Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 19, 2000 - May 28, 2000

To add to the confusion, I spent 20 years in the old WWII type diesel submarines. We were (all qualified submariners are) designated SS. It stands for Silent Service, submersible ship, sinking shitcan, silly shits.... who knows...? Just another slant on the SS, no, not sniper or nazi oriented.

Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.132.161)

Sniper vs Tank - Hmmm, now there is a senerio that is missed represented alot. The idea is to get the TC to button up and then let the TOWs, etc cave in the side of the tank. Once the tank is buttoned up they are vulnerable. One of the reason that the Isrealis are so successful is that they do not let the TCs button up. While this is very hard on the TCs, It allows the TC to see launch signatures and bring peepee on the offending buttheads that just launched the missle. If you whack the TC, (driver is better) then all the better, aim low and skip it in. This increases the chance of a splatter hit and it lets them know they have been shot at and in danger. If you can get them to button up and deploy early then you have done your job. I will guantee you that they are more worried about missle launch then 7.62mm copper gilding marks on their tank. When they button up they will be watching for launch signature not looking for the human that shot that round, unless the human is so open that he is obvious. I'm sure that some will disagree and that is what all this is about, discussing different methods, unfortunately I'll be away from my computer for the next week and a half, so if you have a real good thought on this email me so I will see it. Otherwise I'll miss it in the roster.

DM vs Sniper - This is a matter of mission and not name. In the scenerios I've seen on the roster, it would be up to the sniper to match the right hammer to the right job. Who would use a brass mallet when a sledge is required or better still who would use a hammer when a nail gun would be faster and appropriate, ask Norm of the New Yankee Workshop. To argue that one gun is better than another all the time is not going to ever work. There are times when the bolt gun is the required tool, there are times when a fast shooting M4 is the required tool. There are times, to include Africa scenerio, when both are required. Try taking out some low life using a human shield at 300 meters with a weapon designed to take down the human wave attack. But that weapon to take down the human wave will be needed to protect the whole. One is for more steel on target and the other is for the surgical under adverse conditions. You can't have one without the other, just match the tools with the requirements. My arguement is that the semi, in it's present form, will not replace the bolt gun for that surgical. That bolt gun will not hold terrain though and it can not be decisively engaged. That is its big weakness. Though with proper planning and assessment of the situation, the sniper can put a package together that will prevail.

Got to go guys have fun for th next couple weeks. I will be thinking of you guys AND "gals" (?what is the accptable word now days?) while I go on my vacation.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.183)

Thanks to all for the help on the case lube question. Making a fundamental change in reloading procedure needed research.

High Power Question: Am I suffering paralysis by analysis, and using up a perfectly good barrel testing loads? I plan to chase some leg points this summer, and I would like NOT to LOSE them at 600.

Dave Liwanag, 'Lito, UnDude & company, do you guys think I am expecting too much out of my 600 yard AR load? It consistently groups just over 3.00" for 10 shot groups with open sights at 300 yards off sandbags. (The distance I test all loads at initially. I will shoot it at 600 this weekend.) My scope mount is FUBAR, so I have to rely on the iron sights right now. Maybe our AMU guy (sorry, I forgot your name) can help me out, what do you consider an acceptable group for a 600 yard AR15/M16 load? As a point of reference, I have a 77gr Sierra load for 200 & 300 that I can keep 10 shots in 2.5" at 300 off of sand bags.

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Paralysis by analysis, in south west PA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.218)

Gee, did I start this? I've used you guy'ses logic (and I DO see it), thought hard on it, and determined that my answer was right. Just asked the wrong question. I stand by my weapon (right or wrong), the M-25 as being THE ideal weapon for ME. Now, I'm no sniper, LE or MIL. Probably never will be. But I am a "wanna be" spotter. Am I the first guy to ever opt for the spotters position over the snipers? I honestly beleive that this weapon is about as good of a spotters weapon as can be for the majority of times (yeah, no one thing is going to be right ALL the time). I'm not trying to use a hammer instead of a 5/16" boxend wrench, I'm saying that I'm a mechanic, not a carpenter. Don't need any hammers (no Chev's in the garage) and nails, but a good set of wrenches is a MUST. You guys are PERFECTLY right. If I were going for surgical precision, first round hits, I'd be using the wrong tool. That's what a snipers for, and it ain't me! Seems to me that Mawhenny used to carry a bolt gun AND a M-14. Must have had a reason, that's a lot of excess weight.

And Kevin of the North: I'm also a big beleiver in a pistol as well. Not so much for necessity as the psycological comfort it gives. I KNOW what kind of a pistol shot I am, and I KNOW what kind of a rifle shot I am. So I love the pistol, and will give Mike a "teaching challenge" :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Oh, I wish I lived in the land of liberty, but I guess I have to settle for the, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.200)

I have to say my new Starlight case is outstanding. Also had excellent dealings w/ the Forster people lately. (Went to Redding,anyway).
Also my thanks to Pablito lately and Bill (dc8 plumber).

I love my M1A, but the groups open up when the bbl gets hot. Plus, after 2 Mudville matches in the rain, I am going to have Jerry Rice redo a M700 I have recently purchased. You don't need to be in the bush for several days to see the difference between the two systems. One rainy Mudville will convince you. The "beast" funtioned flawlessly, but when that flaky gravel that is on the firing line sticks to you, your scope, and all over your weapon, you see the light.
Spud,
Semper-Fi!
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 06:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.68)

Gentlemen:

I have decidade to trade my Leupold Tactical Vari III 4.5-14 40mm for another scope.
It may be a Kahles 6x42 K-ZF95 Mil-Dot or a Schmidt und Bender 3-12x50 Police Marksman P-1 Bryant.

My Leupold has a mil-dot reticle so I know what to expect but the Bryant reticle is unknown to me (its capabilities).

Finnaly my main goal it to aquire a scope with the better build quality and rugedness.

Could you please be so kind to help me with your expertise?

Thank you.

P. Marcos
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
Lusitania - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.65.14.68)

Rick...

We agree on the bolt v. Semi thing (same page of music again ;)... and you said it well.

Bravo Dudeski!!...
Yes, it's your fault!... and Hathcock's spotter carried a 14 also, and did it prowd in "Elephant Vally"... each gun's attributes supporting the other, to the major dismay of the enemy!

If the world goes to hell in a hand basket, and they're burning down the houses on the next street, you can plop your raggity-assed M1A on my porch any time ;)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)

DAVE LIWANAG,
Speeking of leg points, congratulations on the Silver last weekend!

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.26.196)

?????????Does anyone know of any civilian sniper schools??????????????????????
Jim <jim586@thecia.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 11:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.97.42)

All:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AND GO TO THIS SITE:

http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html

An extremely well done spoof on a well known official. Be patient with it - it takes about 5 minutes for the whole show...

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:15:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

All:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AND GO TO THIS SITE:

http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html

An extremely well done spoof on a well known official...Be patient with it - takes about 3 to 4 minutes for the whole show.

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

Rowdy,
I don't think there is such a thing as a "Do All" rifle but you need to decide what you will be doing the "Most" of and go with one that will cover your needs for the majority of the time. I would not be afraid of a plain BDLSS in the 308. I have one in a 260 and it will shoot 3 shot groups in the 2.5" range at 400yds all day long everyday as long as I don't get it very hot. The heavy barrel theory gets taken to the extreme once in a while, esp. with "Snipers" and "Tactical" shooters. We all want the pin point accuracy but in reality we still spend one hell of a lot more time carring it than shooting it. I have seen some very light barrel rifles shoot nearly one hole 3 shot groups and if were honest with ourselves don't we like to preach "One shot one kill" so why the big heavy barrels??? I think part of it has come from tactical matches where a lot of shooting is required with pin point accuracy, I have seen some people even going to bench rest calibers to try and gain and edge in the accuracy phase. Now from that little speach you might think I own mostly light barreled rifles, WRONG!! mine are all heavy except for my hunting rifle, the 260 BDLSS. I have them from 10 to 15lbs. but then I shoot a lot when I go out and shoot and when you shoot a lot a heavy barrel has the advantage because it heats up much slower and stays consistant much longer. So to make a long story short, pick a rifle to fit "YOUR" needs not someone elses idea of what is in "Style". Just my opinion for what its worth, Good luck!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 13:26:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

| Subject: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
|
| To one and all:
|
| This is the latest move in the destruction of the 2nd Amendment by the
| Clinton Commu-Nazis.
| Some of the names you will see below are real "heavy hitters" in the
| shooting world. Note: MSG Steve Reiter is the current and past National
| Pistol champion. MSG Fox is Ruby Fox, womens' National Pistol champion
| for about a dozen or more years running, and one of the few 2600+ womman
| shooters in the world.
| Despite the fact that there are more Olympic medals awarded for
| shooting than any other discipline - 13 in total - it looks like the USA
| will loose by default this year.
| It should be further noted that these were the same people who saved
| the US Army's bacon when the Infantry school fell on it's face for lack
| of marksmanship training in Desert Storm!
| Some people never learn.
|
| Respectfully,
|
| MSG David J. Lindstedt, Sr.
| US ARMY (retired)
| former team captain & coach 79th ARCOM Pistol team
|
| PS: Please forward this to any and all interested parties.
|
|
|
| --------- Forwarded Message ---------
|
| From: "MCILHANEY,ROBERT L.", INTERNET:
| To: "Dave Lindstedt
| Date: 5/16/00 5:21 AM
| RE: FW: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
|
| Dave,
|
| Well they have done it to us. It is official now. All Army reserve
| marksmanship teams and activities are going to be stopped. If you have
| friends in high places or know someone who does
| we could use the help with some face ripping letters.
| Bob
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Harry Russell
| Subject: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
| I got this email from Helmut today. It was a bit of a shock, although
| a lot of us had seen it coming; here it is in black and white. At the
| end of Perry, we have to turn in our equipment.
| Many of you have connections in high places, whether it be the
| military or politicians. We need to call in on all of our favors to try
| and keep the program going. I need someone to write a letter and pass
| out to our teammates to sign and mail to our Representatives in
| Congress, Senate and anyone else who will listen, including USARC. The
| letter should describe the benefits that the Army receives by having us
| as a Team and also the long tradition that we have had. We have
| wordsmiths on the Team who are more eloquent than I am and know the
| history of the Team better. Please let me know ASAP if you would like
| to volunteer to do this. If not, I'll take the bull by the horns and
| try to write it myself. Other Service Teams may also have a personal
| interest because if our program is cancelled, theirs also may be
| adversely affected. Let's go down with a fight and try and save our
| program!!!
|
| MAJ Russell
|
|
| Gentlemen,
|
| 1. It is my sad duty to inform you that the USAR is the first military
| organization to cancel competitive marksmanship activities. Hopefully
| the USAR will be the only one to do so.
|
| 2. Each of the teams (Pistol, Rifle, and Combat) will make arrangements
| to turn-in their equipment at the completion of this year's
| competitions. The equipment (which includes firearms) will be returned
| to the property book holder, the Small Arms Training Team (SATT).
| a. Pistol Team. All soldiers competing in the National Matches
| will turn their equipment in at Camp Perry, OH, after the pistol phase
| of the National Matches. Any team members who do not participate in the
| Nationals must make arrangements to turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 July 2000.
| b. Rifle Team. All soldiers competing in the National Matches will
| turn their equipment in at Camp Perry, OH, after the rifle phase of the
| National Matches. Any team members who do not participate in the
| Nationals must make arrangements to turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 August 2000.
| c. Combat Team. All soldiers will turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 August 2000.
|
| 3. Ammunition will be issued in quantities that will be expended no
| later than the turn-in dates. The remaining ammunition will be
| consolidated for transfer to the Army Marksmanship Unit or the National
| Guard Marksmanship Training Unit for use in their competitive
| marksmanship programs. MAJ Steven Spencer, as the All-USAR Shooting Team
| Ammunition Officer, is responsible for the
| disposition of ammunition.
|
| 4. The Army Marksmanship Unit will not order any new ammunition.
| Expendable items necessary for the successful completion of this year's
| activities may still be procured.
|
| 5. Additional information will be provided in future correspondence.
|
| 6. If we have to go out, let's go out with a big BANG (at Interservice
| and the Nationals that is).
|
|
| Helmut J. Hein Lynn Belcher
| Assistant Branch Chief,
| Individual Training Branch
| U.S. Army Reserve Command

*******************************************
Anyone seen this? Is it true? Is DoD returning to the practice of not practicing marksmanship, again? I thought DoD was getting more into marksmanship. Does this also mean that CMP is going away, perhaps?

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.160.133.50)

Re: Destruction of USAR Shooting Team

"A country too long at peace inevitably attacks itself".

(I don't know who authored this, but it seems to fit)

Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
the divided State of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.235)

Jim

Re: Civilian sniper schools.

Check out www.stormmountain.com or contact bobbywhit@hotmail.com.

Storm Mountain is about as close as you're gonna find to a military style sniper course and Bobby runs a fine course also.

You might also consider the "Hardrock" matches put on at Ft Benning each month. While not schools they are sniper oriented matches and you will learn a lot by attending them. Contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com for more info.

On the USAR team. Too bad. Its a shame. Having been knee deep in the active USMC team and the ARNG budget process's at their MTU's I don't know if I would look at the Clinton admin as being the root of this. Most of the time its the budget fags at DA/HQMC etc that force this. In the reserve forces its all about recruiting and retention. If you can't tie into this, you're out.

Out

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)

Pat

I read your comments on the current state of the military. And have to say that most people have know Idea how bad it really is.

I got out amost 3 years ago. I started on a fast attach submarine (10 years ago) where if I even thought about a mistake or hesitated with an answer for a qualification, I was knocked on my a#$%%%%**.

After sea duty I was assigned to a submarine tender which was about 65% female because there was no other place for them in the US Navy. Also it made getting a good shore billet almost impossible.

As for the submarine tender duty, most of the women there were single parents who always had an excuse why they had to go home early or why work just could not get done because of sick kids.

Trust me I could go on and on about this subject.

Bottom Line is that the personel on the submarines are highly trained but they are not responsible and no were near the quality of the submariners 10-15 years ago. Because we are not allowed to train them properly. The people repairing these submarines are even worse.

I really hope we are not involved any thing resembling a war in our current state because some LESSONS will be learned the hard way and people will die just because they are not properly prepared and the equipment is not battle ready.

thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
Murrieta , CA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.194)

Kevin, we agree on the two rifle approach. One Sniper one M4. Pistol just becomes to heavy at that point. My opinion. I would rather carry two extra mags for the M4.

On Pistols, Bravo, anyone that can shoot a pistol can be trained to shoot a rifle minus handicaps. I have carried a pistol for a long time, daily, and just prefer a rifle to save my butt. Seen too many guys say "PLease dont shoot me again"

Got to go

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 18:25:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.47)

Luso,
Whilst the Bryant reticule is acceptable at X12 magnification, it 'disappears' (becomes a tiny, unreadable smudge in the centre of your field of view) if you zoom the S+B scopes back down to X3 magnification. Stick with mil-dot on S+Bs.
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 19:39:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.43)

Jim ( in Columbus, GA)

What Gooch said re: the "Hardrock" matches is accurate. I'm pretty much a newbie, really, at this. This will be my first complete year competing in matches.

The matches are on Sundays(as a rule) at the Ft. Benning English Range. These happen once a month. The other half of the tactical series is held in Ala. on a private farm. Magnificent place complete with 1000yd range. I'm getting up at 3AM tomorrow to drive there and try to get some zero shots in before the relays. The Alabama matches are generally once a month, as well. So it's two matches per month, usually.

Anyway, there are many great people; great equipment; great atmosphere. You can learn a lot ( I have). Not to mention the thrill of the doing. My excitement is my own worst enemy, but that's one of many reasons I go.

Rusty is a great guy, and I'm sure he would provide you with details. Also, the phone # for the Benning Club is 706 689 3371. Ask for Mr. McQuinn or Jim Graham. I'd throw in their email but EDS has clamped shut the corporate mailsystems due to the lastest virus scare. I think it's brpc@mindspring.com or some such.

Hey, you're in Columbus !!! You're right there..

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

I am going to be purchasing a Tasco SS 10x42 mil-dot scope. I have a question on zeroing at a 100 yard range. Would it be practical to crank down the elevation adjustment so that there were only 10 or 20 clicks left to go down before boresighting, then boresight for roughly 100 yards? That way when you zero, you would already be close to 100 yards and wouldn't waste elevation by having the elevation adjustments in the middle and not have enough elevation beyong 4-5 hundred yards.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
Rohnert Park, CA, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 00:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.176.132.119)

Pete Robinson; I'm thinking you have some way to move the mount to accomplish the boresight? Are you talking about shimming the mounts?
Or lapping them to zero? Normally boresighting uses the turrets unless the mount is adjustable. If you have adjustable mounts it would be very practical to do that. Or did I miss something?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 00:46:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Got a copy of Karen Christenson's long range shooting
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

Got a copy of Karen Christenson's long range shooting "game" the other day. Its not really a game rather a training aid. It's good to go guys and I recomend it. Check it out at www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/longrangeshooting.html

I've only messed with half of the thing so far and its easy to lose yourself in it. Its very well done and to tell you the truth... I wish I had thought of it!!

As soon as I can convince the rest of TRGT to come on board we will be selling it.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

Hey Gooch; I'll tell you my first score if you'll tell me yours!
You first!
He's right guys! It's a great way to learn the dots.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:48:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Doh!! Its Karin Christenson. Sorry Karin!!!

Kent
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

GUY'S, MR. GOOCH, is right on about Ms. Christenson's training aid, it's really nice,I use it and sub my own load data , so I can learn my c up's & windage.Try it it's a HOOT!, Thank you MA'M!...tshoes
"BIG D".
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:02:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.211)

Steve, quit wasting your time shooting test loads. You have the load you need in the 77s for 200 and 300 yards. How tight must the gun group for high power competition? 10 rounds in the 10/X-ring with iron sights for 200 and 300 yards, 20 in the 10/X-ring at 600.

Now go shoot. A lot. Replace barrel as needed.

STOP THE MADNESS! Stop couch-potato G-2'ing gear picks. Strap it on and go to the woods. If you don't need it, dump it. If you do need it, get it.

Sniper versus tank? You're kidding, right? I doubt a thermal-sighted main-gunner is going to use his co-ax machinegun on one knucklehead and spotter when his TC's body falls through the hatch and lands on his head. He's looking for the next incoming (fill in here: TOW, Javelin, Milan, HOT, LAW, RPG, Sagger, etc.) that's gonna smoke him. History example: Israeli tank commanders suffer the highest head/upper torso wounds of their combat arms. So did the Soviets in Afghanistan, and now the Russians in Chechnya. A buttoned-up tank is blind.

Thanks, Paul.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Mike: The only time you need a pistol is when you don't have one. I agree they usually are more trouble than they are worth,... but

Tanks: come on you think a sniper det is going to be a priority, maybe after all the anti-armour systems are dealt with. Besides you really want to take a shot at any old tank? - Sqn comd and up yeah... but hey button em up with arty - them burn 'em with tow. Also re:thermal, you can't tell a sniper det from a fire team so why waste a HEAT rd when .50 or 7.62 coax will do.

Spotters: (I'll rest on this after - I swear) Ideally your spotter is a qualified sniper as well - and you will be switching on and off - Esp. if you are in a hide for awhile. Now you see the tgt - wake your buddy - do you really want him to shoot now? Best he acts as spotter while you do the shooting - given that, do you really want a gas gun?
M4A1's are good to at least 600m, not ideal, but sufficent. Yes there are times when a M21/25, SR-25 etc. will do, but I don't think many of us would want to be limited in that way - One round can get by, but after three or four even a pre-schooler can narrow your position down
BUT I am quite willing to admit to scenarios that a 7.62 gas gun is an effective (and possbily welcomed) aid. Tailor you kit to the mission, not limit the mission due to your kit's insufficiencies (HEY any CDN Brass watching)

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.143.206)

Been listening in on the snipers backup weapon discussion. Who else feels like they would rather hump an M4 type as opposed to say an M9, HK, or Sig?
I'm thinking that the added weight might be worth it.Wasn't this subject brought up before? Some were talking about 12ga. shotguns then I believe. Is anyone doing this? How do you carry the weapon that is not in use? How much ammunition do you carry for the M4?
I might have to consider selling the Sig P220 in favor of an AR15 type. Something else to cloud my brain with.
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:28:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.139)

Gentlemen,

first of all, the feedback on the choice of the "tools of the trade" you all gave was invaluable and admittedly I came out being far better informed in a lot of things. But my own beleif and bottomline regarding equipment still remains the same : Equipment is equipment and the best choise is the "hammer" that one's training, tactical, operational and deployment doctrine allows one to perform at maximum efficiency.

When it comes what "tool" shoots better MOA's, with all things being equal (training and judgement ability), I think from now on I will only accept statements that are based on test results derived from purely mechanical methods.

Want to compare two weapons ? Put the weapons, each one in turn in an anchored, stable, non-flexible vise made out of tool steel and conduct firing tests at staged distance ranges and controlled conditions.

Then take the firearms for a trip in your favourite Indian/mud/hill/mountain/, put them on the same vise again and under the same conditions, conduct the test again.

Perhaps this is "a" or "the" way to distinguish who manufactures a true combat weapon system and who manufactures something that shoots nice little tight MOA's only when the stock is glass beaded, the ammunition is handloaded with surgical precision, the shooter visits a gunsmith whose middle name is "Yoda" every week and the rifle is shot only every 15th day of the month after being trasported to the range in a velvet lined guncase (and the oracle advises the shooter that the planet allignment is right).

All firearms created equal ? You bet they are not. But nearly all combat rifles, properly maintained, fall within a comparable and, most importantly, predictable range of operating efficiency under nearly any operating condition. On the other side, one comes across a civvie firearm that boasts an AK/HK/Rem 700/K98/ and if it has a tigerstripe cammo stock, it is called "sporter" and if it has a black painted stock and an increase in price of 250%, it is dubbed "tactical". But hey... one still paid over three thou for it so it HAS to be good and since it is the "tactical" version, it automatically means that it will not fail you in the real world. I think I will paint my front door black and dub it "Tactical Intrusion Countermeasure System (tm)" and feel good about myself.

Anybody under the impression that Vassily Zaitsev or Major Walter Könings returned after every mission to a beer cooler and a master armourer to breastfeed their rifles ?

This post is way too long and it is way too late in the day. Just disregard it... nothing but the ramblings of a youngster...

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 08:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)

Did i forget to mention that I swear by the quality of German firearm engineering ?

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 09:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)

Again, for the spotter, what's your mission? You really MUST rotate guys off the optics every 30 minutes or so, before the eyestrain makes you ineffective. The two or three guys in position have to agree on the optimum combo of first-round lethality versus group suppression (the bad guys' buddies) and break-contact firepower. All three must be able to rotate on to the main gun or the spotter's gun.

Why does everyone make the assumption a sniper must ALWAYS shoot and run away? If you're on the OFFENSIVE, with your own mutually protecting infantry, tanks, and indirect fire, you swing a mighty club as well.

Walter Reed Army Medical Research Center has done great studies on sleep deprivation. A guy may be a walking zombie after 24-48 hours continuous without sleep, and it DOES NOT affect accuracy. With a sniper rifle or 25mm chain gun he will consistently nail any target. Problem now becomes a clouded judgment call (his reactions are hindered about the same as a .01 blood-alcohol content) -- he can smoke the target within a half-minute of angle accuracy. New problem -- he smokes a friendly 50-75% of the time, bigger than Stuttgart during Oktoberfest.

Oh, and tanks seldom travel without infantry.

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Fellas:

Anyone know if a Chandler Tactical Precision Mount will fit on an HS Precision (HTR) action?

HS says "anything that will fit a Rem 700 will fit ours as well..." but IBA says they've had at least one of their customers in TX tell them the Mount did NOT fit....

Thanks.

Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.90.112.97)

Just picked up a new rifle from an FFL holder on a transfer. Problem is, he is holding a box of Black Talon rifle ammo (included in the shipment as a "thanks for buying from me" gift) hostage pending a response from ATF regarding whether or not it is restricted as ARMOR PIERCING AMMO! When he opened the shipping box and saw the ammo, he thought he remembered that Black Talon rifle ammo in .308 was somehow restricted. Then he held a magnet up to it and decided that it contains steel, so he called the ATF technical division and asked them if the ammo is restricted. When I told him that I thought Black Talon pistol ammo was restricted by Winchester to law enforcement sales only, he said rifle ammo in .308, .223, and 7.62x39mm is restricted. So, I am stuck waiting for him to get a call back from ATF. Does anyone know if he is correct?

DNH <dh972@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.56)

Hate to make this "politics" county, but we could use some help. Some "good meaning" people want to pass some legislation to restrict where our concealed carry permits are valid. They're having a major "drive" at every library in every town in the state (UTAH) between 10:00 and 14:00 today. If this stuff goes through, it would keep licensed concealled weapons out of churches and schools. Not gonna preach to the choir, just need more people to do what I'm headed out to do. Stand in front of a library for 4 hours with some signs, handing out anti-gun control flyers, hopefully making some pro-carry media opertunities. And of course, keeping folks from (through education!) signing that stupid form. We now return you to the ongoing debate....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the commie infiltrated state of, Utah, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 14:30:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.193)

DNH...
Your "Dealer" is a jerk... tell him to read the manuals that come with the license!
The black talon line is an expanding line of bullets, not "armour piercing"... and it was Winchester's decision to "restrict" sales to police, because of media pressure... not the "ATF's".

But they re-named the stuff, made some cosmetic changes, and it is still on the civilian market, without the "scary name".

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 15:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.79)

Dave,
I think I get tunnel vision sometimes, since we don't have organic pl and coy snipers. I always think in terms of a BN asset, or higher, that deploys for the most part w/o support. I agree on the eyestrain issue, but if your in a hide for a week or so, 30min shifts aren't going to cut it. -as for lack of sleep, I guess if you can talk to a tree, you can drop buddy just as fast.
A little bird told me one of your Lt Col's (from Lewis) got his pee-pee wacked for using handloads at a All-Navy PACFLT match (career going, career going, career stops -don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!) I take it this a great faux pas? Moral of this story don't call for an alibi when using handloads.

Ares: A rest/vise is probably not a realistic field expedient, but some good points.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 16:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.1)

Kev, don't know about the faux pas at Lewis. The old Excellence-in-Competition rules were everyone HAD to shoot issue M1 or 7.62 Match. CMP changed the rules since there is no US standard 5.56 Match (across all services).

"CMP Rule 4-18. Ammunition. A. Rifle. Rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition."

The Navy issues Leg Match 7.62 and 5.56mm ammo to shooters who bring their score card to center of the line prior to first relay.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Kev, my mistake: if it was a COMBAT match, which is supposed to be issue 5.56 NATO Ball, and off-the rack M16A2s, then the guy ought to be disqualified and had the snot kicked out of him behind the trucks.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

I was there before, durring, and after the gun grab folks. Handed out leaflets to anything that would take it (salute it, pick it up, or paint it?), had signs, support and all. Couldn't turn away more than a hand full of folks or so out of the 50 or so that showed up. "I saw the ad for the petition in the paper", and "I heard the coverage on NPR" is what I heard a LOT of. Thanks, biased media. You've got folks driving out to take away gun rights on Armed Forces day. Now you guys know why I drink, and why I sign off the way I do. Even had some 70 or 80 year old couple wanna be nasty to me, calling me everything short of a terrorist for supporting concealed carry permit holders entering schools legally. I need a beer or 12. Sorry for the intrusion, just thought you might wanna know our side is on the losing end, my energy and eloquent speaches included. :-(
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.157)

Kudos to Pablito

Just finished doing my trigger as per Lito's extremely well written step by step instructions. I now have a smooth as glass 30 oz. trigger. Which should help my group size tremendously.

I encourage others to follow his instructions to the letter and you to will be plesantly surprised with the results.

Again, hats off to lito for sharing his expertise.

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.36.75)

Looking through the catalogs, I notice that LEE produces a bullet feed kit and a case feed kit for their press. Has anyone tried adapting either or both of these to a Hornady Pro-Jector? I've heard of adapting the bullet feed to a Dillon, thought it might be possible and worth it. Not that I would own one of their presses....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
comunist infiltrated, state of Utah, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 22:30:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)

semi throwing brass all over the place- you never hear of a brass catcher- now granted ,you have to modify them slightly to get them to work with a scope sight, but with this thing in place, the brass argument doesn't hold water- before canada went stupid and banned the m14-i had one with a brass catcher attached- you cocked it by screwing a piece of cleaning rod into the charging handle, pulling it back to cock, and then unscrewing the rod- grated it was complicated, but i never lost one round of brass- it was secured by a couple of snaps that mated the stock to the catcher-right now my principle is a savage 99 rs rechambered to 308-something acceptable to thje can govt for the moment
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.216)

Ah a thread has raised its head. Trigger weight. Danny this is not a hammer on you just a comment that your post brought to mind.

IN MY OPINION too many people take their triggers too light. In my mind there is nothing wrong with a good, crisp 3 - 3.5 pound trigger. Here is my thought process...

1. In my personal experience I've had a problem with keeping a good firm grip on the rifle when the trigger gets too light. I tend to want to "baby" the trigger and lighten my grip with a light trigger.

2. I think a sub 3 pound trigger is too light for a tactical shooter when under stress. I had a light trigger (around 2 pounds) on my M24 when I went through the Army course and had a "AD" for my first sighter shot on the KD qual. I was settling in for the first shot and whoa nellie!! M40A1s are set at 3.5 pounds and my C24 is at 3.2 pounds and that's just about right for me. I can lay the finger on the trigger, get settled etc without fear of launching. I'm not talking about leaving my finger on the trigger between shots. Just talking about the placing the finger on the trigger just prior to the shot.

3. A light trigger doesn't have an absolute correlation to smaller group size. Good trigger control does. Now it could be argued that a lighter trigger makes trigger control easier but I think you lose a degree of control when you go below a certain level.

Any other thoughts on this? Lets get buisy!!

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)

Brian - Brass catchers. You every seen a piece of brass get hung up in the ejection port due to a brass catcher? I haven't but was wondering if that would be an issue. I've used my ghillie veil to cover up ejecting brass on an M21 before.

out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)

i've never had a round hang up on me like that- i have the solid catchers by e&l on my car15, uzi, and m14- or at least had- i did hear about something loke that happening to the bag type, but never had it happen in real life9you notice how i used the past tense- i don't have any of those now
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:49:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.46)

I LIKE that ENTER thing on the address...

Agree w/ Gooch on the trigger issue. Running down a wounded magpie (12 Ga.) once a looong time ago and decided I'd finish 'im w/ one well-placed .44 Spec. from my M29. He stopped, I stopped, and as I was pulling down on 'im it went off in the dirt. That night the trigger was readjusted to 3 lbs. (single -action). Taught me a lesson.
Then there was the ND w/ my 7 mag... Went down range but I have been satisfied w/ 3-5 lbs. depending on use in my firearms nowadays. What's REALLY important is that clean break and lots of PRACTICE.

I too have used a face veil or scarf w/ my M1A. Works good but I don't use it often. I attached some velcro to it and then velcro it to my scope. Lays 'em right at my feet offhand and right next to the weapon from prone. Excellent in tall grass.
May try it @ Mudville one day. I'm sure the bolt-gunner on my right would be grateful.
Semper-Fi,
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, californicateya, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 05:52:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.221.21)

I also have to agree with Mista Gooch on the trigger release thing, mine is set at 2 1/2 lbs, and is probably a little on the light side.

Tactical rifles are meant for abuse, not coddling like some princely bench rest rifle. Now don't go getting the idea I wish somebody beating my noggin baseball bat style with an M-24 clone, buuuuut,

a 6mmPPC "Tactical rifle" w/ BR type trigger weight?????

One thing I understand is the Stress concept in training based on some real life experiences and a lotta IPSC (old style) and creative training some shooting buddies came up with in the late 1970s and early 1980's while training for L-E careers, or just self preservation in bad neighborhoods.

Once that blood gets pumping and adrenaline rushes along at light speed from doing something like a simulated 400 yard Foot pursuit followed by a brief bit of fancy gunplay with a .45 auto, 9mm, or .38 revolver You develop a greater understanding of your own own mortality and physical conditioning! Yep this is "Spindley little" peteR who doesn't get fed/eat enough talking.

For those fit enough to try a 100 yard dash, say from the target bank/butts to the firing line, then unlock your POV trunk, grab said unloaded & cased rifle, run to line, (walk if other shooters are present for safety), then load a round from an ammo box or SSP and fire it at a 2" sized "T" at 100 or 200 yards. Lets try under 5 minutes for start times and decrease it from there.

Light weight "Go buttons" (UNDER 2 1/2 LBS)are better left to either the Master Snipers, or those more interested in static position accuracy shooting.

Off my soap box, and away to start sawing trim on yet another persons home in....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.183)

Trigger pulls...

I'll probablt catch a lotta' flack for this, but I don't think there is "one right" weight.

You can spring set 5 different gun triggers to the same weight, and when you shoot them, they will all feel different, due to the width (wide ones feel lighter than narrow ones), and where the finger settles on the trigger... lower feels lighter than higher.
Also, hands are different, and experence is different. It isn't the number of ounces that matters, it's whether you are in control of it that matters. If you are constantly wondering "when the hell is this sucka going to let go"... it's too heavy.
If you are often surprised by it going off as you're just starting up, it's too light... if you feel "it'll go any moment" and it does, you are in control, and it's right for the gun, the type of shooting, and the amount of stress/fatigue you have in that type of shooting.

I have field rifles that are 2 oz's (P'Dogs and Crows), and 5 pounds (Spotters matches)... and both are fine for the type of shooting they do.

Whatever it is, you need to be in control, and practice with it.

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)

Ares, you make a point and as as soon as I start using a bench rest/vise to snipe with I will use one to test products. Test things the way you plan to use them. That by the way comes from more than just me. The first M16's failed in combat because they were not tested under the same conditions or with the same ammo. Your method would not have shown this either, but putting them in the mud, out of the vice would have. As to why certain rifles and equipment called tactical remain more expensive than sporter versions, it is as simple as the old race car approach of how fast you want to go depends on how much you have to spend. Granted that a point is reached in which you are just over spending but if you think the only difference between a Remington VS and a Chandler, NorCal, Gardner, HxS, McBros or another dozen names built rifles, is the color of the paint, you have another thing coming. It is like thinking a Yugo is the same as a Porsche. I do not need to put any rifle in a vice to see if it willl shoot. And while your at it top your Yugo equivilent rifle with a scope made in China instead of a Tactical MK4.

On the Chandler Mount working on a standard Remington 700. I am not sure on this but I think they clip slot the receiver on the Chandler built guns(Like the Marines) and use that slot as another mounting point on the base. If that is the case the mount will only work with a clip slotted receiver. Cost to clip slot is about 150-200.00. More if painted black.LOL

On trigger: About 3lbs is about right. Less than that and you better use only that and pray you dont go bang when you were not ready to go bang.

Rick, have a nice vacation. If you see your daughter tell her to keep her head down.

I have been working with the XM107 from Barrett. Have not shot it at greatdistance yet, but so far I really like it. It is light, for a 50, and breaks down to the biggest piece being about 32" long. Barrett is sending a backpack designed for it. I will strap it on my back and see how the thing feels to pack when it gets here. Anyone have any favorite 50 calammo they would like to see tested in one? The M99 Barrett also came in. It is also fairly light(25lbs) and looks like a very promising less than $3000.00 50cal matchg rifle. All barretts now have Krieger bbls.

Gardner is working on a McBros based Navy 50cal. That one is just waiting on a KxP bbl.

I have been shooting a great deal of the BlackHills ammo lately. It is working out very well. Somebodt finally has come along to push Federal into getting the quality back into their ammo.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Mike; is right the Black Hills is good stuff. It is primarily remanf and shoots with anything else. Local PD shoots it exclusively except in certain cases where something like Talon's are needed.
2 cents worth
Trigger control; If a trigger makes much difference you are lacking in trigger training. Now that's a harsh statement, I know. But it takes a long time of training and shooting not to notice a bad trigger system on the target so don't slash your wrists yet. Everyone likes good triggers and there's nothing wrong with trying to have a good one. 4lbs is about max I set triggers but 2lbs is light for hunting or combat weapons. Lito' has fired the 2 oz Remington on those early rifles and that's an experience in triggers lemmetell you or I'd bet he has. Double action pistol training is a good way to gain control. If you can pick up a out of the box S&W or Colt handgun and cycle the cylinder 6 holes in 3 seconds or less without having the hammer fall on the chamber you have pretty fair control. You will be able to shoot Ak's Mini-14s and almost HK 91's without impairing your accuracy. IF you feel your trigger constantly needs improvment you probably have a trigger control (mental) problem. Have you noticed that you set your trigger in the shop and it feels fine then when you get to the range you can't believe how much harder it is. Discover the problem by looking in the mirror! Practice is the key.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 15:30:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Could someone supply me with contact info for the manufacturer of the Slope Doper? I could also use an opinion on the Shilen match barrels marketed by Brownells. Use on a long range(max 600 yards-long for me!) rem 700 sa in .308. Thanks.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 16:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36)

Triggers,
Well someone has to take the other side of this argument, I guess that duty falls upon me.
I have no problemo, with recomendations of a 3.5 lb pull on a tactical rifle. I only wish that some of my milsurps were that light.
I have some that are close to 10 lbs. Yet, they pose no handicap when shooting from a solid bench rest position. Now, the snipers on this sight scoff at bench rest shooting yet they employ every device known to man to achieve benchrest stability in field conditions. Cheating SOB's, every one of them. It is when one does not have that stable platform that a light trigger can be of some help provided one spends a goodly amount of time practicing with a light trigger from non stable shooting positions. I know a few guys that could clean house with nothing more than a flintlock rifle at say, 100 yards offhand, because of the balance of these long-barreled rifles and the set triggers that they use. I have personally witnessed 2 inch 10 shot groups all in the 10 ring done with open sights. Try that with a 14 lb tactical rifle and a 3.5 lb trigger sometime.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.12)

Bill,

Here is the address on the side of my Slope Doper,

D.P. Rolls
RT 1 Box 128R
Burlington, WV 26710

I bought mine from Hugo at T.R.G.T., ( www.trgt.com )

Kush out!
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.32)

I saw a rifle in my local gun store this weekend that I am interested in purchasing. I have also seen it advertised in Shotgun News. I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with the SPRINGFIELD SAR-8 (.308) rifle
(H & K 91 copy). I don't know if this is the same Springfield Armory that makes handguns and used to make a SAR-8 rifle. The receiver, is stamped Springfield and also stamped Minnesota. I'm not looking for "sniper" type accuracy, just a fun rifle to shoot. Any information that could be provided about quality, accuracy, and reputation of the manufacturer would be appreciated.

K. Long

E-mail chewie@srv.net

K. Long <chewie@srv.net>
Idaho, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 23:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.7.221.51)

Have to agree on the 3.5 trigger pull. This rookie never paid attention to it until last year. Had my PSS set to 3.5 and it is perfect for me. In fact my smith told me that unless I agreed to not use it in the field he would not set it less than 3.5. Thanks to Lito's and other contributer's directions, gGoing to set all my hunting Rem's at 3.5 when I get around to it, all by my self.

I think anything less than 3.5 carries diminishing returns. If you have to worry about dropping the hammer before you want it to it is too light and you are wasting concentration. I tried the 3.5 with very cold, dang near frost bit hands and could still feel it well.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.42.52)

!!!!!!WANTED!!!!!!
$100 cash paid to any person that can offer a genuine, blank Ft. Benning U.S Army Sniper School Certificate, circa 1994 type. current issue may still be the same, this is acceptable too. a view of a scanned image will be required before purchase.
Thank You.

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:12:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

CEASE FIRE!!

Certificate Seeker. Pound sand!!

Only reason this guy wants this certificate is to generate bogus credentials.

If you are a genuine graduate of the Benning course you contact them and get what you need.

Special Forces my ass!! Dude you're on the wrong website for this shit.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

WOW! I never thought that I would get such a response for such an innocent request. Sorry that you feel that way, but in no way am I phony. I understand your caution. I indeed was a member of the Green Berets. My MOS was 18C, Special Forces Engineer Sargeant. I just finished in '96. I graduated from the Ft. Benning Sniper School in Nov. of '94. One of my trainers who I had a really good relationship with was Sgt. Burundi Davis who I am having a hard time getting in contact with to help me out with this matter. Unfortunately I had a flood last summer in my basement and a lot of photos and other papers got damaged, including my certificate. Fortunately my other diplomas were upstairs on my wall. I have been to and placed numerous calls to Benning and I'm told if it was within the last year or two then it would be easier to track down, seeing that it was six years ago, it is more difficult, I'm told. I just can't fight with them anymore.
At any rate, what more do i have to say. I'm sorry for the inconvience. I just figured that someone could help me out.
I really thought the whole military was family. I guess you really see the truth once you become a civilian again and just need a simple favor done.
Adam.

Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

Certificate Seeker Info:

Dude!...you are asking for a load of trouble....

You are comming into the Internet from:

C:\>tracert 216.67.76.205

Tracing route to nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms host1.hunters.org [207.233.164.1]
2 10 ms 20 ms 10 ms s3-3-1.crva001.volocom.net
3 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms s2-0.crva003.volocom.net
4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 166.90.148.89
5 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms gigaethernet5-ashington1.Level3.net [
6 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms so-6-0-0.mp1.Washington1.level3.net [
7 140 ms 241 ms 30 ms so-0-0-0.mp1.Weehawken1.level3.net
8 20 ms 30 ms 20 ms so-3-0-0.mp2.Weehawken1.level3.net
9 20 ms 20 ms 30 ms so-1-0-0.mp1.NewYork1.level3.net
10 50 ms 60 ms 130 ms 216.67.13.138
11 60 ms 60 ms 81 ms nyc2-r1-boston.navipath.net
12 60 ms 71 ms 90 ms nas9.boston.navipath.net [216.67.0.9]
13 371 ms 370 ms 351 ms nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]

Most likely from the boston area - since dns naming that is done these days reflects equipment location too..

Navipath.net looks like your ISP....

Registrant:
NaviPath, Inc. (NAVIPATH2-DOM)
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US

Domain Name: NAVIPATH.NET

Administrative Contact:
Investigations, Abuse (IA1764-ORG) abuse@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hostmaster, NaviPath (HN2394-ORG) hostmaster@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- - 978-933-6201
Billing Contact:
Billing, Domain (BD3887-ORG) billing@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201

Record last updated on 07-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 11-Feb-2001.
Record created on 11-Feb-2000.
Database last updated on 20-May-2000 06:08:39 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS.NAVINET.NET 216.67.14.5
DNS2.NAVINET.NET 216.67.31.254

They would probably not appreciate what you're doing.

More info if needed....

Ken :()

Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

If you are who you say you are then you would know why you're getting hammered on this.

You'll be checkd out.

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

OK sports fans Sarge needs some help. Am looking for good prices on Black Hills .308 168 gr match NON-moly,I know I can get Gold Medal from Hoplite for $320 something but I want to try Black Hills if the price is right. And a Camelback - the Storm model. If you have good prices on these items please e-mail me.

THANKS

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.173)

Whoa Ken......I am impressed. I have little idea of what you said but I think it's not too positive for "searcher."
There is a sniper site that debunks and exposes frauds and wannabe's. (general statment, no offense meant to anyone or insinuations made) Makes for real interesting reading. It's STA 2-23 and it's at geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/2102/frame.html, I think! When it comes to exposing these guys, he is a pit bull. I wouldn't want him on butt, no siree.
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Texas 77338, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:59:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.109.123)

Just a quick FYI. A Brit by the name of Bill Davison has opened and place West of Ft.Worth/Dallas call Tac Pro Shooting Center. I have not yet had a chance to go out there and see it first hand hand, but I have been told by more than one person that Mr. Davison is putting together a First Class operation. I did spend a dime and give him a call last week and he seems to be a nice guy. He has started out with the Royal Marines and ended as an instructor with the SAS. Tac PRO has a finished rifle range out to 1000 yards and are in process of completing a covered 25 yard range and classrooms. Shoot House and other fun stuff are in the works. Tac Pro is set up for Military/LE and Civilian alike. Basic/Intermidiate/Advanced Pistol, tactical Shotgun, Precision Rifle, Carbine and Subgun, with SWAT, CQB, Sniper and VIP Protection availble to Military/LE.
I'm thrilled that I can get to a real "long range" within an hour and can quite mowing my father-in-laws "back 40" to shoot.

Tac Pro Shooting Center- Bill Davison
35100 North State Hwy. 108
Mingus, TX 76463-6405
254/968-3112
254/968-5857 fax
tacpro@eaze.net

Frank, if Joe has said anything to you yet, I'll drive.
JFW

Jack <jackwilson@anglefire.com>
Ft. Worth, Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 04:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.65.177)

Certificate seeker,
I know most of the instructors during the time you are asking about. i didn't get stationed at Benning until Feb '95, but almost everyone was still there. Give me more details and info that adds up and maybe I can help. What was your class number? Who was the NCOIC, who were some of the other instructors? Talk to me about week one. Make me really believe that you were there and earned the certificate and maybe I can make some calls. Other wise, I have to agree whole-heartedly with the others.

PS. My diploma is sitting on the wall right next to me.

Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 04:11:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.197.99)

K.Long :

Regarding the Springfield SAR-8, here is the sitrep :

There are 2 types of SAR-8's; pre-ban and the post-ban versions.

Pre-Ban :
Wholy manufactured in Greece by the same company that supplies the Greek armed forces, called "EBO", which is also stamped on the receiver itself. That rifle's receiver is stamped steel WITHOUT an integrated weaver scope mount. Rifle manufactured by original HK tooling and it is as close to an HK as you can get without paying over $2500 for a used original HK-91. It also has a muzzle break at the end which serves nothing but cosmetic purposes since it is installed about 2 inches before the end of the barrel and the break's end is flush with the barrel crown. Those rifles come with a sporter stock and it is quite illegal to replace it with the pistol grip for they were made 100% in a foreign country. Price ranges : NIB-$1500, 90%-99% condition at $1200. Both figures ballpark. Damn good piece of equipment and no longer in production.

Post-Ban (like the one you are describing) :
Three words for you on this version of the rifle - Aluminium alloy receiver. Although majority of parts still manufactured in Greece with the same exact specs as German HK's, the receiver and several pieces in the trigger assembly are manufactured in the US. Receiver is manufactured by Hesse Arms in St Paul, MN (www.hessearms.com) and it is a butt ugly piece of crap that heats up fast, bends and after a little while and the bolt carrier instead of being guided by the grooves in the receiver, will end up banging against them. This is the flat-top model with the integrated weaver scope mount. If you pay more than $900 for this, you are being robbed. My suggestion would be to stay away from it.

Both rifles have a stainless steel barrel but the huge drawback on both is that in both cases, it is button rifled.

Even with the pre-ban model, to achieve anything close to true sniper quality performance, you would have to remove the front sight (it is clamped on the barrel), change the barrel altogether (price variable), change the trigger assembly to a PSG-1 type (about $450), install an MSG-90 style forearm guard at a bargain price of about $800 and finally weld in reinforcement rods in the side external grooves on the sides of the receiver to increase receiver rigidity.

Oh, and an HK-style, copy claw mount for a scope made by A.R.M.S. will run you at about $220 (original HK runs at about $350, all prices ballpark).

Got cash ?

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 06:51:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)

Certificate seeker,
Just one year ago I wrote to the U. S. Army Ordnance Center and School at APG, Md to get my certificate for their Small Arms Repair Course because I never got mine back in January of 1991 because I missed graduation because I was too busy gettiing ready to go to Saudi Arabia, after a short stop at Benning. After I wrote to them, I had my certificate in about 2 or 3 months even though it was 8 years later. No run around, just the normal wait for paperwork.
Eric <Roody5150@aol.com>
Cabot, Pa, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 09:21:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.162)

Thank You Thomas and Eric for at least offering me a chance to explain myself. In my opinion that previous attack was completely unnecessary, at least not in that context. But everyone does have the right to free speech so I don't condemn I just offer sympathy. I can understand being cautious. Believe me, I know what it's like to really earn something and I would not want someone that has never remotely experienced such intense training and gratification that comes from my previous fields, to even roam this world posing as one of us. well enough of that. you wanted some further details so here goes:
I graduated class 01-95 in Nov '94. Two other instructors that come to mind are SSG Charles Olsen and SSG Broseus. Upon entering Benning I was required to meet at Harmnony Church where the school headquarters is, building 4882. If I can divide up the five week course accurately down to the first week the main thing that comes to memory is familiarity with the M24 SWS, the M3, and the M118 ammo and beginning of suit construction. My graduating class was of 17, originally 24. I have to admit, I came very close to failing on the memory test. I just couldn't remember for the life of me the blank adapter I saw amongst all the confusion, but it came to me.
All in all, I didn't think this whole process was going to be this involved. I truly thought message boards were there to help, but my initial impression was not pleasing at all, honestly I do feel a little violated having my IP address traced like that for doing absolutely nothing wrong. My final conclusion is that I will probably take the long trip back home to Columbus (I'm in Boston right now watching over my grandmother) and go to Benning again. Eric's success has giving me some hope to try at it again.
Thank You Thomas and Eric for your replies, they are much appreciated.
Adam.
Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 10:17:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.74.248)

Oh No! A pedigree thread!! Certificate Seeker, you better unass the AO. On 2nd thought this could be fun. On FAL Files, a guy was claiming to be Airborne Ranger, he got his rear handed to him. It was kind of comical.
Just sign me, A Lowly Airborne Grunt. No dope on a rope, No Q course, did go to RIP, didn't like it!! No sniper cert.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 10:25:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.119.202)

Pablito,
Thanks for the e-mail reply, that explains everything. Much appreciated!
Hoooah!
Adam
Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 11:44:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.76.227)

SSG Charles Olsen is gone but SSG Broseus is still there (at least as of 3 months ago). He has been trying to leave for 3 years but they won't let him leave.

Try emailing them at sniperschool@benning-emh2.army.mil or calling them at (706) 545-6006 / 6985, ask for SSG Broseus and explain. You would be surprised that he might remember you, which would help tons. I stay in loose contact with him and if I need something, he is the one I contact. They should be starting another class on sunday, so this week would be your best chance to have them dig through back paperwork. You might also try faxing them if you can't get them on the phone (which is sometimes very hard) at (706) 545-6693. Do you still have your orders? If you do then that would be all they need to reissue a certificate without looking to hard.

Glad you understand why you got jumped on so fast. You would be surprised at some of the crazy people that would buy a certificate and then get someone killed because of their lack of training. I get requests for certificates for our classes from police officers all the time. They sometimes confuse friendship with weakness or stupidity.

Good luck. Thomas

Adam <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 14:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.197.99)

buying sniper certificates ????

thats like buying a Doctors title, I guess everything goes if the price is right.

But who would want to buy a sniper certificate ??? a Helo Pilot licence, OK, but a sniper certificate, I mean the job sucks ! You get lonly, cold, starved, eaten up, etc. Who would want to pay for that ????

:- )

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 15:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.119)

All:

Youn'z out there that have me as: ken@aspire.net

Please change that email address to: ken@hunters.org

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 16:02:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

I can see only three reasons for wanting the certificate in question, and my unqualified responses:

1) Person is a collector of military memorabilia.
For a collector, it may make sense to ask as he will probably have a difficult time finding one. But there are reasons that you can't find them. Would anyone who has completed the training in question even consider it an option to sell a genuine certificate (blank or otherwise)? See reason 2 above for a BIG reason why they are scarce.

2) Person is trying to "create a background
I personally have not been there or done that (the training), but I have too much respect for those that have to ever pretend that I did. In this case he deserves to be used as UKD mover target. He can learn first hand about that which he seeks to pretend.

3) He is what he claim.
Once he has proven to your satisfaction that he is truly "one of you", help him out.

I gather that this is basically what was told to certificate seeker via e-mail.

Ken, I like the posting of the trace. The idiots out there hiding behind the "anonymity of cyberspace" have no idea how quickly they can be found, or that there is no real way to hide.

You leave footprints every where you go, mud, snow, cyberspace, etc. all it takes is someone that knows how to track you.

Sorry this is so long, but I never thought I would see something from my new career posted on this site.

Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
trying to remember how I shot awful, hand so well last year, maybe practice more., USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 16:42:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.57)

(Questions about cheek rests)

I have a custom Remington 700 with a McMillan A1 stock. I've found the comb is not high enough for me to get a proper sight picture in the scope. I am considering either getting a cheek rest, or getting a different stock (such as the McMillan A3 or A4). What are the pros and cons of each option?

How stable are the add-on cheek pieces? The only ones I know of are from Blackhawk, and they have two kinds: a tie-down version that has a fixed height, and another version with cinch straps but adjustable height by adding spacers. Are there other ones I should research? How much do they slip around and move on the stock, how durable are they in the field, etc.?

If I decide to get a new stock with adjustable cheek piece and length of pull, then what are the pros and cons of this option? How repeatable are the settings, how fragile are the moving pieces, etc.? How does H-S compare with McMillan? Any other considerations?

I don't get to check the Duty Roster as often as I'd like, so I'd appreciate if you'd please e-mail responses to me in addition to posting to the roster.

Thanks,
B. Melick

B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
Dallas, TX, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 17:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.97.67.7)

Back to the trigger question:

I have a hunting rifle (Ruger M77 MkII) with a 2 1/2 pound stock trigger. This is just right for bench work, but just a bit light for hunting, especially when wearing gloves. A 3 lb trigger would be better, and a 3 1/2 pound trigger also acceptable. Both are a far cry from the 8 lb, 2 pieces of sandpaper POS that it came with.

Strangely (or not), a 2 stage trigger can have a better trigger at a heavier weight than a single stage. I probably don't need to say why. How many people here would use a two stage trigger on a sniper rifle?

Anyway, trigger weights between 2 1/2 and 5 lbs are acceptable in my very humble opinion. A crisp 8 lb trigger is better than a 3 1/2 pound sandpaper job.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 17:26:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Just an inquiring mind with some difficult decisions ahead,

I have a question for you legitimate snipers out there. If you were to start over again courier wise knowing what you do now, would you still become a sniper? Is the calling strong enough to draw you into the field again, or would you strive for something else?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Ryan <fly_lloyd@hotmail.com>
Kelown, British Columbia, Canada - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 19:03:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.65.9.152)

Certificate Seeker: Damm Dude, read your first post before you get pissed at how the guys responded. You sounded like a phony. Dont offer to pay for what you should get. Call up there and talk with someone. Write a letter explaining what happened. Spell "Sargent" Sergeant like most of the US. I may be wrong but I thought the US Army spelled Sergeant the same way the US Police Departments did. I being a Sergeant know how to spell my title. If I could only learn to spell LT. LOL Seriously if you are for real good luck. If Not E.S.and D.

Sarge, if you need help in the Black Hills ammo department give me a call.

Sniper stocks, Dude it depends on what stock feels best to shoot with. You can use an Eagle Stock Pad to raise the comb.
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 19:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

I have a "Weather Equipment Maintenance Technician" School Graduation certificate, circa 1989, that I'll sell.
In all sincerity, won't your DD Form 214 reflect your attendance at the school in question? Mine, with an accompanying RIP, has every half-baked class I was cut orders for. Unless you're building an "I Love Me" wall, that should be credential enough.
By the way, why don't people lie about being an electronics/comm squad weenie. At least we had chicks at work. Ask me about my basic training injury sometime.
Jim <certificate seller@ebay.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 20:46:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.8.126)

A blank sniper certificate?

How's this:

Student Records
United States Army Infantry Center and School
Fort Benning, Georgia 31905

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 22:01:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Out shooting today - M4 and bolt gun - you should see the bullet drop on the 77gr Sierra from a M4 at 600 (nasty) the ACOG reticle is pretty close to the C77 (SS109) ball but the 77gr is about 2 feet below that.
Think I'll keep it for a full-length gun and save the ball for the M4.
-- I guess the moral is don't bring a squirrel gun to a long gunfight.

Ken -- Jeez that's scary, I thought I was gloriously anonymously surfing those porn sites (LOL)

Mike - We spell Sergeant that way too! -- You guys just don't know how to pronounce Lieutenant.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 23:30:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.74)

ACCURACY;
First off let me say that I am not in LE nor the mil. but I do understand accuracy and this is just my opinion. We all like our rifles to shoot one hole groups but it is not needed for most applications but this is my opinion as to what accuracy is needed for LE and the Mil. snipers.
I read all the time about someones one MOA rifle and they think it is good enough and it is for the games/shoots we play but for real LE sniper I think that if you are going to use a rifle for a sniper rifle it should be capable of 1/2" or less. What if you get into a situation with a hostage and a low life behind the hostage. You will be shooting at a very small area of his head "WITH NO ROOM FOR ERROR" and you need that 1/2" or less rifle at that moment not that one MOA rifle. The same thing would apply to someone in the Mil. with only head shots available. A one MOA rifle would work if all you had to shoot at were torsos but that is not the real world.
You can buy this kind of accuracy but it is useless unless the person be it LE or Mil. does not practice, practice, and practice some more. The more practice one gets the more confident one gets and confidence itself will do more to improve accuracy than the best rifle one can buy. You will know that if you have to take a shot you can do it right the first time.
I think if someone takes on the job of being a sniper then he should be dedicated enough to be out practicing as much as he can or he should not take the job and have a rifle that is capable of 1/2" or less as his life and the life of others depend on his abilty to perform his job when needed. Nothing beats trigger time and a good rifle.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 23:29:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.102.110)

ACCURACY; (it beats the hell out of certificates!)

I agree, and disagree with Jerry Rice (maker of very fine < .5" rifles).

Last year, two "SWAT" officers were at the local range, sighting in their new .308 PSS's with new Lupitas. They set up full face "perp" targets, and after much fuss, both shot 3" groups on the nose of the perp targets, said they were ready for "The Match!", and left.

If you want to take a hostage, go to Cheshire CT... you are perfectly safe ;)

Most LE don't have the skill to be a consistant 1/2" shooter, even from a bench, and surely not from a "tactical position". And the price of a 1/2" rifle is wasted on them.
In any case, where the difference would be made between 1" and 1/2" rifle in a LE situation, they won't get a "Go" if the target is that small... hell, they don't get "Go" when the target is standing in the open... the politics are currently such that they don't need all the cool stuff they have.

There is an amazing amount of self confidence built when shooting a fine 1/2" rifle, and watching that black spot on the target stay pretty much the same... and once you've done that, the lesser rifles just don't do it.
But the training time, and the practice time wouldn't be covered by most departments. The guys in my town, considered their weapons as just so much baggage, unless they were doing traffic stops. They had no interest in inproving shooting skills.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 00:19:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Lito-
I tyake exception to your comments.....unless you are talking about the highway patrol;)
Guys you have to check out this news article
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2000/05/item20000520151055_1.htm

And you thought the US military had it bad!!!!!

Mictac <Mictac@AOL.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 00:50:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.206)

Mictac

"I tyake exception to your comments..."
Hey Mictac Dude... no mor badd spelen on thes syte!!

I heard about them having to say "Bang bang" on the rifle range, but didn't believe it... the worst part is:

"However, a Royal Navy spokesman says live firing is no longer necessary, and the forces have to provide value for money."

What value... as targets, while the new Rooskies teach their kids in school how to use AK's and grenades... I'll bet the Rooskies are getting "full value!!"

Hey guys... if we say "Bang bang, clang clang", at the sniper match, do we get full score for two hits, or just one?

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 01:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

On accuracy:
Jerry, with all due respect, I don't care how well a rifle can shoot (within reason), it's ME that I need to improve ;-)
Really though, if I could hold 1 MOA from a field position or at range, I'd be a WAY happy shooter.
But on such subjects, seems that my darling M-25 is on her way home. To give her a "try out", my smith (DC8, any time you're in this part of the country, you've got all the free beer and steak you can handle!) handed it out from the weapons support van to a passing sailor (friend) and he shot a 196 11X with it. He says the spindle is enclosed in the starlight case. That definately is better than I could do, and gives me something legitimate to aspire to. Mike, you've got your work cut out for you!

Now for the odd part. He says that Kreiger barrels tend to shoot BETTER after they've "seasoned" with 500 rounds or so. Any takers on this one? And with ammo, haven't tried this yet, so thought I would ask the experts if I'm gonna be wasting my time, is there a big difference in loading the bullet 10 thousandths or so off the lands and going another 40 thousandths so they fit in the mag AND feed?

Oh, and while I'm at it, does anyone have a blank SOTIC certificate I could get for under $20? JUST JOKING!!! Really cert seeker, dunno who you are, but if you're for real, hope you have lots of luck.

Kevin of the North: I'll ditto that comment to Ken. HAHA!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
I'm in Utah, no, really, in Utah, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 01:25:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)

Pablito: shouting Bang!

I guess ever so often - a comrade should clap his hands loudly once or twice near the ear of a nearby comrade. That way the near by comrade can shout MISSED!!! back at a 'virtual sniper'

Ken
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Pablito: followup....

I guess they're training - just how they will fight in their next conflict...

Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:25:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Kevin isn't it true that all Canadian officers are Left-tenants? Don't they mean they all smoke with their left hand? I'm confused here.
I guess Mike has to say GANG BANG Clang Clang! Bein from LA and all. Still confused with Sniper Terminology out chere.

You guys just dazzle me with all this stuff!
Shootin Half minutes? Lord the worst Redneck I know can get off a shot in less time than that

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

And now a question for the armorers out there. I was told that my '25 was bedded the "Marine way". What's the difference between the Marine way, Navy way, and Army way? Other than the extra 500 round expectancy I was told?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)

'yote bate...
Jeez, us sheep chasin shooters don't get no respect! Hell I'kin get offin a shot in half a minute... well, sometimes.

Ken...
They're practicing for the next desert war... they'll just fly over Bagdad, and say Boom, boom, and save all that ordance money.
The way Klinton is going, we shouldn't laugh, we may be saying "Bang, bang" soon, we've used up all the good stuff, and there's no money to replace it (but he spent it for the kids!!)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:46:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

AR question here - anyone know where to locate the metal israeli "desert" clips to double a 16 mag?

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:47:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)

Pablito, I hate to be the guy that brings the bad news but LE Snipers can and do shoot very small groups. I can talk from experience teaching them and being one for too long. I hold my students to 1moa to 300 yards as a passing score. Most shoot to the capability of a PSS 1/2-3/4moa and better with better rifles. Ask Jerry what size groups I have been shooting everytime I go out. Where LE Guys fail is distance and reading the wind. You may have just happened on a few chuckle heads. I never want to be limited to a rifles capability so I get the best I can. If I make a bad shot I want to know it was me and not the rifle. Take out all the varibles possible and have few excuses. I prefer to hit what I aim instead of saing "That F,,,,, Rifle" You can not polish a turd! I used to shoot PSS's as they came from the factory but never more. Jerry you ruined me.

Kevin we mostly call Lt's by different names. I can not say them here. You agree Mike T? By the way I here he can shoot also. I would not tick him off. I made him a cuff based on my arm and he asked for a bigger one. Modeled that one off of mt stepsons thigh(about 21")

Good night all
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:49:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.27)

SO do your LOO-tenants spend their time in the can?
Kevin <lkevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:51:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)

Brav; Don't forget the cowboy way!
Lito'; Hope they got trigger locks on them nukes! Wouldn't want cousin Bill playin with em lest they do!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:51:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

- LE shooters - well you should have watched the World P&F games in Calgary in '97. The sniper event had some interesting results - the 100m mover, in a bus - Well anyway those who did hit, weren't to impressive. (the Argentinan Federal Police guy forgot to take his safety off)
So I figure hostage takers are pretty safe as long as not in your neck of the woods Mike.
P.S. I can run faster scared, than you can mad (LOL)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:58:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)

Mike...
I hate to be the guy that brings you the bad news... but nost of the LE around the country aren't your students... the people on this site, and their students, are people that care about, and follow the "art".
This is a site for those that march to a different drummer.

The average LE, in Podunk, has little interest, and the average town council has less.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 09:44:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.93)

LOL, Kevin thanks for making me laugh. I've never heard somebody speak words that were more true than those. Guess I got chased a lot as a kid. Perhaps that explains why sheepies are so hard to catch?
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 09:46:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.93.37)

Music for Snipers to reload by, check out epictouch.com click on
country music. Besides it'll scare hell out of those geeks in there
when they see you all connected. No money changes hands just good
pickin!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 12:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Pablito/Kevin, many reasons for a sub 1/2moa rifle exist. One is the true potential of a rifle and shooter combination is the adding of the shooters capability and the rifles capability. If you add a 1moa shooter to a 1moa rifle you get a 2moa group. If you add a 1/2moa rifle to a 1moa shooter you have a 1.5moa group. At 200 yards the difference is 3 or 4moa and thats a difference that is significant.

As to what and who knows about LE Snipers. I have been doing this weekly for many years. Recently I shot a 5" group at 1000 yards from a mud puddle. I have shot many groups under .25moa (including one five shot group under .10 moa) at shorter ranges. I have gone to countless shooting events and met much better group shooters than me. Granted most of these event have taken place in Calif, but I do not think us city bread boys can do any better than the guys that grew up with rifles in trucks. When I was at the Carlos Shoot I met several PD Shooters that could best most guys on the DR antday. Autugua (Spelling?) Arms had a guy from a Fla. PD that was a very good shot. Old Dep. Dave is a fair shot and would give most of you a run for the money. Last I looked he worked in as close to Podunk as possible. Well actually Podunk is the County Seat he works in a much smaller place.

Kevin, Worl Police and Fire Games in Canada. Well dude, most of the guys that go to that are looking for a vacation. Friend of mine went whi is not a sniper, never was, and borrowed a rifle there to shoot with. Too big a hassle to get one from here into the country. Come down here and I will show you some shooters.

I know your intentions are great but LE can shoot.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 15:20:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.59)

Mike it wasn't meant as a flame. My point is that in both Mil and LE the percentage of shooters is relatively low. A lot of reserve units, up here, beat the reg force teams - due to the shooting comitment (but don't ask the reserves to go out in the cold -LOL). Worse off at a lot of events we would get beat by Medics and other non-combat arms. --Reason most people on the teams were looking for a party not a serious competition.

Total agreeance on getting the best rifle you can (Don't need anymore handycaps than I give myself already)

And as far as people beating me goes - hey every weekend some civie kicks my ass and makes me relearn humility (a local LE won this weekends service rifle)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 15:35:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.163)

Interesting discussion you boys got going there, but I've found it don't make much difference what hat a fella wears or what paycheck he
draws or what hangs on his wall. It's how dedicated he is to puttin em all in the same hole. Same for stalkers and fighters, and wild bull riders when it gets down to it. Mike, it tells me more about you as a shooter when you say you laid in a mud hole and shot when you didn't have too than the size of your group. A rifle that will shoot will do a lot for man's spirit however.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:02:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

To lito, Bravo, Kevin and all;
As I said a person that takes on the job of sniper and all that goes with it should be dedicated to that job or he should not take it. It is an awsome responsibility and not to be taken lightly and that person should have the best equipment avaliable and practice, practice, practice until he is as good as his equipment and keep practicing to maintain that edge. A miss can be more harmfull than a shot not taken, just look at Sacramento, CA a few years ago when a miss caused the low life to go on a killing spree and a year or two ago I think it was in AL where the sniper shot the hostage. This kind of crap should not happen and would not happen if they were truely "TRAINED" snipers with good equipment.
And to all Mike Miller can shoot extremely well but that comes from practice to maintain that abilty.
Again just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.192.146)

Jerry...

Your two cents? Yup...

I think we all agree on the need for good training, good attitude/desire, and good equipment... and the price society pays for the lack of any one of them.

Mike...
We know you're a California type, but please, this year, no Blond ghillie suit in W.Va.!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.8)

Mike & lito'
Your both right and wrong, unfortunately not all LE snipers take it as serious as they should. Sometimes its the officers fault and sometimes its the departments fault. I have seen some damn fine shots in the LE game and some really poor ones and they both fill the same job. A good place to see a cross section is to go to a match that caters to both military style shooting and LE type shooting. The match in Nebraska that Hornady put on last year was this way. In the precision shooting the LE types excelled and in the long range shooting the military boys did well. I think part of it was equiptment and part of it is the experience in wind reading, as Mike pointed out. I have been to several schools in LE shooting where it was shocking to see how unprepared some of these guys were. Not critcizing anyone now, but part of the problem I have seen is guys are sent to LE sniper schools and everybody passes no one fails!! They give everyone and "Attendance" certificate. I think it has to do with the newrer kinder society where we won't feel like a failure if some hard nose throws our ass out because we can't cut the mustard. At my last school, that was put on by the State Patrol, the instructor told a couple of us over a beer one night, how he was criticized for being to "Hard" on the students and actually had yelled at some of them. He was then told by the company he worked for, to back off, he wasn't in the USMC anymore. Sad to say this is more the norm anymore.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 19:31:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

If you buy a hunting rifle such as a remington 700 or winchester 70 are there heavy target barrels that you can purchase and put on the rifle? Also is there any difference between a 24" barrel vs. a 26" barrel for 7mm mag and .300 win mag?
ken <lynneh@ccpl.carr.org>
Westminster, MD, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.150.97.33)

Pab, you slay me. Blonde it was because we have no green here. Green it is because that is what I needed in WV. Alas I wont make it this year but if anyone needs a ready painted ghille.LOL Where the heck are you going to eat? The best place closed down.

Kevin no flames taken. I get my but kicked by civies also. You shouls shoot High Power against the Sharks at Sac.

Pat, I quit teaching impact weapons because I had a few students gets hurt and the Admin said "Cant you teach them to fight without contact?" Enough said

Training is everything
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

top gun usass 04-00
Pete <snipero974@excite.com>
ft campbell, ky, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.252.94.47)

News from Autauga RIfles. If any of you military snipers wish to compete in the European Super Sniper Shootout in Austria at the end of August the owner of Autauga will pay your entry fee's/room/board. You have to get there yourself (take a hop).

If you are interested contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 21:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.179)

When speaking of LE snipers and their accuracy, I'm sure that most recall that news video clip that showed the LE sniper shoot a pistol out of a mans hands who had threatened to kill himself. I don't know the details of the shot, range, cal and so on but I do recall that the bullet was not a standard copper jacket/lead core. I think it was some sort of composite compound like mag-safe. Do you think this was a "lucky" shot or a man who was dedicated to his trade? Which ever it was it raised a lot of eyebrows and dropped a lot of jaws.

The way prices have been going up on reloading components I'm just about ready to go to the range and shout "bang" too!!!!!

Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 22:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.109.15)

Jerry- not to "flame" you....(not the least because you are building my new rifle!!!) but the two scenarios you mention have certain problems.
The first one (Sacramento /Good Guys store)brought home a lesson and much needed new information that I won't go into here.Yeah there was a problem...but nobody knew about it before. Undude- back me up on this if you can.
The second one(Alabama hostage shooting)is the product of bad information. The truth of that scenario only came out last year. I personally spoke to the man who took that shot and what happened.
In a nutshell, the news media were wrong (shocking huh?).

MicTac <MicTac@AOL.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:01:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.199)

Darn- got too excited and hit the wrong button. Back to the Alabama shooting for those who are interested. If not, skip over this.
The sniper had a shot at the bad guy holding a gun on one young female and surrounded by another. They were moving towards a car. The sniper had a shot and took it. The bullet entered the bad guys chest on the side and blew his heart out. NOW THE WEIRD STUFF> the bullet then took a right angle 90 degree turn and hit the poor female standing in front of the bad guy. Yep-you read correctly the bullet entered straight into the guys side and came out of the guys chest 90 degrees off from where the entrance hole was. The local ME couldn't figure out this had happened, saw the girl with the bullet hole and figured the guy shot the wrong target. Understandable since the bad guy twitched and the rest of the team made him very dead. It took Martin Fackler ( I believe) the famous MD to track the event. This poor guy went through hell for his "miss". I was told...by a lot of hunter types...that the bullet on their game has been known to follow rib cages after penetrating. I don't know if that is a possible explanation or bull..
The was a police policy problem here too....the guy was prohibited, at that time, from headshots.
BTW Jim D- that shot, in all actually, is a very very lucky day for the bad guy and is severly frowned upon by enlighted police. Someone in Washington state merely switched hands and completed the deed last year too. Other MAJOR concerns also.
UNdude- another word for Lt...hmm usually three or four letters right?
Sounds like dumb **** or *** kisser? Well guys, sorry for the long winded post.

MicTAc <MicTac@AOl.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.199)

If you buy a hunting rifle such as a remington 700 or winchester 70 are there heavy target barrels that you can purchase and put on the rifle?

--------------------------------

That is certainly one approach to the problem, but one that often presents its own complications. First, there are any number of barrels on the market that can be fitted to a 700 Remington with relativly little trouble (note the
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:28:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

buy a hunting rifle such as a remington 700 or winchester 70 are there heavy target barrels that you can purchase and put on the rifle?

--------------------------------

That is certainly one approach to the problem, but one that often presents its own complications. First, there are any number of barrels on the market that can be fitted to a 700 Remington with relativly little trouble (note the "relativly"...I'll get back to that in a moment). These range from the fairly inexpensive such as ER Shaw barrels and the Shilen tubes that Brownells sells for under $200 all the way up to a custom-fitted Krieger or Hart. Some of the higher-end makers make "prefitted" barrels buit I note that some do not. The Winchester model 70 dosent have nearly as many "prefitted" barrels avialable on the market, though any custom barrel maker should be able to fit one of their barrels to a Winchester action with no problems. So, you can get the barrel in just about any contour you want at prices ranging from about $130 uninstalled to $600+ expertly fitted.

The question is, what do you want to do and what sort of result do you desire? If you are looking to install a "prefitted" (prethreaded and short chambered) Remington barrel yourself you can certainly tool up to do it but the action wrench and barrel vice alone can run a couple of hundred dollars, then you get to buy a chamber reamer and headspace gauges. It can easlity cost $400 to get the basic tooling, which aint that bad if you forsee doing ten+ rifles but hard to justify if you are only looking to do one. Now, that is just to torque up a mass-produced barrel to a mass-produced reciever and set the correct headspace with no tweaking. Such a combination may shoot 1/4 MOA but there are still a number of varialbles that have not been elminated and can still keep you rifle from shooting to its full potential. It can beat 1 MOA in most cases and often a fair bit better (but then so will a factory 700VS/Sendero). Beyond that, a savvy home gunsmith can manage to pull some of the basic tricks like lapping the locking lugs to fit the reciever but *realy* fitting up a high-end barrel to an action requires a good lathe and considerable skill with it to precisoon chamber the barrel and then true the action and breech end of the barrel for a perfect fit. This is of course not practical for most folks, hell not even for most gunsmiths.(I'd about kill for even a cheap Chinese lathe at this point). When the guys on this list chatter on about their 1/4 MOA tack-drivers they are generaly either talking about rifles that have had the best barrels fitted by the best armorers or they are shooting rifles that they have lucked into that have no business shooting as well as they do and they know it. Elimination of the element of chance is what costs the big money. So, what do you want to do?

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Mike, Re: MOA+MOA=?
This might sound like nitpicking to some, but a 1 MOA shooter + a 1 MOA rifle does not equal a 2 MOA group. The correct answer would be a 1.4806816 MOA group. For a 1/2 MOA rifle and a 1 MOA shooter the correct answer would be a 1.17058 group. The difference between the 2 would be .3101 MOA or .649 inches at 200 yards.
Please don't ask me to explain this. Some Chineese guy with an abbacus figured this stuff out a long time ago.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 01:05:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.120)

Just read the Royal Navy story. Anyone remember the joke that ends "Tankity, tankity, tankity" ? Sound familiar?

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or., USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 01:12:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.13.4)

I think Mike made his point. WHile I moa = 1 moa might not equal 2 moa the point is that inaccuracy/accuracy adds up. The bottom line is that a 1/2 moa gun will help anyone to shoot better as the overall spread will be smaller. This is assuming that the sniper can GROUP. If the individual jerks, bucks, flinches, spanks the trigger etc then not much will help but getting his act together.

I dont know too many people that can shoot as well as their guns capability in "non-benchrest" type conditions.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 02:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.168)

I'm no sniper, so I guess I don't understand the term "spank the trigger". Is that like spanking a monkey, or does only a monkey spank a trigger? Count me solidly in the "very accurate rifle" consensus. That's why I had this thing built in the first place. No where for the blame to go except at the guy in the mirror. That having been said, I've seen a pretty cool shot taken at an antelope (ever try to sneak up on one of those? They got look outs!) with a virtually box stock wally world special. I wouldn't have done it myself (can't stand to wound game and then lose it), but a GOOD rifleman can astound and amaze without a bench.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Spanking something in the, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 04:21:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)

I hope this comes across right because I am in a poor mood.

Steve, wrong you are. I dont care what some guy wrote. A 1moa shooter plus a 1moa rifle equal an extreme spread of 2moa. That is what matters. You add the varibles and get to the extreme spread. We dont subtract for bullet diameter or holding our breath.

Pablito, I read your post again and I must say it is not your usual style. I would like to know how many LE Shooters you have shot againstor trained to get the idea we can not shoot. I know I can and that I am far from the exception. I played the Carlos Match back in my mind and LE did well. I remember being in the class shoot off and having Rusty take it from me after about thirty minutes, I believe third was a LE guy, man I wish I could remember his name. He was the real deal. I shot the actual match and did poorly by my standards and still managed a third individual. Most comps were either Mil or Civies. LE did well. I have also played the last twenty years back and have not found LE Snipers to be bad shots. A few have been fair but most are truly good for the 100-300 yard stuff. We limit them to about 200 for liabilty reasons and the fact that in most cases we can get closer. Why take a shot in your yard from the next town if you dont have to. Just because we shoot up close does not mean we can not shoot from a distance. Don't confuse that. I know your comments were not directed at me but we are a brotherhood and I take pride in my brothers. This is not to harp on you.

Mike T. Good guys had a few flaws I wont go into on an open board. One thing for sure is it was not an easy shot. Many guys can shoot small groups but when the poop hits the fan the groups go to poop on most.

I remeber a friend who was a hell of a pistol shot. He got into a shoot out in the middle of the street. Rounds going every where. Weapons smoking and when it was all over the only thing killed was an car 20 yards out of the way. No one here knows what you will do until the stuff flies.

Been shot did not like it. Had my patrol car shot. Not fun. Been cut about the same feeling. Not good. Seen guys shot with pistols did not work and had to knock one down after he had three rounds in him . Really did not like that one. Never shot anyone with my sniper rifle. Hope I dont have to and if I do I hope you guys dont find fault with my shooting. Hell of a responsibilty anyone that thinks we LE can not shoot want it?

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 04:23:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.56)

Kent - Jerks, Spanks, Flinches and Bucks? I think ya surfing some other sites :)

Mike don't forget ammo - sometime we tend to handicap ourselves further than we have to...Opened my eyes to that (again) shooting issue SS109 stuff (C77) then went to 77gr HSM - Same with 175gr .308 in the GM2 -compared to some other offerings.
Better ammo with better gun make me look better (or at least cuts out my excuses)

Have a good'er

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 05:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.136.124)

Mike,

Wow! Well said! It is kinda tough to follow up on a thread after your last message!
I know you are doing it to help humanity, cause they sure don't pay you enough for all that you do!
Thanks for reminding us that it is a little different going up against bad guys than opening up the trunk and sitting down at the bench and squeezing off a couple of rounds at a non-moving paper target!

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 05:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Greetings this is my first posting and would like to thank you guys for all the useful info and insite I've found so far. I'm a LEO in SoCal and have most of my exeriance with the .308 and .223. I just started "playing" with my new Rem 700VS 300 Win Mag and have been trying different handloads. I'm wondering if anyone has a handload they think is a good accuracy load for longer ranges (700+ yds). So far I have some good loads but haven't found the great load yet. Anyone willing to point the way will be apprieciated.

In regard to the LEO's shooting abilities I am compelled to comment. I found that most (not all) of the "snipers" in my county, well, suck to be kind. I must admit there are a few who are excellent at what they do. The sniper unit I spend most of my time around has all the high speed stuff you can think of and on any given day are lucky to keep a 2" group at the 100 yd line using .5 MOA capable rifles. I don't even want to talk about a cold bore shot or the fact they have no dope past the 100 yd line. I often out shoot them with my iron sights and when I use my 700 PSS no competition.

I have come to the conclusion that they have read too much Guns and Ammo stuff and believe their own propaganda. Trust me if you're taken hostage here stike a deal with the bad guy...or else. A quick test of a LEO sniper is to mention the longest firing range in area (over 100 yds)and see what their response is. If it's "where's that"? you have you answer.

OK, I'm off my soap box and thanks for any input on the 300 loads.
joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
san diego, ca, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 09:40:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.215.153.180)

We had a short range rifle meet here while back. The 2 winners were identical groups 10 shots in just under 1 1/4" at 200 meters. Cross wind 30 mph. One was a Electronic technician the other was a Respritory therapist by trade. 4th was a Farmer and 5th was LE if I remember correctly.
Does that prove anything. Not much, Generalities are dangerous and
I don't think anyone can say anything convinicing about any particular group of shooter. If there is an inference that someone has the secrets, I doubt it will hold up. Experience and personality are the key along with good eyes. With all this me and all the others are up to about a nickel or dime depending on what you think it's worth.
Me, hell I don't think my microphone is working but .... The only group I ever saw that are consistently good are the dedicated Prairie Dog hunters. We get lots of em in here. They pull trailers with their optiics and gear and crew served rifles. Big game hunters are the worst as a group with Antelope hunters being on top of the pile. Coyote hunters are the most versatile and the hardest to get to stay home on a bad day. They miss a lot but that's because the game they hunt has a higher IQ than they do. LE boys are mix of all of these around here. Some don't want to get their uniforms dirty and some are tougher than Leather, especially the game and fish people.
They are mostly all country boys out here with lots of hunting and shooting under their belt. Some can even honestly qualify with a hand
gun! Me, I don't have much use for a handgun...wasn't that what that feller Quigley said?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 12:30:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bill,
Well said!! It doesn't make any difference what you do or what your background is, if you want to be good at something and you devote the time and energy to it you will be good at it. Most damn good shooters put in a lot of range time pulling the trigger and they usually reload and they study ballistics because they want to know more about their chosen sport and how to become better at it. I think the reason the LE thing came up is because people "Expect" them to be able to shoot well and because of their job they are held to a higher standard because they may damn well have to pull the trigger on someone. Just like 'lito and others have said when "They" see someone who is in that positon and they can't shoot to the "Standard" we have set for ourselves it is upsetting to them. I have seen some military snipers who weren't exactly the cream of the crop either and as Bill said the average varmint hunter would shoot rings around him but does that mean they can't do their job, No it doesn't, its just that we hold him to a higher standard and we expect more from him because of his job. Like Mike said, there are a lot of damn tough LE snipers out there and you would be hard pressed to out shoot them from 100 to 200yds. granted many of them don't shoot past that range and I believe thats a mistake but thats not my call. I think if you can hit a target at 500yds on a regular basis the confidence is there when you need to shoot at a much shorter range even when under pressure.
I, like Mike and Jerry and probably the rest of you, want just as acccurate of a rifle as I can get. I want it to be way better than "ME" and if I have to spend hours neck turning cases to get the extra tenth, I will, because I demand the best from my equiptment and myself. The only person I worry about beating me is myself, if I get beat by someone else in a match and I shot what I am capable of then I need to practice more to become better but if I beat myself with a "Brain Fart" or equiptment failure then Iam hard to live with for a while(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>