Hey, glad it worked out for you. I know the sick feeling the first time I saw that "Rust". Sweets has always worked for me. PS, dont leave it in the bore. Dry out the Sweets and run an oiled patch through the bore. Just be sure to dry out the oil before shooting.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:06:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.161)
A question for Rick at Bragg. We have recently been issued the PVS-10
and are trying to work the bugs out. It seems to hold it's zero and doesn't
have too much of a change between day and night operation (left 1.5 min
on mine). What's driving us crazy is the narrow field of focus on the ocular
lense. It seems that if the shooter is not perfectly aligned behind the
glass the image is terribly distorted. And what's with the yellow tint?
Have we failed to adjust the unit properly? Is there a fix for the problems?
I haven't had the opportunity to speak to anyone that has had a lot of
time behind the unit. Was hoping you might have some advise. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:28:15 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.163.142.12)
Next point, we are pointedly not answering "what can we do about IR" becasue this is an open forum that does not need to contribute to some butt lick using a technique learned here to screw with Mike or his buddies.
Have fun guys and hold hard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:34:26 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.212)
Good luck with the PVS-10s and let the chain of command know it is garbage. It is the only way you can fight back against this type of BS in the procurment system.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:44:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.212)
Greg: Stop Lurking - are you going to go shooting w/ Rob and I on
Sunday?
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 04:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.138.107)
I've never had any experience with U.S. made suppressors, but I have used a few different types down here in New Zealand as there are no restrictions on the ownership or use in this country.
You buy them over the counter the same as a 'scope or sling.
The most common types used on .22s are the Parker Hale screw on type and a locally produced PVC pipe model sold as the "Silent Kill".
The Parker Hale retails for about NZ$90 (approx US$45)and is very
quiet when used with sub-sonic ammo.
It requires the muzzle to be threaded.
The Silent Kill is a slip on type that is a little bulkier than the
P.H. but no alteration is required to the muzzle and it only adds 2 inches
the the length of the barrel.
Retails for about NZ$60 (US$30).
A small company by the name of Percy Engineering makes suppressors
for all calibres up to .308 and they are very good as well.
The one fitted to my .300 Whisper is superb!
(NZ$200-300)
He also does full-length ported barrel models for 10/22, Camp Carbine
etc.
I have also read good reports on ones made by Robbie Tiffin of Gunworks in Christchurch.
I don't know how you would go about importing them into the USA but it might be a lot cheaper and just as good as a US made one.
Suppressors are very common on .22s in this country for rabbits and possums, especially on 10 acre "lifestyle" blocks.
One target club in Auckland mandates their use on their range in the local community hall.
Some speciallist Police and Army units use MP5SDs but I don't know about any tactical use of suppressed .22s.
I will dig out the contact numbers of the makers mentioned and post them for all, but if anyone has any questions feel free to contact me.
Sniff, in the Land of the Long White Cloud.
Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 07:42:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
203.96.49.14)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 09:55:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.20.198)
Re: Hesse Arms
I'm fairly new to FALs, but the FAL Files is an excellent site with
a great forum for learning all things FAL. Most on the forum are not big
fans of Hesse. I have a personal Hesse customer service bitch, but I'll
not get into details. In short, I paid a 13% restocking fee because they
sent me garbage parts. Most FAL shooters do not think very highly of Hesse.
If you are willing to go to the $1000+ range, email me, and I'll get you
in touch with some good FAL builders. They're regulars at FAL Files. Mark
@ Arizona Response Systems, Rich @ Century Gun Work (NOT CAI), Mike @ MSC,
etc. Also, DSA builds brandy new FALs, but they have a waiting list.
Byron
Byron <bef122@psu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 13:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
128.118.19.11)
About the only application you will find is to be a cop and try to get on a SWAT team in a few years. I have never heard of a department that will take you "as is" and put you to work as a sniper. You'll have to get years of experience as a cop first.
Advice? Stay in, change MOS's to something you can use on the outside, get a degree while on active duty, THEN get out.
This is from a guy who spent 21 years in the military, USMC and Army sniper, CQB trained and all of that shit. Stay in.
SSG Maries, I think you can thank the Benning crew for the POS-10 (Piece of Shit-10). Am I right Rick?
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 17:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.160)
Rick: SORRY for the request for info on defeating IR. DOH! Just wasn't
thinking about "the audience". After talking "personally" with so many
of the guys here, I forget there are those that aren't "good guys". Sometimes
my curiousity over-rides my common sense. But does it have anything to
do with releasing 1000 fireflies from a 2L bottle all at once when you've
been spotted? ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 10,
2000 at 18:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Pablito raised a point at the time that I agreed with:
I was arguing that it was a bit foolhardy to just willy-nilly start experimenting with putting different substances on rounds, as the effect MAY be unpredictable and even dangerous to someone who doesn't know what he is doing. Pablito raised the point (as I recall) that while it may be true with some substances, that the ones he recommended were safe and that the audience at SC was experienced enough in reloading, etc. that they would not do something too foolish anyway (or words to that effect. Sorry Paul, I don't remember the exact quote, but I think it's fair to say that my misquote abides by the spirit, if not the words.)
Anyway, we ended the argument agreeing on that basic point. 'Nuff said.
These days I do not actively participate on this site, but I do get the chance to read it occasionally. While I still generally agree with Pablito's point about the relatively high reloading experience found on this site, certainly with him and some others, I am still DUMBFOUNDED to notice the all-too-often pleas for a "pet load," or postings of the same.
If you need to ASK for a good starting load for a given standard round and a common powder, like a .308 Win, 300 mag, 7mm, or whatever, then you shouldn't BE reloading. Put the tools down and back away from the bench.
1). This information is commonly published in about 25+ easily available reloading manuals. What? You don't USE reloading manuals? Then you shouldn't be reloading, no matter how experienced you think you are, someday something will bite you, maybe through no fault of your own. You might seriously hurt yourself or another simply because Joe Shmoe told you that he likes 50 compressed grains of Varget in his .308 and you didn't bother to look it up. Use the books, they keep getting reprinted for a reason.
2). Every rifle is different. Every individual rifle of a given model is different. Every individual rifle will shoot differently in different situations. If by "pet load" you are interested in accuracy (and why wouldn't you be?), then you will need to find your OWN accuracy load anyway. Maybe you'll find Pete's 44.0 grains of Varget to work best in your situation, maybe you won't, but just because it works best in Pete's smokepole, doesn't mean it will do anything special in yours.
3). "But I was only asking for advice so that I can test it in my rifle!" That may be true, but only a real stroke just takes a "pet load" from another person, and fires it off in their rifle without doing both of the following: a). Verifying it to be reasonable in a book or two, b). reducing it by 10% first, then working up to intended charge. Once you have verified a reduced load and started working up to find your individual sweet-spot, then it is 100% YOUR responsibility to know what is safe in your INDIVIDUAL rifle.
4). For the same reason, It does little good to post that 47.6gr of powder XXXX shoots sweet in your rifle, as it may not in another and any safe reloader will try it first at about 43gr anyway.
5). "But I already shoot 47gr of powder XXXX in my rifle, so why should I reduce to 43gr just to make sure that 47.6 is safe?" Well if you already shoot 47 grains in your rifle and know it is safe, then you probably don't have to reduce to know whether 47.6gr might be safe. But this raises another question: How did you arrive at 47gr? Did you find that charge in a book, on advice, or from testing? If you got it from a book or from advice, then you probably haven't done load development so you have no idea if 47gr is an optimum load in your rifle. And if you have no idea whether 47gr is optimum, why would you think that 47.6gr is optimum? Just because someone says so? On the other hand, if you settled on 47gr because your load testing showed it to be an optimum charge in your rifle, then 47.6gr is irrelevant for you anyway.
In the end, EVERY reloader needs to stop taking powder charge advice from others, safe or otherwise, and learn how to develop a proper load for himself, BASED ON, but not literally, load advice found in books or trusted friends. Only a fool blindly shoots any load handed to him. Only a bigger fool thinks that just because 44.0gr of Varget shoots well in xxx's rod, it will be optimum for his. 90% of the fun in reloading, is developing a good load. If all you want is someone else's work, then you deserve what you get.
Maybe a good thread to start here is the proper way to develop an accuracy load for your rifle. This hasn't been done in a while (and I promise I'll stay out of it this time).
Enough said, sorry for all the toes I am no doubt stepping on, but anyone who actually needs ask how much H4831 to use in a .30-06, probably needs the advice.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 18:57:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
Thanks.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 19:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.251.30.4)
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 21:59:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.207.202)
I don't disagree with you... it was maybe the wording, that if you
see them, they see you.
I believe that if you see them... and you do your job well... they
won't see you.
But you can't try to overwhelm them with technogology... the more active you are, the more vulnerable you are.
I am NOT an advocate of overloading IR with flairs... if you try that, YOU WILL DIE!
Buy the way... I'm sending you some day-IR photos that will get your attention :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 22:35:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.24)
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net
or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, Commiefornia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:43:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.101)
Many of those individuals that I have specifically asked about load data were leery to disclose or discuss any specifics until many e-mails have been sent and they have become somewhat comfortable with the knowledge, experience and load developement techniques of the person asking for advice. In this litigous society that we now live in, it only makes sense to get to know the experience level and counsel accordingly.
NOW, how do I work up loads?
1) Decide which bullets I want to try to shoot.
2) Decide which powder(s) have a burning rate suitable for the round,
the bullet weight, and the specifics of the rifle in question. (barrel
length, bolt vs auto loader, etc.)
3) Choose the primer(s) that you will try.
4) Determin O.A.L. for the rifle if I am not restricted to magazine
length.
5) Prep the cases - trim to min, flash holes, primer pockets, etc..
6) Determine the starting loads (usually book max minus 10%-12%),
and what will initially be considered as maximum. This will be below the
books listed Max.
7) Load 5 rounds per load (this is done for all combinations of
bullets, powders, and primers chosen), increasing the load by half grain
until initial max is reached.
8) Shoot these loads over a crono for group at 100 yards.
9) Check for pressure signs. If the pressure sign (or lack of it)
indicates that you may do so safely, consider going past the hottest loading.
This is done only if the groups are getting smaller as the charge is increasing.
Go forward very carefully in .2 grain increments.
9a) If so indicated, test the "hotter" loads at 100 yards as above.
10) Pick the ones with that have both good groups AND consistent
velocities, and load fifty of each load.
11) Shoot these loads as 10 shot groups at 300 yards (over a cronograph),
never firing the same load (as 10 shot groups) consecutively. The groups
are spread out so that the conditions equal out.
12) Average the size of each loadings five 10 shot groups, as well
as the average velocity, extreme spread and standard deviation for each
loads fifty shot set.
13) Decide which load is best.
14) At this point, I shou;ld have decided on the load that I will
probably shoot for the life of that barel.
15) If not, I go out and but some Federal Gold Medal, or Black Hills.
16) If still no good, then I sell the BI*CH!
Flame On Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely) ;)
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south werst, pennsylvnia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:49:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.159)
Are any of you familiar with the custom Remington 700’s that Texas Guns of San Antonio, TX turns out?
One of my customers received one in a trade and I did the paperwork for the transfer. I was expecting a standard Remington 700 VS LH .223. This little beauty started out that way; but what a change. Upon opening the box, I found a 700 VS LH with a 20” fluted bbl., deep target crown, and beautifully blued. The action was slick and the trigger broke at around 2 ½ lbs. I fell in love with the bloody thing and wanted to keep it! Immediately called the dealer who shipped it and found out who made it. Called them and found out that they do them in several different calibers. They are all cut down to 20” except the .300 Win. Mag., which they cut to 22”. They claim that most will shoot ½ minute @ 100 yds. all day long. I definitely “NEED” one of these. Please tell me that these are great rifles!!!!!!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:22:58
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.73.76)
Winchester
winchester <primetimein69@yahoo.com>
Savoy, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:23:31 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.253.56.166)
Shriver - Spent three years selling my talents to the highest bidder. Usually Saudi Arabia but had other takers, I'm such a whore. Gooch is right on the market of selling your talents. I have over 23 years of Spec Ops, and had worked with the Dept. of State folk, Secret Service folk, DIA, CIA, and a few other of the campbells soap folk. the only reason I could do it for three years was I had a steady retired pay check and my wife works. You also must have contacts with the above folk to get permission to do certain areas and deeds or they will revoke your rights as a citizen, yep you will become a stateless person and they do not kid around. I am now the proud double dipper that all congressmen fear and hate. It was just easier to keep doing this with the government. I accepted the fact that I will never be any richer than I am good looking. This is of course self explanitory to the guys who have seen my ugly face in person.
Marius - Gooch is right, believe the POS 10 comes from a collaboration of Aberdeen and Benning in the school of wouldn't it be cool if. Thus comes the answer to an unasked question.
Bravo - No problem it is easy to forget who all may come on board. I am just as guilty of yabbering away without thought of who else reads this forum. Scott used to keep me well in hand with gentle remeinders. Now I have to exercise self (shudder) discipline. I have even had some of my highers ask about my ramblings on this site before.
Kevin - Your points are never useless. You have made many a fine point during these threads.
Let me go to bed, students gone and tomorrow we shoot for ourselves!!! Joy! I tell the students that this is the second best job in the army! The first best job is this job without the students taking up our range time! ;-)
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 01:15:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.209)
Don't blame the Benning guys for the PVS 10. They kept turning in
reports that said the thing was trash. From day one they wanted it to go
away. After a year and a half of bitching they were told that it was too
late since the Army had bought around 5000 of them and it had a NSN.
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 02:07:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.81.112.36)
all the store could give me was that it was supposed to have been
made up for the military for shooting Nato matches. All the work was supposed
to have been done by military armories. They had had it for several years
to eventually put back together as a project gun as it was sort of in pieces
when they bought it but never got around to it and it just collected dust.
Looks like the original 788 stock was seriously modified and expertly glass
bedded by some one who knew their stuff.
Have heard of lots of conversions but have never seen or heard of
military conversions of 788s before.
finally got it back together after some serious cleaning and it
shoots really great.
if anyone has info, would be greatly appreciated.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.153.185.105)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:33:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Howdy Dude!... I owe you an appology. I thought that one should be
able to discuss loading tecniques on this site, that went past the page
2 beginers warnings in the loading manuals... but I was wrong.
Every time I brought up something past the basics, I got tons of
flack about all the stuff you "can't" do 'cuz your gun will blow up...
So I stopped talkin about those things... I went down in de-feet,
from the "chicken littles" on this site... however, you wanna load some
.308 "H.E.A.T.... drop me an e-mail ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 08:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.133)
A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already
peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:39:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.24)
Bill - That would be my luck as well. There is always way to much fire power on the wrong end of where ever I try to do my thing!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:47:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.194)
Andre with the ',
A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already "sniping" with the best
of them. A GREAT START friend!
Ofta handloading immolation Nirvanaland with Lito, UnDude, Bill R,
Pat Murphy, Scott, Tony Y, Bravo, danr, Boltster, and the rest of the helpful
ones.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:49:36 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.24)
I stand by what I said, but I'll clarify my intent: THis site SHOULD be a good source of info on the TECHNIQUES of handloading, including such topics as Load Develpment, Case Prep, Tools of the Trade, Bullet Selection, etc. Even basic how-to would be great for the less experienced crowd, or those who want to start (which I would recommend to all of you on this site who don't already reload you own).
This idea has nothing to do with fear of litigation or that Pete's pet load of 200gr of Varget, smashed in an hydrolic press, then shoved into a .308 case, along with a cherry bomb, will harm anybody. My position is based 100% on the idea that a reloader, any reloader, takes the responsibility upon himself for all that he doesand also must work up his own rifle's accuracy load. There are plenty of readily available tables for the handloader to get load data, or confirm load data received from others. If someone tells me to load up 49gr of some powder I've never used before, then I'd be a moron if I didn't a). consider the source carefully, b). try to confirm the reasonableness of the load somewhere "official."
Beyond the personal safety issue is the basic one that YOUR load will probably NOT be my load (for optimum accuracy). If one is faced with the task of reducing a stated charge and working up an accuracy load anyway, then what do you need advice from someone you don't even know for?
Hey, I'm all for a discussion of various techniques (sadly lacking sometimes here in favor of unsavory animal "husbandry"), but anyone who actually needs to ask what a good .30-06 load might be, then is also willing to fire off that load without ever confirming that it's reasonable in their rifle, deserves what he gets. This information is NOT top secret. You can go into any gun store and find oodles of load data for all of you favorite powders. I'm not trying to stifle anything, just to say that load data (re: powder charge) is an individual thing that will be modified anyway, so what's the point in even asking?
Steve:
While I don't think most people here would do it, I think there are plenty of people who would just take a load I spout off and fire it off without checking. I've seen it many times. I'm glad you would not. I saw a guy at a range last year blow primer after primer in a rifle firing way too hot, who was dumbfounded because his buddy shoots this load all the time in his rifle without ill effect. People do this. Lots of smart people own guns, but lots of morons do also. Explaining to someone how to do proper case prep is a lot more helpful to newbie and expert alike, than the harm that can come because some stroke won't read a charge table.
Thanks for you best wishes Mike. I still haven't tried one of those mercury reducers, but I've been eyeing my rifle but lately, so who knows. I may have to get a sling order off to you one of these days.
Howdy Pete. Or was it two cherry bombs?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 11:58:32 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
"my greatest fear is failing my team-mates"
Last night, I was witness to a "brother in need" scenario and found nearly half my team-mates paralyzed by an overwhelming need to cover their own "arse" . This was not a particularly apocalyptic crisis, and the half that didn't have a philosophical crisis saved the day...
I am left wondering... how is it that failing your team (buying sub-standard
gear, presidents that lie, standing by while a mate dies because your too
scared to act).... how has this become even remotely acceptable? When did
personal accountability cease to be a norm?
Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 12:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
I think its time for the DOD to force the sevices to adopt the same sniper rifle systems. WIth the USMC building their M40's with Unertl and the Simrad, the Army with the M24 w/Leupold/POS-10 and the Navy with thier Macmillans (or whatever they have this week) its getting pretty hairy.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.158)
Andre'...
I still don't think this is a site for beginners handloading...
there is so much "how to trim your cases", "how to work up a load", and
"how to set-up your first set of dies" information around, that it would
bog this site to a stop, if we went there.
There has to be some expected level of function on a site like this, or all the discourse will go to ground.
If we discuss "Go bags" and Alice kits, we can't start out with "How
to pick out a canteen at your local Wal-Marts"... it has to ba assumed
that people that are attracted to this site, have achieved a mid or higher
level of functioning in shooting, and outdoor skills, and if we keep going
back to entry level on every topic, the very people that you want the answers
from, will leave and go elsewhere.
This was discussed about about 8 weeks ago... started by a timely
thread started be UnDude, which made the same point.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.72)
However, beginners DO exist on this site (evidenced by questions like "What's a good load for a .308 round for my new rifle?"). My feeling is simply that the first lesson that a beginner should learn is that everybody's loads are their own (for accuracy, not proprietary, reasons) and that the info that they seek is found in numerous books.
If someone wants to ask a question about case trimming, or something,
that's their business, but they shouldn't be asking about THAT, if they
can't even find a good load for a common round on their own. Does that
make sense?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:59:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
I thought that 44.0 grains of VARGET was a mid range load according to Hodgdons? Has that changed?
Exceptional accuracy and the ability to work at any temp range was what I, and a number of "trade" individuals who wish to remain out of the limelite, derived through a bit of scientific testing.
As far as I know, you were the first to post a totally unacceptable and despicably unsafe load 50.0 grains of VARGET in a .308 (EVEN IF IN JEST DUDE......) THATS SCARY in todays read only halfway society.
If it was not for T&E and publishing, both data here and elsewhere, we would all still be using the somewhat sterile "target" loads used for three or four decades in bullseye competition.
Time to "evolve" and get back to using hmmmmmm 43.5 grains of Varget and firing five shots to test a load ..........
;-)
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:47:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.161)
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:53:35 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.79.207.47)
Pete,
Yes, I still eat Varget on my Bran every morning, after "Blending"
as per lito's instructions, and would be trying to shoot it in the 6.5x284
except that the new "Short Cut" 4831 is a slower version of Varget with
the same qualities!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
You can paint the scope body, obviously not the lenses and turret caps on the scope.
1)Remove and lightly spray da caps exterior after masking the innards.
2) Leave them intact and cover with burlap, pantyhose, removable
bow tape, etc. etc.
anybody else???
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.162)
Jeeesus! if you need a load buy a can of Varget, the load max's are
on the side just like calories on a Pepsi Can. You ain't gonna blow up
yore gun. More likely you'll smoke up your safety glasses (which I hope
you're wearing or blow your ear drums when you fail to put on your protectors).
Ackley tried to blow up guns and couldn't put enough powder in a case to
do it. A piece of mud in a 12 gauge barrel or a stuck plastic case half
way up the barrel is far more likely to blow your gun and kill you than
the worst reload you ever heard off.
I've seen guys blow a primer and almost faint, I've even stuck a
bolt so damn tight I had to send it in to get it out but nothing is likely
to blow, just watch your eyes and be darn careful around semi autos and
you'll live as long as me. The most common reload problem I know is with
a well known loading Manual that has .270 win and .270 weatherby printed
in such a way that I know of several people who have loaded the weatherby
in the .270. Big smoke blown primers and stuck bolts but a good bolt gun
will hold. Pat; expierenced what many of us have with custom chambers.
Smith's use the smallest chambers assuming you want some kind of accuracy
from out of the box factory
ammo. This is a futile gesture in that most of the good loads are
fire formed anyhow. Another problem is with the difference between factory
and military loads. The cases are different in their metal and size, But
you won't blow a good gun with it.
I saw a double charge of 231 and many times bullseye in .45 colts
blow the clip out the bottom but some revolvers will blow the frame apart
and rupture the chambers. The chances you gonna screw up on the
scale readings or the reading the books is your biggest enemy.
Be sure you read your powder scale correctly!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
I am not getting into the reloading discussion.
Everything PD's and the Military buy has to do with Politics
Looking forward to seeing some of you in June.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.200.22)
I can emphasize with both of you, been there situationally - didn't like it one F#$%^ing bit. Specially when your "backup" is peeking round the corner half a block away, if they get the nerve to show up.
Its far worse as you know, when you have to go in and defuse, or attempt to gain control a thing gone REAL bad, or the fans on frappe'
Don't let Un-Dude fool you guys, for a Bionic Man he's in awful good shape. Just like my pal the Depity ;-)
Stay Safe!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:35:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.57)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:52:48
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.32.221.103)
And thanks for the recognition PeteR, beginning to feel like a "regular"
:-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, May 11,
2000 at 17:09:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Patron Dave, forgot to ask, you an Ag, or just know about Rudder's
Rangers? On the list of accomplishments, you might wanna add the F-15 Strike
Eagle (if what I was told was true).
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
here we go again in the, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:15:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.9.223.170)
OPSEC: I don't think about it much these days - But I am wholehearted agreement with Rick (I think I already mentioned it). When you are face to face with buddies, you can shoot the shit and have a open forum. But with this you never know who someone is - and you never know who's lurking. There are alot of things that civvies don't need to know. I think we'd all feel pretty shitty if some greasy turd learned something valuable off here, to drop some LE. Bad enough some grow ops are getting hi-tech they don't need help.
Dave: MH says Canuks can't go to SOTIC? Don't trust us? - I am wondering if Gene Econ's liberation comments have some truth. Dropped some HSM and am trying to see if we can offcially use it.
Anyway Shooting question here - anyone got any ideas on cleaning up my HK91 trigger w/o a PSG1 system.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:30:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.129.51)
If you're just a joe six-pack, and not even a wannabee, then why are disturbed because some sensitive information on defeating police or military equipment, is not made available to you? Are you looking for cool cocktail party chatter?
Remember that it's not just a dozen folks that read this site... there are some 1000 to 2000 folks a day that drop by are read this stuff, and not all of them come with a pedigree.
Why would you need to know how to defeat Day-IR... and how would the person who gave out that information feel, if they read the papers, that those same techniques used in a crime?
There is no closed club here... you wanna be a regular, just post on a regular basis.
And about RC cola, Moon pies, and sheep... you better lighten up dude!! :))
Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 19:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.29)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 21:55:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.116.83)
Kevin, of that Great Country to our north known the world over as
Canada - SOTIC was restricted to US forces only. HOWEVER, just last year
we had two seperate occasions in which snipers from Germany attended our
course. This may mean a lessening of the restrictions, which would be fine
by me, or a goof in protocol. I would vote for the goof, because to lessen
the restrictions usually involves the stars on high. None of us on the
commitee have heard of any changes and were surprised by the students.
Heck, check with the US Army LNO in your area and see what can be done.
I am assuming that you are still active military with a reason to attend.
:)
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:47:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.188)
Please don't take it personally if others on this forum prefer to avoid certain topics.
I am also not military or LE. Most (95%+) of my customers are. I'm an old woodchuck and deer hunter who loves precision shot placement, ear-to-ear on a chuck at 250 yds., or heart or spine shot on a deer. I like slinging large bullets at targets 1000 yds. away, too. A love of rifles and the skills involved in using them is what brings me here, so I think that we are not too far apart in this.
Point is, many of my customers want to remain somewhat anonymous for a variety of reasons, the possibility of retaliation towards themselves or their loved ones by bad guys being a major (and valid) concern. " Blown cover" is another issue, same reason that some of the reluctant "stars" of network TV programs appear in shadows or with their faces blurred. Some of the people that I deal with on this site have only revealed their true line of work to me after over a year of dealing with me, and after having personally met me and getting to know me. It's not cloak-and-dagger stuff, just plain old self-preservation. I cannot help but respect their wishes.
Same goes for discussion of certain topics that could negatively impact the day-to-day performance of their jobs, jobs in which they daily put their lives on the line. I do not feel that everyone in the US (or the world, within the context of Internet postings) has the need or the right to know everything. Consequently, I believe that certain topics of discussion may (and should) be curtailed on this or any other responsible site.
Don't take offense at someone saying, "I don't think that this is an appropriate topic for this forum, because the information could get a cop or soldier killed if it became widespread knowledge."
Please continue to post, ask questions, and contribute your knowledge to the site. Everyone xere has learned something from someone else.
Best Regards from Just Anorther Shooter.
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM On Fire, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:53:38 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.30.122.48)
Mr. Mussack: Sir, if you don't prefer sheep, may I suggest a truly Canadain animal? Try beaver. We like it so much up here, we even put it on our 5 cent coins! Sure, the furry little buggers stink like hell. But once you get by the smell, man, you got it licked!
OPSEC: Unfortunately, this is just reality. I guess if we civies want to know all the "good stuff", we better be prepared to haul ass down to our recruiting offices and sign up.
Rick B: Once we pass boot camp, when do we get to know the pass word and the secret hand shake? I supopose in Special Forces, they would have a whole book of those! Just kidding, just kidding.
By the way, anyone know the best load for...oops! Sorry.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:14:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 142.177.54.49)
As a member of the Virginia Army National Guard and a sniper candidate
here in a unit in the Northern Virginia area, I am attempting to learn
all that I can about sniper training. My question is, are there different
classifications of military snipers? Someone recently asked me if I was
a "Class II" sniper, and I quite honestly didn't know how to respond, other
than to say that I was not yet a sniper, but working towards that goal.
Can you tell me anything about the different sniper classifications, if
any?
I am curious to know, is all. Thanks in advance for any information
you might be able to provide me! I think your website is fantastically
laid out with good information, and most importantly, a wonderful goal
for those who are serious and mature military and police snipers and aspirants.
Sincerely,
Warren Gregory
Warren Gregory <kenshaku@pressroom.com
>
Alexandria , Virginia , USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:22:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.249.182.208)
What adjustment or adjustments would you make to your scope to hit a target at 100 yrds if the target lets say is in a train moving 60mph and you are in a smooth riding jeep running parrallel with the train at the same speed. Assuming 1/4 moa clicks and 0 wind .
I remember a year or two ago, Marius I think, used to post questions like this in the form of a game. A lot of fun thinking about this stuff.
Hey Sarge you still shooting Savages?
BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:19:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.238.71.233)
Drop the chalupa? Hand me a moon pie! I'll pass on the sheep.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with unconstitutional laws, formerly known as
the, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.208)
To answer your question about ring lapping... maybe!
The Badger rings are made better than any other ring you can buy,
that’s probably why you bought them.
The Base is made the same exacting standards also.
HOWEVER the good people at Remington might not be quite as picky
as the guy at Badger Ord.
Its like building a house if the foundation is bad, the walls are
not perfect and the roof will suffer too!
If it requires lapping it won’t be much.
Remember install the base after the action is torqued in to the
stock this will pull some of the twist and warp out of the action and minimizes
effect on the mount.
Martin Bordson
Badger Ordnance
Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:34:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.186)
I now am working on another military style fun shoot for the fall. We have 100 acres with a dry creek bed running thru it. We want to develope some sort of event where we gear up in full battle dress and fire from several positions. Some ideas were to be under fire from paint ball shooters, fire on autos, at targets etc.
Any ideas out there that we could work into our shoot? Anyone is
welcome to attend and I will post a date before long.
Mark 303-377-0034
Mark Mason <whacemason@usa.net>
aurora, co, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:09:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.245.2.199)
Mr Bordson, welcome!
Mr Mussack, welcome!
R-C COLAS! MOONPIES! sSSHHHEEEEP! Secret Handshakes and decoder rings
(w/ mildot capability no less!)Damn, what did I miss in eight Duty Roster
deprived hours?
Al O,
I'll let you deal with mrs peteR, PERSONALLY, for that last pix
of the Chalupa, terrified to wits end by,
Retch!
Ugh!
Shudder!
GASP!
That Thing.................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:37:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.49)
Kevin Mussack is alright. Know him personally. Him and his son attended a course at SMTC during my tenure there. Other than Kevins affinity for the local four legged fair he is good to go:-)
Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)
I don't know the exact circumstances of the incident you were involved
in, but figure it was probably law enforcement related.
I have seen a few people freeze up under pressure, but generally
have been lucky with the guys who work my precinct, because even though
we have a few boneheads, we never have to worry about getting help from
anyone. Officers on other precincts are not always so lucky.
I think Mike Miller in particular hit upon some good points. One thing in particular was, as he put it, the Me Me Me syndrome. Another thing I have noticed is the school of thought that tries to manipulate image, often by using ambiguous terms that try to make everything seem bright and rosy. Everyone can see right through that. Unfortunately, many higher ups fail to realize that if the function of a unit is squared away, the image will reflect that. The same is true for individuals.
But what to do? No matter how hard we try, there will always be some idiots who fail to realize how serious, sometimes deadly serious, things can get. The only answer is to always do the best you can and set the example for others to follow.
I have served in the military and law enforcement my whole adulthood, and I am firmly convinced they are among the most rewarding professions, but they are also among the most frustrating, almost always due to higher-ups.
I am now 32, and decided a while ago that I would stop worrying about the stupid games that go on. I also decided that I would start acting like the 21 year old infantry Lance Corporal that I used to be. Since then, things have been a lot more fun. Surprisingly, I haven't gotten into any real trouble, either. I guess that is what judgement, which can only come from experience, does.
If anyone gets anything from this post, let it be this;
1. Set the example.
2. If you never fail your team-mates, you'll never fail.
Semper Fi,
Mark Johnson <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.51)
OK I now have a question concerning...Compasses - and you'all thought
I was going to ask about RC Cola and a Moon Pie!
ANYWAY - anyone tried the "new" compass that Timex is putting in
a watch, along with all the other "regular" stuff of course. Supposedly
uses the same technology that the newer in car comapsses use. Good, bad,
indifferent?? Thanks guys.
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:50:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.245.243.196)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:04:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.20.198)
AIRBORNE!!!! (at least used to be,thanks to Al)
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:05:55 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.119.19)
Jim M, I'm sorry you had that disappointment with your peers, but when the day comes when push comes to shove, you'll finally know who you can and can't depend on. As a professional soldier of only 22 years, I've learned that birds of a feather flock together. I don't know Gooch or Rick or many of the other service regulars here well at all, but when I met them (after the usual wary circling and figurative butt-sniffing) you can tell if a man is somebody you might be able to trust backing you up, based on first impressions. The whole military and combat arms team is BUILT on trust. The man on the other end of the radio or crypto, or sharing a bordering control line or support platform may be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine that you'll never meet, or know from Adam. You are trained to trust that the guy servicing your "Danger Close" call for fire, or bomb run, or delivering your beanie-weenies will be there, OR WILL BUST HIS ASS to get there because HE PROMISED and he doesn't want to let you down. Those that always deliver build the reputation as being the guys to call. Those that don't get known as the asset of last resort.
Since so many of our readers have minimal, (if any) military experience
nowadays, I'd like to share one of the things that had a profound influence
on my life as an 18-year old private.
"THE RANGER CREED
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high eprit de corps of my Ranger Battalion.
Acknowledging the fact a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that, as a Ranger, my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be. One hundred per cent and then some.
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, my neatness of dress and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word nor will I leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude and desire to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.
RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"
Pick your buds and back-ups carefully.
Kevin, the Navy issued Black Hills red box match ammo yesterday at the Atlantic Fleet Rifle Match yesterday, and I assume will also issue the same this coming week for the All-Navy. The label says 77 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match, US Navy Rifle Team. The bullets are NOT moly-coated. The Marines are issuing Black Hills red box 73 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match (Moly coated, but i don't know whose bullet they use).
Bravo, '82.
Sorry for hogging the space.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 13:42:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html
They ask some basic questions.
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net
or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, CLINTONFORNIA, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:41:54 (ZULU)
(your host address: 198.22.121.101)
Rich S. from Bawlimaw: I noticed what you're talking about on MTV.
Writing directly to them does no good at all-they are as red as
they
can get. Write to their advertisers, write to your local broadcaster,
your cable provider, or to your satellite service and request that
MTV is blocked or removed from your service.
'lito: It's Nehi and Moon Pies in the part of the Commonwealth that I'm from ;-)
Thanks,Al S.
Al S. <asimon@gj.net>
The Former Free State Of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:23:31
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.200)
you didn't mention the direction of motion, or the range. traveling
east to west- shooting south to north. ok.
you also failed to mention the velocity of your ammunition. so,
i assume, like the rest of your variables, it is something nice and even
like, say, 3000fps- muzzle and 100yds. downrange (...yeah i know :). so
we got a bullet on the range for .1 second. that gives the shooter and
the target time to move 8.8 ft. to the west. that's 105.6 MOA or 422-423
1/4 MOA clicks, to keep a dead-on hold that is. personally i'd rather use
a dot to find the width of the sections of paneling or molding on the side
of the train and use that to find a hold 8.8 feet to the left- then a right
hander would have to have a spotter to let them know if the subject ducked,
moved, or died of old-age.
i'm not gonna begin to try and deal with the 60mph crosswind you
created when you said that the shooter was travelling too. i think i'd
stop the jeep and let the sear drop sometime before the target enetered
my scope. is that cheating?
is this taking place in bonneville?
am i wearing fresh or threedaycrusty field undies?
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:46:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)
After having shot my Sendero for years I recently received a new HS Precision HTR.... Hailing from "The Last Frontier" and being an avid hunter my rifle puts in alot of time in the field in some miserable conditions... wet, cold, rain, snow...for days to weeks at a time. The only "cover" it receives is when "we" snuggle up next to each other in the tent and hope that tonight won't be the night Mr. Bear decides to come through the tent wall (Happened on the upper Kenai River on a fall duck hunt). After a rifle has been subjected to these conditions, what sort of maintainance should be performed? I'm comfortable w/ proper cleaning and protection of the bore, but what about things like the action? What should be removed and serviced? Should a 'smith do this?
Feel free to email me direct, and thanks for any guidance.
Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 16:05:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.244.184.230)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:16:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.32.221.130)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:34:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Nehi works for me!
Have your dealer order the M70 Sharpshooters direct from Winchester...
not through a distributer... they are between $2000, to $2200.
Call Wincheter, and ask to speak to Leslie in the custom dept...
she will send you information, and tell you what's available, or how long
you have to wait for what you want.
Dr. Kg...
If you and the target are moving together at the same speed, and
direction, the only correction you have to make is for wind, so don't ignore
it. But you need the BC and velocity to get the numbers.
The speed of the train, and jeep (if they are the same) make no
difference.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)
It's been a while! Lots of questions etc. being posted in the Emporium! Anyway - I know everyone here loves the Rem 700 action, and not to start up and old discussion, but does anyone else here think that there is better ( Win 70 maybe ).I would like some of your oppinions on the M70 action, especaily the pushfeed (or I've heard it called positive feed) action.
Thanks much...
Steve
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 21:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.242)
Actually I am not good at thinking up scenerios for "games" as seen by my lack of complete info for the question, rather I was kinda hoping that Rich or Gooch or someone would pick it up again. Ya know, post winners and give out prizes to whomever gets the monthly question right, ya know like a car or all expence paid trip to hawaii or a hat or somethin. :)
BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 23:22:57 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.238.71.164)
Semper Fi and Good luck!
Ken :)
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 02:19:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.10)
I hate to bring this out here but yes the SS deal did have its start with a small group of snipers out of Pendleton in the early 80's who were fans of the Nazi's. There used to be and may still be a pea brain by the name of John Metzger (I think I spelled it right) who ran a neo-nazi bunch out of Fallbrook. I think it was the White Arian Resistance (WAR). Anyway it was fans of this bunch that started using the lightening bolt SS in tatoos, patches etc. I know that Norm Chandler and others have tried to say that this is not the case but..sorry thats the real deal. I was stationed in 5th Marines at the time and have first hand knowledge of this. I dont think there were too many blatant racial statements connected with the use of the SS but you can't deny that it is the same symbol used by the nazi's. There actually used to be Marines who passed out neo-nazi propaganda at Tallega (Recon Bn) and elseware. I helped get one kicked out of Security Forces in 1990 or 1991.
I am an ardent beleiver that the Sniper Platoons should stay away from the nazi SS symbols, the skull symbols etc. Our fathers and grandfathers DIED to defeat the nazi's and any use of ANY symbol associated with the nazi's is an insult to the WWII soldiers who fought the nazi's.
Snipers should be the most disciplined and mature Marines in the Bn and the only symbol they need is the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. I had an email from a Scout-Sniper in 3rd Marines forwarded to me from a Marine in the USMC Scout-Sniper Association complaining that his Bn was was trying to take away thier "elite" status. What elite status? Snipers are not elite, they are dirty, nasty, ground pounders who are lucky to have been selected for the job. THey support unit commanders just like an Arty FO, FAC or Recon attachment does. ANy move towards elitism will only alienate the commanders and in the long run effect their viability in combat and sensitive "peace keeping" missions.
I fought elitism when I was an instructor at Quantico from 82-86 and I still do. A little known fact is that it is this same mentality that helped kill the Marine Raider Bn concept after WWII.
Whew! I'm off the soap box.
Out.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 03:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.163)
i hate to say it, oh Sage, but you're wrong.
Your assertion that so long as both vehicles are traveling (west) at the same speed, speed plays nno affect (save wind) on point of impact, only holds up if the muzzle of the rifle were touching the target. some of you extreme boys may get to play with 100yard barrels, but...
the westward momentum of the jeep carries with it the shooter the
rifle and the bullets in the rounds in the magazine. the momentum is tranfered
through the body of the shooter to the rifle, to anything inside it. the
rifle exerts an amount of force exactly equal to the force involved in
moving IT 60mph westward, on the inside of the right arm of the shooter.
the cartridges exert this same force on the right-hand rail of the magazine-
or chamber. the right-hand inside of the magazine and chamber transfer
the force to carry the cartridges westward at said velocity.
when the bullet is in the barrel it is traveling north at 3000fps,
and west at 88fps, giving it a trajectory greater than 90 degrees off the
plane of the shooter. the inside of the barrel exerts the force necessary
to take the bullet westward at 88fps. once a bullet leaves the muzzel,
however, it's on it's own. with the westerly component of its trajectory
removed (again, in the absense of wind resistance) the bullet will assume
a trajectory of exactly perpendicular to the plane of the shooter.
toss an apple core (or some other piece of bio-degradable refuse)
out the window of your car and it appears to arc backward. it does...a
little bit, that's the wind resistance- the rest is charged to the relative
observation of the driver. sans wind, the core will drop exactly at the
point along the road the car was at when the apple left the driver's hand.
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.103)
i hadn't looked through the Hot Tips in quite a while, and its really
starting to get some meat, but i didn't see anything on wind.
hate to bring it up in the roster but...
?
kg
kg <kg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:48:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.103)
I've just mounted a 3-12*50 S+B onto an SSG-P.
I wanted to mount the scope as low to the axis of the bore as possible.
The mounts I've used have left clear daylight between the objective and barrel -about half a millimetre or 3 sheets of paper.
Does anyone forsee any problems with such low mounting?
(My 2 niggling doubts are based on:
a. Barrel vibrations during firing -although I doubt that
barrel oscillation near the breech would be large enough to
touch the scope I don't know for sure. Can anyone quantify
this vibration?
b. Barrel warming. Again, at bolt action rates of fire
I cannot imagine that the barrel could expand enough to touch
the scope. Can anyone quantify barrel expansion due to
heating?)
Many thanks
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 09:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
195.92.198.79)
You are in a large aircraft, and traveling at Mach 2, (2200 fps) and shoot forward towards the cockpit, with a .45 auto... does:
A - You shoot the pilot and crash :(
B - The bullet fail to come out of the barrel because it's muzzle
velocity is only 800fps.
C - You shoot yourself, because the bullets comes back at you at
1400fps (2200fps minus 800 fps).
You're in the same aircraft, with a width of 100 feet, and you set up a target on the other side, so now you (and the target) are moving sideways at 2200 fps. You fire your .45 at the target, and:
A - Your bullet hits the target.
B - Your bullet turns sideways and exits the plane's tail at 2768 fps (the speed of the plane + the muzzle velocity x Cosine45degrees).
Your on the ground at a shooting range in Texas, and shooting at a 100yd target, with your .308 SWS rifle... due to the rotation of the earth under you, you and the target are traveling sideways at 600 (880 fps) miles per hour, and you:
A - Hit the target.
B - Miss the target by a factor equal to the time of flight (.1 sec) x the 880 fps... you miss the target by 88 feet.
You pick up the bench and target, and put them on a jeep, and train, and travel at 60 mph (88fps)... at the same time, there is a hurricane, and the wind is blowing in the same direction as you are traveling, so there is no felt wind... you:
A - Hit the target!
B - Miss the target by the amount the train traveled... +/- the speed of rotation of the earth (depending on whether the rotational factor is a positive number or negitive number) x the Cosine of the angle of the train tracks to the rotational direction of the earth, divided by the third order cube, of your grade in high school physics.
If you answered anything but "A" to any of these... you're in deep Doo Doo, and your highschool wants their diploma back, right away.
(spin drift was more fun than this...)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 10:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.50)
You are a sniper assigned to a large space station. This station takes the form of a large, hollow rotating drum, something like in Arthur Clark's _Rendevous with Rama_. For our purposes, we will say the drum is 1000 meters in diameter. The station is rotating in a fashion to where you are experiencing the equivilant of 1 g of pseudogravity. You are required to make a shot on the far side of the station directly opposite of you. The scope is zeroed to be direcly in line with the bore, that is, in the microgravity environment where you zeroed it the bullet strikes exactly 5cm below point of aim at all ranges. We will stipulate that "high" translates to "antispinwise" and "low" translates to "spinwise". Do you:
a) hold "high" owing to coriolis forces.
b) hold "low" to compensate for local pseudogravity.
c) hold dead on because all external forces cancel out.
d) cant know without knowing stations orientation to other gravity wells, ie, is the staion in low earth orbit, at L5 or other Lagrange point or in deep interplanetary space.
e) wheres the freakin' Tylenol?
Extra credit:
Calculate your exact POI and correct dope to put on the rifle, disregarding
any air circulation that the stations rotation may be inducing.
Bonus Question:
A sniper has died and gone to heaven. St. Peter has assigned him
to put a shot on the devil himself. The Devil is dancing at one edge of
the head of a pin. The angel/sniper's hide is on the other edge. Calculate
the shot.
:)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 11:34:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.213.119)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:32:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.116.202)
LAP THEM RINGS, you'll be a better person for it.
Scenerio:
You are a wannabee sniper, you haven't been trained by the Gooch Master yet. You are in the woods bear hunting. You are at the bottom of a 75 degree incline hill and spot a bear at 1100 yards with your super duper mildotted spotting scope. You slowly pull the rifle to shooting position so to not be detected by the mean old bear. At the same time you are pulling out your calculater, milldot master, slope doper and crystal ball. As you fumble through converting all the damn numbers and trig out all the poop, you here this strange sound coming down the hill. As you look throught the scope you notice the bear getting bigger and bigger. You butthole is now puckering. On ten power the bear now covers the entire scope. You still haven't got the correct poop yet. What is about to happen?
A) you hockey in your BDU's cause you aren't yet good enough to figure out all the poop.
B) you start cussing the day you discovered Sniper Country cause you used to be able to look through a duplex reticled scope and figure that the bear was in range and just shoot him.
C)You start yelling GOOCH, GOOCH, GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS!
D)Too late, the bear really looks good in your ghillie suit.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:41:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.190.53)
thanks
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.156)
Oops, sorry, just the one option.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
xx, MI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:48:23 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.89.136.103)
i have to admit i sorta skimmed through your reply, i'll re-read it when i get home from work.
but i think i can help you where your getting messed up on the train-jeep thing. one must remember that even though the two subjects are travelling at the same speed (and in this case the EXACT same speed) their motions are completely independant. in that .1 sec. when the bullet is between when the muzzle and the 100yard line the jeep and train have both travveled westward 8.8 ft. -independant of the bullet or each other. pick up a physics book, i guarantee you'll find i'm right. i understand that when you got your diploma Galileo was going through that whole "Inquisistion" thing, but that doesn't mean it can't still be revoked :)
i'm serious about the wind correction thing. somebody point me at some knowledge or i'm gonna get seriously logic-lagged on this thread.
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.89)
Back to my OP
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
"Sweet Home", ALABAMA, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 14:05:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.134.175)
Celt: almost, not quite. The reason we build underground shooting tunnels is to negate windage. If you're in an airplane firing from wing tip to wing tip, there is no windage (we assume the plane is pressurized), and no deflection occurs without wind. As the bullet leaves the barrel, mark all forces exerted on it. You'll just get the three (powder, aeriel friction and gravity), nothing pushing it to either side once the plane is in equilibrium. For fun equilibrium case: you've got a balloon in the car for the kid. It's old, and only floating 4" off the roof (not touching). From a dead stop, you accelerate hard (a Ford 351, no doubt!). The balloon goes which way?
I agree, spin drift was more fun, but could be that I'm burned out on rotational motion, vector analysis, classical mechanics, yadda yadda for now. But hey, it's beer money!
Gig 'em Patron "ringknocker" Dave! Thought I sensed a large African field mouse.
Found a source for Lupita Mk4 sunshades if anyone's interested....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com >
The Physics Depot, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 16:12:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.177)
Torsten,
Could you you direct me to Waffen Frankonia on the internet. Everything
I have come up with is in German language. Do they do mailorder? Or is
it even legal for bullets?
Oh, one more thing. Is it an alright idea to use the 1" reducer bushings on 30mm scope rings. Or depending on manufacturer is it ok?
thanks again,
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 20:19:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.100.170.107)