Sniper Country Duty Roster


I thought being a dad was the bestest thing that ever happened in my otherwise shitty existance, but.........being Doughlady's grandson's honorary grandpa (now officially known as 'PawPaw') is the at least as good if not better. The little turd is now getting some of my personality which is keeping him in trouble:) He's hardheaded like his mom and grandma (now officially known as 'NaNa'). Fortunately his mom just ran his dad off for various reasons that I wish I could talk about, but I get too damn pissed off and that's not good at my age. I guess I'll have more time with him now.

Enough for now, just wanted to throw my 2 cents of dad stuff in.

Bolt out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 00:18:03 (ZULU)


'Lito,

Emailed you my quals. as a Dad.

Hold hard and don't let up.

Quick, Decisive, Maximum.

Love that boy and allow him to vent.  Be there for him.

I know you will, 'cuz you're an old hard-dic* like some o' the rest of us.

Later.

Semper-Fi!

Spud

PS.

Been a lot of illness and loss on the board since I last wrote to you folks.

My sympathies and wishes for your well-being...

Spud

Dennis Email this member See this member's profile
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 02:16:15 (ZULU)



'Lito - keep in the fight... the enemy's spending all their boolets.... After awhile - it will be over, enemy out of ammo and credibility. You - with Scooter.

ALL - RIFFLE RAFFLE STATUS -- WE'RE @ 455 THIS EVENING.... KEEP PUTTIN' THE WORD OUT. WE'LL GET THERE.... THANKS TO ALL....

TAKE CARE, GOD BLESS... OUT

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 02:28:01 (ZULU)


This "Dadhood" thing is getting way outta control.  Now that we're in the new house and Boudicca can put "solid waste" down the can instead of in the woods (ya gotta love a woman that can squat behind a cedar and just shrug it off), I've got a little more time on my hands.  Now, normally I would head down to the range to blow off a few rounds (and steam), but this weird urge has been threatening to overcome me....build a jungle gym for the grand kids!  This has got to stop.  I got 500 rounds of .308 just begging to be reduced to a reloadable condition, and I'm actually contemplating using valuable range time to endanger my fingers and other extremities with a Skil saw.  And I know that, once I get started, it just wont stop.  There's several stands of oak that just scream for a tree house.  I've got two tents, one a rather pathetic GP(small) that GK #2 thinks is the coolest thing since Spiderman.....sheesh.  Distaff side suggested that we go to the gun show next weekend as an antidote.  I'll probably end up getting a Chipmunk for the little twerp.  He loves soldiers and cops. There is a God, and He remembers me.....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 04:55:35 (ZULU)


OK, a little time on my hands to do some things a little more properly.  A couple points I'd like to address, kinda cherry picking the topics, sorry.  Rick and Joe M, if I'd don't bring it up, I'm agreeing with your points:)

[quote]Please do not blame a system for fighting the last war when that is exactly what you are advocating.  You wish to gear up for this CQB war forgetting we have guys in A’stan that need the longer gun.  Oh yeah, there are guys in Iraq that are running the outback and not in the city.  We must arm for both and not just for CQB.[/quote]

I talked with some(6) guys who were in A-stan, and I talked shop with a few Marines who worked the border areas of Iraq.  Wide open spaces.  Plus, to set the stage, my AO had some side open spaces too.  We had two teams shooting vermin at 800+yds with SAW's and M16A4's, with minimal effects.  Was not expecting much to be honest, and my expectations were met.  Holes were poked in savages, blood was found on road, they still drove away, bodies not recovered.  Would anything have made that incident work?  M240G on tripod, Mk19 or M2, or a Javelin ATGM, but I don't expect rifles or carbines to solve that problem.  OK, with that out of the way, the places "everyone" got into firefights were invariably close quarters.  0-300m shit, classic SLA Marshall stuff, and I generally otherwise think he's full of shit.  From what I've seen thus far, long range engagements that didn't use bolt guns, mortars, GPMG's, HMG's or CAS generally didn't have good outcomes for the US forces.  Good outcome meaning stepped on dead shitheads.  And that's with new M16A4's with zeroed 4x ACOG's.  To create "good" hadjis, we either had to employ supporting arms, or close the distance(classic fire and maneuver), long range slugfests with assault rifles were time and ammo wasted.  Throwing that out there for discussion.  

[quote] The 338 and other calibers are being looked at, at this time.  They will come into the system.  As far as barrel life, you have obviously not seen the weapons I have seen going to missions.  Every one of the barrels was burned out and in 300 WM the problem would have been worse for a moderate gain over the 308.  I do not know what your unit does for train up but barrel life is a very real problem, dismiss it lightly at your own risk.[/quote]

The USMC does not have this problem "now" because all our rifles are new.  That said, I never saw this problem with the A1's.  I saw them broke with all sorts of other problems, but shot out barrels were not one of them.  I'm gonna play some phone tag tomorrow and get some rd counts from all the guys I can get ahold of, just so I have a more valid base for discussion.  Note:  I'm not saying I like the 300WM, or that it would have been better, I'm simply saying that barrel life is a non-issue to me or to any of the snipers I ran into in Iraq.  Dead barrels would mean I had shot an assload of ammo, and that's the kind of problems I'd love to have.    

[quote]Our best bet now is to use the congress's current generosity to jump on as much largess as we can while we can.[/quote]

Side issue, but one chapping my ass.  It appears to me that there are a number of CONUS bases that are overhauling their infrastructure and doing lots of work that I'd definately call frilly.  Not expanding training areas or billeting, but petty feelgood shit.  This is on top of all the mega-FOB's and other way too damned cushy shit going on in Iraq itself.  I don't know for fact, but it would hardly surprise me if this were all OIF/OEF/GWOT money that should have gone for M1114's, ASK kits, ammo and training.  Just a WTF note.    

[quote]We could have had decent body armor for Grenada---but unitl this war, nobody thought twice about it.  All of a sudden and from outta nowhere body armor became the standard---and buying it was a top priority.  Hell, for years we knew our trucks were death traps, canvass is not much of a ballistics barrier.  But nothing was ever considered (costs? practicality?  roles and missions? all are cited as reasons)--yet here we are, hardening everything.   This new spirit of "only the best" needs to be carefully sheparded by guys like Rick to set up the future.  And the future is not CQB ala Iraq necessarily.  I'd be thinking Korea, Taiwan (navy/ AF battle), and Iran for outfitting ourselves.  Iran is a wild card, China is a menace and getting worse, and Korea is off the rocker.  It's anybody's guess, but LIC is just one aspect of what we will need to address. [/quote]

The no body armour issue along with the M1114 issue were not surprises for Iraq, except to the criminally(I would say willfully) stupid.  We knew this shit for real and true after Bosnia if not before, about the only good thing to come out of that debacle.  The powers that be knew what was required, they just tried to scrap by with the absolute bare minimums because they wanted money to spend on MV22 and F22 and high dollar shit that guarantees jobs after retirement.  It's the American way, reference the WWII buildup, Korea, Spanish American War, VN, etc etc.  ODS is about the only war we have gone into adequately trained and equipped and I'm sure there are folks who would disagree with even that statement.  

The thing that gets my goat is no one being held accountable for the hugely important shit like this.  Is someone being fried for the SAPI debacle?  No.  Is someone being crucified for the M1114 debacle?  No.  AMERICANS died because of that shit. Some PFC chick humiliates some useless savage ENEMY piece of trash, the unforgivable crime of being a dumbass in front of a camera and she's plea bargaining for 11 years?  That's a bunch of horseshit.  As an institution, we really haven't got a damned clue what our priorities are.  GO's walk, and someone who routinely isn't even trusted to mop floors without direct supervision gets slammed?  Unbelievable.  S/F...Ken M    

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 05:19:10 (ZULU)


Dad Country,

hang in there Lito, right is always right, no matter what.

It strikes me, that despite the potential,and the anti gun propaganda,guys  still go through the "system" to obtain justice.It often takes more than can be afforded in many ways.I reckon thats because theres real men here.

I have three younguns, most realise that they would sacrifice everything for the kids, it wasnt till after they were born I realised what "everything" was.

G.Willis Email this member See this member's profile
socialist , republic of, Oz - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 10:31:22 (ZULU)


Dad Country,

hang in there Lito, right is always right, no matter what.

It strikes me, that despite the potential,and the anti gun propaganda,guys  still go through the "system" to obtain justice.It often takes more than can be afforded in many ways.I reckon thats because theres real men here.

I have three younguns, most realise that they would sacrifice everything for the kids, it wasnt till after they were born I realised what "everything" was.

G.Willis Email this member See this member's profile
socialist , republic of, Oz - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 10:32:23 (ZULU)


Ken M. - money tends to get spent on stuff that's high-visablility, or only after Congressional hearings. Or both.

Example: I fired more rounds through my personal .308 last year, using ammunition I paid for, than are allocated for training the entire sniper cell of an Army regiment. Does that suck? It does.

Unless you're in a special operations unit, no one gets to shoot enough to attain and maintain weapons proficiency with their primary weapon, in either the Army or the Marine Corps. For example, I've talked to soldiers and Marines who've never been taught to manipulate a weapon one-handed, nor spent any appreciable amount of time firing from their "weak" side. Does that suck? It does.

So, we send people off to war, without the skills it takes to stay alive because they are not properly trained. Does that suck? It does.

I doubt that will change, either. Does that suck? It does.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 12:49:18 (ZULU)


Can anyone offer some advice?  I'm trying to find a good scope with rangefinding capability for a family member just getting into shooting.  Something that works like a Mil-Dot, but marked in MOA instead (preferable SMOA, but TMOA is fine).  Anyone have any suggestions for me?  I've never really worked with anything other than Mil-Dot, and can't seem to find what I'm looking for.  Thanks in advance.

RC Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 13:26:16 (ZULU)


Ken; the only thing I hate about what you said in the last post is that I know every damn bit of it is the truth.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 13:45:32 (ZULU)


Ken.

Work with every level of management that will cooperate, establish a list of reasonable changes / objectives... take it through a vetting process with service folks on this board...

Once you have it to that point, release the idea anonymously. I promise to personally introduce it to my elected representatives.  I will also aggressively sell the concepts to my fellow constituents.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 14:36:49 (ZULU)


KenM, feeling your pain. On the good side I believe the USMC is addressing the problems. I have a source that suggests two sniper rifles issued, in the future, to all 8541's. One for Urban and one for long range. Although I still dont understand how guys like me need to donate so guys going into the Badlands have basic equipment like slings?

With that said some things never change. Got a call yesterday from someone wanting a bid on 210 slings, from US Army. I gave them GSA price on Slip Cuff since that is what they asked about. Response was "We dont want to spend more than $3.00 each" I said to try China and passed. Crap my cost on just the metal sliders alone is more than that.

Enough rant.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller Email this member See this member's profile
Ca, - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 14:45:44 (ZULU)


Ken M:  The infrastructure money---frilly shit---is allocated by congress in a hands-off pot o' cash that MUST be used for housing, beergartens, and gyms---they got tired of us getting momney and wasting it all on operations as our bases rotted away.  Their answer---fence it.  This is different money.  CONOPs funding is a huge-ass blank check (almost) that we aren't managing as good as we should---but CONOPs could set us up with some nice stuff...

Body armor/ up armored thin skinned vehicles:  Yep...monies went to the sexy jets and subs.  But it wasn't the generals, per se, it was your congressmen and senators.  They want the contracts in their disticts---screw what the miliatry really needs.  The generals, for their part, maybe ought not be such good troops about that, and maybe bitch a little harder next time.

That PFC who screwed the pooch---what pisses me off about that (rant mode on) is WTF about the chain of command?  Where was the LT and CPT while this went on?  This is a Frat party gone awry.  Leadership doing leader stuff woulda prevented it---or caught it early on before it got to the point of a circus.  What I see all to often (I'm repeating myself from earlier rants) is the COL at brigade is "somebody" now---he can "summon" his underlings to his office, which he does.  Why should the boss do the walking?  same on down the line---everyone is "looking up" the chain, not down to their responsibilities.  Therein lies the problem.  For my part---I've been a PITA to my highers.  They'd have to track me down to get me in their offices (because i was never in mine).  Even then, whenever they would ask what I had going on (from their lofty perch)--I'd ask why not come and see for yourself?  My O-6 now has been in my AO about five times this year alone---among my troops countless times.  I cannot remember the last guy I served with like him.  38 months in the 82d in command of two companies---not once did my BDE CO show up in my areas.  I do not remember my O5 doing so, either---except in FLT OPs, when I scheduled his "hops."  Leaders must be where their subordinates are---and the lack of that leads to Abu-Gs.  Grrrr.

The money-man (at a certain point) over there was, IMHO, senile.  I saw some extremely bizarre shit first hand.  For me to be rendered speechless by a comment says it all--if you know me.  Heheh.  

Legal country:  I am in the opening skirmishes of running afoul of liberal social workers.  It is a long story, but it took a turn south last week.  Short version:  Blake is doing an intervention path for skipping fifth period (two lunches, social butterfly that he is)--which is illegal---the other path is criminal which hurts chances to serve in the armed forces.  Well, it turns out that "our gun hobby" is dimly viewed by these pukes.  And there is a move afoot to seize my safe....can you believe it?  I mention it now, as I may need some resources to fight an epic battle.  Initially, I will not even be present at a hearing that does just this.  I have explained my position to the liberal lady---basically, "let's be reasonable" because I'd fight anything of the sort.   Blake had the highest scores on his standardized tests; the consensus is he should be on ritalin and not ranges.  Holy shit.  You all would not believe what I am hearing from these losers.

Lito:  You would.

I've been spittin' mad all week--no idea where this may go.  I think I had a reasonable accomodation with my version of church lady (the church of the democratic party), but she may yet file her motion behind my back.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 14:54:08 (ZULU)


$3.00???  geeeeeeeeeeeeeees! Maybe we need to issue SKS's to the troops!(just kidding .. a 7.62X39 is too much fire power).  

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 15:00:55 (ZULU)


That burned out barrel thing conjures up memories of some things  George Herters wrote way back during the 70's about little .223 rounds being too hard on barrels. It was basically a put down of the mouse guns we sent to Vietnam. Geo was comparing the M-16 to the AK-47 in things like recovery from recoil, barrel life, copper jacket wash,too much velocity,  open sights vs. peep sights in the dark jungle and general reliability under adverse conditions. Control under full auto and all that was also discussed. I guess I won't reprint it here but it was right on target then and now. Ya'll ever fire a AK full auto? You'd know what I was talking about if you have. I saw a news report yesterday and every American in sight had a AK. Geo thought the FN-FAL was about the best combat weapon ever designed. None of these K rifles are sniper rifles including the Sniper version but some of the Valmet AK rifles were pretty accurate and the sweetest auto you ever shouldered.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 15:12:46 (ZULU)


RC...

Horus makes a scope marked in MOA (and, Mang, youz gets a LOT of MOA's ;)

They are not thought of very well by most of the folks here, though they may have a few suporters (you will hear from them ten seconds after I post this ;))).

To my knowledge there are no others.  I know that for most newbees, MOA seems easier, cuz that's what they are used to thinking in, but in reality, MOA gets very confusing at ranges that don't end in x00.

Mils are Mils, at 100, 562, 983, 268, and every range - and the quick shoot formulas are all based on, and centered around, mils.

-

Gots some good news this morning - Ruggus Rattus called me and said that he had locked himself in the bathroom - his mom and he had a verbal "exchange" and she tried to choke him.  He locked himself in the bathroom, and called 911 - the "Fuzz" came and took him to school.

(hey 'yote Bate and Rickster, how's that for carbon dating a living fossel ;)

She has been reported to DCFS, and has to appear in juvinile court next week.

Thank you God :))))))

it may be starting to turn.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 15:17:17 (ZULU)



Joe Mahon...

>"Holy shit.  You all would not believe what I am hearing from these losers.

Lito:  You would."<

You got that right - in S-P-A-D-E-S.

One thing that I, and Bravo, and a few others have learned, is that the "social worker" people all come from the same social philosophy - "We know best what is good for you, for your children, and for the WHOLE FUCKIN' WORLD!".

They are the most power hunger social engineers that you can imagine.

When the Ex started filing false charges against me with DCFS a few years ago, the social workers were so outraged at me owning "guns", that they spit nails. Down to the point that... I have one of those replica wooden shotshell crates from the 1890's with "Winchester" burned in the top... I had it on my front pourch to keep odd car stuff in, like the ice scraper, two quarts of oil, etc... the formal DCFS report demanded that I remove this empty wooden box and "hide it from public view".

Of course, if I were a black/Asian/Serbo-Croation female impersonator/transvestite, it would be OK for me to do strip tease dances on the front lawn at rush hour.

Have I ever told you what I think of the legal system in the USA???

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 15:32:21 (ZULU)


Funny story to lighten the mood...

I've been running on 2-3 hours sleep for the last week.. (sick kid, super high stress job and a minor shoulder injury)...

Last night, at around 1:00am, I  am lying in my bed when what has to be the most awful sounding racket starts up in the front lawn (I own 2 acres in suburban NJ, small apple orchard in front).  I picture the sound to be some sorta small animal in agony...maybe a car hit. The sound was repetative and went on for a good two or three minutes before I got up the energy to go look.

The wife and I walk downstairs and I shine a flashlight out front and there is some sorta critter convention going on... I've got two cats (not pets, semi-wild), two white-tail deer (both full grown female) and a red fox all within twenty feet of each other, staring at my light.  The cats run directly at the front door and divert at the last second, the fox goes into zig-zag retreat and the deer just stand there.

The sound was not 'cats in heat'...it was some sort of animal in agony...wierdest thing I've seen in a year or so.  I looked this morning and there was a small amount of blood on the ground near where this scene took place.

I have no clue what was going on... Foxes do predate on cats around here...but that doesn't appear to be what was causing the noise.  Maybe it's a sign of some apocolypse <g>  

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 15:40:01 (ZULU)



Lito:  It is that bad.  Ya see, Blake cut fifth period three times to see his chippie (who is one grade ahead--you go boy).  I opted for a social program (counseling) as opposed to a court date---this is a blue-collar liberal community with laws for everyone, all behavior is regulated...and even school tardiness gets more than just a letter grade reduction (in my mind, this is double jeopardy).  So, these social engineers have a kid in intervention.  Intervention=bad.  Columbine=bad; ergo kid equals colubine.  I sh!t you not---I heard, "we cannot discount columbine in all this behavioral 'disorder'--we must err on the side of caution" As they requested I remove all firearms from my home.

Then, this:

"We can get a court order, you know."

I sat and explained some facts about columbine, the perps, the outcastes, the parents who had no interactions with firearms and how these kids got them outside the home...versus a kid who knows what they are, how they work, and how to apply the rules.  He is not "fascinated" by them--he is learning responsibility thru them.  One lady got it.  She is an NRA member, and seems to be my ally to head this off.  But I cannot be sure.

Hell, all i am trying to do is limit the legal damage to my boy over chasing skirt during the second lunch period.  For his part, he is absolutely miserable that it all came to this in the first place.  IMHO, that is enough for me as his parent.  The nanny-state's checklist doesn't allow for such common sense, however.  They want to roll him up in with true delinquents--it seems that car theives end up in the same program from time to time---and all are lumped as one in the eyes of these do-gooders.  Grrr.  First, do good to yourselves, you sorry bastadges!

I stand ready to haul them into the appeals court, and to elevate this to all levels possible.  This IS NOT the country I defend...

I'm spitting those friggin' nails myself!

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 16:42:44 (ZULU)


RC,

Both Nighforce and US Optics offer MOA based reticles. Neither are cheap scopes and I don'tknow of anything less expensive that has an MOA reticle. You can range with an MOA reticle as easily as with a mildot reticle and it works well for hold overs and wind holds. I used a USO SN-3 at the Sniper's Hide Cup and it worked very well although my wind shooting needed work ;) I was weary of it at first as I always used mils but I found the transition easy enough. I still use a mildot reticle on my 300WM but will continue to use the MOA on my .308.

Rob01 Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 18:01:06 (ZULU)


Hey, Firedude.

Drop me an e-mail.

I need to re-up membeship at Ledyard, and have lost the address in the move.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 18:22:40 (ZULU)


Joe M and 'lito,

You need to move to Alaska.  Forget about a box with Winchester written on it, I could leave a Winchester on the front porch and no one would say anything other than "Nice rifle" or "Where can I get one?"

As far as cutting classes go, I don't think anyone up here gives a rip.  It doesn't seem to be a big deal to not go to school period.  I can't believe where they are taking this thing.

BTW 'lito, if your ex was up here and pulled a stunt like that, she would have gone to jail, which is where it sounds like she belongs.

I'm off to the range now.  Have to re-zero the scope on my 40X after putting new rings and a base on it.

Jim

JimT Email this member See this member's profile
Soldotna, AK, - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 19:06:14 (ZULU)


http://www.shepherdscopes.com/

MOA u say?

Viva Alaska!

5 days suspension in local piss ant school for mentioning that he had guns his dad let him shoot and some liberal little HO turned him into the office. My Grandson got after the school showed a columbine film.

This "Free" country is slip sliding away my friends.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 19:23:35 (ZULU)


On being a Dad...

You walk out of the delivery room a different man that you walked in.

Our son turned 2 earlier this year and he is the greatest.

My lovely wife is due with our daughter in 3 weeks...so I get to undergo the "transformation" again.

Can't wait...

PJC Email this member See this member's profile
Upstate, SC, US of A - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 19:50:36 (ZULU)


Nightforce does make scopes with MOA reticles. The problem is that none are first-focal-plane reticles, so you can only use them for measuring targets on one specific power, which is usually not marked on the scope. If you're going to get one, check to make sure what that power is, and by measurement rather than taking Nightforce's word, because every one I've tested so far has been off. Then make an index mark on the power ring, so you can find it again easily.

A first-focal-plane mildot or other mil-radian based reticle is vastly superior to a non-FFP reticle of any sort for tactical rifle shooting.

OTOH, if all you do is punch paper in daylight at KD ranges, with plenty of time, it doesn't much matter what reticle you use - and that's where non-FFP MOA reticle belong, in my opinion.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 20:19:31 (ZULU)


Saw the postings on the kidos and its spooky. Boils down to libera conrol I think. My grandson a few years back had to do a show and tell. I had bought him a 30/30 for his his first deer rifle. He got a nice little 8 point with it that year. He was very proud of that set of horns and it was his 1st deer. He took the horns to school as show and tell. He told how his paw paw had bought him his gun and taught him to shoot. Well the tree hugger teacher took great offence to this little 8 year old feller murdering this deer. He was sent home. This was resolved the next day with the superintendent who is an avid hunter.

Zane

Zane B Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, USA - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 20:26:31 (ZULU)


"Piggie" Pete wrote:

...apparently they have a sight that you cant see through that works by using this principle.

Armson OEG.  

Armson O.E.G. (Occluded Eye Gunsight) This red dot sight is simply the fastest sight available. It allows you to use both eyes to speed your focus onto the target. One eye never leaves the target scene. Binocular aiming means that while your view through one eye remains focused on the target, the other eye sees a red dot as the weapon is aimed. The result is a super-imposed dot on the target.

Not good if you are cross-dominant (dominant hand opposite dominant eye).

http://armson1.site.yahoo.net/armsonoeg.html or click on my name

http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=6

http://www.trijicon.com/glyn.cfm

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 22:31:45 (ZULU)



Rod:  Wuz using the occluded sights back in the late eighties (88? 87?).  Tritium insert in the far end, black field with a red dot in the near.  Faster than the couch for he who forgets mother's day a comin' up on sunday.  We've moved on to betterer things...if the ruskies are just getting there now---I'm good with that.  Those early deals were narrow tubes, but they occluded too much target at 100 and beyond.  The clear HUD-style and see-thrus got it all goin' on these days.

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 5, 2005, at 22:52:01 (ZULU)


Joe - re: OEG

Agree with your analysis.  I wasn't trying to endorse the OEG, just explain it.  They're still selling it after all these years, which I guess means "someone" is buying them :-)

                  \\

I've been toying with the idea of an 870 w/Holosight for aerial targets.  Being cross-dominant, it's difficult getting on aerial targets fast enough with irons (I can't shoot a shotgun w/both eyes open and get a proper sight picture using irons).

Only problem is that as far as i know, most of the aerial shotgun match formats won't permit optical sights, which makes it difficult to get any cheap/easy practice time in.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 00:43:18 (ZULU)


HOGS - RAFFLE STATUS -- WE'RE @ 466 THIS EVENING...We'll get those 34 squeeked out... keep gettin' the word out..

I want them dam rifles in the hands of some very fortunate ticket holders before the end of this month......

Take care all ---

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 00:56:51 (ZULU)



Rod - you might try switching sides. I'm left-handed, but right-eye dominant. I grew up, somehow, shooting pistol right-handed and rifle left-handed. When I got back into rifle shooting after an absence of several years, I decided to switch to the right side for long guns. Now I can shoot either side with equal facility. And that capability comes in handy - if working around cover on my right side, I just switch and shoot left-handed.

I can use either eye on long guns, but I always wind up using my right eye on pistols, whether shooting left or right. It means that when I'm shooting pistol left-handed, the gun is cocked over more toward my right side - but it works, and with both eyes open.

It's a bit of work to switch, but the added facility is, to me, well worth what it took.

I sometimes find it fun to show up on the range one day with the pistol holstered on the left, and on the next day with it holstered on the right. And it allows me to demonstrate to the unbelievers that handedness is over-rated.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 00:57:06 (ZULU)


June long range and highpower matches:

Pascagoula DCM in Moss Point, MS will be having a 3x600 long range match. It is open to Position, F-Class, Highpower, and Service Rifle. It will be on Sunday, June 12th. This is an unscheduled event so it's not on the calendar.

To add to the goodness, that Saturday, the 11th, is the regularly scheduled Highpower/Service Rifle match. This allows some shooters to compete in both matches in one weekend.

www.pascagouladcm.com

Keesler AFB is about 20 minutes away if anybody in the military needs anything. Not sure if they will have lodging.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 01:48:44 (ZULU)


.338 Lapau and HS Precision...Results?

Hey,

I'm new to the group and am a long range shooting enthusiast.  Currently, I have a Rem 700 in 30-06, and while it's been a great rifle, it's a hunting rifle.  I'm interested in a HS precision rifle, and was wondering if any of you have had any experience with them, especially in the larger calibers. Specifically, I'm interested in a HTR in .338 Lapau.  HS' accuracy guarantee is interesting in this respect the smaller than .30's are 1/2 moa and .30+ are 1 moa.  Now guarantees and performance are 2 different things, and was wondering what results people have had.

Thanks,

Ryan

Ryan Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 02:53:07 (ZULU)


Lindy:

I've thought about swapping sides, but the reality of those 5000+ correct repetitions needed to effectively establish the "muscle memory" is what holds me back.  I'm a fair shot with a long gun, hate to start over again. Agree that being effective with either side *is* an advantage.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 02:53:37 (ZULU)


Thanks for all the feedback on the AR optics.  I think I am going with the CQ/T.   My thoughts were towards a battle rifle with keeping the sights in place, not a sniper rifle.   I think I can co witness a ghost ring shotgun sight with the rail on the top of the CQ/T with the 18.5" barrel and it will work for me with the front AR sight.  The red dot CQ/T sight should be fine for close shots and the ones requiring a little thought should work with the rings.  What I was looking for is nothing more than a battle sight 300 yard zero with this weapon across any sight.

Now on to better things.  I'm getting gear ready for next weeks ASC III match.  Hope to see all you there.  I'll bring some wine, cigars and veggies.

TonyY

TonyY Email this member See this member's profile
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 04:21:49 (ZULU)


Joe M,

One thing I forgot.  One of the classes offered in the middle school here is Outdoor Ed.  The class is mostly taken up by hunter's ed with a little bit of map reading thrown in.

My son's English teacher is a hunting guide and took off two weeks this fall to guide bear hunters.  His shop teacher, who is also the outdoor ed teacher, is a long time hunter.  Most of the male teachers are more than ready to talk guns and hunting, and some of the female teachers probably are as well.

We are certainly concerned about school violence, and it has happened up here, but the attitude overall is that this is still Alaska, and hunting is a big part of why a lot of folks are up here.

There are military bases up here.  That's a hint, Joe.

Jim

JimT Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 06:47:39 (ZULU)


Gents,

I see that we've transitioned to "Dad Country".

Can't say I know much about fatherhood. Never had wee ones of my own. Always considered my Marines and a couple German Sheperds as my kids.Come to think of it they mind better than kids or a wife!

Married a lady with a daughter...16 years old and on hormonal overdrive. That was a real shock for this gent, let me tell you. Gennie is now 30 and we have two grand kids. Nicholas and Allura. Great spoiling them and sending them home;-)

AR's and battle rifles. SLA Marshall had it dead on with his take on rifles, but it's his theory on extended ops that I like. Max gear weight should be 35 lbs for extended ops. I agree, except you can't do it with all the "mission essential" gear required Not entirely possible. Hence the grunt saying; "travel light, freeze at night".

Using an Aimpoint M series on my M4 carbine. It's fast and works very well for close in work. Think I would almost prefer a good SMG at times...

All for now.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 07:08:47 (ZULU)


Rod, I've been toying with the idea of mounting a reflex on my 870 receiver--largely due to my new-found CQB deer technique.  Geoff M, Bravo and I've been kicking this idea around.  That split second aquiring the front sight swinging fast could be better spent watching for trees!  Heheh.  I got a few Oaks and a pine this year playing in the back forty draw.  While overwatching from my highground and taking the panoramic fields of fire (and all the extra deer) under aimed fires is cool---there is something about that eye-to-eye stuff.  I use my 870 slugger for it's quick, authorative shots---although I've also been looking at a Gibbs or similar for that purpose.  Sorry Bravo--the SOCOM M1A just ain't happening.  I like it lite, too..:))

Lindy:  My left hand is useless.  Insubordinate appendage won't do what I tell it, and no punishment gets through (I even broke it on someones skull to no avail).  Wish i had your problem though.  With a pistol in my weak hand--I'm happy just hitting paper, thrilled if it is in the black.  I suppose more could be done...but I can't get past the frustration factor.  

Hello Ryan...HS will cost ya a few dimes...consider a GA precision riffle at that point.  338 LM is well thought of by Morgue (an infrequent poster and good friend).  He's trained with it and owns one (Sako TRG).  It plays well beyond a 1000 yards, if that is where you wish to go.  Most of us think 1000 is as good a place to go, beyond that it gets exotic as hell.  Heheh, for me, the exotic starts at 800 and beyond, because I like my 308s.  What I'm looking at is 300 wsm for those next 200 yards.  But I need to stretch my back-yard range (800 max now) before I bother upgrading.  If you're looking at 1300 yards---you're in the right caliber.  If your looking at 1000---might consider something easier on the eardrums.  BTW--I hate brakes--and the LM needs one IMHO.  

I doubt many will argue that:)))

JimT:  Wife and I met in Alaska---and always thought we'd go back there.  Then, kids happened.  A whole slew of 'em, in fact.  That kinda nailed our feet to the floor---and we latched into this school system for it's national rankings (usually numba one).  In my mind--Alaska is most like what our founders had in mind of anywhere I've been yet.  Add God's own beauty and it is as close to heaven as anywhere on earth...maybe someday, we have not forgotten.

Sir Wes:  I thought so too, until i got one.  The M4 did it all and more.

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 14:21:56 (ZULU)


  Hey guys, just a heads up for you. I have a hotmail account an have been getting emails from a lot of you regulars with a virus attached. I have also been getting on the average of anywhere from 280 to 640 junk emails a day for the last 3 days!!!

  I don't know if someone is hitting us again or if its just a fluke that all the virus emails are from regulars on here. Hope you all have a great weekend we have 20 to 30mph winds forcast.

Pat Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 14:51:15 (ZULU)


On shooting from both sides of the rifle…

This is a very good skill to aquire or enhance/practice.  My situation resembles Lindy’s  in some respects.  I am right handed but left eye dominant.  My natural prone position wants me to put the rifle on my left shoulder (for 5 dot drills, it is nice to be able run the bolt with your right hand).  But a long ago shoulder injury that was severely aggravated after the purchase of a 338 LM pushed me to learn to shoot of the right shoulder.  If I recall, the exact words of my ortho were “if you want to continue to do what you do, then you better make some adjustments, or surgery is in your future”.  I have been under the knife for ortho surgery before (and I am sure several others here have as well).  I will only do it again if it means permanent restriction of activity and there is no other alternative.  Read that last sentence twice.  Your OEM parts in their original condition are the best out there.

So I taught myself to shoot off my right shoulder in the prone.  My sitting position still needs work, so I am still shooting of the left shoulder.  But in the sitting position, you don’t get all the recoil you get in the prone position since you rock a little.  It is funny to see the looks on folks faces when I go from strong side prone into the sitting position and switch the sling to my other arm.  

You guys going to ASC this year will find out that it is easier laying on the downhill side of the rifle.  As Lindy mentioned, being able to switch body position around barriers is another nice thing to be able to do.  Shooting out of a tree stand, it is nice to be able shoot that monster buck that is behind you and you have to turn around, face the tree and put the rifle up to your weak shoulder and have the confidence to do it and know you are going to have a clean kill.  

The hardest part was not the limbs and my body position, but my eyeballs.  My right eye was very weak.  I conditioned it a little by forcing myself to use it on the spotting scope and just use my right eye more for everyday activities.

It has worked pretty well, but I still look a little strange shooting a pistol.  I naturally bring the weapon up and my left eye is primary, but my right side is my strong side.  

PJC Email this member See this member's profile
Upstate, SC, US of A - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 16:49:20 (ZULU)



Pat...

I think it's your mail box, cuz I don't get nothing (hardly ;)

Go back to "Mr. Bullet" ;)))

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 17:13:45 (ZULU)



School country, get a lawyer and start with the superintendent and then the school board. First enroll your son in private school. Well worth the money vs. a government education.Try the NRA legal defense, maybe they would be interested, if it is high profile enough for them.

Had a BSA red dot on my shotgun, used it for turkey and birds. Worked good for about 75 rds. I'd do it again with a good scope.

Lived in Alaska for 2 yrs in mid 80s,ran a kids church camp,taught rifle and archery. Public school took my kids camping teaching outdoor skills and white water rafting at Denali.Gods country up there.Winters are kinda long tho.

Finally got to break in SCLE 23. Best groups so far are 3 shots under a dime at 200yds with 168 FGMM. M118LR is disappointing. Have BH175 to try next outing.

Fred Hartman Email this member See this member's profile
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 18:03:04 (ZULU)


'Lito- title 83 lawsuit for civil rights violations could get your $50K back:)))))))))))))))

JoeM- hesitate to mention attorney, but..... friendly NRA or ACLU type could explain unreasonable search & siezure.  Personal experience is that these school types have no real conception of due process, etc. and can be hammered in court.  The threat is generally enough, someone in admin usually has some grasp of what it can cost them.[ key phrase is "jointly and severally"-translates as school district and the personnel, personally, not through employer.] REAL stretch from cutting 2nd lunch for cuddle to what you're describing.  If you can find ex-prosecuter to take it, so much the better.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 19:01:38 (ZULU)


Gents:  It is not the school (they did start it all though)--it is the "county" that is doing this mess.  Ya see, when a kid cuts a third class---he gets a citation.  That puts him in front of the magistrate where he can do one of two things.  Pay the fine and take a misdemeanor...or take counseling sessions with no records of conviction.  Since Blake wants to join the Army--he opted for the counseling.  They asked him the "who are you and what are you about" questions---where he spoke up about his hobby with dad; shooting sports.  heheh.  The meatheads think a kid who would cut three classes to visit a girl is just a hair under a mass murderer!  They, uh, overreacted, to say the least.  I'm not sure if i got thru to them or not--I'm just in a wait-and-see mode.  I've got bigger issues on the MIL-side right this minute--and one crisis at time for this guy.

But other than diming my boy out--the school isn't doing this---the county district court and social services is...

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 19:38:58 (ZULU)



A couple of days ago I looked for some chile powder for the BBQ sauce for a batch of mesquite-smoked ribs.  There was some red powder left in the bag Bruce Robinson sent me. The ribs were good.  Bruce would have approved.

I’ve been diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson’s disease.  It’s not associated with dementia (lucky me) but there’s an oscillation in my left hand.  The frequency is about three cycles/sec and the amplitude is getting ridiculous.  My shooting has gone to hell.  Guns carry what used to be called “heavy karma” and moving them around is a chore.  There are too many to leave to the kids.  

Check the emporium for a .300 WM Sendero and a Rock River Arms AR.   I just set both of them up last summer.  They shoot GOOD and need good homes.  

The .300 was competitive with some very nice rigs at last year’s 1,000 yd matches.  Dealing with a left hand that flopped around like a stuck carp didn’t help. The guys there were a little surprised by these results from a 14X scope and a factory barrel on a hunting rig.  

The RRA is the AR I’ve always wanted.  Nice, clean 2-stage trigger, flip-up sights, Giles sling, Badger rings with cool little wrench that fits in the handle, 4X Loopy mini if you want it.  IT shoots great, but – as soon as I leave the bench – I quit hitting.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 21:21:48 (ZULU)


JoeM-cutting 3 classes is a misdemeanor???????  JHC, did ya explain .....nevermind, probably wouldn't matter, but I'm glad I don't live where you do.  You'd know better than me, but I'd think fine & CC would raise less issues in the future than what the meatheads might put on paper with security clearances & whatnot.  You might want to scratch time to consult a pitbull (attorney)-first advice should be free/cheap.  Maybe retain.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 21:30:02 (ZULU)


Lito,

Got 4 kids, 2 boys and 2 girls, and a grandson about 1 1/2 years old, Yeah, I guess I know "poop" too. ;-)

Hang in there man, I'm praying that it will all work out for you and Ruggus.

Rob Opp

Robert Opp Email this member See this member's profile
Jamestown, ND, USA - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 22:08:12 (ZULU)


School Country:

Joe, sounds like the ancillary surcharge on that highly-rated school system is a bit steep!  (20/10 hindsight...)

Deer long-gun Country:

Shotgun's pretty nice, but lot of the season here is buck-only.  Little tricky w/o some magnification. ('Tho of course a hunter should be using bino's to spot game, not the optic on their long gun.)

I have an accurized custom stainless Ruger Mk II bolt gun with a light contour 20" brl in .308W w/Leupold 2.5X fixed that's pretty comfortable to drag thru the woods.  Only thing I don't like about it is that the 3-position safety is difficult to get purchase on in the first position. May see if I can't get an extension welded on and blended with the rest.  Will be a bit tricky since it's also stainless.

I know, Ruger is a dirty word here :-)

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 22:28:37 (ZULU)


I heard every body missed me so i'm back after a little more than two yrs.

Everything seems to be exactly the same(puppy counrty, dad,school,etc. counrty).

Perfect for a shooters post!

Great to see a lot of the good people are still here, and good to see some new ones!

Now back to SC (school counrty?)....

When I was just a lad, bout 12-13  I took my new (dad hand me down) 7mm rem mag, to school for show-in tell....this was nothing new at the time, we all brought them, to show as the TOOLS they are.  Now a kid is thown out for bringing a picture of a firearm.

That was only say 25yrs ago in N.Kalefornea.

Back to lurking.  Good to be back.

Jim B. Email this member See this member's profile
You can't win the hearts and minds of the heart'less and mind'less, - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 23:07:54 (ZULU)


"Gents:  It is not the school (they did start it all though)--it is the "county" that is doing this mess. "

Joe - I hate to ask this because I am afraid of the answer but ...

What country is this county in?  Please tell me you live overseas.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Friday, May 6, 2005, at 23:13:53 (ZULU)


Rod, at the ranges I'm talking about, Ray Charles could ID the sex...heheh.  Now there's a mental image...anyway--I shot one Doe quartering frontal--the hit was loud, and highly visible.  See-thru deer, as it were.  fast action...and fun!  

Yeah--back when I recruited this area---we would often run into problems qualifying some great kids due to underage drinking (whatever happened to pouring it out like in my day), underage smoking/chewing/dipping, "truancy," seat belt violations, suspension of provisional licenses (running a stop sign can do that) etc.  While nothing in their record should have been more than a spanking--they needed waivers from PERSCOM to enter service.  If they got so much as a speeding ticket while waiting--it was game over for them.  

My effort to keep Blake out of this trap was for two reasons.  One, to keep him clean for the recruiters someday, and to let him know that there are repercussions for his actions...

Ooops

With my 20/10 vision---I should have pressured the school to bury it.  They would have, I am sure.  But, along the way---they threatened to Cite him---and I thought--at the time---"he challenged you now live up to it..."  May have been the right answer---this "other aspect" could be yet another life-lesson for him.  As in, don't screw with my pop....

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 6, 2005, at 23:15:37 (ZULU)


I used to walk to school from about 2 miles away across some good hunting country in good weather. They wouldn't let me bring my rifle inside unless I unloaded it first and put it in the principal's office.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 00:12:43 (ZULU)


HOGS - RAFFLE STATUS -- WE'RE AT 480 THIS EVENING!!!

YEEEHAA! --- KEEP PUTTING OUT THE WORD....

WE'LL BE POSTING SOME WINNNING NUMBERS IN AFEW WEEKS

CDC -- GOOD TO SEE YOU STOPPING BY. Don't be a stranger.

thanks all -

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 00:47:14 (ZULU)


Dan:  I sure have missed your posts; all the links to relevent news--and of course your opinion--things are quiet...too quiet...without the CDC angle on things.  Please, stick around.  Ol' Bill would never admit it--but i bet he misses your comments too.  heheh.  

Now, as for the more pressing part of your post:  Dan, you are in my prayers.  I told Peanut that "Dan wasn't feeling good" and she gave ya honorable mention in the blessing tonight.  On the more earthly side, I've been reading about some advances over the last few months--mostly meds that show promise to control symptoms.  I'm sure you're all over it.  I wish you the best, friend.  Many here feel the same.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 01:36:52 (ZULU)


CDC - folks are trying to contact you via snipercountry email -- your internal email:  criscurt AT isu  D0T edu is no good....

do you have a better email?  If you want to keep that non public -I can put you behind a xxxx  AT riflemen DOT net address - and route the incoming to your private email automagically....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 01:43:14 (ZULU)


LtChip....

Wisconsin is a beautiful state.  The people are OK.  Not a-holes like in Chicago, but not quite as friendly as down south.  Somewhere in the middle.

Our gun laws are pretty decent, and we have passed recent amendments to our State Constitution guaranteeing the right to hunt, and the right to "bear arms for hunting, self defense, and any lawful purpose".

However, what the libs haven't been able to take in a frontal assault, they are taking through flanking manuevers.  It amounts to a core group of flaming liberals in Madison, one of which is now Governor, working through the school system and teachers unions to facilitate a liberal agenda despite the majority of conservative counties.  Wisconsin is home to a lot of very hardworking, ordinary people (outside the cities of Milwaukee and Madison especially) and for the most part, it's "leave me alone, I'll leave you alone".  Most people aren't aware this crap is going on.  Finally, we are starting to become another suburb of Chicago.  Can't believe the amount of IL plates I see.  It's like an invasion.  And these people have their nose in on everything.  This is starting to effect State politics, which in turn affects the rural areas.  Tail wagging the dog.

It's happening all over the country.  Just ask Pablito.

Did I mention the stupid peaceniks that protested here last week, one of the organizers was a local public school teacher?

If I ever have young 'uns, they are going to private (Baptist) school.

Geoff M Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 01:49:28 (ZULU)


CDC;

My sympathies to you. My father has Parkinson's as well. His left hand moves rapidly. Unfortunately, he is a lefty.

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 02:08:32 (ZULU)


Well folks wish me luck tonight and the next day or so. We are taking in my sister in law and her year old baby. Seems that her husband has gotten hooked on crack and chosen it over his wife and child. He has left them on the street with nothing. So we are helping out. He might try and come after her and take her car tonight. So I am standing watch. That will not happen. He will run into 150 grains of boat tail soft point. That 03A3 has a set trigger pull to 3 lbs. I best not sneeze. To get to the car he must walk under a light. Rather nice I think. I like lights. Don't like crack heads pokin around my yard. Nice to use my skills again. I really don't think he will have the guts to show. Can't take the chance. She needs all the help she can get at this point.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 02:56:18 (ZULU)


Zane,

I think even in Tx, you'll get some jail time if you shoot him in the driveway.

Pull the distrubuter cap...leave the car windows down.  If he breaks in the house and you have to protect your loved ones... well, if it were me, I could sleep at night.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 03:21:25 (ZULU)


MedicJim

Yep I sort of thought of that. But its the hunt that's fun. You see there is no law to speak of here so you must take care of your own. Got one deputy covering the entire county at night. If push comes to it I might just scare the heck out of him. Might just dust one past his head. He will not know where I am or where the shot came from. I will not hurt him unless I am forced to. I am not sure how tanked amd nuts he will be. He will only have a slight chance at a break in. I will be on the outside waiting.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 03:44:11 (ZULU)


http://tkdtutor.com/07Defense/Laws.htm

I'd read this carefully before any shots are fired. In general you can't use deadly force unless you have reason to believe your life or someone else's is in imminent danger. Intruder must be inside your abode in order to qualify for a legal shoot. None of this protects you against a civil suit should the perp decide he has been wrongfully shot or shot at.

My take would be to disable the vehicle and sleep with one eye open and a handgun in reach.

Property protection with deadly force (a fire arm is usually considered deadly force if a shot is fired) isn't allowed unless the damage is likely to cause severe injury or death to you or someone else.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 04:04:47 (ZULU)



I got about half-way through posting a long reply when my kids called me to watch Daffy Duck cartoons.  

Ken:  Let's do the rifleman.net thing.  Email is on the way.  Any of the regular suspects are welcome to contact me though I still owe Duman a reply and my last Email to Bravo was too short.

Joe M:  Thanks for the comment on my comments but there are a bunch of bloggers who do it better.  They have better training, better information and are better writers.

Joe M and Jody:  Thanks for the kind words, but I'm doing fine.  This is just part of life.  Tell Peanut "Thanks".  

Pablo:  We are on the same page concerning sociologists.  I've got a story that's too long to tell about one who works for SECA that still pisses me off.  Any psych major in a position of power scares me.  When my son was four, a gubment psych took one glance at him and declared him "developmentally disabled".  She gave me a paper to sign that had a couple of pages concerning the proceedure I was to use when appealing her decisions.  My wife was livid.  We signed NOTHING.  The psych major's face just oozed patient pity.  My son is now eight.  He has an honest seventh grade reading level and is well over half-way finished with a college pre-algebra text.  His private school offered to let him skip a grade or two but he's physically too small.  He said that he would rather just skip high school.  The psych major was easily the dumbest person in the room.  Everybody knew it but her.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 04:30:29 (ZULU)


I am not a lawyer, and you should check before you act on it, but I believe in TX you can shoot someone over property if it's after dark??

Anyone feel like discussing drag bags/cases?  I am looking at some gear for upcoming classes and match use.  Anyone used the Eagle HSRC? ......"a combination of a rifle cover, rifle carrier, and shooting mat. The case is set up with a heavy duty #10 YKK® wrap around zipper . It is also designed to roll up and attach to an operator's pack or web gear. This product was developed with a vast amount of input from a variety of professional snipers. After extensive testing and development, EAGLE INDUSTRIES is proud to offer the Hybrid Sniper Rifle Carrier to the sniper community."

Looking for a drag bag/shooting mat, that I can also lash to molle straps on a pack, etc.  Also looking at the various Blackhawk stuff.  As far as color, I seem to be hooked on solid OD as an all around color.  Thoughts and experiences?

Dan.....prayers for you here.  

Geoff M Email this member See this member's profile
WI, USA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 08:25:50 (ZULU)



Here is the relevant section of the Texas Penal Code:

Sec. 9.42.  Deadly Force to Protect Property.

        A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

                      (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

                      (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

                     (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

                     (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;

        and

                      (3) he reasonably believes that:

                     (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

                     (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.  Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg.,

ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Now, having noted that, I would not use deadly force to prevent someone from taking my property. Aside from the question of whether what I own is worth someone else's life, it opens you up to lawsuits which may be difficult to defend.

My truck has an electronic key system which disables the vehicle when I am not in it. According to the manufacturer, no vehicle so equipped has been stolen by driving it away. I think that's much better than shooting a potential thief.

Drag bags/Shooting mats: I have an Eagle drag bag, which I use as a rifle case. I would only carry it during a match if I really intended to drag the rifle during a stalk.

I use a four dollar 6'X8' Wal-Mart tarp as a shooting mat. I adopted that after covering my expensive Dillon shooting mat in Badlands Tactical red clay. The tarp can be folded up with the mud which accumulates on the bottom on the inside, then strapped to a pack. It's easy to clean after the match with a hose - or it can be thrown away. Much better, lighter, easier to carry, and cheaper than a padded shooting mat, which I don't need to shoot off of dirt, grass, or Bobby Whittington's mud.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 12:14:28 (ZULU)


Read Lindy's summary of Texas law on protecting property.  Now let's be clear here: I'M NOT A LAWYER..........but, have fair edumakation on use of force.  Garner vs Tennesse made popping a fleeing unarmed felon a no-no in this country.  With all due respect to the Texas legislature, I don't think it'd be wise to pop a car thief.  Or does the local sherrif start their investigation with the question "Well, did he really need killin?"

School country-the intervention programs may have been well intentioned.  Actually started to keep liability at bay...but now the persons involved  have a vested interest in keeping the program going. To do that they need "clients".

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 13:19:08 (ZULU)


Hogs -- raffle status for this morning: 488 tickets... get 'em now - cuz  if we have 500 and monday comes - that's it :))

WR Moore "With all due respect to the Texas legislature, I don't think it'd be wise to pop a car thief.  Or does the local sherrif start their investigation with the question "Well, did he really need killin?"

"Course he needed killin'... sumbitch was tryin' to steal ma truck.." - LOL....

take care all ---

Ken

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 13:36:40 (ZULU)



Help Needed, Please!

Gentlemen,

 I get a lot of questions from hunters about size estimation using the Mildot reticle and their Mildot Master.  I can remember Bruce spending time with guys on the phone talking about this, but I didn't think I needed to write this all down for future reference!  Can some of you give me a quick "cheat sheet" for target size????  (Ken H. has been wonderful answering questions for me, but he's busy with the raffle right now.  LOL)  

 I thought I'd make a list to post on my bulletin board to use when I get this question in the future.  It will go right beside the list that Ken made me of FAQ's.  I always say, go to the experts when you need information!  And, that would be you guys!

 BTW...I read the post about running low on chile powder.  Bruce always bought his from The Chile Shop in Santa Fe.  Their website is

www.thechileshop.com

 Thank you!!!

 

LouAnn Robinson Email this member See this member's profile
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 14:09:57 (ZULU)


Zane, et-al:  Forget what the law says.  Once the act is mentioned here prior to the commission---and no matter how justified it becomes down the road---that road has just "gone all uphill" thru a little thing called premeditation.  If that drug-crazed maniac came at you with a hail of bullets and you drop him--this prior-act conversation could haunt you later.  I am not a lawyer either---but civil lawsuits do not seem to follow legal absolutes...

No matter how mad you are, no matter how many threats you receive, refrain from proposing your desired end-state ahead of time.  Instead---express the conditions and ask advice---if you must discuss this openly at all.  The advice you receive would be various legal opinions,etc, maybe tactics--but it would not be you stating what you will do.  Doing that is a bad idea...no matter how bad the situation truly is.  

I'd say if it came to pass that this guy puts you in a corner fearin' for yer life---the deck is stacked against you from the start because you've already said you'd shoot him for less than a 'life-threat."

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 14:31:00 (ZULU)


WR...

>"JoeM-cutting 3 classes is a misdemeanor???????"<

Yeah... ranks right up there with dealing drugs and stickin' up 7-11's.

Ya' know, I'm an average kinda guy - I have read stuff about the schools taking over everything over the years, and have taken it "with a grain of salt".

Now that I'm involved with it, no one believes me - my close friends believe it, but no one else.

You'd think I have my hat lined with aluminum foil, for God's sake!

The schools (read teacher's union) have taken on the job of deciding what values children should have, and what professions they should want.  The "Family Services" have taken the on same roll - and none of these people have a dime's worth of responsibility when they fail - they just walk away and say, "Well, we did the best we could 'under the circumstances'".

They put a kid with a bad mother, and the kid runs away and gets into bad stuff like drugs and prostitution, or the kid commits suicide, they have "NO" responsibility!

-

CDC...

I'm bummed to hear about what's happening to you.

This has been a bumper year for bad news! :((

Lemme know what your new e-mail address is.

-

Fred H...

Alaska?

>"Gods country up there.Winters are kinda long tho."<

Yeah, from August 15th, to July 25th ;))

-

WR...

I sent you an e-mail on Title 83's...

-

Ken...

>""Course he needed killin'... sumbitch was tryin' to steal ma truck..""<

Not up here in Connecticut - it would have to be:

"Course he needed killin'... sumbitch went and kilt my pregnant wife after raping her, raped my two daughters who was 8 and 10 years old, sodomized my 6 year old son. burned down my house, raped my best huntin' dog, was tryin' to steal ma truck, and when I tol' him to stop, he pointed a gun at me and fired three shots - two hit me in the arm and leg, so I shot the sumbitch."

And the answer would be "Well, I might get you off with 5 to 10!"

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 15:11:35 (ZULU)


CDC,

Welcome back, sir.

John

acehigh Email this member See this member's profile
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 15:55:17 (ZULU)


Well it was nice and peaceful. Me snakes and bugs. I am not so worried about premeditation. Staying safe and alive is the key. I wamt the advantage. Turned my big male Pyr loose. He can take up the slack. I really don't think he will show at all.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank , Tx, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 16:03:33 (ZULU)


Geoff,

It is ashame how much of this beautiful land is being occupied by the tyrants.  I am looking for a way out of this state myself.  I currently live in one of the sane enclaves but I can see that we wont be able to hold out.  The latest threat to our freedoms here comes in the form of two very well supported bills that will effectively ban all ammo in the state.  They require all ammo to have be marked with a serial number on the case and inside the bullet and that all serialized ammo be track to the point of sale.

Since no ammo maker will do this, ammo will be banned here.

Our "govenator" is very weak on individual liberty issues.  His euro based ethical foudation does not include any respect for the right to bear arms as he has already signed the statewide ban on BMGs.

I considered moving to WI until I found out that this would not be a move in the positive direction.  It is one of only 4 states with no legal means to carry concealed.  That is unacceptable to me so it is off the list.

It is sad that I have to search this hard to find a free state to move to.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 17:00:55 (ZULU)


re: draft California ammo legislation w/serialization

I haven't seen mention if there is a law enforcement, military exemption.

If the ammo companies were serious about stopping this, they could either say:

- they're not going to sell to California LEO or military end users either while the serialization requirement is in effect

- Only ship serialized ammo to California LEO and military with suitable surcharges applied too.

(what if it was stolen and fell into civilian hands :-)

Many of these insane initiatives could be nipped in the bud if they were equally applied to LEO and military too.

The product suppliers could extend most of these...

- AW Ban

- .50 BMG ban

- non-serialised ammo ban

Food for thought...

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 18:24:52 (ZULU)



Didn't see this posted before so I apologize if it has been but this one really got my goat...

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/307279p-262879c.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/05/06/phone.iraq/

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 18:29:15 (ZULU)


'Lito-you have a reply on the way.

KenH- been to Texas 3 or 4 times, there are some parts (or so I've been told by reliable sources), where your "justification" would fly.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 19:20:20 (ZULU)


HOGs a pledge that I hope others jump on.  I purchased two tickets for the draw. I pledge this if I win either rifle it is going to Kent Gooch for his continued selfless service to our country and world. Only the best do what he has and then give away his only sniper rifle to help the church. I hope who ever wins in this will do the same.

Mike/Undude

Mike Miller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 19:44:08 (ZULU)



Mr. W.R. Moore - I didn't post a summary. I posted, verbatim, the exact language of the Texas Penal Code with respect to using deadly force to defend property. If there are any questions, a Google search will turn up the rest of the Penal Code, which is on-line.

This is still, by God, Texas. Last year, the graduation ceremony of our high-school senior was opened with a prayer AND the Pledge of Allegiance - the flag was escorted by an honor guard carrying rifles.  And it was closed with another prayer.

And Californians fleeing the tyranny of that state's laws are welcome.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 19:49:04 (ZULU)


All;

Alabama is still open and free. Please feel free to come here. We have very few gun laws and are right in the middle of the Bible belt.

Besides, I need more shooting buddies.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 20:40:52 (ZULU)


Dad?  I hope I qualify, though sometimes I feels so totally inadequate and hopeless.

Spent all morning next to the rugby field with Hendré's rugby, and then whole afternoon at the range with Marnus.  (150gr Hornady BTSP, launched at about 1930fps from the 30-06, prints to about 1 1/5" at 50 meters - when he concentrates.)  Helped coach Marnus's rugby team in grade 1, coached them in grade 2, now helps with Hendré's in grade 2, coached Hendré's cricket team last year.  When Marnus plays chess tournaments I sit there Friday after work and then whole day Saturday.  Not all of the above necessarily always with a smile and without bitching and moaning sometimes, but I try...  Elmíne doesn't play any games yet, and I don't think I'll fit as a netball coach for grade 1 girls :-)  But when the games start ...

'Lito,

you hang in there.

Gooch,

Good to hear about the boy, and that his DAD is leading him on the right path.  May God be with you, and this new venture of yours as well.  Yes, God works strange ways sometimes...

Marius

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 21:04:16 (ZULU)


Just gotto share this one guys - knows it is old, but still good...

Life insurance sales:

=====================

Bubba Joe's first military assignment was to a military induction center, and, because he was a good talker, they assigned him the duty of advising new recruits about the government benefits, especially the GI insurance to which they were entitled.

Before long the Captain in charge of the induction center began noticing that Bubba was getting a 99% sign up for the top GI insurance. This was odd, because it would cost these poor inductees nearly $30.00 per month more for their higher coverage than what the government was already granting.

The Captain decided that he would sit in the back of the room and observe Bubba's sales pitch. Bubba Joe stood up before his latest group of inductees and stated, "If you have the normal GI insurance and go to Iraq and are killed, the government pays your beneficiary $6,000."

"If you take out the supplemental GI insurance, which will cost you an additional $30.00 per month, the government pays your beneficiary $200,000."

"Now," Bubba concluded, "which bunch do you think they're gonna send into combat first?"

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 21:27:52 (ZULU)



Rod - those are some good thoughts.  I am afraid that it would be futile though.  Even if the US suppliers got together and turned this type of tyranny on its ear...some foreign arms maker (i.e. Winchester, Browning) who is used to serving tyranical governements would gladly arm our police and military forces while leaving we lowly serfs in the learch.

Lindy - I have thought about TX for a while.  I believe that I will now put some effort behind that thought as it seems to be a place I could call home.  Thanks for that kick in the pants (aka reminder).  I'll be in Dallas in a couple of weeks and will poke around the outskirts to get an idea of the real estate and the flavor of the place.  I always live at least an hours drive outside any major city because I'd rather live close to my hobbies than my work.

Jody - noted.  Lived in Alabama for a little while.  Good place.  Good people.  Cheap land.  Not so many jobs though.  Will keep it in mind.

Marius - LOL - new one for me.  Thanks for that.  I'll pass that one on.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 21:34:01 (ZULU)



Thanks to Ken my roster address now works.  He made an effort that he didn't have to make.  Ken is a good man.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 21:47:42 (ZULU)


CDC - sorry to hear of your problems.  Hang in there, sir.

Deadly Force - Florida will soon (1 Oct) be a betterer place to hang your hat.  We already have concealed carry.  And shortly we will have what has been referred to as the "Castle Doctrine" law.  

Basically stated, if you have a legal right to be in "a place" then you have the legal right to defend yourself (or someone else) with deadly force, circumstances permitting.  That means anywhere, anytime, anyhow.  Your house, your job, your car, the street, the market, the mall, the swimming hole, jogging, running, walking, etc, etc, etc.

And the perp, dead (through his family) or alive, cannot file a civil lawsuit against you for "violating" his civil rights by shooting his ass full of lead.

Come on down!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 22:16:22 (ZULU)


LTChip: Tac Pro Shooting Center, which is run by Ex-SBS sniper and British special forces sniper instructor Bill Davison and his lovely wife Alice, is southwest of Fort Worth - if you find the town of Mingus on the map on Interstate 20, they're just south of there, out in the country. They have a nice 1000-yard range, and they are also the biggest Accuracy International dealer in the country. So, if you're looking around that area, you might want to lean in that direction.

Click on my name for their web site, which has maps.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 22:46:04 (ZULU)


Chip, I live about 30 minutes from Lindy. I have a dove lease that has five tracts of land within five miles of my house. I have permission to shoot my rifles on this land when it's not dove season, which runs from some time in September to around the end of December I think. You can stretch a .50 BMG out on any of these pieces of land if you have one and want to.

The down side to the area is that it's pretty hot here in the summer time, usually from around June to October. There's plenty of mosquitos too.

The good side is that there's no snow to shovel, well, we had six inches on Christmas this year, first time in about 80 years though. There's also a real 1000 yard range with pits and the whole deal withing 30 minutes of my house too.

Tony Burkes Email this member See this member's profile
ALVIN, TEXAS, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 22:48:28 (ZULU)


LouAnn,

I hunt for a living and I'd be happy to help in any way I could, I am easily reachable thru my website via phone or email, or email me your # and I'll call you back.

Lt. Chip,

I will second the move to Floriduh. No state income taxes, great carry laws, no goofy requirements on owning or obtaining firearms and ammo. There are a whole bunch of great folks here, and if you still want to be shooting buddies with Jody, it's only one state over.

Dan,

Hang in there, man. And don't give up on the sport! There are probably still a bunch of folks around who can learn from your experiences.

Marius,

I'll try to call this week, I have some questions re: the Dullstrom thing's viability and maybe a good lawyer's recommendation there in Pretoria I could talk to about playing C.M.A. for real estate and corporations. Maybe you know someone or something? I'll try to call Wednesday around 17.00 or 18.00 your time.

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
PSL, FL, US - Saturday, May 7, 2005, at 22:50:41 (ZULU)


"Castle Doctrine" law:

In Colorado, we call ours the "Make My Day" law.

A little old lady used it to blow a peeping-tom away from her window with a shotgun. Nice.

Hank Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 00:57:55 (ZULU)



ALL - RAFFLE STATUS - WE HIT 509 TICKETS THIS EVENING!! YIPEEE!!

THAT MEANS THE REGISTRATION WILL CLOSE IN LESS THAN 48 HOURS. IF YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR TICKET - YOU NEED TO GET TO GETTIN' 'EM.....

WE WILL KEEP THE REGISTRATION OPEN UNTIL MONDAY EVENING BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE SPELLED OUT IN OUR RULES SECTION.

WE'VE CALLED FOR PAYMENTS ON THE INTERNAL MAILING LIST OF ALL THAT ARE REGISTERED.....

HANG IN THERE FOLKS -- THERE'LL BE TWO PROUD RIFLE HOLDERS.....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 01:55:16 (ZULU)


LTChip,  Check this out while your in Texas.   http://www.fwssc.org/index.html.  Civilians can only shoot on weekends, or so I’ve been told.  Have shot in their 1000 yard matches and they were very well run.  Good luck.

HDR

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 02:02:20 (ZULU)


Sister in law has a pistol. Llama. Made in Spain. Parabellum. Not that have not worked with this type of gun before. Anyone have any knowledge on the quality. Trying to get it apart to clean it. Any help. Looked to have a push rod on the side. Looks like a smut pot inside. Its a 9mm.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 02:47:33 (ZULU)


Lindy I couldn't agree with you more, Tac Pro, and especially Bill and Alice and the entire family, geese and all, are top notch.  It's a great facility, and I have meet with the locals who have been there for matches and such, and you couldn't meet a better group of people from the area of Mingus.  If you have the opportunnity to go there you won't regret it.   And by the way Alice is the S2 so speak with her for your AI needs.

TonyY Email this member See this member's profile
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 03:10:56 (ZULU)



Does anyone know if it is legal to throw in some ammo on a gun deal?  After going to all of the expense and trouble of working up loads then making a couple hundred rounds of good ammo, it would be a shame to just toss it.

Duman:  I've been using Dillon spray lube in the pump bottle for a couple of years.  It seems to work fine.  The RCBS stuff in the pump bottle seems okay too.  The Imperial wax works great but is slow.  

All:  Thanks for all the kind thoughts, but I really am doing fine.  Getting the occasional dread disease is just one of life's little joys.  It happens to everyone.  The only reason I mentioned being the shakiest gun in the West is to assure the guys here that I am trying to find some of my guns good homes and not trying to unload lemons.  If I could still hold steady, I wouldn't consider parting with them.  The .300 and I had big plans.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 07:05:52 (ZULU)


CDC...

>"Does anyone know if it is legal to throw in some ammo on a gun deal?  After going to all of the expense and trouble of working up loads then making a couple hundred rounds of good ammo, it would be a shame to just toss it."<

Yup!

-

youz guys that have sent me e-mails in the last couple of days - I can't answer.  I use Netscape and have Norton "Antivirus - Corporate edition"

Unfortunatly, when a virus comes in attached to an e-mail, Norton doesn't flag that offending e-mail and say "delete this trash"... NOoooooo, that would make too much sense.

It just delets the whole friggin' inbox, so I have lost everything (the forth time in 6 months - total e-mails lost exceeds over 6,000 :(

So if you needed an answer, just resend it.

I'm going back to my Mac 9600 for e-mails, as soon as I can find the cables.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 08:08:22 (ZULU)



Lindy-I said summary 'cause the first paragraph referred to a previous code section that wan't there:)))    No insult intended here but just 'cause a legislature passes a law doesn't mean it will withstand judical review. Good many laws overturned-the no guns within 1000 feet of a school was one.  One of my law course instructors way back when made 2 good points: 1.  Ya ever notice how many landmark cases (Miranda, Escodrobo etc) get made over dirtbags?  2.  You don't want to be the test case for any new law or the star of an appelate process.   Oh yeah, point made by another instructor: homicide defense will cost your $30-40K up front. Worth it if it's someones butt, their car........?

Now I gotta grant that Texas seems to have an enlightened attitude toward use of force, but I personally don't want to be a test case on that particular law.  There's still similar law on the books here (recover property) in Virginia-or there was when I reviewed it in 1988 when I moved here.  Not gonna test that one either.  The standard justification is "when your life or the life of another innocent person is in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury [great/grevious bodily harm may apply depending upon the terminology in your state.]".  Defending an occupied dwelling against arson generally falls in that catagory.

By the way, I say again:"I AM NOT A LAWYER"!  I have been carrying guns for a living for over 25 years.  Lawyers get about 1 hour on use of force.  I've got a lot more.

'Lito-guess you didn't get my email reply then:  Hit me if you didn't.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 13:12:13 (ZULU)


WR...

Your last e-mail came in 20 minutes after the zap, but I have nothing else.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 14:18:40 (ZULU)



'Lito- followup email on way.  Real briefly, 42 USC 1983 is the federal code section that lets citizen sue governments for violations to their civil rights by government employees acting under color of law.  More detail in followup.  Wait for state finding then hit 'em with a 20 lb sledge.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 14:45:50 (ZULU)



W.R. - if you notice the date on the citation, that act of the legislature dates back more than 30 years. There have been numerous cases involving that section since, so the statute has been tested many times - and it hasn't been overturned. Could it be at some point? Sure - and the sun will, eventually, become a red giant, and end all life in this solar system.

Like you, my personal preference is not to find out, and, as noted, that deals with criminal prosecution, not civil suits. These days, anyone who finds it necessary to shoot someone, also as you noted, is going to spend a lot of money for lawyers. I'd rather spend my money on guns and liquor.

I was just pointing out what the law here is.

I think we're all agreed that it's better not to use deadly force unless absolutely necessary.

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 15:32:53 (ZULU)


>>>Does anyone know if it is legal to throw in some ammo on a gun deal?  After going to all of the expense and trouble of working up loads then making a couple hundred rounds of good ammo, it would be a shame to just toss it.<<<

Dan, nothing wrong with including some ammo in with a gun deal, like 'lito said.

BUT, as these are handloads, you MIGHT open yourself up to liability issues if something should go wrong.  Would you buy handloaded ammo from someone you don't know?  Or do know?

Not to say that you are a crummy handloader but WHAT IF you happened to blink while pouring powder, seating the bullet, seating the primer, whatever, and that one cartridge goes FUBAR in a stranger's gun?

Something to think about.

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 17:18:18 (ZULU)


It,s kind of ironic that the subject of the use of deadly force should come up now.Last night I heard a noise from the driveway and went to investigate with 45 in hand.Found in the front seat of my work truck,a man with a trash bag full of tools,cd's,company cards,etc.etc. At that moment i decided not to use any force and he got away.Do I like being ripped off? No.Do I think taking a persons life is worth a couple of hundred dollars?No.Do I have a Concealed Weapon or Firearm License in the state of Florida?YES.

Im glad that i happened to read a recent post on these same circumstances.What that did for me was to go through the scenario and put myself in those shoes before it transpired.Result:no shots fired.

However,had this happened in my house,I would have,without hesitation, exercised the "Castle Doctrine"

Scott S Email this member See this member's profile
Key West, FL, U.S.A. - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 18:09:32 (ZULU)



Moe:  "BUT, as these are handloads, you MIGHT open yourself up to liability issues if something should go wrong.  Would you buy handloaded ammo from someone you don't know?  Or do know?"

That is a valid point.  

"Not to say that you are a crummy handloader but WHAT IF you happened to blink while pouring powder, seating the bullet, seating the primer, whatever,..."

Every case's flashhole is hand deburred.  Every primer pocket is squared up by hand.  Every charge was weighed with a balance scale and hand trickled to dead on.  OAL for each bullet was determined using the magic marker/microscope/dial caliper/binary search trick.  Run-out was checked out with a Brown's Little Wiggler.  Case expansion was checked with a micrometer.  Standard deviation on bullet speeds is good.

There are 100 cases in the MTM 200 Accubond box.  ALL OF THE BRASS IS GOOD.  49 are loaded, safe in this rifle, and consistent with my drop charts.  15 are loaded, safe in this rifle, and will work fine for most anything.  I was not sure that those 15 rounds are, at very long distances, consistent with my drop charts.  

There are 100 cases in the MTM 190 SMK box.  88 are loaded, safe in this rifle and consistent with my drop charts.  There were 12 cases with measurements that I didn't quite trust for accuracy.  I won't go in to the reasons here.  IT IS SAFE IN THIS RIFLE.  5 have been fired.  It worked fine.  7 are loaded.  Those 7 will probably work fine too.

Using both of these loads, this rig was competitive at 1,000 yards with very nice rigs that cost more than my truck is worth.  This one used a bipod and one of Mike Miller's beany babies.  They used bench set-ups.  This ammo works in this rifle.

"...and that one cartridge goes FUBAR in a stranger's gun?"

I think that anybody who hangs out here and buys .300 WM like this should be beyond making a rookie f***-up like that.  I'm going to see that it goes to a good home.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 21:04:37 (ZULU)


Thanks for the feedback from everyone. Growing up where I did and what i have learned makes me a bit guarded. The bottom line on my soon to be ex broter in law is that he is not worth jail time. He is a 2 time loser with 2 convictions for drugs. He is not worth my efforts. If I need to use what I have learned it is always there and will never leave me. I will not waste any more time on him. Thanks to all. It never was anger. It was offensive protection. I learned that as a child. Protect family at all cost, even at the cost of your own life. God Bless family and God Bless America.

Happy Mothers day to all mothers and to all that have them.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 21:11:32 (ZULU)


re: handloading

Not as a license to get stupid, but it's a bit easier to check handloaded larger rifle cartridges (say .223 and above) than pistol cartridges.  Brass prep with exception of flash holes can be re-checked afterwards. Provided you're using 90% plus load density powder, it's easy to check that there is enough but not too much powder in the case.  Only real kicker would be use of wrong powder.

Pistol ammo by contrast uses small amounts of powder relative to weight of the whole cartridge, so verification by weight or shaking is much more difficult.  

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 21:49:15 (ZULU)


CDC;

There shouldn't be a problem with throwing in the ammo. However, I believe you will need to ship the ammo seperately.

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, May 8, 2005, at 22:33:18 (ZULU)



Ammo shipping - very very very very very wise to ship ammo seperately - from the weapon - ie packaged in a seperate box and shipped seperately..... just to keep the boogyman from gettin hold of both too easily....

Raffle status - we've hit 516 tickets.... we've called for payments in the background.... We'll close the registry tomorrow evening around this time.... If you're holding out on a ticket - ya better get yer butt in gear and get one.....

take care all....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 01:49:11 (ZULU)


Mike,

I didn't get that part of Kent's deal before. Is this his only rifle? I just assumed that a guy like him would have several.

I'm very content with my SCLE #26 but if I win I pledge to send it to him and keep #1 LOL. Seriously, I'll do it if he is without a rifle of that level of quality. Don't get excited though Gooch 'cuz I only win bad luck :)

Actually, I have a problem with my #26 that George is going to have to figure out. It's gone from a quarter minute rifle to a one minute plus rifle in 2,500 rounds. I think I probably damaged the barrel somehow. The only thing for sure is that I've done something stupid. It's only a question of exactly what I did. I'll talk about it more and share it with you all for your enjoyment after he repairs it. Maybe other rookies can learn something from my dumbass mistake.

Marc

MarcS Email this member See this member's profile
CV, CA, - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 02:22:42 (ZULU)


Marc:

Just to ask the obvious, what are you using to remove the jacket fouling from the bore?  You need to be using a copper solvent or a softer-than-steel abrasive like RemClean or JB paste.

Did you use a bore guide when cleaning?  Single-piece cleaning rod either with steel, carbon fibre or coated?

(I had a Quick look on GA Precision's web site, could not find their cleaning recommendations.)

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 10:37:00 (ZULU)


Marc, if you are near Santa Clara Ca, I am teaching a four hour class on gear and cleaning of sniper rifles May 22, at Reeds Indoor Range.  Should be able to see what your problem is. My understanding is this is Gooch's only Sniper rifle.

CDC, I would shoot your reloads any day. Sorry to hear of your medical problems.  Get a good doctor that specializes in this and he can do wonders with meds.

Pablito, makes you want to treat her like an Afghan. Count to 1 billion first.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 13:52:15 (ZULU)


Before using JB's, do a search on this site.  JR had some comments and recommendations.  He would know.

For metal fouling, Sweet's makes your rig shoot sweet and it smells sweet.

Speaking of JR, where did he go?

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 9, 2005, at 15:11:25 (ZULU)


CDC, I'll be happy to buy your ammo if it comes to that and I promise not to sue. I have a few 300WM's that I'm sure they will work just fine in. S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 9, 2005, at 18:36:09 (ZULU)


SNIPERQUEST.......SNIPERQUEST........SNIPERQUEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gang have a few slots left we'd like to fill!! If you haven't signed up yet go to www.badlandstactical.net or follow the links on Sniper Countrys front page!

One HECK of a lot of good prizes and table grows daily!!

Hope to see you'all there!!

Sarge

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 18:47:52 (ZULU)


Robert,

Wednesday should be fine.  Just tell me, what is "CMA"?  Lawyers?  Don't know too many of those things - bad critters them are, just ask 'Lito ... :-)

Hogs,

I'm starting to work on the HotTips again, but that is going to be a long process.  I plan to start with the current Roster and slowly work backwards.  Once I've got enough stuff to post I'll do that and work up again ...  I will spend at least one night a week on that.  Only by timing myself like that will I be getting anything done.  Let's hope I can keep it up, reading through all that stuff again.  Some of you guys ... :-)  After all, since the new Roster format, there has been almost 38000 posts, and that is not counting the old Roster where it was just one big file that grew bigger every time ...  But I do this in the knowledge that by reading this I can only learn.  And believe you me, I've got lots to learn ...

I'll see exactly how, but I'll try and break any subject up into years, so that one can see the changes through the years.  If you want to read on it, and you only want to read the last couple of years' stuff it iwll be easier.  I've not quite decided how, but it will be something like off hte main HotTips page, link to "Drag Bags".  That page will open with an entry for every year something was said (which I think is) worth repeating - thus:

Drag Bags:

- 1995

- 1996

- 1999

- 2000

- 2004

- 2005

Each will be a link to a page with the relevant entries.  Hope that will work - we'll see.

Tested some loads with a new powder on Saturday.  180gr hunting bullets (monometal expanding solids) from the 30-06.  "New" (old, discontinued, now being marketed again) ball powder by Somchem.  Minimum load 58, max 62gr of powder, start with 180gr bullet up.  Started with 59gr, .5gr increments to 61.5gr.  First load gave velocities just short of 2800fps!  Went up to almost 2900 but really punishing.  61.5gr loads came down to 2750fps!!  I shall not be loading close to max powder and close to the lands ...

Marius Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 9, 2005, at 19:00:20 (ZULU)


Nice commentary of the state of our union by Judge Roy Moore:

America the Beautiful,

or so it used to be.

Land of the Pilgrims' pride;

I'm glad they'll nver see.

Babies piled in dumpsters,

Abortion on demand,

Oh, sweet land of liberty;

your house is on the sand.

Our children wander aimlessly

poisoned by cocaine,

Choosing to indulge their lusts,

when God has said abstain.

From sea to shining sea,

our Nation turns away

From the teaching of God's love

and a need to always pray.

We've kept God in our temples,

how callous we have grown.

When earth is but His footstool,

and Heaven is His throne.

We've voted in a government

that's rotting at the core,

Appointing Godless judges

who throw reason out the door.

Too soft to place a killer

in a well deserved tomb,

But brave enough to kill a baby

before he leaves the womb.

You think that God's not angry,

that our land's a moral slum?

How much longer will He wait

before His judgement comes?

How are we to face our God,

from Whom we cannot hide?

What then is left for us to do,

but stem this evil tide?

If we who are His children,

will humbly turn and pray;

Seek His holy face

and mend our evil way:

Then God will hear from Heaven

and forgive us of our sin,

He'll heal our sickly land

and those who live within.

Bit, America the Beautiful,

if you don't - then you will see,

A sad but Holy God

withdraw His hand from Thee.

~ Judge Roy Moore

Scott F. Email this member See this member's profile
Hillbillyland, USA - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 20:17:54 (ZULU)



Marc and Rod...

JB bore paste = VERY BADD!

For youz new guys, guys from Rio Linda, and others that don't know who "JR" is, lemme tell ya'

JR is one of the finest barrel makers IN THE WORLD.

He was one of only two people that made the "Standards barrels" that SAAMI and all ammunition factories use to test ammunition - he was the top barrel maker at HS Precision Rifles (and when he left, they started having complaints about accuracy from their new barrels).  JR was imported into Scottland by Border Barrels (at great expense) to make match barrels for them.

Now that you know who he is... do a search in the Sniper Country archives for "JB" and read what he says.

JB bore paste is NOT softer than steel - it will wear your barrels out.

If you don't believe that, then take a new buffing wheel, and put JB on it, and then buff a piece of steel - it will open your eyes (F-A-S-T)

-

Hey JR... let loose of them Scottish lassies panties and drop a paragraph on the Roster !!! :))

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 21:11:21 (ZULU)


Marius, CMA=cover my a$$! Lawyers, expensive when they're on your side, boat anchors when they aren't. Unfortunately nowadays, the other side always has them and we wind up needing them. Not many handshake dealers left in the world. Ag, shame.

Totsiens, Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 9, 2005, at 21:14:14 (ZULU)


Hillbilly,

Ironic that your quote is from a Judge.

FYI - You could have said the same exact thing several other ways that didn't divide the country into religious and non-religious camps.. belief in God does not make you a decent and honorable person.

"Yes, we did produce a near perfect republic, but will they keep it, or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundanc without character is the surest way to destruction."

--Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good

when America ceases to be good she will cease to be great".

- Alexis de Tocqueville

"When people are universally ignorant, and debauched in their manners,

they will sink under their own weight without the aid of foreign

invaders." --Samuel Adams

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 9, 2005, at 21:30:01 (ZULU)


Hey gents I need a little help with this Llama pistol if possible. I called the main importer and it looks like the gun is well over 30 years old. I did get it apart. Like to have never got it back together. What an interesting design. Anyway, they did not have a record of the model since it was so old. Not sure if it is a 9mm luger or 9mm largo. Does anyone know the difference. Also the clip that it had in it was for a colt 38 super. So it did not match. Not even sure it will feed correctly. I am not going to find out at the cost of a fake sun burn either. Where can I get out of date clips for import pistols. The design is close to a 1911. It is a single action auto. Looks to be stainless construction. The only model is Llama parabellum. I had to pry the clip out. Needless to say it does not match well.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 21:49:07 (ZULU)


re: Cleaning

Walt Berger is still recommending Moly, Kroil, Butches Bore Shine and USP Bore Paste (similar to JB's is my understanding).

http://www.bergerbullets.com/faq.htm

There are High Power shooters still using moly, Kroil and JB's.

One of my problems is that due to limited range time, I have to clean indoors.  Difficult using any of the solvent-based systems without gassing myself out!

http://www.jacksonrifles.com/maintenance.htm

Some love JB's, some hate it on this page:

http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/Cleaning.htm

http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_breakin.html

By Jack Kreiger

(Break-In and Cleaning)

"...Abrasive cleaners work very well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of polishing the throat both in "break in" and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life."

So, opinions vary...

Pie fight, anyone? {grin}.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 22:35:28 (ZULU)


Hillbilly and MedicJim

You know I see so much each day at work that I wonder if the fabric of this land will hold together. I see mans inhumanity to man. There is good things and there are the shining stars. But the crap sticks in your head. The rapes, the broken bones and the pain you see in the eyes. Mostly due to family not being family. I guess that's why I guard mine so hard. That world out there can be a mean one. I leave that world at my fence each day and God walks with me. As long as I can I will protect my family. I pray each day for blessings and guidance. This country needs that too I feel. It is better but it has a ways to go. Goodness needs to be heard.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Monday, May 9, 2005, at 22:42:26 (ZULU)



Zane- if'n that Llama has "parabellum" stamped/engraved into the slide it's probably a 9mm Luger/Parabellum.  I say probably cause unless it's also stamped in the barrel, the barrel might have been changed.

The 9mm Largo is similar to the old 38 Auto NOT THE 38 SUPER!!!!! The Super operates at MUCH higher pressures. The 9mm Bergman-Bayard is either the same round with different terminology or a very similar cartridge.  If you can find a 38 auto/super case, see if it will chamber.  If so, it's 9mm Largo/B-B.  Hope this helps.  BTW, Dillon Precision had a sale on new production 9mm B-B an issue or 2 back.  The 38 super mag kinda hints at a case longer than 9mm Parabellum.

I wouldn't recommend it, but long time back a buddy had an Astra 400 in 9mm Largo/B-B and it ran fine on 38 Auto ammo.

Oh yeah, there's a company called Triple K that either has your mags or if you'll send a sample will make you mags.  You want to get an estimate on that last one first.  30 years old isn't really that old.  You could also try GPI/Numrich.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 9, 2005, at 23:26:37 (ZULU)


rod...

My piece of pie...

>"They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of polishing the throat both in "break in" and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. "<

Uh... Duh... I got to ask for a moment of sanity here (I know that's askin' a lot from this bunch).

If the stuff (JB, or USP) can polish out the "roughness" out of the throat, then the stuff is HARDER than steel - science says that if you rub two things together, the harder one will wear, scrape, score, or damage the softer one.  That's not "my" opinion, that's 10 grade science.

There is a lot of BS on the web... even from some big names.  Cuz someone shoots well, does NOT mean they had a degree in metalurgy, or have indepth knowledge in science/physics.

The bull that has been posted on some of the sites (the "Hide" for example), by "Pros' is laughable - often they are also trying to sell something.

You wanna use JB or USP, be my guest.  I won't say any more about it.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 00:02:27 (ZULU)


HOGS -- RAFFLE STATUS -- REGISTRATION ENDS IN LESS THAN ONE HOUR.... WE'RE AT 530 TICKETS.....

GET YER TICKET ......

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 00:45:00 (ZULU)


Roy Moore;

Rumor has it Roy Moore is considering running for Governor. I hope so.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 00:50:45 (ZULU)


Barrels; hummmm? Let's think about this....Does it matter if the barrel is smooth. Most will answer yes. So if the barrel is new and cut roughly....or less than polished. (sans Savage buttons or Chinese bargain basement Remingtons or Ruger whatevers makes them so rough. Then perhaps a abrasive compund would help in that case for a very short time. But we're going to send heat and copper down that barrel at tremendous temperatures, (translate hi pressure)and soon rough becomes a bit smoother from use. This guy thinks he's done some good because his barrel is shooting better after the abrasive treatment. But then there's the "rifleman"(Sniper) who buys precision and smooth up front. He's going to send the same charge of fire and copper down his barrel but it's going to be pointless as far as smoothing up the barrel from use. Now we's all seem to agree that the condition of the throat is the main cause of accuracy extraordinare when coupled with smooth fine cut barrels or I'll spill my Scotch if JR disagrees with me on that one. So I'd have to conclude there are good points to both sides and probably some good logic even to Moly if you want to lube things up a little but as a real gotta get the first one in the desired target at all cost Sniper would probably not want something as unpredictable as Moly strewn through his rifling on the first shot. But the match shooter might appreciate it after 50 or 60 rounds into the match and maybe another few rounds of accuracy life although I doubt if that ever happens in real life. I won't take sides any more than that but barrels shoot as a curve of bad to good to bad for cheap to good to better and back to good and then to bad in my humble experience. There's no JB in my barrels or anything else when I finish cleaning them. No lube in my bolt channel or locking lugs or in my chamber or on my cases if I can help it. I've satisfied myself with own SWAG and experiments that the first shot out of a rifle had better be the good one and thereafter be there little change and that's good.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 01:01:11 (ZULU)


WR Moore

Thanks for the info. I am not sure on the gun. My gut feeling is that the clips were lost and the 38 super was the only thing they found to fit it. It does not function well. I had to hold down the mag release and pry the mag loose. The bullet throw looks to be a bit long. It had 9mm luger in the gun when I got it. I will see if 38s will chamber. I have a box or 2 around here somewhere. Lord help me if my place ever catches on fire. Snap, crackle, and pop. I am hedding for the hills.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 01:11:30 (ZULU)



HOGS - RAFFLE STATUS - CEASE FIRE CEASE FIRE --- REGISTRATION HAS ENDED.... IT'S TIME TO GET THOSE TICKET PAYMENTS IN -- SO GET TO YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNTS OR GET OUT THAT PEN AND GET THAT CHECK / MONEY ORDER IN THE MAIL -

I WANT TO HAVE BE ABLE TO HAVE THE DRAWING SOON....

THANKS ALL -

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 01:44:41 (ZULU)


Hey Catman, I will bite. I am a member at many sites and that includes the Hide. What have you seen there so wrong about cleaning?

I have used JB on bad bbls many times to improve the fouling problem (IE Remington Factory) I dont see it being any different than lapping very slowly. Now I dont use it on a good bbl or often just when I have one stuck on coppper.

Have you tried the new Hoppes Ellite. They sent me some to try and it works fairly well and I am told its non toxic.  I got them to donate a bunch to some guys in Iraq and they liked it also.  Give me your thoughts on it, since I ahve only used it for six months to a year but not constantly.  I still love my Shooters Choice or Butchs Bore Shine fopllowed by clean out with just plain Hoppes #9 and then oil and dryed out.

Brass brushes, jag tip, coated rods and bore guides.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 02:11:56 (ZULU)


Undude/Mike

For cleaning I use hoppes #9 to start on the bore. Use a good clean bore snake. Secondly I use prolix. It cleans and lubes well. Leaves a dry lube film with no gummy over time. The bore is slick as a whistle. I also use prolix Tlube on some major slide parts. Now sometimes I will soke my parts in simple green. It works very well. It depends on how dirty the parts are. Prolix works pretty well and cuts my clean time down. The Tlube holds up over time and does not get gummy. The prolix and Tlube are non toxic. So is the simple green.  I use the hoppes because it works. The prolix is the finishing touch.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 02:55:59 (ZULU)


Undude:  I do the same:  JB in the baaaad barrels.  Maybe I just want whatever accuracy it has to "go away" to justify a new pipe--but other than getting the copper out fast--I see no improvements to fouling or accuracy by its use.  A bad barrel is just that--bad.  JB can't hurt, and as I've seen, doesn't help anything but cleaning speed.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 05:03:27 (ZULU)


Hi again everyone.  Thanks for all the input to my earlier question about scopes.  I've got another one for the experts:  Anyone have any experience with or knowledge of the Armalite AR-30?

I'm thinking of picking one up in .338 for extreme long range, and maybe in .308 or .300 for normal ranges.  Anyone know how reliable and accurate it is?  I love the way this thing looks, and the price is great too, but not at the expense of accuracy.  Any info or advice would be very welcome.

Thanks again.

RC

RC Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 13:29:57 (ZULU)


I use the JB Bore Bright in all my barrels after about 500 rounds to clean the deposits out. I first use a normal solvent and clean as I would normally, and then use the Bore Bright. I use those VFG felt plugs on a cleaning rod to swab the bore out. I do it like I do having sex, so I'm finished in about 15 or 20 strokes. Then I clean the barrel again normally. I think the thing about using abrasives is not to be too agressive with them. I can't tell any difference in accuracy after using the JB which is a good thing in a premium barrel. My conclusion is if you're going to use JB, don't use it frequently or agressively.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter Email this member See this member's profile
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 14:49:59 (ZULU)


Kind of like Comet in the sink! If it's not too bad don't grind off the chrome. Injunsanger you make too much sense.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 17:03:01 (ZULU)



30 years is old for a gun?  Naw, if you treated her right she is still a pup.  

Mike and Joe M:  I use Shooter's then use MEK or carb cleaner to remove the Shooter's from the bore and chamber.  Absolutely every time I do that, in any barrel, the Shooter's takes out the black gunk but leaves copper.  When I push through a patch of any of the strong ammonia products, wait 15 minutes, then push through another patch, it comes out a lovely shade of dark greenish-blue.  If I wrote names for Sherwin-Williams, I would call the color "Deep Carribean Azure".  

(Sounds kind of evocative, don't you think?  Makes you want to drink rum out of a pineapple and take off your clothes.  Sweet's does that to me.)

That happens in very good barrels,  in so-so barrels, and in beater Rugers.  Hoppe's after the Shooter's makes me feel good, but the Sweet's patches still come out blue.

I updated my ads in the Emporium.  My return Email now works and there's better info.  If you want to hit things hard at very long ranges but are on a budget, or you are shopping for an AR, check it out.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 17:13:26 (ZULU)



RC:  I was chatting idly with someone overseas...subject AR-30.  All I remember now is that for some reason, it seems like a good deal for the money and caliber.  A poor man's long range stick.  I wish I could recall the specifics--but all that stuck was the endorsement.  

I prefer Hoppe's copper solvent...but have used sweets after number 9 for the carbon issues.  Haven't really compared one to the other---but to use sweets after #9, I am far more careful to remove the first chemical before using the second.  MEK?  That stuff is nasty-bad, and will absorb thru skin (membrane permeable or some such warning)---along with all the chromosonal issues.  If you don't grow the third eye yourself---your kids might.  That keeps me away.  Acetone and denatured alcohol are my two substitutes.

NJ is at it again.  This time they combined my two push-button issues into one nightmare.  Property rights and firearms.  Why anyone wants to live among that rubish is beyond my understanding.  Good jobs?  Do a cost of living comparison.  I live on a fixed income and move all over.  The additional allowances keep a floor on the low end---but in certain areas--I do not get these extra pays, yet I live far better---princely in fact.  Alabama was one such area where 30K is a great wage.  read the article.  Then figure out all the ways they can screw ya.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44183

The other thing that got my attention in the news was that shooting in CA.  10 Cops unlaoded their pieces at less than seven yards to the target (120+ rounds fired) and only managed to wound the suspect.  heheh.  That sucks bad.  Worse, as the SUV rolled forward the cops on the flanks turned to each other, setting up a blue on blue crossfire situation.  In pilot-speak, we call that target lock.  The last thing you do on that kind of gun run is drive through your target (kamakazee style).  It happens, and therefore it gets talked about.  Knowing is half the battle.  Why did these guys allow that to happen?  Injuries resulted.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-chase10may10,0,2324774.story?coll=la-home-headlines

The video is pathetic.  The newsies speculated that the suspect was armed due to the deputy getting shot---but I could se plainly that they shot each other.  Lucky---plain luck--that noone was hurt worse.  Personally, luck is nice, but I'd hate to rely on it.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 17:31:45 (ZULU)


I been using something called Blue Magic fo the bo. I think there is one other here who do also. Anybody know how this stuff is supposed to work?There is no Ammonia or any other harsch chemical involved. The smell is no way offensive and it's like a melted vasoline in appearance and texture. Safe around kids and pets. It will clean a surface so that even cold blue will go on and last almost as good as hot blue. The copper just goes away and you can leave it as long as you want without having any adverse affects. It dries like a paste but is still easy to remove. Occasionally I run a brass brush but usually it isn't needed except for real fast rounds.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 17:32:08 (ZULU)


Gents,

Seems like I'm not the only gent here that starts the cleaning regimen with Hoppe's #9.

I clean by wetting the bore with Hoppe's. Let sit a couple minutes and use a clean  wet bronze brush(in appropriate caliber). Usually up and back about 10 times using firm steady pressure both ways. Hoppe's wet patches until they come out clean(no black) Dry bore with clean dry patches.

Repeat using Shooter's Choice and 1/2 the number of strokes and let stand, muzzle down, for 10-15 minutes. Wet patch and repeat if necessary. Dry bore.

Wet patch with Hoppe's and dry the bore. Store rifle muzzle down.

For really copper fowled bores I use Sweet's 7.62.

Always start and end cleaning with Hoppe's...

I do not use JB or any other abrasive in my bores. Personal choice. I know there are folks that advocate and use JB, but I've never seen the need.

All for now...time to crawl under the house and finish the new insulation...yuch.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 17:39:00 (ZULU)


Cleaning stuff - I've had pretty good luck with that Montanna bore solvent... It smells abit more amonia'ic compared to hoppe's.... It does  find the copper. Take a very careful sniff if you're one of those that tries to analyze things by smell (like me) ....

Raffle's over, tidal wave of postal payments is starting to come in....

We'll be having that drawing before ya know it :)

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 17:57:01 (ZULU)



Joe M:  I did not express myself clearly.  That was not a cleaning routine.  It was a test.  It worked like this:  

1)  Use Shooter's to scrub out black gunk,

2)  remove all Shooter's from bbl and chamber with a solvent,

3)  Hoppe's #9,

4)  remove all Hoppe's,

5)  Sweet's patch,

6)  wait 15 minutes,

7)  Sweet's patch.

Results: Pina Coladas and Bermuda shorts.

If someone who uses only Hoppe's and Shooter's has some ammonia cleaner around, I would be interested to see what happens if you run a patch of it through a bore you cleaned using your method, wait a quarter hour, then do it again.  The whole test minus the coffee break would only take a few minutes.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 18:06:18 (ZULU)



For anyone looking at the service:  30K was a long, long time ago.  The pay is very respectable these days...pay charts are online if anyone is interested.

A long diatribe, ultimately asking for some help:  

Latest numbers have the army making less than half the recruiting goals last month.  That is following two bad months previously, though April is by far the worst yet.  

The media is portraying a negative image.  Iraq is war---but it is going our way in every measure from tactics to politics--yet that is not what people believe.  

My son cannot wait to join.  Most of youz know why.  It isn't because his dad BS'd him on glory and action (quite the contrary there)---but it is because his old man has a certain value set and a belief in his nation that rubbed off a little.  He wants to serve his country simply  because he loves his country.  He loves his country because he heard something other than the school indoctrination of historical revisionism.  He knows who Joshua Chamberlain is and what he did.  He knows why we have a republic and not a direct democracy.  He knows, word for word, what is said in the constitution.  He walked Chickamauga and Gettysburg and heard of great men doing impossible things for their love of freedoms, and knows the difference between loving states rights or federal principals over the simplistic and shallow slavery "sympton" of that larger illness.  He knows that we give more than all other nations combined to better mankind already---and he knows that much of this largesse gets corrupted by rogue regimes into personal wealth.  he knows that to teach a man to fish is better than handing out fish--and why this is always so.  He knows, in short, because I made sure he knows.  I know a little something too---he would never hear some of that in schools, even in the private ones he went to most of his life.  

And in knowing, he is solidly set to serve something as grand as all that.  For my part, I'd rather see him go to college.  But I know where it came from, and it is what got me on the same path.  If he can live with his choices--I'll figure out how I can too.  

But too many kids only hear what passes for civics today---hell, there is a nickelodean short on the air explaining the Alamo is all about slavery; dovetailing into the prevailing message that america is "bad."  It goes unchallenged all too often in kids lives.  

We have to talk to our kids.  We have to talk to grandkids.  We have to pass on all that is great---it is an oral history.  If everyone who feels as I do reaches a handful of kids with the "america is great" side of our story, perhaps we can stem this tide.  

Recruiting is just one measure of a larger slide.  The schools are but one tool in the kit of the leftists' assault on our basic freedoms.

But a citizen who stands up and counters their rhetoric with just one young mind undoes years of their efforts just that easily.  

It wasn't that long ago, really, when lines would form at the induction centers when there was a hint of war.  For many reasons, this is no longer the case.  Most kids just do not have a clue why they should bother---they do not see this country as anything special.  But to see the world is to know---this country is special.  there is no other like it.  It is time our kids hear that, unashamedly biased love for this nation and why it is OK to salute that flag...there are sooooo many great stories in the short history of our nation---yet none are being told in the places we fund for that learning.

It is up to us, everyone of us, to start telling that story to any and all who will listen.  

Go out there and help your local recruiters.  Volunteer, be a guest speaker at schools, pass along the literature.  Just give them a hand however and whenever you can.  Get the amvets, legion, VFWs mobilized.  There's the history, right there under our noses.  If a few take these small steps---it will add up little by little.  

Gents, it is being downplayed---but recruitment is off.  It is way off.  I especially do NOT want a draft (volunteers are so much easier to play soldier with...the draft is a nightmare in itself for leaders).

I'm out of this game---but I am not, really.  My old team is still around where I am now.  I still go to schools and speak, talk to kids one on one for SF or aviation (big initial commitments), or just pass along cards to plant the seeds around town.  

You want to serve your nation?  Then influence others to do the same.  If just one kid joins because you made some effort---you will have provided an invaluable service.  "Sheepdogs" make better citizens---the more of our youth who serve, the better the country will be in the future.  EMT, PD is tougher to get into---the military gives experience and isn't concerned with any lack thereof.  

If you can't think of anything to do---go ask.  The recruiter or the station commander is sure to have ideas.  And in todays environment, they need all the help they can get.  All services.  I'm feeling sorry for them all--I know how the command reacts to bad news, and it is not fun right now in their shoes.  I've heard no complaints; they are too proud for that---but I know.  They're getting their asses handed to them.  The command's first response is to work 20 instead of 18 hours a day, 7 instead of 6 days a week.  That will not help---but the bozos up the pressure cooker cannot be told otherwise.  

So, in a long winded rant---I'm asking everyone I know to help out the local recruiters.  I'm working on something ambitious in one town myself.  I'm also hitting up my team here to pitch in where they can.  

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 18:32:38 (ZULU)


Gents,

Joe, that is perhaps the best commentary on why we should serve our country. Because we "choose" too. That in itself is telling...

I'm doing my best to pass on my value package to my grand son. Hopefully, it will work and he won't get his fathers' "the world owes me" attitude. Yup, his dad's a sheeple.

Nicholas is bright, intelligent, and sensitive. Now it's up to me to ensure he's not overly sensitive (programmed). I get livid when I see and hear about some of the things our teachers are doing "for the greater good". I'm hoping there is a whiplash building.

This is perhaps why our youth is so attracted to gang influences. Something to belong to, be part of, fight for, etc. If they could only see or be taught that it already exhists...will stop for now.

Work beckon's. Time to put on the other uniform and salley forth.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 19:10:19 (ZULU)


Joe

Well said. Some where along the way things seem to have gotten twusted. Growing up there was an order of things. God,family, and country. Some how this seems lost today with a lot of youth. Makes sense to channel these kids on the right track. Maybe its media. They sure do twist things the wrong way. You never see the good we are doing in Iraq. It is twisted to the left.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 19:44:22 (ZULU)


....bore cleaning....

on a factory barrel, sometimes JB's one of the only ways to smooth it out.....a CUSTOM barrel should never need JB's....and some barrel makers (maybe Borders hey JR?) won't warrant a barrel of theirs if JB has been used in them.....

Iosso paste is a different story and is very useful in getting rid of tough carbon ring in the throat, and also copper....I like to short stroke the throat and muzzle(last 2" of barrel) with Iosso on a patch rapped around a nylon brush.....

If you like Montana Extreme, you'll LOVE Montana 50 BMG cleaner....made with ammonia OIL...it will not harm a barrel...and has been extenstively tested.....I've been using it for the past 2 months and am very pleased with its performance.....

Hey Bolt.....kisses !!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 22:32:52 (ZULU)


Medicjim,

"Belief in God does not make you a decent and honorable person."

To answer that, I would agree for "the devil believes in one God and trembles." Believing is not enough for we must walk in His footsteps and to follow His word "line upon line and precept upon precept" and obeying the word of God. Honor and decency will then be forthright, becoming, and above all, obvious for all to see.

Scott F.

Scott F. Email this member See this member's profile
Hillbillyland, USA - Tuesday, May 10, 2005, at 23:25:48 (ZULU)


CDC/Dan, how you describe is how I do on bbls that need a little more. Lately with KxP, Schedier and Mike Rock barrels they are clean without Sweets so I dont need to use that.  What I should have said is I use JBs on bbls that Sweets wont take the copper out of in less than a few days.

I use BoreSnakes when in field to get crap out before shot. I dont use to clean unless I have to. Not the best way at all.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 01:42:49 (ZULU)


Joe Mahon: Recently in Denver a high school kid went to a recruiter, trying to find out how desperate they are for volunteers. Kid pretended to have flunked out of HS, no GED, dope fiend, yada, yada, yada.  Recruiters, allegedly, told him how to get a fake GED, etc., and the kid wrote an expose in the paper.  Currently under investigation.  Hate to see that kind of thing.

Cops shooting/being shot: over the weekend, two Denver PDs were ambushed while doing off-duty security. One died at the scene, the other's in critical condition.  Gotta wonder what's this place coming to.

My (former) neighbor is a cop, was involved in a shooting ~3wks ago, busting a meth lab (a thriving local hobby).  Guy was baracaded in his bathroom, and started shooting through the door as the cops crashed in.  My buddy got a slug in the leg, another cop was in serious condition. BG wound up with massive gaping through-hole in his chest.  Heart was still beating.  Go figure.

Hats off to you LE types.  That's one tough job, not knowing if you're gonna see your family everytime you head to work.

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 02:21:24 (ZULU)



Serving drug warrants, getting shot, bleeding all over the place, calling out the Tac team, then having a standoff in that notorious hotbed of vice and violence:  Chubbuck, Idaho.  Or, body armor investment finally pays off.  Click my name.

There are some good guys on that team.  At the range they once gave me thousands of once-fired LC-01 cases.  

I may have come off as being a little over emphatic in my exchange with Moe.  That wasn't meant to sound shrill.  He said to beware of fools and their lawyers.  He was right, of course.  

Mike:  What happens when you run a patch through one of those tubes, then run another patch 15 min later?  No blue?  

This is bugging me.  Why do mine always come out blue?

 

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 02:59:32 (ZULU)


I have thrown away all of my bronze brushes.  I use only nylon now.  A bronze brush is about the same thing as bullet jacket.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 03:41:37 (ZULU)


Dan, that's easy---if they are still blue after all that, try prozac.  heheh.

Duman,

I will not try to excuse unethical behavior of a recruiter.  recruiters are soldiers.  Soldiers are citizens.  And citizens are what makes this country either good or bad, depending.  Stands to reason some bad apples show up.  Ya want a totally ethical army?  Give me a pool of totally ethical people from which to draw.

That said, there is another dynamic at work.  There are many ways a soldier can end up drafted into recruiting...few actually volunteer.  Mostly, some great soldiers get pushed against the wall--and off they go.  A few of these will say the hell with it all and just walk away.  Those who take the challenge are usually above average.  they are used to success in their last job.  They are told NCOs make it happen all their lives.  But selling a life-change is not the same as leading a rifle squad.  This guy is failing for the first time ever in his military career.  The captain--he don't know shit about marketing either---but he knows how to tell someone to do something---and he is used to having that someone just do it.  He overreacts.  Soon, the pressure builds.  NCOs career is directly and unambiguously threatened.  He could---in a moment of weakness, do such things as is alleged in your story.  Some bad apples just default to breaking the rules...others are driven by a chain of command with no idea how to handle this environment.  I saw both types of failures while I was in this crap.  Mostly, I saw leadership failures.  The problem is this is less than 1% of the recruiting force.  But this is when you hear anything about recruiting in the news.  Think about all the silence, years on end, and the "good" that "nothing" represents.  You'd be hard pressed to go out and meet a shithead recruiter---but watch the backlash against all the other guys in this AO.  This dumbass (assuming he is guilty) just made the tough job tougher for the others.  Bad.  The sad part is the other 99% are often viewed in the same light as that 1% by their own chain of command.  The mistrust is unbelievable in this organization.  It is by far the most ate-up, unhealthy command climate I have experienced.  It is a caricature of a horrible place to work.  It is that off-the-chart bad.  Ha-I could write a book just citing examples.  But, the pressure is tremendous on these guys to "alter" perceptions and sell a new way of life to fickle kids who think they are owed something for showing up to life.  The media is working against them.  The parents are working against them.  Senators, clergy and teachers are working against them...yet they go out every damn day of the week and try to do their mission.  Because they too love their nation, and they were asked...

For every damn name of a bad apple you can give me, I will give you 100 names of soldiers who sacrificed their marriage...who who lost leave days at the end of the year...who fell into a bottle trying to do something they weren't equiped for...who worked seven days each and every week because he knew his commander would sell him out to save himself in heartbeat...yet through it all---they keep on going..."acting" happy to be there doing this job.  

It is not just the army out there.  It is all services.  And right now, every damn one of them needs a hand.  My 1SG and i figured out ways to do this thing---and to limit "higher" meddling.  In the end, we had a good run.  As one of the top companies in the nation, in relatively good years all around---the pressure was huge.  I got cussed out by COLs and Generals for things even as I handed them 119% of my mission---because I needed to cover someone else---the pressure is impossible to convey.  If it was like that then...imagine what it is like today---with failure at all levels.  

If I could ask anything of anyone---I'd ask that they just lend a hand somehow to these NCOs out there across america.  Even if it is only stopping in with a box of donuts on your way to work to thank them...

When I read the recruiting reports this week...my imagination and first hand knowledge kicked in and I knew that the shit is hitting the fan for these guys.  I cannot imagine how it could be any worse than it was for me---but I know that this command is capable of making it so...and little else.  

Words cannot express my loathing of that command...or my respect for those NCOs toiling under their BS.  

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 03:48:46 (ZULU)



Joe:  I use mirapex, but I'm as blue as ever.

After a Shooter's and Hoppe's #9 cleaning, a clean patch pushed through 15 min after a Sweet's patch doesn't come out blue in your rifles?

That surprises me.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 05:23:06 (ZULU)


Joe M.  Is the vid of that LA debocle available someplace on-line?  Can't locate it.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 07:45:27 (ZULU)


Dan/CDC and I had a brief email exchange yesterday.

We're all on the same team here!  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 13:39:41 (ZULU)


Duman:  I realize that you did NOT post that story to "show the other side" of what I said earlier.  I know that you "hate stuff" like that...well, I know it now that I re-read your post!  But my other response was driven by the need to defend those guys out there...which got kick started by the misinterpretation of what you meant by that post.  It is all good now.

(basically, I said "they work real hard and need help, then you said, "yeah but look at this guy..." at my first read thru)

CDC:  My patches have a slight green shift in the hue.  On one stick--it will be so colored no matter how much chemical I dump thru.  I think that I have the only copper-coated barrel in the world, and I am not cleaning it so much as eating it away.  I hope so, becuase it has got to go one of these days.  Terrible big green barrel...heheh.

I like that knife plan you have---but everyone I know can buy their own.  You are looking for a good "kid" --and that is a great idea.  

LTChip;  outta luck, I caught the video on (ahem) CNN.  They replayed it forever over two days.  Google the event, and then search within the results for "video".

That search within results thing is key---ya'll are using something like that, right?

Example:  Ford F250 (search).  Super Duty (search in results).  Diesel (search in results).  Banks Power (in results).  It yields far more hits on subject than trying to get it all at once this way.  Much betterer...

Of course, everyone knows that...:))

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 14:15:43 (ZULU)


CAUTION!!!

Gentlemen, I'm pleading with you! DO NOT, EVER, EVER, use SWEETS in conjunction with SHOOTERS CHOICE. BAD chemical reaction that WILL etch the bore. Even if you swab the bore out with something else there will be residue and over time will cause etching. I personally know of this happening. Hoppies#9 and Sweets is okay, but if you want to use Shooter's then use Shooter's Copper remover with it.

This ends our public service announcement. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.  

Scott F. Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 14:54:18 (ZULU)



Joe:  It isn't charity.  That was meant as a small gesture of appreciation, to save a grunt a hundred or so bucks he could spend elsewhere, and to find a good use for a good tool that is otherwise doomed to life in a tool-box.

Nice blade.  I'll never use it.

Scott F:  Are you sure?  The

Shooter's until the black is gone,

dry patch,

carb cleaner, MEK, or their pet solvent until it comes out clean,

dry patch,

Sweet's until the green is gone,

dry patch,

carb cleaner, MEK, or their pet solvent until cleans,

dry patch,

'non-trick' light oil

treatment was all the rage among benchresters about a dozen or so years back.  Bob Pease interviewed a bunch of the guys on the subject.  They all agreed that you don't spare the carb cleaner, make sure you get the chamber, and patch dry before the Sweet's.  The books are still on my shelf.

Since those guys fuss over barrels like grandmas fuss over Thanksgiving dinner, that seemed safe.  

Is there a chemist in the house?

Moe:  If I was overly direct, that was strictly a matter of my ham-handed writing style.  You're one of the good guys.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 14:57:00 (ZULU)


For the reason why I stopped posting links, click my name.  Guys like this are just so much better.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 15:59:04 (ZULU)


CDC,

Don't quote me on this 'cause I'm not chemically inclined, but the butylcelusolve in the Shooter's will react with the ammonia in the Sweets turning into what I believe is a chloride of some sort or "salt" if you prefer and we know how much our beloved barrels love salt. This explanation was given to me some years ago by an organic chemist. Not specific, I know, but it was enough to scare me into never using Shooter's with anything involving ammonia. Then again, I'm the original busted clock... right only twice a day!

Thanks for all you guys do.

Best site on the 'net and always will be!

Scott F.    

Scott F. Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 16:44:42 (ZULU)


Dan:  I've heard about bad chemical reactions--and i never bothered to do a chemical analysis--I just believe it.  therefore, like you and the books--I am careful to remove traces of the last swab before switching compounds.  Unlike Scott, I believe you CAN remove traces of the previous chemical by solvents and time.  Heheh:  MEK removes everything--including your genetic identity.  I have since moved on to denatured alcohol or acetone for this operation....but MEK was tops before i got scared of it.  

Cops, read this:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20050511.shtml

I'd like to add my thanks; and i'd like to add firefighters, EMTs and hospital staffs to the list of good people worthy of our praises.

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 16:48:37 (ZULU)


Hogs - Raffle status -- whoooeee -- my mailbox splitteth open today - keep 'em coming folks... we wanna have this drawing asap.....

JoeMahon - someone pulled a fast one on you - your barrel is made of copper - LOL....

CarbCleaner - careful with that stuff - the carb cleaner that I got hold of years back will literally melt your skin...

Chemistry in general - Bravo!! where are you - these dudes are talking chemistry... get in here and set 'em straight....

take care all

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 17:14:35 (ZULU)


I etched the muzzle of my Kreigher barreled 308 with a combination of Sweets and Shooters.  I forgot to wipe it nose and there was a gouge eaten into the metal.  I had to have the rifle recrowned.

Aah the school of hard knocks!

My .02

Jerry

Jerry Email this member See this member's profile
Baltimore, Maryland, USA - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 17:28:56 (ZULU)


Just a quick post as I am in the middle of painting rooms for the old lady.  And they call this "leave".  Hrumph!!

Will be out of touch for a week starting this Saturday.  Going up to Mass for my wife's family and then down to see my son our grandson.

Seeing all sorts of dire predictions of Sweets and Shooter's Choice.  Been using it for years, our studetns use it and you KNOW they are not careful.  We get 8000 to 10000 rounds out of our barrels before they go south.  Had a McMillian go for over 13000 when it burned out, of all places, during an FBI observer/sniper course in New York.  I have not seen the etching that everyone talks about.  I do know that Sweets attaks nickel just as it attacks copper but it takes alot longer.  The thing that makes stainoless, stainless is nickel and Sweets will turn it colors if you levae it in the barrel for extended periods of time.  Since we scope our barrels before we let the students use them I would think we would have noticed etching from the chemical reaction.  Now we get lovely throat erosion over time as this is a normal reaction to heat and pressure, but not etching.  Just my observations. guys.

JB paste, a good way to show about another 100 rounds through a burned out barrel, while you are waiting for a new barrel.

Hope I don't have to answer right away if I win, since I will be away for a couple of days, so says the eternal optimist.  :)

Zane - You said things are twisted and "maybe it is the media".  My thoughts are that it is mostly the media.  Look at the anchors saying that POTUS pocked Putin in the eye and slapped him in the face.  Look at commercials that glorify stealng and cheating.  :Look at the comedy shows that show the male as a bumbling idiot to be ignored and scorned.  No my contempt for hte media now days is beyond the pale.  Then they wonder why they have a creditibilty problem.

Well back to the second coat of paint for the spare room.  Cripes I hate painting, Yes honey..... coming.  :)

Hold hard guys.

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 19:02:54 (ZULU)


Joe Mahon,

Your post was right on target. Maybe I shouldn't have posted what happened here in Denver, I realize it represents only a small fraction of the overall good work that's going on out there.  

CDC,

I've tried a foam copper remover, that was recommended by Pete.  It's a product, called Forrest Foam, and is available in the states under the name 'Knock Out'.  Check here:

http://www.cleangun.com/

I've used it a few times now, and seems to really work.  One of my rifles I could never get a clean patch out, it would always be blue or green.  With this, a couple of treatments and the rifle is pristine.  It's expensive, but based on my experience, should last awhile.  The foam fills the barrel before you can get your finger off the button.

Gents, I've seen the Nylon brushes, but are they any good?  What's your experience?  How long do they last?

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 19:31:54 (ZULU)


Ken, I'm here! HA!

Just got caught up, my magic box has been playing tricks on me. All tricks, no treats. I'm convinced Norton is owned by the closet sadist little billie gates.

Lookie-lookie what we've got here!

OK, since I'm ignorant of this topic specifically, will someone please give me the ingredients of Sweets and Shooters?

Cellusolve will react interestingly with a caustic environment. Learned that the hard way....... ammonia is caustic. Not sure what gasses it was giving off. I have no idea what it'll do to steel at this point, but I know what it did to glass.

MEK, Patron Joe, water, and other stuff: acetone and alcohol aren't really "good" items for this purpose. It's literally impossible to have alcohol open to the air without having water in the alcohol. If you get (or make) 100% alcohol, it instantly becomes watered down in contact with air. When I make it, it's in a nitrogen atmosphere..... anything else will allow it to pull water from the air, and it does so vigorously. You'll know it when it does though (GRIN), lots of smoking going on there LOL! Everclear isn't 100% alcohol either, which would be 200 proof. Check out the label. Acetone is slightly better, but still not good. Even the "anhydrous" (i.e. expensive) acetone has water in it to some degree. When it's in the barrel, it's gonna be a simple distillation. You're going to have all the alcohol or acetone evaporate off, leaving all the water, which will then evaporate off at a slower rate. I prefer to have no water in my barrels.

What you guys need is an organic solvent. Organics tend to stratify from anything aqueous, so you'll set up "layers", like oil and water. What's a good organic solvent? Well, personally I use carb cleaner HA! Look out though, and try not to get it on your hands that much. Some of them still use dichloromethane (also called methylene chloride), and that's a "bad actor" if you breath it, or if you get it on your skin 'cause it'll go THROUGH your skin. Like MEK on steroids.

Anyway, youse guys get me some ingredients, I'll see what I can't figure out. Personally, I don't use either one of those. Mostly because I don't want anything in my gas ports that I don't know about......

I use Hoppes#9 bench rest for 99.9% of everything. Slightly higher ammonia content than regular Hoppes, but nothing that'll hurt steel. That works really well for me, for roughly 500 rounds. Then I break out the (Ack! Gasp!) JB's.

For metal preservation, I go with the recommendation of a fellow experimentor. He proved that the best corrosion resistance (commonly available) was given by eezox (SP?), with a close second of CLP. Since CLP is locally available, that's what I use, but NOT IN THE BORE. Hoppes is left there......

Being the last one to correct anyone, please don't take anything I say as such...... I would like to relate though that there is more to polishing a surface than relative hardnesses of the two surfaces. Friction is directly related to the pressure of contact. I don't push the JB's patch that hard radially (into the bore), it's held there on a spring (brush) under that tension. The idea is that if I have little pressure on the patch, then it should be abrasive to extremely soft things, like copper and fouling, but not pushed hard enough that it's taking off or polishing steel. Still, I see no need in doing such until needed, as the JB's does turn black when exposed to chromium or steel. Yeah, I use it on my chromed barrels too.....

As was previously mentioned, I don't purchase bronze bore brushes in general. All my standard brushes (5.56 and 7.62 NATO) are aluminum twists and nylon bristles.

And lastly, as far as the color of things go: copper is very brilliant in color. If you take copper and dissolve it, then complex it (which is essentially what cleaners do), you'll notice that you get a very noticable brilliant blue at significantly less than 200 parts per million. Dunk a white cotton patch in that 200 PPM solution, you get something VERY blue, when there's little real copper on it. I haven't purposefully taken the concentration down lower with regards to seeing just how little I could see and what I couldn't, but my estimation would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 PPM visible on a cotton patch. Micrograms, micrograms.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 19:42:59 (ZULU)


Cops surrounding subject(s) & pointing guns= poor training.  Seen it all too often.  Matter of fact, while working plainclothes back in the last century, had several cases where the patrol cars showed up in response to "guys with guns" calls.  The patrol guys were obviously conditioned by nothing happening for X calls (or watched WAY too many movies) and did incredibly stupid stuff.  These usually happened when higher authority kept us from notifying the involved districts "to maintain operational security".

Sinclairs TM bore cleaner seems to be great stuff.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 19:52:09 (ZULU)


Bravo,

Do you actually work for a living, or just hang out there to do experiments related to your hobby?  LOL!  ;8-p

BTW, do you have a gas chromatograph?  You might be able to deduce the components and relative mix of these chemicals.

Give Bubba my best!

Duman

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 20:02:10 (ZULU)



Eldest daughte Erin lets me know she's OTW from the sandbox a day earlier.  I'm kinda at a loss what to do when she gets here....I've wet down a few buddies, and had one or two myself when reentering CONUS, but how do you treat it when it's yer baby girl?  Hmmmmm....I guess we'll know after a few rounds of cold ones.....

Bobby....practice up with that carbine, I'm building another one, and we'll shoot it out when we get the chance.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 20:25:23 (ZULU)


All right folks?  

So theres another JB debate going down on SC?  All right then 'lito, here's my .02...

We have most bore cleaners known to man on the shelf, and JB's isn't one of them.  Most of us shoot at Border, and none of us use JB's..We get barrels about as cheap as you can get, free, and still we don't use JB's..that should be enuff said, but...

What gets me is the gunplumbers who are trying to sell you bore guides to protect the throat from the dreaded dirty cleaning rod, are often the ones promoting pushing gritty patches or boolits up the cakehole anytime you get copper fouling.

I'll give you an example of JB's not harming steel..A guy had phoned about barrel life on a 22-250, as he wondered why his new barrel had shot out in about a year(wasn't one of ours)..Well, he cleans with JB's or remclean(one of the two)far too regularly, for 16" from the chamber there was almost no rifling..He had heard the paste does nothing to steel as well..That is admittedly an extreme case, but it does make the point that abrasives shift steel.

Patching with JB's is not like 'lapping slowly'..It's uncontrolled pushing sand up and down the barrel with the user hoping a flannel patch knows where the high and low spots are in the bore, where the fouling ends and the steel begins, and it really doesn't differentiate between the two anyway.  Patches are designed to wipe stuff out, not lap or polish..

Lapping is a whole new ball game, bore specific cast and concentric, much more controlled.  you can feel every bump, valley, dimensional changes, you can even feel the lettering stamped on the side of the barrels with a good handlap..

What I would like to see is VFG felt plugs used rather than flannel patches when you want a good scrub..They are caliber specific, round, and will fill most of the gap..I would like to see them cut a bit longer, about 3" or so.  One of these days I'll get around to giving them a proper test, maybe get an article written up...

The quotes for JB...Jack is savvy enough, he probably sends his customers JB's with the barrel, for repeat custom..ha..The highpower shooter that use JBs are often hit with the dreaded carbon ring at the throat, and aren't bothered whether the rifle is going to last thru the next two matches, but has to make it thru this one, JB's is the quickest way to munch thru..I had a 'National Champion' who sells lapping bullets boast to me he hasn't bought a barrel since 1985.  So? Peter Jackson from Jackson Rifles just up the road is just too lazy to install an extraction fan, ha(no he's a good bloke really, would lie down in traffic for the guy), and he's not that bothered if the barrel lasts less than a season, just as long as it shoots...Match shooters are a fickle bunch really..

Ask Hart what they think about JB...We don't have a warranty for barrels shooting here as such, waste of paper really, but if a guy phones I do ask his cleaning regimen..If he mentions JB's I try to advise him on a better solution to his cleaning problem..

'Yote,

The fouling of smooth cut or rough cut rifles depends on which direction the roughness is of the bore...And yes, often buildup in the throat will be the culprit, though not as much for grouping shortrange as the condition of the last 4" of rifling and crown..moreso longrange when your velocities start shifting about.  If the roughness is perpendicular to the bore, like railroad tracks, that's bad juju, as that is where the fouling will collect..If the roughness is in the grooves, but following the twist, not as bad, unless there is a sharp inclusion or pitting...If the roughness is not too deep, they actually act like mini lands.  But it's funny what one guy calls smooth to what I call smooth..Just for example, had a customer in with shiny LW barrel on his RPA, asked me what I thought of it..He thought it was the bees knees in the bore condition dept, and I hated to look, but wanted my honest opinion..Then I said do you see the rippling?  no..have another look, direct it to the light, when you look up the barrel you will see concentric rings all the way up(which weren't, as the barrel was bent, but that wasn't a biggie), now tilt the barrel just a bit out of the light, do you see the surface condition now, rippled in bore and groove?  It took a few gos, but eventually he did see what I saw...Never thought to look at it that way I guess.

But you are right, when you get a rifle in, premier barrel or not, shoot it..clean it...shoot it..look at the groups, not at the fouling...Don't necessarily head straight for the abrasives, use with caution and last resort..Abrasives are the most aggressive form of cleaning out there..so be careful.

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Dumfies and Galloway, Scotland, UK - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 21:31:28 (ZULU)


FWIW, it's chromium that makes stainless steel stainless, not nickel.  Nickel is good for other things.  And also FWIW, the Schneider barrels on our M40A3's sure as Hell don't seem to be stainless, certainly not the 416 I'm familiar with.

Charles, she coming home end of tour, or for the R&R?  Seemed a really fast tour if the first case.  Everything's OK, right?  Only folks normally coming home early were WIA.

Carb cleaner is carbon disulphide IIRC. Nasty stuff.  All the stuff we're talking about to clean guns is some pretty unhealthy shiite!  Acetone, MEK, carbon dissulphide, methylene chloride? I just use BR#9 and Sweets when it's really coppered and it shoots fine.  And I'm not growing a third eye, yet.  I have no problems with folks trying new things, but some of this stuff seems to be more trouble than it's worth.  I guess it's just that I don't see any real improvement as being needed from what I'm doing now.  

Anyone try the 175gn 7mm SMK's yet?  If so, do you have quantifiable info comparative to 168 and 180gn Berger's or JLK's or 162 A-max's?  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 21:50:06 (ZULU)



CDC,

emailed you via roster, re: your knife. The Marine in this article may be a good candidate.

http://www.jamestownsun.com/Main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=91&ArticleID=28256

Rob Opp

Robert Opp Email this member See this member's profile
Jamestown, ND, USA - Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 21:54:11 (ZULU)


JR; thanks for shedding some light on one of the greater mysteries I've encountered and that's trying to look up a rifle bore and figure out something about it's condition. I've seen all those little funny irregularities and dismissed them as quick as I noticed them refusing to admit to my self I didn't have a clue what they were.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 22:41:18 (ZULU)


Ken, there’s a slew of things that make the difference in stainless steel. And there’s slews of different formulations of stainless steel as well. I’m no metallurgist, but I’ve got one down the hall (GRIN), which comes in really handy. I’m not even addressing the crystalline phases of steel yet….

I just did a rough approximation (sloppy calculation) of what kind of steel removal I’d estimate from a patch of JBs. Taking a typical 7.62 NATO barrel at 22” length, and doing some really sloppy math, we come up with an area of 1.63908 cubic inches of surface area. Using my estimate of 20 micrograms on a patch, that means that we’d rub off 0.000000000006728 inches off the radius per patch, for the length of the bore, making the unfair assumption that the metal is coming off the bore evenly for the entire length.

Since I’m not positive how close my estimation is, I feel the need to do some experimentation. Since I just happen to have a pitted barrel to “abuse”, I’ll have some results here within a few days, I would imagine. I’m just going to do a good approximation though, nothing worthy of publication LOL! It’s nice having an ICAP in house sometimes….

So does this mean that I don’t agree with JR? Heavens no. Far too much respect to go there. I’m just saying that if I clean 10 or 20 times with JBs over the lifetime of the barrel, I question if I’m hurting anything significantly. At no time did I ever advocate cleaning regularly with JBs. For all I know, my massively throat-eroded 6.5 may have been due to using JBs too much.

And Duman, yeah, things get interesting. Sometimes I wish I had a real job somewhere. It appears my permanent transfer to The Republic just got trashed today as well, a moderate setback. I’ve got a GC in house, but after years of playing “chase that peak”, I stepped up. Mass spectrometers are THE answer, not quite as sensitive, but you get 100% material ID, with a good analyst (ahem!). Actually, it’s the GC/MS that I made my name with years ago……

If any of youse guys need a chemist with some moderately hefty creds, please let me know. I’ve gotta get outta this state ASAP. No New England states, no PRK, and a strong preference for south of the Mason – Dixon line, and at least 60 miles from any metropolitan centers.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 11, 2005, at 23:03:34 (ZULU)


Bravo - your criteria are like mine cept I'll put the Western states of ID, CO, WY, MT, AZ, NV, TX, OK, and NM on the list too.  Any one need a VP of IT/ shooting buddy?  If CA bans ammo, I'll move without a job waiting.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 00:26:24 (ZULU)


Army training to address NDs...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-09-shootings_x.htm?csp=24&RM_Exclude=Juno

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 00:30:56 (ZULU)


Bravo:

If you need more experimental materials for testing, I can send you a stainless Ruger .308W take-off barrel :-)  (I had it replaced with a MacLennan, groups *much* better now).

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 00:41:13 (ZULU)


Well Bravo, you best go ask him what's in 416R stainless, because near as I can tell, there ain't no nickel, except perhaps trace levels.  But there is lots of chrome, which is GENERALLY what you'll look at when you're determining if it's a stainless alloy.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/stainless/cru416rs.html

Low sulfur 416R is generally what you use for SS barrels, sometimes you'll see 410, and guys sometimes go exotic(17-4 or whatever) when they feel a bit of self loathing or something.  Where's JR, he'll add immensely to this discussion.  S/F....Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 00:58:14 (ZULU)



LTChip:  If you go through the archives about two years ago---you'll find a post where I solved that problem for the Army.  I had allies--lots of them...oddly, mostly NCOs at first....

Anyway, I "bitched"--a whole bunch--- and discovered lots of people bitching the same chorus.  I guess we all got loud enough to be heard.  Familiarity through "handling" is a good start for weapons training...now if we can all get them to shit more bullets to go with it:))

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 01:42:17 (ZULU)



The knife is going out tomorrow.  The offer was deleted from the roster.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 02:37:52 (ZULU)


Well gents looks like sister in law is heading back to crack smoking hubby. You can't help what does not wish to be helped. Looks like I will end up with a cheap antique gun. i did find clips for it. If you are looking for out dated clips there is a fellow that has just about anything you will need. His name is Dave Mcwhorter email is clipgrip@aol.com.

I did find out the Llama is a 9mm luger. I also worked on the 38 super clip that was in the pistol. Shaved a bit on the bullet rest. At least it will eject now. It also seems to feed ok as well. Have not fired it yet. When I do I will take it 1 round at a time. Does not look to be a super safe fire arm. It is going to be collection only. At least it is clean now.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 03:13:00 (ZULU)


Hogs - raffle status -- we have 353 of 529 tickets paid for.. Thanks to all that have paid.... We still need that 176 remaining paid for... so get 'em in get 'em in get 'em in... let's boogie -- we got a drawing to do :))

take care all

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 04:06:05 (ZULU)


John Farnam, one of the more thoughtful folks around, and also one who has been telling the Army and Marines that they ought to be training on hot ranges for a long time, has a nice post up about the conditions ARs ought to be carried in for LE folks. There is also in that post some comments about the current state of Marine pistol training, i.e., it sucks. Click on my name for the link, which is the same one as just below.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/07May05.html

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 04:20:42 (ZULU)


Re: Farnam comments.  It amazes me how guys that aint BTDT's can be so critical...anyway....

The USMC uses the "Cooper" condition codes already.  I dont agree with having the safety off in condition 3 unless it keeps the action from being cycled to load such as with the 590 and 870 shotguns.  My thought process is that we teach the dudes to keep the weapon on safe until ready to fire and that contradicts that rule. If I am walking around a rear area and folks are carrying weapons i woul like to know that they are on safe whether the thing has a round chambered or not.  If contact is imanent (sp) then a round should be chambered anyway.

Now on the comments about Mairine "requal".  The problem here is semmantics.  All the USMC requal course of fire is simply that, a course of fire fired to certify the USMC directives on arming of Marines with a said weapon.  It has nothing to do with "training".  When you are running large amouns of Marines across a course of fire in a day you need to have a "cold" range since, face it, a lot of the Marines shooting probably dont get a lot of training on the pistols and you have people milling around behind the line etc.  Its simply a control issue.  Marines who are attached to MEUSOC or more high speed units run hot ranges but as far as standard requal goes there will be more control.  

I've been involved in every facet of USMC small arms training, from training recruits to annual requal to Force Recon hostage rescue type action and I'll tell you that for the most part the Marines do it right...most of the time...when they can....on tuesday....and the moon is in the second quarter...BUT most of the time anyway....

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 05:02:37 (ZULU)



"When you are running large amouns of Marines across a course of fire in a day you need to have a "cold" range since, face it, a lot of the Marines shooting probably dont get a lot of training on the pistols and you have people milling around behind the line etc."

It would be foolish to argue against a point made by someone with Gooch's credentials, but, if they can't be trusted on a hot range, are they ready to use these weapons in real time?

Cooper ran nothing but hot ranges.  They made him feel safe and secure.  He used to invite his basic pistol, shotgun, rifle, carbine, what-have-you students into his den/basement/bunker on the afternoon of day 5 1/2 of training.  Everybody carried guns.  The guns were hot.  Everybody handled guns.  Lots of guns.

LE, Mil, motivated civilians, Walter Mitty, and your maid aunt Sally.  Four rules.  Basic manipulation skills.  Muzzles everywhere.  No problems.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 05:43:09 (ZULU)


Hey guys...

I'm looking for something that was kickin' areund the internet a few years ago, and now I can't find it.

I think it was written by a priest, about Nazi Germany.

It went something like:

When they came for the Jews, I didn't speak out for them

When they came for the Poles, I didn't speak out for them

(a few more lines like the above)

And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

Does that ring any bells with you guys - does anyone have the full orginal in a file somewhere??

Thanks...

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 08:31:23 (ZULU)


Gooch:

re: John Farnum.  Seems like a BTDT guy

Check out:  http://www.defense-training.com/johnres.html

(extract)

After graduating from Cornell college with a BA in Biology, I entered the US Marine Corps Officer Candidate Program. After being commissioned a Second Lieutenant, I was sent to Vietnam as an infantry platoon leader. For the next fifty-one days, I was involved in heavy fighting and was awarded three Purple Hearts. I served the remainder of my active duty time in the United States, training Marines. I remained in the Reserves and went on active duty several times per year until I retired in 1987. My branch is still infantry, and my rank at retirement was major.

(more follows)

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 08:32:00 (ZULU)


re: Quote

"First they came for..."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERniemoller.htm

The quotation is quite famous, but apparently is often mis-quoted.

(see above analysis).  I checked SNOPES, could not find their review.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Niemoller_quote.html

Martin Niemoeller

The Failure to Speak Up Against the Nazis

----------------------------------------------------------------

This quotation is often cited incorrectly. The exact phrasing was supplied by Sibylle Sarah Niemoeller von Sell, Martin Niemoeller's wife. The remark was made in reply to a student's question, "How could it happen?"

----------------------------------------------------------------

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

—Martin Niemoeller

 

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 08:49:36 (ZULU)



rod....

Thanks Mang - that's the one!!!

-

On John Farnam - I know the dude, and he's a great instructor, and a stand up guy - he runs all of his courses HOT, you show up with an unloaded weapon, and your dead meat.

He doesn't sit back and order you around - if you gotta crawl in the mud, he'll be the first one in the mud, showing you how it's done.

First rate!!

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 10:14:16 (ZULU)


I've not met John Farnam, but I have read his books. His training doctrine and personal defense doctrine are first-rate. His students, for instance, are required to draw their handguns while moving, and also to move while reloading or clearing malfunctions. And, as already noted, he has seen the elephant.

From time to time, he posts notes, like the one I linked previously, on his web site. Besides his own thoughts, he also includes notes from his students, lots of whom are active LE and military, about what works and doesn't work in the field. They are well worth reading, and there are several years of them archived on his site. I have that site bookmarked, and visit it periodically to see what he and his students have been up to.

Here's the link to the index for those:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

Or click on my name.

If Marines and soldiers cannot be expected to learn to safely carry hot weapons when not being shot at, how the hell can we expect them to do so under the stress of combat?

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 12:18:15 (ZULU)


Okay...I had Farnam confused with someone else....

I stick to my comments about requal ranges......I am talking reality here.  Your basic Marine requal range aint got anything to do with training...it is an admin function...a check in the box for people that by thier job description have to carry a personal weapon. Many units actually "train".  The Force Recon units that I had trained ALL trained on "hot" ranges.  The 2nd Lt fiber optics technition from base maintnance just needs the box checked so he can get promoted.  Thats my point.....

I been to most of the shooting schools out there.  ROgers, Shaw, Chapman, etc and even taught at a few.  Its good that some care but some of them just stir crap to stir up business...  I read an article on military rifle training by Massad Ayoob once that was absolute BS.  He had no concept of the concept of how to train large numbers of people how to fire a service rifle...Remember I am talking about 250 Marines needing to be "qualified" on the rifle in 4 days.  Yeah..it does turn into a machine...do the Marines get the best training..nope.  But it gets the "qual" done.  Now when they go back to thier units its thier NCO's job to "train" them.  Again...dont confuse "qualification" with "training".  Two different animals..

Out

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 12:57:48 (ZULU)



Got this in an email checked on Snopes and found no reference to it. If this is real it just proves how stupid some people are.

Subject: Re: 2005 Darwin Award Nominee

 

The following mind-boggling attempt at a crime spree in Washington appeared to be the robber's first (and last), due to his lack of a previous record of violence, and his terminally stupid choices:

1. His target was H&J Leather &Firearms. A gun shop specializing in handguns.

2. The shop was full of customers - firearms customers.

3. To enter the shop, the robber had to step around a marked police patrol car parked at the front door.

4. A uniformed officer was standing at the counter, having coffee before work. Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a hold-up, and fired a few wild shots from a .22 target pistol. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire; the police officer with a 9mm Glock 17, the clerk with a .50 Desert Eagle, assisted by several customers who also drew their guns and fired. The robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics.

Crime scene investigators located 47 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds (48.9% target acquisition). Ballistics identified rounds from 7 different weapons. No one else was hurt in the exchange of fire.

Here we are at the beginning of March and we already may have the 2005 winner of the Darwin Award. This guy is going to be hard to beat.

JLU  

Joe Udelhofen Email this member See this member's profile
Oconomowoc, WI, USA - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 13:26:49 (ZULU)


Joe:

Can't guarantee that the story is true, but I know ehere it comes from:  June 2005 Soldier of Fortune Magazine.  You can find it on the Bulletin Board, page 12.

Somehow I don't have any trouble believing it though...

RC

RC Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 14:09:16 (ZULU)


Joe U. Suicide by Gun Shop now thats different !

Mixing Gun Cleaning Chemicals! Sorta like Cleaning the Bowl with Vanish and adding a bit of Clorox for the FINAL FINISH. LOL

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, Us of Ah - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 14:50:28 (ZULU)


When I was in school at the University of Texas at Austin some years ago (ain't saying), there was a similar incident at a gun store on North Lamar. The store is, I think, Mustang Arms or something like that - the store was still there last fall when we moved eldest daughter up there to begin her freshman year.

A moron decided to rob the store, and walked right past a marked Austin Police Department cruiser parked at the front door. He was similarly DRT (Dead Right There). So, even if the story posted in SOF isn't true, there are indeed people stupid enough (or drugged up enough - same same) to do that.

Life is hard, but it's harder - and often shorter - if you're stupid.

I just hope perps like that get whacked before reproducing. "Tweet - Gene Pool Lifeguard! You - outta the pool!"

Lindy Email this member See this member's profile
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 14:55:07 (ZULU)


That story reminds me. I had dropped off my wife at Amarillo AP and was heading home and decided to stop by the gun shop. The owner was an ex officer and mainly supplied the local cops etc. It was a one way street right and there was essentially no parking except in a small lot to the side. My wife's .357 model 19 was in the car since she couldn't take it on the plane. When I parked and started around the corner from the lot to the front door of the shop that faced the street there was a pickup truck full of scum bags parked with one wheel up on the sidewalk and the driver side door open. I saw the butt of a shot gun between the chick's legs sitting in the middle of the cab. Engine running and chick looking up and down the street. I immediately turned as if I had forgotten something and went back to the car and retrieved the 19 and stuck it in my coat pocket. Entering the store there were some other customers and the scum bag standing with his hand in his pocket near the cash register. I caught his eye with my hand in my pocket on the 19. He looked a little more nervous and I thought he was about to draw down on the owner who was waiting on another customer. Behind me was a stack of 8lb kegs of pistol powder. I caught his eye and With my weak hand I pointed behind me with my thumb at the powder. About that time the owner asked the guy if he could help him. He quickly pulls out a .380 from his pants already in his hand and dumps the loaded clip on the counter and asks the guy what he would do on a trade for the PPK.  The phone rings about that time and the owner answers a wall phone and then starts nervously looking around. (cops in the parking lot at the civic center had spotted the truck and were calling to warn him about the suspicious truck.) Now the nervous owner and me and the perp stared each other down as he thanked the owner and said he'd be back later....They got a block before the cops pulled them over. He'd done the same thing in another shop and backed off when a policeman had entered the store. I wondered what would have happened if the powder hadn't been there. I doubt the .380 would have set it off but the perp probably didn't know that. When the guy left the owner had to sit down and sweat a few minutes. I never told him about the 19 I had in my pocket or the powder incident.

Actually if was illegal for me to conceal the 19.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 15:02:16 (ZULU)



My guess on why there is not more weapons "training" versus check the box qualification is that there is a zero tolerance attitude in the Army.  Any incident, God forbid, resulting an injury or death where a soldier was carrying a hot weapon in a non-sterile environment would (at least when I was on active duty 12 years ago) result in every officer in the COC being reprimanded and/or relieved.  I was in the 3/187th (not exactly a pogue unit) and live fires that combined patrolling and maneuver were shockingly rare, never mind carrying live ammo around the TO or in the rear.  

If we want to have weapons trained troops then we need to be willing to accept that some incidents will occur in training.  This risk is well worth it as it will save, as the Iraq stats are showing, many more lives in actual combat AOs.

I was privileged enough to serve with CSM Donald Purdy on his last active duty assignment.  I recall one day while serving as duty officer, the Sergeant Major cornering me one day to impart(young idiot LT) upon me some of his wisdom.  He told me about his idea that all soldiers in the unit would be armed with their assigned weapon at all times.  They would carry hot weapons everywhere, especially around the BN area.  He wanted morning PT runs and road marches to include live fire marksmanship tests along the way with pop up targets simulating ambushes so that the soldiers would get used to engaging targets in unexpected places while being winded/heart rate up etc.  He also wanted to shoot every soldier in the leg with a 22LR pistol and then have them go through an obstacle course and then qualify.  He had a bunch more ideas along these lines.

I thought that if we implemented 1/2 of his ideas, the unit would be immensely more well prepared to go to war.   CSM Purdy probably influenced me more than any other one person during my time with the Rakkasans.  I was honored to be put in charge of running his retirement ceremony and parade.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 15:14:25 (ZULU)



Yeah, qualifying troops on a hot range would make about as much sense as a holding a hot trap shoot. Bunch of old duffers with Perazzis ready to party.  

Pretty amusing scenario, actually.

LtChip:  "If we want to have weapons trained troops then we need to be willing to accept that some incidents will occur in training."

I don't see it.  Pound the four rules into them from the first minute of reception station.  Any infraction means you dig a foxhole in the middle of the night or some such.  If the weapon was unloaded at the time of the infraction, see rule 1.

Anybody who was in a combat unit has very true stories like this one:  

Long, long ago, a bunch of us went on a live fire exercise.  We walked a path that snaked through the deep, dark woods.  The guy behind me used a sling that helped him keep his 16 in what he considered a ready direction:  FORWARD.  Noise discipline being what it is, I was unable to dissuade him from this practice.

He was in no way unusual.  

Fix training, THEN go hot.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 15:28:05 (ZULU)



Gooch:  You are right, qualification is the test (pass/fail) and NOT the training.  That is the basic bottom line.  Now you and I are in a serious minority with a radical viewpoint.  Why?  That answer goes straight back to money and misguided and/ or political decisions.  Buy a new attack sub, cut some bullets...

So the rifle range gets limited to once a year for most, twice a year for some.  That just changed too---now it is twice per for all.  Each range can be completed with as few as 80 rounds per troop (20 to zero, 40 for the pop-up scoring, and 20 for NBC--note, 20 rounds for night fire 'familiarizaion' may or may not be needed to sign off on the event).  So your average grunt might see a mere 160 rounds per year.  pathetic.  But to get more for "other" uses used to be like pulling teeth.  It can be done, I did it many times---but the friction scares off other leaders because "you screwed your buddy by getting more for yourself..."  Now, my point is, why limit it?  But I also did this in August---when "extra ammo" was being fretted over, too.  The prevailing thought was that by gaining more range time for my troops---I was somehow not being fair.  How that mentality came to be explains how bad things got for such a basic necessity!

And, even in a constrained environment---does this mean your weapons training is thus constrained?  I say Hell No!  Put a weapon in the hands of a troops for Sergeants time training every wednesday and force everyone to carry it properly---and force junior leaders to start looking at safety issues.  be imaginative.  take the time to plan a company FTX---why wait for battalion or brigade?  Money?  hell--if you insist---you get funded.  How often do we see the September waste-run on budget remnants every damned year?  UFRs (pronounced you-fers)get funded for every dream-widget under the sun at the end of every year.  Why didn't we use that money to train soldiers again?  I forget....oh, yeah: laziness.  Anyway, make a soldier learn to live with his rifle (not just the grunts)---make the NCO "see" safeties, and muzzle awareness of their troops BEFORE you place rounds in chambers---and make it a habitual aspect of daily soldiering as far as imagination and standards' enforcement allows.  That is the first and best step in limiting the ND explosion we've experienced up to now.  

I will say this:  Published reports for whatever reason understate the problem with NDs and casualties resulting; big-time.

Well, in every AAR, with CALL (Center for Army lessons leanred), through my units, through my NCOs, in front of G.O.s, through my network of old-boys---I (and so many others) offered our solutions to this problem.  It is plainly obvious that these kids are not comfortable handling charged firearms---and that leaders at all levels aren't comfortable letting them....and it is equally obvious how to solve that.  And the answer IS NOT to disarm soldiers in Iraq---as has happend (I kid you not). I am far from the only guy squawking about this---and I have no idea if I made any impact at all.  But I tried to make this point for two years now, and somehow---the senior leaders have seen the light.  

I am very pleased about this awakening.

Now, to try and fix some more issues before I go:

...more boolits to go with the extra handling of weapons; reflex ranges and scenarios...the 'hot" range concept for all troops.

Have leaders go and see rather than being briefed in their offices.  Get off the chair and see for yourself "what is happening under ya."  No doubt a lttile more of that and Abu G wouldn't have happened!

And the hardets one of all:  Quit being so egotistical that it becomes personal when something goes wrong--and just fix the damned wrong and be done with it...(no idea how to begin fixing this one, other than setting the example and hoping to reach onesies and twosies)

heheh.  I'll either reach a few--or get drummed out for rocking too many boats; but it is pretty much the last of my "to do" list anyway.

Leave it better than I found it...

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 16:48:31 (ZULU)


Gun Shop shooting: Its an old legend, with some truth in it.  

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_gun_shop_shootout.htm

P. M. Hayden Email this member See this member's profile
USA - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 17:43:52 (ZULU)


Chemicals - Anybody (BRAVO) have any hard data on some of the newer copper cleaning chemicals on the scene. I have heard of various amines being used and am concerned about the corrosivness of these compounds on aluminum (not steel).  Think AR receivers and other parts, not necessarily barrels.  Any comments or concerns ?      

Mark J. Bareta Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 17:57:22 (ZULU)


CDC I don't disagree with anything you say about the 4 rules or the rigor which they should be instilled.  Fact is, law of averages says that more live rounds in more hands means more incidents.  I just note that the zero tolerance policies where officers (who decide how much and what kind of training) are effectively ruined by any incident involving any gunpowder understandably causes less and more sterile training to be favored.  Even if the troops are trained on the four rules, they never get the opportunity to get comfortable with live rounds.  Operating with live rounds on a daily basis instead of a quarterly one is a whole different ball game.  I know this from personal experience in that my awareness, competence and comfort with live weapons has increased dramatically since leaving the Army and being a CCW holder.  This phobia of live rounds and live fire and weapons training in general struck me as strange in the 101st as well as when I was at West Point.  We had M-14s for drill and never fired them.  We got to fire weapons a couple times a year at best.  It just seems that the profession of arms has a lack of focus on the arms part.  It is good that this is changing due to our present combat situations but it should not have been that way to start with.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 18:02:24 (ZULU)


Mark, not me. I don't experiment with cleaning solutions much. I use what works for me, and haven't seen a need to until just now.

Hot ranges: just makes sense. With the conditions listed previously of course.....

Farnam: I know a total of three people that have attended his classes. All rave. From what I've gathered, he's the Clint Smith of the Eastern seaboard. One day......

Ken: sorry if I poked you in the eye there. What I was intending to illustrate was that there's quite a continuum between steels, and the line at which a formulation turns from "carbon steel" to "stainless steel" isn't clearly demarked. Shades of grey. Is there nickel (beyond trace) in 416R? No. Is there significant nickel in some other 400 series "stainless" alloys? Yup. Likewise, is there significant chromium in some "carbon steel" alloys? Yup, but not all of them. Now as for what alloy is best for a given purpose, I'll leave that to the artisans in those respective trades. I'm no materials en-gun-ear LOL! As for carbon disulfide, I tend to try and stay away from anything labelled "MAY BE FATAL IF INHALED, ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN OR SWALLOWED." HA!

Rod, thanks for the offer, but I think I got that one covered. Got plenty of barrels that can stand a good scrubbing, and a few that are in serious need of rebarrel so it won't matter.

LTChip, your listed states are my "ideal", with the addition of Alaska, if I could find a job there. I notice you didn't list Ut. Smart.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 18:59:32 (ZULU)


LTChip:  All of that sounds reasonable.  I was saying that, with the proper training in applying a very few simple rules, there is no reason for soldiers to fear their own guns (!).  That is a scandal.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 19:01:25 (ZULU)


I once met a retired Army major (?) who had done some weapons training during his career.  He indicated that many recruits had never handled a weapon in their life, before getting into the Army.  He told me he started his training with safety, then "... and the bullet comes out this end ...... ".

Could this be part of the problem?

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 19:14:57 (ZULU)


Excellent point there.  The denegration of firearms in our society has resulted in a much lower general firearms competency level for our youth.  This is no doubt a contributing factor however, there is a duty for the military to adjust to this.  

This also relates to the resistance that parents have to teaching their kids the 4 rules and school boards who reject programs like Eddie Eagle (one of the NRA's last remaining redeeming programs).

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Thursday, May 12, 2005, at 19:34:51 (ZULU)


I dont know if it is that recruits have never handled weapons or not.  More like its the trainers that have forgotten how to train.  I would rather have someone who has no experience and will listen rather than to have to reteach, beat bad habits, defeat marksmanship voodoo techniques etc.  Some of the easiest to train recruits I ever worked with were 18 yearold females at PISC.  Dont get me started on the Army Marksmanship program....jeeze...talk about forgetting how to teach marksmanship...

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 00:00:50 (ZULU)


Instructor:  Take your finger off the trigger.

Student:  I've been shooting 40 years.  

Instructor:  That's good.  Get your finger off the trigger.

Student:  When I was a security guard at a hospital, I had to shoot a man.  Have you ever shot a man?

Instructor:  No.  You have to take your finger off the trigger.

Student:  Do you want me to tell you about it?

Instructor:  During the break.  Right now you can't touch the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Student:  Son, this is the way I have always done it.

Instructor:  During this training you can not keep your finger on the trigger.

Student:  Boy, ...

(This continues - with precious few interruptions - ALL G******** MORNING.)

A couple of months ago I gave one of my nephews some instruction.  He had never done this before.  He listened carefully, asked intelligent questions, and picked it right up.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 00:38:17 (ZULU)


Ok gents I am going to wade in on this a bit. It think it is pretty important to have some firearm knowledge before going into the military if you are going to be fighting. There is no doubt that the experience that my 2 uncles and my father had growing up helped them make it through WWII. Growing up hungry and having to make every shot count with limited ammo did help. That equaled food. That plus luck and the grace of God pulled them through the war. Uncle Sam and killing a hell of a lot of people did the rest. They beat markmanship in my head. A box of 22 shells and turtle heads un a pond. I had better not miss either. Drummed into me that if you miss you my never get a second shot. So I think training is important. Get a foundation and grow from there. Very important. That's my plug nickle.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 01:33:17 (ZULU)


Hogs - raffle status - we have 400 paid tickets, 129 to go.... PUULLLLLEEEEEASSSSEEEE STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND PAY FOR YOUR TICKETS IF YOU HAVE NOT ALREADY DONE SO.......

I AM GETTING POSTAL MAIL EVERY DAY AND A FEW PAYPAL PAYMENTS....WE NEED TO GET THESE THINGS IN OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS.....

THANKS ALL :)

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 02:31:16 (ZULU)


Just my opinion based on my own experience.

Before joining the Army, I had limited experience with firearms.  I fired the occasional handgun or .22 rifle growing up, but nobody ever taught me how to shoot properly until basic training.  Thanks to some excellent instructors over the years, I learned enough to fill designated marksman roles and do a little military competition shooting.

As an MP in the Army, we carried our weapons not only in combat, but every day back home too--always loaded.  And we very rarely (across the Army) had an "accidental discharge".  I was always amazed to see infantry guys with less weapons knowledge and much higher levels of "training accidents".  And I can only believe it's because we carried our weapons all the time and they did not.

My idea of how to reduce these accidents?  Good instruction from the beginning, emphasizing safety and weapons discipline.  Followed by enough time actually carrying weapons to build high levels of familiarity.  And good leaders at the NCO level who prevent that familiarity from ever becoming complacency.

RC Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 02:34:07 (ZULU)


Ken - On nickel in Stainless, I can only repeat what was told to us by Gale McMillian when we bought his barrels in 1986.  It was one of the warnings about Sweets, and an old practice of leaving cleaner in the barrels overnight.  Some stainless has up to 10% nickel in it, some stainless has none.  I had assumed that the barrels were still being made with nickel.

Hot and cold ranges - If the great instructors had a student to instructor ratio of what the military has then they would use cold ranges as well.  I don't care how great of an instructor you are, when you have about 500 "young stud puppies" and only about 10 to 15 NCOs watching over that mob of hormones and bordom then you do it as safe as possible.  Should they aready be safe, yes, but that does not explain why Mrs. Smith just lost a son due to a loaded weapon that was bumped in the break area.  I have trained US and foreign troops and until you have you have no idea what a bundh of troops can do once they get bored and are on break.  I Have seen "duels", "gunfights" and an NCO tellin a young just drafted idiot that if he loaded his M16 before the yong stud did then he would shoot him.  The NCO died from a GSW to the abdomen.  This occured before we could get it stopped in El Sal.  In all of these situations you look at METT-TC and look at the T that means Troops available.  When your ratio goes to the point where adult supervision is low then you start taking safety measures.  If you do not due to some "ideal" then you will incur an accident.  Also look at the T as Troops to be trained.  This will also give you parameters for safety procedures.  On our ranges we run with loaded weapons just as we do in real missions, would I do that with 500 romping stomping troopies waiting to get qualed that are bored and wanting to go somewhere else?  Hell no.  It is the difference between military group qual and civian "paid for training".  My thoughts on the subject from long experience in both sides of hte house, which puts me on Gooch's side.  Hi Gooch!  May be in Arkansas, Hot Springs area, this summer.  Will let you know.

Zane - It would be nice if the majority of hte guys joining hte army had experience but about 85 to 90 per cent have absolutely NO experience with firearms when they come in and Basic does not have enough time to instill fully safe gun handling techniques.  That is why there are NDs.

Gooch - Unfortunately the armyhas lost almost all of their unit marksmanship training and what passes for marksmanship training in basic is laughable.  However, the army team still kicked the Marines butt in competition for severa years.  :)

Well off on vacation tomorrow morning and away from cmputers.  Have fun guys and play nice.

Hold Hard guys

Rick

Rick B. Email this member See this member's profile
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 13:33:37 (ZULU)


The idea that someone can pick up a rifle and in 6 weeks time or 15 times that become a expert rifleman just because of the training regiment is a little far fetched to me. I've had plenty of guys on my own local range show up claiming how much military combat time they've had, look down their nose at me, (whom they perceive as a civilian with no experience as they see it) and cite all kinds of pure bullshit they "learned while in the Army". The movies and books always perpetrate the myth. The superhuman hero is always "trained by special forces or some such". In truth most of the real deals such as Hathcock and York just to name two were expert marksmen when they enlisted.  I've had/seen  lots of people I knew who were more naturally suited to becoming great marksmen than others but it's not all just training. It's practice and experience with good training practice that makes the outstanding shooters and in some cases they taught themselves.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 14:18:56 (ZULU)


...pray nothing breaks (such as my back)....I'm off to ASC #4 in a few minutes....

Later

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 14:37:28 (ZULU)


If the stats are right on the lack of folks with firearm knoledge joining the military, then it reflects our society. Much I think is a shift and how the anti gun folks have hammered away at attitudes over the years. Useless laws and the media have weakened attitudes and in turn abilities. Yes the military can train you. I will not argue that. 30 plus years ago we had a different attitude toward firearms in this nation. You could go down and buy a 22 and a box of shells at the corner merchantile store, then go hunting with it. Now its a host of paper work and FBI approval. Marksmanship comes from good eye hand coordination, training, practice, practice, practice. It is getting a bit better these days we are winning a few rights back. Changing attitudes will be the part. The military will benefit from that change in attitude. If you have foundations the military can more easily build upon that. Some folks have natural ability. They have great eye hand coordination. Some need more honing. Some have the ability to spot odd things such as shift in colors or patterns. That might be the enemy or a copperhead against dry leaves. Combine the two with good training and let experience do the rest. Seems like now days we have more bad guys with guns than we have good guys wanting to touch them.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 15:36:38 (ZULU)


Whoah,...I sure never said that it would be wise to put whole training companies of recruits in condition 1.  

Boy, that will send a chill down your spine.  Some of those guys try to escape across an arty impact area (!) because they hate getting up early, or use coathangers to hang themselves in the shower to avoid going on a roadmarch.  

Hand them ammo then start screaming at them?  

No, Lord.  Not me.  We'll turn it up after the first calc midterm.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 15:53:03 (ZULU)



Can't help but chime in now about training, firearms and society now as a whole:

Reading over everyone’s post brought me to this simple conclusion - why were we taught how to shoot and to respect the firearm that we use; simple, it was a tool to teach us about life. First lesson, you may never have a second chance so do it right the first time. Second, our parents wanted us to learn responsibility and to grow up being responsible adults.

In regards to Military and having some weapon experience, I would also apply this to LE. When I performed voluntary work for one of the larger PD here where I live, I was given the opportunity to watch some of their training. This training was for officers who are to contain the outer perimeter of an incident before SWAT arrived. Well low and behold to my astonishment, when I was speaking to one of the instructors, he told me that 99% of these guys has never ever shot an assault rifle. That was a real eye opener for me.

Now, for police survival class, another good 98% of the students have never fired a handgun until they arrived at the academy. The 2% were former military. There were several incidents of safety violations when I was there instructing. My lesson from this, never call the local PD from that area if there is an incident at the house. It would be safer if I took care of it myself – that is a sad written statement but true nevertheless. On the brighter side, I meet some guys who can shoot the pants off of me too but these guys have been in for over 20 years.

Just a note to the above, this is only one department and this is simply my observation and opinion so take it for what it is worth.

As for what everyone else has written, can’t agree more, as for loaded weapon, funny how that heightens your awareness level. Just my two cents…………..

Darren

Semper Fi

Darren Email this member See this member's profile
Bay Area, CA, USA - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 16:01:18 (ZULU)


Speaking about gun handling, check out this link or click my name:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47511

This is Paul Castle and his CAR system of shooting.

Interested in hearing your thoughts on this. I currently have no opinion on this yet.

Darren

Semper Fi

Darren Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 16:21:40 (ZULU)


Training???

Youz young guys don't remember what America was like 50 years ago... Hell, I remember when they invented the flint lock - much betterer than my trusty match lock ;)

Up through the 50's there were thousands of gun shops in New Yawk City... even on Park and fifth avenues.

I was 13 and had a .22 Marlin and took the city bus to take it shooting at the range... there were hundreds of public shooting ranges.

The high schools (in New Yawk city) had shooting ranges in the basemant and most schools had shooting teams - this was repeated all over the country.

In WW2, the high schools all over the country were used as training places, and the guys that went into the army already knew how to shoot "the right way", cuz they had been formaly trained - plus the country boys had been sneakin' up on critters with a .22 since they were seven or eight years old... the military only had to fine tune them and THAT took many weeks - I don't think you can make a good shot in the 16 weeks of basic (along with all the other stuff they have to learn)... it just ain't gonna happen.

I have been a triple certified instructor for many yaers, and have tought police in two towns - I would guess that to make a "good" two gun shooter in the military or police, it would take several hundred hours of supervised training.  And they ain't gonna get it.

It's like driving licenses - you get 10 hours of training, pass a test that consists of driving 5 blocks without an accident, and then they put you out on the road and you take a year or two to figure it out - but with the military, while you are "figuring it out" the enemy is trying to kill you.  Not a good thing (says Martha).

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 16:36:48 (ZULU)


No expert here by any means, but I do know this, no such thing as an "accidental discharge." Negligent. Period. Unsafe handling or individuals endless tinkering with fire control (triggers). Training ivolves doing it. Hathcock even said that you learn shooting by doing it, ALOT. Friend of mine was tasked to go to FT. Wood as civilian instructor to teach active duty "instructors" how to shoot. I've worked at Ft. Wood several times and what I've seen is pretty sad, except for the Marines on post. Mostly MP schooling, but recruit training looks pretty pathetic.

Gooch,

When did you train at PISC? My sister was there in boot during the early '80's

Scott F. Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 17:05:33 (ZULU)


Lito & Darren

I agree with what you are saying. I did a little ditty back in the early 80's to help a police chief out. There was a department that had some female officers. Well on patrol they got into a problem with a very large suspect. This was a mixed patrol male and female. When the suspect attacked the female officer froze. Suspect got away and the male officer was injured. I worked on the side with the female officers for 3 months on tactics/firearns as a favor. THe hardest part was teaching them to do harm to others and overcoming fear to take action. How we are molded in our youth can determine how we react in our later years. We have lost many building blocks in todays world. That effects the military and LE.

I have been working hard with my wife for about 1 year now. She finally pulled the scales off her eyes and said ok teach me. She is doing very well. If someone comes after her there is no doubt that they are going to drop like a sack of potatoes. She has respect for firearms and has learned the value behind them.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 19:24:20 (ZULU)


RC:  I gotta put in the obligatory "yeah, but.." on the MPs.  Sure, they do it very, very well on average--and their safety record blows away all other branches...BUT:

Years ago, I was heading back into the quad in Schofield when the silence was shattered by BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM as a newbie MP "cleared his .45" into the barrel.  Killed the barrel dead.  Just emtied his clip, one at a time, with the trigger.  

I never laughed so hard in my life...

Bill:  SF Trained or training.  Ha!  never got much past the basics with anyone I played with...and for the training I received---that was only the first hurdle:  years later, i realized that I was just starting to get on-board with the program...and I ain't slow; it is just that way

Goes right into 'Lito's comments:  By about year 5 in the army, my front sight post settled down and i gained confidence...by year 7, I was a fairly half-assed marksman.  Those two years I had guys who Rick knows drilling it into my head though (a definate advantage).  I would not have progressed beyond "confidence" in the infantry.  No way.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 13, 2005, at 19:41:21 (ZULU)


Say Lito, I remember in the 50's when Stoger's had a Gun Emporium in

Manhattan.

Dad took me there and we were treated like kings.

You could sit around on Leather Chairs and be entertained by the

sales people

Every type of Lugar Pistol one could think of.

Rifles and Shotguns of every discription.

Big game heads and animals hanging all over the place.

Their shooters Bible was required reading ! LOL

Now their a Warehouse about 2 miles from me.

More like a junk shop than a Gun store.

Bravermans was another place that carried Mil surplus (Anything that

would go bang).

He had an island in the middle of the Hudson River, I beleive,for

safety.

How times have changed !!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, US of Ah - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 21:02:02 (ZULU)


HORMONES AND BOREDOM!!!!  Jeese..about laughed my rear off..no kiddding.

Anyway..Yeah I had 40 guys to run a range with 250 hormonal youngsters running around with loaded weapons.  That included a crew in the pitts, supply guys etc. WHen we were hot though I has a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio on the line.  With a 40 point firing line that usually gave me 40 on the line 120 or so on the ready line and a crew in the pitts.  Hot range wasnt an option... Having said that though when we trained the Force recon or Security force guys we were hot.  

SHootings....been there done that...Had one of them FOrce recon guys shoot himself in the leg (accident) had a recruit shoot himself inthe hand (on purpose) was in Okinawa when one MP shot his friend "accidently" when they were playing around with thier .45's, seen the aftermath of 2 sentries playing with M16's on post (one's head was sprayed all over a wall).  Oh well..

Out here

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Mt Ida, AR, - Friday, May 13, 2005, at 23:53:59 (ZULU)


Hogs - RAFFLE STATUS --- WE'RE AT 443 PAID TIX THIS EVENING, 86 TO GO.... IF YOU HAVEN'T PAID FOR YOUR TICKET, PLEASE DO SO.....

THANKS ALL - THAT DRAWING'S GETTING NEAR..... :))

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 01:03:29 (ZULU)


On the other hand, pulling sentry duty with an unloaded weapon seems a little silly.  Several years ago at Bragg, a guy with a shotgun went around robbing them.  

I'd rather carry a little-league baseball bat.

If you can't shoot when you go in, you can't shoot when you come out.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 01:26:58 (ZULU)


Things ain't bad yet. Wait until all these younguns who are being raised by "soccer moms" get to be adults.

LATER  Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun Email this member See this member's profile
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 01:33:52 (ZULU)


WTF!!!!!!!!!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050513-122032-5055r

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20050514/ts_nm/mexico_usa_dc

Our government is failing in one of its most basic functions.

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 05:58:28 (ZULU)


Gooch, Rick and Mike Miller:  You guys should be as competent as any small arms instructors on the planet.  Mike really is quite good.  That isn't an attempt at sucking up, it is a simple acknowledgement of your credentials.  I have had some sorry attempts at instruction and I took several classes from the Elvis Presley (he'd despise that) of your business.  

Of course mass instruction of bored, tired, mean, agressive kids is much different from teaching serious hobbyists and professionals who are either paying with their own hard-earned money, or being sent because they are top guys in their outfits.  Take Mike S for example.  He sells some technical product to yuppies and he's as good of a student as you could ask for.

My son is eight, and he'd no more point a gun at your head than he would grow wings and fly.  He really is fully checked out.  I was good to go when I was five.  My dad and grandfather saw to that.  You didn't even point red plastic guns in my house.  Can't motivated troops like paratroopers and Marines be brought to the level that they can be trusted to treat all guns as loaded, never cover anything they aren't willing to destroy, keep their fingers off the triggers until their sights are on the targets and to be sure of their targets and everything in line with their targets?

And while I'm at it:  It upsets people to say this, but I have seen people brought up to speed with weapons very quickly.  When the Seals were testing the security on the sub pens at Mare Island, a Marine small arms training team trained my E6 squid brother, and a bunch of his buddies, to shoot 1911s and 870s.  These were all technical people who instructed technical subjects, so they were good, smart students.  On Monday morning most of them had no idea what to do with a handgun.  By the end of the week they were all able to knock 'em down.  

You have all been to and taught at the high-speed schools.  Do YOU believe that it takes some ungodly number of years to learn to shoot?

If a student with no unusual physical or mental limitation will employ good learning habits, I believe that a competent instructor with a well-developed lesson plan can show him how to shoot a handgun effectively in a week.  If he practices what he learns for, oh, ten hours a week, carefully reads the right books, and treats the subject seriously, in three months he will be ready for another week of well-developed instruction.  At that point he will be quite good.  If he practices for another three months, then takes another week of instruction, he can be better than he will ever need to be.

A student I know did that, but it took him a year.  By the end of the second class, he was able to smoke the IPSC Masters and AAAs pretty much every time in the man-on-man matches at the local club shoots in CA.  They used race equipment.  He used a 1911 .45 and a Sparks field holster.

Shooting seems only a little more difficult than typing, and far easier than playing a musical instrument well enough to perform in public.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 06:36:08 (ZULU)


SS barrels,

Yes Ken, it is the Chromium(Cr) and low carbon(C) content which makes iron based alloys resistant to rust.  Bear with me, it's early in the morning and the pipes and drums are still thundering in my head, but the Cr atoms react with the oxygen in air to create a thin layer of chromium oxides on the surface of the steel.  You need at least 10.5% Cr to remain in the stainless category, and the 416 barrel steels generally contain (I think) roughly 12-14%.  Other SS can have more or less Cr, just has to stay above 10.5%..

Nickel don't make stainless steel Bravo, though you can add Ni to make the stainless more hard wearing..

Generally 416R contains a small amount of sulfur to make the steel more free machining.  It's predecessor, 410 SS, does not contain sulfur and is very difficult to machine.

Hot summer day today, mid 60's...Hope we don't melt!!

JR

 

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 08:23:24 (ZULU)


CDC, Thank you for the kind words! (It is now large corporations and no longer just yuppies!)

I think the big differentiator with this topic is that there are varying degrees of maturity and commitment within any student population. If the pupil is focused and has time and access to good quality instruction then much is possible.

I think that we have all observed the same thing and we are just stating it slightly differently…

Quality students that are focused coupled with quality instruction and a high instructor to student ratio will yield superior results.

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
Los Gatos, CA, - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 08:31:40 (ZULU)



All - you folks that have hotmail accounts -PLEASE check your spam folders for mail regarding the raffle.... I have called for payments both publically on the rosters and privately through the mailing list for the registered users - and yes - the list mail engine puts the recipient's name in the "to:" field.

I have had lots - and I mean lots of trouble with hotmail and yahoo users not getting the word regarding the raffle stuff.... Please check on this..... There are a couple of favorite folksen's on here that have tickets - that I have not heard from -- that almost makes me think that this mail b.s. is going on again.....

Here's a list of the unpaid tickets so far - If one or more of these is your ticket - plz make contact with me - rifleraffle07@aspiringtech.net .....

thanks all -

2005.04.25.001

2005.04.25.002

2005.04.25.003

2005.04.25.004

2005.04.25.005

2005.04.25.014

2005.04.25.023

2005.04.25.024

2005.04.25.025

2005.04.25.045

2005.04.25.046

2005.04.25.047

2005.04.25.091

2005.04.25.092

2005.04.25.095

2005.04.25.096

2005.04.25.097

2005.04.25.098

2005.04.25.099

2005.04.25.100

2005.04.25.106

2005.04.25.107

2005.04.25.125

2005.04.25.141

2005.04.25.143

2005.04.25.144

2005.04.25.145

2005.04.25.146

2005.04.25.150

2005.04.25.164

2005.04.25.171

2005.04.25.177

2005.04.25.178

2005.04.25.190

2005.04.25.199

2005.04.25.200

2005.04.25.225

2005.04.25.226

2005.04.25.234

2005.04.25.235

2005.04.25.241

2005.04.25.249

2005.04.25.292

2005.04.25.295

2005.04.25.297

2005.04.25.322

2005.04.25.323

2005.04.25.324

2005.04.25.335

2005.04.25.336

2005.04.25.337

2005.04.25.345

2005.04.25.360

2005.04.25.370

2005.04.25.408

2005.04.25.414

2005.04.25.415

2005.04.25.433

2005.04.25.434

2005.04.25.435

2005.04.25.436

2005.04.25.479

2005.04.25.480

2005.04.25.491

2005.04.25.492

2005.04.25.493

2005.04.25.494

2005.04.25.498

2005.04.25.499

2005.04.25.500

2005.04.25.501

2005.04.25.502

2005.04.25.503

2005.04.25.504

2005.04.25.505

2005.04.25.512

2005.04.25.522

2005.04.25.524

2005.04.25.525

2005.04.25.526

2005.04.25.527

2005.04.25.529

2005.05.25.221

2005.05.25.222

2005.05.25.223

2005.05.25.224

thanks all -

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 12:01:24 (ZULU)



Hey Joisey Steve...

>"Say Lito, I remember in the 50's when Stoger's had a Gun Emporium in Manhattan."<

Yup... it was at 500 fifth Ave - about 200 yards north of the big public library - I left permenent nose prints on every gun case and became friends with several of the sales guys there - They stayed friends later when I entered into the gun business.

When Stoeger's went to Joisey, one of the guys went to "Abercromby and Fitch" - man, you wanna talk about a beautiful gun shop - the A&F gun department had a full floor gun shop, with $25,000 cased double H&H African express rifles, and in the next rack were Winchester M70's.  Not too many Rem 700's though.  For you "kids" out there, back when, Remington 700 rifles were in the same status bracket as Savage was - a cheap gun for farmers to toss on the tractor.

>"Dad took me there and we were treated like kings."<

Yup :)))

>"Every type of Lugar Pistol one could think of."<

NEW, unfired, 16" barreled Lugers with artillary sights and shoulder stocks - Yummy stuff.

>"Bravermans was another place that carried Mil surplus (Anything that

would go bang).  He had an island in the middle of the Hudson River, I beleive, for safety."<

You mean Bannerman's.  They had a ratty old place on South Broadway with 30 foot high ceilings, and guns all the way to the top of the wall, a dusty-dank basement, and cannons all over the place - several NEW - UNFIRED Gatling guns - new '66 yellow boy's - I spent my Saturday mornings poking around there.  God, hear me - when I die, I wanna go where Barrerman's went.  I hung around the place when I was in my teens in the 50's (1850's that is ;)).

His island had a REAL Scottish Castle on it (it's still there).  He started after the Spanish American war and bought about 90% of the entire us military decommisioned weapons (bombs too), and continued on through WW1 and WW2.  

It was an arsenal and he had real 16 shells from WW2 battle ships, real bombs, the works - if any country got rid of something that shot or blew up, Ol' Man Bannerman was there with the cash.

Go here, these are very cool...

... and if you guys don't know who and what Bannerman was, then toss your sticks in the river and take up golf!!

http://www.hudsonriver.com/bannerman.htm

http://www.bannermancastle.org/

http://www.hudsonvalleyruins.org/rinaldi/bannerman.htm

http://www.archaeology.org/0301/abstracts/hudson.html

http://www.countryelegancephotos.com/bannermans.html

>"How times have changed !!"<

Yeah, Ju gots that right Mang :((

-

CDC...

>"When the Seals were testing the security on the sub pens at Mare Island, a Marine small arms training team trained my E6 squid brother, and a bunch of his buddies, to shoot 1911s and 870s.  These were all technical people who instructed technical subjects, so they were good, smart students.  On Monday morning most of them had no idea what to do with a handgun.  By the end of the week they were all able to knock 'em down.  

You have all been to and taught at the high-speed schools.  Do YOU believe that it takes some ungodly number of years to learn to shoot?"<

Yes... you have answered your own question - these Squids were already military people so they already had a liking for guns and things "war-like", had already had training in arms and wepons safty, and it took a week (40 hours?) to get them up to speed.

Take a green kid from Boston, and make him a competant Rifle and pistol shooter - not a winning match shooter or sniper, but someone that you would partner with in an armed conflict - I would say over 200 hours of intensive field training (not counting the class room work).

They will get 20 or 30 hours of training, and get the rest in the field.

The average shooter, whether military or civilian "sportsman" is about at the automobile driving license level of "Learner's permit".

-

'lito

Have I mentioned how I feel about Lawyers???

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 14:03:43 (ZULU)


Consider that the less experience a man has with shooting the less importance he places on experience.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 14:48:25 (ZULU)



I despise the statement that "I've been doing this X years" but I really have been doing this for 46 years.  Read the books, took the training, burned the ammo, shot the matches and killed the critters.  You can usually tell what I shot at.  It has a big hole in it.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 15:02:18 (ZULU)



Pablo:  "Yes... you have answered your own question - these Squids were already military people so they already had a liking for guns and things "war-like", had already had training in arms and wepons safty, and it took a week (40 hours?) to get them up to speed."

They were technical instructors and their weapons training was minimal.  Some, if not most, of them had never held a handgun.  Any safety instruction they had had was irrelavent to the doctrine they learned.

"Take a green kid from Boston, and make him a competant Rifle and pistol shooter - not a winning match shooter or sniper, but someone that you would partner with in an armed conflict - I would say over 200 hours of intensive field training (not counting the class room work)."

Given a disciplined student, training doctrine will "click".  That is the point at which they "get" the physical skill being taught.  Many click in week one.  Given a week of formal training at a top school,  140 hours of self-supervised field training, another week of formal training, then 60 more hours of practice, any physically sound, motivated student of average ability should be better combat pistol shooter than anyone he will ever be likely to confront.  I think that rifle instruction should be structured differently.

"The average shooter, whether military or civilian "sportsman" is about at the automobile driving license level of "Learner's permit"."

The "average shooter, whether military or civilian" can't find his ass with both hands.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 15:11:26 (ZULU)


Another analogy for training that I tend to use is driving. When kiddoes, we didn't drive as well as we should have. Lack of experience, forethought, and care typically. And overestimation of our abilities played a significant part I'm sure. Driving, while not necessarily good or bad, but merely at a functional level, is done almost every day on the way to work and back, constituting experience. That experience of driving to work every day does not allow one to stay competitive with Jeff Gordon, but it does allow one to typically outperform a kiddo. I took this idea a step farther, and decreed that I would spend as much time shooting the pistol as I did driving per week, when I was serious about participating in the IDPA state championship. I never made that time goal, but most usually spent a half hour with the pistol on the range per work day, and I did well enough to be taken seriously on that level. The problem here is that without proper instruction, be it in driving or shooting, the odds are not with one for finding it on his own. Although most anyone would find it rediculous to turn an average driver with little to no formal instruction loose on the NASCAR circuit and wager that he'll be competitive, this is what we typically believe possible with firearms. Makes no sense. Between formal instruction and trigger time, most anything is possible. Without either of those two ingredients though, I don't see the cake coming out edible.

JR, I didn't say that nickel made stainless, just that one can't necesssarily say that stainless has no nickel. As well, I was attempting to point out that there is no such thing as one alloy called "stainless steel", as there's slews of different stainless steel alloys. It would be akin to saying Dodge when meaning any brand of SUV, not very clear. As far as chromium, yes, as I understand it about 12% (IIRC 416 resulfurized is about 12.5%) is typical of stainless steel. My earlier statement, which I'll stand by, was nothing more than "there is chromium in many alloys of 'carbon steel' as well, so the presence of significant chromium does not make something stainless necessarily". Of course, I may have a different opinion of what is significant than some others. As a percent is 10,000 PPM, and I typically look for anything above 10 PPM (GRIN)....

I just happened to catch the new Glock spokesman (R. Lee Ermey) last night on the boob tube. He was filming from the sunburn capitol, twentynine palms, and in one segment, the MOUT training area. After stating that the Marines training there that day had all been to Iraq and back, they were going to get some good inner city training. Magwells were virtually all empty, and the instructor ratio seemed to be about one instructor per four man team.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 15:31:53 (ZULU)



   Taking a 7-08 Model 7 out to 600-1000 yards.......

OK, I've got this hankering to ring out my Model 7 for shits and grins. I've got this theory that this thing may have some hidden properties that I don't know about and may make a good lightweight, snipper riffle so long as the fired rounds are kept low to keep the barrel from heating up. I gots to have a rail and rings and switch scopes. I've tried finding a 20 moa base but no luck. Ken Ferrel doesn't make one, neither does Badger. Any ideas?

   Average shooters.......

Don't count us out! We learn fast when we have to. Next year I may forego matches and take some lessons. Don't have cash for both. Unfortunately, I started shooting this type of stuff about 30 years too late.

   Yotebait hit the nail on the head......

"I've had/seen  lots of people I knew who were more naturally suited to becoming great marksmen than others but it's not all just training. It's practice and experience with good training practice that makes the outstanding shooters and in some cases they taught themselves."

When you work for a living, range and practice time are precious hours. Sometimes I think folks that can teach themselves make better shooters. It may take longer, but the lessons learned are easily remembered by process of elimination.

  My local range.......

Getting ready to find another range. The land owners have now started closing the road to the range if it rains a little. They say we are tearing up their damn DIRT fricking road. Hell, we can only shoot on weekends anyway! How many weekends have rain??????? It is conceivable that the range could be closed every weekend!!!!! ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

  Related to the above......

It may be that I can't test the loads that I developed early this spring when the temps were in the low 60's. My best loads over the chrono were with 43.6gr. 4064. I may not have the opportunity to see what happens when the temps hit 90 degrees down at Butner next month. Based on the temp sensitivity of 4064, is there a way to cipher if this load will go tits up in highter temps? I'd hate like hell to load up a hunert rounds of boolits and not be able to fire em in the heat.

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
NC, - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 15:36:46 (ZULU)


Dan asked:

>>Do YOU believe that it takes some ungodly number of years to learn to shoot?<<

Depends on what you mean by "shoot."  To hit targets with regularity on the pop-up lanes requires a 25 meter zero and an elevation adjustment off the A2 rear aperature.  The kid doesn't need to know where his bullet is in relation to his line of sight to hit from 50 to 300; and he may not even ever care.  yet, he can, with a steady hold, good trigger control and prpoer sight picture---be 'expert."

We're not defining terms.  Functional describes my 'expert" here; beyond that skill-set lies true expertise.  And an understanding of external ballistics may be all that is needed to kick start some of these kids to a deeper understanding.

FWIW:  I have had NCOs attempt to describe external ballistics to kids with: "Then the bullet rises..."  "it doesn't start to drop til it hits 460m" and worse...It takes a lot of practice to move beyond that (and training)---in the army, this takes years only because the boolits aren't piled up at your feet.

Oh, and desire to push it, a mission that supports it, and a unit that values it...

Absent any of the three--and you get, at best, functional shooters.  IMHO, that functional troop is a worthy goal---improvement is measured in little steps.  

Ken:  re working my pay-pal account.  I'm gettin' er done today.  Ya need more raffles; so I'ze can remember all my account info!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 17:03:00 (ZULU)


Sorry for not getting back sooner. Been busy as hell.

On the training topic. I agree with CDC on this (By the way thanks for the kind words) I will put it into simple terms:

1. You need good instruction in a smaller ratio of student to instructor. By that I dont mean counting guys who really just pull targets as instructors.  In the class CDC attended we had two target pullers James and I for 12-14 students.  Thats not bad so we could really help the guys who needed it (CDC was not one of the needy students he came in an excellent shot)

2. Good students. Lookwhen I first started teaching for James he had a long time student that just came out hard headed and screwed up time and time again. He really just shot without thinking. I worked on him until he got it.  It was rough and I pissed him off so much he never came back, but atleast when he left he could shoot.  Some students take longer to get it than others so this is a big if in how long it takes.

3. You need a good place to work and a place where the student will learn not copy what others are doing.  I say start them thinking right away. One of my favorite things is get them doing UNK Distance as soon as they can group at 600 yards.  Get them in a valley and walk them around in circles so they cant keep track of the distance. Make them lay down and shoot from every bad position you can.  I mean get them to shoot from holes, hums and different size bushes.  A few days of this wil make them into shooters in the field.

Now I figure about ten days will train a rifle or pistol shooter to be pretty good. The field craft takes much longer as does the tactics. Then its all about practice.

Lastly no one knows how they will react until they get smacked in the face.  That takes crap running down your leg.

On cleaning. CDC, I end up looking for copper in bore with light because many times you get a blue from cleaning rod.brush brass when bore is clean.

Now for quicky cleaning. I do this. Swab bore with jag tip Hoppes or Shooters choice.  Take old bronze brush and wrap with patch, soak in Hoppes BR or Shooters Choice and run through bore. Screw brush off and do again with clean patch. Do this six or so times,until patch is clean, and then use dry old brush wrapped in dry patch and repeat six or so times. Then run two oil soaked patches the same way. The two or three dry patches. That will do most any good bore quickly.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 17:38:27 (ZULU)


Well, I went and did it.

One of the fellows I work with invited me to a skeet shoot, now that I own a shotgun (again). Turns out there's a local club that does this kind of thing. And true to his word, nobody laughed me off of the lot.

Besides being a good friend and good shot (as already mentioned), Michael turned me on to a good deal on a Remington wingmaster 870 riotgun that was being "retired". Now you guys that know me, know that I've NEVER said I was decent with a smoothbore, or even acceptable. I've never played in any of these formalized type smoothbore events either, and extremely few informal ones.

My boy said he saw 19 (out of 25) get smacked. I question if that wasn't a maneuver on his part to get out of chores today (GRIN), but I do know that sounds roughly right and I wasn't concentrating on the number of hits.

So am I on my way to ruining my rifle shooting if I start playing this game as well?

I did note that on the far left targets, I would have done a perfect snap-shot with a carbine, but missed anyway with this thing. I'm guessing lack of follow-through (not that I know anything, but I've heard.......). Heck, this is almost like cheating. I get to call for the bird, and nobody cries foul when I do so from a firm and prepared Rhodesian ready. One of the nice fellows there even gave me the sage advice of "son, you don't have to lean over to say pull, that thing will hear you even if you're standing ready" LOL!

The most amazing part is that there were no snickers, even by the $12K over-under guys.

Said coworkers boy though, is on his way to state if this next shoot goes well. He hit 48 out of 50. Great to see kids doing this too!

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 19:11:42 (ZULU)


Meant to add.Wind reading takes lots of time to learn and lots of practice. Many have read on here that I am good at it. Well a few months ago I shot a comp in Texas and screwed the pouch on wind calls for two days straight. Between all the surgeries and only shooting in fairly easy winds, over last year, I just plain was not well practiced when the comp came.  Time to go shoot for a few weeks with small caliber and hit varmints at long range.  Plus they did not give me time to set up spotting scope. A crutch I love to use. LOL

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 19:33:42 (ZULU)


Yes Lito ,Bannermans and his Island!

Braverman published some sort of Early Gun Rag?? Maybe the for runner of Shot Gun News.

Boy in the early 60's some  SGN issues were as thick as the New York Times.

I remember Stogers had the most beautiful Luger .30 caliber carbines.

What a piece of workmanship,including a 32 shot? Snail Drum Magazine

that would give an AFT agent a Heart Attack ! LOL

Those were the days !!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, US of Ah! - Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 20:48:22 (ZULU)


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/weekinreview/15bennet.html?ei=5065&en=b9ea6e3900fe9d11&ex=1116734400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

These folks seem to have a hard time defining the "insurgents" goals in Iraq, ideologically or politically.  

Newsflash:  It ain't an insurgency.  It is terrorism.  Duh.  I guess all that group-(PC)-think of "freedom fighters" blew smoke up their own backsides.  heheh.  

Following this illogic, the whole thing comes apart in front of their eyes as they compare Iraq to China or Vietnam.  The true history lies in Somalia and Spain---spank enough butts, and the west goes away.  Sha'ria follows the vacuum, as defined by Wahabbism.  That much is easy enough to see....unless you have preconcieved romantic notions of the inherent superiority of anyone opposed to US or western values.  Then, you may have difficulty understanding what is playing out before your very eyes.

I find it amusing as hell to read stuff like this.  Good lord, they dance around the obvious---doesn't anyone else see this elephant in the room?

Ken: paypal seems to have worked finally.  4 more paid, according to the website.  

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 14, 2005, at 23:39:23 (ZULU)


The big-game hunter walked into the bar and bragged to everyone about his skills as a hunter.

The man was undoubtedly a good shot and no one could dispute that.

But then he said that he could recognize any animal's skin by feeling it, and he could tell what caliber rifle was used to shoot it by locating the bullet hole.

This was a bit too much for the other customers, and soon a heated argument started.

The hunter said that he was willing to prove it if they would put up the drinks, and the bet was on.

They blindfolded him and took him to his first animal skin.

After feeling it for a few moments, he announced, "Springbok." Then he felt for the bullet hole and declared, "And it was shot with a .22 rifle."

He was right!

The others could not believe it and the argument was even hotter than before.

When someone suggested that he must have peeped, he said that he was prepared to do it again for another round.

So they blindfolded him again, very thoroughly this time, and they brought a skin that someone happened to have in the trunk of his car.

He took a bit longer this time and then said, "Kalahari Lion." Fingering the bullet hole, he added, "The rifle was a .308."

He was right again!

This only made the crowd more curious, and he had to prove his skills over and over again, every time winning a round of drinks.

Finally he staggered home, bombed out of his mind, and went to sleep.

The next morning he got up and saw in the mirror that he had one hell of a shiner.

So he said to his wife, "Listen, I know I was drunk last night, but not too drunk to know that I didn't get into a fight. So where did I get this black eye?"

His wife replied angrily, "From me!"

"What did I do?" he asked.

She replied, "You got into bed and put your hand inside my panties. Then you fiddled around a bit and announced, "Skunk, killed with an ax!"

I thought it was fuuny,   ;)

Jim B. Email this member See this member's profile
Glendal, AZ, You can't win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless. - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 02:36:00 (ZULU)


Undude; Now you tell me!

I'm only 10 days from being "pretty good". Hell I may be good but I'll never be pretty.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 02:49:16 (ZULU)


One of about 30 tornadoes that dropped out of the sky around here last Thurs. night. (video taken by storm chasers)

http://www.stormchaser.ca/2005/05_12/May_12.wmv

(or click on my name)

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, United States of America - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 03:01:53 (ZULU)



A gun to most cops is just like the notebook in their pocket ... except the notebook gets far more use. Therefore, many many cops just can not shoot.

But ... some of them can.

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 03:24:40 (ZULU)


Mk4 - sheeeeeiiitt .... I'd find another hobby... LOL

take care all

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 03:27:27 (ZULU)


Boy ya miss a lotta stuff here when you're on the honeydo list.

Rev. Niemueller- I had the privilege of listening to his sermon during compulsory chapel at college.  Worth the hour for once.  The way he told the story was somewhat longer.  This is as best I can remember it after...........a long time.  His reference to speaking out had to do with the Church. The rev was head of the Luthern Church.

"First they came for the communists.  We all understood this and approved. " (Note: there was actual warfare in the German streets after WWI between various politcal factions and what could be called warlords.)  "Then they came for the Jews.  We did not understand this, but felt that there must be reasons.  Then they came for (can't remember) and we questioned this.  No one spoke out.  Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out."

ND & training-one of the things being left out here is the attitude of the other troops.  A while back I jumped all over one of the kids that work here for lack of muzzle discipline on duty.  About the time he opened his mouth to talk back, all his buddies jumped his butt too.  All they needed was for someone to indicate that kind of stuff shouldn't be tolerated.

Random thought- threw some stuff away from retirement communities for golfers and horse folks.  Why aren't there retirement communities for shooters?????????????????

Ken-the guy we bought our land from in Louisa has 100 acres behind us for sale.  About 5 acres clear, the rest woods.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 03:32:23 (ZULU)



Bravo:  "So am I on my way to ruining my rifle shooting if I start playing this game as well?"

It is great for your presentation with sporters.  If you really need a challenge, try sporting clays.  The first time is painful.

BKS:  "But ... some of them can."

No question about it.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 04:30:07 (ZULU)


A thankless job !

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/kosovo.html

Steven Dzupin Email this member See this member's profile
Wayne, New Joisey, USof Ah! - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 13:30:56 (ZULU)


All - raffle status -- we're at 68 unpaid tix....

Ya - My neighbor said that there are barby dolls, scooters, easy bake ovens, etc showing up from folks with names she doesn't recognize...for her little girl...

I told her it's just our roster hogs trying to get abit of a raffle edge... after all consider who we're dealing with... can't hide from you guys..... LOL....

take care all --- my goal is to have the drawing next sunday :))

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, VA. (providing the next president - George Allen?, USofA - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 15:16:43 (ZULU)


Mk4

Been through a couple of twisters over the years and just as soon pass on any more. Was on an enclosed deer stand when one came through in the 1970's. I felt like a marble in a paint can. Humbling experience.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 17:06:11 (ZULU)


Hey Gents Been awhile, Finally got back last friday from the training trip, Definately had a good time. Its nice to be able to lurk agian. I went to my local Gun shop, and they had a Extremely nice HK SR9 in the back, since I have been wanting to pick up a semi-auto Long range .308 I had to get it, sadly though I have to ship it up to my home in Washington so that I can pick it up since CRCA (Communist Republic of California) doesn't think it is worthy and has banned it, go figure. You can still get Any M1 that you want, go figure.

I picked up a Leupold 3.5 - 10 X 40  Illuminated reticle 6 months or so ago which ended up on my TRG-42 I like Luepy but Since then I have had the pleasure of using a NightForce at work, I am converted. It had Hollow Mildots with a small dot in the very center for exact measurements. The dots were a total of .25 of a mil which made it measureable down to .125 of a mil if it was at the outer edge of the next mildot. We were able to mil it out on 40x20 hanging steel plate cut-outs all the way out to 966 yards and get first round hit most every time depending on if wind was called properly or not ;). We verified the range of the targets with a Lica Vector after we finished shooting . We were able to get within the exceptable plus or minus mil range of the target.

The only down fall of the NightForce is that it is $$$. But I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to, what you are putting it on and how you feel about quality.

I got to run, so I am going to slip back to lurking...

Morgue Email this member See this member's profile
SanDog, Ca, Gu old US of A - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 17:58:04 (ZULU)


Bravo

That's a nice little scatter gun you picked up. I got a Win model 12  pump I use. Thing kicks like a mule. I have to be a bit careful with it. I think I can only shoot lead in my old barrel.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 22:17:27 (ZULU)


Bravo, I guess since we were talking about rifles, and this is SC, we should limit the discussion to steels that are viable for rifle barrels.  Not trying to be anal, but precision in discussion is valuable to me.  I apoligise if I have been unclear.

We have already established that 416R has minimal nickel, AISI 410 has no appreciable nickel either. 17-4(or one if it's propritary variations such as Carpenter 360) does have 3-5%, and a few folks have tried to use it for barrels, notably Freedom Arms and Ruger for the cylinders on their SRH in 454 Casull.  To my knowledge, no one has used it for rifle barrels aside from prototypes or very limited production.  If they are, good on them.  I don't believe you could economically manufacture match grade barrels for the entire M24 fielding run from 17-4, let alone replacement barrels.  Of course, this might have been another $500 hammer.

I miss Gale.  I used to argue with him about the pre-64 M70's superiority for hours.  He was irredeemably cursed with M700 lovitis.  I guess it's fully possible he used 17-4, after all he insisted on M700's.

Accidental discharges result from weapons breakage.  This is normally about 1-3% of occurances.  I recall one being reported when the trigger assembly fell out of a M249 due to a broken retaining pin. Most are due to shooter error, thus ND's.

Low student:instructor ratios are very important to proper instruction, this is why you have NCO's.  Training the NCO's properly is thus considered extremely important.  We have failed to do so and must correct the error.  No time like the present.  I went into the USMC shooting Master scores and having 18 pts towards being Distinguished, I realize I am an abberation.  That aside, there is nothing that prevents us from training the infantrymen, at the very least, to acceptable standards.  Just the Recon guys, or just the MSF guys or just the SF guys isn't adequate.  Because if the enemy sees that one group is good and another is weak, they will almost without exception attack the weak dicks!  BTDT.  After you get your grunts up to speed, you then have a large base of NCO's which can then be used to train the rest.  This is about a three year, peace time program.  Which is properly when you train the troops.  We FUBAR'd this, and now we pay the price for eight years of Clinton and blowjobs.  Some guys spent their own time and money getting up to speed, I did with many guys from my platoon and getting shot at wasn't a world ending deal.  Unfortunately, this only goes so far.  Our gunfighting skills were fairly good, but we didn't use any frags or AT-4's because(IMO) we didn't ever really train with them.  Not exactly surprising, and not things you can train with on the local range.  My one attempt at using practice grenades during break contact drills on a local range resulted in a rather funny episode that destroyed a rear window of someone's car.  Trying to do this on military ranges would have resulted in too much "safety" oversight to actually get a damned thing done.  Plus they only really allocate ammo for KD ranges, which are of almost zero combat training value past establishing fundamentals of marksmanship, which is never going to happen with, at best, two weeks per year customarily allocated to KD range.  

Honestly, I think we need to give up on "safety" as currently applied after basic training.  War is an inherantly unsafe vocation.  If the soldier or Marine is too stupid to handle the four safety rules, I don't think they should survive to return to civilian life because they are too stupid to be allowed to vote.  Now what to do about the 90+% of the country with no military service?  S/F...Ken M      

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 16, 2005, at 01:33:38 (ZULU)


Ken M:  Don't care if the steel has '56 Chevy in it--so long as I win that SCLE#1 offering in this raffle!  Yulck-yulck.

Third week in a row...I took leave as it seemed the only viable time off I'd get in a while.  Being desk bound much of the time...I get to post alot.

Joe m

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 16, 2005, at 02:04:35 (ZULU)


AN OLD FRIEND IS DEAD, SHOT BY POLICE IN HIS HOME

An old friend of mine called today to tell me one of our old "Group" that ran around togeather back in Michigan was dead. I met Fred "Gunner" Bletz in 1971 just after we both got out of the service.

Fred served with the One Nine Marine Corps, one of 12 surviving marines that walked off Hill 861 South after the VC over ran the hill in 1967 killing all but 12 marines in the One Nine. He got one of two Purple Hearts there.

He also served later as a Huey door gunner (where he got his nick name), was shot down and wounded, captured by the VC, escaped and spent 5 days in the jungle getting back to his base camp. This time the wounds put him out of the Corps with his second purple heart.

It doesn't say it in the News Papers but he also received the Bronze Star with "V" device for Valor. The last wound, an AK-47 round threw the top of his foot ended his days in the Corps and started years of fighting with the VA to get a "Combat Injury" treated. It took untill the mid 80s for him to get his foot operated on and they finally changed his disability from 10% to 80%.

He was a stand up guy, and one hell of a friend. I ate at his table, bounced both Zack and Heather on my knee when they were babies. We'ed handload all week and shoot up 2-3000 rounds on the weekend. Fred was a deadly shot and his wife Kitty was no slouch with a 30/30.

Read the account closely, his son Zack was BETWEEN him and the police. His son was in the Line-of-Fire, the police were behind his son and fired past him to hit Fred. There is NO WAY Fred would have drawn on Police if he knew who they were. And he sure as Hell wouldn't have put his son in that kind of danger.

Kitty, Fred's wife was out of bed in seconds (They were both asleep) and at Fred's side begging for the police to help him. They told her EMS was on the way as they dragged her off Fred, hand cuffed her and tossed her in back of a crusier with her son. Fred bleed to death, alone, on the floor of his family room. While these two "Public Servents" stood there and watched withour rendering ANY assistance.

Zack is staying with my friend that called, he's trying to get through to Zack that it's not his fault his dad is dead. It doesn't sound like he's getting threw to him though. Please Pray for them, I have to go now I can't see the key board through the tears.

Deputies didn't identify themselves to slain vet, son says

Saturday, May 07, 2005

By Ken Kolker

Copyright 2005, The Grand Rapids Press

SARANAC -- Fred Bletz would not have known the men with flashlights and guns in his house were deputies when he awoke in the dark late Tuesday and pulled his own handgun, just before he was shot and killed, said his son, Zachary Bletz.

Advertisement

Deputies were at the home to arrest Zachary Bletz, 28, on a bench warrant. Zachary Bletz said Friday he stood between his father and the two Ionia County sheriff's deputies when one of the officers fired the fatal shot.

"This was just him protecting his house," Bletz said.

Ionia County Sheriff Dwain Dennis has said the shooting, by Sgt. Travis Gribble, was "by the book" and justified.

He blamed it on Fred Bletz, saying the 56-year-old Vietnam veteran threatened the officers with a .45-caliber handgun and refused to follow repeated commands to drop it. Bletz did not fire a shot, police said.

Ionia County Prosecutor Ron Schafer said he expects the state police to finish their investigation next week. He will review the case to determine whether the shooting was justified. He said he would not comment until the investigation is complete.

The officers -- Gribble and Deputy Brent Denny -- were at the Bletz home, 7799 Centerline Road, to arrest Zachary Bletz for failing to appear in court on a misdemeanor drunken driving case. They could not be reached for comment Friday; they remained on paid administrative leave.

State police at the Ionia post refused to comment Friday. Sheriff Dennis was out of town and could not be reached for comment. Undersheriff Dale Miller did not respond to repeated phone messages.

Zachary Bletz, who works as a disc jockey at several Grand Rapids-area nightclubs, said he and his parents were sleeping when he heard a knock at the farmhouse's back door about 11:30 p.m. Tuesday.

He said he answered the door to a deputy holding a flashlight. A second deputy, also holding a flashlight, came from around a corner of the house, he said.

'I sensed the tension'

Bletz said he was leaving with the deputies in his slippers when one of them told him to go back inside for a pair of shoes.

Bletz said he was walking back into the house when he felt nudging from behind. Both deputies had their guns drawn, he said.

"I asked if they had a warrant" to be in the house, but they kept following him inside, he said. "I told them, 'I'm not going anywhere.' I sensed the tension."

The deputies were greeted by the family's barking dog, Bletz said. Bletz said the house was dark, except for the beams from the officers' flashlights. The officers, still with their guns drawn, yelled for him to shut up his dog, he said.

Then Fred Bletz came out of his back bedroom with the gun.

Zachary Bletz said he stood between his father and the deputies, his arms stretched between them. They were no more than 6 feet apart, he said.

"I was like, 'Dad, Dad. It's OK.' And I'm telling them, 'It's my dad. It's my dad."

He said the deputies never identified themselves to his father as police. He doesn't recall if either of the deputies told his father to drop the gun, he said.

Suddenly, he said, he heard a shot, the first of several. He said he dropped to the floor, looked over at police, who were still standing, then over to his father. He said he saw his leg and heard him wheezing.

His mother, Kathryn, rushed out of the bedroom and turned on a light, he said. Deputies pushed her to the floor and handcuffed her, then led him and his mother to a patrol car, he said. He said deputies wouldn't let them back inside to be with his dying father. His sister, Heather, was not home, he said.

Slain man had carry permit

Ionia County records show Fred Bletz had a concealed weapons permit, which was issued in June 2002 and was good through next month, though he didn't need one to have a gun in his home.

In addition, Grand Valley State University Professor Kristine Mullendore, a former Kent County assistant prosecutor who teaches legal studies, said if homeowners have a reasonable belief their home is at risk, "Michigan law allows ... the right to use force."

Bletz said his father suffered in the past from post-traumatic stress syndrome, an emotional disorder common among war veterans. But Zachary Bletz said he had not suffered flashbacks in years.

Bletz was missing in action in Vietnam for five days in 1967 after the helicopter on which was a gunner was shot down. He received two Purple Hearts.

The deputies sought Bletz's son for failing to appear in Grand Rapids District Court for a Feb. 24 pretrial hearing on a misdemeanor charge of drunken driving. Zachary Bletz said he didn't show up because of money problems.

After arresting him on the warrant, deputies released him to be with his family.

TreverSlyFox Email this member See this member's profile
Houston, Missouri, USA - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 02:18:12 (ZULU)


Ken M:  "If the soldier or Marine is too stupid to handle the four safety rules, I don't think they should survive to return to civilian life..."

That would be fine if they only shot themselves.

Pablo: The Bannerman stuff was new to me.  My dad told me about the 16s from the Mighty Mo.  Now there's an interesting item to have in the inventory.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 16, 2005, at 03:24:26 (ZULU)


CDC, no problems, it's amazing how eager troops are to weed out the weak links.  

And to be brutally honest, the idiots will kill fewer troops in training then the get killed in Iraq/A-stan.  As I said, it's not a safe vocation.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 16, 2005, at 04:15:46 (ZULU)


Trev;

I pray for the Bletz family, and feel your loss, I have also lost freinds, long close to me.

Jim B. Email this member See this member's profile
Glendale, AZ., You can't win the hearts and minds of the heartless and mindless - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 05:20:55 (ZULU)


Don't know how I missed this but Col. Hackworth passed away a couple weeks ago...

http://www.hackworth.com/

I'll miss his commentary.  Always interesting and entertaing.  

Didn't see any posts here on this.

LT

LTChip Email this member See this member's profile
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 07:00:24 (ZULU)


I have been being FLOODED with spam from - what appears to be - Germany...

Anyone else this lucky?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 13:31:01 (ZULU)


Trevor, sorry for your loss. This is not the place to air one side of a story such as this. As hard as it is dont react out of hurt. 24 Years as LE Officer here and it has taught me to:

Dont beleave everything in a papers.  The recent Newsweek  crap is a good example of this.

Dont beleave everything someone says involved in an incident such as this. Somewhere between all the stories the truth usually is hidden.

Dont condem anyone without all the facts.

try and place yourself in all the folks position.

Be strong for the family. All will need it.

Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 14:33:39 (ZULU)



Sharon...

I have been getting a ton of spam from Germany in the last five days... something about your Red dress doesn't match your pink pumps and blue purse ;)))

-

About the Bletz thing - 11:30 at night, to serve a warrent for a traffic matter, in a dark house, from the back door... ya gotta wonder, was that a test for Mensa?  If so, they failed.

-

'lito

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 15:51:15 (ZULU)


Catman; you took the words rightouttamamouth.

Mike; Maybe those guys didn't get the 10 day training even:).

Realistically though....

Kinda hard to think they didn't mention the fact they were Law Enforcment officers to somebody they met in the hall with a .45. Under the same conditions around here you'd expect to bury a couple of bodies at least possibly 3. Probably if they weren't dead.... 2 would have on uniforms with 12 ga holes in the kevlar. I don't think we've ever had a officer on our force around here that would be neglectful in that situation about idenitifying himself to a isolated farmer in HIS house at night.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 16, 2005, at 17:24:31 (ZULU)


Raffle status - we have 65 unpaid tix.  It's been 7 days since we've called for payments... I checked the postal mail today and there's one check in there -- that's it..... starting to wonder....

HOTMAIL users - please check your spam folders. There are some very popular names on here that have not paid yet.. I'm wondering if they are getting my announcements.....

Unpaid tickets will be listed sometime wednesday.....

take care all ....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 17:30:01 (ZULU)


Trevor

Sorry for your loss.  You and the Bletz's will be in my prayers.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 22:20:56 (ZULU)


re: Leupold Alumina accessory retrofit

http://www.leupold.com/products/accessories_alumina.htm

"The Alumina accessory system fits all 2004 and newer Leupold riflescope models (except LPS and the VX-III 1.5-5x20mm Illuminated model). For retrofit threading options on Leupold riflescope models manufactured prior to 2004, contact the Leupold Custom Shop at (503) 526-1400 or via email."

Leupold Custom shop replaces objective and eyepiece components to change the threads from the pre-2004 configuration to the post-2004 configuration.

This would presumably render any existing sunshade accessories as surplus, since they would be configured for the pre-2004 thread.

Differently numbered post-2004 sunshade accessories are available.

For any Canucks reading this, Leupold's Cdn rep Korth Agencies is not set up to do this work.  Because of ITAR rules, you'll go thru federal paperwork hell (mostly on the US side of the border) if you want to lawfully transact the scope upgrade w/Leupold.  That is assuming that Leupold is willing to participate in that kind of mess.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 16, 2005, at 22:56:40 (ZULU)


Catman,BRogers, like I said not best to run with limited info. For info here in Ca we dont, by law serve Misd. Warrants between 2200 and 0600 hrs.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 04:18:13 (ZULU)


Eldest daughter just got home from Iraq Saturday.  Slept for 14 hours, then hit the ground running!  I have standing orders that there will be NO DCU's in visible evidence when she's around.  I've already had to counsel her that you can't dp a PIT maneuver on cars passing you, and no bursts into the idiot drivers.   Boudicca was a little white-knuckled at her driving, but a Jeep is apparently like a Ferrari after a 5-tonner.  I guess they don't have fajitas and guacamole in the sandbox.  It was a real eye-opener to see baby girl consume that much beer....heh heh.  Chunk off'n the old blockhead.  We had a little family BBQ the second night, and I could see some of the signs of disconnect.  We spoke of how weird it is to be in-country one day, and in the USA 24 hours later.  Bad thing is, in 15 days she'll have to do it all in reverse.  I've purposely stayed away from trying to get her to regale us with stories, I think that'll come soon enough.  She did say that Toyota pickups don't fare too well against Ma deuce....

SniperQuest in a month or so....who's going?  If I could get Dirty Steve to let go of that red dress and pumps, I'd have a team.  C'mon, guy....you can still take the hormone therapy, just wear a ghillie for a day or so.

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 04:29:24 (ZULU)


Mike; Fair enough, I guess I'll wait for the movie.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 04:55:29 (ZULU)


Mike...

What 'yote Bate said!

-

CatShooter Email this member See this member's profile
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 18:40:29 (ZULU)


Saw a buddy of mine this weekend.  A few years back, he prosecuted a gay dentist, who was molesting young boys after doping them up.  The guy was referred to as "The Tooth Fairy".  My buddy actually got away with saying that in court.

No joke.

Don't know what that has to do with shooting, but I'm sure I can find a thread.

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 20:26:50 (ZULU)


Charles S- Ok, I'll bite........ wattsa "DCU"?

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 23:44:16 (ZULU)


CDC,

Haven't heard from you on the Kimber.  Drop a dime on me and let me know.

PJC Email this member See this member's profile
Upstate, SC, US of A - Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 00:38:21 (ZULU)


OK gents, anyone played with the new Swarovski 1500 yds rangefinder yet?  I have not bought a Leica yet(the current premium LRF) and was wondering if anyone had any user feedback yet.  

Any extra bit of range you can squeeze out of them is useful when you're playing the countermortar game with your Barret.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 01:18:05 (ZULU)


DCU....Desert Camo Uniform.  Fancy name for what I call "comfortable work pants".  I like the fact that the seat is "relaxed" for my expanding assets....the knees are a lilttle thicker and it's good for all the rock laying (don't say it) I've been doing on the new homestead.   Boudicca is fond of talking of all the landscaping and new projects "we" will be doing...."we" meaning she sits on the deck and tells me what to do.  All this physical labor is playing hell with my shooting pastime, not only do I not have the time to do any, when I tried yesterday, my old muscles were so twitchy it looked like shotgun patterns.  but I can carve wonderful little coasters out of cedar logs now.....

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas`, USA - Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 04:48:46 (ZULU)


For those of you who enjoy lifes little ironys:

Speaking of self-training programs, today at an all too infrequent shooting session with the pistolla, I remembered, with about 15 rounds left (insert smart voice in head here) 'hey, lets try some weak hand practice'. Should have been...'hey, lets try some dry-fire weak hand practice'

Now, mind you I`m not one of those people who could cut off their left arm and never miss it. Not completely ambidexterous, but I do pretty good. For some reason, I thought those several thousand reptitions with my strong side would automatically transfer the muscle memory to the weak side.

Slap, rack, BOOM! Even on the paper! Not bad except for those two bleeding gouges in my right thumb. Lets see, where does that thumb go...Oh, yeah! Up in front! Now I remember.

Warning: that slide don`t care a damn about yur thumb!(but yu`ns knew that dincha?)

Now for the irony. My pretend weak hand practice turned into my real weak hand practice as I struggled to finish off the other 12 rounds without blood on the pistol. What a cob! At least no one else was there to compound the embarrasment.

Lesson learned.

Re; Cleaning Country. com

What about Tetra products. I`ve been using theirs for a couple years with good results. Never seen them mentioned here. Thanks for any info.

Steve Racer Email this member See this member's profile
somewhere in Dillsburg, PA, USA - Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 06:42:11 (ZULU)


From Drudge:  Online sniper training for Iraqi insurgents.  Click my name.  I didn't look for the sites themselves.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 13:30:21 (ZULU)



Steve:  I use tetra grease for my autoloading M21...I also use the oils from time to time; though they seem to gum up in colder weather (OK, obscenely colder weather...).  Slide bite?  My left hand deserves worse in retribution for it's lack of obedience!  

Charles:  Yep; the DCU wears lite---almost as "soft" as the OG107.  I know very little about blended fabric, threadcounts or much else---but I always wondered why the 107s were thin, durable, lite, and quick drying while the summer BDU (1st gen) would just fall apart on the first FTX, then with improvements, would never dry, felt heavy as hell like a sheet of plastic, and still wore out and faded faster than the 107.  Shouldn't new also be better?  Heheh--and, recall the campaign against the "unmilitary" looking slanted pockets.  So many REMF-types simply hated that feature!  The design came from the need to access them under flack jackets in the 'Nam.  Don't look now, but the slant pocket is back.  Oh, and the sleeve pocket (akin to a flight suit) makes an entrance on the new ACU.  Heheh!  Full circle.  Some knucklehead will, when my son inherits the army---say "those uniforms do not look strac..."  as they straighten the pockets and rid the sleeves of that clutter.  Just watch.  We learn slow, unlearn so much faster!  

Dan:  From the article:  "they are very stupid because they have a Rambo complex, thinking that they are the best in the world. Don't be arrogant like them."  (Special Forces)

A corollary to one of my rules (never underestimate your enemy) is:  Let them do just that whenever possible!  Back on my original rule, they seem to want to target these types.  To downplay the ability could be an attempt to inspire such attacks, though it has been a losing effort.  Perhaps, in spite of the insult---there is a realization of the effectiveness...and the need to try anything to thwart it.  Even lying to your own.  Still, it amused me to read that little passage.  Thanks for the link; good intel.  My bud (intel weenie from hell and Iraq) sent the same link to me a few minutes ago...

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 14:26:53 (ZULU)


Hogs

Doing a short Sniper Rifle/Equipment seminar at Reeds Indoor Range, in Santa Clara Ca, 408-970-9870, on 22 May between 1000 and 1400 (or so)hours. They are charging a small fee but not much. Come on down if you want and discuss the gear, use and keeping it working right. Plus a few ideas to save some money.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
CA, - Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 19:48:08 (ZULU)


Now, why would you need to access your pockets underneath a flak jacket?  I mean, we just put them on the helo floor and sat on them, right?

Charles S. Hunt Email this member See this member's profile
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 20:32:10 (ZULU)


I though the slanted pockets was to allow better access beneath the should straps of the LBG (load bearing gear) worked for me in the "Nam"

The side pants pockets worked the best:-))))

Bomac Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 00:27:33 (ZULU)


HOGS - RAFFLE STATUS - OKAY FOLKS - I HAVE HAD SEVERAL FOLKS MAKE CONTACT WITH ME AND ASSURE ME THEIR CHECK IS ON THE WAY.

I HAD AN ARMY MASTER SERGEANT IN IRAQ MAIL HIS CHECK FROM THERE AND GET HERE TODAY. HE MAILED HIS CHECK WHEN WE CALLED FOR PAYMENTS.

SO I'M ASKING - WTF - OVER? WHY THE HELL CAN'T THE LOCAL HOGS GET THIS DONE? IS THIS MY LAST RAFFLE? FOLKS - I HATE LIKE HELL NAGGING FOR TICKET PAYMENTS.....

HERE ARE THE UNPAID TICKET NUMBERS:

2005.04.25.014

2005.04.25.024

2005.04.25.025

2005.04.25.045

2005.04.25.150

2005.04.25.190

2005.04.25.199

2005.04.25.200

2005.04.25.225

2005.04.25.226

2005.04.25.292

2005.04.25.295

2005.04.25.297

2005.04.25.336

2005.04.25.337

2005.04.25.345

2005.04.25.415

2005.04.25.479

2005.04.25.480

2005.04.25.491

2005.04.25.492

2005.04.25.493

2005.04.25.494

2005.04.25.512

2005.04.25.525

2005.04.25.526

2005.04.25.527

YES - I'M PISSED.....

OUT

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 02:24:37 (ZULU)


BTW - folks - I plan to have the drawing this coming Sunday, May 22nd.

It's almost done hogs.... :)

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 02:40:30 (ZULU)


Ken; don't worry bout it maan!We're all cool wid it. It takes some time to do something big as this one is. over and out.

Now that said.... rest of you son's a bitches get yore money in! so's we can give ole Ken a rest and get my new rifle on the way.....

I'm cool... I'm cool....

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 03:47:28 (ZULU)


6.5MM SNIPER RIFLE PROJECT

Hi All!

Got a new project I'm thinking of, and wanted to see what input I could get.  As usual, it'd be much appreciated, whether positive or negative.

I've been following the development of the 6.5mm Grendel AR-15 made by Alexander Arms and that got me thinking...  The 6.5mm Grendel cartridge (based on the 6.5mm PPC) seems to be ballistically superior to the good ol' .308 at long range.  Less drop, less drift due to wind, and almost equal retained energy at 1000m.  And that's in a cartridge designed to fit the AR-15/M-16 magazine.

Now imagine (I thought to myself) that inherent accuracy in a more powerful cartidge like the .260 Remington, .264 WinMag, or .265 Remington Magnum.  Launch the round from a bolt action rifle with a 24" heavy barrel, and what would that produce?

The 6.5mm cartidge is already popular in Europe, and has been for around a century.  It's well-known for it's capability as a hunting cartidge throughout Africa.  And it's popular among many competitve shooters here in the U.S.  And, as already mentioned, it's ballistically superior to the .308.

So why don't we ever hear about it in reference to sniping?

Any input from you guys that have been doing this for a while?

All this sounds great to me in theory, but I have less experience than many of the people here.  If it sounds like a good idea to the experts, I'd like to build a rifle to test the theory.

So, what do you all think?

RC

RC Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 10:41:34 (ZULU)


Bill - thanks for the note man. Yea - I usually get grouchy during that last week of the raffle harranging the slow payers. There's a list of folks that want the dead tickets.

There are a small hand full of ticket holders that have contacted me and made arrangements - there are other ticket holders that haven't done sh*t.

Therefore - I WILL START SELLING THE DEAD TICKETS THIS EVENING. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ANY OF THE DEAD TICKETS - SHOOT ME AN EMAIL AT:  RIFLERAFFLE07 @ ASPIRINGTECH.NET

THANKS ALL :)

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 12:01:52 (ZULU)


>>>I WILL START SELLING THE DEAD TICKETS THIS EVENING.<<<

And if one of those dead tickets in the hands of a new owner should win the raffle, some poor bastard is gonna be really pissed off!

Serves 'em well.  :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale Email this member See this member's profile
Boca Raton, FL, USofA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 12:11:00 (ZULU)


RC - re: 6.5 in a bigger case?

6.5 in a 308 Win size case is called .260 Remington.  6.5-08 when it was a wildcat catrirdge.  Several folks think it's a great innovation.  I suspect barrel life is probably a bit of an issue, since it would be overbore in case versus barrel ratios, but better than the .243 Winchaster cartridge.

There are some nifty 6.5 projectiles, no question.  6.5 x 55 is a popular European cartridge.  I believe it has a case capacity between .308 Win and .30-06 Spr

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 12:50:57 (ZULU)


I recently shot the ASC4 competition using a 24" .260 rem w/ 1:8 twist.  I have a laupa 123 grain scenar going at approx 2900 fps.

The temptation to go with the ~140 grain projectiles from Laupa, Berger, Sierra or Hornady should be resisted in this case, as it just doesn't quite have enough capacity to get them up to their 'performance' sweet spot.  I suspect the 6.5-06 (based on the 30-06 case),.260 Ack Imp. or the 6.5 'Swede' would be one hell of a nice solution to 1000 yard shooting using the very efficient 139 or 142 gr pills.

The big issue with these high performing, low recoil solutions is barrel life.  I suspect the jump from my 123 gr .260 to any of the ~140 gr solutions will darn near half the barrel life, and I only expect something around 3000 rounds with my solution.  The cost to performance gain ratio suggests that only 'gamers' will opt for this round over the good ole' .308.

There are offerings in 7mm that are showing potentially a better compromise between performance and barrel life.  Our own Ken M (sometimes goes by Echo5Mike)has been working up loads in a .280 that sounded pretty impressive, and George Gardner has been toying with 7mmWSM.  I couldn't believe the difference in wind between my .260 and his 7WSM pushing a 175 gr pill... he was running better than half my wind.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 15:11:22 (ZULU)


Bomac:  It just turns out that it workie well for LBE/ LBG (this acronymn has had many changes in 20 years).  The flack vest was the reason the brass went with the design change on the pockets---but the troops had their own ideas about things too.  A jacket that is too hot and bulky to fight in combined with no real protection from the 30 cal; why wear it?  Ya know---we do not have that problem in Iraq for one very important reason----the new vest works, and works well.  The troops believe it and see it.   Iraq is hot already--so the added heat isn't that much of a inconvenience, And, it is acceptable (barely) for mobility.  Otherwise, "Joe" would be sitting on them all over again.

RC:  I own two 6.5s.  One was built in 1905 and refurbed in the 50s.  It sure does shoot!  If it is a barrel burner---it sure does take it's time.  The other is a .260, wheich needs a new barrel because big green's pipe sucked from day one.

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 16:42:51 (ZULU)


out of lurk mode;

On the barrel cleaning thread, If I may add a little.

Last month I was at a match talking to one of the competitors about barrels, fouling etc. This Brit was telling me that they have a lot of trouble with copper and powder fouling in their barrels and asked how we delt with it and what kind of cleaning regimen we used. He thought the powders they had available might have something to do with it.

Having just finished about 125 rounds and 2 days with out cleaning and putting up a pretty good score I told him I usually just run a couple of patches of Butch's through and then dry patch it. I don't spend a lot of time trying to get the last little bit of streak off the lands by the muzzle either. Needless to say he thought I was jerking his chain. Well, I don't clean often and after I clean it usually take a couple rounds to get the elevation back

We talked some more and out of the conversation I found out that he was scrubbing the bore with JB and the polish that they sell until it was bright. That piqued the interest of another shooter who was listening and he brought forth a story about when he was shooting black powder rifles with lead bullets that some where around 10k rounds the barrels would shoot slick and foul because of the smoothness, he said that they would lap the barrels with 240 grit and they would shoot and not foul after that.

I remember when I got my first custom barrel that the fellow who made it told me not to use abrasive compounds in the bore (although I have to admit I have scrubbed a couple inches in front of the chamber on some old ones  just to see if it would help a little) and to use a brush carefully and seldom. Now admittedly that won't work in a factory tube all the time but I 've got to think that a 240 finish that leaves high and low spots creates less surface tension or friction than a smoother surface. Ever take a couple mirror finished gauge blocks and put them togeather? they stick.

JR in Scotland, what do think?

xshooter Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 17:11:11 (ZULU)


240 grit?!?  Ouch!!  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 17:33:49 (ZULU)


240 grit?  Why not just use a file, or a Dremmel tool?  Or a power snake?  Holy smokes ......

I just got some nylon brushes from Sinclair.  Looks like the ticket.  I'll try them out, and if they work, I'll make the switch from brass/bronze.  Question is how the chemicals will affect them, if the bristles will get soft, or brittle.

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 18:19:37 (ZULU)


Please don't misunderstand, I am absoulutly not advocating using 240grit for cleaning (well maybe a Rug**)

I was told this is what some barrelmakers use to lap a barrel (with a lead lap) after it has been rifled.

I stated that I clean with a patch, not abrasives

xshooter Email this member See this member's profile
flatland, ohio, USA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 19:27:28 (ZULU)


Ken, Sorry about the slow pay.

I was sidetracked by  throwing my folks a 50th Anniversary party.

The check WILL mail today.

I hope my past raffle activities will help convince you to hold my tickets.

4i's Email this member See this member's profile
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 20:22:54 (ZULU)


duman re:nylon brushes:

My understanding is that nylon is a lot more resistant to the kind of solvent-based products used by some to clean barrels than the bronze brushes others use.  Makes sense - a bronze or brass brush is made of similar material as bullet jackets, which folks are trying to dissolve.

Nylon is a normaqlly described as having excellent solvent resistance, you have to get into pretty wild solvents before nylon will give up.

I understand that the polymer used in Glock frames is a nylon variant too.

You can get nylon brushes from Brownell's too.

I bought some .50 cal nylon brushes to use for .308 Win and .30-06 chamber brushes.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 23:06:13 (ZULU)


Nylon bore brushes, for my good buddy Duman:

I purchase mine locally, from (ick, gag) wally-world.

They're commonly stocked at lots of places that have loading gear, I purchase the RCBS brushes designed for neck cleaning. They JUST HAPPEN to thread on right, and have an aluminum twist as opposed to the Sinclair brushes I had been using, which have nylon bristles on a bronze (possibly brass) twist.

The only down side is that I've only been able to find them for 5.56 and 7.62. On the good side, that's 99% of what I clean now HA! They're a touch more expensive, although nothing prohibitive, and last significantly longer than any bronze bore brush I've met.

Bravo Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 23:17:44 (ZULU)


Ref: 6.5 sniper?

The 6.5mm performs best across the 1kiloyard envelope when a 139/140 grain bullet is pushed near 3,000 fps.

Barrel life and copper fouling is a very real issue.

The 6.5mm as described delivers only modest momentum at 1Kyd.  If you need the added performance go .300 WM with 190 grain bullets.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Charlottesville, VA, USA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 23:22:22 (ZULU)


Rod,

Thanks for the info.  I'm sure you're right.  With so many chemicals out there, it's hard to know anymore (at least for me).  With the advancements in all areas of technology, I've gotten to the point where I actually read, and follow, instructions.  It's not natural.  Life should be simpler.  

Xshooter,

Nobody was claiming you used sandpaper to clean bores.  The visual sent a shiver down my spine.  Gives me the willy's thinking of doing such a thing.  The comments were rhetorical in nature.  

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 23:23:45 (ZULU)



RC, lots of folks use a variety of 6.5mm rds in competition, most based on the 308(260Rem), the 6.5x55 or the 6.5-284.  There are others as well.  I have chosen to use the 7mm diameter, mainly because I like heavier bullets, but also because there is a small ballistic advantage as well as a small increase in barrel life.  There is a price to be paid in recoil, but I'm a 6'2" 190lb Marine and I really don't think it's that bothersome.  

The 6.5 would get it done as a combat cartridge, and has since 1892'ish.  I think the 7mm is/would be better, especially as a sniper round.  I have yet to do any real testing on glass or other barriers, but I strongly suspect that 168 or 175gn 7mm is better than 123 or 142 gn 6.5mm for this role.  There are LOTS of targets out there where you're going to have to punch through things, the most common is cars/trucks.  Good old laminate glass(approx 3/16"- 1/4") and sheetmetal.  Dedicated AP rds are cool, but you'll NEVER get them.  I tried for six monthes.  I scrounged two cases of Mk262 Mod 1, I'm a damned good scrounger and I couldn't get any 5.56 or 7.62 AP ammo, it ain't there to be had.  So, that said, IMO, it's important for your primary service cartridges to have good/adequate performance in all reasonable cases.  5.56 came up short, even with Mk262.  9mm Para was a damned joke.  5.56 just doesn't have the mass to beat glass with a jacketed lead core/non-bonded round.  Bonded core bullets are not feasible due to cost.  I know of two cases where we didn't kill as many vermin as we could have due to glass/sheet metal and 5.56.  Looking at +/- 7 savages that were not recovered as good savages just from two incidents.  Not to mention that M855 sucks on people in it's own right without even beginning to address glass and metal.  So yeah, a 6.5 round like the Grendel would be an advantage over 5.56 from the standpoint of additional bullet mass alone.  

But, if we're talking sniper rifles, where you have a 2.800" OAL bolt gun, you should be looking at 7mm instead.  We should go to Winchester's or better still Dakota's and a 3.10" or longer magazine, but the 2.800 Remington is adequate.  An SR-25 is a good option if you're going to field a medium gun like a 338LM.  Rick is going to say that semi's cause sniper to kill too many folks from one position and drift into the DM role, resulting in making the sniper a target for counter sniper operations.  This is true and this is always METT-TS&L, but I think the benefits outweight the disadvantages, at least for fighting the vermin we currently fight.  Given proper use of cover and microterrain, I don't see enemy countersniper operations as a significant threat relative to the gain to be had from killing savages faster/better.  Every time a savage gets away he has the opportunity to learn from his mistakes, the faster you kill them the easier it gets.  So killng them when you can is critical.  A semi auto sniper weapon is important for this, in fact, given current realities, the only beter technical solution to make fighting the savages easier would be to eliminate Arabic language support on computers.  For that, Microsuck should be charged with aiding and abetting the enemy:)

I rambled on and on, sorry.  Busy drinking.  I own a 280AI 1000 yd gun, a 7mmRem Mag 1000yd gun, a 7-08 XC gun and a 7-08 M40A1 PIP on the way.  I own a 6.5x55 hunting rifle based on a 96 Mauser.  You can see where I place my money.  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 23:48:38 (ZULU)


240 grit, Hell ain't you guys heard?  That's the accuracy secret of the best shooters!!  Hell, skip 240 and use 120grit, it's twice as good.  Heck, if you like, I'll bring some 120grit and help you "smooth" your bore right before the next match:)  

Jesus, who comes up with this stuff?  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Thursday, May 19, 2005, at 23:50:43 (ZULU)


I'm just glad he's on our side.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 00:14:54 (ZULU)


Bravo:

Brownells lists nylon bore brushes in all the major diameters.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1280&title=NYLON+BORE+BRUSHES

(You may have to cut and paste the URL)

I also just discovered they also list nylon AR15/M16/AR10 pattern chamber brushes, which is a nifty idea.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=19663&title=AR-15%2fM16%2fAR-10+NYLON+CHAMBER+BRUSH

Gee, I wish Brownell's gave me a commission :-)

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 00:16:12 (ZULU)



HOGS -RAFFLE STATUS - OKAY- CHECKED THE MAIL TODAY - SEVERAL CHECKS IN THERE...MUCH BETTER'ER... WE'RE DOWN TO 26 UNPAIDS NOW. SEVERAL OF THOSE HOLDERS HAVE CONTACTED ME AND GOT THINGS STRAIGHTENED OUT. ON THAT NOTE - I WILL HOLD OFF THE FIRE SALE OF DEAD TICKETS UNTIL TOMRROW.

HERE IS THE CURRENT LIST OF UN-ACCOUNTED FOR TICKET HOLDERS:

2005.04.25.014

2005.04.25.024

2005.04.25.025

2005.04.25.150

2005.04.25.190

2005.04.25.225

2005.04.25.226

2005.04.25.295

2005.04.25.345

2005.04.25.415

2005.04.25.479

2005.04.25.480

2005.04.25.525

2005.04.25.526

2005.04.25.527

MY PAYPAL BOX BETTA START RINGIN' OR YOU HOLDERS OF THOSE TICKETS GONNA LOSE 'EM TO FOLKS THAT WANT THEM :)

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 01:23:46 (ZULU)


Xshooter, that post was for (attempted) humor value.  I understand you didn't suggest cleaning with sandpaper.  That said, I can't understand how even a muzzleloader could benefit from additional roughness vice having a smooth surface finish.  

Then again people do all sorts of weird shiite with firearms, mainly because someone told them it would work and they believed.  Firearms are forgiving enough that most times you can't tell anything went south because of what you did until a great deal of time later.  S/F...Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 01:28:53 (ZULU)



Kevin Mussack.

If you are going to ASC4-b this weekend, ask Rod about the relative terminal performance of the .260 on steel

click on my name for a shot from last week.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 01:38:22 (ZULU)


What is the deal with all of the German spam????

Beuler????

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 02:50:02 (ZULU)


Insomniac country,

Well folks, before you start picking on xshooter too much, I use 240grit and coarser to lap barrels.  .

What I think he is trying to say is you can polish a surface too much and reverse the process you are trying to remedy.  That is true.  You can create more problems, in both fouling and the way the bore holds or traps heat.

He is right there is a degree of shininess to consider.  Though I wouldn't recommend ANYONE going out of their way to rough out the bore..There were probably other factors of the bore surface which were causing the muzzleloader's woes as well, bore reamer marks or burred up edges which the coarser grit remedied hurriedly.

You have to remove the powder/carbon fouling before you can remove the copper..I can see if the Brit shooter were using dirty powders they would be scrubbing a bit more, half of them just need to learn how to clean a barrel.  Case in point, VVN170, very good powder for 6.5 x 284, approx 95% case fill, nice burn rate pushing the 139 Scenar @ 3100 fps roughly, and we are getting ES of about 9 fps in our team rifles.  Yes 9.  This powder has also proven to be the most consistent pressure wise, using the Kolbe P-Max it is very consistent.. It is the 1000 yd powder for our fag mags, and has brought home silverware.  Very dirty though, takes much more work to get out than would another powder, no doubt, and on a long match of 3-4-5-6-7-9-1000, would be scrubbing after the 600..

Gonna try this sleep thing again.

later

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 03:06:09 (ZULU)


re: German spam

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/05/16/neonazi.spam.reut/index.html

"...A new computer worm sent right-wing German messages to millions of computers over the weekend in what anti-virus experts said was a sign that spam has become a tool for propagandists as well as scam artists."

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 03:10:33 (ZULU)


Mr. Haxton,

Received item fine. Email crashed. Think I got it straightened out ... Hit me offline. BK

Brian K. Sain Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 03:29:49 (ZULU)


Midway not only has the aluminum twist/nylon brushes but also has chamber/locking lug recess (dual diameter) brushes.

I think Brownell's is best for the nylon brushes.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 03:57:22 (ZULU)


Gooch, I am also getting a bunch of the German spam at my work email address. I have never used that on this site though...

Michael Email this member See this member's profile
Los Gatos, CA, - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 05:08:37 (ZULU)


....if your looking for nylon brushes, contact Montana Extreme...since I've started using them I no longer use brass brushes....these nylon brushes are tough !!!!

JRMoore

JRMoore Email this member See this member's profile
Northern, Virginnie, USofWonderfulA - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 13:30:03 (ZULU)


The 7mm is easier to get the performance out of in my limited experience. The 7mmSAUM produced the best long range results of anything I've tried for a long time. However it wasn't spectacular compared to the 30 shortmags or the .308 for that matter even at 1k.

Ken; Wouldn't you know ole 4i's was off passed out on shine somewhere down there in root hog country.! i's your penalty is that you gotta post something about once a week from now on so's we know your around.  

Barrel shinie? Now we  got a REAL problem! Anybody know where I can fine a shine tester. Besides ole 4i's I mean the other kinda shine.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 13:43:17 (ZULU)


Jim,

Great picture.  Looks cold with that hat you are wearing.

Jerry

Jerry Email this member See this member's profile
Baltimore, Maryland, USA - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 16:47:09 (ZULU)


Jerry, we missed you this year at Allegheny.  That pic was from early Sunday...the wind was blowing pretty hard, the ground was wet and temp was in the 40s.  It made for some interesting shots...

I carried my goretex in the ruck for most of the match...the temp was in the 60-70 range for 80% of the time, with two ten minute downpours and no blizzards this year.

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 17:07:19 (ZULU)


Yote,

I'll test your shine..oh bore shine heheh..Don't worry, I don't believe there are proper handlapped barrels, or unlapped, out there too shiny, too shiny would be YOU have polished them to death..One reason we lap barrels is to polish the tops of the lands, as well as the grooves, to a certain degree of finish, which is shiny, but main thing I'm looking to change the surface 'grain' to the flow of the helix, so everything flows in the same direction.  It is also a QC process which you are checking bore uniformity, and working the bore to achieve uniformity.  I don't go thru the ritual of starting with a coarser grit and working my way up to finer grits to get to surface finish..I start with one compound and finish with the same compound.  There is no need, and continuous lapping will degrade the barrel life, as well as possibly distorting bore dimensions and the rifling geometry cut by the tooling..What I and other barrelmakers including Krieger have found that using a lapping compound too fine actually 'frosts' the bore, as it does little work because you can not get the friction between the bore and the lap..You end up with too much free space between the lap and the bore, and the compound is trying to do the work on its own..Doesn't work..

As far as a polished surface holding more heat Bill, if you can, polish the cylinder end of one factory barrel to a mirror finish..Polish another to not so keen of finish, or leave it sort of rough..Which one takes longer to cool?

All you would need is surface gage test blocks and a borescope to check surface finish..There are packets for milling, turning, grinding, and lapped finishes..Not necessary eh..

Maybe I am talking out of my arse as a lot of my posts regarding are not on a whim, but slightly edjumicated opinions(bore question? there goes JR again they say, time for a lecture), most of my technique and application has evolved from trial and error and OJT making match grade barrels, consultation from other premier barrelmakers and also toolmakers in the related manufacturing industries, and a lot of real time testing studying degradation of tapered and parallel surfaces(throat wear).  Have taken the man hours at work and home to research various lapping compounds made by people who make the top lapping gear for a living, and through their technical and engineering departments, sampled various grit types and sizes and mediums and have settled on the one that works the quickest and leaves the best finish using a lead cast rotary lap.  

Bottom line is for any newbies I take abrasives in the bore rather seriously, perhaps too seriously for the guy trying to get his factory barrel to snuff. The degree which I judge is because every barrel I make or have ever made has someones name on it..I don't make 200 barrels a day.  Just one at a time..

later

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 19:53:12 (ZULU)


You guys that use all this bore paste and stuff to clean thier rifles have waaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands.  In all my years of shooting (a few) all I've ever used is Bore cleaner, brushes and patches.  Yeah you should use some Sweets or something everynow and then  but jeeze.  If I remember right the USMC did a study of rifle cleaning and they found that excessive cleaning actually harmed the rifles more than helped.  Oooops I lied.  I also have a bore snake that I pull through every 20 rounds or so when I am shooting a bunch at one time..if I remember to.  

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Mt Ida, AR, US of A - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 20:33:33 (ZULU)



JR; just keep it coming. I'll tell you when I've had enough.:0) When I grow up I wanna know about half what you know about barrels.

I gotta say I don't lap my barrels or use compound in any of em. If they go bad I get another barrel and leave the finish to the maker.

Just bust the copper as good as I can and go back to shootin. I get about as much life out of mine as anybody..

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Friday, May 20, 2005, at 20:38:07 (ZULU)


Glock country:

Earlier it was mentioned that there is an upgrade follower for 10-rd 9mm Glock magazines which address some intermittent function/feeding issues.  Since there are still folks in jurisdictions where they are limited by law to 10-rd mgazines, here is what I learned:

The recommended follower upgrade for pre-JANUARY 2002 10 rd Glock magazines is the "9mm3" marked follower.  Of course, Glock has discontinued production of this part, so they're almost impossible to find.  The one they make now is marked "9mm4", which my sources say are *incompatible* with the pre-January 2002 units.

I successfully purchased some 9mm3 followers from a fellow in Florida who sells factory Glock parts.  He still has some 9mm3 followers left, which he is selling for $US5.00 each.  n.b he sells the 9mm4 followers which are current production for $2.50 each.

He didn't want to get involved in international exports (I can't really blame him), so I had to receive thru a 3rd party.

He can be reached at:

M O C . O O H A Y @ K C I R T A P K W J

(reversed and spaced to defeat auto-address harvesters)

             \\

If anyone is interested, I can email them a scan of his price list as a still-image attachment in a response email

(.JPG, .GIF, .TIFF or .PDF - I'll have to see what pops out of my scanning software).  I don't have a web page or I would put it up there.

Offer good only to the first 8 requests.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, May 20, 2005, at 23:42:55 (ZULU)


HOUSTON GUN SHOW / RELIANT CENTER

AmericanSnipers.org will have a booth inside somewhere ...

Will have our trinkets for sale ... Coins, pins, bracelets, dogtags.

Stop by and say hello.

Brian K. Sain

AmericanSnipers.org

Brian K. Sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 00:04:47 (ZULU)


Hey Roster Hogs,

I am looking for a good dope book. The one that was issued was a marine dope book that was made for a single weapon entry. I Am going to be taking a minimum of 4 possibly 5 sniper rifles when we return incountry. I would perfer everything in 1 book but if I have to go with multiple I will as long as the book is OUTSTANDING with a place so everything that a sniper could possibly want to log can be with out jumping out ones buttocks to do it. Also Size is also an issue, the smaller the better, though this is flexible if everything else is inside.

Thanks agian, for the help

TM

Morgue Email this member See this member's profile
SD, CA, - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 01:37:05 (ZULU)


SALUTE MY BRETHERN!

   ""BOHICA""

 It has been Years since I have Posted on this Site. Just after SANDBOX I (Desert Storm) I believe. I was a 1SG/Chief of Firing Battery for an 8" SP Battery.  Supporting Elements of the 24th (MECH)ID on My Left and 1st INF ID on My right: I was FIST (Fire Support Team) for Grenada and Panama for 105mm Batteries with the 82nd. I retired 06 June 2000 after 25 Years, 8 Months and 26 Days, But Who's Counting:

  To cases gentlemen:  I have been out of the loop for some time and I am in need of Information:  I am currently with a VFW POST that is looking to sponsor Military Units and Individuals currently Deployed to Iraq,A'stan and other locations, I believe that there are only 135 or so Countries:  Anyone here that knows of a Unit that is way the Hell out there that needs some goodies sent to them please respond to this line or to  E9CSM@hotmail.com subject line "VFW".  Recommendation on type and quantity of Goodies is also welcomed. I wish I could say that the Goodies are Match Grade M1A's, Spotting Scopes and Lazer Range Finders.    However, Leatherman type tools, Wetnaps, Powdered Gatorade and Kool-Aid will have to Do. SORRY !

God Bless !

Keep Fighting the Good Fight!

"TOP"

"TOP" HUMPHREYS Email this member See this member's profile
Waynesboro, Virginia, USA - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 01:43:31 (ZULU)


TOP: Check these guys out ... AmericanSnipers.org

Run by SWAT snipers supporting military snipers. Totally Legit.

BK

AmericanSnipers.org

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 02:15:41 (ZULU)


Hogs - good evening all.

Off Topic, but want to celebrate:  My wife, Kim, retired USMC Major,  Graduated George Mason University this evening with a Master's Degree in Technology Management.

RAFFLE TOPIC - WE ARE DOWN TO 22 UNPAID TICKETS. OF THOSE - 11 CURRENTLY STAND AS UNPAID (THE OTHER 11'S OWNERS HAVE PRIORITY MAIL INBOUND).  IF THE 11 TICKET NUMBERS LISTED BELOW DO NOT GET PAID IN TOMORROW'S POSTAL MAIL - THEY WILL GO UP FOR GRABS - PAYPAL ONLY PLEASE.....

Here are the tickets that will go up for grabs if they are not paid for in tomorrow's postal mail:

2005.04.25.014

2005.04.25.150

2005.04.25.225

2005.04.25.226

2005.04.25.295

2005.04.25.345

2005.04.25.479

2005.04.25.480

2005.04.25.525

2005.04.25.526

2005.04.25.527

thanks all - The plan is to have the drawing THIS SUNDAY :))

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 02:39:51 (ZULU)


Ken, congrats to your wife... she should start up an ISP now <g>

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 02:55:19 (ZULU)


Ken

congrat's on your wife. That is a wonderful achievement. I know you are proud of her.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 03:13:20 (ZULU)


Brian

What is the date on the Houston Gun Show. Its not to far from home. What's the scoop on the parking down there as well.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 03:21:48 (ZULU)



Ken M:  I wasn't around here when you got back so you may have already gone over all this.  If you can't - or don't care to - post this info publicly, I'll delete this post.  

How long were you in the field?  What kinds of missions did you have?  Were you in a two-man team?  What size of enemy elements did you observe or engage?  How far away were they?  What were lighting conditions like?  What were they doing when you observed or engaged them?  Were they operating in populated areas?  Did you have indirect fire or air support capabilities?  How were enemy soldiers equipped?  How were they dressed?

You said that you were dissatisfied with your capacity to inflict multiple casualties and that you would have preferred a select-fire or semi-automatic weapon.  Which one(s) that are available anywhere would you have preferred?  What ammo?  If you were able to spec out a rifle for this purpose, what would you tell them to build?

Major Kim:  Good work.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 05:02:50 (ZULU)


Way to go Major Kim!!!!!!!! Woooooo Hooooo!!!!!!

Sleepy Bolt, Out!

Bolt Email this member See this member's profile
getting moldy in..........., NC, - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 10:07:08 (ZULU)


Hello again folks,

Are there many F-Class afficionados here?  

This came up in a discussion with myself in my sleep this morning, or so I was told. I was wondering if anyone has considered a front rest incorporating a v-block to rest the stock, which would include leveling adjustment and lateral tweaking, with the bottom of the stock designed to match a v..And also a vertically adjustable slightly swivel and lock rear v-block(machinists think of a machinists jack), with the bottom of the stock designed to match.  Quickly put pencil to paper on the stock design, think I'll have a word with Ian Robertson..The material I was considering for the block would be a type of polyurethane which is slightly dampening, similar to rubber in that respect but much harder so holds it's form.  A bit of sex wax and youre set..

The reason I was thinking v-block, other than it is the most solid and consistent type workholding fixture, was you can use an included angle which can be incorporated into regular non f class type stocks which won't be too bulky or flat bottomed and uncomfortable to shoot offhand as well, and wont need a boat oar of a stock to compete with rest if you want..

Just a thought anyway..

JR

JR Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 12:47:19 (ZULU)


Major Kim,

Good show.  Congratulations on a job well done.

Doc

Doc Holloway Email this member See this member's profile
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 13:17:07 (ZULU)


It seems the military has dropped the 6.8 spc and the 6.5 grendel and is going with the FN SCAR in 223 and 308.

http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/scar_h.jpg

TonyY Email this member See this member's profile
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 13:43:33 (ZULU)


re: JR concept of new F-class front rest

I'm not saying it won't work, but how is your proposed front rest superior to a Harris bipod and a Pod-Loc?

If the rubber feet of the Harris are an issue, a plastic runner (Frisbee or equiv) or Pod-Paws could address that.

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/PodLoc.asp

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/PodPaw.asp

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 15:25:54 (ZULU)


Good afternoon Hogs -- HERE'S THE RAFFLE STATUS.... WE HAVE 7 UNACCOUNTED FOR TICKETS.... 4 DISAPPEARED A FEW MINUTES AGO,

THESE NUMBERS REMAIN OPEN:

2005.04.25.345

2005.04.25.479

2005.04.25.480

PAYPAL ONLY - NO POSTAL MAIL.... FIRST EMAIL IN GETS HOW EVER MANY OF THEM THEY WANT @ 25.00 EACH.....

IF ANY OF YOU OWN THESE TICKETS -- UHH...WELL - YOU BETTER HAVE PAYPAL AND GET TO IT QUICK.... I'M SURE THESE WILL GO THIS AFTERNOON... AND WON'T IT BE A BITCH IF THE WINNING TICKET WAS ONE THAT WAS FORFIETED...LOL...

FUTURE RAFFLES (DONE BY ME ANYWAY) WILL BE PAY AS YOU REGISTER... NO MORE PAY LATER STUFF.....WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT - AS WE ALWAYS SEEM TO HIT OUR TICKET COUNTS....

TAKE CARE ALL -- ALMOST DONE....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 18:27:37 (ZULU)


Howdy Gents. Considering dusting off my win 308 this whitetail season. Have not touched her in several years. Considering looking at the Hornady SST tipped bullets. Anyone shot these? I have used BTSP in the past pretty effectively in 06. She's a semi auto. Thinking of hand loading with these. Any suggestions. Already have a pretty good scope mounted with drop compensater. Or do you think I would be better going with factory loads. Sort of open for ideas. Now my shots may vary. Ranging from 40 to 285 yards. Brush and hard lighting.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 19:02:59 (ZULU)


Ok it's been a busy week.  I have a new rookie right out of the police academy.  Sometimes it's more work to hold them back and teach them not everything needs to be "damn the torpedos full speed ahead" all time.  And how come when you have a rookie it's time for all the complicated odd ball stuff to happen anyway.  I haven't gotten off work on time in 2 weeks.  Atleast he is squared away and easy to teach.

As far as gun handling skills go I do a little teaching for the county regional staff around here.  There is a huge difference in draftees and volunteers.  An example is in AR15 training.  When we get volunters it a piece of cake.  They are motivated and want to learn.  They follow directions and really pay attention.  Draftees not so much.  Some are good students but none have the motivation factor to really excell like the officer that begged to go to class.  On the draftee classes we concentrate more on safety and handling then we have to do on volunter classes because we need to.  I fully understand the most of the draftees will probably never take the rifle out in the field and maybe never take it out of the locker, so we just want to make sure they know how to safely and properly load/unload it and not AD.  With the volunteers we get into a little higher speed stuff even in the basic class because the learning curve seems a little higher.  I suspect this is the same problems with the military training too.  Some are eager to learn firearms and put the effort into it.  Others are learning because they were ordered to and really could care less. Those attitudes will carry on for their whole career unless they get a wake up call and survive it

BKS- you're so right about the note pad being used more then the gun.  Some cops only take the pistol out of the holster during the quartely quals and only clean it if we supply the cleaning gear.  They become paper flatfoots and only care about the reports or how to get out of them.  This really creates a bad complacency.  I can't remember how many times I've seen complete opposite reactions at scenes.  At the same call some cops are standing there looking like tourists and completely un-prepared for what might happen while other cops are going tactical...ready, willing and able to do battle if needed.  I think you know which ones piss me off.

Cleaning Country- I'm not getting into the actual procedures because everyone has their own variation.  After spending some time with the guys in the KG (KG gun Kote) booth at the the IWA show I tried their K-11 copper remover.  It cleans about as good and maybe a little better than Butches.  It's water based and bio friendly too...no gas out or M40 mask needed.  It might be worht a try I'll be using it for a while I think.

Paul Castle and CAR training-  my beat partner just when to a week long class at CAR.  He came back very enthused with the program.  The concept is very different then the traditional styles.  My partnet thought the CAR system had great applications in CQB, search  or sudden encounters.  He said the whole staff at CAR were very well versed, safe and didn't teach like a god but were an equal that wanted to pass on knowlege.  They even drove him to and from the hotel every day...now that's service.

1911 woes-  My boss bought a Philipine made 1911 copy...I know, I know.  He asked me to put a trigger and ambi safety on it for him and I said "sure no problem".  It sure looked GI enough....WELL IT ISN"T"  virtually everything had to be reworked just so I would let it out of the shop so to speak.  The trigger oppening in the frame was not square,  the mag release had a hole in the casting and a GI one was to big for the hole in the frame.  The cut outs in the frame for the trigger bow were to far forward resuling in about 1/8" play in the trigger before it engaged the sear/disconnector.  The grip bushings were were some odd thread size and all stripped out.  Brownells oversize bushings fixed that.  The sear and disconnector didn't even start to spec out right so to the trash they went.  Overall what a POS and I've put mondo work into it.  I should finish it up this weekend.  It will have a Ed Brown ambi safety, Kings trigger, GI sear and disconnetor, GI mag relese,lots of mods to the receiver and some other extras.  I'm going to finish the frame in Stainless Gun Kote for a two tone look.  I think it will be the nicest PI 1911 I know of.  Moral of the story... spend the extra $100 bucks and atleast get a basic Springfield.

Ok I've got to go back to helping the 9 year old on his school project on lava...gotta love lava =)

Take care,

Joe S.                  

Joe S. Email this member See this member's profile
Dago, Kali, US of A - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 19:29:30 (ZULU)


Joe S - re: draftees vs volunteers.

I believe it was Jeff Cooper who summarized the issue best:

Non-dedicated personel.

                 \\

The folks that want to be there and are interested in learning what you can teach are going to quickly acheive what may be impossible for the draftees.

Given the candidate pool available to law enforcement today, I would expect that a depressing large percentage of recruits are not going to be interested in acheiving anything but the bare minimum competence in firearm handling.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 20:03:21 (ZULU)


re: Philipine copy of 1911.

Probably hand-made in a shop one step up from a guy with a block of steel and a file.  They can probably do some amazing work but parts interchangability would be non-existant.

Probably not unlike Darra Adam Khel in Pakistan on the Afgan border near the Khyber Pass where they make copies of most man-portable firearms, and sometimes test-fire them into the air outside the shops.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 20:21:14 (ZULU)


Joe S

From the sound of your week the lava is a welcome relief. That 1911 is going to be a bear. You may have to machine some parts to get it to work. Today was spent teaching my 5 year old grand daughter to plant tomatoes. Had to tell a lady this week she had a terminal liver disease. Not a good week for me. Simple things and family on the weekend are good.

Zane

Zane B Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 23:35:02 (ZULU)


Zane we tried some SST's on Audads out in N.M. Last year and they didn't show us much. Took three to get him in the sack with Mag cartridges. Although their accuracy is good I'd suggest you stay with Nosler particians or Speer Gran Slam's or even conventional Hornady Spires if you can still find any for fairly large game. Just one experience but it was pretty disappointing.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Saturday, May 21, 2005, at 23:49:31 (ZULU)


Brogers

Woooo...... Those SST's don't sound very good. I had read a little on them but have never shot any. What good is accuracy if what you are shooting does not go down. Thanks for the feedback. Saves me some money, headache and chacing through the brush. I have used Spear BTSP in my A3. Now Bambie last year looked like he was hit with a brick and exit wound was the size of my fist. Maybe I need to stick with the the BTSP in the 308. Now they frag like the dickens about 4" in and really frag if they hit bone. Tears the mess out of the internal organs and dumps most all the energy in the animal. Thanks a bunch. Think I will stay away from plastic. I will look at the others you suggested too.

Zane

Zane B Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 00:37:50 (ZULU)


HOGS - OKAY - ONE TICKET LEFT... PAYPAL ONLY  - WHO WANTS IT.....

WHEW!!!! YA'LL ARE MAKIN' ME WORK FOR THIS ONE :)

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
nokesville, va, usa - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 01:32:03 (ZULU)


Zane - re: .308 projectile selection

Unless you're shooting at fairly extreme hunting range, conventional softpoints in .308 Win will do just fine with whitetail deer.

The Nosler partitions are popular for hunting because they'll expand but not fragment so readily.  Typically will produce an exit wound, which simplifies tracking.

The Nosler Ballistic Tips are designed to expand, but some folks think they are a bit too much of a good thing (lot of meat damage).

The upside is that a hit in a vital zone will usually result in short travel distance after the game animal is hit.

If you've done a lot of handloading then you should be able to make reliable handloads for hunting purposes.  If you're new to handloading suggest finding a factory loading you like and use that.  Federal sells a 165 SP loading in .308 Win that would do just fine, for example.  Load # P308C, loaded with 165g Sierra GameKing BTSP. Recommended for MEDIUM GAME: Designed for maximum effectiveness on light, thin-skinned game such as antelope, mule deer, white-tale deer and black bear.

As near as I can tell Hornady's plastic tipped projectiles are either designed for varmint or accuracy usage, not for terminal performance on larger game animals.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 02:06:02 (ZULU)


Rod

I think your right. What you got me thinking about is the 150gr BT Spear hot core spitzers I use in the A3. They are the same bullet for the 308. Might drop those in a few hulls and see how she shoots. I have had good luck with those over the years. They frag just enough to do internal damage and make a massive exit wound. Might just get a few partitions too and see how they fly. I will need to settle on one or the other. Get an exact powder measure and zero from there. I don't like chasing my game. I'm a very lazy hunter. Upsets me when they run off. Always feel like i made a bad shot.

Zane

Zane B Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 02:54:44 (ZULU)


Hi Guys, just wanted to say hello and check in, been busy as heck for weeks.. was over in the UK last week picking up me new lathe and an engraving machine.. nice little Colchester lathe, just the righ size for rifle work. Been building a shed to house all the crap thats in my workshop and shouldn't be(like bikes,slegdes, top boxes, antique sewing machines and a ton of stuff Elizabeth didn't need any more when i demobed.)

Any way, hope you hawgs are all fit and well.

Hunting bullets.. i tried the SST's and the weren't as accurate as the interlocks id used previously in the Hornady light mag ammo and ive had same reports from most folk who have treid em. Try the Nostler partition or stick with the interlocks for game up to white tail size,,

Heck hunting season has been open since May 1st and i haven't been out once!! thats how busy i am !!

Pete

Peter Lincoln Email this member See this member's profile
D - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 11:30:37 (ZULU)


Zane, now you are firmly into my area of expertise. Hornaday SST, only really good at 200-300 yds in the 308. anything inside that and they shred, over that and they lose their ass. I hunt for a living and have tried about everything there is, and my clients have brought along everything I have missed. My personal favs are Swift A Frames, but they are a bit hard for white tails. Nosler Partitions are very accurate and excellent performers. Sierra Game kings are very accurate but somewhat prone to bullet failure, especially at close range. Nosler Accubonds have done quite well for me so far, but I have not tested huge amounts of them yet. One of the best I have seen yet is the Lapua Mega Soft. Excellent terminal performance and very good accuracy. My absolute favorite bullets are Rhinos, manufactured in South Africa. Brutally efficient design (expands to approx. 1.25" in 308) with a solid shank for deep penetration. Accurate as well, my 375H&H put 15 shots into 5.75" at 600m with the 380gr offering from them. Very pricey, but worth it for game larger than white tail if'n you ever venture that way.

Rob

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 12:45:58 (ZULU)



The Hornady plastic tips as far as I can tell are fairly good for tearing things up whether man or beast but they are a bit short in the penetration department. We lost more coyotes in the last couple of years than we stopped with 55 v-max. The secret even on varmints is to use a fairly large bullet compared to what you usually need lemme put it this way.

Hornady V-max.

.223  50 grain to 55 Prairie Dogs only.

.223  60 to 69 grain limited coyote round with side shots only.

.243  75 grain does yotes,bobcats side yotes nicely.down like rock.

.243  85-87 Antelope  cougar round, yotes are down any angle.    

.243 100 grains too heavy for the twist poor accuracy.

.308 168 to 175 dead yote every time. Over kill.

.308 168 to 175 OK for very small deer. So. Tex White tails sim.

.309 168 to 180 White tail Kansas class. Don't even think about it.

.308 168 to 190 Elk, Mule Deer. (how well do you like to track?)

Nosler Partician

.270 130-140 Grain. White tail to Cow Elk historically good.

.308 150-168 Pronghorn, White tail any size. Toast.

.308 180 Elk  It will barely get you there. Audad will go down.

.300 WSMand Ultra. Don't let him fall on you.

Any of these will work on the two legged stuff. The 55 Vis good for CQ because it doesn't penetrate walls into the next apt or trailer so bad. The .308 stuff will kill the hostage if it hits him. The Perp won't be at the trial. Based on my best guess comparing it to game and long past experiences with bullets of another time.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 13:18:27 (ZULU)


Good morning hogs --- all tickets have been accounted for - stay tuned or watch your email (ticket holders)..... we'lll have two winning numbers later today.....

take care all - and thanks !!!

Ken

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
NOKESVILLE, VA, USofA - Under God - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 13:26:10 (ZULU)


Anybody have the length of the threaded barrel shank for the flash suppressor on the AR-15/M16?  I measured an M4gery at 5/8".  This leaves  1/8"+ of free space between the muzzle of the barrel and the interior face of the flash suppressor.  Not real good tolerances.  As you could expect, the empty space was rapidly filled with an interesting mixture of copper fragments & powder residue.  Copper fragments were much larger than I'd have expected.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 13:52:15 (ZULU)


Like Bill says, on elk you have to pick your shots with the 180 Gr .308 NP.  With the newer powders it duplicates the old 180gr/2700fps loads for the mighty .30-'06.  If you want a one-size-fits-all .308 hunting load, that's as good as any I know.

If you want to see something impressive, hit an elk amidships with a .338 250NP/2700fps.  Almost no meat damage either.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 14:12:57 (ZULU)


Just decided to "pop in' for a second and post.

you all have a great summer, I'm going back to the bunker for more fun and frolic..................

Chao!

peteR Email this member See this member's profile
Big City, By-Gawd, USA! - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 16:43:39 (ZULU)


Gents,

Been busy and remiss in posting lately (OK, everybody uses that excuse!).

Bullet Performance: Your gettin in my territory with the .308 Winchester. I don't hunt dangerous game(well, there was a time I chased wimmen), so can't comment on big bore performance. Looks like Mr. Martin has that sewn up, anyway. Those Rhino's sound like the cat's meow. Would love some data on them and to know if they are available stateside. I digress.

I primarily hunt deer and elk for big game. Grew up using a 30/30 and then a custom .303 Britsh. The 30/30 worked well on our blacktails, but the .303 with Remington 180 gr. RN soft points was like a lighting bolt. Killed a goodly amount blacktail bucks with it. I have a tremendous respect for the cartridge. Never did handload for it.

The majority of my deer hunting has been with .308 based cartridges. The .243 works, but made me uneasy about performance and never did trust it. Almost lost an animal when a Sierra Game King came apart prematurely. I now use the .243 for varmints only.

The 7mm/08 is a fine blacktail cartridge. I've only killed one large buck with it using Nosler's 140 gr Ballistic Tip. Result was a broadside shot, destroying the heart and exiting. Animal went down in a couple seconds.

With the .308 I've taken more animals that all the others combined. I've settled on the 165 gr Ballisic Tip and it seems to work well. Have yet to recover one. The 150 grainers came apart, but did the job. Still, this made me move to the heavier bullet. I would not use Ballistic tips for any game larger than Whitetail deer. Then only with frontal or broadside shots. For pushing the envelope for the .308 I prefer Nosler's 180 gr. Partition. It's worked for me, but I really don't like using it on anything larger than mule deer.

My all time favorite cartidge is the .35 Whelan Ackley Improved. Mine is a custom and I get an honest 2,600 FPS with 250 gr. bullets. Some serious medicine and not far behind the .338 Win Mag in performance. Also, I have the ability to go up to 300 grain bullets, if need be. Generally, I use Hawk 250 grain RN bullets. VERY good terminal performance. Am hoarding 5 boxes of old Hornady 275 gr. RN's that were given to me.

Will be building a .375 H&H or .404 Jeffery when we get relocated and my new lathe gets installed...:-)

All for now, work calls...

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 17:37:30 (ZULU)



I have an L42 enfield which, unfortunately, is lacking a scope. Does anyone know where I can find the proper scope mount or scope with mount?

Rodney Smith Email this member See this member's profile
Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 18:49:41 (ZULU)


How long were you in the field?<<<<<<

We normally planned for 96hrs, but would extract if compromised or if we shot someone, which generally resulted in either compromise or you just wasting your time being cold and tired because the savages would go elsewhere for a few weeks.

>>>What kinds of missions did you have?<<<<

Counter mortar, counter IED, R&S, raid support, all sorts.  Most successful was counter IED/counter ambush stuff.  Platoon killed about 50 some savages, best guess.  30+ stepped on.

>>>> Were you in a two-man team?<<<<

Nope, we ran 5 man teams for sustainability, problem then becomes you have too much footprint and the savages get suspicious.  We’d split into 2 and 3 man elements for better concealment, but then we lacked comm. gear to support this.

 >>>>What size of enemy elements did you observe or engage?<<<<<

Wildly varying.  During a vehicle movement we got into it with two +/-10 man squad sized elements in a chance contact hasty ambush.  One of the line companies had a platoon sized patrol base attacked by 60+ savages.  Normally we’d engage 3-6 man groups setting IED’s and singular scouts who were doing pre-emplacement recon, usually from vehicles.  One team from the platoon ran into three separate chance contacts during one night, it was the never ending break contact drill for them.

>>> How far away were they?<<<<

Close engagement with M40A3 was less than 10m, furthest M40A3 kills were 720yds, longest attempt (unrecovered bodies/no confirm) was 880yds.  Longest connection(bodies recovered) with Barret was 980yds, but counter mortar fights involved much longer shots with no chance for BDA.  Average was about 350-600yds.

>>> What were lighting conditions like?<<<<

Good light, no night shots with the sniper rifles, only gunfights.  Most enemy activity was just after sunup and just before sundown.

>>>What were they doing when you observed or engaged them?<<<

Laying IED’s, spotting mortars(that’s a fun one to justify), other stuff that I’m not going to get into because the ROE’s are sensitive.

>>>> Were they operating in populated areas? <<<<<

Yes.  I actually prefer urban to greenside.

>>>Did you have indirect fire or air support capabilities? <<<<

Notionally yes.  Practically no.  HQ always said it was there, doctrine demands lots of use of supporting arms.  Call for it on the radio, and it never comes.

>>>How were enemy soldiers equipped?  How were they dressed?<<<<<

Savages in civilian clothes, they carried a high percentage of PKM’s and RPD’s, they like belt fed stuff.  Not so many RPG’s in our area, they are heavy and the fools miss a lot.

>>>You said that you were dissatisfied with your capacity to inflict multiple casualties and that you would have preferred a select-fire or semi-automatic weapon.<<<<

Yes, a suppressed SR-25 would have done great things.  Select fire is not needed, but stroking a bolt while trying to hit four or five MF’s piling into a car at 700yds is tough.  The first guy is cake, after that it’s a rat fuck trying to get your SAW gunner on target, trying to disable the auto, trying to hit the guys you can’t see behind cover, etc etc.  All while the wind is doing 15mph, and moving closer is not an option because they’re in and out in less than 5 minutes.  Too fast for artillery BTW.  

>>>>  Which one(s) that are available anywhere would you have preferred?  What ammo?  If you were able to spec out a rifle for this purpose, what would you tell them to build?<<<<

Perfect world, I’d like an SR-25 in 284 Win shooting 175SMK’s at 2800fps from a suppressed 20” barrel and it ought to weigh about 12-13lbs, no more than 14 tops.  3.5-10x M3 is fine.  

CDC, stand by for incoming E-mail with attachments.  S/F...Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 20:37:10 (ZULU)


Rhino's are available in the US thru a guy in Texas that imports them. For details on the bullets themselves and contact info for Bill (the importer) cut and paste: http://www.rhinobullets.co.za/

I just tried them and the site looks like it is down for updating them, so you may have to check back.

Robert Martin Email this member See this member's profile
PSL, FL, US - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 20:44:12 (ZULU)


WR Moore-  The shank is 5/8" I just went and pulled a flash-hider on one of my M16A1's and an M4.  I mic'ed it a .640 from the flat on the barrel to the end of the muzzel.  The is some open area between the front of the muzzel and the back of the flash-hider (inside). I'm sure there's a reason for it but I have never been told what it is.  

Rod- "Non dedicated personel"  You hit it bro and your comments are a bullseye.

The "PI 1911" saga.  Well most of the mods I had to make were able to be done with the hand tools I have.  So it just took a little time.  I got lucky on the mag catch. The hole in the right side of the frame was incorrect to allow a GI catch.  The cut out for the catch portion (the ear to rear so to speak) was too small and I fixed that with a small stone on a variable power Dremel.  The the large hole portion had a flat spot in it.  Same stone/Dremel did the job.  But then I found out they hadn't cut the hole through the frame (left side where the button portion sticks out) deep enough to allow the catch to seat all the way and it binded.  Well luck of all luck I dug through some of my dads old bits (he was a machinist after he finished with the  Navy) and found the perfect reamer...job done in 5 minutes.

All was ready for the re-finish of the PI 1911.  I bead blasted all that I was going to gun kote and started spraying.  As it was baking Gaby walked in and asked what I was cooking.  Due to complete fear and the fight or flight syndrome I just stamered at her.  In a few seconds all I heard was a loud "you're baking a fu*#ing gun in my brand new Bosch oven".  Well as I managed to get sputter out the words "it's was almost done" I noticed the nicely bead blasted grip safety still sitting on my bench...of course I missed it and that meant round two of the gun Kote.  I sure am glad she got a Bosche oven it really holds the temp perfect =)

And yes I think almost every part in it was made by hand.  Next week we'll see how it does at the range.  All in all it has been a great learning experiance.

Stay safe,

Joe S.          

Joe S. Email this member See this member's profile
Dago, CA, US of A - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 20:56:35 (ZULU)


HOGS - WEEEE HAVEEE SOME WINNNNERRRRRSSSSS.....

1ST PLACE, TICKET NUMBER 227, HELD BY:  Russ Eagan.  

Russ Elected to take the SCLE #1 Rifle.

2ND PLACE, TICKET NUMBER 343, HELD BY:  Dwight Cleland.

Dwight will receive the Armament Technologies Rifle Kit.

THANKS ALL :)

WE GENERATED SOME GOOD FUNDS FOR SOME OUTSTANDING CAMPAIGNS....

Ken Hunter Email this member See this member's profile
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 22:17:19 (ZULU)


Thanks gents for all the info. I am in a peck of trouble. Well it seems that the wife has been killing snakes left and right around the house here lately. She has got the feeling that since she can reduce the amount of reptile population -- she is going to try and hunt deer with me this year. Guess what just happened to my vintage winchester 308. Yep. Had it out and she said. "Oh what a beautiful gun". Its an old but very accurate gun. I am going to try and track down those rhino bullets. They sound pretty good. If I can't I will most likely go with the nosler. So I have got to get the gun zeroed in and teach her to shoot in the next couple of months. I have got a ton of 308 practice ammo around here somewhere. Time for a few more grey hairs. Oh boy??? Thanks to all. Wish me luck. I'll need all I can get.

Zane

Zane Bennett Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, May 22, 2005, at 22:17:59 (ZULU)


Congradulations to the rifle winners!! Also a big thank you to those that entereed and didn't win, better luck in the future! And finally thanks to Ken H. for putting it all together and running with it!!

Marius, Scott, Pete, Sarge

Sniper Country Council

Sarge Email this member See this member's profile
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 00:36:58 (ZULU)



Ken, THANKS!!!! for all your hard work in running the Riffle Raffle.

Sharon

(Even if I didn't win...){edited for my horrible spelling)}

Larry J. Porter Email this member See this member's profile
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 01:43:17 (ZULU)


Rats!! We get home from church and I see a phone number with an unknown area code on the caller I.D. and I quickly check my answering machine and.....its a salesman.

Congratulations to the winners and thanks to Ken (and the SC staff) for putting it on. Same time next month....right? ;))

--

BKS,

Got my americansnipers.org challenge coin Friday. REAL nice. Later the same day, I was at Hastings and was thumbing thru the magazine rack and noticed the latest SOF magazine. It had an interesting article about Challenge Coins and its origin. Also included the adopt-a-sniper coin. Well worth the read.

--

Zane,

Been in more tornados than I got time to discuss. That's the way it is out here in the West ;))

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, United States of America - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 01:45:40 (ZULU)


Zane - re: teaching your wife to shoot

Just to mention the obvious, starting off with a .22 LR will help avoid developing flinch and be cheaper.

You may also want to consider having someone else you trust provide the initial instruction.  Providing instruction to a spouse or close relative can sometimes be a strain on that relationship.

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 02:55:49 (ZULU)


Chuck Hunt,

I have been practicing with that carbine! Man..that thing is something else. Went to the gunshow today in Wichita Falls to try to get some more food for it. Mistake..nothing there worth looking at, but did buy some Winchester 9mm cheap. That will keep the oldest daughter shooting for a day or two with the pistol.

BTW..it has been blooded. Went out to check cattle evening before last, cow was having a calf, and low and behold, a yote was beside the pond dam about 175 yards away. Hornady 55 grain TAP round did the job extremely well.

SNIPERQUEST - Get ready ya'll...about 3 weeks away. This is going to be FUN.

Bobby Whittington Email this member See this member's profile
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 03:02:08 (ZULU)


JR, Ref F-Class Stock

All of us here in Memphis use the Harris swivel pod.

Have you looked at the Sinclair F-Class pod, it looks interesting, but somewhat bulky, it appears to clamp on the weapon, I have reservations about the process of leveling the legs, but it doesn't seem to be a bad attempt.

You may wish to look at the Socom bi-pod from Rock Creek barrels, it currently attaches to a pic rail, however you could mount a small rail, or a quick on/off with a throw lever, several are available.

The Socom is a new product that has both pan, and tilt, it may be the perfect pod for tactical carbine competition as well.

Most of the new formats require a high volume of fire at 300 yds. or so simulating, or in the real world, keeping the gunner on target without shifting all over the place.....just thinking out loud.

Scott (Cheese)

Scott Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 23, 2005, at 03:13:26 (ZULU)


Joe S- thanks much for your efforts and the info.  Cynic that I am, allowance for sloppy machinework comes to mind.  However, back in the early '80's I did a lot of work on muzzle devices and think the space may allow flash suppressor changes with little/no impact of POI. [and allow for sloppy machinework:)] Anyone with field experience please advise.

WR Moore Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 23, 2005, at 11:49:05 (ZULU)


Congratulations; Russ and Dwight.  Thanks Ken and tell the Professor we're all proud of her!. (I missed it the first time around!) Really good deal.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 23, 2005, at 14:18:19 (ZULU)


Ken M:  I have a few more questions.  Again, I'm not asking for anything sensitive.

>>Nope, we ran 5 man teams for sustainability, problem then becomes you have too much footprint and the savages get suspicious.  We’d split into 2 and 3 man elements for better concealment, but then we lacked comm. gear to support this.<<<

That does sound problematic.  The team leader went with the 3 man element, right?  How close were the elements to each other.  It seems like, unless the elements were pretty far apart, footprint would increase rather than decrease.  If there's no commo, you're screwed.  How were you equipped?  There was the M40A3, the SAW, and 3 '16s?  Any 203s?

And what was the deal on the SAW gunner?  He had an assistant gunner, right?  So they had to stay together.  The sniper and the spotter had to stay together, right?  So there's one Marine left with a '16.  Did he go with the SAW or did he act as security for the sniper team?  Without commo, it seems like coordinating movement and deployment of the two elements wouldn't be possible.  

>>>... but counter mortar fights involved much longer shots with no chance for BDA. <<<

How many of those did you run into?  What kind of mortars were they?  Were the rounds HE, frag, or what?  What were their targets?  Could you actually see the mortar crews?  If so, they seem awfully foolish.  A mortar is an indirect fire weapon, after all.  They initiated the action on their terms.  It seems like they should have sense enough to set the thing up in a covered - or at least concealed - position.  Who did you shoot?  The guy who drops the round in the tube seems like the easiest target, but he should be the lowest guy on their totem pole.  How many people did they have on the crew?  Could you identify the gun's head hoobie?  You said that you shot the spotter.  Was he easy to identify?  If I was doing it, I certainly wouldn't be sitting high on a conspicuous spot, casually dangling my feet over the wall with a map laid out, a cell-phone in one hand and a big black set of Tabascos in the other.

>>>I actually prefer urban to greenside.<<<<

So the locals were on your side?  Given that you had a five man team, it seems like you would be vulnerable to being set-up or having your mission blown by hostile locals.

>>HQ always said (indirect fire or air support capabilities) was there, doctrine demands lots of use of supporting arms.  Call for it on the radio, and it never comes.<<<

So you depended on your QRF?  Please tell me that you had a QRF.

>>>Select fire is not needed,...<<<<

I didn't mean that you would need full auto, but never mind that.

>>>... but stroking a bolt while trying to hit four or five MF’s piling into a car at 700yds is tough.  The first guy is cake, after that it’s a rat fuck trying to get your SAW gunner on target, trying to disable the auto, trying to hit the guys you can’t see behind cover, etc etc.  All while the wind is doing 15mph, and moving closer is not an option because they’re in and out in less than 5 minutes.<<<

You were there, and I wasn't.  You would know, and I wouldn't.  But it doesn't seem like your critical limitation would be stroking a bolt.  If you put a smooth bolt-knob on that rig, that goes as quickly and automatically as shifting from 2nd to 3rd in a F-150.  The problem seems like it would be that your magazine capacity is too small for that kind of work, and reloading requires too much of your attention.  Even with the efficient ammo management and loading tricks it is still ttooooosssllloooowwww.  Do you agree with that?

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 23, 2005, at 16:09:43 (ZULU)


Gents,

I'm pleased to see that my stellar luck is still holding....

Congrats to the rifle winners. Really would have like to have Kent's rifle...it already had good kharma on it!

Ken M, sounds like you folk are doing a darn good job. Can't vouch for mortar fire, but have been hit with the Russian B40's and Brazilian Astral's. The last I checked the Astral carried about 65 lbs of Octal B as an explosive charge. Frag from them has to be seen to be believed.

Rob, thanks for the information on the Rhino projo's. Will have to try some.

To you REAL snipers out there...anyone making specialty rounds for the .338 Lapua yet. Penetrators/Solids and something along the lines of the Raufous (sp) round?

All for now...duty calls.

Keep your head down, body armor on, and WY6!

Semper Fi,

Wes

Wes Howe Email this member See this member's profile
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 16:33:46 (ZULU)


re: .338 Lapua specialty rounds

No guarantee, but you might contact Hirsch Precision.

http://www.hirschprecision.com/

They're the Canadian importer for Lapua products.

They're doing stuff with .338 Lapua...

rod regier Email this member See this member's profile
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 17:15:58 (ZULU)


Congrats to the winners!

Rod -- Got several littel brush poppers that I can start her on. Ammo is cheaper to boot. I also saw the sparkle in her eyes with that 308. What I am banking on is that she is not going to like the wild side of things. I taught her to use a hand gun and she shoots a pretty tight group. Now we go to the woods to practice. A couple of weeks back we finished after about 1000 rounds. Was packing up. A big pack of wolves came through about 60 yds off. I have never seen anyone jump into an SUV so fast in all my life. She thought she was going to be dinner. Got me a good chuckle out of that one. I wanted to know if she wanted to go camping? She said "Hell no".

Zane

Zane B Email this member See this member's profile
Pointblank, Tx, - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 17:27:33 (ZULU)


Ken, let me add my thanks for the riffle.  Congrats to the winners.  My good???luck is still holding. :-)

HDR Email this member See this member's profile
OK, - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 17:49:34 (ZULU)



>>>>That does sound problematic.  The team leader went with the 3 man element, right?<<<<<

No, often not.  It's always METT-TSL, but usually we'd run the 3 man element as security and communications, sometimes putting up a field expedient antenna and the 2 man element would be the dedicated sniper/spotter moving into a more exposed FFP with better fields of fire.  

>>>How close were the elements to each other.  It seems like, unless the elements were pretty far apart, footprint would increase rather than decrease.<<<<

Depends on terrain and concealment/cover.  Footprint size is not as important as the availability of FFP's/harbor sites. If you have a good FFP/harbor site, where you can conceal yourself, the area you occupy is largely irrelevant.  OTOH, you can have the greatest FFP ever and if hadji walks on you because of his goats or dogs, it failed.  The best greenside FFP of the whole damned deployment got burned because of a damned bunch of goats.  Mr hadjigoatherder nearly ate our Claymore when he walked on us.

 

>>>>>If there's no commo, you're screwed.<<<<

Yep, we know this:)  Unfortunately, the job needs to be done regardless.  

>>>>How were you equipped?  There was the M40A3, the SAW, and 3 '16s?  Any 203s? <<<<

Normally 2 M40A3, 1 SAW, 1 M203, 4 M16A4's.  Everybody had an assault weapon, when you make contact at 0430 with some fools stumbling about setting up a roadside ambush, a M40A3 is worse than useless.  Thus a 16.5lb tankbar is NOT the ideal sniper rifle.

>>>>And what was the deal on the SAW gunner?  He had an assistant gunner, right?  So they had to stay together.<<<<

No, the SAW gunner is his own problem.  The SAW is an individual weapon.  The SAW makes breaking contact much easier.

>>>>> So there's one Marine left with a '16.  Did he go with the SAW or did he act as security for the sniper team? <<<<

No, we had a bunch of M16A4's; normally the RTO would have a plain M16A4, but not always.  Later we dropped to a four man team due to casualties and reorganization.

>>>>> Without commo, it seems like coordinating movement and deployment of the two elements wouldn't be possible. <<<<

Good SOP's, good contingency plans and good people and it's not all that hard.  Really sucks when the plan changes mid mission.  We sometimes had a PRC-148 for the forward element, but battery life sucks so we'd have comm. windows, so hopefully nothing happens where you need immediate comm..

>>>>How many of those did you run into?<<<<  What kind of mortars were they?  Were the rounds HE, frag, or what?<<<<

We got into the counter mortar fight maybe four or five times.  The mission was always there, but after we got our own 60mm mortars on site, the enemy got scarce.  Usually they use 60 or 82mm mortars from the back of a truck.  Usually frag/HE, but one of our CP¡¦s got hit with WP one time.  The hadjis are usually dumb as dirt and use whatever they have.  Results in lots of duds, getting shot at with ILLUM and that sorts of thing.  

>>>>> What were their targets?  Could you actually see the mortar crews?  If so, they seem awfully foolish.  A mortar is an indirect fire weapon, after all.<<<<

They targeted any fixed point where we setup.  We normally got into this out at our CP's on MSR Tampa.  Maj Joe and anybody else who¡¦s been there will know what I'm talking about.  They don¡¦t have the capability to shoot IDF in most cases. So they are limited to LOS operation in many cases, that's why it's critical to remove tall target reference points IVO any of your fixed positions; radio towers, power lines, smoke from the burn pit, etc etc.

>>>> They initiated the action on their terms.  It seems like they should have sense enough to set the thing up in a covered - or at least concealed - position.  Who did you shoot?  The guy who drops the round in the tube seems like the easiest target, but he should be the lowest guy on their totem pole.  How many people did they have on the crew?  Could you identify the gun's head hoobie? <<<<<

You shoot whoever you can see.  Many cases, all you can see at 1300m is the muzzle blast going up, in that case, you take the best educated guess shot you can, and hope the 50cal bullets plow through veg OK.  Crew was two or three guys, I guess.  This was often Achmed and his buddy who gets drunk and decides to shoot at the Americans, and that type of thing.

>>>>> You said that you shot the spotter.  Was he easy to identify?  If I was doing it, I certainly wouldn't be sitting high on a conspicuous spot, casually dangling my feet over the wall with a map laid out, a cell-phone in one hand and a big black set of Tabascos in the other. <<<<<

These folks are often stupid, and your best asset is the abilty to be undetected and just watch what¡¦s going on.  Try it sometime in an urban setting.  Heck, at nighttime, you'll probably be able to make some money selling peeper smut after a few days.  In the one case I set you, we watched this asshat and his buddy pointing towards the polling site, chattering on a cell phone, looking at his watch and generally acting suspicious for over 30 minutes.  When we heard the mortar rds coming in, we smoked them.  The mortar rds stopped coming.  It appears we guessed correctly.  I guess they could have been all excited that their guy was doing well at the polls, if so, TFB for them.  

>>>>So the locals were on your side? <<<<

Fuck no!  Locals are on nobody's side but their own.  Most self-centered mo******kers on earth.  Culturally, they are a very long shot forlorn hope for any type of self government.  Only sure thing is wipe the slate and start over.  I've always said the Mongols had the best plan for the ME, and I still feel that way.  Other than that we need to find some way to break down the tribalism and get them united nationally, historically, the only way to do that is LOTS of killing.  We lack the moral courage and historical awareness for that.

>>>>>Given that you had a five man team, it seems like you would be vulnerable to being set-up or having your mission blown by hostile locals. <<<<<<

It's all about finding the hides.  Locals were a very real problem, as were dogs.  I hate dogs.

>>>So you depended on your QRF?  Please tell me that you had a QRF. <<<<

QRF, what's a QRF?:)  We always had a notional QRF, but the Q part widely varied.  We rolled out strapped IOT not need the QRF because you could never count on it being there in less than 30-40 minutes.  That might as well be forever. Hey, it's a war, you take risks.  That's why you train.  I had good guys, with a little luck; I was comfortable taking on anything the enemy had in our zone.  OTOH, if you stumble into a prepared ambush, you're going to get torn up no matter how many you have.  

>>>>>You were there, and I wasn't.  You would know, and I wouldn't.  But it doesn't seem like your critical limitation would be stroking a bolt.  If you put a smooth bolt-knob on that rig, that goes as quickly and automatically as shifting from 2nd to 3rd in a F-150.  The problem seems like it would be that your magazine capacity is too small for that kind of work, and reloading requires too much of your attention.  Even with the efficient ammo management and loading tricks it is still ttooooosssllloooowwww.  Do you agree with that?<<<<<

Regardless of what the bolt gunners tell you, they are still slower than a gas gun, and you have the break position to use them, which is accentuated by some of the unorthodox positions you use out in real life.  Can you be fast, surely.  My ATL was real fast; we tagged two guys at 720 in about five seconds.  We knew that shot was coming however.  Times four or five though, you're still slower, especially on some assedup position you just cobbled together to hit some dude you just spotted off the move or something like that.  Yeah, having a twenty rd magazine would be nice too, probably a good enough system compared to a gas gun.  Problem is now you start getting into the dogmatic issues of whether a 'sniper' really needs all that ammo and such.  And folks start getting up in arms.  Me, I like having options and a SR-25/Mk11 type rifle would reduce the need to schlep an assault weapon about.  IMO, you're out there to kill the enemy, your targets are so few and far between you're not going to pass them up in favor of something "more important".  We wanted to do all sorts of "cool guy" kill the HVT stuff, but HQ will NEVER allow that sort of thing.  IMO, we ought to be doing Phoenix Program type stuff again, and the problem is everyone who can authorize that is far too scared to do it.  The folks we need to kill are not the folks who are going to take the actions where we can kill them under current ROE's.  They have well enough developed intel networks to where we are going to have to work a lot harder to capture them, vice killing them.  Raid packages have way too large a footprint to have much chance of success, this has been proven.  Every asshat in zone that's worth catching is so paranoid that every time you roll a motorized patrol out the gate they think you're coming for them, thus a raid has little chance of being successful compared to a sniper team because HVT's move all the damned time whenever they get scared.  BTDT, you can see this with the recent Zarkawi miss.  Hell, not even national assets have the OODA loop short enough to grab these guys on the roll all the time.  That's not a condemnation; it's just real life friction.  The guy in the Apache sees the HVT suspect, kill him.  They don't have 30mm 'detainment' ammo and neither do snipers. Trying for this detention bullshit is just wasting time and lives.  S/F...Ken M            

editted to clean up some format errors

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 20:14:00 (ZULU)


Ken M:

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

There is much to think about.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andys' Dad) Email this member See this member's profile
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 20:42:47 (ZULU)


A big thank you to Ken for all the work he put into the raffle. Congratulations to the winners. It is a great way to raise funds for worthy endeavors.

Fred Hartman Email this member See this member's profile
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Monday, May 23, 2005, at 22:12:54 (ZULU)


I guess everyday I get a little closer to being steadfast in my unrepentantcy  about my willingness to use the scorched earth policy over there. Do you think we should have waited until the smoke cleared before we started the rebuild?  Oh gosh no, we had to win their hearts and minds first!! Then when they saw how wonderful it felt to be free they would kiss the ground we walk on.  Lemme see now. Every time I fill my Jeep with $2.50 gasoline I think. We coulda made some real nice napalm with this.....

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 23, 2005, at 23:12:11 (ZULU)


Ken M,  Well said.  I peeked inside the intel part of the equation--so I might argue a point, but it would also pertain to areas south and east of yours, too.  Probably a wash, and certainly not for here.  But it would make for some interesting bar talk someday.

Speaking of someday:  I did the math recently, and realized that I hit my marks.  Time to retire and start part two of this life.  The short of it is:  I set criteria to continue, established an envelope to move towards other goals, and woke up one day right in the middle of my trigger points.  If it all pans out as I think it will, June 12, 2006 should be at or damn near my last day in army green.  

My O-6 will try to talk me out of this in the morning...I owe him an ear.  I doubt he can sway this analysis, though.  Time to move on!

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Monday, May 23, 2005, at 23:54:05 (ZULU)



Ken M:  >>>>Normally 2 M40A3, 1 SAW, 1 M203, 4 M16A4's.  Everybody had an assault weapon, when you make contact at 0430 with some fools stumbling about setting up a roadside ambush, a M40A3 is worse than useless.  Thus a 16.5lb tankbar is NOT the ideal sniper rifle.<<<<

Carry two rifles?  Screw all of that you can find, especially if one of them weighs more than a chain saw.  That plus ammo for both, spotter, binos, h20, frags, smoke, flares, radio, spare battery, 4 day's rations, 40mm ammo, claymores, commo wire,...what am I leaving out?  Naw, man, one rifle.  

>>>>The SAW is an individual weapon.<<<<

It came in after I left.  We used the M(aybe)-60.  It was crew-served.

>>>>The SAW makes breaking contact much easier.<<<<

It does sound like it would discourage untrained troops.

>>>>Good SOP's, good contingency plans and good people and (coordinating movement and deployment of the two elements is) not all that hard.  Really sucks when the plan changes mid mission. <<<<

That's the thing.  Who was it that said no plan survives first contact with the enemy?  Cest le guerre'.

>>>>Usually frag/HE, but one of our CP¡¦s got hit with WP one time.<<<<

WP scares me.

>>>>The hadjis are usually dumb as dirt and use whatever they have.  Results in lots of duds, getting shot at with ILLUM and that sorts of thing.<<<<

ILLUM?  That is truly funny.  

>>>They don¡¦t have the capability to shoot IDF in most cases. So they are limited to LOS operation in many cases, that's why it's critical to remove tall target reference points IVO any of your fixed positions; radio towers, power lines, smoke from the burn pit, etc etc.<<<<

No IDF capability for mortars?  Man, they are nothing like us.

>>>> Many cases, all you can see at 1300m is the muzzle blast going up, in that case, you take the best educated guess shot you can, and hope the 50cal bullets plow through veg OK.  Crew was two or three guys, I guess.  This was often Achmed and his buddy who gets drunk and decides to shoot at the Americans, and that type of thing.<<<<

50s start cruising through my position and my plans for the evening's entertainment would be subject to modification.

>>>>>Locals are on nobody's side but their own.  Most self-centered mo******kers on earth.<<<<

UBL said "Arabs ride the strong horse."

>>>>...you could never count on (the QRF) being there in less than 30-40 minutes.  That might as well be forever. Hey, it's a war, you take risks.  That's why you train.  I had good guys, with a little luck; I was comfortable taking on anything the enemy had in our zone.  OTOH, if you stumble into a prepared ambush, you're going to get torn up no matter how many you have. <<<<

But still, five guys can get in waaaay over their heads quick, quick.  You need air, arty, mortar maggots, a QRF,...something.

>>>>>Regardless of what the bolt gunners tell you, they are still slower than a gas gun, and you have the break position to use them, which is accentuated by some of the unorthodox positions you use out in real life.  Can you be fast, surely.  My ATL was real fast; we tagged two guys at 720 in about five seconds.  We knew that shot was coming however.  Times four or five though, you're still slower, especially on some assedup position you just cobbled together to hit some dude you just spotted off the move or something like that.<<<<

Absolutely.  The bolt is certainly slower and there is a lot of monkey-motion involved in flicking a bolt from some jackass-prone field position.  I was just saying that maintaining continuity of fire with a box magazine would be the worst part of using a glorified varmint rifle to engage multiple opponents at long distances.  If it would keep going 'bang' a rifleman could make a bolt gun work.  If it won't, he can't.

>>>>Problem is now you start getting into the dogmatic issues of whether a 'sniper' really needs all that ammo and such.  And folks start getting up in arms.  Me, I like having options and a SR-25/Mk11 type rifle would reduce the need to schlep an assault weapon about.<<<<

In that statement and in your next couple of paragraphs - you make a good case.  

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 01:05:20 (ZULU)


MK4: Keep watching SOF ...

Gave that coin to RKB. He has turned into a serious friend of the program.

157 Platoons being supported currently. 46 have come home since we started.

Have raised roughly $ 400,000 dollars CARE/GEAR/CASH.

Made $ 1875.00 @ Houston Gun Show over the weekend.

On a mission bud ...

BK

aka Pimp Daddy

brian k. sain Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 03:54:09 (ZULU)


Major Joe.  If that little voice tells you its time to move on dont ignore it.  Life may not be easier but it sure gets interesting.  I can honeslty say that the day I listened to my inner voice and changed careers (again) my life became a mystery unraveling.  It is such a great adventure...  I thank God that He had me grow up in the military otherwise this second half of my life wouldnt be the same.  He has used almost every facet of my previous military life in the preparation for this one..  Only those who have gone through this will understand.  I had a pretty interesting life but truthfully it seems like it was another man living it....  Ofcourse we all know it was another man...

Thanks for all of you who participated in the raffle and I'm sure the new owner of my blaster will enjoy shooting it.  

Gooch Email this member See this member's profile
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 04:26:27 (ZULU)


Sorry, I get a little preachy here:

>>>>>Carry two rifles?  Screw all of that you can find, especially if one of them weighs more than a chain saw.  That plus ammo for both, spotter, binos, h20, frags, smoke, flares, radio, spare battery, 4 day's rations, 40mm ammo,...what am I leaving out?  Naw, man, one rifle. <<<<<

Sometimes you rolled with only one rifle, sometimes you took both, it’s all dependant on the situation.  Travel light, freeze at night.  In winter, life flat-out sucked.  You just suffer more but having a bolt gun in a palm forest gunfight, or worse an M9(useless brick), was seen as being even less fun.  The unit we relieved, 2/2 had SAM-R’s, which are like Mk12/SPR’s, unfortunately for us, they took these home with them, so all we had was 8 M40A3’s and M16A4’s with ACOG’s, which are not bad out to maybe 400-500yds or so.  The problem is target ID, which is what makes iron sights so damned useless.

>>>>>It does sound like it would discourage untrained troops.<<<<

SAW’s were good to have, especially for dealing with vehicles.

>>>>That's the thing.  Who said that no plan survives first contact with the enemy?  Cest le guerre'. <<<<

Understood, but it really wasn’t as bad as it seems.  Once you go loud, the guys in contact call the dance whether that’s “pile on” or “run away”.  Given the usual situation, it was usually “pile on” and kill these SOB’s.  OTOH, you’d get word from Bn that something was going to happen and it became important that the other element knows, then it gets complicated.  

>>>>>No IDF capability for mortars?  Man, they are nothing like us.<<<<<

Sure, it’s a conscript military; they didn’t teach many people how to use maps or to use IDF.  They’re trying to figure this shit out OJT, that’s why we need to kill them as fast as we can, because the more time we give them to learn, the harder it’ll be.  We “Should” have gone in there and laid the hate down like something from the old Testament, in order to establish the new order.  That’s not the way we do things, but that’s the way you “need” to do things.  All that stuff that the Brits used to do back in the bad old Empire days, well, that shit worked and they didn’t do it just because they were assholes.  

>>>50s start cruising through my position and my plans for the evening's entertainment would be subject to modification.<<<<

Like I said in previous paragraph, we don’t just want to discourage them, we want them dead.  

>>>>>If it wasn't your day, it wasn't your day.  But still, five guys can get in waaaay over their heads quick, quick.  You need air, arty, a QRF,...something.<<<<

That’s the problem, it’s all notionally there, but in reality, it was not.  It was near impossible to explain this to higher too.

“Do you have arty, QRF, CAS?”  

“Well, sorta…”  

That answer doesn’t get it done.  The unavailability of mortars was due to range.  The unavailability of 155’s was due to bullshit procedures and scared HQ types.  But it doesn’t matter, the fights where you need help happen danger close, where artillery is worth nothing.  The 155’s would kill you better than the enemy could ever hope to.  If you get involved in a long range gunfight, you can kill them with precision fire until they decide to run away.  In this case, the lack of artillery isn’t a threat to the team; it just means the enemy gets away.  See previous paragraph.

CAS:  CAS is about the most overrated shit on Earth.  It’s never there when you need it(usual situation), and if it is(pulled out of the Baghdad air stack), it has 2000lb JDAM’s or some other giant shit that’ll kill everything in the area, so it’s either going to kill you and them, or it doesn’t get cleared, due to pussies worrying about collateral.  RW CAS is seldom on station due to loiter time, lack thereof.  I have to hand it to the Army, while 1stCavDiv was there, you popped a star cluster on Tampa, you’d have Apaches on you in 2-3 minutes flat.  Then it’d be the FLAIL-EX to keep them from shooting at you since they were on a convoy net or something weird and you couldn’t talk to them.  Too bad that was after all the action seemed to be over(Nov-early Dec timeframe)    

No, near as I could tell, for our little situation, the best solution was good old violence of action, good marksmanship, volume of accurate fire and high explosives, whether frags or 40mm.  That’s requires training IOT pull off, which is why most everybody is always about more training.  Getting into country and realizing that you need to train more is not the right way to do business.  S/F....Ken M  

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 04:31:12 (ZULU)



Bobby,

Sniper Quest in 3 weeks? I don't know how hot it got in Grandfield but it was right @ 100F here (100+ miles W of Grandfield). Maybe you should call this one, "Back to Baghdad." ;))

Been playing with my own 308 TAP loads. 110 gr. V-Max w/ 47.0 gr. /Varget. Not even up to starting load specs but is very accurate @ the shorter ranges. Nasty little bullet I'll have to say.

BKS,

Will keep an eye out on the new SOF issue. What you're doing for our troops can't be emphasized enough. Bravo muy amigo. Very impressive.

D3,

Hit me offline will ya?

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 04:51:20 (ZULU)


Ken M:  >>>>>Sorry, I get a little preachy here:<<<

Go ahead and preach.  You've suffered enough to sing the blues.

>>>> In winter, life flat-out sucked.<<<<<

It always does.  That fact about LPC (leather personnel carrier) operators isn't properly appreciated.  Did you carry any cold weather gear at all?  Neck gaiter, watch cap, something?

>>>>....having a bolt gun in a palm forest gunfight, or worse an M9(useless brick), was seen as being even less fun.<<<<

Is it a handgun you see as a "useless brick" or is it the M9?  For CQB one of my .45s seems like it would come in real handy.

>>>...Given the usual situation, it was usually “pile on” and kill these SOB’s.<<<

Somewhere Chesty is smiling.

>>>>OTOH, you’d get word from Bn that something was going to happen and it became important that the other element knows, then it gets complicated.<<<

That's what I was thinking.  You can only plan for so many contingencies.  

>>>>That’s the problem, it’s all notionally there, but in reality, it was not.  It was near impossible to explain this to higher too.<<<<<

The limitations you describe on your arty and CAS support aren't things I thought through.  Take arty for example.  I don't know how they figure this kind of thing - and wouldn't trust their figures if I did know - but there are a series of concentric circles centered at the point where the shell would impact if it wasn't airburst that describe decreasing probabilities of the shell's causing casualties.  Then there's the accuracy of the crew, the gun, the external conditions, and the guy who reads the map and calls in the round.  If the distribution of the destruction is real tight, and the good guys can land a round in a coffee can, arty would always be an unmixed blessing.  Now that you have pointed out its limitations in your situation, I see that your life wasn't so simple.  Same with your description of the CAS that was or was not available.  Those 2,000 pounders sound like they would give a guy pause.  

>>>>>If you get involved in a long range gunfight, you can kill them with precision fire until they decide to run away.  In this case, the lack of artillery isn’t a threat to the team; it just means the enemy gets away.<<<<<

No bueno.  As you said, they need to die violently, in public, and right now.

>>>>No, near as I could tell, for our little situation, the best solution was good old violence of action, good marksmanship, volume of accurate fire and high explosives, whether frags or 40mm.<<<<

Sorry to quote someone who called you a "goddamned Marine" but Patton said, "There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."  You are on the same page.

It sounds like we could use about 150,000 more men like you.  I'm out of questions.  Thanks for your good efforts.  

 

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 06:14:15 (ZULU)



All:  Thanks for the input on my 6.5mm sniper question.  Greatly appreciate the many fine points made.

Ken M:  Especially appreciate your input from the point of view of someone who's been doing this for real a lot lately.

What follows is my rambling train-of-thought musings.  Feel free to agree, disagree or just tell me to shut up...

As a sniper cartridge, one of the 7mm family would probably be superior.  So I'll stick with that or the good old .308 in a bolt gun.

But I like the 6.5mm in an AR.  The fact that it provides such improved ballistics over 5.56mm WITHIN THE M-16/AR-15 LIMITATIONS means I'll probably pick one up if further research supports it.  Kind of nice to have as a DM rifle for civilian sniper team competition.

Of course, in real life combat, you'd want interchangability of ammo between both rifles.  And the ammo has to be readily available.  In that case, I'd stick with the SR-25 or AR-10, and M852 ammo.

Now, that leads me to my next wild idea.  The best cartridge in an AR.  What about a round like the .260 Remington?  It fits easily in the magazine of either weapon (I'm talking OAL and diameter of the cartridge here).  But might retain the superior ballistics of the 6.5mm round.  Or the 7mm-08 cartridge.  Ken M might be able to give an opinion on this one, since he seems to favor it.  Or what about the .264 as a compromise?  And let's not forget the .300 RSUM in the AR-10.  It's available from the factory now.

I see two "markets" for these weapons.  First is the military, which will stick with the .308 as the standard unless the entire system changes.  Second are civilian marksmen, possibly including law enforcement.  This second group might choose something else if a combination of pure accuracy combined with terminal effects could be found.

So, for all the people out there:  If you could use ANY cartridge, in ANY rifle, what would your choice be?  And would it be an AR or bolt gun?

Just a thought.

RC

RC Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 14:05:29 (ZULU)


KenM, thanks for sharing.  Very glad you made it back.  I  agree we need a semi auto.  I think we also need a bolt gun. Talking with some folks it seems like the USMC may go that route and have two rifles issue to each sniper.  Now the caliber on the bolt gun is up in air.

Patton may have said "Damm Marine"  but  God and country loves the Marine Corp!

Undude/Mike

Mike Miller Email this member See this member's profile
Ca, - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 15:24:40 (ZULU)



After much discussion on the alternate cartridge topic, I (a civilian with no credentials) have come to believe that the biggest bang for the buck would be to simply improve the ammunition.

Imagine a standard military load for the .308 pushing a 155 scenar at ~2800 FPS out of a M240G, or a 5.56 loading pushing a 77 gr HPBT out of a SAW at ~2700 fps.  The performance gains vs present issue loadings is pretty significant without any hardware changes.

Ken has already stated that a SAM-R, SPR or SR-25 would have met his need better than what he had on hand...these are already fielded.  There is much that could be done without fielding a new caliber or weapon design.

Of course, he also mentioned that the most technically advanced nation on earth still cannot provide front line troops with a functional radio, nor coordinate an effective QRF solution in his AO.  

medicjim Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 15:34:10 (ZULU)



Mike:  "We want to get the hell over there. The quicker we clean up this Goddamned mess, the quicker we can take a little jaunt against the purple pissing Japs and clean out their nest, too. Before the Goddamned Marines get all of the credit."

- General George S. Patton, Jr

(addressing to his troops before Operation Overlord, June 5, 1944)

"Goddamned" was just one of Patton's verbal hiccups.

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 15:48:47 (ZULU)


Gents:  Well, I think maybe I talked the O-6 into retiring himself :)

He knew I was a goner when I showed him my LSAT scores.

The proverbial fork in the road is actually a "T" intersection; today my choice is either/ or due to age and time-in-service requirements.  Well, my two remaining goals in life are civilian, either I walk away or dive in.  I am young enough now to make the necessary change---if i wait thru LTC, my timeline is plus ten years.  I established the "better than average odds" or "merely average odds" criteria for LTC--and I am hitting (IMHO) the 50/50 side.  Time to move.

Weirdness:  The wife is not jumping up and down as I had envisioned.  I carefully laid it out---college and subsequent career moves are well within the margin of error here.  yet, she is kinda scared about this.  

But for me, after a shitload of dedicated thought (plus prior decision point identifications)--I am beyond any doubt.  yeah, it is a major move--but it is one that WILL occur either now or within six years (title X limitations).  I know that to continue--I'd need stacked odds in my favor or I would be gambling my future away.  Risk is one thing, gambling is another.  I love numbers that paint the picture on something as subjective as this---moving on is truly a hard thing to do otherwise.  The army has been my life since 17...

Gooch:  I agree; when I made the criteria--it was thru prayer and reflection.  I know it is the right thing for me to do now---and i know that even the most careful analysis has unknown elements.  The ability to understand this and still see the path before me is something I owe to faith.  I know my human side to err, so my faith is much more than myself...you know what i mean.

Joe M

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 16:30:11 (ZULU)


Undude:  We fielded the M24 at the end of the 80s...and fought tooth and nail to keep the Capp-guns (M25-ish mods by Tom) on-hand.  The "porch guns" had accuracy above the M14 based design, but the potential firepower wasn't something we wanted to lose either.  In essence, we had two sticks per sniper, but covered it by arming the spotters (me-ha, I was the second-best on my split) with the semis.  The shooter and the mission decided who carried what though in reality.  That option---two capabilities, was understood to be necessary!  

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 16:37:48 (ZULU)


Medjim, my feeling is this. If we have an SR25 or AR10 in 308 wht make the bolt gun a 308 also? I dont think it will make much sense. The 308 provides a greta deal of performance for the bbl life but after 800 yards its a second class citizen to many other calibers. By the way shot enough 155s in Palma weapons not to be too impressed with this. Most Palma shooter I know when shooting non checked matches switch to 175s or 190s.

Seems to me, primary could be a semi auto in 308. Still have lots of bbl; life and have bolt gun in better caliber. How about 338 Lapua so we have capabilities past 1200 yards.  It wont see as much use so bbl life wont be a problem but when needed its right there without the weight or stupidness of a M82.

The 77s are everywhere already. Damm fine but still not a 308 class weapon.

Now for police work or HRT I still want a 308 bolt gun because you just cant beat the day to day placing it in same hole.

Joe, seems we have to relearn all the time.

Undude

MikeMiller Email this member See this member's profile
Ca, - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 17:29:48 (ZULU)



>>>>It always does.  That fact about LPC (leather personnel carrier) operators isn't properly appreciated.  Did you carry any cold weather gear at all?  Neck gaiter, watch cap, something?<<<<

We had neck gaiters, polypro, fleece, hats, gloves etc.  Still sucks getting rained on and being outside all the time.  The sleeping bag is a modular unit, and it’s pretty good.  The patrol bag and a poncho liner will keep you fairly warm and not be overly huge and heavy.  The Gore-tex jacket and trousers make too much noise, they’re out.  A nice set of bowhunter’s Stalker Fleece or something like that would be much better.  Too bad that whoever bought the Gore-tex wasn’t a hunter or grunt.  Walking about and making “swish-swish-swish” noise is only good for mincing homosexuals.

>>>>Is it a handgun you see as a "useless brick" or is it the M9?  For CQB one of my .45s seems like it would come in real handy.<<<<<

1911’s in 45ACP would have been good, the M9 is a useless POS.  Magazines suck, the design of the gun is totally worthless for field use, and it’s in a fucking worthless caliber.  NATO is only a political organization, at best.  Seriously, look at the top of an M9/M92/96 Berretta sometimes.  See those locking lugs exposed to the world right there next to the barrel, well, out in combat, they get full of dirt and shit and the gun doesn’t fully cycle because of drag and crap magazines.  The gun is full of filth after just one footpatrol, without even rolling about in the mud, which is the entire daily routine of the sniper.  

>>>>The limitations you describe on your arty and CAS support aren't things I thought through.  Take arty for example.  I don't know how they figure this kind of thing - and wouldn't trust their figures if I did know - but there are a series of concentric circles centered at the point where the shell would impact if it wasn't airburst that describe decreasing probabilities of the shell's causing casualties.  Then there's the accuracy of the crew, the gun, the external conditions, and the guy who reads the map and calls in the round.  If the distribution of the destruction is real tight, and the good guys can land a round in a coffee can, arty would always be an unmixed blessing.  Now that you have pointed out its limitations in your situation, I see that your life wasn't so simple.<<<<

There’s a variety of little bits that shape this problem.  

#1:  We’re using ancient ammo and powder in the guns.  Iraq has become a war where you can use up your old shit.  The M107 ammo and its jigsaw puzzle powder bag system is old shit.  I did several adjust fire calibration missions for the arty guys, and shit was landing all over (200m radius).  This was at only 7km range from the guns!  We normally operated at 12-16km from the tubes (or further), which is getting out towards max range with the crap M107 ammo.  Further than that you need M795(the new stuff, which was never available to our guns, either USMC M198 or Army M109A6) or you need RAP, which uses a rocket motor and lands all over the damned place.  

#2:  Because of the shape of the battle space, we were usually on or very near the gun-target line, which is not the place to be.  Not much to do about this, except have alternate sources of fire, which were unavailable because we don’t have enough artillery anymore; it all got downsized back in the late 80’s, early 90’s in favor of green welfare and meals on wheels, as well as being “lighter” and “more expeditionary”.  What that means in real English is that you lack the firepower to get the damned job done properly.  Notice that every time we change artillery systems, we buy fewer and fewer.  The bullshit excuse is that with better digital systems, each gun will do more.  That’s bullshit of the rankest stench.  The guns are all using the same 39 caliber tube and they still shoot the same distance and now there are fewer of them on the battlefield.  A 10YO kid will see what that means.  

#3:  Deconfliction procedures with the aircraft in the B-dad stack ensured that no artillery (or mortars!!!) would be cleared in a timely fashion.  This is done by REMF’s on the mega-FOB’s who probably have never even seen a shot fired in anger.  Needless to say, their level of urgency is not adequate.  If we simply talked spotter to shooter with silence being consent like the doctrine says, we’d have been fine.  Because loathsome pussies at no real risk were scared the grunts might kill poor little innocent hadji by accident or have some silver BB hit a plane, the grunts got screwed.  What is basically boiled down to was good old fashioned micromanagement and complete lack of faith by higher in their subordinates.

>>>>Same with your description of the CAS that was or was not available.  Those 2,000 pounders sound like they would give a guy pause. <<<<<

Yeah, the funny thing is that the only time the Bn actually dropped a JDAM, it was a damned dud.  It was a demonstration thing; we were blowing up a building that had been used for torture and beheading type stuff out in the hinterlands.

>>>>It sounds like we could use about 150,000 more men like you.  I'm out of questions.  Thanks for your good efforts. <<<<<

Most of the grunt NCOs, the backbone of the military, were like me, or better.  I'm by no means exceptional in attitude, I just have a more relevant education/upbringing.  A large number have more enthusiasm than skill, but that’s because our military(Hell our damned society) has failed them by providing inadequate or improper training and education.  War is the universal human sport, and thus it attracts all sorts of speculation and plain BS.  I may very well be FOS, but I like to think that I’m acting rationally.  S/F….Ken M

Ken M Email this member See this member's profile
IL, USA - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 17:44:37 (ZULU)



Joe by the time you get to be my age , you are the sum of your retirement plans. The more you got the better you live. You measure success in survival today.    Were it not for 401K's and Social Security I would fade into the Salvation Army soup kitchen. What you've done don't count really unless it adds up to something tangible. Get it while you can. Loyalty and service to country is for your own Soul and by the time you realize how many people who don't realize your sacrafice and/or just as soon not think about it....... it's too late to do anything about it.

My father did 30 and spent the rest of his time in a furniture repair shop where he said nobody ever asked him. "What did you do in the war?" He wasn't bitter about any of it but smiled when he remembered he knew the truth.

Sitting on the cutting edge of technology for over 45 years eventually gets to be uncomfortable. I'm thinking of trading it for a softer seat.

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 17:50:28 (ZULU)


MK4: Thanks for the kind words but it ain't about me bud.

Those guys ain't playing around over there ... and we ain't playing around here either.

BK

brian k . sain Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 18:36:36 (ZULU)


>>>MK4: Thanks for the kind words but it ain't about me bud.<<<

You know you guys just don't know how to accept a compliment. Try to choke it down ;)) I'm smiling when I say that of course ;D Bruce and Joe ("Goodies for the Grunts") tried to play that down too. Nope, I ain't forgettin...and neither is anybody else here...

--

Ken M. and CDC,

Best reading I've seen on this site in a while...IMHO. "Eye opening" says it better. Thanks guys.

Mk4 Email this member See this member's profile
Texas, United States of America - Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 19:00:43 (ZULU)



I'm not sure there is a really wide choice with the AR-15 system as to what kind of improved caliber would be available given the size of the bolt and action components. I think if I decided to redesign the whole thing it would be around something like the 6mm in a smaller cartridge case keeping in the neighborhood of 3000 fps to limit the copper build up and weight. I'd probably try to develop something in the 85 to 90 grain bullet class with as high coef as possible without getting into something that feeds poorly. I think the .223 case would suffice and hold enough modern powder to make things work. There is a round already with that combination and would be usable with all the AR 15 components. A new barrel/upper would be the only change. Having used the .223 and .243 on game for a lot of years. I have to say that although the bullet weight is not drastically different the result of a 6mm vs. .223 bullet is quite a bit in the kill department. Not advocating the 6mm as a do everything hunting cartridge as it once was and the overselling of it hid the potential as a Sniper caliber although it's plenty enough for the 2 legged game. So I guess I'll say 6mm for my money.

After i posted the above i was looking to see what that cartridge was called. How about 6mmX45.

The search brought forth an article on it. I guess I'll let you read for yourselves if you wish. http://www.chuckhawks.com/6mm_military_cartridge.htm

Brogers Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 19:27:03 (ZULU)


Joe Mahon: LSAT ?!??!??

Say it ain't so!  Not another @#(*%&#^!# lawyer !!!

Duman Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 20:17:01 (ZULU)



RC:  Even in the real world of limited bullets, a .260 in an assault rifle would still be tough on barrels.  The army likes shelf life.  For some reason, replacing barrels for the masses will never go below GS/ Depot level (Even though re-barrelling an AR config is so dang easy).  And, does it really fit in an AR mag?  Hmmmm.  I did not know that!  

Dan:  Sometimes, we'd find rounds sans fuze.  Got mortared, but it was really just the thought that counted:)) I liked it when they only boom on the one end!  LMAO, really.  

Ken is right on all points.  My war was multiple sources or a better than average entourage with big sticks on call.  Having all the toys makes sense up to a point.  When the enemy devolves into a cell structure and the beheadings of the leadership slow down--maybe an effort to share with the guys making the daily contact is worth it.  My AC130 wasn't always working, ya know?  

Clearance of fires.  Coulda woulda shoulda.  That is as broke a damn topic as any we've kicked around.  Spectre was easy---it is point and shoot direct fires (even the 105)--but any other 105 would never happen in time for nuthin.'  We once could not shoot a direct lay 81mm counter-battery against rockets.  Poetically, they hit very near the fuckwads checking our fires.  heheh.  Gotta love that.  But, it was tracking of people, of all things.  Freakin' lost patrol.  We gotta be better than this.  Lazy S3 shops should be sent on patrol to wake them up...grrrrr.   Things were goat screws, but some of that is to be expected.  What Ken is bitchin' about however is self-inflicted stuff that we know better than to do, or have raised red flags over and over to fix along the way.  To me, these things are unacceptable.  Had the dumbasses in my example just set a few check points and maintained comms, we coulda smoked a launcher from our bar-b-que pit!  Or, the poolside tube (which woulda been my choice:))  Still, the near miss on the BDOC was priceless.  I was monitoring the traffic on the net:

Request clearance for four rounds of 81 charge two (or whatever he said) low angle gridxxxxxx...

(they were about 2200 meters ESE, off our wall)

Negative, over...

Rocket launcher in the open....

negative, friendly patrol is in area....

These guys are in the middle of a field, no friendlies 500 meters in any direction....

Negative on the fire mission...

They just fired a salvo over our heads....

Nega----oooooooh fuck.....

No more comms for thirty minutes!

I still find that funny!  I guess you had to be there...

Joe Mahon Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 20:18:47 (ZULU)


"...we'd find rounds sans fuze.  Got mortared, but it was really just the thought that counted"

Oh no.  I guess that, if they're happy with it, we've got the basis of an understanding.

Someone asked Moshe Dyan the secret to military success.  He said, "Always fight Arabs."

CDC' Email this member See this member's profile
Tuesday, May 24, 2005, at 21:44:18 (ZULU)