Larry
Larry J. Porter <skporter@nts-online.net>
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:33:27
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.167.132.161)
DM vs Sniper - This is a matter of mission and not name. In the scenerios I've seen on the roster, it would be up to the sniper to match the right hammer to the right job. Who would use a brass mallet when a sledge is required or better still who would use a hammer when a nail gun would be faster and appropriate, ask Norm of the New Yankee Workshop. To argue that one gun is better than another all the time is not going to ever work. There are times when the bolt gun is the required tool, there are times when a fast shooting M4 is the required tool. There are times, to include Africa scenerio, when both are required. Try taking out some low life using a human shield at 300 meters with a weapon designed to take down the human wave attack. But that weapon to take down the human wave will be needed to protect the whole. One is for more steel on target and the other is for the surgical under adverse conditions. You can't have one without the other, just match the tools with the requirements. My arguement is that the semi, in it's present form, will not replace the bolt gun for that surgical. That bolt gun will not hold terrain though and it can not be decisively engaged. That is its big weakness. Though with proper planning and assessment of the situation, the sniper can put a package together that will prevail.
Got to go guys have fun for th next couple weeks. I will be thinking of you guys AND "gals" (?what is the accptable word now days?) while I go on my vacation.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 02:47:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.183)
High Power Question: Am I suffering paralysis by analysis, and using up a perfectly good barrel testing loads? I plan to chase some leg points this summer, and I would like NOT to LOSE them at 600.
Dave Liwanag, 'Lito, UnDude & company, do you guys think I am
expecting too much out of my 600 yard AR load? It consistently groups just
over 3.00" for 10 shot groups with open sights at 300 yards off sandbags.
(The distance I test all loads at initially. I will shoot it at 600 this
weekend.) My scope mount is FUBAR, so I have to rely on the iron sights
right now. Maybe our AMU guy (sorry, I forgot your name) can help me out,
what do you consider an acceptable group for a 600 yard AR15/M16 load?
As a point of reference, I have a 77gr Sierra load for 200 & 300 that
I can keep 10 shots in 2.5" at 300 off of sand bags.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
Paralysis by analysis, in south west PA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000
at 04:37:43 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.218)
And Kevin of the North: I'm also a big beleiver in a pistol as well.
Not so much for necessity as the psycological comfort it gives. I KNOW
what kind of a pistol shot I am, and I KNOW what kind of a rifle shot I
am. So I love the pistol, and will give Mike a "teaching challenge" :-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Oh, I wish I lived in the land of liberty, but I guess I have to settle
for the, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 04:45:43 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.200)
I love my M1A, but the groups open up when the bbl gets hot. Plus,
after 2 Mudville matches in the rain, I am going to have Jerry Rice redo
a M700 I have recently purchased. You don't need to be in the bush for
several days to see the difference between the two systems. One rainy Mudville
will convince you. The "beast" funtioned flawlessly, but when that flaky
gravel that is on the firing line sticks to you, your scope, and all over
your weapon, you see the light.
Spud,
Semper-Fi!
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, Kalisocialistfornia, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 06:45:14
(ZULU) (your host address: 199.174.220.68)
I have decidade to trade my Leupold Tactical Vari III 4.5-14 40mm
for another scope.
It may be a Kahles 6x42 K-ZF95 Mil-Dot or a Schmidt und Bender 3-12x50
Police Marksman P-1 Bryant.
My Leupold has a mil-dot reticle so I know what to expect but the Bryant reticle is unknown to me (its capabilities).
Finnaly my main goal it to aquire a scope with the better build quality and rugedness.
Could you please be so kind to help me with your expertise?
Thank you.
P. Marcos
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
Lusitania - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:12:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
194.65.14.68)
We agree on the bolt v. Semi thing (same page of music again ;)... and you said it well.
Bravo Dudeski!!...
Yes, it's your fault!... and Hathcock's spotter carried a 14 also,
and did it prowd in "Elephant Vally"... each gun's attributes supporting
the other, to the major dismay of the enemy!
If the world goes to hell in a hand basket, and they're burning down the houses on the next street, you can plop your raggity-assed M1A on my porch any time ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:25:12 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.105)
Paul M. <prmayne@ala.net>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 08:57:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.2.26.196)
http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html
An extremely well done spoof on a well known official. Be patient
with it - it takes about 5 minutes for the whole show...
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:15:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
http://www.crosscircuit.com/html/Musicals/JPoppins.html
An extremely well done spoof on a well known official...Be patient
with it - takes about 3 to 4 minutes for the whole show.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 12:17:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
*******************************************
Anyone seen this? Is it true? Is DoD returning to the practice of
not practicing marksmanship, again? I thought DoD was getting more into
marksmanship. Does this also mean that CMP is going away, perhaps?
Hank <ninesoft2@earthlink.net>
Denver, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 15:12:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
216.160.133.50)
"A country too long at peace inevitably attacks itself".
(I don't know who authored this, but it seems to fit)
Al S.
Al Simon <asimon@gj.net>
the divided State of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:04:59
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.235)
Re: Civilian sniper schools.
Check out www.stormmountain.com or contact bobbywhit@hotmail.com.
Storm Mountain is about as close as you're gonna find to a military style sniper course and Bobby runs a fine course also.
You might also consider the "Hardrock" matches put on at Ft Benning each month. While not schools they are sniper oriented matches and you will learn a lot by attending them. Contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com for more info.
On the USAR team. Too bad. Its a shame. Having been knee deep in the active USMC team and the ARNG budget process's at their MTU's I don't know if I would look at the Clinton admin as being the root of this. Most of the time its the budget fags at DA/HQMC etc that force this. In the reserve forces its all about recruiting and retention. If you can't tie into this, you're out.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 16:19:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.176)
I read your comments on the current state of the military. And have to say that most people have know Idea how bad it really is.
I got out amost 3 years ago. I started on a fast attach submarine (10 years ago) where if I even thought about a mistake or hesitated with an answer for a qualification, I was knocked on my a#$%%%%**.
After sea duty I was assigned to a submarine tender which was about 65% female because there was no other place for them in the US Navy. Also it made getting a good shore billet almost impossible.
As for the submarine tender duty, most of the women there were single parents who always had an excuse why they had to go home early or why work just could not get done because of sick kids.
Trust me I could go on and on about this subject.
Bottom Line is that the personel on the submarines are highly trained but they are not responsible and no were near the quality of the submariners 10-15 years ago. Because we are not allowed to train them properly. The people repairing these submarines are even worse.
I really hope we are not involved any thing resembling a war in our current state because some LESSONS will be learned the hard way and people will die just because they are not properly prepared and the equipment is not battle ready.
thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
Bryan <bherman699@aol.com>
Murrieta , CA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 17:38:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.213.194)
On Pistols, Bravo, anyone that can shoot a pistol can be trained to shoot a rifle minus handicaps. I have carried a pistol for a long time, daily, and just prefer a rifle to save my butt. Seen too many guys say "PLease dont shoot me again"
Got to go
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 18:25:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.200.47)
What Gooch said re: the "Hardrock" matches is accurate. I'm pretty much a newbie, really, at this. This will be my first complete year competing in matches.
The matches are on Sundays(as a rule) at the Ft. Benning English Range. These happen once a month. The other half of the tactical series is held in Ala. on a private farm. Magnificent place complete with 1000yd range. I'm getting up at 3AM tomorrow to drive there and try to get some zero shots in before the relays. The Alabama matches are generally once a month, as well. So it's two matches per month, usually.
Anyway, there are many great people; great equipment; great atmosphere. You can learn a lot ( I have). Not to mention the thrill of the doing. My excitement is my own worst enemy, but that's one of many reasons I go.
Rusty is a great guy, and I'm sure he would provide you with details. Also, the phone # for the Benning Club is 706 689 3371. Ask for Mr. McQuinn or Jim Graham. I'd throw in their email but EDS has clamped shut the corporate mailsystems due to the lastest virus scare. I think it's brpc@mindspring.com or some such.
Hey, you're in Columbus !!! You're right there..
Jeff A.
Jeff A. <d1k2l3@smyrnacable.net>
Smyrna, GA, USA - Friday, May 19, 2000 at 22:19:24 (ZULU) (your host
address: 139.76.64.4)
I've only messed with half of the thing so far and its easy to lose yourself in it. Its very well done and to tell you the truth... I wish I had thought of it!!
As soon as I can convince the rest of TRGT to come on board we will be selling it.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:38:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.175)
Kent
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 03:53:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.175)
Now go shoot. A lot. Replace barrel as needed.
STOP THE MADNESS! Stop couch-potato G-2'ing gear picks. Strap it on and go to the woods. If you don't need it, dump it. If you do need it, get it.
Sniper versus tank? You're kidding, right? I doubt a thermal-sighted main-gunner is going to use his co-ax machinegun on one knucklehead and spotter when his TC's body falls through the hatch and lands on his head. He's looking for the next incoming (fill in here: TOW, Javelin, Milan, HOT, LAW, RPG, Sagger, etc.) that's gonna smoke him. History example: Israeli tank commanders suffer the highest head/upper torso wounds of their combat arms. So did the Soviets in Afghanistan, and now the Russians in Chechnya. A buttoned-up tank is blind.
Thanks, Paul.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:11:24 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Tanks: come on you think a sniper det is going to be a priority, maybe after all the anti-armour systems are dealt with. Besides you really want to take a shot at any old tank? - Sqn comd and up yeah... but hey button em up with arty - them burn 'em with tow. Also re:thermal, you can't tell a sniper det from a fire team so why waste a HEAT rd when .50 or 7.62 coax will do.
Spotters: (I'll rest on this after - I swear) Ideally your spotter
is a qualified sniper as well - and you will be switching on and off -
Esp. if you are in a hide for awhile. Now you see the tgt - wake your buddy
- do you really want him to shoot now? Best he acts as spotter while you
do the shooting - given that, do you really want a gas gun?
M4A1's are good to at least 600m, not ideal, but sufficent. Yes
there are times when a M21/25, SR-25 etc. will do, but I don't think many
of us would want to be limited in that way - One round can get by, but
after three or four even a pre-schooler can narrow your position down
BUT I am quite willing to admit to scenarios that a 7.62 gas gun
is an effective (and possbily welcomed) aid. Tailor you kit to the mission,
not limit the mission due to your kit's insufficiencies (HEY any CDN Brass
watching)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 04:21:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.143.206)
first of all, the feedback on the choice of the "tools of the trade" you all gave was invaluable and admittedly I came out being far better informed in a lot of things. But my own beleif and bottomline regarding equipment still remains the same : Equipment is equipment and the best choise is the "hammer" that one's training, tactical, operational and deployment doctrine allows one to perform at maximum efficiency.
When it comes what "tool" shoots better MOA's, with all things being equal (training and judgement ability), I think from now on I will only accept statements that are based on test results derived from purely mechanical methods.
Want to compare two weapons ? Put the weapons, each one in turn in an anchored, stable, non-flexible vise made out of tool steel and conduct firing tests at staged distance ranges and controlled conditions.
Then take the firearms for a trip in your favourite Indian/mud/hill/mountain/
Perhaps this is "a" or "the" way to distinguish who manufactures a true combat weapon system and who manufactures something that shoots nice little tight MOA's only when the stock is glass beaded, the ammunition is handloaded with surgical precision, the shooter visits a gunsmith whose middle name is "Yoda" every week and the rifle is shot only every 15th day of the month after being trasported to the range in a velvet lined guncase (and the oracle advises the shooter that the planet allignment is right).
All firearms created equal ? You bet they are not. But nearly all
combat rifles, properly maintained, fall within a comparable and, most
importantly, predictable range of operating efficiency under nearly any
operating condition. On the other side, one comes across a civvie firearm
that boasts an AK/HK/Rem 700/K98/
Anybody under the impression that Vassily Zaitsev or Major Walter Könings returned after every mission to a beer cooler and a master armourer to breastfeed their rifles ?
This post is way too long and it is way too late in the day. Just disregard it... nothing but the ramblings of a youngster...
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 08:49:28 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 09:14:30 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
Why does everyone make the assumption a sniper must ALWAYS shoot and run away? If you're on the OFFENSIVE, with your own mutually protecting infantry, tanks, and indirect fire, you swing a mighty club as well.
Walter Reed Army Medical Research Center has done great studies on sleep deprivation. A guy may be a walking zombie after 24-48 hours continuous without sleep, and it DOES NOT affect accuracy. With a sniper rifle or 25mm chain gun he will consistently nail any target. Problem now becomes a clouded judgment call (his reactions are hindered about the same as a .01 blood-alcohol content) -- he can smoke the target within a half-minute of angle accuracy. New problem -- he smokes a friendly 50-75% of the time, bigger than Stuttgart during Oktoberfest.
Oh, and tanks seldom travel without infantry.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:32:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Anyone know if a Chandler Tactical Precision Mount will fit on an HS Precision (HTR) action?
HS says "anything that will fit a Rem 700 will fit ours as well..." but IBA says they've had at least one of their customers in TX tell them the Mount did NOT fit....
Thanks.
Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:52:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.90.112.97)
DNH <dh972@aol.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 13:55:25 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.56)
But they re-named the stuff, made some cosmetic changes, and it is still on the civilian market, without the "scary name".
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 15:58:35 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.79)
Ares: A rest/vise is probably not a realistic field expedient, but
some good points.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 16:36:04 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.1)
"CMP Rule 4-18. Ammunition. A. Rifle. Rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition."
The Navy issues Leg Match 7.62 and 5.56mm ammo to shooters who bring
their score card to center of the line prior to first relay.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:14:50 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Just finished doing my trigger as per Lito's extremely well written step by step instructions. I now have a smooth as glass 30 oz. trigger. Which should help my group size tremendously.
I encourage others to follow his instructions to the letter and you to will be plesantly surprised with the results.
Again, hats off to lito for sharing his expertise.
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Saturday, May 20, 2000 at 20:42:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.41.36.75)
IN MY OPINION too many people take their triggers too light. In my mind there is nothing wrong with a good, crisp 3 - 3.5 pound trigger. Here is my thought process...
1. In my personal experience I've had a problem with keeping a good firm grip on the rifle when the trigger gets too light. I tend to want to "baby" the trigger and lighten my grip with a light trigger.
2. I think a sub 3 pound trigger is too light for a tactical shooter when under stress. I had a light trigger (around 2 pounds) on my M24 when I went through the Army course and had a "AD" for my first sighter shot on the KD qual. I was settling in for the first shot and whoa nellie!! M40A1s are set at 3.5 pounds and my C24 is at 3.2 pounds and that's just about right for me. I can lay the finger on the trigger, get settled etc without fear of launching. I'm not talking about leaving my finger on the trigger between shots. Just talking about the placing the finger on the trigger just prior to the shot.
3. A light trigger doesn't have an absolute correlation to smaller group size. Good trigger control does. Now it could be argued that a lighter trigger makes trigger control easier but I think you lose a degree of control when you go below a certain level.
Any other thoughts on this? Lets get buisy!!
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 03:17:56 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)
out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 04:03:13 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.183)
Agree w/ Gooch on the trigger issue. Running down a wounded magpie
(12 Ga.) once a looong time ago and decided I'd finish 'im w/ one well-placed
.44 Spec. from my M29. He stopped, I stopped, and as I was pulling down
on 'im it went off in the dirt. That night the trigger was readjusted to
3 lbs. (single -action). Taught me a lesson.
Then there was the ND w/ my 7 mag... Went down range but I have
been satisfied w/ 3-5 lbs. depending on use in my firearms nowadays. What's
REALLY important is that clean break and lots of PRACTICE.
I too have used a face veil or scarf w/ my M1A. Works good but I
don't use it often. I attached some velcro to it and then velcro it to
my scope. Lays 'em right at my feet offhand and right next to the weapon
from prone. Excellent in tall grass.
May try it @ Mudville one day. I'm sure the bolt-gunner on my right
would be grateful.
Semper-Fi,
Spud,
Out
Dennis <usmcspud@mindspring.com>
merced, californicateya, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 05:52:14 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.221.21)
Tactical rifles are meant for abuse, not coddling like some princely bench rest rifle. Now don't go getting the idea I wish somebody beating my noggin baseball bat style with an M-24 clone, buuuuut,
a 6mmPPC "Tactical rifle" w/ BR type trigger weight?????
One thing I understand is the Stress concept in training based on some real life experiences and a lotta IPSC (old style) and creative training some shooting buddies came up with in the late 1970s and early 1980's while training for L-E careers, or just self preservation in bad neighborhoods.
Once that blood gets pumping and adrenaline rushes along at light speed from doing something like a simulated 400 yard Foot pursuit followed by a brief bit of fancy gunplay with a .45 auto, 9mm, or .38 revolver You develop a greater understanding of your own own mortality and physical conditioning! Yep this is "Spindley little" peteR who doesn't get fed/eat enough talking.
For those fit enough to try a 100 yard dash, say from the target bank/butts to the firing line, then unlock your POV trunk, grab said unloaded & cased rifle, run to line, (walk if other shooters are present for safety), then load a round from an ammo box or SSP and fire it at a 2" sized "T" at 100 or 200 yards. Lets try under 5 minutes for start times and decrease it from there.
Light weight "Go buttons" (UNDER 2 1/2 LBS)are better left to either the Master Snipers, or those more interested in static position accuracy shooting.
Off my soap box, and away to start sawing trim on yet another persons
home in....
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:04:48 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.183)
I'll probablt catch a lotta' flack for this, but I don't think there is "one right" weight.
You can spring set 5 different gun triggers to the same weight, and
when you shoot them, they will all feel different, due to the width (wide
ones feel lighter than narrow ones), and where the finger settles on the
trigger... lower feels lighter than higher.
Also, hands are different, and experence is different. It isn't
the number of ounces that matters, it's whether you are in control of it
that matters. If you are constantly wondering "when the hell is this sucka
going to let go"... it's too heavy.
If you are often surprised by it going off as you're just starting
up, it's too light... if you feel "it'll go any moment" and it does, you
are in control, and it's right for the gun, the type of shooting, and the
amount of stress/fatigue you have in that type of shooting.
I have field rifles that are 2 oz's (P'Dogs and Crows), and 5 pounds (Spotters matches)... and both are fine for the type of shooting they do.
Whatever it is, you need to be in control, and practice with it.
'lito.
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:54:38 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.95)
On the Chandler Mount working on a standard Remington 700. I am not sure on this but I think they clip slot the receiver on the Chandler built guns(Like the Marines) and use that slot as another mounting point on the base. If that is the case the mount will only work with a clip slotted receiver. Cost to clip slot is about 150-200.00. More if painted black.LOL
On trigger: About 3lbs is about right. Less than that and you better use only that and pray you dont go bang when you were not ready to go bang.
Rick, have a nice vacation. If you see your daughter tell her to keep her head down.
I have been working with the XM107 from Barrett. Have not shot it at greatdistance yet, but so far I really like it. It is light, for a 50, and breaks down to the biggest piece being about 32" long. Barrett is sending a backpack designed for it. I will strap it on my back and see how the thing feels to pack when it gets here. Anyone have any favorite 50 calammo they would like to see tested in one? The M99 Barrett also came in. It is also fairly light(25lbs) and looks like a very promising less than $3000.00 50cal matchg rifle. All barretts now have Krieger bbls.
Gardner is working on a McBros based Navy 50cal. That one is just waiting on a KxP bbl.
I have been shooting a great deal of the BlackHills ammo lately. It is working out very well. Somebodt finally has come along to push Federal into getting the quality back into their ammo.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 12:58:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
Bill Moore <lmalterna@aol.com>
Goodview, Va, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 16:49:26 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.200.36)
Here is the address on the side of my Slope Doper,
D.P. Rolls
RT 1 Box 128R
Burlington, WV 26710
I bought mine from Hugo at T.R.G.T., ( www.trgt.com )
Kush out!
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 21:43:51 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.28.201.32)
K. Long
E-mail chewie@srv.net
K. Long <chewie@srv.net>
Idaho, USA - Sunday, May 21, 2000 at 23:22:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.7.221.51)
I think anything less than 3.5 carries diminishing returns. If you
have to worry about dropping the hammer before you want it to it is too
light and you are wasting concentration. I tried the 3.5 with very cold,
dang near frost bit hands and could still feel it well.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 01:16:31 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.138.42.52)
Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:30 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:11:54 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Certificate Seeker <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:12:05 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Certificate Seeker. Pound sand!!
Only reason this guy wants this certificate is to generate bogus credentials.
If you are a genuine graduate of the Benning course you contact them and get what you need.
Special Forces my ass!! Dude you're on the wrong website for this shit.
Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 02:36:05 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)
Adam <sniper@specialforces.army.net>
columbus, ga, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:07:03 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.67.76.105)
Dude!...you are asking for a load of trouble....
You are comming into the Internet from:
C:\>tracert 216.67.76.205
Tracing route to nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms host1.hunters.org [207.233.164.1]
2 10 ms 20 ms 10 ms s3-3-1.crva001.volocom.net
3 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms s2-0.crva003.volocom.net
4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 166.90.148.89
5 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms gigaethernet5-ashington1.Level3.net [
6 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms so-6-0-0.mp1.Washington1.level3.net [
7 140 ms 241 ms 30 ms so-0-0-0.mp1.Weehawken1.level3.net
8 20 ms 30 ms 20 ms so-3-0-0.mp2.Weehawken1.level3.net
9 20 ms 20 ms 30 ms so-1-0-0.mp1.NewYork1.level3.net
10 50 ms 60 ms 130 ms 216.67.13.138
11 60 ms 60 ms 81 ms nyc2-r1-boston.navipath.net
12 60 ms 71 ms 90 ms nas9.boston.navipath.net [216.67.0.9]
13 371 ms 370 ms 351 ms nas-76-205.boston.navipath.net [216.67.76.205]
Most likely from the boston area - since dns naming that is done these days reflects equipment location too..
Navipath.net looks like your ISP....
Registrant:
NaviPath, Inc. (NAVIPATH2-DOM)
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
Domain Name: NAVIPATH.NET
Administrative Contact:
Investigations, Abuse (IA1764-ORG) abuse@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Hostmaster, NaviPath (HN2394-ORG) hostmaster@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- - 978-933-6201
Billing Contact:
Billing, Domain (BD3887-ORG) billing@NAVIPATH.COM
NaviPath, Inc.
800 Federal Street
Andover, MA 01810
US
877-628-4638
Fax- 978-933-6201
Record last updated on 07-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 11-Feb-2001.
Record created on 11-Feb-2000.
Database last updated on 20-May-2000 06:08:39 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
DNS.NAVINET.NET 216.67.14.5
DNS2.NAVINET.NET 216.67.31.254
They would probably not appreciate what you're doing.
More info if needed....
Ken :()
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:10:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
You'll be checkd out.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:20:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.150)
THANKS
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 03:24:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.245.243.173)
Tac Pro Shooting Center- Bill Davison
35100 North State Hwy. 108
Mingus, TX 76463-6405
254/968-3112
254/968-5857 fax
tacpro@eaze.net
Frank, if Joe has said anything to you yet, I'll drive.
JFW
Jack <jackwilson@anglefire.com>
Ft. Worth, Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 04:07:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 216.215.65.177)
PS. My diploma is sitting on the wall right next to me.
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 04:11:26 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.193.197.99)
Regarding the Springfield SAR-8, here is the sitrep :
There are 2 types of SAR-8's; pre-ban and the post-ban versions.
Pre-Ban :
Wholy manufactured in Greece by the same company that supplies the
Greek armed forces, called "EBO", which is also stamped on the receiver
itself. That rifle's receiver is stamped steel WITHOUT an integrated weaver
scope mount. Rifle manufactured by original HK tooling and it is as close
to an HK as you can get without paying over $2500 for a used original HK-91.
It also has a muzzle break at the end which serves nothing but cosmetic
purposes since it is installed about 2 inches before the end of the barrel
and the break's end is flush with the barrel crown. Those rifles come with
a sporter stock and it is quite illegal to replace it with the pistol grip
for they were made 100% in a foreign country. Price ranges : NIB-$1500,
90%-99% condition at $1200. Both figures ballpark. Damn good piece of equipment
and no longer in production.
Post-Ban (like the one you are describing) :
Three words for you on this version of the rifle - Aluminium alloy
receiver. Although majority of parts still manufactured in Greece with
the same exact specs as German HK's, the receiver and several pieces in
the trigger assembly are manufactured in the US. Receiver is manufactured
by Hesse Arms in St Paul, MN (www.hessearms.com) and it is a butt ugly
piece of crap that heats up fast, bends and after a little while and the
bolt carrier instead of being guided by the grooves in the receiver, will
end up banging against them. This is the flat-top model with the integrated
weaver scope mount. If you pay more than $900 for this, you are being robbed.
My suggestion would be to stay away from it.
Both rifles have a stainless steel barrel but the huge drawback on both is that in both cases, it is button rifled.
Even with the pre-ban model, to achieve anything close to true sniper quality performance, you would have to remove the front sight (it is clamped on the barrel), change the barrel altogether (price variable), change the trigger assembly to a PSG-1 type (about $450), install an MSG-90 style forearm guard at a bargain price of about $800 and finally weld in reinforcement rods in the side external grooves on the sides of the receiver to increase receiver rigidity.
Oh, and an HK-style, copy claw mount for a scope made by A.R.M.S. will run you at about $220 (original HK runs at about $350, all prices ballpark).
Got cash ?
Ares
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 06:51:55 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
Try emailing them at sniperschool@benning-emh2.army.mil or calling them at (706) 545-6006 / 6985, ask for SSG Broseus and explain. You would be surprised that he might remember you, which would help tons. I stay in loose contact with him and if I need something, he is the one I contact. They should be starting another class on sunday, so this week would be your best chance to have them dig through back paperwork. You might also try faxing them if you can't get them on the phone (which is sometimes very hard) at (706) 545-6693. Do you still have your orders? If you do then that would be all they need to reissue a certificate without looking to hard.
Glad you understand why you got jumped on so fast. You would be surprised at some of the crazy people that would buy a certificate and then get someone killed because of their lack of training. I get requests for certificates for our classes from police officers all the time. They sometimes confuse friendship with weakness or stupidity.
Good luck. Thomas
Adam <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 14:14:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.193.197.99)
thats like buying a Doctors title, I guess everything goes if the price is right.
But who would want to buy a sniper certificate ??? a Helo Pilot licence, OK, but a sniper certificate, I mean the job sucks ! You get lonly, cold, starved, eaten up, etc. Who would want to pay for that ????
:- )
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 15:50:48 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.119)
Youn'z out there that have me as: ken@aspire.net
Please change that email address to: ken@hunters.org
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@Hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 16:02:29 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.3.240.234)
1) Person is a collector of military memorabilia.
For a collector, it may make sense to ask as he will probably have
a difficult time finding one. But there are reasons that you can't find
them. Would anyone who has completed the training in question even consider
it an option to sell a genuine certificate (blank or otherwise)? See reason
2 above for a BIG reason why they are scarce.
2) Person is trying to "create a background
I personally have not been there or done that (the training), but
I have too much respect for those that have to ever pretend that I did.
In this case he deserves to be used as UKD mover target. He can learn first
hand about that which he seeks to pretend.
3) He is what he claim.
Once he has proven to your satisfaction that he is truly "one of
you", help him out.
I gather that this is basically what was told to certificate seeker via e-mail.
Ken, I like the posting of the trace. The idiots out there hiding behind the "anonymity of cyberspace" have no idea how quickly they can be found, or that there is no real way to hide.
You leave footprints every where you go, mud, snow, cyberspace, etc. all it takes is someone that knows how to track you.
Sorry this is so long, but I never thought I would see something from my new career posted on this site.
Steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
trying to remember how I shot awful, hand so well last year, maybe
practice more., USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 16:42:13 (ZULU) (your host
address: 151.201.137.57)
I have a custom Remington 700 with a McMillan A1 stock. I've found the comb is not high enough for me to get a proper sight picture in the scope. I am considering either getting a cheek rest, or getting a different stock (such as the McMillan A3 or A4). What are the pros and cons of each option?
How stable are the add-on cheek pieces? The only ones I know of are from Blackhawk, and they have two kinds: a tie-down version that has a fixed height, and another version with cinch straps but adjustable height by adding spacers. Are there other ones I should research? How much do they slip around and move on the stock, how durable are they in the field, etc.?
If I decide to get a new stock with adjustable cheek piece and length of pull, then what are the pros and cons of this option? How repeatable are the settings, how fragile are the moving pieces, etc.? How does H-S compare with McMillan? Any other considerations?
I don't get to check the Duty Roster as often as I'd like, so I'd appreciate if you'd please e-mail responses to me in addition to posting to the roster.
Thanks,
B. Melick
B. Melick <tmelick@yahoo.com>
Dallas, TX, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 17:13:20 (ZULU) (your host
address: 170.97.67.7)
I have a hunting rifle (Ruger M77 MkII) with a 2 1/2 pound stock trigger. This is just right for bench work, but just a bit light for hunting, especially when wearing gloves. A 3 lb trigger would be better, and a 3 1/2 pound trigger also acceptable. Both are a far cry from the 8 lb, 2 pieces of sandpaper POS that it came with.
Strangely (or not), a 2 stage trigger can have a better trigger at a heavier weight than a single stage. I probably don't need to say why. How many people here would use a two stage trigger on a sniper rifle?
Anyway, trigger weights between 2 1/2 and 5 lbs are acceptable in my very humble opinion. A crisp 8 lb trigger is better than a 3 1/2 pound sandpaper job.
Karl
Karl <dahm0030@tc.umn.edu>
Damn Cold, Mn, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 17:26:51 (ZULU) (your
host address: 134.84.148.151)
I have a question for you legitimate snipers out there. If you were to start over again courier wise knowing what you do now, would you still become a sniper? Is the calling strong enough to draw you into the field again, or would you strive for something else?
Your input is greatly appreciated.
Ryan <fly_lloyd@hotmail.com>
Kelown, British Columbia, Canada - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 19:03:09
(ZULU) (your host address: 24.65.9.152)
Sarge, if you need help in the Black Hills ammo department give me a call.
Sniper stocks, Dude it depends on what stock feels best to shoot
with. You can use an Eagle Stock Pad to raise the comb.
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 19:49:32 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
How's this:
Student Records
United States Army Infantry Center and School
Fort Benning, Georgia 31905
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 22:01:29 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
Ken -- Jeez that's scary, I thought I was gloriously anonymously surfing those porn sites (LOL)
Mike - We spell Sergeant that way too! -- You guys just don't know
how to pronounce Lieutenant.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 23:30:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.139.74)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Monday, May 22, 2000 at 23:29:40 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.102.110)
I agree, and disagree with Jerry Rice (maker of very fine < .5" rifles).
Last year, two "SWAT" officers were at the local range, sighting in their new .308 PSS's with new Lupitas. They set up full face "perp" targets, and after much fuss, both shot 3" groups on the nose of the perp targets, said they were ready for "The Match!", and left.
If you want to take a hostage, go to Cheshire CT... you are perfectly safe ;)
Most LE don't have the skill to be a consistant 1/2" shooter, even
from a bench, and surely not from a "tactical position". And the price
of a 1/2" rifle is wasted on them.
In any case, where the difference would be made between 1" and 1/2"
rifle in a LE situation, they won't get a "Go" if the target is that small...
hell, they don't get "Go" when the target is standing in the open... the
politics are currently such that they don't need all the cool stuff they
have.
There is an amazing amount of self confidence built when shooting
a fine 1/2" rifle, and watching that black spot on the target stay pretty
much the same... and once you've done that, the lesser rifles just don't
do it.
But the training time, and the practice time wouldn't be covered
by most departments. The guys in my town, considered their weapons as just
so much baggage, unless they were doing traffic stops. They had no interest
in inproving shooting skills.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 00:19:08 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.15)
And you thought the US military had it bad!!!!!
Mictac <Mictac@AOL.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 00:50:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.194.206)
"I tyake exception to your comments..."
Hey Mictac Dude... no mor badd spelen on thes syte!!
I heard about them having to say "Bang bang" on the rifle range, but didn't believe it... the worst part is:
"However, a Royal Navy spokesman says live firing is no longer necessary, and the forces have to provide value for money."
What value... as targets, while the new Rooskies teach their kids in school how to use AK's and grenades... I'll bet the Rooskies are getting "full value!!"
Hey guys... if we say "Bang bang, clang clang", at the sniper match, do we get full score for two hits, or just one?
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 01:05:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.15)
Now for the odd part. He says that Kreiger barrels tend to shoot BETTER after they've "seasoned" with 500 rounds or so. Any takers on this one? And with ammo, haven't tried this yet, so thought I would ask the experts if I'm gonna be wasting my time, is there a big difference in loading the bullet 10 thousandths or so off the lands and going another 40 thousandths so they fit in the mag AND feed?
Oh, and while I'm at it, does anyone have a blank SOTIC certificate I could get for under $20? JUST JOKING!!! Really cert seeker, dunno who you are, but if you're for real, hope you have lots of luck.
Kevin of the North: I'll ditto that comment to Ken. HAHA!
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
I'm in Utah, no, really, in Utah, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 01:25:55
(ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.179)
I guess ever so often - a comrade should clap his hands loudly once or twice near the ear of a nearby comrade. That way the near by comrade can shout MISSED!!! back at a 'virtual sniper'
Ken
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:23:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
I guess they're training - just how they will fight in their next
conflict...
Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:25:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
You guys just dazzle me with all this stuff!
Shootin Half minutes? Lord the worst Redneck I know can get off
a shot in less time than that
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:29:22 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Ken...
They're practicing for the next desert war... they'll just fly over
Bagdad, and say Boom, boom, and save all that ordance money.
The way Klinton is going, we shouldn't laugh, we may be saying "Bang,
bang" soon, we've used up all the good stuff, and there's no money to replace
it (but he spent it for the kids!!)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 02:46:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.15)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:47:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.139.8)
Kevin we mostly call Lt's by different names. I can not say them here. You agree Mike T? By the way I here he can shoot also. I would not tick him off. I made him a cuff based on my arm and he asked for a bigger one. Modeled that one off of mt stepsons thigh(about 21")
Good night all
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 03:49:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.193.27)
The average LE, in Podunk, has little interest, and the average town council has less.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 09:44:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.93)
As to what and who knows about LE Snipers. I have been doing this weekly for many years. Recently I shot a 5" group at 1000 yards from a mud puddle. I have shot many groups under .25moa (including one five shot group under .10 moa) at shorter ranges. I have gone to countless shooting events and met much better group shooters than me. Granted most of these event have taken place in Calif, but I do not think us city bread boys can do any better than the guys that grew up with rifles in trucks. When I was at the Carlos Shoot I met several PD Shooters that could best most guys on the DR antday. Autugua (Spelling?) Arms had a guy from a Fla. PD that was a very good shot. Old Dep. Dave is a fair shot and would give most of you a run for the money. Last I looked he worked in as close to Podunk as possible. Well actually Podunk is the County Seat he works in a much smaller place.
Kevin, Worl Police and Fire Games in Canada. Well dude, most of the guys that go to that are looking for a vacation. Friend of mine went whi is not a sniper, never was, and borrowed a rifle there to shoot with. Too big a hassle to get one from here into the country. Come down here and I will show you some shooters.
I know your intentions are great but LE can shoot.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 15:20:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.59)
Total agreeance on getting the best rifle you can (Don't need anymore handycaps than I give myself already)
And as far as people beating me goes - hey every weekend some civie
kicks my ass and makes me relearn humility (a local LE won this weekends
service rifle)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 15:35:16 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.141.163)
Jerry
Jerry
Rice <nor-cal@worldnet.att.net>
American Canyon, CA, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:08:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.72.192.146)
Your two cents? Yup...
I think we all agree on the need for good training, good attitude/desire, and good equipment... and the price society pays for the lack of any one of them.
Mike...
We know you're a California type, but please, this year, no Blond
ghillie suit in W.Va.!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 16:26:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.8)
Kevin no flames taken. I get my but kicked by civies also. You shouls shoot High Power against the Sharks at Sac.
Pat, I quit teaching impact weapons because I had a few students gets hurt and the Admin said "Cant you teach them to fight without contact?" Enough said
Training is everything
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 20:32:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
If you are interested contact Rusty Rossey at hardrock308@mindspring.com.
Out
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 21:48:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.179)
The way prices have been going up on reloading components I'm just
about ready to go to the range and shout "bang" too!!!!!
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, TX, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 22:04:24 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.196.109.15)
MicTac <MicTac@AOL.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:01:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.199)
MicTAc <MicTac@AOl.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:16:10 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.204.199)
--------------------------------
That is certainly one approach to the problem, but one that often
presents its own complications. First, there are any number of barrels
on the market that can be fitted to a 700 Remington with relativly little
trouble (note the
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:28:36 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
--------------------------------
That is certainly one approach to the problem, but one that often presents its own complications. First, there are any number of barrels on the market that can be fitted to a 700 Remington with relativly little trouble (note the "relativly"...I'll get back to that in a moment). These range from the fairly inexpensive such as ER Shaw barrels and the Shilen tubes that Brownells sells for under $200 all the way up to a custom-fitted Krieger or Hart. Some of the higher-end makers make "prefitted" barrels buit I note that some do not. The Winchester model 70 dosent have nearly as many "prefitted" barrels avialable on the market, though any custom barrel maker should be able to fit one of their barrels to a Winchester action with no problems. So, you can get the barrel in just about any contour you want at prices ranging from about $130 uninstalled to $600+ expertly fitted.
The question is, what do you want to do and what sort of result do you desire? If you are looking to install a "prefitted" (prethreaded and short chambered) Remington barrel yourself you can certainly tool up to do it but the action wrench and barrel vice alone can run a couple of hundred dollars, then you get to buy a chamber reamer and headspace gauges. It can easlity cost $400 to get the basic tooling, which aint that bad if you forsee doing ten+ rifles but hard to justify if you are only looking to do one. Now, that is just to torque up a mass-produced barrel to a mass-produced reciever and set the correct headspace with no tweaking. Such a combination may shoot 1/4 MOA but there are still a number of varialbles that have not been elminated and can still keep you rifle from shooting to its full potential. It can beat 1 MOA in most cases and often a fair bit better (but then so will a factory 700VS/Sendero). Beyond that, a savvy home gunsmith can manage to pull some of the basic tricks like lapping the locking lugs to fit the reciever but *realy* fitting up a high-end barrel to an action requires a good lathe and considerable skill with it to precisoon chamber the barrel and then true the action and breech end of the barrel for a perfect fit. This is of course not practical for most folks, hell not even for most gunsmiths.(I'd about kill for even a cheap Chinese lathe at this point). When the guys on this list chatter on about their 1/4 MOA tack-drivers they are generaly either talking about rifles that have had the best barrels fitted by the best armorers or they are shooting rifles that they have lucked into that have no business shooting as well as they do and they know it. Elimination of the element of chance is what costs the big money. So, what do you want to do?
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Tuesday, May 23, 2000 at 23:31:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 129.252.167.152)
Jim <broonsma@prodigy.net>
PDX, Or., USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 01:12:20 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.255.13.4)
I dont know too many people that can shoot as well as their guns capability in "non-benchrest" type conditions.
Out here
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 02:53:44 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.168)
Steve, wrong you are. I dont care what some guy wrote. A 1moa shooter plus a 1moa rifle equal an extreme spread of 2moa. That is what matters. You add the varibles and get to the extreme spread. We dont subtract for bullet diameter or holding our breath.
Pablito, I read your post again and I must say it is not your usual style. I would like to know how many LE Shooters you have shot againstor trained to get the idea we can not shoot. I know I can and that I am far from the exception. I played the Carlos Match back in my mind and LE did well. I remember being in the class shoot off and having Rusty take it from me after about thirty minutes, I believe third was a LE guy, man I wish I could remember his name. He was the real deal. I shot the actual match and did poorly by my standards and still managed a third individual. Most comps were either Mil or Civies. LE did well. I have also played the last twenty years back and have not found LE Snipers to be bad shots. A few have been fair but most are truly good for the 100-300 yard stuff. We limit them to about 200 for liabilty reasons and the fact that in most cases we can get closer. Why take a shot in your yard from the next town if you dont have to. Just because we shoot up close does not mean we can not shoot from a distance. Don't confuse that. I know your comments were not directed at me but we are a brotherhood and I take pride in my brothers. This is not to harp on you.
Mike T. Good guys had a few flaws I wont go into on an open board. One thing for sure is it was not an easy shot. Many guys can shoot small groups but when the poop hits the fan the groups go to poop on most.
I remeber a friend who was a hell of a pistol shot. He got into a shoot out in the middle of the street. Rounds going every where. Weapons smoking and when it was all over the only thing killed was an car 20 yards out of the way. No one here knows what you will do until the stuff flies.
Been shot did not like it. Had my patrol car shot. Not fun. Been cut about the same feeling. Not good. Seen guys shot with pistols did not work and had to knock one down after he had three rounds in him . Really did not like that one. Never shot anyone with my sniper rifle. Hope I dont have to and if I do I hope you guys dont find fault with my shooting. Hell of a responsibilty anyone that thinks we LE can not shoot want it?
Undude
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 04:23:07 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.200.56)
Mike don't forget ammo - sometime we tend to handicap ourselves further
than we have to...Opened my eyes to that (again) shooting issue SS109 stuff
(C77) then went to 77gr HSM - Same with 175gr .308 in the GM2 -compared
to some other offerings.
Better ammo with better gun make me look better (or at least cuts
out my excuses)
Have a good'er
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 05:35:03 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.136.124)
Wow! Well said! It is kinda tough to follow up on a thread after
your last message!
I know you are doing it to help humanity, cause they sure don't
pay you enough for all that you do!
Thanks for reminding us that it is a little different going up against
bad guys than opening up the trunk and sitting down at the bench and squeezing
off a couple of rounds at a non-moving paper target!
Michael
Michael <mike1000@pacbell.net>
San Jose, CA, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 05:41:43 (ZULU) (your
host address: 63.192.208.6)
In regard to the LEO's shooting abilities I am compelled to comment. I found that most (not all) of the "snipers" in my county, well, suck to be kind. I must admit there are a few who are excellent at what they do. The sniper unit I spend most of my time around has all the high speed stuff you can think of and on any given day are lucky to keep a 2" group at the 100 yd line using .5 MOA capable rifles. I don't even want to talk about a cold bore shot or the fact they have no dope past the 100 yd line. I often out shoot them with my iron sights and when I use my 700 PSS no competition.
I have come to the conclusion that they have read too much Guns and Ammo stuff and believe their own propaganda. Trust me if you're taken hostage here stike a deal with the bad guy...or else. A quick test of a LEO sniper is to mention the longest firing range in area (over 100 yds)and see what their response is. If it's "where's that"? you have you answer.
OK, I'm off my soap box and thanks for any input on the 300 loads.
joe <spojoehpd@aol.com>
san diego, ca, USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 09:40:50 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.215.153.180)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 24, 2000 at 12:30:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)