and my folks before being gone for 3 years. I told her about Marco wanting a get together to drink some brews. She told me I would make friends with a trash dumpster if I knew it would talk back.

Looking forward to joining ANY club as long as I can hunt and shoot.

As soon as I get there and get plugged in I'll give you two a shout.

Thanks for the hospitality,

Adam

SSG Adam G. Scott <adamgscott@msn.com>
Ft. Meade, MD, USA - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 01:51:14 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 01:52:34 (ZULU)

Cannot get past the gazzilion lines and marks on the Horus scoep reticle.  good luck Mike and I wish you the best. Let us know how it fairs.

Jim - I would be very leary of shooting in a hostage situation where a low percentage shot is presented at 600.  I know you did not state low percentage, but even near would make it very dicey.  As the wind comes up the odds fall drastically.  Had a fish tail put a guy on either side of an FBI head at 400 meters for 5 shots.  Alternating left, right etc, and BOY WAS HE PISSED!  :-)

Dam CDC, was looking forward to the PhD disertation on that one! ;-)

Catman - You mean you can't?

Actually have been known to shoot a tight group now and then.  Of course I screw it up with the second shot.

Got a course running and 24 new bright eyes.  Giving a class on sight adjustment and zero tomorrow.  This means I get to explain the moa and mil junk to new guys and watch 24 hogs looking at wrist watches until the light bulb comes on.

Hold Hard guys.

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 01:57:45 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 04:05:08 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 04:08:27 (ZULU)

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 06:12:17 (ZULU)

Joe S.,

 I am glad the Medical community found the answer.  My wife and I have you and yours in our prayers.  

I just scored some bridge steel scrap-metal (1/2 inch thick and hard as woodpecker lips).  My nephew will cut 10 inch circles and e-type sillouhettes for a whopping cost of nuthin'!  Looks like I will lay in my range before the 4th of July!  Yi-haaa.  Only now I hear that I have to get it approved by the state DNR to shoot center fire during off seasons (re:summer months).  Typical government involvement in a simple use of MY land!  I'll build it first, then find out what laws I am breaking...The last thing I want is a public range in my backyard.  Just when I thought I had it made...here comes big brother!  Dang...

Nicole is pretending to be perfectly healthy and is offially in remission.  The steroids have her puffed up like a little cherub and eating like her older brother, but that is good to see!  And so far, she is tolerating the nastier chemo very well too.  I owe much to all who posted and emailed support; those early few days were beyond my ability to deal with.  I really couldn't see getting to here from there, especially after the code blue scares on day 3.  You all pulled me up and I thank you.  I came here for scholarly advice on all things shooting, but I ended up getting so much more.  It is you and those like you that make me proud to wear my uniform.  

And, speaking of uniforms-1 July I get to change all the insignia of grade (and it is to the next higher one this time)!  OK, so I was busted once.  But now I be a field grade!  It'll go straight to my head, so ya'll just watch out.  Who says you need a high school diploma to get by?  Ha : )  OK, so don't tell my son I just said that....But from now on, I am not just a pain in the ass, I will be a MAJOR pain in the ass...BTW, what is this lobotomy thing they say I have to get?  Didn't I get one when I traded my E7 chevrons in for that butter bar???  Bottom line:  No more action-guy...now I'll just be the planner.  Well, I had fun along the way...at least I can still be "near" troops!  I will miss hands-on command though...damn...

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Eau Claire, WI, US of A - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 07:28:10 (ZULU)

hang on a minute, Fat Boy Chris invites all us hard working, gun toting law abiding citizens to come to the USA, but a %age of the Roster hawgs jump on the boat going the other way, what gives?

I was out hunting last night, it rained so my intention of shooting a buck got all washed out, me n the dog sheltered up a tree stand for a couple of hours and where entertained by a red squirrel for an hour, fascinating watching wild life, beats world cup football(socker) any day, but then so does watching paint dry. Stalking back to the car I heard movement in the bush, to dark to see with naked eyes, but closer inspection with bino's revealed dark shapes, one more step forward to get a better angle and a bunch of pigs broke out of the bush in front of me grunting and snorting, didn't have time to shoulder the rifle, nice to get so close without bieng noticed, got within maybe 15 feet before i spooked em. I wonder if i can walk on rice paper without tearing it? have to sort out the trench foot first though !

Our Spacecraft Analyist Julie (from Montana and she hunts !) just emailed me some pics of a monster Griz Bear( I forwarded em to some of you guys), apparently the world record, Shot by a forestry guy in Alaska, have any of you guys heared about this bear, it looks massive on the photos, if ever there was a reason to carry something powerfull with tough bullets in Bear Country,this is it !

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 07:38:36 (ZULU)

Cheque went in OK yesterady, got the girl to check the details and it was all correct.  Thanks again.

On bullet performance.  I have seen literally hundreds of deer ranging from roe kids to mature red stags shot from ranges of 20ft to 350yds and virtually all of them were shot with a plain old .270 130gr soft-point (RWS T-Mantel).  The favoured shot placement was to break at least one shoulder and I can't remember seeing many fail to exit, unless the shot was steeply angled through the body, and even then a rare occasion.  I have seen H-Mantel fail to exit and this was apparently a problem in Scotland on the red deer, so the Forestry Commission there changed to T-Mantel a year or so before I started; end of problem despite RWS' catalouge spin.  

On the close in shots, the bullets performed just as well.  I have only seen excessive damage when I have been using my own .300wm with 165gr Nosler BTs and I think that has had more to do with the small roe deer being more fragile, on the bigger deer the bullet has performed well usually with  an exit hole of 1.5-2".  Only once have I seen the 180gr Nos BT fail to exit and that was on a sika stag where entry was on the point of the shoulder and the bullet ended up just under the skin a few inches behind the last rib.  The shot was at a range of 70-80yds.  

Mind you, most of the problems I have had has been with my .300wm, probably because I am driving it too hard; shot a BIG red stag at about 100yds with 165gr Sierra HPBT Gameking and that failed to exit, blew up on the shoulder and caused massive internal injury, those HPBTs were far too frangible and unpredictable, so stopped using them.

I personally wouldn't have any qualms about using any quality softpoint or ballistic tip on any of the UK deer species providing the cartridge was of sufficient power (I think .243 is marginal on fallow, sika and red) and not being driven too hard for the bullet construction.  At the moment the other rangers here are using Sako .308 155gr HPBT (game bullet) on everything from roe to red and are very happy.  I have stuck with the .270 and RWS ammo (old habits die hard).  

My original query about the suitability of Nos BTs on larger game was incase I go to Africa on plains game or go back to Germany to sleep up trees ;-)  I like the look of Scirocos (spelling?) but at a cost of £1+ Sterling per bullet in the UK I don't think I will be trying them in a hurry.

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 10:21:34 (ZULU)

Jon whatsa T mantle?, do you mean TIG or TUG, I have never held RWS ammo in very high esteem, its box to box variation has been abismal, the factory has a nice canteen though, ive been there several times.

Ha, so your interested in the Africa trip eh?? well i have to get my finances in order first, this house has swallowed all my readies,, and get over here for some pigs, I'll lend you my 450M and you'll stay awake all night admiring the rifle.. you see that Grizbear in the email i sent you? what a beast eh?

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 11:10:46 (ZULU)

Did some testing on the LRB's about two years ago, nothing serious, jus the "does it shoot" sorta thingie.  100, 500, 1000 yards, three calibers, .22, .30, .338.  (did the .22 this year)

Found that at 100 it don't matter, if the gun won't shoot, it won't shoot anything.  

500 yards, seems to look somewhat better, could have been having a good day...who knows.

1000 yards, well now we got us something to do.  The .22 bullet thingie seems to just ignore wind, shot very very very very flat, accurate as hell.  

Takes a 6.5 twist barrel.  got one of those in yer pocket sparky?

The 30 cal is a good improvement over the 175 SMK, which sucks in wind anyway, so a high BC rock would do better.  Accuracy is sub moa at distance with some consistancy, better than 168 amax loads, but not enough from this shooter to warrant the added expense.

The .338 bullets were made by LRB after we sent in several sample slugs from a TRG-41 barrel, so the bullets were right for the length, size, and twist of what we had.  They shoot with phenominal accuracy at distance. Comparison was against the Sierra stuff, properly developed.

They also completely foul the barrel after 7 rounds with frightening regularity.  Bitch to clean. Could just be the barrel, we only tried one.

Bottome line for me..what we saw says these are an improvement over currently available projectiles.  Not enough to justify the expense, at least in my book, at the ranges I shoot.  I'm all out of ability past 1200 yards, and marginal at 1000.

Savage accuracy.....sorry, can't help myself.  Played with several, found that once you get the stock stabilized, work on the trigger, do a proper load development, the ones we played with will do right around MOA at distance with a good shooter on a no condition morning before things go to hell.  Nice hobby gun for the kids I suppose, but there's better for only alittle more, without the persnicketyness.

I'm done. Back to the range this morning.......I hate my job  :))

Mike

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 13:28:30 (ZULU)

Dean?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 13:33:53 (ZULU)

  Don't feel bad I remember the fist day I went to shoot to 1000yds. I was so excited because I had been waiting for the perfect day and it actually fell on a weekend. Nearly a "0" wind (Or so I thought).

 The only difference was it was at my back not in my face. I shot at 500 first and pounded them into the center of a paper plate and with all the confidence of the captain on the Titanic on her maiden voyage I headed for the 1000yd line.

 I put a IPSC target on a larger piece of card board and shot a 3 shot group which should have been dead center in the chest. (I was going to head shoot it but thought I shouldn't push my luck on the first try after all).

 On driving down to observe my "Group" I was stunned to find only two holes in the target(The cardboard backer) and one was on the let side of the cardboard (Not the IPSC target) and the other was on the right side.

  Now I know that there had to be something going on but it sure took the wind out of my sails. I sheepishly crawled back into my blazer and went back up to try it again. By this time my range land lord has shown up and wants to see someone hit something at 1000yds so now the pressure is really on.

  Next round same as the first but one did manage to clip the edge of the IPSC target this time with the other two on the right side with what appears to now be a pattern rather than a group. I am also starting to take note that I can just feel a touch of a breeze but still at my back and nothing to concern myself with.

 Being a perfectionest though I make the proper wind adjustments and shoot another group(Pattern) and am shocked to see only one bullet has clipped the left side of the IPSC target and the other two are no where to be found.

 To make a long story short I went back to town with my tail between my legs and got a "New" backer. I stopped at the GM dealer ship and asked for a box that suburbans come in and went back to the range. What I found out was my first introduction to a thing called a "FISHTAILING" wind. It would put my rounds on one side an then the other with no apparent change in the wind direction. The only way I found it was to put up a long ribbon and watch it.

 I waited until the wind came up to around 7mph quarting and dialed it in and finally started hitting something at 1000yds. It was really and eye opener for me and a good learning expereience. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ZERO WIND PAST 600yds WITH A 308!!!

Catman...

 Nice group, but you should clean off the powder burns on the disc.(HA).

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 13:42:17 (ZULU)

Show me some range time at Bragg during the expo, and i'll let you guys make the call.  The advanced computer that we have is in use overseas, by special operations units, (not US), and is giving astonishing results.  In combination with a high energy 20,000 meter laser range finder (thanks Mike <wink>) we get 1st round shots at 2000 yards and more in some pretty bad conditions.  I think you'd like to try one, which we can arrange, if we can get past this petty BS game.

I don't intentionally address the SC board and then vanish to stir up the crap.  I'm simply extremely busy and away from home for 2-3 day shots quite frequently.  No offense, but i've got other things to do than to check postings from on the road etc.  Honestly, no offense intended, but i've got bigger fish to fry.

Now, i'm sure that the webmaster can check and see that i've visited this board from time to time without addressing anything.  That'd be true too, I will have wanted to put an answer together AFTER talking with the other partners in this issue about the LRBT bullets, I do have to get their approval before doing this test / comparison etc.

With that said...

Mike, who tested the LRBT bullets a couple of years ago.  That would have been about the time he was using a different compound that was bronze to the eye, (now a copper nickel alloy that looks more like copper).  There are also 2 grades of material being used. The J40 bullet is the civilian grade target bullet that uses a much softer material and causes very little copper fouling in the barrel.  The copper fouling that is induced has little effect on the accuracy of the rifle.  During our extreme range course in Idaho in May, we were shooting at 2200+ yards after an entire day of shooting (about 70 rounds i'd guess) and individuals with the .408 gun were shooting groups that would have stayed within the chest of a bad guy.  These were consistent, repeatable groups.  Not one or two shots every now and then.

The other material is the M40, which is the military grade material and is much harder.  The M40 bullet in the .338 Lapua is devestating and stays accurate after penetrating multiple inches of "clear armor".  Won't say I can't talk much about that, because off all the heat I get when I do that... what the hell, I'll do it anyway, "can't say much about that".  BUT I can tell the SOTIC guys all about the tests, who they were done with, and they can verify for themselves.  Barrels shot with M40 bullets will foul more, but again, accuracy doesn't suffer much.  When we test the M200 military rifle, we shoot the entire day through without cleaning the gun and still stay sub MOA easily to 2000+ yards.  

You don't have to believe me, I can provide email addresses of individuals that will verify this, writers, students, and owners of current M100 and M200 rifles.

I agree with MIke totally on his comments on the Savage, once you get one that works, it does work quite well.  We happen to have one that is exceptional.

As to the test,  I wrote a reply the other day to the board that vanished after I sent it, my beastly computer logged itself off and after I sent it, meaning it didn't go anywhere, the program F4ed itself into oblivion.  So I'll write it out again.

AS to the test:  AFter consulting with my 3 other partners on the test issue, here is our offer.  First, we will not pay expenses, BUT that's the company, if we get an investor that we are likely to get, I personally will pay the travel expenses of 2 individuals that this board will select, if it's CDC and Jaeger, fine.  Other people are fine too, but here are the parameters.

In discussion, we agreed that simply shooting (hang on I know what you're going to say), the projectiles, we'll go one step better.  The gist of the discussion on the board seems to have gravitated FROM the claims of high BCs to one of accuracy, which is fine, but more to the supposed outrageous claim that I shot sub MOA with a Savage 110 at 1000 yards.  Here's the plan.

1.  The 2 individuals that this boards selects will travel with or to Yuma Arizona on their own.  These two individuals will accompany CheyTac personnel to the Yuma Proving Ground test facility, gun position 20, to witness the 2 day test shoot of the LRBT projectiles in front of the Doppler radar, plus other projectile/cartidge combinations in everything from 5.56mm to .50 BMG.  They can examine the radar plots, talk with the technicians, etc.  This is on the 26th and 27th of June.  Dates are locked in, and cannot change.  This costs CheyTac several thousands of dollars and we are going out on a limb doing this.  (This has been done before, and in experience ususally you only get individauls to be quiet about the problem with the claims, you don't get supporters of the product, egg on the face thing maybe).

2.  I will be running an extreme range course in Idaho in July.  Dates are not yet set, this is the same format that I did in May.  These two individuals, or 2 other individuals can represent this board in attending this course free of charge for training.  I will provide a complete M200 .408 rifle system (gun, suppressor, night vision, laser, computer, etc) free of charge.  Additinally, I will allow these two individuals into the course free of charge.  You pay your own travel expenses to and from the shoot.  You would be free to write an evaluation of the course, gun, projectiles, whatever you wish.  You can bring your own gun, .338 Lapua and bigger.  We start shooting at 1000 yards and go from there, nothing closer than 1000 yards.

3.  IF you stay one day past the end of training, we can conduct the bullet comparison that you are talking about, BC claims, I'll shoot the Savage gun again at 1000 yards to prove the point.

Our time schedule is ver very tight and huge money is at stake in our project, we'll accept the bantering and childish behavior of some at this board and remain silent if this is unacceptable.

Let me know your terms, Rick, email me, let's talk.  We have a war to fight, let's remain professional and put some good gear to your test.  

2.  

Dean <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 14:10:44 (ZULU)

What load are you using.  It's likely that at 1000 yards, your bullet is either subsonic or transitioning from supersonic to subsonic.  IF that's what is going on, your results at the target are typical.  As Rick and others have seen, the M852 168 gr. military match round that was in use, is subsonic at around 900+ yards depending on the conditions and couldn't group at all at 1000 yds.  M118 Special Ball was better, though less accurate at 1000 yard shooting.  Less accurate meaning at shorter ranges, where both are supersonic.

You also have some spin drift to deal with at that range, ignoring that is worth about 1 MOA of wind alone.  Damn, did I say spin drift???

Dean <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 14:14:54 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
where the jet stream meets the sage. - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 14:18:07 (ZULU)

If you'l recall, the only scope to shoot craps at the Allegheny match was Kevins' Nightforce.

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 14:30:23 (ZULU)

Sounds like a great offer.  If you guys need to fill a slot let me know.  I can be an objective observer.  I'll be in the PRC for the rest of this month but should be back by July 1st.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 15:05:31 (ZULU)

I may be able to make the Yuma trip.  Let me check with the 1stSgt.

Out

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 15:12:38 (ZULU)

Great post Dean!

You just put up quite an offer. For those that don't know, the course he is talking about is not a cheap one. Offering it free along with use of the complete Chey-tac system is a big offer. I am looking forward to reading about this interesting testing!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 16:00:10 (ZULU)

I missed an opportunity to go to the last course Dean offered in May, but may be able to make this one depending on the dates.

If I can squeeze it in between the 2 other courses I'm going to in July, I will.  As Andy's dad said, it is a great offer, and I can be an objective observer.

shot over . . .

John <john@leveron.com>
Missouri, U.S. of A. - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 16:07:48 (ZULU)

The T-Mantel is the standard soft-point spitzer (does T stand for teif??).  We've talked a bit about RWS before off the roster, but its odd how you have found RWS to be variable from lot to lot when I have the exact opposite experience.  I have used RWS .270 ammo exclusivly since joining the FC and can honestly say I have never had to alter my zero when changing batches.  I wonder if the powder they are using in the 270 is more consistant than in the calibres you have tried? I have also found them to be very accurate.

I tried a few TUG in my 300.  I didn't shoot many as the jacket looked like steel or aluminium (that IS pronounced AL-U-MIN-EE-UM, thought you Yanks said you spoke English ;-)).  I was worried about the effect it may have on the barrel.  I bought them cheap; and they were cheap, £50 per hundred.  The brass alone was worth more than that.  I ended up pulling them just to use the brass.

That is one big nightmare of a beast.  We should have a few over here.  Keep the tourists away and make my job a bit more interesting.  Think I would like a bigger gun though.

Jon

Jon Beardsley <jon@sgreadan.fsnet.co.uk>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 16:34:45 (ZULU)

  Nha, that wasn't the problem, I push my 168s to 2800fps so they are still super sonic at 1000yds and they do shoot pretty well if I do my part. It was my inexperience with what "I" thought was a no wind condition and my first introduction to a "Fishtailing" wind. I have learned over the years there is no such thing as no wind at "longer" ranges as I am sure you well know since you shoot in the next zip code for your stuff.

  Your offer sounds interesting it would be a chance of a life time to be able to do something like that. I envy the two who get to do it. I will be very intrested in the results. Thanks for the reply.

Yote Bait..

  The 260 will shoot under MOA most of the time at 1000yds for me. Now I am talking 3 shot groups not 5 or 10. I practice using 3 shots that tells me all I need to know for what I want to do. I have shot 5 shot groups at 1000yds and most will stay close to MOA but if I have one out its usually left or right from wind. I don't honestly shoot 5 shot groups that much at longer ranges because I feel its just a waist of ammo. If I put 3 where they need to go its good enough for the girls I go with!!

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 16:39:24 (ZULU)

A number of people will express interest in being the representative for the Yuma shoot as well as the LR shoot.  Since we're covering some fo the costs, exposing some company information etc., we'll need to do the following:

1.  Individuals attending will need to sign a company non-disclosure agreement that specifically outlines what MAY NOT be talked about.  Methods and techniques will be shown to these individuals that may not be released.  They may certify only that they work.  In actuality, this isn't much stuff.  AS well, there are certain things at Yuma that cannot be discussed.

2.  I will require a resume of the proposed individuals experience as a shooter, instructor, ballistician, and any relevant knowledge and experience so that we know the individual is capable of doing the event.  This is fair, i'm sure you understand.  No offense intended to anyone that has responded.  We need a control measure.

3.  I need to personally interview, over the phone is fine, each prospective individual as well.

This is serious business, as i'm sure all here understand and I hope that you can appreciate that.

Take care,

Dean

Dean <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 17:01:58 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 20:33:50 (ZULU)

RE Fishtailing winds.  Ya gotta be EVER so mindful.  Was watching a good friend in the shoot-offs at Perry last year, wind twitched just about a second after he got off his spottin scope and I SO MUCH wanted to slap his head and tell him to get back in his scope.  But being the sportsman I am I suffered through watching him dump a 9 at 3:00.  When he got back to the scope, the wind was back to "normal" again.  Now the friend is pissed at his "lousy hold" and gets back on the rifle- just as the wind twitched again.  Another 9 at 3:00.  This time he saw it when he got back into his spotting scope.  A few rounds later the wind went back and he lost another point at 9:00.  Three points- he didn't win the shoot off.  He had won that match 2 years before.  

I guess that's why snipers have SPOTTERS that can stay on the scope and watch for that shix!

Have a good one fellas.

T

Caison <tjsarchett@ezol.com>
De, - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 20:35:54 (ZULU)

Mike in Texas

"Nice hobby gun for the kids I suppose."

Bahhhhh-haaaaaaaaa-haaaaaaaa-hoooooooooo-heeeeeeeeeeeee-heeeeeeeeee-heeeeeeeeeeeeee-haaaaaaaaaaaaa-haaaaaaaaaaaa.............please stop.  You're killing me.  pfffffffffffff...........

John Markwell

I wasn't aware that there was a scope failure at the ASC.  It was a Lightforce huh?  Well whadda ya know.  What happened to it anyway?

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 20:42:09 (ZULU)

It is time that you either keep to what you say on the Roster, accept those who take you up on the offer you made, without inventing more and more limitations and time-frames (remember "any time, anyplace"?) every time.  Funny that you want to limit who shoot your bullets in your tests, when, should they be available in the real world, those who choose to do so, whoever they are, would be able to?

Or alternatively it is time that you maybe go play somewhere else.  You contribute much, and the discussions brings more, but somewhere a line has to be drawn sometimes.

As far as me, or anybody else of the staff "organising" something like this.  Not this time.  You threw down the gauntlet on the Roster, open to all.  Though we are interested in the results, and insist in it being posted here, we are not going to "mediate".

My dad taught me that, once you've said something and committed yourself, that's it.  You stand or fall by it.  You don't hop around like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
- Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 20:59:46 (ZULU)

I feel that it's training and expierence and good equipment that's more important than the minute minutes of the angle of the dangle of whatever bullet loads used when it comes to shooting an aggressive, well armed and determined enemy.

Dean:  I was stationed at Ft.Bragg on "Smoke Bomb Hill" a long time ago.  When were you there?

Rambosky - Over...............

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Thursday, June 6, 2002, at 23:51:06 (ZULU)

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii tooooooooooooooooold youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

You owe me 5 cents (it's not worth more than that ;)

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 00:22:31 (ZULU)

Marius, how right you are! My father explained it the same way. After the second time, I learned "the hard way". But, honor is forever, and pain is temporary. Unfortunately though, youth is wasted on the young.

Pat, (and a warm welcome back) I surely understand your sentiments, the first time I shot at 1K, I did fairly well (after my sighters that is). The next time, I had a SLIGHT wind from the rear, directly at 6. At 1K, I was in the shrubbery on BOTH sides LOL. The only good side to it was that I didn't put a round in the neighboring targets and give them more advantage.

My chanting while shooting helps that too: "third from the left, third from the left - bang! - third from the left, third from the - bang!" HA! I did hit a really good 10 shot at 1K, but that was once, early in the morning.

Dean, the 26th and 27th are really bad for me. I'll have to pass on the Yuma trip. It would not be the first time I have been at the test facility either. It's not that I'm not WANTING to go, it's just that I have something going on right then that I'm not at liberty right this second to discuss. I'm not patronizing you, that's the honest truth. The Idaho trip might be good or bad, depending on the outcome of what's going on and the dates you choose. What a complete shame, from here, Yuma is not nearly as far as Idaho.

Great news there Joe! I've been in a "slightly similar" position, and was completely surprised by the support that rolled in from right here. Lurking has it's advantages LOL. Better folks out there? I doubt it. And don't down those butter bars (GRIN)

Rick, you slay me. And then you mess it up with the second shot! HA! But what do you know, other than you've got more been-there-done-that T-shirts in your closet than most folks have ever seen. Hope your lectures aren't as dry as mine were.

CDC, if it turns out that we both make the Idaho trip, you'll have to introduce me to the nickel beer. As for free love, I've determined that there is no such thing. But heck, if you gamble, you can get FREE beer. But that's not really free, is it.

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 01:11:54 (ZULU)

The Nightforce scope that laid down during the Allegheny shoot belonged to Kevin Hilhouse of Wilson Combat..It quit tracking about half way through sniper golf on day 2..He Finished the match with Rob Haughts' M40 with a Mk4-M3 on it..

Did you talk with Rod about the great hog hunt last month?? It was a real hoot..The adrenelin{sp?} meter pegged out!!

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
The Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 01:22:31 (ZULU)

Yeah......yeah.....I heard about the hog hunt.  You guys just plain have a lock on things.  The BEST place on earth (probably) to shoot, can shoot anytime you like and get to go on all these hunts and such.  Sheeeeeeeeeee.......itttttttttttttttttttt.  I'll bet that hog hunt was an adrenalin rush.  Down in SC stomping around in the scrub.  Yep................

That's a bad deal on the scope.  Was this scope on that .300 knock your teeth out he was shooting?  If so, I can certainly understand.  100 grains of powder...........none for me thanks!

You guys take care.  I'm going to hit the rack, buy before I go.  I want to leave you with one word....................SAVAGE

S/F

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 01:57:18 (ZULU)

M40A1 project is underway.  I bought the action now I just have to wait to get it in 10 days (f-ing PRC).  I also just ordered the Premier Leupold M3LR with the 2nd gen mil-dot.  I know the MK4 is tougher but I like the varible because I do some close in stuff and like the wider field of view with the lower powers.  I'm getting happy feet !!  

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, PRC, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 02:14:03 (ZULU)

Lets go with the "we are at war" bit.  OK we are and that is no more of an excuse for BS then it was in 68, 75, 78, 81, 85, oh hell pick a year.  BS gets good guys killed.  When a manufacturer has somehting good they send it to the Combat Developers for testing.  Hmmmm, just contacted them AGAIN, nope not there!  NEXT.

Dean, having bigger fish to fry is neat when you fry them after you have settled a statement of myth, ie 6 to 8 inch groups at 1000 being the NORM, not that he did it once or twice or thrice, it was the norm.  You have done the same in the past and a glance at the archieves will show this.

Now, you have stated repeatable groups at 1000 that is WAY sub minute, and groups at 2200 that is also WAY sub minute.  Just how do you read the wind at 2200?  Yes, wind moves bullets, sometimes alittle sometimes alot.  At 2200 the wind moves bullets ALOT.  Just what is the movement expected with 1 mph of wind.  I know that the lowly .308 will move about 10 to 13 inches, depending on the round, in 1 mph.  At 2200 I would figure that 1 mph would move the bullet about 1 moa minimum.  this would be a movement on the order of 22 inches(actually slightly larger, 23.034".  Now I will admit that your bullet may be the very best, but i need more data then the BS that I have heard so far.  I will be the first to welcome new data, bullets, weapons systems, optics, whatever, but I will never again spend for something that is not proven and is an overhyped piece of garbage.  Now, your stuff may be top dollar, just stop blowing smoke when you hype it because it reeks of snake oil.  Contact our combat developers and have them set up a test.  They are more then happy to do so.  I will set on this board and scream at the top of my lungs that i am a know nothing dweeb when you prove it on Fort Bragg.

Now, the lovely challenge of get you range time.  Hmmmm.  You have been here and know that we can not just crap range time.  We must request ahead of time and have perimeters set by combat development.  Oh yes, you know that don't you.  Good ploy bud.

Dean, please send me the email addreses with bio and why they are qualified to praise your weapon system.  I would love to talk to someone without a fish to fry in this matter.  

Ah hell, I have been anserwing as I have been reading.  Now you want sole discretion on who comes and observes.  I think that has been done alot in history.  Good go bud, keep working on it.

Oh yes, NEVER use the war card with me again, been there, done that, have the frigging t-shirt AND wounds.

WILL SEE YOU AT THE EXPO.  Oh yes, along with a couple of 1st groupers that are looking forward to a conversation with you.  :-)

Guys, I apoligize for this post.  I have posted here since the mid 90s.  I have a small amount of experience, and get a bit upset over claims of record groups being the norm.  I say record groups because until the late 80s early 90s 6 to 8 inch groups at 1000 were a record.  NOT THE NORM.  Yes, that was 10 years ago, but with bench rest guns NOT Savage 110s.

Will now have a tall cool glass of shut the hell up.  Good night.

Rick

PS, guys don't savage the Savage, it is a very good weapon.  So is the Marlin, the Kraag, the Rrrrugger, the 45-70.  However, 6 - 8 at a 1000? ;-)

Opps, glass dropped from hand!

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 02:15:01 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 02:17:20 (ZULU)

iarunncugar@yahoo.com

Khym Harris <iarunncugar@yahoo.com>
Bellingham, WA, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 03:15:05 (ZULU)

As I have stated before I do not shoot for a living/competition but I have to reply to Mike about "hobby gun for the kids"

I have a 110FP in 7MM mag. I zeroed the Luppie at 100 yards right out of the box(both gun and scope). Put a magnum pistol spining target (5 inch diameter circle) 400 yards out. It took 3 adjustments to hit the circle. Fired 2 more shots and got on the four wheeler to ride out to the target(I am not fortunate to have a spotting scope yet)to check my group. Well, there is a 1 inch diameter hole punched out of the center because of the softness of the metal from all 3 shots. Satisfied with my adjustments I went on to vaporize blackbirds from 300-500 yards.

I consider myself to be a beginner and I can only imagine what this gun could do in qualified hands with a spotter.

I cannot speak or make claims for 1000 yards yet and probably would have bought a different gun for that purpose,I know it is not the best gun by far but a hobby gun for the kids? Hope the brats in my neck of the woods dont take up this hobby. At a dollar a pop they better have a pretty good sized paper route not to mention a shoulder made of steel.

Lou

Lou V <XNYCowboy@aol.com>
The Zoo, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 03:39:09 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 04:28:46 (ZULU)

 I've been on this board a short time, but I once hung out with fantastic shooters who all looked up to Rick (and another guy named Tom).  Those two NCOs taught me more in a week at the Curry Range than I have learned in a lifetime of shooting.  Be careful about personal attacks, especially in this community.  I did the "Q" course in the mid-eighties...when did you go through?  You see, anyone can talk; but few actually try to walk.  To voice criticism, there is usually a price of admission.  I am not clear on how you paid that due.  If you are indeed looking for sales, you sir have a strange way of going about it.  To personally savage (hehe) prospective customers will spread your paycheck pretty thin...my .02 worth.

No fifty cal (yet?) but the steel makes a neat-o sound when hit.  Pow...Ting!  the half inch is a bit heavy, but the stock available only gets thicker from there.  Good thing I went with the 3/4 ton truck this year!  Gonna need it to haul this stuff home!  

Rick,

 You trained a guy named Jim "Mic" McAla.* (he had a lazy eye) quite a few years ago...and I caught a casualty report with that last name on it.  Fellow lost an arm in 'stan.  Wouldn't be the same?  Email me if it was...that guy is my boy's God father, and we lost touch two years back while he was in Europe...I want to close this loop, the wife and I are worried.

'Lito,

 I have cut and pasted more posts from you for reference than I care to count.  I look forward to many, many more!  

And finally:

How do I reach US Optics?  I did a search, but didn't hit anything.  Did I spell it wrong--like "U" or "S"?: )  I wanna compare them to nightforce before I unload my bank account on the next scope.  Anyone know the URL?  

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Eau Claire, WI, US of A - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 05:27:22 (ZULU)

We just got our pictures developed.  Damn!  That was a good time.  What beautiful country and great people!  Thanks you guys.

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 07:45:53 (ZULU)

Go here:

http://www.usoptics.com/

But if you order one, first get the catalogue, and read it carefully, then when you have decided what you want, ask them if you will get what you want...  it's like a chinese menu, you order the parts, and they put it together for you.

So decide what you want in PARTS, but also what you want in function... for example, you can order a 35mm main tube, and still wind up with only 50 moa of total elevation, if you order the wrong stuff... so if you need 100 moa of elevation, make sure that you get a written confirmation that your order will give you 100 moa of elevation.

A common complaint from users is the the mildots are WAaaay off... the answer to you if you complained is "Well that's because of the eyepiece YOU ordered the scope".  The glass is sharp, but there are far too many unhappy users around, for a scope that goes in the $2K+ price range.  My shooting partner (The Russian), had three, and sold them all.

The biggest problem at USO is that they take no responsibility for errors or problems... it's always somebody elses fault... not an attitude that I care for.

-

Does anyone have plans for a do it yourself Ark... still raining :((

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:27:37 (ZULU)

For whatever its worth, I am here in Nicaragua working with a guy who was a Contra for 6 years, 2 guys who were bodyguards for Ortega and myself who supported teh Contra effort from Honduras in the old days.

Everyone gets along great and we are all going out for beers today.

Who would have ever thought this in a thousand years!

Regards everyone.

jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Nicaragua - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:46:49 (ZULU)

You gotta lighten up some when you read the DR.

I never said Savage sucks........they don't. Much.

Without chewing up tons of bandwidth on a dead subject, the guns are good starter pieces until you get  something better.  

Proof of that is the fact that even Savage offers a target grade rifle called the BT at $850.00 retail, right with a POS....er......PSS. Savage people seem to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo in touch with their inner feelings.....geez  :))

(that was humor BTW)

Should tell you something when Savage has a "gun" line, and then an "accurate gun" line.  

The 10/110 series is a good foundation for learning with minimal investment, and is a great gun for  hunting, when you ding it/drop it and don't have to worry about damage.

I'm done.

Mike in Texas <mcdonald@hcn.hcnews.com>
Texas, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 13:11:01 (ZULU)

  Nope, won't try lying about bullets sent down range. I have sent to many down range and know pretty well how I stack up against some pretty damn good shooters and if you try BSing people someone will call you on it. (Esp. with this bunch!!) to many been there, done that guys and as Rick says they even have the T-Shirts!!

 I am with you also, I used to do the 5 shot thing at all the ranges and had some really good groups and some "Oh stit" ones but over all I was just wasting ammo and using up the barrel for no good reason other than ego or bragging rights and since I didn't seem to talk that much about the bad one's I figured I probably shouldn't brag that much about the good ones either.

 The only time I really do 5 or 10 shot groups now is for load development and crono tests. I find the 3 shot group will tell me my hold and wind call just fine. The one thing you will notice though (If you ever come to your sences and spend some of that moldy money) on a 6.5 is how much better you get at calling the wind(HA). You have to remember the 140s have nealry the the same BCs as the 190MKs and were not even talking VLDs yet.

lito'..

  Send some of that rain out here were hot and dry. They are already moving cattle and plowing up wheat, not a good deal. I think its going to be a hot windy summer this year.

Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 13:25:11 (ZULU)

I enjoy your posts tremendously, but I have to address the USO comments below. I also don't want to start a big USO thread, but I wanted to share my interactions being that they are first hand and not anecodotal.  Yes, their variables can cost over $2k, but the ST10 with an adjustable objective is the same price as a Leupold Mark 4 and is a substantially better scope. I have never had them not live up to a service issue, and if somebody has a service issue they need to let the company know and it would be resolved. I was aware that their old erector setup a couple of years ago was problamatic, but the new setup is pretty darned solid.

I actually have a couple of their scopes, along with a bunch of Leupold Mark 4s and Nightforce NSXs. My collection of shooting stuff is not quite as extensive as yours, but pretty darn close! I really do appreciste your comments, but my personal interaction with the company is quite different that what you might have heard about from a friend who knew a friend who read about somebody who had one.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 14:05:57 (ZULU)

I have seen problesm with all scopes.  One problem that has happened with US Optics is the guy can order anything he wants and that causes problems when they dont think things out.  For example you mentioned wrong milsapcings.  Well US Optics will put in a 10x Mil in a 17X scope if you ask so you get 2moa spacing not 3.6 moa.  Guy thinks thats a great idea and orders it that way.  His friend says you should have gotten true mil so he claims not his mistake (This is true story) and when US Optics says you ordered it that way we can not change it, he sells to someone without telling them.  They find out and have n idea it was ordered that way.  I would says they never put the wrong reticle in but recently someone screwed up and shipped a scope with a 17X reticle in a 10X scope.

You mentioned 50moa being all you get out of a 35mm tube.  Lets see since I have four US Optics scopes with 35mm tubes, I will answer this.  SN3 1.8-10x44, with 1/4moa clicks and lit reticle feature has 130moa, not 50moa.  My SN3 3.2-17x58, with lit reticle has over 110 moa.  My fixed 10x no lit reticle has 140moa.  Guys so you know the lit reticle feature will eat up some of the adjustment travel but all have more than the SxB with a 34mm tube.  Pablito you are wrong on 50moa being the total tarvel in any USO Optics scope.  Even my cheap little 30mm tube ST10's have over 110 moa travel.

As to parts you bet ya.  They have parts the best parts in the industry.  The biggest problem and one I have tried to get the owner to get away from is letting guys design thier own.  Few take the time to learn what they want and screw up on the order.  I say make some different versions and just stock them.

On the reticles.  My scopes all have correctly spaced mildots, except the one I ordered with the 2moa spacing.

Try and be fair on this.  You have extremely limited experience with US Optics Products and should not answer as if you are an authority.

I use them everyday.  So does a bunch of others that do this for a living.

This is not intended as a flame but lets face it when you wrote what you did you expected me to resond.

Mike Miller

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 14:06:12 (ZULU)

I don't have any plans for an ark, getting dryer and hotter her in California, but I did draw up a set of plans for a shooting bench out of a single 3/4" sheet of plywood a couple of weeks ago.  I wanted something for the back yard airgun fun and that I could take out for a little rodent control occasionally.  After looking around the internet and not seeing anything that fit my taste or pocketbook I decided to do it myself.  It didn't turn out to bad, might only make a slight modification if I ever build another.  Total cost was only $75 and that included a new saber saw, pack of blades, and the sheet of plywood.  Start to finish, including staining - which I already had, was 8 hr. doing all the cutting with the saber saw.

Don't know if I have the space or pocketbook for an ark project!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 14:18:46 (ZULU)

Is the SF Expo open to the public?  I would like to go and bring my wife.  Is it the 18th & 19th of June or July?  I can't make it in June but can in July.

In 1967, I was the SOIC (Security Officer In Charge) of all classified material and security clearances for the staff and students at the JFK Center for Special Warfare at Ft.Bragg when MG Edward M Flanagan was the commanding officer.

Sent to Nam for a year and when I came back I was the S3 for the 15th PSYOP BN on Smoke Bomb Hill.  If I remember correctly we did some training FTX's with SF.

I would like to vist my old stomping ground and also see the Expo.  Just let me know when and if an old soldier can get in.  

Old soldiers never die, we just sometimes feel that way.

Regards,

Rambosky - Over...............

Larry Surretsky <rambovn@aol.com>
Kings Mtn., NC, Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave! - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 14:20:39 (ZULU)

Let me know if that works

Mike Miller/Undude

Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 14:26:04 (ZULU)

I don't believe that you have had enough coffee this morning, or maybe to much, not sure.  I re-read Catshooters post on US Optics and I don't understand how you came away with your feelings about his ability to comment on the subject.

Someone asked how to get in touch with US Optics so he posted their web address.

I believe that he was trying to point out that for the $ you have to do your homework so that you get what you really want and not simply get what you actually ordered.  Mike, your own experience supported him on this point.  I don't have any personnal experience with US Optics but I believe that when he was talking about not getting enough adjustment that he was simply pointing out that if you order the wrong parts you may come up short.

Michael's point about the service quality at US Optics may be correct that they stand behind their work but I think that 'lito was making the point that if you order the wrong parts they (US Optics) are not going to absorb the cost of the new parts and labor to make it the way you wanted it when you order it wrong!

Just because I never owned a Model A roadster or '35 Ford with a rumble seat, but my friend did, doesn't mean that I can't comment on them if I was there turning the wrenches with him.

This isn't about sticking up for anyone on this site, because I believe we can all stand on our own, especially 'lito - not that he has strong opinions on certain subjects - just as a lot of us do.  But it is that we sometimes forget what this site was set up for - the FREE exchange of information so that we may learn more than we already know, lord knows I need the schooling!  Maybe it is me this moring reading more into your replies then what you meant to write, think I need another cup of coffee and I'll re-read everything again.

While I'm here, on the upcoming bullet test, has anyone considered that maybe these "new" bullets may actually be more accurate because of how they are constructed.  They don't have any problems with uniform jacket thickness because there is no jacket.  They shouldn't have any out of balance issues related to a core that has air pockets or bubbles because there is no core.  The only problem they have to over come is proper shape for additional length to maintain the same weight as conventional bullets, my guess is that they would be damn close to VLD's.  Solve any barrel fouling problem and figure a way to mass produce them at a more market friendly price and who knows!

Where's my COFFEE!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 15:06:26 (ZULU)

      You send us (Western Colorado) a decent amount of that rain and we'll build you an Ark, and haul it to Connecticut for you. My natural (horse) pasture never did green up this year, the price of hay is about to double, and the ranchers are liquidating their herds. Not only that, there's a county ban on ALL fires (including firepits in developed campgrounds), barbecue grills, fireworks, chainsaws, and smoking in specified areas!

     Please go on giving your opinion on whatever you feel like. I know that many here want to hear it. There's also plenty of room for opposing viewpoints on the DR too. IMHO, if a guy wants to have his personal opinion shoved back down his throat he can always join the military. That's one of the main reasons that I didn't re-up and gave up my not-so-promising career.

     Undude, please don't take the above as a personal attack, I sure don't mean it that way and highly value your opinions too. And I've never seen a USO scope up-close and personal so I, for one, have absolutely no opinion on USO at all!

P.S.   I never meant to rekindle this much of a sh**storm when I gave MY opinion on LRB to Jon. But it'll be interesting to see if there's a resolution to it!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, CO, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 15:44:40 (ZULU)

Good points about the intent of the Roster.  I read it every day and really enjoy the interaction, good bad or just entertaining, (Hey where is Bolt anyway?)  

I might have misunderstood what Pablito wrote. I just disagree with the comment that USO doesn't take responsibility for their errors or problems, they do, especially if you let them know about it!

If a user has a scope that didn't function right he should let the company know and get it fixed, rather than just complain about it.  I have found that when the layers are peeled back on these repeated stories and the specifics are examined that the primary "problem" was due to communication errors, (perhaps on both sides as well).

I like their stuff, I just want to make certain that they get a fair shake. Lito knows a tremendous about the shooting world and is a great resource to the board, and me as well, but many folks take what he says as gospel. (I think that this is the first time I posted a difference of opinion with him as well!)

The production of ST10 is a direct result of them listening to Mike Miller bitch about objectives that were to large(58mm)and scopes that cost to much, and what the tactical shooting community needs. Now with the 44mm objective and a very competitive price, it can go head to head with the Leupold Mark 4 and blow it away.

Off to work!

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 15:55:52 (ZULU)

We now, finally, carry a ghillie suit we can proudly offer by Tactical Concealment and Firearms.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Scott <powers1@voicenet.com>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 16:46:14 (ZULU)

The problem Paul is this.  You are in the optics business and have had a business relationship with other scope companies but not US Optics.  Since you are in the business you should be very careful of what you say. You need to make certain it comes out as opinion and not fact unless you have hard data to back it up.

You have made many comments about US Optics and this/today was probably the nicest thing you have said. Needless to say you are not pro US Optics.  I make slings (We all know that) I dont post on here or write how bad another sling company is, it would be wrong.  I have a vested interest in my slings selling so attacking another sling company would not only be wrong it would put me in a civil liablity position. Besides when the rules call for a leather sling in Service Rifle I use a Turner Sling.  I know the best leather sling when I see it.

Paul,when you say something I usually take it as what you believe to be fact, like the Milspacing to be way off in many cases comment. This came across as fact but this is not fact and is dead wrong!  The comment that you could only get 50moa adjustment in a 35mm tube is also dead wrong.  Once again fact is not fact. None of Mike S.'s or my scopes show any problem such as this. Now if you can show me a 35mm tube model with this problem I would love to see it.  Hell I would pay for the shipping.

Yes this is the free exchange of information but I formulate my opions based on my experiences not second hand.  If I dont know I will ask but I want the info first hand not second or third.

I wanted to know more about the US Optics company so I went down there and toured the company.  I saw how they are made.  I saw what parts come from where and who does what.  Hell I have been down there a half dozen times and always learn something. I have been  apin in thier butt making suggestions that they took and some that they said for me to stuff. No one is always correct or sees the big picture.

Now before anyone thinks "Mike Miller is on US Optics Payroll" think again.  I am not.  We have become friends over the years and we have joked about me going to work there but I am just a cop and sniper instructor.  I have given John Williams ideas and tested scopes for him like I have for other companies.  I have also acted as a go between him and some military groups, but if he screwed up I would be on him so fast it would make your head spin. I have not taken one dime from him or any scope company.  You will also notice I am currently testing the Horus scope.  Once again just testing no payroll

Now I am not an optical engineer but I know what works and what does not. US Optics works.  Is tough and clear

Contact them at 714-994-4901

Mike Miller

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 17:23:52 (ZULU)

I was up in the gym bathroom here at the PD, (sitting position, condition white) reading Ed Pococks Police Marksman article on updating a sniper rifle.  All a sudden, something bit the living hell outta my ass.    @*!damn !!!

I jumped up but didn't see nothin'.  I sat back down, leaned over and there was this little green grasshopper all proned out under the lid.  A wiggling antennae gave him up but I couldn't see enough of him to grab. So, I slapped all hell outta him and he went into the water.

I jumped up to confirm the kill and he comes flying out like the Green Goblin on Spiderman and lands unaffected, on the bathroom wall.

Gutsy little bastard.  I didn't have the heart to smush him after that.  Freakin' warrior bug.

Helluva thing to have happen on your 40th birthday.  

Hope it wasn't a sign.

Just thought I'd share that.

Watch your sixes,

Brian

brian k. sain <brianksain@yahoo.com>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 18:02:05 (ZULU)

Guys, a week and a day 'till the opener of the rather large grunnie pig season. i wonder if that ole boar knows he's on death row( or in death wallow so to say..)

Has any one heard from Marco?? tell him to contact me.. Marco i still haven't recieved the Euro passes you said you sent about 2 weeks ago, now either they got lost or you'll have had em back by now, if i don't get em off to the Brit police, you guys won't be going to SCotland (an i'll be stuck with a bill for a weeks hunting) because you won't have the nessecary documentation, and the damn ferry will be fully booked.. we need to get organised..

Wow, i think i hit the tabasco sauce and guiness a little too hard last night,( i smell too much to hunt today) and i was determined to get home intime to catch Band of Brothers on the box, damn, missed the first showing, but managed to catch the second at 02.00, luckily i set the video, cos i fell asleep during the first inspection and woke up with my damn glasses stuck in my ear about 4 hours later,,Night out with the lads tonight and i just know i'm gonna get drunk under the table by having to drink with some US servicemen again, its gonna be a hell of a night, but tommorow will be a hell of a long day.

Any more of you Hawgs headed Europe side any time soon?

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 18:22:39 (ZULU)

Pete

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 18:34:19 (ZULU)

Robert

Robert T <robert2@online.no>
Nooorrrwaaaay - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 18:43:38 (ZULU)

Undude?   Any thoughts or experiences with the Nikon or Ziess tactical scopes.  That 4x16 Nikon looks interesting for around $850.

Brian don't worry about a thing.  Once you hit 40 it's all downhill.  The bones snap crackel and pop more often and it takes longer for the pain to go away.   Just wait till you hit 50.  Happy Bday.

TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 18:56:48 (ZULU)

I can comment on USO scopes.  My knowledge is not from a guy, who knew a guy, that thought he knew a guy, that once thought he saw one... it is, first off... from my shooting partner that I see 3 to 4 times a month, and how I have done work on his sticks... he had 3, which means they lived with me for a good while.

And second, from Dr. John Williams... having spoken to him for a total of over 5 hours (with the intent of spending money, but each time I gave up).

And third, from a staunch diffender of USO, that in private told me that they have problems getting things out the door right. It is internal, and staff related, not equipment related.

And I never said that no one had good dealings with USO... just that the percentage of people that have had bad dealings is TOO high for a company that sells high end items like that.

And I didn't tell anyone not to purchase a USO, and to buy something else... just to be sure of what they are ordering, and be careful that they get what they order.

-

UnDude... you have taken all of what I said out of context, and re-phrased it... so I won't answer it.  You wanna talk about it, call me on the horn.

I will say this... I have nothing against their equipment, but only how they handle their problems, and their god awful catalogue, and the way John BS potential customers, and how many customers wind up with scopes that are not suited for them... I have NOT spent $6,500 with USO because of speaking to John, and his BS convincing me to pass.

-

Lemme say this, and get it clear for all of you guys.

I have never said that USO scopes were bad, poor, are any other negative thing.  Their optics are equal, or better than Lupita's... and they are machanically fairly sound... probably equal to MK4's and NightForce's... but because of their multi-piece construction, they may have weaknesses (but not necessarly).

I DO NOT think the Chinese menu approach to marketing is the way these things should be sold... there are compromises that have to be made in order to market this way, that I do not think are in the customer's best interest.  That being said...

My issues with USO are the Following.

John Williams should NEVER be let near a telephone.. he doesn't sell his scopes on their merit, he just puts down everyone elses scopes, and he will go on and on about it for an hour... this is the reason I didn't by two scopes from him.  His deliverys can be good if he has the parts in stock, but it can also really be awful, almost as bad as TBA... (well.. not THAT bad ;)

John will also NOT take responsibility for problems in the equipment... from time to time, batches of scopes have gone out with defective parts (which should have been caught at the the plant), and John has just blamed everyone else.  That no cuttie it... everything that comes out of USO's doors has his responsibility on it... If it's not good, there is nothing wrong with just saying "Send it back, I'll make it right", instead of a long story about some nameless supplier.

Their catalogue (which they sell you for $10, and comes off a from Xerox machine) is of poor quality, and confusing, and gives little information or photos on the individual items that would help you make a decision.  It has some very un-scientific statements in it... like rating their scopes in "lines per milimeter".

No one, and I mean "NO ONE" in the optical business rates visual instruments (telescopes and bins) in LPmm... they are ALL rated in arc-seconds.  A very high quality (cutting edge) 10x rifle scope should cut less than 5 arc-seconds (a B&L 10x TAC will, a MK4-M1 won't), a very good 20x scope should cut less than 3 arc-seconds... 100 lines per milimeter means absolutly nothing... it is a rating system for camera lenses, enlarging systems, coping machines, etc.

It is this poor, confusing catalogue that leads to most of USO's problems... people look at it like a Chinese restaurant menu... "lemme see, I'll take a 88mm objective, a 30mm tube, a 1/4moa elevation knob, a 3.5x17 eyepiece, and a Mildot, and a side of eggrolls... yeah, that sounds good!"... but (having been there), optics no workie that way.  So the customer gets what he ordered, but not what he wanted... now, some may blame the customer for it, but I don't... I don't think 1 in a thousand shooters know doodly Squat about these things.

The catalogue should have flat packages (this is what you get) of recomended stuff (they DO have more packages now, than when I got my catalogue and when I talked to John), and the person that takes your order (pray that it isn't John, or his son), should know enough about both shooting, and optics to quiry the customer and make sure that the customer is really going to get what they want.  These things ARE a lot of money.

If I could re-do his catalogue, and answer his phones for 10 months, I could turn his poor reputation around... and so could a lot of other people.

So that is what I have to say about USO... it is what I have always said, and will continue to say, until they change their act, and do better for the customers.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 19:55:27 (ZULU)

I took posession of the "Rock" today.

Damn is this thing sweet. With any luck I will be able to get the new stick to the range this month. Still need to lap in the scope.

Mr. Gardner E-mailed me his breakin procedure.

Will keep all'yall posted.

Stu.

Stuart S. Sattler <lazyandfat@aol.com>
Wa., USA - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 21:25:17 (ZULU)

couple a questions....

I've finally got an AR on the way courtesy of John Holliger and Rock River Arms, so I can start my meager endeavour into the world of Highpower shooting.  Now, I need some good 20round mags.  What makes to get (I know I want GI, but I don't know the maufactures), where do I find 'em, and if I decide to go the eBay route, what is a reasonable price to pay?  I do know that one should RUN not walk away from the USA brand mags.

AND to lighten things up a little bit....

What's on everybody's summer reading list.  I know I know, who woulda' thunk we cood reeed? :)))

Here's my list:

"Battleground" book IV of the series "The Corps" by W.E.B. Griffin

"The Mammoth Book of True War Stories" ed. Jon E. Lewis

"The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt" by Edmund Morris

"The Great Republic, A History of America" by Sir Winston Churchill

"Band of Brothers"  by Steven Ambrose

I tried to find some more of Roosevelts writings, but the store didn't have 'em and the clerk looked at me like I was some kind of idgit when I asked if they had any of his other works.  Speaking of his works, what are some of his better ones?

Later guys,

Rich

Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 21:39:37 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 22:43:13 (ZULU)

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Friday, June 7, 2002, at 23:02:03 (ZULU)

Whatever the stock material, and with the barrel floated or not, all of my Savages are accurate, surgical tools that can hold their own with any other rifle produced by the Winchester/Ruger/Remington/Browning crowd. A bold statement? They are bold rifles!

Sure, the rifles are affordable, but they're not "cheap." Savage Arms cuts corners on cost, not on quality or performance. If you want to save your money, buy the best Savage you can afford and put the money you save into quality optics, rings, and bases

I believe a majority of rifles from other manufacturers shoot quite nicely -- but so do Savages, too

Accuracy, thy name is Savage

The above was taken off this site directly "in Review" before I even signed up on the roster. I dont know who the author is but this is the advise I went by and Im happy I did. I could have afforded any rifle at the time I bought mine but went by the article any many like it. Really the way the gun shoots I dont think Ill ever have to get a "better" one. Of course their is "better" but isnt their always.

I didnt mean to sound like I had a stick up my ass, sorry if I did. Just a little sarcasm to keep things interesting. I appreciate ALL coments on the DR weather I agree or not, knowledge is power.

Lou

Lou V <XNYCowboy@aol.com>
The Zoo, - Friday, June 7, 2002, at 23:29:02 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 00:53:53 (ZULU)

SSSSSSSSSSSTOP  yOU SAV'AGE!

You totally SLAY me Dude!  Full mouth of Coke Classic sprayed on the monitor, and I'm still laughing :-)

Thanks for being here for the betterment of all............

1st Group eh? Now I WONDER what thats all about??????????????

(Insert evil laugh here)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 01:12:15 (ZULU)

  intersteing story on the 'asshopper'... the major and I are crying here from laughter. I think the handle 'grasshopper' would stick quite well with you right about now :)

SemperFi,

Ken

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Stormy, Northern, Va, U.S.A - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 02:02:45 (ZULU)

you might try getting black tea. You need to boil the tea first - then put whatever material you want to color in it.

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Stormy, Northern, Va, U.S.A - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 02:06:45 (ZULU)

Just thinking in print,

Joe S.  

Joe S. <spojoehpd@aol.com>
Dago, PRC, US of A - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 02:16:26 (ZULU)

Dennis Muldrew <dmuldrew@swbell.net>
USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 02:56:42 (ZULU)

Coloring burlap - You have to let the solution boil with the tea and coffee.  Use the natural burlap and then boil the tea.  Once it has started to boil, place the burlap into the solution.  Keep the mixture at a boil for 10 minutes so that the tannic acid will discolor the natural threads.  The tea or coffee must be strong, not a normal mixture.  The color will be lighter then artifcial, but natural, and when wet will darken slightly instead of the way that artifical color gets very dark.  Let the cloth dry thoughly for several days before messing with it.  I have several shades of coffee and tea on my ghillie suit.  It gives me something for the ants to eat when they are crawling on me in a hide position.  :-)

Joe Mohan - Send me an email at boucherr@soc.mil, with the full name and particulars.  the name does not ring a bell right now but then again I think that I am getting old-timers disease at times. :-) I will check into it for you.  I got home and did not check the DR until way too late to answer with any authority.  I do know that some of our students have been casualties, but they also kicked some fine a** to go with it.  I will try to get a contact address for you.

Well guys will try to be a kinder gentler old fart and live my life one with nature.  What was that lead on the....... opps!

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 03:08:43 (ZULU)

The AO for the wedding is outside a Scarlet Ohara looking mansion under a shitload of giant frigging oak trees that are lightning grounded. We held drills last night ahead of a thunderstorm until they got so wet that they figured it might be better to drill inside. I kept looking at the black clouds, looking at the lightning bearing down on the FFP, looking at the ground rods on them damn oak trees and wondering when these people were going to get the message!

Rosterferians with daughters, step daughters and girlfriend daughters beware, your time will come! Remember the following, it could save your life:

1. The safest answer to any question is "yes mam".

2. Do not ask any questions of female involved in the nuptual bliss.

3. You WILL be told what to do and where to be when the time comes.

But you know what guys? All of the above is cancelled out when the little girl that you met 13 years ago is now a fine young lady. You are standing arm in arm with her in the back of the room getting ready to practice walking. She looks at you with big brown eyes and holds tighter and tighter to your arm. At that moment there is a closeness that you can't explain. You know she is nervous and trying to hide it. You know you have to stand big and tall and not let her know that you are just as nervous as she is. Going to be a rough day for the Boltster tomorrow. I may be the worlds biggest asshole, but I have a giant softspot for my and Meatwoman's kids. One daughter down, two daughters and a son to go.

I am too worn out to post on the latest threads. You guys try to have a group hug until I can get back with the program Sunday.

A whooped Boltster on LOA until Sunday, Out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 04:32:40 (ZULU)

 The Catshooter wasn't putting down the US Optics scope--he was just cautioning me to be careful about cobbling together gee-whiz parts in my next scope!  Lito knows I have a few more dollars than sense, so he was just keeping me from being stoopid.  I could see it know--me with my brand-new optik, cussing a blue streak everytime I send a boolit over my ridge back-stop, all the while heal-stomping my MIL-DOT Master for my bad range estimates....

Lito,

 Thanks for the warning on the options' quandry...I will make my choice based on archived reviews and the fore-knowledge that I can easily get in over my head if I go with US Optics...

Hawgs,

 My pet grasshopper has slipped his leash again.  Watch out for a lean, green and mean as hell insect.  For petesakes, Hawgs--don't sit on him whatever you do---he is known to rip offenders' a new a-hole!!!  He answers to the name "Locustidae" or Luke for short.  And ever since our tour in the R.O.K., he has had a mad hankering for Moonpies...

Assbit by a grasshopper...now that was funny :>)  

Reading for summer:

Try the "Thirteenth Valley" by Delvechio.  Great read.  I was a PFC/ RTO for an S3 whose name defies spelling, but sounded like "FISEN-HYMER,"  (son of a legendary SF Colonel in SOG) when I read this one--so leave it on the shelf if RTOs don't do it for ya...no snipers lurking on these pages.  But a hell of a company level tactics book.

Joe

Joe Mahon <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Eau Claire, WI, US of A - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 04:58:40 (ZULU)

Please post here or send me some email if you have info or an opinion.

Thanks!

Khym Harris <iarunncugar@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 05:02:12 (ZULU)

Got an early present via UPS today. The Richard's Microfit Winchester Marksman style stock for my pre-64 Winchester .300 mag project! Barrel and action go together next week, then bedding and finishing the wood. This is gonna be a fun one! Brown/Brown laminate and 2 1/2" wide forend. Will reshape a bit. Cut to my LOP and has a 1" Decelerator Pad on it. Nice deal for $179.30 to my door and an 8 week wait...

This should take what little spare time I have around my work schedule and keeping the house pristine for sale...

Just back from work and have a couple days off. This law enforcement stuff is fun. Shoulda dun it before...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 05:42:41 (ZULU)

Bolt, It is nice to know that you are back in action! Good luck on the big upcoming day!

Joe, I understand your point, but unfortunately Lito was putting down the product and the company. I didn't agree and I wanted to write about my own recent interactions with the company.  I didn't want to start another USO thread, but when you get a scope from them it isn't "cobbled together." I am certain that you would end up with a great scope and you wouldn't "get in over your head"!

It is pretty tough to order the ST10 wrong. The Base scope lists for $895, and the only other common options are the adjustable objective, and the lit reticle. It comes with a standard Mildot reticle. That's it, no "shooting over the berm due to the wrong item selected."

I am not giving you grief about your post; I am just frustrated that Lito injected FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) into scope selection based upon his interactions with certain personalities, as well as  "having to many choices." His post negatively influences sales based upon marketing and not on scope functionality.

It seems as if they took his suggestion to offer common scope packages for both ease of selection as well as increased production efficiencies.

I would agree with him that the catalog does not look as slick as the new catalog from Blackhawk. I would also agree that there are a lot of options available. (When you order a Porsche you also have quite a number of options). The higher end USO scopes are geared towards the more knowledgeable shooter who usually does appreciate a certain amount of the a-la-cart flexibility.

All that being said, there are a lot of great products out there, just use what floats your boat and what will allow you to hit what you are aiming at.

I am obviously not an optics expert, just somebody that works hard and likes shooting with good stuff. I know that when I miss, it is due to me and not my rifle, optics, or ammo.

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 07:03:34 (ZULU)

>"I am just frustrated that Lito injected FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) into scope selection based upon his interactions with certain personalities, as well as  "having to many choices." His post negatively influences sales based upon marketing and not on scope functionality."<

Lookie guy... I don't give a rat's ass about USO's sales figures.  I don't work for them, I don't get freebees or loaners, and I'm not a pimp for them, like the recent LRBT fiasco... nor do I draw money from Leupold or any other group.  It is NOT my responsibility to boost sales of any company.  The reason that shooters come to this site is to get best info they can.  If a company has problems, like USO, Remington, Tasco, or any others, it should be brought out in the open, so shooters can make up their own mind.

Sniper Country has, in the past, been the sole driving force that has caused very large (and inflexible) companies to re-do product lines and correct mistakes... they read us and do listen.

And to suggest that we don't say anything negative about your scope company, because it might effect their sales, is not in the best interest of all the Rosterfairians.  And perhaps, if it does effect their sales, they might wake up and smell the coffee, and get their shit together.

Your comment... >"(When you order a Porsche you also have quite a number of options)."< is not relevant, and wrong... you cannot order a Porsche with the largest engine, and the smallest transmission, or any other combination that is not safe or functional... they won't sell it to you!  And if you order a combination that is not road worthy, you will be talked out of it by a very knowledgable sales tech, and told why your choice is not optimal.

And your next comment... >" The higher end USO scopes are geared towards the more knowledgeable shooter who usually does appreciate a certain amount of the a-la-cart flexibility."<... is also false.  These scopes are not aimed at a more knowledgable shooter... they are aimed at the shooter that has more to spend, regardless of their knowledge... there is no warning "These scopes are for more knowledgable shooters, who know about optics".  Nor is there any quiry from USO to make sure that you know what you have ordered, or that will tell you that what you have ordered is not the best combination of parts, and offer a better suggestion (like the people at Porsche WOULD!!).

If you want to be on a site where everyone brown noses USO, there are others out there that will make you feel good about your purchase.  This is not an invitation for you to leave SC... it is an invitation to also look at others that will give you that warm, fuzzy feeling about your scope.

-

Gettin' real tired of being taken out of context... is it a reading problem with some people... or is it that I can't write clearly.

Maybe I need writin' lessons... Naw, I'll just go shootin' instead.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 12:05:37 (ZULU)

Rich S. ive read all "The Corps" series, they are a damn good read, real entertaining, they should make a film of those books, WEB Griffin is an entertaining author, whats his other series, Men at War? Brother hood of war? starts of with " The Leutenants", goes on up through the ranks with each book, also a damn good read. 13th Valley is also a good book.

Scope wars, you guys will bitch about anything, hell just buy a Schmidt & Bender and there will be no more arguments, best you can buy, period.. ok i know they don't have a variable PMII with a 42 obj, but I am working on it.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 12:26:06 (ZULU)

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 13:36:42 (ZULU)

If we stop posting anything negative about anything here how would you feel if you turned over all your hard cash for something only to be stuck with something that didn't work up the the salesmans promises.  God I hope the firearms industry folks read this sight!  Quality control would go up at Remington, Ruger would install adjustible triggers, Savage would install or offer better stocks, Leupold would sell cams or turrets, you take your pick of correct terminology for um, in either yards or meters and they would be correctly marked, etc.

I for one want to hear the GOOD, BAD, and the UGLY and I,m not just referring to the sound track from Clint's movie.  I want to be as informed as I can.  I want to make my own decisions based on what I know.  I don't want to live somewhere where I only get spoon fed the party line or penalized for speaking out for what "I believe" right or wrong because it is my RIGHT!

Now both sides back to your corners and think about why we are here besides I got to finish getting ready to leave for a gun show in Costa Mesa today and don't want to be late!  Got to find that one more thing I don't have and may not need but got to buy it anyway!

Be thankful we do live in a country where we can speak our mind without fear of reprisal, most of the time anyway, and let's get back to our regularly scheduled programs!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 13:44:56 (ZULU)

2 days ago I emailed you offering to come to Yuma.  I sent you my resume.  Aint heard nuthin.  If MY resume aint good enough then no ones is.

I've got obligations to the State Trooper academy and need to know if this is a boni fide offer or bull.

OUT

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 14:48:40 (ZULU)

Believe it or not, alot of people don't have the opportunity to sit and monitor this site, respond to emails, etc. every minute of the living day.  We are tremendously busy right now.  

I was advised to drop this by a couple of the partners, but I won't do that.  

Gooch, I recieved your resume.  It takes a day or two for the other interested folks to look it over.  It's just fine, as I knew it would be.  You wouldn't have had to send a resume, just a contact is fine.  If you're available, you're one of the two.  The date at Yuma is 26,27 of June.  We'll get you in, you'll have to cover your own expenses as I said earlier.

The long range shoot in July is not date set yet.  Probably the middle of the month.  We are going to be at the Special Forces expo at Bragg 18 and 19 June.

CDC, take a breather my friend.  Sometimes you guys get so wound up, you don't have the patience to do a unbiased evaluation, it's clear in your writing on the board, "maybe this time, he'll actually do it"?  Guys, it's been a week since this started, some things justs don't get to happen in the time frame YOU think it should.

WEBMASTER, contact me, I Have permission from Lost River Ballistics to post a comparison of the 190 gr. J40 LRBT match bullet vs. the 190 gr. Sierra MK.  This is the radar plot data showing flight times, aspect angles, remaining velocities per 10 meters, xyz coordinates and drag co-efficients of these two projectiles.

The board is of course free to examine this data. It is independantly obtained in testing at the Yuma Proving Ground test facility, gun position 20.  Maybe this will settle some of the doubting thomas's around here.  Each table is from 0 to 3500 meters and is 6-7 pages long.

Please respect the fact that these results are proprietary information, and Warren Jensen is willing to release this for your viewing pleasure for free.  He has no requirement to do that, with some of the bickering that goes on here, I wouldn't do it myself.  I have some personal issues with one or two of the guys here, but some of you need to simply age mentally a bit.

Dean

GOOCH, email me, you're in.  I responded to your email, but it bounced back.

Have space for someone else, I have received only one resume to this point.  CDC, if you want in, put up.

Dean <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 15:06:21 (ZULU)

The original message was received at Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:04:44 -0500 (CDT)

from ri-5200-1-170.ecenet.com [216.251.170.170]

  ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----

<goochkw@riflemen.net>

   (reason: 553 5.3.0 Mail from 209.240.224.4 rejected;aspiringtech.net.Please contact mildot@erols.com)

  ----- Transcript of session follows -----

... while talking to mailhost.aspiringtech.net.:

>>> MAIL From:<trigger@ecenet.com>

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Dean <trigger@ecenet.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 15:08:17 (ZULU)

Don't forget about the match at Butner next weekend! Was going to unveil the Gardner upgraded Winnie but alas, don't have time to get a scope mounted and zero'd. Might just scope it, bore sight it and zero it during the match. As bad as I shoot, nobody would think that I was shooting any different than normal LOLLOL!

Lots of negative karma from the posts lately. Will be back to full participation tomorrow so you girls kiss and make up until I get back.

Kiss kiss, hug hug, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 15:25:23 (ZULU)

Public apology to Trigger and.......shameless use of roster.....

Practical Precision Rifle Match

Time/Place:  10:00 Swift Creek Gun Club, Autaugaville, Alabama.

Dates:  15 June, 6 July, 3 August, 5 October, 2 November, 7 December.  

Cost:  $20.00.

Awards:  Plaques for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place.

Course of fire:

Stage 1.  

Find Waldo  - 50 yards/Prone

Rounds required - 1

Target &#8211; Images with minor differences.

Shooters will be shown one of the images and will be required to find image on the target and shoot it.

Correct hit = 50 points

Incorrect hit = -10 points

Stage 2.

Know your limitations &#8211; 100 yards/Kneeling supported

Allowable supports are bipod/tripod/sling/post in ground.

Rounds required &#8211; 5 max

Target &#8211; 3 moa dot, 2 moa dot, 1.5 moa dot, 1 moa dot, .5 moa dot.

Shooters may engage all or none of the dots.  

3 moa hit = 5 points

2 moa hit = 10 points

1.5 moa hit = 15 points

1 moa hit = 20 points

.5 moa hit = 25 points

miss = 0 points for stage

Stage 3.

200 yard slow/Prone

Rounds required - 10

Target &#8211; 2, 5.5&#8221; inch shoot&#8217;n see&#8217;s

5 rounds on each shoot&#8217;n see in 10 minutes.

Stage 4

200 yard pair/Standing to prone

Rounds required &#8211; 2

Target &#8211; 2, 3&#8221; shoot&#8217;n see&#8217;s

On command of fire, assume position engage both targets with one round in 10 seconds.

Hit equals 25 points/target.

Stage 5

300 yard timed/Prone

Rounds required &#8211; 10

Target &#8211; 5.5&#8221; shoot&#8217;n see on NRA SA pistol target

10 rounds in 5 minutes

Point of contact:  Kent Gooch,  (334) 358-3711/0509.

Out here.

Gooch <goochkw@goochtraining.com>
Click on my name to visit www.goochtraining.com - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 15:49:19 (ZULU)

Lou

Lou V <XNYCowboy@aol.com>
The Zoo, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 16:28:27 (ZULU)

Brian, thanks for bringing a good laugh when I needed it. Reminds me of the time I ate something bad before going into the woods and had to release myself quickly.  Caught a Rabbit by surprize that just frooze until I cut loose. Than he exited stage right a different color. I had no idea he was there before.

BILL and all I  AM NOT LAPD or LASO SWAT.  This must be the tenth time I have had to say this and have no idea where this started. I am an old broken down Sergeant in the Bay Area and still have the Beat LA Motto in my head.

Litto, now we disagree on many things but not all.

I think if you went to work for USO you would do them good.  John Sr. is my friend and should spend his time designing new scopes not talking on the phones. He can talk rifles, balistics and anything shooting with the best of them.  He has built scopes, rifles and just about anything shooting related his whole life.  He knows a bunch and is a fine smith also. I also think too many options just make things cost more and confuse folks frankly who just want to shoot and not spend the time I have learning about scopes.  Joh and I have talked about this and he will probably expnad the line to include several stocked items so no wait on most of the basic models. Not everyones mental illness is as deep as mine or yours.  I have been pushing for US Optics to do several things and they are going that route. Here are a few of the things I have helped on:

ST 10 better than any MK4 and retail is 895.00 for non adjustable objective and 1095.00 for adjustable

SN3 3.2-17x44.  This one I begged for. They made it with the 58 and are now offering it with the 44mm.  Its the best high power varible I have used

The new 1/2moa per click 45moa per turn knobs.  These rock and I love them

Putting M40A1 BDC on the ST10 and SN3 1.8-10x44.  I love these adjustments and its what lead to the 1/2moa per click 45moa per turn knob.

Now this is what I have helped on in the last few years.  Some of you must have great ideas about whats needed.  Bring them to me and I will talk with John about improvements.  Try that with the other companies.

The have a huge list of scopes in stock right now so anyone wanting a great scope contact USO at 714-994-4902.

By the way the only way I would be considered a brown nose kind of guy is if I shoved someones head so far up the arse it came out the other side and we had unintentional contact.  You know s... happens

Tony, dude you and Trigger are the ones that sent me to USO four years ago when I was pissed at Leupold. Thanks

On the Nikon scopes.  They met with me at the Shot Show and made lots of promises to send for evaluation but nothing ever came of it.  On the Zeiss Tacticals.  Now that was a story but thye never came through either.

While we are on it.  Been messing with the Horus and found some things I like and some I dont.  It has lead my pee brain to other reticle ideas

Trigger/Dean, I have one of my Duaghters B-Day party that week in June so cant make it.  Gooch's word is good enough for me anyway.  A good second is CDC.  He is a good long range shooter and he can keep up with most anyone you find in math.  If he cant make it work you need to dig up Einstein.

Gooch you get the slings yet?

Undude/Mike

Mike MIller <Tactical@Tacticalintervention.com>
CA, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 16:42:06 (ZULU)

Bolt,

You're going to have to RELAX!!!! Take a big deep breath and and a looooong pull on that Mason Jar (I mean you are in the South aren't you)? Remember, its only one line...(Pastor)"Who gives this woman to be married?"...(Bolster)"Her Winnie...I mean uh er Mother and I do." See how easy that is? I truly feel your anxiety (well not really) but from another point of view....I had ALL boys. HEHEHE. Weddings are much cheaper with boys. <G>

Byron,

Ditto brother. I want to hear it all, GOOD, BAD and UGLY. I feel like I've advanced in my understanding of LR shooting in equipment, knowledege, terminology, training shools, matches and match dates all due to whats posted on this site along with the lurkers who've taken the time to pass along some invaluable information. NOW....it's up to ME to "glean" from that information and make my own decisions all based on what I feel like is pretty solid information from some very experienced "Marksmen and Experts." If I had to depend on any other method of information in tactical LR shooting, I would've still been WAY behind the learning curve.

Remember:

When the Continentals came together to draft the Constitution, these weren't a group of "good ole boys" who were trying to be sensitive to each others feelings. It was hair flying, fist fighting, name calling, free-for-all, but in the end we have what we now call "The Constitution of the United States of America." Let freedom ring and enjoy the First Amendment...and I think I'll go enjoy the Second Amendment this afternoon.

Mark W (Jalapeno)

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Llano Estacado, TEXAS, U.S. of A. - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 16:59:32 (ZULU)

Since we are discussing optics, I need clarification on something.  Say you have 2 scopes,

1) 6x42, 1" tube

2) 6x60 35mm tube (These are just used to illustrate the point)

Assume also that these scopes have the exact same number of lens and the light transmission per lens is exactly the same.  Lens quality is the same, etc.  For this question, assume EVERYTHING is the same between these 2 scopes with the exception of the size.

Scope #1 gives an exit pupil (7mm), which in my understanding is the maximum dilation of the human eye.  Scope #2 gives an exit pupil of 10mm.

Question:  Given the above, will one scope give better image quality/brightness than the other?

The reason for the question is that periodically I read somewhere that scope X with its 34mm (just an example) tube and 75mm objective "transfers" more light to the eye giving a brighter, sharper image.  This doesn't make sense to me.  It seems to me that if the human eye can only absorb 7mm of light, then it doesn't matter how much actually comes through the scope beyond 7mm.  Now let me reiterate that in the above example, ALL things are EQUAL with the exception of what I outlined.

Am I missing something here?

Congrats Bolt.  See you next weekend.  I'll buy you a beer or 6.

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 17:07:50 (ZULU)

I think that you have some great points and ideas, I hope that some of them get adopted, we would all be better off.

The medium of the internet prevents the normal intonations and nuances of discussion that would go along with this interaction. I suspect that if we were sittting down having a beer and bs-ing we would both recognize that we are on the same page. I want a scope that has great optics, repeatable adjustments and is solid as hell. I also want the scope company to support my purchase and fix it for free or nearly free if it breaks.

I don't have a dispute with you at all, nor am I inviting you to leave the site either.  We would probably be better off if your comments were directed towards the issues and not childish comments about questionable reading skills or perceptions of brown nosing.

You are better than that, and I don't deserve to be treated that way. I simply disagreed with your perspective.

I welcome fact based dialogue, we will all benefit from that.  

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 17:29:20 (ZULU)

 I ordered a catalouge from US Optics.  I could only find the SN-series listed; but no ST-10 scope.  No SN-10 for that matter.  I haven't decided one way or the other on who will make my next optic, and I am in no hurry to part with this kind of money without as much data as possible...so I am still gathering intel between various makers.  10 Bucks for the fine print seemed reasonable enough.  I must agree with Lito though, the ability to order up thread pitch for internal adjustments, objectives the size of a frisbee and maintubes as large as some objectives...well, it is a bit daunting for me; my physics classes were taken in 82 and 83. I really wouldn't have given a second thought to optical magnification changing a given set-up for internals!!! Forewarned, I will do the math on what I think would work for me before I order anything...and US Optics is just one of many scope makers under consideration.  BTW- I am looking for a well made variable for this particular riffle...something that gives me 20x or so on top.  Give Lito his due for taking care of a newbie, OK?  HE DID NOT talk me out of a purchase, he did however, give me a "heads-up" on customizing options WITHOUT doing some research/and math!!!  At least, that was how I read it...and it was my question he provided answers for.  

Lito,

 Keep shootin...yer writing was loud and clear, and hey--it was (is) my money being spent!!!  I am the one who needed to understand what you were saying....

Pete L.,

S&B is on my list, but haven't liked their reticles that I have seen on other folks' hunting rigs (Post-type)...and I have no knowledge (yet) on their Mil-Dots or even if they offer those options for variables...still comparing, one maker at a time.    

I absolutely enjoy the spirit of discussion around here.  I haven't seen so many Type-A personalities in one place since the change of command ceremony at JFK!  When you all aren't intimidating me with advanced physics at the graduate level---you guys can be entertaining as hell.  Hell, don't "lighten-up"--it just wouldn't be fun if everybody all played nice.

Joe

PS- Nicole's "good" blood counts are up even higher than last week!  She is doing extremely well!    

Joe <joseph.mahon@usarec.army.mil>
Eau Claire, WI, US of A - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 17:43:55 (ZULU)

Trigger:  My resume is, I can do the math.  I've graded and tutored mathematicians and scientists who were working on their PhDs in exactly this, and collaborated on the solutions manual to one of the standard experimental design textbooks.  References available on request.  

My long range credentials are NOTHING like Gooch's, (or Dave's, or Rick's, or...) but Mike S and Mike Miller saw me shoot.  Ask them if I'll be a fish out of water.

Unless you insist on doing it, I have no interest in the 1,000 yard group numbers mentioned.  I want to see the BC stuff.  That's worth checking out.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 17:44:34 (ZULU)

I'm going deer hunting in 45 mins, i'll get an hour or so before dark to have a little stalk about,  see whats about in the woods.

Pete.

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 18:15:40 (ZULU)

Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
SJ, CA, USA - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 19:10:15 (ZULU)

>"Question:  Given the above, will one scope give better image quality/brightness than the other?"<

No... they will both look exactly the same.

>"that scope X with its 34mm (just an example) tube and 75mm objective "transfers" more light to the eye giving a brighter, sharper image."<

Not true... This poopie with light transmission is a sales tool, and nothing more.

Some basics...

Light is measured "logrithmatically", (not linearly) which means if you have $1000 and you loose 10%, you will sure notice it, but if you have 1000 units of light, and loose 10% you can't tell at all, and you can loose %50 percent, and it will seem just a tiny bit darker.

So whether it has 94% or 96% is silly... but people (being linear thinkers) think that little 2% is worth another $150 on the price of a scope.

It is not the transmission that is important, it is the inner reflection (flair) that is the MOST important factor... it determines how dark the black things are (aka SHADOWS)... especially for us.  It's in the shadows where our targets are hiding, and flair will make them blend into the "gray".

Given an enemy sniper in the bush, and two counter snipers on the other side of the field, the counter sniper with the least flair will live, the one with more flair will die.

-

Michael...

>"We would probably be better off if your comments were directed towards the issues and not childish comments about questionable reading skills or perceptions of brown nosing."<

I was stating FACTS when I answered a question... I said to make sure that he understands what he is ording, and that the staff at USO is not good at support on the phone, or otherwise, and that the catalogue is very poor and confusing... and several people have taken my comments out of context, and "tried" to make a case for what I said... and I didn't say it!!

You piped in and got upset about the "company" loosing sales and a lot of warm fuzzy stuff, (like you worked for them)... that is what brought my responce.  You were talking like a company hack.  No one on this site should be worried about a companies sales, if it means we have to hide problems that will effect the end user.

Because you own it, doesn't mean you have defend the name of the company... if they are wrong, then they are WRONG.

Keep in mind that I have been VERY rough on Remington over the last 4 or 5 years... and I own MORE Remingtons, than I own Winchesters... and I own a lotta Winchesters.

From 1964, until the early 80's, Winchester was the toilet of American gun makers... they got smart (and better) because people talked about the problems, and people wouldn't buy their stuff...

I have tough on USO, but I have been even tougher on Leupold, and have hammered them for years.

I'd love to stick to the facts when applicably, and part of the facts are that many USO customers wind up with scopes that they didn't think they ordered, that didn't match their requirements, and are unhappy with, and the company has a poor reputation in solving problems.

Also part of the facts are that Leupold has been poor in solving the cam problem, inspite of haveing the data for 3 years now... so it's all over the industry (and other industrys also), and if we don't talk about it, it ain't ginna get fixed.

Mike (UnDude) is pretty tight with John W... if Mike says "Hey John, this is what guys are saying about you, and your scopes!", maybe John will listen... if we don't say it (both about the produck AND the company and their attitude), it ain't EVER NEVER gonna get better...

... and that's a fact, Jack!!

There is only one tactical internal adjustment scope that I will defend to the wall without reservations and it ain't no Leupold... they made one run of about 600 or so, sold about 100 a year, and couldn't justify another production run, so they are gone.  Those that know me, know what it is, and that's all I'm gonna say about it!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 21:05:09 (ZULU)

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 21:18:17 (ZULU)

"Alright Lito, now your gonna have to tell us what that scope is.  I wont sleep until I know :).  Making the a decision on a scope has always been harder than deciding on the rifle.  Maybe its because the scope has always cost more?"

OOoohhh oooohhh I know - I know... pick me pick me......

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
dry and cool, Northern, Va, U.S.A - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 21:32:30 (ZULU)

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 21:37:07 (ZULU)

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 21:54:54 (ZULU)

  Your up, what is it?

Scott Chapman <schapman@myrealbox.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 21:55:18 (ZULU)

Michael: seems from the archives, you and CDC both know something about some beer too....... now what was that brand again?

CDC, you might not find anything of interest in the 1000 yard shooting with the Sav, but, well, I would personally like to see it. Granted, I'm more interested in the BC's, but still I'd find a routine 7" group at 1K with a Sav in 308 to be quite the trick. As for sending in my resume, well, I didn't think I was going to need a job interview to apply for "anytime-anywhere", and haven't needed one for a LONG time now. Still, I suppose that it would be a small cost in time to get the kind of education that we will.

Joe, tell the Little Princess we're all rooting for her here. She seems to be a fighter, that's a bonus for everyone.

Mark, my friend, you're a hoot. If I weren't drinking out of a Mason jar right now, I'd swear you did that just to make me laugh. And you might want to steer clear of the Constitution, Bill Rogers will have a field day with that one! Oh, go ahead, I enjoy reading his posts.

Khym Harris, you're barking up a hard tree. I've been down that road, and it wasn't worth it in the long run. Here's my short and easy. There really is no easy way to get it. If you drill and tap on the receiver, then have a gunsmith fabricate you a mount, you'll wish you hadn't. If you get the no-gunsmith mounts, you won't be happy with them after a while. Now did I make your day? Essentially, in the end, there's only one solution, and I doubt you'll like it very much. My advice is to enjoy the BM59 for exactly what it is, a great self-loader built for warfare. Trying to scope it will make you crazy and not happy in the end (but much poorer). Now, if you make the lateral transfer, you can do it quickly and easily, and still have your same basic rifle. Told you that you wouldn't like it though. Where do you find mags for that beast? Oh, and aluminium (please say it as it's spelled for those who read this from England) mounts will have you saying things you wouldn't want to be overheard saying. I've only heard of one aluminium scope mount that worked well - the one in a million I suppose, "Those that know me, know what it is, and that's all I'm gonna say about it!".

Bolt, best of luck to you. I had that honor (except she wasn't a stepdaughter) a few years ago. Quite the enjoyable time!

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 22:08:04 (ZULU)

I recently purchased an ST10 from USoptics, I was confused at first with all of the options in their catalog.  It wasn't until I got my scope that I realized how nice it was to custom build your own scope.  My scope is exactly the way I wanted it and has everything I ordered.  I even had USoptics send the scope to Robar to have it camoflauged in Woodland before they assembled the scope.  My cousin also ordered the same setup without the camo and we both got exactly what we wanted.  

Undude is right the new 1/2 moa knob with 50 moa per rotation kicks a$$

Things that would improve USoptics greatly (most important being first)

1. Get a salesperson who knows a lot about shooting and how scopes work. (John SR. is an engineer and definitely doesn't have any customer service skills)

2. Make standard features for each scope model for simplicity.

3. It would be nice if they could reduce the price on their variable scopes somehow.

Nicholas Young <ynicholas1@qwest.net>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 22:08:23 (ZULU)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002260304,00.html

Related story:

http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/

The price of Freedom isn't cheap or easy. May our resolve against all anti-gun sentiment never diminish.

Jaeger,

>>>Mark, my friend, you're a hoot. If I weren't drinking out of a Mason jar right now, I'd swear you did that just to make me laugh. And you might want to steer clear of the Constitution, Bill Rogers will have a field day with that one! Oh, go ahead, I enjoy reading his posts.<<<<<<<

I think we all need a refresher course on who we are as Americans and how we got here. The above links to the related stories should be a reminder of what happens when citizens sit idly by and watch their rights diminish in the name of (false) security.

Mark W (Jalapeno)

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Anybody want to sell their B&L 10X Tactical? Don't tell Lito :), TEXAS, U.S. of A. - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 22:25:13 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 22:31:37 (ZULU)

Jaeger <Jaegerspotter@yahoo.com>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 22:45:34 (ZULU)

<brogers@elkhart.com >
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 22:52:45 (ZULU)

>>>The Judge rules,"Defense counsel you are correct and your point is noted, therefore there is only one fair verdict! Hang em Both!<<<

There's another story that involved an Irisman and Chinaman (really). Both were workers out of Langry Tx. and both working on a railroad tunnel. There were perhaps hundreds of the Irish and Orientals working on same project and it was no secret that there were constant clashes among the different cultures. It was a well known fact that Roy Bean ran the saloon there in Langtry and the Irish were good customers. One day an Irishman killed one of the Chinese in a disagreemnet. Of course there was an outcry among the Orientals for justice. The case went before Judge Roy Beans court.

Roy Bean searched and searched his law book and finally ruled that there was no law against an Irishman killing an Oriental. Case closed and the bar's open.

And that's the way it was out here in the West.

Mark W (Jalapeno)

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Anybody want to sell their B&L 10X Tactical? Don't tell Lito :), TEXAS, U.S. of A. - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 23:09:57 (ZULU)

Made it to Scotland in one piece, good trip.  Long trip.  But, I'll make with details later, gotta go watch my Detroit Red Wings on Sky TV, just thought I'd give a holler when I was set up.

Tennent's aint too shabby

later folks, you Euro's know where to send your rebarrels now, ya hear!!

JR

JR <jr_rcsd@hotmail.com>
Riccarrton Farm, Newcastleton, Scotland - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 23:12:58 (ZULU)

Bill, Jaeger and whoever:  Of course I'd like to see someone try to back up a claim like that.  But I'm not going to demand to see that before I learn if this BC stuff is right.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
- Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 23:17:39 (ZULU)

I've ALWAYS been ugly.  I was young for a long time, and just got old lately.

It's 'yote Bate's fault, entirely!

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 23:35:12 (ZULU)

Dale Weiss <dweissmtnman@aol.com>
Bethlehem, pa, usa - Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 23:55:35 (ZULU)

A highpower 1000yd target has a 44" AIMING BLACK.   The X ring is 10", or MOA, and the 10 ring is 20", or 2 MOA.   The reason the target gets bigger with distance is that we are using iron sights.

By the way, take your sniper rifle to a Palma or 1000yd NRA match and see what place you come in.

Tim <Rokchukrslave@aol.com>
Portland, OR, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 00:05:43 (ZULU)

The "X" ring of the 1000 yard target is not 48 inches...

The "X" ring is 10"

The 10 ring is 20"

The 9 ring is 30"

The 8 ring is 44"

The 7 ring is 60"

The 6 area is 72"x72" square.

There is nothing that is 12 feet.  The 10 ring can be hit with regularity using iron sights with no magnification, by a fairly decent shooter.

It is easy for a shooter to see a 10" white target in a field (though a bit difficult to hit)

It is fairly easy to hit a 20" white target if the wind is down or steady, and you are dialed in.

The crazy limeys shoot at 2400 mtrs with iron sights and hit targets that are 12 feet across.

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 00:24:18 (ZULU)

Direction to the range: Take I-24 to exit 117. Turn toward the AFB and travel about 8.5 miles to a brown sign that says "Arnold Rifle Range". The next street on the right, past the sign, is B-5. Turn right onto B-5 and travel 1 mile to the range complex. IF the range flag is up but the gate is locked, drive about 300m past the gate to the second gate behind the 600 yard line.

Registration starts at 12pm and firing will commence once registration is completed. The price to shoot is $10, but there will be no prizes awarded. Due to AF restrictions, no 50 cals please. (though I'd love to try one at a grand, maybe I could hit sopmething)

Hope to see some of ya there. If you have any questions, I can be reached by email until about 10PM CST.

'lito,

I here Bushnell is making one JUST like your fav-o-rite scope for only $200 ;))))  Wonder how many rounds it would survive on top of the 50?

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
147gr FMJ!!!! 13,987,098 dead guys can't be wrong ;)), - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 00:45:22 (ZULU)

The only thing about the Bushnell that is like the B&L 10x TAC, is the knobs.

Guys that have seen the Bushnells say that at $200, they are WAY over priced...

-

'lito

CatShooter <condor@mags.net>
Spring has sprung, the creek has riz... I wonder where dem kitties is?, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 01:05:47 (ZULU)

Any of you Hawgs been to the 600 yard egg shoot in Memphis that MSSA puts on?  I see a couple familiar names on my "The Firing Line" mailer this month.  Sounds like fun, but it's a Loooong way to drive for one shot! ;))

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
147gr FMJ!!!! 13,987,098 dead guys can't be wrong ;)), - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 01:10:52 (ZULU)

AMU and the USMC Sniper School had quite a contest going.  Don't remember which team won, though.  Impressive shooting by both teams!  Would not care to have anyone of either team shooting at me - at any range!

The guy I borrowed the rifle from was about 6'6" tall, and the rifle was built to fit him.  As I returned it, I chided him for not telling me that it was a crew-served weapon.  He asked what I meant - I said, "You know. One guy to load, aim and fire, one guy to lay down under the rifle to prop up that damn long barrel!"

Is anyone here going to the .50 cal match at Whittington over the 4th of July weekend?

Mike

BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
- Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 02:12:46 (ZULU)

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 02:18:46 (ZULU)

Lito, I have my 1K shoot tomorrow gunna try out the 155's and Hodgdon H4895 load. I havent a clue what the velocity is or if it will print a good group. I'm betting they will print. Tyson will be there too. Oh, I'm begining to relfect on my tests thus far with the 155's and not wanting to bring up Twist war II. Lito may be right about a 1-10 for 155's not so much as the ability to stabilize them but it is more to do with getting the desired speed from them with our favorite powder. I may be a closet twist wennie before long.

Dale, If there is no Russian gun powder then how do they make them AK's go bang?  ;)

Anyone interested in a partailly gun broke German shorthaired pointer, let me know. A guy in know has two in New Mexico for sale. Not cheap though.

Bolt, My advise is drink heavily. Or at least a little quailty. Time slows and nerves clam.

Dirty Steve, Out

Steve Dickerson <ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 04:13:10 (ZULU)

thanks

Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
- Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 04:28:58 (ZULU)

     I've found only one problem with the scope in question.

     You have more of them than I do!

Sarge,

     A couple of months ago I posted a very informal opinion piece on the Bushnell that you're doing the T&E on. The one that I checked out was a production model, so my conclusions are no doubt a bit defferent than yours. That's what makes the world go 'round. But my final judgement on this scope is that without the mil-dot's, and without the nice B&L Tac knobs, it feels like a typical Bushnell $79.95 deer rifle scope - optics included. I guess where we really differ is on the topic of a 'starter' scope. I guess it's OK for someone who is just getting into Tactical shooting, but what happens when that newbie decides to attend his first big Match, takes off from work for a week, travels across the country only to find his scope is TU on the firing line? I believe that 'lito mentioned something like this aways back. IMHO, it doesn't even belong on a Savage (HA! Paul C.) just kidding, I know that you shoot yours very well. I am not, and never have been a military or LE sniper, and with over forty rifles I certainly can't say that all of them wear the hi-dollar optics, but every rifle that I own that I can call Tactical is fitted with Mk4, LRM3, or the 'mystery  scope'. In the final analysis, a 'sniper' or 'tactical' rifle is built to serve but one purpose. We non-professionals use them to compete at Sniper Competitions, Long Range Matches, and just plain foolin' around at load development and UKD shooting. Speaking for myself only, I want my Tac rifles to be as ready and accurate as the best LE call-out rifles are, and as rock-hard and long range capable as the best of the SO guys. I fully realize that others on the roster don't make that kind of investment or commitment, and I respect them and their reasons for being here. Bottom line - there's room for all!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 04:33:46 (ZULU)

And, OK, I'm asking too much to expect a tack driver but I think I

can squeeze more accuracy out of it if I move along a step at a time to make this happen.

For me, a scope is getting to be a necessity.  Shooting isn't like boxing where I can get by with throwing punches at the pink bits.  I need a bit more target definition than that.

And finally, four mags came with this rifle, still wearing their

waxpaper wrappers.  It was just too much of a heavenly deal to pass

up.

Khym Harris <iarunncugar@yahoo.com>
- Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 04:34:11 (ZULU)

The egg shoot at MSSA in Memphis IS fun, although that 1.5" circle is real difficult to hit with a CBS. The mirage on the range has been almost unbelievable. It's sort of like looking through a fish tank while somebody swirls the water.

Anyway, tomorrow (Sunday) we're having another one after the long range match and the pot is at $205. Might be worth the drive. You can shoot more than one time, you just have to let your bbl cool and put up another $5 for the shot. Like they say on The Price is Right, 'come on down".

jc

jc <jcopelan@midsouth.rr.com>
Cordova, TN, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 05:10:03 (ZULU)

Boy are we having some great "discussions" here of late!

I love it!! :-)

Sarge

Sarge <sarge@snipercountry.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 07:31:44 (ZULU)

I've got the schedule through Aug, and when I can get a non HP match weekend, I'm gonna come west and TRY take ya'lls money ;))

Hope to see ya on the range.

FatBoy...

Chris <sweepman@tds.net>
147gr FMJ!!!! 13,987,098 dead guys can't be wrong ;)), - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 11:06:56 (ZULU)

I didn't know you had one of those. You wanna sell yours - I'm trying to have one for each day of the week - LOL ....

:)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
dry and cool, Northern, Va, U.S.A - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 11:59:39 (ZULU)

Nuff said for a while on wedding bliss. Back to shooting, fishing, scratching myself, picking boogers, farting, girls jumping on trampolines and real guy stuff.

For those that have been wondering.........

Depending on how far back you place Loopy 4.5-14x50 with 30mm tube, it will clear the barrel using Badger standard height rings and a Badger 20moa base.

Butner next weekend, Bolt out!

Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 13:35:29 (ZULU)

Model 32-1040M

Magnification 10x40

Special Features  Target Turrets and Mil-Dot Reticle

Objective Lens Dia. 40mm

Field of View @100 yds. 11 ft.

Eye Relief (in.) 3.5

EXIT PUPIL (mm) 4.0

Wt. (oz) 15.5

Length (in.) 11.7

Click Value @ 100 yds. .25 in.

Adjust. Range @100 yds 100 in.

Based on the Adjustment Range figure for 100 yards I ran some numbers using Sierra Infinity Software.  If you mount the scope in a tapered base or use Burris Signature Z rings with the off-set bushings where you might be able to get all but about 2 inches of elevation left at the bottom you might be able to get to 800 yards with it.  Why wouldn't they do it in their 4200 line of scopes and use a 30mm tube and have parallax adjustment if they are trying to build a Tactical Scope?  Answer - they are not because it is simply labeled as a hunting scope.  In their words "GREAT FOR Shotguns (Deer & Turkeys)".  If I were looking at it from a marketing standpoint I would say they are trying to develop some additional cross-over sales to tactical shooters who like fixed power scopes with mil-dot reticles for their hunting rifles.

Years ago I bought one of their B&L Elite 4000 6-24x40 for a .22-250 and have never regretted it.  In fact recently I picked up a newer 4200 6-24x40 under the Bushnell label and time will tell if it performs as well.

Crazy thing about scopes, they can make them to withstand the abuse from the largest magnums but not many can stand the abuse from a magnum airgun!

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 14:30:35 (ZULU)

Thanks for the scope information.  That is exactly what I thought.  I have had this conversation and had this conversation and presented my logic and was looked at like I had 4 heads or something.  Glad to know I was right (doesn't happen often).

Anyone have experience with Talbot mounts?  I am looking for a mount for the Steyr SSG and Talbot is the only company that makes a base (that I can find anyway).  Have located some Steyr factory 30mm rings (thanks P.), but just wanting info on Talbot.  Going to set the Steyr up for F-Class and give it to my dad.  I've had this rifle since August '96 and to date it has less than 300 rounds through it.  Someone might as well shoot it.

Alan,

I'm with you....................banter is extra fun!!!!!

Semper Fi

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Reston, VA, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 14:56:03 (ZULU)

Byron......now I'm confused (normal condition). Just looked in the 2002 Bushnell catalog, and nowhere could I find "Great for shotguns, Deer and Turkey" listed for their 32-1040M scope! Strange! I agree with you about their other products, especially in the past. After all one of our icons is labeled Elite 4000..... 40-1040 right on the box!

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 15:34:14 (ZULU)

http://www.bushnell.com/productinfo/riflescopes/specs/321040m.html

This is off the web site. If you go to this link of specs at the very bottom----------- "Great for shotguns ( deer and turkey)"

I looked at the Bushnell line VERY hard and this is really the thing that had me wondering if it would have the range I needed. Even the 4200 line says "Deer and Turkey" on most scopes specs page, even the 8-32.  Methinks the web page designer is costing them some $$$$ unless they are marketing every scope for deer and turkey.

Lou

Lou V <XNYCowboy@aol.com>
The Zoo, - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 16:15:17 (ZULU)

thanks

new email rdfrench@netscope.net

Robert French <rdftdf@inetone.net>
- Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 16:34:29 (ZULU)

at the gun show this weekend I picked up a pair of Valdada 10X40 military range finding retical binoculars.

Does anyone else have a set of these? How do you like them? Any problems that you have experienced with it?

Thanks, Stu.

Stuart S. Sattler <lazyandfat@aol.com>
Wa., USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 19:52:54 (ZULU)

Guys, I've been working on the CBS in my M40A1 and it's making me nuts.  The details would take up too much bandwidth here but if anybody has any tips I'd appreciate it.  Bottom line is my CBS can land anywhere within an inch or so of my POA on any give day and the group follows.....help?

out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 20:24:40 (ZULU)

JR welcome to this side of the pond, if you read this in time give P.Carr a ring, he is in your part of the world tommorow looking at some land that we may be taking the hunting tenancy on, maybe you 2 could catch up with each other. I'll be up there as soon as i can,let me know when you had enough of the tennents beer and fancy some German stuff.

You Yanks and your cheap scopes, deer and turkey etc, ive learned the hard way that i won't hunt deer with a scope that i wouldn't trust in a battle field situation, game animals are all magnificent creatures and deserve to be hunted with the best optics, not just shot at with elcheapo brand x turkey scope, it seems back to front to me, Id shoot holes in paper with any scope that would hold a zero, cos its only paper, but when the target is a living thing, regardless of wether it shoots back or not, I want the best optics i can get. If that means waiting untill I can afford them, Then I wait, buying a cheaper piece of shit just so i can get started is a frustrating way to waste money. If I only had X amount of $ to spend, Id buy the best scope i could, some Badger rings, and an elcheapo rifle, some kind of weaver base and id go practice with it, and when i could afford it, id get a better rifle. each to his own i suppose.

Went a bit late to the woods last night, place was bloody full of walkers any way, so i sacked it and went home to watch Band Of Brothers, next part is on TV next thursday, i just have to remember to watch it or tape it, good film so far. I must be going soft, i set the alarm for 04.00 but couldn't be bothered to get up,save my energy for the start of the season of hunting Large pigs next weekend.

Pete L

Peter Lincoln <Peter.Lincoln@esa.int>
D - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 22:38:59 (ZULU)

               I'm certainly no gun-plumber but I'd suspect a bedding problem, if I read your post right! I ASSume that your groups are satisfactory and that you aren't getting un-called flyers?

Lou..... I suspect that Bushnells' web-site designers may be having trouble translating from the original Japanese?

ALAN

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, CO, USA - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 23:36:01 (ZULU)

I've just purhased a Leica LRF1200 laser rangefinder from Euro Optics LTD...$400 plus shipping. Haven't seen a better price than that anywhere. The owner also carries a line of Schmidt and Bender, Swarovski, Leica, and Zeiss optics. The owner not only honors the manufacturer warranty, but has a warranty of his own:

"All items are direct imports from Europe.  They include the manufacturer’s warranty and are all new in the box. I also provide an additional warranty.  If any item that I sell has a defect in material or workmanship, I will replace it free of charge for the first year.  If I do not have one immediately in stock, you have the option of using a similar item free of charge during the repair period. I maintain serial number records of all products sold.  I will absolutely provide service after the sale and guarantee your satisfaction."

Sounds good to me.

The owner doesn't have a website so you have to contact Alex @ panfish12@hotmail.com and he'll send you a pricelist.

Mark W (Jalapeno)

Mark W <sharps45@msn.com>
Anybody want to sell their B&L 10X Tactical?, TEXAS, U.S. of A. - Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 23:52:16 (ZULU)

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