Hey, glad it worked out for you. I know the sick feeling the first time I saw that "Rust". Sweets has always worked for me. PS, dont leave it in the bore. Dry out the Sweets and run an oiled patch through the bore. Just be sure to dry out the oil before shooting.
Later,
Bill B <dc8plumber@aol.com>
ky, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:06:51 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.197.161)
A question for Rick at Bragg. We have recently been issued the PVS-10
and are trying to work the bugs out. It seems to hold it's zero and doesn't
have too much of a change between day and night operation (left 1.5 min
on mine). What's driving us crazy is the narrow field of focus on the ocular
lense. It seems that if the shooter is not perfectly aligned behind the
glass the image is terribly distorted. And what's with the yellow tint?
Have we failed to adjust the unit properly? Is there a fix for the problems?
I haven't had the opportunity to speak to anyone that has had a lot of
time behind the unit. Was hoping you might have some advise. Thanks.
SSG Maries/2-162 INF/ORARNG <kmaries@proaxis.com>
Oregon, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:28:15 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.163.142.12)
Next point, we are pointedly not answering "what can we do about IR" becasue this is an open forum that does not need to contribute to some butt lick using a technique learned here to screw with Mike or his buddies.
Have fun guys and hold hard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:34:26 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.212)
Good luck with the PVS-10s and let the chain of command know it is garbage. It is the only way you can fight back against this type of BS in the procurment system.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 02:44:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 152.163.207.212)
Greg: Stop Lurking - are you going to go shooting w/ Rob and I on
Sunday?
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 04:05:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.138.107)
I've never had any experience with U.S. made suppressors, but I have used a few different types down here in New Zealand as there are no restrictions on the ownership or use in this country.
You buy them over the counter the same as a 'scope or sling.
The most common types used on .22s are the Parker Hale screw on type and a locally produced PVC pipe model sold as the "Silent Kill".
The Parker Hale retails for about NZ$90 (approx US$45)and is very
quiet when used with sub-sonic ammo.
It requires the muzzle to be threaded.
The Silent Kill is a slip on type that is a little bulkier than the
P.H. but no alteration is required to the muzzle and it only adds 2 inches
the the length of the barrel.
Retails for about NZ$60 (US$30).
A small company by the name of Percy Engineering makes suppressors
for all calibres up to .308 and they are very good as well.
The one fitted to my .300 Whisper is superb!
(NZ$200-300)
He also does full-length ported barrel models for 10/22, Camp Carbine
etc.
I have also read good reports on ones made by Robbie Tiffin of Gunworks in Christchurch.
I don't know how you would go about importing them into the USA but it might be a lot cheaper and just as good as a US made one.
Suppressors are very common on .22s in this country for rabbits and possums, especially on 10 acre "lifestyle" blocks.
One target club in Auckland mandates their use on their range in the local community hall.
Some speciallist Police and Army units use MP5SDs but I don't know about any tactical use of suppressed .22s.
I will dig out the contact numbers of the makers mentioned and post them for all, but if anyone has any questions feel free to contact me.
Sniff, in the Land of the Long White Cloud.
Sniff <akh805@actrix.gen.nz>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 07:42:06 (ZULU) (your host address:
203.96.49.14)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 09:55:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.20.198)
Re: Hesse Arms
I'm fairly new to FALs, but the FAL Files is an excellent site with
a great forum for learning all things FAL. Most on the forum are not big
fans of Hesse. I have a personal Hesse customer service bitch, but I'll
not get into details. In short, I paid a 13% restocking fee because they
sent me garbage parts. Most FAL shooters do not think very highly of Hesse.
If you are willing to go to the $1000+ range, email me, and I'll get you
in touch with some good FAL builders. They're regulars at FAL Files. Mark
@ Arizona Response Systems, Rich @ Century Gun Work (NOT CAI), Mike @ MSC,
etc. Also, DSA builds brandy new FALs, but they have a waiting list.
Byron
Byron <bef122@psu.edu>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 13:12:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
128.118.19.11)
About the only application you will find is to be a cop and try to get on a SWAT team in a few years. I have never heard of a department that will take you "as is" and put you to work as a sniper. You'll have to get years of experience as a cop first.
Advice? Stay in, change MOS's to something you can use on the outside, get a degree while on active duty, THEN get out.
This is from a guy who spent 21 years in the military, USMC and Army sniper, CQB trained and all of that shit. Stay in.
SSG Maries, I think you can thank the Benning crew for the POS-10 (Piece of Shit-10). Am I right Rick?
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 17:23:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.160)
Rick: SORRY for the request for info on defeating IR. DOH! Just wasn't
thinking about "the audience". After talking "personally" with so many
of the guys here, I forget there are those that aren't "good guys". Sometimes
my curiousity over-rides my common sense. But does it have anything to
do with releasing 1000 fireflies from a 2L bottle all at once when you've
been spotted? ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 10,
2000 at 18:00:41 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Pablito raised a point at the time that I agreed with:
I was arguing that it was a bit foolhardy to just willy-nilly start experimenting with putting different substances on rounds, as the effect MAY be unpredictable and even dangerous to someone who doesn't know what he is doing. Pablito raised the point (as I recall) that while it may be true with some substances, that the ones he recommended were safe and that the audience at SC was experienced enough in reloading, etc. that they would not do something too foolish anyway (or words to that effect. Sorry Paul, I don't remember the exact quote, but I think it's fair to say that my misquote abides by the spirit, if not the words.)
Anyway, we ended the argument agreeing on that basic point. 'Nuff said.
These days I do not actively participate on this site, but I do get the chance to read it occasionally. While I still generally agree with Pablito's point about the relatively high reloading experience found on this site, certainly with him and some others, I am still DUMBFOUNDED to notice the all-too-often pleas for a "pet load," or postings of the same.
If you need to ASK for a good starting load for a given standard round and a common powder, like a .308 Win, 300 mag, 7mm, or whatever, then you shouldn't BE reloading. Put the tools down and back away from the bench.
1). This information is commonly published in about 25+ easily available reloading manuals. What? You don't USE reloading manuals? Then you shouldn't be reloading, no matter how experienced you think you are, someday something will bite you, maybe through no fault of your own. You might seriously hurt yourself or another simply because Joe Shmoe told you that he likes 50 compressed grains of Varget in his .308 and you didn't bother to look it up. Use the books, they keep getting reprinted for a reason.
2). Every rifle is different. Every individual rifle of a given model is different. Every individual rifle will shoot differently in different situations. If by "pet load" you are interested in accuracy (and why wouldn't you be?), then you will need to find your OWN accuracy load anyway. Maybe you'll find Pete's 44.0 grains of Varget to work best in your situation, maybe you won't, but just because it works best in Pete's smokepole, doesn't mean it will do anything special in yours.
3). "But I was only asking for advice so that I can test it in my rifle!" That may be true, but only a real stroke just takes a "pet load" from another person, and fires it off in their rifle without doing both of the following: a). Verifying it to be reasonable in a book or two, b). reducing it by 10% first, then working up to intended charge. Once you have verified a reduced load and started working up to find your individual sweet-spot, then it is 100% YOUR responsibility to know what is safe in your INDIVIDUAL rifle.
4). For the same reason, It does little good to post that 47.6gr of powder XXXX shoots sweet in your rifle, as it may not in another and any safe reloader will try it first at about 43gr anyway.
5). "But I already shoot 47gr of powder XXXX in my rifle, so why should I reduce to 43gr just to make sure that 47.6 is safe?" Well if you already shoot 47 grains in your rifle and know it is safe, then you probably don't have to reduce to know whether 47.6gr might be safe. But this raises another question: How did you arrive at 47gr? Did you find that charge in a book, on advice, or from testing? If you got it from a book or from advice, then you probably haven't done load development so you have no idea if 47gr is an optimum load in your rifle. And if you have no idea whether 47gr is optimum, why would you think that 47.6gr is optimum? Just because someone says so? On the other hand, if you settled on 47gr because your load testing showed it to be an optimum charge in your rifle, then 47.6gr is irrelevant for you anyway.
In the end, EVERY reloader needs to stop taking powder charge advice from others, safe or otherwise, and learn how to develop a proper load for himself, BASED ON, but not literally, load advice found in books or trusted friends. Only a fool blindly shoots any load handed to him. Only a bigger fool thinks that just because 44.0gr of Varget shoots well in xxx's rod, it will be optimum for his. 90% of the fun in reloading, is developing a good load. If all you want is someone else's work, then you deserve what you get.
Maybe a good thread to start here is the proper way to develop an accuracy load for your rifle. This hasn't been done in a while (and I promise I'll stay out of it this time).
Enough said, sorry for all the toes I am no doubt stepping on, but anyone who actually needs ask how much H4831 to use in a .30-06, probably needs the advice.
Semper Fi,
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 18:57:50 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
Thanks.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 19:18:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
206.251.30.4)
Undude/Mike
Mike Miller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 21:59:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 152.163.207.202)
I don't disagree with you... it was maybe the wording, that if you
see them, they see you.
I believe that if you see them... and you do your job well... they
won't see you.
But you can't try to overwhelm them with technogology... the more active you are, the more vulnerable you are.
I am NOT an advocate of overloading IR with flairs... if you try that, YOU WILL DIE!
Buy the way... I'm sending you some day-IR photos that will get your attention :))
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 22:35:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.24)
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net
or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, Commiefornia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:43:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 198.22.121.101)
Many of those individuals that I have specifically asked about load data were leery to disclose or discuss any specifics until many e-mails have been sent and they have become somewhat comfortable with the knowledge, experience and load developement techniques of the person asking for advice. In this litigous society that we now live in, it only makes sense to get to know the experience level and counsel accordingly.
NOW, how do I work up loads?
1) Decide which bullets I want to try to shoot.
2) Decide which powder(s) have a burning rate suitable for the round,
the bullet weight, and the specifics of the rifle in question. (barrel
length, bolt vs auto loader, etc.)
3) Choose the primer(s) that you will try.
4) Determin O.A.L. for the rifle if I am not restricted to magazine
length.
5) Prep the cases - trim to min, flash holes, primer pockets, etc..
6) Determine the starting loads (usually book max minus 10%-12%),
and what will initially be considered as maximum. This will be below the
books listed Max.
7) Load 5 rounds per load (this is done for all combinations of
bullets, powders, and primers chosen), increasing the load by half grain
until initial max is reached.
8) Shoot these loads over a crono for group at 100 yards.
9) Check for pressure signs. If the pressure sign (or lack of it)
indicates that you may do so safely, consider going past the hottest loading.
This is done only if the groups are getting smaller as the charge is increasing.
Go forward very carefully in .2 grain increments.
9a) If so indicated, test the "hotter" loads at 100 yards as above.
10) Pick the ones with that have both good groups AND consistent
velocities, and load fifty of each load.
11) Shoot these loads as 10 shot groups at 300 yards (over a cronograph),
never firing the same load (as 10 shot groups) consecutively. The groups
are spread out so that the conditions equal out.
12) Average the size of each loadings five 10 shot groups, as well
as the average velocity, extreme spread and standard deviation for each
loads fifty shot set.
13) Decide which load is best.
14) At this point, I shou;ld have decided on the load that I will
probably shoot for the life of that barel.
15) If not, I go out and but some Federal Gold Medal, or Black Hills.
16) If still no good, then I sell the BI*CH!
Flame On Gentlemen (and I use that term loosely) ;)
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
south werst, pennsylvnia, USA - Wednesday, May 10, 2000 at 23:49:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.159)
Are any of you familiar with the custom Remington 700’s that Texas Guns of San Antonio, TX turns out?
One of my customers received one in a trade and I did the paperwork for the transfer. I was expecting a standard Remington 700 VS LH .223. This little beauty started out that way; but what a change. Upon opening the box, I found a 700 VS LH with a 20” fluted bbl., deep target crown, and beautifully blued. The action was slick and the trigger broke at around 2 ½ lbs. I fell in love with the bloody thing and wanted to keep it! Immediately called the dealer who shipped it and found out who made it. Called them and found out that they do them in several different calibers. They are all cut down to 20” except the .300 Win. Mag., which they cut to 22”. They claim that most will shoot ½ minute @ 100 yds. all day long. I definitely “NEED” one of these. Please tell me that these are great rifles!!!!!!
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:22:58
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.73.76)
Winchester
winchester <primetimein69@yahoo.com>
Savoy, Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 00:23:31 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.253.56.166)
Shriver - Spent three years selling my talents to the highest bidder. Usually Saudi Arabia but had other takers, I'm such a whore. Gooch is right on the market of selling your talents. I have over 23 years of Spec Ops, and had worked with the Dept. of State folk, Secret Service folk, DIA, CIA, and a few other of the campbells soap folk. the only reason I could do it for three years was I had a steady retired pay check and my wife works. You also must have contacts with the above folk to get permission to do certain areas and deeds or they will revoke your rights as a citizen, yep you will become a stateless person and they do not kid around. I am now the proud double dipper that all congressmen fear and hate. It was just easier to keep doing this with the government. I accepted the fact that I will never be any richer than I am good looking. This is of course self explanitory to the guys who have seen my ugly face in person.
Marius - Gooch is right, believe the POS 10 comes from a collaboration of Aberdeen and Benning in the school of wouldn't it be cool if. Thus comes the answer to an unasked question.
Bravo - No problem it is easy to forget who all may come on board. I am just as guilty of yabbering away without thought of who else reads this forum. Scott used to keep me well in hand with gentle remeinders. Now I have to exercise self (shudder) discipline. I have even had some of my highers ask about my ramblings on this site before.
Kevin - Your points are never useless. You have made many a fine point during these threads.
Let me go to bed, students gone and tomorrow we shoot for ourselves!!! Joy! I tell the students that this is the second best job in the army! The first best job is this job without the students taking up our range time! ;-)
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 01:15:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.209)
Don't blame the Benning guys for the PVS 10. They kept turning in
reports that said the thing was trash. From day one they wanted it to go
away. After a year and a half of bitching they were told that it was too
late since the Army had bought around 5000 of them and it had a NSN.
Thomas <email@snipersparadise.com>
South tip of Texas, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 02:07:09 (ZULU)
(your host address: 63.81.112.36)
all the store could give me was that it was supposed to have been
made up for the military for shooting Nato matches. All the work was supposed
to have been done by military armories. They had had it for several years
to eventually put back together as a project gun as it was sort of in pieces
when they bought it but never got around to it and it just collected dust.
Looks like the original 788 stock was seriously modified and expertly glass
bedded by some one who knew their stuff.
Have heard of lots of conversions but have never seen or heard of
military conversions of 788s before.
finally got it back together after some serious cleaning and it
shoots really great.
if anyone has info, would be greatly appreciated.
LAWCOP <lawcop@voyager.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:26:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.153.185.105)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 03:33:12 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Howdy Dude!... I owe you an appology. I thought that one should be
able to discuss loading tecniques on this site, that went past the page
2 beginers warnings in the loading manuals... but I was wrong.
Every time I brought up something past the basics, I got tons of
flack about all the stuff you "can't" do 'cuz your gun will blow up...
So I stopped talkin about those things... I went down in de-feet,
from the "chicken littles" on this site... however, you wanna load some
.308 "H.E.A.T.... drop me an e-mail ;)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 08:45:34 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.133)
A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already
peteR <PNGREIFF@aol.com>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:39:34 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.24)
Bill - That would be my luck as well. There is always way to much fire power on the wrong end of where ever I try to do my thing!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:47:17 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.194)
Andre with the ',
A Grand (re-)entrance, and you're already "sniping" with the best
of them. A GREAT START friend!
Ofta handloading immolation Nirvanaland with Lito, UnDude, Bill R,
Pat Murphy, Scott, Tony Y, Bravo, danr, Boltster, and the rest of the helpful
ones.
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, By-Gawd, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 10:49:36 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.200.24)
I stand by what I said, but I'll clarify my intent: THis site SHOULD be a good source of info on the TECHNIQUES of handloading, including such topics as Load Develpment, Case Prep, Tools of the Trade, Bullet Selection, etc. Even basic how-to would be great for the less experienced crowd, or those who want to start (which I would recommend to all of you on this site who don't already reload you own).
This idea has nothing to do with fear of litigation or that Pete's pet load of 200gr of Varget, smashed in an hydrolic press, then shoved into a .308 case, along with a cherry bomb, will harm anybody. My position is based 100% on the idea that a reloader, any reloader, takes the responsibility upon himself for all that he doesand also must work up his own rifle's accuracy load. There are plenty of readily available tables for the handloader to get load data, or confirm load data received from others. If someone tells me to load up 49gr of some powder I've never used before, then I'd be a moron if I didn't a). consider the source carefully, b). try to confirm the reasonableness of the load somewhere "official."
Beyond the personal safety issue is the basic one that YOUR load will probably NOT be my load (for optimum accuracy). If one is faced with the task of reducing a stated charge and working up an accuracy load anyway, then what do you need advice from someone you don't even know for?
Hey, I'm all for a discussion of various techniques (sadly lacking sometimes here in favor of unsavory animal "husbandry"), but anyone who actually needs to ask what a good .30-06 load might be, then is also willing to fire off that load without ever confirming that it's reasonable in their rifle, deserves what he gets. This information is NOT top secret. You can go into any gun store and find oodles of load data for all of you favorite powders. I'm not trying to stifle anything, just to say that load data (re: powder charge) is an individual thing that will be modified anyway, so what's the point in even asking?
Steve:
While I don't think most people here would do it, I think there are plenty of people who would just take a load I spout off and fire it off without checking. I've seen it many times. I'm glad you would not. I saw a guy at a range last year blow primer after primer in a rifle firing way too hot, who was dumbfounded because his buddy shoots this load all the time in his rifle without ill effect. People do this. Lots of smart people own guns, but lots of morons do also. Explaining to someone how to do proper case prep is a lot more helpful to newbie and expert alike, than the harm that can come because some stroke won't read a charge table.
Thanks for you best wishes Mike. I still haven't tried one of those mercury reducers, but I've been eyeing my rifle but lately, so who knows. I may have to get a sling order off to you one of these days.
Howdy Pete. Or was it two cherry bombs?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 11:58:32 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
"my greatest fear is failing my team-mates"
Last night, I was witness to a "brother in need" scenario and found nearly half my team-mates paralyzed by an overwhelming need to cover their own "arse" . This was not a particularly apocalyptic crisis, and the half that didn't have a philosophical crisis saved the day...
I am left wondering... how is it that failing your team (buying sub-standard
gear, presidents that lie, standing by while a mate dies because your too
scared to act).... how has this become even remotely acceptable? When did
personal accountability cease to be a norm?
Jim MItchell <james_mitchell@merck.com>
NJ, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 12:54:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
12.20.190.1)
I think its time for the DOD to force the sevices to adopt the same sniper rifle systems. WIth the USMC building their M40's with Unertl and the Simrad, the Army with the M24 w/Leupold/POS-10 and the Navy with thier Macmillans (or whatever they have this week) its getting pretty hairy.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:15:49 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.158)
Andre'...
I still don't think this is a site for beginners handloading...
there is so much "how to trim your cases", "how to work up a load", and
"how to set-up your first set of dies" information around, that it would
bog this site to a stop, if we went there.
There has to be some expected level of function on a site like this, or all the discourse will go to ground.
If we discuss "Go bags" and Alice kits, we can't start out with "How
to pick out a canteen at your local Wal-Marts"... it has to ba assumed
that people that are attracted to this site, have achieved a mid or higher
level of functioning in shooting, and outdoor skills, and if we keep going
back to entry level on every topic, the very people that you want the answers
from, will leave and go elsewhere.
This was discussed about about 8 weeks ago... started by a timely
thread started be UnDude, which made the same point.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:26:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.72)
However, beginners DO exist on this site (evidenced by questions like "What's a good load for a .308 round for my new rifle?"). My feeling is simply that the first lesson that a beginner should learn is that everybody's loads are their own (for accuracy, not proprietary, reasons) and that the info that they seek is found in numerous books.
If someone wants to ask a question about case trimming, or something,
that's their business, but they shouldn't be asking about THAT, if they
can't even find a good load for a common round on their own. Does that
make sense?
André <akpeters@isd.net>
Mpls, MN, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 13:59:47 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.215.216.198)
I thought that 44.0 grains of VARGET was a mid range load according to Hodgdons? Has that changed?
Exceptional accuracy and the ability to work at any temp range was what I, and a number of "trade" individuals who wish to remain out of the limelite, derived through a bit of scientific testing.
As far as I know, you were the first to post a totally unacceptable and despicably unsafe load 50.0 grains of VARGET in a .308 (EVEN IF IN JEST DUDE......) THATS SCARY in todays read only halfway society.
If it was not for T&E and publishing, both data here and elsewhere, we would all still be using the somewhat sterile "target" loads used for three or four decades in bullseye competition.
Time to "evolve" and get back to using hmmmmmm 43.5 grains of Varget and firing five shots to test a load ..........
;-)
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:47:30 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.161)
Brent
Brent <koldbore@hotmail.com>
Shreveport, Louisiana, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 14:53:35 (ZULU)
(your host address: 216.79.207.47)
Pete,
Yes, I still eat Varget on my Bran every morning, after "Blending"
as per lito's instructions, and would be trying to shoot it in the 6.5x284
except that the new "Short Cut" 4831 is a slower version of Varget with
the same qualities!!!
Pat <mrbullet@hotmail.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.41.18.130)
You can paint the scope body, obviously not the lenses and turret caps on the scope.
1)Remove and lightly spray da caps exterior after masking the innards.
2) Leave them intact and cover with burlap, pantyhose, removable
bow tape, etc. etc.
anybody else???
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:33:49 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.162)
Jeeesus! if you need a load buy a can of Varget, the load max's are
on the side just like calories on a Pepsi Can. You ain't gonna blow up
yore gun. More likely you'll smoke up your safety glasses (which I hope
you're wearing or blow your ear drums when you fail to put on your protectors).
Ackley tried to blow up guns and couldn't put enough powder in a case to
do it. A piece of mud in a 12 gauge barrel or a stuck plastic case half
way up the barrel is far more likely to blow your gun and kill you than
the worst reload you ever heard off.
I've seen guys blow a primer and almost faint, I've even stuck a
bolt so damn tight I had to send it in to get it out but nothing is likely
to blow, just watch your eyes and be darn careful around semi autos and
you'll live as long as me. The most common reload problem I know is with
a well known loading Manual that has .270 win and .270 weatherby printed
in such a way that I know of several people who have loaded the weatherby
in the .270. Big smoke blown primers and stuck bolts but a good bolt gun
will hold. Pat; expierenced what many of us have with custom chambers.
Smith's use the smallest chambers assuming you want some kind of accuracy
from out of the box factory
ammo. This is a futile gesture in that most of the good loads are
fire formed anyhow. Another problem is with the difference between factory
and military loads. The cases are different in their metal and size, But
you won't blow a good gun with it.
I saw a double charge of 231 and many times bullseye in .45 colts
blow the clip out the bottom but some revolvers will blow the frame apart
and rupture the chambers. The chances you gonna screw up on the
scale readings or the reading the books is your biggest enemy.
Be sure you read your powder scale correctly!
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:36:15 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
I am not getting into the reloading discussion.
Everything PD's and the Military buy has to do with Politics
Looking forward to seeing some of you in June.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 15:47:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.200.22)
I can emphasize with both of you, been there situationally - didn't like it one F#$%^ing bit. Specially when your "backup" is peeking round the corner half a block away, if they get the nerve to show up.
Its far worse as you know, when you have to go in and defuse, or attempt to gain control a thing gone REAL bad, or the fans on frappe'
Don't let Un-Dude fool you guys, for a Bionic Man he's in awful good shape. Just like my pal the Depity ;-)
Stay Safe!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:35:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 205.188.193.57)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 16:52:48
(ZULU) (your host address: 208.32.221.103)
And thanks for the recognition PeteR, beginning to feel like a "regular"
:-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Thursday, May 11,
2000 at 17:09:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Patron Dave, forgot to ask, you an Ag, or just know about Rudder's
Rangers? On the list of accomplishments, you might wanna add the F-15 Strike
Eagle (if what I was told was true).
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
here we go again in the, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:15:46 (ZULU)
(your host address: 12.9.223.170)
OPSEC: I don't think about it much these days - But I am wholehearted agreement with Rick (I think I already mentioned it). When you are face to face with buddies, you can shoot the shit and have a open forum. But with this you never know who someone is - and you never know who's lurking. There are alot of things that civvies don't need to know. I think we'd all feel pretty shitty if some greasy turd learned something valuable off here, to drop some LE. Bad enough some grow ops are getting hi-tech they don't need help.
Dave: MH says Canuks can't go to SOTIC? Don't trust us? - I am wondering if Gene Econ's liberation comments have some truth. Dropped some HSM and am trying to see if we can offcially use it.
Anyway Shooting question here - anyone got any ideas on cleaning up my HK91 trigger w/o a PSG1 system.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 17:30:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.129.51)
If you're just a joe six-pack, and not even a wannabee, then why are disturbed because some sensitive information on defeating police or military equipment, is not made available to you? Are you looking for cool cocktail party chatter?
Remember that it's not just a dozen folks that read this site... there are some 1000 to 2000 folks a day that drop by are read this stuff, and not all of them come with a pedigree.
Why would you need to know how to defeat Day-IR... and how would the person who gave out that information feel, if they read the papers, that those same techniques used in a crime?
There is no closed club here... you wanna be a regular, just post on a regular basis.
And about RC cola, Moon pies, and sheep... you better lighten up dude!! :))
Pablito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 19:52:59 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.29)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 21:55:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.116.83)
Kevin, of that Great Country to our north known the world over as
Canada - SOTIC was restricted to US forces only. HOWEVER, just last year
we had two seperate occasions in which snipers from Germany attended our
course. This may mean a lessening of the restrictions, which would be fine
by me, or a goof in protocol. I would vote for the goof, because to lessen
the restrictions usually involves the stars on high. None of us on the
commitee have heard of any changes and were surprised by the students.
Heck, check with the US Army LNO in your area and see what can be done.
I am assuming that you are still active military with a reason to attend.
:)
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:47:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.188)
Please don't take it personally if others on this forum prefer to avoid certain topics.
I am also not military or LE. Most (95%+) of my customers are. I'm an old woodchuck and deer hunter who loves precision shot placement, ear-to-ear on a chuck at 250 yds., or heart or spine shot on a deer. I like slinging large bullets at targets 1000 yds. away, too. A love of rifles and the skills involved in using them is what brings me here, so I think that we are not too far apart in this.
Point is, many of my customers want to remain somewhat anonymous for a variety of reasons, the possibility of retaliation towards themselves or their loved ones by bad guys being a major (and valid) concern. " Blown cover" is another issue, same reason that some of the reluctant "stars" of network TV programs appear in shadows or with their faces blurred. Some of the people that I deal with on this site have only revealed their true line of work to me after over a year of dealing with me, and after having personally met me and getting to know me. It's not cloak-and-dagger stuff, just plain old self-preservation. I cannot help but respect their wishes.
Same goes for discussion of certain topics that could negatively impact the day-to-day performance of their jobs, jobs in which they daily put their lives on the line. I do not feel that everyone in the US (or the world, within the context of Internet postings) has the need or the right to know everything. Consequently, I believe that certain topics of discussion may (and should) be curtailed on this or any other responsible site.
Don't take offense at someone saying, "I don't think that this is an appropriate topic for this forum, because the information could get a cop or soldier killed if it became widespread knowledge."
Please continue to post, ask questions, and contribute your knowledge to the site. Everyone xere has learned something from someone else.
Best Regards from Just Anorther Shooter.
Bruce N. Robinson <bnrobins@flash.net>
Los Lunas, NM On Fire, USA - Thursday, May 11, 2000 at 22:53:38 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.30.122.48)
Mr. Mussack: Sir, if you don't prefer sheep, may I suggest a truly Canadain animal? Try beaver. We like it so much up here, we even put it on our 5 cent coins! Sure, the furry little buggers stink like hell. But once you get by the smell, man, you got it licked!
OPSEC: Unfortunately, this is just reality. I guess if we civies want to know all the "good stuff", we better be prepared to haul ass down to our recruiting offices and sign up.
Rick B: Once we pass boot camp, when do we get to know the pass word and the secret hand shake? I supopose in Special Forces, they would have a whole book of those! Just kidding, just kidding.
By the way, anyone know the best load for...oops! Sorry.
Jeff Babineau <j.babineau@ns.sympatico.ca>
Truro, N.S., Canada - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:14:34 (ZULU) (your
host address: 142.177.54.49)
As a member of the Virginia Army National Guard and a sniper candidate
here in a unit in the Northern Virginia area, I am attempting to learn
all that I can about sniper training. My question is, are there different
classifications of military snipers? Someone recently asked me if I was
a "Class II" sniper, and I quite honestly didn't know how to respond, other
than to say that I was not yet a sniper, but working towards that goal.
Can you tell me anything about the different sniper classifications, if
any?
I am curious to know, is all. Thanks in advance for any information
you might be able to provide me! I think your website is fantastically
laid out with good information, and most importantly, a wonderful goal
for those who are serious and mature military and police snipers and aspirants.
Sincerely,
Warren Gregory
Warren Gregory <kenshaku@pressroom.com
>
Alexandria , Virginia , USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 00:22:29 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.249.182.208)
What adjustment or adjustments would you make to your scope to hit a target at 100 yrds if the target lets say is in a train moving 60mph and you are in a smooth riding jeep running parrallel with the train at the same speed. Assuming 1/4 moa clicks and 0 wind .
I remember a year or two ago, Marius I think, used to post questions like this in the form of a game. A lot of fun thinking about this stuff.
Hey Sarge you still shooting Savages?
BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:19:06 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.238.71.233)
Drop the chalupa? Hand me a moon pie! I'll pass on the sheep.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with unconstitutional laws, formerly known as
the, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:31:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.208)
To answer your question about ring lapping... maybe!
The Badger rings are made better than any other ring you can buy,
that’s probably why you bought them.
The Base is made the same exacting standards also.
HOWEVER the good people at Remington might not be quite as picky
as the guy at Badger Ord.
Its like building a house if the foundation is bad, the walls are
not perfect and the roof will suffer too!
If it requires lapping it won’t be much.
Remember install the base after the action is torqued in to the
stock this will pull some of the twist and warp out of the action and minimizes
effect on the mount.
Martin Bordson
Badger Ordnance
Marty <badgerord@aol.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 01:34:47 (ZULU) (your host address: 152.163.213.186)
I now am working on another military style fun shoot for the fall. We have 100 acres with a dry creek bed running thru it. We want to develope some sort of event where we gear up in full battle dress and fire from several positions. Some ideas were to be under fire from paint ball shooters, fire on autos, at targets etc.
Any ideas out there that we could work into our shoot? Anyone is
welcome to attend and I will post a date before long.
Mark 303-377-0034
Mark Mason <whacemason@usa.net>
aurora, co, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:09:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 209.245.2.199)
Mr Bordson, welcome!
Mr Mussack, welcome!
R-C COLAS! MOONPIES! sSSHHHEEEEP! Secret Handshakes and decoder rings
(w/ mildot capability no less!)Damn, what did I miss in eight Duty Roster
deprived hours?
Al O,
I'll let you deal with mrs peteR, PERSONALLY, for that last pix
of the Chalupa, terrified to wits end by,
Retch!
Ugh!
Shudder!
GASP!
That Thing.................
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 02:37:14 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.49)
Kevin Mussack is alright. Know him personally. Him and his son attended a course at SMTC during my tenure there. Other than Kevins affinity for the local four legged fair he is good to go:-)
Out here.
Gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:20:45 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.178)
I don't know the exact circumstances of the incident you were involved
in, but figure it was probably law enforcement related.
I have seen a few people freeze up under pressure, but generally
have been lucky with the guys who work my precinct, because even though
we have a few boneheads, we never have to worry about getting help from
anyone. Officers on other precincts are not always so lucky.
I think Mike Miller in particular hit upon some good points. One thing in particular was, as he put it, the Me Me Me syndrome. Another thing I have noticed is the school of thought that tries to manipulate image, often by using ambiguous terms that try to make everything seem bright and rosy. Everyone can see right through that. Unfortunately, many higher ups fail to realize that if the function of a unit is squared away, the image will reflect that. The same is true for individuals.
But what to do? No matter how hard we try, there will always be some idiots who fail to realize how serious, sometimes deadly serious, things can get. The only answer is to always do the best you can and set the example for others to follow.
I have served in the military and law enforcement my whole adulthood, and I am firmly convinced they are among the most rewarding professions, but they are also among the most frustrating, almost always due to higher-ups.
I am now 32, and decided a while ago that I would stop worrying about the stupid games that go on. I also decided that I would start acting like the 21 year old infantry Lance Corporal that I used to be. Since then, things have been a lot more fun. Surprisingly, I haven't gotten into any real trouble, either. I guess that is what judgement, which can only come from experience, does.
If anyone gets anything from this post, let it be this;
1. Set the example.
2. If you never fail your team-mates, you'll never fail.
Semper Fi,
Mark Johnson <markj12pct@aol.com>
Ohio, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:42:58 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.188.198.51)
OK I now have a question concerning...Compasses - and you'all thought
I was going to ask about RC Cola and a Moon Pie!
ANYWAY - anyone tried the "new" compass that Timex is putting in
a watch, along with all the other "regular" stuff of course. Supposedly
uses the same technology that the newer in car comapsses use. Good, bad,
indifferent?? Thanks guys.
Sarge
Sarge <garryrn@dfn.com>
Area 51, NM, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 03:50:42 (ZULU) (your host
address: 206.245.243.196)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:04:22 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.20.198)
AIRBORNE!!!! (at least used to be,thanks to Al)
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 10:05:55 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.119.19)
Jim M, I'm sorry you had that disappointment with your peers, but when the day comes when push comes to shove, you'll finally know who you can and can't depend on. As a professional soldier of only 22 years, I've learned that birds of a feather flock together. I don't know Gooch or Rick or many of the other service regulars here well at all, but when I met them (after the usual wary circling and figurative butt-sniffing) you can tell if a man is somebody you might be able to trust backing you up, based on first impressions. The whole military and combat arms team is BUILT on trust. The man on the other end of the radio or crypto, or sharing a bordering control line or support platform may be a soldier, sailor, airman, or marine that you'll never meet, or know from Adam. You are trained to trust that the guy servicing your "Danger Close" call for fire, or bomb run, or delivering your beanie-weenies will be there, OR WILL BUST HIS ASS to get there because HE PROMISED and he doesn't want to let you down. Those that always deliver build the reputation as being the guys to call. Those that don't get known as the asset of last resort.
Since so many of our readers have minimal, (if any) military experience
nowadays, I'd like to share one of the things that had a profound influence
on my life as an 18-year old private.
"THE RANGER CREED
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high eprit de corps of my Ranger Battalion.
Acknowledging the fact a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that, as a Ranger, my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be. One hundred per cent and then some.
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, my neatness of dress and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word nor will I leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude and desire to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.
RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"
Pick your buds and back-ups carefully.
Kevin, the Navy issued Black Hills red box match ammo yesterday at the Atlantic Fleet Rifle Match yesterday, and I assume will also issue the same this coming week for the All-Navy. The label says 77 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match, US Navy Rifle Team. The bullets are NOT moly-coated. The Marines are issuing Black Hills red box 73 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail Match (Moly coated, but i don't know whose bullet they use).
Bravo, '82.
Sorry for hogging the space.
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 13:42:35 (ZULU) (your host address: 24.163.112.159)
http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html
They ask some basic questions.
Scott Hannah <hannah@slip.net
or hannahscott@netscape.net>
Los Gatos, CLINTONFORNIA, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 14:41:54 (ZULU)
(your host address: 198.22.121.101)
Rich S. from Bawlimaw: I noticed what you're talking about on MTV.
Writing directly to them does no good at all-they are as red as
they
can get. Write to their advertisers, write to your local broadcaster,
your cable provider, or to your satellite service and request that
MTV is blocked or removed from your service.
'lito: It's Nehi and Moon Pies in the part of the Commonwealth that I'm from ;-)
Thanks,Al S.
Al S. <asimon@gj.net>
The Former Free State Of, Colorado, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:23:31
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.169.65.200)
you didn't mention the direction of motion, or the range. traveling
east to west- shooting south to north. ok.
you also failed to mention the velocity of your ammunition. so,
i assume, like the rest of your variables, it is something nice and even
like, say, 3000fps- muzzle and 100yds. downrange (...yeah i know :). so
we got a bullet on the range for .1 second. that gives the shooter and
the target time to move 8.8 ft. to the west. that's 105.6 MOA or 422-423
1/4 MOA clicks, to keep a dead-on hold that is. personally i'd rather use
a dot to find the width of the sections of paneling or molding on the side
of the train and use that to find a hold 8.8 feet to the left- then a right
hander would have to have a spotter to let them know if the subject ducked,
moved, or died of old-age.
i'm not gonna begin to try and deal with the 60mph crosswind you
created when you said that the shooter was travelling too. i think i'd
stop the jeep and let the sear drop sometime before the target enetered
my scope. is that cheating?
is this taking place in bonneville?
am i wearing fresh or threedaycrusty field undies?
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:30:21 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 15:46:37 (ZULU) (your host address: 205.212.118.87)
After having shot my Sendero for years I recently received a new HS Precision HTR.... Hailing from "The Last Frontier" and being an avid hunter my rifle puts in alot of time in the field in some miserable conditions... wet, cold, rain, snow...for days to weeks at a time. The only "cover" it receives is when "we" snuggle up next to each other in the tent and hope that tonight won't be the night Mr. Bear decides to come through the tent wall (Happened on the upper Kenai River on a fall duck hunt). After a rifle has been subjected to these conditions, what sort of maintainance should be performed? I'm comfortable w/ proper cleaning and protection of the bore, but what about things like the action? What should be removed and serviced? Should a 'smith do this?
Feel free to email me direct, and thanks for any guidance.
Mat
Mat Cannava <nanook@voyager.net>
Soldotna, Alaska, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 16:05:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 206.244.184.230)
Kevin R. Mussack <kmussack@aol.com>
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:16:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 208.32.221.130)
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:34:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
Nehi works for me!
Have your dealer order the M70 Sharpshooters direct from Winchester...
not through a distributer... they are between $2000, to $2200.
Call Wincheter, and ask to speak to Leslie in the custom dept...
she will send you information, and tell you what's available, or how long
you have to wait for what you want.
Dr. Kg...
If you and the target are moving together at the same speed, and
direction, the only correction you have to make is for wind, so don't ignore
it. But you need the BC and velocity to get the numbers.
The speed of the train, and jeep (if they are the same) make no
difference.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 18:45:39 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.38)
It's been a while! Lots of questions etc. being posted in the Emporium! Anyway - I know everyone here loves the Rem 700 action, and not to start up and old discussion, but does anyone else here think that there is better ( Win 70 maybe ).I would like some of your oppinions on the M70 action, especaily the pushfeed (or I've heard it called positive feed) action.
Thanks much...
Steve
Steve <reptech@televar.com>
USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 21:13:32 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.8.144.242)
Actually I am not good at thinking up scenerios for "games" as seen by my lack of complete info for the question, rather I was kinda hoping that Rich or Gooch or someone would pick it up again. Ya know, post winners and give out prizes to whomever gets the monthly question right, ya know like a car or all expence paid trip to hawaii or a hat or somethin. :)
BillM
BillM <cipher34@hotmail.com>
Central, Ny, USA - Friday, May 12, 2000 at 23:22:57 (ZULU) (your host
address: 216.238.71.164)
Semper Fi and Good luck!
Ken :)
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 02:19:56 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.10)
I hate to bring this out here but yes the SS deal did have its start with a small group of snipers out of Pendleton in the early 80's who were fans of the Nazi's. There used to be and may still be a pea brain by the name of John Metzger (I think I spelled it right) who ran a neo-nazi bunch out of Fallbrook. I think it was the White Arian Resistance (WAR). Anyway it was fans of this bunch that started using the lightening bolt SS in tatoos, patches etc. I know that Norm Chandler and others have tried to say that this is not the case but..sorry thats the real deal. I was stationed in 5th Marines at the time and have first hand knowledge of this. I dont think there were too many blatant racial statements connected with the use of the SS but you can't deny that it is the same symbol used by the nazi's. There actually used to be Marines who passed out neo-nazi propaganda at Tallega (Recon Bn) and elseware. I helped get one kicked out of Security Forces in 1990 or 1991.
I am an ardent beleiver that the Sniper Platoons should stay away from the nazi SS symbols, the skull symbols etc. Our fathers and grandfathers DIED to defeat the nazi's and any use of ANY symbol associated with the nazi's is an insult to the WWII soldiers who fought the nazi's.
Snipers should be the most disciplined and mature Marines in the Bn and the only symbol they need is the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. I had an email from a Scout-Sniper in 3rd Marines forwarded to me from a Marine in the USMC Scout-Sniper Association complaining that his Bn was was trying to take away thier "elite" status. What elite status? Snipers are not elite, they are dirty, nasty, ground pounders who are lucky to have been selected for the job. THey support unit commanders just like an Arty FO, FAC or Recon attachment does. ANy move towards elitism will only alienate the commanders and in the long run effect their viability in combat and sensitive "peace keeping" missions.
I fought elitism when I was an instructor at Quantico from 82-86 and I still do. A little known fact is that it is this same mentality that helped kill the Marine Raider Bn concept after WWII.
Whew! I'm off the soap box.
Out.
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 03:37:29 (ZULU) (your host address:
129.71.17.163)
i hate to say it, oh Sage, but you're wrong.
Your assertion that so long as both vehicles are traveling (west) at the same speed, speed plays nno affect (save wind) on point of impact, only holds up if the muzzle of the rifle were touching the target. some of you extreme boys may get to play with 100yard barrels, but...
the westward momentum of the jeep carries with it the shooter the
rifle and the bullets in the rounds in the magazine. the momentum is tranfered
through the body of the shooter to the rifle, to anything inside it. the
rifle exerts an amount of force exactly equal to the force involved in
moving IT 60mph westward, on the inside of the right arm of the shooter.
the cartridges exert this same force on the right-hand rail of the magazine-
or chamber. the right-hand inside of the magazine and chamber transfer
the force to carry the cartridges westward at said velocity.
when the bullet is in the barrel it is traveling north at 3000fps,
and west at 88fps, giving it a trajectory greater than 90 degrees off the
plane of the shooter. the inside of the barrel exerts the force necessary
to take the bullet westward at 88fps. once a bullet leaves the muzzel,
however, it's on it's own. with the westerly component of its trajectory
removed (again, in the absense of wind resistance) the bullet will assume
a trajectory of exactly perpendicular to the plane of the shooter.
toss an apple core (or some other piece of bio-degradable refuse)
out the window of your car and it appears to arc backward. it does...a
little bit, that's the wind resistance- the rest is charged to the relative
observation of the driver. sans wind, the core will drop exactly at the
point along the road the car was at when the apple left the driver's hand.
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:36:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.103)
i hadn't looked through the Hot Tips in quite a while, and its really
starting to get some meat, but i didn't see anything on wind.
hate to bring it up in the roster but...
?
kg
kg <kg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 04:48:27 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.103)
I've just mounted a 3-12*50 S+B onto an SSG-P.
I wanted to mount the scope as low to the axis of the bore as possible.
The mounts I've used have left clear daylight between the objective and barrel -about half a millimetre or 3 sheets of paper.
Does anyone forsee any problems with such low mounting?
(My 2 niggling doubts are based on:
a. Barrel vibrations during firing -although I doubt that
barrel oscillation near the breech would be large enough to
touch the scope I don't know for sure. Can anyone quantify
this vibration?
b. Barrel warming. Again, at bolt action rates of fire
I cannot imagine that the barrel could expand enough to touch
the scope. Can anyone quantify barrel expansion due to
heating?)
Many thanks
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 09:59:18 (ZULU) (your host address:
195.92.198.79)
You are in a large aircraft, and traveling at Mach 2, (2200 fps) and shoot forward towards the cockpit, with a .45 auto... does:
A - You shoot the pilot and crash :(
B - The bullet fail to come out of the barrel because it's muzzle
velocity is only 800fps.
C - You shoot yourself, because the bullets comes back at you at
1400fps (2200fps minus 800 fps).
You're in the same aircraft, with a width of 100 feet, and you set up a target on the other side, so now you (and the target) are moving sideways at 2200 fps. You fire your .45 at the target, and:
A - Your bullet hits the target.
B - Your bullet turns sideways and exits the plane's tail at 2768 fps (the speed of the plane + the muzzle velocity x Cosine45degrees).
Your on the ground at a shooting range in Texas, and shooting at a 100yd target, with your .308 SWS rifle... due to the rotation of the earth under you, you and the target are traveling sideways at 600 (880 fps) miles per hour, and you:
A - Hit the target.
B - Miss the target by a factor equal to the time of flight (.1 sec) x the 880 fps... you miss the target by 88 feet.
You pick up the bench and target, and put them on a jeep, and train, and travel at 60 mph (88fps)... at the same time, there is a hurricane, and the wind is blowing in the same direction as you are traveling, so there is no felt wind... you:
A - Hit the target!
B - Miss the target by the amount the train traveled... +/- the speed of rotation of the earth (depending on whether the rotational factor is a positive number or negitive number) x the Cosine of the angle of the train tracks to the rotational direction of the earth, divided by the third order cube, of your grade in high school physics.
If you answered anything but "A" to any of these... you're in deep Doo Doo, and your highschool wants their diploma back, right away.
(spin drift was more fun than this...)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 10:49:28 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.50)
You are a sniper assigned to a large space station. This station takes the form of a large, hollow rotating drum, something like in Arthur Clark's _Rendevous with Rama_. For our purposes, we will say the drum is 1000 meters in diameter. The station is rotating in a fashion to where you are experiencing the equivilant of 1 g of pseudogravity. You are required to make a shot on the far side of the station directly opposite of you. The scope is zeroed to be direcly in line with the bore, that is, in the microgravity environment where you zeroed it the bullet strikes exactly 5cm below point of aim at all ranges. We will stipulate that "high" translates to "antispinwise" and "low" translates to "spinwise". Do you:
a) hold "high" owing to coriolis forces.
b) hold "low" to compensate for local pseudogravity.
c) hold dead on because all external forces cancel out.
d) cant know without knowing stations orientation to other gravity wells, ie, is the staion in low earth orbit, at L5 or other Lagrange point or in deep interplanetary space.
e) wheres the freakin' Tylenol?
Extra credit:
Calculate your exact POI and correct dope to put on the rifle, disregarding
any air circulation that the stations rotation may be inducing.
Bonus Question:
A sniper has died and gone to heaven. St. Peter has assigned him
to put a shot on the devil himself. The Devil is dancing at one edge of
the head of a pin. The angel/sniper's hide is on the other edge. Calculate
the shot.
:)
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 11:34:39 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.31.213.119)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:32:20 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.116.202)
LAP THEM RINGS, you'll be a better person for it.
Scenerio:
You are a wannabee sniper, you haven't been trained by the Gooch Master yet. You are in the woods bear hunting. You are at the bottom of a 75 degree incline hill and spot a bear at 1100 yards with your super duper mildotted spotting scope. You slowly pull the rifle to shooting position so to not be detected by the mean old bear. At the same time you are pulling out your calculater, milldot master, slope doper and crystal ball. As you fumble through converting all the damn numbers and trig out all the poop, you here this strange sound coming down the hill. As you look throught the scope you notice the bear getting bigger and bigger. You butthole is now puckering. On ten power the bear now covers the entire scope. You still haven't got the correct poop yet. What is about to happen?
A) you hockey in your BDU's cause you aren't yet good enough to figure out all the poop.
B) you start cussing the day you discovered Sniper Country cause you used to be able to look through a duplex reticled scope and figure that the bear was in range and just shoot him.
C)You start yelling GOOCH, GOOCH, GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS!
D)Too late, the bear really looks good in your ghillie suit.
Bolt <reeldoctor@mindspring.com>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 12:41:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.138.190.53)
thanks
t
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:08:46 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.156)
Oops, sorry, just the one option.
Ned <michigun@hotmail.com>
xx, MI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:48:23 (ZULU) (your host
address: 207.89.136.103)
i have to admit i sorta skimmed through your reply, i'll re-read it when i get home from work.
but i think i can help you where your getting messed up on the train-jeep thing. one must remember that even though the two subjects are travelling at the same speed (and in this case the EXACT same speed) their motions are completely independant. in that .1 sec. when the bullet is between when the muzzle and the 100yard line the jeep and train have both travveled westward 8.8 ft. -independant of the bullet or each other. pick up a physics book, i guarantee you'll find i'm right. i understand that when you got your diploma Galileo was going through that whole "Inquisistion" thing, but that doesn't mean it can't still be revoked :)
i'm serious about the wind correction thing. somebody point me at some knowledge or i'm gonna get seriously logic-lagged on this thread.
kg
kg <drkg@bright.net>
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 13:54:39 (ZULU) (your host address:
205.212.118.89)
Back to my OP
Will <rogue308@mindspring.com>
"Sweet Home", ALABAMA, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 14:05:02 (ZULU)
(your host address: 199.174.134.175)
Celt: almost, not quite. The reason we build underground shooting tunnels is to negate windage. If you're in an airplane firing from wing tip to wing tip, there is no windage (we assume the plane is pressurized), and no deflection occurs without wind. As the bullet leaves the barrel, mark all forces exerted on it. You'll just get the three (powder, aeriel friction and gravity), nothing pushing it to either side once the plane is in equilibrium. For fun equilibrium case: you've got a balloon in the car for the kid. It's old, and only floating 4" off the roof (not touching). From a dead stop, you accelerate hard (a Ford 351, no doubt!). The balloon goes which way?
I agree, spin drift was more fun, but could be that I'm burned out on rotational motion, vector analysis, classical mechanics, yadda yadda for now. But hey, it's beer money!
Gig 'em Patron "ringknocker" Dave! Thought I sensed a large African field mouse.
Found a source for Lupita Mk4 sunshades if anyone's interested....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com >
The Physics Depot, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 16:12:32 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.180.85.177)
Torsten,
Could you you direct me to Waffen Frankonia on the internet. Everything
I have come up with is in German language. Do they do mailorder? Or is
it even legal for bullets?
Oh, one more thing. Is it an alright idea to use the 1" reducer bushings on 30mm scope rings. Or depending on manufacturer is it ok?
thanks again,
John
John <jhugdahl@pressenter.com>
WI, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 20:19:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.100.170.107)
For loctite, use the red, or grade CV adhesive/sealant if you NEVER want it to come off again. To prep the metal (since it's finished), you'll probably need some locquic primer. There are 3 schools of thought on balancing rotating assemblies (pistons, rods, and crank & such) with Mallory Metal. Weld 'em, peen 'em, and Loctite 'em. Loctite WORKS. If you ever want to remove it though, better go to yellow.
Mike: got the sling. Truth to tell, it's WAY better than I thought it would be. Now I know what everyone has been talking about. With this thing, I can loop up WAY faster than with my old leather thing! At the risk of someone calling this a gratuitous plug for Mike's sling, it has to be seen (and tried) to be appriciated. In my book, money WELL spent! I worried that it wouldn't be as "secure" as the leather, but it's GREAT! With it tight on my arm, no slippy, no strechy! Now if I could only get the M1Awesome back and put it on THAT rifle......
I'm gonna shut up for a while, seems to be becoming "Bravo Country"
;-)
Besides, I gotta win Ben Steins money, and bottle these 4 kegs.....
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic, with poor public schools, forerly known as the,
USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 22:49:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.240)
Just sewing and waiting for my 338 and 50's to show up. I picked up a scope Swarovski makes for Barrett. It is a 10X with a 30mm tube and 42 Objective and 120 minutes of adjustments. Very nice piece. Super clear optics.
For the guys that have been asking. The scope test has been a huge deal. I will finish the article in mid June and ship it off to Tactical Shooter for possible print.
I will finish an article on the Barrett XM107 about the same time. That will be sent for possible print also. Very neat little 50 Cal. I think the Army made a good choice. For the guys that do not know it, Tony "Airborne" ,who posts here, is one of the main guys at Barrett. Nice guy also.
Damm we have guys from most manufactures and many schools that post here. Very lucky site!
I have one question for the bigt wigs. Why is all the Black Hawk
Bashing going on on the Emporium? I have used products from many manufactures
and buy nylon to make into slings. At the Hathcock Match they gave products,
as I and several other manufactures did. That meant something to me. I
did see that a whole lot of other manufactures did not give anything for
the cause. Size of the company is not an excuse not to give to good causes.
I am a one man show, so is Mil Dot Master and Slope Doper and we gave.If
you guys are so pissed because Blackhawk has many items sewn in Korea strip
off your Nike's and walk barefoot. I will bet you that many other tactical
garment makers use nylon that is brought into the US from Foreign Lands.
The Nylon I use is from the US but I have no idea where the buckles are
made. I just know they are the best I could find for the slings. I do not
think the Emporium is a place to bash someones products and promtes yours
at the same time.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 23:22:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.201.176)
It has been awhile since my last post...spring time brings foals and calves around here ya' know.
I just bought three Remington 7400 rifles, synthetic stocks, iron sights in my number two caliber...30.06.
Out of the box, they are suprisingly accurate for a WalMart "budget rifle. It most definitely ain't a long range precision marksmanship weapon.
Questions to any who might know ( since I do not have a clue about these rifles )...
Any tips to squeak a little more accuracy out of these rifles?
Any accessories available for these rifles?
By the way... the search has ended for the .300 w/m match round recipe. Any interested parties contact me... keep in mind that these are my findings and that you utilize them at your own risk...kinda a "caveat emptor" thing... also prepare for a little delay in response since I have a lot of chores to do with the new calves and foals ( more feces to cleanup... hey I got kids... they can ern their beans and bacon).
Glocker21 out
Hooch <glocker21@yahoo.com>
Rural, Montana, God fearin' USA - Saturday, May 13, 2000 at 23:45:02
(ZULU) (your host address: 63.28.130.34)
Train Scenerio - 4.28 moa lead for 175gr 2600 fps M118LR. Lito is right, only the wind effect is counted, due to inertia the bullet travels with the train. If the train and jeep were in a vacum then there would be no lead required. It is the same effect of falling bombs from aircraft, only the air drag from the speed induced wind slows the bomb and prevents it from hitting the target dead on. The fun thing is that a 60 mph wind at 100 meters is squat, only 4.28 moa or 4.28 inches or 1.22 Mils for those who use, and love, the mil dot.
Planes, trains and Grizzely Bears!! Oh my!
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 00:14:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.207.193)
Kim and I were arguing about that one today after reading it last evening. She too says that it was the nazi symbol. I of course being hard headed (and nieve) said - nah... it stands for scout sniper...
Okay - so Ken sits down and readies him self for a large plate of
crow - and feels like a f*****g idiot for not associating the SS with the
WWII origins.
Ken :)
Ken <Ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, VA, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:02:45 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.4)
Yelling Gooch, Gooch, Gooch aint going to do you much good when Grizz is after you because this old boy believes in the old saying "I aint gotta out run the bear, I just gotta out run you."
You guys and this physics stuff.... GOtta be a law agin it.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 01:19:00 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.185)
Remember that it takes a heck of a pair of legs that lets a body take a beating! Either that or trip the other guy!
Mike on the new Barret, how is the grenade sound next to the ear? What is the approved technique for lefty shooters? How low can you get with the sucker? That mag looks awfully far back on the stock for any real low shooting. Does the mag on the ground effect cycling or feeding? What was your group soze at 1000? Inquiring minds want to know.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 02:04:59 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.197)
Now that the learned among you have straightened out those simple
physical concepts for the learning impaired (I suppose prudence would dictate
that I follow that with a smiley face) :) ; would anyone be kind enough
to spare a moment to answer my query ref mounting a scope extremely low
-will half a millimetre clearance between objective and barrel cause
any problems?
Thanks
Next, for those who want a theoretical problem to debate, here's one that I've never been able to adequately explain to myself:
At small arms engagement ranges; shooting up or downhill you hold lower than you would if shooting horizontally BUT at artillery engagement ranges you 'hold' higher (ie you ADD the angle of sight to the tangent elevation). Can anyone explain that?!
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 10:50:46 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.78)
Mmmm, basicaly, what you get is what you get with these guns. The older Reminton gas guns used to be tuneable to a degree and there were gizzies avaialble that could tune how the forend and gas system fitted up, but npt for the newer guns, at least that I have seen. If you are getting reasonable accuacy out of the things then be happy, 'cause they are generaly about 2 MOA shooters in my experience. Also, the gas system is remarkably primitive in these guns so loading flexibility is in the "not very" class-a good stiff load of IMR 4350 can absolutly wreck one. Been there, done that, delivered the bad news to the customer myself. And keep that chamber clean-just a little pitting can be fatal.
Me? I bought a 7600. More accurate, more reliable and dosent care
what powder you throw at it.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 11:33:41 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.31.213.119)
AIRBORNE!!!
Tony <50buildr@bellsouth.net>
Murfreesboro, Tn, USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 11:47:58 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.214.119.162)
At the ranges that the rifle shooter is engaging, the shot is point to point, that is... you are shooting "AT" the target, and making minor adjustments to compensate for angle, and you are part of the angle probem... you are in the vally (bad), or up on the hill (good :)...
But with artillery, you deal with very high arcs, and very loooong ranges, so your ranging tables are based on a flat plateau... if you are ranged for a target at 10,000 meters, the fall of shot will intersect the ground (or your level) at 10,000mtrs... but it will also hit closer targets that are higher, and further targets that are lower.
Take a paper, and mark "G" (gun) on the left side, and 10" away,
draw "X" for the target... and squiggle some sort of arc to the target.
Call that 10,000mtrs.
Now, put a new target ("NX") 1" above the old target.
If you squigle a new arc that will intersect the new target, you
find that it hits the plateau about 1.5" behind the old target.
So the reason is... that the artillery ranging "sees" both targets at 10,000mtrs, but the one up on the slopes, needs a 11,500mtr fall of shot to strike it.
How-some-ever... If you had a mountain howitzer, and were slugging it out with the enemy at 2000mtrs, and you were in the vally (bad), or on the peak (good :)... you would be making your compensations the same way as the rifleman.
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 12:22:23 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.112)
OK! OK! I give people abuse for being learning impaired and immediately word a question badly; I'll try to clarify:
I'll use a 3-4-5 triangle to illustrate my point:
a gun on a beach (altitude 0) wishes to engage a mountain target (altitude 3000) which is at a grid reference 4 km inland (therefore at MAP range 4 km)from which one can work out an initial firing elevation.
One then elevates the gun so that it is pointing at the target (that is apply the angle of sight)and then further elevate it by the elevation obtained earlier (thus I've pointed the gun at the target -like a rifle- and then further elevated in order for it to reach the MAP range measured -unlike a rifle)
BUT (as 'lito correctly asserts):
If this target is at altitude 3000m the actual range to the target is along a 5km hypotenuse (the SLANT range) and therefore we factor in some extra elevation to allow for this extra 1 Km (ie we 'HOLD HIGH')
Conversely:
A rifleman in a valley bottom takes aim at a hill top target (ie automatically applies angle of sight) further applies the elevation for the targets actual range (ie he has measured / estimated the targets actual SLANT range straightaway) BUT then holds low!
AAAAAAAAAAAGH! Having just typed all that; it's all flashed clearly into place! 'lito you're absolutely on the money when you state that it's all a question of scale -how often do arty engage targets at angles of sight of 30 degrees or more -answer: not very! (except -as you again state- mountain guns)
Well I've always said that ritual public humiliation is good for the soul -trouble is that that was self-inflicted!
I shall shut up and join the ranks of the learning impaired!
(You've got to feel sorry for my students!)
I am not worthy, a sorry excuse for.......etc.
Matt
Matt <MT@mtwilks.fsnet.co.uk>
UK - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 15:29:19 (ZULU) (your host address: 195.92.198.75)
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 19:30:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 208.249.180.3)
THe deal on the SS thing is that many Scout-Snipers use the nazi looking "SS" as a Scout-Sniper symbol out of ignorance as to its origin.
The National Guard Sniper School used to have an unofficial sniper challenge coin with the "SS" on its back (prior to my days, I assure you). A Special Forces Soldier who had attended the course had one and challenged another soldier in a bar over in Africa somewhere. Someone took exception to the coin and we soon had a top level Department of the Army investigation on our laps. I was at the school by this time and was ordered to undergo "senistivity" training since I was cadre at the school. I responded by stating that I was already sensitive and thats why I prefered a head shot so my target wouldn't have to go through life with a colostomy bag. (That went over big).
We used Norm Chandlers books to show that the "SS" was currently being used as a sniper logo in the USMC and other units and no connection to nazism was intended. HOWEVER, as I stated in an earlier post our viability was damaged and our command had more reasons to doubt our sanity.
Out
gooch <kentgooch@hotmail.com>
USA - Sunday, May 14, 2000 at 23:56:27 (ZULU) (your host address: 129.71.17.184)
Well, got the K&M Services neck trimmer all set up. Works like
a champ. I was running about .003-.005 run out with my finished handloads.
Now it's more like .001 or less. The nice thing is that I onlt have to
do it once. I saw a post sayng that Varget is too slow for an M1A, I disagree.
It burns very close to what IMR-4064 does. I've used Varget in my M1A and
it shoots and cycles fine.
A note on Nosler J4 competition 168s.
I bought a box of these bullets a few months ago and I was less than
thrilled with them. The Nosler company claims they are as good as SMKs
or better. Well I am here to say that in my rifle they are not. I tried
them in my M1A, custom remington and my .300 Win mag sendero. The best
groups were marginally better than my worst groups with Sierras. When seated
the display a lot of runout where SMKs do not. There were definite blemishes
on the slugs ie. folds in the jacket at the ogive and some bullets themselves
were showing as much as .003" of runout!
I've tried many different kinds of domestic brand match bullets
and find that the Sierras reign as king. Speer 168s are however almost
as good as SMKs but they have about 2 fliers out of a box. I personally
think that Speer 168s are very unappreciated, they are interchangable with
the loads I use with Sierras with only a micrometer to show the actual
difference in group size.
My only regret is that Speer has discontinued their 190gr match
bullet before I could evaluate it. Hornady's 168gr HPBT was the last place
in performance. Best group was .993" at 100yds.
Has anyone tried Lapua match bullets? I understand that they are
very good. They are very difficult to come by as well. I think that Sierras
will be topping all of my match loads for the long while.
Oh, the best group with the Noslers was .679". The best group with the Sierras was .168" this is impotrant for me since 100yds is just a load development distance. It allows me asses bullets for 300yds and beyond.
Semper Fi!
Bad Karma
Bad Karma <jwhiteII56@hotmail.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 03:35:04 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.79.209.124)
As for Nossler's, I found them to be better than Speer, almost identical to Hornady's in my rifle, not the worst, not the best. Guess this just proves something Andre (with the ') was saying. Best in one rifle isn't necessarily best in another. This is only with the 168's, never tried any of their other J4 offerings. Gonna try the Lapua's as soon as possible though. My previous hi-power partner SWORE by them, but bought Sierra's, which I agree are the KING until I find something better. Gonna try those Bergers too when I get the chance.
Please note that I'm not setting myself up as an expert, just passing on what info I got from "the experts". Hey, we ALL have to get our info from somewhere! I figure it's their bullets, might as well ask them. BTW, he also said that the bearing surface on the 175 is actually slightly shorter than the 168. Got the numbers that were quoted if interested.
Mr. Gooch: This troubles me greatly. To think that there are current
American troops and soldiers that either don't know or actively WANT to
be associated with the Waffen SS. What percentage do you figure KNOWS what
they're doing versus those that just think it looks cool, and have never
had any reason to think it might be an almost 50 year old symbol? Ignorance
I can most always forgive, socialism is another animal all together, and
one that should be terminated with extreme prejudice on sight! I should
note that I do not in any way equate German with Nazi. We've had our "bad
apples" too, current administration and goons not withstanding. God help
us since we haven't learned our history lessons.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
Welcome to "Bravo country", part of the banana republic formerly known
as the, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 04:55:21 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.180.85.130)
peter <18c@excite.com>
norwell, ma, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 05:05:33 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.214.84.35)
Luso.
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 08:42:59 (ZULU) (your host
address: 194.65.14.68)
Luso; Not sure what your having the problem with on your 4.5X14X40
just want to say that's real rare to have any kind of problem with
one of them. Why not try to resolve it with Leupold? They are quite
good about their lifetime warranty. IF the scope is new there might
be a dealer involved in this somewhere. IF I had a customer with
a
bad Leupold I'd trade it out with him knowing that Leu would fix
it.
Their warranty is transferable. Maybe you should tell us more about
the prooblem, never heard of such a thing as an unsquare ret. in
a
Leupold. What is the visual effect? Where are the adjustments u/d
setting in reference to their maximum positions? are you talking
error between dots or overall length of horiz vs. vert.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:10:24 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.184.248.252)
I have a question regarding painting up kit. I know that these sorts of questions are often asked and hope I don't bore anyone. Reference has been made on the site to 'bowflauge', however this is not available over here (not allowed to hunt with bows for starters !). Any recommendations for normal paint types and suitable primers would be appreciated.
Cheers, Dom
Dom <LethbridgeDP@cf.ac.uk>
Cardiff, UK - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:43:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
131.251.0.8)
Cheers,
Luso.
Luso <nop26522@mail.telepac.pt>
-, -, Portugal - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:53:11 (ZULU) (your host
address: 194.65.14.68)
On the Waffen SS thing, I went through a similar experiance that
Mista Googh went through with Command stepping in and telling us what naughty
boys we were, the individuals in one of out teams that were using this
logo knew well what it meant, but they thought , hey, it's a cool logo.
Needless to say, our CO put their balls in a wringer and we had
to have the Battalion wide "Briefing" on using the SS logo.
Thus you have a political issue that surrounds a group of people who are already looked at with intense scrutiny.
Kush out
Kush <smak@pce.net>
Buffalo , ny, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 12:59:36 (ZULU) (your host
address: 12.28.201.160)
Thanks for the credits on the Model 700LTR .260 Rem attempt.
Really its you, TorF, Torsten, Jeff A., Bill(CHOP THAT BARREL!)Rogers, that got me interested in the idea. I still feel that it would probably be the "Cats Meow" for a Universal Tactical/Hunting rifle.
A SUPER balance of weight, power and pinpoint accuracy.
Ahhh we can only dream.................
Chao!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 14:46:41 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.193.46)
Has anyone bought a copy of Stewart Wilsons long range sim. It looks like a great basic sim trainer and maybe just what I need to get a handle on this mil dot thing. I thought I understood it till I used the l/r demo. God, I must be the dummest brick in the yard! ARRRRRRGGG
Can they actually sell that sim in Kalifornia....and get away with it.
Jim D <jdekan@neosoft.com>
Humble, Republic of Texas, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 14:49:44 (ZULU)
(your host address: 209.196.109.146)
I have an ancient RCBS trigger pull guage thats not the most accurate
thing in the world.
Any recomendations on what to go with to upgrade, make, model, and
where to buy would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Danny
Danny Reever <dreever@supernet.com>
Arendtsville, Pa, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 15:09:35 (ZULU) (your
host address: 165.83.118.152)
Get the Chatillon weight gauge in 12 lb. capacity through Brownells.
The are Expensive, but well worth every penny. Mines worked super for over
15 years!
peteR <PNGREIFF@AOL.COM>
BIG CITY, BY-GAWD, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 15:26:16 (ZULU) (your
host address: 205.188.200.59)
Hanging Head in Shame
Kevin <kevmich@cadision.com>
Canada - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 17:43:01 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.131.114)
Thanks.
jonathan <jgleason@gunder.com>
- Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:18:11 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)
My Rem 700 pss is going to be pressed into service to kill two adult male wild boar that have been destroying an enormous number of seedlings on a piece of private agricultural property in Northern California. I have been issued the necessay depredation permit by the DFG.
I normally fire Federal Gold Medal thorugh this rifle to good effect (average of .7 MOA.) The barrel has been set back and rechambered, and the action trued. The rifle is otherwise unmodified.
Any insights into a more appropriate round for use on medium sized (estimated at 2575lb) game with thin skin and heavy bones appreciated. Of particular interest would be any information regarding Nosler ballistic tips (recomended by a local guide.)
Thanks in advance.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:54:30 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)
Thanks.
My Rem 700 pss is going to be pressed into service to kill two adult male wild boar that have been destroying an enormous number of seedlings on a piece of private agricultural property in Northern California. I have been issued the necessary depredation permit by the DFG.
I normally fire Federal Gold Medal through this rifle to good effect (average of .7 MOA.) The barrel has been set back and rechambered, and the action trued. The rifle is otherwise unmodified.
Any insights into a more appropriate round for use on medium sized (estimated at 2575lb) game with thin skin and heavy bones appreciated. Of particular interest would be any information regarding Nosler ballistic tips (recomended by a local guide.)
Thanks in advance.
yonatan <jgleason@gunder.com>
USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 19:57:49 (ZULU) (your host address: 206.251.30.4)
Ken
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
nokesville, va, USA - Monday, May 15, 2000 at 23:52:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 4.21.143.4)
CJ
Cayley J Carson <t18man@gateway.net>
NEW CASTLE, DE, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 00:14:00 (ZULU) (your
host address: 38.30.157.185)
Str8 - I agree with Pat on that JB stuff. Great once in a while or when for some reason the barrel shoots like crap. Not for everyday use, think in terms of valve GRINDING compound. Not as coarse but just as damaging over the long haul if over used.
Peter - The qualifications on correctable to 20/20 allows many a good shooter and fieldcrafter to be snipers. It is used only as a "discriminator", now that is a non PC word! If I have two snipers of equal qualification and everything is equal, one wers glasses and the other does not, then the one that does not gets picked. That is what is meant by the discriminator non PC word. Yes it does discriminate but I wasnt the "best chance" of the mission being accomplished, not if I hurt someones feelings. However, most of the guys wearing glasses know it is a discrimnator, just as smoking, devil handed (lefties for you guys who think in the PC terms), color blindness, to an acceptable degree, cross dominance, stuttering, and any other problem that does not stop but may hinder. I know of several individuals that are left handed, smoking fools that wear glasses and never have a cup of coffee beyond hands length, that will put a hurt on you at 1000 and not bat an eye.
Gooch - Trust me the SF guy knew and was being a butt head. Should have got his butt kicked for coining with that symbol. We are drilled over and over again about what is and is not acceptable "symbols" for public and overseas consumption. That sensitivity training is a semi annual thingy for us. Cripes it can be boring after the 6th to 7th time through.
Time to cut and run, have fun guys and hold hard.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 00:44:09 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.184)
I would tend to go along with Bill Rogers on the 168gr. A-Max. Since they are boars I don't imagine you'll be able to eat them due to the strongness of the meat. Should be good for pepperoni! I don't know how the thickness of their skull compares to a domestic hog; but most of the farmers around here use a .22LR and pop them between the eyes. Of course they aren't worrying about tusks and nasty dispositions.
Good hunting,
Doc <docs@fidnet.com>
The springtime Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 01:01:33
(ZULU) (your host address: 216.229.72.94)
Thanks
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
lookin' for a computer job, in south west PA, USA - Tuesday, May 16,
2000 at 03:23:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.122.233)
I have been using JB in my old M4, my M4A1, C7's and my 700 (plus
my Browning P-35 etc.) I was always using Sweets 7.62 then JB then Sweets
- and was having no problems that I noticed. - Not a Good Idea I take it?
I must then appoligize for the bum steer I gave Str8shot.
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 04:25:02 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.130.43)
Situation :
Me and a friend of mine are in constant conflict regarding the choice
of the components that make a good sniper rifle. Those components (that
we are arguing about) are not in the caliber and the barrel lenghts, etc,
but on the actual cycles that the weapon and the shooter have to go through
to successfully fire the weapon in combat conditions. Following is a typical
exchange of arguments :
Him : Bolt action
Me : Semi-auto
Him : I would like to see you crawling around to pick up your brass
after you fire so as not to leave any trace of your presence
Me : Wow... that is a wonderful ghillie suit you made for yourself.
Try moving your arm when working the bolt to reload your rifle under that
thing when everyone has trained scopes/binoculars all over the place looking
for you. Remember human eye mechanics (locking on movement) ? Try that
and I am sure that somebody will oblige to send a sixpack of high-arc,
parabolic trajectory 155mm budweiser your way.
Him : Bolt actions shoot better groups that autoloaders.
Me : I prefer to have the option (and probably never use it but
still like to have it) of being able to plant 20 .308 caliber rounds in
something the size of a human heart within 28 seconds at a range of 700
meters than being able to fire 5 rounds in 30 seconds in something the
size of a human eyeball at the same range. There comes a point when we
are talking about groupings that gain nothing more that bragging rights
with no real world difference (talking about purely military application
here, not LE/SWAT situations).
Him : Bolt actions are more durable.
Me : For the number of years that I was issued an H&K G3/SG1
in my home country in Europe, the thing fired after being immersed in water,
sand, mud and rotting foliage and never had a misfire.. ever ! There were
a couple of times, in field exercises, that I had to sink 3/4 of my body
in a puddle, hold a low and wide bush between my thighs and another one
next to my head to avoid detection with the rifle cozily resting in 9 inches
of mudwater. Guess what, your point is void.
Most of the times, my ending argument is that however you look at it, the objective is the same: Plant a nail on a wall. The best hammer is the one that you know how to use best to make the most efficient possible job with it while in your hands.
In any case. The arguments go on and on and.... on....
Any late night takers that have the time and inclination to care to philosophise about the issue and throw in their 2 cents ?
AresP
AresP <ares@ezo.net>
Canton, OH, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 06:22:52 (ZULU) (your host
address: 24.93.223.224)
KK G - 3 A 3 conversion to Semi !
now the other way around is the more common question ! ; )
I have seen simple spot weld´s on the outside of the trigger housing, but if you would take out the trip bar , the one on the right side of the trigger tub, that should do it permanantly. You may have to install a small washer or just cut the top portion of the lever off, grind it to shape and leave it in position as a spacer.
To be 100 % sure also remove the metal trip in the bolt carrier bottom that trips the sear with a dremel tool.
Now if full auto is Rock n´Roll, I would say happy Hip Hop Earl !
t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 11:01:42 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.207)
Semi versus Bolt gun: Dude why not just blast with a tank and call that sniping. If you can not do it with one round you are not sniping you are blasting. If you think you are going to keep troops off you with a 20 round semi you are dreaming. They see, or find you and you are gone. trick is not being caught not blasting. I have shot all the semi snipers I could get my hands on and none will shoot as well and/or as long as a good bolt gun. Even that 1200.00 US PSG1 can not keep up with a decent 2000.00 bolt gun, plus it weighs as much as a LAW Rocket! Enough of this.
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 14:05:09 (ZULU) (your host address:
148.165.83.143)
M - What's my Mission?
E - What Equipment do I have available?
T - What Threat do I face?
T - How much Time do I have available?
T - What Terrain do I have to cross/hide in or behind/ or control?
P - Politics: what happens if I screw this up on CNN? Does my country/city/department fail if I miss or just wing the bad guy? What innocent dies? Is it my own family? Is it me and my spotter?
There is no fixed, perfect solution, or single, do-it-all weapon. The moment you say "That's it, that's the perfect machine," someone like Andy Webber or a hundred other real techy gunsmiths makes something just a little bit cheaper, better, lighter, sexy, or more accurate.
Snipers are supposed to be THINKERs and TEAM MEMBERs. There will
always be the very, very few singletons like Hathcock, Mawhinney, and Waldron,
but I'd venture the best teams are the shooter-spotter pairs that read
wind, shoot, and mutually protect. And, by the way, most military guys
shoot what they're issued (some get issued more tools from which to choose
from to meet the missions they've been tasked with).
Dave Liwanag <dliwanag@mgfairfax.rr.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 14:47:33 (ZULU) (your host address:
24.163.112.159)
Now to Mike AND Patron Dave: I'm gonna "what if" you here. What if the semi auto weighed about the same as a M-40 full up, and delivered 1/2 MOA? I realize that 1/2 MOA isn't what you guys call great, but I would assume that it's passable, about like a PSS?
Not that I disagree, what I have I call a "spotters rifle", and think that it's almost perfect for that purpose. Besides, it's easier to look for a sniper (with a bolt gun) to team with than a spotter.
And while we're at names here, I'm gonna state a "policy" of mine.
A M1A is by definition a Springfield, but I hate calling it that. If a
hypothetical friend lost his testicles in a terrible industrial accident,
I wouldn't start calling him Alice. Therefore, just because there isn't
a selector on my M1A, I'm gonna call it a M-14 type or more specifically
a M-25, if I'm not calling her by her name.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000
at 17:55:40 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
The Shooter <kkonen@usa.net>
God Bless Texas, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 18:43:21 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.180.5.16)
If you're looking into NV sights for rifles count your blessings you aren't in Ca. Here it is illegal to have any night vision device on a firearm that projects it's own invisible light source, like the mounted IR lights designed to extend range or allow use in complete darkness. Ca. law from what I understand only allows scoped NV rifles to be completely star light dependent. A local gun dealer lost his FFL license a couple years back because he was selling restricted NV scopes that had IR sources built into the sight design.
For civ. use the FFC limits lasers to 5milliwatts I believe. The FCC puts them in to a Class order with civilian stuff being ClassIII type lasers. When selecting a visible laser go for whatever has the lowest wavelength as it will be more sensitive to the eye than the higher wavelength units. A 635nm wavelength seems to be the lowest I've ever seen a company go and it is said to appear to be 10 times brighter than a 675-680nm wavelength of equal power level. Getting up into the 830nm area and the laser goes into the IR spectrum if I remember correct.
What is really interesting is some time ago while I was surfing some
scientific sites on the web I found a laser kit designed to make a green
laser. It used what they called a wavelength "halfing" technique that got
the wavelength down into the mid 300nm length for a nice green laser. The
unit wasn't one of the gas lasers that take up a lot of space either, it
was a pen type unit that was solid state. The price of the stupid thing
was about 400 dollars or more though and making it into a weapon sight
would be a trick I'm sure. The whole reason I entertained the idea of making
it into a weapon sight is the fact that if a 635nm appears to be 10 times
brighter than a 680nm at 3mv then what does a 350-375nm laser look like
at 3mv? It would probably be a true daylight laser. I can't find the darn
thing anymore though, it's been about 2 years since I saw the laser kit
and I haven't seen it in recent attempts trying to locate it again.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, CA , USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 19:40:56 (ZULU) (your host
address: 136.168.218.50)
Kevin - You are right on the NRA High Power events, they were originally military oriented until the rich and infamous began gaiming it way back when. That is why there is the army service rifle events and even they are now being gamed to death. Actually sounded like you did pretty good with the equipment yuo are working with. Now if you had the 6.5s with the 30 incher and all the rest, then yeah you would have been in competition with them. As it was you didn't have a chance man!
MIKE!!! - PSG-1 (Also known as the Piece of S**t gun - 1) Why would anyone buy an over priced, heavy, blow back weapon that has a bolt that requires the patience of Job to re-assemble? Man you gave me a heart attack with that comment! I'll never forgive you! OK I'm breathing again. Sorry, lost my head there for a moment. SNIPE WITH A LAW!! Us the 57mm RR. Cool gun and has the signature of a main battle tank. On the 50s, no sweat. I got an email with alot of the info from that Murfeesboro dude!
Don - SS symbols are not worn openly at all anymore. Reason they were worn before was that many did not know of their significance. Those that did thought it was cool that they got away with it. Even tattoos are now inspected and any that are on the list of "opps" are removed from the body or the soldier is removed from the military through quality management measures (passed over for promotion this is a carreer ender). There is NO PLACE in the military for that crap. Our fathers fought those idiots, as did many German fathers. Let not their lives be in vain for the fancy of a punk that knows not his true heritage.
Chopper - what the hell you want an IR laser aim point for? So that the cop, or his partner, can't see you designating his cranium as your next shot? Gee, maybe that is why they are restricted sales. I think that that company has a policy of not selling theirs. Not knowing the company, I don't know which aimpoint you are talking about and some are not totaly eye safe. I do know that some companies do have IR lasers for sale to the civilain world. Again why? You need goggles to see the dam thing and that causes all sorts of shooting problems. You need two eye pieces so one is focused close and the other far for movement and shooting. You will "hunt for the dot" instead of just aligning on target and letting him hold a chunk of lead. These are problems and the reason most LEA and the military goes with white light, oh yes, forgot about that screwing up you seeing the IR designator. Go white light and forget the fancy crap.
Got way too long winded this time again. Guess I will have to learn how to curb the babble.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 19:53:04 (ZULU) (your
host address: 64.12.104.151)
Anybody tried that "Diamondback Como?" Saw it on some hunting channel.
Tell you this, Nature don't build much better than Diamond Back
for hiding. If it doesn't turn dark at long range I can't think of anything
better to blend in. That old addage "Watch for Snakes" is a
real oxy moron. You don't see a Back till he moves or rattles unless
he's in the middle of the highway. Looked great of course in their ads
but I suspect it's the ultimate desert or any ground camo. It just kind
of gets lost... like autuum leaf. Out to be better than tree bark too.
Bill Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 20:42:45 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Kevin <kevmich@cadvision.com>
Canada - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:31:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
207.148.135.153)
IR aiming systems work quite well on CQB weapons, and can also be very effective on some crew-served weapons. They have no good points for sniper ops, and more than a few bad points. Standard night vision scopes ( I rather like the Elcan Blackcat ) with a reticle give you a better aiming point without the possibility of detection or blockage, and are much less prone to failure.
I've got an IR laser on a suppressed MP5 that works great when operating with NV goggles, but that's a completly different role than a sniper.
Cory Trapp
SAS Products
Class II
Cory Trapp <Cory_Trapp@email.msn.com>
Paulden, AZ, USA - Tuesday, May 16, 2000 at 22:54:14 (ZULU) (your host
address: 63.14.189.73)
Bravo, does this semi you are talking about come with swamp land? Seriously, in 1981 I approached a Military Smith and asked him to turn my M1A Super Match into a sniper rifle. He walked into the back of his shop and came out with a McMillan Built M40 and said "You owe me my cost on this. You want me to sell this piece to cover it?" Well I switched then and there and never looked back. Ask the guys at Storm where I was hitting the targets from the towers all week and tell me I made a mistake.
I used a M1A to win a Gold Medal in High Power in the Police Olympics, but that is just game play, not my life on the line. If I think I am going to need an Assault Weapon I am taking my M4/M16 and running like hell. As a matter of fact I would take my light bbl Car15/16 shorty over a clanking pistol anytime
Undude/Mike
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 00:57:53 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.197.31)
Now, I understand that the bolt on the Rems (or Wins, whatever) is a solid nice piece, but what about the trigger? Seems to me (UNEDUCATED, NOT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCED) that the triggers on these rifles wouldn't be up to the service that youse guys are talking. Do the Timneys, Jewels, factory Rems, etc stay working good after being through NASTY outdoors? Do you guys use something along the lines of the factory Mauser triggers on your "for real" sniper weapons that see service in the mud and muck? I mean, the trigger assembly on the M-14's and like are tremendously robust and tremendously easy to clean thoroughly. Not that I'm trying to make a case that anyone is wrong, just interested in LEARNING what I obviously don't know.
I'm just wondering what I'm looking at. After all I just MIGHT have
to get a bolt gun TOO. Don't think I could trade off the M-25 without copious
blood loss though. The thing is just TOO good as a battle rifle. BTW, extremely
little swamp land in high desert plateaus of Utah ;-)
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
liberty? what liberty?!, You're in the new, USA - Wednesday, May 17,
2000 at 03:41:51 (ZULU) (your host address: 209.180.85.210)
As a moderatly skilled and experienced armorer on guns both gas and bolt, allow me to say this: everybodys right. And wrong too, of course. :)
First, not all gas guns are created equal. I cant comment on PSG-1s
(and at that price-point, who the hell cares anyway) but I can say that
the M1-A/M14 dosent cut it as a precision rifle under field conditions,
period. Unless you have a rather high-echelon armorer with a bag full of
goodies tagging along with you, that is. Just too much stuff to go wrong,
too many of the stunts you have to pull are too fragile to hold up in the
woods. Its all chewing gum and bailing wire compared to how a bolt gun
is set up. To me a tuned M14 with a low-power scope is a solid spotters/DM
rifle (if you think 7.62 NATO is the way to go for a spotter/DM rifle,
but I digress) because not only is it quite accurate while the accuracy
lasts, but when the spell has worn off and it starts shooting like a rack-grade
M14 again, it will still be accurate enough to fulfill that mission pretty
well. But real precision work on a day-in, day-out basis? Not for me, thanks.
I talked to two Scout-Sniper qualified MPs from Camp Lejune about a year
ago, when they were fresh back from a set of trials up at Quantico as part
of the selection process for the Designated Marksmans rifle. They shot
M14s will every trick known to man and the Corps pulled on them and they
were totaly, totaly unimpressed. Something having to do with the zero wandering
as the temperature changed over the course of the morning...
Now, on the other hand, I havent fiddled around with a Knight but
I have shot an Armalite AR10-T a fair bit now and I have to say its pretty
impressive: a solid sub MOA shooter that dosent do wierd when it get hot.
It just keeps banging them in there. Furthermore, it has all of the same
basic attributes as its 'lil brother, the M16. Once you get those things
into NM tune, there isnt much to go wrong with them. I understand that
the big ARs are a bit more finiky but thats just a matter of debugging:
the fundamental relationships between the parts are the same. The same
MPs also had shot an Armalite AR10 variant at some point, officialy or
otherwise. They seemed to have a fair bit of respect for it. I didnt have
time to discuss the matter in depth, but you got the impression that they
thought it an honest, decent rifle, in any event. That tells me that they
at least thought it had potential. Of course, the Corps went with the M14
in the end, much to the dismay of the Chandler brothers, those MPs and
a lot of other folks.
As for tactics and doctrine, I am not nearly as qualified to speak
as others here, but I will say this: the assuredness with which one takes
a side on this debate should be directly proportional to the accuracy of
ones crystal ball. Different shooters have differing doctrines to suit
their differing missions and hopefuly they get to draw the equipment to
match, but you can't tell me that they cant run into a situation where
they make one choise and then when they get out on a real-world operation
where they wouldnt wish to *hell* that they had made the other choice...God,
if I only had had the time to get off the second shot...God, I wish could
have put that one in a *little* more precisely...You pays your money and
you takes your chances.
-Tom
Tom Simpson <bullet@sc.rr.com>
Colatown, SC, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 04:06:19 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.163.36.207)
S chutz S taffel = protection squad
Please note the difference between those that were voluntary members
of the original political SS (black uniform, with the flag on the arm,
the ones you see on TV).
And those that were drafted into the Waffen SS (field gray with
eagle on left arm).
Two different pairs of shoes here, but the same insane management.
Not trying to come up with exuses, just giving info in the light of the scout sniper symbol ignorance.
t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
G3ermany - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 07:18:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.224.19.19)
You would have to aim to the left and right as well as up and down. Your bullet will travel in a spiral path due to the very significant corolis forces. Since there is no gravity, just a constant accelleration vector, your shot would continue at a tangent from the location it was fired from (since the spinning station would not continue to accellerate the bullet). To look at it another way, you are laying on your back on a huge, very speedy merry go round. When you shoot directly into the air your bullet will travel straight up from where you shot it with a horizontal componant equal to your horizontal velocity. Just like if you spin a rock on a string and let go. To throw it ahead of you, you have to let go when the string is streched out to either side of you (depending on the direction of it's spin). However, if you were really cool you could simply jump really high and then aim at the target as you would a target moving in a circular fashion.
Derek Conrad <dsconrad@swbell.net>
Manhattan, ks, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 10:22:25 (ZULU) (your
host address: 208.189.101.130)
Mike and Chopper - I am having a lousy time with humor here lately. Guess the grumpy old man side of me didn't allow the humor show. Those statements were in jest and ws not meant as slams. Guess I am put back on joke probation again.
Bravo - You can have alot of fun with your M21/25. Just don't expect it to hold the same once you get it into a field environment. While that sucker will keep on shooting, as will the G3, it will not be as acurate and each time the accuracy disolves to where you then have an M14. Life sucks but hey, it makes a hell of a battle rifle! :-)
Got to go guys.
Rick
Rick <rbowcher@aol.com>
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 12:12:39 (ZULU)
(your host address: 64.12.104.154)
Yours,
Joe Jones
Joseph H. Jones <jhjones@lsil.com>
Portland, OR, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 14:28:01 (ZULU) (your
host address: 147.145.40.41)
Enjoyed the physics, just remember...well there's really no simplifying it. You want the projectile to end up where the target will be, and you have to figure all the forces that act/will act on it over time untill it get's there. On the space station you are firing in a perfect enviroment at a target that will move away from your point of aim in an arc "upward" as it continues to be forced to orbit about the center of the cylinder. Oh well, get a basic physics book for tons of examples that really open the eyes; then run them through your calculator to find out how little affect they have on (most) real-life distances and situations.
Just a quick note on where to find "million" "mom" "march" information. Try freerepublic.com.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3920a6f87297.htm
This thread contains pictures -somewhere there's an article about
exactly who the organizer is. Not to spoil the punchline, but she's a big
Hillary supporter and former Democratic Senator's manager. (that's spelled
"housewife" by the major media)
Chris
Chris <cmw@tiac.net>
USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 15:08:23 (ZULU) (your host address:
38.32.77.9)
It is the FDA that does regulate infared night vision that can damage the eye of an unknowing viewer, several sources told me. I am an attorney and tried to find the specific regulation on the computer but after wading through tons of regs on lasers, etc., I stopped since I did not have time to continue. However, Rich Urich of Excalibur has posted more than once about this reg, and John Norrell, who I work for refinishing, assured me this is the case.
I have had an IR laser years ago that I used with night vision but in recent years, I have simply used 3rd gen top quality equipment without sighting with a weapon. I have a $3,500 unit for sale now, in fact, as I often get this kind of gear through Norrell to play with and have found that while using an IR laser is fun, you can also simply get a regular laser and have the factory reduce its power so as to not damage night vision, as another alternative now that IR units are unavailable.
rtschiemer@aol.com
RTschiemer <rtschiemer@aol.com>
conway, ar, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 16:50:02 (ZULU) (your
host address: 152.163.206.176)
Jim D: sure, a mini-14. Why not? I've heard that they're fragile,
but mine (an origional 180 series) hasn't ever broken anything. From the
factory, a
sniacy stinks. If you need the name of a good smith for one,
I can get it to you. He'll put a good barrel on it (unfortunately increasing
weight some) and you've got a rifle that will put groups at 100 yards you
can cover with a quarter or smaller. The rear aperature sucks bad, and
I've not found a good replacement yet. Been kicking around the idea of
scoping a ranch version, as it wouldn't use the aperature anyway.
Bravo <Bravo762@yahoo.com>
the banana republic formerly known as the, USA - Wednesday, May 17,
2000 at 17:46:54 (ZULU) (your host address: 12.9.223.170)
Thorsten: I will take the M14 as an 308 semi rifle over the G3 sorry. I would take the FAL over either. I would take the AR15 over all of them.
Rick, no offense. I was going for the reverse humor on you and I
failed.
MikeMiller <Tactical@tacticalintervention.com>
Calif, USA - Wednesday, May 17, 2000 at 19:53:59 (ZULU) (your host
address: 205.188.196.38)
.
steve <hockyref@bellatlantic.net>
got a lot of cases to prep, and load in a short amount of time, USA
- Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 01:08:07 (ZULU) (your host address: 151.201.137.11)
~David
David <dp250@aol.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 02:52:19 (ZULU) (your host address:
152.163.213.79)
B.Rogers <brogers@elkhart.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 03:14:30 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.184.248.252)
Scott is TC on a M1a2
TorF
Snipers
Scott Cunningham
04/24/2000
3:22:08 PM
Refers to Reply#69869.
Remember that the sniper will have a chance against a TC, but he is shooting at a head sized object from some distance away. Also, the tank may be moving. While it is not an impossible shot, and a TC might actually have more of his body exposed (especially on the M1 where you have to ride way out to see over the .50 cal) it will still be a very tough shot.
Second point: the sniper better make damn sure that he takes out the TC on the first shot as he will never get a second. As soon as the bullet impacts that tank will start looking for the sniper. Most infantry (snipers included) have utterly no ide how a thermal sight works and will quickly be turned into a fine aerosol mist as the tank sends a HEAT round into the snipers camouflaged (but not thermally protected) hideout.
Once again, I will stress that a sniper can kill a TC, but the argument
is similar to a PT boat vs a Battleship debate. If ALL goes perfectly the
sniper may kill a TC. If ANYTHING goes wrong he will probably pay for his
error with his life.
TorF <torf@aftenposten.no>
Oslo, Norway - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 10:45:28 (ZULU) (your host
address: 193.212.93.33)
RD
RD <kheldaar@lvcm.com>
Lost Wages, NV, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 10:52:03 (ZULU) (your
host address: 24.234.22.165)
Okay Roster Hogs - sorry for any spotty connectivity late last night ---- doing some connectivity work....should make things move along a little bit faster for youn'z
Ken :)
Ken <ken@hunters.org>
Nokesville, Va, USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 11:06:05 (ZULU) (your
host address: 207.233.164.10)
thats why they make diffrent flavors for us !
I have a M14, lots of G-3,A3´s in the arms room, and even one of those recycled Dr. Pepper cans you call AR 15.
I still like the taste of my G- 3 best, but I´d sure like to have the AR sights on it, and the M14 stock length.
Maybe some cool whip too !
On the tank commander deal,
If its a hit and the guy drops into the turret bleeding or without a heart or head then his crew is gonna get out of dodge fast. If its a miss I doubt that with all the noise and his intercom on the TC will even notice.
good point on the thermal camo conciusness though.
just my 2 Pfenning.
t
"Ende"
torsten <7.62@lasercon.de>
germany - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 11:15:31 (ZULU) (your host address:
62.156.8.150)
If the Shooter is behind a berm, or ridge, (and not sitting out in the open with a wookie suit), and the TC droppes back into the tank... the "Thermal" sighting equipment isn't gonna help... and though the tank is a rolling fort, it has it's weak points.
In Afganistan, the Ruskies couldn't get out of the tanks to take a wizz, or make chow... they were prisoners in their own tanks. They showed their head, and it was bad.
I think Torsten had it right... If the TC falls into the tank bleeding, or dead, they're gonna button up and look around... if they don't see where the threat is coming from damn fast, they're gonna run til they can work out a plan.
The lone shooter (or pair) has a terrific advantage IF they know how to use terrain, and have good training, and know when NOT to shoot.
I think that there is a tendency to fit the "sniper" into one scenario, with one weapon, against one type of target, and assume that anything else, or any other weapon won't do, won't work.
If I were a sniper in Somalia, I'd rather have a M14-M21 then a M24 bolt gun... and we got creamed by hoards of untrained riff-raff (yeah, I know... the politicians too).
But there are many weapons that fit many different game plans...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:10:38 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.61)
The mount on the .50 M2 is the one piece Unertl "Bridge mount", screwed to a metal block, and attached to the M2...
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:18:41 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.61)
Hats will be back in stock in a few days so thank you for your patience.
Scott Powers
Scott Powers <xring@voicenet.com>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 20:24:53 (ZULU) (your host address:
209.71.86.73)
The gun shop is having raffles galore and I'm gonna go down and throw
a couple more tickets into the box for the Glock G36 that they are raffling
off(a couple actually). There are also reps. from Benelli, Leupold, RCBS
and one other that I can't remember right now.
B. Douglas <uglygun@lightspeed.net>
Cowpie, Ca., USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 21:19:28 (ZULU) (your
host address: 209.165.93.179)
DM vs SS (Not nazi's)... Nope, we wore that one out. I'm just not
so sure that the line of separation is all that sharp as it has been in
the past.
If you are in a given service, and a slotted shooter, then your
job may be narrowly defined... but on a site like this where their is military,
and LE... and in an environment where most troops are training for mixed
area combat roles... Well, you know what I mean!
'lito
Pablito <condor@mags.net>
USA - Thursday, May 18, 2000 at 23:18:57 (ZULU) (your host address:
208.249.180.61)