From: Don Bain
Date: 9. May 96 21:33
I had a talk with someone "back East", in the Tri-State region, who
described for me the distinctions between the M118 and M852 rounds. It
seems that in the late '70's to early 80's, the snipers wanted to use the
same round that the long range competitors were using. The appropriate
evaluation center performed an examination of Sierra, Lapua, Hornady, and
Speer bullets. Of course, the Sierra bullet was the 168 gr. BTHP MatchKing,
Lapua submitted its 170 gr. FMJ-type bullet, and one of the other companies
used a Chinese clone of the MatchKing. Of course, the Sierra came out #1.
The clone was poorly constructed and ended up last. The eval. center then
sent to Fort Benning blind samples of the four prospective new rounds,
with some of the control group of M118.
The shooters, being shooters, took apart the blind samples and "reverse-engineered" the rounds, figuring out which was the Lapua and the M118. The MatchKing and clone had them stumped. They concluded that the eval. center sent them two sets of MatchKings to "fool" them. Accordingly, the shooters' outcome with the rounds was Sierra MatchKing, #1, and MatchKing clone, a close #2. Apparently, the shooters were convinced that the clone was the real thing and they were determined to shoot up to the capabilities of the bullet - thus making an otherwise mediocre bullet (the clone) look like the real thing. I gather that the shooters' community is very tied to the Sierra MatchKing and don't like shooting much else. (If you know one who's been around a while, ask him about the time Lapua won the contract to provide the bullet used in the M852!)
The M118 and M852 are both in use and the reason has nothing to do with the "Genveva" Convention. (See the March/April Archive, if you don't already know.) The MatchKing bullet's boat tail has a 13 degree angle. When the bullet goes trans-sonic (around 600 yards, I believe), it becomes unstable. Interestingly, Sierra has until recently (see below) refused to redesign the bullet to accomodate the Army. (Hint to the Army: Make them do it under the Defense Production Act of 1950.) The M118 173 gr. FMJ does not become unstable and is more stable past 600 yards.
The problem with the current sniper rounds is the trade-off between velocity and pressure. This came up when I asked why the military isn't using for the M24 a round with the 180 gr. BTHP MatchKing, as referenced in Mr. Parks' Memorandum on Sniper Use of Open-Tip Bullets. (Federal made some of this. If you can find it, it goes for $275/500 rounds.) He explained that after 170 - 175 gr. there is a problem with getting sufficient velocity out of the bullet without having unsafe pressures in the rifle. (In fact, Lake City apparently had a lot of problems with this trade-off in 1986. They couldn't get a good powder combination that would give them needed velocitiy at tolerable pressures.)
So what is the Army going to do? Apparently, there is a new sniper bullet program underway (nothing definite yet, though). One of the parameters, it seems, is getting a bullet which can perform more accurately that the M118 or M852 at distances over 800 meters. That could mean a revised and re-engineered 173 gr. FMJ or 168 gr. MatchKing. It could also mean something different. My guess is that given the constraints imposed by physics, it would probably be in the 165 - 175 gr. range. But hey, what do I know? As for the M118, I would say it's done well since being fielded in 1963. And the MatchKing has been around since, what, 1959?
Dave: Thanks for the archiving.
Russ: No, I don't work for the eval. center, though I'm sure you are thinking it again!
From: Bobby Whittington <WHATACOP@AOL.COM>
Date: 9. May 96 21:51
Hey, I have just located this site, and I am looking forward to getting
to know fellow snipers in both the Law enforcement and Military fields.
I am a Police sniper and I am currently holding a slot as a Sniper in the
National Guard
From: Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@PRODIGY.COM>
Date: 10. May 96 1:10
To Dave Reed, All-around-swell-guy-and-good-archiving-friend-of-mine:
THANK YOU FOR ARCHIVING!!! May you always shoot one-hole groups for the
rest of your days on Earth!
To Don Bain: Oh, come on, Don... I agree, as shooters are extending their capabilities with better optics,
better stocks, better barrels, and better triggers (yes, Don, I know about
the new "Remington" electic trigger!!!), better bullets must be developed.
Please drop me a line and tell me the Lapua story.
From: Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@PRODIGY.COM>
Follow-up to Scott's comments, April's Duty Roster (See Archives for
March/April):
I admit, I often forget that young men are reading this page. From time
to time, I see comments about some young lad wanting information about
how to become a SEAL, a Marine sniper, a Ranger, or a sniper in the Army
or for the police. I get too wrapped up in precision shooting, ballistics,
and weaponry. I make jokes with Don Bain about who makes a better rifle,
I suggest some good loads for accurate ammunition... and always, I think
about how commanders can employ snipers more effectively to support their
missions and to provide for the safety of their own troops.
All too often, I fail to mention "the other side of the coin." A man
I know, a friend of mine who I used to work for, was once a sniper for
"the Company" in Viet Nam... and other countries we were never really in
(officially, that is). He has 63 kills to his credit. To date, he is on
his fourth marriage, he pays alimony and child support out the ying-yang,
and he's gotten counseling for spousal abuse. The man has a lot of problems.
He's only now coming to grips with several things that have been buried
deep inside him for so many years. To the young men considering military
service, please listen to me. I am now assigned to a COSCOM (Corps Support
Command) but, until recently, my mission in the Army Reserve has been,
for about the past five years, to train new recruits in basic training...
at places like FT Bliss, FT Knox (my "home"), and FT Leonard Wood. I know
a lot about basic training, and the exuberance a youthful spirit has. I
know that it's too easy to be "gung ho" and do stupid things... which is,
thank God, why there is usually some good NCO nearby to give you "gentle
reminders" about how to stay alive, what to do, and what NOT to do. When
you're a sniper, however, the world is different for you, and you do not
always have "fatherly advice" on hand to guide you through some very difficult
decisions. A sniper's world is more different than anything you could EVER
imagine in your dreams... or, your worst nightmares. A sniper's life is
a tough one... it's tough at the time, and it's just as tough -- or tougher
-- after he's stopped being one. Not every person is cut out to be a sniper...
and for God's sake, this does NOT mean, if you don't become one, that you're
a "failure." I know that of 20 or so young men reading this, only one or
two will remember what I'm saying... but gentlemen, being a sniper means
killing people. Period. Do you think you close your eyes after you release
the shot? No, you maintain the sight picture, as you "follow up" your shot...
and lots of times, you get to see the immediate results of your work. Once
you've killed, you can't go back to the non-killer you were just a moment
before. The change is permanent. There are lots of ramifications, and you
may have SERIOUS problems later in life. You might be single now, but you
won't always be... if you have problems come up in later years, don't take
them out on your wife... or you won't have a wife for very long. Now, you
might be "fine" with killing people. Okay. On the other hand, you might
NOT be fine with it.
Even Carlos Hathcock has said that he never liked killing... but it
was his job, and every "hamburger" he eliminated meant that the life of
one of his brother Marines might be spared just a little bit longer. Do
you understand? It was his "job," not his "life." I hope you young men
who are thinking how "cool" it would be to be a sniper can understand the
difference.
And, finally, I'd like to give you one or two "listeners" (out of the
20) some last advice. What you do today, in your youth, you're going to
pay for tomorrow, in your old age. Physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
Keep that in mind.
Thanks for bringing up the subject, Scott, it is a good one.
From: Cal Rychwa <crychwa@bev.etn.com>
From: Scott Powers <powers@voicenet.com>
I can remember being a hot shot 18 year old with NO Boundries in view.
Luckily I didn't become involved with the infantry till 26 years of age.
That is not to say that military experience at an early age is not a good
thing but for me personally, it was a true choice made after I had been
out there working at a career for awhile. That age difference between myself
and my fellow trainees gave me a much better (I hope) perspective on just
what I was doing there. Its tough to be introspective at 18 when you REALLY
are full of piss and viniger!
Please everyone, understand I am not saying avoid military service,
it is, with the proper attitude, one of the greatest, noble and selfless
things you will ever do. I just feel uncomfortable when I read some young
skull full of mush stating how he wants to be a sniper just to waste people
and how its so cool. Snipers are one of the most valuable assests a field
commander can have. They aren't cartoon good guys raring to lay devastation
upon the enemy (well, maybe a little!). They aren't mythical warriors untouchable
by the commen plagues of man. What they are is extremely well trained and
motivated individuals who, with the firing of one shot have the ability
to denie the opposition a vital peice of equipment, leadership, a crew
served weapon that no one else nearby may be able to operate.
They are not WAY COOL.
But they are bretty BAD!
To any of you who really want to go green, By all means enlist! Just
remeber that a bunch of fat, useless beaurocrats will have the power to
waste your life for nothing (Haiti, Sumalia) while also holding in their
hands the ability to do great good. Those of us how enlisted, knew of or
learned the downside of service. Must of us chose the life anyway. But
that said just remember to go in with eyes wide open! Listen to your instructors
cause your life will depend on what you learn! This life sure aint Home
EC or wood shop. It is challangeing, fun, interesting, vital, and personally
rewarding. It can also get you killed. Visit the Wall. You grow up quick
just looking at it... Service is an interesting life. But it aint a game
of football no matter how much some idiot like Wolf Blitzer may portray
it that way.
So I failed yet again in my vow not to preach but what the hell, Most
of you could just scroll past if needed!
Next time I promise to relate a pretty good yarn from beruit. No preaching
alowed! FIDO!
From: Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@PRODIGY.COM>
From: Scott Powers <powers@voicenet.com>
Beriut, early 80's. A marine sniper I will call Mark made a slight error
in his land nav and ended up one waddi too far out. Both he and his spotter
found themselves in the unenvialbe position of having two rather irrate
diaperheads pop out of the ground, shove a knife into Marks ribs and fire
a round into the spotters chest. The two marines managed to dispact the
locals and survive the encounter. The spotters wound could be considered
a minor miricle. The round that struck him hit his sternum and shattered.
It failed to penetrate anything vital (although I'm sure the spotter considered
himself pretty darn vital at the time!). Mark survived to come back and
hunt again. The following is as best I can recall his converstaion to me
several years ago. Mark, if your out there I hope you don't mind. You told
it pretty well, I hope I can do you justice! Please forgive any liscence
I take to tell it properly!
After recovering from his wound the sniper was assigned an AO overlooking
an area that contained an old oil drum. This was a rather large affair
and made a perfect range marker. The locals would creep in at night to
drain off some crude to start their cooking fires. One evening the sniper
and his spotter simply couldn't resist the chance to screw with the opposition
a little. A knife wound in the chest does tend to give one a bad attitude.
Our intrepid marksmen waited until the band had started to settle in
around their fires and at an opportune moment, dropped a round into the
drum. At the GONG the militia scattered into the surrounding darkness with
much chattering and arabic profanities. Mark and his spotter quitely slit
their guts laughing over the whole incident.
Figuring that things had settled down for the night the two snipers
went about doing what snipers do. Observing, noting, and quietly waiting.
After an undetermind amount of time, and much to the surprise of the two
marines, the band of locals crept back to the tank and started their fires
again. This was just too much for the young duo so after a short conversation
they repeated the previous engagement. Same Results. Off into the darkness
the diaperheads went.
Now at this point let me interject a comment for the politically correct
amoung you: Diaperhead was the term Mark used often when refering to his
targets. If you have a problem with that, tough. Try to shoot someone while
thinking of them as someones elses father and you will see the need for
deragatory nomenclature. But I digress!
Anyway, the evening went on as before. After a short time the cheeky
little buggers crept back and started up the fires again. Desperation may
drive men to act irrationally but Mark just figured they simply had wound
their Diaper too tight. This time he waited until food was well under way
and the smell of it wafted toward his possition. Taking very carefull aim
he laid his cross hairs on a particularly sucullent hunk of lamb? and went
into his breathing routine. In. out. in. Puase halfway out again. Crack!
The meat exploded as the .308 slammed into it, driving wet goo all over
the startled goumets.
Having broken a prime rule of sniping, Mark and his buddy almosts paid
for their hubris. You just don't want to piss off 30 guys with AK style
weapons! That third shot gave the bad guys just enough of an idea of the
marines firing position they they turn enmasse and leg go with every rifle
they had! Our two mischeivoius heroes burrowed into their fighting position
as a hail of buzzing projectile snapped around their hide.
The nights "fun" was definately over.
The Range as told to me was 300 to 400 yards. Sorry all you techno freaks
but can't recall the scope used. Don't know if night vision was involved
or not. In respect for Mark I wont go into any more detail about him personnally
but I may try to get his permission to relate a few other experiances.
he is ONE HELL of a good shot. His Personnal rifle of choice now that big
brother is not footing the bill is a Savage 110 Tactical something or other
in .223 and I can attest to its fine accuracy. Russ T., that last line
was just for you!
From: Sealgaire <mafein@hargray>
From: Mike Curtis <strider@why.net>
From: ?????? ??????
From: Wm C Biddle <cbiddle@voyager.net>
From: Philip Blair <peblair@ix.netcom.com>
From: Maj G Yuzichuk <CdnABRegt@aol.com>
Snipers are often forgotten in FTXs and in overall unit capabilities
in this age of high tech mech army. I suggest to field commanders to get
acquainted with the snipers in their organizations and spend a day or two
on their hands and knees stalking and learn about the int gathering asset
they got.
Soft landings.
From: Scott <powers@voicenet.com>
, I truly did believe I was having
a server problem at my end. You are welcome to think of me what you will.
I made a mistake and fest up to it. At least I have the "honor and dignity"
to provide my name and e-mail address so others can comment directly to
me instead of hiding behind a psudonym. You may have reasons for that which
I can respect. But don't judge me by one mistake. You run the risk of committing
the same close mindedness you accuse me of. Look, I am not interested in
getting into a war of words with you. We are all here because of a common
interest in things military and presision shooting. I appologiesed and
if that is not good enough, then it is your problem not mine. I contacted
Dave about removing the multile messages as soon as I realized what happened.
Hopefully he can purge the system. As far as my repeating what "Mark" said
in his commentary, if it offended you that was not my intention but I don't
believe in altering things as told to me just to avoid a possible confrontation.
I know in my heart I am neither a racist or a biggot. I do not need to
qualify that to you any further. My friends with in the service and with
out know the truth of this. If I have any growing up left to do, it is
in the area of how to react to people such as yourself who seem to enjoy
blasting others.
I will happily appolgies to the rest of you again for the misshap and
also if my repeating of "Mark's" words upset you. I genuinely thought his
story worth telling. No insult was intended. This is a fine page about
a controversial but interesting subject. Sorry for the disraction.
Anonymus...Truce??
From: Brian P. Cooke <bpcooke@wam.umd.edu>
From: charles riggs <dvccnr45@aol.com>
From: Lee <grandpahb@linknet.net>
From: Gary Turner <gary_turner@prodigy.com>
Thanks for the information on the ammo. It is very interesting. I am
thinking about contacting the CMD of the DCM about getting some of the
M118 173 gr. FMJ bullets. I am wondering if they are less expensive than
the Sierra 168s. I want to try some in my Garand and M1A.
Gary
From: Gary Turner <gary_turner@prodigy.com>
That was some very good advise you guys gave. Many of the young visitors
needed it badly. Thank you.
Gary
From: Scott <powers@voicenet.com>
From: KEITH LESTER <longshot@ai2a.net>
From: KEITH LESTER <longshot@ai2a.net>
From: KEITH LESTER <longshot@ai2a.net>
From: Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@PRODIGY.COM>
I don't think the Duty Roster is the place for lengthy advertisements,
but if any of you are interested in getting an ArmaLite, or if you have
SPECIFIC questions that you'd like me to answer, I'll take all your questions
by E-mail.
To Gary: Thanks for the kind words.
From: Miro Z-man <smarusic@island.net>
please forward any info to the above e-mail address. My buddy will relay
the info to me.
Member of sniper team 12. Coast marksmen.
From: SGT. Gimmellie <none>
From: KEITH LESTER <longshot@ai2a.net>
From: KEITH LESTER <longshot@ai2a.net>
From: Gary Turner <gary_turner@prodigy.com>
Gary
From: Roger Jonsson <roger.jonssonmbox303.swipnet.se>
From: SEALGAIRE <mafein@hargray>
From: SEALGAIRE <mafein@hargray>
From: Don Bain
Gary Turner: Glad you liked the posting. Check out the March/April archive
for more on the subject. 173 gr. bullets are $95/1000 and you must be a
member of a club affiliated with DCM. Loaded ammo (M118) is available as
well, but only affiliated clubs can buy it. Remember what Major Plaster
says about the 173 gr. BTFMJ, the tolerances of this bullet are not as
high as the 168 gr. MatchKing. My contact at the eval. ctr. confirmed this.
For example, the tolerance for concentricity of the MatchKing bullet is
.003, while the M118 bullet was supposed to be .007, but was relaxed because
Lake City could not accomplish that high a tolerance. Further, I mentioned
the new sniper bullet program. Check out the Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition
Rifle Reloading Manual. Sierra refers to the 175 gr. BTHP MatchKing as
the result of a cooperative effort between Sierra and the Army to develop
a new bullet for the M21 and M24 systems. This might be what my contact
was referring to. I doubt that is what Major Plaster refers to in "Ultimate
Sniper" when he talks about the changes ongoing with the M118 bullet.
Russ Taylor: Got your e-mail. Thanks. Frankly, I was unaware of Remington's
electric trigger, though I knew that precision pistol shooters have been
using such triggers. A few things come to mind. Is an electric trigger
a good idea for a service sniper rifle exposed to severe elements. I envision
the thing shorting out or running out of power JUST when it is needed.
Also, what are the ramifications of an electric trigger for a semi-auto
weapon? Instead of machine tools and metal fabrication, the guy wanting
to illegally convert his semi-auto to full-auto (in violation of federal
law - 6 yrs. in the "can" with Ben Dover and his equally heinous friends
and a $50,000 fine) would go to Radio Shack?!? Oh yeah, ATF is going to
let this out on the market. Finally, I would think that with an electric
or electronic trigger, the shooter would not know when the round was going
to discharge. This seems contrary to the requirements of the sniper, knowing
exactly when and at what target the bullet was going.
Don
From: Matt Hillebrand <hillebrand@midplains.net>
From: Don Bain
From: Ray Foley <rfoley@conc.tdsnet.com>
Ray OSOK
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Keith: Looks like you already got several answers to your question.
Let me add a few thoughts. Apparently, PR does very quick work. One day,
my friend hasn't quite decided what scope he wants. Next day (not literally)
he calls me and says "Guess what I just got in the mail?" Additionally,
how can there be two different mil-dot systems? The distance subtended
by two dots either IS a milliradian (approx. 36" @ 1000 yards) or ISN'T.
I'd be interested in more details regarding what Ray read. Maybe he (the
writer) was talking about different size dots (like I posted a week or
two ago).
Jay
From: Classified(call me Neil) <huey73@aol.com>
From: Russell E. Taylor <DQBW77A@PRODIGY.COM>
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
Serious guys, down here in the furthest south of dark, savage Africa,
my darn Netscape even times out on loading this 93K roster. Scott, I look
forward to more tall tales - only read the first one yet ( seen it about
ten times scrolling down though ), the rest, if any exist yet, is still
trying to get loaded. Marius
From: Cory Wilson <wilsonc@doacs.state.fl.us>
To whoever asked about the Springfield gov'mnt II Gen Scope...It's wonderful!!!
Yes, it is calibrated for the .308 168gr. match bullet. The scope has normal
duplex cross hairs, but then it has ranging brackets that run downward
on the verticle wire of the cross hair. you bracket a target of a "known"
size and then hold there and fire. My explanation is a little simplistic...there's
a little more to it than that the instructions are a little clearer. The
2nd gen. also has windage and elevation knobs and a cool bubble level.
Use the tilt harris bipod...You will be a happy Camper!!!
To "anonymous" If you are so proud of yourself, where is your e-mail
address?? The gentleman telling the story was doing just that...telling
a story that someone told him...namely the gentleman that lived through
the experience...and in doing so he is bound as a story teller to reproduce
the story faithfully...Did you ever read "Tom Sawyer" or Huck Finn?? In
the uncorrected version, the word "nigger" is used. while I find that word
distasteful and would not use it myself. You cannot change a piece of literature
to suit everyone. And according to the liberal socialist rules of engagement
"YOU" have to respect the story tellers different culture and way of seeing
the world in the same exact way you expect him to respect yours...and by
the way...calling some one a "RACIST" (sp??) is the same as calling him
any other derogatory racial or sexist slur...according to your own Liberal
Socialist rules....my own dear conservative Mother taught me that two wrongs
never make anything right....
Dave Reed: Sorry I got on my Soap box...I promise I will not do it again
on the Duty Roster.
From: Cory Wilson <wilsonc@doacs.state.fl.us>
From: Ray Foley <rfoley@conc.tdsnet.com>
See ya, Ray OSOK
From: Charles <SFsnipe (aol)>
From: Bruce Dally <brusica@bbrcompany.com>
Thanks Bruce
From: Roy Harrison <harrisro.mcmurdo@mcmurdo.gov>
To Anonymous: You were neither polite nor courteous.Where is the honor
and dignity in "Anonymous". I belive most of us reading a site of this
nature can handle derogatory words such as diaperhead, hamburger, idiot
or racist. However,the way these words are used can be much more offensive
than the word itself.
To Philip Blair: I remember reading that the .300 win mag does better
with longer barrels and slower burning powder.I belive I read this in one
of the Wildcat reference books but I'm not sure.If I find this info again
I'll let you know.I own a Remington 700 .300 wm with a 26" barrel. Whether
a 22" barrel would be better, I can't say.
From: Pierre DELORME <aj2u43@bat710.univ-lyon1.fr>
From: Mike Rutsch <Jimr@primenet.com>
From: M.Gustafsson <----------------->
1 shoot 1 kill!
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
I must say, I have seen rifles and calibres mentioned here that I never
knew existed, and definately are not available in South Africa. I am still
trying to figure out what is being discussed most of the time - hell, might
as well be reading Greek.
Greeting from sunny South Africa ( Dark Africa now - 22H26 ) Marius
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Jay
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
I do not think I have yet seen the name of the Barnes-X bullets on this
forum, nor the Woodleigh bullets, to name just some. Does this mean that
these are not accurate at distance, or merely that they are hunting bullets
and not sniping/target bullets? Will going for headshots make a difference
in bullet selection from making body shots? Talking hunting now. For example,
will it be feasible to use the Matchking bullets for hunting when going
for the head? What is the sentiment about monolithic-hollow-point ammunition
such as the Barnes-X bullet? ( Haven't used them yet ) Apart from it being
longer that normal jacketed ammo, does it cause other difficulties?
I have a lot of respect for the art of sniping - haven't done it myself,
and hope I never have to. I don't have anything against it, having been
in our bush wars on the ( then ) South West Africa and Angola border. Enough
of that though.
Will see next week what brings to this page.
Tot siens ( "Good bye" in Afrikaans )
From: seth <stap7062@badger.snow.edu>
Thanks,
Seth
From: William B. Snyder <wilb@inetone.com>
From: Scott Powers <powers2voicenet.com>
To SEALGAIRE: For what its worth, here is my pet load for my 26" Remington
700 VS in 22-250. Understand that this works I my rifle only and that it
took several weeks to narrow it down. Yours may throw shots all over the
county with the same load. I use 50gr. Nosler ballistic tips. I find them
to have very cood consistency in construction, weight, etc. You may be
better served by the 55gr. round or even heavier. Anyway: 50gr. Nosler
ballistic tip. 33.8 grs of IMR 4895. Recorded velocity of 3450 average.
This seems slow to me for the caliber but it groups consistently at .345
to .475 depending on me. I will be working up a load with IMR 4064 just
for the heck of it and will let you know how it turns out. VV Oy sounds
awsome but I have not tried it yet.
To: Russell T: Good luck and good shooting. Sometimes I actually miss
it! Even hot nasty Honduras.
To Marius: Yes I admitt it. I have won the ignominuious "most posting
award". Hopefully this will not be an anual compition!
To Cory W: Nice Soap box! I loved it. I will try to get "Mark" to loosen
up on an incident between himself and a gentleman with a Dragonov. Not
much of a fight actually. The idoit was strolling out in the open with
it slung on his back. Not particularly intelligent. After having an opportunitity
to examine the weapon up close Mark had some pretty derrogatory things
to say about it. Good accuracy for what it was but not even close to our
standards. Anyone considering buying one of the current crop of imports
for anything other then novelty might reconsider.
To Marius: Using a Matchking on the likes of Eland, Cape Buffolo or
any game for that matter would NOT be your first choice! The question is
valid tho as many people see Hollow Point in the name HPBT and assume it
is a hunting round. Refer to earlier commentaries on the 168 HPBT by Mr.
Blain or Russ T. for details. But let me tell it would be akin to driving
a high velocity Pencil into your game. No usefull expansion. Yes it may
kill it, but not Necessarily that day. The Barns-X, Swift A-frame, Nosler
partition bullets all are much better suited and humane on game animals.
They expand to around .70 calibers while retaining most of their weight
due to their compartmentalized design. Stick to premium hunting loads and
you can't go wrong. The BIG solids you blokes use kill by brute force as
opposed to expansion. The 168HBPT is not in the same league. A friend from
Kenya just took a Cape Buff using a .300 win mag but the shot was well
placed in the heart lung area at close range (50 meters). Try that with
a head shot and 50/50 will get you flattened! Of course, one of africa's
more prolific hunters used to down elephant with a .375 HH for his entire
carrier. So obviously well constructed bullets of smaller caliber and kick
can do the job. Welcome ashore!
From: Mike Arnos <gbarnos@bright.net>
From: SEALGAIRE <mafein@hargray>
From: Scott <powers@voicenet.com>
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
Dave, I'm sorry, I know this is not what this place is all about, but
I just needed to get this off my chest - thanks for the opportunity, and
for providing a place like this where like-minded people will understand
the turmoil in one's heart.
Marius
From: Komet
From: LEGION <geo99rge@map.com>
I was under the impression that Congress had specifically forbidden
BATF from keeping this kind of information on law abiding citizens. Am
I right or wrong and if I'm right what can be done about this egregious
violation of privacy?
Anybody else from Massachusetts out there infuriated by this outrage?
And by the way, the Democrats in Boston are real close to getting their
semi-auto ban.
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
Getting back to the premium hunting bullets - no sacrifice of accuracy?
Tot siens
Marius
From: SR25 IP
From: John Main
Regards
Good page
From: Don Bain
I wasn't going to comment on all this, but I was "TDY'ed" for a few
days this week and as a result of the travel, I finished Clancy's latest
Op-Center novel. The theme was neo-nazi racism. When I got back I felt
I should provide a somewhat contrary view to the majority expressed here.
I must agree with those who have castigated "Anonymous" for his blasting
of Scott's multiple postings. IT DOES HAPPEN to everyone who posts a long
article on this page at least once. Sometimes more than that.
I don't think that Scott meant anything derogatory by use of "diaperhead"
or his defense of using that term, and so I think "Anonymous" was overboard
in his castigation on that point as well. However, I do not agree with
those who think that it is O.K. to dehumanize one's enemy by use of racially
derogatory terms, nor do I think such language, when used in earnest, has
a place on this page. It seems to me, as an American, that what makes this
country unique among all that are, have been, or ever will be, is that
anyone is accepted in this country, regardless of creed or origin. Even
though, as Americans, we may have the right to speak ill of others based
upon their race, religion, or ethnicity, we don't because we're above that.
And in very few limited situations, may we legally discriminate on the
basis of race or religion. Nor, generally speaking, do we tolerate such
behavior. Indeed, the "religious nuts with guns" who founded this country
(as P.J. O'Rourke has called them) recognized this and put in place the
First Amendment to our Constitution. That Constitution wasn't perfect and
after the Civil War, the country added the Thirteenth through Fifteenth
Amendments to further protect and recognize that all persons are created
equal. In support of our strongly held beliefs, we have even sent our soldiers
to fight and die against governments who implicitly or explicitly discriminated
against segments of their society, as well as those of their neighbors.
Where am I going with this? First, while Americans have the right to
think and speak as they wish, I believe that real Americans don't tolerate
intolerance and they certainly don't participate in intolerance. That's
not being liberal or socialist, that's adhering to the vision this country's
founding fathers had of their new nation. (In point of fact, is the liberals
and the socialists who disobey these fundamental principals when they seek
to enforce quotas, etc.)
Second, this page is read by more than adult Americans and military
and law enforcement types interested in precision shooting, it is read
by teenagers and interested net surfers around the world. Regarding younger
readers, Scott and Russ have spoken out on the perils of a glamorized view
of war and sniping and they are right. Younger readers must not read this
page and think "these guys are having fun talking about killing people
from long distances, ergo, it must be fun to do so." Scott and Russ, I
think you have brought home the point that this line of work is not "fun"
and killing people is not "fun", though sometimes it is very necessary.
In a broader sense, the point I believe you were making was that one must
be careful not to give younger readers a false impression of reality which
they may want to emulate. I say the point is correct, and furthermore,
it applies to how we view and treat our opponents, and by extension, their
countrymen. Hathcock used the word "hamburger" for his opponents/targets
because to him they were meat, dead meat. They were less than human, but
not in a way that would suggest their countrymen were also "subhuman" and
by implication also deserving of death. Nor did he ever treat unarmed civilians
as "hamburgers" and shoot them. Of course, dehumanization is necessary
in combat - taking another's life is never easy - but doing so by making
derogatory references to the opponent's race or religion isn't. When such
references are used, they often make clear that the combatant's reason
for wanting to kill his opponent isn't due to political disagreement (acceptable
under the laws of war), but due to dislike of that opponent's race or religion
(most definitely not acceptable under international law). The Nazis and
Japanese did that, Saddam did that (just ask the Kurds and Sunnis) and
the Serbs in the former Yugoslavia have been doing that (killing Bosnians
for no other reason than they are followers of Islam). Americans don't
do this and shouldn't do this, nor should there ever be any implicit support
for the view that it is O.K. to dehumanize somebody becase of race or religion
and it REALLY isn't O.K. to kill somebody because of those reasons. Younger
readers need to know that as well. As for the impact of foreign readers
of this page, such language reinforces negative stereotypes held by others
around the world about Americans. Also, it is disrespectful to those who
are of the group that has been slurred. I don't know about you, but I don't
like being abroad and hearing Americans called derogatory names. Foreigners
who read this page probably don't like it either.
One final point, and I'll get off my soapbox. Scott brings up a good
point when he talks about the stupidity of the ROE ("Rules of Engagement")
which existed in Beirut, severly limiting the military's ability to protect
itself. But Scott, you seem to say that because the political leadership
hamstrung those soldiers, and then because some coward blew up the Marine
barracks, killing so many of them, that it is O.K. for solders to use racial
dehumanization? (Forgive me, Scott, but this sounds like situational ethics
to me.) I can fully understand a soldier's feelings in that context, but
I do not agree with them. To that soldier, my response is simple: My Lai.
The ROE in Viet Nam, and even the whole mission, were illogical and harmful
to the soldiers' effectiveness and their well-being. Coupled with a dislike
along racial lines (and not just political disagreement) of the VC and
NVA, there were soldiers who viewed vietnamese, any vietnamese, as subhuman
and not worthy of life. (Having friends killed by "civilians didn't help.)
As a result a lot of noncombatants were killed. I'm sure that a whole bunch
of the victims at that massacre had aided and abetted the VC or NVA, but
they weren't engaged in combat or wearing the opposition's uniform, and
so they should not have been killed. They were killed because of what they
were, vietnamese, and that is never the right reason to kill someone. Doubtless,
the seed from which this massacre grew was the dehumanization on racial
grounds of the enemy. Of course, the enemy looked exactly like the friendlies.
. . As Americans, whether civilians or soldiers, we must adhere to certain
standards no matter what others around us do (including our opponents).
We don't change our conduct, even if the opposition is evil, depraved,
and beyond redemption. If we do, how do we distinguish ourselves from them?
Only by degree. That's not what we or this country are about.
Enough of that. I actually am looking forward to more of Mark's experiences
and maybe some of yours in Honduras.
Don
From: Brian Ashe
From: Matt Shuster <mshuster@dfsc.dla.mil>
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Jay
From: Scott <powers@voicenet.com>
To Marius: I am greatly saddened to hear about your friend. There is
an unfortunate abundance of evil on this earth. No law, good intention
or political verbage will ever change that - but it is terrible when it
strike close to home. You have my condolences.
As far as Acceptable Accuracy is conserned...You must first define accuracy.
In a hunting load, 1.5 inches for big game is more then acceptable. The
kill zone in most game (varmints excluded) is much large by five to eight
times. Even our beautiful whitetail deer has a circular lung area of about
8-10 inches. So accuracy in this case could be defined as any consistant
group that will assure a strike within an 8 inch area at 100 yards/meter
on a stationary target. Any premium factory load in a reasonably good rifle
will certainly do that. Anything better is just icing on the cake. That
said, it IS far better to see tighter groups for they impart confidence,
which really does help accuracy. They also allow for small errors due to
wind or bad form. I have dropped deer dead at long range KNOWING my shot
was dead ON only to find it had struck 3 inches left of my point of aim.
Tight groups give you that margine.
I have no desire to drop an elephant but forced to I wouldn't want anything
less then a .416 rigby or better yet a .416 remington mag. Even then I
would not be comfortable (call me a woose!). J. Taylor, while a great hunter,
was NUTS! But for the plains game you mention, I am sure the premium factory
loads now coming out will more then do the job. For great reading on the
subject try to find anything by Craig Boddington. He has had good experiance
traveling to your continent and is quite a hunter. His knowledge and advice
on caliber and marksmanship are very sound. I will get you the titles if
need be.
From: scott <powers@voicenet.com>
We were always paired with a local troop for guard duty while in camp.
This made for some interesting times as few of us spoke either language.
One morning around 1:45 A.M. while my partner and I were trying very quietly
to interpret the phrase for "you want to trade?", a very faint sound carried
to our LP. The look in my friends eyes didn't not fill me with confidence.
Our position was not very well concealed and we were pretty sure any one
could have scoped it out during the day. A sand bagged pit served as the
main obstacle to unwelcome guests attempting to visit the camp. We quietly
laid in wait, eyes cresting the top of the bags, straining to see movement.
Tension mounting as time dragged on. I began to believe that who ever was
out there was very good. They moved very slowly, usually when a slight
breeze rose up, as if trying to hide their sound. This went on for perhaps
and hour, leading me to believe that we were possibly dealing with a trained
sniper. He obviously had hunting experience at the least. "La municion!"
(ammunition) whispered the Honduran.
By that time I had carefully removed the tape and loaded the weapon.
I was pretty convinced that several men were trying to low crawl past the
LP and take up a position just outside the camp. They were so close now
we could hear individual scraping sounds as they snaked along the ground.
The night was dark and the surrounding area had very tall grass. Not the
best place for visibility. Our camp was situated in a valley between two
ridge lines, exposed. Tall grass and fern like foliage abounded. Briefly
I cursed the gent who picked this piece of real estate to call home. Ahead,
the grass began to part.
Sighting over the tops of our rifles, we both exhaled simultaneously
as a figure began to emerge before us. My friend called out a challenge
in Spanish. "MMMOOOOooohh" floated quietly back. We gagged like silly children
as the form took shape into the biggest damn buffalo I have ever seen!
I bit my lip trying to suppress an explosive laugh. Lost. Said the heck
with it and busted up like a four year old. Didn't realize just how tense
we were. Things got worse as the stinking beast, obviously tame, shuffled
over to our position and stood guard with us till the end of our shift!
Our Relief had it worse. The beast had wandered off just before I turned
in. Apparently it came back later and crashed through the wire! Mayhem
broke loose with the guards as they thought a small force had just infiltrated
the camp! The racket this buffalo made was unbelievable! A true wonder
was that no shots were fired!
The Shining Path or Nicaraguans couldn't have trained a better troop!
This was one STEALTHY cow...
If you guys liked that one let me know. I don't want to bore anyone
with non-tech stuff but I do have one or two more interesting (hopefully)
shorts to share.
From: Don Bain
MatchKing Update: I came across some more materials on the military's
decision to use the MatchKing as a sniper round. It seems the Army started
using the 168 gr. MatchKing in competition at the Camp Perry matches in
August of 1980. It was not until just before Desert Storm though that the
bullet was found lawful for use in combat. In 1993, the Army prepared a
memorandum to the Naval Surface Warfare Center, stating that that the various
sized MatchKing bullets were also lawful. The particular caliber/bullet
combination in which the Navy seemed to be interested was the .300 Win.
Mag with the 190 gr. MatchKing (now who could be interested in such a combination
at the Navy?). Finally, the Wound Ballistics Review (the journal of the
International Would Ballistics Association), Vol. 2, No. 2, has some interesting
articles on the MatchKing. Empirical evidence indicates that the MatchKing
is not a great round for law enforcement sniping under 200 yds. The bullet
does not expand (perpetrators have actually survived after being hit!)
and the bullets often travel a ways past the target. I'll have more on
this later.
By the way, I think the article log is broken.
From: Edward Card <edcard@intercall.com>
From: SEALGAIRE <mafein@hargray>
From: Scott C. <Wrsthluv@aol.com>
From: Craig Stull <cstull@usa.net>
From: Craig Stull <cstull@usa.net>
I'm getting my Barrett (early fathers day gift to my self) on Wednesday.
I guess I better buy some .50 BMG ammo. Anybody know some places where
the prices are "reasonable"?
Craig
From: Don Bain
From: Darkman <Darkman@Vance.net>
From: Roy Harrison <harrisro.mcmurdo@mcmurdo.gov>
I am also interested in the BlackStar barrel treatment and if it is
all it is clained to be.
From: Gary Turner <gary_turner@prodigy.com>
I have tried moly coated bullets in my Savage 112 .223 Remington. Berger
Bullets, the custom match bullet maker, sells bullets coated with moly
and carnuba wax. They use the patented NECO process. The bullets are $2
more than the regular bullets in all sizes up to 150 gr. .308. All sizes
larger than that are $4 more than the regular bullets. Their phone number
is (602) 842-4001.
I have used their coated 55 and 60 gr. .224 bullets. The reduction of
copper fouling and the ease of cleaning is marvelous. I can regularly shoot
less than .5 MOA with these bullets. The best group I have shot with them
was .226 MOA.
I have a very strong opinion about copper fouling. If I had my choice,
all my rifles would have stainless steel barrels. With properly broken
it stainless barrels, copper fouling is very minimal. That being said,
I think that the Blackstar Barrel Accurizing process would be beneficial
to chromoly barrels. They do not smooth out as well whem they have been
properly broken in. I have had to Fire lap a chromoly barrel to make it
stop getting severly copper fouled. Neither the Blackstar process or fire
lapping are necessary with stainless steel barrels. This has been my experience
and is my opinion. Others may have had other experiences and have other
opinions.
GAry
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
His gun is an L.A.R. Grizzly. 36" barrel, bull pup design. AR-15 style
grip and safety. It's a really short gun with a really long barrel. Pretty
neat combo for a .50. He just received a Leupold Mk IV M1 (target knobs)
from Premier Reticle. He had them bump the power up to 20X and install
a mil-dot reticle with 1/4 mil mil-dots as opposed to the standard 3/4
mil mil-dots. It's hard to hit somebody (oops! a man-sized silouette, I
mean), or a car, or whatever, at 1500 meters when he's covered by a big,
black dot!!! The cross-hairs are accordingly thinner.
Keep us posted on ALL the details of your experiences with the Barrett.
Darkman/Roy: Read the March/April roster (do some searches) to get more
info on Blackstar. There is some personal experience on the roster.
Jay
From: Anonymous
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
I've heard that the Light Fifty (10-shot semi-auto) isn't all that accurate.
Interestingly, Knight's Mfg. is coming out with a gun called the Stoner
.50, designed, of course, by Eugene Stoner. If it shoots anything like
the SR-25, I'll be wanting one. It kind of looks like a giant SR-25. Don't
know how long the barrel is, though. That 36" barrel is very appealing
on a big gun like that.
Jay
From: SAGI <acog@msn.com>
From: Sagi <acog@msn.com>
From: Don Bain
Jay: Isn't the SR50 based on the WWII German MG42? I thought also that
the magazine sticks out the side, and not out the bottom? Anyway, it looks
pretty cool. I understand it is going to be priced competitively with the
Barrett, though it still will be pretty steep.
From: Don Bain
You make a good point. If it's my life or his, day in and day out, I
am really not going to like that guy very much. I might even hate him!
I only wanted to make the points that we who post here frequently must
consider the possible implications of our comments with regard to those
different from us, just as we must consider the implications of our disscussions
concerning sniping (whether its "cool" to kill somebody, etc.) and that
as Americans (especially those who are the thin blue and green lines for
the rest of us), we must put aside our frailties and weaknesses and strive
to meet a higher standard when facing our enemies. In war, you must kill,
but you don't do so needlessly, indiscriminately, or with the intent to
cause greater suffering than necessary. Furthermore, you do so only to
protect and defend freedom and liberty - not becuase we're "us" and they're
"them." Sorry, I'll stop. Anyway, I enjoyed your posting, albeit somewhat
late.
Don
From: Pierre DELORME <aj2u43@bat710.univ-lyon1.fr>
From: JIM ERICKSON <CODY@CDSNET.NET>
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Sounds like you know more about the Stoner .50 than I do. But then,
I don't know too much about it. Just saw a brief clip in "Weapons for Law
Enforcement," I think. There should be a review coming up.
I guess what I meant regarding its resembling the SR-25 was just that
it's black and real mean looking! (You're right about the side-mounted
clip.)
Also, thanks for responding to my previous posting.
Jay
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
To Scott, for me accuracy is being able to head-shoot a stationary Springbuck,
( smallest game ), at 300 metres - every time a clean kill.
If my ammo can do that, I'm happy.
Now another question for all the reloaders: What is opinions on neck-sizing?
What is the effect on accuracy ( as outlined above ), and on the case-life?
And if good, what dies? Set or variable?
I've heard varying reports both ways.
Marius
From: SEALGAIRE <mafein@hargray>
From: Scott <powers@voicenet.com>
I neck size most of my loads but there is a lot to be said for full
length resizing a hunting load. The most obvious reason is easy chambering.
I have noticed a definate increase in life cycle for the neck sized loads.
From: Don Bain
Moreover, what about Zimbabwe if you know? A good friend goes there
(from the States) every other year and he has invited us to join him. Given
that the white minority is much smaller in the former Rhodesia than it
is in the R.S.A., and given too that the new regime seems more socialist/communist
than the ANC-led government, civil and economic liberties are most definitely
on the wane in that country. Accordingly, I have been hesitant to sign
on to this year's trip. (I should note, generally, when I travel, I prefer
to "pack.") What are your thoughts?
Jay: I read the same magazine. My mistake, the article states that the
SR-50 is based upon the FG42 (Feld Gewehr?), not MG42. It DOES look really
cool.
Don
From: Roy Harrison <harrisro.mcmurdo@mcmurdo.gov>
From: Bob Gardner <bgardner@p05.dasd.honeywell.com>
Know of any mfgr. making cartridges using moly-coated bullets?
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
I've heard that military folks who shoot the .50 BMG are limited to
20 shots a day, because, if you shoot more than that, the retinas on your
eyeballs will be loosened (or something to that effect - also, it took
a few seconds for me to think of the word "retina" - I kept thinking "reticle"
- HA!). It wouldn't surprise me if this is actually true. I shot my friend's
Grizzly and it sure rattled my brain!! It didn't kick super hard, but what
a concussion!!! We were under a covered shooting area, though.
Jay
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
1) If the idea is to be humane, I would think that the hollowpoint bullet
would be PREFERABLE. The non-hollowpoint would put the bad guy out of commission
more slowly. Don't the "authorities" have it backwards???
2) I never have understood the idea of "law" during wartime. As Rush
Limbaugh (whether or not you like him) says, the purpose of war is to "kill
people and break things." A way to put it that sounds good to me is that,
if I'm in a battle, "I'm gonna kick ass, and I'll do it any way and every
way I can." I'm not saying I'm a great fighter, becuase I'm not. I'm just
saying that, when somebody's at war, who cares about a laws? The idea is
to kill, obliterate, and otherwise destroy, the enemy. I would want to
be packin' some big, bad, guns loaded with the biggest, baddest, loads
I could fit in the magazine!!!
Please enlighten me, someone.
Jay
From: Zac Bristow <KillRdNx@aol.com>
From: Don Bain
I will state that in a world in which combatants use cluster bombs and
land mines, laws prohibiting unecessary suffering seem (but not necessarily
are) stupid. Also, it seems that only major combatants, and then just the
West, abide by the niceties of the laws of war. "Liberation" movements
and outlaw regimes don't. Finally, I would note that a while back, if I
recall correctly, the military conducted tests at Aberdeen Proving Grounds
to see what the effect of various small arms (from .22 cal. to 20 mm) were
from a standpoint of damage and suffering. Not unsurprisingly, the military
couldn't find much in the way "humaneness." (When I remember where I saw
this, I will excerpt the document). It brings to mind another issue, why
is assassination illegal? Isn't killing Hitler before he invades Poland
(Sudentenland, Austria, Rheinland, etc.) better than having a World War.
In the Gulf War, there was a spec. ops. guy who had Hussein in his cross-hairs
(M24, I believe), but didn't shoot. Arguably, Hussein was a legitimate
military target. More abstractly stated, doesn't killing one man make more
sense and cause less suffering than killing 100,000 and damaging or destroying
a lot of property and personal possessions? By the way, there is an Army
legal opinion on this which I could post but it's pretty long.
Just some preliminary thoughts.
Don
Oh yeah, next to Remington, LIMBAUGH RULES!
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
Marius
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
Something I find interesting though, is your CCW. Even though we have
tighter gun-control than you, we don't need a CCW. If you have a handgun,
you can carry it on you - no sweat. Obviously places like banks don't want
you walking in there packing, so they provide lock-up facilities while
you're inside.
As far as Zim is concerned, I will find out. Yes, it is sort of going
backwards there from what we can figure out, but tourism is still their
mayor income, so I don't see a problem. I will try and find out, though,
and get back to you. If you do come - you'll LOVE it, Africa is beautiful
- nothing beats hearing a lion roar at night out in the bush, or the crazy
laughs of a hyena - did you see the animation movie "The Lion King"? Whoopi
Goldberg did the hyenas justice with her laugh.
Marius
From: MADDOG
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Marius: What's a 610mm barrel? Boy! I thought a 155mm Howitzer was a
big gun!!! 610mm, though! I hope you have a sling!!!
I think it's Vermont (one of the states in the North East corner of
our wonderful Republic) which has no CCW at all. Anybody can carry a gun
(I suppose you've got to be 18 or 21 or whatever, though).
Additionally, there are places in this country where you can (must?)
carry OPENLY. No concealment.
One last thing. We can carry guns into banks.
OK. One more thing. In this country, we shouldn't have to have permits
to carry at all. According to our Constitution, it's a right. In fact,
one of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, said it was our DUTY to
be, at all times, armed. Cool, huh!?
I don't know how much you know about the laws in our country and though
you might find these tidbits interesting.
Jay
From: Anonymous <outcast@philly.infi.net>
not much time to read now but added to my bookmarks.
From: Scott C. <Wrsthluv@aol.com>
In regards to your info about the Spec Ops guy that had Saddam Hussein
in his cross hairs. True story. The rest of the story is that he followed
orders to radio in such sightings before taking action. When he did, he
was ordered not to shoot because it was not politically expedient. Hardly
makes sense to me.
SC
From: shiva <gunner@bak2.lightspeed.net>
AMEN! 1971-1973 Southeast asian wargames, 73 confirmed Those were best
years from 71-86. From 1974 to 1986 was a nightmare for me. Fortunatly
I stayed alive and sane, and didnt kill anyone whom didnt need it. However
my 3 wives and 4 children went through hell. Busting caps is fun. Zapping
folks was fun. Living with yourself and your nightmares is a bitch. There
is no macho crap in killing. Its only a job, and must remain that way.
If you want to prove yourself, go climb a mountain, or run a marathon.
The only satisfaction in sniping is doing your job well, running a clean
mission, completing your mission objective fully, and getting you and your
help home. Period. Hitting a target at a gazillion yards is cool, but you
can do that in Montana in a praire dog colony. And you will sleep much
better than most of us who have been in the shit.
From: Tor Fleime <tor.fleime@aftenposten.no>
Norma makes ammo with molycoated bullets:
.308:
168gr.hpbt(Sierra), Vel=770 mps.
190gr.hpbt(Sierra), Vel=780 mps.
6.5X55:
130gr.hpbt(Norma VLD), Vel=800 mps.
130gr.hpbt(Norma VLD), Vel=850 mps.
6mm BR
107gr.hpbt(Berger or Sierra? VLD), Vel=2500 fps.
Norma claims 50% increased barrellife
From: Bob Gardner <Bgardner@p05.dasd.honeywell.com>
Thanks for the info on Norma. I'll go look for some. Interesting address,
tho. Where is '.NO'? Norway?
Anyone monitoring from Australia? Wondered what the latest is on the
attempted gun ban?
From: JIM ERICKSON <CODY@CDSNET.NET>
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
You mentioned getting 3" groups @ 200 yards with the PMC in .50 BMG.
Well, the .50 cal. bullet doesen't even stabilize until it gets out several
hundred yards past that!! Your groups very well might tighten up (relatively
speaking) if you shot for groups at 500, 600, 700, or 1000 yards. You get
the idea. I'm not saying PMC's .50 cal. ammo is great. I'm just saying
your test was invalid.
Jay
From: JIM ERICKSON <CODY@CDSNET.NET>
From: Roy Harrison <harrisro.mcmurdo@mcmurdo>
I think not allowing assasinations (such as Saddam) is due to professional
curtesy,or quid pro quo.The leaders get together(remember rules of war)
and decide to let the grunts take all the risks.
A 610 mm barrel is about 24 inches. Please forgive me for getting away
from the main subject of this page but has anyone heard if the big raid
on smuggled AK-47s were actually full auto weapons,or is this another raid
like the one on the warehouse of supposedly "illegal" ammo that was quietly
given back after it made all the headlines?
I agree with the idea of a long range .22 rifle to practice your shooting
skills. I use a Rem 541THB and am building a full size Rem.Rolling Block
in .22 to practice Black Powder Cartridge silhouette shooting.
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
To Jay: As you say, the 155mm Howitzer is a big gun - I'd hate to try
and shoulder arms with a 17 ( metric ) tonne self-propelled G5 155mm Gun/Howitzer
like we used in the army. I shot it though, one hell of a kick, especially
shooting base-bleed HE up to distances of around 46km.
I was actually speaking of the length of the barrel, but of course you
knew that - I'd hate to see a 30-06 in 610mm calibre.
Another thing - no, all I know about your laws is basically what one
sees on the TV - news, shows and the like.
A slight correction on my last posting though - semi-autos are SLIGHTLY
mnore easily obtainable , but you better have a real good excuse for wanting
one.
Another question to all of you reloaders - I see a lot of you are seriously
looking for Federal brass. Why is that? Is it merely a question of lasting
longer, or does the brass itself play a role in the accuracy? I'm still
a baby in this sport.
Marius
From: Eric Sharrock <Cnay15a@prodigy.com>
From: John R. Ferguson <JFergu8740>
From: John R. Ferguson <JFergu8740>
From: MADDOG
From: Greg <gxk115@email.psu.edu>
From: Don Bain
Department of the Army Pamphlet 27-50-174
*4 TEACHING THE LAW OF WAR
W. Hays PARKS [FNa] Chief, International Law Branch, International Affairs
Division, OTJAG
Opinions and conclusions in articles published in The Army Lawyer are
solely those of the authors. They do not necessarily reflect the views
of The Judge Advocate General, the Department of the Army, or any other
government agency.
Ethics and morality have been in the news of late, [FN1] and it is difficult
to resist the temptation to discuss some of the current issues and their
potential application to the military. Similarly, as a lawyer, there are
any number of topics I would like to explore with you--such as defining
the moral and legal concept of proportionality--that must await another
time and place. The opportunity to participate in this important conference
was afforded me by the following paragraph in this year's Call for Papers:
One of our members has expressed concern about a recently published view
that little or no instruction is provided in any of the services on the
law of war. . . . If any of our members is able to provide an empirically-based
paper on the present state of teaching the law of war, that would be an
important contribution. Given that the armed forces of the United States
enjoy an international reputation for having one of the best law of war
programs; that military officers from other nations annually examine the
U.S. military law of war program with a hope for replicating it within
their armed forces; and that U.S. military personnel traditionally exercise
leadership at international conferences on law of war training because
of their considerable experience, I must express concern regarding the
critic's sources, knowledge of the program as it exists today, and his
possible motives. The facts recently reported to the International Committee
of the Red Cross (ICRC) are clearly to the contrary. [FN2] In elaborating
on the report to the ICRC, I intend to address the traditional who, what,
where, when, why, and how of law of war training in the United States military,
as it directly pertains to the toplic selected for JSCOPE IX. My emphasis
on the law of war programs of the Army and Marine Corps is not intended
to slight the excellent programs of the Navy and Air Force, but rather
to focus on those programs with which I have the greatest experience. The
law of war [FN3] as we know it today probably had its origins in the post-World
War II trials of Germany and Japanese war criminals. While substantial
elements of the modern law of war existed prior to World War II, the massive
suffering of total war provided the impetus for clarification and codification
of the law. The war crimes trials at Nuremberg, Tokyo, and other sites
established clearly the individual criminal responsibility of military
men who violate the law of war. The four 1949 Geneva Conventions for the
Protection of War Victims [FN4] expanded the codified law of war beyond
protection just for wounded and captured soldiers to military personnel
wounded or shipwrecked at sea, and to certain segments of the civilian
population. Ethics, morality, and the law often are described as strange
bedfellows, perhaps incongruous if not contradictory; some also suggest
that 'law of war' is a contradiction in terms. I disagree with both propositions.
Nuremberg was based on ethical standards transposed to positive legal norms;
the tribunals frequently used 'moral,' 'ethical,' and 'legal' interchangeably,
although there are distinctions. The law of war is the vehicle by which
nations have taken ethical concepts and applied them in concrete terms
in the most demanding environment--mortal combat. Much of the law of war
is based on the Just War tradition. Some parts remain elusive of definition
or codification, while other parts have been expressly rejected. Thus there
remains no agreed international definition for the concept of proportionality,
while the four 1949 Geneva Conventions require application of their terms
regardless of the justness of one's cause. [FN5] The law of war reflects
an attempt by nations to establish certain minimum standards of conduct
by parties to armed *5 conflict that will ameliorate the suffering of the
innocent. As with all law, it is highly dependent on good faith by all
concerned; at its best, it will not prevent all suffering. As Clausewitz
warned, there is no way that war can be made 'nice.' [FN6] We have learned
at considerable expense that when a nation endeavors to make war 'nice,'
or accepts limitations on the use of force beyond those required by law
of war treaties, it does so at its peril. A less-moral nation will take
advantage of its opponent's constraint, often to the detriment of the civilian
population in the battle zone (as well as the military of the nation fighting
with restraint). We were made painfully aware of this in the Vietnam War.
[FN7] At the same time, failure to have a viable law of war program can
be seen as a direct cause of incidents such as the My Lai massacre. [FN8]
After the Vietnam War, the U.S. military revised its law of war program.
A Department of Defense (DOD) directive was promulgated, which provides
that each individual will receive law of war training 'commensurate with
his or her duties and responsibilities.' [FN9] This program is based on
our treaty obligations [FN10] and the constitutional premise that these
treaties are part of the law of the land. [FN11] Each member of the United
States military takes an oath upon entering the armed forces to discharge
his or her duties in accordance with the laws of the United States, including
the law of war. But no program can survive simply because 'it's the law,'
and the Vietnam-era law of war programs suffered demonstrably because they
endeavored to stand solely on the basis that certain conduct was expected
on the battlefield 'because the law says so.' In 1968, the Chief of Staff
of the Army wrote the Commander, Military Assistance Command, Vietnam (MACV),
noting his displeasure regarding recurring reports of mistreatment of prisoners
of war. In response, the deputy commander. MACV, suggested that one reason
was that judge advocate- taught instruction in the law of war 'has tended
to be abstract and academic, rather than concrete and practical.' [FN12]
Today's law of war programs emphasize the military and political reasons
for respect for the law of war. Four basic assumptions form the foundation
for the U.S. military program: discipline in combat is essential; violations
of the law of war detract from a commander's accomplishment of his mission;
violations of the law of war frequently lead to a loss of public support
(domestic and international) for the war effort; and violations of the
law of war may arouse an enemy to greater resistance, leading to increased
friendly casualties. Similarly, the law of war is viewed as one of a number
of control measures used by the battlefield commander to assist him in
the efficient employment of his forces. [FN13] In comparing the definition
of the law of war concept of military necessity, which authorizes 'such
destruction, and only such destruction, as is necessary, relevant, and
proportionate to the prompt realization of legitimate military *6 objectives,'
[FN14] to a definition of the principle of war of economy of force, [FN15]
their common goal is clear: the efficient, discriminate use of force against
legitimate targets. Each also coincides with the less-specific concepts
of Just War and/or contemporary military ethics. Each military service
has developed its law of war training program in accordance with its mission,
and the realities of training time, of which there is never enough for
the myriad demands upon a unit's or individual's time. The previously-stated
DOD standard ('commensurate with . . . duties and responsibilities') is
one of relevancy. A sailor 'shoveling steam' in the engine room of a ship
needs to know far less of the law of war than a rifleman of equivalent
grade in the Army or Marine Corps; that rifleman needs to know far less
than his battalion commander; a division or wing commander can look to
his special staff (including his staff judge advocate) for expertise on
law of war matters. In the competition for training time, law of war training
is not keyed to nice to know, but to need to know in order to meet the
DOD standard. The Marine Corps Law of War Program establishes three levels
of training. The Army also recognizes these and gears training to them.
Level A. The minimum level of understanding of the law of war required
of all Marines and soldiers to be received principally during accession
training. Level B. The levels of understanding necessary for personnel
whose military specialty or assignment involves tactical planning or direct
confrontation with the enemy, commensurate with their grade and responsibility.
Level C. The level of understanding necessary for judge advocates whose
military assignment entails advisory responsibility to tactical commands.
At the lowest level, every individual entering the Marine Corps and the
Army (enlisted and officer) receives instruction on the law of war. The
Marine Corps' instruction centers on nine basic principles. [FN16] There
is a draft program moving towards adoption of these principles in the Army
as well. The principles are: 1. Fight only enemy combatants. 2. Do not
harm enemy soldiers who surrender. Disarm them and turn them over to your
superior. 3. Do not kill or torture prisoners. 4. Collect and care for
the wounded, whether friend or foe. 5. Do not attack medical personnel,
facilities, or equipment. 6. Destroy no more than the mission requires.
7. Treat all civilians humanely. 8. Do not steal. Respect private property
and possessions. 9. Do your best to prevent violation of the law of war.
Report all violations of the law of war to your superior. There are sound
military reasons behind each of these principles in addition to any moral
or legal obligation and, like it or not, there is greater likelihood for
respect for these principles if they are explained in military terms rather
than solely from a moral or legal standpoint. For example, in instructing
the individual soldier of Marine not to kill or torture prisoners of war,
recognition of their intelligence potential carries greater weight than
moral or legal values, which often are viewed as abstract and of questionable
relevancy in the heat of battle. (It must be emphasized that tactical rationale
is being used to support legal principles; our service men and women are
taught that these principles are absolute and may not be waived when convenient.)
Similarly, a lack of humane treatment may induce an enemy to fight to the
death rather than surrender, thereby leading to increased friendly casualties.
The instruction is candid, however, in admitting that humane treatment
of enemy prisoners of war will not guarantee equal treatment for our captured
servicemen, as we learned in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam; but it is
emphasized that inhumane treatment will most assuredly lead to equivalent
actions by the enemy. [FN17] Likewise, the admonition to 'treat all civilians
humanely' recognizes the need for a disciplined military force on the battlefield;
a crime against a civilian on the battlefield is as much (and perhaps more)
a detriment to unit discipline and integrity as one committed in Fayetteville,
North Carolina, or Oceanside, California, by a member of the military.
Mistreatment can alienate the civilian population. [FN18] Abuses have a
negative effect on public opinion, as evidenced by *7 public reaction to
the My Lai massacre. [FN19] But the instruction is given a common sense
perspective in that it is acknowledged that civilians assume a certain
degree of risk if they remain on the battlefield, or in proximity to legitimate
military targets, or participate in activities that directly support the
war effort of the enemy. To reach personnel at intermediate levels, the
Army and Marine Corps provide law of war instruction at noncommissioned
office advanced courses, officer advanced courses, and senior staff colleges.
Special courses are also offered. The Marine Corps Law of War Course is
a five-day course taught four to five times annually worldwide to company
and field grade officers; the 'mix' sought in each course is one-third
each of judge advocates, ground officers (primarily combat arms), and aviators
(fixed and rotarywing). Its emphasis is on the practical rather than theoretical.
Three days are spent on 'Geneva' law relating to the protection of war
victims, including prosecution of violations thereof; one day is devoted
to 'Hague' law, relating to means and methods of warfare; and the final
day addresses the law affecting peacetime military operations (including
jus ad bellum) and the law relating to low-intensity conflict, including
counterterrorism. In addition to Marine attendees, there have been students
from the other U.S. services, Canada, the American National Red Cross,
the League of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, and the International
Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). A member of the ICRC addresses each
class on the role of the ICRC in peactime and armed conflict. The Marine
Corps Law of War Course has been very successful. The key to its success
lies in the knowledge of its instructors--all reservists, many with command
experience in combat--of the law of war and the business of the client;
the subject cannot be taught in the abstract. There are several manifestations
of the success of the course. It comes first through applications to attend,
which vastly exceed available billets. Student reaction also is significant.
On the first day, even though they have applied to take the course, the
members of the class generally are reserved as the students get to know
one another and are exposed to the law of war in greater depth than previously.
On the second and third days, lectures are interspersed with seminars in
which students must address contemporary, 'real world' problems; the officers
warm to the subject, becoming more animated in their discussion and support
for the law of war as wholly consistent with their doctrine, tactics, experience,
common sense, and individual moral underpinnings. By the end of the course
(despite an examination), they are avid enthusiasts for the law of war.
One regimental commander described the course as the 'best taught and most
important course' he had attended in his entire career--stark contrast
to the criticism of law of war training reported earlier, and to the dilemma
posed by the topic for JSCOPE IX. A final manifestation of success was
the rcent award of a Meritorious Unit Commendation by the Secretary of
the Navy to the Marine Corps Reserve unit responsible for conduct of the
course. [FN20] Other courses are offered by the other services. For example,
while continuing to utilize the Marine Corps Law of War Course, the Navy
offered its first law of war course at the Naval Justice School in Newport,
Rhode Island, in 1985. The Army is also extensively involved in law of
war training and has provided comprehensive instruction in this area for
over twelve years. The Judge Advocate General's School, U.S. Army, in Charlottesville,
Virginia, offers three law of war workshops annually. Also, selected members
of the U.S. military annually attend the twelve-day law of war course taught
by the International Institute of Humanitarian Law in San Remo, Italy.
At a higher level, The Judge Advocate General of the Army has sponsored
an annual Military Operations and Law Symposium since 1982, the fifth of
which was conducted at Headquarters, U.S. Central Command, in November,
1986. This symposium is attended by active duty personnel by invitation
only. Invitees are senior operations planners for major U.S. commands worldwide
and their staff judge advocates. [FN21] There also is limited allied participation.
Representatives from the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand
attended the 1984 symposium, for example, and spent the week preceding
the symposium discussing common law of war issues. The symposium brings
together key personnel to discuss contemporary operational-legal issues
in a classified environment. Previous topics have included rules of engagement,
navigation and overflight rights, peacekeeping operations, the 1981 Gulf
of Sidra incident, the 1982 Falklands War (a British presentation), the
1983 Grenada rescue operation, and operations against Libya in 1986. In
an effort to keep the law abreast of technology, subjects such as beyond-visual-range
targeting and over-the-horizon *8 targeting--both tied to the moral/legal
concept of discrimination of combatants from noncombatants-- also have
been addressed. Each symposium has been an unqualified success. Other blocks
of instruction are tailored to the audience. A class on 'Medical Personnel
and the Law of War' is given at the Uniformed Services University for the
Health Sciences (Bethesda), to prospective commanding officers of Naval
medical facilities (also at Bethesda), and in the U.S. Army Academy of
the Health Sciences Advanced Combat Casualty Care Course (Fort Sam Houston).
Targeting and the law of war is taught at the Air Command and Staff College
(Maxwell Air Force Base) and the Air Force Target Intelligence Course (Lowry
Air Force Base). 'The Law Affecting Special Operations' is a classified
presentation given special operations personnel who attend the Joint Special
Operations Planning Workshop at the U.S. Air. Force Special Operations
School (Hurlburt Field). Less specialized but tailored blocks are offered
at other service schools, such as the Army War College, Armed Forces Staff
College, and the U.S. Navy Chaplain's School. This list is not all-inclusive,
but merely representative of the wide variety of courses in which the law
of war is discussed, studied, and taught. Overall, the amount of law of
war instruction offered within the U.S. military is at least double that
of any other nation. One reason for the breadth and depth of U.S. law of
war instruction is that we are a nation dedicated to the rule of law. Another
is to make the future commander aware of the complexities of today's law
while advising him of his responsibilities under that law. Recognizing
the importance of compliance with the law of war in the conduct of U.S.
military operations, the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) in 1979 promulgated
a requirement that all operations plans, contingency plans, and rules of
engagement undergo a legal review as part of the JCS operational review
process. That directive was expanded and repromulgated in 1983. Its pertinent
parts provide: Conduct of Operations. Legal advisors should be immediately
available to provide advice concerning law of war compliance during joint
and combined operations. Such advice on law of war compliance shall be
provided in the context of the broader relationships of international and
U.S. and allied domestic law to military operations and, among other matters,
shall address not only legal restraints upon operations but also legal
rights to employ force. Review of Joint Documents. All plans, rules of
engagement, policies and directives shall be consistent with the DOD Law
of War Program, domestic and international law, and shall include, as necessary,
provisions for (1) the conduct of military operations and exercises in
accordance with laws affecting such operations, including the law of war,
and (2) the reporting and investigation of alleged law of war violations,
whether committed by or against U.S. or allied military or civilians or
their property. Such joint documents should be reviewed by the joint command
legal advisor at each stage of preparation. [FN22] The 'proof of the pudding,'
however, does not rest solely on formal instruction and review of plans.
Because of the competition for training time, as well as the need for realistic,
hands-on training, an increased number of law of war problems are being
built into field (and fleet) exercises at all levels. For example, the
greatest reinforcement for classroom instruction on the handling of a prisoner
of war has proved to be actual handling and processing of an 'enemy' prisoner
of war from the point of capture to turnover to appropriate authority.
Other reinforcement measures have been instituted. The Judge Advocate General
of the Army includes law of war issues as part of the special interest
items for Article 6, UCMJ, [FN23] inspections; the Air Force includes law
of war questions in Operational Readiness Inspections; while the Center
for Naval War Gaming at the Naval War College routinely incorporates law
of war issues into its war games. These approaches have proved far more
effective than forcing troops into a classroom to watch the same outdated
movie, as previously was the case, while reaching all levels of command.
This approach to law of war training paid dividends during the planning
of last year's operations against Libya, both in the early freedom-of-
navigation exercises and the subsequent airstrikes against terrorist-related
targets. Law of war experts at the U.S. European Command, service, and
JCS level assisted mission planners with promulgation of rules of engagement,
selection of targets, and anticipation and consideration of other possible
law of war issues. A close, working relationship was one of the many factors
that led to successful conclusion of each mission. [FN24]
From: Leg. 170 2XX <Sorry non.>
France is probably the country that takes sniping most seriously, in
every rifle platoon there are 12 trained sharpshooters! In 2. REP there
is also a company (4. cie) of snipers/demolition specialist, and a commando
platoon of NCO`s, all sniper trained. This is not particular for the legion,
the French hostage-rescue unit GIGN, are all trained snipers, and every
man (in GIGN) are issued a personal sniper rifle.
The French sniper rifle is the FRF2, 7,62 mm. it is an improved FRF1,
7,5 mm, a rifle build on the MAS mod. 1936 receiver. The rifle is a good
one, light and accurate and I'm quite surprised that it is relatively unknown
outside of France. The barrel is 65 cm long with four/R twists, has a long
flash suppressor and is free-floating with a "sleeve" for protection and
against mirage (ever tried firing in the desert? LOTS of mirage!). It has
a pistol grip, a nice trigger and a safety inside the trigger guard, ala
Garand ( but it moves to the left for firing). It has a detachable 10 round
magazine (four issued per rifle), and a large magazine release on the right-hand
side. The stock is easily adjusted for hight and length. The bolt is very
smooth and has a short length of travel. The receiver is probably one of
the strongest ever produced. The (all steel) scope mount attachés
to a milled out part of the left side and top of the receiver and are quick
detachable and return to zero (mine was taken on and of thousands of time,
and I never had any problem). The bipod is THE, most stable and practical
bipod in the World bare none, Harris and Parker Hale included! That was
the god part now for the bad one, the scope. For some mysteries reason
the scope used (at least in the legion) is the APX mod 804, and it sucks!
It is stable and stays zeroed but it has way to low magnification (3,85),
and uses the post reticle. It has a very good field of view and are good
in poor light, but not very good for real long range sniping (in the legion
the longest range we shoot at was 600 meter).
After I left in 89 the legion has started to use .50 cal. for "special
missions" and I know that it was used in Bosnia. Probably by the commando
platoon and/or a sniper platoon in 4. company. To be a sniper in the Foreign
legion you first have to enlist in the legion (obviously!) and sign a five-year
contract. Candidates for sniper courses are chosen for intelligence, fitness
and shooting abilities. The course last for five weeks, and are quite similar
to other (UK, US) sniper courses. The life in the legion is not as bad
as the press makes it. You learn a lot, travel a lot (to Africa), and are
more or less guaranteed to see combat. The pay is low in the beginning,
but improves after some years and especially in Africa. Since you don't
have a lot to spend the money on it is quite easy to save a bundle. Personally
I had 120 000 FF. ( $30 000) when I left, and I did not even try to save
before the last 18 months of service. That was the good news, the bad news
is that five years is a #&@~* long time and you can't leave France
for that period. You have to burn all bridges and leave it all behind,
your family, your friends, your PC, your dog, your guns, everything! Of
all foreigner who sign up only a few finish their five years, personally
I` estimate that at least 75% of all north Europeans and Americans deserts!
If someone is SERIOUSLY interested in joining let me know and I'll give
you some more facts.
Leg. 170 2XX (Hope I didn`t ¤%#& up the duty roster sending
this!)
From: Darkman <Darkman@vance.net>
From: Don Bain
Conclusion
The topic for JSCOPE IX is 'How Shall We Incorporate Ethics Instruction
in Military Education at All Levels?' I have endeavored to summarize current
law of war training efforts within the U.S. military to explain one approach
that is being taken in one aspect of ethics instruction. I do not wish
to suggest that current service programs are perfect. There are shortfalls,
and it is a continuous effort to identify and correct them. In the review
of U.S. operations in Grenada, it was discovered that one unit had conducted
no law of war training in the year preceding that rescue operation. That
no offenses occurred is testimony to the quality of the leadership within
the unit and to the consistency of the law of war with common sense and
military doctrine. But it reminded us that a program is dependent on individuals
and their interest in or support for the law of war. It has served as an
impetus for reviewing law of war training to establistencthods for ensuring
that law of war training is conducted within units. Other improvements
will be made where needed.
Law of war training has made great strides in all of the services over
the past decade. Whereas previously the subject was received with passive
resistance or in some cases outright skepticism, today it is greeted with
active interest *9 if not vigorous enthusiasum--provided it is presented
properly. I would like to close by offering some lessons learned from developing
these law of war programs.
1. Have faith in the student. The men and women of today's military
are intelligent, dedicated professionals, with a greater sense for what
is moral or legal than we give them credit for having. They do not believe
in Rambo any more than they believe in Jane Fonda. The historical emphasis
of this nation on the citizen-soldier means that our military is a cross-section
of our society with its Judeo-Christian heritage. More often than not,
we are preaching to the choir.
2. Be positive in your instruction. Past law of war instruction has
suffered many sins, not the least of which was a heavy dose of negativism;
instructors tended to emphasize that which was prohibited, and were reluctant
to acknowledge that anything was permitted. In fact, the law of war permits
more than it prohibits, and instruction today emphasizes rights as well
as responsibilities.
3. Ascertain what is relevant to your audience, and teach your trade
in the vocabulary of the audience. Several years ago, I attended a law
of war conference at the Naval War College; in those days the entire student
body of the college sat in the large auditorium for three days while law
of war experts engaged in a highly-esoteric 'lovefest' in which they praised
one another while talking about subjects of interest only to themselves
and of relevance to no one. One particular scholar read a paper on the
various ways in which you classify an individual captured in battle a prisoner
of war that was totally irrelevant to the more than 600 officers in the
audience, and in legalistic terms that few understood (including the other
professors). He did serious damage to the credibility to the law of war.
Several students observed that the professor's presentation confirmed their
suspicions that the law of war was totally irrelevant to the modern battlefield.
Like ethics, the law of war can be a very esoteric subject. But it also
involves common sense, and instruction offered in terms of the student's
work and in the vocabulary of his profession will go far towards convincing
him or her of the importance of our subjects to his or her work.
4. Pose the right questions. One of the most controversial law of war
scenarios with which to deal concerns of fourman reconnaissance team being
pursued by enemy forces deep in hostile territory that stumbles upon an
enemy soldier clearly within minutes of death from a fatal wound. If the
team leaves the soldier alone, he may be found by its pursuers before he
dies, endangering their survival. If the soldiers stay with the soldier
until he dies from his wound, they probably will be detected. Yet to hasten
his inevitable death through another violent act would constitute a violation
of the law of war.
The odds against this situation occurring to any particular individual
are greater than the national debt. Yet some law of war instructors insist
on self- destruction by starting with this scenario, thereby losing the
students for the balance of their presentation.
My point is that there are hypotheticals with answers, and others that
can be debated until the cows come home without reaching an acceptable
answer. Gaining credibility for your subject is achieved by going from
easy to difficult though, of course, you must be prepared to address the
tough questions when they are raised. Similarly, while we should encourage
reasoning, thinking, and questioning, we should not select an approach
that does little more than cast doubt. Many students enter a classroom
environment with a suspicion that many of the things they might be asked
to do are illegal or immoral--but knowing that they will do them anyway.
The myths regarding prohibited acts abound in the realm of the law of war.
By correcting those myths and reassuring students that their doctrine and
tactics are in accordance with the law of war, and explaining to theming
consistency of the law of war with these things, the students gain confidence
in what they are doing--and understand better the need for the prohibitions
that do exist.
5. Understand history. Neither ethics nor the law of war can be taught
in a vacuum. A keen sense of history is essential to teaching ethical or
legal concepts. Otherwise these concepts appear to stand in stark contrast
with what students believe in history. For example, frequently I am asked
to reconcile the law of war with the strategic air offensive against Germany
or, more specifically, the bombing of Dresden. There are rational political,
military, legal, and ethical reasons to support the decisions that led
to each, but these were identified only after a great deal of research.
An individual teaching either ethics or the law of war must have a natural
inquistiveness about history in order to place his or her topic in perspective.
[FN25]
6. Recognize the importance of your subject. The concerns of the American
people for morality and legality are regarded by the enemies of the United
States as a highly vulnerable center of gravity that must be exploited
at every opportunity. Our loss in Vietnam in large measure occurred through
the success of North Vietnam repeatedly casting all U.S. operations in
terms of their alleged illegality, or the immorality of the war in general.
The bombing campaigns over North Vietnam saw the greatest restrainst ever
offered by a warring nation to minimize collateral civilian casualties.
The North Vietnamese responded by alleging massive civilian casualties
while using their own civilian population to shield legitimate targets
from attack. In the Rolling Thunder campaign, the Johnson Administration
responded to the North Vietnamese charges by increasing the constraints
on U.S. forces or denying authorization to attack legitimate targets in
or adjacent to populated areas. The North Vietnamese were able to set the
terms of reference for the war, and our national leadership was incapable
of responding to or changing those terms of reference.
Today, opponents of U.S. assistance to the democratically-elected government
in El Salvador and to support for the democratic resistance in Nicaragua
couch their opposition in terms of the morality or legality of U.S. efforts.
Following the air strikes in Libya last year, Libyan officials attempted
a similar disinformation effort, asserting massive civilian casualties
while denying damage to the terrorist-related targets that were the object
of attack. Recently it was disclosed that the alleged death of Moammer
Gadhafi's stepdaughter in the air strike by U.S. Air Force F-111F *10 aircraft
on Aziziyah Barracks was a Libyan fabrication. Its purpose was clear: to
influence public opinion in the United States and the western world to
forestall further attacks.
Ethics and the law are not always synonymous, but they are compatible
in many respects. Not the least of these is their value as a foreign policy
tool. Each is extremely important in today's world in assuring the American
people of the correctness of a strategic or tactical decision, and leaders
at all levels ignore this fact at their peril. We have taken a proactive
approach to teaching the law of war by emphasizing this point. The same
can be done in teaching other fields of ethics.
From: Don Bain
Craig: Speaking of IMI, I saw in the May 20, 1996 issue of SGN (Shotgun
News) and ad for IMI Match .50 BMG, $290 for 100 rds. This is new, recently
loaded ammo (not built up from components of previously loaded rounds)
with 647 gr. FMJ match bullets.
Scott: I think I may have surpassed your record on the number of words
posted in a day. Man, how embarrassing. . .
Don
From: MADDOG
From: Sgt. Gimmellie <NONE>
From: RYAN CROZIER <LCHS@CCINET.AB.CA>
From: N/A at this time <ieatvet@aol.com>
thanks for the time and space good shooting .
From: M. Marlow <mmarlow@atlcom.net>
From: Don Bain
Don
From: Ray Foley <rfoley@conc.tdsnet.com>
From: MADDOG
From: Jim Reid <reidjb@cadvision.com>
I'll keep in touch.
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Anybody know anything about the U.S. Optics scopes?? _Sounds_ impressive.
I'm wondering how a variable power scope would hold up on a .50 BMG or
larger caliber gun (in the field). The weight and size are two drawbacks
I see (my frame of reference is a Leupold Mark IV).
Don: Thanks for the stuff on laws of war. Quite informative (especially
the nine rules). I must admit, however, that I did start getting quite
bored about 2/3 of the way through the first posting.
Sometime this summer, anyone in Washington state with a Concealed Pistol
Permit (not CCW) should be able to buy a handgun and walk out the door
with it immediately. Apparently, Washington state is one of the model states
for concealed carry laws. Although I'm glad to live here, I think we won't
have arrived until CCWs are non-existent.
Jay
From: bob crowe <bcrowe@hemi.com>
From: Scott <powers@voicenet.com>
Note on Federal Brass: Get it, Us it, Swear by it! The only negative
is its relative hardness compared to other companies. Trimming with a manual
trimmer is slightly harder them some competitors stuff but its consistency
beats all...so far. My 7.62x51 (.308) reloads perform exceedingly well
with Fed brass. M852 brass performs as well but is VERY tough to come by.
Assassination silliness: While I am not a proponent of any government
going hog wild with eliminating forign dignitaries, sometime I find myself
simply stumped by our reluctence to remove the opposition when TRUELY justified.
It would appear that our Government finds it far more acceptable to destroy
the lives of countless civilians then risk censure from the world governments.
Saddam is a perfect example. While I personally may get pissed that certain
middle eastern folk call my nation the Great Satin, all the while prospering
from our current generocity, hospitality, acceptence of their immigrents,
and forign aid, I wish them no harm as they are products of thier history,
environment, and educational systems. What blows my mind is that given
the opportunity to take out Saddam and thereby theoretically save his nation
and people a return ticket to the stone age, we choked in the name of political
expedience! Yes the coalition would probably have been shaken - until they
needed some more forign aid, or weapons, or aircraft or technology. Its
a practical world out there.
Our government has a very valid fear of militant radicals (e.g. Hezbulla)
bringing terrorsim to this nation in retaliation for percieved wrongs.
But frankly those groups have been doing their damndest to strike at us
anyway. So why choke with Saddam? What is truely bizzare is that the three
letter agency in Langly Va. was quite active in the elimination bizz for
a lot of questionable reasons back in the 50-60's. So now occasionally
when the need arises we balk, due I suppose to a collective guilt from
that comminuty (or presidential order...). Yet firebombing Dresden, Hamburg,
Tokio and countless other cities was considered proper for the times. Destroying
the lives of both North and South Vietnamese not to mention 55000 American
boys was just hunky dory to the political idiots of the day. I never want
to see assasination become the force for pollitical change again but I
am bloody sick of the young men of this nation, and others for that matter,
being considered expendable commodities to the folks on the Hill. If one
well placed shot can save the lives of thousands, is it worth it? I can't
answer that using concrete logic, but one wonders...
From: Lanc MacKay <Lanc@ixnetcom.com>
From: Steen Skov <Skivehs@.dk>
From: Bob Gardner <bgardner@p05.dasd.honeywell.com>
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
I must say, you didn't do too bad on the posting there.
Do you not have an email adress? I would like to get some more info
on your possible Zim trip in order to get the correct info.
To Sgt Gimmelie - I can understand your enthusiasm about the RAUFOSS
ammo, but just KILLING game like that - just for fun?
Marius
From: Marius Ferreira <mferreira@pixie.co.za>
I have the option between a CHRONY BETA chronograph, and a PROCHRONO
PLUS. The CHRONY is about R150 more expensive - any ideas as to which of
the two is the best?
Marius
From: Don Bain
As for my e-mail address. . . Yes, I have one, but for various reasons
(mostly related to where I work and who I work for - nothing sinister,
just discretion and consideration for the people and companies for whom
I work) I do not post it publicly. I will contact you directly, however.
I kind of doubt we'll go to Zim this year, but I am interested in going.
Jay: In thinking about your friend's comment, I guess now that I think
about it, he's right.
From: Garry <garryrn@Rt66.com>
From: Garry <garryrn@Rt66.com>
From: Garry <garryrn@Rt66.com>
From: Don Bain
Don
From: Lanc <Lanc@ixnetcom.com>
From: Jay Williams <williamsjp@psns.navy.mil>
Jay
From: Robert Gates
From: BILL ROGERS <brogers@elkhart.com>
From: Christer <ec95chst@vdg.malung.se>
From: WHITE FEATHER
Date: 10. May 96 1:58
To Cory: Thanks, I'll pick up a copy!
Date: 10. May 96 9:33
I'm a new high power shooter just looking to as much information as
posible. There is nothing like experance to learn from.
Date: 10. May 96 11:59
To Russell E. Taylor: Well Said. You have a gift with words that far
excceds my own.
Date: 10. May 96 12:21
To Scott Powers: I have been to Washington, D.C., a number of times...
and I always make time to visit "the wall" and pay my respects. However,
I'll never forget my first visit -- and the impression that visit left
on me. The silence, the respect... the reverence that is rendered by each
of the visitors... is overwhelming. That each name on the wall is the name
of a dead serviceman or servicewoman is mind-boggling. I always walk through
Arlington Cemetary, and stop by the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier... I'm
very big on paying my respects to those who have gone before me, especially
to those who have gone in harm's way.
Date: 10. May 96 13:08
Hear it is as promised following my last rantings.
Date: 10. May 96 13:11
To Russell, i think it was about time that someone let theese kids
know what it is alll about after the war for the snipper . I was a marine
for 5 yrs and served two tours in nam after that 26 years on the boston
fire dept in one of the bussiest co. about 2200 runs of theese over 1000
were house fires . what i am trying to say is with what ive done i am no
coward but i would not have the balls to be a snipper in the field by myself
all the time might sound like a lot of fun but its not beleave me. i have
never comented on the subject before and hope it does not come across wrong
. thanks also Russell u mention about a praire dog shoot with a 22-250
useing vv powder what type and what load just breaking in a sav 112 var.
bbl again thanks .
Date: 10. May 96 16:18
This is to Cory: I'm interested in both the new Tasco scope and the
Springfield Armory 2d Gen Gov't. Can you give us more details on either
one? I visited the SA Web page, but didn't get much detail there. I'm especially
interested in the SA - what type of reticle does it have, and is it preset
ballistically for a particular .308 round? I am trying to find a dealer
in the Dallas area who may have one I can check out, but no luck as yet.
Any info/opinions you have will be appreciated.
Date: 10. May 96 17:01
Comment to government: CARLOS HATHCOCK DESERVES THE MEDAL OF HONOR!!!!
GIVE IT TO HIM!!!!
Date: 10. May 96 17:25
Excellent Page -- White Feather would be proud.
Date: 10. May 96 19:25
Anybody, I am in the process of completing a purchase for an expensive
heavy barrel sniper rifle from a custom rifle manufacture in 300 WinMag.
However, the manufacturer insists that the barrel length be 22". My limited
understanding was that 26" was preferable in 300 WinMag. However, the manufacturer
(whom I've got great respect for else I wouldn't be spending this kind
of money on their specialty product) insists that the shorter barrel is
indeed optimal and the extra 4" difference is wasted metal because the
220 grain bullet has reached its optimal velocity of approx. 2650 ft/sec
with constant acceleration in a total of 22". Therefore one doesn't need
any further metal sticking off the end of their barrel. Rather, the bullet
should be allowed to exit at that point. Has anyone ever given a 22" barrel
any consideration? If so, what are your thoughts about accuracy and impact
at distances? Regards, Philip
Date: 10. May 96 19:37
First time at this site, very interesting. Agree on Somalia comment
in email from Scott Powers below; was there, got my unit disbanded on political
correctness and media pressure.
Date: 10. May 96 21:45
To Anonymous: As I explained be
Date: 10. May 96 22:34
I'm a Marine. Need I say more of my interests?
Date: 10. May 96 23:07
I'm former USArmy (NCO, Chaparral) and longtime shooter presently engaged
in IPSC competition, and grad of Gunsite (11/91) with an interest in all
sorts of shooting, most especially practical (I say again, Practical!)
weapons of all sorts, and would be interested in your audience's comments
about rifles and optics that are accurate, durable, and AFFORDABLE! Am
seriously interested in new Armalite AR10 flattops, as well as the classic
bolt-action setups. Any observations or comments or test results would
be appreciated. Am far more interested in practical field accuracy than
in range-tech info, and intend to translate some of this into IPSC 3-gun
match use. Now using a semi-auto only M4 SOCOM 5.56mm flattop carbine clone
with Bushnell's little 1.75-4X brush scope with the ring-and-crosshairs
center reticle with duplex wires for GP use--don't knock it, with the stiffness
of the 16" barrel in heavy contour this rig will shoot MOA at 100 yards
even in my unsteady hands.....want to move up to 7.62 with the same concept
in mind, using more capable optics for greater range, and am thinking of
the AR10 standard flattop for the job. Look forward to anything your readers
might have to offer on the subject. DVC!
Date: 11. May 96 0:40
need more time to browse your info. Looks great and I've learned a
lot about accuracy/reloading.
Date: 11. May 96 7:33
To: Don Bain,
Date: 11. May 96 7:36
To Russ and Scott,
Date: 11. May 96 7:44
Here is a question for the teqnically minded out there. The Remington
700 ADL comes with a bedding block or bump near the tip of the barrel channel.
When the action is torqued into the bedding properly, this bump places
pressure on the barrel. When I replaced the factory wood with an HS-Precision
stock, the barrel was completey free floated. I noticed no negative change
in accuracy. I had assumed the pressure point was to make up for improper
bedding with the factory wood or to control barrel whip in a predictable
manner. Since the change, the inherent accuracy of the weapon has not gone
away. Nor has it improved noticably. Why the pressure point at all then?
Answers?
Date: 11. May 96 17:43
Wellcome aboard Charles Riggs. When you said "new to high power", did
you mean rifles in general or NRA high power competition? Whichever, may
through many rounds, you become a rifleman and not just another man with
a rifle!!!
Date: 11. May 96 18:09
Sorry Charles Riggs I had two notes written down, that message was
for Cal Rychwa,but I do have a question for you re: Premier Reticle. I
have an vari.X III 3.5x10 tactical that I was thinking of changing from
duplex to mildot. If P.R. does this will it void Leopolds warranty or will
Leopold perform this task themselves?I see a MK3 in the near future but
would still like to have this feature on a 10x. Gotta go, my iguana is
about to claw through the glass!!!
Date: 11. May 96 18:30
Oh GOD I screwed up again. I lied, I had 3 notes written down. that
note was for Jay Williams. I am an FNG at computers and the net, just hope
you guys can look at this and laugh.But Charles I do have a comment about
the ar-10 that I should not address right now in the event I screw up again.
You guys would really laugh if you knew how long it takes me to "hunt and
peck" this out. With much humility,Keith-FNG.
Date: 11. May 96 19:45
Regarding ArmaLite AR-10 rifles: I sell them. If you want the standard
(AR-10A4), the price I'm selling them for is $1350.00. I've shot them,
they're a dream, and a LOT more affordable than the SR-25 (sorry, Jay).
Date: 11. May 96 20:20
Hello from the great white north I was wondering if you guys could
help me out. we have a sniper match here in b.c. every july. 2 catagories
police 100-300 meters, military to 200-1000 mtrs. What would you recommend
as a zero range for 1000 meter shooting with a m-24 in 7.62nato? i'm using
handloads of 42gr. imr-4895,fed brass, fed match primers,sierra 168gr bthp
match rds.,2630 fps. from my chrono. Any information you could provide
would be greatly appreciated.
Date: 11. May 96 23:53
Hello everyone i'm a Marine sniper one o the few 8541's. I'm very active
in my proffesion i believe in what i do and so should everyone out there.
Taking the life is no game you have to be mentally and physically tough.
I have did much research and I try to gather as much information as possible.
The information my be fact or fiction. But you don't know until you try
it. I'm interested in hearing what people have to say but I don't have
access to this net that often i'll be returning state side in a month but
you will be able to find me here until then. If you want to get a good
grasp on Marine Corps sniping take a look at the DEATH ROM AFAR series
written by RET. COL Chandler. If you find it you will see that i am in
book 4. I have not read it or seen it for myself so i don't know what is
in this volume. It is waiting for me when i get home. I'll talk facts with
everyone later. Semper Fi The NOMAD!!!
Date: 12. May 96 0:27
Charles Riggs, I hope I dont screw up this time. A friend of mine recently
purchased an AR10 heavy barrel model which produced unsat groups 1.25"
@ 100 yds. He called Armalite and relayed the story. They told him to mail
it back and they would make it right! I have not talked to him in a while
so I do not know the outcome of it. But as Im sure you know they bought
Eagle Arms who had a good reputation for AR15,s which i just purchased
a golden eagle but have not had the chance to group it yet. Good luck with
your purchase Im sure you be happy with it.
Date: 12. May 96 0:41
Upon reading my last comment one might think "just some dope at the
bench that couldnt shoot to the rifles capability from the bench". A little
qualifications here, this guy has bought more barrels from Boots Obermier
than I have fingers! I will call him and give you an up date.
Date: 12. May 96 7:40
To: Philip Blair I do not know about the internal balistics of the
300 win mag., but that rifle manufacturer must. I cannot say anything about
the necessity of the 26" barrel. I do know that if the manufacturer is
correct, then the additional 4" of barrel could actually be a detriment
to accuracy. If, in fact a 22" barrel is long enough, you would be better
off with it than 26". The longer the bullet is in the barrel, the more
time there is for you to move the rifle away from the intended target.
That is why the smallbore shooters are all going to shorter barrels with
bloop tubes attached to the end of the barrel to extend the sight radius.
Just a thought.
Date: 12. May 96 9:53
Hi There!
Date: 12. May 96 10:15
To Russell , In a earlier letter you wrote about going on a praire
dog shoot in S.D. useing your 22-250 with vv powder ? what type 140 or
135 and what load do you use and what bullet . will be going myself in
two weeks and dont have time to work up a load . just bought a rem 700
hvy bbl will not get it till 3 or 4 days before we go . thanks for the
help if u can . SEALGAIRE PS. SEALGAIRE = SOLDIER OR HUNTER IN GAELIC
Date: 12. May 96 10:16
To Russell , In a earlier letter you wrote about going on a praire
dog shoot in S.D. useing your 22-250 with vv powder ? what type 140 or
135 and what load do you use and what bullet . will be going myself in
two weeks and dont have time to work up a load . just bought a rem 700
hvy bbl will not get it till 3 or 4 days before we go . thanks for the
help if u can . SEALGAIRE PS. SEALGAIRE = SOLDIER OR HUNTER IN GAELIC
Date: 12. May 96 13:54
Keith Lester: My understanding is that Leupold will change over the
scope reticle to mil-dot and will put target nobs on your Leupold scopr: MI think this work is under $100. I don't know if Leupold will put a bullet
drop compensator on your Vari-X III Tactical scope. Anybody know? Russ?
Date: 12. May 96 22:24
Hi, In my days of reading hunting/war publications on the www, this
is the best that I have ever read. Actually I'm only 15, but I consider
my self a master woods man. My friends and I like to play war games, and
they are amazed that I can sprint through the woods, with out being seen
or heard. They also find it amazing that I can sneak up on someone in fall,
when there are hard cruncy leaves on the ground. I think that you guys
should start a newsletter if you haven't all ready. You should also have
one on the www. gotta go.
Date: 12. May 96 22:25
Seth, I presume then that you fancy yourself as Dante, or maybe Virgil?
Perhaps I've overestimated you. You probably haven't graduated from comic
books.
Date: 12. May 96 23:07
KEITH LESTER: I saw your post asking about Premiere Reticle. I purchased
my MkIV from them and I love it dearly. IObviously, it had the reticle
installed by Premiere. I checked with Leupold, and Premiere is an approved
service3r of Leupold scopes. (That's gotta be hard rating to achieive!).
Anyway, I thought I'd ket you know something. Premiere uses the 3/4 Min
Mil-Dot reticle. They install all the reticles for the USMC, and many Fed
agencies. It is exactly like the ones in the Unertl scopes and the newer
Leupolds that are supposedly rteplacing the Unertl's these days. Leupold
also makes a MIL-DOT scope, but it uses a different dot spacing or something.
I'm not sure what the difference is, but I believe I read it in the "Death
From Afar" series. Published miltary range tables coincide with the Premiere
reticle and NOT the Leupold. I believe that the MIL-DOT specs given by
Maj Plaster in "The Ultimate Sniper" are based upon a Leupold MIL-DOT instead
of the Premiere. Soooooo, I would suggest buying only from Premiere. They
provide a lifetime warranty on all their scopes/custom work. I think they
will install a MIL-DOT reticle for around $100 or so. They will only work
on Leupold scopes, so don't bother asking about other brands (I asked them
myself). The guy to talk to is Chris Thomas. HE KNOWS HIS STUFF!!!! This
is the only business they do, so they've gotta be good. I don't know if
all this made sense orm not, but if you've got any questions about it or
would like to hear any of my experiences with my MkIV, drop me a line.
Hope I was some help,
Date: 13. May 96 13:000
Scott: Don't worry about your multiple postings. We've all done it
(and we all felt REALLY stupid, AND they stay, Dave doesn't seem to mind
so much as to remove them). And, as far as "anonymous" goes, you were VERY
gracious to him. Wouldn't bother me if he never posted here again.
Date: 13. May 96 14:08
I am not neccesarily a sniper wanna-be. I can't even enlist, because
I have a severe hearing loss since birth. So, the reason I shoot precision
reloads, is I am a full-time deer hunter, because i have nothing else going
for me. I am an Autocad draftsman at an engineering firm, so I have an
idea of what precision means. I do a little gunsmithing and custom work
on old or used rifles i buy from pawn shops at bargain prices and I use
them on hunts for very elusive choice deer. You can call me a deer sniper,
but I am very selective and picky about the way I hunt, and what I hunt.
I have no reason to kill people, because that is God's job. So, I am only
using advanced sniping techniques and stalking skills I have learned from
Native American friends to hunt these intelligent and highly revered Monarchs
of the Forest.
Date: 13. May 96 14:30
To All: Well, friends... I go on active duty this week. I will be "out
of the loop" from 15 May 96 to 3 Jun 96. Though I won't be much more than
an hour or so from where I live (this is the closest tour of duty I've
ever pulled in 14 years of service), it is highly unlikely that I will
be able to access either my E-mail or the Duty Roster during this timeframe.
If you have any questions for me, please hold them until after I return.
Date: 13. May 96 14:55
Dave, maybe it is a good idea to put in an editorial knife, and remove
the duplicate/triplicate/"hell who's counting" rantings of Russell and
Scott - don't these guys get taught to press only once? They seem to think
their mouse's keys are semi-auto triggers - have to press as fast as you
can to get as much in as possible. Scott, you trying to break some kind
of record? "Most postings before being banished into the absolute void
of nothingness of life without Sniper County?"
Date: 13. May 96 15:31
TO: Russell Taylor...You always have excellent info. I enjoy reading
your posts. Did you notice that the new 110FP's come already equiped with
a floated barrel and pillar bedding?? My new .300 Winmag 110fp has it...but
I paid to have it done last year on the .308 model. wwhhhaaaa!!! (sorry,
I'll stop whinning).
Date: 13. May 96 15:47
TO: Scott Powers...Excellent story!! Thanks for Sharing that with us.
If He tells any more, please relay them to us in all of their gory detail.
Date: 13. May 96 22:57
Jay Williams: Uuuuuuuhhhhhhh, I believe you're right about the different
dot size in the Mil-Dot reticle, there Jay. After reading what you had
written, it all came back to me. The difference between the Leupold Mil-Dot
and the Premiere reticle is the dot size. I haven't checked into it any
more than that, because I bought the Premiere and didn't give much thought
to it after that. I did check in "Death From Afar" two, and Chandler states
that the tables lsited in "The Ultimate Sniper" are incorrect for a regulation
3/4 Mil-Dot reticle. I must have missed your posts on this subject from
a while back. I've slept since then, and I'm beginning to think that I
have no static RAM in this old CPU of mine. Thanks for helping me not give
bogus info to people.
Date: 15. May 96 1:02
Great page. Glad to find a few friends that have been there. I have
just rotated back to the world and I need to know if there is life after
the Marine Corps. Semper Fi!!!!!
Date: 15. May 96 1:34
I am seventeen I would like to be a U.S.M.C. Sniper. I would like to
obtain some information about this profession. I have wanted to do this
since I was fifteen i don't know why. Maybe you could write back.
Date: 15. May 96 2:02
To Scott: I look forward to more stories about "Mark". Multi-postings
seem fairly common and I have done it myself.
Date: 15. May 96 2:32
I would like to buy a another rifle with a another caliber. I shoot
Crows with my 6.5*57 KRICO with 3-12*56 SWAROSKHY scope But in France we've
several rules about arms and what you can do with it. That's why i would
like to buy a caliber with "little sound". I ever hear 22-250. It is a
very great caliber but his sound is to much important. Is 6mm PPC got the
same problem ? You must know in France than you can shoot more 500m for
a good security. Thanks... Pierre DELORME 0__- [] / | | D.V.C. way of life
\ \/ /_
Date: 15. May 96 13:41
I've just completed four years in the 82nd Airborne as a scout and
sniper. I'm glad to see this page on the web and I look forward to using
it to keep up with whats going on in the sniping comunity.
Date: 15. May 96 14:35
This is a superb site. keep up the good work.
Date: 15. May 96 15:21
This page is long, I just loaded it again, first time after I posted
a snotty one on 13 May 1996. I got as far as 12 further entries, the last,
partial one, from M Gustafsson - how many more existed I will see later,
most probably only next week. I do not know what I must do to get this
Netscape not to stop before loading everything. But I digress: Russell/Scott,
I apologise for MY rantings, calling your multiple postings rantings. Russell,
you have plenty to share with all of us, please continue doing so. Scott,
I would like to see more accounts of events like that ( only one at a time
please ) - to hell with guys like ANONYMOUS. When most people talk rubbish
like that here, including myself, it is at least with full identity - but
well, on a splendid, albeit of unusual content, site like this, you will
get cranks. These are just to be swept away as one would a pesty fly.
Date: 15. May 96 15:35
Philip: I've read the same thing as Roy...26" barrel is best for a
.300 Win. Mag. I'm no expert reloader, but some guys on this page are.
They might have some personal experience regarding this question.
Date: 15. May 96 15:47
I posted one, and actually succeeded in loading the whole page again,
and saw that I lost the last sentence and about half of the previous one
of the last posting on my previous attempt - so I will put another posting:
Date: 15. May 96 16:26
I would like any info. on specific loads of the 300 winchester magnum.
Especially those for long range target acuracy. not necessarily special
purpose rounds.
Date: 15. May 96 16:52
I am the director of Savannah Lane Shooting Association in southern
West Virginia, near Lewisburg. We are offering: Tactical Rifle 27 JUL,
General Purpose Rifle 10 AUG and 19 NOV. Our Three Gun Match is 24 AUG.
We recently offered a Precision Rifle course and can offer the following:
The Springfield Gov't. optic performed well; the muzzle brake on the Accuracy
International AW is capable of causing a concussion, the rifle is fine,
but is too heavy and is difficult to use with a shoooting sling. Please
send Email with your regular mail address for course descriptions, schedules,
and any questions.
Date: 15. May 96 19:27
Jay Williams: Thanks for the kind words. I am and internet novice and
felt quite bad about messing up this page. Your comment was very appreciated.
As far as "anonymous" goes I don't get his logic. To call someone a hamburger
is dehumanizing in the extreme. All of the various types of "nomenclature"
applied to the "enemy" over the years whether based on attire or physical
appearence seams to stem from one thing; to make the job easier for the
troop in question. To kill is not a normal activity and every one called
to do it has to deal with it in their own way. I would never condemn Mr.
Hathcock for his choice of words when applied to a target, nor would I
blast "Mark". I was not in their shoes. Mark was forced into a situation
where, for political reasons, you couldn't even have a loaded weapon for
self protection. Then to add insult to injury he had to endure the cowardly
bombing of the marine barracks with great loss of life. That he resorted
to calling his targets something other then "poor misguided souls" is no
surprise. What surprises me is that someone reading this page wouldn't
inherently understand that.
Date: 15. May 96 19:30
Great sight! I am a 16-year old teen interested in going in sniper
warfare after school. Some one told me that my near sightiness would disqualify
me for such a group. I would be grateful for any information on this
Date: 15. May 96 21:47
To Scott : thanks for the info. I allready have tried the imr 4064
in both my 22-250 and 220 swift for the 22-250 w/ a nos bt bullet 43.2
gr with a vel. of 3583 and shoots in the low .300 range but someone i think
it was russ said he used vv powder . Was wondering what type annd what
load. but again thanks as i am a reloading fool when it comes to working
up a load . I buty just about every powder i can get my hands on , and
then to the range i go . and dont worry about dbl. posting i have and i
know a lot of us have done it before and will do it again .
Date: 15. May 96 23:16
to SEALGAIRE:The VV 5th edition reloading guide is not too useful but
shows: 35.3gr of n140 for the hornaday 60 sp.You may know that already.
They really don't give alot of data so I guess we are all pretty much true
epxerimenters with this powder! I don't use any of the projectiles listed,
which are few, so if anyone else is out there with the dope help us out!
Date: 16. May 96 14:42
It is with a heavy heart that I sit here tonight typing this. Today,
at the hands of a lunatic, armed with I know not yet what type of handgun,
I lost a dear friend. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This
lunatic came to their company looking for the guy who didn't give hime
the contract on a tender job, didn't find him, walked into my friend and
shot him. He also got four others, of whom I do not know anything about
their current situations. One of the four others might even be himself
as well - details are sketchy 700 km away. Hannes was also a hunter, although
not a marksman, just a yearly biltong hunter. One thing I know for sure,
he would not want this sort of thing to be ripped up in the press again
as all the more reason to have guns totally banned from society - he would
rather have it used to weed out scum like this, before they weed others
along with themselves.
Date: 16. May 96 15:07
hey, cool page, it is well done. Did u progam it yourself? if so nice
job! Semper Fi! -Komet
Date: 16. May 96 15:09
The story hit the papers last week that some genius of a bureaucrat
in the Massachusetts Department of Public Safety decided to catch up on
ten years of backed up filing by shipping all the records on license applications
and gun transfers to BATF in Washington for computerization!
Date: 16. May 96 15:16
To Scott Powers: thanks for the info, I think I forgot to mention I
currently have a 30-06, and will be shooting from Springbuck to Gemsbok
( Oryx ) with it. I will definately not take on a buffalo with a 168 gr
no-matter-what-bullet. If you go for headshot with that, you are definately
running a much higher than 50/50 chance to get flattened! Yes, there were
some of them doing crazy things like shooting elephant with .375's - here
you might be referring to John 'Pondoro' Taylor, who was a professional
ivory hunter. On the other hand, unless you can get a GOOD brain shot,
a .375 might really be a bit light. Here you really need something to knock
the elephant unconsious by just entering the head in the brain's vicinity,
like a .470 or something. One of the less fortunate ones was Torro do Vale,
who, although being an experienced elephant hunter, got trampled by a charging
elephant he tried to face with a .318 Westley Richards in his hands - bad
misjudgement.
Date: 16. May 96 16:33
Would appreciate seeing some comments from SR25 owners. Info on any
good/bad points, things to look for when inspecting one for purchase, factory
loads compatible w/the weapon, misc experiences etc.
Date: 16. May 96 19:57
Can you give some info on semi auto to full auto trigger conversion
details on rifles and trigger systems ie Australian Automatic Arms (AAA)
SAR .223.
Date: 16. May 96 23:45
My two cents' worth:
Date: 17. May 96 0:45
To: Designers- Great page, glad I found it. To: All posters EXCEPT
anonymous--great entries, tons and tons of useful and interesting info.
Keep it coming. To: Scott-I'm having the opposite of your problem: I've
tried to send stuff but it hasn't shown. Hope this eventually takes. To:
Marius-Peace.
Date: 17. May 96 8:05
To Marius: Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. Your friends
on this page share your grief. Keep the faith.
Date: 17. May 96 12:21
Don: Just a few thoughts I had while reading your posting. I'm not
a racist. I've had black friends in the past. I currently have Japanese,
Chinese, and Thai friends. However, I can't help but think that it must
be extrememly difficult for a soldier (never having been in the military,
I don't know) to avoid beginning to hate a people against which he is fighting.
Maybe Dave could comment on this as well.
Date: 17. May 96 15:48
To Don: You make some exellent points. First tho let me appologies
to all of you who expect good shooting oriented stuff on this page. I never
meant to cause this much distraction relating Mark,s experiance. But I
am glad in a way that I have. Too often outsiders assume hunters, military,
arms collectors and just plain gun folk have no conciense. All the responses
since my mega posting have proved to me beyond a doubt, and hopefully,
to the casual surfer, that as a group, riflemen/gun owners are responsible,
thinking human beings with respect for others. Our hobby/passion may not
meet the modern norm but as a whole I would like to think we represent
a cross section of society as normal as any other. The commentaries I read
here are seldom immature or biggoted. Don, your comments are well recieved
from this end. Mark felt no anomosity toward the local non-coms. I don't
think he would have refered to the populous the way he refered to his opponents/targets.
He may or may not harbor discriminating views, I really have no idea. But
none of us, regardless of race can claim piety here. We all, at times,
experience negative thought toward others. Be they different or just like
us. I do know M was not refering to his targets by race. There are plenty
of race oriented slurs for middle easterners but I never heard M use one.
I really do think his comment was a not so subconcious way to find humour
or relief for the situation he was in. That is a normal altho not always
nice way to handle things. I do appreciate your comments greatly.
Date: 17. May 96 17:43
This is not a tale about a "real" sniper. It is based on an experience
I had in Honduras in 1991. I would wager that many of you out there with
military experience could relate a similar tale! Our unit, the 1/115th
was on a joint training mission with the 15th Bn, a Honduran infantry battalion.
These people are literally grabbed from their homes and inducted into service.
That said, we were surprised to see the stamina and gusto they put into
everything they did. Small of stature but very determined. We spent the
first couple days acclimating to the 110+ degree weather and were continually
amazed by our compatriots ability totally ignore the heat. We were given
the typical warnings about the Shining Path, and were equipped with half
a combat load for any unsavory incidents. We were armed with 90 rounds
in a mag pouch, taped closed to avoid accidents and given a stern warning
to let the Locals take care of any live fire necessities unless it was
unavoidable. Yeah, Right...
Date: 17. May 96 19:39
Scott: I take it the bovine "saboteur" didn't leave any land "mines"
that had to be avoided. I assume as well he didn't survive the assault
and was cooked up for dinner?
Date: 17. May 96 21:19
I am a police officer in New Jersey and assigned to the tatical team
as team leader and sniper. Justed wanted to say this is a GRRREAT site.
Thanks.
Date: 18. May 96 8:59
To: Marius sorry to hear of your loss. a true friend , is sure hard
to find . but after reading some of the letters addressed to you i theink
you now have found a few more . god bless
Date: 18. May 96 22:11
Dave: I love your website. Lots of great info and you seem to know
your stuff. I've had some trouble with the Sniper Interactive game. Could
not access the options that I needed. "Not on Server" message given. Have
you any problems? Any suggestions? Keep up the good work. Semper Fi.
Date: 20. May 96 19:38
primary interest is 50 cal shooting.
Date: 20. May 96 19:54
Oops! Now I see how the page works...
Date: 20. May 96 20:33
Craig: Outstanding. I would suggest a subscription to Shotgun News
(they have a page on the net). A lot of dealers selling ammo generally,
and 50 cal. in particular, advertise there. Consider the quality of the
ammo you buy; concentricity of some rounds is very poor, as is their uniformity.
See Senich's book, "The Complete Book of U.S. Sniping" or Major Plaster's
"Ultimate Sniper" for discusions on quality problems with some 50 cal.
ammo. I do seem to recall that PMC makes some good quality, affordable
rounds. Jay Williams probably will have some information for you.
Date: 20. May 96 23:000
Does anyone have any official information on the use of liquid graphit!
I was informed that several shooters cleaned there barrels with it (leaving
small amounts in the barrel, and then fired a shot! Each time the shot
was fired the graphit (being a metal) ipregnated the inner surface of the
barrel! Filling in slight flaws, and improved accuracy! Does anyone have
anything to add to this info?
Date: 21. May 96 1:31
To Darkman: I don't know about graphite but moly-lube(molybdenum disulfide)
is being used to coat bullets.From everthing I have read about this treatment
it seems a very good way to go.It reduces friction,reduces pressure,increases
velocity,reduces copper fouling,helps in shot to shot consistency,increases
barrel life. I am very anxious to try this treatment myself.I understand
Moly-lube does absorb into the suface of the metal making it "slicker"
on a molecular level. I know of no down side to this other than being a
bit messy.I see where one company sells bullets treated with Moly and coated
with Carnuba wax so the Moly stays put.I too,would like to know if anyone
has tried this and if you coated the bullets yourself,or bought them this
way. I plan on putting some bullets in a rock tumbler with Moly powder
and see what happens.
Date: 21. May 96 4:44
To: Roy Harrison
Date: 21. May 96 11:37
Craig: Are you getting the bolt-gun or the Light Fifty? Sounds fun!
A good friend (and ex-USMC Scout/Sniper) has stock-piled a few hundred
rounds of the PMC (in .50 BMG). He is just finishing his gun (he just got
his scope on the gun) so he will be doing some more rigorous shooting than
he has before with the gun (it's kind of a waste of ammo with a cheap scope).
He bought the PMC stuff at a local retail store. I imagine there's a local
gun shop near you with decent prices. My friend also has some Hornady 750
grain match bullets. They are BEAUTIFUL!!! He hasn't done any reloading
for this gun yet, but I'll keep you posted on his results with the PMC
and other loads.
Date: 21. May 96 16:23
INFO. FOR ANYONE WANTING A BOLT .50B.M.G. STATE ARMS MAKES 4 MODLES
OF RIFLES. PRICES ARE GOOD AND WORKMANSHIP IS OUTSTANDING. E-MAIL FOR ADDRESS
. I BOUGHT THERE SWAT MODLE WITH 36" BULL BARREL WITH LAM. WOOD STOCK AND
THE LARGEST BIPOD IVE EVER SAW. COST $2,300 RETAIL ITS ALWAYS NICE TO CALL
UP THE DUTY ROSTER, JIM
Date: 21. May 96 18:16
Craig: FYI, Ken @ Combative Concepts has hit a 55 gallon drum at 1500
meters with a Barrett bolt gun. Pretty cool!
Date: 21. May 96 21:45
Cool page. I was wondering if we could get more sniper stuff on here.
I am a civilian who loves the art of sniping, however, I personally am
not that good.
Date: 21. May 96 21:58
Cool page. I was wondering if we could get more sniper stuff on here.
I am a civilian who loves the art of sniping, however, I personally am
not that good. I just scorled down this page, and I too am thinking about
becoming a marine sniper and I appreciate all the info all of you experienced
snipers gave. The good and the bad. One day I'll be one hell of a sniper.
"ONE SHOT, ONE KILL".
Date: 21. May 96 22:26
As I write this, CBS is running "Ruby Ridge," which does for the massacre
there what "Blood Sport" did for Whitewater - it trivializes the scandal,
leaves out the important crimes, and ultimately, and makes the criminals
seem not so bad. Furthermore, the protrayal of weapons and their handling
by the FBI was sloppy. The shooters are given their ROE (shoot any male
with a gun) and Horiuchi has his M24 lying on the briefing table before
him, pointing at the speaker!?! (By the way, I thought that the SRT carried
M40A1s.)
Date: 21. May 96 22:51
Jay: I just scrolled through the Roster to see if I had missed anything
when I saw your response to my screed. I had somehow missed it previously
and I felt bad that I hadn't replied sooner.
Date: 22. May 96 2:31
To Scott Powers Which cartrigde length with a free bore barrel? Nota
My caliber is 6.5*57 Pierre DVC way of life.
Date: 22. May 96 11:10
I SENT INFRO. ON STATE ARMS 50.B. M.G. BUT FORGOT TO GIVE E-MAIL ADDRESS
JIM ERICKSON
Date: 22. May 96 12:19
Don,
Date: 22. May 96 15:25
To all, thanks for the nice messages.
Date: 22. May 96 20:22
Marcus, the main reason for neck sizeing is to move the case as little
as possible . when you full lth. size a case you move the case a lot. one
way of stopping this prob. is to have a tight neck chamber made . BUT before
u do talk to someone who has as there is a lot of work turning the cases.
reading has just come out with a new neck sizeing die ITS GREAT LOVE IT
use it on three of my custom wild cat rifles.
Date: 22. May 96 20:51
To Marious: What Caliber/Cartridge combo are you using? Is reloading
legal in SA? My friend from Kenya tells me that it is verbotten in many
African nations. I have succesfully used 165gr. Sierra Gamekings for my
.308 win. (7.62x51). I can't seem to get the group size below .850". Four
shots usually go into .5 or there abouts but I always seem to get a stubborn
shot busting the cluster. Probably just me! .850" will probably do what
you ask but tighter is always better! I am pushing a max load (47.2gr win
748) so there is probably room for improvement if I slowed things down.
I use Federal 210M primers and Fed brass. I also have to seat the projectile
out kinda far - 2.80" OAL. Head shots are challenging at that range, hope
you have a quality scope. What type of Rifle are you using?
Date: 22. May 96 23:47
Marius: What are the gun laws in South Africa. I remember hearing that
the National Party government had banned certain types of assault weapons
to keep them out of the hands of the ANC, but I don't recall the specifics.
Now that there is a new government, with various white opposition groups
and Zulus presumably still fighting the ANC, what is the state of gun laws
in the R.S.A.? Full-auto? Semi-auto? Magazine ban? What gives?
Date: 23. May 96 2:16
I have always been interested in the .50BMG round.Can anyone describe
what its like to touch one off from a shoulder held rifle? A couple boxes
of .300 win mag with a 10lb rig is about all I care to shoot in one afternoon.How
many .50s would you want to shoot before packing up and hitting the hot
tub? Roy
Date: 23. May 96 11:29
To Gary Turner :
Date: 23. May 96 11:59
Roy,
Date: 23. May 96 12:07
A few questions I've had bouncing around in my head regarding the use
of hollowpoints in wartime:
Date: 23. May 96 13:05
I just wanted to say that this is the best site on the web that is
about sniping, that I've seen so far.
Date: 23. May 96 13:55
Jay: I can answer these questions, but to do so without taking up a
lot of space, I need to think through the answer. Plus, I wanted to consult
some reference materials.
Date: 23. May 96 14:39
To Scott: my whole outfit currently is local stuff. The rifle is a
30-06 Musgrave, 610mm barrell, with a Model K98 Mauser bolt-action and
walnut wood stock. It has a round capacity of 5 - 1 in chamber and 4 in
magazine, and weighs approximately 3.6 kg. The ammunition I use is again
local - powder from Somchem, makes all South African powders, imports is
too expensive with our useless rand. The bullet I currently use is a 180gr
soft-point, again local - PMP ( Pretoria Metal Pressings ), with PMP casings,
and CCI 200 primers. I am currently breaking myself in - currently about
2"-3" 5 shot groups at 100 metres - stilla long way to go. My reloading
kit is from Hornady. I still need to get a chronograph, to spec my loads
- will in the meantime get to a range that has got one. Once I shoot tighter,
I will spec new loads using Woodleigh/Nossler/Barnes-X, and local Stewart/GS
bullets. In tests this local GS outperform Barnes-X as far as penetration
and weight retention go, while still mushrooming perfectly.
Date: 23. May 96 14:55
To Don: Auto's are still a definite NO-NO in private name, although
farmers have been provided with the previous Army weapon, the 7.62 R1 full
automatic/rifle, which is a nice shooter, because of all the attacks on
them. But these stay in the Commando's name, and will most probably have
to be returned one of these days. Semi-auto's are the same, unless you
live in border regions where we still have cross-border raids and the like
- there you can get something like a Ruger mini-14 for yourself - elsewhere
it is out of the question. In .22 and shotgun you can get semi-auto though.
Magazines are allowed as fitted on the rifle. But with our new constitution,
and all the moves currently afoot, as in the USA, it might be getting more
and more difficult to own a personal firearm - there's a lot of idiots
who think you can have a peaceful society by banning guns - then only the
baddies will have guns - so this is really a bone of contention currently.
Date: 23. May 96 17:36
I HOPE I AM NOT OUT OF PLACE HERE, I AM NOT A GOV. HIRED GUN THAT GOES
AROUND THE WORLD DISPOSING OF HUMAN GARBAGE THAT NEED TO BE RE- LIEVED
OF LIFE. I DO HOWEVER ENJOY THE ABILITY TO HIT LITTLE TARGETS AT LONG DISTANCES.
I HAVE A REM VSSF. 308 THAT SHOOTS 1/2 M.O.A., BUT I CANNOT ALWAYS MAKE
IT TO REDLANDS TO WRING IT OUT. SO I FOUND SOMETHING ALMOST AS FUN. I BUILT
A CUSTOM RUGER 1022 WITH HEAVY FLUTED MATCH BARREL, COMPOSITE STOCK FROM
HOGUE,TITANIUM TRIGGER,FIRING PIN,AND BOLT HANDLE, FROM POWER CUSTOM,AND
TRICK HAMMER FROM VOLQUARTSEN. I TOPPED OFF MY PROJECT WITH A LEUPOLD 3X9
SCOPE. THIS GUN SHOOTS GREAT 10 ROUNDS INTO 3/4" AT 100 YRDS. THE SQUIRRELS
THAT USED TO SEE ME COMING WAY BEFORE I WAS IN RANGE WITH MY OLD REM 22.
ARE DECLINING RAPIDLY. I HAVE MANY GUNS IN MY BATTERY BUT I CANT REMEMBER
BEING SO EXCITED ABOUT A GUN, WELL MAYBE I WAS AS EXCITED TO GET MY CUSTOM
1911 BUT THIS IS A 22 RIMFIRE. ALL YOU SNIPER TYPES OUT THERE SHOULD BUILD
ONE FOR YOURSELF MAKES FOR GREAT PRACTICE WHEN YOU ARE AWAY FROM A RANGE.
PLUS THERES NOTHIN LIKE HEAD SHOOTING A SQUIRREL 100 YRDS AWAY TO BRING
A SMILE TO YOUR FACE, AND HELL YOU CAN ALWAYS PRETEND THAT FAT ASS SQUIRREL
IS SADDAM INSANE AND YOU SURROUNDED BY CAMEL JOCKEY'S WITH AK47'S RIGHT..................................
Date: 23. May 96 18:48
MADDOG: I really enjoyed your post (head shot on a squirel @ 100 yds!!!),
but the ALL CAPS are pretty ugly. Just thought you might be interested.
Date: 23. May 96 19:24
interesting site:
Date: 23. May 96 20:03
Don B:
Date: 24. May 96 5:13
Reguarding the message from Russell E. Taylor
Date: 24. May 96 7:30
To: Bob Gardner
Date: 24. May 96 11:33
To Tor :
Date: 24. May 96 11:56
TO: CRAIG, TRY A COMPANY CALL PARAGON FOR 50CAL. AMMO. THERE LISTED
IN SHOT GUN NEWS. THUNDERBIRD CARTRIDGE COMPANY,INC. IN PHOENIX,ARIX. SELLS
MATCH AMMO. THE PRICE $212/C THIS AMMO SETS THE STANDARD BY WHICH ALL OTHERS
ARE JUDGED. WHEN YOU GET INTO LOADING YOU CAN CUT THE COST TO ABOUT $1.40
A ROUND.E-MAIL ME, I HAVE LOTS OF LOADING DATA. MY RIFLE DIDNT SHOOT PMC
UNDER 3" AT 200YRS. TO:ROY THE 50.CAL PUSHES YOU ,WERE AS A .300WIN KICKES.SHOOTING
FROM A BENCH IS HARDER ON YOU THAN PRONE. THE POWER IS TRANFSERED OVER
THE INTIRE BODY.FOR THE BEST GROUPS, USE "FREE RECOIL" . WORKS OK FOR SIGHTING
IN, BUT NOT FOR FIELD USE. TO:MR. TAYLOR THANK YOU FOR THE REPLY,GOOD LUCK
CAMPING OUT.JIM
Date: 24. May 96 13:57
Jim,
Date: 24. May 96 18:22
TO: JAY THANKS FOR THE INFO. I FORGOT ABOUT THE LONGER RANGES . WILL
TEST P.M.C. OUT TO 1200 AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.WHEN I SHOT THE P.M.C., ALSO
SHOT SOME RELOADS AT 200YRS, 1 RAGGED HOLE. MOST OF MY LONG RANGE SHOOTING
HAS BE DONE WITH THE 300WIN. JIM, SO.OREGON
Date: 25. May 96 0:59
State of Florida CCW does not allow you to enter Banks or Federal Buildings.
Date: 25. May 96 3:07
To Shiva: WELL SAID!
Date: 25. May 96 8:35
Does anyone have any experience with the new tasco 10x 42mm Sniper
Scope? They run about $450.00 wholesale for one And I would like a few
opinions on them before I buy one for my Remington 700PSS rifle in .308
Thanks, Eric Sharrock
Date: 25. May 96 10:24
Own Precision & Tactical Arms, specialize in ROBAR sniper rifles
(out of Phoenix, AZ) and U.S. Optics Scopes. (Scopes designed for specific
Military Sniper use for last 15 yrs. - R&D $$$ from military, far superior
to the "hunting" scope designs of Leupold, Zeiss, Swarovski, etc.)
Date: 25. May 96 11:57
U.S.Optics makes what it looks like a lot of you are looking for in
a Military Sniper Scope. The design started as a Military concept, not
a hunting scope concept. U.S. Optics currently produces a "Mil-Scale" reticle,
one combining full ranging capacity with a BDC of stated caliber, all of
which can be changed quickly. The optics are far superior to commercially
available scopes. The "Normal" resolution of the finest Euro scopes tend
to be at 44-46 line pairs / mm, these optics are usually over 100 line
pairs / mm! Usually 2-2 1/2 times better resolution, corrected for color
and system abherrations, etc. Ground within .000002" centrex (2-millionths
of centrex), and the tube bodies are much (extremely) superior to other
commercially provided scopes. The Military style knobs are "ball-bearing"
driven into stainless steel collets, which are designed from usual 1/4
min clicks all the way down to 1/50th min clicks, and are sealed from water
and dirt/dust intrusion. They adjust for diopter (+2 to -2), and the optical
system is so fine that when you adjust the adjustable objective on a target,
and it is in extremely fine focus, it can act as an optical "range-finder"
because the AO is very accurate. The models include: (1) the SN-1 , a fixed
power with AO, of 6X, 10X, 16X, 24X, and 32X models. Very rugged tube,
very high quality optics (as described above), the lenses start at 58mm
objectives, and optionally can be provided in 72mm, and 88mm, and now a
new one of 100mm size (the optical light gathering characteristics are
phenomenal!). Options include such things as optical glass bezel protection
lens, screw on lens caps, mirage tubes of 4" increments that can screw
together to make up modular system lengths, and lit reticle capability.
The next and one of the most popular series for distance snipers is the
SN-2 & SN-3's, which are variable power scopes. Again starting with
58mm obj lens, and 72 & 88mm available, and now with (a) 3.2-17 power,
(b) 3.5 - 22 power, and (c) 6.0 - 30 power scopes. By the way, the tube
sizes are also able to be increased, the smallest on both the SN-1's, SN-2's,
and SN-3's are 30mm, and optionally go up to 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, and 50mm
variations, where the erector tube optics also grow in size as do the tube
sizes, ie. much better light gathering capacities and MOA adjustments which
can go to 300 MOA in incremental adjustments. The variable scopes are extremely
bright and crisp, and also have the diopter and AO adjustments as the SN-1.
These are large scopes, and do have some weight to them, after all, good
optical glass does weigh something! Another series of importance is the
SN-4 scope, which has recently been adopted by the U.S. Army rifle team,
and is a Variable power of 1-4 power. It is a 35mm tube, reduced to 30mm
where the rings attach, with a larger turret for system options, such as
lit reticle, the changeability of reticles and BDC's. This is a Front focal
plane reticle, which means when you change from 1 to 4 power, the reticle
changes from a 12 min. circle "Fast Target Acquisition" reticle type to
a accurate target dot capable of fine accuracy out to 500 meters (BDC equates
also to 500 meters, for the .223 or .308 cal's). This scope lends itself
to the M-16, AR-15 or AR-10, SR-25, or HK-91 (SR9 series) firearms. (include
the CAR-series also). It is a smaller, more compact scope, with the finest
optical lenses available in the world! Several other styles are available
in scopes, including "Long Distance" scopes being developed expressly for
the .50 Cal up to the 20mm guns (24,30,plus power ranges), also with carbon
technology tubes, etc. Lets talk about optical lenses, and why these are
so great! U.S. Optics purchases optical quality glass just like everyone
else. Thats where the simularity stops. They proceed to process the glass
out to another whole expensive level: they reheat and re-anneal the glass
under pressure one more time, which drives out more optical impurities
and "straiae", including water, etc, out of the glass. This improves the
optical qualities one huge level above the other glass (like the Europeans;
including Zeiss, Swarovski, Hensoldt, Kahles, Leitz, etc.) Again, they
bring the optical qualities up to a new standard, one which the gov't could
pay for, and represented a huge step forward with optical clarity, resolution,
color, and less inherent abherrations, which = a "Stand Alone" quality
never realized in the scope marketplace! U.S. Optics also produces TACTICAL
MOUNTS, including BASES, RINGS, in varying styles. The "SCREW-LOCK" rings
are the strongest and finest made in the marketplace for Tactical and Sniper
quality ringsets. They are made in 30mm and larger sizes (to fit the 35mm,40mm,45mm,
and 50mm tubes). They are machined w/in .002 tolerances, and there is never
a need to "Hone" these as they are meticulously machined for exacting fit!
They are designed to be mounted onto the Picatinney style or "Weaver" style
military base. Also made by U.S. Optics, the bases are machined to .002"
tolerances, and fit together with the rings like fine machinery! They also
manufacture a "Quick Release" mount called the "Lever Lock", a fantastic
design that returns to absolute zero when remounting the scope. Also a
"posi-lock" mount for the flat top M-16, AR-15,CAR-15,SR-25 application
which allows you to reposition the scope for differing eye-relief distance,
remove the scope, or swing it out of the way. For information on optics
by U.S. Optics, their distributor for U.S. is Precision & Tactical
Arms, 250 W. Crest St., suite D, Escondido, CA. 92025. You can reach them
at (619) 489-1212, or e-mail at JFergu8740 on AOL. Look for upcoming Web
Page soon, we'll link to some good stuff including this we hope! Also,
Robar Sniper rifles, from the SR-60, SR-75, SR-90, all the way up to the
50 Cal BMG. All guaranteed better than 1/2 MOA, McMillan Stocks, Stainless
Steel Match grade barrels (Schneider, Lilje, Hart), built on the bullet
proof Rem 700 actions in all calibers, with the famous Robar coatings (NP3
and Roguard coatings), (note: the 50 cal uses K&P Precision barrels,
and can be fluted, etc). Also available, is the M-14 magazine conversion
by Robar, one of the few that work great! Fully adjustable stocks, Baker,
A-2's, M-24 and M-40 rifles, etc. Send for catalogs, get both Robar and
U.S. Optics for $5.00, great "Library" browsing! Thanks...JRF
Date: 25. May 96 18:17
TO ERIK SHARROCK: Erik I dont have any knowledge of that scope, but
for the same price you could get a Redfield Ultimate Illuminator scope.
It is 4-12x with a 56mm. objective and 30mm. tube very good glass for the
money, very tuff scope I love mine. I doubt anyone here would suggest a
Tasco over the top of the line Redfield, and its USA made with a rock solid
warranty. Hope this helps you out, Good Luck....
Date: 25. May 96 20:12
Darkman I had used to graphite lube in the past. It did inprove my
groups with Rem match in the past. which allowed me to get excellent group
size from the start with out any fouling shots. When I used the stuff on
Fedreal 168 bthp match I got a larger group size buy about an inch than
if I just kept the barrel clean form the start. Meaning no oil or cleaning
solvents. Note the graphite spray I had used is applied to the barrel and
not to the rounds as you load them
Date: 26. May 96 14:31
Jay: I was looking for my reference materials on the law of war and
I came accross this piece by the inimitatable W. Hays Parks on the subject.
I think it may address your question, so I have posted it here - Subject,
of course, to the fair use provisions of 17 U.S.C. and the applicable copyright
law. My apologies to all (especially overseas readers like Marius) for
putting so much text (hopefully only once) into the log. If the Article
Log only worked. . .
Date: 26. May 96 15:22
SNIPING IN THE FRENCH FOREIGN LEGION!
Date: 26. May 96 15:36
Does anyone know of any cases where .22 cal. rimfire hhas being used
for sniping purposes during the or after WW-2! If so how effective was
the small caliber.
Date: 26. May 96 22:43
Yes, all the above having been posted and I forgot to include the Conclusion
to Mr. Parks' article on the law of war. I include it in this posting,
apologize again PROFUSELY for clogging up the log, and promise that next
time I'll summarize. Honest.
Date: 26. May 96 23:09
Marius: Federal brass is so desirous given the company's very high
quality control standards. For example, the variation in wall thickness
between cases and in any given case (one side compared to the other) is
very, very slight. The difference in thickness in a given case will affect
the powder, when it burns, in a particular way. Without going into details,
you either don't use that case, or you mark the thick (or thin) side of
the case and then load it into the chamber accordingly. The variation in
thickness from case to case translates into weight differences in the cases
which results in differences in the amount of space in the cartridges,
which results in differences in pressure. Also, Federal does a much better
job of reaming the primer pockets, which again has an effect on pressure.
Of course, you know what effect differences in pressure have an a grouping
and the ability to hit the target - variations in pressure mean inconsistancies
in shot placement and loss of precision (accuracy?). I have heard very
good things about Lake City brass (available in the States through an approved
shooting club) and Israeli Military Industries (IMI) brass, though none
compares with Federal.
Date: 27. May 96 0:57
Can anyone tell me what kind of magazines the Armalite AR10 accepts.
Do they have hi cap clips for them? Or do they accept M14 mags???
Date: 27. May 96 3:48
Wow!! Alot of good info since i was here last. Don't have time to get
to involved be back in a few days and we will talk about the problems we
have with are Barret's. Also for all of you out there talking about ammo
for your weapons. For some real fun get ahold of some RAUFOSS rounds. For
those of you that don't know anything about this round here is some Info.
The round was developed by a Norwegian Firm, in Norway. The round contains
a RDX eplosive charge and a tungten steel penetrator. The round is identified
by a green tip with a silver band on it. These round are a real eye opener
when you impact them on your target. We have shot deer and other animals
while on the range and there was nothing to be found after we were done
shooting. I have all my Training Manuals here with me i will Dig up the
data on the Raufoss round and display it for those that are interested.
Well duty calls. Have to go work on these Haitians. Being deployed here
in Haiti has been fun but has been shitty for sniper training when the
Nomad returns state side the training will continue so we can continue
to KILL WITH SKILL!! OOHRAH and Semper FI!! THE NOMAD. "THE ONLY THING
I FEEL IS THE RECOIL OF MY RIFLE"!!!!
Date: 27. May 96 13:14
I was surprised that snipers use weapons as small as the .300 winchester
magnum. I use that calibre for hunting. I always thought that they used
.700 remmingtons.
Date: 27. May 96 15:36
Just like alot of others Ifound this site.Avery interesting site it
iorect weapons, and do very well with them.Most of what Ihave learned is
by way of alist as a sniper in many areas of the world,like Hatfield did
as a job. He is very good at what he was TOLD to do. Isit and listen to
the stories for hours amazed at what was done to eliminate a problem. People
think this neat stuff, let me tell you this man is torn apart inside.There
are things he'll say then stop knowing that the info. can't be talked about
. This is his way of clearing all the things he didas a sniper.Looking
through the scope and seeing what happens is not acool l thought. All the
young people with this ,it's so cool and neat,attit ude need to think about
alot of different aspects of life first before they make remarks like that.
Date: 27. May 96 15:59
Briefly went over what appears to be a nice link; keep up the good
work. M.Marlow STA 2/8 USMC 85-89
Date: 27. May 96 17:24
MADDOG: My understanding is that the Armalite uses modified M-14 magazines.
For a fee, Armalite will modify magazines that you provide them. The other
"Armalite" style .308, the SR-25, accepts the original AR-10 magazines.
They are quite expensive! When Russ Taylor gets back from Reserve Duty,
he doubtless will have more to add (or he'll correct any misstatements
I made!). He is a distributor for Armalite.
Date: 27. May 96 20:25
Does anyone out there have any first-person experience with the Bushnell
Laser Range finder?
Date: 27. May 96 23:37
TO DON: THANKS FOR THE INFO I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE WAY THEY PLANNED
TO DO IT BUT WAS NOT SURE THANKS AGAIN.......
Date: 28. May 96 17:28
Interesting Homepage! Glad to see there are other "Long Range" guys
out there. Here's another one for your "Hall of Fame".From "Canadians at
War" by Jim Lotz. Bison Books ltd. Canadian Indians, welcomed into the
CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force) W.W.1. went to France with the first
contingent. Private F. Pegahmagabow killed 378 Germans, and also won the
Military Medal and 2 bars for prowess in battle. "Ducky" Norwest, a Cree
killed 115 Germans with his sniper rifle (a Ross) before falling to a German
sniper on 18 August, 1918.
Date: 28. May 96 18:000
A good friend of mine says that brass is the single most important
ingredient in accurate hand loads. Comments?
Date: 28. May 96 19:15
I was a Army Sniper Honor Graduate class 3-88 Ft. Benning, GA. Would
like to talk to other snipers, not the typical B.S. Special Forces or Ranger
wanabees.If you are for real, please contact.
Date: 28. May 96 22:33
Don: Thank you, thank you, thank you! Its nice to see some one can
be as long winded as I! Good stuff by the way.
Date: 28. May 96 23:49
I have met a thousand snipers all experts in their own mind. I have
met eaven more Navy Seals. However almost all don't know the first thing
about fieldcraft or ballistics. None can estimate distance by milirads
or use a mark 4 scope. I'm not a sniper. Just the best DAMN hunter/sportsman
I can be. I served in the Navy Seabees in 67 at the end of the AHSHAW valley
just below the HIVON pass. This is where I lived a lifetime in 12 months
aged a thousand years. Sniper or soldier you never forget your first kill
or your last, you'll remember them all... Since then I only shoot game
and never let anything go to waste. If an animal gives himself to my bullet
I respect the gift and treasure the offering. This is so much diffrent
than before. For all of those that may read this, master your craft, be
proficient using a .223, .308 , 50BMG or whatever you have and accept the
challenge of being as proficient as possible. Lanc MacKay PO2 USN
Date: 29. May 96 6:08
I've read all the articles on this site and I think that it's the greatest
site ever! I'm not a sniper yet, but I've always wanted to be and this
site has a lot of helpful advise. Thanks a lot!
Date: 29. May 96 13:53
So, has John Ferguson convinced anyone to buy a 'scope? Not me, I'll
bet there're a small fortune from the description. Think I'll wait for
SA to complete the work on the Govt Model 2nd gen. for magnum rifles. BTC
for .300 Win Mag.
Date: 29. May 96 13:56
To Don: thanks for the info on brass - I did not know that. I am just
realising every day that I know nothing at all about reloading. Seeing
the benefits of Federal brass, would you then say it is worth to actually
buy loaded ammo just to get hold of the brass? Within reasonable price
obviously.
Date: 29. May 96 14:02
A question on chronographs - here in South Africa we do not always
have much options, as now:
Date: 29. May 96 17:15
Marius: Yes, I would definitely buy Federal Gold Medal cartridges just
to get the brass. In fact, Federal stopped selling brass so that is just
about the only way to get it. I think I saw somewhere on the net in a highpower
or reloading discussion page a reference to once fired Federal brass being
available (Gary, weren't you searching for this stuff?). While the once
fired brass sounds like a good deal, keep this in mind: firing new brass
in a bolt gun allows you to "fire form" the brass to the chamber (you want
this - it aids in accuracy). Some benchrest competitors absolutely will
not use someone else's brass as it is not fire formed to their bolt gun's
chamber. Of course, if you are shooting and M21/M25, AR-10, or SR-25 the
point is moot since self loaders don't fire form their brass (it gets ejected
too quickly).
Date: 29. May 96 19:32
Don, Yes I was looking for Federal brass and someone out there (sorry
I forgot who) Sent me an address: Excalibur Enterprises PO Box 1242 Largo,
Fla 34649 813-545-9587 They are suppose to have some unfired and once fired
Federal brass. Haven't contacted them yet but will soon!
Date: 29. May 96 19:32
Don, Yes I was looking for Feeral brass and someone out there (sorry
I forgot who) Sent me an address: Excalibur Enterprises PO Box 1242 Largo,
Fla 34649 813-545-9587 They are suppose to have some unfired and once fired
Federal brass. Haven't contacted them yet but will soon!
Date: 29. May 96 19:37
Sorry guy's looks like I'm trying to join the mulitple posting club!
I can't spell either! That's FEDERAL not feeral
Date: 29. May 96 23:08
Garry: I gather that the quality of Feeral brass is not as good as
the Federal brass and furthermore, groupings with Feeral brass are pretty
"wild." Let us know about prices, availability, etc. when you call.
Date: 29. May 96 23:55
MADDOG About your A-10 mags. The magazines are inherant unto them selves.
The Stoner 25's are very similar. The cutout in the stoner mags , mag relese
hole, is wider. This allows the stoner mag to function in the A-10 and
not the opposite. The Armilite A-10 mag can be easily modified with a file
and functions adaquately. Remember there are two varients to the A-10.
Portugese and NATO. NATO being the original production in the Netherlands.
The A-10 mags come in a factory 20 round configuration only. I am sure
someone made some varient but not in any mass. There is also a chain gun
version made and a 4x scoped version with a titamium sound arrester. There
was eaven an original stellite lined bbl. version made. All of this from
Fairchild Aircraft in the 50's. By the way if you know of someone interested
in one let me know. It's my hobby restoring one of a kind rifles. My problem
is that I can't afford to keep themall. Keep the crosshairs clear Lanc
Date: 30. May 96 11:23
When Knight's first began production of the SR-25, they found some
AR-10 mags in warehouses and modified them to work in the SR-25. By this
point in time, however, they may have run out of the AR-10 mags be manufacturing
the mags themselves. The cost for extra SR-25 mags is $100 each. Don't
ask me how I know!
Date: 30. May 96 15:16
I also own a Remington Model 700 Classic .300 Win. Mag. and I shoot
a federal Premium 200 gr. Boattail and it is the best bullet at a 1000
yds.
Date: 30. May 96 22:44
A little trick with your bore sighter device. Put it in securely in
the barrell note the cross hair impact point. Carefull not to disturb the
device in the rifle. Take the action out of the stock. See where the impact
point moves to. Some movement is acceptable as long as it is vertical only.The
best action bedding jobs probably will move less than 1 or 2 inches at
100 yards. (your instruction book will tell you how many squares on the
screen that translates to. this is good for evaluation of your free floating
job or stock fitting. Thanks to the gentlman in Reno for the tip about
catching the brass. Works better on smaller actions and some types are
better than others. I think the corp teaches this one. thanks
Date: 31. May 96 3:36
Hi If you like snipers, mail me!
Date: 31. May 96 11:29
TO RYAN CROZIER: Ryan I am afraid you have won the stupidest question
ever posted here. First off snipers do sometimes use 300 win mags, but
a Remington 700 is not a caliber its a model of rifle, that many snipers
use. Not tryin to make you feel stupid, but if you use a 300 mag for hunting
it seems like you would at least know that much....