Sniper Country Duty Roster

Brogers, sent email on 300wsm.

Shotguns again. Pattern one at 10 feet and see how big pattern is. Now only had 25 plus years of having to teach and shoot with one of these, in department of 200 sworn and 75 or so shotguns at a time, that where changes every five years, or about 300 plus shotguns used, tested and dealt with as armorer, so not all that big a test amount, but here goes.

Average spread of 12 ga at ten feet is less than 2" diameter pattern. Now once in awhile you get the errant pellet that just goes right or left three feet to kill the wrong person (not a plus) but the pattern of 95% or more is less than 2". I dont call that point and shoot. You still have to aim and the sights have never been wonderful. The Ghost Rings are nice but we still have all the other limits. By the way 20,18 or 14" barrel does not change pattern much it ahs everything to do with choke. Shorter barrel has less felt recoil and is easier to handle.

The idea that racking the slide scares folks is highly over rated in LE work. Lets see if they are thinking about attacking and you rack slide, you better be able to shoot them or when they approach you have long gun to hold while you use impact weapon. Pistol is used in the case far more because you can handle pistol and impact or chemical wepaon far better than shotgun and the others. I speak form experience in this.

The idea of them giving up in LE, well once again not what I have seen. 'You wont shoot me" and run away. Run faster away and sometimes they gave up just like when pistol was pointed at them. Only advantage I ever saw with shotgun was High Risk Car stop with multiple officers and multiple susects. The racking seemed to have calming effect on badguys and no worries about what to do with it if physical not lethal confrontation ahppened.

For tactical use, where you most likely have to shoot Pop gun kicks its butt.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 00:11:08 (ZULU)

Brogers/'Lito- visited every shop I could think of in 2 counties and no one had a "squeaker". Please advise as to manufacturer/brand name. Or, just let me know what I'd owe you to ship me one.

Shotguns- way back in the olden days, I noticed that getting out of the car in the ghetto with my Remington (if appropriate) allowed me to get through the working night with a whole lot less "in your face" behavior and resultant paperwork. Not sure that'd work (as well) now. I do agree that the effect of racking the shotgun is over rated. It does generally discourage the uncommitted.

WR Moore
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 01:19:43 (ZULU)

LTCHip.

www.battlefront.com

game title is "combat mission"

medicjim
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 02:08:12 (ZULU)

"...Average spread of 12 ga at ten feet is less than 2" diameter pattern..." Granted, it is still three times bigger than the largest handgun round you are likely to be caring.

I would still like to have a shotgun instead of a handgun 'knowing' that hostilities were likely. But, I am also an avid bird hunter which may have something to do with my decision.

Just my .02

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, Maryland, USA - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 02:29:46 (ZULU)

Mission: BadLands--BR Memorial Sniper Match

Thank you to Bobby, Zee & family, AceHigh, Gooch, Steve, Chuck, Chuck H., Sarge, Greg and ALL the folks that made this match so special for me.

The plaque is beautiful and Bobby chose the perfect spot--the Unknown Distance Range! Bruce would love it! He'll be able to look over a lot of shoulders!!! The constant wind is a perfect reminder of Bruce's favorite scripture: Ecclesiastes: 1:6

Also, a big thank you to the teams that participated in the match. They have a true committment to their craft. Just remind Kevin's Dad to "watch his SIX!" And, if you see Frank, remind him that the "Child Bride" is NOT really a child!

I have to admit, I could hear Bruce whisper to me during the STALK to "look for what does NOT belong." I'm now really good at finding cactus, calves and clumps of grass.

And, a special "thank you" to Pikasso for keeping me warm! LOL

Seriously...thank you! It's not enough--but it says it all.

LouAnn Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 03:22:06 (ZULU)

If I am not mistaken the squeaker can be had from any novelty shop.

Or inside some plush dog toys.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 03:24:57 (ZULU)

Edit:

My post should have read:

"Andy's Dad"....not, Kevin's Dad. Sorry!

LouAnn Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 03:32:50 (ZULU)

W.R.M.; I saw one last week in Armadillo. I can't remember exact price but it was a good one from Lohman I think. When I go back (I am supposed to go this next week ).I'll pick it up and send it to you. Seems like about 6 or 7 bucks.

You might try just making a loud kissing sound if you get a chance. I've not tried that on a fox but it works on yotes and cats. I've coaxed yotes 800 yards away doing that. Best there are no women around unless your serious.

Mike; I sent you a Jpeg and some questions.

Sgt.; I sent you 2 sets of pix on 2 different mails.

I can make more pix of anything you need.

Brogers
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 03:37:04 (ZULU)

(posting from vacation in sunny Orlando, FL)

BRogers: Check out the "tactical" / reduced recoil loadings for your 12ga. Federal and others make some in buckshot and slugs with recoil similar to trap loadings. If you can handle trap load recoil those should work for you. I've used similar stuff in 3-gun matches. Very handy when you have to shoot around 25 rds of buckshot and 25 rds of slugs along with the pistol and rifle stages in one day.

Rod Regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 13:49:48 (ZULU)

Granted, for someone who has been trained and stays sharp with a handgun, it's a better choice. And ten feet may have been a poor choice of ranges to illustrate but over all, for the average home defender, the shotgun works pretty good.

If the burglar or home invader says "you won't shoot me" and runs away, you've accomplished what you set out to do. We all know that a longer gun is more effective when compared to a short barreled hand gun. We've seen a novice handgunner with a small revolver or pistol miss the side of the hill when you put a little stress in the mix. A shotgun is a more stable weapon when their knees are knocking together, sounding like a room full of woodpeckers.

My grandfather told me a story about being in a service station when a robber walked in with a double barreled shotgun. He said the guy pointed it at him and told him to stay where he was. My grandfather said he looked down both barrels of that shotgun and saw tombstones at the bottom, and stood there like a statue until the guy was gone.

A lot of street thugs and gangsters will stand up to the LE guys on the street because they know the rules of engagement, whether the Cop has a shotgun or not. The geek standing in his shorts, in the dark, in the middle of the night doesn't know squat about rules of engagement and is subject to cut the bad guy in half (a figure of speech) with that 12 ga. I was speaking of the average home defender, not a well trained warrior with the kind of mindset mentioned before.

I won't flog this dead horse any more :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 14:23:42 (ZULU)

This question--and my asking it to this assembled group---speaks volumes for the eclectic knowledge base represented by "we shooters:"

I'm looking for data---"Big Three" auto makers profits vs. labor expenses over a span of say 20 years. Prefer percentages year to year. Any ideas on sources?

What gives: My in-laws are as blue a block of libs as you ever want to meet. Our dining table arguments always devolve to politics, and I am a lone voice in a sea of talking point regurgitation. I then get the final word in on the local paper's editorial page (these guys seem to like my writings and rantings). It is BIG fun for me, and even funnier when they complain about "submitting often ignored rebuttals." I tell them "did ya send in the check? Gotta have at least 50 bucks to get published..."

Libs; they actually believe that! heheheheh.

yeah, off-topic...but big fun for me.

Anyone try patterning a shotgun with about a 13-3/4" barrel? maybe a tad less? the whole concept, as I saw it, was to "insert barrel into target and pull trigger." This does two things, rids the threat and moves the body back some (running lanes). Three things actually: it also makes for a messy loud introduction that may just take other minds off of me as a target. It was and remained theory---thankfully. I was never big on the idea of having my ride blown out from under me! But, that sort of thing happens enough to plan for such "contingencies."

edited due to fat fingers and to add this:

http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/news_release.asp?NewsRelease=20050405.txt

Appears the attack resulted in mostly RTD injuries, and a handful of hospitalizations. No KIAs for us. Expect this was a trial run to bust a perimeter. I bet they do it again, and support by fire next time. The good guys better be paying attention!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 15:43:11 (ZULU)

LouAnn m'am,

Was an honor to have you here this past weekend, and we are extremely honored that you allowed us to dedicate the ranges in the memory of Bruce.You are part of the family, and we look forward to your next visit!

To Kent Gooch - really enjoyed working with you here this weekend, and look forward to doing more in the future! The competitors were very lucky to be able to talk to, and get tips from you and Steve both during the same event. Not everyday that happens.

To the people that helped make this happen:

MSgt Cecil Lay, Tsgt Wallace from CPEC, Tsgt Ron White, and the crew from the 188th FSW out of Ft Smith, BIG thank you for coming down and helping out on the aggressor end of things. Cpt Joel Ryals of Ft Leonard Wood MP school, thank you for providing K-9 support during this.

Sarge and Allen - Thanks for being great medics and taking care of the competitors like you did! It is greatly appreciated.

Chuck Hunt, Bruce Gordon, John Leveron, Keith Bowman, Greg Berthold, Rich Johnson, Chuck Jones, and I am sure I am missing some others..THANKS..there wasn't a thing I had to worry about getting done because of ya'll..it is appreciated!!!

To my wife Zee, Daughters Allie and Devin: Thanks for carrying out such a feat of feeding all the staff and competitors! I know it was a huge job feeding 20-40 people nightly.

Will give a break down of the match later on today along with the

scores.

Edited to add;

As listed above..I am sure I missed someone and I did miss someone that was VERY important to this event. THANKS to John Hammel who was Mrs. Robinson's escort during this event!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 16:05:34 (ZULU)

Rod; thanks I'm getting all kind of suggestions on this problem. I saw those loads your talking about in a magazine last week. My 12 Ga. is a Beretta O/U and I very seldom shoot more than a Dove or quail load anyway but it's very light and pretty severe after several rounds on the Dove flight. Somebody suggest the Limb Saver so I might try that. I'll probably have to use the slip on and it may make it too long. I got to thinking I might be able to put a different muzzle device on the Tikka and tame it down since it's so heavy anyway, but I may just go the .243 route. It's adequate for anything I still do anyway. My grass crawlin mountain climbin days are about done anyhow. "Man has to know his limitations."

Brogers
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 16:25:03 (ZULU)

Brogers-would appreciate most gracious sir.

JoeM-shotgun pattern has to do with choke, not barrel length. Ithaca made a run of full choke 18/20 inchers for the Corps back in the late '60's. Wonderful things. Big 3 financial statements/annual reports may have the cost figures you're looking for.

My additional comments on tactical shotguns got lost in 'puter lockup. Tactical buck is a great thing, stretches the effective range and reduces the punishment. #1 buck still packs the most weight of shot and is a better choice for up close & personal.

Recoil-if you face the target more squarely and put the butt on the chest muscle above the nipple with the elbow down, it minimizes punishment/bruising. If your legs are flexed they also eat up recoil. Good body armor helps too!

WR Moore
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 16:28:07 (ZULU)

No problem Bobby.

Those of you who missed The BR memorial match missed a butt wuppin. While it wasnt anything that a normal healthy american couldnt handle it was a challenge for sure. But Andy's Dad made it heart condition and all. He deserves a group hug for that one.

You military guys need to look at coming to the next one. It was basically a 3 day FTX. Nothing fancy just good mission oriented training in a hostile enviroment re: Afghanistan/Iraq like terrain. Some guys definately were shown thier limitations....

Out here

Gooch
Mount Ida, AR, US of A - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 17:11:33 (ZULU)

Patron Mike, your experiences patterning the smoothbores pretty well mirror the efforts that I made myself with both (GRIN) of the shotguns I had to purchase before I figured out that I wasn't all that good with one, regardless of what I did.

Some are natural born scattergunners I do believe. I also believe I'm not one of them.

What's a scattergun do? I was forwarded this, it appears that some folks have a mentality like mine, but on the terminal ballistics end instead of the functional reliability end. Gotta love a guy that does his own tests!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/3/

As for me, I'll try my hand at it. I just consider the expense part of the entrance fee. If I get better, I'll be surprised. If not, I'll make noise and have fun.

The pistol and the carbine should level things out to "average" for me.

Bravo
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 19:03:36 (ZULU)

Bill M: Learn something new each day--and you have good days. I never much thought about scatter guns until I saw the need for one in Iraq. That said, I "assumed" a choke was something to keep the pattern from spreading willy-nilly; and that the lack of one would spray pellets all over hell. Didn't matter one way or the other for our intended uses though---"insert barrel-pull trigger" and run through the gap! Well, now; I'll have to study up on my scatter gun stuff. The #1 loads weren't in the "system" although I've heard they are the best several times now. 00 Buck was what we were given. I'll dig into those numbers. I have a theory on unions, business decisions, and job losses. I need to tie it all up with hard facts before i nail them with it. thanks for the tip.

BTW- I have new tactics for whitetail on the homestead: Go in the back-40 thicket with a slugger, and mix it up point blank. A running doe at arm's length is a "fast mover" trying to swing on her! And, it was the most fun I've had hunting since I left Alaska!!!

Blake cannot miss with his single-shot 20ga. I am amazed. He just picked the dang thing up, and started downing pheasants one day---and hasn't stopped yet. And yeah, I am sick of rabbit...

I sent some thoughts on the attack over to a bud in "Intel" over yonder. The more I think about it--the more I see the need to revamp our security along certain lines.

Bravo: Email inbound regarding the above!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 19:54:17 (ZULU)

Buckshot size-actually, I've heard from several independent sources with (real world) experience with them that the 12 gauge fletchette rounds are the way to go for military shotgun use. Never had the opportunity to try them. Civilian use is probably not advised.

SAS uses the 870 as a universal door key with longer range than a sledgehammer if required.

WR Moore
Monday, April 4, 2005, at 20:59:31 (ZULU)

Bobby and Gooch, Talked with some folks who got to go to the match. Heard it was excellent and hard as hell. Also heard you guys ran it first rate and about as well as anyone on the planet could have. Heard nothing but praise for you two and your staff.

My thing worked out real well. Just waiting on paper work before I am off for awhile. Glad I went to job thing and sorry as hell I missed getting my butt kicked at the match. Figure all my old broken down parts would have reallt hurt after a few hours. Hate to think what a three day FTX would do to them.

Looking forward to fishing and shooting at Badlands.

Mike Miller

Mike Miller
CA, - Monday, April 4, 2005, at 23:36:01 (ZULU)

Lindy - Carried a sawed off M79 myself back then. For awhile we had some "special Flechette rounds" fo rthem then they were confiscated as "inhumane". Man, talk about an ambush buster! Defoliated one heck of a swath.

Joe - Agree with you on "warrior spirit". One of the main attitudes that I tried to get my guys into was that they were to kill as violently as possible and as quickly as possible. No discussions, no warnings, no let up or mercy.

Roger C. _ The main thing wiht pointing is the willingness to use. Too many think that just pointing is enouhg and they are unwilling to use wha tthye have pointed. A sure way to get it yanked away from you by some of today's a**holes. I do agree that Bgs do know that the LEAs won't shoot and that the normal citizen does not work under any rules but "this is my house".

Jow - I also think it was a prelude. I have seen in other locals whree they will test the waters using different techniques. One of hte things that bugged the hell out of me in El Sal was the lack of seriousness taken by the indig over little things like, snipped wire here and there, branches thrown over wire here and there. Approaches to the wire at night seeing how close they could bget without causeing alarm and then departures. It always amazed me when I would tell them that they were about to be attacked, and then they thought I was a magicaian because I knew that fact before it actually happened.

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 01:59:55 (ZULU)

Ref: Badlands FTX

It's over. I'm alive. That's good.

Third place will have to do.

Lessons learned...freinds made....nothing like it.

Now to heal.

Out.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 02:37:41 (ZULU)

As promised, here is the run down on the concept/operations of the Mission:BadLands - Bruce Robinson Memorial Sniper Match. (Sorry for the bandwith burn, but Sarge said it was ok to post this)

Friday -

After the dedication of the plaque to honor Bruce Robinson (BadLands is EXTREMELY proud to have been selected for this honor), Teams were given 45 minutes to zero the SWS and Observer's weapon, at any distance they wanted with the SWS, 100 yard only for the Observer's, but could only use 10 rounds for each weapon to do so. After the zero the teams were given an oporder to conduct an overwatch in the village of BadLands and cover the attack on the village by the 11th ACR. Enroute to the "village" teams had to make 2 Land Nav checkpoints in enemy controlled area. Once at the village, teams engaged targets with the observer's weapon, and both team members shot the pistol event. Teams were then given an oporder to proceed to the 1k range for night fire, once again going through enemy territory. After arriving and a positive headcount of contestants was obtained, aggressors were called into the TOC for safety reasons. Contestants then engaged the 500 yard steel half silhouette that was illuminated by a spotlight from the firing line. Teams were then given a rest break around the TOC (Boy..should have seen all the male bonding going on there, trying to stay half way warm). Teams were woke up Saturday morning, given a warning order to move to an Objective Rally point where the final oporder would be given. At that time, teams were told they had to stalk to a certain grid to take out a pair of enemy "artillery" spotters that were making mincemeat out of A Co 2/75th Inf Reg. Hate to say it, but the enemy artillery spotters dominated this event. After the stalk, competitors were taken to the TOC to recover, and then issued an oporder to move to ranges or pick up point, for 2 UKD events. Contestants were allowed to pick the target they wanted to shoot. Targets were scored nearest to farthest, with the closest target having a value of 20 points, the farthest 100. Teams were allowed a total of 2 shots. If they missed the first shot, they were allowed a second shot on the same target for half the target value. Teams at that time were rotated to the respective range that they had yet to shoot. After the UKD event, contestants were transported to the TOC location for the hamburger feed, and the night shoot, which was shot at 400 yards under parachute flares. Teams were then given a OpOrder to be at a specific grid NLT 0715 Sunday morning, and allowed to rest. Upon arrival at the RP, teams were advised that ALL battery operated equipment (IE Palm pilots, Lasers, GPS's) were not allowed to be used during this event. Teams were given the Grid coordinates of the target, then transported to the firing line, where they were given time to figure the range to target, by map spotting only. Teams had to determine their exact position on the map in order to determine range to target. After this event, teams were taken to the Dorm for a mandatory rest period of 4 hours.

Awards and AAR were conducted at 1300. From the AAR, all teams were exceptionally positive on the concept/operation of the match, and several ideas were obtained from contestants and staff on how to make it better next year. Listed below are some of the changes that will take place if this is held next year:

1. Teams will work from and report to a patrol base. Teams will be given oporders from there, and will have to return to the toc after completion of the oporder. Teams will have to determine what equipment will be needed for that particular mission, and will be allowed to cache any equipment that they think won't be needed.

2. The Observer will carry a paintball gun to enable the teams to engage opfor.

3. There will be a LIVE Fire Stalk. Teams will be allowed to shoot whenever they think they can accomplish the shot. Teams will follow the standard stalk conduct (fire blanks) until they successfully pass the 2 blank round fired criteria (IE ID Spotter, elevation checked on weapon, etc.) The observer will then move to a safe area and the team will engage a iron maiden at the observer's location.

Winners of the 2005 Mission:BadLands are as follows:

1st Place

Wade Stuteville & Stephen Barrier

2nd Place

Brad & Ken Stuteville

3rd Place

Frank Galli & Kevin Mussack

You guys did a HELL of a job on this!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 02:58:56 (ZULU)

Ref:Mission Badlands

I want to publically thank Bobby for putting on such a fine match. It was the most demanding and realistic test I've participated in since leaving the military.

I also want to appologize to Bobby. On Friday night or maybe Saturday morning (I can't remember) Bobby saw me and asked if I was ok. I looked back and said that I'd quit this match only if and when I qualified for a plaque next to Bruce's. I didn't mean to spook you Bobby.

Badlands is like a family. I've never felt so at home. I'm proud to to be a part of it. Thanks.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 03:27:13 (ZULU)

Rick,

You couldn't be more right. One of the things I teach to home defense students is "if you're not gonna use it, don't drag it out". Because the bad guy will most certainly take it from you and use it against you. You either teach them Joe's "warrior spirit", or teach them escape and evade.

Joe,

I was actually inspired by your post on the "warrior spirit". Rod teaches the same philosophy at Storm Mountain and it's the only mindset that's going to work in a combat situation if you want to survive. Great post.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 03:51:32 (ZULU)

Mike Miller,

Come on out, neither BadLands nor the fish are going to disappear.

Kevin,

I had no doubts about you completing the competition, Surrender and Quit isn't in either of our vocabularies! You ARE family and don't you forget it....ya hear?

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 04:29:01 (ZULU)

Joe,

It`s comforting to know that I`m not the only one who runs the scenarios while I wait for my burger at Mickie-D`s (...Don`t pull up too close...let yourself an out..). If my wife knew what went through my head she probably would deny knowing me. I don`t just 'go to the mall'. I don`t just 'go to the movies'. I don`t just'go to the grocery store'. I watch people and circumstances unfold. I am condition yellow 99% of the time...and I worry about the other 1%. Not jittery and paranoid mind you, just prepared. I think the surreal moment of realization is the moment where most innocents die. I`m just trying to prepare for it. I know my "training" cannot approach what you and others here are used to. I do my best and hope to carry out a proper response if ever necessary. I hope it`s never necessary. Last month three armed roberies occurred in my town. One at a small pharmacy that my wife frequents. The population is about 2700! I can`t help but wonder what happens one day when I`m in isle 3 checking out the bunion pads when I hear some dirtbag order 1000 Oxycontins..."NOW!" and look around the corner to see him waiving his 9 at the clerk. (Hmmmmm, cell or .40?) Like I said, hope to never find out.

PS; Yes, the local PD caught ALL of them!

Jus` a civie riding the planet here in beautiful downtown....

Steve Racer
Dillsburg , PA, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 07:27:58 (ZULU)

Rick: the flechette rounds were indeed impressive. I saw a note recently which indicated that they were still in the inventory, but it's hard to imagine that anyone would be foolish enough in today's climate to permit their use.

Steve: I go for the cell phone first, and only light up a bad guy if I had to. There's too many downsides to doing the latter if it's avoidable. Sometimes it may not be.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 12:06:31 (ZULU)

Cell or gat- go with the cell. Too damn many of these guys have outriders in the target to take out any Dudley Doorights who may pop up unexpectedly. Check your 6 even before pulling the cell and watch out for those mirrors.

WR Moore
Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 14:20:20 (ZULU)

Steve,

If the guy is light'n people up and you think you're next, it's one thing. If it's just a robbery, it's another. Just hope he doesn't steal the medicine you have a need for. :)

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 16:33:52 (ZULU)

Looking back at the Shotgun thread;

Tactical shotguns will lose some of their speed advantage if the gun doesn't fit the user. The same thing that makes a good quail shot will make a good tactical shot. Pistol Grips etc are an abomination of a fine weapon. You also must pattern and choke properly for fast tactical shots to be advantagous. Go into a gun shop that has lots of brands and shoulder different guns. Hold it naturally without moving your head or shoulders to get in line and see if both beads line up. Are they exactly where you are looking? I mean exactly... IF not the gun doesn't fit you. Once you find a frame that works you are looking for a tactical shotgun of the same pattern. This will allow you hundredths of a second advantage in the scenerios and real life situations. Just because it has a big magazine and some flashlight gadgets it doesn't a tactical shot gun make. Some guns shoot a bit high in order to lead rising birds and give some elevation to the shot. Although it's not neccessarily a great advantage on tacticals. It is nice if the pattern circles the sights and not below or above too much. Often the only way to find out for sure is shoot it. If there's no rib the barrel can be bent slightly to correct for where it shoots.. to be avoided with short barreled tacticals but cheapies like Mossberg and some others can be quickly brought into line this way even on shorter barrels. Too much bending may affect the pattern usually by tightening it and that's not always a bad thing. How do you bend it? Got a tree fork around. No scaring and the bend is slow and uniform. Go slowly. You'd be surprised how much quicker the bad guys drop when it fits you. And how much easier it is to take out a moving target.

Brogers
Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 16:43:38 (ZULU)

you should have seen the 10 guage flechettes..

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 18:05:19 (ZULU)

Shotguns- there's much truth in what Mr Rogers says. BUT with all due respect: the birdhunters upright stance and the stance used in tactical work aren't the same. 'Specially after the organic fertilizer hits the fan. If'n you're wearing armor there isn't a shoulder pocket. If you're using Wolf Ears, make sure they clear the stock.

Gadgets-one of the bigger mistakes I've made was adding an extended magazine to my 11-87 Police. With a full mag and Sure-Fire attachment, you definately build muscles in building searches. Should have stayed with the 5 round mag (or found a lighter light mount-the Sure-Fire weighs a couple pounds), the extra weight could cost you your butt. Need to get in gear on this.

Back in the '80s Ithaca made a run of full choke 14" entry guns for an un-named agency. A few extras made it to the civvie market. According to the dealer, the transfer tax was only $5 'cause it was factory original.

WR Moore
Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 18:33:01 (ZULU)

Gents,

Ah, the shotgun...:-)

Many good threads on the subject. Lot's of operator comments. A good thing.

We issue Rem 870's at work. No complaints, but one. Stocks are to long. Especially, for those of smaller stature. We've shortened the stocks and qualification scores generally improved.

For LE use there is only one gauge...12. It's been well developed and specialty rounds abound. Bean Bag, sting ball, CS, flachette, and the list goes on. The only thing I haven't seen is a depleted uranium core round...and I'll bet it's been tried.

Personal favorites: Mossberg 590. A great gun and very underated. It's one of the few that have passed mil-spec testing. Holds 9 rounds and will even take the "evil" M-16 bayonet. Have had mine a decade and it has never failed me. Shortened the stock, added a side-saddle ammo carrier, and a sling. It's ready to go...

For reliability and pure "sex appeal" I have a Scattergun Tech 870 entry gun with a 14.5" barrel and Surefire tac light built into the forend. Brings new meaning to the old "you light up my life" strain.

Ammo: Federal Tactical, 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 Buck. Federal 2 3/4" slugs. Practice ammo is Seller and Bellot. Works nicely if you can abide the smell of burnt horse hair they use for wadding...;-)

I do not recommend use of birdshot. If you want smaller pellets go to #4 buck. I cannot recommend anything smaller.

Generally I carry my shotguns "cruiser ready" and top off if time allows. One rule I never break is to have two slugs in the side saddle carrier (rear 2) as "just in case" ammo.

Within it's limitations there is no finer weapon than the shotgun. It's versatile, puts a lot of energy on target, and can be stretched to a 100 yard gun with slugs and rifle sights.

For the ensconced defender it is Purrffeectt.

Just my .02 worth.

Semper Fi,

Sir Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 18:50:58 (ZULU)

Rick: I sent an analysis of the attack and potential "lessons learned" to someone who can make any changes that may be needed. I think I know exactly how they will do the next one. It's so basic an oversight on tactics that no one should think these dirtbags are too stupid to pick up on it. One elementary thing woulda made for a bad day had they done it. And no doubt, they figured it out already. Consider our current set obsolete--and that our previous success was "luck" and NOT skill. I also recommended the "what I'd do now" FWIW. There are many other ways to hold a wall; and anything is better than standing pat, IMHO. I raised my flags.

The arty's been firing all week here. Reminds me of counter-battery as I sleep (half awake sorting of inbound or outbound). Toured the new "training sites." We built a mini-Iraqi FOB. I almost felt at home as I toured the progress, especially in the Fest-Tents.

Bobby: I have a plaque--pieces and parts---that we put together for Bruce "over yonder." I finally found the brass inscription for it last week (some of my HHG stuff went everywhere but here). I'll ask LouAnn what she'd like to do with it---but, I'd also suggest we place it there. It's a thank-you from alot of warriors, done nicely. Bruce left us before I even recieved the first box of my stuff....and I've been left wondering what I should do with it now. If LouAnn is OK with it--I could bring it down in June.

Centered on an Oak board: Iraqi Bayonet inscribed: Captured by the 3d ID, Najaf, Iraq 04/03

Above the blade: Desert patches of 3ID, 82Abn, 101st Abn.

Left and right of the brass: 1st SF, MARDIV patch

inscribed, "from the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen of operation iraqi freedom...."

It's about 16x14...or so.

John, let's say you are witnessing a robbery in progress, and have a valid CCW and the sense to be using it. Let's say you just ride it out as no one is being hurt. BG has gun out. Let's say the next nanosecond all that changes. How will you spend the rest of your life? I dunno what the laws are in any given jurisdiction (just the few I need to know)--but, I do know that if someone puts a gun in another's face, very few other conditions need to be met before I'd rather shoot first. I'd have no problem fearing for my life and others at that moment.

Yote: I can see the look on the locals at the skeet club now; priceless. I'm going to try that on my 28" barrel. It hits low and left. I may, for humor purposes, apply the bend with a series of expletives, "can't hit $h1^ with this dang thing!!!!" as I lean into the barrel....I bet I stop all action cold!

Steve: That's it, adjusted for METT-T. I seem able to avoid trouble here at home just fine. Hard to prove a negative, but it worked when I needed it to elsewhere to. In Iraq, it was actually a pain in the butt looking for trouble. Nobody wanted to play when we wanted to. The guy who was hanging out on the corner decided he wasn't a terrorist today or sumptin. But you would be surprised how quickly "most" kids step off that mind set. Scared at first and they're all over it. Then, nothing ever happens and they're back on the block. We could use a whole bunch of squad leaders and company commanders with attitudes like yours! The good news is, little by little, we are getting such folks the hard way.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 18:59:19 (ZULU)

Ahem...... Shotguns are great where shotguns are needed...... Pistols are great where pistols are needed...M1 Tanks are great when they are needed...sniper rifles.........etc etc

I dont care what your profession..you will always need to adjust your tools to the job. A carpenter needs hammers, clamps, routers etc..A surgeon needs scaples, sutures, suction etc... God uses ministers, teachers, evangelists, prophets etc....

Get it?

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 20:23:47 (ZULU)

Major Joe

"The warrior spirit that is our new watch word in the military isn't new at all for alot of us---"

AMEN

I went to USMC boot camp in 1961 as a 17 year old. When I graduated

"The Warrior Sprit was well instilled.

Alto they called it "Spirt de Corp" it is the same concept

Semper FI

Bomac

USMC Ret.

Bomac
Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 01:09:01 (ZULU)

Major Joe sir,

Would be honored to display that plaque here, if it is alright with LouAnn. She is a sweetheart of a lady! Look forward to meeting you and Blake too Sir!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 01:43:16 (ZULU)

Gooch: You'd have to read about fifty or so of my recent posts, but you'd see that we are in complete agreement.

In a jungle or similar-tight terrain, the velcro would go. The scattergun was a mounted subsystem--if I dismount, I'd shave the weight (and my ruck would grow). Yep--adjust the tools...Iraq sent me off in a new direction in alot of ways.

Bobby, quit callin' me sir. Blake does that when I unload on him....and you are making wonder when I yelled at ya! :))

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 02:21:38 (ZULU)

Major Joe Sir,

Habits of NCO's are hard to break, we either called officers Sir's or Cur's depending on the respect held for that particular officer. You SIR have my respect!

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 02:46:01 (ZULU)

>>>Bobby, quit callin' me sir. Blake does that when I unload on him....and you are making wonder when I yelled at ya! :))<<<<

Sorry, Joe but you're gonna have to get used to it...like the rest of us. LOL.

Oh...and don't be surprised if you hear, "Are you mad at me yet?" more than once when you and Blake show up for your Basic class @ Badlands. Just a heads up, BTW ;))

Bobby,

Congratulations on the Bruce Robinson FTX. From all reports, it was quite the success...and no less challenging. Just one question. Did anybody serve up any Chili's? ;)))

BTW, I plan to make the Adv I class @ Badlands in Sept. Anybody here gonna be there?

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 02:53:08 (ZULU)

Lindy & Mr. Moore,

Yep, cell gets my vote first too. Thanks for the input. Had an interesting discussion with a local mall manager (former LE) who told me they were trained to never take a shot in a mall. Really? Never?! Never, like in when a guy is holding up the Starbucks and runs out without even a scream or a "stop that man!"... or never like when a crack-crazed, freakazoid is dumping a clip from his SKS because the pimple at the Fudge Hut dissed him the day before? Never? C`mon. Never don`t exist for me.I`ve NEVER been shot at (so far) but I`ll bet I won`t like it much. Bet I NEVER wish I had a means to protect myself cause I always will. I`ll be the quiet one over by the concrete planter ;)

Mr.Mahon,

<<We could use a whole bunch of squad leaders and company commanders with attitudes like yours! The good news is, little by little, we are getting such folks the hard way.>>

I saw they raised the age limit for the Guard and Reserve to 39 last week. I don`t think they`re going to take it to 44 any time soon. Unfortunately, the light came on for me too late. I do the best I can here and now. Thank you for your service. All of you.

Steve Racer
Dillsburg, PA, USA - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 06:49:11 (ZULU)

Accuracy International AE shooters, which scope mounts are you using? who has a Picatinny 20moa inclined rail for this rifle?

Brian you have one don't you?

Thanks in advance Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 12:26:13 (ZULU)

Major Sir,

I guess I've been partially influenced by the last string of bank h/u's we've had. 2 have been a well dressed (suit and tie) white male, middle 30's, showing no weawpon but professing to have one, to the teller, and is in and out quietly and quickly. I think it's a different scenario if the b/g has the gun in view and pressed up the nostril of the teller or a bank customer. That's all I meant. It's difficult to describe the emotions and mental judgements that would be made under those circumstances when those circumstances can and could be so varied. You're right though, if he shoots someone goin thru the door on his way out, I'll have trouble livin with yet another flawed decision in my life. One recent robbery was accomplished with a CO2 pistol that resembled a 92F. I wouldn't wanna use to broad a brush when saying this but I think "most" B/G's don't have the intention of killing in the midst of a robbery and the ones that do will do so quickly and effortlessly early on in the process. It's a decision I hope I never have to make.

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 12:32:14 (ZULU)

Pete - U.S. Optics makes a base for an AI AE with a 20 MOA slant. They might custom run you one with more if you need it for an S&B. I prefer Badger, but they don't make one.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 12:46:35 (ZULU)

okay dudes.

Bobby and I been talking. Heres the deal.

I am looking at teaching a few courses for him out there. I aint nuttin special but have a few things to pass on still. I think with me, Steve and Bobby working together we can put together some training packages that would out do even the "Big names".

If you are interested let Bobby know. I can start running courses as soon as we get names and Bobby and I can work out the schedule. Besides I kinda took a hankerin to Grandfield. WHich is strange if you ever been there....But I like them kind of places...

I envision a police sniper course (POST certified of course) as well as what I call practical precision rifle courses as well as field skill courses. IE Land navigation, survival etc. Pass it around to your friends and some of the other websites and see what happens. I have access to some pretty high speed training aids through Beamhit still and think that I can take you some places you aint been yet.

Pray for all the saints.

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Wednesday, April 6, 2005, at 19:01:08 (ZULU)

Gooch there are no bigger names in sniping than you and Steve. Sign my old ass up for the first class. Your the best Instructor I have ever learned from. Get a scedule and send to me so I can put up on Tactical Intervention as recommended training site.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 02:13:05 (ZULU)

Hello all. Been at Sniperweek in Tampa. Fun.

Missed Bruce's match .... Hugs Child Bride. Hey LA, does the mildot master have an NSN (National Stock Number)? Trying to kick some business to you via my gig.

PETE: GGG makes one. Quality unk.

I may be going with a McCann rail or one of Marty's for my city stick as we may be getting some new NV (MUNS) via Homeland Security.

brian k. sain
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 02:17:27 (ZULU)

GOOCH WROTE:

God uses ministers, teachers, evangelists, prophets etc....

I might add ... snipers.

Romans 13: 1-4

brian k. sain
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 02:31:50 (ZULU)

>>>>God uses ministers, teachers, evangelists, prophets etc....

I might add ... snipers. Romans 13: 1-4 <<<<<<<<<<

Indeed.

To read this in the King James is NOT so clear but when you read it in the NIV...it becomes very clear:

Romans 13:

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

---

If I offended anybody for quoting the Bible.....TOUGH!!

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 03:47:00 (ZULU)

>>>To read this in the King James is NOT so clear but when you read it in the NIV...it becomes very clear:<<<

Mk4, not sure what the "NIV" is; nor do I have a problem with your quoting the Bible.

But, the "NIV" appears to be some "man's" intrepretation OF the Bible. If 'authority' is to be feared as being given only by God,

>>>2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.<<<

shouldn't we have obeyed Hitler?, Stalin?, etc...? What about the "Second Amendment" to our own Constitution?

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, US of A!!!!!! - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 04:24:10 (ZULU)

Mr. Moore that Lohman # is 240 if I didn't misread it. Left my glasses at the Drs. ofc and had to drive across town to get em. And it's quite true, Enough body armor will defeat even the finest shotgunner. So true. The shotgun is a great 35 yard and down weapon any way it comes. I was picking up some off the rack today at a big dealer that lets me fondle them. That one shoots right... that one shoots high.... that one left and so on. My wife says. "How do you know that?" "It's just a guess...".sezme "How can I explain that?"

And as for #4 buck.... that's a good thing Martha.

We were shooting a hostage simulation course laid out for pistoleros, A rifles and MG's ... They left one with 2" of bg's head visable. Most shotgunners skipped the target and lost the points.... machine gunners and pistolers were having a field day. From about 10' I decided to try it and took out one side of the BG's head without touching the hostage. Even a blind shotgunner gets lucky once in a while. Would I have done that in a real life situation. If it came at me fast enough I might have. Oh yeah, the load was 3" Magnum # 4 Buck.

Brogers
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 04:37:14 (ZULU)

Was a pleasure to meet everyone and take some pictures of the Mission:Badlands / Bruce Robinson Memorial Match. Got to remeet friends (as well as make some new ones).

LouAnn seemed to think the plaque, words, and event fitting - which makes it a good memorial in my mind (I never got to meet Bruce).

Thanks to all the competitors, staff, and aggressors for making that a great match. It's easy to learn things at an event like that one, even if you're just taking pictures.

John L
Mid, MO, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 04:42:23 (ZULU)

>>>>But, the "NIV" appears to be some "man's" intrepretation OF the Bible. If 'authority' is to be feared as being given only by God<<<

Larry,

NIV stands for "New International Version" and is quite popular. Its interpretation comes from the Hebrew and Greek just like the King James. Since nobody speaks in Elizabathean English anymore, its more easily understood.

>>>> shouldn't we have obeyed Hitler?, Stalin?, etc...? <<<<<

The short answer is "no." The governments that these represent did not honor God's Word which is the gospel, in any form, so any scripture concerning government in the cases you site, was mostly non-existent with the exception of judgement (and that came didn't it?). The United States and its Constitution WERE founded on God's Word and to a large degree still is. Romans 13:1-5 speak of God's servants (which in my opinion) is our Law Enforcement and Military. THEY do keep the peace and as you can see in the United States, these scriptures do apply and have done so very well.

Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

That's us. We're in the Peacemaking business.

>>> Mr. Gooch said: "If you are interested let Bobby know." <<<<<

Bobby, I'm interested.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 05:39:07 (ZULU)

Even my 11 yr old son ask fewer questions w/ the NIV Bible. The Church gave him one.

Bobby, Gooch,

I'd love it. I'm in.

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 13:22:15 (ZULU)

Any bible is ink on paper. Its like a databook. Pray to God not to men to interpret it for you. God may lead you to conclude one thing and someone else to conclude sumpin else. He's the best observer/spotter in the universe and may want you to take a shot in a unique way that gets you center mass that wouldnt be on paper with someone else. The enemy causes us to argue about foo foo and listen to our own voice and advice. Like some of you are starting to do here. Chill and trust the big observer in the sky, let him interpret the databook and call the shots. He has the 100mm Unertl team scope and all we have is a fixed 10x. (can ya'll tell how He is teaching me these days? ;-) )

Okay....I'll get with Bobby and schedule sumpin.

Out

Gooch
Mount Ida, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 16:24:58 (ZULU)

KEWL GUY STUFF AUCTION to benefit AmericanSnipers.org - have a look.

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/sniper.htm

Some kewl guy rifles in the pipe as well down the road.

Didn't mean to start Bible Country ...

brian k. sain
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 16:39:16 (ZULU)

Comment..(where I should never go)...Could we observe that to advocate that God did not approve of authority at that time (time of Romans 13) would have meant the early demise on said cross of whomever would be so bold. Perhaps there may have been politics at work here. It is hard to imagine a time in history including the present when Politics is not a factor.

Brogers
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 16:53:16 (ZULU)

MK4: If it says, "thou shall not murder" then we're onto something...

Gooch: Time is my enemy, as usual. I'm working an angle on "how I spent my summer vacation..." (the answer being, "armed to the teeth")--the angle being departure AFTER June 19th or so, to preserve any chance of getting to the badlands w/ my son. I will succeed in the dates, if I go at all--but then, I'm out of the net for a few months. Count me in if ya do this annually, say next year...

Yep; I jes' have to get those spare months to finish off an impressive rack of overseas service bars...heheh. NOT. It's actually one of those old adages: "who would you want to go to war with?" Well, as unlikely as it is, I have had (and offered again) the rare opportunity to make those kind of choices. It's one of those things--"they" are looking for a volunteer, and I've been asked to be that volunteer. It's hard to take that as a choice, for a variety of reasons. I already said yes, back when it was hypothetical. Now, it is really up to DA...because the rest has come to pass. I dunno how the TCS thing will play out up there...

If I get orders, it sorta helps out on my decision to retire---by taking it clean off the table for a bit!

BKS: That marquette kerfuffle really kept your organization in the press up here in WI. How has it played out in terms of donations? I hope it had a good effect on you all---there's a certain irony in that. Heheh.

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 18:37:26 (ZULU)

>>>>>MK4: If it says, "thou shall not murder" then we're onto something...<<<<<

You're right Joe.

That's actually what the original Hebrew says:

There are places where the translators from Hebrew to English got it wrong. This is one instance.

The Hebrew word for "kill" in Thou Shalt Not "Kill" in Exodus 20:13 is: raw-tsakh’

Strongs defines raw-tsakh’ as: properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

So, actually it does say, "Thou Shalt Not Murder."

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 19:13:08 (ZULU)

That is an important distinction, in my line of work. Ha. You've heard me gettin' on about my liberal in-laws (pops is coming around nicely though). I get that, "how can you (support, participate, be in favor of, etc) this war with your so-caled christian beliefs?" And that mis-translation is about as deep as they can venture into the good book for their points. Bah, humbug. Murder and killing are two different things, but, a quote i shared with Bravo comes into mind:

"There are those who believe that a new modernity demands a new morality. What they fail to consider is the harsh reality that there is no such thing as a new morality. There is only one morality. All else is immorality." --Theodore Roosevelt

(think about this, when it was penned, and what that means in view of similar concerns today---hope spring eternal, and we haven't collapsed into a secular morass yet, have we? Good men still rise, and sheep still bay for excuses for their behavior)

How can one argue morality with those whose morality "evolves" with the times? I just give them the short answer and the "look of great disdain." One fella, loosely related, used to furiously sort thru papers trying to refute my arguments I make from memory--pissed him off that my "facts" squared with his numbers too. "Used to" means that I ain't seen much of him since that little fire incident. Who knew he would fly so well and so far? And no, I don't miss him much either...

edited to add: Loosely related topic: Where do you draw your courage to pull the trigger when the time comes? To me, faith discussions are on "topic."

Joe Mahon
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 20:37:55 (ZULU)

I think I saw a UFO last night

It was not yet Miller time and I was sitting on my deck with my dog about 5:30. The sun was up still, about an hour of light left. I live in a part of New Jersey close to the coast where the military cargo jets etc... fly over my neck of the woods from McGuire Air Force Base.

I was watching the vapor trails from the jets, they were really flying high. Extremely high. There was about 6 or 7 of them coming. At around the 4th one, I'm looking at the vapor trail and I see a round dark object moving behind the vapor trail (meaning above). Not moving in a straight line. It passed behind the vapor trail a couple if times. Not a cloud in the sky. So I'm watching real carefully and it just dissapears. Again I stress it was not yet Miller time.

My question to you military guys out there... wouldn't someting flying above the jets have to leave their own vapor trail? Like I said it was definately round so it wasn't a stealth bomber or anything like that.

The more I think about it I really think it was very odd.

Doug

doug sickels
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 21:00:42 (ZULU)

Doug: perhaps you saw my scrawny brother in law, although I am pretty sure he landed in that firepit...and it "was" miller time. My great look of disdain and his load of liquid courage made him charge towards me (my back to the fire) and an old reflex launched him....hmmm, maybe it was him...heheh.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 22:14:29 (ZULU)

JOE M: Those kids getting shut down raised close to 30 maybe 35 THOUSAND dollars. But ... it is long gone. We are hurting some now.

Currently supporting snipers in 143 Platoons and have had an even 40 platoons return Stateside as of today / PM.

Can use all of the help we can get ... SAGE stocks, M14 mags, Leica rangefinders, Kestrels and Loopy spotters with dots are killing us. Buying every one we can afford.

Last week I sent a Leica 1200 to the MC S/S/S in Hawaii because they have NONE to teach with. All of them are going forward or to the Arty guys and FAC.

Spread the word to your email lists guys and the other forums and please ask them to do the same.

Every little bit helps. Wish I was filthy rich ... I'd fix this sniper stuff.

brian k. sain
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 22:23:51 (ZULU)

BKS, that is 48 rifle companies, or 9 battalions, or an entire division's worth of warfighters...that is: impressive as all get-up!

wazzit Enrico Fermi who asked, "what hath God wrought?"

I'd say a great thing, by way of a small, dedicated group of Americans...

Now the teaser:

Yer gunna be a Legend, yer gunna be a legend, yer gunna be a legend...

and there ain't squat you can do about it.

hey Rick---sort of like that "Batman" story of the early eighties, eh? I'm LMAO; youz guys need to scour the archives to get the joke!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 22:47:37 (ZULU)

Brian,

What is happening to the gear you are getting these dudes when they return? Maybe you could "ask" that they return it for redistribution when they return conus. I would venture to say that a large percentage of stuff is going home with snipers upon discharge when it could be returned for others to use.

JUST AN IDEA HERE. Get with the division sniper schools. Maybe they could be your source of distribution and get the stuff back....I dunno... Think it over. Accountability is the main reason for the way the supply system is setup the way it is and also the main reason it is so hard to work with and so slow....

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 22:59:15 (ZULU)

No,No Major Joe your quoting Samuel Mores and his first Telegraphic message.LOL ie. .-.. --- .-..

"There are two possible outcomes: If the result confirms the hypothesis,

then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary

to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery."

—Enrico Fermi

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Thursday, April 7, 2005, at 23:50:44 (ZULU)

About the UFO

Is your brother in law dark & round and have sparks flying off his ass? Joe, seriously, wouldn't something have to leave a vapor trail at that altitude? I mean anything that your aware of? This is bugging me, its the first time I've seen something like this. Then again. It was round and it wasn't flying straight, so it discounts any aircraft I've ever heard of.

Brian: I've given the extra stuff I had, is there a place to send money?

Doug

doug sickels
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 00:10:16 (ZULU)

Joisey,

you're right, I brainfarted; I was zeroing in on Oppenhiemer (right fifty, add fifty, FFE) and then again, it was a Hindu quote (hmmm, biblical proximity?---ooops-that round went unobserved!): "Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of worlds." Talk about crossed wires (and ironic discoveries).

-... - .- .-.

Doug, no idea what it could be. I've only seen one thing in my life that defies all known logic---and I married it on the spot. (there I go again...) Seriously, I joke only because I have nothin' else to offer. If a man-made object is flying at the same speed and altitude, then it should do like the others do regarding vapor...

Joe Mahon
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 00:13:54 (ZULU)

Joe,Your on the Glide Path now !!!!

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US od A - Friday, April 8, 2005, at 01:01:55 (ZULU)

I just had to chime in on the whole morality / God thing.

.....just do the right thing, and don't even begin to try and claim you don't know right from wrong... that's what that thing between your ears is there for....

If you want to argue, fight over how it got there (or who put it there)...

medicjim
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 01:29:50 (ZULU)

Too many people confused that morality is synomanous with Religion has led to many folk assuming there would be no morality if there be no religion to pass judgement on what morality be. Thus even the wisest of Judges avoid passing judgement on that subject and leave it up to Zealots and advocates of special interest.(advocates; That would be Politicians calling themselves law makers/ Religious leaders claiming devine guidance.)

Doug; If it wasn't a black Helicopter.... then I have no suggestion. If it was a black Helicopter you are best advised to forget about it.

Brogers
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 03:35:12 (ZULU)

JOE: We may have 3 snipers (or DMs) in a platoon or 23 ... we just never know.

GOOCH: The beauty of this thing is that I don't have to answer to anyone except the guys helping me, Bruce Robinson and the IRS. However, that is also a two way street. No one answers to me either and there is no way to hold anyone accountable unless they are lying about their MOS to get the gear in the first place. Even then it's a long way to Iraq/A'stan to get in their ass.

We have had a few guys abuse the charitable nature of our little program and we are looking into those instances as well. Wanna make sure we are right before we take action as they are still over there in a war zone. May be only as much as a subtle request for their CO to get the gear to the shooters who actually go outside of the wire. It actually kind of polices itself ... The snipers/DMs get pissed when these other guys get gear meant for them through us and they will call the posers on it! ... isolated incidents these.

As far as the gear proper goes ... Many guys turn it over to the guys coming behind them. We have had many, many cases where this is what happened and this is usually the case with the experienced B4s and 8541s. They take care of each other .... inter-service rivalries aside. We have had SF give to Marines give to Army give to Navy give to N/G and right down the line ... ole sniper brotherhood thing at it's finest.

If a guy comes home and knows he will be going right back in a few months ... he may as well keep the gear or we'll just have to buy it for him again. We have no prob at all with this.

And lastly ... if some guy survives 12 months of VBIEDs in theater ... and he manages to get back home to Montana with all of his limbs and an "adopted" Leica 1200 in his pack that helps him bag a big elk ... then I believe we've all done our duty.

brian k. sain
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 03:37:56 (ZULU)

I need some help, I have a GAP rifle with a 24" Mike Rock barrel in 300WM 1:11 twist. I need a starting point to shoot Berger 210 Moly using RL-22 or whatever?

Thanks,

BearMan

BearMan
Indy, Indiana, U.S.A.! - Friday, April 8, 2005, at 04:30:45 (ZULU)

(Vacationing in mostly sunny Orlando, FL)

re: UFO's and contrails

If a flying body was moving at subsonic speed and *not* using a fuel-burning based propulsion system, it would probably not leave a contrail. The aircraft you're familiar with all burn some kind of fuel and exhaust to the trailing air.

(If I'm wrong then I expect someone will chime in with the correct answer. Either way, you'll get a better insight into your mystery.)

I read a lot about the UFO phenomena while in my teens. Too many observations by good observers to just dismiss out-of-hand. We're probably going to eventually find out about one or more very strange physical processes. Just remember that at one time science "knew" that rocks didn't fall from the sky. Today we call them meteorites.

Rod Regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Friday, April 8, 2005, at 12:34:24 (ZULU)

Doug due to the low angle of the sun and the time of day. Could the object have been a Satellite much higher than the aircraft and no vapor trail. The dark look could have been caused by no light on that side and if the atmosphere was very thin it would appear black I would think. If it was indeed moving other than a straight line it is unlikely but due to the movement of the earth against the background of the aircraft and the difference in altitude (as opposed to the aircraft) it might appear to be moving other than a straight line. Was the movement appearing to be from NW to SE? Most satellites appear to be very bright objects around sunset as a rule but certain directions might keep them aligned with the shadow toward you. What was the angle of declination to the object would you say?

Brogers
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 14:24:32 (ZULU)

Brogers

This actually crossed across the path of the vapor trail twice. It must have been big too. It was behind the jet like I said and was maybe twice the diameter of the jets fuselage. I was watching very carefully at this point and it just vanished. Like I said not a cloud in the sky. In my 51 years I've never seen something like this. And it just nags me because it just defied logic. It only lasted about 10 seconds but it just confounds me. When I think about the implications I'm more than astounded. Everyone sees movies and hears stories but to see somthing like this that you just can't explain away... I don't know

Thanks for not ripping me apart on this

As far as the angle it was almost straight up (above me)

Doug

I won't beat this to death here but I wanted to share it somewhere

doug sickels
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 14:45:37 (ZULU)

Hey Guys...

Hope everyone is doing well..No bad news is definitely good news..

Shotguns for defense...What a wonderful tool. I still carry a model 37 on my deck lid..I dont have to get it out very often, but I know its there when I need it..

God, Morals, the bible...I believe there is a higher power..I believe that people have tried to interprett the word..Not much you can say about religion, morals, and all that without sparking a Debate..and I agree..Religion and Morals dont necessarily fall in suit together...Just my thinkin..

Con-Trails and UFO's///Im really lost here..lol..

Gooch...Did you get any bad weather down in your part of the state...I know its been miserable for the last few days...North East section is about to float..ha ha ha

Everyone take care..Hope to talk to you all again soon..

G. Ivey
Newport, Arkansas, USA - Friday, April 8, 2005, at 15:46:11 (ZULU)

Wern't a Sat. Doug. would be my conclusion. I've never seen any kind of UFO except once. Didn't realize what it was until years later when I saw reference to the one I'd seen in a book with same time and date and place. I had 4 witnesses with me but all too drunk to testify at 3 am. I was the only one not drinking (if you can believe that) but anyway Been laughed at for a lot of things. I'm used to it.

Brogers
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 16:13:41 (ZULU)

At one time, both myself and my father spotted a UFO. We stared at it for a moderately long time, until it decided to leave. It was silver / reflective, kind of oblong, and just hovered very high in the air. After a while, curiousity got the best of us, he called it in. The statement he got was that plenty of other people had already called in that same weather balloon. The line tethering it had broke.

Just because you saw something doesn't make you any less correct in what you saw. Neither does it mean that we're about to play host to the grays. There's an explanation for it, and good luck figuring it out.

There was some creature in the woods one night, moving slowly and making noise. General outline was seen by myself and my friend. In the time it took to walk 5 feet, grab a flashlight, and head the 5 feet back, it disappeared silently and completely. I'll never know what it was, and part of me thinks "should have shot it just so I could have seen what it was", but an idiot buddy of said friend did such at a different time, and whacked a ring tailed cat in south Texas that had been thought extinct in the area for several decades........ so I don't do that kind of thing LOL! What was it? We'll never know.

Morality and religion.... how about a metaphor (I won't go into parable ;-)) God has the law, and neither God nor his law changes. Or, to spout from memory, the heavens and earth will pass away, but He will not change. The analogy would be the ocean bottom. Morality is like a ship, on the open waters. Morality can change under different circumstances. I'm sure we'll agree that the most egregious examples of morality agree with Jim's statement that everyone basically knows right and wrong, but sometimes perceptions change due to other factors. E.G. what happened between Moses and Jesus. Religion, then, could be considered the anchor joining the ship with the ocean bottom, keeping our morals "stationary" with respect to God. Problem: God made man, man made religion. There will never be a religion that replaces your personal relationship with God, although some try. Solution: we have the word. Depending on it, and seeking a church that espouces the word and not someone's opinion, will keep that anchor chain from rusting in two.

If this ain't my first "religion country" sentient post, I've forgotten the other one! HA!

Bravo
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 19:21:20 (ZULU)

Bravo: I'll have to think about that some before I go after it. Morality "shifting" is true enough, I think...whereas right and wrong don't shift nearly as much. At least, at some basic levels. Life is like a quadratic equation--it's easy; once you take it down to the lowest common demoninators. Like the plague of "issues" that i sum up with "Ego." I like that. Morality and right/wrong is a bit tougher...modeling the problem should occupy my brain for a few weeks. If I keep this up, I won't grow up to be Ol' Painless; I'll grow up to be Socrates. Heheh. Ah, to hell with growing up....the process is much more fun in itself!

UFOs: I was waiting for a flight of Tornados to do a mock run in Belgium. 15 minutes early, I spotted a lone plane low on the horizon. Very un-British to be that early, ya know? I couldn't ID the thing, and it was cooking. All at once, it did a reversal that woulda killed a pilot in G forces and was "gone." The brits came and that was that....but I still have no idea what I was looking at or even if i really saw anything in the first place. It was weird. I do not "judge" these things or think ill of anyone with similar stories...I just poke fun at ya because, well, what else is there to do? Heheh.

Sunny, negligable winds, warmmmmmmm, with plenty of open spaces....if I can't get a stick on the mats this weekend---I am a loser!

Joe m

Joe Mahon
Friday, April 8, 2005, at 20:42:08 (ZULU)

I don't know Joe, sounds like it was a UBIL (unidentified brother in law)!

Brian: Too bad Bill Gates couldn't cough up a few extra to help your cause out. I thought maybe writing him a letter and telling about the situation might help, but then I thought that a geek like him wouldn't understand the situation. He was probley a Kerry supporter anyway.

Best Wishes

Doug

Joe: A long time ago I remember, I think, there was a link here of yours, and there was a picture of you in a Hawaian shirt and a hat. Does my memory serve me correctly?

doug sickels
Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 01:18:13 (ZULU)

Is your ghillie this good?

(click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 03:07:46 (ZULU)

Mike; sent you e-mail no attachments. Apr 12.

Brogers
Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 03:19:28 (ZULU)

Religion/Mortality.....Devil is said to be lurking in the details.

Brogers
Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 03:20:11 (ZULU)

Joe...

Well said..and Im like you..If I am not on the range this weekend..someone needs to check my temp..Weather is really comin around.. But it always does when I have to work..Check back with me Tuesday and Wednesday of next week..thats my days off..See how hard its rainin here..lol

Bravo..

I totally agree with ya..

MK4

Great video...Dont ya wish the Realtree folks could come out with somethin like that..( Octoflage ) hmmmmm..

Saw a Bumper sticker today..it read.." Its not called Gun Control, its called Parenting".. Real nice guy had it on his truck..He was speeding a bit. But after reading that and speaking with him..A contact and a warning were enough..

Have a great weekend everyone..Im getting out of here and going out to bait lines and enjoy the night air..

God Bless..

G. Ivey
Newport, Arkansas, USA - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 04:44:10 (ZULU)

Joe,

Talking about "G" forces on a pilot reminded me of an event I witnessed in the early hours of 31 Jan, 1968 in Pleiku, Vietnam. The NVA were working their way around the city in a direction of a POW camp where about 4000 VC and NVA prisoners were kept. At least that seemed the case from where I watched, having no radio comunications. Our guys were in the process of kicking Chuck's ass, and all sorts of aircraft were being imployed in the effort.

As I watched, I saw a set of running lights come in high above the action. I say high because the engagement was a few miles away and I had to look up pretty high to see the lights coming in. Word was that it was an F-4. As the lights crossed the sky, it suddenly dived within a degree or two of 90 straight down to a point very low in the horizon at which point it turned suddenly and started back up at about the same angle. There was a ground flash below as the aircraft returned back to nearly the same altitude.

All these years I could never imagine how a human being could withstand those kind of G forces, but I witnessed it that night with very sober eyes. For those who don't know, that was the begining of the '68 Tet Offensive. I wouldn't have thought at the very least, that the aircraft could take those G forces. It's one of the things I remember about that time, just thought I'd share it.

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 05:36:30 (ZULU)

We finaly the German Authorities got around to sending the paperwork.

As of yesterday I am legaly registered in the Federal Republic of Germany as a Weapons and Ammunitions Manufacturer and as a Weapons and Ammunition Dealer.

Damn if that didn't take over a year from start to finnish.. best i get the ale in eh guys !!

Pete

Peter Lincoln
Germany - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 13:08:35 (ZULU)

Doug, probably not--the only hat I've ever worn in my life was "issued" to me. Hawaiian shirt---that was possible, as I lived there a few years--but hat? Not me! Someone did google up a shot of me in a volleyball tourny taken back in 97 or so. And if you knew what I looked like in the first place, you might pick me outta Class 1-87 Ranger picture (these are posted in high quality, if anyone is interested in a copy of their class photo...many, many years worth).

The UBiL incident...it is like it never happened in the family gatherings (absent of course, the UBiL himself)---just as well; but I do like that acronym and I'm stealing it. Dude has a violent streak and is a bully (I asked him to "never" go there with me several times)---and, I suspect strongly, he is a wife beater...not a wink of sleep was lost. I also suspect a few in the family wished I hadn't pulled him out too, though no one mentions it. Heheh.

Lazy boy is still in rack...time to toss him on the floor and set up some targets!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 16:06:07 (ZULU)

Congratulation Peter!

German paperwork is a nightmare.

Speaking of Germans. April 9. is invasionday in Norway. The Germans invaded us april 9. 1940. After a shootinsession today I took a walk in the nearby woods to a memoreal only 500m from the range. At this place 3 women and 4 men were executed as hostages in 1944. Made me remember the old king's motto: "Never again!". Vent back to the range and blasted away with my HK91.

Tor

Torf
Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 17:16:17 (ZULU)

Pete L- Congrats on being an official German Gun Nut =) Jim and I are still relating IWA incidents, we had a great time.. you're a good host.

Shotguns- I am a rifle guy all the way. However I will never give up my 870. We have a big boss at work that called the shotgun antiquainted and useless in law enforcement. He planned on taking away all the shotguns and replacing them with pool rifles. His idea went over like a lead balloon across the board. Even the non-shooters thought he was nuts and there were some that wanted no part of a rifle at all. Overall he abandoned that idea and we kept the shotguns in the cars with rifles issued to appropriate officers. The versatility of the SG is awsome (bean bags to slugs). I do agree that our 870's (Wilson combats with 14" bbls, side saddles and surefire lights) should have a shorter pull. We tried a couple shorter Speedfeed tactical stocks and got good feed back across the board from big and small alike. We'll be budgeting to put these stocks on all the shotguns next year.

Religion- I have a family friend that was a navy corpsman with a marine unit in VN. He told me of one patrol when a chaplin decided to to tag along. At first he was thought to be a burden. Then in a fire fight the 60 gunner was hit. The chaplin and corpsman both went to him and the Chaplin helped pull the gunner out of the line of fire then went back to the 60 and started lying a base of covering fire. Later when asked about the "thou shall not kill" thing the chaplin told them about the mistake and it was "thou shall not murder". The Chaplin added a statment about not letting anybody hurt his grunts. After that every patrol wanted to know if "Chappy" was going with them.

Well I spent the last week trainig rifle shooters. Mon-Wed in a basic patrol rifle operator class. It always good to see someone go from never touched an AR to being comfortable taking one into the field. Thu was a rifle traiing/qual. We had a team course and we had to run with them while they went from station to station. I'll tell you running back and forth on the 200 yard range about 30 of 40 times will tear up the knees. God bless the jaquzzi.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kali, US of A - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 17:47:14 (ZULU)

Re: Bruce Robinson

A fitting tribute. I understand that this monument was laid at the Unknown Distance Range.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

http://www.badlandstactical.net/DSC_63.jpg

(or click on my name)

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 18:27:59 (ZULU)

Short range trip on Monday morning with Sarge produced some data for the 77 smk / 2.250" OAL / Rem 7.5 primer / WCC brass / 24.5 Tac handload.

yds elev (moa)

100 0

200 2.25

300 5

400 8

500 11.75

600 15.5

700 20.75

800 29

900 36.25

1000 44.25

Infinity prediction data was a little pessimistic, as it listed 50.27 moa @ 1k. Either that, or I am actually getting a little bit more velocity than the 2650 fps I fed into the program.

Quite a trip getting hits on the 1000 yard maiden with a 16" mag-fed AR-15. Wouldn't have knocked over a rhino, but wouldn't increase someone's health, either.

Just glad I had a witness to the 1k hits; wind was atrocious at that range, but I never really expect to use it out that far. Just wanted to try it and collect the data.

John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 19:55:51 (ZULU)

Speaking of Badlands, and Bruce Robinson, and 1k ranges, etc. : I took some photos this time out, since I was not in shape to run with the big dogs.

There are plenty more of the photos, and I will post them up as soon as I get them as well.

Using new camera gear is not a good idea at such a major match, but the photos are up at

http://leveron.com/gallery/Mission:Badlands-BruceRobinsonMemorialMatch

or click my name below. Edited to also add the official pictures, up at http://www.badlandstactical.net/mission1.htm

John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 20:02:26 (ZULU)

Have I missed some posts! Now bible country. Think I will stay out of that one. That is worse than politics for getting the juices flowing.

Bobby sounds like you did it up right. Kevin congrates on a good showing.

Acehigh - You mentioned a CO2 gun that resembled a pistol. Put that out of your mind. While you are trying to figure out if it is a real pistol or not someone could be dead and it may be you. If the idiot wants to act like he is armed then it must be assumed that he is armed. If he points that thing at me and he is dead. No thinking, no quibbling, (Major, remember that word?), just fact. I have seen enough dead due to that monments hesitation.

Gooch - Good talking to you on the phone man! Hey, let me know when you are thinking of running one and maybe I can come by and harrass you while you are teaching. :)

Joe - Actually the original Batman story came from the mid 70s, Mindenhall or Skulthorpe, can't remember which. I never understood why the guy would admit it in the first place. IT was when we were condemned to the hangars as our sleepig hooch back then. It is like the Energizer Bunny. It just keeps on going. :)

Shiva Joe?

Brian - If you ever have an SF guy screw you on this program, let me know. I will insure that he has a very bad year.

Doug - No way I would rip you for sighting a UFO. Hell I firmly believe in the little suckers.

Bravo - I know you aren't talking about sound shooting are you. I mean what if it was a lost kid or your pet dog? :)

Mk4 - I WISH my ghillie was that good!

Well enough for today, have to get back to yard work before momma kills me, again. :)

Hold hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 20:22:16 (ZULU)

Hey Gooch,

Been trying to reply to emails that you have sent, but they keep bouncing back as "undeliverable". Will try to call you Monday or Tuesday evening in reference to the emails.

Rick,

Thank you sir!

You should come out for next years and bring some teams with you. Going to run next year's a little different.

Mk4,

I chose the west UKD range as the spot for the monument, due to the fact that there is actually 2 UKD ranges there and the monument splits the firing line between the ranges. Not to mention the fact that the monument overlooks the valley and a little pond, that always has ducks, etc, on it. Mrs. Robinson said I picked the perfect spot,and that is all that matters to me.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, Ok, USA - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 22:48:44 (ZULU)

Greetings brothers....

Joe S. and I just ran our rifle operators thru a qual the other day. This time around we were testing some of that Natec ammo (.223 FMJBT) thru our M16A1's. It's light weight and I was optimistic about performance.

About 50-60 rounds later, the polymer cases couldn't take the heat and we started having rounds separate from the cases, and the cases melting and becoming lodged in the bore or clogging up the locking lugs. It was a mess, and with Joe and I trying to get over some colds, it really slowed things down for all of us. We shot pretty much all we had of the stuff just to give it a "fair shot" so to speak.

Anyone else tried the stuff? Joe, I'll see you back at the ranch next week.....

cmoore....

out....

cmoore
Dago, Cali, USA - Saturday, April 9, 2005, at 22:54:58 (ZULU)

Master Rick says "Bravo - I know you aren't talking about sound shooting are you. I mean what if it was a lost kid or your pet dog? :)"

No Sir, I'm not talking about shooting at sound. I wouldn't do that. Both my buddy and I had been observing "it" for a pretty good while. We were in the outback a long, long ways, and were quite alone. I know so because we were "accosted" by the S&R, and they told us so (those guys need to either ID themselves or ride black and white horses). Whatever it was, it liked to be just far enough away from the campfire to keep us from ID'ing it, but here's the generals:

Roughly 2 to 2.5 feet tall, roughly 6 feet long. Very "sleek" in shape, tapered sharply towards the front, and long towards the tail, like the kind of curve we all wish we got on grades in school. Moved very slowly, and made noise. At least until it decided to disappear.

The first thought was "monster porky-pine", but I'd never seen one that large. Wouldn't have surprised me in that part of the world. Whatever it was didn't mind snow, we got snowed on every night.....

It wasn't that we couldn't see it, we just couldn't positively ID the thing. Curiousity is all. After it evaporated, we both looked all over everywhere (trees included, we knew porky-pines walk straight up trees), it had literally disappeared. It was a pretty good 30 yard walk to the tree line as well.

Trivia: the instructor I had for survival 2 let the group know without doubt that even if you're in the worst of situation, it's best to not take down porky-pine for dinner. The diseases they typically carry are legion.

On the memorial for Bruce, I like it. Would have done him proud. Even looks like the pic we had out there, except he wasn't drinking one of my beers...... There was a man that deserved a memorial.

Mr. Moore, there's a difference in the lines on the PCA Spectrum ammo. There's the military grade and commercial grade. If you got something other than white, it was commercial grade. The walls on it are reportedly thicker, and the seals are improved. Such was required IIRC to facilitate belt usage........ Thanks for the review though, you just saved me some dough on a half case of commercial stuff ;-)

Bravo
Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 01:38:09 (ZULU)

Some of you may recall, apprx two months ago I was on here asking for advice on flashlights.... I finally completed my research and spent my money ($30)... click on my name to see what I bought

medicjim
Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 02:58:04 (ZULU)

Hey Pete, did my email get to you?

Tony Burkes
ALVIN, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICAA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 03:35:18 (ZULU)

Bobby W,

Heard a lot of good things about the Bruce Robinson match. Sounds like the match was a BLAST. To bad I missed it. It would have been great to see you, Steve and Gooch. I will be seeing you again at the SniperQuest match.

John L, Great pictures. I went to the link that had the pictures. Looks like you took quite a few pictures.

Gooch, drop me a line when you get a chance. I e-mailed you this week.

SFCPete Carpentier JR TXNG
C.C., TX, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 04:52:19 (ZULU)

Don't worry about the Bible thread Rick. I got the Devils permission to play your part. IT's all taken care of.

Sound shooting indeed.....:)

Bravo, Anyway your creature sounds like a Tasmanian devil to me!...

Rick you knew it was a Tasmanian devil all along didn't you?

Anyhow was huntin Elk up above Creed one time when ran into some young Texans about sundown. "Seen anything I asked?" "Naw but I got a couple sound shots is all." "oh yeah, where you old boys gonna hunt tomorrow?"

Brogers
Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 05:10:31 (ZULU)

Rick, you impress me as always. Yep, that would be the "prince" at the root of the quote...Skulthorpe, whatta pit! Remember the gate, where all the local ladies would gather to find escorts to the club? Them chippies were well fed, eh? Mildenhall: Got the BEQ one year coming out of Denmark...hit the base at about 0400, showered, and just fell on the rack as-is. Woke up about 0700 with a young lass standing there wondering what to do (I had ideas...). Maid service. Only in the airforce, man! Beat the hell out of the hanger life.

Torf: HK91? Interesting choice, that.

Joe S.: Maybe someday--when all are retired, I'll mention a chaplain story or five. These days, for a chappy to engage in direct combat is problematic at best, and in some denominations---strictly prohibited. Results would be a loss of "sponsorship" by the religion---which is the fastest way I can think of for an officer to get the boot in the military! The problem lies outside of the mil-circles, so solutions are not easy (I despise this situation at times). We've come along way since "praise the lord and pass the ammunition."

Medicjim: Now I'm curious about the wavelength compatability with IR filters and/ or our near-IR NVGs.

.45: Yihaa. Another 250 rds of 230 FMJ, plus 50 rds hydras with out a hiccup. My left hand is autonomous though. It needs discipline; won't do nuthin' I ask of it with a 1911. But Mr. Right is coming along fine, my groups are half what they were when Geoff and I inaugurated the Kimber (he seen it---no sense in lying about that first outing, ugly).

870: Decided to shoot slugs at a "mover." Went out back by the 250/ 300 targets and rolled a trailer tire (rimmed) down the hill. First try, and I led too much---flattened the tire though. Wouldn't roll right after that. Heheh. Still wondering if the red dot should go on this thing or not.

Carbines: The aimpoint really shines. The heavier contour barrels also settle nicely off-hand. I have confidence out to about 150 with this set-up.

During all the ruckus, Mr. Thom and his hens came running out of the cedars along side the range (where Geoff took the long shot on his buck last fall). It reminded me of December 11th, when I realized I missed the application cut-off of Dec 10th. Duh!

Tomorrow is the long gun day...

after the garage gets cleaned:((

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 05:28:34 (ZULU)

Bravo....those cases on the PCA ammo we used were gray in color. Maybe we tried the wrong stuff, I don't know. I'm not real familiar with their product either. Anyway, we're sticking with the Federal TRU for the time being....thanks for the post...

cmoore...

out...

cmoore
Dago, Cali, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 08:52:23 (ZULU)

God, UFOs, body armor, shotguns, flashlights, mysterious critters, not to mention sniper talk....this has to be the best board on the Internet!

Thanks for the flashlight update Jim. Who sells those?

If you need a cheap source of 123 bats - I get mine from www.botach.com They sell the sanyo brand for less than a buck a piece if you buy in bulk. If any of you know a cheaper place please post it.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 09:41:45 (ZULU)

Joe S.. i aim top lease. Having you and Jim and the Brits overwas great. I'm still chuckling about the conversation you where having inthe Greek Restaurant with Michael the German.. and when he had put his points acros and you looked in disbelief.. and Jon said ironicly "and he's right wing".-. did me hgood tospend a week under the influence of Brots and Yanks.. you guys are welcome all the time..

UFO's i fly one for a living.

Tony,, yep gotyour email,, i'm looking at dtaes atec,, get back to you ASAP.. but we should be able to touch base,., Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 12:22:23 (ZULU)

Bobby - First I retired an E-8 so you can't use the officer excuse on me, please call me Rick. :) Would have tried to get to this one except we are now shor ton instructors and we have a course going on as we speak. See if I can break free either later this year or next.

Bravo - pulling the chain there buddy. :)

Bill - You have fun with that one, the last time I played devil's evil advocate I was about shut down.

Joe - Read some Hindu writings during my mispent youth and remember some of it. Even surprise myself at times. The guys that I work with used to kid about the fact that I would be the call they would make on that Millionaire game. I see that the military has gotten kinder in the placement of troopies in England before and after the Flintlock exercises. Yes I remember the cattle call each night. :)

Pete - I may be in your area later this year. I'll keep you updated and we can hoist a few good beers. I'll buy the first several. :)

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayettevile, NC, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 13:14:34 (ZULU)

darn, judging by my spelling on the last post it is plain to tell that i'd been for our sunday morning hunters tipple.. with Brots i meant Brits..

Rick,, gimmie a shout when you are over.. or better before as my living in 2 places takes some organisation.. buy we should be able to partake in afew bevvies .. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 13:38:15 (ZULU)

Pete L.

Expect an email from a guy about the Blaser 93. Blaser will be the subject line.

edit: Congrats on the License! Had to have been a hassle.

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 15:07:59 (ZULU)

Major Joe,Movers: We used 6 old tractor tires without rims.

Put ( FORCED ) a 3/4" thick Plywood Triangle inside and secured with sheet meatal screws through the side wall.

Stapled a target somewhat centered and let them go to hell down a shallow drainage ditch and out across the flats.

Talk about Moving Action targets!

No need to worry abouts Flat tires. LOL

Almost indestructable!

Hit the paper a few times but never cut center.

Offer of Kilbasa treat still holds.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey Peoples republic of ! , US of A - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 15:14:58 (ZULU)

Rick B.

CO2 pistol or real will get ya shot dead in my book. My wife was held up at gunpoint several years back and after the adrenaline wore off she said "ya know, I think it was a BB gun." To which I replied, "You still did the right thing." She gave him everything, including the dishsoap from Krogers. The pair were caught several months later in another grocery lot doing the same thing.

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 15:30:58 (ZULU)

Well, got me another new stick boys. EBR from Jorge at GAP.

LRB forged M14 receiver, 18" Rock bbl, Smith Ent. Vortex flash hider, Smith EBR Navy front sight, unitized gas system, GI synthetic stock, Pic rail forward (ala Scout), pic rail underneath for stuff, OD green, Aimpoint Comp M2.

Damn work of art.

Got some Hornady 110 TAP on the way. Oughta be the heat out to 3 or 4.

Haw haw haw ... you know what I'm talking about ... ZZ Top

brian k. sain
Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 15:59:51 (ZULU)

Ok, Rich. Here it is, as promised. Word of the week. Dyspeptic. I thought it fitting after last Wednesday night....

Charles S. Hunt
San Antonio, Texas, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 17:03:59 (ZULU)

Bravo- The Natec PCA ammo we tried was Pt #PC22355F 55 gr FMJ. gray casings. It was the second try for the stuff...both failures. The first was 200 rds all slow fire and it was blowing primers in the M16's, not the civi AR's or bolt guns. I told the local rep about the problem and he called Natec with me there. They said we needed military stuff and forwarded him 10K that we bought for testing. Well we only made it to about 4K when we pulled the plug. In fact we are going to be sending out an order to our troops prohibiting the use of the Natec in department guns even for plinking due to the dangerous condidtions it caused. We, the RSO's, were walking around with cleaning rods and chamber brushes in our hand to clear all the bad casings. The biggest problems were neck seppartions leaving the neck in the chamber, casing collapse, bullets being pulled from the case and left in the throat when a live round was extracted allowing a follow up round to chamber behind the bullet (red flag here for sure) and the brass case head being pulled off. Our local rep has already called to complain to Natec as will I this week. He is an upstanding guy and has offered to replace all the existing Natec we have with Fed or Win generic stuff.

Bottom line...just say no to Natec...for now

Stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 17:41:20 (ZULU)

Acehigh,, send email to my home/business addy ok, not to the ESA one, cos i aint there till friday.

The license cost me 1300 euro's (whats that $1750ish?) plus another 550 euro for registering me with the german dept of trade and industry as a smith, plus another 120 brit pounds for the brits to verify my trade certificates and EU stamp em.. so you talking well over $2500 nearly $3000 for the whole thing,, plus all the burocratic waiting around.. .. but ive got it now..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 17:55:20 (ZULU)

Damn, Pete, and I thought I was having hell trying to get the paper work lined out to bring three rifles back from South Africa.

Tony Burkes
Alvin, Texas, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 21:55:47 (ZULU)

Bravo,

Regarding your "mystery beast", I don't know where you were but if you were far enough north, it could have been a wolverine. My guess is that if there are porcupines there, it might have been. Be glad he didn't come in closer. They're supposed to be a hand full. That's just my SWAG.... :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 22:44:06 (ZULU)

Ken
Clarksville, PA, USA - Sunday, April 10, 2005, at 23:41:35 (ZULU)

LTCHip - www.countycomm.com

Maj Joe - No clue on the night vision compatibility of the new super LEDs...that would be a whole second pass on the technology. Give me some time, this stuff is pretty foreign to me.

medicjim
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 02:09:45 (ZULU)

Pete L;

Congrats on the licenses. I bet it was a real pain the ass/arse or whatever else.

Check your e-mails from a few weeks ago. Maybe they got through. If not, hit me off-line and I will re-send.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 02:40:41 (ZULU)

Doug: OBGYN in training ... layman.

brian k .sain
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 02:43:24 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Reply email inbound to your location.

Rick,

If you are ever out this way, for any reason, please stop in. If you are passing thru, and just need a place to lay over for the night, we have plenty of room. Hope you can make the next one..sure would be something to get you, Gooch, and Steve all at the same place at the same time.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 03:23:53 (ZULU)

OK, back home at last. The city of Chicago put on a damned fine welcome home party for us and everybody showed up. Families and friends damn near filled Allstate Arena. Good stuff, was really nice to see the huge level of support from everyone.

Gooch, only problem with Brian sending the gear to sniper school is that's one extra shipping cost and one extra step where guys can purloin stuff. They don't exactly send saints to be sniper instructors:) The way Brian is doing it is about as good as it it'll get. The USGI supply system is so damned concerned with making sure they get their gear back you have to fight them to give you the gear in the first damned place because you might lose it. No shit, I've seen it, in a warzone and the supply warehouse is full and the troops are freezing. WTF, over?

Anyhow, what we're doing is that the gear we get from donors either was turned over to our relief or it's going to be platoon gear and it'll stay in the platoons, not going home with somebody. We'll be back there soon enough, plus there's always more training to be done with the gear BEFORE you get into the war. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 03:58:17 (ZULU)

Ken, when they let the fox guard the warehouse---he prided himself on "zero balance" lines....:))

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 05:23:56 (ZULU)

Yep, but the number of former SF guys who are now supply guys can be counted on one hand. As for the rest.... S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 05:36:20 (ZULU)

Jody, i got the emails to work buddy, but monday we where busy filming(or bieng filmed) for discovery channel so i didn't get chance to reply, tuesday was as busy as hell catching up what should have been done monday and there after our network was playing up and after that they brought our email system down for maintenance.

Tony, yep the German burocracy. to me it makes sense to have regulations that tell you what you can't do in some cases, but the krauts have laws that tell you what you can, can't, aught not to, maybe should do, what to do if your great aunt is called Helga, what size to grow your sauer krauts to before you make em sauer and even in which direction to fart. some of the regulations are totaly contradictory, so your damned if you do damned if you dont. I read some where that Germany has well over 80% of the worlds tax regulations whilst only generating about 5% of the worlds income from tax.. sounds about right. They where so busy tring to make sure that the events of the 30s and 40s couldn't happen again that they have tied them selves up so tight in a bundle of knots that it makes me gasp for air. I guess they brew good beer and make good sausages though.

Doug, its no secret what i do. i guess you would call me a astronautus terrafirmus.. or summot like that, (I'd ask my boy, hes studying latin at school, but the kids still asleep). besides bieng a father to 2 kids, a husband to 1 wife and 1 ex wife, a DIY expert (yes´i'm still DIYing my darn house) a part time (full time) hunter, running a riflesmith business (just got fully set up but bieng smithing as a side line for years)writing a little for gun and field sports magazines, bieng a certified party animal and yorkshires answer to rasputin,(no sheep jokes please). i fly spacecraft via remote control for ESA (thats the EU NASA). I'm a Spacon,(spacecraft controller) in mission control.. have a look at this link if you are interested:

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=8

thats one hell of a resume eh..darn..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 05:43:36 (ZULU)

That's cool Peter. My other (or should I say one of my other) hobbies is to fly small r/c planes in the 7-20oz range. I guess you are at the other end of the spectrum!

I am just amazed at the use of UAVs on the battlefield too. Some of the small tactical ones are incredibly similar to the "park flyers" found in hobby shops.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 09:40:47 (ZULU)

Ken M.

Welcome home. Thank you and your troops for yours and their service and sacrifice. I hope you get some good time at home and with friends before returning.

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 13:24:26 (ZULU)

Pete,

I gave him the boar... addy.

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 14:30:35 (ZULU)

Been messing with new rifle. Had George build me an M24, for a contract job. Wanted to get used to long action and HS Stock. Crap these things are not supposed to shoot so well! .25-.50 moa out of a 100 rds worse group was .50moa. Only 100 yards but man what a shooter and just a plain Jane M24 with M3 fixed power scope.

Gooch email bounced give me a shout

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 14:33:59 (ZULU)

Ken,

Welcome home Bud!!!!!!

Chris,

Still playing with the 6XC, its been shooting some really good groups but once in awhile I get one that drives me nuts!! I don't know if its brass or something I'm missing. Shooting across the cronograph I get some wierd readings. It will shoot 3 or 4 within one or two feet of each other for velocity then I will get a 50+ft jump in velocity on a round.

Earlier this week I shot some 3 shot groups that went 2.1 an 2.2" with most averaging under .5 MOA for all ranges out to 600yds. When I was load testing I would get a couple of groups in the .3s to .4s then have one that would double out into the .6s for no apparent reason. I am thinking of getting some of his new lot of brass when it comes out to give it a try to see what it does.

We went out an shot in some nasty wind on saturday. I wanted to check it for wind an the JBM program did a good job of predicting wind for it. I was able to keep 2 out of three on the plate at 600 & 700yds in a full value wind blowing 18 to 22mph. My 308 took nearly as much wind dial as elevation dial at 400yds, 7M0A for elevation an 6MOA for wind!!! Once it got over +20mph we decided to call it quits.

Pat
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 15:12:57 (ZULU)

Mike: the Army M24s usually don't shoot that well, but they weren't built by George, either. The Army M24s get abused in the field and used for a long time, which yours hasn't - yet. Also, M118LR is probably not quite as good as the ammunition you're shooting.

OTOH, the Army M24s, in the hands of a well-trained shooter, are usually perfectly usable for shooting minute of towelhead. Human targets are usually a lot bigger than an MOA.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 17:13:32 (ZULU)

Peter Lincoln,

I have had some difficulties posting so this is a bit old.

You had asked Accuracy Intl. AE shooters about an MOA solution, I had the same problem, two weeks ago I had installed PRI 25MOA rings, they greatly resemble the "Max 50" Badger rings, they also have a center/spacer bar that runs between the two rings, the jury is still out as to the effect they have on the rings during recoil, ( some may wish to chime in), however...they are advertised as a 25MOA solution.

After the install, I dialed in the 25 MOA, "my scope had already had a 600yd. zero" the first shot came in true in the 10 ring, so far they are fantastic, by the way....the center/spacer bar is removeable.

Gooch,

Is there any good places to shoot in Hot Springs,I have in-laws that live on Hamilton up in Driftwood, and go there often, nice place, not far from us here in Memphis too.

Scott

Scott
Memphis, Tn, USA - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 18:41:25 (ZULU)

Ken M. welcome home, and thanks for doing the job.

Thanks for the kind words Pete C. I really messed up a number of these pictures, but most are better than nothing. Upload some more pictures, this is the last of what Keith and I took, that turned out.

There are now a little over 900 pictures posted at

http://leveron.com/gallery/Mission:Badlands-BruceRobinsonMemorialMatch

or click my name below. Using new camera gear is not a good idea at such a major match, but some photos (and poor video; needed some practice time before using borrowed gear) are up. Most of the "night" shots were without flash, and will need some photoshop enhancement before they look like much of anything. What's available is up at

More pictures are also up at http://www.badlandstactical.net/mission1.htm

John L
Mid , MO, U.S.A. - Monday, April 11, 2005, at 23:22:17 (ZULU)

Scott, when shooting in a hot spring, only go knee deep and shoot off-hand. Anything else and the mineral water gums up the rifle! Har-har.

Winney Stealth .223 (ye olde version): Absolutely loves 69 gr SMKs. Blake was drilling the 500 yard target about 60% of the time. Those 6 rounds went into a cluster that was 3.75" across. The other 4 rounds opened things up to about 8"--not bad for his first try at a target past 300...

My SPR made me look briliant (in ways my spelling does not) on the 400; I put ten solidly into a 3" group. I'll blame bad wind calls for what I did at 500. The air began moving hard after lunch yesterday. BTW, after confirming zero--I put my glasses on. I hate that this makes a difference anymore. But it most certainly does make a diff.

Ken M: The best part of Iraq is the homecoming. The worst part is missing it. If you did any driving over there---watch out, those habits sneak back on ya! The thing that sticks out for me was how many locals here drive in ways that would get them killed over there :)) I "stopped" myself a couple of times with the last-minute realization that "this ain't uncle sam's car--it's mine and I pay the insurance" as I let the offender slide by without ramming them.

Another thing: See how often you look for a non-existant weapon after dinner...heheh.

Welcome back...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Monday, April 11, 2005, at 23:26:29 (ZULU)

Joe,

Depending on the water temp. it may gum up several things!

Scott

Scott Hansen
Memphis, Tn, USA - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 01:02:25 (ZULU)

Roger on the driving thing, spent a lot of time over there handling inserts/extracts and just moving the teams about. So lots of time in a M998, M1043 or 1114. Driving back in CA was "interesting" One time I actually yelled at my passenger to "f**king shoot that guy already!" Smoking bad drivers in CA would be a fulltime calling.

Got back to the house and went through all the hardware, definately getting rid of a bunch of stuff. Just sold my Browning HP and Beretta M92, will get another HP some day, you couldn't pay me to own another Banana. Not looking at getting rid of any rifles, been pretty self disciplined there, nothing frilly, just good solid quality working guns. Lots of rifles planned for, but it's a pretty simple plan. A 20" M40A1 in 7-08 that'll be here shortly, a 16" M4 CQB upper in 6.8 and a 5.56mm 20"ish SPR type upper setup for shooting Mk 262 with a can, looking hard at Gemtech Halo to work with a Smith Vortex flash suppressor. Optics is already sorted out for the bolt gun and the CQB gun, and I'm trying to decide between a Loopie 3.5-10x40 M3 and the 3-9x36 M3 for the SPR. Any input? Fixed paralax wasn't an issue for our shoots with the Unertl in Iraq, but I know where I stand with the 3.5-10x40 and the 3-9 is new to me. The 5.56 didn't really impress me in Iraq, but that was M855 so I'm hoping Mk 262 or the other heavy bullet loads will be better. It seemed to work better on dogs, which isn't very relevant.

In other news, I see Sierra has released a 90gn SMK in .224, anyone using that thing yet? I have a 1:6.5 twist space gun that is ready to go, and load data would be good to have. S/F...Ken M

Ken M
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 01:03:29 (ZULU)

Brian ... your adapt a sniper program needing a few $$....

Hog's is this a good time for a raffle?

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 02:25:46 (ZULU)

Hmmm ... a riffle raffle. Fabulous idea.

I'm in ...

brian k. sain
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 02:50:10 (ZULU)

Ken: It's always a good time for a riffle raffle!

I'm in...if only to contribute to Brian's fantastic undertaking (since me and a snowball in hell have much in common)

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 02:50:38 (ZULU)

I'm in for a Riffle Raffle...

Sharon

Larry J. Porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, USA!!!! - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 03:28:21 (ZULU)

ALWAYS a GREAT time for a Riffle Raffle! Kinda like milk...it does a body good.

Hank
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 03:28:25 (ZULU)

I'm in for 4, how about one for Gooch also.

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 03:36:42 (ZULU)

Re: Raffle.....

Dam.... Raffle Vibes getting stronger now... Hang on....

Tuning around here.... (noise, pop, static...)

GG..GA...Ppxeoinm.... GA Precisss... something with GA Precis... in that text can any of youn'z make that out? Also keep hearing the word Roock, Rack, Rock and a loud CRACK! - dam! what the hell does that mean?...

You Hogs stay tuned.... sounds like somethin's stirring out there...

You all remember some of those popup raffles we've had in the past.... Keep yer eyes peeled.....

Out.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 03:50:51 (ZULU)

Ken: You haven't figured it out yet? This is my home page at work!

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 04:35:23 (ZULU)

Whooo??? Meeeeee???? Interested in a riffle raffle?????

Bolt
NC, - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 11:04:43 (ZULU)

Rifle Raffle

BRING IT ON

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL, - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 11:12:20 (ZULU)

Amen brothers. Count me in!

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 13:43:57 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon.. I've had the G3 as an issued rifle for over 20 years in the Norwegian Army and National Guard until i retired 5 years ago. The G3 is in my opinion still the best rifle out there. It is the only automatic rifle with a fully free floating barrel. The combination of accuracy, ruggedness and relieability is unequaled in a mass produced rifle. If you take 10000 rifles, wich have serialno. 00001-10000, nothing compares. In my opinion it only have a couple of flaws; poor trigger and a terrible scopemount.

I sometimes served as an instructor on the shootingrange in the NG when the regular riflecompanies came in for the annual qualification. With the correct drill for load, change mag, etc., it was unusual to have a single malfunction during qualification going through 600 soldiers who only use their rifle one week each year. The Iranian Army preferred the G3 over the AK47 in the Iran-Irak WW1-style trenchwarfare. If you ask Norwegians who have served in the army, I think most of them will rate the G3 higher than an M98 Mauser when it comes to relieability.

The rifles produced in Norway, 250000+ rifles and 100000 for Germany, all have good quality barrels. A G3 barrel looks very similar to a 15" Rem XP100 barrel. We all know how they shoot. During the metallic siluette-craze in the 80'ies some of the top shooters in Norway used Kongsberg G3 barrels in their unlimited guns with Sako and Wichita actions. These G3-barrels are of much better quality than the XP100 barrels.

My view is that lack of accuracy in a Norwegian/German G3/HK 91 in good condition relates to the scopemount. I have a couple of them. One come from a SG1 with fixed 30mm rings. This is my 4moa mount. No matter how good a rifle is it shoots 4moa with this. I also have the 4x24 Hensoldt in a STANAG-mount. This is a little less worn and shoot 1,5moa on most rifles. The swedes have solved the problem by welding a picrail on the receiver.

On my private HK91 I've fitted a long B&T picrail. I've fitted it "semi-permanently" with epoxy. It also has a PSG1 trigger. This is now a 1moa gun. And it shoots 1 moa or less at the same POI cold, hot, wet, snow, rain, every time I pull the trigger.

I have owned a M14 (Winchester) and different FALs. As a complete package they don't compare. The only rifles I've tried that are in the same league as the G3 as a trenchtool are the Finnish AK47 clones, M62 and M76. I once had a M76 in 223 and that was one rugged rifle! There are a couple of rifles out there that I'd like to test. Mostly the SIG 550-series.

My views are based on regular production rifles for the trenches. Not a customshop item for the shootingranges.

BTW. The 125gr Nosler BT is an interresting bullet for the shortbarreled auto in 308. If someone could make aluminum cases ( CCI Blaser ?) to reduce more weight the 6.8mm is dead. Compare the ballistics of the 125gr Nosler/308 with the 77gr/223 out of 16"-20" barrels...

A link: http://www.mg-42.net/AG3.htm

Tor

Torf
Oslo, Norway - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 14:36:58 (ZULU)

Tor, the HxK 91/G3s shipped here never shot very well. Had crummy sites and could not keep up with the FALs or M14s here.

Lindy, shot a bunch of M24s. I do some teaching with NG out here and the units here seem (or just rebarrelled and refinished)get alot of new equipment. Last time I was there they had six or eight brand new M24s. The 118LR stuff is not that bad. Thats what gave the .50moa groups. George buils a hell of a rifle and I think one of thr trickes here is it has a Obermeyer barrel (funny thing is this was a used trade in barrel some guy just had to change calibers from after a few hundred rounds) New chamber and the thing gets veloicty as well as any brand new barrel I have ever gotten.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 15:26:12 (ZULU)

I'm in for the rifle raffle :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 15:42:39 (ZULU)

Hey Guys,

Quick question, do any of you have one of the new Tactical Mil'ing scope reticles with the hash marks instead of the dots from Leupold??Or used one in the field???? If so whats your thoughts on them?? They look like they would be really good for mil'ing a target compared to the dots. Thanks!!!!

Pat
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 20:01:49 (ZULU)

A war story:

Over the next few days you will see on the television news shows, and in the print news media the story of a Military Police Squad who are heroes. Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner. I can't express to you the pride, awe, and respect I feel for the soldiers of callsign Raven 42.

On Sunday afternoon, in a very bad section of scrub-land called Salman Pak, on the southeastern outskirts of Baghdad, 40 to 50 heavily-armed Iraqi insurgents attacked a convoy of 30 civilian tractor trailer trucks that were moving supplies for the coalition forces, along an Alternate Supply Route. These tractor trailers, driven by third country nationals (primarily Turkish), were escorted by 3 armored Hummers from the COSCOM. When the insurgents attacked, one of the Hummers was in their kill zone and the three soldiers aboard were immediately wounded, and the platform taken under heavy machinegun and RPG fire. Along with them, three of the truck drivers were killed, 6 were wounded in the tractor trailer trucks. The enemy attacked from a farmer's barren field next to the road, with a tree line perpendicular to the ASR, two dry irrigation ditches forming a rough L-shaped trenchline, and a house standing off the dirt road. After three minutes of sustained fire, a squad of enemy moved forward toward the disabled and suppressed trucks. Each of the enemy had hand-cuffs and were looking to take hostages for ransom or worse, to take those three wounded US soldiers for more internet beheadings.

About this time, three armored Hummers that formed the MP Squad under callsign Raven 42, (edit)th MP Co, Kentucky National Guard, assigned to the (edit)rd MP Bn, (edit) MP Bde, arrived on the scene like the cavalry. The squad had been shadowing the convoy from a distance behind the last vehicle, and when the convoy trucks stopped and became backed up from the initial attack, the squad sped up, paralleled the convoy up the shoulder of the road, and moved to the sound of gunfire. They arrived on the scene just as a squad of about ten enemy had moved forward across the farmer's field and were about 20 meters from the road. The MP squad opened fire with .50 cal machineguns and Mk19 grenade launchers and drove across the front of the enemy's kill zone, between the enemy and the trucks, drawing fire off of the tractor trailers. The MP's crossed the kill zone and then turned up an access road at a right angle to the ASR and next to the field full of enemy fighters. The three vehicles, carrying (a short handed squad) MPs and one medic, stopped in a line on the dirt access road and flanked the enemy positions with plunging fire from

the .50 cal and the SAW machinegun (Squad Automatic Weapon). In front of them, was a line of seven sedans, with all their doors and trunk lids open, the getaway cars and the lone two story house off on their left.

Immediately the middle vehicle was hit by an RPG knocking the gunner unconscious from his turret and down into the vehicle. The Vehicle

Commander (the TC), the squad's leader, thought the gunner was dead, but tried to treat him from inside the vehicle. Simultaneously, the rear

vehicle's driver and TC, section leader two, open their doors and dismount to fight, while their gunner continued firing from his position in the gun

platform on top of the Hummer. Immediately, all three fall under heavy return machinegun fire, wounded. The driver of the middle vehicle saw them fall out the rearview mirror, dismounts and sprints to get into the third vehicle and take up the SAW on top the vehicle. The Squad's medic dismounts from that third vehicle, and joined by the first vehicle's driver (CLS trained) who sprinted back to join him, begins combat life-saving techniques to treat the three wounded MPs. The gunner on the floor of the second vehicle is revived by his TC, the squad leader, and he climbs back into the .50 cal and opens fire. The Squad leader dismounted with his M4 carbine, and 2 hand grenades, grabbed the section leader out of the first vehicle who had rendered radio reports of their first contact. The two of them, squad leader Staff Sergeant and team leader Sergeant with her M4 and M203 grenade launcher, rush the nearest ditch about 20 meters away to start clearing the natural trenchline. The enemy has gone into the ditches and is hiding behind several small trees in the back of the lot. The .50 cal and SAW flanking fire tears apart the ten in the lead trenchline.

Meanwhile, the two treating the three wounded on the ground at the rear vehicle come under sniper fire from the lone house. Each of them, remember one is a medic, pull out AT-4 rocket launchers from the HMMWV and nearly-simultaneously fire the rockets into the house to neutralize the shooter. The two sergeants work their way up the trenchline, throwing grenades, firing grenades from the launcher, and firing their M4s. The

sergeant runs low on ammo and runs back to a vehicle to reload. She moves to her squad leader's vehicle, and because this squad is led so well, she knows exactly where to reach her arm blindly into a different vehicle to find ammo-because each vehicle is packed exactly the same, with discipline. As she turns to move back to the trenchline, Gunner in two sees an AIF jump from behind one of the cars and start firing on the Sergeant. He pulls his 9mm, because the .50 cal is pointed in the other direction, and shoots five rounds wounding him. The sergeant moves back to the trenchline under fire from the back of the field, with fresh mags, two more grenades, and three more M203 rounds. The Mk 19 gunner suppresses the rear of the field. Now, rejoined with the squad leader, the two sergeants continue clearing the enemy from the trenchline, until they see no more movement. A lone man with an RPG launcher on his shoulder steps from behind a tree and prepares to fire on the three Hummers and is killed with a single aimed SAW shot thru the head by the previously knocked out gunner on platform two, who now has a SAW out to supplement the .50 cal in the mount. The team leader sergeant, she claims four killed by aimed M4 shots. The Squad Leader, he threw four

grenades taking out at least two baddies, and attributes one other to her aimed M203 fire.

The gunner on platform two, previously knocked out from a hit by the RPG, has now swung his .50 cal around and, realizing that the line of vehicles represents a hazard and possible getaway for the bad guys, starts shooting the .50cal into the engine blocks until his field of fire is limited. He realizes that his vehicle is still running despite the RPG hit, and drops down from his weapon, into the drivers seat and moves the vehicle forward on two flat tires about 100 meters into a better firing position. Just then, the vehicle dies, oil spraying everywhere. He remountes his .50 cal and continues shooting the remaining of the seven cars lined up and ready for a get-away that wasn't to happen. The fire dies down about then, and a second squad arrives on the scene, dismounts and helps the two giving first aid to the wounded at platform three. Two minutes later three other squads from the 617th arrive, along with the CO, and the field is secured, consolidation begins.

Those seven Americans (with the three wounded) killed in total 24 heavily armed enemy, wounded 6 (two later died), and captured one unwounded, who feigned injury to escape the fight. They seized 22 AK-47s, 6x RPG launchers w/ 16 rockets, 13x RPK machineguns, 3x PKM machineguns, 40 hand grenades, 123 fully loaded 30-rd AK magazines, 52 empty mags, and 10 belts of 2500 rds of PK ammo.

The three wounded MPs have been evacuated to Landstuhl. One lost a kidney and will be paralyzed. The other two will most likely recover, though one will forever have a bullet lodged between second and third ribs below his heart. No word on the three COSCOM soldiers wounded in the initial volleys.

Of the 7 members of Raven 42 who walked away, two are Caucasian Women, the rest men--one is Mexican-American, the medic is African-American, and the other two are Caucasian-the great American melting pot. They believed even before this fight that their NCOs were the best in the Army, and that they have the best squad in the Army. The Medic who fired the AT-4, said he remembered how from the week before when his squad leader forced him to train on it, though he didn't think as a medic he would ever use one. He said he chose to use it in that moment to protect the three wounded on the ground in front of him, once they came under fire from the building. The day before this mission, they took the new RFI bandoliers that were recently issued, and experimented with mounting them in their vehicles. Once they figured out how, they pre-loaded a second basic load of ammo into magazines, put them into the bandoliers, and mounted them in their vehicles---the same exact way in every vehicle-load plans enforced and checked by leaders! Leadership under fire--once those three leaders (NCOs) stepped out of their vehicles, the squad was committed to the fight.

Their only complaints in the AAR were: the lack of stopping power in the 9mm; the .50 cal incendiary rounds they are issued in lieu of ball ammo

(edit) didn't have the penetrating power needed to pierce the walls of the building; and that everyone in the squad was not CLS trained.

Yesterday, Monday, was spent with the chaplain and the chain of command conducting AARs. Today, every news media in theater wanted them. Good Morning America, NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, Stars and Stripes, and many radio stations from Kentucky all were lined up today. The female E5 Sergeant who fought thru the trenchline will become the anti-Jessica Lynch media poster child. She and her squad leader deserve every bit of recognition they will get, and more. They all do.

Note: I can only imagine the angst of the terrorists who realized that a couple of US women with the warrior spirit were among the small group who kicked their asses. That is a serious bummer for these patriarchal buttwipes. Heheh. I'm deleting this after tomorrow morning...this is just a preliminary report...too good to not share with some edits. Heheh. I met these kids a few months ago.

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 21:13:17 (ZULU)

Joe: great story. However, a friend of mine sent me that text in an email well more than a week ago, so I wouldn't expect that story to show up on the mainstream media.

Pat: I haven't used the TMR, but it's not all that different with respect to the hash marks than the Horus H25 reticle I use all the time. I used a Leupold with a Premier Gen II reticle for quite a while before switching to the Horus, and I don't find the Horus particularly superior for measuring targets - only shooting them.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 21:28:45 (ZULU)

Lindy, we're waiting...the thinking is that JPII has bumped most everything else since he died, this too. Heck, the assault on Abu G was hard enough to find on open sources.

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006564.php

Interviews of the soldiers, and a captured vid from the BGs of this attack. Check it out...good shit.

This unit was one of my clients in pre-deployment. I lost a good friend in this same neighborhood, and specifically discussed it with them (not that this made a bit of difference--it was more a "hot area" to watch yer 6 on)--but for me, I like to think this young lady killed the bastard who killed my buddy. I had a little bit of closure when I realized the where and who...

That village needs another visit from the LSF....nuff said.

Fuck I hate remembering...but that is how we honor guys like Mike, isn't it? This lone tear is for him and his family; go with god brother...

Joe Mahon
Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 21:46:50 (ZULU)

Pardon my french, but:

F*** the IRS, F*** em....find their parents and f*** em...Jesus jesus, can you please just f*** em...Oi, the full court press is on me now, even though havent earned in the states for years,, now have to 'prove' myself over their returns....c***s..f'em,, maybe I just won't go back....they're just jealous of the exchange rate..bastads....

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland United Kingdom - Tuesday, April 12, 2005, at 21:53:04 (ZULU)

UnDude: Just a quick question. With all of your great writeups on scopes did your ever do one for CQ/T? Reason I'm asking is that I have picked up a designated marksmen upper and from what I've heard this might be a good sight to mount.

Thanks..

TonyY
Woodbridge, NJ, USA - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 01:15:21 (ZULU)

Hogs - Raffle - Cease fire - Cease fire.

Turns out - I failed to check range control prior to engaging you folks. There's another raffle just around the corner - that's been planned. Running two raffles close together tends to suck the oxygen out of each other.

SO LET ME HUMBLY APOLOGIZE TO ALL FOR GETTING THE NOISE LEVEL UP.

I will tell ya - that you'll want to keep yer eyes open for that other one - I think - won't confirm - cuz I'm not privy - but - I think there's a neat prize in that one that most of youn'z have forgotten about.

Brian - there will be a raffle for AAS - just not today :)

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 01:20:12 (ZULU)

Well, have a horde of women over as my wife hosts a sorority, and I am hiding in the back room wiht the computer.

Pete - If I can swing it I will give you a shout. You do have one heck of a job description. :)

Mike and Lindy - The M24s we use with the M118LR will usually keep under 1 moa at 200 meters no problem. Getting into the .5 moa would be very hard. As Lindy says, ours are shot and abused by students. Even though we keep a pretty tight rien on the use and abuse, a few stalks and the weapons can suffer a smidgen. :)

Pat - My concern with the hashs on the new reticle is the possible difficulty of seeing them in low light or confused background. I have NOT tried it and have only seen a drawing of it. Thus this is a gut feel and not based on use.

Joe - Lindy - That story was on the news already. In this area there were interviews and quite alot of reporting. Fox news ran the most and best. Go figure.

So JR, how do you really feel about the IRS. Had a buddy that owed the IRS about 500 dollars after an audit. They went back past the normal four or five year check and found that he had over payed by about 1200 dollars back then. HOWEVER it was past the five year limit so they were not going to pay him but he still owed the 500 dollars. Yep, he was just as pissed.

Well, the noise from the living room is not dieing down so I guess the ladies are still having fun. Guess I'll play with a ballistic program to see if I can find anymore hiccups. :)

Hold Hard guys!

Rick

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 01:34:17 (ZULU)

Rick: My home is sat-equipped solely to avoid CNN. Ft McCoy, where I spend an inordinate amount of my time, is pure CNN. If they ran the story--I missed it completely--suspect they avoided it as a "good news" type thing which is pro Bush which is against company policy (verge of a rant). As you say, "Go figure..."

BTW--You are getting old...a house full of women and you hit the bunker? Yeah...me too.

My first thought was how easily the hash reticle would register on my old eyes in certain situations also. Then reality got to me--I had maybe 3 hours on the eagle's nest with optics largely because the Colonel had better uses for me than scanning for targets off our roof. As it were, that was my refuge when the rest had a pool party (what better way to spend those idle hours when the war isn't cooperating). So, the precision of this reticle fits in to my real life usage. MIL'ing my backyard and pretending I am still a 20-something action guy. For that, who cares if it is invisible at dawn and dusk? Heheh. I would be careful before I foisted it on a current and qualified shooter though.

Ken: teasing this crowd? Gotta respect that! Well...the good news seems to be that two raffles are forthcoming eventually. Or am i reading that wrong?

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 02:49:16 (ZULU)

Rick; can I ask you how you would compare the accuracy of Mil Dot hold overs compared to comeups with the turrets. I have used it a few times but the other day I decided to test with the wind in a calm and favorable situation for a couple of hours. I did estimates on the dots and then fired another series after running the turrets up according to the same range card. Just wondering what you take is on that? After several ranges and shooting each range under same conditions with the same gun, I was somewhat astonished to find that I was actually a little better by just estimating the hold over based on the dots. Of course I use it that way on wind most of the time so I' can't say I'm not practiced at it to some extent but the results were a little astonishing especially the group sizes.

I really expected it to be the other way around.

Perhaps it was a fluke but it was that way from about 200 out to 700.

Joe; good story....I never heard that on CNN for sure.

Brogers
Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 03:46:54 (ZULU)

Joe - Yes you are reading that correctly... heck - there should be @ least 3 raffles this year - I would think......

BillRogers - face it - you're a good shooter es have learned to call the wind ..

take care all,

God Bless....

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 04:28:37 (ZULU)

Bill - it's not difficult with a bit of practice to be able to hold to a tenth of a mil, especially if the scope has a maximum power above 10X and a Gen II reticle. That's 3.6 inches at a 1000 yards - certainly adequate for most realistic targets, if not for benchrest-level accuracy. Put another way, a tenth of a mil is about a third of a minute of angle - which is better than most rifles will shoot.

With reticles like the one I use, which is marked in .2 mil divisions, a tenth of a mil is a piece of cake.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 06:15:28 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for the reply. I have only shot one rifle with a Horus reticle an I didn't care for it. I found it to be to busy for me an I didn't care for the Night Force scope it was in. It was to big for my liking. They are a nice scope with quality optics just to big an heavy for my taste.

The problem I had with the Horus reticle was that when shooting a long range target with wind I was constantly tying to keep the wind an the elevation in the right spot to be able to pull the trigger. I found myself constantly looking back an forth between the elevation line an the windage mark. I am sure its just my inexperience with it an with practice it may come a lot easier an faster.

I liked the hash marks on TMR because I have the old "Football" style in my scopes an have never cared for them. I like the round "Army" dots much better. It just looks like the TMR would be a lot more accurate when miling a target to me.

Rick,

YOu could be right I have only seen it on the web sight an I am sure its different when looking through the scope. Thats the main reason I was hoping someone had tried one or has one to know if thats the case. It looks like the cats nuts on paper but then in the real world may not prove to be worth a damn. Thanks for the imput!!

Bill,

"Dial brother Dial"(HA) I am sorry I just couldn't help myself!! I took such a beating when I poled these guys on dialing or holding for wind.

Pat
Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 12:56:43 (ZULU)

Tony, tried one. Not bad. Wished for more in the way of the reticle but scope worked well. I think this new 1.5-5 shows alot of promise. Waiting for one to arrive. I will write something on it. Have not been writting much. Tired of getting shit everytime I write something, good or bad. Well that and the no pay thing.LOL

Rick, the guys out here had never stalked and most had never gone to a school before. Weapons where as issued. Great bunch of guys I hope they are all doing well. Heard from one today, former student now buddy, that says he has lost two buddies over last month by sniper fire. He has been hunting the sniper but just not found him yet. My buddy is a well trained, (US Army and James Jarrett) shooter so I know its just a matter of time for the bad guy. Everyone wish him God Speed and a safe journey.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 16:29:04 (ZULU)

This kind of thing really, really gets my blood roiling.

Our enemy with a hostage......

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=HOME

Check out the SVD/Tabuk. I know we have had issues with snipers over there. I hope someone pays a visit soon.

Got some range time weekend before last, mainly carbine practice. I get together with a good group of shooters for that, more than half retired Army or USMC infantry, and MP. This is part of the group that took DETC Tac Carbine I and II together. We got together via "that other" website. Joe, the Hellstorm gloves worked great. Shooting the .45 is like shooting a 9 barehanded. The only issue I had was in transition drills, you have to get your hand where you want it before the draw, because if the weapon is not where you want it, you can't let it drop in your hand, the gloves have "stick". I had developed a bad habit though....snatch the pistol and if it wasn't quite right in the hand, I just let it slip into the proper position when I brought it up to eye level. But after a full day of loading, reloading, shooting, and more shooting, it sure saves the hands. Weapon manipulation and even loading mags with the gloves was no problem. Very tactile.

The Robinson Memorial match sounds like it was a great event. Much kudos to everyone. Looking forward to participating in some of those things as I get more involved in training.

Hey JR, I hear ya about the IRS. I am still scraping together my pay in! After that, comes loading ammo and gearing up for Badlands this summer.

Gooch I haven't forgetten about you, will be in touch.

Geoff M
WI, USA - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 18:58:19 (ZULU)

Geoff: Correction. those are Hatch Operators...as good for less money than the hellstorms. Kevlar reinforced, full cuffs (I hate cold stuff hitting the wrist), and 100% better touch than my issue aviator gloves. For years, the flight glove was about the best glove; times change...and eventually, so might I.

That's an SVD varient. The Tobuk shoots the x39mm round with AK mags, basically a long barrel AK.

I took a series of detailed "Tobuk" photos...but damned if they are in my albums anymore. The only shots I have of it are with me craddling the dang thing after a very long day...

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Wednesday, April 13, 2005, at 21:02:58 (ZULU)

Rangers Win Big in 2005 All-Army

------------

RELEASE NUMBER: 050327-02

DATE POSTED: MARCH 27, 2005

Rangers score big during the All-Army Small Arms Championships

By Kim Laudano

75th Ranger Regiment Public Affairs Office

FORT BENNING, Ga. (USASOC News Service, March 27, 2005) - Rangers from 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment won three team and 15 individual awards during the All Army Small Arms Championship at Fort Benning March 12 - 24.

The Ranger team consisted of Staff Sgt. Robby D. Johnson, Staff Sgt. Jared N. van Aalst, Sgt. Joel S. Micholick and Spc. Michael G. Kase. They took first place in the Sergeant Major of the Army Rifle Match and second place in the Army Rifle Team Championship and the General Patton Pistol Match.

Rangers won two championships and had three first place finishes in the All-Army Long-Range Rifle Competition. Staff Sgt. Robby D. Johnson won the service class championship and van Aalst won the sniper class championship. Sgt. Christopher L. Carter won the 800-yard competition in the Sniper Rifle Class and Johnson won in the Service Rifle Class. Johnson was also the service Rifle Class Winner in the 600-yard competition.

In the U.S. Army Rifle Individual Championship, van Aalst was the overall winner and Micholick won the Novice Category. They also both placed in the Chief of Staff of the Army Rifle Match, where van Aalst took third place and Micholick again won the Novice Category.

Three Rangers placed in the Secretary of the Army Rifle Match. Second place went to van Aalst, who finished only one point behind the winner. Pfc. Lee L. Vampola won the Novice Category with Micholick taking second.

The remaining awards went to van Aalst who finished second in Excellence in Competition, third in the Infantry Trophy Rifle Match and had the highest individual score in the Sergeant Major of the Army Match.

“All of our Snipers performed superbly with very little competition specific preparation - a tribute to their military and civilian specialty schooling, consistent and realistic training, as well as practical combat experience,” said Cpt. Peter A. Lind, Commander, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment.

“I consider all of our participants to be winners - medals, trophies, and plaques aside, they all gained a tremendous amount of knowledge by competing and having the opportunity to share experiences and techniques with other Army Marksmen.”

During the competition, Soldiers braved the pouring rain and wind chills to compete with the M-16 rifle or M-4 carbine, M-9 pistol and M-24 or M-14 rifles against 188 counterparts from the regular Army, Reserve and National Guard. Rifle matches were shot at ranges from 200-500 yards and pistol matches were fired under combat time standards at seven to 25 yards. Long-range matches were fired at ranges of 600 to 1,000 yards. All firing was done with helmet and individual combat gear and one team match included a timed two-mile run with full combat gear and weapons.

“The advanced shooting experience gained in these challenging matches translates into better trained and confident Soldiers, ready to meet the challenges of the Global War on Terrorism,” said U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit Commander Lt. Col. David J. Liwanag. “These championships are the pinnacle of in-service Army competitive marksmanship training.”

Not only did the Soldiers learn from competing in the matches, all competitors also attended mandatory rifle, pistol and long-range training classes given by USAMU instructors and received Certificates of Training.

“The All Army Rifle Championships was a tremendous event and a great experience for future leaders of our Army,” said van Aalst. “All of the rifle firing was conducted on a known distance range and emphasized individual marksmanship skills and not target engagement. Most Soldiers lack the training and confidence necessary to reliably hit a man-sized target past 200 meters, much less 500 yards.”

“Soldiers will also take back to their respective units the important of known distance firing because of the downrange feedback that they received while firing,” he explained. “I also believe the All-Army Championships better prepares service members for combat. The only way to duplicate the marksmanship stress felt during combat is at the highest levels of individual shooting competition.”

Matches were open to all Soldiers worldwide of any military occupational specialty. Participants included active duty Soldiers from Forts Benning and Gillem, Ga., Fort Bragg, N.C., Fort Campbell, Ky., Fort Sill, Okla., Fort Lewis, Wash., Fort Riley, Kans., and Fort Drum, N.Y. National Guardsmen came from New York, Pennsylvania, Nebraska, Wyoming and Texas. Army Reservists also participated. Aproximately 40 percent of the Soldiers who competed were combat veterans of Operations Iraqi and Enduring Freedom.

http://www.soc.mil/News/releases/05MAR/050327-02.html

sinister
Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 00:40:04 (ZULU)

As the All-Army Rifle Champion, SSG Van Aalst won a Secretary of the Army Trophy (presentation-grade) M1 Garand. He was also the Long-Range (M24) Champ, but the regs say you can only win one SECARMY rifle per championships (it bumped down to LT Jason Koehler, former SF NCO and now 2LT in the 82nd).

Who has a .pdf copy of the instructions (or know the web site) to adjust and zero the Nightforce NXS Zero Stop turret? I vaguely remember they say "DO NOT EVER TURN THE CAP IN THIS DIRECTION," but can't remember if the prohibited direction was clockwise or counter-clockwise. Got a brand-new NXS 5.5-20 with the gadget.

sinister
Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 00:53:35 (ZULU)

Sinister: I expect that may be in the NXS/Precision manual on the Nightforce download page. It's a 2 megabyte download, so I hope you have some time. Click on my name for the link.

edited to add: Never mind. It's not there, and it's not in their reticle manual, either. If you can't find someone with the instructions, you might have to call or email them.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 01:39:42 (ZULU)

Joe - Know what you mean about Sat equipped. You should see the razzing one takes if he is to accidently hit CNN on the TV at work. Now that is ugly!

Bill - I am more accurate when dialing range. I do, however, shoot holds with 100, 200, 500, and 600 meter zeros. Depending on METT-TC as to which base zero I use. Longer range shots will use the longer base zero. It keeps the target in the good part of the glass while base zeros at 100 and 200 is very good for short shots. You can either set the scope so that you know the range for each mil dot and fudge high or low from there, or know the hold required for each range bracket. I do not use nor recommend longer range holds with a 100 or 200 meter zero. That places the target in the edge portion of the glass. If there are abberrations then they will be more pronounced in that part of the glass.

Yes Pat, I said I was more accurate dialing range. I hold wind not for accuracy but because the target must be shot at a set time. I can not wait for the wind to match my windage and I do not wish to let Murphy jump on my sights when I am under stress. I figured I would jump in with another round of beat up on Pat. :)

And now to agree with Pat (shudder) The Night Force series of scopes are not my bag at all. They are in .25 moa, are too big and heavy, objective lens is a giant flashlight due to it being too big (it does not improve "light gathering capabilities"), mil dots are too big, and for some reason, right now they are the flavor of the month scope. I guess if a SEAL carries it it must be good. :)

I would look at the new series of S&B scopes. They are well made and are really a piece of art. Now they are essentially hand made and this does have a tendency to drive up prices, but it would be my scope of choice.

Mike - I hope he minds his Ps & Qs when doing counter sniper. There are some top notch snipers out there against our guys. They are also carrying some heavy duty rifles to work with. Hint, think through the wall type shooting. I am afraid some may think of it as a game. This is a very serious undertaking and too many do not know how to coordinate a counter sniper op. It can turn on you in heart beat. I wish him well and may the wind be always in his face.

Sinister - Jared was my student during his class at SOTIC. Wish I could take credit for his shooting but he already knew what he was doing when he got here. Very serious and steady shooter and sniper. I will have to send him an email congratulating him on his "most excellent" perfomance.

Joe, at my age, I am looking at gazing at young ladies, not 20 to 30 women my wife's age. Hell, I see her everyday, I need NEW. And as I have told the wife, lovingly of course, that just because I have been on a diet for 35 years does not mean I can't sneak a peek at the menu once in a while. She agrees, and adds that sampling will get a castration so I stay in my bounds. :)

OK, enough for now, will let it go tonight.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 02:43:19 (ZULU)

Geeeeee. The Rangers whooped butt at the All Army. No surpise here. Its because the Rangers train, thier sninpers can actually get on ranges and shoot, etc...........

I was at Ft Stewart last year and ran into a Sgt who had been a student I helped out at the Benning sniper school earlier that year. In the 6 months he had been back at Stewart he couldnt get on a range and shoot his M24. He was too busy working on Bradleys and stuff I reckon...

Good job Rangers, now spread the wealth...

Out here

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 03:14:52 (ZULU)

Chuck Hunt....

Wow, and I thought it was the flu.....My head still hurts!! Mighta' been Jones's home brew though. Are you sure we weren't atrabilious??

Still waiting on that e-mail address......

Rich Johnson
Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 04:49:19 (ZULU)

Unedumacated qvestion?!

Do sunshades ever come into use? ARD's seem to distract light in both directions, so are they (sunshades) ever used in theater?

Next question. Recently picked up a Leuppy 3.5-10 M3 which was prior to '03 (I guess, cause the elev. turret turns clockwise)and has the older "threaded type objective" that did'nt have a sunshade available. Did anyone ever make one for these older models and are they even necessary?

By the way, Sir Gooch, you teach a class at Badlands and I'll do everything I can to be there.

Time for Scotty to pull the dilithium chrystals from the warp drive!

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, USA - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 05:14:27 (ZULU)

Rick, if you are willing and email me I will sned him your email contact info. I have given him some things to look but sure would like your help on this. Tacticalslings@aol.com

He is a good guy and sure would hate to see him hurt.

HOGs on another note a bunch said they where going to to James Jarrett Sniper and FTX Class I will be working at this summer. He told me today he needs paperwork and deposits ASAP. Get that in so its a go. I am planning several other contracts around this.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 06:20:28 (ZULU)

Dead Horse Country,

Rick, Sinister, et al,

Is the Army trying to replace the M24 with gas guns(AR10-SR25)or are these new gas guns to fill the DM role? I see a somewhat dangerous trend in giving new "snipers" gas guns then giving them the "want to" to get in a firefight throwing brass everwhar and gettin thumped by the one who is watching. Am I all wet?

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, USA - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 13:51:04 (ZULU)

SNIPERQUEST.....SNIPERQUEST.....SNIPERQUEST.....SNIPERQUEST.....

hey HOGS, SniperQuest is about 60 days away and I ain't hearin about whose going to be there!! Lets get those applications in and going! Gonna be another GREAT prize table this year and it isn't even half done yet!! If you ahven't seen who is donating go to the SniperQuest logo on the front page click in find the PRIZES link and have a look!! We've got some awesome stuff already and more to come!!!

Hope to see alot of old friends there and meet a bunch of new friends!

BTW did I mention SniperQuest is only about 60days away.....thought I'd mention that!!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 13:55:47 (ZULU)

Rick,

I'm glad we finally agreed on something!!!(HA) I think we were both on the same page but talking two different types of shooting. Your tactical shooting is the real thing, combat, my tactical shooting was matches. In combat I would probably have a 600yd zero an mil hold for anything closer.

We were out shooting this last weekend with a full value wind starting at 12mph an when we left it was blowing in the 22+ range. I have a hard time gauging what the wind is gusting to once it gets over 12 to 15mph. Is this a common thing or my lack of skill??? I can gauge gusts pretty darn well under that and I can pick up the gusts when they happen but have no idea how much its gusting once the wind exceeds that 12 to 15mph range.

I have tried playing with a wind gauge in those conditions but say its blowing 12 to 15mph (Never blows a steady wind out here) an gusting to 20mph. In this case I would dial in between the two winds an then for a rule of thumb hold a half mil when it picks up. This has worked pretty well for me but I can still get bit on occasions when it gusts more than I thought. Do you have any ideas or tricks you use to gauge what its doing other than years of practice an gut feelings??? Thanks Rick!!

Pat
Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 14:43:17 (ZULU)

Dudes,

Just to give the rosterfarians a heads up I will be posting my AT1 C24 on the emporium soon. I'm asking 4K for the rifle/M3LR w/M4 turrets, Starlite case, otis kit, mildot master, dwyer wind gauge, bore snake..... Its my whole shooting kit to tell you the truth. If I have an old TRGT databook I'll throw it in if not I'll just give ya mine. LOTS of room left in it. As soon as I can get the pics to Ken it will be on there. Its got a little under 1000 rds through it. Its easily a .3 moa riffle with factory match ammo.

Some of you have volunteered to help me in my little project and I appriciate it. I got a little nudge last night at Church and I need to get this thing rolling.

Ya'll ever notice how "spin drift" is very similar to "sin drift"? When we take short range shots in our lifes we just step up and do it and it seems to work right. When we try to make them long range plans something always steps in and trys to deflect us off that course. The longer we wait the more natural "drift" occurs... Throw in that unseen enemy force (wind) and we got real issues. Sometimes you just need to listen to what the big observer in the sky who has the "big eye" tells you, dial on what he tells you, stay focused on the crosshair and take the shot. Kinda whats happening here.

If you want to claim it before it goes on the emporium let me know. Call me on my cell 501 318 9570.

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 16:00:44 (ZULU)

Counter-sniper in Iraq:

I just gave this a few minutes worth of thought, but there's some things that ought to be considered.

Typically, a younger shooter asks "if I was targeting this, I'd be there, there or there." And that is the basis for his counter sniper plan.

This, and other cultural hurdles makes for some bad guessing. In the first place, part of "our" thinking is "how do I egress from the hide?" That may not be a concern for a islamist shooter. We also tend to trade Pk for standoff to a degree, so as to stay on the fringes of effective return fire should things go south. That is also not a concern to some of these BGs. In short, an enemy sniper is as likely to be illogical by our standards as not. That opens a wide range of possibilities that could get our hero KIA'd.

I also gathered wool on pattern analysis. This is harder than it sounds, because you can't just plot all the enemy activity in time and space and say "there it is." Why? Glad you asked. In any given AO, you have multiple cells operating independantly, and some in tandem with one or more others. We are trained to "pattern" one enemy; used to be the Soviets---a set pattern of everything would mean something if all the elements being patterned were on the same OPLAN. But, Iraq is a collection of groups, some allied, some independant, all celled all to hell with and without comms and C2. So there is an additional step that requires overlaying other sources' intel to the patterning, and some good ol' fashioned MO investigations. Then, you start patterning by "who and what" rather than simply "what." From there, this tool can start IDing the groups too; refining what you think you know. It's all in interpreting what you are seeing beyond the patterns. New cells screw with ya--so you have to always challenge the data. If you apply the linear thinking to this bowl of spagetti, your analysis will not mean a damned thing to reality. You have to try to separate the events by the "who" to have a chance at predictions...now, back to the other problem:

In a smaller scale---this sort of thinking applies to counter sniper at the operational level. Is it just one guy? Or a handful of skilled shooters sharing their craft within a cell? Is there a known deviation in times, targets, locations that may show shooter A, B and C's preferences? Or, is it the same stuff over and over and if so why is he still a problem? BTW, jihad calls will bring in some unexpected skills from time to time. A guy who acts and gauges reaction to act again differently is not someone to take lightly. Counter sniper should never be one guy saying, "I'm going to get this bastard..." Or at least after the second day---if the BG is adjusting to you, you need to find some support! Our snipers are "patterned" too, from the other side of our optics. An enemy gauging us this way is formidable.

Often enough, a handful of (terrorist) kids do something stupid over there and get their shot at disproving the 72 virgin theory. In those instances, our forces learn contempt for the adversary. That contempt can be fatal if and when our guys come up against a group with their shit together.

Whenever a "location" developed this problem, the augmentation was very specific and deadly. The effort behind the counter-sniper gun was, well, huge. But the guys calling this support in also knew the difference between a nuisance and a severe threat almost at once...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 19:48:32 (ZULU)

Sinister, In case you wondered where I went in March--we had an earlier than expected customer with a hi-profile mission show up. It cut my team off at the knees. The Rangers did have home field advantage, but I have a couple of guys who are much better than me at my former best---they would have done well. Mostly, it is disappointing to have the travel scrapped---but we are too busy to notice at the moment. Now that I've opened this can of worms with these guys--they are all talking nationals this year. I hate to ruin their enthusiasm--but August is looking like the peak business hours for us...

Damned sorry to have missed your show though!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 20:09:07 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Still wondering if there is any shooting facilities near Hot Springs, I have in-laws on Lake Hamilton, I visit often.

PS....We have a great facility here at MSSA in Memphis, some of us may be heading to NorthLittle Rock soon, I hope.

Scott

Scott Hansen
Memphis, Tn, USA - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 20:32:47 (ZULU)

Edited this message to tell you to check the Emporium.

AmericanSnipers.org

Vaughn L Johnson
WI, USA - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 21:04:13 (ZULU)

Scott,

Sorry...Yes there is a nice facility out just past Magic Springs called the Mountain Valley Shooting Association. Here its website http://www.hotspringsar.net/mvsa/

A near complete list of Arkansas Clubs is here

http://anythingarkansas.com/guns/

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 14, 2005, at 22:20:41 (ZULU)

HOGs taking short trip. Will be unable to respond to mail until 21 April

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 01:02:11 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Thanks for the info..invitation still stands for MSSA in memphis, several SC members shoot here.

Scott (Cheese)

Scott
Memphis, Tn, Usa - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 02:23:27 (ZULU)

Did ya get the box MIke?

Brogers
Friday, April 15, 2005, at 03:09:33 (ZULU)

Scott - Yes sun shades can be used under circumstances that you wish to reduce flare inside the scope or reflection from the objective lens. Another eason is to reduce water spots on the objective lens when it is raining or misting. However, you must take care as it also effects the clarity of the scope as less light comes in the lens. This reduction is not notciable under normal light conditions but can become a problem under lower light conditions. The same is doubly true with any of "kill flash" or whatever you want to call the honey combed stuff.

Mike - I do not mind answering his questions but to try to teach a young guy the in and outs of CS work via email can be difficult. The course I ran in Saudi went for 8 weeks and only hit on protection of a principle. Just running surveys can be a hassle.

Scott - The Semi Automatic Sniper System (SASS) is another tool in the tool box. We do not intend nor recommend that the SASS replace the M24. I know of only one indivdual that has brought that point up. It is viable for both sniper and DM, or as an observer weapon. The old stand by of METT-TC needs to be looked at and then the best tool chosen.

Pat - I figured that same thing after a bit of back and forth. You know how this internet talk can screw stuff up bad. On winds over 12 to 15 mph, gut feeling and hope for the best. We will not test our students in winds above 13 mph. At that speeds aabove 15 mph and 20 mph all the signs are wide open and only major changes and shifts can be noted. Mirage is gone and grass lays flat, trees, and shooters, quake. By 20 to 25 you are at best in the middle of SWAG land and a first round kill hit is sheer luck at range. It is one of those limits we have to live with. Now if I have unlimited sighters, I can figure out the slight shifts and stay on target but even that can get you tied up in knots once a major shift occurs.

Joe - Good rapid synopsis on the problem. It scares the crap out of me when a soldier makes a job personal. That means he is no longer objective and he will take stupid risks. To do a CS Op requires that planning and coordination as well as control measures and support of the entire area. Everything must be reported and assessed. My biggest worry is that our guys are now going after "confirmed kills" and are staying in one location too dam long. Have a friend that almost learned that one the hard way. He was having to much fun engagin the idiots not realizng that a "real sniper" was gaging him for a single shot. These guys do shoot and scoot. Looking out there and saying that is the perfect spot is exactly why he is not there. If I was operating then the first thing I would do is look at my area based on what would be the best places and then avoid them like the plague. I would also never shoot unless I had my primary target, unless it was to protect a fellow soldier, then I would move out of the complete AO for a while and NEVER return to that FFP. Nothing will get you dead like looking out of a hide that you have shot from before.

Gooch - May be in the Hot Springs area later this year, will give you a heads up when I get a firm date.

Well guys time to head for bed.

Hold hard guys

Rick B.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 03:18:19 (ZULU)

Gooch - all -

We have the pictures and ad loaded on the Emporium for Kent's rifle that's for sale. Go to:

http://www.snipercountry.com/forsale/Display_Message.asp?Message=0000012156.txt

or click on my name.

take care all

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 03:40:40 (ZULU)

RICK:

So ... the wife has a HORDE of WOMEN over ... a SORORITY no less.

And I don't even get so much as an email heads up ?

Oh, ok ... I see how it is ... lol

brian k. sain
Friday, April 15, 2005, at 05:00:45 (ZULU)

Scott , thansk for the rings info.

Rick you look me up when you are this side of the pond, same goes for every one else, i ain't always got time in the FF Main area but i'll do my best. and with ref to job description, add UK distributor for SWS2000 to the list. Ive had a little input on this rifle system from the first proto types, infact i think my first post on the DR was ref one of these, well i'm so impressed with the things that i've taken the UK-Ireland distribution(well i'm going to set it up and run it cos up to now there wasn't one) Ive SWS2000 ULV in cal 260rem, built to my specs heading my way and a full mil spec version of the SWS2000 switch barrel coming there after. Things is getting interesting on the gun front.

Other than that, I'm busy as hell !!

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 07:47:36 (ZULU)

Rick,

Thanks for the reply, I normally won't shoot in much over 20 out here. You have a hard time keeping targets up unless its a full value right handwind. I have data to 25mph but its a pipe dream to hit anything in that kind of wind. I usually try to keep it 15 an under for practice days. Thats usually past the limits of my skill level anyway.(HA)

Our problem here is we have few days without wind an when it blows it usually will gust most of the time. Even with a calm 7 mph wind you can get gusts up to 12 to 15mph doubling your wind call. I am pretty much a self tought shooter an I have had to learn the hard way about mirage an watching the foliage around where your shooting.

One thing about living out here you do learn to read wind or you don't hit much of what your shooting at.(HA) Thanks again for your thoughts!!

Pat
Friday, April 15, 2005, at 14:58:56 (ZULU)

I enjoy conversing (some say excessively)--particularly with an unnamed person who never served in uniform, but still serves his country---often going above and beyond in his efforts. Only he 'sometimes" doesn't see it as I do, and whinces at the missed chance to "do something" ala Iraq. From a friend, to whom I have enormous respect for and a singular belief in his patriotism---this self inflicted guilt bothers me. Supporting the constitution (at least in the way we here define it) isn't about putting on cammies to go to work--that is just one small aspect, albeit it can be highly visible at times; but the far more important ways to support our nation are also more subtle. And to a man (and the occassional woman)--those here "get it" IMHO. If an army is in the field---it can only stay there by each of us doing whatever it is we do. The military is just one cog in this great machine--and together--all amercians can make or break the whole mess...My pride comes from knowing I am an American. I am proud to serve my nation and my fellow citizens, but I hope I will be equally as proud when I hang up the spurs---for each of us keeps this great experiement going thru thick and thin. Here's the link that got me going on this:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-gelernter15apr15,0,7665779.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

And on the oddity of the day (or not, if you think there is a bias):

An Australian Leftist writer states:

"This has dramatically affected the insurgency. The Association of Muslim Scholars, the leading group of Sunni religious leaders, has told Sunnis they should joint the government forces. This is a reversal of the association's previous position. It signals the likely end, albeit over considerable time, of the local insurgency. Al-Qa'ida fighters led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi will continue but, despite their high profile, they are a third-order problem compared with the Sunni insurgency."

Now this is rather stunning--both in terms of what it means and in terms of why I never heard of this "good news" from Iraq...our media hates anything that might be good news here...The link:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12856956%5E7583,00.html

Cool stuff...the LA Times and an Aussie progressive...go figure.

Joe Mahon
Friday, April 15, 2005, at 19:04:41 (ZULU)

Amen Joe...........

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 19:15:38 (ZULU)

Gooch would you consider raffling off that Rifle? $25 tickets add up pretty fast. Maybe you'd find that you might have enough left to replace it with something? I know Ken says we're close to another raffle but most of us can cough up a little extra to help out some ole grass crawler if he'd let us. In this case I'd suggest you just set the time on it and no limit on the tickets. Just a thought.....

Brogers
Friday, April 15, 2005, at 19:28:33 (ZULU)

Yes Brian I horde my assets. Why share when I can sit here and "suffer" by my self without having to "share" the suffering? :)

Of course, the average age of the women are about 55. :)

Peter - Will definately give you a yell if I get to come over in Sep. I also gave the SWS2000 a look. Nice in the tactical model, not sure about the wood stock, is that pressure impregnated for stability?

Pat - One thing can be assured, wind moves bullets, sometimes a little, sometimes ALOT! :)

Joe - Well put. There are many who serve and do not realize the importance of their serving, even though it is not in uniform. On the Sunni call to join the military. That was brought up one time several weeks ago on Fox I think. My first thought was good, then I started the conspiracy theory thought process. Most units serve in the area they are recruited. This could cause a military that is split into not just regions but ideology as well. Could this become a problem later

Hold Hard Guys!

Rick B.

Rick B.
Fayetteville, NC, USA - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 22:17:07 (ZULU)

Hey Gooch--Bill has a brilliant suggestion on that raffle...The extra dough will no doubt be put to a very good use. One needs to look no further than you parting with this rifle to see how worthy your cause is!

I'm good for four chances, and I can speak for another say that it would be two more. That's $150, and you can bet it only goes way up from here!

hey all---could we do this and maybe help out a ministry???

I'm voting yes!

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Friday, April 15, 2005, at 22:21:03 (ZULU)

I would like to get a new spotting scope for hunting and GP. I am looking at the Leupold 12-40 (maybe the tactical) and the Leica 62mm. Obviously the Leica is much more expensive.

I would appreciate some informed thoughts on which to get. I have a Leupold 30X compact now, and am tired of squinting through it.

Jim

JimT
Soldotna, AK, - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 23:20:56 (ZULU)

Jim T, Take a substantial look at the Kowa line of spotting Scopes.

Regards,

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, April 15, 2005, at 23:31:03 (ZULU)

Lito, this one's for you!!!!!!

http://www.addictinggames.com/kittencannon.html

Damn pollen.....if snot was worth something I'd be a millionaire.

Bolt out!

Bolt
NC, - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 00:29:29 (ZULU)

Rick, the SWS2000 web site is out of date and a full update is currently been worked. I aint too keen on the laminate stocks my self, but basicaly what you have is a laminate wood core (where others have styro foam) wrapped in a GRP-Kevlar matt and gelcoat, the things are rock solid and alloy pillars are used for bedding along with a compound(i forget the name) that is as hard as hell but not brittle.They are comfortable and ergonomic to use, i just don't like the odd look. all the rifles are available in any McMillan tactical stock however. The ULV(ultra light variant) i have on order is a screw in barrel design on a scaled down action, has a McMillan HTG or Sako varmint stock. The hunting rifle variant uses a Sako 75 magazine assembly and bottom plate, the practical - tactical variant used a TRG mag. The switch barrel Military( or any of the switch barrel jobs) variant enables you to go from .223 to 338 Lap Mag in about 2 minutes by swapping barrel, bolt and magazine.

All come with intergral picatinny rail, 20moa cant is special order.

There is some real design ingenuity in these rifles. The ULV is a recent addition and was built at the request of a German Spec ops unit, they have the things in 308 shooting 2" groups at 500m with factory ammo from a 6 vand a bit lbs rifle.

The factory is working hard to meet demand and i can see these things bieng very popular. I decided to jump on board because i realy believe in the rifle, ive worked on AI's , Remingtons, Blasers, Sako TRG's and a shed load of others that where the "ultimum" and i could always find some comment to make to say, well this could be improved,well all i could say about the current line up was, damn thats a good idea, damn thats a good idea. There are some more variants in the pipe line. The police version competes very well price wise with the AI AE and the Military version offers more than the AI AW and is cheaper. now i aint saying this cos i want to sell em, i am genuinely impressed as heck with the whole thing.

I will probably try to get over to one or other of these US sniper comps this year and bring a couple of variants with me just to let folks have a play. If you are here in September (providing it don't clash with the Midland Game Fair) maybe you can have a play then, and certainly steak and beer.

same goes for you Tony, i got the July thing and it should be ok.

Damn i'm tired, been laying paving stones, shoveling hard core, working my ass off all day followed by a 400km drive and a night shift. Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 01:20:34 (ZULU)

Jon B- Your stuff is in the mail I threw in a couple gun rags too.

Pete L- Physical labor? Who are you and what have you done with our Pete? I dropped a Glcok Armorers Manual in the mail for you just in case you might need one. Ummm schnapps =)

Man the other night on patrol I stopped by a local shipping terminal. The USMC had just unloaded a ship full of various vehicles rotated home from Iraq...little carts all the way to M1A2's. The M1's looked OK but were being sent back for mechanical problems. The same was true for most of the others. Some however had been shot up pretty bad and I'm surprized some were slated for rebuilding due to the damage. All I can say is hats off to all of you over there.

Take care,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, Kali, US of A - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 02:20:10 (ZULU)

Joe ,, physical labor? i said i was shifting some hard core !!

yep. i have been known to work me ass off..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 02:26:34 (ZULU)

Update on Gooch rifle pics:

Hogs - Kent sent another pic and asked if I'd update the ad. The pot got sweetened abit. He's added a custom drag bag and an Eagle scope cover. There's a third picture at:

http://moses.aspiringtech.net/gooch

take care all....

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA Under God, Hosted by Bush - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 02:28:31 (ZULU)

Quick question (likely to cause some debates???). Is Norma Brass worth 3 times the price of RemChester brass??? Or even 1/3 more than Lapua?

Just had a stick worked on (match chamber and other stuff), and now have a bunch of brass that don't workee and need new.

Thanks!

Steve

Steve
Butte, MT, USA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 03:01:20 (ZULU)

Dudes I will pull my riffle off of the emporium if the owners of this site will okay a raffle.

But look here. I am WAYYYYYYYY nervous about using a religious effort as a reason to raffle off the gun.

OKAY HERES THE STORY...

I was saved last summer. Maybe I'll write a book about this someday but just suffice it to say that when an old warrior, sinner, heathen like me gets saved it is quite an event for ya. Over the course of the last year now I have been shown how I have put ME infront of my kids, my relationships and most importantly God. I was on the road about 20 weeks last year, I missed ball games, birthdays, the woman i was dating took a powder, etc etc. All for chasing a buck and having fun. Was I getting shot at or blown up? Nope but the end result was the same I wasnt in Church or being a dad. (tack on 20 plus years of military and cotract work in front of that...)

Well my job left me at home from Christmas till March. During that time I got heavy into Church and started hanging out with my kids and thier friends (9-11 yearolds) One day I was having lunch at school (our town has a little over 900 humans so you can figure how small the school is) with my daughter at school and I was surrounded by munchkins. Everyone of them started talking about "I have never met my dad" ""My dad threw me through a TV set" "I had to live with my step mom because my real mom and dad didnt want me" "If I wanted to take my dad to a father/son party I could only take his picture" etc etc....

I dont care how hard of a grunt you are I barely got out of there without crying. Well when the boy who told me he had never met his dad told me that, I paraphrased Psalm 27:10 to him "When my father and my mother forsake me, Then the Lord will take care of me."

Well that youngun got watery eyed and smiled...

Dudes I got hooked. I know that the teaching and training experience I got in the military is gonna be put to use in another war and its a war for these kids. I quit my full time position with Beamhit, turned down a 6 figure job from another company doing the same thing and have been focusing on trying to get this thing rolling..

I cant say that if Ken raffles off my blaster that 100% of it will go directly into this effort. I can promise ya'll that it would allow me to help some familys around here I know and to get this youth ministry I am helping with get some bite.

Oh yeah and remember that woman that took a powder on me while I was gone? Well we now are best friends and we are trying to get her a music ministry going. God willing we will soon have a Gospel CD in the works and you yahoos can check out my percussionary abilities (if thats a word).

ANYWAY.... Thats the story dudes. Ya'll decide. I'm more than happy to sell the thing outright but if a raffle is what ya'll want then I'll play.

Out here

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 04:19:57 (ZULU)

Test

Gooch
Mount Ida, AR, US of A - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 04:23:01 (ZULU)

Gooch's Riffle Raffle:

I'm in.

Mk4
Texas, United States of America - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 05:08:02 (ZULU)

Count me in for the rifle raffle

It sounds like a just cause to me

Semper Fi

Bomac
Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 05:21:15 (ZULU)

Gooch, PTL

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 05:40:39 (ZULU)

They say God works in mysterious ways. If it helps kids like you are speaking of Gooch. I'll pick the pocket of the Devil Himself. I'm "bettin" there many more people around here that would feel the same way. God would think that An idea that comes from ME would be about as mysterious as it gets if I'm allowed to speculate. Life itself is a big gamble especially for those little guys. Unfortunately the truth about youth today is enough to sadden even the hardest core grasscrawler I know. And what you do with the proceeds is gonna be fine by us. A feller that would give up his rifle for helpin kids ain't likely to misuse it.

Brogers
Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 05:43:30 (ZULU)

Steve,

All I can say is this, I purchased some Norma brass just to see how good it was, after once firing, some of the primer pockets, (a large amount) were loose enough to the point where they were junk, I have been using Lapua for several years, and found the brass to be outstanding.

Gooch..amen bro., offer still stands for you to shoot 600 here in Memphis.

Scott (Cheese)

Scott
Memphis, Tn, usa - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 11:02:02 (ZULU)

Congratulations Gooch, the bible says that all the angels in heaven dance when someone is saved. Just think back to that day and get a mental picture of everyone up there stopping what they were doing and dancing a little jig, just for you. Pretty cool huh?

I'll buys some tickets.

Tony Burkes
ALVIN, TEXAS, UNITED STATES of AMERICA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 12:36:37 (ZULU)

Raffle?

I'm in four times !!!

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 14:19:57 (ZULU)

re: Lapua vs Norma

In my limited experience with .308 Win brass, I found the weight variance of Norma twice that of Lapua. I might pay a 33% premium for Lapua over Norma, but not the reverse.

rod regier
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 16:33:55 (ZULU)

Mistah Gooch Sir,

Put me down for four.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc Holloway
The balmy Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 17:59:00 (ZULU)

Good morning Gang...

Back from the luminious halls of justice (WHAT??)... that babe with the blindfold and scales is a drunkin' 'ho.

Now, for a long winded moment.

Ken...

My lady just passed her Extra Class exam! Our enclosed sun porch is lookin' more like Nasa every day ;)... just gots to get some antennas up before the Fall.

I hope you can get up here late summer.

Undudeski...

>"The idea that racking the slide scares folks is highly over rated in LE work."<

With the current PC attitudes in the courts, I think that the BG's aren't too afraid of LE very much, because of the restraints on LE... Ask questions first, wait 'til they draw first, then shoot last (and die)!

The BG knows that if he gets cornered, all he has to do is spread his hands out and he is safe.

But the BG that breaks into a home at 2 AM, and hears an 870 rack, is going to wet his pants, because the home owner doesn't have to ask no steeenkin' questions until it's all over. The BG knows that if he gets cornered, and he raises his hands, it ain't gonna save his ass, cuz "Mr. Husband and father of a beautiful virgin daughter" will most likely shoot his dumb ass anyway. (And congrats to Florida for their new self defence law... ain't nobody breakin' into a Flordia home anymore!!!)

>"Lets see if they are thinking about attacking and you rack slide, you better be able to shoot them or when they approach..."<

That always applies - don't bring a gun unless you are willing to use it, or it may be turned back on you (and you die).

I need some of those good lookin' pieces parts you got - I'm getting dog ugly(er). ;)

WR Moore...

>"Brogers/'Lito- visited every shop I could think of in 2 counties and no one had a "squeaker". Please advise as to manufacturer/brand name. Or, just let me know what I'd owe you to ship me one."<

Hi Bill... go here for squeakers.

http://www.gamecalls.net/huntingproducts/mousecalls.html

The link, "www.gamecalls.net", has tons of calls for everything, and the page above has all of their squeakers.

This second link is for replacement squeakers for doggie chew toys

http://www.sitstay.com/store/toys/squeakers.shtml

Now... if you look carefully, you will notice that several of the mouse calls from the first site (the flat, round ones) for $3 to $5 each, are available at the second site for 40 cents each... so do what you got to.

Remember that the game call people aren't rippin you off... game calls don't sell well, or in volumes... I've had my squeakers for 30+ years, so they're not getting rich - plus they have to be packaged real pretty for display. The second site is for repair parts for chew toys.

Some of the squeakers are the same...

The squeakers that I have look like red cherry bombs with a little neck and the tiny reed, but I can't find them any more, but the ones that I have given you here work the same. They work very well close in or on windless days, cuz all cats and 'yotes love tender little mousies for a quick snack ;) ;)

And as to what that ol' 'yote Bate said... >"You might try just making a loud kissing sound if you get a chance... it works on yotes and cats."<

Well, you don't wanna know what happens when they get up close, but it's against the law in most states ;) ;)

Joe Mahon... (I ain't gonna call you "sir" - I'm too old to call anybody "sir", but congrats.)

>"I'm looking for data---"Big Three" auto makers profits vs. labor expenses over a span of say 20 years. Prefer percentages year to year. Any ideas on sources?"<

This is a tough one, cuz the picture changes so fast. Much of the labor costs are now in Mexico... get that new Cheeby, and the window sticker says (in very small print) "Assembled in Mexico"... so even though the auto makers are staying afloat, it's because of out-sourcing labor and manufacturing costs. Japanese makers here in the states have set up shop in southern states that have "right to work" laws that allow them to run non-union plants... Toyota could NEVER make cars in Detroit, but they can in South Carolina... and GM/Ford would do well to move south... the unions are killing the hand that fed them (literally).

>"Now I'm curious about the wavelength compatability with IR filters and/ or our near-IR NVGs."<

What do you want to know?

>"And yeah, I am sick of rabbit..."<...

... But Joe, it tastes like chicken ;)

Tactical Shotguns??

OK. I had a long phone call from Bravo the other day about Tac shotguns, cuz he's lookin' for one (or a few), and one of the things that came up is the 11-87 Police with the 3" chamber.

The gang of thugs I shot with some years back went from tac pistol matches to 3 gun matches.

My shooting partner (The Russian), bought one of those nifty Benelli M1 police guns for three gun matchs - very kewl lookin' - black stock (with pistol grip), and long magazine, and it was like a swiss watch - I mean parts all polished and S-M-O-O-T-H as glass, and nothing rattled!! It was the best fitted repeatin' gun I had ever handled!!

Gawd, it was friggin beautiful... I gotta say I had serious "lust in my heart" ;) for one.

But I didn't have the green to back up the lust :(

While I was saving my beer can deposits for the $1,100 (and drinkin' as fast as I could ;), the Russian was havin' some problems. The Benelli used an "Inertia Driven" system, and it was very sensitive. The gun wouldn't cycle unless it was held firm and hard against the shoulder, and sometimes in a match (or real life) that isn't posible.

A loose hold, and the fired cases would jam the gun (and unsticking a Benelli M1 under stress in a match is an exercize in frustration!!!).

It was fussy about what ammunition you fed it, fussy about how you held it - fussy about the weather, and fussy about what color car you were driving, and on and on... *

About half way to the Benelli, I decided to buy a new Rem 11-87 Police (3" chamber). I put tritium riffle sights on it, and was into it for $700, new.

Here's what I found - the instructions say you must use 3" or 2 3/4" magnum shotshells, but that is only a liabliliy issue for Rem.

The so-called experts on the websites that tell you that you must use magnums haven't owned the gun... they just read the instructions in the store.

The gun feed, fired, and cycled some 35 year old paper skeet loads (that had swoll up fat from bad storage), all shot while the gun was held loosely in one hand like a pistol.

The damn gun fires and cycles ANYTHING that says 12 gauge on the side (except blanks), while held loosely like a pistol, or hard against your shoulder.

With slugs (base felt wad attached), and sighted at 50 yards, it would shoot an 8 shot group at 100 yds (9" below POI) that can be covered with one hand spread out.

I loved the gun so much that I bought an 870 Police to match ;) ;)

It should come as no surprise that many "experts" on the web have expert opinions on guns that they have never owned or shot. One of the great things about SC is that when someone says his gun did something, the gun really "had done did it"! ;))... if he's lyin', he'll get his ass handed to him by some of the "60 grit sandpaper" dudes on SC ;))

Bullshit walks on SC.

As to my favorite defense load - #4 buck every time.

* P.S... the new M4 Benelli's are all more better - they use standard gas opperated pistons and the problems of the M1 are history.

'yote Bate...

If you own a Baretta 12 O/U, this may sound like blasphemy, but try an auto loader. They are soft and easy. I shoot 12 ga ammo by the case, and my Browning Gold auto is a friggin' joy - plus it has this funny thing, when you shoot the gun dry and it locks open when empty, when you put the next round in the magazine, it automatically cycles and chambers it (you don't have to manually pull the bolt back to charge it), so you are ready to go... a great feature when crow or pest shooting.

I know what you mean "A man's got to know his limitations." For many of us, the bill is coming due for our earlier life styles and decisions and it really sucks the big one!

I raced motorcycles when I was a kid (AAMRR) and had a fairly bad motorcycle accident... it stopped hurting about 6 months after... but then it started hurting again 10 years ago. :((

I need new pieces parts.

MK4...

>">>>> shouldn't we have obeyed Hitler?, Stalin?, etc...? <<<<<

The short answer is "no." The governments that these represent did not honor God's Word which is the gospel, "<

Neither does ours!

Gary Kaney...

>"Rifle Raffle

BRING IT ON"<

On Sniper Country, it's spelled and pronounced "Riffle Raffle" - it's a copyrighted orginal! ;)

Ken...

I'm in for a few - I Neeeeeeeed a new stick ;)

Boltster Dude...

L-O-V-E-D the Kittiecanon - I got 594 feet for my best, and Ruggus Rattus is playing it now (he's the next generation of the legendary KittyWhackers ;).

(Damn! That rotten kid just got 1,505 feet - no dinner for him tonight ;)

Steve...

>"Quick question (likely to cause some debates???). Is Norma Brass worth 3 times the price of RemChester brass??? Or even 1/3 more than Lapua?"<

I can't speak for Norma, but Lapua is way ahead of the rest, and YES they are worth the price - I recently bought 1,000 pieces of 308 Lapua for personal use in the M24, and have 1,000 in 6mm-BR.

Then there is Weenchester for good domestic brass. It is very good for the money, and many 1000 yard shooters use it.

Rem is getting down there towards the bottom...

And... Ta-ta (this will break the hearts of some newbees out there) Federal match is the bottom of the outhouse slop. I bought one lot of this "match" crap, and it had case weights running from 155 to 178 grains - that change in case volume accounts for a velocity spread of over 175 fps alone. When I e-mailed Federal about it, they said they wanted it back... I told them it was too late, I gave it away. Fed used to be good, but not anymore.

Gooch...

On being saved and kids - welcome home, my brother, to the brotherhood of real fathers.

I have had a pretty good life, did things that most guys just dream of, been to the edge and back, had a lotta nice things, and I gotta say I was a pleasure driven "Unrepentant sinner" - if it was good for me, then it was good.

But when my Ruggus Rattus got here, I soon realized I that life had just started and I hadn't even gotten to the "good" stuff".

She quit on him at 6 months with a "It isn't fun anymore" attitude. She went back to work, and worked from 8am to 9pm, Saturdays too, and spent Sundays with "her friends". She almost never saw him until the split-up when he was 3.

At 6 months old, I took over being a mom and dad. I cut way back on my work and went part time.

I did the diapers and baths in the kitchen sink - and I got covered head to foot in spaghetti sause when I fed him... and I loved every second of it. We played on the floor with tupperware and he laughed all the time.

Kids are the best thing in your life. Some guys never get it, but I have had e-mails with a lotta dads on this site that would give up everything and live in a storm drain for their kids.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 18:13:41 (ZULU)

Lito,

I knew that 60 grit personality was a cover......

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 19:10:58 (ZULU)

Gooch;

Amen, brother! Just something to remember, life can start getting much harder now. Ol' Scratch hates loosing one to the Big Guy and he will try your faith and your patience. Just keep a clear mind and remember whose side you are on. Temptations of all kinds are always around the corner.

Something I always try to remember, they/it can't kill you and even if they/it do, you are going to a better place in the end. Knowing that helps me sometimes when the going gets tough.

Add me to the raffle list.

Norma brass;

I have a bunch of it in 6.5-284. It's not bad at all. It's better quality than most but maybe not worth Lapua money.

LATER Y'ALL

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 19:38:46 (ZULU)

Jody,

Already in the fight man...

Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

Sounds like a paragraph out of an military warning order eh? Paragraph 3. Uniform and Equipment common to all.

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 21:00:56 (ZULU)

Just wanted to say hello and I hope this posts. I have been shooting since the age of 5 or so. I guess that gives me about 42 years behind a rifle. Learned a lot from my uncle who was a sniper in WWII and in Korea. He spent 20 years sniping for Uncle Sam. My father spent 274 days on the front line under Patton as well. They both taught me the art of shooting. I look forward to interacting and am up for learning anything new. I am a bit retro I guess. My gun of choice is a custom Remington 1903 early production from WWII. Double grooved barrel. I use a Leupold 3x9x50. I like the 30-06 above the 308. Just my preference. Little more muzzle volocity. I use hand loads with a combo I got from a WWII sniper that was designed for the 03A3. My hats off to all vets who serve this great country of ours.

Zane

Zane Bennett
Pointblank, Tx, - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 22:09:00 (ZULU)

Gooch;

Carry on, Trooper! : )

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 23:00:24 (ZULU)

Lito; allow me, Sir! It is just the way it is with me--I have my standards for respect, and I'd address most here as sir (the exception being the traditions of the service--by a hairs' breadth of discipline), so youz is a sir to me...

I don't wanna post the frequency range of common US NVGs here, but I have found some filters, and some lights behind them workie better than others...The light Medicjim has is said to have a green shift on the spectrum...I was wondering how that might work in tandem with IR filters---would it lose too much of it's lumens to be as useful as my batt-eatin' surefire so configured?

Amen on the kids---my life has two distinct tracks. Before Blake and after Blake. His arrival, literally the moment of his arrival---rocked all that I knew and changed everything. By his first spring, I had started school--by that fall-I had graduated and was selected for OCS. By his 18th month--I was pinning bars and walking away from group (add in many deployments, one of which was called ODS/ OEC). At the same time, his mom was walking in another direction...and I never looked back; he was and is my life.

God...I've been down a few roads with him...it is usually the church (or, the ways of the people within), and not any particular denomination that drives my choice--but Iraq drove me once more towards his way. One of my few close friends is a chaplain; a former action guy who found a new path in life. He and I hung out over there---partly for friendship--mostly for spiritual issues. He was there at the scenes (don't ask...) and he helped me, and many others "put it right" mentally. It was always the kids who got caught up in it, and the fathers who were there to see this, that had the hardest times afterwards...The Chappy, himself a father of kids, knew to draw this out from the team.

Zane, welcome aboard--and you "hoped" yourself into posting a double tap! There's a sharpshooter winney at a local shop---it is in '06, else it would be in my safe already. I'm pressed for time--so I use factory loads mostly (except when Geoff brings his home brew to town)--so the '06 isn't my first choice. But it would benefit from handloading, I should think. All those "other" 03 guns from WWI tend to make the factory offerings stay on the mild side!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, April 16, 2005, at 23:04:44 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon...

>" don't wanna post the frequency range of common US NVGs here, but I have found some filters, and some lights behind them workie better than others...The light Medicjim has is said to have a green shift on the spectrum...I was wondering how that might work in tandem with IR filters---would it lose too much of it's lumens to be as useful as my batt-eatin' surefire so configured?"<

The frequency range of NVD's ain't no secret - the bare tubes will see from .350, down to around 2.0 microns (Nanometers is x 1,000 - Angstroms is x 10,000).

The Nvds use a black filter that passes .8 to 2.5-ish.

Visable light is from around .400 to .700 for most people, and down to .750 for some.

IR film for cameras is sensitive from .400 down to .850, so a black filter (.750 to .900) is used to keep out the visible light.

The laser rangefinders use 1.06 microns, so the pulse can be seen with NVD's - the Leica and Bushnell type rangefinders have long, low power multiple pulses, and are easy to see... they look like a green beam (through the NVD)... but the AN/GVS-5 uses a single (nanoseconds) pulse and can be seen with a NVD, but it is hard to see and you have to now what you are looking for.

OK... any normal light source can be seen with a NVD - a white flash light can blind an NVD - put a black filter on it, and it will still look as bright, but people can't see the light anymore.

Green has nothing to do with anything in this arena.

If you want to filter your Surefire, then use a black filter - and I agree, them puppies sure eat batteries :((

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 00:44:02 (ZULU)

Lito: Aah...this would be so typical of me; take a "theory" at face value from an IP along the way and never challenge it until I put forth what I think I know...the ANVIS-6 series, a bit on the cutting edge (especially the newer 60 degree jobs) were said to be near IR, designed to limit cockpit lighting interference, etc, etc...

So I just swallowed the theory whole while seriously studying the new FADEC fuel system and other mechanical stuff that had immediate impact on my well being...

The fact that some filter/ light combos "threw" more light than others seemed to fit this misunderstanding (reonforcing my bad info). Another thought (just entering my little brain) is that the "quality" of said combos is probably more the cause than where the light falls in the spectrum...

Heheh. Another day, another new tidbit to "learn." I consider it a good day now---rain notwithstanding...

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 01:21:12 (ZULU)

FWIW, during the Bruce Robinson Memorial Match I used my NVGs and a Surefire M1 IR Illuminator. This little light runs 15 hours on a single lithium battery and puts out a maximum of 10 milliwatts of power in the 880-nm range. While trying to find the night land navigation points it was a real lifesaver. I realize that it was a serious breach of OPSEC to use an active emitter but without it we would never have found those stakes. This little light can also be used for discrete signaling. When my NVGs go on my head that little light rides around my neck on a lanyard.

Today Andy and I rode 150 miles on our motorcycles together. I see raising my kids as my purpose on this earth. I'm looking forward to grandkids so I can start over. Andy and I will tag-team 'em.

Kevin R. Mussack (Andy's Dad)
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 01:26:49 (ZULU)

Thanks for the warm welcome. Sorry for the double tap. I think I cleaned up my mess. Took me a bit to figure out the board. Looks to be a good group. Have joined other groups in the past but things seem to get way too off track. I don't shoot as much these days as I have in the past. Some reasons I won't go into now. I teach what I have learned so it can be passed on. Working with my grandson here and there. Nice to see him get his first deer. Sometimes its the simple things in life that pay off. Family first.

Zane

Zane Bennett
Pointblank, Tx, - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 03:23:23 (ZULU)

Welcome Zane. Yep, you're in great company here.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 03:45:51 (ZULU)

Welcome Zane, you'll like it here.

Jody, i will get that mating call joke to you, sorry mate,, been busy as hell, need to have a chat with you about sending some kit. Hope all ok your end..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 06:39:41 (ZULU)

Zane........

Welcome to Hawg Land! Since you're a grandpa, here's a little story you may be interested in. Will make the the hairs on your neck stand up.

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/cfnrock.shtml

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/cfnrock2.shtml

This guy should have written a full book.

Perfect shooting weather and unfortunately I've been pollenated. Wouldn't be safe to shoot with all the sinus meds I'm taking. Grandson's sinuses are messing up also. Neither one of us has slept very good all weekend and Doughlady is about to kill both of us cause we're kinda grumpy.

My Huskee tiller transmission went tits up yesterday, there goes another $700 bucks. Will not buy another Huskee, looking at a Troy-Bilt this time. Fresh vegetables will be expensive this year. Had my eye on a Troy upper for my lonesome RRA lower, but alas eating will have to come first.

Took a peak at Premier's new reticle. Kinda busy looking to me, but may have to have an old scope converted to it just for shits and grins. May be of more use if you make a living at sniping.

Bring on the raffle! I've got a few dimes and nickels left if I search between the pillow cushions. Maybe I need to get religion also cause things ain't been going that great here lately. Son-in-law comes home from stroke rehab next week. He's damn lucky to be alive, much less walking out of the rehab center.

Well, think I'll take some more sinus meds. Way to early to be awake and stopped up on a Sunday morning. Bolt, sniffing snot and out!

Bolt
NC, - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 10:24:19 (ZULU)

Puppy Country...

Out of the blue this German Shepherd puppy with size 10 feet and a wonderful personality comes into our house and into our lives. Just like a newborn baby all over again( I got 4 kids 12, 10, 5, 3... and I'm 43!!)Slept about 3 hours last night. Know its the first night and I've bred Gordon Setters, but this "little" guy I swear is already house broke and he's only 9 weeks old. Funny, his little adventure to country livin' has opened up new situations. Dud'nt wanna go out the back door 'cause there's fur, fangs, and claws(the cats)along with these alien creatures... cows. His momma is beautiful with recent shaefurhund(sp) lineage and 120pnds. He's gonna be a monster. AAR as time alows. Dad's tired.

Sir Wes, Got any advice, things to watch(out) for??

Whatta hoot.

Scott F.

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 14:17:02 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Boy, have I gotta testimony for you!! Hit me off line iffin I can hep ya. Got some questions I'd like to ask you if you would'nt mind.

Shure be prayin for ya. Anybody else thats interested. Acts:2-37,38,39.

Scott F.

Diggins Apostolic Church

Diggins, MO

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 14:55:25 (ZULU)

'Lito,

Good to hear from ya again and you're right about the blind 'ho.

Gooch and Ken,

I'm in for tickets.

Time for church.

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 15:01:37 (ZULU)

Bolt,

I'm another one of them "born again heathens" who found that the experiences in my life were designed to help me realize how beautiful life really is, and how important my family and friends are.

On another board, a 19 year old "athiest" was going on about how "In God WE TRUST" was on our money, and who is "WE" anyway. I told him that WE are the ones who have a place to turn when our frail human strengths are gone. It's been an enormous comfort to me to know that there is a power far greater than I there to help me and watch over me when dark times come. And I've seen some dark times for sure.

And oddly enough, it didn't make me a cowering sheep. It made me a more effective warrior because the fear of death that once would have hampered my abilities, has gone and set me free to do what needs to be done if the need arises. I guess it sounds corny but you can never know what real power is until you've hooked up to the source. Try it, you'll like it. :-)

Indiansinger

Roger C. Carpenter
Sweet Potato Capital, MS, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 16:49:21 (ZULU)

M1 v 11-87 I call my Benelli M1 the "Princess" becasue it's like daddy's little princess. It has to be spotless and held just right and will only eat the best ammo...then it works well but I have to keep telling it how pretty it is and how daddy will buy it a new diamond case or it rebels and quits. Now my 11-87 Police will do anything. It's the old workhorse if fact I call it the "workhorse". I got it used, put a fresh O ring seal on it and started shooting. Half the time I don't even clean it but it chugs right along with just about anything that fits in the chamber and has never missed a beat. It ain't pretty but the best wives usually aren't.

Zane- Did I hear 03? I'm a bit of a 03 slut myself. One of my favorite plinkers is what I call an 03Afake. I had an old 2 groove A3 beater and shopped the used bins and shows until I had the Redfield rings and mounts, turned down bolt and a Weaver 330 scope. Then I found a C stock and built a fake A4 sniper. It shoots OK but it's fun as hell and looks great for about a total investment of about $500.00. Sometimes I wish I did't have ethics because 03 unsavy folks see it and start making offers on it like it was real...of course I have to tell the truth.

I'm in for atleast a couple for a RAFFLE!

Good news is my little cousin just popped her very first little one out (a boy) and the Army (read his CO) is going to let her husband come home from Iraq for a couple weeks. He's a very cool dude in the 101st. We'll party before he goes back for sure. Also I bet he has a lot of new kit with him when he leaves ;)

Stay safe,

Joe S.

Joe S.
Dago, CA, US of A - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 18:10:52 (ZULU)

Shottie country:

I have posted before about my Remmy 1100. It is the parked/synthetic version. Costed $385 brand new, was a birthday present to myself in 1996. I paid about $175 for a 20" barrel, threaded for remchokes, with rifle sights. This gun is literally my "everything" gun. I hunt pheasants and deer with it, sheet clays, keep it under the bed, and shoot it in three gun. I shoot inside 4" at 75 yards, offhand, with generic Remington slugs, using either improved or rifled chokes. It will do a little better with sabot slugs and the rifled choke tube. I have not patterned it with buck, but the three gun matches I solidly hit 5 for 5 on steel plates at 25 yards with OO. Recoil is only an issue with slugs, but it has the factory solid buttpad. I don't clean it like I should (blasphemy I know), and it still has the original O ring on the gas tube. It shoots everything from cheesy low brass handloaded trap loads up to the heaviest slugs I can find in 2 3/4" and has never, ever failed to feed, fire, and cycle. The only downsides to it, the factory finish rusts easily and wears off fast (keep it oiled up) and it will not chamber 3", it's 2 3/4" only. So what. If 2 3/4" whatever won't do the job, it's rifle time IMHO.

As you can tell, I am a remmy fan!

I like to daydream about building new weapons, and for an 870 build, there are a couple outfits making buttstock adapters now, that use an AR15 pistol grip, and allow mounting a mil spec telestock. At least one has a built in Picatinny rail that extends out across the top of the receiever for mounting optics. I would think an 870 with a good sling, a light, a telestock/pistol grip (and a good recoil pad), and an Aimpoint or Eotech would be very fast and effective. It is not as high of priority as loading ammo and training at this point. And, I have the aforementioned 1100 anyway. I don't even have an extended tube, and not sure I want one. It points great the way it is.

Pistol Country: I got to try out the FM Hi Power after polishing the burrs out of the breech face in a straight line between the firing pin hole and the bottom of the breech face only. Every third or fourth round would catch the catridge rim on the breech face and result in a fail to feed with the cartridge halfway up the ramp. I also lightly polished the feed ramp with polishing compound and a cotton buffer on the Dremel.

Loaded a full mag of Winchester white box hollowpoints, and fired a couple rounds, working slick. Used the remaining ammo to do a full mag dump. No jams, but they aren't ejected the way I would like. I think I need a tighter extractor. Should the extractor on a Hipower hold a cartidge against the breech face on it's own? This one sure doesn't.

I am sure there is a Hipower forum somewhere, but I already spend too much time online between this forum and "that other forum", I shouldn't do another!

Time to go disassemble some instruments....

Geoff M
WI, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 19:36:28 (ZULU)

Scott,

Congrats on the GSD. Ain't they great!

Mine also arrived housebroken at 8 weeks. He is 7 now and still enjoys working and learning.

I'll probably get a pup in the next 12 months as I always want to have an adult around.

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 19:55:08 (ZULU)

Geoff M...

>"No jams, but they aren't ejected the way I would like. I think I need a tighter extractor. Should the extractor on a Hipower hold a cartidge against the breech face on it's own? This one sure doesn't!"<

Hey Dudeski, before you screw up that HP, hol' up.

The HP-35 is probably one of the most reliable pistols in the world - designed by the guy that designed the OTHER one ;)

The extractor isn't suposed to grab the rim tight, if it did, the gun would only shoot one kind of ammo, and 9mm ammo varies all over the place in rim thickness and other dimentions.

The extractor is just to break the case free from the chamber if it is stuck, and it doesn't do anything for a while (a few thousandths of a second)... the real job of the extractor, is that of a pivot point - when the ejector whacks the back of the left side of the case, the extractor is hooked around the right side of the rim, so the case spins out and across the room.

This might be hard for some of you to visualize... but once fired, the slide gets it's fastest velocity first, then slows down "REAL FAST" because of the recoil spring - the case is firmly held against the slide face by the forces of deceleration - the case wants to go back at it's original velocity, but that dame slide is slowing down so fast.

You didn't say what you didn't like about the ejection, but 99,999% of Browing HP ejection problems are due to ammo vs spring problems...

...if the cases are dropping too close to the gun, and sometines don't clear the port, the ammo is too light, or the recoil spring is too heavy - if they're being tossed across the county, then visa-versa on the spring thingie.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 20:17:39 (ZULU)

Pete L;

Just hit me up when you can.

Jody Calhoun
Saraland, AL-Heart of Dixie, USA - Sunday, April 17, 2005, at 23:03:58 (ZULU)

'Lito,

They eject pretty lamely. The last round in the mag just dribbles out of the ejection port. I attribute this to not having the next round popping up out of the mag to "help" the empty up and out. The load is not a weak one, more like average. The load used is Winchester USA9JHP. Website shows a muzzle velocity of 1225 fps and energy of 383 foot pounds. Wouldn't really consider that a weak load.

I didn't take much off the breech face.....and I only polished in a straight line between the firing pin hole and the bottom of the slide, so it shouldn't have changed the tolerances any. More like I solved one issue and now can see the next.

I also have the other Browning product, and it ejects brass quite vigorously. Joe M's new Kimber really chucks 'em too (damn that's a nice gun.....I don't see what all the hoopla is about the newer lockwork).

I would feel more confortable if this Hipower ejected a little better. I want to be able to trust it like I do my 1911.

BTW...glad to see you posting a little more. I was going to change my sigline to "spring is sprung, the creek is riz, I wonder where Pablito is!!!" ;-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 08:35:47 (ZULU)

Geoffie Dudeski...

Your spring is too strong. (or you can go to +P+ loads)

You can get a spring kit of different weights from Wolff Springs,

or you can cut that one back a little at a time - the cases should toss about 3 or 4 feet on the ground, when the gun is held loosely (limp wristed girlie hold)... if the cases are going across the room, then you are beating the shit out of the slide and stop.

'lito

CatShooter
Spring has sprung, Da' creek has riz, I wonder where dem kitties is? - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 12:12:26 (ZULU)

Geoff- I chrono'd Winnie white box some years ago at a match: 115 RN @953 fps! Get you some real ammo. My personal choice in 9mm is Cor-Bon 115 JHP +P's. I have real world experience with how fast it puts attacking Rotweillers down. Remington 115+P is $20/box if you look around and is a reasonable 2nd choice-in a tie with Federal 115 JHP (used to be coded 9BP).

'Lito-thanks for the link. The property we bought is too far out in the country to be found making kissing noises in a pasture:))

Also, with due respect, my 11-87 Police needs at least 1 1/4 oz low brass to function properly. That was what started me handloading shotgun loads. Maybe mine will wear in, only have about 700 rounds through it over 12 or so years. By the way, mine came with a 3 shot plug. Wasn't aware of a Federal shot limit on felons.

Gooch- I'm in for a direct contribution if you have a addy.

WR Moore
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 14:08:54 (ZULU)

Gents,

Finally a post I feel a bit qualified to answer...

On the 9mm: Check out the Hi-Powers and Handguns link that Stephen Camp runs. Ton's of good data there. Including a lot of ammo tests with current "state of the art" stuff.

I'm assuming you are using a 9mm version. You'll need to know which generation it is...early BHP's are a bit soft and don't take to hot ammo well. MK II's somewhat better. Mark III's have a cast slide and stand up well to the hotter ammo. Note that the +P and +P+ ammo will accelerate wear in any pistol.

Ejection: If the pistol is ejecting very positively (across the room) try using a 18.5 pound recoil spring first. That will slow down the slide. Hi-Powers still come with a 32 lb mainspring...leave it be! It will also help slow the slide. Although you can't be sure of function, until tried, the Buffer Tech shock buffs seem to work. With the caveat being that you won't be able to lock the slide back for disassembly until it is shot in/seated. I don't recommend cutting coils off the spring, as some do. There are plenty of factory and aftermarket options available, for five or six bucks, and then you KNOW what you have. Personally, I like positive ejection in a carry gun.

Race gun mods/springs/and things do not belong on the combat pistol. The same with light triggers, etc.

I've included a report on ammo I did recently for a number of pistols and brands of ammo. A bit lengthy, but I believe it will be helpful. Data there for the .40 shooters, too.

9MM and .40 S&W Velocity Evaluation

Wes Howe

March 5, 2005

The following is velocity information, from some of the current defensive loads, available for the 9MM and .40 S&W. It is compiled, in the hopes, that those without chronographs will have information aiding in the selection of defensive handgun ammunition. This list is not all inclusive, but features ammunition and bullet weights/designs that are performing well, in actual shootings.

Test Weapons

9MM: Browning Hi Power Cylinder & Slide Custom

Barrel: Bar-Sto 4 ¾”

Serial #: 245PN72XXX

Glock 19 (G19NS) Stock Pistol

Barrel: 3 ½”

Serial #: AZZ69XXX

.40 S&W: Browning Hi Power “Practical” Model, Stock Pistol

Barrel: 4”¾”

Serial #: 2W5NV58XXX

CZ-75 B Duo-tone, Stock Pistol

Barrel: 43/4”

Serial: A939XX

Note: Both .40 S&W Pistols were in almost new condition with each having fired 200 rounds for initial break in. All weapons were cleaned and lubed for the testing.

Conditions: Temperature-50-60 degrees Elevation-300’ ASL Humidity-92%

Conditions-Broken over-cast Wind-0 MPH

Results

9MM: Ammunition Weight Vel. BHP Vel.G-19

Geco Action Safety 86 Gr. 1,382 FPS 1,356 FPS Bullet (anti-terrorist)

Winchester Silvertip 115 Gr. 1, 131 FPS 1,121

(X9MMSHP)

Ammunition Weight Vel. BHP Vel. G-19

Federal 115 Gr. JHP 1,190 FPS 1,180 FPS

(9BP)

Cor-Bon +P 115 Gr. JHP 1,392 FPS 1,359 FPS

***Note: One failure to feed in the BHP.

Hand load 115 Gr. FMJ 1,113 FPS 1,103 FPS

8.2 Gr. AA #7

Winchester 124 Gr. FMJ 1,140 FPS 1,127 FPS

(USA9MM)

Pro-Load +P 124 Gr. Gold Dot JHP

Professional Grade 1,171 FPS 1,143 FPS

Winch Ranger +P+ 127 Gr. SXT 1,265 FPS 1,276 FPS

(RA9TA)

Winch Ranger 147 Gr. SXT 994 FPS 1,008 FPS

(RA9T)

Note: Unless noted, the rounds are standard pressure.

.40 S&W Weight Vel. BHP Vel. CZ-75B

Cor-Bon 135 Gr. JHP 1,389 FPS 1,371 FPS

***Two Failures to extract in the CZ.

Winch Ranger 165 Gr. SXT 1,107 FPS 1,087 FPS

(RA40TA)

Federal Hydra-Shock 180 Gr. 975 FPS 958 FPS

(P40HS1G)

Hand load 200 Gr. FMJFT 801 FPS 758 FPS

8.0 Gr. AA#7

Conclusions: All ammunition was a chronographed average of ten rounds at fifteen feet.

The failure to feed Cor Bon 115 gr +P was a surprise. The BHP was a full custom Cylinder and Slide pistol with Bar-Sto barrel and has never had an FTF before. Attributable, perhaps, to the huge opening in the JHP. Remember the old Speer “flying Conclusions(cont.):

ash-tray in .45 caliber. You get the idea…

Two failures to extract (FTE’s) were experience in the CZ-75B, in .40 S&W. This seems to point to the fact a stronger extractor spring may be needed, as this has been mentioned several times, as an issue, with the CZ’s.

Any of the factory loads tested would do nicely for self-defensive use. I’d rule out hand loads and FMJ’s, if that option were available.

The Geco/Dynamit Nobel 86 grain JHP is totally reliable. Developed as an anti-terrorist round after the 1972 Munich Olympics. This was developed for, and used by, the German GSG-9. Due to the rarity of the round, light bullet weight, and lack of performance data I cannot recommend it, at this time. Consider it cost prohibitive, as well, at $100.00 a box of 50. You can buy a lot of premium regular ammo for that amount.

Cor-Bon ammunition: The only failures to function were with this ammunition. Nothing earth shattering, but points to the fact you need to test your carry ammo in the weapon you are using it in., fairly extensively.

Velocity: Velocity champs were Cor-Bon. With the 115 gr +P 9mm load averaging 1,392 from my high power. Cor-Bon .40 S&W 135 gr loading clocking 1,389 from my Hi-Power. That IS hauling the bacon, and puts the round in the class with the old .125 gr. .357 Magnum loading. Impressive.

My selections:

In 9mm, I’d select the 127 gr +P+ Ranger SXT (RA9TA),due to it’s velocity, bullet weight, ability to defeat barriers, and still perform on the other side, as a JHP. This load averaged 1,265 FPS in the BHP. I would consider it a “do all” round.

If you don’t want to deal with +P or +P+ rounds then I would select Federal 115 gr JHP (9BP) or Winchester Ranger SXT 147 gr. Load (RA9T)

In the .40 S&W loading I would go with Cor-Bon 135 gr. Loaded, at 1,389 FPS, for raw energy and the fact it may stay in the body of the perpetrator and not over penetrate. This would be my rounds of choice.

The “do everything” loading goes, once again, to the Winchester Ranger SXT 165 gr. Load. For the same reasons that that brand was selected in 9mm.

For barriers the Winchester Ranger SXT loads are the way to go…as they give good results in “soft medium” on the other side of the barrier.

In short, we have a compendium of loadings that perform well in 9mm and .40 S&W.

Select those rounds that you feel meet your needs. Ensure you test your pistol and carry magazines, with your ammunition selection, for 100% reliability.

There are no “magic bullets” in any caliber, but there are some here, that may tip the odds in your favor, should you ever have to go into the “dark place”.

Be safe, be aware, and always WY6.

Wes

Wes Howe
Dallas, OR, USA - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 17:33:08 (ZULU)

You blokes with high powers, need any bits gimmie a shout. ive a fair stock that i decided Elisabeth didn't need any more when i left the Army.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 17:59:26 (ZULU)

Joe

The 03 has sort of an odd story. It has been modified. I picked the gun up in a pawn shop several years back. I was poking around in the shop looking for a deal on a hand gun for my wife. On the outside chance I asked the fellow behind the desk what rifles he had for sale. He stated he had only one old junk gun left. He pulled out this Remington 1903 that had some extensive custom work. I looked at the serial numbers and tried to keep a poker face. He said look it even has 1903 right here on the gun. I said your righ it sure does. My wife bought it for me for Christmas. It has a very expesive adjustable trigger and with the extra groves it is pretty accurate. THe hand loads I use are hot. Approach a 7mm mag to compare. I would not shoot them in any other 06. As you know the 03 has very hard metal content. I get about 3200 + fps with these loads. I picked this rifle up for $275. Very nice walnut stock. Drilled and tapped for a scope.

Now I do prefer the 06 as I said but I do have a nice little winchester 308 sitting in the safe with a 4.5x15x50 with bullet drop compensator. It will do in a pinch.

Zane

Zane Bennett
Pointblank, Tx, - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 18:25:16 (ZULU)

Gooch, If you decide to have a raffle please announce it on the board. If you have already announced it I missed it.

HDR

HDR
OK, - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 18:53:07 (ZULU)

What a hoot! Just got a call at work from my wife. She was doing some yard work and saw a snake. Instead of hitting it with the hoe she goes in and grabs my Sig 45 with defence loads. She said that mud and snake guts went everywhre. The funny thing is the casing landed on the welcome mat. Hell and back reliability! I guess its good for 2 legged and no legged snakes.

Zane

Zane Bennett
Pointblank, Tx, - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 18:54:05 (ZULU)

Gents,

What flavor of firearm and ammo do you use for personal carry/defense? Does anyone use the Federal Hydra-Shok? How do you like it?

TIA

Duman

Duman
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 20:27:26 (ZULU)

Duman,

What caliber of weapon are you thinking about using the Federal Hydra-shock ammunition in?

When my department first went to semi-auto pistols, back in the early 90's, we carried Glock 17's and the ammo issued was 124 grn Hydra-shoks. From personal experience I don't care for it. 3 through and throughs and only 1 expansion. Expansion occurred on a elbow hit. Little while later we went to Glock 21's, and 230 grain Gold Dot's. The Gold Dot's have preformed well in the field. We also tested the Remington Golden Sabre's and the preformance matched that of the Gold Dot, overall, and the accuracy of the Golden Sabre was much better than the Gold Dot's. That along with the Golden Sabre was much cheaper, the department has since switched to the Remington Golden Sabre.

My weapon of choice for personal carry is Glock 21 and Remington Golden Sabre's in 230 grain. I am not one for changing the weapon I am carrying because it doesn't match the rest of my ensemble, or because a certain weapon is lighter to carry, or easier to conceal. I am one for carrying the weapon you train the most on, because I can guarantee you that when the s hits the fan, you will revert back to the basics, and will operate the weapon in hand just like the weapon you train the most on.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 21:24:45 (ZULU)

Good Great Green Gobbs of Gopher Guns Goeff! Get a Glock!

Brogers
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 21:44:25 (ZULU)

Bobby,

Thanks for the info. I just completed my CCW course with a HK-USP 40-S&W compact. I'm thinking of getting qualified with a 45-compact. The instructor, who has eons of LE/FED experience uses Hydra-Shoks. Looking for second opinions.

Duman

Duman
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:04:59 (ZULU)

Bill: "...little birdies dirty feet, french fried eyeballs...." Heheh, Mom sure as hell hates it when the girls belt out a chorus of that tune...

Get a Glock? Bill, one first must either rule out every other make of gun or go broke fixating on a particular model's shortcomings before the glock get's considered.

Joe Mahon
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:12:57 (ZULU)

Not shooting related,

Went to work this AM to be greeted by a woman who addressed me as Mr. John H. and presented me with a card from the IRS. Don't ya just love MONDAYS! Seems we won the IRS lottery (as she called it) and were selected for a full audit(flight school). Got a call at 20:00Z from my office, she's gone and unhappy cause all the numbers matched the return AS FILED. NO CHANGE AUDIT ! That's the shortest audit I've ever had. WHEW!

John

acehigh
Blmgtn, IN, USA - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:19:22 (ZULU)

Bill,

I've never understood the fascination with Glocks, but they must be pretty good guns, given the number of people that own them. Several people in my class were shooting them. Quite well, too.

Never cared for the safety system. Never fired one.

I like the ergonomics of the HKs. Triggers could be better, but not many pistols I've tried have sweet triggers.

Duman

Duman
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:19:32 (ZULU)

Personal protection- like Bobby says: I carry a S&W 5906 cause it duplicates the operation of the 10mm I carry at work. I use Cor-Bon 115 gr +Ps in the weapon (Remington +P or Federal 9BP if my personal or retail stores are out of stock on Cor-Bon at rotation dates), Federal ball in the backup mags. I don't have a Motorola radio on my personal time, I also live in the boonies and backup is ???? away,which is why the 9mm. I figure after the first mag, penetration is gonna be more valuable. Remember trolls go in groups and watch your six.

Hydra Shoks are supposed to be the way to go in 230 gr .45. I've tested the 147 gr 9mm and in tissue simulant, they do indeed go to .64 inches/64 caliber just like the ads say. They're also the most accurate 9mm load I've ever fired. I'm just not sold on the 9mm heavy bullet concept. Ya gotta remember the FBI was looking for vehicle penetration. If I'm looking for vehicle penetration, I carry something much more powerful than a handgun.

WR Moore
Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:25:06 (ZULU)

I carried 1911s in .45ACP for years. I have a couple of functionally identical and pretty ones.

Then my sweetie decided to get a carry permit, so I bought her a Glock 26. When I went into my local Academy store to buy ammo for it, I found it was $4.86 for a box of 50 - Winchester white box. A quick calculation showed that my .45 ACP reloads cost about that.

So, now I carry a Glock 23, and I shoot a Glock 19 on the range. The two have the same profile, so holsters and mag pouches work for both. And the Glocks are a lot lighter.

They're ugly - and they work. I don't have any religious beliefs about ammo. I think shot placement matters more. My only bitch about Glocks is that the mag release hurts my left index finger when I reload left-handed. I can live with that.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:35:26 (ZULU)

My FWIW on handguns. I have 3 handguns I'd carry, not counting the 10/45, all are Glocks. A 17,21 and my primary CCW, a 36. So a 9MM and 2 .45's. I grab any of the 3 and they shoot the same. Granted the 36 has a "bit" more recoil due to the short barrel but that's a non-issue. Ammo, here is were it gets interesting. Fedral Hydra Shoks in everything, 147's in the 17 and 230's in the .45's Why? only one reason this is what local LE carries in there weapons. PD carries G17's S.O. carries Sig 220's State wellll they went to Glocks in .357 Sig a few years ago, haven't shot one so don't know! I figure IF I ever got in the situation were I had to pull the trigger if I'm using the same ammo as local LE's the defense attorney has one less thing to use against me. Only reason for the Hydra Shoks.

Again just my 2 cents.

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, NM, USA - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 22:50:12 (ZULU)

Country Wives...

Gota call from my wife on the cell phone while I was on the way home one day last summer...

" Hey babe, how far out are you?" says she.

" About 30 minutes. Why do you ask?" says me.

" Well, I thought the boys were playin around and left a rubber snake

in the window. Only problem is... it's not rubber." says she.

" What does it look like and how big is it?" Dumb question.

" Its black with speckles and about 2 ft. long. How do I get it out

of the window, its wrapped up in the mini blinds?" says she.

She says she'll call me back in a minute. Cell phone rings...

" Well, where is it now?" says me.

"I'm standing on it. How soon will you be home?" says she.

" Apparently not soon enough. What are you goin to do, just stand there?" hehehe.

" Never mind. I'll call you back." Click and dead air. Ring goes the cell.

" I took care of it. Jordan (4yr old son)went and got me a pair of scissors and I closed my eyes then stuck the scissors down where I thought his head would be and woosh... end of wild kingdom."

Man I love that woman.

Now where did she put those scissors...

Scott F.
Hillbillyland, USACountry - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 23:18:44 (ZULU)

Bill Rogers....

"get yourself a Glock!"

Find me one with nite sights and a hi cap for $200 like I got the Hipower, and I will! ;-)

Geoff M
WI, USA - Monday, April 18, 2005, at 23:37:37 (ZULU)

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