Sniper Country Duty Roster

Bravo,

No sweat. Whenver you get freed up.

Patt II
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 01:46:33 (ZULU)

Sarge-

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

CDC-

I didn't have any flyers at all that day that I could tell. Every single shot hit the precise point that I called it for when I could see it on paper. Many were on steel so I couldn't tell on the hits but my return to target was so quick that I could see the misses from the impact in the dirt. Not the actual moment of impact obviously but the popped out dirt and dust ball. They were right on the money for where I called them and that felt pretty good. I just hate having an unexplainable "why the hell did it go there" shot. My rifle is such a tack driver that I'll always know it's something I did and need to figure out. I found all of the preshot mental checklist discussion helpful. I dry fired through it all several hundred times including in the hotel room the night before the match when I was half asleep at midnight (she says I'm obsessed and ridiculous). This rifle shoots a little better than my SCLE but it's a little bit more sensitive to technique. Maybe that's because the barrel is lighter I don't know.

Now I have to carry this momentum through next weekend for the monthly Sacramento match, and more importantly, into the big two day match at the end of May. I think the prize table is around 20 or 30 thousand dollars worth of gear right now. Only bad news is Mike Miller will be shooting there too LOL!

Mike I'm glad your shop wasn't damaged. This changes my commute coming home but I can still take the 580 into the city in the mornings. I just have to divert and go through Oakland streets by Jack London Square on the way home. It wasn't too bad today but alot of people took alternate modes of travel. I start early and I'm on the job by 6:00 am then leave by 2:30 or 3:00 usually so I beat most of the rush.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. bay area , CA, - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:01:23 (ZULU)

Bravo: The tip on "dragging wood" was Lindy's.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:20:35 (ZULU)

>>Anyone with experience with the AR30?<<

Bravo,

Go back to the Badlands website (forum) and ask Calvin. He's had his for a while now. I got to shoot it before the Phase I class in 05. Verry impressive.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:46:14 (ZULU)

To All: Thanks for all the information on the 6.8 and 6.5 rounds and barrels. Now I'm not sure what I want. I'll figure it out soon adn when I get it put together I'll give you a report. I am looking for a long barrel so it will give the powder tiem to burn and get me a few more FPS. I'll check out all the pros and cons. PS I like my old winchester .270 for shooting deer sized game but then I like my .25 wssm also. It'll take some serious thought and number crunching to make the decision. Also ammo availability will weigh in heavily also.

Once again, Thanks All and post any more info/sites you know about.

Jeff Cooper
Memphis, Tn, - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 04:56:37 (ZULU)

Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:51:03 (ZULU)

Mark S: "I dry fired through it all several hundred times including in the hotel room the night before the match when I was half asleep at midnight (she says I'm obsessed and ridiculous)."

As you go to sleep, visualize every step in the sequence. If you have trouble visualizing a step, you haven't mastered that step. All this may seem obsessive and ridiculous, but it really does help.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 13:41:27 (ZULU)

German software sucks swamp water.

Where's Pete Lincoln?

Duman
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 22:51:51 (ZULU)

All - new winds blowing -- more good stuff in the future. Check out this announcement (abit crowded on the formatting - but):

For Media Release

April 30, 2007

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC

forms joint venture with Iron Brigade Armory

to develop line of custom ar rifle platforms.

New“Bushmaster Custom Shop” will also begin work on specialized

bolt action precision rifles for Law Enforcement and Military applications

Windham, Maine / Jacksonville, NC – Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC (Bushmaster) and Iron Brigade Armory, Ltd. (IBA) today announced the formation of Bushmaster Custom Shop by Iron Brigade (BMCS) - a new Joint Venture Company that will focus on premium AR rifle system solutions, and customized Tactical Precision bolt action rifle platforms, initially for Law Enforcement and Military applications.

The Joint Venture Company will have its Manufacturing and Business Development organization based in Jacksonville, NC with Norm Chandler Jr. as its CEO. Bushmaster will be the majority owner and will provide the initial funding for facilities and personnel. This venture is the marriage of two organizations that are dedicated to quality, accuracy and durability in quality firearms for their customers.

“The opportunity to work with IBA allows Bushmaster to extend our brand to the premium end of the AR15 market place with customized solutions at lower volumes than our Windham facilities can handle economically, and is something that our customer base is telling us is important in addressing their needs”, stated E. Scott Blackwell,

Bushmaster President and Chief Sales and Marketing officer.

Initially, BMCS will focus on custom AR15 platforms based on the .223 and 5.56 caliber ammunition,

with first products being available for sale in mid summer 2007. BMCS will also leverage the work done by Iron Brigade Armory and it’s legendary founder – weapons designer and sniper author LTC. (ret) Norm Chandler Sr. – to offer a number of tactical precision rifles later this year.

Said Norm Chandler Jr., “Our goal at Iron Brigade Armory has always been to produce and deliver the highest quality tactical and bolt action precision rifles for military, law enforcement, and select commercial customers.

This joint venture with Bushmaster provides us access to further expertise in the area of the AR15 platform, to leverage and develop into advanced custom solutions for our existing customer base and new customers around the world.”

BMCS’s customized solutions will be based on Bushmaster’s proven, quality AR platforms. Configurations

and accessories will be based upon customer’s needs, and Iron Brigade’s experience and recommendations.

The products will be sold and serviced through the BMCS facility in Jacksonville, NC.

999 Roosevelt Trail • P.O. Box 1479 • Windham, Maine 04062 • 207 892 3594 • (F) 207 892 2687 • info@bushmaster.com • www.bushmaster.com

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC is the leading supplier of AR15 type rifles in the United States for Consumer, Law Enforcement & Security/Safety applications. Headquartered in Windham, Maine with manufacturing facilities in Windham and Lake Havasu, Arizona, Bushmaster supplies both Aluminum and advanced Carbon Fiber based AR15 type rifles and accessories to its US customer base, as well as Law Enforcement, Security and Military customers in over 50 countries around the world.

For Media Release – Page 2

April 30, 2007

999 Roosevelt Trail • P.O. Box 1479 • Windham, Maine 04062 • 207 892 3594 • (F) 207 892 2687 • info@bushmaster.com • www.bushmaster.com

About Bushmaster (BFI)…

Formed in 1994 – IBA specializes in designing, producing and selling customized Sniper Weapon Systems (SWS) for Law Enforcement and Military applications. IBA’s focus is to provide field/combat reliable SWS that are capable of urban as well as long range operations. By constantly observing and testing

the newest technologies, IBA has been able to label their latest SWS, the XM-3, as the standard by which all future SWS will be based.

About Iron Brigade Armory (IBA)

For further information contact:

E. Scott Blackwell

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC

999 Roosevelt Trail

Windham, ME 04062

Tel.: 207-892-3594

Fax: 207-892-2687

Norm Chandler , Jr.

Iron Brigade Armory, Ltd.

100 Radcliffe Circle

Jacksonville, NC 28546

910-455-3834 Phone

910-346-1134 Fax

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 03:00:39 (ZULU)

Again; Anything I post about shooting isn't meant as a lecture. Most of you guys know this stuff and more.

Mark S's post stayed on my mind.

"I have good news and I have bad news."

"Okay, give me the good news."

"Mike Miller will be at the tac match."

"Now, what's the bad news?"

"Mike Miller will be at the tac match."

CDC'
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 04:03:38 (ZULU)

Very interesting news about Bushmaster and I.B.A. (Chandler) but it makes me wonder why no reference was made of the fact that both Bushmaster and Remington are part of the Cerebus Capital Partners group. Rumor has it that Remington/Bushmaster will now be competing with Colt and FNMI for US military M16/M4 contracts.

Also, does this mean that the giant, now known as "Big Green and Black", will swallow up I.B.A?

Interesting times ahead for those involved in this;)

ALAN
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 04:23:15 (ZULU)

Travis, I was a partial, but basically good person. But u knew that before I took the test right? HAHA.. Actually everyone I work with insults each other daily. So that question shgould have been thrown out.

I wonder how the Bushmaster deal will work out.

Dirty Steve........

dirty steve
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 04:59:39 (ZULU)

More legal poo...

Went to the deposition yesterday... and the 14" high stack of 1,800 pages did it. They looked at it and just gave up on that whole line of questioning. :))

I also found out that my son's new lawyer for this trial... is dirty, and working for the Ex :((

It's gonna be a long pull, and I'm now my confidence is not high.

This is a Goddamned roller coaster ride :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 09:42:20 (ZULU)

'lito -

Your "son's new lawyer"? Is he the court appointed lawyer who's supposed to be independent of you and your ex so he can best represent your son's interests?

And you find out that he's working for your ex? Isn't that conflict of interest? Most importantly, can you prove it?

That sucks!

Don't lose hope. We're all pulling for ya:)

ALAN
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 14:27:57 (ZULU)

Bravo, the junior cuff and sling are on the way.

Marc, CDC not sure how to take either comment but with my luck the only thing I will win is one of the slings I donated.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 15:05:27 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

We don't insult each other. We just offer observations on looks, hygiene, lineage, etc. It's all meant in a constructive sense.

Oh, by the way, is that yer face, or did yer neck throw up?

OTW Badlands for four days of being flogged around by the Marquis de Sade (or, "Sad", depending on your point of view)for a tactical carbine course. Man, I'm getting too old for this stuff.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 15:30:48 (ZULU)

ALAN...

>"'lito -

Your "son's new lawyer"? Is he the court appointed lawyer who's supposed to be independent of you and your ex so he can best represent your son's interests?

And you find out that he's working for your ex? Isn't that conflict of interest? Most importantly, can you prove it?"<

He is a "she".

Here's the funny thing.

When I lost the first case, I spent four or five months trying to find out what happened, and how it was done. I knew it was a fix, but I didn't know how it was done, or what the connections were.

So after a while, I stating finding pieces and putting them together.

Then when this custody thingie started, I put the fixed trial aside to fight the battle in front of me.

In my state, the child's court appointed attorney and the guardian both come to the party by recommendation of the two parties attorneys. If they can't agree, then they both submit names, and the judge picks from the two lists. In Bravo's state, they are picked from a pool, and neither of the attorneys have any knowledge of who's going to be on it.

The first trial, the Ex's lawyer picked both, cuz mine couldn't find the girls room.

This time around, I got to pick both. That's a good thing.

Then the Ex's lawyer calls the child's attorney and tells her that it is pointless to take the case, cuz even if I win, my Ex will just comeback and file again, so it was pointless to take the case.

So she drops it.

So the Guardian says maybe, since she is a licensed attorney, wear both hats.

Now, all of a sudden, the ex's attorney says this is such a complicated case, that the child MUST have a separate attorney, and she Just happens to have one that will take the case.

That's how the Rat got his attorney.

She was at the deposition yesterday, and when the ex's attorney finished asking questions, my son's attorney picks it up and starts asking questions like she is trying to break my story. Then she spends about 45 minutes asking about what I have collected in evidence on the first case, what agencies I have been to, what they said, where am I in it, what evidence I have against the judge... this was her main push... and she had nothing to do with the first case.

They know that I didn't give up on the first case... and they found out a month or two ago that I am back on it... and now they are real concerned.

Nothing I can do to get rid of her... I'm hoping that she will follow the rules.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 16:50:59 (ZULU)

'Lito,

It sounds like the "fix" is still in play. In other words, the ex has two lawyers. Same as before. Just wear them down. Remember the positive things on your side. You listed those here a while back. It must be irritating as hell to have some "non-lawyer" guy like you to keep frustrating their evil little plans.

Some years back I had a legal problem with a guy that owned half of the county. It drove him screaming-meemy, F'ing nuts that a nobody like me could cause his so much misery for little or no cost to me.

I bet they curse your name to hell and gone after every court session.

Hang tough,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 18:27:27 (ZULU)

Lito, Sounds like they are scared. Remember you are still representing yourself still when you are sitting in the "chair". You may still object to questioning, as irrelavent, badgering the witness, or other reasons. You should advise them that the case is under investigation by the State Police and the Attorney General(Or District Attorney which ever you contacted) and you can not comment on the investigation. They should contact him/them and request the evidence. The Carpet Bagger attorney may object to your answer but the judge may smile and say you are right. The judge is going to be easy on your wording of the cause for the objection.

You go man...... There is a booming cat population in your hood that needs you focused back on them.

Bolt, You hanging in there? My Dad fell of the wagon again and openly smokes due to his mom's recent death. He was fine till he was drug into the Probating of the will. He didn't want shit but was told he had to take something. My dad aint big on handling pressure. I must have got my bring it on mentality from mom or Doc Howes. Dad said I looked more like the doc than him.

No condolences needed on the passing of Grandma. She was not much of a mother to dad. She only called dad when something needed fixed. Not once did she call on his birthday. I spent darn little time with her. I met her 4 times in 45 yrs.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 18:29:54 (ZULU)

Mike M: Having the opportunity to pick up some pointers is good news. Having to shoot against you is bad news.

Pablo: Your legal hassles looks like a bleeding ulcer X 10. Sympathy isn't worth much, but you have mine.

CDC'
Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 02:52:03 (ZULU)

CDC- Exactly what I was thinking :) I'm sure Mike will win more than a sling.

I'm enjoying this .260 so much I think I'm going to have to rebarrel my SCLE rifle for this cart. The problem is I've only fired about 5,000 rounds through it and it still shoots half moa no problem. I guess then it will be officially dead since the original stock and scope are both gone. It's just not right to live without a .308 though so there might be a T.I.S. rifle in the future.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 03:33:59 (ZULU)

Just saying hello here....

I'm a newbie to the long-range thing; the farthest I've ever shot was around 500 yards. A couple of guys I know are trying to get me hooked on the 1000 yard sickness, so here I am. Thanks Joe...

LAK Supply
PRK, USA - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 06:50:11 (ZULU)

Another newbie sayin Hi....

Pat R.
Wi., US - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 19:39:55 (ZULU)

Pat R...

You need to be "Pat III", cuz we gots two Pats already.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 21:16:44 (ZULU)

Chuck,

I thought Steve's neck was just blowing a bubble. Did it burst?

Lito,

They say you can't beat a man that's in the right and keeps comin'. Hold fast.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 21:31:17 (ZULU)

"Pat R...

You need to be "Pat III", cuz we gots two Pats already."

'Lito,and all,

Any objections to P.C Pat?? The P.C. wouldnt mean politically correct either....It's more like Problem Child..:)))

Or Diesel Pat??

Pat 111 or the third reminds me too much of Charles Emerson Winchester the 3rd from Mash...:)

Awhile back I read your .17 Fireball was in jail...Were you able to get it released?

Yes...guilty of lurking.

CDC ...Really enjoyed the reads on trigger pull.

I know there other contributers to that send but

dont know who all to thank....It was a very good

read for a beginner.

UnPat for now.

Unnamed Pat
Wi, US - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 01:13:36 (ZULU)

"UnPat" workie for me!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 02:04:05 (ZULU)

UnPat: "CDC ...Really enjoyed the reads on trigger pull."

Thanks. I'm glad you got some use out of it.

CDC'
Friday, May 4, 2007, at 04:16:30 (ZULU)

OK gang a little help here: It's now time for RELOADING COUNTRY!

Have: LC 5.56 brass sized, trimmed, primed and ready to load.

Have: 62 gr generics of some kind, not pulls from the looks of them but even the gunshop owner couldn't tell me who made them.

DON'T Have: a good powder recipe for this load!

Hodgdon/Winchester data show W748 @ 25.5 grs. Further internet search, including the rifle data @ AR15.com wasn't/hasn't been much help, do have a post in the reloading section there that hasn't been responded to yet.

OK who has a good recipe for this set-up? Have about 250+ rds of this generic stuff so want to use it, don't like empty brass and unused bullets laying around. That must be the reason 200+ rounds of .308 AND another 200+ .223 got loaded today!

Anyway some one have a good load for the 62 gr??

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 07:19:44 (ZULU)

Sarge

My 20" DPMS likes 24.5 of H335 with those same components.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 11:13:43 (ZULU)

Sarge....The powder measure on my .223 dedicated Dillon RL550 has been set for 26 grains of Win.748 for years..Load 55 gr. Ballistic tips, Win. 55gr.FMJ, and 60gr. partitions all with this charge. Works for me!

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 12:52:31 (ZULU)

Hey Sarge,

I've used 25 gns of varget for 55 gn and 64 gn .223 fodder since it came out. Works good in all my stuff. I use LC brass alot to...

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 13:29:17 (ZULU)

UnPat...

>"Awhile back I read your .17 Fireball was in jail...Were you able to get it released?"<

Not yet... I'm paying over $600 for court transcripts this month, and I had to pay for 1,800 pages of legal poop to be copied (it worked... they can't sort it out ;).

I gots the money in an account that was in a whimpy stock brokerage firm that went TU. The state took over the assets, and they are holding about $1,000 in the state treasurer's "Lost property" account.

I am in the process of getting it back, but the process is slow. The Friggin state has the money, they knew my address and phone number when they took the account over from the broken stock firm... you think they would send a letter saying "We gots yo' dough, fill out these forms"???

NOoooooooooooooo. Not Connecticut. They say nothing, hoping that I will die and they can keep the friggin' money.

Remind me to tell you what I think about the Connecticut gubberment sometime :((

Anyway... I got most of the papers required, except the notarized letter from my great, great, great, great, grandmother. ;)

I ought to have it out some time soon... got no time to shoot right now anyway.

The ex and I both had to submit "Financial Affidavits" to the court about a motion that I have in front of the court... they have been stalling for 4 months. It's a simple 2 page form about income and expenses - the expenses are simple... total gross income, rent or mortgage, taxes, phone, transportation to work... that kind of shit.

She's a top of the line accountant that worked for the standards board that wrote the accounting standards for all the big companies (like Exxon) in the USA.

So she that good - good enough that given 30 days with the books, she could convince you that Enron was still a solid company.

So I file my little 2 pages with the court three weeks ago, and yesterday, I get a copy of her financial affidavit.

It's not on the court form... it's 8 pages long and written in such a convoluted way that the poor judge won't be able to understand it.

She's makin' a gross of $150,000 a year, lives in a free apartment, drives a 10 year old junky car, and this "masterpiece" makes it out that her expenses are $1,500 more a month than she makes.

It took me and Mary an hour just to figure it out.

BUT... in my state, it is a felony to present a false financial affidavit... in fact, it's two felonies. Perjury, and Tampering with evidence...

I gots my fingers crossed ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 14:26:50 (ZULU)

Lito,

Don't be sure the judge won't see it for what it is. A smoke screen and lie. He practiced law at one point. You may ask her if she is such a good finanical whiz why she is 1.5K in the whole every month and how does she make up for those losses. She would either have to show a growing Credit Card or line of credit debt. Plus I would ask the judge to see her 2006 tax forms. She may then petition to see yours too. But it would be a true indicator of her finances. OR request the judge make her submit the form provided by the court. Her being irresponsible with money should give you the upper hand I would think. Judge,"Hummm this guy has his ducks in order, she makes 150K a year and tells me she is broke and works in finance? Something aint right, and me thinks I know what it is. I find for the nice young man with the cat fur coat."

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 15:45:47 (ZULU)

Dirty Dudeski...

>"I find for the nice young man with the cat fur coat."<

You cracked me up - my first laugh of the day ;)))

Oh yeah.. I gots to tell you... "nice young man"... I'm older than dirt!

HA!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 15:51:29 (ZULU)

Lito,

"BUT... in my state, it is a felony to present a false financial affidavit... in fact, it's two felonies. Perjury, and Tampering with evidence..."

Did she have to sign this document and have itnotorized? Just wondering I would think she would have to have it notorized to be concidered a false financial affidavit. But I'm no lawyer but I have seen these slimey F*^$ monkeys in action. When I was new at my job they would try to screw with me. Twice on the stand was all it took for me to learn how to answer them and piss them off. Officer you state in your report that Joe Dirt bag was 15 to 20 feet from you. Is it possible he was 21 feet? No he was 15-20 feet a way. How far am I from you now between 3 feet and 25 feet. Thats a big distance, isn't it?. Sometimes I judge distance better than at other times(smile).

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:02:52 (ZULU)

'lito -

How old is the RR now?

I hate to say this, but with all of this legal ass-dragging going on could it be possible that he reaches the age where he is allowed by the court to make his own decision before you and the ex are done with your court battles?

Just thinkin' out loud!

ALAN
Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:12:41 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

Yes, it is notarized, and as such, it is legal evidence.

ALAN...

Ruggus Rattus is 15 + 10 mo. In 10 more mo, he can file a paper in the local court and walk out the door. At the rate that courts move, he's be in grad school before they get around to it.

But here's why I have to fight it now.

She filed (before me) a motion that I can never see or speak to the rat ever again ('til he's 18).

So if I pull out, she wins and I loose the rat.

Also... he has lost 2 years of school, and if I don't get him into another school, he's lost three.

And last, if I quit on the little booger, he would collapse.

If I loose, he can handle it, but if I quit, it would tell him that I didn't care... and he don't need that shit, and he would never trust me again... and I wouldn't blame him a bit.

So I'm in for the pound.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:29:07 (ZULU)

'lito

Understood!

ALAN
Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:33:31 (ZULU)

"Dirty Steve,

If you do, as you stated, believe in the crap you posted the link to, YOU are the one with anti-social tendencies. YOU are the one that needs to hang up your gunbelt.

I agree that we need some cops that aren't afraid to crack a skull or two, but the citizenry is NOT your enemy. If they annoy you so much, get a rent a cop job guarding an empty warehouse at night."

Travis-- you are a humorless pot-stirrer. Get over yourself. If you don't like cops there's a reason for it. None of us owe you an explanation least of all Steve. If you can't shoulder some responsibility for society at least have the courtesy to STFU.

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 17:09:27 (ZULU)

Lito, I knew you were old. I remember once you talked about when dirt, still had that new dirt smell. HA double HA as Pat would say, not unPat. Just the judge I usually an older person.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 17:10:23 (ZULU)

Gentlemen: Are Burris optics of the tactical pattern worth the

bother? If the budget route does not seem practical it appears

that a 401K loan may be in order. I appreciate my Charles Hunt's

candor on the matter.The matter of money aside, the other problem

is power of the scope. I love fixed power scopes and am sure that

the Burris is a wonderful work of glass. That being said I reside

in the western Ozarks were the terrain is well folliaged. Yes

there are certainly those shots to be made at 800+ meters and more.

Its those close shots that are more often than not, say 25 to 100

meters. It is the ability to crank down the power and of course

mechanical repeatability that is important in this part of the

world.

Jerry Davis
Rudy, AR, US - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 18:43:43 (ZULU)

Steve B,

Thanks, but Travis and I have made up. We are all trying to play well together So JoeM., will come back and maybe YoteBait too. As far as his comment about my neck blowing a bubble that didn't burst. I just couldn't think of a witty retort that could top it. I was going to say, "It wasn't my neck he was looking at. It was my butt. I need to see the doctor about my hemriods." But that really would do me any good would it. Ha

Unclean Steve..........

Oh, No postings from Bolt. I hope he is winning his fight with cigarettes. Bolt if you are there give us a sit-rep.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 20:33:01 (ZULU)

Lito, I saw this as a guys signature line on Savage shooter. Thought you might find it funny. "A cat almost always blinks when hit in the head with a ball peen hammer!"

Oh, I'm off today and doing laundry in case someone wonders why I have so much time today.

Dirty Steve............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 20:56:10 (ZULU)

Jerry Davis.

I don't recall anyone thinking Burris scopes were too great.

If your ranges are from 25 yds to 600, you might consider a 3.5 to 10x

A 10x scope at 25 yds can be a real handicap.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 22:22:38 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Anyone have the latest poop on HR1022? Hopefully, it will be DOA.

Pat II
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 00:00:26 (ZULU)

Steve Burris,

I realise that you're too ignorant to read an entire thread, in order to make certain that the issue is unresolved. But apparently, you're compelled to piss in other people's boot for no reason. Maybe you're off your meds., I don't know.

I never said I don't like cops, but yes, (DUH!) there WOULD be a reason for it if I didn't.

As for shouldering responsibility for society, WTF are YOU doing, besides barking at someone in another country about something you have no stake in? I suggest, if you really want to do a public service, you have yourself fixed, so you won't be dirtying up the gene pool, as we currently have more than enough recessive genes.

Toodles, Dickweed!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 03:00:37 (ZULU)

'Lito:

"6.8 SPC???

Anyone know why they chose the 6.8 (0.277" - aka 270) sized bullet, when there are few, if any, good 6.8 bullets, and tons of good 6.5 bullets??"

Supposedly the group that developed it tried a lot of different things starting with 6mm. However, they found the 6.8 to provide the best terminal effect. They weren't trying to develop more than 3-400 yard capability, so the 6.8 edged out the 6.5.

Check out Zak Smith's article on his site. Sorry I don't have the link handy.

Steve

I see Travis came up with another cogent and reasoned retort.

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA , USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 03:47:21 (ZULU)

Steve,

Guess JoeM will see anothe pie throwing contest. He left because they tied up to much bandwidth with out doing anyone any good.

6.8? I think a 260 AI would be a fun toy. I even went out and bought some 260 brass just waiting for an excuss to build one. Ok, actually I'm waiting of vet and feed bills to lighten up.

Any one hear from Insane lately? I was wondering if he shoots at Bayou but hasn't posted since his guy was shot.

Dirty Steve..............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 03:56:11 (ZULU)

Unclean One-- Subject dropped, no pie in my hand. I'm just tired of the "cops suck" attitude prevalent on most gun boards now.

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 04:11:12 (ZULU)

Jerry Davis,

I Had a Burris Variable Tact Mildot Illuminated in my hands at a in Wharehouse store,Counterperson couldnt locate box or spec sheet,also didnt have a MK4 L/R Leupold to put alongside it to compare like for like.They had a price tag on it of...$1,200.

I very gently laid it back on the counter pad.

Glass was ok...Illum adj ran from very dim at lowest to annoyingly

bright at highest set in the store light...

Is it worth the money?? That I cant answer...But I know I can get a MK4 L/R for roughly the same amount ....

Oh...And when I asked for a 2.5 in. or 4 in lens shade to fit a loopy VX 111 40 A/O the same counterperson said...Huh??A what???

'Lito

Are you still accepting contributions to the Free the FireBall Fund??

If so, can you e mail me the specs of where to and who to.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 05:14:25 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Put as much Varget in the case as you can without compressing the powder much. Fire for effect.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 05:41:41 (ZULU)

I have Burris, Leupold, and Unertl. I really like Burris scopes. I think $ for $ Burris is a good (FFII type) hunting scope, in the $350 or less price range. I also like their compact fixed power - have one on a .223 carbine. In the upper range scopes, they not there yet. But they are improving, and are as good as the new Redfield/Weaver lines.

Burris are "tough" scopes, and I think their light-gathering ability is good. But they are second or third tier, still. Hunting scopes. So they compete well against other $300 scopes. Or against the Leupold VX-II and VX-III lines. But not against the upper $ level.

JMNSHO.

Cheap is good. People are glad to find a bargain in the Super Sniper or Nikon scopes, but then snear at Burris, which is also pretty good value for the money in the under $400 market. (But then, I drive Fords.)

P. Hayden
United States - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 08:20:59 (ZULU)

Click. Ya gotta wonder if this stuff really works!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 08:58:32 (ZULU)

UnPat...

Thanks, but I never accepted money for the "Free the 17 Fireball" fund.

I'll get it in time - right now I don't have time to shoot...

... even if it's a mugger. Well, maybe a mugger ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 13:15:29 (ZULU)

The guys who come on occasionally and scold the board for not entertaining them properly confuse me.

It seems to me that, if a guy wanted this board to be better, he should post something good. If the guy particularly dislikes some thread, he could scroll past it. If he wanted more talk about some subject, he could just start talking about it.

CDC'
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 13:29:41 (ZULU)

I am, however, starting the "Buy a Cantankerous Old Geezer (me) a Swaro Spotter Fund". If you're short of cash, hock something.

CDC'
Aim TINY, NPA, follow through - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 13:34:06 (ZULU)

Help me, I've gone over to the Dark Side.

There is a .338LM being built for me as I write this.

I just got my first 200 rounds of Lapua brass the other day......they're BIG.

I've got a 500 count box of 300 grain SMKs on the way and am looking forward to the whole process of load development and dope collection.

Any advice would be appreciated. (Asside from, "Don't do it.")

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 14:02:11 (ZULU)

Kevin M -

Go for it! I want to have a .338 Lapua built for next season if everything goes according to plan. Got to recuperate from this years expenditures first, which were a new 6.5-284 on a Stiller TAC300/Bartlein/AICS and a 6.5x47 Lapua that I recently completed on a Savage FP10 action with a Border barrel in a McM A3 stock.

Please provide some details of your build. Are you using a brake? I sure would;)

Keep us posted on your progress.

CDC -

What you said about posting here!!!

ALAN
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 16:56:31 (ZULU)

Kevin- Wait 'till you hold a 300gr SMK in your hands. They are really big and heavy. A buddy of mine had George Gardner build a .338 Lapua for him a few years ago and it's very impressive. Fantastic drop and drift figures for long range then hits like a Mack truck when it gets there. Buy powder in bulk it eats alot.

Off to practice now for the Sac match tomorrow.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 17:20:38 (ZULU)

Ref: .338LM

It all started when Marty Bordson (of Badger Ord.) and I were talking.

I said, "If it were for all the marbles and you only had one shot, what would you use?"

Without hesitation Marty replied, "A .338 Lapua Magnum."

I agreed with his choice and then asked myself, "Why don't I have one of those?"

The project was launched.

The rifle is being built on a Remington Long Action M700 and will include an AI 2.0 chassis (desert tan) and a Badger FTE muzzle brake. I've left the chambering and barrel selection details up to Marty in deferrence to his experience with the .338LM.

I'm getting pretty stoked about this. I've got a S&B 4-16X waiting to put on it.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 18:38:43 (ZULU)

P Hayden

Agreed...Cheap is good.Cheap is very good.

<"(But then, I drive Fords.)">

A really small favor to ask ?? Please whisper the F-Word.:))

See,we have one of them too...And I know the thing can hear.

Weekdays are for pulling wrenches(Truck Mech)...Weekends are

for pulling triggers.Last weekend's trigger time was used to put

new tires on it,While under it I found the exhaust is starting to

leak,Shocks are wore out,needs a rear stabilizer kit and all four

brake pads gettin thin too...It never fails to amaze me how this

thing knows when I have free time/money to use for shooting or hunting and it decides the maintence it needs is more important.

Other half just returned from g/shopping...Need to go rub the dashboard and Say..."Your a good truck...Your a good Truck"

before something else needs to be fixed.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 19:14:18 (ZULU)

P. Hayden,

I started out with Burris scopes, and was always happy with the scope-for-the-money ratio. However, if you're hunting PDs in the desert, and are staring through the scope for hours each day, you really need to spend the $$$ and get a high end loopy, Swaro, or other high-end glass. The first few minutes through the glass won't tell you much about the scope, but at the end of a day in the desert, when your eyeball feels like a tennis-ball on fire, you'll know the difference.

A number of my relatives continue to work for "Fix Or Repair Daily", so please keep buying them.....

Duman
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 19:51:03 (ZULU)

Hey, if you have the money, get the Leica.

If money was no object, we would not be talking about Burris (or Nikon or SuperSniper.)

And I only shoot paper, and it does not move between shots. It is always where it should be.

That reminds me, I need to change the oil in my Ford truck today.

P. Hayden
United States - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 20:52:24 (ZULU)

PatII said:"Last weekend's trigger time was used to put

new tires on it,While under it I found the exhaust is starting to

leak,Shocks are wore out,needs a rear stabilizer kit and all four

brake pads gettin thin too..."

Well, you damn fool, quit lookin' under there!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 22:16:32 (ZULU)

Travis,

Read back aways and you'll see we have a new member: UnPat.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 22:38:27 (ZULU)

Marius,

Is it just me or is Zulu time an hour fast?

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 22:44:38 (ZULU)

test

Marius -- you need to edit that dippy little script that does current time + 5 and change that 5 to a 4.

I have too many local clients that would complain if I set the webserver to straight zulu time---- sorry -- done tried it.... There are about 100 other sites on this machine as well....

New Family Member: Picked up a good deal on a like-new Remington 700 LH, VLS in .308 for my wife. She's tickled. Has a harris bipod and one of the 3x9 non-mildot leupold scopes on it. The Major's tickled to say the least :))

Calvin - we might be able to get her to break loose to help deal with those varmints :)

take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 23:28:31 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad,

I now have nug(gun) envy. I would like a 338 Lapua but I just wouldn't be able to shoot it well. I am a flincher on anything bigger than a 308 or 30-06. Even with a brake, a good brake, the concussion effect would rattle me. But more power to you. Well with this nug you will have ample power at your command.

I decided to keep my 223 Savage a 223. I reloaded for it today and noticed a little deformation around the bullets near the tip. From them getting seated. Thinking of tossing my RCBS seater for a Redding. Opinions? Not sure if the ring caused will affect accuracy but think it couldn't possibly help it.

Thinking of putting to gether a 260 Remington as a dedicated F-class gun. Should I go with the Ackly version or the regular. My thinking is with the AI version the brass wont stretch as much. Was planing on using on of Savages new single shot actions with a Shilen tube. The Savage Team recently won a bunch of medal shooting in Ireland with these new guns. Thought it may be a hoot to try.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 02:09:07 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

Very happy with my Redding seater dies.

I suspect any marks on a projectile aren't good news, if you can feel them with your fingers or by running a fingernail over it - even worse.

What kind of deformation does it take to create turbulence at Mach II?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 03:43:39 (ZULU)

"Well, you damn fool, quit lookin' under there!"

Travis..Tried that.Didnt work.

Had to swear oath to replace bad parts,a steady diet of better fuel,

Weekly washes and of course lottsa dash rubs and "Your a good Truck".

:))

Magpul Precision Rifle Stocks??

Thinkin of puttin one on the DPMS.

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:39:44 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

what Rod said!! I have 2 RCBS "competition" seating dies and the runout triples from sized brass runout. The Reddings that replaced them are far superior. If I could just shoot up to the dies I'd be set.

Erik in Kodiak
Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:41:54 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve -

As far as seating dies go, I prefer the Forster Micrometer die. CDC and 'lito turned me on to them, and I think they're the best for the money. Forster will also fit the tip of the seater stem to your specific bullet if you send it to them with a bullet for a very slight charge.

But first - are you shooting a very compressed load of powder or is your neck tension too tight? Those things will cause marking or deformation of the bullet tip and you can cure either without buying a new seater die.

Build a heavy enough .338 Lapua with the right brake and the recoil isn't bad at all. It's the blast that'll get ya if your ear protection isn't up to snuff. And if you're shooting it at a crowded range the other shooters may have something to say about it too :(

ALAN
Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 13:13:18 (ZULU)

I bought three sets of the RCBS competition dies when they first came out - loved the beautiful solid Mahogany boxes with "RCBS" branded on the top.

The box was beautiful, the dies sucked. They have been catchin' dust for over 10 years.

Get the Forster or the Redding Comp seaters. Forster cost less and they are nicer people - you got a problem, they will go further than Redding.

Dirty... get the Ackely version. You have more powder space if you need it, but the best part is the case life - the 20 degree shoulder on the factory 243 causes case stretching like the rubber band man.

Ain't it amazing... after all these years, they haven't made an electric shaver that shaves as close as a blade???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 13:44:40 (ZULU)

Rod & Eric,

I can definately feel them. Some are worse than others. I loaded only 75 of them so I will try them at 500 next time I can get down to the longer range. I have a set of Reddings for my 308. Money well spent.

Alan,

We have a "Sportmans Whorehouse" I mean Warehouse, here in San Antonio and they stock the Reddings. I like not having to order and no wait. Both Forster and Redding have good reps for building good equipment.

They load is a compressed load. Full tank of Varget and a Hornady 75gr Bullet. The brass is quite old. So the necks are probably brittle and not very giving. In fact I am going to toss all my 223 brass that is not once fired. I have two 223 case ammo boxes filled with caes that are only once fired. I am just such a brass whore it is crazy. I got the once fored 223 cases for the effort of me tossing them in the truck.

Lito,

I was thinking case life would be better with the Ackly. How much flater shooting is this than the 308? And is there less wind drift. Guess I could play with a ballistics program.

I shave with a Merkur "Classic 1904" Safety Razor. It cost me about 27 bucks plus another 45 for a badger haired shaving brush. I get a better shave with this stuff. I use PRORASO Shaving Cream. Go here for shaving tips http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886845 and click on my name for equipment.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 16:27:47 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve.

The 260 AI will shoot a whoppin' lot flatter, and have about 2/3 the wind drift... but the price you pay is about 1/5th the barrel life.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 17:13:08 (ZULU)

Is the Remington .300 Ultra Mag and Remington .338 Ultra mag the same Length Action? I found a cheap Rem .300 ultra mag and want to get it just for the Action and have a Tube made up in .338 Rem ultra mag. My reloading books are prior to 2000 and I can't find specs for the Remington version of the Ultra mags. Any help? Thanks Keith

Keith Lucas
Bayville, nj, usa - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 21:51:34 (ZULU)

Hawgs... just confirmed with Brian abit ago... Nielsen Kellerman - the makers of those fine Kestrel 2000, 3000, 4000, etc weather instruments -- arranged to send 99 of those Kestrel 4000's to American Snipers.org.

Kim and I met with Katie Horn (Kestrel Sales Manager at Nielsen Kellerman) back at the Shot Show earlier this year. With follow up emails, etc - Katie asked what they might do to help our folks out overseas. I told her that American Snipers was definitely the place to focus energy, gear, $$, etc...

Katie worked with her colleages @ N.K. and arranged for those 99 Kestrel 4000's to go to American Snipers.

Folks - if you are on the edge of purchasing one or more of those Kestrel weather instruments - please consider doing so.. They are definitely supporters of our troops.

Take care all --

Ken :)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 01:51:04 (ZULU)

My father has started running a 6mm WOA, which is the 6.8SPC necked down to 6mm and it's pretty slick for a AR15 action. 105 A-max loads only take 9.5MOA to get from 200yd to 600yd zero. Now the math works out to 3070fps, which I think is a bit much, haven't chrono'd yet, so I'm guessing the A-max's are shooting a bit flatter than the BC indicates.

The 6.8SPC was designed to do the most tissue damage within the range 0-300m from a 14.5" barrel and with an acceptable performance to 500m. Any more than that is just gravvy, and better served using supporting arms anyways.

Another good alternative to the 243 if barrel life is an issue is the 6-250 or varient thereof. 240 NMC is what I'm running. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 01:53:55 (ZULU)

Alan,

I tried the once fired cases and the problem went away. Well there is a ring but it is only a blemish on the surface not the ding in the jacket I had before.

Lito,

Barrel life is important. But I found an article on the 260 AI written about Terry Cross' gun. Click on my name to go to the article.

Ken M,

I looked in to the 6-250. The 260 AI is a little flater shooting. a 142 Grain bullet at 2900 should use oinly 26 minutes of elevation from a 100 yrd zero.

Anyone here have an AR-30 in 338 Laaapuuaa? How's it shoot? I know I said I was a flincher, but since I need to buy a factory rifle to write off next year. I could buy it and just not shoot it much if the blast/recoil (mainly blast with a brake on it) is too much.

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 03:04:15 (ZULU)

Advice/question: This weekend I managed to break my M4 stock by clearing a tight round (yep, banged it on the ground and the plastic around the pin shattered). Now, this was just a match, and it was the last round (empty and show clear), so nobody died....but I sure don't want to do that again. And, I still have a perfectly good buffer tube/spring/buffer for the carbine. I'd prefer to stay with the carbine length tube/buffer (MGI) and spring, and prefer the adjustable length of pull (lotsa clothes in Montana winters)...it workee well. But, the stock is another issue.

Worse comes to worse, I'll go to an A1 length fixed stock (if anyone makes 'em anymore), but then I'd have to buy new spring, tube and a rifle adapter from MGI?

Any advice on what might be more durable than the M4 stock?

Its of to the races with the FAL in the meantime.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USofA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 03:18:56 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve -

It sounds like too much neck tension was a large part of the problem. If you can get away from using a compressed load you'll probably get rid of those slight ring marks on the bullet, if they matter to you.

SteveinButte -

Was it a gennie M4 stock that you broke or one of the aftermarket copies? Do you have the Mil-Spec diameter extension tube or the aftermarket style which has a slightly larger od? Just curious.

I understand that the LMT "Crane" stock is real tough, although I don't own one myself. Also, you might investigate the Vltor or the Magpul. There are others.

ALAN
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 03:36:17 (ZULU)

The AR adjustable telescoping stock has been notable for decades for shearing the locking pin/detent should you have to drive the stock into something.

The A1 stock is still in production, the A2 is a wee bit longer. There is a (I hate to use the word) "Tactical Entry" stock made by Rock River that's the same length as a collapsed M4 stock. Brownells also lists (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=16910&title=AR-15+BOOM+TUBE+STOCK) both a fixed and adjustable tube type stock of all metal.

WR Moore
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 06:05:29 (ZULU)

I'm a fucking wind dummy. There's just no nicer way to say it. Had my ass handed to me today in Sacramento by almost a dozen guys out of 40.

Unbelievable. I would almost say I should have gone fishin' but I did learn some things other than the usual exercise in frustration management so it was worth it.

Joe Ducos did exceptionally well as usual. He shot a couple lanes away from me on the second relay and I'm sure he had the highest score on our relay. It was like a lesson in shooting through the wind. He lurks here sometimes but doesn't post much and that's too bad. Gunsmith, former LE, good guy and excellent long range shooter.

The winner was one of the So Cal guys that I kicked the snot out of last weekend. I'm sure revenge was sweet LOL.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 06:33:01 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

>"Barrel life is important. But I found an article on the 260 AI written about Terry Cross' gun. Click on my name to go to the article."<

Terry thinks the 260 AI will have a barrel life of 1,500 to 2,000 rounds.

I would think that 1,500, or maybe a bit less would be in order.

Pat(HA!) has built a few of these 260 AI rifles and I remember him describing the first 4 inches of the throat as "40 miles of bad road", after (I think) 1,000 rounds.

Another solution is a .308 shooting the 155 Scenar. This bullet is about as long as a 190SMK and has a BC of around 0.530, and can be driven at 3,000-3,100 fps.

Using this combination, you can shoot as flat, and have the same wind drift as the 260 AI, and still have a barrel that lasts forever.

At $500 - $700 each, (for chambering, fitting, etc), barrel cost can mount up fast... unless you are building a "Safe Queen".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 09:46:08 (ZULU)

I think Terry has gone back to shooting a standard .260, rather than a .260 AI - and I think the reason was barrel life.

With respect to the adjustable M4 stocks - my experience has been that if you collapse the stock all the way down before banging the butt on the ground to clear a stuck round, you won't break the stock.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 11:01:20 (ZULU)

The life of the standard 260 v 260AI is no motive... the standard version, run at the same pressures, will give you about 10% more barrel life... which is not much at the 1000-1500 round level.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 12:11:07 (ZULU)

Ouch. Just got back from Badlands, where Rich Johnson of the Clovis, NM PD put on one kick-ass Tactical carbine class. I tell ya, fellers, gettin' old sucks. By Saturday afternoon, I was doing a good imitation of a steam calliope with a couple of tubes missing. But, if any of youse guys ever get a chance to attend a class run by the Lt., do it. I learned more from him, in four days, than I could have learned in YEARS from the SAPD. It was worth every dime, and they didn't charge many of those, either! It was good to meet up with some folks I hadn't seen in a while, too. I was interested in seeing how the new Aimpoint 9000 was going to hold up under those conditions. Wow. It rocks! Bang it, slam it, drop it, whatever. I left it on the entire time I was up there, the 50,000 hour battery life is till working. Using it only, I was making good, solid hits out to 600 yards using mil-standard 62gr ammo. Anyway, had a GREAT time, and now I'm gonna go put on another layer of Ben Normal (nothing gay touches this body) and recuperate for a day or two.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 14:05:23 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I have an Ar 30 in .338 lapua and it shoots just fine... As far as blast goes it's not to bad for the shooter but is hell and everybody else. Brake works good. Felt recoil with my loads is some where between a .243 and a .308. It's good to go for those looooong shots to !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 14:12:50 (ZULU)

I have found the standard .260 pushing a 123 gr scenar at around 2900 fps to be a functional solution with acceptable barrel wear (guessing)...I'm coming up on 2000 rounds with no measurable reduction in accuracy or MV.

I have a theory that suggests a 130 gr pill will be the optimal for the stock .260 . I've got 200 Norma 130 grainers to test with. The published BCs for this round make it inferior to the Laupa 123, preliminary real world testing suggests the opposite.

medicjim
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 14:18:26 (ZULU)

medicjim -

Have you tried the 130gr. Bergers at around 2850 MV yet?

ALAN
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 16:17:36 (ZULU)

Lito,

I have used the 155's, I was pushing them at 2950fps. But stopped because I didn't like ordering them and no one carried them. If barrel life won't be deminished drastically I guess I could go back to using them. Just order a butt load at a time instead of only 500 at a time. I will use them in the new gun only and use the 175s in everything else. Even if barrel life is only 5,000 I could live with that, but 1,500 is unacceptable to me.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 17:08:53 (ZULU)

Calvin,

"I have an Ar 30 in .338 lapua and it shoots just fine..."

Define this. I would like to know how it groups at 300 yards or better.

MedicJim,

Keep me posted. I am eager to order a gun but could wait a while. I just fear that your gun may go 2500 rounds and show fine. The 2501st round and subsequent rounds just go to crap suddenly. I know some of the real barn burners are said to go all at once. Don't know if it is true but thats what I have heard. But I also heard Santa sees me when I am sleeping. Which leads me to believe he's a pervert. Haha.

Dirty Steve......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 17:20:53 (ZULU)

Alan - Haven't tried Bergers... they never impressed me in .308, so I've been slow to adopt them on the .260

Steve - I'll keep you posted on barrel wear...I'm guessing 3-3.5K out of my stainless 24" bbl. I won't have it set back.

medicjim
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 17:32:48 (ZULU)

What is your guys thoughts on the redding Comp Bushing Dies,are they the best dies money can buy?I sick of buying things then wanting somthing better.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 19:17:55 (ZULU)

Kujawa,

From my experience, Forster and Redding are the BEST. 'Lito sez customer svc. is better at Forster (scroll up to ~5-days ago).

"Buy Cheap, Buy Twice" is my motto.... and the reason my wallet is empty. But I have a smile on my face when I use the equipment.

What's the latest news on your shooting?

I had a message on my machine last night, my buddy was worried I hocked some furniture for guns. I thought, "No, I haven't, but that's a darned good idea." It may be a first for the Emporium.... "WTS/WTT: Furniture for Rifle(s)"

Duman
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:16:06 (ZULU)

medicjim -

I was curious about the 6.5mm 130gr. Bergers 'cause I might like to try them in my new 6.5x47 Lapua. So far the only bullets that I've tried in it are the 123gr. Scenars and I'm only just beginning with them.

I know that the VLD bullets are quite often difficult to develop loads for, and that any I've tried demanded to be jammed into the lands, not always possible with some rifles.

I can say without a doubt, however, that the .308 dia. 210gr. Bergers really kick ass in my .300WM Sharpshooter II.

Dirty Steve -

"Only 5000 rounds"?

Not trying to be a wiseass here, but you'd probably be best served with a .308 and a .223!

ALAN
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:29:48 (ZULU)

Duman,

Nothing the past few months,I have been playing my 1911's to keep my mind off of my rifle that is being built.Im just waiting for a stock from HS.I should see it with in the next few weeks.I just got in 600 rounds of 308 Lapua brass.Other than that the weather put an end to our last winter matches.Then F-class has started but I refuse to buy anymore 168SMK's.I do have stock up on the 175's though.

Thanks for the help.

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:30:57 (ZULU)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122365

Check this out ya'll

Gooch out

Gooch
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:41:23 (ZULU)

Sucky week and finally over today. My German Shepard had been having chronic hip problems for about 3 months. I'd been giving her pain meds for a week fully knowing that I would be taking her to to be put down tomorrow. Well this morning she evidently had a stroke or heart attack and went to that big squirrel chasing place in the sky. I'm glad she went on her own as I didn't really want to put her down. You just don't get used to that stuff. At least she went happy, on damn good pain meds, just after working through the pain enough to have been playing with grandson. He just turned four and doesn't quite understand that she's asleep permently and won't be coming back home. I think that was my last pet. Tired of having them die before I do.

On a good note, my souped up Remmy 700 with the long barrel is supposed to be ready by Saturday. Will load some stuff up for the testing.

Steve, until today I had been smoke free clean since April 1. But this morning I had one on the way to taking my dog's carcass to the vet to be sent off. Kinda helped when my eyes started leaking so I figgered I wouldn't fight it.

Sorry I don't have any exciting shit to write about, Bolt out!

Bolt
Flag at the Bolt household at half mast......., NC, - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 00:28:28 (ZULU)

I'm sorry to hear that Bolt. As you said, at least she went on her own. Nothing sadder than your dog dying. Take care

doug sickels
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 00:47:14 (ZULU)

OK semi-sort-of OT, but how many of you are Ham radio operators? Gettin the bug again as there is NO CW requirement, for any class, that I could find! Have tried over the years and that dang morse always had trouble trying to learn it, but now!! The local ARC meets for a "Coffee" get together ever Saturday morning at the club shack and I happen to be off this Sat. Think I'll wonder over and yack with them and drink their coffee.

Just curious!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 01:50:21 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I went and took the no-code tech test a dacade back. We use the local HAMs for comms when things get ugly...they've been a real help and well worth the effort to keep up to speed on our emergency practices.

medicjim
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 01:59:47 (ZULU)

Alan,

Yes I am a cheap bastard. I want a long life for my barrels. I could probably settle for a 4000 round barrel but anything shorter than that and I would always be buying barrels.

Bolt,

Sorry for your loss. I know it is tuff. I have put several of my dogs down over the years. And it's a real "B" each time. Your having a smoke is understandable. I would wait a while and get another puppy. I just can not go with out a dog. Hell I have 4 still. Your posts don't need to be exciting. This is a pub and you need to drop in and chat. It don't matter your in NC and im in Texas. We can still have an internet beer together.

Aint know one here had a dry eye when Old Yeller died.

You still shooting at Buntner?

Gooch,

That just shows the desire of those who wish to harm us is far greater than most Americans can imagine. Of course I imagine they will stop at nothing to be a threat/pain in the a$$ to us.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 02:07:50 (ZULU)

SteveinButte:

CavArms makes a new A1 stock.

http://www.cavalryarms.com/furniture.html

P. Hayden
United States - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 02:19:55 (ZULU)

Follow a few of the links at the site Gooch posted.

This is going to get nasty.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 02:59:54 (ZULU)

" OK semi-sort-of OT, but how many of you are Ham radio operators? Gettin the bug again as there is NO CW requirement, for any class, that I could find! Have tried over the years and that dang morse always had trouble trying to learn it, but now!! The local ARC meets for a "Coffee" get together ever Saturday morning at the club shack and I happen to be off this Sat. Think I'll wonder over and yack with them and drink their coffee...."

Sarge: You'll do fine -- get the license study manual and review the material. Don't try to do the study questions by themselves... Unless you're a friggen genious. You can go to http://www.eham.net and take some of the sample license exams.

Now if you get the itch to learn morse code -- I can tell ya the right way to learn it... Even if the FCC did us a huge disfavor and dropped the code requirement -- I think you oughta give it a shot. Morse will get through when all the other modes can't ....

Rest of you hawgs out there with an interest in comms should @ least get some understanding of radio, propagation, etc.. as radio waves will work when all else won't - or at least until God stops the clock.

Take care,

Ken KA4AZY, (Extra)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 03:24:58 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Bolt: My condolences on the dog. I have a shepherd that just turned 9 and I hate to think of the day when he won't be around. That is the problem with pets, a built in tragidy. I always get another though and never regret it.

MarcS: Joe Ducos is a great guy who kicked my behind on a regular basis when I shot the Sacramento matches. It's been years since I departed Kalifnastan, but he used to shoot a sweet .300 win mag he built himself.

Travis: Wrong Pat. I can understand the confusion. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting someone named Pat....

Pat II
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 04:14:14 (ZULU)

Gents,

Steve In Butte: I have seen guys damage M4s/M16s by slamming them on the ground. I know this will likely take some incoming and you have to use some caution and care but if I had a tight round/failure to extract and I had to get the rifle clear NOW, this worked for me.

Drop the mag, if you have a live round in the chanber, attempt to fire it. If it is a spent casing, with no mag in the magazine well, rather than slamming the butt on the ground, place the buttstock on the ground, take the heel of your boot and give it a rigorous stomp on the charging handle. If you have a collapsable stock, put it on the shortest setting before you do this. If I had a live round in the chanber and was taking fire, I would do this doing my best, to include getting help from other to hold the weapon if available, to keep the muzzle away from me so I don't accidentally shoot myself.

DOING THIS WITH A LIVE ROUND IN THE CHAmBER IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AN EMERGENCY FIX ONLY. You could get shot accidentally doing this. If your standing around with a jammed weapon and you're taking fire, you could get shot unaccidentally. However, I have never seen anybody bust a stock doing this. It may have happened, I have just never seen it.

If this is common knowledge and I am burning bandwith unneccesarily I apologize. Hope this helps. FYI

Pat II
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 04:35:36 (ZULU)

Bolt - Sorry to hear about your dog. The joy they bring is worth the pain you feel when they are gone (it is actually the reason for the pain).

Maybe you'll heal some over time and get another pup.

My GSD is 9yo and I hate to think of when he has to go (luckily he isn't slowing down any yet). I know I'll always have one in the house though.

--------------------------------

Any of you guys who spend lots of time in the back country carry personal location beacons? I was thinking of renting one when we go elk hunting with CDC. IMO - it is one of those better to have and not need than to need and not have items.

Speaking of elk hunting - the dates for the hunt are 15-21 OCT.

We had a bunch of folks interested, set up a website, and had a call but have not seen any posts (save for me and CDC) on the site in a while.

If you are still planning on going - sign into the site and check in once in a while.

If you were not part of the group but are seriously interested contact me and I'll send you the website information.

Just as a reminder - this is a loosely organized hunt for deer and elk in the Palisades area of ID - East side of the state south of Yellowstone. CDC is going to do some scouting this summer and we'll nail down the hunting area. There are plenty of tags left - no draw for res or non-res. Each person must be able to take care of themselves in the woods, bring all provisions, show up in shape (it is pretty rough country and ranges from 5k-9k ft elevation,) and be able to navigate to a specific place and a certain time. Other than that - we plan on working together on the hunt and having a blast.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 04:47:27 (ZULU)

Lt. Chip,

Which unit/area is the hunt going to take place in?

BTW, guys, out of state license and Elk tag will total about $500, and kids 12-17 get their license for $7.25!

Click my name for the Idaho fish and game website.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/fees/nrlic.cfm

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 06:54:22 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Sorry to hear of your loss...Been there a few times.It sucks.

Pat11

"You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting someone named Pat...."

Got a good laugh outta this...and the same can be said about the name

"Steve" also,seems we got a few of them in here.:))

On clearing a stuck case in AR rifle:Had one stick and I was able to clear it by using a screwdriver,prying on the bolt carrier(not the bolt head)and the edge of the magwell w/rifle inverted,couple of thumps and it broke free....I know,who has a screwdriver in the middle of exercise or competition...Just sayin what worked for me.

Not tryin to start a pie fight.

But more importantly....What caused the stuck case???

Bad brass?Bad mag,weak follower spring or worn follower?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 07:33:11 (ZULU)

Hunt will be in units 64/67. CDC to specifiy location after he scouts this summer.

General deer tag is needed along with a 64/67 "B" tag for elk (antlered - any weapon).

Prices are a bit steep for out-of-staters. But there is no draw for the tags (they will sell out in a couple months though) and going with fellow hogs is bound to be a good time(also beats paying $5k-$10k for a guided hunt).

I plan to drive up Sunday(10/14) and be done hunting Friday night for travel back to N. Cal on Sat.

Cost of the non-res lic/tag are:

$141.50 for the hunting lic.

Plus $258.50 for a deer tag.

Plus $372.50 for an elk tag.

Total - $772.50 per adult hunter.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 08:23:45 (ZULU)

Click. AK lovers, please leave the room while this link is being viewed.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 10:47:50 (ZULU)

I learned Morse to the point of being able to converse in it at 35-40 words per minute, and handled written traffic at about 25, which is as fast as I can write. I enjoyed developing the skill and doing that, but with digital modes on HF being faster and more reliable, Morse is now mostly for fun rather than a critical communication technology.

Now I just use a Handi-talkie during emergencies.

One obsession at a time is about all I can handle - and now mine is shooting.

de AK5N

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 13:12:14 (ZULU)

Oh, yeah; My 10 year old son does the same routine at a much lower intensity. The little sucker has gotten as dense and hard as a badger. He likes it.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 13:37:31 (ZULU)

CDC',

I'd like to add.... BE SAFE. It's too easy to jump into a new routine and pull a muscle (or worse). I've had a number of injuries over the years/decades, and some will sideline you for months. To mix it up, you can pick up a copy of "Muscle & Fitness" from your local bookstore, and get tons of ideas for new exercises for any muscle group. This month's issue has a 4-week, basic, blast-em program.

Just my $0.02

Duman
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 16:08:20 (ZULU)

The best and easiest way to get back into the basic shape to support rigorous strength training is isometric exercises. It can be as simple as crawling around on all fours (hands and feet, not elbows and knees) chasing a small child or pet...a half hour of that and you'll have one hell of a complex muscle workout. My four year old daughter is my workout partner, I tell my wife that we are spending "quality play" time <g>.

Functional strength (read 'fighting strength') comes from complex muscle workouts, not isolated muscle bench work.

medicjim
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 16:15:11 (ZULU)

Has anyone used those redding Neck sizing bushing dies,I was looking at them at midway and they do not look like they have a decapping function with them.Am I high or what?

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 16:52:31 (ZULU)

Calvin,

Email OTW with a couple photos.

Fitness Country. Round is a shape, right? Just kidding. I aint gunna go no the hunt, but I do need to start some sort of exercise routine. I want to continue being a pain in most folks backsides for years to come. I have enough strenght just Zero endurance. Sitting on my but for two months didn't help.

Found out the range I will be shooting f-class at won't allow 338 Lapua's. That kind of sucks. I mean what the hecks the point of owning one if I wouldn't be able to stretch it's leg out once in a while.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 17:08:47 (ZULU)

Sorry Double tapped...

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 17:08:48 (ZULU)

Now that I've got mine:) Powder Valley has Ramshot TAC on sale and 155gn Scenar's in stock. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 18:57:04 (ZULU)

Jon -

The Redding Type S bushing dies come with a decapping rod. Mine have also come with a spare pin, in case one breaks. They also come with a "dummy" expander that you can substitute for the standard expander button so you don't have to drag it through the neck causing excessive case stretching.

I really like these dies and have converted to them for all of my cartridges over the past few years.

You can choose either a full length resizing die with neck bushing or a neck resizing only bushing style die. I combine the neck sizing bushing die with a Redding body die that allows me to resize the body only if and when an often-reloaded case gets a little hard to chamber.

ALAN
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 22:02:18 (ZULU)

Steve in Butte, on your M4 stock, I’d recommend the Sully. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not the smarty-pants: Geoff M recommended it to me. It’s a bit heavy ‘cause there’s no cavity in the butt for storage. I had my smith make a whole pile of green shavings with mine though, so it’s possible to hollow it out. Best of all: when you hollow it out, it’s still WAY stronger than a telestock, and won’t break under a proper type III malf clearance drill (as you experienced). The Sully is longer than the entry stock (got one, it was a bit too short for me) but still shorter by a bit than the A1 stock (have one, a bit too long for me). The Sully is just right IMO. Of course, Lindy’s statement makes as much sense as anything. I just prefer the cheek weld of the solid stocks to the cheek weld I get on a telestock (much like on a piece of PVC tube!).

Long drive to the shoot and back this weekend, it was all good. I used a rack grade ’14 (what else?), iron sights and old Indonesian ball. On the good side, Bub did well ‘nuff. The Geoff-built CZ 22 and TIS sling were as close to ‘cheats’ as anything, but couldn’t hold the weather off. (aside - Speaking of the junior sized quick cuff, thanks Mike! I got the sling as we were headed out, and you’ve got snail-mail incoming ;-) The slings made an impression on some folks, I’d be surprised if you didn’t get some serious orders from a couple out of Wyoming for their programs) Got nicely soaked for most of the day until the rain stopped – and the only reason the rain stopped was ‘cause the snow started. His big problem is that he won’t listen – or has a hard time changing to what he hears. That ‘dragging wood’ comment I made last week or so? Yeah, in spades. For his age though, he did really pretty well. The thing I didn’t know was that this whole thing would mostly be timed exercises. A kid using a single-shot had no real chance of anything, just due to the time restrictions. I kept telling him that 2 or 3 good hits beat 10 rough hits – and I lived what I preached as well. Surprising how many 10 round rapidfire scores I had with only 7 bullet holes... on the good side, take the one out of the pipe and you’ve got your 2 round mag already loaded LOL! Really though, there’s a reason the 5.56 is so much better for these types of shoots. Of course, I don’t practice with battle rifles to shoot those types of courses ;-) I think his ego got bruised too... from hitting coke cans at 50 yards all day long to not doing as well as he could have on the reduced targets. MUCH reduced.

Boltster – I hear your loss, and feel for you. I’ve come to the same conclusion myself, although who knows if I’m smart enough to stay that way or not.

So now Calvin makes me think hard about a 338! ArmaLite gonna put me on the frequent-flyer list at that rate (GRIN).

Update on Patrons Joe and Yote Bait – got a chance to talk with them on the long drive back while the boy slept. Both are well. The coyote whacker put forth a thought I’m pursuing... Badlands in a ‘reversed combat rickshaw’ (sounds better than carrying him around in a wheelbarrow). I’ve hired kids to work the pits for me before, I wonder who could be talked into pulling the wheelbarrow?

Ford (First On Race Day): when I was a youngster I asked my father why it was that people hotrodded Chev engines when Ford engines were designed better. His reply was ‘because all the aftermarket stuff in the world is built for Chev engines’. OK, well why is it that everything is made for Chevs and not Fords? ‘Because GM engines need it’.

Pat II (not hit with a dead cat Pat) – thanks for the offer, it appears the kiddo pursued this on his own (?!?).

KenM – did you get that or did I use a bad e-mail?

And real shooting country: it seems that somehow lately I’ve developed a blink. As in I blink once very rapidly in response to the concussion of my fired round. At first I didn’t think it was bothering my calling of shots, but as time went on I got convinced otherwise. So is there any way other than voluminous dryfire to get rid of my blink? Obviously concentration on not blinking wasn’t working...

Interesting stuff: at this shoot, there were all kinds of sticks present. By the numbers, it appeared that the Simonov was the most popular. Then came all kinds of AR15s, and then us dinosaurs with Garands and ‘14s. It appeared the juniors ran 22LRs entirely. The gray hairs (which I suppose I formally am) did well regardless of stick used - which you’d expect – but it seems that a good shot with a Simonov wasn’t to be bested by many at all. I have little doubt that if those Simonov shooters had used their bayos as front rests (bayo pointed straight down and shoved into the soil), I would have lost to a Simonov driver. Ugh.

Bravo
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 22:09:19 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

The redding Comp Bushing dies are top of the heap - if you are going to buy one, let me know what the wall thickness is, and what the outside diameter of the FIRED case is, and I'll give you some help picking out a bushing.

Sarge...

Go for it. The new manuals are not hard. The Extra class is a hand full, but the General is a walk in the park.

Now that CW is not required, there is more interest in it than there has been for 20 years. It is not fading, it is growing. When all the new guys get their phone tickets, CW will be the only place you can go without being trampled ;))

'lito de K2BK (Extra class - the hard way ;)

RTTY and AMTOR Rocks!

Pat II...(not hit with a dead cat Pat)

Did you say "Dead Cat"???

;)))))

Magic words to these old ears.

You guys crack me up!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 23:07:56 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

The F-class rules tend to depricate the bigger-cased cartridges. Sometimes it can also be a range template issue, the bigger-cased cartridges have a longer-range danger distance.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 23:31:09 (ZULU)

LtChip: Only three guys coming, huh? It would have been nice to have enough hard-cores to move more game over larger areas. Oh well, you guys already bought your paperwork so I'll do it like I believe it. I'll shoot animals.

Jon: Yes, you are high.

medicjim: You didn't read the links did you? Nah, not necessary. Skim and blast.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 02:55:01 (ZULU)

Watching a medical show, it occurred to me, doctors think of "CAT-scan" as a diagnostic tool. To 'Lito, "CAT-scan" means 'target acquisition'.

Duman
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 04:13:21 (ZULU)

CDC - there was no blast intended or present in my email. I didn't read your links. apologies if you took it wrong, no offense intended.

medicjim
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 04:21:10 (ZULU)

There "Lito sat,ina room fulla Pats, and a dead cat,

Where it was tossed didnt matter,the only goal was...

To Watch it splatter.

Unpat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 04:46:59 (ZULU)

CDC - based on the lack of response -I assume it is me, Chris (coming with me), Gary and you? Is that it?

As far as I know those are the only ones who made a firm commitment ever. Gary from IL purchased his tags –so I assume he is in (but have not heard anything from him here or on the other board in a while). Chris and I are definitely in. Don't know what happened to the rest of ‘em.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:27:14 (ZULU)

Bravo,

On your blink problem...duct tape or super glue. Both work well, one too well.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:32:08 (ZULU)

You guys really need to check out the link Gooch posted.

Lindy- "One obsession at a time is about all I can handle - and now mine is shooting." I liked that one. I think I'll steal it if you don't mind :)

Lt. Chip- I've thought about a beacon ever since I heard the story of the climber/hiker that got his hand stuck in a rock and had to cut it off. Do you guys remember that? That guy had the coolness under pressure to realize what had to be done and the balls to actually do it. With a dull Leatherman I think too. Sawed and hacked through all of the tissues and tendons he could then yanked sideways and snapped the bone to free himself. That's one stone cold bad ass.

Alan/Jon- I like my Redding S type dies too but they're all I know since they're all I've used. I took the advice from 'Lito and FCS (does he post here anymore?) on that one.

Pat II- That's right I forgot you used to live out here and escaped. The match has changed alot now with more challenging courses of fire. More changes are on the way with an additional match of steel only targets out to 500 METERS on the metallic silhouette range. You ever think about coming back to visit?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:37:24 (ZULU)

LTChip: "Is that it?"

Dunno. We'll see. Whatever happens, I'm killing game.

MarkS: Yep. Stone cold.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:41:37 (ZULU)

Just came across this. I wonder if they understand there are prepared and proud infidels even around San Francisco. Nothing would bring and end to their existence faster IMO.

http://editorials.arrivenet.com/society/article.php/11383.html

Wish I could go on an out of state hunt. Not any time in the near future though.

Can't wait for the weekend to shoot again but the salmon are showing up in good numbers with hearty appetites from what I've been told. I don't think she's going to be seeing much of me this weekend...

I was all pissed off coming home from the job today. Then I pull up and see one of those familiar McMillan stocks boxes on the porch waiting for me and life is good again :)

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:55:57 (ZULU)

I read that article posted by MarcS. You know what REALLY pissed me off, one of those douchebags was named Charley Hunt. I have an idea what that's gonna do when I go to buy my next gun. Geez. Can I just cap him myself?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 06:22:22 (ZULU)

From the article MarcS posted....

"Once these Allah devotees get hold, they don’t stop. Street fighting never ends."

This sentence takes the whole article right off the deep end.

To sum it up.... The rest of the world is still trying to adjust to just how violent and aggressive the US responded to 9/11. Credibly attacking the US in this day and age is "darwinian stupid"...the absolute worst outcome for a terrorist's cause would be for the US to feel genuinely threatened.

medicjim
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 12:36:45 (ZULU)

Lito,

Will do on the cases,Now I just have to wait the rifle to be done.I droped it off monday,it should be done at the end of may.

Thanks Jon

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 14:23:24 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Regarding beacons. It seems like a good idea. I'd like to learn more about them, and how well they work, etc..

The guy who got caught in a canyon and cut his hand off.... he lives in Boulder. He was hiking in a narrow, deep, water-cut, sandstone canyon. A rescue team could've walked right over him, and not seen him. The problem I have with him, he violated some basic rules. He was alone, he didn't tell anyone where he was going, when to expect his return, and was doing some dangerous climbing on unstable rock.

He was one step away from a Darwin award.

Duman
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 15:35:40 (ZULU)

Lito,

I do know the loaded round was .341.Also do you have to use a sizing lube if you get the Carbide bushing?

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 15:50:28 (ZULU)

Click my name for info on renting PLBs.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 17:45:49 (ZULU)

Travis,

I just viewed the link that showed the tank running over the AK's. I thought I saw a few K98's, and PPsH' too. The AK's probably still work. Maybe they were just trying to improve the accuracy?

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 18:44:26 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

I'll need to know what the fired case neck dia is. If you have a tight neck, you need a different bushing than if you have a loose neck.

And you don't need to use lube with the "carbide" bushing - actually it's TiN (Titanium Nitride) but it workie the same.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 19:04:23 (ZULU)

Bravo, my E-mail dumped you into the spam folder, package is enroute ETA Monday-Tuesday. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 19:33:51 (ZULU)

A call to arms,

One of our own, our Piggie Pete who is of high esteem in most civilised worlds, is taking a drubbing on the UK forums, and has been dealt a severe blow as of late, in such that he has been kicked off a newly made website within the week of it's opening. There seems to be a fraternity of wannabe know it all's who have it in for our Piggie Pete. It's about time we paid our respects back to the lad, en masse.

Here's the site, an invision board:

www.ukvarminting.com

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 01:47:33 (ZULU)

JR -

OK, so I registered, but now it says that the administrators have to check out my account before they can "validate" my membership! WTF?

If I do get through their hoops what forums do I find the brouhaha concerning Piggy Pete?

ALAN
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 02:58:19 (ZULU)

'Lito- I thought that determining the bushing size was done by measuring the neck diameter of a LOADED round then subtracting 2 thou. I was told this would give proper neck tension and that a fired neck dimension didn't matter. I don't remember where I got this but I think it was from a product description in a catalog somewhere.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 04:24:12 (ZULU)

Duman: "The problem I have with him, he violated some basic rules. He was alone, he didn't tell anyone where he was going, when to expect his return, and was doing some dangerous climbing on unstable rock."

I do the first three several times a year. Not that big of a deal. Kids (30 and below) think they are bullet proof. Most of us did things that stupid and walked away without a scratch. This board is full of guys who, when they were kids, said, "F*** it. I'm going in to be an Infantry Paratrooper (or Marine Infantryman, or Army Ranger or something equally insane)". Guys like that will blow off all four of those rules before breakfast and never give it a second thought.

In any case, I can't imagine having the guts it takes cut your own arm off with a pocket knife.

Sheer balls.

CDC'
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 04:47:05 (ZULU)

MarkS: Click my name for Redding's instructions.

CDC'
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 10:33:24 (ZULU)

MarcS -

What CDC says!

Measuring a loaded round and subtracting .002" will work under ideal conditions, but does not take oversize factory chambers with large neck diameters into considerartion, nor does it consider differences in "springback" due to variations in brass.

ALAN
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 15:38:26 (ZULU)

Well,

If you go to Accessories, Brugger and Thommett moderator thread, this is the thread which Pete had made his first and only post, which has been subsequently deleted. There was nothing wrong with his post, in fact it was quite informative on various types of moderators he has used and tested over the years. There seems to be this fraternity of folk, who seem to want to put pete out of the picture in this country. If this was a one-off, I wouldn't have taken so much notice perhaps. But this is the 3d site in 3 uk sites I've visited where the same bunch of arseholes blatantly go after him, and Pete does not deserve that sort of treatment. JonB, Sgreadan, has made a statement on page 2, which pretty much sums up the bullshit Pete has gone thru on the UK forums..Jon, as you know isn't one to stir up the pot, but I think he as well as I have had enough. I'll post it here before it gets deleted, for record's sake:

"I'll lay my cards on the table. I am a friend of Pete Lincoln's and proud to say as much. I first met him on the forums about 6 years ago and we've been close friends ever since. I came to this board on Pete's recommendation (and that of JR's) who thought this site could be just what the UK shooting community needed. Until then I had stayed more or less on the US forums because I had found nothing from this country to compare to the broad knowledge base and quality information found on the good US sites.

As I usually do, I read much and posted little. I was aware before I came on here that there were a small crowd with axes to grind for Pete, and when I saw them post I stood back and watched. I wasn't here to cause trouble, after all I had only been here 5 minutes and I've noted some people on this board seem to equate date of registration and number of posts to experience and knowledge. So I've added a comment or 2, trying not to get drawn in, and besides Pete’s big enough and ugly enough to look after himself (most of the time).

I wanted to see a forum where people of like minds could come to get advice, learn something from each other and create friendships. I had hoped that this would become a great forum, and for a forum to be truly great it needs the contribution of people with a lot of knowledge and experience. On sites where there are such people they can be used to call BS on someone offering poor advice or just talking plain rubbish, they help newcomers with good advice and take the time and effort to pass on their help. They give a site it’s character and credibility. These people are usually few, but the role they play is huge. Pete is one of those people. I have learnt a great deal from him and he has gone out of his way to help me, often at inconvenience to himself. I agree with B-B, the site is poorer without him.

For my part, I've been involved with professional deer and wildlife management for over 10 years. I have either shot myself, or been eye-witness to, the culling of more deer over those years than the majority of members on this site could hope to be involved with in a lifetime. As you may guess I've picked up a thing or 2 over that period and it’s always been my philosophy to help people when I can. I don't for one minute imagine I'm one of the forum gurus I mentioned above, I don't post enough for a start, but I had hoped that as time went on I would be able to contribute something back to the forum when people needed advice on deer, kit for stalking, working dogs, carcase handling, whatever. Unfortunately that will never be, because I don't want any part of a forum that would boot Pete. I think I can be pretty sure when I say I know Pete better than any other person on this board, and he does not deserve this treatment.

Pete's only mistake I can see was the giving of estimated delivery times on his work. If he had done what the rest of the quality rifle builders do and refused to give times, estimated or otherwise, most of the shit Pete found himself in wouldn't have happened (go place an order with Callum Ferguson or Dave Tooley and ask 'how long?'). But surely he can be excused this, as he was new to the world of commercial custom rifle building and has since learnt his lesson the hard way.

So fellas, I bid you goodbye, and I hope you enjoy a site dominated by a few mutually masturbating keyboard commandos who wouldn't know their arse from their tit when compared to the likes of Pete.

Jon"

I contemplated jacking it in myself, but then thought it wouldn't be fair to Pete to let this nonsense about him and his company go unchecked. I'm not about to initiate a conflict, but you can sure bet will be in the middle of it if they shame his name again.

As well, I have a sneaking suspicion those who have had their first scalp, won't look too far to find Pete's supporters and go after them as well.

Take care,

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 17:48:40 (ZULU)

Update:

from the admin:

"Pete and i have actually come to a mutual agreement and he is now back on the board.He is not currently using hos roedale name though."

So that is a start. the site is pretty fresh yet, and hopefully with a few more knowledgeable contributors, it can remain fair minded. So the 'call to arms' as it may, can stand down, as the Yorkshireman has his place back.

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 19:18:28 (ZULU)

JR,

Thanks for the update. Tell Pete to come home (here). Unless, of course, "....as the Yorkshireman has his place back" includes sheep. :8-p

Duman
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 19:49:56 (ZULU)

Just got a text off Pete saying he's back on. My advice was f**k 'em! To much pride and too many principles may be, thats why I get shit at work, but then I have to look at my self in the mirror.

I still have my eyes on you folks. The Roster is still THE place for no nonsense, BS free gun talk.

Back to lurk

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley
UK - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 19:58:33 (ZULU)

Guys,

Re: Forums. Good ones are few and far between. Seems like idiots are taking most of them over. A lot of them have admins with idiot buddies who hound anyone who doesn't share their opinions, right or wrong.

Anyone with experience on an XM8? I was kinda thinking of looking at getting one, further down the line. Opinions?

Also, got an E-mail form the NRA yesterday. Apparently, up in Greensburg, Ks., where they recently had a tornado flatten everything but the grain elevator, the cops were confiscating guns. Apparently, you're not allowed to keep looters from stealing what little you have left! The REALLY funny part is, a cop and some national guardsmen, all in uniform were jailed for looting. Real damn funny. I guess it's a good thing the constitution was written on smooth paper. What a bunch of horseshit.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 22:15:19 (ZULU)

Jon -

It's good to see that you're still alive :)

Pull up a barstool and join in more often!

Travis -

They're made of a type of plastic that melts when they get hot. That's one of the reasons that they failed miserably at the military acceptance trials a while back.

ALAN
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 23:03:24 (ZULU)

Allrighty.. I'm Home !!

Ha.. Jon and JR, i'm touched by your support.

And Jon your right. F$%^ em. I share my knowledge for free, give discounts to board members and still take shit.

It all stems from jealousy on the one side.

The lapdogs of a couple of other gun dealers ( I wont call em riflesmiths) have taken it upon them selves trying thier best to talk bull, every rifle i sell is a rifle they dont and they dont like it. Especialy as they are charging a shed load more money, have no qualifications and no product liability insurance to back anything up. They know that they can't compete in the quality or value so they resort to underhand tactics.

Plus certain individuals who have nothing better to do than masterbate the key board as Jon put it and who realy need to be seen to by the head doctor and the men in white coats.

Unfortunately due to having a, how did the Queen put it " Annus Horribilis" last year i let a couple of things slip and have em something to bite at. Its litteraly about a half dozen divvits with agendas, but unfortunatly a lot of the UK market can't tell the difference

You know i some times cannot understand the mentality of the British, the UK market makes up about 10% of my turnover but 90% of the stress, but then we all know there are a lot of arseholes in the gun-hunting game in the UK. If it wasn't for the suppressor business and my patriotism i'd just say let the uk market sink itsself.

These idiots bitch on about delivery times, well i never promised anyone a delivery date, how can you when you where due rifle actions in last august from a certain manufacturer and they only just turn up now.!? I built and delivered 34 rifles last year, thats part time and with basicaly 5 months off due to health-parents health and other stuff. It would interest me how many the other uk smiths made in the same time frame and how much of a time garantie anyone else gives.

Anyway,

as things stand the rifle trade is roaring, planning permission is in for a full blown retail shop store type premises. ( I'll be selling wellington boots then Jon !!) I just bought 5 lathes. ( I know, i can only use 1 at once, i'll sell all the colchesters and the smaller weiler and keep the 2 bigger weilers) and as soon as the shop is built, i'm quitting flying space ships and going full time. I can't damn well wait. this 300mile drive to work is beginning to become boring and dangerouse, ive been doing it 8 years, the night shifts are also a pain in the ass. Got my own actions in production, delaer ship for a couple of outstanding accessories firms in the pipeline.

Anyway.

Good to be looking back on the roster.

like is said, yep back home,

cheers dudes Pete

Pete Lincoln
D - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 00:31:54 (ZULU)

MarcS: Aw stop it, you're making me blush!!! Seriously, thanks. I do try. Hardly get to check the roster more than a couple days a week so by the time I get to have a say in somefin, these guys usually have covered it. So not to be redundant I usually don't respond.

PatII: Still have that 300 WM. About 2200 rds down the Hart tube and still shoots great. BTW, I didn't build it, Hart barreled the Winchester action and I bedded it in the McMillan A2 stock, and did the trigger per 'Lito's instructions (Thanks Lito!) Also, whenever you wish to come back "inside the wall" you're welcome to bunk at my house. And our mutual bud "Stone" is here in my AO, just hard as hell to get a hold of that boy! Take care.

Joe Ducos
turlock, ca, USA - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 00:58:23 (ZULU)

MarkS...

>" thought that determining the bushing size was done by measuring the neck diameter of a LOADED round then subtracting 2 thou."<

Well.... yes and NO!!

These dies were developed "by" and "for" the benchrest crowd. These guys seat their bullets in finger tight - that is to say, in most of their rounds, you can pull the bullet out with two fingers. This is to eliminate neck tension as a variable. Typically, the bullet is seated long, and the final seating is done by the leade/throat as the loaded round is chambered. So they want the neck to be ~ 0.001" smaller than the bullet.

Note in the Redding notes that CDC referenced...

... "Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet."

The phrase "PROPER PRESS FIT" is what the 0.001" to 0.002" will give you.

But for us bums, we will have actions filled with powder and bullets stuck in the throats of our riffles in a match if we load ammo like that, and sure as hell, it won't feed from a magazine.

Hell, the damn rounds will come apart in out pockets.

So we want more neck grip... 4 to 6 thou under bullet dia is a good place to be.

The other part is this.

>" It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010"."<

Guess who brought it to "their attention" ;))

About 3 or 4 years ago, I discovered that if the fired neck was much larger, then the sized neck could wind up smaller than the bushing... so you could run a 0.348" neck in a 0.338" bushing and come up with a 0.334" neck, and the bushing would rattle on the neck...

It's a long story and took a bit of effort to understand what was happening.

Duman...

I have been teaching Ruggus Rattus about survival for a while... what to take (space blanket, FRS or GMRS radio with 20 AA bats and how to call and listen on the quarter hours, and not to waste batteries. Take a Military signal mirror, two Bic lighters, small container of Kerosene, GPS with "backtrack" and "Go home", etc.

This stuff even for a day hike - plus where he is going, when he is coming back... etc.

Grown experienced woodsman and climbers have died for the want of this small kit.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 01:30:50 (ZULU)

Pablo and MarkS: If you think that link was bad, click my name for a peek into case prep Hell. If I had to do all this to LAPUA(!) brass I'd sell my sticks and take up needlepoint.

CDC'
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 03:45:31 (ZULU)

Thanks Pablo and CDC. That info explains some things I'll tell you about. This will be boring and useless to most if not all but here goes.

I'm shooting a Mod 70 based .260 right now that was built by an unknown AMU armorer. Don't know what kind of barrel it is but the chamber is HUGE. I got some loaded ammo to start with from a buddy and measured the necks. Then I ordered my dies and the guy on the phone at Sinclair says ok get a bushing .001 smaller than my measurement. I asked if he was sure about this because I thought it should be .002 smaller and he said no the "Reddings run a little tight". Huh? It's a specific measurement whaddya mean tight? Whatever that's what I got. The first piece of brass I ran into it stopped with less than half of the case inside. I had to force the hell out of it to go in and it actually polished the case where it contacted it to a beautiful shine. The neck was sized (and also polished) but not all the way down to the angle where the shoulder starts. That very small section of neck near the shoulder that was not sized had a very significant bulge that's instantly noticed when you look at it. I fire them, the bulge is gone, resize and it's back (when I use the same type of die on my GA Precision SCLE rifle I barely feel any contact at all, as if it's barely touching the brass at the end of the stroke). I did notice that the diameter of the necks after sizing was smaller than the size of the bushing and couldn't figure it out but ignored it.

I will measure the size of the fired case neck again since I forgot what it was. Maybe I need to resize in a two step process as described. That sounds like a pain in the ass though. Maybe I should send it to George to be rechambered? I think I'll order some more bushings in much smaller sizes too.

What's strange is that this rifle is such a tack driver. When I pulled the barrelled action out of the stock I was shocked. The bedding job looks like I did it. I mean terrible. Voids and wrinkles all over the place so bad it looks like he used a twinkies wrapper on the action for a release agent. That combined with the condition of the chamber would mean it doesn't shoot right? The few times I have done tests from the bench it has produced super tight bug holes of 1/4 moa and it was very consistent. I haven't shot it from the bench since I started loading my own but it seems like my reloads are working well enough to win if I don't have my head up my ass.

The load is 43.5 grains of H4350, 142 SMK, FED210M, RP brass and it gets 2,800 fps from a 28" barrel. I haven't checked where the seating depth is or how it relates to the leade I just matched my buddies ammo that I started with and ran with it.

Pete it's good to hear from you again I wish you had time to check in more often. I miss your late night pig hunting stories.

I just realized I've been lurking and hardly posting here for about 6 years or thereabouts. I've posted more in the last two weeks than all of that time combined. This is without a doubt the best site on the net for a rifleman to hang out in.

Thanks fellas,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 06:10:13 (ZULU)

Thanks Alan, I might just do that.

Lito,

As a Redding die user, thanks for the info. Heres a few figures for you. On my 330WM using Lapua brass the fired case necks are coming out at 0.340", I'm using a 0.334" bushing and the sized necks are 0.332" - 0.333" and loaded rounds are 0.335" - 0.336". What would you recommend? I've found with Lapua that the brass seems to have a hell of a grip. There is definate resistance when I seat bullets and I've remeasured OAL length on a round thats been shot over by 4 other rounds to check for movement of the bullet while in the mag (think from memory it had moved 0.001"). Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Travis,

You nailed the forum trouble right on the tippy top of the head. Thats exactly whats happening on the forum in question (hence my comment about them all pulling each others), and unfortunately for Pete, hes not in the 'in crowd'. Just had a thought. May be me, Pete and JR should start our own forum for the UK - hmmmm!

Hogs,

Any of you guys tried any insecticide treated clothing for ticks? We have a rep coming into work shortly selling the stuff and was wondering if any one had any comments. Ticks in my area are bad, and I've just been reading a report that Lyme is on the increase. Uggghhhh!! Makes my skin crawl thinking about the little bastards!

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
UK - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 12:52:26 (ZULU)

Jon,

My current understanding is...

The three product 'science based' ingredients you'll find here in the States for keeping bugs off you are: DEET, Permethrin and Sulfur. Permethrin is not suitable for direct skin application. One can also make the case that DEET is one scary chemical and although it is accepted practice to spray the stuff on skin, it may be unwise.

I have found that using a combination of permethrin applied to clothing (wrists, pant cuffs, belt area and shirt seam) the day before....and using DEET on my hat and general clothing exterior just before crawling about....well, it works for me. We have lots of ticks around here and lots of Lyme.

There is tons of hype and mis-information regarding this topic here... there are folks that swear by a product called Avon Skin-so-soft. I'm not so sure it actually does anything...it sure doesn't work on New Jersey mosquitos and ticks.

medicjim
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 15:03:19 (ZULU)

"Avon Skin-so-soft"

Urban myth - the bugs love the stuff - kinda like an appetizer.

It was covered on the TV show "Urban myths busted"

Jon Beardsley...

If your sized necks are 4 thou under the loaded dia, then you are fine.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 15:50:48 (ZULU)

Lito,

I also forgot to tell you that it is going to be a tight neck chamber.I mesured wrong,the loaded round mesures .337 and the smith said he is going to make the neck .005 over that.He also said that he might use a modified palma reamer,but he will get the throat cut for the 175SMK.

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 16:54:09 (ZULU)

Thanks for the replies guys.

Lito,

I ain't no Englishman I originate from the Valleys of South Wales. Tom Jones country ;-) Thanks again.

Jim,

Not sure if we can get permethrin here for personal use. The Forestry Commission used to use it on young trees by dipping. The lads doing it had to wear NBC type protective gear and have monthly blood tests. They don't use it any more as far as I'm aware. We do get it as a spot-on treatment for the dogs though. Not entirely happy with that. The stuff this bloke is coming to sell is factory impreganted clothing. Apparently kills ticks if they stay on the clothing too long (sounds like it could be permethrin or similar). Lasts x number of washes and so on. I heard from a lad that saw a demo, says he tips a hand full of ticks out of a pot onto a garment and they can be seen slowing down and eventually die. Can't remember the name of the garment maker off the top of my head though, but I had a feeling it was US or Canadian origin. Wondered what it would do to my nuts if I got a sweat on ;-)

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsely
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 17:04:33 (ZULU)

Marcs,

Thats right this is the best spot.You can learn alot from these guys.

The rifle that is making the buldge do you have to seat the bullet out more?The are alot of posts about this on 6mmbr.com.

jon

Jon Kujawa
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 17:59:15 (ZULU)

Click for the BEST bug spray I've ever found. All natural and organic. I can stand in a cloud of mosquitos and not get bit. It ROCKS! Don't smell bad, either. Kinda minty. The wife even likes the smell, and she don't like anything! This stuff also lasts longer than anything else I've tried. Seems to work well on all the creepy crawlies, including ticks. Kinda takes the fun outta takin' your woman out to the woods, though. I kinda like checking her for ticks! The next best stuff is called pyranha (sp?) it's about as good, but costs more.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 18:15:24 (ZULU)

JonB, Pete,

Well, the roach motel is always open, and the bar is always servin..When in doubt, come home to the Roach Motel.

Pete,

On a lot of forums, its not what you say, but how many times you have said 'something'. Irrelevant posturing, back slapping, and a bit of the how's your father in-out in-out wink wink. And to me that does not elevate a 'member' to patron status here. It's what you know, and what you have done before you gain my respect concerning riflecraft. The UK forums, well, the ones I've visited can be so fraternally based they are missing the point of discussion all together. It's like watching inbreeding, nothing advances. I had hoped the new forum would be different. We shall see.

'Lito,

Skin so soft does work for midges here. Don't know if you have seen a Kielder midge, but they are like a gnat with 4 inch vampire fangs, thirsty for all your blood, give me mosquitoes any day over the kielder midge. You know the guys who cover themselves in bees? doesn't take long to look like that in midges up here..The spray doesn't work, but the rub on oil form that leaves you glistening does. It definitely works for midges, but doesn't do you much good in the field if you're smelling of a french beaudoir(sp)....And you catch some hell in the pub after..

English JonB,

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 18:41:09 (ZULU)

My father and I went thru Lymes treatment last fall,

Couple things about Lymes...It can take up to 6 weeks for the

body to develop the antigens needed to get a positive reading on the

blood test.Not everybody developes the bulls eye rash...and once ya test positive for it,You will always test positive...

I dont remember how long the tick has to be on you for it to transfer the bacteria that is responsible, but know it is more than 8 hours.So if ya notice it(tick) right away ya might not get it(Lymes).The antibiotic used in treatment is relatively cheap...10 bucks or so.

And its taken for 2 weeks.Limit dairy intake...It blocks the body from absorbing the antibiotics.

On deet based products...generally anything over 25% is a waste of money.And will make you very uncomfortable.It burns.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 19:54:04 (ZULU)

Travis,

Is that stuff safe for human use? I mean.... 'valleyvet.com' ??

Duman
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 19:56:25 (ZULU)

UnPat -

"...generally anything over 25% is a waste of money. And it will make you very uncomfortable. It burns".

I live on the western slope of the Rockies in Colorado, where the West Nile Virus mosquito has become a very real public health threat over the last few years. We've had several deaths in this county attributed to West Nile, so everyone around here with a brain in his head who spends time outdoors during the season is very serious about protection.

Here's what I learned about DEET that is opposite to what you just posted -

The higher the concentration of DEET, the longer it affords protection. A 5% concentrate is normally good for a 90 minute exposure, while a 100% concentration averages about 10 hours. Use a concentration that is appropriate to your planned time outdoors. So if you're out camping or hunting use a high enough concentration to enable you to get a good nights sleep without worry.

A high quality DEET product doesn't feel uncomfortable when used on normal skin, nor does it burn when applied. I use a pump spray product by Sawyer called MAX DEET Low Odor Formula which is 100% DEET, and it causes no discomfort for me or my wife when applied to the skin and used on a daily basis. Just don't rub it in your eyes ;)

Also, DEET is not recommended to be sprayed on clothing or sleeping bags, etc. DEET doesn't kill insects, it is a repellant, and as such repels a mosquito for about three hours before he'll be able to return to the source. Sort of a 'time out' period where he won't want to come back around you.

See www.deetonline.org for the FAQ's

ALAN
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 20:50:20 (ZULU)

Support for my comments on DEET

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/deet-ext.html

extracted from the above link ..."Deet is absorbed promptly from the skin and distributed to all organs including the brain and the fetus"

This is enough to convince me that it works better for me if I keep it on my clothes and off my skin.

medicjim
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 21:54:38 (ZULU)

medicjim -

Many things that we get or put on our skin become absorbed by our internal organs. The question is, how does DEET effect the organs that absorb it?

I wouldn't be a great supporter of the stuff, but it's the only thing that I've found that works reliably for me. Otherwise, it's stay indoors for a long portion of the day about five months out of the year. Or perhaps move to the city :((((

ALAN
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 22:59:30 (ZULU)

Permethrin work wonders. There are several products that can be sprayed on clothing and when dry, will last about 6 weeks. The first time I used it, I noticed a tick just below my waist heading upwards with evident bloodlust. About the time I thought that the spray wasn't worth anything, the tick stiffened, quivered and dropped dead.

WR Moore
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 23:58:57 (ZULU)

Alan - Where is the hell on earth that you live in...bugs sound really bad there....

medicjim
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 02:12:40 (ZULU)

Alan,

Guess that'll teach me to stay away from the cheap stuff.

I bought some 100% stuff from Farm&Barn...dont remember the name on the enviromentally friendly aerosol can.I didnt recognize the brand name but seen it said it was 100% so figured it had to be good.

I sprayed liberally into palm of hand,rubbed hands together and applied to neck and insides of upper arms.If a little is good,then more is better.

And did a general body fog/spray.After a few minutes it felt like a zippo had leaked onto the upper arm and neck area.Where it was applied to clothed areas it didnt bother me.

It may have been the quality of the product,I may have sensitive skin,

and I may have used the product in a manner other than intended or a combination of.I do know that if I use 25% in the same areas it doesnt burn and costs a bit less.

We have West Nile also..but not to the extreme you do..21 cases or so

in my state.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 02:35:07 (ZULU)

National and State Maps for West Nile Virus.

http://diseasemaps.usgs.gov/

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 02:40:14 (ZULU)

Ken M: Are you still in?

CDC'
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 04:16:58 (ZULU)

medicjim -

Where do I live?

In Mesa County, Colorado, about three hundred feet above the Colorado river, on the benches of the Grand Mesa which is said to be the worlds largest and highest (10,000 ft elev.) flat top mountain.

Go to the link that UnPat posted, click on West Nile Virus, then click on Colorado on the state selector found at the right upper part of the screen, when the CO state screen comes up look at the section with the number 38 (the reported human cases of West Nile) at the far western part of the state, right next to the Utah line. That's Mesa County.

Actually, this place is far from hell. Much farther from hell than New Jersey, for example:) Being right between the mountains and the high desert we have the normal types of insects found in both environments. Some of the unpleasant kind like the black widow, the brown recluse, several types of scorpions, centrepedes, ticks and unfortunately, mosquitos that carry the West Nile virus.

But the bugs here ain't nothin' when compared to states like South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana and the other hot and humid hell holes. Ducking for cover :)

One other thing - I've lived here over thirty years and have never laid eyes on a roach since I've been here. Can't say that for the northeast corridor, can ya? ;)

ALAN
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 04:42:20 (ZULU)

CDC- will post a repsonse at the other site.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 07:16:49 (ZULU)

All you guys should plan to spend your next vacation at Alan's house. He lives in a very nice place.

Alan: Are the roads still lined with fruit vendors in the fall? I used to eat the blood plums by the bucket. Delicious.

CDC'
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 10:53:51 (ZULU)

CDC -

Yes, the roads are still lined with fruit stands after the harvest. Peaches have become the big cash crop, with some early varieties ready in late July. Wine grapes are getting very popular, with fourteen wineries - complete with tasting rooms, the whole nine yards - in the immediate area. I live up on East Orchard Mesa, right in the middle of the orchards and vineyards.

All you Hawgs are welcome to stop by if you're in the area:))

ALAN
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 12:51:14 (ZULU)

Alan,

Where I live in New Jersey, we have no roach problem and bugs are only a significant problem for a month in late summer (I actually think west nile may have landed in the US here first, but seasonal effects limit it's manifestation)). I grow peaches, pears, apples, blueberries, strawberries, cherries, tomatoes, beans, cilantro, peas and corn on my two acre plot. The weather is pretty moderate due to my relative proximity to the coast. The offer goes two ways...I've always got some beer in the fridge for a roster hog.

medicjim
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 15:27:36 (ZULU)

CDC, I'm still coming. 15-21 OCT works for me. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 18:53:11 (ZULU)

Glad to hear it Ken. We are now 5 confirmed I think.

I cleaned up some of the old posts on the website leaving relevant posts.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 21:06:46 (ZULU)

Man, you're a buncha moaners! :-) The fast Zulu is now the right Zulu again. Bless Shaka!!

Marius

Marius
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 21:51:59 (ZULU)

Went shooting today. Got to the range late, around 1300 hrs. The Mirage was bad and could not see bullet hole at 300 yards. Of course I was shooting a 223 and that did not help. I was trying to get my zeros out to 500 for that gun. 300 just gave me fits since there was one other guy there shooting. There is no 400 yard line so I couldn't drive to the 100 yard line and shoot out of the bed of my truck due to the other shooter. Amazingly I got my 500 yard zero by guessing and was with in .25 MOA. I had shot once before with this gun at that distance so it was an educated guess. I shot only a three round group and it was pretty small. I haven't measured it but guessing it will be 1.5" 1.75". I was using 75 grain Hornady match bullets and 25.0 grains of Varget once fired WCC99 cases.

Was going to go horse back riding now but 75 yr old riding buddy said I was an idiot for not calling him yesterday. He has been riding all week and needs some rest. Can belive he needs a day off! Heck he's begining to act like a 76yr old.

Pete, Screw those dang retards. Stay here where you are welcome and appriciated.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 22:47:22 (ZULU)

Yeah, Steve. It was a beautiful day to shoot. Nice and cool, low wind, partly cloudy. It sure would have been nice IF MY BUDDY HAD CALLED AND ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO GO. Spent the morning cleaning out the garage of my rent house, instead. Yup. Sure woulda been nice.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 23:28:35 (ZULU)

test to check zulu...

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 02:04:36 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve;

Sorry for the late reply. Regarding your post about building a Savage F-Class rifle in .260, I have done it. Mine is .260AI, 30 inch barrel with 1-8.6 twist. I use Remington brass, CCI BR2 primers, 139gr Lapua Scenars with 42.5gr H4350.

Most the matches I shoot are at 50ft ASL. From a 100 yard zero, I use 11.5MOA at 600y and 28MOA at 1000y.

I have been very pleased with it. I'm near the 1400 round mark and it shows. Still shoots good but not like it used to.

I went with the AI for two reasons. Case capacity with the longer bullets and less case stretch.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 02:46:06 (ZULU)

'Lito, e-mail inbound from Roster, no attachments.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 04:04:51 (ZULU)

Well just damn.............

Got my Remmy back with the 32" Lilja barrel on it. The friggin thing is too long for my drag bags and even for the hard cases I've got. I need a case at least 53" clear or I'm gonna have to take a hacksaw to the barrel. Any suggestions?

Caseless for my long tube, Bolt out!

Bolt
My tube is too long........., NC, - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 15:55:05 (ZULU)

Off Topic:

I was searching for an old Anita Bryant song (yes, I'm that old)

and ran across this.

http://inmycorner.blogspot.com/

Well worth reading.

Mark

P.S. Still looking for Earth Cookies! Not quite sure what to do if I

find one.

Mark Taylor
WBGV, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 16:19:19 (ZULU)

Duman,

Yup, it's safe. It's made from Citronella, tea tree oil, and other hippie crap. Way better for you than DEET, which attacks your liver. I don't suppose anyone here needs their liver damaged any further...... For a DEET product, Muskol has worked well for me.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 16:30:19 (ZULU)

Jody,

Thanks for the input. I still haven't decided what to do. Was looking to use that new Savage F class action and make a dedicated F-class gun. I will either do the 260AI or the 308 and just use 155 Lapua Scenars in it. Should come real close to the 260 but with less barrel wear. But still considering a 338 Lapua. Trying to contact all the long ranges and get an answer on if I can use it one thier ranges.

Chuck,

I woulda called but if was a spur of the moment thing. I had to go to Devine and since it was half way to the range I dropped in. After I got home I tweaked my Savages trigger. It's better now and I should be able to group better with it. I shot a nice 500 yard group. Only three shots but two are almost touching. The group meased 1.75". Oh if you thought the trip to the 500 line was messy you should see it now.

Travis,

In regards to your post on the loting in Kansas. That why we have a tough time hiring here. We have 1,000-1,200 take the test here and only take the top 100-200 scores. Then we start the weeding process. We end up with a class of 35-50 folks. We lose a few in trainimg too. We are 200 officers short with no damn way of catching up while maintaining our standards. And we still have the occasional idiot slip in. Hell we get paid very well, I don't know why folks don't come here from all over any more to test. We used to have a lot of out of state folks come here to test. But for some reason the numbers have declined. Click on my name if any one is interested. or go here http://www.sanantonio.gov/SAPD/?res=1024&ver=true

DirtySteve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 18:53:11 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Is a Starlight case long enough? I noticed they have some listed on the emporium for $125 plus shpping.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:29:39 (ZULU)

Bolt:

You're not the first fellow to paint himself into that corner :-)

Eagle and Blackhawk don't seem to make a production case that is large enough.

One of these might do the trick:

http://www.acecase.com/Sleeve-Type-String-Tie-Case-Fabric-p-16385.html

10x54" for scoped rifle.

Or this:

http://www.acecase.com/50-Caliber-AR-50-Case-Nylon-Large-p-16250.html

12x60" for AR50 and other .50 cal rifles.

Or this:

http://www.acecase.com/Sniper-Rifle-Case-with-Pocket-Nylon-p-16427.html

14.5x53"

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:35:35 (ZULU)

re: Starlight cases:

largest I found in a quick search was:

SC-061352FW -- Double rifle and scoped rifle case. Internal dimensions 6” D x 13” W x 52” L.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:39:50 (ZULU)

Bolt- 2 choices:

1. Install wheels & a trailer hitch.

2. Build your own. See if you can find some pix of the coffin the SMLE sniper rifle used to come in as a model.

WR Moore
Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:49:18 (ZULU)

Bolt;

There is a company somewhere that makes custom aluminum cases. Can't remember who but I considered it when I built my F-Class rifle. It has an OAL of 54 inches. It fits in the longest Starlight but I have to place it diagonally.

Dirty Steve;

Pascagoula, MS (where I shoot) allows .338 Lapua. No .50BMG though.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 23:53:30 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got an E-mail the other day from the NRA, saying that they were investigating reports of cops disarming citizens in Greensburg, Ks. after the tornado. On the local news, these reports were found to be false. Never got an e-mail from NRA saying that, but I figured I'd try to UN-ring the bell, FWIW. Cops there are having a hard enough time, what with having a cop and some soldiers looting while in uniform.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 00:08:55 (ZULU)

Boltster...

Fear not, Dudeski.

53" long and $41 bucks.

Can't beat that with a stick!!

http://www.acecase.com/Sniper-Rifle-Case-with-Pocket-Nylon-p-16427.html

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 01:18:14 (ZULU)

re: Greensburg, KS

from Michael Bane's Downrange TV forum:

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=328.msg2453;topicseen#new

May 11, 2007, 04:59:41 PM

"Watched the news last night out of Wichita (Ch 10) and according to the report emergency personnel where picking up firearms that were found in the debris and taking them to a locked response trailer. People missing guns could come down and pick them up if they could describe them or had a serial number. Owners of missing firearms were shown on TV getting their firearms back. The firearms were only picked up to prevent looters from running off with them or from further damage of being left out in the weather."

Another member posted:

"This is why I have copies of my SN at a couple of different secure locations."

(To facilitate proving ownership).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 01:22:56 (ZULU)

I have two cases made by these folks, fine cases...

http://www.icc-case.com/

Sharon

Edited to add link...

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 03:20:29 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Star Case

http://www.starcase.com/

ProCase

http://www.procases.com/?gclid=CK-XwP_jjIwCFRI7ZQodTCVzAg

GemStar

http://www.gemstarmfg.com/

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 05:10:31 (ZULU)

Re: School shootings, etc.; CLICK

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 07:14:49 (ZULU)

Interestin reads Travis!

And the Liberal morons in my city wonder why I spend every free minute I can get squeazin a trigger.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 12:21:48 (ZULU)

Serial numbers: I have a text file with the serial numbers of everything I own which has a serial number or a VIN, including our passport numbers. Beside the copy in the PDA I carry, I mailed that file to myself at two web-based email services and stored the file, which can then be accessed from any computer with an Internet connection.

I also do the same with credit card numbers and contact information, but the numbers are manually encrypted.

It may one day be handy to be able to provide those numbers if other documentation is not present for whatever reason.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 13:22:58 (ZULU)

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Lindy mentioned this a few years back and I immediately copied his idea (with 256 bit encryption)...damn smart man!

medicjim
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 14:19:01 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thats pretty smart. I have all my gun serial numbers saved on my computer. Then a printed page stored in a file then a list stored of a disc. I don't save credit card info. I aint never lost a wallet in 45 years. That being said any bets on me losing it this week? Seems thats the way it happens. Plus I don't trust having that info saved any where. I also shred all my mail that has anything except my address on it. I'm gunna get a bigger shreder and shred all my mail even junk mail.

I need to add one gun to the list. I also put on the list where they went when I got rid of them. I keep those on the list for about 5 years.

Dirty Steve.........

It not that I'm paraniod, it's just that everyone is out to get me.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 18:08:38 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I know your son is older and you live further west...you did however come to mind due to the nickname....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272074,00.html

medicjim
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 18:25:02 (ZULU)

If you want to become "fighting fit" in 3 15 minute workouts per week, warm up for 5 minutes, do the "Tabata fight gone bad" routine at the bottom right of the attached link, then warm down for five minutes. Do only one round of eight exercises, but go "all out". During the active phase, your pulse should be 90-95% of your max.

Aerobic capacity increases greater than 6 60 minute runs, improvement in anerobic capacity and fat loss are off the charts.

The research has been done. This is not bullshit.

Get a stress test or you are at a very real risk of dying.

(Edited to add: Google "Tabata Protocol" for further information.)

CDC'
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 18:48:32 (ZULU)

CDC & Lt. Chip, I am still in, just have been really busy with work and family stuff. I am climbing Mt. Shasta (14k feet) at the end of June for a cancer fundraising event so I working on making certain that I am not a weak link, not I just need to work on everything else!

Michael
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 19:11:27 (ZULU)

Michael: Cool! Now where's Joe?

CDC'
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 19:18:43 (ZULU)

CDC',

Good link, thanks.

Duman
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 22:46:21 (ZULU)

re: serial numbers

Alas, I don't need to record the serial numbers of my firearms in case I need to claim them from the authorities. In Canada we have firearm registration {sigh}.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 23:00:51 (ZULU)

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