Sniper Country Duty Roster

Sarge,

Email inbound with a small prayer atached :) :) (but no files attached...)

Bill

Bill Moore
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 01:49:25 (ZULU)

Gooch,

Email inbound via roster with question from Steve in it. No attachments. Hit me directly with reply.

Bobby Whittington
Grandfield, OK, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 02:05:49 (ZULU)

Bruce: One caveat to that plan: Enlisted only get the 10 grand. If any officer complains---give him the boot. You see, we can cure two ills with one pill---we square away our younger force with deserved compenstation, AND we identify the self-serving pricks clogging up the officer ranks. Elegant. I like it...

Joe M.

joe mahon
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 06:15:40 (ZULU)

Jody. Stand on the lake shore and shoot at Canada. Talk about a big, soft backdrop! Yeah, flacid liberal limp-wrists are uneconomical when compared to a good dirt berm....but then, what the hell else would they be good for?

joe mahon
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 06:35:25 (ZULU)

Sorry Bruce you wont get any support for Ben Stein's idea from me. No doubt that the soldiers deserve a 10K across the board pay raise or more but raising taxes is not the way to pay for it.

That 5% surcharge will put people out of work and reduce the rate of recovery for our economy. How about cutting some bullshit programs, pork bills, and fraud, waste and abuse of the tax funds to pay for it?

Why is it that every time there is something that the government needs they come knocking at the door of the top x% earners? These producers of our society are responsible for small business, large businesses, and everything in between. Over tax the producers and you will tax the country into oblivion. When all of these producers continue to be punished for their achievements by paying for the takers they will eventually just stop producing. Ever read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged? If not do so then rethink your support of that harebrained idea - I know Ben is far from harebrained but that is a truly foolish proposal.

Who is John Galt?

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 07:34:10 (ZULU)

I am sure this has been posted before but ....

How Taxes Work . . .

> This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does make you think!!

> Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

> The first four men ? the poorest ? would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man ? the richest ? would pay $59.

> That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement ? until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

> "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

> The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six ? the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

> The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

> And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

> But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

> "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

> "That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

> "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

> The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!

> And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

> Where would that leave the rest? Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this rather straightforward logic!

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 07:38:36 (ZULU)

LTCHIP;

"Who is John Galt?"

Hear here!

A principle of objectivism; "Every man has the right to the fruits of his own labors. To take those fruits from him by means of force or fraud is wrong."

A poor man never gave me a job.

A guy named Marx once wrote something like, "To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities." I seem to remember his economic/social theories failed the test on several occasions.

Since there are fewer wealthy they represent fewer votes. You see, democracy is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 08:59:14 (ZULU)

LTChip and Kevin Mussack: We're on the same page.

Joe M (or any of you active guys): If you get the time, check out the link (Click my name and search for the phrase, "Headline: Bush's Odd Warfare State.") and tell me what you think of this guy's argument. It's really hard to figure a fair market value of going into combat (if I did it only for the money it would take a LOT) but this guy thinks that our people are doing okay.

All: Any time CBS and "The Progressive" start shedding tears for our troops, I smell a rat. They want to raise taxes, attack Bush in an election year and hurt recruiting. These people don't give a s--- about our troops.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 13:55:18 (ZULU)

BKS, your garage looks like a RPG hit a UPS truck? My guess is that you’re not alone. Several of my packages delivered by UPS appear that the truck took an RPG hit.

Patron Mike, thanks for the offer, but 11.5 wide is about 5 sizes too large LOL! I’ll check out the Bellvilles, I’ve just been getting Altamas since about 91 IIRC, so I was sticking with what I knew. You know. A new ’14 eh? Way cool! That brookie-field should be the cat’s meow, but I don’t want to know who you had to stick up to get it ;-)

Major Santa, on the Altamas, they’re also $100+ for the desert boots. Not much more, I think it was something like $110 or some such. Your comments on the QC of them has me baffled though. Not about the size thing, that’s a FACT in my book. I don’t understand it, but they all feel like 7R’s to me. Again, too big and narrow. The part about them rotting off though, that’s the part I don’t get. I’ve had three pairs total since way back then, and all have been great. The only reason I’m buying more now is because mine were screwed up in the flood, and the insurance is paying (HEHEHEHE!) for replacement. I hate to think about the miles I’ve put on them, it would make my knees ache. I wonder if the QC stuff isn’t “recent” and due to the spool up for you guys over there.

MK4, HA! I like it: "Gays, God and Guns." I’ve had the same “talk” with my congressman. Got a nice reply back this last time, he might have “gotten the message”. Still, it’s actions that matter, not words. We’ll see.

Rob, might have to take you up on that. I checked my “local” home dumpo, and it was a no-go. No Krylon at all. I’ll drop you a line this evening, after I get home, on the roster mail. Just the desert colors... I have no need for black!

And thinking of Brownells, has anyone got the freeby catalog from the SHOT show yet? I haven’t, and I’d like one! I did get the scanned badge thing though...

Joisey Steve, re: Para the rest of the JackAsses from Washington in there too ! As Jimmy Buffet would say “that takes care of two problems right there!”. I’m for it, assuming that the military could contain their feelings on the matter and actually give them chutes. Nah, nevermind. Does this fall into the category of dumping pork on them too?

Howdy Patron Dave! Good to see you back again. Just one question... what’s a “leaf”? HA! I’ll remember that.

CDC, excellent point. And while I’m thinking of it, shoot me your physical again, I lost that when the contact info went bye-bye.

Dirty Steve, wasn’t it a Texas police department that got “embarassed” for making doughnut runs with the department slick? Uh, two dozen custard filled, going up in the giant fan ;-)

Bruce, my friend, I’ll try it, but I have serious doubts as to the effect it will have. “Halls of congress” and “conscience” are two words very seldomly heard in the same sentence in a positive way. Very often as “do the halls of congress have no conscience?” I hear that a lot.

LT Chip, Very well done! Objectivist epistemology is one of my greatest hits. And Rand is my favorite, even topping Nietzche. Who is John Galt? Well, for starters, that was the name of my cat. I found it a good conversation starter when someone would ask me (wondering at the name) “who is John Galt?”. HA!

Did I miss anything? (GRIN) Oh yeah, try “Capitalism: the unknown ideal”. Good stuff.

Bravo
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 15:36:13 (ZULU)

Re: Taxes

Don't misunderstand me. I am all for getting the government out of my wallet, and I am DEFINITELY not a "Share The Wealth" proponent.

But I am damn sure a fan of Ben Stein and his conservative and fiscally responsible philosophies.

My support of his proposal was prompted by the fact that I get funds and goods to ship to Joe from people who are struggling to make house payments (or buy a new rifle!), but not from the captains of industry and politicians.

We are at war. Our troops deserve better pay. Stein proposed this plan to help them, and included himself. When you look at the real estate holdings of John Kerry and other politicians and realize that they are being protected by our troops who are in some cases making less than their butlers, I say something is wrong.

I stand by my support of this idea. But I would amend it to include MAJ Mahon's suggestion to limit it to enlisted only.

Maybe a better solution would be to just go to a flat 10% tax and put the tax lawyers and half the IRS out of business, but that has the same chances of happening as me getting elected Pope.

And, yes, I have read "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead". No poor man ever gave me a job, either. But I'm damned tired of our folks in the sandbox and elsewhere needing socks and Chapstick while politicians go back and forth between their $7 mil. Georgetown home and their $10 mil. summer place on Nantucket, and then want to raise MY taxes. And pay me in 120 days when they contract for 30!

Sorry about the rant, guys, but IMHO, the "elite" are not pulling their weight as regards our troops.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 15:48:31 (ZULU)

Ancient chinese proverbs,

Virginity like bubble, one prick, all gone.

Man who run in front of car get tired.

Man who run behind car get exhausted.

Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day.

Foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife upright organ.

Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.

Man with one chopstick go hungry.

Man who eat many prunes get good run for money.

Baseball is wrong: man with four balls cannot walk.

Panties not best thing on earth but next to best thing on earth!

War does not determine who is right, war determine who is left.

Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house.

Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.

It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.

Man who drive like hell, bound to get there

Man who stand on toilet is high on pot.

Man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.

Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs.

Crowded elevator smell different to midget.

Man who has sex with woman in field get piece on earth

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:11:00 (ZULU)

"the "elite" are not pulling their weight as regards our troops"

First of all using the term "elite" invokes exactly the type of class envy the socialists use anytime they get a hankering to raise taxes. Again, it does not matter that Stein was the one proposing it, I am well aware of his politics, but in this case he is dead wrong.

Second, could not agree more that the troops deserve to be provisioned and paid better than they are.

Third, take a look at what the government spends on less worthy things and petition to pay the troops by reducing spending in these areas. You could pay every Joe a 6 figure combat bonus and still not be done cutting the immoral pork spending.

www.CAGW.org is a good place to start. Hell, the farm-subsidy bill alone costs us $190,000,000,000 over 10 years. Cut that, by say, 20% and if we have 250,000 troops in combat then that is enough to give each of them $15,000 extra per year. There, I just solved the problem by looking at one single socialist program.

Then when you are done with that, you can start on the fraud and abuses of tax payer money.

In the end, we would have a properly compensated military, a balanced budget, healthier economy and lower taxes for all.

Sorry but raising taxes is never the answer when we are at the state we are now.

You imply that these evil top x%ers are not pulling their weight well when you are in the top tax bracket and in a state like CA or NY looking at your total tax liability (income, state, local, property, sales, and use) you are in the 60%+ tax bracket. That means that more than half of what they produce goes to the takers.

These taxes are taken through the threat of violence and imprisonment. We live in oppression in this regard. So, again, pay the troops more? Yes. But not by pointing a gun at Americans and robbing them further of their property.

LTChip

Edited for spelling and arithmatic

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:24:59 (ZULU)

Last week I said that Kennedy and Byrd are carrying water for this country's enemies. Jonah Goldburg says it better. Click my name.

Bruce Robinson: I'm not trying to be tedious, but I'm not convinced that our troops are underpaid. Let's let the active guys look at the link I posted earlier. I'd be more concerned with the claims that Marines in Fajullah were only getting a quart of water a day and are short of ammo.

Support our troops. Give 'em plenty of ammo.

Again, not to be contentious, but any tax that reduces the marginal incentive is not consistent with Conservative economic theory. We can take care of the troops without forcing a lot of small businesspeople to fire employees.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 16:33:18 (ZULU)

Fallujah rebels disapprove of Marine Snipers. Click my name.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:11:17 (ZULU)

One last salvo and I'm gonna drop it........

I've lived in CA (4 yrs.) and NY (7 yrs., plus commuted to NJ and was privileged to pay taxes in BOTH states, plus NM where I had some financial interests!) so I am well aware of total tax liability.

But I don't think that the plan that I referenced would result in small businesses laying off employees. I'm more inclined to think that it would impact large corporations, who would simply find another write-off to counterbalance the 5%. Or maybe cut out some of the Enron-style shenanigans that left hundreds of families with their life savings vaporized.

I'm as 'bout a small business as they come...the only way I get service from my government is the same way a heifer gets serviced by a bull.

I guess the reason I get so worked up about this is I hear from Joe about the basics that are needed over there. I solicit and receive donations that range from $10.00 to $1,000.00 from common folks who constantly say, "I wish it could be more." I would love to see a huge check come in from the politicians earning six figures, but it ain't happening.

Am I cynical? Do I think that there is a class division in this country? You betcha! When Diane Feinstein has a concealed carry permit for her .38 and no other Californians can do so, there is a class division.

End of rant. End of my comments on this subject. Y'all know how I feel about it, and ain't nobody gonna change my mind.

Still need some more money for Goodies for the Grunts, so pony up and make this old reprobate and his Child Bride happy! We still pay the freight, without help from Bill Gates........

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:17:55 (ZULU)

I am with Bruce on this. Our troops are way under paid. CDC/Dan, the salary the troops get may not sound bad in parts of the country but out here they are lucky to eat Burger King. In my neck of the woods the average crappy house costs over 600,000 and that my friend is in a former Ghetto! Former because guys like me have bought there because the good neighborhoods all cost over 1,000,000 now. UNless you want to communte three hours a day and then the normal homes are 500,000. I mean normal not great. Ask Mike S. what he just paid. Now I make fair money but without Lorraines great income as a Specials Nurse I would be stuck in a trailer. Thats with my income as a Police Sergeant and the side business. Now the dog faces I know would love to have my income as they cant afford a trailer around here.

By the way when I retire I am going to a land of house that cost under 200,000.

When we debate our troops pay, I like to look at it this way. How much do they pay me to be fairly safe here with the love of my family? How much would I want to be in Iraq, without my families love and with every damm fool wanting to kill me? With all the locals playing all sides againts the middle.

Man I say bend over and kiss the ground you are standing on. Then send all you can to help these poor guys and gals.

Thank God for the Heros we call Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen.

By the way Bruce just donated a bunch of Mildot Masters to soem troops about to deploy. Ken Hunter is getting some stuff together to send over and my offer to train with anyone about top go, for free still stands. Bruce, the Guys at Camp Roberts love you.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 17:57:57 (ZULU)

CDC, I liked the Goldberg piece. At first, I thought his credibility questionable, since he used two words in the same sentence that hardly ANYONE could get away with.... "kennedy" and "sober". He pulled it off though. The Orwell part was gravy.

Bruce, my friend, I understand what's being said. On both sides. Raising taxes on a portion of taxpayers is essentially the same as raising the minimum wage. Either way, companies (especially small companies) have the the option of less profits or less low-end workers. You know which gets axed first. And while I agree a flat tax is a BETTER way of going, it's certainly not "fair". A "FAIR" tax is derived by a long and difficult to understand equation: Annual budget / number of tax paying citizens = how much you need to write out a check for once a year. Even this is a bit "socialist", but a very small bit. Note, there's absolutely nothing included about a "withholding". Everyone should pay by check or cash the exact amount on the date specified. The larger the amount, the higher the shock value; the higher the shock value, the shorter incumbent politician terms get. I doubt that anyone will argue that the Individuals Representing Satan take what they do by coersion, force, or intimidation. By the way, I really like Ben Stein too, have for many years.

Might also want to check out one by Martin Gardner, the why's of a philisophical scrivener

Bravo
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:19:16 (ZULU)

Edited to remove reply to old post -

Clay Goret
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:24:04 (ZULU)

To Lt Chip

I would love life if you could do away with the farm subsidy. I would then be getting about $2500 to $3000 a head for my cattle and about $10.00 a bushel for my wheat or more. And you could now pay $5.00 a loaf for bread and about $25.00 to $30.00 a pound for steak. Please don't curse farmers with your mouth full.

Rex

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 18:27:09 (ZULU)

Mike M: In '88 one of my brothers was stationed near where you are. His E-6 housing allowance put him in a perfectly adequate condo. Newish, two stories, three bed, two baths, dining room, two car garage, patio, etc. His friends' places were similar. They were all E-6 and E-7. Good bunch of guys. Smart.

If - in some markets - housing allowances aren't keeping up, let's raise them.

I'd like to get some feedback from the active guys.

CDC'
Monday, April 12, 2004, at 19:07:38 (ZULU)

Rex's comment hits the nail square. Subsidies come out of the same pocket we pay other taxes & product costs out of. The beef price is exact on example. Unfortunately, as others mentioned, we like low product prices but are many times unwittingly paying for them in other ways. Screwed up system. Still the best there is. Been in a small family business before getting into LE, worked much harder then, no doubt about it. Why I appreciate things all the more now. Donations to the troops not tax deductible, oh well, not the reason I makes em. The fine men & women need our encouragement & support.

John Galt, heh heh, married a gal just like Dagney Taggart. Hooah!!

Carry on gentlemen, the course is noble and just.

Deputy Doug

Doug Bourdo
K Town, WI, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 19:50:44 (ZULU)

I'm trying to find a site which lists the records for distance shooting. (ie: 308 at 100M .xx group, 308 500M x.xx group, 50cal 2000m xx.xx group, etc) I've about googled this to death and haven't come up with anything useful. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Semper Fi

Lt Jarr
Miramar, CA, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 20:32:36 (ZULU)

Aww Rex,

First of all, take this as you will, but I am a farmkid, grew up in farming, and lived around farmers and ranchers long enough to know better..

Come on now, farmers ain't never happy, always cryin' in their beer..If it ain't rainin, it's too dry to grow a crop, if it's raining it's too bloody wet...But I haven't seen too many NOT driving new Dodge pickups every other year regardless of what they grow, been a long time since I seen a poor farmer..

Subsidisation is a false market, it's a helping hand, and should be used as such..If we grew what we needed and not what the insurance will cover, we'd be a lot better off..Simple supply and demand economics..We are subsidising over production, and have been doing so as long as I have been alive..That's not healthy, we almost waste more than we use...One thing that has helped is the subsidisation of corn alcohol for fuels, to get the market started..Now that ethanol enriched fuels has taken off, at least back home, we should let the market rule..But the farmers aren't keen to letting the cash cow go, because then hell, they'd have to survive just like the rest of us in business..Problem is they are wasting so much time and effort on gathering subsidies which could be used on the commodities market, which is HUGE, is a relatively real market, and they do make money on both..You tell us we'll be paying 25-30 for a steak if we let subsidies go, bullshit..we are paying too much for the goods now because of over-subsidisation and bloody crop insurance, too many middlemen...How many farmers you know grow a crop in the hope that they will be wiped out, so insurance will cover the expense, they can call a loss, AND the government can help them out as well...More than you would like to admit I bet..Well that's not right..it's not fair..and it's not real..

Tell me not to curse farmers with my mouth full, well kiss my ass, when a business can be run into the ground on the backs of the taxpayer and you still come out ahead, it ain't right...Money for nothing and the chicks for free..

Seen it all too often, the poor farmer in the pub cryin in his beer...

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 21:21:14 (ZULU)

Flash, its not 1988 and house prices are about five/seven times what they where here then. Give you an example a home that sold in 1994 for 120,000 just sold for 700,000 with not more than 20,000 worth of work being done. I know I lost in the bid war and saw what the owner had paid when purchased. Condos in SF go over one million. Homes there are all about 1.5million. Its crazy in California and guess what thats where a whole bunch of Marines are stationed.

All I am attempting to say is the troops need a good raise. We ask so much of them now and pay them squat. We all eat better than the guys protecting us.

As to wanting to hear from teh active guys, most of them are eating crap in Iraq or Afghanistan and wondering if they will make it back while we sit confortably on our asses debating if they get paid enough. Tell you what though, this week end I am on my way to teach a sniper class. I will ask the guys if they eat much steak while I am there.

Undude/Mike

MikeMiller
CA, - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 22:21:24 (ZULU)

"Ask and ye shall receive."

Fund was down into the red. Then today I get a box from an old pal from the days when I had a real job. The accompanying note had a $200.00 check clipped to it. We're back up to $197.20, and the box has a bunch of neat automotive tools that the motor pools will like.

Then got a call from Art. His printer has about finished the big poster for his shop.......he has his promotion for "Buy One For Yourself and One For the Troops" on it, and is posting Joe's wish list of other items that the troops need. He will act as a collection point.

God bless the common man. Sometimes, they're as uncommon as common sense, but I and CB seem to keep on running into them.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 22:50:54 (ZULU)

Forgot to add:

Also in the box from my pal was a signed, hard-cover first edition of "The Diesel Odyssey of Clessie Cummins" by his son, Lyle.

For me, that was like Christmas.

Y'all Stay Safe.

Bruce N. Robinson
Los Lunas,, NM, USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:04:02 (ZULU)

I previously posted about a "pawn shop rifle" - allegedly "Vietnam era" US Military, a Remington 700, pakerized, 7.62 24" barrel, stamped "U.S." above the serial number, with an olive green Redfield scope, Burris-type mounts, oiled wooden stock, no checkering. Several people replied via private e-mail, and indicated they could confirm the authenticity with SN information.

The SN is 3227XX. It looks interesting. I do not know if it is authentic, but the work was good.

Thanks.

P. Hayden
USA - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:27:17 (ZULU)

There are very few things our government could propose that I would deem acceptable for a tax raise, but increased income for soldiers is certainly one of them. I even think our Congressional and Executive elected employees need a substantial raise, but for different reasons.

As for Off-Base housing and ownership. My buddy Tim is a Major. He makes a respectable living in the Army, but where he's doing well is in real estate. Tim buys condos wherever he's stationed with his family. When he gets a new gig, about every two years, he simply buys a new place near his new base and rents the old ones out.

He's got one near Fort Carson, one near Fort Leonard Wood, one near Ft. Bragg, one near Washington D.C. somewhere (I wasn't allowed to know where he was then) and one in Bloomington, IN while he was a foreign language school. There are those guys that buy with there money, and those guys that rent for the same amount.

As for enlisted men, they need better family housing. I'd live with a tax increase for it, the problem is subsidized housing tends to turn into slums no matter who's in it. Then it becomes a problem.

I'd like to see the raise if for nothing else than to help retain some troops for longer ups. I'd like for our political offices to attract more qualified candidates. That's why I'd like to give politicians a raise.

Northside Tommy

Northside Tommy
Harwood Heights, IL, United States of America - Monday, April 12, 2004, at 23:53:50 (ZULU)

My take on military pay:

We pay them with public monies from the public fund then tax them to put it back into public fund. How stupid is that?

If we really want to give the military a raise, try not taxing them at all. No income tax. Just fill out a military tax form, such as naming it the 1040-M, that says, "I'm me, here's my social, and I am in the Army, stationed at so-and-so post, hold the rank of...." Simple. Of course, simple and the federal government are oil and water.

Hank
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 02:58:52 (ZULU)

Instead of taxing income, savings and investments how would it work to only tax consumption. National sales tax, money goes straight to the treasurey, no need for IRS or filing taxes. Sliding scale, common items none or low rate, fancier the expenditure the higher the rate. Corporations pay also.I like the idea that military pays no tax, makes sense. What do you all think?

Fred Hartman
Toledo, Ohio, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 03:49:30 (ZULU)

Fred,thats called a "goods and services tax" or GST here in Aus and a "v.a.t,value added tax" in other countries, and here, it sux.We were told the income tax would be lowered, it wasnt,we were told the "indirect taxes" would be done away with or lowered, they werent.The point is the gubmint cant be trusted to do the right thing with the systems in place now, they cant be trusted to bring in a newer fairer system.We see huge corporations paying next to nothing and folk just above the breadline paying 25% income tax and around another 40% indirect tax on fuel,food,clothing etc.

I tend to think J.R aint to far from the mark on his asessment of ag subsidies.good for the getter but bad in the big picture,especially for the "trading partners".

On a happier note,Dad and my boys,12 and 8, and I went deer huntin on the weekend,found some, but couldnt get a decent shot, so we gotta try again :) During the zeroing phase, Mr12 had a shot of the 6.5 swede,first time,nailed a fist sized rock at 110 metres.A Dad and Grandfather grinnin like fools all the way back to the house.life is good.

later lads

G.W

Gavan Willis
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 04:50:07 (ZULU)

Hank & Fred,

Both ideas sound good to me. For Military you pay no taxes on anything you purchase. Just show your Military I.D. card.

Nah..., probably too simple.

jc
Cordova, TN, United States - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 04:52:01 (ZULU)

I'm looking for a smith to do some work on my Kimber single stack 1911. If any of you guys have one you like please let me know.

I learned a valuable lesson this weekend. I was trying to call in some coyotes the way Bill explained it to me. Tried three or four spots on the ranch Saturday morning with no luck but that's not the point. I guess I need to pay closer attention when setting up my hide and pulling brush and branches around myself. I've never gotten poison oak before so I thought I was immune to it but I must have found some. My hands look like I have a disease of some kind. I want to scratch them with a wire brush and soak them in clorox. But that's not the worst of it. It was a hot day...I was drinking lots of water...Yeah...That's right...I got it there too! I told her about Brian's advice of "soaking it in cider" but it didn't go over too well. Man this is misery.

Marc S
CV, CA, - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 05:15:35 (ZULU)

Well i don't know about US troops bieng under paid, but the British troops certainly are underpaid in comparison to thier civilian counter parts. Soldiers living overseas with thier families recieve a living overseas allowance, this is to help off set stuff like large telephone bills to keep in touch with family, extra expense of travel to go back home for visists, and shit like that. If a soldier then deploys to NI Iraq or whereever they then loose the biggest part of this LOA, meaning that they are loosing money to go into harms way, sure they get separation allowance and in some cases "dangerouse activities pay" but it never covers the gap in the LOA. Troops stationed in the UK don't get the LOA obviously, but they are on lower pay anyway and don't have the tax free shopping benefits and tax free fuel like the guy abroad do.I always wondered why the hell we had to pay income tax, like paying part of your own damn wages to me. Hell i remember when i was stationed in Colchester, the Gov't demanded Poll Tax ( for emptying trash cans, keeping paths and roads cleen, providing a fire service/policeservice etc) damn, we cleaned our own camp, had a garrison military fire brigade and a regimental MP, but the Govt wanted me, living in a 6ft x6ft space in a room designed for 8 but with 9 occupants to pay the same damn poll tax as the civie down the road in his semi detached mansion, screw that i thought and didn't pay, luckily i got posted to Germany just before they took about 75% of 19 Inf Bde to court for non payment, there after the tax was removed at source from your pay.

Bieng a soldier in the UK sucks as far as pay goes when you consider what they have to do to earn thier money. same goes for the Police, Nurses, Firemen any one who does a shitty job, that realy serve the public, not like these damn politician pen pushers, seems to get the thin end of the wedge.

JR, that farmers new landrover in the UK usualy belongs the bank, the EEC screwed farming in the UK, and cheap imported produce has been screwing it ever since, sure they get paid to grow nothing in the set aside programme, and get subsidies, but Gov't policy makes many farmers part time redundant, the whole situation is a mess and thereare too many fiddles in the food chaín that lead to making extra money at the expense of quality and ultimately our health.. rather than subsidise farmers to grow nothing it would be better to have them grow to capacity,stop all imports of stuff we can grow our selves, subsidise the price in the shops to make the produce affordable to you and me and then ship of any excess to places that need food in return for them behaving thier selves and not bieng anti western..

Much needs sorting out. Soldiers Cops and Nurses need paying more right now. and hell so do i.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 06:29:11 (ZULU)

Bravo: The Altama's soles are the achilles' heal. Ha. I'd bet they were tested at Aberdeen or Natick (maybe both)--rocky loam or sandy clay in a temperate climate. All was well---they held up fine, and so they should for you in a similar environment. Now, here in the heat we have a different issue. The soles just melt right off these things---they chunk away, heels fall off, basically rot the rubber all to hell. They go away fast--surprisingly fast; and the Bellevilles do not have this problem at all. In the 'Stan, the altama boot separates along the lower edges of the suede and the soles; due to jagged roch-wear. Now, having been to the Big Island; I do not know of any boot that stands up to that kind of abuse. I walked out of new jungle boots inside of 30 days---while jungles manage other places just fine. So, the rocky-abrasion-hell is a wash for all boot designs. That leaves the desert as this design's weakness. Considering this is a desert boot---you'd think the rubber compound would be a bit more resistant to sandy-HOT abuse. Other compounds seem to do better...and that to me is just freakin' absurd! I say dye them all dark brown and issue them in lieu of black boots stateside; where they seem to hold up fine! Then, buy these Bellevilles for general issue for the desert. I heard it said the bellevilles cost twice as much. I've seen soldiers go through three and four pair of Altamas (routinely for grunts, almost as many for everyone else) in less than a year. You do the math. Heheh.

On the Mags: Dudes, Easy Rider is a violation of GO 1A; it has resulted in numerous FG Grade AR-15s and more than a few summary courts. If there is any nudity---don't send the mag into the CENTCOM AOR. They treat it just like an alcohol infraction. BTW---some of the reservists and a few active guys "dried out" over here---some painfully. With any luck, a good thing may come from this silly rule. I believe in tightly controlled consumption where appropriate ( rear base camps, refit, r&r etc---not on the lines of course). Some tell me "you can't control it (drinking), so why even try...?" To which I reply: "You are absolutely right...let's get rid of all CAT 1A explosives since we cannot control them and they are sooooo dangerous." I appreciated the candor from my NCOs that two beers brought to a briefing held after duty hours. And, after being keyed up for a month or two---I appreciated the same two beers' relaxing effects that made sleep all the easier in spite of the tensions of the recent past. Others have differing opinions. But, with discipline, we had beer taps in our mess halls and beer machines in our day rooms for years---never once saw anyone buy one or pull one before top said "OK" in the light infantry units. Ha. The cav, well maybe those guys ought not be allowed alcohol under any circumstances. Lack of discipline = abuses (in mech inf., not cav---cav was just plum nutzo). Solution? Nuke the commander if he let's drinking get outta hand. A bit o' rant eh? Much ado bout nuthin too.

LT Chip: I am with you 100%. A central government does one thing well: Common Defense. The rest, well it is watered down at that level by special interests---so it is less than effecient. Education for example. Best left to the county with the state maybe "leveling the playing field" with subsidies for poorer counties. But, all decisions on curriculumn and content---make it at the level where we can reach out and touch them. Accountability comes fast on a first name basis....and the feds' anonymity is the cover for fraud waste and abuse. Power down, folks. Get the important small shit in the hands of the local voter and keep washington out of our back yards. Hear-hear. Leave the big shit, like standing armies---in washington though. They handle that pretty good.

As for taxes---well, I am all for the flat tax. To each according to the sense of ownership through a stake. No more freeloaders! The evil rich will pay more just because "10% of more" is more than "10% of less." Besides, who do want paying your salary? A guy who has 5 grand to spare each year, or a dude with 50 grand extra? Now, we pick the 50 grand....and then along comes the government and levies a tax....on us poor 50-grand earners---because that dude paying us ain't gonna take a pay cut....is he? We will....Like taxing corporations---do you think that tax doesn't show up on the price of goods? Yeah, right.

My god....we are basically a bunch of freakin idiots in this country.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 11:24:55 (ZULU)

CDC,

Living on base is not as easy as you'd think. At FTCKY there is at least a 13 month waiting list. Apartments run about $600 a month. BAH for an E4 or lower used to be $395 with a $15 VHA. That leaves an E-4, who makes about $1300 a month after taxes, to use more than half their income to live off base while they wait for housing.

Did we starve. Most of us didn't. But it was a miserable exsistance, always waiting for some bill to go unpaid and have the commander called.

My youngest brother got back from Iraq yesterday. He's starting to get on his feet with E5 pay. He's going to HI in march to a new unit, and I think the shock of what stuff costs there is going to suprize him.

He waorked along side contractors who make $15,000 a month tax free. One of his guys got out and was back as a contractor 2 months later. $125,000 a year tax free for the same job.

COLA helps, but you only get a good COLA OCONUS unless you're someplace like D.C.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but of all I've read I like the idea of soldiers paying no taxes, on anything the best so far. For that matter let's take the tax off Social Security again. Probably never happen,, to many Senetors $100,000 a month retirement funds and lifetime health care to fund.

FatBoy...

Chris
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 11:43:50 (ZULU)

Charles S. Hunt - Well yes I would love to move over if I could get a reasonable Job Texas sounds a great place. But my partner has kids here and she doesn’t want to move, what we have to put up with.

JR – Welcome to the UK beaurocracy and as for letter telling them your not a psychopath, your in the UK if you want to own a weapon you must be one. (sorry police logic)

Dry
UK - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 12:16:42 (ZULU)

Farm subsidies...Frankly, I am suspicious of these. I would push for them with all my strength---if they were going where they were originally intended---the single-owner/operator; or the family farm. The agri-corps seem to be getting some of this---and that is bothersome on the face of it. Hit me offline if my brush on the topic is screwed up---I really haven't dugg into it (yet--I have land now).

Steve: got the box....it is exactly the one that I used in ranger school and the Q...damned fine tool.

Larry P: Hit me offline with your mailing addy. The tees have arrived. You get a free HD hat too; they were on sale. I got two of everything; I liked them myself. Heheh.

Bruce: I have to go rescue the NM Flag out at Camp VA---I dropped it off two days ago to be flown there. Once I do, I have a nice collection of "stuff" for ya. People have been tossing me trinkets (coins, patches, etc) for you. Soon, it will go out soon. So long as I can get away from this dang desk....

Dudes, The Housing allowance is set by grade, by market. In some areas (Fayetteville, NC for example) where the military is the only game in town---raising BAH precedes a raise in rent by only hours.

In other areas, a better solution is to close the damned base. If you have to pay a kid more in BAH than he makes in base pay just to get a trailer---close the base and expand FT Rucker, AL---where 300 bucks gets ya a 3 bedroom ranch with a pool. It makes no sense to quarter troops in DC or CA, NY or Mass; except the politicians who would rather screw the entire country (costs) to save a few hundred jobs and his ass. Inefficient basing is killing us. You want to know why it took so freakin' long to buy enough body armor? Because all our money is dumping into FT Lewis and other high cost areas.

Ooops. a rant. I, uh, let it get away...

Joe M

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 12:46:47 (ZULU)

Mil pay.

It aint all the dudeds in the mil that are underpaid. Its the junior enlisted that get the shitty deal. Check out the pay scale if you can find one. Most of the officer ranks are well paid. But the juniors have a real problem when you have to decide whether to buy a new uniform shirt for an inspection or feed your family this week.

Gooch
Hot Springs, AR, US of A - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 13:18:37 (ZULU)

Dudes, I like this thread today. Troopers need more dough, that's fer sure. been there, done that. But honestly---I do not need "more" and if I want more---I'll go out and earn it by stepping up a grade. I make plenty (but don't cut it none---the wife would flip out). But that is me....the soldier's do not have the financial horsepower to say that. The next BRAC needs to look at this issue hard; COLA areas may not be a great place to billet soldiers. But bases are cash-cows; nobody in office will give one up willingly. It'll be a pie-fight. Next, step up lower-enlisted pay by 10%, or kill tax burdens on the first 25K of salary. Then, kick pay way up at the E5 level---make that a huge pay raise (incentive) for the additional challenge of leadership. 50% to 100% more than E4s, then step up 10% through the ranks, 10% through the years. As for officers, give LTs and CPTs a modest boost, and let the "first 25K tax-exclusion" give a little bit for all.

BTW--The tax exclusion idea will be on everyone's mind when the troops come home to the pay cuts. I just hope that they haven't budgeted the extra pays---ya know, bought a car they can't afford or got in too deep on a house....it could get ugly. These kids will lose a grand a month in most cases once they leave here.

Talkative today...

Joe M

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 13:20:13 (ZULU)

JR,

If farming is sooo good, why are you not farming?

Rex.

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 14:14:02 (ZULU)

Boys,

This thread concerning how to increase pay to our troops has morphed into an arena about which I have quite a bit of experience. I have to let you all in on a little secret. An income tax increase is not the solution. You see, here in the good ole US, every penny of personal income tax money collected by the government goes straight into paying a part of the interest on the national debt. They theorize that our income tax money pays less than 4% of the interest on the national debt. Not one penny goes toward ANYTHING else. Now the national debt is so complicated that one can only theorize on what it actually is. No one could estimate within a trillion dollars what it is because it changes by billions of dollars everyday. (Sidenote: A very obscure law in the US Code makes it a crime for a citizen of the US to question the national debt.) So no matter how much they decide to raise income taxes, none of that increase will go toward pay increases for anyone, anywhere. A tax increase only serves to reduce everyone's pay because the government produces NOTHING. This is a very important concept to understand. We are paying them to take money from someone who earned it and give it to someone who didn't. As harsh as that sounds, it is the truth. The only thing a tax increase does, is give the federal government more control over your economic life. Why do you think the Income tax laws change so much every year? A Thousand of pages of tax law changes every year. They reduce one deduction and raise another. What does this accomplish? It keeps a certain number of taxpayers within certain parameters. This is called social and economic engineering. It is the only reason for the existence of the income tax. It allows corrupt politicians to retain control of the people through fear and intimidation. They are already so far outside of their Constitutionally limited powers that we are walking the line of being a Socialist state like every other country in the world(read the Patriot Act). Here is a question for you to ponder. If our tax money goes only to pay a very small part of a debt that no one can figure out and we are not allowed to question, then is it really necessary? After all, any other time the federal government needs money, they just print it.

Matt K.
Chattanooga, TN, - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 14:26:31 (ZULU)

Rant coming...

When I joined/was in the service, some one was taxed to pay me my pittance.

My pay was taxed (paying towards my own salary).

Once I 'retired' (changed jobs), my 'retirement/retainer pay' was taxed.

I was paying MORE tax on my new/different/civilian job than I received for retirement/retainer pay.

How many times is the same dollar taxed????

I was stationed at Key West, Florida as a 'full Fleet E-3' and could not get military housing... there was over a year waiting list.

I think all military and military retirement/retainer pay should NOT be taxed, or at least not taxed on the first $XX,XXX.00 of income.

When I transfered to the 'Fleet Reserve' (retired with less than 30 years total service), I had just gone over 20 years of service and my Base pay when up to a whopping $1007.00 (1979). I did not receive 'Sea Pay' unless I was onboard a ship, which was $22.50 per month. I don't remember what BAQ (basic allowance for quarters - what I got for living off base) was, but it wasn't a hell of a lot. Base pay for an E-7 with 20 years service is TRIPLE that now. I also did not get 'Submarine pay' (hazardous duty pay) unless I was on a sub. Now, if you go to shore duty from a sub and intend to return to a sub, you get Sub pay while on shore duty.

Here's a link to current pay scales:

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,30821-mil_status_retired-1,00.html

Rant off

Sharon

Larry J. porter
Boonies of the Panhandle, Texas, U. S. of A!!!! - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 15:02:04 (ZULU)

WARNING: I'm getting returned emails that I didn't send. Some *ss-whipe has my addy. Don't open anything from me unless I post here saying it's coming.

Sorry for the trouble.

Bill

Edited to add: Joe M. you got mail.

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 15:20:33 (ZULU)

Rex,

I would farm, but it either rains too much or not enough.. Ha, don't get too excited about the rant, I have the same tongue in cheek conversation with my best good buddy back home who's family owns more acreage in Beadle and Hand county than the South of Scotland...Not meant to be offensive to farmers or farming, I get a kick out of 'em, and respect what they do for a living..If it wasn't for farmers I wouldn't have anywhere decent to hunt, all that CRP ground ya know, ha...The market and farm policy does need to change, because Brazil and South America will end up the Western world's breadbasket very quickly....That's where corporate farming is staking it's claim..

Pete,

If the EEC levelled the playing field on farm subsidies towards the UK, they couldn't call us ros' bif's anymore..Zee EEC has a plan for distributing zee farming amongst zee Eurozone see, and the UK is not in the running...Remember the audacity of the French after the BSE 'scare' in the UK was considered done and over?? Part of the plan, man...Heck, we've all ready sold out on fishing rights, mining, manufacturing, farming's next...

Dry,

Yeah, I got that impression...

later

JR
Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Scotland - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 17:29:22 (ZULU)

Bill: Nothing--nada--no email. Try again.

Joe M.

joe mahon
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 18:24:13 (ZULU)

Whoops; sorry I forgot the rule about sitting in the poison ivy!

There's another about putting your knee on the cactus.

I still can't call a coyote to save my life this year.

Mites got em all I guess.

I bought a buffalo gun but so far haven't found a buffalo herd either.

Rex; I ain't sure that would work. I was around on a farm before the subsidy. The first one I remember they called, "The Soil Bank". Wheat and Cotton was about the same price today though and everything else has increased 10 fold so you might be right. Only thing I don't quite get is that we are paying CRP for land set aside money to farmers who are irrigating and depleting the water sources at a record rate on other land right beside it and paying jacked up prices for butane to run the engines. And others who have retired on CRP payments...and sold all their machinery after it's written off and still buy some machinery to not farm with.... and all in the name of reducing production. I know if seems to be working for them and I love CRP ground for hunting and lots of other reasons. (keeps the dust down for one). Just don't make a lot of sense to me the way they do it. Stand aside there I wanna fill up my car with that funny colored Diesel Fuel.

Mike I had a uncle (ex navy) who lived down San Pedro in a modest little house and worked for the P.O. He sold it for 2.1 million and retired back here in God's country. You might outta think about that. There ain't no Arizona any more.... or so the song says.

Brogers
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 19:03:29 (ZULU)

"The cav, well maybe those guys ought not be allowed alcohol under any circumstances. "

HEY, WAITAMINIT!

Wadya mean no beer for the Cav! You ain't a communist is ya?!?

CSM, take that man's Stetson!

BIll McCormick
Bristol, Tennessee, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 19:24:18 (ZULU)

Undude,

I'm interested in getting one of those SS10x42M scopes for Kelly's gun. IF they are really made for SWFA and not Tasco, as per SWFA's comment.

If this is true, and any service is needed, the scope would be shipped back to SWFA right?

The world has one more United States MARINE ; )

Jarhead nephew #2 came home Saturday after finishing basic.

In spite of a case of food poisoning, and I think he came home with walking pneumonia (he's at the Doc's office now) he finished.

I'm so proud I could bust!

4i's
Siloam Springs, AR, USA - Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 20:05:16 (ZULU)

Capitalism does not include subsidizing anything.

I can understand some short term funding for national defense interests, but I am against everything else.

There is no 'lobby' out there looking out for me, and I support equal rights for everyone to my entitlement (absolutely nothing)... get hold of your boot straps and start pulling.

Military pay...I think we should start by putting in place a system that sets the Gold Standard of care when the folks that go in harm's way get hurt or killed. Soldiers should go into battle knowing their family will be taken care of should something happen... they should be confident that should they be wounded or crippled while doing their job, that they will get GREAT care and will have the financial support they have earned for their sacrifice.

The same should be done for cops, firemen and anyone else that goes in harm's way in service to the citizens of our nation.

medicjim
Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 20:35:07 (ZULU)

Post deleted.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 00:39:56 (ZULU)

Rex - OK - I'll bite (pun intended) - I beg to differ with your claim -sans analysis - on how eliminating the farm subsidies and price regulations would increase the cost of food. We pay more than we should for our food in two ways.

First - Milk and sugar and other foods have prices SET by the government! That is just plain insane especially when you consider that these prices are up to 3x the world average for these commodities. These price regulations are effectively a food tax that we all pay every time we buy a gallon of milk.

Furthermore the subsidy system is essentially another food tax - the self perpetuating system works like this- prices drop due to overproduction - we pay farmers to over produce further - then prices drop more. The government (taxpayer) picks up the tab. Well - I'd rather pay a fair market price for a chunk of dead cow than to have the government trying to manipulate the supply and demand. Every time the government tries to manipulate the economy it fails and the consumer loses. (Try getting produce in the USSR of the 50s-90's.) So, the government pays the farmers- with our money - we pay the farmers- indirectly paying more for our food.

The market will decide what the right price is. If beef goes up upon being deregulated and de-subsidized then more cattlemen suddenly appear, while fewer people get McD's until the price comes down. Funny how that works.

I say the farmers should join the free market - those of us who are already here will welcome them!

----------------------------------------

NOW - on the issue of paying our troopers more just want to be clear where I stand - I am all for it! I personally would double the salaries of our entire force across the board and increase combat zone pay bonuses 5 fold. These men and women deserve our support - they serve a legitimate government function that is just about the only thing morally sound to take citizen's property to support.

You already know how I'd pay for that.

Hell- a contractor driving a truck in Iraq is making $120,000 per year and pays no tax on it - good for them. They don't have to engage the enemy (on purpose) and can leave when they want. Our troops deserve some parity here.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:04:06 (ZULU)

"Few civilians would put up with hours and working conditions that peace time combat soldiers and Marines take for granted."

Tell that to a forest firefighter after a busy season.

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 01:43:38 (ZULU)

In an earlier post I implied that combat soldiers do hard work over long periods under bad conditions. I withdraw that claim.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:08:41 (ZULU)

CDC did say "Few civilians" not "no civilians".

Guys fighting forest fires are indeed in the same class as grunts in my book.

Not that there needs to be some sort of score rating on how hard-core your job is.

General point CDC was making is still valid. Uniformed servicemen do tougher jobs in harsher conditions than the vast majority of civies.

I recall when I when PCSed to Ft. Livingroom - my first impression of my fellow office workers was that they were pogues complainng about waiting a few minutes for the elevator or that the air conditioning was sub-par.

BTW -didn't take me long to be the same way but at least I know better.

LTChip

LTChip
Old Hangtown, CA, - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:28:06 (ZULU)

Sorry Medicjim and LTChip:

Sorry guys...I take exception that forest fighters have it as bad as a grunt.

The fire is not making a determined effort to kill him; the grunt's enemy is a thinking, sometimes equally skilled top predator with ill intent. That fire lacks most of those characteristics. That fire may get a firefighter here and there---but it wasn't personal; just bid'ness. The enemy, on the other hand, is trying to kill, goes out of his way in fact to kill---and that is a world of difference.

I might see a comparrison with a LEO vs. a psycho---but then, it ain't every day that a freak wants you dead. The enemy seems to always want that while at war...

"Dying is no way to make a living, boy..." I guess the difference to me lies in intent: Can it kill you vs does it really, really, really want to kill you at all costs. To me--I find that it is a difference.

BTW--In 1989 in Idaho, my team and I got pulled out of a river by a CH47 after running down a draw with a the fire ahead of us on both ridges on our left and right. Up til then, firefighting seemed pretty much like hard labor. After, it was a terrifying thing when you felt the breeze hesitate or shift. But it simply ain't the same as having someone shooting at you. That fire screwed up a really fun training opportunity we had with 20th SFG too; that was a great UW scenario while it lasted....

Joe M

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 06:51:40 (ZULU)

I always believed that the average wage(civilain) in the USA was slightly above what it is here in Europe or the UK. I estimate that the average family man( school education, no degree, non specialist, lets say welder, driver, with an aprenticeship or equivalent behind him) here in Germany earns around 2000 euro's per month ( thats $2380 ish).Gross, before all stoppages.and usualy they recieve 13 months salary per year. I figure in the UK the same guy would earn maybe about the same at 330 pounds per week making it about 17000 GBP per year.( how does that compare Jon? Dry? JR?)

A German Army private earns about 1300 euro a month netto($1500)

a Staff Sergeant around 1800 euro netto.($2100)

They will recieve more if sent on operations anywhere in the world.

and from the soldier magazine in the UK:

CONTINUOUS Attitude Surveys throughout 2002-03 indicated that Service personnel were, on balance, satisfied with life in the Armed Forces and particularly appreciated the job satisfaction, job security and responsibility. Important areas of dissatisfaction included the impact of high commitment levels on separation.

While pay generally was considered satisfactory, survey results indicated a level of dissatisfaction in relation to skills, responsibility and hours worked.

MINIMUM WAGE: On average, junior ranks worked 45.8 hours a week in 2002-03. National minimum wage rates would produce pay of £206.10 for those aged 21 and over and £174.04 for under-21s. The minimum weekly pay for privates and equivalents in £250.18, significantly above the national minimum wage. Junior ranks’ rates could fall below the minimum rate, however, were they consistently to work 55 hours or more a week (over 21s) or 65 hours or more (under 21s).

Police Pay: 1 pound is 1.8 dollars approx

Pay

Police pay is reviewed every year. Here are the figures for 2003/4:

Constable's Pay

Completed years of service in rank

Annual salary with effect

from 1st April 2003

On commencing service 19,227

On completion of initial training period 21,462

2 22,707 (a)

3 23,298

4 24,096

5 24,852

6 25,650

7 26,382

8 27,039

9 27,903

10 28,914

11 29,589

12 30,186 (b)

(a) All officers move to this salary point on completion of two years' service as a constable.

(b) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competence related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Sergeant’s Pay

Completed years of service in rank

Annual salary with effect

from 1st April 2003

0 30,186

1 31,221

2 32,268

3 32,958

4 33,927 (a)

(a) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competency related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Inspector’s Pay

The pay scale for an Inspector ranges from £38,679 (£40,374 in London) for a newly promoted Inspector to £41,952 (a) (£43,659) (a) for an Inspector with three completed years of service in rank.

(a) Officers who have been on this point for a year will have access to a competence related threshold payment of £1,002 a year.

Promotion

Our promotion policy provides everyone with the same opportunities and if you’re ambitious, we can help you move up the career ladder with training and encouragement at every level. We also provide a High Potential Development Scheme, providing a fast-track route to some of the most challenging work within the police service.

more on our High Potential Development scheme

Pensions

Our pensions scheme offers generous benefits, with the option of transferring previous pensions to our scheme. It’s also worth noting that police officers are contracted out of the earnings related part of the State Pension Scheme, so National Insurance contributions are paid at the lower, contracted out rate.

more on Pensions

Flexible Working Conditions

The normal working week is 40 hours on a shift basis. Shift patterns vary between forces. All ranks below superintendent are entitled to two rest days a week and compensation if required to work over those two days. They are also entitled to leave or compensation in lieu of public holidays.

Nurses:

4. NURSES PAY AND BENEFITS

Nurses Pay Scales from April 2003

With effect from 1 April 2003 national salary scales for nurses, midwives and health visitors will be increased by 3.225%.

Pay Rates Outside of London

Grades in italics indicates inclusion of discretionary points (which are payable beyond the standard upper limit)

Grade A (Age 18+) Auxiliary & Assistants

From £10,050 to £12,615

Grade B Auxiliary & Assistants

From £11,825 to £13,920

Grade C Enrolled & Auxiliary

From £13,465 to £16,525

Grade D Newly Qualified Nurses

From £16,525 to £18,240

Grade E Experienced Staff Nurse (Midwives normally start at this grade)

From £17,660 to £21,325

Grade F Senior Nurse

From £19,585 to £24,455

Grade F Senior Nurse

From £24,905 to £25,360

Grade G Sister/Charge Nurse (Health Visitors normally start at this grade)

From £23,110 to £27,190

Grade G Senior/Charge Nurse

From £27,655 to £28,125

Grade H Nurse Specialist

From £25,815 to £30,005

Grade H Nurse Specialist

From £30,480 to £30,960

Grade H Modern Matron

From £25,815 to £30,960

Grade I Nurse Specialist

From £28,590 to £32,860

Grade I Nurse Specialist

From £33,340 to £33,820

Grade I Modern Matron

From £28,590 to £33,820

Nurse/Midwife/Health Visitor Consultants

From £35,035 to £48,185

London Allowances

Inner London

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £3,333 pa

Outer London

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £2,604 pa

Fringe Zone

All staff in clinical grading structure - grades A to I and consultant grade posts - £729 pa

Cost of Living Supplement

From 1st April 2002 all qualified nurses (grade C and above) and AHPs working in London and the South East will benefit from Cost of Living Supplements. Eligible staff working in London receive an additional payment of 4% of basic salary, up to a maximum of £1000. Outside London eligible staff receive 2.5% of salary, up to a maximum of £600.

Fire Service:

Firefighter £15,831 - £20,121

Leading Firefighter £21,546 - £22,434

Sub Officer £22,092 - £23,832

Station Officer £25,629 - £27,639

Assistant Divisional Officer £27,012 - £28,535

Divisional Officer III £28,932 - £31,023

Divisional Officer II £30,720 - £34,056

Divisional Officer I £33,933 - £36,375

Senior Divisional Officer £36,528 - £39,402

so if we take a private soldier, a PC, a fire fighter and a Nurse. all trained. maybe 2 years service we have

Soldier maybe 14000-15000 GBP

PC 21000 GBP

Fireman 17000-18000

Nurse 18000

are our soldiers under paid? well if they do anything but sit in an office and push buttons or sweep the parade square then i'd say yep you bet..

for the unsociable hours and the shit not to mention the possible danger in varying degrees that all 4 of these professions have to put up with, then i'd say we should be looking at cutting what we pay politicians drasticaly and paying the people who realy SERVE the Community and country a wage that reflects what they do for us.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 09:21:17 (ZULU)

P.S.

don't forget that as a soldier you will also be called upon to cover for other career/job types when the others go on strike to demand better pay and conditions, but you are unable to go on strike, or to demand anything.

In my time as a soldier I :

Covered as a fireman when the fire Brigade had a local strike.

Covered as an Ambulance driver/paramedic when the ambulance service held a national strike.

Covered as a prison officer when the prison service went on strike.

Covered refuse collection when the local dustbin men went on strike.

Re-enforced police numbers policing certain demonstrations, marches etc.

Re-enforced Fire Service numbers during floods, forest fires, hurricanes/storms. Provided security at international airports and ferry Terminals.

Add all that to getting shot at, bieng separated from family and friends for long periods of time, not knowing when your next meal is going to be some of the time, not knowing when your next day off will be, not knowing when you will actually see family again,excessive working hours, poor accomodation, sub standard food, guard/security duties, adverse weather conditions, working out side, often with poor equipment..

its no wonder that they have retention and recruitment problems.

I joined as a patriot, left as a sceptic, and sure as hell wouldn't put my kneck on the line these days for what they offer in terms of pay , i was never there for the pay though, i had other reasons, i just wouldn't stick my kneck out carrying out the orders of a Government and Politicians who expect me, whilst ensuring the freedoms and liberty of citizens of foriegn countries, to put up with my freedoms and liberties bieng attacked, restricted and outlawed at home, whilst i am away serving. Then when i eventualy come home i find that i am classed as a second class citizen, i can join the queue for housing, behind all the immigrants, unemployed, single mums and drug addicts, i can't claim any benefits because i may recieve a miserable army pension or have recieved a small lump sum upon retirement, i may find it difficult to find employment because i have been bypassed in experience and qualifications by my civilian counterpart.

But then i'm just bitter abd twisted, and if they expect young men and women to serve thier country then the country should provide something in return.some thing more than they are recieving nowadays..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 09:56:11 (ZULU)

4 i's,

Congrats on the 2nd nephew, hope he's feelin better today.

Pete L.

Did ya get the Titanium or Stainless 700? I've put another hundred or so rounds thru the Titanium one and am very pleased. It appears to even cool a little faster with the deep fluted barrel. The recoil has become a non-issue. It has replaced the LTR as Bear rifle for this season.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:02:10 (ZULU)

Ref: AR-10

A while back George Gardener built me an AR-10. I've just now gotten around to shooting it and learning it. It is a real pleasure to use. It's accurate to about .75 moa or a little better and seems to function pretty well. I've been using Lapua 185 grain match ammunition and the muzzle velocity averages 2,520. My computer tells me that with a BC of around .510 the bullets should stay supersonic to 1,000 yards. I've got an adjustable sloped base on the rifle with an M3LR so there is over 50 minutes of elevation beyond my 100 yard zero. This Saturday I'll shoot the second relay at the 1,000 yard club with it to see how it does "at the grand". (The first relay is reserved for my 6.5x.284 which is also a GAP rifle.)

Ref: Travel

I'm back on the road again next week and the week after I'll be in Nashville and Roanoke. If there are any Rosterfarians in those locations that would like to hook up for dinner and shooting talk contact me.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:22:38 (ZULU)

Ref BBC news web site Hay look we get to live longer than you but earn $430502 less in our lifetime (lucky Sods)

This is what is listed but I belive all a little low on wages

USA

Population: 291 million

Life expectancy: 74 years (men), 80 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: US $34,280 (World Bank, 2001)

Population: 59.2 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 76 years (men), 81 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $25,120 (World Bank, 2001)

Germany

Population: 82.5 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 75 years (men), 81 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $23,560 (World Bank, 2001)

France

Population: 60.1 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 75 years (men), 83 years (women) (UN)

GNI per capita: US $22,730 (World Bank, 2001)

Iraq

Population: 25.1 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 59 years (men), 62 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: n/a

Saudi Arabia

Population: 24.2 million (UN, 2003)

Life expectancy: 71 years (men), 74 years (women) (UN)

Average annual income: US $8,460 (World Bank, 2001)

Dry
UK - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 11:45:43 (ZULU)

Attempts to make comparisons of salaries or wages between areas, even those within the same country, much less between countries, need to take more than just the raw numbers into account. For a comparison to be valid, one must also consider at least tax rates and cost of living. A given amount in Texas, for example, will buy much more than it will in California, where real estate prices and taxes are higher. Tax rates in Europe tend to be higher than in the U.S., while in Saudi Arabia there aren't any. And GNI per capital cannot be compared to average annual income.

Lindy
The south shore of Clear Lake, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:23:03 (ZULU)

John(acehigh), i handed over the marlin this morning, sad to see it go.. and i pick up the stainless remington this evening, sold the marlin for the same as i bought the remington. now if i can get the damn auto feed on the lathe to work again i may just flute the bolt, the spiral flute is just another multi start thread..

Dry, well i am above avareage earnings at least.. but i only earn 3/4 here in kraut land of what i would earn doing the same job for a the Govt or TV company in Holland or the UK. I stay here and earn ten grand less a year because there are no damn pigs or deer in holland that are huntable worth mentioning,and Holland would be nearer home than where i work now. and if i worked in the UK i would have to bloody fly back and forth to Germany to get home to the family. and besides i like schnitzels and weizen bier.

I went to the local authority yesterday to de register the marlin and register the remington, when all the paper work shuffeling was done i asked for the form to apply for special permission to possess a moderator, the lady in the office looked at me as if i was osama bin laden and flatly refused to hand over the damn paper work for me to apply, then i went on to explain why i wanted a moderator, she had a look of horror on her face, she then said, you can apply for a moderator but i'm telling you now the application will be refused so its a waste of money, we have had orders from above not to pass any applications for possession of moderators, and once you apply you will your name will become highlighted and you will be constantly scrutinised and if ever there is a problem they will be on you like a ton of bricks, all because YOU applied for a moderator..

but thats ridiculouse i said.. now if you refuse my application then when i eventualy have a hearing loss from hunting without hearing protection, cos we all know you need all your senses to hunt, so hunting with ear defenders is impossible, the i will be able to sue this department for my hearing loss?

No No NO, this is Germany she says..

ah so Germany isn't part of the same Europe as the UK then because this European legislation on noise pollution and health and safety is where the use of moderators in the UK is coming from, says I.. or are you telling me that the Germans authorities are cherry picking bits of legislation to suit thier selves?

no answer.

The problem with the German authorities is that they watch to many James Bond films and have no idea what a moderated rifle sounds like.. have you ever fired a moderated fire arm? i asked..

blank look..

have you ever fired a firearm?

well eer no..

typical i said..

she the got on the defensive and had a go at me about wasting her time and that moderators where totaly in appropriate for shooting.

Eh?? eh?

i left the office with a disgusted look on my face..

burocrats and politicians..

who needs em..

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:38:01 (ZULU)

FYI re: 185gr.-12.0 gram Scenar

I just weighed the first eleven out of a new box of 100, out of curiosity, not to actually sort them, or so I thought.

2-185.0

3-185.2

5-185.3

1-185.4

Now I am tempted to sort 'em! One of the 185.2's was fluctuating between .1 and .2 but from Lapua I was suprised at the variance.

John

Acehigh
Home again, IN, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:46:00 (ZULU)

Ref: Bullet weights

John, are you using a digital scale? Beware Hysteresis!!! The affordable digital scales can be pathological liars.

Kevin R. Mussack
Clifton Springs, New York, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 12:59:13 (ZULU)

Joe, posted..."The fire is not making a determined effort to kill him;"

HE's close enough to be technically accurate but After a few "firefights" I wonder if that statement is totally acceptable but it's technically accurate non-the-less. I haven't checked lately but on a percentage body count the highest risk job in the U.S.A. including soldiers fighting on foreign soil was a Volunteer Firefighter and this was way before 911. Maybe that's why they call these war skirmishes "Firefights". Either one is scary enough for me. By the way I think we are running a close race between 911 firemen lost and Soldiers in Iraq but the soldiers are winning fast if we don't catch on over there. Being an EMT or beat patrolman in some of these garden spot places in this country would make me wish I was back above timberline if I had to do that one too. I'd prefer not to go to a Restaurant in Israel either if I Planned on doing the rest of those 74 years.

Kevin' I hope that "inferior equipment" gets you by in those shoots! Good luck anyway! Psst.... (he's probably the one to bet on!)

I got wonder which seminar that Oakley gal attended or who taught Wild Bill Hickcock to shoot. Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson probably were just lucky that their opponents didn't have a couple of weeks training at Gunpoint Academy. (just kidding). Don't nobody get their britches in a bind. Schools are wonderful, I went to one for a couple of years and there I learned to read, write and become an Internet pest.

Seen the Alamo yet?

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 13:04:48 (ZULU)

All -

Just got a Call from Bruce Robinson (Mr. MildotMaster) on the road. He says he will be hard to get hold of for the next week or so. He said to have anyone that needs to get in touch him - to get hold of me (Ken) either via email or phone. I can get his contact info to you.

Take care all -

Prayers for the troops and troopers out there.

Ken Hunter
Nokesville, Vaq, USofA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 13:58:43 (ZULU)

Joe M: Once on Crossfire, Pat Buchanan and Barney Frank's sister agreed that "...there's nothing to walking around with a rifle...". Their total military experience consisted of watching a couple of reruns of "Combat!"

This becomes a bigger d**k contest with dog-catchers.

Forget it.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:03:28 (ZULU)

Bill, I bought it on DVD. The local merchants have an uncanny knack at piracy....

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:32:04 (ZULU)

Pete: Census Country? Now that is a new twist, even for here!

Heheh

joe mahon
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 14:34:12 (ZULU)

Joe Mahon, please reread my post, especially the EXACT quote I pulled from CDC's post. Please note the words "peace time".

Soldier pay.... kill off a few pork programs and double every enlisted man's pay...LtChip nailed it. Mail the surplus back to the folks that paid too much in the first place. Done, no arguement from me... money well spent.

PeteR - Firefighters in the US cannot go on strike (at least in New Jersey). Volunteers are even subject to legal action if they fail to show up for fires en-mass.

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 15:16:39 (ZULU)

Jim, the military cannot strike and i ain't sure about the Police, i don't think they can either, but Nurses/medical staff, Fire Service, Prison Officers and every one else can.

The ambulance strike was was a hoot, mostly, got to stay in a hotel and even had a sundries allowance.. hell i still have the blue flashing liught from the ambulance i drove, squaddies and souveneers eh..

now on the opposite side of the coin, when the prison officers went on strike we ended up guarding prisoners in a make shift jail, that was once a prisoner of war camp, the " inmates had 4 men to a room and a common room with a TV, a shower and a toilet between 8 men, we squaddies where in tents and huts, 2 toilets (1 portable) and 2 showers between 60 blokes and no TV. The policemen who where drafted in where put up in hotels localy and recieved extra pay.. the soldiers always seem to get the shitty end of the stick and the thin end of the wedge.

Pete

Peter Lincoln
D - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 15:47:20 (ZULU)

So Disney's PC version of "The Alamo" is a hit? Leaving out Santa Anna's declaring himself Emperor is like leaving the tequila out of the margarita. Revisionist history makes me tired.

Bill: "...I learned to read,(and) write...".

I hate to be the one to break it to you.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 16:22:15 (ZULU)

CDC; Hell,it was only the second grade what do you expect? I apologize for your great ability to understand everything in the world except the words of a Redneck. My wife signs the checks what the hell do I want with a 3rd grade education? We Rednecks were code talkers in the last war didn't you hear about that?

Brogers
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 16:32:32 (ZULU)

OFFICIAL 2004 DNC CONVENTION PROGRAM (for anybody that cares)

6:00pm - Opening flag burning ceremony.

6:30pm - Anti-war rally no. 1.

6:40pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

7:00pm - Tribute theme to France.

7:10pm - Collect offerings for al-Zawahri defense fund.

7:20pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast

7:25pm - Tribute theme to Spain.

7:45pm - Anti-war rally no. 2. (Moderated by Michael Moore)

8:00pm - John Kerry presents one side of the issues

8:25pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

8:30pm - Terrorist appeasement workshop.

9:00pm - Gay marriage ceremony.

9:30pm - * Intermission *

10:00pm - Flag burning ceremony no. 2.

10:15pm - Re-enactment of Kerry's fake medal toss.

10:30pm - Cameo by Dean 'Yeeearrrrrrrg!'

10:40pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

10:50pm - Pledge of allegiance to the UN.

11:00pm - Double gay marriage ceremony.

11:15pm - Maximizing Welfare workshop.

11:20pm - John Kerry presents the other side of the issues

11:30pm - 'Free Saddam' pep rally.

11:59pm - Ted Kennedy proposes a toast.

12:00am - Nomination of Democrat candidate.

----------------

>>>MK4, HA! I like it: "Gays, God and Guns." I’ve had the same “talk” with my congressman. Got a nice reply back this last time, he might have “gotten the message”. Still, it’s actions that matter, not words. We’ll see.<<<<<<<<<

The upcoming election will the ugliest yet. Not much of a prediction but a safe one. We need to start getting in the "battle" mentality of helping to get the vote out. The liberals will be pulling out their heaviest artillery yet (as if they knew what that meant).

----------------

On another note: I was flipping through the CBS, NBC,& ABC stations and stopped long enough to see an Army Colonel (not sure of his rank but just a guess) tell the news camera in regards to reports coming out of Iraq; "Turn the channel, turn the channel, turn the channel!"

So I did. Was good advice.

Oh yeah, "God Bless Fox News."

-------

Lito,

Leave them SASSy wimmen alone and post a few ;))))))

Mk4
Texas, Remember 9-11, United States of America - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:00:58 (ZULU)

Fox news is reporting heavy enemy calualties near Falluja...

Marines fought fierce battles Monday and Tuesday with insurgents in Karma, a village outside Fallujah. Some 100 gunmen were killed in battles in palm groves and over canals that were so intense that wounded Marines were sent to rejoin the fight.

"They ran in there with bandages and all," said Col. B.P. McCoy, commander of the 3rd Battalion.

Marines came under two heavy ambushes Tuesday, the best coordinated and largest guerrilla operations in days, said Capt. James Edge. Two Marines were killed Tuesday and two Monday, the military said.

Scott Smith
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:03:14 (ZULU)

Kevin Mussack - email sent through SC, no attachments

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:13:02 (ZULU)

This is tedious. If I ever post here again, I'll - at no charge - give Bill my .308 Winchester.

Bye.

Update: He replied that he had plenty of guns and didn't want it. After I foolishly posted again he appears to have edited out that statement.

Cute, huh?

I am mortified to have been involved in this conversation.

CDC'
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:26:31 (ZULU)

OK, Since you asked. I will be the first to admit that the farm subsidy program needs to be fixed. Question is how to do it? The program was originally put in place to prevent the nations farmers from all planting corn one year and all planting cotton next year because of the "Free Market". Since production cycles of crops are typically one year long, farmers don't have the luxury of changing their production schedules based on "Quarterly Reports"! In the 20's, the crop production would swing from on extreme to the other, one year beans, one year corn etc. Big brother says "we can fix this!" The subsidy program was started to compensate farmers for growing a balance of crops, not just the one that was bringing the best return at the time. Along with the subsidy came control of how much of each crop you were allowed to plant, all in the name of evening out the supply, and thus stabilizing the crop prices. At least that is how it got started. In 1973 wheat was sellng at $2.35 a bushell, the combine we used cost $8,000.00 used, diesel was .15 a gallon and a loaf of bread cost .15 to .25. The 230 acres of wheat land produced about 45 to 50 bushells per acre dryland on an average year. In 2003, wheat sold for $3.85 per bushell, the combine cost $187,000.00 in 2001, diesel cost $1.65 per gallon, a loaf of bread costs $1.50 to $2.50. And the 230 acres still makes abot 40 bushells to the acre dryland , in a good year. All of this is assuming that there is adequate rainfall, no hail, and no insect problem that year.

Or look at cattle, beef sold for .15 to .25 a pound on the hoof in 1973. Today beef is selling for .85 to .95 a pound on the hoof at any local auction you care to name. AND THERE ARE NO SUBSIDIES ON CATTLE!!! Ya'll do the math!!

Between foreign imports of beef and produce, escalating costs of fuel and labor, and especially equipment, the subsidy program has degenerated into basically a bribe to entice farmers to say in the business. In 1973 farmers were about 4% of the population, now they are hovering at 1% or so. Given the current outlook US farming could easily go the way of US manufacturing, OFFSHORE!!

Don't have all the answers, just know and see what is happening. But the US still pays the least for groceries of any country in the world!!!

But, since this is not Farmingcountry.com, a shooting related item. Had about 40 turkeys in the yard yesterday AM. Since it is spring turkey season, and there seemed to be numerous toms in the bunch, I promptly eliminated one from the gene pool. Man, fresh turkey breast strips, chicken fried with gravy!!!!!

Farmrant off!

Rex.

Rex Vaughn
Spur, Texas, U.S.A. - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 17:51:38 (ZULU)

Rex,

You have to purchase a $187,000 combine to harvest 9200 bushels of wheat on 230 acres? How many days per year is it in use?

medicjim
Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 18:49:19 (ZULU)

LtChip,

To directly address your Questions.

1. There are no subsidies to cattlemen from the Government. I sell cattle bi weekly at auction for .85 to .95 a pound on the hoof. You pay $5.00 to $8.00 a pound in the store. Where is the difference? If I was getting $10.00 a pound on the hoof, you would now pay about $80.00 per pound if the margins to the middlemen did not change. The margins to the middlemen don't change, regardless of the cattle market. During the Madcow scare a while back, the price of beef dropped to .50 a pound, did your store prices go down? I did not think so. US beef is the cheapest in the world. Ask the Japanese or the Germans. Or the UK. Argentine beef is cheaper on the hoof, but not by the time you buy it at the store.

2. Sugar beets and cane sugar are 90% imported from South America and Central America. Who sets the prices on imports? Not the farmers!

The milk industry, I have no close association to and cannot comment, except to say, ever buy a gallon of milk in Europe? And the farming in Europe is 100% subsidized.

Just so you know, there are only 3 beef processing entities in the US. They control the price of beef in the store, not the cattlemen. They also have the buying power to somewhat affect the auction price. I have bid my cattle up and brought them back home many times to avoid taking a huge loss on them at auction.

The problem as I see it are the long lead times involved in crop production. Lets say that 50% of all farmers decide to plant nothing but corn next year, because in our open market, corn was $15.00 a bushell last year. Now upon harvest, almost a year later, corn has dropped to $2.00 a bushell due to overproduction. About half of those farmers go out of business due to losses, because it cost $6.00 a bushell to produce. Nation wide , there are only 75% of the farmers working compared to the year before. A couple of cycles like this and soon there are not enough farmers to produce the basics. The govt knows that food supply is the key to stable population, it is in their best interest to keep it stable. Problem is, since the subsidyprogram started on crop prices, no one subsidized the tractor mfgs, or the petroleum mfgs, or any of the normal suppliers to the farmers. Income from crops stabilized, expenses did not. How do you make up the difference?

Long story short, if the subsidys were pulled to day, there would be no shortage of food for a while, there is too much production and reserve for that, but then prices at the store would escalate beyond what most people could pay. If farmers were getting what it cost them to produce plus a margin for living, and the PROCESSORS continue to get their cut, the prices at the store would be out of sight. True, if people quit buying, then market forces would bring the prices down. Problem is , people would get hungry and revolt before this market cycle evened out. But then you are back to the one year production cycle, if the food runs out in the winter, you are still 6 to 8 months away from production, even if there is no drought!! So now you are relying on our buddies the europeans to help us out!! Or the South Americans!! Good Luck!!

Rex

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 19:02:58 (ZULU)

Medicjim,

No, we couldn't buy one at that price. The old one was 40 years old and guess what, parts are no longer available. So we did like 80% of small farmers and paid someone else to cut the wheat this year. Another $6.00 per acre expense. Of course, the harvesters HAD a $187,000.00 combine and it took them 20 hours to cut that field. It used to take us about a week wtih repairs etc. Farming has become a numbers game and economies of scale rule the day. Our operation has become what is known as a "HOBBY" farm. What we produce on this acreage just about pays the land taxes. Everyone involved works off the farm to pay the bills. If you want a real eye opener, just go on down the the local cattle auction, and then go by the local farm equipment dealer and ask a few questions!! The price disparity will astound you.

Sorry for the bandwidth guys, just wanted to rant a bit! No more Farmingcountry!

Rex.

Rex
Spur, Texas, USA - Wedne