Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 2001

Dudeski's.........

I have finally had NUFF'...........
I am fixing to resort to the "Dreaded",Red Loctite 271........
Heres my rub.....

Every time I shoot one of my riffles.....the darn Badger mounts LOOSEN up......

I'm talking from 65in#'s to 20-25in #'s.......

I know you should check all your hardware prior to commencing fire....but this has happened on this one rifle.....3 times now.
It's on a Badger 20moa base, and it's good to go....

I mean, it's a .308 for cryin' out loud....
Any comments, suggestions BEfore I break out the GOOP.....
This same rifle , and ring combo cost me some REally good groups at a precision rifle class.
HELP!!!!!!

Two Shoes
Torque challenged in Tejas.....)):
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 00:10:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.62)

Again I am looking for email contact concerning rifle config./calibers suited for hunting Elk. Also interested on what stock config the HS on the Stealth is- does it have the palm swell or the sporter grip? Thanks.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 00:41:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.82)

Bill Moore...

The Winchester Stealth stock is made by H-S, with the aluminum block... wide forend, standard (no palm swell) grip... it is the very famous "Marksman" stock that Winchester designed about 70 years ago, and is still one of the most used target stocks... it has been copied by McMillan, and others... you will love it.

Two Shoes...
Try "Blue" before going to red. Red is very serious stuff (don't come out)... blue is damn good, but can be removed.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
One MatchKing... one Kat!! in the, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 01:13:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.64)

Terry;
Sounds like that hardware(through bolts)are stretching. This happens with all fasteners to some degree.I think I'd ask Marty for some more bolts and nuts clean them with brake cleaner and torque them up dry.Or I could be full of crap.
Bruce E <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
texas, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 01:24:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.169)

I have a small feeding problem with my months-old PSS.

It seems that the process of boring the chamber at the Rem factory has left a sharp edge or burr at the corner where the end of the barrel meets the edge of the chamber. As I feed rounds in, the edge of the chamber digs into and catches the shoulder of the brass as it's entering the chamber, halting forward progress, and shaving off a small amount of brass when I force the round in. There are two small scratches left on the shoulder of every piece of fired brass.

Anyone have ideas as to how to remove this edge and cure the feeding problem without major disassembly?

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 01:53:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Kevin (Andy's dad),

You Definately gotta BTDT contest thang going,

'Course never know whos gonna appear with a fresh "Carlos Match" tee shirt for not only Friday night (pre-match whoop dee do ), AND also each day of the event, and show you up. hee-hee

Speaking of which - Sniper Foo shirts?????????? Where can I get one?

Chao!

PS The 1st Sniper Rendezvous tee's are gonna be trendy again this year to according to the local fashion mavens. ;-)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Nyah-Nyah City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 01:56:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.31)

PeteR: BTDT? - enlighten the tersely challenged ;)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 02:41:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Jefe: Oh, I thought you were down there representing the country's largest hiking club. Working for a private outfit must be a welcome change.

The social scene sounds refreshing. As my dad says, "Free love and nickle beer or free beer and nickle love; It's all the same to me."

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 02:58:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Mike L,
I think this will cure your problem, go to the hardware store, auto parts store, etc....get some wet/dry 600 grit paper.

Get an old aluminum cleaning rod joint, (approx 12-14"'s long.)
Reverse tape the w/d sand paper, in about a 2" wide strip, and wrap it around the rod.

Chuck it into a VSR drill motor, and insert the sandpaper into the chamber......

Run the drill motor around 500 rpm's, and have enough paper on the rod, where it basically fills the chamber area, concentrate the pressure on the area with the burr.(stay clear of the neck area, and don't even get close to the rifling area).

This should smooth the burr out enough to get you fixed up......
And it will not damage the chamber at all, unless you go slap dab nuts with it.......

600 grit is very slow at removal, and I think this will take care of your dilema.

Gent's, thanks for the advice on the Badgers.....I was funnin', I know to steer clear of Red 271........it's almost like death and taxes.

Bruce E, I thought the same thing, at first....then I figured if Badgers bolts were that soft, they would be POOP, and no one would ever buy them.

Especially after this has occured 3 times.

Our own Mr. Bruce Robinson, has made me see the light.......
What is happening, is the base screws, are not completely bottomed out, and even though it SEEMS tight, it's really not.

Meaning my scope base is moving..............(on the front end).
This is causing the nuts to loosen up,( the front one more than the rear), constant vibes when shooting.......

I will remedy this lil' problem tommorrow.........

Thanks for all the responses on and offline............

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 04:05:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.28)

Gents,

Interesting posts...

Two Shoes, shouldn't your missive on Badger mounts loosening have been labeled "Torqued Off In Tejas"...? Can understand your consternation.

On shooting Schools...

Brother Bravo has it right. Go to as many as you can afford. Be selective. I've trained with a great many of the "names" out there and can say that I have learned something from all of them.

As an instructor, myself, there are certain things I look for in courses. Content is one. I tend to pick things up very rapidly. The course can only progress as fast as the slowest student.

Professional demeanor in the instructors and staff. If you see a hint of ego involvement I suggest you walk away. Pride of instructing is different and should be visible. Techniques tought for "cool factor" will get you killed, worst case, or fail when needed...

Dedication. This goes back to demeanor. If the guy is there picking up a pay check it will be evident.

Use the same weapons as your students. If revolvers are mandated then, by god, use one and excel with it!

<ke sure your equipment is up to the task. If you go to a $1,000.00 school with poor or malfunctioning equipment you will NOT get the most out of the experience. Buy the best you can afford. Be prepared to pay for ancilliary equipment. Whether it be holsters, magazines, etc. DON'T "cheap charlie" it! As I tell my basic students: What is your life and that of your loved ones worth? 'Nuff said.

Lastly, as an instructor, leave the pipeline open. I view all my students as "family" and tell them that. Consequently, I get calls, e-mails, etc. asking my advice and staying in touch.

Guess, I'm just a big softie, but it feels good to have a student call you and tell you what they learned just pulled him/her out of a bad situation.

Rambled on enough...

Semper Fi,

Wes
(Sometimes the instructor, ALWAYS the student).
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 04:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.37)

MikeL...
I don't know how handy with tools you are... but a 5/8ths" or 3/4" dowel, with a 45 degree cone on the end, and some oiled #500 or 600 carbide paper, will lap the edge just fine.
You just want to break the sharp edge of the chamber... 5 or 10 thou is enough. Keep the paper out ot the chamber... if the burr is "IN" the chamber, you need a new barrel

Remember to flush the action and barrel with gun cleaner (or paint thinner) when you're finished, and then oil it... if you're not comfortable with doing it... take it to a 'smith. This is not a disassembly issue.

PeteR...
"Sniper Fu" Tee shirts...
Torsten had a contest a few months ago for a tee shirt logo for his sniper babies when they gradumated... the winner to get a couple of shirts.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
One MatchKing... one Kat!! in the, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 08:55:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.18)

Ken,

Been Thar - Done That! +BTDT

You know like the dozen or so You and Tony have, + Sinisters "Marcos room" full of them. Speaking of which where is Sinister Dave?

I have heard rumour of a catwalk at the Rendezvous this year, you know a right said fred "I'm too sexy for my Tee" thing - HA!

All,

Make sure you pray for peteR, its once again "Qualification Week" which means more range time, and those friggin smarty pants type PHD yo-yo written tests......
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 10:54:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.214)

MikeL;
Take your rifle to a smith and have him find and remove the burr that is causing the scratches because it may not be a burr at the end of the chamber. I have found burrs in other places that do the same thing you are asking about and using a drill (lito you cannot get a 3/4" dowel in the action) and sand paper you are asking for problems.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 13:34:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.71.217)

Good morning all!!

I have a question regarding MWG scope mounts and bases. What is the general opinion of these products? There is a very small amount of information in the "Hot Tips & Cold Shots" section but more is better. Also, I called Mounting Solutions Plus and asked a few questions and something that caught my attention was the fact that the through bolt/recoil lug in the rings are ground flat only on two sides. I know that GG&G are square and I believe the Badgers are too. Thoughts on this? Thanks for the info.

Anyone attending the Garand Match at Camp Butner? Check out the match schedule, throughout the year they have Long Range matches as well. Everything from Service Rifle to any gun, any sight.

Semper Fi,

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
No-VA, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 14:11:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Paul..... I have a .308 PSS/LTR with an MWG one-piece base and a pair of MWG low rings mounted on it. I've never had any problems with these mounts - easy to install, easy to lap, and puts the scope nice'n low, just where I like it. Price was right, too! I also have, and use, bases and rings from Badger, Smith Enterprises, GG&G, and Dan Ross. For me, each has its place and specific use. The only complaint that I've ever had is that one particular brand used to supply base-to-receiver screws that were too long and bottomed out before they secured the base (many of you know who they are) but that was a very minor problem for me to correct. I was lucky enough to be pre-warned by an old post on the Roaster! As far as the square vs. two flat sided ring thru-bolts, I've never been able to fault either one. I'm sure no 'smith, scopemount designer, or engineer, but IMHO, one would think that the flats on the recoil surfaces would be the ones that really matter, at least until you get into the BMG level of recoil. Again... I don't think that you could go wrong with any that I've mentioned, as long as they are correct for your application!

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 15:43:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.77)

Pablito, your advice is very close to what I had pictured in my mind, only I was going to use a 45 degree cone shaped fine grinding stone sized halfway between the chamber and the bolt, on the end of a wooden dowel, and turn it by hand a little at a time until the brass stopped hanging up. And then I was going to point the gun downward and flush the crap down the tube with a spray can of Gun Scrubber followed by bunches of patches.

But advice from a rifle builder, especially one of Jerry Rice's caliber, is not to be ignored. He makes a good point - I think I know where the burr is, but I don't have a bore scope to make sure that's what's catching on the brass. To the smith it goes.

Doh! I just called the local smith - it'll take a couple of weeks.

I may give that stone a couple of gentle well-oiled finger turns before turning it over to the smith. The weather is just too nice now to part with the gun that long unless I have to.

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 17:19:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)

Anyone have any experience with the Swarovski/Barrett 10x42 50 cal rifle scope? I have a couple Swarovski hunting scopes and they are of good quality both in optics and mechanics. Is their scope adaptabile to other than 50 cal ? Target knobs or just 50 cal BDC?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 18:59:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)

Hogs, and Hogette's..........
A run down for all you non PRO's out there.

Subject:

Badger rings, loosening up.
Gent's, as expected, I pulled the sucka down today.
Examination revealed, what Mr. Robinson suspected, the FRONT screw on the Badger mount (A standard Rem SHORT screw), IS too long.
Although appearing to tighten fully, left a not tightened base front.

Remedy:

File off approx 1/16th, and then it will not bottom out.
Base second screw, use ONLY a Badger screw here also, OR the Rem short full length model.
Rear screws, use ring mount screws, as these give you more TPI, and will not come through, and are longer than the standard Badger's.

These mod's, and Loctite (NOT Red 271), will, in conjunction with using the LT on the ring nut studs,should keep this from being an issue again.

Lest you think I'm stooopid, I have used these rings, and bases on several rigs.........this is the FIRST one I have ever had this anomaly to show up on......so Caveat Emptor!!!!!!!!

Thanks Mr. Robinson, for making MY neighborhood a pleasant one to dwell in again.

Sir Wes, NOW, I'm not torqued off in Tejas!!!!!!!!

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 01, 2001 at 22:58:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.176)

CDC:

Sounds like your father is an ex GI and a wise man to boot!

I am happy as a clam down here, workwise and everything else. Nothing like NO INCOME TAX (legally) when you work overseas.

Picture this too: Sitting in the movie theater watching American movies in english with spanish subtitles (great for learning). A bunch of well endowed, white blouse/black mini skirt wearing chicas come down to your seat and say "Good Evening Sir; would you care for anything from the bar?" They don't mean snack bar, although they will do that too.

Besides, something about Infantry squads patrolling the downtown area seem downright homey!

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 00:38:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)

Just wanted to put the word out about some upcoming training to be held at the BadLands Tactical Training Center. June 21-24, 2001 we will be conducting a Basic Long Range Precision (Sniper) Rifle course.June 25-28, 2001 an Advanced Phase I course will be held, and July 11-15, 2001 we will be conducting a Advanced Phase II course. A word of warning to all potential students for this course...Be in FAIR SHAPE !! Just a few topics from the course curriculum - Sniper Team movement techniques, Land Navigation, Operations of a TOC, Stress Shooting. This course will concluded with students going through a 36 hour continuous FTX! For more information, email me offline or visit our website(Click on my name). Take care and good shooting to everyone!
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 01:07:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.17.229.174)

Forgot to mention, the instructor for the previous mentioned classes will be SFC (recently retired) Steve Suttles, Former Marine Corp sniper in Vietnam (63 confirmed) and instructor for the National Guard Scout Sniper School.
Bobby Whittington <whittington@snipernet.net>
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 01:09:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.17.229.174)

Jefe: Not quite. Dad was Navy. He was a gunner aboard the Mighty Missouri during WWII and had a front row center seat for some vast and mind boggling spectacles.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 01:23:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Tony Y,

The Swarovski scopes w/ballistic reticle are geared to the 29" tube of the Barrett 50's shooting the M8 AP round. Of course at the prerequesite 59* F at sea level, your actual miles may vary with highway driving, yada yada.

In different locales your actual drop will vary a tiny bit. I compensate on my 82A1 with a slight holdover and holdunder at different ranges.

As to working on other .50's, mount it and shoot it and see what happens. I've never tried it on anything other than our .50's. Saw one mounted on a McBros repeater w/33" tube. Never had the chance to ask the owner if it worked for him.

Pablito,

Are you still going to the Ft. Drum shoot?
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, TN, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 02:56:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.125.23)

Tony (50bldr)...

Yup!. I just got in, and there was one spot left (which is now filled).
I made up the first set of test loads with 750gr A-Maxs... with 218 thru 230grs of H-50BMG powder...
... man, those 6" missiles will give a guy a case of insecurity ;((
I should be shooting it in a week or two... I promise you will hear about it ;))

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 03:14:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.77)

Looking to scope up a new SR25 (heavy target model and 24" barrel). I have M1-16X without mil-dot on my three tactical rifles (6mm Rem, .308 and .300 WM) and this scope has been hard to beat for long range shooting.

SEALS have gone to a lighter 20" barrel on their new urban rifle with the Leupold 3.5-10X mil dot long range scope. Apparently this was selected for light weight and the Leupold cam was adjusted to reflect the lower MV on the new rifle.

Purpose of rifle would be to extend tactical capability with rapid ranging capability, provide some form of BDC adjustment but retain some sort of target turrets (like M1-16X) for more precision shooting if required. Weight is not as critical as SEAL spec. But would like to maintain more precision capability.

I am really looking for advice and suggestions on quality or design features of the major scopes available. I really do not like BDC systems as the MV of a Federal 168 is HIGHER than the 2600 fps cam adjustment set by Leupold. Have looked at Springfield and that system is set for 2550 fps. According to KMC, the MV of this rifle would be around 2750.

16X power is terrifice at 400 yds, adequate at 600 and starts to fall off at 800 or more. I think 10X would start to be limited at 600 yds.
If anyone might provide references, experience or thoughts, I would like to establish a dialogue. Thank you.
sy308 <rodman@acsu.buffalo.edu>
buffalo, ny, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 03:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 128.205.233.187)

Dudes,

Got news. I have found financial backing for the International League of Riflemen. We will be incoporating it into a 501(c)3 organization and we will be planning a series of bolt action precision competitions across the country. Guess what? Anyone eligible to join a CMP club can shoot. So unless you are a member of an organization that advocates the violent overthrowing of the govt or are a felon come on down! We are also looking at a rifle competition for hunting rifles. You know those bolt guns without 2" diameter barrels? Yeah those ones.

We will also be conducting the Super Sniper Shootouts for police and military. By the way www.supersnipershootout.com is up.

Membership will include a newsletter, a riflemen.net email address, maybe a hat, etc. Got to flesh out the details but unless we have another recount in Florida it should go.

Hope to be up in a month or so. Be the first on our block to join up. Watch on www.riflemen.net for more action!

Cool shit also. Met a gal who just finished reading "93 Confirmed kills" and works for the VA. There is a God.

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 04:25:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.127)

Wes,

"... there are certain things I look for in courses. Content is one. I tend to pick things up very rapidly. The course can only progress as fast as the slowest student.
Professional demeanor in the instructors and staff. If you see a hint of ego involvement I suggest you walk away. Pride of instructing is different and should be visible. Techniques tought for "cool factor" will get you killed, worst case, or fail when needed...
Dedication. This goes back to demeanor. If the guy is there picking up a pay check it will be evident."

AMEN to that. And not just training like we're talking about here, but ANY training. Whatever the training scenario , those comments of yours is spot-on. The "web development" training I'm undergoing right now is an excellent example.

Fortunately my company is paying for the training, and they decided where it was to be done, otherwise I would have raised a lot more hell than I have already. The training is just not up to standard, but with them insisting on after-hours (their money, our time - we are being re-skilled), the current place is actually the best of the bad.

But, to give you an example. ASP - Active Server Pages. This is the technology I'm re-writing the Roster in. On the documents sent out before it say "ASP & Advanced ASP". Yet the instructor ("I'm here for the money"-type - and actually acknowledges it!) admits that he doesn't really know much ASP, and that he has already taught us all he knows. That is after I started asking some questions, trying to understand some stuff. I am sure that, after this LONG-weekend's sitting with ASP and the new Roster, I already know more than he does.

What makes this sort of thing so frustrating is that work expects us now to be "experts".

But in any case, I have learned some, and now know enough to get myself off to a start - sometimes that's all that is needed.

Enough off-topic rant for now.

HOGS, look out for questions about what you want to see, what you are willing to do (in terms of posting etc.) during the next couple of days. I want to get the first iteration up over the weekend. Ken has agreed to give me a seperate area to play in, so I don't degrade the site's (and probably others as well) performance while I'm playing/learning.

Marius

Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 07:31:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

sy308...

While the SEALs may have special ordered cams (if you have money, or "jooce" you can get anthing you want), I can assure you that the M3-LR, 3.5x10 that the rest of the military, and everybody else uses, hasn't been changed.
The issued 308 cam is for the new M118-LR round, and tracks the 175SMK at 2885.
There is a special order ($35) cam for the 168SMK at 2600, which is a nice, easy, target load.

If you find that 16x is terrific at 400yds, and just adquate at 600, you might look into having the power raised by Premier Reticles... thay will kick it up to 32x, which should take you out to 800yds with comfort.

I like 10x myself, but I don't shoot well enough to justify the higher power scopes.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
CATS!!! The other white meat! diner in the, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 10:17:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.41)

Sy308 & Pablito:

Seems like you'd have real trouble with mirage distortion with powers above 18, 20x. I know there are days that with my 10x scope- I think there are fish swimming inside of it - because of the mirage being really heavy.

Enjoy all this daylight hogs.

BTW - I had someone mention that the term "Hogs" meant "Hunters Of Gunmen"..... interesting... man - I've been too sheltered all these years....

Ken :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 10:29:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

New Duty Roster

Question #1

Hogs,
this is the first in a number of questions I'll be posting regarding the New Roster - if such will be created in the end. Depending on the answers, it might not even be worth it to do - especially this question.

When posting, we all (well, most of us) reply to a number of different messages, about different subjects, in one post.

Question

How would you feel about being restricted to one subject (thread) per post?

This has a number of advantages.

It is necessary in order to set up another Duty Roster format, in which you can see all the threads, and then drill down on a specific thread to see all the messages for that thread. (Take a look at AR15.com's forums, Assaultweb's forum etc.) You won't have to click again for every message - when you drill to a thread, you will see all the messages for the thread like now you see the whole Roster.

I can add the thread subject to the regular Roster (there are other changs as well), so somebody reading can just skip entries even here by just looking at the subject, and not even having to read the first lines of the entry.
Next advantage is archiving and the HotTips section. Because it is now threaded, I can just transfer the thread to the HotTips section as is, without having to cut-and-paste like I don't have time for now.

There are other benefits as well which I can't think of right now, but will hopefully become obvious once we're there.

Some changes will be made to the normal Roster, and the Reverse Order one as well (Yes, these will stay - we'll just be adding a third one for those so inclined!)

As mentioned above, the thread subject will be added as the first line for any entry.
The posting area at the top will be removed to a seperate page containing only that part.
Each message, whether in the normal Roster or the reverse Roster, will get added links:

Read whole thread
Reply to thread
Edit post (poster and admin only - and that only a bit later, not right now) (this will also appear on each post in the thread-only Roster)

At the top and bottom will be links to create a new thread, including the initial post for that thread.
The normal Duty Roster will still be the one going off the Main Page, but will have an added link for the Threaded Roster next to the Reverse Order Roster on top - and I'll add both to the bottom as well. And of course the cross-links on those two pages as well.

I think this is enough for now, and I hope this comes out like it should - else I'll have to edit it tonight to fix it :-) Everybody as confused as I am right now? :-)

Please answer the question here, as I'd like others to have an opportunity to respond as well to be able to see a sort of common concensus.

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 10:44:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Marius,

I like the way AssaultWeb has their threads set up. If you know which thread you like to view, you don't have to wade through all the other stuff to see responses.

Another alternative would be the way the old FALFiles and the Barrett www.board is set up. You need to take a look at it also. Similar to what is in place here, responses to a particular thread go directly underneath it, but you can quickly view all ongoing threads. Thread start,
response
response
Next oldest thread
response
response
Take a look at those alternatives.
Those type boards lend themselves to easier pic posting also.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 11:46:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.117.11)

CDC:

I meant GI to cover all branches. And my hats off to him and the Mighty Mo.

Good reminder sometimes. So much BS between services sometimes; they all are the best in the world at their specific mission.

MICTAC:

You still alive out there?

TRAINING:

Great comments by all. And I probably overlooked it, but one of the most important factors for me is that the instructors have "been there and done that." I always got a kick out of this one guy who had gone to a 2 week sniper course in which nobody failed almost 15 years ago. He never did anything after that for training and it wasn't his duty slot and somehow became a "Sniper God" and instructs all the time now.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 12:36:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)

Lito........
Am I seeing double, or what??......
M118 cam @ 2885?????????.........
Sheesh....barrel burner, may as well go to a 300 WM

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 13:00:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.154)

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This is my first post so please bare with me, I am one of those people for whom Bill Gates put a spell-checker in MS Word.

Now for why I am here. My friend and I will be attending Storm Mountain Training center's Long Range Rifle One this summer and we are looking for any advice on what to bring and what to expect. SMTC does a pretty good job of explaining it, but we would like to find out more information. We realy want to get the most out of this class so please help us and guide a few young pups in their training.

Semper Fi,

Emmett Harty
Emmett <emmettharty@hotmail.com>
UCONN, CT, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 13:22:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 137.99.167.91)

'lito,

You wrote:

"The issued 308 cam is for the new M118-LR round, and tracks the 175SMK at 2885."

Is 2885 correct? I haven't read/heard a great deal about this new round and I am curious if this is correct or a typo. Seems fast. Thanks.

Semper Fi,

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
No-VA, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 13:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

To all,

Sorry for the echo to Two Shoes. "Snuck" in on me prior to the refresh!!

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 13:35:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Training: First thanks for the kind words Bravo. I appreciate that. I wish I could spend more time teaching and will when I retire from LE but for now its just a few civilian classes a year with James and the rest to cops on duty.

Jefe, I dont know which teacher you are talking about with the two weeks and no more thing but hell that could be many of the FBI, or local cops. Many departments think you give a guy one or two weeks of training and they know it all. My department has sent me to one to two weeks of training on sniping every year for the last twenty. I leave next week for two with the USMC. Thats how it should be done for cops. It takes my pushing and some backing from command level for this. I just agree to pay for it and they give me duty time and ammo. We then have quarterly qualifications for the line guys. They all get 40 hours to start and 40 hours a year of training. Hows that sound for LE. By the way I know of no living Sniper God do you?

Gooch great news on all counts.

CDC had the same thing from the rip off artists. I just replied to send the money in a shoe box and I would keep it for them. I signed it E.S.and D. That was the first time. The second time I just replied "You have reached a none working email address for the FBI"

On sandpaper in the chamber. I would go with Jerry Rice on this one.

Scopes, the new US Optics scopes I mentioned before are almost ready for testing. I may have one at Pendelton next week. very excited about this one. Also working on a 1MOA adjustment NXS 3.5x15x50 Scope from Nightforce. I will let you guys know if I get one and how it works.

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 14:22:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

Re: Assaultweb boards

I am a moderator on Assaultweb (Hard Rock). I prefer the way the boards are set up there due to the fact that information doesn't scroll off but can be archived and sorted much easier. It is also much easier to locate replies and new posts with out scrolling through the whole list to see references and so forth. The draw back is if you have a large amount of forums, the whole thing can become moderator/administrator intensive.

If I can be of assistance with this, let me know.

Mike
BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 14:39:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.214)

Guy's....... I, too have received two e-mails from this Nigerian scam artist. I replied with a message that if I got but one more message from him I would find out where he lives and visit his loved ones for a 'cultural exchange'. I didn't specify exactly what kind. At first, I thought that was targeted at people on this site...... but check out the "Dilbert" comic strip in today's newspaper. This scam must have grown to National proportions!

Gooch..... great news! FWIW - count me in on 'Riflemen". BTW, I sent an e-mail to Andy Weber right after reading your post last week (about the Moisin's) but so far no response. I'm not ragging on you at all, but if you happen to talk to him - you might drop a friendly hint to him that he should respond to his sales inquiries a bit faster. It's only good business!

Jefe...... sounds like you're having a blast down there. A good friend took a gig there a couple of years ago and wound up going native;-))

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 15:07:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.6)

Jefe,

Sounds like a choice job! What is the market like for security consulting? L.E. is too P.C. here in California.

Semper Fi!

Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 16:03:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.124)

Mike:

I hear you on the 2 week wonder issue. We spoke of that in an email a long time ago when I sent you that course outline I wrote up for the NESPAC course I set up.

Sustainment training is where its at and schools certainly don't hurt. But what I really like to see is field time. Real field time and the more the better.

As far as sniper gods, that was sarcasm. As was said anyone who portrays themselves as such is suspect at best by default. However, there are a few guys I know who are as close as you get.

Finally, all good snipers have a God looking out for them. Just my opinion. He's the one who gets me home when I stagger the streets of Bogota.

BAD KARMA:

The security business overseas is pretty good. If you have been LEA for a while, I suggest you try contacting DynCorp. Last I knew they were snapping up cops left and right for the Balkans and Haiti. Good money too.

Good Luck and let me know how it goes if you do.

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 19:12:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)

Marius, I like that idea about the new roster. If it's anything like Beartooth bullet's forum, or Marlinfireams.com's Marlin Talk, it would be great...be able to weed out the stuff that isn't necessary, and be able to go straight to what's relevent to your situation.

Keep up the good work, God Bless
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 19:44:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 153.90.171.42)

Undude,

How are you getting training from the USMC? What happened to the ban on LE getting training from the military. Last thing I knew all LE had to go to Army MP school for military training.

Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 20:57:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.178)

Marius...
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Ken fixed the only thing that was broke (passwords)... the rest is fine.

> Question

> "How would you feel about being restricted to one subject (thread) per post?"

HA!!! You gotta be kiddin'... I'd go into shock ;)

I spend some time every day, reading "Biggerhammer"... and it takes forever to go through the posts... the Roster is fast, and I often read stuff that I would pass on, if it was under a "Thread" title.
=======================================================

Yeah, yeah guys... I should never type before having coffee, especially on Wednesdays :((
It's 2685... (twenty six, eighty five ;)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
CAT... The other white meat! diner in the, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 21:49:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.126)

Marius: I'm with Leetle Pablo. The Roster seems to be working fine. The boards with the thread dealies have no soul.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 22:40:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Gooch, hard to get in but its caled Joint Use> I traded some Urban Sniper Training for getting into the class. The USMC was interested in how Police Departments do the sniper thing since they are doing more and more Police like work in bad places. Knowing the right guys helped also. I wanted to learn the USMC Stalking techniques
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 22:47:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

Pablito.............
We KNEW you meant 2685.............
We's just a funnin' wid ya'..(:

Marius, I am with lito' on the Roster, you go to the different site concept, and it seems to stop the dialouge( er', I mean arguments!!!).

This is one of the few sites where you don't spend forever looking for something, just pull down "Find in top window", and you are at least close.
And you also can see what's new in five seconds, instead of five minutes.

On the Nigerian scam artist, they caught the guy's front men in the states, Kaweeesi imfumin', and Tedward Skinnedy......
Illicit fund raising for HCU, and the Demoncrats............(;

fwiw........

Two Shoes
Terry <TLS8323@CS.COM>
USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 23:03:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.79)

UnDude-ski...
Lemme get this straight!

"Joint Use"... is that when you do a stalk in the "Wacky Weed" fields, north of L.A.?

"The USMC was interested in how Police Departments do the sniper thing since they are doing more and more Police like work in bad places."

Are they going to the "Blond Ghillie", like you'z California guys?

"I wanted to learn the USMC Stalking techniques."

But they blend in with the scenery, and you make a fashion statement... and they don't rattle ;)

You're a real piece of work, my friend... can you break free, and come to the Fort Drum match... the long range part of it is 2000 meters.
Longest match you'll find, and it'll give that little Barrett a chance to stretch it's legs.

Marius.
I agree with CDC and Two Shoes ;))

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
CAT... The other white meat! Goes GREAT in Chilli, with a beer, in the, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 23:24:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)

Marius, FWIW I like this roster very much- as is. I agree with 'Lito, unless the author titles the thread well- I don't read it.
Guys, I am getting the shakes- my money heads for Georges place this week for my new M1A!
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 23:31:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.51)

Good Evening Hogs,

FWIW, I too prefer the current format. The various cross-topic exchanges are sometimes at LEAST as amusing as the data is informative!!! And it doesn't take forever to see who is up to what, etc, like the "thread" type format...with a measly 26.4k connection (phone lines in the dang sticks and no DSL available), I appreciate the browsing speed.

The current format is unique and kind of makes the Roster the treasure chest that it is.....contributes to the "pub atmosphere" if you will.
Could you imagine if they remodeled your favorite corner pub, and they made a separate room for each drink? Does that analogy translate, or have a been working too much lately? LOL

Also FWIW, I am going to have outgrown my single stage press before the summer is out I do believe!!! Never thought I would dig it so much. And shooting alot more too, when time permits.
Iron to the fire at the loading bench tonight...

Take care everyone and shoot straight...
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
Beautiful Wisconsin, USA - Wednesday, May 02, 2001 at 23:48:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.11)

Got the stealth today!! (Lito's right about this stock being awsome) Beautiful rifle but I have a couple questions for Stealth owners.

1. After cleaning I have what looks to be tool(not reamer) marks in the grooves on the left side of the bore (as looking from the chamber) that start about 6 inches away from the muzzle and continue up to about 1 inch from the muzzle. Not very deep, mabey .001 to .002, but they look irregular as compared to the reamer marks and do not flow in any particular direction. Did not see any damage to the lands except one perpendicular(sp??) scrape on one land at 6 o'clock about 4 inches from the muzzle. Looks like the marks may have originated before the actual rifling was cut? Has anyone else see this in thier rifles and if so, how does it effect accuracy?

2. The safety almost took an act of congress to put into the intermediate or safe position. It goes to FIRE just fine, very smooth, but my 240lbs ass has to force this thing to go from Fire to half safe. My thumbs as big as a midgets fist and I've had no problems with thumb strength, so I don't believe it's me. Any thought on this...

Marius, I have to agree with Pablito and the other, I really like the way the roster is set up now, just my $.02. This is an excellent site and it's very easy to navigate as is.

I would also like to say THANK YOU to all the people who have helped me over the last several weeks, especially Lito, Scott and Terry.

Chris
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
MID, Tenn, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 00:00:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.49)

Is there any company besides blackhawk, eagle, or army surplus that
makes quality rucksacks for snipers. Thanks for any help.
David <sog1zero@aol.com>
cola, sc, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 00:29:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.166.45.156)

Ref: Off the Net

Going for some R&R tomorrow. Won't be back for quite a while. You hogs play nice while I'm away. 'lito has my proxy........

out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 00:49:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.193)

I know this may have been worn out in prior posts but I am unable to find any info in the archives that directly answers my question,so here goes: What are your opinions on factory 308 ammo if chosing only between Federal GM and Black Hills.Is one better than the other? Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 00:51:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.187.126)

dmarc,
they are about the same accuracy wise......but, (Always the BUT!).
I would take the Black Hills over the Fed GM for the brass quality differences.
If you reload, or ever plan to, this is the way to go in my humble opinion...........

fwiw.......

Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 01:32:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.151)

Marius...I think the current format is just fine..It's easy to follow the current discussions[pissing matches] and nice to be able to reply to several posts without jumping all over the site

PeteR..We can now run without pain in the tendon....Bring on the Match

outa here
Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
.223 central in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 01:35:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.149.20)

testing....
ken testing <jcolsen@netzero.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 01:39:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

This roster rules a it is! Please don't go with the threaded bulitin board format! My only gripe is the lack of a good search function for the archives. Is there any way we could go to the archives page and search for a given word ro phrase in all of the archives at once? My bigest concern about a change in format would be a loss of the core community of reglar posters. This comunity interacts in ways that another format would not allow. Just my thoughts.

Chad's out (to finish up term work and give thanks to God for my new son!!)
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
oklahoma city, ok, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 02:12:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.189.59)

drmarc - what Two shoes said. Plus, the federal brass is toooooo soft to use in a gas gun.

Marius - Don't change a thing. It ia a real pain in the ........ playing the window game most forums use. The pass word has worked nicely.

Undude - do you have any schedules yet for your classes? When you do pleeeaaase let me know. It's a long walk from my place to your neck of the woods.

Cory - How is your knee surgery turning out. I had what you had done three years ago and it gave out last week. I am going in to get the Titanium - nylon - ceramic model replacement done in July.

Bye,

Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Michigan, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 02:34:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)

After much thought and thorough chastizing from more tenured Hawgs, I now vote to leave the Roster as is. Damn I'm easy!

Meatwoman arrives back after her two year management stint out of town tomorrow. If the paint and carpet colors aren't right I will be talking in higher tones tomorrow night!

Wishing for female color blindness, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 02:43:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.55.45)

'Lito, you said -

"The issued 308 cam is for the new M118-LR round, and tracks the 175SMK at 2885 (corrected to 2685).

There is a special order ($35) cam for the 168SMK at 2600, which is a nice, easy, target load."

I swear that you once replied to an email of mine with the comment
that the 308 cam tracked the 168gr SMK and the 30-06 cam tracked the 175gr SMK. My M3LR came with a 308 cam, it wasn't a special order thingie. Have things changed?

Marius -

The thing that sets the DR apart from ALL the other boards is the format. While "thread specific" format may have its place, this continuous, running "dialogue" among amigos sets a tone that would be hard to replicate with threads. I can get through this site, make my responses and go eat a sandwich while some other boards are still loading a thread page. It's almost like talking to my kids and the EX all at the same time! What a rush :-))))

IF IT AIN'T BROKE - DON'T FIX IT! :-)

Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 03:02:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.194)

Marius: I like the current style. It's nice to just scroll down, reading, analyzing, and learning without doing the window thing.

Chris: On the Stealth's safety. It was quite stiff on my .223 Stealth, too. Just field strip the bolt and clean it well. Use plenty of CLP and work it a few times. It'll get better, much better.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 03:03:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.32.207.188)

Marius - please leave it the way it is.

Back from Lewis - humilated in the 50NM again, worse the Washington Army Nat. Guard took our trophy :( - a Guard unit (egad)
When you shoot expert and some guys drops less on the course than you do on the 200m standing it is humbling.

Look soon for Kevin's smahed M4 optics reviews

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 04:49:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)

Marius, I've been a lurker here for a couple of years. Learned a lot and enjoyed the discussions. For what it is worth, the biggest plus of the Roster format is that it encourages comments, questions and responses that wouldn't be made in a thread type format. So many of the discussions start on one issue and pass though half-a-dozen different topics before ending. For whatever reason, this just doesn't seem to happen on the thread type formats.

Undude, do you know if is NF serious about a NXS with 1 MOA adjustments? I love the one I have, am seriously considering another but, hate dialing 144 or so clicks to get out there. If there is a chance they may come out with one in the next year, I'll hold off on my next scope.
Ed <six5mm@netscape.net>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 05:24:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.21.175.102)

I vote people take a look at www.freerepublic.com and see the thread based system they have. I like it. It allows for topics, threads, and searches. You can also quickly see you has posted to you.
Hank <Hank@vocallect.com>
going nowhere, confusion, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 05:51:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)

Marius,
Just my opinion, but as-is the Duty Roster is like sitting around B.S.ing with your buddies, even if You don't post anything. I've gathered a lot of food for thought on "threads" that I didn't even know I was interested in 'till someone started discussing them. I dig it, as-is. Thanks for all your efforts.
Loper <loper@micron.net>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 07:32:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.206.40.84)

Duty Roster Format

My observations are the same as several others. While thread based message boards may work well for specific single topics, information is often lost as soon as a response covers more than the stated subject.

Here is a thought, would it be possible to keep the existing format but add the ability for the poster to link multiple subjects to the post and have an option for the viewer to link to any related posts. Another idea would be the ability to search all the archives without having to open a month at a time.

KEEP THE CURRENT FORMAT with added modifications if possible. The mood of the roster would change for the worst if a threaded environment was adopted. I also think that the present format forces you to keep coming back more often to keep up with what is going on, and I think this actually leads to more information being posted and exchanged.

Later...

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 07:35:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.40.71)

Marius,I have to agree with the lads who say the current D.R is just fine.Frankly I reckon those boards with the thread arrangement suck.This is like bein a kid again sittin round the fire listenin to the older wise blokes havin a yarn.Makes T.V look pretty crappy.
G.W out
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
huntin season , being wasted, by work - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 09:55:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.87.27.173)

Markwell,
Best news of the week!

Glad you are recuperating okay. If you hear this funny little Ruuu, Ruuu, Ruuu, noise while walking just disregard it ohtay? ;-)

I've got to the point, where I can make a one hour cardio class without having to crawl out the door wearing a barf bag like a feeder sack, but I still ain't got rythmm (or spell check). :-(

Dunno about that 'Lito (He Who Stalks At Night), for a while he was working out and getting ready, and now hes back to talking about holding a 6" long cartridge in the reloading room...

Ofta battle the dreaded Federal Transitional II (TQ-2) with the steenken sun right in my eyes.................. E'Yah-teh-hey

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
undergunned and over caffinated in Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 10:48:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.34)

OK 'Lito,
Now just when we think we got a handle on the BDC's from Lupita, you go and tell us that the 308 tracks the M118LR (175 SMK @ 2885)????? I thought that the 308 was the 168 SMK @ 2650, and to track the M118/175SMK you had to use the 30-06 BDC dial as it was for a (180 @ 2700).
WTF!!!
Did Lupita finally get their feces to coagulate?????
Please enlighten us once again, as I am within days of buying an VariX-III 3.5-10x40 tact M3LR w/ mil-dots.

Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Confused about the cams again inSouth West, PA, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 11:08:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

"lito,
Sorry for the rehash on the cams...I've been pulling some looong shifts this week, and I've only caught bits-n-pieces of the roster when I can.
Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
palying catch up in , South West PA, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 11:22:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

Marius,

As they so aptly put it here in the Ozarks: "If it ain't broke it don't need fixin'."

I like the Roster in its present format.

Thanks,

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 12:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.251.140.136)

Titan, I will set down with James this July and schedule classes for next year but plan on July. That seems like a good month to get away and the weather is great in NM then.

On the Nightforce NXS with 1moa adjustments. I spoke too soon and will probably get my butt handed to me over this one. They ahve no plans for civialian release yet. The poor guys cant keep up with the standard scopes. This is just one for possible military trials so if you want one plan on several years down the road. If I get one it will be just a loaner for review.

US Optics on the other hand has their 1 or 1/2 moa adjustment, 50 moa per turn scope just about done. I will have one for serious testing as soon as it is complete. This one is very exciting. Also the cost will be in the 1000.00 to 1200.00 range and US Optics tuff.

On another note. I got the new Badger rings for the M40A3 trials. Man what a chunk of steel. You will not believe how tough the rings are. I have only shot 30 rounds through the M40A3 but it is going to be a shooter. Heavy as hell with all steel but if I ever need a hammer.

Pablito, atleast I dont squeak when I walk. Put some oil on your old bones. Now on the blond ghillie suit. It matches were I work. That is one thing about ghillies they need to blend into your AO not be pleasing to the uneducated eye.LOL
Now whats this about a BDC for 2850 with a 175 grain 308 bullet? What the heck shots it that fast or slow? the 308 is about 2700fps and the 300Win would be way over 3000fps, so what gives?

Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 14:26:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.85.148)

Format...
Yup, I like it this way.

It's funny... we kid around a lot, joke about "Sheepies", Cat shootin', and such, insult the hell out of each other (if you're not insulted at least once a week, you don't count fer skit in the snipin' world ;)..
But you'd be amazed how many of those "Thread type" sites keep refering to "SniperCountry" for info... some guy will ask a question, and the answer will be "Go to SniperCountry.com, and look in their xxx files".

I will remind youz bumz...

If you are into long range field/tactical shooting (a.k.a "Sniping")... This is the PLACE, there is no other PLACE... an' THAT'S THE FACTS, JACK!!!!

==================================================

CAMS... More cams?... PeteR will never speak to me again.

OK... I got some coffee.

Listen up you M3 guyz... some of these cams will track in
METERS, and some in YARDS, so pick your poison!

Also, some are marked in meters, but track in yards (Lupita has some technical communication problems).

For you 3.5x10, M3-LR guyz...

The issue 308 cam is for the M118-LR round... 175SMK @ 2685... and it tracks in "METERS!!"

The 30-06 cam was made for a load that is no longer available... but it is perfect to use for the M118-LR load (175SMK@2685)... in "YARDS!!"

If you are shooting the 175SMK, you should be using either one of these cams!!

---

There is a special order cam for the target load of 168SMK at 2600 (Fed GM, and Black Hills 168 load)... it tracks in YARDS!!

The 300Wm cam is NOT for the 220SMK... mistake on Lupita's part... it tracks the 190SMK at 2950, which is the S.E.A.L. A-191 load, and also the Fed GM load for the 300WM.

It tracks in YARDS (I know it says meters :((... but take it from the CatShooter, it tracks in yards.

With the A-191 (190SMK@2950) load, this cam is "POINT N SHOOT", to 1000 yards... a solar plexis hold at 1100, and a head hold at 1200 yards, will give you belly button hits ("IF", you do your part on all the rest of the stuff... HA!).

The .223 (Double HA!!) cam will match most 55gr pointed boat tails at 3200... but the V-Maxs will fly a bit high, past 200.

OK... you MK4-M3 users...

The issue 308 cam is for the target load of 168SMK at 2600 (Fed GM, and Black Hills 168 load)... it tracks in YARDS!!

The rare (and expensive) M118 NATO cam looks cool (has a CDIF of 8 ;)
... but has the same markups/comeups as the standard cam :((

Both these cams track the 168SMK @ 2600, in YARDS (I know the nato cam says meters, but it AIN'T!!)

To shoot the M118-LR round... 175SMK @ 2685... use the 30-06 cam, and measure in YARDS.

There is NO cam for the MK4-M3 that will track the 175SMK in meters :(( BUMMER!!

The 300Wm cam is NOT for the 220SMK... mistake on Lupita's part... it tracks the 190SMK at 2950, which is the S.E.A.L. A-191 load, and also the Fed GM load for the 300WM.
It tracks in YARDS (I know it says meters :((... but take it from the CatShooter, it tracks in yards.
With the A-191 (190SMK@2950) load, this cam is "POINT N SHOOT", to 1000 yards... a solar plexis hold at 1100, and a head hold at 1200 yards, will give you belly button hits ("IF", you do your part on all the rest of the stuff... HA!).

The .223 (HA!... Double HA!!) cam will match most 55gr pointed boat tails at 3200... but the V-Maxs will fly a bit high, past 200.

... that's it!

Now... keep in mind that these cams are velocity dependant.
A lot of guys ay that the M3 cams "Suck", and can't be used...
... part of the iuc because many of the cams are mismarked, or misunderstood... but it also comes from the fact that many guys sticks aren't shooting at the velocity the think they are...

.. if you go out and buy a PSS, and toss a M3 scope on it... don't count on it to just "work"... the velocity of rifles WILL vary, and vary a lot.

Three years ago, I took a bunch of bolt 308s to the range and shot them with the same lot of Fed GM (168@2600)

The two 27.5" barrels were the fastest at around 2710 and 2715... a 24" Schneider was in at 2690, and two PSS's ran 2590, and 2575.
So... as much as barrel length is important, the cut of the troat, leade, and rifling also has a lot to do with the final velocity...

If you took a 20" PSS, you could be running as low as 2450, 2475... or could be 2600.
You need to know what it is, and if you handload, then match the velocity to the proper cam.

Paste this to your wordprocessor, and print it out.

There will be an exam on Monday ;)

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 14:59:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)

Thank you for clearing all that BDC/cam mess up once again O Great Felinus Domesticus Stalker. For a moment there I thought Lupita had actually fixed all the "known issues" that we have come to take for granted around here. Good to know all is still as "know it and expect it to be".

One question for you though.....Did you get a special Mildot reticle made up for your "feline eradication" smoke pole? Set up for say minute of "Morris" spacing?
Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
SNAFU , South West PA, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 16:13:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)

JR,

Any update on the JB lapping experiment?

Duman

Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
snowing like hell , in Denver, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 16:25:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.1)

Marius..... after reading your announcement yesterday, I checked out a few other sites using the 'thread' format. I have to agree with the general consensus that most of the Hogs have arrived at. Please leave the present format intact! Add to it if you will, but the Roster should stay as is.

Great White (cat)Hunter..... Many thanks for the 'cams' heads-up (again). Maybe everyone will record it in their log books and the site Gods will archive it so you won't get tired of repeating yourself:-))

Andy Weber (Armament Technology)..... Thanks for your answer about the Moisin sniper rifles (Hogs- he's still waiting shipment). I wasn't really upset about not previously hearing from you.... just very anxious..... looking foward to doing business with you.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 17:07:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.2)

Duman,
All who give a cat's ass...........(Lito')
On the JB"s, and associated bore cleaners.

Did a little NON technical test, that proves the "theory", of the crap removing metal from you firepole.

Took a cleaned, CM Rem barrel, and punched it with a patch coated with the bore paste.

About 20 strokes, then I removed the patch, and scraped the residue of the paste OFF the patch.

I then placed the residue on two different items.

One, a piece of plain white paper...a very small piece.

Then, I got a magnet and put it next to the paper covered with the "Black Crap".

You got it..........It picked the paper up.

Steel particles in the used paste.

Same test on the cotton, same result.

Same test on plain paste (NEW), no picky upee.........

I don't need any further proof........magnets pick up steel, and not paper, or cotton.
Nuff said for this old fart......

Two non technical Shoes

Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 17:33:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.29)

Gentlemen: I am now wondering what I will have to do to build another Rem 700 sniper in 300 Winchester Short Magnum. Am told that 3100 fps with a raw 175 Match King is routine (in a short action 700).

A few years ago one of my NCOs, SFC Todd Thompson, had Mexican-Matched 168s or 175s on to .308 Hornady "Light Magnum" cases, with good results. Anyone worked with those loadings?

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 17:36:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)

"Sinister"...

>"Gentlemen:"<

Gentlemen??? What Gentlemen... We ain't got no steeenkin' Gentlemen!
Are you on the right site ;)???

>"I am now wondering what I will have to do to build another Rem 700 sniper in 300 Winchester Short Magnum."<

You have to start with a Winchester M70 action! ;)
But seriously... you will ned a 'smith that's familar with modifing the rails, or it won't feed... talk to George Gardner.

A few years ago one of my NCOs, SFC Todd Thompson, had Mexican-Matched 168s or 175s on to .308 Hornady "Light Magnum" cases, with good results. Anyone worked with those loadings?

The hornady "Light Magnum" loads were loaded to Europian CIE (I think that's the acronym), standards... you can reach these levels yourself if you load your own... they're HOT... not to be used in whimpy riffles.

Two shoes...

Good test! Works for me! I never trusted that stuff, no matter what some of the "believers" said.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 18:38:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.71)

Terry 'non-technical' two shoes,

Yes, I do give a "cat's ass" regarding "On the JB"s, and associated bore cleaners". Thank you for your qualitative analysis and contributing to the body of knowledge. It is one of the few pieces of 'hard' information that have been presented. It is important.

I still look forward to the results of JR's assessment as well. It appears to be a somewhat controlled 'experiment' on a better barrel (read: better material and machining). The Remington barrel, if similar to my ADL barrel, is a POS and will provide POS results regardless of what you do with it.

As far as JB's, I will continue to use it. My savage Swift shot like a house on fire, but fouled worse than a bitch in heat. JB's was the only thing that seemed to clean it up (including Cu solvent soaks, etc.). I'm sure it had a better barrel than the Remington. ;-) LOL!

A continued investigation, and reporting, of experiments, experimental conditions, and results (preferably quantitative) can only enhance our knowledge. Without this discipline, the bulk of firearms 'information' will continue to be a body of knowledge permeated with "Well, I heard this and that, so I'll ..............." fill in the blanks. Although personal preference is always involved, and necessary, it's important to continue the dialogue.

Regards,
Duman
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Still snowing like hell, in Colorado, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 19:30:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)

I want to thank everyone for their input and help with my questions. It has been a long time since I attended a sniper class and I have forgotten much of what I learned. I will definitely be taking the sniper and LRR courses at Storm Mountain.

I do have another question...

I have a Leupold Vari XIII 8.5-25X40 Long range scope with the target knobs. I am going to have the mildot reticule installed on it. I am also going to put the Mark 4 M1 knobs on it. What advantage will they give me over the standard target knobs?

Thanks once again,

Mike
BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 19:50:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.183)

hey fellahs, ladys

just wondering if the rig this guy tryed to sell me is worth the jack

he says he has 1800 in it but will take 1500.

rem 700vs with stainless 26'' hart competition barrel, jewell triger and probobly a big bedding job and a big BR scope it may or may not come with a harris pod, I think he said the action had allot of work done to it.

What do yall think. I was set on a cheap 539$ stealth but he says win ships real slow and it is on back order should I wait it out on he stealth or jump on this fancy rig he has offered me? both are in 308 OF COARSE.

Also I just bought A golden eagle 270win rifle. I'm not sure of the model but it is real pretty and it has a nice trigger pull. the barrel is 26'' long. ANYONE know what this rifle might be worth? ? ?

THANKS
Big Will <madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 19:53:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.202.97)

Marius,

Is the list working properly. Three times in the last week I have posted and got an error message. Am I just "persona non grata"?
Geez, I even showered, too!

Gents,

On the .300 Winchester Short Magnum...Yawn. Seems a lot of folks are asking about this one because it's:
1. Short and stubby like a PPC.
2. Give .300 Win Mag ballistics in a short action.
3. Yada, Yada, Yada...

My take...Sniper's ain't benchresters...the benefit of a short action over long has yet to be proven,IMHO. Anyone know of someone who missed, lost a shot, or XXXX just because their action was long?

Inherent accuracy of the new cartridge has only been alluded to...NOT proven. Definetely, NOT proven in our realm.

This is gonna have the same problem some other cartridges have. You have to seat the heavier bullets deeper, losing powder space. Additionally, most rifles are going to give up at least one round of capacity for the WSM round. NOT!

Oh, and finally the damn thing is NOT in the supply/logistics system. Police OR DOD!

Hell, I'm short and stubby, but no one ever beat a path to my door!

Think I'll stick with the .308 and .300 Win Mag. At least until someone does the logical thing and replaces them with the 6.5 x .284...;-)

Semper Fi,

Wes
(Just stirring the pot...)
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 21:04:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.39)

Big Will,
Who did the work? Can you supply info on what was actually done?
Bolt and action trued, etc. How many rounds thru the rifle? Can the seller supply you a sample group?

Even though I am not there, it sounds like there is potential for fishiness. What type of glass is on it? A BR scope could mean anything. If it is a Simmons or Tasco, pass.

Also be sure to take into consideration that for that money, you could have the Stealth, an Undude sling, a good bipod, AND a GOOD (Loopy) Mil Dot scope.

I usually try and buy new, as then you know exactly what you are getting.

My 2 cents.

Anyone remember when we did the last equipment check ref: guns.

Anyone care to do that again?
Subject:
Field equipment, as in, what gear do you have and use for ops, training, and SHTF? Obviously you Milspec types out there will be using mostly GI stuff, but I am sure you have some of your own tricks.

Or would that be giving away too many secrets?

Bolt my man, do you really think you can get a color right in a woman's eyes? LMAO....I sure as hell can't. My wife and I have gone on to "if you don't like MY color, than YOU do it!!". Goes back to the time I asked her "what the hell is Fooshcia? That is PINK".

She won't let me have ANYTHING to do with the home decorating/paint colors thing anymore!!!! We have the house split up, as in "this is my room, that's your room" and we decorate to our own tastes...do whatever you want (within reason ;>)). Otherwise she would probably kill me.

I have the den, sunroom, 2 bedrooms upstairs, and the garage.
She has the living room, kitchen , master bedroom, bathroom, and the 3rd bedroom usptairs.

I think I got the better bargain!!!! LOL

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 21:04:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.51.146)

Pablito, I hadn't thought of opening up the rails on the action. Truth is, I have a gunsmith in mind (he works for our Uncle at Fort Benning).

Wes, unproven -- wanna bet?

Not in the supply system -- but then again, neither were the Mark 211 Raufoss .50 cals, 180 grain 308s (with the old Sierra Match boat-tail), SR-25s and AR-10s, McMillan-stocked 300 Win Mag autoloaders, the .338 Lapua, OPS INC suppressors, MP5SDs, or the 190 grain Sierra 300 Win Mags...until someone let a contract.

I think the M24 long action can be upgraded to a Short Mag just as easily as the Win Mag -- while also long-seating a VLD. Maybe a 250 grain PRL tungsten VLD. The advantages of the fat, stubby Short Mag are very much like the 6 PPC, but shooting a 308 projo at 3100 fps (efficient burn with maybe 10 grains less powder than a Win Mag).

Benchrester? Hah! No little bitty 6mms for me, thanks. Can't kill someone behind cover if the bullet shatters on contact with a sand bag.

Widener's is carrying 6-24X Bushnell scopes with the B&L "Army" mil-dot reticle for $395 (item number 426242M).

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 23:38:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.15)

"Sinister"...

I'm with you on "Long actions" for short cartridges.
I think anyone buildong a rig for the any of the 284 family, or the new "short" Win mags, should use a long action, and seat those long puppies out, so the base in in the neck, not down using up powder space, and blocking the primer hole ;)

>"Can't kill someone behind cover if the bullet shatters on contact with a sand bag."<

That's what they make real BIG guns for... cinder blocks too ;)

When you gotta problem... who you gonna call???

Pablito's "Reinforced Concrete Demolition Specialists"...

"Pill Boxes 'R' Us" ;)))

I'm gonna light the sucker up in a week or two... got 100 M48's, 200 M1 "Blue" incendaries, 200 burgundy VLTs, and 1000 APIs :)), just waiting for the last of the cases, and some primers.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
MOC!!... Minute of CAT!... I luv it ;), USA - Thursday, May 03, 2001 at 23:57:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.111)

um. . . are there any aftermarket go/nogo gauges and chamber reamers for the .300 wsm? i really got hankerin' to chamber myself a new rifle
and i'm thinkin Wildcat! maybe a .264 wsm! or a .338 wsm or even the .257 Hyper-Vel!( that would seriously kick some groundhog tail!

good story i have about kitty snipin' ya listenin 'lito?
i used to be on hud when i first got married and was dirt poor
but i had my old marlin .22 with me (it was squirrel season)
inspection came around and firearms are a no no in hud world
and the inspector found it he took me aside and said hey look i could kick you out for that but here's the deal (looking me up and down to make sure everything is cool) we have a horrible cat population here so you take care of that and i wont say anything about the rifle ok we'll ofcourse i said yup and commenced to sniping kitty! opened a window set down in a darkened room and waited for those pesky nasty felines to line up in my crosshairs. best target shootin i ever had!

Jä§ôñ Çårtér
Jä§ôñ <Scion3@hotmail.com>
Sharpsville, Indiana, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 01:43:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.92.123)

O my aykin arse! Meatwoman thought the new carpet was a base for my next ghillie. I WILL NEVER CHOOSE COLORS AGAIN! Nuff said.

Back to the doghouse, Bolt outside!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 02:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.249)

Guys, I need some help pretty quickly- I was offered a great deal on an 03-a3 today and have until tomorrow afternoon to grab it. Serial is 460,*** - is this the brittle range or a safe one? Thanks.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 03:19:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.201)

Bill Moore,

The brittle receiver problem was with the early 1903's. The 1903A3 is not a problem.

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 04:20:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.73.27)

Hello everybody I just joined your roster.I am an officer
with the GA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.This law enforcement job is the first step towards my career goal of one day being on S.W.A.T.team,or
high level drug enforcement taskforce.I am an avid hunter and a novice
sport shooter.I want to one day start competively.Not necessarily in award winning copetitions,but in mostly the types of rallies that the
pics on this web site show.I currently own an M1A1,it's stock right now.I use it as my primary hunting rifle(I turn quite a few heads at
the hunting club and WMA's I go to with it).It's an outstanding rifle,but I remember that when I was in the MARINES that I found it was easier to shoot accuratly with a rifle that had a pistol grip.My question to any of you is:What do you think about putting a pistol grip stock on an already fine rifle?My other question is that I have a
really nice scope on it,but it sits too high,and I can't get a good steady cheek to stock connection.How can I solve this problem?The custom stock I'm looking at has a cheek pad that can be raised or lowered.Is there a scope mount that will sit lower than the one I have on it already?The one I have a first generation b-square mount(man,sighting it in was a real pain in the butt,with all the screws thats on it).I am also currently looking at another rifle,it's a
G3 MILINNEUM rifle.It looks like the H&K 91.308 cal.I am open to any suggestions that any of you have as too a different rifle for sport sniping,and hunting.I(well,my wife...hehehe said that inorder to pursue my love of shooting)am going to take a second job to achieve
the type of sport sniping, hunting rifle I want,I am also open to bolt action rifle suggestions also.Once again thankyou for letting me join your site,and please feel free to contact me with your suggestions,and I as well am happy to offer any that I can.Oh,and one more thing I live in Perry Georgia,near Atlanta.Due any of you live around here and do any of you know about sport shooting rallies that I can go to weither as a spectator or shooter?Once thankyou.
Marcus R.Thomas <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
Perry, Georgia, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 05:13:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.67)

Bill Moore...... Doc is correct. Not only that, but if your ser. no. is really 460,xxx it's not an A3! Either you are i-digit short or you are looking at a 1903. If that's the case - see if it's a Springfield or a Rock Island. Springfield's under about 800,000 (I forget what the RIA #'s are, but its around 250,000?) are considered brittle and should only be wall-hangers!

Wes...... just because a guy might be interested in the .300WSM doesn't mean that he's gonna give up his .308 or .300WM, does it? We're not as fickle as those 'cartridge of the month' High Power guys or the 'cartridge of the week' benchresters. Ya said ya wanted to stir the pot... well here goes - I'll betcha a sixpack of your choice that the WSM (or something based on it) gets formal military acceptance before the 6.5(yawn)/284 does. That is if either of 'em ever do.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 05:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.152)

Hogs,

Thanks for all the comments - both here and offline. Some interesting comments and suggestions. Unfortunately last night I was otherwise engaged and only had time to briefly open my mail - no time to reply, but I will.

And that also applies to all the other mail in my box I haven't had time for - Bobby, apologies, I'll get to yours this weekend!

Most noticeable for me is the fact that those who basically wants the Roster to say as it is, comment here, while those who wants it changed sends me private mail "... I don't want to get flamed so... ". Maybe a not too good reflection guys (and gals), as it seems a perception exist, rightly or wrongly, that if you disagree with some here you will get flamed - heavily!

Now on to the comments. From some of them I seem to get the impression that not all (does anybody?! :-) of you understand what exactly it is I have in mind. Easiest way then is to get it up there and show you.

Whether we go this threaded route or not, I will be making at least some changes, so look out for the next question or two.

Ken Hunter

Can't miss that, can you? :-)

Will you please email me the details of wherever I can set this up so I can add the stuff there and get it working so I can show this fire-spouting bunch of misfits what I mean?

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RS - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 08:45:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

Changed Duty Roster

Scripting (Java & VB) and Cookies

What is the feeling about having these enabled while browsing the internet or not? Or more specifically, when browsing Sniper Country, and right now only the Duty Roster and Emporium at that? (I don't give a hoot what you set or not when browsing the rest of the net!)

Cookies are not really an issue right now, but Scripting will be mandatory in future. It *can* be unsafe, but I'll be asking the experts here to break the playing Roster once I get that up! And then tell me how they did it, and how I can fix that.

The main reason for using scripting (actually JavaScript) will be to make submissions faster, and place the initial validation workload on your PC, and not on Ken's Server.

What now happens when you post is all the info on the form (these fields you fill in) are sent back to the server via the net. Validation is done, and only once that is done will the details actually be posted. If an error is picked up (like your name not filled in) everything must first be sent back to you, and the process repeated.

By using Javascript, the initial validation is done on your PC. So you get immediate feedback. And the workload is not on the server. Only once that is finished will it go to the server to validate your login, and then the post will be accepted.

cookies will come later, but is very good for personalising your visit. And once I start playing that will/can apply right across the site, not just here.

Thoughts?

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 09:55:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)

I've noticed that there are pictures snipers in the national guard and have read of them in your duty roster.There is a
ARMY NATIONAL GUARD recruiter building right next to my house.The recruiting station is an infantry station.I can't rember what battalion it is right off hand.I can't go back in the MARINES due to a medical injury,but I tried once before about a year ago to go in the guard.I backed out when the recruiter told me that if I went in
I would be sent to bosnia for a peace keeping mission.I would of gone,but my wife was pregnant at the time,and was less than enthusiastic about me leaving.The recruiter said he can clear the medical problem with a waiver.I didn't know that there were snipers in the guard.I want a career in law enforcement,and am working on it,
but if I can go in the guard and be a sniper then I can persue my goal that I had in the MARINES,but couldn't accomplish due to a smashed bone in my left foot that I ignored for a year,but that'sneither here or there.Does anybody have any information about snipers in the national guard? If so,please let me know.
marcus r thomas <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
perry, georgia, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 10:28:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.67)

ARNG SNIPERS:

The sniper programs in the ARNG are widely varied. They range from disgracefully poor to outstanding and it all depends on what unit/state you join.

I suggest contacting the units 1SG and paying a visit during a drill or two to observe training before signing on what might be a very disappointing and frustrating few years.

The ARNG uses a 2 week school in Arkansas for training. You can get your MOS identifier by passes 2 different 2wk courses.

I attended that school after getting out of the regular army and had left a Scout/Sniper unit in Panama. At that time, the school was very good and I was impressed.

It is currently run by a former USMC sniper named Ben Dolan. I don't know much about the current cadre, but when I went they had 3 former USMC snipers, an SF guy who was a sniper in Vietnam, an ex Delta Force Sniper, and a former sniper from the Ranger BN. Needless to say a great crowd. I haven't got a bad thing to say about Dolan and was happy to see him get the position.

The two main points I found in the ARNG regarding training were:

1. If you are a prior service NCO you will be more tactically and
technically proficient than most field grade officers and
senior NCOs from the NG. They will resent you for it even if
you are tactful, but they will lean on you so they don't fail
evaluations from the regular army. You can use this to
influence training to a large degree.

2. The NG is generally not serious about training and provide only
lip service to it. This problem is made worse by the leadership
generally not having a clue as to what they ought to be doing
anyways.

If you go in as a junior NCO, you will likely be stuck in incredibly
frustrating positions, you will likely have to do every task
related to training by yourself (i.e. establish unit METL, YTC
Training Schedules, Ammo Forecasts, Support Requests for ranges
training areas, transportation, MREs, commo, medevac etc.) and
even after doing those, they often will not be acted on. The
full time staff will likely be to inept, or too lazy to pull
their share of the load.

At least thats what I experienced. I was virtually homicidal after 3 years of working with absolute fools.

The good news is, that I managed to get a great squad of mostly prior service guys together and we became a very good squad. And eventually the program became very solidified and the total idiots in my chain of command gave up on trying to stop the program and it still goes on in a professional manner today (I left 4 years ago).

Not trying to sound like I have a poor attitude, but I make no apologies for speaking the truth about what I saw in the ARNG. What I saw in the ARNG was totally disgraceful and quite honestly I was ashamed of the vast majority of my "leaders."

Good luck and again, check the unit out before signing anything.

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 11:49:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)

Marius: Your private correspondents fears are unfounded. Since the change to the password to post system, there's been not a single flame war. If the goal is to further minimize pie fights, can you get less than zero?

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 12:35:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)

Doc-Alan,
Thanks guys, I am sure of the serial and Springfield as the make but it was sporterized(no rear sight) & I didn't realize it wasn't the A3(wishful thinking- 200.00!). Guess I will have to pass on this one.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 12:35:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)

Jefe- I am still alive and kicking. Just in lurker mode for a bit as I have been real busy. I got rid of that anti-gun AOL and went to my name for this.
Glad to hear you are doing well in the job-hokay gringo?

Geoff M- from my experiences and what I see, and to state the obvious for some, use either a dragbag or a pack. The military guys I have dealt with tend to heavily use a pack (although this may be a regional thing in a huge organization-some one else could answer that better) while a lot of police use dragbags. I use a pack, my younger and less experiencedpartner uses a drag bag. Seriously-see some of the product reviews on the site.
It all boils down to convienience and amount of gear carried. The dragbag carries some gear and it is nice to grab one unit and be ready to deploy. I am a serious SHTF type of guy-so I carry more and want my weapon in my hands.
I use a Becker pack and carry my rifle in my hands or slung on my back. One caveat- do not use a big pack IMHO, because you WILL fill it up with unnecessary gear.

Undude- the guys have a point abouit the blond ghillie. Not that it doesn't match your environment, but the matching heels and mini skirt are somewhat distracting. Your undercover assignment ended six months ago- give it up! HA! Did you get my rambling phone message the other day also?

Bravo- question for you (and Wes too)- that kydex pouch you guys talked about for rifle mags- got a pic or website? And aree they good for prone and crawling? (and with a magpul)

Take care all
Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 12:44:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)

Guys a quick note. I am gone until 23 May 2001. I may be able to get to email but not likely.

Mike T., your old and ugly. Just sorry you cant pull off the heels thing aren't you? I sent you an email.

Undude
Mike Miller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 16:47:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.157)

Howdy :
First time posting in a while. First time with my fancy dan, secrety agent style password.
Anyway, gotta tell Pablito that I throughly like my M70. It took a bit of work to get it shootin right, but now it does.

'Lito, I like my M70. It's a 3006 Ack. with a Hart 12 twist barrel, and it HATES moly coated bullets.. so I don't use 'em (that Jeff A., he's simply brilliant! )

It will stabelize 185 and 190 bullets. It loves 190 JLK vld's with 58.0 gr. N160. Accurate testing at 300 yds. Tomorrow it will get a 1000yd test with the JLK's and some 185 Bergers. We'll see...

I like the notion of a long action for a short cartridge. The WSM looks like it could be way fun to load for/shoot/enjoy etc.

The gentleman who put this 3006 Ack. together has WSM reamers.. :-)

Hope all the Rosterhoggians are well..

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@Bellsouth.com>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 16:51:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)

MICTAC:

Great to hear from you. Yep, the jobs going well, just praying hte contract will last!

Been working for 3 weeks straight and am ready for a day or two off and a night on the town at some point (Uh oh, broke the no sniveling statute for the site!).

But they say theres no rest for the wicked, so I really can't argue I guess!

I will email you soon.

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 16:54:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)

Mike T:
What I was trying to suggest, was that we list our loadout, like we did with firearms, back in December I think it was?

That was a great topic.

I agree with the pack format. I am putting together a SHTF kit as money permits. I am basing it around the GI urban assault vest and a South African canvas daypack. Light and mobile. I also want to use RBA, but can't find any. In the SHTF scenario, my 110FP stays in the 4X4. My Colt comes with me. At least until the training level comes up.

My thoughts on that whole concept is that any kind of SHTF scenario will most likely be hit n' run, blend in, unconventional operations, (about 80% MOUT) and I am putting together my kit accordingly.
However, I don't want to be the first to list what I am using. I would rather read some more informed choices first!!!!

Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 18:09:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.121)

Sinister Dave;
Your thoughts on the 6mm bullets IMO are off. We were shooting at 800 meters me with my 6mmX284 and 107 Sierra MK's and my buddy was using a 308 with Sierra 190 MK's at a mild steel prairie dog and the 6mm bullets were putting a big gouge in the steel and the 308 was just making streaks. So much for the 308 hitting harder than the 6mm!!

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 19:43:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.69.103)

Hey guys. Did Remington make the PSS with a 10 or 12 twist? I have had mine for 2 years and was certain it was a 10 twist, but I ran into a guy at the gun store who told me Remington only made them with a 12 twist. Who is right? If I have a 12 twist I will not be trying 175 grain Matchkings as I had planned. Thank you in advance for your help.
Jim Castagno <jimgrafix@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 20:53:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.174)

Kevin (Andy's Dad)
I remember you posting about getting private access to some seriously extended range for shootin'...congrats. I'm in a similar situation too (wooohooo!). Are you making or buying your own steel targets? If you are buying them, from whom and how much? I've been looking all over the 'derned net to no avail. I can't wait to hear the clang of steel, but I didn't think it would be this difficult to find it! :(
Later,
Thanks
Rich S. <RS1441@aol.com>
Bal'mer, MD, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 21:17:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.33)

Jim Castagno:
Why would you not want to try 175's if your barrel was 12 twist?
That's a potentially great combo. I have demonstrated to my own satisfaction that a 12 twist will, in fact, stablize 185 and 190 gr. bullets. Much of what I have read ( and many folks) have said that you need 10 twist. Well, I think it may also depend on the shape and the velocity to a certain extent.

Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 21:49:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)

On Blond/Desert Ghillie suits, ill have to come to Undudes rescue on this one. Lots of Military Sniper Schools use the Blond Ghillie as their Main Ghille. The Navy Seal Sniper School I know does for sure and I beliveve the Army is using them now as well. Think about it for a second. Fall through the begining of spring everywhere in the world except for the tropics is brown to tan colors of leaves and dead grass. If you are on deployment to the Jungle or the Spring?Summer somwhere You, 1) Paint Dye your Blond Ghillie or 2) Vedge up with natural Surounding plantlife. London Bridge trading in Va Beach Makes the Navy Seals Issue Ghillie. "they are Blond".

Paul C. - On Rings Badgers are it!!!! MWG, GGG, Smith Ent, DD Ross Leupold are all investment cast. They may work with Lapping replacing screws etc but they are all about the same $125-160 price and keeping that in mind the only Ring I buy or recomend is Badger I think everyone here will agree there.

Jerry, Your 6mm-284 is carrying alot more Vel. to 800 yards than the 190 in the 308. I belive if you do the math the 308 still has more Energy/Penetrating power than the 6mm 107gr. My 22-250 puts holes in plate at 25 yards the 308 only makes a small dent its due to velocity not retained energy. Shoot Balistic Gelitin at 800 with both rifles and you will see a different story.

Update on my new employe Eric Reid, he is onboard and building rifles already. Eric is a wealth of knowledge on the M40A1 and The M40A3. Eric was NCOIC of the Sniper Shop when the M40A3 was first built up as a prototype. Eric brings with him all the Drawings/Shop manuls on both systems. Eric is about as good as riflesmiths get and I am lucky to have him here at G.A. If anyone is interested in a 100% correct copy of the M40A1. Eric is the Man. (Mounts and Scope are up to you to find)

Keep it on target

George
George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 22:08:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.42)

Jim Castagno...
All PSS's and VS etc have 12" twists... some shoot the 175SMKs very well... try them before you quit, it's an outragious bullet! ;)

George G...

Sorry, but you can't come to UnDude's defence on this one... it's not just the "blonde Ghillie"... it's the curlers, the garder belts, and spike heels that get him... but he does blend in "on the strip"... ;) ;)

'lito

(he who stalks at night... here kitty, kitty, kitty ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 22:31:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)

George;
I still think the 6mm has more "PUNCH" than the 308 at extended ranges!!!! I should have explained that the 308 was making vertical smears on the steel as the bullets were falling almost straight down!!!!
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 22:33:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.69.20)

Jerry Rice...

My 308 hits on steel at 800yds make round "splats"... maybe you're not pulling the trigger hard enough ;)

'lito

(he who stalks at night... here kitty, kitty, kitty ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 04, 2001 at 23:00:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.90)

George-George-George............

We pick on Mikey cuz he "LIKES IT". Nothing the matter with that Blonde Ghillie, In fact mebee I'll send Ken & Marius "THE PHOTO" to link up so EVERYBODY can make a thelar fashion statement.

Whooops I already did ;-)

Hee-Hee! Hah-Hah! Ho!-Ho!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 01:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.178)

OK Hogs, being an AR user, can someone clue me in on these magpuls?
I have seen them mentioned before many times, but a description, source, etc. would be nice. They sound vvveeeeelllly interesting.

Rich S....if you get any bites on the steel targets lemme know.
My brother in law is making me som prototype falling plates, and some gongs out of 1/2" AR. I thought someone here mentioned 3/8" T1, he can't get it but claims that 1/2" AR would be about the same. I trust him, he is a damn good metalworker and welder. Anyone have any input on this?

Thank you!
Still no bites on the loadout huh?, s
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 03:56:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.102)

O.K. I am in the market for a sniper rifle or one I can convert to.I currently own a Springfield Armory M1A1.It's my primary hunting rifle,and sport rifle.I am looking at a custom stock with a pistol grip and adjustable cheek pad.I want to atay with the .308,or
go to 300mag.I've seen pitchures in old magazines,etc of snipers using
rifles like mine,and FAL type rifles.Drawing on your expertise(since I'm a novice)which would be better:BOLT .308,300 MAG,OR SEMI-AUTO.308.
I'm looking at a rifle that looks like the H&K 91.It's called a G3 MILINIUM RIFLE,from the classic arms website.Would this be a good one to turn into my sniper rifle?Should I stick with my M1A1 and convert it,or shoul I invest in a bolt action rifle that I can convert?Also on the fulton-arms website I saw what looks like a .308 police sniper rifle.I can't remember what it is called right off hand.If I remember correct it's selling for about $800 before taxes and shipping.What are your opinions on any of this?Even if I have to build one in stages
I will.If you have any advise please let me know.
Signed,
Novice Sniper,
Marcus R Thomas
Marcus R Thomas <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 03:57:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.67)
Marcus R Thomas...
Marcus R Thomas...
Marcus R Thomas...
Marcus R Thomas...
We got it the first time.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 04:12:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.69)
UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Battle Formation!!!!!!!
Incoming!!!!!!
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 04:15:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.38)
Rich S. & Geoff,
You might want to give Rod Ryan at Storm Mountain a call about your target material. I seem to recall that he was using 3/8" steel, that he bought in 4' x 8' sheets, with a Brinell hardness of 400 or 500. I think he was buying the stuff in Baltimore. The local high school metal shop was using their plasma cutter to cut it to the sizes he needed. It isn't cheap. Make sure you're sitting down when he tells you the cost!!!!

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 04:50:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.195)
I think I found a good base-line rifle to build my sniper rifle out of.It's a remington model 710.I am preferably leaning towards the .308 cal,cause my M1A1 is .308 and I am happy with performance of that cal.Do any of you know anything about this new model?Also what would you recamend as a base-line rifle to start out with.I'm not new to shooting,so higher cals.wouldn't bother me.Also there are some terms I'm not familiar with like what does bedding mean,and other related terms?I would like to build my own sniper rifle,but i am looking for suggestions on how to go about it.
marcus r thomas <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
perry, georgia, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 05:29:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.67)
I appologize for the multiple same postings.I am having problems with my internet connection(sometimes it does the same download more than once).
marcus <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
perry, ga, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 05:33:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.67)
Gear: Someone asked so here goes
LBT Harris Vest
6x30rd mags - 2/pocket with DPMS desert clips
2x13rd BHP mags
1x pepper spray
1x Benchmade 9050SBT
1x C7/M16 Bayo
72oz Camel back in SOE Gear pouch
2x Paraflare
1xPVS-14 (3extra sets of AA's)
1xAimpoint M68
1xColt Carry handle
1xMiniBinos (shitty little Bushnells)
1xflashlight and filter
20"paracord
24" tripwire
1x camstick
1x bugjuice
1xField Message pad
1x triangluar bandage (bandana)
6x M203 40mm gren
2x CN/CS 40mm gren
2x M25 er
3x100rd 5.56 bandoliers
2x shell dressings
1x Silva ranger
Cdn Issue Buttpack
Brit Gortex Parka & Pants (nice and light)
US Sleepshirt (green acetate thing)
2xsocks
1xgitch
1xwisperlite stove
1xmatches in plastic conatiner
1xlighter
Swiss seat
2xsnaplink
I will get into the 3day and Bergen when others do too.

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 06:44:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.66.197.141)
Remington 710 as base rifle: This is built as a cheap starter rifle for those just getting started in centerfire rifles. (Don't really see why, WallyWorld sells 700 ADL's cheaper.) The barrel is a pressfit, not sure it can be replaced at this time. I believe there is a plastic insert in the action that the bolt rides on. This is not what you want to consider as a base rifle!
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
VA, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 07:44:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)
Hey Kevin...thanks, now I won' feel so lonely ;>)
Here's my list...it is still in progress though.
1X GI urban assault vest
1X GI web belt
1X GI 1qt canteen
2X GI 3X30rnd mag pouch
1X GI buttpack
1X South African daypack
12X GI 30 rnd 5.56 mag
1X 100 rnd 5.56 bandolier
1X Benchmade multi-tool
1X Kabar, USMC version
1X the same shitty Bushnell mini binocs
1X Silva Ranger
3X MRE
1X NVD TBD..had Russian, it went bye bye!
1X PASGT helmet
1X 8ft generic nylon rope
1X magnesium fire starter
1X container waterpoof matches
1X first aid kit, prepacked, fairly involved list
1X GI sleeping bag, medium (optional)
I can't have any cool stuff like 40mm grenades, sorry!!
I have been looking for some RBA, but it's hard to find.
I am still evaluating and adding a few things...I have an alice rig showing up soon but I think it will end up being too much. The SA daypack is a little tough to get open in a hurry, but all that goes there is the NVD, maps, MRE's, cold weather gear when I get around to it. I may change over to fastex in that. Anything needed in a hurry so far resides in outside pockets. I like the rig so far, it is relatively light and fits my ideas of what would be needed in light of geography and mission. I am looking forward to getting some training in late summer/early fall, hopefully I'll have an opportunity to evaluate things. Anyone with input, let's hear it.
Howdy Bill Moore! Was wonderin where ya went.
Marcus...dare I say it? Have you looked though some of the Archives?
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 09:33:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.111)
Flames !!?? What flames? Who would flame you for your opinion especially when the WEBMASTER has asked !! OK, somedays it would be great to be able to skip over all the stuff that doesn't concern you/me (like CAMS, again...)and then sometimes it is fine to read everything just to see how everyone is feeling. Changing would allow me to check out a thread and then move on where now I have to look & look & look to maybe find the next thread... Some on the 'Roster don't want change but aren't happy with just a .308...heh heh heh...gotta have the next "whammerblammer" every time something new comes out...
Change it..Keep it, either way I will still be lurking and even wasting my $0.02.
Oh yeah, any chance NF will ever make a 40mm obj scope or for that matter a 50mm 5.5-22x ??
OUT HERE !
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
"Sweet Home", Alabama, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 11:25:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.121.227.60)
Marcus - press the SUBMIT button ONCE.... AND ONLY ONCE.. even if you experience a pause....due to connectivity....
Ken
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, a - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 11:41:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Geoff M,
Been lurkin' & workin' to save up enough for my new M1A! Funds leave for George today...
Changing jobs now and new boss has been having coyote problems. Time to impress the boss(Hey, he knows less than I do!)
Wifey said her load out was a VISA! WTF!?!?!
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 12:56:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.26)
Venerable Sneaky-Rifle-type Guys,
Another FNG chiming in to say "Hi and thanks in advance.". I'm so new to this stuff I confuse Ghille with Ann Jillian, but I'm looking forward to learning as much as I can. I'm still shopping for a rifle (wife actually said "Yes"!) but the October "Precision Rifle" course at Tactical Pro Shooting Center is on my list of vacation days so I'd better have one by then. :)
It's a pleasure to be here.
Safe Shooting,
Steve "El Roto" G.
gopack@sprintmail.com
Carrollton, TX
El Roto <gopack@sprintmail.com>
Carrollton, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 13:34:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.119.199)
Wow! So many Texans on this board now. Guess you fellas in those other, lesser states know your place. (ducking for cover)
PeteR, Marius,
Finally getting the feces to coagulate around here. Should wrap up PeteR's rifle update this weekend (FINALLY!). Rained dogs and CATS last night, so no range time distracting me this weekend :((( Gonna hit the pistol lane in a minute, though, to test out the new USP Tactical I've had for three weeks and shot once. Gotta get that gunpowder fix somehow!
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Mud-floored ranges "r" us, TX, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 14:02:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.28.72.4)
The Archery Shop is selling new Leica Goevid Laser Range Finder binos for under $2,000.
Jerry, I won't argue the fact that there are lots of different bullet combinations that are very effective in the direct fire "I see it, I kill it" mode. The problem comes when that little booger is hiding behind something (a little brush, sand bags, cammy netting, etc.), or is wearing stuff that has to broken or shot through before I can hit the bad guy. The Army identified as early as the 60s and 70s "barrels of 6.5mm, 7mm, and .270 caliber have shown excellent promise. Their biggest handicap is the lack of high quality bullets." (The USAMU Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide, Chapter 3, Long Range Firing).
The "Uniform common to all" part of the Warning Order should determine your base line before adding/deleting items FOR THAT MISSION. Too much stuff is exactly that. Getting ready to do a 3 to 4 hour low-level C-130 or helicopter flight for a direct-action raid or recovery downtown requires a completely different set of kit than a 7-day surveillance on a targeted area of interest in the hills or jungle. Your bare minimum stuff should be just that, without overloading you for the 85% of the scenarios you think you'll face, no matter the terrain and weather.
Pablito, i've found that .50 cal pub, and will get it xerox'ed for you.
On practical jokes, you've GOT to get Rick Bowcher to tell you of the "Gotcha!" the boys put on him last week -- and got it ON TAPE! Hilarious!
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 14:12:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.15)
Soliciting opinions on Car -15 gas tube replacement interval. I have a Car-15 with about 10 k rounds through it. I replaced gas rings and extractor springs every two k. It runs great, no malfuntions in the last 5K rounds. One thing about the fifteens that kind of bug me is the inability to clean the gas tube and I wonder if i should replace my gas tube with ten k through it. Ive never done it before it looks like a pain. One part of me is of the its not broke dont fix it mind set. Thoughts...
Ben <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 14:23:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.255.104.12)
I have often heard that replacing a barrel that is shot out is uneccesary, that all that needs to be done is to "turn back the barrel one turn". Brownells sells throaters for $30 or so I was wondering if perhaps a shot out barrel could be resurected by rethroating and then increasing cartridge length?
Ben <Shotcrete@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 14:34:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.255.104.12)
Site Changes
Another idea just popped into my head, 2 in one month has be be a record. Will mentioned that he would like to skip over things he has already seen, or doesn't want to go over again and your cookie idea came to mind. Could the cookie keep track of the last post you read so that when you came back you could start on the next post in line without going through those you have read?
Anyone got any thoughts on how to get the other half to say YES more often? Guess I shouldn't be using what brain cells I have left on shooting matters till I get this last one solved, NOT!
Later,

Byron <byburnham@earthlink.net>
CA, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 14:38:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.41.42.181)
Geeezzz hogs.... that dam submit button has become semi-auto it looks like...
Marius - looks like we need to serialize the posts to prevent double taps....
Ken
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 15:27:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Has anyone considered having a rifle-raffle to help fund the ever-increasing overhead of the site?
If we have 2000 regulars at $5.00 each thats 10 grand, minus 3,500 to 4000 for a custom rifle (Rice, Gardner etc.) that would leave at least six grand for site costs. That should help pay a few bills.
And who couldn't use a / another new .308, 6.5-284 nom de plume, 300wsm etc.
Whadaya think?
iiii's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, Ar, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 17:48:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.111.44)
Hey Gun Queer!
Show some trigger discipline, or take it off strafing mode! hee-he ;-) Now thats a first for this site strafing posts insteada double & triple taps.

Master Rick,
What gives with this tape "Sinisters" talking about?????? ehhhh?

time for some R & R in
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Cardio & yard done! Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 18:25:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.179)
A raffle to raffle a riffle, so a sniper could have a new riffle that he got in a raffle.
The Raffle riffle to be made by George, who couldn'e enter the raffle to win the raffle riffle, so the raffle riffle maker is without a raffle riffle.
Right??
I'll go for 5 bucks... but there are only about 30 regulars on the site, and about 200 bumz that applied for a password... that leaves 1800 lurkers out there to pony up with the money

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
I gotta go find me some more Cats., USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 18:50:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.62)
Test, Test
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 20:00:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.159)
Heck, I'll pony up to buy a ticket or two. Plenty of things that could be raffled- bipods, ammo, packs...
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 20:12:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.71)
I'll take $100 worth.
Titan
Titan <hatherly1@home.com>
Mich, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 20:43:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.150)
Couple things:
First, I risk being in the (temporary :-) minority here and say that Yea, I'd like to see a threaded subject Duty Roster like Guntalk is over at Culver's Shooting
Page (http://www.jouster.com) I find it much easier to follow topics one at a time and skip over that which does not interest me. One really nice feature CSP has installed on their For Sale Fourm is the ability to DELETE a post ya made and want to retract. This is really positive.
Another plus is that before you post you have the option of CHECKING your post to make sure it looks as you want it to before it goes live. This avoids embarasment or cements it :-)
Probably the very best feature of that particular software though is that users can include photos and other graphics in their posts by pointing the software to an OFF SITE URL which loads a picture when a reader clicks on their post. Here
is an example.
As for the idea of a raffle, sure I'd be in for a few bucks... Sweeten the deal with a Nor-Cal Precision rifle (I like the earlier post of using some raffle money to buy a REALLY nice grand prize) and I'd go in for a bit more.
I am NOT speaking for anyone here but perhaps some of the folks that make smaller items such as a sling from Tactical Intervention a Mil-Dot Master, a Slope Doper, (sorry guys dont know your URLs) Sniper Data book from TRGT, and whatnot could be donated outright to the effort. Heck Marius et al might even kick down with a few Sniper Country T-Shirts. MemorablePlaces.com would be willing to donate a basic 1-5 page website design to support Sniper Country.
I think the raffle is a great idea and if I can get a chance to get another Rice Rifle outa it I'd be in for sure.

Charles - Of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 21:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
Riffle raffle,
Put me down for a ticket or six.
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The rainy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 22:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.251.140.22)
For a triffle of $5 for a raffle of a riffle made my George I would gladly pay. Count me in for 10 riffle raffle tickets.
Interior work now cascading all over the house. Might have to have a riffle raffle of my own if this keeps up.

Interior design and color challenged Bolt, Out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 22:17:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.244)
Gents,
Here was the plan for todays "Tactical Landscaping" session.
5-Paragraph Order (SMEAC)
1. Situation: Area behind house looks like crap
a. Tree need to be taken down
b. Flower beds need to be mulched
2. Mission: Beautify exterior landscape to please House Commander
3. Execution: Acquire all necessary implements/tools to accomplish Mission and begin.
a. Cut down tree
b. Get rid of all limbs and related crap
c. Pull weeds out of beds
d. Rake until even
e. Deploy new mulch
4. Administration and Logistics:
a. House Commander will determine, on an ongoing basis, all supplies/items needed to accomplish primary as well as all secondary missions that may (read WILL) arise
b. Actual procurement will be handled by Pvt Yardboy (me)
c. House Commander agreed to provide beer and water on an alternating basis as Mission progresses
5. Command and Signals:
a. House Commander to provide further instruction, as needed, when secondary missions arise as mind changes
b. House Commander will be located at kitchen window and periodically on rear deck to provide direction
c. Commands will be given both audibly (ex. Don’t put that there!!) and by hand and arm signals (pointing to where it should go)
Sorry for the off topic and long post but I COULD NOT resist after LMAO from Wes and Bolt and a couple others.
Semper Fi Dogs and Hogs!!

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
One more squared away area in Reston,, VA, USA - Saturday, May 05, 2001 at 22:56:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.130.107)
BLASPHEMY!!!!! ARRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!
I have now been instructed to clean my PERSONAL toilet. Sniper wannabes don't clean toilets, especially their personal toilets. After two years, I must kill and destroy the green and brown hairy ghillie looking stuff that has been growing in the bowl.
On a shooting subject, I think I now have Meatwoman interested in the shooting arts. Firgures, she's a southpaw and I don't have one damn riffle that's wrong handed. Said something about bow shooting also. What have I done?

Raffle a left handed riffle please, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 00:24:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.244)
Riffle Raffle, put me down for 5 also please....
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 00:59:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.182)
Gents,
Here was the plan for Pablito's "Tactical Landscaping" session.
5-Paragraph Order (SMEAC)
1. Situation: Problems…
A - Back yard attracting attention of fat lady and sheriff... Fat lady from down the street keeps draggin the sheriff to my driveway, cryin' about "Her missing CATS"
Sheriff's bloodhounds sniffin' an' diggin' in the flowerbeds! (not a good thing!).
B - Dead Tree attracting attention of zoning commission, and needs to be taken down to conform to zoning regulations.
C - Area behind house looks like crap!
2. Mission: Take whatever actions necessary, to get sheriff, fat lady, and zoning commission, "off my case".
3. Execution: Acquire all necessary implements/tools to accomplish Mission and begin.
A - Wait until midnight, and dig up ol' dead cats, and transfer them to neighbor's flowerbeds.
Scatter empty RWS-.177 pellet cans, and empty CCI "CB long" boxes, around, and under neighbor's porch.
B - Cover dead tree with left over Ghillie stuff, tell the zoning commission that the tree "Just came back to life!"
C - Area behind house looks like crap, but is a whole lot of work...
a. Area behind house looked like crap last year.
b. Area behind house looked like crap the year before.
c. Let Area behind house looked like crap until next year.
Problem solved... go load more ammo ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 01:08:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.9)
Site revision: The present format is very good, especially now that we do not have many flamers here anymore. I would like to see some kind of search method. Like everybody else I remember that somebody some day wrote something interesting about the gear/method X but I am not sure which month (or year) it was. I do not have time to go through all the archives to find the small bit of info. A search function would help tremendously.
Other issues: I am looking for a simple drag-bag/shooting mat for my 338 LM that is 52" long. Nobody offers one that can fit the rifle as all are 2-5" too short.
I would prefer Eagle but they do not do any one-time customs at the moment so I am looking for options.
The two companies I am thinking of contacting are Tactical Tailor and London Bridge Trading. What is the opinion on those companies, is the quality similar or is one better than the other ? I want to point out that I am not looking for a full blown drag bag to which the modifications would be a pain to do, but for a simple long shooter mat/sniper rifle cover where only the lenght would be different from a "normal" version.
What are the opinions on the Blackhawk Drag bag/shooting mat/back pack multipurpose bag ? Has anyone handled the new Eagle multipurpose bag that has similar thinking behind it´s design ?
All opinions and thoughts are welcome on these companies mentioned.
Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 01:46:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.119.110)
Plan for Pablito's "Tactical Landscaping" session.
5-Paragraph Order (SMEAC)
1. Situation Resolution: CLEAN UP OF 'LITOS Problems…
A- Option 1 FIELD DRESS AND ONLY DISPOSE OF ENTRAILS IN FLOWER BEDS.
B - Option 2 RENT LARGE WOOD CHIPPER & MULCH REMAINS WITH TREE BRANCHES.
C - Purchase Requisiton: Circulon Coated Surface Wok, Peanut Oil, Oyster Sauce, Soy Sauce (Salt free), 1 bag Birdseye stir fry vegetables, 1 box Oolong green tea, 1 Box Uncle Bens boil in a bag white rice.
2. Mission: Take whatever actions necessary, to get sheriff, fat lady, and zoning commission, "off my case".

3. Execution: Acquire all necessary implements/tools to accomplish Mission and begin.
Resolution - A - SEE 1A,B & 2
4. Resolution - Invite Fat Lady to dinner, Feed her a delicious stir fry, and ask her if she would like any of the SUPER organic mulch for her flower beds.
4b Post dinner invite of Fat Lady to basement to view 6" cartridge, Should this fail use wood chipper........
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 01:50:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.36)
testing another hog's account
ken hunter <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
nokesvill, va, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 02:22:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Ben - AR15 gas tube -
The TM-23&P recommends replacement of the gas tube if it is majorly fouled with carbon buildup. It does not require cleaning on a periodic basis if your rifle if functioning properly. You can use a pipe cleaner on the bolt carrier key as long as you are careful.

RIFLE RAFFLE -
I'm in for five.

'lito -
Please......no more. Why is it that just when I'm taking a sip of my Diet Coke I run across one of your posts?! I now keep the Windex and a roll of paper towels next to the 'puter. The kids are getting real concerned about my outbursts of laughter! Oy!
Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 02:31:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.72)
Hogs:
Raffle... okay youn'z figger out what is being raffled. If youn'z want - we can designate a collector, we'll setup a Raffle@SniperCountry.com Email addresss - then have all the hogs that want to buy in - send their raffle committment there...
Ken :)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 02:43:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Hogs - here's a conversation that recently took place between the Major (my USMC wife currently stationed overseas - for those that don't know) and myself.
Her: Hun, I was looking at the pictures. Is that... a target at the end of the driveway?
Me: Uhhh yes hunny it's that steel target that I made awhile back. wifell it 'betty'
Her: Who the hell is Betty?!!
Her: You been hanging around Pablito and his sheep again have you?
Me: Pablito doesn't do sheep anymore - he does - I mean hunts cats now..
Her: Anyway - didn't I ask you not to shoot down the driveway?
Me: But hunny, our drive way just happens to be 100 yards, besides I was shooting the .22, not the .308
Her: It's still shooting - Can you please move the target...what will the neighbors think?
Me: Okay hunny....
Ken mumbles as he wheels 'betty' on a dolly to the back yard to a 40 yard .22 range....
It's better than nothing - when you can't get to the real range....
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 02:51:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
I'd like to commit 'lito and peteR! :-))))
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 02:52:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.72)
Moe,
"I'd like to commit lito', and Pete R...........
It's bben tried, and NO Horsepistol will let em' in!!!!!!.
Lito', chase the sheepie nurses, and Pete R, wants to aerobisize the whole bunch.......maybe mulch em' too......
What's the deal with the riffle raffle???........
What's the price, and where do you get tickets?......
Let us'n's know when and where...........how mucho!!
Count me in, for whatever.
Two Shoes
Cousin of famous Placebo Domingo
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 03:40:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.47)
Gents,
Sinister Dave...we'll, at least my comments on the .300 WSM being "unproven" got you out of defilade. It worked! To the best of my knowldge the Marines haven't tested it.
I keep forgeting that the Army seems to have unlimited funding for "playing" with new stuff. Not a cheap shot, I'm jealous. Reminds me of the old Marine saying that "we have done without for so long, that we were now qualified to do everything, with nothing, forever."
Crazy week. No shooting. My 6.5 X 57 Mannlicher project is on hard times. Seems the chamber may be non standard. No problem. I can re-barrel as I got the complete rifle for a song and the action alone is worth what I paid for it!
My .284 stocking project ran into a snag, but got that worked out. Want to see how this baby shoots. Kreiger 23" tube on a customized Mexican (small ring) Mauser. My guess is it's going to be a real shooter. Will probably have it ready to finish in about 2-3 weeks now that I'm over the hump.
One of our posters mentioned a 6.5/.300 WSM. The idea sounds good in theory, but that cartridge would be BADLY overbored. Talk about poor barrel life. Compare it to the .264 Winch Mag. Great hunting round, but not for someone who shoots alot. My guess is accuracy would deteriorate at 800-1000 rounds(and you thought the 6.5 X .284 was bad!).
Gun show today. Was a bust. The show usually well attended has turned into more of a ammo sales, beef jerky, and trinkets show. Did see a very nice pre-64' M70 in .264 Winch Mag and a pre-64' heavy barrel in .243. Didn't snag either as I'm watching funds. Still it's nice to know there are a few nice things out there.
I may be able to shoot tomorrow afternoon. Wife and I are going house hunting. Needless to say, being unemployed and not knowing where we are going to land isn't helping matters. Still, we are doing well and the adventure is unfolding.
Semper Fi,
Wes

Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 04:05:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.67)
Keep the site the way it is. Like a good BS session w/o the BS. Well, sometimes... LOL
Off to Mudville, heat, and snakes. Yeehaa!!
Spud
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
Merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 06:12:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.247.225.14)
Re: Raffle
Put Mildot Enterprises down for 5 Mildot Masters.
Ken, looks like you're the de facto coordinator, so I'll send 'em to you unless I hear otherwise.
Website for those who don't know it is www.mildot.com.
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 06:15:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.243.54)
My 03 a3 bolt is not opening as it should after fireing it (dry or live) and i don't have a book on it any one know where i can find a book on repairing the 03 a3 ? or have a page they would be willing to scan and send me ?

thank's
Wade
Wade <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
washington, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 07:18:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.52.10)
PateR...
>"A- Option - 1 FIELD DRESS AND ONLY DISPOSE OF ENTRAILS IN FLOWER BEDS."<
Baaaad idea :((
Well, OK... but only if you like your meat "aged"... I mean really "WELL AGED"... like the Korean thing with the cabbage burried in the clay pots.

>"4. Resolution - Invite Fat Lady to dinner,"<
Very Baaaad idea :((
I did that once, many years ago (in a moment of carnal weakness)... and she's still calling :(((
Ken...
Tell the Major lady that I've been really good... on the straight and narrow for a week...
... well, maybe 5 business days ;)
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 11:46:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.54)
Moe, All we want is to see the Fat lady sing.........(over the chipper motor that is)
Placebo Domingo, Terry TLMAO!

Nice exposure job Sir Wes,
"She who must be obeyed in By-Gawd" found the back 20 to be out of spec and I need to remove approximately 4" from the entire area. No shooting today. :-(

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAwD, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 12:18:2moveULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.28)
Add me to that Riffle Raffle for a Rifle !! Several tickets even!! Wow, I might get to Shoot a "Custom rifle" rather than just drool & fondle...heh, heh, heh... Would that be just a rifle or would it include a scope OR could that be another Raffle ?
'Lito, rather than "kitty teriyaki" you might want to try "feline gumbo" maybe even feline fricasse(ms).
As for evidence, I have found that glass marbles & Wrist Rocket do wonders for the "troublesome populations"(figure that for yourselves) If hitting a hard structure they tend to 'disappear'and have a more harmless signature than empty 177 boxes and 22CB brass when they don't fragment.
Out Here
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
Stars fell on, ALABAMA, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 12:40:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.121.234.64)
Case polishing...
Update on the Dillon 2001 case polisher!!
I've had it for about four or five weeks. It has been running 24 hours a day since I go it, and I've done about 500 pounds of brass.
I started out with 93 pieces of PMC 50BMG, to be used at the Drum match... came out looking like it was gold plated... but it was pretty nice to start with. It was a donation from Bruce Robinson, the "Mildot Master man" (Thanks again!!).
Then I went to about 4000 pcs of grungy 9mm that was in a barrel, waiting to go to the garbage dump, cuz it was so crappy, and I couldn't get it nice looking with the RCBS drum thingie... all of it looks like it is brand new, unfired brass... and is now sitting under the Dillon 1050, waiting for 4000 bullets.
Then I did 1000-1200 .308 cases for Ken Hunter... Palma and Camp Perry pick-ups... good brass, but dark from long storage... it came out beautiful.
I have used only corn cob... even on the 600 pieces of 50BMG that was found in the bilges of a Florida PBR ("Patrol Boat-River" for you young puppies)... the stuff was black, covered with green verdigris, and dried salt :((... now looks like gold.
I'm doing the last of it now, and it will be loaded with API, LRT, M1-Blue, and M48's...
Some of what I've learned is this...
If the brass is real dirty, like range pick-ups, clean it first.
Wash it in hot water and mild soap to get the sand and junk out... you'd be amazed at what a dead June bug in a case, will do to your groups (and your peak pressures ;)... and what sand will do to that $BIG custom Redding or CH4D sizing die :((
Then clean the cases with Iosso case cleaner (http://www.iosso.com/).
Dry the cases with some form of heat... if it's just a few hundred pcs, then use a hair blower... if it's a large volume of cases, use the oven, and set it to 300-f, and leave the cases in for a few hours.
For the medium... I started with Corn cob, and Dillon blue case polish... it's very good, but slow. I ran out of the Dillon, and I had some Iosso case polish, so I switched to that.
That stuff is very fast, but leaves a faint film on the cases... this stuff is a commercial polish, for industrial users, and it's intended to use a a follow up with a second pass with clean corn cob with polish.
But I found that if I added the Iosso polish, and an equal part of "Midway" case polish, then I got the best of both worlds... the Iosso is fast, and the Midway keeps the film cleaned off... and the cases are beautiful.
I typically run a batch for 4 to 6 hours, if it's real dirty, and an hour if it's not bad.
Corn cob... buy the cheapest you can... it all comes from the same Iowa Corn Cob Faerie.
The cob attracts moisture, just like baking soda, so keep it dry, or it will cake up... check the insides of bottle neck rifle case, to make sure that it isn't clumped up in the case... the case/media separators are a good idea, if you are doing .223, and 308 type cases.
They will loosen any caked cob, and empty all the cases.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Tryin' to be good in the face of temptation... so many Cats, so little time ;)) in the cat abundant, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 13:19:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.54)
SNIPER OPERATIONS IN EL SALVADOR:
Interested in any info on the above which won't violate OPSEC. Interested mainly in employment, operations and results, particullarly vs enemy tax collectors.
Thanks in advance.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 15:06:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Count me in for tickets.
With regards to the site; I like it in its current form.
Semper Fi,
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 15:07:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.91.132.192)
Gents,
Where'd we lose the "good Jen"? Was she just a communist agent sent to gather all our "secrets"? Will start posting "Lady and Gents" when we hear from her again!
Sinister Dave...we had to get you out of hiding some way. Glad my ploy worked. You have to much to contribute to the list to remain silent.
peteR...So, "she who must be obeyed in "by-gawd"" has you moving earth. Damn, my heart goes out to you. We are looking at houses this afternoon. Hope that I can stay where I'm at, but that will depend on the job situation. When and where I find one...
Monday, job search begins in earnest. Also, buy first lottery ticket in my life...just hoping!
Perhaps range time this evening, if I get lucky. More later in the week.
Anyone hear any reports from the field on the "new" USMC M40A3?
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 15:40:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.38)
Bravo- I will send you the address from my home computer tonight. I did not notice a leg tiring difference, but I kind of do balance it off on the other side with a 6004 thigh holster with a Glock. Glad you finally like something made after 1960 you ornery cuss! HA!
Lito- just got sent a Nightforce NXS with the Illum mil dot. In comparing it (unmounted still) to the Leupold Illum, the NXS illum is a much more field proof design and a more usable reticle. Ok- see - you were right on Leupolds design not being all that keen. I have seen the light! Say AMEN brothers.....
Hexa- I had used to Blackhat packmat for sevral years. Had. It works well as a gun carrying shooting mat, but its main flaws are the cargo capacity is dismal and its folding design means you throw mud/snow/etc back onto the gun when you recase it. It should be redesigned for more cargo and so it folds the top parts to each other.
The good thing is that when you don't zip it closed, and if you don't mind a bit of gun stock peeking out- this will hold your extra long gun.
I have seen and tried out the brand new Eagle dragbag/etc. Nice work that will be getiing a NSN. What they don't tell you is that it has a kind of modular webbing design on one side to allow different pouches to be attached on the outside. A good all around design that I may get to try out on an extended basis.
If I wanted a dragbag- this would be the one. It is on the Eagle website but they neglect to mention the outside pocket feature.
Hope this helped-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 16:41:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)
'lito.... Alternate Option:
1) Invite Fat Lady to see collection of Oriental crockery.
2) Show her to collection (in basement).
3) Make Kimchi (smelly Korean food) out of Fat Lady and cats.
4) Donate dish to Sheriff's Dept. picnic.
5) DENY...DENY....DENY!
Bolt.... Funny Monkey dance....but can he shoot?
Wes..... 6.5x57 Mannlicher? Sounds like a rare one. What sort of trouble are you having that leads you to suspect the chamber, if you don't mind my asking? I've got a couple of M-S's (carbine & rifle) so I'm curious about yours.
Riffle raffle?.... sign me up!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 17:38:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.68.29)
Will (Rogue308@mindspring.com),
"...WEBMASTER..." - you've got that spelling slightly wrong my friend. It must be:
webMASTER
hehehehe :-)
Byron,
regarding the "cookies" - that is exactly the idea I had in mind. If you go back a whiles (about a month? or is it more?) you'll see I mentioned awhile back about the Roster. And the fact that I'd like to add the option "see only posts the last xx number of days".
But that will probably mandate the use of cookies, or alternatively that one has to log on BEFORE reading the Roster. Obviously visitors can log in as "guest" and the default settings (whatever the heck that might be - haven't decided yet!) will apply.
I know you guys in the States are very touchy about cookies, that's why I mentioned that they're not so important - ways and means to get around them, though that means more work, and probably slower speeds.
Charles,
Emporium? Well, that'll come - first sort out the important stuff, then the other. I first want to get the Roster working, then slight changes and it will work on the Emporium. One will be able to edit one's own post (on the Roster not delete, just edit, else complications might set in), as will be the admin users (myself/Garry/peteR/Scott/Ken - Ken does it on the server in any case). Thus we will be able to quickly fix anything posted that is a bit off. And the guys will be able to edit their spelling errors and what-have-you out.
In-stream pictures? I BANNED those, as they can take too long to download. Links can be made like you did in your post. (BTW, because of the security issues with that, cross-site scripting etc., I will be removing posting HTML, but will make provision for additional URLs to be posted.)
Ken,
I'll be working on the multiple posts as well. Posting window will be a separate pop-up. The "submit" button will self-destruct... I mean disable when hit, and will only reactivate if an error occured. And the window will disappear once a post has been made - so no chance of the strafing we had now. (You guys should have seen Scott back in the old days when Sniper Country was still Dave's site - go back and read his post of his buddy in Arab country somewhere (he called the diaper-heads or something) - he posted that "book" 7 times. Yes, SEVEN!)
Raffle?
This sounds an interesting idea - maybe we need to look further into this. Ken, how easy is it to set up the additional email so that we can get an idea of the possible interest?
Guys, maybe hold fast a bit - we need to look at this before going off. We need to make sure we gather enough to buy the stuff that needs to be bought. Thanks for the idea, though - it is appreciated. And I tihnk I speak for us all when I say that.
Now to download and read again - but first this to post.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 18:11:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.125)
Put me down for a couple of Riffle Raffel tickets! Mildot Masters and Riffels! I could come out ready for a match. Some Serra 175's or a keg of Varget would shure sweeten the deal.
Lilo' ever call the cats into your yard with a mouth call? (other than here kitty, kitty)
Which scope is beter IYHO for shooting pds and yotes? Leputa M1 or M3?

Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 19:05:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.189.3)
Scott's "diaperheads" story - I just had to go dig it up.
Posted back 10. May 96 13:08:
Marius
=======
Beriut, early 80's. A marine sniper I will call Mark made a slight error in his land nav and ended up
one waddi too far out. Both he and his spotter found themselves in the unenvialbe position of having
two rather irrate diaperheads pop out of the ground, shove a knife into Marks ribs and fire a round
into the spotters chest. The two marines managed to dispact the locals and survive the encounter.
The spotters wound could be considered a minor miricle. The round that struck him hit his sternum
and shattered. It failed to penetrate anything vital (although I'm sure the spotter considered
himself pretty darn vital at the time!). Mark survived to come back and hunt again. The following is
as best I can recall his converstaion to me several years ago. Mark, if your out there I hope you
don't mind. You told it pretty well, I hope I can do you justice! Please forgive any liscence I take to
tell it properly!
After recovering from his wound the sniper was assigned an AO overlooking an area that contained
an old oil drum. This was a rather large affair and made a perfect range marker. The locals would
creep in at night to drain off some crude to start their cooking fires. One evening the sniper and his
spotter simply couldn't resist the chance to screw with the opposition a little. A knife wound in the
chest does tend to give one a bad attitude.
Our intrepid marksmen waited until the band had started to settle in around their fires and at an
opportune moment, dropped a round into the drum. At the GONG the militia scattered into the
surrounding darkness with much chattering and arabic profanities. Mark and his spotter quitely slit
their guts laughing over the whole incident.
Figuring that things had settled down for the night the two snipers went about doing what snipers
do. Observing, noting, and quietly waiting. After an undetermind amount of time, and much to the
surprise of the two marines, the band of locals crept back to the tank and started their fires again.
This was just too much for the young duo so after a short conversation they repeated the previous
engagement. Same Results. Off into the darkness the diaperheads went.
Now at this point let me interject a comment for the politically correct amoung you: Diaperhead
was the term Mark used often when refering to his targets. If you have a problem with that, tough.
Try to shoot someone while thinking of them as someones elses father and you will see the need for
deragatory nomenclature. But I digress!
Anyway, the evening went on as before. After a short time the cheeky little buggers crept back and
started up the fires again. Desperation may drive men to act irrationally but Mark just figured they
simply had wound their Diaper too tight. This time he waited until food was well under way and the
smell of it wafted toward his possition. Taking very carefull aim he laid his cross hairs on a
particularly sucullent hunk of lamb? and went into his breathing routine. In. out. in. Puase halfway out
again. Crack! The meat exploded as the .308 slammed into it, driving wet goo all over the startled
goumets.
Having broken a prime rule of sniping, Mark and his buddy almosts paid for their hubris. You just
don't want to piss off 30 guys with AK style weapons! That third shot gave the bad guys just enough
of an idea of the marines firing position they they turn enmasse and leg go with every rifle they had!
Our two mischeivoius heroes burrowed into their fighting position as a hail of buzzing projectile
snapped around their hide.
The nights "fun" was definately over.
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 19:34:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.125)
Add me to that Riffle Raffle for a Rifle list!! I'm a Riffle Raffle riff-raff kind of guy! Several tickets even. I don't mind contributing to the site operation because I'm learning good stuff here. The prize just makes it easier to part with the bucks.
Will, your suggestion to 'Lito, to try "feline gumbo" maybe even feline fricasse(ms)" makes me think you might be a Cajun. Sounds like a down-home dish to me.
As to new format, I'm new enough around here not to have strong ties to the present format, but it does have its charm. To those who want to only see the new postings, have you tried the reverse chronological roster? You get to see the answers before you get to the question, but that's not all bad.
Burst-mode prevention will be an improvement. Till you learn how to use the present one, at least a double-tap is easy to do accidentally.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 19:35:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.123.15.155)
Gentlemen!
Been observing your AO for sometime now. A Super Duper Hot Rod Rifle Raffle? Count me in for $100

I've been waiting for someone to declare a .300WSM project a success but have heard very little(read none)except for lukewarm reports on factory skinny bbl hunting rifles. I have a fresh 700 action that needs a home and with the new WSM looking so much like a big 6PPC you'd assume(I know, A S S U M E)it would be a winner.
Thoughts?
D.
Dano <dogface@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 20:22:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.49.58.207)
Lito'.........
On the tumbler......they are the cat's meow, (No pun intended!)((:
I have had a model 2000, for at least 13 years, and it's NEVER missed a beat.....
Even putting 10-15#'s of old 118's, or any other booolet.....makes em' like bran steenken nuevo....
Another really good cleaner is Flitz.....you can run it in the tumbler and it will do the same Boootyful job.
For any rookies who may be lurking...be sure to NOT deprime the brass before tumbling.........do it once, and you won't ask why.
Question to all.......I have a dial type torque wrench, for my actiones screws....it goes to like 200 inch #'s.......Snap On variety.
I use it for rings, and I could use it for my bases.
However, I want something Smaller, that will work for ALL....
Don't want a Seekonk, and separate dial type, heard the click type are no buenoski......
Idea's..........welcome.
Got an idea, a new nickname for lito'.........
"El Grande Gato Sniper!"."
Pete, me n' Placebo are TITE!
Two Shoes
Polishin' my ONE bullet, in Tejas
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 20:23:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.178)
Wes: 6.5 Mannlicher
Make a cast of the chamber. Your rifle might be chambered for the regular 6.5X54 Mannlicher. I've seen two Steyr-Mannlichers marked 6.5X55 that actually were chambered for the '54. The bolt would ofcource not close at all with '55 rounds. I've also seen two S-M mod SL carabines marked .222rem that was chambered .222remMAG! Go figure...
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 20:51:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.212.93.33)
What's all this huffle-ruffle from the babbling rabble about a rifle raffle? One would have to be rattled in the baffles to treat this as a piffle.
IOW, I'm in for $50 minimum (can I win a taffy apple?).
Steve "El Roto" G.
El Roto <gopack@sprintmail.com>
Carrollton, TX, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 21:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.26.230.75)
On 300 WSW, I have a Brand New JGS Match Reamer and Headspace guages ready to go for those of you wanting the 300WSM conversions on your Remington Short or Long Actions. Brass is a little hard to come by at this point but I have a couple of cases of Factory Win, heading this way.
Conversions on short actions will require the adition of a Sako Extractor and feed rail Mods. Long action Mags will only require the feed rail mod. Have plenty of barrels and stocks here ready to go Any Takers??? Just think you could be the first to report back to the Roster with Data/Review this Cartridge!!
On the Raffle Gun, If this turns into a Go contact me Ill build a special rifle for this group to be insanely buying tickets for. A "ROCK" would fill the bill I presume. Special Price for SC if this is going to be a fund raiser.

Back to Work,
George

George Gardner, G.A. Precision <A10XRifle@aol.com>
Kansas City, MO, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 22:22:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.188)
I'm in for the riffle raffle too, $50.00 will do.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damasucs, MD, USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 22:37:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.179.123)
Dos Sapatos...
The Seekonk "snap" wrench is really good... small, fits in your kit, no muss, no fuss.
Get it from Premier, cuz theirs has snap in both directions... other guyz have snap to ighten, but don't take them off.
George...
I'm glad you're offering to do a "Rock" for the auction. I'll bet your bullets aren't falling down vertical, and streaking the target at 800 yds... I'll do $100 in tickets for a "Rock" riffle raffle!!
'lito
(El sniper de los gatos, de las senoras muy GRANDES ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 06, 2001 at 23:47:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.14)
Hey all, well I thought I would report in on my Jerry Rice from this weekend tactical shoot. I took it to the Sacramento Mudville Militia Tactical Match. It was a beautiful day. Slight wind but not enough for one to determine windage accurately. Had to read the mirage and then some. The mirage from 200 out to 600 went from right to left at about 5 MPH. hard to tell if it was either full or half. Wind flag didn't help much. From 600 to 1000, the wind went from left to right. Once again it was hard to determine what direction and speed. At 1000 yards I had set my windage to only 1 MOA left to hit my target consistantly - wow, what a feeling :) I must say, it was a very odd day for reading and adjusting for wind.
Coming in we took above the shoulder shoots at 600 yards and did four UK distant shooting. The first two were from the prone, the second and third was from either the kneeling or sitting - what ever you choose.
Alot of good shooters and a lot of fun that day. My rifle performed great. It shoot where it should have and only the dope behind it needed to be operating properly. Luckly the dope behind the rifle was. I took second place. What a fun weekend.
Darren...
Semper Fi

Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Fran, CA, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 00:00:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.126.134.27)
I have learned a lot from the SC site, and from the fine folks that hang out here on the DR. So you can count on me for some raffle tickets. (I figure my chance of winning anything, ever, is exactly the same whether or not I buy tickets!) So I will just look at it as doing a little something to support the site.
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 00:41:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.196)
Howdy Hogs,
Count yet another lurker in on the riffle raffle sniffle snarfle... well, you know what I mean! $50 worth anyway! You'se guys have helped me a bunch.
Flattop <BKFlattop@aol.com>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 01:48:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.206)
I haven't been reading too closely, but - if there's a raffle to support the site - I'm in for $50.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 02:13:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
You can add $100 more in rifle raffle support funds.I enjoy the witty banter and helpful shooting knowledge that flows freely on this site.Sometimes other things flow freely but thats part of the Duty Rosters charm.Anything to help support,I think a raffle is a great idea.
drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
Hillbilly, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 04:03:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.188.203)
Count me in for the Riffle Raffle. Maybe the supplier of the riffle (George?) could offer the choice of a few different calibers, as well as right or left hand actions.
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 07:10:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.62.26)
All you Hogs and Hogettes - if Jen is lerking - hang in there gang we are working on the Riffle Raffle. We'll let everyone know when we have our act together.
Thanks for all the interest and support!
Sarge and the rest of the Sniper Country Staff
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 10:35:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.234.201.55)
http://www.netside.com/~lcoble/books/sh23-9-6.html
I thought these were no longer obtainable, but it looks like this fella has copies of the vintage USAMU Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide, Army Small Caliber Ammunition Data Sheets, and the Special Text "Hits Count". These are vintage 50s and 70s texts from the days when soldiers could read, and if they couldn't the drawings and cartoons were aimed at least at the 9th/10th grade level.
The Long Range Rifle chapter of the USAMU guide was written when the unit was shooting the 30-338 Mag for 1,000 yards (vice the 300 Win Mag), and it is a good basic primer for the very long lines. The service rifle back then meant the M14.
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 12:02:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.15)
Morning Hogs..
Been busy with court so haven't had time to BS just keeping up with the BS(HA).Count me in on a couple of tickets.
Just wanted to let all you Savage guys know that Lock, Stock & Barrel in Valentine Neb. has stocks for your Savage tactical rifles in several different styles. They look a lot like H&S stocks from what I could tell. I think these are the same ones I seen at a gun show and they are nice looking stocks with a bedding type of block in them.
If I was a Savage man I would own one. If anyone is interested I will post the number for them later(Its at home). Back to work!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 14:31:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
A Roster Hog Rifle Raffle? I'm in. Set it up. I couldn't pass up the chance at winning a genuine "Rock".
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 14:55:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.114)
I'm rationed one good idea a year and I blew it on youz guyz :(
Seriously, I'm glad everyone is so enthusiastic about the idea.
Thanks George for the offer to do a "snipercountry special".
Lito, stir-fry is good but I prefer caTAMALES!
The lupita should be a seperate raffle IMHO.
iiii's <mikelsam@cox-internet.com>
Siloam Springs, Ar, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 15:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.46.107)
Gent's..........
Question for a bud of mine.
This is an area I have zero knowledge in, but, I know a lot of you do.
He is/has asked Which of these units is the best to purchase for a flat top 15 clone.
Trashco Pro point Plus(CDCS), model I assume.
OR
Aimpoint A Mil Xtra XO????
Please advise what/ which one to go with..........
I don't have a clue what they are, much less to give advice...
Except when I see Trashco.....that's a good indicator to go the other way..maybe NOT in this application.......
Thanks
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 17:40:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.161)
Dillon case cleaner:
I've one of the Dillon case cleaners. It's the bigger size of the two. Have had it for approx 3 yrs. Never a malfunction.
I use corn cob media, and the Dillon case cleaner sometimes. Have also used/added a small amt ( 3-4 mls)of Hoppe's #9 with good results.
Also, when preparing kittens for either stir-fry or chargrille, it will do an admirable job of defurring: add 3-5 small to med. sized kittens (preferrably dead), 30-45 mls acetone or denatured alcohol, run for 60-90 minutes. They come out clean, ready for deboning and/or marenade..
Raffle me in, too.
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Hotlanta, GA, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 19:51:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)
Terry-
for a AR-15 red dot sight- get the Aimpoint Comp M or ML. The difference is the M in NVG compatable and the ML has more brightness control. Tough as hell, long battery life, and parallax free. None of this applies to the Tabasco.
The price should be about $350, maybe less on a good deal. He will also need to get a rail and better rings- I like GG&G. The GG&G ring contains a spare battery compartment also. ARMS makes good stuff also.

Hope that helps-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 19:56:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)
Terry:
Ref the Aimpoint mounting. The ARMS 22M68 with spacer will put the dot right on top of the front post where its supposed to be. A 50 yd zero will give you a good BZ out to around 200 yds. with M193 or M855 (SS109). Also recommend the ARMS #40 flip up rear sight.
Don
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 21:19:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.180.5.221)
Terry-tell your bud to check out this link for a real good price
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=19900#lastPost
Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 22:39:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)
Shoes -
Torque wrenches - Brownells carries a very nice, compact adjustable in/lb model. Only drawback is it costs ~$170!
I just picked up a 3/8" drive in/lb adjustable from Sears for $68. Good price but somewhat long, ~15 inches. However, it will make a great bludgeon for CQB work!
Red Dots - Trashco? What, are you nuts, amigo? Aimpoint Comp M with the 3MOA dot is the way to go. I've fired a couple and they are very nice. Shop around and you can find them for ~$300. Try swfa.com.
Aimpoint is coming out with a new improved version (M2) that should drive the price down on the current M model

Rifle Raffle -
Somebody says "Hey, let's have a SC raffle!"
George Gardner offers to build a "ROCK" for the raffle.
Everybody coming outta the woodwork for the raffle.
ROTFLMAO!
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, May 07, 2001 at 23:12:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.54)
On the subject of the Aimpoint.....Anyone know about those Trijicon sights for a flat top (ACOG)i.e. brightness, durability, sight life, mtg. ht...Am looking for something that doesn't require batteries...Never thought I'd have to explain $50 for a chance at winning a rock in a raffle to the Dear Wife, but if it's for the benefit of the folks who put such a fine effort into this site, CMI.....
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 00:10:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.204)
Rosterhogligans..........
Thank you all for the feedback, I now know what to tell him....
And he can make the choice based on your experience, and use.
On the Rafffle for the Riffffle, please post details as soon as available...
I Do want to participate, regardless of raffle item/s, etc..
Thanks.....(;
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 00:34:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.191)
Mark Smith-
are you referring to the reflex type or 3.5 x 35 or 4x32 sight?
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 01:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)
Torque wrench
I ordered from Harbor Freight (www.harborfreight.com) a ratchet torque wrench. It has 1/4" adapter attachment, it works in 20-200 In/lbs range, weighs 1 lbs and is 10" long. So even this version is a bit heavy to carry in the woods but for workshop use this is reasonable.
These are made in China so the price is very affordable 26.95 USD plus S&H. Alltogether 37 USD and some change.
I would have preferred a 15-150 in/lbs but it seems nobody manufactures them at a decent price. It seems it is VERY easy to spend 150-200 USD for a name torque wrench. I do not need it so much to justify the high cost.
I know cheap Chinese product may, or may not work, but I took the chance anyway.
Hexa
Hexa <juhola@luukku.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 01:03:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 38.31.122.108)
Count me in on the raffle for the riffle.
Only snake to be found in the 90 dgree heat at Mudville was guarding the rear left wheel of MY truck. 4 ft gopher snake.
Darren did good w/ his Rice gun, but Bill whipped everybody with his OOTB Remmy Varmint in .308. I got elevation #s on a new load and finally put all three in the chest at 1000. Won't talk about the rest...
And speaking of dipshits (me), that's the last time I leave the cuff to my Mike Miller sling at home. "Sitting" at the 200 and 300 rapid fire. Been a LOOOONG time. And Darren remembered HIS cuff. LOL.
Vicki took third. (Always places high). And Bob Jackson took 4th. Good job, Folks.
Semper-Fi!
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
Merced, kal., USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 01:13:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.223.76)
Mike T.........Reflex........
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 01:19:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.73)
Mark-
just FYI- the Aimpoint has up to 1000 hours on a battery.
The new Aimpoint M2 has a ten year battery. Yep-10 year.The M2 comes with a 4 moa dot, the M and ML have 3,7,and 10 MOA dots available.
Now on the the reflex. In advance I will tell you people will disagree with me...but it is not a good sight for you. For military conditions of engagement (very dark)-it is fine and the tritium (no batteries) is the real military advantage. Tough as hell too.
The front of the reflex has a nice mirror finish so you can signal your target with your position. LOL. This is solved by purchasing a polarizer or filter which blocks out a lot of usable light. Not good.
The glare problem is tremendeous. The dot tends to get washed out in bright light. Trijicon acknowledges this and will be making a reflex that a mini cyalume fits into to help this. Try looking into a dark area with strong light behind you...the glare is bad. Kind of like looking into a dark home during daylight.
Now try going into a dark area after being outside for a bit. You wont be able to see the dot. It isn't capable of being turned up brighter like the aimpoint.
Most people just take this out to a range, try it out there in the day, maybe a little at dusk...but not with any other lights, flares, explosions or rounds going off the other way. This is where it fails in CQB.
For police work and regular joe work-go with an aimpoint. The reflex is a poor choice for you IMHO. Military field use is a different matter-some one else with more experience there can comment on that much better that I can.
The ACOG scopes though- very tough, very nice...and you can get the model that suits your needs.
Hope this helps-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 03:20:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)
Mark Smith
Mike T and I have some issues with the Reflex - he hates it a lot more than I. This is part of a small write up I have be banding together (though it has some photo's)
Trijicon Reflex RX01NSN
The most compact of the sights tested, the Reflex, seems to have a love it or leave it following. The tritium light source provided battery free operation and day/night hands free operability. The yellow dot is easily picked out under most conditions and the polarizing filter (included but optional for use) can be tuned to allow the 'best' contrast for the Tgt background. The click adjustments are very positive - using an Allen key (slot would have been preferred) in ½ MOA adjustments. The mount and sight body are fairly rugged. The hood on the Reflex is larger than most ‘heads-up’ type of sights - giving better protection to the fragile lens than the others. There were some worries that the dot would be visible to the intended Tgt but that is not so - I had a partner aim the M4 (empty) at me at ranges from 3-25m and even while concentrating on the Reflex (hard to do with a muzzle in your face -tunnel vision and then some). Accuracy was fairly good 4” @ 100m out of a Colt M4A1 - likely due to the way the dot was clearly contrasted to the Tgt and a aiming mark could be repeated. The Reflex was compatible with both head and weapon mounted PVS-14’s giving a day/night immediate readiness in whichever format the user chooses. The reflex was also compatible with the various bolt on iron flip up and did not comprises their use. The lens cover also provides a sacrificial window so dirt and mud etc can be quickly wiped off with out damage to the lens proper. The body did in no way obscure the FOV and this sight. The light gathering face was in fact shiny and I did not like that fact in a field duty sight. Mike Tkac reminded me of this and I went out and sure enough the light glints of the sight. This glint/reflection is especially troubling when the polarizing filter was removed - the entire face of the sight shines. The polarizing filter caused more headaches as it exceptional dark and can not be adjusted to a neutral setting (just less dark)
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 03:22:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)
Mike the issue RX01NSN is a lot better than the previous fare.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 03:23:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)
Oh yeah-I for one have never had a 10 year tritium sight actually be usable for that long.....
Kevin OTGWN- your smashed and trashed M4 sight review ready yet? You have a more military perspective than I do.....
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 03:26:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)
Gents,
I'll keep this short.
Brother Bravo got handed some tough news today, at work. I'm not at liberty to discuss it, but we should be prepared to lend him our support as he needs it. He'll divulge what is going on when he is ready.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 03:52:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.125)
Mike T - smashed and trashed is almost done - just waiting from some photo's to be developed -
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 03:59:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.140)
Rosterfarians...... one of you had a question about a Springfield 1903 on the Roaster about last week. It turned out to be a low-number, so you passed. I just came up with a Sprg. 1903 #1,4xx,xxx w/bbl. dated 4-31 so it's safe. If you're still interested in one, e-mail me. I wouldn't normally put a sale on the Roaster but I forgot who it was that posted last week.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 04:01:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.130)
Gents,
AWESOME DAY! Job search continues...
Post office had certified package from Canadian Shooter and friend Zareh Ohanian. Package contained a Canadian Unertl 10X! You got it!
Our northern brethren purchased these from Unertl and they are USMC pattern to a tee...
Only visible difference is the C3 UNERTL marking and it is regulated in Meters vice yards (I'm told).
Zareh has offered to let me mount it on my M40A1 clone and play. May be just too tempting. He has a line on another, but they are spendy. These single guys get all the fun and goodies.
Re-sized 6.5 x 57 and trimmed reformed brass for final attempt on the mannlicher. If this doesn't do it we are just going to rebarrel for 7 X 57 Mauser. Probably a better choice anyway.
All for now.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 04:19:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.73)
Moe,
"Riffle-raffle, ... ROTFLMAO"
I must say, I agree with you! I look at this and I just cannot believe the guys! Before any of us at SC could even say a thing we already had promises of Mildot-Masters and an offer to build a rifle - not to speak of the about $1000 soft-commitments already made! And that just on a suggestion from one of the fellow visitors!
But I must admit, it makes one feel that all the work and time into the site is worth it if you guys respond like that. Thanks.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 06:53:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
Well Marius, perhaps you got all the donations and compliments because quite simply put, your site rocks!
Couple other things....
Just before Mike left (he will be back on the 23rd guys) he comitted to throwing in a Tactical Intervention Specialists sling into the prize pool. (He did not mention a model but I bet he'd let ya choose).
Marius - I think I failed to explain myself well enough in an earlier post....
> Emporium? Well, that'll come - first sort out the important stuff,
> then the other. I first want to get the Roster
> working, then slight changes and it will work on the Emporium.
I was using the other site's "emporium" as a format-style example of how posts could be removed not as an example of a for sale suggestion.. the idea of being able to edit or remove your post appealed to me. It wasnt meant to discus sales just format and features of the roster.
> One will be able to edit one's own post (on the
> Roster not delete, just edit, else complications might set in),
> as will be the admin users
> (myself/Garry/peteR/Scott/Ken - Ken does it on the server
> in any case). Thus we will be able to quickly fix
> anything posted that is a bit off. And the guys will
> be able to edit their spelling errors and what-have-you out.
Excellent. just what I was thinking. (except I did not know removals could botch the system.
> In-stream pictures? I BANNED those, as they can take too
> long to download. Links can be made like you did in
> your post.
The inline photos I know you banned cause they take too long to load on a single page format such as this. I AGREE for a forum in this format. What I meant however was that in using the other format of BBS you can afford the DL time for the pictures as they are loaded singly with each persons individual post. Readers can simply not wait for them to DL and hit their back button if they finish reading before the photo comes in. Thats obviously not practical on a format like this where everyone gang-bang.. er I mean gang-posts.
With that BB software, you do not have the onerous download of 40 photographs all at once.

Having said that....
Your customers generally appear to want to keep this format so it is a moot point anyhow :-)

Bravo:
Whatever the bad news is I hope you and yours are okay. Good luck man.

Charles - of MemorablePlaces <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 07:59:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
To All:
Had to happen sooner or later.
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I'm flattered as hell.
Check out:
www.ada.ru/guns/ballistic/Mildot/Master/
Accept no substitutes!
Best Regards,
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 08:51:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.254.238.46)
Jeff A.,
How about Basalmic Vinegar instead of acetone? Give a hint of Mediteranean(SP?) flavor, Anti-Kitty Anti-Pasta?????

Bruce,
It Figures! :-( , and the 7.62x54R cartridge showed prominantly on it.......... Hope they remembered to double the spin drift calculations to compensate for them funny letters.

Chao!

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 10:58:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.47)
I,ll take a coupla raffle tickets. Dunno how I'd go gettin a custom riffle thru the customs gestapo but I'll give it a go.
G.W out
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
gettin cold, in occupied, oz - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 11:11:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.87.27.184)
Mildot Master
Bruce, The Russians will still copy anything they can rather than design their own.I know that has to really piss you off.
drmarc
drmarc <drmarc@se-tel.com>
HillBilly, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 11:42:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.70.186.61)
Count me in on the raffle.
Stan, hope all works out. Let us know if there is anything we can help with.
Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
Just North East of BY GAWD, PA, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 12:55:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)
FORMAT/RAFFLE:
First, I like the format the way it is and thank Marius for all the hard work.
Second, can we buy raffle tickets by credit card? It's really my only option aside from wiring it into somebodys account (that somebody means somebody from the site leaders, so the rest of you wipe the cheesy grins and beady eyed looks off your faces!).
Hope everyone is doing well and thanks again for your work Marius. If this goes forward, you can have my raffle tickets in appreciation for your work (the ones that don't win...)

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 13:03:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)

Forgive my nearly non-topic intrusion, but I see a few posts from fellas that are apparently hunters seeking info on suitability and techniques relating to hunting. Some of thier posts go unanswered or are not topics generally discussed here.
I've been involved in BB sites discussing Long range Hunting for a long while now and finally a friend of mine has started his own forum to discuss Long Range Hunting sans ethics. Many hunter types don't visit this site and can't benefit from the learned types that frequent the DR. So here's an little invite to stop by and chat with some long range and ultra long range hunters on a non-compete basis only.
The site is www.LongRangeHunting.com
Thanks
Dave "Doc" King
Now back to the regularly scheduled programming.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 13:58:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.126.21)
Doc, I think you've picked us a winner with the LongRangeHunting.com forums. I think this would make the perfect comapnion for our board as far as the shoot it and eat it board (non-sniper stuff, but with enough overlap that it's relevant -- maybe it should be a link?).
Check it out, guys.
Will be out of the net for a few days for the Atlantic Fleet and All-Navy rifle matches at Dam neck, Virginia. If you have an M14 or M16 clone and are feeling froggy, the Excellence-in-Competition matches are on the 10th and 16th of May. See the Navy Shooting Team site at www.usnst.org (click the events button).
Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 14:17:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.88.228.15)
Bruce,
What I want to know is... how'd you find that page?? I can barely even say my name in Russian anymore... don't use it, you lose it, and I was never good to begin with!

Sarge and Marius,
As you suggested, Sarge, I was going to belay my pitchin' of money at ya 'til you tell us that you're ready, but since Marius made the comment that it made it all feel worthwhile, then I'll go ahead and join the throng and say "I'm in" on the raffle, at least for a couple of 'em... (whatever I can manage to sneak past the missus' money radar! 'She who must be obeyed' would find something else to spend it on if she knew what it was going towards, so I'll have to be subtle...
;-)

Wes,
A couple of years ago I tried tracking down a Unertl via the Canadian route.... had a couple of leads, but none ever panned out. Not like I could afford it really, but given that I didn't expect to fine one I thought it'd be interesting to try...

Bravo,
Hope all is well, and getting better.... Best o' luck....

In regards to Format:
Marius, I see your point about making it easier to copy threads over to the 'Hot Tips' section as the relevant posts will be all together in a bundle, per se. Biggest reason for staying in the current format, IMHO, is that it's kinda unique.... I visit several other boards regularly, and this one is different than all of the others. I still go to the other ones, and I like 'em fine, and if the board changes I'll still be here, but if it doesn't change and stays the same I'll not gripe one iota....

L8R,
-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 14:54:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)
Doc Dave King: Just a question on the 155 Scenar loads. How did they work out for you in the LRR class. Winds, elevations, etc ? Just curious because I want to give them a try in a short barreled 308 that's being workrd on. Might even be good in the 300 WSM..
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woddbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 16:26:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)
Tony Y
I've shot those 155 Lapua bullets on two different trips to the LLR classes. I'm getting 2875+- fps using RE15 and I'm sure this is at the upper limit for pressure with my gun.
Elevation is certainly the biggest change, only use 28MOA up at 950+ yards, 12 MOA at 580 yards and 7MOA at 440 yards. This is at a minimum 2 MOA less than the 175 MK at 2650. Many of the other folks were using 33MOA for the far target while I used 28MOA.
Wind is another matter because there isn't as much correction as elevation. For a 10mph full value the most I 'save' is 1MOA on the far target, this would of course double to 2MOA for a 20mph full value wind.
One thing that I don't care for with shooting these is that I can't easily assist another shooter using factory loaded 308 rounds. My in-the-head data is not correct for the 175 loads and we overshoot the target or have too little wind.
There's something to be said for using the 'standard' load and that is that everyone knows the data and can help. Shoot something different and you're on your own and in fact may become a liability if need to assist another shooter.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 17:20:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.126.111)
Sinister Dave wrote:
"The Archery Shop is selling new Leica Goevid Laser Range Finder binos for under $2,000. "
Thanks for the heads-up Dave.
There are two Geovids available: The 'BD' and the 'BDA' models. The 'BD' model is strictly the same old Geovid rangefinder. The 'BDA' model is the rangefinder with the built-in compass. At a price difference of $800, that needs to be one helluva compass.
Regards,
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Beautiful day, in Colorado, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 17:59:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)
Dave "Doc" King thanks for the feedback. I'll have to check the 155's against 168 VLD's and 175 MK's. What I'm looking for is around 2700 fps out of a 20" barrel. My Ballistic 5.0 software has been very close with coming up with charts for various calibers for me that I've used at SMTC on a few occasions. Have you done any playing with the Lapua 170's? They have a BC of around .525 if I remember correctly but seem hard to come by.
I know what you mean about the team communications, I've been through the sniper courses using a 300 win mag and my partners used 308's. I also prefer 1/4 MOA turrets as opposed to BDC's so there have been differences in other classes too. What makes the difference is when you and your partner keep good records in your data books and trust each other for proper wind calls. Then your both usually on with the first shot no matter what you shoot with.
Well thanks again...
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 19:01:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)
Someone asked about charging tickets by Visa for the upcoming(?) raffle.
This sparked an idea... Ken and Marius et al, you might consider setting up a Paypal account in order to give your readers yet another option of securing tickets.
I have not personally used it but when MaximumKids.com was owned by another person they used it to pay one of the editors with good results. People can use their credit cards there so you kinda kill two birds with one stone.
Paypal is used by lots of folks into the online auction thing (anti-gun Ebay etc). It might be worth looking into.
Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 19:17:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
Hey guys,
I'd let you guys count me in for the riffle raffle too, but being a poor college student, I just can't do it...but I'll be there in spirit ;) Anyways, I got a question for youz guyz about barrels, (hopefully JR will come out of the woodwork) and more specifically Gain Twist barrels...Any experience with them? Right now I'm using 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips in my Sendero 300WM because of the velocity I can get out of 'em (I use 'em for Antelope), and if what they say is true about gain twists (an increase of 100-150fps) I could start launching 180gr pills at the 165gr velocity. Sounds good to me, but I'm not about to make a decision like that without consulting the DR :)
"Doc"
Thanks for the heads up about the LongRangeHunting.com site...will check it out.
'Lito,
still ROTFLMAO...(el sniper de los gatos, de las senoras muy grandes)
God bless, all
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
Big Sky Country, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 19:32:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.26.77.42)
I'll pony up for at least $50 in lottery tickets!
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 22:09:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.68.120.249)
Fricken communist pinko's. Copying the mildot master!!! You commy fag camel molesters could have had the decency to send a few of those things to Bruce as thanks for inventing the thing!
One question Ivan? Do you guys ever invent anything on your own that you don't rip off from other countries? Oh yeah, I forgot about those extra small condoms that you guys had to invented for your naval infantry thugs with penis's the size of 5.45mm rounds.
Out!

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 08, 2001 at 23:50:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.213)
hey guys my Dad's has couple of late seventies early eighties Aimpoints they dont use batteries. . . their blinkin radioactive!
no kiddin they actually got some radioactive junk in them to make em glow! one is the "fine" dot about 2-3 moa and the other is a "heavy" dot about 4-5 moa
you keep both eyes open on these scopes as they do not magnify just superimposes a dot onto your target there fairly quick i thought about one for my mossburg 500 riot but went with williams ghost rings instead and a flashlight/pressure switch (whatta wabbit gun!)
do you have any info on these ? worth/history/ anything!
out the barrel; off the rocks; through the bushes
nuthin but splatter!
Jason
"Zero"
Jason <Scion3@hotmail.com>
Sharpsville, Indiana, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 00:06:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.64.247)
hey guys my Dad's has couple of late seventies early eighties Aimpoints they dont use batteries. . . their blinkin radioactive!
no kiddin they actually got some radioactive junk in them to make em glow! one is the "fine" dot about 2-3 moa and the other is a "heavy" dot about 4-5 moa
you keep both eyes open on these scopes as they do not magnify just superimposes a dot onto your target there fairly quick i thought about one for my mossburg 500 riot but went with williams ghost rings instead and a flashlight/pressure switch (whatta wabbit gun!)
do you have any info on these ? worth/history/ anything!
out the barrel; off the rocks; through the bushes
nuthin but splatter!
Jason
"Zero"
Jason <Scion3@hotmail.com>
Sharpsville, Indiana, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 00:06:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.64.247)
hey Gooch . . . yesa the russians did invent something cool the best battle/assualt rifle ever (i can feel the flames already;))
THE Automatic Kalashnikov rifle calibre 7.62 x 39 adopted into mother russia's T.O & E. in 1947 aka the AK-47 assualt rifle, "When you have to kill every M******F***** in the whole G**D*** room accept no substitutes" Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction i prefer it over any m-16 ar-15 varient anyday anyweek (they have too close of tolerances)
you can open the bolt and throw in a handful of sand and it still wont miss a lick! like the old enfields and mauser bolt guns reliable as all get out and you cant go wrong at $200.00-$250.00 all day long
they rock!
ducking and covering
Jason
"Zero"
Zero <Scion3@hotmail.com>
Sharpsville, in, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 00:22:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.64.247)
Count me in for the riffle raffle! Any news on whether the Pay-Pal option is gonna be used?
Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 01:53:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)
Jason - how big are you hands? Tritium is not dangerous in the levels they are found in sights.
Raffle - I'm in
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 02:02:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)
Thanks Mike and Kevin for the useful info. I appreciate it, and will probably take your advise if I can get used to the idea of having a battery on one of my guns......
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 02:05:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.182)
...And now if anyone has any "adviCe" as to where one might find a good dictionary;)..........
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 02:09:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.182)
Jeeze, not the AK v M16 again. I guess if you dont know how to clean a rifle or care if you hit what you are aiming at the AK's are fine. Funny how they came up with the 5.45 round after we developed the 5.56.
Peace love groovy
Out

Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 02:37:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.8)
Whatever is up with Stan, I hope he is OK, and stand ready to help in whatever meager way I can.
Gooch, you are crackin' me up!!! ROFLMAO!!!! I feel the same way, but to see it in print on the roaster just gets me.....
In regards to sniping around the yard (but not quite cats ;>)...I am a cat lover...chuckle..but with no use for "outside" cats, they take too much game such as pheasants, etc.):
The "Battle of the Freshly Planted Garden" began last night with a very satisfying 80ish yard shot on one furry and masked varmint that the wife spotted transiting the yard at dusk. .22LR remmy Thunderbolt 40 grn solid outa the 'ole Marlin M60. Crack! (one thousand one...) SMACK!
Abandoned house across the road at the end of my driveway is full of the damn things so perhaps there is opportunity disguised??
Count me in on the raffle, amount TBD.
Take care hogs!
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 02:57:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.95)
Ok - Kev's smashed and crashed Optic test is done.
I sent it to Mike T to get his input - but also sent it to Marius so they could tear it to pieces.
I give you a hint - I got a C-More Tactical for sale.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 04:02:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)
>>1800 lurkers out there to pony up with the money
I guess this would be me.
If you're keeping score I'll take one winning ticket, but put me down for $50 just to make it look good...
For all the knowledge I've gained here, I'm happy to help support the site. Besides...where else can I learn the fine art of gourmet cat preparation ?
later,
Jim

Jim <kastner@sprynet.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 04:32:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.204.204)
Someone wrote; "...the AK-47 assualt rifle, "When you have to
kill every M******F***** in the whole G**D*** room accept no substitutes" "
Golly Gee-Whiz! That's not consistent with my experience, but who am I to argue with a dedicated fan?
Put 'em on semi, get a nice sight picture, and press the button once per customer. Hollywood is bullshit.

CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 05:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
Does anyone here have any experience working with Sam Johnson of Answer Rifles in Michigan? I sent a rifle to be muzzle braked and to have the action trued plus some other work. I sent it in February. I call every Friday to inquire about the progress and for the last month and a half I get the same answer. All that's left to do is lap the bore and Nylite it. They had told me that to Nylite it only takes a couple of days so what gives? Any advice from the roster?
Thanks,
Jim Wise
man that stealth in the emporium
is looking mighty tasty, but the missus would
kill me!!
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fl, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 12:13:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.36.28.85)
Ah, something I am very familiar with...
The debate between the M16 and AK-47. Just as a background, I have owned both and been involved in testing on both (in the private industry). I have put well over 50,000 rounds through each design in both range and field conditions.
The myth about the M16 being a jamamatic is just that, a myth. Yes, it should be cleaned periodically, but it is not a rifle that will jam every time you pull the trigger like many would have you believe. I have had both M16's and AK's jam on me in both semi and full auto. I have had the handguards on an AK catch fire, and I have warped the handguards on the M16.
Both rifles are excellent guns, they do the job they were designed to do exceptionally well. both have drawbacks such as the M16 being more sensitive to debris (I have never found this to be an issue) and the AK being very innaccurate (which I have found to be an issue).
Today, I own an M16. I have not had any problems with it at all. I will admit that I do care for my firearms and I don't neglect them. I have put well over 3500 rounds through a test M16 before I cleaned it and I had no problems. But for my personal guns, I keep them as clean as I can.
Just sharing my thoughts.
Mike
BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 12:55:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.207.211)
Put me down for $50 worth of riffle raffel tix.
The DR is great, I have learned quite a bit from some of the folks here and this is a very cool way to generate some funds.

PJC <mywifeiscrazy2@yahoo.com>
Upstate, SC, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 13:15:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.19.49.2)
Being a Certified Movie Geek, I must correct the attribution of Samuel L. Jackson's AK-47 quote. It was uttered in "Jackie Brown", not "Pulp Fiction".
BTW, I'm this >< close to getting my first rifle and I owe a big "Thank You" to SC. I found a great deal on a PSS system on the Emporium and (fingers crossed) should have it in my hot little hands before too long (TH, You Da Man!). Time to order a cleaning kit and a Mil Dot Master, I reckon.
Steve "El Roto" G.
El Roto <gopack@sprintmail.com>
Carrollton, TX, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 14:30:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.33.186.238)
Bravo update...
He's not having a heart attack, or suffering from a car crash (though he might prefer either)... he's just going through one of those things that I've become expert at (3 times), but he's cool ;)
'lito
(El grande sniperdoro de lo todo mundo de los gatos... de las senoras muy grandes con mustacheas negra ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 15:06:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.99)
Please keep the format the way it is, i learn a lot by reading it and many time's learning thing's i would think to ask about.

back to lurk mode

Wade
Wade <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
wa, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 15:34:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.52.12)
M16 JAMAMATIC MYTH:
Most myths have a basis in the truth and so does this one.
When the M16 first entered service it jammed all the time. Yes, part of the problem was due to maintainence I am sure. Another part was that they used a different type of powder in the ammunition which was not part of the plan and it caused alot of problems.
Was I there? If not how do I know?
No I wasn't in the Army at that time, so I never saw it. However, every squad leader and above I had when I came in was a grunt in Vietnam and thats the info source I rely on.
That and the fact they put a forward assist on the rifle (hence the M16A1) which indicates to me that there must have been some kind of problem, otherwise they wouldn't have needed the change.
The new M16s are great rifles, particullarly the M16A2 and theres no disagreement there.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 15:44:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Howdy Hogs,
I am also a poor college student who just got married, so funds are few and far between. Especially with trying to put the both of us through Texas A&M University, but I'll go in for 1 - 2 tickets, to support this site. This is the place to go if you want to learn about sniping/shooting.
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 17:28:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.91.221.23)
K guys, I did some reviewing of my financial situation, and I decided that I can spare $25 for the roster...I just got a job last week at MT amory (C. Sharps Rifles) and will be learning how to make 'em...hopefully I can give you guys some insite[sp?] like so many of you have given me.
Bravo,
Hang in there buddy :)
'Lito
Once you've had a moustache that's black, you never go back ;)
(tried to make it rhyme, oh well)
Still no word on that gain twist?!?!?!?
God Bless, all
PS, check out the LongRangeHunting.com forum....I joined and it seems like it's gonna be a great place.
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
Big Sky Country, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 18:02:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 153.90.171.14)

'Lito,
My Spanish is rusty, so check me here:
"The Great Sniper of All of the Many Cats of the Very Fat Ladies With the Black Moustaches"???
LOL!!!!

I'll stay clear of the rehash on M16s versus whatever.... I was just a happy ol' grunt when I had my 'A2, wouldn't have wanted anything else...

L8R,
-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 18:07:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.176.6.34)
Gents,
Bravo update: Pablito has it right. Stan is OK and trying to sort things out. I'll be talking to him today and will NOT divulge anything we discuss. I will say that he's had a shocker and is doing as well as the situation allows. GIVE THE MAN YOUR SUPPORT!
AK vs M16: Both superb platforms. I'd be happy with either. The new 5.45 X 39 round is a solid performer in a smaller package. The russkies finally decided the .22 cal was the way to go. Albeit, with a 60 grain projectile. Recoil is negligable. Got to work with one two weeks ago including the Russian "aimpoint" system. VERY nice.
Was making solid hits on bowling pins at 150 yards.
Please note: I DON'T include the FN90 in this category. Several countries and units have used them and gone back to the 5.56 X 45.
Me, I'll stick with my pre-ban AR Carbine lightweight or CQB M4 flat top...
Of course that's if I'm not carrying my MP5 or Uzi full auto...;-)
My personal choice for down and dirty is a good 12 Ga. shorty properly set up.
Count me in for Raffle Tickets.
Keep the list as it is, format wise.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 18:09:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.220)
Kevin OTGWN-
I misunderstood your email and didn't see the attachment. Please excuse the lack of email comprehension. I will check it out asap.
Wes- not calling you out on this (as I TOTALLY agree) but can I get specifics on that FN round users who switched back? Reason being, a team near me asked for my opinion (first mistake) and I want to provide them with more, if it is available.
Bravo- keep the faith. Will email tonight.
My opinion on the roster....don't care. it would be nice to have a way to go to new entries rather than scanning the list. Maybe a general discussion folder and a loading folder, etc...
Take care-Mike T
MIke T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 18:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.238.112.27)
I just pray that I didn't jump-start that dead dog AK thread. It was DONE TO DAMNED DEATH a few months ago.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 18:36:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
Well I know exactly nothing about the m16 but for what I have read. So those with much more experience than I on this forum have a greater contribution... However I have run across a pair of articles written by a Major Dick Culver who had very little good to say about his EARLY M16 experiences...
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html
A quote:
"Essentially we had been reduced to a "magazine fed, air cooled, single shot, muzzle ejecting shoulder weapon" shooting an inferior cartridge. How lucky can you get?"
Just more fodder...
Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 19:41:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
Well I know exactly nothing about the m16 but for what I have read. So those with much more experience than I on this forum have a greater contribution... However I have run across a pair of articles written by a Major Dick Culver who had very little good to say about his EARLY M16 experiences...
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html
A quote:
"Essentially we had been reduced to a "magazine fed, air cooled, single shot, muzzle ejecting shoulder weapon" shooting an inferior cartridge. How lucky can you get?"
Just more fodder...
Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 19:41:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
Correct about the powder being switched in the ammo for the M16. That is where the myth came from. I call it a myth because it was a military screw up that got blown all out of proportion.
They switched to an older ball powder to meet the demand by troops for ammo. This caused not only a faster and nastier buildup of carbon and other nasty stuff in the gun, but due to the powder being designed for larger .30 caliber rounds, it had a higher pressure and increased the cyclic rate of the M16 beyond normal operating specs. this caused premature wear and breakage in the parts. Auto sears were prominant victims of this problem and they had to be replaced after several thousand rounds instead of several tens of thousands of rounds.
The last part about that powder was that it created higher temperatures than the IMR powder that the gun was designed to use. This also contributed to problems as the residue left by the ball powder would melt and begin to gum up. This gumming was a result of the calcium the powder used to retard the flash.
Basically, 90% of the problems that contributed to the jamming reputation of the M16 stem from the ball powder used to supply the demand for ammunition by soldiers in Vietnam. Since that powder is no longer available, the problem has disappeared.
Mike
BCR #226 <michaels226@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 20:37:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.101.181)
Was just wondering about the benifits and merits of cryofreezing rifles.
My bro got a freezer big enough for a barred action upto oh say 28"
anyone know about how to do this?
The freezer goes down to 150 below I'm not sure that is cold enough I thought I remember a company called 173 below thad did brass instroments to give better sound and action. For example A guy did a trombone and it sounded better and the slide worked better aswell as the valve in the back.
With all these Wise riflemen someone should be able to tell me about the process and whether or not I can do it with my bro's freezer. The more details the better. Those that contribute can have a something frozen for only the price of shipping. IF possible with this old freezer. It is yet to be seen whether it will work I plan to do a shot gun first. Then my win 70 heavy varmint 308 nickel fluted. If it works I would love to help any of yall for all the knowledge you have shared with me we will work something out.

THANKS
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 21:22:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.202.108)
I'm looking for an AR gunsmith. Damaged my preban AR-15 lower receiver. I installed a new safety (no name, I bought at a gun show) and it didn't work right. When I tried removing it I used too much force and the safety retaining pin broke through the lower receiver wall. Damage is not severe and I'm hoping it can be fixed. I can provide pictures of the damage if needed.
thanks
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 21:55:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.6.60)
Hi Ladies and Gents,
Lurked for 2 weeks and was blow away by the caliber of shooters and archive data! Had to register.
Although a newbie to SC, I'm not new to shooting. Have shot benchrest, skeet, IPSC, Steel, and Cowboy for years.
Military duty was with the 3rd Armored Cav, lst Squadron, East German border (Fulda Gap)in the early 60's (guess I'm an 'old hawg'). You guys are going really laugh at this...when the Regiment deployed to Germany in '61 we turned in our M1, M1d's, BAR's and got brand new M14's (Cavalry and Airborne got 'em first in Europe). A Cav platoon has an infantry squad and while we had the 14's our sniper weapon was the M2 carbine with night scope!!! Can you believe this? Lot's of rate of fire and the incredible range of 50 yds! We had a Winchester rep with the squadron for the firest 6 mos. to help with any problems. Only we had was frying the walnut handguards on full auto! Winchester quickly replaced them with a ventilated, plastic one.
We did participate in the early development of the M21, ART cammed scopes, etc. I'll save that for another time.
A newbie question: Are we all 'hogs' or is there an elited group of 'hogs' in-country?
scubashooter

scubashooter <jcolsen@netzero.net>
Richmond, VA, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 21:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.71.164)
Hi Ladies and Gents,
Lurked for 2 weeks and was blow away by the caliber of shooters and archive data! Had to register.
Although a newbie to SC, I'm not new to shooting. Have shot benchrest, skeet, IPSC, Steel, and Cowboy for years.
Military duty was with the 3rd Armored Cav, lst Squadron, East German border (Fulda Gap)in the early 60's (guess I'm an 'old hawg'). You guys are going really laugh at this...when the Regiment deployed to Germany in '61 we turned in our M1, M1d's, BAR's and got brand new M14's (Cavalry and Airborne got 'em first in Europe). A Cav platoon has an infantry squad and while we had the 14's our sniper weapon was the M2 carbine with night scope!!! Can you believe this? Lot's of rate of fire and the incredible range of 50 yds! We had a Winchester rep with the squadron for the firest 6 mos. to help with any problems. Only we had was frying the walnut handguards on full auto! Winchester quickly replaced them with a ventilated, plastic one.
We did participate in the early development of the M21, ART cammed scopes, etc. I'll save that for another time.
A newbie question: Are we all 'hogs' or is there an elited group of 'hogs' in-country?
scubashooter

scubashooter <jcolsen@netzero.net>
Richmond, VA, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 21:58:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.71.164)
Bravo,
Hang in there buddy. Been there, done that, and it wasn't worth a damn; but it wasn't terminal. Life will get better. Just be happy you ain't a pooosy-cat living in 'lito's neighborhood.
Savage guys, (No. Not you in the robin-egg blue pumps and the blonde ghillie!)
Called Lock,Stock, & Barrel today to check on the Savage stocks. They are mailing me a catalog. Evidently there are several different types from the Choate types to HS types. Prices range from around $115 to the $200's. The guy said they had already sold over fifty of them. Will pass on the info when it arrives.
Called HS Precision last week to let them know I would sure like for them to make a stock for Savages. After epoxying an aluminum bar in my Savage stock, with the sling swivels screwed into it, the bloody stock is still a flexible POS.

Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 22:03:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.251.140.90)
Andrew:
Re your AR15 Lower receiver problem, I put the problem to the AR15-L list and asked for responses. Hopefully will get some as there are very knowlegeable AR15 types and smiths there.
Don Smith <smith934@hiwaay.net>
Huntsville, AL, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 22:21:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.180.4.82)
Ben...
>"Once you've had a moustache that's black, you never go back ;)"<
Yup... that's what SHE said ;)
Leslie...
My Spanish is rusty too ;)... I got the nichname in the 60's when I was an instructor and was the only one that spoke (very broken) Spanish...
When I first posted here about 3 years ago, Ken Hunter thought I was a 20 year old latino from East L.A. HA!!
Imagin his suprise when we paired up to shoot the Carlos Hathcock match together, and his new partner turns out to be a 6'5", Scottish/Cheyenne "CatShooter" ;)
Spoke to Bravo this afternoon, and he's rcovered from the initial shock, and is on his feet, and getting it together... He'll be back soon.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 22:44:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.112)
......Concerning use of films for reliable reference material when choosing tools and methods of use.....To say that "Hollywood is Bullshit" demeans the bull.....
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
LakeCormorant, MS, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 22:55:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.78)
Wow see what I started! Impressive!
um in Kevin of the GWN my hands are of normal size for a guy of 69 inches tall and while i understand it's probably in safe levels i do not think that it was tritium used in these scopes you see i also have tritium 3 dot sights on my Colt Combat Comander 70 series .45 acp
and they died in 3 years also sorry about the pulp fiction mistake tarrentino films all look alike to me. . . where's those raffle tickets? oh yea hey lito ever given any thought to a .257 ackley improved? my brother has one that spits 75 ballistic tip bullets at around 3500 fps it is hands down the most devastating cat buster i have personally ever seen; splits them in two! and head shots let me tell you that it the most gruesome thing i have ever seen to date
i loved it!
Jason <Scion3@hotmail.com>
Sharpsville, In, USA - Wednesday, May 09, 2001 at 23:40:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.64.86)
SCUBASNIPER:
Welcome to the board!
Don't let your age worry you, Pablito is so old he farts dust!
PABLITO:
FYI or (Para Su Informacion/PSI) Sniper in spanish is:
"FrankoTirador"

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 00:12:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
....Jubilant Delinquents Have Tiny Eyes......
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant , MS, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 00:30:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.59)
Cryofreezing -
Or more appropriately, Cryogenic Treatment.
Big Will, save your freezer for the ice cream. It ain't gonna do squat for your barrel except make it real cold!
Cryogenics is a process that works at the molecular level of the metal in question. As I understand the process, the metal is slowly cooled to minus 300 degrees, held there for 20-30 hours, then heated to plus 300 degrees and slowly returned to room temperature.
The result is to relieve any inherent stress in the metal therefore making it more efficient. In our case, a more accurate barrel.
Anybody with a REAL scientific understanding, jump right in!

'lito,
I had my son translate your "title." He about cracked up and fell on the floor laughing! He is really concerned about the company I keep!
Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 00:40:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.163)
Thanks Don. I've heard from folks on AR15.com, that John Norrell may be a possibility. Called Bushmaster and Fulton Armory and neither were willing to help out. I'm trying to save my lower so I'm looking at any possibilities. I haven't shot the AR in over 2 years. It's depressing.
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 02:23:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.6.60)
Jason - was wondering how much sand they could hold LOL
- you talking about the OEG's? -iirc, they are tritium
'lito,
- you're the 'xpert if anyone can give advice to Stan it is you.
Mike M. can you give a divorcee deal?
-on the roster it would be nice to start at the place we last left off/new business.

Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 02:38:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)
Andrew, can you send me the pics of your AR lower please? I am curious as to your problem.
Doc I am bummed out that epoxying your stock didn't work out and womdering what went wrong. I just got a digital camera, so I will take some pics of mine and email them to ya. Mine seems to be pretty good. Do you have any pics you can send?
I have drooled over the McMillan (A2 I think it is?) but when you are cash short, using a Simmons scope with like 1" of eye relief, AND the stock costs as much as a decent Lupita, well, ya know. The Lupita will come first, for sure.
As a newbie handloader, I am excited to report that I got my backstop done tonight, and will get to shoot my first lot of handloaded 168grn Sierra BTHP match / 43grains Varget / CCI benchrest primer .308's out of my Saa..Saaaa..Savage tomorrow...thanks to 'Lito for a big assist. YEEAHHH!

Out
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 03:16:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.52.109)
Andrew -
You can contact John Norrell at SMG1022@aol.com. He doesn't have a website. Email him for a catalog which you can download and print out. It's only 4 or 5 pages.
He does cosmetic work on receivers which may be what you're looking for.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 03:32:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.187)
Just a lead, T.H.E.I.S. (Tactical High Energy Impact Systems), Warren Jensen of Lost River Ballistic Technologies (creator of the 419 gr. bullet for the .408) and myself (THEIS is the owner of the .408 design) are going forward with the development of an advanced tactical calculator/computer for extreme range shooting. The general format will be in the question / answer format... example
Ammo?
Range?
Slant angle?
Air Temp?
Air Pressure?
Ammo Temp?
Advanced features will be correction for Coriolis effect, automatic spin drift and if we get out way, an remote system for automatic data dump of the above inputs directly into the computer.
There will be multiple inputs for windage and direction, plus automatic remote dumping for a wind meter at the gun position.
Am also working an advanced rangefinding concept working with GPS... can't say more about that. Any features that you guys might want to include that I haven't mentioned. PLease let me know. All is possible..
There will be NO digital readouts on the optics. The gun system will not be altered. This is a stand alone calculator.
Thanks,
Dean

Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 04:02:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
Jim Wise... The reason so many of us have gravitated toward the technical side of our favorite toys is the twilight zone effect of "Gunsmith Time". A "few days" is approximately 6 weeks. "Two weeks" can be conservatively estimated at about 4 months. 6 months is easily a year. Etc. With care and Brownells, we can do most of the easy stuff ourselves.
Bravo... Hang in there. Deep breath. Concentrate on the good things. It will pass and you will better for it.
On the AR-15 selector switch fiasco, hate to break it to you but it's done. I don't know anyone that can fix a slab side breakout. Maybe the factory will replace it with a re-serial part.

Bill0294 <lhardin21@netscape.net>
Clearwater , FL, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 05:04:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.92.204.23)
The lower receiver is made by Essential Arms and I the company folded a while back so getting a new one is not an option. I'm not even sure who bought them out.

Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 10:21:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.95.116.202)
I've been looking at scopes to see which one would be the one to mount on my rifle.This is what I came up with
WINCHESTER MODEL 700 STEALTH,.308 CAL
SHEPERDSCOPE MODEL 618-V2-6X18X40
What do you think? Would this be a good combination for a novice
tactical sniper?
marcus r thomas <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
perry, georgia, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 11:30:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.144)
Andrew,
bite the bullet, order a new Bushmaster lower, and mark it up to experience.
Like the man said, a side breakout on that brand lower, or any other for that matter, is NOT worth the hassle or your time.
Get the Bushie, it's forged, and likely would not have broken in the first place.
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 12:28:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.188)
Count this newbie lurker in for at least a couple of riffle-raffle tickets...
Tomac <tomac42@earthlink.net>
Caldwell, Idaho, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 13:24:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.15.127.239)
This morning I finally got around to pulling the Vari-X III LR M3 off my stealth. It is off to Premier Reticles for a mil-dot. The scope was mounted with Badger Ordnance rings, which were NOT lapped and a Badger Ordnance one piece tapered base. After a very close inspection of the tube I am pleased to report there are no marks, scratches or blemishes what so ever. Maybe I just got lucky but I feel this is testimony to the precision work the folks in Gladstone are producing. More kudos to Badger Ordnance. medulla762 out
medulla762 <medulla762@yahoo.com>
Land of Stealth, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 13:39:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.153.135.212)
Gents,
A buddy of mine yesterday pointed out that he thought Ghillie suits were forbidden by the Geneva Convention. Tried my best but couldn't find anything to that effect. Does anyone of you have a clue what he is on about?
L8er!
Stefan
Stefan de Wilde <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 13:40:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.221.170.178)
Morning Hogs..
For all you Savage guys I have the phone number for Lock, Stock and Barrel in Valentine, Neb. Its 1-800-228-7925 just tell them you want info on the new Savage stocks that they had advertised in their last flyer. They look just like the H&S stocks.
Bravo..
Hope things are getting better for you, like I said if you need to talk don't hesitate to call.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 13:55:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
Stefan...
I don't know about specific bans on ghillie suits... but combatants not in uniform, are considered "spys"... and TUD (terminate upon discovery)... which is why so many snipers kept the last round for themselves. The had no protection from any conventions of war.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 14:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.94)
'Lito!
I know that, but what if you, like me, base your ghillie on an issued BDU and even keep the little red-white-blue flag (that is featured on Dutch uniforms) in place? You would have modified you uniform but upon close inspection you would still be in uniform...
Not that it would matter since the average would still cap you, but I'd like to know...
Take care,
Stefan
Stefan <sniperhide@run.to>
Someplace, Somewhere, The Netherlands - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 14:23:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 193.221.170.178)
Gents
I need the number for Walt at TechniCarbon Dynamics. Thanks.
Semper Fi!!
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
va, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 14:47:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)
dean:
I'd be very interested in the long range calculator you mentioned. I'll bet just about every long range guy would be interested in one. If you can make GPS work for range finding, I'd like to know. I tried using it for elevation changes and distance (in lieu of a rangefinder) but gave that up real fast as the real and theoretical error range made this a joke.
doug
doug <doug@intertrust.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 14:55:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.3.163.3)
There are not a whole lot of prisoners taken in infantry combat anymore(at least not when both sides want to fight) At the small unit level it's going to mostly be ambush-counter ambush stuff which doesn't leave a whole lot of mobile prisoners around. Wounded guys who can't walk are going to get capped. Maybe if they are Captain and above they might get hauled out for intel value, but regular crunchies are going to get the coup de grace because no patrol leader will be willing to have two or three of their troops carry out an enemy troop who has little intel value. Sorry, that's just how I see it. As everyone has seen, the rest of the world outside NATO doesn't really treat their prisoners worth a damn. So getting captured is a "Bad Thing"(TM) My ghillie is based on a set of cammies, but I have no illusions that it will matter. Enemy grunts don't seem to like snipers for some strange reason(might be because we kill so many of them) and so I really doubt there will be the option to surrender. They are just going to try to dig you out with arty/mortars(if they have it) or else just chew the hell out of your pos with MG's while they conduct an infantry asault. Neither offers much hope of capture. I doubt the ghillie suit will even be an issue. Semper Fidelis....
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 15:00:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)
This is a re-post of something I put up on a 50BMG site, reguarding Dean's idea for an ultra long range ballistic computer...
=================================================
Good morning Dean... (well, it WAS until now ;)!
Many of the minor issues will be gobbled up by the biggest, and the most unpredictable... the W-I-N-D.
We debated spin drift to great length (for about a week, and 20 pages), some years back, on SniperCountry... and as you know, it's almost a non issue at 1000yds, even in no wind... maybe a few inches. however, even a light wind will introduce an aiming error/correction of several feet, so spin drift gets burried in the minutia of the much bigger error.
Same with Coriolis... at 1000yds, it's hundredths of an inch, "IF" it has an effect at all on small arms (hurricanes, and theory don't don't apply here, if you can't measure it!!... and no one has).
But for 50BMGs, and .408 CTs, 1000yds/mtrs ain't much to brag about... some folks use that for a basic "Zero" ;).
If we stretch our legs a bit and go to 2500 to 3000yds... the factors get insurmountable!
First, Coriolis is a linear constant... maybe a few hundredths at 1000... three times a few hundredths at 3000, so it's a non issue...
don't waste your time on it.
Spin drift out in the distance is cumulative, and increases with the square of the lateral fall of the projo, times a surface constant.
It is not calculatable, because nothing is known about the rotational loss of small projectiles at that distance... if you shoot a 750 A-Max at 2700, in a 15" twist barrel, you start off with 3375 RPS... at the beginning of the flight, there is no drop, so there is no spindrift... as the bullet starts to fall "sideways" and flow aerodynamics take effect, the ball starts to slip sideways... but with a light bullet (compaired to 16" artillery), the spin rate of the 750 A-Max will fall quickly... how fast?... nobody knows, cuz it's an extreamly expensive study... and it won't be the same rate ar a 647 API, or a .408 CT.
There is no constant rotational fall-off rate, it depends on how much energy is stored in the rotating mass, and the surface friction on the projo... and in small armes, it will be all over the place.
But... the WIND. This puppy will kill any long range program.
You can know the wind speed, and direction at the shooter's site... but that's the place that has the least meaning, for a really long-range shooter.
A slippery bullet (BC=~1.00) fired at 2700, will be floating out in the atmosphere for a long time, and will run at very high altitude for much of its journey.
With a 2000 yd shot, the peak of the flight path will clear a 6 story building on the way to the target.
With a 2500 yd shot, it will clear a 10 story building, and for a 3000 yd shot, it will clear a 20 story building... that's a lot of exposure to a wind that you can't measure, either in velocity, or vector... and the errors at the target, even with a mild (and constant) 5 mph wind will be on the order of 20 to 30 feet... and 5 mph is nothing for a wind.
There are no methods to measure the wind across the full distance, and at the altitude the projo will fly... and without that, everything else is window dressing, and minutia.
Any, and I mean ANY ballistic computer, used past 1000yds/mtrs, that can't accurately track the wind, speed, and vector, over the entire bullet path, is just a toy for those that believe that gadgets with "Lotsa science stuff" can do the impossible, and will always throw money at impossible dreams.
When Ken Hunter and I shot the Carlos Hathcock match, there was a faint breeze on our face at 12 o'clock, the 300yd flag was straight out and flappin at 9 o'clock, the 600yd flag was straight out at 3 o'clock, and we were shooting over a valley, and the flight path was about 150 feet over the ground... and in terms of really long range shooting (1200+), this match was a walk in the park!
(At least we're back to talking about shooting ;))
"Pablito"... RBPA!
(Resident Ballistic Pain in the Ass ;)
Here kitty, kitty, kitty ;)
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cat... the other whate meat ;)... in the, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 16:35:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)
SNIPERS/POWS:
Lots of truth in what was said about this post, however, I have to disagree with some of it.
First, we haven't had a lot of POWs taken due to the fact that all our conflicts since Vietnam have been relative cakewalks where we outgunned our enemies so badly we enjoyed very one sided victories.
These one sided victories have evoked a level of confidence/cockiness at the national level which may well bring us a wake up call in the future.
I don't believe that this will always be the case and that in any real war as opposed to our most recent actions, we will deal with the issue of POWs.
SERE training (Survival, Evasion, Resitance & Escape) is of extreme importance to the sniper and while I acknowledge the credibility of some of the things that were said,I certainly don't agree that it should be discounted by any means.
And as far as capping POWs, I don't agree with it. Ask any S-2 for an evac for a live POW fresh from a battle and they will get support to extract him if at all possible, regardless of the individuals rank.
Sending a live POW to the unit is likely to be more valuable than shooting a few of his buddies. Not to mention that murdering helpless soldiers, be they enemy or not is against our code and should not be done except in an incredibly extenuating circumstances and it is still against our laws.
And not all American POWs are murdered. There are many countries who recognize their politcal/propaganda value and do not want to enrage the US by murdering them. I realize thats not always the case, especially with armed gangs of animals like in Somalia.
But, most national forces will tend to refrain from such acts and so should we. If not for tactical reasons, because we are Americans.
GHILLIE SUITS/GENEVA CONVENTION:
They are not against the Geneva convention. If they were, we wouldn't be requiring them in the US military.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 17:05:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
I seen that Pablito posted his response here, so I thought I would keep the discussion going. Good to see you guys. Here we go...
All your points are correct Pab...
However, you're thinking projectiles in the current and past sense. Warren Jensen is currently patenting the first bullet that actually gains ballistic co-efficient value as it goes down range. Now I know that'll spin you up, but the brains at Yuma, Aberdeen and a couple of other places have suddenly gained a high interest in the project.
I shot the gun in Idaho. I calculated the elevation settings using my own tried and true methods as well as windage. I was in error on windage by as much as 40%, the spin drift (and I disagree with you completely on it's factor, i've spent years shooting at 1500+ meters in now wind and have photos and video of the effect. In a now wind situation, with M118 ammo out of the M-24 SWS, it's a miss at 1000 meters in a now wind situation. Granted I wouldn't shoot it at 1000 meters either.
Coriolis effect is based on where you are going to shoot, and the relationship of the gun to true north and south, nearness to the equator ect. With that said, this system is going to take EVERYTHING into account and leave nothing to potential error. That's why Coriolis will be considered with the spin drift.
Winds are predictable if you have access to data to do terrain wind patterning. I did that in Idaho with some success, but I wasn't on the ground long enough to analyze it. The special operations long range game has the operator on the ground for hours or days ahead of the shot time. Plenty of time to do the number crunching.
The factors are not insurmountable. In Idaho, I checked a zero at 200 yards with a 3 shot group after removing the scope base and machinging it to get more elevation out the Mark IV scope... windage was out of center so we were getting tube / erector cell interference. Once that was corrected, I used a 20" theodolite to lay in a target East - West at 2300 yards. The group was 1.6 MOA (horizontal dispersion) and sub MOA vertical dispersion out of a barrel with 5 rounds after a cleaning. The winds were taken at the gun position only, and reading mirage and other indicators, the most important being terrain patterning. Elevation was absolutely perfect using a GAINED BC value. .903 is the standard at the barrel for the 419. I used a .91413 (that's a sea level standard value, 1.0300 actual at those conditions. Registered the elevation setting on the gun, and put three shots into the target.
I do like your arguements, think out of the box though. Warren is patenting this design, it's that important.

Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 17:08:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
"Just give me a 308 & a shotgun & a Bottle of homemade wine. Drop me off on a mountainside where the bear and the deer reside, Spend my nights sittin at the bench making shells for shots that hit the brain, And I'll be doin fine underneath the pines while the world goes down the drain."
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 17:14:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.202.90)
Dean... you're a piece of work, ma' man...
>"However, you're thinking projectiles in the current and past sense. Warren Jensen is currently patenting the first bullet that actually gains ballistic co-efficient value as it goes down range. Now I know that'll spin you up, but the brains at Yuma, Aberdeen and a couple of other places have suddenly gained a high interest in the project."<
Not so...
Doesn't spin me up a bit... and the patent will fall on it's face.
Sierra has many bullets that have higher BC down range than at the muzzle... by measuremant, not guess and theory... that means there is what is what the patent office calls "Existing art", and unless your bullet has machanical design features that have never been made before (a very hard thing).. it will fall flat, and be rejected.
Even the moldy ol' M48 projo has a BC for around .830-.850, until in gets down range, then goes up to 1.30... by Aberdeen's own protocal.
It won't fly (in the patent office... bad pun, but I couldn't "hep it";)
... and I'm not saying that "Spin drift" doesn't exist... we did this 2 years ago... out at 1500 and past, it gets pretty big, but only a fraction of the wind, so it gets lost in the mix... and Coriolis is such a nothing issue at anyplace on the earth for a flat shooting 2000 to 3000 yds pellet, that it is nothing... you (and no one else) can demonstrate it with repeatability, at this scale.
many people that don't have a grip on what Coriolis effect really is, want to translate it down to small scale, but it doesn't... it is really a "radius" effect, and we did a lengthy thing here about a year ago (ran about a week... lotta data in it!)
>"Winds are predictable if you have access to data to do terrain wind patterning. The special operations long range game has the operator on the ground for hours or days ahead of the shot time. Plenty of time to do the number crunching. "<
NOT... even an airport can't get a grip on their wind patterns, and have wind monitoring equipment ALL OVER THE PLACE, all feeding into a central computer...
... and they are in the same place every day, year after year, with incredablity detailed maps and profiles.
What is the shooter to do, when you roll in with your kit, and need to take a shot, and get the hell out of there (in less than a week or two to gather wind terrain data ;).
Wind is easy to predict in open country with miles of flat terrain like Idaho, or Kansas... or South Dakota, where I have spent more than my share time, whackin' dogs... if you have a 4 value wind (a calm day ;) at 3 o'clock, it's the same wind for miles...
... but try to do the same in the hill country of West Virginia, or any coastal/river country (where the targets really live), and you won't be able to keep track of it, even your own site, in 5 minute intervals... and what you have at your site ain't gonna be what you have a 300yds, much less at 1500+ HA! (as Pat would say).
>"The winds were taken at the gun position only, and reading mirage and other indicators, the most important being terrain patterning. Elevation was absolutely perfect using a GAINED BC value. .903 is the standard at the barrel for the 419. I used a .91413 (that's a sea level standard value, 1.0300 actual at those conditions. Registered the elevation setting on the gun, and put three shots into the target."<
Dean, Dude-ski...
I'm disappointed in you. You can't use a scope come-up at over a mile, to calculate BC... if you could, life would be so easy.
It's because of atmospheric refraction... that thingie that makes a stick look broken when it's half in the water... when you look over hot flats, the target ain't where you are looking at it.
It'll be high, or low, but not where you think, depending on the conditions... so when you use the come-up corrections to "guess the path", and then calc the BC... it's real bad science.
If you want BC at long range you have to use traps, and measure the true speed... and you know that, so don't gimme no stuff about it.
Get a set of Oehler sonic traps, and do it right!!
As to the increase in BC... go through the sierra site, and look at many of their better bullets... about half of them will increase the BC in the first 1000 yds, and that's well before they get down to the speed of sound, where it really takes off.
You need to collect your data on a much higher technical level... high school kids collet data with guesses like these.
You need to "hard measure" your range, not a theodolite :((... and you need to get "Real" velocity measurments... or it's all just voodoo.
"... get out of the box"??? I'm so far outta the box, I gotta run backwards, just to stand still ;))
But I DO enjoy you, and these debates... you definitly stand out in a world of mediocre people ;))
Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cat... the other white meat ;)... in the, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 18:21:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)
Well Said Pablito...
However, the things that you are saying we can't do, we are doing and have done. There are times when mirage shift doesn't occur.
There are times of course when there is no wind, so spin drift MUST be addressed and corrected for.
REAL gain BCs are not as common as you're stating. The ones that calculate out as a gain BC for some reason do not follow a computed flight path using that data. Conventional jacketed bullets can't be made the same way that the LRB CNC bullets are being made.
The patent is going through, maybe a gentlemen's wager on whether it will go through or not? It's gotta be worth it, say something like a 1k scope...
Remote wind sensing technology is not really difficult. It's passive also, there are active systems like the Mistral CORP. device, but they emit an energy source. That could be bad.
I agree with taking data collection to a higher level, that's why we're going to Yuma to use their Doppler range and the acoustic microphone range... just to verify that calculating BCs (actually drag co-efficient) using elevation settings don't work. Funny though, have been doing that method for almost 14 years to 2000 meters with military .50 cal ammunition, and it's been working fine.
I do understand your comment about atmospheric refraction though, that's why we want to do this at night as much as possible.
Winds at the gun, you're preaching to the choir, that's the last place that I consider them anyway. I do take them into account, but I take winds from all over the place.
Just for the heck of it, calculate the BC for a bullet that is supersonic at 3300 yards with an air temp of 51 degrees, air pressure of 26.05, 10% relative humidity at a muzzle velocity of 2890 fps.
Then correct to standard air conditions, see what you get. Then try to explain why the bullet carries so far... had my head scratching.

Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 19:02:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
Well Said Pablito...
"However, the things that you are saying we can't do, we are doing and have done."
you can "Do" whatever you wan't... what I'm saying is, that your methods are sloppy, so your results are sloppy.
"There are times when mirage shift doesn't occur."
Very few... can you setup your missions on days that are "Dead smoke calm"... maybe 20 a year??? I wish I could shoot my matches on those days... That may fly over on takhammer, but it Won't fly over here on SC...
"There are times of course when there is no wind, so spin drift MUST be addressed and corrected for."
Sure... I'll give you that... but you are not dealing with the fact that unless you do true flight tests on all bullets at all ranges, it's meaningless... and when you consider how many truly windless days there are in a year, it'll take you 'til the year 2025 just to get your baseline.
"REAL gain BCs are not as common as you're stating."
Sorry... go to Sierra, and perview theior data... and it was all gotten the old fashioned way... it was measured in the field, not calc'ed from form factors.
"The ones that calculate out as a gain BC for some reason do not follow a computed flight path using that data. Conventional jacketed bullets can't be made the same way that the LRB CNC bullets are
being made."
Sorry... it's the other way... you can't fault the bullet because it's true flight doesn't match the calculated track... you have to fault the program... the bullet flies the way it flies, the program is supposed to match the bullet.
MANY bullets gain BC as they go down range... and that's a fact, not my opnion.
"The patent is going through, maybe a gentlemen's wager on whether it will go through or not? It's gotta be worth it, say something
like a 1k scope..."
If it goes through, that doesn't mean there are not other bullets that do the sdame thing... it's just a fact of small arms bullets.
You'll have to settle for a beer... we're on macaroni and cheese these days...
"Remote wind sensing technology is not really difficult. It's passive also, there are active systems like the Mistral CORP. device, but
they emit an energy source. That could be bad.
I agree with taking data collection to a higher level, that's why we're going to Yuma to use their Doppler range and the acoustic
microphone range... just to verify that calculating BCs (actually drag co-efficient) using elevation settings don't work. Funny though, have been doing that method for almost 14 years to 2000 meters with military .50 cal ammunition, and it's been working fine.
Eh... not fine enough to make the claims that you are making.
"I do understand your comment about atmospheric refraction though, that's why we want to do this at night as much as possible."
Do it at 4:00 in the morning, with atmospherics in the center of a dry "high pressure" system.
"Winds at the gun, you're preaching to the choir, that's the last place that I consider them anyway. I do take them into account, but I
take winds from all over the place."
Just for the heck of it, calculate the BC for a bullet that is supersonic at 3300 yards with an air temp of 51 degrees, air pressure of 26.05, 10% relative humidity at a muzzle velocity of 2890 fps.
Then correct to standard air conditions, see what you get. Then try to explain why the bullet carries so far... had my head scratching.
I'll do that at work, where my smart system is... What are the measurements of the bullet... length, boattail angle, dia of boattail, tangent and radius, or secant... etc.
lito...
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
CAT!... it's what's for dinner ;)... in the, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 19:28:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.68)
Hey guys!
I am just a former lurker who wants to thank y'all for the insightful views and priceless info I get from all the posts. Keep up the goood work!!
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 20:14:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.31.15.192)
TRIGGER 50:
Just to let you know, your buddy JR was asking about you right before I left. He was looking forward to hearing from you.
If you need his contact info, let me know.(my prev. email was dog21@together.net)
Good luck with your patent and all.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 20:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Spin-Drift, Coriolis, Calculators, Earth Curvatue, Magnetic Influence on Steel Core Bullets.... won't make a bit of diff if you do not have a worthy rifle :-)
Which is my way of tossing in a gentle reminder (or is it a plea? :-)
To those of you who have "Rice Rifles" (Rifles produced by Jerry Rice of Nor-Cal Precision of any kind) I am stil collecting testimonials for a page I'd like to produce for his site. Five of you have already responded and sent in your notes and photos. I really appreciate that. I'd like to have 10 before the page goes public.
For those who have comitted and are working on writing this up, I truly appreciate it. If there are others that want in on this please let me know.
Thanks a ton to those who have already done sent me theirs. You should have all received a note by now with a URL for you to double check.
Another reminder. If you are writing or talking about Mike Miller please do not expect a response until after the 23rd. The embodiment of Tactical Intervention Specialists is getting down and dirty with the Marines at Pendelton till then.
I am considering doing a testimonials page for him as well so those of you that have one of his slings may want to put some thought into that.
Charles
Charles of MemorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 20:24:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
You sir are a test in patience... allow me to say that I don't have anything to prove to you. My methods are good enough for the late Dr. Bob McKoy, from the Ballistic Research Lab at Aberdeen Proving Ground. Spent many hours on the phone with him, while he cross-examined my methods. With that said, these methods have been tried in any extreme that you can reasonably shoot in, and they work. Granted there are some conditions that it's best to sit back and eat MREs in... it happens.
Speaking of methods, you are getting about 5% of the technique of the internet. I've quite honestly got better things to do than carry on daily discussions with naysayers. Perhaps you'd care to come to the next shoot in Idaho, STARTING at 2500 yards, to provide your negative expertise. Believe it or not, you may actually learn something that isn't in your vast wealth of knowledge.
I don't use form factors to calculate the BCs, actually I use a combination of 3 methods. You state that my results are sloppy, that's your OPINION. It couldn't be anything more than opinion because you haven't witnessed it. There are numerous still photo, video tape and visual confirmation from enough pros so that I feel comfortable with the information.
You seem to be a professional attacker of all other ideas other than what you present as gospel.
Details on the bullet, I don't think so, it's under patent investigation so you'll have to wait on that.
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 20:28:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
Charles...
But the boolets from Jerry's riffles fall almost straight down at 800 yards... that's not a good thing ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
CAT!... it's what's for dinner ;)... in the, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 20:31:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.41)
An update, and a question:
Update: Regarding the rounds hanging up on their way into my R700's chamber, I looked around for a stone of the necessary size and shape and came up empty. But I did find a deburring/countersink tool (kinda like what you use to bevel the inside edge of your brass) that fit the size/shape bill. I attached that to the end of a rod and turned it with my fingers a few times. Seems to have done the trick, as it rarely hangs up now, and when it does it's very minor.
Question: A few weeks ago I shot NRA High Power F-Class at 600. Temperature was 50 or so degrees, the flags said the wind was heading straight for me, and I had a visible shimmering (up-down-left-right) mirage through my 10 power M3LR. Yesterday, I shot at the same 600 range using the same GM308M2 with the same batch number. Temperature was 30 degrees warmer - about 80, no wind worth mentioning, and no visible mirage through my M3LR. Yesterday, I had to take 2 MOA clicks off from my previous 600 come-ups to hit the X. What caused this 2 MOA elevation shift? Is it the 30 degree temperature difference? Was the target not where I thought it was two weeks ago due to the mirage?
But once I was dialed in, the X ring was all mine. This gun is spoiling the hell out of me and taking away all my excuses for missing.

MikeL <mlitscher@wi.rr.com>
Brew City, WI, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 21:02:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.25.160.112)
Hey Pat!
Thanks for the info on the Savage Stocks. I just bought a used 110 in .300 WinMag, and the stock is in el crapo shape. Thanks!!
Steve
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 21:10:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.248.59)
Aw B.S. Pablito!
"not a good thing"?!?!?! I beg to differ!
If it's good enough for the artillery boys its good enough for small arms fire! High Angle Of (mumble) or whatever! :-) :-)
Besides this way ya hit em in the top of the head and dont have to worry bout all that pesky body armor and crap like canteens, knves, worry beads, and other torso bound impediments getting in the way.
*snicker*
Charles of memorablePlaces.com <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 21:22:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
>>>>And not all American POWs are murdered. There are many countries who recognize their politcal/propaganda value and do not want to enrage the US by murdering them. I realize thats not always the case, especially with armed gangs of animals like in Somalia.<<<<<
Absolutely true, you will be exploited as a tool against your country. This is not acceptable. But that's if you make it back to the enemy rear(which may be some safe house in the middle of a city). The guys in the field may just decide to beat you to death or shoot you, in spite of what their leaders tell them. Armed animals like the Sammis are the vast majority of future wars. Sucks, but that's how it's going to be. I'm going to go out for a beer with a couple of buddies tonight, one of them is an intel nerd and I'm sure we'll get around to this topic. We were going around a similar topic last time. If anyone cares, E-mail me and I'll discuss it further.
As for ultra LR shooting, I'll believe it when I see it. I really do hope it works as well as claimed, and that your patent goes through. I just don't have lots of faith in ultra LR shooting based on my experience. Semper Fidelis...

Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 22:14:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)
A few notes:
Torsten: Ref visit, can you let me know if your available during the first 3 weeks in Sept?
Pat Sloan: Hope you recieved notes on Sniping and that they help!
Question:
We are now looking at reforming our Bn Sniper section to 19 men in strength. This will be 8 pairs in two section plus a three man HQ/anchor OP. One of the things we are looking at is the use of motorbikes for the added mobility it will give us on the modern fluid battlefield. Obviously these bikes will be used to get from area to area, cached and the the Snipers will operate as normal.
Have any of you guys out there have any experience with bike/Sniper employment?
If not, thoughts?
In 20 years I've never tried it however,used landrover Drop off/Pick ups in a similar manner and that worked well. The SAS also used bikes a lot for recce etc.. in the Gulf.
I'm open minded and willing to try anything new, if I think it has potential. Try it in training! you never know!
Thoughts?
Cheers! hope if nothing else it fuels debate
Slugboy
Slugboy <slug.boy@virgin.net>
Dover, Kent, England - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 22:36:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 213.123.36.240)
uhm. . . Pablito i had no idea you were a closet physicist I'm Imprerssed! and trigger 50 , buddy You know Chill buddy dont get your panties in a bunch go shoot your .408's and be happy thanx for lettin us know about this "new technology" but i got one better than you do buddy how about tactical sonar! my company's r&d lab (bbn labs)
has the patent junk on it from what i read in my lurking on our intranet site there it can tell the operator the direction,range &
even the caliber of bullet by the sonic "signature" and the range and direction are supposed to be within + or - 1 yed @ 1000 yrds!
Zero <Scion3@hotmail.com>
nowhere, none ya, USA - Thursday, May 10, 2001 at 23:21:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.92.27)
....Tactical Sonar huh?....Sounds like a nice target....
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 00:00:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.183)
Dean...
True... you have nothing to prove to me... but if you want to sell a gizmo, you may have something to prove to the potential buyers... and
I get NOTHING of my education from the internet... not even that 5% you refered to.
I don't present basic physics as gospel... I got it from a book, many years ago. Other guys presented it as gospel, and I believed them.
First time in all these years, that you've "gotten your panties in a bunch", copped a defensive 'tude, gotten nasty, and run. I'm disappointed that you can't see simple physics, and openly discuss it.
We're not sending a satellite to Pluto... and this is pretty basic stuff.
You want to sell a gizmo, which is fine... and you make some statements that are questionable, drop some facts that are shakie, based in methodology that is... well, primative comes to mind... and expect everyone to drop to the ground and except it, cuz you said it???
If your ideas are rightious, then you should be able to take the questions about inconsistancies of data, or method, and explain the inconstancies, without resorting to name droping as a bail out... bad juju.
If you make claims of re-inventing the wheel on this site, expect some questions... tough questions.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
CAT!... it's what's for dinner ;)... in the, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 00:10:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.130)
Pablito... I never run. And I fail to see any suggestion of running in my messages, maybe bring your grumpy butt to Idaho and put me in my place???
I've encountered your type before, and when put in their place, they tend to find ten thousand excuses for was happening and how it was all an accident that it worked at all. Nice that you sidestepped the point I made about Bob McKoy hacking off on this method. I'd rate him at stratospheric levels above your level.
Foremost to my observations, it is you who seems to be in the attack mode on everything that you seem to have issues with. BTW: you don't need all the bullet specifics to back calculate the downrange BC for a .408 caliber bullet going supersonic at the range and conditions I mentioned. Want the formula?
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 00:30:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
Good comment on the tactical sonar... heard of it already. There are already countermeasures for it also. It's an active system, unless they've managed to shrink passive sonar from the size of a van and taken off of submarines.
Threat assessment would include prioritizing any targets that would be a threat to a long range shooter. Even if it's there, what can it do for a reaction force? Can it be overwhelmed? And why would one of those be deep in bad guy country unless they have an internal threat in the first place. Those systems for the most part were developed for UN forces from the Bosnia and that area situation.
Good idea, but the common disussion in the sniper world is the defeating of such countermeasures. It's not that difficult. Unless the sonar is slaved to a return fire system, it's likely that it will do anything to STOP THE BULLET IN FLIGHT. One point that all the counter sniper guys fail to note is that it's damn tough to stop the first shot. Once its on the way, the game is over anyway.
Having your position fixed in short order only makes the game tougher, not non-existant. Don't shoot the system, shoot the key individuals. That's one way anyway.
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 00:40:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
Pablo & Triggerfly: As you both surely know, there are two ways for a factor like, oh, rifle color to be significant. The first way is for the effects of the factor to be statistically shown to affect the response. The second way is for that effect to actually matter. As an example: I can tell the difference between a million dollars and a million dollars and one cent. There certainly is a mathematical difference, but that difference has no practical significance.
It looks like you are discussing basic research. Would it be worth the trouble? I don't know. I am a statistician therefore I am resolutely agnostic until I see the relavent data. Programming a calculator for these little equations would be trivial.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 02:03:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
'back calculate the downrange BC for a .408 caliber bullet going supersonic at the range and conditions'
POP Fizz Zap - Drool
031 Infantry DUHHHH
OK and WTF
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 02:20:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)
Gents,
Looking for an Operator's Manual for the UNERTL 10X USMC Scope.
Anyone have one they could make a copy of or know of a source for the same. Need one in the worst way...
Tomorrow it's SMG workout time, again. That'll put a smile on your face.
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 02:56:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.29)
Gents,
Looking for an Operator's Manual for the UNERTL 10X USMC Scope.
Anyone have one they could make a copy of or know of a source for the same. Need one in the worst way...
Tomorrow it's SMG workout time, again. That'll put a smile on your face.
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 03:06:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.249.29)
hey Im no boolit geomotrist like dean and lito but what about a barrel with a progressive twist like one that starts at 1 in 8 at the chamber and progresses up to 1 in 12 or better since the bullit has had time to get speed while hooking up to the lands and groves why not go a hair faster on the crown end with like 1 in 14 or so just a thought HA
Big Will <Madlogger@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 03:10:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 166.82.202.83)
Kevin of the GWN.... Sittin here laughin my ass off!!! Takes a light moment to put things in perspective..... ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
good one
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 03:20:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)
Gain twist barrels tear a bullet up from what I've been told. Think about it, the cut in the bullet starts at 1 in whatever then changes to 1 in something else. what will that do to the bullet jacket?
Operator manual for Unertl? What do you need to know Wes? Email me off line. I have an FMFRP on the M40A1 which is more or less an operators manual. I need to copy it for Andy Weber I'll make one for you too if you send me your address.
There is an article in this months Soldiers magazine on the NGB sniper school if anyone is interested. Don't have the link.

out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 03:42:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.52.86)
Slugboy:
Dirtbikes idea: Not a good one.
I raced enduros professionally and I can say that 30+ pounds of gear will not be suitable to most rugged terrain on a dirtbike. A dirtbike can go just about anywhere (and man do I have the scars to prove it!), but an ATV would be far more suitable to gear packing. They can be agile and flexable in duty, and can even carry out a buddy if necessary. They are also can be quick, quite, and very reliable. They can go through mud, snow, and slop that dirt bikes can't. (snow and mud are a BITCH!) Rocky terrain is where the birt bike wins hands down, but if you are in the rocks, you are exposed and maybe need to leave vehicles behind anyway. Also, in sand dunes, dirt bikes suck. ATVs sail through sand dunes. They also can get more fuel/miles as they can carry more fuel.
A dirtbike is like a rifle-A fancy one can seem sexy to use, but it the rifle with good enough accuracy and bullet-proof in design that gets the shot off. ATVs are the bullet-proof rifle of off highway vehicles. Ask any hunter who uses one.
For all practical purposes, an ATV will go 90% of the places a dirt bike can go, and in those 10% of places it would better to use your two legs anyway.

Hank <Hank@vocallect.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 04:00:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)
Trigger, Pablito,
Can either of you explain this.
Range: 200 yards
Zero: 100 yards
Wind: 30mph 12 O'Clock
Temp: 80 F
Drop: 8 inches!
Load: 178gr AMAX; 44gr Varget; CCI BR primer; Hornady Match .308 Case
Gun: Remington 700 VSSF 26" barrel 1:12 twist
All of the ballistic programs I have tried only give me about 1.5" drop. The above data is real world.
Thanks in advance
Chad
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
Oklahoma, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 04:59:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.133.160)
Slugboy,
Got your email.
WOW!
Thanks. I truly appreciate your time and valuable information.
It will come in handy.
The paper is close to being done except waiting on some assistance
from a very prominant police attorney on the liability/court rulings
issues. With her help, I should be able to pin down this difficult
topic and put it to final draft.
Again, thank you.
Be careful - STAY ALERT / STAY ALIVE!!!
Pakrat
ps-
vet: 1/505 PIR
82nd Airborne
WHOO AAHHH!
:)
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Great State of Texas!, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 07:54:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)
Chad...
Just to clarify... are you saying that you are zeroed at 100yds, and the center of your 200 group is 8" low?? Hmmm wery interesting!
Lemme know.
(Is that one of the new .308, 800 yd mortars that have been going around ;)
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 11:13:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.28)
Hogs:
Raffle - hang tuff... we're sorting out fine details.... you'll hear soon....

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 11:29:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Trigger50 / Pablito.
I can see where the dialog could be a little less "INTENSE" and still cover the content. You both have an enormous amount of information to bring to the table... You are both serious shooters, so why don't you redirect that aggression to someone that really deserves it...

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 12:48:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)
Trigger50 / Pablito.
I can see where the dialog could be a little less "INTENSE" and still cover the content. You both have an enormous amount of information to bring to the table... You are both serious shooters, so why don't you redirect that aggression to someone that really deserves it...

Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 12:48:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)
sorry about the double tap. DUH.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 12:50:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)
Morning Hogs..
Trying to catch up on the roster again, and I see Dean is back and I love the info he put's out and the discussions it brings up.
Dean..
I think what your trying to do is great esp. for the guys who shoot the 50s at really long ranges. I do however agree with 'lito and Ken when they say that the wind is going to be the biggest factor to deal with and it will be nearly impossible to compute.
As 'lito said when you shoot across a flat thats one thing but even out here on the plains of SD we have a lot of draws and small hills that litterly drive you nuts trying to shoot across them. I have had a nearly 15mph right hand wind cancel itself out by the time the bullet got to where it was going.
I have observed wind flags on a range in Wyoming blowing two different directions at the same time. I know your a very experienced shooter and have probably done more 1500+ yard shooting than anyone. The thing is, is how much of your knowledge is put into the reading of the wind at the time of the shot that someone else may not have.
I guess what I am trying to say is, "Garbage in garbage out" in other words if the person does not have your vast experience at knowing what happens to bullets at long range will he be able to compute it???
Just like knowing that I have a 15mph right hand wind at my shooting spot does not mean it will be a right hand wind at where the bullet is going. I know this from shooting a lot and learning to read the winds down range. Not to just rely on the same wind call as is at my shooting position just as you have learned.
I am sure if I was to take the same shot as you with all the same gear available to me you would probably have a much greater chance of hitting the target because of you experience at shooting the loooooong shots. I guess what I am trying to say is there is no crutch or gaget out there that is going to replace experience.
If you build it and you think it works, give it to the average rifleman and have him make the 2000yd shot then you will know if you have something!! Good Luck and don't be so thin skinned about it:):):)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 13:24:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
I am interested in Buying A Winchester Stealth 308 and was wondering what people thought about it. I have not been shooting very long and have not been happy with the rifle I bought. Also was woundering how the Stealth stacked up to the Remington 700's. Thanks for the help a head of time.
Andy <andylippitt@hotmail.com>
Basking Ridge, NJ, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 15:07:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.21.13.132)
Test.
Chuck <wildearp@hotmail.com>
Dark, Kalifornistan, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 15:17:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.153.43.193)
Morning Hogs,
I have just returned to High Power Rifle shooting and I am having a heck of a time with dopin the wind. My local Guru says doping the wind is the only element of shooting that is dang near never the same. Learn to shoot in the wind and you will become an excellent shot. Worry about which bullet is going to have the least drop and blown off course less than an other, and you will never learn to shot well. Pick an accurate load. Use it and only it. Make lots of notes about the wind, your sight settings and the resluting hit or near hit. Then you will be learning and progressing. It made sense to me. Now to hear two guys going at it over factors that cause .001-.002" changes in POI? Can this be more important than an unseen air current moving at 3 mph moving at 90 deg to the shooter on a 1,000yd shot? Like I said I am new to this stuff but that 70 year old Jedi Master I shoot with aint. And my observations thus far lead me to believe Obiwan.
I'm in on the Riffle Raffle too.
Bravo, bad things happen to good people. I've seen what happened to you happen to alot of folks I work with (I'm a Police Officer). Just hang in there it will get better.
Shot out.
Steve

Steve <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tx, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 15:33:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.86.23.76)
Andy...
I won't tell you to read the last 6 months of the archives, where the "Stealth", and Remington have been discussed to great end (See, I didn't tell him to "READ THE ARCHIVES" ;)
But current opinion is that the stealth will beat the PSS any day of the week.
Remington has had quality control problems for the last 5 or 6 years.
Some are very good... but many are friggin' awful, and Rem doesn't do much (if anything) to make you happy :((
There are a LOT of guys here that own Stealths, or the eariler model (M70/HBV)... and I have several myself.
They are very good riffles, and would be my choice of an "over the counter" tac/match gun.
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Save a mouse... Eat Pussy Cat;)) in the, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 15:42:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.128)
I live in the mountains of SE KY, and I can't even imagine a 1500 yard shot. Maybe if I could talk the golf pro in letting me use some of that course . . .
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 16:05:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.93.57)
Steve...
>"Can this be more important than an unseen air current moving at 3 mph moving at 90 deg to the shooter on a 1,000yd shot?"<
NO!! And NO!! in triples.
Non of this minutia crap (scientifically called "Noise") has any "REAL" effect on where the round hits, because the wind, is, at best, just a guess, and the wind adds a thousand times the error of these little bits of "noise".
Unless you shoot over a field, with wind sensors ar every 25 feet, for the entire bullet path, (at the right altitudes), then it's guess, and all the other stuff is just window dressing for "Gee wizz" sales effect.
There are no free lunches, and no quick paths to shooting.
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Save a mouse... Eat Pussy Cat;)) in the, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 17:11:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.48)

Jim, the Medic...............
I knew you were a good guy......((:
Thanks for Voulunteering to be the subject of aggression of T50's, and Pussyslayer's wrath to come....
Kinda like a "Middleman".
What a GUY!!!!!!....
Question for ALL you real deal serious Snapper's.......
I, as most of you are aware, am a tad anal......sometimes..(;
I have a tendency to believe that Titanium Devcon is THE bedding material to use in building a hardened system......
A lot of folks use Marine tex, I do also, on HS style stocks.....but not on Mac's, and HIGH dollar rigs.........
That is the Question.........Your expert opinions requested, and appreciated.
Muchas gracias.....mi amigo's e amiga's!!!!
Dos Zaptos
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 17:16:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.202)
Lido,
Thanks for the info... and even though you didn't tell me to I will check out the archives ;-)!!! Boy do I have a lot to learn!!!!!!
Andy <andylippitt@hotmail.com>
Basking Ridge, NJ, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 18:02:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.21.13.74)
Lito sorry!!!!
andy <andylippitt@hotmail.com>
Basking Ridge, NJ, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 18:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.21.13.74)
Dos Zapatos...
I used to use that yucky "Brown stuff" Micro Bed... I lotta guys knock it, but I have match guns that I did (probably before you were born ;), and it has held up well.
But last year, I switched to Brownells "Steel Bed"... probably like the Devcon Titanium stuff.
The thing about these bedding compounds is not that they have steel/Titanium in them to make them strong... the metal powder has no effect on strength... it's for shrinkage (or lack there of).
The plain glass bedding compounds shrink about 1%... and it gives you a little slack, in case you don't prep the riffle flawlessly. It will still come out, when you tug real hard.
The metal filled bedding compounds have 0% shrinkage, and action prep is more important... you mess up, and you remove the stock with a chisel, cuz you got no slack.
I did the 308 I built last year with the steel bed, and it is the best bedding job I ever did, and the gun shoots better than any I ever put together.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
What's for dinner... Calico Casserole with a Siamese Side Dish ;) (recipe from Greg... Cat Gormetti ;), in the cat abundant, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 18:55:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.48)
175gr .308 loads- picked up my first .308 a few weeks ago (700 VLs that got built right) and am taken back by some of the load data. Read the M118-LR spec is 2685 fps using 44.3gr RE-15. My Alliant data shows a 180 gr Speer SP at 2645 fps/44.0 gr RE-15 developing 57,500 psi. I know pressure must be measured, not calculated but it seems that unless you're tied to 7.62x51 by supply chain or other requirements, the old 30-06 would be a better platform if you''ve just gotta stay supersonic at 1000 yards.
I'm looking at 155 SMK Palma bullets to cut elevation way out there. Anyone have any corrections for 700-1000 you'd like to share? Wind drift?
WR Moore <wrmoore2001@yahoo.com>
USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 19:45:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.106.50.3)
Howdy All:
Finally got to test my 3006 Ack. at longer ranges this past Sat. I was very pleased.
From 100yd zero: 600yd-14.0 moa at 7am..then 13.5 moa at 1PM;
800yd-22.0 moa at 7 then 21.5 moa at 1ish;
1000yd-31.0 moa at 7 then 30.5 moa ...
Load was 190 JLK vld with 58.0 gr. N160. Bullet seated 0.020" into
lans; BR-2 primer; Fed case.
Beleive I'll make this my feline interdiction load.
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <Jeff.Allen@bellsouth.com>
Atlanta, GA, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 19:50:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)
Sorry this isn't shooting related, but for two days I've been racking my brain as to what "ROTFLMAO" comes out to be. I'm usually pretty good w/acronyms and this one has me stumped. Maybe I'm not far enough into the archives yetand it's in there, but can someone hit me offline and let me in on this??
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
WTF???, TN, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 22:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.41)
"ROTFLMAO" = Rolling On The Floor, Laughing My Ass Off
I don't know about cams, and ballistic sonor, but I knew the answer to that!
Later,
Steve
steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 22:17:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.93.58)
Chris,
Rolling on the floor laughing my ass (arse) off.
avgshooter <lday@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 22:19:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.13.81.130)
SLUGBOY/MOTORCYCLES:
I have been slotted in different Scout/Sniper organizations that had vehicles and others that had none. One section considered bikes and went with a Humvee instead.
The vehicles hurt us overall. Here is a rundown of my experience:
PRO:
Insertion/Extraction capability
Radio Retrans site
Resupply capability
(more, but thats the main points)
CON:
Downtime for driver issues, tng, maintanence etc.
Extremely vulnerable and non stealthy
Young soldiers will inevitably injure themselves on motorcycles
Potential for damage to gear
If you ask for other methods of support for insertion/extraction, your
unit may get a habit of telling you to screw off and use your bikes.
Summary:
It sucks to beg for support alot of times, but having been in sections with/without access to vehicles, I would take without any day.

Good luck either way!

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 22:31:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
POW ISSUE:
I hear alot of what your saying, but want to make a couple of points (don't take these as antaganistic by the way, not how they are meant).
"Used as a tool against your country"
POWs do tie down enemy troops that would otherwise be committed to the front. Am I saying, serve your country and go be a POW, of course not, but, if it happens (and who knows, maybe you are wounded and past the decision making role) then you can still resist.
Further, in this era, the country is likely to support you enormously and any act by the enemy to harm you or use you as a tool may very well do nothing more than enrage the country and fuel the fighting spirit.
"Wars in the future will be like Somalia"
Not all of them. Anyone who says "It will all be this way only" is wrong. There will be diversity in the type of conflicts in the future and not just one kind.

If you decide to do the "Death before [dismemberment] or Dishonor" thing, I sure don't hold it against you and it is absolutely your call.
But, lets not teach that to our troops or foster a "throwaway" mentality.
I really hope that didn't sound smart alecky or anything. If it did, I plead the social retard due to former infantry defense and apologize in advance.
TRIGGER 50:
Dean; hope this argument doesn't scare you off. From what JR told me about you, you were one hell of a sniper (a real one) and I hope you stick around the site. Quite honestly the non stop talk about ballistics bores the hell out of me (no offense anyone), but I always am happy to hear from people with field experience.
Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 22:50:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Hello all,
Its been a long time since I have posted on this site and I was pleasantly surprised to find out I had to register first. What an excellent way to keep out the rif raf. Good work guys.
I have been researching the HS Precision Heavy Tactical and have found nothing but good things. (I am especially partial since the company is located in my home state) Anyway, I was looking for some insight on the Take-down model of this weapon. If anyone has had any experience with its performance regarding accuracy etc vs. the fixed model, I would appreciate the input.
Out
Whiskey Tango
BTW...I'm in for 10 tix on the riffle raffle.
Whiskey Tango <karl@wesetthehook.com>
SD, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 23:06:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.170.216.135)
Hey Fellers!
Trigger50 especially What the blinkety bloody heck is a .408? and what is the parent case? do you have a web site that i can peruse it on? i'm so curious about them i can't stand it!
oh bye the way confirmed kill @ 445 yrds (bushnell laser rangefinder)
on a nice maine coon cat with my 22-250 using 50 grain nosler ballistic tip 37 grains of varget @ 3850 fps all i can say is SSSSWWWWwwwweeeeeeeeeTTTTTTTTTTT!

jason <scion3@hotmail.com>
that one place, in indiana, USA - Friday, May 11, 2001 at 23:52:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.92.57)
Jason
Do a web search on 408 Cheyenne and you'll have plenty to read about the .408.

Dave "Doc" King <David_L_King@Yahoo.Com>
Damascus, MD, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 00:13:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.78.125.251)
Gents,
Not much to say. Preparing to teach a Defensive Handgun Responsibility Course tomorrow. There goes my shooting day. Still it pays my office bills at home.
Spent part of the day at the range with my Uzi in both the surpressed and unsupressed mode. Great fun. Keeping my hand in for the big Albany Rifle and Pistol Club Spring MG shoot. This is the largest shoot west of the Mississippi and will take place May 19/20. If anyone is bored come on out. You'll see, and in most cases, have chances to fire(rent)about anything up to a 20MM Solothurn or Lahti.
After reading the latest posts I've just ordered a custom level four ballistic vest for "Tiny", my 15 pound grey tabby...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 00:23:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.11)
Here we go again...
I had an interesting talk with an individual the other day by the name of William T McDonald. SOme of you may recognize his name from the ballistics section of the Sierra loading manual. We met through one of you lurkers out there. Now, keep in mind this is an MIT trained by gawd Rocket Scientist and the guy that wrote many of the fomulae that guys quote on here.
We had this little conversation regarding THEORY v PRACTICAL APPLICATION. I paraphrase here but he agreed that all computers, charts and number crunchers can do is give you a pretty good guess at where the bullet should go under a given set of circumstances. They are pretty good in a virtual shooting world but in practice there is no substitute for PRACTICE and a good databook. Here is the NO BULL bottomline here.
I promise you that you have a much better chance of hitting a target if you focus on the fundamentals and be close on your sight settings than if you have perfect sight settings and are sloppy on your marksmanship skills. Both are important but good science will NEVER replace sight alignment and trigger control.
If you are a beginner, copy all of this ballistic diatribe on your hard drive and revisit it when you can consistently group as well as your rifle will shoot. Its good stuff but until then read every book by the Tubb's and Owens's of the world that talk about the fundamentals. SOmeday when you are really bored and can knot em up like a bat out of hell then get into the theory of ballistics.
At least then you will know the questions and can start looking for the answers.
Out
Gooch <goochkw@riflemen.net>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 00:25:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.53.31)
Two Shoes
I've use The Acra-Glas on Remmys and Mausers and I agree w/ 'Lito. I've used Steel-Bed (Brownell's) on my M1A and it is REALLY nice stuff. Hard and tight as hell. Took a piece of it and beat the shit out of it w/ a hammer and only the very thin edges cracked. In my McMillan stocked "Rice" gun I used Marine-Tex per Jerry's direction. Did my little SA 308 the other day w/ Marine-Tex, too. Beat the shit out of a piece of it and it reacted like the Steel-Bed.
If you use the Steel-Bed, mix PER DIRECTIONS and there will be no breakdown. The only reason I need to skim my '1A is because of the wood, NOT the Steel-Bed.
Semper-Fi!
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
spring valley, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 01:20:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.223.76)
Jason, Go to the homepage for this website board. It has a copy of the test that I posted here on the .408 CheyTac results from Idaho. Email me direct if you have any questions. www.cheyennetactical.com does have more information on the .408 Cheytac but here's the short story.
The cartridge is a .408 caliber based on the .505 Gibbs case. Case capacity is 144 grains. The bullet (one of three) is a 419 gr. Solid CNC turned copper/nickel VLD design. It was designed using PRODAS software with a couple of tweaks by Warren Jensen from Lost River Ballistic Technologies (www.lostriverballistic.com). His J40 match bullets are extremely slick and extremely accurate.
The gun is currently built by EDM Arms on the Windrunner style chassis with a quick change barrel. Go to www.snipersparadise.com to the photo section and you'll find photos under the "rifles" and then the "408 cheytac" section. I have a section at that website called ELR dealing with the art of extreme range shooting.
It's for those that have the marksmanship part well in hand and are ready for the advanced application. As Gooch said, marksmanship skills only get the groups tight, data books however are only a historical record that apply to perfect recreations of that data and nowhere else.
The "diatribe" at that site is without comment and is with total professionalism. The BC of the .408 starts at .903 and gets better as it goes downrange. Can't release details on why, but it's being patented by LRB and is being supported by a couple of federal agencies BRL sections.
Jefe, what's JR contact address, email me please. Can't seem to find his contact information.
AS for winds, future technology isn't too far out of reach that will have passive devices reading downrange winds. Particles in the flowing air can be observed, spotted, tracked and turned into accurate wind data. Not a big deal. Hell, they can bounce an IR laser off of a bullet in flight and track it back to it's source. That's way past battlefield sonar, and as of yet CANNOT be defeated. The arguements about windage not being doable are based on the technology capabily of 10 years ago or more.
Companies like MISTRAL in Virginia, have long had a laser that senses downrange winds and can report accurately the downrange conditions. The old days of sitting behind a spotting scope reading mirage are excellent training values, and are beyond reproach. But as you guys correctly point out, winds at maximum ordinates of 75' or more are tough if not impossible to detect and then turn into real wind speeds and directions. There are ways to do it though.
Hell I sat in on a briefing on a wind sensing laser almost 16 years ago. Keep an open mind, it's going to happen.
Trigger50 <trigger@ecenet.com>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 01:45:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.240.224.226)

"The "diatribe" at that site is without comment and is with total professionalism. "
DO I HEAR THE SOUND OF CRACKING ICE again?????????????

Jeff A.
Thanks for the load data, every little bit helps. :-)

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
bIG cITY, bY-gAWD, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 02:33:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.43)
Gentlemens..........
Thanks to all who responded on & offline.........
I have had numerous rifffles, of the Precision Persuasion, and all have been Tit Dev's except for a couple of M40A1 TBA's.......of several years back.
Mike used Brownells Steel Bed then, if memory serves correctly.
George G, uses Mar Tex, and Tit Dev, but prefers the MT.......
Don't know what Mr. Rice uses, but spud said MT, on his wood stocker...
I just can't see that MT, as much as I like it, could, would be better than Brownells Steel bed, or Tit Dev, from a chemical imperviousness, and hydroscopic nature.
I reckon it's one of those "Which one you like best deals".
Lito'.....I only WISH you were bedding rifffles before I was borned!! HAH!!!!!......(:
Again, thanks to all you fine folks, and feline molesters.......(:@)
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 02:45:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.206)
Jerry Rice uses Marine Tex on all his rifles. As far as I know he only uses McMillan stocks. His weapons' inherent accuracy and toughness is testimonial enough. The stuff is solvent-proof just like Steel-Bed, too.
For all you folks that have changed over to the Springfield Armory muzzle brake on your '1As: IF you were using the trick where you use a 12 Ga. hull for a bore guide, you can still use it. Just cut it down to about 3/4 in long. Otherwise, it'll be too tight.
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
Merced, Kalifornicateya, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 03:38:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.211)
Trigger: That wind reading gizzie sounds doable, useful and pretty damned cool. You can reduce the error due to wind but there will be an irreducable error. You will know what the wind has done up until the time you have committed to pulling the trigger, but you can't be sure what the wind will do after you pull the trigger. In order to 'game' that, your calculator will need do something like some fairly fancy regression analysis. And the shooter is going to need some new skills.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 04:00:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
'Lito,
You understood correctly. I am dead on at 100 yards. I am hitting 8" lower than my point of aim at 200 yards with no adjustment to my scope. Its got me wondering WTF!!
Chad
Chad <rem700_308win@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 04:22:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.52.188.76)
Chad.... FWIW, I just did the calculations on EXBAL with the figures that you provided. It says 1.6" drop at 200 from a 100 zero. And you say that you're getting 8" drop. WTF? is right! I'm not green enough to think that you can strictly rely on computer data when figuring come-ups, but this is ridiculous. Must have some of that extra-strong gravity out there, or a giant sucking hole right under your target;-))
Please post when you figure it out.

ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 06:37:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.74.46)
Gents,
Just thought I'd pass along a little trick I picked up, though a lot of you guys may already be using it. For a durable, subdued color shooting bag, I use the old style aid bag. You can carry it like a pack, its easy to secure to your ruck, and there's a lot of pockets and dividers to keep your kit in order.
I just got a new one, ( gave the old one back when I ETS'ed ) and I've got my spotting scope, tripod, shooting glove, mildot master, data book, tools, and 80 to 100 rounds in there, nice and neat. Hope this helps somebody.
Count me in on the Rifle Raffle !
loper <loper@micron.net>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 09:12:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.70.43.28)
Bravo (if you are reading),
Hang in there, bro!
We got your back.
Trying to find some words of wisdom or something witty to rely
but to no avail.........
Just know, we are thinking about you and you are in our prayers.
Pakrat
Pakrat <psfamily@mail.com>
Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 09:25:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 168.69.134.183)
jason:
that's a purrdy good shot - considering the size of a cat and a puny-assed .22 caliber boolet.... having to fly true for that distance...

Ken :)
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville (mowin' the fields ville), va, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 13:07:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Alas, another day of painting and honey-do's. The range seems far far away :(
Yes dear, I'll get to it in a minute, Bolt down and out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 14:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.86)
Thanx a mil Trigger for that it was buggin me somethin fierce.
also i was readin through one of my back issues of shotgun news before the wife made me throw em away and i found an advertisment
for a sabot the fits 308's & another model for the .50 bmg round
the .30 cal used .22 cal bullets to go 4500 fps out of a standard
.308 win case (no load data though) and 5300fps for the .50 it used a 180 grn .308 bullet all i can say excelerators has returned fellers
and would that cuase barrel burn very badly becuase of the plastic sabot i'm not too sure it would. and. . .
Ken thanx but a maine coon is usually 10-15 pound cat and us varmint hunters make farther shots on smaller aminals all the time the world record for a praire dogs is 3000+ yrds on an animal the size of a large squrrel! and if you've never shot a 22-250 it is one of the flatest shooting rounds i've ever seen for 500-600 yrds max it kicks some serious butt using 52 grain hornady match "boolets" for the groupers and the ballistic tips for the huntin'
may all your shots enter the same hole

Jason <Scion3@Hotmail.com>
redneckville, in, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 14:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.92.124)
3000+ yd. shot on a pd? Boy, what a shot! He must have trained with the Mall Ninja. My best shot was only 2000yds. at a Rockchuck (never said that I hit him). I must learn that Sniper-Foo*;-0 Who left the door open?
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 14:50:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.230)
Justa lurker...
I like the roster as is.
I'll kick in 20 on the Riffle raffle...
Leavin' fer Whittington Center @ Raton for 9 days next Saturday... Nope, just to play; I can't hit nutin. I'm an ex-diesel Submarine sailor!

Larry Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 15:17:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.138.19)
Justa lurker...
I like the roster as is.
I'll kick in 20 on the Riffle raffle...
Leavin' fer Whittington Center @ Raton for 9 days next Saturday... Nope, just to play; I can't hit nutin. I'm an ex-diesel Submarine sailor!

Larry Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 15:17:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.138.19)
ALAN - 3000 yds,
Dude -thats purdy good... my best was only 2900 yards at a crow...
:0%

(some awful looonnnngg shots going on here eh... ;)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
deepville, va, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 15:37:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Chad,
What kind of velocity are you getting with those 178's? You should be about 4 to 5 inches low at 200yds using a 100yd zero.
Did you chrono the loads, or calculate the velocity from a reloading manual? Some large errors can be made in estimating velocity.
Best Regards,

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
OutBack, KY, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 15:38:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.33)
Trigger50,
Now Dean, snipers paradise is okay I guess - but you know as well as Dorothy and Toto does - there's no place like snipercountry.

ken ;)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
kansas, va, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 15:40:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
ALAN...
Yeah. 3000(+) on the second shot, witnessed, and it was a .308 Winchester, and Sierra MatchKing's and a special base with almost 500 moa of taper (looked pretty funny).
I can only lay claim to a 853 yd Prairie Dog... and I didn't get it on the first shot, or the second, or... well, my friends got bored waiting :((
3000 yds is a Looooong way.
Gooch...
I'm with you.
First time I spoke to Bill McDonald was many years ago, he took the wind out of one my sails, and we've spoken many time since... he is both theoretical, AND practical.
He said something I thought was interesting... "You can reasonably predict bullet performance for the first 1.5 to 2 seconds, after that, all the numbers get pretty shaky, and are really a guess, even if they are your own numbers that worked last week."
I enjoy the ballistics, but I have learned (through frustration) that 1000-1200 yds is just about the wall of predictability under "average" conditions for centerfire guns... some guns and rounds might push that a bit, but not by much.
To be able to do "magic" on a range, on a perfect day, perfect weather, with no wind or a constant 12 o'clock wind, at a known distance, at a time of your chosing, and pacing the shots as you want... you can do wonders... once in a while!
But take that same magical gun and cartridge... take your "Stuff" you need, to a place that is not of your chosing, on a day with weather not of your chosing, with shitty switching winds, and have to pick a FP based not on which is good for the best group, but on what gives the best concealment, and take the shot when it is available, not whan you feel like it, and not when the wind is "just right"... and not be able to shoot groups, and pick the best one to brag about, but have one, or maybe two shots, at most...
...if your target is a long-range varmint, or Saddam Husain, these are the conditions that determine your maximum range... and it ain't no steenkin' 3000yds.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Now a 3000yds Cat... that's worth trying for ;)... I got all day ;)) in the, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 15:53:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.88)
...then there was that nauga someone popped at 5K with the particle accelerator, way back when !! yep, those were the days. Or was it the mosquito at 5 yds with a BB gun, maybe a Red Ryder ??
Jeff A. drop me an email & tell me how you did at the 1K match last weekend. Wonder how many at that match got 10 on at 1K?? Or 5 for that matter !
Nope not cajun, just have in-laws that claim that. I just can't agree with me forefathers about haggis.Tabby teriyaki, persian parboil, siamese stir fry, alleycat alfredo, maybe...
Have tried the sabots for .308 and THEY SUCK TWINKIES as for accuracy !! Maybe 5-6" @ 100yds. Biggest problem is seating the .22 concentrically in the sabot. Too much hassle, still have a couple of hundred, somewhere, bought 1K when they were real cheap. Used 3031 and ??700 ...neat little **pop** and very little recoil.
What optics work best for 2500+ yda ?? Just curious.
OUT HERE !
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 16:38:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.147.22)
Sniper Mobility,
Thanks for the replies, My gut feeling is thats its a bad idea in most circumstances to use Motor-cycles. Regarding ATV's I would love to be able to have that choice, however we don't have too many and thoose we do have are allocated to the Manouvre Sp groups, Milan, .50 HMG & GPMG SF(Sustained fire)
The general plan in the sections is to equip each with 2 x M/cycle and 1 x Cut down SWB (Short wheelbase)L/Rover. This will still leave two pairs per section on foot. The M/Bikes can either be used or towed/attached to the SWB's.
The fact we are an Airborne unit combined with the fact we do not have the same kind of logistic or delivery capabilities as the USA means we can only deliver mission essential vehicles to the drop zone, Mortars, Anti-tank, MMG Pl and Sigs take priority with the L/Rovers and Pinzgauers. Manouvre Sp Platoons (attached to rifle Coys) take all of the ATV & trailers. Bikes are all we are likely to get on an Para insertion (were only talking 4 between 19 Pax)
The SWB's will then follow whenever the Airland follow up takes place.
The reason we are interested in the M/bike concept is because it gives us a chance to move with the advance on offensive operations, thus making us more employable.
The German Invasion of France is a classic example of a total War scenario where the rapid advance of mechanised forces meant that Snipers had little impact on Enemy movement (The bigger picture)
With the .338, we now have access to Armour piercing incendry rounds, which are capable of penetration BMP2 rear doors (as long as your up close and personal 150 - 250m) Given the right terrain this would allow us to use terrorist type tactics against an Enemy armoured force.
e.g. Move to a FRV (final Rendevous point) Cache bikes, then move to a FFP lay in ambush, hit from a concealed position. Use long range assets to cover our withdrawal, i.e. HMG/Mor and make good our escape using pre-recced withdrawal routes.
Its a concept we will try on exercise, I appreciate the limitations of the bikes but it gives us an option we would not otherwise have.
Regarding 'Lifts' of other assets, we have so few people are reluctant to drop us off now.
Again thanks for your views, the more the merrier, all points are being noted!
Sorry for the Essay
Slugboy!
Slugboy <slug.boy@virgin.net>
Dover, Kent, England - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 16:39:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.6.66.245)
Just catching up from a week on a new job...
Bravo,
In case you aren't getting your mail- You are in my prayers & if you need something, sing out. I've been there & done that.
Long range varmits- A friend of mine once made an incredible shot on a chuck & an old timer was watching, as my friend stood up and began to swell with pride- the graybeard just said "Yep, boolet had to go somewhere..."
Later.
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 20:52:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.199.82.102)
Just a couple question from a new M700 PSS 300 Win Mag owner.
First off, I’d like to have the rifle gone through by a competant smith who specializes in precision shooting.
I’m leaning towards Iron Brigade Armory and their PSS tune up. Does anyone have any first hand experience with them and in particular the PSS tune? What kind of accuracy could I expect with Badger base, rings and an NXS 3.5-15x50?
As for factory ammunition, has anyone tried Hornady’s 178gr TAP Precision AMAX load? The factory specs show it doing 2980 at the muzzle. How would this load compare to the venerable Federal GM 190gr for shooting to 1000 meters and beyond?
Thanks, any and all collective wisdom is appreciated.
shabang
shabang <AMSEKS@aol.com>
Puyallup, WA, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 22:08:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.29)
shabang...... You won't go wrong with IBA! Norm Chandler does some great $$$TUFF with a Remmie.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 22:21:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.168)
"may all your shots enter the same hole"
Mine all do. I think it's called "the chamber" ;-)
I'm heading for Tac Pro near Stephenville for some 1k practice next Saturday. Hope to see a few of you up there.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 22:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.65.97.59)
Shabang,
Not to bust your bubble or cut a good smith out of some work but IMHO you need to shoot the rifle a good bit just to see how it will do ourt of the box. Adjust the trigger down to 3.5 or 4 pounds and let her rip for a couple of hundred rounds, check your grouping and then determine if you want to shell out the bucks for a tune up. I have a 300 mag Sendero that will punch out 5/8-3/4" all day long depending on how I am shooting that day. I haven't seen the need to pay several hundred to gain no more than I would expect to gain with just a tune up.
You just can't go wrong with the Badger steel, nothing like it that I have seen or used. Get the one piece base though. I was an idiot and didn't listen to the Patrons and tried to save some money with two piece.
Would suggest you check out the Leupold scopes first. Again, you just can't go wrong with them.

Gooch,
What's happening with the new club? Rarin to join up!

Back to honey-do hell, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 23:03:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.182)
Shabang,

Go with the BEST. Jerry Rice of Nor-Cal Precision is your BEST bet. http://www.norcalprecision.com
Call Jerry and tell him the result you want. I have heard it from many of his customers and have first hand experience, that Jerry will talk you OUT of work that you do not need.
Nor-Cal Precision can do a masterful trigger and bedding job as well as things 1000 times more complex that will tune that rifle to a point you will be amazed at.
Anyway, check Jerry out his prices are fair, the work is above reproach, and he is a hell of a nice guy.
EMAIL: nor-cal@worldnet.att.net
Telephone: 1-(707)-552-3810
Fax: 1-(707)-558-8977
Charles

Charles of MemorablePlaces.com (NCP Webmaster) <tenarius@memorableplaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Saturday, May 12, 2001 at 23:54:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 158.252.197.87)

Just finished a course and am now decompressing. Have missed way too much of the roster but what the heck will try stirring the pot some.
Long range shooting past about 1200 and 1400 is past difficult. the wind at the rate of ONE MPH will move the bullet about 12 to 16 inches. Don't know, been doing this a bunch and I still can't see that one mph wind. Lets add that favorite boil that is actually a one mph fish tail and you have a push left to right and back that results in 24 to 36 inches. Dam those PDs get small!!
Wind sensing machines only work with the little guy under the table flipping switches. Once MISTAL wanted to put little wind sensers every 25 meters so that the computer would have something to read. They also read line of sight and not max ord when that little beauty is running at equal up as to equal down or also know as weightless. All of these are active laser to read particle shift in the atmosphere. I know have had the dam things on my range every year for the past umpty ump and they do not work. The last whiz-bang was by the same folks that Dean speaks of and the computer registered a 1.25 moa correction for an eight-mph wind, full value, at 600 meters. Needless to say, it was a miss by a big amount. Oh yes, our observer gave a correct call and a center chest shot was registered.
As far as active counter sniper radar/sonar/laser. -- You are dead meat if you come up against any of these. They do work and very fine thank you.
Slugboy - I would have to say no to the motor scoots. We had a chance to go up against several units with them and the stealth mode just does not make it. Add the crash and burn factor, had a guy with a NOD shoved into his face after a header, and you can get in over your head real fast. Those long guns seem to unbalance those little critters somewhat. Of course then again how far is you ORP from your FFP and will you cache the bike further out and approach on foot? I’ve ridden the suckers for fun and work is not my idea of fun. Have used Fast Attack Vehicles to race forward and drop us off and then continued the mission on foot. Another worry for me is the reduction of situation awareness around you as you move through enemy areas. To much noise and too many bounces for good visual accurity (sp?) for my comfort level in the bush.
Gooch - Daaaaaammmmmm, the basics again as it should be!
The real measure is what can be done day after day. When you move all day and find your spot that is just right. Your target is out there, but how far? You compute all the data for range and you give your best GUESS for all of the little “noise” (love that one ‘Lito). You follow the basics of rifle marksmanship and your target does the funky chicken while you crawl out of the attitude attack zone with visions of Guinness dancing in your cranium.
Have a fun night guys and Hold hard!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 00:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.157)
Is the "riffle raffle" really going to happen?
I think that it is an excellent idea to cover the expense to keep the site going. We recently raffled off a Harley for charity and it worked great. We sold a maximum of 250 tix at $100 each. They sold out right away. Maybe you could do something similar with the raffle to make sure that you covered the cost of the "riffle". (lower ticket price of course...;o) Just a thought...

Tango out.
Whiskey Tango <karl@wesetthehook.com>
SD, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 01:08:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.170.216.135)
Rickster...
Glad to hear from you...
It really IS called noise. It means all the little poopie in a system that is there, but is below the threshold of the meaningful data, and has no measurable effect on the outcome.
You know... the 0.06" drift from coriolis effect, in a 15mph fishtailing wind ;)... don'cha love it.
Whisky...
The Riffle raffle is on, and the details are being worked on. Probably be posted next week.
A safe account etc... and a priest is going to do the picking (so you'z bumz don't go bat shit, when I WIN ;))
Charles...
your last few posts are sounding a lot like TV commercials for Nor-Cal.
Maybe take it over to the emporium??? Ya' think?
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 01:27:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.33)
Thanks for the SITREP lito...
Reminds me of what my Gramps used to tell me....
"What they don't know, won't hurt you."

Tango out.

Whiskey Tango <karl@wesetthehook.com>
SD, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 01:43:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.170.216.135)
Pablito: A real close miss on 'noise'.
Rick: You've been gone too long. The place isn't the same without you.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 01:55:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
CDC...
It depends on your field of research ;)... I don't do stats (or windows;)
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 02:25:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.33)
Fellers!
Trigger go to http://www.accuratereloading.com/577tyr.html
this is the beautifull .577 Tyrannosaur which i belive would give you guys a better velocity and flatter trajectory by using it as you parent case, as it is a modified .600 nitro (modified with a modern rim and not the flat base. you will gain close to 300-400 fps i'd bett Also you would increase its powder diet by up to 25% atleast
thanx lito for giving me the run down on the long p/d shot and
will thanx for giving me the info on the excelerators do they still make factory excelarators even?
Jason <Scion3@Hotmail.com>
loserville, population. . . me, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 04:12:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.117.106.211)
Hey Guys,
My wife is buying me a Lupita Mk4 M3 for my birthday on the 15th. Does anyone have one they want to part with? 10x with Mildots and all the accessories.
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 05:21:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.3.243)
Just to double check some basics... with the M118 special ball, if I shoot my 100m zero at 50m, I should be .7" high. Correct?
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 05:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.3.243)
Tim Gizmo...
"My wife is buying me a Lupita Mk4 M3 for my birthday..."
Marriage is hell, but your doing a great job of enduring ;)
Dude-ski...
Does she have a sister :)
Is she single :)
Does she put up with shooting bumz :)
Does she like Cats :((

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 10:30:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.51)
PAKRAT:
I stumbled across your post to Slugboy a moment ago and got curious. What kind of paper are you working on?
I started off in 3/325, and was 1/508 in Panama. Got out, got educated, worked as a paralegal for 4 years and went back to being around guns for a living.
At any rate, is this some type of legal/sniping paper? If so, maybe I could send you some stuff that could help.
Best Wishes,

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 11:32:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
COUNTER SNIPER RADAR/LASER/SONAR:
Jesus Rick, thanks for the comforting thought!
Can you tell me a bit about these without an OPSEC issue? A general capability rundown and who has them or is developing them and at what echelon they are found? (bet you regret having brought it up now huh?)!
Nothing like being out of the loop and behind the times!
Thanks in advance,

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 12:00:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Jefe,
after I read Master Rick's comments I thought about this same thing.
One scenario that came to my mind was(and I'm a Real Newbie) on this stuff, is what would happen if there were (TWO) Snipers, and spotter teams working the Sonar/laser/Radar systems?.
After all, dead meat or no, the First shot is still king.
So, question, what if one team is dedicated to SLR destruct?.
Second is decoy, how does system respond IF it gets the chance?.
If the beast is taken out, then how can it retaliate?.
How can it chase two different signatures.....presuming operator GET's the chance.
Pondering things that mean nada to me, as a ain't a snapper........
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 13:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.182)
Regarding detection countermeasures....It seems the "decoy" could be non flesh and blood....although any decoy would have to closely coincide with actual intended shot. One would think multiples could be dealt with by the detection system. And it seems reasonable to assume that we once again return to the single well placed, first shot as being the most effective....
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, Ms, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 15:14:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.96.204)
Anti-Sniper Radar/Laser/Sonar...
Not something I have any experience with, but over the years, has there ever been a military weapons system, detection system, or countermeasure system, that hasn't been evaded of foiled by a new system (which is foiled by a new system, which is foiled by...)
I would think (just opinion), that any IR or Radar system that was capable of detecting a bullet in flight, would fill the AO with a hell of a lot of active energy, and be a magnet for small homing devices.
Might be OK for a permenent installation, where the opposition already "konws" that you are there, and probably knows how you like your coffee... like a firebase, and then there is time to install all the equipment, or acustic crap.
But as a defence for a moble unit, Towed weapons, moving vehiciles, or groups on the move... I would think they would still be prime meat for the sniper team...
I'd hate to think that my favorite weapon system is going to be obsolete and extenct because of a little antenna on a stick ;)
Rick-ster? Your fill please?

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's what's for dinner... in the, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 15:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.13)
HIGH TECH STUFF:
First, since I don't know about the equipment, I don't know, but I will say that you can be the decoy, cause I sure as hell don't want to be.
Again, I don't know about the gear, so I really can't say. BUT!
There does come a time when you have to know your limitations. When I hear about stuff like that, I begin to get thoughts of artillery, mortars, airstrikes and gunships in my head. Maybe the equipment operator could watch them coming on his screen while I sit there with a radio in my hand, safe and sound. Call me a chicken if you will (god, I forgot, don't mention chickens on here...)
Either that, or shifting operations to another more vulnerable area of operations. The whole idea behind sniping is to fight on your terms, not theirs. If they have that stuff in place, then I would say you probably don't have the element of surprise left.
But the first step before planning is to know what you're dealing with, which I currently don't.
Not to sound like a quitter, but initiative has to be tempered with a concern to survive also. And just because one area gets denied, or presents extreme risk, there are always easier pickings and in terms of the general sniper mission, you can be fairly flexible.
Maybe move sniper operations to another area and try to ambush the equipment with a line unit or air if they attempt to reposition the equipment to that AO.
(If the equipment is boxed up and moving, I will take my turn as the decoy....)
Looking forward to hearing more about this stuff.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 15:37:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
One thing for sure, the dudes running the super duper sniper snooper couldn't fire on you. If they did, their gizmo would trace the boolit back to them LOL! Thump thump no more BG's! Woops!
Could use those little parachute dummies like they did in WWII. Or, could send sheepies in with a few miniguns to really whack out the gizmo. "That does not compute, that does not compute!"
"Are you still on that damn computer?", Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 15:44:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.143)
Bravo..... Good hearing from ya! Don't get stuck on them Ramen Noodles you can get a decent microwave for under $60. these days.
T Shoes.... I've no experience with counter sniper electronics, but as a former EWO I would point out the Huges system, as deployed on the F14, that can detect and prioritize up to ten different threats (targets) at over one hundred miles distance. And that system has been in regular service for several decades. I shudder to think of the capabilities of todays systems. Didn't Rick mention something about "dead meat"?
Gizmo..... will you sell your secret? The best I've been able to coax out of the 'ol lady for my B-Day so far has been an Oehler 35P;-)
Jason.... .577? NO MAS!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 15:48:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.132)
Jeez - I can't even spell Hughes this morning!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
I don't know, anymore, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 15:51:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.132)
Your "sniper radar" is a doppler radar working in conjunction with a mounted mini-gun of the 7.62 type. It will tell fired from direction, projectile speed and path. By the time all that hooey has been plotted for you the mini has already returned fire.
Yeah you will get your one shot, they will get their bunches of shots. Yes there are the counter measures, hit the radar with the whatever you hit it with, .50, or whatever. With any new weapon there will be the counter measures.
Slugboy,
We had Husquvarna bikes while I was with a scout platoon in the 82nd. Your tactics will have to be rethought, a speedy infil is possible, but we used 2 guys on a bike. One driver with the other as a gunner/spotter. Bikes were ditched and cached according to terrain. You will have to decide.
But what the hey! It's been 11 years since I was in, things change.
Outta here.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 16:35:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.116.70)
WIN 300mag 180gr. ballistic tips
I would like to know if any one has use these in their REM 700P 26"
Have one with an MK4 M3 and always have used FED 190 match. Will the ballistic tips track real close to the match? The ballisics are real close according to Winchester? THANKS Doug
Doug <dkb@pcpartner.net>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 17:38:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.248.113.201)
I recall seeing a similar counter sniper system on the discovery channel about a year ago. It was a series of camera set up in a specific order that recorded the flight of projectiles and plotted each of them out in different colors on a computer screen. When the system was being shown they has a Police or Secret Service agent shoot an MP5 on full auto and it ran each of the 20 to 30 rounds down instantly. Granted these are range type conditions(Would love to see how this thing does in the rain!!!) but according to the program the secret service has been testing/using a system like this for years.
Tony(50buildr) That system your speaking of sounds alot like the phylinks(sp??) that the navy uses. Very destructive maching, would definately not want one on my a@#.
Hope you all survice M-Day.
Chris
"FatBoy"

Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Mothersday Again!!?, TN, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 17:42:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.46)
Anti-radar,laser, sonar, whatever is very simple. You get on your radio and call up the guys with the large guns and you have some DPICM, HE VT, WP and maybe some of these new jammer rounds dumped on their heads. Then while they are busy getting turned into ground chuck that's on fire, you can either shoot(doubt it'll be needed at this point) or adjust more HE or guide in the CAS. The rifle is a weapon of opportunity to be used on targets that don't justify REAL firepower. I worry far more about teaching CFF and nine lines, than I do about teaching wind doping and other good stuff. The sniper is very important as a recon tool and as a shooter in MOUT/FIBUA/MOOTW operations where you don't want to blow hell out of the countryside. If the BG's are fielding high tech stuff like this, than ops are most likely going to justify arty or CAS. If you think(the G2 think's) that the BG's have this tech, and the commander doesn't authorize arty or CAS, then you just find yourself without the opportunity to take your shot. Sad to say, I'm finding that sometimes people in the rear don't take threats seriously because it's not their ass on the line. You are the guy on site, it's your call. You're the one who dies if you're wrong. The highers just have to get off their ass and arrange insert for another team if you go splat. Guess who's going to have more incentive to get it right? Semper Fidelis...Ken M
Ken M <target1371@aol.com>
IL, USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 18:01:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.164)
JASON
TRIED SABOTS IN MY 3006 WITH DIFFERENT POWDERS 4.5 TO 7.5 MOA @100 YDS. AINT WORTH IT
G. L. KANEY
g.l.k. <yenak45@gateway.net>
USA - Sunday, May 13, 2001 at 22:49:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.27.236.45)
Ref: Back on the net
Just returned from R&R.
1,500 miles of Arizona Highways on a Harley.
Now sporting the "Erwin Rommel" face tan.
Is there any practical way to protect eyes from offensive lasers.
I just read some disturbing stuff in the SAR.
out

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 01:28:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.168)
Andy's Dad...
Yes, there are filters that can go on your scope and bins... but you knew that already.
And there are colored gogles that you can wear that will protect your eyes.
They have to be certified for the particular wavelength of the laser... so just because it looks like the "same color" to you, doesn't mean it's the same color to the laser... they are a bit pricy, but afordable ($50 to $100).

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cat... it's what's for dinner... in the, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 01:42:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.124)
'Lito: Some time back you recommended I get an Oehler 35P company direct. I've decided to purchase a 35 with the four foot rail, but......is it worthwhile getting the machine with the printer? We're talking an extra $120 bucks or so. I'm leaning towards getting the printer so I don't have to write between shots. Any comments are appreciated. Thanks.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 02:52:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.125)
Jerry Stordahl...
I had a Oehler 33 that was working fine... but I forgot to make the notes so often, that I was repeating stuff over and over again, all the time.
I bought the 35-P JUST FOR THE PRINTER!!! now, I just fold the printer tape, and put it in the cartridge box, and sort it out at home.
I gave the Oehler 33 to a friend.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 03:15:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)
That system ,is a dopler detector, working off the sound waves of the bullet flying through the air, and yes it can put traces up on a computer monitor as fast as you can pull the trigger, yes that same coputer can swing its gun sites right to its, the bullets, back bering and hit within at least 3moa, would use mini gun mount to spray that 3moa. The biggest thing is the speed it will know where you are before your target hits the floor. Some ham radio nuts came up with idea for other reasons and then was mod. for combat, and yes your local city or town, yes you wont even know LE or not. some of these units are in place now and have been there for the past 4 years. Simi valley CA. has this system. Its a test subject in a small sub-burb population 200,000 all most all house's. They HID' the units on top of telephone poles in plane site. I have noticed simalar things on the poles here in Phx, Az. but I can only guess, here I am out side the loop so to speak. They could be weather systems censers, or ?. Any way they know what room the shot came out of and where the bullet went, all recorded, not to be used, YET.
I'm in for the raffle, all buy one for Bravo to hate to see people lose guns its like kidd napping.
Chad(rem700)
B&B in north Hollywood , No problem, good friend of mine very straight, has good employees, all have to be ex mil. most of them are of the few and proud.
Marius,
Love the site the way it is, think you learn more all mashed together no perfect threads, take what you need style, very nice.
Does someone have a russian to amerkan "translator master" for the cheap mitdot master that I got.
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ., USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 05:52:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
sorry, should have proff read, very tired, need sleep, ...........................................oh i'm still here, night!
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ., USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 05:56:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
I got a cataloge from armalite yesterday.It has a prototypr rifle
called the AR-30.It comes in .308,and .338 lupua mag.It a bad nice looking rifle.I don't know how old the release date on this rifle,or the price.Y'all should check it out.
marcus r thomas <marcus-0311@mallardnet.com>
perry, georgia, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 06:34:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.240.111.171)
Catslayer,
"I gave the Oehler 33 to a friend."
Can I be your friend too? Just think, then you can say "I gave that to my friend down southern tip of the Dark Continent." BIIIIIG :-)
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 08:33:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
Question for 'lito -
Yesterday I adjusted the "Lawyer Trigger" on my Remy 700 using your procedure found in the "Articles" section. Ended up ~3 pounds according to my pull gauge. What a difference! No real problems except it took a couple of tries to get the pin to drop when adjusting the rear screw.
Last night while looking at Bowers' board, I run across a question on setting Remy triggers with a link to this article.
http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/crisp.html
The guy does basically the same thing you do EXCEPT for adjusting the rear screw for the sear letoff. He says that this is preset at the factory (well, so are the front screws, duh) and shouldn't be messed with since the Remy sear isn't "adjustable."
So what is the reason you play with the rear screw and he doesn't?
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 10:32:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.23)
Jim,
There is a similar system made right here in Franklin, TN and has been around for about 6 years now. BIG Story on the guys who invented it when it went public for trading. Forgot the name, but they have it up in Franklin and accordiong to "news channel 5" they have it in about 10 test cities for evaluation.(Big Cities)
Does not have alot to do with field work, unless you're a police office or SS agent, but the system,this particular system, has satalite pics of the city that were scollable on the screen and the microphones triangulated the soundwaves to get a location that is within about 50' dependant upon the number of microphones.
This system may have been augmanted w/ dopler or it may be a different system, but I haven't seen any mini or chain guns on phonepoles or rooftops yet.....
Chris
"FatBoy"
Chris <hepkat0013@aol.com>
Bein' Tracked..., Mid-Tenn, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 11:07:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.21)
I was doing a search for the Levang Linear Compensator and Sniper Country Duty Roster come up. However, I couldn't find the post that mentioned this particular compensator. Do any of you have any experience with this product, especially in if it actually does reduce the noise to the shooter, and by how much. Thanks!!
Orion <orion_vtol@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 13:09:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.41.253.2)
Hey Dudes....found this and thought you might get a kick out of reading this bull crap that I found. It is obvious someone lacks the proper knowledge to identify or describe what a "sniperscope" is. If they were, I guess all of us who resides in California would be in violation of the law -- I think.
Let the comments fly, but let them fly straight and narrow with purpose ;)
____________
California DOJ Firearms Division
2001 Dangerous Weapons Control Law

Sniperscopes

468. Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime. This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/244.htm
Darren...
Semper Fi
Darren <ddong@usmc.net>
San Fran, CA, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 13:18:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.211.20.29)
Marius...
Yes, you can be my friend, but to get freebees, you gotta move here. I can't afford the postage ;)
Moe-ski...
>"since the Remy sear isn't "adjustable"<
HA (as Pat would say). There are a lot of "tinkerers" around who "no not of what they speak".
The sear engagment IS adjustable (that's why there is a screw there).
As you said, the whole trigger is adjusted by Rem (by their lawyers).
At one time (when I was a young puppy, WAaaay before any of youz bums were born ;), the Rem rifles came with instructions on how to adjust the trigger, as did ALL rifles... you were expected to adjust the trigger when you got it, just like you ajust the seats in a new car.
The lawyers got hold of it, and you see what followed.
The guy who wrote that, either doesn't know the Rem trigger very well, or is afraid of getting sued.
Orion...
Are you talking about the "Vang" compensator?? It is considered one of THE best comps around.
Search for "Vang".
The guy that made them moved to Greece a few years ago, and has just returned and set up a new Shop in the land of Arazonia... he should be doing work in a month or two.
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Cat fondue... nice with brandy sauce, in the, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 13:59:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.85)
I don't think that's the same thing. I went to a site that had the Vang. It had to do with shotguns.
What I'm looking for is information on the Levang Linear compensator. It goes on a threaded AR.
Orion <orion_vtol@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 14:33:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.41.253.2)
Orion,
When I get home tonight after course (+4 hours) I'll try (my wife had a rough day at the office, so I might not be able to) and search for that compensator in the archives - I've got them all on my hard drive at home (obviously).
Catslayer,
Moving is not an option! Maybe if it is worth it, the friend can take a look at the shipping :-)
If I get to work on the PC tonight hopefully I can give you guys something to play with.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 14:50:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
Thanks, Marius! If you find anything, feel free to mail it to:
orion_vtol@yahoo.com

My appreciation!!!
Orion <orion_vtol@yahoo.com>
USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 15:32:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.41.253.2)
'lito -
Just as I thought. "Hey, guys, let's put a screw on the back of the trigger just for the hell of it!"

Marius/Orion -
Lang Linear Compensator. This was briefly discussed only a couple of months ago, maybe around February? I don't think much came of it.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Ratone - mouth of the rat - goes well with cat!, FL, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 16:19:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.88.196.211)
Morning Hogs..
Another crappy weekend 30 and 25mph winds!! Today is dead calm, of course. I did get out Friday after work, had to move my course to another location so the guy could plant some trees.
After I set up some steel I tried ranging it with the new Lica 800 and it didn't pick up my targets so I tried guessing the range (To know avail I might add) So after several misses I found the size of them in my log book and milled them.
The first one was right at 500yds and the second one was around 640yds so I dialed it in and dumped a couple at each one and smacked them both twice with the 6.5x284.
Upon inspecting the steel I noticed, to my surprise, that it had two very pronounced craters in it where it was hit by the 140s. I was surprised because we had shot these all last year with the 08s and the 260s with out even a blem in the plate!!I guess any doubts about retained energy can be put to rest now!!
Rick..
You just confirmed what Ken and 'lito and I were trying to tell Dean. I live in the wind and I know how fast it can change from one second to the next. I don't think Dean thinks about all the info that "HE" subconsiously puts into the equation from his experience. Thats something that has to be learned from a lot of shooting and can't be spit out of a computer and programed into the scope.
'lito..
If you presist on this war on my fury little friends I will have to call in the big guns, PETA!!!(HA)
Bravo..
Glad to see you still kicking, hang in there it will get better!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 16:26:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
Pat...
PETA as in:
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals
???????
I resemble that remark!
Steve <s_uhall@riflemen.net>
South West, Pa, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 18:45:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.107.135.116)
BMG Mike...
where is that range in Stephenville? I've got friends there, been there many times, and never knew it was there. Thanks
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
Texas, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 19:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.162)
Found this information on the M40A3 Sniper rifle. If you are interested in which company is supplying what then this should be of interest. If this is "old news" to the majority, then I apologize.
http://www.ld.com/cbd/archive/2001/01(January)/24-Jan-2001/10sol001.htm
Semper Fi,

Paul Cockerham <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 19:32:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)
Gents,
Found this info and thought some of you might find it interesting. If you would like to know which companies are supplying what components (not all) for the M40A3 then go here:
http://www.ld.com/cbd/archive/2001/01(January)/24-Jan-2001/10sol001.htm
I apologize to those of you who find this to be "old news."
Semper Fi,

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 20:22:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)

Changed Duty Roster

Hogs, take a look at THIS and tell me what is wrong.
But PLEASE!!!!!! First play with it a bit, and then tell me. And be specific. Don't be like a difficult user "Nothing works!!" when it is actually only 1% that doesn't!
Time to log off now, but I'll take a look at the comments tomorrow at work.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 21:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.37)
Orion,
Go back to the archives for April 2001, between 03 and 07. There was one question and one answer to your question - that's all.
Look for the post of "Thursday, April 05, 2001 at 00:31:00" to see the reply.
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 21:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.37)
Ref: .50 BMG Shoot at Ft. Drum
Are any of you hogs going to the FCSA shoot at Ft. Drum over Memorial Day weekend?
I'm thinking of going up as a "strap hanger".
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, May 14, 2001 at 23:13:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.44)
Andy's Dad...
I'm going to Fort Drum, and so is Tony (50bldr)...
Come up and watch me get cleaned and pressed ;)... if they will allow it, you can take a round or three out of mine, Andy too!
Bring earmuffs... BIG earmuffs ;), and a spotting scope to watch the shock trails.
'lito (Scooter's Dad:))
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
- Monday, May 14, 2001 at 23:39:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.102)
Cheapo Remington Core-Lokt ammo :
I've recently started shooting some of the cheapy Remington low-grade hunting ammo. There seem to be 2 major flavors. 150 grain, and 180 grain. Now, from what I've seen, the 180 grain is just complete crap. The 150 shoots nice and straight, with even predictable groups. The 180 is all over the place. So bad in fact that I was checking my scope to see if it had been knocked loose.
Is this kind of huge accuracy difference typical for your low grade ammo? Granted, I was shooting the 180 at the end of the day, and the barrel was significantly hotter, but I can't imagine that would make such a difference.
After a few rounds I looked at the cartridges and they seemed like they might be a bit old. But the place I got them from just opened < 1 year ago, so....
Anyway, I'm not a handloader so I'm just wondering if this kind of nutty difference in performance is to be expected.
Dave B <daveb196@home.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 00:29:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.76)
Mayhem
The range is about 16 Mi NW. of Stephenville on Hwy 108(iirc), toward Mingus. There's a Rampant Lion sign on the E. side of the road. GPS 32.435 N, 98.357W.
The URL is http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com. There's rifle up to 1k yards, and lots of shorter ranges for pistol or subgun. Several guys on the roster shoot there.
There will be about 4 .50 cal rifles there this weekend, as well as some smaller cal stuff.
Mike
BMG Mike <bmgman@swbell.net>
Austin, Republic of Texas - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 02:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.123.14.213)
Hogs:
Raffle alert... okay gang... I have the all clear to do the raffle and have all things in place. I have one minor detail to confirm with George Gardner regarding the rifle. I understand he will be back in town on Wednesday.
We should be able to kick the raffle off on wednesday evening. Or if I hear from George before then.
I will post a note on here and there will be a banner link on the snipercountry home page as well.
We have some Mildot Masters to give away too - Compliments of Bruce Robinson of MilDot Enterprises (http://www.mildot.com)
Im thinking this will be alot of fun all the hogs...
stay tuned... we're just about there...
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA (God Bless It!) - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 02:39:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Thanks 'Lito: I'm ordering the 35P with printer.....been waiting too long. No more loading riddles. First task will be testing 175 SMKs in the Sharpshooter. Up until now, I've been shooting 168s and some old match 173 gr stuff. Thanks again. I like this roster.
Jerry Stordahl <jtmstor@rrv.net>
Halstad, MN, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 02:43:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.10.31.56)
Ken, try to talk George into letting the lucky winner choose his own caliber! Within reason of course!
Not going to name her yet, was bad luck last time.
Bad luck Bolt, out!

I still hate painting!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 02:55:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.203)
Andy's Dad...
The dates for the Fort Drum match are July 6, 7, 8 (not Memorial Day)... I will send you info in a few weeks, when I get my shooter's package.
Scooter's Dad ;)))
PAblito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 03:33:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.63)
Dave B: For off the shelf, utility grade hunting ammo that 180 gr. Rem core-lokt is good for putting down medium large game at the usual hunting ranges. Its a fine choice for hunting big pigs. I don't cuss a crowbar for not being a baseball bat.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 03:42:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
Howdy Gents,
BMG Mike:
Thanks for the info. on the range. I look forward to going down there and trying my hand at some real distance. My farthest to date is 200 yds. at A Place To Shoot, where a San Antonio SWAT sniper told me I was doing pretty good. If you happen to see a flat topped white guy, with a Rem. 700 VS and SA scope, who looks like he is acting like he knows what he is doing, it's probably me.
Hogs:
I have just finished my .308 project, and now I'm thinking of going to a long action. I just sold my Win Classic Laredo in 300WM, so I have $1000 to spend, and an old Win push feed long action to start with. The only thing that I am missing right now is the caliber. I don't know what I should build. I was thinking about 300RUM, but I can buy a Sendero in that cal. for less. Does anyone have any recomendations. I want it for long distance work, and big game hunting. Thanks in advance!
Mayhem Out.
More can be accomplished with a sile and a gun, than with just a smile alone!
(Al Capone)
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 05:24:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.106.22)
Chris:
Could not elaborate last night, not many chances for sleep lately. Guns would be on top of APC, (not telephone poles) W/ a computer in its belly, and a smaller than you would think antenna culster, maybe with some thermal or FLUR sighting system. This unit would be parked in the middle of a bad guy enriched area in some left bank type city. Never know what hit them.
'lito
friend of mine up N. CA. (bow hunter) has a 13yr old that "practiced" his archery skill on one of the old fat lady's cats down the street, well, I could hear all the yellin down the street the dad was pissed, poor kid was grounded for month's. Know why? not a clean shot, the dam kat got all the way back home, the lady came over with the arrow and barny fife. Dad didn't care 'bout kat pissed his son muffed the shot.
So. CA. friend hit one with BB gun (not to kill, just alittle hey quit crappin on my porch type thing) well owner came by with, police woman and he went to the station to fill out reports (with his evil black assalt red rider) that they wouldn't give back for two months becuz they are trying to match the BB in the cats face with the ones in the gun. u know standard F.B.I forensic smooth bore matching.
Anyway sorry for the long post, morel is use enuff to drop the F#@%$'er. I like the under niegbors porch thing, hilarious.
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 07:34:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
Hey Marius, the new thang looks neat, I agree on the colours though, a bit bright.I still like the "old" format though,like a fireside chat.
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
damn windy , downunder, keep yer chin up Bravo - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 09:29:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.87.27.189)
Ref: Cats
A good friend of mine is a "neurologist".
We've discussed the unique nature of a cat's nervous system.
They can operate for a period of time without a "CPU".
A ten pound Tabby can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
If you insist on bowhunting might I suggest a fishing arrow.
That way you can play ol' Tom like a tarpon.
Just be sure to set your drag so as to tire him out before trying to gaff him into the boat.
If you choose to induce a case of the .22 flu careful shot placement is important. It is not uncommon for a well shot feline to put up quite a fight before slipping his mortal coil. The cat hunter is well advised to have a sharpened E-tool ready incase things get dicey.
Finally, the meat can be quite strong and gamy and should be parboiled before broiling. Frankly it gives me gas.
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 11:43:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
MILDOT MASTERS:
After seeing the website URL posted, I finally checked one out and think they are nothing short of OUTBLANKINGSTANDING (as long as they work!).
Who designed this thing? And does anyone know of any efforts to market these to the military? Appears to me, that no sniper should be without one and they can't be too expensive.
All the formulas are easy enuf to work out on a range, but if the pressures really on and they are bad guys downrange, even working out a simple 6 digit grid can't be a challenge (OK, anything in 6 digits is a challenge to me...and we aren't talking about my salary unfortunately).
Another Golden Nugget from the SC Message Board!
MARIUS:
Jeez, talk about giving everything to everybody! Great work!

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 11:57:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Gents,
Here is a news release for the "Counter-Sniper System" developed by SAIC. Copy and paste this address(someone please tell me how make this a link).
www.saic.com/news/sept96/news09-04-96.html or try this,
www.spie.org/scripts/toc.pl?volume=2938&journal=SPIE
There seems to be much information on these systems.
Also FYI, gun shows this weekend in Bealeton, VA and Richmond, VA.
Semper Fi,

Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 13:03:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)
Marius,
Appreciate all the thought and work you put into the new format but I like the old one better!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 13:12:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
Since some post here about the new format, I'll put what I've put on there on here as well.
Marius
'Lito (or is is Cabrito? (sp):-)
Help me out here - Torsten, you too - since you're the only two that has thus far really expressed your dislike here. What is it exactly that you don't like?

Remember, I'm not trying to be difficult, or to force an idea down. This has been very long in forming - I just didn't have the know-how before the almost courses I'm stil not finished with. Since we actually started with Sniper Country we've had sporadic comments about the Roster format. About how it can be difficult to read and, and here you'll definately agree, how information can "disappear" between all the posts.

What I am trying to achive here is a "golden down-the-middle" solution. Therefore the three display formats. For those (and here I keep repeating, like myself) who like the current formats - both are still there. Albeit a bit busier, but one can look at maybe reducing the font for the view/reply/edit line slightly. So, for those that wants to read everything as it was posted - no problem. You still can!

But, at the same time we're also making provision for those that DON'T want to try and wade through all the stuff they're not interested in. They can just go to the threaded view and feel like they're on any other board.

One thing I like, and will use, with this new format, is the ability to view a specific thread out of the whole. Often had I wondered, especially when not following the Roster on a daily basis, what prompted a certain answer. And to try and find that can be darn difficult! Now it will be easy.

Of course there are slight drawbacks to anything worthwhile. Here the drawback is having to organise one's replies, and keeping them to the related threads, instead of replying an all-in-one plate of answers. And this is where the most contention is I feel. People don't seem to like the idea? Or is it merely the idea of change?

I don't know yet how practical it will be, but at a later stage I can look into being able to reply to multiple posts at once - but that will actually nullify the whole idea about allowing some to view relevant threads only. But, if I do look at that, it will be a while, as once we've sorted this out (whatever this is) my next thing is to rewrite the whole PX for Scott. That (and this Roster!) is actually my project that I've chosen to hand in as an assignment the end of the month. So I've got some loads of work still to do before then!! More than required for the assignment, but something that I can really use, and not just as an example of "I've done this".

Remember, this is not fixed yet!! This is actually my idea, and has been bounced off the rest of the staff only slightly! In the end, after all has been said, we'll have to take a look at everything and decide whether we'll go this format or not!

Whether threads go or stay, the ability to edit posts will stay. As will the need to have JavaScript enabled.

BUT, if we don't go threads I will most probably have to kill the HotTips section, as I simply don't have the time to maintain it. It is simply too much work to work through the Roster and sort everything out into "threads" like I've done.

I started the HotTips way back when we were still three or four updating the site, and I had more time to spend on that - the Roster and Emporium has been my babies since the start.

Comments?

Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 13:41:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
Diabolical Jefe...
You need to go read... Naw, I won't say it, I'll be good :((
The Dude that invented the Mildot Master posts here on the Duty Roster all the time... once or twice a week. And, Yes, it works very well, and can even be used by a dummy like me.
It is lightning fast, and very accurate. I think it's about $20-ish bucks.
You can get the Rooskie rip-off version for 147,000 ruples, but you have to read Rooskie to use it.
Marius...
>"What is it exactly that you don't like?"<
Us "Old Geezers" are like "Micky"... we don't like ANYTHING.
'specially anything that changes... it challenges our few remaining neurons ;)).
The only reason I was a lurker on SC for 3 years, was it took that long to figure out how to post anything ;)
Cat-'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 14:03:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)
Strange that folks in different parts of the country find the feline types to be a nuisance. The ones running around my neighborhood are a big help in keeping the pest population down. They kill off the annoying car-poop-bombing winged variety as well as the rats.
I know the cat-piss thing can get nasty, but a super-soaker filled with ammonia or vinegar ends that situation pronto.
Shooting any animal with the intent to cause suffering, not to kill, makes a statement about the "man" that is damning in my book.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 14:26:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)
The hustlers have discovered "SC"...
I just got this POS from a low life, scum suckin' piece of motherless, garbage picking, degenerate crap.. (and that's the POLITE version ;)
========================================================
Pablito
I am 23 years old son of General Robert GUEI, the former President of Cote`D Iviore, my father before he was removed from power in Ivoire`d Cote deposited the sum of $21million (Twenty-one Million Dollars) with a security Company in Accra, Ghana, with an instruction that the money should not be released to me till I am 30years old or should be released only to someone above that age that can help our family to invest it in any oversea countries.
I need your assistance in taking this fund out, as my father is under house arrest and want me to call a reliable person to assist our family.
I am presently in Ghana and you can call me on Tel: 233-24-252498 and you will be greatly compensated, thanking you for your time......Andre Guei
=========================================================
CDC... you were right...
Since this is the only site I use "Pablito" on, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure where he got this...
SO... Andre Guei, READ THE GODAMN DUTY ROSTER A-R-C-H-I-V-E-S... We busted you jerks two months ago!!!
<..."and want me to call a "reliable person" to assist our family.">
Man, did you get the wrong number ;)
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 14:29:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.137)
'Lito
sick'em 'lito.
Mayhem <killare@hotmail.com>
Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 14:41:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.158)
Cats,
You know these critters are quite tough. I like how people treat their kids like pets and their kids like pets. If you add an 's' into pets i.e. pe(s)ts you get pests. I havent found a ferrell cat yet that leaves much evidence behind from a 220 Swift or a .17 Rem. Kinda like a plutonium core going critical. Heh, heh. Be advised, I don't enjoy vaporizing these things, they can be dangerous and or annoying.
If it were a pet, I got a solution. Try using a wrist rocket with a ice cube, not the singer, but frozen water. lol.
A good trick for dogs crapping on your lawn is a paintball right up the cazoo. I usually don't bother cause my dog usually poays the neighbor back pretty good.

BMG stuff.
Well got all the reloading equipment for rolling .50 BMG stuff. We are concidering building a .50 BMG Akley Improved 40 degree. A distant future project. Perhaps even a jobbie patterned after the .30 Gibbs. Any input would be great. We are also going to tinker with sabots with .30 165gr AP pills.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 15:56:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.179)
Cats,
You know these critters are quite tough. I like how people treat their kids like pets and their kids like pets. If you add an 's' into pets i.e. pe(s)ts you get pests. I havent found a ferrell cat yet that leaves much evidence behind from a 220 Swift or a .17 Rem. Kinda like a plutonium core going critical. No bullet or cat, just copper and DNA mist Heh, heh. Be advised, I don't enjoy vaporizing these things, they can be dangerous and or annoying.
If it were a pet, I got a solution. Try using a wrist rocket with a ice cube, not the singer, but frozen water. lol.
A good trick for dogs crapping on your lawn is a paintball right up the cazoo. I usually don't bother cause my dog usually poays the neighbor back pretty good.

BMG stuff.
Well got all the reloading equipment for rolling .50 BMG stuff. We are concidering building a .50 BMG Akley Improved 40 degree. A distant future project. Perhaps even a jobbie patterned after the .30 Gibbs. Any input would be great. We are also going to tinker with sabots with .30 165gr AP pills.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 15:58:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.179)
Gents,
Perhaps I'm an old softie, but I find shooting cats to be distasteful.
Every time I look at my old buddy "Tiny" I get a warm fuzzy. He's a real character and an integral part of our household.
I'm assuming we are talking feral cats here, however. Give no quarter, in that case. Same with feral dogs. Have few of either in my neck of the woods, but had lots in the desert around 29 Palms, CA.
My 1stSgt and I would call them in and dispatch them with rifles and shotguns.
As with any animal, you are duty bound to end it quick and clean. One Shot, One Kill.
I find the suppressed Swedish "K" or MP5 to be superb for this type of activity. Now if I could just add an NVD to the MP5 I'd be good to go...only use the 9MM's until things get straightened out and I can afford that short barreled .308...;-)
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Bldogett, OR, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 16:13:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.64)
Nom de' Plume (a.k.a. Wes ;)...
'course were talking about feral cats (and dogs)... no body's gonna break into your house, and whack "Tiny" while he's curled up in front of the fireplace.
Even in Bridgeport (the biggest city in the state)... a few years ago there were several dangerous feral dog packs that kept people out of the parks, and off the beaches.
When the law wanted to take them out with .22rf's, good ol' P.E.T.A. was there to protect the feral dog's "rights".
This is about feral "Varmints" not house pets...
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 16:28:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.125)
Wont be home until 23 May but checking in with you Nastiesm PIGs and HOGs. M40A3 is a great rifle and I have a new M40 USMC Scope Style KNobbed US Optics SN3 1.8x10x44 with 30 mm tube to play with. This scope is Out Fng Standing!. Look out Leupold
Marius, on Pablitos side leave the DR alone. It is the only board I check daily because all the other so called great ones take too much bounching around to get the days info. This one is quick and user friendly.
Pat, I completrely agree with you the enviornement changes so quickly you just go for what you know and let the round rip. I keep it as simple as I can:
Temp
Altitude
Wind I look about 50 yards ahead take a visual reading (Atleast --mph but no more than --mph0 and then do the same thing about every two to three hundred yards. I generally put more value on the close wind unless it is slight and the far is great.
Range
Angle
Now I can do this in a few seconds but I still look to make certain conditions did not change while I farted around. Seems to work OK for an old unqualified shooter like me. Well thats what someone who uses four pages of math to take one shoot,said to me awhile back. The worse score I shot on the USMC unknown distances courses this last week was a 98 out of 100. Never used a scientific calculator once so it must all be luck.LOL
On a note that some may know and most wont. I tested some of the 118LR ammo and damm they have that 175 moving fast. It ran from a low of 2800fps to nearly 2900fps. 2800 was from a M40A1 and 2900 was from a Rice built 26" KxP bbl fire stick. For comparison the 26 KxP rifle only gets 2675 out of Federal 175's.
All for now I will try and catch up with you guys soon.

By the way the stalking phases will kick and old guy like me's butt
Semper Fi
Undude
MikeMiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 17:24:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.56)
Hello,
I am a Swiss target shooter interested in acquiring a sharpshooting / sniping rifle.
Currently, my experience is in the 300 m. range (this is the standard distance used in military discipline and sports shooting). At this distance, shooting takes place without scope. Excellent matchers routinely achieve ½ MOA at this distance, without scope.
I would like to experiment at longer distances, i.e. 600m. and above. For this purpose, I need a good sharpshooting / sniping rifle. Caliber is not an issue, and will obviously be .308 win. For the rifle and scope, I've followed Boston Tea Party's advises, and my current choice would be the following specs:
Rifle: Savage Arms Model 12VSS 'Varminter'
http://www.savagearms.com/new/centerfire/long_range/lr_12vss.htm
Scope: Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm Long Range M3 (includes a BDC)
I would like to know if any of you "more experienced shooters" own a Savage long-range model and what you think of it. I also have no experience with BDCs, so I would like to know what you think about this device. Which Leupold scope - or any other brand - would you recommend, given the aforementioned distance and caliber requirements?
Thanks in advance for your comments,
Regards,
Alban Schmid <alban@urbanet.ch>
Switzerland - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 17:47:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.202.209.41)
I'M LOOKING FOR EVERYONE'S INPUT!!!
I am making plans to lay out a long distance range, and would like to build it right from the beginning. Everything is still in its infancy, but I'd like to work out some details for the range itself
What features on a long range have you enjoyed, or disliked? What is a good beginning range, and how far out would you like to see a range go? I'd like to make a quality range to challenge even the distance extreems of a 50 BMG.
Creating various shooting challenges would also be of interest in the layout. For example, same target at the same distance, but at different heights (up and down).
Any safety features that I should plan on, or work in that may be above "code" but be a really good idea?
Any and all input would be appreciated! In the meantime, I will go back to reading the archives. Thanks all! Wolfgang
Wolfgang <duncan_wolfgang7@yahoo.com>
Cleveland, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 18:06:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.29.130.125)
Phalanx is an anti-missile system mounted on large naval warcraft (carriers, etc.). Only a few hundred years AD it referred to a bunch of cast iron clad soldiers with big shields - defense has come a ways since then ...
Interestingly, during the testing of early Phalanx threat assessment they encountered a 'funny' flaw. If more than a critical number of incoming threats were detected the threat priority program would fire at NONE of them.
Rex <izrafil@pacbell.net>
Bay Area, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 18:49:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.198.191.2)
'lito..
Thanks alot Buddy, I threaten you with PETA and you give the "Con" man my name so he can con me out of my money now!! (Of course he will share the 23 million with me(HA).
Undude..
Thats what I have found too Mike, over the years you just develope a feeling for the shot your going to take. Sometimes its not the right one but you still get pretty damn close. I think the subconscious just computes it without you realizing your doing it. It comes from years of shooting.
I absolutly agree with you on the stalking thing. We had to do a long stock in Nebraska at a match and it nearly killed me!! Its definatly a young mans game, at my age I live on Ibuprofen(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 19:21:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
Mike Miller said, "Well thats what someone who uses four pages of math to take one shot,said to me awhile back."
Who has time for that crap? I've heard of people like that but have never met anyone who actually used a calculator or pencil and paper. A guy should be able to do any shooting calculation in his head in three seconds max.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 19:39:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
FLASH TRAFFIC.......
I just got a phone call from my riflesmith.
The M40A1 should be done on Saturday.
I was planning on developing 175 loads to go 2,685 so they would track with the .30-06 dial on the M3LR. Can I get a check on that?
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 19:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)

THE END

Forget about a threaded Duty Roster. It is dead, and will not live longer than tomorrow night. I'll use this experience gained to better the existing one.
OUT!
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 20:49:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 155.239.180.61)
Hogs,
Does anyone know how I can find out historical information on a gun by using it's serial number? My dad has an old Walther P38 that was made in france on the slide it says manufacture de machines, du haut-rhine, and then I'm assuming the name of the manufacturer, manurhin. the serial number is 224948, and all numbers match (i know you can get a "hand picked" mauser w/ matching numbers from places like the shotgun news, etc...so I don't know if this is genuine or not) however, on the left hand surface of the slide, there are three (3) markings....one is the Nazi symbol of the eagle w/ swastika in it's talons (third reich?) another is two cannons criss-crossed w/ the number 3 above the cannons and 34 below. The third symbol is indestinguishable. It also has A.E. CO., N.Y.C. above the trigger guard on the left hand side. Do I have a genuine article here, fellas? Cuz if I do, I'll make sure my dad hangs on to it, otherwise I'm gonna go trade it off.
Any info will be appreciated,
thanks, and God Bless
-Seebs
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 21:40:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.166.167)
We sure can be a reactionary bunch! Us old farts are threatened by change. I get real pissed at the ol' lady if she changes just one ingredient in the Gumbo.
Undude mentioned some high speeds from the M118LR sniper load. I wonder if they're using RE15? Anybody?
It probably never gets warm enough in Switzerland to warp a Savage synthetic stock:-)
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 21:42:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.68.11)
Oops,
the markings are on the right hand side, not left...my bad
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 21:49:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.166.167)
Wolfgang,
If you are really serious about developing a range, a good first step is to contact the NRA. They teach a range development course that takes about 4-days or so. You will learn about selecting a location, financials, developing a business plan, safety, facilities, environmental regulations, and a bunch of other stuff that will keep you from getting into trouble. Do the research. Then have a beer. It's a big job.
Duman <steve_duey@hp.com>
Denver, CO, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 22:53:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 15.254.49.2)
Ben...
I have a Walther PPK with the same "Manurhin" stuff on it... here's the skinny on Manurhin (Manufacture de Machines de Rhin, or Rhine
Machine Works).
Two parts to this story:
1. During the last months of WWII, the Mauser factory in Oberndorf was captured by and subsequently run by the French. They turned out some quantity of P38 pistols, stamped them SVW-45 and SVW-46 (SVW was the Nazi code for Mauser factory) and distributed to own troops. The legality of this action was questioned for some time, but they got away with it. Some of the guns bear the Manurhin proof mark, because that's where they got shipped to get proof tested. SVW-46 is rare and expensive. The French eventually dismantled the machinery and took it to Mahurnin, for reasons below.
2. After the WWII, the defeated Germany was prohibited to engage in small arms manufacture (or any arms, for that matter) for quite some time, late 50s if I remember correctly. So, the enterprising Carl Walther trucked his remaining machinery from Ulm across the border to Alsace, to the Manurhin factory. Manurhin already had some experience making Walther pistols (see part 1). Carl set up the machines, and went back into business, turning out PPs, PPKs and TPHs. Perfectly legal. The guns were stamped Manurhin. Carl liked the arrangement very much, and it continued well into the 1980s. After Germany was allowed to make arms again, Walther continued to make the pistols in France, ship them to Germany, proof fire them in Ulm, and mark them Walther - made in Germany. You see, according to European law, the place where the gun is proof-fired is considered the gun's country of manufacture. So, all Walther pistols made in the 1940s through 1970s were machined and assembled in France.
Good old Manurhin reserved the right to sell the product too, and the French-proofed guns have the Manurhin marks, with a Walther logo as well.
This caused a problem for resellers. Walther is a registered trademark in the US, so when Interarms started importing Manurhins into the US, the newly-made guns did not have the Walther logo, and the used guns originally made for the French market had the Walther logo stamped over with XXXXX.
These guns are nice, equal in every way to the German product.
... aren't you glad you asked ;)))
The second choice solution for bad kitties (if you are squeamish about .177 Beeman pointed Diablo pellets)...
http://members.aol.com/m35a2duece/catcarrier.jpg
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 23:10:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.103)
Alan,
yeah, RL 15, @ 44.3 grains is the story.........
Figure it's Win brass, don't know the primer........
Got a # of the RL today, am fixin to do some tests.......
Said the RL beat the "Extremes", hands down.
We'll see..............(:
Running that fast, you may as well be usin a 300 ..............
Talk about barrel burners..........
Sniper's Paradise is having some built to specs @ 2800........
AND I thought THAT was HOT..............
The RL powder is made in "Sweden", and says it is consistent in ALL enviro swings...........
Like I said, we'll see.........
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 23:22:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.179)
Lito,
Where would I be without you ;)
Thank you very much for that wealth of information, it coincides beautifully with the research I did on the net. So, you're a historian, physicist, shooter, sheep connouisure[sp?], lover of large-black moustached women, nightmare of cats everywhere, have I missed anything? Man, I'd hate to see what you put on your Resume' :)))
Any Ideas about the markings though? I'd hate to think that they were "added" by someone hoping to get more money out of it. I love the idea that maybe it was in the hands of a german officer as the allies drove across france, or as they stormed the beaches of normandy...hell, it'd just be cool if it was genuine. Where would I find the "SVW" if it had one? I'm gonna milk you for all you're worth on this one ;))
thanks again, and God bless
Ben
Ben <b_seibert@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 23:38:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.189.218)
Ref: Heavy is Good?
I just read the Chandlers' article in AR. They make a persuasive argument for heavy rifles. (but not too heavy)
Good, now that's settled.
Lito, check to see if it's (Diabolo or Diablo)
out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 23:45:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.54)
Marius:
Its good to try and make things better, to strive for greatness, its a great asset. but, this site is for looooonnnnnggg range shooting and well you know its yours. LR shooters hate change. Things change, they miss. Either the X-ring or the latest B.S. on 'lito's kat hunting tech. on poor Bolts sniper dog with the stiches in his belly, how bout PD bowling, or how to curl the burlap on the blonde gillie, iron or curlers etc. You know the important stuff!
Question? Why cann't you make the thread portion shooter enabled?
If the post is thread specific hit the "post to thread" button, and not only will it post on this page and be recordable, but it would post on the other and record or not it would be easyer to group them to the archives.
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Tuesday, May 15, 2001 at 23:55:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
Kevin,
Depending on chamber and brass 43.5-44.0 gr of VARGET should do the trick. Mine gives me VERY close to the 2685 with a crapola OEM barrel.

'Lito,
Beeman sucks, and so does "his" pellets! Most are just H&N pellets jacked up to sky high prices and put in a pretty box or re-labeled.
Bottom line - Crosman Premier 10.5 gr or H&N Barakuda 10.6 gr for accuracy and killing power. POINTY HEADS??!! YOU DON'T EVEN WANT TO THERE WITH ME................... ;-)
The "Blue Ribbon" Scopes are crap too, bought two both went tits up with broken reticles, within two tins of pellets 1000 rnds approx./Got Leupolds EFR's then NO PROBLEMS.

Standing down from AIRGUN rant mode for 0430 wake up call.

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Big City, By-Gawd, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 00:49:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.103.26)
Marius...
Something I WOULD like to see changed (or fixed)...
When you type a post in the box, on the top of this page, and hit "Submit your comments"... you go to the intermediate page with the text layed out as it will appear... but the entry is ALREADY POSTED.
In the intermediate page, I often see mistakes (mostly wrong "CR's" and spelling) that mess it up, and then I want to go back, but can't, because it's too late.
How 'bout making the "Submit" button into a "See your entry" button.... it would take you to the intermediate page, but not post it yet... you can see how it looks, and maybe catch spelling or formating errors.
Then you could do "BACK" if you wanted to change it, or then hit "Post your entry", and go to the Roster page, with your entry posted??
Would be nice if the semi-auto switch was "Off", so double (or quadruple) posts wouldn't happen...
What do you think
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 00:51:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.103)
...PELLET GUNS!!!....We Doeneednosteeking Pellet Gun....We gossa bow an sum r's fo dem silent pussycat shots.......;)
Mark Smith <Windinmane@aol.com>
Lake Cormorant, MS, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 01:28:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.23)
ESPANOL:
Diabloazul means Blue Devil. Thats what we called Labatt's Blue beer so it only seemed appropriate.
By the way, I just wanted you all to know, that almost all the women here look as good as Miss Colombia on the Miss Universe pagent and that mini skirts are still in style.
Beautiful women, cheap beer, tax free money, cheap beer, beautiful women, flirting with women at work is not only acceptable but well received, what a place!
I always wanted to come here after hearing about that movie
"Guerillas in the Mist."
hehe

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 02:18:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Hogs - Raffle:

Okay - all is set. The raffle will be going hot tomorrow .... probably mid day - into the afternoon.
Check by here for the note and check the snipercountry home page.
George Gardner will be letting the winner pick:
1. caliber
2. color of camo
3. color of teflon finish
Of course - these choices are within reason... within what he has available in stock.
I will post the link to the Raffle entry form, etc.
Stay tuned.
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 02:38:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Jefe-
Just because you were deported don't try to drag us down that path! Some us us don't need any help ;).........
Stand by for an email on equipment.
Blue beer my A**...more like blue ba***. HA!
Take care-Mike T
Mike T <Riflemike@home.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 02:48:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.11.197.193)
Ken,
How will a randomly generated riffle raffle ticket be selected?
Just wonder'n
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 03:38:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
MIKE:
You LEA types always get the goods on people don't you?!!
And you were right about the BB part. Remember, I was in Vermont. The state that ran the only strip club out of the state because it was immoral, then voted for fags to marry eachother.
I guess the good thing about that is you don't have to be embarrassed that you didn't get any for a while; it can actually be a badge of pride!
OK, sorry folks, I have been in the field almost 40 days and my trip in is coming up next week!

Jefe
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
God's Country - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 03:44:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
MIKE(S):
Are all LEA types on this site named Mike?
Anyways, a good buddy of mine from Customs is at Fort Benning for a year at that high speed urban combat site. If you guys can get time to go down there, let me know and I will pass on the email info.
He is a good guy, but be advised, any stories he tells about me are vicious lies!
Funny story about him. After they passed the Fag Marriage law, I called his office at the Federal Bldg and left a message with his secretary that his "Life Partner" called. He in turn got the Fag Marriage License Paperwork from the town clerk and faxed it to my office!
Better yet, he shows up in plainclothes one day with 2 uniformed city cops to go to lunch (at my office). I am coming back from lunch with a secretary as he walks out and they see me and point and go "THERE HE IS!"
The secretary automatically assumed the worst and looked at me in
whorror. (It usually takes at least 2-3 lunches for that, this one was special!).
Anyways, I had to "share" that.
And MM; I get out of the field on the 23rd too! 40 days straight out and a night on the town!
Can anyone tell I'm ready?

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 04:13:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Ken, OK - tell George I want a .338LM in a green/black camo :)
'Lito - Gee, and here I was eliminating the local population - those "here kitty kitty" words by local pre-teen girls were occasionally disheartening but I kept steeling myself for I was being trained by THE MASTER SNIPER - and nothing like a little common sense was going to get in my way - move over Mall Ninja.
Marius - thank you - my day just would not be the same with out some of the asinine thing that go on here.
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 04:15:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)
Jefe: SOLD! Where do I sign?
Pete: I'm with you on Beeman. And those blue-light special scopes are absolute crap.
Leetle Pablo: Our cats are tougher than your cats. Unless you very carefully knock out its CPU, our Rocky Mountain breed take more killing than a puff-rifle has in it.
Bunny Huggers: This applies to feral cats only. Your precious little Fluffy Pie is safe with me.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 04:17:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
All,
I have been looking all over the place for Israeli combat boots. You know the type that looks like a pair of Keds that that are really comfy. Anyone know a source?
Cats again. When I was in the P.I. a village chieftain said they like the cats because they keep vermin down and when they need meat they got it right there. They seem to be pretty much self sufficient (the cats). The way I ate them over there was over fried rice with lumpia. Not bad, tastes a lot like rabbit. I know, we all have had a pet cat at one time or another but I guess it's like in India where cows are sacred. It's all depends on two things, where you are from and how hungry you are. Dog meat sucks.
Gun stuff.
I am doing some change ups in hand guns. I am now using a Glock 29 10mm compact. Very nice. I like the power and size combination. Now to the serious stuff. I am a true believer in Redding dies. Those babies are sweet! I am about to start developing some nice loads for the 300 Win mag. I will be using it in a Sendero. I am still partial to my .308 Win though. I guess since I spend more time on that gun than on any other I am just used to all it's particulars.
Has anyone tried the 178gr A-Max in the .308 win? If so, how was the accuracy? Is it better suited to the 300 Win? So far the best results have been with the 175gr SMK with 42.0gr of Varget, 1/2 MPA or less.

Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 04:39:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.191)
Jim(?) The "flur" you mentioned was probably FLIR,forward looking infra red,usually aircraft mounted.To me this type of gadget poses a greater threat to infantry in general and snipers in particular because as I uderstand it these things can see through damn near any camo we can devise especially in nonurban terrain.Like Ken said if the enemy has or looks to have miniguns or the like hooked up to sensors you would normally (hopefully) be able to call some hell from on high down on the bastards. However if they are using flir or the like they can see you and you cant see them, so they can set ambush or hell from on high on you.I did 4 years in the weekend warrior job and only ever heard of this mentioned in passing, no training,warning, nothing. Maybe the diggers are supposed to just hope the enemy electronics are like ours.f````ed.:-(
On a more cheerful note I ran some 75gr amax through the .223 yesterday,VERY promising. :)
Gavan Wills
Gavan Willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
winter is, comin to, occupied oz - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 06:26:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.87.27.188)
Bad Karma: Israeli combat boots
I have seen them, if we are talking bout the same thing at "The Mountain View" Surplus stores. There are 2 that I know of. One is on the border of San Jose and Campbell near the Pruneyard Shopping Center. The other is on El Camino Real in Mountain View California near Baskin Robbins. (In case you are local to that area.)
They are a light green with an odd sort of buckle or strap right?
Here are your contact points:
Mountain View Surplus.
1299 West El Camino Real Mountain View, CA tel: 650-969-2381
2045 S. Bascom Avenue Campbell, CA tel: 408-377-1362
Sorry I do not have any web address for them... but if you are looking for a website to go look at be sure to check out
Nor-Cal Precision.
Community service note: The last line was put in for the singular purpose of jestfully annoying Pablito and poking fun at one of his earlier posts.
Pablito - Buscar un gato mojado de una diversa clase para comer el nont para asesinar.
Charles of memorablePlaces.com <tenarius@MemorablePlaces.com>
CCCPalifornia, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 10:28:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 204.156.137.61)
Jeez...
Now I don't get no respect... in Spanish ;))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
For a good and true friend - "... next time, instead of getting married, I'll just meet a chick that I hate, and giver all my money!" in the, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 11:00:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.50)
The new FN Special Police Rifle being sold through Fulton Armory looks good for an "out of the box" rifle: http://www.fultonarmory.com/ . Opinions?
Tom
Tomac <tomac42@earthlink.net>
Caldwell, Idaho, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 12:02:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.209.78)
Hey all, any of you guys know anything about the "A & N MANUFACTURING ONE PIECE TACTICAL BASE" that brownells is selling? So far that is the only 1pc NON-ANGLE base that I have found. The pic of it looks simular to the Badger. Any comments are welcomed as usual.

Thanks,
John

John McGrath <jkmcgrath@scoutsniper.com>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 12:31:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)
Bad Karma: "Israeli Combat Boots" were $30 from the US Cavalry Store (www.uscav.com)in their 2000 Fall/Winter catalog. This is the khaki model Jeff Cooper sports around in for his classes in the desert.
John McGrath: What's the down-side to Badger's 20 moa taper?

Earl North <Kettlebelly@Hotmail.com>
KC, MO, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 16:07:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 163.185.237.247)
Earl.........
The Badger bases are excellent. My lupita Mark4 M3 only has 10moa down adjustment which prevented me from zeroing at 100yds. Some have been able to use the combo on thier rifles with no problems but I was unable to.
I removed the dial and everything to get ALL the down adjustment I could but it was not enough on my particular rifle/scope combo. Your mileage may very.
John
John McGrath <jkmcgrath@scoutsniper.com>
Springfield, Missouri, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 16:39:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.26.122.13)
I am interested in the riffle raffle, of course, of course, but I am still a FNG lurker, and I was wondering about "George" the rifle provider. Could someone turn me on to a URL of his webpage?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 17:08:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.17.93.48)
Steve (FNG Lurker)
Here is the website for GA Precision
http://www.dennysguns.com/denny/precision.html
Enjoy.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
va, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 17:18:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)
Just got back from a lovely trip to the mountains of NC to decompress and walk may ass off with my lovely wife of 30 years.
Noticed several requests for info on the sniper detection stuff and some back comments. There are several systems and they are not co located with the snipers but with really big auto guns in the 50 cal to 20 mm arena. Some are active and some are passive. The French used one system during Bosnia attached to a 20 mm and an APC. It used the sound waves to locate and adjust fire on the first shot. Yes, you can shoot and scoot. But be damned quick about it. :-) Most of the systems use a technique for locating the origin of a first shot, some do not and do not need the first shot. These are active and thus detectable. As another comforting thought, one system not only caught the round but the flying brass from three different shooters. How is that for crap does this job suck! =)
As far as decoys, there are several remote systems for firing a sniper weapon system with a goodly amount of stand off. These systems are marketed to the military, police and EOD units. They are effective as I have used one system to make three heads shots at 100 to 200 meters in the same time it took to do it with the weapon alone.
Lito - Right now these systems will not support the sniper team as to the size requirements. They usually are attached to an APC with a slaved BIG GUN to make you wish you had seen it first. Some are active and fill the air with all sorts of warning, however some are passive and use a multiple antenna array to detect and triangulate based on bullet crack. This too has limitations as the crack changes with range and weapon system. However, as you are well aware, a calibrated 7.62x54R will catch a 7.62 NATO at ranges within 500 meters. And that is the normal engagement ranges of a sniper with closer being the norm for urban. YOU DO WHAT WITH CATS? :-)
Tony - Yes that is one of the systems and I would not waste my life firing at the radar. Too small of a package and you have just given it a straight line to the shooter. Something it would love. If it is in the area, the target had better be real critical, as in CARVER. I train snipers to go and come back so that I can send them out again. I do not train wily ninjas to go out and commit suicide shooting and getting shot immediately. :-)
Ken - I agree with you, I loved the Missouri! Call in Naval fire since it is always easier to attack down a depression then up a hill.
Marius - Thank you, did not experience the threaded roster and am glad for it. I hate the other forums that are threaded. You find a lot of info in an off thread comment that you would have missed otherwise. I do agree with ‘Lito in that I would like to see a way to correct Opps when I get the intermediate submit page.
Hold hard guys and stay safe.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 18:58:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.104.43)
Ref: Countermeasures
I've read some about the SSK .50 caliber Whisper which uses the big A-Max bullet. It has a rainbow trajectory but in an urban setting this might be just the ticket to "come in under the radar" so to speak.
A number of teams engaging at the same time would force the system to pick one thus offering survival to the others, a kind of long range Russian Roulette.
It's getting hard to reach retirement age in the sniper business.
I'm sure glad I only do this as a hobby.
Out
Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad) <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 20:23:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Guys...... anyone out there have any comments on the Sako TRG-S rifle, I'm looking at one in .338LM. Also, does anybody make a Picitinny Rail scope mount base for this thing?
'lito..... the trick is to bypass the time-consuming foreplay and the unecessary paperwork! "Take her home, f**k her, and sign over your house".
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 21:34:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.79)
HOGS - LISTEN UP:
THE RIFLE RAFFLE IS ONLINE AND READY TO ENGAGE.
CLICK ON MY NAME BELOW OR PASTE THIS LINK INTO YOUR BROWER BAR:
http://www.aspiringtech.net/raffle/raffle.htm

Enjoy!

(running like hell for cover... )

Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
The Raffle is Hot , The Raffle is Hot, USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 22:42:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Ken , THE Hunter........one question on the riffle rafffle......
Are YOU the Pastor of your church???.......
HAH!!!!!!.......heheheehehe..(((;
Two "Laughing" Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 23:08:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.214)
All,
I have a question...I was touring the Berger site and saw that they offer a 37gr .17 caliber VLD. I am running a 1/10 twist and would like to know if it would stablize it? I love my little .17 Remington. My friends think it's cool to see the hole appear before the recoil. I do too.
Cheap practice,
I have been working on an experiment to deal with quiet indoor type shooting with my AR. Here's what I got so far and tell me what you think.
I am using a CCI small rifle magnum primer to launch a .22 caliber airgun pellet. It works OK. So, I used my primer pocket uniforming tool to cut the small rifle primer pocket to a large rifle primer pocket. I use a Federal 215 and wow! These really go. I am guessing at around 600 f/s. Of course you have to single load them,but it's nice to be able to work on the rifle without he noise nor the cost of ammo. This also works well because it doesn't have all that power that makes such a hazzard.
I am going to try the accuracy test next. I am using a 10m airgun target to do all my tests on. Once I have a consistant result I will clock them over my Pact 1.
Semper Fidelis my brothers.
Bad Karma.
Bad Karma <jwhiteii56@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 23:18:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.170.184.225)
Hey dude-skis...
On Monday night, MSNBC had a story on the "Deadly 50 cal "Sniper" rifles" ,and it was a very negitive slam (you guessed??)...
Now they have a sight with much of the major text of the story (the "highlights").
Go here:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/568339.asp
at the botom of the page there is a chance to vote on the story... 1 through 7, AND a link to a "part two" of the story on another page, with a chance to vote on that one too...
ALL youz sniper bumz, and lurkers out there... go to the site, read the text, and vote on both of those POS stories.
It's 50 cal sniper rifles now, 30 cal sniper rifles next...
Remember the "assualt rifle" ban!!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 16, 2001 at 23:52:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.64)
MSNBC's Unbiased Reporting - My initial impressions -
They seemed to have a woody for Bob Stewart of Maadi-Griffin, who was
busted by the ATF for being a felon in possession of a firearm.
The main thrust they seemed to be making was the "connection" between
Stewart and a couple of Michigan militia groups, especially since
they admitted to the terrible sin of actually owning some of his 50
BMG guns.
There wasn't one mention of the constitutionality of gun ownership or
any counterpoints from any reps of the NRA, GOA, JPFO, etc. True
unbiased reporting, huh?
The real clincher was that asshole congressman (senator?) Henry
Waxman who came out and said that no one "needs" a 50 cal weapon and
if it was up to him no one would be allowed to own one.
Hey, cockbreath, since when is a Constitutional right based on
"need?" All our Constitutional rights predate the Constitution and
are God-given. All the Constitution does is reemphasize them.
As far as the "undeclared" war that they harped on, WAKE UP YOU
ASSHOLES, YOU declared war on the CITIZENRY in 1934 with the NFA, in
1968 with the GCA, in 1994 with the "Assault Weapons Act" and who
knows how many other blatantly UNconstitutional infringements.
Sounds to me like there are a lot of scared politicians and JBTs out
there who can't tolerate the immense firepower in the hands of the
CITIZENRY!
When the time comes to choose sides, and it already has, remember
that "they" are not our brethren. "They" are the enemy who have
disregarded their oaths to defend the Constitution and have turned
their backs on it - and us.
"After the first one, the rest are free." Henry Bowman
Non-Gun Related Political Rant Mode Off.
On to the poll!
Moe

Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 00:08:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.186)
It should be, We do not "NEED" Waxman, and nobody should be subjected to him.
Now buy some tickets, they need 200 so I can get my rif.....I mean, a ......Just buy so tickets would yah!
jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 00:30:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
Bad Karma,
Best be careful on the "Indoor", shooting...the hazard lies WITH the Primer..........
This is the greatest source of lead that can be ingested, via nose, mouth, breathing etc.( short of eating it).
This of course applies to only the primers using lead stypnate as a base.
Which, last I checked was MOST.
So, Caveat Emptor!!!!!!!!!
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 00:38:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.102.153)
MOE...AGREED!!! 100% RIGHT ON!!!
Off topic mode off...back to trying to learn Front Page and get my stupid website up....Marius, I do not envy you.....
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 01:02:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.51.96)
Whoops...forgot. I would appreciate if any Savage 110FP shooters would email me some good shooting .308 loads to add to my data file. I cut and pasted everything I could find, but I am hopelessly falling into the load experiment trap :>)....Thanks and much appreciation.
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 01:05:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.51.96)
test
ken testing <markwell@hardynet.com>
testing, test, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 01:27:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Paul, thanks for the URL for the rifles.
Damn, that is an awful pretty rifle. When I clicked on the riffle raffle thingy, I saw I was visitor numer 202, and started sweating bird-turds, thinking y'all had already bought all the tickets, but I got one!
*Does his spike the football in the end-zone touchdown happy dance*
Thanks for being patient to a FNG, y'all.
Steve
P.S. - I am still trying to find those mall ninja boots that let ya walk on walls . . .
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 01:34:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.31.15.140)
Man o man ain't my, woops sorry, ain't the GG riffle perty? Thinking of naming her "Woolite" in honor of all the little sheepies out there. Ordered my riffle raffle tickets, how about you guys?
An aroused Bolt, out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 01:44:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.236)
There are great quotes in history that we all have heard... many associated with the orgin of out nation... like "Give me liberty, or give me death"... "I regret that I only have one life to give for my country"... and the many others that made us proud, even as children.
We have all been taught the fine speeches of the founding fathers, and have read (and seen movies) of the efforts to fight off the supressive governments of the world, like Nazi Germany, or Hiro Hito's Japan, to enslave free peoples... and we have all seen the seemingless thousands of movies of Americans fighting (WITH weapons) for the freedom, and rights of the early history of this nation, and of nations all over the world. And we, as individuals, and as a nation, have been prowd of these men, and proud of their efforts, and their sacrafices.
Our military cemeteries are filled with the young men that died... fighting WITH weapons, for the constitutional rights we have, and to extend those same rights to others.
We know of Hitler's total gun registration in 1935, and his total gun confiscation in years that followed.
We know of the single Jewish man, that kept the Germans out of the Warsaw Gheto for SIX WEEKS, with a single handgun... sniping in a hit and run fashion.
With all these proud speeches, and quotations about freedom, and the price paid for it in blood and tears, for over 200 years...
... Here's one quote that I want you to BURN INTO YOUR MEMORY... F-O-R-E-V-E-R... NEVER, EVER, FORGET IT!! EVER, EVER... !!!
Rep. Waxman:
“If someone is so fearful that, that they’re going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that these people have these weapons at all!”
And here's one other...
"Never give up... Never ever, ever give up"
...Sir Winston Churchill
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 01:53:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.64)
Lito'.........glad to see, and smell the fire burning deep within your breast......
If only the majority of the Sheeple felt the same way.....
I think that is ONE of the reasons this board has become a harbor of refuge for me, and so many others.
Moe, thanks, and lets ALL keep our eyes on the prize...........
It's called AMERICA..............it belongs to US, and OUR children....
Lets make sure we get to pass it on.
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 02:37:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.49)
Lito'.........glad to see, and smell the fire burning deep within your breast......
If only the majority of the Sheeple felt the same way.....
I think that is ONE of the reasons this board has become a harbor of refuge for me, and so many others.
Moe, thanks, and lets ALL keep our eyes on the prize...........
It's called AMERICA..............it belongs to US, and OUR children....
Lets make sure we get to pass it on.
Two Shoes
Terry <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 02:42:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.49)
Love this site. I agree with Moe. When I joined the Army I took an oath to uphold & defend the Constitution. Most (I hope all) soldiers feel & believe the same thing. I come from SD. Sen Tom Daschle who is a democrat and is a big wig in Washington wants to introduce more gun laws. SD is first of all a Republican state. Its a very large hunting state. Guns are a way of life up here. I was shocked to find out that a South Dakota Congressman was trying to take away more of our guns rights. I have a feeling he will be voted out of office the next election. The right to bear arms is just that, our right. I will proudly continue to defend that right & all others as a member of the military.

Spc Lammon <wlammon@nvc.net>
Aberdeen, SD, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 02:52:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.68.174.195)
I do have a question that I hope someone out there can help me with. I have a 1903 '06 Springfield. It's a great gun but it isn't gruoping as tight as I'd like. It will group okay at 800m but not as tight as I'd like. I have gotten the trigger pull down to about 3.5 lbs. Any advice would be great. I'm able to get all head shots at 300m with the M16A2 with iron sights. What am I doing wrong with my scoped '03? Most of the shots hit my target (8x10 paper). Thanks for the help.
Spc W. Lammon <wlammon@nvc.net>
Aberdeen, SD, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 02:59:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.68.174.195)
IMI BRASS - .223 SS-109 Headstamp Loading...
Hey guys,
I was wondering if anybody out there had any previous experience with the SS-109 .223 IMI Brass. I ordered 100 cases through Widener's, and just loaded my first batch of 20 yesterday.
First thoughts - the cases seem pretty thick. Just a visual comparison between the IMI and Lake City 1999 .223, showed a slightly thicker neck. Also, the inside mouth of the cases looked trimmed with no camfer, didn't notice that until I'd shaved a little jacket off my first few bullets. A few of the case mouths were slightly dented, but that was easy enough to fix.
I used 21.5 grains of H4895, just to be on the safe side. Bullets are 52gr Sierra Matchking, and Federal primers.
I'll see how that shoots this weekend... but...
Does anyone else out there have any tips on loading this brass? Am I just being paranoid about the case wall thickness? Any word on reliability and performance? Personal load recipies?
Thanks,
-JD
Jeremy Dombroski <R13@austin.rr.com>
Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:01:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.68.191.53)
Gents,
CDC: My 16 pound tomcat is all cat, but not feral. I don't worry at all about him. He can take care of himself. On the other hand anyone who would deliberately hurt me or mine gets to suffer my wrath. To date no one in the area had sought to "gore the bull"...;-)
Heavy Rifles: I draw the line at 16 pounds. For extended ops I might even go a bit lighter. Depends on what I give up. Same for "canoe paddle stocks". A man has to draw the line somehwhere. The propensity of prone style stocks amazes me. BOTH my serious rifles sport McMillan GP's with dark woodland camo...they shoot superbly from the prone when needed and still carry and feel like a real rifle.
Simple truth is that, at 50, I no longer want to carry the loads I did as a young buck. Guess that's what I get for no longer maxing the PFT!
Slings: Turner Saddlery for leather and Tactical Intervention for heavy duty nylon that is well designed.
My opinions are unsolicited and worth what you paid for them...
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:06:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.61)
SHHHHEEEEEIIIITTTTT!!!!! man you hogs are alright....
We will chew thru or hit 200 tix by tomorrow Im sure...
I will shut down the registry when we hit 200.. now the actual count might be 210, etc... whatever is in the queue when I close the door...
thanks for all youn'z support!
Ken :)
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
working my butt off, keeping up with the registry, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:10:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Yeeeeeee-ha! Got my tickets...and none too soon, either! Better pony up in a hurry, gents. They's a-goin' fast!
Roger C. <madeditor75@hotmail.com>
Crossin' my finger and toes in Austin, TX, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:11:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.27.35.52)
Howdy, boys. Just a quick note (am out again tomorrow).
Won a Bronze in the Atlantic Fleet Excellence-in-Competition Rifle Match (no joy in the All-Navy). Issued ammo was Lake City 98 7.62 M118LR Lot D and 5.56 Match. Here's the 5.56 box labelling:
"50 Cartridges
Cal 5.56mm Special Match
MK 262 MOD 0
LOT# BLH00E002-001
1305-01-474-3856/AA50
CONTRACT# N00164-00-M-0502
Manufactured by Black Hills Ammunition
77 GR. BTHP"
Now, before you get all frothy that it's good stuff, here's what I noted:
It's smoky. It's loaded pretty anemic (clocked at 2650 fps, 100 fps slower than the Navy's wind data charts says it's supposed to go), but holds elevation well. Fair to good accuracy (a number of 480 scores fired), but a number of bullets got pushed back into the cases. You can definitely hear the powder in the cases when you shake 'em (canister Western Powder, now sold commercially as TAC). Doesn't seem as consistent as HSM ammo. Definitely not as consistent as my own handloads.
Most notable is the NSN and DODIC number if you want to try and get hold of it thru NSWC Crane (I was told by the Black Hills President they sent 60,000 rounds to the Navy for the Fleet matches, the All-Navy, Inter-Service, and Perry. For sale for around $500 per thousand rounds).
Kettle Belly, sorry -- never worked with the Swarovski ZF-M, though Torsten, Torf, Hexa, or Stefan in Holland may have.

Sinister Dave <mliwanag@nc.rr.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 66.26.18.206)
Duman, you are in my neck of the prarie. Your e-mail is @hp.com, but have you looked into operating a range? Just curious, as I have thought about it quite a bit. The new indoor down Sante Fe is doing well.
Hank <Hank@vocallect.com>
Highlands Ranch, CO, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:19:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 65.7.134.51)
Guys,
Went to find the msnbc article, and ran across this one... give it a read....

http://www.msnbc.com/news/573179.asp

-L

Leslie <lnbright@naxs.net>
TN-VA, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:36:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.98.82.118)
This is a question for any Remington experts out there. So I recently gave in and picked up a cliche Rem 700 VS in .308. Great rifle. I've had lots of fun with it.
I've put just a little over 200 rounds through it, but I recently noticed something I'm unsure of. Essentially, it seems that the barrel isn't flush up against the stock at the front-most end of the stock. That is to say, if I hold the rifle upside down (ie, trigger pointing up) and grab the stock and barrel at the end and give it a squeeze, there's a _tiny_ bit of play there. We're talking < 1 mm, but enough to give a noticeble "thunk". I didn't notice this when I bought the gun, but that doesn't mean much - I wasn't looking for it.
I'm _assuming_ this is just the way the gun is (free floating barrel?), but I'm not enough of a techie to actually know. So what's the deal, boys? Defect? Or to be expected?
Thanks for the help.
Dave B <daveb196@home.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:46:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.253.76)
"So what's the deal, boys? Defect? Or to be expected?"
Big defect. yep thats it. I have a way with these things though, and don't mine the project. So how bout I trade you an Enfield for it. Lots of nice solid barrel contact there.
Kidding you where right on the free floating part.
Jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 03:59:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
'lito - emporium - ROTFLMAO
Kevin of the GWN <bolandks@home.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 04:24:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.71.223.141)
Tomac: RE: FN Special Police Rifle. There's a review of this rifle in "Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement" magazine, July, 2001. The author claims a 5-pound trigger, mine is 7. He is absolutely giddy about how well the detachable magazine works, mine is a real POS!! It has been worked on by local rep to no avail. I have spares ordered to see if it's a mag problem or something else. The manufacturer hasn't released mags to distributor yet, I'm supposedly first on the list when they get there. Then we'll see. So in the meantime it's a single shot rifle, it won't load the last round from the mag. The spring setup is two coiled springs, kinda like a watch. There's one to the rear and a narrower (weaker) one in front. In this particular example, they just don't work together like they should and the front end of the follower lags behind and doesn't feed the round under the extractor. I will say, however, it's accurate with 175, 168 and 155 SMK's. Best groups, so far, are with Federal GM308M2, and handloads with 155 SMK Palma's in Winchester brass and IMR 4064. Worst groups are with a box of Winchester SuperX with 150 gr. Power Points from Wally World. That fireformed brass, fully preped, is now loaded with Palmas and headed to the range tomorrow.
Got my two Rifle Raffle tickets reserved. I am a realist, but it sure would be fun to drive over to KC and visit with George in person. All together now: "Dream alooonng with meee...."
PaulS <kpszopa@aol.com>
Columbia, MO, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 04:35:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.206)
MSNBC STORY...... I just went to the site that 'lito provided for this .50 cal Militia story. After reading their bullshit I proceded to cast my vote on it. I gave it a 1 out of a possible 7. A screen came up and notified me that my vote wouldn't be counted because the "cookies" on my computer were not enabled! So it seems that they only want your opinion if you allow them to envade your privacy. I should have known!
JUST MY OPINION.... Those guys with the 50's should never consented to any type of interview. They should not have even answered one question. All that they accomplished is that they gave the liberal media stooges enough material to make them look bad. They can't broadcast a story without participants. They baited these people into making fools of themselves, and they were perfect foils for self-righteous Waxman and his guardian of the people act. I'm anticipating someone saying that these people have a right to say and do whatever they want, etc., etc. Please prove me wrong!
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 04:52:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.163)
Alan,
Regarding voting on MSNBC and "cookies". Easy way to get around that. Enable the cookies, do the vote, disable cookies, and clean out the cookies directory again. There, your vote casted using cookies, and cookies gone again.
Cookies are not all evil, and are the same as guns. They are there, and can be used to very good effect. The fact that some people use them for their own bad purposes doesn't make cookies bad. Like guns, they cannot do anything by themselves!!

Guns are not evil, people using guns for evil purposes are evil.

Now, in the above, replace "guns" with "cookies" and read it out to yourself again. Then think of your arguments against cookies, think about the media's arguments about guns...
Not picking on you, just making a point. We use the exact same arguments against things we dislike as people use against us and the thing we like. And we scream and shout at them (figuratively) for doing it...
Getting back to the MSNBC voting - probably they are using the cookies for "per session" cookies. Is it an ASP site? (...../docname.ASP, instead of ..../docname.HTML like the Duty Roster) These cookies are not "bad", and cannot be used for bad intent, as they are not stored on your hard drive afterwards like normal persistent cookies are. They are merely variables used as vehicles to convey information from one page to another in the same site and process.
Funny what one suddenly know and understand when learning about it!
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 08:23:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
I've just registered for the winning tickets...and in the spirit of giving I'd also like to make a "donation" to Ken's church...before the drawing of course...
Good luck all....

Jim <kastner@sprynet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 09:04:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.86.207.97)
Ken,
would you please send my "Rock" to ´lito, I guess as a foreigner I dont pass the background check and I am sure he´ll take good care of it.
t
PS
Earl, I am on your scope info, hang in there !
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 09:06:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.156.8.59)
Hogs:
We're chewing thru raffle tix pretty fast...

Also -
Kevin Swanson of U.S. Tactical Supply has donated a Hydration Pack as one of the secondary prizes... so we will pull a 6th ticket for that prize too...

Thanks Kevin & US Tactical supply!
Ken :)
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 11:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
PaulS, thanks for the info. Any idea how much they'll be asking for extra mags for the FN SPR? What sort of groups are you getting so far? In the article they mention that the trigger is fully adjustable so do you think you can lower the pull weight while still retaining the crispness? How's overall finish & quality? Thx!...
Tom
Tomac <tomac42@earthlink.net>
Caldwell, Idaho, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 11:56:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.24.12.173)
DaveB -
Sounds like you need to re-torque the action bolts. Back them out a little and torque to 65 in/lbs.
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 12:18:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.49)
Gents,
I look away for a few hours and Daaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmnnnn!!!! 154 tickets sold. That's ok though, I got 155 and 156. Good luck to all.
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
Looking at pics of the "Rock and sporting wood in, No-Va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 12:38:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)
I haven't updated the page - but: 186.... will be closing soon..
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 13:06:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)
Morning Hogs..
I just signed up for my dontation for the rifle. I am so damn unlucky in drawings, if there was one ticket I wouldn't win!!! Our gun club drew for a couple of guns every year at the end of our shoots and for nearly 8 years I would go home with a cap if I was lucky!! Same guys always won them.
Just got and e.mail from Dave Lauck at D&L, he said the big shoot in Wyoming this year will be televised by ESPN. Hope it will be a positive coverage.
Sounds like he's changing some things to make it easier on the shooters, trying to get more people to come. He will break it into civilian and military & LE. Don't know yet if the courses would be the same. Military wanted it to stay like it was (Ball Buster) and a lot of civilians wanted it less physical. Not sure what the changes will be. He likes to surprise everyone(HA)
Dave runs a top notch operation with great range officers and you get a lot of long range shooting under a lot of different conditions, its a great shoot with some really great people. If you can make it be there you won't be sorry.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 13:36:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
CEASE FIRE - CEASE FIRE -UNLOAD CLEAR AND LOCK....

The raffle is closed... we ended up with about 205 or so tickets....
Okay hawgs... check the site and get yer $$ on the way...
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
whew!, va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 14:37:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)
Damn, Man...
That's the fastest raffle I ever saw.
I guess it says something about the Wascally George Gardner's riffles... they ROCK!~ ;)
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 14:55:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.17)
Say can we have another riffle raffel ?

Wade in the wood's
Wade Knape <slimey_limey1960@yahoo.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 15:07:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.187.52.29)
Hogs:
those that registered this morning will get their responses and ticket numbers this afternoon'ish...
I took eyeball counts of the ticket mails that came in - that's how I determined when to shut down the ticket sales....
We will try to have one of these - say - quarterly - or something like that... We don't want to saturate the area - and don't want to crowd out anyone else that wants to have a raffle...
Ken :)
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
workin it, va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 15:16:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)
Bad Karma;
The twist needed for the 37 gr. Bergers is a 1 in 6" twist.
Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 15:23:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.81.86.178)
Ken,
For the checks/money orders: Mail to and payable to, the same??
Aspiring Technologies??
Thanks
Semper Fi
Paul <paulcockerham@att.net>
VA, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 15:45:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.173.17.78)
Geez!! I missed a couple days and nearly missed out on the Raffle!!! I'd hate to see youz guys at a buffet...'specially if Kitty Chow Mein was on the table :)
'Lito- how long did you bake your Brownells Teflon Moly? I bead blasted my AR receiver, degreased with Gunscrubber, sprayed and next day/baked at 300 F for 1 hr- after it cooled I dropped it about 12"(no not on purpose!) on the stove top... 4 shiny aluminum places showing now :( Off to build a shrine in front of the gunsafe for the NEXT Gardner rifle!
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 16:16:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.71)
Paul - others:
Yes - checks payable to: Aspiring Technologies, Rifle Raffle.
http://www.aspiringtech.net/raffle/rules.htm
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 16:29:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.35)
Bill Moore...
I think I did it for an hour or so.
Remember, it's NOT indestructable... just very good... even Bluing, or powdercoat will ding if you drop it.
Good side, you can take a tooth pick and touch it up... heat the place up with a hair dryer.
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 16:42:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.66)
Morning,
I was wondering does anyone out there know how many minutes I'll have to come up from my 600 yds zero to get me on target at 1,000 yds? I shoot an AR with 75gr boolits about 2600fps may be faster or slower never crono'ed them yet. I shoot High Power and wanted to see how the AR would do at an even Grand.
Ken, never got my riffle raffle ticket number. Do I send the fun tickets any way or wait for a response. I should have been around #10 or so...Of course I coulda screwed the pooch an did something wrong. That wouldn't be a first.
Cat, its what fer dinner.
Carry On.
Steve
Steve <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, Tx, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 16:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.96.143.158)
Does anyone out there have any field experience with the three day plus rucksack from Tactical Tailor Co. If so please drop me a line.
Thanks
David <sog1zero@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 19:16:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.186)
Damn,...You guys hold a raffle like Patton fought a tank battle. Don't blink or you'll miss it.
CDC' <criscurt@isu.edu>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 19:19:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.50.253.13)
MARTIAL ARTS HELP?
Anyone on site good with this stuff? I have done TKD for about 2 years, switched to Kenpo/Judo for a short while and ran out of money.
I am starting up again and considering other styles. Been looking at Brazilian JuJitsu.
Anyone who could help out, please email me.
Sorry for the off topic post everyone (OK, not really, but at least I was polite about it!)
Thanks
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
Colombia - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 21:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Martial Arts:
Ninja Moe, and Ninja PeteR ... please step forward.... and answer this dude's question...

Hogs: Raffle, I watched the count from work and shut down the registry as soon as the count hit 200. Now.. there were probably a few tix in the queue... so the actual sold count might be along the lines of 208, somewhere in there...
Those of you that didn't receive your ticket numbers... hang tuff... as sooon as I take care of the farm... I will get right on it....
Ken ;)
Ken Hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 22:02:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
That would have to be some sort of record wouldnt it, the fastest damn raffle ever.Well I wont have to do battle with the customs gestapo to get my rock :( coulda donated it to bravo I spose,wean him off those damn gas guns :)
GW out
GAVAN willis <gwillis@simplex.net.au>
gettin colder , downunder, in occupied oz - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 23:14:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.87.27.133)
Comment from Mister Waxman stored in memory.
Thanks 'Lito. Great comments.
Whatta "public servant" and by the way MISTER Waxman, great job protecting the letter and principles of the Constitution! Gotta move on before I get any more pissy.
Good to hear from you Bravo!
Congrats on the Bronze Sinister Dave.
Got my ticket!!! Check will be out in the morning mail.
'Lito...another ROFLMAO!!!!! Ever get an answer on the "package deal"? LMAO some MORE!!:>)
Geoff M <kill@internetwis.com>
USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 23:31:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.207.51.173)
Ken:
How do the numbers get radomly drawn. 208 small slips of paper in a hat? Just wonderin.
Marius:
Damn what are you doing in Africa, come over here and we'll give you a great big soap box, and rap you up in the American Flag.
Question: ???
How does one pratice movers with out the benifit of haveing them at your range. I could make something up have lots of ideas, but not very practical to move some big setup to desert all the time.
OK real question where do YOU practice movers, or do you?
That does not count cats runnig across the yard 'lito.

Jim <azgeneral1@aol.com>
AZ., USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 23:51:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.177.79.18)
Kudos to 'lito!
Well, today I tried out my new and improved "unlawyered" Remy 700 with the three pound trigger pull. Wow! What a difference. Nice, clean and crisp. No more pulled shots. And my groups have tightened up by 1/2 to 3/4 inches.
If anybody out there has a box stock Remy, you owe it to yourself to re-set that trigger. Cost is minimal - torque wrench (which can be used for lots of other stuff) and red nail polish (which can be used for lots of other stuff :-)).
Question - I also switched over to the 175gr FGMM. Besides the obvious, are there any other differences between this and the 168 gr? Maybe it was just me but the 175 seemed a bit hotter. Are they loaded differently?
Hey 'lito, how's Fred? LMAO!
Moe
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Thursday, May 17, 2001 at 23:56:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.68)
Drawing: here's how it will proceed. I will take 208 pieces of paper - each with a raffle number on it. Toss them into some kind of smooth sided container. I will have my pastor come over and draw out 6 tix and write the drawing order on each ticket, 1st, 2nd, etc...
There ya go - then the number is simply matched to the owner in the raffle registry.
I'm only the raffle operator...
Ken :)
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
working them tix, va, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 00:23:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
NINJA MOE??!!
I don't think my sensei would agree with that!
Jefe, if you want to try a style that is somewhat similar to kenpo, try Okinawan Uechi Ryu karate. It's not on every street corner, like TKD, or even in every state for that matter!
It's very no-nonsense oriented. Minimal kicking techniques and a good assortment of hand techniques - all applied in a rather viscious, close-in style. Kicks are kept low to unbalance the opponent and hand techniques are applied to the softer, vulnerable areas of the upper torso.
If you ever get back to Vermont, New England is a hot-bed for Uechi Ryu. I know there are instructors in S. America also. You might want to try going to
http://www.uechi-ryu.com
This is THE Uechi Ryu website and there is an instructors listing also. Good luck!
Moe (the non-Ninja)
Sandan, Shidoin
Uechi Ryu Karate-Jutsu
Moe Mensale <mjmensale@aol.com>
Boca Raton, FL, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 00:30:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.68)
I finely figured out how to use ftp (for the moment)...
Go here:
http://people.mags.net/condor/guns/Waxman_Trator.jpg
Save that image to your hard drive files, then attach it to EVERY e-mail you send, and send it to everyone you know...
It says it all about where the liberals want to take us...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 00:40:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.191.22.13)
Do we go ahead and send the money for the riffle-raffle ticket now, or wait on the email like the destructions told us?
. o 0 (instructions . . .destructions . . sounds the same, right?)
Later,
Steve
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:07:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.248.50)
Hogs: Raffle Stats... whew!... finally got all the responses generated... total tix sold was 210.
Payments via paypal are starting to come in....lots of folks notifying me of a check en route...
Man - all you hawgs are somethin' else... you all keep up this good comraderee...
We will have some freebee type drawings where the prize given away is purchased with some of the residual $$ from this raffle.
We will try to do another raffle next quarter, say - mid july...
thanks,
Ken :)

ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:10:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
OK, whats the problem ?? Would someone from staff email me ?? Could not contact Marius or Ken. Yep, I have a problem but would prefer to discuss off Roster.
Standing by,
Will <Rogue308@mindspring.com>
Really PO'd, state of agitation, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:13:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 165.121.232.4)
testing anuther hog's account...
ken testing <jcolsen@netzero.net>
testing, testing, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)
Hey Hogs..
Out of the loop a while due to Spring chores and being to dumb to remember password..WTF? Right!
Bravo..Sorry to hear of your tribulations; hope things are comming along OK.
CDC...LBT bullets for guide gun should be ready from Cast Performance in a couple more weeks..Product # is 458/405 LFNGC..$22/100 + frt.
Ken Hunter...Been hunting BIG varmints the past week..Neighbor has had 11 sheep/lambs killed by a bear or bears. All the local boys with dogs mobilized but no luck yet..Coyotes killed on another farm near here last night..Lots to do; little time..
Pablito...When asked what my AWC 10/22 sounds like the reply is ussually....Thunk..YYYEEEEEEOOOOOWWWW!!!!!!
The 77CR/223 has now lived in the truck for about a month and has a liberal coating of dust and dog hair. Benched it the other day again with my bulk handloads and it consistantly shoots just a CH over 1/2".Haven't chrono'd it yet, but my guess is the 16" bbl is giving me something in the 2900 fps range. Thought you closet RRRuger fans migh be interested..
Talked to Rod Ryan the other day and he has scrapped his KD range and is turning the butts into a facade[sp?] like a building/town..Should be ready by match time..No details.

Gotta get up and chase the bear again in the AM so I'm..

outa here

Markwell <markwell@hardynet.com>
Kitten katchetory central in the Alleghenies, WV, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:25:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.181.149.20)
Will...
Just e-mail Ken at:
hunterkr@riflemen.net
He and I chat all the time, and he's good about answering his mail.
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:25:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.114)
MOE:
Thanks for the heads up. I don't have to be able to spell that before being accepted as a student I hope! Seriosly tho, thanks again.
COUNTER SNIPER OPERATIONS:
Anyone who has done these, please give me some feedback on my list of steps (the FM is pretty short on advice):
1. Brief unit on countermeasures; no saluting, insignia, patterns
etc., so they can immediately disseminate to the troops.
Ensure that all units conduct refresher training on react to
sniper drills at least verbally with briefbacks.
2. Get situation brief form the S-2, consider enemy task/org since
it could be more than one team.
Get info on all incidents based on the 5W's at a minimum.
Analyze for patterns, tactics, etc.
3. Organize countersniper assets within the unit. Fire support,
STANO devices and surveillance plans, reaction forces to provide
blocking/search forces.
Give refresher training on all STANO devices and observation
and reporting techniques. Provide specific information
requirements for a sniping incident, to include the crack/bang
method, analysis of round impact/trajectory etc.
Also train the troops on target indicators. Request additional
STANO gear if possible.
4. Based on the senior snipers terrain analysis and situation
estimate, identify likely FFPs as Named Areas of Interest and
incorporate into the units fire plan.
Locate positions from within the camp to emplace sniper teams
who can cover the most critical NAIs and which provide OPSEC.
5. Stress patience and wait. Reduce tension thru training and
making the troops work on training/employing countermeasures.
Try to bait the enemy sniper with tricks like "Smokin'Joe"
6. On contact, alert all units with a short to the point report and
have all elements with observation capacitys stand to and focus
on areas that have target indicators, and the other NAIs if
possible.
7. If able to ID and engage the enemy sniper, deploy a blocking force
to deter his escape if he's not injured. METT-T dependant,
commence saturation patrols of the area with fire teams or send in
another sniper team.
Obviously, hasty sectors of responsiblity need to be issued and
can be tentatively identified after naming the NAI's
8. MEDEVACs get alerted as soon as the chase begins.

Thats about all I can think of guys. Who can help me out here? I know it would be great to have dog teams and all kinds of stuff like that, but I am trying to base this on what could be done for a typical base camp.
You'd think they might actually put this stuff in the manual or something, but I can't seem to find much on it.
Thanks all.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
SA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 01:32:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Thanks for that info, Ken.
I will put the check in the mail in the morning.
I know that riffle will look really good in my gun case. . .
Later,
Steve
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 02:02:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.25.248.50)
Hogs and Hogettes,
Custom turrets for MK4 M3 and M3 LR's...
Leupold referred me to Kenton Industries for custom turrets. They have a turret for .308 175 Fed Match at 2,600 fps @7000 ft, 60 Temp., 100-1000 yds. Price is $50. Tardage increments are displayed every 2 MOA. Phone is 805 531-1018 (Moorpark, CA.
They told me they will calibrate for your load at your altitude, temp, barometric pressure, etc.
Scubashooter
scubashooter <jcolsen@netzero.net>
Richmond, VA, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 02:31:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.71.57)
Dam 'Lito, I should not of looked up Fred's background. I was a bad boy and posted on the Emporium with non-selling stuff. =)
Jefe - One thng for now, METT-T is now METT-TP. The P is for populace and in the Counter role they are very imortant for info just through observation. Have your OPs and patrols report everything that the population is doing regardless of how trivial. Snipers will hole up for a while but need resupply. The best urban camy is civies. Watch movement and activites, they can give indicators (LEA types call them clues, sorry couldn't resist) of potential hide sites. Have indirect fire support ready to cover and blanket areas, and make sure your hot rods DO NOT attempt to fire and manuver onto a sniper. Unless of course you have excess bod bags that you need to use up. You are right about the lack of formal manual write ups on the subject and I have been attempting to cure that problem with one of our manuals. I would also use extensive passive IR/thermal imagery to look for "out of place" hot spots.
Bravo - Must be getting blind and missed your problems. Hope all is getting squared away and back on track.
Jim - Movers are usually practiced on a KD range with butts. this allows a 9 inch wide target to be nailed to a 12 foot stick and walked/ran/whatever behind the butts. You can also rig a pull one a long length of cable suspended between two poles. But that can become ungainly under alot of conditions.
Well back to decompressing and letting the world go by for now. Hold hard guys and stay safe.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 03:28:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.64)
Hey y'all,
Any clues to where I could find a listing of any long-range rifle ranges within driving distance of SE Kentucky? I've got too many hills and trees to do any kind of distance shooting.
My check number for the riffle raffle was "308". I am feeling really lucky....
Later,
Steve
Steve <stephen_g_davis@hotmail.com>
London, KY, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 04:28:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.31.15.67)
As to the sniper detection systems, I'm glad that the peckerwoods we deal with in the city don't have access to that scary stuff. Most of them have trouble dealing with anything more high-tech than a cell phone, and the extent of their ordnance runs from .25 autos to whatever SKS they managed to steal. Besides, for the military types, how many other countries have the scratch to field Phalanx-type in-depth counter sniper systems? 'Lito, ever seen what a 69 gr hpbtm @ 3100 fps does to a cat? Break out the Kingsford and skewers, 'cuz dat's all you need!
Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 04:33:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.12.105.167)
Jeez, you snooze you lose!! I wasn't able to go on the net Wednesday evening and I missed the raffle completely. Being out here on the "Left Coast" probably didn't help matters either.
My wife bought me the Lupita Mk4 M3 for my birthday. She scored a brand spankin new one for $875. What a gal.
Wes, do you do any of the Sniper matches up here?
Tim
Gizmo <ssn581@teleport.com>
Beavercreek, OR, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 04:36:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.26.61.194)
Rick-ster...
Listen Dude-ski... that John gotta be the real thing... I mean he's all over the place, whackin' BG's and all that kewl stuff that snipers do... he's even gonna take care of "Bubba billy's" problems with the ugly witch from the north... (North westchester, that is ;)...
He wouldn't lie... ya' think?
;)))
Wadda' jerk!!

I'm "Totally Bummed out"... been putting equipment up on ebay, from a motion picture company I used to have... probably get 5 cents on the dollar for studio Arriflexs... double bummer.
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 05:49:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.132)
Ken, got the ticket Numbers, will send check via snail mail monyona.
Bad Karma, Was giving some thought to your indoor AR training thingy. Bill Jordan said in his book, "No second place winner." that when he shot wax boolits from his disolvers he would enlarge the flash hole. Be sure never to use the case for a regular power load or bad juju would result. This idea may help get more vel. Also was thinking you could fill the case with epoxy then ream the pocket to take a large primer and then enlarge the flash hole. You would also have to drill the epoxy from he case mouth to seat the pill as well. This would ensure the case us never used for a full power load and also direct more of the gas to the base of the pellet instead of wasting some of it swirling around in the case. These are untried thoughts of mine and should be regarded as such.
Bravo, can your lawyer ensure your wife wont sell your guns? You should be able to go back to your home if you were asked to leave and get them. Door locks can't stop your as it is your residence, so your not commiting a crime. Before kicking in the door you can contact the local PD to come stand by while you do this to ensure false allegations are not made. Or if she absconded with them see if you can get your lawyer to get a writ of attachment or some such legal thingy to prevent her from selling them. I don't mean to air your laundry on the site but this type of info may benifit others.
Anyone know the best way to get the big kitty eating my Mouflon Sheep? Lost 6 this year. Found only two carcasses. Lito, you busy?
Thinking of using leg hold traps but they are getting tough to find. I'd send my dogs but they only kill porcipines(ouch) and turn my quail loose. Darn bird dogs.
Shot out.
Steve
Steve <Ginger@devtex.net>
San Antonio, TX, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 05:51:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.96.143.136)
Pablito,
"Fred is "on assignment" in Jo'Berg, S.A. for the CIA..." HEY, WHO'S MUSCLING ON MY TURF!?!?!? Just let me get hold of him, and they won't like what they're getting back!
Oh yes, btw, it is Jo'Burg, as in Johannesburg, as in the "Johannes's place of residence", "burg" meaning more of a strengthened home, but not really to the extent of a castle. On the other hand "berg" is mountain, as in Drakensberg, or "Mountain of the Dragon", after the jagged edges looking like the back of a sleeping dragon.

Steve,
regarding where to find ranges. On the Hot Links page there's a link to a site called "Where to Shoot" or something like that. Have you tried them yet?
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 10:46:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
'Lito,
I forgot. It is not 'Lito anymore, but "Yena obulala ebusuku" :-)
Marius
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 10:59:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
HOGS: Raffle - for those that don't know - the raffle is in the SEND YER $$ IN PHASE... so get to lickin' and stickin' (for postal payments), or pointin' and clickin' (paypal payments).
BTW, we had around 87 buyers total, purchaing 210 tickets.
Ken :)
ken hunter <hunterkr@riflemen.net>
nokesville, va, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 11:49:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.30)
RICK:
Thanks for the feedback. I have to admit I think the P in METT-TP is a good idea.
I don't suppose that FM you are working on would be the one open to 11b's?
I plan to add the emphasis on issuing PIR/SIR to all "eyes and ears" and to add a part about conducting quality DEBRIEFS to it.
Do you think with those changes (and some MTT-TP issues) it would be ready to pass up the chain of command for a battalion SOP for an NG unit?
I will be waiting a while yet to see what else pops up here anyways.
FYI, we just got lined up with my old battalion and SETAF!
Thanks for the time and enjoy the decompression.
THOSE WHO EMAILED ME:
Thanks alot!
BRAVO:
Not sure what happened and don't mean to butt in, but I did work in law firms for about 4 years after leaving the army and did well in every regard except pay. Don't hesitate to email me if I can help out.

Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, May 18, 2001 at 12:22:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Gents,
Oh dark thirty this morn and I'm off and running. Tons to do...
On agenda is finally getting to shoot the 6.5 X 57 Mannlicher. If you don't get another post you'll know what happened!
.223 Stealth to recieve proper torqueing today as I now have the proper hex head for my torque wrench. Testing after.
All in all a good day.
Semper Fi,
Wes
Wes Howe <wsaa@proaxis.com>
Blodgett, OR, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 13:32:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 198.145.248.56)
Jefe..
I have been doing MA for over 35 years and if you want a good fighting system learn from all the styles. Forget the fancy stuff use only what works, if you want to kick someone in the head its a lot easier when he's on the ground than when he's standing what works on a dojo floor doesn't always work in the street.
You also need to remember that over 90% of all fights will end up on the ground, its the great equalizer. You can spend a life time becoming a great boxer or kicker and when your on your back it does you no good at all.
You need to be able to kick and punch and then be able to survive on the ground as well. Brazilian Jujitsu or Krav Maga(sp) are probably two of the best for all around self defense styles out there right now. Alot will depend on the instructor. To many of them have a Dojo mantality, and don't know what really works in the real world. Good Luck!!
Ken..
Money order will go out today for my donation.. Thanks for the work you have put in on this, we all appreciate it!!! Also thanks to George for building the rifle!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 13:37:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.3)
Marius...
Jo'berg vs Jo'burg... I'm with you, Dude... I yeld to the local talent ;)
The John jerk listed himself "MY SKILLS" forsale in the emporium... go-see ;) and see the thread ;) had fun with it ;)
A real dick head!
... "It is not 'Lito anymore, but "Yena obulala ebusuku" :-)"
I'm afraid to ask, but, What the hell is THAT!... do chicks dig it :)), or is it contagious :((

Pat...
>" if you want to kick someone in the head its a lot easier when he's on the ground than when he's standing "<
HA!... you're a notable philosopher, Ma man!, and a real piece of work ;) but for that Kung Fu stuff... bring a .45... bring a 12 ga for backup -HA!- ;)
It's hard to kick a man in the head, while he's on the ground, when he's pointing a 12 ga 870 at you ;))
'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
The trouble with cats... they gum up the paper shredder... in the, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 14:00:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.10)
'Yena obulala ebusuku' (Zulu, meaning "he who kills at night")
Thought you'd like that :-))))
Yes, I saw the John's post (or is it Le Jon?(sp?)) - he'd better watch out, lest his surname soon be Doe!
Mbogo (The Buffalo)
Marius <webmaster@snipercountry.com>
RSA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 14:19:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 196.25.27.66)
Automated counter sniper equipment - I wonder what sort of logic the system uses to prioritize targets. If you took your issue pistol and attached it to a tree (with a full clip), and then tied a string to the trigger.... could you echo every sniper round and always be the "last word" ? If the system always fired on the first shot, or the last shot fired, then the system would always be aimed at the unmanned pistol...(just guessing here)
Command and control - I find that this is always the one feature of an operation that is not prioritized and receives NO training attention. Command and control can make any team more effective, often in "orders of magnitude". I conceived an example, which I use to teach the basic principal called span of control.
Take any simple task, I might use the re-assembly of an AR15/M16 for this group. Have three of your best candidates demonstrate the task until you are certain that they all have it down cold. Now divide the remainder of your crew into three equal teams, ideally, you need five crewmen for each of the three "candidates"...
Tell the crews that they cannot do anything until explicitly told exactly what to do. They must do EXACTLY what they are told and may not lend any value added actions to the activity, they must only do EXACTLY what they are told.
Have each candidate now instruct one crewman, step by step, on the reassemble task (the "leader candidate" may not "demonstrate", they must only direct verbally). Have the three candidates then "race" to complete the task. By now, they should have the steps mentally assembled in their mind and down cold, clear and concise.
Now bring the other four members of each crew out and have the candidates verbally instruct each crew member separately on the re-assembly task. The objective being to complete all five rifles before the next team. Forbid any instructions to the group, allow only specific instructions to a single individual. The effect will stress the mental ability of each candidate to the maximum. Simply instructing 5 concurrent operations performing the same series of tasks demonstrates the theory of human span of control.
If you perform this drill regularly, with a different task for the crew each time, the candidates will develop command and control skills that will significantly improve the team. The return on training investment will be significant. Try it with an open mind and let me know how it works out... it sounds simple, but if executed correctly, it isn't.
Jim Mitchell <medicjim86@hotmail.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 14:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)
HUMOR:
Had to pass this one on.
Some folks were discussing sniper hides in the presence of a guy who is an avid hunter to say the least.
The hunter pipes up and says:
"I didn't know that snipers had hides. How much can I get for one?"
I had to roll at that one.
Jefe <diabloazul01@hotmail.com>
- Friday, May 18, 2001 at 16:21:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.49.177.98)
Steve...... on eradicating the big cats, the term 'sacrificial lamb' comes to mind. At dusk, tether one in a likely area, where there has been cat activity, and where you can develop an effective hide. Ideally your hide would be up in a tree overlooking your bait, so you could get a clear shot using 00 Buck, but big enough trees might be scarce in your area, so you might have to improvise using rock outcroppings, stands of cedar, sage, etc. BTW, sage does a great job of masking your human scent! Be a sniper, use the wind, the light of the moon will be your friend, be thankful for clear Arizona skies. There are a heck of a lot of Basque shepherds around here (Western Colorado) that use similar methods. Centuries ago, when I was attending College, I worked 2 seasons for sheep ranchers (no jokes here, 'lito) where I learned that trapping was pretty ineffective when dealing with mature Mountain Lions. You must be willing to invest a lot of time and have lots of patience. Good luck.
ALAN <asimon@gj.net>
PALISADE, COLORADO, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 16:29:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.64.66)
Ken the raffle money is in the mail. I can't wait to try out MY new Rock Rifle!!! :-) Question for the roster. With Black Hills beginning to support the 6.5x284 with "factory" brass, do you think this cartridge is going to begin dominating the LD shooting matches in the future? What I mean is do you think we will see a majority of shooters switch to this round for LR/Sniping purposes? I saw somewhere (can't remember exactly) where someone is offering match grade ammo for this round. Seems like it's catching on fast.
Jim Wise <jim5656@hotmail.com>
Frostproof, Fla, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 17:08:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.36.28.40)
Steve, Put all your sheep in one pen, and then use that night-vision scope on yer rifle.
Every one likes to quote Patrick Henry's "give me liberty" schtick, but how many do you think know the entire quote? Interesting reading. I personally think that, if you provide free beer and Monday night football, most Americans would easily roll over for anything.
If anyone can answer Steve's question on elevation changes for the 75 gr bullet from 600 to 1000, I would also like to know.
Charles S. Hunt <dpms223@aol.com>
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 17:33:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.188)
I must hang my head in shame. The raffle came and went, and I missed out.
But, sound like a great success. That's good.
The good news is I got the reflex II on my Bushmaster, and shot it at CQB side match last Sunday at Ft. Benning.
That bad boy is great fun. Last night I loaded up approx 150 rds to go out and practice...
Anybody got any suggestions for practice/drills ? I'm thinking about getting some 10 " or so paper plates and double tapping and mozambique-ing at different ranges. Any ideas appreciated.
COF at matches has been multiple targets and bowling pin neutralization from ranges of 7 out to 75 yds and beyond. Most all have been under 100yds.
Slow Poke Raffle Moron,
Jeffy A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 17:34:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.65.129)
6.5/284 ??? Geez I was thinking the 300 WSM was the next aspiring (Ken) technology of a sniper round. Looks like I'll have to win the raffle in July too !!!
Just trying to get the short barrel 308 with the Lapua 154's (thanks Doc) together for the SS classes and match in Sept since the 300 WM has been forbidden for to0 many hits. It's going to be close, the barrel is on it's way, the action is completed and the A3 stock is here. I've got a spare Badger mount,US Optics scope and rings and plenty of spray paint. So it's getting there.
Jim on the Automated audio counter-sniper stuff. I'm sure our great Uncle Sam has a whole bunch of counter measures hidden up his sleeve. Electronically detonated remote rounds, silenced weapons, remote flash bangs, a ventriloquist that fakes 308 sounds, etc. Otherwise we'll have to recruit lito, or whatever his new name is and his 50 cal. so they can get-um from afar. Maybe the UnDude can be his spotter and carry his 50 as a team weapon.
Ken did you ever get all your junk out of the driveway before the major gets home?
TonyY <ayackowski@pershing.com>
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 18:00:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.88.102)
ALAN,
I have a TRG-41, .338LM. I think it is the same action as the TRG-S. I had a custom rail made for it by Precision Arms. Talk to Gene Luke, phone (760) 489-1212. Cost me $175. I have not yet installed it. The screws were the hardest things for Gene to get. I had a Sako quick release scope mount. The 338LM ponded the crap out of it. The recoil sheared the recoil pin.
Good luck - Krowbar
KROWBAR <KROWBAR@SCSSSINC.COM>
Chapel Hill, NC, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 18:40:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 32.97.110.72)
Undude.
Some time back you posted that you were impressed with Winchesters 168 gr. Balistic SilverTip load, but had not much shooting with it at the time. Have you put enough down range to determine consistant accuracy? Over all impressions?
Bill.
Bill Byford <Byfords@otbnet.com>
IL, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 19:24:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.22.166.150)
Ref: Readiness
Nothing like seeing a freind put through a windshield to convince you to buckle-up.
out

Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 20:29:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.80.33.70)
Hell guy's as it says up here quit whinning!! I'm a SC Staffer and I MISSED THE RAFFLE!!
Better luck to us all NEXT TIME!!!
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@zianet.com>
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 23:03:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.234.200.143)
ASSOOOO Grasshopper Jefe!!!!!
When you can snatch the pebble from the opposite hand that the bad guy is holding the gun in before he shoots you, you can leave!
Went through 25 years or so of kicking, punching, blocking, sweeping, breaking, and general thrashing around on the floor. Now in my golden years I would much rather shoot, cut, spray OC or swing a damn mag bat. Have arthur in my hands and feet from breaking, scar tissue in my knees from kicking, two healed up ribs from dropping my guard with the wrong person on the other end of a damn fine reverse back kick, and still rattled brain cells from a big SOB that had 6' arms and 10' legs. Like I say; shoot, cut, spray, swing. You will live longer!
On the serious side, take a combination of Judo, Ju Jitsu, Akido and Kempo. That covers about every good style that I messed with. Don't kick above the BG's privates. Don't punch above the hyoid bone. Don't jump on someone when they are down like in the movies. Cheat and learn all the good "one punch places.

You guys quit drueling over Woolite! You might rust her up before she gets shipped!

TGIF, Bolt out!
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
NC, USA - Friday, May 18, 2001 at 23:04:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.50.54.177)
Jim Wise,
Hornady is supporting the 6.5x284 brass as well! Whoa, easy boy. ;))
ANYONE:
Have any of you fellas used Hornady's Light and Heavy Magnum loads? I know a lot of you are hunters as well as competition shooters, and the increase of 100-200fps looks mighty appetizing. Hell, I never thought you could get 3000+fps out of a 30'06 w/ a 165gr pill. And the fact that they do it w/out pressure of maximum conventional load...man...I'm getting excited