June 2000
Grunt: what's the difference? A M1A with a GI synthetic, no scope is right about 8 pounds alone. Scope it and it goes over 10 in a heartbeat. Not that I'm downing scoped M1A's ;-) Used to hunt with a Sedgley, shuuuure would shoot for an old rifle, but at over 10 pounds, made a heck of a mountain gun. Now I hunt with a custom Krag (I DID NOT have the work done, bought it that way!!!) carbine. MUCH lighter, and less accurate!
Griffin: isn't that what we're here for? HA! Feels like a Grateful Dead song.
Guys going to Mike's class: just tried the "fresh from the keg" lager.
If you take Heineken, make the hops taste SLIGHTLY different (I use Kalafornia
grown hops), and up the alcohol content, you've got this one. Heck, I'm
feeling it NOW! Great brew. Come by the tent and get 'ya some! Get there
fast though, I'm packing gear first, beer second, and I'm taking an Escort
HA!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
is that Jimmy Buffet singing "what a long strange trip it's been?",
USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 00:00:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.231)
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, In, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 00:38:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.39)
Grunt - if you like the m24 system - then train yourself to carry it. Weight is relative to your ability to handle it. You and alot of others will laugh your asses off when you see my 'towed .308' as my wife calls it. It's heavy as hell - but ssssshhhhouuuulllld be pretty steady if can get my wife's husband to do his part...
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 01:55:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
Stagger - I don't have anywhere near the background that Gooch or Rick has - but I will tell you what I have experienced. I came from the pistol shooting world - and there - as with any shooting - the same effect is true. With that smaller dot - even with iron sites - you will focus 'more better'.
I'll say this one the best way that I know how - so feel free to chime in gang.... You tend to NOT notice that slight drifting of your sites or scope crosspoint - when aiming @ large dots.
If you make that dot or square much smaller - man your 'brain housing group' will do it's dead level best to keep those sites on that tiny dot - since it's a smaller area -and thus it's easier to discern that slight drift - while your brain housing group is going through all those other items in that checklist (breath, relax, aim, stop, sq...)
This has worked on every shooter that I have ever worked with...
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 02:06:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
If you are in the North Orange County/Inland Empire area, the Stockade is pretty good just off of Beach and Westminster in the city of Westminster. Just around the corner on Beach is Xcaliber, and they have probably the best selection of reloading supplies in this area. Arm USA on State College just off the 91 freeway in Fullerton has a pretty good selection of tactical type gear and they are US Optics dealers. They are a little bit on the pricey side and they guy will talk your ear off to let you know how much he knows, but they are pretty good folks.
West End Gun Club has both public and private ranges at the entrance to Lytle Creek canyon about a mile off the 15 freeway at Sierra below Cajon Pass. Public ranges are limited to 25,50,& 100 yard rifle pistol. Members have access to ranges out to 600 yards. They run different types of competition every Saturday and Sunday, and unfortunately the 600 yard range shoots over most of the private ranges, so it's closed most weekends. Contact me & I can give you better instructions if you are interested in getting there. We do a 600 yard shoot the 2nd Sunday of every month, and all matches are open to the public. I generally go out close to Barstow to do any shooting over 600 yards.
Pat T
P Tidwell <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Ca, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 02:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.27.111.5)
Iron Sights and position shooting - Need to use them in practice becuase when you need them you won't have time to think, dam, wished I had practiced them. Another point is that when you learn and practice those pesky basics, the fun stuff is alot easier. We use the first week of our course shooting those pesky iron sights and sling positions. they teach and drill in the basics and it is fun watching students shoot standing offhand for the first time. Why standing offhand, becasue if a student has a slight flinch or jerk problem we will find it right away and clear it up. Forces trigger (and mind) control or you just don't hit the target. Bill is right in that you always seek and use the most stable postion possible, that does not change the barrel harmonics, and use that position. However, there are times when that just is not possible. There are LEA that will work the rural areas. In tall grass they may have to fire rapidly without setup. Bipods and all that other "stuff" may not work and then you are stuck with the sling. Pete the 10 meter air gun practice in standing off hand is good for beer bets. Use both iron sights and get a Beeman air gun scope for even more fun of seeing that dam wobble and controling the urge to jerk the crap out of the trigger.
Best quit for now, have fun guys. This is definately too long of a post again. Sorry guys I'll try to exercise mouth control next time.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 03:28:56 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.201.54)
Grunt: It might make you feel better about the M-24's weight to know that the the current M40-A3 is even heavier. An instructor from Quantico recently told me that they top out at 16-17 pounds. Whew! My right arm is almost twice as long as my left the way it is. Seriously, if you are game hunting, a good sling goes a long way by the end of the day. If you're masochistic and want to carry (conceal) the weapon at your side all day, then I suggest a hand or wrist sling. We fashion ours from a piece of black nylon M-16 sling and a spare QD swivel. Imagine a weight lifter's bar strap with a swivel on it. The loop goes around the back of your hand and wrist to support the weight. This way your hand doesn't have to grip the fore-end or the rifle sling all the time. A little slow to get out of; I woundn't recommend it when you're actively stalking game. Try it.
Everyone: I had recently asked for feedback on Universal Trackers.
My mistake. It's Universal Tracking Services ran by Joel Hardin (former
Border Patrol). Has anyone from the LE or military community attended his
course. Seaux, if you're lurking, your biased opinion doesn't count. I
would like some review before passing proposals up the chain. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 07:29:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 198.106.196.16)
If you're laughing so hard that you wet your pants while reading
this I am not responsible for doing your laundry but I would like an answer
PLEASE...AARRRRRRRGGGGGGG
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, TX, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 21:10:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.196.111.186)
You guys have both got it backwards. You want the bullets to be asleep, not awake! A alarm clock would spoil everything for sure.
Getting your bullets to go to sleep is mostly a matter of choosing the correct twist barrel for the bullets you are using, but if you want to go the extra mile, try singing to them.
Keep in mind that some brands of bullets like certain songs better than others. Sierra Matchkings show favorable results with "Somewhere over the Rainbow" sung in a low octave, while the Hornady A-Max seems to prefer "Swing low, Sweet Chariot"
Be careful when trying this. Try to concentrate on the tone and rythym and do not inject too much feeling into the words. ( I once made a whole shooting stool full of Matchkings cry during the 82 National Matches and damn near rusted my barrel shut.)
I have only used these techniques in competition, NOT COMBAT!
IF I were forced to use a song in a life or death struggle, I would fall back on the song that I wrote for Donna Summer a few years ago.
I can't tell you the title. It's Classified.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., killing them softly in the buckeye state, USA - Thursday,
June 01, 2000 at 22:21:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.146)
I'm partial to
Steve Dzupin <Dzuppi@aol.com>
Wayne , NJ, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 23:09:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.197.199)
Steve: congratulations. I was amused.
Bill Rogers: Nope, no more 5th either. Heard of the tattletail boxes
in the new Fords and GM's? Dunno if Chrysler has 'em or not. Seems now
your car can (AND WILL!) testify against you in a court of law.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Rights? You wanted God given right with that citizenship?, USA - Thursday,
June 01, 2000 at 23:13:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.251)
Many thanks, in advance, for your time and thoughts.
James
James P. Bliss <j.bliss@netcom.co.uk>
USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 23:23:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
194.73.160.175)
Thanks for the heads up on the errors in the book. I plan to obtain other resources on the finer points to "compare notes" and make sure I get it right anyway. BTW, is there an error in the mil-dot info in the book as mentioned in a later post by another roster member?
Learning to use mil-dot range estimation is one of my biggest goals. If there is indeed misinformation in the mil-dot info in this book could you recommend another book or resource for *REALLY* learning the mil-dot method?
Also, thanks to all who have offered your assistance through e-mail.
You don't know how much I appreciate it. :-)
Jawja Boy <nd4speed@mindspring.com>
Podunk, Georgia, USA - Thursday, June 01, 2000 at 23:48:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.86.78.153)
GI Joe. Leica bad, Swarovski good. Used both.
Grunt. Weight of M24/any other heavy barrel rifle.. 16 pounds or whatever aint heavy...its manly. Just takes getting used to.
Been out of the country. What happened to certificate man?
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 00:27:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.148)
B.R.A.S.S.- It is funny how many different words come up for this
acronym. I went to boot in '89 and then it was "Breath, Relax, Aim, STOP(as
in breathing), Squeeze. Guess it depends on your PMI or is it a East Coast/Hollywood
Marine thing?
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 01:19:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.201)
What I need is info on other sniper units in other NATO countries. I need to know if our sniper units ever train with other NATO sniper units and roughly what percentage of each use McMillan rifles. I also need any info on other NATO countries that have already decided or are considering the use of .338 Lapua as an intermediate range sniper rifle.
Any and ALL info will be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Scott Gammons (please e-mail me your responses as well as post them
here)
William Scott Gammons <gr8scott@advi.net>
Mount Airy, North Carolina, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 01:40:37
(ZULU) (your host address: 192.154.47.29)
SEMPER FI!!
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalifornicateya, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 03:06:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.221.169)
MCRD Parris Island. Qualled with M16-A1, August 1978
(B)reath (R)elax (A)im (S)top (S)queeze.....
Plt 3040
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 03:12:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
James - depends on the .300 Win Mag, just like any other rifle. Some are exceptional, some just plain suck. Don't let anyone convince you that the .300 is "intrinsically" inaccurate. It's won an awful lot of 1000 yard matches.
Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Ca, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 03:18:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.28.182.130)
Al Gardner <agardner@gtelco.net>
mayfield, utah, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 03:59:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.197.25.93)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:14:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:14:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:14:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:14:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:14:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:14:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Good Lord! A fellow summer-schooler, eh? Good to know I'm not suffering alone. :)
The First Rule of writing college papers and putting together in-class presentations, especialy those that have to be turned around ASAP: write about stuff you know you can document in advance. Dont pick out a coolio subject mater that is close to your heart and then tear your hair out trying to figure out how to dig up the documentation for it. You get ulcers that way. The best source for McMillan information would have to be McMillan themselves, and given the fact that Gale passed away within the last week, I dont think the normaly helpful folks at McMillan can be counted on to do much for you in this case. Beyond that, I dont forsee you finding much on the tactical boltgun market in Baron's, Forbes or the WSJ. Dont beat your head against the wall. Do one on Catepillar or Johnson and Johnson or Disney, stuff you can get hard data on from widley recognised publications. I was fortunate one time and got a brief presentation out of the rise and fall of the British motorcycle industry, putting it foreward as a cautionary tale about what *could* have happened to the US auto industry if they had failed to aquire a clue in the '80s. But most everything else has been about boring, name-brand companies and hum-drum business sectors. Hell, do GE. Its hard to go wrong with General Electric. :)
-Tom
1st-Year Graduate Student-MAT-Business Education
University of South Carolina
and I didnt make it this far by looking for trouble-enough finds me as it is. :)
Oh, and while I'm here...
BIPOD POINT-OF-IMPACT SHIFTS - MAN, Y'ALL WERENT LYING! :)
After esablishing a pretty good baseline reference on how well the
700PSS From Hell
Any Ideas on wether or not this might hold true at longer ranges?
How do I account for this in my record keeping?
Thanks;
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 04:45:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
P.S. It IS generational and weapon oriented. (B.R.A.S.S., that is...).
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 07:24:59
(ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.179)
James
James P Bliss <j.bliss@netcom.co.uk>
USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 07:27:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
194.73.160.190)
*** The truth is sometimes irrelevant. ***
Assuming you aren't writing a paper that is by deffinition factual (i.e. Chronology of the Boer War, The physics of surface tension, etc.), then there is no reason to assume that the important thing in the presentation is the content. I've saw so many people beat themselves up in collage over minute points of content that were going to be presented to a yawning class and a teacher who wouldn't know Lapua from Lap Dancing.
Believe me, the important thing in something like this is HOW you present yourself and whether your documentation, if any, supports your position, NOT whether the presentation could be simultainiously presented at the Whitehouse as fact. Nobody in this class is going to be investing in McMillian based on what is presented, nor will Professor Cloister be calling the French Ministry of Defence to verify that they are upgrading to an American-made sniper rifle.
Obviously, you were given this assignment in order to demonstrate
your skill in some International Marketing technique. All you need to do
is demonstrate, by hook or by crook, that skill. It doesn't actually have
to be 100% TRUE! Besides, the sooner you learn about bending the truth,
the sooner you will truely fit in the Marketing field.
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 12:36:15 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
Bruce R., I agree on the 300 Win not being a beginners gun. Too much recoil. I do not agree with you have to relaod to get good groups as a whole. If you have a custom gun or a Sendero with a new chamber cut, you can have it made for the rounds you plan to shoot. My NorCal 300 shoots sub 1/2moa all day with factory 190's. My Sendero with a new chamber shoots about 3/4moa with the same ammo, but wont hold after about eight rounds. The problem with any factory 300 Win, is they cut the chamber for the biggest round around. That is the Win 220 grain bill board shaped thing. That leaves a long chamber and no luck for groups with any non handloaded ammo. When you get a custom chamber you can have the head space set on the shoulder and the groups will get smaller. I know it will cost you for the chamber being cut but that will be quickly off set by the cheaper ammo cost of 300 Win over the hard to get 300 Ultra. If you do hand load the 300 becomes even cheaper to shoot than the 300 Ultra.
Anyone starting this long range/sniper thing, just get a 308 Winchester and learn to shoot.
Gooch good to see you back
Pete, I dont rust in the rain. My screws and bolts are made of the finest melted down Ginsu Knives available.
Someone asked me at the range why I had a 50 BMG. I said because a 20mm is a destructive device and I can not own one in Calif.
Bye for a few weeks you fellow bunch of Polictically Incorrect types.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 17:01:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.193.58)
UnDude run them ragged at the NM class. Stress is good.... Maybe next year I'll have enough vacation time to make it out West. Sound familiar ??
Take care and have fun..
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 17:42:56 (ZULU) (your host
address: 32.97.88.100)
I need some non-shooting advice from any of you with Web experience. I want to get the PX up and running in short order but the hold up has been setting up a shopping cart. I am a compudummy. If you have any thoughts on these carts or on how to get around with out them drop me a line asap. In the mean time, if you just HAVE to have something, email me privately and I will set you up. HS, Eagle Industries (the entire line!), Pro-line, IOR, and others are on board.
To Marty: Welcome to my world dude. If you got to be accused of bullshit that has no basis in reality, at least you're in good company! Your Pariah T-shirt is on the way! Hope to see you more often this year. I miss the rest of the crew but you know what they say: FIDO!!!!
PeteR you old WVA goat! You got another chance at Summit Point. I should be there the 10th. Look for the corner worker with the kid. Should be an easier target since I won't be busting past on the bike at 130mph! You didn't factoring in a full county lead last time!!!
Grunt. If you want to hunt with an H-bar bolt gun, just get a VS and cut the tube down to 18 or 20 inches. (or rebarrel a 700ADL or BDL) Then, if you can, sell the stock and get the LTR stock from HS Precision. The PST51. Done this way you will have a really handy deer rifle with excellent accuracy and balance. For realistic hunting you hardly need a 24" or 26" M24 weight rifle. You want something that settles well but isn't a bitch to hump all day. An LTR sized rifle is perfect. And you can built it as easily as buy it nowadays. Anyway, even the LTR can hit at ranges you sholdn't be hunting at, so the short barreled hunting rigs are not so bad after all.
For the guy (grunt,wasthatyou?) wondering about an M21 or Bolt gun...go bolt unless you can invest a lot of hard cash. For the amount you'd have to put into a totally reliable M14 varient, you could have an awesome bolt set up with TITS level glass, which will more than suffice for anything you will face as a civi in the field. It'll also weigh less and work with out worry. Better investment for the same amount of cash. (not dissing the M21 guys! Just sayin' you can get excellent results for a LOT less in a bolt gun).
Lastly, and too close for the weekend...what is the load carrying
capacity of a sparrow...and how much lead do you need? ;-)
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 18:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.34)
There is not much I have seen on the comments of the winchester 70
, how are these rifles, I plan on getting the .223 Stealth Heavy Varmint
rifle. and comments , drop me an e-mail please, thanks :)
I figure if its good enough for Carlos Hathcock ..... :)
Sk8r Steve <sk8r@burbclave.net>
USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 18:42:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
153.39.222.62)
I am looking for a cast bullet sizer, I am looking at either the
Lyman or the RCBS one. The sizing dies and punches are interchangable,
yet I need to know which is the best of the two.
I want to cut my shooting costs down by casting for my pistols,
and a few rifles. I know there are some out in SC who are more into guns
than just the tactical aspects. Thanks in advance.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 20:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.77.71.169)
A while back there was talk about live fire training in the mil or lack of it. Well here's a story. My friends, neighbors son is home on leave right from Navy boot camp. He said they had a rudementery M16 course that he attended. When asked what he thought of the M16 his reply was "I don't know, I never shot it! They used a laser device to simulate shots". I should have asked him if he had DI standing behind him shouting "BANG". Seems as though the EPA has condemed the shooting range at the Great Lakes training facility due to lead contamination and will not allow any more live fire practice. Duhhh, gee who'd a guessed there would be lead there!!
Bravo..so you thought you'd be spared from the "range game" cause you had a MAC, huh? Now you're addicted too. HA ha.
Gooch...I've been doin the demo...today I ordered the CD.
BRASS...I went through Air Force Basic in 62 and qual'ed w/ an M1
carbine. The only BRASS we were told about was what the Ossifers wore and
those little gold thingies that flew out of the side of that thar rifle
gun!
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Republic of Texas, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 20:30:09
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.111.52)
The Winchester "Stealth" is the new name of the M70/HBV, and I have 2 in .223, and 2 in .308, and the all shoot very well right out of the box. The barrels are full heavy, as compared to the medium weight barrels on the Rem PSS, and VS. Because of the heavy barrels, they weigh 1.5 pounds more than the equivalent Remingtons... The Wins are factory glass bedded, and shoot well out of the box. It's not a brand thing with me, as I also own 5 Remingtons. But for the price, the Winchester M70's will out shoot the Rems out of the box. (Did I hear someone say "Incoming!")?
Speaking of M70's... walked into one of the local gun shops, there was a bunch of stuff from a collector's estate sale, and I noticed a wood "Marksman" stock in the corner. Looking at it, the stock (in streaked Circasian Walnut), all the hardware, 30-06 barrel, stock fittings, barrel scope sight blocks, etc, were pre-'64 classic M70 Target. But when I opened the bolt, it was a push feed. I thought the bolt had been replaced, but the dealer said "No!". I called Winchester, and after a while, I found out it was one of the last twenty Win M70 Targets they made in '64, all using the old stuff, and the new style bolts... Ah... I'm so poor, and poorer now :))
Would there be any interest in getting up a "Classic" sniper's match, at Storm this fall. M1C's and M1D's, wood stock 14's and 21's... M40's (wood stock and 3x9 Redfields or Unertls), M70 w/Unertls, even '03-A4's... all the old good stuff.
If there's enuff interest, maybe we can get Rod, to set up something
on the side. Drop me an e-mail if you have an oldie but goodie you'd like
to shoot there, and well se if we can use some leverage.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 21:05:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.101)
My qualifications are almost exactly the same as Bill R.
I have shot service rifles at Perry, Atterbury, and Camp Sherman
for about 20 some years. Once I had an itch to try to shoot a bolt rifle
in a high-power match. At the time all I had to use for a match rifle was
a M-70 .243 Post-64 heavy barrel varmit rifle. So I bolted on some Olympic
sights and gave it a try. It was just one of those days. I did the best
shooting I have ever done (prone) with any kind of rife that day using
Sierra 100 gr. SBT at 3000 Fps. The long range target was 500 yards.
A few years later, I tried the same rifle + load at 1000 yards.
I was not as happy. It would hold the black but that is about all I can
say for it. This was before anyone started making the so-called VLD bullets.
I would have had to rebarrel the rifle to shoot those anyway so I never
tried them.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 22:32:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.42.7)
JimD;
If you are getting good at it and can't adjust the scope you should
be a real tyro when you figure it out :o
Any of you thet have experience with the plethora of 10/22 replacement
barrels please send info good/bad.This is terribly off topic so please
use e-mail
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 22:48:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.191)
I'm looking for a person or company that makes a DETACHABLE BOX MAGAZINE for the Remington 700 Long Action.
I know H-S Precision makes one but it only holds 3 rounds.
Is there a source for a magazine that holds more than that? I know
there are several groups and do conversions on M14 magazines and I was
hoping that one of them also did something for 700 LA rifles.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all
Semper Fi
Brian M.
Brian M. <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
El Toro, CA, USA - Friday, June 02, 2000 at 23:38:03 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.156.228.74)
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 00:37:32 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
My HS detachable box mag holds 4 .308 rounds. Do not, I repeat do not, try to get your M700 converted over to a M14 mag. You will not like it. When it is done you can't go back to stock and the things usually dont feed well.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 00:45:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.178)
What Gooch said!! My 'smith does one of the "best" M14 mag conversions
in the country, and his personal opinion is "Well, some guys just want
to have it..." with the "look".
Also, as Gooch said, you can never go back, as the action rails
have to be modified to take the mags... go with the H-S!
Ken...
That's a good start. I have a Lyman Super Targetspot that I'm puttin
on the old Win M70 Target... so now we have "2"!
Any more oldsters, with some classy iron in the back of the closet??
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 00:57:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.98)
They are open Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday but call first because sometimes there is a world class car or motorcycle race going on at the Laguna Seca race track and they have to close down the range for the weekend. I think there is camping available there also, but call the number below to check availability.
Laguna Seca Rifle and Pistol Range office: 831-757-6317
enjoy!
Steve T <styson1@ix.netcom.com>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 01:22:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.205.170.242)
If any of younz are looking for a Chandler m40a3 rifle - there is one forsale in the emporium - that way you don't have to wait for it.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 02:55:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
First, who made the scope? I screwed up and let a Sweedish Mauser with a Leupold Vari-X II 4-12x AO topple over one time, bending the scope at the rear of the objective bell until the objective made hard contact with the barrel. You couldnt tell it was bent when you looked through it but it use looked funny from the outside. :) I sheepishly sent it back to Leupold with a note deshribing how things happened and cringed awaiting the phone call with the bill. About two weeks later, the scope was returned, repaired and with no charge. Is it any wonder tham I am a Leupold guy? :)
Beyond that, it is entirely possible that the rifle suffered no damage
at all. What sort of rifle and stock? Seems like in your case the scope
may well have soaked up enough energy to save anything else. Do you have
any particular reason to belive that this rifle is now out of spec? I wouuld
repair or replace the scope and see how it shot before sepnding any more
money on it unless it has an obvious problem.
Rem 700 Box Magazine Conversions:
I have spent some time contemplating such a conversion and have carefuly considered my options in how to go about doing it. First, moding the rifle to take unmodified M14 magazines seems like a bad bet to me, quite aside from opinions stated here. Too much cutting on the reciever. However, I do have several demilled M14 mag tubes (somebody hit 'em in the side with a pick axe) that are not currently doing anything so I am looking at modifying these to fit the reciever, resulting in a proprietary mag but leaving me with the option of retrofitting a factory feed arrangement. I have already purchased a simple steel ADL trigger guard From Brownells and am looking at fitting a steel escution for the front action screw, releaving me of the need to pawn my left testicle for the Badger bottom metal setup. Screw that noise, I'd have more invested in my trigger guard than I would in a new Savage 110E. So, once I have the trigger guard replaced ansd a nice, secure home for the heads of my action screws, this leaves the entire middle of the stock and action free for me to tinker with. I have also been searching for a more compact .308 Rifle magazine than that of the M14 for this project but so far John Garand's last contribution to US service rifles has proven to be very efficient in its use of space and thus hard to improve upon. I have been known to accept suggestions. :)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 03:29:55 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Brian: please don't do this bad thing, I'd hate to hear of your problems sleeping. I mean, if I was FORCED to butcher good M-14 mags, I couldn't sleep at night from guilt. Of course, there is a GREAT bolt action rifle that takes M-14 mags right off the shelf. It's called a M1A. Just turn the spindle 90 degrees, and you've got a bolt gun. Only takes a casing or screwdriver to turn (or a finger!), and I'm betting on using this way I won't get caught on a stalk (when I learn to stalk that is). BTW: mine still has an active spindle for those who wonder.
'Lito: some guys got all the luck! The best rifle I've found in the podunk towns out here is a worn out Sears 22 ;-) If you're gonna do a "fun oldie" shoot, let me know. I've got a BUNCH of 30-06 that was made for a Garand that had been "slightly accurized". Love to do it, if I'd be allowed with only iron sights, and a DCM legal rifle.
Bruce: YOU GOT IT DUDE! The stuff with the "special reserve" caps is MINE!
Jim D: yeah, played it durring lunch today at work. Made my cohorts question me!
Well, gotta go get more gear in the car. Gonna be a LONG drive tomorrow,
but anything is better than another 8 at work!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
So where's all my gear?, Between Utah and New Mexico, USA - Saturday,
June 03, 2000 at 04:13:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.221)
I'm glad that your "spindle" is still active............ :-o
Tom,
A friend of mine named Paul List (that name might light a couple
mind bulbs in cyberland)was making reliable "shorty" Garands (.308 or .30'06)a
couple years back. The workmanship was exceptional, and very reasonably
priced too.
'Lito,
Antique rifle huh????????? I might be game for that one. Mikey can
use an Arisaka w/Ginsu bayonet, Gooch a three band Enfield, I'll take the
.45 cal Whitworth!
PocketRocket Powers,[The Sniper formerly known a "X-ring", or
(_)*(_) /thats cyber for Spider Bait, uh, Bite]
So its "Old Goat" huh? I'm baaaaaarely Haaaaaaaalf your Aaaaaage!
and I'll be sure to bring along the stop stix, and just casually
throw'em out somewhere, that'll really give you that need for super speed
adrenaline rush. HA!
Have a Great Weekend guys! and you too Mrs. Ken, Major Kim
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD WEST VIRGINNY, USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 05:21:40
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.183)
Greetings from the Hunter home. As we speak, I'm packing my trash for TMO to pick up- on my way to III MEF, Okinawa Japan. If anyone needs anything from the Rock let me know. I'll be deploying to Korea and Thailand too, I've been told.
You guys keep Ken busy while I'm gone. He'll be Home Alone for part of my vacation so I don't want an engine block on my dining room table or a reloading press installed on my kitchen cabinet.
Keep in touch, I'll be posting from the lovely Pacific in July.
major kim
major kim <kim@hunters.org>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 13:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.233.164.10)
The W&E knobs have .675 MOA per click. I orderd knobs with "both BCD yardage and MOA scales on them". (Yardage applies only to elevation.)
I understood this to mean that marks on the knobs would be at each whole MOA and perhaps fractions of MOA depending on the space available. However, markings on the knobs I received correspond directly to "clicks", and are marked 1 to 48 for the 48 clicks on a revolution, i.e. marking lines every .675 MOA.
I called the company and indicated that the markings were in clicks not in MOA as ordered. I was told that what I received WAS an "MOA scale" as clicks were in .675 MOA and the lines corresponded to increments of this fractional MOA number. To get whole MOA all I had to do was multiply by .675. I pointed out that this is unacceptable for timed target shooting or field hunting situations, but this comment was ignored.
I indicated my opinion that markings on any "scale" should occur at whole numbers of the units i.e. whole MOA (as well as reasonable fractions). The company representative was aware that I was new to shooting and told me that I didn't know what I was talking about, and that the industry norm (essentially all scopes made) was for markings to correspond to clicks. I pointed out that this is because most scopes have clicks in fractions of MOA that will add up to each whole MOA (i.e. tenths, quarters, thirds, halfs) unlike .675 which does not.
The representative reiterated his statement that I didn't know what I was talking about and refused to discuss the matter further. The best I was offered was that I could pay additional money to have new W&E spools made with BDC and actual MOA markings.
Opinions please!
......./Bruce
Bruce <brucemacdonald@iprimus.ca>
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 14:56:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.176.153.161)
Ahh yes the old Seabag drag. Have a good flight. Hoist an Orion for me.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 15:11:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.137)
Would appreciate any help!
Vernon <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 16:21:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.73.224.147)
Dennis the spud, Platoon 2095 MCRD 1985 San Diego, California; yeap, hollywood Marine I be.... ;-)
As for BRASS, hell if you can hit the target consistently, who cares now. ;-)
Ciao all
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@darrendong.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 17:08:36 (ZULU)
(your host address: 169.237.17.179)
http://www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/rangegame.html
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 19:45:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.156)
Thanks again!
Vernon <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
Houston, tx, USA - Saturday, June 03, 2000 at 23:21:59 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.73.246.124)
What's all this talk about footballs??!! It's hockey season, eh! Just kiddin', hey all this voodoo-speak with the 'jetwash' as the bullet leaves the bore, well as long as the gases are escaping the bore equally at all six, five, or four grooves, as would be the case with a well-cut crown, you won't have this bullet jump problem. It will be the guy who takes the bandsaw to his 26" pipe so the gun will fit in the gun rack in the back window of his 82 Ford pickup that may have a problem with makin' one hole out of three. It's why I don't care much for the muzzle brake.
But, if you are talking about bullet stability downrange, the longer
the bullet the faster the twist, and it's gonna take that puppy longer
to settle down. You can't determine much on these damn VLD's, as far as
accuracy testing, at 100 yds, ya gotta stretch it out to 125-175yds to
figure 'em out, depending on bore size.
Also read someone talkin' bout good ol' Dr. Mann and his spinning
top discussion. Very simple, easy to understand how RPM's are crucial to
the stability of the modern projectile. Wobbly balls, no good in the field.
I've been working on some 20mm's, 8 gauge industrial gun rifled extensions, oh they are a sight!!! mrbullet, I'll have to show you the tooling for these dogs next time ya stop out!!
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE
JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Sunday, June 04, 2000 at 06:52:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.56)
Unfortunetly what I need is a Detachable Magazine for a Remington 700 LONG ACTION chambered in .300WinMAg
Is there anyplace other than H-S Precision who makes a DM for the 700 LA?
I know H-S Precision is considering an extended magazine for the 700 LA (they already make a standard magazine that holds 3 rounds) but it won't be available until the end of the year......if at all.
Once again HELP.
Brian M. <slapsho7@hotmail.com>
El Toro, CA, USA - Sunday, June 04, 2000 at 08:39:58 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.156.228.86)
Nick <hkmp5_2222@yahoo.com>
slc , ut, USA - Sunday, June 04, 2000 at 22:11:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.140.67.117)
Other stuff: For detachable mags and guards, D.D. Ross Co., 5672
Arlyne Lane, Medina Ohio, 330-725-3032, was tooling up to produce a detachable
mag for Remington 700s a while ago (late 1997). Product number is the M4
Triggerguard with detachable box magazine (10 rd). Guard is fashioned from
4140 steel and hardened to RC48. Mags are nylon reinforced plastic in 1
pc with followers and floor plate separate. Price quote in mid 1998 was
$325 for long action. Spare mag $70. Dan Ross has agreement with McMillna
to inlet stocks to his products. They are not a drop-in component. Apparently
no gunsmithing required on action/bolt assy. good luck
Bill971 <lhardin1@netscape.net>
Clearwater, FL, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 00:08:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.28.5.120)
Just came into posession of a couple of Redfield reciever sights...one is an aluminim job very much like a Willams 5D, so no big deal. The othher is an all steel Model 70S, intended to fit the Springield among others. Its early '50s vintage, with coin adjustment knobs and has a bit of rist on it that should clean up, but otherwise is NIB (yup, came with box, screws and instruction sheet).
Anybody know of any web sites out there that cater to this sort of collectable?
Thanks:
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 01:28:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
The Balistic Coefficient for the M118 173 Gr. lc-88/042 is bewteen .494 to .496 depending on the lot.
the m852 round, lighter projectile, 168 gr., but a little more zip in the muzzle velocity than the m118's 2585 fps. I'm not sure of the exact MV though
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 02:24:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.143)
By the way I just using a Tasco SS10x42M scope on my PSS. What a great scope. I did a side by side comparison between it and a 10X Ultra, and the Tasco seems to be every bit as good a scope at about a third the price.
Once again thanks for the info and keep shootin
Al Gardner <agardner@gtelco.net>
utah, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 03:01:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.197.25.82)
I'll be at Storm for the Rendezvous...
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 03:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
If so, which model/'s, and which do you recommend for shooting at ranges up to 1K.
I'm looking at the 3.5x15, and am thinking it would be best all around, as it is the lightest of the three models, any thought's?
Thanks in advance. Terry
TSHOES <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 03:58:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.192.163)
Come on guys: Anything about Universal Tracking Services? E-mail
me if you like. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 07:10:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.163.142.12)
Thanks, (still learning)
Ben 0311 USMC
Ben Aubin <ben_aubin@hotmail.com>
Lakeland, FL, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 15:53:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.27.88.169)
The above high-end optics also offers many things cheap glass can not. While a mediocre or even mid level sight will look like a champ in clear daylight, as soon as you get it into less than ideal conditions you will note how quickly the image can fall off. The lenses have a lot to do with this and cheaper scopes typically use cheaper glass. They often get blurry at the edge and have several or many aberrations in them that make then less than ideal for critical situations. Consider a good sniper scope. A guy might end up looking through this thing for hours on end, in segments of minutes to actual hours! If the quality is low, he is heading for a major headache even though it looked crisp and clear at the start of his shift behind the trigger. The better the glass, the longer he can stay behind it, to a point. Everyone needs a break of course and switching off is typical. But with low quality glass, it can be down right painful after a while as you eye will suffer more strain. Cheap glass can suffer astigmatism, spherical aberration, and other maladies that are not immediately apparent when you look through a scope over the counter. In optics more than anything else, you get what you pay for. One thing to keep in mind is that OFTEN, a manufacturer will opt for a large objective to mask low quality glass. You will see some really inexpensive 50mm scopes out there that look like great buys but the fact is that the glass is so shitty that they HAD to go big to cover for it. By going large, they moved the fuzzy edge out to where you are less likely to notice and it also allows marginal glass to "look" bright because that big bucket can pass more light. But you often have to hinder yourself with a behemoth to get the light gathering ability as a high-end 40mm objective. It's a trade off.
Then you have optics that cost a lot because of their name or perceived use. Even these have their problems, but going with a known entity can often save you hassles when something goes wrong with it. You can say both good and bad about Leupold. They are not god and have their problems like everyone else. Some would amaze you! But many guys choose to spend more on them for the sole reason that no matter what happens, Leupold will typically fix the problem under warrantee. That alone has kept them on the map!
Put the word Tactical on something, ANYTHING, and you can usually demand a few extra bucks from the masses. It happens all the time. But if a manufacturer does this they still need to go the extra mile to at least give the user something for his money. The addition of specialized reticles, glass reticles, heavier tube walls, more internal adjustment, all these things drive up the price since the optic in question will be of limited use to the general buying public. It is really up to the user to determine if all this is worth it. A guy hunting deer in eastern PA at 40 yards doesn't NEED a mil-dot scope. But he might like to play with it on the hopes of hunting someday in Wyoming. Even then, he doesn't NEED it. But he does need high quality glass. Spend any length of time behind crap glass and you will start to notice the difference, especially if you can place it next to high-end glass for comparison. A good example is the recent Tasco I reviewed. For what it is and for the cost, it is a damn good value and will serve most folks well. But put it next to a scope $400 more expensive and you can see a difference in the image quality. As good as the Tasco SS is for the money, the higher-end glass will usually be a little clearer and have a better twilight factor, given the same objective size. The trick is to determine what you actually need.
The real lower dollar scopes might last a lifetime when used as designed. Hunting twice a year, hitting the range a few dozen times, and spending their lives in a gun cabinet. But the top-o-the-line optics are expected to undergo some serious abuse with out fail. No one WANTS to drop a rifle, but if you do it with cheap scopes you can pretty much be assured of the thing failing. On the other hand, I once dropped a LR M3 onto a cement pad from three or four feet and it didn't even notice. My Busnell Trophy would probably have exploded internally. But in both cases, each level of affordability serves a purpose. The low dollar Trophy gives enough light to hunt with during legal hours and didn't cost me squat. I do not need to dial it in on the hunt because the ranges are short enough to use the Point Blank method for holdover. The LR M3 on the other hand pulls in enough light to shoot in the dark at UKD targets and can handle being dragging and bumped and sat on by my idiot friends who think a drag back looked mighty comfy just then!
In the end what you use should really be determined by what you need. If the BSA works for you, go with it. No point in spending $680 on a LR M3 if you aren't dragging your rifle through crap that would make a deer cry. You also do not need a tactical scope to get a strong scope. Many mid price optics will take serious abuse on the hunt or in the field. For instance, if I was going west to hunt elk, I'd leave the Trophy home and get something by a reputable maker in the $400 range because I know it will have to survive horseback, backpacking, a possible drop or three, a canoe trip, and very low light conditions where so-so glass gives up.
Use what works for the situations you foresee. That could mean a $100 department store scope or a $900 Tactical scope or anything in between.
Scott
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 17:27:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.35)
Hey, did you get my email on the big wreck? That'll teach my buddy, bumbing my tire like that from behind! The pervert! Wild to see his bike cartwheeling behind me down the track. Talk about your bullets going to sleep. That poor GSX-R didn't settle down until there was no plastic left!!! Ouch!
Just a week away till Summit. You going to toss them thar shootin' sticks into my spoke-thingies or just try for the moving shot? ;-)
We gotta meet there sometime!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 17:32:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.35)
Scott has an excellent point, fit the equipment to the need. My experience with scopes is limited to Burris and Leupold. The first scope I had was a Burris 6-18x40, and it was great (it really is a fine scope!!). However, after looking through the scope for several hours (and hundreds of prairie dogs) in the blinding sun of Wyoming, I experienced significant eye strain. I then tried a Leupold 6.5-20x40, and have never had the problem, so now I only shoot with Leupold. The slight difference in coatings and optical quality really come into play after extended periods of eye-time. With that comes a price delta of a few hundred dollars, though I think it is well worth it.
I HATE equipment that fails to perform, so I tend to spend more on what I perceive (and experience) to be superior equipment.
Steve
Steve <steve_duey@hp.com>
Colorado, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 19:15:07 (ZULU) (your host
address: 15.254.49.4)
i have a problem...i have a friend who wants to become a sniper and
i have been one and i told him the being a sniper is like 4000000 times
worse than your worst day but he wont believe me...the address i have given
the phantom.....email him and tell him that a sniper is not all it is cracked
to be...
Thank You
anonymous <phantom4213@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 19:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.156.136.50)
I'll add my penny's worth to what the others have said.
First, most people never get to look through a top grade scope under
difficult conditions. Peeking out the gun shop's door, or looking through
someone else's scope at the range for a minute, won't do it.
As Steve Duey said, you need to use it under hard conditions to
really understand where the money went.
My partner at last years sniper match, had a $400-500 Leupold on
his gun, so he's not one who's never had a good scope.
He just bought a 10x B&L Tac to put on a new rifle that he's
building, and his only words were:
"WOW... I finely know what you guys are talkin' about".
It's the same scope that I had on a rifle that went off a cliff
in the middle of a match... hard enough to move the mount, but the scope
was untouched... and with a quick adjustment, I finished the match with
a 95/110.
Same with the other really fine scopes... lack of glare in bright sun, having clear detail in the shadows (where the targets usually hide), all come at a hefty price.
A friend told me that my new B&L 6x24 was the same scope as his Bushnell 6x24, and that I had waisted my money... until he looked into it, and said "OH Sh*t"... (unfortunatly, the B&L line has been terminated :((
The MK4-M3, (at almost $1100, discount) is a much tougher scope than
its little brother, the M3-LR.
The M3-LR has had it's share of focus problems (as several on this
site can confirm)... but it's $500 cheaper that the MK4 version.
I disagree with what Scott said about price and name... The scope market is very competive, and you can't get by with a name attached to a POS for very long. Consider what happened to Redfield, one of the top scopemakers in America, now history because that started to make crap, and coast on their reputation.
Leupolds, B&L, Schmidt & Benders, and the others have good names because they have earned them the old fashioned way... they build very good scopes... and you have to pay for them.
You may love your BSA, and I'm not knocking it, but when you really press it, it will fail... optically, and machanically.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 19:52:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Also don't leave 77gr and SS109 loose in your kit - you look like a real ass when you can't seem to get it together at 500m then its discovered your shooting two differnt ammo's - and worse when its realised that you didn't know. Dropped too many points from stupidity
Yet, a M4 can be very competitive at service rifle comps
- Yes Dave I'm serious - but I think I'll stick to SS109 only -
no need to mix and match LOL.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 20:49:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.139.146)
To those of us who don't have $4000 for a real 10x, here's our chance!
alex <alexf@americanimex.com>
USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 22:51:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.76.234.23)
Thanks a million,
Brock
Brock <anthony@grnco.net>
Paragould, AR, USA - Monday, June 05, 2000 at 23:36:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.60.10.28)
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 00:02:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Anthony - I went throught the same thing w/ my B&L Tac (ya I know how can you use up 144 MOA) What sort of bases and rings are you running?
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 02:04:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.135.163)
I have heard that the service is dropping the 92 Beretta for a HK or Sig due to some flaw which allows one to pull the slide off FORWARD even when ready to fire...
Sounds hard to believe. I know the special forces use the HK in .45 but what of the rest...?
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 02:31:20
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.131.62)
Brock.... You shim the REAR base up to gain elevation on a scope
without enough elevation adjustment. Scope objective bell down =
barrel up. If you have the usual twist-in dovetail front ring, two
screw rear ring mount, Leupold makes a tapered one-piece LR base
that will fix you right up, but.... I strongly recommend upgrading
to a MK4 type mounting system. You don't put $50 dollar tires on a 180mph
sports car, do you? Do yourself a favor and check out SC's HotTips
and In Review for answers to your questions!
Thank you all, Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 05:25:28 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.64.194)
Thanks again.
Christopher Moore <http://www.cmoore@portofsandiego.org>
San Diego, California, USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 11:14:25 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.215.153.180)
how do i retire a mark wearing body armour with a moderated .222
hps?
antonio banderas <no.1@yahoo.com>
london, england - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 11:54:49 (ZULU) (your host
address: 62.172.221.131)
Antonio in England or should I say Walter Middy. Get a grip! Have another beer and fantasize a little longer about about you and Sly Stallone in a hide, alone, just loin cloths, shower shoes and a light coat of oil. There you go...now bend over...
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 13:42:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.145)
Some careful guys have figured a way to build up the cant you need
via epoxy resin but this would be my last choice. Actually it would not
be my choice under any circumstances. One of the simplest and neatest things
out there WAS the Armament Technology tapered shim but that is no longer
in production.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 17:28:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.35)
I have a Muzzlevel. V/1 of 793 M/ Sek. and a retained Vel. of 640 M/Sek. at 300 Meters.
Using the Oehler Ballistic Explorer that gives me a G1 BC of 0,5413.
Now compared to what has been stated here and in other info I have on hand that seems a little high for a M118 173 Grainer ????
Info Please !
Thanks
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 20:38:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.173)
I use the Comp M on my AR and love it. I can use it to 300 yards, no sweat, with only a slight hold over. It seems to be a very rugged unit as far as a sight is concerned. The battery lasts well over 100 hours (200+ hours and counting) on a moderate brightness setting. I like the controls because they are easy to find and use. The clarity is excellent and the dot is bright yet crisp. (I'm not an Aimpoint salesman, but I kinda wish I were.) I believe they were selected for an Army contract of 80,000 units, so they must also be somewhat reliable under stress. I have dropped mine a number of times (butter fingers) and have had the rifle knocked over, and the sight is still living with not even a scratch. (For me, this is amazing) I paid $402 with tax, but they go for less now. Its large optics are designed to allow a two-peeper sighting and it works well with both eyes open. (It's a riot to watch people close an eye!) It also has some military style features such as safety wired caps, water proofing, front lens coating to hide the internal dot, 2 settings for use with night vision equipment, dark matte finish, lens caps, and a rugged body. I have yet to hear an significant complaint about them from others I know who use them. Well, just my 2 cents worth.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 20:44:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.160.159.192)
Yes, the Beretta 92 and 96 series allow field stripping with a round
chambered. I don't see this as a problem as a jammed round (and this has
happened) can require field stripping to release the ejector. (This usually
only happens with a damaged round. I have never had this happen with a
spec round.) The slide cannot be removed without releasing the takedown
lever, so there really is no danger of an accidental release. As far as
the DoD replacing them, I don't know. If someone does release the slide
with a chambered round, no problemo, engage the safety to roll away the
firing pin to prevent butterfingers from dropping the slide with the loaded
round and having the round go off. Also, the slide slides right back on,
no sweat.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 20:56:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.160.159.192)
Antonio Banderas,
You have no idea what this website is about. You need to read the
warning at the top of the page. Also, who talks like that? Walk back into
your movie screen.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 21:14:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.4.177)
Secondly: SOLDIERS AND DOGS STAY OFF THE GRASS!
Remembrance Day isn't about to become a national holiday any time
soon. Prime Minister Jean Chretien has rejected the idea, which was raised
by delegates at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities conference in
London, Ontario. While Chretien agrees that it should be a paid holiday,
he says the costs involved dictate that the decision should be left to
the individual provinces. Glen Everit, Mayor of Dawson City,Yukon, says
the cost of paying staff on a day off is too high to justify Remembrance
Day being classified a national holiday. Winnipeg City Councillor Lillian
Thomas says the issue shouldn't come to dollars and cents when soldiers
from across the country paid for our freedom with their lives.
Only in Canada
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Sadly Shaking his HEad, in, Canada - Tuesday, June 06, 2000 at 21:53:12
(ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.133.18)
So Jamee at Tactical Ordinance was putting the finishing touches on my new shootin' Iron and came to an alarming discovery, I went with the Badger rings and the Maximized rail. I also have a MK4 M3 and come time to bore site things, the forward cant does not allow the scope to go down to the 100 yd range because the cant is too steep.
So, A question, while you would need the extra MOA for the Vari X M3 LR for 1000 yd shooting, does the MK4 M3 have the come ups for 1000 yd?
Semper Fi
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 00:14:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.39)
The MK4-M3 has a built in optical taper, and has (from optical center) about 10 moa of down, and about 65-ish moa of elevation, so there's plenty of elevation to reach 1100 meters, but you have to use a "flat" mount with no taper.
The M3-LR, has no such internal optical taper, so you need it in the mounts, or you can't reach the full distance.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 00:51:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@darrendong.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 02:25:54 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.0.249.52)
Thanks for the reply, the badger base is going and a new mount is being put on and trued up so my new rifle will ship on Thursday.
Kevin and Bill, while serving on the range on Pendleton, an old time Vietnam era vet shared a quote with me that he saw some where,
" For those who fight for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know"
Let us never forget those who gave their lives for the freedom we
have today.
Semper Fi.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 03:46:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.72)
Thanks for the reply, the badger base is going and a new mount is being put on and trued up so my new rifle will ship on Thursday.
Kevin and Bill, while serving on the range on Pendleton, an old time Vietnam era vet shared a quote with me that he saw some where,
" For those who fight for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know"
Let us never forget those who gave their lives for the freedom we
have today.
Semper Fi.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 03:46:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.72)
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 03:49:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.72)
Pablito; You mentioned something about good and bad sheep. Ive never met a bad a one and Im sure Jawja boy hasnt either.
Love the acronym B.R.A.S.S., but in the Air Force we used --- Breathe, Relax, Evaluate, Align, Sight, and Taste. Well you guys figger it out.
Remington detachable mags. Want an excellent detachable mag system, get an AICS stock and use their mags. Excellent and sturdy lock-up and positive feed all the time. Dont believe me, try one. they really are great.
Al Simon: Al S. You see Al (the other one) we real men never and I say never, use the Hot Tips here in Sniper Country. We would rather have Kent G. and Rick B. answer the same questions for the ump-teenth time. It gives us something to read and say - "Hey I knew that!!"
Al o. The younger and Handsomer one
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
The Sunny Side of the Street in , Ohio, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000
at 09:36:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.77)
Thanks for your advise, As you would have guessed I am a newbie and don't know much. I aquired a Savage 12BVSS That had been reworked by a gunsmith that caters to such things. The original owner was a sniper for the Police dept. in our town. The optics that were on the rifle wouldn't track so I bought the M1 long Range.
The bases you nice fellows mentioned I can't find in our catalogs. (we have a gunshop, mind you a small gunshop)I have looked in brownell's and sinclair intl', the main problem is the "savage" part. ( imagine that )
again, I appreciate all the advise you guys have to offer, as you would imagine, little talk of such things goes on around here. If you asked these same questions in my shop the local people would claim to hit a skoal can at a mile with thier trusty ol' 742 woodsmaster!
Brock
Brock <anthony@grnco.net>
Paragould, AR, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 11:55:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.21.151.187)
'lito,
Where do you come up with all this info??? You never cease to amaze
me!!! Hows the 40x doing?? Did you Teflon coat it yet??
Gooch,
Jr. last night and he finishes the second phase of sniper school
this weekend and will graduate as the top gun!! He said "Hammer" is his
team mentor and he said,a What a charcter he is!!!(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 12:03:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Gooch,
Sorry about the goofed up post, my computer is locking up when I
type and then it will still post something that I deleted and not put in
something I typed. It should read that he "Called" last night and if anything
else sounds odd thats why, I hope this will post correctly(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 14:11:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Grunt: The ADL and the BDL are the same in terms of receiver and barrel. The only difference is the quality and type of stock, the magazine design and the finish. The BDL has a full length floor plate/trigger guard/magazine. You can dump rounds out the bottom by opening the trap and letting the floor plate fall open. The ADL has a blind magazine (no hole in stock). The only way to unload it is to cycle the bolt. It only has a trigger guard large enough to cover the trigger. It does not extend under the magazine. BUT the ADL/BDL receiver and barrel is the same except for the luster of the finish.
BDLs are no more accurate than ADLs and vice versa. Being the same
barreled action, no surprise there. You can convert an ADL to a BDL by
getting a BDL type stock and purchasing the following parts: BDL trigger
guard, BDL action screws, BDL box magazine, BDL follower and follower spring.
I think it all runs around $60 or so. I have modified an ADL box magazine
to fit the BDL and reused the spring and follower, so if you are good with
tools you can save a few bucks by shortening the ADL box mag to fit the
BDL trigger guard. But you have to know how short to go and what contour
to cut it at. Borrowing one from a buddy as a template is highly recommended
before trying this.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 14:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.35)
According to NSWC, Crane the BC for the M118 SB projectile is .541 @ 2677 fps. This was gotten through firing tests during the last round of testing of the new M118LR. The only problem with this is that the quality control for the 173gr projectile was so bad since the 80's that there were some pretty bad fluctuations in weight, jacket thickness, construction quality etc. Anyone that has shot "old" M118 "Match" (white box) will tell you that the white box was a good round but when it became "special ball" or "brown box" all hell broke loose.
I have data from a class at Quantico where the class shot up till qualification with M118 Match, then had to qualify with M118 Special Ball. It was not a happy class. If they hadn't cheated for each other in the butts I think we would have had only a few lucky grads that school.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 15:07:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.156)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 15:19:28 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.66.43)
By the way, anyone wanting to do this sort of thing should call around or drop by shops that do smith work. One friend managed to pick up everything he needed from a smiths used parts bin. Got it all for $40 maybe three years ago. Not too shabby considering the full retail price you just quoted for new! Like everything else guys SHOP AROUND!!!
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 17:42:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.34)
ADL vs BDL - Most throw away the barrel and stock anyway so why worry about it. After purchasing steel floor plate and trigger guard, new stock, new barrel, why pay the extra 150 for the floor plate you are not going to use anyway? Just my view on the ADL vs BDL.
Pat - Give congrates to your youngen for a job well done.
Time to run for one more beer. Got new students today and we start the fun again!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 20:07:27 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.51)
Cripes I love the first day of this course!
Rick <rbowcer@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 20:10:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.51)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 20:58:18 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.65.112)
Sorry I didn't answer your last e-mail... that computer is in for a brain and memory transplant, and all my mail is on it. Too bad the owner can't get a faster CPU, and more memory ;(.
I get that "info" from a jelly jar under the table labled "gun stuff" ;)
The gun is still apart on the bench, I have three cans of teflon,
and the oven thingie to cook it in.
I've been up to my buns in Alligators... but now the owner of the
baddest Macintosh in the North East (140 gigs of LVD hard drives:))
and it absolutly SCREAMS!!!
I plan to have the Rem done in about 10 days, and if the Teflon job comes out good, I'll take pictures, and write it up for SC, if not... I'll hide it under the bed.
I'm doing the metal in black, and putting it in the sand and spinach
M24 stock you gave me. Got a new Mk4-M3, with a M118 cam (tracks the new
M118-LR, and GM2) to top it off :)).
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 07, 2000 at 21:46:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
I've been lurking and noticed a post or two on the subject of choppin' barrels. Mr. Rogers, you are on the mark, as usual. I've heard that many who have cut their bbls have not lost any accuracy and many have actually shot better with the shorter bbl. Well, a shorter bbl with same contour is stiffer than its longer counterpart, obviously, but there is another good explanation. I have air-gaged a many a factory bbl, and with some, the groove dia tapers up to .001" from chamber to muzzle. Example : .308 win - chamber end @ .3085, mzl end @ .3095. Most of them hold a .0006" uniformity from end to end, but even so, you will gain performance with less bullet upset that would be caused by an overly unparallel bore, a bore with excessive taper in the groove/bore diameters. I don't think it would be as noticeable if the taper was from muzzle to chamber, but that does not seem to be the case with the factory bbls I have studied. They're all bigger at the mzl end. But, if you were thinking about cutting your barrel down, and had access to an air gage, it would be kind of interesting to see the correlation. Maybe I'll see what I can do, get some results, and see if my dumbass can stand behind my theory. Hell, I've got nothin' but time, yeah right!!
Every day's a holiday!!!!!!!
JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 00:47:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.197.179)
Jerry, Thanks for the info as we speak the pennies (I mean that literallty:))
are being stacked in a secret hiding place, when the stack hits the right
size I will give ya a call.
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <LmcPher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, In, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 01:14:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.24)
You fellers done run Antonio Banderas off before we cood git any
nekid pichures of his ol'lady......DAMN a real moovee star.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 01:42:39 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.195.21)
Does your barrel suck? I'll bet it does. I think mine does also.
In fact, everyone's barrel sucks if you believe one of the premier 1000
yard benchrest gunsmiths opinion. You can read all about it in the latest
precision shooting issue. According to him, there is a vacum created when
the bullet and gas leave the bore and this draws air back into the barrel
and causes the bore to become oversize at the muzzle end. It is not cleaning
rod damage as most assume. This is unavoidable, and it extends about 5/8
inch back into the barrel. He recomends cutting off at least 1 inch of
barrel and recrowning every 700 to 800 rounds. (at least for 1000 yard
benchrest cartridges). I just thought I'd throw that in for comment.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 02:04:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.169)
Anyway must go rest - hafta shoot more tomorrow
(P.S. Greg [the lurker] loves it too)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 03:42:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.142.32)
In the Military there are special devices attached to the Tank and artillery barrels called “Bore evacuators” this is a chamber that does pull a vacuum as a result of some engineering. Your rifle does not have a bore evacuator I bet.
As for big muzzles there are a lot of reasons you might get “Bugeling”
Benchrest barrels are usually button rifled. The button expands the bore
and leaves residual stress in the bore and over time and with the trauma
of a bullet ripping through the bore, the muzzle will open. This is most
prevalent in button rifled barrels.
Just some thoughts.
Martin <Badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 05:17:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.29)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 12:45:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
just thought I would let you know, Talked to Mike a techkie at Brownells. He suggested and I ordered Burris signature rings. The 30mm High rings come with eccentric inserts. .010" on the bottom in the rear and .010" on the top in the front would give me all the adjustment I need. Also would not harm the scope as it would allign itself do to the "knuckle ball" setup on that type of ring. The rings will fit my existing bases, and only cost 50 bucks.
Going to give this method a try as it is the easiest, I have read lots of older "precision shooting" books and magazines, but I haven't seen any comment on this type of rings. Usually If it's crap people talk about it and if it's heavenly they talk about it. They may be somewhere in the middle....
One more quick question, my rifle was Devcon bedded, I took it to the gunsmith that built the thing and he said it was a strange color, Can Devcon bedding go bad??
So many questions....
Brock
Brock <anthony@grnco.net>
Paragould, AR, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 12:51:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.60.10.59)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 14:31:23 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.4.91)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 14:35:58 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.4.91)
Brock...
The Burris rings with the inserts are very good. I use them on all
my 1" scopes, and they allow you to set up the scope so your 100 "zero"
is at the bottom of the turret travel, so you have nothing but "UP" for
full range... very nice.
Wish some maker of heavy 30mm tactical rings, would make some that
were bored out for the burris 30mm inserts, they would "own" the tactical
ring market! (Martin??)
--------------
On the vacuume thing... there is a moment after the shot is fired,
that the pressure in the barrel drops below ambient, then oscillates high,
and low, for several cycles, because the high speed gas in the barrel continues
to go forward from momentum.
It's the same effect that exists in racing engines, where the speed
of the outgoing exaust gas is used to suck in the new charge... they call
it "scavaging".
In the gun barrel, the full weight of the charge (say 44 grains),
is now 44 grains of gas, and is going forward at 3 to 4 times the speed
of sound. As the pressure drops to "0", the gas is still moving forward,
and "overshoots" the zero differential pressure point, because of the momentum
of the weight of the gas.
At this point, the remaining gas that is moving forward, continues,
and the pressure goes below ambiant, or starts to make a vacuume. The pressure
probably goes down to 1/2, or 3/4 of ambiant pressure, and then it stops,
and starts to flow back in to the barrel, and of course, now does the same
thing if reverse, and the pressure will go slightly high.
This happens several times, at a frequency of about 500 cycles per
second, and can be seen on high speed shadow graph, or "schlerien" films,
as a "pucker" at the muzzle.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 14:40:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Your "best buddy", Sly
Sylvester Stallone <iou1@rambo.com>
Beverly Hills, CA, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 17:03:05 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.65.168)
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
portland, or, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 18:18:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.255.8.9)
If (and I say "IF" because this whole thing is speculative) there
is a burning of the last 1/2" of the muzzle, it would be just as the bullet
leaves the barrel. The bullet is traveling at 3000-ish pfs, but once the
bullet clears the barrel, the gas (at around 12,000psi) races out at speeds
of 4,000 to 6,000 fps, and durring this period, I would suspect the "burning
takes place.
But remember that he's talking about cases that are burning 80-100
grains of powder, no the little winkie dink 7.62's we shoot.
Is it something to worry about, or even to think about... no!
Bill Rogers and I shot competive bench rest (back just after the
Spanish American War! ;), and we often swap e-mail with much laughter about
those days, and the trully CRAZY people in BR.
The Bench crowd raises the definition of anal retentive compulsive
to an all time level.
If you look up "anal retentive compulsive" in a phsycological dictionary, it says "See... Benchrest shooter!!"
They worry about stuff that nobody else cares about, and this is one of those things.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 20:05:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
We first postulate that the argument is true - that the vacuum affects have an effect on the bore at the muzzle. For this to be true, the gas which enters or exits the muzzle must be at a high temperature or total pressure (which includes the velocity head). The gas is at ~50,000 psi and maybe 1000 C at the throat. Due to expansion, the pressure is down to about 15,000 psi (guess, assuming a slow burning powder) at the muzzle and maybe several hundred degrees C. This gas will exit the barrel in the thin annular ring between the base of the bullet and the crown in the instant the bullet leaves the barrel.
The gas will rush out of the barrel, mixing with the atmosphere as it does so. The internal pressure of the barrel will drop to maybe 0.5 atm or -7 psi gage (another guess). After mixing, the temperature of the overall gas at the muzzle will be ~40-80 deg. C and one atmosphere. This will rush back into the barrel, damaging the muzzle as it does so. There will be two to three cycles of decreasing amplitude which follow.
This sounds a bit fishy to me. The best time for any damage to occur is when the bullet just leaves the barrel and there is a thin ring through which the gas exits. This ring will be on the order of 0.002" wide and the diameter of the bullet. It would habe the expected effect of rounding the very edge of the crown, since it exits at 45 degrees. Some grab a good barrel, with 4-5000 rounds through it, and look at the edge with a magnifying glass. If there is a problem, it will be evident.
Also, where are the temperature and pressure the highest? Right, at the throat. How fast is throat erosion and when does it become a problem? Since the pressure and temperature are so mush lower at the muzzle, and flame cutting follows an exponential instead of linear curve, is it a factor in the life of a barrel?
I think he's barking up the wrong tree and trying to drum up business. I would say more, but I've used up my cliche ration and have to wait until next week.
Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 22:18:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
Thermal sights let the user see differences in heat between an object
and its background. As an 11H we used them on the TOW II. These have a
range of several klicks. How do you spoof thermal sights? You can't.
What you can do is take advantage of their weaknesses. They can't
see you behind vegetation or if you're in a depression. They also don't
work well in heavy fog or rain. The cold moisture in the air masks your
body heat. At Ft. Bragg one night, I watched my squad leader through the
thermal sight as he walked away from our position on Sicily DZ. After about
100 meters, he simply vanished. The thick fog masked him from the thermal
sight. As he approached our position again, he was visible to the naked
eye before he was visible in the thermal sight.
Fog and rain act similarly to IR optics. The water in the air reflects
the IR light back to the optic and gives the effect of static to the person
wearing them.
If possible plan your movements to coincide with rain or fog. Rain
will also help mask any sounds you make and soften the leaves on the ground
so they don't crinkle when you step on them. If the enemy is looking for
you, rain and heavy fog will cut down on the range of his optics. If it's
the first hard rain in a while, the enemy might be too busy trying to stay
dry to look for you.
Stealth is an attitude. There is no magic spray or uniform that
will make you invisible. But if you layer your techniques, you can make
it harder to be seen.
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
rohnert park, ca, USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 22:46:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.197.23.26)
Pete... deturgent "brightners" work in the UV range, not the Ir range
(other end of the spectrum).
The problem with Ghillie suits in NVD,s is then appear black in
vegatation, not bright. The main efforts to cammo night clothes is to make
them as bright as the local veggies, not to reduce the brightness.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 08, 2000 at 23:58:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
THANKS RECONDO
RECONDO <JASE007911@JUNO.COM>
FT CAMPBELL, KY, USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 00:35:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.10.254.177)
Jerry for my next toy I'm thinking of a .338 LM
Anyway I'm drenched and frozen (beat that Mike - even better than a mud puddle) I'll have a beer in the bath.
P.S. If it ain't rain'in it ain't train'ig
Now I gotta go to Storm!
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 00:47:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.132.164)
That was supposed to be: If it ain't raining ... it aint training!!!
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Soggy and Cold in, Canada - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 00:50:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.148.132.164)
The notion that a vacuum causes muzzle wear is a peculiar one to
me also. I don't see how that a little air drawn into the bore will cause
erosion. But if it IS true that it causes erosion, it must be because when
that air enters the muzzle it acts like a jet afterburner, or a supercharger
on an engine. The air is being rammed into the muzzle and it gives that
last little bit of exiting burning gasses a oxygen boost. Sort of a secondary
explosion. Could it be?
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 02:59:57 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.24.202)
The pre-64 actions are sweet, grab it if you can.
The Tactical Ordinance company was building tactical rifles
on the old M-70 actions, from what I have heard from filks that
bought one, they loved it.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 03:29:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.86)
Go ahead and put this in the archives under golden tips if you will
Marius. I want to share my knowledge with the world.
Lito's right bout them benchers. I always wondered how in the world
somebody so uptight and nervous about stuff they get bent out of shape
over could ever settle down and shoot a group that small.
Only bench shoot I ever won was in a 45 mile an hour wind over at
Dodge City one day in the 60's. I rationalized that I won because they
were all so nervous they were gonna have one round blow clear off the paper
that they all blew their groups.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 03:37:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
I was going to paint it, but it is such a beautiful gun as is - maybe I'll wait a week or so.
Jerry you should make the AICS an option, its a great combo
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 05:39:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.144.27)
I also recently ordered a cherry media cabinet for my wife and it arrived with broken glass and wood. I sent it back and a new one was shipped FedEx, same packaging, and was fine. Anyone else have problems with UPS? I'm considering setting up a website where folks can upload shipping damage pix. The moral of the story is, always ship in a good rifle case and ship FedEx or Airborne.
http://photos.yahoo.com/breakpointx
Breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 14:00:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.3.204.222)
Have any of youn'z used that Federal 180 BTHP Match ammo. Saw this
listed on the Ammoman.com website.... Is this stuff any good? Any better
than the 175?.....
thanks in advance,
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 16:33:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
a) The M3-LR MUST use tapered bases, or it won't reach full range.
b) The brochure says it's for a 168 SMK, but it's in error... the cam (BDC dial) that comes with the M3-LR is marked up for the new military round... M118-LR, which is the 175 SMK at 2685fps.
There were two .308 cams for the old M3-LR... they are both marked 308M on the top, but on the side, one is marked 308M, amd it's for the 175, and is in meters... the other is marked 308Y, and is for the 168, and is in yards. I don't know if there is a "308Y" for the current production M3-LR as yet.
c) If you use the Fed GM2 with the supplied cam, it will track fairly
well out of the box, as it is a close copy of the M118-LR round.
Because of the poor data supplied with the scope... many have shot
the 168 SMK (standard Fed GM), and it tracks very poorly.
d) Yes... One of my M3-LRs has this problem, and is going back for
the second time... Pat
e) In the other tactical scopes, football reticles are only available through Premier... but on the M3-LR, only football reticals are available, even from SWFA. The M3-LR is factory fitted with the Premier retical, and can't be had with round dots.
Hope this helps.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 18:48:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
a) Does the M3 LR need a tapered base or will regular MK4 base and rings work ok?
You do not need tapered bases UNLESS you want to shoot beyond 700 odd yards. Then you will either have to shim the bases or used a tapered base. The LR M3 has about 55 moa of usable travel from zero with the 308 dial, but your rifle may take up some of that for its zero. So a tapered base will be called for.
b) The M3 LR has a turret for 168 gr @ 2,600 fps. What if I can only get say 2,500 fps or so will this dramatically effect the settings?
It DOESN"T MATTER! Why? Because the turret is also marked in one MOA increments. Ignore the upper single digit range markings and just use the lower moa markings. Once you figure out what moa setting matches your set up, you can go back and either re-mark the upper range markings or tape over them and mark the tape, or just plain ignore them. You will find it just as fast to dial in XX moa instead of X range. You can even hand-paint new single digit numbers on the upper portion of the turret it if suits you. So, do not sweat this one.
c) Does anyone out there use 175 gr bullets with a 168 gr turret and if so how does this change the POA/POI.
See above note. I almost exclusively use the Fed GM2, 175 grain cartridge and I am using the 308M turret, which is supposedly set for the 168g @ 2600. Again, by ignoring the upper markings it becomes a non-issue. Use the MOA markings till you know and have proven your dope, then go back and re-mark the upper markings. Also keep in mind that your dope will change with temp, alt, and humity, so relying totally on the range marker won't cut it anyway. Never assume that dialing in a 6 will get you a dead center hit at 600 EVERY day of the year. You will have to compensate for the conditions. you can do this with either of the turret markings, but will mostly rely on the lower moa marks anyway. Example: 6 (upper) minus 2 moa (lower scale) for conditions.
d) I've heard that there have been some (focus) problems with the M3 LR. Is there any substance to these rumors?
Not in my personal experience but others have had problems. Every scope manufaturer has had issues of one sort or another at one time or another on a small scale, but by going with a very well known brand you have better odds. I can name some very interesting problems that Leupold has had, but when looked at against the entire production, these are insignificant.
e) I see the M3 LR advertised at Premier Reticle and SWFA. How do these scopes differ? (football vs round???)
Same scope. Different retailer.
All: Have a great weekend. Try not to fight..unless it is edjamucashinalll....
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Friday, June 09, 2000 at 19:02:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.34)
I will pick up my family from the US military National Capitol Region at the end of the month and move to Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
I will assume command of the United States Army Parachute Team, The Golden Knights, at 0900 on 5 July 2000. You're tentatively invited to attend (the entire team will jump in to the ceremony).
Hold hard.
(Hey Rick, I'm coming back to Bragg!)
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 00:10:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Soft Landings,
Dave.
David Biggers <pathfinder27th@hotmail.com>
Ft. Worth, Texas, USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 02:28:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.178.143.170)
Congrats! I hope the assignment is a enjoyable as it would seem.
Funny, though, I know what a commanding officer's duties are, but
I just can't get the thought out of my head of you standing in the door
of the aircraft and yelling, "Jump!", then turning around and saying "There.
I did MY job." (haha)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 03:00:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.5.13)
www.snipercountry.com/M14_Magazines.htm
Col Liwanag, Congrats. Still don't know why you guys jump out of perfectly good aircraft.... but, if you're into that.. Have fun!!
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 03:01:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.139)
Thank You,
JFW
Jack Wilson <jackwilson@anglefire.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 06:31:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.4.254.160)
Col. Liwanag: Many congratulations to you and your family. Dropped just at the thought of airborne (Yes, I was a simple LEG).
Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 07:26:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.39.130.26)
The M3LR is a decent scope. It like every thing else has it pros
and cons.You need a tapered base if you are going to shoot long range.You
cannot attach a sunshade you need to use ARD which reduces the amount of
light gathering.I for one like a sun shade.Its not going to be as sharp
as a fixed power scope.As far as shooting close range with it
I have no ploblem keeping 5rds inside a 5/8 inch black target paster
@100 meters. I like the fact that I can dial down power settings
for
movers,stress course and night time shooting. I like the positive
audible clicks it gives you unlike my Mark4 which tends to be a bit mushy
and sometimes back-lashes(still an excellent scope).
As far as the 308M dial mine does not track 168's @2600.
But it tracks 175's @2690 close. For example @600 meters my dope
is
6+1 But as you already know that exceeds SAMMI specs.
My opinion is 2500 is too slow for long range shooting with the
308
My dope for 2550 @600 meters is 6+4 thats a little over a foot and
a half lower than I perfer,never mind 50fps (2500)! Another great feature
is the MOA markings on the dial I personally like to be close
to whats on my dial so I know I'm in the ball park(KISS).
Hope that helps you out. Have a nice day.
Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 15:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.117.43.96)
Col. Dave...Finally a slot to jump just "Hollywood"??!! Outstanding !!
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 16:04:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
199.174.129.154)
Frank <Wawrzos@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 19:59:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.254.112.9)
Thanks
Craig <crhanson@telusplanet.net>
USA - Saturday, June 10, 2000 at 23:32:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
161.184.18.174)
A Most Excellant Promotion! Bet them Ghillies sound neat at 120 MPH
Now Rick B. doesn't have an chance of a HEINOUS excuse for not driving up in September for the Rendezvous!
Rob, 65 INCH POUNDS, Hit the Hot Tips and Cold Shots before you start
Mista Gooch pounding his favorite British Brew - Guiness.
Craig, Ditto - Go to Hunters Specialties Web Page :http://www.hunterspec.com/asp/product.asp?ProdId=70
for your needs. Cut'n'paste not a hyperlink.
Bill Moore, The Badgers should to at least as well a job on return
to zero. BUT you better verify that any remount, with and mount/ring combo
gives you what you need.
Switch barrel hmmmmmmm 22.-250, 260, 308 might be nice?
Ofta eat grilled Bacon wrapped Delmonicos with the missus.............
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 01:56:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.21)
Congrats on the transfer, Col. Dave... wish I wasn't a newbie at
work and could take a day and drive over to watch the ceremony... but since
I'm already in line for having the Friday off after that for going to Grandfather
Mountain, don't think I'd better ruffle any feathers and go for another
day off that week....
Anyway....
Ciao for the moment....
-Leslie
Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA line, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 02:58:17 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.98.95.16)
If you do have persistent problem with damages and broken into packages, you can call 1-800-PICK UPS and as for the number for the Loss Prevention Department in your area, or ask any dirver you meet the phone number to the center which they work out of. We at UPS take Theft and destruction of packages VERY seriously and you will get answers. But be diligent.
But also remember that for every damage that happens with UPS packages, remember all of the deliveries made on time every day. If you have any particular concerns, you can e-mail and maybe together we can try to work out your problem.
Hope this helps!!
al o.
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Sitting Here wondering in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 15:18:04
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.91)
If you do have persistent problem with damages and broken into packages, you can call 1-800-PICK UPS and as for the number for the Loss Prevention Department in your area, or ask any dirver you meet the phone number to the center which they work out of. We at UPS take Theft and destruction of packages VERY seriously and you will get answers. But be diligent.
But also remember that for every damage that happens with UPS packages, remember all of the deliveries made on time every day. If you have any particular concerns, you can e-mail and maybe together we can try to work out your problem.
Hope this helps!!
al o.
AL Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Sitting Here wondering in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 15:18:45
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.91)
al o.
Al OStapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Twitchin Index Finger in , Ohi-er, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 15:35:40
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.91)
Your UPS advice is notable, but...
Why the Hell would I continue to do business with any organization that requires such efforts to fix screwups on their part? FedEx makes very few of these mistakes that are common to UPS.
My folks have a package and shipping business and their view is that UPS has become very lazy and uncaring over the past ten years. UPS has gone from a company that cared and took pride beyond everyone else, to a company that can't seem to give a damn.
The best advice when shipping with UPS is to ship the package next or first day air, and insure the package for a ridiculous amount, such as $10,000, so that UPS and its juvenile package handlers take notice not to break it. It seems loss prevention is only serious if UPS has to pay out.
My advice, don't use UPS. They really suck and are getting worse. Why award them with even more of your business?
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 16:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.7.123)
Hey guys, good to be back, this might get a touch long, but it's high power and sniping related big time, so relax or skip it, your call.
But first: barrel sucking? PUHLESE. Patron 'Lito's right on track with the scavaging explanation, so if you just try to wait exactly one 270 degree cam lobe width at 7000 rpm (milliseconds), then pop the bolt, you should clear out ALL the bad gas ;-)
168M BDC dials with 175's. Just did it for a full week (and I mean FULL!), they SUCK!!! 100 yards is right on (by definition), and so is 200. You're a full minute off at 300 and it goes south from there. Thanks to Patron Mike, I'm gonna try that 30-06 cam, should be a hell of a lot closer. I'll let you know after I try it. Anyone surprised to hear you can get a full 2700 fps from a M1A with 175SMK's as a "light" load?
Al O: good to see you back again my friend, but I have to disagree about UPS. My "overnight" from Eagle came 5 days after the order (sent off same day, before noon), and all I was told was that "I wasn't in the delivery area, it was going to a residence, and I didn't pay extra for Saturday delivery". From here on out, I'm going with Fed Ex. Why pay for overnight delivery and get it (and poor excuses) 5 days later??
Patron Dave: Sounds like a REALLY cool stint. Love to see it, congrats!
Jerry Rice: Man, you make a hell of a rifle! That thing just SHOOTS! I'm not speaking as a man who owns one, just a man that tried to keep up with another man shooting one of yours. That "can" is way cool too. If you're interested, the guy shooting your rifle took the top shooter slot for the class.
Now for the good stuff. James Jarrett and Mike Miller held one HELL of a class! That James is 100% "the real deal" and as advertised, but Mike sure the heck isn't. If you listen to him, he should be spending half his time in a wheelchair with all these melted down ginsu knives in him and such. NOT! Able bodied and then some! Just about the time I was considering rolling over and having a coronary from the belly crawling, I thought that Mike just "MIGHT" be inclined to save my life and do CPR. So I kept crawling :-) Really though, I've had instructors that were SUPER at shooting, but lousy as teachers. And of course, vice versa. Both of these guys were great at both DOING and TEACHING. Heck, Mike made a shot with a stinkin' CAR iron sighted at a range you wouldn't beleive if I told you. I wouldn't beleive it if I hadn't seen it with my own glassed eye. Both of these guys are top flight, and gave me WAY more than my monies worth. Don't figure it was planned this way, but after building my ego all week with one round hits WAY out there, the wind was doing squirly things (double switching and then some!), and gave us a reality check. At least we all know our limitations now. I'm HIGHLY endorsing the school, and advising everyone that if they want a GREAT class, it's here. I've never been to Storm, due to that east coast location, so I can't compare it (honest), but I can also honestly say that I AM going to return, and further this "education". After I get in better condition.
And lastly: the "raggedy assed M1A" HA! Before going out to the class, I shot a 1/2 MOA group with it during load development. While at the class (recorded, I kept the target), I shot a 1/3 MOA target (3 round group) as the best group of mine while out there. It kept up with the bolt guns all day, every day. Some more than others ;-) Beleive it or not, I didn't miss a gong (one shot hits) until we got back past 675 yards, except for once. Memo to others, always reset your elevation / windage knobs :-( Before we left though, Patron Mike had us hitting it at 850, and yes, that M1A did just that. Even made a "convert", "beleiver" or whatever you wanna call it. Wouldn't have done it without some GREAT instruction though. Anyone shooting against me, looking down the line, saying "eh, he's only got a M-14" is in for some real education. These things can be made to SHOOT. Caked up with dirt and sand as it is from stalking excercises, never misfed or had any other hang up either. GREAT RIFLE! If anyone wants this smith's name, just let me know. He makes GREAT M1A's at a tremendously low price. I recommend him in a heartbeat too.
To James and Mike: Thanks guys, great class.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
figuring out cammo for, Utah, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 18:34:51
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.207)
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 18:43:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.185)
I don't have anywhere near the hours behind the optics that the Folks
like Rod, Kent, Rick, Pablito, Mike, and other shooters have - However
- looking at this tracking knob issue from a plain mechanical standpoint
- I don't know if you'll ever get a dial that will track excactly. Think
about it - the temp, humidity, altitude - ya all know the variables - effect
the strike of the round.
Looks to me like the best you can come up with is a general setting
for each distance - then maybe tweek that setting depending on conditions
at that distance. I'll bet this is the area where the scopes with the target
turrets really shine.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 20:30:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
I am contemplating the purchase of either a REM 700 BDL .338 ultra mag or 700 BDL SS .338 ultra mag. I would value any comments and feedback, positive and negative, from those who have experience with these rifles. The rifle would mainly be used for long range target shooting. Thanks.
Apollo
apollo <apollo81@iglou.com>
USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 20:39:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.255.236.122)
I'm not so sure about the Baretta 92F being dropped by the US Armed Forces. The primary reason for adopting it in the first place was standardization among NATO forces (ie. we forced 5.56mm on them and they took our .45s away). Anyway, if there is a reason to drop the 92F I seriously doubt it has to do with the slide release issue (which was always fun to show MPs) and more to do with slide endurance if anything. There have been plenty of reported slide failures, dangerous ones at that, enough so that at least when I was in SF we had to log all of the rounds we fired and return the pistols stateside to be swapped out after a set amount of rounds were fired through them.
As you pointed out though, SOCOM is fielding (and has been in the
past) .45 cal pistols to operators. This is just SOCOM, not all armed services
across the board.
Brandon <brandon@computercafe.com>
California, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 21:36:16 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.180.87.138)
al o.
Al Ostapowicz <aaostapowicz@nls.net>
Still Wondering here in , Ohio, USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 23:02:26
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.144.4.99)
Byron Faulk <bfaulk2@bellsouth.net>
Lafayette, La., USA - Sunday, June 11, 2000 at 23:44:38 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.78.8.140)
Your company espirit de corps is commendable but to recommend shipping overnight in order to get your merchandise delivered in a safe manner is in itself an admission of internal difficulties. UPS has a history of high turnover and relatively low job to labor pay for the sorter and loader - it's hard work for the money. My best friend worked for UPS as a supervisor before he became a LEO and I couldn't believe the stuff he told me. UPS almost lost the Gateway computer contract because of theft and abnormally high merchandise damage. If you work there then you can tell us all about the internal memorandum circulated regarding "special treatment" of Gateway PC boxes.
I, like most consumers, base my customer loyalty on personal experience
and believe me this was the last straw - I will pay extra to avoid shipping
UPS in the future. Explain how a chrome vanadium steel ring was that damaged
in a well packed box marked fragile. I say again, marked fragile....Oh,
and adult signature too....
breakpointx <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 00:42:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.60.57.12)
That is how my weekend went anyways, some good old fashioned country
boy fun. Now I get to clean, clean, clean this evening away.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 01:08:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.2.137)
UPS usually dumps it on the porch in plain view of all the nose pickers that inhabit the AO and thats it.
I think some of you guys get too wrapped about the turrets on the Leupold Tactical scopes like the M3LR. One turret is really all you need regardless of caliber since the LR also has graduations in moa. Just a comment.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 01:55:00 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.148)
Has anyone had any experience, good or bad, with Lapua .308 ammo?
A shop here in New Zealand has a few cases of ex NZ Army Lapua sniper ammo loaded with the 185 grain D46 bullet at a very good price.
I've used a small amount in the past but only under 300m in my Rem 700 PSS.
How does it go out to 1000 yards? I was thinking about trying it for the NZ Police shooting champs later this year in the F class.
The price works out at US$225 for a 600 round case so I will get some either way. I just wanted any feedback on the ammo and its performamce.
Any comments?
Sniff,
(thinking about buying more than one case for when his TBA M40A1
arrives.)
Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
Auckland, New Zealand - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 04:22:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 202.154.130.34)
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 13:14:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.193.197.25)
Scope cams,
You guys are getting to involved with the yardage numbers on the
cams instead of the MOA numbers on the bottom of the cam. The MOA numbers
are more accurate for your application and as Gooch said it doesn't make
any difference which cam you use, just use the MOAs at the botton or if
you think you need the yardage numbers for quick shooting then do as I
did and paint the top half and scribe your own numbers in above the correct
MOA marking. Its still only a "Quick" reference though and I still have
to adjust at times depending on conditions.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 14:32:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
On the cam thing... Bravo's scope is a MK4-M3, and there is no MOA
scale on the bottom... just 1, 2, 3, 4.to 10, and the cam is much smaller
that the M3-LR... so here's no room to write.
My thoughts are, if you chose to go with a one turn M3 series scope,
you are giving up a lot of the flexability of the M1 family, or of the
common target scopes.
You're giving it up for the sole reason of a BDC cam for quick shooting at largish targets at long range.
If you match the bullet BC, and the velocity, then the variables for weather and humidity, are minor, and even if ignored, you will still be on a 24"x48" steel target at long range. But if you are already off, and have to have a look-up taped to the stock, then there's a good reason to make that fatal mistake under the pressure of a match (any match).
If you are in the service, and are given a rifle, scope, and ammo, you have no choice but to make it work, and make notes of any tracking errors... but if you're not in the service, and it's your own rifle, scope and ammo... and have access to different brands, or can roll your own, it's just too easy to make it track right, if you put the pieces together right.
Bravo's rifle is shooting the 175 SMK at a bit over 2700, but his cam is for the 168, and at long range, it's not even close... maybe 6 or 8 clicks. The 30-06 cam for the MK4-M3 uses a bullet with the identical BC as the 175 SMK, at 2700... so at worst, he will be maybe 1 click off... but... he'd still "clank" the lady at long range, with no compensation.
No, they aren't perfect, but my approach is to have the equipment as close the the "True" center line of performance, before I start making compensations.
I wouldn't start off with the wrong cam, and then try to make it work.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 15:07:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
On the BDC issue. I played with the 30-06 cam, with the 175's at slightly over 2700fps. The shots were very close. About 1MOA high at 600 yards and that could be strickly the elevation(7200 feet)we were at. So it stays on the rifle. Tracked much more closely than the 175 cam set for 2600 fps.
Bravo, no your buddy, came in second, even with the extra 30 points the cross fire gave him. We will make sure that no one ever gets credit for rounds they did not fire again. Paul only droppped 94 total points out of a possible 700. Wind kicked everyones butt at 850 yards.
Rick, I shot the XM107 and it holds 1moa at 600 yards with Arizonia Ammo's Match stuff. About 1.5 moa with PMC Ball. It was very impressive. About 50 rounds is all anyone wants to shoot per day with a 50 though. It will give you a hell of a Headache.
On the muzzle devices all will give a NVD signature. I did not get a chance to play much with shooting at night while using the NVDs while at NM(Too much good beer to drink)
Col. Dave L. I am very glad to see a nice guy getting something good. Say hello to Rick when you get there.
Everyone shot very well in the end. I hope to see most of you back
for the next class
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 15:35:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
64.12.105.152)
brandx <brandx375@aol.com>
Drizzly, Wa, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 17:13:09 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.201.181)
De Oppresso Liber
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 17:52:05 (ZULU) (your host
address: 32.97.88.100)
A george Gardner rifle was used by a guy with little or no rifle experience prior. That one shot many 1/2moa 600 yard groups at the end. Pretty darn good for a professional let alone a beginner!
Stan/Bravo, you are a great guy. I hope you make it to the next class. Be warned that I may mug you for the M1A though. A man can never have enough great weapons.
My earlier post said you can see the flash with NVD's from Jerry's
device. Just like one with a full suppressor on it. However you can not
see past about 15 yards with the bare eye. When you are down range past
300 yards it sounds strange and is very hard to pick where the sound came
from. Sounds like it came from everywhere to me. A great device
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 18:45:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.176)
Woulda, coulda, shoulda, .....
The M3s one moa elevation ajustments aren't worth a damn for bulls.
Dan <cantdance@noload.com>
USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 22:52:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.17)
And while I'm out here, I'd like to publicly recognise the great staff out there, RB and Bob. Those guys were great to us the whole time, and a LOT of help. If I could change anything about the school at all, I'd change absolutely nothing. Well, maybe less bumpy rides ;-)
Mike: bad luck. Found out it's not "lawful" for me to ship you another
case of the good stuff. It's always on tap though, and you're more than
welcome! That goes for anyone else out there from "the class" too!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Grinnin ear to ear, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 22:58:26 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.152)
Hondo
Hondo <Hondo852@tmlp.com>
USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 23:30:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.117.43.225)
We might Monday morning quarterback the scores now that it is over, but all of our shooting went from good to very good.
No paid commercial here, but the rifle that Jerry Rice made for me
certainly helped me blast Xs! As soon as I got back I ordered another one
in .308!
I had a fantastic time, learned a great deal, and met some wonderful
people. I also met some unique characters as well!
Stan, thanks again for all of the brew that you shared so readily and without hesitation!
Michael
Michael Sheehan <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Monday, June 12, 2000 at 23:36:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
Thanks in advance,
Martin
Martin O. <omartin@tca.net>
Bryan, TX, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 00:07:26 (ZULU) (your host
address: 208.180.4.224)
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 00:25:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.155)
On the M3LR not being able to reach 1,00-yards: Shoot a faster round?
(haha).
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 00:26:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.4.14)
Dave
David <btn4ch@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 00:34:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
165.166.45.166)
Michael Sheehan: Hey man, any time, any where. Having people enjoy "the brew" is my enjoyment too. Especially when I'm partaking too (HA!). Bet you couldn't tell that I stomped the grains with my own feet ;-) It was great shooting with you, a true sportsman. Besides, I didn't get "cover" in my pack!
Martin O (Rock the good Ag): I used a Blackhawk lace on cheek piece
for the class (see the bad comment to Hondo above) and it worked, but JUST
BARELY. If I had more intelligence than a rock placed in a pack, I'd have
taken Dangerous Dan's great advice and 100 MPH taped that sucker directly
to the stock. More power to you if you can find a way to make it stick
(I think 'Lito is on the right track), and stay there. You mean there's
no reward for heckling some of Rudders Rangers that would pay for the stock?
HA! Gig 'em and down one at the Chicken for me.
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Working for strict constitutional interpretations for the, USA - Tuesday,
June 13, 2000 at 04:54:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.190)
Maybe I'm lucky but I receintly traded a lever gun for a Tiger carbine.
My first use of the rifle in daylight consisted of trying to hit coke can
sized targets out to 350 yards at about a 10 degree asmuth. I found the
BDC windage adjustments to be quite accurate however The 4x scope leaves
a lot to be desired. Being the owner of a 10x42 Hendsholdt mil dot scope
and a few other pieces of fine glass I guess I'm spoiled on German and
Austrian optics. I had some degree of success and was relativly pleased
with the accuracy potential. Next came the trip to the public range and
benching the rifle (from a cradle position) I was not at all pleased with
the results and the groups were about 3 M.O.A. I suspected something was
wrong and next deceided to clamp my left hand down on the forearm. To my
surprise I achieved very "Tight" groups. How tight you may ask? How about
.79" average at 100 yards with Afgany 82-83 vintage fodder. The tightest
group was .67" No folks I am not lying... I was also able to hit a 12"
gong with regularity in moderate wind at 300 yards and clamping down could
also hit the one out at 400. I am going to try handloads next and perhaps
a heavier bullet. The ruskie ones fired wieghed out at about 148.7 grains...
I suspect the shorter barrel on the tiger helps the harmonics...
Maybe I just got lucky....Maybe I'll not be able to duplicate the
results again and then again maybe so...
JGT
P.S if anyone knows where I might be able to obtain an SVD flash
supressor please forward me the information.
J. Tupper <Gonzo1xp@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 06:09:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.27)
This is an exellent rifle. However you are ripped off if you buy it in the SSG3000 configuration. Go to SIG's international site, www.sigarms.ch, and take a look at the Sauer 200TR. The rifles are identical. The only difference is that the laminated wood stock on the SSG3000 is painted black. The 200TR should cost less than half the price of the SSG3000. In Norway it cost less than 1/3... I'd buy a Sauer 200TR with four quickchange barrels( 2 in .308 and 2 in 6.5X55 ), Sako TRG 22 scopemount and a Leupold Tactical scope. This should cost about as much as a clean SSG3000.
The Sauer 200TR will never go out of production as it has been selected as the standard national targetrifle in Sweden, Denmark and Norway. Sauer has sold tens of thousands of these rifles in Scandinavia in the last 6-7 years.
PS: Heym also make dropin matchbarrels for the Sauer: http://www.vapensmia.no/Lop/
Price: ca. USD200.-
TorF
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 09:56:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
193.212.93.33)
SCOPE Alert Immediate Action Needed
This is it!!! The New York State legislature is scheduled to recess
this
Wednesday, June 14, 2000.
The promise coming from Gov. Pataki's office is that he will pull
out all
the stops this week to get at least some of his gun control package
passed. SCOPE been warning you for several months now that your
gun
rights are on the line. Well "D" Day is here. Please call your state
senator as well the senators listed below. Even if you've already
called
it's imperative that you call again. Additionally, take this alert
to
work, share it with friends and relatives and urge them to call
immediately.
Your calls again, are desperately needed! Please call your state
senator
and senate
majority leader Sen. Joseph Bruno, (518)455-3191, and tell them
to oppose
S.7033 and any plan to limit your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Additionally,
contact Sen. Ronald Stafford, (518)455-2811, chairman of the finance
committee, and Sen. Charles Fuschillo, (518) 455-3341, chairman
of the
consumer protection committee and urge them to oppose any gun control
legislation in their committees.
For more information consult the June edition of SCOPE Firing Lines
or
visit the SCOPE web site
at, http://www.SCOPEny.org SCOPE's web site can also help you with
information on who your state senator is.
Most importantly please make your calls now and urge others to do
the
same. Even if you've called
already please call again!
Courtesy of the Shooters Committee On Political Education, SCOPE,
Inc.
PO Box 602,
Tonawanda, NY 14150-0602. http://www.SCOPEny.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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mda <shawnabell@msn.com>
Buffalo, New York, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 13:57:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.38)
Brewmaster I am saddened to hear you can not ship the majic brew to me.
I have to totally agree with Gooch on the Badger Rings and bases. Nothing better exists!
Have a great day guys.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 15:09:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.193.178)
J. Tupper
It's good to see someone who dosen't hate the Tiger. I got one just
because I ran into a deal I couldn't say no to. When I took it to the range
it shocked me. It hangs around the MOA mark all day hot or cold. My Comm
bloc fanatic buddy has a Russian SVD and my tiger out shoots it hands down.
You may be right about the barrel length. If you run across any, try the
Bulgarian (I think) ammo. It's got a grey lacqured case and silver nose
marking. It shoots well in mine for the cost (a lot cheaper than the Norma)
and the BDC seems to match close. If you find any SVD furniture or flash
hider sets let me know too.
joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 16:08:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.195.56)
Sniper Country hats and T's just went on sale.
The Sniper Country PX will be open in a few days. I still do not have a shopping cart set up so you can either snail mail or email an order in. Products at this time are the entire Eagle Industries line, IOR optics, Proline training and HS Precision. More will follow as I find the time. Price will, I hope, please you greatly as I am keeping them as low as I can and still jusitfy the labor. Will be accepting Visa and Mastercards.
Next topic: LR cams. Man, how many times do we need to say it? This is a NON-issue on the LR M3. As pointed out by myself way above, Gooch and other further down the list, don't get hung up on this. Just use the lower MOA markings. You are never going to find a scope that has a range digit that tracks perfectly so why sweat this with a scope that actually provides moa clicks??? Just remark it! There is a lot of angst over nothing. Nuff said!!!
I also agree with Gooch on the Badger base issue with the LR series, but lets face it, if you ain't got the budget, you ain't got the budget. If that is the case, try Baer tapered bases or try the rings with the offset inserts as mentioned somewhere above. Burris. At some point you have to balance income with intent. If you are competing for fun, don't get divorced trying to build the ultimate rifle! ;-)
If you are doing this for real, then get a loan. No excuse for second string equipment in the field. At the same time, balance out what you really need with what you want. The Baer bases work, especially if you are not using your rifle in a full out military manner (definition: treating your gear like it is a shuttle cock in a badmitten game). Hell, even standard high quality rings and bases can work if you're particular use is limited to 500 or less yards and you ain't dragging the rig. If this is a hobby, keep it with in your means and don't worry that the next guy may have twice as much into his rig as you do yours.
Last thing. I do not get the complaint about the LR M3 at 100 or 200 yards. Never had a problem with it at these ranges. It is dead on zero @ 100 on my rifle. I can see that it can not be as precise as the LR M1 at these ranges, but this didn't prove to be the case, in this instance. Point of aim is point of impact @ 100. Maybe I jsut lucked out. Now, that isn't to say you'd want it for LE use when the LR M1 is available! But it will work for semi-precision shooting at 100 yards. After all, at this range, how much wind correction do you need? ;-) (that'll get a good argument going!!!)
LAter.
Scott
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 17:00:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.34)
School officials have said that they haven't decided
about starting a rifle range at the school yet. (Where
the school is located, they could easily set up a safe
range).
I think that they want to see how much flak they will
get over the issue. I'm going to send them a letter
telling them that I think it's a great idea starting
the JROTC program. I'm also going to mention to them
the benefits (discipline, concentration, etc) of air
rifle competitions. If they start an air rifle/pistol
team, a lot of those kids might take up rimfire or
centerfire competitions when they get older. Getting
young people interested in shooting sports is the best
way of ensuring that the torch is passed to the next
generation.
The anti's in the community probably wouldn't think
twice about students shooting air rifles (hey, it's
just a bb gun, right?). Then it's a small step to
.22's.
If anyone wishes to voice their suport, the address is Elsie Allen
High School 599 Bellevue Rd, Santa Rosa CA 95407
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
rohnert park, ca, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 17:20:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 204.162.86.225)
Being the none-too-proud owner of the reasonably famous _700PSS From Hell (TM)_, I can comiserate with people who are less than satisfied with their 700Ps. Been there. For a nominaly turn-key rifle that is supposed to work out of the box, mine was certainly a dissapointment. However, last I checked a 1/2 MOA rifle was a pretty kick-ass piece of gear. Mine would'nt lay a finger on 2 MOA before recrowing, then I could never predict where on the paper it was going to group from day-to-day. A milling machine and some MarineTex cured that. So, now every halfway-decent magazine length load of Varget under a Matchking I throw at it will go .6 MOA if I hold my mouth right. Mmm. Not quite the holy grail but I have to say that it aint bad. I imagine than its better than a lot of M24s and M40A1s out there in the hands of troops do with M852 or M118LR and they seem to be happy enough with their gear. So, I have to make a decision on wether or not to spend $500+ more crapola for the rifle in order to get that last 1/10 MOA, or do I start shooting it and find out what it will do with me behind it under real-world conditions. Actualy, my starting grad school has kinda' made that decision for me :) *BUT*, even without finacial constraints it is still probably the wiser move for me to make. Hell, I havent heve lapped the lugs yet! Gota' do that next...
In other words, dont worry. Be happy. Shoot the damn thing.
Bayer/Badger:
I split the difference and am most happy with my particular set up:
The Bayer two-piece bases and the Badger rings. I went this route becasue
I bought them at different times and in different states of financial security.
What the hell. They seem to work very well together. Just need to find
the time to convert them over to 8-40 screws. Next time it comes out of
the stock, I hope.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 17:32:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Question though: how much weight could I cut by fluting a 16"?
Mike: as long as you're teaching, I'm learning. Look for some "flavored
water" coming via fed ex.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
big 'ol grin still!, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 17:56:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.9.223.170)
My rifle arrived, all rebuilt and back from the shop of The Tactical Ordinance Corporation, and I must say, they do damn fine work. I can't wait to take my new sootin' iron out to the range.
To Mr. Gooch and Mr. Coburn, thanks for all the info you shared with me when I was in the building phase, I appreciate it greatly.
Semper Fi!
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 21:58:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.174)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 13, 2000 at 22:36:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Mistah Rogers: you got that one right! I recall reading something
where the guy (Fred's in SGN) shot a M1A for more rounds (like 3 or 4 times
as many) as conventional wisdom says should be run through a barrel. He
said the throat gauge just went in, all the way and then some. Still good
accuracy at the 200 and 300. Seems they just get loose at range, then work
themselves closer. Now THAT'S a design!
Brew Master vo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
making more beer while it's legal in the, USA - Wednesday, June 14,
2000 at 00:10:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.239)
Jerry - I think a week or two should be enough to conclude to video, going to go bang away at the 900m tomorrow -weather should be good.
Dave: Congrats - this was the reason for your fear-fallin awhile back?
I was away (at least from the computer) following Patron 'Lito's
footsteps [about two legged birds], this one actually came and watched
me shoot (mind you I sucked)
Popped some rounds from my FN and G3 this weekend, reminded me that
gas guns are fun, not serious (ducks-just a small flame)
Bravo - Raid not nec. I got it while you were playing with Mikey - mind you maybe I should hook up w/ you anyway seems your brew is becoming as well thought of as your '21
RE: Badger Bases and rings the best
-in Dec. following Sinister Dave's advice I contacted Richard Near
(Near Mfg. of Kindersly Sask. Canada) and had him send me a 45Moa one piece
base, his work is fabulous and I think the best available. I use the Badger
rings (Tony W. those Barretts are just to big) and think there great, but
for the base I think I'd give the Near one the edge
Anyway I don't think I can irritate anyone else, so I'll pack it
in for the night.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 01:13:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.129.48)
I also followed "Sinister" Dave's advice, and bought one of the NEAR one piece 20 MOA Stainless steel bases, and it's terrific!
I was tempted to get one of the 45 MOA jobbies for the B&L Tac, but I wouldn't be able to use the MK4-M3, which is going to be the main scope for this gun.
I'm going to make "Tapered Rings" to go on the base for the B&L, so I can use up that whole 145 moa of elevation... I had a lap cut down to .020 undersized, so I could use wet-n-dry Silicone Carbide on the rings, and make the taper in the inside... It may work out well (I'm hoping), or it may be a $150 fiasco ;(
What are you using the 45 moa bases for??
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 01:31:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
On the hearing protection, I am not "in the field" I just do this
for fun. We have a gunshop located in the county with a 100 yd range behind
the store. Needless to say I do quite a bit of shooting with test firing
guns and plinking of my own. I have several pair of earmuffs and some electronic
muffs, BUT... the best so far is a pair of ESP ( electronic shooters protection
) hearing aids... Yes that's right hearing aids. It is adjustable to a
person's hearing loss, every one has some... I can't remember what the
db gain is but if your stalking and a tree rat jumps down into some dry
leaves no less than 75 yds. you will mess your pants! And the best part
is It reduces noises over 85-90 db... It don't block them out, it just
reduces it. I wear them alot, they are fitted to your ear canal and are
just the ticket for competition shooting. Check with your local audiologist.
Burris rings,
I just received my 30mm High rings, came with concentric and eccentric inserts. according to my bore scope the .010 offset gave me about 20 moa adjustment... just might be the ticket. Plan to sight it in tomorrow will let ya'll know how it does..
good shooting,
Brock
Brock <anthony@grnco.net>
Paragould, AR, USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 03:05:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.60.10.99)
Here is a picture of the M40A3 and the DMR
http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/sniperrifles.jpg
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 04:07:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.153)
AIRBORNE !!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 10:12:01 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.214.117.128)
The Armalite is my favorite as they offer a lifetime warranty that they seem more than willing to stand behind. For what you get I feel it is a better gun than the Stoner. The Stoner suffers many of the same problems as the AR10, it's a combination of factory screw ups and a need to do further design research, tuning, and tweaking.
My AR10 has a relatively short barrel throat on it which forces me to handload most all of my ammo if I want any decent accuracy. Factory loads just shoot like dog crap from my gun, about 2.5-3 inch groups for 5 shots. When I roll my own ammo I am rewarded with MOA or less 5 shot groups at 100 yards with some impressive cheater 3 shot groups of around 3/8 inch. Not bad for a gun that isn't a freefloat configuration, it is a standard handguard flattop with 20 inch chrome lined barrel. I'm shooting off the bench now and haven't tried going prone from a bipod yet.
My gun eats up 165grn Nosler BalisticTips along with 180grn Sierra MatchKings, though the things certainly don't shoot close to the same zero. Anyone else notice that Nosler shows a higher BC for the BalisticTip than they do for the new 168grn J4 competition bullet? I'll try the 168s but I don't expect them to perform better than the BalisticTips I'm using already.
Good thing about the short throat on my gun is that I can load accurate rounds to magazine length in my rifle. I can't take advantage of full case capacity but it is nice to load something and not have to worry about magazine length and if it will fit and feed.
What Bravo said about, using one of these guns about 10yrs down the road is another accurate representation. The M1A type guns are at the top of their game as most any kind of trick or experiment has been pulled to try and get the utmost accuracy from those rigs. With proper attention to detail the AR style 308s are equally accurate while maybe being a bit more easy to maintain.
POS6000 is in some cases a very accurate depiction of these rifles, the guns haven't earned a very good rep. yet I can say that. Consider that it is a relatively new design, not historically(considering the old AR10s) but rather new meaning production life.
My personal rifle is showing good performance but it still is in it's infancy with only about 800 total rounds shot from it over the past year I've owned it. I haven't shot nearly enough groups with it to learn where the design really begins to fail or if it is gonna fail.
Bravo, email me and tell me more about the AR you're building up
for CQB. One of the custom uppers I want built would include a cut down
DCM tube for freefloating a carbine length barrel but allowing the use
of standard handguards still, I've got this SureFire 500A that is tits.
I also have the 17 pound AR from hell for taking out the local squirrel
population. What twist, ammo, sights are you gonna use for your CQB setup?
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 15:49:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.1.185)
To get one you'd have to get someone from B coy 3 PPCLI drunk and
steal them while he's passed out. But in likelyhood some fat slob working
in the QM already has 6 or 7 sets in size big,fat that he/she is hoking
at the local surplus store -- Same think that happened to our Gortex issues:
We're in the field and all the non-inf track toad,lazy leg types are sitting
behind the counter wearing it and telling the troops their isn't enought
to issue.
NO BITTERNESS HERE!
Then our illustrius Bde Comd comes out and gives troops shit for
wearing Danners because they weren't authorized - WHile he is head to toe
in Issue Gortex (yes You MGen (then Bgen) Cox who they then made morale
office LOL)
Must go; bitterness overwhelming me
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 16:13:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.136.229)
Pat is dead on about sniper team composition. I cannot imagine ANY department, unit or supervisor deploying a one-man sniper. That is movie nonsense. LE ops are WAY different than military ops and the vicarious liability concerning target confirmation and green light status are huge issues. I do a lot of expert witness involving police tactics and procedures. If I received a case involving the deployment of a one man sniper unit in a LE environment, I would tell the defendants to settle as quickly as possible because if I was put on the stand, I would tear them apart.
Good to see lots of old friends still on the site. I've been off the site for awhile.
Thanks to all the students that participated in the recent course in New Mexico. You did well lads. Some folks do need further education in teamwork however.
Mike S: Your post was so "delicate".
Mike M: We need to abuse the students more:-) You did a great job.
De Oppresso Liber,
James R. Jarrett
Director, American Shooting Academy
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 17:33:07 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.15.218.175)
Can anyone tell me the best process to painting a stainless steel
barrel. The rifle I want is not in stock anywhere, but it comes with a
stainless steel barrel. I want to know how do I get a permanent black paint
job on this barrel.
Tony <tonylongshot@aol.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 17:49:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.191)
Tony,
If there is anyone who can "Powder Coat" your barrel that holds
up pretty well. I had it done to my 260 and its 2 years old now with over
2000 rounds through it and a barrel cutting of 4" off the rear and screwed
back on another action and still looks great. I know lito' is going to
try the new Teflon process and will let us know how that works, I have
heard good things about it too.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 19:14:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Vern
Vernon Hamner <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
Houston, TX, USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 21:49:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.73.225.124)
James(Dad), I would have worked them harder but you would not let me. LOL Glad to see you on here my friend. This place can always use someone of your knowledge and abilities. It is my pleasure to work with you. That talk about me moving out there has tortured me since I left and returned to this land of Calif. Some day I will take you up on it. A few more Ginsu Knives for joints and you have a deal.
Seriously, James and I will be doing some more classes together in the future. I will let you know when. Where will be New Mexico. If you have any special interests such as 50 BMG, Long Range Rifle, Sniper, Pistol, Carbine or shotgun please contact me. When it looks like I have enough students for a class we will set dates.
Undude/Junior to James/ AKA Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 22:36:02 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.200.23)
Matt
Matt <oxensales@uscorp.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 14, 2000 at 22:54:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.160.33.156)
Mike: you wanna teach more? I'll sign up right now for a CQB out there any time between this coming Carlos and next years Carlos. Between you and James, I forgot what the word "vacation" meant. But I leaned what the words "hooked" and "learning" meant. Oh, and fed-ex fell through. They actually wanted to LOOK at what they were insuring?!?! AS IF! Still, I can send you the dehydrated version, just add water, wait 4 weeks, drink ;-)
B: Douglas: You mean I have to PLAN this thing? Heck, just figured
something lighter than a M-25, no optics, uh, 16"? Really though, don't
know too much about it. I've only had an issue '16A2 and a personal semi
CAR. The receivers are on the way to my smith, who basically said "oh,
a blaster" and after a touch of qualifications said "oh, a blaster that'll
hold 'em in 1 inch at 400. No problems". See! I don't NEED to know too
much. Yet. ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
starting to plan an AR in, Utah, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 00:42:15
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.162)
Thanks
Craig <crhanson@telusplanet.net>
USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 02:40:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
161.184.21.108)
What recommendation, if any can you give it's near twin M1 ?.
Any negatives, I have been trying to figure out the best scope in that price range, w/out having to go to the MK4's.
any advice would be appreciated/ and / or other recommendations.
Thank you kind sirs!
Bravo 7.62, thank you for your E Mail, covered all the bases , I
appreciate it!
TSHOES(Terry) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 03:58:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.201)
Mike Miller made a reference to "his/her own rifle" recently, which lead me to wonder: are there any female snipers out there in law enforcement land? I know that historicaly they have popped up in all sorts of military conflicts over the past century, from Stalingrad to Bosnia, and I know that currenly the US military has none. On the military side, would bringing women into this role be any more or less difficult than any other combat arms MOS?
Just curious about what people think.
Tony of the Stainless Steel barrel:
One option is Brownells Baking Laquer, a spray-on and bake paint
that has given me good service for any number of applications. All you
need is an improvised ocen of some sort that will hold your barreld reciever.
For quick touch-ups in the field, might I suggest a large black Sharpie...
:)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, in the hotter'n all hell state of, SC, USA - Thursday, June
15, 2000 at 04:37:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)
Female LEO snipers:
I understand there is an operational female LEO sniper working around Dalles, TX someplace. It is true that female snipers have been employed in military theatres from the time of the Greek City State wars when they were used as archers to the battlefields of Viet Nam. That said; they were the exception not the rule.
Women have no place in the combat arms, nor do they belong in LE patrol vehicles. I started my LE career with the LAPD after my first tour with Special Forces special ops in Viet Nam. LAPD then was a police department, not a social service agency. No women, high standards, few minorities, no corruption. Now look at it. Duh!
There are females that can do anything men can do, and some do it better. They are not, in my experience, the sort of people that I want to share a patrol car or a foxhole with. This is men's business. Let's keep it that way.
As a 6th degree black belt (all that is pretty meaningless anyway -- bigger, stronger, faster usually wins), I have gotten my ass kicked plenty. When my backup arrived, I did not want to see some girlish butt waving her baton, I wanted the biggest goons on the department rolling up. Guys the size of Mike Miller were most welcome indeed.
Now I know that some of you lads are part of the new, tolerant, and progressive generation and believe all the bullshit about female equality that has been shoved down your throat since you were born. Most of us oldtimers that have had the opportunity to fight in real wars and police the streets as law enforcement officers don't buy it and want nothing to do with it. It really doesn't matter because we won't have to have a female as a partner and instead of "COO" (consideration of others) as the guiding military management principle, we come from the tradition that says: Never leave a comrade behind and our job was to seek out, identify, close with and destroy the enemy.
Delta One Zero on E&E avoiding incoming and enemy patrols:-)
Strength and Honor,
James
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
Phoenix, AZ, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 05:22:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.16.193.37)
If you get an accurate AR15 setup then I am almost 100% certain it will turn into a favorite when shooting at the range(don't all accurate guns end up being favorites?) Accurate ARs are just a pleasure to shoot.
As a duty weapon I'm not sure where you are gonna spend your efforts, I'm not sure a CQB setup needs above and beyond type accuracy if it is in any way going to effect reliability. My tight chambered(and accurate) custom gun loves to blow primers on Federal(hate that stuff in semis) ammo and it is a consideration I have to make with ammo selection. Ofcourse finding what ammo is totally reliable in these(and personal gun) guns has proven to be a wise choice.
I am in the process of going LEO currently(background check, whoo-hoo!, CHP recruit here), when I finally go LEO the weapon I choose for a duty gun will be a far cry from what I am using now. My biggest concerns will be that it is compact and light, SP1 barrel profiles are the ticket for light weight that is certain. I wonder what the department stance would be on an aftermarket trigger? I'm using a JP trigger in my custom gun and it is tuned down to about 3 1/2 pounds. For a duty gun I'd use the standard springs for a 5-6 pound pull and I'd put a tiny bit of creep into the trigger, compared to the standard AR15 triggers I've encountered the new trigger is a big improvement.
I wasn't sure if you were going to stick to a A2 configuration or
if you were considering some kind of red dot sight. Since I am competing
with my ARs I use flattops so that I can use scope, red dot, or iron sights
depending on the type of class or course I'm gonna shoot in.
For CQB ammo I wouldn't be a bit surprised if departments are turning over to the 223 loaded with 40-55grn balistic tip style frangible bullets. The dang Vmax, Amax, Nosler, Sierra BlitzKing are all great bullets with little chance of over penetration once they encounter a target. Even plain jane 55grn FMJ is being shown to be a performer over 9mm entry guns from what I've been reading.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 06:54:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.1.139)
Regards
Ron Hack
Ron Hack, MSgt, USAF Retired <rhack@mosquitonet.com>
North Pole, Alaska, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 08:26:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.156.37.21)
Jimmy Jarrett is setting off a real shitstorm again.
I don't know ALL the answers, but I judge people by their actions, attitudes, and manners. Sex and Skin Color don't tell a persons capabilities. EVER!
Deena Wigger and Libby Callahan are two folks I have met that I would not wish to have shooting at me. Libby knows a bit about shooting or so I hear, Deena too.
Then theres that Monez Chick, and Marsha Beasley - The 10+ year coach
of the WV Mountaineer US Collegiate US Champion Shooting Teams, and a boatload
more from Colorado Springs..........
Don't blame the line for the command decisions. LAPD has bad apples, they are everywhere. We got them here in By-Gawd
Its not the good folks its the corrupt and we're seeing the decline of the "Roman Empire" is less than 100 years.
I'd rather have a GOOD CopChick, or GruntChick, back my six, than
some nambly pambly little snivelling S.O.B., or the atypical bulked up
trash talking "MachoMan" with no stones when the shit hits the fan.
+ Would you rather cuddle up with UnDude or a real Looker one frosty
night?
You that have been there know of what I speak, Right?
By and by - What was that Red Russian chicks name with like 500 kills?????
Just some food for thought......................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 11:56:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.47)
Mike M,
If you get a chance would you drop me and e.mail with a list of
personsal items you take with you or would recommend on a call up for a
sniper and spotter for a SWAT operation of a day in length, this would
be other than rifle, ammo, radio, spotting scope, etc. thanks!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 13:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
James Jarret: I understand that some officers are reluctant to serve with females because of their relative lack of strength as a group. I also understand that, from what *I* understand, they have little future as light infantry people, also owing to the fact that they typicaly just cant pile on enough muscle mass to hump all the gear. I *further* understand that ther are all sorts morale and dicipline problems that *can* come with females in the ranks. Not *must*, but certainly can. I also understand that out culture is one that dosnet build all that many women that are psycologicaly suited to combat or LEO roles. I have also heard the stories of the female soldiers getting pregnant repeatedly and just generaly milking the system and otherwise not carrying their load.
*However*...I have enough of a "liberal" streak in me to think (or at least hope) that those woman that can cut the mustard for a given job should be given a fair opportunity to claim it. A a number for discussion, lets say that two women soldiers in a hundred are physicaly and mentaly qualified to get through Ranger school intact. Is it worth warping the whole system around to acomodate that two percent? Perhaps not. The military is its own little world and I am not eager to tell them how to do their job of selecting and managing people.
But my question was narrower than that. What I was interested in
was the difficulty of employing women as snipers *relative* to other MOSs.
At first glance to this Puke, Civilian, One Each, the idea would seem to
have a little merrit. For one thing, I would think that a snipers physical
requirements would favor stealth and endurance over strength. The loads
are not as horrificly heavy as in Ranger school but you have to haul them
as far and more stealthily than the typical light infantryman. You can
only force so much muscle mass onto a female frame without resorting to
illegal chemicals but you can train them up to just about any endurance
requirement you might need. Further, their smaller stature might make them
more stealthy on a stalk as a group. As for the psycology of it, I imagine
that most females in this culture and not up to staring a man in the eyes
through a scope while taking up the slack on the trigger. Then again, few
men are either. As for the morale and dicipline problems, I would tend
to associate that more with the rear echelon folks than with professional
combat arms people who should be training so hard that they dont have time
for such troubles to arise. Dunnow. Perhaps I am wrong. I know that then
can shoot well enough. This much is beyond question.
Ron Hack:
One of the better resources for exposing fake SEALs and such that I have found on the web is:
http://www.marinescoutsniper.com
It turns out that people who have served in such roles as SEALs and snipers and that have earned decorations for valor rather resent people grasping for glory and honors that they have not earned. Imagine that. They are pretty militant about going after such folks, too. But be advised: you have to show up with a cetrtain amout of proof in advance that they are indeed mirepresenting themselves.
Isnt it sad when people cant find a measure of happiness by being
themselves? What a sorry way to live.
B. Douglas and AR triggers:
Others here are more qualified to discuss the horrors of LEO liability,
but I might suggest documenting a record of periodicaly having the trigger
inspected by a qualified armorer, the weight of pull recorded at each inpesction.
You might further want to document on videotape the rifle withstanding
some sort of drop test to the floor or something without discharging. Just
a thought. To that end, back when I was 'smithing for (part of) a living,
I actualy took my NRA trigger weights to the SC Department of Agriculture
and had them documented as to their accuracy (which was impressive, BTW).
The document is useless *unless* I were to end up on the witness stand
or being deposed and I can toss that out on the table as proof of my not
being a complete screwup. They are the only such set of weights in South
Carolina. I know this 'casue the DOA Weights and Measures people had to
figure out a whole new way of documenting them, as they had never seen
any before... :)
Grunt and M14s:
No experience with the IDF guns, but the standard M1A is my idea
of a fine battle rifle and will usualy beat 2 MOA out of the box and can
be tuned with the GI barrel to approach 1 MOA in many cases. But if you
want such a rifle primarily to mount a scope on then I would look at the
Armalite AR-10 flattop, as they are about as accurate and have a vastly
simpler and very secure mounting arrangement for optics. To me that is
the primary diff between the two in making such a decision: scope or no
scope.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 13:49:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
UnDude: Personnal items on a call up ? Now would that be Glazed or
Boston Creme ? Only kidding !!!
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 14:08:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 32.97.88.102)
Years ago a briliant Black Man wrote in PORAC and article titles "I passed white" It was in regards to his having the highest passing score of anyone taking the sergeantts test in a large agency. He knew that the standards had been lowered and felt slighted because no one would know he had a high score. He explained how we could not cheapen the standards for anyone. I respected what he said then and now. About this same time I was offered one of my many medical retirement options. A Lt. told me I should go because I could be outran by a "90lbs female" and that I had a 40% disability rating. My resonse was anyone that only weighed 90lbs had to run because they could not fight and that 60% of me was better than 100% of many hirred under the new rules. The Lt. looked at the ground, shaked his head and said "Your right I wont bother you again"
My point is that not everyone can do this job no matter what they have or do not have between the legs. I will take anyone qualified but hate the the lower standards. Humping the gear is a major concern so strength is an issue.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 14:19:01 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.196.29)
Greetings to all,
As I am new to this board, I'll bore you with a little background on me:
I am a life-long precision shooting competitor who strongly wished to become a Marine Corp Scout/Sniper as a youth (after learning more about the reality of the job, I stuck with paper punching). Back when there was a great little organization known as the DCM, I got to represent Maine at Camp Perry as the Maine State Junior high-power champ. The DCM "Whistler Boy" Match (for the top two junior high-power shooters from each state) was fired with NM M16s. I was using a NM M1 Garand at the time and the black gun felt like a toy the first time I handled it. I had a great deal of fun, placed very well, and earned an Army Expert badge at age 13. We stayed after the Whistler was over to compete in the scheduled Natl. Matches and it was there that I got my first chance to shoot at 1000 yards. Iron sights, pouring rain and wind whipping in off the Great Lakes ... God, I loved it!! All of the service armory trailers set up, meeting the Navy & Marine 'smiths (my dad was a Navy team member for many years and took the All-Navy pistol title in '72), it is one of the best memories from my childhood.
I am lucky enough to live only 5 miles from a 10 point, 600 yard range. The same range where I competed in high-power NRA competitions years ago. After watching the State Police Tactical Squad going through their paces at long distance last year, I have got the bug to get back out on the line and do some "long distance dialing".
I am looking at purchasing a Savage 10FP in .308, set up in a Choate U.S. stock w/ Harris bipod. Here are my questions for the regulars out there:
Any words of wisdom (based on personal experience, please--conjecture need not apply) on the Savage 10FP?
Looking at a 10X Mil-Dot for optics, what are good rings for the 10FP?
Anything negative about the Choate U.S. stock that I should know?
Thanks to all nimrods out there (nimrod by the way is a compliment ... it is an ancient word meaning "straight shooter" and "great hunter")
Patrick
(sorry about the rambling post ... love to talk about precision
shooting)
Patrick Rowling <junebug@midcoast.com>
Rockland, ME, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 15:34:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.26.229.133)
Aaron Raine <araine901@aol.com>
Brea , CA, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 15:58:04 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.223.104.57)
That's what friends are for (hopefully I can call you that), little
issues aren't so important. Now If you owned a SSSSSSSSS, Saaaaaa, Saaaav,
and were not THE high priest of Varget, that would be a completely different
story! Just Kiddin!
Tony Y,
It was that California Blonde Ghillie and West Coast Tan that was
sweet as mollasses...... HA!
Mike Miller,
You little?????? Maybe at birth!
Let me re-phrase the Lady issue a little - Competant People for the
right job not quota'ed
Major Kim (Who posts here ofen) and a buncha others have broke their
FEMININE butts to get where they go. Drive to succeed right?
I do understand past & current LEO's and Military issues with
women in the ranks, am not pro-feminist, but eveyone should be given a
fair shake if they meet the credentials necessary for the job.
On another note: We passed our County Occupancy Inspection today, and will be moving into the new digs this Friday through Sunday.
YEEEH-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
cHAO!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY`, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 16:21:13 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.84)
I just got a Tasco SS10x42 and as I was waiting for my bus home, I ranged some objects at known distances. Standing in the middle if the San Francisco financial district with a rifle scope sure draws some funny looks.
Looking for a place to shoot in Northern California? Circle K Ranch in Petaluma is outstanding. You can get directions from the Cotati Rod and Gun Club or Montana Hawk Gun Shop (You will need a map to find this place, as it's out in the boondocks)
They hold DCM matches there, and the rifle range has target holders
from 25 to 450 yards. The rangemaster told me that 500 yards behind the
main firing line is a second firing line that they sometimes use on special
occasions, which puts the targets from 525 to 950 yards.
I've seen people shoot blackpowder cannon out there.
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
rohnert Park, ca, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 16:50:08 (ZULU)
(your host address: 204.162.86.225)
This isn't intended as woman bashing just a reality check - and yes
women and men stay warm together way to well. Some can and will succeed
- and I have nothing against including them - but they are not the typical
If you include less capable members (inc. men) you wear down the
rest for they have to pick up the slack - you just can't leave kit (people
yes) out there esp. if its mission esential.
Ditto LE - get into a ground fight and the meanest, dirtiest cocksucker usually wins.
In a perfect world maybe they belong... but not in ours.
Sorry,
- judge for performance not color,creed,sex etc. but don't ever waiver
just for a pretty face (or more)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 16:51:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.139.196)
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <darren@darrendong.com>
San Francisco, CA, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 18:44:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 207.247.204.20)
I'm playing with my new rifle, and the trigger is a little light
for what I want. On the HVR trigger,
First, which allen screw adjusts the weight of the trigger pull?
Second, which way increases the weight of the pull? CW or CCW?
Third, how much weight is added with each turn of the screw?
Tac-Ord will probably get back to me soon, but I checking with you guys to get the info a a little faster
Thanks, Semper Fi.
Kush out
kush <smak@pce.net>
buffalo, ny, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 19:18:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 136.183.153.244)
To any one who has used the A4 McMillan Stock, if you have the adjustable
cheek piece on your stock, have you had trouble removing the bolt on your
rifle?
I went to remove the bolt and even with the cheek piece all the
way down I could barely get the bolt out. If the cheek piece was cut back
about a 1/2 inch shorter horizontally, no problem
Now with the cheek piece off the stock, no problem.
Open for discussion
Kush out
kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 19:51:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 136.183.153.244)
Darren
Darren <xm852@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 21:47:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
195.92.67.40)
Thank you very much
erik_hanell@antiochla.edu
Erik <erik_hanell@antiochla.edu>
Mar Vista, Ca., USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 22:01:23 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.37.52.1)
Thanks for your expertise!!!
MCW
MC Wardlaw <mwardlaw@pss.msstate.edu>
West , MS, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 22:05:36 (ZULU) (your host
address: 130.18.201.230)
I live in Alaska and am looking for a new .338. My two hunting rifles are a .308 M77 and a .338 M70. The Ruger shoots well, but the .338 feels better when you are pushing aside alders (Brown Bears). The Winchester has been a workhorse, but it has its drawbacks. It is carbon steel, does not have controlled feeding, and does not group as tight as the Ruger(Purchased used, it had previously seen rough use). I have kept my shots with it under 200 yards, and it has always knocked them down. I am planning on selling them both.
I am looking for a stainless .338 with better accuracy. Controlled round feed is nice, but not a necessity. I am 6' 4", and good aftermarket stock selection (ie. Length of pull) is important. Ideally, the whole package would total around 10 pounds; no muzzle brake. I like safari slings when hunting with a backpack.
My scopes have always been Leupold 3-9's, but I am open to suggestions. Resistance to moisture and temperature change is a necessity.
What type of rig would you recommend?
Tom <n1186@ppco.com>
Alaska, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 22:30:14 (ZULU) (your host
address: 136.226.254.158)
It might not hurt to give Janet at H-S Precision a call on your 338 situation. We have a line of rifles called the Professional Hunter Rifles, which basically is the "safari" type heavier barreled sporter-weight rifle. These are stainless thru and thru, receiver and barrel, fitted to our sporter stock, which we can modify in house for your LOP (length of pull). Calibers larger than 30 caliber are guaranteed 1MOA at 100 yds, and the 338 win mags generally run 1/2 to 3/4 moa, so they do shoot. You can check out the H-S website at www.hsprecision.com if you'd like to see what we build, or call Janet at H-S at (605) 341-3006. She'll be glad to help ya out.
later
JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 22:56:47 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.167)
And on a similar note, what's the best flash hider (yeah, flash suppressor) for an AR? Something that makes AA2015 INVISIBLE ;-)
Thanks again guys, I KNOW the knowlege is out there! Now to locate
some of that good paint for the AR, something in 3 color desert I think....
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
knowlege mongering for AR's in the, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at
01:14:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.170)
I zero'd my rifle and got my come-ups out to 600 yards @ 1000 feet above sea level and 70 degrees F...nominal humidity.
How would my 100-yard zero and come-ups to 600 yds. change when I'm at anywhere from 3000-8000 feet this August with T at 15-40 degrees F. May see "100%" humidity (freezing rain) and snow is also always a possibility.
I know altitude=thinner atmosphere=less drag on bullet and also that lower T=slower powder burn=less fps...think they'll negate each other? I won't need "pinpoint" accuracy but still like to consider and understand all variables.
Oh yea...I've seen the physics you guys dredge up...I'm looking for "field-expedient," "practical" methodology...I'm not much for how formulas were derived...not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything :)
Thanks!
(load is 7mm Rem Mag, 63gr IMR 4350, Fed Match 210 primer, Nosler
150 gr BT...groups 0.2-0.3 MOA...)
Mat <nanook@voyager.net>
Alaska, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 01:55:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.90.120.94)
I'm not going to argue that women should be on the battlefield or could win one-on-one with the criminal element. I agree standards should not be lowered to accomadate anyone who wishes to join the miltary or police department.
I personally have been on many forced marches, carrying the same amount of gear as everyone else, and watched many younger male Marines get into the five ton. I have pulled my bloody socks off and went back to work. I have locked and loaded before rounding a corner of a BEQ only to find Marines shooting bottle rockets. ( no killer instinct? I would have shot to kill had there been guns involved) Male Marines have cried in my office when I have read them their rights.(I am a legal officer too). I am 40 in September and recently ran a 285 PFT out of 300. I outran my body building gunny. For you old timers, the WMs now have to run the 3 miles and do the same 100 situps in two minutes as the males. We still do not have to do pull ups, but I can do around six dead hangs. I just shot a 368 (expert)out of 400 on the pistol range. Nothing blazing, but the gunny to my left and the major to my right scared me with their lack of trigger control. ( Neither lost their insignia on qual day) Many females I meet should not be Marines, but the same applies to many males. I'm from West Virginia so I probably know how to skin a rabbit or field dress a deer better than most men. (no killer instinct? you know what is (are) the first thing you cut off when you field dress a deer?) My very sharp KBar is under my seat in my blazer. Just let one of the car jackers try it. I HOPE his last thought as I plead for mercy and bend over before I come up with my friend to disembowel him is how helpless I am.
It disturbs me that many of you are keying only on the physical aspects of these jobs and also re-living your glory days. I know the only way to win a war is to occupy the ground, contrary to what the Air Force would like to think. This is the job of the grunts. God Bless the Infantry. However, what some of you are forgetting is the fact that snipers, general infantry and law enforcement officers don't operate in a vacuum. It takes a team of loggies, pilots, drivers etc... to get the players where they need to go and with the right equipment. For the most part, war isn't the same as Korea. Most units ride now. Even recon SPIES or fast ropes in. Push-to-Talk fire missions are beautiful things. I am now an admin weenie, basic Marine officer-"Chair Borne", but while I was enlisted I was a radio repairman. Try fighting without comm. Frankly, it simple takes intelligence and logical thinking to repair radios.
Well, I've said my piece, now I am off to do my overseas deployment.
Maybe I'll get lucky and get to share a tent with a real looker.
kim <kim@hunters.org>
USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 02:43:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.233.164.10)
Permanently attached for your purposes means, "every damn trick you
can pull to make *sure* that an ATF guy cant remove the device without
a big torch or a band saw". Get it? Specificaly mentioned are blind-hole
pinning, high temperature sliver soldering and welding. My M4-oid's Vortex
(an older, straight-fluted version that indeed eliminates flash and is
more rugged than the later, helixed ones, or so I am told) is both blind-hole
pinned *and* tacked with a stick welder. No loss of accuracy if done with
due care.
MCW and Remington vs. Winchester
Well, I dont normaly discuss religeon in mixed company, but...
The thing is with Remingtons is that they are engineered to be easy to make to a high degree of precision. It starts as a big ole' round piece of bar stock and those dimentions are pretty easy to hold throughout the production process. You dont even have to mill out a recoil lug: instead you just clamp a stamped piece of plate between the barrel and action and you are done. For the inside you bore a hole down through the middle and broach some slots for the bolt locking lugs to ride in and that parts done. Make the hole a bit bigger at the front and thread it and that where the barrel threads in. The bolt is just another round piece of steel with a hole bored down the middle, with a ring of steel left at the front to whittle the locking lugs out of. Braze on a bolt handle via a sleeve investment cast in with the handle (and whick also has your initial extraction cam encorporated) and you have one realy nice action that is easy to make. Simple, right? Not too much to go wrong as compared to other designs. Not to say that Remington actualy does all of these things correctly every time, but if you engineer something that is easy to make, it is more likely to be made correctly. I havent owned a Winchester for a while now, but the ones I have worked with had all sorts of obvious dimentional problems , including an obviously undercut recoil lug that lead me to destroy a stock after glassing it. That was a nastly little lesson. As I understand it, owing to the way they are made its just a lot harder to make the recievers square and in spec than it is a Remington. The little sping extractor on the reamington is not loved my folks used to the big claw extractors on Mausers and such, but the truth is that they dont often fail. The Winchester trigger is made of fewer, bigger chunks of steel and can be nicely tuned by a 'smith with the correct tooling and knowledge, but it aint as simple as tweaking a few screws as on the 700 Remington. The breeching is a clever combination of contouring of the rear of the barrel and the bolt that results in an almost perfect seal to guard against gas leakage in the event of case head failures. The later Model 70s have this, but those arent the ones that everybody wants, it it? :) The Pre-64s have a Spingfield-like breeching arrangement that spews gas in all directions in the event a case head gives it up. Not that this is common, mind you, but still, its a nice feature. The latest ones with the claw I am not sure of, but I cant imagine how they could bring the claw back without compromising breaching to some degree.
Bottom line is, a Remington is easier to make more precisely than a Winchester. That is not to say that Remington always does this or that Winchester cannot make an action sufficiently precise to compete. Its just that, all else being equal, the Remington is more likely to shoot better.
Ramble mode (off) :)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown , SC, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 03:40:54 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Permanently attached for your purposes means, "every damn trick you
can pull to make *sure* that an ATF guy cant remove the device without
a big torch or a band saw". Get it? Specificaly mentioned are blind-hole
pinning, high temperature sliver soldering and welding. My M4-oid's Vortex
(an older, straight-fluted version that indeed eliminates flash and is
more rugged than the later, helixed ones, or so I am told) is both blind-hole
pinned *and* tacked with a stick welder. No loss of accuracy if done with
due care.
MCW and Remington vs. Winchester
Well, I dont normaly discuss religeon in mixed company, but...
The thing is with Remingtons is that they are engineered to be easy to make to a high degree of precision. It starts as a big ole' round piece of bar stock and those dimentions are pretty easy to hold throughout the production process. You dont even have to mill out a recoil lug: instead you just clamp a stamped piece of plate between the barrel and action and you are done. For the inside you bore a hole down through the middle and broach some slots for the bolt locking lugs to ride in and that parts done. Make the hole a bit bigger at the front and thread it and that where the barrel threads in. The bolt is just another round piece of steel with a hole bored down the middle, with a ring of steel left at the front to whittle the locking lugs out of. Braze on a bolt handle via a sleeve investment cast in with the handle (and whick also has your initial extraction cam encorporated) and you have one realy nice action that is easy to make. Simple, right? Not too much to go wrong as compared to other designs. Not to say that Remington actualy does all of these things correctly every time, but if you engineer something that is easy to make, it is more likely to be made correctly. I havent owned a Winchester for a while now, but the ones I have worked with had all sorts of obvious dimentional problems , including an obviously undercut recoil lug that lead me to destroy a stock after glassing it. That was a nastly little lesson. As I understand it, owing to the way they are made its just a lot harder to make the recievers square and in spec than it is a Remington. The little sping extractor on the reamington is not loved my folks used to the big claw extractors on Mausers and such, but the truth is that they dont often fail. The Winchester trigger is made of fewer, bigger chunks of steel and can be nicely tuned by a 'smith with the correct tooling and knowledge, but it aint as simple as tweaking a few screws as on the 700 Remington. The breeching is a clever combination of contouring of the rear of the barrel and the bolt that results in an almost perfect seal to guard against gas leakage in the event of case head failures. The later Model 70s have this, but those arent the ones that everybody wants, it it? :) The Pre-64s have a Spingfield-like breeching arrangement that spews gas in all directions in the event a case head gives it up. Not that this is common, mind you, but still, its a nice feature. The latest ones with the claw I am not sure of, but I cant imagine how they could bring the claw back without compromising breaching to some degree.
Bottom line is, a Remington is easier to make more precisely than a Winchester. That is not to say that Remington always does this or that Winchester cannot make an action sufficiently precise to compete. Its just that, all else being equal, the Remington is more likely to shoot better.
Ramble mode (off) :)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown , SC, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 03:41:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Both are said to eliminate up to 95% or more of the muzzle flash. You stated this FS is going on a preban rifle so everything sounds like it is a go. The Phantom and the Vortex can make a 14.5 inch M4 length/type barrel legal if it is permanently attached. Bushmaster does a welded pin type ordeal on permanently attached muzzle breaks and flash suppressors, seems most of the other makers use this approach too.
Funny thing, I was just shooting some hand rolled 55grn Vmax with
24.2grn charges of AA2015 the other night. It was a pretty bright flash
but I don't have much to compare it too as it was my first time shooting
the rifle at night. This gun I was shooting is a 14.5 inch AR with a muzzle
break so I was getting a lot of flash. Still a fun "shits and giggles"
sort of thing though. Wish I got a preban before Ca. went psycho-liberal
on me. If I ever shoot this bad boy at something at night, it's gonna poop
itself from the dang muzzle flash alone! I'm dealing with about a 1 1/4
foot dia. by almost 2 foot long muzzle flash, I will try some other powder
loads one of these days to see if I can find something dimmer. I'd kind
of would like to see a 10.5 commando barrel's muzzle flash.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 04:36:36 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.41)
New website: http://www.simrad-optronics.com/
Simrad is located i Oslo, Norway.
TorF
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 13:18:01 (ZULU) (your host
address: 193.212.93.33)
question # 2: everything i've heard and read about what scope to use said leupold vari-x III 3.5x10 long range M3 W/mil dot. is there any other one that i could use by leupold that is a little lower in price? i will be only shooting 300 yards at the most.
i don't plan to hunt but like the tactical looks and love to hit what i shot at with precision. any help would be greatly appriciated.
thank all !
steve chin <steve7h47@aol.com>
s.f., ca, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 13:24:44 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.207.203)
Not much to choose from, there. Just the shape of the stock and fact
that the PSS has a true parkerized finish, wheras the VS is bead blar blued.
By the time you gunk it up with camo I doubt that will make much difference.
:) The only reason I went with the PSS is the local law enforcement distributor
gives me better layaway terms than the local dealers do. No letterhead
required in my case, but if they did want to become crappy about it I would
not hesitate "make do" with a VSS and save a few dollars in the process.
As an aside, my understanding is that when the USMC started setting up
a sniping program in RVN and they shipped in those old M70 Winchester match
guns (with the 8x Unertls and all that), they arrived with two different
stocks on them, stemming from the different periods of time they were procured
in, I imagine. One stock was a full heavy match stock akin to the PSS stock
and the other was a sporting-weight stock that looked a bit like the VS
stock. Guess which one was prefered by the guys crawling around in the
bushes? The ligher one. Must be some merit to the idea. :)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 13:43:11 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
As for the women in combat arms issue, I'll add my two cents. The Israelis tried several times to integrate male/female infantry units with disasterous results. The primary problem was a primal one - men invoulentarily went out of their way to protect the women. The other side of this is totally economical. If you spend the money to send 100 men through Ranger school or the Q course and only 30 graduate or are selected that's acceptable. BUT if you send 100 women and only 3 make it through, that doesn't make economical sense. I firmly believe that there are places for women in combat arms - particularly in aviation, but not ground pounding and especially not in special operations at the team level. Granted, in my SOCOM years I came across a few women that I think could have smoked some guys in the Q course - just not many.
Just my twei pfennigs.
Brandon <brandon@computercafe.com>
California, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 16:09:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.180.87.138)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 17:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
#2 The objective bell is 56mm. which I think is way larger than necessary, and require very high rings, thusly eliminating a good cheek to stock weld. I certinaly would not presume to spend your money for you and tell you to go buy brand x but of the many scopes I own (22) I think for what I do, my 4.5x14 Leupold and a newly acquired Tasco SS10/W mill dots are the ones I seem to favor. Resolution is very good and light gathering ability exceptional.
I am sure there are those out there that will beg to differ but that's
my personal experience/feeling. I have several Redfield Accutracs that
are just laying in the g-safe. For just a few more $$$ you can do far better
than the Springfield. I will let the guys that make their living looking
through these things suggest what to buy!
Vernon <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 18:03:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.242.58.99)
Major Kim: well done. Semper Fi. If we're worried about being able to do everything possible, we're in trouble. Perfect is good enough. I mean, if Mike Miller went down, I doubt I could get him out. I'm no "fly weight" either, but he'd probably have to threaten me with a melted down ginsu knive just so my knees wouldn't buckle! That's why I learned something called "team work" ;-)
Does "Bouncing Betty" count as a female in combat arms? HA!
Question for the day: AR freefloated handguards. Worth it for out
to 400?
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
middle of nowhere, no more flags a-wavin', USA - Friday, June 16, 2000
at 18:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Steve,
If your only going to shoot 300yds save your money and buy a 3.5x10
or a 4.5x14 with the quarter minute dials and either will do a great job
for you out to at least 600yds before you will start getting confused.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 19:19:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
I've got a Savage 110 in 7mm Rem Mag. I get groups of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA depending on how much I've been practicing. (Although if it's been a few months I might shoot 1 1/2 MOA my first string, but that's due to the operator not the gun). That's at ranges up to 450 yards.
Recoil isn't a problem, prone, sitting or standing. Against deer or elk, the caliber gets my stamp of approval.
It's a pretty flat shooting round too.
An interesting note to people who think only a $1,000 rifle and $1,000
scope will do. I bought my rifle at Wal-Mart for $300 bucks and haven't
done a thing to it, except add a bi-pod.
pete robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
Rohnert Park, ca, USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 21:45:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 204.162.86.225)
Lots of .300 Win Mags and .308s present, but more and more 6.5 x 284s showing up (including those shot by both USAMU and USMC).
Across-the-Course tomorrow (Saturday), and 4-man teams Sunday.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 22:09:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
I agree with you.
Women should not be intentionally put into combat. They cannot perform
hard manual labor as well most men ( excluding those few wimps). They,
on average, cannot handle physical stress as well.
However, with the U.S. population on a decline and qualified and
willing military applicants at an all time low, we are force to take a
few. Our challenge is to make sure they are the very best and best qualified
we can find. It makes me so sick to see the male leaders in my unit allow
the women to get away with things that the males would not be allowed to
get away with. It is worse when they want me to go fix it. I know they
are concerned about a sexual harrassment suit, but if handled properly,
that would not happen.
Funny story about the female with her pants down, about as good as the fella that let someone take his squad car for a joy ride!!! What idiots!!
I hope you guys get back to the main topic of this website which is excellence in marksmanship. ( Didn't say markswomanshp, did I). Although the times,they are a chang'in, the American public will be forced to deal with some female casualities. With CNN on the beach and in the streets, war has taken on a personal face. Nothing pissed me off more than seeing some spear wielding Africans dragging Rangers through the streets of Mogandishu. I could give you guys some insight into why this happened because I attended a career level school where we did a very thorough study of the issue. Of course I didn't get to go, but we talked to all sorts of guys that did. One of the reasons the Marines were not put in this sort of position was their use of snipers. Marines snipers relieved a couple of missle toting Somalians of their heads and the rest got the message. Marines also used mortars to fire over the woman and children used as "human shields" There are several other reasons, but I am not going to bore you with the details. If you want to know more, there are several good books out there, Black Hawk Down, being one of them , or you could e-mail me privately.
Here's an interesting thought- as you know, in many countries it is strictly forbidden for women to speak to foreign men. But guess who knows where all the bad guys are really hanging out? You got it, the women who are sleeping with the bad guys. Now who better to befriend the foreign ladies than a female soilder. Learn patterns, associations, who holds the REAL power....pass that info on to you guys and "walla"- one shot one kill. Of course its not quite that easy, but my point is to utilize ALL your assets.
One other thing...any man that is eager to kill another should be held at arm's length. Military and Police snipers are professionals, not murderers. They kill only because it is absolutely necessary. Of course they take pride in their craft, as they should, because when it has to be done, it should be done right. No place for fools here or the killer instinct to override reason and purpose.
I promise now matter how much more you guys continue to gnash your teeth and beat your chest about the fairer sex putting their cute little button noses where they don't belong, I will clear the net. Like I stated before, I agree with you on many of the most fundamental issues, but needed to add a little of me. Just don't try to highjack my car.
Happy Hunting
kim - out
kim <kim@hunters.org>
USA - Friday, June 16, 2000 at 23:43:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.233.164.10)
According to ATF standards, "permanently attached" means that the accessory needs to be attached at the end of the barrel with either soldering, brazing or welding. The filler material used for the operation needs to have a melting point of at least 1000 degreees F (actually, I seem to remember that it is either 900 or 1100 degrees, I am not 100% sure but in that range).
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 00:26:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.93.222.165)
2. 168 matchking at 2550 Fps. I use Varget for this one and the cartridge OAL will not fit the magazine. This load will do anything that a 308 & 190 gr matchking can do.
I have not found a load that will outperform a 308 yet. But I keep trying.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 02:20:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.124)
Can somebody tell me the difference in QUALITIES that a stainless
action would have over a regular action and vice versa? Jerry? I am not
talking about looks or weather resistance, but the quality of the steel,
hardness, flexability, brittleness, etc. Does one have a metallurgic advantage
over the other? If not, why are all those 40X's built on Stainless actions?
If you had the choice between the two, and color didnt mean anything which
one would you pick and why?
Thanks to all who reply
TR <BOLTGUNZRUL@aol.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 02:35:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.194.204)
Patron Dave: Hourah! Sure am itchin' to do some myself! How's the new digs? We still on for Perry next year? ;-)
Martin: I've gone after that question from a different light, same conclusion. My Uncle hunts with a 280, because you only lose a few percent from the 7 mag, but don't suffer the belted problems. Of course, you don't lose that much going from a 280 to a strong loaded 7X57 either (NON-mauser!). Mine are still chambered for a 30. Not like I need the long range anyway for hunting! 200 yards would be a WHOPPER shot.
Guys: gonna do some "experimental" shooting tomorrow morning. If
it works out, Patron 'Lito will set your world upside down! Here's to the
"scientific method"!
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
cleanin' rifles in the, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 03:07:45 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.133)
This is a classic problem with full length AR barrels that are shortened to just in front of the gas block. While the port is the same distance from the chamber and thus sees the same port pressure, the *duration* of that gas pulse is drasticaly shortened by the abbreviation of the barrel. When the bullet clears the bore, the pressure drops to ambient instantly, before the gas system receives its full charge of gas leading to the gun being underpowered. Options include removeal ofthe gas blockopening up the gas port or replacement of the barel. Some manufacturers seem to produce such shortened guns that are reliable, but it has to be noted that Bushmaster thought it nessicery to design a special setup in its Dissipator line, where a CAR gas system resides under the handguards of what otherwise appears to be a standard-but-shortened front end. I figure they probably did'nt go to all that trouble without a reason.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 03:27:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Kim; it's been a while since I've jumped in the car with a Marine at a stop sign but it could happen in your case . Just show me the K-BAR if I make that mistake so I'll know it's you! Pat, she makes me real nervous with that K-bar. Don't want to wind up with my head shut in that window. I've seen that thing with the deer!
Martin; The 7-08 is a good round. The rifle Sillouete crowd was big
fans of it. But mostly it was the slightly lighter recoil than the .308
and since they were just knocking down metal targets it was adequate. As
a hunting round the .308 is superior or at least that's my experience.
I would not favor the .270 or 30-06 over it much. It's hardly worth rebarreling
or rechambering for the difference except in the case where the 30-06 is
shooting 190 grain or larger bullets.
The 30-06 is a grand cartridge but it's on the way out these days
and considered uncool on most of the Elk Slopes in favor of the big mags.
Bravo; are you saying that you've found a way to use home brew to
replace Varget. Lord what's El Condor up to now! MEEEDIC!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 03:46:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Stainless steels tend to be "gummier', "stickier" (like the precise
metalugical lingo? :) and harder to machine than carbon steels. In order
to arrive at the desired properties such as hardness, toughnes, resistance
to abrasion, all of that, its a bit trickier than with a carbon steel.
Get it wrong and you get things like early SS hammers in S&W revolvers
that wore quickly (the short-term fix was to go with nickle-plated carbon
steel parts) and the serous galling problems on the earlier Colt Government
Models in stainless, which took some tweaking of the heat treatment and-or
alloy to eliminate.
The good news is that bolt action recievers are relativly simple
things in this regard and that manufactuers now know a lot more about stainless
nowadays and make far fewer mistakes. I dont imagine that stainless steel
bolt gun actions perform very differently than their carbon steel counterparts.
Grunt and which caliber:
Was it Townsend Whelen who said, "The .30-06 is never a mistake"?
No matter who said it, there is a measure of truth in it.
Doug and .308 Match loads:
If you handload, Matchkings on top of Varget, ACC 2520 and IMR 4831
are realy good starts. It you dont, Federal or Remington match ammo, or
Black Hills for that matter, should work nicely.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown , SC, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 03:51:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Major Kim, I think we both agree that anyone that can do the job should be allowed to do it. We also agree that No Standard should be relaxed for anyone! I have met several women that did a fine job as cops. I have met many that should not have been cops. I have also met many men that should not be cops. I would not want to try and take your car even if you did not have a Kabar. Be safe on deployment. You dont need a looker, you are one.
Bravo, can you send me Dan's email address. He is not responding to the one I have. On your CQB request, that is my main thing. Sniper is my love but I have spent many months living with a CAR/MP5 and pistols. James, and I will put together a list and let you know.
TRGT has a new data book. IT has the 300 win mag data in it, for 190's. They just keep improving on it.
Slings are back up and running. If you have one on order it will be going out soon. If you want one now is a good time to send for it.
M107/M95 testing is done and it is a fine weapon. The sample held 1MOA at 1000 meters with Arizonia Ammo's Bench Rest loads. Well I have a head ache from shooting to many rounds through it, first in NM and this week in the National Forrest. 150 rounds in one day is too much for 50 cal. Yes Rick it is like a hand grenade going off next to your head.
undude/mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 15:42:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.83.143)
JOKE! Nope, that's not it, but it sure sounded good ;-)
CQB AR question of the day: I used 55 grainer Winchester FMJBT w/Canelure
for "blaster-plinking ammo", and I use Sierra 69 MK's for target work.
What twist rate and bullet would be best for CQB, and of course, be able
to still hit well at 400?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, June 17,
2000 at 18:00:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Women in combat - Sorry Kim, but until men stop protecting the little darlings we will not be able to function with them in combat. That protection includes saying it requires 80 push ups for men and only 60 for women, yadda yadda yadda. My daughter is a vice officer with the police department and the guys trust her and welcome her and "Protect Her". While this irratates her to no end (makes me happy), they still do it. As far as shooting, there is a female dynasty in the high power shooting consisting of a mother and two daughters. They will and do out shoot men on a regular basis! But shooting is no the problem, combat is the problem.
Remington extractors - I always hear shooters talking about the "delicate" Remington extractor. We had over 80,000 rounds on our extractors before they started requiring replacement. This is a 1 minute job that can be done with a pocket knife on the M24. MC the military did not particuly prefer the Remington, they won because their rifle was better then the other example and Winchester chose not to submit.
Dave - Several of our guys have gone to M16 for service rifle and really are impressed with the little Mattie Mattel Bang Bang gun. They are getting comparable scores with the little sucker.
The army binos are a real pain in the eyes due to the laser coating and there is a substantial light transmittance lose as well. We will not use them for stalk observation due to these problems. I would not bother trying to get them and look for a better pair.
Mike - Now try it left handed! Joking there what? I was worried about that little feature. We used Styre AUG SAs in El Salvador and you would get a pisser of a headache after a "little" engagement. Right now we have a bunch of guys going to Aberdeen for the Army test of the Bull-pup. Talk to you about the final ending by email if it is cleared.
Trivia Time - You guys probably wonder why the Single Action SA. In combat your digital dexterity goes in the crapper after the first round. The selector switch on the full auto version was half pull single shot, full trigger pull to the rear - full auto. Mags go fast! Same problem in Saudi with the Royal Guard when I was training them in Counter Ambush Team Techniques.
Gab fest over, back to my students that just did horrible on the stalks. Told them my eyes are old and weak, they should have all maxed it!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 20:17:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.53)
Kim you left out the fact that armored vehicles request had just been refused. This was a major contribution to the fiasco. Three were snipers in the choppers, but the choppers were so far from the perimeter that the fixed installation snipers could not have helped the choppers at all. This was a political statement gone bad.
Out of here now!
Rick Again <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 20:23:25 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.53)
Bravo,
I'm not trying to say any of this is gospel, it is just info that
I have heard and read from a couple magazines and discussions. All of this
is food for thought to get the gears turning.
I would thing that 400 yards is a little outside of the expected
encounters that CQB suggests. CQB more than anything to me suggests short
range with max range encountered being out to around 200 yards. Heck, in
urban situations this is usually long for even a sniper to encounter isn't
it?
Perhaps some others from here have heard this too and could confirm the info,
55grn military style loads with the canneluer(sp?) have been shown to become a fragmenting round above 2600-2700fps. How reliably I don't know but they have been known to snap in half, upon entering tissue the bullet will yaw sideways and snap at the canneluer under the incredible pressure placed on it. The two halfs continue on in their own wound path. The wound profile gets fairly nasty due to this. About the only thing in my mind as far as wound channel and shock cavitys are concerned would be to go with a Balistic Tip style bullet, they expand down to around 1400fps reliably. It will take some digging to see what departments prefer to use, try to find out the reasons behind their decisions.
The 69grn Match bullets don't do much of anything, their construction
limits them to acting like a FMJ without the fragmentation. The alternative
to the 69grn Match bullet would be the 75grn Amax. Hornady designed the
Amax to shine in an area that the match hollow points fall short, expansion.
75grns in a 1:9 is pushing it, some rifles might shoot them accurately
and others might not. Might be worth trying though.
About the use of high temp solder or welding flash suppressors to barrels, the BATF wants it on there good. To make the things really difficult to remove, the manufactures usually run a pin through the muzzle break or flash suppressor and weld the pin so that you can't get the pin off. There are a couple ways of permanently attaching the things, the main focus here is PERMANENT! If anyone ever has any concerns whether what they are doing isn't legal then ask the ol' BATF, they will tell you or point you to the regulations on how to do it within their acceptable methods.
Lastly, on the AA2015 powder I was shooting the other night, this
was from a 14.5 inch barrel with a muzzle break not a flash suppressor.
Once that suppressor is attached by all means try the stuff out and see
if it will diminish.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 21:33:42 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.2.85)
One thing folks have to keep in mind about Remington bolt gun extractors:
the very same part is also used on the Remington 7400 semiauto, which with
its primitive, unregulated gas system places far more stress on the extractor
even under normal working conditionn. I have seen 742s and 7400s that have
snatched a section of the rim off of the case due to pitting in the chamber
and I have seen them that have fractured the bolt carrier into a million
ity-bity pieces from being matched with a stiff load of IMR 4350 in .30-06.
What I havent seen is more than a couple of broken extractors, even in
the gas guns. They are not a fragile piece of gear by any means.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 23:45:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Going for the most in accuracy, is the added cost for Norma and Lapua
brass worth the bite in the pocketbook over IMI or Federal match brass?
And if so why?
Thanks,
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, June 17, 2000 at 23:56:12 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.41.36.247)
March 24,2000. Metal Storm Limited (Australian Stock Exchange MST) today announced that the United States Department of Defense (DoD) has approved US$10.25 million funding for the development of a prototype Advanced Sniper Rifle utilising Metal Storm technology. The US DoD's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is sponsoring the prototype development.
Metal Storm Limited Managing Director and inventor of the technology, Mike O'Dwyer, said the funding would provide for a three year program to develop single barrel and multiple barrel prototype rifles for demonstration to the US military.
"Significantly, the agreement with DARPA also includes options for additional research and development into other potential applications of the technology, which we are hopeful will result in a number of additional separately funded efforts in the future.
"The other potential applications covered under these options include an area denial weapon system for minefield replacement, a minefield breaching system, close in weapon system for ship self-defence, and even fire fighting applications for civilian and military use."
Mr O'Dwyer said a team of world leading U.S. technology and weapons engineering companies would work with Metal Storm on the Advanced Sniper Rifle project.
These include: Scientific Applications International Corporation
(SAIC) - the largest employee-owned high technology company in the U.S.
and acknowledged leader in national security. Metal Storm has a teaming
agreement with SAIC to promote and develop its technology in the USA;
Alliant Techsystems - U.S. aerospace and defence technology supplier
specialising in ballistics engineering, complex systems integration and
ammunition design and production; and
Customer Analytical Engineering Systems (CAES) - a recognised world-leader
in composite weapons engineering and projectile design and development.
The funding announcement closely follows Metal Storm's appointment of former Vice Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, four-star Admiral William A. Owens (US Navy retired), as a director of the company to consolidate its strategic relationships with defence and government interests in the USA, and throughout the world.
Metal Storm Limited Ph: +61 7 3221 9733
Sally Kaye <skaye@metalstorm-ltd.com>
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 00:20:01
(ZULU) (your host address: 24.192.0.194)
Also to debunk any rumours about 1:7 being to fast - I have a 1:7 on my M4 - a 1:7 in my HBAR and we have 1:7's in the C7's. Having shot 40gr Fed Blitz and other factory 'light HP's" from all the above, I have never seen one fly apart before the tgt. Mind you these are all factory loads that aren't trying to set any velocity records.
Mike - what are your thoughts on the 40gr HP's? I know you like 5.56 for pen (and your thoughts on 9 silliymeter) but what round(s) you like inside a house?
Jerry - still no word on my DCRA protest with the can!
Can you believe - F class won't allow my can! I tried to explain
it isn't a brake, but a suppressor, and they started to shake their heads
more? So much for Military competition.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 00:24:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.133.2)
Jerry - and other w/ knowledge of Jewell Remington triggers.
My bolt doesn't seem to lock until I fire the action, until then
it will just clean sail out -is this typical (not a criticism, just wondering)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 00:39:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.133.2)
It's easy to bind the bolt stop, when installing the trigger.
Pull the action out of the stiok, and check the bolt stop to make sure it's not binding, and that the spring catch is in the right place, and not binding the stop.
Also... when installing the front trigger retaining pin, it's easy to leave a bit sticking out in the bolt stop slot (say that 3 times FAST!)...
Check to make sure the front pin isn't binding the stop.
When properly installed, the bolt stop works just the same as it
did, with the factory trigger.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 01:15:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Danny Reever: Dunno about most guys, but I just size my brass (new), and go. Don't weigh it, don't sort it, don't do anything other than shoot it and then throw it away. It's FN made (hey, we're talking QUALITY! Annealled necks, drilled flash holes-plural, and machined heads!) NATO stuff, top notch. Of course, I can't talk about bolt guns, but I didn't see much group difference (and YES, I have the targets!) between the Fed GM and my "tossed together" loads. Dies are the KEY.
Ranger Rick: so you advocating SA pistolas? Seems that's what I shoot best, or at least them, the "selective actions" in SA mode and Glocks.
B. Douglas: It's not that I'm needing CQB to 400, but if I carry a rifle (even the poodle shooter) it's got to be able to whack something at least that far accurately. I'd hate to be effectively disarmed at moderately close range. Kind of a "extended CQB" rifle ;-) As far as the 69 grainers go, it was just my stupidity. I specified the twist on the barrel, so I can shoot those well, but the 55 FMJ's look like a shotgun hit at 100 yards. Any experience with the AA16whatever?
Too bad they don't make some super whippy light, short M-14 semi.
I'd probably just stick with that even though I knew it wasn't the right
choice. At least 400 wouldn't be a problem with 147's!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 01:57:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.222)
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 03:08:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.155)
The pecker-checkers we had in 3rd Recon and First Force were better than many Marines in The Corps. Most of our corpsmen were SEAL candidates at some point before joining the combat arms side of the Dept. of Navy and could hang with us from start to finish.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 04:08:42 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.81)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 05:15:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.197)
SEMPER-FI
Greg Morrow
Greg Morrow USMC hon. discharged <GTM@svol.net>
USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 05:36:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.8.183.164)
Chris< cmoore@portofsandiego.org
Christopher Moore <cmoore@portofsandiego.org>
san diego, ca, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 09:08:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.215.153.179)
I have a tentancy to look at things from an armorers perspective.
I tend to not like things that I can't fix when it breaks. Then again,
thre are people who say that about electronic ignitions and fuel injection
of cars, too, and I *like* those. Perhaps this stems from my liking to
work on guns and hating to work on cars. :)
-Tom
will stick with precusion for the forseeable future.
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 11:44:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
The M70 floor plate requires modification, and after that, the stock needs modification... nothing "drop-in" here.
McMillen sells the modified M70 floor plates, ready to go.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 12:42:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
David
David <btn4ch@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 13:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
165.166.45.196)
Bravo,
get the 1x9" twist for 55's. They also are the way to go for CQB.
I was shooting the 62's because I had a bunch of the Ugo Junk and wanted
to get rid of it. That stuff only holds about 3moa at 100 meters. I prefer
a 55 BT soft point. Itflies well and causes major damage, without an over
penetration problem
For LE Snipers out there. I just tested Black Hills new 308 168 grain made to limit over penetration. The stuff shoots to with in 1/2moa of the 168 regular load and groups very well. It is far better than having two calibers.
On becoming an Sniper Instructor via email. Give them Gooch's name. If you have to have questions asked via email by a qualified instructor you are not going to do the students justice. Wait until you have what is needed to instruct. Go to a few schools taught by some guys good at it, then become an instructor. Everyone will be better for it. We have too many unqualified LE Instructors all ready. This is not to piss you off just to open your eyes.
Looking for a better rifle. Two guys come to instant thought. Jerry Rice and George Gardner. I know George has a good stock of parts right now so that may be the fastest way to get a great rifle. Both will build rifles better than any of us.
Happy fathers day. Me I am working and my kids are with my ex. Joy to the world.
Undude/Mike hoping to learn to be a doctor via email
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 13:01:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Second...where can I get a manual for my Swavorski ZFM 69 scope.
I got
it new in the box with no paper work. Or does it even come with
any.
Help with this would be greatly appreciated. I understand they no
longer make this scope anymore. I mounted it on a Tikka 595 in .308.
I plan to use it out to 300-400 yrds. The scope was given to me.Thanks
David
David <Btn4ch@aol.com>
Columbia, S.C., USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 13:23:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 165.166.45.196)
1:9 with 55's it is, but just so I know, how heavy can I go with that spin before it doesn't do a good enough job on stabilization?
Also working today, but thanks to Mr. Mildot Master himself, I'll
have a nice batch of chile when I get home. Happy Father's Day all! And
an extra thank you to you Bruce, best thing I could have asked for!
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
middle-o-nowhere, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 14:18:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.9.223.170)
Just got into back into town for a day of rest. No phones or internet
on the horse ranch I'm working on starting colts just now.
By Gawd Georgia: I'll surely take it as a personal favor if you refer to me by James or Jarrett (I'll dispense with all the degree titles). Calling me "jimmy" is an insult and about like being referred to as "Bubba."
On the Women in Combat: I realize I stirred up a storm. It is a very visceral emotive issue (rather like gun control or abortion). Without boring the hell out of everyone with a lesson is distributive statistics; my comments, due to brief space and time availability on this forum, rely heavily upon an assumption that comments are general not specific in nature. My comments assume an understanding of the theoretical normal curve and the first standard deviation as representative of probability.
For my "progressive" (not liberal) associates on this forum, I stand by my comments. Shooting ability has never been an issue. Most women do, in the beginning, outshoot males; They have better fine motor skills and most do not come to the training ground with preconceived macho notions of being genetically endowed to handle weapons. At my American Shooting Academy, we see this phenomenon all the time. But, when it hits the progun level where it starts to get pretty razzle dazzle with lots of movement, rolling out of vehicles, diving over obstacles, etc. the women just fade or are "obviously" way outclassed by their male counterparts.
Gentlemen: as a Ph.d. trained criminal ethologist, allow me to offer that by design; all upper mammals ( especially predators) the male is designed by nature for combat, the female for child production and rearing. There it is in its most primitive form. Doesn't take a college degree to figure that one out. Those of you "progressives" that want a female as a partner, bless your heart, have at it. Me, I want a competent male at my back that has the necessary strength to drag my broken body out of the line of fire if need me. All the rest of it is just "stuff." De Oppressso Liber.
Strength and Honor,
JAMES
See to your weapons and stand to your horses
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
God's Country, NM, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 17:29:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.14.189.62)
Major Kim,
I was a little out of line with the "looker" comment, and was simply
meaning I'd rather be in a subzero bivvy with a female than a male, Human
Nature I guess- just a poorly communicated in Classic peteR style.
Please Accept my apology and I'm sure that none of my anatomy can
afford a "trim" via KaBar............. I'm too damn skinny as is!
BTM,
Either Badger rings or Burris Signature (with inserts) are your
best bet, degrease the scope body also.
Now which box is the Varget packed in, hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm??
Chao and Happy Fathers Day!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Still unpacking BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 21:29:41
(ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.57)
Some may think that my opinions on these things are backwards but these are them and they are well reseached.
After having a 16" H-Bar, a 14.5" M4, and a 20" A1, I will take the 20" A1 anyday. The carbines are nice to carry but do not handle real well after the trigger is pulled; muzzle rise,general movement, etc. The final rifle that I had was a A1 barrel with an A1E3 receiver, A2 stock and handguards, and A2 rear aperture and front post. This rifle weighed the same as a 16" H-Bar. It shot 1 moa groups to 350 yards and had very good handling charecteristics while engaging targets. The added muzzle velocity was nice, also.
If you are looking for a rifle to shoot, this is what I would reccomend.
Bullets and twists:
I compared some 55 gr bullets against the heavier 69 gr.ers and
had some interesting results. The 55s hold with the 69s out to 600 yards
because of one thing; velocity. With a velocity difference of 200 fps the
55seven had the same wind drift as the 69s. I was suprised by this but
I figure that Sierra's ballistics program was designed to calculate the
numbers better than I could.
I still have the A1 upper that I mentioned above If anybody would like to have it. $350 with bolt carrier etc.
I do not do ARs anymore.
Zed Stewart <zhdstew@nts-online.net>
Paloduro, Texas, USA - Sunday, June 18, 2000 at 23:44:13 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.167.136.7)
I, in mw own twisted little world, think that the barrel length should match the mission.
For my AR, I have a 20" HBar and full sized stock for the times when the length is not a problem and the accuracy is essential.
For a brush gun and tight quarters, I go with the M4 16" upper or I do have a 12" commando upper along with a colt original collasible stock.
Different strokes for different folks
Different gun for a different mission
Just my thoughts
Semper Fi.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 01:35:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.78)
Any help you gentlemen could would be greatly appreciated.
Grail
Grail <Ramius127@yahoo.com>
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 02:05:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.4.13.190)
SFC Grant Singley takes the Virginia State Championship with an M16A2, and in teams USAMU beats the Marine Corps by two X's.
Bravo, from personal experience the 1-9 will stabilize a Hornady 75- grain Boat-Tail Match. Don't know if it'll stabilize a 77 Sierra Match King (this is for targets out to 600 yards). nd ib>If you're planning on E-type silhouettes, factory 69 Federals should do OK (don't try it for real-world combat. The Fed has soft cases that a CAR-15 sometimes rips the rims off).
General all-the-time, all-around 5.56mm favorites would be either the M4 or the M16A1. The A2 is OK, just not handy for carrying all-the-time, everywhere (especially in CQB and city fighting). A cop is probably best off with an M4 or M4gery (CAR-15 knock-off). Don't pick the 11.5 with the 5 inch long fake suppressor -- it does nothing for you except shorten your rifle of 5 inches of usable twist and add to muzzle blast, flash, and noise.
55-grain Winchester Q3131 Ball (commercial M193 equivalent) in a 1-12 is a good deal for anything out to about 200- maybe 300 yards. Some of the other surplus import (South African, malaysian, etc.) is also a good deal. Heavier bullets usually mean more stable and accurate, at the expense of terminal ballistics (paraphrasing some friends' comments, the Green-tip ball is so stable it's like poking a cleaning rod through a guy. Ball is Ball).
Green-tip (5.56mm NATO 62 grainers) out of an M4 with an ACOG has been proven to hit well under "minute of man" at 600.
These are my and others' comments from both sniper-spotter and assaulter
roles.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
Fairfax, man it's hot in , Virginia, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at
02:26:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
If you are realy interested in "outing" this sniper wanna-be, simply
offer the gentleman an opportunity to prove what he is saying by firing
a .460 Weatherby from the prone position. Dont have a .460 on hand, you
say? Then I suggest that, if you apply the fundamentals of marketing to
the problem, you can sell enough tickets to the event to more than pay
for the rifle. :)
-Tom
had a customer do this one time...yup, he went to the hospital with
broken bones.
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 03:43:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
thanks in advance,... jhunne
BTW,...great site...=)
Jhunne <jhunnetaz@aol.com>
La Puente, CA., USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 04:36:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.197.21)
Dave: M4gery- LOL
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 04:36:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.146.121)
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 04:47:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.164)
www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 04:53:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.164)
Different strokes for different folks
Different gun for a different mission
Life started out simple, or so I thought, with a standard 20 inch A3 Bushmaster. Always knew that I'd put a scope on it and just do some simple squirrel shooting with that gun. Within 6 months I had two more AR15s that had gone a little off the beaten path, one went in the 24 inch space rifle direction while the other went in the compact combat direction.
Which one do I shoot the most? Due to all my squirrel shooting I stick primarily with my 17 pound boat anchor that throws the mouse gun 40grn Vmaxes into 3/4 inch for 5 shots@100yds all day long.
When I compete I throw that 20inch A3 upper on the custom lower since
it has the smooth clean trigger in it. In action rifle shooting I just
don't have the heart to shoot the hell out of a high dollar barrel so I
burn up the chrome Hbar instead. The action rifle courses I've been in
are all running from 80 yards to 200 yards distance with about 27-40 targets
per course, the 20 inch has been more worth while than the 16 inch length,
it is just easier to shoot. I'm banging 8 inch steel plates at 200 so I
am going for a bit more accuracy than a 16 is gonna offer me. I'm using
optics and the 20 "gets it." Once I get one of the Trijicon scopes I'll
probably try my carbine upper once again but I am expecting to perform
better with the 20. Damn the Reflex sights for anything beyond 150 yards
for me personally, I just can't reliably hit crap past say 150 yards. Iron
sights and magnified scopes and I'm good to go from any of the positions
out to 300.
Hopefully, once I grab up a competitive shotgun, I can get into 3 gun competition soon and the distances involved are much closer. I'm sure I'll finally find my niche with the short 16 inch length barrel, not to mention it swings better when switching over to a secondary weapon. This I know just from when I'm walking in the field and I drop the carbine to my body while switching to my sidearm.
1:9 twists, they drive me batty. Some of the 1:9 twist shooters get
great accuracy with the 69grn bullets and others don't. I am one of the
guys who get piss poor accuracy with 69grn match bullets. If I want the
accuracy I have to step down to 55grns or less and then my groups shrink.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 07:49:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.2.156)
Same method is probably used by the other manufactures to put on permanent flash suppressors and muzzle breaks.
One thing I forgot to add about the permanent attached stuff is that the muzzle crown starts to get a bit tricky to clean. Learned that lesson through first hand experience.
I'd probably lean towards a 16 inch barrel since it wouldn't have
to have a permanently attached flash suppressor for legal barrel length.
Also it would have that little added boost in powder burn time.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 08:03:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.2.156)
regards
George Filyaw
gfilyaw@5th-marine-snipers.com
George Filyaw <gfilyaw@5th-marine-snipers.com>
Burlington, NC, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 13:18:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.205.133.70)
Yes the 20" is better at long range but CQB is not long range
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 13:31:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
In reference to the above quote regarding a "sailor" being berated for not keeping up while at Bridgeport.
I don't think it is fair to indulge in a crude stereotype. Most chaplains, like myself, are former enlisted.
In fact, most chaplains know their credibility would suffer big time by dropping out and would not let that happen (unless it was a new guy who had no clue - they don't last)
I've done Bridgeport cold and summer packages, and have always kept up while mostly Marines dropped out, (all the corpsmen kept up). I was 40 at the time, and am only 5' 7" 170 to boot.
I don't consider myself a marksman, and am in fact not a good pistol shot (did qualify expert first time shooting); however, I did obtain the highest score on the rifle range the day I went out to shoot with one of the companies in my USMC infantry unit. Of course, prone targets are not the same as moving targets that try to shoot you.
Many chaplains I have known are gun owners regular guys. If you have run across the one weak one, ok, so what? I have run across many weak Marines, and have even seen a few former special forces types gone to pot.
Retired Chaplain, now police department chaplain and professor.
Dan Nichols <redcomd@hotmail.com>
Silver City, NM, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 17:55:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.166.1.50)
I concur on the Chaplain COrps. I had one Chaplain in 1/5 (around 1978) that was a USMC Plt Commander in Nam complete with a silver star. It was a big surprise to the Chaplains assistants who thought they were getting a comfy job when the Chaplain left his jeep in the Motor Pool and humped with the rest of us.
Sorry if I offended.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 18:07:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.151)
Classic Arms has a deal I think 119 for 1000 rnds of Russian NATO spec ammo.
I am new to AR 15 shooting and have a 20
Dan Nichols <redcomd@hotmail.com>
Silver City, NM, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 18:13:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.166.1.110)
Just wanted to let you all know, the PX is open for business! We do not have the site posted yet, but I can take your CREDIT CARD orders on any HS Precision stock, IOR optic, Eagle Industries gear or Proline targets. If you just can't wait till the site is up, drop me a line at:
xring@voicenet.com with your questions on pricing. I can process most orders immediately.
Scott
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 18:22:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.35)
Thanks for your response.
Now let me add something that will get me in hot water, that there are two types of chaplains: those that like ships and those that like the Corps!
Some of those ship loving, hot chow loving, warm rack loving, ice cream and movie loving chaplains, really don't like their USMC tours and do their best to avoid them.
There is my bias, I did 1/2 my career and would have loved to do it all USMC and leave the ships for those who don't like the Corps!
I am joking around, but still it is true that there are few chaplains who like both USN and USMC service equally. Usually, one takes a liking to one or the other, as they are very very different.
(Funny, I am USN former enlisted and prefer the USMC and my friend was a USMC CPL at the battle of Khe Sahn, and he prefers the ships!)
Now a question. As a AR15 novice, (I posted a question, but it looked like only 1/2 of it made it), I have a model 1 sales upper 20" HBAR with a DPMS lower. I have not shot it but the upper has about 300 rounds through it.
Classic Arms has NATO spec .223 for about 119, 55 and 62 grain. For target plinking, is this good and what grain should I get (I think my upper is 1 in 9), I will have to call model 1 sales to see if they can tell me.
Finally, for those who love USMC history, I have an article the Gazette is planning to publish on the "Evolution of the history and culture of the Marine Corps and its modern threat."
Perhaps I can post it here somewhere for those that like that sort of thing!
Dan Nichols <redcomd@hotmail.com>
Silver City, NM, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 18:23:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.166.1.110)
Mike: you get my e-mail? Oh, and you're right. The more I shoot this thing, the better it gets!
Anyone wanna buy a ticket to a collar bone breaking? Afterwords we're
raffling a 460 Weatherby ;-) You ought to hear his stories about the teflon
coated 240 grain 45 slugs that go through ANYTHING.....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
and a country boy can survive in the, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at
18:27:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
As I understand it, this quote was alleged to have been found on
a rations box written by an unknown Marine (PFC-LCPL).
Dan Nichols <redcomd@hotmail.com>
Silver City, NM, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 18:45:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.166.1.110)
I went with the brunton lite tech from binocularsetc.com. They are
excellent quality for the money - armored and water proof, BAK 4 etc. The
optics are suprisingly bright and clear and I would recommend them to anyone
looking for a compact bino.
breakpoint <breakpointx@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 18:51:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.3.204.222)
Dan Nichols:
"You have never lived until you have almost died. Life has a special meaning that only a recon man will ever know."
Direct quote from plaque given by Recon Company, CCN, 1970-71
No source given
There are probably earlier, slightly differently worded versions
of this saying out there.
Chuck Kennedy <cwkenn@lcc.net>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 19:51:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.34.50.173)
General; ON barrel lengths. There are two main considerations. The
size of the hole. for instance you would be better off with the 22 with
the 260 while the 308 doesn't make that much difference. Actually we found
21" to be the best place for the .308. On AR-15s something is magic about
20 but velocity suffers quite a lot from 26/24 to 20 with the .223.
In general common sense about how much to cut is tempered also with
the size of the case and how much powder is to be burnt. It makes no sense
at all to cut a 300 win mag to 20". But more velocity and performance is
the reason for the gun in the first place.
With a .308 the point of diminishing returns is where it turns handy
and doesn't loose much velocity... about 21" actually. Mine is cut to 20"
but that's mainly due to testing some different crowns. I started with
21" and went down. OH yes on the crowns. Was not able to tell much difference
between the so called target and just regular crowns although there might
be other reasons maybe like wear and physical damage possibilities. One
of the best shooting crowns I ever did was with a cone shaped Dremmel tool.
The prettiest are the Brownell tool
cut jobs and they also work fine.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 20:54:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
The guys at Classic Arms are pretty good folks but realy arent too
much on technical savvy. The ammo they advertise as being Russian NATO
spec, well, isnt. Its steel cased and is loaded with steel jacketed bullets.
Nothing NATO spec about it, realy. Its reliable, reasonably accurate and
the price is downright cheap, but its not top-notch as compaired to IMI,
Hertenberger or Indep. These are the brands that I would bet my rear end
on. Buy the Russian stuff and cheerfuly burn it on the range, then rezero
with some fresh IMI for serious work. Thats my theory, anyway.
Carbon 15 utility and E&E weapons for snipers (and sniperetts :) :
From what I hear from people who have bought them, the Carbon 15 rifles and pistols generaly work pretty well, and the company is good about fixing those that dont run of the box. One problem with them is the limited parts commonality with the AR family, and of course the pistol is saddled with a fundamentaly useless configuration for most any real-world application. Big "assault pistols" are hard as hell to hit things with.
*But*... it has occured to me (and others, of course) that a sniper equiped with only a bolt gun is rather vulnerable in the instance of a typical infantry firefight deveoping, much less a true CQB scenario. This concern leads to a lot of debate on not only how to equip the spotter (usualy with a M4 and as many firepower-enhancing gidgets and he can carry, like a M203, tactical nuke, whatever) but sometimes it even leads to trying to jack up the firepower capacity of the sniper rifle itself (M21/25, SVD and all that), but there are a lot of compromises that usualy have to be made in that instance, compromises that most here would balk at. So as it is now, the spotter draws the M4 "transformer" gun and the sniper totes his bolt gun and hopes nothing pops up close. Right?
So, what if our sniper team leader was equiped with a PDW? Say, an M4 that has the front sight tower cut down, a flattop upper and popup sights, M231 FPW butttock, a short magazine and a cut-down pistol grip, no foreward assist and the olde-skool CAR handguards and thin contour barrel. Get the thing so thin and short and light that its almost holsterable? Better yet, perhaps base the thing on Carbon-15 components and get the weight below 5lbs, perhaps pushing 4lbs. Keep the bolt gun in the drag bag (perhaps we have finaly found a use for them, now :) during much of the mission, then stow (perhaps holster, somehow) the PDW for the stalk in and if things go south on you, it might prove a very, very useful thing indeed for unassing the area. I mean, you probaby cant keep up with the full-house M4 for very long but at least you will be able to make some contribution to help in breaking contact and take care of things that appear almost on top of you. I was thinking about scenarios like when those guys in Mogidishu were overwhelmed while rescuing those helo crewmen. Perhaps it woudnt have helped in that specific instance but its a thought. Yeah, I know its *another* piece of gear to carry. Life is full of compromises...
-Tom
Neither a sniper nor infantry tactitian, but I play one on TV...
:)
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, South Cackylacky, USA - Monday, June 19, 2000 at 23:40:00
(ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)
Scott
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 00:07:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.71.86.188)
I am the proud owner of a Becker patrol pack. Eagle Industries has once again turned out a fine product with this 3-day pack. Good interior space, nice and comfy, lot's-o-pocket space and made in the good old US of A. My only complaint is Eagle does not make a larger variant. Many times I need a pack with a little more interior space, so I still have a large ALICE pack for humping the big loads.
Great pack.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , NY, USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 00:37:57 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.62)
ok folks, I said that I would give results to the little experiment.
Savage 12BVSS, leupold 3.5 x 10 M1 scope. Not enough elevation to
shoot out to 1,000 yds.
First the tech at brownell's told me that the eccentric inserts that came with the newly purchased burris rings would suffice.... wrong. While it did give me an additional 10" at 100yds, it was not enough. I shimmed the rear base with a peice of .050" steel. The burris rings did take the angle of the scope just fine. I got the 50" of adjustment I was looking for.
Today I zeroed the rifle in at 100yds. shot a three shot group, clover leafed them. I let a retired LE sniper shoot to see if it was a fluke , he clover leafed three as well.
Long range testing comes next week....
Just thought some might like to know...
Brock
Brock <anthony@grnco.net>
Paragould, AR, USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 01:32:37 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.60.10.21)
You've been cautioned about shimming your scope bases. Good luck and cough up the bucks for a tapered base when you can afford it.
In the long run you'll save your scope.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 02:51:54 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.184)
Just exactly what is "NATO spec. Russian Ammo"?
Is it True NATO spec., SAAMI spec., or just "Marketing Hype Spec."
What is this "Spec". (Match/Pressure/Velocity?)
Is it stamp marked with the N.A.T.O. crosshair?
Kinda sounds like an Oxymoron, or is it just me???????
Brock,
Listen to Mister Gooch, He knows of what He speaks!
Pat,
That .260/6.5mm stuff is just too cool! I'm hooked!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 03:45:37 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.201.206)
- just figured I'd take up some space w/ some UFI
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 04:44:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.131.25)
Go check out the SC review on the Badger bases. They do have a recoil
lug, but you do not need to clip-slot for its use. It mates to the forward
portion of the receiver cut. Just install the base via the provided screws
and you should be done.
Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 14:47:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
192.91.146.35)
KMS <krksmith@icehouse.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 20:28:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.203.54.99)
Hey whats up with Maadi-Griffin? Any of yous got a clue?
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 00:23:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.168)
thanks,
stickman
stickman <Sstickmman@aol.com>
northeast, TX, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 02:03:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.26)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 02:48:05 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.214.119.24)
Here is one interpretation of events:
____________________________
This info is from the Second Amendment Sisters AZ Coordinator, who
lives
in
Mesa, AZ:
Big fish to fry! It was confirmed in the local (Mesa AZ) newspaper today
that Bob Stewart the owner of ..50bmg manufacturer, Maadi-Griffin
was
arrested Friday by the BATF. Mr. Stewart was arrested in his garage
while
his wife and children were inside their home. Seized in the raid
was a
"stockpile" of weapons, including 40 guns, boxes of ammunition,
gun parts
and the 3000 names of his customers.>
The BATF claims that Mr. Stewart is a convicted felon and has been
selling
his guns and gun kits over the Internet to bypass federal firearms
laws.
And that he advertises the fact that his kits require no FFL to purchase.
Maadi-Griffin has been in business for 10 years without problems from the
BATF.
BATF agent Thomas Mangan said to the reporter, "we see no legitimate
use
for
a gun like this, unless you are in the military". He went on to
say, "no
vest in the world could protect a law enforcement officer from a gun like
this".
Mangan also said. "The kits are equipped with a part that prevents
the
gun
from operating unless the part is removed by a machinist". In accordance
with BATF regulations the kit is technically incapable of being fired.
But Mangan said that the gun is so easily retrofitted to become
operational
that
authorities felt Stewart was flagrantly violating gun regulations.
Mr. Stewart said, "I have a wife and children, friends, church and
all
that.
I am willing to die for this if I have to".
The article went on to list his assets and listed the value of his
home
at
$256,000. Sounds like asset forfeiture is next to come.
This is my summary on this story:
1. The guns were manufactured in accordance with BATF regs.
2. Maadi-Griffin bypassed a "loophole" in the regs.
3. Mr. Stewart was a "felon".
4. 3000 persons have purchased this gun.
5. Mr. Stewart has valuable assets.
I believe that the BATF found it easier and more efficient to arrest
Mr.
Stewart instead of changing BATF regulations. In the name of
bureaucratic
efficiency they will destroy this man and his family. Do you think
that
the
BATF will not do anything with the customer list?
Plan on seeing more of this in the near future.
______________________________
-Tom
is glad he didn't order one...
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 03:00:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Refresh my memory, please...what cartrige is your gun set up for currently? I would be inclined to set up the gun for .30-06 if the bolt face is correct for the Mauser case head and .300 Win Mag (or 7mm Rem Mag, if you re so inclined)if equped with a magnum bolt face. I would not butcher up the action any more than I had to complete the project. That thar action be worth some money, dude!
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 03:22:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
It didn't take Mike long to teach me that I didn't LIKE firing the 50. Not that it was rough, nasty, or whatever. It was just "not pleasurable". Still, I solemnly regret the domestic terrorism that took that option away from me. Legislation through judicial action. Sick.
It may be just me, but I think that "ATF" is best reserved for "automatic transmission fluid". Let's call the domestic terrorists what they are.
Or it could be that he IS a convicted felon that had illegal weapons.
If so though, the LOCAL LE should have busted him, not a atf team. And
if he's a bad guy, glad he got locked up. I just kind of question that
story.....
"Strict Constitutionalist" Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, June 21,
2000 at 04:12:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.136)
Oh. :)
Hm. Varmint to elk, huh? I would think even 7mm to be a bit more than ideal for gohper or the like...perhaps .260 Remington? 6.5-06? I'd look at that last one, m'self. You sure want a lot out of one rifle, though...
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, in the soon-to-be-Confederate0flagless state of , SC, USA
- Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 04:57:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)
I can't speak to the issue of Stewart being a former felon... some how I doubt that, as he wouldn't have gotten his ATF manufactures license in the first place.
"But" on the current issue (if stated facts are true) the person that makes the gun "shootable" is the maker, and there is a section in the BATF regs for independant maker to file that you've "made" a gun. There is a lot of old case hystory on Stewart's side.
The Other "BUT"... even if there is no viable case, this administration has a hystory of "Breaking" people they don't like, through the court system... the guys in the "Travel Gate" mess were cleared in less time than it took the jury to eat lunch, but they were left with "MILLIONS" of dollars of debt in legal bills!
Stewart will loose his house, his business, probably his family (through stress induced divorce), and be left a broken man.
On those 3000 names of customers... each will get a personal visit, with "Inspection priviledges", and those poor bastards that didn't file, will be in a similar mess... manufactoring firearms without a license. They'll pay the ATF tax, loose the gun, and have mebbe $3000 to $5000 in legal bills.
BAaaad Juju!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 10:19:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
If this is true, the federal government is exercising economic leverage to unfairly crush it's opponents, even when it's case is "inferior".
This is wrong, and it would be awful hard to argue otherwise.
sorry for the incomplete post
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 12:20:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Please note that I'm not anti-cop, I'm anti fed. Let the feds stay in their juristiction: DC, military posts / bases, post offices, "needful buildings", and such. And as for the constitutionality of the automatic transmission fluid itself, let's not go there. If local LE needs a hand, by all means, give it to 'em, but ONLY then!
AR question of the day: Freefloat handguard tubes. Worth it on anything other than a debticated mid range tack driver? Don't they heat up too much? Weight advantages?
Trivia question for today: what's a banana republic? Or, more precisely,
how is it that dictators, monarchies, oligopolies, etc govern their masses?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, June 21,
2000 at 17:47:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Tired of focusing your scope by looking through it quickly, adjusting, and repeating the process multiple times? I think I have a better way which makes it go faster and reduces the chances of error because of eye adjustment. This will only work if you can shoot with both eyes open and possess some mental agility, although the latter may disqualify half of the regulars due to too much time at the Sheepdip Cafe. :)
Set up and look through the scope with your right eye as normal. Then focus on the target with your LEFT eye. Next, focus the scope so it is sharp when switching which eye you are seeing with. The mental agility part is in the that last step, where you flip flop between seeing the normal target with the left eye and the magnified target with the right eye. As always, it is best to approach the final focus from being focused too far rather than too short.
This is also a useful trick when hunting. I look at the deer with the left eye, bring the (slightly fuzzy) crosshairs on top of the deer, then switch to the right eye to do the final aiming. No more swinging the rifle around trying to find the deer.
Hope this helps.
Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 19:38:32 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
Who makes commercially available rounds for the .338 Lapua? Any hints,
clues, or spoor to follow?
I haven't had a chance to get here lately, so if you could email
I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike A <moamike@ix.netcom.com>
Sunny at the moment, , WA, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 22:43:55
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.106.119)
There are some things that a woman can do in combat that a man cannot do. Here is an example of a Russian offhand shooting position that no man can get into,
http://www.clstudio.lacerta.ru:8101/fantasy/kt005.htm
It reduces the chance of shooting yourself in the foot by at least 50%
The Russians have also been hard at work developing co-ed shooting positions that take 2 people to execute. here is a sample,
http://www.clstudio.lacerta.ru:8101/comics/ary33.htm
Maybe we better rethink this thing.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 23:06:24 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.143.42.45)
It seems that many agencies had started SWAT teams, some with good reason as they dealt with dangerous felons, like the US Marshals or the FBI Hostage Rescue Team. The article criticized some of the federal agencies like BATF and IRS for forming SWAT teams because they really didn't need them, but formed their teams because they didn't want to be the only agency without one.
During congressional budget meetings various agencies were being
asked to justify their expenditures on these SWAT teams. I think that the
IRS was told that there was no way in hell they were going to get any more
funding for their team.
The BATF was under the gun because they had pulled agents away from their regular duties to form their SWAT team, hired replacement agents to carry out the normal BATF duties, spent millions equipping and training their SWAT team, and in over two years had never used it once.
Apparent scuttlebut at the BATF was that if they didn't use it they were going to loose it.
It really makes me wonder: Why does a tax collection agency need
law enforcement abilities anyway? If someone isn't paying his/her firearms
taxes the BATF should just send an accountant, not some cop wannabe.
pete r <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 23:25:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
I'm off my soap box now, leaving it warm for the next guy. Just wanted
you all to know that I'm CERTAINLY not anti-cop, anti-US or whatever. Just
a concerned individual, trying to keep his state and federal work and travel
papers in order ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, June 21,
2000 at 23:37:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.158)
On page 25 of Douglas C. Montgomery's 'Design and Analysis of Experiments',
(and a dozen other places on my book-shelf) the variance of a two factor
linear model is demonstrated to be the sum of the variances of the factors
plus two times the covariance of the factors.
V(y1 + y2)=V(y1)+ V(y2) + 2Cov(y1,y2)
If the factors are independent (thus the covariance equals zero), and the variability of each of the factors is one, the sum of of the variability of those factors is two. QED.
This is so elementary as to not be worth discussing.
If Mike arrived at this by experience and observation, he is both
experienced and observant. Thus, when he discusses these subjects, he should
be listened to.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, June 21, 2000 at 23:39:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.55)
338 Lapua is being released by Black Hills. Great ammo.
Bravo, I know you are not anti cop. This whole mess scares the hell out of me also. I am the one with 50's. Every gun I own is on a ban list or is on a list for a possible ban. Funny thing is none of my evil blackguns ever shot anyone, other than the line of duty.
I have to agree completely with Pablito, no way Stewart would have gotten a permit to manufacture if he was a felon. If they screwed up like that someone should lose their job.
Rick, you can shoot the M107 left handed but it is about as nice
as putting it between your legs. The thing really shoots well though. I
have a question for you. What idiot came up with the idea you guys would
carry a 50 by yourself? The only way I would deploy behind the enemy lines
is if I had two other guys and we split it up. One with the bbl, one with
the lower and one with the ammo. We would all have other long guns so we
could defend ourselves. Otherwise you might as well just say shoot me.
I have visions of the biggest dude around in patrol carry with a 50. If
you want to hear where this came from email me.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 00:01:03 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.196.41)
It would appear that the front scope mounting hole on your Remington
is not deep enough. Simply get a #31 drill and drill on through. Then take
a 6x48 tap and...
DONT DO IT! JUST KIDDING! :)
You will note that the front hole is directly over the chamber. Unless
you want convert your rifle into some sort of roll-yer-own pressure test
gun, just shorten one of the screws a bit. In fact, you need to make sure
that one of them isnt already a bit shorter than the others for this very
reason.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 00:10:49 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
Thanks
Semper Fi
Ben <ben_aubin@hotmail.com>
Lakeland, FL, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 00:55:15 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.27.88.125)
Mike: Just smile. You gettin' e-mail now?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, June 22,
2000 at 01:27:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.249)
Nice shot!
Another "hot air" bag of poop goes up in smoke! :)
Pizza, what Pizza, we ain't got no steenkin' Pizza!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 01:36:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
I just bought the Badger rings and tapered bases for my new 700P also. I ran into the same problem you did on mounting the base. What I did was take a pair of vise grips and put the screw head in the vise grip. I then took my course knife sharpening stone with honing oil and just ground down the screw, checking it often to make sure I have it at the right length so it won't bottom out on the barrel. While doing this, make sure you hold the screw at a 90 degree angle to the stone as to not grind the screw at an angle. Also, make sure you hold the vise grips by the jaws so the screw will not chatter across the stone. Approximately 1/16th of an inch or a little less is all that is needed. From the info I have recieved from the guys here on the web site, we have made a good choice in ring and base combination. Good shooting.
Russell
Russell <rrrdean@mindspring.com>
Fort Worth, Texas, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 01:48:31 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.59.43)
Ben,
Do youself a big favor and buy a data manual or several. They are
absolute requirements in reloading unless you enjoy weapons blowing up
in your face. My personal favorites are Hodgdon and Sierra.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 02:01:30
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.187)
Lets get some things straight. First, you emailed me and asked me
what I thought of Jarret's post on Distributive Statistics. Your thoughts
on it were " Do I detect the aroma of beef by-products?"
I thought he was just being sarcastic.
As an afterthought, since you stated months ago that you were a
math student, I asked you what you thought of the 1 + 1 = 2 debate. No
where did I use the word Drubbing. Even though that is what happened. You
replied that you would have flunked the lot of us.
I can take that from a confused college student with a head full of numbers and no common sense without blinking an eye.
The source of my formula, came from several places. Frank Grubs "
Statistical Measures of accuracy for Riflemen and Missle Engineers" amd
William Davis " Determining Rifle Accuracy" NRA Handloaders Guide 1969
edition. These were both in easy to understand follow the example type
lanugage. In addition, There was an article in the 1983 Edition of Gun
Digest by David Leestma, a Doctor of Theoretical Physics or more Properly,
"Docteurs Throisieme Cycle" which also gave the exact same formula dealing
with this subject specificaly. In addition, Mr. Boucher said that it was
the same formula that his agency uses to determine the average accuracy
expectancy from 2 or more variables, so if I am wrong, I am not alone.
It is just a hunch but I think you have applied the wrong formula
to this specific problem. I could not make heads or tails of your formula
I have never even heard of "covarience" and have no idea how to get it.
Unlike some on this site, I am always eager to learn new things. Perhaps
if you could plug in the numbers and reshow your formula I could find some
merit to your analysis.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 02:19:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.56)
Steve, I emailed you on this. I hope that old thread just dies. I have nmo problem with you doing the moa thing the way you do. My way is a new way that I like better. I dont care who is wrong. My way works for me. Your way works for you.
Now if I can get these articles mistake free before I send them.
I should have spent more time in class and less on t
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 03:11:39 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.193.57)
Damn, and I thought the kids would go to bed without fighting tonight too Honey.
Wrong!
Field results beat sterile egghead testlab/theoretical garbage in
this line of work. Play with the E = MC2 paper stuff , then see if it works
(Validation?)in the real world. Oh-Tay??
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 03:25:58 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.182)
I must post this as another answer as to why Mr. Stewart has a felony conviction. I posted earlier about his trouble with the BATF and fixing a scope mount on a illigally modified AR. This may not be true. The first post was based on statements of Mr. Stewart's associates.
But, this next quote is from the transcripts of his sentencing:
"
The facts in this case are undisputed. Mr. Stewart, a gun collector,
was requested by undercover police officers to obtain and deliver to them
five World War II era "sten" machine guns, purportedly to be sold to another
gun collector. Mr. Stewart purchased gun kits through a mail order magazine,
constructed the guns, and delivered them as specified. At the sentencing
hearing, Mr. Stewart argued that he should receive a downward departure
under § 5k2.11. This section, known as the "intended use" exception,
allows a downward departure where the conduct does "not cause or threaten
the harm or evil sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the offense
at issue." United States Sentencing Comm'n Guidelines Manual, § 5k2.11,
at 368-69 (1994). Mr. Stewart argued that his conduct fell within this
exception because he thought the guns were going to a legitimate collector,
and because the type of gun involved is not an effective weapon and is
generally purchased solely as a collector's item. For these reasons, Mr.
Stewart did not believe that any violent crimes and/or loss of human life
would result from his sale of the weapons.
"
Perhaps I am standing corrected, and if so, were all big boys and
girls, except some nerdy math kids. (P.S. Nerds: Shoot a gun thousands
of times for a number of years, and then tell ol' Mike how right he really
is.)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 03:40:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.4.196)
Confused math student with a lot of numbers in his head?
You got that half-right. No numbers. I calculate them, use them, then forget them. Sometimes I forget them before I use them and have to recalculate. Irritating.
I'll admit to being confused. I look at thousands of mathematical proofs a year but your last paragraph would leave Sir Isaac Newton himself scratching his head.
Let's see if I get this right: Despite your having fluffed up your feathers and presented yourself as the greatest statistical expert since G.E.P.Box, you know nothing about statistical measurements of variability. So you have a formula that you don't state, haven't derived, and can't prove with a dependent variable that you don't understand. You then consider yourself such a clear-eyed possesor of THE TRUE BELIEF that you use that formula to publicly embarass yourself by beating a knowledgable guy like Mike over the head with it.
When you answer a knock on the door, and find a couple of guys in cheap suits selling religious magazines, it's o.k. to give them fifty cents to get rid of them. They'll insist that you take the magazines, but DO NOT read them. You're the type that has an ephiphany. Two weeks later you'll find yourself wearing a cheap suit selling magazines.
If you want to take this to a statistics site somewhere, we can go
one fast, hilarious round. I'm back to keeping my eyes open and my mouth
shut at SC.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 11:59:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.74)
Has anyone shot one much so I can have an idea of the MOA I might receive with practice and also the sound suppression?
An email would be appreciated since I dont get to read the board as often as I would like during the day.
Thanks.
RTschiemer@aol.com
Robert
Robert Steven Tschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
Little Rock, AR, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 13:06:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.206)
Have you talked to Jim yet?
They built a TPR M40A4 for me with out suppressor and did a sweet job. When you call him have ready what distances you will want to shoot, what barrels you might want and what ammunition you plan to use, ie. sub-sonic, 220 or 250 grain projectile. When using a supressed weapon you must take in the consideration that you will have to use different ammo and have a different twist rate on your pipe that standard .308 shooter will use.
I love my TPR and the A-4 stock, although heavy is a comfortable stock to shoot
Call Jim at TAC-ORD, 1-208-288-1450. He will talk at length with you on your project and desired goals
Semper Fi
Kush out
Kush <snak@pce.net>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 14:03:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.197)
All the uproar over some statistical applications and the thinly
veiled ad hominem attacks are not productive. I don't know what it was
all about, but I got the feeling that Mike's abilities were being challenged.
Just watch the man shoot and your doubts will be resolved. Shooting is,
at its highest level of abstraction, an intensly mathmatically driven endeavor.
It is about physics. Period. That said, it is the artist behind the trigger
that places the bullet where it was intended. Statistics have to do with
probability theory. For that reason, when heavy rifles are employed for
extreme range hard target interdiction, one operational parameter calls
for 3 rifles to be simultaneously employed with each weapon firing
James R. Jarrett <jrjarrett@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 14:26:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.16.193.130)
'lito
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of the importance of this topic, I'm deviating from usual
procedure to send you yesterday's Shotgun News column. A prettier
copy is on Shotgun News page.
-------------
'No Gun Rights,' DOJ Says
By Neal Knox
WASHINGTON, D.C. (June 20)--Last Tuesday's oral argument on U.S.
v. Emerson in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals was the biggest gunfight
since the O.K. Corral.
The Clinton Justice Department clearly and succinctly spelled out
their
position on the Second Amendment: You have no Constitutional right
to buy, sell or continue to possess any firearm.
At issue is Lubbock, Tex., Judge Sam Cummings' carefully written
opinion striking down Federal law prohibiting possession of a firearm by
someone under a restraining order--even if, as in the case of Dr. Timothy
Emerson's routine order issued during a divorce, there was no threat of
violence.
Judge Cummings found that section 922(g)(8) of the Gun Control Act
violates both the Fifth Amendment's "due process" protection (since Emerson
didn't know he could not possess a gun) as well as the Second Amendment.
Judge Cummings' opinion went further than any judge in modern history,
declaring the Second Amendment to guarantee an individual right,
and stating "firearms possession is a valuable liberty."
The argument--which was allowed to go 1 1/2 hours--was the longest
in years, veteran court observers said, and the judges were unusually well
prepared.
They peppered the government's attorneys with tough questions, though
that does not necessarily indicate how they will rule.
Judge William L. Garwood, the senior judge (appointed by Reagan),
seemed startled by the government's position.
He said (according to radio talk show host Tom Gresham's report):
"You are saying that the Second Amendment is consistent with a position
that you can take guns away from the public? You can restrict ownership
of rifles, pistols and shotguns from all people? Is that the position of
the United States?"
Meteja (attorney for the government): "Yes"
Judge Garwood demanded: "Is it the position of the United States
that persons who are not in the National Guard are afforded no protections
under the Second Amendment?"
Meteja: "Exactly."
Meteja added that National Guard members could only possess guns
issued or used in the Guard.
When Meteja said he was unaware of any Federal definition of militia,
Judge Garwood snapped that it's in Sec. 311 of Title 10, U.S.C. (which
defines the unorganized militia as all able-bodied citizens not members
of the formal State Guard or National Guard).
Both Judge Garwood and Judge Harold DeMoss, Jr. (appointed by Bush)
challenged Meteja's interpretation of the Supreme Court's 1939 Miller
decision, which upheld the 1934 National Firearms Act on grounds
that there no evidence had been presented that short-barreled shotguns
like Miller's were normal militia equipment.
Judge DeMoss pointed out that Emerson's Beretta 92F 9mm is the standard
U.S. Army pistol.
Linda Thomas, a Houston gun rights activist and recent law school
graduate, told me immediately after the hearing that Judge DeMoss also
raised a critical Tenth Amendment and Commerce Clause question.
"I have a 16-gauge shotgun in my closet at home. I have a 20-gauge
shotgun. I also have a .30-caliber deer rifle at home. Are you saying these
are 'in or affecting interstate commerce?"
Meteja: "Yes."
The judges pointed out that in U.S. v. Lopez and last month's U.S.
v.
Morrison decision, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the gun-free
schools act and the violence against women act, on grounds that both exceeded
Congress' powers under the Commerce Clause.
Linda also noted that Judge Robert M. Parker (a Clinton appointee)
commented "You shouldn't let it bother your sleep that Judge Garwood and
I, between us, own enough guns to start a revolution in most South American
countries."
She told me that he may have been simply indicating to the largely
pro-gun rights audience that he wasn't "anti-gun." Other observers agreed,
saying Judge Parker occasionally "rolled his eyes" over pro-Second Amendment
arguments made by Crooks (Emerson's attorney) and Alabama Deputy Attorney
General Chuck Cooper, who argued for Emerson.
All the judges raised questions about whether a restraining order
could deny gun ownership if the subject were ruled "dangerous." That narrow
question could result in Emerson's conviction being overturned without
addressing the Second Amendment issues.
Emerson would then have no reason to appeal, and Second Amendment
defenders could not.
However, Emerson's Lubbock trial attorney, David Guinn, told me he
did not believe the Fifth Circuit would decide the case on procedural grounds.
"I don't think they will run from the Second Amendment issue," Guinn said this morning. The ruling can come any time this year.
------------------------------------------------------------
And the Klinton-istas said they only wanted to take away the guns from the bad guys... I guess you guys know where that puts us... Very Baaad!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 16:01:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
The third part of his original post, "the difference between a 1
MOA shooter and 1 MOA rifle and a 1/2 MOA rifle and a 1 MOA shooter translating
into 3 or 4 MOA difference at 200 yards is a false statement." I gave him
several chances to correct himself and he refused to do so. I dare say
that even you, with your superior knowlege can prove it with a formula
or on the shooting bench. Mikes inability to admit he is wrong about such
a simple thing, tells me alot about his personality. and he is not one
that I would want instructing me about anything to do with accuracy.
Pablito shares the same personality defect. It is very common among
LE. An elitist attitude I think it is called.
Those guys may know alot but I will not drink their KOOL-AID every
time it is offered.
I am willing to let this thread die. I am not willing to admit defeat.
Not yet.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 16:44:52 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.168)
You argued that the issued metric cam (308M) with the M3-LR would
track the 168 SMK, and were wrong... and it's been proven by tons of guys
that shoot this scope... and Leupold, who finely issued a new cam to track
the 168.
Where did you get your "scientific" information? From shooting that
scope... Nope, from getting data from someone else that had one.,.. nope...
you had never even seen one, had no idea of the come-ups, but you declared
your an expert, and went out on a limb, and fell on your dumb ass... and
it's still sore after all this time.
Where did you get all your expertise on the M3-LR... why from the
back pages of the Sierra Vol 4 handloading manual (which is in yards)...
that's real expertise!
We all stand in awe of your vast experence with M3 scopes... not.
You need to put some liniment on your brused feelings, and get on
with your empty life...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 17:01:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Our little spat started when you said that the the metric cam of the VARi-X 111 was designed for the M118LR 175gr. at 2682 FPS.
I disagreed with that and said that it would not track at that velocity. The 175 gr needs to be running at 2600. NOT 2682! You will be hitting nothing but sky if you run them that fast and expect 39 MOA elevation to put the thing on at 900 meters distance.
I did say that you could use the 168 gr. bullet with the metric cam provided that you read the cam as yards instead of meters. But you would have to slow the velocity way down to something like 2500 fps. Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me. but it can be done.
This is all in the archives, anyone who wants to determine exactly
what was really said can look it up. I am not going to. My life is not
that empty.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 18:00:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.168)
The first link with photos is, http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=41689&a=6807952
The thread I found this on was over in the AR15.com forums and it
lists the goodies one can find in this lower.
http://forums.ar15.com/Forum12/HTML/002802.html
B.
Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 18:04:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.0.6)
"Mikes inability to admit he is wrong about such a simple thing, tells me alot about his personality. and he is not one that I would want instructing me about anything to do with accuracy. "
I watched through my own binos as Mike whacked a "chest sized" round gong (sorry guys, the dimensions aren't public info) at a measured 850 yards with a CAR type, iron sights, and standard issue SS109 (I think that's right type ammo, isn't it Mike?) ammo. Oh, and I KNOW for a fact that the wind was WAY screwy, it screwed ALL the guys up on the line, we had sniper rifles with scopes.
Now, when YOU can achieve that same feat, let me know, and I'll start taking classes from you. In the Corps, we didn't shoot that far, and we had A2's. I, for one, would like to see a little less of YOUR elitist attitude. Try being a logical rat. Rats don't care WHY the ship they're on is sinking, they take off! No ego problems there!
If you're going to persist in making public affronts to top of the line men, then I have to wonder what YOUR reasons are. It's not like anyone of us is going to say "well, Stevie says Mike is a bad teacher, so I'm not gonna learn from him". Gimme a break.
James: right on man, it's ALL physics. With a little of that "real deal" skill ;-)
To all: Patron 'Lito just illustrated for everyone how dictators
rule. By law. They pass it, if you don't like it, too bad. That's actually
a better example than I could have made up. Let's hope that we (the good
guys and strict constitutionalists) beat the bad guys in the courts. I'd
hate to be forced into trying to beat them on the streets.
Brew Master Bravo, the strict constitutionalist <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, June 22,
2000 at 18:07:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
How could disagree with it, when you didn't even know the scope or the come-ups? You made up your numbers.
And if you think the 168 will track the metric cam, I'd love to see the graphs. If you are that sloppy with numbers, how'd you have the jobs you claim?
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 18:11:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Looking for a recommendation on a good aftermarket 10/22 smith. I want a real shooter for $500 or less (I already have the scope).
So far, I've found the Gunsmoke website (not taking any new business ) and Jim Clark.
I had looked at the AMT variant due to the all steel reciever, but
just heard they wen't OOB.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 18:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
I found an excellent source for understanding the historical development of the right to keep and bear arms, by individuals, is a book by Stephen P. Halbrook entitled "That Every Man Be Armed" (ISBN: 0945999380).
This is a MUST READ for anyone interested in arguing for the individual's right to keep and bear arms.
Regards,
Steve
Steve <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 18:56:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 15.254.49.1)
Your Badger Base- Badger sends extra long screws with because we
had some trouble with a run of Remington receivers. They had deep countersinks
on the screw holes and sometimes you would only get
1or 2 threads engaging, and if you torqued them a little to much
they would strip out.
If you ever have problems with Badger Ordnance products please contact
me by email
badgerord@aol.com. If you need new screws just say the word.
I hope that shortening the screws was not a big hassle.
Thank you
Martin
Martin <badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 20:10:47 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.12.255.45)
To all, I agree that an understanding the math-type logic will help you understand the principals involved in long range shooting, HOWEVER as my SOTG instructor on The Rock loved to say, "it's the nut behind the butt that puts the shot in the black".
Also, please, the M3 cam issue is as dead as it can get, stop beating that old horse. If you don't like the cams that come with the scope, talk to Garth at Leupold, get some blank cams and engrave your own damn elevation settings!
Ah,much better, please resume the excellent converstaions about long range shoting.
Semper Fi.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo, NY, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 20:15:30 (ZULU) (your
host address: 136.183.157.33)
First off I sent the email with the hopes of calming this boring little thread down. I could care less who is right or wrong on this minor issue. I know what I have seen. Right or wrong it is what I have seen and not read about. You see I probably shoot more than most here, with the exceptions of Rick, Gooch, and a few others. You not being one of the exceptions.
I make you this offer, you develop a true shooting/sniper test and we see who knows what. What do you think about Ricks challenge to Trigger 50? Put up or shut up although it would be best we never meet. Search the archives big mouth if your little brain can not remember what Rick's offer was.
If you would like a contest of something less let me know. What I have learned about you is that you are not worth knowing. You can not let simple things go and hide behind the internet. If you have a problem with any of this too bad. I have learned many things from many people here, just not anything of value from you. Quote some more magazine articles, but please dont read something I wrote and quote it incorrectly. I know you would never read something I wrote because we disagreed and I am on the list. How many are on it now?
As for my teaching ability I offer to teach you some manners anytime. Now you have something to talk about via email for years. Me until we meet it is over.
Bravo, it was SS109 ammo, from europe. Shoots about 2moa in my CAR15.Wind was a pain that day. It took a few rounds to hit it. Wish I had a steady rest instead of that small spotting scope. It kept moving on me.
James, a minor disagreement from a a Big Mouth bASS.
CDC, thanks for the support, wow I am glad I did not tick you off.
What a way with words. I completely agree with Bravo/Brewmaster about the
Pay Per View thing. You slay!
Pablito, I remember that disagreement you had with Syeve. He bugged me with emails about it. He said I agreed with him and you contacted me. I told him to get a life and leave me alone about it. I forgot about it until todays post. Now I ask you a question. How is it that you and I have disagreed on many things and still we keep a friendship? I know that answer already. You are a man and so am I. We can agree to disagree and still be friends. James J. and I are great friends and often disagre on many things. We jokje about kicking each others butt but anyone that would say something bad about him would not like my reaction. Oh well great to know men who are able to disagree without being insulting. I doubt someone who posted all this hate would stand toe to toe with me and say the same things. Funny anyone have a doubt I would.
Undude/Mike and sorry this came to this
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 20:32:20 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.193.161)
I went to a party, Mom
and remembered what you said.
You told me not to drink, Mom
so I had a sprite instead.
I felt proud of myself, Mom
the way you said I would,
that I didn't drink and drive, Mom
though some friends said I should.
I made a healthy choice, Mom
and your advice to me was right
as the party finally ended, Mom
and the kids drove out of sight.
I got into my car, Mom
sure to get home in one piece,
I never knew what was coming, Mom
something I expected least.
Now I'm lying on the pavement, Mom
And I hear the policeman say,
"The kid that caused this wreck was
drunk,"
Mom, His voice seems far away.
My own blood's all around me, Mom
as I try hard not to cry.
I can hear the paramedic say, Mom
"This girl is going to die."
I'm sure the guy had no idea, Mom
while he was flying high,
because he chose to drink and drive, Mom
now I would have to die.
So why do people do it, Mom
Knowing that it ruins lives?
And now the pain is cutting me, Mom
like a hundred stabbing knives.
Tell sister not to be afraid, Mom
tell daddy to be brave,
and when I go to heaven, Mom
put "Daddy's Girl" on my grave.
Someone should have taught him, Mom
that its wrong to drink and drive.
Maybe if his parents had, Mom
I'd still be alive.
My breath is getting shorter, Mom
I'm getting really scared.
These are my final moments, Mom
and I'm so unprepared.
I wish that you could hold me Mom,
as I lie here and die.
I wish that I could say I love you, Mom
So I love you and good-bye.
Sorry to take up the space but I thought that this may be worth it.
A misty eyed Bolt gets another Kleenex, out
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 21:39:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.185.248)
This whole(hole?)thing started over something so unimportant in shooting. What a waste of time.
Well back to Long Range Shooting.
Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 22:20:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 64.12.105.167)
I'm not a benchrester (not countin' a one year stint some 30+ years ago), and don't play one on TeeVee, and I'm sittin here in my "Sneakup" blue jeans, so camo is out... but I figgure that if it has a magazine, I try to use it, unless there's big enuff difference, and there is usually not.
Haven't found the 30 cals make that much difference, bolt or gas.
'lito
UnDude...
I can't think of much we DO agree on ('cept, maybe Blond women)...
and your ghillie suit is real UGLY!... but I'll buy you brewskis and cheeseburgers
in your favorite dump, anytime :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 22, 2000 at 23:54:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
You e-mail me your snail mail address, and in two weeks I'll send you a ton of hard copy of the info you "DON'T" have, and all the little graphs and charts... and wait for that appoligy that will never come!
This September, when you come down to Storm, why don't you bring some ammo for your '03-A4, and some money :)) I think there's a lot of guys here, that would like to see you shoot :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 00:08:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Thanks.
Pat T
Pat T <patidwelljr@juno.com>
Upland, Ca, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 00:30:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.26.216.127)
If there is anything I misquoted on your post, I apologize. I know I should have done the cut and paste thing again. In fact I did do it a couple of weeks ago, my memory is still fresh from the last time. If I didn't get it right, again I apologize.
Why don't you go back through the archives starting with the post
you made just before the one that I made mentioning the stalking Boo Boo.
Try to read objectivley, and then decide which of us has the most
terrible manners.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 00:32:18 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.212.148.181)
I have seen a couple of guys at a range in New Philadelphia, OH that do benchrest shooting and what they do is that they load their cartridges right there on the firing bench just before they shoot it. But one thing that cought my attention was the fact that they would, on purpose, allow the overall length to be greater by pushing the bullet in the cartridge just enough so that it does not fall off. After that, they would place the cartridge in the rifle, push it in the chamber using the bolt and let the lands in the rifling actually seat the bullet within the cartridge. Those guys swear that THAT was they way to go too... I dunno... maybe they are right... but perhaps there might be salvation for them for they appear not to weigh their primers.... >:)
But hey.. benchrest shooting that way may have hidden advantages. It might just be suited for the production of artificial diamonds... with that level of anal retention, sticking a piece of coal up their ass just might turn it into a diamond.
AresP
P.S. The same guys, with a scarcely concealed bravado and with an
out-of-my-way-for-I-am-walking-in-big-steps attitude, claim that they can
put 10 consecutive rounds through the same hole at 100 meters (or chuck
a bullseye in a Kansas tornado as one put it). I have not seen any of their
claims come true but hey... who am I to talk...
EOF
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 00:35:04 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.222.165)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 00:39:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Before you warriors decide to call off this BS and all have a six
pack and shoot out the lights... bottle some of that hormone and send it
down here. I'm a little short since the FMJ took one of my nuts off! I
remember how it feels though...this damn Internet causes people to get
misunderstood and bent that would talk it out face to face. It's a wonderful
way to share information but We're beginning to sound like those Snipers
in that damn movie
that kid was watchin 500 times...running around in the bush shouting
at each other while the enemy is closin in! I don't even understand the
argument(bein too dumb myself)but I'd bet things would be polite as hell
if we's all together in the same bar.
The enemy is out there! that-a-way! These little BS threads start
over nothing and settle nothing. IF your purpose is to hear somebody admit
he's wrong or kiss your ass then your hangin out with the wrong crowd.
Let alone some SOB that can hit a 6" bull at 1000 yards. He's damn sure
entitled to his own opinion in my book.
I been arguing with everybody in sight for 50 years and ain't conviced
anybody of anything yet!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 00:53:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
It seems that the black powder gang just bearly starts the bullet in the brass.
Bench resters either seat touching or just off the lands.
The 'Schutzenfest' (sp) bunch, stuff their bullets completely into the rifling and gently place a charged case (the SAME case) into the chamber (in the SAME orientation).
I have tried near the lands and spec. length in my (Ruger) and AR-10(T). I have no choice with the AR-10 due to the mag, but there appears to be little if any difference with the RUGER (some will say that's not surprizing as nothing will make a Ruger shoot. There are times I ... want ... to agree).
It seems to boil down to, "What ever works fer you..." and your particular piece.
My half a penny's worth, if that much...
Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 02:21:30
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.131.24)
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 02:31:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.100.170.90)
PHOENIX- In a move that has set the government's case back into next month, Robert Stewart has been released on his own recognizance from federal custody.
Judge Lawrence Anderson granted the release when the government failed to prove that Stewart was a danger and a flight risk.
Stewart will be allowed to continue his enterprise within limits "so long as he doesn't break the law.
There was also an amended complaint that was filed by the government at the last minute but was denied by the court.
The government's attorney said that Stewart was a danger due to his strong "second amendment views."
But the Judge wasn't buying it.
Stewart stated that it would be hard to continue his business since the ATF has taken many of his records and paperwork.
Robert Stewart, husband and father of three, is a Free Man again
- for now.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 03:18:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.8.130)
On Stewart being a felon, he was, for illegaly selling Stens to undercover agents. He did not have a manufacturers license, he made kits that did not require a license. He always made sure that there were no weapons on his premises. Odd that they suddenly found some.
Oh crap! Does that mean I'm next? What is the difference between an LEA and a regulatory agancy. Can you spell FBI and BATF?
Mike they give it to the smallest guy because he is the smallest target! I know a guy who is only 5'4" (just big enough to be in Spec Ops) and weighed about 120. He carried an old Haskins (Daisy) for 2 weeks in the field. Thought he was going to die! If you break up the weapon and one guy gets lost your weapon is now no good. Food for thought. It s**ks to be the gun bearer though!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 03:23:53 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.204.22)
Steve/NATO WTF? - my Fed GM2 is going at 2670fps'ish and I am tracking
in accordance w/ Recon Econ's SOTIC "help book"'s bullet drop table for
the M118LR @ 2600fps,
so I guess the sky is full of holes?
'lito how are the tapered rings going?
Scott/PeteR don't read the first installment - make sure Marius sends
you the final (or I look like a bigger idiot than normal)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 03:38:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.140.92)
The OAL (Overal All Length) Gauge works like a charm and gives an accurate reading of chamber depth. Seating the bullet depth to a fraction of an inch less than the chamber depth gets about 1/4 MOA better accuracy with my rifle. Not enough to write home about, but it certainly helps at long ranges.
I seat my 300 Win Mag 0.035 down from the measured chamber length. My chamber with a Nosler 180gr Ballistic Tip bullet measures an OAL of 3.590". Subract 0.035 for an OAL of 3.555. The SAMMI OAL specs for a 300 Win Mag is 3.340. So, my round is a bit longer than spec, but gives a bit more accuracy. (300 Win Mags are a little finicky on accuracy, although very accurate, but I believe it is due in part to chamber depths.)
Remember that each bullet, due to its style, will seat differently such that each bullet type must be measured for proper seating depth. Also remember that it can be dangerous to seat the bullet touching the lands, unless you account for the added pressure that will give when determining the amount of powder to use.
ALWAYS BUILD UP TO THE POWDER AMOUNT THAT YOU WANT TO USE BY STARTING AT LEAST 10% LOWER!!! AND NEVER EXCEED THE BULLET MANUFACTURERS LISTED MAXIMUM OR MINIMUM AMOUNT OF POWDER FOR A GIVEN BULLET AND BULLET WEIGHT!!!
If you are dicking around with chamber length, I would strongly recommend at least 15% down, but no lower than a safe load. Yes, some loads can be dangerous if the amount of powder is too low. Check the loading manual you are using for any warnings on minimums.
The AOL Gauge is very easy to use, fairly fool-proof, and costs only about $30. Read about it here: http://www.stoneypoint.com/oal.htm
My 2 cents.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 03:49:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.8.130)
This past weekend I saw a modification done to a friends AR by Badger
Ordnance that permanently cures this problem.
Badger installs a set of Stainless steel guides and man was it rock
solid and you could just slide the pins out, easy as pie. The modification
was invisible from the out side.
My buddy thinks it cost about $60.00, he had a bunch of other work
done and was not certain of the cost. I found badgers e-mail address in
today’s post and thought I should share this. badgerord@aol.com
Fox
Fox <m4carbine@aol.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 04:15:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.205.21)
Who ever the Goverment Attorney was that said that needs to be fired. Fuck him.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 06:07:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.162)
www.sierratimes.com/arjj062200.htm
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 06:27:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.162)
"Where do you guys get the time to do all this shooting sh*t?"
Well. you send the ol' lady out to get a full time job (and maybe work on the weekends), and teach the kid to handload ;)
Kevin...
The alligators have been hungry... I got three computers apart on
the kitchen table... and I'm behind on everything.
I expect that cutting a taper in the rings will take some time,
cuz theirs a bit of trial and error.
The reason the M118-LR tracks well, is that Lake City runs it's chrono
traps, so the velocity is at 78 feet, and the rest of the world talks "muzzle
velocity"... and Lake City uses a 22", gas vented barrel.
But when the Army spec'ed the M3-LR, the knew it would be shot from
a long bolt gun, and so set up the scope for 2685. And as "Sinister" Dave
Liwanag also pointed out some time ago... The final ammo runs at 2685 from
a full length bolt gun. So you get holes in the target, not the sky (or
the dirt).
Sounds like Stewart has a good judge, and if "Web surfing" is all the ATF has to do to get cases, maybe they have too much staff, and too little to do. I'm old enuff to remember when they only collected whiskey and tobacco taxes, and didn't have anything to do with guns... They (like several other Fed agencies) are out of control.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 10:36:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Rick,
Why is the little guys always had to carry the biggest guns??(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 13:21:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Gooch; IT is frightening who they consider their enemy. I'm enjoying many years of being considered a enemy of the state, but am gratified that they finally have came out of the closet and vindicated me to those who thought I was paranoid radical when I suggested this about 1959.
Grunt; There's nothing wrong with the 7mm Magnum. If you were to
test the .308 and 30-06 on the same day you would probably wonder why you
would be just as well off with the shorter action and lighter ammo of the
.308. If you're hunting Elk Moose of Griz. The 7mm Mag will do the job
but I'd take a .300 win mag or .338 for my money. The 30-06 belongs in
there too somewhere with heavy bullets. (Heavy on the .338 for Griz.) I
had a .375 H&H that was nice for that purpose. For Elk, Mule deer and
sheep with plains whitetails. The 25-06,.280,.270, 7mm mag,(30-06. /.308)
would be my pick in that order. For accuracy the 25-06 or .280 will usually
outperform the Magnums because of the case on out of box ammo.
I should say that I currently use the .308 on all that just because
I got tired of trying to keep all that extra reloading equip around and
I want a .308 for long range.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 13:23:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
They have probably been surfing them since the Dems hit the White House.. The best defense is to invite the entire police department, maybe the FD, EMS and anyone else respected within a 20 sq mile area, to a party at your house..show them every gun you have, with the appropriate paperwork. Let them all know that you follow the laws of the land, believe in the constitution, and feel it's an obligation to speak up when something does not ring out as right.
When six federal agents come to your house and find nothing wrong, they have two choices...leave or plant something. If they plant something, you have 50-60 people involved in local government that might show up to defend you (and the second amendment..now that might almost be worth fighting for).
It's a damn shame we have to think this way, but these are the times and we are facing the consequences of our actions as a public...be pro-active, use the legitimate sources of law enforcement to protect you (and give them beer)....most of them are OK, if a bit over-inflated.
OH, and fair warning...
While you guys are arguing about whose math theory is less insulting,
I've been practicing. I'm a little guy without access to a long range facility...so
I'm probably gonna come in last at Storm this September...but I'll be the
one that learned EVERYTHING possible, and every year, I'll be better.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 14:41:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Seriously, though, the BATF and FBI used to tell everyone that they were only after the "militia nuts" and "wackos". I guess they simply changed their definition of "nuts" and "wackos" to include all who stand for America. You no longer can be for gun rights without being considered a threat. "Why else would someone want to have a gun if they were not a threat?"
The FBI has always researched who might try a violent overthrow of the US, and they became very good at it. The Internet makes their research that much easier.
With the federalization of our local law enforcement, they now have incredible power to harrass anyone they please and plenty of cops to help them.
I believe there is a huge effort to remove guns from the American people, and those doing so will use every incremental tool they can, including harrassing manufacturers of firearms and equipment. Next, harrassment of those on the Mr. Stewarts customer list.
BATFi <BATF@Feds.gov>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 15:53:05 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
Wild Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 18:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
First: You 're not a BATFink looking to raid the place are ya?
If not, look here:
http://www.watsonsweapons.com/
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 18:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
Mistah Gooch: On this one we see completely eye to eye. And since you quite eloquently stated it, I won't, but whole heartedly second your sentiment.
Thanks to all who responded to my OAL question. What I took home from it? If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Hey, makes sense to me!
John, you get half credit. The 351M was a design dept stillborn "shouldabeen".
The Windsor can be purchased decent in about 2% of the time. The R series
'Stang, Vortech supercharged from the factory (and nitrous ready) is about
it, but it can be built to run 600 horses cheap and easy. The Cleveland
however is FINE! Only 2 production heads in history can outbreath their
blocks. The Cleveland 4V heads and the 426 Street hemi. The small economy
2V Cleveland heads have better flow than the largest factory Chev 350 heads.
Go figure. Yeah, I know, just a joke. But this is important and should
be cleared up.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
no conspiracy theory here! Stand for the, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000
at 19:26:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
go to:
http://www.Badgerord.com/catalog/sel6.html
... and look at the bottom of the page... Badger rings are some of the best made anywhere!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 20:46:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
No I'm not BATF, But hopefully will be LE soon. I'm on the eligibility list for San Francisco PD, have an offer of employment from Secret Service (conditional on me passing the rest of the components and remaining competitive with the other applicants), and am rated Most Competitive for the position of Special Agent by the FBI (waiting for their hiring freeze to be over in October to get a slot for Phase II).
I've even considered LE jobs like Fish & Game and US Forest Service, but immediately rejected the idea of BATF. I just don't think I could look at myself in the mirror every morning if I sold out and worked for them.
I've seen the Watson's website, and for the money their product looks good. I've just got some concerns about wear to the lower reciever, specificalls the pin holes. I've got a stripped Bushmaster lower and wouldn't want to tear it up.
But the Watson .50 upper would solve some problems for me, like explaining
to my better half why I needed to spend $4,000 on one rifle (the Watson
upper is only $1,100). And since the lower would be attached to a single
shot upper, it wouldn't meet the state definition of Assault Rifle and
wouldn't need to be registered.
pete r <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 20:52:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Thanks to all in advance, Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 21:08:16 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.65.48)
Pat - The littlest guys make the littlest tagets! That is why in the 40s and 50s the BAR went to the littlest guy in the squad.
Guys, don't know where it is posted at but there is a copy of an interview that "Ms Reno" gave in which she defined who the Justice Department thought were worthy of a strong look. She stated at the end that while one of these traits were not "necessarily bad, two meant that the FBI may need to "watch them". Lets see what was on the list, "Going to bible study", "Strong religious beliefs", (WOW Catholics, Baptists, Judah Christians, Muslims, etc, watch out you have just hit two!) "Belief in the Second Admendment" (?), There are more nad they are even more innocent then that. Why have not the third estate done their own "investigations" of these nuts.
Enough crap, I have work to do and I am only getting more irrated wanting this administration to be gone. I will pray and go to bible study hoping that Gore gets stomped at the polls by Bush. Clinton didn't ever get half the vote and he is "dictating through royal decree" OOpps, Executive order. Can't get Congress to do it, then Order it or sue it. Piss on it.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 21:18:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.189)
I would expect the large recoil o eventually damage the pin holes
on the lower and the upper. My guess, 50 rounds and a slight ovaling might
be expected. I've seen under barrell 24" 50 cals also. OFr limited shooting
I would even consider the upper 50 cal. Looks like a good product, but,
sorry, I have no experience or knowledge of it.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Friday, June 23, 2000 at 22:14:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
LOL! Seriously though, putting that NRA logo sticker on my truck's rear cab window has been a great theft/break-in deterrent. I have seen cagey looking fellows eyeing the parking lot, pick my truck to have a close look at, and get all the way up to it -- only to see my NRA sticker. On more than one occasion I have been walking across the parking lot and seen this happen. The would-be crooks just turn and walk away. I had a few break-ins a couple years ago, since I put the sticker on there, I haven't had one. Can't say I would recommend the Desert Eagle idea though, that would be hard to explain...but it would probably work pretty well.
UnDude:
About that Steve guy that likes to argue with you, you should put his scrawny ass in a sling. Oh, by that I mean you should send him one of your rifle slings. Ummmmm, everybody knew what I meant, right?!? Hey men let's pick our battles, after reading all that is in the news about the BATF, gov't. cheese lawyers, etc, we gotta stand together. It pisses me off to see us grown men not agree to disagree on certain issues. And bringing up old rubbish will just piss everybody else off too. So knock that shit off, and get on with it.
Observations from a young buck, learnin' from you old guys...
Brian <bolt_308@yahoo.com>
OR, USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 00:40:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.36.55.53)
I would hate to think that I set a precedent that added to the incivility of this site. Your last post to me was left unanswered because those answers are technical and that would lead to another round. Screw that. If we ever run into each other, the beer is on me. With any luck it will be "Bravo Brew".
Mike,
You are known as a "leveler". When a woman asks you what you think
of her stupid looking shoes, you tell her that they are ugly. She takes
it personally and gets upset. There's no reason. It was only an honest
statement of your opinion. When read, that kind of directness is often
misinterpreted as an attack. It escalates into a pissing contest.
To those who have contacted me to offer to help me with statistics:
My guru conned me into grading her fall Multivariate Analysis class.
90% of the grade is homework, and there is no answer key. The wiz-kids
working on their masters and doctorates in math will take me to the mat
in an eye-blink. Some of their exquisitely reasoned 20 page calculations
make my eyes cross. I feel much better knowing that your expert counsel
and guidance is but an e-mail away.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 01:42:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.237.90)
I think true Fed 168 Match is about $325 a case, retail?
See the web site at www.odcmp.com
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 04:11:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Your request for non-lethal devices: A small air horn.
Air horns make an incredible sound such that it stuns the attacker for a second or so while they figure out just what the Hell that sound is and where is it coming from.
It gets the attention of anyone nearby (you say your wife and kids aren't supposed to be in seedy places, so I assume they are in normal public places with people around).
They can be legally carried anywhere but an airplane (compressed gases shouldn't be carried in an aircraft unless flight qualified).
They are cheap ($10 at wal-Mart).
They are Safe for kids to use(except a kid blasting the sound directly into an ear of another kid).
They are funnier than all get up to watch the stunned attackers face. (not an attck repelant, but funny)
I used to teach this in a personal defense class for women. One women had to use it and it worked. She also laughed her butt off once the guy was gone from the parking garage at the look he made from the sound. Another woman used it but the guy came back. So, she used the next defense taught: Her gun in her car. Worked great. Attacker was arrested.
I use air horns for warding off mountain critters. The air horn has worked the few times I've tried it, so I've never had to shoot one (critter).
Air horns are not the only solution, but for kids and women who don't or cannot carry a gun or pepper spray, they can work. (Pepper spray is illegal in some places and some women will not use it).
Air horns get people's attention to your problem, and that is usually
all it takes to get away.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 04:49:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.5.225)
As to all of us getting along. That is what I try for. I admit I can be way to short/blunt in my answers, but I am honest. I do not have a problem with anyone that does not agree with me. It makes for better conversation and a higher learning curve.
CDC, no wonder you shot so well. I explained shooting as a math equation and your eyes lit up. Now if I had your math brain I could really shoot.
Bravo, I am thinking of a way to get a taller rear site on my CAR so I can try a 1000 plus yard shot with it. I think I will stick with the 62 grainers since they are cheap. I have a new Olympic Arms Ultra Match CAR bbl, with a 1x10twist. I am going to file the front side to make it narrower. Just a joke, I think 850 was stretching it.
On Non Lethal Weapons. The ASP is excellent but you need to be trained and practice. I taught impact weapons for a dozen years but got very bored with it and no longer do so. James is outstanding at impact weapons and puts on a few, I mean too few, classes a year. I would then go with Pepper Spray over Mace anyday. I sprayed a few guys with mace before and heard''Whats that S... you squirted in my eyes"? nad saw no reaction. The Pepper Spray made them all close the eyes. Once the Pper is sprayed have her run and scream. The spray is the same size as an Air Horn but has a better effect.
Watson 50 upper. To load it you have to pull the rear lower Receiver pin and take the bolt out. I see doing that and the recoil from the 50 shaking the little AR apart. The cost is over a 1000.00. I would pass on this one. If you want a cheap 50, Mark Serbu, is making one for about 2,000.00, but it looks like delievery time is very long. I like the Barrett 99 and it will shoot 1moa no problem Cost on it should be about 2800.00 and it comes with a Kreiger Match Bbl.
Rick Boucher, I never made it clear on my posts. How I see the 50 is a special weapon, like demolitions. I would never deploy it or any sniper system with less than two men. I see and agree with your point on this. I saw two or three guys spreading the 50 load and all being armed with a real rifle for CQB. If you have one or two guys with CARs and one with a 50, you only have one or two CQB men and one carring a truck. If you have all with CARs you have more guns for CQB and still have the special weapon, unless something happens to one with parts. I guess it is a trade off, more CQB weapons with a split special weapon system or less CQB and an easy to get to special weapon. A trade off either way. It would depend on the mission which way I would want to go with.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 13:52:53 (ZULU) (your host
address: 148.165.83.143)
David
David <btn4ch@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 16:59:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
165.166.45.207)
The question is how to adjust for wind. Mr Plasters answer is as follows. Range in 100 yrds. x wind speed in mph divided by a constant of 15 = moa adjustment for wind drift ( x 4 for 1/4 click scopes). Supposedly good to 500 yards then other constants come into play. I have learned to guage wind velocity pretty close up to 12 - 15 mph. but any higher is pretty much a crap shoot. After learning how to use the Mil-Dot on critters less than a "yard" this wind thing is next! My hopes are to be able to make for more fun & better shooting in the SE corner of Wyoming in the praire dog fields next month. Any of you good people got an answer! Please don't say stay home cause the FEDS IS A WATCHIN, they wouldn't appreciate what I'm doing with my didgets right now.
Vern
Vernon <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Saturday, June 24, 2000 at 19:38:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.73.224.74)
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 00:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.5.218)
Hey Dave, CMP sell to Canuks? (kidding)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 01:28:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.130.179)
Sorry, that was a 460-round can, not 2-can case.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 02:21:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 03:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.136.80)
Not to fan the flames of the paranoid, but trust me on this...if you have received large amounts of ammo through the mail / ups / fed ex., and also buy and trade a few guns above the table [filling out the yellow sheet, having a NICS run, etc.,] there are folks you have never met who know what you have, likely better than you know what you have.
Stewart seems to be in some trouble. A felon, selling gun parts? Oh my God what could possibly be next? Senators that throw business to campaign contributors? No way. Guess now is probably not a good time to go into why I believe the majority of felons who have served their time, paid their fines, done the probation gig should be "allowed" to own firearms, huh? haha
Hope everyone is healthy and happy.
Old Dog
ps Steve, please leave MikeM alone. He is a frail old gentleman who
lives in the warmth of california, having just celebrated his 87th birthday.
Not sure why, but some of us kinda like him around here:)
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
wet, part, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 04:51:32 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.53.236.170)
Thanks!
Joe D. <roadrunner@jvlnet.com>
WI, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 08:52:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.145.182.33)
Skimming the debate, one side said:
"derived by Chinese guy with abacus",
Huh?
"random variable generator"
What?!?
"law of averages"
GRRRR!!!
That was a clear violation of the bull-shit cubed law. That is the
law that states "If a student trys to bluff three times, stop wasting your
time and cut to the result."
That result was 1.4806816.
There's no possibility that that result is right. And the tone this
guy is taking. So I blasted him and posted the correct formula. But look
at the formula I posted: var(1,2)=var(1)+var(2)+2cov(1,2), with cov(1,2)=0.
Does it look familiar? It should. It's equivalent to Steve's. His result
is wrong because he screwed-up the calculation of the square root of 2.
So we agree. But I'm still drinking beer and swapping dirty jokes
with Pablo and Mike.
Now, everyone laugh heartily and be happy. We have arrived at truth, and that's why we're here. Right? This ends it. Right?
And, Hank; I looked back at your e-mail. You nailed it, but your proofs need a lot of work.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 12:58:40 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.237.76)
SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS A SMALL "GAAAH" MISCALCULATION RESULTED
IN AN FREQUENCY (GEOPOLAR BAND WIDTH)IRREGULARITY IN THE EARTHS MAGNETIC
POLAR FIELDS, CAUSING A TEMPORARY - TEMPORAL / PODIAL / EMUNCTORY CHANNEL
SHIFT BUT ONLY IN CERTAIN PARTS OF OHIO AND CENTRAL MONGOLIA. RIGHT?
Bruce,
Don't you be picking on the "Tin-Man" or I'll tell mommy! UNDUDE
Mike still makes the best sling out there, and he still shooting awfull
good of a octagenerian palsied with too much sun.
Dave L.,
Please Resend me that list of materials for the package you sent.
Have a great weekend and behave!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 13:17:08 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.27)
If someone is spraying themselves with Pepper Spray and that is the reason to recommend an air horn, I suggest they do not leave home and stay out of the Kitchen and Bathroom. Far to dangerous in there. Whats the saing " Stay on the pourch" Only kidding dont get all mad at me. I see your point but anyone that plans on defensive action needs to learn a system that works. Why waist time with something of marginal benefit. I see the air horn about the same as the whistle. A device cops came up with to make old ladies feel good but has no real thump. These type of thing rely on others helping you. I prefer to help myself and teach others to do the same.
Vern, the best way I have found to learn to shoot in the wind is to just do it. What I am saing is to look at the wind and make calculations based on what you think the velocity is. Then make corrections. You can also buy a wind meter for about 100.00, but I just do it the old fashioned way. Write everything down and by the way the TRGT Data Book is great for this(Someone asked recently). Keep a record and you will soon learn what to look for and how to adjust for it. The wind charts in the TRGT Data Book is far better than what Major Plaster has in his book. Sounds like a TRGT commercial, but hell it is a great data book.
Bruce, you old dawg, yeah I can barely get out of my walker anymore.
I ave to oil my legs every few miles. Why dont you sign yourself up for
a class and we can hobble about together. Lets work some Lawyer Butt/.
Heck a Math Guru and Mechanic handled it. LOL. Good to hear from you Old
Friend. You only have to go as fast as me and I have never worked anyone
to death.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 13:43:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Gerry Fockler, Range Master
Shooters of Tidewater, Inc.
5139 Stanart Street
Norfolk, VA 23502
office: 757-461-9152 fax: 757-461-9155
Gerry Fockler <GFockler@AOL.com>
norfolk, virginia, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 14:18:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.197.203)
If rubbing causes friction,
and friction causes heat,
how long does it take a bulldog f*****g
in a bucket of icewater to make steam?
(I'm not an a**h**e, I just play one on SC!) :-) :-)
Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 15:10:21 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.74.25)
Dis-engaging & standing by !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 17:36:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
199.174.129.204)
YMMV, Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 18:08:52 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.65.109)
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 18:32:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.169.65.109)
Vernon - Mr. Plaster's is a cut and paste from the M14 manual and it is only good for M80 ball ammo fired formt he M14. The formula you want to use is similar but different. :-) Wind velocity time range in 100s divided by a constant of 10. This will give you a close enough wind call that the target will be hit with the first round. NOW the problem. This works with 168 gr M852 NM ammo based in yards! It also works with M118SB and M118LR based in meters. Will the answers be absolutely correct, NO. They will be too strong by about .5 moa at 200, and not enough by about .75 moa at 1000. If you want to know the constant for YOUR round, you must have a ballistic program that will give you wind corrections. Input the wind as 10 mph at 90 degrees and you can then find the moa shift per yard line. Once you have the moa shift per 100 yard lines then multiply the wind speed (10) time the yard line in 100s, and divide by the moa correction for that yard line found by the ballistic program. The result is the constant for that yard line. Do that for each yard line from 100 to 1000 and see if the error for each is enough to require a single constant or multiple constant. An example is that the 300 Win Mag round of 190 gr at 2900 fps can be used as a single constant but for greater accuracy, multiple constants should be used. Did I confuse you enough yeat. Wait there is more! use the same ballistic program and find the value of 1 mph and then you can make a wind chart for your round from 1 mph to 20 in what ever incrememtns your little heart desires! Yo then do not need the constant. Last thing, beware of some of the data in Plaster's book. It is cut and paste form manuals that have been in error for years. An example is the famous 3/4 Mil dots in his drawing of the mil dot scope and his "explaination" of them and well as his table of how to use them.
Rob - The M118 Special Ball is not very accurate and will throw unexplained flyers. This is a result of very old dies being used with a slop rate of out of sight. The same is beginning to ocur with the NM ammo.
Mike - That is exactly how the weapon is designed to be used. It is not a people killer at extreme ranges. It is designed to punch holes in equipment so that the soldier does not have to get on target. The problem is that my perspective comes from spending alot of resources to get in the area. To not be able to complete the mission because one guy went down is not a viable option for us. We can't split stuff up and then hope it all arrives at the same location at the same time. When the AF tells me they MIGHT get me in, they WON'T even try to resupply and start to laugh until tears roll when you mention exfil, then you get my side of the story. If the mission was not in such a denied situation and where the chance of compromise was not great then yes, splitting up the load would be a way to go. Understand though, that the guy carrying the 50 is carrying a large bag for the 50 and that he is probably carrying a defensive weapon as well. He would if he were on my team atleast. You do not even want to consider carrying that thing at port arms moving through the woods, sling or not.
Oh well, time for another beer. You guys have fun and keep that old fart Mike on his toes. Blond Ghillie Suit, you slay me Mike!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 19:13:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.138.186.68)
Tell your daughter Vice will never lead to anything but headaches and pains in places better not talked about.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 19:46:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Tell your daughter Vice will never lead to anything but headaches and pains in places better not talked about.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 19:46:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Don't believe Mike... it wasn't brown, it was BLOND! I think he used it to stalk babes on Hollywood Blvd ;))
But I'll have to admit, mine was gray and dark green, from the fall woods up here, and Mike, me and about 40 other guys, cleared out Walmarts of all their green spray paint.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 20:55:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
MikeM, I would enjoy shooting with you, but there is no place locally
that sells the material that you recommend for ghillie suits. Would it
be okay if I go with a tan paisley print? Maybe spice the rig up with a
nice mauve sash? haha
Old Dog
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 22:22:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.16.162.10)
Thanks guys for your input. Boy this math s%$t is just about to turn my hair white! I joined the CORPS 48 years ago to get away from it but it follows me like a junk yard dog. But not all is lost, as I'll follow both of your advise. Looks like some overtime with Oehler and Sierra ballistic programs. Ah what the hell the challenge is what makes it fun right? Been doing come up's on all my rifles and now I need to get the wind thingie down. lets see now x times pie squared divide by AAAAAAAUUUUGGGGHHHH!
Thanks again!
Vern <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 23:01:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.73.226.102)
Really, it seems like a good product, and with a bipod the rifle becomes a tripod and for field conditions that's about as stable as you can ask for.
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Sunday, June 25, 2000 at 23:30:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.41.37.59)
I have always jjust held over when hunting but I would like to dial in my scope for exact distances
I am a novice and not a sniper or anything but just a guy who would
like to know more and improve my hunting skills at longe range
Craig Hanson <crhanson@telusplanet.net>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 01:04:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
161.184.21.49)
I have read more than most of the post on SC for some weeks now,and have spent my sunday scanning through the archives for all the gathered wisdom. In all of the knowledge offered here on ballistics, gillie manufacter,mathamatical equations,mixed gender in combat,It is with the utmost hesitancy that I ask this next question.....When an individual is deployed in the local flora and fauna, what precautions are taken to make sure that one's person is not invaded by pesky little things like chiggers and bothered by misquitoes?? In Arkansas in the river bottoms you can instantly turn black by the flying insect population and for some reason they seem deet immune. the same for ticks (lime disease) and I am sure numerous other critters that I am unfamiliar with. I have a friend that has given to me, chigg away,and insect repellent with 71.25% deet. I have never used this (got it yesterday) Is this the stuff of choice?? Is it all that is used while crawling on the forest floor and crawling in the river bottoms??
respectfully,
Brock
Brock <anthony@grnco.net>
Paragould, AR, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 01:52:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.21.151.49)
UnDude: paint... Mike - I think I have the paint that you were looking
for @ the Walmart near SMTC. My Ghillie was blonde too - as well has having
a completely black rifle/scope. Ask Pablito - who was one room over in
the hotel - what that fog was comming out from under my room door @ the
econolodge :)
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 01:59:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
I have done some checking and you can ship your brew out of state
IF you do it through a DISTRIBUTOR it's kind of like the unions I am used
to seeing in Youngstown, OH. They control everything. I am currently checking
into it, if I can't find one I may just have to become one. That was Good
brew.
Scott <stellarsdw@hotmail.com>
Southeast, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 02:03:17 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.86.154.133)
I'm trying to get enough parts roughed up so that the finish won't flake off quicker than neccesary. Things like the Harris bipod are prime canditates for a good sand blasting, otherwise the finish is just too smooth to accept any sort of finish. I've been practicing and I have a nice 3-4 color pattern worked out using two browns, grey, and a bit of green.
Now if I could just get the local cats away from me, they keep giving me those "kitty litter- come hither" eyes.
I'm gonna be using the Brownells Alumahyde II and some of the Brownells Telfon Moly. I've played with the Teflon/Moly before and found out that it doesn't like aluminum too much unless you can give it a nice rough finish to stick too. It worked well on the other non-polished steel parts I've done in the past though. I'm gonna use the Alumahyde for the stock and the Teflon/Moly for the metal. I guess I'll find out if the two colors match well.
I'm ordering the supplies tomorrow and I hope they will arrive before next Thursday allowing me to spend Friday refinishing.
Well I am gonna go outside and shake this sand out of my hair. Here
I was thinking that to get sand in my hair I was gonna have to go to the
beach to celebrate the 4th when in actuallity I could just stay at home
and get the same effect with this damn sandblaster.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 02:06:04 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.58)
I have done some checking and you can ship your brew out of state
IF you do it through a DISTRIBUTOR it's kind of like the unions I am used
to seeing in Youngstown, OH. They control everything. I am currently checking
into it, if I can't find one I may just have to become one. That was Good
brew.
Scott <stellarsdw@hotmail.com>
Southeast, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 02:10:24 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.86.154.133)
First, have you looked inot setthing up a Parkerizing rig? Its not
so dificult, realy. I too a tubular piece of stainless sheet that had once
formed a plate stacker-thingie in a piece fo Army mess hall equipment,
cut it in half lengthwise and bolted and sealed the ends together to form
a crude tank of sorts. Then I cut an old propane barbeque grill down to
hold it low over the burner and used an old aluminum railroad crossbuck
as a lid. Havent had a chance to park anything yet but it took a full load
of water up to operational temperature with no probs. You dont *have* to
give Brownells a thousand bucks if you dont want to. :)
Plan B: might want to give the Brownells Baking Laquer a shot while you are at it. You can fabricate the above tank rig in the form of an over if you care to. Barring that, you can Alumahyde the barreled action and "spray-n-bake" all the little parts and cook them in a toaster oven. A much tougher finish than Alumahyde. Best of all, spray -n-bake *over* parkerizing. This is what I indend to do in many cases.
And while I am here...
First long-range shoot off of a bipod...interesting!:
Got on a range the other day where I could shoot up to 500 yards.
As I was pinched for time and I had to burn up some time confirming my
zeros at 100 yards ('cause of my switching cams on the LR M3: I took care
and suffered no shiftig whatsoever) I only had a few minutes at 500.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 02:38:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
With your Accushot Monopod, what size bipod are you using?
6-9" 0r 9-13". It's time to buy a new bi-pod.
Semper Fi.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 02:55:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 12.28.201.84)
100% DEET is great for killing a lot of critters, but supposedly the problem with it is it's absorbed by the skin and can screw with some of your organs in later life (don't know if you can pass it on to your future kids). Thus rduced strength GI bug juice.
For down south and the saber-toothed crotch crabs, ticks, and chiggers the Army has a spray-on treatment for your BDUs and fatigues called permethryne, or something like that. Insects hate it. Proper treatment is to spray it thick on to the fatigues AND LET IT DRY COMPLETELY. MAYBE EVEN LET IT SET A DAY. Otherwise, it'll blister your skin worse than a mustard gas attack, and you'll be unfit for anything execpt whimpering with an IV in your arm for a week (seen it happen at Fort Chaffee, so I KNOW it'll happen in Arkansas).
At Ranger school they had a novel treatment, but I was never sure if it worked. Take flowers of sulphur (small sulphur rocks you can get at a drug store) and put them in a GI sock. Pat it around the bottoms of your fatigue trousers, tops of your boots, waist line and fly, and supposedly the ticks/chiggers won't bother you. It stinks, though, enough that deer or humans can smell it and spook your ambush.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 03:18:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
FWIW I use the 6-9" Harris BR-1 with my accushot monopod. I'm glad
to see somebnody else has given it a try and sees the benefits.
Bolster,
You should not have to worry about barrel heating unless Rod really changes the events. The most is about ten shots if memory serves me.
Worry more about climbing them thar ladders on the "repel"ling tower.
"Mommy I'm scared get me down from here" :-(
Ken,
Would that be the "Colorplace" brand stock #20018 Camoflage green? or something else, inquiring minds want to know.
Chao!!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 03:27:46 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.48)
And I have to say that my confidence in the 700 PSS from Hell (TM) has greatly improved! I was shooting at basicly an IPSC pistol target with no realy clear aiming point (sort'a like real-life, huh? :) and could only try and quarter the thing. The first three rounds were fired within 45 seconds or so and struck within a 1 MOA area just slightly over center of mass. I then switched over to a resetting 9" metal gong at the same range and managed to ring it five out of the next six rounds, as fast as I could single load it it, line up and shoot. At that point I belive that the heat was getting to the barrel and it starting shooting higher and to the right (and I was getting a bit overheated as well). This barrel hasnt exibited any tendancy to "walk" when shot hard in the past at 100 yards but, hey, I was pushing it and at a rather longish range so I can't complain. The first ten or so were right in there.
This was with a precise 100 yard zero and using the ".30-06" dial for the BDC and using some older gas-gun compatable handloads, a 168 MK on top of some ACC 2520, LC case and WLR primer and an instrumental velocity of 2650 fps out of this gun on a 70 deg. day. Temps this weekend were in the low 90s so I expect actual velocities were a bit higher. The load tracked on the BDC using this cam about .5 MOA high at 500 yards (or 12 moa on the cam). I went to this cam bacause I was under the impression that it tracked 175 MKs a bit better, but I am impressed with how well it did with the 168s!
And, yes, I am aware that there is no "cam" involved here as on a
true BCD scope a la Leatherwood or as on the SVD. Just sticking with the
common nomenclature used here and elsewhere.I also made a point of ignoring
"The Great Cam Controversy" that raged here a while back, as it seemed
self-evident to me that even if you had a "cam" that was calibrated perfectly
for a given load on a given day, even a minor change in altitude, temperature
or barometric pressure would force one to tweak their zeros a bit, anyway.
I for one am glad that Leupold has provided us with a most flexible arreangement
on the M3, one that is serving me very well so far. Put in my vote fo the
M3!
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 03:30:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Camo'd rifle...we'eelllll I sorta wanted to match my suit and the foilage @ SMTC... here's a picture...
http://www.snipercountry.com/photogallery/CarlosII/Vol1/img021.JPG
This just happened to be that picture of a snake that some folks out there were calling me on....
Ken ;)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 12:07:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
A lot of things here on this site that I won't comment on cause most of these guys are way more knowledgeable than I, But when I do it's from experience and an expendature of a lota bucks. On the Ruger: I have had several and must state that you may get one and it shoot like a house afire, but you go for four more and the best they will do is 2moa. I have one that has been rebarreled three different times. It is now a 7/08 and a fine shooter. I have one of Rugers' varminters in .22PPC that is plumb scarry! If I had it to do over again I personally would stay with Remington and if it did'nt come in the cal. I liked or wanted, go the next available cartridge. In your case if Remington dosen't have .257 then consider .243 or 6mm Rem. The cost between the two isn't that great and most Remingtons will shoot sub moa. out of the box and with a little tweeking and time in the loading room you can expect tighter groupes than that. In short for me, NO MORE RUGERS! I have one Remington that I have made into a switch bbl. in .308 and .243 Ackley Improved. If I can get this old fa#t to remember " increase pressure to trigger, have at least one eye open " they will pretty much run in the .400s. That's my opinion and with a five dollar bill you can take both and get a cup of coffee any where you like!
A foot note: Most of the guy's that post here are as I read it are still "active" or "have been" ( with credientials)and are Remington Shooters. Now the Question is Why? Serviceability, simplicity, ruggedness, and lastly just plain dependable.
ok ok i'm off my soap box. Next:(breathe Vern breathe)
Vern <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 13:19:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.242.58.99)
Thanks for the pix link, duuuuh on my part! Are you all set for the
match?
Bug repellant, I just "found" a big bottle of Skin So Soft that Mrs.
peteR had squirreled away somewhere I could not find it.
For non-combat situations many SF types have highly reccomended
it. Got a bunch chigger bites clearing the back 40 sans bug juice and could
have used it.
Have heard it goes good with a "Blonde" Ghillie and Robins Egg Blue
boots too.........
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG STILL UNPACKING CITY, BY GAWD, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 13:23:06
(ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.58)
I'm not an "operator" nor have I ever been, but I have worked as an Armorer, Civilian Type, One Each and can tell you that the Remingtons are popular because of a combination of the folowing features: they tend to be more accurate out of the box than most other things and feature inherantly nice, accuracy-enhancing things like fast lock time, nice stiff reciever, smooth action and a decent trigger. They are cheaper than most other things which makes procurement and budgeting people (wther at MBA or a Mrs.) happy and are also generaly quite reliable (if you slam bolt handles like I do, you may pound the bolt stop into submission one day...need to get a spare...). Furthermore, everybody makes aftermarket gizzies for them so you can make it as cheap and utilitarian or expensive and dolled up as you want and there is a ready pool of armorers out there that knows how to rebarrel them and how to glass bed them and, well, basicly they just work. You can pick fault with them if you care to but as far as I am conserned its a shorter list of faults than most anybody elses, for the same money or more. Besides, try finding a Steyr SSG at Wal-Mart...
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 14:33:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Deet - scary complex molecule that probably has lasting effects in higher concentrations (probably will lodge in fat molecules)...try to keep it light on the skin, heavy on the clothes...
Skin-so-soft - total BS, doesn't work at all
Premethrin - This is a natural bug killer. I use it to kill aphids...I think it's derived from Chrythanamums (spelling?)...it works, but will illicit a very nasty sore on bare skin, so agin, try to keep it on the clothing.
Sulfur - This sounds interesting... I will try sulfur powder and
report back. (maybe make a spray out of it...)
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 15:05:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Seen 'em. I think he's local to me.
Mike is correct, you push out the rear takedown pin in order to remove the bolt. The lower can be a standard AR lower w/ no modification necessary. I do not know if that means all aftermarket triggers will also work with the modified 50 upper, or if he makes them to fit all takedown pin diameters. The bolt screws in and out of a modified AR upper. It is about as secure as you can get and if you don't screw it in properly, the rifle won't close again, so headspace won't be mucked up. The bad news is, of course, that you have to open the receivers and screw out the bolt for every shot. And depending on weather, you may like that even less.
The bbl, as far as I can tell, is two parts. There is an extension between the receiver and the main bbl part. Obviously, this might have an effect on accuracy if the bbls were not joined perfectly. (note, the design may have changed in the year or so since I've seen it, but originally at least, the bbl was actually two bbls joined).
Watson wasn't making any claims one way or another on accuracy. I got the distinct impression that he considered it a fun gun for shooters who might like to blast a few fifty rounds once in a while, rather than a working sniper gun. He makes (or made) other fifties that he and his wife shoot for competition, etc.
The question was never raised, and he made no statements, regarding durability. It may be an issue, since it all hinges (no pun intended) on the takedown pins holding up. I suppose, with a tight fit, some of the recoil would be taken by the rear join on the receivers, but I don't know. While a fifty has some hefty recoil to be sure, it is not the same KIND of recoil you find in say a big Weatherby. A fifty's recoil is more of a pulse than a snap, so I imagine that the recoil demands on metal might be less than you'd think. I still find it suspicious, but I just don't know.
Again, I got the distinct impression that Watson considers this a fun gun, not a 1000yrd bench gun. It probably gives reasonable accuracy, but is more of a Ruger, rather than a Chandler (to use this board's lingo). With the bbl being in two parts I can't assume accuracy to be the greatest, but you never know (it's not a takedown, the bbl was simply MADE from two separate parts).
I seriously thought about it, but decided that if it couldn't shoot at least 1 MOA, there wouldn't be any point for my uses. Watson makes no accuracy claims (or at least he didn't), so I left it at that.
Sure, you could lay out MORE bucks to get a better 50 cal., but that assumes that you HAVE more bucks, and that you care. If you just want to have some fun at the range and burn lots of powder and fling lots of lead, without too many concerns about making 3" groups at 800 yards, then it might be perfect for you. It'd sure impress the dear hunter next to you! I'd look into the durability issue first though.
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 15:25:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
Dark green with some brown will work well as North East Camo unless you get an early winter, but that's not likely until October.
Pete R the question is are you ready for the Match.....
TonyY <ayackowski@rcn.com>
Iselin, NJ, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 15:37:14 (ZULU) (your host
address: 32.97.88.102)
Nice to hear from ya! I guess that a worse performance is unlikely
this year. Got the gear and am sorting out the equipment and fine tuning
loads and rifle.
Jim M,
"Skin so Soft" does not work? The Pyretherin is great stuff, used to have this powder that you burned in the tent and it KILLED all the skeeters DEAD. Its some kinda high fallutin neurotoxin to them.
ofta bike with the brats!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
big city, bygawd, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 15:52:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.196.54)
American Military firing on American civilians? Define "civilians". The rioters in the Rodney King LA riot were "civilians". What do you think happens when a guy goes in the military? Do you think he is turned into a robot? I think you would find that most of the military is against disarming civilians. What do you think a military guy becomes after they get out of the military? Civilians right?
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 16:21:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.172)
Skin So Soft - works for a limited time - it isn't the oily texture
but something in the fragrance, and consequently begins to fade to nothing.
Deep Woods OFF works fairly well (but smells)
Muskol is a great liquid - but don't get it on the radio, M16 handguards, rain gear, or anything else with plastics in it that you care about (face of a watch - evens fogs glass).
The 'Industrial' strength DDT/Deet cans are good for application on anything but you - cancerous (apparently) and as others have mentioned a blister agent for all intensive purposes.
The CF used to issue this 'Jungle Power' stuff which had no scent at all, except maybe on the skitters could smell for they loved it - Don't use it, it sucks!
We used to make 'bug bombs' by crunching up some pic coils, spray some Deet, and add a little naphtha all in half a pop can let it burn, then blow it out, the smoke will clear out a 3 section modular tent in minutes (but in all likelihood very cancerous/toxic etc.)
Unfortunately, not much you can do about the swarm, just get real
dirty and have a thick layer of sweat, dirt and cam stick to protect you
and an exceedingly high level of patients.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 16:55:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.146.76)
Tell ya what works for us. We have several horses... and as some
of youn'z might know - horse flies are flat out evil. Those suckers just
won't let up - let alone the other flies that just want to try for a quick
meal.
Well - Major Kim managed to find some stuff that is a dark oily
substance - that smells like it has citronella in it. A quick sponging
on the horse with this stuff via a rag - no more flies for quite awhile.
Not a bad smell either - kind of a citrusy smell.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 17:15:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
On a mildly related subject, there is a firm in Houston that is making AR lowers out of titanium. They are still working out some machining problems with the titanium but the quality of their aluminum receivers appears to be quite good. Price of the titanium is supposed to be $275 for a stripped receiver.
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 17:16:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.4.52)
Vern <VernLhamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 17:45:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.242.58.99)
7.62 hits out to 500? 7 clicks. That's right on. Leave it at battle sight until you're out past 3. Scopes? We shoot with scopes? ;-) Oh, that's with the 147 FMJ. Gotta love blasting ammo!
And Mike, yes a mechanic made it, but he's a fat and somewhat lazy ex-mechanic, and BARELY made it. How you got to the ridge so quick is still beyond me!
Well guys, a lightning strike to the phone line took out the modem
(yes, through a surge protector!!), and it'll be a week or two before they
replace it. I'm not putting anyone off, just hang with me. Gotta do the
e-mail thing at work during lunches and breaks.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000
at 18:19:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
7.62 hits out to 500? 7 clicks. That's right on. Leave it at battle sight until you're out past 3. Scopes? We shoot with scopes? ;-) Oh, that's with the 147 FMJ. Gotta love blasting ammo!
And Mike, yes a mechanic made it, but he's a fat and somewhat lazy ex-mechanic, and BARELY made it. How you got to the ridge so quick is still beyond me!
Well guys, a lightning strike to the phone line took out the modem
(yes, through a surge protector!!), and it'll be a week or two before they
replace it. I'm not putting anyone off, just hang with me. Gotta do the
e-mail thing at work during lunches and breaks.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000
at 18:19:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
I do think the design shows promise as a "fun gun" though with the exception that maybe they were slightly modified in design. Personally I'd like to see the bolt extend out the back of the buttstock, it would take a modified buffer tube with a hole cut in the back end. Much like the LAR Grizzly 50cal. bullpup rifle that uses a bolt/buttstock attachment, I would like to see the bolt on the Watsons upper be similar. By passing the bolt through the buffer tube and putting a nice cushioned buttplate on there you could pass a lot of remaining recoil energy right through the lower keeping the recoil push in a straight line.
Current reloading procedure requires the lower and upper to be cracked and the bolt to be unscrewed from the upper, with a modified long bolt sticking out the back of the rifle you would just unscrew the bolt and pull it out through the tube without having to crack the weapon open. The way the bolt passes over the hammer could be a bit tricky and it could require a slightly modified hammer but I think my idea shows a bit of promise once issues like how to attach the buttstock to the rifle are addressed.
My true feelings on the thing is that if anyone is going to throw a 50cal. upper on a poor little AR15 lower then they should take the steps to reduce the risks of damage to the lower. Having it designed to be a drop on type affair is novel but I think it is overly risky. Making a kit to retrofit an AR15 lower wouldn't be too difficult and changing out a buffer tube and a buttstock isn't too difficult. It wouldn't be a quick drop on fit anymore but it might be a better way to go.
I also don't think the Watsons upper is very practical. If I want
a 50cal. the entry level choices for me would be the single shot Barrett
or the Armalite AR50. My pet day dream rifle is a RoBar 5shot detach. mag.
in 6 color desert camo though.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 20:00:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.113)
I've got photos I'm gonna develop and post soon for other friends.
One thing about gopher snakes, the things are mean! I've had 4-5 over the years and every one of them has made a show of biting the ever-loving crap out of me. KingSnakes kick butt, most docile snake I've ever encountered, having had 5 or more of those I have never been bitten once. I kept the gopher snake for a couple days and practiced my Croccodile Hunter techniques at catching the thing with my bare hands, for the first time I didn't get bit while trying to catch this snake even though he was trying. This chap was hissing, spitting, and making himself look as mean as possible for me. Should have seen the dogs back away when it would hiss, stupid chicken dogs.
Funny thing is when I am out in the field shooting I never come across
rattle snakes. I am always looking for the darn things too. In 6 years
the only thing I've seen is a baby rattler that I could have dispatched
by stepping on it.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 20:23:20 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.165.1.113)
You, Mr. Bill, Bravo,lito', and others........too many to list, Seems some of America still has it's Sh** together.
Common sense, ...................there just seems to be a lack of it today.
Hopefully, it's still there, just under reported, as most things normal and worthwhile seem to be these days.
What's the old adage?, (Backwards)."If we hang together, then we will damn sure NOT hang separtately"...............
Thanks, for all the down to earth answers, and helping to keep America
what it was meant to be...............Terry.
tshoes(Terry) <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 21:35:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.199.52)
Out Here !!
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 22:17:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
199.174.153.177)
Later,
Bill <dc8plumber@aol.com>
KY, USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 22:49:52 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.56)
And if you don't like my posts, do us both a favor and don't read them. For example: I carefully read the shooting stuff by Torsten, Heikki, Rick, Dave, Gooch, TorF and others because they contain a lot of well thought out, field tested info. I give Pete a pass for the same reason that I can't bear to watch the Special Olympics. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to try to shout him down every time he posts.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 23:07:13 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.237.109)
When closed... the base of the bolt handle should hit the botton of the slot in the reciever, when it's all the way home.
There are times when a rough piece of the stock gets in the way, and blocks the handle from closing... just file it off, and touch it up with flat black paint.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, June 26, 2000 at 23:57:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 00:37:55 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
"SGT Eric Burge, a member of the USAMU Service rifle Team, shot a 198-8X, a personal best for him and the highest score (I believe) shot at 1,000 yards with an M16. He backed it up with a 193-6X the next match. Good shooting, Eric!!!" (Ref this last weekend's Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Long Range Championship shot at Camp Perry).
Optics? We don't need no STEENKIN' Optics! (Or manly .30 cals, apparently. Just young eyes and wind-doping experience.)
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 00:46:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Also we had a fellow on the boat from Guadalcanal ,he had stories
of rebel shoot outs and that the rebels made 2000 a breast ZULU type wave
attacks ,armed with .303 bolt rifles. Its over now a peace talk of some
kind , But since its Third world Crapolaa , no oil , no big bucks , no
bases ,No one gives a dam . But a few non beer drinking Australians that
own hotels and diving resorts ,
try to suppress the news , so that it won’t bugger up our bloody
business $## A Mate .
Read more about it on , the site below //////Weird stuff.
http://newsweekinteractive.net/nw-srv/printed/int/asia/ov0807_1.htm
Hans K <akuwert123@hotmail.com>
FRIGGEN, CA., USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 00:59:10 (ZULU) (your
host address: 130.191.26.114)
Just about the time I was to leave Korea in the mid fifties I saw
a couple weapons like you discribe. If memory serves me right they were
in millspeak called T-41 or something like that. Basically a M1 Garrand
modified to take a BAR mag. Then came a serious battle rifle the M-14 of
which these were the predicessor test vbersion. A little help here guys,
I'm digging back almost 50 years into some really cloudy brain tissue.
If memory is correct the handguards were intact though.
Vern <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 02:12:07 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.73.225.33)
MAKE sure that the rear of the two front scope base screws is not protruding into the locking lug recesses causing the "high bolt".
I just ran into it for the first time with my .300RUM 700 Police. Was it Kevin Mussack that mentioned something about that back a couple posts. The Badgers having attachment screws a bit too long, or Remington having receivers "off"
Five minutes with a belt sander, Lee chamfering tool, and a thread
die solved the problem for me.
CDC,
This is a FREE, OPEN forum and ALL people may read, and comment, on anything posted - AT ANY TIME.
PLEASE don't forget it!
It is called THE EXERCISE of a Constitutional Right called the 1st Amendment here in the US of A.
If somebody shows ignorance they can either plead the 5th Amendment,
Plea Bargain, or plead InSanIty, or be ROASTED. RIGHT?
Ofta train for the Olympics with a GOOD Coach,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 03:22:01 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.33)
Thank You for your time
CHRIS
Chris <simondsperf@juno.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 03:49:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.24.228.190)
Thank You for your time
CHRIS
Chris <simondsperf@juno.com>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 03:50:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.24.228.190)
Thanks for the input. I was pretty sure that they were T-something but like I said that was a long time ago and yes I forgot Berreta's configuration. Wasen't it a shortened version (20"bbl) called the BM 59 - "M1 Tanker" or something like that? I didn't realize though that they dated as far back as WWII. I can't be certain just how many ( 2 or 3 ) that showed up on the range during my last qualification. The range officers were having a great time playing with them though! I was just a kid at the time but they impressd me!
Outa here, gotta go administer P.A.T. testing for new hires for H.C.S.D
Every one have a prosperious day! ("if it started above ground it's
gotta be a great one").
Vern <VernLHamn@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 11:28:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.242.58.99)
Another Olympian effort.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 13:16:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.237.74)
I just saw selling in (cheaperthandirt.com? Actionarms.com, gunbroker.com)
subsonic .223 ammo made in Israel just for this purpose.
Dan Nichols <redcomd@hotmail.com>
Silver City, NM, USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 13:42:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.166.1.84)
On the M1 thing. If you look around you will find a modification that has been and is done for the M1 to take M14 magazines. I was at a gunshop the other day and the sale dude tried to tell me it was a real M14. I then showed him how to tell the difference and the reweld marks on the reciever. Man I think he was going to go calling on the guy that sold it to him. He's a nice guy, just a honest one that sometimes gets taken by the public.
Pete R., I look forward to your posts. You have a way of making light of things.
Remington 700 bolt not closing. I have seen a few do exaclty what
Pablito said. They out to issue a file and sandpaper with every new rifle.
Also look to make sure no black material has been crept over the aluminum
badding blocks. That will need to be sanded away or it will kill the acc.
of the rifle.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 14:40:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.193.39)
Like I said, I have no information whatsoever regarding the durability issue. The maker claims no problem, I am as suspicious as you are. Maybe they could/should make some sort of recoil lug that fits down into the unused magazine bay or something.
Obviously, one would not want to actually go out and PURCHASE a lower to use with this (if you're going to do that, why not just get an entire 50 cal in one piece, like a regular bolt gun), but if you already use an AR lower (like attatched to an AR upper), then odds are good that you might have a modified trigger, like the Jewell. All I was saying that just like the Jewell trigger doesn't work right with one of the dry firing devices, it may not work with a 50 cal upper. Likewise for other replacement AR triggers.
On the money thing, I think it's up to the individual what they want
to spend for this and that. Some people might be willing to drop over 1
large on a "fun gun." I wouldn't claim everyone is. Or some people might
be interested in a 50 for the novelty of it, but are uninterested in spending
larger amounts for a Barrett or whatever. Who knows what some people's
motivation is. I'm not interested & you're not interested, that's all
we can say for sure.
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 15:09:54 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
I am lucky to have Rice, Gardner and Barrett weapons.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 16:28:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.196)
Oh, it was the T-44 in a previous life, and the BM-59 takes M-14 sized mags, not the BAR sized. M-14 mags aren't interchangable though. Garand conversions (in 7.62 NATO) to accept the M-14 mags are common, but I've not played with any first hand. If it weren't for the scope mounting capabilities of the M-14 types which is absent on the M1's, I would STILL be shooting a Garand. Probably with a mag conversion though ;-)
And Mike: you knew I'd have to say something about this one. Pintos were THE rage in the late 70's. Got pics of one with 16" slicks (that's 16" WIDE, not tall), a blown 460 Super Cobra Jet under the hood, doing a wheel stand and pushing into the 8's for the quarter. The current Import class champ is running a Pinto (Brazillian made) also. Nitrous turbo. It CAN be done. Why anyone would is beyond me. Different strokes for way odd folks.
Andre: If I had that kind of cash to blow, I'd be looking at the 1919A4 semi-auto. Now that would be FUN!
Terry: thanks for the nice words. Hope I live up to them.
As for the question (not yours) about opening fire on citizens, well, I think WE know how that one would turn out! Besides, the disarmament squad couldn't keep enough people in it. Good folks have a tendency of leaving "distasteful" situations!
Sorry for the long post, I'll shut up again for a while!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, June 27,
2000 at 18:01:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Web site at www.catusjuicetm.com
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Tuesday, June 27, 2000 at 23:44:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.41.36.99)
The "Tap" load from Hornady is outragious... as is the civilian equivalent "V-Max" load. The bullet totally fragments in 4 to 5 inches, will not over penetrate, and the wound cavity looks like a grenade went off.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 00:32:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
The TAP load from Hornady is hot stuff!! It is very accurate and
the terminal ballistics are simply outstanding. I do not know if it is
a LE only load, but I was led to believe by Hornady that it is a bit different
in construction from the V-MAx. The A-MAx is something else entirely.
The ballistic trajectory is quite similar to 55 grain FMJ. They
offer lighter and heavier weights in the TAP-but do not go lighter than
55 grains with a gas gun-malfunctions will occur.
PS- when you shoot this round sometimes it leaves a pencil thin
smoke trail for about 30 yards!!! Neat to see.
Mictac <Mictac@AOL.com/>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 02:53:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.39)
Mic-Tac, I've had good luck with Federal 40gr Blitz (now discontinued
in favour of their 50gr HP's)out of M4's and C7's - but haven't tried the
40gr TAP yet (some on the way). Just have a unreasonable aversion to 55gr
stuff
As an aside the 77gr MK's crater plate deeper than C77(SS109)so
I just can imagine what they do to wallboard.
Urban Sniper - what .338LM isn't good enough? but seriously do you
really want a 5.56 for that? Permiter/Barricade guns, yes, but can you
afford the limitations that the cartridge entails?
(not trying to flame)
***my handgun is just buying me time to get to my rifle.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 03:19:37 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.132.159)
Try also the Nosler 55gr Ballistic Tip. Same basic thin wall, poly-tipped
varmit designed to "explode" on impact.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 04:30:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.31.4.250)
http://www.dennysguns.com/denny/precision.html
If you take a look at the picture gallery, the rifle with a brick
wall in the background is the one he built for me. Shoots nice too.
Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 16:44:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
Here's the deal: I've decided that I really like the value and quality of the IOR binocs. However, I'm trying to decide which would be best size wise. My experience with binocs has been limited to cheapo Bushnells Dad always took with him camping or to the games (10x50), the Steiner I had to hump around in the military or the really cheapo binocs (7x50) the department bought and put in the patrol cars (trunk, mind you). I have a M19 set that I like and work decently for spotting holes in paper at 100 yards (when I forget the scope). What I am looking for is something easy to carry with sufficient power for field work (LE) and for the occasional backpack & hunting trip. So, 7x40s or the 10x50? What is your suggestion and advice.
Thanks in advance.
Morris
Morris <mparrish@oz.net>
Seattle Metro, WA, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 18:02:51 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.39.131.130)
Mistah Gooch, sorry for the delay, but well put on the civvy versus mil and LE shooting stuff. One doesn't sign away his brain upon enlistment, although I'm sure some would prefer that. Of course the other way to look at it is: how many troops are there in the US? Total. Now, even though this wouldn't be the way it happens, spread that number across the map, and how many does that put in your town? How many "shooters" are in your town? If you figure that there's less than 1 troop per 10 "rednecks", then you are demonstrating why an armed society can't be occupied. Afghanistan anyone? Besides, if "the word" came down that this operation was to take place, the vast majority (I'm thinking anyway) of the mil would refuse the order on the Mi Lai (SP?) basis. Even at a one to one shooter/soldier ratio, if there are 10 people that would aid the shooter indirectly, it's still over. Please realize that this is a cereberal exercise, and I'm not a loco or nut case. Just trying to calm the people who would worry unduly over such things. As I said, well put, and less verbose than I am.
This being said, if you don't vote, and vote intelligently by putting
at least an hour per election in researching the candidates, please do
the rest of us a favor and move the hell outta the US. Thanks ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, June 28,
2000 at 18:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
If you look closer at the VPC site, you will find that they are after a total ban of ALL firearms. I wouldn't be suprised if they went after bow and arrow next. IMHO, if these folks don't like the way things are here, let them move to Australia or England where the laws are similar to what they want for us. I wonder how long they'd stay before they screamed to come back to the 'dangerous gun-filled' US of A.
George
George L. Derry <george@ebmud.com>
Oakland, People's Republic of Kalifornistan, USA - Wednesday, June
28, 2000 at 19:39:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.204.130.215)
I've written to the IRS fraud investigators about several of these anti-gun lobbying groups that are illegally using tax exempt status. I pointed out where they were violating the tax codes, using examples from their web sites and literature (I subscribe to several anti-gun groups mailing lists).
However, with the current administration nothing will be done about
these groups flagrant law violations.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 20:23:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Research into this just so you get as much info as possible but these are a couple of the things I've noticed with the factory loadings out there currently.
Within the TAP factory loading I believe there are two bullet styles used, both the Amax and the Vmax. I believe there is a 52grn and a 75grn Amax TAP loading(there is only a 53grn and 75grn Amax bullet offered) and anyother TAP bullet weight will be using the Vmax bullet.
The Amax has a sharper bullet ogive and a bit heavier construction but it still expands like hitting a grape with a sledgehammer. I've used enough of the things to be a total believer in how destructive these bullets are.
One question I have on the TAP loading is if Hornady had enough foresight to use powders with flash redartant to limit the muzzle flash. The Vmax probably doesn't but if the TAP loading is supposed to have been developed for the defensive shooting arena then I'd hope they tried their best at limiting muzzle flash. Otherwise perhaps Hornady just slapped a "tactical" onto their packaging like everyone else seems to be doing these days.
Factory loading data for the 40grn Vmax is a smoking 3800fps, probably from a 26 inch barrel but people are still getting hot velocities from 20inches and less.
Corbon is making a 40grain loading now that uses the Sierra BlitzKing moving at about 3800fps(dependant on barrel test length ofcourse). The BlitzKing is almost identical in construction to the Vmax with just a different ogive design.
I don't have much experience with Noslers yet but it's mostly because
I haven't gotten them to shoot better than the Hornady or Sierras yet.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 20:48:40 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.0.6)
Thanks
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 20:52:15 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.41.36.101)
On the TAP loads from the factory, I referred to factory 52grn and 75grn loadings with the Amax bullet since those are the weights of the Amax bullets offered. I mentioned that the lighter weight Amax was a 53grn after saying it was a 52grn factory loading. Happens to me all the time, I switch 52 and 53 at will since everyone offers the match 52s and match 53s.
That is what I get for trying to eat my lunch and type at the same time!
Well, back to my sandwich now.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 20:58:44 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.93.20)
MicTac <Mictac@aol.com/>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 21:00:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.199.156)
Owen <sigma532@yahoo.com>
texas, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 21:03:21 (ZULU) (your host
address: 165.95.37.40)
Owen <sigma532@yahoo.com>
texas, USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 21:03:36 (ZULU) (your host
address: 165.95.37.40)
I have the RCBS digital scale and powder thrower combo. Excellent accuracy and capabilities, but a little pricey at $300 for both. $160 for the scale and about $180 for the powder thrower if bought seperately. The RCBS equipment is actually a PACT setup but in green plastic instead of the PACT blue. Check out either the pact or RBCS equipment.
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 21:11:36 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.225.112.63)
The current .223 Tap loads are with the 55 and 60 gr V-Max bullets, and the 75 A-Max... and they take their muzzl velocities from a 16" Colt, so they look slow, but are full power loads...
Bravo...
I have heard (from several sources) that the Clinton group did a
study in the begining of his term, and was advised that if only 10% of
the population took part in an "Armed Rebellion" against the government,
that the government would loose... and that was assuming that the military
would stay loyal to the government. I've heard this from several places...
anybody else hear this?
'lito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 21:30:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
I haven't heard anything about that study, but when I was at IOBC in '95 we had an interesting discussion during a professional ethics class. We were discussing Mi Lay etc, and one of the students asked the question: when does the military have the responsibility to remove a sitting president from office?
The major giving the class went pale and hemmed and hawed then let the students discuss the issue. The general opinion was that when the government started disarming civilians would be about the right time.
When my brother graduated from West Point, many of the students didn't
want Clinton at their graduation because they felt that to have him there
would violate their Code of Honor "I will not lie, cheat, or steal, NOR
TOLORATE THOSE WHO DO.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 22:02:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 23:04:26 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.20)
Interesting thread on Mr Clinton re Westpoint. I remember reading
about a USAF Captain (female) B52 pilot (can't recall the name) who was
court martialed, then retired [in a deal], because she had an affair w/
a married man (civvie) of an enlisted female, then lied about it. The issue,
the Air Force said, was "this officer is entrusted with nuclear weapons
and lied"
HHMMMM! Now why was little Willie not booted the F*** out????
OH Ya Getting head isn't a sexual act (MY ASS)
Snivling little weasle that he is. Why couldn't Hinkley have waited
a couple years, and done some range practise in the meantime.
OH Dear I hope I have offended anyone with my views from up North
Bravo - Hey offer the troops beer and there you go!
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, June 28, 2000 at 23:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.27)
Well they sure as hell weren't from the Bay Area of "San Francisco". ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 00:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
The whole world is a drop zone!
So wherever I land must be right!
Dave
David Biggers <pathfinder27th@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 00:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
63.178.143.155)
Nothing easier. I'll assume you're using a pellet gun. The following is a template. Plug in the numbers you like.
9mm case width=.391"
pellet diameter=.177"
pellet target distance=50yd
torso width=20"
bullet diameter=.308"
bullet target distance=X
effective 9mm target width=2(.177/2)+.391=.568"
effective torso target width=2(.308/2)+20=20.308"
X/20.308=50/.568
X=20.308(50/.568)=1,787.676yds
Ninth grade algebra.
So, in the horizontal plan, assuming equally variable rifle/shooter combinations, and disregarding external ballistic factors such as wind, spin-drift, Guiness, etc, hitting a 9mm case at 50 yards with a pellet gun is like hitting a 20" wide target with a .308" at 1,787.676 yards.
The effective target widths may upset some of you. I don't care.
Now, someone double check my arithmetic.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
Shotguns&Pickups, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 02:56:59 (ZULU)
(your host address: 134.50.232.52)
Go back and read the last twe years of the Duty Roster Archives...
there's a lot of discussion on the Rem 700-PSS situation, which I won't
dwell on again... but there are reasons.
And whild you're going through the archives, you will learn a TON
of good stuff about everything from Scopes, to Sheepies ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 03:10:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
If the 9mm case @ 50 yds is equal to the 24" body @ X yds...
24"/.391" x 50... 3069.053708 yds... but I probably missed something, cuz in the ninth grade, I sat behind "Big Jenny Roth"... and they didn't call her "Big" for nuthin'... I kept peeking over her shouders at her "numbers"!... Flunked the class, passed with "Jenny"!!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 03:21:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
'effective 9mm target width=2(.177/2)+.391=.568
effective torso target width=2(.308/2)+20=20.308'
why the 2(X /2)?????? Same thing as X right?
Anyway - went at the NightHawk (and Acc.) w/ an airbrush and some IR suppressant (Cdn allegedly suppressant) paint - my Badgers and the AICS stock screws were rusting after playing in the rain and mud so I needed something anyway.
Anyway due to popular demand I am going away for week (Yes I hear
the cheering)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 04:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.140.28)
Pab: Check out the 'effective width' calculation. And don't give me trouble or I'll tell Jenny's dad.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
Decks&DoubleWides, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 04:12:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 134.50.232.25)
-I'm getting a little interested in this 300 ultra mag, if anyone has any experience with the round, good or bad, let me know. We pushed a 180 grainer thru a 28" bbl @ 3370fps, with room to spare. Ballistically, the rifle shot under 70 thou. It about gave me a woody.
--Still working on the 7-08
---Which magazine wrote an article on a 6 ppc using a 1/8" twist
rate? jeez, I don't think she has enough case to push a heavy bullet fast
enough to generate the rpm's, overkill. I've had 3 this week, just wondering
if there was something in Guns n' Ammo last month, usually the case......
later
JR <westernpump@sullybuttes.net>
rapid city, sd, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 04:52:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.187)
Best soldiers are the smart ones. They come from all places and walks of life. Cousin F''''' dont make good soldiers! LOL
CDC more math? Crap this gives me a headache. How about we shoot more and do less math problems. When I told you guys shooting was a math equation, I meant simple math.
Undude/Mike/Not a Redneck but plays one on TV
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 05:00:35 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.213.79)
Sorry... didn't mean it to ALL those from the "Light City"... Beautiful town... lotta loonie people. E-mail me about the bridge to Mars...
CDC...
I "WAS" checkin' out the effective width calculation... and the effective
depth, the effective ogive, the metplait's, and the Ballistic Co-effecient...
why the hell'd you think I was sittin behind her?
You math guys missed the best part of school ;)
EVIE...
Springfield still lists the #9781 M14, as available for $2230... have you called them, or are they now out of stock?
Bravo...
Have you shot your M25 yet, or are you still up to your buns in mud? (At least one inquiring mind wants to know!)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 10:09:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Mike: This problem was solved at Pete's request. I don't find it
especially useful. On your other point: There's no soldier like a smart
redneck. And no, that's not a contridiction in terms. There are lots of
'em.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
Woods&Ridges, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 12:11:00 (ZULU)
(your host address: 134.50.232.12)
Not really a Redneck Sniper wannabee, but I play one on SC
B, Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 12:21:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Snipercountry ????????
just wondering !
Rick, tape is here,thanks.
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
Germany - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 12:47:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.73)
The post very clearly said "So, in the horizontal plane, assuming
equally variable rifle/shooter combinations, and disregarding external
ballistic factors such as wind, spin-drift,
Guiness, etc, hitting a 9mm case at 50 yards with a pellet gun is
like hitting a 20" wide target with a .308" at 1,787.676 yards."
Read first, roast later.
Another useless G**D****D pie fight.
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 13:41:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.237.75)
Guys and Gals,
I SPECIFICALLY requested the info, and while it may seem obtuse
and all of you are AWARE I am "non-math" person, Dan is, and helped me
out with a problem that could not be solved with my WV calculator.
Like I said, REAL OBTUSE, simple kindergarden math stuff for some, but not all of us have the gift. Unless you've tried something this "simple" with a pellet rifle literally lobbing (800- 850 fps) Teeney Eenny little bits of lead with a BC of like .0246 maximum.
Now what would a conversion of a 1" diameter/10 shot group = at fifty yards with a pellet rifle compared to a .308 at 1000 Yards Hmmm????
just kidding!
Chao!
PS Torsten you still shooting that Leupold equipped HW-77 in a similar
fashion?
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 14:15:11 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.213.196)
My pss is quite good.... I am selling mine because I want to get myself into a good mouse gun. I have another .308 rifle that was custom built.. so one of them had to go.... I kept the heavier .308
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 14:54:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
OK, CDC... I didn't too well in the ninth grade, but the 10th grade went a bit better (they didn't call her "Little Susan" for nothin'!)
Run this by, and let me know where I went wrong... I like Dutch Blueberry,
with real whipped cream, not "Cool whip"!
Target (9mm case) distance = 50yd
9mm case width = .391" @ 50 yds = .746895893 arc minutes.
pellet diameter = .177" @ 50 yds = .3381088825 arc minutes.
Accuracy requirment of combination shooter/Airgun = 1.085004776 arc minutes!
torso width = 20"
bullet diameter =.308"
Target aiming size 20.616"
Target aiming size equals 1.085004776 arc minutes at 1969.054441
yds.
'lito (Lookin for numbers in all the wrong places!! ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
In my hide... lookin for love in all the wrong places... Algebra class
:((, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 15:37:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Send Dutch Blueberry pie by Fed-x overnight refridgerated!
Target (9mm case) distance = 50yd
9mm case width = .391" @ 50 yds = .746895893 arc minutes.
pellet diameter = .177" @ 50 yds = .3381088825 arc minutes.
Accuracy requirment of combination shooter/Airgun = 1.085004776 arc minutes!
torso width = 20"
bullet diameter =.308"
Target aiming size 20.308"
Target aiming size equals 1.085004776 arc minutes at 1871.69683 yds.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 15:54:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
First, what's the deal with arbor presses and hand dies? Do they have advantages/disadvantages over a conventional press and die setup, or is it a personal preference thing?
Second, the redding comp. neck dies. I know that several of you out there are using them. Are you using them as is (no sizing button) or have you purchased the sizing button kit? What about using the die as is and adding the additional step of using a sinclair expander body and mandrel? I know PeteR has some experience with this last idea from reading his article on Sinclair tools. I am interested in hearing from folks who have tried it all and pros and cons of each method. The indication that I got from Redding is that the sizing button (or some other step) is almost mandatory unless you are a seriously anal weigh all of your primers benchrest nazi.
I am also interested in buying a bench setup. I don't know much about rest or bag setups, and would like opinions and recommendations. A forend stop is mandatory, and windage top is not. What I will be doing will mostly involve load work up, etc. No comp. BR shooting (yet, anyway. Maybe someday my a$$hole will pucker tightly enough or more accurately my bank account will be full enough to afford comp. BR). Anyway, I don't want to spend a years pay, so does anyone have a real hard on for a particular front rest/rear bag that could be acquired without selling a small child?
Thanks in advance for all the help. I have lurked here for a long
time and posted a few times, and have gained a great respect for the knowledge
base here. I am looking forward to what all the experts out there (Mike
M., 'lito, PeteR, Gooch to name only a fraction) have to say.
JHall <jhall@family-net.net>
Central, but still way too damn close to Chicago, IL, USA - Thursday,
June 29, 2000 at 17:03:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.0.57.44)
Arbor Presses are quite accurate but a conventional press will suffice for 99% of us.
I use the Redding dies as is with the titanium nitride bushing installed.
Since the cases (other than the "virgins") are already fireformed to the
OEM chamber I just want to squeeze them a litle bit.
The neck tension thing (smaller bushing diameters) will be experimented
with later this year when I have time to leisurely check them over a chronograph.
HA!
You want to minimize working of the brass to get longer case life.
Carefully chamfering the mouth of the case is pretty important, but I can't go to the extreme of the latest T-S issue and polish the case mouths (well yet!) with 0000 steel wool.
If the Ransom Rifle Master (In Review page) is too expensive, check
out the Sinclair line of front rests. DO NOT get the Outers or Hoppes benchtop
things, they were probably my worst purchase for accuracy testing, ever!
PS: I'm just another tactical shooter, with somewhat limited experience,
but thanks for putting me there with the "Big Boys" who are the true UKD
Tactical experts!
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 17:33:04 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.197.43)
Arbor presses and hand dies are used by many benchrest shooters, but the slight advantage is only found if you are shooting a state of the art bench gun, and even then, it may not be better that the Redding BR dies in a good press.
Arbor presses, and hand dies will NOT make your run of the mill rifle shoot better. If your rifle is shooting better than .15" to .20" with EVERY group, then it might pay to look into them.
On the Redding Comp dies... get the right sized neck bushing, and
don't waste your time (or energy) with the button! A .334" bushing will
handle .308, and '06 cases, and a .243 bushing will handle .223 cases...
without a button.
The buttons is NOT mandatory (unless you are buying them from me,
then they ARE mandatory ;)
The Sinclair mandrel die is for prepping cases for neck turning, and not for loading... if you want to expand, look at the Lyman "M" die... it puts a 0.002" inner step (but no "flair") to start the bullet, and the cases don't require "Chamfering"! I use it on a 308 progressive, and you can't tell the ammo from new factory.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 17:49:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Kevin: CDC is right on. My prof was a "softie" from what I hear, 10% for the right answer, if the proof was marginal but understandable. 90% for a correct proof, regardless of answer. On this problem I got a 90, due to fat fingers.
Pete Robertson: you mean they STOLE the Aggie code of honor?!? ;-)
Haven't had a chance to run round one outta Betty Lou for over week now, going into DT's. Pulled the downstairs apart (literally) and got everything dry, just not "purty" yet. I think I'm the only one on the site here with a carpeted driveway. Gonna experiment with "Naval Jelly" to take the tarnish off the dies and such. Supposed to not play havoc with fit and finish. Hey, the squid boys MUST have been good for something. Just joking squid boys, nothing personal. With a rifle named Betty Lou and hobbies like making beer and racing is there any question who's a redneck?
BOTH CDC and Mike are right. Seen some really good soldiers that were "citified", and some from the swamps. Good men are good men. On the odds though, just on the percentages, gimme someone with a family tree that looks like a stump. Anyone who grows up "tipping over" stuff for fun (like coyotes?) can probably do the same to someone on my 6 when it really matters.
JHall: I use the Redding BR sizer also (thanks to Patron 'Lito) and
I don't use the expander button. Got a Lyman "M" die in 30 short that sits
in station #3, it's a mandril type expander, great (slightly surface rusted)
die. My ammo seems to shoot better than I do, and I've hit 1/3 MOA twice
now. Consistently well into the sub MOA range, but only when I do my part.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, June 29,
2000 at 17:57:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
PeteR, the ransom rifle master is definitely out of my league, but I have been eyeing the sinclair rests pretty hard. Anybody have one that they want to sell? Any other opinions on them? What about a good rear bag to start? I know this last is going to be an issue of personal preference, but as I have not yet developed a preference I'm looking for somewhere to start.
Thanks again for all of the fast advise.
JHall, in awe of the masters and honored to be permitted to converse
with them.
JHall <jhall@family-net.net>
Way too far from any mountains, shooting ranges, or anything else fun,
IL, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 18:35:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.0.57.69)
I use a "Wichita" aluminum rest, with leather "Protektor" sandbags filled with "cream of wheat"... that I've had from the 60's and they are still fine!
Threw the "forend stop" on the rest in the garbage.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 18:53:11 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
On gun companys putting or building little crap/wonder inventions on there guns, I think we are all in agreement that these things are a world of trouble.
My question is this, whatever happened to the sort of folk(other than those of us here on this site) that had enough common sense and gun knowledge that they could disable a firearm through simple means of disassembly and the use of a cable lock or a padlock. Like on a Remington, remove the stupid bolt and pass a cable lock through the receiver ways, BAM! YOU'RE LOCKED UP!
Does anyone else find it disconcerting that a pistol with a trigger lock can still have a loaded magazine and have a round chambered from the magazine but yet for some reason it is considered magically safe by the powers that be?
When it comes down to it there are two problems in my mind with these damn things. One, the manufactures can charge more for their time and work that went into making somesort of locking gimic. Two, in my mind, people who can't figure out a way, or multiple ways, to disable their firearm are an apparent risk when it comes to firearms use and safety. I know we all know hot to own firearms responsibly and it is my bet that this sort of thing drives you about as crazy as it does me.
I know a certain guy who bought one of the new HK USP pistols that
has the little hammer locking key in the area of the hammer main spring,
little did he know that it was engaged and he promptly screwed the hell
out of his nice pistol when he tryed racking the slide.
Patron Lito,
Your alterior motives sound a lot like my own back when I was in
highschool. Ofcourse I was on the highschool swim team, it is no wonder
my favorite stroke in swimming was the breaststroke! I grew up swimming
laps behind some of the most interesting motivation, go fast enough to
keep up but go slow enough so that it isn't obvious!
The only other guys that had it better than me were a couple of friends
of mine that went to the private school where 1/2 of the girls wore skirts
that were part of the school uniform. They always managed to find seats
that were directly across from intended target, "line of sight" was always
maintained at whatever cost.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 20:25:27 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.0.107)
Pete Robertson; this is very very bad news for the whole country.
shocking misinterpretation of the constitution. I could get serious
about that. That could get real serious sure enough. I don't know how the
California Law reads, a lot of states have adopted the terms of the constitution
directly upon statehood. So at this point I don't know if they are saying
the Consititution doesn't apply to California or they aren't bound by it.
Or if they are simply interpreting it the way they want too. Shiver!
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 20:58:20 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Nothing fancy here, but it has worked well for me
Getting time to move from Calif. The nutts are running the place
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 22:44:39 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.193.22)
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, June 29, 2000 at 23:08:56 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.21)
Gimme' some feed back on the arc minutes calc's... (the corrected
one).
I have a fair amount of confidence in it, but the difference may
be my mistake, or rounding errors...
... and I ain't got no "burgers" on the keys of my calculater...
"Cheekin legs", "Tacos", "Enchalatas", Cool aid ;), but no burgers.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 03:12:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
"Bob The Nailer" fans,
Do yourself a favor and check out the new Stephen Hunter book, "Hot
Springs". It's about Bob's daddy, Earl Swagger. One "BAAAAAD" good guy!
Still saving my pennies for that 20" .223 bolt gun.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful and friendly Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, June 30,
2000 at 03:22:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.80)
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 04:21:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.38)
Actually, I beleive that CDC does indeed make a PARTIAL valid point when it comes to equivalency of target size and range. The only time that I came across this type of target size usage is during marksmanship training. As an intermediate step towards long range shooting, before targets were put up at army (European NATO army) marksmanship operational ranges of 600 to 900 meters, we had to shoot at smaller silhouette targets at shorter ranges. It was a step towards perfecting B.R.A.S.S., range estimation and getting used to the target picture at various ranges, without requiring the use of 900 meter shooting facilities. But I iterate : CDC has a point ONLY when it comes to using his theories as a basic-to-intermediate training tool and nothing more (definately not as part of a final or subsequent future/maintenance qualification shoots).
another 2 cents (well, drachma in my case).
AresP
Ares <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 04:49:01 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.224.68)
I have a Rem 700, A3,Hart #7 -26", .308 cal.
I've just mounted a 6.5x20x30MM LR Lupita.
Problem, mounted on a Badger base, MK4 rings, with the unit mounted all the elevation adjustment I have to work with is approx 53 moa's.
I have MK4's on PSS's, and mounted on MK4 1 pc bases, and have 60 moa to use,(give or take a few).This is with NO additional taper, just straight.
I figure it's not the scope, but the bedding job that was done.
I figure the reciever is installed, and bedded at an upward angle,
and this is causing my problem.
I know with 50 plus ele, I'm fine out to a K, but it's a little disconcerting to not have a more balanced rig............your opinions & thoughts welcome........tshoes
Ps;Mike, you got to get out of that left wing haven, bring your friends
also..................
TERRY(TSHOES) <TLS8323@CS.COM,
IN THE PLACE WHERE UNDUDE NEEDS TO MOVE, TX U.S.A>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 04:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.43)
As a "long range" shooter I'am considering to step from my favorite
cal.308 155 gr. palma match king bullet over to the 150 gr. LOCKBASE bullet
from Lapua or the 155 gr. Hornady A-max. Does anyone have information wich
would be the better choice? Some background info:
tool: BLASER SR93 cal.308
barrel: 61 cm
twist: 1:12
sight: Leupold 4.5-14x50 long range tactical with mildot recticle.
Goal: "Hit" targets between 700m. and 1000 m.
Thanks in advance for the info.
Robert.
robert <k.ruttgers@libertel.nl>
maastricht, limburg, netherlands - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 07:05:07
(ZULU) (your host address: 194.229.118.20)
I'll walk you through it, so you can find my mistake.
First, convert stuff to 100yds... (*it's easier to work at 100 yds,
for this frazled brain)... but I decided to do it in simple ratios, to
eliminate any any angular rounding errors.
Primary target... 9mm case.
Target size is 0.391" and primary range is 50 yds.
Project target to 100 yds = 0.782"
Pellet diameter at target is .177"
Project pellet at 100yds = 0.354"
OK... target + pellet at 100yds = 1.136"
Secondary target... 20" torso with .308 dia bullet.
Long range target = 20.308"
Range that they're the same angle...
20.308"/1.136" x 100yds = 1787.676056 yds!!
Hmmmm... that number looks REAL familar... lemme' see?
I found my mistake... on the calculator, I did...
Taco x Enchalata over coolaid x Chalupa - Lupita = "Burger+large fries", and it should have come out "Juarez Blue Plate Special!!.
Goddamn Burgers... it's B. Roger's fault, I borrowed his calculator
;(
CDC! Mano... You did good :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
JENNY!!! Are you still around, tell your father I'm sorry (would you
be willing to help with math again... my bird just got her walkin papers
:((, of mathamatical confusion!!, USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 10:53:28
(ZULU) (your host address: 24.188.89.243)
IT'S PETE'S QUESTION! It's not my theory!
CDC <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 12:09:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
134.50.232.20)
You're on the right track, but I'd be careful making a statement like:
"CDC has a point ONLY when it comes to using his theories as a basic-to-intermediate training tool and nothing more (definately not as part of a final or subsequent future/maintenance qualification shoots)."
I think at least on of the High Priests of genuine sniper training,
and Yes Virginia, He Is a real deal SNIPER, regardless of Geographic location
from Rio Linda, but does not play one on Tee Vee, may very well shoot a
little airgun. Any Guesses Who?
Now lets see a series of carefully "scaled" B-27 and E target Iron Maidens laced along the periphery of the peteR property to practice MIL'ling differing distances and maybe something will click in my feeble brain.
PS - A Zen Riddle - Theres nothing funnier than watching a Black Belt candidates face when they are told to do the most basic level form during their exam.
*:-0 (Bang Gotcha!)
peteR
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 12:49:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.59)
Bravo,
Just catching up on the roster, but did you find something to take
your rust off?? If not try a product called Navel Jelly I have used it
before and it works faily well in most cases.
Mike,
Thanks again for the personal load data they appreciated the insight.
Rick B,
The mildot info you sent me a year or so back really helped out
too. I don't know if they got lucky or they cought on fast but they were
ranging IPSC targets within a couple of yds out to 600yds and learned a
valuable lesson about miling a "Bright" target on a sunny day compared
to one on a cloudy day(HA). YOU ARE THE MAN!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 13:55:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
Why the restriction to 150-155 gr. class bullets? I would think that
all of the 155gr. bullets would perform pretty much the same relative to
one another but going to a heavier bullet would improve things considerably.
Terry (tshoes) and elevation range:
I would think that is the entire action is bedded in a fashion to where it runs "uphill" or "downhill" in the stock, the relationship between the barrel and action to the mounting system and scope would be unchanged and so the adjustment range would also remain unchanged. What are the spec for that particular scope? The amount of adjustment avaialable varies from model to model. Cat get to Leupolds website right now of I'd look it up myself.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 14:13:54 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.204.125)
Your delemma... you didn't say a few things...
Is the Badger base tapered, or flat?
If it's flat, go to the tapered base, and that will give you another
20 moa, for the full range of 72 moa (you will be able to shoot into the
next county ;)
If the base alread has a 20 moa taper, then consider Richard Near's base... he has a 40 moa tapered base for the Rem 700, and that will give you the extra taper you need.
As was said by another... it's NOT the bedding... only the scope/mount combination... and you have a total of 72 moa in the scope.
I prefer that my target style scopes have their zero just off the bottom of the elevation, so it all "up" from there.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 14:44:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.188.89.243)
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 16:46:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.153)
The source is http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S069522.DOC
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 17:51:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
204.162.86.225)
Mike: you're welcome in Utah. Heck, come join the rest of the "California outcasts" that are here, about 1/3 our population ;-) Hey man, send me your address so I can send you a check. I WANT those cuffs!
Hey Doc: thanks for the heads up. Gonna go get it. Can't get enough Stephen Hunter.
Robert: Tom is right on. I always shot 168's, but tried the 175 SMK's for long range at the prodding of several here. I wouldn't switch back for cash. Unless it was a LOT of cash. Or unless I was only going to 500 or 600 yards.
PeteR: you tell 'em! I thought that was why riflemen keep 22's around. Cheap shooting, keeping tight. Airgun? Same difference (similar delta), if it keeps you tight, what the heck? M-16's at 25 yards? Seen PLENTY of it myself (reservists shooting, not me)! Just shoot at a postage stamp sized target, and have that bull about 0.223" wide ;-)
Pat: got paid today, so I'm gonna go pick up some of the stuff. Hopefully I'll have purty dies in no time. If not, gonna cry on the letter and send 'em back to see if RCBS, Lyman and Redding will replace or refurbish. Will keep all informed, might come in handy!
Extra credit question of the day: How many things are the federal
government ALLOWED to do constitutionally? And no James, you're not elligible
for the gold star on this one ;-)
Brew Master Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Friday, June 30, 2000
at
18:09:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
PS. You have an exellent website.
James Lehman <Jlehman007@aol.com>
USA - Friday, June 30, 2000 at 19:28:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.200.44)