Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sniper Country Duty Roster

May 19, 2000 - May 28, 2000

To add to the confusion, I spent 20 years in the old WWII type diesel submarines. We were (all qualified submariners are) designated SS. It stands for Silent Service, submersible ship, sinking shitcan, silly shits.... who knows...? Just another slant on the SS, no, not sniper or nazi oriented.

Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.132.161)

Sniper vs Tank - Hmmm, now there is a senerio that is missed represented alot. The idea is to get the TC to button up and then let the TOWs, etc cave in the side of the tank. Once the tank is buttoned up they are vulnerable. One of the reason that the Isrealis are so successful is that they do not let the TCs button up. While this is very hard on the TCs, It allows the TC to see launch signatures and bring peepee on the offending buttheads that just launched the missle. If you whack the TC, (driver is better) then all the better, aim low and skip it in. This increases the chance of a splatter hit and it lets them know they have been shot at and in danger. If you can get them to button up and deploy early then you have done your job. I will guantee you that they are more worried about missle launch then 7.62mm copper gilding marks on their tank. When they button up they will be watching for launch signature not looking for the human that shot that round, unless the human is so open that he is obvious. I'm sure that some will disagree and that is what all this is about, discussing different methods, unfortunately I'll be away from my computer for the next week and a half, so if you have a real good thought on this email me so I will see it. Otherwise I'll miss it in the roster.

DM vs Sniper - This is a matter of mission and not name. In the scenerios I've seen on the roster, it would be up to the sniper to match the right hammer to the right job. Who would use a brass mallet when a sledge is required or better still who would use a hammer when a nail gun would be faster and appropriate, ask Norm of the New Yankee Workshop. To argue that one gun is better than another all the time is not going to ever work. There are times when the bolt gun is the required tool, there are times when a fast shooting M4 is the required tool. There are times, to include Africa scenerio, when both are required. Try taking out some low life using a human shield at 300 meters with a weapon designed to take down the human wave attack. But that weapon to take down the human wave will be needed to protect the whole. One is for more steel on target and the other is for the surgical under adverse conditions. You can't have one without the other, just match the tools with the requirements. My arguement is that the semi, in it's present form, will not replace the bolt gun for that surgical. That bolt gun will not hold terrain though and it can not be decisively engaged. That is its big weakness. Though with proper planning and assessment of the situation, the sniper can put a package together that will prevail.

Got to go guys have fun for th next couple weeks. I will be thinking of you guys AND "gals" (?what is the accptable word now days?) while I go on my vacation.

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.183)

Thanks to all for the help on the case lube question. Making a fundamental change in reloading procedure needed research.

High Power Question: Am I suffering paralysis by analysis, and using up a perfectly good barrel testing loads? I plan to chase some leg points this summer, and I would like NOT to LOSE them at 600.

Dave Liwanag, 'Lito, UnDude & company, do you guys think I am expecting too much out of my 600 yard AR load? It consistently groups just over 3.00" for 10 shot groups with open sights at 300 yards off sandbags. (The distance I test all loads at initially. I will shoot it at 600 this weekend.) My scope mount is FUBAR, so I have to rely on the iron sights right now. Maybe our AMU guy (sorry, I forgot your name) can help me out, what do you consider an acceptable group for a 600 yard AR15/M16 load? As a point of reference, I have a 77gr Sierra load for 200 & 300 that I can keep 10 shots in 2.5" at 300 off of sand bags.

steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Paralysis by analysis, in south west PA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.218)

Gee, did I start this? I've used you guy'ses logic (and I DO see it), thought hard on it, and determined that my answer was right. Just asked the wrong question. I stand by my weapon (right or wrong), the M-25 as being THE ideal weapon for ME. Now, I'm no sniper, LE or MIL. Probably never will be. But I am a "wanna be" spotter. Am I the first guy to ever opt for the spotters position over the snipers? I honestly beleive that this weapon is about as good of a spotters weapon as can be for the majority of times (yeah, no one thing is going to be right ALL the time). I'm not trying to use a hammer instead of a 5/16" boxend wrench, I'm saying that I'm a mechanic, not a carpenter. Don't need any hammers (no Chev's in the garage) and nails, but a good set of wrenches is a MUST. You guys are PERFECTLY right. If I were going for surgical precision, first round hits, I'd be using the wrong tool. That's what a snipers for, and it ain't me! Seems to me that Mawhenny used to carry a bolt gun AND a M-14. Must have had a reason, that's a lot of excess weight.

And Kevin of the North: I'm also a big beleiver in a pistol as well. Not so much for necessity as the psycological comfort it gives. I KNOW what kind of a pistol shot I am, and I KNOW what kind of a rifle shot I am. So I love the pistol, and will give Mike a "teaching challenge" :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Oh, I wish I lived in the land of liberty, but I guess I have to settle for the, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.200)

I have to say my new Starlight case is outstanding. Also had excellent dealings w/ the Forster people lately. (Went to Redding,anyway).
Also my thanks to Pablito lately and Bill (dc8 plumber).

I love my M1A, but the groups open up when the bbl gets hot. Plus, after 2 Mudville matches in the rain, I am going to have Jerry Rice redo a M700 I have recently purchased. You don't need to be in the bush for several days to see the difference between the two systems. One rainy Mudville will convince you. The "beast" funtioned flawlessly, but when that flaky gravel that is on the firing line sticks to you, your scope, and all over your weapon, you see the light.
Spud,
Semper-Fi!
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 06:45:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.68)

Gentlemen:

I have decidade to trade my Leupold Tactical Vari III 4.5-14 40mm for another scope.
It may be a Kahles 6x42 K-ZF95 Mil-Dot or a Schmidt und Bender 3-12x50 Police Marksman P-1 Bryant.

My Leupold has a mil-dot reticle so I know what to expect but the Bryant reticle is unknown to me (its capabilities).

Finnaly my main goal it to aquire a scope with the better build quality and rugedness.

Could you please be so kind to help me with your expertise?

Thank you.

P. Marcos
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
Lusitania - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 194.65.14.68)

Rick...

We agree on the bolt v. Semi thing (same page of music again ;)... and you said it well.

Bravo Dudeski!!...
Yes, it's your fault!... and Hathcock's spotter carried a 14 also, and did it prowd in "Elephant Vally"... each gun's attributes supporting the other, to the major dismay of the enemy!

If the world goes to hell in a hand basket, and they're burning down the houses on the next street, you can plop your raggity-assed M1A on my porch any time ;)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)

DAVE LIWANAG,
Speeking of leg points, congratulations on the Silver last weekend!

Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.26.196)

?????????Does anyone know of any civilian sniper schools??????????????????????
Jim <jim586@thecia.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 11:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.97.42)

All:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AND GO TO THIS SITE:

http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html

An extremely well done spoof on a well known official. Be patient with it - it takes about 5 minutes for the whole show...

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:15:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

All:
STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW AND GO TO THIS SITE:

http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html

An extremely well done spoof on a well known official...Be patient with it - takes about 3 to 4 minutes for the whole show.

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:17:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

Rowdy,
I don't think there is such a thing as a "Do All" rifle but you need to decide what you will be doing the "Most" of and go with one that will cover your needs for the majority of the time. I would not be afraid of a plain BDLSS in the 308. I have one in a 260 and it will shoot 3 shot groups in the 2.5" range at 400yds all day long everyday as long as I don't get it very hot. The heavy barrel theory gets taken to the extreme once in a while, esp. with "Snipers" and "Tactical" shooters. We all want the pin point accuracy but in reality we still spend one hell of a lot more time carring it than shooting it. I have seen some very light barrel rifles shoot nearly one hole 3 shot groups and if were honest with ourselves don't we like to preach "One shot one kill" so why the big heavy barrels??? I think part of it has come from tactical matches where a lot of shooting is required with pin point accuracy, I have seen some people even going to bench rest calibers to try and gain and edge in the accuracy phase. Now from that little speach you might think I own mostly light barreled rifles, WRONG!! mine are all heavy except for my hunting rifle, the 260 BDLSS. I have them from 10 to 15lbs. but then I shoot a lot when I go out and shoot and when you shoot a lot a heavy barrel has the advantage because it heats up much slower and stays consistant much longer. So to make a long story short, pick a rifle to fit "YOUR" needs not someone elses idea of what is in "Style". Just my opinion for what its worth, Good luck!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 13:26:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

| Subject: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
|
| To one and all:
|
| This is the latest move in the destruction of the 2nd Amendment by the
| Clinton Commu-Nazis.
| Some of the names you will see below are real "heavy hitters" in the
| shooting world. Note: MSG Steve Reiter is the current and past National
| Pistol champion. MSG Fox is Ruby Fox, womens' National Pistol champion
| for about a dozen or more years running, and one of the few 2600+ womman
| shooters in the world.
| Despite the fact that there are more Olympic medals awarded for
| shooting than any other discipline - 13 in total - it looks like the USA
| will loose by default this year.
| It should be further noted that these were the same people who saved
| the US Army's bacon when the Infantry school fell on it's face for lack
| of marksmanship training in Desert Storm!
| Some people never learn.
|
| Respectfully,
|
| MSG David J. Lindstedt, Sr.
| US ARMY (retired)
| former team captain & coach 79th ARCOM Pistol team
|
| PS: Please forward this to any and all interested parties.
|
|
|
| --------- Forwarded Message ---------
|
| From: "MCILHANEY,ROBERT L.", INTERNET:
| To: "Dave Lindstedt
| Date: 5/16/00 5:21 AM
| RE: FW: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
|
| Dave,
|
| Well they have done it to us. It is official now. All Army reserve
| marksmanship teams and activities are going to be stopped. If you have
| friends in high places or know someone who does
| we could use the help with some face ripping letters.
| Bob
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Harry Russell
| Subject: All-USAR Shooting Team
|
| I got this email from Helmut today. It was a bit of a shock, although
| a lot of us had seen it coming; here it is in black and white. At the
| end of Perry, we have to turn in our equipment.
| Many of you have connections in high places, whether it be the
| military or politicians. We need to call in on all of our favors to try
| and keep the program going. I need someone to write a letter and pass
| out to our teammates to sign and mail to our Representatives in
| Congress, Senate and anyone else who will listen, including USARC. The
| letter should describe the benefits that the Army receives by having us
| as a Team and also the long tradition that we have had. We have
| wordsmiths on the Team who are more eloquent than I am and know the
| history of the Team better. Please let me know ASAP if you would like
| to volunteer to do this. If not, I'll take the bull by the horns and
| try to write it myself. Other Service Teams may also have a personal
| interest because if our program is cancelled, theirs also may be
| adversely affected. Let's go down with a fight and try and save our
| program!!!
|
| MAJ Russell
|
|
| Gentlemen,
|
| 1. It is my sad duty to inform you that the USAR is the first military
| organization to cancel competitive marksmanship activities. Hopefully
| the USAR will be the only one to do so.
|
| 2. Each of the teams (Pistol, Rifle, and Combat) will make arrangements
| to turn-in their equipment at the completion of this year's
| competitions. The equipment (which includes firearms) will be returned
| to the property book holder, the Small Arms Training Team (SATT).
| a. Pistol Team. All soldiers competing in the National Matches
| will turn their equipment in at Camp Perry, OH, after the pistol phase
| of the National Matches. Any team members who do not participate in the
| Nationals must make arrangements to turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 July 2000.
| b. Rifle Team. All soldiers competing in the National Matches will
| turn their equipment in at Camp Perry, OH, after the rifle phase of the
| National Matches. Any team members who do not participate in the
| Nationals must make arrangements to turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 August 2000.
| c. Combat Team. All soldiers will turn their equipment into the SATT
| no later than 31 August 2000.
|
| 3. Ammunition will be issued in quantities that will be expended no
| later than the turn-in dates. The remaining ammunition will be
| consolidated for transfer to the Army Marksmanship Unit or the National
| Guard Marksmanship Training Unit for use in their competitive
| marksmanship programs. MAJ Steven Spencer, as the All-USAR Shooting Team
| Ammunition Officer, is responsible for the
| disposition of ammunition.
|
| 4. The Army Marksmanship Unit will not order any new ammunition.
| Expendable items necessary for the successful completion of this year's
| activities may still be procured.
|
| 5. Additional information will be provided in future correspondence.
|
| 6. If we have to go out, let's go out with a big BANG (at Interservice
| and the Nationals that is).
|
|
| Helmut J. Hein Lynn Belcher
| Assistant Branch Chief,
| Individual Training Branch
| U.S. Army Reserve Command

*******************************************
Anyone seen this? Is it true? Is DoD returning to the practice of not practicing marksmanship, again? I thought DoD was getting more into marksmanship. Does this also mean that CMP is going away, perhaps?

Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.160.133.50)

Re: Destruction of USAR Shooting Team

"A country too long at peace inevitably attacks itself".

(I don't know who authored this, but it seems to fit)

Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
the divided State of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.235)

Jim

Re: Civilian sniper schools.

Check out www.stormmountain.com or contact bobbywhit@hotmail.com.

Storm Mountain is about as close as you're gonna find to a military style sniper course and Bobby runs a fine course also.

You might also consider the "Hardrock" matches put on at Ft Benning each month. While not schools they are sniper oriented matches and you will learn a lot by attending them. Contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com for more info.

On the USAR team. Too bad. Its a shame. Having been knee deep in the active USMC team and the ARNG budget process's at their MTU's I don't know if I would look at the Clinton admin as being the root of this. Most of the time its the budget fags at DA/HQMC etc that force this. In the reserve forces its all about recruiting and retention. If you can't tie into this, you're out.

Out

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)

Pat

I read your comments on the current state of the military. And have to say that most people have know Idea how bad it really is.

I got out amost 3 years ago. I started on a fast attach submarine (10 years ago) where if I even thought about a mistake or hesitated with an answer for a qualification, I was knocked on my a#$%%%%**.

After sea duty I was assigned to a submarine tender which was about 65% female because there was no other place for them in the US Navy. Also it made getting a good shore billet almost impossible.

As for the submarine tender duty, most of the women there were single parents who always had an excuse why they had to go home early or why work just could not get done because of sick kids.

Trust me I could go on and on about this subject.

Bottom Line is that the personel on the submarines are highly trained but they are not responsible and no were near the quality of the submariners 10-15 years ago. Because we are not allowed to train them properly. The people repairing these submarines are even worse.

I really hope we are not involved any thing resembling a war in our current state because some LESSONS will be learned the hard way and people will die just because they are not properly prepared and the equipment is not battle ready.

thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
Murrieta , CA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.194)

Kevin, we agree on the two rifle approach. One Sniper one M4. Pistol just becomes to heavy at that point. My opinion. I would rather carry two extra mags for the M4.

On Pistols, Bravo, anyone that can shoot a pistol can be trained to shoot a rifle minus handicaps. I have carried a pistol for a long time, daily, and just prefer a rifle to save my butt. Seen too many guys say "PLease dont shoot me again"

Got to go

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 18:25:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.47)

Luso,
Whilst the Bryant reticule is acceptable at X12 magnification, it 'disappears' (becomes a tiny, unreadable smudge in the centre of your field of view) if you zoom the S+B scopes back down to X3 magnification. Stick with mil-dot on S+Bs.
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 19:39:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.67.43)

Jim ( in Columbus, GA)

What Gooch said re: the "Hardrock" matches is accurate. I'm pretty much a newbie, really, at this. This will be my first complete year competing in matches.

The matches are on Sundays(as a rule) at the Ft. Benning English Range. These happen once a month. The other half of the tactical series is held in Ala. on a private farm. Magnificent place complete with 1000yd range. I'm getting up at 3AM tomorrow to drive there and try to get some zero shots in before the relays. The Alabama matches are generally once a month, as well. So it's two matches per month, usually.

Anyway, there are many great people; great equipment; great atmosphere. You can learn a lot ( I have). Not to mention the thrill of the doing. My excitement is my own worst enemy, but that's one of many reasons I go.

Rusty is a great guy, and I'm sure he would provide you with details. Also, the phone # for the Benning Club is 706 689 3371. Ask for Mr. McQuinn or Jim Graham. I'd throw in their email but EDS has clamped shut the corporate mailsystems due to the lastest virus scare. I think it's brpc@mindspring.com or some such.

Hey, you're in Columbus !!! You're right there..

Jeff A.

Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 139.76.64.4)

I am going to be purchasing a Tasco SS 10x42 mil-dot scope. I have a question on zeroing at a 100 yard range. Would it be practical to crank down the elevation adjustment so that there were only 10 or 20 clicks left to go down before boresighting, then boresight for roughly 100 yards? That way when you zero, you would already be close to 100 yards and wouldn't waste elevation by having the elevation adjustments in the middle and not have enough elevation beyong 4-5 hundred yards.
Pete Robertson <probert0@pacbell.net>
Rohnert Park, CA, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 00:24:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.176.132.119)

Pete Robinson; I'm thinking you have some way to move the mount to accomplish the boresight? Are you talking about shimming the mounts?
Or lapping them to zero? Normally boresighting uses the turrets unless the mount is adjustable. If you have adjustable mounts it would be very practical to do that. Or did I miss something?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 00:46:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Got a copy of Karen Christenson's long range shooting
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:37:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

Got a copy of Karen Christenson's long range shooting "game" the other day. Its not really a game rather a training aid. It's good to go guys and I recomend it. Check it out at www.shooters.com/stewartwilson/longrangeshooting.html

I've only messed with half of the thing so far and its easy to lose yourself in it. Its very well done and to tell you the truth... I wish I had thought of it!!

As soon as I can convince the rest of TRGT to come on board we will be selling it.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

Hey Gooch; I'll tell you my first score if you'll tell me yours!
You first!
He's right guys! It's a great way to learn the dots.
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:48:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Doh!! Its Karin Christenson. Sorry Karin!!!

Kent
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.175)

GUY'S, MR. GOOCH, is right on about Ms. Christenson's training aid, it's really nice,I use it and sub my own load data , so I can learn my c up's & windage.Try it it's a HOOT!, Thank you MA'M!...tshoes
"BIG D".
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:02:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.211)

Steve, quit wasting your time shooting test loads. You have the load you need in the 77s for 200 and 300 yards. How tight must the gun group for high power competition? 10 rounds in the 10/X-ring with iron sights for 200 and 300 yards, 20 in the 10/X-ring at 600.

Now go shoot. A lot. Replace barrel as needed.

STOP THE MADNESS! Stop couch-potato G-2'ing gear picks. Strap it on and go to the woods. If you don't need it, dump it. If you do need it, get it.

Sniper versus tank? You're kidding, right? I doubt a thermal-sighted main-gunner is going to use his co-ax machinegun on one knucklehead and spotter when his TC's body falls through the hatch and lands on his head. He's looking for the next incoming (fill in here: TOW, Javelin, Milan, HOT, LAW, RPG, Sagger, etc.) that's gonna smoke him. History example: Israeli tank commanders suffer the highest head/upper torso wounds of their combat arms. So did the Soviets in Afghanistan, and now the Russians in Chechnya. A buttoned-up tank is blind.

Thanks, Paul.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Mike: The only time you need a pistol is when you don't have one. I agree they usually are more trouble than they are worth,... but

Tanks: come on you think a sniper det is going to be a priority, maybe after all the anti-armour systems are dealt with. Besides you really want to take a shot at any old tank? - Sqn comd and up yeah... but hey button em up with arty - them burn 'em with tow. Also re:thermal, you can't tell a sniper det from a fire team so why waste a HEAT rd when .50 or 7.62 coax will do.

Spotters: (I'll rest on this after - I swear) Ideally your spotter is a qualified sniper as well - and you will be switching on and off - Esp. if you are in a hide for awhile. Now you see the tgt - wake your buddy - do you really want him to shoot now? Best he acts as spotter while you do the shooting - given that, do you really want a gas gun?
M4A1's are good to at least 600m, not ideal, but sufficent. Yes there are times when a M21/25, SR-25 etc. will do, but I don't think many of us would want to be limited in that way - One round can get by, but after three or four even a pre-schooler can narrow your position down
BUT I am quite willing to admit to scenarios that a 7.62 gas gun is an effective (and possbily welcomed) aid. Tailor you kit to the mission, not limit the mission due to your kit's insufficiencies (HEY any CDN Brass watching)

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.143.206)

Been listening in on the snipers backup weapon discussion. Who else feels like they would rather hump an M4 type as opposed to say an M9, HK, or Sig?
I'm thinking that the added weight might be worth it.Wasn't this subject brought up before? Some were talking about 12ga. shotguns then I believe. Is anyone doing this? How do you carry the weapon that is not in use? How much ammunition do you carry for the M4?
I might have to consider selling the Sig P220 in favor of an AR15 type. Something else to cloud my brain with.
Don
Don <don@libertyoutfitters.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:28:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.83.80.139)

Gentlemen,

first of all, the feedback on the choice of the "tools of the trade" you all gave was invaluable and admittedly I came out being far better informed in a lot of things. But my own beleif and bottomline regarding equipment still remains the same : Equipment is equipment and the best choise is the "hammer" that one's training, tactical, operational and deployment doctrine allows one to perform at maximum efficiency.

When it comes what "tool" shoots better MOA's, with all things being equal (training and judgement ability), I think from now on I will only accept statements that are based on test results derived from purely mechanical methods.

Want to compare two weapons ? Put the weapons, each one in turn in an anchored, stable, non-flexible vise made out of tool steel and conduct firing tests at staged distance ranges and controlled conditions.

Then take the firearms for a trip in your favourite Indian/mud/hill/mountain/, put them on the same vise again and under the same conditions, conduct the test again.

Perhaps this is "a" or "the" way to distinguish who manufactures a true combat weapon system and who manufactures something that shoots nice little tight MOA's only when the stock is glass beaded, the ammunition is handloaded with surgical precision, the shooter visits a gunsmith whose middle name is "Yoda" every week and the rifle is shot only every 15th day of the month after being trasported to the range in a velvet lined guncase (and the oracle advises the shooter that the planet allignment is right).

All firearms created equal ? You bet they are not. But nearly all combat rifles, properly maintained, fall within a comparable and, most importantly, predictable range of operating efficiency under nearly any operating condition. On the other side, one comes across a civvie firearm that boasts an AK/HK/Rem 700/K98/ and if it has a tigerstripe cammo stock, it is called "sporter" and if it has a black painted stock and an increase in price of 250%, it is dubbed "tactical". But hey... one still paid over three thou for it so it HAS to be good and since it is the "tactical" version, it automatically means that it will not fail you in the real world. I think I will paint my front door black and dub it "Tactical Intrusion Countermeasure System (tm)" and feel good about myself.

Anybody under the impression that Vassily Zaitsev or Major Walter Könings returned after every mission to a beer cooler and a master armourer to breastfeed their rifles ?

This post is way too long and it is way too late in the day. Just disregard it... nothing but the ramblings of a youngster...

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 08:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)

Did i forget to mention that I swear by the quality of German firearm engineering ?

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 09:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)

Again, for the spotter, what's your mission? You really MUST rotate guys off the optics every 30 minutes or so, before the eyestrain makes you ineffective. The two or three guys in position have to agree on the optimum combo of first-round lethality versus group suppression (the bad guys' buddies) and break-contact firepower. All three must be able to rotate on to the main gun or the spotter's gun.

Why does everyone make the assumption a sniper must ALWAYS shoot and run away? If you're on the OFFENSIVE, with your own mutually protecting infantry, tanks, and indirect fire, you swing a mighty club as well.

Walter Reed Army Medical Research Center has done great studies on sleep deprivation. A guy may be a walking zombie after 24-48 hours continuous without sleep, and it DOES NOT affect accuracy. With a sniper rifle or 25mm chain gun he will consistently nail any target. Problem now becomes a clouded judgment call (his reactions are hindered about the same as a .01 blood-alcohol content) -- he can smoke the target within a half-minute of angle accuracy. New problem -- he smokes a friendly 50-75% of the time, bigger than Stuttgart during Oktoberfest.

Oh, and tanks seldom travel without infantry.

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Fellas:

Anyone know if a Chandler Tactical Precision Mount will fit on an HS Precision (HTR) action?

HS says "anything that will fit a Rem 700 will fit ours as well..." but IBA says they've had at least one of their customers in TX tell them the Mount did NOT fit....

Thanks.

Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:52:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.90.112.97)

Just picked up a new rifle from an FFL holder on a transfer. Problem is, he is holding a box of Black Talon rifle ammo (included in the shipment as a "thanks for buying from me" gift) hostage pending a response from ATF regarding whether or not it is restricted as ARMOR PIERCING AMMO! When he opened the shipping box and saw the ammo, he thought he remembered that Black Talon rifle ammo in .308 was somehow restricted. Then he held a magnet up to it and decided that it contains steel, so he called the ATF technical division and asked them if the ammo is restricted. When I told him that I thought Black Talon pistol ammo was restricted by Winchester to law enforcement sales only, he said rifle ammo in .308, .223, and 7.62x39mm is restricted. So, I am stuck waiting for him to get a call back from ATF. Does anyone know if he is correct?

DNH <dh972@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.56)

Hate to make this "politics" county, but we could use some help. Some "good meaning" people want to pass some legislation to restrict where our concealed carry permits are valid. They're having a major "drive" at every library in every town in the state (UTAH) between 10:00 and 14:00 today. If this stuff goes through, it would keep licensed concealled weapons out of churches and schools. Not gonna preach to the choir, just need more people to do what I'm headed out to do. Stand in front of a library for 4 hours with some signs, handing out anti-gun control flyers, hopefully making some pro-carry media opertunities. And of course, keeping folks from (through education!) signing that stupid form. We now return you to the ongoing debate....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the commie infiltrated state of, Utah, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 14:30:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.193)

DNH...
Your "Dealer" is a jerk... tell him to read the manuals that come with the license!
The black talon line is an expanding line of bullets, not "armour piercing"... and it was Winchester's decision to "restrict" sales to police, because of media pressure... not the "ATF's".

But they re-named the stuff, made some cosmetic changes, and it is still on the civilian market, without the "scary name".

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 15:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.79)

Dave,
I think I get tunnel vision sometimes, since we don't have organic pl and coy snipers. I always think in terms of a BN asset, or higher, that deploys for the most part w/o support. I agree on the eyestrain issue, but if your in a hide for a week or so, 30min shifts aren't going to cut it. -as for lack of sleep, I guess if you can talk to a tree, you can drop buddy just as fast.
A little bird told me one of your Lt Col's (from Lewis) got his pee-pee wacked for using handloads at a All-Navy PACFLT match (career going, career going, career stops -don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!) I take it this a great faux pas? Moral of this story don't call for an alibi when using handloads.

Ares: A rest/vise is probably not a realistic field expedient, but some good points.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 16:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.1)

Kev, don't know about the faux pas at Lewis. The old Excellence-in-Competition rules were everyone HAD to shoot issue M1 or 7.62 Match. CMP changed the rules since there is no US standard 5.56 Match (across all services).

"CMP Rule 4-18. Ammunition. A. Rifle. Rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition."

The Navy issues Leg Match 7.62 and 5.56mm ammo to shooters who bring their score card to center of the line prior to first relay.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Kev, my mistake: if it was a COMBAT match, which is supposed to be issue 5.56 NATO Ball, and off-the rack M16A2s, then the guy ought to be disqualified and had the snot kicked out of him behind the trucks.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

I was there before, durring, and after the gun grab folks. Handed out leaflets to anything that would take it (salute it, pick it up, or paint it?), had signs, support and all. Couldn't turn away more than a hand full of folks or so out of the 50 or so that showed up. "I saw the ad for the petition in the paper", and "I heard the coverage on NPR" is what I heard a LOT of. Thanks, biased media. You've got folks driving out to take away gun rights on Armed Forces day. Now you guys know why I drink, and why I sign off the way I do. Even had some 70 or 80 year old couple wanna be nasty to me, calling me everything short of a terrorist for supporting concealed carry permit holders entering schools legally. I need a beer or 12. Sorry for the intrusion, just thought you might wanna know our side is on the losing end, my energy and eloquent speaches included. :-(
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.157)

Kudos to Pablito

Just finished doing my trigger as per Lito's extremely well written step by step instructions. I now have a smooth as glass 30 oz. trigger. Which should help my group size tremendously.

I encourage others to follow his instructions to the letter and you to will be plesantly surprised with the results.

Again, hats off to lito for sharing his expertise.

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:42:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.36.75)

Looking through the catalogs, I notice that LEE produces a bullet feed kit and a case feed kit for their press. Has anyone tried adapting either or both of these to a Hornady Pro-Jector? I've heard of adapting the bullet feed to a Dillon, thought it might be possible and worth it. Not that I would own one of their presses....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
comunist infiltrated, state of Utah, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 22:30:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)

semi throwing brass all over the place- you never hear of a brass catcher- now granted ,you have to modify them slightly to get them to work with a scope sight, but with this thing in place, the brass argument doesn't hold water- before canada went stupid and banned the m14-i had one with a brass catcher attached- you cocked it by screwing a piece of cleaning rod into the charging handle, pulling it back to cock, and then unscrewing the rod- grated it was complicated, but i never lost one round of brass- it was secured by a couple of snaps that mated the stock to the catcher-right now my principle is a savage 99 rs rechambered to 308-something acceptable to thje can govt for the moment
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.216)

Ah a thread has raised its head. Trigger weight. Danny this is not a hammer on you just a comment that your post brought to mind.

IN MY OPINION too many people take their triggers too light. In my mind there is nothing wrong with a good, crisp 3 - 3.5 pound trigger. Here is my thought process...

1. In my personal experience I've had a problem with keeping a good firm grip on the rifle when the trigger gets too light. I tend to want to "baby" the trigger and lighten my grip with a light trigger.

2. I think a sub 3 pound trigger is too light for a tactical shooter when under stress. I had a light trigger (around 2 pounds) on my M24 when I went through the Army course and had a "AD" for my first sighter shot on the KD qual. I was settling in for the first shot and whoa nellie!! M40A1s are set at 3.5 pounds and my C24 is at 3.2 pounds and that's just about right for me. I can lay the finger on the trigger, get settled etc without fear of launching. I'm not talking about leaving my finger on the trigger between shots. Just talking about the placing the finger on the trigger just prior to the shot.

3. A light trigger doesn't have an absolute correlation to smaller group size. Good trigger control does. Now it could be argued that a lighter trigger makes trigger control easier but I think you lose a degree of control when you go below a certain level.

Any other thoughts on this? Lets get buisy!!

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)

Brian - Brass catchers. You every seen a piece of brass get hung up in the ejection port due to a brass catcher? I haven't but was wondering if that would be an issue. I've used my ghillie veil to cover up ejecting brass on an M21 before.

out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)

i've never had a round hang up on me like that- i have the solid catchers by e&l on my car15, uzi, and m14- or at least had- i did hear about something loke that happening to the bag type, but never had it happen in real life9you notice how i used the past tense- i don't have any of those now
brian tawse <tawseb@cadvision.com>
calgary, ab, canada - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:49:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.130.46)

I LIKE that ENTER thing on the address...

Agree w/ Gooch on the trigger issue. Running down a wounded magpie (12 Ga.) once a looong time ago and decided I'd finish 'im w/ one well-placed .44 Spec. from my M29. He stopped, I stopped, and as I was pulling down on 'im it went off in the dirt. That night the trigger was readjusted to 3 lbs. (single -action). Taught me a lesson.
Then there was the ND w/ my 7 mag... Went down range but I have been satisfied w/ 3-5 lbs. depending on use in my firearms nowadays. What's REALLY important is that clean break and lots of PRACTICE.

I too have used a face veil or scarf w/ my M1A. Works good but I don't use it often. I attached some velcro to it and then velcro it to my scope. Lays 'em right at my feet offhand and right next to the weapon from prone. Excellent in tall grass.
May try it @ Mudville one day. I'm sure the bolt-gunner on my right would be grateful.
Semper-Fi,
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, californicateya, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 05:52:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.221.21)

I also have to agree with Mista Gooch on the trigger release thing, mine is set at 2 1/2 lbs, and is probably a little on the light side.

Tactical rifles are meant for abuse, not coddling like some princely bench rest rifle. Now don't go getting the idea I wish somebody beating my noggin baseball bat style with an M-24 clone, buuuuut,

a 6mmPPC "Tactical rifle" w/ BR type trigger weight?????

One thing I understand is the Stress concept in training based on some real life experiences and a lotta IPSC (old style) and creative training some shooting buddies came up with in the late 1970s and early 1980's while training for L-E careers, or just self preservation in bad neighborhoods.

Once that blood gets pumping and adrenaline rushes along at light speed from doing something like a simulated 400 yard Foot pursuit followed by a brief bit of fancy gunplay with a .45 auto, 9mm, or .38 revolver You develop a greater understanding of your own own mortality and physical conditioning! Yep this is "Spindley little" peteR who doesn't get fed/eat enough talking.

For those fit enough to try a 100 yard dash, say from the target bank/butts to the firing line, then unlock your POV trunk, grab said unloaded & cased rifle, run to line, (walk if other shooters are present for safety), then load a round from an ammo box or SSP and fire it at a 2" sized "T" at 100 or 200 yards. Lets try under 5 minutes for start times and decrease it from there.

Light weight "Go buttons" (UNDER 2 1/2 LBS)are better left to either the Master Snipers, or those more interested in static position accuracy shooting.

Off my soap box, and away to start sawing trim on yet another persons home in....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:04:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.183)

Trigger pulls...

I'll probablt catch a lotta' flack for this, but I don't think there is "one right" weight.

You can spring set 5 different gun triggers to the same weight, and when you shoot them, they will all feel different, due to the width (wide ones feel lighter than narrow ones), and where the finger settles on the trigger... lower feels lighter than higher.
Also, hands are different, and experence is different. It isn't the number of ounces that matters, it's whether you are in control of it that matters. If you are constantly wondering "when the hell is this sucka going to let go"... it's too heavy.
If you are often surprised by it going off as you're just starting up, it's too light... if you feel "it'll go any moment" and it does, you are in control, and it's right for the gun, the type of shooting, and the amount of stress/fatigue you have in that type of shooting.

I have field rifles that are 2 oz's (P'Dogs and Crows), and 5 pounds (Spotters matches)... and both are fine for the type of shooting they do.

Whatever it is, you need to be in control, and practice with it.

'lito.

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)

Ares, you make a point and as as soon as I start using a bench rest/vise to snipe with I will use one to test products. Test things the way you plan to use them. That by the way comes from more than just me. The first M16's failed in combat because they were not tested under the same conditions or with the same ammo. Your method would not have shown this either, but putting them in the mud, out of the vice would have. As to why certain rifles and equipment called tactical remain more expensive than sporter versions, it is as simple as the old race car approach of how fast you want to go depends on how much you have to spend. Granted that a point is reached in which you are just over spending but if you think the only difference between a Remington VS and a Chandler, NorCal, Gardner, HxS, McBros or another dozen names built rifles, is the color of the paint, you have another thing coming. It is like thinking a Yugo is the same as a Porsche. I do not need to put any rifle in a vice to see if it willl shoot. And while your at it top your Yugo equivilent rifle with a scope made in China instead of a Tactical MK4.

On the Chandler Mount working on a standard Remington 700. I am not sure on this but I think they clip slot the receiver on the Chandler built guns(Like the Marines) and use that slot as another mounting point on the base. If that is the case the mount will only work with a clip slotted receiver. Cost to clip slot is about 150-200.00. More if painted black.LOL

On trigger: About 3lbs is about right. Less than that and you better use only that and pray you dont go bang when you were not ready to go bang.

Rick, have a nice vacation. If you see your daughter tell her to keep her head down.

I have been working with the XM107 from Barrett. Have not shot it at greatdistance yet, but so far I really like it. It is light, for a 50, and breaks down to the biggest piece being about 32" long. Barrett is sending a backpack designed for it. I will strap it on my back and see how the thing feels to pack when it gets here. Anyone have any favorite 50 calammo they would like to see tested in one? The M99 Barrett also came in. It is also fairly light(25lbs) and looks like a very promising less than $3000.00 50cal matchg rifle. All barretts now have Krieger bbls.

Gardner is working on a McBros based Navy 50cal. That one is just waiting on a KxP bbl.

I have been shooting a great deal of the BlackHills ammo lately. It is working out very well. Somebodt finally has come along to push Federal into getting the quality back into their ammo.

Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Mike; is right the Black Hills is good stuff. It is primarily remanf and shoots with anything else. Local PD shoots it exclusively except in certain cases where something like Talon's are needed.
2 cents worth
Trigger control; If a trigger makes much difference you are lacking in trigger training. Now that's a harsh statement, I know. But it takes a long time of training and shooting not to notice a bad trigger system on the target so don't slash your wrists yet. Everyone likes good triggers and there's nothing wrong with trying to have a good one. 4lbs is about max I set triggers but 2lbs is light for hunting or combat weapons. Lito' has fired the 2 oz Remington on those early rifles and that's an experience in triggers lemmetell you or I'd bet he has. Double action pistol training is a good way to gain control. If you can pick up a out of the box S&W or Colt handgun and cycle the cylinder 6 holes in 3 seconds or less without having the hammer fall on the chamber you have pretty fair control. You will be able to shoot Ak's Mini-14s and almost HK 91's without impairing your accuracy. IF you feel your trigger constantly needs improvment you probably have a trigger control (mental) problem. Have you noticed that you set your trigger in the shop and it feels fine then when you get to the range you can't believe how much harder it is. Discover the problem by looking in the mirror! Practice is the key.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 15:30:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Could someone supply me with contact info for the manufacturer of the Slope Doper? I could also use an opinion on the Shilen match barrels marketed by Brownells. Use on a long range(max 600 yards-long for me!) rem 700 sa in .308. Thanks.

Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 16:49:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.36)

Triggers,
Well someone has to take the other side of this argument, I guess that duty falls upon me.
I have no problemo, with recomendations of a 3.5 lb pull on a tactical rifle. I only wish that some of my milsurps were that light.
I have some that are close to 10 lbs. Yet, they pose no handicap when shooting from a solid bench rest position. Now, the snipers on this sight scoff at bench rest shooting yet they employ every device known to man to achieve benchrest stability in field conditions. Cheating SOB's, every one of them. It is when one does not have that stable platform that a light trigger can be of some help provided one spends a goodly amount of time practicing with a light trigger from non stable shooting positions. I know a few guys that could clean house with nothing more than a flintlock rifle at say, 100 yards offhand, because of the balance of these long-barreled rifles and the set triggers that they use. I have personally witnessed 2 inch 10 shot groups all in the 10 ring done with open sights. Try that with a 14 lb tactical rifle and a 3.5 lb trigger sometime.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:40:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.12)

Bill,

Here is the address on the side of my Slope Doper,

D.P. Rolls
RT 1 Box 128R
Burlington, WV 26710

I bought mine from Hugo at T.R.G.T., ( www.trgt.com )

Kush out!
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.28.201.32)

I saw a rifle in my local gun store this weekend that I am interested in purchasing. I have also seen it advertised in Shotgun News. I would like to know if anyone has had any experience with the SPRINGFIELD SAR-8 (.308) rifle
(H & K 91 copy). I don't know if this is the same Springfield Armory that makes handguns and used to make a SAR-8 rifle. The receiver, is stamped Springfield and also stamped Minnesota. I'm not looking for "sniper" type accuracy, just a fun rifle to shoot. Any information that could be provided about quality, accuracy, and reputation of the manufacturer would be appreciated.

K. Long

E-mail chewie@srv.net

K. Long <chewie@srv.net>
Idaho, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 23:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.7.221.51)

Have to agree on the 3.5 trigger pull. This rookie never paid attention to it until last year. Had my PSS set to 3.5 and it is perfect for me. In fact my smith told me that unless I agreed to not use it in the field he would not set it less than 3.5. Thanks to Lito's and other contributer's directions, gGoing to set all my hunting Rem's at 3.5 when I get around to it, all by my self.

I think anything less than 3.5 carries diminishing returns. If you have to worry about dropping the hammer before you want it to it is too light and you are wasting concentration. I tried the 3.5 with very cold, dang near frost bit hands and could still feel it well.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.42.52)

!!!!!!WANTED!!!!!!
$100 cash paid to any person that can offer a genuine, blank Ft. Benning U.S Army Sniper School Certificate, circa 1994 type. current issue may still be the same, this is acceptable too. a view of a scanned image will be required before purchase.
Thank You.

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:12:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

CEASE FIRE!!

Certificate Seeker. Pound sand!!

Only reason this guy wants this certificate is to generate bogus credentials.

If you are a genuine graduate of the Benning course you contact them and get what you need.

Special Forces my ass!! Dude you're on the wrong website for this shit.

Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

WOW! I never thought that I would get such a response for such an innocent request. Sorry that you feel that way, but in no way am I phony. I understand your caution. I indeed was a member of the Green Berets. My MOS was 18C, Special Forces Engineer Sargeant. I just finished in '96. I graduated from the Ft. Benning Sniper School in Nov. of '94. One of my trainers who I had a really good relationship with was Sgt. Burundi Davis who I am having a hard time getting in contact with to help me out with this matter. Unfortunately I had a flood last summer in my basement and a lot of photos and other papers got damaged, including my certificate. Fortunately my other diplomas were upstairs on my wall. I have been to and placed numerous calls to Benning and I'm told if it was within the last year or two then it would be easier to track down, seeing that it was six years ago, it is more difficult, I'm told. I just can't fight with them anymore.
At any rate, what more do i have to say. I'm sorry for the inconvience. I just figured that someone could help me out.
I really thought the whole military was family. I guess you really see the truth once you become a civilian again and just need a simple favor done.
Adam.

Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:07:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.76.105)

Certificate Seeker Info:

Dude!...you are asking for a load of trouble....

You are comming into the Internet from:

C:\>tracert 216.67.76.205

Tracing route to nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms host1.hunters.org [207.233.164.1]
2 10 ms 20 ms 10 ms s3-3-1.crva001.volocom.net
3 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms s2-0.crva003.volocom.net
4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 166.90.148.89
5 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms gigaethernet5-ashington1.Level3.net [
6 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms so-6-0-0.mp1.Washington1.level3.net [
7 140 ms 241 ms 30 ms so-0-0-0.mp1.Weehawken1.level3.net
8 20 ms 30 ms 20 ms so-3-0-0.mp2.Weehawken1.level3.net
9 20 ms 20 ms 30 ms so-1-0-0.mp1.NewYork1.level3.net
10 50 ms 60 ms 130 ms 216.67.13.138
11 60 ms 60 ms 81 ms nyc2-r1-boston.navipath.net
12 60 ms 71 ms 90 ms nas9.boston.navipath.net [216.67.0.9]
13 371 ms 370 ms 351 ms nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]

Most likely from the boston area - since dns naming that is done these days reflects equipment location too..

Navipath.net looks like your ISP....

Registrant:
NaviPath, Inc. (NAVIPATH2-DOM)
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US

Domain Name: NAVIPATH.NET

Administrative Contact:
Investigations, Abuse (IA1764-ORG) abuse@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hostmaster, NaviPath (HN2394-ORG) hostmaster@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
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Record last updated on 07-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 11-Feb-2001.
Record created on 11-Feb-2000.
Database last updated on 20-May-2000 06:08:39 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS.NAVINET.NET 216.67.14.5
DNS2.NAVINET.NET 216.67.31.254

They would probably not appreciate what you're doing.

More info if needed....

Ken :()

Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:10:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

If you are who you say you are then you would know why you're getting hammered on this.

You'll be checkd out.

Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)

OK sports fans Sarge needs some help. Am looking for good prices on Black Hills .308 168 gr match NON-moly,I know I can get Gold Medal from Hoplite for $320 something but I want to try Black Hills if the price is right. And a Camelback - the Storm model. If you have good prices on these items please e-mail me.

THANKS

Sarge

Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:24:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.245.243.173)

Whoa Ken......I am impressed. I have little idea of what you said but I think it's not too positive for "searcher."
There is a sniper site that debunks and exposes frauds and wannabe's. (general statment, no offense meant to anyone or insinuations made) Makes for real interesting reading. It's STA 2-23 and it's at geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/2102/frame.html, I think! When it comes to exposing these guys, he is a pit bull. I wouldn't want him on butt, no siree.
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Texas 77338, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:59:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.109.123)

Just a quick FYI. A Brit by the name of Bill Davison has opened and place West of Ft.Worth/Dallas call Tac Pro Shooting Center. I have not yet had a chance to go out there and see it first hand hand, but I have been told by more than one person that Mr. Davison is putting together a First Class operation. I did spend a dime and give him a call last week and he seems to be a nice guy. He has started out with the Royal Marines and ended as an instructor with the SAS. Tac PRO has a finished rifle range out to 1000 yards and are in process of completing a covered 25 yard range and classrooms. Shoot House and other fun stuff are in the works. Tac Pro is set up for Military/LE and Civilian alike. Basic/Intermidiate/Advanced Pistol, tactical Shotgun, Precision Rifle, Carbine and Subgun, with SWAT, CQB, Sniper and VIP Protection availble to Military/LE.
I'm thrilled that I can get to a real "long range" within an hour and can quite mowing my father-in-laws "back 40" to shoot.

Tac Pro Shooting Center- Bill Davison
35100 North State Hwy. 108
Mingus, TX 76463-6405
254/968-3112
254/968-5857 fax
tacpro@eaze.net

Frank, if Joe has said anything to you yet, I'll drive.
JFW

Jack <jackwilson@anglefire.com>
Ft. Worth, Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 04:07:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.215.65.177)

Certificate seeker,
I know most of the instructors during the time you are asking about. i didn't get stationed at Benning until Feb '95, but almost everyone was still there. Give me more details and info that adds up and maybe I can help. What was your class number? Who was the NCOIC, who were some of the other instructors? Talk to me about week one. Make me really believe that you were there and earned the certificate and maybe I can make some calls. Other wise, I have to agree whole-heartedly with the others.

PS. My diploma is sitting on the wall right next to me.

Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 04:11:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.197.99)

K.Long :

Regarding the Springfield SAR-8, here is the sitrep :

There are 2 types of SAR-8's; pre-ban and the post-ban versions.

Pre-Ban :
Wholy manufactured in Greece by the same company that supplies the Greek armed forces, called "EBO", which is also stamped on the receiver itself. That rifle's receiver is stamped steel WITHOUT an integrated weaver scope mount. Rifle manufactured by original HK tooling and it is as close to an HK as you can get without paying over $2500 for a used original HK-91. It also has a muzzle break at the end which serves nothing but cosmetic purposes since it is installed about 2 inches before the end of the barrel and the break's end is flush with the barrel crown. Those rifles come with a sporter stock and it is quite illegal to replace it with the pistol grip for they were made 100% in a foreign country. Price ranges : NIB-$1500, 90%-99% condition at $1200. Both figures ballpark. Damn good piece of equipment and no longer in production.

Post-Ban (like the one you are describing) :
Three words for you on this version of the rifle - Aluminium alloy receiver. Although majority of parts still manufactured in Greece with the same exact specs as German HK's, the receiver and several pieces in the trigger assembly are manufactured in the US. Receiver is manufactured by Hesse Arms in St Paul, MN (www.hessearms.com) and it is a butt ugly piece of crap that heats up fast, bends and after a little while and the bolt carrier instead of being guided by the grooves in the receiver, will end up banging against them. This is the flat-top model with the integrated weaver scope mount. If you pay more than $900 for this, you are being robbed. My suggestion would be to stay away from it.

Both rifles have a stainless steel barrel but the huge drawback on both is that in both cases, it is button rifled.

Even with the pre-ban model, to achieve anything close to true sniper quality performance, you would have to remove the front sight (it is clamped on the barrel), change the barrel altogether (price variable), change the trigger assembly to a PSG-1 type (about $450), install an MSG-90 style forearm guard at a bargain price of about $800 and finally weld in reinforcement rods in the side external grooves on the sides of the receiver to increase receiver rigidity.

Oh, and an HK-style, copy claw mount for a scope made by A.R.M.S. will run you at about $220 (original HK runs at about $350, all prices ballpark).

Got cash ?

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 06:51:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.223.224)

Certificate seeker,
Just one year ago I wrote to the U. S. Army Ordnance Center and School at APG, Md to get my certificate for their Small Arms Repair Course because I never got mine back in January of 1991 because I missed graduation because I was too busy gettiing ready to go to Saudi Arabia, after a short stop at Benning. After I wrote to them, I had my certificate in about 2 or 3 months even though it was 8 years later. No run around, just the normal wait for paperwork.
Eric <Roody5150@aol.com>
Cabot, Pa, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 09:21:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.162)

Thank You Thomas and Eric for at least offering me a chance to explain myself. In my opinion that previous attack was completely unnecessary, at least not in that context. But everyone does have the right to free speech so I don't condemn I just offer sympathy. I can understand being cautious. Believe me, I know what it's like to really earn something and I would not want someone that has never remotely experienced such intense training and gratification that comes from my previous fields, to even roam this world posing as one of us. well enough of that. you wanted some further details so here goes:
I graduated class 01-95 in Nov '94. Two other instructors that come to mind are SSG Charles Olsen and SSG Broseus. Upon entering Benning I was required to meet at Harmnony Church where the school headquarters is, building 4882. If I can divide up the five week course accurately down to the first week the main thing that comes to memory is familiarity with the M24 SWS, the M3, and the M118 ammo and beginning of suit construction. My graduating class was of 17, originally 24. I have to admit, I came very close to failing on the memory test. I just couldn't remember for the life of me the blank adapter I saw amongst all the confusion, but it came to me.
All in all, I didn't think this whole process was going to be this involved. I truly thought message boards were there to help, but my initial impression was not pleasing at all, honestly I do feel a little violated having my IP address traced like that for doing absolutely nothing wrong. My final conclusion is that I will probably take the long trip back home to Columbus (I'm in Boston right now watching over my grandmother) and go to Benning again. Eric's success has giving me some hope to try at it again.
Thank You Thomas and Eric for your replies, they are much appreciated.
Adam.
Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 10:17:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.74.248)

Oh No! A pedigree thread!! Certificate Seeker, you better unass the AO. On 2nd thought this could be fun. On FAL Files, a guy was claiming to be Airborne Ranger, he got his rear handed to him. It was kind of comical.
Just sign me, A Lowly Airborne Grunt. No dope on a rope, No Q course, did go to RIP, didn't like it!! No sniper cert.
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 10:25:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.214.119.202)

Pablito,
Thanks for the e-mail reply, that explains everything. Much appreciated!
Hoooah!
Adam
Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 11:44:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.214.76.227)

SSG Charles Olsen is gone but SSG Broseus is still there (at least as of 3 months ago). He has been trying to leave for 3 years but they won't let him leave.

Try emailing them at sniperschool@benning-emh2.army.mil or calling them at (706) 545-6006 / 6985, ask for SSG Broseus and explain. You would be surprised that he might remember you, which would help tons. I stay in loose contact with him and if I need something, he is the one I contact. They should be starting another class on sunday, so this week would be your best chance to have them dig through back paperwork. You might also try faxing them if you can't get them on the phone (which is sometimes very hard) at (706) 545-6693. Do you still have your orders? If you do then that would be all they need to reissue a certificate without looking to hard.

Glad you understand why you got jumped on so fast. You would be surprised at some of the crazy people that would buy a certificate and then get someone killed because of their lack of training. I get requests for certificates for our classes from police officers all the time. They sometimes confuse friendship with weakness or stupidity.

Good luck. Thomas

Adam <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 14:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.193.197.99)

buying sniper certificates ????

thats like buying a Doctors title, I guess everything goes if the price is right.

But who would want to buy a sniper certificate ??? a Helo Pilot licence, OK, but a sniper certificate, I mean the job sucks ! You get lonly, cold, starved, eaten up, etc. Who would want to pay for that ????

:- )

t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 15:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 62.224.19.119)

All:

Youn'z out there that have me as: ken@aspire.net

Please change that email address to: ken@hunters.org

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 16:02:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 4.3.240.234)

I can see only three reasons for wanting the certificate in question, and my unqualified responses:

1) Person is a collector of military memorabilia.
For a collector, it may make sense to ask as he will probably have a difficult time finding one. But there are reasons that you can't find them. Would anyone who has completed the training in question even consider it an option to sell a genuine certificate (blank or otherwise)? See reason 2 above for a BIG reason why they are scarce.

2) Person is trying to "create a background
I personally have not been there or done that (the training), but I have too much respect for those that have to ever pretend that I did. In this case he deserves to be used as UKD mover target. He can learn first hand about that which he seeks to pretend.

3) He is what he claim.
Once he has proven to your satisfaction that he is truly "one of you", help him out.

I gather that this is basically what was told to certificate seeker via e-mail.

Ken, I like the posting of the trace. The idiots out there hiding behind the "anonymity of cyberspace" have no idea how quickly they can be found, or that there is no real way to hide.

You leave footprints every where you go, mud, snow, cyberspace, etc. all it takes is someone that knows how to track you.

Sorry this is so long, but I never thought I would see something from my new career posted on this site.

Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
trying to remember how I shot awful, hand so well last year, maybe practice more., USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 16:42:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.57)

(Questions about cheek rests)

I have a custom Remington 700 with a McMillan A1 stock. I've found the comb is not high enough for me to get a proper sight picture in the scope. I am considering either getting a cheek rest, or getting a different stock (such as the McMillan A3 or A4). What are the pros and cons of each option?

How stable are the add-on cheek pieces? The only ones I know of are from Blackhawk, and they have two kinds: a tie-down version that has a fixed height, and another version with cinch straps but adjustable height by adding spacers. Are there other ones I should research? How much do they slip around and move on the stock, how durable are they in the field, etc.?

If I decide to get a new stock with adjustable cheek piece and length of pull, then what are the pros and cons of this option? How repeatable are the settings, how fragile are the moving pieces, etc.? How does H-S compare with McMillan? Any other considerations?

I don't get to check the Duty Roster as often as I'd like, so I'd appreciate if you'd please e-mail responses to me in addition to posting to the roster.

Thanks,
B. Melick

B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
Dallas, TX, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 17:13:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 170.97.67.7)

Back to the trigger question:

I have a hunting rifle (Ruger M77 MkII) with a 2 1/2 pound stock trigger. This is just right for bench work, but just a bit light for hunting, especially when wearing gloves. A 3 lb trigger would be better, and a 3 1/2 pound trigger also acceptable. Both are a far cry from the 8 lb, 2 pieces of sandpaper POS that it came with.

Strangely (or not), a 2 stage trigger can have a better trigger at a heavier weight than a single stage. I probably don't need to say why. How many people here would use a two stage trigger on a sniper rifle?

Anyway, trigger weights between 2 1/2 and 5 lbs are acceptable in my very humble opinion. A crisp 8 lb trigger is better than a 3 1/2 pound sandpaper job.

Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 17:26:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

Just an inquiring mind with some difficult decisions ahead,

I have a question for you legitimate snipers out there. If you were to start over again courier wise knowing what you do now, would you still become a sniper? Is the calling strong enough to draw you into the field again, or would you strive for something else?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Ryan <fly_lloyd@hotmail.com>
Kelown, British Columbia, Canada - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 19:03:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.65.9.152)

Certificate Seeker: Damm Dude, read your first post before you get pissed at how the guys responded. You sounded like a phony. Dont offer to pay for what you should get. Call up there and talk with someone. Write a letter explaining what happened. Spell "Sargent" Sergeant like most of the US. I may be wrong but I thought the US Army spelled Sergeant the same way the US Police Departments did. I being a Sergeant know how to spell my title. If I could only learn to spell LT. LOL Seriously if you are for real good luck. If Not E.S.and D.

Sarge, if you need help in the Black Hills ammo department give me a call.

Sniper stocks, Dude it depends on what stock feels best to shoot with. You can use an Eagle Stock Pad to raise the comb.
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 19:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

I have a "Weather Equipment Maintenance Technician" School Graduation certificate, circa 1989, that I'll sell.
In all sincerity, won't your DD Form 214 reflect your attendance at the school in question? Mine, with an accompanying RIP, has every half-baked class I was cut orders for. Unless you're building an "I Love Me" wall, that should be credential enough.
By the way, why don't people lie about being an electronics/comm squad weenie. At least we had chicks at work. Ask me about my basic training injury sometime.
Jim <certificate seller@ebay.com>
Portland, Or, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 20:46:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.8.126)

A blank sniper certificate?

How's this:

Student Records
United States Army Infantry Center and School
Fort Benning, Georgia 31905

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 22:01:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Out shooting today - M4 and bolt gun - you should see the bullet drop on the 77gr Sierra from a M4 at 600 (nasty) the ACOG reticle is pretty close to the C77 (SS109) ball but the 77gr is about 2 feet below that.
Think I'll keep it for a full-length gun and save the ball for the M4.
-- I guess the moral is don't bring a squirrel gun to a long gunfight.

Ken -- Jeez that's scary, I thought I was gloriously anonymously surfing those porn sites (LOL)

Mike - We spell Sergeant that way too! -- You guys just don't know how to pronounce Lieutenant.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 23:30:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.74)

ACCURACY;
First off let me say that I am not in LE nor the mil. but I do understand accuracy and this is just my opinion. We all like our rifles to shoot one hole groups but it is not needed for most applications but this is my opinion as to what accuracy is needed for LE and the Mil. snipers.
I read all the time about someones one MOA rifle and they think it is good enough and it is for the games/shoots we play but for real LE sniper I think that if you are going to use a rifle for a sniper rifle it should be capable of 1/2" or less. What if you get into a situation with a hostage and a low life behind the hostage. You will be shooting at a very small area of his head "WITH NO ROOM FOR ERROR" and you need that 1/2" or less rifle at that moment not that one MOA rifle. The same thing would apply to someone in the Mil. with only head shots available. A one MOA rifle would work if all you had to shoot at were torsos but that is not the real world.
You can buy this kind of accuracy but it is useless unless the person be it LE or Mil. does not practice, practice, and practice some more. The more practice one gets the more confident one gets and confidence itself will do more to improve accuracy than the best rifle one can buy. You will know that if you have to take a shot you can do it right the first time.
I think if someone takes on the job of being a sniper then he should be dedicated enough to be out practicing as much as he can or he should not take the job and have a rifle that is capable of 1/2" or less as his life and the life of others depend on his abilty to perform his job when needed. Nothing beats trigger time and a good rifle.
Just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 23:29:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.102.110)

ACCURACY; (it beats the hell out of certificates!)

I agree, and disagree with Jerry Rice (maker of very fine < .5" rifles).

Last year, two "SWAT" officers were at the local range, sighting in their new .308 PSS's with new Lupitas. They set up full face "perp" targets, and after much fuss, both shot 3" groups on the nose of the perp targets, said they were ready for "The Match!", and left.

If you want to take a hostage, go to Cheshire CT... you are perfectly safe ;)

Most LE don't have the skill to be a consistant 1/2" shooter, even from a bench, and surely not from a "tactical position". And the price of a 1/2" rifle is wasted on them.
In any case, where the difference would be made between 1" and 1/2" rifle in a LE situation, they won't get a "Go" if the target is that small... hell, they don't get "Go" when the target is standing in the open... the politics are currently such that they don't need all the cool stuff they have.

There is an amazing amount of self confidence built when shooting a fine 1/2" rifle, and watching that black spot on the target stay pretty much the same... and once you've done that, the lesser rifles just don't do it.
But the training time, and the practice time wouldn't be covered by most departments. The guys in my town, considered their weapons as just so much baggage, unless they were doing traffic stops. They had no interest in inproving shooting skills.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 00:19:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

Lito-
I tyake exception to your comments.....unless you are talking about the highway patrol;)
Guys you have to check out this news article
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2000/05/item20000520151055_1.htm

And you thought the US military had it bad!!!!!

Mictac <Mictac@AOL.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 00:50:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.194.206)

Mictac

"I tyake exception to your comments..."
Hey Mictac Dude... no mor badd spelen on thes syte!!

I heard about them having to say "Bang bang" on the rifle range, but didn't believe it... the worst part is:

"However, a Royal Navy spokesman says live firing is no longer necessary, and the forces have to provide value for money."

What value... as targets, while the new Rooskies teach their kids in school how to use AK's and grenades... I'll bet the Rooskies are getting "full value!!"

Hey guys... if we say "Bang bang, clang clang", at the sniper match, do we get full score for two hits, or just one?

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 01:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

On accuracy:
Jerry, with all due respect, I don't care how well a rifle can shoot (within reason), it's ME that I need to improve ;-)
Really though, if I could hold 1 MOA from a field position or at range, I'd be a WAY happy shooter.
But on such subjects, seems that my darling M-25 is on her way home. To give her a "try out", my smith (DC8, any time you're in this part of the country, you've got all the free beer and steak you can handle!) handed it out from the weapons support van to a passing sailor (friend) and he shot a 196 11X with it. He says the spindle is enclosed in the starlight case. That definately is better than I could do, and gives me something legitimate to aspire to. Mike, you've got your work cut out for you!

Now for the odd part. He says that Kreiger barrels tend to shoot BETTER after they've "seasoned" with 500 rounds or so. Any takers on this one? And with ammo, haven't tried this yet, so thought I would ask the experts if I'm gonna be wasting my time, is there a big difference in loading the bullet 10 thousandths or so off the lands and going another 40 thousandths so they fit in the mag AND feed?

Oh, and while I'm at it, does anyone have a blank SOTIC certificate I could get for under $20? JUST JOKING!!! Really cert seeker, dunno who you are, but if you're for real, hope you have lots of luck.

Kevin of the North: I'll ditto that comment to Ken. HAHA!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
I'm in Utah, no, really, in Utah, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 01:25:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)

Pablito: shouting Bang!

I guess ever so often - a comrade should clap his hands loudly once or twice near the ear of a nearby comrade. That way the near by comrade can shout MISSED!!! back at a 'virtual sniper'

Ken
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Pablito: followup....

I guess they're training - just how they will fight in their next conflict...

Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:25:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Kevin isn't it true that all Canadian officers are Left-tenants? Don't they mean they all smoke with their left hand? I'm confused here.
I guess Mike has to say GANG BANG Clang Clang! Bein from LA and all. Still confused with Sniper Terminology out chere.

You guys just dazzle me with all this stuff!
Shootin Half minutes? Lord the worst Redneck I know can get off a shot in less time than that

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

And now a question for the armorers out there. I was told that my '25 was bedded the "Marine way". What's the difference between the Marine way, Navy way, and Army way? Other than the extra 500 round expectancy I was told?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:42:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)

'yote bate...
Jeez, us sheep chasin shooters don't get no respect! Hell I'kin get offin a shot in half a minute... well, sometimes.

Ken...
They're practicing for the next desert war... they'll just fly over Bagdad, and say Boom, boom, and save all that ordance money.
The way Klinton is going, we shouldn't laugh, we may be saying "Bang, bang" soon, we've used up all the good stuff, and there's no money to replace it (but he spent it for the kids!!)

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:46:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.15)

AR question here - anyone know where to locate the metal israeli "desert" clips to double a 16 mag?

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:47:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)

Pablito, I hate to be the guy that brings the bad news but LE Snipers can and do shoot very small groups. I can talk from experience teaching them and being one for too long. I hold my students to 1moa to 300 yards as a passing score. Most shoot to the capability of a PSS 1/2-3/4moa and better with better rifles. Ask Jerry what size groups I have been shooting everytime I go out. Where LE Guys fail is distance and reading the wind. You may have just happened on a few chuckle heads. I never want to be limited to a rifles capability so I get the best I can. If I make a bad shot I want to know it was me and not the rifle. Take out all the varibles possible and have few excuses. I prefer to hit what I aim instead of saing "That F,,,,, Rifle" You can not polish a turd! I used to shoot PSS's as they came from the factory but never more. Jerry you ruined me.

Kevin we mostly call Lt's by different names. I can not say them here. You agree Mike T? By the way I here he can shoot also. I would not tick him off. I made him a cuff based on my arm and he asked for a bigger one. Modeled that one off of mt stepsons thigh(about 21")

Good night all
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:49:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.27)

SO do your LOO-tenants spend their time in the can?
Kevin <lkevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:51:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)

Brav; Don't forget the cowboy way!
Lito'; Hope they got trigger locks on them nukes! Wouldn't want cousin Bill playin with em lest they do!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:51:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

- LE shooters - well you should have watched the World P&F games in Calgary in '97. The sniper event had some interesting results - the 100m mover, in a bus - Well anyway those who did hit, weren't to impressive. (the Argentinan Federal Police guy forgot to take his safety off)
So I figure hostage takers are pretty safe as long as not in your neck of the woods Mike.
P.S. I can run faster scared, than you can mad (LOL)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:58:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.8)

Mike...
I hate to be the guy that brings you the bad news... but nost of the LE around the country aren't your students... the people on this site, and their students, are people that care about, and follow the "art".
This is a site for those that march to a different drummer.

The average LE, in Podunk, has little interest, and the average town council has less.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 09:44:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.93)

LOL, Kevin thanks for making me laugh. I've never heard somebody speak words that were more true than those. Guess I got chased a lot as a kid. Perhaps that explains why sheepies are so hard to catch?
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 09:46:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.165.93.37)

Music for Snipers to reload by, check out epictouch.com click on
country music. Besides it'll scare hell out of those geeks in there
when they see you all connected. No money changes hands just good
pickin!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 12:44:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Pablito/Kevin, many reasons for a sub 1/2moa rifle exist. One is the true potential of a rifle and shooter combination is the adding of the shooters capability and the rifles capability. If you add a 1moa shooter to a 1moa rifle you get a 2moa group. If you add a 1/2moa rifle to a 1moa shooter you have a 1.5moa group. At 200 yards the difference is 3 or 4moa and thats a difference that is significant.

As to what and who knows about LE Snipers. I have been doing this weekly for many years. Recently I shot a 5" group at 1000 yards from a mud puddle. I have shot many groups under .25moa (including one five shot group under .10 moa) at shorter ranges. I have gone to countless shooting events and met much better group shooters than me. Granted most of these event have taken place in Calif, but I do not think us city bread boys can do any better than the guys that grew up with rifles in trucks. When I was at the Carlos Shoot I met several PD Shooters that could best most guys on the DR antday. Autugua (Spelling?) Arms had a guy from a Fla. PD that was a very good shot. Old Dep. Dave is a fair shot and would give most of you a run for the money. Last I looked he worked in as close to Podunk as possible. Well actually Podunk is the County Seat he works in a much smaller place.

Kevin, Worl Police and Fire Games in Canada. Well dude, most of the guys that go to that are looking for a vacation. Friend of mine went whi is not a sniper, never was, and borrowed a rifle there to shoot with. Too big a hassle to get one from here into the country. Come down here and I will show you some shooters.

I know your intentions are great but LE can shoot.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 15:20:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.59)

Mike it wasn't meant as a flame. My point is that in both Mil and LE the percentage of shooters is relatively low. A lot of reserve units, up here, beat the reg force teams - due to the shooting comitment (but don't ask the reserves to go out in the cold -LOL). Worse off at a lot of events we would get beat by Medics and other non-combat arms. --Reason most people on the teams were looking for a party not a serious competition.

Total agreeance on getting the best rifle you can (Don't need anymore handycaps than I give myself already)

And as far as people beating me goes - hey every weekend some civie kicks my ass and makes me relearn humility (a local LE won this weekends service rifle)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 15:35:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.163)

Interesting discussion you boys got going there, but I've found it don't make much difference what hat a fella wears or what paycheck he
draws or what hangs on his wall. It's how dedicated he is to puttin em all in the same hole. Same for stalkers and fighters, and wild bull riders when it gets down to it. Mike, it tells me more about you as a shooter when you say you laid in a mud hole and shot when you didn't have too than the size of your group. A rifle that will shoot will do a lot for man's spirit however.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:02:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

To lito, Bravo, Kevin and all;
As I said a person that takes on the job of sniper and all that goes with it should be dedicated to that job or he should not take it. It is an awsome responsibility and not to be taken lightly and that person should have the best equipment avaliable and practice, practice, practice until he is as good as his equipment and keep practicing to maintain that edge. A miss can be more harmfull than a shot not taken, just look at Sacramento, CA a few years ago when a miss caused the low life to go on a killing spree and a year or two ago I think it was in AL where the sniper shot the hostage. This kind of crap should not happen and would not happen if they were truely "TRAINED" snipers with good equipment.
And to all Mike Miller can shoot extremely well but that comes from practice to maintain that abilty.
Again just my two cents worth.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:08:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.192.146)

Jerry...

Your two cents? Yup...

I think we all agree on the need for good training, good attitude/desire, and good equipment... and the price society pays for the lack of any one of them.

Mike...
We know you're a California type, but please, this year, no Blond ghillie suit in W.Va.!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.8)

Mike & lito'
Your both right and wrong, unfortunately not all LE snipers take it as serious as they should. Sometimes its the officers fault and sometimes its the departments fault. I have seen some damn fine shots in the LE game and some really poor ones and they both fill the same job. A good place to see a cross section is to go to a match that caters to both military style shooting and LE type shooting. The match in Nebraska that Hornady put on last year was this way. In the precision shooting the LE types excelled and in the long range shooting the military boys did well. I think part of it was equiptment and part of it is the experience in wind reading, as Mike pointed out. I have been to several schools in LE shooting where it was shocking to see how unprepared some of these guys were. Not critcizing anyone now, but part of the problem I have seen is guys are sent to LE sniper schools and everybody passes no one fails!! They give everyone and "Attendance" certificate. I think it has to do with the newrer kinder society where we won't feel like a failure if some hard nose throws our ass out because we can't cut the mustard. At my last school, that was put on by the State Patrol, the instructor told a couple of us over a beer one night, how he was criticized for being to "Hard" on the students and actually had yelled at some of them. He was then told by the company he worked for, to back off, he wasn't in the USMC anymore. Sad to say this is more the norm anymore.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 19:31:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

If you buy a hunting rifle such as a remington 700 or winchester 70 are there heavy target barrels that you can purchase and put on the rifle? Also is there any difference between a 24" barrel vs. a 26" barrel for 7mm mag and .300 win mag?
ken <lynneh@ccpl.carr.org>
Westminster, MD, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:12:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.150.97.33)

Pab, you slay me. Blonde it was because we have no green here. Green it is because that is what I needed in WV. Alas I wont make it this year but if anyone needs a ready painted ghille.LOL Where the heck are you going to eat? The best place closed down.

Kevin no flames taken. I get my but kicked by civies also. You shouls shoot High Power against the Sharks at Sac.

Pat, I quit teaching impact weapons because I had a few students gets hurt and the Admin said "Cant you teach them to fight without contact?" Enough said

Training is everything
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

top gun usass 04-00
Pete <snipero974@excite.com>
ft campbell, ky, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:39:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.252.94.47)

News from Autauga RIfles. If any of you military snipers wish to compete in the European Super Sniper Shootout in Austria at the end of August the owner of Autauga will pay your entry fee's/room/board. You have to get there yourself (take a hop).

If you are interested contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com.

Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 21:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.179)

When speaking of LE snipers and their accuracy, I'm sure that most recall that news video clip that showed the LE sniper shoot a pistol out of a mans hands who had threatened to kill himself. I don't know the details of the shot, range, cal and so on but I do recall that the bullet was not a standard copper jacket/lead core. I think it was some sort of composite compound like mag-safe. Do you think this was a "lucky" shot or a man who was dedicated to his trade? Which ever it was it raised a lot of eyebrows and dropped a lot of jaws.

The way prices have been going up on reloading components I'm just about ready to go to the range and shout "bang" too!!!!!

Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 22:04:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.109.15)

Jerry- not to "flame" you....(not the least because you are building my new rifle!!!) but the two scenarios you mention have certain problems.
The first one (Sacramento /Good Guys store)brought home a lesson and much needed new information that I won't go into here.Yeah there was a problem...but nobody knew about it before. Undude- back me up on this if you can.
The second one(Alabama hostage shooting)is the product of bad information. The truth of that scenario only came out last year. I personally spoke to the man who took that shot and what happened.
In a nutshell, the news media were wrong (shocking huh?).

MicTac <MicTac@AOL.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:01:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.199)

Darn- got too excited and hit the wrong button. Back to the Alabama shooting for those who are interested. If not, skip over this.
The sniper had a shot at the bad guy holding a gun on one young female and surrounded by another. They were moving towards a car. The sniper had a shot and took it. The bullet entered the bad guys chest on the side and blew his heart out. NOW THE WEIRD STUFF> the bullet then took a right angle 90 degree turn and hit the poor female standing in front of the bad guy. Yep-you read correctly the bullet entered straight into the guys side and came out of the guys chest 90 degrees off from where the entrance hole was. The local ME couldn't figure out this had happened, saw the girl with the bullet hole and figured the guy shot the wrong target. Understandable since the bad guy twitched and the rest of the team made him very dead. It took Martin Fackler ( I believe) the famous MD to track the event. This poor guy went through hell for his "miss". I was told...by a lot of hunter types...that the bullet on their game has been known to follow rib cages after penetrating. I don't know if that is a possible explanation or bull..
The was a police policy problem here too....the guy was prohibited, at that time, from headshots.
BTW Jim D- that shot, in all actually, is a very very lucky day for the bad guy and is severly frowned upon by enlighted police. Someone in Washington state merely switched hands and completed the deed last year too. Other MAJOR concerns also.
UNdude- another word for Lt...hmm usually three or four letters right?
Sounds like dumb **** or *** kisser? Well guys, sorry for the long winded post.

MicTAc <MicTac@AOl.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.199)

If you buy a hunting rifle such as a remington 700 or winchester 70 are there heavy target barrels that you can purchase and put on the rifle?

--------------------------------

That is certainly one approach to the problem, but one that often presents its own complications. First, there are any number of barrels on the market that can be fitted to a 700 Remington with relativly little trouble (note the
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:28:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

buy a hunting rifle such as a remington 700 or winchester 70 are there heavy target barrels that you can purchase and put on the rifle?

--------------------------------

That is certainly one approach to the problem, but one that often presents its own complications. First, there are any number of barrels on the market that can be fitted to a 700 Remington with relativly little trouble (note the "relativly"...I'll get back to that in a moment). These range from the fairly inexpensive such as ER Shaw barrels and the Shilen tubes that Brownells sells for under $200 all the way up to a custom-fitted Krieger or Hart. Some of the higher-end makers make "prefitted" barrels buit I note that some do not. The Winchester model 70 dosent have nearly as many "prefitted" barrels avialable on the market, though any custom barrel maker should be able to fit one of their barrels to a Winchester action with no problems. So, you can get the barrel in just about any contour you want at prices ranging from about $130 uninstalled to $600+ expertly fitted.

The question is, what do you want to do and what sort of result do you desire? If you are looking to install a "prefitted" (prethreaded and short chambered) Remington barrel yourself you can certainly tool up to do it but the action wrench and barrel vice alone can run a couple of hundred dollars, then you get to buy a chamber reamer and headspace gauges. It can easlity cost $400 to get the basic tooling, which aint that bad if you forsee doing ten+ rifles but hard to justify if you are only looking to do one. Now, that is just to torque up a mass-produced barrel to a mass-produced reciever and set the correct headspace with no tweaking. Such a combination may shoot 1/4 MOA but there are still a number of varialbles that have not been elminated and can still keep you rifle from shooting to its full potential. It can beat 1 MOA in most cases and often a fair bit better (but then so will a factory 700VS/Sendero). Beyond that, a savvy home gunsmith can manage to pull some of the basic tricks like lapping the locking lugs to fit the reciever but *realy* fitting up a high-end barrel to an action requires a good lathe and considerable skill with it to precisoon chamber the barrel and then true the action and breech end of the barrel for a perfect fit. This is of course not practical for most folks, hell not even for most gunsmiths.(I'd about kill for even a cheap Chinese lathe at this point). When the guys on this list chatter on about their 1/4 MOA tack-drivers they are generaly either talking about rifles that have had the best barrels fitted by the best armorers or they are shooting rifles that they have lucked into that have no business shooting as well as they do and they know it. Elimination of the element of chance is what costs the big money. So, what do you want to do?

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:31:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.252.167.152)

Mike, Re: MOA+MOA=?
This might sound like nitpicking to some, but a 1 MOA shooter + a 1 MOA rifle does not equal a 2 MOA group. The correct answer would be a 1.4806816 MOA group. For a 1/2 MOA rifle and a 1 MOA shooter the correct answer would be a 1.17058 group. The difference between the 2 would be .3101 MOA or .649 inches at 200 yards.
Please don't ask me to explain this. Some Chineese guy with an abbacus figured this stuff out a long time ago.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 01:05:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.143.42.120)

Just read the Royal Navy story. Anyone remember the joke that ends "Tankity, tankity, tankity" ? Sound familiar?

Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or., USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 01:12:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.13.4)

I think Mike made his point. WHile I moa = 1 moa might not equal 2 moa the point is that inaccuracy/accuracy adds up. The bottom line is that a 1/2 moa gun will help anyone to shoot better as the overall spread will be smaller. This is assuming that the sniper can GROUP. If the individual jerks, bucks, flinches, spanks the trigger etc then not much will help but getting his act together.

I dont know too many people that can shoot as well as their guns capability in "non-benchrest" type conditions.

Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 02:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.168)

I'm no sniper, so I guess I don't understand the term "spank the trigger". Is that like spanking a monkey, or does only a monkey spank a trigger? Count me solidly in the "very accurate rifle" consensus. That's why I had this thing built in the first place. No where for the blame to go except at the guy in the mirror. That having been said, I've seen a pretty cool shot taken at an antelope (ever try to sneak up on one of those? They got look outs!) with a virtually box stock wally world special. I wouldn't have done it myself (can't stand to wound game and then lose it), but a GOOD rifleman can astound and amaze without a bench.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Spanking something in the, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 04:21:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.145)

I hope this comes across right because I am in a poor mood.

Steve, wrong you are. I dont care what some guy wrote. A 1moa shooter plus a 1moa rifle equal an extreme spread of 2moa. That is what matters. You add the varibles and get to the extreme spread. We dont subtract for bullet diameter or holding our breath.

Pablito, I read your post again and I must say it is not your usual style. I would like to know how many LE Shooters you have shot againstor trained to get the idea we can not shoot. I know I can and that I am far from the exception. I played the Carlos Match back in my mind and LE did well. I remember being in the class shoot off and having Rusty take it from me after about thirty minutes, I believe third was a LE guy, man I wish I could remember his name. He was the real deal. I shot the actual match and did poorly by my standards and still managed a third individual. Most comps were either Mil or Civies. LE did well. I have also played the last twenty years back and have not found LE Snipers to be bad shots. A few have been fair but most are truly good for the 100-300 yard stuff. We limit them to about 200 for liabilty reasons and the fact that in most cases we can get closer. Why take a shot in your yard from the next town if you dont have to. Just because we shoot up close does not mean we can not shoot from a distance. Don't confuse that. I know your comments were not directed at me but we are a brotherhood and I take pride in my brothers. This is not to harp on you.

Mike T. Good guys had a few flaws I wont go into on an open board. One thing for sure is it was not an easy shot. Many guys can shoot small groups but when the poop hits the fan the groups go to poop on most.

I remeber a friend who was a hell of a pistol shot. He got into a shoot out in the middle of the street. Rounds going every where. Weapons smoking and when it was all over the only thing killed was an car 20 yards out of the way. No one here knows what you will do until the stuff flies.

Been shot did not like it. Had my patrol car shot. Not fun. Been cut about the same feeling. Not good. Seen guys shot with pistols did not work and had to knock one down after he had three rounds in him . Really did not like that one. Never shot anyone with my sniper rifle. Hope I dont have to and if I do I hope you guys dont find fault with my shooting. Hell of a responsibilty anyone that thinks we LE can not shoot want it?

Undude

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 04:23:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.56)

Kent - Jerks, Spanks, Flinches and Bucks? I think ya surfing some other sites :)

Mike don't forget ammo - sometime we tend to handicap ourselves further than we have to...Opened my eyes to that (again) shooting issue SS109 stuff (C77) then went to 77gr HSM - Same with 175gr .308 in the GM2 -compared to some other offerings.
Better ammo with better gun make me look better (or at least cuts out my excuses)

Have a good'er

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 05:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.136.124)

Mike,

Wow! Well said! It is kinda tough to follow up on a thread after your last message!
I know you are doing it to help humanity, cause they sure don't pay you enough for all that you do!
Thanks for reminding us that it is a little different going up against bad guys than opening up the trunk and sitting down at the bench and squeezing off a couple of rounds at a non-moving paper target!

Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 05:41:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.192.208.6)

Greetings this is my first posting and would like to thank you guys for all the useful info and insite I've found so far. I'm a LEO in SoCal and have most of my exeriance with the .308 and .223. I just started "playing" with my new Rem 700VS 300 Win Mag and have been trying different handloads. I'm wondering if anyone has a handload they think is a good accuracy load for longer ranges (700+ yds). So far I have some good loads but haven't found the great load yet. Anyone willing to point the way will be apprieciated.

In regard to the LEO's shooting abilities I am compelled to comment. I found that most (not all) of the "snipers" in my county, well, suck to be kind. I must admit there are a few who are excellent at what they do. The sniper unit I spend most of my time around has all the high speed stuff you can think of and on any given day are lucky to keep a 2" group at the 100 yd line using .5 MOA capable rifles. I don't even want to talk about a cold bore shot or the fact they have no dope past the 100 yd line. I often out shoot them with my iron sights and when I use my 700 PSS no competition.

I have come to the conclusion that they have read too much Guns and Ammo stuff and believe their own propaganda. Trust me if you're taken hostage here stike a deal with the bad guy...or else. A quick test of a LEO sniper is to mention the longest firing range in area (over 100 yds)and see what their response is. If it's "where's that"? you have you answer.

OK, I'm off my soap box and thanks for any input on the 300 loads.
joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
san diego, ca, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 09:40:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.215.153.180)

We had a short range rifle meet here while back. The 2 winners were identical groups 10 shots in just under 1 1/4" at 200 meters. Cross wind 30 mph. One was a Electronic technician the other was a Respritory therapist by trade. 4th was a Farmer and 5th was LE if I remember correctly.
Does that prove anything. Not much, Generalities are dangerous and
I don't think anyone can say anything convinicing about any particular group of shooter. If there is an inference that someone has the secrets, I doubt it will hold up. Experience and personality are the key along with good eyes. With all this me and all the others are up to about a nickel or dime depending on what you think it's worth.
Me, hell I don't think my microphone is working but .... The only group I ever saw that are consistently good are the dedicated Prairie Dog hunters. We get lots of em in here. They pull trailers with their optiics and gear and crew served rifles. Big game hunters are the worst as a group with Antelope hunters being on top of the pile. Coyote hunters are the most versatile and the hardest to get to stay home on a bad day. They miss a lot but that's because the game they hunt has a higher IQ than they do. LE boys are mix of all of these around here. Some don't want to get their uniforms dirty and some are tougher than Leather, especially the game and fish people.
They are mostly all country boys out here with lots of hunting and shooting under their belt. Some can even honestly qualify with a hand
gun! Me, I don't have much use for a handgun...wasn't that what that feller Quigley said?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 12:30:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Bill,
Well said!! It doesn't make any difference what you do or what your background is, if you want to be good at something and you devote the time and energy to it you will be good at it. Most damn good shooters put in a lot of range time pulling the trigger and they usually reload and they study ballistics because they want to know more about their chosen sport and how to become better at it. I think the reason the LE thing came up is because people "Expect" them to be able to shoot well and because of their job they are held to a higher standard because they may damn well have to pull the trigger on someone. Just like 'lito and others have said when "They" see someone who is in that positon and they can't shoot to the "Standard" we have set for ourselves it is upsetting to them. I have seen some military snipers who weren't exactly the cream of the crop either and as Bill said the average varmint hunter would shoot rings around him but does that mean they can't do their job, No it doesn't, its just that we hold him to a higher standard and we expect more from him because of his job. Like Mike said, there are a lot of damn tough LE snipers out there and you would be hard pressed to out shoot them from 100 to 200yds. granted many of them don't shoot past that range and I believe thats a mistake but thats not my call. I think if you can hit a target at 500yds on a regular basis the confidence is there when you need to shoot at a much shorter range even when under pressure.
I, like Mike and Jerry and probably the rest of you, want just as acccurate of a rifle as I can get. I want it to be way better than "ME" and if I have to spend hours neck turning cases to get the extra tenth, I will, because I demand the best from my equiptment and myself. The only person I worry about beating me is myself, if I get beat by someone else in a match and I shot what I am capable of then I need to practice more to become better but if I beat myself with a "Brain Fart" or equiptment failure then Iam hard to live with for a while(HA)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 13:27:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Well, the only thing this little debate would seem to heve proven is that there is an insane amount of variation in the training and skills of the nation's LE snipers.

And equipment too, though I imagine this is less of a problem than personel: you cant order qualified shooter through the mail. :)

Saw a "sniper" rifle that a small town force here in SC turned in on trade to a local LE distributor last year: a wooden stocked 700 Varmint in .223 with a 3-9X VariX-II in Weaver mounts. Not exacly the latest and greatest. At least they *finaly* did get rid of it.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Columbia, SC, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 14:20:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

Joe, you opened the door so here goes. POST Standards for a sniper are 1moa to 200 yards to pass the course. Thats a max of a 2" group at 200 yards. Every agency in my area holds that standard as what it takes to stay on the team. If you see guys on your team that cant do it talk to the admin/Sergeant of the team. If you want to see this standard applied come to one of my classes. Heck if you are LE just get yourself to my departments next sniper training program and shoot with use. I promise to make you and everyone else earn the title of sniper.

I remember when I first started at this, San Jose would take the new MERGE Guys and assign them to the sniper rifles. If they could shoot well, they stayed. If not straight back to Patrol. Seemed harsh then. Seems great now.

I shoot in the Police Olympics, well Police and Fire now, when ever the games are in No. Calif. They HP scores have many guys 470 and above in both Service and Match Rifle Classes, on a 500 point course of fire. On a real 600 yard range. The scores about the same as the Regional Championships that all can compete in. What that proves? Hell I dont know. Maybe no one can shoot.

I have shot a few of the Police Sniper Matches in my time. The matches tend to be geared toward the shorter ranges, but the last one I went to over 100 snipers were there. I can tell you I was impressed by the groups turned in. The only shooting abilities I noticed were that most did not know how to use a sling. That is not just LE though as many schools dont teach sling shooting. As I said before LE is great at groups and overall not great at wind reading. Given some time on a longer course a good group shooter can learn wind and trajectory. Mechanics of shooting are the same all that is needed is doing the math. I dont know where anyone gets the idea that this shooting thing is that hard and we are magical for being able to do this. If you can make change and pick your nose with your trigger finger you can learn to shoot! The trick is not to mind F... yourself into thinking you can not do it.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 14:34:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.71)

Folks,

GREAT POINTS from everybody,on shooter skill and equipment!

I guess it starts with the foundation (learning fundamental skills), gets the exterior walls(LOTS & lotsa practice), gets a roof( additional training-MORE PRACTICE!), AND finally the interior ( reloading and rifle fine tuning).

OH-MY-GAWD sounds like building a house, or eight!

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

CHAO!

PS I just got another "Expert" certificate ( with that gold stickee thingee in corner)in the mail from work, FOR SALE - cheap! :-)
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 17:48:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.41)

I own a savage tactical in 308 and a weatherby vanguard in 7mm rem mag. I shoot between 200 yards and out to 1000 yards for target shooting. When I purchased the 308, the guy at the store recommended a 300 win mag savage tactical. I know that the 300 offers a wider range of bullet weights and is less suseptable to wind at long ranges. I haven't shot the weatherby very much but plan to. I have been told that the 7mm burns out barrels faster than the 300. The secret service uses the 7mm rem and are switching to the 300. Looking at ballistics, the 7mm rem, 300 and the upper load of a .3006-there doesn't seem to be A LOT of difference. If I considered a savage tactical in 300 it only comes with a 24" barrel-does the 24" vs 26" for 300 make a difference other than 200 fps in velocity? Would you stay with the 308 and try to develop accurate handloads say 168 hpbt sierras for the 7mm of consider a 300? I am not sure why the 300 seems to be very popular because it really isn't that much more powerful unlike the weatherby 300 mag or 300 ultra mag. Can anyone provide me with some advice?

Ken <msplegis3@qis.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 18:21:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.150.97.153)

Ken,
First off, I am sorry I didn't get back to you on your e.mail but my computer is having problems and will flat just not work once in awhile locking me out. I would stay with a 308 if your going to be doing a lot of shooting and trying to learn the long range game. The Mags are nice but as you said they are hard on barrels. If you haven't gathered it from our discussions on LE snipers this week you need to "SHOOT" and shoot a lot to get good in this business. Its better to learn on the 308 and then later on if you think you need a mag go for it. The Magnums work best with the 26" barrels they need at least that for the amount of powder they burn, other wise its burnt outside the barrel in flash. Also I don't know where you got your info that the 300WinMag is not as powerful as the 300Weatherby. They are so close you can't really tell the differenc except for the extra powder it takes for the Weatherby to shoot with or eek past a 300Win by a few feet a second. The 300 Win. is also inherently accurate. I have shot both across the cronogaph and i know of what I speak. Many times the 300 Winchester was faster, don't go by what you read in loading manuals it not always the case in real life performance. Also you would not loose 200fps probably around 50 to 60fps would be my guess. If you want to shoot long range at just targets only there are other calibers out there that will perform like the 300s with a lot less bang and not so much recoil. Stay with the 308 if you have it and go to the 175MKs or push the 168s to around the 2750fps range with Varget and you will stay supersonic to 1000 with them. Hope this helps. PS (Didn't mean to up set any WEATHERBY fans just what I have found)
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 19:16:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Mike, Re:(Steve, wrong you are.)
Sorrry, Mike, I don't think I am wrong in this case. The problem statment you gave is a semi complicated math problem involving 2 random variable generators and the solution would have to include how these two random variable generators interface with each other as well as the aiming point of the target. I will admit that it is entirely possible for a 1 MOA shooter and a 1 MOA rifle to shoot a 2 MOA group,(once in a blue moon!) It is equally likely that the same shooter + rifle combo will shoot a screamer, (once in a blue moon) Of course, give that same rifle to the Chinaman, and if he is feeling in harmony with the universe, he might be able to pull off this stunt more often than that. Your simple first grade answer to your problem statment does not give a clue as to what will happen on average. My answer does.
You live so close to Las Vegas, that I worry about you! I hope you never go to the casino's up there. The Law of Averages that rule those places will spank you but good. :-)
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 22:23:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.145.165)

Yeah, Steve. Mike's simple first grade answer is wrong. As you say, there's only two random variable generators: the rifle, the shooter, unknown range, wind from an unknown direction (switching?), altitude, ammo, oops! Shouldn't go on, named my two already! Of course, we all know that a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards will shoot 10 inches at 1000 yards. Yeah, right. Take it as it was meant. The gist of the statement was that a guy with a 1/2 MOA hold won't shoot 1/2 MOA with a shot out 10 MOA Mauser, and a 1/2 MOA "Jerry gun" will only shoot as good as it's shooter, no better. By the way, I live a heck of a lot closer to Vegas than Mike does, and I'll tell you the odds on Bacarat or Roulette any time you want. Besides, the way I see it, Mike's "been there, done that". Probably not in a physics lab or stat classroom though. Experience speaks.
COSINE COSINE COSINE!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 22:48:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.138)

Steve and Mike - let it go!
I was playing with some stats software, and on paper, Steve is right -(hey who knew my minor would ever have some use) but from what I have witnessed (outside the classroom) I would go with Mike's description -and I would stay away from stats in this case - theorectically the wobble on the 1Moa shooter and the variance of the 1Moa gun may not add to 2Moa but looking at the paper it usually seems to. Until a computer comes out and shoots with me that what I'l continue to believe
Besides a better gun will raise confidence, usually inspiring the user to greater results ontop of the gun!!!

Jerry - gun is disappearing into the great vortex knows as the Can-US border - if all else fails tomorrow I am going over to bust some heads. NAFTA my ass!
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 22:54:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.147.173)

Once upon a time, I programmed a computer to shoot groups for me inside a specified group size. There were random xy coordinates and it was all pretty simple but it was amazing how many one holers 3 and 5 shot groups I got with specs like 3" groups and things. It was all simple minded and simple random generators nothing to take into account shooter error at all but it was fun to fool with. I did it just to see what the odds were without putting numbers to them.

Also went into Lyman's loading manual and plotted every common cal on a sheet of paper in a 10 mph wind with the average velocities of all the max loads printed for a given caliber. The range was 500 yards as I remember it and we just drew on paper where the bullet should hit.
Winner .300 Weatherby Magnum 2nd Place .300 win mag. Worst .222 and next .223. (didn't do crap stuff just reasonable cartridges)/ Just somethin to do on a Windy Day. Plot the Hottest one you can think of in the upper right hand corner (left 10mph wind). See how many are off the paper wind or elevation. Then notice how close together they all are after all at 500 yards. Do a 1000 if you have a large sheet of paper. Physics majors can skip this.. it's for Redneck Snipers only.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 01:00:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Steve, I am all ears explain the math. Bring the equation on so we can all be schooled. When I speak of a 1MOA Shooter. I mean the shooter is only capable or 1MOA on the average. Unless a fluke happens. That means he has a natural wobble or poor shooting technique that equates to 1MOA. This does not really say the size of the group. He may luck into smaller groups when the wobble works to his advantage or larger when it goes against him. Now you put a rifle in there that is only capable of 1moa groups, on the average. Any rifle can luck into a small group once in awhile. I mean a rifle that shoots 1MOA from a vice and add the 1MOA wobble of the shooter, 2moa will be the Extreme Spread. I dont mean average because average is crap. You plan for the worst case and that is a 2MOA Group. You see I can not go with the average when lives are on the line. I go with extreme spread, so I dont clip your little nose off as I take out the bad guy. I ask you, do you want me to play for the extreme spread or average when its your nose on the line? You can play with with your figures all you like.

As to my first grade schooling, I learned enough not to call anyone a "Chinaman" Damm dude get in this decade! Insult me all you want but get a grip. How would you like it if some one called you a wanna bee? I have no idea if you are the best trained sniper in the world and am not tring to insult you. I just get chaffed when someone quotes something from something they read and can not even explain it in detail. God I hate Peterson Publishing for all the crap they print.

By the way I won a grand the last time to Las Vegas. I also live about 700 miles away from it. Well 700 by the map. What does that figure out to in your math?

If someone figured that the averages figure to 1.5 MOA in the above equation, wow I am impressed. I just go with what the guys shoot.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 01:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.58)

Well, I gotta beef, and since it's long range oriented, I'm gonna vent here. Let me say that I'm gonna give them the CHANCE to make it right, but somehow sincerely doubt they will. UPS came by the house at 18:30, with my rifle, so here's the lookie see after an hour or so of fondling.

Scenario: guy calls McMillan and orders a M3A stock, with adjustable saddle type cheek piece, adjustable length of pull, for the M1A (NO AUTO CUTS!) in desert cammo, with an extra sling stud set up for a bipod. FOUR MONTHS LATER, no luck, even though he was told "6 to 8 weeks delivery". Many calls later he's put "ahead of the line" by a rather nice gent, can't recall his name at the second, on the production line. Some weeks later, this guy is sweating because he NEEDS that rifle for a class given by some cool guys. McMillan says they will ship straight to the gunsmith to cut some time off, so our hero ships out the metal. About a month goes by, and now I get my rifle back from the smith. WRONG FRIGGIN STOCK!!! It's a M3A, in desert, so my smith assumed it was right. No adjustable cheek piece. Can you say UUUGGHGHGH!!!!???? The cheek weld (for me, I know it's a very subjective thing) is IDEAL for the iron sights, sucks rocks for the scope. Not quite as bad as using a scope with their M1A stock, but ALMOST! Now this stock is EXPERTLY bedded, and WAY cool. But I'm totally screwed for cheek weld on this class, and, of course, really pissed about it. And of course, I paid extra for the adjustable cheek piece that I didn't get.

Anyone out there got some good encouraging words for those who wanna do battle with McMillan? I know, gotta keep it moderately civil, gonna want more stocks from them in the future. But you can bet your favorite trigger spanker that I'm sure the hell gonna INSPECT any more stocks before it's used!

Guess we'll see how much "customer satisfaction" means to McMillan!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Virtually complete in my bummedness, at least I'm in the, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 02:20:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.183)

I am not sure if it is old news to every one here, but I just recevived a reply from Ron Fuchs, Porduction Manager at MacMillan Bros.Rifle Company, to an e-mail that I sent to Gale MacMillan . He said Gale MacMillan is "gravely ill with cancer". I figured you all would like to know if you do not already.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West, PA, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 02:21:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.142)

Bravo,

I have done business with McMillan a couple of times in the past. Never a hint of a problem. The second time I ordered a stock they told me 6-7 weeks to get it done, but they called two weeks later, and said someone had ordered one just mine, cancelled their order,
and would I like that one? They always had time to answer my questions about their products. Their stocks are very durable to say the least. I will likely order from them again.

Hope it works out for you.

Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 02:56:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.197.206)

Manners:) When I was in grade one or two, I heard the F*** word - so impressed was I, with that rather interesting word, I repeated it - in front of my mother. Well, fifteen minutes and about 2.5 bars of soap later I learned an important lesson.

I don't know anyone here (except for some lurkers), in a face to face way - but that doesn't give me a right to degrade or insult (less I end up on the wrong end of someone who can shoot like Mike [tee hee])

If I goof a post - I expect to be told, and corrected not insulted.

We could trade insult for hours -- but hey thats what Ex-wives are for.

--Jerry thanks for the quick call, and for all the customer service - Postal and Custom entities can swallow anything, the trick is getting it out of the belly of the beast w/o putting your head in its mouth as well.

Kevin now hops off soap box, and offers it to the next waiting windbag
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 03:22:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.203)

Ok Mike I am willing to share but first lets recap.
You said, and I will quote this, " If you add a 1moa shooter to a 1moa rifle you get a 2moa group. If you
add a 1/2moa rifle to a 1moa shooter you have a 1.5moa group. At 200
yards the difference is 3 or 4moa and thats a difference that is
significant."

I don't think that statemnet is true and said so.
A variable with an extreme spread of 1 MOA, + another varaible with an extreme spread of 1 MOA does not yield a result of 2 MOA, (well almost never.)

The textbook formula is V1 (squared) + V2 (squared) = sum (squared) Find the square root of the sum and you will have the answer.
By the way, Bravo, you can add as many variables as you like, it is not limited to two. Mike only mentioned two so thats all I dealt with.

Now, Mike you are talking about performing a worst case sensitivity analysis. Smoke and mirrors? That is properly done with standard deviations of the variables involved, not extreme spreads.

Now that I have shared the formula, (you can find it it any good math book), will you share yours on how you came up with a 3 or 4 Moa difference (6 t0 8 inches) at 200 yards that you mentioned above? It sounds a little like crap at first glance to me.

I know exactly what you mean about flukes.
Who was that guy who had the ND at the Carlos Shoot during the stalking phase last year? Was he LE? If so, I wonder how many sub 1/2 MOA groups he had to fire to bring his 1/2 MOA average back up after that little BOO BOO?

Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 03:37:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.121)

Wal; now lookeehere ya see! If a man comes from China ya can't call him a Chinaman. So by Golly if a Red neck comes from Oklahoma you can't call him an Oklahoman. So that's why you prune pickers call us Okies. Yeah be careful there, cause that W.B. in my name stands for wanna bee and don't ya'll forget it. I tell you what I wanna bee,
I wanna bee in the damn ten ring. Mike, you're a gentleman rifleman and a fine shot I hear tell, but when I get a cheap shot. Hell, I just take it! Then I apologize later. Let's see in Califorknee they are Californyuns. Once upon a time there was a man named Jed!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 04:07:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Allright;now for some serious hillbilly mathematics.
Follow me now.
If a shooters wobble causes a 1" spread that means he's only 1/2" from where he thinks he is gonna hit. Cause if he wobbles a inch one way he could wobble an inch the other way and that'd be 2 inches right?
If a rifle shoots a 1" group that means it's only 1/2" off it's cross hair. If it was a 1" off his cross hair it'd be a 2" group.
So 1/2" wobble and 1/2" barrel vibe = 1" groups.
Can you grass hoppers tell me what's wrong with this picture?
Just proves you can prove anything on target paper!

W.B. Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 04:21:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Steve, I did not know you were at the match. How well did you finish? The guy that had a blank discharge was me. It happened after I had fired my two rounds and when I cycled a third round through the chamber after crawling in the grass for a couple of hours. I had a bunch of crap in the trigger area. No one knew what happened so I told the Walker what happened and asked for a penalty. They did not give me one. I cleaned out all the crap and it never gave me problems again. You crawl into a rose bush and see how much stuff gets inside your weapons trigger. It was the only decent cover I could find not already taken. Now if you were there why did you wait so long to say something. I could have answered your question straight forward. Of course you would have had to ask it straight forward. Not the BS way you just did. Sounds more like some guy tring to take an advantage with a limited amount of second hand information to me. Are you just repeating something you heard again. If so come up with something on your own. I do not agree with how you look at the MOA thing. You dont agree with how I do. It does not really matter. If you want to talk further on this you have my email.

Bill no problem with the cheap shot.
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 04:33:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.21)

Once a wise old (to me then) Sergeant, told me that being a sniper was 30% shooting and 70& fieldcraft (probably why he is still wise and older) Live to fight another day -----

Any ideas on how to lighten my ghillie - it was made to Ontario specs. more of a decidious (non-conifers i.e. trees that loose leaves - too last to get spell check or a dictionary) forest look and now I'm here in Alberta most of our terrain is grassland. Any paints or dyes that won't lump or leave some sort of nasty, noxious residue (or make me more of a fire hazard) -- or am I stuck, and should save it for the woods and create another? Unfurled it last week and realised my fat ass was even more obvious, in it, here.

Mike - two types of people, those who have had a ND, and those who probably will while laughing at the first. Truth: there's a Mike Miller in the 1 PPCLI recce pl who is famous for ND's w/ Artic mitts (x3 in one day -not blanks) - should I say which one I was, while laughing at him:)

Anyway off to bed - need my rest to go throttle my Rice rifle out of Canada Customs or the Postal clowns tomorrow
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 04:57:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.143.208)

Guys

Has anyone got any experience with the IBA accurized Remington PSS?

All opinion welcomed.

Justin
Justin <srg@q-net.net.au>
Perth, Western Australia, - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 08:30:25 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.91.65.250)

On lightening ghillie suit. First off, I'd like to state, when I was in military I wasn't a sniper, but this is what I've found works best. I received a ghillie suit that was closer to a wooly-bugger-ghillie-monster suit. I stripped off about 2/3 of the burlap, left enough for a good base, then make the rest up with natural garnish from the area I'm in, sage brush, grass, small limbs with foilage on them. Makes ghillie much smaller and easier to pack, and natural foilage won't retain as much moisture from environement as burlap will.

Just a little something to muddy up the waters on the 1 MOA shooter with a 1 MOA rifle;) Say the shooter is this Zen Monk who is in tune with the universe. He'll know when the rifle wobbles 1 MOA right, so he'll wobble 1 MOA left, and vice-versa, or he'll wobble high when rifle wobbles low, etc. Now you have repetative shots through the same hole ;) sorry, couldn't resist

RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 10:57:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.234.20.153)

Steve(NATO-Bright),

Are you competing in the Sniper Rendezvous this year?????

It would be pretty cool to have you shoot that old Springfield 03'A4 in the match. Maybe we could team you up with 'Lito? :-o

Mikey, RELAX - breathe in then ouuut, theeere feel better?

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 11:32:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.32)

Not to muddy the water on the MOA issue but I read and interesting article a while back where it was argued that a MOA rifle is "Technically" a rifle that when shooting at a dot will keep all rounds with in 1 MOA of that dot "NOT" the center to center measurment of the group. In other words its considered 1 MOA if the round you fire lands with in 1 MOA of what your shooting at no matter if its high or low, left or right. So actually a rifle that shoots 1" groups around the dot is actually a half MOA rifle??? Since were not BR shooters who measure groups sizes and usually only fire a round or two wouldn't this be a more accurate test of a tactical rifle and shooter, to be able to always hit within a half inch or inch of what we shoot at everytime??? Interesting thought to chew on, whats everyones thoughts on that issue???
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 13:24:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Semantics check: from hence forth, the rifle shall be qualified as a "clanger" or "non-clanger" at a given distance. Hopefully I have a 1000 yard clanger ;-)
Sorry, had to do it. Gotta go spank something, oh! must be a new trigger!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 13:41:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)

I like this board! I have come over from ar15.com. I have gone from from an AR to strictly bolt rifles. (There are not as many wets in the panhandle as there are in South Texas. ARs make a bigger impression when you load them up for town.)
I'm sure I will have some questions and comments in due time but until then I will lurk. I just thought I would anounce myself.

I will be having a .300 Whisper type rifle made in the next couple of months and would like to discuss this with anyone who is interested.

Thanks, ZED
Zed Stewart <zhdstew@nts-online.net>
Panhandle of, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 13:47:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.131.151)

Pat;
Your definition of a 1MOA rifle would be in my definition a 2MOA rifle because 1" on any side of your aiming point would give you a 2" group. Measuring the group outside and subtracting the bullet dia. is a standard. I think changing how a group is measured would muddy the waters and no one would know for sure what your talking about. It would make a 1 MOA rifle a real piece of junk and the only good rifle would be a 1/4" rifle.
Just my two cents worth.
Kevin;
Great news on finding where your rifle was hiding.

Jerry
Jerry Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 14:34:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.72.65.104)

Kevin, yes I have heard that about AD or ND's. I was thinking about this last night and tried to estimate how many rounds I have fired(this was my first ND)in the my life. The number has to be over 250,000. I have been very lucky. Two guns blew up from bad parts or slam fires. No Unintenional Discharges until the blank at Storm. Heck the only thing I did wrong on that was cycle the round through the action. I mean everyone else also dragged the rifle through all the stuff. What choice did you have. I unbagged about 50 yards away from the FFP and shielded the action as much as possible. It made me think about making a half bag to cover the action area. I have worked on it for awhile but can not come up with something that works well. I have talked with Eagle and they are going to be making a half bag that Trigger 50 designed. Everyone that has seen it loves it. I hope it will keep me from having another problem when crawling. I understand after talking with Rick Boucher,this has happened many times before but I can not speak from experience on this one. First time I saw it. I am just happy it was a blank and no one other than my pride was hurt.

Well back to making slings
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 14:43:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.84)

Zed, I'm almost afraid to ask this, but what is a "wet"? Hint, I'm from Texas, and have a ton of family in San Antonio, Refugio, and Corpus Christi.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or., USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 14:57:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.9.24)

Any ideas where I can obtain M1A 20 round magazines for my rifle? someone mentioned the state rifle programs, or the federal program that will allow you to purchase the M1 garand after completing the course.
Ron Buell <rwb1@citcom.net>
Pisgah Forest, NC, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 15:56:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.144.234.74)

UnDude...

Quickly... yes, I have instructed LE... the Yonkers, NY PD, and the Stanford CT, PD... and spent 9 years on my town's dept, as an "on call" SWO. (Got fired last summer when the Democrats got in!)... and have shot against them, and with very few exceptions, they were poor.

I have found that some LE are very dedicated, but many are just getting by. But... at the same time, I'm not disagreeing with you.
You have to understand this is a regional issue. I live in the northeast. In the NY city PD, 99+% of the officers never touched a gun, before the came to the dept... in my area (CT), most of the officers, don't shoot recreationally, and don't hunt, and don't own a gun, other than their service guns.

When you talk about the LE at the Carlos match, you have to remember that these are "driven" guys, that are spending their own money for the match (and probably for the rifle), just to BE THERE!
I remember the little guy from Opalacha Fla, the one that had to repeat everything 3 times so you could understand him because of his accent... I'd hate to have him following me through the 'glades... but the officers in my town, wouldn't want to get their shoes wet.

When I lived in Pensylvinia, every cop I knew was a shooter all his life, and hunted every season (and sometimes other times too;)... they were very comfortable with all kinds of firearms... I had a LEO over to my house here in CT, and there was a Colt .45 Gold Cup on the desk, and he asked to see it, and didn't know how to open the slide... sorry, Mike, but that's lame!

Frank Lautenberg (US senator NJ)... the author of the Gun Show bill, said what he wants, it to break the gun culture by stopping young people from learning about guns, and if he can do that, then he has won, because they will grow up not caring about guns... it's this very philosophy that I'm talking about. You get cops that didn't get exposed to guns and shooting as kids, and it just is one of the things the have to use... you take cop that grew up in rural areas, or know guns for some other reason, and they will take there shooting very seriously.

Bravo...
Call McMillen, they are very good about stuff like that. After your course (the teacher is the one in the Blonde Ghillie suit), send it back to them, and they will either install the cheekpiece, or replace the stock, and bed it for you, and they do beau-damn-dations bedding!
Mean while, stop spanking that Monk... er, trigger!
COSINE COSINE COSINE!... to you too!!

PereR...
Does the survivor get to keep the Springfield '03-A4?? ;)... if not, no thanks!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 15:57:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.83)

Wet = Wetback = Illegal alien
I am from west Texas but I haven't heard the term used much in the past 15 years. There was a time when everyone used it, more because it was correct than racism. When they tightened the border and hiring laws in the mid 80's most people stopped using the term as it became incorrect, not to mention the advent of political correctness.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 16:04:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.3.247)

Jerry,
I agree with you and have always measured my rifles capability this way and would not own one that will not shoot under 1" center to center for 5 shots and this includes hunting rifles. I demand around the .5 and under for my heavy barrels. I just thought it was interesting and if you really think about it, he did have a point esp when shooting the "One round" sniper theory. I though, like you, would not be happy to shoot within an inch of what I am shooting at, if I shoot at a button or the eye I damn well better hit there or I consider it a miss. To me a 6" group at 600yds is unexceptable, if it gets much over 4.5" I start looking to see why. I understand that wind will get you once in awhile or a "Flyer" bites you but the main group had better be consistant or theres a problem with me or the equiptment. Just my opinion on it.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 16:13:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Hey all. Long time.
I see things are going on well here as usual -- with a lot of agreeing to disagree, which if done right, helps everyone learn from the conversation.

I am going to jump all the way back to the top of the roster to comment on a question posed by Pete Robertson. Pete, you asked about the SS10x42. With over 120 moa of adjustment (or looked at another way, over 60 moa from mecanical zero in either direction) you can just leave the thing in a normal mount and still get out past 1000 yards. Your exercise in a canted mount seems a bit pointless and unecessarily expensive with this particular scope. With a .308 rifle the most you'll need above your 100 yards zero is around 42 minutes to 45 minutes to get to 1000 yards. In other words, just mount the scope and enjoy.

I guess I chose to comment on this question because I just finished up the updated review for the Tasco line of sniper scopes now marketed exclusively by SWFA. Guys, if you can not afford a $600+ scope and like fixed power, this scope series really is a value. And before any na-sayers poo-poo it, keep in mind it is build by a subcontractor to government specs, not by Tasco themselves. Then of course the fact that is actually won a gov'mint contract doesn't hurts its rep either...

Another comment at the top of the roster got me to smile. Rich B's commentary on sniper & TOW gunners. It brought back some fond memories of me in my younger and crazier days. He outlines well the thoughts that went through my mind when as a TOW gunner in the MDARNG I had a rifle custom built just for this purpose. MY intent was to keep it in the TOW vehicle for a rainy day if we were ever deployed. Kind of funny looking back on it now...but when you learn that a sabot from a T-72 can travel at over 5,000fps and your large signature TOW takes 17 SECONDS to get to max range, you sort come up with these novel ideas! Anyway, it was a fun project and I would most likely have gotten grief for trying to take it along but as a hard core shooting enthusiast at 26, I didn't stop to think about the fact that the real snipers could have done the chore for us.

And finally, for those of you who care, it looks like the PX will be back up soon. I'll be taking plastic this time so if you are about to toss some money at tactical gear, wait a week or two and see if the prices suit you!

Scott <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 16:18:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 192.91.146.34)

Mike - re: ND's, crap in trigger - cover it with guntape (what you people seem to refer to as 100mph tape) a small piece will keep all the nasties out. Also I've seem some rubber trigger covers for the 700 (don't know if they really work) As far as ND's go - well they happen like it or not. They are a BIG $ fine in our Army today - blank or live (nothing is accidental or unintentional -so don't go PC on me). Seen some out of utter stupidity - some out of miscommunication, and of course some out of tiredness and delusion. Seem way more ND's from Mil, than LE (and a lot from them)but fatigue etc are more of a Mil issue than most LE -- Remember remove mag from before you clear it (dummy). If your rifle goes bang when it shouldn't have it is your responsibility (even if your are almost pissing yourself laughing).
Use everything as a leaning experience -Hey better at Storm in front of observers, than at work when it would have really been a F'up

Jerry - Yep I'm happier than a Pig in S**T, figure I'll go camp-out at the gunshop till it arrives.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 16:18:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.136.134)

Hello to all,

I have been wacthing and reading your comments for about 6 months
or so and have learned a ton of great stuff.I am not LE or Mil,just
a long range hunter and shooting buff.I wanted to comment on Bravo's
problem with McMillan.About a year ago i ordered one of their rifles
and was told i had a 6 month wait.When the dealer called to tell me that my gun was in i dropped everything. My gun was 6 weeks early.It is exactly what i ordered as well.Ron did a great job.To all that are looking to get a long-range rifle this is the one to get. My gun is a 338-378 Weatherby. I get .4" groups with the 300gr MK and over 3700fps and .6" with the 180gr Nosler BT! The reason i ordered this gun was i got tired of chasing elk. Sorry for the long post.Keep up the great workand keep your powder dry.

MSK
MSK <michaels.keith@att.net>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 18:02:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.73.161.110)

Pablito, OK I understand you speak from experience in your area on the LE guys. Makes me sad to think anyone witha potential life in thier hands does not take it seriously. I'll trust you on this one. Now what is all this about a blond Ghillie? It was perfect for Calif and after I painted it and added the right amount of garnish it was perfect for WV. If anyone showed up to Calif in the spring greens in the summer hills they would stick out like a sore thumb. For the record no one every saw me on the comp stalk, the side blast gave me away from the Night Hawk. A rose bush wiggled. They still could not see me or the weapon just saw the bush to one side move after my second shot. I dont remember did you guys get off both shoots without being seen? Stalking is something that has not been historically taught in LE. I learned from that experience and work at it regularly now. I started putting stalking into my classes because of the comp.

Kevin, no excuse here. Tape sounds like a good idea. I will use that next time

Shot Group/MOA thing: I have gotten a few emails asking for a detailed explanation of this. What Steve and several other are talking about is the classic Bench Rest Explanation of MOA. They take the overall size of a group and minus the diameter of the bullet. That gets you the group size in Bench Rest terms.

In Precision HRT type work I ang others plan for the extremes. When I talk of a shooter capable of 1MOA I mean a shooter that will shoot a 1MOA group no more than 1MOA at the extreme edge from the point of aim. Now that does not factor the rifles capabilties. That is just the shooter. So if he/she makes a 1MOA mistake right in aiming the group will start at the 1MOA mistake and open from there.

Now that the shooter has already made a 1MOA mistake we have to look at the rifle. A rifle that is capable of only 1MOA will be added to the shooters error. So we take the 1moa mistake and add the 1moa group to it. Lets say in the worst case the shooter shoots 1moa to the right and the rifles opens up to the right 1MOA, the group will now have the extreme edge round 2moa to the right. That is how I look at it. If I am giving the shooter permission to shoot I know we have to have a 2moa clear area to avoid hitting a hostage.

Now in another case the shooter can make the 1moa mistake to the right and the gun can open up 1moa to the left and we would be dead center by a fluke.

The classic Bench Rest way of looking at this does not work in real world. I am asking for you to except a Pardigm shift here. Bench Resters all but take out the human aspect of this. We can not do that.

I hope I have been able to explain things with my limited first grade education so all can understand. Bottom line is get as good a rifle as you can afford if you do it for real. The better the shooter the less you need the great rifle.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 18:12:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.44)

Hi, Nice Site! I have noticed that most of the literature regarding sniping by the U.S. Military during the Vietnam conflict involves the U.S. Marine Corps. I was wondering if there are any good sources of literature about the U.S. Armys sniping operations during that period, so far I havent been able to find very much, which seems strange since I believe that the highest ranking (In terms of confirmed kills) U.S. military sniper of all time was with the 9th division of the U.S. Army in Vietnam, it just seems that they would have some things to say.
Also I have seen references that state that there were some sucessful snipers with the U.S. Navy during Vietnam, Yet I have never really heard anything else about them, who were they? Can somebody more knowledgeable than myself please shed some light on this.
Thanks, Al
Al <tyae29@altavista.com>
San Diego, CA, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 18:26:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.34.244.63)

Al,
The Navy snipers were probably Navy SEALs. It is my understanding the Marines were used more as "Snipers" than the Army was. Many of the Army snipers were not used in the actual role as you invision them. They operated more with large units and shot at a lot closer ranges, probably more like desiginated marksman. There were some though depatedng on the units that did go out in teams to hunt as the Marines did. I think it depended a lot on the units they were attached to. Like most specialized units they a lot of times get misused at least that is my understanding. There may be others who can shed more light on the Army snipers. I am sure they were like everyone else who served in Vietnam, your war was different than the next guys depending on when and where you were at.
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 19:03:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

Mike:

I think there is a problem of definitions. By your last post, a 1MOA shooter will actually shoot groups no larger than 2 MOA across. That is, a 1MOA right and a 1 MOA left. When added to the 1 MOA rifle, MEASURED THE SAME WAY, you do get a combinations that will shoot 2 MOA left and 2 MOA right, for a 4 MOA group.

Mathematically, if we use extreme spread as a measure of group size, a 1 MOA shooter and rifle will group into 2 MOA. If the shooter wobbles right to the maximum 0.5 MOA, there is an even chance that the rifle shoots right also 0.5 MOA, for a 1 MOA deviation from center. An equal wobble left will yield a 2 MOA group.

When talking about averages and standard deviations, it gets much more complicated. The average of the combination is going to be a combination of factors with a nasty equation including the averages and standard deviations of both rifle and shooter. In essence, for reasonable numbers, the average of the combination will be about 1.5 times the average of the shooter and rifle, if both are the same.

THE ABOVE IS A GROSSLY SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION.

We can go into the gory details, but why bother. Mathematically, Steve is correct. In real life, what Mike said always seems to happen. Personally, I think a poor shooter with a good gun can improve, a good shooter with a poor gun can't. At least 30% of the people at public ranges would be better served by spending $200 on ammunition than on their rifle.

Karl (who couldn't resist sticking his nose in)
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 19:13:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 134.84.148.151)

I will give everyone a basic introduction to statistics. I used quite a bit of statistics for my masters degree, so I am familiar with the statistics involved for this discussion.

Let us assume that a 1 moa rifle or shooter keeps 95% of the shots within a .5 moa radius of a point. A normal distribution says that 95% of shots occur within 2 standard deviations (SD) of the true value, for our purposes, the point of aim. This means that a 1 moa rifle has a SD of 0.25 moa. To determine the SD of a sum of two variables, use the equation SD(1+2)=square root (SD(1)^2+SD(2)^2). So our rifle/shooter combination gives us a SD of .353 moa. The radius of our 95% group is then .706 moa. This translates into a group size of 1.412 moa.

Mike's example that if the shooter jerks the bullet to the right 1 moa and the rifle pulls the bullet to the right 1 moa, is just as likely as jerking the bullet to the right 1 moa and the rifle pulling to left 1 moa resulting in no error. The theory says that both of these extreme cases are impossible and that is why 1 + 1 does not equal two in the theoretical sense.

Remember this is standard probability theory and does not necesarily translate into real life. Since we are dealing with Mr. Murphy and lives are at stake in most, if not all, real life scenarios, I think Mike's method is more accurate under field conditions when lives are on the line.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 20:12:17 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.2.60)

Back when metalic Sillouete shooting was in it's heyday, we shot something called Hunters pistol. It was off hand at 100 meters max at a target about 6moa. There was an old cowboy who brought in this old
.357 Ruger Blackhawk to every match. Iorn sights no less. He shot against Scoped Wichita Single shots that would tear same holes and was constantly accused of Sandbagging down to AA class. He was unbeatable. I once asked him what kind of group that gun would shoot at 100meters and he said "got no idea, never tried it!" SOB didn't know he could miss. Just adding a little paint!
W.B. Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 21:01:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

UnDudeness...

We all know that California Blonds have more fun... even with bullet holes in them, and pins in their legs ;)

Ken "Chainsaw" Hunter, and I were the only team to get off both shots on the stalk, and not be seen. We shot Rick B. as I recall, and ate thorns like you.

Zed...
If, by "Wets" you mean wetbacks, or Spanish, you might walk lightly on that one, Cowboy... there are a few "Wets' on this site, and if you go to the sniper match in September, you will be shooting against a few "Wets"... can you spell "AD", or F-R-A-G-G-E-D...

On the 1-moa statistics...
I'm gonna stick up for the UnDude on this one... not because the math was right, (cuz it isn't, but he's a California Blond, so it doesn't have to be:)... but what he was talking was a reasonable concept. In optics, we call it the "Reciprocal of the sum of the Reciprocals"... and it does the same thing... but what Mike was talking ABOUT needed a bit more thought... like missing the forrest for the leaves.
Jeez, I hate to defend him... the bum outshoots me all the time ;(

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Drying my back off, after that long swim across the Rio, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 23:18:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.13)

Hey balistic type dudes!

If you read my much too long post re the the Alabama sniper shot and the bullet direction change one in the target......anybody got a real explanation for why it did that?

BTW- no comparisons to the M-16 bullet hitting an arm and tumbling through the body and coming out the foot stories allowed....

Seriously-thanks if you got a good theory.
Mictac <Mictac@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 23:32:22 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.32)

for those of you that are actually interested in how it's going with McMillan: They agreed that it was their fault, and that if I would send the stock back, they would fix it. Labor is free, return shipping is free, but the cheek piece is mine to pay for, although they said it would be at last years prices, since it's been on order since last year (sure am glad to have a stock by now!) as there was a snafu with the quote (just the dollar amount) that was given to me. Seems that the quote that was given me had the cheek piece on it, as did my order, but the quote was short that amount of $, and they decided to not put it on rather than use one of the contact numbers I gave them to get more $$ sent out. Don't ask me. Now the bad part. Gonna have to "unbed" the action, and I sure HATE to do that! Guess taking it out of the action once won't hurt TOO MUCH. For the class, I've got one of those Blackhawk "strap-on" jobbies coming priority superfast. Hopefully it'll do. See Mike, you weren't worried enough about me "challenging" your teaching abilities, so the great one is making your job more FUN ;-)

Now whadda we got? Strap-ons, spanking, bucking, and MOA anal retentives? WET WHAT?!?! Go pull that crap on executive parkway in El Paso! See how it feels to look NORTH and see that barbed fence!

Now, one of you good geography types give me the mileage to Storm from here. Gotta figure out how many gallons of coffee would be needed to spend vacation there. After all, I got a lot of IOU's to make good on!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
just a scoche north of Vegas on '15, YOO-TAHHH, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 23:41:18 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.222)

Mictac,

Bullets change direction all the time. Deflection into the area of least resistance. I shot through some live twigs about the same size as a pencil. I put a 36" square piece of cardboard with a 3" paster on it behind the twigs. Hit the twigs several times with varying results each time. There was deflection each time, but in different amounts. Rifle was 308 168 matchkings, distance 200yds. Some of the shots were defected about 18". The target was 6ft behind the brush.

Best Regards,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Thursday, May 25, 2000 at 23:47:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.179)

AAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! Been driving for 12 hours in the friggin rain and come here to have some relaxation. What do I get but MATH problems! Mike and Steve, you are both right and wrong. Depends on the question. Math formula for gun, shooter, ammo = square root of x squared + y squared + z squared (this is the norm we use). This gives you Steves answer and is the AVERAGE mean spread to be expected. Biggest spread or Extreme Spread is x + y + z = "NO I PULLED THAT ONE" or Mikes answer. That one EVERYONE remembers and boasts about is the little itty bitty one that is off the scale and equates to jerk left gun right ammo center = one ragged whole. This whole thing then fits on a bell curvy thingy a bobby and you have a way to firgure first round hit probabilities. Have fun!

Hi guys just got back and have a blazing headache. Need beer obviously! Got to go befroe I explode!

Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 00:45:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.206.196)

Zeb;
Good job of making an ass of yourself,might be a good time to clarify your post and/or make an appology.I'll accept it for my friends whom you have insulted.
Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Longview, Texas, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 01:27:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.195.197)

Has anyone out there had problems with their Shepherd Scope and sent it back to be repaired and were not satisfied?
Frank
frank <pmcmssr@yahoo.com>
Ventura, CA, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 02:20:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.67.105.119)

Frank:

I had an opportunity to chat briefly with some Shepherd reps at the NRA convention...they said that they had recently dropped Hakko as their OEM for their scopes...too many fubared ones that had to go back. They claim that any such problems will be reduced in the future. So apprently they did put out some junk. Not quite what you asked, but I hope it helps.

-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 02:58:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.31.204.125)

A few weeks back, I asked if anyone might know what powder (or equivilent thereof) Federal is using in it's 69 grain .223 match round. Any help in duplicating the round would be much appreciated. I'm asking for an internet handicapped friend who would like to roll his own.

I would also be interested in trading e-mails with anyone who is planning on attending the Operational Tactics Advanced School in Baker City next month. Are there any of Stu's disciples out there?

Has anyone worked with Universal Trackers here in the NW? I'm looking for some honest feedback. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 03:11:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.163.142.12)

MicTac - Bullets do very funny things when they come in contact with humans. It seems that the slower, smaller bullets do more crazy stuff than fast, big rifle bullets, but the bottom line is...weird stuff happens. I have seen people shot in the chest, with an exit wound out the left heel (yup, the heel of his foot)...The ones that totally amaze me are the facial shots that end up producing no brain injury. I must have seen more than a dozen people shot in the face where the bullet bounced around in the sinus and didn't ever enter the "brain vault"...

Bottom line..the story you mentioned is somewhat believable...although 90 degree turns on .308 HPBT projectiles seem to be pretty darn rare...are you sure those are the EXACT circumstances. I've been at a few "jobs" where the facts that hit the reports did not exactly jive with what really happened. The press usually takes it from there and makes up whatever they want...they ALWAYS get it wrong.

On another note - to the newbies on this forum (sespecially those who think broad prejudice needs to be shared).. a word of advice. Stop writing and start reading... the regulars (not me) on this forum have invested a significant amount of "life" time to be able to contribute value on a consistant basis in this very finite field. The people you want to emulate are the ones that silently read this forum every day and learn,learn, learn. When a topic comes up that you have real value to contribute, chime in.

Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 12:39:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

SSG Maries,
Go to a sight called Shooterstalk.com and click on the the HighPower chat room, its like the Duty Roster only on highpower shooting. There is talk on there all the time about loads for the 223s with the heavy bullets from 69s to 80s. They shoot them in the ARs for the highpower matches and they know what their talking about and are more than willing to help you out. Hope this helps!!

Bill R,
Your story reminds me of a match in Wyoming a few years ago when part of our gun club went out to a multigun shoot (Rifle,pistol,shotgun) and a couple of the guys came back and told the story about a rancher who came out and shot the long range rife match with his beat up old 30-06 with a 6x Weaver scope. They all kindof chuckeld at him about being "Out Gunned and out classed" but it seems someone forgot to tell him because when the smoke all cleared he took the top gun prize and went home leaving a bunch of "Hot Dogs" talking to themselves(HA). My dad used to have a saying, "Beware of the man with one gun".
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 13:19:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.41.18.130)

SSG Maries,

Some years ago, I tested a truck load of .223M for Federal in a machine rest at 500 yards. Initially it was anything but up to the standard set by the wonderful .308M. At that time, the powder was non-canister WC-749.

After much urging (and probably necessity) the powder was changed to VV N-140 or 540 (I forget which and am not close to the records). The rate would have been in the 25.8 grain area for either. This was excellent ammunition. I have since lost my contacts at FCC and don't know which powder they currently use fo .223M.

You can't go wrong with the 25.8 grain load of N-140/540 with the 69 Sierra. Start below that level and work up. For me it worked in any temperature. Your experience might be entirely different.
Bill Wylde <k9wxr@rr1.net>
Cloudy, IL, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 14:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.189.22.83)

Pat (Mr. Bullet): I thought the saying was something like: "beware lending a rifle to a man with only one gun. He's broke the rest of his, and probably will yours too." HA! Sorry, just had to do it.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
as mentioned on the radio in, Utah, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 14:39:42 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.181)

To all:

I will clarify my comments on wets, just for your pleasure.

A wet back is a person who crosses the Rio Grande sans legal means, papers, etc. In other words, illegaly. They are also called illegal aliens. Wet is more of a technical term and not a racial one. My Mexican friends in town did not like them coming over, either. They carry things that range from deer corn (to eat) to guns and drugs. They will move in groups ranging in size from one to 15, usually. If you run into a bad group you had better be well armed.

I personally took two to town, at gun point, for the border patrol to take back to Mexico. One was "bayed" by my dogs on a fence post. He was not exited about going home.

Now for all who think that I am a _________ (I will let you fill in the blank), I only did my duty as an American citizen by turning them in. It is not a fun or easy thing to do but it is my duty. For all of you who are American citizens, reguardless of heritage, ease up. People are people everywhere you go.

You will find that I say exactly what I mean and mean what I say. I very rarely mispeak. I meant to offend no one. I am not in the habit of using racial slures. There are to many other relevent things use against someone who deserves it. Racial remarks are for small minded poeple. I thought that everyone here was a grown up.

I WILL NOT apologies for anything that I said so if you are looking for one you are out of luck.
Zed Stewart <zhdstew@nts-online.net>
Panhandle of, Texas, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 15:04:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.84)

Zed, not Zee - sorry Canadian joke LOL:)

Being a Canadian (generally more polite than you uncouth Americans -tee hee) I try to call a spade a spade. I think your wet comments are RTFO (Right the F*** Out-of-er) If you mean to say illegal immigrants say it - a lot of asian illegals come across the mexican border (if you knew anything about crime) so don't use a wide brush - just makes you look like an idiot. Same as any other racially derived catchism. Don't look at his/her color, look at their actions. I am WASP, you don't see me slagging other differing groups. You think Mike, Rick, 'lito, and Sinister Dave bring that crap here, no way. I'm not being PC just accurate. If you got hate to spew go do it somewhere else.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 16:07:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.132.43)

Jim M and Bill B-
This is no ordinary deflection of a few degrees widening out on impact. This would naturally make the miss worse as distrance increased. As for this shot, I saw the footage for myself.
The bad guy was shot in the right chest as he was facing about 90 degrees from the sniper. The bullet went in in the rib cage under his right arm, after blowing out his heart it turned within his chest, and exited the chest front, going on to enter the back of a hostage and severing her spine.
Like I said, not a normal deflection. Especially with the degrees of change and distance it was performed in.
I just can't figure how a bullet would "bouce off ribs/muscle, turn 90 degrees, and still have the energy to go out a chest and into another body with enough killing force. In my mind, if it had this much energy, it should not have "bounced". Obviously this is what happened though...or maybe a better explanation is out there?
BTW- the round was a .270 softpoint. Distance under 100 yards from a position close to level with the chest (shot off a car hood).
MicTac <Mictac@AOl.com>
USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 16:58:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.205.10)

On the deflection, I would think that excessive energy would cause the bullet to deflect. When skipping a rock across water, it skips until the energy runs out. This might explain why a deflected bullet would still be able to cause significant damage to a bystander.

As far as what deflected the bullet, I would assume that it would take a bone to deflect it. Possibly the mushrooming of the bullet changed the angle that would be required to get a deflection.

The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 19:05:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.180.4.138)

MicTac - Maybe...

Bullet enters body through right rib cage, strikes prominent portion of spine, deflection to the right of the somewhat round, hard object,it then transects bad guy's heart, exiting chest and striking victim's spine.

sound possible?

Jim Mitchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 19:50:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.20.190.1)

Zed, no matter what you think of the term the rest of the world thinks it is racial and out of line. Except that you have made a mistake and make ammends. We all make mistakes. The big guys say we are sorry and learn from it. Hell I am as white as snow and I took offense at what you said. No room for that type of talk here. I mean think about what someone could do with Zed in relationship to ones cousin. I mean no offense by it but imagine if someone said
Zed is a name from a long line of cousin F''''s" They might not mean offense but by dammed you would take it as an offensive statement.

Bill Wylde, great to see you here. Hows business?

Pablito you agreed with me. Damm next Bill Rodgers will agree with you and life will be complete.LOL

Rick, drink a beer for me.

Bruce Evans well said. Glad to see you back here. email me your address again. Lost it like half my brain.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 21:14:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.201.198)

Hi Guys,

I'm going to purchase one of the competition die sets with micrometer seater. I've narrowed it down to either Redding or Forster/Bonanza.

Any thoughts or preferences you'd like to share?

Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 22:04:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 64.41.35.251)

MicTac,

You say the round fired by the Sniper was a .270 soft point? Hell, I was trying figure why the Federal .308 Match round deflected, because they usually just blow apart when they hit tissue/bone. Most hunting rounds are designed to stay together. There is some new stuff available for LE that is frangible and wont even exit from a head shot. Wish that Sniper could have had some of that stuff.

Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 22:06:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.197.54)

Danny Reever...

I own both the Redding Comp seater, and the Forster Comp seater, and they are both outstanding, and are probably the best of the standard press seaters. The Forester is larger, and the numbers are easier to read, and it's also cheaper... but you can't go wrong with either.
The chambers are an "air guage" fit.

UnDude...
B. Rogers agree with me... that ol' 'yote bate don't agree with anybody on purpose;)) He even argues with his self when he shaves in the morning:))

Zed...
You have made quite an impression on the members of this site.
Nice entrance fella'...
... you really know how to impress the locals.
I'm at a (very rare) loss for words, at your lack of cool!

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
Sunnin' myself on the south bank of the Rio, lookin' for my swim suit., USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 22:35:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.108)

I think that Jim is right on the money with his thoughts on the deflection.

I'd bet it slowed down through a rib, bounced off the body of a vertebra and then exited between ribs in front. Then I expect it struck the unfortunate hostage between two vertebrae at an upward angle.

At least that would be the most direct route with the least resistance.

Chris <cmw@tiac.net>
USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 22:54:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.181.148.30)

Zeb;
I see your point to a reasonable degree and know that in some areas that illegals are a problem,as are many other groups which need not be described here.There certainly is cause to be suspicious of some people but gross generalizations are always wrong.Did you ask those fellers for their green cards at gunpoint?We have a large community of Mexican Nationals in this area and for the most part they take jobs that most indigenous personel would not.I have a very good friend that had been here for many years on a work visa before being naturalized and his work ethic and desire to be a viable part of society far exceeds most people I know and yes when he came to the U.S. he was illegal.He still speaks rather poor English and is commonly subjected to ridicule because of this.Maybe I'm overly sensitive,maybe not.If you feel you have done no wrong then by all means don't appologize.

Mike M.:
I haven't been away just not taking up space.I'll send the address.
Bruce Evans <bgenlvtex@aol.com>
Texas, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 23:25:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.43)

If someone is looking to get his feelings hurt they will most likely accomplish it, in short order.

Mike,
You will have to try harder than that to offend me. Remember, I grew up with the name Zed. I do not take things personally that are not meant as a personal afront. I guess the rest of the world does not live in South Texas.

I did not know that this site was so politically correct. I expected technically correct but not PC. Niether did I know that this site was so friendly to criminals.

As for the ND/fraggin' comment, if there was ANY comment that was out of order that was it.

Zed Stewart <Zhdstew@nts-online.net>
Texas, USA - Friday, May 26, 2000 at 23:29:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.155)

Zed: dunno where you're from, but try to get to Rio Grande City. East of McAllen. Got relatives living there that could teach you something about "politeness" if you want a local lesson. BTW, I've never stopped ANYONE at gun point, and can't say that I would unless there was something dangerous going on. As said before, you sure do make an impression on the locals. Maybe try changing your handle to partisan and repeating "cosine" a bunch of times?

Bruce Evans: you forgot one thing. The food! I'd rather eat a meal around Juarez than any other place on the planet (and I've tried several countries!). Never known anyone with the cooking talent of the Mexicans. Bet they could take three rocks, some wood, and a chile and make it a 5 star meal. Or I might just be highly biased. Sure need a for-real Mex (or even Tex-Mex!) place in this state.

Danny Reever: I've got the Redding BR seater (thanks for the recommendation Patron 'Lito!) and think the thing is GREAT! That spring loaded allignment doober is way cool, seems to work!

Back to working up loads for the new '25. And trying a beer or two ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
The banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 00:20:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.139)

Deflection-
you guys may have hit the nail right on the head (so to speak).
I am NOT going to get into the angle issue and cosine stuff on this board.....Nope,no way. :)
But, as I recall, the shot was taken when the bad guy was walking at a slight angle towards the shooter. He was not walking 90 degrees, less. The video tape was taken from behind the snipers position so this shows pretty clearly. From that the bouncing off the vertabrae and going out the opposite way through the chest. The bullet then would have had to turn around more than 90 degrees within the bad guy's chest! Strange stuff.
We will never know for sure because, as I said, the bad guy twitched on the ground and became a lead pencil. Lots of holes and stuff (couple 12 gauges up close and personal from a entry team guys and an MP5 on auto).
Thanks to all for the clarification
Mictac <Mictac@AOl.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 02:01:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.192.42)

Zed,
Not friendly to criminals - but innocent till proven guilty.
What you said simply smacks of racism - to me and apparently many others. This is the 21st Century - I don't pull any punches but I dom't go looking for stupid scraps either. Anyone who knows me would drop dead with me being PC (want to know what I think of women in the Infantry ask me) We have problematic elements in our society that commit a portions of the crime. Yet I don't go blaming every one of those particluar segments for the actions of a few. But then I am also not out burning crosses on lawns right ZED?

You said 'Wet' wasn't meant in an offensive way - hey man its just like 'Gook' or 'Nigger' those entire words connotations are offensive.

Hurt my feelings?, fire away!

Purolator:Those Fu***ng Clowns can't find my Rice rifle - what's to bet some greasy bastard has it in his car and is hocking it to the local scumbags' (hey I meant to show it to the Vancouver & BC RCMP ERT team but not that way)

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
madder then hell, in, Canada - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 02:20:14 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.139.146)

Gentlemen, I have been lurking in the shadows in the past, and have posted little. mrbullet ahs given me some insight on the 260 Rem. and my wife used it effectively during our last deer season.
I have recently located a Win. Model 70 Classic Laredo in 7 Rem. Mag. with the BOSS system. This gun is very much like a Rem. 700 Sendero, same stock and heavy barrel. I have little personal knowledge of the Classic action or the BOSS system, just what I have read and heard.
I am not LE or military, just a 32 yr. old redneck who likes to shoot alot and at things a long ways off.
High Voltage <mwilt@nemonet.com>
little wisp of a town, Misery, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 02:48:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.73.203.74)

Danny Reever,
Redding is the way to go, Mine are Tango India Tango Sierra material! Like the fit and finish better than Forsters.

On torso shot deflection, I seem to 'member the .270's (if that is what was used) are one of them thar weird length to diameter ratios and that MAY have had something to do with it.
Shot Angle and deflection off a rib, Walkman, arm bone, or whatever else probably further increased the reported errant path.
Terminal ballistics & shot reconstruction are REAL arcane ju-ju best left to the likes of Spent Bullet Zen Masters like Bruce Ragsdale, or Marty Fackler.

Bruce E, welcome back Dude!

'Lito,

SPEECHLESS!?? Golly-Dang! That is a first. How about swapping the 'A4 for the Cuttlefish Ghillie after the match?

Steve, ARE YOU COMPETING???????????

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 03:14:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.38)

Yep, your right Mike, the devil himself wouldn't argue with me over 5 minutes. Lito' would last 15 and probably have the last word though.
Forgive my mirth gentlemen, but this exchange with Zeb is amusing to hear. What we have is a culture clash for sure. Here's the funny thing about it, although Zeb seems to imply that people in the Texas panhandle region go "Wetback Hunting" with AR's, I think it's not as
serious as the culture difference seem to make it seem, but there are desperate types that have to be "contained" among them, like the so called "wet" that cut the tendon's on my former next door neighbor's legs to keep him from following him when he was caught poaching deer by the Colorado Wildlife officer, in a little town I used to live in...but anyway.. . For instance, if I was to go outside there and holler at my neighbor accross the street,"Hey, you old wetback bastard! What are you doing over there tonight!" He'd probably invite me over for TACO's but if I used the words that Kevin the Candianman did with obviously no racial overtones intended, "greasy bastard". He might just
pull his Mexican Mauser and shoot at me. You would definitely not go into a bar anywhere in the county and holler all you "greasy bastards" get the hell out for fear of losing your jugular vein. What I'm saying is
Half the "Wetbacks" around here are "German's from Mexico" And damn fine Mercedes mechanics and drink more beer than Snipers at a rifle meet but are the best most devout people I know. They would not be offended by the "Greasy" remark but the Spanish Americans might have your Arshe. All would likely just laugh at the Wetback reference, say something about smart ass Gringo and tip their Colorado Cool aide! You wanna start a real scramble around here just walk in to the door and holler, "Border Patrol". You can get stomped in the stampede...
You see Kevin you might get your butt kicked just like Zeb did and wouldn't even know why. This political correct, racial bull is just all us Gringo Americanese fools playin the game we been taught by our friends in the left wing crowd. We all been taught to raise hackles when we hear something that's off color or offensive but the only way it'll ever go away is for the offended to ignore it and pass it off.
What's that about sticks and stones? The only way names and words can hurt is if you let em hurt you. Now 168 grain Sierra Match King hollow points... That's nuther story! Against my better judgement..
I submit!

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 03:50:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Okay, wierd GPS observation yesterday.

I took three local readings with strong signals from five or more satellites for each location yesterday. Plugged the coordinates into Terra Server and came up with images about 15 MILES off to the West!

GPS was a GARMIN borrowed from my brother. It will give you the same coordinates if you go away and return to the same spot. So do we have a SERIOUS ERROR introduced into the satellite signal, is this GPS A POS, or are the USGS maps off by 15 miles as far as location?

I was in the market for one of these things, but this sort of reinforces my distrust of technology (kinda scary hearing that from a programer/networker type aint it). Give me a good ol' map and a compass any day!

Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South West, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 04:02:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.163)

Hey guys, feeling spry and full of vinegar with this fresh built rifle. And thanks to Patron 'Lito, gonna do a LONG RANGE budget to try to come up with some $$ and get to Storm this year. Hope it works out, but could be a long shot. Got no tree tux, and no ideas how to make one. Probably no cash to buy one. Now, if I DO get there, how do I put in for the prize Springfield '03-A4? Is it a drawing, raffle, or for high score? ;-) And does a stainless barrel and desert BDU's detract in WV, or does the parked flash hider count as cammo? HA! Non-profane suggestions welcome!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
sampling fresh beer from the kegs-o-plenty, in the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 04:04:09 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.236)

Zed I was not going for the insult on you. I would have been more direct. Just ask anyone here. What I was going for was to open your eyes to how the world is. A good rule of thumb is dont call anyomne anything that:
1. you would not do to their face.

2. something that would trigger a violent reaction in someone. You can not make me or anyone else with a first grade education think that you would go to the Hispanic area of any town and start calling everyone you think is an illegal alien a "Wet". You would not be welcome. You can not be that dumb.

This is not a site that caters to criminals. The way you talk is concidered disturbing the peace. I swore an oath to protect everyone from the oppressive. Change or go somewhere else! Not an insult just the way things are.

Pablito, I laugfhed so hard I almost coded when I read your last post. Bill dont bomb me now.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 04:12:02 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.24)

Speaking of Storm Mountain, what about non firing observers? I live close enough to come down and share a few "mellow yellows" or "a quart of motor oil looking stuff" if you prefer, but the $$$ situation is similar or worse that Bravo. Still wanting to make/buy G-suit and get out there in the rose bushes, but it jus' aint in the plans this year. Hell, I can't even make it to the draft dodger 100 at Perry this year. Besides, I want to get an idea of just how all this stalking stuff works before I jump on in. I suspect it's a little different than trying to get close enough to a whitetail to perforate it with an arrow from my little old long bow.
Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Just North of, bye Gawd, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 04:19:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.163)

To PeteR Re: Are you Competing?

Last year, after walking back to the cars from the stalking area right behind Mike and seeing how much of a struggle it was for him lugging all that stuff around, stopping to catch his breath every few steps, I realized that this sort of thing is not for me. I was having almost as much trouble myself, and I was only carrying binoculars! It must be the altitude. If this years event is just going to be a shooting match, and I could figure a way to cammo up my little red wagon, I just might. Otherwise, I'll pass. You guys have fun.

A Cuttlefish Ghille suit for a 03A1 Springfield??? NO WAY!!!
Then I really would look like a fish out of water.

To Mike,
I am still patiently waiting for your formula on how you came up with a 3 or 4 MOA difference between those 2 rifles. Perhaps you could just point me to the appropriate issue of Petersons Publishing CO. I could take it from there.

Also, I was not trying to insinuate anything about your education. I called your solution a first grade answer because that is when I learned that 1 + 1 equals 2. If you learned this in college, that is OK with me.

Also, I was not trying to pass judgement on your ND. It has happened to me also. Never in front of a witness though.
Steve <nato@bright.net>
S.C.D.H., Ohio, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 04:23:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.148.102)

Mr. Bill Rogers, Sir, you just said what I 've been thinking for two days! Kudo's to you!, We still live in AMERICA, last I checked. Some things are definitely best left unsaid, due to misunderstanding, chip on shoulder, etc, etc.....Call it what you will, but gentlemen Mr. Bill is dead on...... we have been programmed by the left wingers, and don't even realize it!. Which one of our illustrious forefathers said it?, I may not agree with what you say.......But I will defend your right to say it to the death!.Don't get me wrong, I am the last person you could call or consider a racist, My first wife was nearly full blooded hispanic.And also am a Christian. I was always taught to treat others as you would like to be treated, and so I do. But guy's lets remember what's coming up Monday........there are a lot of crosses in Arlington there SO that WE as AMERICAN's, can still say and do pretty much as we will( called the 1st Amendment). That said, it also gives the truly offended person, NO matter the ethnic background, the right to knock you on your can, if he so see's fit.Don't know any of you, don't know ZED, don't think he MEANT to hurt anyones feelings. WE as fellow shooters, and lovers of this country need to stick together. My .$02's worth, for what it's worth....And to all you who have/ are serving this great country of ours, my hat's off to you, Thank You all from the bottom of MY heart, for ALL that you do, GOD BLESS YOU ALL..........Terry.
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 04:56:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.199.39)

Bill - I hope I am big enough to admit a mistake, guess differing regions have differing tastes - I had not assumed that 'greasy' would apply to anyone else, but a slimy dirtbag.

PC is being 'make me puke' courteous -but being polite is, engaging your brain before engaging your mouth.

Were going to try to put together a small Canadian contingent for your little get together at Storm - if your Draconian Gun Laws will let us import and export Firearms from our fair land. -- Assuming the Hudson's Bay Peso (CDN $) doesn't drop anymore, making your dollar unreachable.

Anyone in the Vancouver B.C. to Calgary Ab. area who comes across a Jerry Rice Nighthawk, in a AICS, for sale please give me (and the local TAC team) a shout.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Feeling Sheepish, in, Canada - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 05:26:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.146.194)

Steve,

Too bad you aren't gonna compete, you would have a ball. AND ITS ONLY LIKE A 60 pound payload you carry all day long!

Hell, if my "skinny little weasel faced"(Thanks Depity Dave)ass can make it through with a case of the Shingles, should be a cakewalk for you!

Kevin, Bravo, or anybody else thinking about competing at The Sniper Rendezvous at Storm Mountain. GET IN SHAPE! Not an insult to anybody, just a STRONG suggestion based on my experiences. Leg work and toning upper body strength are highly reccomended!

Ccccccccccosine! I 'd rather do trim work!

Chao!

AND HAVE A SAFE HOLIDAY WEEKEND!

peteR

peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 11:13:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.68)

Wow, I'm beginning to think we have a real need to Curtail the 1st Ammendment in California. Mike, If I say, "Your sister wears combat boots!" and that triggers a violent reaction, will I be the one that
gets arrested in the Bear State? Understanding that you say that your just saying the way the world is... I'm saying .. is it really that way out there now? To clairify what I'm saying, If you went down town Amarillo and called everyone with Spanish look a "greaser or wetback you might get some stares and get picked up for loitering but if there were no threats, I doubt you'd be arrested if all your tail lights were on. They'd advise you, that you might get into trouble. But as long as your weren't creating undue or disturbing noise levels I'd think you'd be protected under what's left of the first?
There are differences we must realize.. if you walked down the street with a AR-15 slung over your shoulder in LA you'd be detained for 48 hours probably or put in prison for years. But the same thing in Amarillo would probably get a police man to pull over and say..."Hey, man...is that a Flat top Match Grade? Whatdaya want for it? "
Texas is a country within a country... "God Bless Texas!"

In California if you walk down some of the streets with the wrong Colors on you get beat up and/or shot the way I hear it back here from the Ret. L.A. Motorcycle officer I used to work with.
You just got to understand what offends people I rekon.
Somebody said "When in Rome... Do as the Italian's do or something like that. I believe that was good advice.
I was up in SF while back stayin in one of those Hotels off the Union Park and couldn't hardly sleep for listening to the Gun Fire. There was Graffiti all around about where to call Leroy to get the Gun of your choice anytime day or night! Never heard a Gun go off in Amarillo
in all the many days I spent there.

Wow if that Bear falls in the ocean... who's gonna miss it?

Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 12:18:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hockey Steve ...

I took a GPS fix down at Storm Mountain, and just dropped it in to Terraserver.

Lat 39d-21.75m North
Lon 079d-06.53m West

And the 1000 yd range popped right in the middle of the picture, and I could easily see Rods house (Rod, stop that!).
The Rappel tower and "Ol' Downtown" wasn't there, as the Sat photos were circa '95.

Did the same with my house... and it was centered (but the occupant isn't;)

I'm using a Magellan GPS-4000-XL... works fine.

Maybe Pennsylvania has it's own tectonic plate, or maybe could be that you're using a Ga..Gar... Garm... Garmin POS-1000 ;)
Seriously... maybe the way you're entering the data... drop me an e-mail... I have friends that use Garmins, and they're OK too.

As to Storm... Check with Rod... but last year there were a lotta looker-oners. As to seeing what the stalkin' is all about, you can't... the shooters are all invisible, except for the blond one;). But, I would sugest you come down for the pre-match sniper course, it's fun, and will harden up your soft buns.

Kevin...
Come on down to Storm... they'll let you cross the border with your guns (tell'em you're going to Storm;)... just make sure that you list them at the border.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 12:55:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.9)

Steve, your explanation has been covered and recovered. Like an old couch. Take it as you like. You will either except it or not.

Bill R, I ask you this about Free Speech. Do you support it when it causes damage? I mean how do you feel when someone burns a flag? That on burns me up. Yes we are all shooters in here and by God I can not stand the idea that any group would be talked about as any term that is not kind. "United we stand divided we fall"

As to what constitutes a crime. Anything that targets one group for hate, based on Race, religion, or sexual orientation is concidered to be a hate crime in the US. Even in Texas. Generally we associate this type of crime with violence but it can be applied in much broder terms. We have people from all walks of life on here. We should treat everyone the same.

Maybe I am infected by living in California, but from where I stand I will take the infection over what is being offered by others. Heck I have to have had some contact with a person before I decide what to call them.

Pablito, I guess its my turn for Bill to disagree with.

Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 14:15:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

UNDUDE, Mr. Miller, have enjoyed your post's and you really seem to be a nice guy. That said, and I an not trying to offend you, BUT...... I think you are correct, you need to get the hades out of Kalifornia!. Where did all this Hate Crime crap come from?, LEFT WINGERS!. Since when did /does it matter if you kill some poor guy if he's whatever ethnic background, YOU HATE IN GENERAL.When you take anothers life, property, etc, you are proving YOU do not belong in society w/ the rest of us, Your sorry butt needs to be locked up and proper punishment meted out.How do you get differing degree's of punishment for the same crime, that is pure and simple discrimination. If you happen to be a caucasion,the way it's set up now, your rights are less protected than any other ethnic minority, as for the comment about sexual orientation, Since when did that become a protected class of citizen's?. I get so sick and tired of people ( LEFT WINGERS), trying to hide behind what Dr. King stood for , and the trials and tribulations of the Black peoples as a race, it makes me want to puke, as well as it should any and all Black Americans . You may well be correct sir, there are laws on the books that (supposedly) are HATE crimes laws . I submit to you all crime is induced by hate, why then have a dual standard, all that means is SOME of us just lost SOME of our rights because WE don't fall into that particular category.This has nothing to do with you as a person, it has to do with a corrupt judicial system, and politicians. Our founding Fathers would turn over in there grave if they could see how far we have fallen.How many veteran's lying in the grave right now, if they could see what WE have let this country become because of radical feminism, and "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS",would given a second chance DIE for it again ?. MIKE, JUST TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR LEGISLATOR'S, Barabara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, these ladie's and their idea's on how and what should be done to/ in this country should serve as a wake up call as to what's going on. Like the old Paul Simon song," SLIP SLIDING AWAY",if we don't start in earnest watching what is happening here, then we too will "slip slide away". As to protection under the law, let's all be subject to the same LAW and not have a "preferred status listing".As to judging others until you meet/ know them, right on! the way it should be. It has nothiing to do w/ what's on the outside, it's the inside that counts.Last, and I'm sure your saying (finally).United we stand?, you are right sir, but alas, by conjuring up these inane laws, they have really "TRULY DIVIDED US".When you have a different standard and set of rules, when everyone is supposed to be on the same team, what have you done?. You sir have then truly divided us all.........for what it's worth ..Terry.
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 16:04:52 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.198.47)

I love it! "Politics Country", and I for once DIDN'T start it. Or even contribute. I feel totally vindicated. You wanna hear something funny? In the Utah schools, the only thing they are allowed to teach in sex ed is abstenance until marriage. Ain't that about 180 degrees out of PC?
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the overly PC banana republic, formerly known as the, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 16:25:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.199)

Tshoes, I agree my state is not going in the best direction on many things but I see no need to insult any group based on anything they can not control. I agree with yours and everyones elses ability to disagree with me. I am far from left wing, but anyone on the playground shoul learn how to talk.

One more thing Paragraph breaks so my eyes dont cross reading it.
mikemiller <tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 16:41:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Steve, I forgot whydid you bring up the HD then?

Bill, Pablito and the rest. Something we can all agree on. I read all the postsand we as a whole are not typists. God I need spell check on here. Lets lighten it up.

Bring on shooting sunjects. I am ready.

Undude/Mike/ND Guy?
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 17:18:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

I think the big thing that concerns me is that there seems to be a pressure to create a dictionary of incorrect terms in our society. More and more things are included as "things not to say " on the playground to use Mike's words. The more of this you see the less room there is in the book for free expression and free speech.
I guess if I were in a large Corp. or LE agency I'd spend more time in sensitivity training than in the work place. Most of these words everyone is so bent about these days, like the N word that is defined as a 'Sorry or worthless' person by the Webster group is definitely derogotory and so is the word "Wetback" as it's commonly used but after all it does refer to someone that has broken the law (to my knowledge that's the only way to become one). When you use it to describe a whole race of people is when it is included in the hate catagory. The problem comes in when you try to make a word meet a definition it was not designed for. There are places where the word "Redneck" has a different conatation than other places. Mike would be sent to sensitivity training for using that in his department to describe some suspect I would guess, whereas I wear the name proudly on a daily basis. Yes, it's time methinks to retreat back under the Ghillie Suit that is the discussion of tactics and gun subjects that we all hide under when a question comes up that has so answer. Snipers can always hide in the tall grass when the fire gets too close. From that I will go "slip sliding away!"
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 17:41:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

Hey, I just realized that I am in Mr Rogers neighborhood....sorta. I concure sir, GOD BLESS TEXAS. I am a transplanted oHIoan. Been in TX for 30 or so years and my wife is from the "valley". You couldn't drag either of us back with an Abrams. No offense to my amigos in Ohio.
I got a BIG chuckle form the Border Patrol comment, mostly cause it's true! See a lot of that sort here in Houston. We not only have a lot of Hispanics but Centeral and South American too. Just like everywhere else we get the good w/ the bad.

Bravo...you are right on target (1/2 MOA) w/ your analysis of Mexican food. Gotta have it at least once a week and I don't mean Taco Bell. I'm still looking for substitute asbestos shorts. Since the EPA banned asbestos I am at a loss to reduce scorched boxers!

Kev...Draconian gun laws? I argee, it's getting close but you should be more worried about getting your own guns BACK into Canada. Back in the late 70's I planned a trip to Alaska via Canada and was told I couldn't even transport my guns thru your country! Had to Fed X them to a GPO in Fairbanks.

The biggie....the 1st amendment. Yes, it burns my butt (more than jalapenias) to see our flag burned and to see some offensive crap called art and to know that our tax dollars fund some of it or to listen to some loud mouth spew garbage and foul language but, for good or bad, it is a freedom afforded to ALL by the 1st amendment. It's a right. Those who would take away our 2nd amend. use arguments that lump gun owners w/ criminals. We know the difference and we want our rights protected. Those who exercise the 1st amend. probably feel the same about their rights. Each person is entitled to that protection regardless if we find it offensive or not. Tshoes said it all...Arlington is full of crosses so that we may stay free under our constitution and I'll remember that this weekend. Thanks to all.

es mi dos peso's

Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Republic of Tejas, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 18:02:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.196.110.28)

Bill Rogers...
So your "neighborhood" is Tejas... Damn, and I thought it was "Indiana", (from your e-mail address...).

Hot Damn, no wonder we argue about everything... I was born in Fort Worth, and grew up on a family ranch in Shiro (pop. 68) that goes back to the Spanish land grant days, and spent some of my mis-spent youth in the Spindle Top Oilfields, as a sulphur monkey.

Your definatly a bum ;))

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 18:16:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.123)

I gotta get in here more often.

That MOA theory stuff was cool, just regret I wasn't drinking while reading it. From now on, I will consider myself a .1 MOA shooter shooting a many MOA rifle. I think it will be good for my self-esteem. If anyone says I can't shoot, I will just pull out that there formuleye and tell them to work the numbers...putting me down as a .1 MOA shooter then taking the other known [that being the actual spread], so we can determine how badly the the gun is shooting. Hey, golfers blame a punt into the pond on the clubs all the time, good enough for them, good enough for me.

As for Miller being PC, haha. I gotta remember that one.

Hope everyone is healthy and all is well.

Old Dog [.1 MOA, and practicing]
Bruce <Bruce@mannlawfirm.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 18:22:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.16.162.10)

I mean how do you feel when someone burns a flag?
Mike didn't mean to ignore that question. You know, I don't like to see that but I always know to look and see if there are no American soldiers lying around under the burning flag I'm not feelin deperate about it. I guess this is still one of the few places in the world where Citizens of a country can burn their own flag and I'm heartened by that. Actually it does more to remind me I'm in a free country than to see Federal Agents take down a Confederate flag over some Mississippi Court house.
Lito' been on those rigs myself from very early day actually, my dad was workin on a rig in Borger when he got his draft notice for the big war. I worked em some in the 60's and exploration business in S.A. bout the same time. Actually am at the foot hills of the Rockies where they run into the great plains. It ain't crowded out on the Buffalo plains here lemme tell you. Wouldn't trade it for any parkin lot I ever saw!
Hold hard boys, I'm late for a weddin. Probably got a Klan meetin afterward or something such as that. NRA Bingo night maybe!
Hi old Bruce! Long time no read, man you up to .1moa now? Your barrel must be goin bad on that old AR? Don't you know a good Illinois Gunsmith that would fix that for you?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 19:02:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

UNDUDE, sorry about the paragraph breaks, sometimes I just get carried away.Figured this balloon would hit the ceiling and stay there, Bill, please, paragraph breaks.........tshoes
tshoes <tls8323@cs.com>
USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 19:45:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.195.52)

Tony in TN,
I ran into a guy who said he has an M82A, one of the firsts? He said the barrell is longer, hence "better accuracy". Is this true, what was done aside shortening the barrell to make up the M82A1? If it were for sale, would it be worth the money or should I look toward a new M82A1.

All,
If a guy wanted to set up a flat-topped, heavy-barrelled AUG as an intermidiate range precision rifle, should he put a nice Leupold, ACOG or something similar on it. I read the the bolt/semi gun debate here as it comes up and am knowledgable enough to understand the 5.56 does not have the wind bucking ability out far, hence the use of the words "intermidiate range".

God Bless Our Veterans
Thanks in advance,
JFW
Jack Wilson <jackwilson@anglefire.com>
Ft. Worth, TX, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 22:07:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.254.161)

Kevin,
You sure your incursion across the border isn't the first step of Canadien World domination? After all you and your buddies disappeared from here for a while. Must have been conspiring. LOL
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, May 27, 2000 at 23:27:34 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.91)

Howdy Folks,
Have any of you used the RCBS X-dies? I would appreciate any info on them pro or con.

My thunderstick seems like it shoots better groups at longer ranges than the closer ones. (ie holds about an 1" at 100 yards and about the same 200 yards) I have shot groups at ranges going out to 700 yards and shoot well under MOA, but for some reason it's not happening at 100 yards. Useing federal gold match 175g ammo. The rifle is Savage 110FP in a .308 win. Is this the weapon or operator? If it is me tell how to fix it so I can shoot a tiny little group at 100 yards. Well it's time to go babysit the convited felons that call my place of employment home:)
Stagger 10-42
Stagger <Lmcpher104@aol.com>
Terre Haute, IN, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 00:17:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.196.28)

Can anyone tell me more about the Winchester M70 stealth in 308.
I love how this rifle feels and looks,but tech. data I havnt a clue
Tony Mil <tonylongshot@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 00:30:26 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.204.196)

Steve, what datum is that GPS you're using set on (WGS-83 or 84?). Does it jibe with the map datum? (Hint: go to the bottom of the map for the marginal information. Then re-set your GPS to the map's datum.)

Bravo, you've got plenty of time to make a ghillie by the time the Storm school and competition roll around. Desert BDUs make a fine base.

For your stainless steel barrel, there's a really easy fix: the high-heat resistant flat black barbeque grill refinishing spray paint will match your military finish and serve as a bottom coat for your cammy job.

Kev: sorry to hear Customs and Excise or the carrier has "Lost" your rifle (and you don't have any control over how it's getting broken in. Honest, I don't have it!).

Steve, you watched last year (I think we even met at the motel). You gotta shoot this year. If you really are planning on shooting in the nationals this year let me know -- I'll be going up with Team Virginia and there's usually always some room in the huts.

Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 00:35:15 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)

Pablito - stalking and Chainsaw...

(SMTC '99 trainup and Carlos II match)...'Chainsaw'.... hmmm.... the way I looked at it regarding stalking was - crawl thru the worst area that was available. Where we minimized the chances of running into someone else. I personally grew to like the briars... really lets me find out how good a friend you were (Ha!).
Another thing I found out by going thru the briars - is that your ghillie (at least mine did) will acquire natural vegetation as you crawl thru... :)

Remember me getting busted for crossing that open trail... I to this day can't figure out why I tried that..... guess I thought "Well geez if I move reeeeeeeeaaaaaaallllllll slow - I won't get detected..
Hey - I was there to learn and learn I did - and loved every minute of it... can't wait for the next course.

All: Enjoy your memorial weekend and God Bless our fallen comrades

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 01:05:48 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

Some thoughts about our politicians and where this country is going.

Heimler <moparjohn@home.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 01:38:59 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.102)

Some thoughts about our politicians and where this country is going.

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and prairies, and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went to the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." -- Alexis de Tocqueville

I wanted to remember where this country used to be and the sacrifices of those that have served this country providing our freedom at Concorde to those that have served protecting our freedom. May God bless all of you that have served. I will remember all of you Monday - but I know my history and think of all of you everyday. I just pray that we don't fulfill another phrase...

"Those that don't learn from their past, are doomed to repeat it.

Heimler

Heimler <moparjohn@home.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 01:40:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.4.252.102)

Apropos of nothing besides Memorial Day, I recall that the first POW in Vietnam was a Naval Aviator. I remember this much as he was shot down & captured on my birthday. When the POW bracelets came out in the 70's, my father tried to get me his. Shame on me, I can't remember his name, but I do recall it was Hispanic.
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 01:42:53 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.8.233)

My error; should read, "one of the first", or, "among the first POWs".
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 01:45:36 (ZULU) (your host address: 63.255.8.233)

Jack Wilson,
Yes the older 82A1's had a 33" pipe on them. The military in their infinite quest for saving weight so they can burden the grunts with more sh*t to carry, wanted the pounds shaved wherever possible. Hence the 29" tube. A lightened bolt carrier followed, now an aluminum upper receiver. They didn't like that as well.
The USMC (hey Gooch,Uncle Sam's Misguided Children) Couldn't help letting that one slip by! Anyway, the Corps is getting new 82A3's.Shorter bipod legs, Picatinny rail 18" long on top. Now we're back up to the weight we were. The barrel is beefed up as far as it can go in the current configuration. So the only real leg up you will get in the longer barrel is a bit more velocity. Some say a slight MOA difference at longer ranges, I haven't seen it. A few people order a 33"er. Takes a bit longer to build up cause we turn out the 29's all the time.
Oh baby, a little longer than I planned on.
Outta here.
Undude, Having fun with my toys yet?
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 02:26:20 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.76.150.222)

Jim,
I believe that would have been Barry Alvarez. Not sure if I spelled his last name correctly. Sorry.
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
Wi, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 02:43:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.100.170.76)

Well once again I have found an "autographed" picture of Carlos on EBAY. I swear I don't know whether to bid on it and some of the others I have seen or not. Have no way of knowing if the signature is real or fake. Sure would like to have a signed picture or book but don't want to get stuck.

Any ideas?
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 02:48:33 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.184.227)

Bolt: Carlos prints

Check with Richard Carroll - the owner of Southern Gun Works in Suffolk Va. Shop number: 757.934.1423. He tells me that he was a close personal friend of Carlos.
Anyhow, the artist Wooten - did that print of Carlos at the edge of the rice paddies - the one with the Marines Rifle Creed on it at the bottom.
Of those - 1000 were signed by Carlos. After Carlos passed away - Wooten took 10 of those and put I.M. (In Memory of...) in pencil above Carlos's signature. I bought two of them - I'll bet he has some more of the prints with Carlos's signature - might even have one of the I.M.'d ones as well.

Good Luck,

Ken :)

Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 03:02:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.233.164.10)

I know Burris Black Diamond tactical scopes are relatively new to the market but as a user of a 3x-12x B.D. w/ mil dot reticle (& custom hunter knobs - it's on my .300 Win. Mag. Browning S.Stalker) I can report that it has EXCELLENT optics. Compared to my friend's excellent and pricier Leupold LPS it appers to avoid the off-center abberations of the LPS. Also, the adjustments are constantly repeatable.
The Burris Signature rings, with their plastic "shims" between scope and rings and their various offset options, have no need for ring lapping OR beveled bases for long range elevation (plus there is gobs of internal adjustment in the B.D. scopes). Finally these scopes may be a bit heavier but they are TOUGH! Take a look at a great American product.

My next Black Diamond scope will be a 6x-24x mil dot for my .300 Win.Mag. H.S.Precision target rifle to replace my current 6x-18x Burris Fulfield.

Regards, Eric Blumensaadt
Eric Blumensaadt <ericblumensaadt@aol.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 03:44:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.161)

Dave,
Not sure of the Datum as I returned the GPS to my brother yesterday (his toy not mine). The major problem was operator headspace error, I entered the decimal part of the minutes as seconds. I tried it again the right way, and I am at least within a km as far as the images go. No way to pinpoint the location on terraserver that I can see, just gotta search around the area for landmarks. As for Pa having its own tectonic plate, I think that its's more like we are right of center (I'd like to think), and now it seems that the image comes up about a km or so to the left of the location where reading was taken. Has the "jiggle" been removed, and what accuracy should one now expect from a new GPS? Recommend a "good one"? I still prefer a good compass and accurate map!
Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
South Westb, Pa, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 04:43:57 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.236)

Well fella's, I do have something to appologize for.

I have created havok on this board and I did not have any intension of doing that.

I guess that you will not know the circumstances of the situation until you have lived out in BFE, South Texas, alone with your wife and baby with no support available. (Hell, I even bought one of the fellows lunch at the local diner while waiting for the BP.)

I will keep my questions and comment on releavent subject material from now on. Again, I am truely sorry for causing trouble here.

I do have a problem on my new 700, however. While adjusting the trigger, via Pablito's directions, I screwed up somewhere. I have a 3 lb trigger now but it has a gritty take up. I think the trigger and the_______ (horseshoe shaped thing that it indexes with, not the sear as I know it) grate against one another. It feels like crap! If there is anyone here who would care to help (Pablito?) I would sure appreciate it.

Zed Stewart <zhdstew@nts-online.net>
panhandle of, TEXAS, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 04:57:44 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.136.47)

I went to terreserver again, toog a really close look. the center of the image that they came up with ioh 2.25 km North and 0.25 km West of actual location where reading was taken.
Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
LoST in South West, Pennsylvania, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 04:58:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.236)

Hey night owls. Got a hard one (for me). How do I correct this one??? With my Leupold Mark4 M3, I can't adjust it down enough. At 100 yards, I'm 12.75" high with the BDC set as far CCW as possible. Bottomed out. At 200 (roughly, actually 180) I'm about 20" high, same scope setting, bottomed out. Is this a case of having too much of a good thing? At 310 yds, aiming 1 mil low (still bottomed out), I was still 12" high (in addition to the 1 mil). But, she shoots. Got a true 1/2 MOA 5 round group out of her tonight, and no, I've had NO beer and swamp land DOES NOT come with the rifle! Do I just not shoot closer than 500 or 600 yards, and push the BDC to 1600? ;-) Sure hope this one is "solveable", but if it isn't, I guess I'll just not shoot "close range" anymore, at least not with this scope!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Nothing is EVER easy, at least I still sleep in the, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 05:29:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.190)

I am looking to bye a eather winchester 70 larado with boss system in 7mm rem mag. or a remington 700 sendero with a 26 inch heavy barrel also in 7mm rem mag. which one would you chose or if you have a better suggestion please tell me. im looking to pay 600-650. thank you
brando6003@aol.com
brandon <brando6003@aol.com>
la, ca, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 07:02:55 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.193.168)

AUG scope,

The 6x42 Kahles is a good match to the AUG Flat top,they make a 5.56mm cam for it,or a S/H German Army scope,the small 4x24 scope that mount's on the G-3,has a focus knob,and a cam for 7.62(you could remark it for 5.56)they cost around $250 USD from Germany.

Chris
Chris <cafarr@excite.com>
New Zealand - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 07:26:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 203.97.45.166)

Some time ago, there were a few postings from people that were looking to be absorbed back in the civilian workforce after finishing their service careers within one or the other branch of the armed forces. On that note, I happened to stumble across the following website :

http://www.destinygrp.com/index2.html

I have no affiliation with those guys nor do I possess any knowledge as to what they do apart from the info they offer on their website.

It might prove to be an interesting place to start investigating options and alternatives for anybody who might be interested.

Regards,

Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 09:40:06 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.93.224.68)

Zed...

Well said, and accepted. Welcome to the site.

Get a can of spray gun cleaner, like "REm Clean".

Take the trigger out of the gun, and carefully remove the large lever, (it's chrome, and holds back the firing pin, and will "want" to come out, there's a spring under it). Spray the whole trigger, and "Wash it out"!!. Wipe off the large lever, so there's no crud in it.
Re-assemble the trigger, and put a small drop of oil in the pin that the trigger pivots on, but DON'T slobber oil over the trigger, it just collects more grit.

If you are not comfortable with taking the trigger apart, then remove the bolt, and (using the long plastic snoot on the RemClean), spray down into the trigger from the top, going through the ejection port, and let the fluid flow out the bottom... flood it!!... a bunch!!

Let it dry, and put a small drop on the pins.
If this doesn't do it, then drop me an e-mail, and we'll get you through it.

Bravo...
Dude-skie... you bought the wrong MK4-M3! You got the VERY, VERY long range model... closest shot is about 450yds, but you're "good to go" out to 3 miles... let your spotter take the close ones... she needs the practice. (I'll swap you for a "normal" Tasco! ;)

If it's on your raggedy-assed M1A, loosen the mount. Make sure that the rear attachment point is clean, and has no burrs, and when you attach it, that the faces are as close as possible. When you re-tighten the main bolt, rotate the mount clockwise HARD, to take up all the accumulated slack, and tighten it down. Then tighten the the front "ring screw" down well. This should give you about 20 thou more elevation than you had (unless you already did this)... if it's not enuff, then some file work is needed. You can put a few layers of tape in the bottom of your front scope ring, until after the course.

'lito (Going birding for the weekend!)

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 12:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.12)

Got a problem with my Leupold Tactical scope. Took my father-in law to the range yesterday and noticed condensation build-up that got progressively worse. Whom do I call at Leupold to get it checked out ? I bought the scope last year.

thanks;

Andrew
Andrew <mysig@fast.net>
Broomall, PA, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 14:31:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.92.92.179)

Stagger, Possibility of your relatively long 175gr.MK bullets are
not being stabilized (by your rifiling twist) until after
100+yds. Try 155gr.Palma bullet, or maybe even 167gr.MK .
Just a half-educated guess, but it once worked for me.

tshoes, FYI--- The quote "I disagree with what you say, but I will
defend to the death your right to say it." is attributed
to a French guy named Voltaire. Notice that I didn't say
Frenchman;.) Sounds like it could have been one of our
forefathers, however.

To everyone, Have a happy and safe Memorial Day!

Al S.

Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
Palisade, Colorado, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 14:46:08 (ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.19)

Stagger...
Most likely you have parallex at close range, and if removed, you will find the groups get small quick... there is the belief by some, that bullets, somehow, go to sleep, but it has never been shown when put to a real test in a proper rig (a rail gun). It's one of those wives tails that never go away.

'lito

Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 15:22:16 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.46)

Lito'; for fear of starting another unsolvable thread, I believe I have witnessed that phonemenia before. Some guns just seem to wander bullets around until later on down range where they shoot good. Wonder if perhaps it has something to do with the fact that it isn't a rail gun. In order words side and vertical turbulance happening to wobble the bullet so some extent. What are other thoughts on the subject. I asked my "old wife" but she has no opinion on the subject.
I don't think I ever had a 30-06 or Springfield 03 that didn't really shoot better at 200 than it did at 100. I never tire of contaversy, Mike are you rested up yet?
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 17:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)

B. Rogers...

(Jeez, I'll never get out of here!). Every time I've been told that someone had seen this effect (large groups at close range, and smaller groups at long range)... it has been parallex.

Take a hypothetical case where the gun shoots 2" groups at 100yds, and 1.5" sroups at 200yds.
When you consider, for that to happen, the bullet would have to leave in the wrong direction by 1/60th of a degree, and somehow know it's going in the wrong direction, turn back to get "intersect" the sight line, and make another turn to follow the sight line.
And each bullet, which started in a different direction than the others, would have to find it's way back the the sight line, then correct it self a second time, to fly with all the others???
No Way, fuzzy Jose'.

Take any gun that shows "Sleeping bullet syndrome", and fix it so the gun and barrel can't move, and shoot a group at close range, and put another target at long range, and you will see the sleeping effect is gone.

Many scopes show parallex at close range, and many shooters don't know how to see it, or correct it... in spite of their belief that they can.

Many people have "seen" this effect, and assumed it must be the bullet going to sleep, but if you think about what it would take for 10 bullets that left the barrel, all in different dirrections, with a 1/60th degree error, and find their way back, you will see it can't happen without a guidance system.

A fellow posted here last year about his rifle doing this very same thing, and we e-mailed a few times, he learned how to over ride the built in paralllex in his scopeand "Poof" the "Sleeping bullet syndrome" disappeared...

Now I'm outta here till Monday night... bird hunting (North American Birdus, long leggus, delicious;)

Remember why we have this weekend, guys.

'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 17:54:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.46)

Andrew: the folks at Lupita Central are good folks. Sent in a Mk4 M1 once to have it upgraded to mildots. They did a total tear down and inspection on it, gave me all kinds of good results. All free of charge (except the mildot upgrade). They lost my check, but sent the scope home anyway, then found it a few weeks later, taking my word that I'd included payment with the scope. Just don't ask the people answering the phones for info, they'll pass you around for DAYS without anyone knowing anything about any scope. There's a couple of GOOD contacts there though if you want 'em.

Zed: cool enough by me. Welcome aboard, you know though that NOBODY ever leaves "the roaster" (evil laugh, and no, the A is not a typo). They just lurk like we all used to.

To everyone that sent me e-mail on correcting my scope, thanks. I've tried some, gonna try more, and of course it's a great excuse to shoot the thing. "Uh, honey, but these guys said I HAVE to". Maybe the 1/2 MOA was a fluke (doubt it though) but I've got several 3/4 MOA groups (400 yards) this morning, until the wind and mirage sent me home. See Mike, you gots your work a-cut out for ya!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Finding it hard to shoot while grinning so big in the, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 18:00:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.162)

Pablito and Bill R., You both could be right. I have seen this effect many times. Mostly with large heavy bullets not settling down until several hundred yards. It is kind of like a football pass. When it is released by the quarter back it wobbles for the first few yards until it finds the right rotation, so to speak. Now no one jump on me about what science says on this. Just what I have seen and every 50 cal shooter I know. Man those things take for every to get a good rotation.

The other is Parallex will do you at close range as well as long range. I have also seen this happen.
MikeMIller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 18:54:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 148.165.83.143)

Bullet wobble: Sorry I can't accept the 'it takes time to settle" philosophy. It leaves the barrel and things just go down hill from there. Put the gun in a rest so it's immobile and shoot. My thoughts are that the target at longer (200 over 100) ranges is smaller and gives a more precise reference for your aiming lowering your wobble or at least allowing you a more exact sight picture (but only till out to about 300 or so depending upon scope). Inversely that same tgt at 600m (if using iron) can be completely obscured - as a result your groups open up.

Pete - not so worried about the PT aspect, just my shooting

John - who's liberating who?

Dave, Customs doesn't have it, the broker screwed up, I'll have more info Monday (please,please,please)

Mike - ditto on the spell check, if I'm thinking (rarely) I cut and paste from MS word.

Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 19:12:01 (ZULU) (your host address: 207.148.141.63)

Kevin,

Don't worry about the shooting aspect, JUST COME! I guarantee that your learning curve will be unbelievable.

The chance to meet a buncha really nice folks that share the same interest as you and chat with some of the High Zen Masters like Dave (You're out of time and Incomplete)Liwanag, Kent, Rick, Rod & staff at S/M, fellow Rosterfarians, and such notable characters as Bruce Robinson and Dave Rolls(UnDude being a Girly Man this year and NOT ATTENDING because of the taunting bout his Girlie Ghillie and whatever the current IM OUTTA VACATION time.... excuse is),

Laugh like a madman at me during the "Bass Stalking" in the field,
or just throwing back a couple "owed cold ones" with the guys in a wholesome friendly atmosphere while Laughing at 'Lito stalking sheep at Lucy's Sheepdip cafe. BirdWatching MY weasel ass HA!

Zed,
Now that you're in the club you gotta come too and bring Bravo.

Chao!

Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
Rain City, By-GaWd, USA - Sunday, May 28, 2000 at 22:49:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.188.200.23)

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