Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 2007

Bravo,

No sweat. Whenver you get freed up.

Patt II
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 01:46:33 (ZULU)

Sarge-

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

CDC-

I didn't have any flyers at all that day that I could tell. Every single shot hit the precise point that I called it for when I could see it on paper. Many were on steel so I couldn't tell on the hits but my return to target was so quick that I could see the misses from the impact in the dirt. Not the actual moment of impact obviously but the popped out dirt and dust ball. They were right on the money for where I called them and that felt pretty good. I just hate having an unexplainable "why the hell did it go there" shot. My rifle is such a tack driver that I'll always know it's something I did and need to figure out. I found all of the preshot mental checklist discussion helpful. I dry fired through it all several hundred times including in the hotel room the night before the match when I was half asleep at midnight (she says I'm obsessed and ridiculous). This rifle shoots a little better than my SCLE but it's a little bit more sensitive to technique. Maybe that's because the barrel is lighter I don't know.

Now I have to carry this momentum through next weekend for the monthly Sacramento match, and more importantly, into the big two day match at the end of May. I think the prize table is around 20 or 30 thousand dollars worth of gear right now. Only bad news is Mike Miller will be shooting there too LOL!

Mike I'm glad your shop wasn't damaged. This changes my commute coming home but I can still take the 580 into the city in the mornings. I just have to divert and go through Oakland streets by Jack London Square on the way home. It wasn't too bad today but alot of people took alternate modes of travel. I start early and I'm on the job by 6:00 am then leave by 2:30 or 3:00 usually so I beat most of the rush.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. bay area , CA, - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:01:23 (ZULU)

Bravo: The tip on "dragging wood" was Lindy's.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:20:35 (ZULU)

>>Anyone with experience with the AR30?<<

Bravo,

Go back to the Badlands website (forum) and ask Calvin. He's had his for a while now. I got to shoot it before the Phase I class in 05. Verry impressive.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:46:14 (ZULU)

To All: Thanks for all the information on the 6.8 and 6.5 rounds and barrels. Now I'm not sure what I want. I'll figure it out soon adn when I get it put together I'll give you a report. I am looking for a long barrel so it will give the powder tiem to burn and get me a few more FPS. I'll check out all the pros and cons. PS I like my old winchester .270 for shooting deer sized game but then I like my .25 wssm also. It'll take some serious thought and number crunching to make the decision. Also ammo availability will weigh in heavily also.

Once again, Thanks All and post any more info/sites you know about.

Jeff Cooper
Memphis, Tn, - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 04:56:37 (ZULU)

Click.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:51:03 (ZULU)

Mark S: "I dry fired through it all several hundred times including in the hotel room the night before the match when I was half asleep at midnight (she says I'm obsessed and ridiculous)."

As you go to sleep, visualize every step in the sequence. If you have trouble visualizing a step, you haven't mastered that step. All this may seem obsessive and ridiculous, but it really does help.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 13:41:27 (ZULU)

German software sucks swamp water.

Where's Pete Lincoln?

Duman
Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 22:51:51 (ZULU)

All - new winds blowing -- more good stuff in the future. Check out this announcement (abit crowded on the formatting - but):

For Media Release

April 30, 2007

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC

forms joint venture with Iron Brigade Armory

to develop line of custom ar rifle platforms.

New“Bushmaster Custom Shop” will also begin work on specialized

bolt action precision rifles for Law Enforcement and Military applications

Windham, Maine / Jacksonville, NC – Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC (Bushmaster) and Iron Brigade Armory, Ltd. (IBA) today announced the formation of Bushmaster Custom Shop by Iron Brigade (BMCS) - a new Joint Venture Company that will focus on premium AR rifle system solutions, and customized Tactical Precision bolt action rifle platforms, initially for Law Enforcement and Military applications.

The Joint Venture Company will have its Manufacturing and Business Development organization based in Jacksonville, NC with Norm Chandler Jr. as its CEO. Bushmaster will be the majority owner and will provide the initial funding for facilities and personnel. This venture is the marriage of two organizations that are dedicated to quality, accuracy and durability in quality firearms for their customers.

“The opportunity to work with IBA allows Bushmaster to extend our brand to the premium end of the AR15 market place with customized solutions at lower volumes than our Windham facilities can handle economically, and is something that our customer base is telling us is important in addressing their needs”, stated E. Scott Blackwell,

Bushmaster President and Chief Sales and Marketing officer.

Initially, BMCS will focus on custom AR15 platforms based on the .223 and 5.56 caliber ammunition,

with first products being available for sale in mid summer 2007. BMCS will also leverage the work done by Iron Brigade Armory and it’s legendary founder – weapons designer and sniper author LTC. (ret) Norm Chandler Sr. – to offer a number of tactical precision rifles later this year.

Said Norm Chandler Jr., “Our goal at Iron Brigade Armory has always been to produce and deliver the highest quality tactical and bolt action precision rifles for military, law enforcement, and select commercial customers.

This joint venture with Bushmaster provides us access to further expertise in the area of the AR15 platform, to leverage and develop into advanced custom solutions for our existing customer base and new customers around the world.”

BMCS’s customized solutions will be based on Bushmaster’s proven, quality AR platforms. Configurations

and accessories will be based upon customer’s needs, and Iron Brigade’s experience and recommendations.

The products will be sold and serviced through the BMCS facility in Jacksonville, NC.

999 Roosevelt Trail • P.O. Box 1479 • Windham, Maine 04062 • 207 892 3594 • (F) 207 892 2687 • info@bushmaster.com • www.bushmaster.com

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC is the leading supplier of AR15 type rifles in the United States for Consumer, Law Enforcement & Security/Safety applications. Headquartered in Windham, Maine with manufacturing facilities in Windham and Lake Havasu, Arizona, Bushmaster supplies both Aluminum and advanced Carbon Fiber based AR15 type rifles and accessories to its US customer base, as well as Law Enforcement, Security and Military customers in over 50 countries around the world.

For Media Release – Page 2

April 30, 2007

999 Roosevelt Trail • P.O. Box 1479 • Windham, Maine 04062 • 207 892 3594 • (F) 207 892 2687 • info@bushmaster.com • www.bushmaster.com

About Bushmaster (BFI)…

Formed in 1994 – IBA specializes in designing, producing and selling customized Sniper Weapon Systems (SWS) for Law Enforcement and Military applications. IBA’s focus is to provide field/combat reliable SWS that are capable of urban as well as long range operations. By constantly observing and testing

the newest technologies, IBA has been able to label their latest SWS, the XM-3, as the standard by which all future SWS will be based.

About Iron Brigade Armory (IBA)

For further information contact:

E. Scott Blackwell

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC

999 Roosevelt Trail

Windham, ME 04062

Tel.: 207-892-3594

Fax: 207-892-2687

Norm Chandler , Jr.

Iron Brigade Armory, Ltd.

100 Radcliffe Circle

Jacksonville, NC 28546

910-455-3834 Phone

910-346-1134 Fax

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 03:00:39 (ZULU)

Again; Anything I post about shooting isn't meant as a lecture. Most of you guys know this stuff and more.

Mark S's post stayed on my mind.

"I have good news and I have bad news."

"Okay, give me the good news."

"Mike Miller will be at the tac match."

"Now, what's the bad news?"

"Mike Miller will be at the tac match."

CDC'
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 04:03:38 (ZULU)

Very interesting news about Bushmaster and I.B.A. (Chandler) but it makes me wonder why no reference was made of the fact that both Bushmaster and Remington are part of the Cerebus Capital Partners group. Rumor has it that Remington/Bushmaster will now be competing with Colt and FNMI for US military M16/M4 contracts.

Also, does this mean that the giant, now known as "Big Green and Black", will swallow up I.B.A?

Interesting times ahead for those involved in this;)

ALAN
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 04:23:15 (ZULU)

Travis, I was a partial, but basically good person. But u knew that before I took the test right? HAHA.. Actually everyone I work with insults each other daily. So that question shgould have been thrown out.

I wonder how the Bushmaster deal will work out.

Dirty Steve........

dirty steve
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 04:59:39 (ZULU)

More legal poo...

Went to the deposition yesterday... and the 14" high stack of 1,800 pages did it. They looked at it and just gave up on that whole line of questioning. :))

I also found out that my son's new lawyer for this trial... is dirty, and working for the Ex :((

It's gonna be a long pull, and I'm now my confidence is not high.

This is a Goddamned roller coaster ride :(((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 09:42:20 (ZULU)

'lito -

Your "son's new lawyer"? Is he the court appointed lawyer who's supposed to be independent of you and your ex so he can best represent your son's interests?

And you find out that he's working for your ex? Isn't that conflict of interest? Most importantly, can you prove it?

That sucks!

Don't lose hope. We're all pulling for ya:)

ALAN
Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 14:27:57 (ZULU)

Bravo, the junior cuff and sling are on the way.

Marc, CDC not sure how to take either comment but with my luck the only thing I will win is one of the slings I donated.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 15:05:27 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

We don't insult each other. We just offer observations on looks, hygiene, lineage, etc. It's all meant in a constructive sense.

Oh, by the way, is that yer face, or did yer neck throw up?

OTW Badlands for four days of being flogged around by the Marquis de Sade (or, "Sad", depending on your point of view)for a tactical carbine course. Man, I'm getting too old for this stuff.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 15:30:48 (ZULU)

ALAN...

>"'lito -

Your "son's new lawyer"? Is he the court appointed lawyer who's supposed to be independent of you and your ex so he can best represent your son's interests?

And you find out that he's working for your ex? Isn't that conflict of interest? Most importantly, can you prove it?"<

He is a "she".

Here's the funny thing.

When I lost the first case, I spent four or five months trying to find out what happened, and how it was done. I knew it was a fix, but I didn't know how it was done, or what the connections were.

So after a while, I stating finding pieces and putting them together.

Then when this custody thingie started, I put the fixed trial aside to fight the battle in front of me.

In my state, the child's court appointed attorney and the guardian both come to the party by recommendation of the two parties attorneys. If they can't agree, then they both submit names, and the judge picks from the two lists. In Bravo's state, they are picked from a pool, and neither of the attorneys have any knowledge of who's going to be on it.

The first trial, the Ex's lawyer picked both, cuz mine couldn't find the girls room.

This time around, I got to pick both. That's a good thing.

Then the Ex's lawyer calls the child's attorney and tells her that it is pointless to take the case, cuz even if I win, my Ex will just comeback and file again, so it was pointless to take the case.

So she drops it.

So the Guardian says maybe, since she is a licensed attorney, wear both hats.

Now, all of a sudden, the ex's attorney says this is such a complicated case, that the child MUST have a separate attorney, and she Just happens to have one that will take the case.

That's how the Rat got his attorney.

She was at the deposition yesterday, and when the ex's attorney finished asking questions, my son's attorney picks it up and starts asking questions like she is trying to break my story. Then she spends about 45 minutes asking about what I have collected in evidence on the first case, what agencies I have been to, what they said, where am I in it, what evidence I have against the judge... this was her main push... and she had nothing to do with the first case.

They know that I didn't give up on the first case... and they found out a month or two ago that I am back on it... and now they are real concerned.

Nothing I can do to get rid of her... I'm hoping that she will follow the rules.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 16:50:59 (ZULU)

'Lito,

It sounds like the "fix" is still in play. In other words, the ex has two lawyers. Same as before. Just wear them down. Remember the positive things on your side. You listed those here a while back. It must be irritating as hell to have some "non-lawyer" guy like you to keep frustrating their evil little plans.

Some years back I had a legal problem with a guy that owned half of the county. It drove him screaming-meemy, F'ing nuts that a nobody like me could cause his so much misery for little or no cost to me.

I bet they curse your name to hell and gone after every court session.

Hang tough,

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 18:27:27 (ZULU)

Lito, Sounds like they are scared. Remember you are still representing yourself still when you are sitting in the "chair". You may still object to questioning, as irrelavent, badgering the witness, or other reasons. You should advise them that the case is under investigation by the State Police and the Attorney General(Or District Attorney which ever you contacted) and you can not comment on the investigation. They should contact him/them and request the evidence. The Carpet Bagger attorney may object to your answer but the judge may smile and say you are right. The judge is going to be easy on your wording of the cause for the objection.

You go man...... There is a booming cat population in your hood that needs you focused back on them.

Bolt, You hanging in there? My Dad fell of the wagon again and openly smokes due to his mom's recent death. He was fine till he was drug into the Probating of the will. He didn't want shit but was told he had to take something. My dad aint big on handling pressure. I must have got my bring it on mentality from mom or Doc Howes. Dad said I looked more like the doc than him.

No condolences needed on the passing of Grandma. She was not much of a mother to dad. She only called dad when something needed fixed. Not once did she call on his birthday. I spent darn little time with her. I met her 4 times in 45 yrs.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 2, 2007, at 18:29:54 (ZULU)

Mike M: Having the opportunity to pick up some pointers is good news. Having to shoot against you is bad news.

Pablo: Your legal hassles looks like a bleeding ulcer X 10. Sympathy isn't worth much, but you have mine.

CDC'
Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 02:52:03 (ZULU)

CDC- Exactly what I was thinking :) I'm sure Mike will win more than a sling.

I'm enjoying this .260 so much I think I'm going to have to rebarrel my SCLE rifle for this cart. The problem is I've only fired about 5,000 rounds through it and it still shoots half moa no problem. I guess then it will be officially dead since the original stock and scope are both gone. It's just not right to live without a .308 though so there might be a T.I.S. rifle in the future.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 03:33:59 (ZULU)

Just saying hello here....

I'm a newbie to the long-range thing; the farthest I've ever shot was around 500 yards. A couple of guys I know are trying to get me hooked on the 1000 yard sickness, so here I am. Thanks Joe...

LAK Supply
PRK, USA - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 06:50:11 (ZULU)

Another newbie sayin Hi....

Pat R.
Wi., US - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 19:39:55 (ZULU)

Pat R...

You need to be "Pat III", cuz we gots two Pats already.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 21:16:44 (ZULU)

Chuck,

I thought Steve's neck was just blowing a bubble. Did it burst?

Lito,

They say you can't beat a man that's in the right and keeps comin'. Hold fast.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 3, 2007, at 21:31:17 (ZULU)

"Pat R...

You need to be "Pat III", cuz we gots two Pats already."

'Lito,and all,

Any objections to P.C Pat?? The P.C. wouldnt mean politically correct either....It's more like Problem Child..:)))

Or Diesel Pat??

Pat 111 or the third reminds me too much of Charles Emerson Winchester the 3rd from Mash...:)

Awhile back I read your .17 Fireball was in jail...Were you able to get it released?

Yes...guilty of lurking.

CDC ...Really enjoyed the reads on trigger pull.

I know there other contributers to that send but

dont know who all to thank....It was a very good

read for a beginner.

UnPat for now.

Unnamed Pat
Wi, US - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 01:13:36 (ZULU)

"UnPat" workie for me!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 02:04:05 (ZULU)

UnPat: "CDC ...Really enjoyed the reads on trigger pull."

Thanks. I'm glad you got some use out of it.

CDC'
Friday, May 4, 2007, at 04:16:30 (ZULU)

OK gang a little help here: It's now time for RELOADING COUNTRY!

Have: LC 5.56 brass sized, trimmed, primed and ready to load.

Have: 62 gr generics of some kind, not pulls from the looks of them but even the gunshop owner couldn't tell me who made them.

DON'T Have: a good powder recipe for this load!

Hodgdon/Winchester data show W748 @ 25.5 grs. Further internet search, including the rifle data @ AR15.com wasn't/hasn't been much help, do have a post in the reloading section there that hasn't been responded to yet.

OK who has a good recipe for this set-up? Have about 250+ rds of this generic stuff so want to use it, don't like empty brass and unused bullets laying around. That must be the reason 200+ rounds of .308 AND another 200+ .223 got loaded today!

Anyway some one have a good load for the 62 gr??

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 07:19:44 (ZULU)

Sarge

My 20" DPMS likes 24.5 of H335 with those same components.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 11:13:43 (ZULU)

Sarge....The powder measure on my .223 dedicated Dillon RL550 has been set for 26 grains of Win.748 for years..Load 55 gr. Ballistic tips, Win. 55gr.FMJ, and 60gr. partitions all with this charge. Works for me!

outa here

markwell
the Alleghenies, WV, - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 12:52:31 (ZULU)

Hey Sarge,

I've used 25 gns of varget for 55 gn and 64 gn .223 fodder since it came out. Works good in all my stuff. I use LC brass alot to...

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 13:29:17 (ZULU)

UnPat...

>"Awhile back I read your .17 Fireball was in jail...Were you able to get it released?"<

Not yet... I'm paying over $600 for court transcripts this month, and I had to pay for 1,800 pages of legal poop to be copied (it worked... they can't sort it out ;).

I gots the money in an account that was in a whimpy stock brokerage firm that went TU. The state took over the assets, and they are holding about $1,000 in the state treasurer's "Lost property" account.

I am in the process of getting it back, but the process is slow. The Friggin state has the money, they knew my address and phone number when they took the account over from the broken stock firm... you think they would send a letter saying "We gots yo' dough, fill out these forms"???

NOoooooooooooooo. Not Connecticut. They say nothing, hoping that I will die and they can keep the friggin' money.

Remind me to tell you what I think about the Connecticut gubberment sometime :((

Anyway... I got most of the papers required, except the notarized letter from my great, great, great, great, grandmother. ;)

I ought to have it out some time soon... got no time to shoot right now anyway.

The ex and I both had to submit "Financial Affidavits" to the court about a motion that I have in front of the court... they have been stalling for 4 months. It's a simple 2 page form about income and expenses - the expenses are simple... total gross income, rent or mortgage, taxes, phone, transportation to work... that kind of shit.

She's a top of the line accountant that worked for the standards board that wrote the accounting standards for all the big companies (like Exxon) in the USA.

So she that good - good enough that given 30 days with the books, she could convince you that Enron was still a solid company.

So I file my little 2 pages with the court three weeks ago, and yesterday, I get a copy of her financial affidavit.

It's not on the court form... it's 8 pages long and written in such a convoluted way that the poor judge won't be able to understand it.

She's makin' a gross of $150,000 a year, lives in a free apartment, drives a 10 year old junky car, and this "masterpiece" makes it out that her expenses are $1,500 more a month than she makes.

It took me and Mary an hour just to figure it out.

BUT... in my state, it is a felony to present a false financial affidavit... in fact, it's two felonies. Perjury, and Tampering with evidence...

I gots my fingers crossed ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 14:26:50 (ZULU)

Lito,

Don't be sure the judge won't see it for what it is. A smoke screen and lie. He practiced law at one point. You may ask her if she is such a good finanical whiz why she is 1.5K in the whole every month and how does she make up for those losses. She would either have to show a growing Credit Card or line of credit debt. Plus I would ask the judge to see her 2006 tax forms. She may then petition to see yours too. But it would be a true indicator of her finances. OR request the judge make her submit the form provided by the court. Her being irresponsible with money should give you the upper hand I would think. Judge,"Hummm this guy has his ducks in order, she makes 150K a year and tells me she is broke and works in finance? Something aint right, and me thinks I know what it is. I find for the nice young man with the cat fur coat."

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 15:45:47 (ZULU)

Dirty Dudeski...

>"I find for the nice young man with the cat fur coat."<

You cracked me up - my first laugh of the day ;)))

Oh yeah.. I gots to tell you... "nice young man"... I'm older than dirt!

HA!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 15:51:29 (ZULU)

Lito,

"BUT... in my state, it is a felony to present a false financial affidavit... in fact, it's two felonies. Perjury, and Tampering with evidence..."

Did she have to sign this document and have itnotorized? Just wondering I would think she would have to have it notorized to be concidered a false financial affidavit. But I'm no lawyer but I have seen these slimey F*^$ monkeys in action. When I was new at my job they would try to screw with me. Twice on the stand was all it took for me to learn how to answer them and piss them off. Officer you state in your report that Joe Dirt bag was 15 to 20 feet from you. Is it possible he was 21 feet? No he was 15-20 feet a way. How far am I from you now between 3 feet and 25 feet. Thats a big distance, isn't it?. Sometimes I judge distance better than at other times(smile).

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:02:52 (ZULU)

'lito -

How old is the RR now?

I hate to say this, but with all of this legal ass-dragging going on could it be possible that he reaches the age where he is allowed by the court to make his own decision before you and the ex are done with your court battles?

Just thinkin' out loud!

ALAN
Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:12:41 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

Yes, it is notarized, and as such, it is legal evidence.

ALAN...

Ruggus Rattus is 15 + 10 mo. In 10 more mo, he can file a paper in the local court and walk out the door. At the rate that courts move, he's be in grad school before they get around to it.

But here's why I have to fight it now.

She filed (before me) a motion that I can never see or speak to the rat ever again ('til he's 18).

So if I pull out, she wins and I loose the rat.

Also... he has lost 2 years of school, and if I don't get him into another school, he's lost three.

And last, if I quit on the little booger, he would collapse.

If I loose, he can handle it, but if I quit, it would tell him that I didn't care... and he don't need that shit, and he would never trust me again... and I wouldn't blame him a bit.

So I'm in for the pound.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:29:07 (ZULU)

'lito

Understood!

ALAN
Friday, May 4, 2007, at 16:33:31 (ZULU)

"Dirty Steve,

If you do, as you stated, believe in the crap you posted the link to, YOU are the one with anti-social tendencies. YOU are the one that needs to hang up your gunbelt.

I agree that we need some cops that aren't afraid to crack a skull or two, but the citizenry is NOT your enemy. If they annoy you so much, get a rent a cop job guarding an empty warehouse at night."

Travis-- you are a humorless pot-stirrer. Get over yourself. If you don't like cops there's a reason for it. None of us owe you an explanation least of all Steve. If you can't shoulder some responsibility for society at least have the courtesy to STFU.

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 17:09:27 (ZULU)

Lito, I knew you were old. I remember once you talked about when dirt, still had that new dirt smell. HA double HA as Pat would say, not unPat. Just the judge I usually an older person.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 17:10:23 (ZULU)

Gentlemen: Are Burris optics of the tactical pattern worth the

bother? If the budget route does not seem practical it appears

that a 401K loan may be in order. I appreciate my Charles Hunt's

candor on the matter.The matter of money aside, the other problem

is power of the scope. I love fixed power scopes and am sure that

the Burris is a wonderful work of glass. That being said I reside

in the western Ozarks were the terrain is well folliaged. Yes

there are certainly those shots to be made at 800+ meters and more.

Its those close shots that are more often than not, say 25 to 100

meters. It is the ability to crank down the power and of course

mechanical repeatability that is important in this part of the

world.

Jerry Davis
Rudy, AR, US - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 18:43:43 (ZULU)

Steve B,

Thanks, but Travis and I have made up. We are all trying to play well together So JoeM., will come back and maybe YoteBait too. As far as his comment about my neck blowing a bubble that didn't burst. I just couldn't think of a witty retort that could top it. I was going to say, "It wasn't my neck he was looking at. It was my butt. I need to see the doctor about my hemriods." But that really would do me any good would it. Ha

Unclean Steve..........

Oh, No postings from Bolt. I hope he is winning his fight with cigarettes. Bolt if you are there give us a sit-rep.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 20:33:01 (ZULU)

Lito, I saw this as a guys signature line on Savage shooter. Thought you might find it funny. "A cat almost always blinks when hit in the head with a ball peen hammer!"

Oh, I'm off today and doing laundry in case someone wonders why I have so much time today.

Dirty Steve............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 20:56:10 (ZULU)

Jerry Davis.

I don't recall anyone thinking Burris scopes were too great.

If your ranges are from 25 yds to 600, you might consider a 3.5 to 10x

A 10x scope at 25 yds can be a real handicap.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 4, 2007, at 22:22:38 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Anyone have the latest poop on HR1022? Hopefully, it will be DOA.

Pat II
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 00:00:26 (ZULU)

Steve Burris,

I realise that you're too ignorant to read an entire thread, in order to make certain that the issue is unresolved. But apparently, you're compelled to piss in other people's boot for no reason. Maybe you're off your meds., I don't know.

I never said I don't like cops, but yes, (DUH!) there WOULD be a reason for it if I didn't.

As for shouldering responsibility for society, WTF are YOU doing, besides barking at someone in another country about something you have no stake in? I suggest, if you really want to do a public service, you have yourself fixed, so you won't be dirtying up the gene pool, as we currently have more than enough recessive genes.

Toodles, Dickweed!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 03:00:37 (ZULU)

'Lito:

"6.8 SPC???

Anyone know why they chose the 6.8 (0.277" - aka 270) sized bullet, when there are few, if any, good 6.8 bullets, and tons of good 6.5 bullets??"

Supposedly the group that developed it tried a lot of different things starting with 6mm. However, they found the 6.8 to provide the best terminal effect. They weren't trying to develop more than 3-400 yard capability, so the 6.8 edged out the 6.5.

Check out Zak Smith's article on his site. Sorry I don't have the link handy.

Steve

I see Travis came up with another cogent and reasoned retort.

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA , USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 03:47:21 (ZULU)

Steve,

Guess JoeM will see anothe pie throwing contest. He left because they tied up to much bandwidth with out doing anyone any good.

6.8? I think a 260 AI would be a fun toy. I even went out and bought some 260 brass just waiting for an excuss to build one. Ok, actually I'm waiting of vet and feed bills to lighten up.

Any one hear from Insane lately? I was wondering if he shoots at Bayou but hasn't posted since his guy was shot.

Dirty Steve..............

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 03:56:11 (ZULU)

Unclean One-- Subject dropped, no pie in my hand. I'm just tired of the "cops suck" attitude prevalent on most gun boards now.

Steve

steve burris
NOVA, NOVA, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 04:11:12 (ZULU)

Jerry Davis,

I Had a Burris Variable Tact Mildot Illuminated in my hands at a in Wharehouse store,Counterperson couldnt locate box or spec sheet,also didnt have a MK4 L/R Leupold to put alongside it to compare like for like.They had a price tag on it of...$1,200.

I very gently laid it back on the counter pad.

Glass was ok...Illum adj ran from very dim at lowest to annoyingly

bright at highest set in the store light...

Is it worth the money?? That I cant answer...But I know I can get a MK4 L/R for roughly the same amount ....

Oh...And when I asked for a 2.5 in. or 4 in lens shade to fit a loopy VX 111 40 A/O the same counterperson said...Huh??A what???

'Lito

Are you still accepting contributions to the Free the FireBall Fund??

If so, can you e mail me the specs of where to and who to.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 05:14:25 (ZULU)

Sarge,

Put as much Varget in the case as you can without compressing the powder much. Fire for effect.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 05:41:41 (ZULU)

I have Burris, Leupold, and Unertl. I really like Burris scopes. I think $ for $ Burris is a good (FFII type) hunting scope, in the $350 or less price range. I also like their compact fixed power - have one on a .223 carbine. In the upper range scopes, they not there yet. But they are improving, and are as good as the new Redfield/Weaver lines.

Burris are "tough" scopes, and I think their light-gathering ability is good. But they are second or third tier, still. Hunting scopes. So they compete well against other $300 scopes. Or against the Leupold VX-II and VX-III lines. But not against the upper $ level.

JMNSHO.

Cheap is good. People are glad to find a bargain in the Super Sniper or Nikon scopes, but then snear at Burris, which is also pretty good value for the money in the under $400 market. (But then, I drive Fords.)

P. Hayden
United States - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 08:20:59 (ZULU)

Click. Ya gotta wonder if this stuff really works!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 08:58:32 (ZULU)

UnPat...

Thanks, but I never accepted money for the "Free the 17 Fireball" fund.

I'll get it in time - right now I don't have time to shoot...

... even if it's a mugger. Well, maybe a mugger ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 13:15:29 (ZULU)

The guys who come on occasionally and scold the board for not entertaining them properly confuse me.

It seems to me that, if a guy wanted this board to be better, he should post something good. If the guy particularly dislikes some thread, he could scroll past it. If he wanted more talk about some subject, he could just start talking about it.

CDC'
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 13:29:41 (ZULU)

I am, however, starting the "Buy a Cantankerous Old Geezer (me) a Swaro Spotter Fund". If you're short of cash, hock something.

CDC'
Aim TINY, NPA, follow through - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 13:34:06 (ZULU)

Help me, I've gone over to the Dark Side.

There is a .338LM being built for me as I write this.

I just got my first 200 rounds of Lapua brass the other day......they're BIG.

I've got a 500 count box of 300 grain SMKs on the way and am looking forward to the whole process of load development and dope collection.

Any advice would be appreciated. (Asside from, "Don't do it.")

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 14:02:11 (ZULU)

Kevin M -

Go for it! I want to have a .338 Lapua built for next season if everything goes according to plan. Got to recuperate from this years expenditures first, which were a new 6.5-284 on a Stiller TAC300/Bartlein/AICS and a 6.5x47 Lapua that I recently completed on a Savage FP10 action with a Border barrel in a McM A3 stock.

Please provide some details of your build. Are you using a brake? I sure would;)

Keep us posted on your progress.

CDC -

What you said about posting here!!!

ALAN
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 16:56:31 (ZULU)

Kevin- Wait 'till you hold a 300gr SMK in your hands. They are really big and heavy. A buddy of mine had George Gardner build a .338 Lapua for him a few years ago and it's very impressive. Fantastic drop and drift figures for long range then hits like a Mack truck when it gets there. Buy powder in bulk it eats alot.

Off to practice now for the Sac match tomorrow.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 17:20:38 (ZULU)

Ref: .338LM

It all started when Marty Bordson (of Badger Ord.) and I were talking.

I said, "If it were for all the marbles and you only had one shot, what would you use?"

Without hesitation Marty replied, "A .338 Lapua Magnum."

I agreed with his choice and then asked myself, "Why don't I have one of those?"

The project was launched.

The rifle is being built on a Remington Long Action M700 and will include an AI 2.0 chassis (desert tan) and a Badger FTE muzzle brake. I've left the chambering and barrel selection details up to Marty in deferrence to his experience with the .338LM.

I'm getting pretty stoked about this. I've got a S&B 4-16X waiting to put on it.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, US of A - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 18:38:43 (ZULU)

P Hayden

Agreed...Cheap is good.Cheap is very good.

<"(But then, I drive Fords.)">

A really small favor to ask ?? Please whisper the F-Word.:))

See,we have one of them too...And I know the thing can hear.

Weekdays are for pulling wrenches(Truck Mech)...Weekends are

for pulling triggers.Last weekend's trigger time was used to put

new tires on it,While under it I found the exhaust is starting to

leak,Shocks are wore out,needs a rear stabilizer kit and all four

brake pads gettin thin too...It never fails to amaze me how this

thing knows when I have free time/money to use for shooting or hunting and it decides the maintence it needs is more important.

Other half just returned from g/shopping...Need to go rub the dashboard and Say..."Your a good truck...Your a good Truck"

before something else needs to be fixed.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 19:14:18 (ZULU)

P. Hayden,

I started out with Burris scopes, and was always happy with the scope-for-the-money ratio. However, if you're hunting PDs in the desert, and are staring through the scope for hours each day, you really need to spend the $$$ and get a high end loopy, Swaro, or other high-end glass. The first few minutes through the glass won't tell you much about the scope, but at the end of a day in the desert, when your eyeball feels like a tennis-ball on fire, you'll know the difference.

A number of my relatives continue to work for "Fix Or Repair Daily", so please keep buying them.....

Duman
Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 19:51:03 (ZULU)

Hey, if you have the money, get the Leica.

If money was no object, we would not be talking about Burris (or Nikon or SuperSniper.)

And I only shoot paper, and it does not move between shots. It is always where it should be.

That reminds me, I need to change the oil in my Ford truck today.

P. Hayden
United States - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 20:52:24 (ZULU)

PatII said:"Last weekend's trigger time was used to put

new tires on it,While under it I found the exhaust is starting to

leak,Shocks are wore out,needs a rear stabilizer kit and all four

brake pads gettin thin too..."

Well, you damn fool, quit lookin' under there!

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 22:16:32 (ZULU)

Travis,

Read back aways and you'll see we have a new member: UnPat.

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 22:38:27 (ZULU)

Marius,

Is it just me or is Zulu time an hour fast?

Mark

Mark Taylor
WV, USA - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 22:44:38 (ZULU)

test

Marius -- you need to edit that dippy little script that does current time + 5 and change that 5 to a 4.

I have too many local clients that would complain if I set the webserver to straight zulu time---- sorry -- done tried it.... There are about 100 other sites on this machine as well....

New Family Member: Picked up a good deal on a like-new Remington 700 LH, VLS in .308 for my wife. She's tickled. Has a harris bipod and one of the 3x9 non-mildot leupold scopes on it. The Major's tickled to say the least :))

Calvin - we might be able to get her to break loose to help deal with those varmints :)

take care all,

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 23:28:31 (ZULU)

Andy's Dad,

I now have nug(gun) envy. I would like a 338 Lapua but I just wouldn't be able to shoot it well. I am a flincher on anything bigger than a 308 or 30-06. Even with a brake, a good brake, the concussion effect would rattle me. But more power to you. Well with this nug you will have ample power at your command.

I decided to keep my 223 Savage a 223. I reloaded for it today and noticed a little deformation around the bullets near the tip. From them getting seated. Thinking of tossing my RCBS seater for a Redding. Opinions? Not sure if the ring caused will affect accuracy but think it couldn't possibly help it.

Thinking of putting to gether a 260 Remington as a dedicated F-class gun. Should I go with the Ackly version or the regular. My thinking is with the AI version the brass wont stretch as much. Was planing on using on of Savages new single shot actions with a Shilen tube. The Savage Team recently won a bunch of medal shooting in Ireland with these new guns. Thought it may be a hoot to try.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 02:09:07 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

Very happy with my Redding seater dies.

I suspect any marks on a projectile aren't good news, if you can feel them with your fingers or by running a fingernail over it - even worse.

What kind of deformation does it take to create turbulence at Mach II?

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 03:43:39 (ZULU)

"Well, you damn fool, quit lookin' under there!"

Travis..Tried that.Didnt work.

Had to swear oath to replace bad parts,a steady diet of better fuel,

Weekly washes and of course lottsa dash rubs and "Your a good Truck".

:))

Magpul Precision Rifle Stocks??

Thinkin of puttin one on the DPMS.

UnPat
Wi, USA - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:39:44 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

what Rod said!! I have 2 RCBS "competition" seating dies and the runout triples from sized brass runout. The Reddings that replaced them are far superior. If I could just shoot up to the dies I'd be set.

Erik in Kodiak
Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 04:41:54 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve -

As far as seating dies go, I prefer the Forster Micrometer die. CDC and 'lito turned me on to them, and I think they're the best for the money. Forster will also fit the tip of the seater stem to your specific bullet if you send it to them with a bullet for a very slight charge.

But first - are you shooting a very compressed load of powder or is your neck tension too tight? Those things will cause marking or deformation of the bullet tip and you can cure either without buying a new seater die.

Build a heavy enough .338 Lapua with the right brake and the recoil isn't bad at all. It's the blast that'll get ya if your ear protection isn't up to snuff. And if you're shooting it at a crowded range the other shooters may have something to say about it too :(

ALAN
Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 13:13:18 (ZULU)

I bought three sets of the RCBS competition dies when they first came out - loved the beautiful solid Mahogany boxes with "RCBS" branded on the top.

The box was beautiful, the dies sucked. They have been catchin' dust for over 10 years.

Get the Forster or the Redding Comp seaters. Forster cost less and they are nicer people - you got a problem, they will go further than Redding.

Dirty... get the Ackely version. You have more powder space if you need it, but the best part is the case life - the 20 degree shoulder on the factory 243 causes case stretching like the rubber band man.

Ain't it amazing... after all these years, they haven't made an electric shaver that shaves as close as a blade???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 13:44:40 (ZULU)

Rod & Eric,

I can definately feel them. Some are worse than others. I loaded only 75 of them so I will try them at 500 next time I can get down to the longer range. I have a set of Reddings for my 308. Money well spent.

Alan,

We have a "Sportmans Whorehouse" I mean Warehouse, here in San Antonio and they stock the Reddings. I like not having to order and no wait. Both Forster and Redding have good reps for building good equipment.

They load is a compressed load. Full tank of Varget and a Hornady 75gr Bullet. The brass is quite old. So the necks are probably brittle and not very giving. In fact I am going to toss all my 223 brass that is not once fired. I have two 223 case ammo boxes filled with caes that are only once fired. I am just such a brass whore it is crazy. I got the once fored 223 cases for the effort of me tossing them in the truck.

Lito,

I was thinking case life would be better with the Ackly. How much flater shooting is this than the 308? And is there less wind drift. Guess I could play with a ballistics program.

I shave with a Merkur "Classic 1904" Safety Razor. It cost me about 27 bucks plus another 45 for a badger haired shaving brush. I get a better shave with this stuff. I use PRORASO Shaving Cream. Go here for shaving tips http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886845 and click on my name for equipment.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 16:27:47 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve.

The 260 AI will shoot a whoppin' lot flatter, and have about 2/3 the wind drift... but the price you pay is about 1/5th the barrel life.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 17:13:08 (ZULU)

Is the Remington .300 Ultra Mag and Remington .338 Ultra mag the same Length Action? I found a cheap Rem .300 ultra mag and want to get it just for the Action and have a Tube made up in .338 Rem ultra mag. My reloading books are prior to 2000 and I can't find specs for the Remington version of the Ultra mags. Any help? Thanks Keith

Keith Lucas
Bayville, nj, usa - Sunday, May 6, 2007, at 21:51:34 (ZULU)

Hawgs... just confirmed with Brian abit ago... Nielsen Kellerman - the makers of those fine Kestrel 2000, 3000, 4000, etc weather instruments -- arranged to send 99 of those Kestrel 4000's to American Snipers.org.

Kim and I met with Katie Horn (Kestrel Sales Manager at Nielsen Kellerman) back at the Shot Show earlier this year. With follow up emails, etc - Katie asked what they might do to help our folks out overseas. I told her that American Snipers was definitely the place to focus energy, gear, $$, etc...

Katie worked with her colleages @ N.K. and arranged for those 99 Kestrel 4000's to go to American Snipers.

Folks - if you are on the edge of purchasing one or more of those Kestrel weather instruments - please consider doing so.. They are definitely supporters of our troops.

Take care all --

Ken :)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 01:51:04 (ZULU)

My father has started running a 6mm WOA, which is the 6.8SPC necked down to 6mm and it's pretty slick for a AR15 action. 105 A-max loads only take 9.5MOA to get from 200yd to 600yd zero. Now the math works out to 3070fps, which I think is a bit much, haven't chrono'd yet, so I'm guessing the A-max's are shooting a bit flatter than the BC indicates.

The 6.8SPC was designed to do the most tissue damage within the range 0-300m from a 14.5" barrel and with an acceptable performance to 500m. Any more than that is just gravvy, and better served using supporting arms anyways.

Another good alternative to the 243 if barrel life is an issue is the 6-250 or varient thereof. 240 NMC is what I'm running. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 01:53:55 (ZULU)

Alan,

I tried the once fired cases and the problem went away. Well there is a ring but it is only a blemish on the surface not the ding in the jacket I had before.

Lito,

Barrel life is important. But I found an article on the 260 AI written about Terry Cross' gun. Click on my name to go to the article.

Ken M,

I looked in to the 6-250. The 260 AI is a little flater shooting. a 142 Grain bullet at 2900 should use oinly 26 minutes of elevation from a 100 yrd zero.

Anyone here have an AR-30 in 338 Laaapuuaa? How's it shoot? I know I said I was a flincher, but since I need to buy a factory rifle to write off next year. I could buy it and just not shoot it much if the blast/recoil (mainly blast with a brake on it) is too much.

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 03:04:15 (ZULU)

Advice/question: This weekend I managed to break my M4 stock by clearing a tight round (yep, banged it on the ground and the plastic around the pin shattered). Now, this was just a match, and it was the last round (empty and show clear), so nobody died....but I sure don't want to do that again. And, I still have a perfectly good buffer tube/spring/buffer for the carbine. I'd prefer to stay with the carbine length tube/buffer (MGI) and spring, and prefer the adjustable length of pull (lotsa clothes in Montana winters)...it workee well. But, the stock is another issue.

Worse comes to worse, I'll go to an A1 length fixed stock (if anyone makes 'em anymore), but then I'd have to buy new spring, tube and a rifle adapter from MGI?

Any advice on what might be more durable than the M4 stock?

Its of to the races with the FAL in the meantime.

SteveinButte
Butte, MT, USofA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 03:18:56 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve -

It sounds like too much neck tension was a large part of the problem. If you can get away from using a compressed load you'll probably get rid of those slight ring marks on the bullet, if they matter to you.

SteveinButte -

Was it a gennie M4 stock that you broke or one of the aftermarket copies? Do you have the Mil-Spec diameter extension tube or the aftermarket style which has a slightly larger od? Just curious.

I understand that the LMT "Crane" stock is real tough, although I don't own one myself. Also, you might investigate the Vltor or the Magpul. There are others.

ALAN
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 03:36:17 (ZULU)

The AR adjustable telescoping stock has been notable for decades for shearing the locking pin/detent should you have to drive the stock into something.

The A1 stock is still in production, the A2 is a wee bit longer. There is a (I hate to use the word) "Tactical Entry" stock made by Rock River that's the same length as a collapsed M4 stock. Brownells also lists (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=16910&title=AR-15+BOOM+TUBE+STOCK) both a fixed and adjustable tube type stock of all metal.

WR Moore
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 06:05:29 (ZULU)

I'm a fucking wind dummy. There's just no nicer way to say it. Had my ass handed to me today in Sacramento by almost a dozen guys out of 40.

Unbelievable. I would almost say I should have gone fishin' but I did learn some things other than the usual exercise in frustration management so it was worth it.

Joe Ducos did exceptionally well as usual. He shot a couple lanes away from me on the second relay and I'm sure he had the highest score on our relay. It was like a lesson in shooting through the wind. He lurks here sometimes but doesn't post much and that's too bad. Gunsmith, former LE, good guy and excellent long range shooter.

The winner was one of the So Cal guys that I kicked the snot out of last weekend. I'm sure revenge was sweet LOL.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 06:33:01 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve...

>"Barrel life is important. But I found an article on the 260 AI written about Terry Cross' gun. Click on my name to go to the article."<

Terry thinks the 260 AI will have a barrel life of 1,500 to 2,000 rounds.

I would think that 1,500, or maybe a bit less would be in order.

Pat(HA!) has built a few of these 260 AI rifles and I remember him describing the first 4 inches of the throat as "40 miles of bad road", after (I think) 1,000 rounds.

Another solution is a .308 shooting the 155 Scenar. This bullet is about as long as a 190SMK and has a BC of around 0.530, and can be driven at 3,000-3,100 fps.

Using this combination, you can shoot as flat, and have the same wind drift as the 260 AI, and still have a barrel that lasts forever.

At $500 - $700 each, (for chambering, fitting, etc), barrel cost can mount up fast... unless you are building a "Safe Queen".

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 09:46:08 (ZULU)

I think Terry has gone back to shooting a standard .260, rather than a .260 AI - and I think the reason was barrel life.

With respect to the adjustable M4 stocks - my experience has been that if you collapse the stock all the way down before banging the butt on the ground to clear a stuck round, you won't break the stock.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 11:01:20 (ZULU)

The life of the standard 260 v 260AI is no motive... the standard version, run at the same pressures, will give you about 10% more barrel life... which is not much at the 1000-1500 round level.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 12:11:07 (ZULU)

Ouch. Just got back from Badlands, where Rich Johnson of the Clovis, NM PD put on one kick-ass Tactical carbine class. I tell ya, fellers, gettin' old sucks. By Saturday afternoon, I was doing a good imitation of a steam calliope with a couple of tubes missing. But, if any of youse guys ever get a chance to attend a class run by the Lt., do it. I learned more from him, in four days, than I could have learned in YEARS from the SAPD. It was worth every dime, and they didn't charge many of those, either! It was good to meet up with some folks I hadn't seen in a while, too. I was interested in seeing how the new Aimpoint 9000 was going to hold up under those conditions. Wow. It rocks! Bang it, slam it, drop it, whatever. I left it on the entire time I was up there, the 50,000 hour battery life is till working. Using it only, I was making good, solid hits out to 600 yards using mil-standard 62gr ammo. Anyway, had a GREAT time, and now I'm gonna go put on another layer of Ben Normal (nothing gay touches this body) and recuperate for a day or two.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 14:05:23 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I have an Ar 30 in .338 lapua and it shoots just fine... As far as blast goes it's not to bad for the shooter but is hell and everybody else. Brake works good. Felt recoil with my loads is some where between a .243 and a .308. It's good to go for those looooong shots to !

Calvin

Calvin
e-burg, MD, U.S.A - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 14:12:50 (ZULU)

I have found the standard .260 pushing a 123 gr scenar at around 2900 fps to be a functional solution with acceptable barrel wear (guessing)...I'm coming up on 2000 rounds with no measurable reduction in accuracy or MV.

I have a theory that suggests a 130 gr pill will be the optimal for the stock .260 . I've got 200 Norma 130 grainers to test with. The published BCs for this round make it inferior to the Laupa 123, preliminary real world testing suggests the opposite.

medicjim
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 14:18:26 (ZULU)

medicjim -

Have you tried the 130gr. Bergers at around 2850 MV yet?

ALAN
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 16:17:36 (ZULU)

Lito,

I have used the 155's, I was pushing them at 2950fps. But stopped because I didn't like ordering them and no one carried them. If barrel life won't be deminished drastically I guess I could go back to using them. Just order a butt load at a time instead of only 500 at a time. I will use them in the new gun only and use the 175s in everything else. Even if barrel life is only 5,000 I could live with that, but 1,500 is unacceptable to me.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 17:08:53 (ZULU)

Calvin,

"I have an Ar 30 in .338 lapua and it shoots just fine..."

Define this. I would like to know how it groups at 300 yards or better.

MedicJim,

Keep me posted. I am eager to order a gun but could wait a while. I just fear that your gun may go 2500 rounds and show fine. The 2501st round and subsequent rounds just go to crap suddenly. I know some of the real barn burners are said to go all at once. Don't know if it is true but thats what I have heard. But I also heard Santa sees me when I am sleeping. Which leads me to believe he's a pervert. Haha.

Dirty Steve......

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 7, 2007, at 17:20:53 (ZULU)

Alan - Haven't tried Bergers... they never impressed me in .308, so I've been slow to adopt them on the .260

Steve - I'll keep you posted on barrel wear...I'm guessing 3-3.5K out of my stainless 24" bbl. I won't have it set back.

medicjim
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 17:32:48 (ZULU)

What is your guys thoughts on the redding Comp Bushing Dies,are they the best dies money can buy?I sick of buying things then wanting somthing better.

Jon Kujawa
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 19:17:55 (ZULU)

Kujawa,

From my experience, Forster and Redding are the BEST. 'Lito sez customer svc. is better at Forster (scroll up to ~5-days ago).

"Buy Cheap, Buy Twice" is my motto.... and the reason my wallet is empty. But I have a smile on my face when I use the equipment.

What's the latest news on your shooting?

I had a message on my machine last night, my buddy was worried I hocked some furniture for guns. I thought, "No, I haven't, but that's a darned good idea." It may be a first for the Emporium.... "WTS/WTT: Furniture for Rifle(s)"

Duman
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:16:06 (ZULU)

medicjim -

I was curious about the 6.5mm 130gr. Bergers 'cause I might like to try them in my new 6.5x47 Lapua. So far the only bullets that I've tried in it are the 123gr. Scenars and I'm only just beginning with them.

I know that the VLD bullets are quite often difficult to develop loads for, and that any I've tried demanded to be jammed into the lands, not always possible with some rifles.

I can say without a doubt, however, that the .308 dia. 210gr. Bergers really kick ass in my .300WM Sharpshooter II.

Dirty Steve -

"Only 5000 rounds"?

Not trying to be a wiseass here, but you'd probably be best served with a .308 and a .223!

ALAN
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:29:48 (ZULU)

Duman,

Nothing the past few months,I have been playing my 1911's to keep my mind off of my rifle that is being built.Im just waiting for a stock from HS.I should see it with in the next few weeks.I just got in 600 rounds of 308 Lapua brass.Other than that the weather put an end to our last winter matches.Then F-class has started but I refuse to buy anymore 168SMK's.I do have stock up on the 175's though.

Thanks for the help.

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:30:57 (ZULU)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122365

Check this out ya'll

Gooch out

Gooch
Monday, May 7, 2007, at 20:41:23 (ZULU)

Sucky week and finally over today. My German Shepard had been having chronic hip problems for about 3 months. I'd been giving her pain meds for a week fully knowing that I would be taking her to to be put down tomorrow. Well this morning she evidently had a stroke or heart attack and went to that big squirrel chasing place in the sky. I'm glad she went on her own as I didn't really want to put her down. You just don't get used to that stuff. At least she went happy, on damn good pain meds, just after working through the pain enough to have been playing with grandson. He just turned four and doesn't quite understand that she's asleep permently and won't be coming back home. I think that was my last pet. Tired of having them die before I do.

On a good note, my souped up Remmy 700 with the long barrel is supposed to be ready by Saturday. Will load some stuff up for the testing.

Steve, until today I had been smoke free clean since April 1. But this morning I had one on the way to taking my dog's carcass to the vet to be sent off. Kinda helped when my eyes started leaking so I figgered I wouldn't fight it.

Sorry I don't have any exciting shit to write about, Bolt out!

Bolt
Flag at the Bolt household at half mast......., NC, - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 00:28:28 (ZULU)

I'm sorry to hear that Bolt. As you said, at least she went on her own. Nothing sadder than your dog dying. Take care

doug sickels
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 00:47:14 (ZULU)

OK semi-sort-of OT, but how many of you are Ham radio operators? Gettin the bug again as there is NO CW requirement, for any class, that I could find! Have tried over the years and that dang morse always had trouble trying to learn it, but now!! The local ARC meets for a "Coffee" get together ever Saturday morning at the club shack and I happen to be off this Sat. Think I'll wonder over and yack with them and drink their coffee.

Just curious!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 01:50:21 (ZULU)

Sarge,

I went and took the no-code tech test a dacade back. We use the local HAMs for comms when things get ugly...they've been a real help and well worth the effort to keep up to speed on our emergency practices.

medicjim
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 01:59:47 (ZULU)

Alan,

Yes I am a cheap bastard. I want a long life for my barrels. I could probably settle for a 4000 round barrel but anything shorter than that and I would always be buying barrels.

Bolt,

Sorry for your loss. I know it is tuff. I have put several of my dogs down over the years. And it's a real "B" each time. Your having a smoke is understandable. I would wait a while and get another puppy. I just can not go with out a dog. Hell I have 4 still. Your posts don't need to be exciting. This is a pub and you need to drop in and chat. It don't matter your in NC and im in Texas. We can still have an internet beer together.

Aint know one here had a dry eye when Old Yeller died.

You still shooting at Buntner?

Gooch,

That just shows the desire of those who wish to harm us is far greater than most Americans can imagine. Of course I imagine they will stop at nothing to be a threat/pain in the a$$ to us.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 02:07:50 (ZULU)

SteveinButte:

CavArms makes a new A1 stock.

http://www.cavalryarms.com/furniture.html

P. Hayden
United States - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 02:19:55 (ZULU)

Follow a few of the links at the site Gooch posted.

This is going to get nasty.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 02:59:54 (ZULU)

" OK semi-sort-of OT, but how many of you are Ham radio operators? Gettin the bug again as there is NO CW requirement, for any class, that I could find! Have tried over the years and that dang morse always had trouble trying to learn it, but now!! The local ARC meets for a "Coffee" get together ever Saturday morning at the club shack and I happen to be off this Sat. Think I'll wonder over and yack with them and drink their coffee...."

Sarge: You'll do fine -- get the license study manual and review the material. Don't try to do the study questions by themselves... Unless you're a friggen genious. You can go to http://www.eham.net and take some of the sample license exams.

Now if you get the itch to learn morse code -- I can tell ya the right way to learn it... Even if the FCC did us a huge disfavor and dropped the code requirement -- I think you oughta give it a shot. Morse will get through when all the other modes can't ....

Rest of you hawgs out there with an interest in comms should @ least get some understanding of radio, propagation, etc.. as radio waves will work when all else won't - or at least until God stops the clock.

Take care,

Ken KA4AZY, (Extra)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 03:24:58 (ZULU)

Gentlemen,

Bolt: My condolences on the dog. I have a shepherd that just turned 9 and I hate to think of the day when he won't be around. That is the problem with pets, a built in tragidy. I always get another though and never regret it.

MarcS: Joe Ducos is a great guy who kicked my behind on a regular basis when I shot the Sacramento matches. It's been years since I departed Kalifnastan, but he used to shoot a sweet .300 win mag he built himself.

Travis: Wrong Pat. I can understand the confusion. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting someone named Pat....

Pat II
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 04:14:14 (ZULU)

Gents,

Steve In Butte: I have seen guys damage M4s/M16s by slamming them on the ground. I know this will likely take some incoming and you have to use some caution and care but if I had a tight round/failure to extract and I had to get the rifle clear NOW, this worked for me.

Drop the mag, if you have a live round in the chanber, attempt to fire it. If it is a spent casing, with no mag in the magazine well, rather than slamming the butt on the ground, place the buttstock on the ground, take the heel of your boot and give it a rigorous stomp on the charging handle. If you have a collapsable stock, put it on the shortest setting before you do this. If I had a live round in the chanber and was taking fire, I would do this doing my best, to include getting help from other to hold the weapon if available, to keep the muzzle away from me so I don't accidentally shoot myself.

DOING THIS WITH A LIVE ROUND IN THE CHAmBER IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AN EMERGENCY FIX ONLY. You could get shot accidentally doing this. If your standing around with a jammed weapon and you're taking fire, you could get shot unaccidentally. However, I have never seen anybody bust a stock doing this. It may have happened, I have just never seen it.

If this is common knowledge and I am burning bandwith unneccesarily I apologize. Hope this helps. FYI

Pat II
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 04:35:36 (ZULU)

Bolt - Sorry to hear about your dog. The joy they bring is worth the pain you feel when they are gone (it is actually the reason for the pain).

Maybe you'll heal some over time and get another pup.

My GSD is 9yo and I hate to think of when he has to go (luckily he isn't slowing down any yet). I know I'll always have one in the house though.

--------------------------------

Any of you guys who spend lots of time in the back country carry personal location beacons? I was thinking of renting one when we go elk hunting with CDC. IMO - it is one of those better to have and not need than to need and not have items.

Speaking of elk hunting - the dates for the hunt are 15-21 OCT.

We had a bunch of folks interested, set up a website, and had a call but have not seen any posts (save for me and CDC) on the site in a while.

If you are still planning on going - sign into the site and check in once in a while.

If you were not part of the group but are seriously interested contact me and I'll send you the website information.

Just as a reminder - this is a loosely organized hunt for deer and elk in the Palisades area of ID - East side of the state south of Yellowstone. CDC is going to do some scouting this summer and we'll nail down the hunting area. There are plenty of tags left - no draw for res or non-res. Each person must be able to take care of themselves in the woods, bring all provisions, show up in shape (it is pretty rough country and ranges from 5k-9k ft elevation,) and be able to navigate to a specific place and a certain time. Other than that - we plan on working together on the hunt and having a blast.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 04:47:27 (ZULU)

Lt. Chip,

Which unit/area is the hunt going to take place in?

BTW, guys, out of state license and Elk tag will total about $500, and kids 12-17 get their license for $7.25!

Click my name for the Idaho fish and game website.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/fees/nrlic.cfm

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 06:54:22 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Sorry to hear of your loss...Been there a few times.It sucks.

Pat11

"You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting someone named Pat...."

Got a good laugh outta this...and the same can be said about the name

"Steve" also,seems we got a few of them in here.:))

On clearing a stuck case in AR rifle:Had one stick and I was able to clear it by using a screwdriver,prying on the bolt carrier(not the bolt head)and the edge of the magwell w/rifle inverted,couple of thumps and it broke free....I know,who has a screwdriver in the middle of exercise or competition...Just sayin what worked for me.

Not tryin to start a pie fight.

But more importantly....What caused the stuck case???

Bad brass?Bad mag,weak follower spring or worn follower?

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 07:33:11 (ZULU)

Hunt will be in units 64/67. CDC to specifiy location after he scouts this summer.

General deer tag is needed along with a 64/67 "B" tag for elk (antlered - any weapon).

Prices are a bit steep for out-of-staters. But there is no draw for the tags (they will sell out in a couple months though) and going with fellow hogs is bound to be a good time(also beats paying $5k-$10k for a guided hunt).

I plan to drive up Sunday(10/14) and be done hunting Friday night for travel back to N. Cal on Sat.

Cost of the non-res lic/tag are:

$141.50 for the hunting lic.

Plus $258.50 for a deer tag.

Plus $372.50 for an elk tag.

Total - $772.50 per adult hunter.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 08:23:45 (ZULU)

Click. AK lovers, please leave the room while this link is being viewed.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 10:47:50 (ZULU)

I learned Morse to the point of being able to converse in it at 35-40 words per minute, and handled written traffic at about 25, which is as fast as I can write. I enjoyed developing the skill and doing that, but with digital modes on HF being faster and more reliable, Morse is now mostly for fun rather than a critical communication technology.

Now I just use a Handi-talkie during emergencies.

One obsession at a time is about all I can handle - and now mine is shooting.

de AK5N

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 13:12:14 (ZULU)

Oh, yeah; My 10 year old son does the same routine at a much lower intensity. The little sucker has gotten as dense and hard as a badger. He likes it.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 13:37:31 (ZULU)

CDC',

I'd like to add.... BE SAFE. It's too easy to jump into a new routine and pull a muscle (or worse). I've had a number of injuries over the years/decades, and some will sideline you for months. To mix it up, you can pick up a copy of "Muscle & Fitness" from your local bookstore, and get tons of ideas for new exercises for any muscle group. This month's issue has a 4-week, basic, blast-em program.

Just my $0.02

Duman
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 16:08:20 (ZULU)

The best and easiest way to get back into the basic shape to support rigorous strength training is isometric exercises. It can be as simple as crawling around on all fours (hands and feet, not elbows and knees) chasing a small child or pet...a half hour of that and you'll have one hell of a complex muscle workout. My four year old daughter is my workout partner, I tell my wife that we are spending "quality play" time <g>.

Functional strength (read 'fighting strength') comes from complex muscle workouts, not isolated muscle bench work.

medicjim
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 16:15:11 (ZULU)

Has anyone used those redding Neck sizing bushing dies,I was looking at them at midway and they do not look like they have a decapping function with them.Am I high or what?

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 16:52:31 (ZULU)

Calvin,

Email OTW with a couple photos.

Fitness Country. Round is a shape, right? Just kidding. I aint gunna go no the hunt, but I do need to start some sort of exercise routine. I want to continue being a pain in most folks backsides for years to come. I have enough strenght just Zero endurance. Sitting on my but for two months didn't help.

Found out the range I will be shooting f-class at won't allow 338 Lapua's. That kind of sucks. I mean what the hecks the point of owning one if I wouldn't be able to stretch it's leg out once in a while.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 17:08:47 (ZULU)

Sorry Double tapped...

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 17:08:48 (ZULU)

Now that I've got mine:) Powder Valley has Ramshot TAC on sale and 155gn Scenar's in stock. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 18:57:04 (ZULU)

Jon -

The Redding Type S bushing dies come with a decapping rod. Mine have also come with a spare pin, in case one breaks. They also come with a "dummy" expander that you can substitute for the standard expander button so you don't have to drag it through the neck causing excessive case stretching.

I really like these dies and have converted to them for all of my cartridges over the past few years.

You can choose either a full length resizing die with neck bushing or a neck resizing only bushing style die. I combine the neck sizing bushing die with a Redding body die that allows me to resize the body only if and when an often-reloaded case gets a little hard to chamber.

ALAN
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 22:02:18 (ZULU)

Steve in Butte, on your M4 stock, I’d recommend the Sully. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not the smarty-pants: Geoff M recommended it to me. It’s a bit heavy ‘cause there’s no cavity in the butt for storage. I had my smith make a whole pile of green shavings with mine though, so it’s possible to hollow it out. Best of all: when you hollow it out, it’s still WAY stronger than a telestock, and won’t break under a proper type III malf clearance drill (as you experienced). The Sully is longer than the entry stock (got one, it was a bit too short for me) but still shorter by a bit than the A1 stock (have one, a bit too long for me). The Sully is just right IMO. Of course, Lindy’s statement makes as much sense as anything. I just prefer the cheek weld of the solid stocks to the cheek weld I get on a telestock (much like on a piece of PVC tube!).

Long drive to the shoot and back this weekend, it was all good. I used a rack grade ’14 (what else?), iron sights and old Indonesian ball. On the good side, Bub did well ‘nuff. The Geoff-built CZ 22 and TIS sling were as close to ‘cheats’ as anything, but couldn’t hold the weather off. (aside - Speaking of the junior sized quick cuff, thanks Mike! I got the sling as we were headed out, and you’ve got snail-mail incoming ;-) The slings made an impression on some folks, I’d be surprised if you didn’t get some serious orders from a couple out of Wyoming for their programs) Got nicely soaked for most of the day until the rain stopped – and the only reason the rain stopped was ‘cause the snow started. His big problem is that he won’t listen – or has a hard time changing to what he hears. That ‘dragging wood’ comment I made last week or so? Yeah, in spades. For his age though, he did really pretty well. The thing I didn’t know was that this whole thing would mostly be timed exercises. A kid using a single-shot had no real chance of anything, just due to the time restrictions. I kept telling him that 2 or 3 good hits beat 10 rough hits – and I lived what I preached as well. Surprising how many 10 round rapidfire scores I had with only 7 bullet holes... on the good side, take the one out of the pipe and you’ve got your 2 round mag already loaded LOL! Really though, there’s a reason the 5.56 is so much better for these types of shoots. Of course, I don’t practice with battle rifles to shoot those types of courses ;-) I think his ego got bruised too... from hitting coke cans at 50 yards all day long to not doing as well as he could have on the reduced targets. MUCH reduced.

Boltster – I hear your loss, and feel for you. I’ve come to the same conclusion myself, although who knows if I’m smart enough to stay that way or not.

So now Calvin makes me think hard about a 338! ArmaLite gonna put me on the frequent-flyer list at that rate (GRIN).

Update on Patrons Joe and Yote Bait – got a chance to talk with them on the long drive back while the boy slept. Both are well. The coyote whacker put forth a thought I’m pursuing... Badlands in a ‘reversed combat rickshaw’ (sounds better than carrying him around in a wheelbarrow). I’ve hired kids to work the pits for me before, I wonder who could be talked into pulling the wheelbarrow?

Ford (First On Race Day): when I was a youngster I asked my father why it was that people hotrodded Chev engines when Ford engines were designed better. His reply was ‘because all the aftermarket stuff in the world is built for Chev engines’. OK, well why is it that everything is made for Chevs and not Fords? ‘Because GM engines need it’.

Pat II (not hit with a dead cat Pat) – thanks for the offer, it appears the kiddo pursued this on his own (?!?).

KenM – did you get that or did I use a bad e-mail?

And real shooting country: it seems that somehow lately I’ve developed a blink. As in I blink once very rapidly in response to the concussion of my fired round. At first I didn’t think it was bothering my calling of shots, but as time went on I got convinced otherwise. So is there any way other than voluminous dryfire to get rid of my blink? Obviously concentration on not blinking wasn’t working...

Interesting stuff: at this shoot, there were all kinds of sticks present. By the numbers, it appeared that the Simonov was the most popular. Then came all kinds of AR15s, and then us dinosaurs with Garands and ‘14s. It appeared the juniors ran 22LRs entirely. The gray hairs (which I suppose I formally am) did well regardless of stick used - which you’d expect – but it seems that a good shot with a Simonov wasn’t to be bested by many at all. I have little doubt that if those Simonov shooters had used their bayos as front rests (bayo pointed straight down and shoved into the soil), I would have lost to a Simonov driver. Ugh.

Bravo
Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 22:09:19 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

The redding Comp Bushing dies are top of the heap - if you are going to buy one, let me know what the wall thickness is, and what the outside diameter of the FIRED case is, and I'll give you some help picking out a bushing.

Sarge...

Go for it. The new manuals are not hard. The Extra class is a hand full, but the General is a walk in the park.

Now that CW is not required, there is more interest in it than there has been for 20 years. It is not fading, it is growing. When all the new guys get their phone tickets, CW will be the only place you can go without being trampled ;))

'lito de K2BK (Extra class - the hard way ;)

RTTY and AMTOR Rocks!

Pat II...(not hit with a dead cat Pat)

Did you say "Dead Cat"???

;)))))

Magic words to these old ears.

You guys crack me up!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 23:07:56 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve:

The F-class rules tend to depricate the bigger-cased cartridges. Sometimes it can also be a range template issue, the bigger-cased cartridges have a longer-range danger distance.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Tuesday, May 8, 2007, at 23:31:09 (ZULU)

LtChip: Only three guys coming, huh? It would have been nice to have enough hard-cores to move more game over larger areas. Oh well, you guys already bought your paperwork so I'll do it like I believe it. I'll shoot animals.

Jon: Yes, you are high.

medicjim: You didn't read the links did you? Nah, not necessary. Skim and blast.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 02:55:01 (ZULU)

Watching a medical show, it occurred to me, doctors think of "CAT-scan" as a diagnostic tool. To 'Lito, "CAT-scan" means 'target acquisition'.

Duman
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 04:13:21 (ZULU)

CDC - there was no blast intended or present in my email. I didn't read your links. apologies if you took it wrong, no offense intended.

medicjim
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 04:21:10 (ZULU)

There "Lito sat,ina room fulla Pats, and a dead cat,

Where it was tossed didnt matter,the only goal was...

To Watch it splatter.

Unpat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 04:46:59 (ZULU)

CDC - based on the lack of response -I assume it is me, Chris (coming with me), Gary and you? Is that it?

As far as I know those are the only ones who made a firm commitment ever. Gary from IL purchased his tags –so I assume he is in (but have not heard anything from him here or on the other board in a while). Chris and I are definitely in. Don't know what happened to the rest of ‘em.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:27:14 (ZULU)

Bravo,

On your blink problem...duct tape or super glue. Both work well, one too well.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:32:08 (ZULU)

You guys really need to check out the link Gooch posted.

Lindy- "One obsession at a time is about all I can handle - and now mine is shooting." I liked that one. I think I'll steal it if you don't mind :)

Lt. Chip- I've thought about a beacon ever since I heard the story of the climber/hiker that got his hand stuck in a rock and had to cut it off. Do you guys remember that? That guy had the coolness under pressure to realize what had to be done and the balls to actually do it. With a dull Leatherman I think too. Sawed and hacked through all of the tissues and tendons he could then yanked sideways and snapped the bone to free himself. That's one stone cold bad ass.

Alan/Jon- I like my Redding S type dies too but they're all I know since they're all I've used. I took the advice from 'Lito and FCS (does he post here anymore?) on that one.

Pat II- That's right I forgot you used to live out here and escaped. The match has changed alot now with more challenging courses of fire. More changes are on the way with an additional match of steel only targets out to 500 METERS on the metallic silhouette range. You ever think about coming back to visit?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:37:24 (ZULU)

LTChip: "Is that it?"

Dunno. We'll see. Whatever happens, I'm killing game.

MarkS: Yep. Stone cold.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:41:37 (ZULU)

Just came across this. I wonder if they understand there are prepared and proud infidels even around San Francisco. Nothing would bring and end to their existence faster IMO.

http://editorials.arrivenet.com/society/article.php/11383.html

Wish I could go on an out of state hunt. Not any time in the near future though.

Can't wait for the weekend to shoot again but the salmon are showing up in good numbers with hearty appetites from what I've been told. I don't think she's going to be seeing much of me this weekend...

I was all pissed off coming home from the job today. Then I pull up and see one of those familiar McMillan stocks boxes on the porch waiting for me and life is good again :)

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 05:55:57 (ZULU)

I read that article posted by MarcS. You know what REALLY pissed me off, one of those douchebags was named Charley Hunt. I have an idea what that's gonna do when I go to buy my next gun. Geez. Can I just cap him myself?

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 06:22:22 (ZULU)

From the article MarcS posted....

"Once these Allah devotees get hold, they don’t stop. Street fighting never ends."

This sentence takes the whole article right off the deep end.

To sum it up.... The rest of the world is still trying to adjust to just how violent and aggressive the US responded to 9/11. Credibly attacking the US in this day and age is "darwinian stupid"...the absolute worst outcome for a terrorist's cause would be for the US to feel genuinely threatened.

medicjim
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 12:36:45 (ZULU)

Lito,

Will do on the cases,Now I just have to wait the rifle to be done.I droped it off monday,it should be done at the end of may.

Thanks Jon

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 14:23:24 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Regarding beacons. It seems like a good idea. I'd like to learn more about them, and how well they work, etc..

The guy who got caught in a canyon and cut his hand off.... he lives in Boulder. He was hiking in a narrow, deep, water-cut, sandstone canyon. A rescue team could've walked right over him, and not seen him. The problem I have with him, he violated some basic rules. He was alone, he didn't tell anyone where he was going, when to expect his return, and was doing some dangerous climbing on unstable rock.

He was one step away from a Darwin award.

Duman
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 15:35:40 (ZULU)

Lito,

I do know the loaded round was .341.Also do you have to use a sizing lube if you get the Carbide bushing?

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 15:50:28 (ZULU)

Click my name for info on renting PLBs.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 17:45:49 (ZULU)

Travis,

I just viewed the link that showed the tank running over the AK's. I thought I saw a few K98's, and PPsH' too. The AK's probably still work. Maybe they were just trying to improve the accuracy?

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 18:44:26 (ZULU)

Jon-K...

I'll need to know what the fired case neck dia is. If you have a tight neck, you need a different bushing than if you have a loose neck.

And you don't need to use lube with the "carbide" bushing - actually it's TiN (Titanium Nitride) but it workie the same.

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 19:04:23 (ZULU)

Bravo, my E-mail dumped you into the spam folder, package is enroute ETA Monday-Tuesday. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Wednesday, May 9, 2007, at 19:33:51 (ZULU)

A call to arms,

One of our own, our Piggie Pete who is of high esteem in most civilised worlds, is taking a drubbing on the UK forums, and has been dealt a severe blow as of late, in such that he has been kicked off a newly made website within the week of it's opening. There seems to be a fraternity of wannabe know it all's who have it in for our Piggie Pete. It's about time we paid our respects back to the lad, en masse.

Here's the site, an invision board:

www.ukvarminting.com

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 01:47:33 (ZULU)

JR -

OK, so I registered, but now it says that the administrators have to check out my account before they can "validate" my membership! WTF?

If I do get through their hoops what forums do I find the brouhaha concerning Piggy Pete?

ALAN
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 02:58:19 (ZULU)

'Lito- I thought that determining the bushing size was done by measuring the neck diameter of a LOADED round then subtracting 2 thou. I was told this would give proper neck tension and that a fired neck dimension didn't matter. I don't remember where I got this but I think it was from a product description in a catalog somewhere.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 04:24:12 (ZULU)

Duman: "The problem I have with him, he violated some basic rules. He was alone, he didn't tell anyone where he was going, when to expect his return, and was doing some dangerous climbing on unstable rock."

I do the first three several times a year. Not that big of a deal. Kids (30 and below) think they are bullet proof. Most of us did things that stupid and walked away without a scratch. This board is full of guys who, when they were kids, said, "F*** it. I'm going in to be an Infantry Paratrooper (or Marine Infantryman, or Army Ranger or something equally insane)". Guys like that will blow off all four of those rules before breakfast and never give it a second thought.

In any case, I can't imagine having the guts it takes cut your own arm off with a pocket knife.

Sheer balls.

CDC'
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 04:47:05 (ZULU)

MarkS: Click my name for Redding's instructions.

CDC'
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 10:33:24 (ZULU)

MarcS -

What CDC says!

Measuring a loaded round and subtracting .002" will work under ideal conditions, but does not take oversize factory chambers with large neck diameters into considerartion, nor does it consider differences in "springback" due to variations in brass.

ALAN
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 15:38:26 (ZULU)

Well,

If you go to Accessories, Brugger and Thommett moderator thread, this is the thread which Pete had made his first and only post, which has been subsequently deleted. There was nothing wrong with his post, in fact it was quite informative on various types of moderators he has used and tested over the years. There seems to be this fraternity of folk, who seem to want to put pete out of the picture in this country. If this was a one-off, I wouldn't have taken so much notice perhaps. But this is the 3d site in 3 uk sites I've visited where the same bunch of arseholes blatantly go after him, and Pete does not deserve that sort of treatment. JonB, Sgreadan, has made a statement on page 2, which pretty much sums up the bullshit Pete has gone thru on the UK forums..Jon, as you know isn't one to stir up the pot, but I think he as well as I have had enough. I'll post it here before it gets deleted, for record's sake:

"I'll lay my cards on the table. I am a friend of Pete Lincoln's and proud to say as much. I first met him on the forums about 6 years ago and we've been close friends ever since. I came to this board on Pete's recommendation (and that of JR's) who thought this site could be just what the UK shooting community needed. Until then I had stayed more or less on the US forums because I had found nothing from this country to compare to the broad knowledge base and quality information found on the good US sites.

As I usually do, I read much and posted little. I was aware before I came on here that there were a small crowd with axes to grind for Pete, and when I saw them post I stood back and watched. I wasn't here to cause trouble, after all I had only been here 5 minutes and I've noted some people on this board seem to equate date of registration and number of posts to experience and knowledge. So I've added a comment or 2, trying not to get drawn in, and besides Pete’s big enough and ugly enough to look after himself (most of the time).

I wanted to see a forum where people of like minds could come to get advice, learn something from each other and create friendships. I had hoped that this would become a great forum, and for a forum to be truly great it needs the contribution of people with a lot of knowledge and experience. On sites where there are such people they can be used to call BS on someone offering poor advice or just talking plain rubbish, they help newcomers with good advice and take the time and effort to pass on their help. They give a site it’s character and credibility. These people are usually few, but the role they play is huge. Pete is one of those people. I have learnt a great deal from him and he has gone out of his way to help me, often at inconvenience to himself. I agree with B-B, the site is poorer without him.

For my part, I've been involved with professional deer and wildlife management for over 10 years. I have either shot myself, or been eye-witness to, the culling of more deer over those years than the majority of members on this site could hope to be involved with in a lifetime. As you may guess I've picked up a thing or 2 over that period and it’s always been my philosophy to help people when I can. I don't for one minute imagine I'm one of the forum gurus I mentioned above, I don't post enough for a start, but I had hoped that as time went on I would be able to contribute something back to the forum when people needed advice on deer, kit for stalking, working dogs, carcase handling, whatever. Unfortunately that will never be, because I don't want any part of a forum that would boot Pete. I think I can be pretty sure when I say I know Pete better than any other person on this board, and he does not deserve this treatment.

Pete's only mistake I can see was the giving of estimated delivery times on his work. If he had done what the rest of the quality rifle builders do and refused to give times, estimated or otherwise, most of the shit Pete found himself in wouldn't have happened (go place an order with Callum Ferguson or Dave Tooley and ask 'how long?'). But surely he can be excused this, as he was new to the world of commercial custom rifle building and has since learnt his lesson the hard way.

So fellas, I bid you goodbye, and I hope you enjoy a site dominated by a few mutually masturbating keyboard commandos who wouldn't know their arse from their tit when compared to the likes of Pete.

Jon"

I contemplated jacking it in myself, but then thought it wouldn't be fair to Pete to let this nonsense about him and his company go unchecked. I'm not about to initiate a conflict, but you can sure bet will be in the middle of it if they shame his name again.

As well, I have a sneaking suspicion those who have had their first scalp, won't look too far to find Pete's supporters and go after them as well.

Take care,

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 17:48:40 (ZULU)

Update:

from the admin:

"Pete and i have actually come to a mutual agreement and he is now back on the board.He is not currently using hos roedale name though."

So that is a start. the site is pretty fresh yet, and hopefully with a few more knowledgeable contributors, it can remain fair minded. So the 'call to arms' as it may, can stand down, as the Yorkshireman has his place back.

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 19:18:28 (ZULU)

JR,

Thanks for the update. Tell Pete to come home (here). Unless, of course, "....as the Yorkshireman has his place back" includes sheep. :8-p

Duman
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 19:49:56 (ZULU)

Just got a text off Pete saying he's back on. My advice was f**k 'em! To much pride and too many principles may be, thats why I get shit at work, but then I have to look at my self in the mirror.

I still have my eyes on you folks. The Roster is still THE place for no nonsense, BS free gun talk.

Back to lurk

All the Best

Jon

Jon Beardsley
UK - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 19:58:33 (ZULU)

Guys,

Re: Forums. Good ones are few and far between. Seems like idiots are taking most of them over. A lot of them have admins with idiot buddies who hound anyone who doesn't share their opinions, right or wrong.

Anyone with experience on an XM8? I was kinda thinking of looking at getting one, further down the line. Opinions?

Also, got an E-mail form the NRA yesterday. Apparently, up in Greensburg, Ks., where they recently had a tornado flatten everything but the grain elevator, the cops were confiscating guns. Apparently, you're not allowed to keep looters from stealing what little you have left! The REALLY funny part is, a cop and some national guardsmen, all in uniform were jailed for looting. Real damn funny. I guess it's a good thing the constitution was written on smooth paper. What a bunch of horseshit.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 22:15:19 (ZULU)

Jon -

It's good to see that you're still alive :)

Pull up a barstool and join in more often!

Travis -

They're made of a type of plastic that melts when they get hot. That's one of the reasons that they failed miserably at the military acceptance trials a while back.

ALAN
Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 23:03:24 (ZULU)

Allrighty.. I'm Home !!

Ha.. Jon and JR, i'm touched by your support.

And Jon your right. F$%^ em. I share my knowledge for free, give discounts to board members and still take shit.

It all stems from jealousy on the one side.

The lapdogs of a couple of other gun dealers ( I wont call em riflesmiths) have taken it upon them selves trying thier best to talk bull, every rifle i sell is a rifle they dont and they dont like it. Especialy as they are charging a shed load more money, have no qualifications and no product liability insurance to back anything up. They know that they can't compete in the quality or value so they resort to underhand tactics.

Plus certain individuals who have nothing better to do than masterbate the key board as Jon put it and who realy need to be seen to by the head doctor and the men in white coats.

Unfortunately due to having a, how did the Queen put it " Annus Horribilis" last year i let a couple of things slip and have em something to bite at. Its litteraly about a half dozen divvits with agendas, but unfortunatly a lot of the UK market can't tell the difference

You know i some times cannot understand the mentality of the British, the UK market makes up about 10% of my turnover but 90% of the stress, but then we all know there are a lot of arseholes in the gun-hunting game in the UK. If it wasn't for the suppressor business and my patriotism i'd just say let the uk market sink itsself.

These idiots bitch on about delivery times, well i never promised anyone a delivery date, how can you when you where due rifle actions in last august from a certain manufacturer and they only just turn up now.!? I built and delivered 34 rifles last year, thats part time and with basicaly 5 months off due to health-parents health and other stuff. It would interest me how many the other uk smiths made in the same time frame and how much of a time garantie anyone else gives.

Anyway,

as things stand the rifle trade is roaring, planning permission is in for a full blown retail shop store type premises. ( I'll be selling wellington boots then Jon !!) I just bought 5 lathes. ( I know, i can only use 1 at once, i'll sell all the colchesters and the smaller weiler and keep the 2 bigger weilers) and as soon as the shop is built, i'm quitting flying space ships and going full time. I can't damn well wait. this 300mile drive to work is beginning to become boring and dangerouse, ive been doing it 8 years, the night shifts are also a pain in the ass. Got my own actions in production, delaer ship for a couple of outstanding accessories firms in the pipeline.

Anyway.

Good to be looking back on the roster.

like is said, yep back home,

cheers dudes Pete

Pete Lincoln
D - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 00:31:54 (ZULU)

MarcS: Aw stop it, you're making me blush!!! Seriously, thanks. I do try. Hardly get to check the roster more than a couple days a week so by the time I get to have a say in somefin, these guys usually have covered it. So not to be redundant I usually don't respond.

PatII: Still have that 300 WM. About 2200 rds down the Hart tube and still shoots great. BTW, I didn't build it, Hart barreled the Winchester action and I bedded it in the McMillan A2 stock, and did the trigger per 'Lito's instructions (Thanks Lito!) Also, whenever you wish to come back "inside the wall" you're welcome to bunk at my house. And our mutual bud "Stone" is here in my AO, just hard as hell to get a hold of that boy! Take care.

Joe Ducos
turlock, ca, USA - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 00:58:23 (ZULU)

MarkS...

>" thought that determining the bushing size was done by measuring the neck diameter of a LOADED round then subtracting 2 thou."<

Well.... yes and NO!!

These dies were developed "by" and "for" the benchrest crowd. These guys seat their bullets in finger tight - that is to say, in most of their rounds, you can pull the bullet out with two fingers. This is to eliminate neck tension as a variable. Typically, the bullet is seated long, and the final seating is done by the leade/throat as the loaded round is chambered. So they want the neck to be ~ 0.001" smaller than the bullet.

Note in the Redding notes that CDC referenced...

... "Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet."

The phrase "PROPER PRESS FIT" is what the 0.001" to 0.002" will give you.

But for us bums, we will have actions filled with powder and bullets stuck in the throats of our riffles in a match if we load ammo like that, and sure as hell, it won't feed from a magazine.

Hell, the damn rounds will come apart in out pockets.

So we want more neck grip... 4 to 6 thou under bullet dia is a good place to be.

The other part is this.

>" It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010"."<

Guess who brought it to "their attention" ;))

About 3 or 4 years ago, I discovered that if the fired neck was much larger, then the sized neck could wind up smaller than the bushing... so you could run a 0.348" neck in a 0.338" bushing and come up with a 0.334" neck, and the bushing would rattle on the neck...

It's a long story and took a bit of effort to understand what was happening.

Duman...

I have been teaching Ruggus Rattus about survival for a while... what to take (space blanket, FRS or GMRS radio with 20 AA bats and how to call and listen on the quarter hours, and not to waste batteries. Take a Military signal mirror, two Bic lighters, small container of Kerosene, GPS with "backtrack" and "Go home", etc.

This stuff even for a day hike - plus where he is going, when he is coming back... etc.

Grown experienced woodsman and climbers have died for the want of this small kit.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 01:30:50 (ZULU)

Pablo and MarkS: If you think that link was bad, click my name for a peek into case prep Hell. If I had to do all this to LAPUA(!) brass I'd sell my sticks and take up needlepoint.

CDC'
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 03:45:31 (ZULU)

Thanks Pablo and CDC. That info explains some things I'll tell you about. This will be boring and useless to most if not all but here goes.

I'm shooting a Mod 70 based .260 right now that was built by an unknown AMU armorer. Don't know what kind of barrel it is but the chamber is HUGE. I got some loaded ammo to start with from a buddy and measured the necks. Then I ordered my dies and the guy on the phone at Sinclair says ok get a bushing .001 smaller than my measurement. I asked if he was sure about this because I thought it should be .002 smaller and he said no the "Reddings run a little tight". Huh? It's a specific measurement whaddya mean tight? Whatever that's what I got. The first piece of brass I ran into it stopped with less than half of the case inside. I had to force the hell out of it to go in and it actually polished the case where it contacted it to a beautiful shine. The neck was sized (and also polished) but not all the way down to the angle where the shoulder starts. That very small section of neck near the shoulder that was not sized had a very significant bulge that's instantly noticed when you look at it. I fire them, the bulge is gone, resize and it's back (when I use the same type of die on my GA Precision SCLE rifle I barely feel any contact at all, as if it's barely touching the brass at the end of the stroke). I did notice that the diameter of the necks after sizing was smaller than the size of the bushing and couldn't figure it out but ignored it.

I will measure the size of the fired case neck again since I forgot what it was. Maybe I need to resize in a two step process as described. That sounds like a pain in the ass though. Maybe I should send it to George to be rechambered? I think I'll order some more bushings in much smaller sizes too.

What's strange is that this rifle is such a tack driver. When I pulled the barrelled action out of the stock I was shocked. The bedding job looks like I did it. I mean terrible. Voids and wrinkles all over the place so bad it looks like he used a twinkies wrapper on the action for a release agent. That combined with the condition of the chamber would mean it doesn't shoot right? The few times I have done tests from the bench it has produced super tight bug holes of 1/4 moa and it was very consistent. I haven't shot it from the bench since I started loading my own but it seems like my reloads are working well enough to win if I don't have my head up my ass.

The load is 43.5 grains of H4350, 142 SMK, FED210M, RP brass and it gets 2,800 fps from a 28" barrel. I haven't checked where the seating depth is or how it relates to the leade I just matched my buddies ammo that I started with and ran with it.

Pete it's good to hear from you again I wish you had time to check in more often. I miss your late night pig hunting stories.

I just realized I've been lurking and hardly posting here for about 6 years or thereabouts. I've posted more in the last two weeks than all of that time combined. This is without a doubt the best site on the net for a rifleman to hang out in.

Thanks fellas,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 06:10:13 (ZULU)

Thanks Alan, I might just do that.

Lito,

As a Redding die user, thanks for the info. Heres a few figures for you. On my 330WM using Lapua brass the fired case necks are coming out at 0.340", I'm using a 0.334" bushing and the sized necks are 0.332" - 0.333" and loaded rounds are 0.335" - 0.336". What would you recommend? I've found with Lapua that the brass seems to have a hell of a grip. There is definate resistance when I seat bullets and I've remeasured OAL length on a round thats been shot over by 4 other rounds to check for movement of the bullet while in the mag (think from memory it had moved 0.001"). Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Travis,

You nailed the forum trouble right on the tippy top of the head. Thats exactly whats happening on the forum in question (hence my comment about them all pulling each others), and unfortunately for Pete, hes not in the 'in crowd'. Just had a thought. May be me, Pete and JR should start our own forum for the UK - hmmmm!

Hogs,

Any of you guys tried any insecticide treated clothing for ticks? We have a rep coming into work shortly selling the stuff and was wondering if any one had any comments. Ticks in my area are bad, and I've just been reading a report that Lyme is on the increase. Uggghhhh!! Makes my skin crawl thinking about the little bastards!

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
UK - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 12:52:26 (ZULU)

Jon,

My current understanding is...

The three product 'science based' ingredients you'll find here in the States for keeping bugs off you are: DEET, Permethrin and Sulfur. Permethrin is not suitable for direct skin application. One can also make the case that DEET is one scary chemical and although it is accepted practice to spray the stuff on skin, it may be unwise.

I have found that using a combination of permethrin applied to clothing (wrists, pant cuffs, belt area and shirt seam) the day before....and using DEET on my hat and general clothing exterior just before crawling about....well, it works for me. We have lots of ticks around here and lots of Lyme.

There is tons of hype and mis-information regarding this topic here... there are folks that swear by a product called Avon Skin-so-soft. I'm not so sure it actually does anything...it sure doesn't work on New Jersey mosquitos and ticks.

medicjim
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 15:03:19 (ZULU)

"Avon Skin-so-soft"

Urban myth - the bugs love the stuff - kinda like an appetizer.

It was covered on the TV show "Urban myths busted"

Jon Beardsley...

If your sized necks are 4 thou under the loaded dia, then you are fine.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 15:50:48 (ZULU)

Lito,

I also forgot to tell you that it is going to be a tight neck chamber.I mesured wrong,the loaded round mesures .337 and the smith said he is going to make the neck .005 over that.He also said that he might use a modified palma reamer,but he will get the throat cut for the 175SMK.

Jon

Jon Kujawa
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 16:54:09 (ZULU)

Thanks for the replies guys.

Lito,

I ain't no Englishman I originate from the Valleys of South Wales. Tom Jones country ;-) Thanks again.

Jim,

Not sure if we can get permethrin here for personal use. The Forestry Commission used to use it on young trees by dipping. The lads doing it had to wear NBC type protective gear and have monthly blood tests. They don't use it any more as far as I'm aware. We do get it as a spot-on treatment for the dogs though. Not entirely happy with that. The stuff this bloke is coming to sell is factory impreganted clothing. Apparently kills ticks if they stay on the clothing too long (sounds like it could be permethrin or similar). Lasts x number of washes and so on. I heard from a lad that saw a demo, says he tips a hand full of ticks out of a pot onto a garment and they can be seen slowing down and eventually die. Can't remember the name of the garment maker off the top of my head though, but I had a feeling it was US or Canadian origin. Wondered what it would do to my nuts if I got a sweat on ;-)

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsely
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 17:04:33 (ZULU)

Marcs,

Thats right this is the best spot.You can learn alot from these guys.

The rifle that is making the buldge do you have to seat the bullet out more?The are alot of posts about this on 6mmbr.com.

jon

Jon Kujawa
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 17:59:15 (ZULU)

Click for the BEST bug spray I've ever found. All natural and organic. I can stand in a cloud of mosquitos and not get bit. It ROCKS! Don't smell bad, either. Kinda minty. The wife even likes the smell, and she don't like anything! This stuff also lasts longer than anything else I've tried. Seems to work well on all the creepy crawlies, including ticks. Kinda takes the fun outta takin' your woman out to the woods, though. I kinda like checking her for ticks! The next best stuff is called pyranha (sp?) it's about as good, but costs more.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 18:15:24 (ZULU)

JonB, Pete,

Well, the roach motel is always open, and the bar is always servin..When in doubt, come home to the Roach Motel.

Pete,

On a lot of forums, its not what you say, but how many times you have said 'something'. Irrelevant posturing, back slapping, and a bit of the how's your father in-out in-out wink wink. And to me that does not elevate a 'member' to patron status here. It's what you know, and what you have done before you gain my respect concerning riflecraft. The UK forums, well, the ones I've visited can be so fraternally based they are missing the point of discussion all together. It's like watching inbreeding, nothing advances. I had hoped the new forum would be different. We shall see.

'Lito,

Skin so soft does work for midges here. Don't know if you have seen a Kielder midge, but they are like a gnat with 4 inch vampire fangs, thirsty for all your blood, give me mosquitoes any day over the kielder midge. You know the guys who cover themselves in bees? doesn't take long to look like that in midges up here..The spray doesn't work, but the rub on oil form that leaves you glistening does. It definitely works for midges, but doesn't do you much good in the field if you're smelling of a french beaudoir(sp)....And you catch some hell in the pub after..

English JonB,

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 18:41:09 (ZULU)

My father and I went thru Lymes treatment last fall,

Couple things about Lymes...It can take up to 6 weeks for the

body to develop the antigens needed to get a positive reading on the

blood test.Not everybody developes the bulls eye rash...and once ya test positive for it,You will always test positive...

I dont remember how long the tick has to be on you for it to transfer the bacteria that is responsible, but know it is more than 8 hours.So if ya notice it(tick) right away ya might not get it(Lymes).The antibiotic used in treatment is relatively cheap...10 bucks or so.

And its taken for 2 weeks.Limit dairy intake...It blocks the body from absorbing the antibiotics.

On deet based products...generally anything over 25% is a waste of money.And will make you very uncomfortable.It burns.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, May 11, 2007, at 19:54:04 (ZULU)

Travis,

Is that stuff safe for human use? I mean.... 'valleyvet.com' ??

Duman
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 19:56:25 (ZULU)

UnPat -

"...generally anything over 25% is a waste of money. And it will make you very uncomfortable. It burns".

I live on the western slope of the Rockies in Colorado, where the West Nile Virus mosquito has become a very real public health threat over the last few years. We've had several deaths in this county attributed to West Nile, so everyone around here with a brain in his head who spends time outdoors during the season is very serious about protection.

Here's what I learned about DEET that is opposite to what you just posted -

The higher the concentration of DEET, the longer it affords protection. A 5% concentrate is normally good for a 90 minute exposure, while a 100% concentration averages about 10 hours. Use a concentration that is appropriate to your planned time outdoors. So if you're out camping or hunting use a high enough concentration to enable you to get a good nights sleep without worry.

A high quality DEET product doesn't feel uncomfortable when used on normal skin, nor does it burn when applied. I use a pump spray product by Sawyer called MAX DEET Low Odor Formula which is 100% DEET, and it causes no discomfort for me or my wife when applied to the skin and used on a daily basis. Just don't rub it in your eyes ;)

Also, DEET is not recommended to be sprayed on clothing or sleeping bags, etc. DEET doesn't kill insects, it is a repellant, and as such repels a mosquito for about three hours before he'll be able to return to the source. Sort of a 'time out' period where he won't want to come back around you.

See www.deetonline.org for the FAQ's

ALAN
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 20:50:20 (ZULU)

Support for my comments on DEET

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/deet-ext.html

extracted from the above link ..."Deet is absorbed promptly from the skin and distributed to all organs including the brain and the fetus"

This is enough to convince me that it works better for me if I keep it on my clothes and off my skin.

medicjim
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 21:54:38 (ZULU)

medicjim -

Many things that we get or put on our skin become absorbed by our internal organs. The question is, how does DEET effect the organs that absorb it?

I wouldn't be a great supporter of the stuff, but it's the only thing that I've found that works reliably for me. Otherwise, it's stay indoors for a long portion of the day about five months out of the year. Or perhaps move to the city :((((

ALAN
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 22:59:30 (ZULU)

Permethrin work wonders. There are several products that can be sprayed on clothing and when dry, will last about 6 weeks. The first time I used it, I noticed a tick just below my waist heading upwards with evident bloodlust. About the time I thought that the spray wasn't worth anything, the tick stiffened, quivered and dropped dead.

WR Moore
Friday, May 11, 2007, at 23:58:57 (ZULU)

Alan - Where is the hell on earth that you live in...bugs sound really bad there....

medicjim
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 02:12:40 (ZULU)

Alan,

Guess that'll teach me to stay away from the cheap stuff.

I bought some 100% stuff from Farm&Barn...dont remember the name on the enviromentally friendly aerosol can.I didnt recognize the brand name but seen it said it was 100% so figured it had to be good.

I sprayed liberally into palm of hand,rubbed hands together and applied to neck and insides of upper arms.If a little is good,then more is better.

And did a general body fog/spray.After a few minutes it felt like a zippo had leaked onto the upper arm and neck area.Where it was applied to clothed areas it didnt bother me.

It may have been the quality of the product,I may have sensitive skin,

and I may have used the product in a manner other than intended or a combination of.I do know that if I use 25% in the same areas it doesnt burn and costs a bit less.

We have West Nile also..but not to the extreme you do..21 cases or so

in my state.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 02:35:07 (ZULU)

National and State Maps for West Nile Virus.

http://diseasemaps.usgs.gov/

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 02:40:14 (ZULU)

Ken M: Are you still in?

CDC'
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 04:16:58 (ZULU)

medicjim -

Where do I live?

In Mesa County, Colorado, about three hundred feet above the Colorado river, on the benches of the Grand Mesa which is said to be the worlds largest and highest (10,000 ft elev.) flat top mountain.

Go to the link that UnPat posted, click on West Nile Virus, then click on Colorado on the state selector found at the right upper part of the screen, when the CO state screen comes up look at the section with the number 38 (the reported human cases of West Nile) at the far western part of the state, right next to the Utah line. That's Mesa County.

Actually, this place is far from hell. Much farther from hell than New Jersey, for example:) Being right between the mountains and the high desert we have the normal types of insects found in both environments. Some of the unpleasant kind like the black widow, the brown recluse, several types of scorpions, centrepedes, ticks and unfortunately, mosquitos that carry the West Nile virus.

But the bugs here ain't nothin' when compared to states like South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana and the other hot and humid hell holes. Ducking for cover :)

One other thing - I've lived here over thirty years and have never laid eyes on a roach since I've been here. Can't say that for the northeast corridor, can ya? ;)

ALAN
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 04:42:20 (ZULU)

CDC- will post a repsonse at the other site.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 07:16:49 (ZULU)

All you guys should plan to spend your next vacation at Alan's house. He lives in a very nice place.

Alan: Are the roads still lined with fruit vendors in the fall? I used to eat the blood plums by the bucket. Delicious.

CDC'
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 10:53:51 (ZULU)

CDC -

Yes, the roads are still lined with fruit stands after the harvest. Peaches have become the big cash crop, with some early varieties ready in late July. Wine grapes are getting very popular, with fourteen wineries - complete with tasting rooms, the whole nine yards - in the immediate area. I live up on East Orchard Mesa, right in the middle of the orchards and vineyards.

All you Hawgs are welcome to stop by if you're in the area:))

ALAN
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 12:51:14 (ZULU)

Alan,

Where I live in New Jersey, we have no roach problem and bugs are only a significant problem for a month in late summer (I actually think west nile may have landed in the US here first, but seasonal effects limit it's manifestation)). I grow peaches, pears, apples, blueberries, strawberries, cherries, tomatoes, beans, cilantro, peas and corn on my two acre plot. The weather is pretty moderate due to my relative proximity to the coast. The offer goes two ways...I've always got some beer in the fridge for a roster hog.

medicjim
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 15:27:36 (ZULU)

CDC, I'm still coming. 15-21 OCT works for me. S/F....Ken M

Ken M
IL, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 18:53:11 (ZULU)

Glad to hear it Ken. We are now 5 confirmed I think.

I cleaned up some of the old posts on the website leaving relevant posts.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 21:06:46 (ZULU)

Man, you're a buncha moaners! :-) The fast Zulu is now the right Zulu again. Bless Shaka!!

Marius

Marius
Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 21:51:59 (ZULU)

Went shooting today. Got to the range late, around 1300 hrs. The Mirage was bad and could not see bullet hole at 300 yards. Of course I was shooting a 223 and that did not help. I was trying to get my zeros out to 500 for that gun. 300 just gave me fits since there was one other guy there shooting. There is no 400 yard line so I couldn't drive to the 100 yard line and shoot out of the bed of my truck due to the other shooter. Amazingly I got my 500 yard zero by guessing and was with in .25 MOA. I had shot once before with this gun at that distance so it was an educated guess. I shot only a three round group and it was pretty small. I haven't measured it but guessing it will be 1.5" 1.75". I was using 75 grain Hornady match bullets and 25.0 grains of Varget once fired WCC99 cases.

Was going to go horse back riding now but 75 yr old riding buddy said I was an idiot for not calling him yesterday. He has been riding all week and needs some rest. Can belive he needs a day off! Heck he's begining to act like a 76yr old.

Pete, Screw those dang retards. Stay here where you are welcome and appriciated.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 22:47:22 (ZULU)

Yeah, Steve. It was a beautiful day to shoot. Nice and cool, low wind, partly cloudy. It sure would have been nice IF MY BUDDY HAD CALLED AND ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO GO. Spent the morning cleaning out the garage of my rent house, instead. Yup. Sure woulda been nice.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2007, at 23:28:35 (ZULU)

test to check zulu...

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 02:04:36 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve;

Sorry for the late reply. Regarding your post about building a Savage F-Class rifle in .260, I have done it. Mine is .260AI, 30 inch barrel with 1-8.6 twist. I use Remington brass, CCI BR2 primers, 139gr Lapua Scenars with 42.5gr H4350.

Most the matches I shoot are at 50ft ASL. From a 100 yard zero, I use 11.5MOA at 600y and 28MOA at 1000y.

I have been very pleased with it. I'm near the 1400 round mark and it shows. Still shoots good but not like it used to.

I went with the AI for two reasons. Case capacity with the longer bullets and less case stretch.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 02:46:06 (ZULU)

'Lito, e-mail inbound from Roster, no attachments.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 04:04:51 (ZULU)

Well just damn.............

Got my Remmy back with the 32" Lilja barrel on it. The friggin thing is too long for my drag bags and even for the hard cases I've got. I need a case at least 53" clear or I'm gonna have to take a hacksaw to the barrel. Any suggestions?

Caseless for my long tube, Bolt out!

Bolt
My tube is too long........., NC, - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 15:55:05 (ZULU)

Off Topic:

I was searching for an old Anita Bryant song (yes, I'm that old)

and ran across this.

http://inmycorner.blogspot.com/

Well worth reading.

Mark

P.S. Still looking for Earth Cookies! Not quite sure what to do if I

find one.

Mark Taylor
WBGV, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 16:19:19 (ZULU)

Duman,

Yup, it's safe. It's made from Citronella, tea tree oil, and other hippie crap. Way better for you than DEET, which attacks your liver. I don't suppose anyone here needs their liver damaged any further...... For a DEET product, Muskol has worked well for me.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 16:30:19 (ZULU)

Jody,

Thanks for the input. I still haven't decided what to do. Was looking to use that new Savage F class action and make a dedicated F-class gun. I will either do the 260AI or the 308 and just use 155 Lapua Scenars in it. Should come real close to the 260 but with less barrel wear. But still considering a 338 Lapua. Trying to contact all the long ranges and get an answer on if I can use it one thier ranges.

Chuck,

I woulda called but if was a spur of the moment thing. I had to go to Devine and since it was half way to the range I dropped in. After I got home I tweaked my Savages trigger. It's better now and I should be able to group better with it. I shot a nice 500 yard group. Only three shots but two are almost touching. The group meased 1.75". Oh if you thought the trip to the 500 line was messy you should see it now.

Travis,

In regards to your post on the loting in Kansas. That why we have a tough time hiring here. We have 1,000-1,200 take the test here and only take the top 100-200 scores. Then we start the weeding process. We end up with a class of 35-50 folks. We lose a few in trainimg too. We are 200 officers short with no damn way of catching up while maintaining our standards. And we still have the occasional idiot slip in. Hell we get paid very well, I don't know why folks don't come here from all over any more to test. We used to have a lot of out of state folks come here to test. But for some reason the numbers have declined. Click on my name if any one is interested. or go here http://www.sanantonio.gov/SAPD/?res=1024&ver=true

DirtySteve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 18:53:11 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Is a Starlight case long enough? I noticed they have some listed on the emporium for $125 plus shpping.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:29:39 (ZULU)

Bolt:

You're not the first fellow to paint himself into that corner :-)

Eagle and Blackhawk don't seem to make a production case that is large enough.

One of these might do the trick:

http://www.acecase.com/Sleeve-Type-String-Tie-Case-Fabric-p-16385.html

10x54" for scoped rifle.

Or this:

http://www.acecase.com/50-Caliber-AR-50-Case-Nylon-Large-p-16250.html

12x60" for AR50 and other .50 cal rifles.

Or this:

http://www.acecase.com/Sniper-Rifle-Case-with-Pocket-Nylon-p-16427.html

14.5x53"

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:35:35 (ZULU)

re: Starlight cases:

largest I found in a quick search was:

SC-061352FW -- Double rifle and scoped rifle case. Internal dimensions 6” D x 13” W x 52” L.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:39:50 (ZULU)

Bolt- 2 choices:

1. Install wheels & a trailer hitch.

2. Build your own. See if you can find some pix of the coffin the SMLE sniper rifle used to come in as a model.

WR Moore
Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 19:49:18 (ZULU)

Bolt;

There is a company somewhere that makes custom aluminum cases. Can't remember who but I considered it when I built my F-Class rifle. It has an OAL of 54 inches. It fits in the longest Starlight but I have to place it diagonally.

Dirty Steve;

Pascagoula, MS (where I shoot) allows .338 Lapua. No .50BMG though.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2007, at 23:53:30 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got an E-mail the other day from the NRA, saying that they were investigating reports of cops disarming citizens in Greensburg, Ks. after the tornado. On the local news, these reports were found to be false. Never got an e-mail from NRA saying that, but I figured I'd try to UN-ring the bell, FWIW. Cops there are having a hard enough time, what with having a cop and some soldiers looting while in uniform.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 00:08:55 (ZULU)

Boltster...

Fear not, Dudeski.

53" long and $41 bucks.

Can't beat that with a stick!!

http://www.acecase.com/Sniper-Rifle-Case-with-Pocket-Nylon-p-16427.html

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 01:18:14 (ZULU)

re: Greensburg, KS

from Michael Bane's Downrange TV forum:

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=328.msg2453;topicseen#new

May 11, 2007, 04:59:41 PM

"Watched the news last night out of Wichita (Ch 10) and according to the report emergency personnel where picking up firearms that were found in the debris and taking them to a locked response trailer. People missing guns could come down and pick them up if they could describe them or had a serial number. Owners of missing firearms were shown on TV getting their firearms back. The firearms were only picked up to prevent looters from running off with them or from further damage of being left out in the weather."

Another member posted:

"This is why I have copies of my SN at a couple of different secure locations."

(To facilitate proving ownership).

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 01:22:56 (ZULU)

I have two cases made by these folks, fine cases...

http://www.icc-case.com/

Sharon

Edited to add link...

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 03:20:29 (ZULU)

Bolt,

Star Case

http://www.starcase.com/

ProCase

http://www.procases.com/?gclid=CK-XwP_jjIwCFRI7ZQodTCVzAg

GemStar

http://www.gemstarmfg.com/

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 05:10:31 (ZULU)

Re: School shootings, etc.; CLICK

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 07:14:49 (ZULU)

Interestin reads Travis!

And the Liberal morons in my city wonder why I spend every free minute I can get squeazin a trigger.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 12:21:48 (ZULU)

Serial numbers: I have a text file with the serial numbers of everything I own which has a serial number or a VIN, including our passport numbers. Beside the copy in the PDA I carry, I mailed that file to myself at two web-based email services and stored the file, which can then be accessed from any computer with an Internet connection.

I also do the same with credit card numbers and contact information, but the numbers are manually encrypted.

It may one day be handy to be able to provide those numbers if other documentation is not present for whatever reason.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 13:22:58 (ZULU)

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Lindy mentioned this a few years back and I immediately copied his idea (with 256 bit encryption)...damn smart man!

medicjim
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 14:19:01 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thats pretty smart. I have all my gun serial numbers saved on my computer. Then a printed page stored in a file then a list stored of a disc. I don't save credit card info. I aint never lost a wallet in 45 years. That being said any bets on me losing it this week? Seems thats the way it happens. Plus I don't trust having that info saved any where. I also shred all my mail that has anything except my address on it. I'm gunna get a bigger shreder and shred all my mail even junk mail.

I need to add one gun to the list. I also put on the list where they went when I got rid of them. I keep those on the list for about 5 years.

Dirty Steve.........

It not that I'm paraniod, it's just that everyone is out to get me.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 18:08:38 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I know your son is older and you live further west...you did however come to mind due to the nickname....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272074,00.html

medicjim
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 18:25:02 (ZULU)

If you want to become "fighting fit" in 3 15 minute workouts per week, warm up for 5 minutes, do the "Tabata fight gone bad" routine at the bottom right of the attached link, then warm down for five minutes. Do only one round of eight exercises, but go "all out". During the active phase, your pulse should be 90-95% of your max.

Aerobic capacity increases greater than 6 60 minute runs, improvement in anerobic capacity and fat loss are off the charts.

The research has been done. This is not bullshit.

Get a stress test or you are at a very real risk of dying.

(Edited to add: Google "Tabata Protocol" for further information.)

CDC'
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 18:48:32 (ZULU)

CDC & Lt. Chip, I am still in, just have been really busy with work and family stuff. I am climbing Mt. Shasta (14k feet) at the end of June for a cancer fundraising event so I working on making certain that I am not a weak link, not I just need to work on everything else!

Michael
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 19:11:27 (ZULU)

Michael: Cool! Now where's Joe?

CDC'
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 19:18:43 (ZULU)

CDC',

Good link, thanks.

Duman
Monday, May 14, 2007, at 22:46:21 (ZULU)

re: serial numbers

Alas, I don't need to record the serial numbers of my firearms in case I need to claim them from the authorities. In Canada we have firearm registration {sigh}.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 14, 2007, at 23:00:51 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve said, "I also put on the list where they went when I got rid of them. I keep those on the list for about 5 years."

I do that, too, but I don't ever take them off. I want to know where every one I ever got rid of went. Guns have a very long lifetime, and I see no reason to assume that information won't ever be needed. It's in a computer file, and digital storage is cheap, so there's no reason to delete such information.

A character in one of Dan Simmons' recent novels said, "The question is not whether I'm paranoid, but whether I'm paranoid enough."

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 01:07:40 (ZULU)

Over the weekend I picked up a Burris discount certificate at the ASC match. Does anyone have first hand experience with their XTR line of scopes. I am considering the 6x24x50 for a 338 lapua. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

TnyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 02:28:43 (ZULU)

Hey dudes ... have a new found admiration for a shotgun these days.

Practically stole an as new 11-87 Police recently.

Thoughts on the weapon other than keeping it clean?

brian k. sain
Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 16:19:27 (ZULU)

BKS-there are some improved gas seals available, check Brownells. Depending upon age of the weapon, there is a product improved gas piston assembly available. I've got an early one and it still has all the original parts, haven't managed to break anything yet.

If it's the 5 shot version, keep it that way. Made mine into an 8 shot and regretted it down the road-after I mounted a Sure-Fire tac light. The @#$% mount must have been a pintle hitch on a 5 ton truck.

WR Moore
Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 17:38:41 (ZULU)

Brian (In)sain.

Clean it???

Wazzat?

I just shoot mine and put it away. IT workie every time.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 18:24:34 (ZULU)

Lindy,

I should keep two lists. One corrently owned and a second of sold guns. I just don't like the wife knowing how many should be in the safe. She bought most of the as gifts for me so she gets mad when I trade one in for another. Two lists would solve this.

I was contacted by the ATF recently about a GUN THEY HAD. tHEY WANTED TO KNOW IF i HAD ANY (sorry I hit the caps lock)intrest in the gun. It was recovered with some other stolen property.

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 18:35:56 (ZULU)

Anyone concerned with 'global warming' or 'carbon footprint' might take a look at this study:

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

It looks at energy consumed from womb-2-tomb for vehicles (mining the ore, smelting, recycling, etc.). Pretty interesting.

Duman
Tuesday, May 15, 2007, at 19:30:29 (ZULU)

Dang it's dry around here. Nuff said bout that.

Meeeeestor Sain....

Only advise the Boltster has for you on the 11-87 is to pick a couple of loads and make sure they cycle and make it go boom each time. They aren't that finicky but it nebber hurts to make sure.

Gun holder thingy......

Ordered a Dokosil Aggresor case. Will advise actual clear length when it comes in next week from Cabelas. With my daughter getting married next Feb. 29, I've got to watch how many sheckles I spend on stuff.

Time for Bernie Mac Show (need a little comedy after today), Bolt out!

Bolt
Dryer than popcorn fart in......., NC, - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 00:03:34 (ZULU)

[Written by Jim Blasingame, Force Science News provided by The Force Science Research Center. 5/9/07]

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.

Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

--show signs of being armed that officers miss;

--have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;

--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. “If you hesitate,” one told the study’s researchers, “you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street….”

These and other weapons-related findings comprise one chapter in a 180-page research summary called “Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers.” The study is the third in a series of long investigations into fatal and nonfatal attacks on POs by the FBI team of Dr. Anthony Pinizzotto, clinical forensic psychologist, and Ed Davis, criminal investigative instructor, both with the Bureau’s Behavioral Science Unit, and Charles Miller III, coordinator of the LEOs Killed and Assaulted program.

“Violent Encounters” also reports in detail on the personal characteristics of attacked officers and their assaulters, the role of perception in life-threatening confrontations, the myths of memory that can hamper OIS investigations, the suicide-by-cop phenomenon, current training issues, and other matters relevant to officer survival. (Force Science News and our strategic partner PoliceOne.com will be reporting on more findings from this landmark study in future transmissions.)

Commenting on the broad-based study, Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, called it “very challenging and insightful--important work that only a handful of gifted and experienced researchers could accomplish.”

From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gangbangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.

Here are highlights of what they learned about weapon selection, familiarity, transport and use by criminals attempting to murder cops, a small portion of the overall research:

Weapon Choice

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available “was the overriding factor in weapon choice,” the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun “because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being.”

Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”

Familiarity

Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing “most of the time.” Gang members especially started young.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% “regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year,” the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and “street corners in known drug-trafficking areas.”

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers “go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything.”

In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this “may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills,” the study says.

The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these “street combat veterans,” all from “inner-city, drug-trafficking environments,” had taken part in 5 or more “criminal firefight experiences” in their lifetime.

One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, “about 18 before a cop shot me.” Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience “because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again.”

Again in contrast, only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.

Concealment

The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, “most often a female companion.” None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

In motor vehicles, they most often kept their firearm readily available on their person, or, less often, under the seat. In residences, most stashed their weapon under a pillow, on a nightstand, under the mattress--somewhere within immediate reach while in bed.

Almost all carried when on the move and strong majorities did so when socializing, committing crimes or being at home. About one-third brought weapons with them to work. Interestingly, the offenders in this study more commonly admitted having guns under all these circumstances than did offenders interviewed in the researchers’ earlier 2 surveys, conducted in the 1980s and ’90s.

According to Davis, “Male offenders said time and time again that female officers tend to search them more thoroughly than male officers. In prison, most of the offenders were more afraid to carry contraband or weapons when a female CO was on duty.”

On the street, however, both male and female officers too often regard female subjects “as less of a threat, assuming that they not going to have a gun,” Davis said. In truth, the researchers concluded that more female offenders are armed today than 20 years ago--“not just female gang associates, but female offenders generally.”

Shooting Style

Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, “claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights,” the study says.

“They practice getting the gun out and using it,” Davis explained. “They shoot for effect.” Or as one of the offenders put it: “[W]e’re not working with no marksmanship….We just putting it in your direction, you know….It don’t matter…as long as it’s gonna hit you…if it’s up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever….Once I squeeze and you fall, then…if I want to execute you, then I could go from there.”

Hit Rate

More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns, compared to about 40% of the victim officers, the study found. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)

Davis speculated that the offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out, “10 of the total victim officers had been wounded [and thus impaired] before they returned gunfire at their attackers.”

Missed Cues

Officers would less likely be caught off guard by attackers if they were more observant of indicators of concealed weapons, the study concludes. These particularly include manners of dress, ways of moving and unconscious gestures often related to carrying.

“Officers should look for unnatural protrusions or bulges in the waist, back and crotch areas,” the study says, and watch for “shirts that appear rippled or wavy on one side of the body while the fabric on the other side appears smooth.” In warm weather, multilayered clothing inappropriate to the temperature may be a giveaway. On cold or rainy days, a subject’s jacket hood may not be covering his head because it is being used to conceal a handgun.

Because they eschew holsters, offenders reported frequently touching a concealed gun with hands or arms “to assure themselves that it is still hidden, secure and accessible” and hasn’t shifted. Such gestures are especially noticeable “whenever individuals change body positions, such as standing, sitting or exiting a vehicle.” If they run, they may need to keep a constant grip on a hidden gun to control it.

Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals “do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access.”

An irony, Davis noted, is that officers who are assigned to look for concealed weapons, while working off-duty security at night clubs for instance, are often highly proficient at detecting them. “But then when they go back to the street without that specific assignment, they seem to ‘turn off’ that skill,” and thus are startled--sometimes fatally--when a suspect suddenly produces a weapon and attacks.

Mind-set

Thirty-six of the 50 officers in the study had “experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority” to use deadly force “but chose not to shoot.” They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. “It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available,” the researchers concluded.

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team “did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don’t hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant.”

“Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms,” the report states. “In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality.

“Officers never can assume that a criminal is unarmed until they have thoroughly searched the person and the surroundings themselves.” Nor, in the interest of personal safety, can officers “let their guards down in any type of law enforcement situation.”

--------------------

FYI,

Trajan Aurelius

New findings from FBI about cop attackers & their weapons
East Bay, California, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 00:49:03 (ZULU)

We lost another brother officer up this way on Friday. Second officer killed in NH in less than a year. Cpl Bruce McKay from Franconia NH was killed following a "routine" traffic stop. The motorist was well known to him with a long history including assault on a PO, Cpl McKay. The driver said "Get another officer' and then drove off leading to a pursuit. Cpl Mckay forced him to a stop, pepper sprayed him and wrestled with him within the automobile. The Cpl Mckay turned from the car, unknown why exactly, at which point the driver shot him four times in the back and then proceeded to run the Cpl over with his car. A passing witness saw this occurr and stopped to help. While the witnesses son got on the police radio to call for help, the witness retrieved the offices firearm, ordered the suspect to drop his firearm, which he was in the process of reloading. When the guy didn't drop the gun, the witness shot him and killed him. the AG's office has already cleared the witness and called it a justified shooting.

Cpl Mckay,age 48 was a 12 year veteran and left two children and a fiance. Prayers are in order for him and his family. Stay safe brothers and sisters in and out of law enforcement.

Murph

John Murphy
NH, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 02:27:39 (ZULU)

11-87 is an 2005 model.

Remington brought 5 of them to the Mississippi Police Championships and zeroed it only ... but Katrina canked the match.

Now "used" guns ...

They had one left.

18", rifle sights (love 'em), synthetic stock, extended mag version.

Got it for a song.

Been really really close in to the BGs lately. Just the way it's gone.

"I'm too close for missiles. I'm switching to guns"

Maverick - Top Gun

brian k. sain
Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 02:49:14 (ZULU)

Trajan,

That's not new, there was a link to it on here a while back. And, FYI, in the future, please just post a link, so it doesn't take up so much space.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 02:49:24 (ZULU)

BKS: "Practically stole an as new 11-87 Police recently.

"Thoughts on the weapon other than keeping it clean?"

Yeah, NPA on your right target then shoot the far left one first. Recoil becomes your friend.

But you knew that.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 04:25:42 (ZULU)

Trajan, that might have been posted but I hadn't seen it. Thanks for the post. I think we might be neighbors eh?

I had a bit of a problem today on the job. I had my bags on working with the guys because I still enjoy heavy wood framing. I picked up a few sticks of wet and green 6X6 lumber and felt a funny kind of squeeky rip in my stomach. I put them down and drop my bags to feel a golf ball sized lump right above my belly button. I pushed on it and it was the squeeky squishy feeling again but without the rip and it popped back inside. Doc says it's an abdominal hernia. Super. My big match is in two weeks. Now I'm going to see a surgeon tomorrow and hopefully he can fix it really soon. My spring time allergies are turned up right now so every time I sneeze or cough I have to push in on the hole to keep my guts from sticking out again. Wierd feeling. Doesn't really hurt too bad just feels strange. The timing sucks as I've got two really good paying side jobs going, a full plate at my regular job all day and a big two day match with a kick ass prize table at the end of the month.

I'll reschedule the side jobs and shoot the match with a weight belt or wetsuit I don't know man fuck it I'm shooting.

Good score on the 11-87 Brian. I hope things don't get so nasty and up close that you have to use it. I don't know how you LE guys do it really. Hesitation can get you killed but there are so many things you must have to think about and confirm before pulling the trigger. I really don't think I could do it.

Later fellas,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 04:57:47 (ZULU)

Marc,

I knew an old man that kept a smooth, flat piece of 1/4" wood tucked into hit belt to keep his hernia in. You'll probably need something thinner than a weight belt to keep it in place, though. I tried that for broken ribs, once, and it was more of a PITA than it was worth. You might check out your local saddle shop/shoe repair and get them to make you a 4" wide belt out of lightweight chap leather. It'll be soft enought to conform to your body and reduce slippage.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 05:24:56 (ZULU)

Funny you should mention that Travis. I've been thinking about all sorts of different things I could try to hold it together for now. I'll know more after tomorrow when I see the surgeon.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 05:43:12 (ZULU)

Trajan: Thanks for the post. Things like that on mindset and tactical thinking are never the worse for repetition. Burning bandwidth like that is not wasted, in contrast to the stuff that Travis puts on from time to time. Last I heard, he didn't run the website.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 05:52:42 (ZULU)

Guys,

Got to thinking the other day, (I know, I know, I was shocked, too.) since there is so much dissention among the various states in regards to immigration, why not make the head of immigration an elected state office, sorta like a sheriff. I.E.-Each state deals with it the way they want. I'd actually think it'd be better handled regionally, with the parts of the states with a foreign border being their own regions. That way, if, say, ranchers in southern New Mexico are the ones having to deal with illegals, they could have some input, rather than just writing their congressman, who don't give a shit, anyhow.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 06:06:11 (ZULU)

Trajan: Great post.

medicjim: If it is convenient, click my name, go to the "WOD VIDEOS" on the right side of the page and check out those work outs.

Guys: Click on the second video down and the "Bottom to Bottom Tabata" last on the list. Check out the little brunette PT Goddess. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 13:31:59 (ZULU)

'Lito, e-mail inbound from Roster, it'll explain why!

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 14:47:30 (ZULU)

BKS-IIRC, the 18" version is cylinder bore. You might want to check the patterns on that bad boy. My 21" is IC and patterns VERY well. Could always fit choke tubes.

I've got a spare barrel and haven't been able to make up my mind between sending it off to Vang or turning it into an entry gun. But you can't get choke tubes on a 14" 11-87. Or can you? The gas ports are in the way.

WR Moore
Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 15:14:43 (ZULU)

Marc,

Try wearing a tight fitting "Under Armor" shirt. Bound to be more comfortable than a wet suit.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 18:36:53 (ZULU)

WR, CDC ... Copy all.

Will shoot slugs primarily ... friggin' show stopper on auto sheetmetal.

If I do have to go to the OO ... a larger pattern won't hurt as he will probably be running and still somewhat close in. Need all the help I can get the way I shoot ...

Prolly run all slugs in the gun plus a couple OO in a 4 rd. sidesaddle.

Otherwise I'll shoot him with a rifle.

Will pattern the weapon asap.

Thanks guys.

brian k. sain
Wednesday, May 16, 2007, at 18:44:44 (ZULU)

BKS: Plaxco and Awerbuck (sp?) made good videos on combat shotgun. If you think you can get some use from them, email me an address and I'll lend them.

CDC'
Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 04:09:18 (ZULU)

Guys,

Anyone familiar with Lt.Col.(Ret.) Anthony R. Herbert and his book, "Soldier?" BTW, if anyone needs a copy,for free, I have two, they came in a big box of books I purchased at a garage sale.

Also, Any thoughts on the DPMS AP4 LR-308? Is it just as prone to the same problems as the AR-10's recently discussed?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 04:17:05 (ZULU)

Brian,

Here in the Peoples Republic of Kalyfornia, some LE agencies use #4 buckshot instead of #00. Terminal, or terminating, performance is comparable, as is throw weight. As General Pershing said "Birdshot or buckshot, at 20 yards it's still a bloody rathole." (sic)

The difference is that #4 buck have about 22 each .32 caliber ball; #00 has about 9 each .38 balls.

For crowd control the #4 has the edge, especially when you bounce it off the ground about 6 feet in front of the crowd. It won't kill or cripple people, it hurts and leave a mark and the amount of dust kicked up is impressive.

I prefer a Mossberg 590 with ghost ring sights. I replaced the rubber buttpad with a steel one because it shortend the pull a bit and for hitting people. Soldiering is different that LE.

FWIW.

Trajan

Experience is directly porportional to the amount of equipment destroyed.

Trajan Aurelius
Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 04:24:33 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

I know you and the other cops will appreciate this. Click my name.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 11:33:52 (ZULU)

Zeiss Conquest 12X binos are on ebay for $510. The 15X are $560. Both are "Buy it now".

Way cheap.

CDC'
Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 14:51:58 (ZULU)

The advantages of using #4 buckshot is an old wives tale. It might make sense theoretically, but it just doesn't cut it in practical use.

In addition, to use lethal ammunition for crowd control is courting disaster. Not only for the crowd but also for the career of the LEO.

Not just MHO!

Edited to add: #4 buckshot loads contain between 27 to 41 .24 caliber pellets. 00 buck loads contain between 9 and 18 .33 caliber pellets.

ALAN
Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 15:03:08 (ZULU)

Travis,

If it's still available, I'll take the extra copy. I'll forward it on to someone else when I'm through.

CDC', those videos are good. I picked up my own copy on DVD, which makes it easier to skip to different sections.

ALAN, "...to use lethal ammunition for crowd control is courting disaster." Kent State, anyone?

Duman
Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 15:49:17 (ZULU)

Travis,

Yup those were good too.

Chuck,

You interested in going to the range Saturday? I fergot why you aint at work. I am ready to go if the farrier don't come out that morning.

Murph,

My condolences to that family.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 17:33:31 (ZULU)

TV news says that he congress has agreed on a bill that would give instant amnesty and green cards and work permits to all 12,000,000 illegal mexicans. Most (dems and Repubs) are behind it - it is a Ted Kennedy bill (Duh???)

Means that each one of these parasites can bring their families over (all 32 of their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, etc).

Brace yourselves, it's gonna get real expensive to live in the USA, with supplying all these folks with new schooling, free medical benifits, welfare.... and your jobs are going south - er... no, the south is coming to your jobs.

This ain't about picking lettuce, it's about roofing, production lines, factory work, construction, office work, landscaping, retail, and on and on...

... and these political assholes are vying for my vote???

They don't need my vote... they gots 12,000,000 new voters - they get their voter card at the drivers license bureau - remember "Motor Voter"???

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 19:39:39 (ZULU)

Duman,

Done. Just send me an address.

Dirty Steve,

As a former horseshoer, (I'm no farrier than anyone else!) I shouldn't be telling you this, but we actually monitor our clients' communications, specifically so we can show up 15 minutes past the last possible moment for them to actually go do something else with their day.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 22:48:56 (ZULU)

Ken, thanks for the package! I got it, and lo-and-behold there wasn’t any ‘magic dust’ on it. I figured there’d be at least a glow from the uber-reliability infusion they put all that German stuff through, but no. I gotta say though, I do like the follower. Like you said, the baseplate arrangement leaves me cold. I’m gonna do some micrometer work and see how closely the MagPul follower stacks up. Should be interesting. As a side note, the steel mags I took to The Ranch actually seemed to be built sturdier than this one. More beef in the corners to support the feed lips and such. Not fitted and finished nearly to the prettiness degree this one is (parkerized versus Teflon), but the comparison is interesting.

Patron Kittywhacker, or maybe due to our new policy on immigration I should start calling you gatomuerte, you’ve got incoming e-mail on current tribulations in loading. Thought you’d be interested ‘cause I did the study on Varget and thrower accuracy that we’d done before on another powder. The Varget results weren’t NEARLY as pretty. The Hodgdons guy said that if I changed my technique slightly then I’d be back to minimal variability but with Varget. Interesting stuff, I’ll have to wait to see because the numbers don’t lie. He did verify my beliefs though that there is NO difference in kernel shape or size between Varget and H4895.

My right good friend Jim, that was a funny read. Yeah, slingin’ lead at 10 months LOL!

Piggie Pete, good to have you back. Nevermind the hecklers or even the Koches. In my travels, I’ve determined that this is THE place. Although I do spend some time on another site, it’s far from the HOME that this place has become. I got to thinking about it, I was lurking back before I moved here, and I’ve been here almost 10 years now. If SC would only offer a pension plan, I’d be set ;-) This year the ‘incentive’ for my son to push schoolwork through well was that if he did so, he’d get a week-long opportunity to kill as many javalina (wild, small South Texas pigs) as he could. I’m not sure if he really earned it, but it does appear he’ll get that chance at least for a few days.

So no help on my blinking problem, other than superglue, eh?

Bravo
Thursday, May 17, 2007, at 23:06:25 (ZULU)

There are days when things just suck.

I always knew, down deep in my heart, that cleaning was against God's design.

Well, I made the mistake of going against God's design and cleaned up the loading bench two weeks ago. I mean I needed to see what the top looked like after all these years.

And in the process, I lost a die. It must have rolled into the garbage can I keep under the press to catch fired primers.

It wasn't just "a die"... it was a single, $65 forming die that no body carries, and it has to be special ordered, and it's now back ordered for 90 days, cuz every other mother's son NEEDS to have MY DIE right now!!!

SHIT!!

Never, never, EVER clean your loading bench!!

God will punish you for it!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 03:19:38 (ZULU)

re: loading benches

I've learned the hard way not to leave a garbage container *next* to my loading bench. It's too easy for stuff to unintentionally fall in.

Moderate proximity only, so only *intentionally* discarded items end up in the garbage.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 04:09:36 (ZULU)

You alarmists think that "family unification" means that each illegal is good for four family members. Put your mind at rest. Coming from a barrio, I can assure you that everyone in Mexico is Pedro's cousin. They are ALL coming here. The welfare rolls will swell with Democrat voters.

Stop this one.

CDC'
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 04:12:09 (ZULU)

CDC...

They are already saying that if this POS law goes through, it will mean the end of the Republican party, and a guarantee of a full socialist state in 15 years.

We can NEVER assimilate this many people of a different culture, and uneducated, in such a short time.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 04:17:36 (ZULU)

We are letting a huge hostile force into the country. Click for a historical precedent

CDC'
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 04:21:53 (ZULU)

'lito,

Ain't Karma a bitch?

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 04:43:53 (ZULU)

Lito,

Thanks for the heads up. I started to claen up my bench last week but made enough room to work and quit.

CDC,

I'm afraid to go to that link. I know it can not be good news. I hope our President as the guts to VETO it. Knowing full well that he will hand the Presidency to the Demo's with out a fight if he does. But doing the right thing is not easy.

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 06:17:05 (ZULU)

`Lito said,

"We can NEVER assimilate this many people of a different culture...."

Seems to me we can`t hardly assimilate ANY immigrants lately, so no worries with these 12 Mil. + "new" ones, eh? I hate to be flip about it cause it pisses and scares the living shiite out of me, but that`s how I make it through my day. It`s all like a giant game show now. Every time I feel like this I need to buy ammo. Speaking of which, .223 & .308 surplus supplies have largly dried up. Any input hows come?

FYI, currently under test in my basement is a product I haven`t seen mentioned here (less I missed it) called Top Kote. Available at finer wood working stores, it`s made for cast iron and other metal tables and parts for wood working tools to prevent rust and corrosion. Spray on a light coat and let dry, repeat, buff if desired. Forms a somewhat milky, lubricitous, transluncent coating to seal out moisture. Seems to knock the high luster off shiny blueing just a tick. I have sprayed it on a H&R .22 bolt rifle (one application) that I keep in a metal jobsite box in an unheated basement (squirrel medicine) for over a year now. I used to have to wipe it down regularly to keep it from rusting. It seems to pretty much shrug off atmospheric moisture and finger prints. Since it is a lubricating substance, I tried to keep it out of the chamber area. I`m going to try it on my spare carry mags for the pistol next unless someone here can inform me otherwise. Don`t know if it should be used on the `spensive sticks but could be just the thing for that riffle that rides in your pickup day and night.

Next year I`ll work on world peace. Stay tuned.....

Steven Racer
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 06:42:40 (ZULU)

Click my name for the quick way to contact your Congressman and Senators. They'll get so many messages that a full letter would be a waste of your time. "No on Immigration Bill" in the subject line and two lines in the body will be plenty.

Email your friends the contact info. Now would be a good time.

Dirty Steve: You get a chance to observe the social pathologies present in the neighborhoods dominated by our unassimilated neighbors to the south. Tell us what's in store for the younger Hogs, our kids and our grandkids.

CDC'
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 10:00:21 (ZULU)

jc...

>"Ain't Karma a bitch?"<

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

Karma works for those that make wise decisions, and are man enough to stand with their decisions.

... and - I found the die, so I guess Karma ain't "a bitch" these days ;)))

And how's YOUR Karma doing?

I learned my lesson... I trashed my loading bench, and life is back to normal ;)))

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 12:36:23 (ZULU)

CDC -

Thanks for the easy links. I have e-mailed all of my representatives in Congress to voice my opposition to the immigratiobn bill. I urge every Hawg to do the same - and do it NOW!!!

ALAN
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 15:34:32 (ZULU)

Marc, go to either medical supply or big drug store. They make a wrap that holds it together. About 20.00 and works well. See you next week end

This whole who is who in the race world thing. We wont stop having race problems until we stop seperating ourselves based on race. I hear alot of folks who believe in the Almity says things like "Those people" It bothers me in that we are all those people. We all started from same two people. Enough of this.

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller
Ca, - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 17:01:14 (ZULU)

Just checking in... still alive.

Dave King
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 17:53:39 (ZULU)

CDC,

Why do you think I am scared. Hell I work in those "hoods". I can not swing a dead cat with out hitting an illegal. They are for the most part unable to speach properly whether it is in Spanish or English. I can tell you the turds I deal with prefer Budwieser and believe insurance and Drivers Licenses are optional while driving. I stop them and I say how come you do not have a drivers license. They reply, "I don't drive." Well what the hell are you doing now? I was just going to a friends/store or what ever. So I take thier happy ass to jail. That is our policy here. Unlicensed drivers get a ride to jail. We also impound all uninsured motor vehicles. My favorite things to here are. "I just got off the car" I said what the hell were you doing on the car with it moving. "He was throwing bullets at me." I wrote my first two calls like that up as a disturbance before it dawned on me these folks ment he was shooting at me.

Well gunna to work now and toss a couple in the can. Or the Casa Grande as I tell them, when they ask where they are going.

Mike, It aint about race. It's about them coming illegally into the country then getting all sorts of benifits. I don't care where they come from. I want people to come to this country who want to be part of the country not just live off it's tit. I figure you have seen enough of it to know this and may have just come to accepted it. My Hispanic counter parts don't like it either. Officer Ramirez refers to the as them damn beaners. I had an old hispanic man want to know where he could donate money to the minute men. I was arresting his duaghter at the time. He was all for me throwing here in jail. He hated that "La Rasa" and Brown Pride crap. Carlos Mencia is right. It sucks to be a white guy in America.

Dirty Steve......... CDC, Oh I got curious and read it any way.

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 18:15:38 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Every time Dan and I have a major cleanup in the barrelshop, we lose shit. We get this idea that if we put tools in a special drawer and label it, that we will remember where it is in the future. Nope, but sounded good at the time. The week after major cleanup we spend half our time looking for tools, gages, drawers with labels on them, etc... But when the benches are slightly cluttered, somehow we remember the last time we used the whatchamacallit, and find it easily. We call it organised mayhem.

Mike,

Ain't about race here. I'd just like to see these bastards, both immigrants and our government, take the personal responsibility to do it the right way, instead of beg for handouts. Hell, I'm an immigrant, but jumped thru 6 months of legal hoops and a few bucks to do so to gain a work permit, did it the right way..I couldn't even come over during that time of eval to find suitable residence, set up a bank account, check the area out, nothing. And the first thing they told me at the gate was no public funds are available to you, yankee, so pay our high taxes and don't complain, don't even think of welfare buddy...Free health care, ha!!! No, we'll take that out of your pay check too. Oh, and even though you can't collect, pay in that social security..Make your own way, and welcome to the UK, and don't forget every year or so we are going to reevaluate whether you deserve to be here, and ask you for more money for the service. I had to adapt to the culture, learn the language(English ain't the same here, trust me), and start all over on an absolute zero credit rating..I'm not complaining, knew that was the way it was gonna be, and how it should be. Why should the illegals get the benefit of the doubt in the states? Got nothing to do with race, to me..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 18:20:26 (ZULU)

Mike, it's like Dirty Steve said. I don't care what race someone is, it's about being here legally or illegally, and doing what is right versus what is wrong.

You know the size of the little 'burgh I live outside of. Last year there were 12 traffic fatalities in the area (not only the little 'burgh, but in the surrounding county as well) and 8 of them involved illegal aliens.

Personally I've got no use for welfare or government programs, but I understand the concept and sometimes people DO need a hand. People sometimes have 'bad times' hit them in the face (not necessarily through any fault of their own), and can use some support. I'm all for that - that's what I pay into it for. What I've got a problem with is when people DO NOT pay into the system, but use-use-use. We both know the only way that can happen though is by purposefully (and illegally) circumventing the laws of this country.

The person I know that is the absolute hardest case on illegal immigration is a buddy of mine I call 'the canook'. He was from Canada, before LEGALLY immigrating. He's an American citizen now (and has been for several years), and you ought to hear what kind of expensive, demanding hoops he had to go through over years to become a US citizen. His essential feelings are that if we're going to let Mexican Nationals just jump the border and become citizens by 'just because I'm here', then we ought to open it up to the rest of the world to do as well, and watch as what we've got here goes to the thrid world level faster than you can say 'we-come tu madonnas'.

Bravo
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 18:49:17 (ZULU)

Men, sorry I had not read what was going on board before posting. I should have said I was just venting frustration over something else. My bad. Criminlas are criminals in my eyes.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, May 18, 2007, at 19:20:30 (ZULU)

Hawgs -

I just read a report on a new long range target camera system that has been undergoing field testing for over a year amd promises to be a great addition for a shooter like yours truly whose excursions out to the target a 1000 yards usually include crossing arroyos, small canyons, and creeks.

A fully self contained wireless camera/receiver system that will cost $999 for an 1100 yard version and $1499 for a version that is good for up to a 1 mile distance and will let you view even the smallest of bullet holes from the convenience of the firing line.

The shooter who's develpoed this system is G-T-G!

Click on my name and scroll down the Bulletin to the camera article.

ALAN
Friday, May 18, 2007, at 22:43:21 (ZULU)

Army Officer Named One of 'Time' Magazine's Most Influential People

May 17, 2007

BY Beth Reece

"Time" magazine put Capt. Timothy Gittins on its annual list of the world's most influential people this month. Capt. Gittins also received the General Douglas MacArthur Leadership Award in a Pentagon ceremony May 16. Currently commanding the 101st Airborne Division's Company C, 1st Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, Capt. Gittins will report next month to Fort Benning, Ga., where he'll instruct budding leaders in the Captains Career Course. Photo by J.D. Leipold

28 Soldiers receive the General Douglas MacArthur Leadership Award.

WASHINGTON (Army News Service, May 18, 2007) - Among the ranks of Oprah Winfrey, Brad Pitt, the Pope, and even Osama bin Laden stands Army Ranger and combat veteran Captain Timothy Gittins.

"Time" magazine has put Capt. Gittins on its annual list of the world's most influential people this month. Appearing in the May 14 issue, Capt. Gittins is described as "An apt symbol of the heroism that the U.S.'s pair of lengthening wars have demanded of the roughly 1 million men and women who have fought them."

Joined on the list by only one other military member - General David Petraeus, commander of Multi National Forces in Iraq - the 31-year-old said he feels much like any other Soldier.

His leaders voted him into the elite General Douglas MacArthur Leadership Award alumni. The program recognizes company-grade officers who demonstrate General MacArthur's favored ideals of duty, honor and country.

"Tim is a prototype company commander for the war on terror. He's got all the tools of a great leader," said Major Bo Davenport, executive officer for the 101st Airborne Division's Company C, 1st Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, at Fort Campbell, Ky. "His ability to direct the appropriate response, to move fire teams and get additional combat support is exceptional, especially under fire, and he's been there on more than one occasion."

While the recognition by "Time" is an honor, Capt. Gittins said the day before the May 16 Pentagon awards ceremony that it's the approval of his peers and leaders that he values most.

"Receiving the MacArthur award says your superiors believe you're doing all the right things," said Capt. Gittins, who was awarded the Bronze Star for valor for a two-hour battle with insurgents outside of Baghdad last year. He also has a Purple Heart for injuries he sustained fighting the Taliban during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan in 2002.

Currently commanding Company C, 1st Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, Capt. Gittins will report next month to Fort Benning, Ga., where he'll instruct budding leaders in the Captains Career Course.

"It's awesome; it's one of the highlight jobs as a captain because you're bringing the knowledge you gained through command - and, for me, through combat - to the next group of young company commanders right before they go take the guidon.

"You can have a big impact not only on those captains, but also on the Soldiers they will someday command," he said.

Capt. Gittins' call to leadership came two years after he started college, when an empty bank account sent him to the Reserve Officer Training Corps. As part of his Cadet Troop Leadership Training, Capt. Gittins went to the 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, stationed along the Korean Demilitarized Zone.

"I was put in place as an infantry rifle platoon leader in charge of Soldiers, and I instantly knew that was what I wanted to do," he said. "I wanted to be an Airborne Ranger, leading troops."

"I love leading Soldiers, period. But leading Soldiers in combat is even more exhilarating. It's a responsibility that you can't just go home at night and be done with. You live it; your wife lives it," he said.

Taking charge of a company - he's had two now - tops Capt. Gittins' list of memorable Army moments. But his proudest point, he said, came days after the August 26 killing of one of his Soldiers by an explosively formed projectile.

"Less than 24 hours later we caught the guy, but my Soldiers exercised great restraint, knowing full well that he was the one who ordered the killing of one of their buddies," he said. "I was very proud of my Soldiers that day."

Raised on a farm in Iowa, Capt. Gittins is more comfortable in the trenches with his Soldiers than on the red carpet with celebrities and flashing cameras. He confessed to feeling tongue tied behind the mic at "Time" magazine's gala at the Time Warner Center in New York May 8, although he'd been seasoned by interviews with national reporters during his recent deployments.

"In Iraq we got comfortable talking with reporters. We knew there was a certain way we needed to respond, especially out forward," he said "But it felt more dangerous being on the red carpet and not having a chance to step back and think about what I'm saying."

Shelley Gittins said she rates her husband's leadership abilities a "10." "He's so dedicated to everything he does. To me, he's a hero because he says he does what he does so our kids don't have to," she said.

Of his newfound fame, Capt. Gittins said he's not letting it "get to him."

"You can't do this job alone; you can't take credit all by yourself," he said. "I want people to know that I appreciate what they've done to help me succeed."

sinister
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 00:07:00 (ZULU)

It's official, orders in hand. I report in Baghdad 20 June.

sinister
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 00:08:57 (ZULU)

Sinister,

Take care and stay safe. I will pray for your safe return as will the rest of the guys here I am sure will do also..

Dirty Steve.......

Dirty Steve
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:26:07 (ZULU)

Sinister: Godspeed.

Dave King: Would that be Doc King?

CDC'
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 02:20:53 (ZULU)

Sinister,

From an ex-sub sailor, be safe, come home in one piece.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 02:47:44 (ZULU)

sinister,

Stay safe.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 05:00:34 (ZULU)

'lito,

My Karma is fine, as are my ethics.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 05:02:08 (ZULU)

Guys,

Re: Immigration - I hate how people assume you're racist when you comment on how your city is getting too crowded with immigrants and "hyphenated americans" who refuse to assimilate.

I bitch about having a hard time finding a job - in SKILLED trades, and people thinkan I'm a jerk for blaming mostly mexican immigrants. Ask any construction company owner- he'll tell ya, he can get a mexican to do the same job for 25% less! They're not taking just the "stoop labor" jobs, but roofing, bricklaying, excavation, drywall, painting etc.. The local minority run contractor ALWAYS gets the road contracts, and I've never heard of one of his drivers being pulled over and being legal. And now, the government wants to not only allow the illegals to stat, but bring their family over, too! Most of the kids that grew up like I did, in a rural environment can drive a truck, run equipment, roof, build a shed, and the like, but have trouble finding a job where they can make a living wage because of this.

As for the groups that insist on maintaining a seperate national identity, THEY are the problem, not those of us that don't feel we should have to press "1" for english when we make a call in America! I'm tired of having to be "sensitive" to them. I think we're being awful sensitive, as it is.

The only place I've EVER observed a large group of people from various ethnic backgrounds all getting along with no bullshit about it is in the military. That's the ONLY place I've ever been able to walk up to damn near anyone and get directions somewhere, are ask the time of day without having to deal with horseehit of one for or another. What is there about this particular model melting pot that makes this stuff "work"?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 07:14:28 (ZULU)

CDC...

Yeah - that bum is "Doc King".

jc...

Yeah sure.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 12:55:17 (ZULU)

Sinister: WY6 and come back on two feet.

Border issue....it's like watching "Red Dawn" in slow motion.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 13:57:38 (ZULU)

Doc King: I'm glad you stopped by. In April MarkS posted a marksmanship question. I posted six or eight replies. If you are of a mind, your comments would be appreciated.

Duman: Did you ever get a chance to watch the Gunsite shotgun video?

CDC'
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 14:09:32 (ZULU)

Hey fellas. Just moved to Phoenix. Lots of places to shoot in the area it seems. Anyone have any advice on which are better than the other to help me narrow it down? I'd drive 40-50 miles if it meant less crowded conditions. Any advice would be appreciated.

John Bechtell
PHX, AZ, - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 16:32:45 (ZULU)

Gents,

Sinister, be careful over there. We would like you back intact and vertical, please.

The Border: As far as I am concerned the politicians are doing nothing to stem the tide. They are doing everything to give the illusion that they are "doing something" about the problem. We have been sold out for power and greed.

Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 17:36:05 (ZULU)

Sinister

Take care..

CDC'

Yeah, as 'lito states.... it's me.

I'll root around and see if I can find that Marksmanship question from MarkS..

Dave King
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 21:36:24 (ZULU)

Sinister: Be safe, May the Lord protect you.

All -- kinda off topic and long, but required reading:

Jay Leno wrote this; it's the Jay Leno we don't often see....

"The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given the source, right?

The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the president. In essence 2/3s of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change.

So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, ''What we are so unhappy about?''

Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter? Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job? Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?

Maybe it is the ability to drive from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state? Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?

I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.

Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames thus saving you, your family and your belongings.

Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes , an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90 percent of teenagers own cell phones and computers.

How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world? Maybe that is what has 67 percent of you folks unhappy.

Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have , and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.

I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled u ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks?

The commander in chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me? Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad?

Think about it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the "Media" told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day.

Make no mistake about it. The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go.

They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an ''other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable'' discharge after a few days in the brig.

So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans? Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts. How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells , and when criticized, try to defend their actions by "justifying" them in one way or another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!

Stop buying the negativism you are fed everyday by the media. Shut off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as a country. There is exponentially more good than bad.

We are among the most blessed people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative."

"With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, "Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?"

Jay Leno...."

Take care all --

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, Keep America - God Fearing, Armed and Free!!!.. - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 21:57:18 (ZULU)

Ok Guys,

Information is out and entries are open for SniperQuest07 ! This is going to be fun. Information can be found at:

www.badlandstactical.net/SniperQuest07Information.htm

or click on my name.

Hope to see you there!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 23:03:39 (ZULU)

Ken:

It is easy for Jay Leno to be optimistic and happy when he is a wealthy guy who lives in a gated community.

The poll result was that 69% of the people didn't like where the country is headed. It didn't ask if we were living well.

The Titanic was doing well...until the iceberg.

The economy was doing well...until the scrash and the depression.

I guess according to Leno we shouldn't worry about our future until we no longer have BigMacs. Leno is another dolt who measures our success by what we have, forgetting that our children won't be left with the same country.

Hank
Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 23:08:57 (ZULU)

I've wanted to go shoot at Badlands for quite awhile now and I think this match will be the time. I just need a partner that I can count on to shoot better than me. Mike Miller? Joe Ducos?

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 06:33:07 (ZULU)

Just got back from turkey huntin...Only saw hens,and those are a dont touch for spring season.Come back w/an empty gamebag....Broke my 3 yr streak.

<"Also, Any thoughts on the DPMS AP4 LR-308? Is it just as prone to the same problems as the AR-10's recently discussed?">

Travis,

I own a DPMS Panther LR 308....as far as DPMS goes,pretty good stuff.

Great bunch of people.Any problem,just call them and they really try to fix the problem(S).

One issue to watch is the mags...There is an "old" and a "new" style.

The tabs on the front of the old mag that keep the follower in place need to be trimmed back and rounded on the corners.I just ordered another 19 rd mag and it looks identical to the "old" style mag so I cant say if the "old" stock is used up or not.

Knights SR 25 mags also work in the DPMS.

UnPat

UnPat
WI, USA - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 10:54:20 (ZULU)

Sinister: Let's be careful out there, sir!

Wes wrote: "The Border: As far as I am concerned the politicians are doing nothing to stem the tide. They are doing everything to give the illusion that they are 'doing something' about the problem."

Exactly - that's what politicians do. To actually DO something about the problem would require the expenditure of resources. Politicians get re-elected by creating the appearance of GIVING stuff to their constituents, not by expending their tax dollars on intractable problems.

A deputy who works for a lawman of my acquaintance was tailing a suspected drug load down a highway in his border country. They have about 15 deputies to patrol 3300 square miles.

He found himself looking down the barrel of a tripod-mounted M2 .50-caliber machine gun in the back of the trailing Suburban. He decided to back off. Waaaaay off. Good decision.

They don't have the resources to cope with that level of activity, and there are no prospects that they'll get any.

We can secure the borders a lot better - but we lack the political will to do so. Actions - and inactions - have consequences, and we will find the consequences of that inaction to be increasingly serious.

Lindy
The Northern Occupied Territories of Mexico, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 13:41:04 (ZULU)

Viva la Reconquista!

CDC'
Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 14:28:21 (ZULU)

Yesterday, I relented and let Dirty Steve chauffer me to the range. All is now well in DPMS AR10 land. The previous malfunctions involving the extractor ripping over the case rims seems to have been solved. I saw it as a timing problem and added a few grains of weight to the recoil buffer to retard the rearward movement of the bolt carrier. That seemed easier than adding gizmos to the bolt carrier, with the added benefit that nothing can ever come loose in the upper housing or fall into the trigger group. I can definitely hear and feel the difference in the buffer swooshing back and forth, and I didn't have a single failure to extract in over a hundred rounds. It was fun to use a mildot holdover and start ringing the gong at five hundred yards as fast as you could get back on target! Does anyone know of a dealer that actually has a 20" upper in stock? The 16" is fun, and has a very high LCCDI factor, but I just can't get the velocity I need for the boolit. I just got rid of some property, and, rather than spend the money on anything stupid like new tires or CV-joint boots for the truck, I'd rather get something beneficial like a new upper for the AR10. LMK.

Oh, it helped to use only LC or WCC cases. The one case that I found that had any rim damage whatsoever had a PMJ headstamp.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 14:41:02 (ZULU)

Did DPMS recently buy out ArmaLite or vice-versa?

I've never heard of a DPMS AR10!

Or would that be something like an LRB M1A? ;)

Just being sarcastic, but there IS a difference!

BTW Charles, I'm glad to hear that you've fixed the extraction problem. It certainly goes to show that there's more than one way to skin a cat, but be aware that there's no way that a carrier weight system can possibly fall out of the bolt carrier and drop down into the trigger group. Just an FYI :)

ALAN
Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 15:33:09 (ZULU)

Lindy...

>"He found himself looking down the barrel of a tripod-mounted M2 .50-caliber machine gun in the back of the trailing Suburban. He decided to back off. Waaaaay off. Good decision. They don't have the resources to cope with that level of activity, and there are no prospects that they'll get any.'"

Now, I might be waaaaaaay off base on this... but I wonder if it is possible that some of the politicians "might", in some little way, directly or indirectly, have some benefit from this drug traffic - like donations from "supporters", or more money flowing into their districts...

Naw, what could I have been thinking. Our politicians are way above that kind of stuff!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 15:58:31 (ZULU)

A good watch...

Some children are VERY lucky!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 17:16:45 (ZULU)

Lito,

Neat video. Thanks.

CDC', IIRC, I did view the Gunsite shotgun video. All those videos were of value, and I've since picked up a few. I really like the one by 'Awerbuck'. He's a smooth, no nonsense kind of guy.

Anyone thinking of tearing into the front end of a GMC 4WD pickup, be sure it's something you really want to do. I'm off to NAPA. Again...

Duman
Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 19:57:38 (ZULU)

One down, nine to go...

Saturday, May 19, 2007 8:58 p.m. EDT

McCain Goes Nuts Near Senate Floor

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. and Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, launched into a shouting match during a Thursday Capitol Hill meeting, where reportedly the presidential candidate dropped the "F..." word and more.

According to reports in the Washington Post and the New York Post, Cornyn apparently got the former POW’s attention when he raised the issue about the number of judicial appeals that illegal immigrants could receive.

In a meeting room just off the Senate floor, McCain opined that Cornyn was purposely raising petty objections to a compromise plan then being hammered out between Senate Republicans and Democrats and the White House.

"This is chickens--- stuff," McCain fired at Cornyn, according to the news reports. "You've always been against this bill, and you're just trying to derail it."

Not to be outdone, Cornyn accused McCain of being too occupied campaigning for president to take part in the negotiations.

"Wait a second here," Cornyn said to McCain. "I've been sitting in here for all of these negotiations and you just parachute in here on the last day. You're out of line."

"F--- you! I know more about this than anyone else in the room," McCain reportedly rejoined.

McCain, who has missed 42 votes this year, hasn't been intimately involved in the comprehensive immigration reform debate for months.

Reportedly, the shouting match was played out in front of a bipartisan group of senators and aides who had gathered in the meeting room.

Pundits suggest that the temper flare may reopen the can-of-worms that is McCain's "anger-management problem."

Brian Jones, a spokesman for the McCain campaign, acknowledged that a "spirited exchange" did take place.

"Negotiating such a large and important piece of legislation can be intense, and a spirited exchange did occur," Jones said. "[McCain] is somebody who feels very passionate about his work and about solving the problems facing the country."

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 21:44:52 (ZULU)

Alan. It says "DPMS" on the receiver. It's a .30 caliber rifle, patterned like the Armalite AR-15. All tissue is not Kleenex, but we call it "kleenex" just the same. Oh, BTW, look under the bolt carrier. There's a big gaping hole that things can fall into the lower trigger housing group through. But, thank you so much for correcting me.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, May 20, 2007, at 22:36:26 (ZULU)

Lito,

I love it when the Demos make an arce out of themselves. McCain my say he's a republican but he aint. He was Air Force but talks like a Sailor. I'm getting mixed signals. ;)

Dirty Steve.....

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Monday, May 21, 2007, at 01:46:32 (ZULU)

Any of youse guys tryed the speer gold dot "short barrel" ammo, I just ordered some. I expect less flash and more velocity. Else why bother?

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Monday, May 21, 2007, at 03:29:10 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt -

I was not trying to belittle you by posting what I did. If you've got an ego difficulty that will not allow you to accept an opposing point of view just say so. I'll gladly scroll past your mutterings to avoid hurting your feelings in the future.

The object of my post was not to correct you. I really hoped that I made that clear. Evidently I didn't succeed. If you believe that I singled you out just so I could correct you in print you must think way too highly of yourself. As a matter of fact, I really don't give a fuck what you do or what you think!

I posted what I did because -

You had already confused at least two people on the DR by attributing the problems that you were having with your DPMS .308 to the AR10 and that kind of inaccuracy tends to reflect badly on the site. I'm certainly not the site police, but when people post misleading statements on the DR they generally get corrected. It's happened to me in the past and I expect it will happen again, but I didn't get my skivvies wedged up my ass on account of it. That's the way it's been going on around here since before I arrived on the scene, and it's the way it should be! The AR10 and the DPMS .308 are two totally different firearms and should not be mistaken. Your Kleenex analogy is pure bullshit and you know it. You don't call a Mossberg 500 an 870 do ya? Nor do ya identify a Model 70 as an M700. WTF makes you think that ArmaLite and DPMS should be treated any differently?

And -

You've dreamed up an imaginary problem by declaring that parts of a carrier weight kit can drop through the bottom of the bolt carrier and get into the trigger mechanism. If you'd actually taken the time and made any effort to research it you'd soon see that this is physically impossible. The weights are just too damned big! But again, it's really not what you think that matters in this situation. What matters is your dissemination of inacurate information on this forum.

It's not about you, Charles. It's about what you post. Get it?

ALAN
Monday, May 21, 2007, at 05:11:32 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: McCain was a Navy pilot. Alan: bite me.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, May 21, 2007, at 13:37:21 (ZULU)

Sheesh!

I leave for a six day prairie dog safari in 'yote-bait's AO and when I get home you guys are having another pie-fight. It's a shame you can't meet each other in person and settle this petty BS. I realize that sometimes feathers do get ruffled even tho there is no intent do that. Why don't you guys swap phone numbers and hash it out over the phone?

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The sunny Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Monday, May 21, 2007, at 15:41:27 (ZULU)

Doc: There's no pie fight. I was just commenting on having fixed a problem I was having, and some pedantic blowhard decides to take me to task for a semantic mistake. I figger I've paid enough dues to not get lectured. I told him to buzz off. Conversation over. Speaking of which, does anyone know of anywhere that has a DPMS 20" upper in stock? The 16" is not going to cut it. Usig ammo that works well at 1k is dropping WAAAAY too much at 5 and 6 out of the mini-tube. Any direction would be appreciated

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Monday, May 21, 2007, at 18:29:13 (ZULU)

He's absolutely right Doc. There's no pie fight here!

I'm more than willing to make allowances for some disgruntled "public servant" with a piss-poor attitude towards those who pay his salary and who can't even correctly identify what he's shooting his mouth off about. I'm truly sorry that I even got involved in it from his initial whine about the subject. I really should have known better, considering the source.

Consider it closed!

The pedantic blowhard
Monday, May 21, 2007, at 19:12:58 (ZULU)

Charles,

You could try DPMS factory direct....1-800-578-3767

Not sure about order fill time.

Last I heard on complete rifle orders w/options was 8-12 weeks.

Curious to hear how a 20 shoots...

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 01:44:25 (ZULU)

Sinister, Stay Safe sir.

Charlie Hunt, What's new?

SniperQuest07, Glad this is on again. I am going to try and make it.

SFC Pete Carpentier Jr
C.C., TX, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 04:08:03 (ZULU)

I bought a Lee hand priming tool because they're cheap. It started to have trouble seating them in completely even with the lever completely depressed. This happened more and more until it was each time which is a pain because the piece of brass gets stuck in the shell holder. I ordered another one, because they're cheap, and on the fourth primer it got one stuck in sideways. I thought it was just having trouble seating as the last one did so I pressed the hell out of it. I don't know how it didn't ignite. The exposed side is mashed flat and slightly squeezed out on two sides and the flashole is sealed off. Now I need to get the sucker out so I can have my shell holder back and continue using the tool.

How do I kill the primer so that I can punch it out safely? Should I squirt some WD-40 in there or would water alone do it?

Thanks fellas,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 04:48:05 (ZULU)

MarcS...

>"How do I kill the primer so that I can punch it out safely? Should I squirt some WD-40 in there or would water alone do it?"<

It ain't that easy, Dude.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/killprimers.shtml

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 05:05:14 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt,

Call Pac-Nor and have them make you a new barrels for the AR.

Here's the link: http://www.pac-nor.com/ar/

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 05:06:45 (ZULU)

Thanks for the linkie 'Lito. I guess the good news is that it's a Fed 210M primer and the tester was able to kill each of them with a 24 hour test and some only required a few minutes.

I'm out of time here. I need to finish loading 160 rounds by Thursday for the match this weekend so I NEED THAT FUCKING SHELL HOLDER NOW!!! I think I'll soak it and then try to figure out a safe way to punch it while expecting it to pop.

I wonder if I should just buy the Sinclair priming tool now or go through 2 or 3 more of these and then buy the Sinclair after LOL.

Do any of you guys ever use the press to seat primers instead of a hand tool?

My friend had Pac Nor barrel and bed his 700 ADL action into a McMillan stock he got cheap from E-bay cuz it was ugly. It's a .223AI and it shoots the tiniest little groups I've ever seen. Makes ground squirrels and crows turn inside out too.

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 05:40:33 (ZULU)

MarcS- I'm a barbarian, all I use to seat primers is a loading press. A little practice and you'll develop feel as to when the primer is at bottom.

For a great many folks, a separate operation and gadget to seat primers is a waste. They can't shoot well enough to tell the difference. The tool folks sure aren't gonna tell you that-they want to sell you more tools!

WR Moore
Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 06:09:39 (ZULU)

Jc, thanks, I thought of that. What I'm really wanting is an entire upper receiver assembly so I can snap it on and off. I like the handiness of the 16", but the loss of range is a bit off-putting.

Why is it that public servants are always "disgruntled"? Can they be "gruntled"? I'd like to be "gruntled" a while, might be an excellent state of mind. I'll ponder that while I go clean my DPMS AR-10.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 06:18:22 (ZULU)

MarcS...

I've never owned a Lee hand priming tool (I never owned ANY Lee equipment - on purpose!)...

... but looking at the picture of it on Midway, it looks like the case and shell holder will come off of the tool together.

If so, just slip the shell holder with the case in it, into the press, and use a neck sizing die to push out the crooked primer.

It will not go off. Been there, done it, got the tee shirt.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 14:17:15 (ZULU)

Lee Primer - I have three, never had an issue with them, and I've got twenty thou or so loaded rounds. I don't have one in hand, but I think you can push down on the round plastic primer tray portion while holding the base rigid and it allows the shell holder to be slipped out of the tool.

Also...if you are using water as a primer killer, adding dish soap will massively increase the speed at which it neutralizes it...surfactant effect.

BTW - the ~$25 lee powder measure works extremely well...I now have three of them too. Most lee stuff is junk, but a few gems exist in the inventory.

medicjim
Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 15:24:56 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Primers are remarkably robust. I've done things that you ain't 'sposed to do, without any problems. However, I have eye and ear protection on, when attempting to un-stick live primers.

As far as hand-held primers, 'Lito had suggested one from K&M. Here's the link:

http://www.precisionreloading.com/KMProducts.htm

Buy cheap, buy twice. FYI, YMMV

Duman
Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 16:25:08 (ZULU)

UnPat, Thanks for the number! I'll get on the horn with them right away. Pete C.---If you're shooting the Sniperquest, I'm just gonna paint targets. I'm not shooting against you. Nope. Ain't gonna happen. I've seen how you dope wind. Any chance you being up this way around the first weekend of June? The gun show is gonna be at the Alzafar Shrine this month, as the Airport Convention center is being renovated, or sumthin'.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 17:06:59 (ZULU)

Primer seating>>>>>>> I use my Dillon 550 as it was made by the master Mike Dillon. I have had no problems and it mskes first rate ammo. Atleast as far as I can tell. 1 1/2" groups at 500 yards is about all I can expect. Most run 2" or so, I would rather spend my time shooting that worrying about seating depth. Has any one ever tested ammo loaded with a Sinclair tool and loaded on a Dillon and compared the results? Just wondering. I bet there is not a tinkerers bit of damn between them.

Oh it is my understanding that modern primers are harder to kill. Than the ones made twenty years ago. So where gloves and goggles and convince your nieghbor to do it. Ha.

Doc, How did the Prairie Poodle shoot go? I have been hankering to fly up to Wyoming and shoot some. I went looking for property up there last year and regreted not taking a gun. Of course I wouldn't have looked at nearly as much property if I had.

Pie Fights can be fun. One thing every one should be a where of is most of us cops are very thick skinned and we tend to think everyone else is too. A citizen once came on a ride with me and was amazed at how we spoke to each other. He told me why do you and that other officer have it in for each other? I replied, "That big goofy queer son-of-a-bitch? I have nothing against him, hell he's gunna meet us for dinner".

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 17:34:19 (ZULU)

Hand-held priming tools can be convenient if you have a single stage press.

They allow you to prime bunches (hundreds to thousands) of cases while you watch Television...

But they don't offer any other advantages.

They are touted by that famous group that re-defined the concept of "Compulsive Anal Retentive".

Child psychologists believe that C.A.P. comes from early potty training problems. Individuals are worried that they are not doing their poopies with enough perfection to please mommy and daddy.

People with "C.A.P." spend their entire lives trying to retro-please mommy and daddy, by trying to do everything else with perfection... which there is never enough of!

Unfortunately, many shooters with this psychological problem have gotten involved with accuracy shooting, and have sought loading tools that will comply with the hidden needs that are consistent with underlying "C.A.P." problems.

One of these tools is the hand priming tool. They can be bought for the price of a good match barrel from Shilen. The hand priming tool is worshiped and stroked as the answer to "perfection" in priming (to make up for lack of perfection in poopies).

Paragraphs and pages are written about how you can seat primers with a "gentle, soft touch" (sounds like a Scott toilet paper ad).

But primers don't need a "gentle, soft touch", they just need to be seated to the bottom of the pocket.

"Pre-stressing" the pellet is sheer bullshit.

When the firing pin hits the primer @ eleventy eight feet per second... that pellet comes apart explosively in about 2/1,000,000s (two millionths) of a second, and exerts about 500 to 700 REAL pounds of force (NOT psi) on the case, trying to push it out the barrel (thank the rim or shoulder for stopping the case from being part of the projectile).

So no matter what they say, don't waste your time sandpapering the tips of your fingers like a safe cracker, so you can "feel the primer seat"... just seat the sucka to the bottom of the pocket, and get on with loading (or change the TV channel to a better movie).

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 17:39:40 (ZULU)

Lito,

Agreed. I only brought up the KM link as an example of a more robust primer tool. I can live without the dial indicator version.

It is, though, lacking fuzzy dice ......

Duman
Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 18:56:59 (ZULU)

Duman...

>"It is, though, lacking fuzzy dice ......"<

You made me laugh!!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 19:00:23 (ZULU)

Patron Sinister: God be with you and your men, I almost feel sorry for the badguys. Almost.

Chuck, I don’t know where a 20” upper is for that DPMS is of yours, but since I caught this comment: “I've never heard of a DPMS AR10! Or would that be something like an LRB M1A? ;)” let me recommend a 22” upper…. On an LRB receiver. If LRB ever did make an M1A, it’d be a wide margin better than the Sproingfeld variety I’d wager! And yes, that’s just me poking fun at both the ratguns (ratgun: oversized mousegun, which I suppose is poking fun at mouseguns too!) and Sproingfeld.

I did something not long ago that really hurt my ego – I told someone to look into a ratgun and forgo the ’14 for his particular application. Sometimes facts hurt. But speaking of hurting (in this case the pocketbook) did anyone else notice that Ron Smith is now doing some nifty forged M14 parts? Between LRB and Smith, it appears we’ll have all-new M14 major components not too long from now. Gas cylinders and rear sight assemblies are out presently (improved, bolt stops as well), forged bolts are forthcoming. Oprods are slated after that.

Patron ‘Lito, what’s this lucky kids stuff? I was expecting a video of Paris Hilton ;-) I wonder if Gucci makes a purse that matches with a dayglow orange prison jumpsuit LOL!

Politicians? Well, I liked the comment on gun confiscation I read recently: "Hell, let's just start shooting the bastards. Let's get this crap over with while I'm still young enough to march in the victory parade down Pennsylvania Avenue." It does appear to me that people have been voting too much for ‘who can win’ and too little for ‘the best candidate’ or even ‘the candidate that best reflects their values and ideals’. Let’s hope we don’t eventually come to the same position on national sovereignty that the aforementioned guy came to on confiscation. Personally, I wouldn’t vote for mccain using someone else’s ballot (note: using someone else’s ballot is a trick many demopublicans use – oh, are you Mister Fuzzy McBarker?).

LEE priming tools: I have ‘em and use them (one set up for large primers, another set up for small primers), although I’ve never worn one out. If I’m doing serious priming, I’m doing it at the bench – on an RCBS bench-mounted auto-prime ‘cause it has multiple 100 primer tubes that I switch QED. The feel on that big lever (press DOWN to prime!) is tremendous – no question when you hit the bottom of the primer pocket, even if there’s a half-dozen loads worth of carbon build-up in the primer pocket. That having been said, I’ve primed thousands and thousands of rounds on the LEE units. Mostly pistol brass, while watching a movie ;-)

I did a study recently on Varget and my thrower, weighing 100 charges to the closest 0.0015 grains (yeah, really). The extreme spread ‘wasn’t pretty’. The Hodgdons rep told me to discard any charge that I detected kernel cutting and I’d see 1 or 2 tenths of a grain variation – but I haven’t tried that yet. IMO, there are better powders for use with a thrower, but I’d be more than interested to hear of anyone that has a KNOWN way of throwing Varget (or Varget-like powders) such that there’s minimal variation.

Oh, and BTW, I did get my opinion verified – H4895 is dimensionally identical to Varget.

Bravo
Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 19:04:28 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

We had a great time. The 700 mile drive is a killer for an old fart like me; but it's worth it. We drove out Tuesday, shot Wednesday thru Saturday, and drove home Sunday. Kansas has great highways with very little traffic and the southern route we take is really scenic. The Cimarron National Grassland is over 108,000 acres with elevations ranging from 3,150 to 3,700 feet. 'yote-bait does a great job of getting you to the best spots and that really helps. We would never have found some of the better spots without his help. This year was the best and we've been going out every year since 2001. If you want some more particulars hit me offline and I'll be glad to help.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The cloudy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 19:09:00 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I'd be interested in seeing the data for those loads. If you dumped it into a spreadsheet, could you send it my way?

Thx!

Duman
Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 19:22:28 (ZULU)

Charles...

More than welcome.

Pagin thru the DPMS catalog,I'm sure they'll send ya one w/ the order,I noticed a couple things...308 barrels arent offered in a 20 in version,but there is a 300 saum barrel in 20...so it shouldnt take them too much to do a couple things...cut down a 24in or take a blank for the 300 and chamber in 308...There is also a neat little new product called"The Reciever Rug" and basically this is an injection formed rubber gasket to lay over the trigger group to prevent blown primers and other debri from falling into said trigger group...

Back to barrells real quick,Order fill time is gonna depend alot on the "options"...Flutin,Cryo treatment,s/s bull,4130chrome,then there is the type of finish,teflon or phosphate...All I am sure they may have told ya...There were some people that went the full route and on a new complete rifle order it would take up to 8-12 weeks.Souldnt take so long to just get an upper....Those interested in the R/R rug...www.dpmsinc.com. also feel free to check out the "Trophy Room" or "Dead Animal" section...Last I saw,I was the only "Pat" listed.Nice Lil buck.

Unpat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Tuesday, May 22, 2007, at 19:42:35 (ZULU)

Click my name for Immigration Poll.

Just for clarification, what would be my best choice for an AR in .308? I'll be at least a couple months from buying, so feel free to suggest something that is not commonly available yet, but YOU have thoroughly tested. Would also like suggestions on a .223 AR. These will mostly be used for hunting coyotes out to around 500 yards. I might get another upper to use it for IPSC 3 gun, but I dunno. Would a mini-14 be better for IPSC?

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 00:04:33 (ZULU)

Travis:

Unless they've changed, the Mini-14 is notorious for wandering zero as the barrel warms up. Not a good choice for IPSC 3-gun match with targets in excess of 50 yards. AR15 pattern in .223 Rem is the popular choice for IPSC 3-gun (for good reason).

I had a Mini-14, got tired of the wandering zero, sold it, bought an AR15 pattern rifle. Happy I did.

The AR15 pattern also has much more accessories available, easier to rebarrel, and easier to clean.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 01:31:26 (ZULU)

Fallkniven F1 is a fine little field knife. Tough, small enough to take along and holds an edge. I can recommend it. Click my name.

Pablo is correct that the Lee priming tool can be disassembled without removing crossed up primer from the primer pocket. Using the Lee tool is an aquired knack.

CDC'
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 03:36:09 (ZULU)

IPSC 3 gun- we used the Mini as a service rifle for years. I don't recall any of them with a wandering zero, but I don't know what you're shooting at.

I'd also suggest going with an AR pattern for one major reason: timed reloads. The AR pattern is faster to speedload than a Mini-unless you're running assault courses where you can load on the move. A chrome lined barrel will also have a longer accuracy life than a plain steel barrel-that'll make a difference when you're doing rattle-battles. We got a graphic demonstration of this a few years back when we bought some brand X AR's with plain steel barrels.

Back in the dark ages, when there was still some practicality in IPSC, I used to design courses to have some basis in reality and therefore somewhat weapons system neutral. There were folks who hated me for this.

WR Moore
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 04:01:42 (ZULU)

Travis,

Information on any AR,Make,Model,Caliber...You name it.If it has to do w/ an AR could be found at ar15.com....You dont have to be a member to read the posts or search threads and forums...Salt optional.

My own rifle is a DPMS Panther LR 308,the one with the 24 in S/S Bull barrel...Awesome critter killer.Only downfall to it is ...its a TANK compared to my Win Mod 70.By the time ya get a scope and good rings,full mag,your on the other side of 13 lbs...On really good days usin a range bag/rucksack for a rest I am gettin 1.5 in spreads 200 yrds...a bad day it opens up to 3in groups and this is with usin factory 150 gr soft point huntin ammo.I dont reload...yet.Some adj triggers dont fit the LR 308.I have a JP adj trigger in mine,Love it.Set at approx 3.5 lbs...If ya go w/ a DPMS,set a few bucks aside and do the trigger work...its really worth it.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 05:32:00 (ZULU)

Thanks for the priming advice guys. I got it out no problem. The shell holder comes out of the tool very easily and you know how if you've bought one before since they require assembly. My problem was getting the case out of the holder with the primer protruding out proud of the case head. I've heard this shell holder is different than the ones made for a press so I didn't even try to put it in the press. I just soaked it in water for five minutes, stood it up on a piece of wood and set my flashole deburring tool down inside through the mouth. I put on some leather gloves, wrapped it up in a towel, looked away, then popped the deburring tool handle with a light hammer tap.

That primer was completely distorted and mashed up. The compound inside had squeezed out a little bit and the anvil was no longer recognizable. I guess a slow mash doesn't have the same affect as the sharp and fast impact from a firing pin.

Then I got back to priming and finished 200 in about 15 minutes without a problem. This one works much better than the first one ever did so I think it will be fine. I still think I'm going to try doing it with the press though.

Powder throwing- I use a Redding and I forget if it's called a 3-BR or BR-30 but it's meant for rifle cases and I got a little pistol metering chamber with it. It throws within half a grain at worst with H4350 and Varget. I throw them low and then trickle up to target weight. I feel it hang up and cut through some granules on most throws but I have just been forcing it through and ignoring it. Is that wrong?

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 06:00:19 (ZULU)

There's no way to throw charges of extruded powders without cutting some of those itty bitty sticks. Wouldn't worry about it.

There was a comparative test of a number of powder measures in the American Rifleman some time back. The Lyman 55 was the most consistant throwing IMR 4895. From what's been said, I'd guess that means it'd be the most accurate of those measures tested with Varget too.

WR Moore
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 07:09:36 (ZULU)

Guys,

Heard a couple of good ones today:

"Boy, you're like MacGuyver in reverse. You can ruin anything"

"A tool in my hand is worth two wherever I left them."

Unpat,

I know about AR15.com, but I'm interested in accuracy. Folks here will also tell ya if somethin's a POS, regardless of whether or not it's the flavor of the week. On the other site, I gotta wonder whether or not half of those guys ever get their shirt muddy when they shoot, much less their gun. Thanks for tryin' to help.

MarcS,

The RCBS powder thrower does the same thing. With some powders, I wonder if I'm not LITERALLY making powder out of my powder.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 08:07:51 (ZULU)

The ~$25 Lee powder measure doesn't cut long grain powders and is pretty darn accurate (it has some sort of soft wiper on the cutoff. It beat my RCBS by a long shot.

Sometimes, cheap doesn't mean junk.

medicjim
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 15:06:51 (ZULU)

Good news guys My builder called and said HS has shippid my stock.So I hope in a few weeks it will be together.I think we are still waiting on the reamer.

Also has it been windy any place else for you guys.Its been about thirty MPH winds for bout three weeks now.

Jon Kujawa
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 15:52:10 (ZULU)

Travis: Unpat's not kidding. The DPMS is awesome. Mine is a 16", not as long as his (don't even go there!) but it will drill raggedy holes at a hunnert all day long. And it shoots sub-MOA out to 500, which is as far as I've printed it, so far. It is a tad on the weighty side, but not so much more than a GAP with a Nightforce on it. Yes, sir, I do like my DPMS AR-10. Oh, Sorry! LR 308.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 15:54:26 (ZULU)

medicjim,

"Sometimes, cheap doesn't mean junk."

You're right. Nuggets of information like yours are valuable, and appreciated.

In my experience, nearly every company has a gem or two in it's lineup. The 'halo' effect of bad products seems to overshadow those gems, to the point where I won't even look at many products a company makes. Just my experience. Counter examples are always welcome.

Duman
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 16:11:14 (ZULU)

Q: Have any of youz had surgery on your hands/fingers? I tore a tendon, in my finger, while catching a football. Finger won't straighten out anymore. Any advice or experience?

Duman
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 19:03:55 (ZULU)

Duman, that's a bit of 'spin' on what happened, eh? Why not just tell everyone that the football hit you in the nose and be done with it?

I guess you didn't get the message I left on your phone ;-)

Thanks for the info on throwers! I'm going to do this lot the 'hard way' 'cause I'm under the gun..... but the next batch is going to be better one way or the other.

Dang, if I'd known about the LEE, I would have put that on the last order.

ETA: I just looked up the LEE measure on their website. Should I assume you're talking about the 'perfect' one, or the 'disk' model? I'm inclined to assume the former, but don't wanna try both LOL!

Bravo
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 19:17:25 (ZULU)

Bravo - the perfect measure

medicjim
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 20:09:22 (ZULU)

Duman: Soak it in cider ...

brian k. sain
Wednesday, May 23, 2007, at 21:07:57 (ZULU)

Bravo:

I'm using the Lee Perfect powder measure too. The powder contact part is an elastomer so it doesn't try to cut the granules. I've been happy with it so far. I put a lot of Varget thru it.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 02:00:55 (ZULU)

Duman,

Try Maiden Oil....Cider is for quenching thirst.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 05:22:45 (ZULU)

The Western L66 knife is pretty good too. Every time I went home, my brother or sister stole mine. Chrome vanadium steel so it will stain, but I've never had one rust on me. It's the right size and they run about $45.00. Definately non-military if that's an issue.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, CA, USA!! - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 05:52:03 (ZULU)

For the $$ Westerns are good. I've owned, used and abused several. Bravo saw one that I modified using Bagwell's recipe.

Fallkniven, Busse and Swamprat are a whole different deal. Click my name.

CDC'
Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 06:09:43 (ZULU)

Chuck,

Just fondled both of them today. Tink I'll go with the short one. At least until my gunbearer hits puberty and muscles up! The LR is damn heavy, for offhans shooting, anyway.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 09:12:16 (ZULU)

CDC,

I'm with you on the Fallkniven, I've got a D2 steel chef's knife and it has been excellent.

medicjim
Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 12:17:46 (ZULU)

Brian didn't spell 'in cider' correctly... It's 'insideher...'

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 12:52:43 (ZULU)

Travis, yes, it is a bit on the weighty side. but it cuts down on recoil, and we always used to put weights in our AR's for NM offhand shooting, anyway. Well, off the the range. I put a Yankee Hill skeletonized forarm on the AR15 last night, and I had to take the front BUIS off the gas block and put it up on the forarm. The forarm is skewed a degree or so counterclockwise from the gas block, so the irons are a bit off from the Aimpoint. Rats, that means I'm gonna have to take a day off from work and go shoot.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 14:40:14 (ZULU)

Dunman,

If your finger joint flexes it should just be a matter of rehab. Stretch your finger out straight and then pull back toward the back of your hand. Of course it will not go far but you just need the tension on the affected tendons. This should help lengthen the tendons. It should take a few weeks of doing this several times a day to show improvement. I had surgery on my left hand about 10 years ago and this type of exercising helped. My problem was I could not bend my middle finger in to the plam of my hand. I hand to have the finger pinned back together. It was split length wise. So the Doc had me flex the joint and hold it release and begin again. DISCLIAMER:I am no Doctor so please consult your doctor prior to any exercise routine. Medic Jim/Sarge and thoughts?

Dirty Steve.....

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 15:43:21 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info re: stretched fingers. Doc told me to keep it in splint for 8-weeks, then take a look-see if further action required. On a positive note, the nurse was serious earth-muffin.... :-)

CDC' - I've been looking at Swamp Rat knives since you first mentioned them (~1-2 years ago). Nice tool, excellent steel, and a lot of pride taken in manufacture. Definitely on my list.

Bravo - yeah, i got your message. Then a couple hours later, someone called looking for "Mike Hunt". I was a little slow, I thought it was you on the line, pulling a prank. Probably some juveniles with nothing better to do.

Duman
Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 16:10:29 (ZULU)

OK, I've got a REALLY SERIOUS question / request for help here. REALLY. It appears that a pretty lady is in need of some ammo for a Badlands course coming up fast. She's got an SCLE stick, with an M3 turret set for the 175 SMK at 2625 fps (Kenton). What I need from you smart fellows with SCLE sticks, is a recipie that I can whip together and UPS some of those little 50 round MTM boxes out there. I've got enough Winchester primed Lapua brass that I can do it - Varget and 175 SMKs are 'in abundance' at my place. But what kind of a charge and COAL would be ideal for that stick to hit that velocity? Well, that looks like a chunk of my 3-day weekend (GRIN).

On the measures, thanks guys! I've got a LEE measure incoming. The website says it'll be here Monday, but we all know better than that.

On knives, I've been keeping my eye on scrapyard - the spinoff of Swamprat, which is a spinoff of Busse. The #1 problem I've got with SRKW or Scrapyard either one is that when I've got the bucks (HA!) they never seem to have anything in stock.

Duman, if you can't tell the difference between me and juveniles with nothing better to do...... I must be doing something right LOL! Hope you get to feeling better soon! If you want to hang out a while on the e-mail addy, I'll do the same Varget study with the new LEE thrower and add that in the spreadsheet too.

Oh yeah.... I could sure use a 'read-up' on the old Mildot Master, if someone wouldn't mind e-mailing me a copy. My copy was hors de combat in the divorce (my MM lived in my left hand mag pouch, so I've still got it). Not that I figure I'm missing much, but it's been a while since I tried to do much of this stuff 'under pressure' and figured it'd be good as a refresher. I sure do miss Bruce. Can't bring myself to take his phone number out of the cell either, brings me good memories every time I roll over it.

Bravo
Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 19:13:56 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Load that works well for me using both 168 and 175's is 44.0 grains of Varget. OAL 2.80. I use that load in 5 different rifles that we load for here and they all shoot it well. Hope this helps!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 19:54:08 (ZULU)

Bravo, What Bobby said! I'm a little partical to the 175's, but use that exact same load.

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 20:07:26 (ZULU)

Bravo

The 30-06 cam that comes with the M3LR scope seems to track pretty close to the 44gr varget over 175 sierra pill in a 24" rifle like a SCLE. Velocity should be closer to 2700 than 2600 with that load.

medicjim
Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 20:19:13 (ZULU)

Thanks guys!

I'll set the scale at 44.0, and turn the seater in another 20 thou. Gonna crank out 7 of those little boxes for her, hopefully that'll be enough for the course, getting zeroed, and at least some preliminary doping.

The reason I asked is 'cause I figured that my sticks prefer different than the SCLE would. I've been using 2.0 grains more (and yes, 46.0 grains of Varget does seem to fill a casing! HA!), seated to a touch farther out, for an average velocity of 2684 fps - my target was 2685 ;-)

I figured that 2" of extra barrel might make my loads a bit 'tough' if I'd just sent a double stack of mine out there to split.

Bravo
Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 21:08:56 (ZULU)

Bravo,

I know I am chiming in a bit late but .. A 175 SRA-MK on top of 43.5 Varget gives me 2650 out of my GA rifle.

Dirty Steve.........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 21:44:59 (ZULU)

Bravo, e-mail inbound off Roster, no attachments.

'Lito you get my last e-mail?

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, May 24, 2007, at 22:33:09 (ZULU)

Bravo, here is a load that wont track that BDC but will out shoot it. 46.5 grains of Varget with 155 Lapua Scenar loaded to 2.82 OAL, In Lapua Case. Best 308 round I have found for flight. Takes around 28-30 MOA to get from 100-1000 yards (Depending on bbl) and fighst wind better than a 175. Less recoil also.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
Ca, - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 00:32:12 (ZULU)

Sarge...

Mary has always teased me about my fascination with Groom Lake... I watch all the documentaries and specials.

She came in tonight and said, "They are here... the POD people are lookin' for you. Start up your saucer ;)".

I'm packin' it up this weekend for you.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 01:28:15 (ZULU)

For the worst of two worlds...

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1448901/page/1#Post1448901

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 01:57:13 (ZULU)

Lito.... my eyes.... MY EYES !!!

What horror.....er.... whorer....

Duman
Friday, May 25, 2007, at 03:25:14 (ZULU)

Bravo- It's probably too late for this but my SCLE rifle has a very short throat. Federal GMM with 168's mashes into the lands so much that I feel resistance on the entire downward stroke of the bolt. I tried to extract one without firing it once, and the bullet stuck inside. Powder dumped out all over the place and made for a real treat. Black Hills never gave me this problem. I've never discussed this with other SCLE owners so I'm not aware if it's common. I'm sorry I don't remember what my seating depth is but I can check it out tomorrow if you'd like.

Pretty with fine taste in rifles too eh? It sounds like she would be a good one to meet.

CDC- That F1 looked like the perfect knife to me. Shaped similar to my Buck Vanguard but probably doesn't need to be shapened twice on one pig. I have two Randall's that are beautiful but I don't want to use them. They are as new and have never been sharpened so I think they'll be up for sale soon. I can't believe what people will pay for them now.

I'm trying to find some sketches of mirage and how to read it that came from an Army manual IIRC. I heard it was available on the net somewhere but I can't find it. If any of you could help point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 04:44:42 (ZULU)

MarcS,

I think everybody's SCLE was short-throated. Mine started blowing primers on break-in. That was with Federal 168 grn GMM.

Took a throating reamer to it and it shoots great with 175 and 190 SMK's.

UnDude,

Was trying 155 Scenars this past Monday with 46 grains of RL15. Accuracy sucked. And based on the comeup for 600 I was getting some serious velocity, well over 3000fps. Just couldn't get 'em to group.

What twist barrel are you shooting 'em out of and what velocity?

Thanks,

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 05:51:01 (ZULU)

'Lito

Ya keep flashin that pic and ya might have to change your name to "Cat Raiser"...Cause thats the only way your gonna find kitties to shoot.Hell,even my dog even got up and left the room once that pic loaded up.

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 09:51:33 (ZULU)

For those of you who don't want to pay for a Busse but still want primo blades, there is "Ranger Knives". Click my name.

CDC'
Friday, May 25, 2007, at 12:49:38 (ZULU)

"Bark River" is also very good. You can shop around and get a deal on these. They made the knife I carry while hunting.

CDC'
Friday, May 25, 2007, at 12:54:54 (ZULU)

Ordered a Graham knife and have been really pleased with it.

I wanted a small fixed blade for SOB carry as I trail ride. You can specify the steel, handle, and finishing details. They have several sheath options too.

Had to wait about 5 months for it but I got a very stout and very sharp little knife. Would have the Graham's make me another.

Mine is a traditional drop point but they have a design that is part knife part chisel - called a Razzel. Interesting concept for a utility knife. Can be ordered sharp on two or three sides. In the larger sizes -would be a nice knife for military field use.

Josh is a very good person to deal with. He is responsive and helpful.

http://www.grahamknives.com/

Presently however they are backlogged and are not taking custom orders.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 17:08:30 (ZULU)

I've found the 155 scenars to be somewhat sensitive to jump... you want to load them close to the lands to get super tight groups. I've also noticed that pushing them to the limit seems to open up groups on two of my rifles. The load my partner used at ASC this year was 45.6 grains of varget, CCI primer, Laupa brass... set around 5 thou off the lands. He sees pretty darn good accuracy and the drop tracks the 300 Win mag (190 gr sierra) cam on his M3LR pretty well. He actually shoots a bit high at closer ranges

medicjim
Friday, May 25, 2007, at 18:14:07 (ZULU)

Anyone know of any gifts that are traditional for Pakistani weddings? My dentist's daughter (my friend) is marrying a guy from over there, and I was thinking about doing something like that for their wedding.

...........and no, 'Lito, I'm not giving him a goat and some lingerie for it! ;0P

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 18:49:37 (ZULU)

A Biiiiiiig Piiiiig:

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070525/480/a380d39070604b3a99b8346b8522a57c;_ylt=AgffQLqTrC2iy7n9pfVllQ0uQE4F

Barbecue anyone??

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 25, 2007, at 23:03:05 (ZULU)

Well, it's that time again when Texas is about to turn into the place about which Phil Sheridan said, "If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell."

We just had 2 inches of rain yesterday, with more predicted over the next few days, which is the precursor to a mongo mosquito hatch. By this time next week, the skeeters will be big enough to stand flatfooted and have sex with the wild turkeys.

My wife and I are headed for the high country above 8,000 feet where the air is cool and the hiking trails uncrowded. We'll be back in the fall, barring improbable events.

I hope everyone has a great summer, without hurricanes, even if my boss wants to shoot in one to see what the wind effect on the bullet would be.

Lindy
On The Road, RV-nomadic, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 26, 2007, at 15:20:31 (ZULU)

Lindy, I have only been here since March 05. I never seen it so green. I have been busy on the front short ranges the last three weeks. I went to check on my back range last week and it had sunflowers over my head. Our boys are staying busy just trying to keep the growth short near the driving tracks. I love it skeeters and all. We hadda wet down in bug juice during the night shoots last week. Good for character. :)

I have been seeing a lot more turkeys this year. That draught sucked.

Hope your doing fine brother.

Semper Fi,

Finger

Jim Reifinger
Pearsall, TX, USA - Saturday, May 26, 2007, at 15:50:18 (ZULU)

Jim: I've been in Tejas since 1985, and I can't remember it this green, either. If this is what Global Warming is all about, I'm for it! Since I decimated the cedar on the property, the rest of the trees have some water, and are taking off. I actually have grass, now! Crap, that means I'm gonna hafta buy a lawnmower. Or a goat. I had a small stream running through the back yard yesterday. Youngest daughter is bringing her new boyfriend up today for a BBQ. Looks like I'm gonna be a granddad, again. Somewhere along the line, I developed the quaint notion that one was supposed to get married before one started having babies. Silly me. Don't ever, EVER, ask God for patience. He has a rather unique way of installing it in you.....Ran into a killer deal on a brand, spanking new Remington PSS yesterday. I've heard spotty reports of Rem QC the last few years, but I was impressed with the ones I saw in that last class, so I took a chance. Off to the range to break it in and see what it will do. It'll have to do well to outshoot the Howa.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 26, 2007, at 16:52:20 (ZULU)

Yesterday we got three inches of rain with a 50% chance of more through out the week end. So I canceled a big BBQ I had planned (2 Briskets, 20 chicken breasts, Two packages of chicken thighs, and a bunch O sausages) Naturally it has only dizzled once since then. What the heck over?

I have seen some turkey on my back 40 since it decided to green up. Well turkey tracks by the stock tank. And a big hog been wondering around the place.

Chuck, Thanks for the call about going to the range!

Dirty Steve...........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Saturday, May 26, 2007, at 21:08:45 (ZULU)

Steve, I was only going to the one up here by the house, it's only a hundred yard range. I needed to break in the bbl on the new riffle and see how it grouped. Man, they set the triggers at about 37 lbs at the factory! The literature says it's crisp as "a glass rod breaking". Yeah. A 3" thick glass rod. But it did shoot well, best group after shoot in was .59". I'm having issues, again, with the Badger 20 moa base. It was right on on the Howa, but I had to come up 15 min on the Remington, and it's supposed to be for a Remmy short action. Now, I've only got 31 moa elevation available, and that's not gonna get me to 1K with the loads I'm shooting. Back to the drawing board.....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 26, 2007, at 22:33:43 (ZULU)

Re: Tracking Terrorism

This is an interesting map.

http://www.globalincidentmap.com/home.php

(or click my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, May 26, 2007, at 23:19:36 (ZULU)

Simple question, I've got a set of Badger MAX-50s ordered to mount a 30mm tube onto a Savage FP-10 Choate in .308 cal. Badger web says to torque the ring screws to 12 in./lbs. Here's the problem, my micrometer torque wrench goes from 20 to 150 in./lbs. so that's out but I've got a T-Handle t-15 that's set at 15 in./lbs. Now here's the big question, since the Torx screws in the Warne rings are the same size as the ones in the Badger rings and Warne torque specs. say to torque theres to 15 in./lbs. would it really be a problem if the Badgers get torqued to 15 instead of 12 in./lbs. I really don't want to screw up the badgers but if I use the T-Handle at least I'd know that all 6 screws were torqued pretty much the same. If this really would be a problem then where can I find a T-Handle that's set at 12 in./lbs. Any info would really be appreciated here, thanks. holeshot

Daniel Hallman
Abilene, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 00:03:23 (ZULU)

Daniel,

Shouldn't be a problem.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 04:58:15 (ZULU)

For you LEO guys. I know we've had our differences, and you've probably already seen this video, but it cracks me up EVERY time. Everyone please be safe this weekend.

Click my name for video

P.S.- I'm in the Holster business now, mostly single action type stuff. E-mail me for pics. No site yet.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 09:43:31 (ZULU)

Very Good Read on Opticals.

http://www.optics4birding.com/basics1.aspx

Just ignore the Birds ! LOL

Regards,

Joisey

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of Ah - Sunday, May 27, 2007, at 21:59:09 (ZULU)

Bravo had newer knife info that I did. At this "Scrapyard knives" link is something called the "Street Scrapper 4", which is made of the remarkable "infi" steel. Infi was used only in Busse knives. Busses cost major $$$. The SS4 costs much less.

Hey, if you have $140 laying around for a 4" knife that WILL NOT let you down...

CDC'
Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:30:06 (ZULU)

Speaking of bulletproof gear, "Windmill" lighters seem to be as dependable as Casio G-Shock watches. Click my name.

Orange would seem to be the obvious color.

CDC'
Monday, May 28, 2007, at 06:41:37 (ZULU)

CDC...

Can you re-fill those orange things?

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 28, 2007, at 12:07:59 (ZULU)

If you guys want to have your eyes checked go here.

www.MensHealth.com+Eyechart Then click on Mens Health.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, May 28, 2007, at 12:43:10 (ZULU)

Don't use the large case letters in the address, don't know what i was thinking about.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Monday, May 28, 2007, at 12:52:00 (ZULU)

Pablo: "Can you re-fill those orange things?"

Yep.

CDC'
Monday, May 28, 2007, at 13:15:00 (ZULU)

JC, sorry for not seeing this before. Scenars I run are almost to lands. I am starting to work with them out of mag length. I know GA George has had great luck with them. I am switching powders from Varget to H4895SC to get velocity up. With a 1x12 twist I need over 2900 to keep shooting well at thta twist past 900 and with 1x11.25 I need 2850 fps for good results at 1000 yards.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
Ca, - Monday, May 28, 2007, at 19:08:44 (ZULU)

What ever happened to John Leveron???

I haven't seen him here in a hellova long time.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 28, 2007, at 21:37:38 (ZULU)

Gents,

Bravo, the load we've had the most success with is a 175 gr. SMK over 44.0 gr of Varget. I use Lapua Brass and Fed 210M primers. This give about 2,640 FPS from my 26" tube. Recently loaded the same load into Winchester Cases using Winchester LR primers. Again, velocity was about 2,640 FPS. That load has been the most consistent load/powder/bullet combination I have ever used in the .308.

Whereinthehell did you find a lady that shoots .308?

Undude, I'm going to have to try your recipe for 155 gr. Scenars...

Thanks to all who have served and are serving our country this Memorial Day.

My best to all.

Wes

Wes Howe
Salem, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 03:00:20 (ZULU)

UnDude,

I used a max charge of H4895SC to get 2950 fps. It was a damn good load. Shot really flat. I just hated ordering bullets all the time. I could get the 175 any where so I stuck with that. I guess I should have ordered them by the thousand and not just 500 at a time. Hey. I'm rambling...

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 03:16:06 (ZULU)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~pontipak/redsquare.html

Here's a computerized training tool train your reaction time. Or just have fun.

Trajan Aurelius
East Bay, CA, USA!! - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 04:05:44 (ZULU)

Ken M: I posted a reply to your 7m&m bullet question.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 04:13:27 (ZULU)

Travis,

I'm no lawyer, but I think the individual approaching the LEO committed 'assault', per the legal definition. Refer to:

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/22542B6F-FEDB-450A-889A82A49EA50CEB

Duman
Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 04:45:56 (ZULU)

Well we had a great shoot out here in Sacramento this weekend. Two days of nice weather and lots of trigger time on steel, clay pigeons and paper. Mike Miller donated slings and shot the match. I was just a few lanes away from him throughout the shoot and he helped me with good advice a few times. I guess that's why I was able to finish ahead of him by just 5 points. Wouldn't have happened if his knees worked though. Lots of movement, transitions and one stage with a sprint. I don't know how he forced his way through it all.

I learned alot and most of all I learned that I need to pay attention to the little details more closely. I had my head up my ass on the very last stage and dumped 8 easy shots for 10 points each because I didn't return my scope to zero after the previous stage. Then first place beat me by exactly 10 points and took home a brand new USO SN-3 scope. One shot. Just one shot. That freakin' hurt.

It's ok though everyone there made mental errors of some kind and the guy who won was the guy who made the least and shot the most consistently. For third place I got a 50% off certificate towards the retail cost of a new Nightforce of my choosing and I'm happy about that.

It was such a big hit that they're already making plans for next year so you guys should try and make it. It will be in August so I'd expect temps between 90 and 100 with some nasty shifting winds.

I'm seriously considering selling every gun I own right now to build exactly what I want in one perfect rifle/scope with all the accessories and all brand new. I'll think about it after my hernia surgery in a couple weeks.

Cheers,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 06:07:26 (ZULU)

MarcS...

>"I'm seriously considering selling every gun I own right now to build exactly what I want in one perfect rifle/scope with all the accessories and all brand new."<

Sell guns if they are POS's, but don't sell guns to buy new guns... There is no "One perfect rifle/scope".

You will hate yourself later... I promise you.

Get a second job to finance your project.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 10:10:45 (ZULU)

MarkS: "Then first place beat me by exactly 10 points and took home a brand new USO SN-3 scope. One shot. Just one shot. That freakin' hurt."

I have quite a collection of "coulda, woulda, shoulda" stories. The ones that I still kick myself for involve elk or women. Especially women.

Man,...I don't even want to think about it.

About 30 years ago I swapped all my guns for the "Perfect Rifle". It was a mistake.

CDC'
Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 12:57:48 (ZULU)

What CDC said...

... don't swap guns, swap women!

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 13:06:58 (ZULU)

... don't swap guns, swap women!

This is an idea that has real promise. Where could we find a venue and what would we call it.. ?????

Went looking for a copy of Hunting the Dangerous Game of Africa by John Kingsley-Heath. Couldn't find it anywhere-bleeping Amazon included. If anyone knows where I might find a copy, or runs across one, please let me know.

WR Moore
Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 13:44:22 (ZULU)

Mr Moore... a little 'google fu' for you...try structuring your search in the following manner

rare books Kingsley-Heath Hunting the Dangerous Game of Africa

medicjim
Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 14:46:18 (ZULU)

WR Moore,

kingsley-heath book:

http://www.booktrail.com/Hunting_Africa/Hunting%20The%20Dangerous%20Game%20of%20Africa.asp

There's another site called trophyroom.com I think, which carries some of these type books.

Google-fu:

Type in kingsley heath book hunting..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 18:36:58 (ZULU)

Thank you gentlemen, I don't actually qualify as Urban Amish*, but I'm real close on the finer things of computer stuff.

*Come to think of it, I DO qualify.

WR Moore
Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 18:58:57 (ZULU)

Duman,

I don't need to look it up. That dipshit deserved what he got. And his buddy needed a whippin', too. The first ammendment sometimes covers stuff it shouldn't, but that's a bad can of worms to open. Kinda like giving up one type of guns, but not the other. If we give up one, why NOT the other? Because it's our RIGHT to have it.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Tuesday, May 29, 2007, at 20:01:57 (ZULU)

Duman,

I dont know what state they were in, or what their laws are, but here the charge would be menacing, and most likely an asswhipping too. I laughed my ass off. Sheesh, these guys really are oxygen thieves. Maybe they were filming a segment of jackasses.

Bill

Bill Bledsoe
Outback in , KY, USA - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 04:11:15 (ZULU)

You guys are right I'm not selling any guns. Sorry for the whining and feeling sorry for myself about losing that was ridiculous. Everybody has their coulda shoulda woulda stories and nobody wants to hear mine. Over it.

Now I really understand the importance of giving each and every single shot of the match all of the attention, focus and stress it would get if it were the only shot of the match. It's never over until the last shot is fired. Forget the previous shot good or bad, and prepare to shoot "the next match" right up through the very last shot of the match. This is key.

I also learned to quit bullshitting with the guys on the neighboring lanes and stick to my own routine of managing all of my pieces of gear/ammo and my scope. So between stages I focus intensely on the prep for the next stage, and during the stage I focus on the individual shot with all of the mental checklists we discussed last month. Mental errors come only from laziness and lack of attention to detail. Inexcusable.

I'm happy as hell about taking third at my first big match and the two guys above me deserved what they got. All is well for now I'm just going to have to beat the living shit out of them all next time ;)

Speaking of swapping women... For the two hour drive home I kept thinking about how I need to start spending more vacation time and money on travelling to more shoots. I need to go out of state and compete against all the best in the nation and so on. I'm thinking about how I'm going to tell her all of this since she's been giving me shit about shooting every weekend and dry firing, reloading or surfing the gun forums every night. I'm not home for ten minutes and she starts in on me with her fussing about this very subject. Really bad timing man it didn't go over too well with me. I think she may be down the road soon. Then I'll really get some good, distraction free training time LOL.

Our Sac long range monthly tac match this Sunday, then my hernia surgery on Wednesday and another big two day event with big prizes down in Riverside exactly 4 weeks later. I don't care if I'm leaving a freakin' blood trail along the course I'm shootn' that sumbitch.

Loved the vid of the asshole getting a good beat down from that cop. Made me laugh so hard I had to push in on my hernia. Classic.

'night fellas,

Marc

MarcS
East S.F. Bay area, CA, - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 05:35:32 (ZULU)

MarcS,

Congrats on your placing third. There are perfect guns. A perfect Tactical gun, Varmint gun, elk gun and such. Just finish one project gun before proceeding to the next. I have traveled down the road of multiple projects ad it is not a pretty site. If you aint bound by marriage license. I would put that relationship on hold. Both women and men don't change for the better once married. My wife doesn't mind me shooting. In fact before we got married she bought me a S&W Model 19(We only had been dating three or four months at the time). Just remember all the bad things wiull get worse not better. And never think you can train her. Because she is planning on changing you!

That guy getting beat down was funny.

Dirty Steve........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 07:02:24 (ZULU)

Marc S.-

Dammit, settle down! Maybe she's got a point. My wife does, and it's on top of her head! LOL. Seems like marriage kinda makes us all grow up a little. I haven't been in a big enough fight to draw more than one cop car since I met her. I can actually make a fifth of whiskey last between holidays, too.

Let the damn hernia heal. Those things can get pretty nasty, ya know.

Dirty Steve,

Now I know why they call ya "Dirty"! Here I am, married to old "Buffalo Britches", who don't like guns, and you go and tell us about your catch!

Did anyone else notice how fast that cop got his nightstick unholstered? I'd be willin' to bet he'd already had a shitty day, and wasn't someone you'd wanna screw with, anyhow. Some days, I can watch that video 5 or 6 times.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 08:33:36 (ZULU)

That 'stick can come out very very fast...

UnPat

UnPat
Wi, USA - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 14:50:34 (ZULU)

Marc: If a split is going to involve lawyers, skip a few matches. Ultimately, you're competing against yourself, anyway. And that's a match you have to win in your head. When lawyers get involved, you're gonna lose a few guns in any case, to pay for them. I'm learning, the hard way, about stuff like that.

I quit carrying a "nightstick" a few years ago. I used to carry a blackjack tucked in my Sam Browne, just ahead of my pistol. Now, they're politically incorrect, but they issue us an ASP collapsible baton, made of steel. Go figure. You can use a holster for it, but mine resides right where the sap used to, in the belt. When I'm in my "interview stance", I tuck my thumbs into my belt like some kinda southern hick rube cop. what no one sees is that the ASP is already 90% in my grip. Some peckerwood wants to dance, the ASP is already out, extended and on the downswing before he even knows what's coming. I learned that from an old street cop we used to call "La Vipora", many years ago. "Old age, and treachery....."

In keeping with my philosophy of seeing how cheaply one can shoot well, I'm mounting a Super Sniper on the new Remington. It seems to want to shoot really well with the Leupold, but the Howa is sitting in the gun cabinet, glaring balefully at me without the Loopy on it. We'll see.

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 16:55:56 (ZULU)

I finally got ahold of someone at Weaver Outdoor Optics about their "Tactical" scope. Total range of adjustment is 30" in both windage & elevation. That kinda made the plea I was gonna make about the 1/8 MOA adjustments moot. And Redfield doesn't list a Mil-Dot reticle. Where, I wonder, to they do their market research? 3rd barstool from the left?

WR Moore
Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 17:19:03 (ZULU)

For youz Marines.......

==========================================================

Vacaville, CA., May 17, 2007

Yet another unselfish act of heroism performed by a man wearing the Eagle, Globe and Anchor:

An Air Force Captain narrowly escaped serious injury recently when he decided to try horseback riding, even though he had no lessons or prior experience.

He mounted the horse, unassisted, and the horse immediately sprang into action. As it galloped along at a steady and rhythmic pace, the Captain began to slip from the saddle. In terror, he grabbed for the horse's mane, but could not get a firm grip. He tried to throw his arms around the horse's neck, but he began to slide down the side of the horse anyway!

The horse galloped along, seemingly impervious to its slipping rider. Finally, losing his frail grip, the Captain attempted to leap away from the horse and throw himself to safety. Unfortunately, his foot became entangled in the stirrup, and he was now at the mercy of the horse's pounding hooves as his head struck against the ground over and over and over.

As his head was being battered against the ground and he was mere moments away from unconsciousness, to his great fortune a Marine sergeant shopping at Wal-Mart saw him and quickly unplugged the horse.

====================================================================

Duman
Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 19:04:59 (ZULU)

Dammit, Duman, NOW I have to clean my monitor! LMFAO!

Have any of you read some of the hatefest going on over this latest big pig? All sorts of losers are dumping on this poor little fat kid! One of the negatives I had to laugh at, from the kid's site, though, WAS funny:

I have to congratulate you because I didn't think it was possible for an 11 yr old as large as yourself to chase a pig for three hours in hilly terrain. Well done, fat boy! For real though. Killing an animal about half your size does not make you a hero, or a model american, or anything else anybody might say you are. It certainly does not make you worthy of being in a movie.

It gets worse from there. Is this what America is becoming? Thousands of people have nothing better to do than call an 11 year old a liar, and worse? I DO have to concede, though, that if this kid and his Dad Kept the grocery bill under $1,000 a week, the "hunt" probably wouldn't have taken 3 hours.

Travis Morgan
Wichita, Ks., U.S.A. - Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 22:32:10 (ZULU)

Interim results are in on the LEE perfect powder measure.

I didn't do a full 100 charges, 'cause the results didn't lead me to believe that I'd benefit from it. All weights were taken on a Mettler Toledo AT261 Delta, with the last decimal (delta range) disbled for speed.

This scale is accurate to 0.00001 grams, but I only had it measure to 0.0001 grams (delta range disabled), and is continually calibrated and verified with NIST traceable standards - it cost about $15K when purchased.

I then converted to grains in an excel spreadsheet, by multiplying by 15.43236.

For 50 charges, I got:

Average: 43.773 grains (since I was gunning for 43.8 to 43.9, ideal!)

Maximum: 44.140 grains

Minimum: 41.876 grains

Extreme spread: 2.264 grains

standard deviation: 0.342

In other words, over double the spread my tricked-out RCBS Uniflow did.

Is there some method or technique I don't know about? Obviously my results don't mesh with what other people have gotten, and I naturally wonder 'is it me'?

The powder used was H4895 - Hodgdons verified what my calibrated eyeball said - this is identical in kernal shape and size with Varget.

If someone has technique pointers, I'll gladly repeat the test. As for now though, I'll be throwing charges with my Uniflow, and then hand-trickling to weight. And man, that just SUCKS.

Bravo
Wednesday, May 30, 2007, at 23:00:57 (ZULU)

>>>As for now though, I'll be throwing charges with my Uniflow, and then hand-trickling to weight. And man, that just SUCKS.<<<<

Thought you was on to something, Bravo. I've been following this with interest. Cuz, that's the way I've been throwing charges for a LONG time (Uniflow etc.)and was looking forward to something different.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 00:29:07 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Your results are not consistent with my experience with the Lee.

Some questions...

-did you give the measure time to accumulate the graphite or whatever it is...over the inside of the mechanism?

-did you keep the hopper filled to a consistent level (I usually target 3/4 full)

- did you make sure the gate at the bottom of the hopper was fully in the opened position?

-I generally tap the side of the round feed mechanism on the measure one time for each load..

I loaded 200 rounds using H4350 two weeks back and anecdotally noted the low side measure as 42.7 and the high side as 43.2 with a target of 43

medicjim
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 02:00:06 (ZULU)

Bravo: "I'll be throwing charges with my Uniflow, and then hand-trickling to weight."

I use a Redding and do it the same way. The Redding trickler is the best I've used but trickling is still a PITA.

CDC'
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 13:42:09 (ZULU)

Do any of you guys know the importer for Steiner bins - they're down in Joisey, and the name begins with "P", but I can't remember it, and can't find it on Google.

I got a pair of 15x80 commander-II's and I need to have the compass refilled and re-sealed (leak!!)

Thanks...

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 14:52:12 (ZULU)

Bravo,

After 30 samples, you're pretty much taking data for the joy of taking data. The times you need large sample sizes (100+) are when comparing very small differences to check for significance between samples. One question, if the data is plotted sequentially (x-axis == sample number, y-axis == powder charge) is there any trending or oscillation? I trust your experimental techniques.

Although, I think another 2 or 3 digits of significance would greatly improve the results. DOH! :8-o (That was a joke)

Duman
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 15:56:49 (ZULU)

Lito: Pioneer Research ... need a POC?

Bump me offline.

brian k. sain
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 16:02:59 (ZULU)

Powder Measure Country,

The old RCBS (I think it was them) had a built in "knocker" on the side. You would use the knocker after throwing each charge to settle the next to give consistant results. I like my new style Dillon measure. I put one of the return springs from the old style on it to make a built in knocker of a consistant size tap. I have not wieghed the charges but I am happy with the ammo on the range.

I have read a recommendation some where on the WWW that you should 1) Fill your measure 3/4 full. 2)Tap the measure to settle the powder. 3) Throw 5 charges and dump them. 4) Then begin loading and tap after each throw.

This is what I do and seems to work. And sounds like what MedicJim also does. I would be interested if Bravo would try this technique. Just try 20-30 charges for jiggles please.

Bolt, You hanging in there?

Dirty Steve..........

Dirty Steve
San Antonio , Texas, USA - Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 17:10:01 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve,

The Lyman 55 also had the "Knocker".

Using a small funnel in the top of the hopper will

help keep the powder level consistant. YMMV!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Ridgewood, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 17:33:15 (ZULU)

I just found out my stock is in,Im pretty excited this is my first custom rifle that I have ever owned.I think I have asked this before but Im going to ask again.I have the nightforce .885 rings now and with the varmint contour barrel I have between 1/8 to 1/4in between the scope(50mm Obj) and barrel.My new barrel will be a strait taper.what are the odds I will have to go up in ring height?

Plus the rings have gone up in price,they went from 130.00 to 170.00 in price.I know the price for steel has gone up but man $40.00.Thats bad.

Jon Kujawa
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 18:34:09 (ZULU)

Jim, let me get this straight.... my numbers don't match your numbers, THEREFORE I should have read the directions? It's not enough I buy the thing, do all this testing, and then process the data, you want me to read the instructions too? HA! DOUBLE HA! BTW, I got the specialist cert in hand yesterday. Can I go play with neurotoxins now?

Actually, both you and another friend of mine dropped me a line asking if I conditioned the measure first. Well, I thought I did, but I'm certainly game to say "maybe not enough". I'll run a couple of pounds of powder through there, and then try it again.

That's why I put out the comment about assuming it was me ;-)

But the rest of the things I did do. I threw a half-dozen charges into the same pan (taring the balance between charges) and then emptied the pan back into the hopper so it never got anywhere even near half empty.

And Duman, nope! I thought of exactly that as well. The low number was 32nd, and the high number was 15th, just looks like baseline noise. I'm willing to give this a better go though!

And leave it to a Steve (called Dirty) to talk about tapping knockers! HA! Seriously though, on my RCBS, I always throw the charge, then bring the cylinder back into line, and tap once.

I did have an idea a few days ago (sit down everyone!) and thought I'd offer an interesting bit of science for anyone interested.

As you guys know, I was really impressed with the precision my 'tweeked' RCBS gave with some powders (obviously Varget and H4895 weren't in that list). Well, maybe it's time to put those preconcieved notions to rest!

Later in the summer (after my decompression time), on a one-by-one case, how about if we have a great 'powder throw-off'. Here's my idea (feel free to amend, offer, or update - I'm not saying this is anything but a rough idea):

I'm sure that among the lot of us, we've got about every powder measure known to the free world. Send them all to me, one at a time. I'll let you guys know when I'm done with the one I'm working with, we'll just queue them up. I'd say that a realistic time would be 'in my hands' about 1 week - I should be able to weasel in some lab time within a week max.

I'll tabulate the data and put the results on here.

For the sake of education, I'll pay return shipping for anyone that wants to participate. Assuming that we get more than a few guys wanting to participate, it'll be worth it to me. This way we'll ALL know for a FACT what thrower pumps Varget the best. There's nothing I'd like more than to know for a fact which measure, regardless of cost, throws the most consistent load of Varget - and how consistent that throw is! The way I see it, my only other cost is time and a pound of Varget that will be the 'through the measures' pound.

So what say the lot of us?

And JK, I made the same mistake a while back too. When all these brokerage types were talking about stocks to invest in, I thought they were all nuts. I never heard them mention HS or McMillan even once. Just goes to show that brokerage types must not know shooting. But I did invest in stocks! Them, a few US GI synthetic M14 stocks, and some laminates from Fagen-Reinhart. Ah, coffee laminate! Sure was a pretty stick (GRIN).

Bravo
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 20:35:52 (ZULU)

Bravo - I guess you called my bluff... I'll get the info on Dugway together and see what I can do about convincing the wife to let me loose for a week. I may not tell her about the 'live agent' detail.

Congrats on the 'specialist' title...that officially makes you 'special'.

medicjim
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 21:42:45 (ZULU)

Bravo, I will send one of my Dillons set up the way I use it with the spring on it.

I said tap the knockers. Not lick them or fondle them. I prefer either of the latter two over tapping.

Dirty(real Dirty)Steve......

DirtySteve
Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 22:10:55 (ZULU)

Brian...

Thanks.

This is the second time I have needed repairs to a Steiner bin, and the second time I have been SHOCKED at the cost!

$55 to replace the whole compass - it don't get no better than that.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 22:11:38 (ZULU)

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