Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sarge,

Email inbound with a small prayer atached :) :) (but no files attached...)

Bill

Bill Moore
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 01:49:25 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Email inbound via roster with question from Steve in it. No attachments. Hit me directly with reply.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 02:05:49 (ZULU)

Bruce: One caveat to that plan: Enlisted only get the 10 grand. If any officer complains---give him the boot. You see, we can cure two ills with one pill---we square away our younger force with deserved compenstation, AND we identify the self-serving pricks clogging up the officer ranks. Elegant. I like it...

Joe M.

joe mahon
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 06:15:40 (ZULU)

Jody. Stand on the lake shore and shoot at Canada. Talk about a big, soft backdrop! Yeah, flacid liberal limp-wrists are uneconomical when compared to a good dirt berm....but then, what the hell else would they be good for?

joe mahon
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 06:35:25 (ZULU)

Sorry Bruce you wont get any support for Ben Stein's idea from me. No doubt that the soldiers deserve a 10K across the board pay raise or more but raising taxes is not the way to pay for it.

That 5% surcharge will put people out of work and reduce the rate of recovery for our economy. How about cutting some bullshit programs, pork bills, and fraud, waste and abuse of the tax funds to pay for it?

Why is it that every time there is something that the government needs they come knocking at the door of the top x% earners? These producers of our society are responsible for small business, large businesses, and everything in between. Over tax the producers and you will tax the country into oblivion. When all of these producers continue to be punished for their achievements by paying for the takers they will eventually just stop producing. Ever read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged? If not do so then rethink your support of that harebrained idea - I know Ben is far from harebrained but that is a truly foolish proposal.

Who is John Galt?

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 07:34:10 (ZULU)

I am sure this has been posted before but ....

How Taxes Work . . .

> This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does make you think!!

> Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

> The first four men ? the poorest ? would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man ? the richest ? would pay $59.

> That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement ? until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

> "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

> The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six ? the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

> The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

> And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

> But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

> "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

> "That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

> "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

> The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!

> And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

> Where would that leave the rest? Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this rather straightforward logic!

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 07:38:36 (ZULU)

LTCHIP;

"Who is John Galt?"

Hear here!

A principle of objectivism; "Every man has the right to the fruits of his own labors. To take those fruits from him by means of force or fraud is wrong."

A poor man never gave me a job.

A guy named Marx once wrote something like, "To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities." I seem to remember his economic/social theories failed the test on several occasions.

Since there are fewer wealthy they represent fewer votes. You see, democracy is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 08:59:14 (ZULU)

LTChip and Kevin Mussack: We're on the same page.

Joe M (or any of you active guys): If you get the time, check out the link (Click my name and search for the phrase, "Headline: Bush's Odd Warfare State.") and tell me what you think of this guy's argument. It's really hard to figure a fair market value of going into combat (if I did it only for the money it would take a LOT) but this guy thinks that our people are doing okay.

All: Any time CBS and "The Progressive" start shedding tears for our troops, I smell a rat. They want to raise taxes, attack Bush in an election year and hurt recruiting. These people don't give a s--- about our troops.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 13:55:18 (ZULU)

BKS, your garage looks like a RPG hit a UPS truck? My guess is that you’re not alone. Several of my packages delivered by UPS appear that the truck took an RPG hit.

Patron Mike, thanks for the offer, but 11.5 wide is about 5 sizes too large LOL! I’ll check out the Bellvilles, I’ve just been getting Altamas since about 91 IIRC, so I was sticking with what I knew. You know. A new ’14 eh? Way cool! That brookie-field should be the cat’s meow, but I don’t want to know who you had to stick up to get it ;-)

Major Santa, on the Altamas, they’re also $100+ for the desert boots. Not much more, I think it was something like $110 or some such. Your comments on the QC of them has me baffled though. Not about the size thing, that’s a FACT in my book. I don’t understand it, but they all feel like 7R’s to me. Again, too big and narrow. The part about them rotting off though, that’s the part I don’t get. I’ve had three pairs total since way back then, and all have been great. The only reason I’m buying more now is because mine were screwed up in the flood, and the insurance is paying (HEHEHEHE!) for replacement. I hate to think about the miles I’ve put on them, it would make my knees ache. I wonder if the QC stuff isn’t “recent” and due to the spool up for you guys over there.

MK4, HA! I like it: "Gays, God and Guns." I’ve had the same “talk” with my congressman. Got a nice reply back this last time, he might have “gotten the message”. Still, it’s actions that matter, not words. We’ll see.

Rob, might have to take you up on that. I checked my “local” home dumpo, and it was a no-go. No Krylon at all. I’ll drop you a line this evening, after I get home, on the roster mail. Just the desert colors... I have no need for black!

And thinking of Brownells, has anyone got the freeby catalog from the SHOT show yet? I haven’t, and I’d like one! I did get the scanned badge thing though...

Joisey Steve, re: Para the rest of the JackAsses from Washington in there too ! As Jimmy Buffet would say “that takes care of two problems right there!”. I’m for it, assuming that the military could contain their feelings on the matter and actually give them chutes. Nah, nevermind. Does this fall into the category of dumping pork on them too?

Howdy Patron Dave! Good to see you back again. Just one question... what’s a “leaf”? HA! I’ll remember that.

CDC, excellent point. And while I’m thinking of it, shoot me your physical again, I lost that when the contact info went bye-bye.

Dirty Steve, wasn’t it a Texas police department that got “embarassed” for making doughnut runs with the department slick? Uh, two dozen custard filled, going up in the giant fan ;-)

Bruce, my friend, I’ll try it, but I have serious doubts as to the effect it will have. “Halls of congress” and “conscience” are two words very seldomly heard in the same sentence in a positive way. Very often as “do the halls of congress have no conscience?” I hear that a lot.

LT Chip, Very well done! Objectivist epistemology is one of my greatest hits. And Rand is my favorite, even topping Nietzche. Who is John Galt? Well, for starters, that was the name of my cat. I found it a good conversation starter when someone would ask me (wondering at the name) “who is John Galt?”. HA!

Did I miss anything? (GRIN) Oh yeah, try “Capitalism: the unknown ideal”. Good stuff.

Bravo
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 15:36:13 (ZULU)

Re: Taxes

Don't misunderstand me. I am all for getting the government out of my wallet, and I am DEFINITELY not a "Share The Wealth" proponent.

But I am damn sure a fan of Ben Stein and his conservative and fiscally responsible philosophies.

My support of his proposal was prompted by the fact that I get funds and goods to ship to Joe from people who are struggling to make house payments (or buy a new rifle!), but not from the captains of industry and politicians.

We are at war. Our troops deserve better pay. Stein proposed this plan to help them, and included himself. When you look at the real estate holdings of John Kerry and other politicians and realize that they are being protected by our troops who are in some cases making less than their butlers, I say something is wrong.

I stand by my support of this idea. But I would amend it to include MAJ Mahon's suggestion to limit it to enlisted only.

Maybe a better solution would be to just go to a flat 10% tax and put the tax lawyers and half the IRS out of business, but that has the same chances of happening as me getting elected Pope.

And, yes, I have read "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead". No poor man ever gave me a job, either. But I'm damned tired of our folks in the sandbox and elsewhere needing socks and Chapstick while politicians go back and forth between their $7 mil. Georgetown home and their $10 mil. summer place on Nantucket, and then want to raise MY taxes. And pay me in 120 days when they contract for 30!

Sorry about the rant, guys, but IMHO, the "elite" are not pulling their weight as regards our troops.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 15:48:31 (ZULU)

Ancient chinese proverbs,

Virginity like bubble, one prick, all gone.

Man who run in front of car get tired.

Man who run behind car get exhausted.

Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day.

Foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife upright organ.

Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.

Man with one chopstick go hungry.

Man who eat many prunes get good run for money.

Baseball is wrong: man with four balls cannot walk.

Panties not best thing on earth but next to best thing on earth!

War does not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house.

Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.

It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.

Man who drive like hell, bound to get there

Man who stand on toilet is high on pot.

Man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.

Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs.

Crowded elevator smell different to midget.

Man who has sex with woman in field get piece on earth

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:11:00 (ZULU)

"the "elite" are not pulling their weight as regards our troops"

First of all using the term "elite" invokes exactly the type of class envy the socialists use anytime they get a hankering to raise taxes. Again, it does not matter that Stein was the one proposing it, I am well aware of his politics, but in this case he is dead wrong.

Second, could not agree more that the troops deserve to be provisioned and paid better than they are.

Third, take a look at what the government spends on less worthy things and petition to pay the troops by reducing spending in these areas. You could pay every Joe a 6 figure combat bonus and still not be done cutting the immoral pork spending.

www.CAGW.org is a good place to start. Hell, the farm-subsidy bill alone costs us $190,000,000,000 over 10 years. Cut that, by say, 20% and if we have 250,000 troops in combat then that is enough to give each of them $15,000 extra per year. There, I just solved the problem by looking at one single socialist program.

Then when you are done with that, you can start on the fraud and abuses of tax payer money.

In the end, we would have a properly compensated military, a balanced budget, healthier economy and lower taxes for all.

Sorry but raising taxes is never the answer when we are at the state we are now.

You imply that these evil top x%ers are not pulling their weight well when you are in the top tax bracket and in a state like CA or NY looking at your total tax liability (income, state, local, property, sales, and use) you are in the 60%+ tax bracket. That means that more than half of what they produce goes to the takers.

These taxes are taken through the threat of violence and imprisonment. We live in oppression in this regard. So, again, pay the troops more? Yes. But not by pointing a gun at Americans and robbing them further of their property.

LTChip

Edited for spelling and arithmatic

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:24:59 (ZULU)

Last week I said that Kennedy and Byrd are carrying water for this country's enemies. Jonah Goldburg says it better. Click my name.

Bruce Robinson: I'm not trying to be tedious, but I'm not convinced that our troops are underpaid. Let's let the active guys look at the link I posted earlier. I'd be more concerned with the claims that Marines in Fajullah were only getting a quart of water a day and are short of ammo.

Support our troops. Give 'em plenty of ammo.

Again, not to be contentious, but any tax that reduces the marginal incentive is not consistent with Conservative economic theory. We can take care of the troops without forcing a lot of small businesspeople to fire employees.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:33:18 (ZULU)

Fallujah rebels disapprove of Marine Snipers. Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:11:17 (ZULU)

One last salvo and I'm gonna drop it........

I've lived in CA (4 yrs.) and NY (7 yrs., plus commuted to NJ and was privileged to pay taxes in BOTH states, plus NM where I had some financial interests!) so I am well aware of total tax liability.

But I don't think that the plan that I referenced would result in small businesses laying off employees. I'm more inclined to think that it would impact large corporations, who would simply find another write-off to counterbalance the 5%. Or maybe cut out some of the Enron-style shenanigans that left hundreds of families with their life savings vaporized.

I'm as 'bout a small business as they come...the only way I get service from my government is the same way a heifer gets serviced by a bull.

I guess the reason I get so worked up about this is I hear from Joe about the basics that are needed over there. I solicit and receive donations that range from $10.00 to $1,000.00 from common folks who constantly say, "I wish it could be more." I would love to see a huge check come in from the politicians earning six figures, but it ain't happening.

Am I cynical? Do I think that there is a class division in this country? You betcha! When Diane Feinstein has a concealed carry permit for her .38 and no other Californians can do so, there is a class division.

End of rant. End of my comments on this subject. Y'all know how I feel about it, and ain't nobody gonna change my mind.

Still need some more money for Goodies for the Grunts, so pony up and make this old reprobate and his Child Bride happy! We still pay the freight, without help from Bill Gates........

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:17:55 (ZULU)

I am with Bruce on this. Our troops are way under paid. CDC/Dan, the salary the troops get may not sound bad in parts of the country but out here they are lucky to eat Burger King. In my neck of the woods the average crappy house costs over 600,000 and that my friend is in a former Ghetto! Former because guys like me have bought there because the good neighborhoods all cost over 1,000,000 now. UNless you want to communte three hours a day and then the normal homes are 500,000. I mean normal not great. Ask Mike S. what he just paid. Now I make fair money but without Lorraines great income as a Specials Nurse I would be stuck in a trailer. Thats with my income as a Police Sergeant and the side business. Now the dog faces I know would love to have my income as they cant afford a trailer around here.

By the way when I retire I am going to a land of house that cost under 200,000.

When we debate our troops pay, I like to look at it this way. How much do they pay me to be fairly safe here with the love of my family? How much would I want to be in Iraq, without my families love and with every damm fool wanting to kill me? With all the locals playing all sides againts the middle.

Man I say bend over and kiss the ground you are standing on. Then send all you can to help these poor guys and gals.

Thank God for the Heros we call Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen.

By the way Bruce just donated a bunch of Mildot Masters to soem troops about to deploy. Ken Hunter is getting some stuff together to send over and my offer to train with anyone about top go, for free still stands. Bruce, the Guys at Camp Roberts love you.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:57:57 (ZULU)

CDC, I liked the Goldberg piece. At first, I thought his credibility questionable, since he used two words in the same sentence that hardly ANYONE could get away with.... "kennedy" and "sober". He pulled it off though. The Orwell part was gravy.

Bruce, my friend, I understand what's being said. On both sides. Raising taxes on a portion of taxpayers is essentially the same as raising the minimum wage. Either way, companies (especially small companies) have the the option of less profits or less low-end workers. You know which gets axed first. And while I agree a flat tax is a BETTER way of going, it's certainly not "fair". A "FAIR" tax is derived by a long and difficult to understand equation: Annual budget / number of tax paying citizens = how much you need to write out a check for once a year. Even this is a bit "socialist", but a very small bit. Note, there's absolutely nothing included about a "withholding". Everyone should pay by check or cash the exact amount on the date specified. The larger the amount, the higher the shock value; the higher the shock value, the shorter incumbent politician terms get. I doubt that anyone will argue that the Individuals Representing Satan take what they do by coersion, force, or intimidation. By the way, I really like Ben Stein too, have for many years.

Might also want to check out one by Martin Gardner, the why's of a philisophical scrivener

Bravo
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:19:16 (ZULU)

Edited to remove reply to old post -

Clay Goret
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:24:04 (ZULU)

To Lt Chip

I would love life if you could do away with the farm subsidy. I would then be getting about $2500 to $3000 a head for my cattle and about $10.00 a bushel for my wheat or more. And you could now pay $5.00 a loaf for bread and about $25.00 to $30.00 a pound for steak. Please don't curse farmers with your mouth full.

Rex

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:27:09 (ZULU)

Mike M: In '88 one of my brothers was stationed near where you are. His E-6 housing allowance put him in a perfectly adequate condo. Newish, two stories, three bed, two baths, dining room, two car garage, patio, etc. His friends' places were similar. They were all E-6 and E-7. Good bunch of guys. Smart.

If - in some markets - housing allowances aren't keeping up, let's raise them.

I'd like to get some feedback from the active guys.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 19:07:38 (ZULU)

Rex's comment hits the nail square. Subsidies come out of the same pocket we pay other taxes & product costs out of. The beef price is exact on example. Unfortunately, as others mentioned, we like low product prices but are many times unwittingly paying for them in other ways. Screwed up system. Still the best there is. Been in a small family business before getting into LE, worked much harder then, no doubt about it. Why I appreciate things all the more now. Donations to the troops not tax deductible, oh well, not the reason I makes em. The fine men & women need our encouragement & support.

John Galt, heh heh, married a gal just like Dagney Taggart. Hooah!!

Carry on gentlemen, the course is noble and just.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 19:50:44 (ZULU)

I'm trying to find a site which lists the records for distance shooting. (ie: 308 at 100M .xx group, 308 500M x.xx group, 50cal 2000m xx.xx group, etc) I've about googled this to death and haven't come up with anything useful. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Semper Fi

Lt Jarr
Miramar, CA, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 20:32:36 (ZULU)

Aww Rex,

First of all, take this as you will, but I am a farmkid, grew up in farming, and lived around farmers and ranchers long enough to know better..

Come on now, farmers ain't never happy, always cryin' in their beer..If it ain't rainin, it's too dry to grow a crop, if it's raining it's too bloody wet...But I haven't seen too many NOT driving new Dodge pickups every other year regardless of what they grow, been a long time since I seen a poor farmer..

Subsidisation is a false market, it's a helping hand, and should be used as such..If we grew what we needed and not what the insurance will cover, we'd be a lot better off..Simple supply and demand economics..We are subsidising over production, and have been doing so as long as I have been alive..That's not healthy, we almost waste more than we use...One thing that has helped is the subsidisation of corn alcohol for fuels, to get the market started..Now that ethanol enriched fuels has taken off, at least back home, we should let the market rule..But the farmers aren't keen to letting the cash cow go, because then hell, they'd have to survive just like the rest of us in business..Problem is they are wasting so much time and effort on gathering subsidies which could be used on the commodities market, which is HUGE, is a relatively real market, and they do make money on both..You tell us we'll be paying 25-30 for a steak if we let subsidies go, bullshit..we are paying too much for the goods now because of over-subsidisation and bloody crop insurance, too many middlemen...How many farmers you know grow a crop in the hope that they will be wiped out, so insurance will cover the expense, they can call a loss, AND the government can help them out as well...More than you would like to admit I bet..Well that's not right..it's not fair..and it's not real..

Tell me not to curse farmers with my mouth full, well kiss my ass, when a business can be run into the ground on the backs of the taxpayer and you still come out ahead, it ain't right...Money for nothing and the chicks for free..

Seen it all too often, the poor farmer in the pub cryin in his beer...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 21:21:14 (ZULU)

Flash, its not 1988 and house prices are about five/seven times what they where here then. Give you an example a home that sold in 1994 for 120,000 just sold for 700,000 with not more than 20,000 worth of work being done. I know I lost in the bid war and saw what the owner had paid when purchased. Condos in SF go over one million. Homes there are all about 1.5million. Its crazy in California and guess what thats where a whole bunch of Marines are stationed.

All I am attempting to say is the troops need a good raise. We ask so much of them now and pay them squat. We all eat better than the guys protecting us.

As to wanting to hear from teh active guys, most of them are eating crap in Iraq or Afghanistan and wondering if they will make it back while we sit confortably on our asses debating if they get paid enough. Tell you what though, this week end I am on my way to teach a sniper class. I will ask the guys if they eat much steak while I am there.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 22:21:24 (ZULU)

"Ask and ye shall receive."

Fund was down into the red. Then today I get a box from an old pal from the days when I had a real job. The accompanying note had a $200.00 check clipped to it. We're back up to $197.20, and the box has a bunch of neat automotive tools that the motor pools will like.

Then got a call from Art. His printer has about finished the big poster for his shop.......he has his promotion for "Buy One For Yourself and One For the Troops" on it, and is posting Joe's wish list of other items that the troops need. He will act as a collection point.

God bless the common man. Sometimes, they're as uncommon as common sense, but I and CB seem to keep on running into them.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 22:50:54 (ZULU)

Forgot to add:

Also in the box from my pal was a signed, hard-cover first edition of "The Diesel Odyssey of Clessie Cummins" by his son, Lyle.

For me, that was like Christmas.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:04:02 (ZULU)

I previously posted about a "pawn shop rifle" - allegedly "Vietnam era" US Military, a Remington 700, pakerized, 7.62 24" barrel, stamped "U.S." above the serial number, with an olive green Redfield scope, Burris-type mounts, oiled wooden stock, no checkering. Several people replied via private e-mail, and indicated they could confirm the authenticity with SN information.

The SN is 3227XX. It looks interesting. I do not know if it is authentic, but the work was good.

Thanks.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:27:17 (ZULU)

There are very few things our government could propose that I would deem acceptable for a tax raise, but increased income for soldiers is certainly one of them. I even think our Congressional and Executive elected employees need a substantial raise, but for different reasons.

As for Off-Base housing and ownership. My buddy Tim is a Major. He makes a respectable living in the Army, but where he's doing well is in real estate. Tim buys condos wherever he's stationed with his family. When he gets a new gig, about every two years, he simply buys a new place near his new base and rents the old ones out.

He's got one near Fort Carson, one near Fort Leonard Wood, one near Ft. Bragg, one near Washington D.C. somewhere (I wasn't allowed to know where he was then) and one in Bloomington, IN while he was a foreign language school. There are those guys that buy with there money, and those guys that rent for the same amount.

As for enlisted men, they need better family housing. I'd live with a tax increase for it, the problem is subsidized housing tends to turn into slums no matter who's in it. Then it becomes a problem.

I'd like to see the raise if for nothing else than to help retain some troops for longer ups. I'd like for our political offices to attract more qualified candidates. That's why I'd like to give politicians a raise.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:53:50 (ZULU)

My take on military pay:

We pay them with public monies from the public fund then tax them to put it back into public fund. How stupid is that?

If we really want to give the military a raise, try not taxing them at all. No income tax. Just fill out a military tax form, such as naming it the 1040-M, that says, "I'm me, here's my social, and I am in the Army, stationed at so-and-so post, hold the rank of...." Simple. Of course, simple and the federal government are oil and water.

Hank
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 02:58:52 (ZULU)

Instead of taxing income, savings and investments how would it work to only tax consumption. National sales tax, money goes straight to the treasurey, no need for IRS or filing taxes. Sliding scale, common items none or low rate, fancier the expenditure the higher the rate. Corporations pay also.I like the idea that military pays no tax, makes sense. What do you all think?

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 03:49:30 (ZULU)

Fred,thats called a "goods and services tax" or GST here in Aus and a "v.a.t,value added tax" in other countries, and here, it sux.We were told the income tax would be lowered, it wasnt,we were told the "indirect taxes" would be done away with or lowered, they werent.The point is the gubmint cant be trusted to do the right thing with the systems in place now, they cant be trusted to bring in a newer fairer system.We see huge corporations paying next to nothing and folk just above the breadline paying 25% income tax and around another 40% indirect tax on fuel,food,clothing etc.

I tend to think J.R aint to far from the mark on his asessment of ag subsidies.good for the getter but bad in the big picture,especially for the "trading partners".

On a happier note,Dad and my boys,12 and 8, and I went deer huntin on the weekend,found some, but couldnt get a decent shot, so we gotta try again :) During the zeroing phase, Mr12 had a shot of the 6.5 swede,first time,nailed a fist sized rock at 110 metres.A Dad and Grandfather grinnin like fools all the way back to the house.life is good.

later lads

G.W

Gavan Willis
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 04:50:07 (ZULU)

Hank & Fred,

Both ideas sound good to me. For Military you pay no taxes on anything you purchase. Just show your Military I.D. card.

Nah..., probably too simple.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 04:52:01 (ZULU)

I'm looking for a smith to do some work on my Kimber single stack 1911. If any of you guys have one you like please let me know.

I learned a valuable lesson this weekend. I was trying to call in some coyotes the way Bill explained it to me. Tried three or four spots on the ranch Saturday morning with no luck but that's not the point. I guess I need to pay closer attention when setting up my hide and pulling brush and branches around myself. I've never gotten poison oak before so I thought I was immune to it but I must have found some. My hands look like I have a disease of some kind. I want to scratch them with a wire brush and soak them in clorox. But that's not the worst of it. It was a hot day...I was drinking lots of water...Yeah...That's right...I got it there too! I told her about Brian's advice of "soaking it in cider" but it didn't go over too well. Man this is misery.

Marc S
CV, CA, - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 05:15:35 (ZULU)

Well i don't know about US troops bieng under paid, but the British troops certainly are underpaid in comparison to thier civilian counter parts. Soldiers living overseas with thier families recieve a living overseas allowance, this is to help off set stuff like large telephone bills to keep in touch with family, extra expense of travel to go back home for visists, and shit like that. If a soldier then deploys to NI Iraq or whereever they then loose the biggest part of this LOA, meaning that they are loosing money to go into harms way, sure they get separation allowance and in some cases "dangerouse activities pay" but it never covers the gap in the LOA. Troops stationed in the UK don't get the LOA obviously, but they are on lower pay anyway and don't have the tax free shopping benefits and tax free fuel like the guy abroad do.I always wondered why the hell we had to pay income tax, like paying part of your own damn wages to me. Hell i remember when i was stationed in Colchester, the Gov't demanded Poll Tax ( for emptying trash cans, keeping paths and roads cleen, providing a fire service/policeservice etc) damn, we cleaned our own camp, had a garrison military fire brigade and a regimental MP, but the Govt wanted me, living in a 6ft x6ft space in a room designed for 8 but with 9 occupants to pay the same damn poll tax as the civie down the road in his semi detached mansion, screw that i thought and didn't pay, luckily i got posted to Germany just before they took about 75% of 19 Inf Bde to court for non payment, there after the tax was removed at source from your pay.

Bieng a soldier in the UK sucks as far as pay goes when you consider what they have to do to earn thier money. same goes for the Police, Nurses, Firemen any one who does a shitty job, that realy serve the public, not like these damn politician pen pushers, seems to get the thin end of the wedge.

JR, that farmers new landrover in the UK usualy belongs the bank, the EEC screwed farming in the UK, and cheap imported produce has been screwing it ever since, sure they get paid to grow nothing in the set aside programme, and get subsidies, but Gov't policy makes many farmers part time redundant, the whole situation is a mess and thereare too many fiddles in the food chaín that lead to making extra money at the expense of quality and ultimately our health.. rather than subsidise farmers to grow nothing it would be better to have them grow to capacity,stop all imports of stuff we can grow our selves, subsidise the price in the shops to make the produce affordable to you and me and then ship of any excess to places that need food in return for them behaving thier selves and not bieng anti western..

Much needs sorting out. Soldiers Cops and Nurses need paying more right now. and hell so do i.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 06:29:11 (ZULU)

Bravo: The Altama's soles are the achilles' heal. Ha. I'd bet they were tested at Aberdeen or Natick (maybe both)--rocky loam or sandy clay in a temperate climate. All was well---they held up fine, and so they should for you in a similar environment. Now, here in the heat we have a different issue. The soles just melt right off these things---they chunk away, heels fall off, basically rot the rubber all to hell. They go away fast--surprisingly fast; and the Bellevilles do not have this problem at all. In the 'Stan, the altama boot separates along the lower edges of the suede and the soles; due to jagged roch-wear. Now, having been to the Big Island; I do not know of any boot that stands up to that kind of abuse. I walked out of new jungle boots inside of 30 days---while jungles manage other places just fine. So, the rocky-abrasion-hell is a wash for all boot designs. That leaves the desert as this design's weakness. Considering this is a desert boot---you'd think the rubber compound would be a bit more resistant to sandy-HOT abuse. Other compounds seem to do better...and that to me is just freakin' absurd! I say dye them all dark brown and issue them in lieu of black boots stateside; where they seem to hold up fine! Then, buy these Bellevilles for general issue for the desert. I heard it said the bellevilles cost twice as much. I've seen soldiers go through three and four pair of Altamas (routinely for grunts, almost as many for everyone else) in less than a year. You do the math. Heheh.

On the Mags: Dudes, Easy Rider is a violation of GO 1A; it has resulted in numerous FG Grade AR-15s and more than a few summary courts. If there is any nudity---don't send the mag into the CENTCOM AOR. They treat it just like an alcohol infraction. BTW---some of the reservists and a few active guys "dried out" over here---some painfully. With any luck, a good thing may come from this silly rule. I believe in tightly controlled consumption where appropriate ( rear base camps, refit, r&r etc---not on the lines of course). Some tell me "you can't control it (drinking), so why even try...?" To which I reply: "You are absolutely right...let's get rid of all CAT 1A explosives since we cannot control them and they are sooooo dangerous." I appreciated the candor from my NCOs that two beers brought to a briefing held after duty hours. And, after being keyed up for a month or two---I appreciated the same two beers' relaxing effects that made sleep all the easier in spite of the tensions of the recent past. Others have differing opinions. But, with discipline, we had beer taps in our mess halls and beer machines in our day rooms for years---never once saw anyone buy one or pull one before top said "OK" in the light infantry units. Ha. The cav, well maybe those guys ought not be allowed alcohol under any circumstances. Lack of discipline = abuses (in mech inf., not cav---cav was just plum nutzo). Solution? Nuke the commander if he let's drinking get outta hand. A bit o' rant eh? Much ado bout nuthin too.

LT Chip: I am with you 100%. A central government does one thing well: Common Defense. The rest, well it is watered down at that level by special interests---so it is less than effecient. Education for example. Best left to the county with the state maybe "leveling the playing field" with subsidies for poorer counties. But, all decisions on curriculumn and content---make it at the level where we can reach out and touch them. Accountability comes fast on a first name basis....and the feds' anonymity is the cover for fraud waste and abuse. Power down, folks. Get the important small shit in the hands of the local voter and keep washington out of our back yards. Hear-hear. Leave the big shit, like standing armies---in washington though. They handle that pretty good.

As for taxes---well, I am all for the flat tax. To each according to the sense of ownership through a stake. No more freeloaders! The evil rich will pay more just because "10% of more" is more than "10% of less." Besides, who do want paying your salary? A guy who has 5 grand to spare each year, or a dude with 50 grand extra? Now, we pick the 50 grand....and then along comes the government and levies a tax....on us poor 50-grand earners---because that dude paying us ain't gonna take a pay cut....is he? We will....Like taxing corporations---do you think that tax doesn't show up on the price of goods? Yeah, right.

My god....we are basically a bunch of freakin idiots in this country.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 11:24:55 (ZULU)

CDC,

Living on base is not as easy as you'd think. At FTCKY there is at least a 13 month waiting list. Apartments run about $600 a month. BAH for an E4 or lower used to be $395 with a $15 VHA. That leaves an E-4, who makes about $1300 a month after taxes, to use more than half their income to live off base while they wait for housing.

Did we starve. Most of us didn't. But it was a miserable exsistance, always waiting for some bill to go unpaid and have the commander called.

My youngest brother got back from Iraq yesterday. He's starting to get on his feet with E5 pay. He's going to HI in march to a new unit, and I think the shock of what stuff costs there is going to suprize him.

He waorked along side contractors who make $15,000 a month tax free. One of his guys got out and was back as a contractor 2 months later. $125,000 a year tax free for the same job.

COLA helps, but you only get a good COLA OCONUS unless you're someplace like D.C.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but of all I've read I like the idea of soldiers paying no taxes, on anything the best so far. For that matter let's take the tax off Social Security again. Probably never happen,, to many Senetors $100,000 a month retirement funds and lifetime health care to fund.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 11:43:50 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt - Well yes I would love to move over if I could get a reasonable Job Texas sounds a great place. But my partner has kids here and she doesn’t want to move, what we have to put up with.

JR – Welcome to the UK beaurocracy and as for letter telling them your not a psychopath, your in the UK if you want to own a weapon you must be one. (sorry police logic)

Dry
UK - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 12:16:42 (ZULU)

Farm subsidies...Frankly, I am suspicious of these. I would push for them with all my strength---if they were going where they were originally intended---the single-owner/operator; or the family farm. The agri-corps seem to be getting some of this---and that is bothersome on the face of it. Hit me offline if my brush on the topic is screwed up---I really haven't dugg into it (yet--I have land now).

Steve: got the box....it is exactly the one that I used in ranger school and the Q...damned fine tool.

Larry P: Hit me offline with your mailing addy. The tees have arrived. You get a free HD hat too; they were on sale. I got two of everything; I liked them myself. Heheh.

Bruce: I have to go rescue the NM Flag out at Camp VA---I dropped it off two days ago to be flown there. Once I do, I have a nice collection of "stuff" for ya. People have been tossing me trinkets (coins, patches, etc) for you. Soon, it will go out soon. So long as I can get away from this dang desk....

Dudes, The Housing allowance is set by grade, by market. In some areas (Fayetteville, NC for example) where the military is the only game in town---raising BAH precedes a raise in rent by only hours.

In other areas, a better solution is to close the damned base. If you have to pay a kid more in BAH than he makes in base pay just to get a trailer---close the base and expand FT Rucker, AL---where 300 bucks gets ya a 3 bedroom ranch with a pool. It makes no sense to quarter troops in DC or CA, NY or Mass; except the politicians who would rather screw the entire country (costs) to save a few hundred jobs and his ass. Inefficient basing is killing us. You want to know why it took so freakin' long to buy enough body armor? Because all our money is dumping into FT Lewis and other high cost areas.

Ooops. a rant. I, uh, let it get away...

Joe M

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 12:46:47 (ZULU)

Mil pay.

It aint all the dudeds in the mil that are underpaid. Its the junior enlisted that get the shitty deal. Check out the pay scale if you can find one. Most of the officer ranks are well paid. But the juniors have a real problem when you have to decide whether to buy a new uniform shirt for an inspection or feed your family this week.

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 13:18:37 (ZULU)

Dudes, I like this thread today. Troopers need more dough, that's fer sure. been there, done that. But honestly---I do not need "more" and if I want more---I'll go out and earn it by stepping up a grade. I make plenty (but don't cut it none---the wife would flip out). But that is me....the soldier's do not have the financial horsepower to say that. The next BRAC needs to look at this issue hard; COLA areas may not be a great place to billet soldiers. But bases are cash-cows; nobody in office will give one up willingly. It'll be a pie-fight. Next, step up lower-enlisted pay by 10%, or kill tax burdens on the first 25K of salary. Then, kick pay way up at the E5 level---make that a huge pay raise (incentive) for the additional challenge of leadership. 50% to 100% more than E4s, then step up 10% through the ranks, 10% through the years. As for officers, give LTs and CPTs a modest boost, and let the "first 25K tax-exclusion" give a little bit for all.

BTW--The tax exclusion idea will be on everyone's mind when the troops come home to the pay cuts. I just hope that they haven't budgeted the extra pays---ya know, bought a car they can't afford or got in too deep on a house....it could get ugly. These kids will lose a grand a month in most cases once they leave here.

Talkative today...

Joe M

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 13:20:13 (ZULU)

JR,

If farming is sooo good, why are you not farming?

Rex.

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 14:14:02 (ZULU)

Boys,

This thread concerning how to increase pay to our troops has morphed into an arena about which I have quite a bit of experience. I have to let you all in on a little secret. An income tax increase is not the solution. You see, here in the good ole US, every penny of personal income tax money collected by the government goes straight into paying a part of the interest on the national debt. They theorize that our income tax money pays less than 4% of the interest on the national debt. Not one penny goes toward ANYTHING else. Now the national debt is so complicated that one can only theorize on what it actually is. No one could estimate within a trillion dollars what it is because it changes by billions of dollars everyday. (Sidenote: A very obscure law in the US Code makes it a crime for a citizen of the US to question the national debt.) So no matter how much they decide to raise income taxes, none of that increase will go toward pay increases for anyone, anywhere. A tax increase only serves to reduce everyone's pay because the government produces NOTHING. This is a very important concept to understand. We are paying them to take money from someone who earned it and give it to someone who didn't. As harsh as that sounds, it is the truth. The only thing a tax increase does, is give the federal government more control over your economic life. Why do you think the Income tax laws change so much every year? A Thousand of pages of tax law changes every year. They reduce one deduction and raise another. What does this accomplish? It keeps a certain number of taxpayers within certain parameters. This is called social and economic engineering. It is the only reason for the existence of the income tax. It allows corrupt politicians to retain control of the people through fear and intimidation. They are already so far outside of their Constitutionally limited powers that we are walking the line of being a Socialist state like every other country in the world(read the Patriot Act). Here is a question for you to ponder. If our tax money goes only to pay a very small part of a debt that no one can figure out and we are not allowed to question, then is it really necessary? After all, any other time the federal government needs money, they just print it.

Matt K.
Chattanooga, TN, - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 14:26:31 (ZULU)

Rant coming...

When I joined/was in the service, some one was taxed to pay me my pittance.

My pay was taxed (paying towards my own salary).

Once I 'retired' (changed jobs), my 'retirement/retainer pay' was taxed.

I was paying MORE tax on my new/different/civilian job than I received for retirement/retainer pay.

How many times is the same dollar taxed????

I was stationed at Key West, Florida as a 'full Fleet E-3' and could not get military housing... there was over a year waiting list.

I think all military and military retirement/retainer pay should NOT be taxed, or at least not taxed on the first $XX,XXX.00 of income.

When I transfered to the 'Fleet Reserve' (retired with less than 30 years total service), I had just gone over 20 years of service and my Base pay when up to a whopping $1007.00 (1979). I did not receive 'Sea Pay' unless I was onboard a ship, which was $22.50 per month. I don't remember what BAQ (basic allowance for quarters - what I got for living off base) was, but it wasn't a hell of a lot. Base pay for an E-7 with 20 years service is TRIPLE that now. I also did not get 'Submarine pay' (hazardous duty pay) unless I was on a sub. Now, if you go to shore duty from a sub and intend to return to a sub, you get Sub pay while on shore duty.

Here's a link to current pay scales:

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,30821-mil_status_retired-1,00.html

Rant off

Sharon

Larry J. porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, U. S. of A!!!! - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 15:02:04 (ZULU)

WARNING: I'm getting returned emails that I didn't send. Some *ss-whipe has my addy. Don't open anything from me unless I post here saying it's coming.

Sorry for the trouble.

Bill

Edited to add: Joe M. you got mail.

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 15:20:33 (ZULU)

Rex,

I would farm, but it either rains too much or not enough.. Ha, don't get too excited about the rant, I have the same tongue in cheek conversation with my best good buddy back home who's family owns more acreage in Beadle and Hand county than the South of Scotland...Not meant to be offensive to farmers or farming, I get a kick out of 'em, and respect what they do for a living..If it wasn't for farmers I wouldn't have anywhere decent to hunt, all that CRP ground ya know, ha...The market and farm policy does need to change, because Brazil and South America will end up the Western world's breadbasket very quickly....That's where corporate farming is staking it's claim..

Pete,

If the EEC levelled the playing field on farm subsidies towards the UK, they couldn't call us ros' bif's anymore..Zee EEC has a plan for distributing zee farming amongst zee Eurozone see, and the UK is not in the running...Remember the audacity of the French after the BSE 'scare' in the UK was considered done and over?? Part of the plan, man...Heck, we've all ready sold out on fishing rights, mining, manufacturing, farming's next...

Dry,

Yeah, I got that impression...

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 17:29:22 (ZULU)

Bill: Nothing--nada--no email. Try again.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 18:24:13 (ZULU)

Whoops; sorry I forgot the rule about sitting in the poison ivy!

There's another about putting your knee on the cactus.

I still can't call a coyote to save my life this year.

Mites got em all I guess.

I bought a buffalo gun but so far haven't found a buffalo herd either.

Rex; I ain't sure that would work. I was around on a farm before the subsidy. The first one I remember they called, "The Soil Bank". Wheat and Cotton was about the same price today though and everything else has increased 10 fold so you might be right. Only thing I don't quite get is that we are paying CRP for land set aside money to farmers who are irrigating and depleting the water sources at a record rate on other land right beside it and paying jacked up prices for butane to run the engines. And others who have retired on CRP payments...and sold all their machinery after it's written off and still buy some machinery to not farm with.... and all in the name of reducing production. I know if seems to be working for them and I love CRP ground for hunting and lots of other reasons. (keeps the dust down for one). Just don't make a lot of sense to me the way they do it. Stand aside there I wanna fill up my car with that funny colored Diesel Fuel.

Mike I had a uncle (ex navy) who lived down San Pedro in a modest little house and worked for the P.O. He sold it for 2.1 million and retired back here in God's country. You might outta think about that. There ain't no Arizona any more.... or so the song says.

Brogers
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 19:03:29 (ZULU)

"The cav, well maybe those guys ought not be allowed alcohol under any circumstances. "

HEY, WAITAMINIT!

Wadya mean no beer for the Cav! You ain't a communist is ya?!?

CSM, take that man's Stetson!

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 19:24:18 (ZULU)

Undude,

I'm interested in getting one of those SS10x42M scopes for Kelly's gun. IF they are really made for SWFA and not Tasco, as per SWFA's comment.

If this is true, and any service is needed, the scope would be shipped back to SWFA right?

The world has one more United States MARINE ; )

Jarhead nephew #2 came home Saturday after finishing basic.

In spite of a case of food poisoning, and I think he came home with walking pneumonia (he's at the Doc's office now) he finished.

I'm so proud I could bust!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)

Capitalism does not include subsidizing anything.

I can understand some short term funding for national defense interests, but I am against everything else.

There is no 'lobby' out there looking out for me, and I support equal rights for everyone to my entitlement (absolutely nothing)... get hold of your boot straps and start pulling.

Military pay...I think we should start by putting in place a system that sets the Gold Standard of care when the folks that go in harm's way get hurt or killed. Soldiers should go into battle knowing their family will be taken care of should something happen... they should be confident that should they be wounded or crippled while doing their job, that they will get GREAT care and will have the financial support they have earned for their sacrifice.

The same should be done for cops, firemen and anyone else that goes in harm's way in service to the citizens of our nation.

medicjim
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 20:35:07 (ZULU)

Post deleted.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 00:39:56 (ZULU)

Rex - OK - I'll bite (pun intended) - I beg to differ with your claim -sans analysis - on how eliminating the farm subsidies and price regulations would increase the cost of food. We pay more than we should for our food in two ways.

First - Milk and sugar and other foods have prices SET by the government! That is just plain insane especially when you consider that these prices are up to 3x the world average for these commodities. These price regulations are effectively a food tax that we all pay every time we buy a gallon of milk.

Furthermore the subsidy system is essentially another food tax - the self perpetuating system works like this- prices drop due to overproduction - we pay farmers to over produce further - then prices drop more. The government (taxpayer) picks up the tab. Well - I'd rather pay a fair market price for a chunk of dead cow than to have the government trying to manipulate the supply and demand. Every time the government tries to manipulate the economy it fails and the consumer loses. (Try getting produce in the USSR of the 50s-90's.) So, the government pays the farmers- with our money - we pay the farmers- indirectly paying more for our food.

The market will decide what the right price is. If beef goes up upon being deregulated and de-subsidized then more cattlemen suddenly appear, while fewer people get McD's until the price comes down. Funny how that works.

I say the farmers should join the free market - those of us who are already here will welcome them!

----------------------------------------

NOW - on the issue of paying our troopers more just want to be clear where I stand - I am all for it! I personally would double the salaries of our entire force across the board and increase combat zone pay bonuses 5 fold. These men and women deserve our support - they serve a legitimate government function that is just about the only thing morally sound to take citizen's property to support.

You already know how I'd pay for that.

Hell- a contractor driving a truck in Iraq is making $120,000 per year and pays no tax on it - good for them. They don't have to engage the enemy (on purpose) and can leave when they want. Our troops deserve some parity here.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:04:06 (ZULU)

"Few civilians would put up with hours and working conditions that peace time combat soldiers and Marines take for granted."

Tell that to a forest firefighter after a busy season.

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:43:38 (ZULU)

In an earlier post I implied that combat soldiers do hard work over long periods under bad conditions. I withdraw that claim.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:08:41 (ZULU)

CDC did say "Few civilians" not "no civilians".

Guys fighting forest fires are indeed in the same class as grunts in my book.

Not that there needs to be some sort of score rating on how hard-core your job is.

General point CDC was making is still valid. Uniformed servicemen do tougher jobs in harsher conditions than the vast majority of civies.

I recall when I when PCSed to Ft. Livingroom - my first impression of my fellow office workers was that they were pogues complainng about waiting a few minutes for the elevator or that the air conditioning was sub-par.

BTW -didn't take me long to be the same way but at least I know better.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:28:06 (ZULU)

Sorry Medicjim and LTChip:

Sorry guys...I take exception that forest fighters have it as bad as a grunt.

The fire is not making a determined effort to kill him; the grunt's enemy is a thinking, sometimes equally skilled top predator with ill intent. That fire lacks most of those characteristics. That fire may get a firefighter here and there---but it wasn't personal; just bid'ness. The enemy, on the other hand, is trying to kill, goes out of his way in fact to kill---and that is a world of difference.

I might see a comparrison with a LEO vs. a psycho---but then, it ain't every day that a freak wants you dead. The enemy seems to always want that while at war...

"Dying is no way to make a living, boy..." I guess the difference to me lies in intent: Can it kill you vs does it really, really, really want to kill you at all costs. To me--I find that it is a difference.

BTW--In 1989 in Idaho, my team and I got pulled out of a river by a CH47 after running down a draw with a the fire ahead of us on both ridges on our left and right. Up til then, firefighting seemed pretty much like hard labor. After, it was a terrifying thing when you felt the breeze hesitate or shift. But it simply ain't the same as having someone shooting at you. That fire screwed up a really fun training opportunity we had with 20th SFG too; that was a great UW scenario while it lasted....

Joe M

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 06:51:40 (ZULU)

I always believed that the average wage(civilain) in the USA was slightly above what it is here in Europe or the UK. I estimate that the average family man( school education, no degree, non specialist, lets say welder, driver, with an aprenticeship or equivalent behind him) here in Germany earns around 2000 euro's per month ( thats $2380 ish).Gross, before all stoppages.and usualy they recieve 13 months salary per year. I figure in the UK the same guy would earn maybe about the same at 330 pounds per week making it about 17000 GBP per year.( how does that compare Jon? Dry? JR?)

A German Army private earns about 1300 euro a month netto($1500)

a Staff Sergeant around 1800 euro netto.($2100)

They will recieve more if sent on operations anywhere in the world.

and from the soldier magazine in the UK:

CONTINUOUS Attitude Surveys throughout 2002-03 indicated that Service personnel were, on balance, satisfied with life in the Armed Forces and particularly appreciated the job satisfaction, job security and responsibility. Important areas of dissatisfaction included the impact of high commitment levels on separation.

While pay generally was considered satisfactory, survey results indicated a level of dissatisfaction in relation to skills, responsibility and hours worked.

MINIMUM WAGE: On average, junior ranks worked 45.8 hours a week in 2002-03. National minimum wage rates would produce pay of £206.10 for those aged 21 and over and £174.04 for under-21s. The minimum weekly pay for privates and equivalents in £250.18, significantly above the national minimum wage. Junior ranks’ rates could fall below the minimum rate, however, were they consistently to work 55 hours or more a week (over 21s) or 65 hours or more (under 21s).

Police Pay: 1 pound is 1.8 dollars approx

Pay

Police pay is reviewed every year. Here are the figures for 2003/4:

Constable's Pay

Completed years of service in rank

Annual salary with effect

from 1st April 2003

On commencing service 19,227

On completion of initial training period 21,462

2 22,707 (a)

3 23,298

4 24,096

5 24,852

6 25,650

7 26,382

8 27,039

9 27,903

10 28,914

11 29,589

12 30,186 (b)

(a) All officers move to this salary point on completion of two years' service as a constable.

(b) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competence related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Sergeant’s Pay

Completed years of service in rank

Annual salary with effect

from 1st April 2003

0 30,186

1 31,221

2 32,268

3 32,958

4 33,927 (a)

(a) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competency related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Inspector’s Pay

The pay scale for an Inspector ranges from £38,679 (£40,374 in London) for a newly promoted Inspector to £41,952 (a) (£43,659) (a) for an Inspector with three completed years of service in rank.

(a) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competence related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Promotion

Our promotion policy provides everyone with the same opportunities and if you’re ambitious, we can help you move up the career ladder with training and encouragement at every level. We also provide a High Potential Development Scheme, providing a fast-track route to some of the most challenging work within the police service.

more on our High Potential Development scheme

Pensions

Our pensions scheme offers generous benefits, with the option of transferring previous pensions to our scheme. It’s also worth noting that police officers are contracted out of the earnings related part of the State Pension Scheme, so National Insurance contributions are paid at the lower, contracted out rate.

more on Pensions

Flexible Working Conditions

The normal working week is 40 hours on a shift basis. Shift patterns vary between forces. All ranks below superintendent are entitled to two rest days a week and compensation if required to work over those two days. They are also entitled to leave or compensation in lieu of public holidays.

Nurses:

4. NURSES PAY AND BENEFITS

Nurses Pay Scales from April 2003

With effect from 1 April 2003 national salary scales for nurses, midwives and health visitors will be increased by 3.225%.

Pay Rates Outside of London

Grades in italics indicates inclusion of discretionary points (which are payable beyond the standard upper limit)

Grade A (Age 18+) Auxiliary & Assistants

From £10,050 to £12,615

Grade B Auxiliary & Assistants

From £11,825 to £13,920

Grade C Enrolled & Auxiliary

From £13,465 to £16,525

Grade D Newly Qualified Nurses

From £16,525 to £18,240

Grade E Experienced Staff Nurse (Midwives normally start at this grade)

From £17,660 to £21,325

Grade F Senior Nurse

From £19,585 to £24,455

Grade F Senior Nurse

From £24,905 to £25,360

Grade G Sister/Charge Nurse (Health Visitors normally start at this grade)

From £23,110 to £27,190

Grade G Senior/Charge Nurse

From £27,655 to £28,125

Grade H Nurse Specialist

From £25,815 to £30,005

Grade H Nurse Specialist

From £30,480 to £30,960

Grade H Modern Matron

From £25,815 to £30,960

Grade I Nurse Specialist

From £28,590 to £32,860

Grade I Nurse Specialist

From £33,340 to £33,820

Grade I Modern Matron

From £28,590 to £33,820

Nurse/Midwife/Health Visitor Consultants

From £35,035 to £48,185

London Allowances

Inner London

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £3,333 pa

Outer London

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £2,604 pa

Fringe Zone

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £729 pa

Cost of Living Supplement

From 1st April 2002 all qualified nurses (grade C and above) and AHPs working in London and the South East will benefit from Cost of Living Supplements. Eligible staff working in London receive an additional payment of 4% of basic salary, up to a maximum of £1000. Outside London eligible staff receive 2.5% of salary, up to a maximum of £600.

Fire Service:

Firefighter £15,831 - £20,121

Leading Firefighter £21,546 - £22,434

Sub Officer £22,092 - £23,832

Station Officer £25,629 - £27,639

Assistant Divisional Officer £27,012 - £28,535

Divisional Officer III £28,932 - £31,023

Divisional Officer II £30,720 - £34,056

Divisional Officer I £33,933 - £36,375

Senior Divisional Officer £36,528 - £39,402

so if we take a private soldier, a PC, a fire fighter and a Nurse. all trained. maybe 2 years service we have

Soldier maybe 14000-15000 GBP

PC 21000 GBP

Fireman 17000-18000

Nurse 18000

are our soldiers under paid? well if they do anything but sit in an office and push buttons or sweep the parade square then i'd say yep you bet..

for the unsociable hours and the shit not to mention the possible danger in varying degrees that all 4 of these professions have to put up with, then i'd say we should be looking at cutting what we pay politicians drasticaly and paying the people who realy SERVE the Community and country a wage that reflects what they do for us.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 09:21:17 (ZULU)

P.S.

don't forget that as a soldier you will also be called upon to cover for other career/job types when the others go on strike to demand better pay and conditions, but you are unable to go on strike, or to demand anything.

In my time as a soldier I :

Covered as a fireman when the fire Brigade had a local strike.

Covered as an Ambulance driver/paramedic when the ambulance service held a national strike.

Covered as a prison officer when the prison service went on strike.

Covered refuse collection when the local dustbin men went on strike.

Re-enforced police numbers policing certain demonstrations, marches etc.

Re-enforced Fire Service numbers during floods, forest fires, hurricanes/storms. Provided security at international airports and ferry Terminals.

Add all that to getting shot at, bieng separated from family and friends for long periods of time, not knowing when your next meal is going to be some of the time, not knowing when your next day off will be, not knowing when you will actually see family again,excessive working hours, poor accomodation, sub standard food, guard/security duties, adverse weather conditions, working out side, often with poor equipment..

its no wonder that they have retention and recruitment problems.

I joined as a patriot, left as a sceptic, and sure as hell wouldn't put my kneck on the line these days for what they offer in terms of pay , i was never there for the pay though, i had other reasons, i just wouldn't stick my kneck out carrying out the orders of a Government and Politicians who expect me, whilst ensuring the freedoms and liberty of citizens of foriegn countries, to put up with my freedoms and liberties bieng attacked, restricted and outlawed at home, whilst i am away serving. Then when i eventualy come home i find that i am classed as a second class citizen, i can join the queue for housing, behind all the immigrants, unemployed, single mums and drug addicts, i can't claim any benefits because i may recieve a miserable army pension or have recieved a small lump sum upon retirement, i may find it difficult to find employment because i have been bypassed in experience and qualifications by my civilian counterpart.

But then i'm just bitter abd twisted, and if they expect young men and women to serve thier country then the country should provide something in return.some thing more than they are recieving nowadays..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 09:56:11 (ZULU)

4 i's,

Congrats on the 2nd nephew, hope he's feelin better today.

Pete L.

Did ya get the Titanium or Stainless 700? I've put another hundred or so rounds thru the Titanium one and am very pleased. It appears to even cool a little faster with the deep fluted barrel. The recoil has become a non-issue. It has replaced the LTR as Bear rifle for this season.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:02:10 (ZULU)

Ref: AR-10

A while back George Gardener built me an AR-10. I've just now gotten around to shooting it and learning it. It is a real pleasure to use. It's accurate to about .75 moa or a little better and seems to function pretty well. I've been using Lapua 185 grain match ammunition and the muzzle velocity averages 2,520. My computer tells me that with a BC of around .510 the bullets should stay supersonic to 1,000 yards. I've got an adjustable sloped base on the rifle with an M3LR so there is over 50 minutes of elevation beyond my 100 yard zero. This Saturday I'll shoot the second relay at the 1,000 yard club with it to see how it does "at the grand". (The first relay is reserved for my 6.5x.284 which is also a GAP rifle.)

Ref: Travel

I'm back on the road again next week and the week after I'll be in Nashville and Roanoke. If there are any Rosterfarians in those locations that would like to hook up for dinner and shooting talk contact me.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:22:38 (ZULU)

Ref BBC news web site Hay look we get to live longer than you but earn $430502 less in our lifetime (lucky Sods)

This is what is listed but I belive all a little low on wages

USA

Population: 291 million

Life expectancy: 74 years (men), 80 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: US $34,280 (World Bank, 2001)

Population: 59.2 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 76 years (men), 81 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $25,120 (World Bank, 2001)

Germany

Population: 82.5 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 75 years (men), 81 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $23,560 (World Bank, 2001)

France

Population: 60.1 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 75 years (men), 83 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $22,730 (World Bank, 2001)

Iraq

Population: 25.1 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 59 years (men), 62 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: n/a

Saudi Arabia

Population: 24.2 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 71 years (men), 74 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: US $8,460 (World Bank, 2001)

Dry
UK - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:45:43 (ZULU)

Attempts to make comparisons of salaries or wages between areas, even those within the same country, much less between countries, need to take more than just the raw numbers into account. For a comparison to be valid, one must also consider at least tax rates and cost of living. A given amount in Texas, for example, will buy much more than it will in California, where real estate prices and taxes are higher. Tax rates in Europe tend to be higher than in the U.S., while in Saudi Arabia there aren't any. And GNI per capital cannot be compared to average annual income.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:23:03 (ZULU)

John(acehigh), i handed over the marlin this morning, sad to see it go.. and i pick up the stainless remington this evening, sold the marlin for the same as i bought the remington. now if i can get the damn auto feed on the lathe to work again i may just flute the bolt, the spiral flute is just another multi start thread..

Dry, well i am above avareage earnings at least.. but i only earn 3/4 here in kraut land of what i would earn doing the same job for a the Govt or TV company in Holland or the UK. I stay here and earn ten grand less a year because there are no damn pigs or deer in holland that are huntable worth mentioning,and Holland would be nearer home than where i work now. and if i worked in the UK i would have to bloody fly back and forth to Germany to get home to the family. and besides i like schnitzels and weizen bier.

I went to the local authority yesterday to de register the marlin and register the remington, when all the paper work shuffeling was done i asked for the form to apply for special permission to possess a moderator, the lady in the office looked at me as if i was osama bin laden and flatly refused to hand over the damn paper work for me to apply, then i went on to explain why i wanted a moderator, she had a look of horror on her face, she then said, you can apply for a moderator but i'm telling you now the application will be refused so its a waste of money, we have had orders from above not to pass any applications for possession of moderators, and once you apply you will your name will become highlighted and you will be constantly scrutinised and if ever there is a problem they will be on you like a ton of bricks, all because YOU applied for a moderator..

but thats ridiculouse i said.. now if you refuse my application then when i eventualy have a hearing loss from hunting without hearing protection, cos we all know you need all your senses to hunt, so hunting with ear defenders is impossible, the i will be able to sue this department for my hearing loss?

No No NO, this is Germany she says..

ah so Germany isn't part of the same Europe as the UK then because this European legislation on noise pollution and health and safety is where the use of moderators in the UK is coming from, says I.. or are you telling me that the Germans authorities are cherry picking bits of legislation to suit thier selves?

no answer.

The problem with the German authorities is that they watch to many James Bond films and have no idea what a moderated rifle sounds like.. have you ever fired a moderated fire arm? i asked..

blank look..

have you ever fired a firearm?

well eer no..

typical i said..

she the got on the defensive and had a go at me about wasting her time and that moderators where totaly in appropriate for shooting.

Eh?? eh?

i left the office with a disgusted look on my face..

burocrats and politicians..

who needs em..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:38:01 (ZULU)

FYI re: 185gr.-12.0 gram Scenar

I just weighed the first eleven out of a new box of 100, out of curiosity, not to actually sort them, or so I thought.

2-185.0

3-185.2

5-185.3

1-185.4

Now I am tempted to sort 'em! One of the 185.2's was fluctuating between .1 and .2 but from Lapua I was suprised at the variance.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:46:00 (ZULU)

Ref: Bullet weights

John, are you using a digital scale? Beware Hysteresis!!! The affordable digital scales can be pathological liars.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:59:13 (ZULU)

Joe, posted..."The fire is not making a determined effort to kill him;"

HE's close enough to be technically accurate but After a few "firefights" I wonder if that statement is totally acceptable but it's technically accurate non-the-less. I haven't checked lately but on a percentage body count the highest risk job in the U.S.A. including soldiers fighting on foreign soil was a Volunteer Firefighter and this was way before 911. Maybe that's why they call these war skirmishes "Firefights". Either one is scary enough for me. By the way I think we are running a close race between 911 firemen lost and Soldiers in Iraq but the soldiers are winning fast if we don't catch on over there. Being an EMT or beat patrolman in some of these garden spot places in this country would make me wish I was back above timberline if I had to do that one too. I'd prefer not to go to a Restaurant in Israel either if I Planned on doing the rest of those 74 years.

Kevin' I hope that "inferior equipment" gets you by in those shoots! Good luck anyway! Psst.... (he's probably the one to bet on!)

I got wonder which seminar that Oakley gal attended or who taught Wild Bill Hickcock to shoot. Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson probably were just lucky that their opponents didn't have a couple of weeks training at Gunpoint Academy. (just kidding). Don't nobody get their britches in a bind. Schools are wonderful, I went to one for a couple of years and there I learned to read, write and become an Internet pest.

Seen the Alamo yet?

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 13:04:48 (ZULU)

All -

Just got a Call from Bruce Robinson (Mr. MildotMaster) on the road. He says he will be hard to get hold of for the next week or so. He said to have anyone that needs to get in touch him - to get hold of me (Ken) either via email or phone. I can get his contact info to you.

Take care all -

Prayers for the troops and troopers out there.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Vaq, USofA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 13:58:43 (ZULU)

Joe M: Once on Crossfire, Pat Buchanan and Barney Frank's sister agreed that "...there's nothing to walking around with a rifle...". Their total military experience consisted of watching a couple of reruns of "Combat!"

This becomes a bigger d**k contest with dog-catchers.

Forget it.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:03:28 (ZULU)

Bill, I bought it on DVD. The local merchants have an uncanny knack at piracy....

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:32:04 (ZULU)

Pete: Census Country? Now that is a new twist, even for here!

Heheh

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:34:12 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, please reread my post, especially the EXACT quote I pulled from CDC's post. Please note the words "peace time".

Soldier pay.... kill off a few pork programs and double every enlisted man's pay...LtChip nailed it. Mail the surplus back to the folks that paid too much in the first place. Done, no arguement from me... money well spent.

PeteR - Firefighters in the US cannot go on strike (at least in New Jersey). Volunteers are even subject to legal action if they fail to show up for fires en-mass.

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 15:16:39 (ZULU)

Jim, the military cannot strike and i ain't sure about the Police, i don't think they can either, but Nurses/medical staff, Fire Service, Prison Officers and every one else can.

The ambulance strike was was a hoot, mostly, got to stay in a hotel and even had a sundries allowance.. hell i still have the blue flashing liught from the ambulance i drove, squaddies and souveneers eh..

now on the opposite side of the coin, when the prison officers went on strike we ended up guarding prisoners in a make shift jail, that was once a prisoner of war camp, the " inmates had 4 men to a room and a common room with a TV, a shower and a toilet between 8 men, we squaddies where in tents and huts, 2 toilets (1 portable) and 2 showers between 60 blokes and no TV. The policemen who where drafted in where put up in hotels localy and recieved extra pay.. the soldiers always seem to get the shitty end of the stick and the thin end of the wedge.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 15:47:20 (ZULU)

So Disney's PC version of "The Alamo" is a hit? Leaving out Santa Anna's declaring himself Emperor is like leaving the tequila out of the margarita. Revisionist history makes me tired.

Bill: "...I learned to read,(and) write...".

I hate to be the one to break it to you.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 16:22:15 (ZULU)

CDC; Hell,it was only the second grade what do you expect? I apologize for your great ability to understand everything in the world except the words of a Redneck. My wife signs the checks what the hell do I want with a 3rd grade education? We Rednecks were code talkers in the last war didn't you hear about that?

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 16:32:32 (ZULU)

OFFICIAL 2004 DNC CONVENTION PROGRAM (for anybody that cares)

6:00pm - Opening flag burning ceremony.

6:30pm - Anti-war rally no. 1.

6:40pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

7:00pm - Tribute theme to France.

7:10pm - Collect offerings for al-Zawahri defense fund.

7:20pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast

7:25pm - Tribute theme to Spain.

7:45pm - Anti-war rally no. 2. (Moderated by Michael Moore)

8:00pm - John Kerry presents one side of the issues

8:25pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

8:30pm - Terrorist appeasement workshop.

9:00pm - Gay marriage ceremony.

9:30pm - * Intermission *

10:00pm - Flag burning ceremony no. 2.

10:15pm - Re-enactment of Kerry's fake medal toss.

10:30pm - Cameo by Dean 'Yeeearrrrrrrg!'

10:40pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

10:50pm - Pledge of allegiance to the UN.

11:00pm - Double gay marriage ceremony.

11:15pm - Maximizing Welfare workshop.

11:20pm - John Kerry presents the other side of the issues

11:30pm - 'Free Saddam' pep rally.

11:59pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

12:00am - Nomination of Democrat candidate.

----------------

>>>MK4, HA! I like it: "Gays, God and Guns." I’ve had the same “talk” with my congressman. Got a nice reply back this last time, he might have “gotten the message”. Still, it’s actions that matter, not words. We’ll see.<<<<<<<<<

The upcoming election will the ugliest yet. Not much of a prediction but a safe one. We need to start getting in the "battle" mentality of helping to get the vote out. The liberals will be pulling out their heaviest artillery yet (as if they knew what that meant).

----------------

On another note: I was flipping through the CBS, NBC,& ABC stations and stopped long enough to see an Army Colonel (not sure of his rank but just a guess) tell the news camera in regards to reports coming out of Iraq; "Turn the channel, turn the channel, turn the channel!"

So I did. Was good advice.

Oh yeah, "God Bless Fox News."

-------

Lito,

Leave them SASSy wimmen alone and post a few ;))))))

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:00:58 (ZULU)

Fox news is reporting heavy enemy calualties near Falluja...

Marines fought fierce battles Monday and Tuesday with insurgents in Karma, a village outside Fallujah. Some 100 gunmen were killed in battles in palm groves and over canals that were so intense that wounded Marines were sent to rejoin the fight.

"They ran in there with bandages and all," said Col. B.P. McCoy, commander of the 3rd Battalion.

Marines came under two heavy ambushes Tuesday, the best coordinated and largest guerrilla operations in days, said Capt. James Edge. Two Marines were killed Tuesday and two Monday, the military said.

Scott Smith
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:03:14 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussack - email sent through SC, no attachments

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:13:02 (ZULU)

This is tedious. If I ever post here again, I'll - at no charge - give Bill my .308 Winchester.

Bye.

Update: He replied that he had plenty of guns and didn't want it. After I foolishly posted again he appears to have edited out that statement.

Cute, huh?

I am mortified to have been involved in this conversation.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:26:31 (ZULU)

OK, Since you asked. I will be the first to admit that the farm subsidy program needs to be fixed. Question is how to do it? The program was originally put in place to prevent the nations farmers from all planting corn one year and all planting cotton next year because of the "Free Market". Since production cycles of crops are typically one year long, farmers don't have the luxury of changing their production schedules based on "Quarterly Reports"! In the 20's, the crop production would swing from on extreme to the other, one year beans, one year corn etc. Big brother says "we can fix this!" The subsidy program was started to compensate farmers for growing a balance of crops, not just the one that was bringing the best return at the time. Along with the subsidy came control of how much of each crop you were allowed to plant, all in the name of evening out the supply, and thus stabilizing the crop prices. At least that is how it got started. In 1973 wheat was sellng at $2.35 a bushell, the combine we used cost $8,000.00 used, diesel was .15 a gallon and a loaf of bread cost .15 to .25. The 230 acres of wheat land produced about 45 to 50 bushells per acre dryland on an average year. In 2003, wheat sold for $3.85 per bushell, the combine cost $187,000.00 in 2001, diesel cost $1.65 per gallon, a loaf of bread costs $1.50 to $2.50. And the 230 acres still makes abot 40 bushells to the acre dryland , in a good year. All of this is assuming that there is adequate rainfall, no hail, and no insect problem that year.

Or look at cattle, beef sold for .15 to .25 a pound on the hoof in 1973. Today beef is selling for .85 to .95 a pound on the hoof at any local auction you care to name. AND THERE ARE NO SUBSIDIES ON CATTLE!!! Ya'll do the math!!

Between foreign imports of beef and produce, escalating costs of fuel and labor, and especially equipment, the subsidy program has degenerated into basically a bribe to entice farmers to say in the business. In 1973 farmers were about 4% of the population, now they are hovering at 1% or so. Given the current outlook US farming could easily go the way of US manufacturing, OFFSHORE!!

Don't have all the answers, just know and see what is happening. But the US still pays the least for groceries of any country in the world!!!

But, since this is not Farmingcountry.com, a shooting related item. Had about 40 turkeys in the yard yesterday AM. Since it is spring turkey season, and there seemed to be numerous toms in the bunch, I promptly eliminated one from the gene pool. Man, fresh turkey breast strips, chicken fried with gravy!!!!!

Farmrant off!

Rex.

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:51:38 (ZULU)

Rex,

You have to purchase a $187,000 combine to harvest 9200 bushels of wheat on 230 acres? How many days per year is it in use?

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 18:49:19 (ZULU)

LtChip,

To directly address your Questions.

1. There are no subsidies to cattlemen from the Government. I sell cattle bi weekly at auction for .85 to .95 a pound on the hoof. You pay $5.00 to $8.00 a pound in the store. Where is the difference? If I was getting $10.00 a pound on the hoof, you would now pay about $80.00 per pound if the margins to the middlemen did not change. The margins to the middlemen don't change, regardless of the cattle market. During the Madcow scare a while back, the price of beef dropped to .50 a pound, did your store prices go down? I did not think so. US beef is the cheapest in the world. Ask the Japanese or the Germans. Or the UK. Argentine beef is cheaper on the hoof, but not by the time you buy it at the store.

2. Sugar beets and cane sugar are 90% imported from South America and Central America. Who sets the prices on imports? Not the farmers!

The milk industry, I have no close association to and cannot comment, except to say, ever buy a gallon of milk in Europe? And the farming in Europe is 100% subsidized.

Just so you know, there are only 3 beef processing entities in the US. They control the price of beef in the store, not the cattlemen. They also have the buying power to somewhat affect the auction price. I have bid my cattle up and brought them back home many times to avoid taking a huge loss on them at auction.

The problem as I see it are the long lead times involved in crop production. Lets say that 50% of all farmers decide to plant nothing but corn next year, because in our open market, corn was $15.00 a bushell last year. Now upon harvest, almost a year later, corn has dropped to $2.00 a bushell due to overproduction. About half of those farmers go out of business due to losses, because it cost $6.00 a bushell to produce. Nation wide , there are only 75% of the farmers working compared to the year before. A couple of cycles like this and soon there are not enough farmers to produce the basics. The govt knows that food supply is the key to stable population, it is in their best interest to keep it stable. Problem is, since the subsidyprogram started on crop prices, no one subsidized the tractor mfgs, or the petroleum mfgs, or any of the normal suppliers to the farmers. Income from crops stabilized, expenses did not. How do you make up the difference?

Long story short, if the subsidys were pulled to day, there would be no shortage of food for a while, there is too much production and reserve for that, but then prices at the store would escalate beyond what most people could pay. If farmers were getting what it cost them to produce plus a margin for living, and the PROCESSORS continue to get their cut, the prices at the store would be out of sight. True, if people quit buying, then market forces would bring the prices down. Problem is , people would get hungry and revolt before this market cycle evened out. But then you are back to the one year production cycle, if the food runs out in the winter, you are still 6 to 8 months away from production, even if there is no drought!! So now you are relying on our buddies the europeans to help us out!! Or the South Americans!! Good Luck!!

Rex

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:02:58 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

No, we couldn't buy one at that price. The old one was 40 years old and guess what, parts are no longer available. So we did like 80% of small farmers and paid someone else to cut the wheat this year. Another $6.00 per acre expense. Of course, the harvesters HAD a $187,000.00 combine and it took them 20 hours to cut that field. It used to take us about a week wtih repairs etc. Farming has become a numbers game and economies of scale rule the day. Our operation has become what is known as a "HOBBY" farm. What we produce on this acreage just about pays the land taxes. Everyone involved works off the farm to pay the bills. If you want a real eye opener, just go on down the the local cattle auction, and then go by the local farm equipment dealer and ask a few questions!! The price disparity will astound you.

Sorry for the bandwidth guys, just wanted to rant a bit! No more Farmingcountry!

Rex.

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:23:52 (ZULU)

Medicjim. My apology. You did say peace; good catch of my miss too. On the other hand, more than once found myself fighting forest fires in that infernal peacetime BS. Hahaha. Yeah, it was only when things were real bad for the pros, real damn bad---before they "gave" us the safer edges of the fire. That one in Idaho caught us on an Op...once we evaced the center, we came right back on the edges. Three smoke jumpers dies that week in Idaho. None of us ( a bunch of pissed SF guys and a happy Infantry battalion from Carson). And I'll be damned if I saw a difference from out of control and contained. Fire was fire; it all looked pretty out of control to me! Those jumpers had brass balls the size of cantelopes. Good thing they they had straps sewn across their knees, a tree limb woulda pounded them balls and gave 'em a pair o breasts to die for (heheh)! I've jumped that silly rig (RT)---they can have it. Mil Para pay ain't enough to intentionally knock down trees like a human three-quarter axe!

OK, so I respect those guys. My point was off topic. War wasn't included. Rats...I have an easy life with that off the table! Heheh. Unless you count that snivel and the reserve thing (ouch), the two trannies that lost oil in flight (both came apart on the ground, or I wouldn't be writing this), or the round that hit my ammo pouch in the shoot-house. Pointing bullets away in the pouch does deflect rounds! Go figure! I thought that was a BS urban legends...basically, I got myself into dumb situations from lack of experience. But, intentionally going into a burning house, forest or whatnot is an act of courage that stands tall in my eyes. All respect to you, the firemen, and the LEOs of all stripes.

Ya know, I was indestructable in my youth. I may never had believed that--but looking back---I sure acted like that. How we manage to survive youth is beyond me!

War is hell though. I think I'll just go read another damn book...(ha).

White house trip: Nicole recited the course of her day in one breathe on the phone; she has never said that much to me. The trip made a deep impression on her. She met cabinet folk, the first family was in TX throughout. Still, she was more impressed with some purple dinosaur anyway. And, the stature of that house was not lost, even on a four year old! Very, very cool. Gents, a civic minded citizen in the making. And one proud pappa.

Hi Dan! Gotcha! You may be quiet--but you still lurk...

Joe M., with tongue firmly in cheek, even as I proudly salute all you who serve the public! (shameless plug, the cop-wife's puter is back online.)

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:26:18 (ZULU)

Rex, email me offline and talk me out of putting cattle on my land. I was thinking about it. If nothing else, they'll keep the grass down in front of my targets, right? heheh. I have eighty acres out back for them...and no big issues with return if things go south on the market. I just want to raise a small herd to add another chapter in my book. Any one-over-the-world advice is welcome.

Cattle country. This place is too much sometimes.

Anybody know anything about rifles around here?

High point of the day: Someone dropped off a pallet of optics in amnesty this week. A pile of ACOGs ($120K worth), largish box of raptors (200K), and some PAC4s (no price yet, but a shitload of devices). I am in the process of putting them world-wide visible. Any of you army-types with an interest, hit me offline--we may be able to cut an MRO to your unit, and if you are enroute--all the easier--but i got to know some things we'll cover in the email chain.

You heard it here first---goodies for grunts that are real combat multipliers. The store closes in mid-may (or faster if they hit the system), so get with me asap.

My theory? Some shitbag probably diverted the shipment from an OIF I unit that has since departed (battalion-size or better) and decided it was "too hot" to try to get them outta here. Easy half a million in stuff, some of which I have no clue as to make (yet).

Oh, and there's a box of scopes similar to ACOGs, but not bell shaped. No idea what they are---they are large, straight tubed, integral ARD, floppy rubber caps, with a christmas tree reticle similar to the TDS with extra ranging marks included. The eye piece is slightly larger than the objective....hence, my initial looking through the wrong end in front of my troops. Ha. They laughed when I turned it about. The ARD got my attention pretty quick, but not before the motion was definate---I was busted for being dumb...heheh.

And a box of AIM2000 lasers, very much like the PAC4s, maybe a different licensing deal.

A bonanza for any unit who can get the required info to me. Quick---they won't last long on the system once I load it. Email will place hold for serious inquiries.

Bill? You need this stuff?

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:50:21 (ZULU)

And the MPs/ CID is involved.

Now to make sure these go to a combat unit and not some ash and trash unit with a John Wayne mentality that gets a lucky break on a requisition...

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 20:17:47 (ZULU)

I'm going to be starting a sniper rifle project soon, and am trying to locate something I remember reading about (on this sight, some time ago I do believe). Using a left-handed rifle, for a right-handed shooter, or vice versa was the topic. It really intrigued me, and I'd like to review it again. Does anyone know where I can find the article/archiece? The "search sniper country" doesn't work for me. Probably a firewall issue. Anyways...

Do any of you do this? I would appreciate any offer of some pro's and con's to doing this! Thank you for your assistance.

Semper Fi,

Lt Jarr

Lt Jarr
Miramar, CA, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 20:32:38 (ZULU)

LT Jar:

OK, first--my dad is rolling in his grave over your nickname! I like it...he and I never squared the service rivalry. Next, lefties once shot right handed rifles out of necessity--why would you want to do that now? I cannot imagine cycling an action wrong-handed. It seems unnatural to even contemplate it. On a couple of hunts where I found myself lucky enoough to take more than one of the species, I've been told my shots sounded like a machine gun...even though I took my time in lining up each shot. I used a "natural" motion, one that was as comfortable as it was reflexive--a trained response, to be sure. But one that is also natural. That is a plus--no matter how much "control" I may lose temporarily at the rear of the weapon. I can't think of any reason to change the follow-up. I am dying of curiosity to find out "why" this interests you though.

Hmmm. Maybe someone will post a link, and I can read what you are looking for myself?

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 21:17:37 (ZULU)

Aw commmon Dan; I apppppologize for outranking you with my third grade education. Ya'll all e-mail him (especially you AB guys) and tell him how much you enjoy his posts and web page directions and he'll be back. Don't forget to warn him that there are Rednecks in the woods too and it won't help to go out there, and offer sympathy that a person of such high thinking, all knowing, and all seeing..has to be in the proximity of such ignorance of sheep breeders like us. Sorry to include the sheep thing! I know how you all feel about that..

Just think Dan if I had went to the fourth grade maybe we would have been equals!!!

I'll beg if that will help...... Dan please just ignore my high (third grade) minded insults and over zealous attempts to patch things up between us and get on back here. I'll miss your sweet personality and forgiving manner as much as your directions to web pages where you can find something or somebody who agrees with you totally on everything possible!

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 21:40:05 (ZULU)

Careful about the sheep reference, ya might get the welshmen aroused.....ha..bloody goose sniper..

Bill, I always thought my 8th grade edjumucashun outranked, and I guess it does....got my diploma on rice paper to prove it. You enjoy Dan's rants as much as you do mine, so ya'll quit yer snivelin, you ol' faaaaht....

Joe,

Yo, you got all the cattle you need....fish in a barrel, aim just below the rag..

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 22:13:27 (ZULU)

AYE' my Barrel grinding Scottie friend. Bitch I do, snipe I do, complain & whine I do...... but Snivel. Isn't that something an Englishman do? Never the less..... Dan is my favorite punching bag and vice versa I hope. Just don't get on my bad side or I'll slip in and hack saw and dremmel crown ever barrel you have in the factory. Then your barrels will shoot so good you'll work yourself to death trying to keep up so Just watch it! The Curse; May a bottle of good Scotch Whiskey break in your pocket when you have no spare!

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 22:39:45 (ZULU)

Kevin,

Email sent about the Nashville trip. If you're not working the weekend, you'll be here for one of the largest matches in TN. Shooters from all over the country come to shoot. Bring a stick if you'll be here from the 21st thru the 25th.

Forgot to mension in the email, that many of the US F class team will be here as well.

Chris...

Chris
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 22:51:53 (ZULU)

I know a very good tactical rifle shooter who shoots right-handed a rifle with a left-handed bolt. Since the rifle is almost always being fired off a bipod or other front support, his left hand is not needed to support the rifle, and working the bolt left handed while his right remains on the trigger allows him more speed when he needs to shoot quickly. I grew up shooting rifles left-handed which had a bolt on the right side, and thought nothing of it. It's more difficult to do with a scoped rifle, since one has to reach over the scope, but not enough more to be a serious problem.

When I started shooting rifles again after a thirty-year layoff, I switched to shooting right handed, primarily because my right eye is dominant, and I figured that I might as well shoot the "right" way, but shooting either side seems pretty natural now.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 01:59:20 (ZULU)

Lt. Jarr,

I've seen a bench guy do it so he didn't have to take his right hand away from the grip to cycle the bolt. He didn't win every match. I don't get the theory, as my left hand keeping butt stock pressure against my right shoulder I feel is much more important. I feel like I barely use my right hand for anything but to squeeze the trigger, and I don't think it stabalizes.

OK, IPSC Three-gun question.

IOR and Badger both have a heavy ring with a 1913 rail on top. I have the IOR on a new bolt gun. It's nice. For USPSA Three Gun, would you consider mounting a small red-dot or holo-sight on top of your scope for fast short-range targeting? Most shooters I've seen use scope/dot combos mount the dot on the handgaurd at a 45 degree angle. It seems the get a railed forearm and set the rails at 45 degrees instead of on top and sides.

I was thinking it might be easier to protect the dot sight on top of the rifle instead of on the side, and I imagine that cheek weld breaks down with either a twist of the rifle OR a turkey neck to peer over the ocular lens. Would you guys trust a set-up like this for a tactical/spotter rig?

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 02:12:42 (ZULU)

Dan, relax, we all piss each other off from time to time. thats what makes this place great. We can agree to disagree.

Bill, love you like an obnoxiuos brother. Us rednecks need to stick together. Dan is just a very well educated redneck.

Mike/Undude

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 03:36:18 (ZULU)

left handed bolt gun w/right handed shooter.

Left hand supports buttstock in prone when using supported position. If using left handed bolt you have to move the hand from under the stock which changes position. If you work the bolt properly with the right hand you'll be just as quick and you dont have to change position. Plus you have to load with your left hand which may not be fun for ya. YOu'll still use your right hand to adjust the scope....Seems like a cluster fuck to me...

If a left handed bolt was better dont ya think after about 100 years they would have moved the bolt to the other side???

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 12:25:15 (ZULU)

The only time a left bolt would be better for a right handed person in my humble often disputed opinion is when it's one one of these specialty pistols like the Savage Striker for instance. In that case the right hand is busy supporting the gun while the lelft works the bolt. In the case of a single shot it probably makes little time difference. But it's nice to be able to keep you hand on the grip and not have to shift especially when shooting the internation (similar to Creedmore position).

Mike; we may be a band of obnoxiou brothers and that may indeed be what holds us together. However you have hit on the real reason that the battle goes on between me and my friend Dan. If you think you can agree to disagree with Dan you have my blessing. Dan your Winchester isn't in danger for I have enough rifles but your credibility is if you bow out. You may feel free to respond in your uusual cordial and friendly manner. I will publicly tell the rest of you that we have agreed off line over a year ago that both will leave as a pair but that agreement is always broken by Danny Boy as soon as he thinks I'm over the ridge. Take heart Dan you have every chance of outliving me and you can be free to direct all those opinions that gratify your ego. Even though some of us have a mouse of our own and seek to roam the net. It is your timeless efforts to direct us that we live for.

Brogers
Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 12:38:09 (ZULU)

Kevin,

I weighed 20 or so 175 smk's as a reference, if you will, and all were + or - 0.1 gr. Hysteresis? I've had that since I said "I do".

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 12:40:31 (ZULU)

I can see a use for a right hand bolt, left hand ejection/ loading port, or vise-versa for them south paws out there and i have seen target rifles built like this. and ivse seen right handed bolt guns with right handed ejection/loading ports converted to left hand bolt throw. this was before you could buy factory left hand actions, but the converted examples are still kicking about some where. Reason that most bolt guns are right handers is simply that there are more right handed folks, if there were more south paws t'otherway then we would have had the majority of bolt guns manufactured leftie style.

Do south paws wipe thier ass with the left hand or the right hand..?? i bet half the guys on here don't even bother eh?? ha ha..

Pete..

Peter Lincoln
D - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 13:40:15 (ZULU)

Dan would post this if he were not in self-imposed exile, so I shall. Victor Davis Hanson, on the fruits of a quarter-century of appeasement, not just of foreign terrorists, but of the people who live in the United States who hate America:

"The autocratic Arab world neither respects nor fears a democratic United States, because it rightly senses that we often talk in principled terms but rarely are willing to invest the time, blood, and treasure to match such rhetoric with concrete action."

...

"If Marx receded from economics departments, his spirit reemerged among our intelligentsia in the novel guises of post-structuralism, new historicism, multiculturalism, and all the other dogmas whose fundamental tenet was that white male capitalists had systematically oppressed women, minorities, and Third World people in countless insidious ways. The font of that collective oppression, both at home and abroad, was the rich, corporate, Republican, and white United States."

Click on my name for the link. It's long, but well worth reading.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 14:04:08 (ZULU)

VDH is ALWAYS worth reading.

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 14:42:48 (ZULU)

Dan and Bill, this crap is not that big a deal. Lets just have some good discussions and not take our balls and go home.

Trully there are big issues in the world and us agreeing on anything is not one of them.

Talking about something brings up new ideas for improvement.

We all can be wrong at some point and move on.

You will never learn anything from someone that agrees with you all the time.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 16:05:07 (ZULU)

'Yote,

Point taken, snivellin ain't youse, replace word with 'pissin and moanin like you was the Bickersons'...

You just keep your dremel and hack-em saw holstered Mister..hah...And cursing the whisky!!! you're pure evil, mang... ;P

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 17:15:04 (ZULU)

Lindy,

Thanks for a good read. First time I've read anything of his. I think Bill McCormick is absolutely right.

Dan & Bill,

Take two deep breaths, shake hands, and lets get back to normal. What am I saying!!?? This bar ain't never been normal and I personally hope it never gets that way. "Normal" folks tend to be boring. ;o)

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 17:46:20 (ZULU)

Doc' your on thin Ice there just don't be getting me confused with Normal!

JR; I'll except that pissin and moaning is my stock and trade! What I really love is the sound of a 20000 rpm dremmel tool in the morning!

Gent's all; I'm just here to help a few riflemen get going and I've never failed to try to help if asked by anyone anywhere at anytime. I may give more opinion than anything else but I have yet to hold anybody down and make em drink it. What's yesterday's wine is nothing but an empty glass to me. I don't hold no grudges and make no brags I can't back up. Just get your happy asses down here and see for yourselves if you don't think so. Bring my brag statement with you if you can find it within these pages. So otherwise just be one of the brothers and gimmie some slack for being old redneck and ignorant. You piss me off just offer your hand and it's a done deal whether I think your right or wrong but don't attack without provacation cause I bite.

Brogers
Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 18:02:32 (ZULU)

Congrats, Doc! I think you're the first ever to say that.

Now walk quietly to the nearest Head Farm & get yourself checked out!

Bill

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 18:55:53 (ZULU)

CDC, come on back if yer lurkin. I miss those news item links. Best source of pertinent stuff out there. Always good food fer thought. I did lots of cuttin & pastin, sending that stuff to liberal acquaintances.

Bill M., a couple of Bristol LE boys took top honors this past month at the Sniperweek Challenge in Tampa. Dern good shootin & craft. Both won real nice trophies & Accuracy International rifles. Sweet.

Deputy Doug

edited fer spellin goofs

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 22:31:33 (ZULU)

For those that contacted me about the 1K matches from the 21st thru the 25th of April here in TN.

The clinics on the 21st and 22nd have ben cancelled due to a lack of interest. I'm a bit disappointed, as it would have given me time to shoot the 6.5 in a bit since it's last bedding adjustment,, but such is life.

So, the 23rd will be a practice day, the 24th will be 2x600 yard matches and a team match. The 25th will be 2x1000 and a team match.

Still a great match on a top notch range with professinal Officers. Hope to see some of ya there.

Bill Mc.,

You're too close to ORSA to miss this man!!

Chris...

Chris
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 00:01:25 (ZULU)

Wow, I never thought the argument thing was much more than hard love. Our differences are what keeps us coming back to a refernce page like this. If we all had the same opinions or knowledge, no one would correspond. I'll bet if everybody did have the same opinion, many of you outspoken would change your minds just to be different.

Northside

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 00:11:16 (ZULU)

"I don't know how the marines do it..but the COC is loaded with stark looking marines. The senior NCO's all look like NFL lineman. The junior officers look like marathon runners and the mid-grade officers look like NFL halfbacks...the senior officers are lean, tanned and serious..deadly serious. The place exudes the warrior spirit. If you are a civilian I can't explain it and won't apologize for it. If you are a veteran you don't need to have it explained..the warrior spirit."

A Good Friday message from a Chaplain serving with the Marines in Iraq. Click on my name for the link.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 00:45:21 (ZULU)

Hello all -

FELLOWSHIP:

Dan (CDC) you and Pablito - get your asses back to the pub. We all butt heads - but for the most part - can count on one another when the chips are down.

Some of you reeeeallll long timers remember when Pablito and I first met.... LOL.... Talk about butting heads....

BALLISTICS:

The Single one variable that we are all looking for - for our logbooks is: DENSITY ALTITUDE. It's made up of temp, air density, humidity, baro pressure, etc.

You dont worry about alititude, etc... That one variable accounts for it... Alot of performace race engine tuners use this. It's the bottom line definition for the air that your boolet has to push thru, as well as the air that might be pushing against it in windy conditions.

In theory - you gather your dope for density altitude, and simply refer to those charts when you move from area to area....

Think about it and let me know....It's described in pretty good detail in the kestrel books and I'm sure alot of other places. You folksen out there that are better at this atmospheric stuff chime in and contribute.....

AND FINALLY:

Anyhow -- take care all - prayers for the troops.

Ken

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 01:38:28 (ZULU)

"If we all had the same opinions or knowledge, no one would correspond."

True there would be no point in it. But just in case someone missed it. I started this last donnybrook by Agreeing with something Dan said. As long as this guy isn't pissin in your park he's fine but when he does, you will find out what it's like to try to agree to disagree with this gentleman . He might piss in my park again but I've gone as far as a man can go to patch things up with somebody that doesn't want a patch. Please don't confuse this with an arguement between those friends who just disagree. I've done that with many of you and had to eat my words and/or extend my hand to call it a done deal. There's a basic difference in willingness to tolerate other people and a reluctance to put up with it is at the heart of this one folks.

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 02:25:21 (ZULU)

What's the best place to buy match grade ammo for 300 WM. Looking for 190 Gr. Preferably Federal or Black Hills. Any good websites that you guys know of?

Thanks.

Corbett Mortensen
Omaha, NE, - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 03:53:01 (ZULU)

Bill, if I may call you by your first name,

If I remember correctly, this was about Fallujah. You and Dan were disagreeing with my point of view that harsher actions are required. Dan suggested to kill more enemies than we create and you agreed. I think we already have as many as we can possibly have and cannot create new ones in the Middle East, Southern Asia, Africa. Most every living adult has already chosen sides and what we're hoping for is the "winning of hearts and minds". Ruthlessness didn't work for the Russians in the A-hole because what they had to offer was worse than what the citizens had before. Our way is an improvement, and most people are getting it in Iraq. What we need to do is sweep away all those that would fight to the death anyway and fast. There may be colatteral damage, and Iraqis may hate Americans for it, but in the long run they'll appreciate it when their quality of life improves.

Your issues with Dan go beyond his reluctance to accept that you and he agreed on a stance. I don't know what they are. I don't know you personally yet, but I hope to get to know both you and Dan. You're both good guys on this site. Unless someone cheats or steals from you, and we all need to be warned about it, keep the feuds brief and get over them.

I'm sorry if I caused this in the first place. If I didn't, well then the whole world revolves around me. As for the rest of you out there having with this, don't quote me to take a cheap shot at someone else...

Bravo,

I've seen CETME for under $400 in Like New condition. It sounds FUN! Remington told me the 700P will never have the stupid lock in the shroud, but I haven't seen this year's models. Winnies are for hunting. Try a Weatherby. Have fun lapping the lugs.

Anyone shooting this weekend at KCCC in Bristol, WI? I'll be there at 0800 Sat.

Good night all,

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 03:53:56 (ZULU)

Tommy; You didn't cause anything, that wasn't already an issue. I'm almost in the same quandry as you as to what caused the original breakdown with the party is question. Dan doesn't want to be on the same side of an issue with me but that too isn't the root of the problem as I see it. It's a cultural thing I guess. He considers himself somehow in a different class with intellectuals who somehow are above the need to exchange views with we of (he thinks)lesser education and wrong thinking, it grates him if one in the other class would have a view at all as near as I can tell. I may not be the brightest duck on the pond but I have observed that the smarter a man is or thinks he is.... the more he underestimates those around him. You aren't wrong about Iraq as it stands today. What we should have done there and what we can do now is moot. That's all I was saying. Alan and he, got into a pretty big donnybrook early on with this thing because Alan was talking kick butt big time and Dan was saying that would be a mistake. So it depends on the day I would say as to how anyone stands on an issue.

I just don't see the day that these ancient cultures will embrace democracy and the western way of life and become our emulators. It makes good sense that they would or should but they have had thousands of years to develop tolerance for the rest of the world in manner and religion and that's not likely to happen now or I miss my guess. Japan and South Korea and a lot of other places would seem to increase the chances that I'm wrong but my philosophy on that is that we aren't responsible to have to change their culture but ours is to kick their butts when they do things like they did on 1911. First we cure them of that and then we work on the other stuff. Japan surrendered because of what I just outlined. Germany also fell to it. South Korea and Others for that matter also were affected by the old addage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" as a reason for following Western lead into Democratic style governments. A lot of the thing is about money but in the culture wew deal with now, they have the money it's just a matter of refraining from fighting with the people they have to sell the oil too that keeps them down. Look at Kawait if you don't believe that. The thing I said to Dan is, that he was exactly right because it was too late to do it my way which would have been to kick their asses till everyone there and everyone around there were ready to talk "lets get along!". I say again it's too late for that now. The opportunity is long past and our promise of a better life and democracy to save the day is lost in their own tribial conflicts and the jealousy for power for the factions over there that's caused conflict in the "cradle of civilization" and got their butts kicked many times back thousands of years ago when America was covered with Buffalo Shit and campfires.

Being brief is not neccesarily entertaining to cover another point you commented on. I have yet to find anyone who isn't interested in conflict between someone else as long as their shoes don't get dirty. Start a fight on a steet and see how big the crowd is. So the conflict will rage on as it always will in Iraq and on this page.

My issue here if you have to think I have one is someone who uses their own "perceived by them" intellect or to bring others who might be smarter than they think to grovel at their feet because of their own visions of grandure. Those brethren are the ones that can kiss my Redneck ass.

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 12:20:16 (ZULU)

Addendum to DNC convention itinerary:

Over night visit to Chappaquidick with female interns to discuss office policies. (pancake breakfast included)

Mike Wiseman
Harrison, Oh, - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 12:49:09 (ZULU)

Morning Guys,

See not much has changed!!! I have a quick question for the "Learned" ones on here. I started having trouble with bullet runout on my 308s.

I have Redding BR dies an am using neckturned Lapua brass. The problem is my bullet runout goes from "0" to as high as .007+ Its so bad you can see it when you spin the loaded round an watch the tip. I have the RCBS case checker with the dial indicator to check the run out so I know exactly what it is.

I have had the die apart an can find nothing wrong with it but it will load inconsistant rounds as I stated above. Out of 10 rounds you may get 3 good ones 3 so,so an the rest in the .007 range.

I am at my wits end to figure this out all my case necks are with in + or - .002 so I don't think thats a problem. I neck turned the brass to "Clean" up the necks to make sure I didn't have any cases with a thick neck on one side or the other pushing the bullet over.

So I am open to suggestions an ideas. Has anyone else ran into this?? Thanks an play nice!!!!!!!!!

Pat
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 13:56:23 (ZULU)

Has anyone received a recent batch of Varget, and obtained results from it? I'm about to order a keg, and am looking for latest info/results after the issues involving 'bad batches'.

Thanks in advance.

Duman
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 14:49:12 (ZULU)

Anybody doing any shooting?

Anybody going to the NRA convention this weekend?

Jerry

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 15:34:40 (ZULU)

You have all met people who are not intelligent and don't know it. Bill is one of these people.

Any attempt at a refutation of any of his posts would be like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. Instead do this test: Read his posts until you find a subject on which you are knowledgable. When you read and understand his argument you'll find that his opinion on any topic can cheerfully be dismissed.

(Edited)

CDC'
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 16:31:48 (ZULU)

Any one going to the Bianchi cup?

Jerry, I shot once then after cleaning and reloading figgured it was too much trouble ;)

I take two days off from roster reading and Yote Bait and Dan are at it again. Dan, you said you were not going to let him get to you again. What happend?

Joe M. The wife won't be going to where you are after all. She will be joining those troops with the saddle blankets. She may get to stop by but not for very long. Damn I served ten years and no combat patch now the wife will be getting one. That just aint right.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
Home of the Alamo, Texas, U. S. of A! - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 16:47:19 (ZULU)

CDC - I'm afraid it's too late... you've already adopted us -- just count this is one of those family pissing contests.. in time it goes away... Just keep posting your stuff and do what you do best.

Hell - it might Mike or me that you butt heads with next.... no problemo there.... just heal from it and go from there.... I sure as hell won't leave and wouldn't expect you to leave either.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 16:55:36 (ZULU)

Is someone sending email or is anyone else receiving email from "Tactical@tacticalintervention"? Received on 4/16/2004 with an attachment. I have not opened the email/attachment because of fear of viruses. The subject line just says: "Incoming message".

Gerry

Gerry
Portland, Oregon, USA - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 17:25:39 (ZULU)

Ken,

Interesting idea using density altitude. What data would you use for the atmospheric fields on a ballistic program? I assume you would plug in standard atmoshperic data and use the density reading in the altitude field?

Cheers

Jon

Jon Beardsley
Welshman in exile, England, UK - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 17:33:08 (ZULU)

Gerry, thats my website and one of my email addresses but I did not send it. Virus AH's morph email addresses all the tiem and make it look like its coming form someone you know.

Advice get good virus protection and update atleast once a week. Also if you get an email you are not sure of email back with question.

Neither Dan or Bill are idiots, although right now fellows you both are in line for academy awards for acting like idiots. Both are smarter than they are acting.

Out the door and on the way to teach some dudes about to go into harms way. Lets just focus on whatwe can do for them and not who has the bigger ones. Be back monday so yell at me then.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 18:03:34 (ZULU)

What a beautiful day here in the Peoples Republic.

Went shootin today at Cherry Ridge Range( a bit of chronographing was in order).

Everything was going fine until the range caught on fire.

We have had a lot of rain but a few hours of Sun dried up the surface

leaf matter behind the 100 yard range.

Some Hot lead or more likely Jacket material and thats all she wrote.

A couple of brooms and a bit of furious flailing and the fires out.

I'm getting to old for this much excitement.

Becareful out there the woods are DRY !!

Joisey Steve

Steven Dzupin
Wayne, New Joisey, US of A - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:09:46 (ZULU)

Why Dan; If your so much smarter than me how come you let me bait you back on here like that. You ain't near as smart as you think you are and that's my best take on the subject. One thing about it Dan, nobody ever accused me of being smart so I don't have to defend myself in that respect.

You can't stand to be questioned or speculated upon even by an idiot. I made my case so you just go right ahead Dan, call me an idiot or anything else you can think of. I'm afraid your argument doesn't quite hold water but your welcome to inflate your balls with it.

Why is it you can't take a critical judgement from someone you consider low life and a complete idiot Dan? Maybe you need to read my profile of you again?

Mike; it's ok. Your judgement I trust. Eat and run if you wish.

That's not the cowboy way though!

Dan; anyone can see that your so knowledgeable it's just not practical for you to visit idiots. We all can see that. Now you gone and done it. Mike thinks you too are acting like an idiot. Wanna shake hands or just wanna keep on. I'm asking you in public as a fellow idiot, what's your pleasure? Serve yourself.

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:20:34 (ZULU)

Bad news;

We lost another Police Officer. He was my neighbor. Beautiful family...

Didn't know him too well.

A great loss.

http://www.mercedsun-star.com/local/story/8444689p-9279330c.html

Spud

Dennis
Merced, Ka., usa - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:43:17 (ZULU)

Bill n CDC, i don't give a damn who is an idiot and who isn't cos we all are at times,i freely admit to bieng an idiot on occasions, more often when i get at the beer or have my dick on my forehead and my balls hanging front of my eyes when i'm in rutting mode (you should see me then ,, i'm awesome.. aint i Jon.. JR?) i don't claim to be a rocket scientist but i fly space ships via remote control for a living,i figure i've done ok for a farm boy, with no university degree, and only an apprenticeship as an armourer/gunsmith and my " meister prufung" as a "buchsenmacher" and 10 years military service to boast about. i work everyday with folks who have more qualifications than i can count, who are highly intelectual, highly qualified people, some of them are intelligent and some are thick as pig shit, like wise ive seen common infantry soldiers who where mega intelligent (and i've seen some artillery soldiers who where plain retards), i am an easy going bloke who can tak4e as much shit as i can give and can always see the funny side of the worst situation, but then a " Tommy" always had too.Now in my opinion you both bring a valuable input to this site, so Now for christ sake, quit this dumb ass squabble will you, stop pissing eachother off (and the rest of us along with it) and kiss and make up and get back to you normal modes of rosterhawging, the rest of us won't stand for either of you quitting posting so don't either think about leaving. collect your teddy bears out the corner and lets get back to all bieng friends please. and the likes of Alan and Lito and some of the others who used to post on here should get thier asses back cos i for one miss you all.

I have increased my knowledge no end on this site, i hope i have helped increase the knowledge of others too, i have met a lot of folks from here who to a man are fine people and have become good friends, certainly as good as any i had whilst serving in the military and those of you who have served will know what i am talking about. My quality of life has certainly improved since becoming a roster hawg, and i won't have any silly squabble spoil the fun that this site is.. so sort it out other wise i will be slewing one of my satellites round and will be zapping you squabbelers with a sense of humour beam..

Pete..

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 19:49:50 (ZULU)

Pat,

if you're using compressed loads you may need to replace your seating stem. The Reddings have been known to bell a bit when you use compressed laods and if it belled enough, it may be seating off the tip and thus causing a little tip in the bullet when it's brought down into the neck. I know they advertise them as ogive seaters,, but they contact way further up than the ogive.

Also,, the seating stem or die body may have worn a bit and it's causing some wobble in the stem hole.

I can't think of any other way the Redding BR seater can seat poorly if your necks are in good shape. Unless the press is flexing (doubtful).

You're not using an expander plug in them bushing dies are you????

FatBoy...

Chris
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 21:06:34 (ZULU)

Pete; If I weren't so stupid I would have said just what you just said. But you know what they say about us good ole boys. "You can't starve us out and you can't make us run!" Sorry guys just playin the part no matter how cheesy I have to be. Unless your pretty slow yourself you must have seen my attempts to end this thing. Off line was much more groveling on my part. But that was a year ago. If I shoved a beer bottle in your ear enough I think even you might feel a bit annoyed. Another quote if I might."It depends on whose Ox is being gored!"

Brogers
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 21:07:47 (ZULU)

Am i right in thinking i need high Badger rings to mount a 8-32x56 NXS on a no forward cant base on a fat barreled remington 700? somebody confirm this quick please?

Bill, i'd get anoyed if you tried to shove a beer bottle up me ass, but put it anywhere near me head and my mouth just steers onto the kneck like its lazer guided or summot..

Well i had the absolute pleasure of meeting another roster hawg who is a true gent last night, Joe S has been visiting Germany and we met up last night, had a great evening, realy enjoyed my self, Joe it was great to meet you and your good lady, thanks for all the goodies and the jerky buddy, have a safe trip back..

There is a 4-16x50 PMII S&B heading my way from the S&B factory,,, can't wait till it comes..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Friday, April 16, 2004, at 21:24:49 (ZULU)

Watched the kid from Ohio paraded by his captors on Al-Jihad TV tonight. Makes me regret that morse code is archaic, a simple blink sequence:

.._. ._ ._.. ._.. .._ ._ _ _ ._ ....

._ _ _ _ _... ._.. _ _ _ _._. _._ _. .

_ _ _ .._. _._. . _. _ . ._.

..... ... _ _ _ _ ._. _._ _

..._ _ .._. _ _ _ _ _ _ ._.

_ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ .._ ._ ._. _ . ._.

Woulda said, "Fallujah, 1 block NE of center 5 story 3 floor--no quarter."

I did it twice to see what could be sent as the camera was on him.

Then again, SERE and AT courses also may be helpful--what is important is more than your ass sometimes, though you oughta think about it alot before hand---so that if it happens, you can fall back on a plan or procedure rather than fear. Use the sun to plot direction, senses for time and speed, and math to plot possible position. Knowing one floor or two is easy enough---blind fold or not---it is what ever info you can deduce to pass on. I'd rather have a bit of a chance than needle in haystack chance for rescue.

I hold little hope for him in his uniform. I know what it means to me if they execute him....but my fear is most of my country would not get it. Hell, the letter from Hitlary et-al was about "contractors on the battlefield" with no mention of the atrocity that befell them. The point is, who cares why they were there? The issue is the party atmosphere of these dirtballs and the mutilation that was done....that should be the focal point of our energy---not some apologistic BS about security forces. Rantrant.

I just pray that these terrs surprise me and adhere to the conventions.

It bothers me bad to see that kid on TV---more than I probably let on here. That poor kid couldn't know much more than PFC Mahon did back when---and that means he is wholly unprepared for this situation. Either we get lucky or his captors have mercy. Niether of which is acceptable choices for this guy. Damn. I wish I had been his CO...no way would I expose individuals, nor let elements move without mutual support. Array each squad so that it could always hold 3 times their number for as long as it took to converge overwhelming firepower. Make a battalion the only thing that could fuck with me. And then, only after a hard day. Ya know---I see it happen all day long, the mission is to move here to do this---and that is where all the tactics get employed. Nobody thinks about the move itself, just the objective. Never piecemeal yourself, never take anything for granted.

I don't care what is said about how he was captured---it will eventually come down to a leader assuming away a risk because he focused on a larger, more obvious risk. My other prediction is the sun will rise tomorrow. Damn again.

There's a job opening in Lacrosse as an ROTC APMS; I am calling branch tomorrow to see if I can divert. I could impact .7% of a few year groups worth of LTs in that job. Maybe a few more at advance camp. I think I need to try. I'll teach them stuff that ain't found in those sorry manuals.

I hate knowing what I know and seeing that poor kid sitting where he is. Fuck...I hate it. Where was his support? If dead, where was the mutual support? HTF did he get snagged? No excuse. none...

joe mahon
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 22:38:50 (ZULU)

Northside wrote:

>>If I didn't, well then the whole world revolves around me. As for the rest of you out there having with this, don't quote me to take a cheap shot at someone else...<<

Wrong boyo--it revolves around my kids. I seen it with me two eyes. As for quoting you to take a cheap shot, dang! Fresh out of quips...

But lemme see if I got this right: You make statement, statement refuted. Refuted statement affirmed. Agreeing parties toss pies over agreement. You are to blame? how again? Heheh. I'm lost in this confusion...

Bruce: Two arrived. Going straight to BIAP.

Keith: Second box arrived, similar to first in content. Going to Iraq with Bruce's at first light.

All: Any addresses you have in Iraq---send stuff pronto. Divert the whole GFG to Iraq in fact...NOW. I won't get into details (can't)--but mail still moves albeit slower than ever. Things aren't bad, just austere (quantity over quality).

Tobacco, bug repel, sunscreen, candies, jerky, books, AA batts, magazines (coffe table variety, not bottom drawer!), coffee, sunflower seeds, nuts, gorp stuff (pocket food of any sort).

I have a couple addies up yonder---hit me offline if you want to jump in. I can also trans-ship for free, but will be there myself not long from now.

No more packages to this address after April 25--give or take a few days. By mid may, dunno where I'll be exactly. Well, it won't be home---that much is known.

joe mahon
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 22:59:58 (ZULU)

Dirty Steve: Got it. Offer still stands on gear if she crosses paths here.

joe mahon
Friday, April 16, 2004, at 23:03:53 (ZULU)

Joe,

Morse code is far from dead. Get a band chart and tune into the lower end of the Amateur Radio bands.... Morse is an absolute blast to learn and use. I'll bet that cranky old cowboy that is arguing with Dan at the moment - has some CW (morse) stories to tell...yes - I'm revealing alittle knowlege about one of his other hobbies :)

Jon Beardsley - I have not been in the code or algorithms for ballistic programs. From what I can tell - the instruments that produce the 'density altitude' measurement make use of temp, humidity, dew point, baro pressure, and some charts that are generated by NOAA (IIRC).

Now - should research reveal that density alititude measurements are indeed a way to be dead on (provided you have dope for the various density altitudes) - then one weakness that would need to be overcome is the fact that you need a battery powered gadget to take this measurement. The instrument - a good example of which is the Kestrel 4000 - relies on charts and makes some calculations.

Anyhow - as always - all of us students of riflery - should strive to learn how to read the environment on our own, independent of instruments... But - wouldn't it be neat to have just one factor to worry about, when you're trying to make charts, etc?....

Just my thoughts anyway ... some of you other folksen that are ballisticians and meterologists (spelling?) chime in and run with it....

Take care all, Prayers for the Troops and Troopers.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Va, USofA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 00:20:10 (ZULU)

Happened to be in the office for a few minutes today, got dragged into doing a litle PR. Met a couple & their 4 year old boy. His eyes got real big. Course I was in uniform, had the jack boots on as it was a good "Motor" day. Kids eyes got even bigger when he noticed I was armed. Kid said loudly to his folks, "He's got a gun!!!"

Found out they's from Australia.(Oz as I believe some calls it). Jeezus crimony, the mom sounded like Hillary, all explaining to the kid how no one should have guns but the police.

Couldn't take it, her ruinin the kid like that. Got out the soap box and sat the kid down & explained how things really were, that guns are a necessary tool of the free man to repel criminal(and bureaucratic) minded scoundrels. His ma just about had a stroke, the dad kinda smiled. Was a Kodak moment.

After about 15 minutes, I excused myself to get back to work. As I left, the kid yells out, "I want a gun!!!" Brought tears to my eyes and a smile to my soul.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 02:12:06 (ZULU)

CDC,

"nightmarishly stupid" ?

Why would someone, such as yourself, who is so blindingly brilliant, get his knickers in a twist because someone AGREES with him?

I, for one, am sick of this crap. It needs to stop.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 03:55:22 (ZULU)

Joe,

I have no kids. I'll concede that until I do, the world revolves around your kids. They have a good Daddy.

Density Altitude.

A good friend of mine is an engineer for IHI Turbo. They make the Turbos for the Cummins Turbo Diesel. Here's what he sent me. Back to college. Shit.

Atmospheric Pressure = -0.00003 X Altitude + 1

Density = Atmospheric Pressure / ( R X Temperature)

R is a constant, R = .28698

T is in Kelvin(K), T(K°) = T(C°) + 273

T(C°) = (T(F°) - 32) * 0.55

Here is the Boiled Down single Equation for Density in Kg/m^3

Density = (-0.00003 X Altitude + 1) / (T(F°) X -.1573 - 5.0336)

Density Altitude is also a factor in environmental testing in air quality. Stack testers compensate for this when measuring stack emisions. I used to do just that, so I'll see if there is anything I'm missing.

Gosh. I know a lot of people and have learned a lot of useless stuff in just 35 years. I do like research, though.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:33:39 (ZULU)

I found an interesting link with info on possessing moderators in germany, gave me some good ideas on how to out flank the gestapo. They have some interesting pictures of some moderators, one for a 120mm tank cannon and another for what looks like an AS 90, maybe its an M109.. i looked at the can more than the track..

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Schalldaempfer.htm

worth a look at the pics..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:42:22 (ZULU)

Joe, Don't take too much of this on your shoulders. There's things that even experience and foresight just doesn't cure. We are here for you and lay it on us anytime you need too but but just don't get too much burden on yourself. You aren't responsible for the bad stuff that happens. You can't save em all my friend.

MORSE CODE? What's that? Now we have sub-titles in Continental Code.

Very interesting, I'm glad there are those who do remember Joe. I remember the POW's used that method. NVA's must have thought we Yanks all had some eye problems...They probably don't even teach grunt radio operators anything about it anymore. Haven't heard much about it myself since that movie, "Independence Day." There you go Dan! When you feel like talking dirty to me, you can use the M Code. Keep it under 45 though I'm getting a little rusty. ...-.-

Brogers
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:46:50 (ZULU)

MUST READ:

Subject: From a Chaplain serving in Iraq.

Hot and sunny on Good Friday...quiet in Fallujah and Ar Ramadi. The

Coalition has announced a pause in offensive operations. Humanitarian

aid is being searched and then allowed into the city of Fallujah.

Defensive operations continue 24/7. It is all war, all the time. The

bad guys are regrouping. So are the Marines. The brawl will begin

again...probably tonight. All intel points to the bad guys

redistributing ammo, enlisting kids in the fight and moving for new

cover. Convoys are limited....danger of ambush is high. Life in Blue

Diamond continues, with an edge. Imagine a place the size of Lakeland

Shores with 5 times the population. One asphalt street, two dirt roads. Due to the siege.....no sanitation service for three day, that includes pumping satellites. We are on the edge of the town. We see the minirets of the city and we hear the immams sermons as they rail against us. Good thing few here understand Arabic cause I can tell you the preachers weren't teaching the golden rule today. Morale, sky high. Extra intensity. Friends are on the line. The senior NCO's and officers here, feel the pull the most. They have served with or trained everyone on the line. The Corps is a small community. This is very personal. If a person can do something to help the outcome of the fight, they'll find a way. It's that kind of day. All for one, one for all. I divide the day; Holy Week service planning, convoy prayers, and Combat Operation Center (COC) intercessory prayers. First, I go to the DIV Chaplain office to meet with the command Chaplain, Chaplain Divine, the fighting Irishman. What a man. RC Christians be proud. You've got a great priest here. He spares nothing to get to his Marines. He loves

Marines and he loves God. He waded into Ar Ramadi during the fire

fight, three days ago to provide ministry at the aid station, came back weary but satisfied he was where he was needed. He's on the road, to all the FOB's ministering to Marines. I had the privilege of praying for him, this morning. If he goes down, the morale in this Division would take a huge hit. They love him. Second, I work to coordinate Good Friday, Easter Sunrise and Protestant Easter Service. Having services in a war zone is a little different. A) we have to worry about getting large numbers of people in one place. One mortar round into the right place and you could kill alot of Marines. B) organists are in short supply and we don't have an organ. Music? C) we are going to worship and it will be well attended.........we need Easter because we live in the valley of the shadow of death.......we need the resurrection. Third, twice a day I go to the "Cave." The COC which is housed in a former palace. Poorly lit and the hub of fighting the battle. I stand in the corner and pray for each person/position and those they represent. I don't know many of them, but God does. I pray for wisdom, strength, mercy, endurance and God's presence for each warrior all those they serve or represent. I cover the Cave and the battle field as I look at live imagery projected on the wall. I don't know how the Marines do it, but the COC is loaded with strack looking Marines. The senior NCO's all look like NFL lineman. The junior officers look like marathon runners and the mid-grade officers look like NFL halfbacks. The senior officers are lean, tanned and serious, deadly serious. The place exudes the warrior spirit. If you are a civilian I can't explain it and won't apologize for it. If you are a veteran you

don't need to have it explained. The warrior spirit..... These Marines are in a street fight. They don't have the word "lose" in their vocabulary. They've been bloodied and their anger is up. The intensity in the COC is contagious. This is a tribe of warriors. They exist to close with and destroy the enemy. They have their tribal mores, rituals and rites. Their enemy has desecrated members of the tribe and taunted the Marines. They've asked for a fight. The Marines are in full pursuit and absolutely determined to annihilate their foe. I'm sure that sounds harsh to politically correct ears and those for whom this type of violence is anachronistic. It does not sound foreign here. It is status quo. We are in a violent land, with an evil element and they are having violence visited upon them. There is no room here for half

measures. This is a test of wills. One side will prevail. That is

clearly understood and never discussed. It is obvious. We aren't

playing paintball. We are at war. Fourth, Convoy prayers. Convoys go out of here regularly. I hunt them down, pass out a small card with a convoy prayer on it, and then gather whoever wants to pray and we pray. The number of prayers is going up, hourly, as the ambushes continue. Here's how intense it has become. Today's standard preconvoy brief now includes the following: "If you drive into the kill zone, two options. Drive through and on, or reverse and drive out. Do not stop!!!!!! If you are blocked into the kill zone, displace from the vehicle, find cover, fix the target, engage, manuever and destroy the hostile forces. Target selection rules have changed. Avoid civilians, if possible. Hostile forces are now using civilians as shields. We are not interested in losing more Marines. If you can avoid putting civilians in your line of fire, avoid it. If not, fire to take out the hostile forces." Implications? Chilling, we've entered a new dimension. We are fighting an enemy who respects no laws of humanity, knows no rules of landwarfare and gives no quarter. How do we fight, without become barbarians ourselves? Fifth, ministry of presence. In a place this

small, I walk from shop to shop and just say, "Hi." Can't tell you the number of times someone says..."Hey, Chappy, it's great to have you here." Something about seeing a chaplain is calming to folks this close to the fight. Good Friday in Ar Ramadi. While you're having lunch I'll lead the evening Good Friday service. We will remember our Savior who willingly laid down His life that we might live, and we'll be thinking about young Marines and soldiers who are willingly putting their lives on the line so Iraqis can be free "No greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for his brother..............."

Good Friday to you,

Chaplain John

brian k. sain
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 04:58:54 (ZULU)

BKS, TO good a post!! Made this old soldier a little misty eyed! DAMN we've got GREAT people on the ground REGARDLESS of their duty position!

DRIVE ON!!

Sarge

Sarge
Southern Area 51, New Mexico, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 06:21:27 (ZULU)

Bill,

I had to learn that stuff when I went through pilot training. Wasn't too bad listening to it and writing it down; but reading it from a flashing light was a real bear for me.

Brian & Sarge,

Amen!

All,

Does anyone have any experience with the new line of Henry rifles? I sold another "Big Boy" .44 mag yesterday and every time I see that brass receiver I cringe and go into flashback mode. Polished too darned much brass when I was a NAVCAD in Uncle Sam's Navy. The rifles seem to be very well made; but I wonder how well that receiver will hold up. Hard to believe they come from Brooklyn, NY!

Doc

_.. --- -.-. [I think ;o) ]

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 11:51:09 (ZULU)

DUMAN

I just bought a new jug of Varget. I'm shooting a Win. Mod. 70 HBV.I chrographed my accuracy load which is the older silver colored WLR primmers. Here's how it played out. FED 210M 43.0 Varget avg. velocity 2625 E.S 49 (OLD) WLR 43.0 Varget avg. vel. 2662 E.S. 28 (new brass coloered) WLR. 43.0 Varget avg. vel. 2670 E.S.22 All with Lapua brass and Sierra 175 SMK Smallest group .50 So much for the Fed 210m that i always thought so much of.

Gary Kaney
N.W., ILL., - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 12:07:00 (ZULU)

Duman and Gary; I just got a new 8lb Jug and one about last november. I didn't look at the lot number and haven't opened the last one yet but It all seems to shoot about the same. Not saying it always did but for me it always did. I learned to use VARGET from a friend of mine who had a friend... and then got on here and PeteR got me interested again. They have another very similar in performance type. I think they call it Bench Mark. IT's smaller than Varget and just a little more powerful or at least I hit maximum a little sooner but it's really nice stuff. As we tried it, we found about the same accuracy so didn't make the big change to it as I usually have about 16lbs and use it in everything from .223 to 300mag. (now some might say it don't work in .300 mag.) my e-mail would send you the load and the precautions that you absolutely must use Magnum primers.

-.-. .- .--. - -.. --- -.-. you got it right.-.-.- Did anyone ever use 5 letter code groups ciphered and have to decode that stuff without a machine? Another "company" I worked for once used it quite a bit. What made it bad was the code changed every few hours. I've lived too long and tried to do too much and now I'm just hopelessly lost in my iggienorance. Any body know if the ship board license is still good or still required? I know the Coast Guard was the first to quit using the Morse (radio version is actually continental). Another lil fact just in case the archives will be interested someday is that True Morse is wire Telegraph language spoken mainly by Rail Road people only. I once had a friend that could run about 35 or 40wpm in either language. I could never get my fingers to move faster than about 40 till the electronic keyboards came along. Some could actually read it about 60wpm but couldn't take it down that fast. There was once a fellow name T.R. McElroy who had the record at send and receive 60 wpm. and that was no electronics involved. Just a vibrating "Bug". My FCC Engineer friend Joe Johnson (there are 2 of them there so if you know one that doesn't do Morse he's the othere one. I think both are retired now could do faster than 60 with electronics. My top speed on code groups was about 35 or 40 depending on how much beer I'd had. (45 with a little Budweiser) but license requirements for ship board is 20. Code groups at 25 was about where they send some code groups and try that one sometime.

Sorry but thanks for letting me go back in time a minute. Ken see what you caused.

Brogers
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 14:05:12 (ZULU)

Bill, alcohol got me to 18 WPM send/ receive on a leg key. Without it, I was stuck hard on 15. That's the point where it becomes a response rather than a thought process. High hurdle for me. I knew a guy who used to break morse on ciphers, writing the clear text as he heard the code. That's trigraphing as he went--amazing mental dexterity. I was just a back-up on my team---4th man deep on the bench. Spent most of my time blowing shit or spotting. Good thing to, I have a shit fist (sporadic rythm)---affects dancing with the wife too. I always heard the beat of a different drum....heheh.

Morse is just one way to say hello. The more tools in your kit....especially the ones in your head that don't weigh much...the better. I think this experience will focus our Forces to training.

There are seven Raptors left. Ken M--email inbound. It is doable with more info needed.

Hahahaha. Let's give these shooters the tools to kill these shitheads around the clock! 24/7 scunion on the BGs--put a healthy fear of Allah in their hearts from sun-up to sun-up.

I know that I can't begin to right all wrongs---I know that I can't identify all that is wrong---I know that I am good at few things but not good at all things by a long shot, too. But I sure do miss those dudes (Viet-vets) who taught me a little of what they knew. I wish they were here now with these kids---teaching them now what they tried to teach me then. I wish we listened to them when they were here teaching--and I wish we hadn't learned so much more than them with our little TDY wars---ohhh, how much smarter we all think we are over those old dinosaurs! War isn't like they said at all---so why train that hard? I think now some of us know why....but it is a bit late.

The only good thing is: We are currently making a whole new generation of "those dudes." Our kids are seeing what is working---and what isn't--and they will begin the cycle again. I think that knowing what not to do is the most important thing---the rest is easy if you get that down-pat. One thing not to do is to pass up any training opportunity or to lighten up just because it rained today...hard is as hard as you can make it. Everything else is soft---and soft dies easily in a long, drawn conflict.

Now this is war---those other things we took so much experience from was, well, an engagement here and there. We discounted that which we were told about war by those who lived actual war because we found it to be different.

Until recently, that is...In a year or two---the cycle of true competance of the force will have come full circle in my time. Carter hollowed my army, Raegan paid the Vets to build it back--and how they did!--then GHWB used it--and how it performed!Then, Clinton hollowed it down yet again...now, we are gaining the old skill sets needed to focus on the important things again...and there is talk of building it back up a bit--yep, a full circle. I know I don't want to go much past the peak before I retire---the 90s were tough to take once after seeing where we were at the begining of the eighties. That part of the circle is no fun. Twice is enough for the low end, but first to see twice at the top before i hang up these spurs!

Joe M.

Joe Mahon
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 16:11:12 (ZULU)

Joe,

Years ago as an A+++ personality mustang lieutenant/junior captain I knew I was going to put myself into an early grave. I could feel it in anger, frustration, and blood pressure. Some of the best advice I got from a peer, Captain Jay G., was:

"Don't worry about what you can't change. Everybody with a brain sees it. Cream rises and the sXXX will sink.

"Take your small part of the Army and make it better."

Best advice I ever got.

Believe it or not you are now one of us dinosaurs that our young troops will remember (like we did to the NCOs who formed us). Shoulder the load. Lead by example. It's worth it.

Make our small part of the Army better. The troops deserve it, and our country deserves it. Somewhere down the line, an NCO or officer YOU touched will make a difference.

Godspeed. Keep the beans, bullets, batteries, and water coming, brother.

sinister
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 16:56:11 (ZULU)

WARNING RIOT STARTING COMMENTARY FOLLOWS;

I believe that during the draft everyone able at all got their shot. We got some good people in the military that way because the weeds left the Garden in droves and those who were really suited to the task mentally and physically stayed. Pre MTV we had kids that at least had to clean up once in a while and learn to make a bed tight. Draft made a college man out of many who knew they couldn't/or didn't want to try to cut it. At any rate it aged them some and made them realize that the world situation was more important the Britney Spears belly button or the number one CD of the week or blue hair. Hippies and Vietnam soldiers alike at least got a chance to see their own polarity in the pond and got a glimpse of life in reality. Now all they see are things we older people consider a waste of good lives and a human declination to what feels good at the moment and whats cool now being the driving force. Volunteers were for a time at least affected by the "Big Picture" method of recruiting and now the "Army of one!" now takes it to the bottom of the deck instead of dealing off the top. I don't expect to see it change but I can only wish it would.

I didn't direct this to you Joe, but God help us all if we lose those like you and Dave and Gooch and Rick and Sarge and all the others around here my feeble mind won't recall at this moment. Some don't believe in the draft and you have my sympathy in advance but I was there... then and now. It shaped your life and your existance. Most of us knew we were looking at the Military one way or another as soon as mom cut the strings and it did enter into the character of the whole younger generation. And then came MTV.

Brogers
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 17:34:41 (ZULU)

Density Altitude- Ken, the Kestrel instructions sounds like something that should be in the articles section. HINT, HINT!! (easy for me to say, I don't have to/know how to do it)

Draft-dunno about that reinforcing citizenship values. Did grow some folks up, also got the kids from different parts of the country together. Kinda reduced the "those dumb smucks" attitudes a bit. Getting the kids of the self styled elite in contact with the real world wouldn't be a bad thing.

WR Moore
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 18:21:54 (ZULU)

I just finished a GREAT book called "A TABLE IN THE PRESENCE". It is written by 1st Bn/5th Marines Chaplain during OIF and the taking of Bhagdad.

If you are a Christian or Spiritual at all you need to read it. If you are agnostic or athiest, you need to read it. Talks about God, war and men. Fucking outstanding.

Click on my name for the amazon link

Out

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 19:17:17 (ZULU)

Sinister,

You have Duty Roster mail inbound n/a.

Doc

Doc Holloway
The beautiful Ozark boonies, MO, USA - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 20:27:32 (ZULU)

good evening gents,are we all playing nicely today..

I think some kind of draft is a good idea, it doesn't nesseseraly have to mean combat service. but some kind of service for the country and some kind of disciplin is a good idea. I can definately tell the difference when we get a trainee here wether he has completed some form of Military Service or not. Those that have are easier and quicker to train, more reliable, better team players and fit in better.

Whilst researching the current european firearms laws over the last days i read some where that a stipulation for private gun ownership was having completed some Military service, i think it was Italy, or the Tirol region..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 20:50:07 (ZULU)

All: Do me a favor and drop me from all future conversations. I don't want to monitor this board.

CDC'
Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 21:24:46 (ZULU)

CDC, what sort of attitude is that?

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Saturday, April 17, 2004, at 22:35:33 (ZULU)

I think I could live with that.

Brogers
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 02:34:50 (ZULU)

Guys i'd like the straight poop on the ruby ridge/ Randy Weaver thing, i'm doing some research and trying to sift the propaganda from the truth, can some one give me a brief out line of this incident. Thanks Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 03:23:39 (ZULU)

Peter...See "From Freedom to Slavery" by Gerry Spence, Weaver's attorney............

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:30:24 (ZULU)

Weaver was solicited by a federal agent to saw off shotguns....failed to appear on warrant....secretly stalked for over a year by US marshals who confronted without a warrant, and shot his armed young son in the back after shooting his dog when the boy upon seeing the man shoot his dog fired at him and turned and ran....friend of Weaver shot and killed a Marshall in the gunfight....officers were in camo and unidentified.....siege began....Lon Horiouchi (sp.?), FBI HRT Sniper fired a round at Weavers wife through the window of the cabin door as she held it open for the retreating Weaver....She had her infant in her arms when the bullet blew half of her face away....10x scope within 100yds.....Weaver was convicted on the firearms charge but cleared every other charge....the Feds. settled out of court for over 3 Million....FBI was fined by the judge for contempt and were found to have tampered with and destroyed evidence....

Mark Smith
LakeCormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:45:29 (ZULU)

CDC'

Feel free to not monitor this board, just as we'll feel free to discuss whatever and whomever we choose.

jcopeland
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:49:02 (ZULU)

Thanks for the info, on and off line.. looks like i found web site of a political party that is actualy telling the truth..

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:51:37 (ZULU)

JC...........AMEN........

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 04:57:22 (ZULU)

Off to Augusta, GA. again. Anyone in the area want to hook up for a brew and small talk, post and I'll check the board on Monday.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 11:54:39 (ZULU)

G'day folks,

Joe,

Keep the faith mang, you are doing one hell of a job over there for our country. And I thank you a million for you and your compadres effort...Youse guys are making it happen, taking freedom to a land which needs it, and bringing some major pee and scunion to the BG's, we are proud of you...

Brandi(sis) is down in KC having some tests run to see if her ticker is up to Army specs..Kind of a rough time, if she fails she is out of Army after 9 years in, if she passes she goes to Iraq..She wants to pass..Back home they don't understand why she would want that, to go to Iraq, leave her family behind, to go to war...She has two answers to that..Duty..Honor..Plus she says she's tired of practicin'...I couldn't be more proud of that girl..

Bill, Dan,

With all that sweet talk this past week, I'd almost think youse guys were swappin spit...

Speakin of spit, woo hoo, getting some copenhagen in this week....

Pete,

should be getting some post soon, labelled steel tubes...keep those spaceships orbiting, and those lugs lapped mate...I tell you what, there was some new split that was about Saturday nite I wouldn't have minded lapping her lug..more of a bore lap though...

Did a bit of lampin round Newcastleton and Kielder Friday nite, was pretty damned cool actually...I hit 0/2, hahh, but had a hell of a laugh, good experience...Might make this a weekly ritual, was good fun..this boy needs some trigger time...

Catch ya later ladies

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 12:52:07 (ZULU)

jc, marc s: You win.

To anyone who does a Google search and finds me here: I'm leaving because of the noise. From this point on I'll no longer monitor this board and will no longer defend myself here. Believe what you read to the extent that you trust the objectivity and candor of the individual contributor and the rigor of the argument made. You'll notice that some of these guys are quite sharp. Others aren't. Consider the source.

(I edited this and my previous post.)

CDC'
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 14:27:09 (ZULU)

Peter, incoming mail via roster method.

Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 14:34:51 (ZULU)

JR,

Sis is in my prayers; I'll ask God to grant her wish and then to watch her six...

Joe M

Joe Mahon
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 15:33:02 (ZULU)

....On behalf of Bill, I accept the Winchester......(not holding my breath though)

Mark Smith
Lake Cormorant, MS, - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 15:38:21 (ZULU)

Brian, just read your post on the chaplain....very good. Thanks for posting it...watch your six and be safe....

Marc
Pa, the best damn one on the planet USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 17:01:22 (ZULU)

JR; it was a hell of a date but the lovin was worth it.

Marc; Watch your UPS I'm sure you'll have a package coming.

Wow; "the information, intelligence, experience, education and intellectual honesty of the individual contributor credible. "

I thought for a minute there "he" was talking about me.

Well, we can't all be intellectuals I guess. Sorry I don't meet your specifications "name I can't mention goes here". GEE "You" I hope your not leaving on account I'm stupid. "You" being such a great judge of character should avoid places like this where stupid people lurk. Try AR-15.com there's no foolishness there. Sorry guys up there in AR country, I wouldn't do it too you but I know you guys are tough!

Seriously, one more time. Why don't you just drop this idea that everyone you speak too or is around you has to be a Rocket Scientist (apologies Pete) and let's put this bullshit behind us. You are supposed to be the smart one. I never called you stupid and I never said your were an idiot or anything else you've labeled me with and only offered you a chance to kiss my ass a couple of times. Surely you can deal with that. If I ever see you I'll buy you a beer and you can try to kick my ass if you still want too, How's that?

IF you decide to leave ask yourself how happy that's gonna make you? I may be stupid and sometimes I get close to anger at things I read but I'll be damned if I am dumb enough to let somebody get my goat with a damned key board. And you aren't either! You can argue with me about anything anytime but drop the name calling and the references to being stupid and we'll do fine. Get over the idea that you can ignore people you feel above and life and try to deal with it a little more gently. Even if you go you need that change.

Brogers
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 17:42:50 (ZULU)

Doug and Bill, incomming via roster email..n Bill, i ain't no rocket scientist, although that is pretty straight forward, its the flight dynamics that baffle me.

JR, i is like a kid waitin for christmas. n if you would get your fingerin the trigger guard rather than other such upening more often you might hit summot, just make sure you don't do a 2 - 1 with your other gun..

I pulled the barrel on the stainless remmy today, then i pulled the heym too, i'd love to know how i fucked that barrel up, sucker went from 1/4 moa all day to 2 inch groups .. it must have realy taken a ding when Rebecca knocked it of its bipod.. any way, the stainless factory barrel fits the chrom molly action as far as CHS goes just perfect, seats them hornadys with just a little pressure, exactly the same as the heym was set up.

Jon b.. i sat the stainless barreled action in my brit cammo HS stock and it looks real cool, the colourslook great together.

gonna pick up the boys action from the engravers and then sand blast it tomorow, then i'll be truing the stainless action and driling and tapping the screw holes out to 8/40. busy this week, have to bed the mauser, and finish 4 700's

add that to the DIY and Garden . busy man i am,.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 19:13:40 (ZULU)

REF: AR-10 WARNING!

When assembling the bolt into the bolt carrier, do not press the bolt too far back into the bolt carrier.

There is a design characteristic (flaw) which will allow the gas rings to expand and catch locking the bolt into the rearward position.

This condition is not repairable and the assembly must be replaced.

Be warned.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 20:38:50 (ZULU)

Pete the Rocketeer,

Probably what it was, trigger finger's pickled..Should probably southpaw on the other, but got no sense of direction with me leftie, might end up makin a beeeg mistake, WOOPS sorry doll..never know though, dirty girls round here...Might not go for the 2-1, but wouldn't count the 71 out(that would be the 69 with 2 fingers, oh you get the point....) Personally I go for the 68, you do me and I'll owe you one..Nah, couple peek a boo shots under the lamp, wasn't really confident on either shot when all I could see was eyes, no body, will get more acquainted with the kitty like dogs, was real good fun!! They can sure rip a lamb in bits eh, sheesh, drug one back that had a newborn lamb stripped from front legs to rear, all was left was spine and rib cage inbetween..Back home we have coyotes to keep the fox at bay, don't see much of 'em though they're there..when the tubes come in shoot me a email, I'll give you the lowdown on the what-nots on HS and such..When you're up, drop off your Heym at my place or Jons, and will give it a good proper once over, figure out what the skinny is...Tell you what, f*** Ettrick, should be huntin Kielder north of Geoff's, saw more bloody deer Friday nite.....

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 21:14:12 (ZULU)

To bring the curious up to date, CW4 Hugh Denson of the 5th Army Small Arms Readiness Group (US Army Reserve) and about a dozen volunteers from the Texas State Rifle Association trained three groups of soldiers from the 1st Cavalry Division and two heavy Enhanced Separate Brigades bound for Iraq. The Texans trained the groups to shoot the M14 to 600 yards on known distance ranges at Camp Bullis, Texas, outside San Antonio.

Those kids are now downrange and earning their spurs.

The Army will continue with programs to train soldiers to engage targets to 500 and 600 yards with M16 Designated Marksman Rifles and 7.62 systems as divisions and brigade units of Action identify their needs. The rotation system is a little off now, so the Army will adjust schedules.

I'll let the Roster know when and where we'll need help again. until, then, cool your jets, please.

The Army picks up gas, meals, room, and a small stipend to make up for the lost time from the real job.

We have an AR-10T in Afghanistan that I'm told shoots REAL straight.

Yesterday my son shot 100 rounds of .22 Short CB caps from Grandma's Remington 41. My family has started training our fourth generation of riflemen. Grandma was tickled it was with her rifle.

The Army Recruiting commercials they aired on the History Channel on the network airing of "Band of Brothers" are getting better.

The line I remember most from the whole series of DVDs/tapes was the last, from an interview in the episode of recollections from the actual Easy Company vets themselves ("We Stand Alone -- Together"). Dick Winters (the Commanding Officer) recalled a letter to a man from his company, and he told the interviewer about it.

A grandson had asked "Grandpa, were you a hero (in World War II)?"

"No. But I served in a company of heroes."

sinister
Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 23:53:31 (ZULU)

Sinister, question on the 77 grainers from Sierra. I was slow to start using them because BC advertised was not much better than a 68 or 69 grainer. This week I shot a bunch of the 77's and they fly a great deal better than the 68 or 69 grainers. Now the question have you guys figured a better BC for the 77s than advertised and do you have much wind drift and elavation dope on them? Thanks for your time.

Was shooting a GA Precision built AR/SPR and man that thing shot great! Out to around 750 I ahd to remind myself it was 223 and not 308. Made hits all the way to 1100 yards before running out of internal elevation adjustment and mil to hold over on the M3 LR scope. What a blast. Mike S. you have to cacth me to gte it back.LOL Seriously I called George on my way back from Camp Roberts and said to make me one. Man can that guy build a rifle.

Bill, glad to see you back to normal on here. I like our conversations

CDC, well your decision to make but no support from me on it. I hope you rethink this one.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 01:14:45 (ZULU)

Brogers, did you have a little dust storm today?

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 02:04:23 (ZULU)

CDC',

I win? I didn't realize there was a competition. I was just astounded at the arrogance of your saying your weren't going to monitor the board, therefore no one should mention your name.

In all fairness to you I do (did?) enjoy the links you've posted and other informative items, both world-view and firearms. I just think you need to get over your animosity towards Mr. Rogers.

And yes, some of the contributors to this board are quite sharp. I wouldn't presume to say otherwise about anyone in a public forum even though I was MENSA qualified over 30 years ago. Everyone has something to contribute, you just have to be astute enough to see it sometimes. If that sounds arrogant it is unintentional. It was just meant to show you something if you can look past your own arrogance to see it.

Even though I disagree with your name calling and obvious dislike for certain members of this forum I think you should continue to monitor this board and contribute to the discussions, but keep your hostility in check.

jcopeland
Cordova, TN, United States - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 04:19:23 (ZULU)

Fred; she blew! There was more wind on the plains today than on this roaster if you can believe that. I went out and shot a little anyway but getting down wind is the only way to make it work. I should have taken my Sharps. At least it's too heavy to blow off the table while I'm checking the target. Ammo sticks pretty good too unless you set it end. Then it gets blown off anyway.

I'm not gonna add anymore hostility to this situation with he that I can't mention but someday perhaps the learned one will realize that ignorance around him does not rub off. Even those considered hopelessly stupid may have something to contribute to the knowledge of the great ones. If we were all the same intellect with exactly the same knowledge what would be purpose of this board?

Brogers
Monday, April 19, 2004, at 13:02:55 (ZULU)

Mike, I don't know the particulars on the Sierra 77, but we have gone to heavy 77 Match Kings almost exclusively. We had our pick of all the heavy magazine-length 5.56mm bullets (68, 69, 73, 75, 77, and 80, both moly-coated and raw). We routinely use the 77 for 200 and 300 yards, to 500 yards with rack-grade M16A2s and M16A4s, and for Rattle-Battle (rapid fire) at 600, 500, and 300 yards. Still using the 80s at 600, and 90s at 800-900-1,000.

The newest M16A2/M16A4 variant is the USAMU Designated Marksman Rifle. We've built the first 20 of 220 weapons for the 3rd Infantry Division using Krieger, Schneider, Hart, and Douglas 1-8 barrels.

We turn the barrels from blanks, free-float them with a Daniel Defense M4 12.0 (12-inch) full rail forend, install a Knight 2-stage trigger, and test fire with 77s. We ship the rifles with a Harris S-L bipod and 500 rounds of 77s. Accuracy is about 1.5 MOA (off the shoulder) to 600 yards, MOA out of a machine rest.

Shawn Ratigan of Trijicon says 77s out of a 20-inch M16 barrel fly the same trajectory as 308s out of an AR-10T. That works out handy since the reticle of their 7.62 ACOG scopes will work on both an AR-10 and an SPR/DMR. Haven't tried it with an M3LR or MRT, but imagine they'll fly the same.

sinister
Monday, April 19, 2004, at 15:09:02 (ZULU)

"This is tedious. If I ever post here again, I'll - at no charge - give Bill my .308 Winchester."

Bill maybe this is what you win?

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 15:47:43 (ZULU)

6.8 SPC... Anyone think this is as rehash of the 6 & 7 mm TCU's? But so they could use thier own designation they went with a .277 bullet? I may have to build a 24" Bull barrel 7 TCU flat top upper to play with.

Joe, I will let her know.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Steve Dickerson
Home of the Alamo, Texas, U. S. of A! - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 15:59:09 (ZULU)

Kevin,

Thanks for the heads up on the AR-10.

Dirty Steve

6.8 is on a different case from the 6 & 7 mm TCU. I believe 6.8 is using a shortened 30 Remington case.

Jerry
Baltimore, MD, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 17:14:22 (ZULU)

Hi everyone.

This may already have been posted here, but there's another great program supporting our troops. It's called Books For Soldiers, and has a website: http://booksforsoldiers.com/

Troops can log-in and request a specific title. They do CDs & DVDs too. Looks like a good deal.

Chris... I'm too close to deployment to make it. Sorry, buddy, we'll shoot together when I get back. Who knows, I might have my B4 identifier by then. I'll be looking for really large fields of groundhogs then!

Bill

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 17:23:24 (ZULU)

Jerry; What would I do with a Savage 99 sniper rifle?

The seriousness of this conflict is greatly overrated.

Insults to me are just like the Kansas wind. Just as soon it didn't blow but, when it stops all the tumbleweeds are gathered up in the fence row where they can be burned and forgotten.

Brogers
Monday, April 19, 2004, at 20:53:45 (ZULU)

I finally found my password! 8-)

Major Joe, 5 packages went out today, including some of the stuff you requested.

Joe

Joe
PA, USA - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 21:28:37 (ZULU)

I forget whether it's been mentioned here, but Rifles Only in Kingsville, Texas, is hosting the Sniper's Hide Cup match on May 14th through 16th. It's a team competition with a prize list which includes McMillan, Premier, Badger, GAP, HD Rifle, Strider Knives, Surefire, Tactical Response Magazine, Tac Pro, USO, SWFA, LaRue Tactical, and Nike, among others.

Mark LaRue contributed a LaRue falling-plate target to the competition at Paris, Texas, last month, which I was lucky enough to win. I don't know what he's contributing to the match in May, but it sure is handy having your own LaRue target!

My partner Tony and I will be at that match. I'd sure like to see some guys off this site who I haven't met yet - it's nice to put faces with names, and I know it's going to be a fun and challenging event!

Click on my name for a link to a series of posts about that match. Rifles Only's web site is, oddly enough:

http://www.riflesonly.com

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 19, 2004, at 23:39:40 (ZULU)

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